COBBETT'S
Parliamentary Debates,
DURING THE
FIRST SESSION OF THE FOURTH PARLIAMENT
OF THE
UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT-BRITAIN AND IRELAND,
AND OF THE
KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN THE TWENTY-FIRST,
Appointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-second day of June, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Seven, in the Forty-Seventh Year of the Reign of King GEORGE the THIRD.
VOL. IX 20
During the First Session of the Fourth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom of Great Britain the Twenty-First, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-second Day of June, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Seven, in the Forty-seventh Year of the Reign of His GEORGE the Third.
565
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, June 22, 1807.
This being the day appointed for the meeting of the New Parliament, the Lord Chancellor came to the house at two o'clock, and being seated on the woolsack, immediately rose and said, "My lords, I have to acquaint you, that his majesty, not thinking fit to attend in person this day, has been pleased to issue a commission under the great seal, empowering certain commissioners, named therein, to open and hold this present parliament." The lords commissioners then present, namely, the archbishop of Canterbury, the lord chancellor, the earl of Aylesford, and lord Hawkesbury, being robed, and having taken their seats in front of the throne, Mr. Quarme, the yeoman usher of the black rod, was deputed to order the attendance of the commons; a number of whom forth with appeared, preceded by the clerks of that house.—The commission was then read, and the lord chancellor spoke as follows:—"My lords, and gentlemen of the house of commons; We have it in command from his majesty, to let you know, that his majesty will, as soon as the members of both houses shall be sworn, declare to you the causes of his calling this parliament; and it being necessary that a Speaker of the house of commons should be first chosen, it is his majesty's pleasure, that you, gentlemen of the house of commons, repair to the place where you are to sit, and there proceed to the choice of some proper person to be your Speaker; and that you present such person here to-morrow, at three o'clock, for his majesty's royal appro-
566
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, June 22.
[CHOICE OF A SPEAKER]
About two o'clock, the attendance of the commons, at the bar of the house of lords, was commanded in a message by the black rod. About 200 members, who had been previously, sworn in by the lord steward of the household, according to custom, in the Long Gallery, went up immediately, and having received his majesty's command, signified by the lord chancellor, to elect a Speaker, returned, and shortly after proceeded to the exercise of that privilege in the usual form.
Mr. Yorke rose
and addressing himself to Mr. Ley, the senior clerk, said, that the house was now called upon to exercise one of its most antient and valuable privileges, in electing, from among its members, a proper person to discharge the functions of its Speaker; functions always important to the maintenance of order and decorum within its own walls, and the execution of which was at the same time most essential, towards obtaining for the proceedings of the house, the respect and sanction of the community abroad. Some apology was perhaps necessary, for his presuming to offer himself to the house on this occasion, which implied an assumption, that the person whom he should recommend as the most fit and proper, to discharge the arduous duties annexed to the chair, should immediately appear to the house to possess in a pre-eminent degree
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Mr. Bankes rose
and addressed the house thus:—Sir, I never rose with more satisfaction to second any motion than I now do that which has just been submitted to you; because I am sure I am speaking the unanimous sentiments of those I address, when I say, that I am persuaded nothing could conduce so much to the dignity of this house, and the general interests of the country, as the placing such a person as Mr. Abbot in that chair, which he has already repeatedly filled with so much honour. As I speak in the hearing of many of those members who formerly sat in this house, it may be thought, that, as to them, it is totally unnecessary to enlarge; but there are now many amongst us who had not formerly a seat here, and therefore I hope they will excuse me for telling them, that there is no
569
Mr. Cateraft.
—Sir, I never rose with more pleasure in this house, than I now feel in rising to express my concurrence in this motion. I have witnessed, in common with many others now present, the great talents, the industry, and becoming conduct of that right hon. gent., whose character and qualifications are now the subjects of discussion. He has formerly filled that chair in such a manner, that I think I should not be doing justice to my own feelings, if I did not say, that I do not know of any one individual so well qualified to fill that dignified and honourable situation, as that right hon. gent. In saying thus much of him I
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Mr. William Smith
gave his hearty concurrence to the motion, and had great satisfaction in seeing recalled to the chair a gentleman who had acquitted himself in such a manner in the public and private duties of the office, as to prove himself possessed of the best disposition as well as the most perfect ability to fill it in the most beneficial manner. The discharge of the public duties of the chair in the house was a matter that came under the observation of every member. He should, therefore, say nothing on that head, though he believed there was the most ample room for commendation; but,
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Mr. Abbot
then rose. He said, the proposition which his right hon. friend had submitted to the house as its first act, so far as it concerned the magnitude of the duties annexed to the chair, received his fullest concur
573
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
availed himself of the usage of the house, to offer to the Speaker, not his congratulations, but the unanimous contratulations of the house of commons, and the unanimous congratulations of the public. The feelings of the friendship with which the Speaker had long honoured him, were alone sufficient to make him rejoice to see him again restored to a situation, which from every consideration, public and private, must be as desirable to him as it was honourable. But it was not so much from private considerations, as from a sense of the importance of the duties of the office, and of the peculiar qualifications to discharge them, that he exulted in the present appointment to the chair, to which the Speaker's former conduct in it gave additional lustre. The proper object of congratulation, was, not the Speaker, but the house, whose good fortune in providing so amply for the respectability, and utility of its presidency, could not be too highly estimated. On the first occasion on which the Speaker had been called to the chair, he had made the same modest comparison between the duties of the office and his sense of his own abilities to discharge them. To compare his feelings on that occasion, and on the present, was a thing that could scarcely be abstained from. The statement then offered of the arduous duties of the office, and of the incapacity, as the Speaker had been pleased to call it, of the individual to perform them, was then subject to the test of a severe criticism. There was fresh in the memory of the house the conduct of a predecessor in the chair, who in a time deeply marked with the violence of party conflicts, had so conducted himself as to acquire the unanimous approbation of men, who scarcely agreed in any thing else. Lord Sidmouth, the person to whom he alluded, was supposed to have possessed every quality which the idea of a perfect Speaker of the house of commons comprehended. It was enough to say, that on the comparison with him, the present Speaker was not found in any sense wanting. The dignity, authority, and utility of the character of the chair was as fully supported as at any former
574
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 23.
At three o'clock, the lords commissioners took their seats, and immediately sent the usher of the black rod to desire the attendance of the house of commons, with their Speaker elect, in the house of peers, to present him for his majesty's approbation.—In a few minutes, the commons, with Mr. Abbot at their head, attended at the bar.—Mr. Abbot then addressed the lords commissioners to the following effect:— "I have to acquaint your lordships, that in obedience to his majesty's commands, and in virtue of their ancient rights, his faithful commons have proceeded to the election of a Speaker, and that their choice has once more fallen upon me. Deeply penetrated with the most heartfelt gratitude for this new mark of their confidence and good opinion, and in humble compliance with their wish, I now present myself at your bar, and have humbly to pray, that his majesty will graciously allow them to re-consider their choice, and to elect a worthier person.
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The Lord Chancellor
—Mr. Abbot, the lords appointed by his majesty's commission, have it in command from his majesty, to signify, that his majesty, fully persuaded Of the wisdom and prudence of his faithful commons, is perfectly satisfied with the choice they have made, and convinced of your ample and tried sufficiency to execute all the duties of that office. We, therefore, by the authority of his majesty's commission, do allow and confirm the choice they have made of you as their Speaker
Mr. Abbot.
—My lords, I feel deeply penetrated with gratitude for this fresh mark of his majesty's grace and favour, which I receive with all due humility and resignation. It now becomes my duty, in the name and in behalf of the commons to lay claim to all their ancient and undoubted rights and privileges, to which, by the usage of the constitution of parliament, they are entitled; more especially that their persons, servants, and estates, be free from arrest and molestation; that they may enjoy liberty of speech in their debates; and have free access to his majesty's royal person, whenever occasion may require; and that all their proceedings may receive from his majesty the most favourable construction; and that, where any involuntary errors may seem to have been incurred, the blame, I hope, will be wholly imputed to myself.
The Lord Chancellor
—Mr. Speaker, We have it in command from his majesty to say, that his majesty allows and confirms to his faithful commons, all those immunities and privileges they claim, and that in as full and ample a manner as they have hitherto been granted and allowed by his majesty, or by any of his royal predecessors. As to any apprehension you may entertain of incurring any errors, we are commanded to inform you, that his majesty sees no ground for any such apprehensions; and that consequently, we may moreover acquaint you, that any thing coming from you or his majesty's faithful commons, will receive from his majesty the most favourable interpretation.—The Commons then withdrew, and the commissioners retired to unrobe. After which the clerk proceeded to swear in the Peers.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, June 23.
The House having assembled about three o'clock, the yeoman usher of the black rod appeared at the table to desire their attendance in the house of peers, with their speaker elect, to present him for his majes-
576
The Speaker
addressed the house as follows:—I have to acquaint the house, that I have been in the house of lords, where his majesty, by his royal commission, has been graciously pleased to approve and confirm the choice of this house, in the election they have made of me, to be their Speaker; and that I there laid claim, by humble petition to his majesty, for all our ancient and undoubted rights, in regard to the privileges of this house; and more especially, safety from arrest and all molestation for the members of this house, and their servants; freedom of speech in debate; and that all our proceedings may receive the most favourable construction. His majesty has been pleased to concur in granting to this house the whole of these privileges, as fully, and in as ample a manner, as ever was done by any of his royal predecessors. And now, gentlemen, placed in this chair, by the favour of the house, for the fourth time, I have to repeat my humble and heartfelt acknowledgements to you for the highest honour that any of its members can possibly receive. In my endeavours to execute this trust, I must entreat the continual assistance of the house in support of its own honour and authority, and for maintaining order in its proceedings; assuring you, at the same time, that it is my determination to act, in all matters of business, with the strictest impartiality, and the utmost regularity and dispatch. I have only now to remind the house, that the first thing to be done, upon the present occasien, is, for the members to take the necessary and usual oaths of supremacy, abjuration, and qualification, as by law required.—The house was accordingly so occupied during the remainder of the sitting.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, June 24, and Thursday, June 25.
On these days the lord chancellor took his seat on the woolsack at three, and the clerk continued to swear in the peers till four.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, June 24, and Thursday, June 25.
On these days the speaker came to the house at one. Several members present took the oaths, and made and subscribed the declaration, and took and subscribed the oath of Abjuration, according to the laws made for those purposes; and such of the said members as are by law required to de-
577
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, June 26.
[THE LORDS COMMISSIONERS' SPEECH]
—This day at three o'clock, his grace the archbishop of Canterbury, the lord chancellor, the earl of Aylesford, and earl Dartmouth, being robed, took their seats on the bench in front of the thione, and Mr. Quarme, yeoman usher of the black rod; was then dispatched to order the attendance of the commons, who forthwith, with the Speaker at their head, appeared at the bar. The royal commission, authorising certain peers therein named or any three or more of them, to open the parliament, was then read. After which, the Lord Chancellor delivered the following speech to both houses:
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
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"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
My Lords and Gentlemen,
579
The Earl of Mansfield rose
to move the address. At a crisis like the present, he wished it had fallen to the lot of some noble lord more able and experienced than himself, to move an address to his majesty, he felt himself incompetent to the task and hoped to meet with the indulgence of the house. He did not come forward upon this occasion with any party views, and whilst he disdained to be the servile tool of any administration, so, on the other hand, he was equally inimical to a systematic opposition to the measures of government, whether those measures were injurious or conducive to the public good. Some parts, however, of his majesty's speech, had struck his mind very forcibly, and upon those he would briefly deliver his opinion. The circumstances which occurred respecting the proposed concessions to the Catholics, and the differences which on that occasion took place between his majesty and his late ministers, rendered it impossible, that those ministers could remain in office, and rendered an appeal to the people absolutely necessary. He rejoiced at the effect of that appeal, he rejoiced that addresses had poured in from every quarter of the country, evincing the most zealous and steady loyalty and attachment to his majesty's government, and to the constitution of the country, and whilst he regretted that any of those addresses should convey a censure upon many eminent characters, he should have still more regretted if no such addresses had been presented. It was greatly to be lamented that a subject should have been agitated, which of all others was the most likely to inflame and irritate men's ,minds; he hoped that that irritation would now he allayed and that union and concert would invigorate the hands of government, and strengthen the country. In alluding to one topic mentioned in his,majesty's speech; namely, the unfortunate events which had
580
Lord Rolle rose
to second it. His lordship declared, that he came forward uninfluenced by any party considerations, and solely from motives of loyalty and attachment to his majesty. He condemned the conduct
581
Earl Fortescue rose
for the purpose of moving an amendment, when he considered the manner in which the last parliament was dissolved, and the speech which had been now put into the mouth of his majesty, his lordship said he could not avoid expressing his greatest surprize at the conduct of his majesty's ministers. The last parlialiament, beyond any other, had teemed, with measures of the greatest importance to the country, many of which were interrupted by its sudden and abrupt dissolution—a dissolution which had also been productive of the greatest inconvenience and distress to numerous individuals, from the interruption given to a great number of private bills. It had been urged by the supporters of the present ministers, that this inconvenience might be easily remedied by taking up those bills at the stages where they were left; but this operated to establish a principle pregnant with the utmost danger to the country, and he did not believe that the noble and learned lord upon the woolsack would defend the principle of resorting upon such an occasion, to a suspension of their standing orders. He could not forget the solemn mockery with which the Scots Judges were ordered to attend at the bar of the house, when it must be well known to his majesty's ministers that the bar would be, as it was, closed against them by the king's commissioners coming to the house to prorogue the parliament. Viewing all the circumstances under which the last parliament was dissolved, he could only consider that dissolution as a strong and arbitrary measure—a measure to which those ministers alone were entitled to resort who possessed the confidence of the country. What pretensions had the present ministers to the
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Lord Boringdon
said, he was sorry to find himself compelled to differ from the noble lord who had just sat down, and for whom, as a friend, he had the highest esteem. His noble friend had directed a considerable portion of his argument against the late dissolution of parliament. He did not wish to go at length into the circumstances which
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Lord Holland
said, he felt some difficulty upon the present occasion, not in answering the arguments of noble lords on the other side, but, after what he had heard, in doing it with that decorum which he owed to their lordships. If the arguments of the noble lord who had just sat down, were to be adopted as the rule of conduct in that house, then all freedom of debate was at an end, and their lordships would have nothing to do but to re-echo every speech which the ministers for the time being chose to put in to the mouth of his majesty. Such doctrines were the most dangerous and unconstitutional he had ever heard. Be objected also most strongly, to the introduction of
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argumentum ad hominem
argumentum ad hominem
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*
*
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590
Lord Mulgrave
observed, that the great object of censure from the other side of the house, was the dissolution of parliament, the legality of which the noble lord (Holland) had questioned But this dissolution was not without good reasons; reasons which did not exist when the former dissolution in October last had taken place. Measures of the greatest moment, brought forward by the late ministers, had been passed by the parliament which was then dissolved, and these also incompatible, in some degree, with former measures agreed to by the same parliament. Ministers had not then to fear any very formidable opposition, nor any factious Tavern Meetings, to concert schemes to obstruct the operations of government; yet they dissolved that parliament. But before the late dissolution it was suspected that the noble lords on the other side, and their friends, would not shew an equal degree of moderation, and as far as experience had yet gone, the suspicion appeared to have been well-founded, and a dissolution became advisable. What was the ground of the dissolution in October? Was it the failure of the negotiation? Disgraceful and ridiculous as the conduct of that negotiation had been throughout, yet it was not perhaps so bad as people apprehended it was, when they saw that the expedient of a dissolution was resorted to. The noble lord then proceeded to compare the dissolution of 1784 with the late one. The dissolution of 1784 was founded on the best reasons of any he had heard of, except the last. The circumstances were, in a great measure, similar. The house of commons had then passed a measure pregnant with danger to the constitution, and when the king in consequence, thought proper to change his ministers. The junction of parties, formerly hostile to each other, enabled them to overpower the government. An appeal to the people then became necessary. Though in the late parliament the ministers had a majority, yet the opposite party had a number sufficient to embarrass the operations of government. A dissolution therefore became advisable. The cases were nearly similar, with this exception, however, that they on the other side who approved of the dissolution of 1784, censured the last. The cry of private influence had then been set up, and the noble
591
Lord Holland
in explanation, said, that, what he had stated was, that the mention of the failures was evidently introduced as a censure on the late government, and therefore made his majesty censure his own acts. He had not deprecated but courted inquiry into whole conduct of the late ministry. He had only said, that the present censure was premature and inconsistent.
Lord Erskine
said, that the observations of his noble friend (lord Holland) had called to his recollection the part which he himself
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in terrorem
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Earl Grosvenor
observed, that the king's speech, instead of being previously read at the Cockpit as formerly, was now read at private meetings, so that noble lords could not be prepared, and therefore he thought it might not be improper to adjourn for twenty-four hours, in order to have time to consider the speech. He adverted to the conduct of the ministers since they came into power. Their first act was to have recourse to the assistance of lord Melville, notwithstanding the resolutions on the Journals of the house of commons. But that and other things dwindled almost to nothing in comparison with the unconstitutional act of dissolving the parliament. The present momentous crisis required a firm, an able, and an efficient ministry. Whether the present ministers came under that description, parliament must determine. But he thought they afforded but an unfavourable specimen of their future conduct, by shrinking from the responsibility of having advised the dismissal of the late ministers. It was a constitutional maxim, founded in wisdom, that the king could do no wrong; for if he could, what scenes of bloodshed must ensue before he could be brought to do justice. The parliament, he said, had done nothing that could require a dissolution. The reason alledged for it was, the expediency of taking the sense of the people. That, he contended, was the late ministers, and instanced the great county of York. His lordship then adverted to the accusations against the late ministers, for opposing the government. One would think, he observed, on hearing these, that this was some despotic government. The king had his prerogative, but the houses of lords and commons had their prerogative also; and there seldom had been an occasion on which it was more requisite for them to exercise it than the present.
Lord Sidmouth
observed, that if he had hopes before that unanimity would prevail on this occasion, he must now own he was afraid he was disappointed. But he did feel that unanimity was so important to the interests of the country in the present situation of affairs, that unless the address expressed opinions in which he could not concur, or contained unfounded accusations, he should feel himself bound in duty to support it. But, if noble lords really thought that
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597
The Earl of Selkirk
declared his concurrence in the observations made by the noble viscount who had just sat down, and thought that the late dissolution of parliament could not be reprobated on any principle that would not equally apply to that of last year. The inconvenience arising from a dissolution must be balanced by the strength of the reasons which required it. The noble and learned lord (Erskine) in comparing the present case with that of 1784, had alleged that there was no ground for the late dissolution, because the house of commons had not, in the late case, come to issue with the government on any particular question; but a very large proportion of the house had concurred in the expression of principles subversive of the constitutional prerogatives of the crown. Principles had been laid down
598
The Earl of Rosslyn
declared, that after the manner in which all arguments, and every attempt at argument, had been already answered; after the luminous speech which their lordships had heard from his noble and learned friend (lord Erskine), it Would be impossible for him to add any thing further upon the subject. The question which was then under their lordships' consideration, however, was of such importance, that, in justice to himself he was compelled to declare his sentiments, and not suffer the question to pass with only a silent vote from him. A noble viscount (lord Sidmouth) for whom he entertained the highest respect, had observed, that if it was justifiable to dissolve one parliament at any period short of its
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The Earl of Buckinghamshire
maintained, that the conduct of his majesty's present ministers was strictly justifiable in having recommended the dissolution of the late parliament. The catholics would now see, that notwithstanding their cause was supported by a powerful and respectable party in this country, yet that the opinion of their sovereign was against them, and that in that opinion he was supported by the general-sentiments of the people.
Lord Grenville
said, he had no doubt, that the authors of the speech that day delivered to their lordships were the authors or advisers of the dissolution of parliament. It appeared, that the authors of the speech bad some idea of shrinking from responsibility, because they had not only been guilty of a violation of the ancient forms of the Constitution, but had that night remained silent on the subject of their misconduct. A noble lord had said, that on examining the Journals of the house, he had not been able to discover, in the course of 25 years, more than three amendments to the address. But that noble lord had not explained the cause why so few amendments had been brought forward in the course of that period. He would, how-
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erratum
Lord Sidmouth rose
to explain. He said that he had read over the paragraph alluded to by the noble baron with the greatest care and attention, and he did not find one sentence which appeared to convey blame on the advisers of that expedition.
The Lord Chancellor
persisted that the
606
The Earl of Lauderdale
reprobated the late dissolution additionally for the critical time in which it took place, which aggravated its injurious consequences. His lordship took occasion to advert to the indignity which had been offered to his royal highness the Prince of Wales, in the proceedings on the Scots Peers election, when the annunciation of his proxies were not received in the customary respectful manner. Had he fortunately been there, he should have noticed such a pointed omission in a proper manner: he added, that disrespect could not be shewn to any one branch of the royal family, without at the same time reflecting on the august head of it.
Lord Hawkesbury
defended what he had
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Contents
56
Not Contents
131
Proxies
11
29
67
160
Majority for the Original Address
93
List of the Minority.
Duke of Gloucester
Earl of Clanricarde
Grafton
Conyingham
St.Alban's
Lauderdale
Devon
Darnley
Bedford
Moira
Argyll
Besborough
608
Marquis of Winchester
Ossory
Stafford
Viscount Hereford
Headfort
Anson
Earl of Derby
Baron De Clifford
Suffolk
Say and Sele
Thanet
St. John
Essex
King
Searborough
Monson
Albermarle
Blandford
Jersey
Stawell
Cholmondeley
Holland
Tankerville
Southampton
Cowper
Foley
Shaftsbury
Hawke
Fitzwilliam
Somers
Guildford
Braybroke
Hardwicke
Grenville
Spencer
Auckland
Leicester
Dundas
Grosvenor
Yarborough
Fortescue
Cawdor
Dorchester
Carrington
Carnarvon
Lilford
St.Vincent
Clifden
Rosslyn
Erskine
Oxford
Ponsonby
Breadalbane
Bishop of Oxford
Luc
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, June 26.
At three o'clock Mr. Quarme yeoman usher of the black rod, appeared at the bar, and in the name of the lords authorised by virtue of his majesty's commission, required the immediate attendance of the commons in the house of peers, to hear the commission read. The Speaker, and nearly all the members present, attended. On their return, the Speaker having informed the house, that the clerk had, according to custom, prepared a bill to prevent clandestine outlawry, the same was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time. The grand committees for religion, for courts of justice, and for trade, and the committee of privileges were appointed. The customary resolutions relative to the term of limitation for petitions complaining of undue returns, and the standing orders of the house were read and agreed to.
THE LORD COMMISSIONERS' SPEECH.]—The Speaker
then acquainted the house, that that house had been in the house of peers, where the lords authorised by his majesty's commission had delivered a speech to both houses of parliament, of which, to prevent mistakes, he had obtained a copy. (See p. 577)—After the Speaker had read the speech,
Lord Newark rose
and addressed the house as follows:—In rising, sir, to move an Address of thanks to his majesty for his most
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Mr. Hall
seconded the motion for the address. Although the noble lord had anticipated, him in most points, he would shortly submit to the house the considerations which induced him to do so. Parliament had been assembled at an important crisis: the country looked with extreme anxiety to the result of their deliberations. They were called upon to discuss subjects of the utmost consequence; .and by their wisdom and judgment to give effect and direction to the exertions of the people, as well as to secure and augment their constitutional rights. They were also called upon to express their sense of the firmness with which, under peculiar difficulties, his majesty had asserted the just rights of the constitution, and of those establishments which were the foundation of our civil and religious liberties. The prerogative which his majesty had recently exercised, was one of the most important that belonged to the crown; and the propriety of its exercise could be estimated only by a deliberate consideration of the necessity, by which it was demanded. Under a due sense of political and religious considerations, his
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veto
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Lord Howick
declared, that before he required of the gentlemen opposite, some exposition of their opinions as to the situation of the country at home and abroad, and something in explanation of those—what should, he call them? charges and insinuations; there were in His Majesty's Speech itself, as well as in the speeches of the gentlemen opposite, and particularly of the last, passages so extraordinary, that even in this stage of the debate, he could not defer calling the attention of the house to them, arid demanding the justice, which his majesty's late ministers had a right to claim, namely; that if those passages were meant as charges, they should be fairly brought forward; that if as insinuations, they should be made clear. The noble lord by whom the address wan proposed, and the hon. gent. by whom it was seconded, had concluded their speeches in the same way in which his majesty's speech concluded—and here once for all he begged to be considered as deeming his majesty's speech the speech of the Ministers by whom it was advised, and who alone were responsible for its contents; and, however severe the expressions which he might find it his duty to use on this subject, he trusted they would not be miscon-
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
in reply, observed, that, whatever might have beeen the manner in which his majesty's ministers had conic into power, the speech of the noble lord had shewn that it would not meet with his approbation, though he had declared that, in consequence of the state of public affairs, he should give his support to any measures that might be brought forward for the national interest From the manner in which the noble lord had concluded his speech, however, he did not think that he took the proper course to carry that declaration into effect. As the
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Mr Windham
offered himself to the attention of the house, in order to bring back the question to its real grounds. They were all agreed, as it was natural they should be, with respect to the prerogative of his majesty to dissolve his parliament. The hon. gent. who seconded the address, therefore, had given himself unnecessary trouble in discussing a question of which nobody entertained a doubt. His noble friend (lord Howick) in quoting the opinion of lord Somers, that the dissolution of parliament during a session was illegal, had adverted to that authority, to shew, that if such a lawyer entertained such an opinion, the dissolution of parliament during a session ought not to be resorted to without great justification. That, was the argument of his noble friend, and he maintained that it was a sound one. The question then before the house was, whether
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vox populi, vox dei,
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General Craufurd
spoke in justification of the change of ministers. The late ministers had brought his majesty before his late parliament to answer for that change, and a great portion of that parliament, though very far from a majority, having taken part against his majesty, an appeal to the people to decide between his majesty and his late ministers, was rendered absolutely necessary. The people had proved true to the call, and he hoped the house of commons would acquit itself duly and honourably to the crown and to the people. He had supported the late ministers from a high opinion of their talents; he however condemned them for attempting to force themselves on the crown, by compelling the crown to dismiss them. Oh! sublime patriotism, ending in political suicide, and confessed self-murder of their body politic!
Sir Henry. Mildmay rose
to vindicate his character from the aspersions which the noble lord (Howick) had cast upon it. The noble lord ought in justice to have communicated to him his intention of countenancing the scandalous libels uttered against him and his hon. friend (Mr. S. Bourne) in the newspapers. Without such notice it was not handsome to mention them seriously in the house. He gave notice, as it had been already his intention to do this night, that on Monday he would submit to the house the whole of the circumstances of the transaction alluded to between him and the government. The result of the inquiry would shew, that there was no foundation for the scandalous insinuations uttered against them.
Mr. Denis Browne
said that he was not a little surprised to hear the noble lord and the right hon. gent. dub themselves champions of the cause of the Roman catholics, for bringing forward a measure, which those who called themselves the representatives of that body, declared they would not thank them for; and which measure, such as it was, they had openly abandoned for the declared, avowed purpose, and for no other, of retaining their places and their power, thereby forsaking all claims to independence as members of parliament. The propriety of the late dissolution of parliament, which had been so much dwelt upon this night, appeared to him to be easily resolved and understood, The late ministers had dissolved the parliament they had found when they
642
Lord Cochrane
in a maiden speech, observed, that if any thing could tend to open the eyes of the people as to the mode in which elections were influenced by government, enough had been said to that effect this night, by the two parties into which the house was divided. He alluded to the nomination of the 300 surveyors of taxes, and the appointment of 100 Inspecting Officers. What the real motive of appointing these officers was, whether for influencing the elections or not he would not say. But this much he knew, they were appointed before parliament was dissolved, at least he had been told by one gentleman before that period, that he was to be one of those Field Officers. However, after the mutual charges and recriminations which had been made, he thought there could be little doubt as to the motives and object of these appointments. But he should ever deprecate every interference of ministers in election concerns. He hoped, that as each party charged the other with making jobs with a view to influence the elections, the conduct of both, in this respect, would be inquired into. He hoped some third party would arise, which would keep aloof from selfish interest, and sinecure places and pensions. Unless they acted upon different principles he could not honestly support either of the present parties. Both the address and the amendment seemed to him objectionable in some points. He disapproved of pre-
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Mr. Grattan rose
and spoke to the following effect:—I shall, Mr. Speaker, consider the present question in two points of view, both as it regards the Catholics of Ireland, and as it affects his Majesty's late ministers. In Speaking of their conduct, I cannot suppress the feelings I entertained for them while in office; neither can I be silent on the circumstances which led to, and attended their dismissal. I approve of that ministry, because they preferred their principles to their places. I approve of them because they constitutionally refused to be restricted by an unconstitutional pledge. I approve of them because they were sincere in their wishes to create national strength, by national unanimity. I approve of them because they endeavoured to unite the people, and dissolve a party; and I most approve of them because they wisely ceased to prosecute the justified claims of the Irish Catholics, when they were convinced the prosecution was highly inexpedient. I say, his majesty's late ministers acted wisely in introducing a measure, which in its origin, appeared highly practicable, and in withdrawing it, when they were satisfied it was for the time impracticable. They proposed it with a view to conquer, and they abstained from precipitately pressing it, when they were unfortunately disappointed in that expectation. To this dilemma they were reduced, that if the bill was expedient, why not introduce it? and being expedient, why abandon it? [a laugh from the ministerial benches.] The hon. gentlemen on the opposite side may laugh, but I contend, that the true view of legislation and policy, is not to push even a good principle too far; when there is no opportunity of effecting the object, and where the evils arising from the failure, must materially detract from the benefits of even ultimate success. But, when I lay down this position, I feel it my duty strenuously to oppose that principle, which, at a moment when we are surrounded with enemies, and assailed with dangers, at a moment when our best and surest safeguard exists in the unanimity of the people, would defeat the benefits of that unanimity—would, at the same moment that it divided the publ
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Lord Milton
declared that he should consider himself guilty of a dereliction of his duty to the great and independent body of freeholders who delegated to him the important trust of representing them, if he suffered a question which, brought the conduct of his majesty's ministers into consideration to pass without his decided and most unequivocal animadversion. The right hon. chancellor of the exchequer, had cavilled and endeavoured to prove, that the period when himself and his colleagues had dared, to advice his majesty to dissolve the last parliament, was the least likely to interrupt the public business. But the, charge against them was not only the interruption which the public business received by that measure; it went further; it arraigned them of postponing that measure, until they had ascertained their strength and then recurring to a dissolution, because they were unable to meet the support of an independent
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Mr R. S. Dundas
hoped the house would excuse him, if he was unwilling to suffer a moment to pass without replying to what had just fallen from the noble lord. He contended that the acquittal in the impeachment from which lord Melville had not
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Mr. Bathurst
would confine himself entirely to the consideration of what the present ministers had done; the question of their appointment having been already decided. He would judge his majesty's ministers by their acts, and the only act of theirs that could come now under consideration was the dissolution of parliament. This act he thought justifiable under the peculiar circumstances of the case, and it was enough for him that it was justifiable, to induce him to vote in favour of the address and against the amendment.
Lord Pollington
was sorry to hear the name of the sovereign brought forward in the discussions of that house, a thing which should never be done without absolute necessity. He thought the late dissolution a very great interruption to private as well as public business in that house; and he took occasion to observe, without saying who was the cause of it, that the cry of "No Popery," was an infamous one.
General Hope
adverted to what had been said on the subject of lord Melville's trial. That noble lord had been punished, and twice unjustly. He was punished before trial, which nobody could dispute was unjust. He was punished after he was acquitted, which was equally unjust; this he meant to refer to what had been said of that noble lord, under the authority of the late administration. He thought that the most prominent, as well as the most beautiful part of our constitution, was the administration of justice under it; but even that had not restrained the party rage of the late administration. The impeachment of that noble lord had been carried on by party, aided by no inconsiderable share of personal vanity;
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The Speaker
reminded the hon. general that he had transgressed the boundaries of order, in imputing unworthy motives to any hon. member of that house.
Mr. Croker
was happy to find the address now before the house unobjectionable, for it had been objected to, and the amendment was brought forward on the part of the late administration, to censure the conduct of the present; when they, the late administration, dared not bring forward any one measure of their own while in power; for this opinion he appealed to the house, whether that was not the view of the motion for this amendment, whether it did not relate purely to what passed formerly, and which, whether right or wrong, could not now be altered, and therefore there could be no good in discussing it? And yet, such was the course which was recommended to us by opposition, at a time when the map of Europe was only another word almost for the map of France; thus it was proposed that the time of the house should be taken up in hearing contests for places and power. Much had been said about the secret advisers of the crown; he wished to know whether it was to be contended that it was unconstitutional for the king ever to have any adviser who was unknown to the house of commons; or would they call his majesty to the bar of that house on any subject in which his adviser was unknown? If that was constitutional doctrine, it was unknown to him. Conduct had been observed that was infamous, as a noble lord had elegantly expressed it. Now, as to Ireland, he would venture to say, that as to political Matters, that description was much more applicable to the late than to the present administration. And as to what had been said of the family at Wexford, whose name, from the pronunciation of the noble lord, he did not understand, he would invite the noble lord to look at the last election but one for Wexford, and there he would find the conduct of the late administration in its true light. I will ask, said the hon. gent., the noble lord not to interfere in any of our concerns in Ireland; we are friends of peace, and I therefore advocate the non-advocating of the noble lord. As to what had been said by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Grattan) he had told the house that ministers, on the subject of the catholics, must either abandon their arguments or abandon the army. There was no occasion to
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Mr. Stuart Wortley
took notice of what the noble lord (Milton) had advanced concerning his constituents. That noble lord had impressed the house with an idea that the majority of the landed proprietors, and of the commercial interest in the county of York, as stated by the noble lord, was in favour of the late administration: though the noble lord had obtained a majority, it arose from the misconception of the clothiers, with respect to the conduct of one of the candidates, Mr. Lascelles. But surely this was no proof whatever that the late ministers were more popular than their successors.
Mr. William Smith
agreed with the right hon. gent. (Mr Bathurst) that the question lay within a very narrow compass, but differed from him in his view of it. He did not think that the question lay, in the first instance, between the king and his ministers, though the present ministers had made it a colour to answer their own views throughout, the country. In saying this, he had no occasion, on his own part, to quarrel with them for the dissolution, because it afforded him an opportunity of proving again the high opinion which his constituents entertained of his consistency and opposition to the system supported by the present minister. He asked the present administration what they had made of their cry of "No Popery" at Bristol, Liverpool, Westminster, and, Middlesex? He was decidedly in favour of the amendment.
Mr. Bathrust
explained, and said that he
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Mr. Ryder
said, that when his right hon. friend, the present chancellor of the exchequer, consented to continue as attorney-general when Mr. Pitt came last into administration, he did so under an express stipulation that the catholic measure should be brought forward, he should oppose it. Gentlemen on the other side of the house complained of the manner in which the Catholic bill had been opposed; it was their own fault for bringing it forward; they produced every thing they now complained of. As. to the late administration, as a body, he had to observe, that some of them were great men, but, they were made up of discordant materials: like those of 1784, they promised a good deal, depended upon themselves much, but produced but little, and they met much the same fate, their dismissal being followed by a dissolution of parliament; with regard to the leading member of the late administration, the late Mr. Fox; of his talents there was but one opinion; of their application, a great variety. In opposition, he had done much mischief. In government he might have done much good; but really, with the exception of the Slave Trade bill, and the New Plan of Finance, which was a, good measure, although the defects of it were numerous, he knew of no public measure that reflected honour on the late administration.
Lord Temple
said, the question before the House had been amply discussed; and he would only make a few observations in vindication of the late Administration. The cry against the Catholic bill had been raised by the present ministers for the purpose of injuring those who projected it. How far that cry had succeeded would be proved. He should, however, think the house disgraced itself if it did not approve of the late ministers, as no fair pretence had been stated for the imputations cast on them.
Lord Henry Petty rose
and said, before he offered to explain some particulars relative to the late administration, he felt anxious to hear what reason could be assigned for the late act of dissolving the parliament without any apparent cause; but no satisfactory observations had transpired on that subject. The Catholic bill had been discussed last session of parliament, and if any animosity had been excited in the country it was by the character given of that bill, not by the bill itself. It would occur that no cry had been raised against the bill when it
655
Mr. Canning
replied to the principal arguments which had been argued in support of the amendment. He alluded to the different accounts which had been given of the late change of administration. At one time, the honourable gentlemen stated, that they bad voluntarily retired from office, and at another, that they had waited until they were forced to abandon their places. They might choose which of these cases they liked best, but he could not allow them to take to themselves both all the grace of resignation, and all the grievance of dismissal. The latter, however, was the event. They had stuck with great obstinacy to their situations, and a main objection which seemed to be urged against some of his friends was, that they wanted that first quality of great statesmen—tenacity of place. In reply to the objection of a noble lord (Cochrane) in alluding to Constantinople and Egypt, that the address seemed to imply a censure on his majesty's late ministers, with respect to the distribution of the military and naval force of the country, he observed, that such certainly was not the object of the address. It had merely been intended to state facts with regard to the situation of this country and of Europe. He begged, however, in saying
656
Mr. T. Grenville
replied to the observations of the last speaker, and particularly complained of the insinuations thrown out against tine late administration, with respect to the expeditions to Turkey and Egypt. He remarked, that the opinion which had fallen from the right hon. secretary, respecting the subject of Turkey and Egypt, was very different from that stated by the chancellor of the exchequer. The latter right hon. gent. had disavowed any intention to impute blame on the late administration with regard to those points. The language of the right hon. secretary was however very different. He broadly insinuated censure. This conduct be could not but regard as highly unjustifiable. If no blame was meant, why make the insinuation? He trusted that either no insinuation would be made, or that a direct charge would be brought forward. If a distinct charge of censure was advanced, his friends knew how to meet and refute it.
Mr. Whitbread
observed, that a noble, friend of his (lord Milton) had been spoken of in terms of great asperity, because he alluded to his constituents, and spoke of them, it was said, as if nobody else in the house had constituents. He would ask the right hon. secretary, if he had constituents in the sense in which the word was understood by the noble lord? When the right hon. secretary had, in pursuance of his audacious and unconstitutional threat, sent the members of the last parliament back to their constituents, did he himself venture to appeal to any popular body? The noble secretary of state near him had once represented a populous county in Ireland, and had afterwards been rejected. But it did not appear, with all the anxiety of the present administration to appeal to the sense of the people, that the noble viscount it had thought it advisable to submit his conduct to the judg-
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Sir Arthur Wellesley
declared, that the government of Ireland had not interfered, nor given any instructions to Mr. Ormsby upon this subject: had any improper use been made of that influence, it was unknown to government.
Sir John Newport
said, the letter of Mr. Ormsby was perfectly compatible with the fact, and he called upon the right hon. bart. to deny it if he could. He challenged the right. hon. secretary himself to shew the contrary, and said, that the first object the government was to dispossess him of the confidence of his constituents, but they failed, in this as almost every other effort of a similar nature, and the proof of the fact was, that he had fourscore more votes on his last election, than he has when he was chancellor of the exchequer for that part of the United Kingdom. The abuse of the constitutional power in that country was most scandalous and disgraceful, and the primary object of the government was to carry their point by the worst kind of influence.
For the original Address—
350
Against it———
155
—
Majority for the Ministry
105
658
List of the minority
Abercrombie, hon. J.
Hamilton, lord A.
Adam. Wm.
Hibbert, George
Agar, Capt.
Howard hon. W.
Althorpe, Lord
Howard, Henry
Anson, George
Howick, lord
Antonie, Wm. Lee
Hippisley sir J. C.
Anstruther, sir J.
Hughes, W. L.
Aubrey, sir John
Hurst, R.
Baring, Alex.
Jervoise, C. J.
Baring, Thos.
Jekyll, T.
Barham, J. Foster
Jackson John
Bewicke, Calverley
Jones, Love P.
Bagenell Walter
Kemp, Thos.
Biddulph, R. M.
Kensington, Lord
Bernard, Scrope
Knox, hon. Thos.
Byng, George
Knapp, G.
Bradshaw, hon. C.
Laing, Malcolm
Brand, hon. Thos.
Latouche, D.
Bunbury, sir Chas.
Latouche, R.
Bu
Latouche, J.
Butler, hon. C. H.
Lambe, hon. W.
Calcraft, sir Granby
Lambton, R. J.
Calvert, N.
Lemon, sir W.
Campbell, lord J.
Littleton, hon. W.
Campbell, Col.
Lloyd, J. M.
Cavendish, lord G. H.
Leach, John
Campbell, George
Lushington, S.
Cavendish, Wm.
Laurence, Dr.
Cavendish, G. H. C.
Mackdona
Coke, Thos. Wm.
Markham, J.
Coke Edward
Martin, H.
Combe, H.
Maule, hon. W.
Cowper, hon. S.
Maxwell, W.
Craig, J.
Miller, sir Thos.
Creevey, Thos.
Milbanke, sir R.
Curwen J. C.
Milner, sir Wm.
Cuthbert, R.
Milton, lord
Daly, D. B.
Madocks, W. A.
Dillon, hon. H. A.
Mills, Wm.
Dundas, hon. C. L.
Mahon, lord
Dundas, hon. Maj.
Meade, hon. J.
Dundas, C.
Moore, P.
Dundas, rt. hon. W.
Morpeth, lord
Eden, hon. Wm.
Mostyn, sir Thos.
Elliott, rt. hon. W.
Neville, hon. R.
Euston, Earl
Newport, sir John
Fitzpatrick, R.
North, Dudley
Fitzgerald, lord R. H.
Nugent, sir G.
Flemming, hon. C.J.
O'Callaghen, Col.
Foley, hon. A.
Ord, Wm.
Foley, Col.
Ossulston, Ford
Folkestone, lord
Pierse, Henry
Forbes, lord
Petty lord H.
Frankland, Wm.
Phillips, W.
Fellowes hon. N.
Pollington, lord
Ferguson, General
Pigott, sir A.
Grattan, H.
Pe
Grenville, Thos.
Power, R.
Greenhill, R.
Parnell, Henry
Grenfell, P.
Ponsonby, hon. F.
Halsey, G.
Ponsonby, hon. G.
659
Prettle, hon. Wm.
Templetown, lord
Pym, Francis
Townshend, lord J.
Quin, hon. W.
Tall
Ridley, sir M. W.
Vernon, G. V. V.
Romily, sir S.
Ward, hon. J. W.
Russell, lord, W.
Walpole, hon. G.
Shakespeare, A.
Warrender, sir G.
Shiely, Timothy
Wharton, J.
Savage, F.
Whitbread, S.
Sharpe, R.
Wardle, col.
Shipley, col.
Williams, O.
Smith, W.
Windham, W.
Smith, G.
Western, C. C.
Smith, John
Wynne, sir W. W.
Stanley, lord
Wynne, C. W. W.
Stanley, Thos.
Tellers.
Sommerville, sir M.
Calcraft, J.
Taylor, M. A.
Temple, earl
Taylor, C. W.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, June 27.
[MINUTES] Lord Folkestone
gave notice, that he should on Monday move, that the papers relative to the Affairs of India, commonly called the Oude Papers, be re-printed.—Mr. Lethbridge presented a Petition from Mr. Palmer of the Post Office, praying for public money, as a remuneration for his services. The petition, and also the proceedings of the committee to whom the matter had been referred in the year 1797, were ordered to be printed; and the hon. member gave notice, that he should on Tuesday move for the house to go into a Committee, to take the same into consideration.—Sir S. Romilly presented a petition from 130 persons confined for debt in the King's Bench Prison, 54 of whom were charged in execution, and the remaining 76 on mesne process. They were ready, he said, to give up all their property to their creditors, who refused to consent to their being set at liberty on such terms: 112 of the number had families dependant upon them for support, and the number of their children amounted to 347. The petition prayed for revision of the laws of debtor and creditor. It was his wish not to have presented this petition, because it had been said in another place, that he had it in contemplation to bring in a bill to alter and amend these laws, when, in fact, he had no Such intention. The reason why he did not bring forward such a measure was, that he had not been able to discover any effectual remedy for the very great evil complained of. However, as the petitioners were desirous that he should present their petition to the house, he thought it his duty to comply with their request, though he should nut follow it up with any motion,
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[INDIA BUDGET.]—Mr. Hiley Addington
seeing his hon. friend (Mr. R. Dundas) in his place, wished to know whether it was his intention to bring forward the accounts of the East India Company this session. If so, he trusted that he would bring them forward on as early a day as possible.
Mr. R. Dundas
replied that it was certainly his intention to bring forward the accounts of the East India Company this session, and that no time should be unnecessarily lost. At the same time he begged to remind the right hon. gent. that for some years back, these accounts had been one year in arrears. It was his intention to endeavour to bring up that arrear in the present session, and the right hon. gent. must be aware that this would require some time.
Lord Howick
observed, that from the papers then upon the table it appeared, that, upon a comparison of the Revenue and Expenditure of the Company in India, there was a deficit in the latter of above two millions and a half. This was a state of things, in which any one might see that it was impossible for the company to go on, without some adequate provision to make good this deficit. It was the more necessary, as the public had been led to expect than there would be a considerable participation, derived from the East India Company's funds, in aid of the national resources. He wished to know whether the hon. gent. meant to
663
Mr. R. Dundas
informed the noble lord, that it was his intention, at an early day, to propose some regulations respecting the affairs of India, which would include the point to which the noble lord had adverted. He was afraid, however, that he should not be able to bring forward the annual accounts at so early a day, as only a few of the ships had yet arrived, and it would be desirable to have the accounts stated in the most correct manner that was possible.
[IRISH REVENUE BILLS.]
The order of the day being read for the house going into a committee on the Irish Revenue bills, and the question being put, that the Speaker do leave the chair,
Lord Howick
rose, not to oppose the motion, but simply to observe that, by the dissolution of parliament, they had been placed in this situation, that about two millions of money, raised under the Irish Revenue acts, must either not be levied at all, or must be collected on British subjects without any legal authority. Without sending the act of parliament by a balloon, or a carrying pigeon, it was out of the nature of things, even supposing it to pass both houses with the most unexampled rapidity, that it could arrive in Ireland till several days after the existing act had expired.
Mr. Rose
argued that the hereditary duties to which all goods were already subject, would, even in the event of the payment of the additional revenues being resisted, which was not probable, enable the revenue officers, on the arrival of the act, still to levy the additional duties with precision.
Mr. Foster
observed, that a similar dilemma had already twice occurred, and no bad consequences had resulted.
Sir John Newport
was glad the right hon. gent. had stated this fact. He would tell the house how the dilemma had been got the better of; it was only done by adding one illegal act to another; by informing those who refused to pay the additional duties on the goods which they had removed in the mean time, that until they paid such additional duties, they should not be allowed to land any more goods. The father-in-law of the present member for Dublin (Mr. Shaw) rather than do so had retired from business sooner than he intended; declaring that he would never submit to the allowing the Custom House officers to take from him what they were not entitled to by law. In this way the merchants in Ireland had been sur-
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, June 29.
[AMERICAN TRADE BILL.]—Lord Hawkesbury
presented, by his majesty's command, the Order in Council, continuing the provisions of the American Intercourse act, which expired during the recess, and gave notice that it was the intention of his majesty's government to propose to parliament a bill for continuing the above act for a time to be then specified, and to propose in such bill a clause of Indemnity for the advice given to his majesty to continue the provisions of the former act, after it had legally expired.
Lord Auckland
stated that the reason he did not, when in office, recommend the continuance of the act which had now expired was the pending negociation with America. He trusted, that when the treaty which was the result of that negociation came to be discussed, it would be discussed as a treaty ratified, and he felt satisfied it would be found that every possible attention had been paid to the interests of this country. He thought it but fair now to state, that when the question of the renewal of the American Intercouse act came to be discussed, he should probably be of opinion, that the same reasons which before operated did not exist for the continuance of the act. One part of it, in particular, he objected to, and was objected to during the negociation; he alluded to that part of it which allowed to the Americans a carrying-trade between our possessions in the East Indies and Europe.
Lord Holland
referred to the Bill of Rights to prove the illegality of levying money by the authority of the crown, without the consent of parliament, and which he contended was done in the present instance, by continuing to levy duties without any competent authority.
Lord Hawkesbury
admitted that it was an infraction of the law, and therefore his majesty's ministers came to parliament for indemnity. Admitting the general principle, as stated by the noble lord, he wished to be understood that this case must stand upon its own special circumstances, of which that house would judge when the subject came regularly before them.
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Lord Grenville
contended that the order of council for levying duties which had no legal existence was a violation of a most important constitutional principle, which ought to undergo the most serious discussion in that house. Ministers had advised his majesty to levy duties for a whole month without any legal authority, and now proposed to introduce a clause in the bill intended to be brought in to indemnify themselves for this violation of the law. He thought at least that house ought to have the opportunity of discussing the great question involved in this act of the ministers in a manner which its importance deserved, and not in the shape of a clause tacked to a money bill.
Lord Holland
considered the question of so much importance, that he deemed it necessary to move for the appointment of a committee to search for precedents since the year 1688, of money being levied or applied by the crown without the authority of parliament.
Earl Bathurst
explained the nature of the operation of the order of council, which in fact raised no new duties, and raised in many instances less duties, in no instance higher than the crown was legally entitled to after the expiration of the act under a former subsisting act.
Lord Grenville
contended that this statement did not alter the nature of the case. By levying lower duties than the crown was legally entitled to, might, in some instances, be levying more money than before, as in the case of prohibitory duties, in which, by lessening the duty, more money might be raised. It was still, therefore, a violation of the principles of the constitution, for which only urgent and imperious necessity could be pleaded, and if the necessity arose out of the late dissolution of parliament, it would still remain for ministers to account for their conduct in advising a dissolution of parliament, without making provision for the legal continuance of an act which they afterwards deemed it necessary to continue without legal authority.
The Lord Chancellor
defended the expediency of the order of council, but admitted that it might be more adviseable to bring the indemnity as a separate measure before parliament.
Lord Harrowby
urged that the order of council only went to carry into effect the last known intentions of the legislature; similar circumstances had repeatedly happened under almost every government, and in many instances an indemnity had not been applied
666
Lord Grenville
observed that the argument of the noble lord (Harrowby) did not apply, as it was a matter of great doubt, whether the legislature would again continue the act; it therefore did not appear that ministers had carried into effect the intentions of the legislature.—Some further observations were made by lords Hawkesbury, Auckland, Holland, Grenvile, Boringdon, the earls of Lauderdale, Roslyn, and the lord chancellor, after which lord Hawkesbury moved the previous question, which was put and carried.
Lord Grenville
wished for some farther information with respect to any subsequent directions for carrying the order of council into effect.
Lord Hawkesbury
said he would make the necessary inquiries.
[SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL,]—Lord Grenville
moved for leave to present two bills for the amendment of the Judicature of that part of the united kingdom, called Scotland. His lordship stated, that there was nothing new in his motion, for that these bills were presented pursuant to resolutions passed in a former session, and which resolutions were framed, proposed and passed, with the avowed determination not to take the people of Scotland by surprise, but, on the contrary, to afford the most ample opportunity to that part of the united kingdom to deliberate upon, and maturely to consider the necessity and importance of passing the bills here proposed, without any unnecessary or further delay. If any delay had occurred in the passing of these bills, it was not the fault of the mover of the resolutions, in which it was expressly provided, that these bills should be passed in the present session, as their great and expedient advantages were called for, upon the admitted defects and insufficiency of the present mode of administering justice in Scotland. The titles of these bills were, a bill for the Amelioration of the Administration of Justice in Scotland, in certain Civil Causes, by the trial by Jury; and a bill for the better regulating the court of session in Scotland.
The Lord Chancellor
stated, that he was a friend to the principles of these bills, but that great difficulties having occurred in some of the clauses therein, he had proposed another bill, which he hoped would stand clear of several objections in the noble lord's
667
Lord Grenville
replied, that as the subject of these bills was fully and universally understood, and imperiously called for, to put an end to an admitted and crying defect in the administration of justice in Scotland, there was abundant time for passing these bills, which had been so long considered and adjusted, unless it was the object of his majesty's ministers, to have, for their own convenience, dissolved the late parliament, and to make this so short, as that no efficient or important business could be done in it; which intention of the ministry would be fully evinced, by the result of this question, in rejecting, or even postponing these bills.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, he felt himself warranted in insisting on a notice, previous to the bringing these bills forward, although he felt no difficulty in asserting, that the great body of the Scotch nation were not for the change proposed.
The Duke of Athol
stated, that he had taken care to make inquiries upon the subject, and found that it was not the general sense of the people of Scotland to have these bills passed at present.
The Earl of Rosslyn
stated that it was the general and prevailing sense of the country, that such bills were necessary, and that he wondered to hear such a change of sentiments in those noble lords, who in the last session were such strenuous approvers of the measure.
The Earl of Lauderdale
contended that these bills should not be postponed, on account of the act of the ministry, in dissolving the late parliament; as such a dissolution, unnecessary, in his opinion, caused much delay to many measures of urgent and important necessity. He stated, that the sense of that great and enlightened body, the Scotch bar, had been taken upon this subject, as also that of the commercial and mercantile interests of that country, which were in unison with the noble mover for the expediency and necessity of the speedy passing of these bills.
The Duke of Athol
again rose,and stated, that notwithstanding all the noble earl had said, he knew that the present measure was not the universal or general sense of the Scotch nation— The bills were then read a first time and ordered to be printed.
668
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, June 29.
[MINUTES.] Sir S. Romilly
obtained leave to bring in a bill for rendering the freehold property of persons subject to the bankrupt laws assets for the payment of their debts.— On the motion of Mr. Long it was ordered, that there be laid before the house, an account of the expenditure of the British Museum in the years 1805 and 1806, together with an estimate of the expenditure of 1807.—Mr. Rose presented a petition from the Trustees of the British Museum, setting forth, that the Trustees and administrators of the will of the late marquis of Lansdown have proposed to the consideration of the petitioners, the expediency of purchasing for the use of the public a valuable collection of manuscripts belonging to the said late marquis of Lansdown, chiefly concerning the public writings and records of this country, composed and collected by William lord Burghly, lord high treasurer in the reign of queen Elizabeth, sir Julius Cæsar, master of the rolls and judge of the high court of admiralty in the reigns of queen Elizabeth and king James I., and other learned and eminent persons; and that there is already in the British Museum a very valuable and extensive collection of manuscripts important to the public, for the purpose of elucidating the public history of this country, and for furnishing evidence of the rights and possessions of individuals, to which the Lansdown collection of manuscripts would be a most valuable addition; but that the funds of the petitioners being insufficient for the common annual expenditure of the Museum without the accustomed aid of parliament, they are unable to provide for the purchase of the said collection of manuscripts; and therefore praying the house to take the matter into consideration, and to adopt such measures as to the house shall seem fit, for ascertaining the public importance of adding the Lansdown collection of manuscripts to those already lodged in the British museum, and also the value of such collection; and further to act therein as to, the House shall seem meet.—Mr. Bankes, with a view to shew the progress that had been made towards rendering the British Museum useful in the degree that it ought to be to the public, moved, that there be laid before the house copies of all the Regulations adopted for the better preservation of the different collections, and for rendering them more accessible to artists and others;
669
nem. con
l.
[OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.]
On the motion of Mr. Bankes, the resolution of the 24th of March last against granting Offices in reversion, was read, and leave was given to bring in a bill, similar to that pending when the late parliament was dissolved, for carrying the resolution into a law.
