THE
Parliamentary Debates
FROM
THE YEAR
1803
TO THE PRESENT TIME:
FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED
"THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY OF ENGLAND FROM THE EARLIEST
PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803."
PUBLISHED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF
T. C. HANSARD.
VOL. VI.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
FROM
THE TWENTY-FIRST DAY OF JANUARY
TO
THE SIXTH DAY OF MAY
1806.
LONDON:
PRINTED FOR LONGMAN, HURST, REES, ORME, AND BROWN; CRADOCK AND JOY;
J. BOOKER; J. BOOTH; J. RICHARDSON; BLACK, PARRY, AND CO.; E. JEFFERY;
J. HATCHARD; J. RIDGWAY; BUDD AND CALKIN; J. RODWELL; R. H. EVANS;
AND
T. C. HANSARD, PRINTER, PETERBOROUGH-COURT, FLEET-STREET.
1812.
THIS BOOK
IS TO BE PRESERVED IN
THE JOURNAL OFFICE
OF
THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
ADVERTISEMENT.
THE present Volume comprises the period between the 21st of January and the 6th of May, 1806 In the pages immediately succeeding the Table of Contents, will be found correct Lists of the Ministry as they stood in January and April; together with a List of the Members of the House of Commons. The Appendix contains: 1. Copies of the Treaties, &c. presented, by His Majesty's Command, to both Houses of Parliament: 2. The Twelfth Report of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry: 3. The First Report of the Commissioners for Revising and Digesting the Civil Affairs of the Navy: 4. Report from the Committee appointed to draw up Articles of Impeachment against Henry Lord Viscount Melville: and, 5. The First Report of the Commissioners of Military Enquiry.—The Seventh Volume, which will close the Debates of the Session, will contain the Financial Accounts, and other Documents connected with the Proceedings in Parliament during the Session.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
HOUSE OF LORDS.
1806. Jan. 21. The Lords Commissioners' Speech—The earl of Essex, lord Carleton, earl Cowper, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, lord Mulgrave, lord Grenville,
1
Conduct of Judge Fox—The marquis of Abercorn, lord Carleton
12
1806. Jan. 22. Impeachment of lord Melville—Lord Melville
22
1806. Jan. 24. Vote of Thanks to the Navy—Lord Walsingham, lord Holland, the duke of Norfolk, the lord chancellor
28
1806. Jan. 27. Vote of Thanks to the Navy—Lord Hawkesbury, the duke of Clarence
35
1806. Jan. 28. Continental War—Lord Mulgrave
73
Vote of Thanks to the Navy—Lord Hawkesbury, duke of Clarence, earl Spencer, lord Hawkesbury, lord Hood, lord Sidmouth, lord Hawkesbury, duke of Clarence, duke of Norfolk, earl St. Vincent
75
1806. Jan. 31. Continental War—Lord Mulgrave
111
1806. Feb. 4. Continental War—Lord Mulgrave
143
1806. Feb. 13. Witnesses' Indemnity Bill—Lord Hawkesbury, lord Holland
166
1806. Feb. 17. Witnesses' Indemnity Bill—Lord Eldon, lord Holland, lord Eldon, lord Holland, the lord chancellor (Erskine), lord Eldon
170
1806. Feb. 24. Conduct of Judge Fox—Lord Eldon, marquis of Abercorn, lord Grenville
176
Earl St. Vincent's Annuity—Lord Grenville
177
Lord Ellenborough's Seat in the Cabinet—The earl of Bristol, lord Grenville, earl of Bristol
178
Witnesses' Indemnity Bill—Lord Eldon, lord Holland, lord Eldon
179
1806. Feb. 27. Witnesses' Indemnity Bill. Opinion of the Judges—lord chief justice Mansfield, lord Auckland, lord Eldon, lord Holland, earl Stanhope, the lord chancellor, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Radnor, lord Eldon
222
1806. Feb. 28. Witnesses' Indemnity Bill. Opinion of the Judges—Mr. baron Sutton, mr. baron Graham, mr. justice Chambre, mr. justice Le Blanc, mr. justice Grose, mr. justice Lawrence, mr. justice Rooke
234
1806. March 1. Witnesses' Indemnity Bill. Opinion of the Judges—Mr. baron Thompson, mr. justice Heath, lord chief baron Macdonald, lord chief justice Mansfield, earl Stanhope, lord Eldon, the lord chancellor, lord Ellenborough, earl Stanhope
244
1806. March 3. Conduct of Judge Fox—Marquis of Abercorn, lord Grenville, lord Auckland, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Buckinghamshire, marquis of Buckingham
249
Lord Ellenborough's Seat in the Cabinet—Earl of Bristol, lord St. John, lord Eldon, earl of Carlisle, lord Boringdon, lord Sidmouth, lord Mulgrave, earl of Caernarvon, lord Eldon, lord Hawkesbury, lord Holland, lord Mulgrave, lord Holland, lord Grenville, the lord chancellor
253
1806. March 4. Witnesses' Indemnity Bill—Lord Holland, lord Eldon, the lord chancellor
342
1806. March 7. Witnesses' Declaratory Bill.—The lord chancellor, lord Eldon
360
Witnesses' Indemnity Bill—Lord Holland, lord Eldon
362
1806. March 10. Insolvent Debtors—Lord Holland, earl of Moira, the lord chancellor
368
1806. March 11. Witnesses' Liability Bill.—The lord chancellor, earl Stanhope, the lord chancellor, earl Stanhope, lord Auckland
401
1806. March 12. Witnesses' Declaratory Bill—Lord Eldon, earl Stanhope, the lord chancellor, earl Stanhope, lord Holland, lord Eldon, earl Stanhope
421
1806. March 13. Impeachment of Lord Melville—Lord Auckland
426
1806. March 17. Woollen Manufacture Suspension Bill—Earl Spencer, lord Auckland, lord Grenville
449
Discovery of Truth Bill—Earl Stanhope, lord Ellenborough
450
1806. March 18. Witnesses' Declaratory Bill—Lord Ellenborough, the lord chancellor
483
1806. March 19. Woollen Manufacturers' Suspension Bill
485
Witnesses' Declaratory Bill—Lord Ellenborough, the lord chancellor, earl Stanhope
486
1806. March 21. Witnesses' Declaratory Bill—Lord Eldon, the lord chancellor, lord Eldon
502
1806. March 24. Impeachment of Lord Melville—Lord Melville
522
1806. March 25. Vote of Thanks to Admiral Duckworth, &c.—Lord Grenville, the duke of Norfolk, earl of Romney, lord Grenville, earl of Romney
529
1806. March 27. Impeachment of lord Melville—Lord Grenville, earl Stanhope
557
1806. March 31. Military Establishments of the Country—Earl Camden, lord Grenville, earl Camden, lord Hawkesbury, lord Grenville, earl of Rosslyn, lord Hawkesbury
590
American Intercourse Bill—Lord Holland, lord Auckland, duke of Montrose, lord Sheffield, lord Holland, duke of Montrose, lord Grenville, lord Auckland
592
1806. April 17. American Intercourse Bill—Lord Auckland, lord Hawkesbury, lord Holland
767
1806. April 21. King's Message relating to Prussia
806
Administration of Justice in Scotland—Lord Grenville, duke of Montrose
807
American Intercourse Bill—Lord Holland, duke of Montrose
808
Impeachment of lord Melville—Lord Walsingham, lord Auckland, earl of Radnor
809
1806. April 23. King's Message relating to Prussia—Lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury lord Mulgrave
881
1806. April 24. American Intercourse Bill—Lord Sheffield; lord Holland
900
Impeachment of Lord Melville—Lord Walsingham, earl of Radnor
901
Insolvent Debtors' Bill—Lord Ellenborough, earl of Moira, lord Holland, lord Eldon
901
1806. April 28. Impeachment of lord Melville—Lord Auckland, duke of Norfolk, lord Auckland, lord Eldon, lord Hawkesbury, the lord chancellor, duke of Norfolk
927
1806. April 29. Witnesses' Declaratory Bill—Lord Hawkesbury, lord Eldon, the lord chancellor, lord Hawkesbury
950
Scarcity of Corn—Earl Stanhope, lord Ellenborough, earl Stanhope, lord Ellenborough, earl Stanhope, earl of Moira, lord Auckland
952
1806. April 30. Beckwith's Estate Bill—The duke of Norfolk, bishop of St. Asaph, lord Eldon, bishop of Lincoln, lord Ellenborough, lord Holland, earl Spencer, the lord chancellor
958
1806. May 6. American Intercourse Bill—Lord Sheffield, duke of Montrose, earl of Lauderdale, lord Mulgrave, the lord chancellor, duke of Montrose, earl of Caernarvon, duke of Clarence, earl Camden, lord Holland, lord Hawkesbury, lord Auckland, lord Grenville, lord Eldon, lord Sheffield
1031
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
1806. Jan. 21. The Lords Commissioners' Speech—The speaker, lord Francis Spencer, mr. Ainslie, lord Henry Petty, mr.Fox, lord Castlereagh, mr. Windham
13
Additional Force Bill—Mr. Sheridan, lord Castlereagh
21
1806. Jan. 22. Impeachment of Lord Melville—Mr. Whitbread
24
Marquis Wellesley's Answer to the Vote of Thanks
25
Petition from Berks against the Additional Force Bill—Mr. C. Dundas
25
1806. Jan. 24. Impeachment of Lord Melville—Mr. Whitbread
30
Funeral Honours to mr. Pitt—Mr. H. Lascelles, lord Castlereagh, mr. Fox
30
1806. Jan. 25. Committee of Supply—Mr. Grey, lord Castlereagh, mr. Fox, lord Castlereagh, mr. Grey
32
1806. Jan. 27. Affairs of India—Mr. Paull, mr. W. Keene, mr. Paull, sir T. Metcalfe, mr. Francis, mr. Paull, mr. Wallace, mr. Paull
36
Funeral Honours to mr. Pitt—Mr. H. Lascelles, the marquis of Titchfield, lord Folkestone, lord Lovaine, mr. I. H. Browne, mr. H. Addington, mr. W. Smith, mr. Pytches, sir R. Buxton, the marquis of Douglas, general Tarleton, earl Temple, mr. Windham, mr. R. Ryder, mr. G. Ponsonby, mr. Rose, mr. Fox, lord Castlereagh, mr. Wilberforce, sir R. Williams
41
1806. Jan. 28. Conduct of Earl St. Vincent—Mr. Jeffery, mr. Tierney, the speaker, mr. Jeffery, admiral Markham, mr. P. Moore, the attorney-general, mr. serjeant Best, sir W. Milner, mr. Jeffery, sir W. Young, mr. Tierney, mr. Jeffery, the speaker, mr. Jeffery, mr. W. Dickenson jun.
82
Continental War—Lord Castlereagh, mr. Fox, mr. Grey, lord Castlereagh, mr. Fox, lord Castlereagh, mr. Wickham, lord Castlereagh
90
Vote of Thanks to the Navy, &c.—Lord Castlereagh, mr. Sheridan, mr. Baker, lord Castlereagh, mr. Fox, lard Castlereagh, mr. Fox, mr. Grey, lord Castlereagh, mr. Grey, lord Castlereagh, general Grosvenor
97
Committee of Supply
107
1806. Jan. 29. Affairs of India—Mr. Paull, mr. Wallace, mr. Paull
108
Army Estimates—The secretary at war
111
1806. Jan. 31. Irish Population Bill—Mr. James Fitzgerald
113
Army Estimates—The secretary at war, sir John Wrottesley, the secretary at war
114
1806. Feb. 1. Affairs of India—Mr. Wallace, mr. Paull, mr. Wallace, mr. Paull, mr. Wallace
118
1806. Feb. 3. Monument to the Memory of Marquis Cornwallis—Lord Castlereagh, mr. Grant mr. Francis, mr. Windham, mr. Wilberforce, mr. O'Hara, mr. Huddleston, mr. Prinsep, mr Fox
120
Payment of mr. Pitt's debts—Mr. Cartwright, mr. Bootle, mr. Windham, mr. G. Ponsonby, lord Folkestone, admiral Hervey, mr. W. Smith, mr. Rose, mr. Manning, mr. Cumming, mr. Ellison the marquis of Douglas, mr. Fox, mr. Canning, mr. C. Wynne, mr. Canning, mr. Fox, mr. Huddleston
128
Auditorship of the Exchequer—Mr. Fox, the speaker, mr. Fox, the speaker, the attorney-general, mr. Fox, mr. Rose, the speaker
140
1806. Feb. 4. Malt Duty Bill—Mr. Harrison, mr. S. Bourne, mr. Patteson, mr. Fuller, mr. Rose, mr. Patteson, the attorney-general
146
Auditorship of the Exchequer—Mr. Fox, mr. Rose, mr. C. Wynne, the attorney-general, mr. Fox, mr. Rose
148
1806. Feb. 5. Auditorship of the Exchequer—Mr. C. Wynne, the attorney-general
154
1806. Feb. 10. Committee of Ways and Means. Exchequer Bills—Mr. Vansittart
158
Witnesses' Indemnity Bill—Mr. Whitbread, sir W. Elford
159
1806. Feb. 11. Affairs of India—Lord Folkestone, mr. Paull, the speaker
162
Lord Collingwood's Annuity Bill—lord Castlereagh, mr. Spencer Stanhope, mr. Vansittart, admiral Harvey
163
1806. Feb. 13. Woollen Weavers' Petition—Admiral Berkeley
168
1806. Feb. 17. Union with Ireland—Mr. Alexander, the speaker, mr. Alexander, mr. Secretary Fox, mr. Alexander
173
1806. Feb. 24. Affairs of India—Mr. Francis
181
Lord Ellenborough's Seat in the Cabinet—Mr. Spencer Stanhope, mr. Secretary Fox, mr. Spencer Stanhope
181
Regimental Courts Martial—The secretary at war
182
Sinking Fund—Sir W. Curtis, lord Henry Petty
183
Irish First Fruits Bill—Dr. Duigenan, mr. Francis, dr. Duigenan
183
Middlesex Election—Mr. P. Moore, the Speaker, mr. Perceval, mr. secretary Fox, mr. Perceval, mr. secretary Fox, the speaker, mr. Mainwaring, the speaker, mr. P. Moore
183
1806. Feb. 25. Affairs of India, (mr. Francis's motion for papers)—Mr. Francis, mr. H. Addington, lord Castlereagh, lord Morpeth, mr. Francis, lord Morpeth, mr. Grant
187
Affairs of India, (mr. Paull's motion for papers)—Mr. Paull, lord Castlereagh, mr. Fuller, lord Folkestone, lord Castlereagh, mr. Francis, lord Castlereagh, mr. Grant, mr. Francis, mr. sec. Fox, lord Morpeth, sir T. Metcalfe, mr. alderman Prinsep, mr. Johnstone, sir Hugh Inglis, mr. Paull, mr. H. Addington, dr. Laurence
192
1806. Feb. 27. Affairs of India—Lord Folkestone, the speaker, lord Folkestone, the speaker, lord Folkestone, mr. Francis, mr. Perceval, general Tarleton, mr. sec. Fox, mr. P. Moore, lord Folkestone, mr. Lee
229
Volunteers—Mr. Whitbread, general Tarleton
231
Earl St. Vincent's Annuity—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose
231
Treasurer of the Ordnance—Lord H. Petty, mr. Long
233
1806. Feb. 28. Affairs of India—Mr. alderman Prinsep, mr. Francis, mr. H. Addington, sir T. Metcalfe, mr. Francis, sir T. Metcalfe
241
1806. March 3. Affairs of India—Lord Temple; mr. Paull, mr. alderman Prinsep, mr. Huddleston, mr. Prinsep, mr. H. Addington
285
Lord Ellenborough's Seat in the Cabinet—Mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Bond, mr. Canning, lord Temple, mr. sec. Fox, lord Castlereagh, lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, mr. Sheridan, mr. Wilberforce
286
1806. March 4. Impeachment of Lord Melville—Mr. Whitbread
347
Woollen Manufacturers—Mr. Wilberforce, mr. P. Moore, lord Temple, mr. H. Lascelles, mr. C. Brooke, mr. H. Lascelles, lord Temple, the speaker
349
1806. March 5. Lord Collingwood's Annuity Bill—Mr. Bastard, lord H. Petty
350
Affairs of India—Mr. Paull, lord Temple, mr. Paull, mr. H. Addington, mr. Paull
351
Army Estimates—The secretary at war, lord Castlereagh
352
Report from the Committee of Impeachment respecting Mr. Totter—mr. Whitbread, sir W. Elford, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Whitbread, sir W. Elford, mr. Whitbread
353
Military Establishments of the Country—Mr. Long, dr. Laurence, the speaker, mr. Long, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Canning, mr. Windham
356
Mr. Trotter's Petition to be discharged—Mr. Whitbread the speaker
359
1806. March 7. Impeachment of Lord Melville, (Additional Article)—Mr. Whitbread, mr. Perceval, mr. Whitbread
364
Army Estimates—General Tarleton, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Canning, the secretary at war
367
1806. March 10. Election Treating Bill—Mr. Tierney, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Tierney, mr. Lee, sir R. Buxton
371
Affairs of India—Mr. Johnstone, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Grant, mr. Huddleston, mr. Paull, mr. Fox, lord Temple, mr. Francis, sir. T. Metcalfe, lord Folkestone, mr. Grant, mr. Francis, mr. Wallace, mr. Johnstone, mr. Fox
380
1806. March 11. Irish Catholics—Mr. Dillon, mr. secretary Fox
404
Affairs of India, (Lord Ossulston's Motion for Papers)—Lord Ossulston, lord Morpeth, mr. Francis, lord Folkestone, lord Temple
405
Affairs of India, (mr. Paull's Motion for Papers)—Mr. Paull, lord Temple, mr. Paull, mr. Johnstone, mr. H. Addington, mr. Paull, mr. W. Pole, mr. Paull
409
1806. March 12. Woollen Manufacture SuspensionBill—Mr. P. Moore, mr. H. Lascelles, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Brooke, lord Temple, mr. P. Moore, mr. Wilberforce
424
Election Treating Bill—Mr. Tierney, mr. Hurst, mr. Rose
425
1806. March 13. Irish Clergy Residence Bill—Mr. Grattan, dr. Duigenan, mr. Grattan, dr. Duigenan, mr. sec. Fox, dr. Duigenan
428
1806. March 14. Woollen Manufacture Committee—Lord H. Petty, mr. H. Lascelles, lord H. Petty
433
Affairs of India—Mr. alderman Prinsep, mr. Francis, mr, Grant, mr.
Francis, mr. Brogden, mr. Atkins, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Prinsep, lord H. Petty, lord Castlereagh
434
Military Establishments of the Country—Mr. secretary Windham, mr. Canning
446
Ordnance Estimates—Mr. Calcraft, mr. W. Pole, mr. Calcraft
446
Exchequer Bills—Mr. Vansittart
448
1806. March 17. Irish Militia Service Bill—Mr. Whitshed Keene
452
Commission of Naval Revision—Mr. Whitbread, lord Castlereagh, mr. Whitbread, mr. Bastard, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Whitbread, mr. Bastard
453
Ordnance Estimates—General Tarleton, mr. Calcraft, general Tarleton, lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Canning, mr. Windham, mr. Whitbread, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Canning, mr. Perceval, mr. Fox, dr. Laurence
456
Affairs of India—Mr. Paull, mr. Wallace, mr. sec. Fox, mr. H. Addington, lord Castlereagh, mr. Creevey, mr. Kerr, mr. Paull, lord Temple, mr. H. Addington, lord Folkestone, sir T. Metcalfe, mr. H. Addington, dr. Laurence, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Huddleston, sir T. Metcalfe, mr. R. Thornton, mr. Paull, mr. W. Pole, the speaker, mr. H. Addington, mr. Wilberforce
470
1806. March 18. Dublin Paving Bill—Mr. C. Wynne, mr. Alexander, mr. Wynne, mr. Long, lord De Blaquiere, mr. Ormsby
484
1806. March 19. Irish Militia Service Bill—Mr. Lee, general Tarleton, lord Folkestone, lord Castlereagh, mr. Vansittart
487
Affairs of India—Mr. H. Addington mr. Francis, mr. H. Addington, lord Folkestone, mr. Francis, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Bankes, lord H. Petty, lord Castlereagh, mr. Bastard, mr. Wilberforce, lord Temple, lord Morpeth, mr. H. Addington
490
1806. March 20. Military Establishments of the Country—General Tarleton, mr. sec. Windham
501
1806. March 21. Budget—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. Vansittart, lord H. Petty
504
Election Treating Bill—Mr. Fuller, mr. Morris, mr. Francis, mr. Morris, mr. Tierney, mr. W. Dundas, mr. Johnstone, mr. Lee, sir R. Buxton, mr. Rose, mr. Courtenay, capt. Herbert, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Buller, mr. Leycester, the attorney-general, mr. Tierney, lord Porchester
505
Affairs of India—Mr. Huddleston, the speaker, Mr. Huddleston
521
1806. March 24. Witnesses' Declaratory Bill—Mr. Perceval, the attorney general
524
Budget—Mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson, lord H. Petty
525
Impeachment of lord Melville—Mr Whitbread
526
Ordnance Treasurers' Bill—Lord H. Petty, mr. W. Pole, lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson
527
1806. March 25. Vote of Thanks to Admiral Duckworth, &c.—Mr. Grey
534
Waterford Writ—Mr. sec. Fox
536
Dublin Paving Bill—General Loftus, Mr. Wynne, lord De Blaquiere, Mr. J. Latouche
536
1806. March 26. Committee of Supply—Mr. Vansittart, mr. Tierney, mr. Vansittart
537
Cape of Good Hope Bill—Mr. Keene, lord Garlies, lord H. Petty, lord Castlereagh, lord H. Petty, general Tarleton, lord H. Petty
539
Impeachment of Lord Melville—Mr. Whitbread, mr. R. Dundas, mr. Tierney, mr. Bankes, lord Folkestone, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Whitbread, mr. W. Dundas, mr. Perceval, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Canning, mr. Whitbread, mr. C. Wynne, mr. Wallace, mr. Grey
540
1806. March 27. Military Establishments of the Country—Mr. Yorke, mr. sec. Fox, mr. S. Bourne, Mr. Fox
560
Waterford Writ—Mr. secretary Fox, mr. Lee, mr. Fox
562
1806. March 28. Budget—Lord H. Petty, mr. Francis, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. sec. Fox, sir V. Gibbs, sir W. Young, mr. Huskisson, mr. Vansittart, mr. S. Bourne, lord
Temple, mr. Huskisson, mr. Rose, mr. Perceval, Mr. Fox, mr. Long, lord H. Petty
564
1806. March 29. Budget—Mr. Long, mr. Vansittart, mr. Canning, lord Temple, mr. Canning, mr. Brooke, mr. Francis, mr. Babington, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty
587
1806. March 31. Slave Importation Bill—The attorney-general, the speaker, mr. Fox, mr. Perceval, the attorney-general, general Tarleton, sir W. Young, mr. Prinsep, the attorney-general
597
Report of the Budget—Mr Francis, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Francis, mr. Fox, mr. Huskisson, lord Castlereagh, mr. Vansittart, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Long, mr. Johnstone, mr. H. Addington, mr. S. Bourne, mr. Ward, lord H. Petty, mr. Brooke, mr. Vansittart, mr. Babington, mr. Vansittart
599
1806. April 1. Property Tax Bill—Sir R. Buxton, mr. Vansittart, mr. Prinsep, mr. Bastard, mr. S. Lefevre
638
Affairs of India, (Nabob of Arcot's Debts)—Mr. Hobhouse, mr. Francis, mr. Hobhouse, mr. Francis, mr. Hobhouse, mr. Goulding, lord H. Petty, mr. Huddleston
639
1806. April 3. Military Establishments of the Country—Mr. secretary Windham, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Yorke, general Norton, sir J. Pulteney, general Tarleton, sir W. W. Wynne, mr. Langham, lord Temple, general Tarleton, colonel Craufurd, mr. C. Dundas, sir W. Young, colonel Graham, mr. Huddleston
652
1806. April 14. Debts of the Nabobs of Arcot—Mr. Hobhouse, mr. W. Keene
724
Stipendiary Curates' Bill—Mr. Perceval, lord Porchester, mr. Perceval, lord Porchester, mr. sec. Fox
741
Conduct of Earl St. Vincent—Admiral Markham, mr. Jeffery, admiral Markham, lord Howick, mr. Jeffery
745
Irish House Duty Bill—Sir J. Newport, mr. Foster, sir J. Newport, mr. Lee, sir J. Newport
745
Irish Bank Notes Duties Bill—Mr. Foster, sir J. Newport, mr. Foster, sir J. Newport
748
1806. April 15. Waterford Writ—Sir J. Newport, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Lee, sir V. Gibbs
751
Witnesses' Declaratory Bill—Mr. Perceval, the attorney-general, the master of the rolls
752
Capture of the Cape of Good Hope—lord Garlies, mr. sec. Windham, lord Garlies
753
1806. April 16. Debts of the Nabobs of Arcot—Mr. Francis, mr. Hobhouse, mr. Francis, mr. Paull, mr. W. Keene, mr. H. Addington, lord Castlereagh, mr. serjeant Best, mr. Hobhouse, mr. Francis, mr. Grant
755
1806. April 17. Witnesses' Declaratory Bill—The master of the Rolls, the solicitor-general, the attorney-general, the master of the rolls, the solicitor-general, mr. Perceval, mr. sec. Fox, sir V. Gibbs, mr. Jervis, sir V. Gibbs
768
Military Opinions relating to the Army—Mr. Yorke, general Walpole, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Yorke, general Tarleton, mr. sec. Fox, lord Castlereagh, lord H. Petty, mr. Canning, lord De Blaquiere, sir J. Pulteney, mr. W. Dundas, mr. Yorke, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Yorke, mr. Fox, colonel Craufurd, mr. Perceval, lord Temple, mr. Rose, mr. Calcraft
777
Repeal of the Additional Force Bill—General Tarleton, mr. Hawthorne, mr. Perceval, lord Temple, colonel Craufurd, mr. Canning, mr. sec. Fox
792
1806. April 18. Ex-Parte Criminal Proceedings Bill—Mr. serjeant Best
795
Affairs of India—Sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, lord Castlereagh, mr. Paull, lord Castlereagh, mr. H. Addington, mr. W. Keene, mr. Francis, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Paull, mr. H. Addington, mr. Paull, mr. Grant, mr. Johnstone, mr. W. Smith
796
Slave Importation Bill—General Gascoyne, sir W. Young, general Gascoyne, sir W. Curtis, mr. Brooke
805
1806. April 21. Affairs of India—Lord A. Hamilton, mr. Huddleston, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Johnstone, mr. H. Addington, mr. R. Thornton, lord Castlereagh, mr. Paull, lord H. Petty, mr. W. Smith, dr. Laurence, mr. Grant, mr. sec. Windham, the master of the rolls, mr. Alexander, mr. Fuller, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Sheridan, the speaker, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Windham, lord Castlereagh, mr. Jervis, mr. R. Thornton
810
1806. April 21. American Intercourse—Mr. Rose, lord. H. Petty, lord Castlereagh, mr. Fuller, sir W. Young, mr. Barham, mr. Rose
834
1806. April 22. Volunteer Establishment—Mr. Perceval, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Perceval mr. Fox, lord Castlereagh, mr. Francis, mr. Paull, the speaker, lord Castlereagh, mr. Windham, general Tarleton
840
Affairs of India, (Mr. Paull's First Charge against Marquis Wellesley)—Mr. Paull, the speaker, mr. Paull, the speaker, mr. Paull, the speaker, mr. Paull, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Paull, mr. Lee, mr. Fox, the speaker, mr. Rose, sir W. Geary, mr. Paull, mr. Goulding, mr. R. Thornton, lord Temple, sir A. Wellesley, mr. I. H. Browne, mr. Rose, mr. R. Thornton, mr. Garrow, sir J. Wrottesley, mr. Sheridan, mr. r. Grant, mr. W. Pole, mr. Grant, mr. Perceval, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Paull, mr. Francis, mr. Huddleston, mr. Sheridan, mr. Francis, sir T. Metcalfe, mr. Grant, mr. H. Addington, mr. Paull
851
1806. April 23. Conduct of Earl St. Vincent—Mr Jeffery, lord Howick
886
King's Message relative to Prussia—Mr. secretary Fox, lord Castlereagh
886
Affairs of India—Mr. Sheridan, mr. H. Addington, mr. Paull, the speaker, mr. W. Smith
894
Witnesses' Declaratory Bill—Sir V. Gibbs, mr. Tyrwhitt, mr. Morris, mr. Perceval, the solicitor-general, the master of the rolls, mr. sec. Fox
898
1806. April 24. Ex-Parte Criminal Proceedings Bill—Mr. serjeant Best
902
Customs' Duties Bill—Mr. alderman Prinsep, mr. Vansittart, mr. Barham, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. Barham
903
1806. April 25. Repeal of the Additional Force Bill—Mr. sec. Fox, mr. Canning, mr. Fox
907
Increased Pay of the Navy—Lord Howick, mr. Francis, lord Garlies
908
Slave Importation Bill—Mr. Rose, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Rose, the attorney-general, mr. Rose, general Tarleton, mr. alderman Prinsep, the attorney-general, general Gascoyne
917
1806. April 25. Property Duty Bill—Lord H. Petty, sir R. Buxton, mr. W. Smith, sir C. Price, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Bastard, mr. Vansittart
920
Stipendiary Curates' Bill—Sir J. Wrottesley, mr. Perceval, lord Porchester, mr. Fellowes, lord Porchester, mr. Barham, mr. Wilberforce, mr. sec. Fox, lord Castlereagh, mr. Alexander
922
1806. April 28. Increased Pay of the Navy—Lord Garlies, the speaker, lord Howick,
929
Property Duty Bill—Mr. Ker, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. Francis, mr. Huskisson
931
Affairs of India—Mr. Paull, dr. Laurence, mr. Paull, the marquis of Douglas, mr. Sheridan, mr. Lee, mr. sec. Windham, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Paull, sir A. Wellesley, dr. Laurence, lord H. Petty, mr. Bathurst, mr. Corry, mr. W. Smith, mr. Johnstone, mr. Grant, mr. Windham, mr. Paull, the speaker, mr. Paull, mr. Bathurst
932
Pig Iron Duty Bill—Mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, sir J. Wrottesley, lord H. Petty, mr. Wilberforce, mr. I. H. Browne, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Vansittart, mr. Canning, mr. Fellowes, mr. W. Smith, mr. Rose, mr. Babington
948
1806. April 29. Election Treating Bill—Mr. Tierney, sir R. Buxton, mr. Paull, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Tierney mr. Francis, mr. Baker, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Graham, mr. Rose
955
1806. April 30. Repeal of the Additional Force Bill—Sir J. Pulteney, mr. Mainwaring, mr. Canning; mr. Wilberforce, mr. Long, mr. Hawthorne, mr. Lascelles, lord Euston, mr. G. Vansittart, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. R. Thornton, mr. Bastard, lord De Blaquiere, mr. S. Bourne, mr. C. Dundas, lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Canning, lord Temple, mr. Canning, mr. Windham, the speaker, colonel Craufurd, mr. Perceval, mr. Sheridan, mr. Canning, lord Castlereagh
961
1806. May 1. Slave Importation Bill—Mr. Rose, mr. Bagwell, sir R. Peele, general Gascoyne, sir W. Young, sir C. Price, mr. sec. Fox, general Tarleton
1021
1806. May 2. Pig Iron Duty Bill—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. Wilberforce, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Vansittart
1026
Slave Importation Bill—Mr. Wilberforce, mr. Rose, mr. Francis, mr. Rose, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Rose, mr, Wilberforce, mr. Manning
1027
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS, REPORTS, PETITIONS, LISTS, &c.
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
The lords commissioners' speech on opening the session
1
Address of the commons on the lords commissioners' speech
15
Letter from marquis Wellesley in return to the thanks of the house of commons
25
The king's answer to the address of the commons
29
Message from the king relative to the family of lord Nelson
116
Message from the king relative to lord Collingwood
117
Message from the king relative to sir Richard Strachan
117
Message from the king relative to sir John Duckworth
564
Message from the king relative to Prussia
881
Papers relative to the continental war, presented by his majesty's command to both houses of parliament App.
i
REPORTS.
TWELFTH REPORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry App.
lxxvii
FIRST REPORT of the Commissioners for Revising and Digesting the Civil Affairs of the Navy
cxxviii
REPORT from the Committee appointed to draw up Articles of Impeachment against Lord Melville
cxlii
FIRST REPORT of the Commissioners of Military Enquiry
cliii
PETITIONS.
Petition from Berkshire against the additional force bill
26
Petition from the woollen weavers of Gloucester
168
Petition from the parish of St. Mary-la-Bonne, against the additional force bill
175
Petition from the woollen manufacturers of Yorkshire
347
Petition from Mr. Trotter, praying to be discharged from the custody of the serjeant at arms
359
LISTS.
List of the minority in the commons, on Mr. Spencer Stanhope's motion relative to lord Ellenborough's seat in the cabinet, March 3, 1806
342
List of the minority in the commons, on lord A. Hamilton's motion for papers relative to the affairs of India, April 21, 1806
834
List of his majesty's ministers as it stood in January, 1806
xii
List of his majesty's ministers as it stood in April, 1806
xii
List of the members of the house of commons
xiii
LIST OF HIS MAJESTY'S MINISTERS AS IT STOOD IN JANUARY, 1806.
Cabinet Ministers.
Earl Camden
President of the council,
Lord Eldon
Lord high chancellor.
Earl a Westmoreland
Lord privy seal.
Right hon. William Pitt
First lord of the treasury and chancellor of the exchequer (prime minister).
Lord Barham
First lord of the admiralty.
Earl of Chatham
Master-general of the ordnance.
Lord Hawkesbury
Secretary of state for the home department.
Lord Mulgrave
Secretary of state for foreign affairs.
Lord viscount Castlereagh
Secretary of state for the department of war and the colonies; and president of the board of controul for the affairs of India.
Lord Harrowby
Chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster.
Not of the Cabinet.
Right hon. William Dundas
Secretary at war.
Right hon. George Canning
Treasurer of the navy.
Right hon. George Rose
Joint paymasters of his majesty's forces.
Right hon. lord Charles Somerset
The duke of Montrose
Join paymasters-general.
Lord Charles Spencer
William Huskisson, esq.
Secretaries of the treasury.
W. Sturges Bourne, esq.
Sir William Grant
Master of the rolls.
Hon. Spencer Perceval
Attorney-general.
Sir Vicary Gibbs
Solicitor-general.
PERSONS IN THE MINISTRY OF IRELAND.
Earl of Hardwicke
Lord. lieutenant.
Lord Redesdale
Lord high chancellor.
Right hon. Charles Long
Chief secretary.
Right hon. John Foster
Chancellor of the exchequer.
LIST OF HIS MAJESTY'S MINISTER AS IT STOOD IN APRIL, 1806.
Cabinet Ministers.
Earl Fitzwilliam
President of the council.
Lord Erskine
Lord high chancellor.
Viscount Sidmouth
Lord privy seal.
Lord Grenville
First lord of the treasury (prime minister).
Lord Howick (late Mr. Grey)
First lord of the admiralty.
Ear of Moira
Master-general of the ordnance.
Earl Spencer
Secretary of state for the home department.
Right hon. Charles James Fox
Secretary of state for foreign affairs.
Right hon. William Windham
Secretary of state for the department of war and the colonies.
Lord Ellenborough
Lord chief justice of the court of King's bench.
Lord Henry Petty
Chancellor and under-treasurer of the exchequer.
Not of the Cabinet.
Lord Minto
President of the board of controul for the affairs of India.
Earl of Derby
Chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster.
Lord Auckland
president of the board of trade.
Right hon. Richard Fitzpatrick
Secretary at war.
Right hon. Richard Brinsley Sheridan
Treasurer of the navy.
Earl Temple
Joint paymasters-general.
Lord John Townshend
Earl of Buckinghamshire
Joint postmasters-general.
Earl of Carysfort
Right hon. Nicholas Vansittart
Secretaries of the treasury.
John King, esq
Sir William Grant
Master of the rolls.
Sir Arthur Pigott
Attorney-general.
Sir Samuel Romilly
Solicitor-general.
PERSONS IN THE MINISTRY OF IRELAND.
Duke of Bedford
Lord lieutenant.
Right hon. George Ponsonby
Lord high chancellor.
Right hon. William Elliott
Chief secretary.
Right hon. sir John Newport
Chancellor of the exchequer.
AN ALPHABETICAL LIST
As it stood in the Month of April,
Abbot, rt. hon. Charles, Speaker, Woodstoc
Abercrombie, hn. George, Edinburgh
Acheson, visct. Armaghshire
Adair, Robert, Camelford
Adams, Chas. Weymouth, &c.
Adams, James, Harwich
Adams, William, Totness
Addington, rt. hon. Jn. Hiley, Harwich
Ainslie, R. Sharpe, St, Michael
Alexander, Boyd, Glasgow
Alexander, Henry, Old Sarum
Allan, Alexander, Berwick
Althorp, visct. Okehampton
Amyatt, James, Southampton
Anderson, sir John Wm. bart. London
Andover, viscount, Arundel
Andrews, Miles Peter, Bewdley
Annesley, Francis, Reading
Anson, George, Lichfield
Antonio, Wm. Lee, Bedford
Archdall,M. jun. Fermanaghsh.
Archdall, Richard, Dundalk
Ashley,hn. Cropley, Dorchester
Astley, sir Jacob Henry, bart. Norfolk
Atkins, John, Arundel
Aubrey, sir Jn. Bart. Aldeburgh
Babington, Thomas, Leicester
Bagwell, Jn. Tipperary
Bagwell, Wm. Clonmell
Bagenell, Walter, Catherlogh county
Baillie, Evan, Bristol
Baillie, Geo. jun Berwickshire
Baker, John, Canterbury
Baker, Pet. Wm. Wootton Basset
Baker, Wm. Hertfordshire
Baldwin, Wm. Westbury
Bampfylde, sir Ch. W.bt. Exeter
Bankes, Henry, Corff Castle
Barclay, George, Bridport
Barclay, sir Rt. bt. Newton, Hants.
Barham, Jos. Foster, Stockbridge
Baring, sir Francis, bart. Wycombe, Chipping
Barlow, Hugh, Pembroke
Barne, Snowdon, Dunwich
Bastard, Edmund, Dartmouth
Bastard, Jn. Pollexfen, Devonsh.
Bathurst, rt. hon. Cha. Bristol
Beach, Mich. Hicks, Cirencester
Beaumont, Tho. Rd. Northumberland
Bennet, R. H. A. Launceston
Benyon, Richard, Pontefract
Beresford, ld. Geo. T. Londonderry county
Beresford, Jn. C. Waterford co.
Berkeley, hon. Geo. Cranfield, Gloucestershire
Bernard, Tho. King's County
Bertie, Albemarle, Stamford
Best, Wm. Draper, Petersfield
Binning, lord, St. Germain
Bishopp, sir C. bt. NewShoreham
Blackburne, John, Lancashire
Blackburn, Jn. Newport, Hants
Bligh, Tho. Meath county
Bloxam, sir Mat. kt. Maidstone
Bond, rt. hon. Nath. Corff Castle
Bootle, Edw. Wilbr. Newcastle under Line
Bouverie, hon. Ed. Northampton
Boyle, visct. Cork county
Bradshaw, hon. Aug. Cavendish, Honiton
Bradshaw, Rt. Haldane, Bracley
Branding, Ch.J. Newcastle on Tyne
Brodie, James, Elginshire
Brodrick, hon. W. Whitchurch
Brogden, James, Launceston
Brooke, Chas. Ivelchester
Brooke, lord, Warwick
Brooke, T. Newton, Lancashire
Browne, right hon. Denis, Mayo county
Browne, F. John, Dorsetshire
Browne, Is. Hawk. Bridgenorth
Bruce, Pat. Craufurd, Evesham
Bruce, lord, Marlborough
Buller, Edward, East Looe
Buller, James, Exeter
Buller, John, East Looe
Bullock, John, Essex
Bunbury, sir T. C. bt. Suffolk
Burdon, Rowl. Durham county
Burghersh, lord, Lime Regis
Burton, Francis, Oxford city
Burton, hon. F. Nath. Clare co.
Burton, Nap. Christie, Beverley
Butler, hon. Ch. Kilkenny city
Butler, hon. Jas. Kilkenny co.
Buxton, sir Rt. John, bt. Bedwin
Byng, George, Middlesex
Calcraft, John, Wareham
Calvert, John, Huntingdon
Calvert, Nicholson, Hertford
Campbell, Alex. Anstruther
Campbell, John, Rothsay
Campbell, lord Jn. D. E. H. Argyllshire
Canning, rt. hon. Geo. Tralee
Carew, rt. hon. Reg. P. Fowey
Cartwright, W. R. Northamptonshire
Castlereagh, vist. Boroughbridge
Cavendish, lord Geo. Aug. Hen. Derbyshire
Cavendish, Wm. Aylesbury
Caulfield, hon. H. Armagh co.
Chaplin, Chas. Lincolnshire
Chester, Chas. Castle-Rising
Chichester, lord Spencer Stanley, Carricfergus
Chinnery, sir B. bart. Bandonbridge
Cholmondeley, Tho. Cheshire
Chute, William, Hampshire
Clements, hon. J. Leitrimshire
Clephane, David, Kinross-shire
Clive, hon. Robert, Ludlow
Clive, Wm. Bishop's Castle
Cochrane, hon. sir Alex. Forrester, Dumfermlin, &c.
Cockerell, Charles, Tregony
Cocks, hon. Philip Jas Ryegate
Codrington, Chris. Tewkesbury
Coke, D. Parker, Nottingham
Coke, Edward, Derby
Coke, Thos. Wm. Norfolk
Colborne, Nic. W. Ridley, Blechingley
Cole, hon. G. L. Fermanaghsh.
Combe, Harv. Chris. London
Cooke, Bryan, Malton
Cooper, Josh. Ed. Sligo county
Cornewall, sir Geo. A. bt. Herefordshire
Cornwallis, James, Eye
Cornwallis, hon. Wm. Eye
Corry, rt. hon. Isaac, Newry
Courtenay, John, Appleby
Cowper, hon. Edw. Spencer, Hertford
Cranley, visct. Guildford
Craufurd, Rt. East Retford
Creevey, Thomas, Thetford
Crosbie, Jas. Kerry county
Cumming, Geo. Fortrose
Curtis, sir Wm. bart. London
Curwen, Jn. Christian, Carlisle
Curzon, hon. Robt. Clitheroe
Cust, hon. John, Clitheroe
Dalkeith, earl of, St. Michael
Dallas, Rt. M. Kirkaldy, &c.
Daly, Denis B. Dalwayshire
Daly, James, Galway
Daniell, Ralph Allen, West Looe
Dashwood, sir H. W. bt. Woodstoc
Dawkins, James, Chippenham
Dawson, Rich. Monaghan co.
De Blaquiere, ld. K. B. Downton
Denison, John, Colchester
Dent, John, Lancaster.
Devaynes, Wm. Barnstaple
Deverell, Robert, Saltash
Dick, Quintin, West Looe
Dickins, Frs. Northamptonshire
Dickinson, Wm. Somersetshire
Dickinson, W. jun. Lestwithiel
Dickson, Wm. Selkirk
Dillon, hon. H. Aug. Mayo co.
Dolben, sir W. bt. Oxford Univer.
Douglas, sir G. bt. Roxburghsh.
Douglas, marquis of, Lancaster
Drake, Th. Tyr. Agmondesham
Dugdale, Stratford Dugdale, Warwickshire
Duigenan, Patr. Armagh
Duncombe, Chas. Aldborongh
Dundas, Charles, Berks
Dundas hon. Charles Lau. Richmond
Dundas, hon. Laurence, York
Dundas-Saunders, hon. Rob. Edinburghshire
Dundas, rt.hn. W. Sutherlandsh.
Duncannon, visct. Knaresboro'
Dupré, James, Aylesbury
Durand, Jn. Hodson, Maidstone
Ebrington, visct. Barnstaple
Egerton, Wm. Tatton, Cheshire
Elford, sir Wm. bt. Plymouth
Elliot, hon. Wm. Leskeard
Elliot, rt. hon. Wm. Peterborough
Ellis, Chas. Rose, Seaford
Ellison, Richard, Lincoln
Elphinstone-Fleeming, hon. C. Stirlingshire
Erskine, hon. Dav. Montagu, Portsmouth.
Erskine, sir Wm. bt. Fifeshire
Estcourt, Thomas, Criclade
Estcourt, T. Grimst. Devizes
Everett, Thomas, Ludgershall
Euston, earl of, Cam. University
Eyre, Ant. H. Nottinghamshire
Falkiner, F. J. Dublin county
Fane, Francis, Dorchester
Fane, Henry, Lime Regis
Fane, John, Oxfordshire
Farquhar, Jas. Brechin, &c.
Fellowes, hon. Newton, Andover
Fellowes, Robert, Norwich
Fellowes, W. H. Huntingdon
Ferguson, Jas. Aberdeenshire
Fetherstone, sir T.bt. Longford co.
Finch, hon. Edw. Cambridge
Fitzgerald, rt. hon. Jas. Ennis
Fitzgerald, rt. hon. M. Kerry co.
Fitzgerald, ld. Rt. S. Kildare co.
Fitzgerald, Rt. Un. Cork county
Fitzharris, visct. Horsham
Fitzhugh, Wm. Tiverton
Fitzpatrick, rt. hon. R. Tavistec
Fitzroy, ld. Chas. Edmundsbury
Fletcher, sir H. bt. Cumberland
Foley, hon. Andrew, Droitwich
Foley, Thomas, Droitwich
Foljambe,F.Fer. Higham Ferrers
Folkes, sir M. B. bt. King's Lynn
Folkestone, visct. New Sarum
Fonblanque, John, Camelford
Forester, Cecil, Wenloe
Fortescue, W. C. Louth county
Foster, rt. hon. J. Louth county
Fox, rt. hon. C. J. Westminster
Francis, Philip, Appleby
Frankland, Wm. Thirsk
Frederick, sir John, bt. Surrey
French, Arth. Roscommon co.
Fuller, John, Sussex
Fydell Tho. jun. Boston
Gamon, sir Rd. bt. Winchester
Gardner, lord, Westminster
Garland, George, Poole
Garlies, visct. Cockermouth
Garrow, William, Gatton
Gascoyne, Isaac, Liverpool
Geary, sir Wm. bart. Kent
Gibbs, sir Vic kt. Totness
Giles, Dan. East Grinstead
Glassford, Henry, Dumbartonshire
Glenbervie, lord, Hastings
Goddard, Amb. Wiltshire
Godfrey,Thomas, Hythe
Golding, Edward, Plympton
Gooch, Th. Sherlock, Suffolk
Gower, lord G. L. Staffordshire
Gower, Edw. Leveson, Truro
Graham, sir Jas. bart. Ripon
Graham, Jas. Stranra
Graham, Thomas, Perthshire
Grant, Chas. Inverness-shire
Grant, Francis, Wm. Cullen
Grant, right hon. sir Wm. knt. Bamffshire
Grattan, Henry, Malton
Greene, W. Dungarvan borough
Gregor, Francis, Cornwall
Grenfell, Pascoe, jun. Marlow
Grenville, rt. hn. T. Buckingham
Grevile, hon. R. Fulk, Windsor
Grimstone, hon. J. W. St. Alban's
Grosvenor, Richard Erle Drax, Chester
Grosvenor, Thomas, Chester
Gunning, G. W. Hastings
Hamilton, ld. A. Lanerkshire
Hamilton, sir C. bt. Dungannon
Hamilton, Hans, Dublin county
Hamilton, sir H. Dalrymple, bt. Ayrshire
Hammet, John, Taunton
Hamond, sir A. S. bt. Ipswich
Hardman, E. Drogheda co. &tn.
Harrison, John, Thetford
Hartopp, sir E. C. bt. Leicestersh.
Harvey, Eliab, Essex
Hawkins, sir C. bt. Grainpound
Hawthorn, C. S. Downpatric
Heathcote, sir G. bt. Lincolnshire
Heathcote, John, Ripon
Heathcote, sir W. bt. Hampshire
Henderson, Ant. Bracley
Henniker, lord, Rutland
Herbert, hon. Chas. Wilton
Hill, sir Geo. Fitz, bt. londonderry
Hill, John, Shrewsbury
Hill, sir Rich. bt. Shropshire
Hill, hon. Wm. Shrewsbury
Hilliard, Edward, Horsham
Hinchinbrooke, visct. Huntingdonshire
Hippisley, sir J. C. bt. Sudbury
Hobhouse, Benj. Grampound
Hodson, John, Wigan
Holdsworth, A. H. Dartmouth
Holford, G. P. Bossiney
Holland, H. jun. Okehampton
Holland, sir N. bt. Great Bedwin
Honeyman, Rt. Orkneyshire
Honywood, Filmer, Kent
Hope, hon. A. Linlithgowshire
Hope, hn. C. Haddingtonshire
Hope, W. J. Dumfries
Horrocks, Samuel, Preston
Howard, Henry, Gloucester
Howick, visct. Northumberland
Huddleston, John, Bridgewater
Hughes, Wm. L. Wallingford
Hulkes, James, Rochester
Hume, W. H. Wicklow county
Huntingfield, lord, Dunwich
Horst, Robt. Shaftesbury
Huskisson, Wm. Leskeard
Hussey, Wm. New Sarum
Hutchinson, hon. C. H. Cork
Jaffray, John, East Retford
Jeffery, John, Poole
Jekyll, Joseph, Calne
Jephson, Denham, Mallow
Jervis, T. Yarmouth, Norf.
Inglis, sir H. bt. Ashburton
Joddrell, Henry, Bramber
Johnes, Thos. Cardiganshire
Johnstone, George, Heydon
Jolliffe, Hylton, Petersfield
Jones, Th. Tyrwhitt, Athlone
Jones, Walter, Coleraine
Keane, sir Jn. bt. Youghall
Keck, G. A. L Leicestershire
Keene, Whitshed, Montgomery
Kensington, ld. Haverfordwest
Ker, Rd Gerv. Newport, Hants
King, hn. E. Roscommon county
King, Jn. Enneskillen
King, sir J. Dashwood, bt. Chipping-Wycombe
Kingston, John, Lymington
Kirkwall, visct. Heytesbury
Knight, R
Knox, hn. G. Trinity Col. Dub,
Kyhaston-Powell, J. Shropshire
Ladbroke, Robt. Winchilsea
Lamb, hon. Wm. Leominster
Lambton, Ralph, Jn. Durham
Langham, Jas. St. Germain
Langston, John, Portarlington
Langton, W. G. Somersetshire
Lascelles, hon. E. Northallerton
Lascelles, hon. H. Yorkshire
Latouche, D. Catherlogh co.
Latouche, Jn. jun. Dublin city
Latouche, Pet. jun. Leitrim co.
Latouche, Rt. Kildare county
Laurence, F. Peterborough
Lawley,sir Rt. bt. Newcas. un. L.
Lee, Edw. Waterford county
Lefevre, Cha. Shaw, Reading
Le Fleming, sir M. bt. Westmorland
Leigh, J. H. Marlborough
Leigh, Robt. Holt, Wigan
Leland, John, Stamford
Lemon, John, Truro
Lemon, sir Wm. bart. Cornwall
Lenox, Charles, Sussex
Leslie, Ch. P. Monaghanshire
Leycester, Hugh, Milborne Port
Littleton, sir E. bt. Staffordshire.
Loftus, Wm. Tamworth
Long, rt. hon. Cha. Wendover
Longfield, M. Cork city
Lopez, sir M. M. bt. New Romney
Lovaine, lord, Beeralston
Loveden, Edw. L. Shaftesbury
Lowther, Jas. Westmorland
Lowther, John, Cumberland
Lubbock, John, Leominster
Lushington, sir S. bt. Penryn
Luttrell, Jn. Fownes, Minehead
Lygon, Wm. B. Worcestershire
Macdonald, James, Dornoc
Macdowall, Wm. Renfrewshire
Mackenzie-Frazer, A Cromartyshire
M'Mahon, John, Aldborough
Macnaghten, E. A. Antrim co.
Madocks, W. A. Boston
Magens, M. D. Ludgershall
Mainwaring, G. B. Middlesex
Maitland, John, Chippenham
Mann, sir Horace, bt. Sandwich
Manners, ld. C. S. Cambridgesh.
Manners, John, Ivelchester
Manners, ld. Rt. Scarborough
Manners, Robert, Cambridge
Manning, Wm. Lymington
Markham, John, Portsmouth
Markham, Osborne, Calne
Marsham, visct. Downton
Martin, James, Tewkesbury
Martin, Rich. Galway county
Mathew, visct. Tipperary co.
Mathews,Jn. M. D. Herefordsh.
Maule, hon. Wm. Forfarshire
Maxwell, Wm. jun. Wigtownshire
May, Edward, Belfast
Meade, hon. Rt. Downshire
Mellish, Wm. Great Grimsby
Metcalfe, Philip, Plympton
Metcalfe, sir T. T bt. Abingdon
Middleton, sir W. bt. Ipswich
Milbanke, sir R. bt. Durham co.
Mildmay, sir H. P. S. bt. Winchester
Milford, ld. Pembrokeshire
Mills, Charles, Warwic
Mills, G. Galway, Wallingford
Mills, Wm. Coventry
Milner, sir W. M. bart. York
Mitford, Wm. Beeralston
Moffat, Wm. Winchilsea
Moncton, hon. Ed. Stafford
Montagu, ld.Fr. Huntingdonsh.
Montgomery, rt. hon. sir Jas. bt. Peebleshire
Moore, Charles, Heytesbury
Moore, Peter, Coventry
Mordaunt, C. Warwickshire
Morgan, rt. hon. sir Chas. bt. Breconshire
Morgan, Chas. Monmouthshire
Morland, Wm. Taunton
Morpeth, visct. Morpeth
Morris, Edw. Newport, Cornwall
Morris, Robt. Gloucester
Moyston, sir T. bart. Flintshire
Mundy, E. M. Derbyshire
Nepean, rt. hon. sir E. bt. Bridport
Neville, hon. Rich. Thirsk
Neville, Rich. Wexford
Newborough, lord, Beaumaris
Newcomen, hon. T.G. Longford county
Newport, rt. hon. sir John, bt. Waterford
Nicholl, sir John, knt. Penryn
Noel, Gerard Noel, Rutland
Norman, Rich. Bramber
North, Dudley, Banbury
Northey, Wm. Newport, Cornw.
Norton, hon. J. C. Guildford
O'Brien, sir E. bt. Clare county
Odell, Wm. Limerick county
O'Hara, Chas. Sligo county
Oliver, C. S. Limeric county
O'Neil, hon. J. R. B. Antrim co.
Orchard, Paul, Callington
Ord, William, Morpeth
Ormsby, C.M. Catherlogh
Osborne, ld. F. G. Lewis
Osborn, John, Bedfordshire
Ossulston, lord, Steyning
Paget, rt. hon. sir Arthur, K.B. Anglesey co.
Paget, hon. C. Milborne Port
Paget, hen. Edw. Carnarvon
Palk, sir Laur. bt. Devonshire
Palk, Walter, Ashburton
Palmer, John, Bath
Parnell, Henry, Queen's Co.
Parsons, rt. hon. sir Laur. bt. King's County
Patten, P. Newton, Lancashire
Patteson, John, Minehead
Paull, James, Newton, Hants
Paxton, sir W. knt. Carmarthen
Pedley, John, Hindon
Peel, sir Rt. bt. Tamworth
Peirse, Henry, Northallerton
Pelham, hn. C.A. GreatGrimsby
Penn, Richard, Haslemere
Perceval, hon. S. Northampton
Petty, lord Henry, Cambridge University
Phipps, hon. Edm. Scarborough
Pier
Pigot, sir Arthur, knt. Steyning
Pitt, Wm. Morton, Dorsetshire
Plumer, Wm. Herefordshire
Pocock, Geo. Bridgewater
Pole, sir C. M. bt. Newark
Pole,hon W. W. Queen's County
Ponsonby, rt. hon. G. Wicklowshire
Ponsonby, hon. George, Kilkennyshire
Porcher, J. Dupré, Bodmyn
Porchester, lord, Criclade
Porter, George, Stockbridge
Portman, E. B Boroughbridge
Poyntz, Wm. Steph. St. Alban's
Praed, Wm. St. Ives
Preston, sir Rt. bt. Cirencester
Price, sir Chas. bt. London
Price, Rich. New Radnor
Prinsep, John, Queenborough
Primrose, visct. Hellestone
Proby, visct. Buckingham
Pulteney, sir Js. bt. Weymouth,
Pym, Francis, Bedfordshire
Pytches, John, Sudbury
Raine, Jonathan, St. Ives
Ram, Abel, Wexford county
Rendlesham, ld. Castle-Rising
Ridley, sir M. White, bt. Newcastle on Tyne
Robarts, Abram, Worcester
Robinson Jn. Bishop's Castle
Robson, Rd. Bateman, Honiton
Rochfort, G. Westmeath county
Romilly, sir Sam. knt. Queenborough
Rose, rt. hon. Geo. Christchurch
Rose, G. H. Southampton
Ross, sir C. bt. Ross-shire
Russell, Matth. Saltash
Russell, lord Wm. Surrey
Rutherford, Jn. Selkirkshire
Ryder, hon. Rd. Tiverton
St. John, Ambrose, Callington
Salisbury, sir Rt. bt. Brecon
Sargent, John, Bodmyn
Savage, Francis, Down county
Savile, Christopher, Heydon
Saunderso
Scott, Claude, Malmesbury
Scott, David, Yarmouth, I. W.
Scott, Joseph, Worcester
Scott, Samuel, Malmesbury
Scott, rt. hon. sir William knt. Oxford University
Scudamore, R. P. Hereford
Seymour, lord Robert, Orford
Shafto, Rt. E. Durham city
Shakespeare, Arth. Richmond
Shaw, Robert, Dublin
Sheldon, Ralph, Wilton
Shelley, Henry, jun. Lewes
Shelley, Tim. New Shoreham
Sheridan, R. B. Stafford
Sibthorp, Hum. W. Lincoln
Simpson, hon. John, Wenloc
Sinclair, sir Jn. bart. Buteshire
Sitwell, Francis, Berwick
Sloane, Hans, Lestwithiel
Smith, Charles, Westbury
Smith, George, Midhurst
Smith, John, Wendover
Smith, John Spencer, Dover
Smith, Joshua, Devizes
Smith, Samuel, Leicester
Smith, Tho. Asheton, Andover
Smith, William, Norwich
Smith, Wm. Westmeath county
Smith, sir William Sidney, knt. K. C. Rochester
Smyth, rt. hn. John, Pontefract
Sneyd, Nath. Cavan county
Somerset, lord Arth. Monmouthshire
Somerset, lord C. H. Monmouth
Somerset, ld. R. E. H. Gloucestershire
Somerville, sir M. bt. Meath co.
Spencer, lord F. A. Oxfordshire
Spencer, lord Rt. Tavistoc
Stanhope, W. Spencer, Carlisle
Staniforth, J. Kingston-on-Hull
Stanley, lord, Preston
Stanley, Thomas, Lancashire
Steele, Robt. Weobly
Steele, rt. hon. Thos. Chichester
Stephens, sir Ph. bt. Sandwich
Stewart, G. T. Weymouth, &c.
Stewart, hon. C.W. Londonderry county
Stewart, sir J. bt. Donegall co.
Stewart, Jas. Tyrone county
Stewart, rt. hon. sir John, bart. Tyrone county
Stewart, hon, M. Kircudbright
Stopford, visct. Annan
Strachey,sir Hen. bt. East Grinstead
Strahan, Andrew, Wareham
Strutt, Joseph Holden, Malden
Stuart, ld. Wm. Cardiff
Stuart, W. J. S. Bossiney
Stuart, sir Jn. bt. Kincardineshire
Sturges-Bourne, Wm. Christchurch
Sudley, visct. Donegall county
Sullivan,rt. hon.Jn. Aldberough
Sullivan, sir R. J. bt. Seaford
Symonds, T. P. Hereford
Talbot, sir Ch. H. bt. Rye
Tarleton, Banastre, Liverpool
Taylor, Ch. Wm. Wells
Temple, earl, Bucks
Templetown, visct. St. Edmundsbury
Thellusson, Chas. Evesham
Thellusson, Geo. W. Tregony
Thomas, Geo. White, Chichester
Thornton, Henry, Southwark
Thornton, Robt. Colchester
Thornton, S. Kingston on Hull
Thoroton, Thomas, Grantham
Thynne, lord Geo. Weobly
Thynne, John, lord, Bath
Tierney, rt. hon. G. Southwark
Tichfield, marquis of, Bucks
Tottenham, Ponsonby, NewRoss
Townshend, ld. J. Knaresboro'
Townshend, hon. W. A. Whitchurch
Trail, James, Orford
Trevenion, John, Dover
Troubridge, sir Thos. bt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Tudway, Clement, Wells
Turnor, Edm. jun. Midhurst
Tyrwhitt-Drake, Thos. Drake, Agmondesham
Tyrwhitt, Thos. Plymouth
Vansittart, Arth. jun. Windsor
Vansittart, Geo. Berkshire
Vansittart,rt.hon.N. Old Sarum
Vaughan, hon. John, Cardigan
Vaughan, sir Rt. W. bt. Merionethshire
Vereker, Chas. Limerie
Wallace, rt. hon. Tho. Hindon
Walpole, hon. Geo. Derby
Walpole, hon. H. King's Lynn
Walsh, sir J. B. bt. Blechingly
Ward, hon J. W. Worcestershire
Ward, Robt. Cockermouth
Warren, rt. hon. sir J.
Watson, hon. Geo. Canterbury
Wedderburn, sir D. bt. St. Andrew's
Welby, sir W. E. bt. Grantham
Wellesley, hn. sir Arth. K. B. Rye
West, hon. Fred. Denbigh
Western, Cha. C. Malden
Wharton, John, Beverley
Whitbread, Samuel, Bedford
White, Matthew, Hythe
Whitmore, John, Bridgenorth
Wickham, rt.hon. Wm. Cashell
Wigram, sir Robert, bt. Fowey
Wilberforce, Wm. Yorkshire
Wilkins, Walter, Radnorshire
Willet, Jn. W. New Romney
Williams, J.H. Carmarthenshire
Williams, Owen, Marlow
Williams, sir Rt. bt. Carnarvonshire
Williams, Rt. Wootton Basset
Williams, Watkin, Flint
Willoughby, Henry, Newark
Windham, rt. hon. W. St. Mawes
Wood, George, Haslemere
Wood, Mark, Gatton
Wright, J. A. Oxford city
Wrottesley, sir Jn. bt. Lichfield
Wyndham, Hen. P. Wiltshire
Wyndham, T. Glamorganshire
Wynne, sir W. W. bt. Denbighshire
Wynne, C. W. W. Montgomeryshire
Wynne, Owen, Sligo
Yarmouth, earl of, Lisburne
Yorke, hon. sir Joseph Sidney, knt. Ryegate
Yorke, rt. hon. C. Cambridgeshire
Young, sir Wm. bt. St. Mawes
During the Fourth Session of the Second Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom of Great Britain the Nineteenth, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first Day of January, 1806, in the Forty-sixth Year of the Reign of King GEORGE the Third. [Sess. 1806.
1
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, January 21, 1806.
The session of parliament was opened this day, by commission; the commissioners were, the lord chancellor, the archbishop of Canterbury, lord Ellenborough, chief justice, the earl of Dartmouth, lord chamberlain, and lord Hawkesbury, principal secretary of state for the home department. A little after three, the lords commissioners took their seats on the woolsack, and the Commons, pursuant to message, having attended, with their speaker at the bar, the lord chancellor informed them, that his majesty had been pleased to direct his commission to certain lords therein named, to open the session, which commission they should hear read, and afterwards his majesty's most gracious speech. The commission was then read by the clerk at the table; and the lord Chancellor then read the Speech, as it here follows:
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"In pursuance of the authority given to us by his majesty's commission, under the great seal, amongst other things to declare the cause of his holding this parliament, his majesty has directed us particularly to call your attention to the most decisive success with which Providence has vouchsafed to bless his majesty's arms at sea, since you were last assembled in parliament.—The activity and perseverance of his majesty's fleets have been conspicuously displayed, in the pursuit and attack of the different squadrons of the enemy; and every encounter has termi
2
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"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"His majesty has directed the estimates for the year to be laid before you, and has commanded us to assure you, that they are framed upon that scale of exertion which the present situation of the country renders indispensable. His majesty fully relies upon your granting him such supplies as, upon due deliberation, the public exigencies may appear to require.—It is his earnest wish to contribute, by every means in his power, to alleviate the additional burthens which must necessarily be imposed upon his people, and with this view he has directed the sum of one million sterling, part of the proceeds arising from the sale of such prizes made on the powers with whom he is at war, as are by law vested in the crown, to be applied to the public services of the year.
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"His majesty is fully persuaded, that whatever pride and confidence you may feel in common with him in the success which has distinguished the British arms in the course of the present contest, you
4
The commons having retired, the lords commissioners withdrew to unrobe, and, shortly after, lord Ellenborough took the seat on the woolsack, the lord chancellor's state of health not permitting him to sit out the expected debate. At four o'clock earl Nelson, preceded by sir Isaac Heard garter king at arms, the duke of Norfolk earl marshal, and lord Auckland, and supported by the earls of Macclesfield and Bristol, was introduced to the house. His majesty's royal letters patent were delivered in at the table by garter, and read by the clerk. The marquis of Lansdowne, marquis Wellesley, and lord St. John, also took the oaths and their seats; this being the first time of their appearing in their place in parliament since their accession to their present titles.—A bill was then brought in by lord Walsingham, and read a first time, according to the established usage of the house, previous to the speech being taken into consideration. His majesty's most gracious speech was then read by lord Ellenborough from the woolsack, and afterwards by the clerk at the table, after which
The Earl of Essex
rose, to move an address of thanks to his majesty for the speech that had been just read. His lordship lamented, that this necessary duty had not devolved to some noble lord better qualified than himself to fulfil the task. He, however, had that confidence in the kindness and liberal feelings of their lordships, that they would extend the same indulgence to him, which persons who were not accustomed to address their lordships generally obtained. He would
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Lord Carleton
rose to second the address, and spoke nearly as follows:—My lords, the address to which your lordships are now called on to give your assent, and which I hope will meet with your unanimous concurrence, does not pledge the house to any specific line of proceeding; and therefore, I trust, none of your lordships will object to it. Most of the topics alluded to in his majesty's speech are such as must meet your concurrence. The glorious victory of Trafalgar is an event of such magnitude and importance, that it is hardly possible for the imagination to conceive any other more transcendent: it is superior to almost every other naval action, for which our history is so famous. The unparalleled valour displayed by all the individuals engaged in that action, and the unexampled ability and skill with which it was conducted, has been a subject of admiration to this country and the whole world. Never was so great an enemy so completely destroyed. The naval skill and the valour displayed on that glorious occasion was never equalled, and will never be surpassed. Every man who recollects the signal given by the hero who achieved the successes, "England "expects that every man will do his duty," must be struck with a still higher degree of admiration of his character. We never can speak or think with sufficient admiration of this great victory, nor sufficiently
7
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Earl Cowper
said, that he did not rise to offer any opposition to the motion now before their lordships. He was anxious, however, that it should be understood, that his own conduct, and that of other noble lords, in abstaining from expressing their sentiments on this occasion, should not he attributed to an entire concurrence in all the observations which had been made by the noble mover and seconder. The fact was, that he had come down to the house with a determination to move an amendment upon the motion for the address; but he was induced to postpone it, from the consideration, solely, of the indisposition of a right hon. gentleman at the head of his majesty's councils. He felt that, as the address did not in itself pledge noble lords to any thing, upon which there could be any great difference of opinion, it was rather a point of delicacy to offer any proposition, under the present circumstances, leading to a discussion, in which Must necessarily be involved the conduct of the right hon. gentleman alluded to. Having said thus much, he should satisfy himself, for the present, with reading the amendment which he had drawn up. His lordship then read over the amendment. The purport of it tended to express the deep concern which the house felt at the disasters recently sustained by his majesty's allies on the Continent: and to assure his majesty, that the house would take the earliest opportunity of enquiring into the causes of these disasters, so far as they might be connected with the conduct of his majesty's ministers; and to suggest such measures as should appear to be necessary for averting the dangers which threatened this country. His lordship concluded with giving notice, that on Monday next he should submit a motion, embracing the substance of the amendment which he had just read.
Lord Grenville
rose to return thanks to the noble lord, who had just sat down, for the sentiments which he had expressed. The situation of the country was, in his view of it, such as to call for the most prompt and attentive consideration. That consideration ought, most certainly, to be no longer postponed than was necessary to put their lordships completely in possession of the subjects which demanded their most serious enquiry. It was desirable that their lordships' decision should
9
Lord Hawkesbury
expressed his acquiescence in most of the observations which had fallen from the two noble lords who had spoken last. To both, and particularly to the noble lord who had just sat down, he gave the fullest credit for the motives which had induced them to wave any discussion of the measures of government, at the moment when his right hon. friend,
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Lord Mulgrave
complimented the two noble lords on the motives which induced them to abstain from then discussing the conduct of his majesty's ministers. He, however, expressed his conviction that that conduct, when the requisite information was before the house, would meet their unanimous approbation. It would be found such as would place in the most conspicuous point of view, the character of the government and of the country. Not withstanding the unfortunate result of the efforts of our allies on the continent, he pledged himself, that the issue of the most ample investigation, upon the documents which it would be his duty to lay
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Lord Grenville
said, that his noble friend seemed to interpret what had fallen from him in a larger sense than he intended. He was unwilling that their lordships should separate under the impression, that he conceived-all discussion upon the state of affairs should be forborne until the communications alluded to were laid before parliament.? These communications, so far as the character of his majesty's ministers was implicated in the transactions on the continent, were certainly indispensibly requisite to enable the house to conic to a correct decision on their conduct. But there were various other topics connected with the present situation of the country, which called for the consideration of parliament with the least possible delay; and as these would, no doubt, he adverted to by the noble earl below him on Monday, he would certainly, so far as his opinion went, recommend it to that noble lord to persist in the notice which lie had given.—The motion being then put from the woolsack, was agreed to,
nem. diss.
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[CONDUCT OF JUDGE Fox.]
The Marquis of Abercorn
called their lordships' attention to the state of the proceedings in the case of Mr. justice Fox. It was necessary, as well for the sake of the person accused, as for the sake of those concerned in the accusation, that the time in which their lordships may be able to take up, and proceed with, the business, should be specified; for his part, he was prepared to come forward with the evidence, relative to whatever concern he might have in the business, as soon as the pleasure of the house should be known in that respect.
Lord Carleton
made several observations in consequence of what fell from the noble marquis; but, in such a tone of voice, as that the far greater part of what he said, was inaudible at the bar. In the outset, he expressed his concurrence in the propriety of what the noble lord said, as to the period for proceeding with the business, being fixed with certainty.—Lord Hawkesbury gave notice, that on Friday he should move a vote of thanks to lord Collingwood and sir Richard Strachan, and the officers and seamen under their command, in the recent actions off Trafalgar and Rochefort.—Earl Darnley stated his intention to take an early opportunity, of moving for an account of the number of men raised by the parish officers, under the Additional Force Act.—On the motion of lord Hawkesbury, lord Walsingham was appointed chairman of all their lordships' committee, during the present session.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, January 21.
The house met this day pursuant to his majesty's proclamation, for the dispatch of business. At three o'clock Mr. Quarrne, yeoman usher of the black rod, appeared within the bar, and informed the house that the lords, authorised by virtue of his majesty's commission, desired the immediate attendance of the house, in the house of peers, to hear the commission read. The Speaker, accompanied by several members, accordingly attended. On their return, the Speaker took the chair, and acquainted the house, that, in pursuance of the directions of an act, passed in the 24th year of his present majesty, he had issued his warrants to the clerk of the crown, to make out new writs for the election of members to serve in parliament for the
13
viz.
viz.
[THE LORDS COMMISSIONERS' SPEECH .] The
Speaker
acquainted the house, that the house had this day been at the house of peers, at the desire of the lords commissioners appointed under the great seal, for opening and holding this present parliament; and that the lord high chancellor, being one of the said commissioners, made a speech to both houses of parliament; of which he had, to prevent mistakes, obtained a copy.—He then proceeded to read the speech from the chair, for which we refer to our report of the proceedings of the lords, sec p. 1. After the Speaker had finished reading the speech,
Lord Francis Spencer
rose, and spoke as follows:—I rise, sir, for the purpose of moving an humble address to his majesty, in answer to his gracious speech, in which address I trust I shall have the unanimous concurrence of the house.
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Mr. Ainslie
seconded the motion, in a short speech, in which he observed, that the events which had taken place on the continent, had been rapid and unexpected; and that France had acquired by war, in a short space of time, those accessions to her power and territory, which she had before been gaining under the mask of peace. Still, however, we had to console ourselves with the pleasing reflection, that our own national character remained un-
17
Lord Henry Petty
rose and addressed the house as follows:—To that part of the proposed address which relates to the glorious victory off cape. Trafalgar, and the respect to be paid to the memory of the hero whose loss the country has too deplore on the occasion of that memorable day, I am sure there is none in this house can have any objection, When alive, he united all men around him in the cause of his country; and now he is no more, all men are and ought to be animated with but one sentiment and one feelings, to honour and perpetuate his memory. But to the other parts of the address, I cannot so freely give my assent; and it was, therefore, my intention to have submitted an amendment thereto, which I conceived
18
Mr. Fox.
Concurring entirely in the sentiments which have fallen from my
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Lord Castlereagh
said, that he fully concurred in the feelings that actuated the noble lord in postponing the discussion for the present; and no expression, however warm, that might have fallen from the hon. gent. who had just sat down, should tempt him to depart from the course adopted by the noble lord, or to enter prematurely into the discussion. The hon. gent. seemed confident that he could substantiate the matter, which had been stated in the form of a charge by the noble lord against his majesty's ministers; but they were no less confident, that, whenever the question should come under consideration, they would be able fully and satisfactorily to justify their conduct. When the discussion should come forward, it would be the duty of his majesty's ministers to state at large what they had to urge in their justification; and until then he should abstain from entering further into the subject. He agreed with the sentiments so honourable to the noble lord, and which had been assented to by the hon. gent. who had spoken last, that the house could not enter into the discussion of this question, consistently with the feelings, by which it was then influenced, if the distinguished personage, who was so intimately concerned with its discussion, should be unable to attend in his place during the consideration or it; [a cry of no! no!] He admitted, that if that distinguished individual should not be able to attend till after a period beyond which, from a sense of paramount duty, the noble lord could not put off the subject, it would be competent to him to bring it forward at whatever time his feelings of public duty might render it necessary in his opinion. He was sure, however, that the noble lord would make that time as distant, as his sense of paramount public duty would admit. Before he sat down, he felt himself bound to repeat what he had before stated, that whenever the discussion should be brought forward, his majesty's ministers would be able to justify, most completely, their conduct and their measures.
Mr. Windham
said, he did not mean to enter into the consideration of topics, which had been for the same cause avoided on both sides of the house. In the few words he had to say, he meant to confine
21
[ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]
Mr. Sheridan
rose to give a notice respecting a motion for the repeal of the Additional Force bill. That bill had been tried, and
22
The Speaker
observed, that he must remind the hon. gent. that at present he must confine himself to the notice.
Mr. Sheridan
replied, that he was only about to say a very few words, but he should only now state, that on an early day he would give notice of a motion for the repeal of the bill.
Lord Castlereagh
said, that some alterations were intended to be made in it which might meet the most serious objections that could be brought against it.
Mr. Sheridan
replied that no alterations could possibly render it tit to be continued in force any longer.
[NAVAL VICTORIES.]
Lord Castlereagh
gave notice, that on Thursday he would move the thanks of the house to the brave officers and seamen of the fleets which had gained the brilliant naval victory on the 21st of October, off Cape Trafalgar; and to the officers and seamen of sir R. Strachan's squadron, which had taken four of the enemy's ships on the 4th of November.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, January 22.
[MINUTES.] The Earl of Dartmouth
informed the house, that his majesty would be graciously pleased to receive their lordships' address to morrow at half past two.—The lord Chancellor stated to the house that lie had duly transmitted the vote of thanks of that house, passed on the 13th of May, 1804, to marquis Wellesley, and that he had received, during the recess, an answer from that nobleman. Understanding, however, that that noble lord was now in England, and had been in that house, he thought it would be more consistent with the forms of the house for the marquis Wellesley to deliver his answer in his place, than for him to read the letter which he had received from the noble marquis.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Lord Melville
in pursuance of the order
23
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, January 22.
[MINUTES.] Mr. John Fane
presented a petition from the debtors confined in the gaol of the county of Oxford, praying relief.—Sir W. Geary presented a petition from the debtors confined in the gaol of Maidstone.—Admiral Berkeley presented a petition from the debtors confined in the gaol of the county of Gloucester; and admiral Hervey, one from those confined in the gaol of Chelmsford; which were ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Ellison presented a petition from the maltsters of Boston, in Lincolnshire, praying certain regulations respecting the malt duty, which would be equally productive to the revenue, and relieve them from certain hardships to which they are at present subject. Ordered to lie on the table.— Mr. W. Dickenson, from the admiralty, presented the several papers moved for towards the close of last session by Mr. Jeffery, and admiral Markham, relating to ships of war, during the presidency of earl St. Vincent at the board of admiralty. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—Lord F. Spencer, from the committee appointed to prepare the address in reply to his majesty's most gracious speech to both houses of parliament, pre-
24
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Mr. Whitbread
pursuant to notice, moved, that the resolution of the house, respecting the appointment of a committee of Impeachment against lord Melville, of the
25
[MARQUIS WELLESLEY'S ANSWER TO VOTE OF THANKS.]The Speaker
acquainted the house, that he had received from marquis Wellesley the following letter, in return to the thanks of this house, signified to him by Mr. Speaker, in obedience to their commands of the 3d day of May 1804, see vol. 2. p. 369.—Fort William, the 30th May, 1805. Sir,'I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter, under date the 4th of May 1804, transmitting the resolutions of the house of commons of the 3d of May 1804, respecting the late military operations in India, against the confederate, Marhatta powers.—Your letter, together with the resolutions of the house of commons, has been published in general orders to the army, and the separate resolutions of the house have been transmitted to the several public officers distinguished by that high honour. Copies of my letters transmitting those resolutions, and of such answers as I have received, accompany this letter.—I request that you will be pleased to submit to the house of commons, the dutiful sense of gratitude and respect with which I receive this honourable testimony of the approbation of the house.—The proceedings of the house of commons on this occasion are calculated to confirm, in every branch of the civil and military service in India, those sentiments of zealous attachment to the public interests, and honour, which have distinguished the conduct of his majesty's and the honourable company's servants during the late war.—The expressions which you have been pleased to employ in transmitting to me the resolutions of the house of commons, demand my most grateful acknowledgments, and constitute a considerable addition to the honour conferred by the commands of the house. I have the honour to be, &c. WELLESLEY'.—To the right hon. Charles Abbot, Speaker of the house of commons.
[PETITION FROM BERKS AGAINST AD-
26
presented to the house a petition from the gentlemen and freeholders of the county of Berks, on the subject of the Additional Force bill, and praying its repeal. The petition, he said, was sighed by all the respectable clergy, gentlemen, and freeholders of the county, and had been unanimously agreed to at a most numerous meeting of the county, held for the purpose of considering the subject. It had been found by experience that the act was impracticable, and the petitioners of necessity felt themselves compelled to apply to the house for its repeal. They stated in their petition, that of the whole number which the county, under the act, was called on to raise, only eleven had been procured by parish officers; which had not arisen from any neglect on the part of the overseers, but from the impossibility of carrying the provisions of the act into execution. The petition also stated, that in consequence, a sum of 6,620
l
27
l
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, January, 23.
The lord Chancellor, and several peers attended at a quarter before two o'clock. After prayers were read, several orders were made with respect to the hearing of appeals, and some routine business disposed of; after which the house adjourned till tomorrow, and their lordships proceeded to St. James's, with their address to his majesty.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, January 23.
[MINUTES.]
The order of the day being read, for taking his majesty's speech
28
HOUSE OF LORDS
Friday, January 24.
[VOTE OF THANKS TO THE NAVY, &c.]
The order of the day, for summoning their lordships, being read,
Lord Walsingham
acquainted the house, that his noble friend lord Hawkesbury, who had given notice of his intention to bring forward a motion for the thanks of the house to vice-admiral lord Collingwood, and the officers and marines under his command, being that day unable to attend in his place, he had to propose that the said order be postponed; he added, it was the intention of his noble friend to appear in his place on Monday, when he would acquaint their lordships with the particular day on which he would bring forward that motion. Before he sat down, he begged to enquire of any noble lord, whether it was the intention of a noble earl (Cowper) then absent, on whose motion the house stood summoned for Monday, to bring, forward his proposed motion on that day.
Lord Holland
observed, that, in the absence of his noble friend (earl Cowper), who was that day prevented from attending, by a slight indisposition, he had authority to state, that the noble earl did not intend, for obvious reasons, to bring on his motion upon that day. Under that impression, therefore, he had no hesitation to move, that the order for summoning their lordships, for Monday, be discharged. At a future opportunity, his noble friend would acquaint their lordships with his intentions respecting the motion in question.—Relative to the intended postponement of the motion, which stood for that day,
The Duke of Norfolk
addressed a few observations to the house. He thought some particular reason should be assigned, for deferring a motion of the peculiar na-
29
The Lord Chancellor
quitted the woolsack, and shortly observed, that the noble lord in question had conducted himself in every step he had occasion to take in the business, with the greatest propriety and respect towards those who were to be the object of their lordships' thanks; that he himself, and, he was persuaded, all their lordships entertained the highest possible sense of their most invaluable services; and he doubted not, but his noble friend could assign adequate reasons for the proceeding of that night.—The order in question was then postponed. and their lordships adjourned till Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, January 24.
[MINUTES.] The Speaker,
on taking the chair, stated that the house having, pursuant to order, waited on his majesty, with their address on the subject of his gracious speech, his majesty was pleased to return the following most gracious answer: "Gentlemen, I thank you for this dutiful and "loyal address. Your condolence on the loss of my late brother the duke of Gloutester, affords a new proof of your attachment to my person and family. Your cordial concurrence in my disposition to cultivate at all times an intimate connection with the emperor of Russia, gives
30
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.]
A message from the lords presented at the table, a copy of the answer delivered in by lord Melville to certain articles of impeachment preferred against him by the house of commons. The answer stated, "that Henry lord viscount Melville, saving and reserving to himself all just exceptions in manner and form to the said articles of impeachment, and saving and reserving to himself such privileges as he is entitled to as a peer of the realm, for answer doth allege, that he is not guilty of all or any of the supposed crimes charged in the said articles; and this he is ready to prove. And he submits himself and his cause to that right hon. house; and prays that he may be discharged henceforth, and acquitted of the said charges."
Mr. Whitbread
moved, that the answer just read from the chair be referred to the committee for drawing up the impeachment; and that they do report their opinion on the same towards the further proceedings to be had in the impeachment.—Ordered.
[HONOURS TO MR. PITT.] Mr. Henry
31
gave notice, that he should, on Monday, bring forward a motion which related to a subject that had caused the greatest grief and melancholy throughout the country: he meant the death of that illustrious personage the late chancellor of the exchequer. It was his intention, he said, to move, that some signal mark of public respect should be shewn to the memory of that great man.
Lord Castlereagh
alluding to a motion of which a noble lord (H. Petty) had given notice for Monday, rose to enquire whether it was the intention of that noble lord to bring it forward? At the time the notice was given, he observed that the noble lord did not seem disposed to press the question upon that precise day. As a matter of personal convenience to himself and other friends who certainly would be ill able to enter into the discussion of such a subject on Monday, he hoped the noble lord would agree to a farther postponement.
Mr. Fox
assented to the propriety of the postponement required, for the reasons alluded to by the noble lord. It was no doubt highly desirable that the consideration of the question to which the noble lord referred, should take place on an early day. He knew that it was his noble friend's intention to bring it forward as early as possible, but certainly not on Monday. Adverting to the notice of an hon. gent. (Mr. Lascelles) for that day, he submitted whether it would not be more proper to postpone that notice until after the discussion of the motion proposed by his noble friend, which naturally claimed the precedency. He felt, however, that it was not for him to dictate to the hon. gent. But it was for that hon. gent. and those who thought with him, to consider whether the motion they had it in contemplation to bring forward, might not involve points, the discussion of which would more properly belong to the question announced by his noble friend; whether, in fact, it might not be of such a nature as many gentlemen could not assent to, without a gross violation of their public duty.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, January 25.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Parr, from the African Company, presented the annual accounts of that company, for the year 1804.—Mr. Meheux, from the India Board, presented certain papers relating to the nabob of Oude, moved for by Mr. Paull.
32
[COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.] Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of the committee of supply,,and moved a resolution, that a supply be granted to his majesty for the service of the ensuing year;" which was agreed to. Mr. Huskisson then moved, "that the house should, on Monday, resolve itself into a committee, to consider further of the supply to be granted to his majesty."
Mr. Grey
said, he should leave it to the consideration of the hon. gent. whether it would be right to proceed so immediately to vote the supplies, under the present circumstances of affairs. At the same time that he threw out this suggestion, it was his wish, that the public business should be forwarded with all the expedition that was possible, and he should be sorry to cause any unnecessary delay, at a time when decision and promptitude were so necessary. He thought, however, that it. would not be proper that the house should go into a committee for raising the supplies of the year, at least, until it was known who were to have the management of the supplies when granted, and who were to be responsible for the direction and application of them.
Lord Castlereagh
said, that whatever reasons might at present appear to the mind of the hon. gent. to be of sufficient weight, as to induce him to oppose the progress of the raising of the supplies, yet he trusted, that when Monday should arrive, the hon. gent. would not then object to the house resolving itself into a committee of supply, as it was probable that, before that day, such arrangements would be made as would remove the, difficulties under which he now laboured, and the objections he had stated. It was a matter for the discretion of the house to consider, whether they could properly grant the supplies in the absence of the chancellor of the exchequer. His majesty had determined to vest that office, for the present (agreeably to former precedents), in the hands of the lord chief justice of the king's bench, whose appointment would be immediately made out. At the same time, his majesty was taking steps for forming a new administration. Under these circumstances, if the house were informed that the lord chief justice was chancellor of the exchequer, in the interim, and until a new administration was formed, they would see that it was not possible to have his attendance in that house. He, therefore, hoped the house would consider themselves war-
33
Mr. Fox
said, the objection made by his hon. friend had not at all been answered by what fell from the noble lord. What the noble lord had said, about the competency of the house to proceed to the vote of supplies, in the absence of the chancellor of the exchequer, was not at all applicable to the objection which had been made. His hon. friend had not objected, on account of the absence of a chancellor of the exchequer; because such absence might proceed from a variety of causes to which no objection could be made. The present objection was not to granting the supplies in the absence of a chancellor of the exchequer from that house, but it was to the granting the supplies when there was no chancellor of the exchequer, or no first lord Of the treasury. Under such circumstances, the house was called upon to vote supplies, while they were in the most complete ignorance who were to have the management of those supplies, or who were to be responsible for the manner in which they were to be applied. He therefore now wished, that it should be understood, that his objection to the vote, would not be on account of the absence of the chancellor of the exchequer from that house, nor that the office vested for a time in the hands of the lord chief justice, but his objection was, that he thought before supplies were granted, there should be some person appointed, who should be subject to all the responsibility of the management of them, and who should be liable to be called to that account for their application, which the house had a constitutional right to expect and demand.
Lord Castlereagh
thought, that the answer he had given was sufficient to meet
34
in limine,
Mr. Grey
repeated, that his objection was not to the absence of the chancellor of the exchequer, but that there was no person responsible for the application of the supplies to be voted. As to the observation of the noble lord, respecting the embarrassments, and public injury, that might result from any delay, that consideration would certainly have as much weight as it merited, when the subject should come to be fully discussed. What he intended to press upon the house was, that they should not grant the supplies until they knew into whose hands they were to pass, and who were to undertake the responsibility of their application.—The resolution was then agreed to, that the house should resolve itself into a committee of supply on Monday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, January 27.
[MINUTES.]
The duke of Gloucester was sworn, and took his seat, on his accession to the peerage, in consequence of the demise of his father, the late duke.—The earl of Jersey was sworn, and took his seat on the same occasion.—Earl Darnley adverted to the notice he had given on a former evening, respecting the Additional Force act. Of that measure he retained the same sentiments of disapprobation, and which, in fact, were fortified by progressive experience. It was in the recollection
35
[VOTE OF HANKS TO THE NAVY.] Lord Hawkesbury
stated, that not being able to attend in his place on a former day, on which he had given notice of his intention to move for the thanks of that house to lord Collingwood, and the officers, &c. under his command, he had requested a noble friend (lord Walsingham) to move that the order for that day should be discharged; and to state, that on the next day of the house's meeting, he should attend in his place and renew his notice. In doing this, he trusted all their lordships would give him credit, that he could not, in the least, be actuated by any motives of disrespect, or the slightest abatement in a due sense of the inestimable and meritorious services of the noble admiral in question, and the gallant officers and seamen under his command; on the contrary, he was highly desirous to bring forward the motion, on the first moment his avocations, or the pressure of important business would allow him. Under this impression, he then gave notice, that he should, to-morrow, bring forward his motion for the thanks of the house. His lordship then moved, that the lords be summoned for to-morrow; which was ordered accordingly.
The Duke of Clarence
begged to offer a few words to their lordships on the occasion. It had, he observed, been his intention to have given notice, for the first open day, of a motion similar to that of which the noble lord had just now given notice, if such a proceeding had not taken place. Motives of intentional disrespect, or a desire to do any thing unpleasant, did not exist in his mind. When he considered the situation which the noble lord had the honour to hold in his majesty's councils, he was probably a more proper person to come forward on such an occasion than himself. His own motives, for what he had proposed to do, were of a two-fold nature: the first was, a conviction that it was incumbent on the country, on the very earliest opportunity, to express their grateful sense, in the strongest terms, of the great and important services of these noble officers, and the different officers and men under their command, who achieved the glorious victory of the 21st of October, and of which, he
36
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, January 27.
[MINUTES.]
A new writ was ordered to be issued for the election of a burgess to serve in parliament for the University of Cambridge, in the room of the right hon. William Pitt, deceased.—Mr. Jeffery gave notice, that he would, to-morrow, move that the order made on the 22d of this month, for the production of certain naval papers, be discharged.—A petition of the maltsters and makers of malt, in the town and county of Monmouth, was presented and read; setting forth, that the act of the 42d of his present majesty, relative to the making of malt, is productive of the most injurious consequences to the manufacture, and subjects the fair trader to great difficulties and hardships, without any adequate advantage to the revenue. Ordered to lie upon the table.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Paull
moved, that the papers ordered by the votes of the house on the 25th and 28th of June last, be printed for the use of the members; which was accordingly ordered. After a short pause, the hon. gent. rose again, and said:—No person sir, can be more convinced than I am, of the inutility, the inexpediency, the danger, of moving for many papers relative to any transaction, more especially, if connected with India; still, however I may deprecate delay, in a question of so much importance, I am under the necessity of moving for a few
37
38
Mr. Whitshead Keene
cordially seconded the motions of the hon. member, to whom the house and the public, he conceived, were much indebted, and for whose talents he entertained great respect. He doubted not but that his motives were pure and honourable, and such he hoped ever to find them.
Mr. Paull
trusted the house would excuse him for saying a very few words regarding himself. He assured the hon. seconder, the house, and the public, that he dared the breath of calumny to impute to him, with justice, any motives but those of a public nature. He bore no animosity to lord Wellesley personally, he would exert his honest endeavours to prosecute him to conviction, as the enemy to the happiness and prosperity of India, and to the best interests of the mother country; he could consider him in no light but that of a great state delinquent, in the situation that Mr. Hastings stood on his return from abroad, with this essential difference, that what was undefined crime in the case of Mr. Hastings, was positive criminality in the case of lord Wellesley. The latter could plead no error in judgment, no ignorance of the laws of his country, having been a member of the British parliament when the articles of impeachment were voted against Mr. Hastings. One word more, said the hon. gent. and I have done. I stand, sir, proud of acting with the party to which I belong, and I take this opportunity of declaring in the face of this house, that with the Nabob of Oude, or with any potentate on the continent of ill-fated India) I am as unconnected as with
39
Sir T. Metcalfe
said, that similar motions to those now brought forward had led to nothing but great trouble and enormous expence. He trusted, therefore, that the house would pause before it would consent to grant papers, under such circumstances, to any individual, however respectable he might be. This was one objection he felt to the motions of the hon. gent. There was another too, which equally weighed within his mind. The papers, that had already been produced, had got into the hands of translators, through whom the French government had obtained the information they contained; a circumstance that had proved materially prejudicial to the interests of the Company. The importance of it to the French government was such, that Bonaparte would have given half the revenues of France to have obtained it. Besides, he should ask, whether the present was a proper time to agitate such questions? Under the influence of these objections, he should feel it his duty to divide the house. When a member was conscious of being actuated by a sense of duty, he should not be ashamed to avow his feelings. The hon. gent. had said, that the papers, when produced, would criminate the conduct of the noble marquis; but this he begged leave to deny, as he was convinced in his conscience that no one of them would affect the public or private character of that noble lord; and if it were possible for him to attend in that house, he was sure he would say in reply to the motions, 'give all the papers.' Besides, it would have the most dangerous effect, if it should be thought on the continent of India, that all the treaties and engagements that had been entered into with the native powers, could be rescinded by a vote of parliament. It was certainly competent to parliament to enquire into the conduct of the marquis Wellesley; but this was not the time, and for all these reasons he should certainly take the sense of the house.
Mr. Francis
said, he was not in the house when the motions were proposed; but as in adverting to the mischiefs that had arisen from similar motions, the hon. baronet seemed to allude to those made by
40
Mr. Paull
said, the conduct of the worthy bart. excited his utmost astonishment; an astonishment not unmixed with some degree of indignation. Did the hon. bart. mean to crush this business by a side wind? If he did, he was very much mistaken. The refusal of the papers would avail lord Wellesley nothing. My wish, sir, said the hon. gent. is to accompany assertion with proof, which the hon. bart. seems to wish to prevent; but opposition can only make me more zealous, an opposition especially of this sort, an opposition completely and entirely unforeseen and unexpected; as the noble lord who presides at the board of
41
Mr. Wallace
corroborated the statement of the hon. gent. and could see no reasonable objection to the production of the papers. He, however, wished the hon. gent. would omit in the last motion the words "secret service money," and allow "Durbar charges" instead.
Mr. Paull
replied he could have no possible objection, provided "the secret ser- "vice money," if any, was included under the head of "Durbar charges." He did not stickle, he said, for terms, provided the substance was the same; he looked only to substantial justice between lord Wellesley and the public; and, in conclusion, added, that nothing could deter him from proceeding in the line of conduct he had lain down for himself.—The sense of the house being decidedly in favour of Mr. Paull's motions, sir T. Metcalfe withdrew his intention of a division, and the whole of the papers were accordingly ordered and agreed to.
[FUNERAL HONOURS To Mr. PITT.]—Mr. Henry Lascelles
rose, and spoke to the following effect:—Sir, in rising to submit to the consideration of the house, that motion of which I gave notice on a former occasion, it is my most anxious wish so to conduct myself in this melancholy business, as to avoid giving any occasion for the discussion of points, on which there has been a considerable difference of opinion; or for at all reviving those political animosities which we have had too often occasion to regret. I should be unwilling to disturb the manes of that great man by dissentions. I mean now simply to propose, that which I am sure the country anxiously expects, that some signal mark of our respect and gratitude shall be paid to the memory of that illustrious character, whose loss we have now to deplore. I am sure that this sentiment is generally felt throughout the nation. I have every where witnessed the feelings of the deepest regret upon this melancholy occasion. We have lost a man of the purest and most disinterested patriotism, of the most exalted talents, whose energy and whose firmness
42
The Marquis of Titchfield
rose to second the motion. He had opposed the measures of the right hon. gent. during a great part of his political career, but was not, however, disposed to refuse any consistent mark of respect, as a tribute to the integrity of his character, and his rare and transcen-
43
Lord Folkestone
rose, and said: Mr. Speaker, I cannot, consistently with my feelings of public duty, agree to the motion which you have just read; I greatly commend the manner in which the hon. gent. has brought it forward, and in opposing it I will endeavour to follow his example, to avoid ripping open old sores, renewing ancient differences, and bringing on discussions which will be disagreeable to all sides of the house. With this view I will merely state, that as the hon. gent. in a general view of the whole administration of Mr. Pitt, thinks he has rendered the country such service as to deserve so signal a mark of gratitude and respect as that which he has proposed, I, on the other hand, taking his whole administration into view, and considering the state of the country as it came into his hands, and that in which he has left it, cannot agree to acknowledge any service, and therefore must refuse my assent to the motion; and I feel this, sir, so strongly, that if any one other gentleman thinks with me on this subject, I will certainly count out the house upon this question.
Lord Lovaine
was so completely convinced of the great and brilliant talents of the lamented object of the motion, that he could not content himself with giving a silent vote on the occasion. He most heartily concurred in the motion.
Mr. I. H. Browne
said he had had the honour of a seat in that house, during the whole period in which the right hon. gent. whose memory was now proposed to be honoured with some signal mark of the approbation of the house, had presided in the administration of affairs. During the whole
44
Mr. Hiley Addington
said, that it was not without very great reluctance, that he obtruded himself on the house for one single moment on this occasion; a mournful one to him, as well as to every individual within those walls, and to the country at large. To the question, as proposed by the hon. gent. under the gallery, he should decidedly assent, so far as it related to those past services of the distinguished individual, whose loss they were all deploring, the value of which he had had the means of estimating, the eminence and splendour of which no one was more ready to admit than himself, and which it had been the pride and happiness of a great part of his life to have supported in that house. To more recent measures he hardly thought it necessary to advert, as they would probably be soon submitted to the consideration of the house, and on which neither he nor other members were as yet qualified to form a correct judgment. With this explanation, which he hoped would not be considered as subtracting from his satisfaction in the vote that he was about to give, the motion that had been made met with his most decided approbation and concurrence.
Mr. W. Smith
said, he felt how unplea-
45
46
Mr. Pytches
said, he had hoped, that the supporters of the right hon. gent. who was the object of the motion, and his abettors, would have appeared on this occasion with becoming silence and desolation. He had, as much as any man, admired the brilliancy of that right hon. gent.'s expression, and the electricity of his elocution. He was not however in despair respecting the emanation of some sparks from his genius. He was in hopes that the house would produce as eminent talents, when he contemplated the large spreading shrubbery of genius which was shooting up.
Sir R. Buxton
said, that when he heard his hon. friend give notice of his intention to bring forward the present motion, he thought there could be but one sentiment on the subject, on either side, or in any part of the house, or of the country. He expected from the other side of the house, that when that great man was gone, opposition would be gone also. He had, however, been grievously disappointed; and, to his great surprise, found that the same system followed him beyond his mortal existence. He was sorry to find, that So many hon. members in that house refused to pay the tribute of gratitude to that illustrious character, whose magnificent talents, while they reflected the highest honour on the country which produced them, had contributed so essentially to its interests and prosperity. The reputation of that illustrious ornament of his country, however, would not depend upon the extent of the majority by which this, or any such motion might be carried; his fame would go down to the latest posterity connected with the history of his times, attested by the records of parliament, and immortalized by that constitu-
47
The Marquis of Douglas
lamented, that there should have been any discussion on a subject which could not but create a difference of opinion. Had the ashes of the departed minister been suffered to have remained in peace, the house would have continued grateful for his services. He considered that the first principle upon which public reward was founded, was success. It was not sufficient to say that a man possessed great abilities and great personal integrity; the country expected something more; they necessarily looked to a happy result, and that alone constituted the strength of public feeling. He did not think that any comparison could be drawn between the earl of Chatham and the late minister, which would justify the same honours being conferred on the one as on the other. If he adverted to the state of the country after the seven years war, and at the present period, he should find the comparison materially to the disadvantage of the administration of Mr. Pitt. It was but a very short time since distinguished public honours had been paid to the memory of a departed naval hero. He wished to ask, whether the crowd would have followed his remains to the grave if he had lost a British fleet? Success was necessary to crown every action for which public applause was demanded. The idea of the excellence of a statesman must involve all the virtues that belonged to his situation, and therefore he should ill discharge his public duty, if he consented to give a tribute of applause where he was not satisfied it was due. He wished not to stir up the ashes of the dead, but rather to walk over them with respect. He could, if he were so disposed, take a review of the situation of our finances; he could even advert to a transaction of the last session, wherein a noble lord now suffering under the censure of the house, had been protected by the right hon. gent.: but upon these he did not wish to enlarge. He had clearly and simply discharged his duty, and should sit down with giving his negative to the motion.