Sir John Newport
took this opportunity of stating, that in the bill introduced by him in the last session, for abolishing certain useless offices, and for the better Regulation of other offices in Ireland, one had been omitted, which he had since found ought to have been included. He meant the office of Surveyor and Inspector of the River Ken mare; an office created a few years since, and granted to Sir Boyle Roche and J. Aylmer, esq. with benefit of survivorship. There was no Surveyor or Inspector, of the same description, for any other river in Ireland: it was quite a sinecure, with a salary of £300 a year, It had been, he knew not how, omitted in the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry in Ireland, and therefore omitted in the bill brought in by him on that report.
Mr. Herbert
(of Kerry)
said, that the river Kenmare lay principally in the county he had the honour to represent. Its course was forty miles long, and above five or six broad, with numberless creeks, and without a single Revenue Office in its vicinity to controul the smuggling exercised upon it, till this office had been created. The smuggling had, shortly after the appointment, been greatly reduced.
Lord H. Petty
was aware of the smuggling upon the river Kenmare; but that was a stronger reason for suppressing a useless sinecure, and substituting an active prevention.
Mr. Herbert
explained. He meant that some inspection was necessary, The smug-
670
Sir Arthur Wellesley
said this office appeared, from what had been said, to be one of those that ought to be regulated, rather than suppressed. It was, however, subject to the disposal of parliament, as the vacancy created by the death of sir Boyle Roche had not been filled up, unless it had been by the late ministers.
[RESOLUTIONS RELATING TO PRIVATE BILLS.] The Speaker
acquainted the house, that, pursuant to the direction of the house, an account had been prepared of all Private Bills pending at the time of the late dissolution, with the several stages in which they were on the 27th of April, and those that were passed, with the exception of receiving the royal assent.— The account was ordered to lie on the table, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. Perceval
rose to submit to the house a motion, which he hoped would remove all the inconveniences affecting private bills, arising from the late dissolution of parliament. If, however, the house should estimate more highly than he did those inconveniences, those who had such a superior feeling of them, would, he trusted, be but more strongly compelled to adopt the resolution which went to remedy them. He was sure that those who regarded the dissolution as a crime not to be forgiven, would be disposed to visit the punishment of it wholly upon the advisers, without involving those who were but innocent sufferers. He never had said that the dissolution was not attended with inconvenience: it was merely on a comparison of that inconvenience with the superior importance of the reasons that rendered the dissolution necessary at that precise time, that he defended it. The principal inconveniences complained of were the delay and the additional expense. The delay of two months, he hoped, could not be attended with any material inconvenience; and as to the expense, it would be obviated in one of its branches by the liberality of the officers, who, according to the precedent established by their former liberality in 1784, agreed to advance the bills so pending at the dissolution, to their former stages, without any additional fees. It remained only to obviate the expense of agency, and the attendance of witnesses in town. This was the principal object of the resolution he meant to propose, which was to give an instruction to the committee, to which every petition for a private bill should be re-
671
Lord H. Petty
was ready to concur in every proper measure to lighten the inconveniences caused by the late dissolution. He, however, wished the house to consider, that to the serjeant at Arms, and others of the officers, the deficiencies of their fees beneath a certain amount was to be made good from the public purse, and this deficiency would of course be increased by remitting the fees.
Mr. Curwen
could not reconcile himself to so dangerous a precedent as this, which by presenting a mode for relieving the private inconveniences incident to such a stretch of power, would always render it a matter of facility to a minister to dissolve parliament, in every case in which its temper and disposition might be adverse to his views. It was true, there had been a strong opposition to the late ministers on the two questions that had been tried touching the manner in which they had come into power. He had been one of those who had opposed them upon these questions, and he lamented that the decision upon them had not been different; for as it was, it tended to endanger the security of the crown, and of the country itself. He was sure, however, that no vexatious opposition had been intended; and if there had been, he would not have been a party to it. He lamented the inconveniences to private persons resulting from the dissolution; but though he wished to alleviate those inconveniences, he could not consent
672
Lord Howick
coincided in what had fallen from his hon. friend near him. However desirous of remedying the inconveniences occasioned by the dissolution (and every day shewed those inconveniences to be so great, that the period seemed to have been purposely chosen at which they must have been the greatest), he could not easily bring himself to consent to the measure now proposed to remedy those inconveniences. The magnitude of the inconveniences might indeed be well estimated, from the extraordinary nature of the remedy proposed. That remedy went to suspend and repeal for the time, the forms by which the privileges of the house of commons, and the rights and the property of the people, were secured and protected. However highly he might be disposed to commend the liberality of the clerks, it was not a very pleasant situation in which to place the house or the country, to make them dependent on that liberality. However it might answer in cases in which there was no opposition to allow the bills to proceed, without the necessity of bringing up witnesses, in cases of contest and opposition, the vast expence attending such cases must be again incurred. The necessary notices were not to be insisted upon, and individuals might find their property invaded, without any intimation to put them on their guard. It was impossible for him, in these circumstances, to consent to the arrangement proposed. If the right hon. gent. would but allow himself a pause of 24 hours, he would not think of pressing a measure, not only differing widely from all precedent, but violatory of every parliamentary principle. He recommended at least the appointment of a Committee to search into precedents. In 1784, though the expedient of forwarding the bills without fees had been adopted, no standing order had been violated. He again expatiated on the mischiefs attending the dissolution. He disclaimed all idea of vexatious opposition. Though there had necessarily been a decided opposition on the questions immediately touching the change of administration, and involving great constitutional principles, the decision that had been formed upon which he feared there would be cause to regret, there would not have been another division in the course of the session, unless something new had been brought forward. The Inclosure bills could not possibly be carried into effect, when passed at so late a period of the session.
673
Mr. Perceval
said, he could not hope to alter the noble lord's opinion, nor that of those who acted with him, as to the merits of the late dissolution. He was happy to think, however, that there was a great majority of the house, who were of opinion with him, that the prerogative was properly exercised in that instance. The importance of the circumstances that led to the dissolution were more than sufficient to counterbalance the private inconveniences. It was the great public interest that was to be consulted, and not private convenience. The noble lord was mistaken in supposing that any standing order was violated, or that the usual notice to parties was infringed upon. The standing order relative to notices required that they should be given at the Michaelmas, or in the August and September preceding the session in which the bill was to be brought in. The Michaelmas, the August, and the September that preceded the last session, were also the Michaelmas, August, and September preceding this, and therefore the same notice answered for the bills to be now brought in, The same construction had been put on the law of notices in the year 1784, and in the year 1800, in the first session of the United Parliament following the short session of the British parliament. He thought it rather a strange way of strengthening the argument derived from the inconveniences attending the dissolution, to refuse to alleviate those inconveniences.
Lord Howick
in explanation, vindicated himself from the imputation of being disposed to add to the inconveniences arising from the dissolution, which he had every wish to remedy, so far as that could be done without creating public mischief. He denied the application of the precedents of 1784 and ,1800, in the most material circumstances. No resolution, like the present, had been then adopted.
Sir John Newport
objected to the resolution, as going to substitute written evidence for paroie evidence, with the power of personal examination.
Mr.Rose
said, the committees were to be at liberty to call for parole evidence whenever they might think it necessary. He thought the house could by its own power obviate the difficulties touching the fees in every instance: for though the fees were, in some instances, appropriated by act of parliament,
674
Lord H. Petty
allowed that the power of the house might extend as far as the hon. gent. stated; but it would not, perhaps, be right, after the house had passed an act of approbation, to withdraw, the sums to be appropriated.— After a few words from Mr. Bastard and sir J. Anstruther against the motion, Mr. Shaw Lefevre moved, that the debate be adjourned till to-morrow. This produced a short discussion between the chancellor of the exchequer, lord Howick, Mr. W. Smith, Mr. C. Wynne, and Mr. C. Dundas, in which it was contended, on the one hand, that there were no grounds, and on the other, that there were ample grounds for such a postponement. Upon which the house then divided: For the adjournment 76. Against it 164. The resolution was then put and carried.
[CONDUCT OF MARQUIS WELLESLEY]—Lord Folkestone
entertaining still the same opinion that he had from the beginning, relative to the conduct of marquis Wellesley in the Oude transaction, moved, that the several Papers ordered with a view to the accusation and defence of the noble Marquis on that charge in the last session, be again laid before the house.
Sir John Anstruther
said, it must be equally the wish of all persons, as well those who disapproved of the administration of the noble marquis, as those who thought like him, that it was the brightest period of the British history in India; that as well on public as on private grounds, these charges so long pending should be brought to a decision as speedily as possible. As those who had been in the last and the preceding parliament, must have already made themselves masters of all the documents; and as there were in the vote office a sufficient number of copies to supply all the new members, he recommended, with a view to economy and expedition, that instead of renewing the general order for presenting and printing, the remaining copies should be distributed to the new members, and that the business should be decided oil as early a day as possible in this session.
Lord Folkestone
expressed his willingness to promote a speedy decision, but with a fear that the present session, from the variety of other important business, would not in its short duration afford either sufficient time, or a sufficiently full attendance for this question.
675
Mr. Creevey
from the difficulty of deciding in a case in which the noble marquis's friends thought his administration most useful, and the East India Company, according to a book published under the authority of the Court of Directors, represented it as the most injurious to their trade and revenue, as an absolute despotism, violatory of all the laws for the government of India, thought the present short session, occupied as it would be with a multiplicity of other important matters, would not afford a proper opportunity for coming to a determination upon it.
Mr. H. Addington
thought there was a combination of every private and public reason for coming to a decision as speedily as possible. Those who had been members of the last parliament, had read all the documents which had been ordered, he would say too precipitately, without the substantiation of a
prima facie
The Speaker
said, it was not necessary that papers should be presented and printed in every new parliament, in order to afford ground for parliamentary proceedings. It was enough that they were in the custody of the house, and might be read. If the sense of the house should be to dispose of any papers in its stores to any particular description of members, it would be the duty of the Speaker to carry the wish of the house shortly into execution.— In answer to a wish expressed by sir A. Wellesley, that a day should be appointed for the decision of the question, lord Folkestone stated, that for himself he was always ready to come to the discussion, but he could not fix any day without consulting others.
[MEMORIAL OF SIR HENRY MILDMAY.]—Sir Henry Mildmay
rose, to give an explanation of some circumstances, which had caused much unmerited obloquy to be cast upon him. He did not wish to conceal the state of anxiety in which he was. But that anxiety arose from a fear, lest his abilities should not be sufficiently, adequate to the task; and lest the feelings of one, little accustomed to calumny, should render him incapable of giving a full explanation. That transaction was the only one he had ever had with government, or ever would have if he could help it. The fourth report of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry had been perverted for the purpose of casting aspersions on him; and it had been said, that he had received undue favours from govern-
676
677
678
Mr. Sturges Bourne
seconded the motion. He rose,. he said, in consequence of the calumnies that had been circulated against, him, which he regarded less on his own account than on account of his hon. friend. Indeed, they would have been unworthy of notice if they had not been echoed by the noble lord over the way (lord Howick).He seemed to have looked at the newspaper report rather than at the Report of the commissioners. His name had not occurred in the Report, except where it was found at the bottom of one letter on this subject. He had been told that the age of insinuation was past, but if it was so, he was very unfortunate, for no one had met with more insinuations. He hoped the practice of making insinuations on account of private friendships, would be done away. He had no concern with the origin of the business, and yet he was accused of giving 630
l.
l.
l.
679
Mr. H. Martin
considered the bargain as highly advantageous to the hon. baronet, and ruinous to the public, and therefore contended that the matter should be inquired into. It appeared to him also objectionable, that the hon. baronet, in justifying himself, seemed to impute blame to the Military Commissioners. He did not mean to say that the hon. baronet intended to do so; but the consequence that would follow from his statement was, that the commissioners did not understand the transaction. The compensation of 1300
l.
680
Mr. Secretary Canning
approved in warm terms of the candid statement made by his hon. friend. He did think it an ingenusous statement, and he hoped that the gentlemen who were so ready to charge would prove equally ingenuous in their own defence when called upon under any circumstances that might hereafter arise to vindicate themselves. He censured the manner in which the calumnies of the daily publications had been sanctioned by the authority of the noble lord (Howick), and contended that such calumnies would have sunk into their merited oblivion, had they not received a sort of stamp and currency from what had recently passed within that house.
Lord Howick
said, that in the very few words he should feel it necessary to say upon the present subject, he should cautiously abstain from following the example of the right hon. secretary, by trying to divert the attention of the house from a serious charge affecting one of its members, by a vague recrimination, equally inapplicable and groundless. He did not blame, he rather approved of the hon. baronet's refusing to answer the newspaper attacks that bad been made upon him; and though the right hon. secretary had accused him (lord Howick) of sanctioning newspaper calumnies, he had been so much more the object than the promoter of such attacks, that he did not think such insinuation in any respect just towards him. He would not retort the charge upon the right hon. secretary, though, at the same time, he could not forget the keen and poignant wit that in other times had distinguished the papers of the Anti-jacobin. As to the other hon. gent. (Mr. S. Bourne) he had never imputed to him any timing more than negligence, which might naturally be the consequence of a great multiplicity of business; but he had satisfaction in saying, that so far as that gentleman was concerned, he
681
Lord H. Petty
justified the hon. gent. (Mr. S. Bourne) from the imputation against him. So far as he had an opportunity of judging, there appeared no ground to suspect that hon. gent. of any corrupt practice while Secretary of the Treasury.—After a few words from general Hope, Mr. P. Carew, Mr. Montague, the chancellor of the exchequer, Mr. Ashley, and lord H. Petty, the motion was agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 30.
[PRIVATE BILLS.] The
Lord Chancellor
682
Lord
Grenville
[AMERICAN TRADE BILL.] Lord
Hawkesbury,
Lord
Grenville
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, June 30.
[BRITISH AND FOREIGN SHIPPING] Mr.
Eden
683
684
Mr.
Rose
Lord
Howick
685
686
The
Chancellor of the Exchequer
Sir
C. Price
Lord
H. Petty
687
Lord
Castlereagh
Lord
Temple
Mr. Secretary
Canning
Mr.
Whitbread
Mr.
Canning,
Dr.
Laurence
688
Mr.
M. Montague
[BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—NEWSPAPER MISREPRESENTATION.]—Mr.
Sturges Bourne
689
[BRITISH TROOPS IN THE WEST INDIES.] Mr.
Cochrane Johnstone
690
Lord
Castlereagh
Mr.
Windham
691
The
Secretary at War
Mr.
W Smith
692
Mr.
C. Johnstone
[FINANCE COMMITTEE]—The
Chancellor of the Exchequer,
693
694
695
696
Lord
Henry Petty
697
l.
698
Mr.
Boyle,
699
Mr.
Biddulph
Mr.
Brand
700
Mr.
Secretary Canning
701
702
703
Mr.
Curwen
704
Mr. Secretary
Canning
Dr.
Laurence
Sir
S. Romilly
705
Mr.
Bankes
706
Mr.
Whitbread
707
Mr
Addington
Lord
Cochrane
Colonel
Shipley
708
Mr.
Stuart Wortley
Mr.
Bankes
Mr.
Huskisson
Mr.
H. Thornton
Mr. Alderman
Combe
Mr.
Sharpe
709
Mr.
Lamb
Lord
A. Hamilton
Lord
Howick
710
711
712
713
The
Chancellor of the Exchequer
714
Lord
Howick
715
Mr.
Biddulph
Lord
Howick
The
Chancellor of the Exchequer
Lord
Howick
Mr.
Home Sumner
716
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, July 1.
[PAPERS RELATING TO THE POLYGARS.]—Sir T. Turton
rose to give notice, that he would on Friday se'nnight move for the production of certain papers, relative to the Polygars. Being on his legs, he took occasion to advert to another subject, which was intimately connected with that to which his notice referred, namely, the subject of the Carnatic. Upon that subject he had, in the last session of the last parliament, moved for the printing of certain papers which were not ready before the dissolution, but which had since been distributed among most of the members, and of course they had full opportunity of becoming acquainted with it. For himself he could say, that he was quite prepared to enter into the discussion, but as a matter of courtesy he thought a noble lord (Folkestone) claimed the precedency, and as that noble lord's motion required some preparation, he could not look for a full attendance upon the question with which he meant to follow. He, therefore, could not feel himself able to promise the introduction of the Carnatic Question, in the course of the present session. However, if those who were immediately concerned for the noble marquis to whom these investigations referred, wished to have this question brought before the house, he could tell them that he was fully prepared to bring it forward.
Sir A. Wellesley
professed his anxiety to have this matter at once brought forward and decided. He begged the house to consider the time in which the friends of the noble lord alluded to had been kept in suspense. For no less than six years this question had been under the consideration of the house, and according to the manner in which those who undertook to manage it proceeded, it might be still six years more before they arrived at a final issue, during which the noble marquis and his friends were to be agitated by perpetual discussions, or rather by perpetual abuse. With such a consideration in their minds, it was of course the wish of all connected with the noble marquis, that the business might be determined as soon as possible. If, therefore, the hon. baronet was willing to prosecute the business, it was the wish of the noble marquis's friends that he should bring it forward at once.
Sir T. Turton
had no reason for hesitating
717
if,
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, July 2.
[CLOATHING OF VETERAN BATTALIONS.]—Mr. Rose
agreeably to notice, made his promised motion for the production of certain letters which had passed on the subject of the Cloathing for the Veteran Battalions, and which had not been produced in compliance with a former order of the house. He thought it necessary to explain what the nature of the letters and minutes, which in his opinion were material to the subject in question, and which he presumed to think had been improperly withheld, actually was. When he was appointed one of the joint paymasters of the forces, it occurred to him, that if any savings were likely to be made in the military department, the cloathing was a branch in which it might as probably be effected as in any other. He inquired accordingly, how other parts of the service were provided in this respect, and found that a person who contracted for cloathing the marines, did so at a rate greatly lower than that charged for cloathing the invalids. He sent for this person and found that his charge was only 1l. 1s. 6d per suit, whereas the charge then made for cloathing the invalids, was 1l. 7s. 9d. It turned out, however, that there was more lace on the cloaths of the Veteran Battalions than the contractor had been aware, he therefore increased his estimate to 1l. 3s. Having ascertained this, the right hon. gent. next sent for the person accustomed to cloath the Veteran Battalions, telling him that his wish was not to change any tradesmen, if they could continue to serve the public on nearly the same terms with others. He stewed to this gentleman (Mr. Dickie) the suit of cloaths, furnished by the person to whom he (Mr. R.) had applied, whose name was Courtney, and asked if he (Mr. D.) was willing to serve government agreeably to that pattern, for 1l. 3s.? Mr. Dickie replied he could not, and that if
718
Lord Temple
said, he should not inquire into the reasons which had induced the rights hon gent. to take on himself the present statement, when, if there was any thing in
719
720
Mr. Long
admitted that applications had been made to him, but the mode was now changed, being by advertisement for estimates. If the noble lord had been at all hurt by the agitating of the present question, he could not help thinking he had himself alone to blame, in carrying away in his pocket such evidence as seemed to support the step which he had taken, and leaving behind him in the office only such evidence as went to condemn him.
Lord Howick
complained, that these charges were preferred without giving his noble friend the opportunity of a fair trial, From the information his noble friend had received, he was not only justified in transferring the contract as he had done; but he would have been highly culpable if he had not transferred it. He knew not whether the clothing of the marines was furnished by Mr. Courtnay; but he had heard while at the admiralty very general complaints of the marine clothing.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought the statement of this night entirely owing to the noble lord's own conduct. If he was inconvenienced he had himself alone to blame.
Mr. Windham
thought that though the, right hon. gent. might be justified in bringing forward the measure, he could not be justified in not now proceeding in it.
Mr. Johnstone
approved of the mode in which the business had been brought forward.
Mr. Wilberforce
wished to know if the noble lord meant to say that the substance of the letters were contained in the Minutes, or only that they were referred to in them?
Lord H. Petty
answered the question by reading a part of the minutes.
General Tarleton
begged the house to consider its own dignity. If this practice of recrimination was to be perpetually resorted to; if when a charge was to be made against one party, it was answered by a counter complaint, there never would be an end to any debate in that house. He thought the subject ought to go before a committee of inquiry, without further ceremony.
Mr. Huskisson
read extracts of letters from various commanding officers, expressing their satisfaction with the manner in which Mr. Courtnay had executed his contract. The late ministry had written a circular letter,
721
Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
said, this was one of the neatest jobs he ever heard of in his life. He was glad the house had taken up the subject of the army clothing, as it would lead to the discovery of a great many abuses in that department, and tend to better the condition of our brave defenders.—The motion was then agreed to.
[SHERIFFS DEPUTE OF SUTHERLAND, &C. AND LORD CULLEN'S PENSION.]—Mr. W. Adam rose
to make his promised motion on the above subjects. He entered into a description of the office of Sheriff Depute in Scotland. It was a selection of local jurisdiction of the highest importance, and one in which it was extremely necessary that the duty should be performed with as much dispatch as possible. The Shrievalties of Sutherland and Caithness were formerly united, but, in consequence of the inaccessibility of the former county, it had been deemed necessary to separate them and to appoint a sheriff for each. This occasioned an expense of only 350l. a year. Sutherland was a county containing 26,000 inhabitants, and he appealed to all who knew Scotland, whether the appointment of a separate Sheriff Depute did not stand recommended on public grounds of advantage. He then explained the situation of the counties of Kinross and Clackmannan, neither of which had a Sheriff Depute. The Sheriff Depute of Stirling had jurisdiction in Clackmannan, and the Sheriff Depute of Fife in Kinross. In the latter county, as long as he remembered, the Sheriff Depute never did himself discharge the duty of his office, but appointed a substitute for that purpose, who, though a very respectable man, possessed no legal information. It became necessary to remedy these evils, and on public principles of utility, Sheriffs Depute were appointed for those two counties of Clackmannan and Kinross. To effect this, it became necessary to obtain the formal resignations of the Sheriffs of Fife and Stirling, who were afterwards re-appointed with their salaries.—He next proceeded to the subject of the warrant for granting a pension to lord Cullen, and expressed his regret that the sub-
722
723
The Lord Advocate of Scotland
was desirous, that the letters and applications of the Sheriffs Depute for these counties should be laid before the house. Without meaning to throw any imputation on the respectable individuals who had occupied the new offices, he termed their appointment an unnecessary or wanton expense. To prove this, he entered into a history of the sheriffs depute of Scotland; they were divided into 5 classes; each class receiving a salary proportionate to its labour; by the new arrangements, the sheriff of Sutherland, who was placed in the last class but one, because no peculiar difficulty attended his situation, was to receive a higher salary than some of those in the first class. The sheriffs of Stirling and Fife had, it seems, resigned, to gave an opportunity for the new arrangements. He would like to know if they were not solicited to do so. With respect to the pension granted to lord Cullen, he would not follow the learned gent. in his detail on that subject, but he was surprised that if it was thought advisable to take such a step, it was not done in such a manner as to preclude the necessity of bringing it under the consideration of the house of common. He concluded by some severe remarks on the creation by his majesty's late ministers of two new professorships in the University Of Edinburgh—that of Medical Jurisprudence, and that of Military Surgery.
724
Mr. C. Wynne
defended the institution of the two new professorships. There was scarcely a college on the continent, which had not long had a professor of medical jurisprudeuce, and the advantages of having a distinct professor of military surgery were obvious.
Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
declared, that a more honest, upright, and able judge than Mr. Williamson, the Sheriff Depute of Stirling, could not exist. He happened to be with him when he received a letter from lord Spencer, requiring him to resign, protempore, in order that a distinct sheriff might be appointed for Clackmannan. Mr. Williamson declared to him, that such an appointment was wholly unnecessary, and exclaimed, in his Northern dialect, "Gude God, Maister Johnstone, did you ever see sic a job!" (A laugh.) With respect to the pension granted to lord Cullen, the reversion. to Mrs. Cullen was a gross insult to the morals and feelings of the people of Scotland.
Mr. R. Dundas
never heard of the least necessity for the appointment of the new sheriffs. As to lord Cullen's pension, the character of that learned lord certainly stood very high; but when he was thus selected from a body of men, and shewn peculiar indulgencies, he thought if indispensible that more specific grounds should be stated for such a measure than what had hitherto been advanced.
Mr. Laing
defended the appointment of the sheriffs. The question was not, whether the sheriffs of Stirling and Fife declared that there was nothing to do in Clackmannan and Kinross, but whether the people of Clackmannan and Kinross were satisfied with the sheriffs not coming there to do any thing for them. He had never understood that lord Cullen was a very particular friend to the last administration, and he could not therefore see the justice of imputing the grant which he had received to party motives. Adverting to the arguments urged by a learned lord against the appointment of the two new professorships at Edinburgh, he observed, that similar arguments might have been applied with equal force against the appointment of Dr. Blair, as Regius Professor of the Belles Lettres; or of Dr. Walker, as Regius Professor of Natural History. Those appointments might as well be called jobs as the present; but he confessed he was not surprised, that men who had belonged to an administration the most unfriendly to literature that ever existed, and by whom genius of every description had been left to
725
The Marquis of Titchfield
expressed his belief that the duke of Portland was not acquainted with the particulars of the transaction which was then the subject of debate.
Mr. W. Dundas
defended the appointment of the sheriffs. In Sutherland, in consequence of the distance of the residence of the sheriffs, justice was not delayed but not done. The country was 80 miles from sea to sea, 50 miles in the other direction; had a population of 26,000 inhabitants, and ought to have a particular sheriff. Lord Reay, who had a large property in it, had intreated him for the last five years to procure that alteration, and he lamented that whilst he had the opportunity from his Connexion with ministers, he had not endeavoured to accomplish so desirable an object. He had said thus much just to give a warning to the right hon. gentlemen opposite, that if they meant this women's war of recrimination, for the purpose of gaining popularity, they would not find it succeed.
The Solicitor General
for Scotland contended that the duties of the shrievalty were now as before done by deputy, and that eminent person who had been appointed sheriff of Sutherland resided in Edinburgh, and could not have given his presence in the county for the time required by act of parliament. As the matter had been brought before the house he thought it right to be fully, fairly, and thoroughly sifted, and therefore he moved as an amendment, That there be also laid before the house copies of all official correspondence upon the subject.
Mr. Croker
thought that literary merit ought to be rewarded in the usual way. He was not a friend to giving indirect rewards for direct services.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
did not think the public would derive much advantage from these discussions, but the right hon. gent. who represented them as women's war of recrimination, should not lose sight of the side from which the attack was made. He should look to those who sent forth charges of attempts to raise false cries, and wished no peculation to go to the country as their cry, as if they were all purity, and their opponents the advocates of peculation. He had observed, in the late administration, that they made great professions, without any corresponding performances, and attempted to gain popularity with the public upon false
726
Mr. H. Martin
was extremely happy to find that he had the approbation of a right hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Rose) whose name was so proverbial as an enemy to all jobs! That right hon. gent. could, he was well convinced, be very serviceable to the country, if he was to devote his time to an endeavour to make out discoveries of this nature, and if he had the support of parliament, the Country would not say that this was a woman's war. He was not himself, he confessed, so capable of defending against an accusation of this sort as those who had spent 14 years in extending the power of France. But on Tuesday next all these independent gentlemen would have an opportunity of testifying their zeal for the detection of abuses, by supporting the motion of a noble lord (Cochrane) for a list of those members who held pensions, places, &c. either in person or by other branches of their family.
Mr. Canning
in a strain of irony, lamented his ability to rise, after the very able, precise, and formal speech of the learned gent. However, the necessity of the new appointments of sheriffs, he confessed he did not see to be very clearly made out, neither was the term of Medical jurisprudence, very accurately defined. And the matter of the pension to lord Cullen was still less satisfactorily explained. As the learned gent. had not given him the most ample satisfaction upon the whole, he should vote in support of the motion for the production of the papers.
Mr. Rose
got up in great Warmth and alluded to what had been said by the learned gent. (Mr. Martin.) If the hon. and learned gent., said he, thinks he can put me down by any such insinuations as he has just made, he will find himself mistaken. He says that my name is connected with jobs, I dare that hon. and learned gent. to shew the instance in any part of my life in which I was con-
727
Mr. Martin
said, he hoped he had spoken under and within the rules and orders of the house, since he was not checked by the chair; and while he was in that order, he should convey his ideas to the house in the manner which appeared to him the most fit.
Mr. Windham
thought the house had heard pleasantry too long pursued, and fury too much indulged in the course of this debate. Of accusations generally and loosely made, no one disapproved mere than himself; but they were not to be got rid of by abandoning the subject in discussion. The questions here were not to be gotten rid of by the species of declamation in which the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer had indulged. When he talked, in lofty terms, of having his eye on the late administration, that he would strip off their mask, and made use of such expressions, the right hon. gent. reminded him of a considerable person of the last age, and to whom during his life considerable attention was paid by the public; he meant Mr. Pope. He had as pompously written concerning his power of exposing others as the right hon. gent. had spoken:
Yes; while I live, no rich ignoble knave
Shall walk the world in credit to his grave.
728
bonâ fide
Mr. Huskisson
wished to know, whether it was by intention or mistake that the precedents in the case of the grant of pensions to lords Loughborough, Eldon, and Redesdale, were departed from in the grant to Mr. Ponsonby late Chancellor for Ireland. In the former cases, the pension was to cease in case the noble lords should again be placed in the same office, or in any other of equal profit; but this limitation was left out of the grant to Mr. Ponsonby; so that if their project, that gentleman would again probably have the seals without his pension being discontinued.
Lord H. Petty
had signed the warrant by virtue of which Mr. Ponsonby was to enjoy his pension. He had signed it under the impression that it was similar to the warrants for granting pensions to the other chancellors, and would not have signed it under any other impression.
Mr. Adam
vindicated all the circumstances that attended the pension of lord Cullen: he was intimately acquainted with them all, and was the person with whom the duke of Portland and lord Cullen had communicated upon that subject. As to the pension operating as a corrupt motive on the mind of lord Cullen, no man of any administration would venture to assert it. The same propriety he might assert, presided in the choice of the professorships, in the Universities of Scotland, and he would defy the gentlemen opposite to say, that under and former administration, such impartiality had been observed.—The motion was then agreed to.
729
[PENSIONS TO CHANCELLORS.]—Mr. Huskisson
begged leave to differ with the learned gentlemen who spoke last, as to this very disinterested spirit which it was pretended pervaded and characterised all the appointments of the late administration Was the pension granted to Mr. Ponsonby on his retiring from the chancellorship of Ireland of that description? was it even accompanied and checked by the usual clause that the pension of 4000l. per annum should not be enjoyed by that learned gent. in case he accepted of any other office to the same amount, or up wards? In order to place this matter in a clear point of view, he thought it his duty to move, That there be laid before the house, a copy of all the warrants, granting pensions to Chancellors in England and Ireland since the 1st of Jan. 1800.
Lord Howick
declared, he had no objection whatever to the motion of the hon. gent.; at the same time he could not help thinking, that the hon. gent was not the most qualified person in the world to resist improper grants, when a Certain marriage settlement was recollected, and many other grants to the hon. gent. his family, and connections, got by what means, the Lord only knew, and for what the Devil only knew. It Was not a happy measure to come from that side of the house, when he looked round, and observed that every member then sitting on the Treasury Bench, all of them, to a man, enjoyed some place, pension, or grant, either contingent to themselves, or in reversion to expectancy, as provision for their families and relatives; he could not think this motion came with much grace from that side of the house. If he was to single out one man more than another, as the most unqualified man, taking all the circumstances into consideration, he would say the hon. gent. was the most improper and the least qualified to bring forward such a motion in that house. The noble lord believed it was not the intention of the late government, to give Mr. Ponsonby more than Other chancellors had received before him. Those who knew the character of Mr. Ponsonby, those who were acquainted with his independence and liberality of sentiment, well knew, that he himself would be the first to cancel any improper grant made to him, he would be the last man in existence to take advantage of such an act. He should say no upon this subject, except to declare, that it was not the intention of his majesty's late ministers to make this grant different from all others of the same kind; and if it became neces-
730
731
Mr. Huskisson
denied that he had said any thing in the slightest degree derogatory to the late chancellor Ponsonby, for whom he professed the most unfeigned respect.—The motion was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, July 3.
[PENSIONS TO CHANCELLORS.] Mr. Huskisson
regretted that the noble lord (Howick) was not present, to whom he had last night addressed a question respecting the omission in the grant of a pension to the late Irish Chancellor (Mr. Ponsonby) on his retiring from office, of the usual clause respecting the pension, should he again accept a situation of trust or emolument. He had since received information that this was owing to a mistake in the grant on this side of the water, and that in the warrant issued from the Treasury in Ireland, the proper clause was inserted. He trusted that no one was less disposed than himself to throw out an unfounded insinuation on any man, or any set of men. But he had been deceived by the mistake in the grant, which certainly did exist. He therefore moved, that the order which had last night been made for the production of the grant be discharged. Ordered. Soon after,
Lord Howick
entered the house, and observed, that his anxiety on this subject had been so great, that on the adjournment of the house last night, he had lost no time, but had called on Mr. Ponsonby, to ascertain the truth of the hon. gent's, assertion. Mr. Ponsonby could not inform him whether or not the grant contained the clause alluded to; but he assured him that he had never the slightest idea whatever of accepting the pension, without the usual conditions; and he had since then written to lord Hawkesbury, stating, that should the clause actually have been omitted in the grant, he was ready to surrender it for the purpose of its insertion. He (lord Howick) confidently appealed to the gentlemen of Ireland, whether there had ever been a chancellor, who had discharged the important duties of his high office with greater ability, diligence; and advantage to the public? When he first succeeded to the office, the Chancery Court of Dublin was in arrears for six years of Notices, for 600 Motions, and for 427 Causes; when he quitted office, he had got under all the notices and motions, and had
732
Mr. Huskisson
repeated his former statement. The clause had certainly been omitted in the grant on this side of the water, and be was therefore justified in imagining that it might have been omitted in Ireland, and that it was intended to be so.
[NAVY, ARMY, AND ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.]
The house resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. The Speaker having left the chair,
Mr. R. Ward
stated that the Navy Estimates were, with little variation, the same as the last Estimates. He had nothing more to do, therefore, than to move the following resolutions. That 130,000 Seamen be allowed for the year 1807, including 31,400 Royal Marines. That 3,126,500l. be granted for wages for these seamen for 13 months, at 1l. 8s. per man, per month. That 3,211,000l. be granted for victualling the men for 13 months, at the rate of 1l. 18s. per man per month. That 5,070,000l. be granted for the wear and tear of the ships, at the rate of 31. per month. That 422,500l. be granted for the sea service in advance. That 1,135,474l. be granted for the half-pay of the navy. That 2,134,903l. be granted for naval buildings and extra works. That 1,500,000l. be granted for the hire of transports for the year 1807. That 300,000l. be granted for the sick and wounded seamen. That 500,000l. be granted for the prisoners of war at home and abroad.—These resolutions were put and agreed to.
The Secretary at War
then rose and said; that he need not trouble the house any farther than by moving the following resolutions;—that 113,795 effective men be allowed for the land forces. That 4,051,623l. be allowed for the pay of these troops. That 2,609,143l. be allowed for the troops in the plantations. That 125,214l. be allowed for the dragoons. That 277,249l. be allowed for the charge of recruiting and contingencies. That 190,529l. 17s. 6d. be granted for the staff officers. 2,493,664l. for the embodied militia. 622,153l. for the militia contingencies. 157,227l. 16s. for the charges of clothing the militia. 34,483l. for the full
733
Mr. Ashton
moved the ordnance estimates, which were, 2,278,197l. for the ordnance of the land service. 301,406l. for the service of the year 1805. 262,365l. for the service of the year 1806. 471,246l. for the ordnance of Ireland.—The resolutions were put and carried.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday July 6
[PETITION AGAINST MR. GALWAY MILLS.] Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
presented a petition from Mr. Elliott of New Bond-street, against Mr. Galway Mills, who was then in custody of the Marshal of the King's Bench, for a debt due to the petitioner, when he was returned to the present parliament. The petition stated, that in the course of business two bills of exchange had come from Mr. Mills into the hands of the petitioner, which had been respectively dishonoured; that Mr. Mills was also indebted in considerable sums to the petitioner for work done, goods sold, and money advanced; that in last Michaelmas Term the said Mr. Mills had, upon process out of the Court of King's Bench, been taken into the custody of the marshal of the said court, but had entered a sham demurrer, which he had afterwards abandoned; that in last Trinity Term the petitioner had obtained judgment for 1013
l
734
l
[STATE OF THE NATION.] Mr. Whitbread
rose and addressed the house as follows:—I am not, Sir, altogether unaccustomed to address this assembly. During the number of years I have had the honour of a seat among you, it has been my lot to bring forward several important propositions, some of which have experienced a favourable reception, but the greater part a determined opposition. Yet never have I been in the habit of making any apology for the insufficiency of the proposer, however strongly I felt it, thinking it better to rely on the solidity of the grounds upon which my propositions rested, than to attempt conciliating attention by apologies. But I must confess on this occasion, whether from the growing diffidence of the public in public men; whether from the manner in which I have been recently spoken of in this assembly; whether from the nature of the debates which have lately taken place amongst us, in which a spirit of attack and recrimination has been manifested, by no means calculated to raise the character of this house [a loud cry of hear! hear!] whether from the disastrous state of the times, or whether from all these feelings combined, I never rose with so great a degree of diffidence and solicitude. If in my endeavours to bring back the gravity of debate—to get rid of the spirit of recrimination which has too long prevailed amongst us, and to retrieve the falling fortunes of this mighty empire —Here
Mr. Dennis Browne
of Mayo, moved the standing order for the exclusion of strangers; in consequence of which the gallery was immediately cleared, and strangers
735
Mr. Whitbread
proceeded to lay grounds for the motion he intended to offer, and stated as the reasons and objects of inquiry, the state of our Sugar-colonies, and the danger to which our East-India empire was exposed; he alluded to the mutiny at Vellore, and seemed to think it arose from a deeper and more general feeling, than the impolitic and ill-judged military regulations which had been assigned as its cause. The state of the sister kingdom, he also thought, should be inquired into in a committee of the whole house; he feared Ireland was not so cordial as she should be in our common cause, and he desired to place her in the same situation of loyalty and good affection and security as Devonshire or Yorkshire. He was aware that Catholic emancipation could not and ought not now to be farther attempted, but there were other means of allaying animosity, and conciliating affection; among many such means he should allude to that of a system of tythes which an hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Croker) who did not usually agree with his hon. friends, had allowed to be a subject of much consequence, and if carefully managed, pregnant with good effects. He should not dwell at greater length on this subject, because he felt it might be more effectually discussed hereafter, but beyond doubt that discussion in a committee on the state of the station was absolutely necessary. He would also assert that the extraordinary dissolution of the late parliament demanded an enlarged inquiry, and he insisted that the doctrines on which that and the preceding measures were sought to be justified, viz. that the king could at any moment act without an adviser, tended to despotism, and the subversion of the constitution. He disapproved of his majesty's late choice of ministers: he thought one of them (the chancellor of the exchequer) a person not likely to gain the confidence of Ireland; and he considered the right hon. secretary (Mr. Canning) as little calculated, from his temper, his feelings, and the whole course of his political life, to conciliate that country with which he (Mr. W.) should never cease to hope that negociations for peace might speedily be renewed. He ob-
736
Mr. Milnes
replied to the arguments of the hon. gent. He stated that the proposed inquiry would be vague and delusive; that it was an attempt to censure the late change of administration, and to embarrass the measures of government; that many of the grounds which had been urged by the hon. gent. for going into the committee, had equally existed, during the continuance of the late administration, when no such notice had been made by the hon. gent. or his friends; he represented the state of the country to be such as required the exertions of the united energies of all descriptions of its subjects, which it was the object of this motion to distract. Looking to our resources, to the patriotism and valour of the country, he saw nothing to fear, but much to expect. Were we to countenance the exertions of our allies by examples of British valour; were we to evince by our conduct a conviction of the fact, that the path of peace was only to be found under the arch of victory, he had no doubt but the ultimate issue of the contest would be honourable to the country. With a conviction of these truths on his mind, and for a variety of other reasons, he was so far from giving his support to the motion, that he should move that this house do now adjourn.
Lord Milton
said a few word nearly similar to those he had used on a former occasion.
Sir A. Pigott
went into a legal statement to shew the illegality of the doctrine of the king's acting without advisers, and drew a distinction between the sovereign in his executive and in his legislative capacities, and asserted strongly that it was in his executive capacity alone that the coronation oath was binding upon him.
Mr. Henry Smith
considered the proposed mode of inquiry to be of all others the least eligible, and indeed to be only brought forward for party purposes; he therefore thought it beneath the dignity and justice of the house to bend itself to such a proceeding: the present ministers had done nothing to forfeit the confidence of the country, and
737
Mr. Dennis Browne
apologized to the house for the haste and perhaps indiscretion with which he had obliged strangers to withdraw, but he trusted the house would pardon what had been occasioned by an impulse of surprise and sorrow at hearing the hon. mover talk of "the fallen fortunes of this country;" nor did the continuation of the hon. member's speech shew that his measure was so unnecessary or indiscreet as it might have been thought; for surely the manner in which he had treated the affairs of Ireland was not calculated to do good by being promulgated. He assured the house he had acted from the impulse of duty in this matter, with great personal pain and reluctance; a pain that would be greatly increased if he thought the house disapproved of his proceeding.
Mr. M. Montague
opposed the motion as tending, to no good practical end.
Mr. H. A. Herbert
said a few words in favour of the motion.
General Tarleton
went at some length into the details of the campaign in Poland, and expressed his confident opinion, that, in a military point of view, the position of Buonaparte was extremely critical.
Mr. William Adam
spoke in favour of the motion. He argued some of the legal points already touched upon by sir A Pigott. He observed freely on the state of Ireland, and concluded by shewing, by many examples, how constitutional the proposed measure was at all time, and how peculiarly useful it would be at this.
Mr. Wilberforce
opposed the motion, as nugatory and even dangerous. It stood on no good theory, and it tended to no good practice; the variety of topics which would divide the attention of a committee of the whole house, would tender it impossible to maintain any regular discussion, or to arrive at any useful conclusion; every gentleman would introduce his own favourite subject, and the committee would lose, its patience and its time in endless debate. But, really, from those party subjects, he wished gentlemen would turn their attention to the awful situation of public affairs. He had heard an honourable friend of his (Mr. Milnes) with great pleasure and admiration, but he would not be so sanguine in his hopes of the country, as the more ardent mind and the better spirits of his youthful friend caused him to be. He did fear much, and with that so-
738
Dr. Laurence
went over, at considerable length, the arguments already urged in favour of the original motion, and followed sir A. Pigott and Mr. Adam in the line of their arguments on the legal points which had incidentally arisen.
Mr. Bathurst
would opposes the motion as unnecessary, and in some degree impossible to be carried into effect. If inquiry was necessary, why not institute it on specific grounds? would it not tend to a more clear and satisfactory exposition, to consider each article that called for consideration, on its own single merits, than in the general and sweeping stile proposed by this motion. The right hon. member adverted to the opinion pronounced by him on a former occasion, viz. that there are particular conjunctures in which the king must act for himself: he had reconsidered, he said, this opinion, and he found himself strengthened in it by that reconsideration.
Sir J. Newport
made some observations on Mr. Wilberforce's speech, in which he attempted to correct some errors and mistatements of the hon. gent. He then proceeded to say a few words on the original
739
Mr. Croker
rose to defend the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) from the erroneous and uncandid reply of the right hon. baronet. He contended that Mr. Wilberforce's quotation of doctor M'Nevin was correct, and whatever might be his own opinion on the great question, he must say that the hon. member's statements were fully warranted and supported by the passages referred to. Mr. Croker replied to the several articles of Mr Whitbread's speech, and said that his surprise at this vague motion was the greater, from his knowing that there stood in the order-book of that house, notices for specific inquiry into almost every one of the topics which the hon. gentleman proposed to treat of in the indefinite and desultory stile inseparable from a committee on the state of the nation. He proceeded to refute the assertions and arguments of the hon mover, which, whatever he thought of them, had so pleased the gentlemen on the opposite side, that they had used no other, but had contented themselves with repeating the speech of the hon. mover. One learned doctor (Laurence) in particular, fearing, he supposed, that its strong sense and reasoning were too hot, pungent, and essential for common palates, had kindly diluted the hon. gentleman's arguments in a quantity of his own cool weak, and innoxions eloquence.—The hon. member, after observing in a strain of irony on the merits of the last administration, concluded by referring to Mr. Wilberforce's awful description of our political situation, by expressing a wish that we should excite no divisions at home to encourage enemies abroad, and that, while the farmer, the artizan, and the tradesman cheerfully contribute their little profits and comforts to the exigencies of the state, those whose superior fortunes rendered the payment of taxes no sacrifice to them, should contribute what their country did claim from their patriotism—the sacrifice of their passions, their prejudices and their parties, to the common interests of England and of Europe.
Mr. W. Smith
blamed the style of confident accusation which the last member had indulged in. That hon. gent.'s parliamentary experience was not long, and he thought it would not be too much to ask, that the hon. gent. should be more known to the hon. members, before he arraigned them so freely. After alluding to what had fallen from the hon, member for Yorkshire,
740
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
refuted the legal doctrines of the hon. gentlemen on the other side of the house. He insisted that occasions must and ought to occur in which the king could have no adviser, and must act from his own feeling and sense of duty; he would state a case to the house, which, he relied upon it, would, in their opinion, warrant his assertion; he would suppose that, on the very first occasion on which the noble lord opposite (Howick) had proposed a late celebrated measure to the consideration of the king, his majesty should have thought fit to tell the noble lord that he conceived the measure to be so mischievous, that he could no longer confide in the proposer of it. Suppose he had, at that very audience, and without quitting the noble lord, demanded from him the seals of office, and so dismissed him from his service, would it be asserted that, in this case, the king would not have acted for himself? would gentlemen say, that, in such a case, he must have had an adviser, where advice was impossible; and would it be asserted, that such a case as he now put was an improbable one? He relied not on this case alone, though that were enough, but any true constitutional principle, and all true constitutional practice, was also with him. He never denied, or would deny, the general principle that ministers were responsible for all acts done in their ministry; but he would deny that they were responsible for acts done before their ministry. What if the king of England should choose (he would for argument's sake suppose the case).capriciously or improperly to dismiss a minister, must the successor to that minister bear the responsibility of the dismissal he disapproved? If he were doomed to that responsibility, no man could accept the office, and the consequences would be, Unit no man in England could fill the employment, except the very man who had been dismissed, and who, from the difference between him and his sovereign, was the last man in England who should be called to it. But, though he thus chose to argue the matter upon principle, he would say that, in point of fact, he should have no hesitation or fear in taking upon himself the full responsibility of his majesty's late measures. Were the king now placed in a situation
741
Lord Howick
rose at that late hour, not to trouble the house very long; he would willingly have declined speaking altogether, but what fell from the hon. gentlemen on the other side imperiously demanded some notice. He asserted that the able speech of his hon. friend had not been answered; the observations of an hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Croker), professing to be in reply to his hon. friend, he thought contained more of fresh accusations against his majesty's late ministers, than of reply. The hon. gent. with sense force, undoubtedly, had pressed some points upon the house; but he must call upon that hon. gent. if he saw real grounds of charge against his majesty's late ministers, to bring it forward specifically and boldly, and
he
742
For Mr. Whitbread's motion
136
Against it,
322
Majority against it,
186
List of the Minority.
Anstruther, sir J.
calcraft, sir Granby
Adam, Wm.
Campbell,Col.
Althorpe, Lord
Campbell, col.
Abercrombie, hon. J.
Craig, J.
Aubrey, sir John
Dundas, Hon.Maj.
Anthonie, Wm. Lee
Dundas,hon.C.L
Bewicke, Calverley
Dundas,
Baring, Thos.
Daly, D. B.
Bagenell, Waler
Dillon, hon. H. A.
Butler, hon. J.
Elliott,
Butler, hon. C H.
Euston, Earl
Belnard, Scrope
Eden, hon. Wm.
Byng. George
Folkestone, lord
Barham, J. Foster
Frankland, Wm.
Basing, Alex.
Fitzpatrick, right. hon.
Biddulph, R. M.
Foley, col.
Bradshaw, hon. C.
Ferguson, General
Brand, hon. C.
Fitzgerald lord R. H.
Brand, hon. Thos.
Ferguson, General
Combe, H. C.
Fitzgerald lord R. H.
Calcraft, J.
Flemming, hon. C. J.
Creevey, Thos.
Forbes, lord
Cuthbert, R. J.
Grenfell, P.
Cavendish, G. H. C.
Greenhill, R.
Cavendish, Lord G. H.
Grattan, right hon. H.
Cavendish, Wm.
Howard, hon. W.
Calvert, N.
Halsey, W.
743
Howick, lord
O, Hara, C.
Howard, Henry
Pierse, Henry
Hughes W. L.
Pollington, lord
Hamilton, lord A.
Phillips, R. M.
Jekyll, J.
Pigott, sir A.
Jervoise, C. J.
Pym, Francis
Jones, Love P.
Petty, lord H.
Knapp,—
Pelham, hon. C.
Knox, hon. Thos.
Ponsonby, hon. G.
Laurence, Dr.
Parnell, Henry
Leach, John
Prittie, hon. Wm.
Lemon, sir W.
Power, R.
Lemon, capt.
Quin, hon. W.
Lambton, R. J.
Ri
Lemon, John
Romilly, sir Sam.
Littleton, hon. W.
Russell, lord W.
Lushington, S.
Sheridan, rt. hon. R. B.
Laing, Malcolm
Shelly, Henry
Latouche, R.
Smith, John
Latouche, J.
Smith, W.
Lambe, hon. W.
Smith, G.
Mahon, lord
Stanley, lord
Mackdonald, James
Sharpe, R.
Markham, J.
Shipley, Col.
Miller, sir Thos.
Scudamore, R. P.
Madocks, W. A.
Savage, F.
Moore, P.
Somerville, sir M.
Mills, Wm.
Taylor, M.A.
Morpeth, lord
Temple, earl
Milbanke, sir R.
Templetown, lord
Mostyn, sir Thos.
Townshend, lord J.
Milner, sir Wm.
Talbot, col.
Milton, lord
Tracey, Hanbury
Maule, hon. W.
Williams, O
Maxwell, W.
Wynne, sir W. W.
Meade, hon. J.
Wynne, C. W. W.
Martin, H.
Whitbread, Samuel
Nugent, sir G.
Wharton, J.
North, Dudley
Williams, sir R.
Newport, r hon. sir John
Ward, hon. J. W.
Neville, hon. R.
Wardell, col.
Ossulston, lord
Warrender, sir G.
O'Callaghen, Col.
Walpole, hon. G.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, July 7.
[MINUTES.]
The Speaker called the attention of the house to a letter which he had received from Mr. Galway Mills, a member of the house; which he read from the chair, as follows:—"Temple Place, Black-friars Road, July 6. Sir, I have to inform you, and through you to submit to the house, that I was in arrest with the Marshal of the King's Bench, upon mesne process, previous to my being returned to the present parliament for the borough of Midshal, and that I still continue under the same restraint. Under these circumstances, I beg to submit my case to the house, that it may afford me that redress, and adopt the proceedings, which the occasion will seem to it to require. I have the honour to be, &c." On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the proceedings upon Mr. Speed's case (Dec. 1795) were read, He supposed
744
[STANDING ORDER FOR THE EXCLUSION OF STRANGERS.] Mr. Sheridan
said, no person was more disposed to respect the general standing orders of the house than he was, and he was sure that when any member moved that any of these orders should be enforced, it was from the impulse of the best motives. The proceedings, however, which were sometimes adopted with respect to the order for the exclusion of strangers, seemed to him to require to be explained, and to be placed on more satisfactory grounds. When it was considered that strangers were, by the standing order, never to be admitted, no construction of that standing order could be interpreted into a right of commanding those to withdraw, who were to he presumed not to be present. The words of the standing order were not to admit strangers, and if any stranger intruded, the order provided that he should be taken into custody by the serjeant at arms. He did not think it right that a matter of such moment should he left in so undefined a state, and after what had happened yesterday, it became more necessary than ever to come to a fixed understanding upon it. If the public was not to be allowed to know what the state of the nation was, it was hard to say what it should be allowed to know. He therefore gave notice, that he meant on Friday to draw the attention of the house to this subject.
Mr. Dennis Browne
was extremely sorry if any thing had fallen from him contrary to the general sense of the house. The fact was, that he had not moved that the gallery should be cleared, but on hearing things fall from the hon. gent. which he thought might be injurious, if suffered to go abroad, he thought it his duty to notice that there were strangers in the house; and it appeared, that when once such a deviation from the standing order was noticed, there was no discretion for him, or for the Speaker, or for the house; it must necessarily and immediately be enforced.
The Speaker
said, that as this matter was mentioned, he thought it his duty to state what was the present practice and usage of the house, and what, as being the usage, he thought it his duty to adopt and enforce,
745
Mr. Whitbread
wished the ancient and established usage on this head to remain unaltered, for, although he deprecated, as much as his hon. friend, the exclusion of strangers, he was satisfied no new arrangement with respect to them would be equally conducive to the dignity and the convenience of the house. The right of exclusion had been seldom exercised, and in the course of his experience, he had never known it to he exercised with advantage. The exclusion of last night was particularly unwise. It seemed the hon. gent. thought something that he had said would have an injurious effect on the public mind, if suffered to go abroad. But the expression, whatever it was, that struck the hon. gent. as improper, did go abroad. If what he had said was capable of refutation, it ought to go abroad, accompanied by the refutation. If it could not be refuted, it ought to go abroad with the authority of incontrovertible truth. The member who enforced the right of exclusion ought to be sure that he exercised it with a sound discretion.