General Tarleton
said, that he had frequently acted in opposition to the measures of the right hon. gent. who was the object of the present motion, and whose
48
Earl Temple
—I rise, sir, in order to express in a very few words, the reasons which lead me to support this motion. I shall trespass but a very short time on the attention of the house; and, perhaps, upon the present occasion, it would have become me better to have sat silent. Notwithstanding it was my fortune to oppose the latter part of the administration of that right hon. gent. yet I feel happy in giving my amplest testimony to those transcendant talents which he possessed, and which, from a very early period of his life, were devoted to the service of the country. I have also great pleasure in bearing witness to that purity and integrity which he preserved throughout his long administration. In giving my warm support to the present motion, I am convinced I am expressing the same feeling which is entertained by every person of my family, who, connected with him by the ties of relationship, may be supposed to feel most deeply for his loss.
Mr. Windham
rose and spoke as follows: —However painful I may feel the situation in which I stand, I feel that there is a duty imposed upon me that I am bound to discharge. Nothing can be more easy and satisfactory, than to comply with that advice which has been given to all parties, not to let their political hostilities be carried to the grave, and that on such an occasion as this, they should bury all animosities. For my part, the only difficulty I should find in complying with this advice is, that I have no political animosities to bury. Although I join sincerely in admiration of the great talents of the right hon. gent. who is now no more, yet I think that those talents cannot be said to have been fortunate in the result, and, I must observe, that by the custom of this country, and, indeed, by the custom of every nation, at all times, these extraordinary honours are only conferred where there is a certain union of merit and success. This should not be considered as a mere question of feeling, but it should
49
50
51
52
not
53
54
Mr. R. Ryder
said, the speech of the right hon. gent. who just sat down, had made on his mind so deep an impression, that he could not refrain from expressing his utter astonishment. The right hon. gent. had made such allusions to the political life and conduct of the illustrious statesman, now no more, as could not fail of calling to the recollection of the house, the political conduct of that right hon. gent. himself, when, at the most critical period ever experienced in the history of this country, he had separated himself from his oldest and most intimate political connections in that house, taken a seat in the same cabinet, and fought the same battles, for a series of years, with that illustrious statesman, by whom the constitution of this country was preserved, whom he this night had risen in his place to condemn, and whose measures, throughout the course of his political life, he now reproved with so much asperity. He called upon the house, after the strenuous part that right hon. gent. had borne so long in the chief measures of the late lamented chancellor of the exchequer, to witness the part he had taken this night. The right hon. gent. had shewn a degree of Spartan virtue, which he confessed excited his admiration; he had evinced an heroic disre-
55
Mr. George Ponsonby rose
, and spoke as follows;—I feel, sir, most sensibly, a high degree of reluctance in rising to oppose the motion now before the house; and, I am persuaded, it is the wish of every liberal mind, that however men may have differed in political opinions from the right hon. gent. who is the subject of this discussion, all animosities, that have heretofore existed, should now cease: and, if the motion of the hon. member had been merely to express sentiments, on the part of this house, favourable to the moral character and good intentions of that right hon. gent. I should most cheerfully have acceded to the motion. But the question really goes, in my understanding, to pledge every man, who votes for this motion, to approve the measures
56
57
Mr. Rose
said, drat he felt at all times a
58
59
Mr. Fox
rose, and spoke as follows:—I do not know, sir, that ever I rose to address the house in the performance of my public duty with more pain than I do at this moment. I therefore hope that I shall experience some indulgence, if, before I give my vote on this question, I should shortly state the reasons which compel me to oppose the motion now proposed by the hon. gent. under the gallery. The hon. gent. says, that all party feelings and political animosities should be laid aside on the present occasion; I assure him, sir, that I do lay aside all party feelings. If I had any such at this time, they would lead me to vote with the hon. gent. and not against him. At the same time I do not pretend to undervalue party feelings. When a person is convinced that the opinions which he holds, if acted upon, would be productive of benefit to his country, but finds that the only chance of having them acted upon depends upon his connection with a party, and the support which by this means he may acquire, it is his duty to have recourse to a party. He may consider this fairly and justly as the best mode of effectually carrying into execution those measures which, in his estimation, are the most calculated to promote the public prosperity and happiness. But at present it is obvious to every one, that all the motives which are likely to influence me, as far as
60
61
62
63
64
65
Lord Castlereagh
said, that the few observations which he had to submit to the house upon this subject, were not meant so much as a reply to what had fallen from the hon. member who had just sat down, and who had spoken throughout by no means in the spirit of an adversary, but rather with a liberality that was highly honourable to his feelings and character. The testimony of the hon. gent. to the exalted virtue, and the incorruptible honour of his right hon. friend, must be peculiarly gratifying to all those who revered the memory, who valued the fame of the illustrious personage who was the subject of this debate. Upon the arguments of that hon. gent. in opposition to this motion, it was not his intention to reason. This, in fact, was riot a question to be determined by argument. It was quite a question of feeling. The acquiescence of that house and the country, in such a proposition, was more to be looked for from intuitive feeling than from cold reason; and if that feeling did not exist, it was in vain to think of arguing men into it. With regard to the allusions which had been made in the course of the debate to the merits of that distinguished person, the late earl of Chatham, and the attempts to contrast these merits with those of Mr. Pitt, he felt himself justified in saying, that there was a very marked distinction between the cases of both. The different circumstances in which they were placed, must be taken into consideration before any fair estimate could be formed of their relative merits. Mr. Pitt, it was known, had to manage the government in times of peculiar peril, at an era indeed unparalleled in the history of this country or of the world—without
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67
68
69
70
Mr. Wilberforce rose
to bear testimony to the great public virtues and splendid talents of Mr. Pitt, in whom he declared the love of country was to be found as sincere and ardent as ever yet existed in any human bosom. With regard to the assertion, that
71
72
Sir Robert Williams
said, that he was not aware he could make any motion to effect his wishes, but that he hoped and trusted that the friends of the illustrious person who was the subject of the debate, would all attend his remains to the grave,—The house then divided, and the numbers were—
For Mr. Lascelles' motion
258
Against it
89
—
Majority
169
73
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, January 28.
[CONTINENTAL WAR.] Lord Mulgrave
said, he was commanded by his Majesty to lay before the house copies treaties entered into between his majesty and the king of Sweden, and the emperor of Russia, and also of the accession thereto of the emperor of Germany and Austria. He wished there had been a fuller attendance of their lordships in order that he might have fully explained the reason of expediency and necessity, which he conceived to exist, for withholding certain articles which formed parts of those treaties. This explanation he should, under the present circumstances, reserve, until the remainder of the documents should be laid on their lordships' table. He thought it his duty, however, to state now to their lordships, that to the treaty of St. Petersburgh, as it now existed, or at least as it came to this country, there were attached fifteen supplementary articles; of these, the tenth article was never ratified; it was of course, therefore, nugatory, and of no validity: of the remaining articles, the second, third, seventh, and ninth, contained recitals, the publication of which might be injurious to the welfare or the safety of other nations; and, therefore, it had been thought expedient to withhold them. He could, at the same time, assure their lordships, that the articles had just alluded to, were merely conditional and prospective, and did not bear upon any of the points of the question respecting the late transactions upon the continent, which their lordships would have to discuss. With respect to the propriety of withholding these articles, he was convinced no other motive could be imputed to himself,
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[VOTE OF THANKS TO THE NAVY.] Lord Hawkesbury rose,
pursuant to notice, to move the thanks of the house to vice-admiral lord Collingwood, and the officers and men under his command, for their conduct in the action, and achieving the glorious victory off Trafalgar, on the 21 st of October last. In stating the grounds on which that motion proceeded, respecting which, he felt confident, there would be no difference of opinion in that house, he believed it would not be deemed irrelevant in him, before he proceeded farther, to endeavour to pay that tribute of applause, which they all must feel was due to that great and illustrious commander, under whose auspices that signal and glorious victory was achieved, whom it was the misfortune of the country to lose in the moment of victory; but a consummation, so glorious to himself, incontrovertibly established his claim to the meed of immortal honour. That, however, was not the sole misfortune the country had recently experienced. She had the misfortune, within a few months, to lose two of the most distinguished military and political characters that ever graced her annals, at an early, and about the same period of their respective lives; under circumstances, and at a time, when all the abilities, vigour, talent, and energy of the country, was requisite for her preservation. He felt, that part of what he now alluded to, was foreign from the subject he had regularly to observe upon, but so much more strongly the occasion which suggested it, that he could not repress its expression. His lordship proceeded to expatiate upon the character of the other illustrious individual, who was the subject of his recent general panegyric. The whole life of that great officer, he observed, was devoted to the service of his country; and never did there exist a person more fully and variously qualified effectually to forward that service, than the noble and gallant viscount, to whom he alluded. In contemplating his professional character, it was impossible to refrain from adverting to the merits of those
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"Wade through slaughter to a throne,
"Or shut the gates of mercy on mankind."
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The Duke of Clarence
stated, that he did not rise for the purpose of proposing an amendment, or creating a difference of opinion respecting the resolution which the noble secretary of state had introduced, with a degree of eloquence and feeling which claimed his particular thanks. He had, however, prepared some words, which after a few observations, he would read to the house, and their lordships would adopt them, if they thought proper. H. R. H. then went into the details of the professional life of lord Nelson, during the 23 years he had the honour of being acquaint-
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Earl Spencer
said, he did not recollect any such amendment. He was glad that what fell from the royal duke, prevented his giving a silent vote upon a subject of such importance, and on which he felt so deeply. He fully agreed with every thing that fell from the noble secretary of state; but though the country had to lament the loss of lord Nelson, yet he trusted his glorious example would inspire the breasts of other commanders, in every particular, to emulate his admirable conduct.
Lord Hawkesbury
thought it unusual to word such motions so minutely, which it was the usage of parliament to express in the most general terms. He should, however, willingly adopt the spirit of that part of the amendment which recognized the services performed by lord Collingwood, after the battle of Trafalgar.
Lord Hood
rose and spoke as follows; I cannot refrain from troubling your lordships, with a few words, from the very high opinion I have long entertained of that truly meritorious officer lord Collingwood,
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Lord Sidmouth
said, he could not content himself with giving a silent vote upon the motion before their lordships. The events of the last summer were among the most brilliant achievements which were to be found in the naval annals of England. There was not one of those actions which was not entitled to distinct praise; but the victory of Trafalgar stood proudly pre-eminent, and eclipsed the glory which would otherwise have encircled them. He should consider it as one of the happiest circumstances of his life that he had been connected in administration with a noble earl (St. Vincent), to whose judgment the selection of lord Nelson for the command in the Mediterranean was to be attributed. Of the zeal and distinguished talents of that great commander he had occasion to judge, and the result of his judgment was, that no officer was ever better qualified for the important enterprizes which had been committed to him. He had left behind him a name which would ever exist in the memory of his countrymen. The feelings which his glorious but lamented death had excited, even smothered and suppressed the exultation which would otherwise have followed the great event that had. occasioned it. It was one of the great qualities inherent in his character, that he inspired all around him with the same gal-
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Lord Hawkesbary
observed, with respect to the latter part of the royal duke's amendment, the insertion of the words "and for his conduct after the action," would be totally unobjectionable, and generally met his royal highness's idea. The words were, therefore, ordered to be inserted; and the motion, so amended, was agreed to, nem. diss.—His lordship then proposed the thanks of the house to rear-admiral the earl of Northesk, for his conduct in the said action, and to the several captains and subordinate officers in the fleet. A short conversation here took place between the duke of Clarence, the lord chancellor, and the noble secretary of state, chiefly on the most regular form of couching the motions: H. R. H. thinking the thanks to rear-admiral the earl of Northesk ought to be the subject of a separate motion. At length the propriety of this observation seemed to be admitted, and the motion was divided accordingly. The thanks of the house to the petty officers seamen, and to the royal marines, followed, and were voted with equal unanimity. The thanks of the house were then moved also to rear-admiral sir Richard Strachan, for his gallant and meritorious conduct, in the capture of a squadron of the enemy, &c. and afterwards to the officers and seamen under his command.
The Duke of Clarence
took the opportunity to express his very high approbation of the character and professional conduct of the gallant officer in question, particularly on the important occasion winch gave rise to the present motion.
The Duke of Norfolk
took the opportunity to make some general observations, respecting the conduct and character of certain other officers, who were, perhaps, equally deserving of the praise and the gratitude of their country. He alluded to
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The Earl of St. Vincent
said a few words in consequence of what fell from the noble duke, but in so low a tone, that we could scarcely catch a word from him. He seemed to express his sense of the merits of Sir R. Calder, as an officer; but to be of opinion, that to topic alluded to, with a reference to the good of his Majesty's naval service, should not be made matter of parliamentary discussion.—The question was then put; the thanks to sir R. Strachan. &c. were voted unanimously, and the lord chancellor was desired to communicate them in the usual way.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, January 28.
[NAVAL ADMINISTRATION OF EARL ST. VINCENT.] Mr. Jeffery
in pursuance of his notice of yesterday, called the attention of the house to the order of the 22d inst. for the printing of certain papers, relative to earl St. Vincent, which it was his wish should be discharged. It was not his intention, however, to press this on the house, without shewing his reasons for such a proceeding, which he trusted would prove as satisfactory to the house as they appeared forcible and convincing to his mind. In the first place, he insisted that the sole design of producing those papers was to gain time. From the commencement of this business to the present moment, procrastination seemed to have been the great object of lord St. Vincent and his friends. He could afford no better proof of this than by referring to those voluminous papers, that had been laid on the table, from time to time, and of which, by far the greater part bore not the most dis-
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Mr. Tierney
here called the hon. gent.
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The Speaker
was of opinion that the hon. member was at perfect liberty to assign reasons for his motion, and so long as he confined himself to that object, thought he was perfectly in order.
Mr. Jeffrey
then continued, and insisted that at a tone when our great national interests were so much at stake, it was the duty of every man to watch with particular care over the interests of that department of the public service on which our safety as well as glory depended. He did not wish to give offence to any member; nor did he think it necessary to extend his explanation; but he must repeat his fixed resolution to bring forward his charges under any circumstances, and under any set of men, for he had such proofs as would not only justify him in the eyes of every reasonable man, but would also condemn the noble lord. It had been said on the part of the noble lord, at an early period of this business, that in order to justify his conduct against the charges alledged against him, such papers would be necessary as, he was afraid, would be too voluminous for the perusal of the house, and that were not likely, many of them, to be got from the public offices. He could not help considering this at first introduced us for the porpoise of delay. At any rate this was the very opinion he was at present labouring to establish. No obstacle had been offered to the production of those papers; but they really were of so voluminous a nature as would create great delay by their being printed; and when printed, he was certain would not be read by the house. The hon. member concluded by moving that the papers should not be printed, and that the order for that purpose be discharged. The order being accordingly read, and the question being put from the chair, that so much of the said order as relates to the printing of the papers be discharged,
Admiral Markham
rose, and said, that when the hon. gent. first brought on those charges against the noble earl, he had expressly stated that he should not be precluded from moving for such papers, as might be thought necessary to his lordship's defence, and that this proposition
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Mr. Peter Moore
had witnessed many extraordinary things in his day, but this was the most extraordinary proceeding he had ever known. The hon. gent. not satisfied with repeating his accusation against lord .St. Vincent, had accused the whole house of commons, by saying, that they would not have patience to read the important papers before them. The abstract of the hon. gent.'s argument was simply this: "You shall attend to all the charges that I may from time to time throw out against the noble lord, but you shall not listen to a word of his defence: you shall not even permit him to submit it to the house, but refer it in the most private manner to a committee." What reason the hon. member had to think gentlemen would not read these papers when printed, he knew not, but certain he was it was their duty to do so, and certain he was that it was his intention to read them, as he had done such as had been already produced, and must say that he saw no colourable pretext whatever for the charges alledged, and should therefore advise the hon. gent. to make the
amende honorable
The Attorney General
considered the question before the house to be of very considerable importance; and if any one
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Mr. Serjeant Best
could not allow the hon. mover to withdraw his proposition without offering some remarks on the manner in which he had supported it. The substance of what the hon. gent. had advanced was, that he should have all the papers he wished for on his side, but he will only permit you to have such as may be agreeable to him, and not what on your part you may think necessary to meet his charges. I cannot agree, said the learned member, that this investigation in any shape should be referred to a committee. What! After charges of so gross a nature, and conveyed in language, that, to say the best of it, might have better been omitted, shall you say that the papers on which the refutation of those allegations so materially depends, shall not be printed? Ought not the vindication to be as public as the charges? The wisdom and the justice of the house required it, and he was only surprised that a contrary proposition should have been for a moment entertained. The house might easily see, from the spirit in which the motion had been made, that it was unworthy of being entertained. He never, for his own part, had seen the papers, but he certainly had no doubt, from the testimony of time hon. gent. behind him (admiral Markham) that they were necessary to the vindication of the noble lord, and would sufficiently answer that purpose. As a proof how ready the hon. gent. was to make charges without consideration, he had only to refer to the charge he had just made of procrastination, against the house itself. He would ask if it was the intention of this house to procrastinate when they ordered those papers to be printed? This certainly was not an auxiliary step to the procrastination complained of by the hon. gent.
Sir W. Milner
observed, that the noble earl who was time subject of debate, had for his services been favoured with the freedom of the city of York which he had the honour to represent, and his
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Mr. Jeffery
again rising, said that there was not a single paper that could be brought forward thatg would vindicate the noble lord that he did not wish to be laid on the table; but maintained, that great procrastination had taken place last session on this question. More papers it appeared were still wanting, and a book must be also had which nobody knew of but the hon. member himself. He again pledged himself, in the most pointed terms, not only to bring forward the charges he had made against lord St. Vincent when in office, but no substantiate them to the satisfaction of the house. The papers before the house he maintained were irrelevant to the subject. The noble lord had put an end to the system that had before followed; but what did be substitute in its room? The noble lord had declared that he would build 50 sail of the line; but had he produced 40? had he produced 30? had be produced 20? had be produced one?—
The Speaker
here interrupted the hon. member by observing, that he was going too far beyond the bounds assigned him by the rules of the house; and that he felt it his duty to confine the hon. member to the question.
Sir W. Young
thought it a new mode of proceeding, to judge of the relevancy of papers before the question came to be tried. The person competent to judge of the relevancy of those papers was not the man who stood forward as the accuser, but the person who was accused; and it would be time enough for the house to judge of their relevancy when they should be printed, and come before the house in a regular manner. The proceeding of the hon. member he considered as a transgression of the principles of natural justice.
Mr. Tierney
regarded the accusation brought against the noble lord, of procrastination, as a gross and scandalous calumny. The hon. gent. seemed so confident in his own abilities as not only to think himself adequate to the management of the prosecution in this arduous case, but was also anxious to have the direction and arrangement a greater degree of diffidence to the hon. gent., and advised him to be satisfied with taking the lead in the prosecution. It had been shrewdly suspected,
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Mr. Jeffery
assured gentlemen that nothing would give him greater satisfaction than the production of any paper that would justify the noble lord; but the papers in question he was contending were not of that description, when
The Speaker
again interfered, informing the hon, member, that if he apprehended himself to have been misconceived in any respect, he was at liberty to explain; but that it was a transgression of order to proceed beyond the mere limits of explanation.
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Mr. Jeffrey
then begged to be permitted to say a single word respecting the charge brought against him relative to his motives in originating this business. He was ready to assure the house, that he had taken in up without premeditation [a laugh], and in consequence of no previous consultation with any person. He had never read any of the papers in office, and had only spoken from his general knowledge of the subject.
Mr. W. Dickenson
jun. corroborated this testimony so far as related to the admiralty, assuring the house, that the hon. member had had no communication with that office.—The hon. gent. was then permitted to withdraw his motion.
[CONTINENTAL WAR] Lord Castlereagh
presented, in pursuance of his majesty's command, Copies of the Treaties entered into by his majesty with various powers on the continent, with other official papers relative to that subject; correct copies of which will be found in the Appendix to this volume.—The noble lord said he wished to offer a few observations with regard to the course of proceeding on the discussion of these important papers, and of the conduct to which they referred, and also of the nature of the information which parliament might wish to posses on the subject. It was his most anxious wish, and the most anxious wish of those with whom he had the honour to act, that every thing which could tend to elucidate the great transactions on the continent during the last six months, should be before the house. He trusted that it was not with vain confidence that he and his colleagues looked to a result of the investigation creditable and honourable to themselves. But it was due to the character of the country, it was due in justice to other nations, that some disclosure of considerable delicacy should be withheld. It would therefore not be expedient to lay on the table all the discussions that had taken place with the continental powers since the close of the year 1804. In any situation of Europe the complete disclosure of these discussions would be unnecessary, but in its present situation, it would be peculiarly incompatible with the interests of some of those powers whom we ought to respect. For himself, he regretted, that the discussion of this question did not, in some degree, take place on the first night of the session, as it would have clearly pointed out to the attention of ministers, those
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Mr. Fox
observed, that from the nature of the subject which had been opened by the noble lord, it was impossible there should be any discussion on it at present, because many of the papers which had been alluded to were not yet before the house; neither was the nature of them at present perfectly known; and as to those which were before the house, they would require time for their perusal, and this must be done before a judgment was formed of the merits of the engagements entered into by the different powers. The question, therefore, which might arise out of them, must be deferred a while; and other questions should be previously determined—Whether the papers already brought forward, and those promised to be added to them, would be sufficient? or whether others might be desirable? And that again might depend on another question, which was, whether, if desirable, they could with propriety be laid before the house? All these matters must be decided before the general question of the conduct of the allies could be considered, as far as Great Britain had any share in their operations. And this appeared to him to answer the observation of the noble lord, as to the regret he seemed to feel that the subject was not discussed on the first night of the session: for either in the view of the case with reference to the papers themselves, or the conduct which followed the agreement to which they related, it was out of the question, until the house had a full perusal of them; but the amendment intended to have been submitted to the house by his noble friend (lord H. Petty) was calculated to have called
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Mr. Grey
said, he supposed that the papers already presented would be printed and delivered in the usual way. He did not exactly understand, whether or not the noble lord had produced those papers which related to paints of the confederacy that had not been acted upon, as well as to those which had. He had listened with considerable attention, while the clerk had been reading the titles of these papers. He had heard him mention treaties between Great Britain and Sweden; treaties between Great Britain and Russia, and the accession of Austria to one of the latter; but he had not heard him state any direct treaty between the king of Great Britain and the emperor of Austria. He wished to know from the noble lord, whether or not this was an omission.
Lord Castlereagh
in explanation, informed the hon. member, that these papers had been compiled from official acts, and not from correspondences. The hon. gent. would find, that there were three treaties between Great Britain and Sweden, and one treaty between Great Britain and Russia, to which latter treaty, Austria having acceded, it was thereby effectually constituted a treaty between Great Britain and Austria.—As he was on his legs, he should explain a circumstance connected with these treaties. The treaty with Russia consisted of 15 articles, one of which not having been ratified, the remaining 14 only were binding. Of these 14, only 9 had been laid on the table; the remaining 5 being of a complexion, which would render the exposure of them a dereliction of the trust reposed in the administration of this country, of which declaration on his part, the hon. gent. would soon have an opportunity of ascertaining the ground.
Mr. Fox
wished to learn, whether any thing was now before the house, or intended to be laid hefore the house, relative to the orders sent to the British troops on the continent, either in Hanover or elsewhere.
Lord Castlereagh
said, that the papers, at present brought forward, were confined to official acts; if the hon. gent. wished any information on the subject to which he alluded, he should be happy to received his commands.
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Mr. Wickham
asked how the troops of the continent were composed, as to numbers, at the commencement of the campaign?
Lord Castlereagh
said, that the amount of the force on the continent, exclusive of British, Swedish, and the minor military powers of Germany, which his majesty's government had reason to expect were actually in the field on the 1st of October last, formed an aggregate of only 5000 short of 500,000 men; that is to say, 180,000 Rassinus, and 315,000 Austrians, exclusive of 20,000 militia in the Tyrol; and what rendered this credible to his majesty's ministers was, that in the month of June they were assured, in an official note, received by his majesty's government from the Austrian ambassador at the court of London, that the effective force of that power, actually in the field, was 200,000 men, and that it was expected in the course of the month to carry it up to 300,000 men.—The question was then put, and the papers were ordered to lie on the table.
[VOTE OF THANKS TO THE NAVY, &c.] Lord Castlereagh
in pursuance of the notice which he had yesterday given, wished to call the attention of the house to the important subject, which he trusted the house would allow that he was justified in having postponed to the present moment. He meant the transcendant victory gained by lord Nelson, and the glorious victory subsequently obtained by sir R. Strachan, of both of which he felt his complete in adequacy to speak in terms in any degree commensurate with their merits. He would preface his address to the house on this occasion by a short history of the naval campaign, if it might be so called, that preceded these brilliant actions. The operations of this campaign commenced with the sailing of a French squadron from Rochefort to the West Indies, which was immediately followed by admiral Cochrane. This squadron only gave an opportunity to the brave admiral Prevost of shewing how an infinitely inferior British force could defend itself from hostile attacks. A squadron of 18 sail of the line then sailed from Toulon, which was instantly pursued by the immortal Nelson; and although they were considerably, superior in numbers, and in strength, they quitted the West Indies without having attained any object of the least importance. And here it was impossible for him to forget the gloomy apprehensions, that were at that time entertained by
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Lord Castlereagh
took this opportunity of observing, that it was meant hereafter to propose, that some provision should be made for lord Collingwood and sir R. Strachan.
Mr. Sheridan
enquired whether or not any reward was intended for the earl of Northesk?
Lord Castlereagh
replied in the affirmative.
Mr. Baker
objected to this second resolution; that it did not come up to the services of the noble lord, as it merely stated them generally under the term "able and gallant conduct," without that distinct enumeration to which, in his opinion, they were indubitably entitled.
Lord Castlereagh
answered, that this had not escaped the attention of his majesty's ministers. On an ample consideration of the subject, however, whatever might be the high sense entertained by them of the gallant lord's conduct, it had been deemed adviseable, to prevent the establishment of a precedent which might create confusion in some future case where differences of opinion might exist, to conform the resolution to the words usually adopted on similar occasions. The noble lord then
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nem. con.
Lord Castlereagh
then moved, 8. "That this house doth highly approve of, and acknowledge, the services of the seamen and marines on board the ships under the command of rear-admiral sir R. Strachan, bart. in the victory obtained over the squadron of the enemy on the 4th day of Nov. last; and that the officers commanding the several ships do signify the same to their respective crews, and do thank them for their good behaviour." On the speaker putting the question,
Mr. Fox
begged leave to offer a few words. He had made no reply to the speech of the noble lord opposite, because
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Lord Castlereagh
declared that he felt it impossible so speak on the subject which had this evening been the theme of his commendation, and separate that subject from some mention of the conduct of the admiralty board. He trusted he did not go farther in this respect than what he was warranted to do by the occasion. Certainly, if he had felt entitled to express his full sentiments of the laborious services of the distinguished individual at the head of that department of government, he should not have confined his approbation within such narrow limits. He had never the pleasure of knowing that nobleman until he came into office, but the manner in which he had conducted himself, had shewn him eminently worthy of the situation. He had not only been assiduously attentive to the military operations of our navy, but had been indefatigably engaged in digesting and modifying the practice in the civil department; and if he were now to quit the high office which he held, he would quit it after having planted deep the roots of the naval strength of the empire. With regard to the earl of Northesk, he had no difficulty in saying, that though no intimation of that nature had been made to the house, his majesty certainly destined for that gallant nobleman a strong mark of his favour, which was to create him a knight of the bath.
Mr. Fox
thought there was no reason assigned for the delay. He begged it to be understood, that he had not the least intention to convey an idea of any disrespect present first lord of the admiralty; he only objected to the mode in which
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Mr. Grey
conceiving that some part of the noble lord's observations alluded to remarks which had fallen from him on a former occasion, respecting the conduct of the admiralty, and the unprotected state of our West-India Islands, said, that he saw nothing in the speech of the noble lord to induce him to alter his opinion. If the evils which he apprehended had not come to pass, it was owing to Providence or the bad conduct of the enemy. He accused his majesty's ministers of a culpable delay in conferring a reward on rear-admiral lord Northesk.
Lord Castlereagh
denied that there was any unnecessary delay; and affirmed that the allegation was highly disrespectful to his majesty.
Mr. Grey
denied with warmth, the charge of disrespect to his sovereign, which he should be the last man to be guilty of. He persisted in accusing the ministry of culpable neglect, in omitting to reward lord Northesk. Were the merits of that noble admiral doubtful? Was not a peerage immediately sent to admiral Collingwood? Why was not the same promptitude shewn in respect to lord Northesk?
Lord Castlereagh
explained, that the delay was solely occasioned by a wish to consider maturely of the best method of conferring a reward on the noble lord who was the subject of debate.
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General Grosvenor
observed, that admiral Harvey, who commanded the Temeraire, had also distinguished himself most honurably in one of the engagements, which gave a foundation for the thanks of the house being voted. Having been an old companion, and an old fellow-member in that house, he would have been glad if that honourable and gallant officer's name had been also mentioned in the vote of thanks. He should, therefore, conclude in the words of the song—
"How' twould cheer
"Our hearts to hear,
"That our old Companion he was one."
nem, con
[COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.] Mr. Alexander
reported from the committee of supply, the resolutions which the committee had directed him to report to the house; which are as follows, viz. "1. That 120,000 men be employed for the sea service for the year 1806, including 29,000 royal marines. 2. That a sum, not exceeding 2,886,000
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday January 29.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of Mr. S. Bourne, it was ordered, that the house should, at its rising, adjourn to Friday, to-morrow being the anniversary of king Charles's martyrdom.—It was also ordered, on the motion of Mr. S. Bourne, that the house should not receive any private petitions after Friday, 7th March. The Speaker recommended this order to the attention of the house. It was certainly in the discretion of the house, whether it would extend the time for receiving printed petitions further. But in making the
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Paull
rose to make his promised motion, respecting the production of lord Melville's letter, relative to the Company's debt. Many persons might be perhaps disposed to ask, upon what grounds such a young member as he was, should obtrude himself so frequently on the house on the affairs of India. To such persons his answer was plain and simple. He was conscious of the imminent danger which threatened our India possessions, and therefore, he was resolved to raise his voice, however feeble, with a view to rouse the attention of the house to this point. The house did not seem to be aware of the alarming state of the affairs of India. When the debt of India amounted to 14 millions, lord Melville had written to the chairman of the company, re-
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Mr. Wallace
said, he had no objection to the production of the letter now called for, but at the same time he wished it to be understood that in acceding to this he did not by any means accede to the propriety and truth of the observations of the hon. gent. who had made the motion, or to any future motions or opinions that might, by him, be founded upon it. This also he must say, that the hon. gento had not acted altogether with strict fairness, in making his motion so early, and prefacing it with so many remarks, which would have been more properly introduced when those were present who might be able, from the situations they held, to meet them in a clear and proper manner. The hon. gent. had adverted to the cause of the increase of the debt, and touched upon one argument against him, which he wished to in anticipate. He was correct in supposing that war would be alledged as the great cause of the increase of the India Debt, and he had no doubt that when the subject came to be investigated, this would be proved to be the real state of the case.
Mr. Paull
wished to say one word in reply. He had come early to the house, and had certainly waited a reasonable time for those who might be best informed upon, and most interested in this business. It was not his wish to take the house, or any person in it, by surprise; but he had a most important object in view, and was convinced that delay would be highly prejudicial to the interests of the country. If there was a cause of the debt, foreign to the war in which India had been engaged, and if by this cause the public had been deprived of the benefits that might result from the performance of the conditions of the East-India Company's charter, it was
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[ARMY ESTIMATES.] The Secretary at War
presented estimates of the expences of the army in Great Britain and Ireland, on the continent, and the colonies, of guards and garrisons, militia forces, &c. for three months, from 25th Dec. 1805. The right hon. gent. in giving notice that it was his intention to move these estimates on Friday, thought it necessary to state, that he brought them before the house in consequence of the total exhaustion of the funds granted last year for the army estimates, by which an immediate provision was required for the current service. He had framed them on the scale of the last year, and the short period of three months, in order that the new administration might have an early opportunity of reconsidering them and making any alteration they might think proper. Under these circumstances, he trusted there could be no objection to his moving them on Friday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, January 31.
[CONTINENTAL WAR.] Lord Mulgrave
observed, that in reference to what he had stated on a former evening, he should have, by command of his majesty, to lay before the house, on Monday next, some additional papers and documents, relative to the treaties, copies of which he laid on the table last Tuesday. Of these, the prints were ready for delivery. When the additional documents should be before the house, he should have to trouble their lordships with some observations respecting the nature and effect of those treaties, and the reasons for the farther communication of papers to the extent to which they should be laid before the house, and why a farther selection of papers was deemed unnecessary. He hoped what he then said would be sufficient to induce a
112
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, January 31.
[MINUTES.] Mr. W. Pole
presented an account of the expenditure of the ordnance, which had not been provided for by parliament, and an estimate of the probable events of that department for a certain period. The hon. member observed, that his motive in bringing forward this account was, in order that the department to which it referred should experience no obstruction, but that the treasury should be enabled to issue the sums necessary for its supply, until the new administration should be arranged, and prepared to bring forward the ordnance estimates for the year. The account, &c. was ordered to lie on the table, and the hon. gent. gave notice, that he would on Monday next, in the committee of supply, move the grants required.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee of ways and means; the resolutions of which were read and agreed to, and bills ordered to be brought in accordingly.—Lord Stopford appeared at the bar, and stated that his majesty had been waited upon with the addresses of the house, relative to the erection of a monument to lord Nelson, at St. Pauls; to the erection of monuments to captains Duff and Cooke; the interment of the remains of Mr. Pitt, &c. and that his majesty was graciously pleased to express his readiness to comply with the wishes of the house.—Mr. Huskisson presented, a List of Accountants in respect of whom the execution of any process hath been controlled, suspended, or prevented, by authority of his majesty, within the year preceding the commencement of the present session of parliament.—Mr. Keene moved for copies or extracts of the proceedings of the
113
[IRISH POPULATION BILL.] Mr. James Fitzgerald
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the purpose of ascertaining the population of Ireland. The right hon. gent. expressed his wish to assimilate the laws and regulation of Ireland to those of this country, as far as it was just and expedient. To the speaker he observed that this part of the united kingdom was, among other advantages, indebted for a measure of a similar nature; and he was happy to know that the proposition he was about to submit to the house, met the approbation of that justly respected personage. It must indeed be obvious to every man conversant with the subject, that to, ascertain the population of a country, was a grand
desideratum
114
[ARMY ESTIMATES] The Secretary at War
in moving that the house should resolve itself into a committee of supply, for the purpose of taking the army estimates into consideration, took occasion to observe, that he hoped there would be no objection to the proposed mode of proceeding, although it was a departure from the general custom with regard to army, estimates. These estimates were, usually, at least a week on the table, before any proposition was made to vote them in the committee; and such time for previous consideration was no doubt proper and necessary, upon a vote of such magnitude. But yet in this case, although the estimates were but two days on the table, he trusted that the peculiar circumstances of the country would reconcile the house to the course he meant to pursue. When the
115
The Secretary at War
before. he made any motion ,observed, that on recollection he had forgot to state to the committee that there was some addition to the scale upon which the estimates for last year were granted, and this addition was occasioned by the augmentation of the regular army; particularly owing to the transfer of men from the militia, in consequence of the act of last sessions. To this addition he did not apprehend that any gent. would be disposed to object. It would be recollected, that if any part of the estimates should appear to be over-rated; a proportionate deduction might be made in the estimates to be brought for ward in March. The right hon. gent. concluded with submitting the following resolutions; which were acceded to. 1st 134,473 effective men, including com-
116
l
l
l
Sir John Wrottesley
asked whether the allowance to the volunteers was included in these estimates; and also whether any provision was made for the clothing of any of that body?
The Secretary at War
answered in the negative. The estimate respecting the volunteers was brought forward separately last year, and the same course would be pursued in the present. The provision for that description of force, was not so urgent in point of time, as any of those to which the votes of the committee related. No doubt, provision would be made for the volunteer force in the course of the session, and that the necessary allowance for clothing would be included in the provision.—The house resumed, and the report was ordered to be brought up on Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, February 1.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of the committee of supply on the army estimates. The resolutions were agreed to,
nem. Con
l
117
l
118
l
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Wallace
rose, to move for the production of certain papers referring to a subject which an hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) had thought proper to bring under the consideration of the house. These papers, the hon. gent. stated, were necessary fully to elucidate the different questions to which an hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) had alluded in the course of the last sessions. They referred principally to those treaties and transactions in India, upon which it was endeavoured to inculpate the character of the noble marquis (Wellesley) who lately presided over the government of that country. To repel the charges against that noble marquis, and to enable the house completely to understand, and satisfactorily to determine upon the whole of the transactions alluded to, the papers he meant to move for were essentially necessary. The hon. gent. concluded with moving for the production of "extracts of the letters addressed by the governor-general in council on the 28th of August, 1786, to the court of directors, on the subject of the troops employed by the nabob of Oude, &c. together with a copy of the answer of the directors to the said letter in the year 1787."
Mr. Paull
expressed his surprise and dissatisfaction that such delay should have occurred in bringing forward the papers which had been some time since ordered, pursuant to his motion, and wished to know from the hon. gent. why such delay had occurred?
Mr. Wallace
replied, that, according to the terms of the orders alluded to, which left to the board of controul a discretion of considering which of the papers the hon. gent. moved for could be produced, consistently with the interest of the public service, that board had taken the subject into their serious consideration, and as soon as their decision could be formed, the orders of the house would be complied with.
119
Mr. Paull
observed, that the papers he had moved for were so essential to the ends of justice, particularly with regard to the nabob of Oude, that he thought it incumbent on the board of controul to come forward and state the reasons why they declined to lay them before the house.
Mr. Wallace
begged the hon. gent. to recollect, that the papers he referred to had not been refused.
Mr. Wallace
moved also for the copies of several letters, addressed by the residents at the court of Oude, &c. to the governor-general in council; the letters of governor Duncan, generals St. Vincent and Craig, &c. from the year 1785 to that of 1801, together with the political letters of lord Cornwallis, to the court of directors, during the several years of his government in India.— These motions were agreed to.
Mr. Wallace
then mentioned, that as allusion had been frequently made elsewhere to a letter addressed by the court of directors to the governor-general and council of India, for the purpose of annulling the appointment of the hon. Henry Wellesley to the office of lieut. general of certain provinces which had been transferred to our dominion, he thought it necessary to say that no such letter had ever been sent out. Such a letter had, no doubt, been transmitted by the court of directors to the board of controul; but that board had thought proper to refuse sending it to India, and returned it to the directors, accompanied by a letter containing the reasons of that refusal. Drafts of the original letter and the reply it was his wish to have laid before the house, in order that a subject which had been much animadverted upon should be fully understood. The right hon. gent. submitted motions accordingly, which were agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Monday, February 3.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of Mr. S. Bourne the order of the day for taking into consideration the petition, complaining of an undue election for the county of Middlesex, was read and discharged, and the same order fixed for Friday next.—Mr. W. M. Pitt presented a petition from the debtors confined in the gaol of Dorset, praying for relief. Ordered to lie on the table. —Mr.H. Lascelles brought up the report of the committee on the York West-
120
[MONUMENT TO MARQUIS CORNWALLIS.] Lord Castlereagh
in rising to call the attention of the house to the motion of which he had given notice on a former night, declared, that no man was more strongly impressed than himself with the conviction, that the country ought not to be called upon to grant the highest honours it had to bestow, unless the claim to those honours was clearly and distinctly made out. As a general principle, it was wise and prudent, that those honours should rather be given in the contemplation of some splendid and signal services, which admitted of no dispute, than for the general merits of a life mixed with political matter, about which there might be a great difference of opinion. This rule, however, though general, was by no means universal. Some splendid exceptions had occurred, and cases which were not to be confined within the common course of precedents. The case he had now to present to the consideration of the house was not a case of a common nature. The motion he had to make was respecting the honours which should be paid to the memory of a man who had something in his character and the whole of his conduct, which disarmed all party feeling, and made every one inclined to pay him the tribute of public gratitude and of individual respect. The late marquis Cornwallis was a man whose ta-
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122
.Mr. Charles Grant
in rising to second the motion made by the noble lord, conceived himself peculiarly qualified to speak to the merits of the noble marquis so far as they respected India. From his personal knowledge of that country, and from his residence there during the administration of that lamented nobleman, he was able to bear testimony to the happy effects of the regulations he had introduced into the government of that country. The regulations he had introduced respecting property were of the highest importance, and the good effects they had produced would amply justify any encomium that might be passed on that subject. It had before been a question whether property should be hereditary. The wise policy, however, that guided the conduct of lord Cornwallis, in that, as in every other instance, had been rendered abundantly obvious, by the effects it had produced on the prospects of the country.—After a variety of observations, which were delivered in a low tone of voice, the hon. member declared the impossibility of doing justice to the memory of that great man, whether
123
Mr. Francis
The motion, sir, which has just been made by the noble lord, and supported with great propriety by the hon. director of the India company, wants no seconding of mine to recommend it. I believe it is as much in unison with the judgement and feelings of every man in this house and in the nation, as it is with mine. I have many motives for wishing to take some part in it. One of them has arisen accidentally from a passage in the noble lord's speech, repeated and enforced by the hon. director. I find now, though it had not occurred to me before, that I am personally indebted to the memory of the noble lord whom we have lost. It is said, and, I doubt not, very truly, that lord Cornwallis, proceeding on a principle of benevolence, which in my mind is the essence of wisdom, and the foundation of national prosperity, made it his first care to protect the people, whom fortune or Providence has placed under our dominion. Let our right be what it may, I am sure there is no other way to make the possession either profitable or secure. On this principle lord Cornwallis gave to the natives of Bengal a security in their landed property; I appeal to the noble lord, and more particularly to the hon. director, whether this is not the very plan which I proposed in 1776, and which lord Cornwallis has done me the honour to adopt and execute? I am bound to be grateful to his memory for the honour he has done me. In stating other reasons for my concurrence in this motion, I shall confine my view to the Indian theatre, as the hon. director has done. I know it best, and that, on this ground, lord Cornwallis's merits are not only eminent but indisputable. Sir, an occupation of thirty years at home and abroad in the service of India, has given me a claim to an interest in any question that concerns it. He who has served that country, as lord Cornwallis has done, is entitled, on that score, to all the return that I can make him. To do him honour is not in my power. But it is honourable to myself to contribute, if I can, to the only reward that can now be given him. But I am specially bound to it by another tie. Every gentleman in this house cannot know as well as I do, what his merit was in undertaking to go to India at so advanced a period of his life.
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Mr. Windham
said, that with all his respect for lord Cornwallis, notwithstanding his regret for his loss, and his firm persuasion of the many virtues that he possessed, he still very much doubted whether he was entitled to such honours as had been proposed. The same objection occurred to him that he had stated on a former occasion. He thought, that those honours should principally be given on account of splendid talents employed successfully. As for his concluding the peace of Amiens, it could not be expected, that he should think that added much to his claim. Although his services had not been altogether so brilliant as those of some men, yet, when he considered the purity of his mind, and the great virtues which he possessed, he should not in this particular case oppose the motion.
Mr. Wilberforce
expressed himself extremely happy, on many grounds, that this motion had been brought forward, as it gave him an opportunity of expressing the sentiments of gratitude he felt for the eminent services of the noble marquis. He felt great pleasure in hearing the noble lord, and the hon director, as well as the
125
126
Mr. O'Hara
said, that if the noble lord had confined his motion to the conduct of the noble marquis in India alone,: either on his first or second visit, or to both, he certainly should not have had the smallest objection to giving Ins vote for any honours to his memory ; but, when he brought forward other subjects, and blended them together, as he had now done, he could not hut suppose that he must awaken in him, and many more hon. members, who had the same cause to feel as he did, the most melancholy and painful sensations. The noble lord had alluded to the peace of Amiens. For his own part, he could see no great merit in that transaction, nor any benefit accruing from it to the country, nor had he ever heard others speak of it more favourably than as an act of necessity. But when he went further, and alluded to the Union of Ireland with this country, he could by no means give a vote for funeral honours to the memory of a man, who had had so principal a share in that transaction, which he looked on as mischievous and fatal to the interests of Ireland. He felt this the more poignantly and deeply, when he recollected that the people of that country had, not long before, obtained a constitution, which was the wish and pride of their hearts; which promised to make them a prosperous, an independent, and a happy people; and which had, in fact, during the short time they had enjoyed it, done more than was expected. They had, since the union, experienced a very different system indeed; a system the very reverse of what he had just mentioned, and which must, ere long, if that disastrous measure should not be rescinded by this country, prove, from its extreme expensiveness, altogether ruinous to Ireland. When he recollected also the, shameful and barefaced corruption, which was openly carried on, for the purpose of carrying that fatal measure, and which reflected the greatest disgrace on the justice of this country, and called to mind the high part the marquis Cornwallis filled in the scene of that transaction, he must oppose the motion, and thought no one could fairly blame him for objecting to it.
Mr. Huddleston
observed, that marquis Cornwallis was one of the greatest characters, as appeared to him, that ever went from this country to India; indeed his name was Well known, and greatly admired in every part of the world. He carried with him to India that for which his name will never be forgotten, a love
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Mr. Princep
said, he should have contented himself with giving a silent vote on this motion, had it not been for the observations which had fallen from some members who had taken part in this debate, who bad doubted the propriety of the measure now proposed; these observations called upon him as a public man to give his opinion, as well as his vote upon the question; he considered the marquis Cornwallis as great a man as any this country ever possessed. He admired the manner in which he had acted as a public character, and particularly the mode he had succeeded in introducing in India, for regulating the security of property. He had much opportunity of experiencing the effect of the conduct of the noble marquis, and he could not now help expressing these sentiments as a tribute to his memory.
Mr. Fox
said, he heartily concurred in the motion now before the house; but it was necessary for him to express the ground on which he did it, because he should have given his vote on a former occasion in like manner, had it been proposed at the time the vote was agreed to on the memory of Mr. Pitt. This was a testimony to the general merit, of the noble marquis, and not on any particular part of his political life, however proper that might be; and he would observe also, that he agreed to this motion with the more satisfaction, because the words " excellent statesman," were not in it. On that ground, he begged his vote to be considered to be given, and that even, notwithstanding. what had been said by an, hon. gent. behind him on the subject of the act of union; for in
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[PAYMENT OF MR. PITT'S DEBTS.] Mr. Cartwright
stated, that in the motion he had to submit to the house, he should follow the example that was set on the occasion of a former motion, and studiously abstain from any topic that might be likely to produce a difference of opinion; and to insure this the more effectually, he would, as had been done before, adhere to the precedent found upon the journals, in the instance of the late earl of Chatham. He thought, however, that he did not swerve from his purpose, in avowing, that he considered the death of Mr. Pitt a great national loss; and this opinion was certainly supported by the general sense of the people of this kingdom. In making his motion, therefore, he only submitted to the house, what he thought a testimony of the general estimation in which that exalted character was, held. He was free to confess, that if he could bring himself to think, that the vote he undertook to propose, would, in the smallest degree, detract from the fame of that great man, he should never have offered it to their consideration; but seeing, as he did, that a similar vote did not, by any means, diminish the character of lord Chatham, or that his dying in debt had, in the least, sunk him in estimation, he did not conceive, how the same circumstances could have a different effect upon the memory of his son. When the house called to mind, that, for 20 years of Mr. Pitt's life, his attention was wholly occupied in the discharge of public duties, having no other subsistence for the support of his station, but the salaries of his offices; and that, with the exception of the Cinque Ports, he rejected all the emoluments which might have been so frequently within his reach, they must be impressed with a thorough conviction, that his poverty was the best proof that could be given of his virtue. In the investigation of his conduct, which took place in a committee it, as well as the whole house of commons, acquitted him of all blame, and acknowledged, that he came from the enquiry with unsullied hands. This vote, he said, was not meant to operate as a common precedent for discharging the debts of ministers, nor was it brought forward for
129
Mr. Bootle
rose to second the motion. He seized this as the last opportunity the house would have, of shewing its respect to the illustrious character, which was so much entitled to the gratitude and veneration of the country; and he was sure the house would go with him in paying a just testimony to worth so great, talents so
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131
Mr. Windham
felt satisfaction in thinking, that it was as easy to concur in this vote, as it was difficult for him to agree to that which was proposed a few nights since. Every thing that related to great talents, long services, and those abilities that were ornaments to the country, demanded and received his approbation. The present motion had his assent, as it fell within the distinction he had already drawn respecting public honours and munificence. It called for no vote of approbation in favour of an individual for the whole of a long and varied course of public measures and public conduct, in contradiction to the opinions held or expressed by any gentleman, on various occasions, in the course of that public career. No man had a right to call on another for any approbation of that nature, and he felt that every man so attempted to be called upon, had an undoubted right to complain. In viewing the character of the deceased, no one could ascribe to him any low attachment to pecuniary gain; his mind was above such considerations; his conceptions had too much grandeur to admit of any thing of that kind. He did not think that any dangerous precedent was set by this measure. If these debts had been contracted by profusion and excess, by dissipation and vain luxuries, they might admit of a question. On the contrary, they were contracted by no lavish expenditure, no useless ostentation. The great character of Mr. Pitt's mind was too sterling to descend to those means of prodigality; and he even neglected what, in these times, was due to the situation he filled. He had an entire superiority to any thing of the nature of affectation. His salary was not enough to provide the indulgencies fit for his station, and the consequence was seen in the incurring of these debts. Insufficiency of salary, want of pecuniary attention, and the necessary impositions to which he was exposed, must have combined to embarrass his affairs. He therefore considered, that, in the part the house were now called upon to act, they were not indulging themselves in an improper sentiment of liberality, nor catching at any transient reputation of magnanimity, nor wasting the public money; nor should he think that the case, even were they to make some provision for those who were most near and dear to the deceased.
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Mr. G. Ponsonby,
on a former motion respecting the late chancellor of the exchequer, felt much reluctance in opposing the vote. He felt as much satisfaction in supporting this motion. This was not paying the debt of Mr. Pitt, it was paying the debt of the public. For twenty years Mr. Pitt had been first minister of this country, and that house had supported him in the ministry: but for the same 20 years, it had allowed him too little for his maintenance; and when he was told, that there were 40,000l. to be discharged, he was astonished the amount was so little. If he differed much from the deceased in politics, it was always without rancour. He was always just to his great qualities: now he was particularly so, and at the same time indulgent to his weaknesses.
Lord Folkestone
Mr. speaker, I do not very well know on what ground the hon. mover rests his claim to our assent to the motion now before the house. In one part of his speech, he seemed to me to rest upon the ground of
public merits.
Hervey,
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Mr. William Smith
did think that he was called on, consistently with the opinion he bad expressed on the former night, not to give an unlimited concurrence to the present motion. It was impossible for him, thinking as he did, and had always done, of the conduct of the right hon. gent. to vote in an unqualified manner in support of the motion. As to the disinterestedness of the right hon. gent. he entirely agreed in that point with the other members who had spoken. How far the country, however, was called on to make up any deficiency in the right hon. gent.'s fortune, must depend on the services he had rendered the country. If the salary was not adequate, an additional burthen must be imposed On the people. This he was averse to do in, times like the present, let who would be in office. Here, however, every thing must be grounded on the opinion of the services performed, and the gentleman who brought forward the motion, even declared that as the express reason of it. If so, how could they call on him, who did not think that the right hon, gent. had done any service to the state, to concur in the address, so diametrically opposite to his own opinion? He was aware that there might be other reasons for pressing the proposed motion, besides the ostensible one. While they seemed, from motives of friendship, to desire that every mark of respect should be paid to the memory of their departed head, was it not apparent that those very gentlemen were indirectly drawing in the hon. member and the house to compliment themselves? He declared that he should never be induced, either rectly or by a side wind, so to libel himself or the persons who had acted with him, as to give an unqualified vote which might seem to warrant this interference. He wished to speak with respect of the deceased, but when he heard him spoken of as having been the saviour of the country from anarchy,—[hear! hear! from Mr. Pitt's
134
Mr. Rose
disclaimed all idea of ascribing any merit to the late minister for his not descending to the practices of peculation;
135
136
Mr. Manning
said, he was very well convinced it would be much more difficult to repress, than set in motion the discharge of the late minister's debts amongst his private friends, who entertained but one opinion as to the value of his public services, and considered him the instrument of Providence in effecting the salvation of his country; but he was, at the same time, satisfied, that the mode now proposed, would be the most acceptable to a great majority of the people of this kingdom. He bore his testimony to the statement made by Mr. Rose, that in 1801, Mr. Pitt resisted the proposition then made for the payment of his debts. He said, that, during the 13 years he sat in that house, he seldom troubled them at all; and never in his life proposed any expenditure of the public money. On the contrary, in a year of great difficulty, he was the first to suggest the plan, which was adopted by the then minister (Mr. Pitt) for raising a sum of money, by voluntary contributions, which, in the result, amounted to 2,000,000 sterling. After this instance, he did not expect to be considered as a squanderer of the public money, if he supported this motion; though he knew, that if this notice had not been given, the sum now demanded would have been raised with great ease and convenience, by the friends of the late minister.
Mr. Cumming
said, that though he never spoke in that house before, he could not now help saying, that he cordially supported the present motion, on the ground of Mr. Pitt having been a great minister, and at excellent statesman.
Mr. Ellison
supported the motion with much earnestness. Mr. Pitt he considered as a character without spot or blemish, There was nothing about him on which malignity could fix. The country and that house had already acknowledged his great and pre-eminent services. Had he pursued any other profession, he might have realized an immense fortune; but he had devoted himself to his country.
The Marquis of Douglas
complained of the arguments used for the motion, as he considered it solely with a view to acting handsomely towards a servant of the public. He acquiesced in it as an act of the public generosity of a great nation to a
137
Mr. Fox rose
I certainly did mean to give a silent vote upon this occasion, because I did conceive that if a general unanimity had prevailed, I should have best expressed my opinion, by simply observing, that such a motion had passed
nemine contradicente.
138
Mr. Canning
said, he had hoped he should not have been called upon to say any thing in support of the motion. He hoped that in the little he should say, he should not deviate from the candour and moderation so laudably professed on the other side, but used at the same time as a veil to throw over one or two propositions in which he did not agree. Some of the gentlemen on the other side were willing to allow parliament to discharge the debts of his late right hon. friend, as a matter of generosity towards an old public servant. He wished it to be known, how-
139
Mr. C. Wynne
called the right hon. gent. to order ; it being irregular to revert to former debates.
Mr. Canning
said he had no desire to go back farther than to shew, that the agitation of the objects of dissention originated on the other side. It was expected by those who brought forward this motion in such general terms, that it would have been very generally supported. However widely political differences might have ranged, it was hoped that now all those differences would be buried in the grave, and that all political animosities would cease; That it would be said—
—"All thy good
"Now blazes, all thy guilt is in the grave."
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Mr. Fox
in explanation observed, that there was a considerable difference between commenting upon particular instances of a minister's conduct, and animadverting upon the general system of administration that had been pursued, not only during the late right hon. gent.'s official career, but during the whole of the reign. With respect to what the right hon. gent. had said, as to the grounds upon which he wished the present motion to be supported, he had only to add, that he had distinctly stated the grounds of his own vote in favour of it to be, Mr. Pitt's merits. The motion on the former night had stood on a different footing, and been amply discussed on that occasion. The present question, was totally distinct from that, and ought to be decided upon its own grounds.
Mr. Huddlestone
said a few words in support of the motion. — The question was then put, and carried,
nem. con.
[AUDITORSHIP OF THE EXCHEQUER.]
141
called the attention of the house to a subject on which there had been supposed to be some difficulties, the circumstances of which were somewhat peculiar. He understood there were several new appointments about to take place under his majesty's government, and that a noble lord (Grenville) was about to hold an office at the head of the treasury, who now held the office of auditor of the exchequer. Doubts had been entertained by some persons whether the office of auditor of the exchequer was compatible with that of an office of a lord of the Treasury, or that they could be both held by one person, that is, whether they could be legally held by one person. He was not aware of that illegality, nor did he very clearly see the foundation of that doubt. However, it was expedient to make the matter indisputable, and that would be best done by a bill for the purpose. These offices had both been held by one person on former occasions—by lord Hallifax, by the late Mr. Pelham, and others, but the better way would be to remove all doubts by an act of parliament; and, therefore he should move for leave to bring in a bill to remove certain doubts respecting the appointment of a proper person holding the office of auditor of the exchequer, and that of a lord of his majesty's treasury. If the house should grant him leave to bring in the bill, he should bring it up immediately. It might be read a first and second time to-night, and ordered to be committed to-morrow; and any member would then have an opportunity of delivering his sentiments, if there were any objections to it, of which he was not aware, for the case appeared to him to be a clear one.
The Speaker
said the house would excuse him for calling their attention to this subject; but it was his duty, as he felt it, to state what he understood to be the recent practice of the house, which was, on every proposition for bringing forward any measure on which the house was to act, to give notice of its being intended to be brought forward. That being done, the measure, if in the opinion of the house public exigency required it, might go through all its stages, though a bill, in one day, as had often happened; so that the hon. gent. might be as forward by moving this matter to-morrow, after notice to day, as if leave were given to bring in the bill now. This was the modern practice
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Mr. Fox
submitted to the chair, and admitted the correctness of this statement of the practice, which was, however, but a modern practice. It was no essential part of the proceeding of the house to give any notice of a regular parliamentary motion, although it was certainly convenient in practice; but he might perhaps venture to doubt whether the house ought to make so low a bow to a modern practice, as not in any instance to deviate from it, however urgent the case might be.
The Speaker
said he did not presume to state that no member was at liberty to bring forward a measure without notice; but he thought it his duty to call the attention of the house to what had been, generally, the recent practice on such occasions.
The Attorney General
said, that it had been the fashion of the house, for a considerable time, to conform to the practice referred to by the chair, and the question on this occasion was, whether that practice should be attended to, or whether it should be given up to gratify the wishes of the hon. gent. That hon. gent. professed to think, that no notice whatever was necessary; and he wished to have the bill alluded to, read a first and second time on the same day. If such a thing were to be admitted, and the practice were to go on, a bill might be actually passed through all its stages in one day, and if so, what guarantee could the house have against being taken by surprize upon the most important measures? As the bill proposed by the hon. gent. could not really be so very urgent in point of time, he saw no reason why it should be pressed forward so precipitately.—With respect to the measure itself, if he understood it right, it could not be intended so much to remove doubts as to establish a new principle of law, and therefore he thought the real object of it should not be disguised: though in the instances that had been quoted as precedents, it appeared that the individuals formally resigned, but substantially held the offices, yet it was evident that they thought they could not consistently with law hold them formally. These persons acted under an impression that they could not legally hold them. The legal principle was, that no person
143
Mr. Fox
stated that, agreeably to the suggestions of the hon. gent., he should give notice of his motion for to-morrow.
Mr. Rose
said he wished to speak upon the subject of the hon. gent.'s motion.
The Speaker
observed that there was no question before the house.
Mr. Rose
said that he was not contented. He rose to object to the hon. gent.'s withdrawing the motion—
The Speaker
begged the right hon. gent. to recollect that no motion was made, as he had interrupted the hon. gent. in his progress towards making a motion.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 4.
[CONTINENTAL WAR.]
On the order for summoning their lordships for this day being read,
Lord Mulgrave
said, he had hoped when he gave his notice for this day, that the arrangements in contemplation would have been completed, so as to have ensured a full attendance of their lordships, it having been his intention to enter into an explanation, respecting several points connected with the papers which he had laid upon the table, at the same time that he presented to their lordships, by his majesty's command, several other documents upon the subject of the late continental war. He had brought down the papers to which he alluded, and he could not let tins opportunity slip, of giving some explanation to their lordships, upon certain points
144
145
146
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 4.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Wilberforce
presented a petition from the insolvent debtors confined in the county gaol of York., Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Johnson, from the chief secretary's office, in Ireland, presented the report of the commissioners appointed to examine the expenditure of the paving board, of the city of Dublin. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. W. Dickinson presented the first report of the commissioners appointed by his majesty to revise and digest the civil affairs of the navy. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—Mr. Dickinson presented an estimate of the debt of his majesty's navy as it stood on the 31st of December 1805; and also, an estimate of the money that will be wanted for the transport service; for the establishments and hospitals relating to his majesty's sick and wounded seamen at home and
147
[MALT DUTY BILL.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee on the bill for continuing the duties on land, malt, sugar, snuff, and tobacco;
Mr. Harrison
wished to know, whether this bill contained a clause of appeal from the summary jurisdiction of magistrates, in matters of penalty, to the courts of quarter session? In the malting counties, he observed, the persons dealing in that article, were under severe hardships, in consequence of their barley being often sweated by drippings and oozings of snow and rain, and also by other accidents, which were frequently taken or pretended by the exciseman to be taken, for illegal wetting; and this belief, sworn before the magistrates, subjected them to the heavy penalty of 200
l
Mr. S. Bourne
replied, that this bill was exactly in the same words as the bill of last year; but he was not aware, at present, of any objection to such a clause as that proposed; and he added, that, should it not, upon consideration, prove objectionable, a clause to that effect would be prepared by to-morrow.
Mr. Patteson
supported the objections made by the hon. gent.; observing, that the maltster was completely under the lash of the exciseman, who had the penalty inflicted by the magistrate, if he only swore that be believed the malt to have been wetted.
Mr. Fuller
observed, that in all justice there ought to be an appeal to the quarter sessions. The hardships sustained in the malt counties were intolerably severe; and people hying at a great distance were often under the necessity of paying the penalty, sooner than be at the trouble and expense of coming up to London to seek for redress. He loudly complained of sending visitors to inspect the malt, who had an interest in inflicting penalties; and thought the excise board ought to employ proper officers for that purpose.
Mr. Rose
said, that the officers of excise had no interest whatever in the penalty inflicted.
Mr. Patteson
insisted, that they had a considerable interest in the amount of such penalties as 200
l
148
l
Mr. Rose
asserted, that the dealers in malt were not under the lash of the excise-men, but of the magistrates. There was no branch of the revenue in which there were so many frauds, and so difficult to be detected.
The Attorney-General
observed, that though some hardships might have beets experienced by particular individuals, yet it was well known that the very circumstance now complained of was a most abundant source of frauds upon the revenue. The pretences of snow, rain, and other accidents, seldom turned out, upon examination, to be any other than frauds attempted on the revenue. He believed he recollected the case alluded to by the hon. gent., and, if he recollected right, the party was only subjected to one mitigated penalty; as it appeared that the fraud was attempted by a servant, without the apparent privity of the master. It was, however, rather singular, that the servant should wantonly, and of his own accord, have ventured on a fraud, in which, as a servant, he could have had fib interest. Upon the whole, it seldom failed to be made out to the satisfaction of juries, that what was called sweating, turned out to be an actual wetting of the malt; but, at the same time, he was ready to admit, that it might be right for the parties to have the power of appeal.—The report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
[AUDITORSHIP OF THE EXCHEQUER.] Mr. Fox
pursuant to the notice which he had yesterday given, rose to submit his motion to the house, for leave to bring in a bill to enable a person holding the office of auditor of the exchequer to hold also the office of a commissioner of the treasury. The object of his bill was to legalise the holding of these two appointments, by enabling the auditor to appoint a deputy for discharging the duties of that office. He had before stated, that he entertained no doubt himself on the subject. Yet, as possibly other gentlemen might not feel as he did, it was the wish of the noble
149
Mr. Rose
declared, that no man in that house could be less disposed than himself to throw any impediments in the way of the noble lord's appointment to the office in question: on the contrary, it gave him the highest satisfaction, when he understood the appointment was to take place, because he wits sure it would be a most efficient appointment: but with respect to the duties of that situation which the noble lord already held, and those of the situation to which he was recently appointed, no two offices on earth, in his opinion, could be more incompatible, nor could any thing be more incongruous with the spirit and meaning of the law which settled the usages of the treasury, than that the auditor of exchequer, avowedly and obviously appointed for the purpose of check and controul over the lords of the treasury, and other officers connected there
150
Mr. C. W. Wynne
combated the arguments of the last speaker, from a compa
151
The Attorney-General
declared that nothing could be farther from his wish than to throw unnecessary impediments in the way of the present bill. Of all the proposed appointments of which he had heard, the one now alluded to, was that which gave him most pleasure; and if what he had to say on the subject should induce the noble lord to take another office, he should feel very serious concern from the circumstance. He wished that such steps should be taken in the matter as should forward it as far as the hon. mover could expect the business to proceed this night, and that gentlemen should take till to-morrow to consider what would be the most effectual mode of proceeding Afterwards. He agreed entirely with the hon. gent. opposite, that it was far better to proceed openly, under the sanction of ail act of
152
nominatim
Mr. Fox
said, that, for his own part, he could see no objection, at this moment, to the arrangement proposed by the hon. and learned gent. He was aware that it was not orderly in him to say that he wished to consult another person out of the house on what passed in that house. He trusted, however, to be excused for expressing a desire to submit the suggestion of the learned gent. to his noble friend before he entirely acquiesced in it. He at the same time submitted, as it would be completely competent to alter the bill in the committee, agreeably to the suggestion of the learned gent., if his idea should be afar proved of, that, to save time, the bill should be read a first and second time that night.
Mr. Rose
declared, that his objections would he done away by the appointment of a trustee under responsibility.—The question was then put, and leave given to bring in the bill; Mr. Fox and Mr. Williams Wynne being ordered to prepare it. Mr. Fox then brought it up, and it was read a first and second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 5.
[MINUTES.] Lord Lowther
presented a petition from the debtors confined in Carlisle gaol, which was ordered to he,on the table.—Mr. Fox, accompanied by several members of the house of commons, brought up a bill to enable the auditor of the exchequer to nominate a trustee to execute the duties of the office in the case therein mentioned, The bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.—Lord Auckland made a motion respecting the standing order. His lordship's motion was, to take the standing orders, No. 104 and 155, into consideration to-morrow, with the view of suspending them, for the purpose of passing the above bill through its different stages which was ordered, and that the lords be summoned.
153
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 5.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Hase,
from the governor and company of the Bank of England, presented an "account from the Bank of England, of the receipt and expenditure of 7,615,167
l
s
d
l
s
164
[AUDITORSHIP OF THE EXCHEQUER.]
The house resolved itself into a committee upon the bill respecting the auditorship of the exchequer, Mr. Fox in the chair.
Mr. C. Wynne
said, that in consequence of the suggestions of a right hon. gent. (the Attorney-General) on a former evening, he had to propose a clause, which he trusted would be perfectly satisfactory, and would serve to remove every objection that had been made to this bill. The nature of this clause, the hon. gent. described to be, that the auditor of the. exchequer, upon accepting the office of one of the commissioners of the treasury, should appoint a trustee to hold the office of auditor, which
155
The Attorney-General
declared that this clause entirely removed the objections which he had yesterday stated, as arising in his mind against the bill.—This clause, with another, enacting, that any person accepting the situation of trustee, should not vacate his seat in the house, was then agreed to; the house was resumed, and Mr. Fox having brought up the report, it was received and agreed to, and the bill having been read a third time, was passed, under the title of a bill, empowering the auditor of his majesty's court of exchequer to constitute a trustee in the case therein mentioned; and Mr. Fox was ordered to carry it to the lords, which he did, accompanied by a number of the members.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 6.
[MINUTES.]
The bill for enabling the auditor of the exchequer to appoint a trustee to execute the duties of the office in the case therein mentioned, was read a second time.—Lord Auckland, after observing that there was an obvious necessity for passing this bill as speedily as possible, moved to suspend the standing orders 104 and 155, with the view of going through the different stages of the bill this evening. This motion being agreed to, the bill passed through a committee, was reported, read a third time, and passed, and a message ordered to be sent to the commons, to acquaint them therewith.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 6.
The Speaker
counted the house at four o'clock, and there being only 38 members present, he declared the house adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 7.
[MINUTES.]
The house met at 11 o'clock in the morning, when the royal assent was given by commission to the auditor of the exchequer's bill.—Their lordships then adjourned till five in the afternoon, at which hour they again met.—Lord Eldon observed, that several appeals stood over from the last session for judgment, to the consideration of which he had
156
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 7.
[MINUTES.]
This day, about 11 o'clock, the speaker took the chair. Immediately after prayers, Mr. Quarme appeared at the bar, and in virtue of his majesty's commission addressed to certain members of the upper house, required the attendance of the house of commons in the house of lords to hear the commission read, and the royal assent given to the bill therein mentioned. The speaker accordingly, attended by the officers of the house, went to the. house of lords, and on his return informed the commons that he had been present, and heard his majesty's assent given by commission to the bill for empowering the auditor of exchequer to appoint a trustee to act for him in the event therein mentioned.—The house then adjourned till 3 o'clock, when they proceeded to ballet for a committee to try the merits of the petition complaining of an undue return for the county of Middlesex.—On the motion of Mr. Sheridan, the speaker issued his warrant to the clerk of the crown, for new writs for the city of Westminster, in the room of the right hon. Charles James Fox, who, since his election, had accepted of the office of one of his majesty's principal secretaries of state; for Buckinghamshire, in the room of earl Temple, who, since his election, had accepted of the office of joint paymaster of the forces; for Morpeth, in the room of lord viscount Morpeth, who, since his election, bad accepted of the office of one of the commissioners for managing the affairs of India, with a salary; for Portsmouth, in the room of admiral Markham, who, since his election, had accepted of the situation of one of the commissioners for executing the office of lord high admiral of England; and for Tavistock, in Devonshire, in the room of the right hon. general Richard Fitzpatrick, who, since his election, had accepted of
157
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 10.
[MINUTES.]
The new lord chancellor, the right hon. Thomas lord Erskine, was introduced (holding the seals in his hand) between lord Holland and the earl of Moira, preceded by the duke of Norfolk, earl Marshal, and attended by garter king at arms. His patent of creation having been read at the table, and the oaths administered, lord Erskine took his seat as a baron, and afterwards as speaker on the woolsack, when he delivered the seals to his pursebearer.—The house then adjourned during pleasure, that the lord chancellor might unrobe. In a few minutes his lordship returned, and the house being resumed, the malt duty bill, and the pension, &c. duty bill severally passed through committees, and were reported.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 10.
[MINUTES.] Sir Jacob Astley
presented a petition from the debtors in the county jail of Norfolk, praying for relief. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Corry brought up the report of the committee appointed to try the merits of the petition relative to the Middlesex election. The report was, that the committee had decided that 'Sir Francis Burdett was not duly elected, and that George Boulton Mainwaring was duly elected. He therefore moved,
158
[COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS.]
The house resolved itself into a committee of ways and means, in which
Mr. Vansittart
moved, according to the notice he gave on Friday, for a grant of five million to be raised by exchequer bills. He said, it was with great satisfaction he assured the house, that such was the state of exchequer bills now in the market, that the present intended issue would not in the least detriment those now, outstanding; as these bills were intended to he made payable four months after date, and might be taken up either from the next loan, or by other exchequer bills, as should be found most convenient, when the chancellor of the exchequer should bring forward the general estimates for the present year's expenditure. This was no more than a mere temporary accommodation, to enable the present government to carry on the public business, and make the necessary payments to the end of the present
159
[WITNESS'S INDEMNITY BILL.] Mr. Whitbread
rose in pursuance of his notice on Friday last, to move for leave to bring in a bill to indemnify all such persons as should be required to give evidence on the impeachment of lord Melville, and who had served under him at any time, in the Navy Pay Office. He would state the reasons briefly, which obliged him to originate this measure this year, though he was aware that they must, in some degree, be in the recollection of the house. Several lawyers had given it as their opinion, that many of the questions which Mr. Trotter might he required to answer, would, if answered, fairly expose him to the dangers of prosecution. In order to obviate this difficulty, a bill was last year brought in to indemnify Mr. Trotter, and such persons as should be required to give evidence in the case of lord Melville, against the consequences of any criminal prosecution. The hon. baronet over the way (sir W. Elford) had then moved, that the indemnity should extend to civil as well as criminal prosecutions, in order to have the witnesses free from any bias whatever. This proposition of his had been agreed to, and the bill, thus amended, sent to the lords. Some difficulties had arisen in the lords upon the subject, in consequence of which the indemnity, as to civil suits, had been struck out, and the bill passed in this state; the question, however, respecting these civil suits, had been referred to the judges, who were directed to give their opinions within three weeks. The bill had been rejected in the commons, in consequence of the lords' amendments, and he had brought in another, extending to criminal prosecution only, which had passed, and received the royal sanction. In the mean time the three weeks had expired, and the judges had given no opinion; and now, in fact, there was no question before them. In consequence of different events which had lately taken place, he had refrained from coming to the house sooner upon this business; but, however, as this delay had taken place, he must beg that the bill might be carried forward with all possible speed, that it might be carried to the other house, and that the opinions of the judges might be taken, before they proceeded on the circuit. This was the more requisite, as every thing that had come under their
160
Sir W. Elford
observed, that the object of the bill now moved for, seemed to be exactly the same with that which he had thought necessary to suggest last year. His view was to render the witnesses free from all bias whatever, either on one side or the other, and this, in his opinion, was not to be effected without removing all fear of a liability to any danger from any thing they might disclose either by a criminal prose-
161
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 11.
[MINUTES.] Lord Somers
was sworn, and took his seat, on acceding to the peerage, on the demise of his father, the late lord.—The malt, and place and pension duty bills were severally read a third time, and passed, and messages ordered to acquaint the commons there with.—Mr. Graham from the inspector of convicts, presented at the bar the annual accounts of the state of the convicts on the River Thames, and at Portsmouth; which were odered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 11.
[MINUTES.]
A message from the lords communicated their lordships' assent to the malt duty bill, and the pensions, sugar, tobacco, and snuff duty bills.—On the motion of lord Folkestone, the account on the table, stating the progress made by the commissioners for reducing the national ,debt for the year ending the 31st of Jan. last, was ordered to be printed.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee of ways and means. The resolution for an issue of five millions of exchequer bills was read and agreed to, and a bill ordered.—Mr. Tierney rose to revive a notice, which he had submitted to the house above two years ago. He said, that he should on this day three weeks move for leave to bring in a bill for the
162
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Lord Folkestone
adverted to the notice which had been given by an hon. gent. near him (Mr. Paull) with respect to the affairs of India,
163
Mr. Paull
moved, for an account of the quantity of specie and bullion which had been exported to the several presidencies in India, since the year 1797; and also an account of the bills of exchange drawn from those presidencies, distinguishing the amount to and from each presidency, and also each year.
The Speaker
suggested to the consideration of the hon. gent. whether it would not be more regular to give notice of a motion of this nature, particularly in the thin state of the house; because if, hereafter, there should he any objection to the production of such an account, another specific motion must be made to expunge the order. 1 he right hon. gent. thought it his duty to submit this remark to the hon. gent., leaving it to his own discretion to determine upon what course to pursue.—In consequence of this suggestion, Mr. Paull gave notice of his motion for to-morrow.
[LORD COLLINGWOOD'S ANNUITY BILL.] Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of lady Nelson's annuity bill, which was agreed to, and the bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.—Upon the report of lord Collingwood's annuity bill being brought up,
said, that as he was the person who presented his majesty's message upon this subject, he thought it his duty to state, for the consideration of the house, certain circumstances which had come to the knowledge of the late admi-
164
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
who stated that he had long had the honour of being acquainted with lord Collingwood and his family, recommended that, instead of the limitations at present in the bill, it should be arranged thus; that in case of the death of that meritorious officer, 1000
l
l
165
Mr. Vansittart
felt the utmost satisfaction in acceding to the proposition of the noble lord, and he had riot the least doubt that the object to which it referred would meet with the fullest attention from his majesty's present ministers. They would of course not fail to take care that the family of an officer who deserved so well of his country should not be left without an adequate provision; and with that view it would certainly be necessary to provide, that, in failure of male issue, the proposed annuity should devolve on the other branches of the noble lord's family.
Admiral Harvey
observed, that it was no affair of his to consider with what the annuity mentioned in the bill originated; but it was to him an object of the most serious solicitude, that such merit as that of lord Collingwood should not go unrewarded, or that the family of such a man should not be left unprovided for. That the latter was likely to be the case, if the house should not reconsider the bill under discussion, he very much feared was but too true.—The motion was then put and agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 12.
[MINUTES.]
The royal assent was given, by commission, to the malt tax, and place and pension duty bills, and to the bill for naturalizing John de Rickholme.—Mr. Whitbread brought up from the commons a bill to indemnify all persons serving under Henry lord Melville, while treasurer of his majesty's navy, from and against all civil processes, to which they may be liable in consequence of the evidence they may give in the case of the impeachment pending against the said lord Melville.—Lord Holland moved the first reading of the bill; which being done accordingly, his lordship moved, that the said bill be printed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 12.
[MINUTES.] Lord Henry Petty
was sworn, and took his seat, on his election to represent the university of Cambridge.—Mr. Johnson from the office of chief secretary for Ireland, presented a return of the sums received and disbursed by the commissioners of accounts for Ireland in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806. As also several other papers; among which were certain returns from the county magistrates.
166
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 13.
[WITNESSES' INDEMNITY BILL.] Lord Holland
moved that the witnesses' indemnity bill should be read a second time on Monday, and that the lords be summoned.
Lord Hawkesbury
said he did hot mean to oppose the motion made by his noble friend, he only wished to call the attention of the house to this bill, the object of which,
167
Lord Holland
said, he did not object to the proceeding proposed by the noble lord; but, as there was an obvious necessity that their lordships should either pass or reject the bill now before them without loss of time, his noble friend would also be aware of the necessity of having the opinions of the judges as speedily as possible. The earliest day that could be named would, he conceived, be the most advisable to be appointed for the attendance of the judges, in order that their lordships might, without delay, proceed upon the bill, and either agree to its provisions, or finally reject it. After a few words interchanged between lords Hawkesbury and Holland, respecting the time to be appointed, it was ordered, that the judges should attend on Monday, for the purpose of then referring to them certain questions.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 13.
[MINUTES] Mr. Pym and Mr. G. B. Mainwaring
took the oaths and their seats for the counties of Bedford and Middlesex.—On the motion of Mr. Hurst, a new writ was ordered for Steyning, in Sussex, in the room of lord Ossulston, who, since his election, had accepted of the of-
168
[WOOLLEN WEAVERS' PETITION.] Admiral Berkeley
presented a petition of several woollen weavers, resident in or near die clothing towns and villages in the county of Gloucester, setting forth, "that the petitioners have for several years past suffered great hardships and distress, owing to certain master clothiers having, for their own emolument, violated those laws which parliament has from time to time enacted for the preservation and prosperity of the woollen manufacture, and for the due protection of the persons employed therein; and that the said laws have been so violated, under the pretence of their being obsolete; and that the said master clothiers, after their repeated applications to parliament for an indiscriminate suspension or repeal of nearly the whole code of existing laws had failed, at length, at the close of the session, in the month of July 1803, obtained a bill for suspending the said laws until the first day of July following, under, as the petitioners were informed and believe, a solemn pledge and assurance, that they would come forward early in the ensuing session with a bill for a general revision and regulation of the said laws, and owing to which assurance the petitioners forbore from opposing the said bill of suspension; and that from that period up to the present time the said master clothiers have not come forward with any bill of revision or regulation whatever, but have, during each succeeding session, waited till near its close, and then urged the want of time for investigation as a ground for their soliciting a further bill of suspension; and that during this prostracted suspension of the laws, the petitioners have been the afflicted spectators
169
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 14.
[MINUTES.] Mr. J. Latouche
presented a petition from the debtors confined in the Marshalsea prison of Dublin, which was ordered to lie on the table.2014;Mr. Paull gave notice, that on Wednesday next he would make his motion for a return of the bullion, bills of exchequer, &c. exported to India, by which exportation several acts of the present king had been violated.2014;The exchequer bills bill went through a committee.2014;On the motion of Mr. Walpole, a new writ was ordered for the city of Litchfield, in the room of Thomas Anson, esq. now lord Anson.2014;On the motion of Mr. Hurst, a new writ was ordered for the borough of Steyning, in the room of
James. Martin Lloyd, esq. who, since his election, had accepted the
office of steward of his majesty's Chiltern Hundreds.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, February 15.
[MINUTES.] Mr. alderman
Combe brought up a petition from the prisoners confined for debt in the gaol of Ludgate, praying relief; which was ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report on the bill for raising 5 millions by exchequer bills. The amendments were read, and agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday, if then engrossed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 17.
[WITNESSES' INDEMNITY BILL.]
On the order of the day being read for the second reading of this bill, and for the attendance of the judges, who were all present,
170
Lord Eldon
adverted to the till which was before the house last session, and which embraced the same object as the bill now under their consideration. He at that time called the Serious attention of their lordships to the bill, which he considered to be in the nature of an
ex post facto
171
Lord Holland
said, he should not now comment upon the objections made to the bill by the noble and learned lord, as this was not the proper time for discussing the bill. He could not help, however, observing upon one point urged by the noble and learned lord, in which he thought the noble and learned lord was not borne out by the words of the bill. He did not conceive that there was any provision in the bill which could authorize the construction, that a witness giving evidence under the sanction of its provisions would be therby exonerated not merely from civil process on account of the application of public money, but also on account of debts due from such witness to private individuals. On the contrary, he conceived the bill to apply solely in its enactments, as it certainly did in intention, to the discharging such witness from process on account of public money.
Lord Eldon
admitted that the bill did not apply to merely private debts. He, however, wished to put the case of transactions arising originally out of the employment of public money, becoming so far transactions between individuals as to give rise to debts which could only be a subject of contention between those individuals by whom and to whom they were contracted.—After some further explanation between lord Eldon and lord Holland, the questions were referred to the judges, who requested time till Thursday se'nnight to consider of them.
Lord Holland
expressed a wish that an earlier day might be appointed for the judges to deliver their opinion, which he thought would be practicable, as questions similar to the present were referred to the learned judges last session.
The Lord Chancellor(Erskine)
said, that the delay asked by the judges was, he conceived, no more than ought fairly to be allowed, considering the variety of avocations by which their time would in the mean while be occupied. The sessions at the Old Bailey would intervene, which would necessarily employ the time of some of the learned judges and, upon questions of such importance as these, they would
172
Lord Eldon
adverting again to the importance of the law considerations which the bill gave rise to, intimated the probability, that upon further turning over the subject in his mind, he should feel it incumbent on him to move for a committee to search for precedents. In case such should be his determination, he proposed to give notice of it to-morrow, and to move it on the subsequent day.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 17.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of Mr. Francis, a new writ was ordered for Apple-by, in the room of Mr. Courtenay, who has been appointed one of the lords of the treasury.—A new writ was ordered, on the motion of Mr. Pole Carew, for Worcester, in the room of Wm. Lygon, esq. now lord Beauchamp.—Mr. Fox was introduced by lord Henry Petty and Mr. Whitbread, and took the oaths and his seat.—Sir P. Stevens presented, pursuant to order, an account of the contracts for spirits, with the terms, &c. from 5th July 1803, to 5th Jan. 1806.—A bill for erecting a workhouse, and making certain arrangements with respect to the poor in the parish of St. Sepulchre, was brought in by sir J. Anderson, and read a first time.—Mr. Lee moved, "that there be laid before this house, an account of the number of writs issued out of the courts of King's Bench and common Pleas, in Ireland, for the last 4 years, commencing the 1st day of Michaelmas term 1801, and distinguishing the numbers issued out of each court during each year." Ordered.—Lord H. Petty gave notice, that he would, to-morrow, move that the house do adjourn to Monday next; and also, that on that day he should move for a revival of the committee for investigating the joint account between great Britain and Ireland.—Dr. Duigenan moved for leave to bring in a bill for enforcing the residence of spiritual persons on their benefices in Ireland. Ordered.—The 5 millions ex
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[UNION WITH IRELAND.] Mr. Alexander
availed himself of the appearance of a right hon. gent. in his place (Mr. Secretary Fox) to put a question to him on a subject, which he looked upon as deeply interesting to the empire. In a late debate (see p. 128,) that right hon. gent. had expressed some opinions respecting the Union with Ireland, which had excited a considerable sensation, and given rise to much agitation in different parts of the empire. The request, therefore, that he had to make to that right hon. gent. was, that be would distinctly state the tenor of those opinions, so far as they might lead to any practical result, with a view to put an end to the agitations which they had already excited.
The Speaker
felt it to be his duty to remind the house, that, for any member to put a question to another, with reference to any expressions that might have been used by him in a former debate, was wholly irregular and inconsistent with the received practice of that house. It would, however, rest with any hon. member to use his own discretion how far he should deviate from the received usage, and comply with such an irregular proceeding.
Mr. Alexander
was fully aware of the irregularity of his application, and therefore pressed for an explanation, as a particular favour, rather than as a right, with a view to quiet the apprehensions which appeared to have been excited.
Mr. Secretary Fox
then rose and observed, that he had many apologies to make to the house for saying any thing on the subject. The words which the hon. member had alluded to, as having been used by him on a former night, applied particularly to the question then under the consideration of the house, and so far as they referred to that, appeared to him sufficiently clear and explicit. He had felt himself bound to express himself in than manner, to prevent any misunderstanding, because a very respectable member of that house had said, that he could not consent
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Mr. Alexander
declared himself fully satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. gent. and again disavowed any other object than that of setting the public mind at rest on the subject.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 18.
[MINUTES]Lord Eldon
gave notice, that he should, on Monday next, move for the appointment of a committee to search for, and to report precedents of, the practice and proceedings of that house, in cases of indemnity bills with respect to witnesses
in the prosecution of impeachments.—Lady
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 18.
[MINUTES.] Lord G. Cavendish
moved for a new writ for the borough of Knaresborough, in the room of lord John Townshend, who had accepted the office of joint paymaster of his majesty's forces.—Mr. Creevey moved for a new writ for the borough of Aldeburgh, in the room of Mr. John M`Mahon, esq. who had accepted the office of chief storekeeper of his majesty's ordnance.—Mr. Vansittart moved for a new writ for the city of Waterford, in the room of Sir John Newport, bart. who had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds; and Mr. Whitbread moved for a new writ for Stafford, in the room of the right hon. R. B. Sheridan, who had accepted the office of treasurer of the navy; which were severally ordered accordingly. —Ordered, that the right rev. Robert Allott, dean of Raphoe, be requested to preach before this house, at St. Margaret's church, Westminster, on Wednesday, the 26th instant, being the day appointed by his majesty for a general fast in this kingdom.—Lord Henry Petty moved, that this house, on its rising, do adjourn to Monday. Mr. Spencer Stanhope said, that before the question was put, he would beg leave to ask the noble lord for an answer as to a single fact, which he would state without any comment whatever; and that was, whether lord Ellenborough, who is one of the privy council, was also allowed to sit and vote in that department of the executive government, which was in common called the Cabinet Council? Lord H. Petty said, he had no hesitation in answering the question of the hon. gentleman, and to inform him and the house, that the noble and learned lord he had named as being one of the privy council, had also been summoned to, and had attended more than once, the sittings of what was commonly called the Cabinet council.
[PETITION AGAINST THE ADDITIONAL. FORCE BILL.]
A petition of the noblemen, and the humble petition of others the vestrymen of the parish of St. Mary-la-
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 24.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX] Lord Eldon,
on perceiving a noble marquis in his place, rose, and called the attention of the house generally to the situation in which the case of the above judicial character stood before their lordships. The affair was one, in every point of view, public as well as private, of the highest importance, and it was highly proper that the house should come to some determination upon the case. He therefore requested to know of that noble marquis, whether he intended to move for any proceeding relative to the attendance or examination of witnesses in the case of Mr. justice Fox?
The Marquis of Abercorn
said, it must
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Lord Grenville
entered the house, and, on the question being put, his lordship rose, and observed, he spoke under the disadvantage of not having heard what transpired on the subject previous to the motion; but it struck him most forcibly, that, on a subject of such great and various importance as that which the case of Mr. justice Fox involved, some time should be allowed, not only as it respected himself, but other noble lords, who wished to deliver their opinions, for the consideration of the subject. He was then quite unprepared to give a decided opinion as to what was proposed. He submitted, therefore, whether it would not be better to withdraw the motion? but, shortly after, he moved that the farther consideration of this motion be adjourned to this day se'nnight.—This, on the question being so put, was agreed to by their lordships.
[EARL ST. VINCENT.] Lord Grenville
presented a message from his majesty, purporting that, by the act of parliament for granting an annuity to the earl of St. Vincent, that annuity was limited to the two next heirs male of his body, and desiring the house to take the further extension of the same into their consideration.—The message having been read, lord Hawkesbury asked. across the table, if any motion was intended? Lord Grenville answered in the affirmative, and observed that, in granting the annuity to lord St. Vincent, it had been originally intended, as was usual in similar cases, to extend the grant to the two next successors to the title. It happened, however, that, by the enacting words of the act, the annuity
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[LORD ELLENBOROUGH'S SEAT IN THE CABINET.] The Earl of Bristol,
on seeing the noble lord at the head of the treasury in his place, rose, and, in a very low tone of voice, addressed a few observations to his lordship; the purport of these appeared to be, a wish from the noble earl to be informed respecting a point which, he conceived, had made a deep impression on the public mind, and which was certainly a topic of great constitutional importance. He alluded to what was generally stated, that the present lord chief justice of the king's bench constituted one of his majesty's cabinet ministers. He begged an answer from the noble lord as to the fact.
Lord Grenville
said, he felt anxious to give as explicit and satisfactory an answer as was in his power, to the question of the noble earl. He was at a loss to see how the appointment alluded to by the noble earl, was unconstitutional and unprecedented. He believed, that ever since the privy council existed, or even since there existed such a station as that of lord chief justice, the learned lord who filled that station at the time was likewise invariably one of his majesty's privy council. Indeed, the lord chief justice the king's bench was frequently summoned to attend the council on matters of the highest moment; and he was, not only responsible for the advice he actually gave, but was also liable for any omission in giving his advice. His lordship must,think it unnecessary to observe, that what was generally or usually called "the Cabinet," was, under that appellation and description, unknown to the constitution; indeed, it should rather be considered as a committee of the privy council that was more frequently called upon by his majesty for advice. Even that committee the lord chief justice of the land had often been summoned to attend;
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The Earl of Bristol
could not help thinking the appointment highly objectionable, notwithstanding the explanation of the noble lord. To him it appeared repugnant to the constitution, and incompatible with the due administration of justice; and, on these grounds, he should certainly submit it to the consideration of the house on Monday next; for which day it was ordered that their lordships be summoned to attend.
[WITNESSES' INDEMNITY BILL.] Lord Eldon
went over some of his former arguments against this bill, comparing it with the indemnity bill brought into the house in the year 1742, and observing, that such a bill having now been introduced, it was essential, in his opinion, that their lordships should ascertain what had been done
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Lord Holland
said, he did not wish to oppose the motion of the noble and learned lord, but he was convinced that on the search being made, which the noble and learned lord desired, it would be found that the present bill was not by any means, as the noble and learned lord would have it understood, a
fac-simile
Lord Eldon
in explanation, contended, that he had never said that the present bill was a
fac-simile
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 24
[MINUTES.]
Lord Temple, lord W. Russell, lord Ossulston, lord R. Spencer, lord Morpeth, Mr. Windham, Mr. Calcraft, and Mr. Erskine, took the oaths and their seats.—Mr. Whitbread moved, that lord Temple, lord R. Spencer, and Mr. Calcraft, be added to the committee appointed to prepare articles of impeachment against lord viscount Melville. Ordered.—On the motion of Mr. Calcraft, the following new writs were ordered to be issued, viz. for the borough of Inniskillen, in the room of sir W. Burroughs, who, since his election, had accepted the office of one of the judges in the supreme court, at Bengal; for the borough of Plymouth, in the room,of P. Langmead, esq. who had accepted the office of steward of his majesty's manor of East Hendred; and for the borough of Portarlington, in the room of T. Tyrwhitt, esq. who had accepted the office of steward of his majesty's Chiltern Hundreds.—Lord Henry Petty moved, that there be laid before the house an account of all offices granted in reversion in England, stating the nature of each office, the date of the grant, and the period of time for which it was granted,—Mr. Rose
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Francis
rose, in compliance with a habit which had of late prevailed in the house, to give notice of a motion which he intended to bring forward. This habit, he observed, which rendered a previous notice necessary when a motion of importance, or one which was likely to meet with opposition, was to be proposed, had certainly not always prevailed there. But however, that he might not be deficient in any point of form, which had been deemed proper by the house, he now gave notice that to-morrow he would move for a paper relative to the finances of the East-India company. This motion would be founded on a question, and it depended on the manner in which that question should be answered, whether or not he should bring it forward at all. In case, however, it should be necessary, he hoped that this would be considered as a sufficient notice.
[LORD ELLENBOROUGH'S SEAT IN THE CABINET.] Mr. Spencer Stanhope
rose to give notice of a motion which he intended
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Mr. Secretary Fox
wished that the hon. member would state more explicitly the nature of his motion.
Mr. S. Stanhope
replied, that he had not as yet framed it, so as to be able at present to be more explicit.
[REGIMENTAL COURTS MARTIAL.] The Secretary at War
(General Fitzpatrick) observed, that he had last session given notice of a motion respecting the military justice of this kingdom. As this was, in his estimation, a matter of the highest importance, he had always been anxious to have it brought forward as soon as possible. But peculiar circumstances had prevented him from pressing it at the commencement of the present session, as he once intended to have done. At a later period, an event had occurred which rendered it necessary for him to postpone it still farther. Since that event, other circumstances had occurred, which induced him to abstain altogether for the present from urging his proposed motion; for the alteration which had taken place with respect to those by whom the affairs of the army were to be managed, and in his majesty's government in general, afforded well-grounded hopes that the defects of which he complained would be remedied by the executive power. With these sentiments, he thought it would be quite unnecessary for him to make these defects at present the subject of parliamentary investigation. Amendment was undoubtedly requisite in the points to which he intended to have directed the attention, of the house; but, for the reasons above stated, he would beg leave to wave his motion.
[SINKING FUND.] Mr. Alderman Curtis
rose, and begged to ask a question of the noble lord, whom he then saw in his place, relative to a report which had gone abroad on a very important subject. It was by no means his intention to interfere with, or ask any questions relative to taxes; but he hoped there was nothing improper or irregular in requesting the noble lord to say, whether he had applied to the governor and directors of the bank, for information relative to appropriating a certain portion of the sinking fund towards payment of the interest of the new loan? Such a report was in circulation, and had occasioned considerable alarm and uneasiness
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Lord Henry Petty
said, he was extremely happy in having an opportunity of assuring the worthy alderman, and the public, that there was no foundation whatever for the report he had heard on that subject.
[IRISH FIRST FRUITS BILL.] Dr. Duigenan
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill relative to the first fruits in Ireland, and the regulation of Dr. Boulton's charity. This was a fund which had been left about 50 years ago by Dr. Boulton, archbishop of Armagh, to assist in maintaining the poorer clergy. The fund had of late very much increased. The object of the present bill was merely to enable the trustees in cases where the incomes of curates, &c. were below 100/. a year, to raise them to that sum from this fund, as far as it would go. He concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the act of the 29th of George II., relative to the first fruits in Ireland, and for the better management of Dr. Boulton's charity. This motion had been made last session, but had from some accidental circumstances been deferred till now.
Mr. Francis
thought that this might be a very proper motion, but the reason why he now rose, was to suggest to the learned gent. that however unexceptionable the thing might be, it was desirable that he should wait till another gentleman was present, who might wish to attend to this bill through every stage of its progress. This was the practice of the house, and a practice founded not only in decorum but in use too, and might be peculiarly proper in this case, as the hon. gent. alluded to, would in all probability hold a very high situation in Ireland.
Dr. Duigenan
replied, that he was perfectly disposed to comply with this practice, but on the present occasion it was unnecessary, as the hon. gent. referred to, had last session an opportunity of examining this measure, and had then stated no objection to it.—Leave was then granted.
[MIDDLESEX ELECTION.] Mr. Peter Moore
brought up a petition from certain freeholders of Middlesex, against the return of Mr. Mainwaring, on the ground that he was not properly qualified. The ground of qualification was the only point to which the petition went. A petition
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The Speaker
observed, that if the matter of the petition came within the election laws on the subject, then the hon. member had a right to insist that the petition should lie on the table. If there was any doubt on that point, the passage of the act that bore upon it ought to be read, and then the house might judge upon the case.
Mr Pereeval
said, that from the first view of the thing he thought it impossible that this petition could be received, as it followed the decision of a committee, which had been appointed to try the merits of this election, before which this point might have regularly come. It would have been better to have brought forward this point there instead of going on from time to time harassing the house. He had not had such an opportunity of investigating the point of law on this subject as to enable him to give a positive opinion, but upon principle and analogy he thought it clear that it ought not to be received.
Mr. Secretary Fox
admitted that his first impression was, that this petition could not be received, but if it was possible to have it deferred till to-morrow, as he understood it was, it might be proper to do so, that the members might have time to consider the peculiar circumstances attaching to this case. The circumstances were these: a petition had been presented against the return of Mr. Mainwaring, and the committee had decided on the return generally, declaring that sir F. Burdett ought to have been returned. The question of qualification could not come in here. But a petition had been presented on the part of Mr. Mainwaring, sir F. Burdett had declined defending his seat, and the freeholders had come forward in his place. If sir Francis had persisted in his defence, the qualification might have been here brought forward, butt as the matter stood
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Mr. Perceval
complained of the manner in which the house had been used in this business. It was evidently the intention of the persons concerned to take the house by surprise, by deferring the presenting of this petition till the last day, and then only putting it into the hands of the hon, gent. a few minutes before the meeting of the house.
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that this affair depended not on the common law, but on a particular statute, and the question was, whether the qualification could have been properly tried till now?
The Speaker
then read the passage of the act, from which it appeared, that the freeholders who took up the cause in the place of any member, stood, to all intents and purposes, in his situation, so that the qualification might have been tried before.
Mr. Secretary Fox
said that his doubts were removed.
Mr. Mainwaring
contended, that this petition could not be admitted on this ground, namely, that it was a petition to renew a petition that had been presented last session, which was not now renewable; because, in all cases of this nature, such a petition for a renewal must be presented four clays after the commencement of the session.
The Speaker
observed, that the hon. gent. was perfectly correct in his remark. It was the duty of every gentleman who presented a petition, to make himself master of the contents, in order that he might explain them to the house; he therefore requested the hon. gent. would have the goodness to state, whether or not this was a petition for the renewal of a former petition.
Mr. Moore
replied, that he believed he might take upon himself to say, that it was a petition for the renewal of a former petition.—On which the Speaker declared, that the rule of the house was perfectly clear, which rendered any such petition inadmissible.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 25.
[MINUTES.] Lord Androssan (the earl of Eglingtown
was introduced in the usual
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 25.
[MINUTES.]
A petition was presented from the debtors confined in the jail of Nottingham, which was ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Grey, sir A. Piggott, and Mr. H. Addington, and sir C. Pole took the oaths and their seats.—Mr. Eyre presented a petition from the maltsters of Nottingham, complaining of the, additional duties imposed upon malt by the act of the 42d of his present majesty. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Johnson from the office of the chief secretary for Ireland, presented at the bar an account of the number of non-resident clergymen, &c. in the dioceses of Ossory and Kilmore. Ordered to lie on the table.—Dr. Duigenan brought in a bill for enforcing the residence of the clergy in Ireland, which was read a first time.—The secretary at war gave notice, that he would on Thursday submit a motion for leave to bring in a bill to indemnify those who had advised his majesty to permit the landing of a certain number of foreign troops its this country. This measure, the right hon. gent. added, was conceived to be the more necessary in consequence of the amount of the German legion, which had been recently so very much recruited on the continent.—Lord Henry Petty moved, "that a committee be appointed to examine and report the amount of the joint charge on the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, between the 1st of Jan. 1801 and the 1st of Jan. 1806, what proportion thereof has been defrayed by Great Britain and Ireland respectively, and what balance remains due from either part of the united kingdom to the other, according to the provisions of the act of the 39th and 40th year of his present majesty, for the union of Great Britain and Ireland; and likewise to consider of and report the best means of ascertaining in future the amount of such balance as may be due from Great
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Francis rose
and spoke as follows:—Mr. Speaker; I rise, pursuant to notice, to move for the production of a document, which is at once of considerable importance and curiosity; but, as it relates to a subject which appears not to deserve much interest in this house or in the country, it may not excite adequate attention. I well know, by long experience, that India and every question connected with it, has no attraction for parliament or for the public; and that now, as well as on all former occasions; I shall still have to contend with the impatience and disgust of a careless unwilling audience. This alone makes the task too heavy for me, and is more than ought to be imposed on any individual, who has laboured for two-and-twenty years to execute a most invidious as well as important service, without reward, or assistance, or even encouragement from any body. It is not possible for the house to believe, that I can have any satisfaction in such a labour, except from the sense of performing a great and urgent duty, the execution of which, in fact, has been a principal bar to all my views in life as well as a perpetual interruption to my quiet and happiness. So far from having a pleasure in the dry discussion of such subjects, if it were possible for me to command a vote of this house, the first resolution they should pass should be to close my lips, and silence me for ever, on India affairs. The task I have undertaken, and so long pursued, is difficult, is unpleasing to those most interested in it, and, as yet, productive of no benefit to the country; still I will go on.—I will not solicit; but I will advise the house, as they value the interests of India, not to discourage the few, who may yet be disposed to investigate that subject, nor to damp their pursuit by a languid, reluctant attention; by, in fact, slighting their zeal. India is every day becoming more formidable to this country, and every thing that relates to our possessions in that quarter imperiously claims the attention of parliament. The question, which I have now to submit to the consideration of the house, does not refer to war or peace, or to any topic of Indian policy. It is merely a point respecting finance; and perhaps will not be a bad preface to the motion of which an hon. gent. on the bench behind me (Mr. Paull) has given notice for this day. Mo-
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Mr. Hiley Addington
said, that had he been a member of the house yesterday when the notice of this motion was given, he would have taken the liberty of asking the hon. gent. to postpone bringing it forward, until the board to which he had the honour to belong should have an opportunity of considering the subject, and of enquiring into the nature of the papers connected with it. This indulgence he hoped the hon. mover would not be disinclined to grant to a board so recently appointed. The application would not, he trusted, be deemed unreasonable, when the nature of the business connected with their office was taken into view; when it was considered that it might be necessary to look over a number of papers which the noble lord on the other side (lord Castlereagh) knew to be pretty voluminous, before an opinion could be formed, whether it would be consistent with the public interest to accede to the object of this motion. As the grant of this paper Was not so very pressing in its nature, he hoped the hon. gent. Would have no objections ,to post-
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Lord Castlereagh
said, he was as ready as any man to acknowledge the debt of gratitude which parliament and the country owed to the hon. mover, for the zeal and assiduity which he had uniformly manifested upon the important subject of our interests in India; and he perfectly concurred with that hon. gent. that it was essentially necessary the house should apply itself to the attentive consideration of those great interests. But, in order to enter into that consideration, every part of the subject should be laid before the house. The whole of the question should be completely understood. With respect to the assertion, that the India budget not having been brought forward last sessions was an unprecedented omission, be begged leave to set the hon. gent. right; for precisely the same omission occurred the first year be was president of the board of controul. But as to the cause of the last omission, of which the hon. gent. had complained, it was known to have proceeded from the delay of the accounts from India, which were indispensably necessary to the preparation of the budget; and the same cause occasioned the omission which took place before he entered into office. As to the motion before the house, he saw no objection to the production of the paper referred to; but it was for the right hon. gent. (Mr. H. Addington) and his colleagues to exercise their own discretion. When that paper should be laid before the house, and the transaction to which it alluded should be fully understood, the impression on his mind was, that the hon. mover would find the loan not to have been improvidently advanced; that it was not money lent without a just motive, or without ample security; but, on the contrary, that land was assigned to the company to ensure the repayment of this loan, and that that land was placed under the company's own administration. On the whole, the noble lord had no doubt it would appear, that the advance to this prince was a proceeding which stood upon the best principles of policy, that it was perfectly justifiable, and that no loss whatever was .likely to accrue from it. To the hon. mover's allusion, in the style of complaint, to the absence of the directors on this discussion, he should only say, that being
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Lord Morpeth
joined in the request of his right hon. colleague (Mr. H. Addington), that the hon. mover would defer his motion for a few days.
Mr. Francis
said, he had no thought whatever of attaching blame to, or occasioning any inconvenience to those who now directed the board of controul. He brought forward this motion before the house, in compliance with a notice which he had given so early as the last sessions, With the request made to him by the noble lord who had last spoken and his right hon. colleague, he had no difficulty in complying; but he wished to learn, when the noble lord would be able to ascertain the propriety of acceding to the motion, which he had felt it his duty to bring forward. He also would he glad to hear when the India budget, which was omitted last year, was likely to be brought forward.
Lord Morpeth
assured the hon. gent. that no time would be lost in enquiring into the subject to which his motion referred, With regard to the India budget, he stated it to be his intention, on the next meeting of the house, to move for the production of the accounts necessary to the bringing forward the budget of last year. How long these accounts might be preparing he could not pretend to say.
Mr. Charles Grant
said, he had not been in the house when the motion was made. He regretted that the attendance on his duty in another place, deprived him of the advantage of hearing the observations of the hon gent. who introduced it. By all the information he could collect on the subject, he thought that there would be no objection to comply with it. He was sure it was the wish of the court of directors, that every information in their power should be given. At the same time, he felt it an important consideration, to ascertain how far it might be consistent with the general interests of the company to have their accounts called for on every occasion.—Mr. Francis then, with the permission of the house, withdrew his motion.
[Affairs of India.] Mr. Paull
rose and spoke as follows:— Sir, in 1783, India could not be mentioned without filling the benches of both sides of the house;
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Lord Castlereagh
hoped the house would excuse him if, having been trusted with an important office in the administration of India, he felt that he could not sit silent, after the observations which had been made by the hon. member who spoke last. It appeared to him, that the hon. gent. had either misconceived the act he alluded to, or else he must have read it very hastily, as he had blended together the territorial and the commercial revenues, which should be considered as distinct things. As to the sending of bullion to India in payment for its colonial produce, whatever prejudice there might once have existed against exporting bullion, in modern times it was considered as an article of commerce, which might be exported without danger in its consequences. The hon. gent. had blended together many other considerations, which ought to have been kept distinct. He had not distinguished the debt and the assets abroad or at home, nor taken notice of that intermediate measure, the arrangement for the transfer of part of the Indian debt to this country. As to the act of appropriation, the only way that the house did, or could in common sense have ordered the appropriation was, that, in case of a surplus, there should be set apart, in the first place, a sum for the military expences; in the next place, for the civil and commercial affairs; and then, that the remainder should come over in investments. The hon. gent. was much mistaken, if he thought that a single enactment would be sufficient to allow the country to participate to the amount of the half million stated. Unless there was a surplus for such sum to come out of it, it would be impossible that it should be paid. When there was no surplus, it was also impossible that annual accounts should be laid before the house of an appropriation of a surplus. The hon. gent. seemed to be in a mistake throughout the whole of his speech, in only considering the surplus of territorial revenue, instead of the net proceeds arising from the commercial transactions of the East-India company, combined with their territorial revenue. The guarantee fund which he mentioned, was only to be created after the debt should be
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Mr. Fuller
could not think with the hon. mover, that the sun of Britain had set at the death of the marquis Cornwallis. He did not despond so. Men of talent could always be found for the service of the country. This led him to suggest to his majesty's ministers, whether something ought not to be done for admiral Cornwallis, the brother of that great man, who had distinguished himself so much by his blockade of the enemy in Brest.
Lord Folkestone.—Mr. Speaker
the noble lord (Castlereagh) in the latter part of his speech, has chosen to advise the hon. gent. who made this motion, to confine his enquiries about the finances of the East-
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Lord Castlereagh
said, he had not wished to confine the enquiry to the two last years; on the contrary, he had stated that he was ready to prove, that the finances of the India company were in a flourishing state at the time he brought forward the last budget.
Mr. Francis.—Mr. Speaker;
since I have had the honour of a seat in this house, I have heard many extraordinary propositions stated and argued on, as if they could not be disputed; hut, in my whole parliamentary life, none more extraordinary than some, which have escaped the noble lord this night. I shall state them briefly as they occur to me, and while they are fresh in my memory; observing only, that we are not talking now of the political government of India, or of the wars in that country, or of any question or subject in which the policy of England in regard to the territorial possessions is concerned. The noble lord asserts that the superintendance of the board of controul has in fact been confined, as the law directs, to the civil and military government and revenues of India. As to the commercial interests and concerns of the company, and their exclusive right to conduct their trade, and to instruct their presidencies concerning the provision of their investment and on every subject connected with this part of their charter, on all these points the noble lord affirms that the court of directors has been left to their own unbiased discretion; the board of controul had never interfered with them; much less had it ever thrown any impediment or embarrassment in their way. Is this the fact? If it be, I call on the directors to confirm it; if not, to tell us the real state of the case. Have the commissioners never interfered with their trade, or with their lawful discretion over their own proper concerns? I think I remember some strong instances of the contrary. What part did the commissioners take in the great question between the
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Lord Castlereagh
in explanation, stated that his sentiments as to the prosperous state of the company's affairs in the year 1803, were founded on the fact of there being a clear surplus of 1,150,000
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Mr. Charles Grant
This discussion, sir, has unexpectedly branched out into a variety of topics of great importance, for which I must regret that I am not better prepared. Some observations however, particularly on what has fallen from the hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) I shall beg leave to offer to the house.—The hon. gent. has stated it as his opinion, that the company would have done well to have relinquished the sovereignty of their territorial possessions, and to have confined themselves to commercial pursuits; for that they have, in fact, been ruined by those acquisitions sir, I differ very widely from the hon. gent. on these points, and think the doctrine he has advanced, respecting the political government of India, a very dangerous one. I consider the East-India company as the fittest Organ by which this country can beneficially manage and govern its empire in
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Mr. Francis
Sir, I did never say, that the mode, now established by law, for governing India, ought at this moment to be changed; no, nor one word to that effect. I said nothing prospectively. The general opinion I alluded to, was given near 30 years ago, and to that opinion the worthy chairman was then,
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Mr. Secretary Fox
observed, that the few words of explanation which had just fallen from his hon. friend, rendered it less necessary for him to enter particularly upon this subject. He had understood him precisely as his explanation imported. He agreed that we were not now to revert to original theories; but when we were examining into the causes of important events which were extremely complicated in their nature, it was somewhat difficult to do so without, in some measure, adverting to such original theories. He, however, did not mean to say that any altera-
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Lord Morpeth
observed, that there appeared to be no objection to the principle of these motions. It would be in the recollection of the house, that the half million which the company had engaged to pay to the public had only been paid in one instance. This was a matter of complete notoriety. He should be sorry to withhold any information; but he submitted to the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) whether it was necessary for him to press his motions, as they related only to points which were universally known.
Sir T. Metcalfe
assured the house he would only trouble them with a very few words. It was extremely well known to every member in that house, that for many years past the expences of the company had been very much on the increase; and nothing could be more self-evident than this, that while expences were increasing, there could be no surplus. He only wished on one point to shew, that during the time the 500,000
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Mr. Alderman Prinsep
said, he felt as much as any one the danger of alarming the public mind in respect to the state of the company's affairs; but he had thought it his duty, more than once, to state to the house what he thought on that subject, when it occasionally came before them for their consideration. He was now of opinion, that his majesty's ministers, who had lately taken upon them so great a responsibility, ought, in duty to themselves, to cause such investigations to take place, as to satisfy themselves whether the amazing amount of the present debt had accrued from a losing commerce, or from a great increase of military force and military expenditure. They ought to endeavour to find out the means of reconciling the paradox of a surplus and an increasing debt, a flourishing state of affairs, and an exhausted revenue and decreasing commerce, existing at one and the same moment, in the concerns of the same company. He hoped some enquiry, either public or private, would take place, and that speedily; for, as to the present system of revenues and resources, he saw nothing in it but delusion and deception, highly dangerous in their continuance.
Mr. Johnstone
observed, that he would not trouble the house with many remarks on this business; first, because the question was premature, since it would have come forward much better after the accounts had been laid on the table; and next, because the attention of ministers ought not at present to be turned away from affairs that required their more immediate labour. But he would say, however, that no blame whatever attached to the company, as it was clear from the accounts, that their failure to pay the sum agreed upon to the public, arose from the wars in which they had been engaged. No committee, he contended, was necessary, as every thing was detailed in the accounts in the clearest and minutest manner. And when differences arose between his hon. friend (Mr. Francis) and himself on the one side, and the noble lord (Castlereagh) near him on the other, the cause was, that
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Sir Hugh Inglis
said, the reason why government had not participated in the promised payments was, that in 1793, when the charter was renewed, hopes were entertained, that the war would very soon be at an end; but, unfortunately, those hopes had been disappointed, and we had ever since been engaged in war, either with the French or the native powers, and sometimes with both, by which the debt had been enormously increased, and the expences of the war had been placed to the
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Mr. Paull
replied at some length to the various arguments that had been made against his intended motion for a select committee. The noble lord opposite, (said the hon. gent.) accuses me of reading the act rather hastily: to that observation I shall make no reply. The noble lord (Folkestone) who with so much honour to himself, and advantage to the public, has this night seconded and supported my motions, has made so able a reply, and joined so cordially in my construction of the act, that any observation on my part, would only weaken the arguments of that noble lord; happily, too, I am borne out by the opinion of the right hon. secretary (Fox), of which I am not a little proud. The noble lord has said, that the situation of the company in 1802-3 was flourishing, prosperous, and happy, and their resources ample, and possessed of the means of fulfilling their engagements made in 1793. The present is not the time for the proof of this assertion; but I hold in my hand an opinion not likely to be controverted, that of the directors themselves, which I beg leave to read; it is from the third report of the select committee, dated in the very year 1802, that year so triumphantly referred to by the noble lord. In the third report of the select committee of the court of directors, after alluding to the letter of my lord Melville, they say, "Mr. Dun-
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errors of the system
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Mr. Hiley Addington
wished that the honourable gentleman would withdraw his motions; because as it was known that there were no such papers as he called for, they were mere nullities, to say no worse. He seriously deprecated the prominent disposition manifested so frequently by the hon. gent. who spoke last, to asperse and criminate the character of a noble person, not now present to defend himself,—and this before any document to sustain his allegations, or any regular enquiry into the noble person's conduct was before the house. At least he was sure if the hon. gent. did not condescend to take the advice he now took the liberty to offer him, he had sufficient experience of the candour and liberality of the house to be convinced that such allegations, thus unsupported by any thing but assertion, would have no weight in their opinion.
Dr. Laurence
said, that this was a common mode of proving that there were no such papers by having a return to that effect. He supported the motion of the hon. gent. and observed, that it now appeared the noble lord's flattering statement of the abundantly prosperous state of the affairs of the company in 1803, was entirely founded upon a prospective supposition of a permanent peace; whereas, in one month afterwards, his majesty's message was brought down to the house, announcing the explosion of a new war.—Mr. Paull's motions were then put and carried.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 27.
[WITNESSES' INDEMNITY BILL.]
The order of the day having been read for the attendance of the Judges (who were all present), to give their answers to the three questions referred to them, the 1st and 2d of which went to enquire whether, according to law, a witness could demand to answer a question, the answer to which might render him liable to an action for debt, or to a suit for the recovery of the profits of public money? and the 3d, to ascertain whether a witness who, on making a full and fair disclosure, was to be excused from certain debts, could not be legally objected to, on the ground of his being interested?
Lord Chief Justice Mansfield
delivered
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Lord Auckland
expressed his disappointment at the opinion which he had just heard from the learned Judges, which he had expected would have been decisive one way way or the other. In order, however, to obtain an answer, which might perhaps be all that would be necessary, with reference to the bill, he begged leave to propose another question, whether, according to law, any officer or agent employed under any officer entrusted with the application of the public money, could demur to answer to any question relative to the matter in issue, the answer to which might render him liable to any suit respecting the application of such money? This question, however, he was very willing to withdraw, if any other noble lord suggested a better mode of attaining the same object.
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Lord Eldon
said, it would be in the recollection of their lordships that he had on a former occasion expressed his doubts, whether they would derive much precise information from the opinion of the Judges upon such general questions. The great difficulty in his mind, with respect to framing more specific questions was, that they could not do so without going into the merits of the case which was to come before them by impeachment, and upon which they ought to preserve their minds clear from all previous opinions upon the subject, until they came before them regularly in evidence.
Lord Holland
objected to the noble lord (Auckland's) question, on the ground of its being too particular, and protested against the admission of the Judges' answer, because it recognized a principle which he contended was unparliamentary, viz. that questions referred to the Judges should be of a particular and not of a general nature. He was decidedly of a contrary opinion, and had no hesitation in saying, that it had been the uniform practice of parliament before the trial of Mr. Hastings, and that it was essential to the preservation of the independence and dignity of their lordships' house, the highest judicature of the kingdom, to refer no questions to the Judges of a particular nature, but to consult them on the general point of law.—All questions that it could become the house to refer to the learned Judges, were in his opinion reducible to these three heads. 1st, a question of pure abstract law, illustrated by an A. and B. case. 2dly, a question on the practice of the courts below. 3dly, a question on the construction of a particular act of parliament.—If, therefore, this was sound constitutional doctrine, and the Judges were permitted to decline answering questions because they were general, it would follow, either that the house must depart from the principles of their ancestors and the wholesome constitutional maxim of confining their questions to general points, or the attendance of Judges would become nugatory and useless.—The reason of the principle laid down, was obvious. If every particular case was referred to the Judges, we should not be consulting them for the purpose of gaining information upon which we might form our own opinions, but we should be asking them advice upon our
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Earl Stanhope
said, his noble friend had mistaken the practice of parliament, with respect to the questions referred to the Judges. If his noble friend had, like himself, endured the misery of attending for six years, during the trial of Warren Hastings, he would have known that it had been constantly the practice to refer questions to the Judges, upon specific points, and individual cases. He could not, at the same time, agree with his noble friend, as to the general propriety of requiring an answer from the learned Judges, to a question, respecting an abstract point of law. Such a question might involve both negative and positive, relations, and how was it possible for the learned Judges to give a general answer, of yes or no, to a question, which they could not, indeed, answer, without making a thousand, or, perhaps, ten thousand, exceptions to the general rule laid down? With respect to the bill itself, he was of opinion, that there should not be a different law for A. to what there was for B.;
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The Lord Chancellor (Erskine)
after briefly stating the circumstances which gave rise, on a former occasion, to putting these questions to the Judges, observed, that it was clear, from the statement of the learned chief Justice, that the learned Judges had not really declined to answer the question, on account of its being of too general a nature, but that they had differed in opinion with respect to the subject matter which that question involved, and, therefore, they could not return a general answer, either one way or the other. He looked up with reverence and respect to the opinion of the Judges; he wished to have their opinion upon such a question; the house had a right to call for their opinion. The variance between the verbal statement of the learned chief Justice, and the answer delivered in at the table, was obvious to the house; it was also clear that the difference of opinion amongst the learned Judges was, not as to the form of the question put to them, but upon the merits of the question itself. Under these circumstances, therefore, he thought that the house was entitled to call fur an opinion from the Judges, and, as they could not agree, that they should deliver their opinions
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Lord Grenville
perfectly concurred in what had fallen from the noble and learned lord on the woolsack. He wished to pay every respect to the learned Judges, but their lordships were entitled to an opinion upon the questions referred to that learned body; and, however painful or unpleasant the task, they must do their duty. He concurred in the propriety of hearing the Judges
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Lord Hawkesbury
also agreed that the Judges should be heard
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Lord Auckland
withdrew his motion.
The Earl of Radnor
thought the Judges ought to be called upon to deliver then opinions
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Lord Eldon
said, he felt it incumbent upon him to state, that he gave too positive an opinion upon the point involved in the bill. He had said, that there was no doubt that a witness had no right to demur to a question, the answer to which might involve him in a civil suit; that opinion he must now retract, as he found there were doubts upon the subject amongst persons of high legal authority. He concurred in opinion that the judges should be heard
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 27.
[MINUTES.]
A message was brought from the lords, stating that their lordships had agreed to the five millions exchequer bills bill without any amendment.—Dr. Duigenan brought in the Irish first fruits bill, which was read a first time.—
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Lord Folkestone
said, that though there had been some difference of opinion as to the propriety of investigations into the expenditure of the monies of the company, he presumed to think there could be no objection to the motion he had now to make, which was, "That there be laid before this house, a list of all pensions payable by the East-India company, and a return of all sums of money granted, by way of gratuity, by the court of directors to individuals, from the year 1793 up to the present time: specifying the services and considerations for which such pensions and sums of money have been given and granted respectively."
The Speaker
intimated, that it any hesitation appeared in the house to accede to this motion, the noble lord had better content himself, in conformity with what he (the speaker) conceived to be a rule established in the house, with giving notice of his motion for a future day.
Lord Folkestone
declared himself hostile to the practice, or to the establishment of any such rule. Particularly in such a case as the present; Where no possible objection could be made to the motion, he by no means conceived himself bound to give notice of it. If, however, the house should determine to establish such a rule, he trusted that its operation would not be partial, but that it would be rigidly adhered to in every instance.
The Speaker
trusted that the house would do him the justice to believe, that he was influenced by no motive in the remark that he had made, but the wish to uphold their received practice. Since he had enjoyed the honour of sitting in that chair, it had certainly been the received practice, not to entertain any motion of a public nature, without a previous notice, except, indeed, the annual accounts, &c. which were mere matters of course. The reason of this usage was evidently to prevent the house from being under the disagreeable necessity of rescinding on one day what they had agreed to in the day preceding, in the absence perhaps of those members who were competent judge of the propriety of the
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Lord Folkestone
repeated his objections to the practice of giving notices. It would be better to get rid of any obnoxious motion, by calling for the previous question.
Mr. Francis,
as an old member of the house, felt himself entitled to express his opinion on this subject. During the two first parliaments in which he had held a seat, no such practice was resorted to, except on very particular occasions. The present motion was not one of those which appeared to him to require previous notice. It was not a political question; it was a question, the propriety of which could not admit of debate, as it merely related to the public expenditure, information concerning which, the house, as guardians of the public purse, must ever be solicitous to obtain.
Mr. Perceval
spoke in favour of the prevailing practice, and thought no member could object to give notice, unless he had a disposition to take the house by surprise. There might be times, he observed, when, perhaps, there might be only one member of that house capable of judging of the propriety or impropriety of producing papers. That member might be absent on one particular day; but if a notice were given, he would, of course, feel it is duty to attend to it.
General Tarleton
thought, that, in the present instance, there was one good and sufficient ground for requiring a notice, as there happened to be no more than one India director then present in his place.
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, he considered the practice of giving notice on ordinary occasions, as an abuse which was so long suffered to prevail, that it was not at present easy to get rid of it immediately. In the present instance, however, he saw no occasion whatever for a notice, as he did not understand that there would be any objection to the motion. If any member of the court of directors stated any reason why he might wish for delay, he made no doubt but the noble lord would willingly consent to it. The practice now attempted to be enforced, he could only consider as a general instance of relaxation of duty, and was not to be found in the original constitution of parliament. In a constitutional view, every member was supposed to be bound to attend upon all
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Mr. P. Moore
thought a notice to be unnecessary, at least if no objection were stated to the motion.
Lord Folkestone
explained, that he wished some general rule to be at once adopted, in this respect, to regulate the proceedings of the house. It was in the power of any gentleman, who felt any difficulty or objection to his proposition, to move an adjournment of the debate, which he should not object to, if any sufficient reason were given for it.
Lee
was of opinion, that this question should at once be decided, one way or other. The right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox) appeared to him rather to incline to a notice being given in the present instance, conformably to practice. What he wished to suggest was, that it should be made a part of the law of parliament, for every member to desist from pressing a motion without notice, if it should be objected to; for if no precise rule were suffered to obtain, there might be no end to such desultory debates. The motion was then put and carried.
[VOLUNTEERS.] Mr. whitbread
rose to submit his promised motion, for a return of the effective volunteer force, to which as no opposition had been manifested when he gave his notice, he trusted none would now be made. There was no subject on which it behoved the house and the country to be more completely informed than the present. They had been buoyed up with the most magnificent descriptions of the state of the voluntary defence, and it was now highly expedient to ascertain the actual fact. At such a crisis as the present, this was particularly indispensible. It was of the utmost importance, previous to the sums being voted for the clothing and expences of a considerable portion of the volunteer establishment, that the house should know what number of men were likely to take the field in case of emergency. He was sure that his hon. friends, who were near him, would give this subject all the attention that its great importance de-
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General Tarleton
was very happy to give his support to the motion. The volunteers and the public at large were anxious to know, whether or not any new measure of defence was to be adopted. It was now near March, a period at which a campaign usually commenced, and this circumstance, added to the dangers with which the country was threatened, pointed out the necessity of expediting as much as possible any military plans that might be in contemplation.—The motion was then agreed to.
[Earl. ST. VINCENT.] Lord Henry Petty,
previous to moving for a committee on his majesty's message relative to earl St. Vincent, acquainted the house, that he had his majesty's commands to recommend to them that the annuity now limited to the two heirs male of the noble earl, should be extended to the two next heirs of the peerage in succession. It was his duty to add, that when the pension was first granted it was so continued, but it had happened that in proceeding through the house it became limited, He thought it right, distinctly to state this, to shew that it was no new favour granted to earl St. Vincent,
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Mr. Rose
corroborated the statement of the noble lord, that it certainly was intended when the grant was first conferred on earl St. Vincent, that it should devolve to the two next heirs of the peerage in succession. He felt it a duty which he owed that noble earl to declare, that when the subject of extending it was first mentioned to him, he had said that he felt himself sufficiently rewarded, and requested, that if any thing farther were in contemplation, it might be done without his interposition.—His majesty's recommendation, as just communicated by the noble lord, having been ordered to be referred to the same committee, the house resolved itself into a committee on his majesty's message respecting earl St. Vincent; when a resolution was agreed to, in conformity with the said message; and the house having been resumed, the report was ordered to be received tomorrow.
[TREASURER OF THE ORDNANCE.] Lord Henry Petty rose
to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of the office of treasurer of his majesty's ordnance. The principal object which he proposed by this bill, was to afford the public that security for the due administration of their money, to which they were entitled, by making it a legislative provision that all balances remaining in the hands of the treasurer should be deposited in the bank of England. It was true that there existed an order given by the board of ordnance to that effect; but it was desirable that the public should have better security than the mere act of any board, that the money which had been voted for particular purposes should be appropriated to those purposes, and to no others. As he was on the subject, he would take this opportunity of giving notice, that it was his intention to move for leave to bring in bills for enforcing similar regulations, and carrying into effect a similar principle, in the post office, excise office, custom house, &c.
Mr. Long,
after bearing testimony to the measures which lord Chatham, whilst in office, was pursuing to the same effect, expressed his satisfaction at finding that the
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 28.
[MINUTES.] Lord viscount Anson
was introduced with the accustomed formalities, sworn, and took his seat. His lordship's supporters were, viscounts Newark and Curzon.—The earl of Lauderdale, a Scots Peer, was also introduced, in full form, sworn, and took his seat, as baron Lauderdale, a peer of the united kingdom. His lordship's supporters were, lords Holland and Walsingham.—The earl of Donough more. one of the Irish representative peers, was sworn and took his seat.—The royal assent was given, by commission, to the five millions exchequer bills bill, lady Nelson's, and to sir R. Stnachan's annuity bill.
[WITNESSES INDEMNITY BILL—OPINION OF THE JUDGES.]
Pursuant to an order of the house, the learned Judges again attended this day, for the purpose of delivering their opinions
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Mr, Baron Sutton
as the junior judge, first rose to deliver his opinion. The learned baron, in the course of his argument, referred to a variety of legal considerations, cases, and decisions; on his view of which he grounded his opinions, These, considering the point as a general rule of law, liable, however, to various and numerous exceptions, dependent on circumstances, &c. were, that such witness was bound to answer. In the course of his illustrations he referred to a case, which he seemed to put hypothetically, viz.
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Mr. Baron Graham,
after stating the difficulties in which the question was involved, declared that, in his opinion, the general rule of law was, that a witness was bound to answer every question touching the issue to be tried, with the exception only of such questions as would expose him to a criminal prosecution, or to a penalty or forfeiture. In the courts of equity it was the daily practice to force parties to answer the natters alleged against them, whatever pecuniary loss such answer., might subject them to. The justice and the reason of this rule applied equally to the courts of law, although it was not the custom there to examine the parties, as it was in chancery, where their customs were derived from the civil, instead of the common law. Although, in the courts of law, a party could not be made a witness, yet those persons, who were brought forward as witnesses, were equally bound to declare the whole truth, as the parties would be in a court of equity. If it were not so, the most monstrous obstructions would be thrown in the way of justice; those persons who were the best qualified .to give important evidence, might generally shelter themselves under that plea. It was, however, every day seen, that pawn-brokers were brought in evidence upon the prosecution of thieves, and stable-keepers on the trials of horse-stealers; and in neither of these cases; would it be permitted, for the pawn-broker, or the stable-keeper, to refuse giving testimony, on the ground of their answers obliging them to restore those things which they had so improperly received. if this were the law, whatever inconveniences might result from it, witnesses would perpetually claim this privilege, either from fear, or through favour. The point had not as yet been settled by any solemn decision, after a full argument; but, from all the lights that he could derive, and from the monstrous inconvenience that would result from the contrary supposition, he declared his opinion, as to the first question, that a witness is bound to answer all such answers as do not expose him, either to criminal prosecution,
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Mr. Justice Chambre
was of the same opinion. In the courts of equity, not only a person might be compelled to answer questions which would severely affect their pecuniary interests, but bills of discovery were filed, for the express purpose of obtaining an answer upon oath, which answer might be read as evidence in the courts of law. The rule had been laid down by lord Mansfield, which had been generally considered as the true one, that in all cases where a witness could be forced to answer by a court of equity, in order that his answer might be read as evidence in a court of law, in, all such cases, a court of law should compel him to answer at the trial. The only cases where a party could refuse to answer in a court of equity, were, when such answer would expose him to either criminal prosecution or to penalty or forfeiture. This was what he conceived the rule also at common law, and that it most unquestionably ought to be the rule, for he thought there could be no reason assigned why a man should conceive himself privileged to conceal the truth, or to refuse to do justice between A. and B. on the ground that if he did so, C. might have an action against him; which would be to say in other words, "the public must not call upon me to give evidence, or do justice between A. and B. because such evidence night prevent me from acting unjustly by C. or D. to whom I should wish to act unjustly, and from whom I should wish to withhold a just debt."As to the authorities upon the point, there were on one side a great variety of opinions, expressed at
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Mr. Justice Le Blanc
agreed most decidedly with the opinions which had been delivered by the judges who preceded him. He considered that it would be subversive of justice, and a thing not to be endured, if agents, brokers, or persons who managed insurances, were to decline being examined on the ground of their being themselves made liable to a civil action. Although he professed the highest respect for the authority of those judges who held the rule to be the other way, yet it must be recollected that the point had never been seriously argued before, or probably those great and learned judges might have altered their opinions. He had always held that witnesses could be compelled to answer questions, even although their answers might expose them to civil actions, and the more he considered the practice of the courts, and the reason on which it was founded, the more he was confirmed in that opinion. He, therefore, agreed with his learned brethren in the answers they had given-to the questions that had been submitted to their opinion.
Mr. Justice Grose
differed in opinion from the learned Judges who had preceded him. He conceived, that, by the mild laws of this country, no man was bound to criminate himself; or to give evidence against his own pecuniary interest, and perhaps to his utter ruin. It was allowed, that neither in a court of equity, or at law, was a man bound to answer what might expose him to a penalty or forfeiture. He could not see the reason why a man should be excused from answering questions which might expose hint to the penalty of five pounds for killing a hare, and yet should be obliged to answer questions which might expose him to ten thousand pounds in damages, or to lie in jail all his life, it he should be unable to pay those damages. This difference, it appeared, was more grounded upon practice than upon any principle. The practice, however, of the courts of equity differed most materially from that of the courts of law. In the courts of equity, although the parties were liable to be compelled to answer upon oath, yet they had time for due deliberation and legal advice, and besides the answers could not afterwards be misrepresented. It was very different, however, in a court of law, when a question rapidly put by an ingenious lawyer, and
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Mr. Justice Lawrence
said, that he had always, until this question was agitated, considered that the rule of law was, that a witness was excused from answering such questions as involved his pecuniary rest, and, so thinking, he had concurred with other Judges in refusing a new trial moved for on that very ground. The fact was that, till the present question was started, there had been no solemn argument upon the subject, and he had never turned his mind particularly to it; but upon the present occasion, having felt it his duty to consider the subject with the utmost attention he could give to it, he had changed his opinion as to the rule of law, and was now inclined to consider that it was different from what he had formerly supposed. Whichever way the general rule lay, that rule had many exceptions;" and, although he could see many inconveniences resulting from the affirmative, as well as from the negative of the question which had been put to the Judges, yet he thought the mischiefs resulting from the negative of it considerably predominated. He therefore now considered, that the general rule of law was, that a witness was bound to answer questions, although he might become liable to a civil action in consequence of his answers.
Mr. Justice Rooke
coincided with his learned brother (Mr. Justice Grose) in his opinion, that a witness was not bound to answer questions which might materially affect his pecuniary interest. He did not apprehend such evil consequences from this rule, as those who held an opinion contrary to his. Prosecutors and plaintiffs seldom came into court so badly provided with testimony, as to rely entirely on what they were to pick up by cross-exami
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 28.
[MINUTES.]
A message from the lords requested the attendance of the house at their lordships' bar, where the royal assent was given by commission to the exchequer bills act, lady Nelson's and sir R. Strachan's annuity act —Lord Temple brought in a
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Alderman Prinsep rose,
to make the motion of which he had given notice yesterday. The object he had in view was to ascertain the proportion our commerce with India bore to that with China, and the relative amount of the capital borrowed in India, for the prosecution of each trade. He had another object in view, which was to ascertain whether the amount of stores was or was not included in the account of territorial revenue applied to commercial purposes. He conceived it very material to have these objects elucidated, and he thought they would be explained by these papers. He moved, therefore, "that there be laid before the house an account showing the annual amount of stores and merchandise respectively exported by and for the service of the East-India company to India, from the year ending the 1st of March 1793, to the 1st of March 1804; together with the expenditure and sales thereof at each presidency, and the respective balances in store and afloat, on 30th April 1793, and 30th April 1803, as far as the same can be made out. Also, an account, shewing the annual amount of bullion, stores, and merchandise, respectively exported by and for the service of the East-India company to China, from the year ending the 1st of March 1793, to the 1st
242
Mr. Francis
seconded the motion. He was determined to second and support every motion, the object of which was to obtain information of the commercial and financial affairs of the company, unmixed with political matter, and thus to promote the great point he had so long looked to, to save the company from ruin, and with the company the country, which would have to bear the burden of the ruin, if the company should fall. He complained, that the directors never gave an answer, even when papers of the slightest moment were moved for. The board of controul always came forward, or one was always referred to that board. The constitution of the company required, that the directors should act in the first instance; and that the board of controul should interfere only when it was necessary to check them. He did not like that the court of directors and the board of controul should act together as they had done for some time. This had not so much the appearance of a laudable harmony, as of a secret understanding.
Mr.Hiley Addington
thanked the worthy alderman for having given notice of this motion, a consideration which he hoped the house would think due to a new board, yet unacquainted what papers ought or ought not to be produced. He saw no objections to these papers; only, as an account of the bullion exported to India. had been already ordered, it would be advisable to omit it here. These papers, however, could not be produced very soon, as the clerks were employed in preparing the accounts for the India budget. The board of controul did not wish to interfere with the court of directors; but, as a great responsibility rested upon the board of controul, it wished to discharge its duty; this, however, without interfering with the proper objects of the company's care, and without resisting the production of any necessary information.
Sir T. Metcalfe
said, that however much the hon. gent. who seconded the motion might vaunt himself the company's friend, he never could consider him as such. As to the reserve shewn by the court of directors on motions for papers, it was sufficient to state, that all the papers were in
243
Mr. Francis
warmly replied, that the dispatches, even if shot away, could not have floated, if loaded with chain-shot, as was the custom in his time: but, if the house were satisfied with the strange explanation now given of it, he had done with the business; though
primâ facie
The Speaker
here reminded him that he was out of order.
Mr. Francis
then said, he must submit to authority; but would beg leave to state, in explanation, that he still continued to
244
Sir T. Metcalfe
in explanation, said, that as the hon. gent. often vaunted himself to be the true friend of the East-India company, he considered it no attack on him to say, that he never thought him so —After this, the motions were agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Saturday, March 1.
[WITNESSES' INDEMNITY BILL—OPINION OF THE JUDGES.]
The order of the day was read for the remainder of the learned Judges to deliver their opinions,
seriatim
Mr. Baron Thompson
said, he could find nothing in any of the legal writers which was satisfactory on the subject involved in the questions referred to the Judges; but, from the best consideration which he was enabled to give the subject, he was of opinion that a witness, under the circumstances mentioned, was not compellable to give evidence of facts which might be afterwards used against himself.
Mr. Justice Heath
as a general rule of law, was of opinion, that witnesses under such circumstances, were compellable to answer.
Lord Chief Baron Macdonald
deprecated the consequences which would ensue from the establishment of such a principle as that a witness was not compellable to answer where that answer might tend to acknowledge a debt recoverable by civil suit, as in that case a witness interested to the amount of five shillings, by refusing to give evidence might defeat the just claim of a party to ten thousand pounds. In the court in which it was his lot to preside, it would, also be productive of the worst consequences, as in revenue causes witnesses would on such a ground very frequently demur and prevent the truth from being ascertained. Judging from precedents, and from the law and reason of the case, he concurred in opinion with Mr. Justice Heath.
Lord Chief Justice Mansfield
entered at considerable length into a contrary line of
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l
l
Earl Stanhope
rose, and observed upon the very material difference of opinion among the Judges. They differed, not only in principle, but as to the extent of particular rules. The inconvenience of leaving
246
Lord Eldon
observed, he should not oppose the first reading of the bill, such a proceeding not being customary in that house. He would, however, say, such a bill would require a great deal of consideration; and possibly it should necessarily undergo a great deal of alteration, before their lordships could, with propriety, agree to it. With respect to what had been stated by some of the learned Judges, in one point of view, he would declare, upon his professional word of honour, until he heard the note read from Mr. Peake's book, though he had lived thirty years in the profession, and officiated in different departments, where he had to institute examinations as to every point of law, he could declare he never heard the right of such a privilege contended for; and he believed a noble lord, now in that house, though there never lived a man who had more extensive practice at common law, never heard such an objection. He would not refer to what might occur to particular Judges, on particular circuits; but in Westminster-hall, where all the Judges were assembled, from all the circuits, he had never heard such an objection started. The practice on one of the western circuits
247
The Lord Chancellor (Erskine)
left the woolsack. He felt it his duty to communicate his sentiments on a subject of so much consequence to the proceedings in courts of law. He had been for seven-and-twenty years engaged in the duties of a laborious profession, and while he was so employed, he had the opportunity of a more extensive experience in the courts, than any other individual of his time. It was true, that in the profession there had been, and there now were, men of much more learning and ability, than he would even pretend to; but success in life often depended more upon accident, and certain physical advantages, than upon the most brilliant talents and profound erudition. It was very singular, that, during these twenty-seven years, he had not for a single day been prevented in his attendance on the courts by any indisposition, or corporeal infirmity. Within much the greater part of this period, he had been honoured by a gown of precedency, and in consequence of this privilege, had not only been engaged in every important cause, but had conducted causes of this description during that period in the court of King's Bench. But with the history of his professional life, their lordships had no concern, otherwise than as it was connected with the pre-
248
Lord Ellenborough
perfectly coincided with the sentiments of his noble and learned friend on the woolsack. The labours of his existence had also been devoted to the same arduous duties, and he had attended a circuit the largest in extent, and the most comprehensive in the variety of
249
Earl Stanhope
considered his bill capable of comprising every object suggested by the noble lords who had opposed it, and said, that he should move for the second reading on Tuesday next. In the mean time, it was ordered to be printed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 3.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.] The Marquis of Abercorn
moved the order of the day for resuming the. adjourned debate on his motion of this day se'
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Lord Grenville
said, he could assure the house, that he had nothing more in view in the course he had adopted, with respect to the affair in question, than the interests of the country, and the ends of substantial justice with respect to all parties, which he wished to be attained, in the mode that was most consistent with the laws of the land, and the practice of the constitution. It was in reference to these great objects, that he wished for some interval of delay in deciding upon what the noble marquis had proposed; it also arose from a difficulty which he then felt, and continued to feel, as to the course, circumstanced as the case then was, most proper to be pursued. Were he called upon to give a decided opinion, it would be that which he had more than once expressed last year; namely, that every step which had been taken in the business, had been in a wrong, and, as he thought, an unconstitutional course; in this opinion, he was confirmed by every research he had made, and every degree of study he had given to the subject. He was by no means ignorant or unmindful of those difficulties, and embarrassments, which the case, as it now stood, involved. He was also fully aware of its magnitude and importance. He felt all the difficulty of the consideration of breaking it off, or discontinuing the proceeding, after having entertained it so far. The question was therefore a great and important one, in a variety of views, not only as it respected individuals in Ireland, and the character of the personage accused; but as it involved considerations connected with the honour and character of the house. Upon the whole, he was not ashamed to say, the difficulties still continued to operate upon his mind, which was not yet prepared or satisfied as to what was proper, or ought to be done, or what course ought to be adopted. He felt it incumbent on him to put in this protest in behalf of the opinions he had formerly avowed; with regard to the express motion, it being to operate upon such a distant day as the 28th of April, which would afford their lordships ample time for intermediate consideration, he should not then resist it.
252
Lord Auckland
observed, that with respect to the motion, were he to decide upon it, it should be in the negative. He was by no means satisfied with the course that had been adopted, and every thing he had since been able to learn, or collect, tended to confirm him in such an opinion: that house, he thought, was not competent to entertain a proceeding of the kind, and therefore he should be induced to resist it in every stage. So strong was the impression upon his mind, that he had recorded his sentiments upon the journals last year. He not only regretted it had ever gone so far, but he was sorry it was ever entered upon in that house; and he believed that few who heard him, would not wish it well out of that house. In concluding, his lordship adverted to the immense expence which had been already, and in all probability would still be incurred in the prosecution of the affair, a great part of which, he thought, would be ultimately paid by the public.
Lord Hawkesbury
did not wish then to enter into a retrospective view of the affairs in question; they had been principally to consider the situation in which it now stood; in this view of it he seemed to deprecate all idea of stopping short. It was impossible for any person to read the case in evidence, which lay upon the table, and not see the absolute necessity of proceeding in the investigation of it. Not only with a view to the rights and interests, but the character of all parties concerned; even the credit and character of the house were involved; it was, therefore, in all these points of view, proper to proceed, thoroughly to investigate the case, and come to a decision upon it. He had given the best attention in his power to the business, and was ready to say, that even a respect for the character of the learned judge in question should be an additional inducement to their lordships to continue the investigation.
The Earl of Bucking hamshire,
after shortly adverting to the sentiments he had formerly declared upon the subject, observed, he could consistenly, in the present state of the case, vote for a suspension of the proceedings. He alluded to what had been adduced in evidence, and upon record against the learned judge in question, and the degree of publicity it had obtained, which should be a consideration to determine their lordships not to leave the case in such an unfinished state.
The Marquis of Buckingham
appeared
253
[LORD ELLENBOROUGH'S SEAT IN THE CABINET.] The Earl of Bristol rose
to bring forward his promised motion upon this subject, and spoke as follows: My lords, before I state to your lordships the views and motives which have induced me to shape the resolutions which I now hold in my hand, and which I shall this night have the honour of submitting to the consideration of the house, I feel peculiarly anxious to disclaim, in the strongest and most unequivocal manner, all party views in the step I am about to take, and I most earnestly entreat of every noble lord here present, not to consider the present question as in any degree of a party nature. For myself, my lords, I can most solemnly aver, and there are many who can bear witness to the truth of the assertion, that so far am I from being actuated by any hostile feelings towards his majesty's present ministers, that from the moment of the death of that great and illustrious statesman, whose loss has been so severely felt and so deeply lamented, no man in this house or out of it was more desirous than I was, to see the reins of government committed to the hands which now hold them; and, my lords, so sincerely were these sentiments entertained by me, so scrupulously was I disposed to govern my conduct by them; and so anxious was I, that in the present momentous crisis of the affairs of the country and of Europe, his majesty's government should enjoy the unanimous support of parliament, and of the public, that it was not till I had failed
254
is the associate of these ministers, and a party to their measures and their feelings,
lord chief justice hold the office of lord president of the council?
to separate that high ministerial station into its two component parts of power and of emolument: and, by throwing away the husk of the salary as food for baser minds, to be thereby enabled to give the power, the influence, the vital essence of the appointment, all that can be an object to enlarged ambition, all that true greatness can value or desire; to be enabled, my lords, to give this in a concealed and invisible manner, to those who could not dare to accept it in the ostensible and embodied shape of a cabinet office.
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a member of the Cabinet,
blend and to amalgamate those great elementary principles of political power, which it is the very object of a free constitution to keep separate and distinct.
very nature of his office, a political character;
in fact, a responsible political agent of the crown, when he affixes the great seal to treaties,
256
there is but one instance, from the revolution to the present day, of a common law judge having taken an habitual share in advising the crown on the ordinary course of state affairs.
it is more peculiarly dangerous and offensive,
what security hare we against its being so extended in future?
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258
My lords, he would be sent to take his trial in that very court, where one of the ministers whom he had accused and irritated, would preside—and preside not merely to direct and influence the jury, but eventually in his own person, to award the amount of his fine, and the duration of his imprisonment;
to see that minister sent as a state criminal to the bar of a court where his colleague sits to judge him?
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Lord St. John
said, he gave the noble lord full credit fur his assertions, that he was actuated by no party-feeling in bringing forward the present motion, or by any personal motives with regard to the noble and learned lord who was the present chief justice of the court of King's Bench. He was perfectly convinced that the noble lord had not been influenced by any consideration of that nature, nor by a wish to embarrass his majesty's ministers, who were, in fact, indebted to the noble lord for bringing forward this motion, inasmuch as it brought a subject into discussion, respecting which much misapprehension had gone abroad, but which he trusted would, by the discussion of this night, be completely done away. The proposition, itself, as made by the noble lord, was of an abstract nature, and he did not see any possible good that could arise from its adoption. He did not mean to look into Montesquieu for the law or constitution of England, neither upon such a subject did he acknowledge such an authority; and surely the noble lord must have forgotten, for the moment, the place in which he was speaking, when he advanced general theories, tending to prove, not merely that the judicial and executive functions ought
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Lord Eldon
on entering into the consideration of this question, disclaimed the idea that it was a question respecting any individual, or any administration. considered it as a question of much superior importance, as relating to the administration of justice in this country. He felt the highest respect and veneration for the noble and learned lord (Ellenborough), and it would give him the greatest pain if it were supposed, that the observations he should make proceeded from any personal disrespect; so far from it, it was in order to express his respect for that noble and learned lord, that he was induced to attend upon this occasion. He did not mean to contend, nor could he hear it argued, that the appointment of that noble lord to a seat in the Cabinet was illegal. It certainly was not illegal. Neither would he say, that it was unconstitutional: but he rose to state, that, although the appointment was not contrary to the law or the constitution, yet that there existed reasons which made it unadvisable or inexpedient. The reasons which weighed upon his mind were of a delicate nature. It was not enough that the administration of justice should be perfectly free and uninfluenced by government; it was not enough that it should be pure; but it should also be beyond the reach of suspicion, and so exercised, as to give perfect satisfaction to all his majesty's subjects. There were many analogies and precedents against the uniting the functions of chief justice with a seat in the Cabinet. Although, in order to shew that it had been before united, the solitary instance of lord Mansfield might be urged, yet it must also be recollected how extremely unpopular that noble and eminent person became after he had united those stations, and how that unpopularity hung to him for the greater part of his life. Perhaps it was an ill-founded jealousy which existed in the minds of the public, but still it was sufficient to weaken the confidence they ought to place in the judicial character. For his part, he was so well acquainted with the noble and learned lord, that he felt personally the utmost
264
265
The Earl of Carlisle
observed, that a new sensation of alarm, which had slept for a hundred years, now began to shew itself, as if with a view to lower the new administration in the eyes of the people, to disturb that public confidence which was placed in men of such great talents and integrity as those respectable characters who composed the present administration, and to banish the joy with which all ranks of men witnessed the paternal care of his majesty, in calling forth persons of the most exalted talents to direct the affairs of the country. If all this alarm was allowed; if it was found that the public was extremely uneasy (and indeed, for his own part, he heard no uneasiness expressed any where); if this alarm, in short, was well founded, his objection to the motion was still stronger than ever, because it would not cure the evil complained of. It would go to prevent any privy counsellor from giving his advice to the king in the character of a judge. A very great inconvenience would arise from confounding the privy council with the committee of the privy council. The king had an undoubted privilege to call any privy counsellor to that committee. Because for a number of years no instance occurred of a judge being of such committee, that was no argument that the practice was unconstitutional. He never heard a complaint of any injury
266
Lord Boringdon
said it was a very difficult thing to ascertain the bulk of the public opinion during so short a period as that which had elapsed since the appointment in question. For his own part, he believed the measure had communicated throughout the public a general sentiment of dissatisfaction and distrust. He wanted no reform or alteration. His only object was to preserve the liberty of the subject entire, and in doing that there was no occasion to go back to the reign of Edward III. Those who were called cabinet counsellors, were the responsible advisers of the king. It was a matter of notoriety, that the lord chief justice was not habitually summoned to the council. He was also the first criminal judge in the country. The two situations were incompatible; and of all the absurd constitutions which modern constitution mongers had adopted, none were more discordant than that of the chief criminal judge being at the same time a minister of state. Suppose the case of a book, declared by the Cabinet to be a libel on his majesty's government, and the author ordered to be prosecuted; was it fitting that such person should be tried by a chief justice who was at the same time one of his majesty's Cabinet ministers, and consequently one of the prosecutors of the very person whom he was trying? He did not wish to make the slightest personal allusion to the present chief justice of the King's Beach, but merely to argue the
267
Lord Sidmouth
agreed with the noble lord who spoke last, and with a noble and learned lord (Eldon) who had spoken earlier in the debate, that this was a question of very great importance in a constitutional view. He also agreed with the same noble and learned lord, that it was necessary that the administration of justice in this country should not only be free and unfettered by the crown, but that the purity of it should be beyond the reach of suspicion; and if in the present instance it could be urged, that there was any reasonable ground of suspicion, he would admit that no pressure of circumstances would make the time improper for the discussion. He had felt a strong desire to reply to the noble and learned lord sooner, but had been prevented by the rising of another peer; he was happy, however, to have heard from the authority of the noble and learned lord, that the appointment in question was not illegal, and that it was not unconstitutional; nevertheless, the noble lord had said, that if he had been lord chief justice, and had been offered a seat in the Cabinet, he should not have objected to it in the first instance, but that if he had accepted it, he should have resigned it upon more full and mature consideration of the inexpediency of his re-
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270
271
272
lex scripta;
Lord Mulgrave
professed to feel a high respect for the character of the noble and learned lord (Ellenborough) in his judicial capacity, but disapproved of the idea of uniting in the same person the very different characters of minister of state and judge in a criminal court. He would by no means wish to agitate this or any other question with a view of diminishing the confidence that he thought it necessary the present government should have in the actual circumstances of affairs. For his part, he felt no want of confidence, or jealousy of the present government, when he saw the noble lord (Grenville) at the head of it. There were parts of the administration which, if they stood alone, would not have obtained his confidence, but, united as they were, he saw no reasonable ground for jealousy or distrust. As to the word "Cabinet," although it might have been but lately introduced, still it was a term that was generally understood, not only in this country but all over Europe. The members of the Cabinet were considered the responsible advisers of the crown, and the lord chief justice, in that capacity, might be brought to that bar and impeached, when his presence might be necessary in the King's Bench in his judicial capacity. As a minister, his majesty might be addressed to remove him from his presence and councils for ever, and yet, as lord chief justice, his majesty could not remove him, as long as in his judicial
273
274
The Earl of Carnarvon
had not heard an argument that tended even to stagger his mind on the propriety of the appointment. He considered the motion as a thing unprecedented in British history. It was a direct attack on the king's prerogative, and went to take from his majesty his undoubted right of calling to his confidential councils the person of whom he approved. It differed materially from a motion for an address to remove ministers whose measures were disapproved of; since here the person alluded to had only been appointed a few days, and no allegation was made against his general character. It was a curious reason, that, because he was called to the committee of privy council called the Cabinet, he was less fit to discharge the office of Judge. All state trials were ordered in the privy council; and, from time immemorial, the chief justice of the King's Bench had been a member of the privy council. He said they would find upon reference to our history, from the earliest periods, that the chief justices had been consulted as statesmen. They must not take it from the revolution only, for our constitution, in this respect, was long antecedent to that epoch; and it was full of instances of this kind. He animadverted on the passages in Montesquieu and Blackstone, and contended that they must not take the mere theories of writers, against the invariable practice of the government.
Lord Eldon,
in explanation, stated that he did not say that he would have advised the noble and learned lord to have declined the appointment to a situation in the Cabinet, but that he would have recommended him to re-consider the proposition.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that the importance of the subject compelled him to obtrude himself upon their lordships. No question more interesting could have been offered to their lordships, not merely on account of its connection with the lives and liberties of the people of this country, but it was important also in another point of view. It was one which vitally touched the very essence of the constitution. Before he addressed himself to the question, he would take an opportunity of declaring, that he did not yield to any one in that house in personal respect towards the noble and learned lord against the expe-
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Lord Holland
replied to the different lords who had supposed the motion. He said, that a most artful attempt had been made to confound things which were in their nature separate; and to separate those which were in truth the same. It had been ingeniously attempted to make an active, ostensible minister of the king, and a person merely summoned to a committee of the privy council, one and the same thing, though nothing could be more separate and distinct. And next, it was attempted to make a member of such committee and a member of the privy council separate and distinct characters, though they were really one and the same. The artful meaning of this was, to fabricate a supposed responsibility which did not exist and was not known to the constitution. It was to endeavour to make a mere confidential counsellor of the king responsible equally with an actual, efficient, ostensible minister, in a particular department. The constitution knew no such thing; no measure could take place, no act could be done but there was one active responsible person to whom parliament and the country had to look for it, and who must answer for it if wrong. This might suit some of the members of the late unfortunate administration, but it would not pass; and let not the noble earl (Mulgrave) imagine that such a subterfuge could avail. If a majority of the other house of parliament, for instance, were to bring up articles of impeachment against the rash, unprovoked, injurious publication of treaties, letters, and papers, by which the good faith of the country was violated, its honour and reputation tarnished, and by which it was likely to be for ever cut off from all confidence, communication, or correspondence, with any other country in the universe: by which too its friends and allies, those who had been drawn in to make common cause with us, were to be ruined and undone; by which our and their implacable enemy was to be furnished with arguments
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Lord Mulgrave,
in allusion to an observation of the last speaker respecting the publication of the treaties with foreign powers, said, that he should consider it as the happiest day of his life, when he could meet him on that subject, and challenge him to bring forward a specific motion on the subject.
280
Lord Holland
said, he neither gave, nor would give any pledge of bringing forward any such proposition.
Lord Grenville
said, that person must be very confident in his abilities, who could hope to add to the arguments which had been advanced in support of the appointment against which the motion of the noble earl was directed. That appointment was no object of trite responsibility. If there was any illegality to be discovered in it, if it was found to be unconstitutional, if it threw suspicion upon the pure administration of justice, it was upon the person who addressed their lordships, that the guilt, if guilt there was attached to it, solely and exclusively rested. It was he who counselled it, it was he who suggested it, it was he who had given his written advice to his majesty to that effect. He was glad that the subject had been submitted to the consideration of parliament. He had always found, in the course of no short official life, that whenever any question excited apprehension in the public mind, the most advisable course was to bring it into speedy discussion. Much pains had been taken, out of that house, to impress a conviction that the appointment was illegal; a noble and learned lord had said that it was not. It was stated to be unconstitutional; here again the same noble lord declared it was not. The noble and learned lord (Eldon) said that he upon the occasion would have acted as lord said that he upon the occasion would have acted as lord Ellenborough did, and he was persuaded the noble lord would not have acted in a manner which he would consider as improper. Much stress had been laid upon the opinion of judge Blackstone. Whatever merit might be discoverable in that writer, it could not be denied that many of his theories were fanciful and impracticable. He would attack the principles advanced by the noble lord who had spoken so long and so eloquently, and assert that there was no such distinction to be found in the constitution, as that which he endeavoured to maintain. He would give but little authority to the wild, the beautiful theories of Blackstone, for, in order to meet them, it would be necessary to abrogate the jurisdiction of that house, What do the noble lords say by way of answer to the precedents produced? Why this; the case of lord Mansfield was one innovation upon the constitution, let us not have a second. From the earliest periods of our history it would be found
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The Lord Chancellor
left the woolsack and spoke against the motion. He thought it could not be attended with any solid good. His majesty had been pleased to call the noble and learned lord to the most honourable situation; and from his long knowledge of the character, conduct, and capacity of his noble and learned friend. who was a sound constitutional lawyer, no man was better entitled to the honours bestowed on him in his various appointments of chief justice. privy counsellor, and member of the Cabinet. If those who differed from him on the occasion, persisted in their opposition, the burthen lay upon them to prove that his last appointment was either illegal or unconstitutional. The appointment now challenged had been known as the practice of the antient constitution. Why should his majesty be prevented from the free exercise of his prerogative, in calling to his councils or his Cabinet any man in whose abilities he reposed particular confidence? But not to call into his majesty's Cabinet or councils a nobleman whose knowledge of the law of the land, and of the constitution of the country, was in every degree fully admitted, would be an absurd infringement of his majesty's prerogative. The motion should have his decided negative, for he would never lightly consent to alter any part of the ancient constitution of this country. The scenes which had been exhibited on the continent, afforded a terrible example of the mischief which was likely to result from any attempts to introduce reform founded on theory and speculation. It was the peculiar advantage of the British constitution, that it had been formed gradually, that it was the creature of time and circumstances, not the offspring of any theory. The noble and learned lord then dwelt upon the very honourable situation which he so unworthily occupied in that, house; but, notwithstanding his present elevation, he declared that he would never forget his duty to the people, whose partiality he had so long and so happily experienced—He would never forget the active and successful part which he had always taken in support of the trial by jury. These facts, honourable to his individual recollection, induced him to declare, that if he saw any danger from the appointment of
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 3.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Hurst
presented a petition from the debtors confined in the gaol of Horsham in Sussex. Mr. Sheridan, col. M'Malion, Mr. Courtenay, and admiral Markham, took the oaths and their seats, on their re-election.—The sheriffs of London presented at the bar a petition from the lord mayor, aldermen, and commons of the city of London, in common council assembled, relative to the enlargement of Smithfield Market. Referred to a committee.—Mr. Whitbread said, he was desired by the committee, of which he had been appointed chairman, to give notice, that he should to-morrow make a special communication to the house on the subject of the impeachment of lord Melville.—It was ordered, on the motion of Mr. Foydell, that there be laid before the house an account of all the wool, woolfells, &c. imported into England for the last 20 years, distinguishing the quantity imported from the United States.—The Greenland whale-fishery bill was read a second time; to be committed to-morrow.—The qualification indemnity bill was read a third time, and passed.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, pursuant to notice, the house went into a committee on the Irish revenue acts. In the committee a resolution was agreed to for continuing the duties granted to the 25th of this mouth for a time to be limited. The house having been resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on expiring laws. The resolutions were severally agreed to, and it was ordered to be an instruction to the committee appointed to prepare the expiring laws bill, to make provision therein pursuant thereto.—The order of the day for the house going into a committee of supply,
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Meux,
from the office of the commissioners for the affairs of India, resented at the bar the papers moved for by Mr. Paull, on the 25th and 28th of June, 1805. Ordered to lie on the table, and, on the motion of Mr. Paull, to be printed.
Lord Temple
said, he had no objection to the papers being printed, voluminous as they were. It was a subject of high importance, and every member should be enabled to consider it with mature deliberation. As the hon. gent. had, however, professed that he had moved for these papers with a view of grounding a charge against marquis Wellesley, he hoped he would not fail to bring it forward, as it was of the utmost consequence to the honour and character of his noble friend, that, after what had been suggested, a full and fair enquiry should take place. The hon. gent. had said, these were all the papers he intended to move for on that subject. He would, therefore, request of the hon. gent. to say, when he intended to bring forward his motion.
Mr. Paull
said, it was now upwards of 9 months since he had moved for some of these papers, and they, were but just furnished to the house. As soon as he had leisure to peruse them, so as to arrange the matter on which to ground his motion, he should certainly bring it forward, and submit certain resolutions respecting the conduct of the governor-general to the consideration of the house.—All the papers were ordered to be printed.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Alderman Prinsep
stated, that in compliance with the suggestion of a right hon. member (Mr. H. Addington, see p. 242.) he had the other day consented to omit the word "bullion," out of a motion which was then agreed to, not being aware that he thereby, as he now found, destroyed the object of his own motion. He therefore moved, that the order be read and discharged, for the purpose of having one containing the word bullion substituted in its place.—The order was accordingly discharged; and on the question being
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Mr. Huddlestone
objected to it, on the ground, that the account was a detail of commercial concerns, which he did not think was proper to be made known. He was unavoidably absent, on the day when the hon. alderman brought forward his motion, or he should then have opposed it.—The hon. gent. said, that the evils which now oppressed the East-India company, were not imputable to the directors.
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
appealed to the candour of the hon, director, whether it were a fair proceeding to object to the amendment of adding a single word to a motion, which had already received the sanction of the house, and to which no objection had, been made, previous to the order being discharged?
Mr. H. Addington
said, the word "bullion" was in the original motion, and the hon. alderman had agreed to its being struck out, on his suggestion to the hon. alderman that it. was unnecessary. If, however, the hon. alderman now thought that the purposes of his motion would be better answered by the "bullion" being again inserted, he saw no reason why it should be objected to.—The amendment was agreed to.
[LORD ELLEN BOROUGH'S SEAT IN THE CABINET.] Mr. Spencer Stanhope
said, that though he had had the honour of a seat in many parliaments, had been a constant attender, and spent many of the best hours of his life in that house, yet he felt himself at that moment in a situation novel and embarrassing to himself, and beyond his abilities to fill adequately. A train of circumstances wholly casual had led him to be the mover of a question of high constitutional importance. Had he considered it at all in the light of an opposition question, he certainly would not have been the mover of it; he thought it much more of the nature of an election petition, denying the eligibility of the lord chief justice of England to a seat in the Cabinet. Had he meant it as hostile to the present administration, the right hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Fox) would hardly have been the first to whom he communicated it, which in truth he was. The proposition he meant to conclude with, he should have been ready at any time and under any administration to support. If the late minister had called the late lord Kenyon to a Seat in the Cabinet,
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Mr. Bond,
said, if he only rose as the
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Mr. Canning
said, that before he proceeded to state shortly the grounds oft which he was about to support the motion which had been made by his hon. friend, he wished to say a few words, with a view to disclaim the motives which seemed to be attributed to him and those who thought with him, by the right hon. gent. who spoke last. That right hon. gent. had said, that at a moment when the union of all the talents that could possibly be collected was so necessary to meet the dangers and difficulties by which the country was at this moment so peculiarly weighed down, he and his friends were attempting to drive from his majesty's councils a person of the most eminent talents, acknowledged virtues, manly judgment, and unquestionable integrity, which he had described. He, for one, protested against this most unfair mode of arguing. When a question of this nature was brought forward, if he had his wish, allusions to personal character would form no part of the subject. If the question was at all worthy of attention, and that it was, the right hon. gent. himself admitted, when he told us that this affair had made a deep impression on the country, and that the grounds on which it was supported appeared at first view
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Lord Temple
said, he was convinced that the hon. mover of this business had not brought it forward as a party question. He was satisfied that, as he himself stated, he had brought it forward entirely as a constitutional question, which he would have supported at any moment, and in opposition to any administration. Yet he lamented much that before such a thing was proposed, the hon. mover and those who thought with him had not better weighed the authorities on which they had acted. Nobody was readier than he was to admit, that while the king had an undoubted right, by his prerogative, to choose his ministers, parliament had a right to declare its approbation or disapprobation of those ministers. But when a charge, instead of being brought against the ministers collectively, was confined to one individual, it assumed a most invidious aspect. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) had said that his right hon. friend (Mr. Bond) had admitted that an impression had been made on the minds of the people of this country by the measure in question, and that it was a very proper subject for enquiry. But then that impression had been made, not by the thing itself, but because several respectable people had expressed doubts on the subject, to whose oppinions they were accustomed to pay a becoming deference. This was
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admitted, that up to 1763, lord Mansfield sat regularly in the Cabinet, but never after 1765; therefore the latter part of his life was, in this respect, a condemnation of the first.
Mr. Secretary Fox rose
and spoke as follows:—Before I proceed to discuss the merits of the question under consideration, I beg leave to say a word or two as to the advice which the hon. mover has thought proper to offer me; an advice which, by the bye, was the strangest prelude that could be imagined to the observations which afterwards followed. First, the hon. gent. tells me I must not adhere to my former principles, if I hope for the support of parliament and the country, and yet the instant after (whimsical enough to be sure) he recommends me to act consistently with myself by supporting the proposition he has thought proper to bring forward. Thus, he would have me abandon all my former sentiments, and still, in a particular case that suits his opinion, persevere in maintaining them. He would have me too not to recollect the principles I expressed upon the subject of sir Elijah Impey. No, the hon. gent. would fain have me bound not by any opinion which I ever did express, but by one which I did not. Now, with regard to the subject before the house, I must say, that the introduction of it is to me matter of surprise. It is the first instance that I have ever heard of such a thing as the Cabinet council becoming the subject of debate in this house. I never knew of the exercise of the king's preroga-
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Lord Castlereagh rose
and spoke as follows:—Sir; notwithstanding the triumphant tone in which the right hon. gent. has concluded his speech, and the ability which has pervaded every part of it, the objections which I have from the first felt to the measure, the propriety of which is now brought under the consideration of the house, remain undiminished. Upon a question of such constitutional importance, it is satisfactory to observe the temper and moderation with which the argument has been conducted. No subject could have a stronger claim to be discussed upon its own merits unmixed with party feelings, and it is only to be lamented that the reluctance felt by many of those who most condemn the introduction of lord Ellenborough to the Cabinet, to assume even on a single point the appearance of opposition to the new administration before it has received a fair trial, is likely to prevent the sense of parliament from being taken as fully and fairly upon this measure as the importance of it seems to require.—In stating my sentiments upon the question, I should wish to examine how far the practice of introducing a common law Judge, and more especially a Chief Justice into the Cabinet, can be justified upon the ground of direct precedent, or even of analogy drawn from their habitual introduction into other branches of the constitution.—And first, as to those parliamentary precedents which may be considered as of higher authority than the practice of any individual, however eminent or respectable: this part of the argument rests upon the three regency acts of
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Lord Henry Petty
said, he should not have troubled the house after the able speech of his right hon, friend, had it not been for the allusion to himself. His lordship said, that the correctness of the pub-
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Mr. Perceval
said, that notwithstanding the extraordinary display of ability exhibited by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) the question stood exactly where it did. The public sentiment, which he had taken much pains to ascertain, was, that the measure was dangerous, unconstitutional, and alarming; and he was sure that the discussion would extend that opinion, which among all classes and parties, even among the friends of the ministry, was universal. The common sense of the matter was this, that the functions of a chief justice of the King's Bench, and a member of Cabinet, were incompatible; and it was even admitted by
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Mr. Sheridan
said, he was not a little surprised at the language of the hon. and learned gent. who spoke last. He seemed to condemn the Conduct of ministers, because, the moment notice was given of the present motion, modesty had not induced them to accede to the object of it without rendering a discussion necessary. The late Minister, with whom that hon. and learned gent. had acted, had not certainly often shewn this excess of modesty, and at leas his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Fox) had not the advantage of any such example from their immediate predecessors in office. He did not, however, wonder, that the hon. and learned gent. wished to avoid the debate; in this respect, his discretion was commendable; for he had been able to support his favourite position by such frivolous arguments, that its weakness was completely exposed. But the hon. and learned gent. said, he had used the greater industry to collect the public sentiment, and the opinions given, from all descriptions of persons were uniformly against the appointment of lord Ellenborough to a seat in the Cabinet. There were two ways of asking questions; the one to gratify innocent curiosity, the other to excite mischievous suspicions: what was the design of the hon. and learned gent. in his
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Mr. Wilberforce
began by observing, that he should speak with great seriousness on a topic on which the right hon. gent. who had just sat down, had touched with his usual jocoseness; and declared that it gave him real pain to be under the necessity of taking a part that night, which might perhaps be construed into a disposition to oppose the new government. To enter into systematic opposition as a party man, was contrary alike to his principles and his feelings, and he could sincerely assure his majesty's ministers that he wished to support them, and that it would give him pleasure if their measures should be such as to enable him to gratify this inclination. But the present occasion was one on which he felt it his indispensable duty to support the motion of his hon. friend below him (Mr. Stanhope); and he must say, that notwithstanding his admiration of the uncommon talents which had been exhibited by the right hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Fox), who had also been very ably supported by the noble lord (lord Henry Petty) the real strength, the plain common sense of the question remained utterly unshaken, and it would be impossible for
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cui bono
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List of the Minority.
Ainslie, R. S.
Lenox, C.
Babington, T.
Long, Right Hon. C.
Bagwell, Wm
Longfield, M.
Binning, Lord
Louvaine, Lord
Baker, W.
Mordaunt, C.
Bootle, G. W.
Ma
Bourne, W. S.
Morland, W.
Brodie, J.
Morsham, Lord
Broderick, Hon. W.
Osborn, J.
Browne, I. H.
Paget, Hon. E.
Burton General
Primrose, Lord
Canning, Right Hon. G.
Percival, Hon. S.
Castlereagh, Lord
Phipps, Hon. E.
Cowper, Hon. S.
Pole, Hon. W.
De Blaquicre, Lord
Powell, J. Kynaston
Dalrymple, Sir H.
Rose, Right Hon. G.
Dilion, Hon. H. A.
Rose, G.H.
Egerton, Wm.
Ryder, Hon. R.
Ellis, C. R.
Seymour, Lord R.
Fellows, W.
Sitwell, F.
Fitzharris, Lord
Smith, T. A.
Fitzhugh, W.
Stanhope, W. S.
Foster, Right Hon. J.
Stewart, Hon. C. W.
Garlies, Lord
Tarleton, B.
Hammett, J.
Templetown, lord
Hinchinbrook, Lord
Wallance, F.
Holford, G. P.
Ward, R.
Huskisson, W.
Wortley, J. A. S.
Jeffery, J.
Wilberforce, W.
Lascelles, Hon. E.
Williams, Robert
Lascelles, Hon. H.
Wright, J. A.
Le Fleming, Sir M.
Willoughby, H.
Leigh, R. H.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 4.
[MINUTES.] Lord Crewe
was introduced between lord Vernon and lord Carysfort. His patent of creation having been read at the table, his lordship took the oaths and his seat.—Lord Eldon delivered his opinion at some length respecting the appeal from Scotland, Ogilvy v. the Carran Company, after which he moved to postpone the further consideration of it till Friday. Ordered.—Mr. Alexander, and several other members of the commons, brought up the Qualification Indemnity bill and three private bills, which were severally read a first time.
[WITNESSES' INDEMNITY BILL.] Lord Holland
moved the order of the day upon this bill for the purpose of postponing it. Understanding, he said, front what passed in the house in consequence of the opinions delivered by the Judges, that there was an intention of framing a declaratory act as to what the law really was respecting the liability of a witness to answer questions of the nature stated in the questions referred to the Judges, he did not wish to press this bill at the present moment. He must confess, however, that he had not any very sanguine expectation of
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Lord Eldon
assured the noble lord that his noble and learned friend on the woolsack had lost no time in preparing a declaratory bill, which the difference of opinion amongst the Judges had rendered necessary. His noble and learned friend had submitted the bill to his consideration; and he, thinking there were several objections to it, framed another, which, however, on consideration, he thought was more objectionable than that drawn by his noble and learned friend. The subject was involved in considerable difficulties, and he had great doubts whether a bill could be so framed as to provide against the exceptions Which necessarily occurred to the general rule.
The Lord Chancellor
thought there would be little difficulty in framing a general declaratory law upon the subject. It was obvious that some measure was necessary, in consequence of the opinions delivered by the Judges. Had the questions arose out of a proceeding by writ of error to that house, their lordships would have had to decide judicially upon the law, and would most probably have decided according to the opinion of the majority of the Judges; in that case, the law upon the subject would have been settled for ever. The mode, however, in which these questions had been put to the Judges, and the answer they had given, rendered it absolutely necessary to resort to a declaratory law upon the subject, which was the only method of proceeding they could now adopt. He held in his hand a bill which he had framed, and which he thought would answer the purpose, declaring that it was, and ever had been the law, that a witness was bound to answer any question, although such answer might acknowledge, or tend to acknowledge a debt, or render him liable to a civil suit, He was aware, however, of the necessity of having a proviso, with respect to the exceptions to this general rule and he hoped his noble and learned friend (lord Eldon) would take the subject into
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 4.
[MINUTES.] Lord J. Townshend,
took the oaths and his seat.—Lord Ossulston gave notice that he would to-morrow bring forward a motion relative to the debt of the East-India company.—Mr. W. Smith presented a petition from Messrs. Chalmers and Cowie, Swedish merchants under the following circumstances: when a committee of the house was appointed, during the late scarcity, to enquire into the causes of the high price of provisions, &c. two Swedish merchants had appeared before that committee, and undertook the importation of a large quantity Of herrings, from Sweden, with a view to relieve, in some measure, the distresses of the people. Under the sanction of the committee they sent out a cutter to Gottenburgh to buy up the herrings before the news could arrive, which might have raised the price of herrings in Sweden. A great quantity was provided, and in this situation it was found necessary by government, in pursuance of a more pressing policy, to lay an embargo on Swedish vessels. None could consequently come here from Sweden; and though the merchants had immediately done every thing in their power to dispose of the herrings to the best advantage, they had lost no less than 35,000
l.
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viz.
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[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Mr. Whitbread,
from the committee appointed to draw up articles of impeachment against Henry lord viscount Melville, informed the house, that further matters had come to the knowledge of the said committee, in the course of the examinations taken before them, with respect to the conduct of the said lord viscount Melville, during the time that he held the office of treasurer of his majesty's navy; which I information the committee think it of importance to communicate to the house, if the house shall please to receive the same. It was thereupon ordered, "That the said committee have leave to report such further matters as shall have come to their knowledge in the course of the examinations taken before them with respect to the conduct of the said lord viscount Melville, during the time that he held the office of treasurer of his majesty's navy." Mr. Whitbread accordingly reported from the said committee such further matters as they appeared to them; and he read the report in his place, and afterwards delivered the same, together with an Appendix thereunto, in at the table, where the report was read. It was also ordered, that the said Report be taken into further consideration upon Friday next, and be printed for the members of the house. A copy of the report will be found in the Appendix to the present volume.
[WOOLLEN MANUFACTURERS.] Mr. Wilberforce
presented a petition of the manufacturers of Woollen Cloth in the county of York, setting forth, "that from
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Mr. Peter Moore
presented a petition on the same subject, from the Cloth Workers of York and Lancaster. He hoped that as the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) had said a few words in favour of his own petition, he would also say something in favour of the petition which he held in his hand. This petition had been presented for three years successively, and last year it was put off upon an understanding that the subject was to be seriously investigated by the ministers. The change, however, which took place, had prevented the desired effect from this circumstance. But, however, the present ministry had agreed to take the affair into consideration, and he, was now authorised to state, that this petition was brought forward with the sanction of office.
Lord Temple
expressed the wishes of ministers to afford every facility possible to the steps that might be taken for the settling of this business. It had engaged the attention of the privy council, and it had occurred to them that another bill should be brought in to continue the suspension of the present regulations, with a view to bring in a bill as soon as possible, to fix the proper regulations. In his opinion one bill would not answer the purpose.He thought that different bills would be requisite, according to the various points to be settled.
Mr. H. Laseelles
expressed his satisfac-
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Mr. C. Brooke
said, he was so sensible of the necessity of some effectual regulations, that he was willing to give every assistance in his power towards a revision of all the laws upon the subject.
Mr. H. Lascelles
wished lo submit whether it would not be proper to appoint a committee for revising the laws relating to the Woollen Manufacture in general?
Earl Temple
replied, that he did not know of any objection to it.
The Speaker
thought it might be right to remind them, that the practice of the house with the view of convenience, in such cases was to appoint a committee of revision, in preference to bringing in a number of different bills.—The petition was then ordered to lie on the table; as was also another petition to the same effect, from the Cloth Workers of Wilts, Somerset, and Gloucester.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 5.
[MINUTES.]
In an appeal from the court of King's Bench, Macdonall v. Baily, Mr. Knapp was heard for the defendant, after which the judgment of the court of King's Bench was affirmed, with 80
l
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 5.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Hutchinson
presented a petition from the city of Cork, praying for leave to bring in a bill to enable the inhabitants to erect a new gaol in Cork. Leave granted.—Mr. Fordyce presented tile third report from the surveyor-general of the land revenues, which, on the motion, of Mr. Vansittart, was ordered to be printed.—Mr. Allnutt, from the commissioners of the Thames navigation, presented, an Abstract of an Account of all money received and disbursed by the commissioners appointed for improving and completing the navigation of the rivers Thames and Isis in the year 1805.—The Marine Mutiny bill was reported, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.—Lord Temple brought in the bill for allowing the exportation of corn and other articles for the use of his majesty's foreign garrisons; which was read a first time.—On the motion of the secretary at war, the Foreign Soldiers' bill went through a committee. The report was ordered to be received tomorrow.
[LORD COLLING WOOD'S ANNUITY BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
moved, that the house should resolve itself into a committee, to consider the circumstances of lord Coilingwood's family.—On the question being put,
Mr. Bastard
said, before the house went into the committee, he wished to address a few words, by way of question, to the noble lord. He understood lady Collingwood, in case of her surviving her lord, was to have the annuity continued to her for her life. He thought it very right it should be so; but, what he wished to know, was, whether any provision was intended to be made for the unfortunate widows of captains of men of war, whose husbands had fallen gallantly defending their country in the glorious battle of Trafalgar? Captain Duff had so fallen, and had left behind him a disconsolate widow to mourn his loss, and, at the same time, the loss of her subsistance, for he understood she was very ill provided for; capt. Cooke had also fallen on the same glorious occasion, and had left a widow in a similar predicament. He wished, therefore, to know, whether it were intended any provision should be made for those unfortutunate ladies? and he hoped he should not be deemed troublesome by the noble lord in asking the question.
Lord Henry Petty
expressed his partci
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Paull
gave notice of a motion for Friday, for the production of three or four more papers to lay the grounds of an additional charge against lord Wellesley.
Lord Temple
asked whether it was the intention of the hon. gent. to bring forward on Friday the additional charge he alluded to, or to move only for papers?
Mr. Paull
replied, that he meant to move for the papers, and they would form all the documents he thought necessary upon this subject. If they should be produced in due time, he gave notice that he would in the course of the first week after the recess bring forward his accusations against lord Wellesley.
Mr. H. Addington
begged the hon. gent. to describe the nature of the papers to which his intended motion would refer?
Mr. Paull
said that there was a prince in India called the Rajah of Bhurtpore, with respect to whom the hon. member was proceeding to make some remarks, when he was called to order by the Speaker, who directed the hon. gent. to confine himself to the answer required of him. The hon. gent. then stated, that the papers he meant to move for related to the conduct of lord Wellesley towards the Rajah of Bhurtpore.
[ARMY ESTIMATES.] The Secretary at War
presented the army estimates, which the right hon. gent. stated to be formed on the same scale precisely with those for 3 months, which had been voted on the
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Lord Castlereagh
took occasion to state, that the motion of the late ministers for proposing the estimates for only three months, was in order to leave their successors completely unfettered. He was enabled to say, that were it not for that consideration, the late administration was fully purposed at the time to bring forward a plan for the permanent military establishment of the year.
[WOOL EXPORTATION BILL.] Lord Temple
brought up a bill to permit the exportation of wool, from the British plantations in America, to the united kingdom. On the motion for its first reading,
Mr. Harrison
entertained objections to this measure, which he conceived likely to injure the landed interest, but he would reserve the full statement of these objections to a future stage. In the mean time he hoped that some regulations would be introduced into it, that might render it less exceptionable. It struck him, that if the unlimited importation of wool were permitted, the effect would be to discourage the growth of that article at home, by placing the landed interest at the discretion of the manufacturers, who would, upon a surplus in consequence of the importation, be at liberty to offer any price they pleased. The importation at present allowed, proceeded from a wish to obtain the fine wool of Spain to mix with our own. But we had no want of the coarse wool of America. Indeed he could not conceive any reason for this bill. We had no scarcity of wool whatever, and therefore the bill was, on the face of it, unnecessary, and he much feared its effects would be injurious.
Lord Temple
called to the recollection of the house, that the importation of wool from the united states of America was already permitted, and the only object of this bill was to grant to our own colonies the
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Mr. Harrison
recommended every encouragement to the growth of wool, upon the same principle that the legislature encouraged the growth of corn. He advised the introduction of a clause into this bill, imposing a small duty on the wool imported, as the best means of ascertaining that which was very desirable, namely, the quantity of the importation.—The bill was then read a first time.
[REPORT FROM IMPEACHMENT COMMITTEE RESPECTING MR. TROTTER.] Mr. Whitbread
reported from the committee, appointed to draw up articles of Impeachment against Henry lord viscount Melville; "that he was directed by the committee to acquaint the house, that Alexander Trotter, esq. late paymaster to Henry lord viscount Melville, whilst treasurer of his majesty's navy, having been examined by the said committee, did refuse to answer to what had been demanded of him by the said committee." The hon. gent. then moved,"That the entry in the journal of the house, of the 13th of April 1742, of the proceedings of this house, in relation to Mr. Nicholas Paxton, might be read:" And the same being read; the hon. gent. moved, "That the said Alexander Trotter, esq. be, for his said offence, taken into the custody of the serjeant at arms attending this house; and that Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant accordingly." [The speaker, in putting the question, substituted by mistake the name of Alexander Davison, for Alexander Trotter, which occasioned a general laugh.] On the question being put,
Sir W. Elford
rose and expressed his hope that the house would not adopt the proposition of the hon. member, and consent to commit Mr. Trotter for refusing to answer the questions alluded to, upon a fair consideration of the reasons which induced that refusal. When Mr. Trotter understood that he was to be examined before this committee, he very naturally considered the propriety of declining to answer any questions which might have
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Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that if no bill of indemnity whatever had passed, or was passing through parliament, still it would be extremely wrong in the house to take the course recommended by the hon. bart., and refuse to sanction the conduct of its committee. Upon such an application as that under discussion, it was not for the house to consider whether Trotter was legally compellable to answer certain questions which might have been put to him by the committee. Now, it should be taken for granted, that the questions proposed to him were correct; otherwise the house had not a proper confidence in its committee. What was the case? Why, that upon the recommendation of this committee, a bill was brought in, to indemnify Trotter from any civil action that might arise out of his answers before them, although the opinion of many lawyers was, that he was compellable to answer questions of that tendency; and that opinion, which prevailed before the bill was introduced, was since strengthened by the declaration of a great majority of the Judges. How could the house then, upon a question so circumstanced, reconcile it to itself to delay the progress of this prosecution, in the manner the hon. bart. proposed? Such a proceeding would be, in fact, to withdraw their confidence from the committee, and to imply a suspicion that that confidence had been abused. Coupling the proposition of the hen. bart. for delay, with what had taken place last year, when, by a mere majority of one, the cause of justice had triumphed, the house could not be unaware of the object. But he trusted that the house would not sanction the disposition that was manifested to withhold from this committee the degree of confidence which had never been refused to any committee upon similar occasions.
Mr. Whitbread
observed, that if the motion he had introduced at the instance of the committee, should not be agreed to, the house had better withdraw its confidence from that committee altogether. It was impossible for him, consistently with his duty, to state at present what passed in the committee, but at the same time he could say, that Mr. Trotter was treated,
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Sir W. Elford
disclaimed any intention, in the observations which he felt it his duty to submit, to impeach the integrity of, or weaken the confidence due to, the committee.—The motion was agreed to.
Mr. Whitbread
said, he should decline to go to the extent of the precedent which the house had heard read, and which committed the refractory witness to Newgate, &c. He should only move that the serjeant at arms shall attend Mr. Trotter before the committee, whenever they shall think proper to examine him.—Agreed to.
[MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS.] Mr. Long rose
and said, that seeing a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) now in his place, he wished to ask him, at what time he intended to propose to the house his Plan, respecting the arrangements of the military establishment. He did not, he said, put this question, with a view to embarrass the government of which the right hon. gent. was now a member, but because he felt it was of high importance, that any alteration intended to be made should be known as soon as possible, since the longer such information was withheld, the greater embarrassment would arise to the service; as those exertions which might be made by gentlemen at this sea
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Dr. Laurence rose
to order, and observed, that the hon. member, instead of propounding a short question irregularly across the house, was proceeding into a detail, which might lead to a disorderly debate, there being no regular question before the house.
Mr. Speaker
agreed to the propriety of this observation.
Mr. Long
professed that his object was to state the reasons which induced him to put a question, upon a subject, with regard to which he disclaimed any intention to produce inconvenience to the right hon. gent. to whom it was addressed, but to obtain some satisfactory information, as to arrangements, in the proposition of which, he trusted, that no delay would take place which could possibly be avoided.
Mr. Secretary Windham
said, he was very ready to give the right hon. gent. every satisfaction in his power, relative to the point alluded to. The right hon. gent. had, however, in asking the question, desired to know, when he meant to bring forward his Plan? He did not understand what he meant by the words, "his Plan." He had never mentioned any Plan to the house; nor had he ever heard, that any other member had done so for him. The business of the military establishment, for the present year, had been taken up by his majesty's ministers, immediately on their coming into office; and it had ever since engaged their most serious, minute, and continued, attention and consideration. They had, however, found it delicate, difficult, and highly important, and as such, had not been forward to say any thing of it to the house, till they were able to bring it, among themselves, to a state of sufficient maturity, and, whenever they should find it in such a state, both their duty and inclination would lead them to lay it before the house, as speedily as the nature and importance of it would possibly admit.
Mr. Canning
observed, that there stood a notice upon the votes of the house, given on the first day of the session by a right hon. gent. whom he did not now see
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Mr. Windham
said, he had already declared his object to time house, so. far as he was yet prepared to explain himself on the subject of military arrangements. He had, however, no objection to answer the question of the right hon. gent. in substance, that in the plan of defence now in contemplation, that bill certainly would not have a place.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday,March 6.
[MINUTES.] Lord Tyrawley,
one of the representative peers of Ireland, took the oaths and his seat.—The Qualification Indemnity bill passed through a committee, and was reported.—Mr. Johnson, from the office of chief secretary for Ireland, presented an account of the state of the prisons in Ireland for the year 1805, which was ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Allnutt, from the commissioners of Thames Navigation, presented an account of the receipts and disbursements of that board for the year 1805, which was also ordered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 6.
[MINUTES.] Colonel Vereker
reported from the committee, to whom the petition from the city of Limerick had been referred, and obtained leave to bring in a bill for the more equal taxing, and the better paving, cleansing, and lighting the city of Limerick.—Mr. Alderman Combe presented a petition from several persons, owners and proprietors of houses, in Skinner-street, Snow-hill, and in Pickett street, Temple-Bar, praying leave to dispose of the same by way of lottery. He also presented a petition from the Master Shoe-makers of the city of London, praying for certai
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[MR. TROTTER'S PETITION TO BE DISCHARGED.] Mr. Whitbread
stated, that the conduct of Mr. Trotter before the committee appointed to prepare articles of impeachment against lord Melville this morning, justified him in offering to the house a petition, praying that he should be discharged. The petition was then brought up and read by the clerk; setting forth, "that the petitioner was committed to the custody of the serjeant at arms, for not answering certain questions put to him by a committee appointed by the house; and the petitioner hopes that such his refusal will not be ascribed to any want of deference or respect to the house, or to their committee, but to a sense of regard to his personal security, which, from his legal advisers, he understood would be endangered were he to answer such questions; but, since the declaration of the house respecting such his refusal, the petitioner most respectfully acquaints the house, that he is now most ready to attend the said committee, for the purpose of examination, and to answer such questions, deeply regretting his error, and begging pardon for the same; and therefore praying, that the house will order him to be discharged
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 7.
[WITNESSES LIABILITY BILL.] The Lord Chancellor
quitted the woolsack, and stated, he had a declaratory bill to submit to the consideration of their lordships; he adverted to the proceedings and discussions which had taken place, and which had induced the proposal of the present bill. These, their lordships would recollect, arose principally from a question proposed by a noble and learned friend of his, "Whether, according to law, a witness were bound to answer questions, the answers to which did not tend to accuse himself, but to establish, or tend to establish, that he owes a debt, recoverable by a civil suit?" On this, the opinion of the Judges was called for, and a great majority of them were of opinion, that a witness had no such right to demur. After such a decision, and what had been stated by his noble and learned friend (lord Eldon), that in the course of his long experience, he never heard of such a claim, urged on
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Lord Eldon
made a few remarks on the nature of the opinions delivered by the learned Judges; of whom, seven, out of the eleven who delivered their opinions regularly, were, as the noble lord on the woolsack stated; at the same time, it should be recollected, that those who delivered a contrary opinion, did it as a general rule of law, which they admitted liable to many exceptions. This seemed, in the sentiment of the noble and learned lord,
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[WITNESSES INDEMNITY BILL.]
Lord Holland observed, that in the course of the various discussions respecting the subject involved in this bill, several objections had been made to the bill which he had hitherto forebore to notice, but on which he could not avoid troubling their lordships with a few words, before he moved to discharge the order on it. After giving a short detail of the progress of the indemnity bill brought in last session, and of the bill now before the house, together with the questions referred to the Judges, and their opinions, he contended, that the present bill had been mistated by the noble and learned lord (Eldon), on a former occasion, to be an ex post facto law, neither was it the object of the bill, to alter the law as already existing. Those who had framed the bill, had done it with the best views and the best intentions, and in supporting the bill in that house, he had no other object than that complete justice should be done in the case to which it referred. He wished their lordships to keep in mind the precise grounds on which the bill stood; if a witness in any suit in a court of law was interested, he might be rendered a competent witness by means of a release; the present bill would have operated as a release to certain witnesses, of any debts which might be due from them to the crown. It was here that, according to the law, as stated by a majority of the Judges, and as about to be declared by the bill presented by his noble and learned friend, that a witness could not demur to a question on the ground, that the answer would render him liable to a civil action for a debt, but the bill went away to release the witnesses in the case mentioned, from those debts which could serve them for any ground of demurrer. He should not press the bill upon their lordships' attention now that a declaratory act had been presented, but should only observe, in addition to what lie had stated, that the bill was sanctioned by precedents, respecting which he would content himself with referring their lordships to Viner's abridgement, and Mr. Cowper's reports. There was, however, one objection to the bill which he had not
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Lord Eldon
said, he still maintained his former opinion with respect to this bill. As to the analogy stated by the noble lord in the case of releasing a witness, it did not apply to the bill, there being no such thing known in a court of law as releasing a witness in the event of his making a full and fair disclosure, the release must be unconditional, or else it was a nullity.—The order was then discharged.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 7.
[MINUTES.]
The sheriffs of London presented at the bar, a petition from the lord mayor, aldermen, and commons of the city of London, stating, that the existing acts relative to a free market for coals in the city of London were defective, and praying leave to bring in a bill to amend and render the same more effectual. Referred to a committee.—Mr. Fox presented a petition from the company of Butchers of the city of London, setting forth "that an act was passed 43 Geo. III. to extend the provisions of two acts, passed 39 and 40 and 41 Geo. III. relating to the use of horse hides in making boots and shoes, and preventing the damaging of raw hides and skins in the flaying thereof, and. to alter and amend the same, as to the cities of London and Westminster, and borough of Southwark and liberties thereof, and all places within 15 miles of the Royal Exchange; and that. the petitioners and other Butchers residing within the limits of the said act have sustained very considerable loss by the operation thereof; and that the petitioners conceive the intentions of the said act might be more easily and effectually carried into execution, if the said act was repealed, and the necessary powers and provisions, so far as relates to the limits therein mentioned, comprised in one act: and there-
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[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE—Additional Article.] Mr. Whitbread
moved the order of the day for the house taking into consideration the report from the committee appointed to draw up articles of Impeachment against lord Melville. He then said that he was unwilling to take up the time of the house, by entering much at length into the details of the report, which were already before them; and, indeed, it would be unnecessary to do so, as he trusted, that the house, from what had
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Mr. Whitbread
brought up a report, which was as follows:
"The committee appointed to draw up articles of impeachment against Henry lord visc. Melville, and who were ordered to prepare a further Article, have, purseant to the order of the house, prepared a further article against the said lord viscount Melville; which is as followeth;
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Mr. Whitbread
then moved, that this article be taken into further consideration on Monday.
Mr. Perceval
felt himself unable, at the moment, to make up his mind as to the strict legality of this measure. He gave the committee the greatest credit for their exertions, but it had occurred to him, and he thought it might be useful to suggest to the committee, that even were the house to vote this additional article of impeachment, certainly contrary to precedent, and probably objectionable in some other respects, it might meet with considerable obstruction and opposition in another place.
Mr. Whitbread
allowed, that the lords might possibly object to this article, as not having received it before the defendant had put in his reply to the former articles. But undoubtedly, if the lords should be of opinion that a fresh article of impeachment could not be exhibited, and should refuse to receive it, it certainly was competent to the house, on the discovery of fresh crimes, to prefer an altogether fresh impeachment. Not only the reason of the thing, but motives of convenience to both houses, would, be trusted, induce their lordships to adopt a different determination. The motion was agreed to.
[ARMY ESTIMATES.]
On the motion of the Secretary at War, the house resolved itself into a committee on the Army Estimates.
General Tarleton
said, he understood, that the estimates now on the table were merely a continuation of those laid before the house by the former ministers. He thought it extraordinary that the new ministers had not yet brought forward their own plans for the defence of the country, particularly as the declarations of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), on the Defence Act, and the volunteer system, must operate unfavourably on each of them, and thus tend to diminish our effective force, while nothing else was substituted in their place. After all the activity which that right hon. gent. had displayed in his speeches, and all the plans which he had given grounds to expect, nothing had yet been produced.
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Mr. Windham
replied, that the rapidity and decision advised by the hon. general might be proper in the field, but not in the cabinet. All delay must be viewed as relative to the object to be accomplished. Considerable alterations in various and complicated departments of the public service, required deliberation proportioned to their magnitude and importance. He objected to gentlemen calling for plans from him, as the frequenters of the theatre called for an entertainment. He did not feel disposed to indulge them, and their impatience should never provoke him to lay any thing before the house that seemed to himself immature.
Mr. Canning
contended that justice had not been done to the Defence act. Early in the session a notice had been given of a motion for its repeal; and a measure which could only be carried into effect by great exertions, was paralysed by this threatened repeal.
The Secretay
at War repeated the observation which he made on presenting the army estimates, and concluded with moving the following resolutions, which were agreed to: 1. "That the number of 134,473 effective men be granted for the service of his majesty, from the 25th of March to the 24th of May inclusive: 2. That 795,460l. be granted to his majesty, for guards and garrisons for that period: 3. That 336,693l. be granted to his majesty for foreign garrisons for the same period."—The house having been resumed, the report was ordered to be received on Monday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 10.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Whitbread,
accompanied by several members of the commons, presented at the bar, in the name of the commons of the united kingdom, the further article of impeachment against lord Melville. The article was read at the table; after which lord Auckland moved that it be referred to the committee appointed to search for precedents of the proceedings of that house on cases of Impeachment.—Ordered.
[INSOLVENT DEBTORS.] Lord Holland,
on presenting a petition from certain debtors confined in the King's Bench, praying relief, addressed a few observations to the house, on the subject of Insolvent Debtors, and the practice of imprisoning such debtors. He observed, that the general subject to which the petition he had the ho-
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The Earl of Moira rose,
and alluded to some forcible objections which had been entertained to partial Insolvent bills; but, notwithstanding these objections, his feelings and opinions upon the subject were such, that he should be inclined to countenance a temporary Insolvent Debtors' bill, were such a measure brought before the house; but circumstanced as he then was, he could not undertake to bring forward such a bill himself. On the general subject, he had not in the least altered his sentiments, they remained the same; but his duties and avocations were of such importance, and mostly of such a nature, as to admit of no postponement, that he saw no chance of his being able to give a measure of the kind that degree of attention it evidently required. Neither did he think the time and arrangements of the house would allow it, in the course of the present session, sufficiently to investigate and apply adequate legislative provisions, with respect to the general subject. There were two important trials pending, which would occupy all the time the house could spare from its ordinary legislative business; under these circumstances, he seemed to think the general subject could not be
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The Lord Chancellor
observed, that under his circumstances also, he did not consider himself as duly prepared to bring such a bill before their lordships; but, as his noble friend who had last spoken stated, he should give every attention in his power to a bill of the kind, if brought forward. He agreed with his noble friends in what they said relative to the general subject. He had, in the course of his long professional experience, seen many instances of individuals deprived of their liberties through misfortune, and had frequent occasion to lament the unhappy consequences in that point of view, of the operation of the present laws. After a few further remarks on this part of the subject, the noble and learned lord said, if such a bill as that adverted to by his noble friend, should be brought forward, he would contribute his assistance in forwarding the measure, towards the relief of the unhappy objects of it.—The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 10.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Johnson,
from the office of the chief secretary of Ireland, presented at the bar, an account of the ordinary revenue of Ireland, pursuant to an order of the house.—Mr. Calcraft presented the ordnance estimates, and gave notice that although it was earlier than the usual practice, yet as he apprehended no objection would be made to his proposition, and as it would be attended with much convenience, he would move them in the committee of supply on Friday.—On the motion of Mr. Whitbread, the order of the day of taking into further consideration the report of the committee appointed to prepare another article of impeachment against lord Melville, was read. He then moved, that the said article be one other of the articles of impeachment against lord vis-
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[ELECTION TREATING ACT] Mr. Tierney,
pursuant to the notice he had formerly given, rose to bring forward his motion for leave to bring in a bill to explain and render more effectual, an act made in the 7th and 8th of William III. chap. 4, for preventing charge and expence in elections of members to serve in parliament. Every gentleman with whom he had conversed on the subject, agreed with him on the necessity of some measure for giving effect to an act of parliament, which had been found by uniform experience, to fall in most cases greatly short of the object it avowed; but many were of opinion the attempt would be attended with difficulties scarcely surmountable. It was by no means his intention to give to that act any new construction, to the exclusion of any particular class or description of voters, or to pervert its meaning from the object it fairly avowed; but merely to remove the doubts which had arisen upon its construction in the minds of committees appointed to try the merits of elections, and to give it some certain and defined construction; and the construction which he should propose, was precisely that which had always struck his own mind on the subject. The object of the act in question, was to exempt candidates from the enormous demands to which they were made liable, under the head of charges for the conveyance and travelling expences of voters not resident at the place of election, and to prevent the system of bribery and corruption which, under the pretence of such charges, might be and actually were carried on. The evils in those cases could not arise in places where the voters were all residents of the town or vicinage, but where persons claiming a right to vote at such elections resided at a distance, often at the extremity of a county, which constantly gave rise to scenes of confusion and enormous expence; for, in
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Mr. Secretary Fox
allowed that he was one of those who had a good will towards the object of the hon. gent.'s motion. It was necessary for him to rise at this early stage of the question to say, that he did not think so lightly of the difficulties that were in the way of that object, as the hon. gent. There might be means discovered of removing them, but they were certainly not trifling. With regard to what had been said about the 40
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Mr. Tierney
explained. All he wished was, that the law should be distinctly established, but in doing this, it was his earnest desire to prevent the possibility of any man's being disfranchised. What the right hon. gent. had said of the hardships
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Mr. Lee
gave great credit to the hon. gent. for the excellence of his intention, and for the clearness with which he had explained it, but agreed with the right hon. gent. under him (Mr. Fox), that the difficulties in the way were considerable. Without a great many safeguards, the result of the bill must be the disfranchisements of some thousands of electors. If it were rendered impossible for a man to vote except by making a journey, the expense of which he could not afford, it would he much the same thing as depriving him of his right altogether.