[PLACES, PENSIONS, SINECURES, &c. HELD BY MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT.] Lord Cochrane
rose in pursuance of the notice he had given; in doing which, he was influenced by no other motive than that of an anxious wish to discharge a great public duty. If his motion was acceded to, the result would prove, whether there was any possibility of making those who had lived
746
747
Mr. Bankes
thought the information desired by the noble lord desirable in many respects; but it would be neither practicable nor proper to pass the order in its present shape. There was no precedent of such an order on the Journals, though the house had frequently thought it right to interpose and check the excessive or improper distribution of salaries, pensions, and emoluments, derived from the public. So extensive a field of inquiry could hardly be reduced to any of the known rules adopted by committees of the house. The places held by members of parliament were besides known, and the pension list was either regularly laid on the table every session, or might be on the motion of any member. The committee in which he had the honour to preside (the Committee of Finance) had ordered the pension list to be laid before it, and would proceed to examine the circumstances connected with it in the next session. It was invidious and improper to convey to the public an insinuation, that members of parliament were influenced by considerations of private advantage for themselves or their dependents. He knew no ground, for casting at the present time an imputation never cast at any former time. For it was most essential, that at this critical period, the character of the house should not be degraded or depreciated. It was also unfair, as well as impolitic and unpatriotic, to depreciate the resources of the country, as the noble lord had done, by stating that we were on the verge of bankruptcy. Though sensible of the difficulties of the times, and of the relief arising from the judicious suspension of taxation, every man of judgment, who considered the situation of the country, would allow there were ample resources to meet the difficulties that we had to encounter. He did not see how the advertisements for the purchase and sale of seats, in a certain assembly, should be construed into an argument of the general corruption of members of parliament. He agreed with the noble lord, that the public servants, and particularly those of the higher classes, were rather under than overpaid. There was only one species of pensions, which it was necessary to inquire particularly into. Within the 3 last years the several public departments had got into the practice of granting pensions within themselves,
748
Mr. Curwen
had hoped the noble lord's motion would have passed without a dissenting voice. He had hoped some measures would be taken to put an end to the disgraceful scenes that had formed the subject of such discreditable crimination and recrimination a few nights since. It was no objection that there was no precedent; the unprecedented state of the thing was a stronger ground for the investigation. When the exigency of the times was such as to require the exertion of every arm, the want of precedent was not to be pleaded in bar to the satisfaction due to the public mind. The Finance Committee had an extensive range of enquiry before it, and ought not to suffer a day to elapse without reporting something. That committee was not constituted exactly as he thought it should be; as the change was made, he had no objection to the gentlemen introduced. The practice of granting pensions without the controul of the treasury or the exchequer, was a stronger ground of inquiry. When it was recorded on the journals, that seats in the house were bought and sold like bullocks in Smithfield market (Mr. Horne Tooke's petition), it was too much to find fault with the noble lord for adverting to newspaper advertisements. He complained that the power of the crown had greatly increased since it had been declared to be already excessive; and as a friend to the democratic part of the constitution, he wished to see that excessive power reduced within proper bounds. The excess of power rendered it insecure; and when the influence of corruption and weakness was combined with the operation of that excessive power, the danger was enhanced, and the mischief aggravated. While he said this, however, he did not go the length of the individual (sir F. Burdett) who had so rashly expressed himself in wishing to see the accursed leaves of the Red Book destroyed. He conceived that that person must not have been well acquainted with the nature of that book. It was one which differed materially from the Livre-Rouge in France;
749
Mr. Whitbread
hoped, that as there was no doubt that an opinion prevailed as to the existence of much corruption in the house, the motion would be so framed, as to refute that opinion, or at least to shew in what degree and in what instance it was warranted. The object of the noble lord seemed to be, to place under one collected view, a mass of information now detached, and in many instances inaccessible. If the motion was referred to the committee of finance, with an instruction to inquire into and report upon the matter contained in it, the report would probably be of a most useful description.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that no opposition would be made to the motion, if the noble mover would assent to a modification, such as was suggested from the other side. It was his wish to give all possible information. To call for a return of all those connected with members of parliament would be to lead to an endless list of persons, from which no practical result could be derived. Officers in the army and navy, for instance, and on the half pay would be included. If the matter was referred to the committee, it might inquire not only into pensions held by members of parliament, which would be distinguished by the names, but into all pensions, by whomsoever held. The lists of pensions and places might be had from the different departments; but, if the inquiry of the committee was deemed satisfactory, he saw no objection to it. He thought the motion ought to be extended in some respects, and narrowed in others, in order to give it a useful and not unnecessary range. The crown being allowed the power of granting pensions to a certain amount, it would be competent to inquire before the report of the committee, as well as after, whether the pension list ought to be reduced. The house having fixed the amount to be granted, he questioned whether it would be right to canvass the propriety of every individual grant. He did not know whether the course be proposed fell in with the views of the hon. gentlemen opposite. He looked
750
Lord Ossulston
was of opinion that it was most desirable the house and the country should be acquainted with the facts, whatever they might be. He thought that the noble lord's motion did not go far enough, and was afraid that the return to it would not be completely satisfactory to the public.
Mr. J. Smith
had extensive communications with his numerous constituents; and he was sorry to say, that their sentiments, and especially the sentiments of the middling class, were not favourable to the independence of parliament. An opinion certainly prevailed that the house of commons was not so independent as it ought to be. For his part, he had a high opinion of the character of parliament; and he was anxious that the motion might be agreed to, in order to prove how small was the number of corrupt. He differed completely from an hon. gent. who had spoken against the increasing power of the crown. At the present awful moment, it would be most injudicious to diminish it. He was as adverse to the diminution of the power of the crown at that moment, as he was to the disunion of the people by a religious cry.
Mr. Lethbridge
complimented the fairness with which the chancellor of the exchequer had met this question. He Was glad that such a motion had been brought forward, because he knew many populous districts in his county who were open-mouthed about pensions and places; this motion, if adopted, would tend to undeceive them, by shewing, that they did not extend to that degree as to endanger the safety of the country.
Mr. Littleton
defended the noble lord's motion, against the objections of the hon. gent., who had said that there was no precedent for such a step. Were not the times unprecedented? It was worth while at a period like the present, when the minds of the people were so full of suspicions at least to endeavour to shew that they were without foundation.
Sir J. Sebright
would support the noble lord's motion, or something resembling it, because the public entertained doubts on this
751
Mr. W. Smith
thought that the adoption of this motion would tend to strengthen the constitutional power of the crown, and he agreed that this was not the time to weaken that constitutional power. At the same time, he did not so well approve of the mode proposed by the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, nor did he approve of referring this motion to the Committee of Finance, who had already enough upon their hands; considerable time must therefore elapse before any return could be made by them, or else other things which they had in hand must be neglected. He wished a committee to be appointed for the express purpose of carrying into execution the object of this motion. He was not sanguine enough to suppose that any curtailing of pensions would cause any diminution of the public burdens, as they are felt by individuals; for when 50 millions a-year were required to be raised, even supposing £50,000 a year could possibly be diminished from the pension list, no remedy could thereby be afforded to the burdens of the individual; but the public, if encouraged to hope for this, would reap the advantage of those schemes for the national advantage, so necessary in the present posture of affairs. He had the authority of Judge Blackstone to say, that it was the duty of the house to inquire into the amount and circumstances of the pensions granted by the crown; and he considered that it was also competent to the house to inquire into the specific grants, as well as the number of sinecure places and reversions. He denied the position, that the man who had a reversionary interest in a place, had a sort of freehold in which the public had no interest. If there existed certain patent places which originally were for small sums, but had now grown into enormous ones, and these held by persons who could have no claim to such places, in his opinion the continuance of them formed proper subject of inquiry by parliament. If the salary of a person who held an official situation under government was not sufficient, he would willingly increase it, for he thought there should be no monopoly of important offices to a wealthy aristocracy, otherwise no man could accept an office, who had not a handsome fortune of his own. He thought it was a mischievous practice to
752
Mr. Wilberforce
after adverting to the integrity and independence of his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes), expressed his regret, that he should have said any thing on the present occasion, which might have the appearance of a desire to prevent inquiry. It was highly gratifying to him, and must be so to the noble lord (Cochrane), to see that his motion was received with general approbation, and that there appeared to be scarcely any difference, except as to the form. He thought the mode proposed by the chancellor of the exchequer the most proper, but differed from him as to the grants by the crown, which might be examined, though not malignantly nor invidiously. With regard to the salaries of public men, he thought that here, too, a prudent parsimony ought to prevail, for it ought to be considered that they were paid not only by their salaries, but by the distinction they enjoyed, and the opportunity of transmitting their names to posterity as faithful and able servants of the public. Yet he thought that they ought to have pensions upon retirement, upon the same principle, that officers in the army and navy had halt-pay. He was convinced that nothing was better calculated than openness and fair dealing, to make public Men and parliament stand well in public opinion, and he was glad that this motion had been made, as it would tend to secure that object. But there was a danger of hunting too eagerly after popularity. The circumstance that rendered popular governments more capable of great exertions than others, was the affection of the people to their institutions, and their consequent willingness to bear the public burthens. It was, therefore, of the last importance that the house of commons should stand well with the considerate part of the community, particularly with the middle classes, which formed the most valuable part of it. If an idea had gone forth that there was a great deal of corruption in that house, it was desirable that the public should be satisfied that there, was a great deal more independence in it than was imagined. This motion came rather suddenly, and he was desirous to adjourn the debate fur two or three days, to consider about the most proper mode of attaining the object in view (a cry of no, no!). He doubted whether it ought to be referred
737*
Mr. Sheridan
observed, that the noble lord very wisely had not prefaced his motion with much argument, because, if he comprehended him rightly, his object was not so much to diminish the public expenditure, as to ascertain the degree of influence which the crown possessed in that house. As to the mode proposed by the right hon gent., it appeared to him to be a most round about way to go into the general investigation of the subject, to obtain a list of all the places, pensions, &c. enjoyed by different individuals, and from that list to select the names of the members of that house who participated in them. Why not the individual list called for by the noble lord? Every gentleman seemed to be tender upon this subject; but the only way to convince the public that its suspicions were unfounded, was not to mask the matter, but to shew at once what part of the house received these emoluments, and what part did not. In his opinion it was much better that government should expend fifty, aye, a hundred and fifty millions of money annually in the general service of the country, than that they should expend 50,000l. in the house of commons. He objected to any alteration in the noble lord's motion. If the result of the production of the list, for which the noble lord had moved, should be to astonish those who were not disposed to think very favourably of the house of commons, it would be most fortunate; but if, on the contrary, it should be found that there was an incredible number of members who either directly or indirectly derived advantages from sources not the most pure, that was a fact which ought to be known to the people. At any rate let not the question be blinked.
Mr. Huskisson
adverting to some observations made in an early stage of the debate, wished to set himself right with the house. While now in place, he did not enjoy the pension which had been granted to him on his formerly quitting office.
Mr. Calcraft
said he would not trouble the house long. The noble lord's proposition was, that a list of the members who were directly or indirectly under the influence of ministers, should be laid on the table. If there were persons who had their patrimony out of the public money, it was
738*
Mr. George Rose
with great warmth, said, that the extent of his rewards for public services were well known to the public. He challenged inquiry, and wished that the terms of the present motion might be rendered as satisfactory as possible.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
then proposed as an amendment; that a committee should be appointed to investigate the subject, and that it should be an instruction to the committee to examine into all places, pensions, &c. in the words of the original motion, except into commissions and appointments in the army and navy, and into places in the revenue, not exceeding, £200 a year in value.
Lord Cochrane
replied shortly to the arguments that had been urged. His motive was not the expectation of great national saving, but because a general feeling existed in the country of the corruption of the house of commons. As to commissions in the army and navy, he knew that the latter had been given for votes in that house; and it had been found by some, that the best way to obtain preferment was, to buy a house or two in a contested borough: for his part, he was actuated only by a desire to serve his country. The assent to his motion would tend to establish ministers in their situations; for, though they should secure all the votes in the house, they could not keep their places long against the current of public opinion, which would set against them if they negatived it. The Committee of Finance, had sufficient business already. If, after the committee for which he moved should have made their report as to the members, it should be thought desireable to have an alphabetical list of all places, pensions, &c. he should have no objection. It would be an
739*
Mr Whitbread
declared, that as the noble lord did not wish to depart from his original motion, he would certainly support him.
Lord Henry Petty
expressed great satisfaction to find, that whatever difference of opinion existed in that house with regard to the form of the motion, there was but one opinion as to the propriety of giving information to the public upon a subject of such vital importance. This general concurrence of sentiment would make a most favourable impression upon the public mind. He objected to referring the matter to the committee of finance, and would vote for the original motion.
Mr. Secretary Canning
observed, that the house by referring this matter to the committee, would not interfere with its functions, because the committee would only have to issue their precept for the returns to the public offices, and to lay these returns before the house. He objected to that part of the noble lord's statement which asserted, that officers in the army and navy acquired promotion by their seats in that house. This charge appeared to have been made lightly, and the best refutation of it would be to refer the noble lord to a comparison between the naval officers who had seats in that house, and those who had gloriously earned their seats in the other house, and he was sure the noble lord would then be convinced, that there was no reason to complain upon this head.—The question being loudly called for, the house divided; For the Original "Motion, 61. Against it, 90. Majority 29.
List of the Minority.
Abercrombie, hon. J.
Cuthbert, R. J.
Adam, Wm.
Cavendish, lord G. H.
Agar, capt.
Cavendish, Wm.
Aubrey, sir John
Cavendish, G. H. C.
Biddulph, R. M.
Dundas, hon. Maj.
Bradshaw, A. C.
Dickenson, W.
Brand, Thos.
Eyre, major
Bernard, Scrope
Foley, colonel
Creevey, Thos.
Folkestone, visc.
Calvert, Nicholson
Greenhill, Rob.
Calcraft, John
Halsey, Henry
Cochrane, Lord
Hughes, W. L.
Howard, Henry
Lemon, colonel
Jekyll, Jos.
Lushington, Step.
Johnstone, C.
Lloyd, colonel
Johnstone, G. A.
Lethbridge, T.B.
Leach, John
Miller, sir Thos.
740*
Mahon. lord
Russel, lord Wm.
Maxwell, Wm.
Stanley, lord
Morpeth, viscount
Sabright, sir John
Moore, P.
Smith, Wm.
Milbanke, sir R.
Smith John
Madocks, W. A.
Saville, Albany
North, Dudley
Sheridan, R. B.
Ossulston, visc.
Somerville, sir M.
O'Hara, Chas.
Ward, hon. J. W.
Pigott, sir A.
Wardell, colonel
Parnell, H.
Western, C. C.
Pierse, H.
Warrender, sir G.
Petty, lord H.
Whitbread, S.
Quin, hon. W.
Mr. N. Calvert
disapproved of these instructions, as calculated to restrict the exertions of the committee of finance. Circumstances might occur in the course of their investigations, which might render the instructions proposed an impediment to those pursuits for which that committee was appointed.
Lord Cochrane
proposed as an amendment, that the inquiry of the committee of finance should be forthwith, and that it should be limited to the places and sinecures at present held by members of that house and their immediate friends.
Mr. W. Smith
thought an order of the house to every public office to produce the lists in question, would do better than adopting the motion as it now stood. He hoped the motion would be so worded as to instruct the committee immediately to proceed in the inquiry in question, or that it would be withdrawn, and the papers be called for by an order of the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said he had already stated, that he at first thought of this mode of proceeding; but it afterwards occurred to him that the committee might be able to direct the attention of the house to something in the accounts which might escape his observation. He could not forbear observing how unfortunate he had been, after having adopted the suggestion of the hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread) that that gent. should have abandoned his own opinion the
741*
Mr. Whitbread
said, in answer to the allusion to his conduct, that concurring as he did in principle with the noble lord who had brought forward the motion, and differing from him only as to the mode of proceeding, he submitted the suggestion which he had thrown out to the noble lord, and not to the right hon. gent. The right hon gent. had indeed fallen in with his (Mr. W's) suggestion as to form; but it did not from thence follow, that he must agree in the motion of the right hon. gent. to the principle of which he objected. He thought the right hon. gent. would better consult the feelings of the public by agreeing to the original motion. He hoped at least the right hon. gent. would allow his motion to be so altered, as that the committee should be instructed to proceed forthwith, and that they should also in their report distinguish those sinecures, &c. which were held by members of that house, so that the noble lord's motion might not be entirely evaded. The noble lord unquestionably meant that there should be exhibited during the present session of parliament a list of all the members of that house holding sinecure offices, places, &c. under government, and in that way liable to have their conduct influenced. If such a return was not made the house would disgrace itself. Those who respected the house at present would suspect that all was not right, and those who already suspected them would have their suspicions confirmed.
Mr. Bankes
wished that the accounts might be ordered to be laid before the house, that the committee might not fall into disgrace. It was impossible they could report this session, and it was equally impossible to say how early they might be able to do so in the next. If the returns were to be made to the house, no time would be lost in completing them, and then if it was thought the committee could be of service, it would be time enough to refer the papers to them. It would be but doing them slender justice, to allow the delay which might take place in making the returns to seem to attach to the committee.
Mr. Sheridan
thought it impossible, after what had fallen front the chairman of the committee of finance (Mr. Bankes), that the chancellor of the exchequer could persevere in his motion, or if he did so, that the house would support him in it. It was nothing but an evasion of the noble lord's motion. Its object was to see how many members of
742*
Mr. Wilberforce
was surprised at the great change Which had so lately taken place in the language of gentlemen on the other side. Lately they confessed that there was little or no difference in the object which seemed to be in view by all parties, and that the form was the only obstruction to unanimity. Now they had all at once discovered, that the motion of his right hon. friend the chancellor of the exchequer, was calculated only to evade and defeat the object which the noble lord had in view. He contended that the motion of the chancellor of the exchequer was completely adapted not only to the object sought to be gained, but that the evidence to be obtained by it might also be of importance in other respects.
Dr. Laurence
lamented to see gentlemen who talked so much of their independence, and prided themselves on that circumstance, so entirely forget in what it consisted as to lend their countenance to a deception on the public.
Mr. Rose
supported the motion, maintaining that all the places, pensions, &c. were already well known, and that sinecures were not now so numerous as they had been.
Mr. Calcraft
observed, that such a list as that now spoken of, might, if any person Were to give himself the trouble to do so, be collected from papers that were already on the table of that house. The object of the motion he conceived to be simply this, to bring fairly before the house in one point of view the names of all the members of that house, who either held places or enjoyed pensions, or else whose wives or children derived a similar emolument from the crown. He could not avoid remarking, by the way, the great activity of the member for Yorkshire (Mr. Wilberforce) in interposing with his shield in behalf of those who were in that situation. With regard to the right hon. gentlemen on the Treasury bench, he might certainly find some room to compliment them on their ingenuity upon this occasion; but he was certain that they had not left him the smallest opportunity to compliment them on a much more solid qualification—their sincerity.—The house then divided, when
743*
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, July 8.
[EAST INDIA COMPANY'S BONDS.] Mr. Grant
presented a petition from the Directors of the East India Company, praying for leave to bring in a bill to raise an additional sum on bonds, until the increase of their capital authorised by parliament took place. On his moving that the petition be referred to a committee of the whole house,
Mr. Creevey
rose and declared, that this was the first instance in which any public body had made such a request to parliament, without the production of the necessary documents on which it was founded. In 1772, an attempt was made by the ministry of the day to bring in a similar bill, but this attempt was defeated by general Burgoyne, who contended that an explicit account of the reasons which called for such a measure, ought first to be laid before the house. He trusted that the house would pursue a similar mode of conduct in the present instance, and that a complete disclosure of the state of the company's affairs would now take place; especially when it was recollected, that there were two India budgets in arrear.
Mr. R. Dundas
observed, that the hon. gent. was under a mistake in this business, and that the precedent of 1772, adduced by him, was not in point. The East India Company only wanted to raise by bond what they had been already authorised to raise in capital. With respect to the state of their affairs, that might be discussed in the committee of the whole house, to which his hon. friend had moved that the petition should be referred. As to the budget, it was his intention to-morrow to move for the papers which ought long ago to have been on the table of the house, and which it was not his fault were not so.
Mr. Peter Moore
observed, that the company were precluded, under two acts of parliament, from extending their debt beyond a certain sum. An act, of 1793, bound them to extend it no farther than 1,500,000l: but an act of the very next year allowed them to increase it to 3,000,000l. That debt remained to this hour undiminished; and the act of parliament was as imperative against their extending their debt now, by the issue of bonds, as by any other mode. It was for the house to consider how far it was wise to extend the existing
744*
[COMMITTEE OF PRIVILEGES—MR. GALWAY MILLS.] Mr. Rose
brought up the report of the Committee of Privileges, to Whom the letter addressed by George Galway Mills, esq. to the Speaker of the house of commons, and the petitions presented against the said G. G. Mills, esq. had been referred. The report stated, that the committee had examined and found that the said G. G. Mills, esq. was a member of the house of commons, and that he was then in the custody of the marshal of the King's Bench. The committee had consulted precedents, and had abstained from examining the allegations contained in the petitions which had been referred to them, conceiving that even had these allegations been proved, that would not have influenced their judgment, or prevented them from coming to the resolution which they had adopted, namely, that the said G. G. Mills, esq. was entitled to the privileges of parliament. He then moved that the house do agree with the committee in that resolution.
Mr. P. Moore
as a member of the committee, and as having himself presented a petition to the house against Mr. Mills, stated a few points, which in his opinion, the house, duly regarding its own honour and dignity, circumstances much more important than the privileges of an individual, ought deliberately to consider. The petition to which he alluded had been presented by him with the concurrence of the person against whom it was directed, and for whose interests he and others had exerted their utmost efforts; those efforts had been fruitless; because that hon. gent. did not chuse to abide by his own propositions. Mr. Mills's debts, of various descriptions, exceeded £30,000. Not one of his creditors wished to interfere with the privileges of parliament; but they thought, and certainly they were justified in thinking, that while the house of commons attended to the preservation of their privileges, they should also attend to the demands of justice, and to the preservation of their credit with the public. As far as time would allow, the committee had examined all the precedents which appeared to bear upon the present subject, but in his opinion, not one was found that met the case stated in the petitions. The petitions contained this allega-
745*
Mr. C. Wynne
agreed most cordially to the report of the committee. The house was bound to support their privileges, which were given to them, not for their advantage, but for that of the country at large. The privileges which members of parliament enjoyed of freedom from arrest, was as good for the electors as for the elected; were it not so, many of the former might be unrepresented. There was not a single instance on the Journals of the house, refusing the privilege when clearly defined.
Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
thought that a special report ought to have been made by the committee on an inspection of the petitions which contained so strong a charge on the character of one of the members of that house: they stated that he had procured a seat in that house for the express purpose of enabling him to evade the payment of his debts and to escape to the West Indies. He understood that four or five persons now in the King's Bench were anxiously waiting the decision of the house, in order that if that decision were favourable to Mr. Mills, they might avail themselves of his example, and take similar steps in order to relieve themselves from similar embarrassments. He entreated the house, for their credit's sake, before they ordered liberation of this gentleman, either to refer the petitions back to the committee, or to take the subject into their grave and serious consideration.
Mr. Ellison
declared, that the committee had entered upon this subject with feelings as allied to the foulness of the case, as could possibly be entertained. If the allegations of the petitions were proved against Mr. Mills, he thought that no hon. member ought to sit in the house with him; but he also thought, that, circumstanced as they were, the committee could do no more than they had done. Although he was of opinion that it would be better to consider this subject
746*
Mr. Barham
deprecated any interference with the privileges of the house on this single case. If it could be proved that Mr. Mills had procured his election for fraudulent purposes, that would be a fit subject for the consideration of an election committee. He thought that Mr. Mills had been rather hardly treated, in having such grave accusations urged against him in his absence, when he was unable to reply to them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
declared, that it was impossible not to approve the conduct of the committee, in refraining from entering into the allegations of the petitions. Mr. Mills's letter had been referred to them to ascertain the facts which it contained, and not to consider the law dependant on those facts which had never been questioned. Even had such a special report been made, as was wished for by an hon. gent.., and had the allegations been found proved, still the house must have granted the privilege. What the law was, and what it ought to be on revision, were too very different considerations. On this subject he would at present say, that it would require some very strong arguments to induce him to believe that the public convenience and advantage would be promoted by the abandonment of this privilege of parliament, although he was aware that in some cases it was productive of private injury. Neither could he agree with the hon. gent. (Mr. Barham) that, if it could be proved that an election was procured for fraudulent purposes, such election must become void. If the charge against Mr. Mills, with the aggravating circumstances attending, could be substantiated (which, in justice to that gentleman, he must remark had not hitherto been done), it might amount to a question of expulsion; but even in that case, it would be proper that the accused should be within the walls to defend himself and his seat.
Mr. Herbert
spoke on the same side. He said the privileges of the house were the privileges of the people. Some of the most illustrious members of that house had been known to be in very poor circumstances; and if it were not for this privilege of freedom from arrest in civil suits, it would be in the power of any administration, by buying up the debts of a person who was so unfortunate as to be in that predicament, to
747*
Mr. W. Smith
observed that this was not a law, but a privilege of parliament, which it might dispense with or not, as it thought proper. Therefore, though the house should give it up in this case, it by no means followed that it must do so in other cases. If fraud was proved, the guilty person ought not to be allowed to take advantage of his own wrong. The committee were perfectly right in their report, but it was for the house to consider allegations. These, indeed, were not proved, but there was a prayer in the petitions for permission to prove them. The privileges of the house existed only for the benefit of the public, and rested on no other foundation. The only question, therefore, was, whether a greater general mischief would result from giving up this privilege in particular instances, than from maintaining it in its full extent.—The motion for agreeing with the committee in their resolution was then carried, as was also a motion by Mr. Rose, that the said G. G. Mills, esq. be discharged out of the custody of the Marshal of the King's Bench.
[SIR H. MILDMAY'S MEMORIAL.]—Sir H. Mildmay
rose pursuant to notice, to move that there be laid before the house a Supplement to his Memorial which was already upon the table. He took that occasion to state that he owed considerable acknowledgments to lord Sidmouth's government, for the fairness and liberality which he had experienced from it. His first offer had been made to the Barrack Office during that administration, but the whole of the business respecting the letting of his house, had taken place after that administration had gone out of office. His principal object in rising had been to move that there be laid before the house, certain letters which he had received from some individual of the Jury, that had awarded him the compensation for the injury his property had sustained. Of the whole of those who composed the Jury, he was not acquainted with the addresses of more than four, one of whom was the foreman. They were amongst the most respectable persons in the county. The hon. baronet then read extracts from these letters, which explicitly stated, that the 16 acres, with the house, were not included in the estimate of compensation; that the award did not preclude the hon. baronet from residing in, or disposing of the house; that of the 1300l. awarded by the
748*
Lord Howick
had no objection to the production of this paper, and he hoped it would prove as satisfactory as the statement just made by the hon. baronet, though he lamented that it did not appear to him yet as satisfactory as could be desired. There seemed to be some strange mistake in the case, because the hon. baronet had stated in his examination before the committee, that the 400l. a year was to procure him another residence; and now it was said to have been granted, on the general ground of enabling him to restore the land from the injury done by the works. If the sum had been awarded for the rent, it would have been an exorbitant allowance to make an award at the rate of 20l. per acre; and if for the land, the whole of the compensation ought to go to the tenants. But the hon. baronet in his examination had stated, that the 4001. per annum was to provide another residence for him; in this view, therefore, the statement did not appear to him to be satisfactory.
Mr. Secretary Canning
was surprised at so complete a misunderstanding in so plain a point. The fault he found with his hon. friend, was, that he had carried his delicacy too far in the steps he had taken to justify himself; unless it could be made out that he had had a corrupt understanding with the Jury, he was not more responsible for their
749*
[SALE OF COMMISSIONS IN THE ARMY.] Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
in pursuance of his notice, rose to move, "that there be laid before the house, an account of all sums of money that had been received for the Sale of Commissions, which at any time became vacant by death, dismission, or in consequence of the promotion of officers, who were not allowed to sell out, from the year 1795 to the present time, specifying the names of the persons by whom paid and received, and the uses to which those sums were from time to time applied, together with receipts which had been given for the same."
750*
Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
had no objection whatever to shape his motion in that form. He could assure the house, that in bringing it forward he had no other than a public object. He had never entertained the smallest suspicion, nor given the least credit to the malicious and unfounded reports which had been in circulation, against the illustrious personage at the head of the army. But he thought it his duty, as a representative of the people, to watch over the expenditure of the public money, and he looked upon these sums to be public money. The account he was persuaded ought to be laid annually before the house, especially if, as he understood, the sums received amounted to one million.—The motion was then agreed to.
751*
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, July 9.
[IRISH INSURRECTION BILL.]—Sir A. Wellesley
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill, for the suppression of Insurrection in Ireland, and to prevent the disturbance of the peace in that country. The house would remember, that the circumstances which preceded and attended the suppression of the rebellion in Ireland, had rendered stronger measures than the established laws afforded necessary in that country. An act was therefore passed by the Irish parliament, in 1796, to prevent unlawful assemblies, and to authorise the lord lieutenant on a report of the magistrates to proclaim any county where disturbances existed. That law required all persons in such counties to keep within their dwellings between the hours of sun set and sun rise, and gave to the magistrates the power of sending persons who should be found to offend against it on board his majesty's navy. The act had proved effectual for the suppression of the insurrection, as appeared from the acknowledgement of the leaders of that insurrection before a committee of the Irish parliament. But, though such a law might be necessary, it was the duty of that house to guard against the abuse of the powers which it gave. The bill he proposed to bring in contained the same provisions as the Insurrection act, with respect to the power of the lord lieutenant to proclaim disturbed counties, and the authority of the magistrates to arrest persons who should be found out of their dwellings between sun setting and sun rising; but, in order to prevent hardships to the subjects, the bill required that persons so arrested should be tried at the quarter sessions, by the magistrates and assistant barrister, assisted by a king's counsel, a serjeant specially sent down for that purpose. Besides this bill, he meant to move for leave to bring in another to prevent improper persons from keeping arms, by obliging all persons to register their arms, and authorising the magistrates to search for arms. These bills had been prepared by his predecessor, and the only difference was, that the bill of his predecessor gave a negative to the king's counsel or serjeant, which he proposed to take from him, as it appeared to him that such a negative would render the measure nugatory. He meant, however, to substitute a clause, which should, in case of any difference between the serjeant and the bench, suspend the execution of the decision of the magistrates, till the serjeant should
752*
Sir J. Newport
wished to know what was to be the duration of the bill?
Sir A. Wellesley
proposed 7 years, but his mind was not yet made up on that head.
Sir J. Newport
had asked the question, because he thought that the shortest possible duration should be given to bills which created such extraordinary powers.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
agreed with the hon. bart. that 7 years would be too long a period, for which to enact the bill.
Mr. Grattan
was concerned that a bill of that nature should be necessary. But this and every other such bill was a violent measure, and against the principles of the constitution. The period of such measures ought to be short, in order to shew to the people that they had at least a reversionary interest in the constitution. These measures could only be justified by an imperious necessity.
Mr. Sheridan
viewed this question in a very different light from his friends on the bench near him. His right hon. friend had said, that the measure could only be justified by an imperious necessity; now, it was that necessity which he wished to have clearly made out to exist before the measure was resorted to. It was no answer to him that the measure had been prepared by his friends. If it had, the Threshers were then engaged in their disturbances and administering unlawful oaths. Ireland was now on the contrary as loyally tranquil as any part of the empire.
Mr. Whitbread
thought that the measure had never been, and ought not to be, enacted for so long a period as 7 years. He found himself in different circumstances from his right hon. friend as to the measure; for he must look upon it as necessary, inasmuch as the committee of both lords and commons on both sides had agreed upon that point.—Leave was then given to bring in the bill, as also a bill to prevent improper persons from having arms in Ireland.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, July 10.
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.]—Lord Sidmouth
rose and observed, that he had attended the house for two days past, in the expectation of seeing in his place a noble lord, whose official situation enabled him to answer a question he wished to put. He was desirous of knowing, whether it was the intention of his majesty's government to pro-
753
Earl Bathurst
said, that the noble lord alluded to had not attended for these two days past, because he knew there was no business before the house which required his presence. He would, however, be in his place on Monday, and then the question of the noble viscount would doubtless receive a satisfactory answer.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, July 10.
[MINUTES.]
—Petitions were presented complaining of undue returns for Chippenham, Kincardineshire, Malden, Penryn, Beverley, Malmsbury, East Grinstead, Bridgewater, Christchurch, Newcastle-under-Lyne, and Westminster. The Petition respecting the latter was from the right hon. R. B. Sheridan, complaining of b
754
[NAVAL ABUSES ]—Lord Cochrane
rose and spoke as follows:— Sir; A wish to avert a part of the impending and hitherto accumulating dangers of my country, has induced me to resolve to move for certain papers relative to the naval service, not with a retrospective view to blame individuals, but that unnecessary hardships may cease to exist.—I am willing, sir, to believe that members of this house who are capable of doing justice to any cause, have remained ignorant of circumstances which for some years have embittered the lives of a portion of the community, I mean those employed in the naval service of their country; and as to the gentlemen of the naval profession who have seats here, I suppose they either left the service before the establishment of the system of which all employed grievously complain; or, that a degree of diffidence occasioned by the awe which this house at first inspires, has prevented any other from performing this important duty. I wish, sir, it had fallen into other hands. I lament that the means by which I have acquired a knowledge of the subject, has in a great measure, unfitted me for the task I have now undertaken but no personal considerations shall prevent my doing that which I consider for the benefit of my country. I shall be as brief as possible, but as the nature of some of the papers for which I am about to move is unknown to many members of this house, it will be necessary that I should give some explanation.— The first motion is, "That there be laid before this house, copies of all letters or representations made by the commanders of his majesty's sloop Atalante, and schooner Felix, received by capt. Keats, commanding officer off Rochfort, respecting the state and condition of those vessels and
755
756
757
expressed in days
758
emolument of prize money,
759
760
Sir Samuel Hood rose
and expressed his astonishment at the statements and observations which he had just heard; which really were such that he had hardly thought it possible that they could have come from so gallant an officer. If any thing of blame, said the hon. officer, attaches to the loss of the Atalante and the Felix, that blame is attributable to me and to commodore Keats. But the fact is, that the loss of the Atalante was not at all owing to her having been in a bad state. She drove ashore in a swell upon a fine day, and if she had not been sound, her crew could not have been saved. But the noble lord could not ascribe blame in consequence of this vessel's going ashore. For such an accident was no proof of neglect on the part of the officers. No censure could apply to them, any more than it could to the conduct of the noble lord himself, when he lost his ship some time since. A clear understanding of the case, therefore, was only necessary to refute this part of the noble lord's charges, and to shew that neither the officers nor any other person could be fairly blamed for the fate of the Atalante, for that fate was owing to an accident against which any commander, however vigilant, might be utterly unable to guard. Now, as to the Felix; that vessel perished in a gale of wind in St. Andero Bay, where she was sent with a flag of truce. She remained four days in the bay; and, had the soundest vessel in the navy been in
761
Admiral Harvey
followed on the same side. He deprecated the attempts made perpetually to harass a gallant meritorious old officer [a cry of hear! hear!] He had no hesitation in saying, that the grounds of attack appeared quite fallacious. For himself, he could confidently say, that he never saw any scarcity whatever of medicines, surgeons stores, or provisions, on board any ship that came under his observation.
Admiral Markham
never rose with more regret, because he did feel the utmost apprehension, that the effect of such a discussion as that provoked by the noble lord, would do material injury to the discipline of the navy. No redress had ever been applied for to the Admiralty upon any of the grounds stated by the noble lord; and in what condition, he would ask, was the navy to be placed, if an inferior officer could bring his commander in chief to the bar of that house. With respect to the time a ship ought to be at sea, that depended on
762
763
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
declared, that no grounds whatever had been made out for the motion, which it was so seriously to be lamented that the noble lord had thought it his duty to bring forward. The house of commons would ever be anxiously alive to the welfare and interests of the brave men of whom our navy was composed; but he was convinced, that it would at the same time be very backward in adopting such motions as the present, unless the perion who proposed them could distinctly state that he had taken all other means of redressing the grievances complained of unsuccessfully.
Mr. Windham
coincided completely in opinion with the right hon. gent. who had just sat down, and contended, that besides the just reasons for opposing the motion, which that right hon. gent. had stated, the noble lord had in no way whatever proved his assertions, but had been completely contradicted by the gallant admirals. He made an eloquent panegyric on earl St. Vincent, the history of whose whole life was a most brilliant answer to the accusations of his enemies.
Mr. Robert Ward
observed that the highest encomiums were due to that illustrious character earl St. Vincent. Illustrious character he must call him, because whatever opinion might be entertained of his civil services, there could be no difference of sentiment as to the glory of his professional career. He admitted also the high professional character of the noble lord who made the motion; but he was sorry that such a motion had been brought forward in this house, before complaint had been made through the proper channel. No man could cherish more than he would the power and the right of this house to examine into abuses; but when there was a channel by which application ought to be made in the first instance, he thought it unnecessary and improper to bring complaints before this house, before any effort was made to have them corrected in the most natural and ready way.
Sir Charles Pole
in reply to the implied
764
Mr. Sheridan
said, that he heard with regret and surprize, those assertions stated here, which he had heard on a former occasion; and he had thought from the manner in which the noble lord had at last dropped the accusations, that he had even convinced himself from the most authentic documents that he was wrong. He had read a letter from commodore Keats, taking the whole blame to himself, respecting some of the transactions, but where there was certainly no blame. And notwithstanding the boisterous manner in which the audience at the hustings at Covent Garden generally expressed their opinions, yet even they had rejected these clamours as dangerous, when they sufficiently understood their nature. They set their faces against them as out of time and place; as brought forward for manifest purposes, and not for the good of the public, and as attended with incalculable mischief, without being productive of any good. Sup-
765
Lord Cochrane
rose to reply and said:—I disclaim, sir, any motive whatever except a regard for the real interests of my country, though I am free to confess that I cannot help feeling in common with others the treatment received.—Improper motives have been imputed to me, and I might reply to one of those gentlemen who has denied facts which I can prove, that he was one of those who established this abominable system. What his abilities may be in matters not connected with the naval service, I know not; but in the navy it is understood to be a fact, that his noble patron, the earl St. Vincent, sent the master of the Ville de Paris to put his ship in some tolerable order [here there was a cry of order! order! from Admirals Pole, Harvey, and others. The Speaker observed, that
766
my
767
instant that she would steer,
at Lisbon,
at home.
768
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, July 11.
[ELECTION PETITIONS.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose in pursuance of his notice. He observed, that as the session would not be long, it would be inconvenient to take into consideration such Election Petitions as were likely to occupy any considerable length of time. He had thought it his duty to inquire into this subject, and he found that there was not one petition, on which the house could rely in this respect. He proposed, therefore, to discharge all the orders, for the purpose of nominally appointing subsequent days, at such a distance of time, as should shew the parties that the house did not intend to take petitions into consideration during the present session. If the parties to any of the Irish petitions could agree on the subject, it might be well to enter into the consideration of such of them as would require commissioners to be sent to Ireland, in order that the commissions might act during the vacation.—The several orders were then discharged, and, beginning with the petitions complaining of double returns, the various petitions were fixed for consideration, on the 9th, 1Oth, 11th, &c, of September.
769
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, July 13.
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.] Lord Sidmouth
rose, and expressed himself happy to see a noble lord (Hawkesbury) in his place, from whom he felt desirous to obtain an answer to a question, respecting which his uneasiness every day increased. The object of that question was to learn from the noble lord, if it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to propose any new measure for the Defence of the Country, or to follow up, on a more extended scale, the system that had already been adopted, so as to make it bear some proportion to the increasing dangers of the empire. He felt it his duty to take this step, in order to relieve not only his own anxiety, but the anxiety that every one must feel at a moment so alarming as the present: should he have the satisfaction to receive such an answer as he expected, then he should have to request the noble lord to state the time when it was likely such a proposition could be brought forward, adding his wish that it might he on an early day; for as the danger increased every hour, he thought it a matter of the most urgent importance, that it should be provided against without delay.
Lord Hawkesbury
was happy to be able to assure the noble viscount and the house, that the subject of the military state of the country had occupied the attention of ministers from their very entrance into office. It might not be proper at the present moment to enter into any explanation of the principle, or of the details of the measure they should have to propose, but the day was not distant when such an explanation should be amply given, and when reasons should be adduced for having deferred it till now. Indeed, on this very day it was expected that a notice would be given in another house, of the introduction of the measure to which the noble viscount had alluded.
The Earl of Suffolk
intimated the necessity of doing now much more than had as yet been attempted, towards the defence and security of the country. He had observed, with the greatest satisfaction, that on the part of the coast which he had lately visited, the system of the Martello towers had been considerably increased.
[AMERICAN INDEMNITY BILL.] Earl Bathurst
moved the order of the day, for the second reading of the bill to indemnify ministers for continuing in force the provi-
770
Lord Grenville
said, that after the sentiments he had already expressed respecting the subject of the breach of the law by issuing the order of council,he could not,without incurring the imputation of inconsistency, agree to the passing of this bill of indemnity. He fully concurred in that part of his noble friend's speech, in which he stated that no money could be levied in this country, without the consent and approbation of parliament. His noble friend, however, went a little farther, and contended that though the law was broken by the crown, no higher duties were levied than it was authorized to collect. Now, it did appear, from a paper which had been laid on their lordships' table, not above three minutes ago, that a system more favourable to the commerce of America, had been adopted, than would have been, if the laws had been observed. His lordship here referred to the document, to shew that in various instances, higher and lower duties had been levied, than the act for continuing the provisions of the former treaty authorized. The order of council remitted the duties upon some articles,
771
772
773
774
Lord Hawkesbury
was not anxious to defend the bill of Indemnity on precedents only, but on the grounds of the necessity of the case out of which it grew. Nor would he deny that that necessity arose from the necessity of the dissolution of parliament; for, as often as that topic should again he forced into discussion, so often should he insist on the absolute necessity of that measure. The real authors of that necessity were the very persons who have since so repeatedly and so acrimoniously inveighed against it; for when his majesty, in the legitimate exercise of his prerogative, thought proper to make the late change in his councils, the noble lords opposite him made an appeal to parliament, and brought the question to issue between themselves and their sovereign. What then was left to his majesty, but to appeal to the sense of his people, while the events which made that appeal necessary were still fresh in their recollection? How else was his royal prerogative to be supported? This was the fair, obvious, simple ground upon which the late dissolution rested, and the result had amply proved how well his majesty understood the disposition of his people in making that appeal. For never was their sense more clearly,distinctly, and unequivocally expressed. No means were left untried by the opposers of government, to
775
776
Earl Spencer
conceived the question to be, whether the necessity which it was admitted had occasioned the breach of the law, was forced on his majesty's ministers, or had been forced on by them. The noble lord opposite had said that his majesty having reason to be dissatisfied with his former servants, had exercised his undoubted prerogative in choosing others in their stead, and that the old servants of the crown had thereupon come to parliament with a statement of their case, thereby making an appeal to parliament on the differences which had occurred between them and their sovereign, and that his majesty had, in these circumstances, been advised to recur to the sense of the people. A more unfounded or a more erroneous statement than this, the noble earl contended, had never been made, as must be well known to the noble lord (Hawkesbury) himself. The fact was, that after certain confidential communications had taken place between his majesty and his late servants, in consequence of which a change in his majesty's councils had taken place, the new servants of the crown, betraying the trust reposed in them, had given garbled and unjust representations in the newspapers, and otherwise, of the conduct of their predecessors, and of the circumstances which had preceded their dis-
777
Lord Erskine
said, that it was a fundamental principle of the constitution of this country, that no act could be dune contrary to law, and for which the persons advising it were at the same time intitled to be indemnified, unless such breach of law was occasioned by an act of imperious necessity. If this was a case. of the kind, God forbid that it should be resisted for a moment! No man could question the right of the king to dismiss his servants, or to dissolve the parliament. These were undoubted prerogatives, but they were granted for very distinct purposes. If his majesty saw reason to question the conduct of his servants, he might dismiss them; or, if he saw reason to doubt the parliament, he might dissolve it, and take the sense of their constituents as to their conduct. But the law never intended that both of these prerogatives should be exercised at one and the same time, and with reference to each other. It was never in the contemplation of the constitution of this country, that parliament should be dissolved simply
778
The Lord Chancellor
maintained that the
779
780
Lord Carysfort
contended, that. the, order, of council was a violation of the law and the constitution, springing out of an act as ill judged as it was unnecessary, meaning that exercise of the prerogative in the dissolution of the late parliament, which ministers so unfortunately, in his opinion, advised. It was a dangerous doctrine, his lordship observed, to hold up the plea of necessity for that dissolution: he was exceedingly apprehensive that the precedent might lead hereafter to results destructive of the people's rights; and in such a way too, that even the authors of it might not be able to avert the consequences. It was giving such an enormous addition to the power of the crown, already too much increased, as might eventually bring this country into as complete subjection to the
781
The Earl of Limerick
wished to know what was that undescribed something so often alluded to, but not openly spoken out by the noble lord (Grenville)? Did he mean that we should now go to the Catholics in
formâ pauperis?
782
Lord Holland
considered the present crisis as pregnant with the greatest dangers; but he did not express himself so from fear, but from a conscientiousness of our having great exertions to make. He spoke not as a person having any particular local feeling or interest, but as feeling an equivalent interest for every part of the kingdom. The imputation of personal or factious motives, at such a crisis, was beneath any senator in that house to answer, or to attempt to vindicate himself from. Such grovelling sentiments he disdained to notice. The noble secretary of state had admitted the dissolution as entering into the question of the propriety of the conduct of the ministers. He had stated, that the American vessels could not come but by indulgence. But, was not all the money so raised, raised contrary to law? The raising of this money under such circumstances, foreseen by ministers when they projected the dissolution, was, under all its consequences, a very important consideration; and such practices were among the chief causes of the glorious battles fought for the country, in the reign of Charles I., in parliament. It was not merely to rescue us from enormous taxation, that such practices were opposed, but it was to preserve the constitution of king, lords, and commons: it was, in fact, to insure the sitting of parliament. He then proceeded to combat the arguments of the noble and learned lord, in favour of the necessity of the dissolution, upon which he animadverted. warmly.
783
784
formâ pauperis
785
786
Lord Sidmouth
observed, that the statement which had been made on this subject by his majesty's ministers, was so clear, that only one point remained to be explained, and chat was, why the duties levied by the order of council were higher than those levied by the expired acts. He allowed that the law had been infringed, and consequently that a material inconvenience had been incurred. Was the order of council a measure of political necessity, which it would have been criminal in ministers not to advise his majesty to adopt? He thought it was. At the same time, it was perfectly fair in those who disapproved of the dissolution, to tell ministers that they had put themselves into a situation, in which they were compelled to break the law, and that therefore they must abide by the consequences of their ill advice to his majesty to dissolve parliament. Every faculty and energy of the country ought to be called forth in this momentous crisis; but nothing could give him greater alarm than to see such concessions granted to the Catholics as seemed to be recommended by his noble friend who had just sat down. He contended that it was untrue to say we were a divided people. He had opposed the catholic measure, because he thought it pregnant with the utmost danger to the constitution; for, differing completely from his noble
787
Lord Redesdale
was adverse to any further concessions to the Irish Catholics, not so much. on account of the objection he entertained against the Catholic religion, as because there were certain political opinions which these Catholics held to be religious. These opinions they adopted in consequence. of their alliance with a falling poliatical party in Ireland, and to the influence of that party might he attributed all the disturbances which had so long agitated Ireland, and also all the difficulties which stood in the way of a complete conciliation of the Catholics. Between the Catholics of Ireland and those of this country, there did, the noble lord observed, exist a material difference is this respect. But he was sorry to perceive that of late years the English Catholics seemed to have adopted too much of the,political character of the Irish Catholics, notwithstanding the prudent and laudable resistance of some of their leaders. As the best means of more closely cementing the connection, between Ireland and this country, the noble lord earnestly recommended the speedy adoption of some measures to strengthen the Protestant establishment in Ireland, which he thought in a very precarious state at present. The difference between the Catholic religion in the two countries he conceived to be this, that in England it was felt to be a tolerated religion, while in Ireland it was the rival of the Established church.
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
in rising at so late an hour, said, that be felt the necessity of apologizing for trespassing upon the patience of the house; but the unexpected turn. which the debate had taken, and the observations that had been made upon the sentiments he had delivered on a former occasion, rendered it impossible for him to discharge his duty by a silent vote. The subject to which their lord-ships' attention had principally been directed, had little connection with the real question, viz. "The Act of Indemnity:" he should,however, so far advert to it as to declare that, in his opinion, the ministers had made out their case and consequently that the proposed bill should have:his sup-
788
789
their
their
790
791
parliamentary
792
793
Lord Grenville
disclaimed all intention of substituting Catholic for a Protestant establishment a Ireland: no man would, more decidedly oppose such a proposition, if it could possibly be made.
The Earl of Westmoreland
observed, that when he was lord lieutenant of Ireland, it concessions were made to the Roman-Catholics of that country; those concessions were authorised by the king and by the ministers of this country. As to the other principal point that had been urged in debate, the dissolution, parliament had already come to a decision on that head. He should, therefore, leave these questions their lordships' consideration without any observation on his part.—The question was then put and carried in the affirmative.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, July 13.
[MINUTES.]
New writs were ordered for Dorchester, in the room of the hon. C. A. Cooper,who had accepted the place of clerk of the ordnance; for Grantham in the room of Mr. Thoroton, who had accepted the place of clerk of the deliveries of the ordnance; for Youghal, in the room of lord Boyle, called up to the house of peers; and for st. Mawes, in,the,room of colonel Shipley,who having been also returned for the borough of Flint, had
794
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[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.] Mr. Whitbread
brought up his bill for promoting
795
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
in reply to the hon. gent., rose to do that, which it had previously been his intention to do, as soon as that hon, member should have sat down; namely, to give notice on the part of his noble friend, the secretary of state for war and the colonies, to, bring forward a, motion on Friday next, relative to the military state o f the country. He should he sorry, therefore, that the observations which had fallen from the hon. gent. should induce the house to suppose, that Friday was an inconvenient day for that purpose. He could see no reason why his noble friend might not on Friday open his plan to the house, because that plan could not be carried into effect without a bill, in the various stages of which there would be frequent opportunities, during the course of next week, of discussing its merits. But if it should be the feeling of the house, or even the wish of the hon, gent., himself, that the motion of his noble friend should be deferred to Monday, he had no hesitation to say, that his noble friend would not have any objection to put off his motion to that day. If, on the contrary, the house should feel that no inconvenience would arise from having the general exposition of
796
Mr. Whitbread
though desirous of being present at all the stages of so important a question, did not feel disposed to object to the course proposed by the right hon. gent. But he begged leave to submit, whether the proposition of the noble lord might not be made on Friday, and the discussion upon it adjourned to the Wednesday following.
Lord Howick
expressed his entire acquiescence in the arrangement proposed by the right hon. gent., and declared himself personally obliged to him for his early communication to him of the intention of the noble lord, respecting the important motion which he was to make on Friday. He wished to be informed, whether, as there was every appearance of engagements having been entered into with foreign powers, it was likely that any communication would be made to the house on the subject of such engagements at an early day. This question he put, because he thought it important that the house should have some information upon the subject, but if the right hon. gentlemen opposite should consider it incompatible with their sense of public duty to give an answer, he should not press the matter further.
Mr. Secretary Canning
replied, that undoubtedly certain engagements had been entered into with foreign powers, and that it had been the intention of his majesty's ministers not, to suffer parliament to separate without making a communication upon the subject. These engagements had, however, been contingent, and ministers had thought it better to defer that communication for a short time, in order to ascertain whether the contingency upon which the engagements depended would take place, It never had been ,the intention of his majesty's government to suffer the present session to elapse, without making a communication to parliament; and he had reason to thinks that early in the next week, he should have the authority of his majesty to make a communication on that subject to the house.
[ROMAN CATHOLIC COLLEGE AT MAYNOOTH.] Mr. foster
said that with respect to the grant-to the Roman Catholic seminary at Maynooth he had given notice that he would move for the ordinary grant of 8000
l
797
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Mr. C. Wynne
said, that as The right hon. gent. had thought it proper to decline pressing his objections to the additional grant, he should not think it necessary to move at present for the documents which Would to substantiate the claims of the Maynooth establishment, to that additional grant. He should therefore withdraw the notice he had made to that effect.
Lord Howick
was extremely glad, that up on further consideration the right hon. gent. had thought it wise to abstain from a measure that must naturally have proved of the most dangerous and mischievous tendency; nor could he think, that the right hon. gent. had so satisfactorily accounted for this change of opinion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to order, and submitted to the noble lord if would not be better to postpone all observations of that nature until the question was regularly before the house, as, if such proceeding was admitted, the gentlemen on the other side would feel themselves justified in even being irregular while answering to such irregularities.
Lord Howick
proceeded to observe upon the right hon. gent's statement; the right hon. gent. objected to the additional grant the other day, and now assented to it, be cause he had learned what on the first day he ought not to have been ignorant of, that the buildings had been already begun, and yet the right hon. gent., after assigning, that reason stated that he would for the future object to it, because it was in fact doubling the Maynooth establishment. If the right hon gent. did not at first know that the building were already begun, his ignorance of that fact, could. have had nothing to do with doubling the establishment, and if such a grant did double the establishment, the actual commencement of the building could not be any argument why the grant shout be now acceded to.
798
Mr. Foster
rose to order, and insisted that it was quite unparliamentary to enter into the merits of any measure to be proposed, of which notice had been only then given.
The Speaker
thought it better that any thing to be said upon the subject should be deferred to the time appointed for the discussion thereupon, as the subject was not then before the house.
Lord Howick
said, that he certainly felt it his duty to bow to the decision of the chair, at the same time that he should take good care to enforce the strict exercise of the rule that had been now applied to him. and upon all occasions, for the future, when a notice was given, he would take care that that notice should not be followed up by any further question or comment whatever. He was certainly fully aware how troublesome it must be to the right hon. gent. to have questions put, which it might not be convenient to answer.
[PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS BILL.] Mr. Whitbread
moved the second reading of the Parochial Schools bill. The question being put,
Mr. Davies Giddy
rose and said, that while he was willing to allow the hon. gent. who brought forward this every degree of credit for the goodness,of his intentions, as well as for his ability and assiduity; still, upon the best consideration he was able to give the bill, he must totally object to its principle, as conceiving it to be more pregnant with mischief than advantage to those for Whose advantage it was intended, and for the country in general. For, however specious in theory the project might be, of giving education to the labouring classes of the poor, it would, in effect, be found to be prejudicial to their morals and happiness; it would teach them to despise their lot in life, instead of making them good servants in agriculture, and other laborious employments to which their rank in society had destined them; instead of teaching then subordination, it would render them factious and refractory, as was evident the in the manufacturing counties it would enable them to read seditious pamphlets, vicious books, and publications against Christianity; it would render them insolent to their superiors and, in a few years, the result would be, that the legislature would find it necessary to direct the strong arm of power towards them, and to furnish the executive magistrates with much more vigorous laws than
799
Mr. Morris
concurred in opinion with the hon. gent., though he was not prepared to go the full length of all his objections. He agreed, that the establishment of a system so universal, must entail upon the country an incalculable expence, at least 2s. in the pound upon the poor's rates; and he thought, that as a national system of education, the expence should rather be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, than by a local assessment upon Parishes. In Scotland, he said, the public charge upon the country was but 6000
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Mr. Ellison
gave great credit to the hon. gent. who brought in this bill, as well for his good intention in bringing it forward, as for his care in circulating it for the consideration of the magistrates throughout the kingdom. It had been fully considered; but every magistrate with whom he had conversed, was decidedly averse to it and instructed their representatives to oppose it. He was convinced the operation of the poor-laws and the public charitable schools, already in existence, were fully adequate to ameliorate the situation of the poor. But if there were schools to be built, provided under this bill, and schoolmasters and mistresses employed in 14,000 parishes, the expence must be enormous.
Mr. S. Bourne
wished the bill should stand over to the next session. And he
800
Sir Samuel Romilly
lamented the very different reception this bill net with now, Compared with what it had experienced in the last parliament. He thought the bill ought to be allowed to go into a committee, where it might receive full consideration, and such amendments as might give it a fair chance of going forth to the country in a form less liable to objections. An hon. gent. complained that the poor-laws were abused for the maintenance of profligates; but it was the very object of this bill to render the poor less profligate, and less in need of eleemosynary support. He agreed with the last speaker as to the importance of attending to the condition of parish apprentices. It was the practice to send them to as great a distance as possible, where they had no friends who could attend to their situation. In some parishes in London they were accustomed to send them to the distance of some hundreds of miles, and to contract with the proprietors of the cotton mills of Lancashire, &c. for so many of them, who were sent off in carts like so many negro slaves.
Mr. Rose
would be sorry to oppose the Bill going into a committee , provided it was. understood it should not pass this session. He had no doubt that the poor ought to be taught to read; as to writing, he had some doubt, because those who had learnt to write well, were not willing to abide at the plough, but looked to a situation in some counting house. With respect to the poor-rates, it they did not now exist, he would propose them, because he thought that the relief of the poor ought inn to. be left with the generous to the exemption of the miser.
801
Mr. Lushington
supported the principle of the bill, and argued for going into a committee. In every country where the poor were well instructed, they formed. the better subjects in every point of view. This measure would rather diminish than increase the poor-rates.