Sir Robert Buxton
wished only to advert to one statement that had been made by the right hon. mover. He had said that the voter exercised his right for his own pleasure; now he had always conceived that he exercised it for the benefit of the public at large.—The question was then put, and leave was given to bring in the bill.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Johnstone
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for copies of two letters written by lord Cornwallis to the court of directors; as also of a letter from sir George Barlow, his successor in the government of India. He disclaimed any personal animosity to the marquis Wellesley, or any wish to bring charges against him, but he thought it was necessary that the house should at length turn its attention to the mode in which India had been for a long time governed, and that the members should compare the system of lord Cornwallis with that of his predecessor, and make up their minds on the subject. As for his part, he felt that the empire was indebted to the marquis Wellesley for so much of his system as established our military reputation and ascendancy in India, but he highly disapproved of the lengths to which that system was afterwards pushed, when, under pretence of defensive war, all the native powers of India were forced to receive British garrisons, and were kept in greater subjection in their own capitals, than the kings of Whirtemburgh and Bavaria are at this moment by the emperor of France. Under vague pretences, a great
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Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that he had no intention whatever to object to the production of the papers moved for, although he must observe, that his hon. friend did not appear to him to have stated any necessity or parliamentary ground, upon which they ought to be laid before the house. As to the hon. gent.'s allusion to the propriety of a declaration on the part of his majesty's ministers, relative to the system of government meant to be acted upon with regard to India, he was at a loss to conceive any reason upon which that demand could be justified. No disposition was manifested to deviate from the course which was now pursuing respecting India; and until such disposition should appear, he apprehended that it was quite unnecessary in ministers to make any declaration upon the subject. Indeed, it seemed to his mind that, according to practice, some resolution should be adopted by the house, expressive of its opinion and wish, before ministers were called upon to enter into the question. The hon. gent. had alluded to the opinions formerly delivered by him, relative to the government of India. To these opinions, he could assure his hon. friend, that he still completely adhered. They were declared above 24 years ago; and as far as he had since had opportunity of observing the affairs of India, to which, perhaps, he had not attended as much as other men had done, or as much as he ought, he had never seen or heard of a transaction which served to weaken the confidence he entertained in the justice of his original opinions, but winch did not rather tend to their complete justification. However, an act had passed in consequence of the resolutions upon the subject of India, which he had the honour of supporting. That act had been now proceeded upon for a series of years, and when the subject should be regularly brought forward for discussion, he would be perfectly ready to state his sentiments respecting it. At present he should only say, that under that act, a board of controul had been appointed, and of all the boards which had presi-
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Mr. Hiley Addington
concurred with what had fallen from the right hen. gent. (Mr. For): he did not see that any necessity had been shewn for the production of the papers which had been moved, but at the same time he saw no objection to their being produced, especially as the contents of them were already pretty public, and as
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Mr. Charles Grant
allowed, that the system pursued by lord Wellesley, Was, as a military system, very splendid, and at tended with many advantages. But he could not think that a fit system for tranquillizing India, the effect of which had been to involve us in quarrels with all the native princes. In order to procure the re-establishment of the pacific system, the court of directors had with all their exertions promoted the return of lord Cornwallis to India. This noblemans death was much to be lamented, but there was no doubt that his successor would follow up his plans. He was happy to hear this system was to have the support of his majesty's government. With respect to the measures of lord Wellesley, the court of directors neither approved of them, nor was aware of them till they Were carried into effect. He thought that the name and character of sir George Barlow ought not to be called in question, because he was not here to defend himself.
Mr. Huddlestone.
I rise, sir, to support the motion, and shall endeavour, as briefly as I can, to state the views in Which I think it of importance, that the papers moved for should be laid before the house. The
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Mr. Paull
denied that the failure of the treaty with the rajah of Bhurtpore was owing entirely to the treachery of that prince; and read an extract from a letter of lord Wellesley, written in the month of Oct. 1803, which shewed diet his lordship had a high opinion of him. He took notice of the appointment of sir George Barlow, as a proof of the acknowledged necessity of changing the Indian system.
Mr. Secretary Fox
requested the indulgence of the house, merely to state, in allusion to what had fallen from the hon. director (Mr. Grant), that this majesty's ministers did not, in the appointment of sir G. Barlow, mean to pledge themselves to the pursuit of any particular system of government in India. The fact was, that the appointment of the hon. bart. referred to, for whom he entertained a high respect, was made even before the present administration was fully formed, in order to prevent the inconvenience of any interregnum in India.
Lord Temple
declared, that he would not have said a word about the transaction of Bhurtpore, were it not for an extract having been read from a commendatory letter, written by lord Wellesley at the time that he entertained a favourable opinion of the rajah; but, in a very short time after, he detected a correspondence of his with Holkar, for the purpose of forming a project to drive the English out of India. He piedged himself to prove, when the discussion came on, direct treachery on the part of that prince; and that the ruin of Holkar was only prevented by his lending him the cannon of the fort of Bhurtpore, at the time
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Mr. Francis.
Sir; Before I begin what I intended to say on the present motion, or rather on some collateral subjects connected with it, I beg leave to take notice of a passage in the latter part of the speech of the hon. director Op the other side (Mr. Grant). He said that the name and character of sir George Barlow ought not to be called in question, because he was not here to defend himself; much less was it just or decent to canvass the merits of any man by anonymous publications in the newspapers. That he was a person of long standing and great merit in the company's service; that, on this ground, he had been confirmed in the office of governor-general by an unanimous resolution of the court of directors, confirmed and ratified by a most deliberate and most solemn act of his majesty's present government, which he had no reason to think was not the act of the whole administration. At all events, he was now fixed in his office by concurrent resolutions of all the lawful authorities of this country. That he ought to have fair play; that his merits should be tried by his future conduct; and that, on no account, would it be just to condemn the said sir George Barlow unheard; with many other general topics of the same. Now, sir, I desire it to be observed, that though this gentleman's name and merits have been repeatedly introduced in this house, they never were mentioned, much less have they ever been canvassed by me, either here or any where else; and for a very good reason; because I myself know nothing about him. In that question I have no personal interest or information, nor a concern of any kind. What I have heard of his conduct in office, from pretty good authority, is certainly not in his favour. My information comes to me, in various ways, from the India House, and nominally from some gentlemen in the direction, who, till very lately, made no secret of their opinion. Now I would ask the hon. director, a few plain and, as I think, parliamentary questions on the case in hand, if he will allow me that freedom. Do the court of directors, does he himself approve of lord Wellesley's proceedings?—of what part? and to what
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Sir T. Metcalfe
read a passage from a letter of lord Lake to the governor-general, in which the treachery of the rajah of Bhurtpore was placed in the strongest light.
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Lord Folkestone
rose and said: Mr. Speaker; the hon. bart. (sir T. Metcalfe) below me, has in his speech renewed the charge just brought by the noble lord (Temple) below him, of treachery on the part of the Rajah of Bhurtpore. I will not at present enter into that transaction; because it is likely to be more fully discussed to-morrow, and is therefore now premature, and because perhaps I know less of the motion than I ought. But on the first blush of the business I must say, that the term treachery seems to be here most strangely applied. This rajah is a native prince of India, having natural connections with the country; we have none such, but ere really invaders, seeking to establish a dominion and to acquire an empire. In these circumstances, if these or other native chiefs should take measures for preventing us, or for expelling us, it seems to me that it might be attributed to other dispositions than those of perfidy, and such conduct be called by another name than treachery. However, we shall hear more of this hereafter.—I should not, sir, have made this observation, if I had not been called up by something else which fell, in the course of his speech, from the hon. bart. He complains that my lord Wellesley's character is continually attacked by a side-wind; and of the ungenerous reception which he has met with on his return to this country. Now, it seems to me I confess, very natural, and I am sure it is very competent, for members of this house, who have the good of the country at heart, to make the enquiries and to stir the questions, which the hon. bart. complains of. For when we consider what we have witnessed in the last 12 months, and what we now daily bear on the subject of India af-
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Mr. Charles Grant
rose to explain. With respect to sir G. Barlow, he observed, that whatever part he had taken in the measures of marquis Wellesley, was not inconsistent with the system he was now to pursue. The two Mahratta wars had come on so rapidly, that it was impossible to have any opinion upon them from this country. He was at present in possession of the opinion of his superiors, and had honestly declared his determination to act in conformity with it. Whatever other gentlemen might think upon the subject, he was himself convinced, that there was nothing dishonourable in the part that gentleman took in the mea-
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Mr. Francis,
in explanation, said:—Sir, I am obliged to the worthy direct for the testimony he has borne to the rectitude of my principles and conduct, not only in Bengal, but in England, that is, with respect to the government of India, and the true interests of the India company. In fact, however, he has done more than I asked, or expected of him. The appeal I made to him, related solely and expressly to my labours and sufferings in India, and not to my merits at home or abroad. Of the former he was an eye-witness: no man has a higher opinion of his moral character than I have. On the facts in question, there cannot be a more competent witness, nor any human evidence less to be suspected.
Mr. Wallace
was of opinion that the policy, the measures, and the whole of the system acted upon by lord Wellesley, were wise and highly beneficial, and when the subject came under discussion, he should be ready to state the grounds upon which he thought the services of that noble lord entitled him to the gratitude of the house and of the country.
Mr. Johnstone
rose to express his thanks to the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) for consenting to the production of the papers. He was glad to find that the court of directors were disposed to support the present system begun by lord Cornwallis, and that his right hon. friend retained his former sentiments on this subject. He remarked upon the difference which was known to prevail as to the system of government which ought to be acted upon in India, between the opinions formerly expressed by some of the present ministers, and the course now pursuing in that quarter. He was glad, however, now to have the. doubts which naturally rose out of the difference alluded to, completely removed by a declared change of sentiment.
Mr. Secretary Fox
observed upon the logic and the prudence evinced by the last speaker. His logic, he thought, by no means just, and his prudence was certainly not laudable. For as to his logic, it did not follow that because gentlemen thought proper to adopt a certain line of policy,
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 11.
[WITNESSES' LIABILITY BILL.]
The house resolved itself into a committee on the bill for Declaring, the Law with respect to Witnesses being liable to answer.
The Lord Chancellor
in order that there might be no doubt as to the security of witnesses against being compelled to answer any question, the answering of which might subject them to penalty or forfeiture, proposed to insert the words "any penalty or forfeiture of what nature soever," instead of the mere words "penalty or forfeiture."
Earl Stanhope
rose, and expressed his disapprobation of the bill before the committee, as a declaratory act. He expressed his hope, that, by subsequent legislative provisions, should the present bill be passed, his noble friend would guard against the mischiefs which might arise from such a measure. On this ground, however, he could not avoid coming forward and objecting to the bill as it then stood, and endeavouring to induce their lordships to divest it of its declaratory character. He was hostile to the principle of bills of that description; which, he thought, should never be passed by the legislature, except in very extreme cases. The occasion which he alluded to was, for instance, a violation of a principle of the constitution, such a case as was referred to in the preamble of the bill of rights, &c.; and such was the case of the excellent bill declaratory of the law respecting libels, proposed by a right hon. member of the other house of parliament. On that occasion, his noble and learned friend near him, (the chancellor), deserved the thanks of the country; he did not mean for his conduct with respect to the bill alluded to, but for what he had so nobly done to assert and to uphold the constitutional powers of juries. Except on Some great occasion of the kind, he never
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The Lord Chancellor
observed, it would be better, had his noble friend postponed
403
Earl Stanhope
shortly spoke in explanation. He then adverted to the language of the bill, with respect to the term "lords spiritual and temporal." These descriptions, his lordship seemed to think, ought to be reversed, not only in the present, but in future bills, inasmuch as lords temporal, meaning princes of the blood, members of that house, had precedency of the very foremost of the spiritual peers, namely, the archbishop of Canterbury.
Lord Auckland
deprecated an alteration of the kind, without the fullest and most mature consideration; deeming it far preferable to abide by the uniform practice of parliament, and to follow the example of their ancestors in such cases.—The question was then put, on an amendment as proposed by earl Stanhope, tending to do away the effect of the declaratory part of the bill, but which was negatived by the committee. Their lordships then agreed to the amendments proposed by the lord
404
Earl Stanhope
moved, that the bill for the more effectual Discovery of Truth, be read a second time to-morrow, which was ordered accordingly.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 11.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Irwin
inspector-general of imports and exports, presented an account of all the duties on, customs,charged and outstanding, on the 5th of Jan. 1805 and 1806 respectively distinguishing the permanent and temporary duties.—The Irish Clergy Residence bill was read a second time.—Mr. Tierney presented a petition from the debtors confined in the Marshalsea. —Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the American treaty act, and obtained leave to bring in a bill to continue, for a time to be limited, the act of the 37th of his majesty, for carrying into effect the treaty of amity, navigation, and commerce with the united states of America.—Sir Charles Bunbury presented a petition from the maltsters of the county of Suffolk; as did Mr. Mordaunt one from those of the county of Warwick, and of the county of the city of Coventry, praying relief from the restrictions imposed by the 42d of his majesty.—Mr. Rose presented a petition from the trustees of the British Museum, praying the annual parliamentary grant. Mr. Rose then moved, that there be laid before the house an account of the expenditure of the British Museum for the last year. Ordered. —The secretary at war brought up the Mutiny bill, which was read a first time.—Mr. H. Parnell was, on the motion of lord H. Petty, added to the committee for investigating the joint accounts of Great Britain and Ireland.
[IRISH CATHOLICS.] Mr. Dillon
rose for the purpose of putting a question to the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Fox), with a view to learn the future intentions of that right hon, gent. with respect to the claims of a large portion of his majesty's subjects in Ireland. In doing this, he was not actuated by any wish to embarrass his majesty's ministers, or by motives of idle curiosity. Rumours had gone abroad of a very extraordinary change of sentiments having taken place in certain quarters, on the subject of the claims of the catholics of Ireland. It was also rumoured, that the great body of the catholics had acquiesced in this change of opi-
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Mr. Secretary Fox
spoke to the following effect: Really the question of the hon. gent. is so extremely vague that I cannot pretend to answer it, for I confess that I do not distinctly understand it. The hon. gent. has talked of some rumours afloat as to an alteration of opinion respecting the catholics, among those who formerly supported them; but as I do not know to whom he alludes, I cannot give him a precise answer. But with regard to the rumour that the catholic body have acquiesced in the reported alteration respecting their claims, I should rather ask the hon. gent. himself upon that point. So far as I am concerned in this question, whenever it conies under discussion, I shall he perfectly ready to state my opinion, and all I think it necessary to say as to my future conduct is to refer to a consideration of my past. I cannot, however, hesitate to state, that if any gentleman were to ask my advice as to the propriety of bringing forward the catholic claims at present, I should recommend him to take into consideration the prospect of success, and the greater probability of succeeding this year or the next; at the same time to bear in mind the issue of last year's discussion. In the part which I took upon that occasion, I was actuated by the strongest sense of duty—but at present I do not feel myself obliged to say any thing more upon the subject.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.]Lord Ossulston
rose to make his promised motion with respect to the Debt of the East-India company. After some preliminary observations, his lordship stated, that in the year 1793, it appeared that the debt of the East-India company bearing interest, was about 7 million, which it was proposed to reduce to 2 million; that in order to do this, a power was given, by the act of 1793, to the different presidencies in India to grant bills in favour of the creditors of the company on the court of directors to the amount of 500,000
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l
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Lord Morpeth
expressed a wish that his noble friend would withdraw his motion, assuring him that it was the intention of ministers to lay before the house the fullest possible information with respect to the affairs of India. In conformity with this intention the noble lord stated, that he would, in a very few days, submit a motion for a return of all the debts of the India company, the loans contracted by the several presidencies, and the terms upon which they were made, distinguishing such loans as bore interest, from those which did not, with the terms of interest, when and where payable, &c. up to the latest period. Such an account he believed, would answer better than that moved for, the object his noble friend professed to have in view. There was an additional reason for acceding to a short delay, and it was this, that it would enable those concerned in the immediate superintendance of Indian affairs to collect more accurate information which they would be most probably enabled to do by farther arrivals.
Lord Ossulston
assented to the request of his noble friend.
Mr. Francis
not to take any part in the discussion of this subject, but merely to say, that there was one question connected with the finances of India, to which, notwithstanding his general resolution, as the house had heard, he felt himself bound, and that was the loan made by the government of Bombay to Gwicowar. Upon this loan, however, he should reserve his sentiments, until all the promised documents should be laid before the house, and until the India budget should be brought forward for discussion.
Lord Folkestone
was glad that the attention of the house had been called to the important interests of India, and thought many good effects would be likely to arise from this circumstance. He hoped that the documents promised by the noble member of the board of controul, would be speedily brought forward,and prove fully satisfactory.
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Lord Temple
referring to the notice which had been postponed by Mr. Paull, took occasion to state, that the hon. member was now called upon in candour and fairness to lord Wellesley, to state the nature of the charge, which it was his intention to bring forward on Friday, pursuant to his notice.—Mr. Paull said he should decline giving the noble lord any answer on the subject. Lord Ossulston's motion was then, with the leave of the house, withdrawn.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Paull
rose and spoke as follows;—Though irregular to allude to what passed on any former occasion in this house, still, sir, the occurrences of last night, will render it necessary for me to obtrude on the present occasion, at infinitely greater length than I had any intention of doing. The;house must have observed, that I have had two distinct objects in introducing the affairs of India to its notice. One, sir, an earnest anxiety to bring the whole system of our Indian empire once more under the consideration of parliament,. system which threatens the national prosperity; and the other to prosecute to conviction, if possible, the person to whom I impute all the dangers that now threaten our existence abroad and in this country.—For the first, I could have incurred no obloquy, might have earned some applause from the display of my knowledge, and have made few enemies; but, in the second I was fully aware of the dangers. I had a beacon in the example afforded me in the managers of Mr. Hastings's impeachment calling out to me to beware! I knew I should have to contend, a new, unconnected individual, with obstacles of the most formidable nature. I knew, sir, I should. not be able to sail with wind and tide, but:that I should have to encounter every thing that power, rank, wealth, prejudice, and talent, could throw in my way. These, though no slight obstacles, I was prepared to meet; but I have met with others that I did not reckon on; and as I hold the character and motives of an accuser as his fairest claims to confidence or reprobation, I must, sir, on the present occasion claim the attention of the house on my own account a few moments, whilst I state my motives and conduct; this task once performed, I shall proceed in the way I have imposed upon myself, undismayed by numbers; and hereafter the shafts of malice and slander shall pass by me like the idle wind that I regard not.
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Lord Temple
observed, that the narrow ground on which the hon. gent. had proceeded, had made it an easy thing to answer him; but when he had brought forward charges as they were called, against so considerable, and so meritorious a character, as that of the marquis Wellesley, he should have stated the grounds on which they were to be founded; and he should also have taken the trouble of perusing those papers, which he said, would substantiate them, before he made those charges; if he had, the noble lord said he would venture to assert, it would have convinced the hon. member of the impropriety of his conduct. That he had not taken this course, was to be lamented, on account of what was due to the house, as well as to the noble marquis; for he would venture to assert, without the least fear of contradiction, that when all the papers which had been called for should appear upon the table, and came to tell their own story, there would be found not the least pretence for charging the noble marquis with any misconduct; on the contrary he would deserve praise. He hoped, therefore, that all the papers would be granted, and that there was no formal objection to their production. and he was not aware of any. By
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Mr. Paull
said, he had quoted the treaty such as he found it in the Mahratta papers, and sent home by lord Wellesley, and could not be accused of a want of fairness in not reading what really had never been given to the house.
418
Mr. Johnstone
said, he was sorry that it had been thought worth while to advert to any thing that had passed between himself and the hon, mover; and he would have said nothing about the matter, had it not been that his silence might lead the house to imagine that he really had encouraged the hon. gent. in his proceedings in this business. In fact, he had dissuaded him from becoming a candidate for that, of which he (Mr. J.) was set down as the representative, and afterwards from following up these charges. He did not say, however, that these were fundamentally wrong, but he thought this proceeding, under all the circumstances, inexpedient. both as far as regarded the hon. gent. and himself. His own reasons for not coming forward with any such charges were, first, the impossibility which he foresaw of procuring redress for the wrongs of a prince of India (the nabob of Oude), to whom he was much attached, which attachment, perhaps, rendered him incapable of conducting the affair with impartiality; 2dly, the suspicions that might arise, that he could not judge fairly and candidly in the case of lord Wellesley; and 3dly, the treachery of which the Rajah of Bhurtpore had been guilty, almost to an unparalleled extent. He did not deny this, but he asked, where, was the wisdom or policy of making a treaty,with this very person on whom no dependence whatever could be placed? How came the ceded fortresses and the money to be returned? It was because lord Cornwallis saw the futility of such treaties, and was resolved to abandon them, if possible. He gave up their lands, he gave up their money, he would give op any thing to such persons, provided they would agree not to burthen us with their friendship.
Mr. Hiley Addington
said, that as the hon. mover, in anticipating the contents of the papers for which he moved, had made his assertions pretty sturdily, he was not sorry to hear from his noble friend (lord Temple) assertions of a contrary nature as sturdily and at least as roundly delivered. He must allow that the hon. mover had had the candour to distribute among the members of the board of controul, a number of papers respecting which he moved; but from the great mass of them, they had not had time to profit by this candour. He should, however, individually, as an humble member of the board of controul, say, that he saw no objections to granting the
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Mr. Paull
decidedly affirmed, that he had once experienced an act of justice from lord Wellesley, but never an act of favour; that in India, his situation had been such, that the smiles of lord Wellesley could not benefit him, that his frowns could be of no detriment.
Mr. Wellesley Pole
said, he did not wish to take any share in the discussion of this subject; he had only to say, that the noble marquis, and all those who were connected with him, had but one wish, and that was that the whole of his conduct should be examined as closely as possible, and the whole system of the government in India under his direction canvassed with care; for which reasons he trusted there would be no objections to granting these papers, and others which he intended to move for, provided their production would not be inconvenient to the board. Anxious as he was, however, for the production of these papers, for the purpose of preparing for a discussion which he wished to promote, he had so much regard for the regularity of the proceedings of parliament, that he should not persist in asking for them, if irregular to grant them. He was confident that the more the conduct of the noble marquis was examined, the more it would be approved; but should the house, upon enquiry, be of another opinion, of which he had not the most distant idea, neither he nor any other person would attempt to screen him; but what he asked for the noble marquis was this;. that the nature of the charge to be exhibited against him should be stated. The hon. member had this day given notice of laying ground before the house in Friday, of some fresh charge against the marquis Wellesley. The noble lord near him had asked what that charge was? to which the hon. gent. had given no answer. He begged leave to request that the hon. member would now declare what the charge was he meant to make on Friday; for if he did not state that, how could the members who took the most immediate interest in. the discussion, know what they were come to meet? He could not conceive how any difficulty could occur in giving this information. What was to be the situation of those who were most directly interested in the character of the noble marquis, it they were to come down to the house, day after day, to hear an attack, without being prepared to meet it? He trusted the house
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Mr. Paull
said, the house would do him the justice to acknowledge that on every occasion he was ready to answer any question, that was civilly put to him; that he refused to answer the noble lord (Temple), as he should always do, when his manner and mode of putting a question was rude and improper. To the relation of the noble lord (Wellesley) he was ready to say, that the next charge he should bring forward, Was for the assumption of the rights and revenues of the nabob of Surat. The question was then put, and the several papers were granted.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 12.
[MINUTES.] Lord Walsingham
presented the report of the committee appointed to search for precedents of the proceedings of the house in cases of Impeachment; which was ordered to be printed. A short conversation ensued between lords Auckland and Eldon, respecting the additional article of Impeachment against lord Melville, as to the manner in which that noble lord should be called upon to answer; which ended in an order to summon their lordships for to-morrow, in order to take the same into consideration.
[WITNESSES' LIABILITY BILL.] Lord Walsingham
reported the Declaratory bill, the amendments made in winch were agreed to.
Lord Eldon
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Earl Stanhope
objected to this proviso, which, he said, instead of declaring the law, left it to the judges of each court to decide what was law, thereby, instead of removing doubts, rendering those doubts more doubtful. He also considered the clause to be unconstitutional, in as much as it sent the judges of the courts of common law to the courts of equity to learn by what law they were to decide, a system which met his marked condemnation.
The Lord Chancellor
defended the clause to which he could not see the slightest objection. It was perfectly clear, from the opinions of the judges, that there were exceptions to the general rule, which it was necessary to provide against. With respect to courts of equity, the law of evidence was the same in those courts as in the courts of law, and therefore the objection upon this head fell to the ground, as the clause merely directed in fact that the laws of evidence should be resorted to. Although somewhat irregular in referring to a bill of the noble earl's (Stanhope) now on the table, on this subject, he was happy to concur with him in one part, where, notwithstanding his objection yesterday, he had inserted the words "the lords spiritual and temporal." The lords spiritual were the ministers of God and of religion, and it being thought fit that they should take a part in our temporal concerns, it was also fit that they should have the precedence.
Earl Stanhope
said he had inserted the words "the lords temporal and spiritual," but that the printer had altered them.
Lord Holland
notwithstanding what had been said by his noble and learned friend on the woolsack, could not agree in the propriety of referring the judges of the courts of common law to courts of equity, to learn the law of evidence. He had too much veneration for the common law of the country to sanction such a proceeding.
Lord Eldon
contended that the seven judges who had answered the questions in the affirmative having all done so with a variety of exceptions, it would be, in fact, acting contrary to that opinion if a law were passed enacting a general rule on the subject without any exception, and he had no hesitation in saying, that without some such clause as that he had proposed, the Declaratory Bill would be the greatest nuisance that ever existed; no man's pro
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Earl Stanhope
still considering his bill for the more effectual Discovery of Truth from Witnesses to be necessary, moved its second reading, observing, however, that he should move in the committee to alter the preamble, and make it a bill for the better protection of witnesses. The object of the bill, he stated, was to prevent the evidence given by witnesses from being afterwards made use of against themselves.—The bill was read a second time, and committed for Friday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 12.
[MINUTES.]
New writs were ordered for the borough of Lyme Regis, in the room of the hon. T. Fane, who had accepted the Chiltern hundreds; and also for the borough of Queenborough, in the room of G. P. Moore, esq. who had accepted the office of steward of the manor of East Hendred.—Mr. Holford brought up the report of the committee to whom the petition of the Philanthropic Society, for the education of the children of felons, was referred. In pursuance of the report, he moved for, and obtained leave to bring in, a bill for the better government and regulation of that society.—Mr. W. Dundas moved for, and obtained leave to bring in, a bill, for the further continuance of an act which was on the point of expiring, for the securing a more expeditious payment of creditors in Scotland.—The Irish Clergy Residence bill passed through the committee.—The bill for Allowing the Importation of Wool from the British colonies in America, was read a second time.—On the motion of general Tarleton, the ordnance estimates, presented by Mr. Calcraft, were ordered to be printed for the use of the members.—Mr. Paull moved for, a Copy of a Protest, dated in 1803, from the then chairman of the court of directors, against the measures pursued in Oude, and which led to the treaty of 1801, and which treaty was approved of by the secret committee, as appears from their minute of the 19th of Nov. now before the house, Ordered.
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[WOOLLEN MANUFACTURE SUSPENSION BILL.]
On the motion of lord Temple, the house went into a committee on this bill.
Mr. P. Moore
said, he would not object to suspend the operation of the existing laws respecting the woollen manufacturers, against those violations which had been hitherto made, but he must object to the continuing this suspension still farther, he considered that the violators of the law were comparatively few, and that the trespassers and intruders bore but a small proportion to the number of those engaged in the trade. In opposing them, he therefore took the side that he always wished to take, that of the many against the few. Those who proposed the bill, and the many country members who were favourable to it, he considered were rather taking the part of the few against the many. He therefore should propose a clause, "That this bill should only operate to prevent prosecutions from those violations of the existing laws which had already taken place, but should not prevent prosecutions for violations which might be committed hereafter."
Mr. H. Lascelles
said, that the reason why so many gentlemen supported the bill was, that it had become evident in the course of the trade, that the principles of many of those very old acts of parliament, would be at present inapplicable, and highly injurious to the woollen manufacture. He did not wish absolutely to decide upon the policy of those old acts, but as it was at present very doubtful, he thought it would be the best way for the house to go into a committee, when they would be able to obtain the fullest information on the subject.
Mr. Wilberforce
thought that the hon. gent. (Mr. Moore) had rather gone upon general principles, or those which carried with them a show of popularity. He had spoken of the interests of the many, as opposed to those of the few. For his part, he was convinced that the interests of commerce and of trade, were the interests both of the many and of the few. The wages of the manufacturers were raised when the trade went well. The hon. gent. however, appeared to him to be mistaken in his distinction about the many and the few, for the fact was, that there were very many who carried on manufactures in their own houses and in a domestic way, which he considered was better both for trade and for the morals of those engaged in it, than
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Mr. Brooke
hoped that no impediment would be thrown in the way of the final settlement of this business, which had been now two years before the house. His object was to promote the interests of all parties. He hoped the hon. gent. would not insist on his clause.
Lord Temple
said, that he knew the wish of his majesty's ministers upon this subject was, to relieve the manufacturers from any improper restraint. Whether the restraints imposed upon them by those old acts of parliament might be taken away or not, was a matter that could not be decided without the most serious consideration, and the best information that could be had. It was, because he was not prepared to decide, that he could not agree to the clause proposed. Such a clause would be absolutely deciding the question.
Mr. P. Moore
explained, that when he spoke of the many and the few, he considered very much that numerous class of manufacturers, whose petition he presented, and who had been waiting for years: he meant the petition of the employed against the employers. The first class were anxious for the decision of the house; the latter class, as he thought, was not so desirous of it. He hoped that the discussion, and the adoption of the clause he had proposed, would bring them to agree to reasonable terms with those in their employment.
Mr. Wilberforce
said, that, by this explanation, the suspicion he had entertained was realized; that it was for another description of men than those who were the objects of this bill, that the hon. gent. felt so warmly.—The clause was then rejected, and lord Temple gave notice, that he should on Friday next move for a committee to consider the state of the woollen manufacture.
[ELECTION TREATING BILL.] Mr.
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brought up a bill to explain and render more effectual an act, passed in the 7th of William III. for preventing charge and expense in Elections of Members to serve in Parliament. The bill was read a first time, and ordered to be printed. The right hon, gent. then said, that he should move for its being read a second time on Friday se'nnight, unless gentlemen wished for longer time to consider it.
Mr. Hurst
wished that a longer day should be named. As for himself, he approved entirely of the principles of the bill, and of almost all the observations made by the hon. member in proposing it; but as it was a bill that went to make a material change in the old established laws, and as several gentlemen might entertain doubts, which a fuller consideration might remove, he thought it would be better to allow a longer tune to consider it.
Mr. Rose
did not consider that the bill made any alteration in old established laws; he thought it would be only a declaration of what was actually the existing law.—The question was then put, and the bill was ordered to be read a second time on Friday se'nnight.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 13.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Lord
Auckland
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 13.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Stanniford
presented a petition from the maltsters of Kingston-upon-Hull, praying to be relieved from certain embarrassments under the existing malt laws.—Mr. W. Dundas presented the Scotch Creditors' bill, which was read a first time.—Mr. W. Keene moved that there be laid before the house a copy of the commission under which the commissioners for liquidating the debts of the nabob of Arcot acted. Mr. H. Addington had no objection to the production of the paper in question, but suggested the propriety of postponing the motion till Monday, when the committee moved for by his. noble friend (lord Morpeth), would have this business fully before them, and when the commission would of course be produced. Mr. Keene maintained that it was necessary that the house should be in possession of the commission before going into the committee. The motion, however, was negatived—Lord Collingwood's Annuity bill was read a 3d time and passed. —The Mutiny bill, Militia Pay bill, Militia Subalterns bill, Militia Adjutants bill, and Irish Militia Pay bill, went through committees, and were ordered to be reported to-morrow.—Mr. Vansittart brought in a bill for continuing the act of the 44th of the king, enabling his majesty to accept of the service of such part of the militia of Ireland as voluntarily offered themselves to
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[IRISH CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL.] Dr.Duigenan
moved the order of the day, for going into a committee on the Irish Clergy Residence bill; which being read accordingly,
Mr. Grattan
rose to express his hope, that the hon. and learned doctor would not now persist in pushing forward this bill through the house with so much rapidity, in the absence of gentlemen from that country, who certainly wished to be present at the discussion of a subject of so much importance to the clergy of Ireland. Some of those gentlemen had not yet arrived in London; others were arrived, but not present. Several of them had instructed him to request the learned doctor would postpone the committal of the bill, until Thursday the 8th of May, and to hope the learned doctor would have no objection.
Dr. Duigenan
hoped the hon.gent. would be so good as to give him some reason why he wished the further proceedings of the bill to be postponed to so distant a day? He had brought the bill forward at the request of the board of First Fruits in Ireland, a board composed of the lord chancellor, the three chief judges of the other courts, and many of the most respectable gentlemen of Ireland. By the union it was settled that the church of Great Britain and Ireland should thenceforth be one and the same for ever. The present bill was founded in strict conformity to that principle, and did not contain a single tittle that was not enacted by the bill which passed this house in the 43d of the king, for securing the residence of the Clergy in England; and which bill had undergone a most minute discussion in both houses of Parliament, and therefore he should be glad to hear what objections could exist to the bill now before the house.
Mr. Grattan
answered, that his first objection was, that a bill of this nature, in which not only the church but the state in Ireland might be eventually involved, should pass in the absence of those gentlemen who represent Ireland, and who must feel a material interest in the ecclesiastical establishment of that country, and who could not possibly attend in their places in that house until after the assizes. If it was desired that he should offer any further reasons, he must be obliged very reluctantly to trespass on the time of the house at greater length; but the house would have to impute that to the curiosity
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DR.Duigenan
said, that if the bill was hot debated on the 2d reading, the fault was not his; as it was now three weeks since it was introduced, by the leave of the house, and had passed through its previous stages without the slighest opposition from the hon. gent. If there was not a full attendance of Irish members in that house, it could not be owing to their absence from London; for, if he was well informed, out of the 100 who had seats, 70 were actually in town; and he very much despaired of a greater number of members arriving in London after time assizes, but rather supposed their numbers would diminish instead of increasing. The hon. gent. had been pleased to compare him to a bad taylor; but he would appeal to the house on the propriety of the comparison, as well as the elegance of the figure; that he could see no reason why the clergy of Ireland should wear their coats differently trimmed from those of England, or be exempt from similar laws, or similar restrictions, to enforce that residence to which they were sworn, and to which they were indispensibly bound by law and duty. In spite of all pretences about having no glebe houses there was not a parish in Ireland, where the clergyman could not find a convenient
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Mr. Fox
agreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Grattan), in the necessity of postponing further proceedings on this bill, not only until a full attendance of the gentlemen of Ireland should be present, but until those gentlemen, who were to represent the Irish government in that house, should be in their places, and be able to give their opinions, touching the necessity of a measure which he should conceive to be amongst the first objects of their enquiry, upon examining into the state of that country. At the same time, he was willing to allow, that what had fallen from the hon. and learned gent. had certainly some weight. But yet he could not see the great inconvenience that would arise from passing the bill in May, if it was fit to pass it at all, instead of passing it now. The measure surely would not be the worse for more mature deliberation and fair discussion; and from the time of the year at which this house had been accustomed to break up for the season of late years, he could see no danger of the bill being lost by the delay proposed by his hon. friend, unless the hon. and learned gent. was apprehensive that the bill was such an one that it could not pass at all, if it were to be deliberately considered.
Dr. Duigenan
persisting in his motion, the gallery was cleared for a division, but the house, after some further discussion, did not divide ; and it was agreed to postpone the committal until the 21st of April.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 14.
[MINUTES.]
The bishop of Ossory took the oaths and his seat.—Lord Collingwood's Annuity bill was read a 2d time.—Mr. Alexander brought up the Irish Sugar Drawback bill, the Woollen Manufacturers Penalty Suspension bill, and the British Sugar Drawback bill, which were severally read a first time.—The Corn Exportation bill, the Irish Duties bill, the Foreign Troops bill, the Royal Marine Mutiny bill, and
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 14.
[MINUTES.]
Lord Stanley presented a petition from the Maltsters, &c. of the Borough of Preston, praying relief from certain restrictions imposed by the act of the 42d of the king.—Mr. Alcock from the Treasury presented an account, showing how the monies voted for the service of the year 1805 had been disposed of, under their several heads, so far as relates to Great Britain.—A person from the British Museum presented an account of the Expenditure of that institution, for the year 1805, and estimates for the year 1806.—Mr. Calcraft brought up certain Ordnance papers, containing an account of the effective strength of the Artillery and Drivers; and also an account of the effective strength of the corps of Engineers, from 1801 to 1806 inclusive.—On the motion of Mr. W. Dundas, the Scotch Creditors' bill was read a 2d time.—On the motion. of Mr. Vansittart the Sugar Drawback and the Irish Sugar Drawback bills were read a third time and passed.—Mr. Rose moved for an account of the amount of all exports from Great Britain to the island of Tortola, for the last 7 years, distinguishing British from foreign goods; also an account of the quantity of sugar, rum, and coffee, exported from the Island of Tortola to our foreign settlements; and copies of all orders of his majesty in council relative to the execution of the act of the 42d and 43d of his majesty.—Ordered.
[WOOLLEN MANUFACTURE COMMITTEE.]
Lord
Temple,
Henry Petty,
433
Mr. H. Lascelles
stated that the evil alluded to by the noble lord, and which it was the object of the proposed committee to correct, did not originate in the suspension law; but that, on the contrary, this law was rendered necessary by the penalties given by certain obsolete statutes, and was calculated to restrain the operation of this evil. The fact was, that a number of statutes existed which were quite inapplicable to the present state of the Woollen Manufacture. Yet upon those obsolete statutes several prosecutions had been commenced; and to guard against the effects of such prosecutions the suspension law was introduced. Such was the object of this law, and it had answered the end in view. But still he felt that it could serve only as a temporary expedient, until, as in this instance, it was determined fully to investigate the subject, and to decide what laws should continue in force, or whether any new laws should be enacted with regard to the state of the Woollen Manufacture.
Lord H. Petty
replied, that he had certainly expressed himself very ill, if his words conveyed the idea, that he considered the existing discontents as originating from the suspension acts. He had only said, that these were temporary expedients, which had not lessened the irritation, and that something farther was necessary to be done.—A committee was then appointed to whom the various petitions from the Woollen Manufacturers were referred, and who were empowered to report from time to time, their observations on the whole subject.
434
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Alderman Prinsep
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for the production of a document of the highest national importance in his estimation, with a view to put government and the house in possession of a most material fact with regard to the commerce of India. To enable his majesty's ministers to take prospective measures upon the subject of India, it appeared to him essentially necessary that they should be made acquainted with the proportion of the commerce of that territory, of which neutrals had contrived to possess themselves. That proportion truck his mind, and he believed, when known, it would equally strike that of any thinking man in the country, to be most extraordinary and unfair, when compared to that enjoyed by the subjects of this country commonly denominated private traders, nay, even by the India company themselves. Upon considering this comparison, it would be seen what return was made to Great Britain for the price she has paid for the purchase of our Indian territory; for the expence incurred in maintaining it; and for the anxiety generally existing with respect to its concerns. The fact was, the British share of Indian commerce was a very inadequate recompence for the quantity of population and wealth which Great Britain was annually in the habit of expending for the support of our dominion in India; for the constant drain upon every class of our population, to administer the various branches of civil and military government of those territories; for the original and subsequent contributions of capital for the company's trade, and for the diversion of so great a portion of our naval strength in the external protection of India against the natural enemy of our commerce and power. Foreigners enjoyed a share of this trade, which, compared with our own, the company's and private traders included, bore a proportion of not less, he was certain, than three to one. By this statement he would not be understood as wishing to excite any complaints on the part of the private traders; and still farther was it from his view to attach any blame to the India company, for the toleration of neutral commerce. The fault was not theirs; for, several of the neutral powers had possessions in India, before we ourselves obtained any footing in that quarter. By treaty some of them enjoyed the right of traffic with our territory; and some possessed territories of their own.
435
436
ad valorem,
Mr. Francis.
I presume, sir, it is hardly necessary to second such a motion as the present. A return of the value of exports and imports of tonnage, shipping, and cargoes, is a mere custom-house document, a thing of course, perpetually moved for in this house, even without notice, and never refused or disputed. I rise now, sir, for another purpose. The facts, stated by the
437
*
*
438
439
bonâ fide
Mr. Charles Grant
rose, and said: I do not rise, sir, to advance either of the objections the hon. gent. (Mr. Prinsep) anticipated, to the production of the papers he has called for, nor, indeed, to object at all to his motion, because my opposit on to it might be misunderstood; but I wish to submit some general observations on the subject on which these papers a intended to bear. That subject is a very large one, namely, the extent to which the
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441
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Mr. Francis
Sir, on one topic only I beg leave to explain myself. I am not at all satisfied with the explanation given by the hon. director, in respect to the specie,. which, if it existed, ought to circulate generally through the provinces. He admits that there is little circulation of specie in our principal settlements. But he affirms "that a great proportion of the imported bullion, being coined into rupees, no doubt, circulates in the interior of our own possessions." This solution of the difficulty seems to me full as extraordinary as the difficulty itself. If any great financier was to inform this house that; although there was not a guinea or a shilling to be seen in London or its neighbourhood, there was a plentiful circulation of both in Scotland, in Yorkshire, and in every part of the kingdom, at the distance of 50 or Go miles from the capital, what would you think of his veracity or his intellects? Is it physi-
443
Mr. Brogden
supported the motion, as he thought the whole of this important question should be fully examined. He had himself, last session, proposed to bring forward a motion the same, if not in form at least in substance, with that then under consideration, but had abandoned the idea, as he was not certain of support to give effect to his proposition.
Mr. Atkins
supported the motion, and suggested the propriety of producing an account of the total value of exports from, and imports into the East Indies, distinguishing the share of each nation engaged in the trade.
Mr. Secretary Fox
had some doubts on the subject of this motion. The hon. director had said, that the production of this paper would not be sufficient to enable the house to form a complete judgment on the whole case, without the production of other documents. If this paper would lead only to an imperfect or premature opinion, he should certainly feel strong doubts of the propriety of granting it. Had the hon. director stated an intention to move for other papers, in order to bring the matter fully and impartially before the house, he for his part could see no reasonable ground of objection to its production; but as the case stood then, he did not think it right to grant any paper that would have the effect of leaving an imperfect impression on the minds of those who should consult it. Such it appeared was the opinion of the directors, and he could not help thinking, that that house and the country was fully willing to give to the judgment of that hon. board all the confidence to which it was entitled. But independently of their opinion, the, hon. mover himself had not stated any
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Mr. Prinsep
stated his only object to be to bring an important fact before the house, out of which a very serious question would naturally arise, namely, whether the subjects of this country had such a share of the profits of the commerce of India, as was sufficient to atone to them for the incumbrance to which they submitted for the maintenance of that territory; and whether, if the same system was pursued, the territory would be worth holding? The hon. chairman had stated his opinion to be, that this country could never successfully contend with foreigners in the carrying trade; if so, it followed, that neutrals, with such free access to India as they now possessed, must inevitably carry off all that trade, except the slender portion which the imperial commerce of the company enabled them to support: He happily entertained a more cheering confidence: experience had taught him, that raw materials, produce of various kinds, and coarser commodities than the assortments in which the company traded,—though more bulky and therefore more beneficial to the support of our carrying trade,—that those very articles in which foreigners now dealt almost exclusively, might be brought home by
445
Lord Henry Petty
said, it was always tin wish of his majesty's ministers to give every species of information which could lead to any distinct object or practical conclusion. It would, however, evidently appear improper, that there should be any discussion in that house, upon points of so much delicacy, and which were now the objects of important discussions elsewhere. But as there could not, with propriety, be any discussion in that house, upon those points, he thought it would be the best way of getting rid of the motion by proceeding to the other orders of the day. He, therefore, without any disrespect to the hon. alderman, thought it his duty to move that the other orders of the day be now read.
Lord Castlereagh
was of opinion, that a commercial question of such magnitude and importance to the interests of India, and of this country, should not be brought before the house on any partial statement. If the question were to be examined by the house, it should be on much more general grounds. The principal reason, however, which made him concur with the noble lord who had moved the order of the day was, that he must most seriously deprecate any discussions in this house, which might at all influence, or prejudice, the discussion upon those points which were now the
446
[MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS.] Mr. Windham
rose to give notice of his intention to move on Monday for leave to bring in a bill, for regulating the trade and commerce with the Cape of Good Hope. The right hon. gent. said, he would take this opportunity of stating, that he hoped in the course of the next week, to be able to fix a day for bringing forward the subject for which the hon. gentlemen were so impatient, and about which the country at large was naturally very anxious. He supposed that on Monday se'nnight he should be able to submit to the house the measures which his majesty's ministers meant to propose for the Defence of the Country; but this he did not mean to have now entered on the journals as a formal notice.
Mr. Canning
wished to know whether the. repeal of the Additional Force bill was to be among the measures to be proposed?— No answer was, however, given to this question.
[ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.]
The house
447
Mr. Calcraft,
in proceeding to move the Ordnance Estimates for the year, expressed a hope, that in future years considerable deductions might be made from the amount of the present expence of this department. The estimates of this year for Great Britain were less by 300,000l. than those of the last year; but a large and necessary establishment for Ireland increased the expence in that country, so as to counteract this reduction in a considerable degree. There was, however, still on the general account a diminution of 180,000l. He moved," that a sum of 2,957,181l. 6
s.
d.
Mr. Wellesley Pole,
on examining the estimates now moved, found them precisely the same with those prepared by the late board of ordnance. There was merely a difference in a few items, the totals of Which were not made up when the late board was in office, making the whole amount of the estimates about 7000l. more than the late board had made it. He thought it right to state, that these estimates were the estimates of the late board, adopted by the present, and hence he inferred, that the present board had not only found the estimates correct, but the general system of the late board wise and good. The reduction of 300,000l. on the British establishment was made by the late board. The increased preparations in Ireland, which the hon. gent. had acknowledged as just and necessary, were also adopted by the late board. The merits of the prospect of further reduction held forth by the hon. gent. were also due to lord Chatham's administration, whose attention and ability, with all the regard to economy which the actual and proposed reductions announced, had placed the country in a state of defence in which it never had been before; and of which the present board, with that good management he was disposed to give them credit for, could not fail to make use of for the public honour and advantage. He was sure the hon. gent., in omitting to do this justice to lord Chatham's administration, had been actuated by no wish to suppress the merit of that noble lord and his board, but that he merely felt it unnecessary to go at large into the subject.
Mr. Calcraft
said, that he certainly has no wish to disguise the merit of the late
448
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
[EXCHEQUER BILLS.] Mr. Vansittart
said, he meant to propose a resolution for liquidating the exchequer bills, the accounts of which had been referred to the committee. There was a sum of 8 million consisting of an issue of 5 million, and an issue of 3 million in the year 1804. There was another sum of 2½million issued in 1804, and replaced by a fresh issue last year. It was now proposed to pay these bills off, but whether by fresh exchequer bills, or by other means, he was not prepared to say, till the Ways and Means should be considered; though he believed
449
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 17.
[MINUTES.] The marquis of Blandford
was introduced, agreeably to his new creation of baron Wormleighton, with the usual formalities, sworn, and took his seat. His lordship's supporters were, the earl of Galloway and lord Grenville.—The Marine Mutiny, the Irish Malt Duty Regulation, the Greenland Ships Quota, and the Corn Exportation bills, were severally read a 3d time and passed.
[WOOLLEN MANUFACTURE SUSPENSION BILL.] Earl Spencer
moved the second reading of the Woollen Manufacturers' bill. The noble secretary of state prefaced his motion by adverting to the importance of the subject of which the measure now proposed made a part; the necessity that existed for the bill's passing into a law, as the existing suspension bill would shortly expire; it was that alone which induced the bringing forward the present bill, which went to continue the suspension bill for a year longer. In the interval, the general subject, he hoped would, the proceedings being already in train in another house,
450
Lord Auckland
said a few words generally in support of what had fallen from the noble secretary of state; and, in addition, adverted to some proceedings which had taken place upon the subject, in the committee of the privy council, appointed for the consideration of such topics.
Lord Grenville
followed on the same side. He seemed adverse to the principle of bills of the kind, but in the interval of the general subject of the woollen manufacture being thoroughly investigated, and a general law framed for remedying the evil complained of, a measure of the kind, merely to avert a greater evil, was deemed necessary; and nothing but the peculiar circumstances of the case, could induce him to support the bill.—The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be printed.
Earl Stanhope rose,
and observed, that an opinion had been suggested to him, and in which he most cordially agreed, that the best way would be to refer the bill in question to the consideration of the judges, with instructions to frame it, or to draw up another bill, so as to answer its purpose. He had been told, on a former night, that his bill was in a crude state; now, that was what he should like to debate, either in a committee, or out of a committee; on that head, however, he thought he had gained a victory over a noble and learned lord then absent. On the whole, he thought it was best to submit the present bill to the judges, as a more important subject than that to which it referred, could not exist; it was the more necessary, because their lordships had, to a bill very properly introduced by his noble friend on the woolsack, tacked certain provisions, suggested by another noble and learned lord, which, instead of improving the bill, only rendered it obscure and unintelligible, and which in the pending stage of the bill, ought to be rejected, in order to reduce it to its original clearness. In the view, and for
451
Lord Ellenborough
observed, that he assented to the proposed adjournment of the consideration of the bill, with the hope that the bill, as presented by the noble earl, whether a crude bill or not, would, in that interval, receive that due and mature consideration, which one of its import evidently required. As the bill now stood, he was one of those who thought, that were such a law enacted, it would tend to let out truth in one instance, and close the door on it afterwards; it would, therefore, be productive of great mischief. He hoped the noble earl, in the interval proposed, would better consider the subject, and present it in quite another form; and, farther, that when it should come to be considered, the point whether the lords spiritual or temporal should have the priority in the bill, would form no part of the discussion.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 17.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of Mr. Manning, the London Wet Dock bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed.—Sir Stephen Cottrell, one of the clerks of the privy council, presented to the house two books, containing "a Copy of the return or returns, made to the privy council by every archbishop and bishop, of the names of every dignity, prebend, benefice, donative, perpetual curacy, and parochial chapelry, within their respective dioceses, or subject to their respective jurisdictions, and the names of the several persons possessing the same who shall not have resided thereon by reason of any exemption under or by virtue of the act of 43 Geo. III c. 84; and also of all the persons possessing the same, not having any such exemption or licence, who shall not have resided on such dignity, prebend, benefice, donative, perpetual curacy, or parochial chapelry, so far as the bishop is informed thereof." Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Irving, the inspector-general of the imports and exports, presented the accounts of the exports to the island of Tortola, and the orders of council relative thereto, which were moved for by Mr. Rose. Ordered to be printed.—On the motion of lord Henry Petty, a new writ was ordered for Jedburgh, in the room of John Dalrymple, esq. who, since his election had accepted the office of steward of his
452
Mr. Whitshed Keene rose
to offer a few observations. He lamented, that the measure proposed to be adopted, in 1798, for the English militia to volunteer their services in Ireland, and the Irish in England, had not been carried into effect. It had been so, indeed, in a partial degree, by some English regiments of militia, but not at all by the Irish, which he was very sorry for; as the Irish militia, by coming here, would see how much was done by industry, and would receive a good impression of its advantageous consequences. In time north of Ireland, he said, the people were naturally industrious; and, from being so, had acquired property, and he believed them thereby strongly attached to the limited monarchy of this country, and not liable to be led away by any splendid promises, that might he held out to them by the inveterate foe of the united kingdoms, and his satellites, in case an invasion should take place. In the southern and western parts of Ireland, it was, however, different; there the people were poor and ignorant, and, in general, without property. Such people were apt to be led astray by idle stories, and promises of having land given them for their services, and might be induced to join an invading enemy. They would, therefore, be better in England, where they would be of real service, in a military capacity; and the militia of England would be a certain security for the defence of Ireland. The legislative measure of union had taken place; a measure which he voted for, and hoped would, in the end, be productive of the happiest effects; but it was impossible an act of parliament
453
[COMMISSION OF NAVAL REVISION.]
Mr. Whitbread,
in pursuance of the notice which he had given, rose to submit to the house his motion on this subject. He said, that it must have been observed by the house, that in the ordinary estimates of the navy which had been laid on the table of the house by the member of the late administration, whose department it was to do so then, was an item of 20,000
l
454
l
l
l
l
Lord Castlerleagh
had no objection whatever to the production of this account
455
l
Mr. Whitbread,
in explanation, observed, that it it was the practice when a commission was appointed by the crown, to make as early application to parliament as possible for a remuneration, then the late ministers had been culpably tardy on the subject.
Mr. Bastard
approved of what had been advanced by the hon. gent. and thought that the country was highly indebted to the commissioners of naval enquiry appointed by the house, and that it was but fair to shew that they practised the same economy which they recommended in their reports.
Mr. Wilberforce
did not see the fairness of comparing the simple expences of the commissioners of naval enquiry, unconnected with any remuneration, with the amount of the expences of the civil commissioners, united with their remuneration. He had understood from the noble person who was at the head of that commission, that it was his intention to relinquish his salary.
Mr. Whitbread
declared, that he had no wish to make the comparison just stated. If what the hon. gent. had said was the fact, as to the relinquishment of salary intended to be made by the head of the civil commission, that would add 3000
l
Mr. Bastard
afterwards moved for, "an account of the expences incurred by the commissioners of naval enquiry in each year since the establishment of that board, specifying the items by which the same
456
[ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.] Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of the committee of supply, containing the resolutions respecting the Ordnance Estimates. On the motion that these be read a second time,
General Tarleton
took this opportunity of making some observations, which he felt it his duty to submit to the house. He was very anxious to know the fate of what had been so much ridiculed under the title of the Parish bill, a bill which was nevertheless become highly productive, having furnished in the last week 353 men. It was likewise important to ascertain the determination of government with regard to that very meritorious, very useful, and very respectable body, the Volunteers, who had been treated by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) when he was on the opposition bench, with such derision. He had been a military man thirty years, a great part of which had been spent in active duty; perhaps more would have been so, had it not been for his violent attachment to some gentlemen whom he then saw on the treasury bench. He could assure the right hon. gent. that their ideas of war materially differed. He was not for setting to with all the formality of boxers, but of using every stratagem and every means within reach. It was now near the end of March, and our military preparations were standing still. Another right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) had borrowed a naval cloak front a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Canning), but he had not found it warm enough to bring him down to the house, to move for the repeal of which he had given notice at an early period of the session. He remembered that right hon. gent.'s having compared a late administration (the one which preceded the last) to a team composed of black horses and bay, drawing different ways, by whom he predicted that the state coach would he highly endangered. He should like to know what he could say of the present government, in which there were horses of all colours and all descriptions, black, white, dun, and dapple, some pulling in one direction, some plunging in another, some kicking, others prancing; no accord, no union, nothing that could promise advantage to the country. With regard to the Ordnance Estimates before the house, they were those which had been formed by the late administration, unaltered and unimproved. He meant by this no imputation on the pre
457
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Mr. Calcraft
said, that instead of the question before the house, and the only regular one in discussion, the speech of the hon. general embraced such a variety of topics as rendered it extremely difficult to discover what was his principal object. He should not, however, follow him over a field so desultory and irrelevant, but confine himself to the subject of the Ordnance Estimates; with the merit or demerit of which, those who had now the direction of that branch of the public service certainly had little or nothing to do; nor could they have the most distant wish of assuming to themselves any share of the praise or dispraise to which it might be entitled, or to conceal from the house what every clerk in the offices belonging to that department must know; namely, that those estimates were formed by their predecessors in office. They found them ready formed, and under existing circumstances, deemed it eligible to adopt them; and so far from depreciating their merits, he was ready to defend their adoption, against any censure which might be thrown on them. The noble lord now at the head of that department had found, that great expenditures laid already been devoted to the establishment of old works and systems of defence begun, which he deemed it much more eligible to complete and carry into effect, than to attempt the erection or establishment of new. With regard to those designs that had been only planned, but of which the execution had not been begun by the former administration, he admitted that some of them had also been included in the estimates now on the table; but the board did not therefore pledge themselves to abide by those plans. They might adopt them with exceptions, or reject some of them entirely, as should appear most proper on farther deliberation, or from the occurrence of new circumstances. In this case the money that had been destined for those services might be returned or voted to some other purpose. The only alteration in the present estimate, from that which was formed by the late board of ordnance, was an article against which the sum of 12,000
l
l
459
General Tarleton
said he did not mean to blame the present board, for adopting the estimates left them by the former. It had been his intention only to inculcate the necessity of establishing inland depots, for the security and accommodation of the country in case of invasion. The arsenal at Wedenbeck, he represented as very defective state, not a single cannon having been provided for the security of these places.
Lord Castlereagh
said, he rose from no intention to oppose the estimates now before the house, as they were the same that had been framed by his hon. friends formerly in office. He was anxious to know, however, if the present administration had it in contemplation to follow up that system of coast defence upon the Eastern coast, which had been so strongly recommended by his late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), and which it was his intention to have completed. He felt it necessary to mention this, as although it did not form an article in the estimates of ordnance framed by the late administration, and now - brought forward by the hon. gent. yet it was fully in their contemplation as an essential part of the defensive system, and would certainly have been proposed, had his right hon. friend, on his return from Bath, been able to attend in his place in that house; for, in his opinion, there was no object more essential; because in presenting a strong defence on that point, should the enemy approach our coast, seeing the impracticability of making any impression in that quarter, their efforts would be thrown upon the flanks, in consequence
460
461
462
Mr. Secretary Windham
said, that a right hon. gent. opposite him (Mr. Canning) had, on a former occasion, expressed an opinion that the new ministers ought to have been ready with their plan, in the space of three days after coming into office; but he surely ought to have considered, and the noble lord in a particular should have repressed his impatience, by reflecting that the dilemma to which they were reduced, and which wanted so much explanation, arose from difficulties which the noble lord himself and his friends had created. Their military system had been so bad, that it naturally produced those difficulties. The strong expectation expressed on the other side of the house, of something new, was a proof, even in their opinion, that something more effectual was absolutely required to be done. The noble lord had very properly compared the present military system to a sick patient. But who had reduced the wretched patient to that languishing state? How came the patient to be in his present situation? Was it not the noble lord, and his friends who had brought him to death's door? And yet, those who had brought the country to that state, were now loud their reproaches against their successors, for hot restoring the patient instantly to health. Then noble lord wished to know, what was to be done? On this head it was very difficult to satisfy his enquiry. The whole of what had been urged on the other side came to this; the gentlemen felt that they had brought the country into difficulties, and expressed their surprise that ministers should be so long in extricating it from them. As to the admonition of the noble lord, with respect to the other topics upon which he had touched, he had only to say, that the attention of his majesty's ministers would be seriously directed towards them. To the other points on which the noble lord asked information, he had no answer to make; not that he was unprepared to give the answer, but because he did not conceive that the noble lord had any right to put the questions. He had nothing to add, therefore, to what he had said before on the subject; namely, that the question as under the consideration of govern-
463
Mr. Canning
thought the right hon. gent. might have given some answer to the question of his noble friend, relative to the course intended to be pursued with regard to the penalties. As the right hon. gent. had alluded to what had fallen from him in a former debate, he should briefly advert to his speech on that occasion. He had never said, that the right hon. gent. had made any declaration, that in three days, he would produce a plan to meet the necessity of the times. The declaration he alluded to was made before there was any prospect of an immediate change, on the first day of the session, when the right hon. gent. had observed, on a wish being expressed for some delay of the public business under the circumstances of the moment, that five days delay was the longest the military system would admit of. This declaration had been made under circumstances of a peculiar nature; and with what feelings, he left the house to determine. The right hon. gent. had wholly mistated the argument of his noble friend. He assumed, that it was admitted on their side of the house, that some remedy was necessary. But in their observations they did not compare the right hon. gent.'s measure with their own, but with his promises; not with the system hitherto acted upon, but with that which he had held forth: They compared what he was to do, with what he had promised he could and would do. A long delay had taken place since the accession of the right hon. gent. to power, and yet he did not think himself called upon to make any previous declaration to the house and the country, of the measures he proposed to adopt. But no person, who had attended to the discussions in that house for the last four years, would think the application for information on such topics very new. It was particularly to be expected from an administration, combining, as had been asserted, and as they themselves represented, and what he was not disposed to deny, all the talents, all the abilities, arid all the experience and wisdom of the country, that they should be ready to bring forward their measures without much delay. The right hon. gent. had proposed many systems, and advanced many theories for the public service before he was in office, and yet he had been so long in administration without either having made up in his mind, or been
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465
Mr. Windham
utterly denied the declarations that had been imputed to him. He had inveighed against the measure of the parish bill, without pledging himself to bring forward any specific measure in its place. That he had agreed during the nine years of his former administration with his colleagues in office in nothing but the war, he utterly denied having said. The war had been the basis on which he had gone into power, and was what he had regarded as the bond of union with that administration. Whether that conduct was right or not, it was not now a proper time to discuss.
Mr. Whitbread
said, he gave credit to the right hon. gent. who had just sat down, for that open and manly enmity which he had so early and pointedly marked to the present administration: he admitted also the kindness of the noble lord who professed, in a manner which one would be inclined to consider as rather a little insidious, that it was not his wish to press the right hon. secretary to premature explanations upon the plans in contemplation. Indeed he had said, that it would be highly imprudent for the right hon. gent. to disclose any part of those plans, and yet the whole of his speech was composed of questions purposely directed to extort that disclosure. The anxiety of the noble lord seemed particularly manifested by his curiosity to know what was to be done with the Additional Force bill, and by his extreme solicitude, lest the same penalties and embarrassing exactions, to which one part of the country had been subjected, should not be extended to all the rest? He begged it, however, to be recollected, that the omission of raising men in those parishes, was not owing to neglect, but to impossibility; and that by much the greater number of them were unable to pay the fines they had thereby incurred. Rigorously to exact those fines would be a curious expedient, to prevent vexation in one part of the country, and of jealousy in another. The right hon. gent. who spoke last, was uneasy lest the Volunteers should take alarm at present suspence, as to what measures
466
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that at another time, he might be inclined to go more at large into the general topics that had been introduced into this discussion, but in the present instance he meant only to observe shortly upon some points that had been touched upon by the right hon. gent. opposite, (Mr. Canning). That right hon. gent. had stated, that the present administration comprised all the talents in the country; and he had even stated it in such a manner as might lead to a supposition that they had so represented themselves. He should be happy that the right hon. gent. would state on what occasion he had heard them so represent themselves. It was impossible that they could have said
467
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469
Mr. Canning,
in reply to the appeal made to his candour, acknowledged, that it the Additional Force act had been repealed before the new system was proposed, he should not only have arraigned it as an impatience to obtain a triumph, but also have contrasted it with the conduct of his right hon. departed friend, who did not repeal the act of his predecessors, until he had a substitute ready to replace it. For some years, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had been saying, that a proper system of defence might be formed by any other than drivellers, by getting rid of the existing incumbrances; but now it appeared, that he did not find the task so easy as he was in the habit of representing it to be.
Mr. Perceval
thought that the different topics which had been discussed this night, would come more properly before the house on a future occasion. He thought, however, that it was hardly correct in the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) to say, that it was impossible the question could have been put from a good motive, more particularly as his noble friend did not press his question concerning the plan which the right hon. secretary (Mr. Windham) had in contemplation, but limited it as to the penalties. This he thought was a reasonable and proper question, as, while it was suffered to remain in suspence whether they were to be levied or not, it acted with a double disadvantage. With regard to the expectation that had been said to exist on this side of the house, he denied it to be peculiar to this side, and thought it not unreasonable, considering the pledges that had been held out. The right hon. gent. had been in the habit of considering what had been done on this subject as mere drivelling, and representing it as necessary only to clear away the rubbish. It was not wonderful then that some disappointment should be felt when he was so backward with his plans. For his own part however, he had met with no disappointment. He never thought the right hon. gent's plans would be realized. He never believed that better plans could be got than those now existing.
Mr. Fox
explained, that he ascribed no bad motives to any one, and had only said that he could see no good one for those enquiries,
470
Dr. Laurence
agreed with the hon. gent. who had just sat down, that this was not the time to enter into a discussion on the subject. He however thought the conduct of the gentlemen on the other side was so extraordinary, that he could not refrain from adverting to a few particulars. They had required his right hon. friend to make a statement of certain parts of his plan, when he had already declared, that the plan he intended to propose, was not entirely arranged. It seemed as if their object was to induce him to make declarations, which hereafter might be stated as a curb on his actions. But what man would be so absurd as to make declarations, when they were so likely to be mistated? when, in the debate of that very night, such misrepresentations had been made of former declarations? In fact, they could not be depended on; and he thought his right hon. friend had acted wisely in avoiding them entirely.—The Resolutions were then read and agreed to.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Paull
moved that an order of the house, of the 27th of Jan. last, for the production of certain papers relative to the management of Affairs in India, be read; which being done, the hon. member stated, that upwards of 9 months ago, he had moved for certain papers, which he intended to make the foundation of charges against the marquis Wellesley; on the 27th of Jan. last, he had moved for other papers of a similar nature; and on the 1st Feb. an hon. member (Mr. Wallace) had moved for certain other papers, with a view of vindicating the noble marquis from the charges which he (Mr. Paull) intended to bring against him. Without imputing it as any blame to the present ministers, he had to state it as a matter of complaint, that though the papers which he had moved for had been ordered so long previous to the others, yet that those papers which formed the noble marquis's defence, were in the bands of the members of the house, while those which he had moved for, and which formed the ground of charge against the noble marquis were, in a great measure, not yet on the table of time house. He therefore moved, "that returns of the papers contained in the order of the 27th Jan. be made forthwith."
Mr. Wallace
said, he had repeatedly stated to the hon. gent. the reason why these papers had not been before produced. At the time the changes in administration were likely to take place, and that, of course,
471
Mr. Fox
thought, that if the papers for the defence were produced, and the others kept back, the matter should be explained.
Mr. Hiley Addington
said, that the papers with respect to Oude, were so voluminous, amounting to 5 or 6 folio volumes, that though they were left ready by the former Board of Controul, yet a considerable time was necessarily consumed by the present board in examining into them, to ascertain whether they could with propriety be laid before the house.
Lord Castlereagh
said, that towards the close of the last session, when these papers were moved for, there was no backwardness, on the part of the board, to bring them forward; but they were so voluminous, that it was impossible it could be done in the course of that session. When, at the commencement of this session, affairs took a different turn, he was not ashamed to say, that, in consequence of the changes which were about to take place in the administration, be, and those who then acted with him, left it to their successors to examine into these papers, and consider of the propriety of granting them or not.
Mr. Creevey
said, the papers would be made out as soon as they possibly could.
Mr. Kerr
reprobated the idea of gentlemen moving for papers of such magnitude, which were useless, inasmuch as few gentlemen read them. He reprobated the practice of publishing papers relative to the affairs of India, under pretence of criminating the marquis Wellesley, as it disclosed to the enemy much information which might hereafter prove mischievous to our India possessions.—The question was then put, and the return ordered to be made forthwith.
Mr. Paull
then rose and said:—Sir; I shall trespass very shortly on the patience of the house, and I shall abstain, as much as possible, from any mention of the noble marquis, who is the object of my accusation: but,
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473
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475
Lord Temple,
while he protested against such voluminous productions without any specific reason being assigned, declared, that on the part of his noble friend the marquis Wellesley, he courted the enquiry. In the present instance, the papers were moved for, merely for the purpose of fishing out a charge against his noble friend. He was, however, anxious that the papers should be brought forward, and that the marquis Wellesley's conduct should be investigated; indeed, he conceived, that it would now be doing no more than justice to that noble lord. With regard to Surat, he would state how that place was particularly circumstanced. Previous to 1753, the nabobship of Surat had been, for many years, in the possession of one family. In 1759, a treaty was made with the then nabob, by which the castle and fleet of Surat were put into the possession of the English; and in 1800, the marquis Wellesley entered into a treaty with the nabob, by which the latter was allowed greater privileges, and a greater extent of territory, than he had had for a considerable time before, together with a yearly stipend of a lac of rupees. The conduct of the marquis with respect to Surat would be found irreproachable.—His lordship then read as part of his speech, a reso-
476
Mr. Hiley Addington
observed, that when it was said by him or his noble friend, that they did not mean to oppose the production of the papers, it was not to be understood that they meant more than such papers as were proper to be laid before the house. He then adverted to the transactions concerning Surat, and concluded by informing the house, that when these papers were produced, it would be necessary to bring forward a great many more, the printing of which would take up much time.
Lord Folkestone
thought there was sufficient ground laid for the motion. It0 appeared from the statement of the noble lord, that the noble marquis had given something to this prince. If he had done so gratuitously, what right had he to assume such a power to himself? If lie gave this to the prince of Surat, he must have taken it from some person else.
Sir Theophilus Metcalfe rose,
and said:— As the noble lord and my right hon. friend have correctly stated the relative situation between the company and the nabob of Surat, it will not be necessary to go over the same ground: I will therefore confine myself to pointing out how far the subject of the hon. gent's charge against the noble marquis is connected with Guickwar. And here it may be necessary to state, for the information of those gentlemen who have neither time nor inclination to look into Indian subjects, that the Guickwar is one of the Mahratta chiefs who hold a part of Guzzerat as a tributary to the Peishwa. In 1780, general Goddard, who commanded a Bengal detachment on the western side of India, conquered a part of Guzzerat; and placed Futty Sing, the head of the Guickwar family, in possession of the country, declaring him independent of the Poonah Durbar. Mr. Anderson was sent, in 1781, to conclude a peace with the Maharattas, and experienced some difficulty with the Madajee Scindia, about the proposed independency of Futty Sing; but it was at last settled, and the country ceded to him by gen. Goddard was guaranteed by the 8th article of the treaty of Sulbey, subject only to the peishcush, or
477
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479
Mr. Hiley Addington
stated in explanation, that a considerable portion of the contents of the papers, if the motion should be carried, ought to be withheld, and suggested the propriety of giving the board of controul a discretionary power to that effect.
Dr. Laurence
said, he felt disposed to give every credit to marquis Wellesley for the energy with which he had conducted his Indian administration; but he could not help feeling also, and the impression was augmented by the grounds upon which the production of papers was opposed, that there was such a presumption of delinquency made out, as would justify him in voting for the motion.
Mr. Secretary Fox
thought himself called on to notice in a few words what had fallen from the noble baronet. If the hon. baronet meant that he had come into office without any improper desire to serve either one or other party, he was correct. If he were called on to state, taking the system pursued by the two noble marquisses, Wellesley and Cornwallis, as general principles, which of the two he liked best? he should say, the latter, as being most agreeable to the principles laid down by this house, and
480
Paull
Mr. Huddlestone,
after what had fallen from an hon. baronet in the course of this debate, thought it proper to state, that the court of directors of the East-India company had no objection to the production of any papers that might be thought necessary to an enquiry into the late proceedings in India, and that they did not apprehend any ill consequences from the publication of the papers moved for. He was induced to say this, lest it should be supposed, that what had been so strongly expressed by the hon. baronet, respecting marquis Wellesley, were the sentiments of the directors, with respect to the administration of that nobleman.
Sir T. Metcalfe
said, he had not been delivering his opinion in the house as a director of the East-India company, but exercising his judgment as a private member of parliament.
Mr. Robert Thornton
said, that from the manner in which the hon. baronet had expressed himself, he might well be construed to be delivering a more extended opinion than his own. He had, however, stood alone in the court of directors, as the panegyrist of marquis Wellesley, whose conduct the directors disapproved, and considered extremely detrimental to the interests of the company. The circumstance of the court having been obliged to send out another noble marquis, to remedy the inju-
481
Mr. Paull
replied at considerable length to the different speakers, and called loudly on the house to notice the protection extended to save lord Wellesley by a part of the administration, (he alluded principally to lord Temple and Mr. H. Addington). He hoped, he said, the house would notice it, the public he was sure would, and the manner he had been deserted by those, who had taken a part formerly to bring this nobleman to justice. But his principal reply was directed to the hon. bart. (sir T. Metcalfe) who had advised him (Mr. Paull) to abandon the prosecution. He stated that not only would he proceed, but that it was known to the right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox) that he had still two charges to prefer, of a most serious nature, against lord Wellesley for the seizure of Furrukabad, and for profuse, wasteful, unauthorized expenditure of the revenues committed to his charge, and for applying to his own use large sums of the public money, contrary to the act of parliament limiting the allowances of the governor-general to 25,000
l
l
482
Mr. Wellesley Pole.
Does the hon. gent. mean to say, that the noble marquis has misapplied the public money for his own advantage?
Mr. Paull
I mean to say that be expended large sums of money, contrary to the act of parliament, for his own convenience, his own show, and splendour.
Mr. W. Pole
felt it necessary to ask the hon. gent. again, whether he meant to state that the noble marquis had diverted the public money to his own private purposes and advantage?
Mr. W. Paull
repeated, that his charge was, that the public money was expended for purposes of convenience, splendour, and show.
Mr. W. Pole
Does the hon. gent. mean to bring forward a charge of peculation? He has stated his intention of making a new charge, and I expect a distinct explanation. This is the first time that the breath of calumny has dared so to accuse marquis Wellesley.
Mr. Paull
did not mean to accuse the noble marquis of peculation, but repeated his charge, that he had applied the public money for his own convenience, splendour, and show.
Mr. W. Pole
I must understand, then, that the hon. gent. means to say, that the noble marquis has misapplied the public money for public purposes. I can easily conceive that he may mean to say, that too much money has been expended on the palace of Calcutta, or that the guard had beets unnecessarily increased; but I still wish to know, whether he means to say that marquis Wellesley has used the public money for his. own private advantage? The house will feel the justice of my request of a distinct answer to this question.
Mr. Paull
I mean distinctly to charge marquis Wellesley with wasteful, profuse, unauthorized, extravagant expenditure of the public money, and with misapplication of the same to purposes contrary to law.
The Speaker
then put the question on the several motions, for the production of papers, as made by the hon. mover in the early stage of the debate; when
Mr. H. Addington
proposed as an amendment, that the words, "so far as these va-
483
Mr. Paull
thought the object of this amendment, by withholding what the right hon. gent. might chose to consider state secrets, would be a great impediment to obtaining necessary information.
Mr. Wilberforce
said, he felt jealous of the system of secrecy which was creeping into practice; he hoped this amendment would not be considered as a precedent, as there was no calculating upon the extent of the mischief that might arise from the practice of adding amendments oft his kind.
Mr. H. Addington
replied, that what it was wished to withhold, merely related to certain papers respecting the Indian coast, not relevant to the point intended to be elucidated.—The question as amended was then put and carried.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 18.
[MINUTES.] Lord Collingwood's
Annuity bill was read a third time and passed.—Mr. Alexander brought up the American Treaty bill, the Wool Exportation bill, the English and Irish Militia bill, the Militia Subaltern's bill, the Militia Adjutant's bill; which were severally read a first time.
[WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL.]
On the third reading of the Declaratory bill, earl Stanhope moved to leave out the proviso which had been added to the bill by lord Eldon.
Lord Ellenborough
said, he had framed a clause which he intended to propose as a substitute for the proviso, and which he thought would answer every purpose intended to be provided for by the noble and learned lord (Eldon), whilst at the same time it would obviate the objections made to the proviso by other noble lords. Instead of referring generally to the practice of courts of equity, which had been objected to as not being consonant with the practice of courts of common law, he proposed to state specifically the exceptions to the general rule laid down in the bill. In the clause he had drawn up he proposed to enact, that no mortgagee, or
bonâ fide
484
The Lord chancellor
expressed his approbation of the clause, which he thought would answer every purpose intended by the proviso.—The further consideration of the bill was then postponed till to-morrow, to give time for the engrossment of the clause.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 18.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Stedman
from the Stamp Office, presented an account of the arrears and balances in the hands of the distributers on the 10th of Oct. 1805, and also on the 5th of Jan. 1806.—Mr. Shaw Lefevre presented a petition from the governors of St. Luke's Hospital, complaining of a surcharge which had been imposed upon them for servants who were indispensably necessary to the purposes of the hospital; and also, that the commissioners to whom they appealed had confirmed the said surcharge. The petitioners therefore prayed for the interposition of parliament. When the petition was read, Mr. Shaw Lefevre stated, that if the business were not taken up by government, he would take occasion to propose that all hospitals, and other charitable institutions, should be exempted from the operation of the Income Tax. The propriety of such an exemption was, he thought, forcibly suggested by the case stated in this petition.—Mr. H. Addington gave notice of a motion for tomorrow, relative to some orders on the books for the production of certain documents relative to India. The object of his motion he described to be this, that those who immediately presided over the affairs of India should be invested with a discretionary power, as in other cases, to withhold any of the documents, the production of which might appear to be injurious to the public service.
[DUBLIN PAVING BILL.] Mr. W. Wynne
brought in a bill to amend an act, made in the last session, for appointing commissioners to enquire and examine into any irregularities and abuses which might have taken place in conducting and managing the paving, cleansing, and lighting the streets of Dublin, and for making several provisions relating thereto; and to
485
Mr. Alexander
took occasion to animadvert upon the conduct of lord Hardwicke towards the late Paving Board of Dublin. which was composed of respectable persons, but whose character had suffered much in public estimation in consequence of the measures taken by lord Hardwicke for the suspension of their powers. From this suspension an idea had gone abroad that they had been guilty of some malversation.
Mr. W. Wynne
said, that lord Hardwicke had thought it his duty to institute an enquiry upon the subject referred to by the hon. member. The proceedings of the commission of enquiry would be speedily printed, and when laid before parliament would speak for itself. Lord Hardwicke had, pursuant to the act, granted the sum allowed to other commissioners, while the paving corporation was subject to enquiry, in order that the streets of Dublin should be kept in proper repair.
Mr. Long
did not conceive the case of the paving corporation at all prejudged or prejudiced by the course which lord Hardwicke had taken; that course struck him to be extremely proper.
Lord De Blaquiere
vindicated the conduct and character of the paving corporation, of which he described himself to be a member, and desired that any charge which could be alleged against them might be immediately brought forward.
Mr. Ormsby
thought a slur was cast upon the character of the paving board, by the conduct of lord Hardwicke.— After some further remarks, the bill was read a first time.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 19.
[WOOLLEN MANUFACTURERS' BILL]
The house resolved itself into a committee on the Woollen Manufacturers' Suspension bill. Mr. Adam, the counsel, was proceeding on behalf of certain clothiers in the counties of York, Gloucester, and Somerset, who had petitioned respecting certain parts of the bill; when he was stopped by the committee; and counsel being ordered to withdraw, earl Spencer expressed his opinion that the petitioners were not entitled to be heard on the grounds stated in their petition, the principle of the bull being merely to con-
486
[WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL.]
On the further consideration of the Declaratory bill,
Lord Ellenborough
after adverting to the clause which he had yesterday stated his intention of proposing to substitute for the proviso added to the bill on the motion of laid Eldon, said, that he had been unable to frame the clause so as to satisfy his own mind. He therefore thought it would be the best way to omit the proviso altogether, and leave the bill simply declaratory, as originally proposed by his noble and learned friend on the woolsack, leaving it to the house of commons to add any clause which they might deem advisable.
The Lord Chancellor
said, he had originally concurred in the proviso proposed by his noble and learned friend (lord Eldon), in deference to the opinion of that noble and learned lord, and because he thought that the proviso could do no harm. It was his opinion, however, that if the bill passed as a simple declaratory bill, the law would stand thus; that if a witness objected that answering any question stated would render him liable to a civil action, such a naked and general demurrer would immediately be over-ruled; but if out of the particular situation of the witness, or the circumstances of the case, there should arise any special ground of objection, it would still be in the power of the judge to decide upon such special objection according to the law as it should appear to him, he not being compelled by this declaratory law to over-rule such objection in the first instance.
487
Earl Stanhope
contended, that if the bill was passed as a simple declaratory bill, without any proviso, it would declare that to he law which had not been acknowledged to be law by any of the judges, or by any noble and learned lord in that house.—It was then agreed to omit the whole of the proviso, and leave the bill as it originally stood, merely declaratory of the laws. The bill thus amended, was read a 3d time, passed, and ordered to be sent to the commons.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 19.
[MINUTES.]
A new Writ was ordered for the county of Kilkenny, in the room of the right hon. W. Brabazon Ponsonby, now lord Ponsonby.—Mr. Bond, took the oaths and his seat.—The Scotch Creditors' bill was read a 3d time and passed.—The Customs Expiring Laws bill, the Excise Expiring Laws bill, and the Felons' Transportation bill, were severally read a 2d time.—Mr. Vansittart moved, that there be laid before the house an estimate of the,sum wanted to discharge the interest of the Exchequer bills that might be paid off in the course of the year 1806.—The 10,500,000
l.
[IRISH MILITIA SERVICE BILL.]
Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the Irish Militia Service bill, which was read; and the question being put that the said report be agreed to,
Mr. Lee
observed, that he had not been present on a preceding day, when an hon. member (Mr. Keene) had delivered sentiments at large on the object of this bill. He entirely concurred however with that hon. member in thinking that nothing could be more advantageous to both countries than an interchange of their respective Militias. He disapproved however of the manner in which this object had been effected for three years past. This bill seemed now to he considered as an annual measure; it had been introduced immediately after the union; it had been passed as a measure of course last year, and was now passing the house in the same manner. But instead of this bill being regarded as an annual measure, he wished to see its object carried into effect on the ground of the
488
General Tarleton
was of opinion, that it any discussion on this subject was at present premature. The late memorable and glorious victory of Trafalgar put an end to all apprehensions of invasion, so that in
489
Lord Folkestone
was not aware that such a bill was before the house, till the hon. gent. got up to speak on the subject. He perfectly concurred with him, however, that such a bill ought not to be brought annually before the house. If it was a proper measure, it ought to be rendered permanent and embodied in the constitution of the militia. But whether at the same time, he should agree with the propriety of the measure at all, was a question that would remain for him to determine when the subject should come more formally before the house.
Lord Castlereagh,
in reply to the first speaker on this question, respecting the great disproportion in numbers between the Irish and English Militia, stated, that it had been considered as a matter of policy by his majesty's late government to have the militia establishment in Ireland as high as possible, as it did not at all interfere with the recruiting of the regular army, the bounty of three guineas, which was that given by the Militia; bearing no proportion to ten and twelve guineas, which was the bounty offered by the regulars. His lordship observed further, that the vacancies that took place in the Irish Militia from recruiting into the line were easily filled up, and at a very small expence, as the colonels of those corps had only to receive a compensation of three guineas, which was the bounty for a new man. This circumstance contributed to keep the Irish establishment so very numerous, and at the same time was one of the readiest means of recruiting when necessary the disposable and regular force of the country. For this reason he should be glad if a similar system were adopted by his majesty's new government in the arrangements they were about to submit to the house.
Mr. Vansittart
said, as the whole of the military system of the country was soon to
490
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Hiley Addington
pursuant to his notice of yesterday rose to make his promised motion respecting the papers that had been lately ordered to he laid before the house, relative to the Raj of Bhurtpore. It was not his intention to affect in any degree the general nature of that order, or to move for any thing new on the subject. The object of his motion was merely of a verbal nature, and originated, as he conceived, in an omission in the terms of the motion by which the papers had been ordered to be produced. On the general principle that nothing should be laid before the house that might prove prejudicial to the public service and interests, he wished to introduce a restriction to this effect in the said order, as parts of those papers might be highly improper to be made public. He did not at the same time make this proposition from any certain conviction that there was any thine improper in those papers, though he had a general impression that it might be so; not having perused them so as to ascertain this circumstance. The right hon. member, without apprehending any opposition, rested chiefly on the ground of his motion being not unprecedeuted; for which purpose, he quoted the terms of the motion made for papers respecting India, also in June 1805, by an hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) now in his place. The order for the production of the papers, relative to the Rajah of Bhurtpore, having been therefore read, he moved "that the said order may only extend to such parts of the said papers, as may be disclosed without prejudice to the public service.—On the question being put,
Mr. Francis
Mr. Speaker; I flatter myself that the part, which I hold myself bound to take with regard to the present motion, will not be attributed by the right hon. gent. to personal disrespect, or to any doubt about the purity of his. intentions. I can assure him that my opposition to it is founded on a very different
491
492
493
bonâ fide
494
*
*
495
Mr. Hiley Addington
said, he had considered his motion so much a matter of course, that if he had in his contemplation any possible objection to it, he should have intruded on the house by stating the grounds on which he made it. It was not the present Board of Controul that made the precedent. They found it, and in a motion made by the hon. gent. himself last session. The hon. member had done him the justice to allow that he had no improper motive in making this motion. He thanked him for his good opinion, and hoped, that on this occasion he had acted under the influence of no improper bias. But even supposing this were the case, and that from attachment to the noble marquis he should be anxious to keep back any information from the house, could, he be supposed possessed of that influence necessary to succeed in such a hopeless attempt? Could he be supposed to have influence enough with all the members of the board, to be able to keep back, evidence, from such motives and on so flimsy a pretext? The conduct of the board, in the whole of this business, had shewn their sentiments to be very different. They had not refused a single paper that had been asked. But, however willing the board might be to withhold any information on the grounds alledged, was it in their power to do so without incurring disgrace? Were there not members in that house sufficiently acquainted with those documents, to know whether any of them were withheld? Would the directors permit any such connivance on the part of the board, without making such remonstrances as would expose the motives of their conduct? Such a discretionary power, he thought, might with safety be invested in the board. Their responsibility was a pledge to the house, that such discretionary power was not likely
496
Lord Folkestone
by no means agreed with the right hon. member who had brought forward this motion, that such a discretionary power could be lodged with safety in the hands of any board. Should they be invested with this power, they might make any use of it they pleased, and at the same time not be responsible. He did not consider precedent as a good argument in favour of this measure. Such precedents were not to be followed, for if the measure itself was bad, it could not be justified by any precedent, and to adopt it would be only adding another precedent for a bad measure. The discretionary power he would allow to reside in his majesty's ministers, but he would by no means concede such a power to any board whatever. And even this discretionary power he insisted was only given to ministers on certain terms; they were not invested at large with such powers, but were entitled to come to the house and state their objections to the production of any particular paper, or any part of a paper on public grounds, and the house relying on their responsibility, were entitled to sustain their objections; but such an extended discretionary power as was proposed by this motion, invested without any controul, even in ministers, would be extremely dangerous, and if not granted to them, how could it be reconciled with propriety to grant it to any board whatever? The fair and open way, he thought, for gentlemen to follow on this occasion, was, after perusing the papers, and finding some parts of them of a nature not to be laid before the house, to come down and avow it, and receive permission, on their responsibility, to withhold them. The argument the right hon. member had used in favour of his motion made more against it than for it; for if he had not perused the papers, how could he know that they contained any thing that was not proper to be laid before the house? While he avowed his ignorance of this circumstance, nothing could be more improper than so extended a discretionary power. He hoped the hon. gent. who had opposed the motion would persevere in his intention to take the sense of the house upon it.
Mr. Francis
said, in explanation, that in his motion of June 1805, he had introduced no such discretionary power. It had been introduced by others, and he had been
497
Mr. Secretary Fox
found himself involved in some, difficulty on this occasion. The precedent bad been established last year. If a question had been started upon it then, or if it was a new question now, he should have no difficulty in saying, that he should prefer adhering to the old practice of leaving ministers on such occasions, to act on their general responsibility. He admitted that there were two ways in which a discretionary power might be given to ministers: the first was, as a noble lord opposite (lord Folkestone) had very justly stated, when ministers came down to the house, and representing it general terms the prejudice it would be to the public service to communicate more particular information on any subject, they were permitted on their responsibility to withhold this information. The other, which perhaps was the more recent way of the two, was restricting any order of the house for information, in such terms as beforehand admitted the ministers to withhold it at descretion, without assigning any reason, or taking notice of the particular article, such matters as they might judge expedient. At the same time, he should observe, that there was no such material difference between the ordinary discretion exercised by ministers, when called on to produce papers, and that contained by the present motion. The orders of the house were generally for copies or extracts of the papers called for. Who were to give these extracts, but the ministers who exercised their discretion in withholding such parts, the discovery of which might be injurious to the public service? Here, however, the papers were not in one or two confidential hands alone, but in those of a variety of persons who would quickly discover if the discretion demanded was abused. The agreeing to the motion therefore, this case, was not a consideration of great importance, or rather it was one of no importance at all. As he had already said, if this were a new question, he should incline to object to the motion; but considering that similar additions had been made to all the orders on this subject, not only during last session, but two nights ago, in the case of Surat, without being seriously objected to, he would rather recommend to his hons. friend (Mr. Francis) to withdraw his opposition, he (Mr. FOX) saying that if a new case should occur, in which
498
Mr. Bankes
thought it incumbent on the house to put an end as soon as possible to bad precedents, as well as to avoid creating any. Should the present question be carried, it would strengthen the former precedents, and render them still more dangerous. They were not to regard it as relative to India only, but as applicable to any other case that might come before the house. He was a little surprized at the manner in which the right hon. secretary of state had just expressed himself: he had owned that he supported it only because there was a precedent for it, and that if it were a new question he would reject it; such a precedent should, therefore, be done away as soon as possible. The hon. gent. suggested the propriety of withdrawing the motion till his right hon. friend should have an opportunity of examining the papers; and if he should find any part that could not be safely produced, he pledged himself to support his motion upon the statement of that specific ground.
Lord H. Petty
concurred with the noble lord who had spoken, that the species of responsibility which he had recommended, resulting from all application to the house, on the part of ministers, in particular instances, and after assigning their particular reasons, was certainly the best. He agreed with his right hon. friend near hint (Mr. Fox), as to the responsibility of ministers, and thought that in this case nothing more was asked that in this had been very lately acceded to without any objection. He was convinced his right hon. friend who brought forward the, motion, had no view in it but what from a salutary caution; but as the house seemed to think the precedent not a good one, he wished for one, to revert to the former practice, and would recommend it to his right hon. friend to withdraw his motion.
Lord Castlereagh
stated the ground upon which he had recommended the insertion of similar words to those then under consideration. in the order of last session to
499
Mr. Bastard
believed the motion had been made from no improper motives. He condemned the precedent on which it was founded, and insisted, that on this principle there could be no use for notices respecting such motions, as no examination would be necessary to ascertain the propriety or impropriety of the production of any papers previously to their being moved for.
Mr. Wilberforce
felt himself much obliged to the noble lord opposite for the candour with which he had expressed himself, and imputed no blame to the right hon. gent. who had made the motion, but at the same time had no hesitation in opposing it from principle.
Lord Temple
contended that no responsibility resided in the directors, but only in the board of controul, and that it was with the board the house had to transact any business, or to give any instructions. The question, be thought, in the course of the debate, had grown into an importance that it did not deserve. He had no objections however, that the old mode of responsibility should on this occasion be resorted to, though the motion appeared to him to be as respectful a way of treating the house.
Lord Morpeth
thought the responsibility of ministers should be whole and entire, and hoped the motion would be withdrawn.
Mr. H. Addington
said, ever since his noble friend's objection, he wished to withdraw his motion, but seeing many respectable members desirous to deliver their opinions, he had refrained from doing so till they had spoken. He assured the house he bad no idea of there being the slightest objection to it, but as there was, he would, with the leave of the house, withdraw it; which was accordingly done.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 20
[MINUTES.]
The American Treaty bill,
500
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 20.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Baker presented a petition from the Debtors confined in New-gate.—Mr. Martin presented a petition from the Maltsters of Tewkesbury.—Sir P. Stephens presented the Papers relative to the Naval Commissioners moved for by Mr. Whitbread.—Sir M. W. Ridley presented a petition from the Shoe-makers of Newcastle against a bill now pending in parliament for abolishing certain societies of their craft.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the 10½ Million Exchequer Bills bill was read a 2d time.—The Irish Militia Service bill was read a 3d time, and passed.—The 1½ Million Exchequer bill was read a 2d time.—Mr. W. Wynne presented Copies of the Circular Letters from lord Hawkesbury to the lords Lieutenants of Counties, relative to the Additional Force act.—On the motion of Mr. W. Wynne, that the Dublin Paving bill be read a 2d time, a conversation arose, in which lord De Blaquiere, Mr. Alexander, and Mr. Ormsby, opposed the bill, on the ground that it was a job, interfering with the legal rights of creditors. It was defended by Mr. W. Wynne, and Mr. J. La Touche; ultimately, the 2d reading was deferred till Tuesday.—After a short conversation between Mr. Dillon and Dr. Duigenan, it was ordered, that the account which had
501
[MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS.]
General
Tarleton
Mr. Secretary Windham
said, the hon. general was certainly correct in calling it a half notice: he had not given any regular notice, because it was not in his power to pledge himself that he should be prepared to bring it forward by Monday. Notwithstanding the great anxiexy which the hon. general and his friends might feel upon the subject, or which might be felt out of doors, he could only say, that it did not appear to him that any inconvenience would result from a little delay. He did not see any necessity for hurrying measures of such vast importance and delicacy, and which required the maturest deliberation. Although the expectation of the hon. general might have been disappointed by this apparent delay, his was not. It appeared to him, that the object of the greatest importance was, to give the fullest consideration to any changes that were to be proposed, before the subject was introduced, and he saw no other inconvenience that could result from the unavoidable delay, than that it would disappoint the curiosity, and the anxious expectation of a number of persons.
General Tarleton
mentioned, that considerable anxiety must necessarily be felt on the subject, both by the gentlemen of the army and the volunteers.
Mr. Secretary Windham
said, that as soon as he was prepared to bring the
502
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 21.
[MINUTES.]
The American Treaty bill, the Wool Exportation bill, the Mutiny bill, the English and Irish Militia bills, the Militia Subalterns bill, the Militia Adjutants bill, and the Scotch Bankrupt bill, were read a third time and passed.—On the motion of lord Eldor, the further consideration of the claims of the duke of Clarence and other royal dukes to the right of voting in the election of representative peers for Ireland, was fixed for Tuesday.
[WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL.] Lord Eldon,
after adverting to what had taken place on Wednesday relative to the Declaratory bill, observed, that he did not attend on that day in consequence of understanding that a noble and learned lord (Ellenborough), not now in his place, would propose a clause specifically providing for the exceptions to the general principle and which was to be substituted for the proviso which he (lord Eldon) had proposed to their lordships. From what had happened however on that day, he was convinced that he must have misunderstood the intentions of the noble and learned lord to whom he had alluded, He was still of opinion that the bill, if passed in its present shape, might generate much mischief, and could he have conceived that no qualifying clause would have been proposed, he would have attended ,in his place on Wednesday, and stood out to the last for the adoption of his proviso. As the business stood now, he must content himself with giving notice that if the bill came up from the house of commons without receiving any amendment that could bring the subject again into discussion, he should make a motion on the bill brought in by a noble lord (Stanhope) for the purpose of bringing the question again under their lordships' consideration.
The Lord chancellor
after adverting to the causes which had given rise to the Declaratory bill, which he had had the honour to present to their lordships, contended that the general enactment contained in the bill, merely declared the law to be what the majority of the judges had stated it; but did not take away any of those, privileges of demurrer which witnesses were previously allowed by law, or the power of the judge to decide on such grounds of demurrer according to the law
503
Lord Eldon
still adhered to his former opinion relative to the operation of the bill. He thought however, it would be advisable if the bill was not amended in the house of commons to put a question to the judges for the purpose of ascertaining whether the exceptions to the general principles were saved or not under the general enacting words of the bill.
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, March 21.
[MINUTES.] Sir S. Cottrell
one of the clerks of the privy council, presented at the bar, "a Return of the total number of vacancies which have arisen in the Additional Force, by death or desertion, men reclaimed as deserters, or claimed as apprentices, or discharged as unfit for service, for the year preceding the 1st of Sept. 1805, together with the number who had volunteered into the regular forces, for the year ending 1st of Oct. 1805, pursuant to the 14th and 15th sect. of 44 Geo. III. cap. 56." Ordered to be printed.— Mr. Burdon rose to submit a proposition of great and general importance, and particularly to the poorer classes of the community. It was become in the highest degree necessary to ascertain, and to fix upon some mode for the accurate measure meat of coals, for in consequence of the want of such an arrangement the public and especially the poor and ignorant, were subject to the grossest frauds and imposition. To remedy such evils was the object of the measure he had thought it his duty to bring forward. The hon. member concluded with moving, for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulating the admeasurement of coals seaborne; which was given.—Mr. Staveley presented at the bar an Account of the receipts and arrears in the Post-Office department on the 5th of Jan. 1806, and Mr. Franklyn presented an Account from the commissioners of customs of the arrears and balances due by collectors, &c. These accounts were ordered to lie on the table, and the latter was ordered to be printed.—Ordered on the
504
[BUDGET.] Lord Henry Petty
gave notice, that on Friday next he would move for the house to resolve itself into a committee, to consider of the Ways and Means which he should submit to them of providing the supplies necessary for the service of the present year.
Mr. Rose
considered it as unusual to bring forward the Ways and Means before all the estimates of the year had been voted by the house. At present the house were still ignorant of the military estimates for the year.
Mr. Vansittart
replied, that whatever regulations might be made in the military affairs of the country, must, as a matter of course, be submitted to a distinct committee of supply; and though his noble friend might explain the ways and means he had to propose, it did not follow that any more would be voted, than what appeared upon the estimates.
Lord Henry Petty
said, that the right hon. gent. would have an opportunity of stating any objections that might occur to him, when the question was brought forward.
Mr. Rose
rejoined, that he knew the conversation was, at this time, irregular; but be was struck with the singularity of brin-
505
[ELECTION TREATING BILL.] Mr.Tierney
moved the second reading of the Election Treating bill. Upon the question being put,
Mr. Fuller
rose and expressed his surprize, that the right hon. gent. should submit such an important motion without saying one sentence upon the subject. To say much in its favour, he thought quite beyond the power of the right hon. gent. or any other person. Indeed, it did not appear to his mind that such a measure could at all be sustained, for its tendency would be to disfranchise an immense proportion of the freeholders of the country. In the case even of the county he had the honour to represent, what would be the fate of the poor freeholders who lived above 80 miles from the place of polling? Why, that such persons, unable to defray the expence of the journey, would fore it their votes. The same thing would, no doubt, happen in many, if not all other counties. It was enough that poor freeholders should be subject to the loss of time and the trouble of going to the hustings, without being called upon to submit to the expence of carriage from distant quarters. This ex-pence was no material loss to the 'candidates, and it was to be recollected that the poor voters were only treated to this jaunt once in seven years. It would be cruel then to dash this trivial cup from the poor man's lips. The house should bear in mind the manner in which our sagacious enemy acted towards his people, particularly towards his soldiery, to every one of whom he occasionally appealed, complimenting them at once as the judge of his conduct the means of his success, and the partake] of his glory. A similar policy should govern this country. Every Englishman should be taught to feel a common interest with his country and its legislature, and the best Mode to encourage that feeling was by making every, even the poorest freeholder, an arbiter of the conduct of his representative. But the object of this bill would be to deprive the greater part of the poor freeholders of this important right. If such a bill were to pass, the effect would be to injure independent candidates, to exclude distant voters, and to leave the
506
Mr. Morris
professed the greatest respect for the hon. mover of the bill. He knew him to be intimately acquainted with the laws on the subject of treating at elections, and that the whole had engaged much of his attention. But his objections to the present bill were of such a radical nature, that no alteration or amendment could reconcile him to its adoption, and therefore he felt this the proper stage to make his stand against it. If it were meant as a declaratory law, to explain the act of king William, he would resist it as totally unnecessary, and if meant to go farther than that act, he would resist it as improper and unjust. The giving meat and drink to voters was already prohibited by the letter of the statute of William, and there, in his judgement, the law went far enough. If it proceeded the length of forbidding the conveyance of voters at the expence of candidates, he should sincerely regret it, and, among others, for the reasons stated by the last speaker. But it was urged, he understood, by the right hon. mover of this bill, whose speech he had not the good fortune to hear, that doubts existed with respect to the interpretation of the law upon the, subject of treating, and that therefore a declaratory law was necessary. Of the existence of such doubts, he was not at all aware. In the Worcester case, alluded to by the right hon. gent., the argument of council was evidently mistaken for the decision of the committee. The fact was, that subsequent to that decision, a bill was brought in, as it professed, to remove doubts as to the treating act. That bill found its way into the house of lords, where it was strongly reprobated by lord Mansfield, who very properly observed, that the multiplication of statutes, instead of adding to the strength of the law, served to impair and weaken it. Such a remark was always entitled to consideration, but particularly
507
508
s
s
l
s
509
Mr. Francis
rose and said:—Mr. Speaker; The unexpected mention, which the learned gent. has made of me by name, and of my hon. friend the present representative of the city of Coventry, makes it indispensibly necessary to set my hon. friend and myself right on this subject. The learned gent. has been led into a great error concerning some supposed facts, which he has asserted, and he has done us great injustice. I had not the advantage of hearing the first part of his speech, and therefore I know not, nor am I able to conjecture on what evidence he makes such assertions. Whatever it may be, I assure him it is false. On this point I cannot be mistaken, because it is impossible I should ever forget the contested election at Tewksbury in 1796, or any material passage in that transaction. In truth, I have too much reason to remember it. The calumnies,
510
us
511
512
*
*
†Vide Mr. Francis's Letter to Mr. Wyvill, dated 20th Jan. 1795. Vol. V. p. 295.