Mr. R. Dundas
felt the strongest predilection for parochial schools, and certainly agreed in the principle of extending information as much as possible among the lower ranks. The object however, which he rose, was to state in answer to the hon. and learned gent. over the way (Mr. Morris), that the expence was greater Scotland, than what he supposed it to be. The rates for the schools there, were levied on the landlords, who resorted to their tenants for one half; they besides settled a rate of fees from such of the landlords as could pay them.
Mr. Simeon
was decidedly against the bill, as going to inflict a compulsory education on the country at a most incalculable expence. At all events he thought that a bill of so much importance, to every part of the country, ought not to be discussed in so thin a house, and in the absence of the magistrates ant country gentlemen, who were the persons competent to throw the most light on the subject.
Lord Milton
expressed his surprise that any objection should be thrown in the way a the bill in this stage of it. He replied to the argument, that those who had got some,education would look higher, because they were above the generality. This would not be the case if the generality of the lower orders were well educated. There must be a lower order of people who must perform the manual labour of country; and the better informed they were, the better they would be in every respect.
Mr Wharton
in answer to the last speaker, begged leave to ask, whether the noble lord would have the ministers and churchwardens hold a critical examination in order to ascertain who were fit to be exalted to the counting-house, and who were only fit for the plough?
Mr. Whitbread
replied, that the hon. gent., with his examinations, had chosen to attach a meaning to his noble friend's words that had never entered his head. His noble friend had intimated that there must be a lower order, and the better informed they were, the better they would be. There would be no need of the hon. gent.'s
802
803
The Marquis of Titchfield
thought much
804
Mr. Whitbread
could not say how far the parishes might be provide with, or be destitute of buildings that might answer for schools. In many parishes it would not be necessary to expend a shilling on that account. School-masters could be provided at a very cheap rate.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
wished the bill to go into a committee, with a view to the utmost, fairness of consideration. It was the wish, unquestionably, of every one in the house to render the lower classes of the community better and happier. He feared however, that the kind of education here proposed, though it might give learning, would not contribute much to diffuse industry, religion, or morality. He feared a general legislative establishment would injure and destroy the voluntary establishments for public education now existing. He recommended a commission of enquiry to ascertain the state of charitable foundations for public education already established. A commission of that kind was is now prosecuting a similar investigation in Ireland without any salary to the commissioners, and with but very few clerks. When such a commission should have ascertained what had been already done, it would I be time enough to enquire what further might be done. He defended the principle of the poor-laws. However the system might be abused, as every large system must be liable to abuse, it was a proud characteristic of the nation, that charity was incorporated into the legislature. The poor of this country had consequently an interest in the maintenance of its constitution and independence, which the poor of no other country had. He said the education proposed would disqualify the persons possessing it from the most necessary, and useful description
Mr. Shaw Lefevre
vindicated the criminal code by the many instances of the royal mercy that appeared on different occasions.
805
Mr. Whitbread
said, that the instances of the royal mercy were the best proof of what he had said.
Sir. John Newport
contended, that the code was sanguinary, and that experience had shewn that capital punishment could not annihilate the crime of forgery. He contended, that the commutation of death, the effect of which was momentary, to some other punishment, under a-prolonged life of labour and degradation, would be much more effectual than the gallows.—The gallery was then cleared; but it was agreed that the bill should be read a second time without a division. When strangers were admitted,
Sir T. Turton
spoke in favour of going into the committee, but he thought compulsory education unadviseable, when voluntary education was every-where establishing itself so extensively.
Mr. Simeon
saw no good that could arise from going into a committee, and therefore opposed the speaker's leaving the chair, on the same grounds that he had objected to the second reading.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
informed the house, that he had been instructed by the magistrates of a very large and populous city to oppose the bill; in fact, he had reason to suppose that the majority of the magistrates and other principal inhabitants throughout the north of England were averse to the measure. The opposition which the hon. member made to the bill, he rested principally on the ground of the difficulty which existed as to our obtaining a sufficient number of schoolmasters, and on the impracticability of compulsory education.
Lord Henry Petty
expressed his difference in opinion from those gentlemen who apprehended that danger might result from carrying the education of the lower orders too far, as they expressed it. The measure which was then before the house went no farther than barely to furnish youth who were destitute of all other means, with a certain source of obtaining a very plain and limited education. The magistrates in the north objected to this measure, he understood, on an apprehension that they would be compelled to erect schools, and go to other expence, which would be in many parts unnecessary, as they already possessed within themselves sufficient means of education for the children of the poor in that part of the country. It was to be observed, however, that there was a clause in the bill expressly for the purpose of pre
806
For going into a committee
47
Against it
13
Majority
34
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, July 14.
[AMERICAN INDEMNITY BILL.]
Their lordships went into a committee on this bill, in which lord Holland read an amendment, which he proposed to substitute for the preamble. It was his lordship's object to place the indemnity in what he regarded as its true light, and to shew that such a proceeding was a matter of more serious importance than was generally apprehended. The amendment referred to the navigation act, the tonnage, and poundage, and recited that part of the bill of rights which relates to breaches of the law by the crown, and raising money without the sanction of parliament; and quoted the act of commerce with America, and the order of council in May last, in order to shew the ground on which the indemnity was claimed. The amendment was negatived in the committee, but lord Holland moved it again on the report, with the view that it might be entered on the journals of the house. It was then negatived also, and the bill was reported without any amendment.
[AMERICAN TRADE BILL.]
On the motion that this bill be read a second time,
Lord Holland
rose. He expected that some noble lord in administration would have stated the grounds on which the bill ought to proceed. However, as that had not been done, he should briefly state the reasons which induced him to approve of the measure. These were chiefly the obvious interests of the united states of America and this country to cultivate a good understanding and friendship; they had more interests in common than any two countries in the world. In every friendly intercourse between two countries, there was, in his
807
Earl Bathurst
had not thought it necessary to address their lordships in support of this bill, as it was precisely the same as the act which had passed last year and the year before. He contended, that administration acted with no inconsistency in taking up measures as they had been left by the preceding government, though their view of the subject might have been different before they came in
Lord Harrowby
argued on the same side,
808
The Earl of Lauderdule
contended, that nothing could be more widely different than the conduct of his friends, when in opposition, from that of the noble lords opposite to him, when they opposed the late administration. With smooth and gentle tongues they professed a readiness to support that government, but with these professions on their lips, they resorted to every illiberal, underhand, unmanly means, to subvert the power of those whom they were pretending to support. The very opposite was the character of the opposition to which he was ambitious to belong; an open, fair, liberal, and principled opposition; and he trusted he never should expose himself to the disgrace of belonging to such as the last, who were now in power; but whose possession of power ought to be contended against by every man who understood and cherished the spirit of the constitution.
Lord Mulgrave
recollected that the noble lord had attached himself to a variety of persons both in and out of place; but had distinguished himself most by a disciplined opposition to his majesty's government. For his own part, he had but one political attachment, and to that he gloried to adhere. If it was a disgrace to have belonged to any opposition, It was not for him exactly to say to what opposition the term of disgrace belonged; that must depend upon the sense and opinion of the country at large, and not of any individual: but late events had pretty clearly shewn what was the true feeling and opinion of the country.
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, he did not mean any thing personal to the noble earl: for he could not indeed charge his memory with any thing the noble earl had ever said or done to distinguish his political conduct.
The Lord Chancellor
observed, that there never was an administration which had less occasion to complain of a factious and harassing opposition than the last. There was, in fact, nothing like a systematic plan to oppose their measures, among any of those with whom he had the honour to act. "All the Talents," as they were called, were absolutely without any opponents in that house, or any where else he believed, until they began to oppose themselves.—The bill was then read a second time.
809
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, July 14.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of lord Barnard, a new writ was ordered for the election of a member for the borough of Bandon, in the room of lord Boyle, now earl of Shannon. Also for the election of a member for the borough of Tralee, in the room of sir A. Wellesley, who had made his election for the borough of Newtown, for which also he had been returned.—Mr. Long moved for leave to bring in a bill to enable the trustees of the British Museum to sell, exchange, or otherwise dispose of, such parts of their collection as were not adapted to the purposes of that institution, and to lay out the produce in the purchase of other articles better adapted to their purposes. The articles which it was proposed to dispose of, were anatomical preparations, and other things of that nature. The disposal of these articles, and the purchases to be made with the produce, were to be under the controul of a committee of seven, at the head of which were the lord chancellor, the speaker of the house of commons, and the archbishop of Canterbury. The establishment was now placed on such a footing, that it was calculated in every respect to answer the purposes intended by parliament. Leave was given to bring in the bill.—On the motion of Mr. Foster, the house went into a committee, to consider of the compensation to be made for the fees of offices abolished in the department of the customs in Ireland. Mr. Foster stated, that the commission of enquiry into the fees of offices in Ireland had particularly recommended the extension of the retrenchment and regulation of the customs fees adopted in this country to Ireland. It became necessary, in consequence of the adoption of that measure, to make compensation to the officers whose fees were suppressed. The amount of the compensation to be paid was about 100,000
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810
[ARMY CLOTHING AND AGENCY.] Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
with a view to shew the practicability of very considerable savings in the Army Clothing and Agency departments, rose to move for a number of papers which he had yesterday given notice of his intention to call for, and to the production of which he did not understand there was any objection. The present mode of clothing the army, by converting the colonels of regiments into a species of wholesale tailors, was particularly reprehensible. In the agency department also, much unnecessary expence was incurred. On the whole, he was convinced a saving of no less than 2 per cent. might be made on the 2,000,000
l
811
The Secretary at War
had no objection to the production of the papers, farther than that the subjects they alluded to were now under the consideration of the commissioners of military enquiry, who would shortly report upon it. The subjects were certainly most important, and the attention of the war-office and of his majesty's government were particularly directed to them, with a view to make every practicable saving for the public. Under the circumstances of the commission of military enquiry having directed its investigation to the matter, and of its being necessary to go to a considerable expence for clerks to make out the accounts, he put it to the hon. gent. whether it would be desirable to press the motion.
Mr. Rose
was confident that by adopting the plan of clothing now in use with respect to the invalids, a saving of from 100,000
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812
Mr. Windham
thought it best to leave these matters to the commissioners of military enquiry in the first instance. Both subjects, the clothing and the agency, had engaged much of the consideration of the late government, with a view to the practicability of some savings upon them. His inclination was very much in favour of the plan mentioned by the right hon. gent. opposite, and that not so much with a view to economy, though that important object also would be promoted, as in order to take the colonels of regiments out of the incongruous situation in which they were placed while suffered to act as clothiers to their respective corps. With respect to agency, that matter had been under consideration so long since, as when he had been in the war office, and the result of the deliberation was, that no saving could be made by the adoption of a general plan, sufficient to compensate the loss of the convenience now afforded by the nomination of his own agent by every commander of a regiment.
Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
saw the strongest reason for the production of the papers in the avowal of so many official persons, that the subject to which he called the attention of the house, admitted, at least, in a considerable degree, of reform; and that such reform, though many years in contemplation, was still not carried into effect. Probably, if he should omit to bring the matter before the house now, it would remain still to be said, after the lapse of some more years, that the reform was under consideration.——After some further observations from the secretary at war, who said the saving even on the clothing, would not be so considerable as some expected; Mr. Windham who said, it was not so much to saving he looked, as to correcting the incongruity of making the colonels clothiers; and Mr. Huskisson, who said that only a small proportion of the
813
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[SINKING FUND.] Lord H. Petty
moved the order of the day for going into a committee on the bill for the appropriation of the Sinking Fund. He would reserve his observations till he should have heard the sentiments of the right hon. gent. opposite.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
contended, that it was improper and unnecessary to adopt this measure, or to come to any resolution upon it in the present session. He allowed that great benefit had been derived from the pause in taxation introduced with this measure; but, in considering the further adoption of that repose in any future session, it would be proper to consider how far it was checked by being burthened with an increased Sinking Fund of five per cent. The measure had been already adopted so far as was requisite for the ways and means of this year. What it would be fit to do at a future period, would be best determined by future circumstances. This measure proposed to compel the public creditor to receive an advanced sinking fund on a small part of the debt now, as a consideration for being deprived of the growing accumulation of the whole sinking fund at a future period. By the act of 1792, it was provided, that unless parliament should establish other funds to pay the public debt, at farthest in 45 years, one per cent. should be set aside for that purpose at the Exchequer, so that it must be paid, at all events, in 45 years. The present measure, therefore, in making an arrangement to pay off the debt in 45 years. gave the public creditor the very worst repayment that by law he was entitled to. The precedent of lord Sidmouth's interference with the Sinking Fund, by no means went to bear out this measure. When lord Sidmouth, in funding 97,000,000
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814
Lord Henry Petty
replied to the chancellor of the exchequer, and asked, how he could call upon the house to defer its opinion on a measure which was contingent on another which had been passed by the legislature, and received the pointed approbation of the king? All that was implied in the resolutions which he intended to propose was, that the house should express its determination that, if the boon should continue for the time proposed, then a benefit would be expected in return. He was not prepared to say that it would be of very material import if these resolutions should be postponed until next sessions; but then the same arguments that were now urged, might be advanced in favour of longer delay, and so on, until the house and the country felt the inconvenience of no legislative regulation having been agreed to sooner. The act of 1802 had been spoken of, but he would ask, did not the legislature then act for the advantage of the public creditor, without ridiculously waiting until the individuals that composed that body should petition the house to interfere in their behalf? The principle upon which the sinking fund was raised, was, it was true, then broken in upon; but it was for the advantage of the public. An advantage to a greater extent would be reaped from the present system; it was by a regard to the security of the public creditor, and a seasonable attention to his interest; it was by public security, and the facility of disposing of property in our funds that an immense capital was drawn into the service of the public. It was said, that the proposer of these resolutions only accelerated the disorder in order that he might apply the remedy; but it was not right that regulations should be adopted for general supply, so as to prevent any sudden emergency hereafter. Would any man wish to get rid of a plan for the better supplying of this metropolis with provisions, merely because we did not want provisions at present? He did not say that exactly the same individuals would hold the
815
Mr. Huskisson
contended that the taking from the Sinking Fund, even at the end of ten years, would be diminishing the security which the public creditor now held; and he considered that it would be in the highest degree absurd to declare now, that in ten years we would take from the Sinking Fund, when it was absolutely impossible to foresee the state of the country in ten years, whether it would be at peace or at war, or whether it might not be necessary then to add to the Sinking Fund, instead of taking any thing away from it.
Mr. Dent
expressed his opinion, that so long as we were able to raise taxes sufficient to pay the interest of our loans, there was no necessity for the plan of the noble lord.
Mr. H. Addington
defended the conduct of his noble relation (lord Sidmouth). There were some gentlemen who, if they disapproved of his conduct at the time that was alluded to, disapproved of it
sub silentio
Mr. Long
declared, that he had entertainer strong objections to the measure of the no-
816
Mr. Davies Giddy
was so convinced of the radical truth of the noble lord's original propositions, that if he now pressed his motion, he should support it. At the same time, he saw not the utility of proposing the motion, when it was not likely to be acted upon.
Mr. Vansittart
defended the plan of his noble friend, and thought that the time for requiring of the public creditors any sacrifice was, when they had an advantage from the augmentation that had been made this year to the sinking fund.
Mr. Rose
though he had entertained considerable doubts as to the measure adopted in 1802, had yet got rid of those doubts in consequence of the circumstances under which it had been brought forward. The plan of the noble lord was founded upon an accumulating debt, and a decreasing Sinking Fund, but the original plan of his late right hon. friend was founded upon an increasing Sinking Fund, and a decreasing Debt.—The question was then put for going into the committee, and negatived without a division.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, July 15.
[MINUTES.]
The Speaker acquainted the house, that he had received a letter from lord viscount Mahon, who had been returned for Wendover and Kingston; in which his lordship declared, that he had made his election to serve for Wendover. A new writ was ordered for Kingston, thus vacated.—Mr. C. Wynne brought up the report of the committee appointed to examine into the state of Criminal and Pauper Lunatics in Great Britain. The report was ordered to be printed, after a few words from Mr. Wynne, who said that it had been wished to include Ireland and Scotland in the measure advised by the committee, but that it had been deemed adviseable to leave any proposition on this subject, to be brought forward by those who were better acquainted with the circumstances of those two countries.—Mr. Huskisson brought in a bill for investing his majesty with the rights of the Sierra Leone company, which was read a first time.— Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee on the king's message, rela-
817
nem. con.,
[ROMAN CATHOLIC COLLEGE AT MAYNOOTH.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee of supply,
Mr. Foster
in moving that the sum of 13,000
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Mr. Elliot
defended the conduct of the late administration, in having recommended to parliament the adoption of this grant of 13,000
l
818
Mr. Hawkins Browne
thought his right hon. friend (Mr. Foster) had acted, on this occasion, with great liberality and moderation. He said, if he had been a member of the Irish parliament, he never would have given his assent to establish such an anomaly as a college maintained within the realm, at the expence of the state, to educate a clergy for the purpose of propagating a religion contrary and hostile to the state itself; a religion which every member of that house was bound to abjure, before he could take his seat; a religion of superstitious, intolerant, and persecuting principles, and which, however friendly he was to toleration and liberty of conscience, he was sorry to find so inveterately rooted amongst so great a portion of the people of Ireland, and now cherished by the sanction of law. He lamented extremely, that there were so many Roman Catholics in Ireland, and would have no objection to agree to the establishment of parish schools for their education, in common with Protestants; not like the Protestant charter-schools, to procure proselytes, but where they might be instructed in the fundamental principles of Christianity, in which all sects agree. But if the Irish Catholics wished to educate their clergy, let them do it like the Protestant dissenters, at their own cost, instead of loading the Protestants of Ireland with taxes for the purpose of supporting a college on their account.
Mr. Windham
did not expect that such a discussion would have arisen on this subject at this moment; but since it was part of a settled plan of the present government, and the hon. gent. had taken the lead, he should hold it right to follow the ship of the line, and get into deep water. The hon. gent. had expressed his astonishment at the existence of such an anomaly as a Catholic college, for the education of a Catholic priesthood, maintained by government in the midst of Ireland, a Protestant state. The best answer to this was, that the case of Ireland itself was an anomaly, where three-fourths of the people continued Catholics, notwithstanding all the legal cruelties, proscriptions, and privations for so many hundred years, in order to grind them into Protestants. Was it because they refused to become proselytes to Protestantism, contrary to the conviction of their consciences, that they were to have no religion at all? If they would continue Catholics, was it not better for the
819
Mr. Parnell
said, he held in his hand the Prayer Book used by the Roman Catholics in Ireland, out of which, with the permission of the house, he would read a few extracts, for the purpose of shewing that the doctrines attributed to that body of men were either misunderstood or grossly misrepresented. He accordingly read the following sections of that Book:—"2. It is no matter of faith that the church cannot err either in matters of fact, or in matter of speculation or civil policy depending on mere human reason, these not being divine revelations deposited in the Catholic church." "3. If a General Council, much less a Papal Consistory, should presume to depose a king and to absolve his subjects from their allegiance, no Catholic could be bound to submit to such decree." Hence it follows, "4. That subjects of the king of England lawfully may, without the least breach of any Catholic principle, renounce upon oath the teaching or practising the doctrine of deposing kings excommunicated for heresy by any authority whatsoever, as repugnant to the fundamental laws of the nation, as injurious to sovereign power, and as destructive to peace and good government." "6. It is
820
Mr. William Smith
thought that, in an anomalous government, like that of Ireland, a Protestant government, taking from the large body of the Catholics all the tithes of the country, was at least bound to provide instruction for those Catholics. He thought it most expedient and politic, were it to be argued on that ground alone, that the instruction of the Catholics should be in the hands of the government. Adverting to the doctrines contained in the prayer-book, extracts from which had just been read by an hon. gent., he contended that if sincere in those doctrines, Catholics were entitled to hold any offices of trust. If they
821
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
protested against the entertaining of any such belief as that he wished to withhold instruction from the Roman Catholics of Ireland. All he wished to do was, to protect the Protestants against the increased and increasing influence of the priesthood. He confessed he had opposed the extension of this grant during the last parliament. But he now thought it better, as he believed he was the only person in his majesty's government who had seriously opposed it, to accede to the proposition of his hon. friend, lest his opposition should appear the effect of spleen, in endeavouring to make this the only exception from the acceding to the grants of the last parliament. He believed, however, the present was the first instance in which the house, on the application of the party alone, without any investigation in a committee, had granted such an increase as was proposed during the last parliament. Had the house gone into a committee, was it possible it could have come to the resolution of extending the Romish priests in Ireland to double their present number? Was this the way to extend the Protestant religion in that country? Only 100 Protestant clergy were educated there annually, yet it was proposed to raise the number of Catholic priests to four times that number. The hon. member for Norwich (W. Smith) had talked as if these priests had been under the care of government. This was a
822
Lord H. Petty
said, if a Roman Catholic establishment in Ireland was allowed, they must have an education; and the question was, whether that education should be in Ireland, or out of it; or whether they should have any education at all? If not educated in Ireland, the priests would go abroad for education, where they would meet with tenets more dangerous to our constitution. The house would recollect, a priesthood must exist in Ireland, and that it would be best under the encouragement and observation of government than under any other. The right hon. gent. had talked as if they were shut up from the knowledge of government; but surely he knew there were five visitors appointed by act of parliament, one of whom was the lord chancellor of Ireland, who were to make a visitation once in three years, or at any time on the requisition of the lord lieutenant; and, if they did their duty, could it be supposed the establishment was not under the controul of government?
823
Mr. J. Leslie Foster
(member for the university of Dublin) hoped, that after the allusion that had been made by the noble lord to the place he had the honour to represent, he would be excused saying a few words on the subject now before the committee. Of the establishment of Maynooth College, as a substitution for St. Omer's, he entirely approved. He did not himself remember the circumstances under which it was originally founded; but believed, from what he had heard, that 8000
l
l
324
Mr. Dillon
read from a document he held in his hand, a statement of the number of sinecure livings in Ireland, without glebe houses or residences, by which, he contended, it appeared that the Roman Catholics paid one-tenth of their property to a nominal clergy for doing nothing. He said, it was no wonder that the Protestant church was disrelished by the Irish peasant, when the only way through which he knew it was, the exactions of the tithe-proctor. He concluded with an earnest exhortation to the house, to adopt some modification of tithes in Ireland, as the best possible way of restoring the people of that country to content.
Sir John Newport
defended the way in which the grant had been introduced, and asked, why that mode had not been altered by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster), since it had been condemned by his colleague the chancellor of the exchequer for England? He was glad he had the authority of the member for Dublin college bearing him out in the assertion made by him in that
825
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
in answer to what had fallen from an hon. member (Mr. Dillon), assured that hon. gent. that the attention of government should be early and anxiously directed to the abuse complained of, with respect to the want of glebe houses, and sinecure livings. He did think with that hon. gent. that it was extremely hard, that any man should pass away an indolent life upon an opulent living, while a poor curate was discharging the duties of that office for the year round, upon a pittance scarcely sufficient to maintain him. He had before failed in two or three instances, in carrying through that house a measure for the regulation of rectories and cures; he however now gave notice that it was the intention of his majesty's present government to submit to the consideration of the house, a measure for reducing the opulent livings, and out of their abundance making an allowance for the poorer curates. It ought to have been done before; he wished that the late government had paid more attention to the church in Ireland.
Lord Howick
did not mean to protract the debate, nor should he now have risen to offer any thing by way of argument on a subject that had been so ably argued on both sides of the house, had it not been that he could not sit still after the imputation thrown upon the late government by the right hon. gent. He challenged the right hon. gent. to state an instance in which the late government had neglected the church in that country. He desired the right hon. gent. to ask the primate of
826
Mr. Foster
said, that the noble lord had charged him with levity. He asked that noble lord if there was a document to produce to the house which could substantiate the claim now made upon it, and if there was not, he would say that the noble lord, in charging him with levity, had been guilty not only of levity but ignorance. He contended that no such document could be found.
Lord Howick
did not think the right hon. gent. could satisfy the house of his diligence in office by evading the charge of negligence, in resorting to such pitiful excuses.
Mr. Foster
would not call such language unparliamentary, but he would pronounce it pitiful.
Lord Howick
left it to the house to determine: the right hon. gent. had said, he could not find any document. He then said, he did not say he had made any enquiry; and he now said, that he did not say, he had not made an enquiry: if such was to be the candour and intelligence of the Irish chancellor of the exchequer, he could not congratulate that country on the appointment.
Colonel Barry
said a few words against the policy of continuing the grant in future. He had been present at all the former debates on the subject and had not heard of these documents. He disapproved of the wanton and unprovoked asperity with which the noble lord had treated his right hon. friend.
Mr. Sheridan
congratulated the late administration on the honourable testimony they had received from the gentleman who had just sat down: that gentleman had been present at all the former discussions upon
827
Colonel Barry
said, that certainly the diligent and punctual attendance of his right hon. friend to his parliamentary duties, in the last sessions, [a laugh,] enabled him to remember accurately all that then passed in that house. Unfortunately, however, he (Col. B.) had spoken on that subject, though he did not expect, nor indeed, did it appear, that it had made any great impression on his right non, friend.
Mr. Sheridan
said in answer, that if he had not been as vigilant and anxious in his attention to his parliamentary duties during the last sessions as he usually was, it was owing to nothing but his unbounded confidence in the late administration. [A laugh.]
Dr. Duigenan
denied that the late administration had manifested any solicitude to promote the interests of the Protestant religion in Ireland. On the contrary, he had to state that a bill which he introduced, at the instance of several of the archbishops and bishops of Ireland, to enforce the residence of the clergy, and which bill was a transcript of that brought forward in this country by sir W. Scott, was discountenanced by that administration, and in consequence rejected. What the administration to which he referred had done for the benefit of the established church in Ireland, he had yet to learn.
Lord Howick
had no idea that the disinclination of the late government to countenance a measure brought forward by the learned doctor was likely to depreciate the character of that government, either in England or Ireland. Therefore he did not think it necessary to make any attempt at vindicating himself or his colleagues against the learned doctor's accusation.
Lord Milton
observed, that gentlemen, in asserting the sufficiency of a certain number of clergymen to administer the duties of the Catholic religion in Ireland, because such a number was thought necessary in 1795, seemed altogether to exclude the consideration of those events which had since occurred on the continent, which events limited the supplies from that quarter, and
828
Mr. Grattan
thought it remarkable, that while the gentlemen on the other side agreed to the resolution, they pursued a course of argument directly against it. Their argument, indeed, would militate not only against the proposed increase of the institution, but against its original establishment. The principle of the original establishment was to provide the means of educating and domesticating the Catholic clergy of Ireland, and thus to protect them from the opportunity of imbibing foreign principles. With that view, the college of Maynooth was instituted, and the state of the continent at the time rendered such an institution peculiarly necessary. Did any alteration take place in the state of the continent to abate the amount or character of that University? It was absurd to say, that the same number of Roman Catholic clergymen would suffice for Ireland now, that was thought requisite in 1795; for that would be to suppose the population at a stand, and nothing could be imagined more absurd than to suppose that 200 clergymen would be sufficient. There were no less than 2400 parishes and 1100 benefices in Ireland; and if so many clergymen were appointed to instruct one million of Protestants, or rather half that number, for the other half at least of those denominated Protestants belonged to the different classes of dissenters, how could 200 clergymen be considered competent to perform the ecclesiastical duties of Catholicity to three millions of people? The idea was preposterous. And as to the expence, the Catholics were generally unable to educate their clergy, and they must be educated at the public expence, or they must be ignorant and a disgrace to Christianity. The expence was trifling, and the object was material. Would any friend to toleration in common policy starve religion to save the treasury 5000
l
829
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, July 16.
[MINUTES.]
A new writ was ordered for the borough of Orford, in the room of lord Robert Seymour, who having been also elected for the county of Caermarthen, had made his election to serve for that county.—The speaker informed the house, that he had received a letter from Samuel Smith, esq., who, having been elected for Midhurst and Leicester, had made his election to serve for Leicester. A new writ was then ordered for Midhurst.—Mr. Hobhouse reported from the committee, to whom the resolution of the house of the 11th day of Feb. 1789, respecting the Recognizances to be entered into by any person having presented a petition to this house, complaining of an undue election, was referred; that the committee had come to the following resolution; "That, so far as the said resolution respects the notice required to be given by the petitioner to the sitting member or members, or their known agent or agents, of the time and place of the intended examination of the sufficiency of the surety or sureties to be named in any recognizance, and of the names, additions, and places of abode of such sureties, if the petitioner shall not have been able to find and serve the sitting member or his known agent or agents, and if he shall thereupon have obtained an order from the house enlarging the time for entering into his recognizance, it shall be sufficient for the petitioner to give the said notice in writing, seven days at least previous to such examination, to the clerk of the house of commons, who shall enter the same in a book to be kept for that purpose, which shall be open to the inspection of all persons concerned." Ordered, that the said resolution be printed.—Mr. C. Dundas moved, that the order of the house of the 24th of Nov. 1699, "That the chairman of the Committee for any Private bill do not sit thereupon, without a week's public notice thereof set up
830
[BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—COMPLAINT RESPECTING THE POOLE WRIT.] Mr. Jeffery
pursuant to notice, rose to call the attention of the house to a circumstance, which was not only a violation of law, but a high breach of the privileges of that house. On the 29th of April, the writs were issued, as he understood, for the general election, and amogst the other writs, one for the election of Burgesses to serve in parliament for the town and county of the town of Poole. He had been informed by the messenger of the great seal, that this writ had been delivered immediately by him to Mr. Jonathan Brundrett, chief clerk to Mr. Lowten, in the Temple, to be sent to the sheriff of Poole. When he called upon Mr. Lowten, to enquire whether the writ had been sent, he was informed, that it had been sent three hours before; and on asking to whom the writ had been sent, he received a rude answer declining to state to whom, and accompanied with an observation, that it had been sent down in opposition to himself. It was not till the 20th of May that the sheriff gaveno tice, that the election would be held on the 25th of May, and in consequence, sir Richard Bickerton, one of the lords of the admiralty, and himself, who had gone down to Poole when the writs were issued, expecting that the election would come on immediately, with several of the electors of that city, were detained there three weeks to their great inconvenience. He should not detain the house by dwelling upon the motives of the conduct of which he complained, but should only state, that as parties ran high in the town, and the numbers were nearly balanced, the delay had been resorted to, in order to give an opportunity to one person, who would not have been of age to vote till the 22d of May, time to attain the proper age to vote. The consequence was a special return with respect to the two other
831
Mr. Creevey
wished to know what breach of privilege the hon. member complained of.
The Speaker
said, it was his duty to answer that question. Undoubtedly, any person who detained a writ issued for the election of a member of that house, was guilty of a high crime and misdemeanour, the highest which that house knew, because such conduct had the effect of keeping the representatives of the people,who ought to be in the house, for the time, out of it.
Mr. Stainforth
was then brought to the bar, and stated, that he had received the writ for Poole a little after twelve o'clock, on the 30th of April, and delivered it within less than two hours after to Mr. Brundrett, chief clerk of Mr. Lowten, for the purpose of being forwarded with all possible expedition to the sheriff of Poole. Mr. Stainforth then withdrew, and Mr. T. Lowten and Mr. Jonathan Brundrett were ordered to attend the house to-morrow.
[VOLUNTEERS.] Sir Thomas Turton
in rising to make his motion, in pursuance of his notice, for a return of the effective strength of the Volunteers, felt it impossible not to participate in the satisfaction of the house and of the public, that a noble lord, whom he did not then see in his place, was to-morrow to bring forward a proposition in which this part of the national force would be adequately provided for. There was a return similar to that he wished to call for before the house, presented in December last, but as he knew that it was inaccurate with respect to three or four regiments, he was sorry that it could not be seen from it how far it was to be depended on. It was peculiarly desirable, in the present situation of the country, to know what was the effective strength of its Volunteer force; as it was not to be concealed that that force had greatly decreased in consequence of the discouragements which it had met with. He was convinced, however, that the Volunteers were sound at heart, and that, with a little encouragement, they would again fall into their ranks; and, in the present state of the country, they should look to the Volunteers principally for the defence of the country. He should conclude by moving,
832
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had no objection to the motion, as he thought that every information on this subject should be afforded to the house. But he apprehended that the hon. baronet would be disappointed, if he expected more accurate information in this return than in that which had been laid on the table in December last. The inspecting field-officers had then been done away, and the returns were made by the commanding officers of the corps, without any check on the part of government. These inspecting field-officers had been only just appointed; and, though they might have made returns of a few corps, the great mass of the returns, which by the law were to be made every three months, would still rest on the same authority as the returns to which the hon. bart. had alluded.
Sir T. Turton
replied, and contended that such discouraging language as "armed democracy," "depositaries of panic," &c. which had been applied to them in parliament, had principally tended to diminish the numbers of the Volunteers. It was impossible for them, having the feelings of men, to be insensible to terms of reproach, and it required all the influence of their officers to keep them from shewing their sense of them by withdrawing from their corps. He had raised the corps he now commanded, in 1794, and had the satisfaction to state, that whatever provocation might have been given to the Volunteers, his corps had not been in-
833
[EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S BONDS BILL.] Mr. Grant
moved the order of the day, for the second reading of the East-India Company's Bonds bill, On the question being put,
Mr. Creevey
rose, not to negative the second reading of this bill, but to move that the second reading of it be put off, till the East-India accounts now printing, should be in the hands of members. The house was not in possession of any documents to prove the expediency of agreeing to such a measure. This was the first instance in which that house had been called upon to pass such a measure, without previous enquiry into the grounds upon which it was founded, by having the petition referred to a committee of the house to examine into its allegations. There were at present two budgets in arrear, and the last accounts of the India company, to which the house could resort for information, shewed the affairs of the company to be in a ruinous state. By these accounts it appeared, that there was an excess of above two millions in the company's foreign expenditure over their revenue, and a loss of 2,200,000
l
Mr. Grant
replied, that though the hon. member might be actuated by a desire to promote the public interest, he took the wrong course in his speech, for his arguments were founded in ignorance, not in his knowledge of the subject. The sole and simple reason for bringing forward the bill before the India accounts could be brought under the consideration of the house was, that if that course had not been taken, the bill could not be passed this session. The hon. member was aware how difficult it was to prepare the India accounts, so as that they could be presented in a form to be intelligible to the members
834
l
Lord Folkestone
defended the statement of his hon. friend, as to the situation of the East-India company's affairs, and contended for the propriety of deferring the discussion, till the papers now printing should be in the hands of the members. He protested against the implied guarantees that would be given to the security of the bonds, without sufficient investigation of the state of the company's affairs. To issue the bonds without such a guarantee, would be to delude the public.
835
Lord Howick
insisted upon the propriety of waiting till the documents now printing should be before the house. The importance and extent of the measure to be proposed to-morrow, for the defence of the country, would involve details, which would, in all probability, keep parliament sitting for so long a time, as to allow full opportunity to pass this measure after ample discussion. The state of the East-India company was such, that if the house could not in this session, go into a particular investigation of the company's affairs, it ought at least to pledge itself by a resolution to do so in the next. He expatiated on the declining state of the company's investments and sales; on the increased dangers menacing our Indian possessions from the increased power of Bonaparte, whose hostile designs against our Indian empire were well known. He insisted also on the instability of the peace with the native powers in India. He was of opinion, that those who should advance money on the credit of these bonds would have a claim upon the public, if the company should prove unable to discharge them. [Certainly not, said Mr. Grant,] That was, in his opinion, at least doubtful. If the company could raise the money on its own credit, why did it come to parliament? If the sanction of parliament was necessary, it was in order to give the bonds a credit, which implied a sanction, amounting virtually to a guarantee.
Mr. R. Dundas
defended the raising of money upon bonds, in preference to the augmentation of the company's capital, which the company was already by law entitled to make. With respect to the urgency of passing the bill soon, he believed it was strictly a private bill, and must of course be reported this day se'nnight, or fall to the ground. This, however, the house might dispense with. With respect to the state of the company's affairs, though expensive wars had brought on heavy charges, the Indian empire was as little ruined by those heavy charges, as this country was by the heavy wars it had to sustain in Europe. Neither did the failure of commercial speculations in one or two years imply absolute ruin. The West-India merchants also were under difficulties: but nobody thought of saying they were in danger of being ruined. He denied that the passing of this bill amounted to a guarantee on the part of parliament. It might as well be argued, that parliament would
836
Dr. Laurence
as a member of parliament, ignorant on this subject, and entitled to information, contended, that no farther proceedings should be had on this measure, without full inspection of such documents as could be had. There would be abundant time for this. It was generally understood that the session could not be terminated in less than five weeks.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought it strange, that, as this measure had been agreed to by the late board of controul, it should now be opposed by the secretary to that board (Mr. Creevey). He denied that parliament, in passing the bill, guaranteed the bonds. The present high price of the company's stock, 180 per cent., was a sufficient proof of the company's credit, and the stability of its funds, without the aid of parliament. The present discussion was, at least, a sufficient notice that parliament gave no sanction. The parliament was never supposed to sanction the West-India dock company, or any other private speculating company, when an act was passed, enabling such company to increase its capital. It was allowed on all hands, that the company wanted relief, and this was the best mode of granting that relief.
Sir A. Wellesley
supported the measure, and maintained the propriety of proceeding upon it without delay. The company's investments had been fully attended to. The difficulties arose from the state of the continental market, goods to the amount of 7,000,000
l
l
Lord Morpeth
recommended a minute investigation of the company's affairs, with a view to a complete settlement. Temporary arrangements were indeterminate and unsatisfactory.
Mr. Lamb
thought parliament bound to investigate the solvency of the parties to whom it granted power to raise money, and of course responsible in the event of these parties proving insolvent.—The question being put, a division took place,
For reading the bill a 2d time now,
35
Against it
10
837
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, July 17.
[IRISH GLEBE HOUSES BILL.]
The order of the day being read for the second reading of the Irish Glebe Houses bill,
The Earl of Hardwicke
said, he should wish the bill to be postponed for further consideration, Thursday next. He conceived the bill to be superfluous: an act having passed in the year 1803 granting the sum of 56,000
l
The Earl of Suffolk
understood the reason of not executing the act passed five years ago, to be the want of sufficient securities for the due appropriation of the money. This was, however, a very unsatisfactory reason, because the clerical livings might be taken as securities. Something ought certainly to be done in the business. At a time when the extension of the privileges of the Catholics was so much objected to, surely means should be taken for spreading more generally the Protestant worship, by increasing the facilities of attendance upon it. He had no doubt that the residence of the established clergy in their respective parishes would be productive of many converts to the Protestant faith. Upon this point he could speak from a fact within his own knowledge. What was considerered the pattern regiment of the artillery at Woolwich consisted of Irish Roman Catholics, and of these, as there was not a Roman Catholic Chapel within a convenient distance, a very considerable number of them spontaneously attended the established church. Of the dissenters, very few, if any, did so: but that might arise from there being several meeting houses in the neighbourhood to which they might resort. Among the Roman Catholic troops at the depôt in the Isle of Wight, he believed there were few who frequented the established church, because they had an opportunity of attending divine service at Cowes, according to their own system. Here he could not but advert to an expression which fell the other evening from high authority (the Lord Chancellor). Their lordships had been told, that the Catholics were within
838
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.] The Earl of Suffolk
then rose to state, that before he left town, on his necessary avocations, he should feel it his duty to address their lordships on the military defence of the country. He was apprehensive that the proposition to be brought forward in the other house would come before their lordships too late to admit of his delivering his sentiments upon it. He should therefore state what he had to say on Monday. He begged leave to remind the house that his advice had been followed in many of the points which he had repeatedly urged on their attention. There still, however, remained much to be done towards an efficient system of defence. He must at the same time intimate, that some of the observations which he might have to make, were of so delicate a nature, that he was apprehensive he should be under the unpleasant necessity of clearing the bar. He wished it to be under stood, that nothing but an imperious sense of duty could induce him to move for the exclusion of strangers. [Here there was a cry of order!] He was aware that he was not altogether in order, but he was unwilling that the public should conceive that he wished to conceal from them any proceeding but such as a due regard for their own interests and safety required to be kept secret.—On Iris lordship's motion, the house was ordered to be summoned for Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, July 17.
[COMPLAINT RESPECTING THE POOLE WRIT.]
On the motion of Mr. Jeffery, the house proceeded to the further consideration of the enquiry into the causes of the detention of the writ for holding the late election at Poole.—Mr. Jonathan Brundrett being in attendance, pursuant to an order of the house, was called in and examined. He stated that he was a solicitor, acting as clerk to Mr. Lowten: that immediately after he had taken out the writ from the crown-office, he had handed it over to a gentleman who he expected would have forwarded it with, all possible expedition.
839
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that when the situation, education, and character in life, of the witness were considered, his hesitation to answer the question put to him could not be imputed to mere ignorance. But as it did not become the house to take any rigorous step without explanation, he proposed that Mr. Brundrett be again called in, and that the Speaker should explain to him, that the house could not allow the ground he had laid down for refusing to answer the question put by its anthority.—Brundrett being again called in,
The Speaker
informed him, that the house did not admit the excuse he had offered, and repeated the question to him two or three times, by whom he had been employed to take out the writ? Mr. Brundrett persisted in declining to answer the question, and threw himself upon the indulgence of the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
saw no option for the house in the contumacy of the witness, but to commit him to the custody of the serjeant at arms.
The Speaker
suggested, that the first question to be put was, that Jonathan Brundrett, having refused to answer the question put to him by the authority of the house, was guilty of a high breach of privilege.—A resolution to this effect having been put, was agreed to,
nem. con.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that as the house had so unanimously declared its sense of the offence committed against its authority, by the refusal of the witness to answer, it remained for him only to follow up the unanimous resolution of the house by the usual motion in such cases. He therefore moved, that Jonathan Brundrett be, for his said offence, committed to his majesty's gaol of Newgate.
Mr. Barham
suggested, that it might he a sense a professional duty towards the person who had employed him, that had
840
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
contended for the right of the house to investigate all the proceedings with respect to the writ. If the witness persisted in his refusal to answer, he might, in so doing, be ambitious to raise his professional character; but that ambition was no reason why the house should restrain itself in the investigation which its constitution and character prescribed, nor in the exercise of the means it possessed of rendering that investigation effectual. The question was perfectly legal, and the excuse offered was totally insufficient.
Lord Howick
observed upon the generality of the practice of taking out writs with a view to the convenience of the parties taking them out, in giving them a discretion to fix the time of the election. Some general remedy ought to be applied. Three parliaments ago the writ for Northumberland had been offered to him, with a view that he should consult his convenience in the use of it. He declined the offer, desiring that it should be transmitted to the returning officer, and intimating that if any improper delay occurred he would complain to the house of it. He would ask the secretary of the treasury (Mr. Huskisson), if there were not other instances also of his favour in issuing the writs. When the sheriff of Westmoreland sent for the writ for the
841
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, the witness had already acquitted himself by immediately handing over the writ. An attorney was not protected from answering, where he himself was a party.
Mr. Bathurst and Mr. Yorke
on a review of all the circumstances, voted for the motion.
Mr. Huskisson
defended the treasury from the imputation of interfering with the issuing of the writs.
Lord Ossulston
alluded to a case, where he knew of an order being sent from the treasury not to deliver out the writ to any person in opposition to ministers, and this too at a time previous to its being known that the place was actually vacant.
Lord Howick
imagined the hon. secretary of the treasury would better understand the hint he had thrown about, if he enquired what had been done in the case of the writ for the university of Cambridge.
Mr. Sharpe
from his confidence in the veracity of the hon. member (Mr. Jeffery), and from the contumacy of the witness, felt himself bound to vote for the motion of committal.—Mr. Montague spoke to the same effect.
Mr. W. Smith
candidly confessed, as he believed most members conversant with contested elections might do if they would, that he had himself made an arrangement to get out a writ early for the advantage of a friend of his; but, upon application, he found that the opposite party had been still more active and successful. He hoped a general remedy would be provided by an obligation to issue the writ only to the returning officer. He deprecated the severe punishment of an individual case in the present general practice. He thought a committal ought now to take place; but the, excuses that had been offered would be irresistible grounds of liberation as soon as a motion to that elect could be made.
Dr. Laurence
hoped this discussion would
842
Mr. Dent
said a few words in vindication of the messenger of the great seal, the officer concerned in issuing the writs.
Mr. Smith
in explanation said, he did not mean to say any thing to the disadvantage of that officer; but merely to state the impropriety of the general usage in these matters as it stood at present.—The question being put, it was ordered that Mr. Brundrett be committed to Newgate.
Mr. Jeffery
then moved, that Mr. Lowten be called in, having first stated, that on hearing at the crown office, that the writ had been taken out by Mr. Lowten's clerk, he bad gone to Mr. Lowten's chambers, who refused to tell him to whom it had been sent, but said very rudely, that it had been delivered three hours before to a person in the city, who had sent it to Poole; he would not tell to whom, but added, "if it is any satisfaction to you to know, it is gone in opposition to you."
Mr. Lowten
was then called in, and in the course of a long examination, stated, that he neither directed Brundrett to take out the writ, nor knew who did. On being asked whether, having stated to Mr. Jeffery that the writ had been sent to Poole three hours before, he had himself sent, or was privy to its being sent, by any other person? Mr. Lowten begged to know, what the hon. member meant by the word privy? On being informed that it was meant to enquire whether he had any knowledge, direct, or indirect, he said he had not; that he had merely ordered Brundrett to give it to the persons in the city who had employed him to take it out. He could not answer precisely what he had said to the hon. member; he had, he believed, said, that the writ had been sent into the city three hours before. He had not said it had been sent to Poole, at least he knew nothing of the fact of is having been so sent. The hon. member was very pertinacious, and would not take the answer thus given him, but Mr. Lowten told him he would give no other. He did not say the writ was gone, in opposition to the hon. member, his connections, or his opponents. On this difference between the
843
Mr. Barham
moved, that the messenger of the great seal be also ordered to attend, in order to explain the circumstances relating to the issue of the writs.
Mr. Huskisson
seconded the motion. He was anxious to shew, that no influence was exercised by the treasury.—The messenger was accordingly ordered to attend on Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, July 18.
[MINUTES.]
New writs were ordered for the borough of Helstone, in the room of Mr. Richards,who since his election,had accepted the office of steward of his majesty's Chiltern Hundreds; and for the borough of Appleby, in the room of lord Howick, who, since his election, had accepted the office of steward of the Hundred of East Hendred.—Mr. G. Galway Mills took the oaths and his seat.—Mr. Jeffery, in consequence of the illness of one of the witnesses, postponed the proceedings of the Poole writ, to Thursday next.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave notice, that, on Monday, he should bring in a Bill for continuing the commission of military Inquiry.
844
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, July 20.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Mellish
presented several petitions from the ministers, church-wardens, and overseers of the poor of different parishes in the city of London, against Mr. Whitbread's bill for the Education and Relief of the Poor. The petitions were respectively ordered to lie on the table till the second reading of the Poor Relief bill, and referred to the committee on the Parochial School bill. Similar petitions were presented from the magistrates of Surrey, and from different places, which were disposed of in a similar way.—A new writ was ordered for the Borough of Winchelsea in the room of sir F. F. Vane, bart. who since his election had accepted the office of steward of the Chiltern Hundreds.—Sir C. Pole presented a petition from R. Eyre, esq. relative to a sum of 59,000
l
845
[BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—COMPLAINT RESPECTING THE POOLE WRIT.] Mr. Barham
stated, that he held in his hand a petition from Mr. Jonathan Brundrett, now a prisoner in Newgate, offering to answer the questions which the house might put to him, and expressing sorrow for having incurred the displeasure of the house. It happened, unfortunately, that, upon the motion of an hon. gent. (Mr. Jeffery), the further consideration of the business was postponed till Thursday. As to the case of Mr. Brundrett, he trusted that it would meet the general feeling of the house to bring him up to-morrow, in order that he might be examined, and then discharged, as his present confinement was very injurious to him in his professional avocations. The petition was then read. It stated, that the petitioner was sensible that he had justly incurred the displeasure of that house. He declared that, in refusing to answer questions put to him by the house, his motive was not from any disrespect of the house, or disregard for its authority, but that he had acted merely from a general sense of his professional fidelity. He also declared that he was by no means instrumental in delaying the writ, as he delivered it to the person who employed him, within a very few hours after he had himself received it. He was himself entirely unacquainted with any of the candidates for the borough of Poole. He no longer persevered in refusing to disclose the persons who employed him, and was ready and willing to answer whatever questions the house should think proper to put to him, and hoped the house would permit him to be examined at their bar.— The petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. Barham then moved that the petitioner should be brought up to-morrow to be examined.
The Speaker
conceived that it would be contrary to the established rules of the house, that a business, which was fixed for
846
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
conceived that the house could not, in this instance, depart from its accustomed rules, but he had no objection to Mr. Brundrett's being called up to-morrow, for the purpose of being discharged. He thought that Mr. Brundrett had by his petition, and declaring himself ready to answer, set himself right with the house, and he did not think that it could be their wish to keep him longer in confinement. If, then, the hon. gent. would alter his motion, and move for his being called up, not to be examined, but to be discharged, the personal inconvenience would be removed from the individual, and the rules of the house would be preserved.
The Speaker
thought this would remove the objection. He might be discharged to-morrow, and an order might be then made that he should attend for the purpose of being examined on Thursday, that the house should go into the business.
Mr. Jeffery
said, that he should be perfectly satisfied under those circumstances, that Mr. Brundrett should be called up tomorrow, for the purpose of being discharged. It was then ordered, that Mr. Brundrett should be called up to-morrow, for the purpose of being discharged.
[POOR RELIEF BILL.] Mr. Whitbread
moved the order of the day, for the second reading of the Poor Relief Bill.
Mr. Morris rose
and said, that although there were some parts of the bill to which he objected, yet there were some provisions of it so important, and so conducive, as he conceived, to the interest and comfort of the labouring poor, that he trusted the house would feel disposed to adopt them. The first feature of the bill, which he decidedly approved of, was the empowering magistrates to grant warrants of relief for those whom they knew to be proper objects. He also highly approved of the relief being given to the poor occupier of a cottage, simply furnished. As the law now stood, a person must sell his house, his furniture, his bed, and even the tools of his trade, before he was recognized as an object of relief. Those things, however, were as necessary as food itself; and it was only increasing the burthen on the parish to reduce the pauper to such an extremity of distress, that he should not
847
Mr. Davies Giddy
would also vote for the second reading, but had strong doubts as to the propriety of the proposed relaxation of the laws of settlement.
Mr. Whitbread
rose shortly to reply. He was extremely sorry his hon. and learned friend behind him (Mr. Morris) disapproved of many points in the bill, which he himself conceived highly essential to a satisfactory amelioration of the poor-laws. There were, however, several of the clauses, which his hon. friend did approve; and if he could not obtain all the clauses embraced by the bill, he was desirous at least for the enactment of those, against which no material objection had been expressed. With respect to that clause in the bill which tended to facilitate the obtainment of settlements to poor persons long resident in a parish, he was extremely sorry to find a right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose), who was the first to introduce a relaxation into the laws upon that head, opposed to the present clause. In his own conception, nothing could be more inconsistent with reason, justice, and humanity, than the law as it now stood, which refused settlement to a
848
849
Mr. Rose
took shame to himself, that he was not aware the bill was to have been this day read a second time. There were many clauses of the bill which he approved of, and thought they might be productive of much good; but there were others which he thought liable to strong exceptions, as tending very much to unsettle a system which, however desirous he might be to improve it, ought not to be materially changed without the utmost deliberation. He acknowledged he had originated the clause in 1793, which facilitated the acquisition of settlements to the members of friendly societies. He wished the principle could have been extended generally, but there were a great variety of instances, in which it would operate oppressively upon numberless parishes. Upon the whole, he wished the bill or the present to be improved as far as possible in the committee, that it might be printed, and sent forth for public consideration, and again taken up in the next session with further opportunities for deliberation.
Mr. Whitbread
lamented, that the right hon. gent. whose habits of industry had inclined him to pay more attention to this subject than any other member of that house, should now say he was unprepared. After the bill had been introduced in the last session, divided into four, discussed in a committee, printed, distributed through the country for the consideration of the magistrates; and, after the notice of a week that the bill was to be read a second time this day, that the right hon. gent. should say he had not considered it, was extraordinary; and if such a plea came from him, what could he expect from other members less in the habit of attending to such subjects? He had been charged with pertinacity in continuing to urge forward this system; but he disclaimed all pertinacity. He hoped, however, there was nothing reprehensible in a member of that house persevering in measures which to him appeared right and salutary for the public good; and if the right hon. gent. did not approve the whole bill, there were some clauses at least, which he allowed were admissible, and to the enactment of those he could surely have no objection
Mr. Lushington
spoke generally in favour of the bill, though there were a few points
850
Mr. Simeon
denied there was any such law in existence, as that which he was surprized to find taken for granted in the course of this debate, namely, a law empowering the overseers of the poor, to refuse relief to a pauper, until he should have sold all his little furniture for his maintenance. He had heard, indeed, that overseers in many parishes, where there was no resident justice of the peace, assumed to make such a law, or to act as if it were in existence; but he hoped it would not go forth to the country, that any such law existed in the British statute books. Such a principle was directly contradictory to the statute of the 9th of Geo. I. which gave the magistrate an appellant jurisdiction on the overseer's refusal, and empowered him to award relief upon affidavit, shewing just ground.—After a few words in explanation, the bill was read a second time and ordered to be committed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, July 21.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion that the bill for extending the Royalty of Glasgow be now read a third time, Mr. Maxwell moved as an amendment, that the said bill be read this day three months, which after a conversation, in which Mr. Boswell, Mr, Laing, and Mr. Creevey supported the amendment, and the lord advocate and solicitor general of Scotland the bill, was negatived on a division of 41 to 21. The bill was then read a third time and passed.— Mr. Mellish presented petitions from the parishes of St. Mary, Islington, and St. Clements Danes, against the Parochial Poor Relief bill.—The Speaker acquainted the house that lieut. col. Alexander Park not having entered the required recognizances within the time limited by act or parliament, the petition complaining of an undue return for the shire of Kinross fell to the ground, and the order for hearing the same was discharged. The time for entering into recognizances on the petition complaining of the undue return of sir James Craig tor the town of
851
[PAPERS RELATING TO THE POLYGARS.] Sir T. Turton
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for certain papers tending to throw light upon the conduct of the Indian government towards the Polygars. His object was to vindicate the character of the country, by the investigation of the parts of the Indian system, which called most loudly for enquiry, and as far as that should be found possible, affording redress where in jury had been done. He wished also to impress the necessity of correcting the whole system on which the government of India had been for some time conducted. The
852
Mr. R. Dundas
had no objection to the production of the papers, but entered his protest against any inference of criminality in any one in the measure of disarming the Polygars, which had been rendered indispensably necessary by the disorders these Polygars were eternally committing. He should himself move for further papers, with a view to place the whole subject in a fair light.
Mr. Addington
entered his protest against the prevailing practice of moving for papers with a view to crimination, without any ground whatsoever to induce a presumption that there had been criminality.
Lord Folkestone
said, he should be ready, early in the next session, to proceed to the discussion and decision of the Oude question.
Mr. Grant
rose to state, that nothing could be more erroneous than to suppose that the late unfortunate affair at Vellore arose from a system, or a design to interfere, in any manner, with any of the habits of the natives. There was no such design at home or abroad; and though such an idea had for some time been prevalent here, he could assure the house, from a particular perusal of the papers relating to the transaction, that there was no ground whatever for the opinion. The principal motive of the authors of that lamentable
853
Mr. W. Keene
entered into an historical detail of the proceedings with respect to the Polygars, which he defended.
Mr. Wallace
vindicated not only the court of directors, but the government of Madras, from the charge of interfering with the habits and prejudices of the natives of India.—After a few observations from sir A. Wellesley, the papers were ordered; and also several other papers moved for by Mr. Dundas.
[PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS BILL.]
On the motion of Mr. Whitbread, the house went into a committee on the Parochial Schools bill.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
said, that understanding from the hon. gent. that that was the stage for proposing any clauses that might be deemed necessary, he rose for the purpose of submitting a clause to the committee. His great objection to the bill in its present form was the mode of carrying into effect the relief proposed, namely, by compulsion. He disapproved entirely of compulsion; in its present form, the bill was not to be fitted to the parish, but the parish to the bill, and this he thought would be in general impracticable: besides, if compulsory, it might considerably check the spontaneous charity of many individuals: another objection was, that it was teaching the persons relieved that they might claim as a right that relief which they ought to be taught to look upon as a favour. He was not at all anxious that any of these bills should pass into a law this session. The public were anxious to give their opinion upon them, and, as far as he could learn, that opinion was against them, for certainly he had heard of many petitions against the bill, and not one in favour of it. The clause he had to propose was, that it be lawful for the Churchwardens, parish officers, &c. to hold vestries in their respective parishes, for the purpose of taking into consideration the best means of establishing a school or schools, under the direction of fit persons, to be by them appointed for the better education and instruction of the poor of the said parish. Something to this effect, he thought, would be better than any compulsory method; for certainly the inhabitants of each parish were better judges of the claims of their own poor, and their own means to judge of and provide for these claims, than
854
Mr. W. Smith
said, he was not at all sure that the house could pass this measure in the form of a law this session, but it might perhaps be expedient at least to make it take the shape and form of a law, as they were all agreed as to the necessity of instructing the poor. It was giving power to the churchwardens to do, under the sanction of parliament, what they already were in the habit of doing; and as he approved so much of the principle of the bill, he should support it in its present state.
Mr. Hawkins Browne
thought it was certainly the duty of parliament to provide regulations to instruct the poor; but to get them to receive it, was a very different thing. In many parishes, the office of school-master would become a perfect sinecure. It would be extremely difficult to find any number of parishes to which the same law would properly apply. Some contained 10,000 inhabitants, while others contained only 30. Some were flourishing in their manufactures and trade, and others decaying. Some were supported by agriculture alone. Some had no endowments, while others had charitable institutions and free-schools. While he disapproved of the measure, he at the same time gave the hon. gent. who had brought it forward, great credit for his patriotism and zeal for the public good, but he really thought parliament had not come to a sufficient investigation of the subject, to enable them to come to a law, even although this had been an earlier period of the session.
Mr. Wilberforce
was glad to perceive that his own opinion, as to the desirableness of not passing the bill during the present session, seemed to accord with the general disposition of the house. It was certainly more important that this subject should be decided upon, than that it should be decided upon soon. It was highly to be wished, that there should not be any appearance of forcing this plan upon the people, and he regretted to find upon conversing with many magistrates, and other country gentlemen, that they were not so well disposed towards it as he was himself. At the same time, he could not approve of the amendment proposed by the hon. gent., because, if the voluntary measure which he recommended, should be unsuccessful, it would be very difficult afterwards to carry the compulsory one into execution. The necessity of instruction among the lower classes in the south
855
Mr. Whitbread
expressed himself happy to find, from the conclusion of the hon. gent.'s speech, that he continued to be an advocate for the diffusion of knowledge: such an opinion was to be expected from a man of his character and conduct, and one who had paid such unremitting attention to similar subjects. He owned, however, that he was somewhat surprised at the inclination for delay which that hon. gent. had manifested. Had he not proofs in other parts of the world of the benefits which resulted from the diffusion of the truths of the gospel? And how were those truths to be still further diffused in this country, but by putting into every one's hands the keys of knowledge? The hon. gent. had allowed that the instruction of the Irish was indispensable with the safety of the empire; was a moment then to be lost? He (Mr. Whitbread) was then what that hon. gent. had often been, in the hands of the gradual abolitionists of the bill. The postponement would be espoused by those who hoped, by putting off the bill to another session, to get rid of it altogether. The measure had been opposed without having been even read, for if it had been read, it could never have been asserted that it was compulsory. It did
856
857
Mr. Wilberforce
in explanation, declared that on no subject had he formed a more deliberate, and at the same time a more decided opinion, than on the advantages which a country must derive from the instruction of its people. The difference of opinion entertained by the magistrates, and others with whom he had conversed, was not on the benefit of instruction, but on the mode of conveying it.
Sir John Newport
was decidedly in favour of a measure which the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) supposed to be most intimately connected with the interest of Ireland and the general welfare of the empire. He thought it, however, to be his duty to state what was the opinion of a man who was not only a friend to the regular establishments of these conntries, but also to its political interests, and who was universally acknowledged to be a friend to the human race, he meant Mr. Howard the philanthropist: that patriotic and moral man had travelled through Ireland, and he stated, that if ever we attempted to incorporate any particular principles of faith with our education of the people in Ireland, we should certainly fall short of our object. He therefore hoped, that as far as respected that country the system of education would be conducted on the most liberal and enlightened principles of toleration.
Mr. Rose
urged the postponement of this measure. There appeared a general disinclination to it throughout the country, and in proof of this, he read a letter from a gentleman, stating, that at a quarter sessions, where above 30 magistrates were assembled, this measure had met with general disapprobation. He trusted, however, that the hon. gent.'s well-meant endeavours would give the greater facility to some practicable mode being adopted. He hoped that a plan would be effected, which should admit of mixing habits of industry with education; for in many places there was a disinclination in the lower orders to
858
Mr. Simeon
thought the question came to this, whether it were better to adopt a voluntary or a compulsory mode of education. He found a general objection against enforcing this measure by compulsion. Poor parents were not averse to have their children educated; but from the ages of 7 to 14, in country places, they could send their children into the fields, and gain something for the better support of their families; and if deprived of this advantage, they would come sooner upon the parishes for relief. He thought no one could object to the education of the poor, provided it was coupled with religious instruction. He objected also to this measure, on account of its expense.
Mr. Lushington
objected to the amendment, as tending to render the measure itself perfectly nugatory.
For the amendment
33
Against it
12
Majority
21
Mr. Pole Carew
speaking against the bill. He said, he could never admit the justice of laying such an impost as two millions a year, the amount of the charge according to his
859
Mr. Whitbread
immediately rose. He said, the hon. gent. had attempted to cast a degree of ridicule upon the preamble and the intent of the bill, which, in his opinion, it did not deserve. The hon. gent. asked, would any man say, after considering the principle in the way he had put it, whether morals were likely to be improved by writing and arithmetic? He (Mr. W.) was the man that would now stand forward, and answer, that they would; and he was ready to vindicate his opinion, but should be glad to hear the hon. gent. defend his own. He would assert, without fear of contradiction from any rational man, that writing and arithmetic, so far as they tended to exercise and improve the human understanding, tended also to improve morality; and that every vestige of knowledge, in progression from the humblest to the highest and most refined, operated proportionably to the improvement of morality amongst mankind.— After some farther discussion, the bill was gone through, reported forthwith, ordered to be printed as amended, and to be taken into further consideration on Monday next.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, July 22.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Sumner
presented a petition from John Alcock, esq., praying for an enlargement of the term for entering into recognizances on the petition complaining of an undue return for the borough of Lancaster, on the ground of the indisposition of one of the sureties. He then moved, that the time of entering into recognizances be enlarged to Monday next. Sir J. Newport and Mr. P. Moore opposed the motion, on the ground that the time had passed for presenting such petitions. Mr. Dent pledged himself in a few days to bring before the house a scene of iniquity on
860
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY] Lord Castlereagh
in pursuance of the notice which he had had the honour to give, rose to call the attention of the house to the military measures which his majesty's ministers had thought it their duty to propose; a subject at all times important, but perhaps never so important as at the present momentous crisis. It had been to him a subject of considerable uneasiness, that the production of these measures had been somewhat delayed by his own personal indisposition; but there ware other and more serious causes which had induced government not to be hasty in bringing them forward. His majesty's ministers could not but feel, on coming into office, that the event of the campaign on the continent which was then opening, whether favourable or disastrous, was likely to present to the observation of parliament, the truest motives for inciting then to exertion—motives much more powerful than any which the statements of government could otherwise produce. He could also assure the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Windham), that his majesty's ministers were anxious that their return to office should not be marked with any undue impatience to subvert the plans of their predecessors. Among the eminent qualities of the right hon. gent. the solicitude to destroy established systems was one, which he owned he was least desirous to emulate. Impressed with these feelings, his majesty's ministers examined deliberately the military system already in existence. He was prepared to admit, that whatever objections he felt to that system, he also felt considerable difficulty in making a fundamental alteration in it. A comparatively inferior system laid claim to protection, from the circumstance of its being in existence; and therefore, in what he should offer to the house, the right hon. gent. would not find such a deliberate purpose of alteration as perhaps he expected, or as characterized his own arrival in that department, which he (lord C.) had now the honour to fill. Having thus stated the reasons why this subject had not been submitted at an earlier period to the consideration of parliament, he should now feel it
861
862
863
864
865
866
867
868
869
870
871
872
873
Sir George Warrender
thought that the noble lord had not made out any case to shew, that any considerable addition was necessary to the disposeable force. It appeared to him extraordinary that with the views entertained by the hon. gentlemen opposite, and considering the charges made by them against their predecessors, for not having sent expeditions to the continent,they had not made this proposition to parliament upon their first coming into office. If the measure had been brought forward last session, and he had had the honour of a seat in that house, he might have supported it; but he could not give his consent to it on the present occasion, when the country had only to look for a defensive force. As to the transfer proposed from the militia to the regiments of the line, he felt considerable difficulties upon that subject, because the measures necessary to replace the men so transferred would interfere with the regular recruiting. The militia was certainly a favourite service, because it was limited both as to time and place, and was attended with a provision for the wives and families of the persons who engaged in it. There could be no doubt therefore that men would be more readily had for that service than for the line, a circumstance that would materially interfere with the ordinary recruiting. The system that had beer adopted last year, he contended, had proves eminently successful. The right hon. gent. who had brought forward that system, had uniformly stated that the benefits to be expected from it would be progressive, and the event justified his statement. The effect produced by it in the northern counties was very great, and by the papers upon the table, it appeared that by this system the number of men raised in the year 1807, was greater by 700, than the number raised in the corresponding period of last year under
874
Mr. Yorke
wished to take the earliest
875
876
sui generis
877
878
879
880
Mr. Bathurst
coincided in most of the sentiments expressed by his right hon. friend, though he could not help being surprised at his having introduced into his discussion topics that had no immediate connexion with the question then under consideration. He contended that the measure of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) was adequate to the purposes for which it had been intended, though it might not be sufficient to afford an immediate supply,such as the crisis demanded. His noble friend needed not to apologize for having made his proposition to parliament; the apology should, according to his impression, be for not having made it before. If the country was to be saved, it was by becoming an armed nation that its salvation was to be effected. He agreed with his right hon. friend, that the question now was, whether the ballot was to be employed for recruiting the militia, or raising an army of reserve; but he had some doubts of the propriety of allowing the militia to volunteer into the line, especially as the principal object of the measure was the internal defence. He was afraid, however, that his noble friend had his attention too much bent upon foreign and continental expeditions. The house should keep in view that it was desirable to have a force disposeable for Great Britain and Ireland. His right hon. friend had stated that the militia was in a declining state, but he had omitted to state that this measure would destroy the spirit of those who commanded and kept up that force. His noble friend had said, that it was not his intention to interfere with the existing establishments, but by this arrangement he would most materially injure a more important branch of the national force. Whenever the Militia had been before drafted into the line,
881
882
Mr. Windham
though he admitted that that was not the proper time for discussing the measure proposed in detail, yet found it impossible to omit that occasion of contradicting and confuting, as he trusted, to the satisfaction of the house, some of the statements that had been made by the noble lord opposite. He felt it also necessary to trespass upon the indulgence of the house, in order to reduce the question to its real grounds. Since the noble lord had opened his plan, another, the competitor of that plan, had been recommended by the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Yorke), and his right hon. friend who had just sat down. If the ballot was again to be resorted to, he was inclined to think with those right hon. gentlemen; that it might be better used for raising an army of reserve, than in the way recommended by the noble lord. The plan of the noble lord was calculated to break down a most valuable branch of the military establishments of the country, and for the attainment of a force, which for a considerable time could not be superior to it. He had often been in the habit of contending in that house, that regiments of the line must be superior to militia regiments; and certainly he did not conceive that, in so doing, he was giving reasonable cause of offence to any description of persons whatever. It was not in the nature of things that troops, who could not by their constitution have any opportunity of real service, except in case of invasion, could acquire the same spirit and character, or attain to equal discipline, with troops accustomed to act together, and to witness the conduct of their officers in circumstances of real danger. The officers, too, of the militia, who entered that service young, and with a view to pass a few years agreeably, would not devote themselves to their profession in the same way as persons who
883
misnomer
the preserve
884
885
un
886
887
888
functus officio
889
maximum
minimum
890
891
892
893
894
895
896
897
898
899
900
901
maximum
902
903
undiminished
904
905
906
Mr. Herbert
expressed much regret, that at the time of the union something more effectual had not been done to assimilate and in some measure identify the constitution and services of the militias of the two countries. If such an assimilation in all respects could be effected between these two bodies, the advantages resulting from it to the military strength of the empire would be incalculable. He had only to wish that the noble lord (Castlereagh) had proposed some measure to that purpose, at the time when he had it so much in his power to exert the influence and weight of the situation in which the noble lord was then placed.
Mr. Shaw Lefevre
thought the Army of Reserve act was the best military system this country had ever seen. When the late ministers quitted office, there were 600,000 effective men ready to defend the country, and he defied the present administration to keep up such a mass of military force, by their new systems.—The question was then put from the chair, and leave was given to bring in the bills moved for by lord Castlereagh.—The noble lord then brought up a bill "for allowing a certain proportion of the militia in Great Britain voluntarily to enlist into his majesty's regular forces;" and also, a bill "for the speedily completing the militia of Great Britain, and increasing the same, under certain limitations and restrictions;" which were read a first time.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, July 23.
[IRISH GLEBE HOUSES BILL.]
On the order of the day being moved for the second reading of this bill,
The Earl of Hardwicke
rose to state his promised objections to it, which he pronounced to be perfectly inadequate to its purposes, and indeed wholly useless. The urgent and notorious want of parsonages in Ireland, must have been felt by every friend to the Protestant establishment in that country, and he was sorry to see no grounds whatever urged for the necessity of the present measure, by which it did not appear that any sums necessary for carrying into effect the object of the bill were at all provided for, or were certain to be forthcoming.
Lord Redesdale
contended, that, however deficient the bill might be in many respects,
907
The Archbishop of Dublin
concurred in the observations made by the noble and learned lord, and contended, that there was no comparison between the advantages and disadvantages of the measure. Indeed, he felt it to be of the utmost importance, and the most urgent necessity.— The bill was then read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, July 23.
[EAST-INDIA BONDS BILL.] Mr. Hobhouse
brought up the report of the East-India Bonds bill. On the question that the amendments of the committee be read a second time,
Mr. Peter Moore
entered into a detailed statement of the affairs of the East-India company, in order to shew that its debts and embarrassments were the consequence of measures which had been forced upon the company, by the government and board of controul, for the effects of which, the company ought not to be responsible. It was in consequence of such measures, that the wars which had taken place in India, had embarrassed the company, that the participation on the part of the public had taken place but once, and contended, therefore, that the public had a right not only to make good to the proprietors their stock, to the amount of 12 millions, but also to discharge the whole of the floating debts of the company.
Mr. Dundas
replied, that that was not the time for entering into a detailed examination of the India accounts. It was a most extraordinary doctrine to maintain, that the expence of wars undertaken for the defence of the company's territories should be defrayed by the public. As to what had been said respecting the participation on the part of the public, he should only answer, by referring the hon. gent. to the act, in which there was an express exception of times of war.
Lord Folkestone
declared it to be his intention to resist the further progress of this bill, at least until the India accounts should be before the house, and the ground of his opposition was, that by the papers upon the table, the affairs of the company appeared to be in a dilapidated state.
908
Mr. W. Smith
could notagree in the position of his hon. friend, that the public should be responsible for the sums to be borrowed under this bill, or for any other of the East-India company's debts; and unless it should be understood from an explicit protest, a resolution of that house, that, by sanctioning this measure, it did not make the public a guarantee for the debts to be incurred under it by the India company, he could not consent to the measure.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was surprized that any doubts could be entertained upon this subject, after the manner in which it had been discussed on a former night. Undoubtedly, by passing this bill, that house was no more bound to guarantee the debts contracted pursuant to its provisions, than it was bound to guarantee the debts of any private company or corporation, authorized by act of parliament to raise money for the purposes of its institution. The money, in this instance, was to be raised on the sole responsibility of the company, to which alone, and not to the public, the lender was to look for the repayment of the sums he advanced.
Mr. Creevey
should support the opposition of his noble friend to the further progress of the measure, unless he should be given to understand that the third reading would not be pressed before the end of next week, by which time he understood the India papers would be before the house.
Mr. Grant
argued against the supposition that the public guaranteed these bonds, in allowing them to be issued. He contended, that the exclusive charter of the East-India company was the only means of preserving India to this country. The contingencies on which a participation in the company's profits had been promised to the public, had been retarded and prevented by a state of war. They had been calculated to accrue upon a prospect of peace.
Dr. Laurence
argued, that the fear of the eventual liability of parliament arose from the want of sufficient proofs of the validity of the company's security, which parliament was bound to ascertain, before it should give its sanction to the issue of the Bonds. After some further explanation, the amendments were agreed to.
Mr. Whitbread
insisted that time should be allowed to make enquiry into the solvency of the company before any farther proceedings on the bill.
Mr. Dundas
had no objection to a delay
909
[IRISH INSURRECTION BILL.]
On the motion for going into a committee on this bill,
Mr. Whitbread
said, he assented to the bill's going into a committee, from the assurance he had received of the present alarming state of the country from others, besides those who now directed its government, and because he hoped to find it in a much less objectionable shape when it came out of the committee. To the preamble in particular, he must object
primâ facie,
Sir J. Newport
spoke to the same effect. The preamble was grounded on the circumstances existing in Ireland, in 1796, which were very opposite to the circumstances of the present time.
Sir A. Wellesley
did intend to propose an alteration of the preamble.
910
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, July 24
[MINUTES.]
In a committee on the expiring laws bill, Mr. Rose moved a resolution for continuing to the 25th of March next, the act for suspending certain penalties in the woollen manufacture. Lord Milton urged the importance of coming to a final adjustment of the differences existing between the various classes of persons concerned in the woollen manufacture. With a view to accelerate this final adjustment he moved, as an amendment. that the duration of the Suspension act should be limited to four weeks after the commencement of the next session of parliament. Mr. P. Moore stated, that an arrangement of the differences in the woollen
911
[IRISH INSURRECTION BILL.] Sir A. Wellesley
moved the committal of the Irish Insurrection bill.
Sir John Newport
proposed an amendment in the clause, enacting, that a serjeant or barrister at law should preside at each of the county meetings for trying offenders under the bill. The house divided: For the amendment, 29; against it, 53.
Sir John Newport
stated, that gross abuses, as he knew from local information, had prevailed in the searching of houses, particularly with respect to females, who had in some cases been indecently outraged. He wished, therefore, for an amendment in the clause respecting the searching of houses after sun-set. The amendment which he would propose was, That the magistrate should make out a list of proper persons to be employed for this purpose, for the approbation of the quarter sessions, and that he should be responsible for the good behaviour of such persons in the discharge of their duty. If this could not be adopted, and he foresaw no objection to it from the chance that persons so approved of might not be present at the time they might be wanted, he would then propose that the magistrate should be bound in a penalty of 100
l
912
Sir A. Wellesley and the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had no objection to the principle of the latter amendment, but wished it should be delayed till the report of the bill, that they might have time to consider whether it could be adopted in consistency with other necessary objects.
Mr. Croker
proposed an amendment to the clause, substituting instead of the words, "and in case of refusal to enter by force," the following words, "and in case admittance shall be refused tea minutes after being demanded, then such magistrates and their officers, bailiffs, &c. shall be allowed to break into said dwelling by force."
Colonel Vereker
disapproved of the words, "ten minutes;" he thought such amendments would go to fritter away the bill altogether.
Sir S. Romilly
was astonished, that in the case of so serious a nature as forcible entry into the house of the king's subjects, a provision to give that subject a reasonable time to provide against that forcible entry by voluntarily admitting the officer, should be termed by any gentleman in that house an attempt to fritter away the bill. It was a clause not so much of relaxation as of common justice.
Colonel Vereker
explained, and said that there was another objection to such precise mention of the time, that unless there was moonlight, or that the bailiffs had lights and matches, it could not be ascertained.
Colonel Barry
said, that another objection was, that the majority of such officers were not individually worth a watch.
Dr. Laurence
ridiculed such objections, and contended that the "ten minutes" should be distinctly specified.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had no objection to the amendment, provided the words "a reasonable time" were put for the words "ten minutes," for if an entire village was to he searched, ten minutes waiting at the door of every house in that village would be an unconscionable length of time; he proposed, therefore, the substitution of the words "a reasonable time."
Mr. Croker
acquiesced in the substitution proposed by the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Whitbread and sir J. Newport
commented forcibly on the vagueness of the terms suggested by the chancellor of the
913
Mr. Laing
instanced the definite time expressly limited in the riot act, and thought the present case as more deeply involving the rights of the subject, than the dispersion of a lawless mob by force of arms; he thought the hon. gent. (Mr. Croker) had been indeed hasty in giving way to certain authorities.
Mr. Croker
said, in justification of himself, that he was but a young member of parliament, and that it was natural for him to bow to authority; besides, he thought that the right hon. baronet over the way approved of the words "a reasonable time," [here sir J. Newport expressly signified his dissent]; however, he was himself inclined to think the final words "ten minutes," better than those last proposed, though he should not wish to divide the committee upon them.
Mr. Grattan
said that the committee were about to invest an extraordinary power somewhere. It ought therefore to be done with caution: but who were the persons to be invested with the power? perhaps some lawless miscreant, some vagabond, or perhaps the discretion of their "reasonable time", was to be lodged in the bosom of any convenient menial, some postilion, coachman, hostler, or ploughboy, who under the sanction of the law was to judge when it would be a reasonable time for him to rush into the apartment of a female, while she was hastily throwing on her clothes, to open the door to this midnight visitor; this would give a wound that would be felt long; it would throw a general odium about the bill. If the character of the bill would be saved, any thing admitting the possibility of such abuse should be sacrificed to it.
Mr. J. C. Beresford
said, that a stranger who had heard the last twenty minutes conversation, would be apt to suppose that the Irish magistrates had a general propensity to break open doors and burst into ladies' bed-chambers. He vindicated the Irish magistracy, and said, that he did not speak there as a party-man, but as an Irishman.
Mr. Abercrombie
was convinced, from what came within his own knowledge, of the necessity of great caution in the case now before the committee. He thought it much better to have the time ascertained by law.
The Solicitor-General
thought that the
914
Mr. Grattan
said, that the learned gent. had told the committee what it ought to argue upon, and what it ought not to argue upon. It was good in that learned gent. to give the committee the aid of his instruction: but is the gentleman, said Mr. Grattan, quite sure of being himself altogether right? In the first place, all the other questions are not wholly gone by; for I may agree to the clause or its modification, or reject both, and afterwards agree to or dissent from the principle of the bill itself. Again, has the learned gent. been right in his statement of the question? He has argued on the propriety of vesting the magistrate with the discretion of judging of the "reasonable time;" but this is not the question. It is, whether you vest any commissioned ruffian with that discretion? Here, then, the learned gent. mistated what he was to argue upon and then did he even argue fairly on that mistatement?—No; for he takes that as impossible which I myself have known to have taken place. He says, such ruffians as I describe could never have been officially employed, and have made their office the pretence of wanton ou
Dr. Laurence
and sir S. Romilly followed on the same side, both gentlemen's ating, that their right hon. friend (Mr.
915
For the "ten minutes,"
30
For "a reasonable time,"
71
Majority
41
d
Mr. Brand
moved that the whole clause be omitted, as grossly unjust and unconstitutional.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
admitted that the clause was not one which he could have wished to see introduced: but, when the necessity of the case was considered; when it was recollected that the state of Ireland required that very irksome and disagreeable duties should be imposed on the magistrates, winch they would be unwilling to perform, and which, in fact, it would be dangerous, for them to perform with the zeal and fidelity required, unless they were protected from the effects of unintentional errors into which, from appearances, they might be led; when, in short, it was considered that the very jurors in such actions of damages might be persons against whom it had been necessary for them to exercise the enactments of this act, and whose minds might, of that account, be inflamed against them; when all these things were considered, it was the opinion of those best acquainted with the state of Ireland, that the act must be imperfectly executed, unless the magistrates were secured by a clause like the present.
Sir Arthur Pigott
said, he was decidedly of opinion, that the provision now objected
916
The Attorney-General
contended, that the enactment now objected to was not so novel as the hon. and learned baronet had supposed. He confessed that plaintiffs in the situation alluded to were to be deprived of the benefit of the common law; but was not this already the case in all revenue questions? Where an officer of the revenue was sued, nothing but the dry damage sustained by the injured party was awarded against him. Where it was a question of intention in revenue cases, and no intention could be shewn, the plaintiff could not recover; and it had been determined, in the
917
Mr. Boyle
(solicitor-general for Scotland)
contended that the hon. and learned gent. (sir A. Pigott) had gone too far in treating the proposed resolution as so great a novelty, and as so grievous an infringement of the law and constitution of this country. If the hon. and learned gent. had consulted the statute book, he would have found that similar resolutions as to Ireland had been passed repeatedly before this time, nay that at this moment such formed a part of the law of the land. If the hon. and learned gent. had found the enactment in question so very obnoxious, why did he not come forward in his official situation, when he was attorney-general, and move that it be expunged from the statute book? He had no doubt that the hon. and learned person, when in office, agreed with his friends in the ministry in thinking the clause in dispute essential to the well-being of Ireland. He (Mr. Boyle) recollected being in the house on the evening when the present bill was introduced, and remembered perfectly well that gentlemen on every side agreed in the necessity of the measure, except one hon. gent., whom he now saw in his place, (Mr. Sheridan,) who declared, he had no doubt most conscientiously, his resolution to oppose the bill in every stage.
Mr. Whitbread
declared, that he had not heard a legal or constitutional sentiment uttered on the subject, except what had fallen from his hon. friend behind him, (sir A. Pigott). He had, indeed, heard something like an attempt at a legal defence of the measure, by shewing that such practices also prevailed in revenue questions. But would that render the power more agreeable to law or to the constitution? Was it not known and acknowledged, that our revenue laws were infractions of our constitutional liberties, and were only tolerated as acts of necessity, which, indeed, was the
918
Sir John Newport
related two cases in which the precipitancy of the magistrates had been the ru
l
919
Mr. Windham
always considered the principle of the revenue laws a very deplorable departure from the general principles of British legislation, and could not readily be induced to think that we ought to adopt what must be in some instances an unjust exception, instead of what was an acknowledged, just, and liberal established rule. The case of Sutton and Johnston was a singular exception not extremely worthy of imitation.
Colonel Vereker
was afraid this excellent bill was in danger of being frittered away.
The Solicitor-General
said, that if this clause was omitted, all the preceding clauses might be cancelled also.
General Loftus
spoke, from his own experience, in support of the clause.
Lord H. Petty
declared, that in every principle of justice we were bound to administer relief to the injured individual, even though it should not be done at the expence of the magistrate.
Lord Milton
reprobated severely the injustice of the measure: as a matter of policy even, it was to be considered, that such a measure would naturally irritate men's minds—when they felt that they had suffered damage, when they appealed to a court of justice, and a jury awarded them some compensation in damages, and yet it was not in the power of the jury to extend to the in ividual that justice to which they knew he was entitled. When he saw the verdict of the jury superseded by the decision of the judge, was that a way to reconcile the feelings of Irishmen? was that a way to bind Ireland by friendly attachment to this country?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
main-
920
áamnum sine injuriâ
Mr. Windham
said, that if the magistrate was supposed to be innocent, that is, with respect to the
quo animo
Mr. Morris
said, that if the verdict of a jury was supposed to be erroneous, the constitution had provided a legal mode of redress to the party who supposed himself aggrieved, as he might move for a new trial, then for a second, and so on to a third; and, if three juries of the county were agreed as to the same chief point, however highly he respected the character and general conduct of the judges in England and in Ireland, he must say, that he should think the verdict of three distinct juries infinitely preferable, to that of any individual who might oppose their decision, however highly venerable that individual might be seen in other respects.—The committee then divided upon this clause, and the numbers were: For the original clause, 75; for the amendment, 28; Majority 47.
Sir John Newport
rose and deprecated such a period, as it implied the contemplation of a necessity which might cease long before parliament was in the habit of annually considering the Mutiny bill, and the reasons which induced that habit pleaded with still stronger force for the annual consideration of a measure of this nature, which would go to put Ireland out of the pale of the constitution. What, he would ask, would gentlemen say, if it were proposed for such, or indeed for any period, to put England in such a situation?
Colonel Vereker
was an advocate for the clause; as was
General Phipps
who stated, that if England were in such a state as that of Ireland, or likely to be so, he believed that no English gentleman would be found to oppose the adoption of a measure similar to the present.
Mr. Windham
thought that shortening
921
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was decidedly of opinion that the clause ought to pass in its present stage, because there was no probability that the necessity which called for the bill would so soon cease; and also because it wits desirable to prevent the agitation of a question of this nature so often as the right hon. baronet professed to wish lest such agitation might tend to aggravate the evil which the bill was meant to cure.
Mr. Grattan
deprecated the continuance of the bill for so long a term as that proposed by the clause now in discussion, and earnestly intreated the house to comply with the suggestion of his right hon. friend (sir J. Newport). The right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, he said, had argued, that this bill would cease to operate as soon as the occasion for it should cease, and that it could be no grievance where it was not in operation. He (Mr. G) denied the fact. Would the house, without any proofs at its bar, or appointing any committee to enquire into the situation of Ireland, and report on the necessity of the case, proceed to pass a bill, abrogating in Ireland for three years, the rights of the constitution, merely because, at present, there was a manifest disposition in some places which called for vigilance and the strong hand of coercion? Was it no grievance to declare the power of the crown absolute and to authorize government proclaim the whole or any part of the people of Ireland out of the king's peace, and liable to military execution or arbitrary transportation? But, supposing such power vested in the hands of the most wise and humane chief governor that ever existed, was it no grievance for a free people to feel themselves placed in such a predicament for 3 whole years, without any examination into the necessity of such a measure? Would the people of England think it no grievance that parliament should declare the power of the crown absolute for 3 years, even under the most mild, humane, and benevolent monarch that ever existed? He had said, that he would vote for this bill,
922
923
924
Mr. J. C. Beresford
congratulated the house, the country, and the right hon. gent., on the sentiments which he had just uttered, and which he hoped and trusted would have a due impression in Ireland.
General Loftus
concurred in this congratulation.
Lord Howick
deprecated the idea, that any objection offered by himself and his friends to the details of this measure, proceeded from a disposition to oppose the principle of the measure itself. On the contrary, he was anxious to support the bill, with regard to the necessity for which no change whatever had taken place in his sentiments since his retirement from office. But, as to the bill itself, he declared that although a draft of it had been sent to him from Ireland, just previous to the change of administration, he had never read it until lately introduced by the right hon. baronet.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
declared his satisfaction at the speech of the right hon. gent. which had excited so much admiration, but re-stated his reasons for proposing the enactment of the measure for two years, which nothing that he had heard could induce him to alter. If the bill was not popular in Ireland, that was to him a proof of its necessity.—The committee then divided: For the original clause, 68; against it, 21. After which the house resumed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Sssaturday, July 25.
[MINUTES.]
The petition complaining of undue elections and returns for the county of Kilcardine, and for the boroughs of Oakhampton and East Grimstead, were discharged, as the petitioners had failed entering into the necessary recognizances.—Sir A. Wellesley moved for, and obtained leave to bring in, two bills; the one for allowing a certain number of men to volunteer from the Irish militia into the regiments of the line; the other for increasing the Irish militia to a certain extent, by ballot or by bounty. The bills were then brought up and read a first time.
[IRISH INSURRECTION BILL.]
The report of this bill was brought up.
Sir A. Wellesley
proposed an amendment, that, instead of the penalty of 100
l.
925
l.
l.
l.
Sir J. Newport
said, that he lamented to hear that the magistracy in Ireland was in such a degraded situation, that 100
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
considered, that the larger penalty would, instead of producing any good effect, only tend to alarm the magistrates, and prevent men from undertaking the duties of that situation.
Sir J. Newport
thought it was a most serious consideration, to think what chance of justice the people of Ireland had from magistrates that were not worth 100
l.
Colonel Vereker
considered that the penalty would be a severe hardship upon the magistrates, and that it might be incurred without any wilful neglect.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought that it would be better to take away the penalty altogether. The magistrates would still be liable to be proceeded against criminally for any neglect of duty; and if any individual should suffer injury from such neglect, that person might have his action for damages.—After some farther conversation, it was agreed that the penalty should be taken away altogether.
Sir J. Newport
then proposed a clause, that when arms should be surrendered in consequence of a district being proclaimed, the owners of those arms should receive them back again when the district was restored to the king's peace, or else they might sue the district for the value of them. He stated that there were innumerable instances of persons entitled to bear arms, who had registered them, and had yet been obliged to surrender those arms when the district was proclaimed, and could never get them back again. This was often a loss of considerable importance. Among other gentlemen who had so lost their arms, his right hon. friend (Mr. Grattan) was one. From his house there were taken pistols,
926
Mr. Foster
considered that it would be unsafe to convey those arms through a disturbed country, to such appointed places for keeping them, and did not know how actions could be brought against a district.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
although he had not disapproved at first of the principle of the clause, yet after what he had heard from his right hon. friend, he conceived it his duty to oppose it.—The clause was then negatived.
Sir J. Newport
then proposed, as an amendment, that instead of two years being mentioned as the duration of it, it should be one year.
The Speaker
observed, that the motion was not regular in that stage of the bill, as it would be an amendment upon an amendment.
Sir J. Newport
then said, that he should propose it on the third reading of the bill, and he considered it of such importance, that unless some such amendment were agreed to, he might perhaps think it necessary to take the sense of the house upon the bill itself. As the bill had now been much altered by the various amendments, he moved that it should be printed in its amended form.
Sir A. Wellesley
had no objection to the printing the amended bill, in order to give the fullest information to the members, but he would not pledge himself to postpone the third reading later than Monday, even if the bill should not be then printed.—The bill was ordered to be printed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday July 27.
[DISPUTE WITH AMERICA.] Lord Holland
rose to ask, whether it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to make any communication to parliament on a circumstance which was at present the subject of much conversation, he meant the report of hostilities having actually commenced be-
927
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that the only answer he could give was, that he had no authority to make any communication at present on the subject to which the noble lord had alluded. That noble lord, however, did him no more than justice when he supposed that every thing had been done on the part of his majesty's ministers to avoid so unfortunate a result as hostilities between this country and the United States of America. No one could lament that event more than he would, if it should take place; but in that case he should certainly feel it his duty to lay before parliament, at as early a period as possible, every information which would be necessary for them to form an opinion on the subject. Their lordships, however, he was sure, must be sensible of the impropriety of any premature communication, and therefore would nut expect any from him at this moment.
Lord Holland
in explanation observed, that it was not his wish to urge his majesty's ministers to any premature communication. He was only anxious to take the first opportunity of expressing his sense of the calamity which was said to have occurred, and his hope that parliament would not separate without receiving full information respecting its cause.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, July 27, 1807.
[LONDON PORT IMPROVEMENT BILL.]
On the reading of the order of the day, for the third reading of the London Port Improvement bill, which was for the advancing 30,000
l
Mr. W. Smith
rose and said, that he had the instruction of a very numerous class of traders in West-India produce, to oppose the bill; of the progress of which, to its present stage, he was wholly unaware, un-
928
Mr. Alderman Shaw
as a member of the dock company, declared that, in the course of his experience amongst them, he never witnessed the slightest disposition on the part of the company or their servants to inconvenience, much less to oppress or injure, any man; on the contrary it was their earnest wish, as well as their interest, to give facility and accommodation to every trader resorting to those docks, to the utmost of their power; and he was convinced they would, at any time, be ready, with the utmost cheerfulness and alacrity, to remove, upon representation, every cause of complaint to the utmost of their power. Besides, he begged leave to observe that the 30,000
l
Mr. Alderman Combe
allowed that there were many complaints made of disappointment and impediment, such as alluded to by his hon. friend who opposed the bill, but they were such as he had no doubt the company would be ready to remove upon fair representation.
929
Mr. Hibbert
supported the bill, defended the conduct of the company, and lamented that the hon. gent. who brought forward the objection had not himself more frequently visited the docks, and witnessed the alacrity and dispatch there evinced for public accomodation, and that he had heard the story only from prejudiced persons, whose complaints arose from their own irregularity, rather than from any fault of the company. If carts were crowded there in such numbers as rendered it impossible for them to be loaded within the hours daily appropriated to business, it was undoubtedly expensive and vexatious; but how were the company to blame? There were many, he believed, who did not like to send so far for the produce, and were averse to the docks on that account; and others who disliked them on account of the death blow they had given to smuggling, and to plunder upon the property of West-India merchants, from the moment they entered the river till they were cleared at the custom-house, which existed before those docks were erected: but the importance of those docks to the public would be better estimated by a calculation which he could prove, namely, that before the erection of those docks, the plunder of West-India produce upon the trade in London, amounted to half a million annually, besides the proportionate loss to the revenue. He trusted, therefore, the house would not, upon slight and unexamined grounds, withhold the aid proposed by this bill from an object of such public importance.—The bill was then read a third time, and passed.
[FOREIGN TREATIES AND DISPUTE WITH AMERICA.] Mr. Whitbread
rose and observed, that he had waited to the last moment in the hope of seeing the right hon. the foreign secretary, in his place, that he might put to him some questions. He could not however, let the present occasion pass by without submitting these questions to the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer. It would be in the recollection of the house that the right hon. gent., whose absence he had alluded to, had on a former night, in reply to a question put by him, respecting the treaties or engagements with foreign powers, noticed in the speech at the commencement of the session, stated, that he had reason to believe, that he should be authorised to lay those treaties before the house, either the week before last, or last week at
930
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
in the absence of his right hon. friend, would answer the questions of the hon. gent. He assured the hon. member, that it was the intention of his right hon. friend to make the communication, he promised, to-morrow. At the same time he must observe, that his right hon. friend had not intimated, that he would lay a treaty or treaties before the house. The hon. member and the house would recollect, that, in what passed on the former night, his right hon. friend had stated only that the treaty alluded to depended upon a contingency, which contingency, if it should not take place, would render it unnecessary to produce the treaty to the house. With respect to the other question of the hon. gent, he should hope that there would be no necessity to make any communication upon the subject. What he should state at present was, tha as a member of his majesty's government, he was not in possession of all the circumstances of the case, and could not therefore make any distinct communication upon the subject. All he should say was, that if, upon receiving the necessary information, it should appear that there was any thing improper or unjustifiable in the conduct of the officer concerned, there certainly would be every wish on the part of his majesty's minis-
931
Mr. Whitbread
disclaimed any idea of imputing blame to any man, and was glad that he had asked the information, because the answer he had received from the right hon. gent. afforded him great consolation.
[MILITIA TRANSFER BILL.]
On the question being put for the second reading of the Militia Transfer bill,
Sir Robert Williams
rose to oppose the bill. He approved altogether of the system that had been produced last year by the late ministers, and he had expected that the hon. gentlemen opposite had become converts to its merits, and that they would have had the manliness to acknowledge the fact. He called, then, on all the independent gentlemen in that house, to support their own consistency by supporting that system, which they had last year so deliberately and solemnly sanctioned. He had always been a friend to enlistment for a limited period, and he was confirmed in his opinion by the success that had attended its adoption. That system had raised 22,000 men in one year, and would continue to produce more, because the measure would be improving daily and hourly, so as in a short time, to give the country a disposeable force, adequate to every national purpose. The object of the hon. gentlemen opposite was to overturn a system that had proved so beneficial. They proposed to take from the militia, a force best calculated for defence, in order to add to the disposeable force, which was not now wanted.—As to the inspecting field officers appointed to the volunteers, he maintained that they were of no use to the volunteers, because they had no authority over them, and could not put any corps through a single manœuvre, without the order of the colonel. The withdrawing these inspecting field officers would save 40,000
l
l
932
Colonel Stanley
also opposed the bill, because it would destroy the militia, and be oppressive to the country. The men that were to be taken from the militia, were to be replaced by the ballot. He did not approve of the measure, which held out encouragement to officers of militia to seek promotion in the line, by the number of men which they could influence to volunteer from the regiments. This would have most injurious effect upon the militia, for which it was at present so difficult to procure proper subaltern officers. In the present critical circumstances of the country, he was very unwilling to oppose any measures that might be deemed necessary, but a sense of duty obliged him to oppose this measure in every stage. If, however, the bill should pass into a law he would not throw any impediment in the way of its operation. He trusted, that in such a case, a clause would be introduced to prevent the recruiting parties or commanding officers from tampering with the men. The militia was already in a declining state, and for his part he would much rather the noble lord had brought forward a proposition for annihilating the militia altogether, than for degrading it by making it subservient to the recruiting of the army.
Mr. Willoughby
would give his support to the measure, because at this eventful period, when the states of the continent were over-run, and when we were threatened with the same fate that had befallen other nations, vigorous measures were absolutely necessary. This measure he considered efficacious and from conversations which he had had with some militia officers, he was convinced, that if double the number proposed to be allowed to volunteer were necessary, they could be obtained readily. Here he could not but remark upon the neglect of the late ministers, who had deserted our brave allies, and lavished the force of the country by such expeditions as that to Egypt, which terminated in a disaster that tarnished the lustre of the British arms. Of the volunteers, a force so much decried by a right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Windham), whose talents he admired, but whose politics appeared to him to be too theoretical and speculative, he might truly say, that the spirit with which they had come forward had saved the country. He was of opinion that the
933
Lord Euston
spoke against the bill. He admitted that the army would gain by the operation of it in the first instance. But parliament was bound to look farther, and then he would ask what, would become of the ordinary recruiting? That source of supply for the army would be effectually cut off by the effect of this measure. The ballot, by raising bounties, would destroy the regular recruiting. It was remarkable too, that the plan of the noble lord departed from the precedents of volunteering from the militia into the line. The volunteering in 1799 had not been followed by a ballot. A similar volunteering from the militia had taken place in the course of the present war, and had not been succeeded by the ballot. This constituted an essential difference between the present and the former cases. Though he objected to the whole of the measure, he might be induced perhaps to withdraw his opposition to it, if one or two points were to be ceded to him. The first was, that no proposition should be made, under any circumstances, to the men who should volunteer, to enlist for a longer term than that sanctioned by the system adopted last session. Another was, that the men who should be raised by ballot to supply the place of those who volunteered into the army, should not, in any case be called on to volunteer into the line. If these points were ceded, he might be induced to vote for the bill.
Mr. Lockhart
most heartily approved of the measure, because, as the noble lord who proposed it had stated, it would not interfere with the regular permanent recruiting for the army. I was a temporary measure to meet a pressing exigency. This measure was not like that of the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Windham), in its infancy, but complete major at once. The soldiers it would give to the army, would be of that description emphatically designated by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke) on a former night,
sui generis.
934
935
Mr. Calcraft
could not concur in the sentiments expressed by the hon. gentlemen, who had for the first time addressed the house that night, (Messrs. Willoughby and Lockhart) though he was anxious to concur in any measure that might be deemed necessary for the security of the country, in the critical situation in which it was placed. Before he could agree to the proposition of the noble lord, he must first look at the situation of our national force; at the pretext for the noble lord's plan, and at the plan itself. When he found that the force already on foot was, if properly organized, arranged and regulated, sufficient to save the country, he was anxious to spare his countrymen that compulsion, which the noble lord considered necessary. If he was persuaded that the existing force was sufficient for that purpose, he was justified in opposing the noble lord's measure. Before he proceeded in his argument, he should beg leave to make one or two observations upon the volunteer force. He was fully sensible of he zeal, the spirita
936
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938
939
Mr. Cripps
so far as his observation had extended, though he allowed that was rather a limited criterion, had found that desertion had not decreased in consequence of the late measures of military arrangement. He thought some extraordinary exertion in the way of recruiting was required in the present crisis. With respect to any general diminution in the attendance of volunteer corps, he was not competent to speak; but in the corps that he commanded, consisting of 400 men, there had been no falling off. He thought it a great defect in the arrangement of the late plan, with respect to the militia, that the ballot was altogether stopped, and that the vacancies occasioned by the retreat of those who had served their terms, were not filled up. He was of opinion, that the inspecting field-officers, though in some instances of use, need not be so numerous as they now were.
Colonel Wood
said, it must be allowed, that the present crisis called for every possible exertion, in order to have not only ample means of defence at home, but also of powerful attack, if opportunity should offer. He agreed that our existing armed force was, in comparison with our population, beyond that of any other country. But when the despotic power of the present ruler of France had been unable to find recruits without resorting to conscription, he did not see why we should abstain from resorting to a measure of equal force for the defence of the freedom and happiness we enjoyed. The recruiting under the new system had been hitherto so successful, because it had no competition to struggle with; the militia ballot was totally suspended. In May it would revive, and when the five or six thousand men, who were then to retire, should come to be balloted for, the effect of the plan would be much less than it had been. It was not on measures of mere prospective success that the safety of the country could be allowed to rest. He trusted that the colonels of the militia regiments would universally promote the execution of this measure when it should be passed: for however it might be in general matter of commendable emulation in them, to vie with each other who should
940
Mr. Bastard
knew of no contest between the militia colonels and the line, but who should have the best discipline; and, if occasion should arise, the best fighting battalions. The object of this bill was to depress the militia, and to raise the glory of the line upon its ruins. He should therefore oppose the bill, looking upon the militia as those most interested in the preservation of the land, consequently those most likely to fight for it, and best entitled to its favour and confidence. With respect to the consistency which gentlemen were called upon to shew, he had never known any consistency during the 15 years that he had sat in parliament, except in uniformly substituting one plan for another, according as every new government wished to supersede the plans of its predecessors. He therefore hoped gentlemen would be now consistent, and that they would persevere in rejecting a measure so much to be deprecated. He hoped that parliament would consider the necessity of making other exertions also, without which it would be impossible to go on in this contest. The weight of taxes, already so intolerable, could not be well increased. He hoped that every acre that was productive, would be taxed without exemption. He thought also, that means might be found in the country, of providing a supply of timber for the navy, now purchased so dearly from foreign nations. He trusted that a committee would be appointed to enquire, and
941
Mr. Fuller
differed from the hon. gent. who had last spoken. He considered that the practice which prevailed of late years, of making the militia nearly the same as regular regiments, hurt considerably the recruiting for the regular army, by causing a competition. When the militia was on the original plan, raised for only 3 years, and serving principally in their own counties, then the balloted men often served, and acquired military habits, which induced them afterwards to enter into the regular army; but when that old practice was changed, and they were marched out of their counties, and kept on the footing of regular regiments, then the men who were balloted no longer served, but obtained substitutes, at large bounties, which injured materially the regular army, by the competition which it gave rise to.
Lord Binning
maintained the propriety of our having different descriptions of troops, particularly with a view to home defence. But as the power of making effective attack was among the most powerful means of defence, and as our regular army was the only offensive force that we had in addition to our navy, he thought an increase of the line most necessary in this momentous crisis. The noble lord took a comparative view of the effects of the measures of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) for recruiting the army, and the Additional Force Act, and contended that this latter would have been equally productive if allowed a fair trial. Considering the state of Europe, and of the British empire, menaced with all the rage of the conqueror; the state of Ireland too, for though he counted much upon the loyalty of the Catholics of Ireland, and was convinced that they would repel with indignation the seducing appeals of the bishop of Quimper, yet he could not help thinking that Ireland was vulnerable, acid therefore to be watched with peculiar care, and guarded with an ample for
942
Mr. Whitbread
began by saying that he was anxious to express his sentiments of the bill before it went into a committee, because he had not yet heard that made out which ought to have been proved in the first instance, namely the necessity of the case. He had heard nothing to convince him that such emergency as had been stated existed at present, and until he was convinced of that, he could not assent to the bill in its outset. And here he could not help making one observation, that in the whole course of those wars so protracted, when that house was so often and so solemnly told by Mr. Pitt, that not an hour was to be lost, that the wisdom of the country must at once and for ever resolve upon the best means of bringing forth its strength, and that after all those warnings, and consultations, and measures proposed, agreed to, and acted upon, that still we were now as we were at first; that from the year 1793 to 1807, nothing had yet been effectually done in the way of determining upon some satisfactory mode of national defence. This was extraordinary, but it was not unaccountable, for upon a review of all those different plans and schemes, it did appear that they were calculated to act only on great emergencies. They were provided against incidental events, and therefore were not of that permanent nature necessary to the progressive improvement of a wise and comprehensive system of military defence; therefore it was, that the plans of that statesman, as to the defence of the country, were not found to answer. The Additional Force Act, considered as a measure of security, entirely failed. And, now, what were they about to do? merely to provide, as it was said, against an emergency. But then, the present could not be said to be one of Mr. Pitt's emergencies. The French emperor was not now at Boulogne. Things were not yet brought to the mere cast of the die. The fate of the empire was not yet brought to the issue of a single battle; the country was not called on by any existing circumstances, to play the bad game of sacrificing the future to the present. As to the French emperor, he would here take leave to observe upon the idle and childish way in which many persons were pleased to indulge when speaking of that person; words did not win battles. It was by deeds, and deeds of energy, we were to maintain ourselves and oppose him; but what was the deed of energy that the country was now called upon to perform, and who were
943
944
945
946
947
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he thought the arguments of the hon. gent. who had just sat down most extraordinary, for he had admitted that the common enemy of this country had conquered the whole of the continent of Europe, and that he was
948
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950
Mr. Addington
said, that if the question now to be considered was an ordinary one, and if he did not concur with a gent. who had spoken last but one (Mr. Whitbread) in thinking that the decision of the house might prove of vital importance, and that perhaps even the preservation of our independence might depend on the measures now to be adopted, he should not have obtruded himself on the notice of the house; but in this crisis of unexampled difficulty and contingent dangers, which most seemed to admit, though differing materially as to the means of averting them, he hoped it would not be thought unbecoming in him to submit to the consideration of the house such observations as the most mature reflection had suggested to him.—In one point, and indeed in more than one, he cordially concurred with his right hon. friend opposite to him, (Mr. Yorke,) that one false step taken at this time, might prove irretrievable; that the interval between the present moment and the next meeting of parliament might be big with events, in which the national welfare might be deeply involved; and that the utmost
951
952
953
954
955
956
957
958
959
960
Lord Henry Petty
was glad that his right hon. friend who spoke last had been heard before him, though he was anxious to have addressed the house at the time he rose, in order to repel a charge brought by the right hon. gent. opposite, against the late ministers. He had said that they had abandoned the intention of doing any thing in favour of Ireland. They certainly had done no such thing, but had with anxiety reserved to themselves a power to make representations on this subject. What the right hon. gent. said was contradicted, even by the garbled documents which had been surreptitiously published. With regard to the present measure, he was anxious to support any thing which could have the effect of a permanent addition to our force. The consideration then was, whether this was a measure calculated for that purpose. His hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread) had enteredupon the consideration of the amount of our force compared with our population, and had certainly taken the just view of the subject. He had included in his calculation some who were not properly part of our military force. But, however, without these, our force, compared with our population, was as great, if not greater, than that of any other country. We had about 400,000 men in our army, and having besides 30,000 foreigners; we had 150,000 in the regular army, 20,000 artillery-men, between 70, and 80,000 militia, and 130,000 in the navy. These, with from 370 to 380,000 volunteers, formed nearly 2–17ths of our population capable of bearing arms. In one of the most military monarchies of Europe, where there was little commerce and few manufactures, he meant Prussia, the proportion of those actually armed, out of those capable of bearing arms, had been 2–17ths. For any permanent force, more
961
962
l
l.
l.
l.
963
964
Lord Henniker
expressed his utmost confidence in the alacrity of the militia to render all possible service to their country; and he was sure that that constitutional force would conform with the utmost cheerfulness to such arrangements as the government might think proper to adopt for strengthening the national arm, and affording due measures of defence and security to the empire.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
felt that the present was a question of the utmost moment; and was therefore not surprized at the various opinions which had been offered in respect to the best mode of accomplishing the great purpose which was the object of the bill. Gentlemen on both sides agreed, that the present moment was one of considerable difficulty, and required, of course, more than ordinary exertion to meet the exigencies of the occasion; they acknowledged that the energy and resources of the country, should be brought forth as speedily and effectually as possible. The only difference then was, as to the mode of accomplishing the great object. For his part, he was willing to confess, that he considered the militia force as of a most efficient description; and while it approached the nearest to the regular army, was the most constitutional force we possessed. One great reason which made the transfer of the militia into the line desirable was, that whenever a peace should be concluded, the militia must be disbanded. He would ask gentlemen, whether, under the present circumstances of Europe, such a peace would reasonably be looked for, as would enable the country to dispense with such a large portion of its military establishment, as the militia constituted? He thought the house must agree with him, that we could not spare such a number of men from our means of defence; and it must be obvious to all, that there was no other way of obviating the difficulty, and preserving such a force to the country, than by permitting it in time of war to volunteer into the line. This was an effectual
965
Mr. Windham
entered at large upon the comparative merits of the bill now before the house, the plan of the present ministers, of which this was a part; and that military system which he had brought forward, and which parliament had adopted last year. The leading objection which he had to the present measure, and to the whole system of which it formed a part, was, that it was only of a temporary nature, and therefore inapplicable to the present condition of this country, which required a military system of a permanent nature. For want of attending to this distinction, we had fallen into many, and he was apprehensive we should fall into still more errors, and he feared some of them might prove fatal unless we adopted a permanent system: nothing else would serve us; for the evil against which we were to provide was of a permanent nature. The militia officers had been made the mere vehicle for recruiting; and now, when the very moment had arrived at which they expected to be called into actual service, in order to display that discipline and valour which they had been the means of fostering and exciting, their troops were to be taken from them and drafted into the regular army. Was not this more degrading to the militia than any thing which had been done to the volunteers, as alleged by the hon. gent. opposite? The right hon. gent. defended at considerable length his own training act and recruiting system; which he maintained, from the returns on the table, had answered every purpose, for which they were intended. If his system had been allowed to take its own course, we should have avoided the ruinous consequences to our militia now resorted to, of filling up the standing army front that source. He denied that the late administration had put an end to the Additional Force act; the fact was, it had put an end to itself. The question now was, shall we break up a solid system for the sake of gaining a temporary advantage?—Where was the emergency which rendered such an injurious measure necessary?—A word or two now as to the volunteers. There was no system which owed its existence to zeal alone, that could
966
Mr. Bathurst
thought that there was no ground for supposing that the present measure would completely counteract the operation of the plan of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham); occasions would frequently occur in which it would be necessary to make an exertion for procuring a considerable accession of force; but such emergencies could only produce a temporary obstruction to the measure, and would
967
Lord Castlereagh
could not forbear making a few observations even at that late hour of the night. He lamented to meet with such opposition from different quarters, and on such different grounds. Some did not think the emergency so urgent as others, and therefore were for adopting no measure at all. Some were for making greater, others less drafts from the militia; while others again deprecated the touching it altogether. The militia was allowed to be in a higher state of perfection, and to be more complete in officers, than at any former period for these 14 years. Why, then, did it not furnish more facilities than at any former moment towards the object which it was now so necessary to attend to and to accomplish? Our military force was now more scattered abroad than at any former period: it was therefore more necessary to feed and compact that force than before. He did not flatter himself with a nearer prospect of peace than the gentlemen on the other side: but this he felt, that our military system should be adapted to both situations, and partake of either prospect. When so calculated, it might be framed and kept up at a smaller expence. As to the right hon. gent. who spoke last but one, he seemed to lose sight altogether of the dangers which he formerly dreaded from France. His apprehensions on that score seemed wholly to have vanished, and all his faculties seemed now to be absorbed in the admiration of his own military plan, which he seemed to think had succeeded beyond his most sanguine dreams. Still, however, all that happy result was yet to come. We were to look for it at the distance of two years; and in the interim, it seems, were to expect that Bonaparte would become grey, and be no longer anxious for any thing but peace; and then we should be able to defend the country without any measure like that he
968
Dr. Laurence
expressed his surprise, that, after his majesty's ministers had deprecated all personal allusions, the noble lord should have made charges of a nature similar to that with which he concluded his speech, and should have taken the opportunity of making so uncandid an attack, when all the members of the late administration had spoken in the debate. Whatever was to be regretted in the distribution of the public force by the late government, he contended was the necessary result of the impolitic measures of their predecessors. He also remarked, that before they could be justly censured for any of their measures, they ought to be permitted to disclose the general plan, of which those measures were perhaps only parts. He did not pretend to have a knowledge of what
969
Mr. Windham
stated, that the late ministers had left to their successors a much greater number of transports than had been received from them. If the noble lord thought the late ministers had failed to do their duty in any particular, he wished him to bring the matter before the house, when they might have an opportunity of vindicating their conduct.—The question was then called for, when a division took place,
For the second reading of the bill
187
Against it
90
Majority
97
[IRISH INSURRECTION BILL.]