513
proletarii
capite censi
514
Mr. Morris
explained, that he took his statement of Mr. Francis's case from the reports of the Court of King's Bench, which were generally allowed to be accurate.
Mr. Tierney
disclaimed the slightest intention of proposing to disfranchise any freeholders under 30
l.
Mr. W. Dundas
said, that he should find himself under the necessity of opposing the present bill, unless Scotland was altogether excluded from the operation of it.
Mr. Johnstone
could not see that any great benefit was likely to arise from the alterations that this bill proposed. As to the practical part of the constitution, he thought, it would be hard to point out any considerable improvement. He might quote the words of Dr. Paley, who would be allowed to be a good authority on the subject. He might, like him, ask, Whom is this house composed of? It is of men which come from every class of society, which produces considerable talent and information. In that house there were not only representatives of the landed interests, but of the commercial interest also; there were men, who were the most distinguished in every liberal profession and honourable situation. He could not see what sort of men were fitter, to sit in that house, than those who actually had seats under the present mode of representation. As he therefore did not perceive any practical good that was to result from Changing either the mode of representation, or the description of persons who were to be representatives, he should oppose the bill.
Mr. Lee
considered this a measure, the appropriate title of which would be "a bill to lessen, the number of voters." It was calculated, he thought, to deprive a class of men of the right of voting, who, although poor, were capable of exercising that right as independently and as free from corruption as persons of affluence. He could never relish the idea of disfranchising a
515
statu quo
Sir R. Buxton
entreated the house not lightly to reject a measure which he thought perfectly congenial with the spirit of the British constitution. According to the principles of that constitution, a man should come into that house free and independent, and the constituent who sent him there should be free and independent also. Now the former could not be so if he were to pay an enormous sum of money for his election; nor could the latter be so if he were to receive money for his vote; and, disguise it as gentlemen pleased, the expense of carriage was a species of payment to the voter. There was a time when, instead of members paying for their election, they were paid for their attendance; and he should be glad to see the same, practice again. The hon. baronet repeated his wish. Members would be likely to enter that house not with a view to derive any emoluments from the state, but for the benefit of the country.
Mr. Rose
did not agree with the distinction taken by the hon. and learned gent. (Mr. Morris) that if any thing more was given than merely the price of conveyance to the place of election, it must be considered bribery. If freemen were to be conveyed to a distant town, suppose, for instance, Coventry, it was evident that there must be considerable expences besides the mere price of the carriage. The candidates were now in a very disagreeable situation, as they could not tell, in the manner the law now stood, what was, or what was not, to be considered in that light. He thought it was therefore right that the law should be made explicit on this point. He trusted that the house would pause before they rejected such a proposition, and begged them to consider that if the expence of carriages were allowed, it was nonsense to suppose that refreshment and treating by the way would not follow;
516
Mr. Courtenay
remarked upon the purity of the principle and the refinement of notion, which the house had witnessed in the speech of the hon. baronet, and the right hon. gent. who had just followed him. Really those two gentlemen were not only so pure themselves, but they seemed to think they were addressing themselves to an angelic audience. No doubt the hon. baronet came into that house with the purest and most disinterested views, and had nothing in view but the good of his country— and the right hon. gent, who followed him was inspired with equal purity, and equally discarded every consideration but that of patriotism. That right hon. gent. had stated, that it was nonsense to suppose that a voter would go from one place to another to give his vote without receiving something more than the law would allow. No doubt the right hon. gent. spoke from his experience. He was, it might be presumed, tolerably competent to judge upon such a subject; and so, perhaps, were others also. If in reality, every candidate were disqualified who paid the travelling expence of poor voters to the hustings, nay, something more, the right hon. gent. would admit, that the benches on both sides would be rather thinned. For himself, he would say, that he did not like this extreme solicitude to exclude the poor from the gratification usually enjoyed at popular elections. They seldom had such opportunities, and when they offered they ought not to be shut out from them, merely on the pretence of seeking for purity. He could not approve of the use of a filtering stone to clear away all the mud of poverty, vulgar mirth, &c. from popular elections, and to let nothing but the pure water of affluence, good order, &c. trickle down to invigorate the members of that house. The right hon. mover had said, that he would not introduce a bill to disqualify freeholders under 30
l
s
517
—" Where every man enjoys,
"His liberty and property of noise."
Captain Herbert
disapproved of the bill because it would have the effect of disfranchising by much the greater propotion of the electors of this country, namely, all those who resided at a distance from the place of election. This bill, if it passed in its present state, would have the effect, in a great county, of making it the election not of the county at large, but of the county town, and instead of operating in favour of gentlemen of small fortune getting into that house, as the right hon. mover alleged would completely defeat that end, if they resided in any remote part of the county by depriving them of the power of bringing forward their friends.
Mr. Secretary Fox
rose to assure his right hon. friend who brought in the hill that his voting for the bill's going into committee, by no means proceeded front his objections to the bill being done away; but from a desire to see if it might not be there rendered more palateable, if not entirely agreeable to the wishes of gentlemen on all sides. There was one object of the bill to which he was friendly, that of removing doubts which at present existed. If that could be done, it would be highly desirable; and, as such, he would vote for its going to a committee; but he, by no means, in giving this vote, pledged himself to any further support of the bill. He thought it necessary to say thus much, lest his vote should be misconstrued.
Mr. Buller
said, that when such high authorities as the chief justices of the two supreme courts differed, and the committees of that house also; it was necessary those doubts should be removed; and he wished, therefore, the bill should go into a committee. He approved also of the poll being taken in large counties, in different places, as it would tend much to lessen the expences, and enable men of moderate fortunes, to offer themselves as
518
Mr. Leycester
begged to put the house right as to the supposed contrariety of opinion between the judgments of the two courts. The decision in the Common Pleas was the only one which could be calculated on, as that in the King's Bench, which was not as solemn judgment, but merely a verdict at Nisi Prius, did not at all proceed on the act of King William, but was founded on the statute of George. II. imposing penalties, where the judge necessarily left. it to the jury to find,
quo animo
l
The Attorney General (sir Arthur Pigott)
hoped to be forgiven while he in as few words as possible stated the situation in which the law of the case at present stood. The only instance in which a solemn decision on the point had taken place was that before alluded to, in the court of Common Pleas, in which the law was laid down as stated by his right hon. friend who introduced the bill; as to what had passed at Nisi Prius, that he did not pretend to know. As to the state of the practice before the committees of the house of commons, that, he confessed, had been in general contrary to the decision of the court of Common Pleas. He had had considerable practice in matters of that kind, and he had seen several committees find that the providing of carriages to electors who resided at a distance, or supplying them with the means of providing such carriages, were not violations of the act of king William. Other committees he had seen find, that supporting such electors while absent from home, and enabling them again to return to the place from whence they came, were also not to be esteemed as falling under the act. For 20 years, he was certain, that had been the general plan pursued by committees: that was to say, elections were not declared void on account of such practices. But the difficulty had always been, what was properly to be ascribed to those motives, and if, under pretence of such allowace, any corruption had been exercised. Where no such excess was found, the facts already stated, were not esteemed grounds on which the elections should be declared void. This was an extremely singular state of the law between our courts of justice and our parliamentary judicature. In the courts of law, an action for these expences could not be entertained; in our parliamentary judicature they were held to be perfectly
519
Mr. Tierney
rose to reply. He observed that it appeared to him rather inconsistent in his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox), to consent to the bill going into a committee, while he at the same time pretty clearly signified his disapprobation of its principle. One gentleman had found fault with the bill because he considered it a sort of parliamentary reform. Another objected to it, because it was not a parliamentary reform, and thought that he (Mr. Tierney) had deserted that principle, which he had so often professed that he adhered to. In the first place, he would say, this measure was not connected with what was generally called a parliamentary reform. But at the sane time, no person ought to consider his introducing it, as any dereliction of the principles and opinions he had formerly professed. A wise and prudent lover of reform would get what he could towards his object, when circumstances prevented him from getting what he wished. He was a little astonished at what had fallen from another hon. gent. (Mr. Courtenay), who had been a long time, a warm advocate for parliamentary reform, and who still considered the noise and tumult attending po
520
521
Lord Porchester
objected so much to the principle of the bill, that he could not vote for its going into a committee. It was his opinion, that no bills should go into a committee but such as were approved of in their principle. His objections were principally to the disfranchisement of such a considerable number of electors.—The question was then called for, and the house divided; when the numbers appeared, for the second reading 73; against it 17; majority 56. The bill was then read the second time, and committed for Wednesday.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Huddlestone
said, he rose to move for certain papers relative to the Affairs of India; whereupon,
The Speaker
felt it his duty, as the hon. member had given no notice of his motion, to state to the hon. gent. what he conceived, after what had recently passed on this subject, the practice agreed on by the house to be: first, he understood it to be settled, that any member was entitled to move for any of the returns, or public accounts usually returned to parliament every session, without giving any notice; secondly, that any of his majesty's servants in that house had a right to move for any return they chose, at the same time, stating it to be for the use and information of that house, without any previous notice; thirdly, any gentleman might move for any official document, without notice, without giving any notice; secondly, that any of his majesty's servants in that house had a right to move for any return they chose, at the same time, stating it to be for the use and information of that house, without any previous notice; thirdly, any gentleman might move for any official document, without notice, if he at the same time stated that he had communicated his intention to some one or more of the persons in whose departments such document was deposited, and that there was no likelihood of objection to such motion. But in all other cases, he understood it to be the practice, as now settled, that no motion for any such document could be entertained by the house, without previous notice. This, until he should be further instructed by the sense of the house,
522
Mr. Huddlestone
said, he willingly submitted to the established practice of the house. The reason why he had not communicated with any of the gentlemen belonging to the department was, that he conceived there could not be the least objection made to their production. He then gave notice, that he would, on Tuesday, bring forward his motion, which was for certain papers relative to the affairs of Oude.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 24.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Lord Melville
attended in his place, and delivered in his answer to the 10th article of Impeachment. His lordship entered his protest against the unprecedented circumstance under which that additional article
523
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 24.
[MINUTES.] Sir Samuel Romilly
the new Solicitor-General, took the oaths and his seat.—Mr. Johnson, from the office of the Chief Secretary of Ireland, presented at the bar, an Account of the Consolidated Fund of Ireland, with the Charges, Payments, and Surplus, for the year 1805.—Mr. Irving, the Inspector-General of Exports and Imports, presented at the bar an Account of the Exports and Imports for 18 years, ending Feb. 1806.—Mr. Cooke from the exchequer, presented at the bar, an Account of all interest paid on exchequer bills, in the years 1803, 4, 5, and the average thereof.—Sir P. Stephens moved, for an account of the sums of money that have been issued by the Commissioners of the Navy, under the 43d of the king, for the discovery of the Longitude.—On the motion of Mr. Windham, the bill for regulating the Commerce of the Cape of Good Hope passed through a committee.—The Secretary at War presented, pursuant to order of the house, an Abstract of the total number of men raised under the Additional Force Act.—Mr. Brooke put off his motion relative to the Contracts for supplying the Navy with Spirits until Monday, as he had reason to suppose that the attention of government was directed to that subject, and that measures might be adopted in consequence, which would render it unnecessary for him to bring forward the motion.—Mr. Grey gave notice, that he should to-morrow move that the thanks of the house be given to admiral sir John Duckworth, and also to the officers, seamen, and marines of his squadron, for their gallant and signal services, by the total destruction of a division of the enemy's fleet in the late brilliant action in St. Domingo Bay.—Lord Temple, with a view to the preparation of some clauses that should remove any objections that existed against the bill for establishing a free port in the Island of Tortola, proposed that the committee on that bill should be deferred to Monday next. After a few observations from Mr. Rose and lord Temple the committee on the bill was put off
524
l.
l.
[WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL.] The Attorney General
moved the 2d reading of the bill from the lords, declaring the Liability of Witnesses to answer. On the question being put,
Mr. Perceval
said, he did not mean to oppose the 2d reading of the bill, because he should be equally at liberty to state his objections to it on the question for the speaker's leaving the chair, if his learned
525
The attorney General
said, he would not then enter into the merits of the measure, but proposed that the bill should be committed on Thursday next, when he should be ready to discuss the question with his learned friend. The bill was then read a second time.
[BUDGET.] Mr. Rose
begged leave to renew the observation which he had made on Friday last, relative, to the unprecedented case of bringing forward the Ways and Means of the year, before the particulars of the army expenditure had been submitted to parliament, or consequently the whole of the supply for the year voted. He had since looked into precedents, and was most strongly confirmed in what he had on that day urged as the opinion that struck him at the moment. There was not an instance, since the Revolution, of the ways and means of the year having been brought forward before the Army Estimates were voted. When he had stated his opinion on former night, he admitted that a supply to a certain extent had been voted. He was not then aware that the motion which stood for this day would have been put off. But really he felt constitutional objections the developement of the ways and means till the whole of the military expenditure should be voted. The supply already voted was 24,460,000
l.
l.
526
Mr. Lord Henry Petty
said, it was his only wish to put the house fully in possession of the objects of public expense, and the Ways and Means by which he proposed to meet them; and to give the house an opportunity of fully considering them before he should call for their final decision, that he should propose only a part of the Ways and Means in the first instance.
Mr. Huskisson
begged leave to remark an inconvenience that would arise from not bringing forward the whole of the Ways and Means of the year at once. According to the late practice, the contractors for a loan were given to understand, that the loan contracted for, was all that would be wanted for the year. That could not be the case, if a;part of the Ways and Means were to be subsequently provided.
Lord Henry Petty
observed that this objection would not apply, if the contractors themselves should think it proper to form their engagements on the communications made to them by his majesty's ministers.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LOAN MELVILLE.]
A message from the lords communicated to the house the answer of lord Melville, to a further Article of Impeachment, being the 10th, exhibited against him by the commons of the united kingdom. On the motion of Mr. Whitbread, this answer was ordered to be read. The answer stated, "that the noble lord protested against being bound by the law of parliament when called upon to answer to the charge, under circumstances for which there was no precedent; but that, nevertheless, conscious of his innocence, and confident in the justice of his cause, he makes this answer, saving his right of taking, exceptions, and also saving all the rights and privileges that belong to a peer of parliament. He declares for his answer, that he is in no wise guilty of the crimes and misdemeanours, in manner and form as charged against him by the commons of the united kingdom, and this he affirms himself ready to prove, at such time and place, as to that hon. house
527
Mr. Whitbread
then withdrew to the bar, and brought up the report of the Committee on the answer of lord Melville in the form of a replication, averring that lord Melville was guilty of the crimes and misdemeanours charged upon him by that house, on behalf of themselves and of all the commons of the united kingdom, which they were ready to prove. The replication was agreed to, ordered to be engrossed, and then to be carried by Mr. Whitbread to the lords, as the replication of the commons: Mr. Whitbread then gave notice, that at a proper time he should move, that the house do attend the trial as a committee of the whole house.
[ORDNANCE TREASURERS' BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
moved the order of the day for the house to resolve into a committee on the bill for the better regulation of the office of Treasurer of the Ordnance. The order being read, the noble lord explained the objects of this bill: first, that the house might have under its view a correct regulation in the mode of expenditure for such sums of the public money as it should think proper to vote for this branch of the public service; and, secondly, for securing the responsibility of the public officer charged with the disbursement of such expenditure; and to prevent, as far as possible, the misapplication of money entrusted to his charge. If the bill, in its present form, should be liable to any objections, he was ready to attend to the suggestions of gentlemen, and to avail himself of their assistance, so far as he thought really conducive to the objects of the bill; and he should have no objection, if necessary, to re-commit the bill for a future day.—The house having resolved into a committee,
Mr. Wellesley Pole
said, he had a number of suggestions to propose for the adoption of the committee in amendment of this bill, which was utterly inadequate to the purposes for which it was avowed. Most of those suggestions had the approbation of the noble lord himself, upon whom he had felt it his duty to wait, and to mention his objections to the bill; for it was
528
Lord Henry Petty
acknowledged the attention paid by the hon. gent. upon a subject to which he was so eminently competent, and approved the amendment he suggested. But with respect to Ireland, the only reason why nothing was mentioned in the bill with regard to it was, that an arrangement was in contemplation, calculated to give the noble duke who, happily for that country, now presided over its government, a more effectual controul over the expenditure of the ordnance department there.
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Mr. Huskisson
said, that for a considerable time before the disease of his late right hon. friend, a project was not only in contemplation for the establishment of effectual checks, such as those now proposed, on the expenditure of public money in the ordnance department, and in every other public office, as professedly intended by the noble lord, but that the plan had really been long acted upon, and only awaited an opportunity of parliamentary regulation, under a bill in the contemplation of his right hon. friend.—The clauses were then read and agreed to, and added to the bill.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 25.
[MINUTES.]
The Committee of Privileges sat some time on the claim of the duke of Clarence to vote as a peer of Ireland in the election of representative peers for that country, but strangers were excluded.—Mr. Hawthorne brought up from the Commons the 1,500,000
l.
l.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Mr. Whitbread
and several other members of the commons, presented at the bar, in the name of the commons of the United Kingdom, a Replication to the Answer of Henry lord Melville, declaring that the said lord Melville is guilty of the high crimes and misdemeanours charged against him in the Articles of Impeachment, and that the commons are ready to prove same. The Replication having been read at the table, earl Fitzwilliam moved, that a day be appointed for the trial of Henry lord Melville: that the trial of the said lord Melville take place at the bar of the house, on the 29th of April next, at 11 in the forenoon; and that a message be sent to the commons to acquaint them therewith, and require them to appoint a committee to manage the impeachment; all which motions were agreed to, after a few words from the earl of Radnor respecting a point of form.
[VOTE OF THANKS TO ADMIRAL DUCKWORTH.] Lord Grenville
said he had requested a noble and learned friend to move
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The Duke of Norfolk
said, he could not help taking this opportunity of again calling their lordships' attention to the case of sir Robert Calder. He thought it hard that the services of that gallant admiral in the action of the first day, when, with an inferior force, he achieved a victory, should not be acknowledged by some public mark of approbation. The thirteen gallant officers who composed the court martial, he had no doubt, decided most properly; still, however, the merit of the gallant admiral on the first day remained undiminished. He spoke on this subject entirely as a landsman, but it was the opinion of others as well as himself, that sir Robert Carder was hardly dealt with in not having the merit of his first day's rencontre with the enemy publicly acknowledged. He had not the honour of being personally acquainted with the gallant admiral, but merely spoke from the impulse of his feelings upon the subject, and he had hoped that the business would have been taken up by some other noble lord.
The Earl of Romney
was proceeding to speak on the same subject, when, he was interrupted by
Lord Grenville
who spoke to order. He put it to his noble friend and relation, whether it would not be more advisable to avoid any discussion upon a subject which had no connection with the motion before the house. If what had been alluded to by the noble duke should ever become the subject of a motion in that house, which he hoped would not be the case, he should then deliver his sentiments regularly upon it, but at present he conceived it to be irregularly introduced.
The Earl of Romney
assured his noble friend and relation, that in addressing the house upon the subject, he had been solely actuated by feelings of friendship for the gallant admiral alluded to, which he trusted would plead his excuse with the house.—The motions of lord Grenville were agreed to,
nem. diss
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 25.
[MINUTES.]
The bills to authorize the issue of 10½ and 1½ million of exchequer bills, were read a 3d time and passed.—The order for the committal of the bank charter bill was discharged on the motion of Mr. Vansittart, who stated that before the house
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[COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.] Mr. Hawthorne
reported from the committee the following resolutions:—1. "That 693,076
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[VOTE OF THANKS TO ADMIRAL DUCKWORTH, &c.] Mr. Grey
(First Lord of the Admiralty)
and said, that since he had the honour of a seat in that house, he had never risen to perform so agreeable a duty as that which was now imposed upon him. To say that he anticipated the unanimous opinion of the house, and their approbation of the motion he had to make, would be to express but coldly his feelings of the sense they entertained of that most meritorious and important public service which had been lately performed. In speaking of the success oldie brave sir J. T. Duckworth, and of those officers who had seconded him with so much gallantry, he could not speak, as heretofore, of a victory gained over a superior force of the enemy; but this circumstance did not in any degree lessen the merit of the brave admiral who commanded. The promptitude with which he left his situation at Cales, when he heard of the enemy's fleet being at sea; the skill that he displayed in taking a position to intercept them at the time they owed their escape merely to the superiority of their sailing; the arrangements that he made to pursue them; and the immediate resolution he formed upon his arrival at the West Indies to attack them, although they were reported to be much superior in number, were deserving of the highest praise. As he approached them, he learned that their squadron had been divided, which division will, in all probability, afford another occasion for a new triumph. The fleet with which he had to contend, were anchored near the town of St. Domingo; they at first endeavoured to escape, but when they found that
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nem. con.
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[WATERFORD WRIT.]Mr. Secretary Fox
said, he wished that the deputy clerk of the crown should be called in, to be examined as to the non-arrival of the return for Waterford. A considerable time had now elapsed since the election had taken place, and yet he understood that the return was not yet received by the clerk of the crown. The return ought to have been forwarded the day after the election. In the present instance the delay was extraordinary, and there were surmises that it was not purely accidental. He gave notice, that If the return did not arrive before that day, he should, on Thursday, move that the sheriff of the county of Waterford be ordered to attend at the bar. The deputy clerk of the crown was then called in and examined. He said that the return had not been received by him. Mr. Fox then gave notice of a motion on Thursday
[DUBLIN PAVING BILL.] Mr. C. Wynne
moved the further consideration of the Dublin Paving bill.
General Loftus
complained of the hardship which the Paving board of Dublin suffered in consequence of the suspension by lord Hardwicke, and the stigma which that suspension attached to their character.
Mr. C. Wynne
begged gentlemen to understand that this bill did not at all affect the question between lord Hardwicke and the Paving board, as the object of this bill was to grant a certain sum of money for the paving, cleansing, and lighting of the streets of Dublin.
Lord De Blaquiere
spoke in favour of the Paving board, of which he was a member, and requested the house, before they passed this bill, to take time deliberately to ponder.
Mr. J. Latouche
vindicated the conduct of lord Hardwicke, who suspended the paving board in consequence of the report of a commission of enquiry; which report contained many and strong charges of malversation against that board. But this report would be soon laid before the house, and gentlemen would then be enabled to judge of lord Hardwicke's conduct, and of the character of those who complained of him.—The bill was ordered to be read second time this day three weeks.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 26.
[MINUTES.]
The 10,500,000
l
537
l
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 26.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Holford
brought in a bill for forming the Philanthropic Society into a Corporation, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a 2d time. Mr. Johnson, from the office of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, presented an account of all Offices granted in reversion in Ireland, with the periods for which granted, and the dates of the grants.—Mr. Rix, from the Excise Office, presented an?account of the Malt charged with duties for the two years ending 5th Jan. 1806.—Mr. Burdon brought in a bill for the better regulation of the admeasurement of Coals scaborne, which was read a first time.—Mr. Vansittart obtained leave to bring in a bill to empower the Commissioners of the Treasury in Ireland to issue Treasury Bills on the credit of the Supplies for the year.—General Tarleton gave notice of his intention on the day previous to the house adjourning for the Easter Holidays, to submit to the house a motion on the State of the Military Defence of the Country, particularly on the Defence Act, provided this subject Was not in the mean time taken up in another quarter.—Mr. Tierney mentioned that he wished to propose an alteration in the Treating bill, and would move that it should be committed now, printed as amended, and afterwards recommitted. The bill was accordingly committed, passed the committee, reported, ordered to be printed as amended, and to be re-committed on Monday the 21st of April.
[COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.]
On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the estimates of the charges of the establishment in New South Wales. the Plantations, &c. and the account of exchequer bills issued under an act of the 39–40 of George III. were ordered to be referred to the Committee of Supply. The house resolved itself into a committee. Previous to the first resolution being put, that a sum not exceeding 3 millions he granted to his majesty, for paying off exchequer bills,
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Mr. Vansittart
made several observations on the subject. He said that the Bank of England, with that liberality which distinguished all their proceedings, had expressed their willingness to extend the accommodation, on condition of receiving only 3 per cent. instead of 5, to which they were entitled. It was nevertheless necassary, as a point of form, to vote the present resolution.
Mr. Tierney
so far from thinking the conduct of the bank liberal, thought that nothing could be more illiberal. The bank lent this 3 millions to government for 6 years, without interest, as the price of their charter, which had been granted to them on terms which iii his opinion ought not to have been allowed. They now came and offered it at 3 per cent. and then talked of their great liberality, when it was well known that, owing to the restriction on the issuing of specie, and the substitution of bank-notes, they had not only not lost sixpence by this loan, but had been enabled to make very extraordinary profits, of which, indeed, they had boasted, and which certainly should have had the effect of rendering them a little more generous to those through whose means they had obtained them. This accommodation did not cost the bank one farthing beyond the paper on which the notes were printed. He did not object to the resolution, but he rose merely to state that the bank had driven a hard bargain, and made an ungrateful return to the country for the privileges that had been granted to them.
Mr. Vansittart
thought that the sacrifice of 60,000
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[CAPE OF GOOD HOPE.] Mr. Vansittart
it was impossible that the laurels which our moved the 3d reading of the bill for regulating the trade of the Cape of Good Hope.
Mr. W. Keene
supported the motion, making a number of observations, tending to shew his sense of the importance of that settlement, and the expediency of retaining it in our possession in the event of a peace.
Lord
Garlies
540
Lord Henry Petty
observed, that as none of his hon. Friends who were more immediately connected with the military department were present, he felt some difficulty in answering the noble lord's question. He was not aware that any motion, of the nature alluded to, was in agitation; and he had no hesitation in giving it as his opinion, that such a motion would be premature until the conquest had been completed.—It may seem paradoxical to say that this mode of increase is preferable to one more gradual and less alarming to the public. A gradual rise would have led to the supposition that this was a fund to be drawn upon to an idenfinite extent, but being raised at once to its nature limits, there will be less suspicion of future augmentation.
Lord Castlereagh rose
to submit to administration the propriety of proposing of proposing a vote of thanks to the gallant officers alluded to, Towards the close of the last war the thanks of the house were not delayed to the conquerors of Egypt until the conclusion of the campaign. In his apprehension the degree in which our troops had distinguished themselves on the opening of the business was sufficient to induce parliament to express a grateful sense of their conduct.
Lord Henry Petty
repeated that as the conquest was incomplete, such a vote would be premature.
General Tarleton
pressed the propriety of an immediate vote of thanks for the gallant services that had been rendered, and deprecated the idea of forbearing until the whole conquest was completed. Should a large body of the enemy land at the Cape, it was impossible that the laurels which our brave troops had gathered should be withered by that event; but they might be deprived of that honourable distinction which he was desirous should be conferred on them.
Lord Henry Petty
observed, that, instead of a conversation like the present, it would be better for any hon. gent. opposite, who wished, to bring forward a precise motion on the subject.—The bill was then read a 3d time and passed.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Mr. Whitbread
in consequence of the notice which he had given yesterday, rose to submit a motion to the house, respecting the trial of lord Melville. The hon. gent.
541
Mr. Robert Dundas (son of lord Melville)
said, the hon. gent. in waking his present motion must be aware that its effect would be, to necessitate the house of lords to address his majesty for having Westminster-hall fitted up for the purpose of their proceeding to the trial. That, however, being the case, he hoped he might be entitled to say a few words on the subject, by which he hoped to be able to make it appear, not only that such a step would lead to the highest inconvenience, but would, perhaps, be the source of gross injustice and oppression by the delay and expence which such a proceeding would produce. Whenever any question occurred in which it might be necessary for the house of lords to deliberate, all that would be required, if the trial proceeded in their own house, would be, for the managers, to retire till the question was discussed. But, if tine trial proceeded in Westminster-hall, the lords would be obliged, on every such occasion, to retire to their own house, and if they continued debating till near the usual hour of adjournment, there would be little chance of their returning to the hall that day. In this way it was a fact, that not less than two or three days of delay would take place in the one case for one in the other. He trusted he did not ask too much of the house in hoping, that in pursuit of justice they would not be guilty of oppression; that they would not adopt a mode of trial which would be vexatious. in point of time, and ruinous in point of expence. He thought the case of Mr. Hastings would have been sufficient to warn the house against the adoption of a proposition like the present. He had no doubt the managers would conduct the case. with all the
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Mr. Tierney
said, that when the house had at last come to the resolution of impeachment, he had trusted, that no farther question on the subject would have been introduced. He was far from wishing to say any thing that might hurt the feelings of lord Melville; and he could not help bearing his testimony to the strict propriety with which the hon. gent. who opposed the motion had conducted himself, during the whole course of the discussion; but he was confident the house could not hesitate to adopt the motion before them.
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Mr. Bankes
said, he could see nothing to persuade the house to do that in lord Melville's case, which it had found so inconvenient in that of Mr. Hastings. In the course of that trial the delay was disgraceful, and the expence intolerable. He had all along been against sending any accused person to be tried in Westminster-hall, if any other place could be found where the ends of justice could be obtained; and he had formerly contended against taking this case from the ordinary course of law. He was sorry when the house had come to a different determination; but he still hoped, that they would not adopt that mode of trial, which, in the case of Mr. Hastings, had done them no credit. Every end of justice would be fully answered by a trial at the bar of the lords, while the solemnity, the dignity, and decorum requisite on such an occasion, were liable to be interrupted in the promiscuous assemblage at Westminster-hill. Was the case of lord Macclesfield of less importance than the present? Were the feelings of the public less interested by it, and less roused on
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Lord Folkestone
contended, that it was unfair to contrast the trial of Mr. Hastings with that of lord Macclesfield, or to ascribe the great length of the former to the time consumed in the forms attendant on such a mode of trial. It was owing to very different circumstances; to the variety of the charges brought against him, and the complicated nature of the evidence by which they were supported. It was a principle of the constitution, that all trials should be conducted in as public and open a manner as possible; and surely, this principle operated with the greatest force in the case of an impeachment. It certainly could not be held so public at the bar of the house of lords, for there the space below the bar was so small that it would not accommodate the committee of this house. With respect to the expence, he believed it would be found less than gentlemen conceived. A great deal depended, in his opinion, upon parade and show; as useful and salutary lessons might be drawn from the solemnity of the scene. As to the objection, of its inter-
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Lord Henry Petty
said, that though he differed in opinion from the hon. gent. who had preceded the noble lord, yet he was not surprised at the arguments he had advanced. He had originally opposed the mode of trial by impeachment, and might therefore be consistent now in resisting a trial in Westminster-hall; but to hear those who had preferred impeachment, from the consideration of the rank of lord Melville, and the nature of the offence with which he was charged, concur in the arguments of the hon. gent., and opposing now the ancient and constitutional mode of conducting that impeachment, was rather extraordinary. The hon. gent. had said, that the trial of Mr. Hastings reflected disgrace on the house. He, for his part, was not aware of any such disgrace, though he had heard it had been attended with much inconvenience. The present case, he said, differed widely from that of Mr. Hastings. Here all the charges, and all the evidence adduced in their support, bore distinctly on one point. He contended, that if the house did not agree to the motion of his hon. friend, it would amount to declaration, that all the ancient and constitutional forms of impeachment were impracticable. The expence attendant on this mode of trial had been stated as an objection against it. It was not the expence of paper that might be consumed, or of benches that might be erected, but the want of those constitutional enquiries into misapplications of the public money, that could ever prove ruinous to the country. The danger of the country was great; the danger which now impended over its finances would be the result, not of enquiries, but from neglect of attention to those constitutional prosecutions, which are at once the protection of the public, and the surest means of guarding its purse. The hon. gent., had stated the situation of the noble lord as being peculiar. So indeed was the situation of the public. It will be my lot, said the noble lord, and arduous will the lot be, to propose in a few days a large augmentation of the public burthens. If I may be allowed to feel more than any other man the importance of convincing the public that their money is rightly applied, and that their burthens should not
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Mr. Rose
declared that he was one of those who preferred the mode of trial by impeachment in preference to that in the court of King's Bench, because he thought the peculiar situation and dignity of the noble lord required it: but he was also of opinion that the object of the house would be much better and more effectually attained by prosecuting at the bar of the house of lords, than by proceeding with tedious forms and ceremonies in Westminster-hall. In advancing that opinion, he was supported by the result of the trial of lord Macclesfield, which was concluded in 21 days from its commencement. With this precedent on the one side in favour of the trial at the bar of their lordships, and that of Mr. Hastings against a trial at Westminster-hall, he thought that few men could hesitate to make a choice, or decide which mode was more eligible. His reason for thinking that the trial at the bar of the lords would be more public was, that every person might go into the house of lords, when the doors were open, without special permission; but every member in the house must know, that no person but a member of either house of parliament could attend the proceedings at Westminster-hall, without the
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Lord H. Petty
in explanation, said, that he had not spoken in gloomy language of the financial prospects of the country. He had said, that the country could only be ruined by a want of principle in those who directed its resources.
Mr. Whitbread
said, he felt a due sense of the decorous conduct of the hon. gent. who commenced the debate, and should be ready to take every opportunity of acknowledging it. The hon. member had, as it were, put himself on the mercy of the house and entreated it not to adopt a mode of proceeding which would be harassing and oppressive to the noble person who stood accused. He assured the hon. gent., that he would be the last man in the house who would support any proceeding of that description; it was not in the contemplation of himself or the managers; and he could also undertake to say, that it was as little the intention of the other members of the house, with whom he had the honour of acting, to press lord Melville to a trial, vexatious or harassing, but it was their intention as well as their duty, to carry on proceedings against that noble lord with the solemnity and notoriety which had distinguished this country on such occasions from every other in Europe and tended so essentially to establish its fame. If the hon. gentlemen on the opposite side pushed their arguments, the consequence would be, that they must desire parliament and the country to get rid of all public trials, to exclude audiences from the very courts of justice, and, in fine, from every place in which the laws of the country were to be administered. But he differed from the hon. gent. in this respect, and thought that publicity was necessary in trials of every kind, and the best guard for the security of persons and property, as well as for the discharge of great public trusts. It was a little singular, however, that in this particular case the mode was the choice of the noble lord's friends; for
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Mr. W. Dundas
said that he had listened in vain with a view to hear any essential reason of justice or expediency urged, why the trial should take place in Westminster-hall rather than at the bar of the house of lords. He did not say that there ought to be no impeachment; but he contended that it was of the essence of justice that it should not be dilatory nor unnecessarily expensive. Every person, as an hon. friend of his had observed, was to be presumed innocent till he was found guilty. He therefore, for the present, presumed that lord Melville was innocent; and in this view, the mode of proceeding now proposed would bring the punishment of guilt on an innocent person. He did not consider this as a party question, but asked, whether it was just, or generous that a person who, setting the present affair aside, had rendered essential service to the country, and was therefore entitled to its gratitude, should, by the enormous expence to which he would be exposed, be consigned for the remainder of his life to want and poverty? The noble lord (H. Petty), and the hon. gent. who spoke last, had adverted to the old mode of proceeding, and to the trial of Mr. Hastings; but was there a lawyer in Westminster-hall who did not consider that trial as an abominable disgrace? The Judge Advocate (Mr. Bond), in proposing a criminal information, had argued respecting this abomination, this foul stigma, with the greatest eloquence. Why was he not here to-day to support his argument? He concluded by again asking, whether it was consistent with justice or generosity to bring a load of expence on the shoulders of the accused, which, whether innocent or guilty, would weigh him down to the earth?
Mr. Perceval
said, that if any one circumstance had been mentioned which could prove that the trial should take place in Westminster-hall rather than at the bar of the house of lords, then indeed he might perhaps have been silent; but as none such had been mentioned, he trusted the house would be open to receive any impressions that might be expected to be made by the
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then
now
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Mr. Secretary Fox rose
to trouble the house only with a few words. But something which fell from the hon. and learned gent. who spoke last, induced him to trespass on their attention for a moment. That hon. and learned gent. had charged him, and those who agreed with him in thinking that lord Melville ought to be brought to trial, with inconsistency, in voting first for an impeachment, and then for a criminal information. They had done so undoubtedly; but under what circumstances? The house would keep in mind, that the question then was between them and those who opposed all criminal proceedings whatever, and who strained every nerve in order to prevent any sort of trial. He had then stated the reasons which induced him to act as he had done. But as the hon. and learned gent. had thought proper to say nothing about them, and possibly might have forgot them, he would state them again. If the pure question had been whether there was to be an impeachment, or a criminal information? he would have preferred an impeachment. But when he saw that the motion for an impeachment was lost by a majority, hollow as it was, he had no alternative but to adopt a less eligible, mode of proceeding, rather than have none at all. But how was that majority procured? Why; by the union of two parties, one of which endeavoured to stop all proceedings. The two gentlemen, relations of lord Melville, who brought forward and supported this proposition, were certainly justifiable in what they did. Nobody could be more alive to the sympathy of relationship, or of friendship, than he was; but at the same time he must say, that they were not exactly the persons whose directions were to be followed in this instance. How did the case stand? A motion was made for a criminal information, and at the time it was pretty plainly insinuated that this was the mode which, on account of the comparative smallness of the expence, the accused would prefer; but afterwards it appeared that lord Melville, upon re-consideration, with all the disadvantage of the additional exnence, preferred the mode of impeachment, But was
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Mr. Canning
said, that after the speech of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox), and when it was considered how much warmth he had thrown into that speech, he scarcely knew what course he had to take. If it was decided that the strong arm of government was to fall upon lord Melville, perhaps it would be as well if gentlemen on that side of the house were to hold their tongues altogether. The right hon. gent. besides imputing to them the greatest inconsistency, seemed to consider, that every argument which came from them should be received with the greatest suspicion. The hon. gent. had also stated, that it, was impossible that those who voted for the impeachment could have then in their contemplation that such impeachment would be regulated by the precedent of lord Macclesfield's case, rather than by that of the other precedents of impeachments in Westminster-hall. It, however, was natural that they should look to that case, which was the only one cited at that time. As for himself, he trusted that his assertion would deserve as much weight as the general assertion of any other gentleman; and he must declare that he had this case in his contemplation when he voted for the impeachment. The right hon. gent. had expressed surprise that they did not look to the last precedent, that of the trial of Mr, Hastings. That was a case of which not only the public opinion, but parliament it self, had pronounced upon, when it appointed a new judicature to try offences of that nature in future. As to the authority of arguments being lessened when coming from relations or private friends, he thought there should be full as great a diminution from their authority when they came from persons of a contrary description. For example, a noble lord (Henry Petty) had held nearly the following language: "You feel disposed o shelter lord Melville as
555
Mr. Whitbread
in explanation, said, that when he had cited the case of lord Macclesfield, he only meant to shew, that impeaehments were not necessarily attended with great delay; but as a right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) had mentioned what was in his contemplation, he should also mention what passed in his; he had intended originally to move, that the impeachment should be in Westminster-hall, and had mentioned it to the late Mr. Pitt, who made no objection to it.
Mr. C. W. Wynne
supported the motion on constitutional grounds. Impeachment was the best mode of proceeding, and it was proper to have it as open as possible. The house of lords might be thrown open, but few could get in. He expressed his surprise at the logic of some hon. gentlemen. Because Mr. Hastings's trial had lasted eight sessions, did it follow that all trials conducted in the same way were to last an equal time? The great delay that took place on that occasion might be attributed to other causes. In an impeachment, the house of lords had the right of chusing the days of trial, and adjourning it as they pleased; and during the trial of Mr. Hastings, there was one year in which but four days were appointed for the trial.
Mr Wallace
said, he was one of those who from the beginning, disapproved of the prosecution of lord Melville, and who thought there had not been a sufficient ground of accusation made out against him. His opinion was unaltered; but since the trial was resolved on, he thought the great object at present was, that speedy justice should be done, and with as little vexation as possible, to the party who was the object of the trial. The proceeding itself inflicted a very severe penalty on the defendant, and would draw down the punishment of guilt upon the head of a person who might be innocent. As to the arguments that had been relied on, of the superior publicity and solemnity of the trial at Westminster-hall, they made but little impression on his mind. He did not consider the publicity of a trial to depend entirely upon the number of persons who Were present at it. The proceedings of the court of King's Bench had, as he thought, sufficient publicity, and yet that court was
556
Mr. Grey
could not exactly understand what the hon. gent. meant by his concluding observation; for whether the trial was in Westminster-hall, or at the bar of the house of lords, lord Ellenborough would in either case have the same right as a peer of parliament, and nothing more. As to parliament having shewn its disapprobation to the impeachment of Mr. Hastings, by establishing an East-India judicature, he must observe, that that appointment was made in 1784, whereas the impeachment of Mr. Hastings began in 1788; and, if parliament meant to shew disapprobation to impeachments, it would not merely have created an East-India judicature, but a general judicature for trying offences which were fonnerly tried by impeachment. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Caning) had spoken of "the strong arm of government being directed against lord Melville." He should have recollected, whether on a former occasion, and when he was connected with administration, "the strong arm of government" had not been exerted to withdraw lord Melville from justice, and to protect him from the charges which the house had brought against him. But how was it that government could now be said to use their power? They only wished to give the greatest publicity to the trial, and publicity had always been supposed the best defence of the subject against the strong arm of government. He thought the general question had been amply discussed; and should only observe, that the difference of expence between the trial at Westminster-hall, and at the bar, would be to the defendant nothing near what had been suggested in the course of the debate,—The motion was then put and carried.
557
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 27.
[INSOLVENT DEBTORS.] Lord Holland,
adverting to the petitions on the table from the debtors confined in different prisons observed, that he had hitherto declined to bring forward any measure upon this subject, from a consciousness that he was unequal to the task. The unfortunate situation, however, in which many of his majesty's subjects were placed by being confined for debt, would not allow him to delay bringing forward a bill for their relief He therefore gave notice that he should, next week, bring in a bill of that description in the form which had several times been sanctioned by their lordships for the relief of Insolvent Debtors. After the bill had been read a first time, he intended to give a very short notice of the 2d reading.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Mr. Whitbread,
and several other members of the house of commons, brought up a message, purporting that the house should attend the trial of lord viscount Melville, in a committee of the whole house, and requiring accommodation to be provided for them.
Lord Grenville
said, it was perfectly clear that accommodation for the whole house of commons could not be provided in that house; the only mode therefore to be adopted in consequence of the message from the commons was to address his majesty, praying him to provide a place for the trial of lord Melville. There were other points also relative to the trial, to which he wished to call their lordships' attention. It was of the utmost importance that, in the progress of the trial, all unnecessary delay should be sedulously avoided. It was due to the prosecutors as well as to the noble lord impeached, that justice should be attained as speedily as possible. It was due to the prosecutors that justice should be done without delay, if the defendant were guilty; it was equally due to the defendant that the expences of his defence should not, in case of an acquittal, amount to or exceed any fine which could be imposed upon him, if he were guilty. Those complaints, so justly founded, which were made against the delay attendant upon the trial of Mr. Hastings, ought, in this case, to be carefully avoided. Impressed with these considerations, he intended to move, when his majesty's answer to the address should be received, to refer to the committee already appointed to search for
558
Earl Stanhope
stated, that he was one of those noble lords who attended during the long trial of Mr. Hastings, during which he could not avoid perceiving that there was often a lamentable waste of their lordships' time. He trusted that the delays which had then occurred would serve as warnings to their lordships on the present occasion. He would venture to suggest one regulation, from which he thought much benefit would be derived: upon the trial of Mr. Hastings, it was customary for the house, whenever any objections upon points of evidence arose, to immediately adjourn for the day to the parliament chamber. Now he thought it very practicable and reconcileable to the strictest forms of proceeding, that their lordships should receive the objection, and proceed (if the progress of the cause did not essentially depend upon it), to determine the point next day, or at some convenient opportunity, without impeding the course of the proceedings. The
559
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 27.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Irving
from the office of the inspector-general of Exports and Imports, brought up an account of Imports and Exports from Tortola.—Mr.Johnson, from the office of the chief sec. in Ireland, brought up an account of the woollen yarn imported into that kingdom for a certain period. —Mr. Hase, from the bank, brought up an account of the amount of Exchequer bills issued under the act for renewing the Bank Charter, and an account of those that were still unprovided for. —Mr. Roberts, from the office of the Paymaster-General of his majesty's forces, brought up an account of the sums drawn from the exchequer for the service of the year 1805, and of the balances remaining in the hands of the Paymaster on the 5th of Jan. 1806.—Mr. Vansittart brought in a bill for farther continuing an act for encouraging the Fisheries, &c. Also a bill to enable the commissioners of the treasury in Ireland, to issue Treasury bills, on the credit of the aids of the year. —Mr. Huskisson moved for an account of the amount of the arrears, as far as they can be collected, on the Property Tax, for the years ending the 5th of April 1804, and the 5th of. April 1805, respectively. —Mr. Fellowes moved for a committee to examine and consider the returns respecting the Non-resident. Clergy, presented to the house on the 17th inst, and to report thereon. —Mr. Whitbread reported, that he had taken to the lords their message of last night, requesting them to provide accommodations for that house, in Westminster-hall, at the trial of lord viscount Melville. —Mr. Giles observed that the accounts laid before the house, of the expences of the commissioners for regulating the civil affairs of the Navy, were defective. He therefore moved, "that there be laid before the house, an account particularly specifying the several items composing the sum of 10,000
l
l
560
[MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS.] Mr. Yorke,
pursuant to notice, rose for the purpose of moving for certain documents relative to the operation of the bill called the Levy en Masse bill, to which he understood none of his majesty's ministers intended to object; and when he stated his purpose, he trusted that the house would be of opinion it would be both desirable and necessary, that those documents should be before them preparatory to bringing forward, the plan of national defence understood to be now in the contemplation of his majesty's ministers, and which it was to be hoped would be brought forward at some period or other, in the fullness of time. By this bill, which had passed in the year 1803, it was intended, as one of the modes of defence against the menaced invasion, to call out so much of the population of the country as were capable of bearing arms; who were to be divided into three classes, and, first, to be enrolled; secondly, trained to arms, during every month of October; and, thirdly, rendered useful for any military purpose to which they might be respectively judged fitting. With respect to the dangers of invasion, he was persuaded that, if our navy continued those gallant and victorious exertions, the many eminent instances of which had been displayed of late, there was not much chance of an attack of that nature. Upon the former occasion, though the government had made some progress in availing itself of the powers by this bill vested, yet as it was. disposed to prefer a voluntary to a compulsory service on the part of the people, and as so great a number of men pressed voluntarily forward, beyond all calculation of expectancy, the government, therefore, preferred the services of the volunteers to a forcible levy en masse; not, however, totally abandoning the alternative of the bill, should it be necessary to carry its operation into effect. He had in his hand, a copy of the returns made from every quarter of the country, in the first year, of the number of men in each district, properly classed; and what he now wished to move for was, the returns of the years 1804 and 1805. He hoped his majesty's ministers had those documents before them, as they certainly would be important for the consideration of the, house in discussing the
561
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that so far was he from being averse to the production of the documents now moved for by the hon. gent. that he should support his motion. The subject was so very new to his own experience, that he knew very little indeed of the present state of the matter. However, as the bill had been passed now three years, and his majesty's present ministers had been so short a time in office, if any remissness or delay was chargeable in procuring those returns for the last two years, their share of the blame certainly was not the largest. He was pretty confident that the subject of the right hon. gent.'s motion would from a very principal feature in the plan of defence now in the contemplation of his right hon. friend, not now in his place, (Mr. Windham), who was certainly as anxious to bring his plan forward, and felt as much regret for the unavoidable delay that had occurred, as any other member of that house. As to the objects of his right hon. friend's plan, he should think it premature to say more at present; but he could assure the house, that no delay had occurred that was at all avoidable, and he hoped that in a very few days his right hon. friend would be able to bring his plan forward.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
hoped the right hon. gent. would not bring forward his plan without timely notice. Indeed, as it had not come forward sooner, and so considerable a number of gentlemen must be absent during the assizes, who would wish to be present at the discussion of such a measure, he thought it would be desirable to postpone it till after the recess.
Mr. Fox
expressed his hope, that his right hon. friend would be able, in his place tomorrow, to give notice of the day on which he should be ready to bring his plan forward,
562
[WATERFORD WRIT.] Mr Secretary Fox,
pursuant to his notice on a former day, moved, that the deputy clerk of the crown be ordered forthwith to attend at the bar of the house. Upon his appearance, Mr. Fox moved, that he be asked whether any return had been made to him by the returning officers for the election at Waterford, in consequence of the writ last issued for the election of a representative for that city? The question being answered in the negative,
Mr. Fox
moved, that the sheriffs of Waterford do attend at the bar of the house on Monday fortnight.
Mr. Lee,
with great deference to the right hon, gent., begged leave to suggest, that although delay had occurred in the necessary return, still, on enquiry, it might turn out that no blame justly attached any where, and that the delay might be owing to sonic cause wholly different from either neglect or intention on the part of the sheriffs. He begged leave to observe therefore, that as a previous enquiry had been directed to the clerk of the hanaper here, it might also be expedient to direct a similar enquiry to the clerk of the crown and hanaper in Ireland, to ascertain whether any return had been made to his office by the sheriffs of Waterford, before those gentlemen were put under the necessity of performing a journey of six hundred miles, upon a business on which it might turn out they were not culpable.
Mr. Fox
most readily acquiesced in the suggestion of the hon. gent; withdrew his motion, and substituted another, that the clerk of the Crown and Hanaper in Ireland, be directed to communicate forthwith, whether any return had been made to him, in answer to the writ to him directed for the election of a member for Waterford, and at what time such return was made?" The right hon. gent. at the same time, intimated, that if it should appear, that any great or extraordinary delay had occurred before the making of such re
563
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 28.
[MINUTES.]
The Ten Million and a Half and One Million and a Half Exchequer Bills' bills, the Spirits Excise Duties bill, and the Felons' Transportation bill, were read a third time and passed, and a message sent to the commons, to acquaint them there with.—Mr. Hawthorne brought up the Expiring Laws bill, the Cape of Good Hope Trade Regulation bill, which were severally read a first time.—Lord Grenville presented a message from the king, purporting that on account of the eminent services performed by vice-admiral sir John T. Duckworth, bart. his majesty is desirous of granting to him a pension of one thousand pounds per annum, for the term of his natural life, and trusts the house will concur in any measure necessary to carry such his majesty's intention into execution. On the motion of lord Grenville, his majesty's message was ordered to be taken into consideration on Monday, to which day the house adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 28.
[Minutes.]
The Sheriffs of London presented a petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council, against the Coal Admeasurement bill, as touching on their right of Metage.—Mr. Briggs, from the Commissioners of Naval Revision, presented an Account of the intended application of 20,000
l
564
d
l
[Budget.]
On the motion of lord H Petty, the house went into a Committee of Ways and Means, to which the several public accounts presented this day were referred.
Lord Henry Petty rose
he said, to state to the house the Supplies which it would be proper to vote for the current year, and the ways and means to meet those supplies. The duty imposed on him he felt to be extremely arduous, and one which he was convinced he should be wholly unfit to execute, unless he had the indulgence of the house, In submitting the statement he had to lay before the house, he proposed to go into no length of observation of speculation, not only from an unwillingness to detain the house, but because there could be very little comparative importance attached to his conclusions, compared with the facts which he should open to the committee. But the same motive that made him sparing of observations of his own, induced him to wish as far as the
565
l
l
l
l
l
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l
l
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l
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l
l
566
l
l
l
l
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l
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567
l
l
l
SUPPLY.
The first head then, is the Navy, exclusive of Sea Service
£
15,281,000
Army
18,500,000
Here, though I am not able to state the amount of the sums that will be required on this head, owing to the arrangements not being yet completed; I am happy to think, that there is every reason to believe, that if approved by the house they will not exceed the sum I have stated, or the amount of the Estimates on the scale voted for a limited period; or if they should, a saving may be expected on some other head.
Ordnance—England, including Sea Service
£3,911,000
Ireland
807,000
4,718,000
Miscellaneous—England
1,500,000
Ireland
670,000
2,170,000
On this head of expence, however, which must appear considerable, it is right to state, that there are included several important grants in contemplation—such as the provision for the family of lord Nelson, and for the remuneration of our Seamen; objects, which I am sure will be a sufficient justification of the expence they may occasion.
568
Arrears of subsidies
1,000,000
Vote of Credit—England
1,400,000
Ireland
600,000
2,000,000
Making the joint supply
43,669,000
Add, however, separate charges of England.
To the East-India Company
1,000,000
This claim is of several yrs. Standing. A Commission had been appointed to investigate the demand of the company, in 1803; a million was voted, and also last year, and in Autumn, it was understood by the Company, that another million would this year be proposed to be voted.
There is also a deficiency of Malt, 1804
340,000
Ditto, Ways and Means of 1805
1,707,000
Interest on Exchequer Bills
1,000,000
It may be proper to say a few words in explanation of that article. It arises from the method pursued of issuing. Exchequer Bills bearing a certain interest. It has not hitherto been usual to provide the interest at the time the bills are voted, but it comes into the supply of the following year. It has been thought advisable, however, to bring that expence within the year, and provided for it accordingly.
There is called for, also, a sum of 700,000
l
l
1,200,000
5,247,000
Total supplies,
48,916,000
Deduct for Ireland 2-17ths of 43,669,000
l
5,137,528
Also 2-17ths for Civil List and other Charges
160,000
5,297,528
Remains, on account of England
43,618,472
WAYS AND MEANS.
The noble lord said he would next proceed to state the Ways and Means. In the first place there were the Malt and Personal Estate Duties which he took at 2,750,000
l
l
569
l
l
l
Malt and personal Estate Duties
£.
2,750,000
Grants from proceeds of Ships captured prior to the War
1,000,000
Lottery
380,000
Surplus Consolidated Fund to 5th April, 1807
3,500,000
War Taxes
19,500,000
Deduct as likely to be outstanding at 5th Apr., 1807
1,500,000
18,000,000
Loan
18,000,000
43,630,000
The loan he had made this morning was for 20,000,000
l
l
l
l
l
For the East-India Company
£.1,000,000
Deficiency of the Malt Duty
340000
Deficiency of Ways and Means
1707000
Interest of Exchequer Bills
1000000
To pay off arrears of 5 per Cents. for 1796
1200000
Making in the whole
5247000
Having stated the Ways and Means, he should go somewhat more into explanation. First, as to the war taxes, he held documents which would enable him to state the rise and progress of the war taxes. The causes of that rise were such as justified the house in carrying them as far as the patriotism of the public would render them productive. In 1798, the right hon. gent. who had preceded him in office, had thought it necessary to have recourse to the principle of raising a considerable part of the supplies within the year. It was needless to go through the various modes on which this principle applied, or to recall the efforts made under the name of the Assessed Taxes, Income Tax, or, more recently, the Property Tax. But, to enable the house to judge of the general expediency of continuing those efforts, he should state what
570
l
l,
l
l
PROPERTY TAX.
This, said his lordship, I propose to carry at once to 10 per cent. It may seem paradoxical to say, that this mode of increase is preferable to one more gradual, and less alarming to the public. Such, however, is my opinion. A gradual rise would have led to the supposition that this was a fund to be drawn upon to an indefinite extent, but being raised at once to its natural limit, there will be less suspicion of future augmentation. Besides the addition to the rate, I am persuaded that considerable addition may be made to the produce by judicious regulation. That there have been fraud and evasion in the payment, cannot be doubted, and the mode of exemption has furnished the greatest facility to the attempt. But notwithstanding the diminution of the produce through that cause, I should have been sorry to have deprived of exemption those who have a fair claim to it. But, still exemption and relief will be extended to those who most stand in need of it, while the means of evasion will be taken away. The classes most worthy of being considered, with a view to relief, are small tradesmen and small annuitants, in whose favour some provision will be made. It is proposed then that 10 per cent. shall be paid on all property above 50l. a year, but on pro
571
CUSTOMS AND EXCISE.
Another million is expected front the Customs and Excise; and this source will be the more agreeable, seeing that it is derived chiefly from the enjoyments of the higher classes. It is proposed, with certain modifications and exceptions, to raise the war duties of the Customs from one fourth to one third. Tobacco will be taxed under the Excise. Certain woods coining under this branch are to be exempted. An addition will be made to the duty on sugar of 3 shillings additional per cwt. As this tax has continued progressively to increase, and from its bulk and perishable nature cannot easily be smuggled, there is little doubt that with the addition it will be productive. The Customs then I take at 700,000
l
l
Total—Custom and Excise
£.1,000,000
Property Tax
5,000,000
6,000,000
THE LOAN.
Next follows the Loan contracted for this
572
For every 100
l
£.60
7
6
66 Three per cents Reduced 59 ⅜
39
3
9
99
11
3
Amount of Discount on prompt payment
3
10
0
103
1
3
So that the Interest paid by the public is under 5 per cent. being .4 19 7
To cover the interest, one per cent, sinking fund, charges, &c. on this loan, a sum of 1,136,000
l
I propose to render the Wine Duty already existing, permanent and applicable towards the interest of the Loan, which will give
£.500,000
A Duty on Pig Iron of 40s. per ton. This tax was formerly in contemplation, and as the object is now greatly extended in use, and as 200,000 tons was the quantity then manufactured, I apprehend that the quantity may be estimated at 250,000 tons, which at 40s. will be
500,000
Upon this head there will be counter vailing Duties on Foreign Iron, and a fair drawback will be allowed, This tax will be under the Excise.
The third object is, a Regulation of the Duties on Tea. Formerly it was intended, for the relief of the lower classes, that no tea supposed to be used by them should fall under the tax. But the fact is, either that the lower classes, preferring a better article, do not buy the inferior kind, or the venders mix it, so defrauding both government and their customers, the inferior tea is not sold. The Equalization of the Duties on Tea is expected to produce
70,000
Next I propose, that, as there is a considerable Tax on Auctions, there should be a Tax on Appraisements; both these modes being adopted, to give the highest value that can be procured to objects sold. I estimate this tax at
66,000
One-half the Duty on Auctions.
Total
1,136,000
CIVIL LIST.
Before I sit down, I am desirous to make a few observations respecting the expenses of the Civil List, amounting, on the 5th of January, 1806, to 158,000
l
573
RECAPITULATION.
In order to bring the whole of the subject under one view, I will trespass so far upon the indulgence of the house, as to recapitulate the several details both of the Supplies and the Ways and Means; and first I will state the supplies, consisting of the following items:—
SUPPLIES.
NAVY, exclusive of the Ordnance Sea
Service
£. 15,281,000
ARMY
England
18,500,000
Ireland
ORDNANCE
England, includg
3,911,000
Ireland
807,000
4,718,000
MISCELLANEOUS
Eng-
1,500,000
Ireland
670,000
2,170,000
Arrears of Subsidies
1,000,000
41,669,000
Vote of Credit
Eng-
1,400,000
Ireland
600,000
2,000,000
Joint Charge, England and Ireland
43,669,000
Add England's separate Charges:
1,000,000
Deficiency Malt Duty,
340,000
Ditto Ways and Means,
1,707,000
Interest on Exchequer bills
1,000,000
To pay off 5l. per
700,000
Ditto 10th Oct.
500,000
1,200,000
5,247,000
Total Supplies
48,916,000
Deduct, on account of Ireland as below,
5,297,528
On account of England.
43,618,472
Deduct, on account of Ire-
5,137,528
Deduct also 2-17ths, for
160,000
5,297,528
WAYS AND MEANS.
Malt and Personal Estate Duties
2,750,000
Grants from Proceeds of Ships cap-
1,000,000
Lottery
380,000
574
Surplus of Consolidated Fund to 5th
3,500,000
War Taxes
19,500,000
Deduct, as likely to be
1,500,000
18,000,000
Loan
18,000,000
£.43,630,000
After this recapitulation, said the noble lord, I have to express my sincere wish that I could follow up this statement by adding, that the burthens which I have now felt it my duty to propose are light; but, as I do not think so, I will not so represent them. At the same time, I should think ill of myself by thinking meanly of my country, if I could entertain a doubt that they will be supported with that constancy and fortitude, which are the most distinguished features in the character of any country, but which I may venture to say are prominent in this. I feel myself justified in stating, that if the people of this country would have borne these burthens with cheerfulness formerly, they have now additional motives to do so— now that we are placed in a crisis of our affairs— now that by the failure of our hopes from the co-operation of allies on the Continent, we are left to our own resources and to our own exertions. In such a moment, the people of this country will call forth all their energy, and shew themselves equal to any difficulties with which they may have to contend. As they feel too that they will be called upon to bear those burthens only so long as the war is necessary, so they must know that if it is necessary the contest involves in it every thing they hold dear as individuals and as a nation. They will bear these burthens the more cheerfully too, feeling a confidence that what they contribute will be strictly applied and economically administered to the purposes for which it is given. They know that if any set of men ever were pledged to economical government, it is the present ministers, and if they swerve from that pledge, they. must retire from office, carrying with them their own condemnation and disgrace. The public, however, feel this confidence, both from the character of the present ministers and from the benefits lately derived from enquiry, particularly from the labours of the naval commissioners. These things infuse confidence into the people, and they will support ministers in the economy they wish
575
Mr. Francis,
after some compliments to the noble lord (Henry Petty), and acknowledgements of the industry and ability he had shewn, and the perspicuity with which he had stated a detail of topics so intricate and so extensive, for all which he gave him the highest credit, proceeded as follows:—Mr. Speaker; there are two material passages, in the excellent speech of my noble friend, on which I cannot retrain from making a few very short remarks;
576
577
gradatim
per saltum,
Lord Henry Petty
thanked the hon. gent. for the partiality he had been pleased to express, and he felt it his duty, in answer to what had fallen from the hon. gent. respecting the conduct of the bank directors, to say, that the directors certainly acknowledged an application made to them by the right hon. gent. whom he had the honour to succeed, to induce them to receive the duties upon the dividends in their hands; which they declined, because in the situation where in they stood they had objections very natural for them to entertain; but, in answer to the application lately made to them, they condidly stated, that they saw so much evasion and un-
578
Mr. Rose
acknowledged the very clear and satisfactory statement brought forward by the noble lord, and said it was not his intention to oppose his taxes; there was but one of them to which he had any special ground of objection: and had the noble lord contented himself with the eulogies he chose to bestow upon himself and his friends, he should not have risen to say a single word; but in answer to what had fallen from the noble lord towards the latter end of his speech, in the censure he had endeavoured to cast upon his majesty's late ministers, for a system of fraud, perjury, and peculation, which he alledged to have existed in the West Indies, unchecked and unpunished by those ministers, as if suffered to continue with their privity and acquiescence, he must beg to be indulged in a short reply. It had happened to himself, when a member of the late administration, to have been the first to detect those frauds and peculations, and he lost not one moment in the speediest endeavours to bring the perpetrators to condign punishment; as could be proved by the evidence on the table of that house. He had brought in a bill for the appointment of special commissioners, who were dispatched to the West Indies, to make strict enquiry into those frauds and abuses, in order to the punishment of the offenders, and to the attainment of restitution for the public. Those commissioners had transmitted home their reports, from time to time, to his majesty's government, who immediately committed them to the law advisers of the crown, in order to the speediest possible institution of such legal proceedings as they should deem most expedient for the objects in view. Why they were not brought to justice, it was not for
579
Lord Henry Petty
observed, that if the only part of his speech to which the right hon. gent. objected was that in which he had spoken of the frauds arid peculations in the West Indies, and the publicity intended to be observed in the public accounts,
conceiving him on those points to have cast a censure upon his majesty's late ministers, he. begged leave to disclaim any such design. He had never once named his majesty's late ministers in the course of his speech, nor should he be disposed to speak
580
Mr. Rose
referred the noble lord to the act of parliament, to see what had been done to check the abuses complained of.
Lord Henry Petty
replied, that the object of the act had not been attained.
Mr. Perceral
observed, that although the noble lord had made no direct charge against his majesty's late ministers, there was in the tenour of his speech a pretty broad insinuation against their conduct; that the public were more ready to bear an increase of burthens on the present occasion than before; and that the fraudulent transactions in the West Indies had continued by something like negligence or connivance: and the noble lord said this in such a way, as he must feel called for some answer. With respect to the West-India subject, he was ready to vouch for the statement made by his right hon. friend. He was extremely glad to hear from the noble lord, that proceedings had been instituted to bring those delinquents to justice; but he apprehended, from the nature of the reports he had seen, it would be extremely difficult so to do. With respect to the other parts of the noble lord's statement, he agreed with the hon. member who spoke second in the debate, that it was clear and satisfactory to the house; but there were some parts of it, on which he did not mean to urge any discussion now, but should barely mention, by way of putting in his claim to investigate them on a future day.
581
pro forma
Lord H Petty
repeated the statements he before made of estimates of the supply and Ways and Means, to shew that the latter did not exceed the former in the proportion mentioned by the learned gent. The tax upon appraisements, he said, would be raised by a stamp duty; and, he admit-that the state of the auction duty was worthy of great consideration. The circumstance of first setting up things to sale, then buying them in, and afterwards disposing of them by private contract, he was sensible of being a great source of frauds upon the revenue.
Mr. Perceval
suggested, as one remedy for this, to deprive the principal of all right to become himself a bidder. He then once more reverted to the impropriety of voting Ways and Means beyond the supply, which, he said, was repugnant to the constitutional principle of not laying unnecessary burthens upon the people. He also suggested, that, as the exchequer bills
582
Mr. Rose
contended that they should not even be proposed to the house, till the supplies were known.
Mr. Secretary Fox
admitted that the Ways and Means ought not to exceed the supply, but contended that the object was to prevent government from raising money by Ways and Means till the house had an opportunity of recognizing the necessity of the supply. The war taxes, as had been stated by the noble lord, were regularly voted for the service of the year. The surplus, if any, might be properly applied to different services; for instance, to the sinking fund. But his noble friend would take care that the Ways and Means should not exceed the supplies to be voted. He admitted, however, that there was considerable inconvenience in bringing forward the Ways and, Means before the estimates for the army were regularly before the house, and it was one which ought as much as possible to be avoided. But the same sort of inconvenience was felt last year in the vote with regard to the subsidies, the amount of which depended upon treaties with foreign powers, which at that time were not in great forwardness, But though he admitted the inconvenience, he denied that there was any thing in this proceeding which counteracted any fixed principle. The inconvenience of delaying the bringing forward of the budget till the army estimates could be regularly produced, would, however, have been greater than the one under which they at present laboured, and government had only the choice between the two. Now, with regard to the words of his noble friend respecting the frauds and abuses in the West Indies, he must say that he was taken up in a very hasty manner. He had heard him perfectly, but had no idea that he had brought any charge against the late administration. He had, on the contrary, praised highly the scheme of the sinking fund, in which he cordially joined him. He had heard no
583
584
Sir Vicary Gibbs
adverted to the proceedings relative to the West-India abuses, and confirmed the statement of his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Perceval), that the want of legal evidence was the only cause why the offenders had not been brought to trial.
Sir William Young
said that he had never objected to a colonial tax, nor would he do it now. He only rose to set the noble lord right as to a fact. He had said that the prices of sugar at present bore him out in the conclusion that this article was a proper subject of taxation. He could say, from his personal knowledge, that the owners did not, since the year 1798, get more than two thirds of the price which they had formerly received. As they had not the home market, he hoped that a proper drawback would be allowed, that they might at least have the advantage of the foreign market.
Mr. Huskisson
contended that every attention had been paid to the abuses and frauds in the West Indies, from the time when they had been detected. He was sorry that the delinquents had not been brought to condign punishment; but this was owing to the peculiar circumstances of the case, and not to any want of attention on the part of the late government? Many abuses, however, had been pointed out, and, from the efforts that had been made, there were at first a great many which certainly did not now exist. He congratulated the country upon the pledge which the present government had given; a pledge, which, in his opinion, did them great honour, that they would adhere to the system of finance which had been adopted by his honoured friend who was now no more.
585
Mr. Vansittart
admitted that it would, no doubt, be extremely improper to bring forward the Ways and Means, unless those who brought it forward had some idea of what the expence of the military department was likely to be. He by means agreed with the hon. gent. who had just sat down, that the surplus of the consolidated fund was under-rated, and denied the criteria upon which the hon. gent's estimate was founded; but yet he would, of course, be happy if the result should appear to justify the hon. gent.'s calculations. The right hon. gent. took occasion, in alluding to the war taxes, to state that the country was indebted to his noble friend (lord Sidmouth) for the origination of that system, from which such salutary efforts were found to spring, and the principle of which now met the universal concurrence of parliament, and the country.
Mr. S. Bourne
alledged, that so far from overlooking the frauds committed in the West Indies, the late board of treasury issued several orders for the prosecution of all persons concerned in such frauds, and absolutely referred the case to the comptrollers of the navy, with directions to suggest proper measures to guard against their recurrence. He had also to state, that immediately after the report of the commission on the subject of these frauds, the report was referred, with a similar view of prevention for the future, to the commissioners for auditing public accounts.
586
Lord Temple
thought it his duty to state, that he knew of his own knowledge, that steps were taken by the late ministry to prevent the recurrence of the frauds committed in the West Indies. These frauds consisted of extravagant premiums on exchange, and false vouchers; and such abuses did, he knew, still continue to exist.
Mr. Huskisson
could not well conceive how the noble lord should undertake to speak so confidently as to the proceedings of the board of treasury. But if those who had the opportunity would look more attentively into the records of that board, it would be seen that no means were neglected, that promised to put a stop to the frauds alluded to. The fact was, that in consequence of an order from the late board of treasury, a person was now under prosecution in the court of exchequer, for permitting the continuance of the abuse which gave room for these frauds, although the character of this individual for integrity was by no means implicated. But, independently of the orders for prosecution, arrangements were made in the West Indies with respect to the drawing of bills upon England, which were particularly calculated to guard against every fraud upon the subject of exchange.
Mr. Rose
said, that had the noble lord taken the trouble to examine the records contained in his office, he would have found that steps had been taken for correcting the evil in question.
Mr. Perceval
said, that whatever steps might have been formerly taken for the removal of the evil, yet new culprits might arise, whose cases might require the application of additional remedies.
Mr. Fox
complained, that after the abuses had been known to exist for five years, no general plan had been devised for preventing their recurrence, and that matters had remained in precisely the same state, as when they were first discovered.
Mr. Long
begged to know, how the sum of 90,000l. payable as interest on the loan from the bank, was to be provided for?
Lord H. Petty
answered, by exchequer bills.—The several resolutions were then agreed to, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
587
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, March 29.
[MINUTES.]
A message from the lords informed the house, that their lordships had agreed to the 10 ½ Millions Exchequer Bills' bill, the 1½ Million Exchequer Bills' bill, the Rum and Spirits Bonding bill, and the Felons' Transportation bill, without any amendment, together with several private bills.—On the motion of Mr. Fydell, the account of Wool imported into Great Britain was ordered to be printed.—On the motion of lord Temple, the house resolved itself into a committee on the British Fishery bill, Irish Treasury Bills bill, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday.—Mr. Windham gave notice that he would on Wednesday bring forward his motion for the better defence of the country, for the production of which some gentlemen on the other side had so prematurely manifested such impatience.—Mr. W. Wynne presented abstracts of the Subdivision Rolls under the Levy en Masse act. He stated, that in 1803, the proper returns had been made for only seven counties; and in 1804 for only three counties; but letters had been written to the lords lieutenants of those deficient, requiring returns to be prepared.—The Attorney General brought up the report of the committee, appointed to search the lords? journals, to learn the proceedings of their lordships in the case of the Declaratory Witnesses' bill and the Witnesses' Indemnity bill, which was ordered to be printed.
[BUDGET.] Mr. Vansittart
moved for a return of the amount of the balances remaining in the exchequer, and in the hands of the several treasurers of the army, navy, and ordnance, in the year ending the 5th of Jan. 1805, and which were allotted to pay off sums voted for the service of the year 1804.
Mr. Long
observed that when the account just moved for should be brought forward, it would appear that the statement which the noble lord had made yesterday was quite erroneous. The noble lord had stated that 5 million of the late loan was to be applied to the discharge of the last year's arrears; thus casting a reflection upon the judgment and financial calculation of his right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt). But it would be seen that the arrears alluded to were not those of last year merely, hut an accumulation of several years. It would, however, be recollected by all who were acquainted with our financial history, that ar-
588
Mr. Vansittart
maintained that his noble friend had not described the arrears alluded to by the right hon. gent. as those of the last year; but on the contrary, as the result of several years. On the whole amounting to more than 5 millions.
Mr. Canning
took fire at the recollection of the remarks, which were made yesterday by the noble lord the chancellor of the exchequer. At the time he heard them he was surprised, but since then he had had recourse to the proper sources of information, and had learned that the sums yet to be received were more than sufficient to meet the expenditure of that year. Therefore assets remained to cover the debts. Such being the fact, he could not help complaining of the unfair, illiberal reflections which the statement made by the noble lord was calculated to produce with regard to the conduct and character of his lamented friend (Mr. Pitt).
Lord Temple
observed upon the right hon. gent.'s angry solicitude to resist any injurious allusion to the memory of his late friend, for whom there were many who felt quite as warm an interest and attachment as that right hon. gentleman could pretend to. However, as the right hon. gentleman professed to feel so much umbrage at any reflection upon his right hon. friend, because he was no more, it was rather strange that he should attempt to throw out reflections upon his noble friend (lord Henry Petty), who was absent.
Mr. Canning
replied, that he should not be deterred from commenting on the statements of the noble lord, whenever a proper opportunity occurred; and that he thought his absence extraordinary when the house were about to go into a committee of Supply.
Mr. Brooke
rose to state, that he should
589
Mr. Francis
also said, that he should take an opportunity to state some objections to the resolutions generally, and in particular to that which went to make such an increase on the Property Tax.
Mr. Babington
said, that he could not approve of taking away the exemptions under the Property Tax. He should also ask the noble lord, whether be meant to comprise military officers, clergy with small incomes, and those who had only a life interest in an estate, under the operation of the Tax?
Mr. Rose
thought, that as the noble lord had expressed a wish that the consideration of the Resolutions should be postponed, it would be but fair at present, to abstain from any discussion of them till Monday, when it could be entered in at full length and with every advantage.
Lord Henry Petty
expressed himself obliged to the right hon. gent. who had spoke last; but while he was up, he would take the opportunity of replying to the question that had been put; that it was intended to exempt military officers and clergymen of small incomes, though not those who had only a life interest in their property.—The several resolutions being read, the farther consideration of them was postponed till Monday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday March 31
[MINUTES.]
The royal assent was given by commission to the two Exchequer Bills bill, the Felons' Transportation bill, and to several other public and private bills. The commissioners were, the lord chancellor, lord Auckland, lord Walsingham —Lord Grenville rose and moved the order of the day for taking into consideration his majesty's most gracious message, recommending the conferring some signal mark of favour on sir J. T. Duckworth, for the late important service performed by him to the country. His lordship observed, that having so recently had an occasion to direct the attention and admiration of the house to those glorious and useful services, he should not vainly attempt to amplify by words what must be so gratefully felt by their lordships, and by the country at large. He should therefore content himself with moving, that an humble address be presented to his majesty, assuring his majesty, that that house would cheerfully attend
590
nem. diss.
[MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS.]
Earl Camden
rose to move an address to his majesty, praying for the production of certain papers. They were of two descriptions ; one alluded to the Additional Force bill, and to the number of men raised under its operation in each county and parish; the other referred to the general recruiting service for the different corps of which the army was composed. He should not now enquire, for he could not expect an answer to such a question, whether it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to repeal that bill. He had no wish whatever to provoke or anticipate any discussion respecting the plan that was in preparation for improving and strengthening our military system: the chief object of the motion with which he should conclude, was to collect and have in readiness before the house such information as was likely to bear upon the important question that was soon expected to engage their lordships' attention. He did not foresee any objection to what he should have the honour to propose; but if there was any, he should be ready to couch his motion in what less objectionable terms his majesty's ministers should think proper to suggest. His lordship then concluded with moving, "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that he would be pleased to give directions that there be laid before the house a Return of the number of men raised in each county and parish, conformably to the provisions of the Additional Force bill."
Lord Grenville
he should have no objection to the motion, provided it was understood that time return moved for not only contained the number of men raised by the provisions of the bill in question, but also a description or explanation of the particular manner in which they had, been raised in each parish. That was the consideration which in his mind would principally bear upon the plan that was to be brought forward, the particulars of which he expected would be known before forty-eight hours had elapsed. Much impatience had been expressed at the delay that had accrued in bringing forward that measure; but it should be recollected how essential it was both to the military service, and to the present circumstances of the, country, that nothing crude and imperfect
591
Earl Camden
had no desire but to obtain such information, as was likely to be useful in the discussion that was so soon to claim their lordships' attention; and he willingly consented it should be understood, that when the return was made, it. should be looked upon not only as indicative of the number of men raised, but also of the particular manner in which they had been raised.— The motion was then put and agreed to. The noble earl next moved, a similar address for the production of several other papers relative to the general recruiting of the Army, which motion was also agreed to.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that he should have to trouble the house with a few motions, which, in his opinion, would follow up and tend to give a more comprehensive effect to the motions which had just been submitted to the house by his noble friend. The object of them was, first, to obtain a return of the number to which the Volunteer Force of England and Ireland amounted, in the year 1804; and of the number that had been certified to be effectual. He should wish a similar return to be made of the state of the Volunteer Force for the year 1805. It must be obvious that the end he had in view, was to ascertain whether that force had diminished or increased; and how far it might be relied upon to form a part of our military system and means of defence. He was not aware that there could be any objections to these motions, but if there was, he should be ready to adopt any other less objectionable mode of framing them, which any noble lord would take the trouble to suggest.
Lord Grenville
felt no desire to object to the motions; though, as they now stood worded, he did not well conceive how a satisfactory return could be made in consequence of them. Much would turn on the word "effective;" and a return in that view by the Inspecting Officer. The volunteer force should not be considered in the same light, or under the same regulations as our regular force. He himself, was an officer of Volunteers, and a member of parliament; but in neither capacity
592
The Earl of Roslyn
observed, that there might be such an infinite variety of shades of difference between the greater or less degree of perfection in discipline in this or that Volunteer Corps, that it would be utterly impossible to make any general return according to the word "efficient," in the sense in which he supposed the noble lord to understand it.
Lord Hawkesbury
could see no difficulty in making the return, but he was still willing to adopt the amendment suggested, to omit Ireland, and to move only for the amount of the number of volunteers during the years he had mentioned, stating also the number that had been returned as efficient. —The question was then put on the motions so amended, and agreed to.
[COLONIAL INTERCOURSE WITH AMERICA.]
Lord Holland,
after adverting to the intention of a noble lord, below him, to bring in a bill relative to this subject, made some observations with respect to the magnitude and importance of the subject, of which it formed a part. He al
593
Lord Auckland
then rose to make his promised motion, which he prefaced by entering into several details. By the navigation acts of Charles II. and William III. all trade to the British Colonies in foreign bottoms was, he said, prohibited. It was evident that the vessels of the United States of America were foreign bottoms, and therefore came under the prohibitory clauses of these acts. From the peace of 1783 to 1788 they were precisely in this situation. In the latter year a legislative measure was resorted to upon the subject, which continued till the year 1793, from which period till the year 1801, the governors of the British Colonies in the West Indies exercised the power of granting, as necessity required, permission to import provisions and lumber from America, and every year a bill was passed to indemnify those concerned in advising or exercising this measure, for their acting contrary to law. It happened, however, that in 1801, owing to the confusion arising from the change of Administration, a bill of this description was omitted to be brought forward, and the subject had escaped attention until the present time, when, on turning to its consideration, he found this to be the state of the case. It became, therefore, necessary to indemnify four administrations, including that now in office, for having thus acted contrary to law since the year 1801, as well as the governors of the West-India Islands; this was the object of the bill, which it was his intention to introduce, and which, he had no doubt, would be supported by all those noble lords who had formed a part of the four administrations to which he had alluded. With respect to the subject itself, it was certainly of the greatest importance that our West-India Colonies should be regularly sup-
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The Duke of Montrose
concurred with much of what had been said by the noble lord. He thought, however, that with the aid of convoys, the West Indies might, even in time of war, be supplied from this country; but admitted that a supply so sent would be precarious. In time of peace, however, the question assumed a far different shape, as he conceived there was no doubt that our West-India islands could then be supplied regularly from this country. He objected to the trade between America and the West Indies on account of its giving rise to smuggling to a great extent, and of its enabling the Americans to import into our colonies the produce of the East Indies at a low rate, thereby excluding the merchants of this country froth a beneficial source of trade. When he heard the noble lord speak of the advantages of neutral bottoms, he hoped his majesty's ministers had not formed a similar opinion with respect to the trade carries on by America between the enemy's colonies and the mother country. The confining our West-India islands to procure a supply of provisions by means of British vessels in time of peace, would be all means of employing a great number of British seamen, whilst it would prove a beneficial source of commerce to this country, the advantages of which ought not lightly to be given up.
Lord Sheffield
observed, he was not prepared, at present, not being exactly aware of the line of argument, and calculation, which the noble lord intended to go into; otherwise, he thought he could controvert a great deal of what the noble lord had advanced.
Lord Holland
deprecated our entering
596
The Duke of Montrose
contended, that in time of peace an exclusive trade to our West-India islands, in British vessels, would be the means of employing a great number of our seamen, who would otherwise be unemployed.
Lord Grenville
observed, that the question as to what might or might not be politic or expedient, with respect to the trade to our West-India islands in time of peace, was wholly foreign to the question now before the house. Whatever opinion might be entertained on the former point, is was clear that in time of war, a necessity existed for allowing the Americans to supply our West-India islands with provisions; at all events, he was not disposed to hazard a speculation of confining the source of supply of British vessels, when the subsistence of near a million of persons inhabiting a most important part of the British empire was at stake. He suggested that it would be most expedient to adopt a legislative regulation, which might be done by a clause in the present bill, authorising his majesty in council, to direct his majesty's governors in the West Indies to issue proclamations from time to time, each proclamation to be in force for six months, allowing the importation of provisions and lumber in American vessels. He was decidedly of opinion that some legislative regulation ought to be enacted upon the subject and that the system of continually violating the law and passing bills of indemnity, ought not to be continued.
Lord Auckland,
in farther explanation,
597
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 31.
[MINUTES.] Sir John Newport
took the oaths and his seat for the city of Waterford.—Mr. Matthews presented a petition from the debtors confined in the county gaol of Waterford praying for relief.—The 20 million loan bill was read a first time. —Mr. Hawthorne brought up the report of the British fishery continuation bill, which was agreed to. —Mr. Hawthorne brought up also the report of the Irish Treasury Bills bill, which was agreed to. —Mr. Brooke, after stating the object of a motion of which he had given notice, for the protection of our colonial produce, by increasing the consumption of Rums, instead of foreign brandies, in the royal navy, and having stated that the consumption of foreign brandy in the navy last year was 625,000 gallons, whereas that of rum was only 220,000, and that this difference was owing, in a great measure, to the manner the duties are now levied; said, that he had so much confidence in the present administration, and in the assurance he had received that the suggestion he had made would be attended to, that he thought it unnecessary to press the motion of which he had given notice, —The motion was consequently withdrawn.
[SLAVE IMPORTATION BILL.]
The Attorney General
said, that the motion which he then rose to make, was one in which humanity and sound policy were united. It was to prevent so much of the trade as concerned the importation of African negroes by British ships into the colonies conquered or ceded to us in the war, or into the colonies of any neutral state in the West Indies. At present every state that had colonies in America, or the West Indies, and that were not actually at war with us, availed itself of the opportunity of British shipping to carry on the trade. Even in time of war, our enemies were also supplied with negroes for their colonies by British subjects and by British capital, although in a more indirect manner. The Danish islands of St. Croix and St.
598
The Speaker
suggested to the right hon. gent., that in point of form, it was necessary that a copy of that proclamation should be first laid before the house.
Mr. Fox
seemed to consider, that a proclamation of his majesty in council might be taken notice of by the house without a copy.
Mr. Perceval
said, that this was a proclamation not binding on all his majesty's subjects, and therefore it could not be taken notice of by the house, unless a copy were laid before them. He suggested to the learned gent. that it would be the better way to withdraw his motion for the present,
599
The Attorney General
agreed in this suggestion, and gave notice, that he should to-morrow move for a copy of the order in council.
General Tarleton
hoped the right hon. gent. who proposed this measure, would at least allow sufficient time to the merchants of this country to investigate the subject. It was certainly a matter of very great consequence.
Sir Win. Young
observed, that in some of the islands taken, particularly at Tobago, there could hardly be said to be a Frenchman. Instead of capitulation, it was with exultation that they saw themselves placed under the British government.
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
thought the right hon. and learned gent. had not made himself sufficiently master of the subject. As to the power of legislating for the colonies that were ceded, as long as they should continue in our possession, it was a right, which, generally speaking, was not restricted by any capitulation.
The Attorney General
said, that it was his intention to bring in his bill as soon as possible, that it might be read once before the recess; which he thought would meet the ideas of an hon. general (Tarleton), and give sufficient time for the consideration of the subject.
[BUDGET.]Lord Henry Petty
moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the report of the committee of Ways and Means. On the question being put that this report be now taken into farther consideration,
Mr. Francis,
who, on this occasion only, sat on the speaker's left hand, commonly called the opposition bench, began with making an apology to the gentlemen, who now occupied that situation, for committing such a trespass on their undoubted though recent right of possession. Then, addressing himself to the speaker, he said :—I have been accustomed for so many years to sit on your left hand, that I confess I feel myself more at home on this side of the house than on the other. We are creatures of habit, and naturally fall into the track we have been used to. Nevertheless, sir, as I have no particular ambition to stay here a moment more than is necessary, the gentlemen near me may be sure that I shall
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verbatim
607
stamina.
*
*
to pay to the bearer, on demand, the sum specified, in silver coin.
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609
Mr. Secretary Fox
began by saying, that on the subject of his hon. friend's attention
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613
Mr, Francis.
My right hon. friend has been pleased to say, that, on the subject of my attention to the government of India and the affairs of the India company, he could not be justly said to have deserted me, because he never gave me any encouragement, I suppose he means that, being tired of the subject himself, at which I am not at all surprised, since no man could be more weary of it than myself, he thought it right to discourage his friends from persevering in that duty. This language, from any other person, would have more the appearance of a charge than a defence. He might possibly find motives for withdrawing from these discussions himself. Of that he is the best judge. But I defy him to state a reason, that will acquit him of all blame, for discouraging others, as he says, from giving their attention to so great a national concern as the government of India. Does he seriously mean that the situation of India ought to have been totally
614
Mr. Fox
declared, with uncommon emphasis, that what his hon. friend had stated of his opinion of the speech of his hon. friend, was strictly true; that he adhered to it still, and never would he retract one word of it.
Mr. Huskisson
did not think the advantageous bargains that were now made for loans ought to be attributed altogether to the sinking fund, but rather to the system of raising a great part of the supplies within the year. In the year 1798, the rapid accumulation of the public debt from the expences of the last war, rendered it necessary to act upon that wise and patriotic principle. In the year before that, a small loan could not be had on any better terms than an interest of 6
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Lord Henry Petty
said, he had not described the deficiency it was necessary now to provide for, as having occurred last year, but as being to be provided for at the end of the last year. He was sorry he had not been in the house on Saturday when some discussion arose on this point He had hoped that the explanation given that day, and the time afforded for reflection since, would have prevented the subject from being renewed on Monday. If he had meant to make a matter of charge of this arrear, he would not have enume-
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619
Lord Castlereagh rose
and spoke as follows:—Sir; I am desirous, on the present occasion, of troubling the house with some general observations on the financial arrangements for the year. Approving as I do of the principle upon which the noble lord has framed his budget, namely, that of making an effort to raise a further proportion of the supplies within the year, and not seeing any prominent grounds of objection to the particular taxes he has proposed, I have been solicitous to reserve any points of difference till a later stage, when I might state what occurred to me more particularly, in objection to the very unusual course parliament has been called on to adopt on the present occasion, viz. that of determining on the ways and means for the year before the army has been voted; I am not wishing to interrupt the unanimity which it is my wish should prevail on the main question.—So far as this manly and wise policy, which the noble lord has acted upon, can carry with it any degree of impopularity, I shall be most ready to share it. with him, and deem it due to him distinctly to express my persuasion that, had the late government continued office, the people would have been called on to submit to burthens of equal magnitude.—Before I proceed to the point to. which I principally rose to advert, I must shortly take notice of what has this night fallen from the noble lord, imputing to my late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) the not having made an adequate provision, in
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Mr. Vansittart
observed, that the general approbation of the plan of taxation of his noble friend rendered it unnecessary to say much oil the outline of it; and it must meet the particular approbation of those who admired the system of the late right
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Mr. Rose
maintained, that notwithstanding every thing which had been endeavoured to be argued to the contrary, the noble lord had certainly violated the principle of the constitution of this country, as established in the system of proposing
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Lord Henry Petty
explained what he said on the subject of the arrears of the civil list, in which, he said, it was in the recollection of the house, whether he did not most distinctly state the arrears of the civil
633
Mr. Long
trespassed upon the time of the house but to reply to an allusion made by a noble lord, in an early stage of the debate, that he (Mr. L.) had made a charge against that noble lord, in his absence on a previous evening, of unhandsomely and unjustly attributing to the late chancellor of the exchequer the leaving great arrears of revenue to be provided for by his successor. He had made no charge of illiberality against the noble lord, but had merely attempted a vindication of his predecessor. The arrears which now presented themselves in the public accounts, were not the accumulation of last year, but arose from deficiencies that had been regularly carried forward from year to year, and the amount of which had been, in most years, increased by additional items; though at the present time, they were not larger than the outstanding demands of last year.
Mr. Johnstone
expressed his apprehensions that neither the financial estimates of the noble lord would be so productive, nor the expences of the war so limited as his statements alleged. He well remembered that, in a former year of the war, a right hon. gent. now a noble peer (lord Sidmouth) had stated to the house, that, under the aid of the sinking fund, the, war might be carried on at an annual expence of 27 millions, without additional burthens on the country; and yet experience had shown, that it exceeded that estimate by nearly 20 millions. He observed, that the debate of this night was for the most part a debate of paradoxes; but the most extraordinary of them all was the argument of the right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox) in respect to the property tax, namely, that the people would be better pleased to carry up the impost to what he was pleased to call "its natural limits," and be taxed ten per cent. at once, than have the charge gradually increased every year; but he believed, if the right hon. gent. had spoken this night from that side of the house where he had been so long in the habit of maintaining other opinions, even with the whole force of his great talents, and all his powers of eloquence, he would have found the strength of language sinking under his exertions, in ridiculing such an argument coming from any minister to whom he might have been opposed.
634
Mr. Hiley Addington rose
to express his astonishment at what had fallen from the hon. member, in allusion to a declaration made upon a former occasion by a noble relation of his, not now present to defend himself; more especially as he recollected that to a similar mistake of that hon. gent. upon the very same ground, his noble relation had given an explanation totally different, and such as he conceives satisfactory, and corrective to the hon. gent.'s mistake. On the contrary, his noble relation had said, that if the expences of the war did not exceed 27 millions a year, that then he should be enabled still to continue the reduction of the public debt by continuing the annual contribution to the sinking fund, without any additional burthen on the country. But it was impossible for him to say what should be the limits of expenditure in a war of such indefinite magnitude.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
made no opposition to the taxes proposed, but thought one argument of a right hon. secretary, in respect to the property tax, rather extraordinary, and the very reverse of what he always conceived to be that right hon. gent.'s opinion of that tax. He had always understood him to have been averse to the tax altogether, and thought he recollected him to have called it" an inquisitionary tax," or some such epithet. He understood him last year as having violently opposed a small increase of the tax; but never till that night, did he understand the right hon. gent.'s objection to that increase, merely because it was too small; or to the tax itself, only because it was not doubled in the first instance, in order thus to render it more acceptable to the people.
Mr. Ward
begged the noble chancellor of the exchequer, to explain one expression in his statement, on a former night, respecting the subsidiary treaty, which he stated to be so complex and indefinite, as not to afford the means of ascertaining its extent, or whether the million, which he claimed as an arrear on that account, was sufficient. The hon. gent. declared, that, in his mind, nothing could be more clear and simple, than the terms of the treaty. It stipulated to allow to our allies, 12
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Lord Henry Petty
answered, that the terms, as expressed in the treaty, did not afford the means of a clear elucidation.
Mr. Brooke,
agreeably to the notice he had given on Saturday, rose to oppose the tax on sugars, and said, that on whichever side of the house he might sit, he should always oppose every tax that appeared to him oppressive on the commerce of the country, and such he conceived to be that now proposed on Sugars; and which, he was convinced, must fall on the planter, and not on the consumer; for, from the first tax imposed this war, through all the successive increases, and up to the present proposition, which was to complete a rise of the duty to 10
s
Mr. Vansittart
admitted, that sometimes under the circumstances of a glutted market, and no foreign demands for sugars, this was the complexion which the circumstances of the sugar trade bore. However he promised that some investigation should take place, and that he should move for an account of the average gazette prices of sugar for some years back, in order to form an accurate estimate of the facts.
Mr. Babington
contested the justice of the tax on property. It would be impossible for men of small incomes to set themselves right without infringing on their capital. Nothing he believed would be more difficult than to persuade people in the country, of the propriety of compelling a man who had 50
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Mr. Vansittart
defended the principle of the tax. The hon. gent. had misapprehended it. It was not intended, that the person whose income was but 50
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636
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 1.
[MINUTES.]
The Cape of Good Hope Trade Regulation bill passed through a committee, and was reported.—The Expiring Laws bill was read a 3d time, and passed.—Judgment was given, on the motion of lord Eldon, in the case Keeling v. the East-India Company, referring back several of the points to the Court of Chancery.— The farther consideration of the appeal, the Countess Dowager of Lincoln and others, v. the duke of Newcastle and others, was, on the motion of lord Eldon, deferred till Monday the 14th inst.—Lord Auckland moved for Accounts of the Value of Imports and Exports to and from Great Britain, on an annual average of five years, ending 1793, and five years, ending 1 805; and for several other accounts of the Value of British Manufactures exported, Shipping, Tonnage, &c.; which were all ordered.—Mr. Hawthorne brought up the Irish Militia Service bill, and two private bills, which were severally read a first time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, April 1.
[MINUTES.]
New writs were ordered to be issued for Honiton, in the room of sir John Honywood, deceased; for Peterborough, in the room of William Eliot, esq. who, since his election, has accepted of the office of chief secretary for Ireland; for the county of Sligo, in the room of Charles O'Hara, esq. who, since his election, has accepted of the office of one of the commissioners for managing the affairs of the Treasury in Ireland; and for Queen's County, in Ireland, in the room of Henry Parnell, esq. who since his election has also accepted of the office of one of the commissioners of the treasury in Ireland.— A petition was presented from earl Spencer, and the other proprietors of Battersea Bridge, against the bill for making and maintaining a bridge across the Thames from Vauxhall Turnpike.—A petition was presented from the debtors in the Jail of Newgate.—The Irish Treasury bill, and the British Fishery bill, were read a third time and passed.—Mr. Calcraft brought up an account of unappropriated balances in the hands of the Treasurer of the Ordnance on the 5th Jan. last.—Sir J. Frederick having moved the 2d reading of the Lambeth .Inclosure bill, lord W. Russell said he had no objection to the bill being read. a second time circumstances being un
637
638
[PROPERTY TAX BILL.] Mr. Vansittart
brought in the Property Tax bill, which was read a first time; and on the motion for its second reading,
Sir Robert Buxton
said, that as he had not had an opportunity of speaking on this subject before, be would now remark on the extreme injustice and hardship which the bill would inflict, as well on the lower classes of the people, as oft the landed property of the kingdom in general. If the exemptions for repairs, for instance, were taken away, the tax would fall unequally, at least, in the proportion of 12l. or 13l. per cent. on the landed interest. This doing away of that exemption, he had always opposed. He did so on bringing in the bill of last year, and if those whose business it more peculiarly was, should not attend to it, he should feel it his duty to propose exemptions for that purpose in the committee.
Mr. Vansittart
replied, that the exemption alluded to was not included in the present bill, and that the committee was the proper stage for the discussion of that subject. He said, he meant to propose, that the bill should be read a 2d time to-morrow, for the purpose of having it committed on Thursday, after which it would be printed, and a day appointed for the report, after the holidays, when it would be competent to any gent., who thought proper, to move for its being recommitted. He assured the
639
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
said, he was aware that this was not the proper stage for going into any discussion: but promised to deliver his sentiments upon it, when the bill should he in a committee.
Mr. Bastard
cautioned the house, while they limited, the operation of the act to 10 per cent. against sanctioning a principle by which more than that amount might fall on any particular class.
Mr. Shaw, Lefevre
thanked the hon. gent. for the attention paid by him to the convenience of a certain class of the members of that house, and suggested Monday, the 21st April, as the most convenient day after the recess for taking up the consideration of the bill.—The bill was then ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.]
Mr. Hobhouse
moved to postpone the order of the day for taking into further consideration the report of the committee to whom the petition of the private creditors of the late nabobs of the Carnatic was referred, and moved that the same be taken into consideration on Monday se'nnight.
Mr. Francis
wished to know if the report would be printed in time for the previous consideration of members, before they were called on to discuss a subject of such importance.
Mr. Hobhouse
answered, that it was now printing, and he had every reason to think it would be finished time enough to be in the hands of every member during the recess. If not, however, he should have no objection,hereafter, to any reasonable delay.
Mr. Francis
said, the subject was one of the utmost importance, which involved a question of some millions, no less than six, which certain gentlemen, who called themselves the creditors of the late nabobs of Arcot, said were due to them by those princes: if this was now to be paid, it must come out of the coffers of the East-India company; and in their present most embarrassed and distressed situation, he felt it of high importance to consider how far it was prudent to throw such a claim upon them.
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that the question before the house regarded only 3 short
640
Mr. Golding
moved for a copy of the letter from the governor and council at Bengal, dated 28th March, 1805, to the court of directors of the India company, in relation to the friendly conduct of the nabob of Oude towards the British troops engaged in the Marhatta war; which was ordered.
Lord Henry Petty
rose to express his hope, that an hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Huddleston) who had given notice of a motion for that day, respecting the production of India papers, would have no objection to defer that motion to another day, as a right hon. friend of his, not now in the house, (Mr. Fox) was precluded by indisposition from attending in his place, and who was certainly desirous of being present at any discussion which might take place upon this subject.
Mr. Huddleston
answered, that from the polite and modest manner in which the noble lord had shaped his request, as well as an earnest desire that the right hon. gent. alluded to should be present when he made his motion, because, from the known opinions on that subject always avowed by that right hon. gent., he relied upon his support to his motion, he should have no objection to postpone it till Thursday.
HOUSE OF LORDS
Wednesday, April 2.
[MINUTES.] Lord Walsingham
moved for an Address to his Majesty to request a Copy of the Second Report of the Commissioners appointed to revise and digest the Civil Affairs of the Navy. Ordered.—The Irish Militia Service bill was read a second time, and committed for Monday the 14th inst.—The royal assent was given by Commission to the Expiring Laws bill and three private bills. The Commissioners were the lord chancellor, lord Walsingham, and lord Auckland.—The Cape of Good Hope Trade Regulation bill was read a third time and passed, and a message sent to the commons to acquaint them therewith.—A petition was presented from lord vise. Hawarden, claiming the Right of Voting at the Election for Representative Peers of Ireland, which was referred to the Committee of Privileges.—Adjourned to the 14th inst.
641
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, April 2.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Quarme
pro formâ
642
643
s
644
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 3.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Baldwin
presented a petition from the owners and occupiers of lands in the parish of Lambeth, against the Lambeth Inclosure Bill, praying to be heard by counsel, against the bill, which was referred to the committee on the bill.—An ingrossed bill for amending an act, passed in Ireland in the 29th year of King George II. intituled, "An act for amending and making more effectual the several laws relating to the First Fruits, payable out of Ecclesiastical Benefices in this kingdom, and for the better regulation and management of the Charitable Bequest of Dr. Hugh Boulter, la
Cabias Quo Minus
645
proformâ
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l
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d
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649
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650
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651
652
[MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS OF THE COUNTRY.] Mr. Windham rose
and spoke as follows:—Sir; the measures which I am about to propose are little more than the application of those general principles, which I have frequently had occasion to urge to the house, when questions connected with the state of our Military Establishments have
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l
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661
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s
664
ad libitum
665
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667
668
669
670
671
672
673
674
d
d
s
d
s
675
mutatis mutandis
676
trepidi, non pavidi.