Upon the gallery being re-opened, we found
Mr. Brand
opposing the Irish Insurrection bill, most particularly on the ground that he could not think it advisable to confide to the hands of any man, however respectable, the power of overturning the decision of a jury.
Mr. Whitbread
proposed to restore the clause inflicting a penalty on magistrates who shall omit to give a return of those who act under them in cases where any subject may think himself injured, either in person, property, or family. This was not admissible, consistent with the forms of the house, unless an engrossed clause were ready for that purpose.
Mr. W. Smith
proposed that in consequence of the lateness of the hour (nearly half-past four o'clock), the further proceeding on the 3d reading should be postponed till to-morrow. Upon this, a division took place; we could not learn the numbers, but the motion was lost by a considerable majority.—By this time the clause was engrossed; upon the question, that it stand part of the bill, there was another division nearly the same as on the last question.
Sir, J. Newport
then moved the alteration of the duration of the bill from two years to one; upon this a third division took place: For the motion 28; against it 112. A long debate next ensued on the question that the bill do now pass.
Mr. J. W. Ward
expressed strong doubts as
970
Lord Milton
was decidedly against the bill, and was determined to oppose the motion for passing it.
Mr. Sheridan
said, he could not agree to the bill in any shape; but most particularly the amendments, which would make it in some degree palatable, were rejected. If, said he, the time of reading the bill a third time had afforded me the best possible opportunity of delivering my sentiments on it at such length as I chose, I should not have profited by the advantage. I certainly did wish, and mean, to have selected the fittest occasion for giving fully my reasons for the abhorrence I feel for its principle, and the contempt I entertain for its provisions; but circumstances have since embarrassed my judgment, and I will state them shortly and sincerely. When I find the principle of the bill admitted on the plea of necessity by all those to whose judgement and information I am bound to pay the utmost deference, when I find I cannot oppose their acquiescence without arraying my knowledge of the fact of the real situation and temper of Ireland against their superior means of information, I feel the presumption and hazard of taking upon myself the responsibility of an earnest endeavour to persuade the house to reject a measure which I am almost single in regarding as the worst, the foulest, and the foolishest measure that ever solicited the sanction of parliament; but still more am I influenced by observing in my attendance on the committee, where I avow to have shunned taking any part, washing my hands, and absolving my conscience from meddling with, or tampering in any attempt to mend that which is so hateful in principle that it is perhaps best that it should carry with it all its unequal proportion of deformity. I say, I cannot but have been induced to forego my first determination, by observing that so many efforts at modifica-
971
Mr. Grattan
re-stated, that he had been informed that there were held in Ireland treasonable meetings, for the purpose of organizing a force to assist the French. The bill was to put down the French interest in Ireland, not to oppress the Irish nation. He did not mean to accuse his countrymen of treason or disaffection; but he was certain, that there was a French party in Ireland; it was against them, and not against Irishmen, that the operation of the bill was directed; and sooner than run a risk of losing the constitution altogether, he would take upon himself his full share, in common with his majesty's ministers, of the responsibility which would attach to the measure.—The house then divided on the motion that the bill do now pass. The numbers were, Ayes 106; Noes 8; Majority 98. Adjourned at half-past 6 on Tuesday morning.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, July 28.
[MINUTES.] Lord Hawkesbury
brought down a Message from the King, announcing that his majesty had entered into subsidiary engagements with the king of Sweden; that his majesty's minister at the court of Prussia had advanced 100,000
l
l
972
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, July 28.
[MINUTES.] Mr. alderman Shaw
offered a petition from W. Spurrier, who had been ordered to attend the house, to answer as to the detention of the Poole writ. The petition went to excuse the conduct of the petitioner, who prayed the indulgence of the house. The Speaker suggested, that it was informal to receive a petition from an individual ordered to attend in his person. The individual would have an opportunity to offer his excuse in the course of his examination at the bar.—A new writ was ordered for the county of Kinross, in the room of Mr. Adam, who, having been elected for Kincardineshire also, had made his election to serve for the latter.—Mr. secretary Canning presented at the bar a copy of the treaty of amity, enterred into between his majesty and the king of Prussia. The right hon. secretary stated that this treaty had been framed at Memel on the 28th of January; but the ratification of the king of Prussia had not arrived for many months after, and the events that had since occurred had entirely superseded the provisions agreed upon.
[KING'S MESSAGE RELATIVE TO ENGAGEMENTS WITH SWEDEN, &c.] Mr. Secretary Canning
brought up a message from the king, which was read from the chair as follows: "G. R. His majesty thinks it proper to acquaint the house of commons, that he has entered into certain subsidiary engagements with the king of Sweden, copies of which, as soon as the ratifications shall have been exchanged, his majesty will direct to be
973
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Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that in moving that his majesty's most gracious message be referred to the committee of supply, it might perhaps be agreeable to the gentlemen on the opposite side of the house, that he should shortly state the nature of the treaties mentioned in the message. The one was a subsidiary treaty with the king of Sweden, by which we had agreed to pay for the furnishing a further contingent of men for the defence of Swedish Pomerania and of Stralsund. The number before employed for those purposes, for which this country paid, was 14,000 men, and it was proposed to make an addition of 4,000, which were to be paid for at the same rate as the others were. This was not, however, the contingent to which he had alluded on a former day. It would be recollected that a question had been put to him by an hon. gent. some time ago relative to treaties with the northern powers, and he had then mentioned that there were contingencies which were not then finally settled, which prevented the necessary communications on that subject being made. Those contingencies were certain subsidiary treaties which his majesty's ministers had entered upon with the king of Prussia, and which the unfortunate circumstances that had put an end to the war on the continent, had prevented from being brought to a conclusion. Had they taken place, the 100,000
l
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974
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING A VOTE OF CREDIT.] The Chancellor of the Exchequer
brought up another message from the king, which was read from the chair as follows: "G. R. His majesty, relying on the uniform loyalty and zeal of his faithful commons, and considering that it may be of the utmost importance at this arduous crisis, to provide for such emergencies as may arise, recommends it to this house, to make provision for enabling his majesty to take all such measures as the exigencies of affairs may require, in order to counteract and defeat the intentions and plans of his enemies, and to provide for the safety of his majesty's dominions, and to maintain the honour of his crown."—This message was also referred to the committee of supply.
[COMPLAINT RESPECTING THE POOLE WRIT.]
On the motion of Mr. Jeffery, the house went into the further consideration of the Complaint of the delay in the delivery of the Poole writ.
Mr. Jonathan Brundrett
was called in, and on examination stated, that he received the writ on the morning of the 30th of April, and delivered it to Mr. James Weston, at two o'clock on the same day in Fen-church-street, in the presence of an old gentleman, who, he afterwards found, was Mr. Spurrier. He recognized, Mr. Spurrier when he went to Poole to ascertain the delivery of the writ. He arrived in Poole on Monday, the 18th of May, and saw Mr. Spurrier, who told him the writ had been delivered. He was satisfied on hearing that it was delivered, relying on Mr. Spurrier's veracity.
Mr. William
Spurrier was then called in. Being very deaf, the clerk was ordered to stand by him and repeat the questions that were put. Being desired by the Speaker to address his answers to him, he said that he could not see him [a laugh].—On examination stated he had received the writ on the 30th of April last. He delivered the writ on the 17th of May, where he was satisfied the sheriff received it. His ignorance was the sole cause of his holding over the writ so long. No person at Poole knew of his having the writ. The sheriff of Poole is his relation, his wife's brother. He knew
975
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it had been universally admitted, that some remedy was necessary in the present practice of issuing writs. A remedy was to be proposed by an hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Barham). Every gentleman would lend his aid to render this remedy more perfect, and when it should have received the concurrence of the other branches of the legislature, he hoped it would be effectual. With respect to the present
976
The Speaker
suggested that the first proceeding ought to be a resolution, that Mr. William Spurrier, in unduly detaining the writ for the last election for members to serve in parliament for the county of the town of Poole for 17 days, had been guilty of a breach of the privileges of that house. The question being put on this resolution,
Lord H. Petty
felt it was quite impossible to refuse his assent to the resolution, but from the universality of similar practices, of which some instances little short of that now before the house had been communicated to him very recently, he thought the individual now under the animadversion of the house ought to be discharged as soon after his committal as possible. He urged the propriety of adopting a general remedy for the abuse; such a remedy was essential to the honour and character of the house, in preference to severity in a particular instance.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, an hon. gent. on the other side had proposed to introduce a general remedial measure, which he was sure every gentleman would be ready to support. He intended to move, that Mr. Spurrier be committed to the custody of the serjeant at arms; and though it was not parliamentary to speak of an understanding to that effect, he was sure, that as soon as a proper submission should be made, the house would give the relief required.
Mr. Barham
urged the propriety of a general remedy, and, with a view to obtain, some information calculated to promote that object, proposed to call in and examine, the messenger of the great seal as to the general proceedings about the issue of writs.
Mr. Rose
objected to the examination the messenger of the great seal, who could speak to nothing beyond the practice of his office. The messenger of the great seal, was particularly instructed to take no fees but those that custom had established (perhaps without right); five guineas for a writ for a borough, and twice as much for
977
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
took occasion to state, that the committal of Mr. Brundrett to Newgate on a former night, was grounded on his unqualified refusal to answer questions. This was an offence, without the immediate punishment and correction of which, the house could not proceed in any of the investigations and enquiries essential to its constitution. The nature of the case enquired into, depended upon the facts that should be disclosed and discovered, and admitted of quite a different course of proceeding.
Mr. Jeffery
stated, that the messenger of the great seal, and the other persons ordered to attend at the bar, were not at all implicated in the criminal part of the transaction. He therefore moved, that the order for their attendance be discharged.
Mr. Barham
then moved, that the deputy messenger of the crown be called to the bar. This was opposed by sir John Sinclair, and the gallery was cleared for a division, but, after some discussion, the motion was withdrawn.
[MILITIA TRANSFER BILL.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, on the Militia Transfer bill,
Lord Milton
rose. The emergency to call for a measure so oppressive as this, was not, he said, made out. If the French fleets had been victorious, then indeed there might have been a ground for some strong compulsory measure. The militia was the constitutional force of the country, and ought not to thus tampered with and degraded, especially when the object at present was not to procure a force for foreign service, but for the defence of the country. It Was impossible now to look for conquests on the continent, or to expect to stop the progress of Bonaparte. At the first establishment of the militia the service was in a great measure of a personal nature. Now, however, it was merely a tax on the country, and a tax which, by the operation of the ballot, Would be most partially and most unjustly levied. It was levied entirely on the landed property, and not on the whole,
978
979
Sir Thomas Turton
declared that he would rather wish to augment than diminish the militia. But he had strong objections to the system of ballot, on account of the malignity with which it operated. The ballot might fall upon a man of no property, or it might fall upon him (sir T. Turton). As to the chances, they were on an equality. But for 20 guineas he could procure a substitute, and this was nothing to him; but it might he every thing to the other, and therefore it was that the tax was grossly unequal. He thought the late ministers deserving of great praise for having suspended the ballot, and he really wished that some means might be found, by which the expence of this measure should be more equalised.—Indeed, he entirely approved of what the late ministers had done with regard to the continent, with one exception and that was, that they had not promptly assisted our allies alter the battle of Eylau, for then there appeared a prospect of stopping the career of the French, when they had received this check from the Russians. If he had had any influence over the councils of his majesty, he certainly would have advised that a strong force should have been sent to the continent on that occasion. He had always disapproved to sending expeditions to the continent to save Europe; for if Europe was not able to save itself, it was impossible that it could be done by Great Britain. We, therefore ought to reserve our forces instead of sending them on these foolish expeditions. But now, whether we should be at peace or not, we must always be armed, perhaps for a century. Since we must then be a armed, in God's name, let us have the force as constitutional as we can. He would cheerfully consent, however, to give ministers the force they wanted for the line, if they thought it useful for harassing the enemy, provided it could be done without the evils arising from the inequality of the ballot. The principle of the army of reserve, however, which had been so much insisted upon by those who themselves formed a sort of political reserve in that house,
980
Colonel Wood
had hoped, that in the present situation of the country, all party considerations would have been laid aside; and expressed his astonishment at the sentiments that had been promulgated on this subject. With great reluctance he gave his consent to the deterioration of that most constitutional force, the militia; but when he reflected on the present state of Europe, it was impossible for him to withhold it. He thought, that the plan of his noble friend was the only one that could give the desireable force. A right hon. gent. had last night said, that we had nothing to apprehend, because Bonaparte and his army were at such a distance; but in six months they might be on the opposite shores. He then entered into the best mode of defence in case of invasion, end recommended strongly the erection of Martello towers, and the fortifications of our arsenals and dockyards, which were now unable to resist a, siege of a fortnight or three weeks. He should give the present question his decided support.
Mr. Davits Giddy
although he could not approve, in every point, of the plan of the late right hon. secretary of state for the war department, yet thought that, if suffered to proceed, it would be very productive, and he regretted that the noble lord's plan would interfere with it. Still, however, it appeared that some sort of compulsion was necessary to provide a large military force, but he did not altogether see the utility of the volunteering from the militia, and expressed his preference of a ballot directly for the army. As a majority of the house, however, had determined in favour of the noble lord's plan, he should cheerfully acquiesce in that determination.
981
Sir G. Warrender
repeated his former arguments on this subject, and contended that the disposable force now existing was amply sufficient. His grand objection to the noble lord's plan was, that it applied a temporary remedy to a permanent evil, while the plan of his right hon. friend opposed a permanent remedy to a permanent evil. If a proper object for expeditions presented itself, he was far from disapproving of them, provided they were properly conducted. When the French were driven out of Italy, and an expedition was sent to the Helder, which at first promised to be successful, he thought that a good ground existed for the volunteering of the militia into the line at that time. But now there was no opportunity for any great expedition, and therefore he thought this measure of very little use, while it occasioned a great deal of mischief. But after the decision already come to, he could not expect to succeed in any opposition he might now give to it. It ought to be considered however, that the regiments were far removed from their respective counties, and that a great deal of difficulty would attend the collecting of the recruits. If the measure should pass into a law, he should undoubtedly do his endeavour to give it effect. Notwithstanding, however, the partiality he felt for the gentlemen on his side (the opposition side)#x2014;a partiality of which he certainly had no reason to be ashamed—he assured the gentlemen on the other side, that he would have opposed this measure though it had come from those whom he thought much better entitled to his confidence.
Mr. Babington
was of opinion that our regular force ought to be much augmented; and though he approved of this measure so far as it went, yet he thought that the addition of 36,000 men was much too small. It was not enough to have a force large enough to meet the enemy at the onset. We ought to have a reserve in case we lost one or two battles. He was surprized that so little stress had been laid upon the training of the population of the country; as the population of our enemy was military, it was necessary that ours should be military also. The actual enforcement of some measure for training the people, would have the effect of bringing many recruits into the line. This had happened in the case of the Army of Reserve act, for at that time many had entered that service from the idea that the
982
Lord Cochrane
thought the unequal operation of the ballot the most serious objection to the plan of the noble lord. At the same time, he entirely approved of permitting the militia to volunteer into the line: the present emergency called for a large disposable force, and he thought the best way of getting that force was the one proposed.
Colonel Bagwell
did not think the numerical force of the line would be so much increased as seemed to be anticipated.
Mr. Windham rose
not for the purpose of going at length into the consideration of the bill, but because some very important points relating to this subject had been mistated. The gentlemen on the other side seemed to confine their attention to one or two points only, of the measures which he had brought forward; but there were others, such as the Training act, which they had abstained from speaking of altogether. If the noble lord (Castlereagh) only found fault with some particular points of his bill, he would allow that, like all other bills of a general nature, it was capable of improvement, but he would not allow that there was more to be corrected or supplied than in other bills of this nature. He was ready to join the noble lord, or any other gentleman, in correcting whatever part of his bill might require correction. When he had brought forward the Training act, it was his opinion that it would constitute a great reservoir to feed and supply the regular army. He could not conceive what title the plan of the noble lord had to be called a grand measure, even to meet an emergency. What was it more than the difference between 36,000 men raised for the militia, and the number which the former plan would have raised? He thought that it had very little claim indeed to the character of a grand measure. He did not, however, wish to press that consideration farther at present, as there would be another opportunity of discussing the merits of the bill. Nor was it his wish now to answer at any length the objection which had been thrown out against the conduct of the late administration in the remission of fines to the different parishes. He should barely state, that the question on that point was, whether or not those fines could be levied without injus-
983
General Tarleton
said that the measures of the right hon. gent. had certainly contributed very much to dispirit the volunteers, as he himself had witnessed in the different districts with which he was best acquainted. He could not agree with the opinion of those who stated that the inspecting field-officers were of no use, and that their duty could be sufficiently discharged by the general officers of the district. The district which he commanded, comprised seven English counties, and 3 Welch ones, and 170 volunteer corps: it would be absolutely impossible that one general of a district should superintend so many corps who were widely dispersed over his district. He was therefore very glad that such power Was lodged in the inspecting field-officers. He considered that the improving the nature of the volunteer force would supersede the necessity of the Training act, and many other oppressive measures to which the people must otherwise be subject. He thought most highly of the militia force, and had a much better opinion of them than of the second battalions. He considered that the militia regiments possessed in a high degree the health and stamina of the country; and if the English and Irish militia would readily interchange their services he considered that there would be no occasion for the present measure. It was merely because he did not find the superior officers of the militia
984
Mr. Shaw Lofevre
observed, that the county of Leicester, to which an hon. gent. (Mr. Babington) belonged, who had taken a part in this debate, had employed means contrary to law to raise men by crimps and excessive bounties. Knowing, as he did, the hardships imposed upon individuals by the different mode of applying the ballot, he still considered, that the army of reserve plan was an easier and cheaper means of raising men, than the plan proposed by the noble lord. He expressed doubt whether the supplemented militia could be raised to the full extent proposed by the measure, whilst there was a certain proportion of the former supplemental militia at serving in the militia.
Lord Castlereagh
replied, that the objection was a legal, not a political one, but declared it to be his opinion, that alter the supplemental militia had been reduced or incorporated with the original militia, it was perfectly competent to his majesty and the legislature to call out the amount of supplemental militia proposed.
Lord Castlereagh rose
to propose a clause which should have for its object, to allow the militia an option either to enter into the army for the term of 7 years, or for life. He by no means conceived that the plan of the right hon. gent. (Mr Windham) held out those superior inducements which gentlemen on the other side appeared to imagine. He could state one circumstance that strongly inclined him to think that it did not. When it was judged necessary to encourage men to volunteer from the militia for the expedition to Holland, the terms
985
Mr. W. Smith
had one general objection against offering the option proposed in the clause, because it would materially interfere with the system now in existence. The necessity of bringing up such a clause a strong argument against the measure of the noble lord.
The Secretary at War
in confirmation of the argument of his noble friend, sated that the force that would be raised within the present year by his measure, and by the ordinary recruiting, would amount to 43,000 men; and if so large a proportion of our military force were to be entitled to their discharge at the end of seven years, it might be productive of much mischief.
Mr. Littleton
should give a decided negative to this clause, thus surreptitiously introduced into the bill without notice, to subvert the system at present in force. Why had the clause not been produced at first on the face of the bill?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
to correct the mistake of the hon. gent., reminded the committee, that his noble friend had, in the first instance, stated his intention to bring forward this clause in the committee. The reason why they had not introduced the clause on the face of the bill was, that his noble friend wished to take the sense of the house on the general principle of his measure on the second reading of the bill, without endangering its adoption, if there
986
Lord G. Cavendish
argued against the clause, and contended, that it would be nugatory, because for the same bounty any man must prefer the limited to the unlimited period of service.
Mr. Babington
felt rather jealous of any measure that went to disturb that which had already been laid down for limited service, and from which it was most natural to expect the most beneficial result.—A long conversation then took place on the merits of the clause, between lords Castlereagh and Milton, general Phipps, Mr. T. Jones, Mr. Ward, general Tarleton, Mr. Giddy, the Secretary at War, and Mr. Lockhart. Afterwards a division took place: For the Clause, 73; Against it, 10; Majority, 63. The house being resumed, Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report, which was ordered to be received to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, July 29
[KING'S MESSAGES RELATING TO SWEDEN AND PRUSSIA.] Lord Hawkesbury
moved the order of the day, for taking into consideration the gracious communications which he had yesterday the honour of delivering to the house. In moving an address of thanks to his majesty for these communications, he only followed in form the usual proceeding of the house; and as to the object and matter of the first of them, he did not anticipate any material objection. It simply announced, that a treaty
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Lord Holland
would not object to the address; but, at the same time, he could not help observing, that he was at a loss to conceive the grounds upon which ministers proceeded in making this second treaty, if they saw that his Swedish majesty was unable to carry the first into execution. No doubt his Swedish majesty would have done every thing in his power to fulfil his engagement.
The Earl of Lauderdale
felt very anxious to be informed, if the papers upon the table contained every thing which his majesty's ministers had done towards procuring continental co-operation, and more intimately cementing our continental connections and alliances. If they had done no more, how could they justify the language which they put into his majesty's speech, at the close of the last session? A pompous paragraph was there introduced, which held forth to the country the assurance, that ministers had been employed in drawing closer the ties that connected us with our allies, and in preparing the means of co-operation and concert, by which alone a rational hope could be entertained of resisting the ambition of the enemy, and of finally procuring a solid and safe peace. Surely, what appeared from the papers now upon the table, could contribute little or
988
Lord Hawkesbury
thanked the noble lord for having afforded him this opportunity of explanation. The passage in the speech to which the noble lord had alluded promised no more than his majesty's ministers had been prepared to perform. Their propositions to the continental powers were not confined to what appeared in the papers now before their lordships, but embraced offers of much greater magnitude in case of further and more extensive co-operation. But they still kept pace with the efforts, which those powers were likely to make, and with the degree of effect with which it was probable they might be attended. Unfortunately, however, the hopes of this more effectual and successful co-operation were now at an end; and no more pecuniary advances had been made to our allies than those referred to in his majesty's message.
Lord Holland
here took occasion to inveigh against the principle of holding out to foreign powers the temptation of subsidies, in order to excite them to take a part in the war. He himself had witnessed the mischievous effects of that principle, and it was one which he should ever reprobate and resist, as influencing the conduct of this country, with respect to its continental connections. The attempt prematurely to plunge other powers into hostilities had made the most unfavourable impression abroad, Such allurements on our part seemed to make the subjects of the sovereigns in alliance with us imagine that their governments bartered their blood for British gold, and so far that idea went to destroy the moral energy by which they might wield the physical strength which we were so ready to purchase from them. He should ever set his face therefore against the throwing out of such enticements, and he had seriously to regret that we had too long and too often acted upon that principle.
Lord Mulgrave
was astonished to hear the noble lord indulge in such observations, and impute to his majesty's government motives and views which had never guided their conduct. Where was the proof that
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[IRISH INSURRECTION BILL.] Lord Hawkesbury
moved the order of the day for the second reading of this bill. He felt it to be a measure of great importance, and it was natural to expect he should adduce some reasons for its adoption. Measure of a similar nature had often been resorted to by the parliament of Ireland, the necessity of which had grown out of the French revolution, and the principles which the authors of it had attempted to disseminate throughout every country. Associations had at different times been entered into in that part of the empire, in which oaths wet administered, and engagements entered in to, for the worst of purposes. To counteract these practices, a bill of the nature of the present was first introduced. If such practices were dangerous then, how much more so must they be in the present state of Europe and of the empire, and when fate of Ireland was more closely linked than ever with the fate of this country; and Of the continent? He could not, under such circumstances, foresee that any material objections would be made to the bill not only because it was brought forward a milder shape than that in which the parliament of Ireland had passed it, but be-
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Lord Holland rose
not to oppose the principle of the bill, or perhaps even its provisions, though there were some of them which he wished to see amended, but to give it an assent, which, however, was wrung from him with sorrow, and only by he gripe of an extreme and lamentable necessity. He felt it to be a necessity not only painful to his feelings, but degrading to his character as a member of that house. How long was the imperial parliament to continue to legislate for Ireland in the spirit of this measure, that is, in defiance of the best principles of the constitution, in the blessings of which we cannot allow that unfortunate country to participate? Were these the promises—are these the fruits of the union? But, if he was compelled to submit to the humiliation and the hardship of assenting to such a measure, the causes at least should be enquired into, which produced the dire necessity upon which alone it was attempted to be justified. These causes chiefly appeared to be, the disabilities that hung upon the Catholics in that distracted country, the pressure of the tithes, and the efforts that were systematically made to keep alive religious animosities between the Catholics and the Protestants in Ireland. On each of these causes, the noble lord descanted. He was well acquainted with the character of Irishmen, and no character did he ever see more conspicuously marked by benevolence, generosity, and courage: what, then, was it that created in that country those inextinguishable discontents which called so often for the enactment of measures like the present? It must be something of a nature the most imperious, when it urged men to forego the blessings of civilized society itself, and the advantages of a constitution such as this country boasted of and was blessed with. That was the source of the evil which we were bound to explore; and,if it was duly explored, the remedy must soon be discovered. The fact was, the great majority of the people of Ireland were deprived of the full enjoyment of the constitution, and they felt themselves injured
991
The Earl of Limerick
was sorry to hear the language and the sentiments that fell from the noble lord, for they could be productive of no good. Why eternally introduce the claims of the Catholics? why insinuate that they had reason not to love the constitution, and that at a moment when they enjoyed almost every thing the constitution could bestow? If the noble lord wised to trace the cause of the discontents in Ireland, he perhaps might find them in
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The Duke of Bedford
felt himself called upon to answer so serious a charge as that which the noble earl had made against him, and which amounted to nothing less than that the blood of the unfortunate people who lost their lives in consequence of the late disturbances in Ireland must rest upon his head, In reply to this, he begged leave to state, that shortly after his arrival in Ireland, he received an application, not from the county of Mayo, but from the magistrates of the county of Sligo, to proclaim martial law there; but after every attention he could give to the subject, and after taking the best counsel he could procure, he thought so severe measure unnecessary, and therefore resisted the application. He was satisfied in his own conscience, that his intentions were good. He had acted according to the best of his judgment, and he left it to the country to decide upon his conduct.
The Earl of Limerick
in explanation, observed, that he had never Said that the blood of the people who had suffered was on the head of the noble Juke. He had only stated his opinion, that if this law had been applied on the first appearance of the disturbances, the extension of the insurrection would have been prevented.
Lord Kingston
contended, that the magistrates in the county of Sligo were the real promoters of the disturbances. The
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The Earl of Hardwicke
was inimical to the practice of proclaiming districts where it could possibly be avoided. With respect to the bill, its necessity had been so forcibly Urged to him by persons possessing a competent knowledge of the state of Ireland, that he could not object to it.
Lord Carleton
deprecated the tendency of that line of argument which the noble lord on the opposite bench (lord Holland) had thought proper to pursue, because he, thought that argument calculated to justify the disturbances which had so long agitated Ireland. With regard to the statements of the noble lords who had lately presided over the government of Ireland, he could not admit that they should operate against this bill. For although those noble lords, in the circumstances which arose during their respective administrations, saw no necessity for acting on the law which this bill proposed to re-enact, it did not therefore follow that the bill was unnecessary.
The Earl of Hardwicke
in explanation, stated, that this bill was much more obnoxious to him than the existing law, because by this bill the responsibility of those who were to execute the law was in a great measure done away in consequence of the introduction of new clauses.
The Earl of Selkirk
declared, that it was with the utmost reluctance he could give his assent to any such measure as that before the house; but being convinced of its necessity, he could not refuse to vote for the bill. He was convinced of the importance of conciliatory measures in Ireland, and he fully concurred in the opinion that nothing was more rare, than that a general spirit of disaffection should prevail in any country, except through the faults of the government. In Ireland, particularly, it was evident that the prevailing disaffection had proceeded from a long train of mismanagement: but this had been so long continued, and effects had become so inveterate, that it was impossible to remove the evil at once. Conciliatory measures might do much with the help of time, but their effect could only be gradual and pro-
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996
[AMERICAN INDEMNITY BILL]
The following is a copy of the Preamble moved by lord Holland on the report of the American Indemnity bill. (see page 806.) "Whereas, by an act of parliament made in the 12th year of his late majesty king Charles II, intitled "An act for the encouraging and increasing of trade and navigation;" It is, among other things, enacted, "That no goods or commodities, whatsoever, of the growth, produce, or manufacture of Asia, Africa, or America, or any part thereof, be imported into England, Ireland, or Wales, Islands of Guernsey and Jersey, or town of Berwick upon Tweed, in any other ship or ships, vessel or vessels whatsoever, but in such as do truly and without fraud belong only to the people of England or to Ireland, dominion of Wales, or town of Berwick upon Tweed, or of the lands, islands, plantations, or territories, in Asia, Africa, or America, to his majesty belonging, as the proprietors and right owners thereof."—And whereas by an act of parliament made in the l2th year of his late majesty king Charles II. intitled, "A subsidy granted to the king, of Tonnage and Poundage, and other sums of money payable upon merchandize exported and imported," it is declared, that "No rates can be
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[PROTESTS AGAINST THE AMERICAN INDEMNITY BILL.]
The following Protests were entered against the American Indemnity bill:
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VASSALL HOLLAND."
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, July 29.
[SIERRA LEONE COMPANY'S BILL.]
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. Dent rose
and observed, that the grants made by parliament to the company had been claimed for the purpose of introducing civilization into Africa. The company, however, had failed in their projects The sums granted them amounted in all to about 109,000
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Mr. Wilberforce
said, that when gentlemen spoke of the sums of money that had been voted to the Sierra Leone company, they should consider that a great proportion of those sums were paid to support those men whom government must otherwise have been at the expense of supporting. The first class of those men were the blacks, who had served with the British army in the contest with America, and after that contest had been sent into Nova Scotia. Having sent a memorial to the government, complaining of the coldness of the climate to which they were sent, the government applied to the Sierra Leone company, to admit them into a colony much more congenial to their constitutions than the climate of Nova Scotia was. The company then accepted, in the first place, of nearly 1000 Nova-Scotia blacks, which government must, otherwise, have been at the expence of maintaining. Afterwards, when it became an object of policy to expel the Maroons from the island of Jamaica, government again applied to the company to take them, and they most unwillingly accepted of 5 or 6 hundred of these men. Those 1500 men, who otherwise would have been chargeable to the government, had been maintained by the company for a considerable number of years; and he hoped that it would be taken into the account, when the aids were mentioned which the company had received from government. The reason of the failure of the company in its principal objects was the continuance of the slave trade, which they had on the best ground calculated would have been abolished many years ago. Still, however, in the end, he trusted this colony would produce the happiest effects in the civilization of mankind. Like all other colonies, it had great difficulties to encounter in its outset; but he trusted it had taken deep root, and would be the means of civilizing a considerable portion of Africa. These higher objects ought not to be lost sight of Those who thought most highly of the West-India colonies ought to be the best friends of this settlement, for they must be convinced that this country owed a great debt to Africa.
Mr. Eden
allowed that the object of the company had in a great measure failed;
1003
Mr. Huskisson
said, that if his hon. friend would consider the real circumstances of the case, he must be convinced, that if the projects of the company for promting civilization had not been more extensive, it was because the views under which they were formed had been defeated, by parliament not having sooner effected the abolition of the slave trade, and he thought it was highly unreasonable to talk of calling on the company for a reimbursement of the sums advanced to them, without at the same time giving them credit for the maintenance of the Maroons and,Nova- Scotians, entirely defrayed by them, and which otherwise must have been defrayed from the public purse.
Mr. Fuller
said, that he always conceived the sums of money advanced by government to the Sierra Leone company as done entirely with a view to conciliate the support of a certain description of gentlemen within these walls, and he thought it impossible for the committee of finance to overlook so flagrant a waste of the public money, without recommending that the reimbursement should be made by the company, which he thought should be done amongst the wealthy bankers and merchants who composed that company.
Mr. Sheridan
said, that unless the company had taken the Nova-Scotians and Maroons, the country must have paid 6,000
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Lord H. Petty
supported the same principle, and considered the government bound to continue its protection to the black inhabitants of Sierra Leone, whom it would be the most cruel injustice to abandon, after the fidelity and attachment they had manifested to the British government.
Mr. H. Thornton
said, that he wished the house to understand in what sense he considered the undertaking at Sierra Leone to have answered, and in what sense not to have answered; Since it Was important
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[COMPLAINT RESPECTING THE POOLE WRIT.] Colonel Wood
presented a petition on behalf of W. Spurrier, who was committed into the custody of the serjeant at arms, for his conduct on the subject of the Poole Writ; stating that he had been guilty of a breach of the privilege of the house, and thereby incurred its serious displeasure; and being now fully sensible of his misconduct, most humbly begged pardon for it, and he threw himself on the mercy of the house, humbly hoping that this his contrition might be accepted, and that the house would forgive him, &c. The petition being read, colonel Wood moved, that the petitioner be brought to the bar to-morrow, in order to be discharged.
The Secretary at War
called the attention of the house to the case. The petitioner had kept possession of the writ for 17 days. His son was at first a candidate, and then another in his interest, so that he had very interested motives on this occasion. He acted with a view of turning the election in favour of his family. He had no wish to prevent the lenity of the house
1006
Mr. Fuller
agreed in the sentiments the right hon. baronet.
Mr. W. Smith
thought this case more serious in its nature than that of Mr. Brundrett; the one being a mere agent, the other a sort of principal in misconduct. This gentleman stated, that he paid 30 guineas for having the writ, and that his object was only to keep it in safe custody. It was impossible to credit this assertion. There had hardly ever been so bad a case as this before the house, upon a subject of this nature, although there was one about 40 years ago something like it. He Wished a stop to be put to such practices in future. He would not oppose any lenity which gentlemen wished to shew in this instance, but the case was really a serious one.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
admitted the offence of the petitioner to be serious, but he could not help wishing that the hon. gent who spoke last had expressed his disapprobation of it when the case of Mr. Brundrett was before the house, when nothing but lenity was talked of on that side of the house. He had no objection to a parliamentary enactment to prevent such practices in future, but he saw no particular reason for being rigorous in this case.
Mr. Rose
said, he should certainly Feel himself disposed to inflict a more severe degree of punishment both on Brundrett and Spurrier, had he not been well assured that a bill was about to be brought into parliament, that would prevent such shameful and abusive practices. It should be enacted, that as soon as the clerk of the crown had made out the writs, they Should be immediately transmitted by post to the different sheriffs, under a certain penalty.
Lord H. Petty
thought the house justified in the lenity it shewed on the last occasion when the subject was discussed, nor had he any objection to the lenity now proposed. He wished the house to proceed to the immediate adoption of some measure to prevent this mischief in future.
Mr. Barham
admitted the impropriety of the practice in which this petitioner was concerned; but reminded the house that too many of its own members were intimately acquainted with, if not implicated in something of the same kind; but he,wished the house to stand well with the
1007
Mr. Pole Carew
cautioned the house as to attempts to remedy this evil, and reminded it of the fate of former efforts of that kind.
Mr. Bingham
expressed himself extremely glad at the lenity of the punishment that was inflicted on the prisoner, and the more especially, when he considered the character of that high tribunal before whom the prisoner stood; they were both the judges and the jury in the case, and they acted worthy of their high character in administering justice with mercy.
Mr. Lushington
moved an amendment, that instead of the petitioner being brought up to-morrow, he should be brought up tomorrow se'nnight.
Mr. S. Thornton
thought this case the most extraordinary he had heard of in the course of the 24 years he had sat in parliament. He should vote for the amendment.
Mr. Windham
thought rigour the less necessary in this case, as the house was about to provide a remedy against this evil occurring in future: for the great object of punishment was the prevention of crimes.
Mr. Wilberforce
was disposed to vote for the more severe punishment, on account of the answer which the petitioner gave to the house yesterday; but on account of his age and infirmity, he should not oppose any lenity which might be proposed to be shewn to him.
Mr. Lockhart
thought the house had been somewhat remiss in not promulgating the law upon this subject, and was therefore disposed to be lenient in the present instance.—The house then divided. For the original motion 45; for the amendment 29; majority 16.
[VACCINE INOCULATION:—REWARD TO DR. JENNER.]
The house having re-
1008
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to call the attention of the committee to the Report of the Royal College of Physicians, respecting the mode discovered by Dr. Jenner, of preventing the small-pox, the severest infliction, as a disease, to which mankind was subject. Whatever might have been the origin of the discovery, it had never been known, before that gentleman made it public, that the Vaccine disease could be communicated by inoculation. If that discovery should prevent the smallpox, it was hardly possible to characterize its value in terms too strong. When the committee considered the advantages that had already resulted from it, and that would in future result from it, when the prejudice that existed against it should subside, he was sure the committee would not consider the proposition he meant to make extravagant, but liberal and just to the individual. Nothing was so difficult as to fix upon any standard, whereby to measure what should be the grant of that house upon such an occasion. The subject had been under the consideration of parliament some years since, but then there had not been time to satisfy the house of the value of the discovery, and therefore only 10,000
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Mr. Shaw Lefevre
declared it was with extreme regret he opposed the motion. He entertained for Dr. Jenner the most sincere respect, yet he could not think that this was a period for disposing of 10,000
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Lord H. Petty
contended, that infallibility ought not to be made the test of great discoveries, which ought rather to be estimated by general averages. He was disposed to go farther than the right hon. chancellor of the exchequer, though he should not take upon him to make any spe-
1010
General Tarleton
bore testimony to the value of the discovery, from the number of the military whose lives had been saved by it. It was, besides, an important circumstance, that the troops on recovery might leave their barracks, and others succeed them without any danger of infection. Military men were said to be most fond of, praising great conquerors, but, in his opinion, this gentleman who saved the lives of millions, was entitled to more praise than the most successful conqueror.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
concurred entirely with the noble lord, in the whole of what he had advanced, but most particularly so in the necessity there was for the adoption of some legislative measure, to prevent persons from bringing intentionally infectious
1011
Mr. Hawkins Browne
said, he believed his hon. friend was not correct in what he had stated as to the Small-pox Hospital. He was not prepared at the moment to Speak decisively on the subject, but he believed, though it had formerly been the practice of the Small-pox Hospital to inoculate out-door patients, they had not done so lately. He was one of the governors of that hospital, and he knew they were very favourable to the practice of vaccination. If, however, what had been stated by his hon. friend were true, it would certainly deserve the consideration of the house to put a stop to such injurious proceedings. He thought, however, there had not been sufficient notice taken of one point, viz. that this mode of inoculation Was not subject to infection, and that therefore it was not liable to the serious objections made against inoculation for the small-pox. When this Subject was formerly before the house, he had voted for the smaller sum; but he did not mean thereby to confine himself to it, in case the discovery should be found to be attended with those advantages which had since been found to result from it; and he had no doubt in his mind, but if the then chancellor of the exchequer (Mr. Pitt) were now alive, and in that high office, he would now vote for the additional sum, though he also had then opposed it. He could wish this motion to be amended by the insertion of the words, "that this mode of inoculation was not liable to infection."
Mr. Sturges Bourne
said, in answer to the last hon. gent. that he could assure the committee he was correct in what he had stated as to the Small-pox Hospital, which he shewed by a statement of their Own, by which it appeared they had inocu
1012
Mr. Morris
said, the great merit of this discovery was, that it exterminated the disease, whereas all other modes of inoculation increased it, by being liable to infection, and it had been indisputably proved, that since inoculation there had been more deaths than before it. He thought the sum proposed was too small. Dr. Jenner had dedicated his whole time to it, and had he not succeeded, his name would have been a bye-word among the people, and among those of his own profession in particular. He thought that he deserved from the country which he had so much benefited, a sum of money that would enable him to live in a state of ease, affluence, and independence, for the remainder of his days. He should therefore propose, as an amendment, that instead of the words 10,000
l
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Sir John Sebright
most cordially seconded the motion.
Mr. Herbert
spoke in favour of the amendment. He said, he thought, in such a case as this, the house should have regard to what had been done in former cases of original discoveries. In that of the discovery of the longitude, they had offered 20,000
l
Mr. Wilberforce
said, he was one of those who, on a former occasion, had voted for the lesser sum, because he wished, as far as they were compatible, to act at the same time on the principles of liberality and economy. An hon. gent. had said, that this differed from all other discoveries, because it came out at once matured and ripe for practice; this he believed to be truly correct, for a medical friend of his
1013
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1014
Mr. Windham
approved highly of the system of vaccination. Although no country could give too much as a reward for such a benefit, yet there ought to be limits. In the present case, it was the misfortune of the inventor, that the extent and value of his discovery was so great, because the magnitude of that extent and value rendered it difficult to determine how much he merited. He should vote for the larger sum of 20,000
l
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought it material to state, that an annuity could not be voted without the previous form of a committee of the whole house, or without a message from his majesty. Under every consideration of the subject, he thought the sum originally proposed was just what ought to be voted. He commended the care taken by the Speaker to disseminate the conviction of the established authenticity of this discovery, by causing an
1015
Mr. W. Smith
thought, that in order to constitute the grant or reward, the expences Dr. Jenner had been at ought to be previously paid. Dr. Jenner could prove, that he had expended more than the original sum voted to him, in propagating the discovery, before the vote had passed. He cited from a Madrid gazette of October last, an account of the honours done to a medical person, sent to communicate the vaccine inoculation in all the foreign possessions of Spain, upon his return from his mission. He cited reports from various parts of the world, stating the success of vaccination, particularly in our Indian possessions. He trusted that under these circumstances, the larger reward would be voted.
Mr. Whitbread
maintained the propriety of voting the larger sum. He was the more particularly interested in recommending this discovery to remuneration, as it had contributed infinitely to the relief of the poor, in whose cause he was now particularly engaged. If this opportunity of conferring an adequate reward should be passed by, it would never return.
Mr. Fuller
also supported the enlarged motion. He thought something ought to be done to prevent inoculation for the small-pox, otherwise the discovery would not have its full effect.
[POOR RELIEF BILL.] Mr. Whitbread
moved the order of the day for going into a committee on the poor's Relief bill.— On the clause relating to Settlement, a conversation took place between Mr. Morris, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Calvert, Mr. Giddy, Mr. W. Smith, Mr. Pole Carew, Mr. Rose, Mr. S. Bourne, and the Solicitor-General.
Mr. S. Bourne
proposed that the blank should be filled up with the words "ten years," instead Of "five."
Mr. Whitbread
was willing to admit the introduction of "seven years."—A division ensued; for the ten years 32, against it 25: majority 7.
1016
Mr. W. Smith
moved for the admission into the clause of a proviso that it should not extend to Norwich.
Mr. Whitbread
then declared his intention of abandoning the bill for the present session, and the chairman left the chair.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, July 30.
[MINUTES.]
The Irish Insurrection bill went through the committee, and was reported. Lord Kingston rose to observe, that he felt it incumbent on him to take notice of a misrepresentation which had gone abroad in a morning paper, of the few remarks he had made in the course of the debate on the second reading of the Irish Insurrection bill. As he did not imagine such a misrepresentation could be intentional, he should take no advantage of any privilege the house might possess of calling the printer to the bar, but he wished it to be understood, that he meant not the least disrespect to the magistrates of the county of Sligo. What he pointed to was, the case of a person in the county of Wexford, who, during the late rebellion in Ireland, had a halter round his neck, and was actually on the point of being hanged.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, July 30.
[COMPLAINT RESPECTING THE POOLE WRIT.]
Mr. William Spurrier, on the motion of colonel Wood, was brought to the bar, where he received the following reprimand from the Speaker, and was ordered to be discharged out of custody paying his fees:
1017
nem. con
[EAST-INDIA COMPANY'S BONDS BILL.]
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Mr. Creevey
said, when he formerly expressed a wish that the further progress in this bill should be postponed, he did so because the necessary accounts were not then all on the table. They had since been produced, and they were by no means calculated to satisfy him, that the company had any prospect of being able to produce a revenue which should at any time greatly exceed their expenditure, or such as would enable them to provide for the payment of these Bonds. It appeared to him, that there was even on the accounts 1805–6, a deficiency of 2,000,000
l
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1018
Mr. R. Dundas
contended, that by properly analysing the accounts on the table, the hon. member would have found that the accounts for 1805–6, instead of a deficiency, produced a surplus of 800,000
l
Lord Folkestone
declared, from all the attention he had been able to pay to the subject, that the deduction drawn by his hon. friend (Mr. Creevey), not that of the right hon. gent. opposite, was correct.
General Tarleton
said, he had it in charge from his constituents to oppose the bill; and particularly to oppose the renewal of the company's exclusive 'charter; which, when it came before the house, he should feel it his duty to do.
Mr. Whitbread
thought that the weight of testimony was at present against the company. If, however, an hon. member of the board of controul (Mr. Johnstone), whom he now saw in his place, would join his testimony to that of the gentleman at the head of the board, as to the state of the company's affairs, and the probability of a favourable issue, he should be satisfied; at least it would go far to make him credit the statement of the right hon. gent.(Mr. R. Dundas.)—The bill was then read a third time. On the question that the bill do pass, Mr. W. said, that observing the hon. gent. to whom he alluded, had preserved a determined silence, he must object to the passing of the bill.
Mr. Johnstone
felt himself extremely flattered by the appeal made to him by the hon. gent. opposite. Gentlemen, however, would recollect that he had always been impressed with a gloomy opinion on this subject. He confessed he did not at this moment look to the future situation of the company with a sanguine eye. By prudence and economy, he thought much might be done; but the company ought not, and could not, expect a great additional revenue. As much was already drawn from their territories, as could be expected. It was therefore to economy
1019
Mr. Grant,
in reply to Mr. Creevey, said he had often, when Indian subjects were before the house, expressed his readiness to go into a full investigation of those subjects, and of the company's affairs, provided only that the investigation were to be conducted not by party prejudice, but with fairness and impartiality. No subjects more required to be treated dispassionately and without aggravation. To consider them in any other way, must be productive of mischief, rather than of benefit, yet he was sorry to observe that the hon. gent. (Mr. Creevey) had indulged himself in statements which appeared chargeable with exaggeration, and to be in some points the result rather of ignorance than of knowledge. With respect to the desire shewn of passing this bill through the house, before the accounts of the Indian budget could come under consideration, it arose merely from an expectation that the session would be a very short one. The Indian accounts of the two last years had not been long in the possession of the court of directors, and the hon. gent. himself ought to know from experience, the difficulty of such an arrangement of those numerous documents as should put them in a fit state for the consideration of the house. The fact was, that with all the diligence that could be exerted, it was found impracticable to place them on the table in a printed state, before the time at which it was necessary to proceed with the present bill. The papers of the first year he hoped would be laid before the house today, those of the second were in a state of forwardness, and would follow in a few days; but if this bill were to wait for the discussion of them, the object proposed by it might be defeated. There were besides, documents already before the house, which sufficiently shewed the ground of the pre-
1020
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1021
1022
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, July 31.
[IRISH INSURRECTION BILL.]
On the
1023
The Duke of Bedford
moved to limit the duration of the bill to one year and two months, after the commencement of the then next session of parliament, instead of two years and six months after the commencement of the then next session of parliament, as expressed in the bill. The noble duke thought that a bill conferring such extraordinary powers should have as short a duration as possible.
Lord Hawkesbury
thought, that the knowledge that such a bill existed, and that the powers conferred by it might be called into action, would do much to repress and keep down a spirit of disturbance. With this view of the subject, regretting as he did, the necessity that existed for such a measure, he still thought that the longer period was preferable; nor did he see any reason to expect that the causes which produced the necessity for this bill would cease to operate within the shorter period proposed by the noble duke.
Lord Holland
viewing as he did the state of Ireland, and with the sentiments which he had constantly avowed with respect to the causes of that unfortunate situation of affairs in Ireland which led to the necessity for the present bill, could not help pressing upon the attention of their lordships the great importance of discussing the affairs of Ireland in parliament, and of endeavouring to come to those conclusions which might, by removing the causes of grievance, prevent the necessity of recurring to such measures as the present. He could not, therefore, but be a warm friend to frequent discussions of this subject. He thought that every opportunity should be taken of recurring to it, and therefore he supported the amendment moved by his noble friend, in order that this important subject might again come under the consideration of parliament at an earlier period than it otherwise could do, according to the term of duration expressed in the bill.
The Duke of Montrose
deprecated frequent discussions of this subject, which could do no possible good, but on the contrary, only tended to keep up a spirit of irritation amongst the people of Ireland. Instead of shortening the duration of the
1024
Lord Sidmouth
was inimical to giving a long duration to bills of this nature, but from the situation of Ireland, he believed the term of duration, expressed in this bill, to be necessary. He was decidedly hostile to frequent discussion of this subject as tending to excite irritation in Ireland.
Earl Grosvenor
supported the amendment, conceiving from the nature of the clauses, that the bill ought to have the shortest possible duration.
Lord Mulgrave
would rather have agreed to extend the duration of the bill than to shorten it; convinced, as he was, of its necessity, and, at the same time, that it was always in the power of parliament to repeal it in case that necessity ceased.—The amendment was negatived, and the bill read a third time and passed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, July 31.
[IRISH PROTESTANT CHURCH.] Sir J. Newport
enquired if any step was intended to be taken by his majesty's ministers, founded on the returns which had been made of the state of the established church in Ireland? He had the authority of the primate and metropolitan of all Ireland, for stating that there were, in one diocese, no less than 10 parishes without a church, without a glebe-house, without, in short, any sort of residence for the clertyman, and without any probability that there would shortly be any dwelling erected for that purpose. It was known that his majesty's late ministers had entered into a serious consideration of those circumstances; and, if he was not given to understand that the present ministers intended to make some material alteration in that respect, he gave notice that he would, early in the next sessions, submit to parliament, a proposition on that head.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
assured the right hon. baronet, that it was the intention of his majesty's present servants to turn their attention to the state of the church in Ireland, as soon as they had before them such documents as might authorize them to take any step towards the accomplishment of so desirable an object. At present, however, he had not in his hands such returns as he thought necessary, previous to his endeavour to remedy the
1025
[STATE OF IRELAND.] Mr. Sheridan
gave notice, that he would, on Friday next, submit to the house a motion relative to the general State of Ireland.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
expressed a desire to be informed, what was the particular object which the right hon. gent. had in contemplation? It might for the present suffice if the right hon. gent. would state, whether his attention was meant to be directed towards the civil, ecclesiastical, or military state of that part of the united kingdom, as by that means he might be prepared to meet the subject.
Mr. Sheridan
said, that he had not the least unwillingness to satisfy the right hon. gent. as far as the rules of the house would permit him at present. His intent was to submit to the house the proposition of a strong pledge, that they would, early in the next session, enter into an enquiry as to the causes of that discontent which was said to exist in Ireland, and upon the rumour of which the house had been induced to adopt that strong measure, the Irish Insurrection act, which would shortly, no doubt, receive the sanction of both houses of parliament.
[SUBSIDIES TO PRUSSIA AND SWEDEN, &c.]
On the motion of the chancellor of the exchequer, the house resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which his majesty's messages, and several other papers, were referred.
Mr. Secretary Canning
in moving the house to grant the sums which were the subject of his majesty's messages, should content himself with stating shortly, that the first sum of 80,000
l
1026
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1027
Lord H. Petty
had no objection to the motion. The first advance had been made by the government to which he had the honour to belong. While these advances were intrusted to the management of such safe hands as those of lord Hutchinson, the public might rely with confidence on having its interests fully guarded; for, along with the military enterprize that belonged in so high a degree to that distinguished person, there were blended in his character a caution and a prudence which afforded a perfect assurance of the safe and judicious exercise of the discretion reposed in him. With respect to the additional engagements with Sweden, he had no objection to them, if they could be brought to answer any purpose of practical utility. But when these engagements should come to be made the ground of a vote, it would be proper to enquire how far there existed the means of carrying them into effect on the part of his Swedish majesty, who, he understood, had not completed the first force of 12,000 he had stipulated to employ in Pomerania.
Lord Castlereagh
assured the noble lord, that at the time of concluding the additional engagement, the force serving at Stralsund exceeded the 12,000 men stipulated in the other treaty.
Mr. Whitbread
wished to know, whether the stipulations of the treaty with Prussia would be laid before the house.
Mr. Canning
said, he did not see how such a communication could with propriety be made by his majesty's ministers. If, however, the hon. gent. wished particularly for information on the subject, he might move for it, and the house would then determine whether it ought to be granted. For his own part he regretted, as much as the hon. gent., that the treaties could not with propriety be laid open, for he wished the conduct of the present government to be enquired into. They were well convinced of the propriety and policy of their measures, and proud of what they had done. In both instances the advances been made in cases of great and pressing emergency, and formed only a small part of the subsidy which was to have been paid in consequence of the treaties, had they been completed.
Mr. Whitbread
considered it as very important, that every means should be of forded of judging of the continental policy, for which his majesty's ministers promised
1028
l
Mr. Secretary Canning
was still of opinion, that the treaty itself could not possibly be laid before the house; but it was competent to the hon. gent. to frame a motion for any information he might wish for; the house would exercise its discretion as to the propriety of granting such information, and in the discussion the hon. member would have an opportunity of knowing, and commenting upon much of the continental policy of his majesty's servants. He could assure him that there was no shyness on his part, or that of his colleagues; to submit their conduct to the judgment and investigation of the house, and they challenged that investigation with as full confidence as those who had preceded them. If the hon. gent. felt any jealousy at this time in particular, let him call for any information he wished for. The vote now before the committee rested on the some ground as the advance made by the late government in March. The only difference was, that the advance then made was specific, and distinct in itself; while the subsequent advance was made in prospect of a subsidy, from which, if this treaty had taken effect, it would have been deducted. This advance might have been stated to the house as a distinct thing, like the other; but his majesty's government thought it better to profess the whole truth without disguise. He lamented, that invincible impediments of form prevented the house from having the treaty before it.