677
678
Scire tuum nihil est, nisi te scire hoc sciat alter.
679
680
681
682
683
"For never did the Cyclops' hammers fall, On Mars's armour, forg'd for proof eterne, With greater force."
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685
686
687
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689
Lord Castlereagh rose
and spoke as follows:—Sir; however widely I may differ in opinion from the right hon. gentleman, in most of the positions and conclusions which he has laid down, it is not my intention to resist the introduction of any of those bills of which he has given notice, and which are calculated to develope the system which he has this night opened to the house; neither is it my intention at present to follow him through the details of his long and elaborate statement. Future opportunities will be afforded, better adapted for such discussions. It is impossible, however, upon a subject of such importance, more especially after the manner in which it has been treated by the right hon. gentleman, to suffer the present question to be put, without troubling the house with some general observations on the outline of the proposed alterations in the military system of the country.—The declaration with which the right hon. gent. commenced his speech, viz. that the state in which he found the military establishment, on coming into office, was such as to leave him no other alternative but to occupy himself with its immediate revision, has left me no other choice but to intrude myself on the attention of the house; and as an aggravation of this provocation, he has chosen to attribute the surprize expressed by several of my hon. friends near me, as well as myself, on more than one occasion, at the yet unexplained and unintelligible delay which has occurred in the production of his scheme, to a consciousness on our part that the military defence of the country was left by the late government in a state so defective, as to demand, not only a systematic but an immediate reform. So thoroughly convinced am I that the assumption on which the right hon. gent. proceeds is wholly destitute of foundation, that I must beg leave briefly to state to the house what the actual state of the military establishments was when they passed into the hands of the new government. Having preceded the right hon. gent. in the situation he now fills, and having under the superintendance and guidance of my late right hon. friend latterly administered the war department of the government, I feel it due not only to myself but to the house, to bring before them such a statement of the actual situation in which we left the public force, as may enable them to judge as well of the truth of the charge which the right hon.
690
691
692
1st Jan. 1804,
234,005
1st March 1806,
257,554
Increase
33,549
1st Jan. 1804,
148,486
1st March 1806,
192,372
Increase
43,886
1st Jan. 1804,
115,947
lst March 1806,
165,790
Increase
49,843
693
1st Jan. 1802,
242,440
1st March 1806,
267,554
Present army more than at any
25,114
694
695
696
697
698
699
700
701
702
703
704
705
706
707
Mr. Secretary Fox
spoke in substance as follows:— rise, sir, to make a few observations on what has fallen from the noble lord, and which appears to me so extraordinary that I could not have imagined that any human nerves were sufficient to enable any one gravely to make such assertions as he has hazarded. He has told us that the country is now placed in such a state of proud splendour and universal prosperity, as never had been handed over by any ministry to their successors.
708
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Mr. Yorke
admitted that there were difficulties with which the present administration had certainly to struggle, or any administration in their circumstances. But making allowances for those difficulties, that great man who had been mentioned, had left them in a situation that did him the highest honour. He applauded in high terms the impressive and powerful peroration the right hon. gent. had just made, with which he agreed most cordially. Finding ourselves deserted after all the great exertions we had made, it did riot become us to waste our time in little idle disputes, but to make every effort to be ready to meet
717
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remissio
719
General Norton
said, that it fell to his lot to command a second battalion raised by the former act; and from an account of the state of that battalion, he could show that out of 755 rank and file, 681 men had
720
Sir James Pulteney
objected to the whole outline of the plan brought forward by the right hon. secretary, as it tended to a diminution of the regular force of the country. It went to repeal the Additional Force act, an act by which greater encouragement was actually held out, by specifying not only a limited time, but even a limited place of service, while the scheme proposed only related to a limitation of the time. He thought that the character of the British soldier would be materially injured by the change proposed. The motives which generally led men to encounter dangers would be greatly lessened, by enabling them to leave the service and return to live with their families and friends, and it was natural to suppose that the national character would gradually decline. This was not the practice of any great military nation in Europe. He thought that the Volunteers, who had already incurred many heavy expences, ought to be continued on their present establishment. He disapproved of the plan of an armed peasantry.
General Tarleton
also objected to the proposed mode of recruiting, as it went evidently to demolish a great part of the army as already established, and to do away the Volunteer force, without substituting any other eligible mode. He had in his pocket the clearest proof of the efficacy of the Additional Force act. He was convinced that the finest recruits had been raised by that act. He could not help observing, that several of the lords lieutenants of counties appeared to have been remiss in their exertions in raising the men; but from this obloquy he might venture to exempt the county of Lancashire, to which he belonged. In the county of Devon there had been 35 men raised, in Surrey 539, in Essex 89, and in the county of Berks only 35. Such statements showed the disparity of exertions used to fulfil the object in view. He acknowledged that there were many officers who did approve of the limited species of service, and that he had formerly approved of it, but now, since he understood the matter, he had seen the propriety of encouraging a difference of opinion. Considering our insular situation and numerous colonies, it was absolutely necessary that we should abide by the regulations formerly adopted, in regard to the Army. He
721
Sir W. W. Wynne
said, that he was ready to prove that every man that had been raised for Denbighshire, was procured by means of a crimp. Lancashire, therefore, taking that fact and the statement of the hon. general together, had almost all the honour of carrying into effect the provisions of the Defence act.
Mr. Langham
said a few words in favour of the bill.
Lord Temple
observed, that charges against officers in a most respectable and highly honourable situation should not be lightly made. An hon. gen. (Tarleton) had accused some of the most highly confidential officers under government with thwarting the intentions of his majesty's ministers, whom it was their duty to support; he had, in fact, impeached them with a sort of under-handed work which thwarted the designs of the legislature for the defence of the country.
General Tarleton
in explanation, said that he did not intend to accuse any lord lieutenant of thwarting the intentions of government.
Colonel Craufurd
said, he would not then enter into a detailed statement of his sentiments with respect to the plan now submitted to the house. He could not for a moment, however, suppose that the right hon. secretary of state (Mr. Windham) had ever entertained the strange idea that seemed to be attributed to him, of suffering men to ask for their discharge, neither could he suppose that the right hon. secretary entertained so mean an idea of the character of a soldier as to imagine that he could think of asking for his discharge, while his brothers in arms had military duty to perform.
722
Mr. C. Dundas
stated the causes of the petition from Berkshire, for the repeal of the Additional Force bill, and maintained that the principle of that bill was impracticable.
Sir W. Young,
alluding to what had fallen from an hon. general, spoke in justification of the conduct of the lords lieutenants of counties in regard to their exertions under the Additional Force act.
Colonel Graham
said, he thought the limited service would operate as a great inducement to men continuing in the army, and would be the means of preventing desertion, which had now become too frequent.
Mr. Huddlestone
professed himself friendly to the principle of limited service.—Leave was then given to bring in a bill to repeal the Additional Force bill. At 2 o'clock the house adjourned to Monday the 14th instant.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, April 14.
[MINUTES.]
The Irish Militia Service bill passed through a committee, and was reported.—The Irish First Fruits bill, the Irish Treasury Bills bill, the British Fisheries Encouragement bill, were brought from the commons and were severally read a first time.—Lord Grenville moved that the committee appointed to search the journals for precedents of proceedings in cases of Impeachment, be instructed to consider of the best mode of proceeding on the trial of lord viscount Melville, and do report there on.—Ordered.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, April 14.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Calcraft
presented, "an Account of the sums which remained in the Exchequer on the 1st Jan. 1805, being part of the grants of parliament for the service of the Ordnance for the year 1804, specifying the proportion remaining of each grant; and also an Account of the unappropriated balance in the hands of the Treasurer of the Ordnance, being part of the said grants, on the 1st of Jan. aforesaid."—A new writ was directed to be issued for the election of a member for Helston, in the room of Davies Giddy, esq. who has accepted the Stewardship of the Chiltern,Hundreds.—Mr. Jervis, in pursuance of a former notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill for altering and expediting the trial of offences committed in
723
724
[DEBTS OF THE NABOBS OF ARCOT.] Mr. Hobhouse
moved the order of the day, for taking into further consideration the Report which, upon the 27th day of March last, was made from the committee, to whom the Petition of the several Creditors of his Highness the Nabob Wallah Jah, formerly Nabob of Arcot, and now deceased, and of his Highness the Nabob Omdut ul Omrah, late Nabob of Arcot, and of his Highness the Ameer ul Omrah, now also deceased, or one of them, and parties to the articles of agreement there, in after mentioned, was referred; which being read, the hon. gent. rose and observed, that before he proceeded to move for leave to bring in "a bill, for enabling the commissioners acting in execution of an agreement made between the East-India company and the private creditors of the late Nabobs of the Carnatic, the better to carry the same into effect," the house would naturally expect from him some preliminary observations, tending to explain the grounds upon which this measure was introduced to the notice of parliament. Indian subjects were usually deemed to be dry and complicated in their nature, and hence they did not generally receive the attention which their magnitude deserved. He was, therefore, obliged to an hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) now absent, on account of a domestic misfortune which he (Mr. H.) sincerely lamented, for endeavouring to rouse the attention of the house to this measure which, he agreed with him, was of great importance. Unfortunately for him (Mr. H.) it was also a subject of great extent, so that he should be under the necessity of troubling the house at greater length than was agreeable to his inclinations. In order that the house might completely understand the Whole transaction, he felt himself compelled to go back as far as the year 1784, when parliament first took cognizance of the private debts of the Nabob of Arcot,
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pro tempore
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bonâ fide
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bonâ fide
status quo
732
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733
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734
de facto
de jure
bonâ fide
onus probandi
735
vivâ voce
736
bonâ fide
737
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chose en action
740
741
Mr. Whitshed Keene
complimented the hon. gent. on the great talents which he had &splayed in the course of his elaborate speech. At present, he did not see any strong objection to the measure proposed; but he could not help remarking, that, in looking over the list of claimants, he saw a number of names of persons bearing high situations in India, and who, perhaps, had no strong claims on the humanity and equity of the company in this instance. He must also observe, that, although in 1784 this country claimed no right of participation in the surplus of the revenues of the company, yet, from the year 1793, the public had a claim of half a million annually, which it had never received; and, on the contrary, it was now stated, that a million was due from the public to the company. This might be a consideration in the discussion of the measure proposed. He had not been aware, that the business would have come on that night, but should be prepared on the day appointed for the second reading, to offer such observations as the consideration of the subject should suggest.
[STIPENDIARY CURATES' BILL] Mr. Perceval
in pursuance of a former notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill, for making more effectual provision for the maintenance of Stipendiary Curates, and for their residence on their cures. He trusted it would not he necessary to trouble the house at much length on the expediency of the bill which he now proposed. A bill to the same effect had lately passed this
742
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Lord Parchester
said, that it appeared to him, from what had fallen from the hon. and learned gent., that the proposed bill was founded on the same principle as the former: a principle which, he trusted, would never be recognised by the house. This bill was to give the Bishop the power of rating the income of incumbents, and assessing them according to his pleasure. It communicated an uncontrouled power which was liable to abuse, and authorised an invasion of the property of the subject. Besides, it would be premature to introduce such a bill, while a committee had been lately appointed to obtain information respecting the residence and situation of the Clergy. These enquiries should be completed before any such measure was brought forward.
Mr. Perceval
replied, that he had heard nothing that ought to prevent the introduction of the bill. It might be brought in at present, and the house might pause before the bill received a final discussion, till the report of the committee was received. It could not be said that the power of the Bishop would be uncontrouled, since an appeal would lie to the Archbishop. The alteration in the value of money was such as must convince every man that 75
l
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Lord Porchester
in explanation, said, no case had been produced to shew that the Louse should adopt this novel proceeding.
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, he did not rise to oppose the bringing in this bill, but to observe that, in his opinion, the allowance to the Curate ought not to be proportioned to the wealth of the rectory, or living, but to the duty he would have to perform, and the relative situation in which, in other respects, he stood in the parish.—The question was then put, and leave granted to bring in the bill.
[CONDUCT OF EARL ST. VINCENT.] Admiral Markham
finding, on examination, that several of the papers ordered with a view to the motion of enquiry into the conduct of earl St. Vincent, and those particularly necessary to the vindication of the noble lord, had not been produced, moved that a return be made forthwith to the orders for an account of the ships ordered to be built by contract, the price paid, and the sums expended in the repairs of the said ships, particularly those of the ships Ajax and Achille; a copy of the statement of the master builder in his majesty's dock-yard. at Deptford, of the price of each article used in building ships of the line at the commencement of the year 1805; a report of the expense per ton of building 74-gun ships at Deptford in 1800 and 1805 respectively. The book called Doomsday Book, contained an account of the original cost of every ship in the navy, and the sums expended in repairs upon her. But as some difficulty was stated to exist with respect to the production of extracts from this book, his anxiety for the full investigation of the noble earl's conduct, would not allow him to insist upon the production of those he thought to be wished for in this case, he moved that the returns to the orders alluded to be made forthwith, and he wished the navy board to be called to account for their not having been produced before.
Mr. Jeffery
complained of the delays thrown in the way of the investigation of the noble earl's conduct. If the friends of the noble earl had attended to the papers as he had done, they would have seen the deficiencies, and have caused them to be timely supplied. As to the extracts from Doomsday Book, the title of that book was very apposite, for they could not be produced till doomsday. The book was ten years in arrear, and it would take twelve Months to make it up. He had no objec-
744
Admiral Markham
appealed to the house, whether he could be chargeable with occasioning delay, in merely moving that the proper officers be called upon to produce the papers which had been already ordered. Had he moved for fresh documents, there might have been some shadow of ground for such a charge, though even then it alight have been sufficient to say that such papers were necessary; but he had now only moved, that the navy board do account for certain papers being withheld, and be ordered to furnish them forthwith; he knew Doomsday Book well, and was convinced, that something similar to it might be speedily produced: but he should wave its production, to Avoid the charge of wishing to cause unnecessary delay.
Lord Howick
said, that he would not enquire into the motives by which the hon. gent. opposite to him was actuated, in reiterating those. heavy charges against the noble lord; but he had never heard a more unfounded accusation than that which charged his hon. friend with the wish to occasion delay. The hon. admiral had moved for certain papers to rebut the charges which had been made, and to prevent the house from forming a partial judgment. Some of these papers had been withheld, from what motive did not appear; but they had not been kept back by any fault on the part of his hon. friend, who now called on the house to order their immediate production. Whether the hon. gent. would press his motion on Thursday next, or whether he would postpone it, it was for him to determine; but in common fairness, the house should first be in possession of all the documents necessary to throw light on the subject. He did not wish to ask any thing as a matter of favour from the hon. gent. but as he was convinced that the public had a great interest in the character of earl St. Vincent, and knew of no possible benefit that could result from the proposed discussion, he would submit it to the discretion of the hon. gent. himself, whether he would precipitate his motion, before there was time for the due consideration of the papers?
Mr. Jeffery
declared, that nothing should deter or divert him from bringing forward
745
[IRISH HOUSE DUTY BILL.] The report of the committee respecting the duty of 3
s
Sir John Newport
moved, that the house do agree to the resolutions of the said committee. He said he wished to state shortly to the house the grounds upon which he should propose to take off this tax: up to the year 1793 houses in Ireland having but one hearth paid an annual duty of 2
s
s
s
746
Mr. Foster
said, he felt himself called upon to say a few words upon this subject. He had been under this subject. He had been under the necessity of proposing this tax last year, in order to raise the necessary supplies, but he was ready to admit that there was no tax which ought sooner to be taken off than this one, provided it could be done with propriety. When, however, he looked at the situation of Ireland, and of the finances of that country, he could not be an advocate for taking it off by this short cut as it was true that the annual produce of the revenue of Ireland was not equal to the expenditure, he did not think it prudent to repeal it without due examination; but he begged to repeat again, that if it could be done with proriety he should be most sincerely glad of it. Before the house consented to repeal it, they ought to consider what tax they could substitute in the room of it; but this was not the time to go into this consideration, for he hoped the right hon. baronet did not mean to go on this occasion into a statement of the finances of Ireland when so few gentlemen from that part of the United Kingdom were present. The loan contracted for the service of Ireland for the present year was a very large one, and therefore it would be highly improper to take off taxes until some substitute had been provided, and he therefore wished this proposition had not been made till the right hon. bart. opened the Budget, when the house would have an opportunity of seeing whether the tax proposed as a substitute was or was not more objectionable or more oppressive upon the poor than the one which it was proposed to repeal. Suppose, for instance, the right hon. baronet should propose a tax upon iron as a substitute, he would venture to say that it would press much more heavily upon the lower orders of society than the present tax, and there would be no exemption from it. He begged to observe that the exemptions granted to the poorer classes in Ireland were much more considerable than they were in England or Scotland. He had thrown out these observations not with any intention of opposing the right hon. bart. because he was fully aware of the difficulties of his situation; he would al-
747
Sir John Newport
said, he could by no means agree with the right hon. gent. with respect to the amount of this tax, but even if the amount were as great as he had stated, he should still propose the repeal, as he did not think it formed a part of the regular financial system of Ireland. It was, as he had already stated, oppressive in its operation, and was calculated to produce perpetual jealousies and discontents. With respect to the tax which he should submit to the house in lieu of the one which he now proposed to repeal, that would be a subject of future consideration. It would be his duty on a future day to state to the house the ways and means for raising the supplies voted for the service of Ireland; and he would then endeavour to propose such a scale of taxation as, while it provided for the exigencies of the state, should press as little as possible upon the lower classes of society. The house would then have an opportunity of judging and deciding upon the whole of the subject. He did not however think, that upon the present occasion his proposition should be met with phantoms and with ideal taxes which he might hereafter propose. He alluded to what had fallen from the right hon. gent. respecting the tax upon iron. This, as he had already stated, would be a subject of discussion on a future day. The right hon. gent. had admitted that this was an eligible tax to take off if it could be done with propriety, and he hoped that he should be enabled to propose taxes in lieu of this, which would be equally productive, and less objectionable. The right hon. gent. had stated that the exemptions were more favourable in Ireland than they were in England, but it should be recollected that in England there was a certain criterion to go by, viz. the parochial rates, which did not exist in Ireland.
Mr. Lee
said he wished the right hon. bart. would state the amount of the tax which he proposed to repeal, as he thought that was a point upon which the house ought to be put in possession. He did not mean to give any opposition to time motion at present, but he thought it would be better if the right hon. bart. had not brought it forward until he opened the budget.
Sir J.Newport
said, he had not the slightest objection to state the amount of this tax, if he could do it with accuracy; but the fact was, that not above one-third of it
748
l
l
[IRISH BANK NOTES DUTIES.] The order of the day being read for taking into consideration the report of the committee respecting the Stamp Duties on Bank of Ireland Notes,
Mr. Foster
said, he thought it would be much better that the practice?in this country with respect to Stamps of Bank of England Notes should be adopted in Ireland, viz. that the Bank should pay a regular compensation in lieu of the duty of Stamps; but he wished that the composition should be made between the Bank and Parliament, and not between the Bank and the Treasury. This was a power which parliament could exercise itself, and therefore he did not think that it ought to be delegated to others. It was his intention, if he had remained in office, to have proposed a composition; but it would have been in the manner he had just stated. He then adverted to the paper currency of Ireland, which he said was so excessive as to depreciate itself; but this he thought might be prevented by putting the Bank of Ireland upon the same footing as all other Banks, and by preventing it from making such large advances to Government upon Treasury Bills. The latter be considered as a very desirable object, because, by advancing so much upon Treasury Bills, the Bank was prevented from affording as much accommodation as it might otherwise do to the public by way of discount. A measure had been adopted, which would have the effect of diminishing the circulation of paper, and that was sending over a large quantity of silver currency into Ireland. He did not know whether this practice continued; he hoped it did, but he would not press the right hon. bart. for an answer
749
Sir John Newport
said, he hardly knew how to follow the right hon. gent. in the observations which he had made. The right hon. gent, had admitted, that if he had remained in office he should have proposed a composition; but added, that he would not have fixed the rate of composition; and that it should be made with Parliament, and not with the Treasury. He begged leave to observe, that the resolution then before the house stated, that it would be proper to compound. When the Bill was brought in, it would be for the house to determine as to the quantum of the composition, and the persons with whom the power of making it should be lodged. That would be the proper time to discuss the points adverted to by the right hon. gent. There was one part of the right hon. gent.'s speech which appeared to him rather singular: he seemed to wish to diminish the quantity of Irish Bank Notes in circulation, and yet he wanted to increase the accommodation given by the Bank. He did not know how the Bank could increase its accommodation, except by increasing its issue of Notes; and it appeared to him that it made no difference whether the Bank advanced money upon treasury bills, or whether it advanced money to the public upon bills, bonds, or other securities. He had no difficulty in saying, that as long as the restriction respecting specie subsisted, something must be substituted in the room of it; and he did not know what substitute could be resorted to except Bank of England and Bank Of Ireland Notes. With respect to the question which the right hon. gent. had asked respecting the sending silver currency into Ireland, he had no objection whatever to answer that question. Government had continued sending over silver to Ireland as long as the price of silver permitted it. Silver currency, to the amount of about 400,000
l
d
l
l
750
l
Mr. Foste
said, he thought the silver should be sent over, even though government lost by it. With respect to the composition, the resolution stated that it was to be made with the Lords of the Treasury.
Sir John Newport
was of opinion that the composition must necessarily be made with the Lords of the Treasury, otherwise it would be necessary to apply to Parliament every year, or else to fix it once for all without any regard to time or circumstances. Giving the Treasury a power to make this composition with the Bank, would not create an improper connexion between them, or give the former any undue influence over the latter; and it was worthy of notice, that in the year when the composition was suspended, the Bank did advance a very considerable loan to the public on Treasury Bills.—The resolution was then agreed to, and a bill ordered to be brought in thereon.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 15.
[MINUTES.]
Lord Duncan took the oaths and his seat.—The Irish Militia Service bill was read a third time and passed.—The Irish Treasury Bills bill, and the British Fisheries Encouragement bill, were read a 2d time.—Mr. Hawthorn brought up the 20 million Loan bill, which was read a first time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, April 15.
[MINUTES.]
General Tarleton presented a Petition from certain Inhabitants of Liverpool trading to Africa, against the bill brought in for prohibiting the Importation of Negroes, in British ships, into the Colonies of Foreign States not at war with this country; and also into such islands as have been captured by this country during the war.—Mr. Jervis brought in a bill for rendering more speedy the trial of persons accused of offences committed in distant parts, on the high seas; which was read a first time.—Mr. Perceval brought in a bill for making more effectual provision for the maintenance of Stipendiary Curates, and for their Residence on their Cures; which was read a first time.—Mr. Huddlestone rose to acquaint the house, that he thought the production of certain India papers, for which he had in-
751
[WATER FORD WRIT.] Sir John Newport
rose to request the attention of the house for a few moments, to a motion which had been appointed for this day, respecting the Sheriffs of Waterford. He hoped, that if it should appear, that what had been done proceeded from ignorance, or inattention, the house would be inclined to pass it over, and that lenity would be shewn to those who had been chargeable with the oversight. But he would also submit to the consideration of his right hon. friend, who had given notice of the motion, that there had been some difficulty in the interpretation of the act on the subject, and that the law as it now stood in Ireland, had been the subject of considerable doubt, and difference of opinion.
M Secretary Fox
said, that he was disposed to pay every attention to what had fallen from his right hon. friend. The act imposed a pecuniary penalty on the sheriffs, unless the return was made within 40 days; but it was not meant to give them a discretionary power, to postpone their return of a member to the utmost limit prescribed by the law. Still, however, as some misconstruction of the act had taken place in Certain instances, he did not wish to bear hard on any individuals, who had not complied with what appeared to him the plain meaning of the act. The only question for the house to consider would now therefore be, whether it would be proper to amend the act, so as to remove every doubt, or whether a resolution of the house would be sufficient to prevent any such irregularity for the future.
Mr. Lee
stated for the information of the house, that the sheriffs in Ireland had a power which was not possessed in this country. In the case of a return for a county member in Ireland, the two attor-
752
Sir V. Gibbs
said, it was clear that the penalty could not be levied, if the sheriffs made their return within the period prescribed by the act.—Mr. Fox then agreed to abandon the motion of which he had given notice.
Mr. Perceval
said, that though in his opinion there was no necessity for the present bill, yet he would defer his Observations upon it till it had received those amendments which were likely to be made in the committee, and if therefore, he should not oppose it in the present stage of its progress; but he could not avoid making one remark on the bill, which had with him considerable weight. The design of the bill was to enact that to be the law, which was the opinion of a majority of the judges. But it appeared to him, that 6 out of the 8 judges, who approved of the principle of the bill, intended to give a qualified opinion. They seemed to think there might be exceptions from the general principle. The present bill, therefore, seemed to ascribe to them the unqualified adoption of an opinion which they entertained with certain exceptions. This was an objection which he should take an opportunity of urging against the bill, unless certain qualifications of the general principle were introduced into it.
The Attorney-General
said, that since his learned friend had expressed himself dissatisfied with the principle of the bill, he submitted it to him, whether it would not be more consistent to oppose the bill in its present progress, and state fully his objections to the principle, than afterwards to urge those objections, when the house had spent much time and attention on the amendment of the bill, and which, after all, it might see reason to throw out altogether.
The Master of the Rolls
defended the consistency of his learned friend. He could not help considering the present bill as unnecessary, but he would pay every degree of deference to the opinion of those who thought otherwise. If it should come out of the hands of the committee in a
753
[CAPTURE OF THE CAPE OF GOOD HOPE.] Lord Garlies
said, that previous to the holidays he had asked his majesty's ministers whether they intended to move for a Vote of Thanks to be conferred on the military and naval commanders, to whose meritorious services the country was indebted for the possession of the Cape of Good Hope. He was then given to understand, that it was thought proper to wait for further dispatches that might communicate the account of the complete conquest of the Settlement. These dispatches had now arrived, and seeing his majesty's ministers in their places, he took the present opportunity of enquiring whether they meant to confer any mark of public approbation on those who had achieved that important conquest. A noble lord (Howick) had come down to the house with great alacrity in the case of sir John Duckworth, and he believed that had it been his parti-
754
Mr. Windham
begged to state most distinctly to the house, in answer to the question of the noble lord, that his majesty's ministers had not abstained from proposin a Vote of Thanks on this occasion, from any want of approbation of the conduct of the officers and men who had been engaged in the expedition. They had done all that was wished to be done, and they had done it well; but it did not appear that the capture of the Cape was a military exploit of that splendid nature that called for such a distinguished mark of approbation as the Thanks of the House, which should not be made cheap by being too frequently conferred. A certain degree of discretionary judgment with regard to the more and the less, must be left with ministers; and on the best judgment that they were able to form, the achievement alluded to was not one of those which called for the solemn Thanks of Parliament.
Lord Garlies
did not wish to enter into the merits of the conquest. The acquisition of the Colony—(Here the noble lord was interrupted by the Speaker, who observed that there was no question before the house.)
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, April 16.
[MINUTES.] Lord Grenville
moved to send a message to the Commons, informing them that his majesty had been graciously pleased, in pursuance of an address of that House, to give directions for fitting up a place proper in Westminster-Hall for the Trial of Lord Viscount Melville. Ordered.—Lord Grenville adverted to the motion which had been formerly agreed to by the house, for the attendance of Witnesses on the 29th of April, relative to the charges against Mr. Justice Fox, and observed that it would be impossible for the house to proceed at the same time on the trial of lord Melville, and in the examination of the charges against Mr. Justice Fox. He therefore moved to discharge the order, and renew it for Monday, the 19th of May. The marquis of Abercorn assented to the motion; which was agreed to.—Lord Holland, after referring to the numerous Petitions on the table from the Debtors in the different prisons, praying for relief, stated that he did not think it necessary to detain their lordships by entering into any discussion upon the subject;
755
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, April 16.
[MINUTES.] Lord Temple
brought up a petition from Mr. Lyon, the agent for the island of Jamaica, against the bill to prevent the Importation of Slaves into such of our colonies and settlements in the West Indies, as have been surrendered to his majesty during the present war. His lordship said, that the petition had been put into his hands, and he therefore thought it adviseable to present it; but he begged it to be understood, that in so doing, he did not pledge himself at all on the subject matter of it. The petition was ordered to lie on the table till the second reading of the bill, and that the petitioners should be heard, by counsel, against the said bill, if they thought fit.—Mr. Mitford, from the exchequer in Scotland, presented an account of Grants made out of forfeited Estates in Scotland, and the Balances due out of the same. Also, an account of all Malt chargeable with duty in Scotland.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the house resolved into a Committee of Supply, in which the usual Annual Votes for Miscellaneous Services were agreed to.—The house having resolved into a Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. Vansittart, with a view to the object of which he had given notice yesterday, namely, that of making a proportionate Addition to the Duty upon East and West India Sugar, moved, that an additional Duty of 1
s.
[DEBTS OF THE NABOBS OF ARCOT.] Mr. Francis,
pursuant to his notice on a former day, rose to bring forward his motion for the production of papers respecting the Debts of the Nabobs of Arcot. But, before he proceeded to intro-
756
Mr. Hobhouse
said, it was his desire that the hon. gent. should be most fully and satisfactorily informed upon this subject. The hon. gent. had not been present when he had first stated his proposition, and moved for leave to bring in the bill, or his present question would not have been necessary. The commissioners, he said, consisted of three persons; namely, he (Mr. Hobhouse), a Mr. Horner, who was nominated in consequence of an hon. gent. Mr. Ryder, having withdrawn himself from the commission, and Mr. Cockburne: the former was a gent. conversant in the law; and the latter an old servant of the India company, and much experienced in India affairs. With respect to the authority for their appointment, it was made by the directors of the East-India company, in concurrence with the creditors. With regard to their remuneration, it was intended to be according to the habit of parliamentary commissions, namely, of that of the
quantum meruit,
Mr. Francis
thanked the hon. gent. for the very candid and satisfactory answer be had been pleased to give to his question. He confessed, that from the information which he bad just received from the hon.
757
758
759
bonâ fide
in limine.
760
Carnatic
761
Mr. Paull,
in seconding the motion, cautioned the house to beware how they sanctioned the principle upon which the bill of the hon. gent. (Mr. Hobhouse) was founded, as, if dim principle were established, claimants would, no doubt, immediately come forward for above 3 millions, alledged to be due in the same way from the Nabob of Oude and other native princes in India.
Mr. Whitshed Keene
seconded the motion; he said, he believed he could be able to throw some light on the causes which led to involve the Nabob of the Carnatic in such embarrassments and claims of debt from the company's servants. Having the honour of an early and long intimacy with lord Macartney, who was, at one time, sent out as governor to Madras, that noble lord, after his return to Europe, had told him, that he had scarcely reached the seat of his government 24 hours, when he received a message from the Nabob, requesting to see him: the noble lord accordingly paid an immediate visit, and was astonished to find it was for the purpose of being presented by the Nabob with a sum of money adequate to 30,000
l.
762
their
Mr. Hiley Addington
said, he had not the slightest disposition to oppose the motion of the hon. gent.; on the contrary, he wished to grant him the papers he required. He was very glad to observe, that the hon. gent., notwithstanding the declaration he had a short time since made, that he would decline all farther interference with India questions, seemed of late rather disposed to promote investigation into India affairs. He rejoiced at the circumstance; because, from the hon. gent.'s great knowledge and extensive experience upon India subjects, he was certainly competent to throw very important lights upon such subjects, and bring them home with more effect to the attention of the house and the public; which might have the good effect of rendering the servants of the company in India less lax in their duties. But his purpose for rising now was, to set the hon, member right in his conception of the bill, the true objects of which he seemed wholly to misapprehend. His hon. friend had not brought forward his bill with the precipitancy imputed to him, but had given fair notice of every proceeding with respect to it; and to his certain knowledge, the report upon which the bill was founded was delivered to members at their residence on the Friday before the bill was introduced. The bill was not a call on parliament to sanction
763
Lord Castlereagh
described the purview of the bill, in the same light precisely as the last right hon. gent. He said that,
764
Mr. Serjeant
Best
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that after the statement made by his right hon. friend (Mr. H. Addington) it was scarcely necessary for him to animadvert upon the charge preferred against him, as a commissioner, for having introduced this measure to parliament. The explanation which his right hon. friend had given, he trusted, would be satisfactory to the house; and, if so, he should be at his ease.—There was, however, another accusation made by the hon. gent. (Mr. Francis), against him, which it was impossible for him to pass over in silence. He had been accused of hurrying this measure, and endeavouring to take the house by surprise. The hon. gent. had said that the printed report and papers were not delivered to the members until the moment before the subject was opened on Monday last. Here the hon. gent. was under a mistake. They were delivered at the houses of the embers early on Friday morning in the last week so that nearly 4 days were allowed for the examination of a very small collection of papers.—The house having honoured him with their attention on the general subject for so long a time on
765
Mr. Francis
then said, that in prefacing his second motion, he should intrude but a few minutes on the patience of the house. In what he had said, he had not entered into the merits of the bill, good or bad. He had indeed stated, that the hon. gent. seemed to him to have carried on the measure with precipitancy; but that, he now agreed, had been sufficiently accounted for. As to his having insinuated that the hon. gent. was himself interested in the measure, he begged it to be understood that he had not insinuated, but had expressly stated, that he did not think the situation of a member of such a committee and of a member of this house exactly
766
2d.
Mr. Grant
declared that he had no objection to any scrutiny of the kind. No person could be less interested in it, personally, than he and the other members of
767
HOUSE Of LORDS.
Thursday, April 17.
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.]
Lord Auckland
in moving the order for the 2d reading of the bill upon this subject, briefly adverted to the circumstance of a noble friend of his, then absent, who would reserve his sentiments upon the subject for the committee. He would therefore move, "that the bill be now read a 2d time."
Lord Hawkesbury
did not mean to oppose the motion, particularly as he understood from his noble friend, that it was intended to render the prospective part of the measure, or rather that which was thrown out on a former evening, as intended, by means of an additional clause, respecting the discretionary powers to be vested in the governors of the islands, the matter of a distinct and separate bill. Respecting this very important consideration, however, which involved topics of the greatest consequence to the commercial interests of the empire, he had it seriously to recommend it to the attention of ministers, that under the circumstances, it was preferable to postpone the discussion of that part of the subject till the next session. This proceeding would not only not operate injuriously, but not be productive of any inconvenience. His lordship pressed this point upon the serious consideration of ministers, and adverted to the importance of any topic which so deeply involved the commercial concerns of the country, and its navigation laws, as that to which he alluded.
Lord Auckland
shortly expressed his opinion, that his noble friend seemed to misconceive what had fallen from him.
Lord Holland
made a few remarks on the
768
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 17.
[MINUTES.]
A new writ Was ordered for the borough of Kinsale, in Ireland, in the room of Samuel Campbell Rowley, esq. who has accepted the Chiltern hundreds.—Mr. Francis, previously to the 2d reading of the bill for extending the powers of the commissioners for liquidating the Debts of the princes of the Carnatic, wished to throw it out, in the way of a suggestion, or a notice, that he thought it extremely proper for the members of that house, who were of the legal profession, to be prepared to give an opinion, whether, by the fair construction of the act of 1784, the court of directors of the East-India company had a right, by law, to delegate the powers with which they were invested by the act, to commissioners or any other persons?—On the motion of sir P. Stephens the house went into a committee on the acts relating to the discovery of the Longitude. A resolution granting 10,000
l
[WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL]
The house having resolved itself into a committee on this bill,
The Master of the Rolls
said, that from what had passed upon a former occasion, he had reason to expect that such objections as he had stated to it, would have been obviated; and even though he had found it to be so intended, he knew that, having declared his opinion that the bill was quite unnecessary, he was not bound
769
The Solicitor-General (Mr. Romilly)
said, that he had so high a respect for the opinion of his right hon. friend, that it was with great unwillingness he felt himself obliged to dissent from him on the present occasion. The great objection he had to this proviso was, his conviction, that the rules of evidence at common law could not be reversed, or remedied, by the authority of any court of equity, neither were they, in fact, determined even by the statutes. No judge, in a court of common law, would allow a witness to state, as an objection to a question, that he would not be compellable to answer it in a court of equity. He saw not the least necessity whatever for this proviso, which might occasion the bill to be thrown out in another house. This bill would not oblige a judge to compel a plaintiff to prove that the debt he sued for was an unjust one, nor would a court of equity compel a man to disclose a forfeiture of his estate by a breach of contract; but the same rules were not applicable to courts so distinct. At
Nisi
770
Prius
The Attorney-General
said, he gave his right hon. friend, who spoke last, full credit for having the very best intentions; but, though the bill originated in another house, which was itself the supreme court of judicature in the kingdom, and, of course, attracted the attention of the highest and most distinguished law authorities in the country, he could not help feeling, that it was capable of being predicated of the bill, that, in its present shape, it did not declare what was, in fact, the opinion of the twelve judges, who all admitted that there were exceptions to the general rule. He was, therefore, in favour of the proviso; for, as the law would stand according to the present bill, the judge would have no discretion, but be obliged to compel a witness to disclose every thing. A man, for instance, may hold an estate by a defective title, of which he had no notice when he gave a valuable consideration for it, but by this bill, the judge could leave him no alternative, but compel him to disclose, upon oath, that defect, which would, at once, reduce himself and his family, perhaps, from affluence to a workhouse. The laws of evidence, in courts of justice, were not the same now as at the time of the Crusades to the Holy Land, from which period, he believed, they took their date; for, during the space of 30 years that lord Mansfield presided in the court of king's bench, he established a variety of rules which were not in use before, and subsequent chief justices had followed the same precedent. Upon full consideration, he was satisfied, that if the bill were not qualified in the manner now proposed, the judge could do nothing in such cases; and bound, by a declaratory law, could not even listen to any just objections relating to the effect which evidence may have in any civil suits to be afterwards instituted.
The Master of the Rolls
said, that his learned friend (Mr. Romilly) certainly possessed, in a very eminent degree, the faculty of expressing himself with great accuracy, as well as fluency; but notwithstanding these advantages, he must confess, that with all the attention in his power to give to his observations, he could not
771
v.
772
773
The Solicitor-General
in reply to what was asked by his right hon. and learned friend, in one part of his speech, was happy in being able to declare to him his decided opinion, that after this bill should pass into a law, the judges would be as much, at liberty to protect a witness from any disclosure, by omission of the conditions of forfeiture, or any defect of title to estates, as they would be, if there were no such law in existence. He would not presume to state, that the ingenuity of some gentlemen might not devise a case, but his imagination was incapable of forming to himself any, in which a witness, if questioned as to any defect of his title, might not answer, under the sanction and protection of the court, "I do not think myself obliged, and therefore will not answer any question, the effect of which may be to deprive me of my estate." In considering the opinions as delivered by the twelve judges, he did not find that there was any one of them who stated, that the rules of evidence in courts of law were to be governed by any reference whatever to those of equity, but that they all maintained a contrary doctrine. As to the necessity of this declaratory bill, he said it arose from the uncertainty which prevailed upon the subject, from the sentiments expressed by some of the judges; and he considered that necessity to be increased by the authority of his right hon. and learned friend (the master of the rolls), who seemed to concur in the opinions of the minority. It was some satisfaction, however, to reflect, that, to the 8 judges, whose opinion was in favour of the obligation on witnesses to answer such questions as might afterwards subject them to civil process, were to be added the authorities also of the present and late lord chancellor: so that of the persons who must be considered as best qualified to decide, there were 10 who maintained, that witnesses could not protect themselves from answering such questions, against only 4 who seemed to hold a different opinion.
Mr. Perceval
said, he thought it would be much better if the bill had not been brought in, and very much to be desired that it should not pass. It was a great pity the other house did not put the question to the learned judges, in order to know precisely, what the exceptions were to which they alluded in their several opinions. Instead of this, as he had been informed, a similar proviso to that now un-
774
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, it had been his particular wish to hear the opinions of the learned gentlemen of authority, before he rose to say any thing on the subject, and in having done so with the utmost attention, he could not but say, that he differed entirely with the learned gent. who spoke last, who had certainly delivered his sentiments with great force and perspicuity. He was, for his own part, after every consideration he had been able to give the subject, decidedly in favour of the bill; but he agreed entirely with his learned friend near him (the solicitor-general), that it ought not to pass with the proviso. He thought, at the same time, that what this bill declared, was not the precise opinion of the majority of the judges; but what had been said in the course of the present debate completely convinced him, that the bill ought to pass; for when there was so great a difference in opinion among men of such high authority as the judges, and also among gentlemen so learned in both the theory and practice, as the right hon. gent. (the master of the rolls), as well as the other learned gentlemen who had delivered their opinions on the subject, he thought it was high time the law should be made clear, and no doubt left remaining on the subject. He observed, that great stress had been laid on the words used by the learned judges in delivering their opinions; namely, that in speaking to the point in question, they say, "generally," or, "generally speaking," a man is compellable to answer; though he may, by so doing, render himself liable to a civil suit. But he could not suppose they meant otherwise, by the words "generally speaking," than that he was compellable to answer, leaving it to be determined by the judges, whether this civil suit were of that nature as ought to bring him within any of the exceptions to
775
776
Mr. Jervis
said, that when he came to the house, he was rather under an impres-
777
Sir V. Gibbs
said, that he thought the arguments of the right hon. secretary of state were extremely forcible, and they had completely convinced him that the bill would be far better without the proviso. Nothing could be more clear to him, than that the judges of the common law should not be obliged to refer for rules to a court of equity, for, as had been most ably enforced, the common law existed long before a court of equity was ever known or heard of. The court of equity was originally instituted for the purpose of softening the rigour and. severity of the common law, the courts of which had always been governed by their own rules. The court of equity had unquestionably taken rules from the courts of common law, because it was indispensably necessary to them, but it had always been the reverse in the courts of common law, the judges of which had uniformly been governed by their own rules. Another reason which induced him to disapprove of the proviso, was, that the bill declared what the opinion of the majority of the judges was, and they, in delivering those opinions, had not, in any one instance, referred to the rules of equity. He thought that, from the expression "generally speaking," the judges did not lay down the rule universally; but, as the house were now about to declare the law, they should be extremely careful not to do so, contrary to the opinion of the majority of the judges.—The question was then put, and the proviso. negatived.
[MILITARY OPINIONS RELATING TO THE ARMY.] Mr.
Yorke
778
779
780
General Walpole
said, there was a short answer to the argument of the right hon. gent., that the principle of enlisting soldiers, in general and even colonial service, for limited and short periods, was new to the British service. On the contrary, so far from being new, it was neither unusual nor unfrequent. It had been done in the seven-years war; it had been done in the American war, when men were enlisted for a term of only 3 years, and the number of men raised after the adoption of this measure, far exceeded what had been raised prior to it. He could not therefore see what necessity there existed for calling for opinions on a subject, the merits of which had been already decided by experience.
Mr. Secretary Windham
observed, that the impatience of the right hon. gent. that night for the production of the papers which he moved for, was pretty much of a piece with. the eagerness which had prevailed on other points, with a view to anticipate the premature discussion of subjects not before the house. The question to which the motion and the argument of the right hon. gent. that night were directed, was not before the house; and when it should be brought forward, the house should certainly have the full benefit of those opinions to which the right hon. gent. had alluded. He was, however, a little surprised that the right hon. gent., in his speech on the subject, had not been able to anticipate some part of the objections likely to be urged against his motion: and, considering the tenacity of gentlemen on the other side of the house, on the subject of producing papers moved for, when they were in office, the endeavour to press the production of those documents moved for that night, was rather an unfair attempt to place his majesty's ministers in a very awkward and unpleasant situation. The right hon. gent. must certainly admit, that however it might be the wish of ministers to comply with the motion of any member for the production of documents in their possession, in order to the fullest information of the house, yet, that there were often papers which those in office must
781
782
783
Mr. Yorke
in explanation, said, that the only reason why he alluded to the document respecting the Austrian service was, because the usages of continental service had been pleaded by the right hon. gent. in support of his plan.
General Tarleton
was ready to acknowledge, that the principle of the right hon. gent.'s plan in theory, appeared fascinating; but he was of opinion that it was totally impracticable as to any useful effect: more especially for colonial service. The right hon. gent. had stated, that the opinions of eminent military men were at variance upon the question, and that 6 thought one way, and 7 the other. It was extremely necessary, however, for the house to know what were the nature and form of the questions proposed to these officers. The right hon. gent. admitted, the questions were privately put, and that the answers also were private and confidential; but it was extremely necessary to scan those opinions, and to compare them with the questions in answer to which they were given. For, when the right hon. gent. said that officers disagreed, he wished to know the mode of the questions put, as statesmen sometimes put questions to military men in a way to elicit an answer applicable to their own purposes. The right hon. gent. said, the answers were confidential, and that the promulgation of them to the house would excite jealousies. To this he would reply, then examine those officers at the bar; and if it was imagined by any man they were afraid or unwilling to have their opinions known, he must know little of that emulation which pervaded the breast of every military commander, and which was the life avid soul of the army. But, with respect to the questions put to those officers, he shrewdly suspected they did not proceed from the horse-guards, as from the, authority of the commander in chief, but from some of those
civil-military
784
Mr. Secretary Fox
observed, that the questions put to those military officers, and which produced those opinions, were not propounded by his majesty's present ministers, as insinuated by the hon. gent.; they had been put by the commander in chief during the continuance of the last administration, and the balance of opinion reflected great honour on that illustrious personage, as it shewed that he was desirous of obtaining fair and impartial information on the subject.
Lord Castlereagh
said, he remembered some of those questions had been put during the administration of his right hon. friend; but he did not recollect that the answers communicated to them were given in such a way, generally at least, as to imply any thing secret. Two or three of them might, he said, have been marked on the covers confidential;" and though he was ready to admit that great delicacy ought to be observed with respect to secret and confidential communications, if its should appear, upon a view of the contents of such communications, that they were of that nature, yet there was no other consideration in the present case which could justify the refusal of their production. Some few of those letters might have been written in a manner which shewed the writers never apprehended they would be made public: but the rest were written in a regular official form, as if intended to meet any purpose to which government should think it necessary to apply them. He should therefore advise, that those letters of a contrary description should be sent back to the officers who wrote them, in order for such correction as they might deem necessary, with a view to prepare them as documents for the public eye, if circumstances should render it necessary; and he also thought it would not be advisable to lay any of those letters before the house, contrary to the wishes of the officers
785
Lord Henry Petty
said, he felt a right to regard with some surprise the declaration of the noble lord, that he could see no objection to the production of the papers now moved for, when during 3 years past that this subject had so frequently been a topic of discussion, he had never thought the production of them necessary to enlighten the understanding, or guide the deliberations of parliament. An hon. general (Tarleton) had evinced much anxiety to learn in what form the questions were put, to produce those opinions: whatever it was, was not now very material; and from what had that night fallen in the course of debate, the house would see that the question did not arise out of any measure or proceeding now proposed. But whatever answers might have been produced, and however necessary the house might deem the opinions of military men, towards its own general information upon a topic of this sort, it was not probable it
786
de facto
Mr. Canning
in reply to what had fallen from the noble lord, said, that his friend, the late chancellor of the exchequer, had indeed; at one time, expressed himself in favour of limited service; but that he had afterwards satisfied his mind, that it was not expedient to bring forward such a measure, and, on that account, none of the opinions that he had caused to be collected were laid before the house. In the present
787
Lord De Blaquiere
said, that every thing was of moment which branched out of this important subject, or he should have thought the present discussion scarce worthy of notice. It was with concern he differed with so many of his friends, but upon a point which had engaged his attention for the best years of his life, he could make a compliment of his understanding (slender as it might be) to no person whatsoever. It had been stated, that with a limited service, the army could not be supported: but he was of opinion, that,
788
Sir James Pulteney
wished, as the subject was almost new to the house, and to the
789
Mr. W. Dundas
was sorry to differ on this occasion from those gentlemen with whom he usually acted; but he could not consider the opinions that had been moved for, as proper for the public inspection. They had not been written for the purpose, or with the design of being communicated to the public. They were of a private and confidential nature; and besides that the publication of them might wound the feelings of individuals, the public service might suffer detriment from such a measure. Much might transpire, that might be calculated to do public mischief. But though he deprecated their being laid before the house in their present form, they might yet perhaps be revised by those who had originally given them in, and in that state, with their consent,submitted to parliament.
Mr. Yorke
said, he had no objection, with the permission of the house, to withdraw his motion, provided his majesty's ministers would give the house to understand, that they would take the opinion of high military authorities, for the purpose of laying them before the house.
Mr Secretary Fox
stated, that this was quite another question from the one that had been before under discussion, and required time to consider how far it might be proper to assent to it. There was not a single instance that he was aware of, in which parliament had resorted to military authorities, except with a view to retrospective measures. If they were once to sanction the principle of calling for communications from officers to their commander in chief, it would cause a greater revolution in the army than the measure proposed by his right hon. friend. Much had been said of altering the condition of the soldier; but this would alter, in a very extraordinary way, the character of officers
790
Mr. Yorke
contended, that when the subject of fortification, as planned by the duke of Richmond, was before the house, general officers had been consulted, and their opinions laid before the house.
Mr. Fox
replied, that there was a distinction between an opinion given by a board of officers, and that which was communicated individually. The case referred to had been of the former description, and, therefore, was no precedent for the measure now proposed.
Colonel Craufurd
contended, that the question respecting the fortifications of the country was a purely military one; whereas the question respecting the means of recruiting the army was not so. He thought it rather singular, that the measure of his right hon. friend should be represented as likely to cause a revolution in the state of the army, when the principle upon which it was founded, was that upon which the defence of the country rested. The first act of the administration, of which the hon. gent. who brought forward this motion was a member, was to call out the militia, to the number of 90,000; the next was for raising a force of 50,000 men for the army of reserve. These forces were raised for a limited term, and to them the country was to look for its defence. And yet they were now told that the application of the same principle to the mode of raising the regular force, inferior in number, would cause a revolution in the army.
Mr. Perceval
contended that the measures of the late administration had been eminently successful in supporting and increasing the military force of the country, and that there was no necessity for having recourse to new and untried experiments on a subject of so much importance. The new measure was of such a nature as called
791
Lord Temple
contended that the case of resorting to the authority of military men, when the duke of Richmond was at the head of the ordnance department in 1786, was not at all similar to the present. The noble lord read an extract from the journals, to shew that the information in that case laid before the house, was only an extract from a report made by a board of officers, appointed by his majesty, who were responsible for their opinions. It was unconstitutional to refer to opinions such as those communicated in the manner by which those that were the object of the preserve motion were given in, and as there was no precedent for examining officers at the bar of the house, on such subjects, be should object to that course of proceeding also.
Mr. Rose
thought, that the subject on which a communication had been made to the house, when the duke of Richmond had been at the head of the ordnance department, respecting the best mode of fortifying the dock-yards, was a more delicate question than the present, and argued that the papers ought to be granted.
Mr. Calcraft
contended, that there could have been no breach of delicacy, in laying before the house the report of officers appointed to draw up their opinions upon public opinion referred to them for consideration. The opinions under discussion stood upon different grounds, having been confidently communicated to the commander in chief, at his desire, to assist his own judgment. It had been said, that their opinions might be referred back to those who gave them, in order to their being produced in a more perfect form. But were they all in existence? Were they at
792
[REPEAL OF ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.] Mr. Secretary
Windham
General Tarleton
begged to call the attention of the house to the papers that had been printed since the right hon. gent. had opened his sketch of the measures he had proposed to bring forward. These papers would shew that the bill, now proposed to be repealed, afforded the best means of obtaining a supply for the army, as it was now in full force, and all the difficulties which it had encountered were got over. He hoped the house would interpose its authority to prevent the country from being deprived of its effects. He called on gentlemen to examine these papers, in order to prepare themselves for the debate on the 2d reading of the bill.
Mr. Hawthorne
concurred with the hon. general in hoping that gentlemen would come prepared to judge of the bill, after having read the papers on the table, which, he was convinced would satisfy them that the bill had completely failed.
Mr. Perceval
recommended to the house, in his turn, an examination of these papers, because he was sure the result would be the reverse of what had been stated by the hon. member who preceded him. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) who had brought forward the measure, had stated last session, that on the average of the 3 weeks preceding the 6th of March, that year, it had produced nearly 200 per week, and on the average of the 3 months preceding, it would produce 9 or 10,000 in the year. And in the 50 weeks ending the 14th of last March, it had produced above 9000 men. In the last 15 weeks it had produced an average of 258 per week, which would give 13,200 in the year; in the last 10 weeks an average of 277, or 14,600 in the year; and in the last five weeks, an average of 356 per week, being at the rate of above 18,000 in the year; and this under all the discouragements which interfered with its operation. They would also find by the papers, that the bill had not been effectual in the first instance, because it had not been understood. When it had been explained by the inspecting field officers, the
793
Lord Temple
thought the house obliged to the learned gent. for the course of reading he recommended; but was of opinion that they should adopt a more enlarged system of education. He begged the house would consider not so much the number of men raised, as the means by which they were raised, and the manner in which the bill had been received in the country.
Colonel Craufurd
observed, that the hon. gent. opposite seemed to assume that the whole of the men had been raised by the provisions of the bill. He, on the contrary, was persuaded that not a man had been obtained but by means extraneous to the bill, every one of whom would have been produced if no such bill had been in existence: 16 guineas bounty were given for the regular army; 12 were given for this force, and 10 afterwards on entering the line, so that by this means the individual obtained a bounty of 22 guineas. —The bill was then read a first time; and on the question that it be read a second time,
Mr. Canning
gave notice, that on the day on which this bill should be fixed for a 2d reading, he should move to defer that stage of the bill, till such time as the house should have an opportunity of judging of the measures to be brought forward by the right hon. gent. This bill was for the repeal of a measure, that afforded a resource to a certain extent to provide even for the army. He did not mean to discuss the merits of that measure, but was sure the house would do right not to get rid of it until they should know what was to be substituted for it. The course he should take would be not to get rid of the present bill, but to suspend its progress till they should be able to judge of the value of the measures to be brought forward. The right hon. gent. appeared to have proceeded in an inverted order, by proposing to repeal a measure that afforded a resource to a certain extent, before he was prepared to bring forward a substitute. He should not propose to defer the second reading of the bill beyond the present session, but for such a period as would allow the house an opportunity of judging, whether they were to look to any thing as a substitute for the measure to be repealed but visions, projects, and fancies.
Mr. Secretary Fox
794
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, April 18.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Mr. Giles,
and several other members of the commons, brought up a message, containing a list of witnesses to be produced in the trial of lord Melville, and requesting that their lordships would take measures to summon such witnesses to attend on the 29th inst., and to bring with them such books, papers, and documents, as were marked against their respective names.—On the motion of lord Walsingham, a message was ordered to be sent to the commons, containing a compliance with the above request.—Lord Walsingham also moved, that Mr. Wyatt should attend the house on Monday, to state what progress had been made in the preparations for the trial of lord Melville, and when the fitting up of the court was likely to be finished. Ordered.—It was likewise ordered, that the lord chancellor should send letters to the peers of the blood royal, informing them of the day fixed for the trial of lord Melville, and requesting their attendance.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, April 18.
[MINUTES.]
New writs were ordered to be issued for the county of Wicklow, in the room of the right hon. George Ponsonby, who, since his election, had accepted of the office of lord high chancellor of Ireland; and for the county of Galway, in the room of D. B. Daley, esq. who since his election, had accepted the office of joint muster-master-general of the forces in Ireland.—Mr. Giles moved, that a message be sent to the lords, with a list of
795
[EX-PARTE CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS BILL.] Mr. Serjeant Best
rose, agreeably to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill, for preventing all interlocutory or
ex parte
796
l
ex parte
ex parte
ex parte
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.]
On the motion of Mr. Paull, two several orders of the house of the 11th and 17th March, 1806, were read; the former, ordering the production of certain papers relative to Bhurtpore; and the latter to Surat: and
797
Sir A. Wellesley
requested that the hon. gent. who was about to bring a charge against the marquis Wellesley, would state the distinct nature of the charge, and of the course of proceeding which he intended to adopt.
Mr. Paull
replied, that it was his intention on Tuesday, to lay the ground of a charge against marquis Wellesley, for extravagant expenditure of the public money, and for having applied it to purposes of unnecessary splendour, contrary to an act of parliament. With regard to the course of proceeding, he did originally mean to move, that evidence be heard at the bar of the house in the first instance; but he had heard strong objections to this mode by several members, who urged the propriety of laying the charge before the adduction of proof. The hon. gent. was proceeding to read a passage in a printed report of a speech of Mr. Burke's, on the impeachment of Mr. Hastings, in corroboration of this opinion, when he was called to order by lord Temple, who protested against this as irregular.
Mr. Paull
then proceeded to lay the ground of his motion, and stated, at some length, from papers, letters, and other documents, the circumstances of a treaty entered into with the nabob of Furruckabad, soon after the arrival of the marquis Cornwallis in India, and which was afterwards guaranteed by the East-India Co. The conditions of this treaty were, that the nabob should disband his own native troops, and be in future ,protected by a British force, for which he was to pay a subsidy of 50,000
l
l
798
Lord Castlereagh
having been alluded to in the course of the speech, thought it proper set the hon. gent. right in a mistake which seemed a strong feature in his argument. The hon. gent. expressed his surprise, that he should have moved for a dispatch from the secret committee, approving of the conduct of the noble marquis; but if the hon. gent. thought to impress the house with the opinion, that that was the dispatch of the gentlemen, whose names he mentioned, he must suppose the house to be more ignorant of the course of these proceedings, than he would and it to be. The house was too well in-
799
Mr. Paull
explained, that what be stated to have excited his surprise, was, that the noble lord should call for such a paper, after he was fully apprised that the court of directors had protested against it.
Lord Castlereagh
rejoined, in explanation, that what he called for, was the dispatch of those to whom responsibility attached, which was not the case with the gentlemen who signed it.
Mr. Hiley Addington
said, that the hon. gent. might have saved himself much trouble, and the house a good deal of time, had he merely moved for the papers in question, without entering into such a long preliminary detail on the subject. He had not the slightest wish to oppose the production of the papers; neither should he say one word on the subject of the charges that had been advanced. He should only request the house to keep themselves free from every bias that might be produced by what had been said, and to sacrifice some time in investigating the documents now moved for.
Mr. Whitshed Keene
thought, that in the management of an immense empire like India, it was possible that a governor-general might, for the salvation of the country, be obliged, in some instance or another, to violate the strict letter of the law, and yet deserve the thanks of the country. He had himself been 38 years a member of parliament; he had heard almost every thing that had been said in that house upon the affairs of India, and had read all the documents that had been printed; and he thought that no member was qualified to vote a censure on the governor-general for any particular transaction, without having studied very much in detail the whole system of the Indian administration, and the various treaties which were contracted with the native powers, and also the manner in which those treaties were observed by the native powers.
Mr. Francis
said, that the particular appeal made to him, justified him in saying a few
800
801
Mr. Secretary Fox
begged leave to trouble the house with a few words, in answer to what had fallen from his hon. friend. His hon. friend near him seemed to hint, that he (Mr. FOX) and others who agreed with him, had, in opposition to their former conduct, wished to disparage this proceeding, and to throw obstacles in the way. There was not the smallest foundation for such suspicions, nor were there any grounds whatever for arraigning his conduct on that head. As to the speech of his hon. friend (Mr. Francis), he had undoubtedly said, that it was unanswerable; not meaning to make this broad assertion absolutely, but because, in fact, no attempt had ever been made to answer it. He approved of it certainly, altogether, and partly, perhaps, for this reason among others, that there his hon. friend had professed to drop all idea of proceeding to an impeachment. Yet it was rather hard that he should think it incumbent on those who thought that there was a great deal of blame somewhere, and that a bad system had been pursued, to support an impeachment or any motion for criminal proceedings. He totally disclaimed any such idea. It might happen that a person might disapprove a bad system without being committed to support a criminal charge. When a bad system of government prevailed, the best mode of remedying this was not, in general, by impeaching an individual. The object was, to remove the person who carried on such a system, and to take care that none such should be acted upon in future; and, this being obtained, it might often be inexpedient to carry the matter any farther. But, at the same time, there might be particular acts, of so enormous a kind as to call for
802
803
804
Mr. Paull
said, he did not undertake this cause with a view to popularity, but merely from a sense of duty. It was his intention to follow the precedents he had before him with respect to Mr. Hastings. He meant, on Tuesday, to produce his charge, and move to lay it on the table; and, that a future day should be then fixed, to take it into consideration. Mr. Burke had laid his first charge against Mr. Hastings on the table, on the 5th of April, and it was not taken into consideration till the 8th of June. The hon. gent. expressed his thanks to the right hon. secretary, for the candid and liberal manner in which he had conducted himself.
Mr. H. Addington
desired to know, whether it was the intention of the hon gent. to move for any documents to support his charge, when it should be laid on the table?
Mr. Paull
replied, that if the house should agree to his motion for laying the charge on the table, he should move to have it taken into consideration on a future day. He proposed to move for documents in support of it, and evidence to be taken at the bar, but not till the house should first decide whether they contained impeachable matter. On Friday, he proposed to bring forward his two next charges relative to disobedience of orders, and the assumption of rights contrary to law, which he should follow up by moving, that they be taken into consideration on a subsequent day.
Mr. Grant
observed, that in the general the opinion of the court of directors prevailed. He thought that the system of checks was the best system for India affairs. The board of controul was a check on the court of directors, and they on the other hand were a check on tine board of controul. When differences on grave subjects prevailed, it was material that the opinions of all the parties should be brought under consideration. If the house entertained the question, it should sift it to the bottom, with a view to obtain substantial justice to all the parties.
Mr. Johnstone
said, it appeared clearly that the opinions of the directors were totally overruled by the board of controul, and the treaties with the Vizier, with Oude, and the Nizam, were convincing proofs of it. His sentiments, with regard to the affairs of India, were still the same as they had ever been; but instead of pressing questions regarding impeachments, he thought the house would do better to adopt resolutions, which might in future
805
Mr. W. Smith
having understood, that he had had the misfortune of falling under the censure of his hon. friend (Mr. Francis, see p. 800), on a former day for a temporary absence, and having heard the same censure repeated against a right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) this day, rose to state, for the consolation of his hon. friend and the house, that his absence had in part been occasioned, in the former instance, by his waiting on that hon. friend, to ascertain the part he meant to take on the occasion, and that his right hon. friend remained of his former opinion, and would attend in his place whenever the subject should be brought forward.—The several motions were then agreed to.
[SLAVE IMPORTATION BILL.]
On the motion for the second reading of this bill,
General Gascoyne,
disapproved of the principle of the bill altogether, and asked whether counsel might not be heard against it at a future stage; and was informed by the speaker that they might.
Sir W. Young
approved of the principle of the bill, which he considered as a boon to the West-India merchants, and stated that he had been at a numerous meeting of London merchants, where; a majority had agreed with him.
General Gascoyne
again rose, and was called to order by Mr. Wilberforce; but being informed by the speaker that he was in order, he proceeded to state that, in his opinion, this bill was a scheme indirectly to abolish the slave trade, which could not be done in an open and direct manner.
Sir W. Curtis
thought the slave trade an evil that could not be remedied, but he never purchased a slave himself. He heard nothing of the meeting of merchants adverted to by the hon. baronet.
Mr. Brooke
approved the principle of the bill, which he considered as beneficial to the West-India merchants.—The bill was then read a 2d time.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, April 21.
[MINUTES.]
The royal assent was given by commission to the 2O Millions loan bill, the Irish Treasury bills bill, the Irish Militia Service bill, the Cape of Good Hope Trade bill, and the British Fishery bills.—The earl of Kinnoul was sworn, and took his seat, as baron Hay, on his lordship's attaining his majority.
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTIVELY PRUS-
806
presented the following message from his majesty:
"G. R. His majesty thinks it proper to acquaint the house of lords, that he has found himself under the necessity of withdrawing his ministers from the court of Berlin, and of adopting provisionally measures of just retaliation against the commerce and navigation of Prussia. His maj. deeply regrets this extension and aggravation of calamities, already so severely felt by the nations of the continent, whose independence and prosperity he has never ceased to consider as intimately connected with those of his own people. But measures of direct hostility, deliberately adopted against him, have left him no alternative.—In a moment of confidential intercourse, without even the pretence of any cause of complaint, forcible possession has been taken by Prussia of his maj.'s electoral dominions. Deeply as this event affected the interests of this kingdom, his maj. chose, nevertheless, to forbear, on this painful occasion, all recourse to the tried and affectionate attachment of his British subjects. He remonstrated, by amicable negotiation; against the injury he had sustained, and rested his claim for reparation on the moderation of his conduct, on the justice of his representation, and on the common interest which Prussia herself must ultimately feel, to resist a system destructive of the security of all legitimate possession. But when, instead of receiving assurances conformable to this just expectation, his maj. was informed that the determination had been taken of excluding, by force, the vessels and the commodities of this kingdom from ports and countries under the lawful dominion, or forcible controul of Prussia; his maj. could no longer delay to act without neglecting the first duty which he owes to his people. The dignity of his crown, and the interests of his subjects, equally forbid his acquiescing in this open and unprovoked aggression. He has no doubt of the full support of his parliament, in vindicating the honour of the British flag, and the freedom of the British navigation; and he will look with anxious expectation to that moment, when a more dignified and enlightened policy, on the part of Prussia, shall remove every impediment to the renewal of peace and friendship with a power with whom his maj. has no other cause of difference than that now crea ed by these hostile acts."
807
[ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN SCOTLAND.] Lord Grenville said,
he rose to give notice on a subject of considerable importance to a great number of his maj.'s subjects, and also to that house, with respect to a part of its proceedings. He alluded to the Administration of Justice in Scotland, with respect to the forms of which, he believed, it was the opinion of the bar in that country, and the general opinion, that an alteration might be made with great advantage to all those who were suitors in the courts. Far was it from him to say that the system of legal proceedings in Scotland was not one wisely established, but, in the lapse of time, it had become, in some of its parts, inferior to the system established in England, which had stood the test of so many ages, and which still retained all its original beauty and purity. Far was it from him to say, that the laws of Scotland were not administered with the greatest purity. There was, however, one consideration of the greatest importance, namely, that justice ought to be speedily administered, otherwise, in many cases, it ceased to be justice. Their lordships had taken upon themselves to be a court of dernier resort for all parts of the united kingdom, to the execution of which important business much of their time had been devoted. Notwithstanding, however, all their diligence and attention, the number of appeals from Scotland now on the table of the house, which were yet undecided, shewed that they had arrived at that point when they must either declare that they could not do justice to the parties appealing to their decision, or take some measure to reduce the number of appeals from that country. It was doubtless of the greatest importance in every case, that the dispatch of business should keep pace with the business which actually arose. He was afraid he could not promise any measure upon this subject in the course of the present session; and, though some might complain of this delay, it was nevertheless of the greatest importance that such a measure should be carefully digested, and receive every advantage which could be derived from the suggestions of those who had a thorough knowledge of the Scottish law. The mode he
808
The Duke of Montrose
expressed in the strongest terms the infinite satisfaction he felt, in finding that a measure of such consequence was taken up by a noble lord for whom he entertained such high esteem, and whose talents were so adequate to the undertaking and success of measures of such size and consequence; and he was confident he might safely venture to assert, that the noble lord would have the sincere and unanimous thanks of the whole country, for whose benefit he had so generously undertaken it.
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Lord Holland
said, he had to apologise, that the bill upon this subject was not yet in perfect readiness to be laid before their lordships; but its main object was to enable his majesty in council to grant certain powers to the governors of those islands to regulate that intercourse, as far as it regarded the importation, &c. of provisions and lumber, from the ports of America into those of our West-India colonies. The bill would shortly be laid before their lordships, and he should propose that it be read a 2d time on Thursday next.
The Duke of Montrose
observed, that he was one of those who certainly thought the measure of a much more serious nature than it seemed to be considered by those who introduced it. They did not seem to be aware of the great amount of the tonnage, and of the great number of seamen who were employed in that trade. He was persuaded that the shipping amounted to no less than 101,090 tons, and the seamen to 6500. To prove this assertion, the noble lord concluded with moving for certain papers, by which, he said, all he had advanced would be fully confirmed.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Mr. Wyatt,
surveyor-general of his majesty's works appeared at the bar, and in answer to the question put to him by the
809
Lord Walsingham
read the report of the committee, to whom it was referred to search for precedents respecting their lordships' modes of proceeding on former cases of impeachment: which report was ordered to be taken into consideration on Wednesday.
Lord Auckland
moved, that the house should proceed on the trial of lord Melville
de die in diem
The Earl of Radnor
moved that the further consideration of this motion should also be postponed till Wednesday.—The earl of Rosslyn and the lord chancellor opposed this motion, on the ground of its being unnecessary, it being already the general and decided opinion of the house, that they ought to proceed on the trial
de die in diem
The Earl of Radnor
opposed it, conceiving that 4 days in the week were as many as the house could devote to the trial, consistently with that attention which they must necessarily pay to other business. He declined, however, proposing any alteration in the motion.—The motion was then put and carried.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, April 21.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Whitbread moved, that a message be sent to the lords, with a list of the witnesses whom he proposed to have summoned by their lordships to attend the trial of lord Melville. Ordered.
810
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Lord Archibald Hamilton
rose, in consequence of the notice which he had previously given, of a motion for a paper containing the opinion of the court of directors relative to the transactions in India, during the administration of lord Wellesley. Before he proceeded to make his motion, he hoped the house would allow him to preface it by a few preliminary observations. He first apologised for himself in taking up this business, but he was placed in this situation by the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Huddlestone) having abandoned his original intention of moving for this paper. He disclaimed all idea of moving for it with a view to its being made aground of charge or a point of evidence against lord Wellesley. Much as he disapproved of the system upon which that noble lord acted, he had no intention of this kind. There would be sufficient opportunity afterwards for his declaring his opinion on that subject. His object moving for this paper then
811
812
Mr. Hudleston
Sir, as I had given repeated notice of intending to move for papers which would have included an extract from the most important of those now moved for by the noble lord, I should have felt it necessary to offer a few words on the present occasion, even if I had not been particularly alluded to by the noble lord, lest my silence now, should be as much misconstrued, as I find the motive has been which induced me to relinquish my intention of bringing forward those motions. The noble lord, by way of distinguishing his own object from mine, has stated, that his is not to criminate lord Wellesley. Whenever an investigation may take place on the important subject of the state of our affairs in India, I trust I shall not shrink from the discussion. But, in respect to my motive for wishing the papers in question to be before the house, the facts are briefly and simply these. A discussion in this house near the close of the last session, had given an impression, both here and without doors, that the executive body of the East-India Co. had approved of certain treaties concluded at Oude, and transactions connected with them. A paper certainly very favourable to that idea, had been moved for, and ordered to be laid before the house, in which approbation of those transactions is expressed under the hands of the secret committee of the court of directors. Now, sir, knowing that the court of directors had not even been made acquainted with those transactions until two years after the date of that letter, and that, on their becoming acquainted with them, they had recorded
813
814
815
l
Mr. Secretary Fox
declared that it was with regret he heard that such a motion as the present was to be made; and more especially that it was to be made by two persons for whom he had a great respect (Mr. Huddlestone and Mr. R. Thornton). But the pain which he felt was not a little increased when he found it was to be made by the noble lord near him (Hamilton) for whom he had the highest esteem, whose personal regard he would wish to conciliate, and with whom he would always desire to cultivate a political connection; for to him that noble lord's ideas respecting the constitution, and his sentiments on political subjects in general, appeared to rest on principles so just, and well founded, that it gave him the greatest concern to differ from him, even in the application of those principles to any particular point. But he thought that the present question ought to be considered with a view to the judicial enquiry about to come before the house, and therefore our attention ought to be directed to justice alone. Now, viewing the matter in this light, he could not reconcile
816
817
818
Mr. Johnstone
said, that the degree of astonishment under which he rose to present himself to the house, after what had just fallen from the right hon. secretary, scarcely left him the power of utterance. When that right hon. gent. and his friends were on the opposition side of the house, he always understood them to be not only the warm friends, but the loud and strenuous advocates for investigation on Indian affairs. They had repeatedly asserted, and
819
820
Mr. Hiley Addington
declared that nothing ever astonished him more than the astonishment expressed by the hon. member in rising to answer the speech of his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox); and in the whole of what had fallen from that right hon. gent., his opinion so fully coincided, that he felt it unnecessary to add any thing further upon points so ably and so eloquently elucidated. The noble lord who brought forward this motion, had professed, that he had no intention thereby to criminate the conduct of marquis Wellesley. He was willing to give the noble lord full credit for sincerity in his declaration; but yet he thought it was impossible, if those papers were produced, but that they must give rise to opinions injurious to his character, and strongly tend to excite prejudices against him. The document alluded to certainly was laid upon the table of the court of proprietors, by an hon. gent. who certainly conceived it to be a confidential communication. It had, by some underhand means, he understood, found its way into print, and it contained a series of opinions in condemnation of the conduct of
821
Mr. R. Thornton
having felt himself particularly alluded to in the course of the debate, thought himself called on to state his feelings and opinions. The house, in refusing to comply with the noble lord's motion, would voluntarily shut its own eyes and keep itself in darkness and ignorance when the fullest information was absolutely necessary. If he had been heretofore backward in moving to bring those documents forth, it was not because he thought them unimportant or unnecessary, but in deference to the opinions of the right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox), the weight of whose talents and influence he understood would be against him. But now that the motion was brought before the house, it placed him in quite a different situation. Notwithstanding the resistance given to the noble lord, he was convinced, if the house did but even suspect what were the contents of the documents moved for, and the importance of the question it would be so speedily called to discuss, it would be extremely anxious to have them produced. The embarrassed situation of the company's affairs in consequence of the wars in India, was well known to the house. It was equally well known, that differences of opinion had long subsided between the court of directors, and the board of controul, respecting Indian affairs; and that the directions forwarded to India by the court of directors had not been obeyed. But when the house was told that the Indian system was to be reformed, that the board of controul was to be changed, and that an entirely new system was to be adopted, was it not important the house should be put in possession of the opinions of the court of directors, as to what were the errors of the former system, in order to judge how India ought to be governed? Was it
822
l
Lord Castlereagh
observed, that although the professed object of the motion of the noble lord was that of criminating the late board of controul, that certainly was not the whole object of it. He had no disposition to conceal any thing, and therefore as such he would have no objection to any document which could be called for; but it would give him more satisfaction, if these docu-
823
824
825
Mr. Paull
said a few words expressive of his determination to lay before the house to-morrow, criminating charges against the marquis of Wellesley; and also of his surprise that Mr. Fox should not have supported the motion of the noble lord tonight, instead of moving the previous question upon it.
Lord H. Petty
was desirous of explaining the reason for his vote on this occasion, which should be for the previous question moved by his right hon. friend. With his noble friend who opened this debate, he had the happiness to concur on general and great constitutional principles; and he trusted he should long have that happiness uninterrupted by casual differences upon minor points. He thought it important to the public, that the paper now called for should, at some time or other, be introduced, and in voting for the previous question he should be sorry that any one should conceive him to alter his opinion on the subject of the publicity of all sorts of necessary documents for the information of the house. All he conceived to be the effect of the previous question was this, that the production of the paper moved for at this particular moment should be suspended until the accusation against the noble marquis should be disposed of one way or the other, that accusation being of a criminating nature, and the authority of this paper could not be made use of in the house in voting on that accusation. This paper contained the opinion of certain individuals on the conduct of that noble lord, and was a necessary piece of information for the house some time or other; but not so at present, for it was an authority which it would be unjust for the house to weigh when considering the conduct of the noble marquis. The house would form its judgment of that noble marquis from his actions, and not from the opinion of others. Although the house might hereafter possess itself of the information which the paper contained, the house, in voting for the previous question now, only suspended the production of the paper until the pending accusation against the noble marquis should be disposed of one way or other, and then the paper might very properly be called for in order to the general discussion of India affairs.
Mr. W. Smith
said, he had so great a sense of the importance of the paper that he would vote for the production of it even under the present circumstances, if it
826
Dr. Laurence
strenuously supported the original motion for the production of the dispatch in question, as a necessary piece of information. He did not think it wise to depend much on the personal character and qualities of individuals in the conduct of public affairs, although he had no exceptions to take to those who had been alluded to on this occasion. It was childish to say abuses should be suffered to go on because enquiry was inconvenient. To abstain from the production of a paper of the most useful general nature, because part of the information it contained might be applied to a particular question, he looked upon as foolish and absurd. The questions on the marquis Wellesley's conduct were so plain and direct, that they could be easily decided upon, without having recourse to collateral or remote matter, which nobody would think of connecting with them.
Mr. Grant (late chairman of the India Company)
said, that whatever his opinion might be of the system of measures pursued in India, in the latter years of lord Wellesley's administration, as indeed of many of those measures he could not help thinking very unfavourably, yet he was no way concerned in bringing forward the enquiries respecting them, which as hon. member (Mr. Paull) had agitated in that house. It was not the practice of the court of directors, to bring impeachments before parliament. They were not represented in
827
828
829
830
Lord Temple
said, it was necessary to explain, that this proposed dispatch, condemning the administration of lord Wellesley had not been prepared till 4 or 5 years of his government had expired. The authorities he had to look to for the guidance of his conduct had not till then expressed any dissatisfaction. It was at the request of the court of directors that lord Wellesley retained the government in 1802. This dispatch of disapprobation had not been proposed to the board of controul till the noble marquis was on the seas to return to this country, and had never reached him. He wished for the production of every paper tending to elucidate the case, but this did not bear on the case, and it went to excite prejudices of the most unjust nature.
Mr. Windham
though sorry to differ from certain right hon. friends of his upon the
831
The Master of the Rolls
observed, that nothing could be more widely different than the grounds which had been taken by the different gentlemen who were for the production of these papers. Some supported it as the means of exculpating the board of directors, and others as justifying the conduct of lord Wellesley; while another hon. gent. seemed to consider, that the great advantage in producing the papers would be to interest the house in the affairs of India, and combine them with the enquiries that were to be made. All parties, however, appeared to agree in this conclusion, that it would be most unjust and unfair that
832
Mr. Alexander
disapproved of the motion, and thought the house, in ordering the production moved for, would resemble a grand jury examining evidence, not for the purpose of trying the validity of the charge, but with a view to make new accusations. This practice he deprecated as illegal and unjust.
Mr. Fuller
thought it quite inconsistent to refuse the production of a document in that house, which had obtained such publicity out of doors, and which was so material to inform gentlemen upon the subject to which it referred.
Mr. Wilberforce
said, that on account of his long and private friendship with the marquis Wellesley, he had hitherto forborne to deliver his opinion on these subjects; but he could not see how the production of this paper could at all affect his case. The fact was, that the paper was substantially before the house, and already printed; but it was printed in a surreptitious manner, without the name of any bookseller prefixed to it, and circulated in an indirect way. He therefore thought it would be much better that it should come before them regularly and officially. The govern-
833
Mr. Sheridan
said, he perfectly agreed with the right hon. gent. who spoke last, that the court of directors should certainly have an opportunity, at a proper time, of putting the house in possession of their sentiments upon the affairs of India; but it did not appear to him that the present was the proper time, when the production of the paper might have an effect on the question of impeachment, which the house were to decide on. It had been observed by every body, that the paper ought not to have any influence upon that question. It therefore appeared to him better, that it should not be produced until it was decided. He. concluded by suggesting a resolution, "that the altered dispatch of the 3d of April, 1805, had not the sanction of the court of directors."
The Speaker
suggested to the hon. gent. that it would be necessary first to put the previous question.
Lord A. Hamilton
shortly replied to the arguments that had been urged against his motion, and disclaimed the idea of having brought it forward with any view of prejudicing the case of the noble marquis.
Mr. Windham
observed, that one great objection to the resolution proposed by his right hon. friend was, that the house would thus adopt a resolution for which they had no authority before them.
Lord Castlereagh
in reply to a question put by Mr. Fox, stated, that the dispatch respecting the treaty of Oude, in 1803, had been first drawn up by the court of directors, and altered by the commissioners of the board of controul. In every thing that did not relate to questions of war or peace,
834
Mr. Jervis
was of opinion that a period might arrive when it would be proper to produce this paper; but he thought it was not proper now. The house ought not to receive any thing against lord Wellesley that would not be received in a court of equity.
Mr. R. Thornton
said, the house appeared to him to be in a great error in matter of fact. The court of directors had first written a dispatch, which censured strongly some part of lord Wellesley's conduct. The board of controul altered that dispatch in a great many respects, and softened down several of the expressions; but still what remained was, as far as it went, the opinion of the court of directors. A right hon. gent. had conceived an improper opinion of the court of directors, if he supposed they could be absolutely forced to sign papers contrary to their opinion. If there were no other way of avoiding that, they had at least the liberty to resign their situations.—The question was then called for, and, on the house dividing, there appeared
For Lord A. Hamilton's motion
27
For the previous question
121
Majority for the previous question
94
List of the Minority.
Andover, Lord
Moore, P.
Babington, T.
Paull, J.
Fane,—
Porcher, J. D.
Fonblanque, J.
Praed, W.
Francis, P.
Prinsep, J.
Fuller, J.
Robarts, J.
Grant, C.
Thellusson, G. W.
Huddleston, J.
Thornton, R.
Hutchinson, C. H.
Wilberforce, W.
Inglis, sir H.
Windham, W.
Keck, A.
TELLERS.
Laurence, F.
Hamilton, Lord A.
Mills, C.
Johnstone, G.
Mills, W.
[INTERCOURSE BETWEEN AMERICA AND THE WEST-INDIA ISLANDS.] Mr. Rose
pursuant to notice, called the attention of the house to the intercourse between the United States and our West-India colonies. The right hon. gent. entered into a detailed account of the trade of the colonies, and the manner in which they had been supplied with provisions and lumber, previous to the relaxation of the navigation law, in order to allow them to receive supplies of these articles from the United States, &c. in the shipping of America. When the first application was made to govt. to grant this indulgence to the West-India planters, a commission of enquiry was appointed, and
835
836
837
Lord H. Petty
had no hesitation in avowing the intention to make that transfer of responsibility of which the right hon. gent. professed to disapprove, and he had no doubt that it would prove to be a most beneficial change. The house and the country must feel, that the most convenient way of supplying our West-India islands was from America; and the object of the proposed arrangement was, that this supply should be regular; that the colonies should be protected from the scarcities and fluctuations of supply, which had been productive of so much calamity and desolation. It was material to humanity and justice, that some fixed determination should be come to upon the subject. Sooner than leave it in its present state of uncertainty, it would be even better to declare, that the islands must be wholly supplied from G. Britain. It was highly necessary that some system should be established, and that matters should not be left to the discretion or cession of governors. The conduct of the last administration, to which the measure belonged, shewed that the relaxation of the law, which the right hon. gent. would now draw
838
Lord Castlereagh
said he could never consent to any measure that went so materially to affect the commerce and shipping interest of the country as the one about to be adopted by his majesty's ministers. The rule had been, and it was the rule he always wished to see observed, that whenever such importations as those in question were permitted, the persons permitting them should act not according but contrary to law; and that it should afterwards be in the discretion of parliament, according to the nature or necessity of the case, to indemnify them for their breach of a positive law.
Mr. Fuller
said, there was a certain fatality attending some men, which was that they never were able to abandon any opinion they had once adopted, however etroneous it might be. This seemed to be now the case with those who in their devotion for the navigation laws, would suffer the West Indies to be ruined, and their inhabitants starved for want of necessaries Had not the governors of the islands permitted the importation of provisions, the inhabitants of the islands would have perished. But governors might not always be disposed to act on their responsibility, and the islands might be in want. He wished to know how they could be supplied by British ships? At this moment we were not able to get seamen to man our navy, much less to send ships out to carry on a circuitous trade to America, and thence to the West Indies. The export of
839
Sir W. Young
approved of the measure about to be adopted by ministers; as did also
Mr. Barham
who said that so great was the scarcity of shipping to carry away the produce of the plantations, that he had 200 hogsheads of rum lying at one time for 6 months, without any means of sending them away. As to British ships carrying on the trade to the colonies which the Americans did, none would be found to do it.
Mr. Rose
said, that the trade was sufficiently profitable to afford a temptation to our merchants to carry it on.—The motions were then agreed to.
[SLAVE IMPORTATION BILL.]
On the order for going into a committee on the Slave Importation bill,
Mr. Rose
said, it was the duty of the house seriously to consider how the passing of such an act as this might affect the trade and manufactures of the country. On that very evening a message had been brought down from his majesty, with an account of acts of hostility practised against this country by Prussia, and he hoped there would be but one opinion in that house, and in the country, as to the course we ought to pursue on such an occasion. The house must be aware that the exclusion of our vessels from Prussian ports would materially affect the export of our manufactures, and on that account he did not wish to see any measure adopted which should serve to increase that evil. If the trade carried on to the coast of Africa was diminished, not only would the sale of British commodities be diminished, but the trade itself would be taken up by the Americans; and on the score of humanity, it was much better it should be carried on by this country, on account of the superior good treatment which slaves met with in British ships.—The bill was then committed.
840
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 22.
[MINUTES.]
The West-India Governors Indemnity bill was read a 3d time and passed.—On the motion of lord Auckland, the order for taking the report of the Impeachment Proceedings Committee into consideration to-morrow, was discharged, and the report was ordered to be referred to the said committed for revision, &c.—Earl Stanhope moved, that the order for committing the bill for the more effectually Discovering of Truth from Witnesses, should be Further postponed till the 19th of May, which was ordered accordingly.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, April 22.
[MINUTES.]
The hon. Henry Erskine (lord advocate of Scotland) and Mr. Wickham took the oaths and their seats.—Mr. Whitbread moved, that a committee be appointed to view the court erected in Westminster-hall for the trial of lord Viscount Melville, and to report what accommodation and convenience had been made for the members of the house when present at the said trial, and that the managers for conducting the impeachment should be the said committee; which motions were agreed to.—He moved also, that the order be read from the journals, made on the 13th July, 1805, for the attorney-general to institute a prosecution against lord Melville and Mr. Trotter, and which was since suspended, should be read by the clerk, which was agreed to; and the order being then read, he moved that the said original order be discharged, which was carried accordingly.—The order of the day being read for taking into consideration his majesty's message, Mr. Fox observed, that as it would be more convenient for the members to take the message into consideration to-morrow, he should move, that the said order be discharged, which was agreed to. He then moved, that it be taken into consideration to-morrow. Ordered.
[VOLUNTEER ESTABLISHMENT.] Mr. Perceval
in rising to move for the paper, of which he had given notice, thought it necessary to state the reasons which induced him to submit such a motion, and the object which he had in view. This paper, he was ready distinctly and clearly to say, was meant to apply to that part of the right hon. secretary's argument upon which he seemed so much to rely in the discussion of a former evening, and which in reality formed. in that right hon. gent.'s own judg-
841
842
843
844
Mr. Secretary Fox
did not rise to object to the motion of the hon. gent., because, without such a motion, it was intended by his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) to lay this document before the house. But the hon. gent.'s speech and his motion being far from the same thing, he must say, that although he acquiesced in the one, he very much objected to several parts of the other. The hon. gent.'s observation, that the volunteers should, before they took a strong impression as to his right hon. friend's plan, wait the decision of parliament, was certainly, unexceptionable; but he could not help observing that that sentiment very ill consisted with other parts of the hon. gent.'s speech. When a person of understanding, competent to conceive the proceedings of that house, was found to misrepresent words which it was impossible to misconceive, it was not difficult to infer his object. Nothing could have been more explicit than the meaning of his right hon. friend. When he alluded to a relaxation of discipline, he meant merely that the volunteers should only be seldomer called out to exercise, and that being obvious, it ought to have been beneath the hon. gent. to catch at words. Was it possible that the hon. gent. could be so mistaken as to understand that any intention existed of disbanding the volunteers? Sure he was, that if his right hon. friend entertained any such intention, he had concealed it from him. That his right hon. friend said any thing, on the day alluded to, to warrant such an inference, he most peremptorily and absolutely de-
845
Mr. Perceval
in explanation, said he might have misunderstood the meaning of .the right hon. secretary, as it was now explained. But from the words used, and the concomitant circumstances, of allowing no. drill serjeants, no inspecting field-officers, no permanent duty, he left it to the house to judge, whether he was not warranted
846
Mr. Fox
in explanation said, the hon. gent. was equally called upon to acquit his majesty's ministers of having done any thing offensive to the volunteers.
Lord Castlereagh
had never heard any speech of the right hon. gent. with more pleasure than that which he had now closed. Whether from the discontents expressed in the house, or those expressed out of it, or from whatsoever cause, the bill brought forward was extremely different from the opening view of the right hon. gent. who had brought it forward. He wished that the amendment might be carried still further; that the branch of the military establishment appropriated to foreign service, might also escape the innovating grasp of the right hon. gent.; and that the destructive reform he meditated might be sacrificed either to the public disapprobation, or the right hon. gent.'s own better consideration. He should be sorry to pin any man to a particular expression that might have escaped him in the warmth of debate; but the expression alluded to, was too distinct to be liable to misunderstanding or misinterpretation. The right hon. gent. had expressly spoken of loosening the discipline of the volunteer force. The right hon. gent. had besides opened his speech with lamenting, that the stage was occupied by the volunteers. The right hon. gent. might not have been prepared to proceed to the immediate dissolution of the volunteer force; but he called on the house to recollect, that the right hon. gent. in agreeing to grant clothing for this year, expressly withheld himself from any pledge
847
Mr. Francis
to order, asked whether this was a motion on the general subject of the volunteer force? for if it was a mere motion for papers, it was very wrong to go into it at such a length without notice.
Mr. Paull
stated the right to the attention of the house to belong to his motion, of which a long notice had been given, and not to this of which there had been no notice.
The Speaker
said, there had been a notice of the motion for papers relating to the volunteer force. The motion had certainly branched out into a more general range than such a motion seemed to require. But it was in the discretion of the house to permit or to restrain such extraneous proceedings. He did not feel warranted in interposing to check it before, nor did be now.
Lord Castlereagh
said he bad been natu-
848
Mr. Windham
was glad his right hon. friend had stepped forward to answer the learned gent. who had brought forward this motion. He had himself been thrown into an agitation which rendered it not quite fit for him to stand up, not by the poignancy of the wit of the learned gent. who had introduced this debate, but by a sort of figure of speech adopted by the learned gent. which excited feelings in him which it was fit to keep down, and to forbear addressing the house, till they had given place to feelings of a cooler nature. Part of the arguments urged on the other side, applied to questions very proper to be discussed at another time, when the measure that gave rise to these questions should be before the house. The other part called not so much for argument, as for flat contradiction. It was an open undisguised mistatement of what he had said on a former night. He had not only never said, but he had never thought of what had been imputed to him. The learned gent. had expressed an anxiety to explain the object of his motion. It was not necessary to explain the object of the mover. That was clear, and he should be exceedingly sorry if the learned gent. had not been as perfectly successful in that point as he was. It was a kind of parliamentary warfare, resorted to in some few instances before, but now adopted without limit by the hon. gent. on the other side, to influence every passion right or wrong,—[a cry of no, no]. That was at least the tendency of what had been said; and though it might not he parliamentary to charge it directly, he was more justified in collecting it from the speeches of the hon. gentlemen, than they were in collecting the misinterpretation of this night from his. The hon. gentlemen might, if they thought fit, adopt this system of parliamentary warfare: but he wished them to abstain from misinterpreting his speeches, and making their own misinterpretations the foundation of attacks upon him. He should be happy to follow the contradictions imputed to him in their order, but that was impossible. The learned gent. had charged him with
849
en masse.
850
en masse
pro tanto
851
General Tarleton
congratulated the house on the difference of the right lion. gent.'s sentiments this night from what he thought on the night on which he brought forward his measure. Every one must remark the vast difference of tone, language, and manner. In the short sketch of the former night the right hon. gent. took away from the volunteers their drill-serjeants and their inspecting field officers, thinking it sufficient that they should be seen some time in the year by the lord lieutenant or his deputy. That must indeed relax their discipline. The difference of tone that was observable this day, must be imputed to the sense the country had manifested on the contents of the speech made by the right hon. gent. on a former day. Resolutions had been entered into by many corps, which had been submitted to his majesty's ministers. He had seen many such resolutions, and had recommended to wait patiently till Mr. Windham's system should be fully explained. The right hon. gent. and the house would pardon the irregularity of mentioning the name; but the system was known, as Mr. Windham's, in contradistinction to all others that had ever existed. The object of the motion was to simplify and elucidate the statement of the right hon. gent. The right hon. gent. had stated that 5 million had been expended in three years for volunteer service; and the question was, a Nether there was in that service merit adequate to the cost? The merit of the service was unquestionable: and was service of such unquestionable merit to be recompensed only by the refusal of rank, as if they were unworthy of it, by telling them, that the colour of the army was degraded by their wearing it? This was a mode of increasing the strength and security of the country, which could not easily be paralleled.—The question was then put, and the paper ordered.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Paull
rose, in pursuance of the notice which he had previously given to bring forward his First Charge against marquis Wellesley. The hon. gent. said that it was nut now, nor had it ever been, his intention to
852
853
professional
854
l
l
855
l
l
856
l
l
l
l
857
l
l
l
l
The Speaker
observed, that he apprehended that could be no question. From the journals of the house, d from other information that, he had received, he found that there had not been many instances of im-
858
Mr. Paull
agreeably to this suggestion, moved, and the title of the charge was shortly read b the clerk. he then moved that the charge be taken into consideration,with a view to appoint a future day for that purpose.
The Speaker
in addition to his former remarks, stated, that in modern times there was still another mode of procedure, which was to print the charges, and refer them to a committee of the whole house. It was Competent to the hon. gent. to move, that this charge be printed, and then taken into consideration.
Mr. Paull
in compliance with this intimation, moved that the charge be printed, which was ordered; and also expressed his intention on some future day, probably in the course of the present week, to introduce other charges against marquis Wellesley; and when a sufficient time had been given to allow the members to understand them as well as he did himself, to proceed. He meant to follow the same course with the charge which related to lord Wellesley's conduct to the nabob of Furuckabad as in the present, namely, to print it, and on some future day to move, that it be taken into consideration.
The Speaker
as the hon. gent. had submitted no question to the house, felt it his duty to call the attention of the house to the former proceedings on similar subjects, which prescribed some motion either of adoption or of rejection. If the hon. gent. was unwilling to propose any such motion, it was open to any other member to do so.
Mr. Paull
said, that he had produced a charge, which he conceived would be amply supported by documents that could be
859
The Speaker
enquired, who seconded the motion? After a considerable pause,
Mr. Paull
observed, that he could only say, if the noble lord to whom he had before alluded (lord Folkestone) had been in the house, he should not have wanted a seconder.—Another pause took,place, when sir W. Geary rose and seconded the motion.
Mr. Secretary
Far observed, that the hon. gent. had before the house a serious charge against the marquis Wellesley, but he had not told the house what were the documents to be adduced in support of that charge, nor when they were to be laid before the house; besides, he had given notice of his intention to bring forward two other charges He understood the hon. member really had no documents, though he had proposed a day for discussion; but if, when that day should come, the hon. member should not then be provided with any documents in support of his charges, he trusted the house would not allow of farther delay. He acknowledged that it was the right of every member to produce any charge in that house; but if the member producing it. should name a day to take it into consideration, and afterwards not be able to substantiate it by documents, he would find himself in a very unpleasant, and in a very awkward situation. The hon. gent. was to judge for himself. He would recollect that he proceeded at his peril, and if he had at present no documents to support his charge, he should lose no time in moving for them, as without them, he would stand in the place of a person bringing forward a charge without any documents to substantiate it.
Mr. Paull
said, it did not remain with hom to enforce the production of the necessary documents: he had a list of them in his hand, and should move fo them this night; but if they should not be forthcoming on the day he had named, he should hope the house would indulge him by deferring the discussion until the papers should be produced.
Mr. Lee
thought the hon. gent. had not proceeded in this case, as he,had professed, by adopting the precedent laid down by Mr. Burke, in the case of Mr. Hastings;
860
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, if he had conceived that naming a day was countenancing the charge, he would by no means have supported it, but he had thought this a mere matter of form. There certainly was much good sense in what had fallen from the hon. member who last spoke: but if he was inclined to suppose that the house would be put in possession of some documents on the subject, he should have no objection to adjourn the debate till this day week; and if they should not be then forthcoming, the house would decide what further proceedings it would then be right to take. He move accordingly.
The Speaker
could see no objection in point of form to this motion.
Mr. Rose,
though he thought the last motion less objectionable then the former, yet, as he really thought the charges had been brought forward without any evidence whatever to support them, and that the voluminous papers with which the hon. gent. had been day after day indulged, which covered the table, and had been printed at an expence of not less than 8 or 10,000
l
Sir W. Geary
declared that his object in seconding the motion, was not because he was convinced of the guilt of the noble marquis. When, however, he saw charges
861
Mr. paull
pledged himself to adduce documents t prove every tittle of the charges he had brought forward. He complained, that he met much difficulty and interruption in being able to procure the necessary documents; an he alluded to an hon. gent. (mr. Golding), who had said he would move for papers, that would refute every tittle of the charges he (Mr. P.) was to bring forward this day, though the particulars of these charges were not disclosed by him.
Mr. Golding
said, that he was convinced, from finding the charges so vague, futile, and indefinite, that the hon. gent. had only moved for the numerous documents already produced against the noble marquis.
Mr. Robert
Thornton said, the court to which he had the honour to belong having been so particularly alluded to, and seeming so much interested in the question, he might not seem to discharge his duty it he did not say a few words on the subject, while he, at the same time, expressed his own feelings. He felt regret act the situation into which the hon. gent. had brought himself, the house, and the court of directors. He lamented the hon. gent. had gone so far. He had not the honour of being acquainted with him till be had come forward in his present character, but he thought the spirit and manliness displayed by the lion. gent. throughout, did him the highest credit. Though he stopt short of the hon. gent., he thought he had well-grounded cause of complaint, and that there was much truth in the generality of his charges. He thought, however, that the hon. gentleman's was not a happy mode of proceeding, and that enquiry was the proper mode. If he had followed that mode, he (Mr. T.) should have voted with him. It was not for him to dictate to the hon. gent., but he only stated his opinion thus far, that the hon. gent. might not expect greater support from him than he was to receive. He thought justice to the hop. gent. required that he should be warned that there might be many others from whom he might have looked for support, who would pot be inch,Red to go the length he wished. He (Mr. T.) did. think that marquis Wellesley had been guilty of a wasteful ex-
862
Lord Temple
agreed with the hon. director (Mr. Thornton), that the hon. mover had displayed considerable manliness in the perseverance he had shewn in this business, and he hoped that the same manliness would induce him to retract his accusations when he should perceive them to be ill founded. It appeared to him an extraordinary course, that the house should be first called upon to adopt the charge, and then to vote for the papers upon which that charge should be founded. From this embarrassment he felt relieved by the motion which had been made by his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox). As to this paper which was called a charge, he thought it was paying too high a compliment to it to entertain it at all. Although it was competent to every member, to bring a charge of this nature against whom he might think proper, yet, there was something in the manner of bringing forward the present charge, which appeared to him neither fair nor
863
Sir Arthur Wellesley
though he did not rise to object to the motion before the house, could not help saving a few words upon the manner in which the noble marquis, who was the object of the charge, had been frequently held up as a public delinquent. The house would recollect how often that noble marquis had been thanked by the house and the court of directors, for those measures, many of which were now brought forward as matters of charge. The hon. gent. had not laid any ground for his charge, much less had he produced any evidence to support it. The service, in which he had himself been employed, enabled him to speak to some of the facts contained in the charge. He could say, therefore, that there was no foundation for several of them. Some of the facts were misrepresented, and otherwise wholly destitute of any foundation. The hon. director had said, that he had in his pocket a paper which would prove many of them. If so, why did he not move for the production of that paper? If the hon. gent. had really any such paper in his pocket; and could produce it, he was ready to meet it. The hon. director had stated, that the letter which had been moved for last night, contained proofs of many of the hon. gent.'s statements, but this he begged to dispute. That letter contained no such proofs. It might contain references to documents relating to the allegations in the charge, but that would not amount to a proof. He confessed that he could easily conceive, the delicacy of the situation into which the house had been brought by the course that had been adopted by the hon. gent. He could conceive, that it might be a question with the house, whether in justice it could receive a charge
864
Mr. I. H. Browne
thought, that it would be treating the charge with too much respect to adjourn the debate. It ought not to be entertained, nor the present debate adjourned, because no competent ground had been laid for such a proceeding, and no evidence whatever had been produced. He thought that an accusation of so serious a nature should not be countenanced on such grounds against such a great and glorious character, who had carried the renown of this country farther than any other individual alive. He was prepared to meet the motion with a direct negative. This would not preclude future enquiry. He should not say whether the result of that enquiry would be to criminate or exculpate the noble marquis.