Mr. Whitbread
was ready to admit that the right hon. gent. and his colleagues, acted from the best view they had of what
1029
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1030
Mr. Secretary Canning
though he could not say he was prepared to second an motion the hon, gent. might make with view to obtain information, was yet willing to give him every possible facility with respect to the object he had in view. The advance of 100,000
l
Mr. Whitbread
wished to know whether lord Hutchinson was a party to the treaty of subsidy. He wished also, as it had been said by some of the gentlemen on another day, that the situation of the continent had come upon them unexpectedly; he wished to know, whether they had not received from lord Hutchinson information, the effect of which was to prognosti-
1031
Mr. Secretary Canning
would not decline answering the hon. gent.'s question, on the ground that it had no reference to the matter in debate. Lord Hutchinson had certainly always given reason to expect, that unless certain things should be done, it was likely that a general battle, if given, would be lost. It was possible, however, that a general battle might be avoided, as the obvious and avowed policy was to avoid it. Another contingency was the arrival of Military aid from Britain. The first communication the present ministers had received on entering into Office, conveyed the expectation of that aid: whether the expectation was authorized, he knew not; but the aid was expected, and no preparation was made to afford it either by descent in a certain point, or by diversion. But instead of having made any preparations to contribute in either way, the whole of the transports in foreign service had been dismissed some time before the change of administrtaion. The other contingency put by lord Hutchinson was, that unless Prussia should be supported by military as well as pecuniary aid, it would be impossible to go on. Lord Hutchinson's naked opinion was certainly discouraging. But, taking the chance of its being possible to avoid a general battle, and of supporting with pecuniary and military aid the efforts that remained to be made, there was still room to hope for a different issue: his majesty's government immediately supplied pecuniary aid to the extent which it thought right, and was prepared to afford military aid as far as that should be possible. He was sorry to have been compelled to go so far into this discussion in the absence of a noble lord (Howick), in the hope of whose presence the consideration of his majesty's message
1032
Mr. Whitbread
did not conceive that the reputation of the noble lord, for whom he was particularly interested, was at all brought into hazard by the discussion that had arisen: but even if it were, the superior importance to the country, of bringing forth the explanations that were so essentially necessary, would have been a prior consideration with him. It was allowed, that lord Hutchinson held forth but a discouraging prospect of the issue of the last campaign. But the right hon. gent. hedged in some contingencies which might have retarded or retrieved the otherwise inevitable disaster. One thing, however, was sufficient to prove that there was no hope to be entertained from Russia. Driven back as she was to her frontier, if she felt still under a necessity of avoiding a general engagement, her case was absolutely hopeless. If there were from the beginning, persons who entertained hopes of success, where he confessed he saw no prospect, exaggerated as every little advantage on the side of Russia was, and extenuated as were the successes of France; if in such a situation, no prospect of success was seen, except in avoiding a general engagement, all hope was gone. Then, it was said that lord Hutchinson had intimated, that there was an impression that British aid would be afforded on the continent. He asked the right hon. gent. whether, when the contest broke out between France and Prussia, the latter was not at war with Great Britain for Hanover, which she refused to give up, except it should be wrested from her by force of arms. This was in November. Then, what possibility was there, even if it should be expedient to send a British force, to dispatch that force before the change in administration? He for one thought it inexpedient to send a British force. For,if Russia, drawn to her frontiers, could not make a stand there, no possible aid that British troops could give, would avail. The right hon. gent. then said, that when the present ministers came into office they found no means of carrying their views of continental co-operation into effect. They came into office in April, when they immediately felt the necessity of sending military aid to Prussia, and of increasing the
1033
l
Lord Castlereagh
said, the hon, gent. had touched on points which would render it necessary for him to go more at length into the subject in debate, than he should otherwise have been disposed to do. The hon. gent. in the independent comments which he was very properly in the habit of exercising, had on this occasion glanced on matters, the consideration of which could not be very favourable to his right hon friends. He denied that by the mere accident of being at war with Prussia at the time the government of this country was justified in omitting to prepare to wart off the blow, which sound policy would never warrant it in suffering to fall upon Prussia. During the whole period in which the late ministers had suffered themselves to be made dupes at Paris, in negociations in which all the principles that ought to characterize statesmen were belied and adandoned, it was matter of notoriety, even to persons out of the government, that, though Prussia was nominally at war with this country (for it was never more than a nominal war), there were discussions of so angry a nature, that it was probable it would involve these two power in a war, in which Russia also would eventually participate. Under these circumstances the policy that should have marked the conduct of a wise British government was obvious: but the very reverse was exhibited in the conduct of the late government. Instead of being prepared to act for the best advantage upon the opportu-
1034
1035
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1036
1037
Mr. Windham
complimented the noble lord on his prudence in reserving these extensive accusations for an occasion when they were only incidentally introduced, and when no specific answer could be made to them. He could excuse the temporary warmth with which the right hon. gent. had launched out on one of those topics of accusation; but the noble lord had brought forth a grand declamation, had assumed facts totally unproved, and had made statements wholly without foundation, for the purpose of censuring the general conduct of the war by the late administration. He had prudently forborne producing these general charges until near the close of the session, then incidentally, when no reply could be given to them, having omitted to bring forward any allegations during four months that he had been in power. As far as he could, he would distinctly go over the statements of the noble lord. His first general charge against his majesty's late ministers, was of supineness and abandonment of the continent. Whether an army ought to have been sent at all to the continent, whether it thought to have been sent to one place or to another—these were grand questions of policy not to be decided immediately, or obliquely. If the gentlemen opposite had a mind to arraign the conduct of the late administration on this subject, in God's name let them appoint a day for that purpose. The question was, whether it would not have been ridiculous for an insular power, like Great Britain, to attack the considerable armies on the continent, when the very next minute, her own defence might require the presence at home of every soldier whom she could collect? When he said this he did not mean to go so far as to assert, that no occasion could in his opinion arise, in which such a cooperation on our part would be unadviseable. So with regard to subsidies, were
1038
1039
1040
Lord Castlereagh
said, that in affirming that the 9th regiment of dragoons had returned from pursuing its destination, consequence of the state of the transports in winch they had embarked, he was not guilty of mis-statement—they came back to request copper-bottoms. The grand policy of his late right hon. friend (Mr.Pitt) was, that there was always, during his administration, every thing in readiness for the immediate embarkation of at least 10,000 men; a striking instance of that policy, and the good consequences resulting from it, was in the successful expedition of sir David Baird to the Cape; whereas, on his coining into office, there was not above 11,000 tonnage of copper-bottomed transports. But certainly the policy between the two governments was different, for the right hon. gent. had candidly admitted that his government had no intention whatever of sending out troops to the continent.
Mr. Windham
denied that he had ever made such admission; what he had said was, that the government had then no immediate intention of sending out troops to the continent, and he had endeavoured to prove that they were then right, in, at that time, acting up to such a policy. As to the transports, there was not a single ship fit for that purpose, that was rejected by the transport office.
Lord Castlereagh
said, that all who were conversant in the nature of preparing expeditions, must know that copper-bottomed transports, amounting to 10,000 tons, could embark only 4000 men. He had said, that the late ministers left in employ behind them but 11,000 tonnage, and he contended that such was a conclusive proof that the late government had not then in idea any effort for the relief of the continent.
Mr. Windham
said, that if the noble lord took up transports with the same avidity with which he took up facts, the present government could never be deficient in transports. He (Mr. W.) could not then speak from memory, and therefore he would not, as the noble lord had done, throw out vague charges and loose assertions; but he did believe that it was not as the noble lord had so confidently stated; and admitting the truth of the statement, how
1041
Mr. Rose
defended the appointment of sir Home Popham, which had been so pointedly alludes to by the right hon. gent. Sir Home Popham had been selected by admiral Gambier as his captain, and his right of selection was not to be disputed. Lord Howe had selected sir Roger Curtis, and that selection had given rise to no animadversion.
Lord H. Petty
said, that the animadversions on the appointment of sir Home Popham naturally followed from what had been said on the other side with respect to that expedition, which had originated with a former ministry, who had been active in bringing forward that officer. As to the precedent that had been cited, he could not accede to it; for he well knew that the appointment of sir Roger Curtis had given rise to very general dissatisfaction, and he had reason to believe that the selection of sir Home Popham had also given rise to great dissatisfaction, and he would add, that were not that officer now absent, on the service of his country, he Should feel it his duty to submit to parliament a motion relative to an enquiry into a certain bargaining transaction at the Cape, in which the expedition to South America had originated, and in which that office was not a little concerned. The noble lord opposite to him, in his strictures on the late administration, had taken an opportunity of giving him his share of the general censure. The imputation thrown on him by the noble lord, he should ever consider as a merit, because it was an imputation of economy. He should not be ashamed of having used his humble efforts to husband the resources of the country in a crisis like the present, when there was such demand for the wise, and useful, and considerate application of them. The noble lord opposite should be, therefore, the less surprized if his own financial propositions had not met with the fullest approbation from one who thought too well of economy to approve of any plan that went to scout it. In that case, too the noble lord had not forgotten to deal out his usual imputations against him, when that noble lord was submitting to that house a plan
1042
Mr. Secretary Canning
warmly reprobated the policy that had been laid down by the noble lord, and contended that either that noble lord had been directing his censures
1043
1044
The Solicitor-General
for Scotland depre-
1045
Mr. Whitbread
said, that any thing which occurred in that house could not be characterized as whispering upon the subject to which it applied. His noble friend had adverted to a transaction that had already appeared in all the newspapers, the agreement entered into between sir H. Popham and sir D. Baird, respecting the division of the prize money, before a single man had been embarked on the expedition against Buenos Ayres, which, he said, was a fit subject to be enquired into in that house. In fact, the matter was at present the subject of a suit in one of the courts of law. As to the appointment of sir H. Popham to the post he filled, he must say, that it had given general dissatisfaction in the
1046
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Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that it was no more the duty of the present ministers to bring a charge against their predecessors, that, it was the duty of their predecessors to bring a charge against them. He thought his predecessors wrong, and that they had ruined the continent. But as the conduct of an existing government might involve the country in disaster, if the gentlemen opposite thought them wrong they ought to bring a charge against them.
Mr. Windham rose
to clear himself from some misrepresentations of the right honourable secretary of state. He liked his ingenuity and eloquence very well; but did not think his arguments the most respectable. He imputed opinions and assertions to gentlemen, that he might
1048
l
Mr. Windham
contended, that even in the opinion of the volunteers themselves, these were useless. They might be inspected by the generals of the districts. This had been a project to answer election purposes. As it had done all the good it could do in that way, he thought the ministers might give up the matter, and save some expence to the public.
The Secretary at War
wished to know if the inspection by generals of districts had been practised during the right hon. gent's administration. The number of volunteers, he believed, was in many instances greater where there were no general officers. As to the idea of a job, he asserted that the inspecting field-officers had in general, or rather without an exception, been re-appointed, without regard to the degree of interest they might posses. It could, therefore, be of little consequence whether the re-appointment had taken place on the eve of an election or not. He contended that the Volunteer spirit had greatly subsided in many counties since that right hon. gent. had come into office.
1049
Mr. Windham
admitted that a relaxation to the volunteering spirit had taken place; but maintained that it had manifested itself some considerable time previous to his coming into office.
General Tarleton
said, the volunteers in the district in which he had the honour to command, could never have reached the state of discipline to which they had arrived but for the exertions of the Inspecting Field-officers. If an invasion had taken place two years ago, they would have been able, from that district, in the course of two days, to have produced 30,000 men within ten miles of the metropolis.
Mr. Calcraft
stated that before his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham)came into office, the Volunteer force had decreased from 400.000 to 318,000, and during his administration they had fallen off in a much less proportion, not having decreased above 20 or 25,000 men. He remembered that he himself as a volunteer, had been inspected by Major-generals and lieutenant-generals, and he did not see why that practice might not be continued. The gallant general (Tarleton) had now his head-quarters at Bath, and it was a great pity that the parliament did not sit there, as in such a case the gallant general could reconcile his senatorial duties with the duties of commanding officer of the district, and in such case he might again honour the volunteers so far as to review them.
General Tarleton
said a few words in explanation, and imputed to the hon. gent. great military ignorance.
Mr. Rose
retorted the charge of a job, by alluding to th 300 surveyors of taxes, proposed to have been appointed by the late administration.
Mr. Beresford
deprecated the system of recrimination which had become so much the practice of members on both sides of the house. As to the subject immediately before the house, he felt himself necessitated to say, that the language held in that house by the right hon. gent. and the measures adopted by him, had such an effect on the volunteers in Ireland, as to make at least one half of those who had been most zealous in the service, turn their backs upon it.
The Solicitor-General
of Scotland spoke in praise of the Scotch volunteers, whom he also stated to have been very much discouraged by the language of Mr. Windham.
Mr. Windham
Said, the arguments of the last hon. and learned gent. were merely
1050
Dr. Laurence
said, he recollected a very different history respecting that corps. They were a corps that wanted greater allowances to be made to them than what was usual. An hon. general (Tarleton) had, in his explanation, accused an hon. friend of his of gross ignorance in military matters. The house would, however, recollect that about a fortnight ago, the hon. general had exerted all his military calculation to persuade the house that Bonaparte had advanced so far in Poland that it was next to impossible he should ever be able to retreat. After so recent a promulgation of his military opinions, he thought the house would not believe that every military man was completely ignorant of his profession, who might differ in opinion from the. hon. general.— After some conversation, the committee divided: For the vote 34; Against it 24.
l
l
1051
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, August 3
[PUBLICANS' LICENCE BILL.] Mr. Sheridan
presented a petition from certain publicans, &c. praying the aid of parliament, in alleviation of certain grievances with respect to the granting and revoking of Licences. The petition was ordered to lie on the table. Mr. S. then rose and said, that the petition he just had the honour of presenting was signed by more than 1,000 persons. As to the abuses of which that petition complained, and the remedy which he proposed for those abuses, he must at present decline entering into them. He contended that they could be satisfactorily proved upon the most unquestionable testimony, at the
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had no objection to the motion, but did think that the right hon. gent. should have distinctly stated the instances of cruel and grinding oppression he had in such very strong terms complained of. If any of the magistracy had been guilty of such a breach of their duty, it might be made the subject of a criminal action. He could not approve of the line of distinction the right hon. gent. seemed to draw between the magistracy.—After a few words between Mr. S. Bourne, the. Marquis of Titchfield, and Mr. A. Cooper, the motion was agreed to.
[MILITIA TRANSFER BILL.]
On the order of the day, for the further consideration of this bill,
1052
Mr. Frankland
argued against the principle of the bill, and thought that the militia had many advantages over the regulars. The man that was good at the foil, could not be unskilful at the sword; and he thought the illustration applied well to the. militia. The latter was a more settled and compact force, and were less liable to the ill effects of a constant succession of new officers, than the regular, forces. The hon. gent. dwelt on the importance of uniting, as much as possible, the character of the soldier and the citizen. The militia force was a most constitutional body, and ought not by any means to be discouraged, as would be done by the present bill. He must also object to it as going obliquely to undermine the system of military service introduced last year by his right. hon. friend, while it was not directly and manfully brought under the consideration of the house.
Mr. Whitshed Keene
rose and said: In this late stage of the important subject now before the house, I beg leave to trouble it for a short time. I am one of those that voted for the measures proposed by his majesty's ministers, not that. I thought them complete for the purpose, or that they were the best that might have been devised, but because, after having considered every thing that has been thrown out on the different sides of the house, (who all agree in the end although they differ as to the means) I thought this mode preferable, from a persuasion that as it was apparent a large deficiency must exist for some time in our military, establishments, it was the interest of our country, under the present exigency, the deficiency should be thrown on the militia, rather than on our regular force; both on the probability of that deficiency, being sooner filled up with trained soldiers, applicable to every purpose, than by any other mode proposed; and again, on the probability of that deficiency in the militia, being made good in an easier and more economical manner, than it would be if it existed in the troops of the line. The length to which this session has been protracted, by the circumstances which have occurred, may, perhaps, justify the officers of government in not proposing to this house at present further measures, which possibly might retard this measure, which promises expeditiously a great increase of that force of the country adapted either to offensive or defensive operations. As government has the best means of judging how far the danger may be more or less imminent, on them
1053
1054
1055
1056
The Secretary at War
thought the present measure might have been assented to
1041*
Dr. Laurence
begged to call the attention of the house to the conduct of the present ministers, vho never rested their measures on their own merit, but always went to comparisons. When in opposition, they had perpetually called for his right hon, friend's plan before he had been two months in office, and yet, after a lapse of 4 months, they themselves had come forward with this magnificent measure! They had taken care, too, to bring it forward at this late period of the session, and had
1042*
1043*
Mr. Wilberforce
supported the bill. It was highly necessary to increase the force of the country, for now that Buonaparte had been so successful on the continent, he would be induced to attempt achievements to which even his bold spirit had not hitherto prompted him.
Mr. Windham
said, his hon. and learned friend (Dr. Laurence) had been mistaken and mis-stated as well as himself, and both had been charged with uttering opinions that the country was in no danger. They had never said so; but had only contended that ministers had not shewn an emergency which required that this particular measure should be resorted to. The first question on this head was, what was the nature of the emergency, and, the next, if the measure now proposed was calculated to meet that emergency? He denied that it was. It was nothing more than a temporary remedy to guard against a permanent mischief. They ought to look forward, and provide permanent remedies to meet and counteract permanent evils. If they went on in this manner, living from hand to mouth, providing only for the present, and taking no thought for the future, they would come at last to a state in which the present could no longer be provided for. They might safely neglect the future as long as it was future, but they should recollect, that what was future would in time become present. His own measure was on the contrary calculated to provide a permanent force, to meet a danger which was equally permanent, and to operate at all times the defence of the country. Those temporary expedients only placed the country in the situation of a person who was supported by drams and cordials, which, however they might give an apparent increase of animal spirits, must in the end destroy his health, constitution, and life. This measure professed to make an addition in the course of 12 months, and to provide a force of 40,000 men, and immediately to obtain 28,000 men by a transfer from the militia to the army; but this was a fallacious way of reckoning, for in
1044*
Lord Castlereagh
replied in support of his bill, which he said would in six months add a force to the army of the country, which the right hon. gent.'s plan would not have added in six years; for it was only calculated to feed the ordinary deficiencies by casualty, to keep its strength just where it stood. Besides, at the end of seven years by that plan, 53,000 men would be entitled to their discharge, which, added to the ordinary deficiences for the year, would create such a chasm in the public force, as the right hon. gent. would find impossible to recruit in a year: and as to the Training act, it was impossible to bring it in operation before the commencement of next session.—The report was then taken into further consideration, and upon the clause substituting the option of unlimited for limited service, a division took place; when there appeared,. For the clause 96; against it 46.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, August 4.
[OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL.]
The order of the day having beep read for the second reading of this bill,
Lord Arden
rose. He considered the bill to be an unnecessary and indecent attack upon the king's lawful prerogative. Nothing whatever had been stated to prove that such a measure was necessary, except merely an expression in the preamble of the bill, that it was expedient for the public service. The manner also in which the bill originated was very unusual, and no
1045*
Earl Grosvenor
expressed great regret at the opposition given to this bill by his noble friend. He conceived the bill to be so completely in unison with the popular feeling at the present moment, that it would be unwise to reject it, and he thought his majesty's ministers, by opposing the bill, would render themselves so unpopular that they would not long remain in office. He was a warm friend to the bill, not merely for its own sake, but for the sake of those measures of reform relative to the public expenditure, of which he considered this merely as the forerunner—measures which were highly necessary at a crisis like the present, when it was of so much importance to engage the hearts as well as the arms of the people. He trusted their lordships would not be induced to reject the bill.
The Earl of Lauderdale
called their lordships' attention to his majesty's speech at the close of the last session, in which satisfaction was expressed at the conduct of the committee of finance, and contended that this bill, being the only measure which that committee had then recommended, the king's speech contained in effect an approval of the measure. After ministers had thus approved of the measure, after they had approved of it in the other house, and after the bill had been so long in this house, he was greatly astonished at the opposition it now experienced. He could not help also adverting to the conduct of his majesty's ministers upon this occasion. If they now thought this bill ought not to pass, why did they not attend in their places, and oppose it in a manly manner, instead of staying away themselves, and sending their friends and connections to oppose the bill? [None of the ministers were present, except the lord chancellor.] He did not mean by this to impute to the noble lord that he was sent there for that purpose; but that construction would be put upon such conduct by the public. He was convinced that the public feeling was strongly in favour of the bill; and that ought to be, at the present moment, a strong argument in its favour. The granting of offices in reversion he considered, to be highly prejudicial to the public service, and highly improper; such grants being frequently made to children, at a very early age, aud such offices, although requiring regulation, from a change of circum
1046*
Lord Arden
said, he was not sent to that house to oppose the bill, nor would he be sent there by any man: he opposed the bill because he conceived it to be his duty as a peer of parliament to do so.
The Earl of Lauderdale
in explanation, disclaimed any intention of throwing the least imputation upon the noble lord; he only meant to allude to the construction which would be put in the public mind upon the opposition given to the bill, coupled with the absence of his majesty's ministers.
Lord Melville
said there was only one point in which he agreed with the noble lord (Lauderdale), namely, that which related to the absence of ministers. He wished they had been there to declare their sentiments in opposition to the bill, if such were the sentiments which they entertained upon the subject. But when the absence of ministers was spoken of, he would ask, where were the illustrious members of the late administration? Why did not they attend to support their own bill, and display their parental fondness for their own offspring? He denied that this measure had been approved of or alluded to in his majesty's speech. The speech applauded the general object the committee of finance, namely, to enquire into the means of reforming and economizing the public expenditure, but could not be made to apply to the present measure. No argument had, he contended, been adduced in favour of the present measure, except an assertion, that it was agreeable to the public feeling. He did not believe that there was any such feeling in the public mind, nor was there any thing in the bill by which the public could be benefited. If the bill were to pass, not a sixpence
1047*
Lord Holland
said, as the noble viscount had begun his speech by stating that there was only one point in the speech of his noble friend (the earl of Lauderdale), in which he agreed, so he would observe that there was only one point in the speech of the noble viscount in which he had the good fortune to agree, and that was, that his majesty's ministers ought to have been present to have declared their sentiments in a a manly manner upon this bill. As to the charge made by the noble viscount, of the absence of the members of the late administration, he could assure their lordships, that, had there been the least expectation that this bill would be opposed, there would have been a full attendance of those noble lords, with whom he had the honour to act. But when it was recollected that only tour-and-twenty hours notice had been given of any intention to oppose
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1049*
The Earl of Lauderdale
again referred to his majesty's speech at the close of the last session, his majesty's speech at the opening of the present session, and to the votes of the house of commons, containing the resolution on which the present bill was founded; and contended that his majesty's speeches contained a full approval of this measure.
Lord Melville
again contended that his majesty's speeches only contained an approval of the general object of the committee of finance.
The Earl of Selkirk
approved of the bill, upon the principle that it was to be considered as the forerunner of other great and important measures.
Lord Boringdon
said, however unpleasant it might be for him to differ in opinion with those with whom he usually agreed, he felt it incumbent upon him to support this bill. It was a measure to which the country looked with no little anxiety: considering it as recommended by his majesty, and expected by the public, it should have his support—The question having been put on lord Holland's amendment, the house divided: Non-contents 15; Contents 9; Majority 6.—The bill was then read a second time; and upon the question for the third reading, it was moved by lord Arden, that it should be read a third time this day 3 months, which was carried without a division.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, August 4.
[PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS BILL.] Mr. Whitbread
moved the order of the day for taking into farther consideration the report on the Parochial schools bill; which being read,
Mr. Davies Giddy
said, though he should
1050*
Mr. W. Smith
defended the principle of instructing all classes of society, and thought that those who opposed it must necessarily found their arguments upon mistake. Sedition, if it was at all to be propagated or encouraged by instruction or general knowledge, was much more likely to be so, by its being communicated by the ear, than it would be when communicated by the eye. It appeared to him that one ill-intentioned man, disposed to propagate sedition, might do infinitely more mischief, by inflaming the passions of the people by seditious harangues, than could be done by their reading the most inflammatory and seditious pamphlets; and it was surely much better to counteract seditious pamphlets, by their being able to read others of a contrary tendency, than to hire men to make speeches, in order to put down the effect of seditious harangues. If the government of a country were afraid of making the people enlightened and well informed, he really did not see how they could possibly stop short of wishing that they had no understandings at all.
Mr. Pole Carew
objected to the clause relative to the purchasing, hiring, or erecting buildings for the purpose of giving the requisite instruction. He had been told that the poor's rates were ultimately to be lowered, by enlightening the lower orders of the people; but he was convinced it would have quite a contrary effect, and tend to nothing more than raising the poor's rates, and affording them an education beyond what their situations in life required. That education was certainly best which was nearest adapted to the particular sphere of each individual. Institutions for education were increasing daily, and he saw no occasion for increasing their number; the more especially as he thought small schools were more desirable than large ones; because, in the latter, immorality was more likely to be imbibed than morality and virtue. For these, and other reasons, he proposed to leave out the
1051*
Mr. Whitbread
combated the arguments used in support of this amendment, as being totally destitute of foundation, and such as had already been refuted by every argument used upon the subject, either in that house or in any work that had been written upon it. It was an amendment which went absolutely to render the whole bill ineffectual. While the dangers of a refined education were talked of, gentlemen did not seem to recollect, that the education proposed by this bill was only the simple education of reading and writing. Whatever might be the sense of the house upon this amendment, he should own he was anxious such a bill should pass under legislative authority, to shew that parliament had decided that education was a good thing to be given, a proper thing to be obtained. It was a mistake for some members to suppose that this was a compulsory measure. Would the hon. gent. who recommended small schools in preference to large ones, propose to have 20 small schools instead of one large school, by way of limiting the expenses of the undertaking? He had stated, and he would still state, that it was his opinion it would be better to exalt the character of the labourer so as to make him independent of his fellow-creatures for his livelihood, and this was the mode ultimately to reduce the poor's rates. But whether there were poor's rates or not, he should ever contend that the instruction of the poor would be good, and would be one of the greatest boons their country could bestow upon them. When this subject was talked of, he could not help having Scotland always in his mind. What he had read of that country, and the inhabitants thereof, tended strongly to confirm him in the truth of what he had heard stated in that house concerning them.—After some further conversation, this amendment was rejected without a division.
Mr, Pole Carew
said, there were some passages in the preamble which he wished to be altered. He by no means approved the wording as it stood: "whereas, the instruction of youth tends most materially to the promoting of morality and virtue;' and the following passage we did not understand: "whereof we had a most convincing proof, by long experience, in that part of the united kingdom called Scotland." He though there was no proof of
1052*
Mr. Windham
said, he differed with his hon. friend, as to the advantages to be derived to the public from this bill. The preamble mentioned instruction; but what sort of instruction? He by no means thought, that teaching the lower orders to read and write, would prove beneficial to the community at large. Scotland had been referred to as a proof of the great advantages resulting from ins ruction, but he did not think that prove any thing with regard to this country. He thought the character of the Scotch contributed more to obtain reading and wilting, than reading and writing to form the character of the Scotch. He should, therefore, approve of amending the preamble.
Mr. Whitbread
would not consent to alter the preamble, which was the foundation of the bill. He had not expected that his right hon. friend would have been in the house, and he was altogether unprepared for his opposition. He was surprized and grieved that he should lend his great talents to those who seemed to think education an improper thing for the lower orders; but even against his great abilities he would engage to maintain, that education contributed to morality and virtue. He was astonished, that in a mind so enlightened, there should be a speck so dark. if he had not known that his right hon. friend was one of the most enlightened men of the age, he should really have supposed that he had heard another Jack Cade, who had accused lord Say and Sele of corrupting the minds of the people by introducing grammar-schools and printing, and verbs and nouns. When one opposed that for which he himself was remarkable, it was called "the Devil rebuking sin." We heard of mathematicians who thought mathematics the only desirable education—of navigators who preferred navigation to every thing, and so forth; but here was a most remarkable thing—a man of the greatest knowledge himself opposing the communication of knowledge. It was with pain and regret that he heard his right hon. friend, session after session, talking against the diffusion of knowledge. If he did not know him to be a man of most liberal mind, he should suppose he wished to be a monopolizer—a regrater and forestaller of all talents and genius in his own person. For his part, he differed with him most widely on this head, and was for doing every
1053*
Sir T. Turton
said, he had heard the hon. gentleman with a considerable deal of astonishment, when he stated that if he deserted this part of the preamble, he should be deserting the whole superstructure of the bill. As to Scotland, he should ask him, had the house any proof to ascertain that such was the fact, as alleged in that preamble? Had there been any committee appointed, or was there any now to be appointed to investigate this matter, and to convince the house of the propriety of adopting such a clause? The right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) did not appear to object so much to the principle of giving instruction to the people, as to the mode of doing so. Upon this subject he could say, that instruction was gaining ground by very rapid strides through the country, perhaps indeed too rapidly. Was the day labourer, he would ask, happier, for being instructed in reading and writing? Did the house not recollect the mutiny at the Nore? He might venture to state, from the information of an hon. admiral, that upon that occasion the mutineers had daily and nightly meetings on board of the ships; at which meetings they employed themselves in reading the newspapers and other publications; and that this tended much to the consequences which ensued. We are not, said sir Thomas, adverse to instructing the people, but there is a mode, and also an extent, to which their education ought to be carried. My humble opinion is, that this bill will lie as a dead letter upon the statute book, and not one parish out of fifty will ever act upon it. Certainly Scotland does form an exception, with respect to a system of education, but it can bear no analogy to the education of the people of England. The Scotch are a people that do not appear to be educates for remaining at home, they being in general inclined to move beyond their country. Then education would render them totally discontented, if they did not travel into other countries. If they re
1054*
Mr. Macleod
observed, that while he had heard one right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham)stating that he thought the good conduct of the people of Scotland proceeded entirely from their general character, and another hon. gent. ( Mr. Whitbread) arguing that it originated from their general good education, he was of opinion, that both of them might be said to be right. The schools in Scotland were like other schools, except that the masters had a salary fixed by the legislature. They had a maximum and a minimum of stipend, which was paid them by the farmers and the heritors. There were no parish rates in Scotland; but religion, he might venture to say, was the very foundation of the Scotch instruction. Before they were taught to write, they were completely taught to read their Bible. It was not, however, every person who was educated, that succeeded in life; but he never could conceive, after they were so grounded in religious ideas, as even to be able to repeat their bibles, that their reading and writing could be prejudicial to them. The schools were, in general, examined every year by the ministers of the church, or by the heritors. He thought that in England the bishop of the diocese should appoint a certain number of clergymen to examine the schools, and to watch that religion be the first and the last thing that is taught there.
Mr. Wilberforce
opposed, the arguments of the hon. baronet, and was sure, that when he examined his premises more accurately, he would find that they led to conclusions, to which he would by no means be willing to assent. What! was it to be an argument against the cultivation of our faculties, that those faculties might be abused? He contended strongly, against leaving out either the former or the latter part of the preamble, particularly the former, which contained a proposition, namely, "that the instruction of youth tended to morality and virtue," the omission of which, in his opinion, would be disgraceful, as after such repeated discussions it would appear, as if the house of commons had discovered its fallacy. Nor would he be willing to give up the latter part of the preamble, which referred to a country (Scotland) in which the multiplied advantages of education in the improvement of the character of a people, were most apparent. In his eagerness to pre
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Mr. Grattan
supported the bill, and declared that he did not think knowledge too general, even among the higher orders. He dwelt with great praise on the plans of education in Scotland, but contended that Ireland was by no means an illiterate country, especially the south of it; he wished, however, that the benefits of instruction might be more generally diffused.
Mr. P. Carew
then moved an amendment that the allusion in the preamble to Scotland be omitted. A division ensued: For the amendment 28; against it 33; majority 5.—On the motion for the third reading of e bill on Thursday,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
submitted to the hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread), as there was little prospect of the bill's getting through the other house during the present session, if it would not be better to have it re-printed as amended, so that it might be resumed on the commencement of the next session, as a measure which had been approved of in that house, rather than as one which had been thrown out in another place.
Mr. Whitbread
wished the bill to take its chance in the other house. If its progress was stopped in consequence of his majesty thinking it proper to prorogue parliament, that could not be regarded as a rejection, but as an unavoidable delay of the measure, which would again come forward with no worse grace than that which had formerly attended it.—The third reading was accordingly fixed for Thursday.
[DELIVERY OF WRITS.] Mr. Barham
rose to make his promised motion for leave to bring in a bill to amend the present mode of Delivering Writs for the election of members of the house of commons. He stated the inconveniencies of the present mode, and lamented that by refusing to hear the Messenger of the Great Seal at the bar of the house, had prevented him from proving his statements. He declared that at every election the messenger received from the treasury a list of those to whom they recommended that the writs should be sent. He did not peculiarly charge the present administration with this practice; it had been the custom with antecedent administrations. He hoped, however, that now the case was brought before parliament, they would not object
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l.
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[IRISH ARMS BILL.]
The order of the day having been read for the house to resolve itself into a committee on the Irish Arms bill, Mr. Long moved that the Speaker do leave the chair.
Mr. Whitbread
would not oppose the motion for going into a committee, although the bill appeared to him to be so highly objectionable, so calculated to defeat the purposes which it had in view, and so alluring to the enemy to invade Ireland, that he did not think it possible to amend it in such a way as to render him friendly to the measure.
Mr. Herbert
reprobated the bill. He entered into a description of the state of Ireland, to show that the bill was unnecessary, and ámong other things mentioned, that in a Militia regiment, of which he had the honour of being second in command, four-fifths of the privates, half the non-commissioned officers, and six of the commissioned officers were Roman Catholics; but that no unpleasant circumstances whatever had thence arisen.
Mr. Long
observed, that the clauses of this bill had made a part of the former Insurrection bill, and had only been changed for the purpose of mitigation. The bill had been prepared by the late attorney general for Ireland, and, if it was necessary six months ago, nothing had since occurred to make it less necessary.
Mr. Elliot
admitted that the draft of the bill had been prepared by order of the late government, but that the clauses had not been finally determined upon. Many of the clauses required modification, and if his hon. friend had not intimated his intention to propose the amendments he was to move, it would have been his duty to do so. At the same time, he must say that the late government would not hake taken upon themselves the responsibility for the state of Ireland, without the controul of this measure properly modified. For this reason, he should not oppose the speaker's leaving the chair.
Mr. Ponsonby
was not satisfied of the necessity of the measure and should therefore oppose its pi ogress in every stage.—The House then resolved itself into the committee.—A discussion then took place upon the clause for authorising magistrates from time to time to call for an inventory of the arms of persons, whom they may suspect of having arms illegally.
Mr. Whitbread
contended, that this was a clause that gave magistrates the power of
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Mr. Dillon
proposed a further amendment, that no search should be made except between sun rising and sun setting; and if this amendment were to be resisted, he should propose that the magistrate should be present at the search.—A long discussion took place upon this amendment, and upon another, which was proposed to be substituted for it by Mr. Dillon, namely, that the power of search should be confined to the proclaimed districts.
Mr. Sheridan
said, that every modification of the Insurrection bill had only rendered its provisions more severe; and the same spirit seemed to be extended to the present bill. This measure was not only to operate on the disturbed counties, but on the peaceable districts, and was to become the most tyrannical law that ever insulted Ireland. The gentlemen of that country, possessing landed property, who held the magisterial office, were of great respectability; but it was notorious that magistrates, in a different condition of life, were selected for the purpose of carrying into execution such bills; and it was therefore of the highest importance to prevent oppression, from their misapplication.
Colonel Barry
defended the Irish magistracy from the attack of his right hon. friend. If they were deserving of his representation, it must have been the fault of the late chancellor; and he appealed to an hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Ponsonby), whether the late chancellor had not required from the
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Mr. Ponsonby
declared, that the late chancellor had acted from a conscientious conviction that the magistracy wanted to be purged, and was prevented only by the late change.—A division took place on the amendment, when the numbers were, for the amendment, 23; against it, 79. On our re-admission, the remaining clauses were gone through, and some new clauses added, the latter of which limits the duration of the bill to two years, and until the end of the then next session of parliament. After an amendment had been moved by sir J. Newport to limit the bill to one year, and until six weeks after the commencement of the then next session of parliament, which was negatived without a division, the house resumed, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
[MILITIA TRANSFER BILL.]— Lord Castlereagh
moved the order of the day for the third reading of this bill. Mr. Windham, sir R. Williams, and Mr. Calcraft, put it to the noble lord whether he would press the 3d reading of such a bill at such an hour in the morning (one o'clock), when many gentlemen had left the house, under an impression that as the former business had extended to so late an hour, this question would not have been brought on. Lord Castlereagh could not consent to the delay solicited. Sir R. Williams moved, that the house do now adjourn. A division then took place: for the adjournment, 13; against it 71. On the re-admission of strangers, we found
Mr. Windham
on his legs, objecting in strong terms, to the pressing the 3d reading of the bill at that hour, and after so long and teazing a discussion as had taken place for the last eight hours, and conjured the house not to treat the country and the crisis with so indiscreet a levity, as to hurry forward at that late hour the third reading of a bill of such a questionable nature, and fraught with such momentous consequences.
Lord Castlereagh
replied. He defied even the characteristic ingenuity of the right hon. gent. to start a novel idea in any discussion on the present bill, however prolonged. All that could be said by the right hon. gent. had been already exhausted and fully answered.
Mr. Calcraft
vindicated the motives of his right hon. friend in wishing to defer the reading to a more seasonable opportunity, and moved that the house do now adjourn.
1060
The Speaker
objected to putting the question of adjournment again without the intervention of a new subject. He had grounded his opinions on the precedents of the 12th of March, 1771, and 16th March, 1772. It had latterly been the usage of the house; but an usage that he had no scruple in saying was unfounded. He did not think the motion of the hon. member regular, and he should not, therefore, put it.—The question was then put, that the bill be now read a third time; when, after a speech from lord Milton, against the principle of the bill, sir J Newport moved that, instead of the word "now," be inserted the words, "this "day;" upon which amendment the house divided: for the amendment 14; against it 75. Whilst strangers were excluded, we understood that another division took place of 12 and 74, when lord Castlereagh stated, that seeing gentlemen were determined to press amendment after amendment, and keep the house till to-morrow night, he should give them their way.—The third reading was then postponed till this day.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, August 5.
[PROTEST AGAINST THE REJECTION OF THE OFFICES IN REVERSION BILL]
The order of the day being read for taking into consideration one of the standing orders of the house,
Lord Holland
moved that the order for regulating the time of delivering in protests be read; which being read accordingly, his lordship observed that much inconvenience often arose from the early hour at which it was necessary to deliver in protests (at two o'clock p.m. after the debate.) A protest had been entered this day against a proceeding, which took place yesterday (the rejection of the offices in reversion bill), and the hurry with which it was drawn up, made him desirous to make a few alterations in it; with that view he should now move, that time be allowed till he sitting of the house to-morrow, to alter two passages in the second reason of the protest delivered in this day
The Lord Chancellor
reminded the house, that this was an old established order, and that it had been uniformly observed with great strictness. It would therefore be for their lordships to consider whether it was necessary to dispense with it on the present occasion, where it was scarcely possible to add to the force of the reasons, and to the strength of the expressions which already
1061
Lord Holland
had then only to say, that the time, he hoped, would come, not only when the reasons against such a proceeding might be fully expressed, but when the measure itself would be renewed, and carried, to the great satisfaction of the country.— Upon the rejection of this motion, the following protest was entered.
"
Dissentient, because the protesting lords might be anxious to assign as a reason against the rejection of the bill, the assurances which were held out to the public, that the late dissolution of parliament was not suggested by his majesty's advisers for the purpose, nor should in its consequences have the effect of frustrating, or even interrupting the benefits likely to arise from the labours of the committee of finance. Assurances which in our opinion have been violated by the sudden and unexpected rejection of the bill.— (Signed)Vassall Holland, Lauderdale, Cowper, Wentworth Fitzwilliam, Ponsonby, (Imohilly.)"
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, August 5.
[MILITIA TRANSFER BILL]
The order of the day for the third reading of this bill having been read,
Colonel Stanley
took the opportunity of expressing his disapprobation of it; contending that the advantages which the line would derive from it, were by no means equal to the injuries which the militia, that great constitutional force, would sustain. He suspected that the Militia establishment was not a favourite with the present government, and yet they should not forget the zeal and spirit with which the Militia regiments volunteered their services to Ireland on a former occasion. He wished to know, from some of his majesty's ministers, whether it was their intention to go upon this system from time to time, and draft from the militia whenever they wanted recruits for the regular army? If it were so, it would become a serious consideration for the gentlemen who had already made great sacrifices, whether they were to continue long in the militia. For his part, it would be with an aching heart that he should part with those men who had grown perfect soldiers, who had formed an attachment to their officers, and whose officers were attached to them. He also wished to know, whether his majesty's ministers had hitherto given any directions to prevent officers of the line from
1062
Lord Castlereagh
said, he had always stated that he conceived a periodical or annual drafting from the militia, would be destructive to that service, without producing a correspondent service to the army, as the regular ballot would increase very much the price of the bounty. As to the other point, he must say, that no such general orders had been given, and that he should have thought it presumptuous for ministers to advise such general orders, at least until one branch of the legislature should have agreed to the measure. The regular officers, however, who, contrary to their duty, should tamper with militia soldiers in the mean time, would probably gain nothing by acting in that incorrect manner. For example; if any officers, whose regiments were quartered near the Lancashire militia, expected that they would gain the soldiers who should volunteer from that regiment, they would probably find themselves mistaken, and that some regiment at a greater distance might be pointed out for those men to join.
Sir R. Williams
observed, that if the bill had been brought forward early in the session, the sense of the people would have been so strongly expressed to their representatives, that it must have been rejected, and the gentlemen opposite must have lost their places. He blamed the eagerness with which ministers had subverted his right hon. friend's plan, which he contended, was every day improving in excellence; and remonstrated against the stigma thrown upon the militia, which amounted to an accusation that they were not fit to defend their country.
Mr.Bankes
gave his consent to the measure, not because he was blind to the inconveniences that must, in many cases result from it, but because, feeling in common with every member of the house the necessity of increasing the military force of the country, he did not consider himself warranted in opposing the bill for that purpose, proposed by his majesty's ministers, unless he could offer
1063
Lord Folkestone
opposed the bill. He considered, that not only the particular clause objected to, but the whole of the bill was directly hostile to the plan of his right hon. friend, which, he was convinced, was the best means hitherto prepared for the permanent support of our armies.
General Loftus
regretted that so much opposition had been given to this measure, which he maintained was highly expedient. The former Volunteers from the Militia had given to the army some of the best non-commissioned officers, and even adjutants, and he deprecated the wish to lock up men of similar character, from extending their so here of service.
1064
Mr. Windham
put it to the house to decide, who were right and who were wrong, in the circumstances which detained the house for such a length of time that morning. He appealed to what had just passed. Would it have been proper to have read the bill a third time, without having heard the discussion which had that evening taken place? Unquestionably not. The noble lord had declared, that the subject was exhausted: this was a considerable assumption on the part of any individual. If the forms of the house, and the state of the session allowed, plenty of new topics of objections would arise to the noble lord's bill. It was a standing dish. The house might, indeed, cut and come again. Whether any emergency existed, what was its nature, what measures were best calculated to meet it if it existed, whether this was one of those measures; these were considerations which demanded repeated inquiry. He denied that the number of men gained by the ballot, or rather the difference between that number and the number that would otherwise be gained by the regular recruiting, would in any degree compensate for the mischief that must result from the contest of bounties to the regular recruiting. Adverting to his own measure, he observed, that in the first three mouths of the last year, it had produced at the rate of 11,000 men a year; in the next three months, at the rate of 13,000 men; in the next three months, at the rate of 21,000 men; and in the last three months, at the rate of 24,000 men. Was there any reason for supposing, that this last was just the utmost that the measure could do, and that it would not have gone on increasing? When this result was considered, as combined with the effects which must have followed putting the Training bill into activity; the number that a perseverance in its plan must have produced, and regularly produced, would nearly have equalled the number proposed to be raised by the noble lord's plan, raised by an effort which must palsy all future exertions, After having thus maintained the superiority of his system in raising men, he entered into similar statements with respect to the diminution which it had occasioned, and which, if it had been persevered in, it unquestionably would have occasioned, in the number of desertions. The effect of the noble lord's plan on the Militia, had been described by the gentlemen who had spoken on that subject. For years to come, the Militia would not recover the blow of the noble lord. If it was once admitted that
1065
1066
[MILITIA COMPLETION BILL.]
—The Militia Completion bill was read a third time. On the question for passing the bill,
Mr. Pole Carew
urged the propriety of forming a local militia not to be called out except in cases of imminent danger. With this militia he should like to see amalgamated as great a portion as possible of our volunteer force. He should wish the services of the regular militia to be extended to all parts of the empire. With these provisions we should be safe against any possible invasion. Notwithstanding the very general erection of fortifications there might be many exposed points. There should be depots of arms in central situations, in which a trained population would find a rallying point. The enemy, if he could assail us, would bring a force that would require all our means of defence.
Lord Castlereagh
said, it was the fixed determination of his majesty's government to turn their attention to the formation of a large local militia, which was the measure
1067
Mr. Sheridan
had great satisfaction in hearing that it was intended to apply the attention of government to the amelioration of the militia. He hoped his majesty's government would at the same time turn its attention to the means of rendering the ballot less oppressive upon the lower orders of the community.— The bill was then passed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, August 6.
[MINUTES.]
—The Parochial School bill was read a third time and passed.—Mr. R. Dundas observed, that when he had moved for the returns of the East India Company's Accounts, he had stated that it was his intention to move, that they should be referred to a committee of the whole house, with a view to a full discussion of the state of the accounts of the company, within the present session. Circumstances had however, since occurred, which rendered it impossible for him, or the house, to go into these accounts in detail this session. He should therefore be obliged to put off the business to next session. Nevertheless he should feel it his duty to move some Resolutions on the subject, and took that opportunity of giving notice of such motion for to-morrow.
[RELIEF OF BENEFICED CLERGY.]—Mr. Lockhart
moved for leave to bring in a bill to suspend the act of the 35th of the king, so far as it relates to the voidance of Benefices held by clergymen, who may have subsequently accepted curacies augmented from queen Anne's bounty. The ground on which he rested his motion was, that many clergymen, not aware of the clause in that bill, which rendered benefices void in case the incumbents accepted augmented cures, had by accepting such curacies subjected themselves inadvertently and ignorantly to the penalty of that act. The consequence was, that the patrons of the benefices were threatening them with new presentations, and that they held such benefices wholly at the mercy of such patrons. His bill was
1068
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
would have great doubt of the propriety of the bill proposed by the hon. member, if it was to alter the law as it now stood, or to divest rights already vested by law. But as the bill was only to suspend the operation of the law now in force, till the subject might be more fully considered next session, he was not aware of any material objection to it.—Leave was then given.
[ELECTION RECOGNIZANCE BILL.]—Mr. Dent
moved for leave to bring in a bill for better regulating Recognizances entered into upon Petitions on Controverted Elections. The 26th of the king, he stated, had not provided an adequate remedy against vexatious petitions. It required the principal in a petition to enter into a recognizance of £200 and each of the sureties into one of £100; but though it required the sureties to give in their residence, it did not require that of the principal, so that there was generally much difficulty to find him in the event of the recognizances being forfeited. It was to obviate this difficulty, and to discourage vexatious petitions, that he proposed to bring in his bill, which, when printed, he should suffer to lie over till next session. One of the provisions of the bill would be to require of the petitioner to deposit £200 with the barons of the exchequer, which sum would be to be returned, if the petition should not be declared frivolous, or, if it should, to be disposed of, one half to the sitting member, the other to his majesty. That some such provision was necessary, would appear from what had happened in the case of the borough he represented. There had been no contest there, and yet a petition had been maliciously presented against his return which had been signed by 5 persons, not one of whom was at that time within 200 miles of the place. One was a barber, another a common porter, a third a day-labourer, and a fourth a jack-ass driver, and all had been bribed to give their signatures to the petition. The necessity of the measure would also be obvious from the circumstance, that of the 54 petitions which had been presented in the last parliament, 18 had been abandoned without any recognizances having been
1069
Mr. Rose
could not help thinking that some regulation was necessary upon this subject. The practice of presenting vexatious petitions had become too frequent, and it was not proper that such libels upon the sitting members should be permitted. He hoped his hon. friend would take up the bill next session, when he assured him of his cordial support.—The bill was then brought in and read a first time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, August 7.
[EAST INDIA BUDGET.]—Mr. R. Dundas
rose, pursuant to notice, to move a resolution pledging the house to take into consideration early in the next session, the Accounts relative to the Revenue Charges and Commercial Concerns of the East India Company, presented on the 10th and 18th June last, commonly called, the Accounts of the East India Budget. It would be impossible in the present session to give to this subject the ample consideration to which it was entitled, and therefore he thought it better to postpone the statement and discussion till the next session. After some observations from Mr. Creevey, who reserved to himself the right of going into farther particulars than the mere East India Accounts, commonly called the India Budget, the resolutions were agreed to.—On the motion of Mr. Dundas several additional papers, illustrative of the conduct of the government of India towards the Polygars were ordered, with the design of giving the fullest and fairest view of the Polygar question.
Mr. Creevey
stated, that when the Polygar question should come to be discussed, he meant to contend that the conduct of the British government to the Polygars had been the cause of the mutiny at Vellore; one of the regiments concerned, the second battalion of the 23d native infantry having been recruited in the Polygar country. On the promise of the right hon. gent. opposite to bring forward such accounts as had been, or should be received on that subject, and from a wish to await the arrival of those most materially interested in the transaction, he should not now offer the motion of which he had given notice for this day. He however gave notice, that early in the ensuing session, he should move that there be laid before the house copies of all letters written by marquis Cornwallis on the subject of the
1070
[ASSESSED TAXES BILL.]—The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulating the collection of the Assessed Taxes. As the bill was to lie over for consideration till the next session, he did not think it necessary to trouble the house, by entering into its details. One particular alteration in the existing practice he thought it necessary to notice. This was to divide the duties of the commissioners, and transfer them, so far as they were ministerial, to the subordinate officers. With respect to the collection of the taxes, it was intended, as no man could object to the payment of the taxes incident to the return he should give in, to authorise the collection of the taxes to that amount immediately leaving the taxes upon surcharges to abide the decisions upon the questions arising out of them. There was at present this evil, that the collection of the taxes, so far as they were certain and unquestionable, as they were on the returns made by the individuals taxed, was suspended, till the validity of the surcharges, which-were uncertain, was decided. He thought it necessary to point out this material alteration to particular attention, preparatory to the further consideration in the ensuing session.
Mr. Barham
wished a remedy could be provided for the great grievances that arose out of surcharges. The difficulty of finding redress in cases of vexatious surcharge was often very great, and sometimes it amounted to an absolute impossibility. He had himself obtained redress of such surcharges made upon him, but it was with great difficulty; and in some similar instances he knew several other persons to have totally failed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
believed, that the commissioners of taxes did every thing in their power to a facility of decision in cases of appeals on surcharge, and redress in cases of vexatious surcharge; but if any means of greater facility on these heads could be pointed out, he should be happy to give his aid in carrying it into effect.
Mr. W Smith
was afraid that the time was fast approaching when the officers in that department would necessarily be filled by men in the pay of government. He did not throw this Out invidiously, but certainly the abuses of the present mode of estimating and collecting the property tax was liable to and might ultimately render the tax itself not
1071
Mr. Huskisson
said, it was not intended to take away the powers now exercised by the commissioners; but merely to authorise the collection of the undisputed duties on the returns originally made, without awaiting the decision of the commissioners on the duties contested in the way of surcharge on appeal. It was impossible to obtain the supervision which was frequently necessary without allowing some interest to the person who detected the fraud; but when the surcharge was groundless the commissioners were always ready to afford relief, and when it was vexatious, to inflict punishment.
Mr. P. Moore
was glad to hear that the bill was to be printed, so that members might be able to peruse it before next session. He hoped, however, that while pains were taken to make people understand the law by which they were taxed, they would also find that the payment of taxes was made easier to them. Of what utility, he would ask, were those numerous reports which were laid before the house, of every kind, if they were not acted upon for the public benefit? He hoped therefore that ministers would see to these things, before next session. As the representative of a large industrious city, he could say for his constituents, that they were ready to make any sacrifices for the public good, and to support their share in its splendour; yet they expected economy in the disposition of the national money, and that their distresses might be lessened. If these economical reports were heaped on the table without use, he should find it his duty to tell ministers that he would vote smaller supplies than he otherwise might have intended, were more frugality and attention shewn.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
entirely agreed with the hon. gent. as to the necessity of economy at the present crisis, and a cautious expenditure of the public money. At the same time, he could not approve of the vague and incautious manner in which the hon. gent. had thought proper to fling out his charges. The remarks were of a nature so general and indefinite, that he did not know how to reply to them. If the hon. gent. had any thing definite to state in public or private, he should feel himself much obliged to the hon. gent. for such communi-
1072
Mr. P. Moore
said in explanation, that he alluded to the different reports in the various departments, civil, military, and marine, whereby it was obvious that there might be a saving by a more economical management in each, of the public money, to an amount of between five and ten millions annually.
Sir T. Turton
put it to his majesty's ministers, to consider the necessity and the means of affording a more immediate relief to the persons entitled to exemptions under the income tax: these persons were at present obliged to pay the full amount of the tax in the first instance, and they found it extremely difficult afterwards to obtain the relief allowed to them.
Mr. Whitbread
stated, that he, as well as the hon. baronet, had received complaints of very severe hardships, in the manner in which the income tax was levied on the lower classes. He was sure if his noble friend (lord H. Petty) had continued in office, the necessary relief would have been afforded to the persons so pressed. He hoped the hon. gentlemen opposite would consider of the means of affording them some alleviation.
Dr. Laurence
lamented, that in proportion as the property tax had been made more burthensome, the means of relief had been made more difficult in the cases in which no law could presume to withhold it.
Lord H. Petty
stated it to have been his desire and intention, that every real grievance under the property tax, as it had been increased and regulated by him, should be satisfactorily redressed; but he thought it, in the first instance, desirable, that the whole of the provisions should have a fair trial; for it was only such a trial that could afford proof of the reality, or the futility, of the objections which were so universally made. He was desirous, now that a fair trial had been afforded, to give all proper relief, but he could assure the house, that much difficulty would be felt, when the means of giving that relief consistently with the produce of the tax should came to be considered.—The motion for leave to bring in the bill was then agreed to.
[OFFICES IN REVERSION.]—Mr. Bankes
1073
in consequence of the notice he had given, rose to submit a motion, which he thought necessary as a preliminary step towards any proceeding which the house should think proper to adopt, with respect to the measure founded on a resolution of that house, which had been rejected in the other. The only way of bringing the rejection of the bill to prevent grants of Offices in Reversion in the upper house, before the view of this house, would be to appoint a committee to inspect the lords' Journals, as to what had been done there with respect to that bill. That Committee might report to-morrow, and on the report he should found a motion which be would submit to the house on Monday. He accordingly moved, "that a committee be appointed to inspect the Journals of the house of lords, with relation to the bill sent from this house to the lords, intituled, An Act to prohibit the granting of Offices in Reversion, or for joint lives, with benefit of survivorship; and to make report thereof to the house." A committee was appointed accordingly.
[CONSOLIDATED FUND BILL—GENERAL STATE OF AFFAIRS.]