Mr. Rose
desired to know whether it was a matter of course that the charge should he entered on the journals, if the present motion should be agreed to.
The Speaker
replied in the affirmative.
Mr. Rose
then suggested to the house, that it would be right to consider how far it would be fair, with respect to marquis Wellesley, to have a libel, without any evidence adduced in support of it, put on the journals of the house, which would be the case, if they were to give countenance to the charge by adjourning the present debate to a future day,
Mr. R. Thornton
in explanation, said, that the paper which he had in his pocket, was, like the statement of figures in the charge, copied from the documents which were in the India house.
Mr. Garrow,
in his maiden speech, said he felt no small degree of alarm for the situation the house was placed in, in point of precedent. He considered, that the proposal of adjourning the debate, proceeded only from the great candour of the right hon. secretary of state (Mr. Fox), but that it would be setting a dangerous and alarming precedent to agree to that course. Without meaning to make any imputation on the hon. gent. who brought
865
ex post facto
Sir J. Wrottesley
was inclined to support the motion for adjourning the debate. As to the hon. mover, although, perhaps, he had not shewn sufficient discretion, he had certainly evinced a manliness of mind in the prosecution of this business; whereas, there was another body of men, whose conduct excited no other sentiment in his mind than disgust. The court of directors had been chosen by the proprietors in a manner somewhat similar to that in which the members of that house had been returned by their constituents. How had they performed their duty? An hon. director had asserted, that the figures were rightly stated by the hon. mover, and agreed
867
Mr. Sheridan
said, he had given his best attention to every thing that had been said on the present question, and was ready to admit, that the house was involved in some embarrassment by the course of proceeding that had been pursued. But he did not think the difficulty of their situation so great as had been represented; or such, from which, with due attention, they might not extricate themselves. He could not, therefore, agree with his learned friend, who had that night, for the first time, delivered his sentiments to the house, and whom he hoped often to hear taking his part in the discussions in that house, as to the alarming consequences of the present proceeding. His learned friend had apprised them of the danger he apprehended, but had neglected to point out any means by which that danger might be avoided: and as his learned friend said, that he had at first made a league and covenant with himself not, to speak upon this question, he believed it would have been quite as well if he had kept to his league and covenant. An hon. director had said, that the paper moved for yesterday would have supported the allegations. If that paper could not be had, the documents to which it referred might easily be had. It appeared to him a very extraordinary circumstance respecting this paper, that being dated the 5th of April 1805 it should refer to the transactions of the years 1801-2-3, and censure almost every part of lord Wellesley's conduct in the administration of his government. It would have appeared, that what they disapproved of so violently, they might have censured sooner. Whoever brought forward a charge of this nature, certainly did so at infinite peril. He might even in some cases draw upon himself the reprobation of the house. if the house were to consider itself in the nature of a grand jury upon the present question, he should say, arguing from analogy, that it would be an extraordinary thing for a grand jury to find the hill in the first place, and ask for the evidence afterwards. And
868
Mr. Grant
said, he felt it necessary to offer a few words in answer to an hon. baronet (sir J. Wrottesley), and to a right hon. gent. opposite (M r. Sheridan), who had censured the court of directors because. they had not come forward to impeach marquis Wellesley. He had spoken, he said, to this point on a former occasion. He trusted the court of directors, as well as every other class of his majesty's subjects, had a right to exercise their own judgment, and to take that course which duty and propriety appeared to them to point out. Those of the directors who were members of that house, discharged their duty individually as such, but had no right to bring the India company before parliament. That company, by their executive body the directors, had taken the way the law prescribed to them to deliver their opinion on the measures of lord Wellesley, which was, by stating those opinions in the draft of a letter, addressed to the Bengal government, and sent to the board of commissioners for their concurrence. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) was mistaken in supposing the only object of that letter, written in 1805, to have been,
869
Mr. Wellesley
Pole rose for the purpose of expressing the joy he felt that the charge had been at length brought forward; he rejoiced that they had got the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) in a tangible shape, after 10 months of shifting and turning. He had been accustomed always to look up to his noble relation as man, the whole of whose life was devoted to honour, and the greatest part of it spent in the service of
870
871
872
means
873
Mr. Perceval
had no doubt that it was the wish Of the house as well as of the relations of marquis Wellesley, that the course they might take should not preclude investigation, but at the same time, he was of opinion with his learned friend (Mr. Garrow), 'that it would introduce a very improper precedent. He wished to have the question disposed of, but there was some difficulty in extricating the house from the present embarrassment. The best way for-this purpose was for the hon. gent. to withdraw his charge, if that could
874
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, he was not obstinately attached to the mode he had recommended, but it yet appeared to him to obviate all the difficulties in the case. It was very singular, that the hon. gent. had moved for volumes of papers, referring to charges he had not made, and yet had not to produce a single authenticated instrument applicable to his present motion.
Mr. Paull
was surprised at the extraordinary language of an hon. gent. (Mr. W. Pole), who had expressed so much pleasure, that he (Mr. P.) had now appeared in a tangible form. How be was to be disposed of, now he had been discovered in this tangible shape, had not been explained. It was represented that he had moved for papers with the design, not to support a valid charge, but to fish out materials to constitute such an accusation; and he was to he considered culpable for not substantiating his allegations by documents, when he had moved for papers as early as June in the last year, none of which were now produced on the table of the house. He did not come now to support the charge, he designed merely to present the general charge, and to move for the vouchers by which it would be justified ; and he was not convinced, that this mode of proceeding was either inefficient or irregular. His sentiments on the misconduct of the noble marquis, were neither new nor peculiar. A noble lord, of the highest reputation, entertained the same opinions; many others of sound discretion, saw matters in the same light; and 29, out of 30, of the East-India directors, had sanctioned his thoughts on the subject. The right hon. secretary of state himself had been at least nearly of the same opinion, as he had approved in the most unqualified manner of a speech of an hon. member below him (Mr. Francis) in 1805, which represented the conduct of lord Wellesley in the same light that he had done. Another right hon. gent. also on the bench below him
875
Mr. Francis
It is with the utmost reluctance that I now or at any time meddle with this subject. But I am called upon in such terms, as force me, whether I will or no, to take part in the debate. I have not changed or relinquished my opinion on the subject of the Marhatta War, as I delivered it in this house on the 5th of April, 1805, and, since that, to the public. They, who will not consult the record, have no right to question my principles, or to judge of my conduct. I never undertook to impeach lord Wellesley. My purpose, in proceeding as I did, was to do a public service of another kind, which might have been accomplished without an Impeachment. At least I thought so. But it could not be accomplished without a strict examination of his conduct with respect to peace and war in India. In that speech, sir, there is not one word, which I do not believe to be true, and which I am not able to make good. All this was done and concluded too, before I ever saw the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) or heard his voice, for in fact I heard him, before I saw him, or knew his name. If I understood my right hon. friend near me (Mr. Fox), I think he has mistaken me. I can assure him that I did never say that there was no ground for impeaching lord Wellesley, or that he ought not to be impeached for the Marhatta war. My right hon. friend, who has seen the speech in print, and read it attentively, will not find one word iii it to that effect.
Mr.Huddleston
I shall certainly detain the house but for a few seconds from the pleasure it must always receive in hearing the right hon. member (Mr. Sheridan). The speech of my hon. colleague (Mr. Grant) has made it quite unnecessary for me to enter into any defence of the Court of directors against the warm strictures of the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. W. Pole). I honour the feelings shewn by that hon. gent. in the cause of his near relation, and
876
877
Mr. Sheridan
said, he was not disposed to retract a single syllable of what he had
878
Mr. Francis.
I am so well pleased to see my right hon, friend once more in his place, that it would be very difficult for him to say any thing to me or of me, that could give me one moment's concern. The facts, to which he alludes, have been much misrepresented to him. The only way to justify the resentment is to overstate the offence. The terms in which I spoke of his absence, were good-humoured and complimentary. No man repines much at a loss, which he does not feel to be important. Respect and value care usually included in regret. But my right hon. friend is mistaken about the fact. I never mentioned the transactions in the Carnatic. I never uttered a word, of provocation to him to make good his charge against lord Wellesley. You, sir, and the whole house will bear me witness, that the supposed debts of the Nabob of Arcot, in which lord Wellesley has no concern, was the subject on which I called for his assistance, and that
879
Sir T. Metealfe
trusted the house would give him some credit for his silence in the discussions on the rejected draught of a letter, particularly as he had so repeatedly been pointed at for having differed in opinion with the majority of his friends in the direction. The paper in question was laid before Use court early in April 1805, and contained every act of lord Wellesley's government that could make against him, in the opinion of the writer of the letter, from the year 1798. He stated, that the house should understand the established rule for carrying on the correspondence between the executive part of the company and the governments in India, is by answering every letter, in the order of its arrival, paragraph by paragraph; and of course the former transactions of the Bengal government must have been decided on, by approval or censure, many years before the letter in question was produced: and as it appeared to him that the hon. member opposite ,(Mr. Grant) had undertaken an unprecedented task, in raking from the records every thing that could make against the government, without taking notice of any one meritorious act, he felt it his duty to object at the India-house to the directors entering into any contention with the commissioners on the alterations they had made, because it appeared to him they never had stronger grounds to stand on than in that instance: for in addition to the legal authority they possessed in altering a political dispatch, they had the argument in their favour, that no such procedure had been adopted upon the departure of any former governor-general. And what appeared at the same time extraordinary, they were suffered to make an alteration in a letter purely commercial, which by law they had no authority to do. The hon. baronet (sir J. Wrottesley) was under a mistake in supposing that what fell in the debates from individual directors was to be considered as the opinion of the body at large. The India Co. was not repre-
880
Mr. Grant
said, that the hon. baronet had no right to give him the credit of the letter in question, for that in fact five-sixths of it had been prepared by the officers of the India house from the materials they possessed; neither was the hon. baronet warranted in saying, that only seven or eight of the directors had much concerned themselves about the letter, because the whole court (the hon. baronet excepted) were much interested in it, and many had even called for a stronger measure.
Mr. H. Addington
suggested that the most regular course would be, for the hon. gent. to move that the motions be for the present withdrawn: and after there was
881
Mr. Paull
said, this was the very mode which he intended to have pursued, in consequence of what he had heard in the course of that night's debate.—The motions were then ordered to be withdrawn. after which, Mr. Sheridan gave notice that he would move the house to rescind the order for printing the first charge.
Mr. Paull
then moved for the production of certain accounts, with a view to shew the comparative amount of the public expenditure in India during the administrations of Mr. Hastings, lord Cornwallis, sir J. Shore, and marquis Wellesley.—The motions were carried unanimously, and the house adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday April 23.
[KING'S MESSAGE RELATING TO PRUSSIA.]
Grinville
882
883
884
Lord
Hawkesbury
885
Lord
Mulgrave
nem. diss.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, April 23.
[MINUTES.]
A new writ was ordered to be issued for Wexford, in the room of lord Loftus, called up to the house of peers as marquis of Ely.—Mr. Giles reported, from the committee of impeachment, that they had inspected the place in the court prepared for the accommodation of the house, and found that here would be sufficient space for the accommodation of 500 members, besides the managers of the impeachment. He then moved a string of resolutions, being those usual in such case: That the managers do first go out of the house before the other members; that after the Speaker has left the house, the members be called by the clerk, according to their counties: That no member do go out till his county be called: That no person but members do presume to sit in the places appointed for members in Westminster hall: That the serjeant do take all such into custody: For the more convenient passage to the hall, that the constables do attend and keep the same clear. Ordered.—The from of procedure in the cases of dr. Sacheverill and Mr. Hastings, being entered as read, Mr. Giles moved, that
886
[CONDUCT OF EARL ST. VINCENT.] Mr. Jeffery
said he did not wish to advert to the long procrastination which had taken place, by means of the printing of papers that had been moved for, in order to repel the charge which it was his intention to bring forward against lord St. Vincent, nor, at this time, to say a word more on the subject. He thought it necessary that a day should now be named for bringing forward the same, and he was desirous of fixing that day, as nearly as possible, according to the wish of the house; and as he would not desire to name an earlier day than it might be supposed a sufficient time would be given for printing the papers already moved for, therefore he, if it would be agreeable to the house, would name the 6th of May, on which day it was his determination positively to bring it forward.
Lord Howick
was as anxious to avoid delay in this business as any man in the house. No rational motive could be assigned for delay on his part, or on the part of the noble lord's friends in question, but the necessary time that might be required for the production of such papers as were judged necessary for the defence of the noble lord, and the elucidation of such points as the hon. gent. had already thought proper to specify. It was to be wished that such papers should be printed, and put into the hands of members before the discussion should take place. Some of those papers were not yet produced, and a considerable time would be necessary for their printing. If there should be sufficient time for this purpose, before the day fixed on by the hon. gent., he certainly could have no objection that the matter should be finally taken up on that day. But should it appear in the mean time that all the documents could not be before the house previously to that day, he thought it only reasonable that a farther delay should take place. At present he had no object on to the day nominated by the hon. gent.
[KING'S MESSAGE RELATIVE TO PRUSSIA.] Mr. Secretary Fox
moved the order of the day, for taking into consideration his majesty's message, relative to Prussia,
887
888
889
890
891
892
893
Lord Castlereagh
rose to express his entire and unqualified concurrence in the address moved by the right hon. gent., and his cordial approbation of the sentiments with which it was introduced. From the manly manner in which the government had acted upon this occasion, it was impossible that any candid man could refuse them his praise. They had conducted themselves with a firmness so judicially tempered with conciliation, as to maintain the dignity and resolution which pressingly became them in such a case; and, at the same time, not to shut the door against an opportunity of an amicable adjustment, if the Prussian cabinet were so disposed. The right hon. gent. who opened the motion, had put the argument in favour of this country upon such broad grounds, and sustained the proceeding of his majesty's ministers by reasoning so irresistible, that he felt it unnecessary to add much to what the house had already heard. Indeed, under all the circumstances, he could not see how it was possible for government to have taken a different course. Prussia, in becoming the instrument of France to take hostile measures against this country, to adopt the course of annoying us that France had previously pursued, left to us no other alternative than that which had been taken. The noble lord vindicated the resolution to resent invasion of Hanover, and expressed his confidence that ministers, in evincing such a solicitude for his majesty's Hanoverian territories, but acted in unison with the feelings of the British people, who must ever participate in the feelings and wish of their sovereign. As to the arguments used by Prussia, after taking possession of Hanover as a permanent dominion, they appeared to him to be obviously untenable upon any principle of justice. Prussia stated, that France held Hanover by right of conquest, and under that right assumed to dispose of it. But, without any reference to the forcible and outrageous manner in which France originally took possession of Hanover, it was clear that, at the time they un-
894
nem. con.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Sheridan
rose, pursuant to notice, to move that the
895
ex parte
896
Mr. H. Addington
replied, that to prepare the list of papers alluded to, would, he was sorry to say, require a considerable time. This he was. enabled to state from his experience respecting other papers of a similar nature; and he was sorry for the delay, because it was highly desirable, that the whole of this case should he disposed of with all convenient expedition. He was sure, that every member must sympathize in the feelings of lord Wellesley, in consequence of such suspence. Wishing, therefore, the speedy decision of the question, he regretted to say that the papers referred to by his right hon. friend could not be prepared in less than 2 or 3 months.
Mr. Paull
begged to state that the papers which referred to any of the charges he had it in contemplation to bring forward, were not completely before the house. Not one of those with regard to Bhurtpore or Surat were yet on the table,
897
The Speaker
in consequence of the hon. member having stated that he had taken the course he had adopted from a suggestion from the chair, feeling it necessary to stand right with the house, declared that he had but pointed out the manner in which the hon. member 'Could best accommodate his proceedings to the precedent of Mr. Hastings's case, which he professed to have in view.
Mr. W. Smith
said, he had no opposition to the motion of his right hon. friend; he thought these charges should not appear before the public, because, as yet, there appeared no evidence to support them; and it was but justice to the character of the noble marquis, to withhold from the public, aspersions upon it, until there was sonic evidence to support them. Of that noble marquis, said the hon. gent. I know but little, I had a slight acquaintance with him before he left this country. I have had no correspondence with him while abroad; since his return I have not seen him. Of the hon. gent. who prefers these charges I know nothing, but that his
898
[WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL.]
899
On the motion for the 3rd reading of this bill.
Sir V. Gibbs
renewed his former objections made to the bill; observing, that in the first place there was no necessity for it, and in the second, that it might produce an effect different from what it was intended to do, as it went much farther than the opinions given by the majority of the judges. In his opinion, instead of removing doubts, it would be introducing new ones.
Mr. Tyrwhitt
objected to the bill, as there was no practical inconvenience from the present state of the law, and as it originated from a legislative question.
Mr. Morris
conceived, that if any declaratory bill were necessary, this was the best that could be adopted. The learned gent. then entered into a very long argument, to prove that it was necessary to declare the law; and concluded by calling on the house to support the bill.
Mr. Perceval
did not see that any ill consequences could arise from the rejection of the bill; on the contrary, he thought it much better that it should be thrown out, as there would be but one uncertainty in the practice of the courts; whereas, if it were passed into a law, there would be many, arising from the different constructions of it.
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Mr. Secretary Fox
observed, that every thing which had been urged against this bill, convinced him the more of the necessity of it. The difference of opinion among the judges, was a certain proof, that some remedy should be applied to the evil; and when he considered the arguments of the many learned gentlemen who had expressed their sentiments upon it, he thought the necessity still stronger. The learned gent. who had just sat down, had presided at one time of his life in a criminal court, when he was chief justice of Chester; and he begged leave to ask him, whether he ever had heard the exception taken? The negative opinion he considered the strongest point in favour of it; but from the argument, he was to presume, that no such doubt ever did exist. A noble and learned lord, however, of the upper house (lord Eldon), had expressed very considerable doubts upon the subject; and, if a doubt did exist, the mischief would be without bounds in every part of the judicature of the kingdom, if the bill were not passed. From every consideration which he could possibly give the subject, he thought the bill did not go one tittle beyond the opinion of the judges, and the words of it were perfectly consonant with that opinion, for which reasons he supported the bill. The house then divided, when there appeared; For the third reading of the bill, 51; Against it, 18; Majority, 33.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, April 24.
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Lord Sheffield
said, that in his opinion the papers now on the table did not sufficiently explain the nature of the bill now before their lordships. He had therefore to move for several others, by which the object of the bill might be more fully and satisfactorily explained. His lordship then proceeded to move for a long string of papers respecting the number and tonnage of the vessels employed in that trade at different periods since 1797.
Lord Holland
observed, that the object the noble lord had in view might easily be ascertained from the papers already on the table. To prepare and produce the papers would, in his opinion, be only productive of much mischief. The papers, however, were granted; and lord Sheffield gave no-
901
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Lord Walsingham
reported from the committee appointed to seach for precedents of proceedings on impeachments, the ceremonial proposed to be observed on the trial of lord Melville, which had been recommended to them for alteration. His lordship having read the report,
The Earl of Radnor
moved to add to it, in conformity with three precedents of impeachments previous to that of Mr. Hastings, that the peers should remain in their places, and not depart from them during the trial on each day.—A long conversation ensued between lord Auckland, the earl of Radnor, lord Holland, lord Eldon, earl Stanhope, the earl of Westmeath, earl Spencer, the duke of Cumberland, the earl of Darnley, bishop of St. Asaph, and lord Ellenborough. Most of the above peers objected to the proposition, as tending by its strictness, to cause great inconvenience to the peers attending on the trial, whilst, at the same time, there was no doubt at all that that order would be preserved which the solemnity of such an occasion required.
The Earl of Radnor
conceived that the motion ought to be agreed to, in order to insure that strictness of order which was requisite on a solemn trial by impeachment, but in order to have a public attendance at its discussion, his lordship moved to adjourn the debate till the next day, and that the lords be summoned. On this motion the house divided; Contents 9; Non Contents 15; Majority 6. The report of the committee was then agreed to.
[INSOLVENT DEBTORS' BILL.] Lord
Ellenborough
The Earl of Moira
expressed a wish that the 2nd reading of the Insolvent Debtor's bill, which stood for this day might be postponed till Monday se'nnight.
Lord Holland
declared his readiness to accede to this request, and moved to discharge the order, which was renewed for Monday se'nnight, and the lords ordered to be summoned for that day.
Lord Eldon
presented three petitions from certain mercharats and tradesmen of the cities of London and Westminster, and the Borough of Southwark, praying that the bill might not pass into a law.
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Lord Holland
presented a petition from the debtors confined in the county gaol of Leicester, praying that the bill might pass into a law.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 24.
[MINUTES] Mr. Glassford
took the oaths and his seat for Dunbartonshire, in the room of sir J. Colquhoun, who has accepted the Chiltern Hundreds —Mr. Fellows moved, that a committee be appointed to enquire into the expediency of repealing so much of the act of the 2d of James I. as related to the making and vending of boots and shoes. —Lord Castle reagh moved for a return of the number of effective men in the army, from the 1st of Jan. 1793, to the 1st of Jan. 1801, the recruits procured in each year, and the bounties given them: 2dly, of the number of men raised for rank, permanent or temporary, during the same period.—Lord Howick presented the estimates of the expences arising from the additional pay ordered by his majesty in council to be given to the officers and seamen of the navy, between the 1st of May, and the 31st of Dec., 1806. —Mr Paull gave notice, that on Monday he would move for the printing of his first article of impeachment against lord Wellesley. —Ordered, on the motion of Mr. Whitbread, that a message be sent to the Lords, with a list of witnesses to be summoned to attend the trial of lord Melville, and Mr. Whitbread was ordered to bear the message to the Lords. It was afterwards ordered, that a note be given to the serjeant at arms, with the name of the right hon. George Tierney, and orders to serve him with notice to attend at all times the trial of lord Melville.
[EX-PARTE CRIMINAL PROCEEDINGS.] Mr. Serjeant Best
rose and addressed the house as follows: —Some time since sir, I obtained leave to bring in a bill to prevent the publication of
ex-parte
903
[CUSTOMS DUTIES BILL.]
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
begged leave, without intending to oppose the present bill, to call the attention of his majety's ministers to the operation of the additional duty on the silk manufacture. Since the year 1787, the duty on silk had been encreasing, and yet no alteration had been made on the draw-backs upon that article. By the present bill, the duty would be raised from 7
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Mr. Vansittart
assured the worthy alderman, that there would be no reluctance on the part of government to give every encouragement to that manufacture, if it should appear, after a proper enquiry, that such encouragement was necessary. This, however might be done in a subsequent bill.
Mr. Barham
expressed his approbation of the liberal and candid manner in which ministers had listened to such representations as had been made to them on these subjects. He hoped that such modifications would be introduced into the duty on sugar, as would make it possible to pay it.
904
Lord H. Petty
said that certainly, on the part of his majesty's ministers, there must be a disposition to give every sort of attention to this subject, and to listen to every important representation. He agreed that the subject was one of some difficulty, and, that an enquiry of one sort or another would be very desirable.
Mr. Rose
contended, that such an enquiry would be batter conducted by the inspector-general than by a committee of the house.
Mr. Barham
only meant, by proposing a committee, to give assistance to government, and, if there could be a better mode than this, he would have no objection.—After a few words from Mr. Johnstone and Mr. Manning, the bill was read a 3rd time and passed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, April 25.
[MINUTES] Lord Ponsonby
(late the right hon. W. B. Ponsonby, was introduced with the accustomed formalities, sworn, and took his seat. His lordship's supporters were the earl of Besborough (as lord Ponsonby) and lord Dundas.—The earl of Orford (late baron Walpole) was also introduced, sworn, and took his seat. His lordship's supporters were earls Fitzwilliam and Spencer.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Lord Eldon
stated to the house, that there appeared to him an error in the report of the committee respecting the ceremonial to be observed on the trial of lord Melville, which it was necessary to correct. It was there stated, that on giving judgment every peer should say, "Guilty" or "Not Guilty,"—"upon my honour;" at the same time, laying his hand upon his breast. He conceived that this was erroneous, inasmuch as the decision on such an occasion must be the vote of the house collectively, and certainly, in case of a verdict of Guilty, it was not giving judgment, as the de-
905
The Earl of Raduor
adverted to the motion which he made the preceding day, and Which he still contended ought to have been adopted, respecting the peers sitting in their places on the trial of lord Melville, and not departing there from during the trial of each day. His lordship referred to six precedents of trials before the house, in which a similar order had been made; and contended that it ought to be made in this case, in order to ensure that strict decorum which was requisite on so solemn an occasion. Having moved the reading of the first standing order, requiring the peers to sit in their places in the house, as prescribed by act of parliament, he concluded by moving, that so much of the said order as was applicable, should be enforced on the trial of lord Melville.
The Lord Chancellor
thought the strict enforcement of such an order would frequently be productive of great inconvenience. He had no doubt that their lordships would observe the greatest decorum upon the trial, whilst, at the same time, he conceived himself already under the standing order, with every necessary power to enforce the observance of decorum, whenever there was any deviation from it. He was likewise of opinion, that the present motion had been decided upon, in substance, the preceding day, and therefore ought not now to be entertained in another shape.—The Earl of Westmeath and Lord Auckland also opposed the motion, on the ground of the inconvenience such an order strictly enforced would produce. The latter noble lord said, there were 12 precedents of impeachment, in which such an order had not been made.—Earl Spencer thought it unnecessary, as it seemed to be agreed on all hands that the greatest possible decorum ought to be observed on the trial.—Several other peers briefly delivered their sentiments; and after the earl of Radnor spoke in explanation, the house divided—For the previous question, 37. Against it 10. Majority 27.
Sheffield
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Lord Holland
would not object to the production of the paper, but could not help observing it was in consequence of that very report that those measures were taken, which, for three years subsequent to that period, produced the most calamitous consequences in the West-Indies. He could not conceive, besides, that the opinions of the lords of trade in 1784, could, upon this question, be of much use in 1806. He objected also to the practice adopted by the noble lord of moving for papers relating to particular years without moving for those respecting the intermediate years.
Lord Sheffield
contended, that this and many other papers which he still had to move for, would explain the state of that trade at different periods, and the various opinions that were entertained of its tendency.—After some conversation, the motion was agreed to, and the noble lord proceeded to move for a similar report delivered in Jan. 1791, and for a copy of all the memorials presented at different times since 1801, against suspensions of the navigation laws.
Lord Auckland
declared, that not one of the papers moved for by the noble lord had the least relation whatever to the object of the bill before the house. The object of that bill, he wished once for all to declare, seemed to be wholly misunderstood by the noble lord. It by no means intended the introduction of any change in the navigation laws; its whole object was to make that lawful which was now unlawful, and to make ministers responsible instead of their subordinate servants. As to the papers, they were so voluminous, that it would employ 60 clerks, for mouths to prepare them, which would prove a serious derangement to public business, without mentioning the expence attending the production of them. If it was intended to create delay by moving for such volumes; that intention would be frustrated, for he was determined to proceed in the 2d reading of that bill, without waiting for any such papers.
Lord Sheffield
wished only for an extract; but this was also objected to, unless the noble lord would point out some particular part to be extracted.
907
Lord Auckland
took the opportunity of declaring, that he would not consent to postpone the 2d reading of the bill on account of the papers moved for by the noble lord.
Lord Holland
suggested, whether the noble lord had not better move, amongst other voluminous works, for Anderson's History of Commerce and Postlethwaite's Dictionary.—After some further conversation the motion was negatived.
Lord Sheffield
then moved for copies of all memorials and petitions presented to the board of trade since 1801, relative to suspensions of the navigation act.
Lord Auckland
objected also to this motion, as the memorials (there were no petitions) would form several folio volumes, and were of no consequence to the question. Any of the memorialists, who now thought it necessary, might petition the house against the bill.—The motion was negatived.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, April 25.
[MINUTES.] Sir Anderson
brought in a bill to enable the proprietors of the new houses near Temple Bar and Snow Hill, to dispose of them by way of lottery, which was read a first time.—Mr. Manning brought up the report of the committee on the London Dock Improvement bill. The amendments were agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a 3d time.—On the motion of Mr. W. Keene, it was ordered that there be laid before the house, copies of all applications to the court of directors, for claims on the Nabob of Oude, with the amount thereof, and the decisions thereupon.—Lord H. Petty, in consequence of some informality, felt himself obliged to postpone, for a few days, the motion of which he had given notice, relative to the provision for the family of the late lord Nelson, which he would bring forward, however, at an early opportunity.
[REPEAL OF ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.] Mr. Secretary fox
when he had, on a former day, moved that the order for the 2d reading of the bill for the repeal of the additional force act be deferred till Monday, had not in his recollection that on Tuesday a business was to come on of as great parliamentary importance as any the executive government could have to be sanctioned by the house, he meant the impeachment of lord Melville, which the house had determined to attend in a body. If
908
Mr. Canning
did not object to the motion; but he hoped the day now to be fixed for the second reading of the bill alluded to, would be adhered to definitively. Without entering into the reasons which were given for deferring the proceeding beyond Monday, every one must allow that this business was also of the most important nature. Various reports and considerations had gone abroad on the subject, embracing the whole military system, which it was extremely important to settle and set at rest as soon as possible.
Mr. Secretary Fox
acknowledged the importance of the bill; but the force of the grounds for putting it off must be felt by every one—the indisposition of his right hon. friend who originated the bill in the first instance, and the magnitude of the business to come on on Tuesday in the present. He agreed to fix the 2d reading for Wednesday.
Lord Howick
rose and spoke as follows;—I rise, sir, pursuant to notice, to submit to the house a proposition, upon which I am persuaded there can be but one opinion in this house. It must be equally the wish of every Englishman to contribute to the adequate provision and comfort of a class of men who stand so high in universal estimation, as the British navy, and who have claims so peculiarly strong upon the esteem and gratitude of their country. It must, I say, be our wish not only to promote the comforts, but to secure the necessary rewards to that gallant body. Feeling this, I cannot suffer myself to entertain a doubt of unanimous support. But, although I am confident that the principle and justice of the measure I am about to submit will meet the most cordial and liberal concurrence in all quarters, still, lest
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Mr. Francis
confessed that the business was new to him, and that his apprehensions might appear to have no foundation; but he had one general question to ask: he wished to know whether, when the pay of the officers and seamen was originally fixed, the probability of prize money was not taken into consideration, and whether on that ground the pay was not fixed at so much lower rate? whether the pay, as connected with the prize money, was not considered as sufficient? As to his noble friend's request, that no comparison should be instituted in this discussion between the case of the navy, and that of the army, he rather apprehended that if there should be any inequality in the branches of service, unpleasant comparisons would be made elsewhere, however studiously any allusion to the subject might be avoided in that house.
Lord Garlies
said, that having very frequently and maturely considered this subject, he thought great credit due to the noble lord, who, after being so short a
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Attorney General
Mr. Rose
having several considerations to offer against this bill, from the effect it would have on the general commercial interests of the country, and which he wished to have an opportunity of communicating, without the necessity of making them public, submitted to the learned gent. the propriety of delaying this question two or three days: it could be productive, he thought, of no inconvenience to delay it till Tuesday.
Mr. Secretary Fox
did not see why the consideration of the report should be delayed on that account. His learned friend would, he doubted not, readily agree to postpone the third reading until Tuesday, which would answer the same purpose.
Mr. Rose
said, that if the report were now to be considered, he must call the attention of the house to several important points connected with this bill. He conceived now that the ports of the North were shut against our commerce, this bill would operate in still further injuring that, and our manufactures, The value of our manufactures exported annually to Africa was above two millions. How much of this gross amount would be affected by this bill, he could not pretend to say, but certainly enough to induce the house to pause, before, at such a crisis as the present, they sacrificed it. Our East-India trade would be materially injured likewise by its operation, as likewise our direct trade to the Spanish Main, which was highly profitable. What object was attained by the bill? If the abolition of the slave trade, the plain fact that as we receded from the trade the Americans advanced in it, would be sufficient to shew the absurdity of the idea. Those, indeed, who professed to be the friends of humanity, ought scarcely to support a bill which was calculated to divert the African trade into a channel much more injurious to the interests of humanity, than that in which it then was. The last ship from Africa to Carolina buried 152 slaves on her passage, and yet her voyage was considered sufficiently profitable. If the bill passed, the consequence would be, that the manufacturers of Manchester, Stockport, and
918
The Attorney General
remarked, that as these observations went to condemn the principle of the bill, and not to introduce into it any modifications, their discussion had better be reserved till the third reading of the bill. They would at least be as proper in that stage of the bill as now, and it was desirable, he thought, that they should not have two debates on the same subject. If the right hon. gent. had more observations to offer, he had better adduce them now once for all, or postpone the whole till the stage he had alluded to. It was a matter of indifference to him whether the principle should be now debated or afterwards, but he did not wish to have it twice debated.
Mr. Rose
said he should still think himself at liberty on the 3rd reading to offer what observations might occur to him, and would dot tie himself down to be silent in that stage of the business.
General Tarleton
as a representative of the city of Liverpool, had the strongest objections to this bill. The object of it was to prevent the importation of slaves into the foreign colonies, by the British. Nothing could be conceived almost, which would tend more to injure the interests of the navy. We ought to take care of the interests of our navy, and commerce would take care of itself. The African trade had been the great cause of the prosperity and opulence of Liverpool. The sailors in this trade were the best that could be found, and the greatest supplies for our navy were obtained from the port of Liverpool. Although many were of opinion that the coasting trade was the chief nursery for our marine, yet he maintained that sailors were good in proportion to the length of their voyages, and those of the sailors in the African trade were certainly long ones. There had been no considerable actions, such as that of Trafalgar, and others, in which sailors from this trade were not to be found in considerable numbers. The consequence of giving up this trade, in any degree, would be to throw it into the hands of the Americans, who could carry it on cheaper. It would also send our capital to America. He would ask an hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) whether he meant to bring in his annual
919
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
was apprehensive that it would interfere with the faith of his majesty, pledged to some of the conquered colonies, that they, should be on the same footing with the British West India islands, as appeared from the, terms of their capitulation; and wished to know if it would supercede the proclamation of his majesty of the 15th of Aug. 1805, which admitted the supply of those islands with negroes at the rate of a certain per centage, according to their present black population?
The Attorney General
said, the, bill was not intended to supersede the order of his majesty in council of the 15th of Aug., but on the contrary would give it the sanction of parliament, though he would not enquire at present whether that was really necessary, his majesty having occupied those colonies in right of conquest. Care would be taken to make provisions in the bill for allowing the per centage of negroes, pledged by his majesty's declaration.
General Gascoyne
was of opinion that if the general question was likely to be brought forward, as it had annually been for some time past, it was only losing time to discuss it now. It would be better to discuss the question of an entire abolition at once, and therefore wished to know if the hon. member opposite (Mr. Wilberforce) had it in contemplation to bring forward the question this session? If any hopes had been held out to the conquered colonies of being treated in the sane manner as the British, he thought this bill would operate as a violation of our faith. Mr. W. took no notice of the question put to him by the hon. general. After a few observations from sir W. Young, the bill was ordered to be read a 3d time on Tuesday.
920
Lord Henry Petty
stated, that, it had been found necessary to introduce several amendments into the bill. It was his intention therefore to propose, that the bill thus amended, should be re-printed, and taken into further consideration some day next week. This appeared to him to be the best mode of giving the bill that full and fair discussion, which he was anxious that it should receive. With regard to the principle of the bill, as it had received the sanction of a large majority both in its present form, and when it was presented in another shape, he should abstain, from saying any thing upon it, although he was aware, that there were some who entertained a strong objection to the principle. He would, therefore, confine himself to stating shortly, the substance of two or three of the principal amendments which he intended to propose. It would be recollected, that as the bill originally stood, it imposed a duty of 10 per cent, on all incomes from property, exempting only small annuitants and persons in trade, whose incomes were under a hundred a year; and that for these persons a gradual scale of exemption had been formed from incomes of 50
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Sir R. Buxton
expressed his intention, when the amendments were printed, and the bill should again come under the consideration of the house, to offer some observations on it. He thought that the landed interest would suffer materially by it as it now stood, and he was anxious for some qualification of the hardships to which it subjected them.
Mr. W. Smith
declared that, he was one of those who opposed this measure from the very beginning. Although he could not but be sensible that the situation of the country rendered the duty of his hon. friends very embarrassing; and although he did not feel disposed to increase this embarrassment, by opposing this or any of their other bills, yet as he had so frequently on former occasions expressed his disapprobation of the principle on which the present bill was founded, he could not allow it to be supposed by the public, that any change of men had produced a change in his opinion of this measure. When it should again be brought forward, he would deliver his sentiments upon it. As to the encrease to 10 per cent. he confessed that that was with him no material objection to the bill.
Sir. C. Price
lamented the operation of this tax, as it would affect a large and meritorious class of tradesmen in this metropolis; he meant those whose incomes were below 200
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Mr. Wilberforce
hoped to have heard of more numerous exemptions; he was however sensible of the absolute necessity
922
Mr. Bastard
would not have the farming interests forgotten: the farmer was a tradesman, and was entitled to as much indulgence in his rustic engagements, as his competitors in the great towns of the kingdom.
Mr. Vansittart
trusted, that in the variety of objections gentlemen adduced, they would not forget two things of essential importance; the produce and the practical effect of the tax. As to its operation on land, it might be resembled to the old land-tax, and perhaps by this familiar view of it, gentlemen would be less disposed to give it their opposition.—The house then went into the committee, and the amendments were read and agreed to. The report was ordered to be taken into consideration on Friday,
Sir J. Wrottesley
objected to it on the ground of its placing the property of the church too much in the power of the bishops. They had the same passions with other men, and their conduct had at different times, been too much characterised by ambition and the love of power. The present bill professed to be designed for the relief of Curates; but he had heard that several of that order had designed to present a petition against it. He contended that it would be better to vote a small sum for the purpose of encreasing the livings of Curates, by,adding to queen Anne's bounty, than that the present bill should pass. He therefore moved that the bill be read this day 6 months.
Mr. Perceval
said, that a bill founded on the same principle had already twice met with the sanction of the house, though it had not passed in consequence of certain alterations it had undergone in the lords. He therefore had not thought it necessary on the first reading of the bill to enter at length into the merits of it. He contended that the provisions of this bill should have formed a part of the late bill on the residence of the Clergy. That bill had extended great indulgence to rectors, and he should be sorry if there did not now appear the same feeling for curates as there had then been displayed for rectors. Was it not equitable that when rectors were per-
923
Lord Porchester
was astonished to hear the learned gent. call on the house to take time to consider of the merits of the bill, as in his statement in bringing it in, he had said, that it contained nothing new. The learned gent. had expressed a wish that, if possible, every curate should have 250
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Mr. Fellowes
Lord Porchester
Mr. Barham
Mr. Wilberforce
was surprised to find
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Mr. Secretary Fox
first objected to the bill on account of the enormous power it went to give the bishops. He also object-
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Lord Castlereagh
said he should wish to spare the house the trouble of hearing arguments which might be applied with more propriety to the bill when in a committee; he did not however agree with the argument urged by the right hon. gent. against the bill, who had urged it on the idea that the bill could not apply in all cases; it was, in his opinion, right to apply the bill to all cases in which it could be applied, and it was no objection to the bill that it could not be carried into effect in every instance. It appeared to him, that all the reasons which had been alleged against the bill were chiefly of a nature which did not go to the principle of it, but against the principle of any bill which had for its object
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Mr. Alexander
was against the bill as a partial measure; whereas, if any thing was done at all in this matter, the whole of it should be taken up on a broad and general principle. Pluralities and all other abuses should be considered, if the subject was to come under legislative consideration.—The house then divided, when there appeared: For the second reading, 13; Against it, 25. Majority against the bill 12. It was consequently lost
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, April 28.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Lord Auckland
moved, that this house do strictly prohibit and forbid any publication whatever of the Trial of lord Melville, during the continuance of the same; and that notices of such order be posted up on the doors of this house, and on the doors of Westminster Hall.
The Duke of Norfolk
asked if there was any precedent for such a motion?
Lord Auckland
replied in the negative; but argued that such a regulation was called for by reason and justice. He adverted to the instances of speeches, or proceedings, for 2 or 3 days successively, namely, on one side of the question, and in support of the charges, without the other party having an opportunity of urging a tittle in his defence against such allegations. He would put it to their lordships, and appeal to the whole house, whether it were fit that partial publications of the proceedings should go abroad in that manner?—The motion being read from the woolsack,
Lord Eldon,
according to his conception of the motion, as he heard it read, thought such an order would go to the prohibition of the trial being published altogether, even after its conclusion; which, he seemed to think, could not be what was intended. He, however, highly approved of the principle upon which the prohibition proceeded, and he lamented the partial publication of trials, as frequently practised with respect to the courts below. He was sorry to say, that he was old enough to have
928
Lord Hawkesbury
expressed his acquiscence in the principle laid down by his noble and learned friend; but as he conceived the effect of the motion would be to prohibit the publication of the trial altogether, he thought some words should be introduced therein, to limit the order to a prohibition during the continuance of the trial.
The Lord Chancellor
explained, that it might be owing to his mistake in reading the motion, that the noble lords were led into such a supposition. There were words in the motion to meet the idea adverted to, and he thought it absolutely necessary to the honour and justice of the house, that such a notice should be given.
The Duke of Norfolk
said a few further words on the occasion, and adverted to the impracticability of preventing that which should transpire on the trial from going forth.—The question was then put, and the motion agreed to by their lordships, and ordered accordingly.—The report of the committee appointed to regulate the ceremonial of the trial was then taken into farther consideration. The duke of Norfolk, lords Spencer and Hawkesbury, were the principal speakers, In respect to the delivery of tickets to the different peers of parliament for admission at Westminster-hall, it was finally agreed that the regulation adopted in former cases of impeachment should be adhered to.— On the motion of lord Eldon, that part of the report which regulated the manner of giving judgment, was postponed for consideration till a future day.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, April 28.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE]
The Speaker stated, that to-morrow, being appointed for the trial by impeachment of lord viscount Melville, he purposed being at the house precisely at ten o'clock; and, if the attendance of the members allowed him to take the chair at a quarter past ten, he should then give orders to the proper officers to
929
[INCREASED PAY OF THE NAVY.] Mr. Vansittart
brought up the report of the committee of supply, for granting additional pay to the navy. On the question being put, that the resolution be read a 2d time,
Lord Garlie's
rose, not to oppose the resolution, but, as the noble lord who had brought this question before the house had expressed his readiness to listen with attention to whatever should be said on the subject, to propose some considerations by way of amendment to this measure. He approved of the intention on the part of the noble lord to ameliorate the situation of those employed in the naval service; and felt highly gratified by the attention the noble lord had given to the subject; but he was disposed to go somewhat farther, and thought, that two amendments he had to propose would render still more complete the system of encouragement and amelioration proposed by the noble lord. The first amendment he would propose, was that the first lieutenants of the line of battle ships, in order to render them superior to lieutenants of inferior rates, and of their juniors in point of service, be allowed 1
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The Speaker
reminded the noble lord, that the subject before the house was a resolution, granting his majesty a certain sum. This grant might either be approved of, or the resolution might be thrown out, but it could admit of no restriction. If the sum Was granted, it must remain at the disposal of the crown.
Lord Howick
was of opinion, that the only mode of proceeding proper for the noble lord, if he persisted in the amendments he had adverted to, would be to propose new estimates, agreeably to the alterations he wished to introduce. He spoke in high terms of the candour of the noble lord, and could not suspect him of a wish to oppose ministers, except where he should feel it his duty to do so. He had to return thanks to the noble lord for the suggestions with which he had furnished him, and had given them all consideration before he had laid the subject before the house. In the propositions he had laid before the house, however, he had not acted without communications from the first naval authorities, from which description he certainly did not exclude the noble lord, though he had thought it eligible to
931
[PROPERTY DUTY BILL.] Mr. Ker
seeing a noble lord in his place, wished to refer to him for information respecting the property tax. He was aware that formerly foreigners had not contributed to this tax. As there were many however of that description who had an interest in the funds of this country, and as that tax was made to fall so heavy on the subjects of this country, he wished to know if the noble lord had it in design to make any exemptions in their favour, or to include them under the general tax? That the house
932
Lord H. Petty
did not oppose the production of the paper, but thought it would be unfair to lay a tax on those who were not represented in that house, and that it would be equally contrary to the rules of sound policy.
Mr. Rose
thought the hon. member's motion ought to have been for an account of the stock held by foreigners in the different funds of this country, as in that case the amount of the exemptions would be easily calculated. would object to any measure leading to subject foreigners to the operation of the property tax; not however, on their account, but on our own, as it must be obvious that the consequence of such a measure would be their withdrawing their property to the funds of other countries in Europe, a circumstance that was not at all desirable for this country.
Mr. Francis
could see no danger of that sort, nor did he know any other country in which they could lodge their money with equal security. He thought, that upon every principle of justice, the property of foreigners ought to contribute to the expence of its protection. Besides, this distinction would impose an. additional difficulty in the collection of the tax, as it would not be easy to ascertain what part really belonged to foreigners.
Mr. Huskisson
said, that foreigners might withdraw their money and place it either in the Irish bank or in the American funds.—The motion was then agreed to.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Paull
rose and said:—Sir, as several gentlemen were not present, when I had the honour to present the First Charge, upon which hereafter I mean to move for the Impeachment of the marquis of Wellesley; and as many gentlemen are even ignorant of the allegations contained in that charge, before I apply evidence to the fact, and state the grounds upon which I tan entitled to the printing of the charge, such gentlemen
933
934
935
936
937
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938
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939
l
l
Dr. Laurence
said, that whatever might have been heretofore his opinion touching the propriety of printing the charges, before all the evidence in support of them was laid on the table, from what he had heard this night from the hon. gent. who had just sat down, he must second his motion, and support him if he persisted in it. At the same time he begged leave to submit it to his own discretion, whether it might not better answer his purpose, and less excite opposition, if he were to postpone hip motion for a few days, until the whole of the papers, in support of the charges, should he laid upon the table.
Mr. Paull
said, it would be useless for him to postpone a motion now, which he should feel himself again under the necessity of pressing upon the house, in the course of a day or two.
The Marquis of Douglas
said, he lamented his not being in the house on the former discussion, when he thought the house had not very properly rescinded the order it had before made for the printing of the charge. It was true, that the charge rested at present upon little more than the assertion of an hon. member, who, though unsupported and unprotected, made no motion which the proceedings of the house did not tolerate; but at present it was no
940
Mr. Sheridan
observed that the hon. gent., in renewing his charges that day, had expressed a hope that he should not meet, from certain individuals, a repetition of the harsh treatment he had experienced on a former night. He was at some loss to understand to what it was the hon. member made this allusion. He was sure that nothing of an improper nature would have been suffered to pass without the interposition of the chair. Who the in-
941
now
Mr. Lee
adverted to the four precedents alluded to by the hon. mover, and contended that they made against the order of his proceeding. In the case of lord Coningsbv, the evidence was previously brought and laid upon the table. Four years before the impeachment of Mr. Hastings, a committee was appointed, to enquire into his conduct, and made their report against him; after which, Mr. Burke came down to the house, and after the report was received, moved that it should be printed before he exhibited the articles of charge. In the third case, that of sir
942
Mr. Secretary Windham
declared his opinion to be decidedly in favour of printing the charge, and he could not help considering the treatment experienced by the hon. member who brought them forward, as extremely harsh: for instead of stretching out to him the hand of encouragement to prosecute enquiry in the cause of justice against a person high in power, he had met with nothing but discouragement; he had been thwarted and embarrassed in every step he had taken; nay, exposed almost to personal disrespect, sarcasm, and even ridicule. Such a conduct from any portion of the house towards any individual member, certainly was not very decorous, nor yet very politic, as it tended to discourage members from bringing forward impeachments, when, to their own minds and conviction, they conceived themselves warranted so to do, by acts of public delinquency. If this were a case where the accuser was considered and known to be a person of such character and description, or the charges themselves,
primâ facie,
943
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, he should vote for printing the charge. There was no great difference between himself and his rt.hon. friend (Mr. Windham) on the general principle. He agreed with him, that any member of the house had a right to present a charge. He would go farther, and allow that it was regular that a day should be appointed for its consideration. But now they were on a question, whether it should be printed without evidence, or scarcely any notice of evidence. He would not even there differ with his right hon. friend, as to the right, but at the same time when a member did this, without there being any necessity for it, he must say that his mode of proceeding was injudicious; and that he would have done much better, had he waited for the evidence. He might then say, 'there is the evidence, and you may compare the evidence with the charge,' and know how far it is well founded. Now it was possible, undoubtedly, that a member in calling for papers, might be told when his object was not exactly understood, "bring forward your charge, otherwise we will not grant you your papers." But, in this case, a variety of motions for papers had been made, none of which had been over-ruled, at least none that had been made by the hon. gent. himself. But he might have proceeded in another way, and have said, "there is the charge, and, to prove this, such and such papers are necessary." But the hon. gent. moved for a variety of papers first, and then brought forward a charge to which scarcely one of them applied. This conduct he certainly thought preposterous in the truest sense of
944
945
Mr. Paull
explained. He said, that out of 99 papers, for which he had moved, only 11 were produced; of these, only 3 were immediately relevant to his purpose. The Bhurtpore papers were not presented, nor any others that he moved for, except those relative to Oude.
Sir A. Wellesey
said, that the practice of parliament in such cases had already been shewn to be, that the evidence, should generally, if not always, precede the charges, and he saw no necessity for deviating from that rule on the present occasion; though he admitted, that every case should stand upon its own peculiar merits. The charge of the hon. gent. against his noble relation, was for squandering the money of the East-India Co. in unnecessary purposes of personal splendour; but the papers hitherto produced (those of Oude) applied to charges of which as yet he had given no notice. With regard to the money taken from the Canton treasury, his answer to it was, that this and other proceedings which were adverted to, had received the approbation of the court of directors, and that if the money were so disposed of, there was a proportionate increase of assets both a. home and abroad. As to the observation that he himself was implicated in some of the proceedings, his short reply was, that what he did in India, was in obedience to the orders .he had received; and for the manner of that obedience, and its immediate result, he was ready to answer, either to that house, or to any other tribunal the realm.
Dr. Laurence
adverted to the precedents which had been quoted in the course of the debate, particularly that of Mr. Hastings, none of which he conceived bore on the present case. He, declared, that his sense of the business would have been, for the hon. gent. who made the motion, to have withdrawn it, and waited until the evidence was before the house; but, as he had not thought proper to do that, he could not, as the business now stood, see an good reason against printing the charge.
Lord H. Petty
was inclined to think that it would have been much better if the hon. gent. who made the motion, had agreed to time first suggestion of the learned
946
Mr. Bathurst
was of opinion, that this motion ought not to. have been pressed, but he did not think because it was pressed, that therefore the house should agree to it. He did not pretend to say, that there were no cases in which charges might be produced before evidence, but he believed there were none except those with which, as they originated at home, the members were acquainted. The hon. gent. then said, that as the hon. mover would not agree to withdraw his motion, he thought a motion for the order of the day would be most applicable, and concluded by moving the previous question.
Mr. Corry
seconded the motion, as, he said, it would put the parties into a relative situation, one with another. It would be no hardship to the hon. gent. who made the original motion, as the papers to substantiate the charge were not before the house; and it would appear as if the house of commons were resolved to support him throughout, if the paper were allowed to be printed.
Mr. W. Smith
said, it appeared to him to be rather an irregular mode to print the charge before all the evidence was produced. The very circumstance of some of the evidence being already before the house, was a reason against it, and he therefore would vote against the original motion.
Mr. Johnstone,
in part, coincided in opinion with the right hon. secretary of state, He, however, differed with him in many essential points; and, after arguing the question for some time, he declared that hi felt himself precluded altogether from giving any vote on the occasion.
Mr. Grant
said, that if the question before the house were to be influenced by the expectation of having the papers which were moved for, laid upon the table in a short time, he thought it a duty to state his opinion that this expectation could not be fulfilled. The court of directors was always
947
Mr. Windham,
in explanation, said that when he had before delivered his opinion, he conceived that the hon. gent. would have withdrawn his motion, but he now thought, that the motion lately made by his hon. friend, reconciled every thing, and he would support it.
948
Mr. Paull,
desired to he informed, what mode of proceeding he should adopt, as he did not wish to persist against the sense of the house?
The Speaker
wished to know the hon. gent.'s object before he gave any opinion, namely, whether the hon. gent. meant to withdraw his motion, or put it to the vote?
Mr. Paull
expressed his willingness to yield to the wishes of the house. Therefore, although contrary to his own opinion, he should, agreeably to what appeared to be the prevailing sentiment, consent to withdraw his motion.
Mr. Bathurst
observed that his motion was in the hands of the house. Upon which a division was called for; the gallery was ordered to be cleared, but after some conversation both motions were withdrawn.
[PIG IRON DUTY BILL.] Lord H. Petty then moved, that this bill be read a second time.
Mr. Rose
said, that from all the enquiries he had been able to make, and all the information he had collected on this subject, it appeared to him that this tax would be of great detriment to the general interests of the country. He contended that it would bear harder on the farming interest alone, than the duty on horses employed in agriculture, which had been proposed and abandoned during the last session. Besides which, its operation would extend to almost every species of manufacture carried on in this country.
Lord H. Petty
said, that he was aware of a variety of objections to which the bill was liable; though he was decidedly of opinion that the inconveniences attending the tax had been considerably over-rated. He should wish, however, that full time should be allowed for the mature consideration of the tax in all its bearings and consequences; and on this account he would propose, that the bill be now read a 2d time, and that the house should enter more fully into its merits in the committee, on Friday next.
Sir J. Wrottesley,
with a view to disencumber the debate on Friday, would ask now, whether any thing was proposed to be done to obviate the difficulty of giving a sufficient drawback to the manufacturers engaged in the export trade? A number of gentlemen in town, whose opinions deserved the attention of the house, thought the proposed drawback insufficient, as it seemed the utmost to be allowed, did not ex-
949
l
Lord H. Petty
stated the amount of deduction for iron used in the ordnance, and for the navy departments, to be altogether 51,460
l
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l
l
l
l
Mr. Wilberforce
considered this tax as so inconsistent with the fundamental principles of taxation in its tendency and effects, that he trusted the noble lord would see reason to withdraw it. On this account he would leave it to the calm consideration of his own mind.
Mr.I H. Browne
said, that he would have objected to the tax upon the first proposition of it, if it were not for his reluctance to oppose a plan of taxation founded generally upon the views and system of his late right hon. friend, the predecessor of the noble lord.
Lord A. Hamilton
expressed his disapprobation of the tax, but reserved the avowal of the particular grounds of his opposition until the bill was committed.
Mr. Vansittart
observed, that, in the committee, many modifications of the bill could take place. An hon. baronet had mistaken the extent of the proposed drawback; 4
l
Mr. canning
felt reluctance in opposing any of the measures for procuring supplies in the present situation of the country. But the objections to the present tax were so numerous, and had been so strongly urged in various representations which he had received on the subject, that he would recommend it to the noble lord, to turn over in his own mind the possibility of substituting some other less objectionable tax in its room. He contended that it would raise half as much more from the agricultural interest alone, than had been proposed by the tax on horses employed in hus-
950
Mr. Fellowes
was not apprehensive that the tax on iron would affect the farming interest in the proportion which had been mentioned; but he feared it would go a great way towards anni
Mr. W. Smith
said, it was not only in the iron used for shoeing horses that the farmer would seriously feel the tax, but in other uses, which made the consumption with him large.
Mr. Rose
said, that a farmer who had four horses in his team, would pay at least 40
s.
Mr. Babington
thought that the general effect of the tax would be severe; but in checking the machinery of the country, he apprehended its operation would be particularly injurious.—The bill was then read a 2d time, and committed for Friday. The order of the day for the committee on the Property Tax bill on Friday was discharged, and the same-ordered for Monday next.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 29.
[MINUTES.]
The house met at 10, and about 11 proceeded to Westminster-hall, to attend the trial of lord viscount Melville.—The bills on the table were previously forwarded in their respective stages. Amongst these, the 3 million Exchequer Bills bill, the Tea Duty bill, the Irish Bank Note bill, and the Irish House Tax Repeal bill, were read a third time and passed.—Their lordships returned to the house about a quarter before four.—Strangers were for some time excluded, during which an order was made to proceed on the trial of lord Melville the next morning, and a message was ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
[WITNESSES' DECLARATORY BILL.]
The house then took into consideration the amendments made by the Commons in the Declaratory bill respecting the liability of Witnesses to answer. A conversation of considerable length ensued, in which lords Eldon, Hawkesbury, Holland, Ellenborough, and the lord chancellor; the earls of Suffolk, Rosslyn, and Stanhope; and the duke of Norfolk, took a part.
Lord Hawkesbury
moved,"that the farther consideration of the amendments be post-
951
Lord Eldon
thought the bill wanted some farther alteration or amendment, not deeming it, in its present shape, a bill declaratory of the law, as declared by the learned judges, or the greater part of them; or according to their conceptions of what the law really was, as he had an opportunity of knowing, from a personal communication with some of them. Its tenour was different from that of other declaratory bills, for it went to declare, not what the law was, but what the law was not. He thought, under what had been thrown out on the subject, they should pause, and not pass the bill in its present shape. It involved legal considerations of the greatest importance, and in a way likely to affect many of their lordships, for instance, those who were great landed proprietors. The word "only" in the bill, on which so much stress had been laid, as rendering the declaration sufficiently definite, and as likely to prove a sufficient guide for the judges in the courts below, he thought would not be so efficacious, and in the interval proposed, he thought he should be able to determine upon some further amendments, which would produce the desired effect.
The Lord Chancellor
defended the bill in its present shape, upon the legal grounds he had formerly adduced in support of it; and contended, that the declaration, as so worded, would, by confining it to the single species of demurrer, be a sufficient rule for the learned judges. The bill, however, he observed, had improperly been called
his
952
Lord Hawkesbury
in further explanation, observed, that though the bill, with the amendments, might have lain for several days upon the table, yet it was incumbent upon those, in the case of a legislative measure of such importance, urging the passing of the bill so amended, to give some notice of the time they proposed for the consideration of such amendments, and to have the lords summoned thereupon.—After some further discussion, the question was put, and the original motion for taking the amendments into immediate consideration, was negatived without a division. The amendments made by the commons were then formally taken into consideration and agreed to.
[CORN.] Earl Stanhope
rose to make a motion, which, in his mind, was of the utmost urgency. He had been given to understand by a noble lord (Auckland), that there would be no objection to the motion with which he should conclude; but he felt its object to be of so much importance in its nature and probable effects, that no time should be lost in submitting it to their lordships.
Lord Ellenborough
rose to observe, that if the motion which the noble lord meant to bring forward, was of such very great importance, he begged leave to submit to him, whether it was not improper to bring it forward in so thin a house.
Earl Stanhope
said, that the object of his motion, in the first instance, was merely to move for important information to be laid before the house. If the noble and learned lord had been in possession of that information, he would not be so forward in proposing delay, and that respecting a matter which so vitally concerned the great majority of the community. The most imminent danger hung over the present situation of the country, and not only the comforts, but the wants of the people might be put to hazard.
Lord Ellenborough
rose again, and called the noble lord to order. It could not be fairly said of him, that he treated any thing that regarded the subject with levity. No man was more alive to the interests of the subject than he was; and he could give no better proof of that respect for them, than
953
Earl Stanhope
contended, that the learned lord seemed not to be aware of the difficulties and dangers to which he alluded. There was no knowing to what an alarming degree a scarcity might soon be experienced. The experience of former times should have taught us better. It ought to be recollected, that in the course of 15 years, about 45 millions sterling had been sent out of the country for the purchase of corn and grain, &c. when even there existed more facilities of procuring it, than we were likely soon to possess. The ports of the Baltic would be, or were already, shut against us; and whither were we then to look for any immediate supply? With the intention of bringing this subject more fully and fairly before their lordships, he should now move, that there be laid before the house an account of the quantity of corn, grain, rice, &c. imported into G. Britain since the 1st of Jan. 1806; also an account of the exports of the same during the same period.
Lord Moira
could not remain silent, after hearing and weighing the tendency of the assertions made by the noble earl. He did riot rise to oppose the motion, but to observe somewhat upon the tone and arguments with which it was introduced. He did not pretend to be in possession of the minute and accurate information upon this subject, which he knew might be brought forward by his noble friend (lord Auckland), but still he thought himself bound in duty to counteract, as far as lay in his power, the ill effects which might arise from the alarming language and insinuations held and thrown out by the noble earl upon such a delicate and important matter. As far, therefore, as he had any knowledge of the present state of the country, and of the very promising aspect of a plenteous harvest, he would readily take upon himself to assert, that there was no room whatsoever to entertain the most distant apprehension of the danger the noble earl seemed to forebode with so much emphasis and earnestness. He was sorry such an idea should go abroad upon such grave authority: and he was conscious it was his duty, as far as in him lay, to set the little authority he might have upon that point, in opposition to that of the noble earl.
Lord Auckland
could not well express his thanks to the noble earl who spoke last for the favour he had done him, by taking off
954
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, April 29.
[MINUTES.]
The house met at ten o'clock, pursuant to order, for the purpose of proceeding to Westminster-hall to prosecute the trial of lord Melville. The managers left the house first, and repaired to the place assigned them in the court, after which the members went out according to the alphabetical order of their several counties, beginning with the English counties and ending with those of Ireland. About four o'clock the house returned to its ordinary place of meeting, for the dispatch of business, as usual.—A message from the lords announced their assent to the Irish Bank Note bill, the Exchequer Bills bill, the Tea Duty bill, and the Irish Hearth Duty Repealing bill; and also that the lords had determined to proceed further in the trial of lord Melville the next morning at ten of the clock. The Speaker then took this opportunity of stating that he would, as he had done that day, attend punctually at ten o'clock the next day; that at a quarter past ten the serjeant at
955
[ELECTION TREATING BILL.] Mr. 
Tierney
moved the further consideration of the report of this bill, for the purpose of having it recommitted, as the amendments made in the former committee did not meet the approbation of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) not then in his place. It was suggested to him, that he should allow the voter to be conveyed at the expence
956
Sir R. Buxton
thought that the candidate ought to be at no expence with respect to the voters, and would rather have the law as it was, than agree to pass the bill with the amendment.
Mr. Paull
thought that, however the bill might be disguised, its effect would be, to diminish the number of voters, and for that reason he would oppose it.
Lord A. Hamilton
said that his objections went to the principle of the bill; and as to the recommitment, there was only one clause in the bill, and that one involved the principle itself, He was against it therefore, though he believed the right hon. gent. could have no motives in this business except such as were pure and honourable.
Mr. Tierney
said he had no personal interest whatever in the bill; as, in the place he represented, the law on that point was already settled, and he only wished to extend the benefit of it to all parts of the country. He would rather give up the bill altogether, than have any new doubts started on the law. He stated before, that he did not object to the candidate providing carriages, but the giving of money for that purpose. This bill was no more than explanatory of the act of William III. and he thought if it should be rejected, it would be right, for the purpose of ending all doubts, to declare, that the candidate should in future pay the conveyance, as well as the expence of travelling.
Mr. Francis
thought that the amendment would alter the principle of the bill considerably. Carriages were to be allowed to convey the voters, but how were they to be conveyed; alive or dead? An hon. gent. behind him whispered "dead drunk." Well, be it so; but if you gave the voter nothing to eat or drink, in a journey of 200 miles, he would scarcely he alive by the time he came to the place of polling; or, if he were alive, he would not be able to vote.
Mr. Baker
contended that the candidate ought to be at no expence; but this bill would do so little, that he thought it better the law should remain as it was.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
thought this bill better than no bill at all, as it was impossible to leave the matter as it was. He
957
Mr. Graham
no longer Considered it as the same bill to which he had given his support. He thought that the right. hon. gent. had now completely abandoned the original principle with Which he had set out. The subsistence of the voter was as necessary to be provided for as his conveyance. He stated that he had been credibly informed that the last contested elections for Middlesex had cost the patties 30,000
l
Mr. Rose
thought the country was under great obligations to the right hon. gent. for bringing the matter forward; as it was necessary that the point should be decided in one way or the other. He was rather indifferent in which way that decision should be made; but he preferred the mode of exempting the candidate, as it would be impossible to equalize the expences; for 2
s
s
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, April 30
[MINUTES.]
Their lordships met again this day, at ten o'clock; and after reading a part of the bills upon the table, they were marshalled in the same order and manner as yesterday, and repaired to the high court of parliament, in Westminster-hall. At four o'clock their lordships returned to the house, in which they remained for some time in close discussion; the order for the exclusion of strangers being strictly enforced. The bills upon the table were forwarded, and
958
[BECKWITH'S ESTATE BILL.]
On the order for the second reading of this bill,
The Duke of Norfolk
strongly objected to it, chiefly in point of principle, as alienating, in the way proposed, a portion of ecclesiastical property; and as tending to set a precedent of the most dangerous nature in that respect.
The Bishop of St. Asaph
defended the bill, chiefly on the ground of its particular merits, and the circumstances under which it proceeded. In this view, the reverend prelate was led into a detailed consideration of the measure. He as little wished to see numerous bills of the kind, as the noble duke possibly could; but it did not follow, that cases might not arise in which such a legislative measure might be proper. He strongly recommended the bill going to a committee, in which the adequacy of its provisions might be fairly considered; and where it would be seen, that a full and honest equivalent for the transfer of the Property, was proposed, and that the lessee had dealt even liberally on the occasion.
Lord Eldon
as being decidedly hostile to the principle of the bill, was rather averse from considering the propriety of such a measure under the particular circumstances of the case. The precedents which had been adduced, instead of favouring, went, he thought, in condemnation of the measure. The noble and learned lord then went into a detailed view Of some of the provisions of the bill; the effect of several of which he seemed to disapprove.
The Bishop Lincoln
concurred with the noble duke and the learned lord, that the principle on which the bill was founded, as a general one, was strongly to be reprobated. However, when he considered the peculiar circumstances which gave rise to the present bill, he had no appehension of many applications being made to parliament, for measures of the kind; the rev. prelate then entered into rather a detailed statement of the attendant circumstances. His lordship defended the bill under the peculiar circumstances, and urged the propriety of its going to a committee, where it might be modified so as to do away many objections. He thought the measure itself would be productive of much
959
Lord Ellenborough
felt his objections to the principle of the bill so strongly, that nothing which a committee could do, could reconcile him to it. In a more enlarged view of the possible effects of such a principle, he was led to consider the sacredness of the ecclesiastical property of the country, and alluded to a project Which was entertained even by a member of that house, for laying hands on the same, for state purposes, towards the close of the American war. He adverted to the deplorable consequences which had resulted in France, from acting on such principle: and deprecated the steps which were now taking upon it, in a part of the Spanish dominions. After animadverting on these important considerations, he reverted to the bill in question, and censured its principle, among other very objectionable points of view, as tending to the extinction of the prebendal character. Deeming the bill incurable in a committee, he felt it his duty to oppose its further progress.
Lord Holland
thought it but fair the bill should go to a committee; and, after some observations upon part of what had fallen from the noble and learned lords, said, the third reading of the bill would afford a more regular opportunity for discussing the principle of it.
Earl Spencer
was of opinion the bill should be suffered, at least, to go to a committee, were it only in justice to the parties; in this view, he made some observations on what had been alledged in favour of the bill, of which he thought several of the kind had met with the sanction of parliament.
The Lord Chancellor
made a few remarks on what had transpired in the course of discussion; under the circumstances of such a bill as that under consideration, he thought the present not the stage to resist the principle of the bill, which, he was of opinion, ought to go to a committee.—Lord Eldon and the duke of Norfolk spoke shortly in explanation.—The question was then put, and their lordships divided; when there appeared, For the second reading of the bill, 9; against it, 5.—The bill was then ordered to be referred to the consideration of a committee.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, April 30.
[MINUTES.]
A message was received from the lords, stating, that they had agreed
960
961
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE ACT.] Mr. Secretary Windham
moved the order of the day for the 2d reading of the repealing the Additional Force act
Sir James Pulteney
rose to oppose the bill. He did not object to it from a principle of opposition to his majesty's ministers, but from the real convictions of his own mind; and whether connected or unconnected with ministers, he should have felt it his duty to have pursued precisely the same course, as if it was avowedly the object of this bill to make way for the adoption of another measure to which his dislike was equally strong. His reason for opposing the repeal of the Additional Force act proceeded from two distinct grounds: namely, the great military principle, and what he should call the civil or minor principle. The military principle was that by which men were to be enlisted for the service, first, for a limited term of 5 years, and afterwards, if they should choose it, in a second battalion, with additional bounty for general service, without limitation of time or place. This he considered as a principle perfectly consistent with the spirit and objects of military service. The second principle, or that of raising men by the influence or authority of the parish officers, he considered much less important, and, for argument sake, he was willing to give it up, as wholly inadequate to any eligible or permanent purpose; but for maintenance of the first principle, he was not only disposed, but ready to contend. In the first place, he thought it rather extraordinary that the rt. hon. gent. should propose the repeal of a bill, the leading principle of which was to give the recruit an option of enlisting either for limited or general service; and this at the very time when he avowed his intention, under this proposed modification, to adopt that principle as one of his indispensible propositions. But though the bill now proposed to be repealed gave to the recruit an option for the limitation of his services to time and place, the latter he thought the still stronger inducement, and that which, if any thing could more strongly than another reconcile the recruit to enlistment it was this. Yet it was found by experience, that in point of fact this option had no material influence whatever in preventing men who enlisted for limited service, to extend the term afterwards by enlisting for general service, and for life. In fact, the military principle of the present bill was such as to adapt itself to any mind, whether
962
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964
965
Mr. Mainwaring
in a maiden speech, apologized for presuming to obtrude himself upon the House before so many other gentlemen infinitely more competent than he could pretend to be; but having pledged himself to express his opinion upon the subject, and feeling that, in an advanced stage of the debate, and after the delivery of abler opinions, and the display of so much powerful elo-
966
967
onus
well
Mr. Canning
rose and spoke as follows:—I gave way, sir, with the greatest satisfaction to the hon. gent. who opened this debate; because in the very extraordinary situation in which the house is at present plac-
968
969
970
971
972
973
974
975
Pro tanto
976
977
978
979
980
981
982
983
vestigia nulla restiosum,
984
985
986
987
988
989
990
991
belli simulacra
992
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997
998
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1000
1001
Mr. Wilberforce
complimented the rt. hon. gent. on the very extraordinary talents which lie had just displayed. He thought, however, that to the question before the house, viz. whether the Additional Force act should, or should not be repealed, he had said but little. To this point, therefore, he should confine his own observations. As an independent member of parliament, unconnected with any party, he felt it his duty to vote for the repeal of the bill, because he thought it vicious in its principle, and impotent in its operation. On this subject he had obtained information from those who were better qualified to judge of it than himself. Those whose knowledge enabled them to make an accurate estimate of its merits; those even who originally were prepossessed in its favour, now declared that the bill had been utterly unproductive. He had applied to several of the most experienced magistrates in the East Riding and the West Riding of Yorkshire. The former was thinly inhabited, the latter was very populous;. they were therefore under different, and indeed opposite circumstances, yet similar answers had been returned from both districts. In the East Riding he had been told that not one man was obtained; in the West Riding, that it had completely failed. He subse-
1002
1003
Mr. Long
said, that when in opening a new plan, the rt. hon. secretary, had joined with his other propositions, one for the repeal of this act, he must consider those propositions as connected with this subject. The object proposed was an increase of the military force, in which all agreed. This he would effect, by additional honours and distinctions, and by an increase of pay; but his principle expedient was that of enlisting for a limited time. The recommendation of this practice from the customs of other countries was not sufficient. Our colonial system of itself furnished a strong objection. The nature of our situation was widely different from that of those upon the conti-
1004
1005
Mr. Hawthorne
said, that feeling himself in the predicament stated by the rt. gent. (Mr. Long), who had just sat down of having originally voted against this measure, and afterwards opposed its repeal, he was desirous of trespassing Upon the house as shortly as possible, in order to, state the grounds upon which he should now support this motion for the second reading of the bill.—He agreed with the rt. hon. gent., that they all had but one common object, that of providing for the augmentation of the army, and it was because this law had ,completely failed to accomplish that. object. That he now voted for its repeal —In order to bring this question fairly before the house, he should endeavour to spew what this measure had proposed to accomplish, and what had been accomplished the means which the law provided for carrying it into effect, and the means which had been actually employed in its execution. It was in the first place proposed to raise a limited force, which whilst it provided for home defence, would set at liberty equivalent proportion of unlimited or disposable force 2dly, To Make this limited force a source of additional supply to the regular army, in aid of ordinary recruiting. And, 3dly, To accomplish this, not only without interfering with the recruiting of the disposable force, but to remove the obstacles and impediments that had hitherto obstructed that service, by reason of the competition between those recruiting for the limited force, and those recruiting for the disposable force, and to keep the recruiting of the two species of force entirely distinct.—To effect this, the recruiting for the limited force, was to be carried on by the parish officer with a limited bounty, aided, in case of his failure, by the regimental recruiter, for a limited bounty likewise, thus extending itself, as stated by an hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce), over the Whole surface of the country but in order to prevent competition with each other, or with the disposable force, being restricted within certain pre-
1006
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1008
1009
1010
1011
1012
1013
Mr. Lascelles
as he differed from his hon colleague (Mr. Wilberforce) in the vote he meant to give, thought it, necessary to state his reasons for voting as he should do on this occasion. He agreed, however, with his hon. colleague, that the then could not be raised as the act directs. Yet he should not vote for its repeal, because the rt. hon. gent. had brought forward the measures for its repeal in conjunction with other measures, Until he should be able to judge of those other measures. The question was not, whether this bill was to he continued, bill whether the house should give it up before they knew what was to be substituted for it. For his own part, he should not agree to give up any measure that produced any supply to the military force of the country for any theories of any rt. hon. gent. He did not mean to anticipate what might be the measures to be produced by the rt. hon. gent., but should say, that from his opening statement of them, they appeared to him extremely disgusting to the Volunteers, and extremely ineffectual as to the training of the Levy en Masse. If the bill proposed to be repealed had not produced,then, it certainly had not produced agitation, ferment, and apprehension in every part of the Country.
Lord Euston
concurred in opinion with the last speaker; but, from the low tone iii which his lordship spoke, we could not collect his arguments.
Mr. G. Vansittart
conceived the question before the house to be simply this; whether, for the purpose of raising men for the army, parish officers should be preferred to recruiting officers? and also, whether the, parishes should he subject to a penalty of 20l. for not raising men whom it was out of their power to procure? There was no degree of necessity which could warrant such a measure, so oppressive was it in its operation; and yet he was persuaded that more men could be had from the regular recruiting. In the
1014
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
had certainly many objections to the bill, the repeal of which had been moved; but still he would contend, that it had not had fair play. As to the other topics that were to follow, in consequence of the general plan of the rt. hon. gent., he should have thought that. rt. hon. gent. the last man to propose a limited service. How often had he declared against the ill effects of such a system, as manifest in the militia. In short, he thought the plan in contemplation went to tamper with, the militia, to tamper with the levy eat masse, to tamper with the Volunteers, and with the whole of the existing military establishment. With respect to the Volunteers, he thought it would be a gross violation of the public faith, more especially after the solemn vote of thanks which had passed that house in their favour.
Mr. R. Thornton
supported the original motion, although he was formerly an advocate for the bill which it proposed to repeal; but he was disappointed in effects promised from it. Some men were no doubt raised be it, but the means adopted were extremely exceptionable. From inquiry he learnt that the expedient resorted to in several parishes for procuring men was this; the men not being raised in due time, the parish officers levied the 20l. penalty, out of which they took so much as, added to the sum allowed by government for each man, actually made up a bounty of 271. The balance of the penalty was used in the same way, and thus by high bounties the men recently raised were induced to enlist.
Mr. Bastard
said, he disapproved of every limb of the Minerva which had lately sprung from the rt. hon. secretary's brain, and hoped it would prove equally objectionable to the house. The rt. hon. gent. would base the country to rely altogether on a standing army, but he deprecated the idea. The battles alluded to by rt. hon. gent. on a
1015
Lord De Blaquiere
did not think it fair to consider the Additional Force act as an abstract proposition. Its repeal made part of the system of the rt. hon. gent. who presided over the war department, and it was not possible to discuss it without adverting to his plan. The impression upon his mind was, that the rt. hon. gent. wished to lower the volunteer system from what he stated in his opening speech. There might be defects in that system, but he would not consent to part with it, until the rt. hon. gent. came forward with something in its place. The objections to the allowance of rank he could not consider as unfounded. It was certainly a privilege which had been profusely bestowed. It put him in mind of What took place in Ireland formerly under the old militia, of which there was a corps in the county of Cork, consisting of only 20 men, and in which there were lieut. colonels. He gave his support to the amendment.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
was not surprised that the gentlemen who supported the bill, wished to confine the discussion to it, and wave the consideration of the other ports of the new system. They were aware that much prejudice against the act which it was proposed to repeal, existed both in and out of that house, and they resolved to rely rather upon the objections to the bill than upon the merits of their own plan. He complained, that in a particular county, Berks,
1016
Mr. C. Dundas
vindicated the conduct of the magistrates and parish officers of Berkshire, who could not, he contended, succeed in raising the men required, unless they violated the provisions of the act under consideration, both with regard to the bounty, and to the space presented. The hon. gent. observed that the execution of the act was quite impracticable. He remembered a letter to have been sent by the secretary of state to the lord sent of Berkshire, requiring him to assemble the parish officers of the county, and to call upon them to execute the act. But the answer of the lord lieut. very properly was to this requisition, that he had no power to call the parish officers together, or to enforce the execution of the act. And in point of fact, no such power did or does exist. From this instance it would be seen what provisions the authors of this law had made for its enforcement, and what knowledge they must have possessed of the details necessary to the promotion of that object—After a few words from lord Stanley, generals Norton and Mr. Golding, the house divided on Mr. Canning's amendment, Ayes 235, Noes 119, Majority 116.
Lord Castlereagh
expressed his determination to oppose the bill in every stage of it. He felt it to be his duty to embrace every opportunity of discussing the new military philosophy proposed by the rt. hon. gent. He would not go into the question at so late an hour. As to the manner in which it was argued by his rt. hon. friend (Mr. Canning), he was persuaded a very large proportion of
1017
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, he thought he now understood the rt. hon. gent. (alluding, we understand, to something said by Mr. Canning, while strangers were excluded). Every man to be sure, might choose his own way of discussing a proposition, so those who opposed the bill brought in by his rt. hon. friend might wish to avoid entering into the merits or defects of the act it was intended to repeal; but, for his part, he would not discuss other measures while a particular bill was under consideration. He was not indeed surprised that they should abandon the defence of their favourite Additional Force act, and endeavour to fasten upon the other parts of the plan proposed by his rt. hon. friend. The rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Calming) had displayed no little share of dexterity in evading tile discussion of the only question which was before the house. He would admit that his speech was a most able one, but still it appeared to him to have one defect, and that was, that no part of it was directed to the consideration of the act it was proposed to repeal. He would be as ready to meet the rt. hon. gent. on that subject, as he would on the other parts of the plan, when they should be regularly submitted to the house.
Mr. Canning
could not conceive why the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) should think it extraordinary that the system which he produced in an elaborate speech of 4 hours should be discussed. For what purpose did he bring it forward, if it was not intended that it should be considered by every man in the country? Was a system over which the whole nation was lamenting, which had filled with alarm and dismay every man in it, to be passed over in silence? If a man proposed a series of resolutions, and concluded a 4 hours' speech with moving the first of them, were you to be debarred from considering the whole? The rt. hon. gent. was much mistaken, if he supposed then was any shyness on that side to encounter his system, than which there could be no thing more preposterous and absurd; a system calculated to shake the whole of our military establishment, to produce dissatisfaction in the army, and to make it daub of the propriety of its existence. A system—(Here there was a cry of order from lord Temple) Mr. Canning wished the noble lore to state his reasons for calling him to order.
Lord Temple.
—The rt. hon. gent. has
1018
Mr. Canning.
—I trust, Mr. Speaker, we are not come to those times when a strong government, which shall he unable to answer an argument, shall be able to put it down. I trust, sir, that we are not to have silence imposed upon us in this house. I do hope that the noble lord, and those who are connected with him in his majesty's govt. will not deprive us of the liberty of speech; that we shall be allowed the freedom of discussing their measures. I do hope that the noble lord does not mean to have recourse to a plan of which I have formerly heard. It was once observed to Mr. Burke, by a member of this house, that he was surprised ministers, instead of debating, did not try the effect of silence in that house; to which he answered "that they had tried it, and "they found it would not do." So I will tell the noble lord. Why did his rt. hon. friend bring forward his plan before the recess, if he does not mean to proceed with it immediately? Does he mean that it should go forward, or does he not?. I think I have a right to ask that question.
Mr. Windham
did not think the mariner in which he was questioned entitled to an answer. He was however fully prepared to assure the house, that no change had taken place in his mind respecting the measures which were connected with the motion the house had decided on, and he should bring them forward when they were its their due state of preparation.
Colonel Craufurd
conceived the statement of the rt, hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Canning) to he of a most mischievous tendency, and he thought he ought to have been stopped before.
The Speaker
submitted it to the judgment of the house whether he deserved this reproof.
Colonel Craufurd
said, that nothing was more distant from his intention than any such reproof. He meant that the rt. hon. gent. ought to have been sooner stopped by some other member, for that. his language was calculated to produce discontent in the army.
Mr. Perceval
asked, was the country now in a situation that deprived members of that house from stating what they conceived might be the mischievous consequences of
1019
Mr. Sheridan
said, that the question was taken up in a tone and manner neither suited to the house, nor to the subject under discussion. His rt. hon. friend had been called to order. He should riot now say that he was disorderly; but he would say, that the language used by him was unsuitable and unseemly. It declared no less than that the measures proposed by his rt. hon. friend were of a nature to shake the security of our military system, and make them doubt the propriety of their existence. Such language was a double libel, a libel upon the army, whom it supposed capable of doubting of their due existence, and a libel on the house, that it was supposed to have entertained any thing that could have such a tendency.
Mr. Canning
declared that as long as he bad the honor of a seat in that house, he should speak his sentiments freely and openly, and not be deterred by the noble lord, or any other person, even a minister, from performing what he conceived to be his duty.
Lord Castlereagh
wished to know when it was intended to go into a committee on the bill. After some conversation between the noble lord, Mr. Fox, and Mr. Windham, it was agreed that the bill should be committed on Tuesday next.—Adjourned at 2 o'clock.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, May 1.
[MINUTES.]
The home met at 10 o'clock, and, after reading the bills on the table, proceeded, about 11, to Westminster Hall, to attend the trial of lord visc. Melville. About a quarter past 4 their lordships returned, and continued for some time in discussion, during which strangers were excluded. An order was made to proceed again to-morrow on the trial of lord Melville, and a message sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.—Mr. Jones, marshal of the King's Bench prison, and Mr. Nixon, deputy warden of the Fleet Prison, presented, pursu-
1020
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 1.
[MINUTES.]
The Foreign Linen Draw. back bill was read a first time.—A message was brought from the lords stating, that they had agreed to the Export and Import Duty bill, and to the Excise Duty bill, without any amendment. Also that their lordships would proceed farther in the trial of lord Melville to-morrow.—The Speaker informed the house, that he had received a letter from lord Collingwood, dated on board the Queen, at sea, March 24, 1806, in answer to his letter communicating to his lordship, to lord Northesk, and the captains, officers, seamen and marines who served under them in the Battle of Trafalgar, the thanks of the house for their conduct on that occasion, in which his lordship expressed his due sense of the honour conferred on them by so signal a mark of the approbation of the house, and declared his confidence that when a fresh opportunity presented itself, the fleet under his command would continue to merit the approbation of their country.—On the motion of the lord advocate of Scotland, the house went into a committee to consider the act of the 26th Geo. 3. ch.47, settling the Salaries of the Judge of the Admiralty in Scotland, and of the Commissaries of Edinburgh. On the motion of the learned lord, resolutions were afterwards introduced in the committee granting an additional salary to the judge of the admiralty in Scotland, of 4001. per annum; and to each of the judges of the commissary court, of 1501. per annum. And, on the motion of Mr. W. Dundas, it was ordered that these, together with the former salaries, be net salaries without any deduction.—Sir J. Newport moved that the order for the 2d reading of the Dublin paving bill be discharged, stating, that it was the intention of the Irish government to bring in a bill for a similar purpose.—Mr. Alexander brought up the Report of the Committee of Ways and Means of yesterday, when the Resolution extending the duty on
1021
[SLAVE IMPORTATION BILL.] The Attorney General
moved the order of the day for the third reading of this bill. On the question being put,
Mr. Rose
cautioned the house how they were deceived by mistaken ideas of humanity into the passing of this bill. No measure which had been brought forward for a long time could, he was convinced, inflict so deep and lasting a wound on the commerce of this country. He had communicated his sentiments on the subject to ministers. Whether they had attended to them, he could not say. But he now stated to the house, that the passing of this bill would occasion a loss to British manufacturers of not less than from 2 to 3 millions annually, besides lessening our export of East-India commodities; and this at a time when the north of Europe was almost closed against us, and when measures were taking in North America to narrow the introduction of our manufactures into that country. Neither would this bill tend to promote the cause of humanity. The Americans at present carried it on without any restriction, and not subject to those wise and humane regulations which parliament had enacted as binding upon their own subjects. The object of the framers of the bill on the score of humanity would not therefore be attained; while our trade with Africa, which was exceedingly important, would receive the most serious injury. He particularly objected to one clause of the bill, which enacted, that if any foreign vessel should take on board from this country, any manufactures to be disposed of in the African trade, it should be liable to be seized. No human ingenuity could devise a regulation more likely than this to endanger a breach of amity with North America, since vessels from that country were very frequently in the habit of fitting out from our ports for that very trade. Hs felt it his duty to make these observations, and expressed his conviction, that should the bill pass into a law, it would be attended with the most baneful effects.
Mr. Bagwell
supported the bill, but hoped it was not meant to be substituted for the total abolition, which, he was convinced, would accord better with the feelings of the present ministers. He was a friend to the present bill however, as he was convinced every friend to humanity must be. The Slave trade was an evil of which any diminution
1022
Sir R. Peele
took shame to himself for not having attended during the previous stages of this bill. He had not been aware that it was a bill so mischievous in its nature as he now found it to be. Instead of benefiting the cause of humanity, it would injure it exceedingly. What was given up here would be adopted elsewhere, without any of the humane regulations established by this country. Government surely did not wish to bring all human misery to a focus, and that that focus should be Great Britain! If we were, however, to philosophise, let us do so while our looms were full. Was it a reason because our artful enemy had at present succeeded in putting our trade to a stand, by driving our manufactures from the continent of Europe, that we should aid him in accomplishing his end, and should ourselves banish them from the colonies?
General Gascoyne
argued, that if slavery was to be tolerated, and the state of our colonies shewed that to be necessary, no mode of carrying on the trade could be better than that established for British vessels in the regulations enacted by parliament. If this bill were to pass, it would not prevent the importation of slaves into the colonies which was the object. The hon. general then proceeded to shew, that some of the provisions of the bill would tend to excite a breach between this country and America, and that its general object was inconsistent with the terms of capitulation granted to the enemies' colonies on their surrender. He concluded, by moving an amendment, that the bill be read a third time this day three months.
Sir W. Young
said, he thought the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) and the hon. baronet, who spoke last but one, were mistaken in their ideas of the injury it would be of to our commerce: He denied that so great a share of our manufactures were sent to Africa. In the port of Bristol, four ships in, five did not deal in slaves, and there were not more than 331 imported into all the islands which had been captured; indeed, except in two of those islands, there was not one imported. The merchants of this country had sent such a glut of goods and manufactures for some years past, that they had greatly injured the value of West India, produce, and the gentlemen who had estates, in the islands did not receive two-thirds from their estates of what they did 20 years
1023
Sir C. Price,
at the instance of several very respectable merchants of the City of London, was induced to oppose this bill, which if passed into a law, would be injurious to the country in general, and to London in particular. This was not a time to shut a door by which we were enabled to export Manufactures to the annual amount of 2,800,000l. In the present circumstances of the country, trade ought to be encouraged instead of being shut out from those places that were still left open to us. He was always willing to favour the cause of humanity, but this was neither the mode nor the time at which such a bill as the present ought to pass.
Mr. Secretary Fox
acknowledged the communication stated to have been made to his Majesty's ministers by the rt. hon. gent. who commenced the debate. He thanked him for that communication, and assured him that he had read it with minute attention; but he begged leave to say, that possessing still the same sentiments upon the subject of the Slave trade, which he had so uniformly protessed in that house, it was not very likely that the arguments urged by the rt. hon. gent. should change his sentiments. But if the statement was true which had been made by an hon. bart. and he was certainly good authority upon the subject, he could not easily perceive that such injuries were likely to result from the regulations of this bill, which the rt. hon. gent. seemed to apprehend. He was ready to admit, that any measure really tending to depress the commerce of the country should be avoided and especially in a period of war; but he should be glad to know how the rt. hon. gent. could apprehend such a consequence from a regulation of this sort now, when, during the last war, he was one of those who advised, and certainly well advised, his majesty to the issue of that proclamation, in virtue of his just prerogative, which this bill only went to confirm and render more effectual? As to this bill having an operation gradually to abolish the Slave trade, as some gentlemen seemed to apprehend, he owned he could not flatter himself in the hope that it would produce such a consequence; and if he thought it would have such a tendency, instead of that being
1024
1025
General Tarleton
observed, that this measure would prove highly injurious to our commerce and manufactures and was peculiarly impolitic at this time. He deprecated this proceeding highly, and hoped that the house would at least take time for consideration. He was sorry to observe that the ministers were much more active in injuring the trade of the country, than in providing for its defence. The house then divided on the question whether the bill should now be read a third time. Ayes 35. Noes 13. The bill was then read a third time and passed.
HOUSE OF LORDS
Friday, May 2.
[MINUTES.]
The house met at 10 o'clock, and proceeded about
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 2.
[MINUTES.]
A message from the lords informed the house that their lordships had agreed to the Appraisement Duty bill, and the Wine Duty bill, without any amendment. Also, that their lordships would proceed further with the trial of lord Melville to-morrow at 10 o'clock, in Westminster-hall.—Mr. Baker presented a petition from the malsters and makers of malt,
1026
[PIG IRON DUTY BILL.]
The order of the day for the house going into a committee on the Iron Duty bill being read.
Lord Henry Petty
observing that it was the wish of government to obviate, if possible, the various objections that had been, made to this measure, and that it was intended to introduce several amendments for that purpose, hoped there would be no objection to the bill's now passing through a committee,
pro forma,
Mr. Rose
said, be should not object to the proposition, though he did not think that any alteration or modification would make it palatable, or fit to be adopted,
Mr. Wilberforce
coincided in sentiment with his right hon. friend, but this was a strong reason why he should also consent to the proposition made by his noble friend opposite to him. For so full of confidence was he in the grounds of his opposition to this bill, that he was sure the more the objections to it were weighed the stronger they would appear. The tax would branch, out into such a variety of ramifications, and affect such a variety of important interests, that it could not be agreed to allow the noble lord the delay which he asked, and he had no doubt, that the noble lord himself would be
1027
Lord A. Hamilton
did not think he should discharge his duty to that part of the country which he represented, if he did not enter his protest against the measure,
Mr. Vansittart
observed, that though he did not think any thing could alter the opinion he entertained on the propriety of the measure, yet he should be glad to have time for considering a statement on the subject, which was this day put into his hands.—The bill was then committed
pro forma,
[SLAVE IMPORTATION BILL.] Mr. Wilberforce
in consequence of a difference of opinion, which took place the preceding night, on a matter of fact respecting tin Slave-trade, thought it was necessary for him, in support of his opinion, to move for certain papers. It had been stated, that very considerable trade in slaves had existed for a long time between the merchants o this country and the Spanish colonies it South America, He thought, in justice to his late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), and to himself, it was necessary to state the nature and origin of this trade. In the year 1797, when this country was actually at war with Spain, the government, having understood that there was no objection to receiving certain quantity of British manufactures in the Spanish colonies, issued an order of council from certain free ports in the West-Indies to the Spanish colonies. Afterwards they found, with gnat pain, that this order, which was made only with a view to the introduction of British manufactures, was made use of to cover a slave-trade. They therefore, in March, 1798, issued another order in council, and directions to the commanders of his Majesty's cruizers, in which order the word slaves was purposely omitted. The intention of the government had therefore been manifested for a long time against this branch of the slave-trade,
1028
Mr. Rose
contended that the Slave-trade, which was carried on in this manner with the Spanish colonies, was the means of introducing an immense quantity of British manufacture, which would otherwise have been excluded. In the course of a single year he had known no less than 113 vessels, laden with British manufacture, to arrive in the ports of Spanish America, carrying with them on an average about seven slaves each, which was but a colour to the more important trade, the sale of British manufactures. From the acquisition of Jamaica, down to the present reign, there had been always a trade with the Spanish colonies; and it appeared to him that the orders which were only relative to prize and capture could not interfere with the legality of the trade.
Mr. Francis
asked what the right hon. gent. supposed to be the average value of the cargoes of manufactures which had been in tins manner introduced?
Mr. Rose
replied, that vessels worth 50,000l. had found a market in the Spanish colonies for their cargoes under the colour of selling 12 or 15 slaves.
Mr. Wilberforce
denied that the sale of British manufactures was at all connected with that of slaves. The Spanish colonists could be supplied directly with slaves from the free ports under neutral flags, and therefore the 7 or 8 that might be brought in a British vessel could not be the reason of allowing the sale of British manufactures. He did not like the defence set up by the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) of the morality of smuggling, if the parties were content to run the risk of capture. He thought that this would not be a very safe doctrine for him to preach to his friends on the southern coasts of England.
Mr. Rose
declared himself to have been a friend to the abolition originally, and that he thought it might have taken place long before this, if it had not been for the ill-judged manner in which the rt. hon. gent. introduced it, and the pertinacity with which he persevered in it.
Mr. Wilberforce
said, that it was an odd
1029
Mr. Manning
said, that the laws of Spain prohibited the introduction of British of manufactures into its colonies; and it was only having slaves on board that protected the vessels from seizure by the Guarda Costas.— After some further conversation the motion was agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS,
Saturday, May 3.
[MINUTES.]
The house met about 10 o'clock, and proceeded soon after 11 to Westminster-hall, to attend the trial of lord viscount Melville. Their lordships returned about half past 4, when an order was made to proceed further on the trial on Monday, and a message was sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.—Lord Holland presented petitions from the prisoners confined for debt in Horsham gaol, Sussex, and the Marshalsea, Dublin, praying for relief, which were ordered to lie on the table.—Lord St. Vincent's Annuity bill and the Longitude bill passed through committees, and were reported.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, May 3.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Owen
from the East-India House, presented an account, pursuant to an order of the 16th April last, of the sums of money paid to the creditors of the Nabob of Arcot, specifying the names of the individuals who had received the same, and also the amount of the debt remaining unpaid; which were ordered to be printed.—A message from the lords informed the house that they had agreed to several private acts; and that they would proceed further on the trial of lord Melville on Monday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday May 5.
[MINUTES.]
Their lordships met at 10 o'clock, and proceeded to Westminster-hall. They returned soon after 4, when an order was made to proceed farther on the trial of
1030
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 5.
[MINUTES.]
The deputy usher of the black rod, appeared at the bar, and required the attendance of the house in the House of Lords, to hear the royal assent given by commission to certain public and private bills. The speaker accordingly attended, accompanied by several of the members, and, on his return, informed the house that he had heard the royal assent given by commission to the 3 millions Exchequer-bills bill, the Customs duty, Exports and imports, Appraisement duty, and several other public and private bills.—Sir J. Anderson obtained leave to bring in a bill for amending an act of the 43d of the king, for preventing the damaging of raw hides and skins in London, Southwark, and for 15 Miles round.— Mr. Byng brought up a bill for embellishing the area of Bloomsbury square; which was read a first time.—A new writ was ordered for the election of a member for the county of Chester, in the room of W. Egerton, Esq. deceased.—On the motion of lord Temple, the house resolved itself into a committee on the Tortola Free Port bill. In the committee, lord Temple proposed a clause, permitting the importation of sugar into this country from Rhode harbour, in the is
1031
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 6.
[MINUTES.]
Their lordships proceeded to Westminster-hall at 10 o'clock,and returned about 4. An order was made to proceed further on the trial of lord Melville on Thursday.
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Lord Sheffield
rose pursuant to notice, and said, he was fully aware he could not do justice to the cause he undertook; but he could not refrain from recommending the postponement of the second reading of the bill, until the petitioners against it could be heard; he observed, that, perhaps, petitions of greater importance, or more respectably signed, had never been presented to the house. The petition of ship-owners of the port of London, not only remonstrated against the general discretionary system of relaxing the navigation and colonial law, but it also stated the deplorable state of the shipping trade, and prayed that they might be heard in proof thereof. He observed, that there was not the slightest proof before their lordships, of the expediency or necessity of the measure; for he could not believe, that any attention would be paid to the stories that 15,000 slaves were starved in consequence of the navigation laws having been enforced. He then said, that judging from the declarations and conduct of the noble patrons of this bill, he thought himself justified in pronouncing that their great object was to prevent their lordships receiving any information, or going into any enquiry or examination; but if their lordships did not refuse to give time for the presenting petitions, and if they did not refuse to hear how the people were aggrieved, they would find it proved at their bar (and he pledged himself it should be proved), that not one person was lost in consequence of the navigation laws having been maintained; that the scarcity, and supposed loss of people (which instead of 15,000, did not amount to 1500) were the consequence of a hurricane, which destroyed the food of the negroes, and he would assert, that no operation of the navigation laws was at all in question, and drat the governors exercised
1032
1033
The Duke of Montrose
called the attention of the house to the alarm which. had been excited by the manner in which this subject had been stated by the noble lord who originally proposed it, and by the sup-
1034
The Earl of Lauderdale
thought the noble duke had rather been arguing against some speculative measure which he apprehended might at some future time, be brought forward, than against the present bill. He conceived the bill to be founded upon the soundest principles of legislation. What could more forcibly demonstrate its necessity, than the indemnity bill which parliament had passed year after year, for the purpose of indemnifying the governors of our West India islands for suspensions of the navigation act which were found to be absolutely
1035
Lord Mulgrave
professed himself by no means convinced by what had fallen from the noble lord who spoke last. With respect to the colonial system, which formed so important a topic in the present discussion, he thought the great advantage of possessing colonies, was the enjoyment of an exclusive trade with them; and which privilege in the mother country was but just and right, in return for giving them birth, and subsequently supporting them; a principle which in the former discussions of this subject, bad not been sufficiently attended to. The argument, that the provisions and articles required could be had cheaper from America, did not appear to him to be conclusive upon the point. He would admit the application of the noble earl's remark, that our seamen might be increased by the consequences of the measure; but no farther than in the
1036
The Lord Chancellor
observed, that if he understood the bill rightly, which, however, he thought very plain, none of the arguments hitherto adduced, had the least application to it. He thought he knew what he read, and if he did misread it, the language of the preamble of the bill, was sufficiently plain to warrant his assertion, and which, was accordingly quoted by his lordship; the bill, therefore, was no more than eventually to enable the said governors to exercise the same discretion legally, which before they were in the habit of doing under the pressure of circumstances; and for which, from year to year, they applied for a parliamentary indemnity; the present bill went to authorise the same discretion, when the necessity of the case appeared to them to require its exercise; that is, the bill, went to permit his majesty, by the advice of his privy council, to permit prospectively, the exercise of such a discretionary power in the governors, when they should see the necessity for using it. He deprecated the conjuring up, as some noble lords seemed to do, gloomy prospects, and prophecying the greatest national calamities, on an occasion; which merely went, in a decent and constitutional mode, to enable his majesty, with the advice of his privy council, to vest, occasionally, discretionary power in certain of his governors.
The Duke of Montroe
shortly explained; he referred to the wise policy of our ancestors, who had placed the suspension of the navigation laws beyond the power of any privy council; and again contended for the paramount importance of preserving inviolate the investigation laws of the country.
The Earl of Caernarvon
contended warmly for the propriety and superior policy of the measure in question; which, in effect, was a continuation of a practice which noble
1037
The Duke of Clarence
professed himself a warm friend to the navigation laws; but he was nevertheless friendly to the present bill, which he conceived to be necessary for the support of our West India colonies The articles which were immediately necessary for the food of the inhabitants, for their habitations, and for the cultivation of the soil, were, with the exception of beef and pork, the growth and produce of America. For this country, therefore, to attempt to supply exclusively the colonies, must be attended with an enormous expence; whilst at the same, during a period of war, and particularly when, as at present, the enemy had adopted the mode of sending out flying squadrons to different quarters, the ships necessary to protect such a trade, would be more than we could spare fron those essential services to which our navy ought to be directed. He did not attach that importance to the trade carried on in British Bottoms, for the supply of our West-India colonies, which other noble lords seemed inclined to do, as he believed the vessels employed were small, being chiefly of the class of schooners; and with respect to the seamen on board those vessels, they were most of them Blacks, whom he did not wish to see employed in tint description of service. He did not mean to extend his opinion with respect to the necessity of such a measure as the present to a period of peace, as he thought during peace this country might, without difficulty, supply the colonies; but during war he clearly agreed in its necessity.
Earl Camden
objected to the bill, and thought that the shipping interest of the country ought to have been heard by their counsel against it, in order that the subject might be fully investigated.
Lord Holland
said that he never wished to object to any class of his Majesty's subjects petitioning against any bill in that house being heard by their counsel against it; but the petitioners, in the petition presented by the noble lord (Sheffield), had, in a long and studied petition, objected generally to all suspensions of the navigation act, without stating any specific;grievance. Much had been said by noble lords of the evils which were expected to result from this measure; but he would ask, had any evil arisen from this system, which had for a long time been carried into effect by those very noble lords who now objected to it; on the contrary,
1038
Lord Hawkesbury
contended, that our navigation was a paramount consideration, and that if the necessity should arise, partial sacrifices of our commerce ought to be made, to ensure the continuance of that system of navigation from whence had arises all our maritime superiority. The present bill, he maintained, was the first relaxation of the navigation laws enacted by a legislative act; it was a measure pot called for by the necessity of the case, and might he productive of the greatest evils to the shipping interest of the country. He acknowledged there did, at times, exist a necessity for allowing the importation into our colonies of articles essential to their use, in American bottoms; but he deprecated making a prospective regulation, and acknowledging the legality of such a trade. Objectionable as the mode certainly was, he still thought it better that the responsibility should rest with the Governors of our colonies, as it had hitherto done, of allowing such a trade, when they who were upon the spot should see the necessity of such a measure, than that such a discretion should be vested in the executive government at home, who could not know when such a necessity existed in the colonies. He agreed with his noble friend (lord Holland) in much of what he had said with respect to America, but he thought that concessions on our part should rather be the result of negociation, than talked of as if decided on in the first instance.
Lord Auckland
thought it unnecessary to
1039
l
l
Lord Grenville
could not conceive the utility, upon a discussion like the present, of entering into the consideration of abstract questions, such as that propounded by the noble lord (Hawkesbury), in the form of a supposition, that at some future period the interest of our commerce and navigation might clash. He did not believe that all history or experience would furnish any instance of this nature, nor did he believe that the question was likely to arise. He had always considered that the increase of our commerce produced the increase of our navigation, and our ship-building interest. He could not, either, see the necessity of introducing any discussion as to what might be proper to be done during a period of peace; no man knew, nor could any human being foresee, at what period peace might arrive: to consider, therefore, what, or what might not be proper to be done at an indefinite period, was totally irrelevant to the present question.
1040
Lord Eldon
was inimical to this meassure, from the principles of it, as they went to legalise an act, which, by the law, as it at present stood, was unlawful; and, therefore, he considered it dangerous to leave that in the power and discretion of persons entrusted with official situations in those islands, which, at any time, might be exercised in too great a degree. It would, he continued, be a very hazardous experiment to resort to, and should only be thought of when our navy was not sufficient to supply those islands, without having recourse to the assistance of other nations.
Lord Sheffield
said, as their lordships had been detained there and in Westminster-hall so many hours, and as he had in part expressed his opinion on a former part of the discussion, he should not detain them at so late an, hour; but he must protest most strongly against the assertions which had been made, particularly in. respect to the state of the shipping trade and ship-building, and the expediency and necessity of the measure, almost every one of which, he would pledge himself to have disproved at the bar by the most respectable evidence and documents, if their lordships had not refused to hear the petitions.—The bill was then read a 2d time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday next.—Adjourned.
i
APPENDIX
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
TREATIES, &C. PRESENTED, BY HIS MAJESTY'S COMMAND, TO BOTH HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT, 28TH JANUARY, 1806.
Treaty of Concert between His Majesty and the Emperor of all the Russias, signed at St. Petersburgh, the 11th April, 1805.
IN the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.—His majesty the king of the united kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland, and his maj. the emperor of all the Russias, animated with the desire of restoring to Europe the peace, independence, and happiness, of which it is deprived, by the unbounded ambition of the French government, and the immoderate degree of influence which it is striving to arrogate to itself, have resolved to employ every means in their power to obtain this salutary end, and to prevent the renewal of similar disastrous circumstances; and they have named, in consequence, for the purpose of fixing and agreeing upon those measures which their magnanimous intentions may call for, viz. his maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland, the ld. Granville Leveson Gower, member of parliament of the said united kingdom, one of his majesty's privy councillors, and his ambassador extraordinary and plenipotentiary to his maj. the emperor of all the Russias; and his maj. the emperor of all the Russias, the Sieur Adam Prince of Czartoryski, one of his privy councillors, member of the council of state, senator, adjunct minister for foreign affairs, member of the general direction of schools, curator of the imperial university of Wilna and of its district, lieut. of the grand prior of the sovereign order of St. John of Jerusalem, of the Russian
ii
a.
b.
iii
c.
d.
e.
iv
No. 1. (A)—
First separate Article of the Treaty of Concert between His Majesty and the Emperor of Russia, signed at St. Petersburgh, llth April (30th March)
His maj. the emperor of all the Russias, having made known to his Brit maj. his. arrangements with their majesties the emperor of Germany and the king of Sweden, his Brit, maj. engages to fulfil his stipulations of the present treaty of concert towards each of those powers, if, in the space of four months, reckoning from the day of the signature of the present instrument, both those powers, or one of them, shall have caused their forces to act against France, by virtue of the engagements they
v
No. 1. (B)—
Fourth separate Article of the Treaty of Concert between His Majesty and the Emperor of Russia, signed at St. Petersburgh, 11th April (20th March)
The collecting of 500,000 effective men, mentioned in art. 1. of the treaty of concert signed this day, not being so easy as it is desirable, their majesties have agreed that it should be carried into execution as soon as it should be possible to oppose to France an active force of 400,000 men, composed in the following manner; Austria will supply 250,000 men, Russia not less than 115,000 men, independently of the levies made by her in Albany, in Greece, &c.; and the remainder of the 400,000 will be made up by the troops of Naples, Hanover, Sardinia, and others.—This separate art. shall have the same force and validity, as if it were inserted, word for word, in the treaty of concert signed this day, and shall be ratified at the Same time.—In witness whereof, we the undersigned, by virtue of our full powers, have signed the present separate art and have affixed thereto the seals of our arms.—Done at St. Petersburgh, this 11th of April (30th March) 1805.—Signed G. L. GOWER. ADAM PRINCE CZARTORYSKI. NICOLAS DE NOVOSSILZOFF.
No. 1. (C)—
Fifth separate Article of the Treaty of Concert between His Majesty and the Emperor of Russia, signed at St. Petersburgh, 11th April (March 30)
His maj. the emperor of all the Russias, engages also to march as soon as possible, an army, of not less than 60,000 men to the frontiers of Austria, and also another of not less than 80,000 men to the Prussian frontiers, to be ready to co-operate with the said courts, in the proportion established by the treaty of concert signed this day, and to support them respectively
vi
première mise en campagne.
première mise en campagne,
No. 1. (D)—
Sixth separate Article of the Treaty of Concert between His Majesty and the Emperor of Russia, signed at St. Petersburgh, 11th April (30th March)
His maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland, and his maj. the emperor of all the Russias, being disposed to form an energetic concert, with the sole view of insuring to Europe a lasting and solid peace, founded upon the principles of justice, equity, and the law of nations, by which they are constantly guided, are awarė of the necessity of a mutual understanding, at this time, upon several principles, which they will evince, in pursuance of a previous concert as soon as the events of the war may render it necessary.—These principles are, in no degree, to controul the public opinion in France, or in any other countries,
vii
No. 1. (E)—
Eighth separate Article.
It being possible that the bias which the French govt. tries to give to the councils of the different states of Europe, may determine one or other of those states to throw obstacles in the way of the attainment. of the salutary effects which are the objects of the present concert, and even to have recourse to hostile measures against one of the high contracting parties, in spite of their endeavours to establish an equitable and permanent order of things in Europe, his Brit. maj. and his maj. the emperor of all the Russias, agree to make common cause against every power, which, by the employment of its forces, or by too intimate an union with France, may pretend to raise essential obstacles to the developement of those measures which the high contracting parties may have to take, in order to attain the object proposed by the present concert. This separate art. shall have the same force and validity, as if it were inserted, word for word, in the treaty of concert signed this day, and shall be ratified at the same time.—In
viii
No. 1. (F)—
Eleventh separate Article.
The high contracting parties, acknowledging the necessity of supporting the propositions of peace, which it is their intention to make to Buonaparte by energetic demonstrations, have resolved to invite his imperial and royal apostolic maj. to put his armies in a state of readiness for action, without delay, by completing their numbers, and by concentrating them in the neighbourhood of the borders of France. His Brit. maj. considering the extraordinary expences which this measure will render necessary, promises and engages to furnish to his imperial and royal maj. immediately after his accession to the present concert, the sum of one million of pounds sterling, for
première mise en campagne,
No. 1. (G)—
Separate and Secret Article.
Although the high contracting parties have agreed by the first separate article of the treaty of concert, established this day between them, that Austria and Sweden shall not partake of the advantages of the said concert, but in the event of their bringing their forces into action against France, 4 months after its signature, by virtue of their engagements with his maj. the emperor of all the Russias; yet his Brit. maj. considering the advantage to the future security of Europe, which results from an union similar to that formed by his maj. the emperor of all the Russias, with their
ix
No. 1. (H)—
Additional Article.
His maj. the emperor of all the Russias, having, in pursuance of his sincere desire to insure success to the enterprise, concerted against France, determined, in case the circumstances should require it, to augment the forces which he has promised to bring into action, to an hundred and eighty thousand men, his maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland, promises, and engages to pay, in that case, to his imperial maj. of all the Russias, for the troops which he may thus add to the 115,000 already agreed upon, a subsidy and a
première mise en campagne,
NO. 1.(I)—
Additional Article of the Treaty
of Concert, signed at St. Petersburgh, the 11th April,
His maj. the emperor of all the Russias, purposing to concert measures with the court of Vienna, by which considerable Russian armies may be approximated to the frontiers of France, by crossing the Austrian and Prussian territories, while it is declared that the object of these movements is to obtain securities for the continent, promises and engages to his Brit. maj. in his own name, and in that of his allies, that, should even circumstances require, that at the moment when the Russian troops began their march, they should declare that this movement was in no way connected with an existing concert with his Brit. maj. but that the powers of the continent reclaim the fulfilment by France of her immediate engagements with them, yet as soon as the war shall have broken out, they will no longer pursue a particular object, but that which has been determined by the concert of the 30th March (11th April), with all the clauses incorporated with it.—In return for this assurance, his Brit. maj. promises and engages, in the first place, to fulfil towards the emperor of all the Russias the stipulations of the above-mentioned concert, in all their parts, as soon as the war shall have broken out between Russia and France, and especially to furnish for the Russian troops the subsidies agreed upon, payable from the day o
première mise en campagne;
première mise en campagne
xi
No. II. (A)—
Preliminary Declaration of Count Stadion, to Lord Granville Leveson Gower, dated at St. Petersburgh, 28th July (9th Aug.)
The undersigned ambassador extra. and plenipotentiary of his imperial and royal apostolic maj. by order of his august sovereign, after having invited his exc. the ambassador of G. Britain, to join with him in the preliminary declarations which he has exchanged this day, with his exc. the prince of Czartoryski, has, moreover, declared as follows:—His imperial and royal apostolic maj. in acceding to the treaty concluded on the 30th March (11th April) 1805, and subsequently ratified by the courts of London and St. Petersburgh, under the reservations, modifications, and demands, as announced in the above-mentioned preliminary declarations, limits the pecuniary succours, which he expects from his maj. the king of G. Britain, for the current year, 1805, to three millions sterling; of which sum one million and a half is to be considered as
première mise en campagne;
première mise en campagne,
xii
No. II. (B.)—
Declaration of Count Stadion to Prince Czartoryski, dated Petersburgh, 28th July (9th August)
The undersigned ambassador extr. and plenip. of his imperial and royal apostolic maj., being especially authorised by the emperor, his august master, declares, in answer to the declaration which has been delivered to him by his exc. the prince Czartoryski, of this day's date as follows: 1. His imperial and royal maj. in accepting the different articles announced in this declaration, accedes to the concert con-
xiii
xiv
No. II. (C)—
Copy of the Declaration delivered by Prince Czartoryski to the Ambassador Count de Stadion, on the 28th July (9th Aug.) 1805.
The undersigned minister for foreign affairs, being authorised to that effect by his maj. the emperor of all the Russias, declares to his exc. the ambassador count de Stadion, as follows: 1. The several observations and proposals announced by the court of Vienna, in the preliminary declaration delivered by the vice-chancellor of the court and state, count de Cobentzel, to the ambassador count de Razoumofsky, on the 7th of July, are assumed by his maj. the emperor of all the Russias, to serve as a basis for the concert of measures between the court of Russia, and those of Vienna and of London. In like manner, the modifications proposed therein by his imperial and royal maj. for the regulation of the affairs of the continent, are also adopted, in case of there being reason to hope that war may be avoided by means of negociation.—2. His majesty the emperor of all the Russias confirms the military arrangements detailed in the protocol of conferences held between the general baron de Wintzingerode on one side, and the prince de Schwarzenberg and general Mack on the other, and which was signed the 16th of July. And his imperial maj. engages strictly to fulfil the whole of the measures therein arranged.—3. His majesty the emperor of all the Russias engages, moreover, to endeavour to prevail on his Brit. maj. to consent to the modifications and demands contained in the paper intitled, "Remarks on some particular objects of the convention signed between the courts of Petersburgh and London, the 30th March (11th April) of this year."—4. His maj. the emperor of all the Russias promises to use his best endeavours to engage his Brit. maj. to grant the total amount of the subsidiary demands made by the court of Vienna; with this condition, nevertheless, that in case his imperial maj. notwithstanding all his exertions, should fail in the attempt, this circumstance shall occasion no essential change in the measures concerted between Russia and Austria.—5. His maj. the emperor of all the Russias engages, as soon as the whole or a part of the Russian troops shall have passed their frontiers, not
xv
No. II. (D)—
Declaration of Prince Czartoryski to Lord G. L. Gower, dated St. Petersburgh, 28th July (9th Aug.)
The undersigned, joint minister for foreign affairs, being authorised to that effect by his majesty the emperor of all the Russias, declares to his exc. the ambassador, Lord G. L. Gower, as follows:—1. The undersigned has this day exchanged with his exc. the ambassador of Austria, the declarations, of which copies are hereto annexed.—2. His maj. the emperor of all the Russias, expects that the ambassador of England will agree, in the name of his court, without reserve, to their contents; and that if he do not consider himself sufficiently authorised thereto, he will express, in a formal declaration, the several points to which he can immediately assent.—3. The undersigned is authorised to exchange this declaration against that which shall be delivered to him by his exc. lord G. L. Gower.—The present declaration, and that delivered in return by the ambassador of England, which are to be in the place and to have the validity of the most solemn act, shall
xvi
No. II. (E)—
Declaration signed by his Majesty's Ambassador at St. Petersburgh, and delivered to Prince Czartoryski and to Count de Stadion, 9th Aug.
The undersigned ambassador extr. and plenip. of his Brit. maj. having been invited by his exc. the prince Czartoryski, joint minister for foreign affairs, and the count de Stadion, ambassador extr. and plenip. of his imperial, royal, and apostolic maj. to accede to the declarations reciprocally exchanged between the two imperial courts on this day, the 9th of August, in virtue of his full powers, declares as follows:—The several observations and proposals expressed by the court of Vienna, in the preliminary declaration delivered by the vice-chancellor of the court and state, the count de Cobentzel, to the ambassador count Razoumoufsky, on the 7th of July, and in the
mémoire raisonné
première mise en campagne,
xvii
première mise en campagne,
première mise en campagne,
xviii
No. III.—
Preliminary and Secret Convention between his Maj. and the King of Sweden, signed at Stockholm, 3d Dec.
His maj. the king of the united kingdom of Gt. Brit. and Ireland, and his maj. the king of Sweden, being animated with a mutual desire to strengthen and draw closer the tieś of friendship and harmony, which so happily exist between the two courts, having thought proper, with this view, to regulate, by a preliminary and secret convention, certain points of their mutual interests, relative to the present situation of affairs; their said majesties have named for that purpose, his maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Brit. and Ireland, the sieur Henry Pierrepont his envoy extr. and minister plenip., and his maj. the king of Sweden, the sieur Frederick, d'Ehrenheim, president of his chancery, and commander of his order of the polar star, who, after having reciprocally communicated their full powers, have agreed upon the following articles:—Art. I. His Brit. maj. in order to enable his Swedish maj. more effectually to provide for the defence of Stralsund, against any attack whatever on the part of the French, engages to pay, once for all, the sum of 60,000
l.
xix
entrepót
ad valorem;
No. IV .—
Convention between his Maj. and the King of Sweden, signed at Helsingborg the 31st Aug
His maj. the king of the united kingdom G. Brit. and Ireland, and his maj. the king of Sweden, animated with equal desire to contribute, by all the means which Providence has placed at their disposal, to put an end to the misfortunes which disturb the peace of Europe, and particularly convinced of the urgency of securing the fortified places in the north of Germany against all hostile enterprise, have agreed to enter into stipulations for that purpose, by a separate convention, in addition to the preliminary and secret one concluded between them on the 3d of Dec. last; for which
xx
l.
l.
xxi
No. IV. (A)—
Act of Guarantee by the Emperor of Russia, of the Convention signed at Helsingborg, on the 3d of Dec.
A convention having been concluded this day, by the intervention of his maj. the emperor of all the Russias, between his maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Brit. and Ireland, and his maj. the king of Sweden, to provide for the reinforcement of the garrison of Stralsund, in pursuance of the secret and preliminary convention of the 3d of Dec. 1804; the two high contracting parties have amicably requested his imperial maj. to consent to guarantee the execution of so desirable an object. His maj. the emperor of all the Russias has accordingly willingly agreed to a measure which tends solely to so salutary an end; and having thereunto furnished us with his full powers, we the undersigned envoy extra. and minister plenip. of his imperial majesty, declare and assure by this
xxii
No. IV. (B)—
Acceptance by his maj. of the Russian Guarantee to the Treaty of Helsinborg, of 31 St Aug.
A convention having been concluded this day, by the intervention of his maj. the emperor of all the Russias, between his maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Brit. and Ireland, and his maj. the king of Sweden, to provide for the reinforcement of the garrison of Stralsund, in pursuance of the secret and preliminary convention of the 3d of Dec. 1804; and his said imperial maj. having also granted, at the request of the high contracting parties a guarantee to all the stipulations contained in the said convention, the undersigned, envoy extra. and minister plenip. of his maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Brit. and Ireland, receives with acknowledgement the act of guarantee which has been delivered to him this day, in the name of his imperial maj. of all the Russias, by his envoy extra. and minister plenip., and declares, at the same time, that his Brit. maj. will cause to be forwarded and delivered, the ratification of this act of acceptation.—In faith of which, the undersigned minister plenip. has signed this present act, and has caused the seal of his arms to be thereto affixed, and has exchanged it against the act of guarantee above mentioned; as shall also be exchanged, the ratifications of the present act against the ratifications of the said act of guarantee within the space of six weeks, or sooner if possible. Done at Helsinborg,
xxiii
NO. IV. (C)—
First Separate Article of the Convention of Helsinborg, signed 31st Aug.
His maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Brit. and Ireland, and his maj. the king of Sweden, have agreed by the present separate and additional article, that the subsidies fixed by the second and third articles of the convention signed this day, shall continue to be paid by G. Brit. during the continuance of the war between that power and France, conjointly with Russia, or as long as the state of affairs and the operations of the allies, shall require that the fortress of Stralsund be kept in a respectable state of defence, unless the two high contracting parties shall mutually consent to the cessation of such subsidies. In both cases, if the term of their payment should happen when the sea is innavigable. His Brit. maj. engages, nevertheless, to continue their payment, according to the same rate theretofore, till the day of the return of the Swedish troops into Pomerania, which shall take place by the earliest opportunity.—This separate article shall have the same force and validity as if it were inserted, word for word, in the convention signed this day, and shall be ratified at the same time.—In faith of which, we the undersigned, by virtue of our full powers, have signed the present separate art., and have caused the seal of our arms to be affixed thereto.—Done at Helsingborg, the 31st day of Aug. 1805.—Signed, HENRY PIERREPONT. T. E. BARON DE TOLL.
No IV. (D)—
Second Separate Article of the Convention of Helsingborg, signed the 31st of Aug.
The Hanoverian troops, which (in pursuance of the stipulations of the second and third art. of the secret and preliminary convention of the 3d Dec. 1804, renewed by the seventh art. of the present convention) may be hereafter assembled in Swedish Pomerania, shall continue, as long as they remain in that province, under the supreme orders of the commander-in-chief of the united forces, without any violation of the rights established in the three above-mentioned articles.—This separate art. shall have the same force and validity, as if it were inserted, word for word, in the convention signed this day, and shall be ratified at the same time.—In faith of which, we the undersigned, by virtue of our full powers, have signed the present
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No. V.—
Treaty between His Majesty and the King of Sweden, signed at Beckascog, 3d of Oct.
In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity! His maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland, and his maj. the king of Sweden, in pursuance of the ties of friendship and good understanding by which they are at present so happily united, desirous of establishing a more direct communication upon every thing which relates to the present war, which the French govt. has excited against several powers, by measures equally unjust and offensive, and by conducting itself upon principles incompatible with the security and tranquillity of every independent state; their said majesties have judged proper to concert together upon the means of opposing a sufficient barrier to the misfortunes which menace the whole of Europe. In consequence, they have chosen and named for their plenipotentiaries, namely, his maj. the king of the united kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland, the hon. Henry Pierrepont, his envoy extra. and minister plenip. to his Swedish maj.; and his maj. the king of Sweden, the Sieur Christopher Baron de Toll, a lord of the kingdom of Sweden, gov. gen. of the duchy of Scania, gen. of cavalry in his armies, chief of the regiment of carbineers of Scania, knight and commander of his orders, and knight of all the Russian orders; who after having communicated their respective full powers, have agreed upon the following articles:—ART. 1. There shall be a perfect understanding, friendship, and alliance between his Brit. maj. and his maj. the king of Sweden.—ART. 2. The convention concluded between their said majesties on the 31st Aug. last, is hereby renewed, and shall remain in full force and validity, independent of the new stipulations contained in the present treaty.—ART. 3. His maj. the king of Sweden, desirous of co-operating with effect towards the success of the general plan, engages to furnish a corps of troops, destined to act against the common enemy, in concert with the allies, and especially with the troops of his imperial maj. of all the Russias, which shall be landed in Pomerania. The number of Swedish troops employed for this purpose, shall be fixed,
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SUPPLEMENTARY PAPERS RELATIVE TO THE CONTINENTAL WAR, PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY'S COMMAND TO BOTH HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT, 3D AND 4TH FEB. 1806.
No. I.—
Copy of a Dispatch from Sir Arthur Paget to Lord Mulgrave, (No. 47.) dated Vienna, June 5
My lord; when I was with count Cobentzl yesterday morning, I found him considerably agitated on account of the intelligence he had received from Genoa. He began by telling me that he was extremely anxious for my arrival here, in order to communicate to me some information which had been received by him the preceding evening by a courier. He then sent for the dispatches he had re-received from the imperial minister at Genoa, and gave them to me to read; the substance of them is contained in my preceding number.—The originals had been sent in the night to the emperor at Prague, and the vice-chancellor was just dispatching an estafette with the intelligence to St. petersburgh.—I wrote a few lines in his room by this opportunity, to apprize his majesty's ambassador at that court of these circumstances. Count Cobentzl asked me if I meant to transmit the account by a messenger, and imdeed seemed rather desirous that I should; but, upon calculation, it appeared certain that that govt. will have received it sooner through France. This, however, led me to ask the vice-chancellor what he conjectured to be the sentiments of the govt. upon this important event; to this question he replied, that I must be aware that it had made a very deep and serious impression upon his imperial maj.'s ministers; but that, in the emperor's absence, he could not take upon himself entirely to say more; that he conceived, that the first order he should receive from his imperial maj. would be to recall the whole mission from Genoa.—The interview ended here, after a considerable time had elapsed in the perusal of the different papers. I have the honour to be, &c. (Signed) ARTHUR PAGET.
Copy of a Dispatch (No. 52.) from Sir Arthur Paget to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 22d June
My lord; it is, I believe, felt here, that the aunexation of Genoa and Placentia are acts which nothing but an appeal to arms can afford a proper satisfaction for; accordingly, I do not find that the emperor has broken silence upon those subjects.—It has
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Copy of a Dispatch from Sir Arthur Paget to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 6th July
My lord; the French ambassador demanded at the beginning of this week an interview with the vice-chancellor, who, being himself too unwell to accept it, deputed the under-secretary of state to receive him.—The purport of the communication made by M. de Rochefoucault was to inform this court, that the different encampments which had lately taken place in Italy, had been formed for the sole purpose of exercising the troops, and that, having been inspected by Bonaparte, they had broken up, and the troops had returned into their respective quarters; that Bonaparte could not be ignorant of, or insensible to, the great military preparations which have of late been making in this country; that he trusted, however, that the emperor, guided by a mutual desire to remain upon terms of friendship and amity with France, would give the same unequivocal proofs of it.—Two or three days after this communication, the vice-chancellor saw the French ambassador, and gave him the same sort of answer he had already done on nearly a similar occasion. He informed him, that the military preparations alluded to, had been determined upon in consequence of the French army in Italy having been considerably augmented; that precaution therefore had rendered them necessary; that it was, and always should be the emperor's firm resolution, to adopt such a system as the safety of his dominions appeared to require; that the preparations in question were within those dominions, whereas Bonaparte had collected his troops in a country which did not belong to him.—The above is the substance of what has passed upon this occasion between the vice-chancellor and the French ambassador, as related to me by the former. (Signed) ARTHUR PAGET.
Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget to
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Lord Mulgrave, dated 3d Aug.
My lord; orders were issued on Monday or Tuesday last, for assembling an army of 40,000 men at Budweis, in Bohemia.—In Italy and the Tyrol there may be from 120,000 to 150,000 men.—But of all the preparations which have been made, none have created so much sensation among the public here, nor in fact bear so much the aspect of a serious intention to act, as this last measure.—The first movement of this corps would naturally be to take a position upon the Inn. Two military councils have lately been held at Luxembourg, at which the emperor presided. The archdukes Charles and John, the. generals Latour, Mack, and Charles Schwartzenburgh, assisted. The archduke John has received orders to hold himself in readiness to join the army in Italy, at the end of this month.—According to the latest accounts received by this government, there do not appear to be any extraordinary troubles in Italy; and no later than yesterday count Cobentzl told me, that every thing was perfectly quiet upon the Rhine.—In Swisserland the imperial minister baron Crumpipen has, I am informed by the vice-chancellor, received instructions to insinuate that the emperor considers himself as guarantee of the constitution of that country. (Signed) ARTHUR PAGET.
Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 29th Aug.
My lord; I have at length been put in possession, by the vice-chancellor, of the whole of the negociation which has been carrying on between the two imperial courts, since Nov. 1804. I received also, 3 or 4 days ago, from lord G. L. Gower, by an Austrian messenger, copies of the declarations exchanged between him and count Stadion, on the 9th inst. In the one presented by his lordship, it appears that his imperial maj. has consented to adopt the modifications proposed by the emperor of Russia to the arrangements for the general pacification of the continent. The remaining point, therefore, to be settled between the two courts, is that of subsidies. And in the first place, I have to acquaint your lordship, that at an interview I had with count Cobentzl immediately after the receipt of lord G. L. Gower's letter, I desired to know whether the emperor would ratify count Stadion's declaration, and consent to the conditions under which our offer of subsidy
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Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, Aug. 29th,
My lord; I have the honour to inclose a Règlement which was published yesterday, and by which the Austrian army is declared to be upon the war-establishment.—In order to avoid your lordship an immediate contest with the probably bad German in which this Règlement is written, I have caused a translation to be made of the essential points contained in it, which I herewith enclose—The opening of it, in fact, the most important of the whole.—I happened to be in count Cobentzl's cabinet yesterday morning reading some papers, when the French ambassador arrived in the adjoining audience with this Règ1ement in his hand. The interview, though very short, was, I fancy, rather a boisterous one.—M. de la Rochefoucault, alluding to the Règlement, began by saying, as count Cobentzl informed me immediately afterwards, "Vous voulez done la guerre et bien vous l'aurez;" the conversation did not in other respects appear to be very novel. The vice-chancellor contended that the emperor's views in arming were to maintain peace, and that at all events he armed in his own country, whereas Bonaparte's armaments were made in a country which did not belong to him.—It is unnecessary that I should say more upon this subject, as your lordship will have already received, through count Starhembergh, the most recent communicatiońs which have taken place between the court of Vienna and the French govt. (Signed) ARTHUR PAGET.
Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, K. B. to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 30th. Aug.
My lord; a Russian courier arrived here yesterday with an account that the first body of the Russian troops under gen. Koutous of were to enter upon the Austrian territory on the 26th instant. I have the honour to be, &c. ARTHUR PAGET.
Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, K. B. to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 30th Aug.
My lord; it was not until this afternoon that I got a sight of the answer made by the French government to the declaration of the court of Vienna. This answer, as well as a letter from M. de Talleyrand to the vice-chancellor, written about two days after, and a second note presented to count Philip Cobentzl about the same time, all which I have read, will be sent in the
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Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, K. B. to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 5th Sept.
My lord; prince Charles Schwartzemberg set out the night before last for Munich. He is ordered to notify to the elec-
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Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, K. B. to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 5th Sept.
My lord; orders have been transmitted within these three or four days to the Russian ambassador, for the embarkation of the Russian troops at Corfu. Count Razamofsky is not informed of the place where this force will disembark; this is to be decided according to circumstances by the commander; but it appears probable that they will proceed at once to Naples. It is presumed that Sir James Craig has been instructed to co-operate with the Russian general for the expulsion of the French from that kingdom, should affairs take that turn. Count Cobentzl has led me to expect that a communication will very soon be made to me, relative to the co-operation of the forces under Sir James Craig.
Extract of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 11th Sept.
I am happy to inform your lordship, that the emperor's ratification of the act of accession delivered on the 9th ult, by count Stadion to his majesty's ambassador at St. Petersburgh, was sent off by a messenger the day before yesterday. The archduke Charles will leave Vienna on Monday next; he will take up his first head quarters at Padua, at which place he will arrive on the fifth day. The archduke John left Vienna for the Tyrol the night before last.
Extract of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 14th Sept.
I am to see count Cobentzl this evening. It is possible that the nature of the communication I expect to receive, will relate to the Bavarian business, and may induce me to send a messenger to England. Lest it should be otherwise, I will now inform your lordship, that the elector of Bavaria, after having in the most solemn manner bound himself to join his troops to those of Austria, precipitately left Munich, having given orders for the whole of his army to follow him into Franconia. The French minister had also set out for Wurtzburgh. I cannot as yet inform your lordship of the measures which this conduct of the elector may lead the court of Vienna to adopt towards Bavaria. I believe that the last accounts at present say the
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Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, Sept. 15th 1805. (No. 88.)
My lord; I have the honour to inclose a duplicate of my dispatch of yesterday. I have now to inform your lordship that the French ambassador yesterday demanded his passports, which he was instructed to do as soon as he received information of the Austrians having entered into Bavaria. Instructions have been sent to the Austrian minister at Munich to follow the elector of Bavaria to Wurzburg, and to employ promises, threats, and every means of bringing him back to his engagements. This had already been done by prince Schwartzenberg. Mr. Buol will offer more. We shall see whether Mr. de Mongelas will be more tractable with him.—The Bavarian forces do not, as count Cobentzl mentioned to me last night, amount to more than 10 or 12,000 men. The elector of Bavaria, in his first interview with the prince, promised every thing that was demanded; he confirmed his promise in a few lines he wrote him; he sent gen. Nogarolla here with a letter to the emperor, which commences nearly in these words:—"I have ordered my minister to sign a treaty with prince Schwartzenberg, by which I join my troops to those of your majesty."—When the above officer arrived with this letter, the emperor had already heard of the elector of Bavaria's departure. The Russians are to be at Brünn on the 20th. Couriers have been sent off to request that they may advance by forced marches. Gen. Meerfeldt is to be attached to these corps.—This govt. has, within these few days, had accounts of the whole of the French army having quitted the coast, and being in full march for Strasburg and Mayence.—It is said that Bonaparte will command in Germany with marshal Ney under him. It is reported, that Joseph Bonaparte will command in Italy, having Massena attached to him. I have the honour to be, &c. A. PAGET.
Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 18th Sept.
My lord; the emperor sets out for the army to-morrow. His imperial majesty, after having conferred with gen. Mack upon the different objects for which he undertakes this journey, will, I understand, return to Vienna for the transaction of busi-
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Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 21st Sept.
My lord; I have little to trouble your lordship with by this post. The reports from gen. Mack are of the most satisfactory nature; and the apprehensions which were at one time entertained from the immense force which Bonaparte is bringing into Germany, gradually d
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Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 25th Sept.
My lord; accounts were rather unexpectedly received here yesterday, which announce the arrival of the emperor of Russia at Brecz. Prince Schwartzenberg will set out from Vienna this evening, to attend upon his imperial majesty during his stay in that country. The Russian troops are advancing in carriages. (Signed) A. PAGET.
Extract of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 2 Oct.
My lord; it has been several times reported here, that the French had crossed the Rhine; the account which arrived here yesterday of that event, appears to be credited by this govt. Should it be true, or whenever it may happen, gen. Mack, as count Cobentzl assured me last night, has orders to advance and give them battle. It has been found necessary to reinforce the army in Germany by drawing 30 battalions from Italy; a circumstance which appears to have created some displeasure in the archduke Charles. The emperor's departure to take the command of the army, is fixed for the 22d of this month. The head of the first Russian column will have crossed the Danube at Krems, on the 5th (17th) inst. It is calculated that the whole corps under gen. Kutusow will have joined the Austrians by the 22d inst. I have the honour to be, &c. A. PAGET.
Copy of a Dispatch from Sir A. Paget, K. B. to Lord Mulgrave, dated Vienna, 24th Oct.
My lord; if the first operations of the campaign have been attended with loss and disadvantage, which, from the present aspect of affairs; it is, I am grieved to say, not too much to presume, we may, among other causes, attribute our ill successes to the following:—The first and principal fault which has been committed, was to have taken the field with too small a force; since the very first appearance of a rupture with France, it has been proved almost to demonstration, that the theatre of the war would be in Germany. Bonaparte himself publicly announced it in the first note presented by the charge-d' affaires at
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No. II.—
Extract from a Dispatch of Lord G. L. Gower to Lord Mulgrave, dated St. Petersbargh, 29th June
My lord; the annexation of the Ligurian republic to the French empire, executed at the very moment when a Russian plenipotentiary was expected in France, charged with propositions of which the professed, object had been the general arrangements of the affairs of Europe, is considered as so gross an insult to both sovereigns, whose sentiments that plenipotentiary was empowered to declare, that his imperial majesty has judged, under these circumstances, he could not, consistently with what is due to his own dignity or to that of his august ally, permit M. Novossilzoff to proceed to fulfil the object of his mission. I have the honour to be, &c. G. L. GOWER.
Extract of a Dispatch from Lord G. L. Gower to Lord Mulgrave, dated St. Petersburh, 22d, July
My lord; I was on the point of dispatching yesterday the messenger to England; when I received an invitation from prince Czartoryski to a conference, in which he read to me some very important dispatches he had just received from count Razumouskoi and gen. Winzingerode. By these it appears that the emperor of Germany is at last awakened to a sense of his true dignity, and the real interests of his empire; and that, foreseeing the inevitability of war, he is determined not to leave to Bonaparte the choice of the moment to commence hostilities.
Extract of a Dispatch from Lord G. L. Gower to Lord Mulgrave, dated St. Petersburgh, 3d Sept.
My lord; the last dispatches from the Russian ambassador at Vienna, speak in strong terms of the warlike temper of that cabinet; certain communications had been made from Paris, which indicated a yielding disposition on the part of Bonaparte; but to these indications count Cobentzl seems to attach no credit, and count Razumofskoi represents that the present character of the Austrian ministry is a direct contrast to its former timidity and indecision, and that a firm conviction seems now to prevail at Vienna, that it is through war alone that any security can be obtained against the ambition and power of France. There is just ground for expecting that his imperial and royal majesty being persuaded that war is inevitable, may be induced
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No. III. (A.)—(Translation.)
Plan of Operations proposed by the Court of Vienna.
France, upon the new organization of her army, has on foot,
112
regiments of the line
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404,828
men.
30
regiments of light infantry
107,540
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85
cavairy
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64,226
16
artillery
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21,430
598,024
This number, with the addition of the different corps in Corsica and the islands, Of 21 regiments of Dutch soldiers, 11 Swiss regiments, 18 auxiliary troops from Italy, and the imperial guard which consists of 15,000 men, makes a total of 651,964, the whole military force now on foot in France. These troops are for the greater part already on the war-establishment. Any grand descent from England, upon the coast of France, with the probability of decided success, is scarcely to be expected. France may therefore venture to draw almost all her troops from her interior, and from her coasts. Besides, a well-arranged national guard, in perfect discipline, would enable her to spare her troops of the line even from where they had been employed in preserving domestic order and security. It follows, that France might employ 500,000 men in Italy, Switzerland, and Germany.—In opposition to that force, the 250,000 Austrians and 115,000 Russians, stipulated in the last treaty, compose a total force, which is, in comparison, so much the less to be depended upon, because very little effective assistance is to be expected from the Swedes and the English. The following are the necessary conclusions from the statement—1st; Considering this estimate, and the advantages which France enjoys in its geographical situation, whether for defence or for aggression, the maintenance of peace, till a more favourable conjuncture shall arise, seems to be infinitely desirable.—2d; If, however, war should become inevitable, not only to ensure its success, but to avoid likewise evils more alarming than those of the present moment; it would become indispensably necessary, that the allied courts should use their most vigorous efforts to oppose those of the enemy, and bring into efficiency means at least equal to theirs, if not superior.—The military arrangements, the financial, and the general policy of the allies, must concur in putting forth those energies, by which alone we can hope to give success to our efforts.—1st, Military arrangements. This co-operation in these three branches could be of very little effect if the Austrian armies should not come into the field more than 300,000 strong. The first of the papers subjoined. shews, what would be the deficiencies to be supplied in the imperial and royal army in recruiting,
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No. III. (B)—
Extracts from a paper intitled, "Remarks on the Plan of Operations proposed by Austria."
The plan which the cabinet of Vienna has transmitted to that of St. Petersburgh presents a new proof of the intimate confidence mutually subsisting between the two imperial courts; and if the war now undertaken to check and restrain the ambition of Bonaparte shall terminate happily, its success must be owing to the continuation of that confidence. Upon this principle we shall, without dissembling any difficulty, offer our remarks upon the plan, article by article, in order to obviate as much as possible the difficulties apprehended by the Austrian cabinet.—The plan begins with stating as a fact, "that the real forces of "the French amount, upon the new organization, to 598,084 men, and with the addition of those which are at the disposal of the French govt., to 651,964 men." "The cabinet of St. Petersburgh has reason to believe, that the French army is far from being complete on its new organization, in consequence of the difficulty which the French govt. has to surmount, and notwithstanding the violent means it is obliged to use, to muster the fresh conscripts, who strive, in all possible ways, to avoid the service.—Besides, though the English should be unable to effect any disembarkation on the French coast, sufficient for the prosecution of regular war within France, they may, nevertheless, occupy a considerable number of the French troops; by menacing a descent on all the accessible points; on the lower Elbe, on the Weser, on the coasts of Holland, Flanders, France, and Italy. The French, in short, must be naturally obliged to divide their strength, and distribute their forces for the defence of every assailable point of their possessions.—It follows that the French can never be in a condition to oppose so many as 500,000 men to the operations of the powers of the coalition, and that a deduction of perhaps one third of their forces may be confidently reckoned upon. The disproportion of 250,000 Austrians and 115,000 Russians to the French troops which can be brought to act against them, will therefore be less considerable than it has been supposed.—From the unfavourable calculation of the relative forces of France and the allies, which is presented in the plan of the court of Vienna, the following
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No. III. (C.)—Translation.
Extract of the Protocol of Conferences between the Austrian Generals and the Aid-de-Camp General Baron de Wintzingerode.
Observations of the Austrian generals.
Requests information on the number of troops composing the first Russian army destined to enter by Brody.
Requests information respecting the artillery of the line and reserve, as well as the ammunition with which it will be supplied.
Information respecting relays for the conveyance of artillery and provisions, also respecting officers and baggage horses.
Daily supply of rations of bread and fodder.
Amount of relays required for the present year.
The day fixed for the army quitting its present quarters, what will be the number and strength of each column, on its entering Gallicia during the march towards the place of their destination, what rout and halting days have been determined on? the day fixed for their reaching the farther frontier of Austria, towards Bavaria, viz. the banks of the Inn.
N. B. M. de Wintzingerode having delay-
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a respectable position. And we ought to be ready to begin, the moment the negociation terminates. The reasonings suggested upon the probable progress of the military operations, appear to proceed upon very salutary and judicious views. It is agreed, that any operations against the frontier of France, along the Rhine, whether below or above Mentz, would be attended with great difficulty. It is rather on the Italian line that the first success is to be expected. It is consequently towards that quarter that the principal efforts ought to be directed. All this part of the plan must be allowed to be perfectly well arranged.
Observations of General Baron de Wintzingerode.
The gen. Wintzingerode is confident that his imp. maj. will resolve that the total of this first army shall amount to 54,916 men and 7,920 horses, therein being comprised the infantry, cavalry, and artillery, as well as the regiments of Chasseurs and Cossacks: and every measure has been taken to complete the regiments destined for this service.
The total of the artillery will be:
Three pounders 8; six pounders 136; twelve pounders 32; howitzers 24; total 200. With respect to ammunition, he was assured that each field piece would be furnished with 200 cartridges, and each fire-lock with 120.
The train of artillery may be estimated generally for the first year at 3000 horses, and each regiment would be furnished with 255 horses for the conveyance of provisions.
Generally speaking, it might be estimated at 66,000 rations of bread, and 19,480 rations for horses.
As the army will have at the outset a sufficient supply of this nature, very small relays will be necessary, and no arbitrary requisitions will be permitted.
The day on which the troops were to begin their march, was fixed for the 16th of August; on which day the first column will reach Brody. The number of the columns was fixed at six; each of about 9 or 10,000 men; and care will be taken that a due proportion of artillery and cavalry be attached to each column.
Gen. Wintzingerode, in acknowledging
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ed his departure from Vienna four days, the first Russian column will not move till the 20th of August, and consequently the other terms must vary accordingly.
N.B. In case that the cross roads from Brünn to Krems should on examination be found too difficult, the army will take the rout from Brünn to Vienna, and thence along the high road to Lintz; and every possible exertion will be made to recover by forced marches the loss of time occasioned by this detour.
Asks that this first Russian army might, in case circumstances should require it, take a different line of march, either towards Italy, or to some other point of the frontiers of Germany. N. B. gen. Wintzingerode replied, that the commanding officer of this army would be directed to adopt any new line of march, which might be pointed out to him by his imp. and royal maj. himself, or by H. R. H. the archduke Charles.
To determine the relations between the commanding officer of this army and the imperial and royal commander in chief, and to request that the instructions given to the commander of the Russian forces should be communicated to the Austrian commander in chief. N. B. gen. Wintzingerode flatters himself, that in the case of the absence or illness of his imp. and royal majesty, or of H. R. H. the archduke Charles, his imp. maj. of Russia would consent to place his army under the general direction of the Austrian commander in chief
pro tempore,
To agree and determine on the manner, in which the combined armies shall reciprocally appoint a general plenipotentiary to reside at their respective head-quarters. The destination and influence of the same.
The arrangements taken by the Russian army to replace the artillery which may be disabled.
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the necessity of accelerating the march of this body of troops by forced marches, added only one condition, that no one day's march should exceed 4 post miles, and that each 4th day should be a halting day; and the hereto annexed marche-route was accordingly agreed to.—According to this marche-route each Russian column will reach the Inn in about 2 months, and if each column arrives at Brody 2 days subsequent to the preceding one, the last, that is, the 6th column will reach the banks of the Inn on the 20th of October.
Agreed to.
General Wintzingerode expressed his hopes that his imperial majesty would, for the advantage of the cause, place this Russian army under the general direction of the imperial and royal commander in chief as far as the unity and combination of operations may render it necessary: he did not, however, consider himself authorized to give this assurance, but on the supposition that the imperial and royal army acting in Germany would be under the command of his royal highness the archduke Charles, or his imperial and royal majesty in person.
The appointment of generals plenip. is deemed necessary. Their object will be to maintain a good understanding between the two armies, to remove from among them every kind of mistrust and every thing which might interfere with their operations, and to inform the commanders in chief of the circumstances that take place in the armies to which they are appointed.
Gen. Wintzingerode suggested, that the remedy for this inconvenience should be provided for in the Austrian states. He was informed in answer, that every possible exertion would be made for that purpose; and that it was, wished that at his
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On the mode of furnishing the Russian army with ammunition for their guns, and how the inconveniences are to be obviated respecting the difference of calibre.
What measures will be adopted for recruiting the Russian army in Germany.
In addition to the twelve points above discussed, the Austrian generals were instructed to concert measures respecting the 2d army destined to act in Germany, as well as the body of Russians at Corfu, destined to be disembarked in Italy.—On the first article, gen. Wintzingerode declared, that he had no doubt but that his imp. maj. would give orders for this 2d army, which was stationed near Bryecz, to begin its march 5 days later than the other, so that on the 20th August it would pass near Therespol, on the frontiers of Austrian Gallicia: but, as this army, together with that on its right wing, which is destined to move forward from Lithuania towards the frontiers of Prussia, is intended, in the first instance, chiefly for the purpose of making demonstrations against Prussia, it becomes impossible to fix any thing more decisive, as to the line of its march, than that in the case of Prussia consenting thereto immediately, it should take the direction of Warsaw, thence to continue its march by Prussian Silesia into Bohemia, or Saxony; but in case this should not be practicable, it should proceed towards Pulawy. On this last supposition it becomes equally difficult to decide when this army will enter Germany and join the first Russian army: and gen. Wintzingerode can do no more than give his assurance, that his imperial master will endeavour (as soon as his relations with Prussia and Saxony will permit) to cause this second army to enter Germany, either by the direct road of Prussian Silesia, or by way of Dresden, (should this last step be rendered necessary by his relations with Saxony, to be regulated by a preliminary concert with Austria), or by way of Prague, in each of these two cases,
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return to St. Petersburgh, a general or a staff officer of the artillery should be sent to Vienna to concert measures on this subject with the Austrian department of artillery
These will be arranged in the way proposed in the former article.
Besides the garrison battalions which are stationed on the Russian frontier, the regiments whereof are to be completed, baron de Wintzingerode hopes that his imp. maj. will be disposed to establish in Germany, at some distance from the army, a corps de reserve, in the proportion of 8 or 10, to 100.
however, this army will then direct its march to the left, towards the Danube; or perhaps in the whole, or in part, towards the Main, should circumstances require it.—With respect to the destination of this 2d army, a wish was expressed on the part of Austria, that the emperor of Russia, as soon as it shall have joined the right wing of the first army, would place the commanding officer of the same under the orders of the commanding officer of the first, in order that this last may be able to employ the forces of the other in the execution of any orders he may have received from the commander in chief of the Austrian army.—This determination becomes highly important from the consideration that this army, even should it be joined by a Prussian army, and by a considerable number of troops of the empire, will never be in a state to act offensively beyond the Rhine, from Basle to the lower Rhine, and particularly against Mentz.—For should even this body of troops become as numerous as is to be wished, the loss of one battle must be always considered as very possible, and the consequence of this might be the defeat or destruction of the whole army, without the possession of any means of defence beyond the Rhine, and having no other retreat than the bridges over the river. It were better on the other hand to consider the whole extent of country along the upper and lower Rhine as impregnable; and the whole united force of the two Russian armies and of the Austrain army will be better employed in the conquest of Switzerland, in the hopes of being able to penetrate through that country into France; and no other part of the second army, which is to form the right wing of the combined
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Corps Volant
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No. III. (D.) (Translation.)
Copy of a Dispatch from the Count de Razoumoffsky, dated at Vienna the 29th April (11 May)
Since the creation of the council of war, I have this day to mention its first meeting, which, directed to other details than those of the administration, at length presents an object worthy of attention. The conferences took place in the presence of his majesty the emperor on Monday and Tuesday last. The committee was composed of the two archdukes Charles and John, the president and vice-president of the council, and quarter-master-general Mack. The question submitted to their deliberation turned on the prodigious increase of the French forces in Italy; on the imminent danger which thence resulted to the frontiers of the hereditary states; on the rapidity with which, from the first hostile determination of Bonaparte, they would be attacked; and on the absolute impossibility of resis tance. This situation was deliberately considered, and it was unanimously decided, even with the consent of the archduke Charles, that it was necessary to rein-
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(Translation.)
Extract from a Memoir on the Situation of Affairs. Communicated by Count Starhemberg.
Never were hopes, founded on the most salutary views and plans, destroyed by a more fatal blow, than the disastrous reverse which our army in Germany has experienced by a concourse of unfortunate circumstances, the consequence of a single fault.—The simultaneous co-operation of the two imperial courts of England and Prussia should have offered, at the commencement of the war, a chain of armed forces from the north to the south, and should have obliged France, by mutual diversions, to separate hers. It was our first misfortune, that none of the hopes we had placed in diversions on the north of the continent, which might have obliged the emperor of the French to divide the troops that he had withdrawn from his coasts, were realised; and not only all these troops were able to be employed against our army in Germany, but even the Gallo-Batavian army and that of Bernadotte could quit Holland and Hanover also, without impediment, to join in the attack. It is to this circumstance that the French troops which were opposed to ours, owe the superiority of their numbers; for, deducting these two armies, the troops arrived from the interior in the course of the month of Oct. have but little exceeded the number of Austrian troops placed on the Iller, where, in the strong position which they occupied, they would have been able to await the junction of the first army of his maj. the emperor of Russia. There was even a moment when they had the hope of preventing the junction of the French troops from the north with those arrived from the interior of France, by falling on a party of the latter; when, as a second misfortune, the violation of the Prussian neutrality suddenly changed the face of affairs and reduced our German army to the alternative, either to fall back immediately on the Inn, or see itself surrounded and destroyed. The retreat on the Inn should have prevented every disagreeable consequence. Joined to the body of the army under the general in chief de Kutusow, these troops would have been sufficient to resist the limited French forces; the subsequent arri-
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(Translation.)
Austrian Declaration.
The court of Vienna has no hesitation to comply with the request of the emperor of the French, for a categorical explanation of their intentions, and of the motives for which they are arming.—The court of Vienna have no other intentions than to preserve peace and the relations of amity with France, as well as the general tranquillity of the continent. They have no other wish than to be assured that the intentions of the emperor Napoleon correspond with theirs.—But the maintenance of peace between two powers does not merely consist in abstaining from positive hostilities: it consists, with equal importance, in the due execution of the treaties by which that peace is established. The power that violates those treaties in essential points, and which refuses to satisfy just claims, is as much the aggressor as if it attacked the other without a colour of justice.—The peace between Austria and France rests on the treaty of Luneville, one of the conditions of which treaty stipulates and guarantees the independence of the Italian republics, as well as of the Helvetian and Batavian republic, and ensures to them the liberty
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(Translation.)
Answer of the French Government to the Declaration of Austria, dated Paris, 13th Aug.
The undersigned having, at the close of the conversation he had the honour to hold with count Cobentzl, instantly transmitted to Boulougne the declaration communicated to him by his exc., has received the commands of the emperor and king, to
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(Translation.)
Note of C. M. Talleyrand, dated Paris, the 16th Aug.
His maj. the emperor had yielded with so much the more confidence to the pacific and amicable protestations of Austria, as
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(Translation.)
Proclamation of the Emperor of Germany, dated Brünn, 13th Nov.
His maj. the emperor has never had any other desire than that of maintaining peace. This desire existed in the principles of his govt., as it now exists in his heart. Far from having any project whatever tending to aggrandize or to indemnify himself for the sacrifices which he has made to the repose of Europe at Luneville and at Ratisbon, his maj. required nothing more than to see the emperor of France, animated with the same spirit of an enlightened and sound policy, retire within the limits which had been fixed by the treaty of Luneville.—All who are truly interested in the fate of Europe, must feel the justice and moderation of these views. True to the same principles, his maj. in the midst of the present war, has ever been ready to stretch forth his hand for peace; nor would he have acted otherwise, after the most brilliant victories, than he now does while under the influence of unhappy events.—His maj. indeed flattered himself that the great and favourable moment of this reconciliation, and of the return of public prosperity, could not be far distant, as the emperor of France had, on different occasions, professed similar sentiments, and had spoken precisely in the same tone to the Austrian generals whom the fate of war had made his prisoners.—Inspired with confi-
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THE TWELFTH REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.—ORDERED TO BE PRINTED, 22d JANUARY, 1806.
PURCHASES OF HEMP, MASTS, AND FIR TIMBER, ON COMMISSION, BY MR. ANDREW LINDEGREN, FOR THE SERVICE OF HIS MAJESTY'S NAVY; FROM 1795 TO 1799.—TRANSFER OF CONTRACTS—AND ALSO, OBSERVATIONS, BY WAY OF SUPPLEMENT TO THE FIRST REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY, ON THE MEMORIAL OF THE PRINCIPAL OFFICERS AND COMMISSIONERS OF HIS MAJESTY'S NAVY, IN ANSWER TO THAT REPORT.
The Twelfth Report of the Commissioners appointed by an act of the 43d Year of His Majesty's Reign, intituled,—"An Act for appointing Commissioners to enquire and examine into any Irregularities, Frauds, or Abuses, which are or have been practised by Persons employed in the several Naval De partments therein mentioned, and in the Business of Prize Agency, and to report such Observations as shall occur to them for preventing such Irregu larities, Frauds, and Abuses, and for the better conducting and managing the Business of the said Departments, and of Prize Agency, in future;" continued and amended by an Act of the 45th year of the present King, chapter the 46th.
PURCHASES OF HEMP, MASTS, AND FIR TIMBER, ON COMMISSION, BY MR. ANDREW LINDEGREN, FOR THE SERVICE OF HIS MAJESTY'S NAVY; FROM 1795 TO 1799.
IN our Ninth Report on the subject of the receipt and issue of stores in his majesty's Dock Yard at Plymouth, we stated, (see vol. III. p. 1120) on the authority of the evidence of the clerk of the rope yard and master rope-maker, that much of the Hemp delivered there by persons employed by the navy board, during
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PURCHASES OF HEMP.
At an early period of our enquiry, we issued our precept to the navy board for Mr. Lindegren's Accounts of the purchase of Hemp, together with the vouchers, and the official statements made of his accounts. The accounts and statements were in consequence transmitted to us: but we were informed that some of the vouchers were missing, which it afterwards appeared had been returned to Messrs. Godfrey Thornton and son, subsequently to the passing of the accounts. At the requisition of the navy board, Messrs. Thorntons caused search to be made for the vouchers, which were mostly discovered, and forwarded to us; but as some of the accounts current between the different parties concerned in the payment for the Hemp could not be found, by which the rates of exchange at which the bills were drawn, could have been ascertained, we were unable to give the accounts that complete revision which we intended.
Mr. Lindegren purchased Hemp under commissions from the navy board, in the years 1795, 6, 7, and 9. Mr. Lindegren was also employed in the years 1800 and 1801, to make purchases of Hemp, through neutral merchants, in consequence of the embargo in Russia; but as his accounts for such purchases were under examination by the navy board, we did nut extend our enquiries to those transactions.—The first statement made by the navy board of Mr. Lindegren's accounts, is of the purchases effected by him under the commission of the 9th of Jan. 1795, amounting to 439,934
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d
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d
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xc
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d
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l.,
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d
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d
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l.
The Second Statement made by the navy board, of Mr. Lindegren's Accounts for the purchase of Hemp, is for that provided by him under the commission of the 2d of Aug. 1796, amounting to 167,751
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d
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d
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d
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The Third Statement made by the navy board of Mr. Lindegren's accounts for the purchase of Hemp, is for that provided by him in 1797, amounting to 180,918
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d
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c
The Fourth Statement made by the navy board, of Mr. Lindegren's accounts for the purchase of Hemp, is for that provided by him in 1799, amounting to 117,461
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PURCHASES OF MASTS, FIR TIMBER, &c.
The first lord of the admiralty, in his letter to the comptroller of time navy of the 6th of Jan. 1795, authorizing him to send an able and confidential person to Riga to purchase Hemp, is silent as to the purchase of Masts; but the comptroller states in his evidence, that he had verbal directions from his lordship for that purpose. He therefore, in his instructions to Mr. Lindegren, directed him, in case he should meet with any Masts at Riga of the size of 20 inches and upwards, which he should have reason to believe were going to the enemy, to endeavour to prevent their receiving such supply by any means that might occur to him; and in case he should not be able to obtain
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d
So much has already been said on the subject of the employment of Mr. Lindegren, and of the additional expence which was thereby incurred, that we think it unnecessary to say any thing further here, than that we are of opinion no advantage was gained that might not have been expected from the employment of any established house in the Russia trade.—This account was passed on the 20th of June 1797, subsequent to the appointment of the committee of accounts, but at a time when, as we are informed, their examination of the accounts was confined to the consideration of the circumstances pointed out to their attention by the statements of the accounts made by the clerks.—The commission charged by Messrs. Thorley and co. was, as we have before observed, with respect to the accounts for Hemp purchased in the years 1795, 96, and 97, included in the sum inserted in the official abstract as the prime cost of the different cargoes: it was consequently unknown to the board at the time of passing the account, that this expence of commission, in addition to what they had agreed to allow to Mr. Lindegren on the purchase, had been incurred.—We found upon examining and comparing Mr. Lindegren's accounts with the vouchers produced by him to the navy board, that there had been laden on board the Peggy, one of the Mast ships, 138 loads 14 feet of Fir Timber, of which only 94 loads 45 feet were received in Portsmouth Yard; the remainder was returned to Mr. Lindegren; but the insurance and duty upon the whole quantity, we found were charged to the public, as well as the duty upon several parcels of firewood imported in the Mast ships on Mr. Lindegren's private account.—On questioning Mr. Lindegren to these points, he stated, that his charging the
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d
l.
l.
The Second Statement made by the navy board of Mr. Lindegren's accounts for the purchase of Masts, is for those imported in 1797, including the cost of one cargo of Hemp. In this account the public were
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s
cx
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l.
l.
l.
The Third Statement made by the navy board, of Mr. Lindegren's accounts for the purchase of Masts, is for those imported in 1798, amounting to 33,661
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s
d
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d
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d
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d.
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d.
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d.,
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s.
d.
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d.,
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s.
d.,
Upon a review of these transactions, we feel ourselves called upon to state, that by a want of sufficient knowledge (which should have been previously obtained) of the circumstances attending the employment of an agent sent from this country for the purchase of Naval Stores, and the neglect shewn in the examination of Mr. Lindegren's accounts, a very considerable and unnecessary expence has been incurred. The amount of Mr. Lindegren's commission on the purchases made prior to 1798, was, 27,651
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d.
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d.,
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1796. Feb. 27. Cash paid him
£9,550
0
0
April 29. Amount of Hanbury and co.'s draft of the 10th of Nov.
10,624
14
3
Balance of account of Naval Stores imported, carried to the credit of Mr. Lindegren's particular account
7,237
8
3
1797. June 2. Ditto
15,674
19
7
£43,087
2
1
The bills drawn at Riga in payment for the articles purchased by Mr. L. as well as all the expences attending their importation, were paid by Messrs. G. Thornton and son, to whom, in fact, the money necessary for that purpose was issued by the navy board, although the bills were made out in Mr. L.'s name. It was not therefore right or necessary that Mr. L. should have withdrawn from Messrs. G. Thornton and son more than the amount of his commission upon the articles purchased. Mr. G. Thornton, who acted as attorney to Mr. L., states, that he was unacquainted with the amount of his commission, and that when he called upon him for money, he paid it to him.—At the time Mr. L. had received the sums amounting to. 43,087
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Where irregularities or abuses in any of the public departments, such as we have had occasion to notice in this Report, have arisen from a want of sufficient vigilance and attention to the examination of accounts, the means of preventing them are to be looked for not so much in new regulations as in an increase of vigilance and attention. Still there are some regulations connected with the subjects of this enquiry, which we think it may be advantageous to adopt.—Whenever it may be judged advisable to employ agents to make purchases for govt., we recommend that the public boards should previously stipulate with them, that the rate of commission which may be agreed upon, shall constitute the whole of the remuneration, and that
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CHARLES M. POLE.
EWAN LAW.
JOHN FORD.
HENRY NICHOLLS.
W. MACKWORTH PRAED.
TRANSFER OF CONTRACTS.
Having in the course of our Enquiry into the subject of this Report, required Mr. Lindegren to produce to us his account with Messrs. Thorley, Morison and co., in which he had given them credit for the proceeds of the Masts, belonging to the public, that he had received out of Portsmouth yard, we discovered some circumstances relative to the Transfer of Contracts, which we think it our duty to notice. In that account Messrs. Thorley, Morison and co. are charged with the sum of 12,000
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CHARLES M. POLE.
EWAN LAW.
JOHN FORD.
HENRY NICHOLLS.
WM. MACK WORTH PRAED.
FIRST REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS FOR REVISING AND DIGESTING THE CIVIL AFFAIRS OF HIS MAJESTY'S NAVY. DATED JUNE 13, 1805.—ORDERED TO BE PRINTED, FEBRUARY 4, 1806.
The FIRST REPORT of the commissioners appointed to revise the system and mode of accounting for the receipt and expenditure of money and stores; and likewise the instructions and standing orders for the govt. of the civil departments of his maj.'s naval service; and to arrange and frame a regular digest of the same; having it carefully in view to adapt the mode of accounting for monies and stores, and likewise the whole body of such orders and instructions, to the present extensive scale of the naval service; and to take measures for keeping up the said system and digest in all time to come; and who were further required to take into their particular consideration, all such suggestions as have been made by the different BOARDS OF ENQUIRY AND SELECT COMMITTEE ON FINANCE, and have not yet been adapted; and to examine which of the same appear to be practicable and consistent with the good of the service, and to consider and devise the best means of carrying the same into execution, in the most convenient and ex-
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WE
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first
second
last,
First Period.
During the First period it appears, that our kings had neither arsenals nor Dock yards: their only permanent Naval force consisted of 57 vessels, each carrying 21 men and a boy, well armed and fitted for war, which the Cinque ports were bound by their charters to furnish on 40 days' notice from the crown.* When in a case of war a greater force was required, ships were hired from merchants at home, or from those in Dantzic, Hamburgh, Lubec, Genoa, and other ports, or were fitted out from various motives by private adventurers, who shared in the advantages acquired: trading vessels, having in those times no protection from ships of war belonging to their respective governments, were necessarily armed for their own defence.
Second Period.
The foundation of the Navy of England was laid by Henry VIII. He constituted an Admiralty and a Navy Board, and during his reign, the Trinity house, and the Dock Yards at Deptford, Woolwich, and Portsmouth, were formed: the regulations which he made for the Civil govt. of Naval Affairs were, in the reign of Edward VIth, revised, arranged, and turned into ordinances which form the basis of all the subsequent instructions given to the officers, to whom the management of the Civil Affairs of the navy has been committed.—The officers then appointed were, the Vice-Admiral of England; the Master of the Ordnance; the Surveyor of the Marine Causes; the Treasurer, Comptroller, and General Surveyor of the Victualling, Clerk of the Ships, and Clerk of the Stores.—Particular duties were allotted to each member; and they were ordered to meet once a week at the office on Tower hill, to consult together for the good order of the Navy, and to report their proceedings once a month to the lord high admiral.—But the ships belonging to the crown or provided by the civil department of the navy, still
*Exton states, that "in the Admirals Commissioners of old, they are named Admirals of the Ships of the Cinque ports and other ports;" without any mention of the ships of the king. Pepys Naval Minutes, MS. p. 71.
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Third Period.
On the restoration of Charles II, the duke of York was immediately appointed lord high admiral, and by his advice a committee was named to consider a plan, proposed by himself, for the future regulation of the affairs of the navy, at which the duke himself presided. In all naval affairs he appears to have acted with the advice and assistance of Mr. Samuel Pepys, who, first, held the office of Clerk of the acts, and was afterwards secretary of the Admiralty: a man of extraordinary knowledge in all that related to the business of that department, of great talents, and the most indefatigable industry. All the proceedings of the duke of York in the management of the Navy, either when he was lord high admiral, or after he came to the throne, are minutely detailed in a great number of manuscript volumes in the Pepysian library at Cambridge, of which 18 volumes have, at our desire, been sent for our perusal.—The powers which had been before granted to the commissioners of the Admiralty and the Navy Board were recalled, and the entire management was put into the hands of the duke, as lord high admiral; by whom three new commissioners were appointed to act with the treasurer of the navy, the Comptroller, the Surveyor, and the Clerk of the Acts, as principal officers and commissioners of the wavy.—In 1661, those Instructions and Standing Orders for the guidance of the principal officers and commissioners of the Navy, and the superior officers in the Dock Yards. which are still in force, were sent to the Navy Board by the duke of York. These had been formed under his direction by Mr. Pepys, and have been found ever since of great use and value in the management of the Naval departments.—It appears, that after the duke's appointment great progress was very speedily made in the reparation and increase of the fleet; but on his return from his command at the end of the Dutch war which commenced in 1664, he found that, though he had authorized the Navy Board to make all the addition to their establishment which the exigencies of the war might require, yet the same careful management had not been continued during his absence. The example of zeal and industry set by Mr. Pepys in his office of Clerk of the Acts, had not been sufficient, without the presence and authority of the duke, to prevent neglect in the other departments, and the fleet and
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l
Of Ships of the line, at sea, or going forth
52
Ditto repaired
41
93
Under repair
8
To be repaired
3
Newly come in from Sea
4
108
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The various duties of the six principal officers of the Dock Yards before-mentioned will, we apprehend, be found to be sufficiently explained, and detailed with as much minuteness as can be necessary in the following Instructions, which we propose to be given to them. [Here follow the said Instructions.]
Our next Report will contain Orders and Directions for all the inferior Officers, and those will be followed by such Regulations and Instructions as we shall deem it proper to propose for the guidance of the commissioners themselves in the different boards, whore systems of management your majesty has been pleased to submit to our revision.—To prevent abuses or neglect, it is necessary that every person intrusted with an office, should be made Strictly responsible for the regular execution of it. But before this necessary rule can be rigidly enforced, justice requires, that the officer should be made perfectly acquainted with all the particulars of his duty; and as it is admitted that this has not hitherto been effectually done, we thought that, in the order of proceeding in the execution of what is entrusted to us,
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BARHAM. (L. S.)
JOHN FORDYCE. (L. S.)
ROGER CURTIS. (L. S.)
W. DOMETT. (L. S.)
AMBROSE SERLE. (L. s.)
June 13th, 1805.
REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE APPOINTED TO DRAW UP ARTICLES OF IMPEACHMENT AGAINST HENRY LORD VISCOUNT MELVILLE. PRESENTED TO THE HOUSE OF COMMONS 4th MARCH, 1806.
The Committee appointed to draw up articles of Impeachment against Henry Lord Visc. Melville; and who were impowered to report such further matters as shall have come to their knowledge in the course of the examinations taken before them, with respect to the conduct of the said Lord Visc. Melville, during the time that he held the Office of Treasurer of his Majesty's Navy; have agreed to the following Report.
Your committee have already reported to the house several articles of impeachment against Henry lord viscount Melville, which they considered it their duty to prepare without delay, upon the circumstances and transactions disclosed in the reports referred to them.—They have since applied themselves to the further investigation of the matters contained in those reports, and having obtained much new and material information which in the judgement of your committee will make it necessary to prefer an additional article or additional articles of impeachment against lord Melville, they think it their duty previously to submit the same to the consideration of the house.—The attention of your committee has been particularly directed to a sum of 10,000
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1782. Nov. 6. From the Excheq.
£5,000
22. From ditto
3,000
Dec. 19. From ditto
3,000
1783. Jan. 2. From Mr. Ellis's Treasurership
5,000
Making in the whole
£16,000
How this sum of 16,000
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1782. Nov. 11. Front the chest to Lord Melville
500
12. Do.
2,000
22. Do.
1,000
25. Do.
3,000
Dec. 19. Do.
1,000
—Do.
3,000
1783. April 5, Do.
2,500
Making in the whole
£13,000
In which sum of 13,000
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Against lord Melville was
£89,408
12
3
And the bank balance in his favour only
66,408
12
3
Being deficient by
23,000
0
0
The whole of this 23,000
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Dr.
Lord Melville
Cr.
1783:
£.
1783:
—.
April 14. To Bank Balance
23,000
June 24. By Gray
1,000
July 7. By Atkinson
5,000
11. By Gray
1,400
12. By Atkinson
6,000
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31. By Do.
2,000
15,400
By Balance
7,600
23,000
23,000
From the 31st July, 1783, until after lord Melville's re-appointment to the office in Jan. 1784, he remained indebted to the account of his ex-treasurership at the bank in the above sure of 7,600
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APPENDIX.
No. 1.—
Copy of an Account taken from a Book belonging to the late Andrew Douglas, Esq. Paymaster of the Navy during the first Treasurership of Lord Viscount Melville; and from the commencement of his second Treasurership to Mr. Douglas's decease in Dec.
The Right Hon. Henry Dundas, Lord Advocate, Treasurer of his Majesty's Navy. His account with And. Douglas.
1782.
Aug, 10.
To cash paid Messrs. R. and H. Drummond, and Co. per Receipt
£.1,000
0
0
Sept. 23.
To Sol. Dyson's disbursements on the patent and entry at 5 offices, per acct.
123
3
3
Nov, 6.
Fees, &c. on the King's Warrant for treasurer's salary to be made up nett 4,000
l
10
11
0
Entry of ditto at the 2 auditors of accounts and at the Navy Office, one guinea each
5
5
0
Sept. 10.
Entry of letter of attorney at the Exch., the Pells, and the Treasury
2
12
0
Nov. 22.
Two warrants for 2 does at half a guinea each
1
1
0
1142
12
9
Dec. 19.
Received per my rect. in consequence of his lordship's rect. out of the of fice iron chest
1000
0
0
Remains per acct. Delivered
142
12
9
Copy of another Account from the same Book.
Rt. Hon. H. Dundas, Treasurer of the Navy, his iron chest in the office cash room.
Nov. 6.
Lodged in the iron chest by the treasurer's order, part of this day's receipt in the Excheq. for the use of the navy
5000
0
0
Nov. 10.
Delivered to the tr. per his receipt
500
0
0
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Nov. 12.
Delivered to the tr. per his receipt 2000 0 0
2500
0
0
Remain
2500
0
0
—22.
Delivered to the treasurer per his receipt
1000
0
0
1500
0
0
—25.
Lodged in the iron chest by the treasurer's order, part of this day's receipt for the use of the navy at the Exch.
3000
0
0
4500
0
0
—25.
Delivered to the treasurer per his receipt
3000
0
0
1500
0
0
Dec. 19.
Delivered to the treasurer per his receipt
1000
0
0
500
0
0
Lodged in the iron chest, part of this day's receipt at the Excheq. for the navy
3000
0
0
3500
0
0
Delivered to the treasurer per his receipt
3000
0
0
—20.
The above state was this day delivered, signed, to the treasurer, the remaining balance agreed in
500
0
0
1783.
Jan. 2.
Lodged in the iron chest, received from trshp. of Mr. Ellis, for like sum transferred at Plymouth
5000
0
0
5500
0
0
—4.
Delivered to Mr. Jellicoe towards his office payments per his receipt
3000
0
0
Apr. 5.
Delivered to the treasurer this remainder as per receipt
2500
0
0
—5.
Total as above delivered to the treasurer
13000
0
0
—14.
Draft on the Bank to A. Jellicoe, Esq. and paid to the treasurer, per receipt
10000
0
0
Total borrowed from office cash
23000
0
0
June 24.
Paid back by Mr. Grey 1000 0 0
July 7.
Paid back by Mr. Atkinson 5000 0 0
—11.
Paid back by Mr. Grey 1400 0 0
—12.
Paid back by Mr. Atkinson 6000 0 0
—31.
Paid back by Mr. Atkinson 2000 0 0
15400
0
0
Remains
7600
0
0
No. 3.—
Copy of another Account from the same Book.
Abstract State, &c.
1783.
April 14.
Borrowed per acct. of this date
23000
0
0
Of which, Repayments made to the Bank; viz.
1783.
June 24.
By Mr. Grey
1000
0
0
July 7.
By Mr. Atkinson
5000
0
0
—12.
By Mr. Grey
1400
0
0
By Mr. Atkinson
6000
0
0
—31.
By Mr. Atkinson
2000
0
0
15400
0
0
1784.
June 30.
Unpaid remainder
7600
0
0
Balance per office cash book this day agreed
Unpaid remainder as above
7600
0
0
1804
In Bank, per bank book this day Agreed 1st treasurership
8
12
3
June 30.
1st treasurership
2d treasurership
21843
7
5
29451
19
8
£.29451
19
8
Nos. 4, 5,and 6.
Statements of the Monthly Balances remaining in the Hands of Lord Melville as Treasurer of the Navy, and accounting for the Deficiencies in the Cash at the Bank, and were found amongst Mr. Douglas's Papers.
cl
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No. 4.—
State of the Balances in the Bank, in the second Treasurership of the Right Hon. Henry Dundas, June
Paymaster's branch
4281
0
0
Cashier's do.
13414
0
9
Victualling do.
8648
6
8
26343
7
5
Cash in Bank
21843
7
5
Transferred at sundry times to 1st trshp.
4500
0
0
£.26343
7
5
No. 5.—
State of the Bank Account in the Treasurership of the Right Hon. Henry Dundas, March
No. 6.—
State of the Bank Account in the 2d Treasurership of the Right Hon. Henry Dundas, May
Paymaster's branch
£.5972
16
4
Paymaster's branch
£.19832
16
4
Cashier's do.
22192
19
7
Cashier's do.
54773
19
11
Victualling do.
15352
10
9
Victualling do.
13352
10
9
Exd. p' F. Cooke.
43518
6
8
Exd. p' F. Cooke.
£.87959
7
0
In Bank
35518
6
8
£.77959
7
0
In Bank
Sundry transfers from this to the 1st trshp. vide account of 30 June, 1784
4500
0
0
6000
0
0
Sundry transfers from this to old account; vide account of 31 march 1784
*
Transfer from this to 1st trshp. on 1st inst.
1500
0
0
2000
0
0
Draft on the Bank of 20 Aug. 1784.
6000
0
0
2000
0
0
Draft on the Bank of 25 May, 1785.
Draft on the Bank of 20 Aug. Last-
2000
0
0
£.43518
6
8
£87959
7
0
*This date is evidently a mistake; it should be 1785, as appears by the preceding account, No. 5.
No. 7.—
The following Account is extracted from the Books of Mure and Atkinson.
Dr.
Lord Advocate of Scotland,
in Accot. Currt. With Mure and Co.
Cr.
1780. Apr.
To Balce. of Col. Dundas's acct.
£.634
18
0
1782.
Sept. 10. By cash recd. From R. Atkinson
3900
0
0
1781. May 31.
To cash paid his dft. dated 22d inst.
300
0
0
Nov. 16
By do. Recd. From R. A.'s dft. On Smith and Co.
2002
11
3
Aug. 20.
To do. pd. his dft. to Mr. Spottiswood
300
0
0
1783.
Apr. 17. By do. Recd. From him
10000
0
0
Dec. 3.
To do. pd. do. to Jas. New-bigging
300
0
0
19.
By do. Recd. From A. Gray
936
0
0
1782. Jan. 28.
To do. pd. do. to do.
500
0
0
May 16.
By do. Recd. From Col. Dundas
600
0
0
June 15.
To do. pd. Mr. Bell dft. dated 11th inst.
1200
0
0
June 12.
By bills recd. From him on Coutts and Co. Viz.
July 30.
To do. pd. Ph. Dundas's bill to G. Urquhart
113
18
9
Due 20 July
2000
0
0
Aug. 5.
To do. pd. his dft. to W. Bell
100
0
0
30 —
2000
0
0
12.
To do. pd. Him
100
0
0
9 Aug.
2840
0
0
21.
To do. pd. Ph. Dundas's dft.
30
0
0
6840
0
0
31.
To do. pd. do. bill to J. and D. Webster
182
0
0
Sept. 17.
To do. pd. his order to W. Bell
200
0
0
26.
To do. pd. do. dft. to Bell and Rannie
500
0
0
28.
To do. pd. do. bill to W. Bell
300
0
0
Oct. 15.
To do. pd. do. dft. to Sir W. Forbes and Co.
500
0
0
19.
To do. pd. do. to W. Bell
500
0
0
Nov. 29.
To int. on Col. Dundas's acct. to 11th Sept. Last
130
14
4
To cash for balance pd. Him
11
0
7
1783. Jan. 27.
To do. pd. Him
400
0
0
Apr. 30.
To do. pd. Capt. Dundas dft. dated 19th inst.
600
0
0
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May 21.
To do. pd. him the sum recd. 19 April
936
0
0
June 30.
To do. pd. do. dft. dated 5th inst.
400
0
0
July 2.
To do. pd. the Bank on his acct.
5000
0
0
11.
To do. pd. do.
6000
0
0
31.
To do. pd. do.
2000
0
0
Dec. 31.
To do. pd. dft. to Mr. Bell
300
0
0
1784. July 12.
To do. pd. Him
2000
0
0
1785. Feb. 15.
To bills payable for H. Dundas's bill
600
0
0
To balance
140
0
0
£.24278
11
8
Henry Callender
£.24278
11
8
THE FIRST REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF MILITARY ENQUIRY, APPOINTED BY AN ACT OF THE 45TH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF HIS PRESENT MAJESTY, CAP. 47; INTITULED,
"An Act to appoint Commissioners to enquire and examine into the Public Expenditure, and the Conduct of Public Business, in the Military Departments therein mentioned; and to report such Observations as shall occur to them for correcting or preventing any Abuses and Irregularities, and for the better conducting and managing the Business of the said Departments."
ORDERED TO BE PRINTED 21ST MARCH, 1806.
THE act from which we derive our appointment, received the royal assent on the 5th of June last; but circumstances, which it is needless to state, prevented our proceeding on the duties imposed on us, before the beginning of the following month.—Our first object of deliberation was, to fix on the department with which to commence our labours; for although the legislature had been sufficiently explicit in enumerating the subjects of our enquiries, it had not directed the course and order of them. A variety of considerations determined us to begin with enquiring into the conduct of the Barrack department. It was known, that its expenditure had been very great, and that its operations had been various and exceedingly extensive; yet that no scrutiny had been made into its conduct, except by,the select committee
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HISTORY OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE BARRACK DEPARTMENT.
Before the present Barrack department was established, Barracks were built under the direction of the Board of Ordnance, by whom also they were supplied with bedding and utensils; but the articles which were termed Extraordinary, were under the management of the Secretary at War. This system prevailed until the middle of 1792, when the situation of public affairs induced his majesty's ministers to give orders to build, with the utmost dispatch, Cavalry Barracks in various parts of the kingdom; and col. De Lancey, then dep. adj.-gen. to his majesty's forces, was requested to undertake the arrangement of this business. Col. De Lancey accordingly proceeded to the towns pointed out, where he purchased or hired land, and settled the business so as to be executed under the care and direction of the officers commanding regiments quartered in those towns, who were to correspond with the secretary at war (sir George Yonge, bart.) on the subject, and to draw for whatever money might be necessary for the buildings; and having done this, col. De Lancey considered that he was no longer responsible for, nor connected with the business, and returned to his duty as dep. adj.-gen.—This measure of govt. was no sooner public, than applications were made from different towns for Barracks, and as these papers were refer, red to col. De Lancey, he made out a general arrangement of Barracks, according to the customary distribution of troops in the country, in order that govt. might judge, when applications were received for Barracks, how far it was or was not expedient to comply therewith. This plan was laid before ministers by the secretary at war
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MODE OF RECEIVING AND ISSUING MONEY.
From the time that col. De Lancey was appointed superitendant-general of Barracks, in the year 1793, issues of money for Barrack services ceased to be made to regimental agents, and were made to him as superintendant of Barracks. The mode observed in making these issues, was this: The secretary at war directed the paymaster-general to pay to col. De Lancey, or to the Barrack agent or treasurer, on his ac-
clviii
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CAUSES OF DELAY.
In conformity to the 23d clause of his maj.'s warrants for regulation of Barracks above recited, which directed the Barrack-master-general to deliver into the office of the secretary at war annually a general account of Barrack expenditure for the preceding 12 months, col. De Lancey (then become a major-general) delivered in 1795, into the office of his maj.'s secretary at war, the accounts of his department for 1792, 1793, and to 24th June 1794. The accounts of 1792, it will be recollected, relate to a period when lieut.-gen. De Lancey does not consider himself as responsible; the payments were then made by officers commanding regiments at the quarters near which the Barracks were erecting, who drew for the same on their respective regimental agents, to whom moneys were advanced by the paymaster-general, in consequence of particular directions front the secretary at war; and the introduction of these payments, viz. 48,661
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MEASURES PROPOSED FOR A SPEEDY SETTLEMENT OF THE ACCOUNTS.
Such is the history of the accounts of the
*
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clxxvii
clxxviii
clxxix
clxxx
clxxxi
l
As connected with the subject of this report, we fell it our duty to notice a matter which the present Barrack-master-general apprehends will very much delay the passing of his accounts before the auditors, and may eventually impose on him a very unjustifiable burthen of responsibility. His apprehension is founded on the state of the office accounts in respect of Barrack buildings, which have been entirely, or in a great part executed under the orders of his predecessor. The agreement which the
clxxxii
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H. OAKES. (L. S.)
J. DRINKWATER. (L. S.)
SAM. C. Cox. (L. s.)
GILES TEMPLEMAN. (L. S.)
HENRY PETERS. (L. S.)
CHAS. BOSANQUET. (L. S.)
J. C. STEPHENSON. (L. S.)
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Administration of Justice in Scotland, 807
American Intercourse Bill, 592, 767, 808, 900, 905, 1030
B
Beckwith's Estate Bill, 958
C
Conduct of Judge Fox, 12, 176, 249
Continental War, 73, 111, 143
D
Declaratory Bill, Witnesses', 360, 401, 421, 483, 502, 950
Discovery of Truth Bill, 450
Duckworth, Admiral, Vote of Thanks to, 529
E
Ellenborough, lord; his Seat in the Cabinet, 178, 253
F
Fox, Conduct of Judge, 12, 176, 249
I
Impeachment of Lord Melville, 22, 426, 522, 529, 557, 794, 808, 901, 904, 927
Indemnity Bill, Witnesses', 166, 169, 179, 222, 244, 342, 362
Insolvent Debtors' Bill, 368, 901
K
King's Speech, 1
King's Message respecting Prussia, 806, 881
M
Melville, Lord; Impeachment of, 22, 426, 522, 529, 557, 794, 808, 901, 904, 927
Message from the King respecting Prussia, 806, 831
Military Establishments of the Country, 590
N
Navy, Vote of Thanks to the, 28, 35, 75
P
Prussia, King's Message respecting, 806, 881
S
Scotland, Administration of Justice in, 807
V
Vincent, Earl St.; his Annuity Bill, 177
Vote of Thanks to the Navy, 23, 35, 75
Vote of Thanks to Admiral Duckworth, 529
W
War, Continental, 73, 111, 143
Witnesses' Declaratory Bill, 360, 401, 421, 483, 502, 950
Witnesse
Woollen Manufacture Suspension Bill, 449, 485
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Additional Force Bill, Repeal of the, 21, 961
Additional Force Bill, Petition from Berks for the Repeal of, 26; from St. Mary-la-Bonne, 175
Address of the Commons on the King's Speech, 15; the King's Answer, 29
Affairs of India, 36, 108, 118, 162, 181, 187, 192, 229, 241, 285, 351, 380, 405, 409, 434, 470, 490, 521, 796, 810, 851, 894, 932
Army Estimates, 111, 114, 351, 367
Arcot, Debts of the Nabobs of, 724,755
Auditorship of the Exchequer, 140, 148, 154
American Intercourse Bill, 834
B
Budget, 504, 525, 564, 587, 599
C
Cape of Good Hope Regulation Bill, 539, 753
Collingwood, lord; his Annuity Bill, 163, 350
Committee of Supply, 32, 107, 533, 537
Continental War, 90
Cornwallis, Monument to Marquis, 120
Courts Martial, Regimental, 182
Customs' Duties Bill, 903
D
Dublin Paving Bill, 484, 536
Duckworth, Admiral, Vote of Thanks to, 534
E
Election Treating Bill, 371, 426, 505, 955
Ellenborough, Lord; his Seat in the Cabinet, 181, 286
Exchequer Bills, 158, 448
Ex-Parte Criminal Proceedings Bill, 795, 902
I
Impeachment of Lord Melville, 24, 30, 347, 364, 526, 540
India, Affairs of, 36, 108, 118, 162, 181, 187, 192, 229, 241, 285, 351, 380, 405, 409, 434, 470, 490, 521, 796, 810, 851, 894, 932
Ireland, Union with, 173
Irish Population Bill, 113
Irish First Fruits Bill, 183
Irish Catholics, 404
Irish Clergy Residence Bill, 428
Irish Militia Service Bil1, 452, 487
Irish House Duty Bill, 745
Irish Bank Notes Duties' Bill, 748
Iron Duty Bill, 948
K
King's Speech on opening the Session, 1, 13
King's Message relating to Prussia, 886
M
Malt Duty Bill, 147
Melville, Lord, Impeachment of, 24, 30, 347, 364, 526, 540
Middlesex Election, 183
Military Opinions relating to the Army, 777
Military Establishments of the Country, 356, 446, 501, 560, 652
Monument to the Memory of Marquis Cornwallis, 120
N
Naval Victories, 22
Naval Revision, Commission of, 453
Navy, Vote of Thanks to the, 97
Navy, Increased Pay of the, 908, 929
O
Ordnance Treasurer's Bill, 233, 527
Ordnance Estimates, 456
P
Petition from Berks, for the repeal of the Additional Force Bill, 26
Pitt, Mr., Funeral Honours to the Memory of, 30, 41
Pitt, Mr.; Payment of his Debts, 128
Property Duty Bill, 638, 931
Prussia, King's Message relating to, 886
R
Regimental Courts Martial, 182
S
Sinking Fund, 182
Slave Importation Regulation Bill, 597, 805, 839, 917, 1021
Stipendiary Curates' Bill, 741, 922
T
Treasurer of the Ordnance Bill, 233, 527
Trotter, Mr., Report from Impeachment Committee respecting, 353. His Petition to be discharged, 359
U
Union with Ireland, 173
V
Vincent, Earl St.; his Annuity Bill, 232
Vincent, Earl St., Conduct of, 82, 743, 886
Volunteers, 231, 840
Vote of Thanks to the Navy, 97
Vote of Thanks to Admiral Duckworth, 534
W
War, Continental, 90
Waterford Writ, 536, 562, 751
Wellesley, Marquis, his Answer to the Vote of Thanks, 25
Wellesley, Marquis, Motions relative to the Conduct of, 36, 108, 118, 162, 229, 285, 380, 409, 470, 521, 796, 810, 851, 894, 932
Witnesses' Declaratory Bill, 524, 752, 768, 898
Witnesses' Indemnity Bill, 159
Wool Exportation Bill, 358
Woollen Weavers' Petition, 168
Woollen Manufacturers' Petition, 348,432
INDEX OF NAMES.
A
Abercorn, Marquis of, 12, 176, 249
Asaph, Bishop of, 958
Auckland, Lord, 223, 252, 403, 426, 450, 592, 596, 767, 809, 907, 927, 953
B
Boringdon, Lord, 266
Bristol, Earl of, 178, 179, 253
Buckingham, Marquis of, 252
Buckinghamshire, Earl of, 252
C
Caernarvon, Earl of, 274
Camden, Earl, 590, 591
Carleton, Lord, 6, 12
Carlisle, Earl of, 265
Clarence, Duke of, 35, 78, 81
Cowper, Earl, 8
E
Eldon, Lord; see Lord Chancellor, 29, 170, 171, 172, 176, 179, 180, 224, 227, 246, 263, 274, 343, 361, 363, 421, 422, 502, 503, 901, 904, 927, 951, 958
Ellenborough, Lord Chief Justice, 248, 451, 483, 486, 901, 952, 959
Erskine, Lord;
see
Essex, Earl of, 4
G
Grenville, Lord, 8, 11, 177, 178, 226, 250, 450, 529, 531, 557, 590, 591, 596, 807, 881
H
Hawkesbury, Lord, 9, 35, 75, 79, 81, 166, 226, 252, 274, 591, 592, 767, 884, 928, 950, 951
Holland, Lord, 28, 167, 171, 180, 224, 277, 342, 362, 368, 422, 557, 592, 595, 767, 808, 900, 901, 907, 959
Hood, Lord, 79
L
Lincoln, Bishop of, 958
Lord Chancellor (Eldon), 29
Lord Chancellor (Erskine), 171, 226, 247, 283, 343, 360, 370, 401, 402, 422, 484, 480, 502, 905, 928, 951, 959
M
Melville, Lord, 22, 522
Moira, Earl of, 369, 901, 953
Montrose, Duke of, 595, 596, 808
Mulgrave, Lord, 10, 73, 111, 143, 272, 885
N
Norfolk, Duke of, 28, 31, 531, 927, 928, 958
R
Radnor, Earl of, 227, 809, 901, 905
Romney, Earl of, 531
Rosslyn, Earl of, 592
S
Sheffield, Lord, 595, 900, 905, 906, 907
Sidmouth, Lord, 80, 267
Spencer, Earl, 79, 449, 959
Stanhope, Earl, 225, 245, 249, 401, 403, 404, 422, 423, 450, 487, 558, 952, 953
St. John, Lord, 260
V
Vincent, Earl St., 82
W
Walsingham, Lord, 28, 809, 901
INDEX OF NAMES.
A
Abbot, C. Rt. Hon.
see
Addington, Hiley, 44, 190, 222, 242, 286, 351, 383, 418, 471, 476, 479, 482, 483, 490, 495, 499, 634, 761, 799, 804, 820, 879, 880, 896
Ainslie, R. S. 16
Alexander, H. 178, 173, 485, 832, 927
Atkins, J. 443
Attorney-General, (Hon. S. Perceval), 86, 142, 148, 151, 155
Attorney-General (Sir A. Pigott), 518, 525, 597, 599, 752, 770, 918, 919
B
Babington, T. 589, 631
Bagwell, J. 1021
Bankes, W. 498, 543
Barham, J. 839, 903, 924, 956
Baker, W. 103
Bastard, J. 350, 455, 499, 639, 922, 1014
Berkeley, Admiral, 168
Best, Mr. Serjeant, 87, 764, 795, 902
Bathurst, C. B. 946, 948
Blaquiere, Lord De, 485, 536, 787, 1015
Bond, N. 291
Bootle, W. 129
Bourne, S. 147, 561, 585, 634, 1015
Brogden, I. 443
Brooke, C. 349, 425, 588, 635, 805
Brown, I. H. 43, 864, 949
Buller, J. 517
Buxton, Sir R. 46, 384, 515, 638, 921, 956
C
Calcraft, J. 447, 458, 791
Canning, G. 138, 139, 298, 308, 357, 368, 446, 463, 469, 554, 588, 786, 793, 908, 949, 967, 1017, 1018, 1019
Cartwright, W. R. 128
Castlereagh, Lord, 20, 22, 31, 32, 33, 65, 90, 96, 97, 103, 104, 105, 106, 120, 163, 191, 198, 202, 209, 319, 352, 445, 454, 459, 471, 489, 498, 540, 619, 689, 763, 784, 798, 799, 822, 833, 838, 846, 847, 893, 926, 1016
Chancellor of the Exchequer;
see
Corry, I. 946
Courtenay, J.P. 516
Creevey, T. 471
Craufurd, Colonel, 721, 790, 793, 1018
Curtis, Sir W. 182, 805
Cumming, G. 136
D
Dickinson, W. 90
Dillon, H. A. 404
Douglas, Marquis of, 47, 136, 939
Duigeman, Dr. 183, 428, 430, 431
Dundas, C. 26, 722, 1016
Dundas, W. 111, 114, 115, 116, 514, 550, 789
Dundas, R.S. 541
E
Elford, Sir W. 160, 353, 356
Ellison, R. 136
Euston, Lord, 1013
F
Fellowes, W. 924, 950
Fitzgerald, Mr. James, 113
Fitzpatrick, R.
see
Folkestone, Lord, 43, 132, 162, 199, 229, 230, 231, 398, 408, 476, 489, 498, 544
Foster, J. 746, 748, 750
FOX, C. J. 18, 31, 33, 59, 94, 96, 104, 105, 127, 137, 140, 141, 142, 143, 148, 152; (Mr. Secretary), 173, 182, 184, 185, 214, 230, 308, 355, 378, 382, 388, 400, 405, 431, 443, 466, 469, 471, 479, 497, 517, 536, 552, 561, 562, 582, 586, 598, 609, 614, 707, 743, 751, 774, 784, 789, 790, 793, 801, 815, 844, 846, 874, 886, 900, 907, 908, 917, 925, 943, 1017, 1023
Francis, P. 39, 123, 181, 183, 187, 192, 202, 214, 230, 242, 243, 389, 400, 408, 436, 442, 490, 496, 509, 575, 589, 599, 613, 639, 755, 756, 765, 799, 847, 875, 878, 914, 932, 956
Fuller, J. 147, 199, 505, 832, 838
G
Garrow, W. 864
Garlies, Lord, 539, 753, 754,914, 929
Gascoyne, General, 805, 919, 1022
Gibbs, Sir V. 584, 752, 777, 899
Golding, J. 640
Graham, Colonel, 722
Grant, C. 122, 192, 209, 384, 399, 439, 766, 804, 826, 868, 872, 880, 946
Grant, Sir W.
see
Grattan, H. 428
Grey, C. 32, 34, 96, 106; (First Lord of the Admiralty), 534, 556;
see
Grosvenor, General, 107
H
Hamilton, Lord A. 810, 833, 949, 956
Harrison, J. 147, 352, 353
Harvey, Admiral, 132, 165
Hawthorne, C. S. 792, 1005
Herbert, Captain, 517
Hobhouse, B. 639, 724, 756, 764
Howick, Lord, (late Mr. Grey,) 744, 886, 908, 930
Hudleston, J. 126, 140, 286, 384, 480, 520, 521, 640, 722, 812, 875
Hurst, R. 426
Huskisson, W. 526, 529, 584, 586, 614, 932
J
Jeffery, J. 82, 84, 88, 89, 90, 743, 744, 886
Jervis, T. 776, 834
Jnglis, Sir Hugh, 219
Johnstone, G. 218, 380, 400, 418, 514, 633, 804, 818, 946
K
Keene, W. 38, 452, 539, 741, 761, 799
Ker, R. G. 471, 931
L
Langha
Lascelles,
Latouche, J.
Laurence, Dr.
Lee, E. 231, 380, 487, 514, 562, 747, 751, 941
Lefevre, S. 639
Leycester, H. 518
Loftus, General, 536
Long, C. 233, 350, 485, 586, 587, 633
Lovaine, Lord, 43
M
Mainwaring, G. B. 185, 965
Manning, W. 136
Markham, Admiral, 84, 743, 744
Master of the Rolls, (sir W. Grant,) 752, 768, 770, 881, 899
Metcalfe, T. 39, 217, 242, 244, 397, 476, 480, 879
Milner, Sir W. 87
Moore, P. 86, 183, 185, 231, 348, 424, 425
Morpeth, Lord, 192, 217, 408, 499
Morris, E. 506, 514, 899
N
Newport, Sir J. 745, 747, 749, 750, 751
Norton, General, 719
O
O'Hara, C. 126
Ossulston, Lord, 405, 408
P
Patteson, J. 147
Paull, J. 36, 38, 40, 41, 108, 110, 118, 119, 163, 192, 219, 285, 351, 388, 409, 417, 420, 421, 470, 471, 481, 482, 483, 761, 797, 799, 804, 825, 847, 851, 858, 874, 881, 932, 939, 945, 948, 956
Peele, Sir R. 1022
Perceval, Hon. S. (
See
Petty, Lord H. 17, 183, 232, 233, 332, 350, 432, 433, 445, 498, 504, 526, 527, 528, 540, 545, 547, 564, 577, 579, 580, 581, 582, 586, 589, 616, 632, 635, 640, 785, 825, 837, 904, 920, 932, 945, 948, 949
Pigott, Sir Arthur;
see
Pole, Wellesley, 420, 447, 482, 527, 869
Ponsonby, G. 55, 132
Porchester, Lord, 521, 742, 743, 923, 924
Price, Sir C. 921, 1023
Prinsep, J. 127, 218, 241, 285, 286, 434, 444, 599, 639, 903, 919
Pulteney, Sir J. 720, 788, 961
Pytches, J. 46
R
Romilly, Sir S.
see
Rose, G. 57, 134, 143, 147, 148, 149, 152, 233, 426, 504, 515, 525, 546, 578, 580, 582, 586, 589, 627, 791, 834, 839, 864, 904, 917, 918, 932, 948, 957, 1021
Ryder, R. 54
S
Secretary at War, (W. Dundas,) 111, 114, 115, 116
Secretary at War, (General Fitz-patrick,) 351, 368
Sheridan, R.B. 21, 22, 103, 335, 833, 867, 877, 894, 940, 1019
Smith, W. 44, 133, 805, 825, 897, 921, 946, 950
Solicitor-General (Sir S. Romilly) 769, 773, 899
Speaker, the, (Right Hon. C. Abbot,) 13, 22, 25, 84, 88, 89, 141, 163, 173, 184, 185, 229, 243, 349, 357, 360, 482, 521, 598, 863, 847, 857, 858, 864, 897, 928, 948
Spencer, Lord F. 13
Stanhope, S. 164, 181, 182, 286, 956, 1014
T
Tarleton, General, 47, 230, 232, 367, 456, 459, 488, 501, 540, 599, 720, 721, 783, 792, 851, 918
Temple, Earl, 48, 285, 305, 348, 349, 351, 352, 388, 409, 415, 425, 475, 499, 586, 588, 721, 791, 793, 830, 1017
Tierney, G. 83, 88, 371, 379, 426, 514, 519, 538, 542, 955, 956
Titchfield, Marquis of, 42
Thornton, R. 480, 821, 834, 864, 1014
Tyrwhitt, T. 899
V
Vansittart, G. 1013
Vansittart, N. 158, 165, 448, 489, 504, 538, 585, 587, 588, 626, 635, 638, 903, 922, 949
W
Wallace, T. 41, 110, 118, 119, 400, 470, 555
Walpole, General, 780
Ward, R. 634
Wellesley, Sir A. 863,
Whitbread, S. 24, 30,
Wickham, W. 97
Wilberforce, W. 70, 124, 337, 347, 424, 425, 455, 483, 499, 832, 921, 924, 949, 1001
Williams, Sir R. 72
Windham, W. 20, 48, 124, 131, (Mr. Secretary), 357, 358, 368, 446, 462, 465, 501, 652, 754, 780, 830, 833, 848, 942, 947
Wrottesley, Sir J. 116, 866, 922, 948
Wynne, Sir W. W. 722
Wynne, C. 139, 150, 154, 484, 485, 536, 555
Y
Yorke, C. 560, 715, 777, 783, 789, 790
Young, Sir W. 88, 584, 599, 722, 805, 839, 1022