—On the order of the day for the third reading of the Consolidated Fund bill,
Mr. Whitbread
rose and observed, that as it seemed evident the session was about to close, he thought it his duty to make two or three remarks on the extraordinary situation of the country, at a period when ministers were about to prorogue parliament. The house had before them several notices of motions upon subjects of the greatest importance. The bills for the defence of the country were just gone up to the other house to be discussed there; and they had heard speeches from a noble lord (Castlereagh), stating that there were other measures necessary in his opinion, but which the session would be too short to enable him to introduce. A notice had also been given of a motion to consider the present trying situation of the West India planters, and a motion had been made to inspect the Lords' Journals, for the purpose of taking an important subject into consideration. He knew that we had just sent out a very large expedition, which it was supposed had not gone to any great distance, and from which, therefore, intelligence, it was to be presumed, might very soon be expected; and its results would be most important to the country, whether successful or otherwise. He knew also that a treaty had been concluded between Prussia, one of our allies, and France,
1074
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
could not answer as to the time that knight elapse before parliament would be called together again: the first prorogation would he but for a short time, the subsequent prorogations would also be but for short periods, so as to afford a facility of early assemblage, if the exigency of affairs should require. The inconveniences with which a longer attendance of the members would be attended at the present season, was an irresistible reason for proroguing as soon as the state of public business would admit: along with the facility afforded by short prorogations from time to time to the assembling of parliament as soon as any particular occasion should render it necessary, the crown possessed the power of calling it together at any time at a fort night's notice.
Lord H. Petty
after the extraordinary vote of credit which had passed the house at an
1075
1076
Lord Castlereagh
was glad that the noble lord had confirmed what he had stated on a former night, so far as that a promise of aid had been held out to Sweden, and that such aid was to have been in cavalry. He did not understand what the noble lord meant, when he asserted that the contingency in which the aid was to have been given, had not occurred. Sweden certainly did think, that the contingency had occurred, and that the occasion was so far gone by, without the fulfilment of our engagement, that material injury had been suffered in consequence. Russia and Prussia also complained, that their interests had suffered materially from the neglect of sending the aid that had been promised. Though the cavalry was the most material part, infantry also was expected. But what entirely wrought the condem-
1077
Mr. Windham
called upon the house to observe the different statements of the hon. gentlemen when they made their first attack, and afterwards when they were pressed by facts. He appealed to the house, whether the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Secretary Canning) had not on a former night asserted, that when he came into office he was assailed by pressing solicitations and remonstrances from every quarter for military aid, the promise of which had been held forth. Now, it appeared that such a promise had been held forth to Sweden alone, and even that was incidental. It might be said, to be sure, that the remaining allied powers were cramped in their operations, in consequence of this aid being withheld from Sweden, and of that power being disabled from creating the intended diversion. That, perhaps, might literally make good the accusation brought by the right hon. gent.; but it was very far indeed from making it good in the spirit in which it had been urged by the right hon. gent. No promise had been made and forfeited. The contingency upon which the aid was to have been given, had not in his opinion, and that of his friends, occurred. The other powers, according to the statement of the right hon. secretary, asserted it did take place. In this contradiction, he should not think it wise to rely on the assertion of those who were interested in receiving the aid. The fairest standard would be to ask the right hon. gent. himself, whether, on the review of the papers in his office, such expectations were well founded? No attention was to be paid to the insinuations of neglected expectations and forfeited pledges, unless they took upon themselves to say, that in their own opinion, such expectations were directly held forth; otherwise he must contend, without allowing for the prejudice which he might feel, that the statement of his noble friend (lord Howick) was as much to be relied on as that of any other minister foreign or domestic. With respect to the charge of being unprepared for the contingency, if it had taken place, it was to be considered, that its approach would have been observed; for it was not to be supposed his majesty's late ministers would have suffered it to come by
1078
Mr. Secretary Canning
was at a loss to conceive what advantage the right hon. gentlemen opposite proposed to derive from the renewal of this discussion. He was still more surprised to find that they conceived they had derived advantages from it. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) could not assert any difference on his part from his former statement, for he had not yet spoken. He did say that great expectations of pecuniary and military aid from us were entertained by the allied powers. The expectations held out might have been excited, either by communications to his majesty's ministers here, to the ministers of the allied powers to his majesty's court, or they might be communicated by our resident ministers at the courts of the allied powers, in their conferences with the ministers of those powers. The course of the Foreign Office combined these two modes of transacting business. The hon. gentlemen opposite first threw out a general challenge to alledge any one particle of promise of aid, and then, when the promise to Sweden was cited, the noble lord opposite came down and confirmed the fact, and the rt. hon. gent. opposite triumphed in the conformation. He had now to re-state the fact with the high additional authority of the noble lord. The vague nature of a contingency, which one power could consider as arrived, and another as not arrived, warranted him in the argu-
1079
Mr. Windham
in explanation, said, he spoke particularly of transport tonnage immediately disposable for service, of which the late government had left more than it had received. No coppered ships had been refused; none had been discharged. He admitted that aid to Sweden might have Nerved Russia and Prussia. But what he complained of was the difference in the statements. The contingency could not come on without notice of its approach, unless the late ministers should have been surprised, as the present ministers admitted they were, by the events on the continent.
Dr. Laurence
defended the late ministers against the charge of holding forth expectations, and failing to fulfil them. If the expectations were held forth by our ministers to the court of Sweden, or our ministers to the other sovereigns, where were the instructions they had to do so? It was desirable that all the papers relating to the
1080
Mr. Secretary Canning
asserted, that by the confession of the hon. gentlemen opposite, expectations had been entertained by the continental powers of assistance from this country. He had not admitted that the contingency had not arisen. It might be his opinion that it had arisen, but he put it hypothetically, whether it had or not, the late ministers had made no preparations for it. If, therefore, the contingency had arisen, they did not keep themselves in such a situation as to enable them to fulfil their promises.
Mr. Windham
in explanation, contended that no expectations had been held out, even upon the sheaving of the other side, which had not been performed. What then became of the exaggerated expectations and disappointments about which so much had been said?
Sir T. Turton
observed, that if an additional sum was wanting, it might be in contemplation of a possible dispute with America, and insisted that if this country should be forced to a war with America, the late ministers had by their lenity, and too strong a bias for conciliation, given occasion to it, since they had treated with a pistol at their breasts. They ought to have insisted, in the first instance, that the Non-importation act should be repealed. If we should have a war with America, then, it was owing to their own concessions, and how could they oppose a grant which had arisen out of their own misconduct? Another reason for the enlarged credit might be the expences of the volunteer force. He hoped that this force would be put upon a more effective footing; that measures would be adoped for their better organization and discipline. We could not do without them, and it was requisite that we should have them in as perfect a state as possible. The country looked for this—the volunteers themselves looked for it, and what he meant was some further authority to the officers, and encouragement to the men. He also thought the Training bill ought to be put in execution with all possible dispatch, for he considered the object of that bill as a sort of basket in a stage-coach. It had been said on the other side, that insinuations had been thrown out against them. Of all things that he had heard from ministers against their predecessors, it had been most unlike insinuation,
1081
Mr. Hibbert
adverted to the outcry that had been raised some time ago about the want of employment for our shipping, which he considered as inconsistent with the present deliberations of ministers. They now seemed to intimate that it was impossible to procure shipping for a three months voyage at a short warning. Was this consistent with their former assertions? With regard to the promises that were said to be made to foreign powers, it appeared now that they had dwindled down to expectations on the part of our allies on the continent. This statement of expectations entertained on the other side of the water, were certainly very far from supporting the allegation of promises made on a former occasion.
Mr. Rose
maintained, that the statement of the ship owners, with respect to the shipping interest, had been perfectly correct, and that it was not inconsistent with the allegations, that transports could not be procured at a moment's warning. What his noble friend had said was, that there was no
1082
Mr. Hibbert
in explanation said, that what he had stated was, that it had been asserted that promises had been made to our allies, and that these promises had now dwindled down to expectations, on one side, however unreasonable these expectations might be.
The Hon. J. W. Ward
adverted to what had been said by the hon. baronet under the gallery, respecting insinuations. Certainly, if it was asserted that expectations had been clearly held out of assistance upon certain contingencies, and these contingencies had happened and no assistance had been sent, the matter became a serious and heavy charge. The late ministers had unquestionably been guilty of a crime against this country and against Europe. But in this case, instead of bringing forward these things for the sake of adorning a speech, instead of introducing them in order to turn a period, a distinct motion ought to have been made on the subject, that the house might have an opportunity of passing sentence, upon a deliberate investigation of the affair and clear itself both to the country and to Europe. This was what he called upon ministers to do if they had any grounds for the charge.
Mr. W. Smith
observed, that the hon. bart. had been most unfortunate in alluding to America, while he was recommending unanimity; every word upon that subject was to be carefully avoided at present, and any allusion to it was most imprudent and dangerous. Ministers had certainly a most difficult and important task imposed upon them in this affair, and any allusions to the lenient proceedings of the late government, were very much out of time. He thought that the Training bill ought to be put in immediate execution, and all the measures for putting us in a proper state of defence forwarded without a moment's delay. He perfectly agreed in what had been said by the hon. bart. respecting the advantages of peace, and hoped that his opinions on that point would have the weight which they deserved.—The bill was then passed. On the question as to the title of the bill,
Mr Whitbread
observed, that the charges preferred by the right hon. secretary (Mr.
1083
1084
Mr. Secretary Canning
explained what he had said the other evening on the subject of the Russian loan. A noble lord opposite (lord H. Petty) had declared his objection to such a measure in very strong terms, and all that he had stated was, that he was not so averse from it as the noble lord. Now, with respect to bringing the subjects which the hon. gent. had detailed in a distinct shape before parliament, for the purpose of calling for their judgment, he wished to know how they were to be brought forward. Were the gentlemen opposite to impute gross misconduct to his majesty's minister, by contrasting their proceedings with those of their predecessors, and were his majesty's ministers to be precluded from stating in defence of themselves their opinion of the proceedings of their predecessors, unless they originated a charge against them? He denied this. Besides, according to the hon. gent's. statement, these charges would amount to a solemn accusation of crime. All that had been said by him was, that the late government, though acting to the best of their judgment, had not acted for the benefit of the country. This had been extorted from his majesty's ministers in their own defence, and they were now called upon to make it the ground of a charge. If the exertions of the present ministers had been too late, they were bound to state that it was, because their predecessors had left them without the means of making earlier efforts.
Mr. Whitbread
contended that the right hon. gent. had distinctly charged the late administation not with mere want of ability, but with a criminal violation of promise.
Mr. Windham
observed, that when ministers made a charge, they ought to follow it up, because the documents were in their possession, and they could plead no excuse, except it was that the production of these documents would be attended with manifest injury to the interests of the country. Secrecy on this account might certainly be necessary; but he believed there was no such obstacle in the way in the present instance, nor, indeed, was any such alledged. The late ministers were ready to support their charge; if the present ones by way of answer to that, brought forward another charge, they ought to make it good, otherwise the house ought certainly to consider it as not made. He expected the noble lord would move for an
1085
Lord Castlereagh
observed, that the present discussion came with a very bad grace from an hon. gent. who had charged his majesty's ministers on a former occasion, with not having sooner sent to Sweden, or other parts of the continent, the force which was then embarking. Could ministers do less than state, that were their impressions ever so strong of the necessity of the measure, they had been precluded from an earlier recurrence to it, by the total neglect of their predecessors? No specific charge had been made, but it had been merely stated, that the late ministers were culpable in allowing expectations to grow up, and that one power (Sweden) had complained of the disappointment of those expectations. Adverting to the question of transports, he observed, that the interval between the wish to obtain transports, and the power of obtaining them, was much greater than what seemed generally to be imagined. Horse transports, in particular, could not be expected to be in the Downs in less than three weeks after the tenders had been accepted, and every one accustomed to these subjects, knew the tardiness with which those tenders were made. He thought the policy of the late government fundamentally wrong, that they had made up their minds to afford no assistance to the continental powers, and therefore, that they had managed badly to inspire expectations of assistance.
Lord H. Petty
observed, that it now appeared that general promises had been first alledged; then a particular charge of a breach of engagement was made, and lastly the matter came round again to general promise. This was the dance that ministers led the house, all the while refusing the documents. The right hon. gent. had said that he had a right to retort on the late government. The best way, however, of answering charges was to refute them instead of retorting on others. But, granting his claim of retorting, he still contended that when the right hon. gent. alledged that the late ministers had adopted a particular line of policy, and had not acted up to it, he ought to be prepared with proof to make good his charge. When charges were brought against ministers, they had the means in their hands of refuting them if they could. When charges were made against them, they could only call upon the ministers to produce the
1086
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it was clear that the fact was admitted, that ail expectation had been raised, at least in Sweden, of military aid from this country in cavalry, on certain contingencies. Whether or not those contingencies had occurred was a matter of opinion, and was not a subject on which a criminal charge could be preferred. Suppose the contingency had been that assistance would be afforded in case the allies were placed in such a situation as to be enabled to make a forward movement against the enemy. Was not this situation a matter of opinion? and might not one power assert, while another denied its existence? Whatever difference of opinion therefore there might be as to the policy of the late government, there certainly was no ground for a distinct criminal charge.
Lord Folkestone
observed, that the question was, whether a crime had been alledged, and whether the documents to prove it were produced? Ministers stated the crime, and refused to produce the documents. This was the ground of complaint. They alledged a clear fact that expectations had been raised. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) was of opinion, that the contingency had happened. In such a case it was neither honest nor candid to refuse to bring the matter to the proof.—The title of the bill was then read and agreed to. After which,
Lord Castlereagh
moved for accounts of the number of transports of different descriptions in the service of government at the time the late ministers came into office, and at the time they went out.—Ordered.
[IRISH ARMS BILL.]
On the order of the day that the Irish Arms bill be now read a third time,
Lord Milton
said he could not agree without any inquiry into the state of Ireland, to give his assent to the passing of such an arbitrary act as this. At the time of the union, the Irish were promised a full and fair participation of the rights of Englishmen; at that moment, after a lapse of 7
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Mr. Lushington
expressed his disapprobation of the measure, although he was sorry to learn, from what information he had received, that a necessity for it existed, and he particularly relied in this respect on the eloquent speech of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Grattan), who was so well acquainted with Ireland, and concerned for its interests. But he wished the bill had received sundry amendments, particularly for preventing magistrates, from breaking into dwelling-houses Of suspected persons by night; he also wished the duration of the bill to have been limited to one year. Upon the whole, it was a bill to which he felt compelled to give an unwilling assent.
Mr. P. Moore
thought, that in a free country like England, such an act as this should never be passed but from extreme necessity. It had been said, that this act was justified by necessity; but there was no evidence in proof of it, except the opinion of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Grattan), which, however respectable that gentleman might be, he could not suffer to sway him, nor was he able to bring his conscience to adopt so arbitrary a measure on such authority. Such a corroding act as this must prove highly injurious in its consequences, by irritating and lacerating the feelings of the Irish people; and if there was a necessity for it, the fact was, it did not go far enough. For these reasons, he would move as an amendment, "that it be read a third time that day 3 months."
Mr. Whitbread
apologized to the house for his again stating to them what were his opinions upon this measure. The importance of the subject, however, made it his duty to state in this, as well as in former stages, what was the result of his inquiry and deliberation upon a question of such magnitude. In the first place then, deferring as he did to the opinion of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Grattan), whose sentiments he always held in the highest estimation, he must confess that there was very high authority indeed in favour of the proposition, that some such measure ought to be adopted. But even then there was something which operated in his favour. That right hon. gent. whose opinion, it was admitted on all sides, carried such great weight and influence with it, did not say that he agreed to the bill with all its deformities; he objected to many parts of it; he only said, that rather than lose the measure
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Sir Arthur Piggott
said he would beg leave, as shortly as possible, to give his reasons for dissenting from this bill. It was an act of the most arbitrary end oppressive nature, brought forward without any inquiry into the state of Ireland, without any evidence laid before the house as to the necessity of it; and it was altogether so unconstitutional an act, that nothing but extreme and most imperious necessity could possibly justify it. It did not depend on the responsibility of the lord lieutenant and council, nor on the authority of the established courts of
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Mr. Dillon
stated, that it fell within his own knowledge, that during the administration of the duke of Bedford, some hot headed magistrates had proclaimed a district contrary to law. They afterwards applied to the lord lieutenant to sanction their proceeding; he refused to do so, and the usual operation of the law was found to be sufficient for the preservation of public tranquillity. To such men it was not his inclination to confide such powers as were not found necessary in the administration of lord Hardwicke, and such as the duke of Bedford refused to sanction. It was the wish of lord Kilwarden, even in his dying moments, that the law should not be violated on his account. Ministers were well aware that by the Bill of Rights every British subject had a right to bear arms, and if unnecessary infractions of the best articles of the constitution were made as a matter of course almost, ministers might expect that some portion of the people of that country would declare their sentiments in the most open manner against such proceedings; they might expect, not that a revolution founded on Agrarian principles would be attempted, but that the higher class of the people would be roused, and that they would petition against the union. On the intended motion of Mr. Sheridan he should deliver his sentiments more fully; in the mean while however, he thought it his duty to oppose the bill now before the house.
Mr. Craig
defended Ireland from the unjust imputations against its loyalty and allegiance. He was convinced that the true policy in governing Ireland was to extend to its people the full participation of constitutional rights. He declared his conviction of the injustice and impolicy of the present bill, and strongly supported the amendment.
Mr. Ponsonby
was a decided enemy to the bill. He hoped some amendment would have been admitted to render it less unpalatable, but he was severely disappointed. He thanked his right hon. and learned friend (sir A. Piggott) for his eloquent speech against the bill, in every word of which he agreed; and could only express his astonishment to find his majesty's ministers supporting such a measure upon hear say, and without a tittle of evidence, while at this moment the assizes of the different counties in Ireland were proceeding, and when the judges were every where unanimous in stating the tranquil state of that country, especially Wexford and Tipperary, the two most suspected counties, and where there
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Mr. Sheridan
expressed his astonishment at hearing so very general a call of question! question! as if gentlemen were in a hurry to pass a bill so alarming to the liberties of Ireland. He should not enter upon the affairs of that country at present, as he should have a more favourable opportunity, on the motion he should have the honour of proposing to the house on Monday. He did not expect, however, that on a measure like this for driving from the pale of the constitution the whole people of Ireland, his majesty's ministers would sit mute, without condescending to notice any of the arguments so eloquently and forcibly put against this bill. If ever he saw the case of Ireland treated with outrage and insult, it was upon the present occasion, when the king's ministers were forcing upon that country, a law subversive of all civil liberty, and exposing the habitation of every man in Ireland to the nocturnal intrusion of any two magistrates, or their underlings, on pretence of searching for arms, without any controul from the executive government. The eloquent speech of his right hon and learned friend (sir A. Piggott) was unanswerable. He gloried in the whole tenour of his arguments, and he was proud to see on that side of the house an attorney-general and solicitor-general of the last administration, stand forth as advocates for the cause of Ireland, who preferred government by Law to a government by arbitrary power and military execution, and who refused to vote away the liberties of a brave and honourable people, without any other semblance of necessity than the mere ipse dixit of the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, and his legal friends the attorney and solicitor-generals. And what was the testimony of those right hon. gentlemen? Why, that none of them knew any thing about Ireland, but that they understood from good authority that there was a disposition to insurrection there. Who told them so? Did they learn it by any official document from the duke of Richmond? or was it only from the whispers of those hon. gentlemen from that side the water, who wished to feed their credulity? For gentlemen in their stations, to say they
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Lord H. Petty
then rose to move an amendment in the bill, by shortening the duration of it. He thought the house ought to be a jealous of such a bill as of the
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought that it was necessary to say but little, when it was considered how fully both those bills had been already discussed. It would certainly be in the power of parliament to repeal this bill next year, if they thought it necessary; but he thought unnecessary discussion on this subject might be of an irritating nature, and could not possibly do any good.
Mr. Sheridan
was rejoiced, that he had at length heard a few words from one of the hon. gentlemen on the other side. When they had before refused to argue the subject, on the ground of their ignorance, he gave them some credit for either modesty or candour. His noble friend had, however, obliged the rt. hon. gent. to say something. These discussions on the state of Ireland might appear to the gentlemen on the other side of the house, as irritating questions; they however appeared to him questions that ought not to be blinked, but that it was necessary to discuss fairly. He would tell the right hon. gent., that Ireland ought to be the constant subject of his thoughts, and of discussion in that house. The present bill Was a bill for suspending the liberties and the constitution of Ireland; and to prevent irritating discussions, as they were called, it was proposed, in the first instance, that the bill should be continued for 3 years. He could not see any argument that could be adduced in favour of continuing the bill for that time, that would not apply as well to the making it eternal. The right hon. gent. had said, that the house could repeal it next year, if they thought proper. This was most undoubtedly true, and so they could have done if the act had been at once made perpetual; but there was very little reason expect that it would be repealed before
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Mr. W Elliot
(late Secretary for Ireland)
admitted the necessity of this measure, but thought the period of duration quite another, question, and that parliament ought to show an anxiety to keep as much as possible within the limits of that necessity. He would, therefore, support the amendment, and would strongly advise gentlemen on the other side to accede to it. The right hon. gent. earnestly recommended the adoption of conciliatory measures with regard to Ireland. He deprecated the language which he had heard from a high authority in that house, and in another assembly also, with respect to the Catholics; for he considered such language extremely rash and imprudent, to say the least of it; as it would go to close the expectations, to put an end to the hopes of the Catholic body. When gentlemen talked of settling the question, what did they mean? Did they mean to say to a population growing in numbers, wealth, and consequence—"we will never attend to your wishes, we will never comply with your desires?" But some gentlemen undertook to say, that the Catholic Question was of no consequence to this population. The contrary, however, was as true as nature was true to herself. What! that the landed and commercial interests, which had such extensive and just influence among the Catholic body, that the gentlemen of the bar, did not aspire to those privileges and distinctions, from which they were at present excluded! The idea Was quite preposterous. He could assure the house that gentlemen were mistaken who supposed that all those feelings did not prevail among the Catholics, which strongly bind men to the state. For the desire of participating, in those privileges which the state granted, was a strong bond of connection. He, of course, disliked, and would wish to discountenance the doctrine, that the prospect should be removed, which served to
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Mr. Wilberforce
felt much satisfaction in hearing the objects which the right hon. gent. had just stated, and particularly with regard to tythes, in which it a change could be effected without injury to the interests of the established clergy, it was on all hands admitted to be extremely desirable. The hon. member expressed his wish that the gentlemen of Ireland would themselves devote their attention to a consideration of the means by which the state of the Irish people might be amended. For he could not help thinking that among that people, he meant the peasantry particularly, there was a difference not only in the civil condition, if he might so express himself, but in the political character, from that which appeared among the same classes in this country, and the gentlemen of Ireland might be most competent to judge of the fact, and to prepare the means of improving their countrymen.
Mr. Windham
was glad to hear his right hon. friend state the objects which the late administration had in view, for the benefit of Ireland; and to those objects he wished particularly to point the attention of the house. So far from considering this bill and the Insurrection bill as twins, he thought them materially different. With respect to the consequence to be apprehended from the frequent discussion of measures of this nature, and which the right hon. gent. on the opposite side deprecated, he for himself thought, that as much irritation might be produced by silence as by discussion—nay, more; and so he apprehended from the silence of ministers upon this occasion. The feelings of the people of Ireland must be grated to find it resolved to continue the duration of such a bill as this beyond a reasonable time, without any statement, and perhaps without the existence of necessity. For,
1098
List of the Minority
Barham, J. F.
Milton, lord
Bouveric, E.
Petty, lord H.
Bernard. T.
Pigott, sir A.
Brand, T.
Parry, L. P. J.
Calcraft, J.
Ponsonby, J.
Craig, J.
Romilly, Sir S.
Cavendish, W.
Russell, lord W.
Cuthbert, J. R.
Sheridan, R. B.
Dillon, H. A.
Somerville, sir M.
Dundas, W.
Smith, W.
Elliot, W.
Sharpe, R.
Hibbert, G.
Talbot, R.
Jervoise, J. C.
Windham, W.
Lamb, W.
Ward. J. W.
Lubbock, sir J.
Whitbread, S.
Millar, sir T.
Tellers.
Moore, P.
Creevey, T.
Martin, H.
Dawson, R.
Maxwell, W.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, August 8.
[PUBLICANS' LICENSE BILL.] Mr Sheridan
moved the second reading of this bill. He could adduce, he said, instances of the most atrocious oppression practised by the magistrates on individuals of this trade; he did not say designedly, but from carelessness and inattention. All that he wished was, that, when a publican was charged with an act which was to be esteemed sufficient to deprive him of his license, he should be informed of the nature of the crime imputed to him, and should be heard in his defence not that he and his family should be deprived of their livelihood by a whisper. This, he maintained, was not a situation in which an Englishman should be placed. It had, he believed, been objected against him, that this was the mode he had taken of canvassing Westminster. How truly this was alledged might be gathered from this simple fact, that one of the first measures moved by him in parliament was of a similar nature. Shortly after the riots in the year 1780, he
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he could only regret that the right hon. gent. had not brought not only the present bill but the whole of his measure sooner before the house. As he had it in full contemplation from the year 1780 down to the year 1784, he must regret that he should have allowed it to remain a blank from that period down to the election in 1807, when he revived it for the first time on the Hustings in Covent Garden; still more he must regret that he had been so late in the session in bringing it into the house. If the principle of the bill, however, was to be supported by cases, the plan would have been to move fora committee to investigate them, and to make the report of the committee the foundation of the bill. As matters stood there was no evidence to go on, and it would be unfair to make Middlesex and
1102
Mr. Rose
thought some regulation necessary upon this subject, and bore testimony to the character of the publicans. From his connection with the revenue business, he was enabled to say, that there was not a more meritorious class of men than the publicans.
Mr. D. Giddy
vindicated the character of the magistracy in the country, who were, as far as his acquaintance extended, particularly in Cornwall, entitled to the utmost respect. The evils arising from the proprietorship of public houses being vested in the brewers, he acknowledged to be great, but he could not conceive any legislative remedy that could apply to it.
Mr. Peter Moore
thought the grounds of objection stated by the chancellor of the exchequer might be obviated in a committee, where all the cases cited by his right hon. friend might, with many others, equally strong, be fully substantiated. From having had an opportunity of examining these cases, he could say that such instances of oppression had occurred under the existing law, as would revolt the feelings of the house, and as would excite its astonishment, that such a law had been so long suffered to continue in operation. However, as more inquiry seemed to be required upon this subject, and as gentlemen seemed to think the general extension of the principle desirable, he would recommend to his right hon. friend to withdraw the bill, rather than let it go to a division, lest its rejection should appear to imply that to which he was glad to perceive no gentleman was disposed, namely, an absolute opposition to the principle of the measure.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
conceived a committee of inquiry necessary previous to the introduction of a bill of this nature, because it professed to rest upon particular cases; but if the measure were founded upon a general principle, comprehending the whole country, such a committee might be dispensed with. The hon. member was aware of the illegitimate use made of the power which the magistrates possessed under the existing law, of the improper manner in which they employed it upon elections, and that such, a law required revision. He knew that in
1103
Mr. Sheridan
professed his disposition to yield to whatever appeared to be the general wish of the house, and therefore he should comply with the request of his hon. friend (Mr. Moore), to any suggestion from whom he should be always happy to attend. At the same time he could not help noticeing the surprise expressed by the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, that he should have brought forward this bill at so late a period of the session. What, said Mr. S., the right hon. gent., who has surprised the house and the country so much himself —he who has surprised the house at a late period of the session with his plan of government for Ireland—who has surprised it with his new military project—who has surprised it by proposing to suspend that highly laudable and universally praised system, the plan of enlisting for a limited time,—and yet, that after all the right hon. gent. should talk to me about surprising the house! But, among all his surprises there is one surprise which he could not produce, namely that of surprising me by opposing this bill; for I expected it.—The right hon, gent. proceeded to state the manner in which he had acted with a view to produce a satisfactory bill. First, he drew up a bill such as some gentlemen now professed to wish for, combining the case of brewers owning public-houses
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Mr. Rose
vindicated the conduct of the commissioners appointed to superintend the improvements alluded to by the right. hon. gent., from any concern in the transactions respecting Mr. Morris or Mrs. Unthank. For whenever those commissioners thought the removal of any house necessary to their object, they not only paid for the house itself, but, if a shop or place of business, they allowed for the good will also, or any other loss sustained by the proprietors.
Mr. Sheridan
said, the complaint in the cases he referred to was, that the licence was refused on the ground that it was in contemplation to take down the house for the purpose of the improvement he had mentioned.
Mr. Huskisson
said, that he had received some papers from the right hon. gent. upon the subject of Mr. Morris's case, and that an inquiry was set on foot in the proper department. The result of that inquiry he should take care to have communicated to the right hon. gent., and if the case should turn out to be such as the right hon. gent. had described it to be, he had no doubt that ample redress would be granted by remunerating Mr. Morris.—After some farther conversation, Mr. Sheridan with leave of the house withdrew the bill.
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Mr. Dent's
bill relative to the lodgement of £400. upon prosecuting an election petition, after some observations from sir Pigott and lord W. Russell against it, and from Mr. T. Jones and Mr. Dent in its favour, produced a division of six to five; and there not being 40 members present the house adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, August 10.
[SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.]—The Lord Chancellor
presented a bill for the better administration of justice in Scotland, the object of which he briefly stated, namely to divide the court of session info two chambers, one consisting of the lord president and 7 judges, and the other of the lord justice clerk and 6 judges. His lordship stated, that he did not wish any proceeding should be had upon the bill this session, but merely that it should be printed and lie over for consideration next session.
The Earl of Selkirk
thought it would be preferable to constitute the 6 justiciary lords of the court of session a court for the trial of jury causes, they being accustomed to trial by jury in criminal cases, and that the other nine judges should constitute a court of equity, with power to send causes for trial by jury into the other court.
The Earl of Lauderdale
declined going into the subject at present, but stated, that there were several petitions from different parts of Scotland, ready to be presented in favour of extending the trial by jury to that country.—The bill was read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
[NEUTRAL POWERS.]—Earl Stanhoperose
to call the attention of the house to a subject he said of great importance; he alluded to the conduct of this country towards neutral powers. After what had passed in America, he thought the subject became of still greater importance, although he was aware that nothing could be said about that event at present. If, however he did not receive a satisfactory answer from ministers respecting the line of conduct intended to be adopted towards states at peace with this country, he should make a motion on the subject, on Thursday, which his lordship read, and the object of which was to recognize the principle of equality and reciprocity in the conduct of this country towards independent States with whom we were at peace.—The lords were ordered to be summoned for Thursday.
[MILITIA TRANSFER BILL.]
—The order
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Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that it had been the wish of his majesty's ministers to have avoided, if possible, proposing any new military measure during the present session, in order that they might have had more experience of the effects of the plan proposed by a right hon. gent. in the other house (Mr. Windham), and adopted by parliament, and which it was their wish should have a fair trial. After, however, the events which had unfortunately occur red, it became incumbent upon ministers to propose some measure for increasing the military force of the country, in order still further to guard against the increased power of the enemy. He did not wish the country to believe, that, whatever had been the dangers of invasion, they were not now increased. Whilst at a former period, if the enemy failed in an attempt to invade our shores, the failure was sure to recoil upon the continent, and environ him with danger there; and when now, from the unfortunate situation of the continental powers, that expectation could not be indulged, at least only to a very limited extent, it could not be supposed that the danger of invasion had not increased. With these difficulties to encounter, ministers felt it their duty to propose to parliament an augmentation of the military force of the country. It was evident that a sufficient augmentation could not be obtained by ordinary recruiting, as that did little more than repair the annual waste of men; neither could it be obtained by any additional stimulus given by the new plan, as it appeared from the statement of the number of recruits obtained, that that number had rather diminished than increased, whilst the desertions, which it was confidently expected would be decreased, had on the contrary increased. No one, indeed, who supported that plan, had considered it as capable of producing a large increase of men immediately; but as calculated gradually to improve the army. That it was necessary to increase the regular force of the country there could be no doubt, as that must prove the substratum of the general force of the country. The militia and the volunteers were capable of rendering services to the country of great importance; and he thought the latter force had been most unwisely decried, as if it were said, that because such a force was not good for every thing, that, therefore, it was good for nothing. They on the contrary,
1108
Lord Sidmouth
said, that though he concurred in many of the sentiments expressed by the noble baron (lord Hawkesbury) who had just sat down, his mind had not been brought to the same conclusion, with respect to the measures of defence fit to be adopted at the present crisis; and this difference arose, in a great degree, from the different view he had taken of the crisis itself. It was indeed evident, independently of the avowal of the noble baron, that notwithstanding the unfortunate and decisive circumstances which attended the opening of the campaign on the continent (he alluded particularly to the fall of Dantzic) there was no intention on the part of government, at the time of the meeting of parliament, to propose any measures for the augmentation of our military force.
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1111
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1113
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1115
the substratum
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1120
Lord Boringdon
contended, that there was every probability of the measure being effectual to the extent of the whole number of men sought to be raised. That these men, when transferred from the militia into the regulars, would be at least equal to what they were in the militia, that they would even be equal to most regular troops, he thought could hardly be denied. The noble viscount had said, that a long time must intervene before the deficiency produced by the draughting of them from the militia could be supplied. This was, in his opinion, the very point in which the present system was most efficient, and that in which it had the most decided advantage over the measure of the noble viscount. By the noble viscount's plan, the new levies would be formed into separate corps, consisting entirely of untrained men, By that now proposed, the 28,000 newly raised recruits were to be engrafted into 100 different battalions, into which they themselves would infuse additional vigour, and from whose almost complete state of training, on the other hand, they must be brought in a comparatively short period to the use of arms. He confessed there was one part of the bill he did not like, and that was the clause by which any infringement was made on the improved mode of recruiting the regular army, introduced during the last year. He should have preferred it had the period of limited service been still adopted, raising the bounty progressively, as 7 guineas for seven years, 8 guineas for eight years, 9 guineas for nine years, &c.
Lord De Dunstanville
though he seldom found himself disposed to compliment the present ministers, could not refrain from giving them his thanks for any measure which went to add to the force of the country at this important crisis. To the mode, however, in which this additional force was sought to be raised, he felt himself called on to object. He would greatly prefer the measure recommended by the noble viscount; namely, the Army of Reserve. It had been tried, and found effectual. If, however, the present measure passed into a law, it should have his utmost assistance to give it effect; but at the same time it had not his approbation.
1121
The Earl of Selkirk
rose and spoke nearly as follows:
*
*
1122
1123
1124
1125
*
*
1126
1127
1128
1129
levée en masse
1130
1131
1132
1133
1134
1135
1136
1137
1138
1139
1140
i
e
1141
*
*
1142
1143
1144
could not
1145
1146
*
This is but a faint and feeble sketch of the
1147
consequences of French conquest: but the picture has been drawn in detail, and with a was masterly hand, by the author of The Dangers of the Country;—a picture which Englishmen would do well to look at, while yet the danger
may
1148
1149
1150
1151
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, August 10.
[WEST-INDIA COLONIES.] Mr. Ellis
pursuant to notice, rose to call the attention of the house to this most important subject. He did not mean to detain the house by going at any length into the question, because it must be obvious to any gentleman who should examine the report of the committee on the commercial state of the West-India Colonies, that some relief was necessary to maintain the interests of those colonies. It would be impossible to carry into effect, during the present session, any remedies to which that house was to be a party, but he must recommend it to the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, to direct his attention to this most interesting subject during the recess, in order that he might be prepared with some means of alleviating the distress of the West-India planters in the ensuing session. He wished to direct the attention of that right hon. gent. to the subject more anxiously, because he had reason to apprehend that it was the opinion of that right hon. gent., that a reduction of the duty upon sugars would not be any relief to the planter. The hon. member then went into a consideration of the Report, to
1152
l
Mr. Rose
jun. seconded the motion. He expressed his conviction of the urgent necessity of the case, and was sorry, that the state of the session would not allow the house to go into it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had no objection to the motion of the hon. gent., and certainly the handsome and candid manner in which he had brought it forward claimed the attention of the house. For himself, he could answer, that the subject should have his most serious attention. He did not think it necessary to go further into the question then, though he should say, that it was impossible to read the Report without feeling how interesting the subject was from the circumstance of so large a mass of property being involved in
1153
Mr. Lushington
was glad to find that the attention of the house was at last directed to West-India interests. The circumstances in which the colonies were placed by the abolition of the slave trade, contrary to the opinion of the planters, gave them a claim upon the legislature. The Report said, that unless some immediate remedy were to be applied, ruin would be the consequence to the West Indies; but it would be five or six months before any legislative remedy could be applied, and this was one of the circumstances that contradicted that passage, which ministers had introduced into his majesty's speech at the close of the last session, that the dissolution took place at a time when no material inconvenience to the public business would arise from it.
Mr. Hibbert
was happy to observe the very candid manner in which this subject had been brought forward, and which was much more calculated to produce an impression on the house, than the use of stronger language. The hon. gent. then warmly urged the claims of the West-India proprietors on the legislature, agreeing with the hon. member who preceded him that the dissolution of parliament had been the cause of inconvenience in this respect; and contending, that the justification of that measure was unsatisfactory to the West-India interests, as well as to many persons in that house, who had no ambition to obtain any place in the administration.—The resolution was then put and agreed to.
[COMMITTEE OR FINANCE.] Mr. Bankes
brought up the second report of the committee of finance respecting the Bank. The report was ordered to lie on the table; but on the motion that it be printed, the hon. gent. thought it necessary to say a few words. It was not in consequence of any inattention on the part of the committee, that this report had not been presented sooner, but, from the various details into which it was necessary to enter, it had been found impossible to present it sooner to the house. Yet if the report had been laid before the house as early as he at first had reason to expect, it was not his inten-
1154
[PETITION OF DR. HIGHMORE.] Mr. W. Smith
observed, that he had a Petition in his hand containing matters of a very grave and serious nature. The statements in the petition were such, that though no man was more disposed than he was to lay any complaint before the house, he would have hesitated to present it were it not that it contained matter of great moment to the public in general. The petitioner Nathaniel Highmore had studied the civil law for 11 years at Jesus college, Cambridge; had performed his exercises with applause, and taken out his degree of doctor. The grievance was, that he was not permitted to practise in Doctors Commons, in consequence of the refusal of the archbishop of Canterbury, to give him the proper authority. He had applied for redress to the
1155
1156
1157
1158
The Advocate-General
observed, that as the hon. gent. did not mean to institute any proceeding immediately upon the petition, it would not be necessary for him to go at length into the consideration of it. He had only to state, that the petition was founded upon a great misapprehension of facts, and a great misapprehension of legal principles, as applicable to those facts. He did not mean, however, to charge the misapprehension on the hon. gent.
Mr. W. Smith
stated, that the allegations in the petition, were founded on the allegations in an affidavit made in the court of king's bench.—The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
[OFFICES IN REVERSION] Mr. Bankes
rose to submit, pursuant to notice, a motion on the subject of granting offices in reversion. If be might assume, and he hoped be might, that the opinion of the house had undergone no alteration on this point since their late resolution, he thought it would be unnecessary for him to trouble them at any great length, as he might expect an unanimous concurrence in the proposition which he was about to lay before them. It would be waste of time for him to address them at any great length, when he expected no opponent: but because he heard that it had been surmised that the object of the bill passed by the house against the granting of offices in reversion trenched on the just prerogative of the crown, and that it would be of no real service to the public in point of economy, he begged leave to say a few words on these topics.—With regard to the prerogative of the crown, he was firmly persuaded that the object of that bill touched upon it but very little, and could not be properly said materially to trench upon it at all. There was at present an opportunity for an undue dissipation in that prerogative, and he was convinced that it would be more full, better exercised, and much more beneficial, if be granting of offices in reversion should be restrained in the manner pointed out by the bill. It would certainly be rather strengthened than weakened, for the gratitude of persons entering upon the reversions, would naturally be small when they considered them in some measure as a vested right, rather than a favour conferred solely for services to the public. There were some instances where these reversions were held by persons perfectly unfit for whatever trust might be attached to the
1159
1160
The Hon. J. W. Ward
said it was not his intention to enter upon any long discussion at present, and he now only rose to express that surprise and regret which he could not help feeling at the result of the enquiry of the committee which had been appointed to examine the Journals of the lords, relative to their proceedings upon the Reversion bill. From this it appeared, that that important bill had been rejected. But he could not help being very much surprized at this, because it was an unusual thing that a bill which had met with so very slender an opposition [none, none, from several quarters of the house,]—which had met with no opposition in that house, which was directed against public abuses,
1161
1162
hereditas luctuosa
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
did not feel any objection to the motion of his hon. friend, and had risen only in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. gent. who had just sat down, to state why he did not object to the present motion, and the grounds of the conduct which he had observed with respect to this measure, when it had been before in its progress through that house. And he thought this the more necessary after the ingenious course which the hon. gent. who had just sat down had taken, by which, in a way certainly perfectly parliamentary, he contrived to throw out the severest animadversions on the servants of the crown. The reason for the non-attendance of the ministers of the crown probably was, that they had not thought the bill of such importance as necessarily to require their attendance. Two opinions seemed to prevail respecting the importance of the bill. Some thought it of vast importance, with a view to purposes of œconomy, while others considered it formidable, as trenching on the prerogative of the crown. In neither of these opinions did he concur. He thought there was nothing in it that materially trenched on the prerogative of the crown, for he considered it as a matter of nice calculation, whether it increased or diminished the prerogative. If it diminished it in one view, it certainly increased it in another; and where the matter was so nicely balanced, he did not think there could be any reasonable grounds for supposing that the prerogative could be materially trenched upon. As to the economical effects of the bill, he could
1163
1164
Mr. Bouverie
1165
Lord Henry Petty
expressed his difference in opinion from the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, as to the importance of the bill to which the motion then before the house
1166
Sir John Sebright
owed it to his country, to his constituents, and to himself, to declare his full and entire concurrence in the motion of the hon. gent., and he could not
1167
Mr. Whitbread
observed, that the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer had
1168
nem. con
1169
[GENERAL STATE OF AFFAIRS.]
On the motion, that this house at its rising do adjourn to Thursday next,
Mr. Whitbread
rose. He observed, that this country being at present surrounded by the most gloomy prospects which perhaps ever offered to any nation, events were not unlikely to occur which might induce irremediable distress, if the utmost vigour and vigilance were not employed by all the departments of the state to avert the evils that menaced us. In such a crisis, of course, he deprecated the prorogation of parliament; pregnant, as the crisis was, with events which might render it peculiarly desirable for prudent ministers to resort to parliament for advice. He hoped, therefore, it was not intended by ministers to advise his majesty to prorogue parliament on Friday next, as rumour stated. Among the causes of gloom and alarm which this country at present witnessed, the hon. gent. noticed the state of our relations with a particular power—he meant Turkey; with regard to which, that house and the country were really unable precisely to decide whether we were at peace, or whether we were at war. An ambassador had been appointed to that state, and yet what was the nature of our connexion with it, or our future prospect regarding it, was quite uncertain. But he did not propose to press any embarrassing questions upon his majesty's ministers as to this topic. There were, however, other points upon which he was anxious, in common with the country at large, to receive all the information which ministers could consistently afford. The first and most important was with respect to the Russian treaty. In that treaty he observed an article specifically referring to the mediation of Russia between this country and France. Now, he wished to know whether any direct communication had been received from the court of Petersburgh, in consequence of this article? At the same time, he could not help observing, that there was something in the present juncture peculiarly favourable for the restoration of peace upon honourable terms, if ministers dexterously availed themselves of it. Thinking so, he strongly recommended ministers to accept the proposal of negociation; and, if they would enter upon it in the spirit of peace, he had no doubt that it would terminate in the establishment of that invaluable blessing; but if ministers proceeded upon a different spirit, he had serious fears that it would lead to great and permanent
1170
1171
Mr. Canning
rose, and spoke to the following effect:—I do not rise, sir, for the purpose of offering any argument to justify the exercise of his majesty's prerogative, with regard to the prorogation of parliament, or to state the reasons which may influence his servants in the counsels which they may deem it advisable to offer upon such a subject. Any attempt at that sort of justification is, according to my judgement, in the present instance, totally unnecessary. But I rise to make such replies to the hon. member's questions, as I feel consistent with my public duty; and I am happy that I do feel enabled to afford a full answer upon those points to which the hon. gent. appears to attach the most importance. First, then, as to Russia; the hon. gent.'s interrogatory is—whether any direct communication has been received from the court of St. Petersburgh, conformably to a certain article in the treaty recently concluded between that country and France? Undoubtedly, a direct communication has been received from the Russian court, by his majesty's government, containing an offer of mediation between this country and France. But, I think it right, at the same time to state that this communication was unaccompanied by any copy of the treaty lately concluded, or any of its conditions—but specifically not the article alluded to by the hon member. This communication was received on the 2d of this month, and at that time his majesty's ministers had no knowledge whatever of the terms of the Russian treaty; but least of all of a certain article in that treaty. Nor had they, indeed, any intelligence upon the subject, until they received it through the same medium as that which conveyed it to the public, namely, a French newspaper. Under these circumstances, ministers received the communication I have mentioned from Russia, and to that communication; they returned, what in such a state of things must have been expected, only a conditional answer. What the nature of that answer was, the hon. gent. will not ask me to state; but I can assure him, that the answer of ministers was given in the most perfect ignorance of the Russian treaty, and particularly of the article alluded to by the hon. gent.—The
1172
1173
Mr. Whitbread
expressed himself obliged to the right hon. secretary for the candour with which he had answered the
1174
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, August 11.
[PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS BILL.] Lord Holland
moved the second reading of this bill.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, he should move, that the bill, instead of being read a second time now, be read a second time this day 3 months: first, because he thought the preamble of the bill absolute nonsense; secondly, because many of the motives alleged for introducing it, as well as the allegations upon which it was founded, were not true in the extent alleged, and were, in many respects, highly objectionable; and, thirdly, because the subject was one which, in its various bearings, called for more serious and deliberate discussion than was practicable at the present period of the session, to justify their lordships in its adoption. He would not deny, that education to the lower orders of the community, in the extent proposed, under proper directions and limitations, might be desirable; but he could not agree with the framers of the bill, that education, blended with morality, was more extended amongst the lower classes of the Scotch population, than amongst those of this country; for, however superior the Scotch might be in the former, he could not admit their superiority in the latter. He objected also to the bill, because it did not propose to place instruction more upon a religious footing; and though it was certainly less objectionable now than in its original form, which rendered the plans it proposed compulsory upon the parishes throughout the kingdom, yet the modification was, in his view, not much less inadmissible; for it placed the adoption of such schools at the sole discretion of the majority of parishioners in number, without any reasonable
1175
Lord Holland
thought the bill, in the form it had reached this house, was so totally devoid of all possible ground for objection, that he was surprized at the hostility of his noble friend. He did not think the preamble liable to the objection that it was nonsense. In substance, at least, it was indisputably true; and the mere error of a single word might be remedied in a committee. He should have thought it an insult to the understanding of the house to go into elaborate arguments, for the purpose of proving that educating the people would improve their morals and their comforts; and as to the argument of want of time to discuss so important a subject at this period of the session, this was one among the many instances which had already occurred to falsify the pompous assertions of his majesty's ministers, and the public papers in their interest, that the late dissolution could cause no material interruption to the public business, nor impede any of those great and salutary public measures to which the country looked, and of which this bill was certainly one.
Lord Redesdale
disapproved highly of the bill in its present shape, though, with his noble friend, he cherished the principle, that a good system of education properly regulated would be of great public utility. His principal objection to the present bill seemed to be the little reference it had, in his view of it, to the religious establishments of the country. Such a principle should, in considerations of the kind, be kept primarily in view. To some of the provisions of the bill he also strongly objected. The enactments had no reference to the extent of the parish. Some parishes, particularly in the northern counties, were 25 miles long, and 14 or 15 broad. A great number of the parishioners, therefore, could reap no possible benefit from the establishment of one school. Besides, the bill would go to interfere with several scholastic establishments of private institution, which were now productive of great benefit in different parts of the country. In Ireland there was a legal provision, which, he regretted, was so ill attended to; that the parish ministers should either themselves keep a school, or appoint a Schoolmaster directly for the instruction of
1176
The Lord Chancellor
opposed the bill in its present shape, though he was by no means unfriendly to the principle of diffusing instruction as generally and as widely as possible. He was fully sensible of the benefits arising from the system of education in Scotland, and as he himself was one of the borderers on that part of the country, he felt himself indebted to that system for the benefit of his own education: still, he could not approve of the present bill, because it was miserably deficient in the means of accomplishing the great object which it seemed to have in view. Besides, it tended to a departure from the great principle of instruction in this country, by taking it in a great measure out of the superintendance and controul of the clergy. Nor were these his only objections; in whatever shape any bill of the kind might appear, he never would agree to any that left matters of this nature to be judged or and decided by the majority of the inhabitants of a parish. To what confusion might not such a mode of decision open a door? Would it not give rise to all the mischiefs of an election, among the majority of the inhabitants of every parish, of whatever description of people they might be composed? What endless litigations! Had there not been, not long since, an example of it in the election of a minister for the parish of Clerkenwell; and had not that contention lasted 7 years at the bar of this house? He had also to object to the clause, which gave to the court of chancery the disposal of the money for these establishments, when it amounted to a certain sum. It should be recollected, how such sums so entrusted were sweated in that court, and how in the end, when the oyster came to be divided, the real owner got nothing but the shells. He could never, therefore, assent to the bill in its present form.
The Archbishop of Canterbury
trusted he
1177
Earl Stanhope
was sorry to differ from the right reverend prelate, and several other persons in that house, on wat he must call the abominable principle, that no part of the population of this country ought to receive education unless in the tenets of the established church. Was it reasonable or just to say that the children of catholics, presbyterians, quakers, and all the other innumerable sects of dissenters from the established church in this country, were to be debarred all sources of public education, supported by public benevolence, unless they were to become converts to our established religion? Would the right rev. prelate contend, that because the catholic religion was the established one in Canada, no poor Protestants should be educated there unless he was allowed to be
1178
only
only
[IRISH ARMS BILL.]
The house resolved itself into a committee on the Irish Arms bill.
Lord Holland
thought it singular that they should have arrived at this stage of a bill of such great importance, without any reasons being alleged to prove the necessity of the measure. Not four-and-twenty hours had elapsed since they had been considering bills, the objects of which were to contribute to arm a large portion of the people, in order to meet the exigencies of the country, and now it formed a singular contrast that they were in a committee on a bill for disarming a large portion of his majesty's subjects in Ireland. He could not suffer a bill of this nature to be proceeded in without again calling the attention of the house to the causes of those discontents which
1179
1180
Lord Hawkesbury
said, he had not introduced the bill with any arguments in support of it, because it contained nothing new in its principle or provisions, and not many weeks had elapsed since the principle of this bill had been distinctly recognized by the late administration, who proposed a bill for continuing an act commonly called the Gunpowder act, and which contained provisions equally oppressive, if so they could be called, with the present bill. That bill was passed by which the act was continued for 7 years, whilst it was only proposed to continue the present act for two years. His noble friend had been unfortunate in his allusion to Scotland, as in that country the acts of restraint and coercion had continued for 50 years, and it was only by a steady course of government upon these principles, that the discontents there were at length put an end to; but then they could not be made the subjects of party politics here, as the sources of these discontents was, in this part of the Island, treason. With respect,. however, to mild and conciliatory measures, nothing could have satisfied the discontented in that country, but the restoration of the Pretender. It was only by a steady system of government, together with old prejudices wearing away, that at length the necessity for measures of coercion ceased, and the population of Scotland had since served his majesty with the utmost bravery and loyalty. The circumstances of the two countries were, however, Materially different. It was only of late years that Scotland had been trusted with a national militia, whilst in Ireland there had long been a national militia of high character; and there was a brave and loyal yeomanry; a great number of the population of Ireland were likewise enlisted in the army. He did not wish to enter into a long, discussion of the subject; he should merely observe, that wherever discontents existed, those discontents we re not likely to be decreased by being made the subject of party politics. The necessity of this bill, from what was known of the state of Ireland, he conceived to be obvious.—The motion for the chairman leaving the chair being negatived,
1181
Lord Hardwicke
proposed an amendment, for the better promulgation of this law; as he conceived, that in the manner the laws were now promulgated in Ireland, many persons would be completely ignorant of the provisions of this act.
Lord Redesdale
said, that the registering of arms had been so long the law of Ireland, that it was impossible they could be ignorant of the most important parts of this act. He relied upon the moderation of the magistracy for not abusing the power vested in them.—The amendment was negatived, and the bill passed through the committee.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, August 12.
[MILITIA TRANSFER BILL.]
The order of the day being read for the third reading of this bill,
Lord Sidmouth
rose chiefly with a view to re-state the opinion he had on a former occasion expressed of the tendency of this measure, and to correct a misconception of it, which some noble lords seemed to labour under. It was acknowledged by his noble friend (lord Hawkesbury), that it had lately been matter of consideration with his majesty's ministers, whether at the present crisis it were better to resort to the principle of the Army of Reserve bill, or to adopt the new one now under discussion. Much enquiry was said to have been made respecting the subject; but after mature deliberation, the opinions of the cabinet prevailed in favour of the present measure. He also had instituted enquiries into the matter; the result of which most completely decided his preference to the principle of the Army of Reserve bill. The country was now almost precisely in the same situation as that in which it was placed in 1803, when that bill was adopted. The crisis at present was perhaps more urgent, and the state of the continent less favourable; but, still, under such circumstances would he have looked to the operation of the Army of Reserve act. The beneficial effects of that act became more visible every day, and promised the fairest success; but it was thought proper to substitute a measure in its room, which at the end of 20 months did not produce more than 8000 men. The noble viscount then entered into a comparative statement of the operation of the two acts, the Army of Reserve and the Additional Force bills, which he compared with that now under discussion, and declared it to be his conviction, that there
1182
Lord Hawkesbury
acknowledged having said that it was matter of deliberation with ministers, which of the two measures they should prefer, and the present was not resolved upon without full conviction of its being preferable under all the circumstances of our situation. It was allowed by the noble viscount, that the bill might in a great measure, if not fully, accomplish its object, but that still its benefit was contingent. Granted. But what was the wish of government? Was it not to meet the pressure and diminish the evil of the present moment; and how? by increasing our defensive and disposable force. This, then, would be, in some degree, accomplished, even in the view of the noble viscount: and so far then it would succeed. But he had little or no doubt of its complete success, and then our military means would have received a very great increase indeed. For those who well understood the condition of a soldier, and of a disposable force, would readily acknowledge that by such an addition to it as that of 28,000 men, not only was our defensive force considerably increased, but also considerably strengthened, which was a distinction not to be overlooked.
1183
The Lord Chancellor
did not think that his habits authorized him to aspire to great military knowledge; but, he would, however, venture to concur with the noble viscount (Sidmouth) in giving the most ample praise in favour of the Army of Reserve act. At the time it was brought forward, that act had most certainly his concurrence, and even now he did not hesitate to say, that it was one of the most able military plans that had ever been produced in this country; but while he made that acknowledgement, he must also observe, that there was room to think otherwise of that measure at present. It was not so well adapted now to the crisis of affairs, and it should be remembered, that the effects which at first it might have produced must now be considerably altered, not only by the change of the actual circumstances of the country, but by the operation of the other different measures that had since been introduced.
Lord Mulgrave
thought the noble viscount had laid too much stress upon a distinction between a disposable and defensive force. No doubt, a disposable force was also a defensive one; but from every kind of defensive force, the same services, the same resources, could not, under all the circumstances that might call for these services, be reasonably expected. He however, of opinion, that at a moment like the present, there was no room to hesitate between the two plans.
Lord Sidmouth
in explanation, again insisted that the principle he laid down was, that the advantages gained by the bill would be more than counterbalanced by the inconveniences that must arise.—The bill was then read a third time.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, August 13.
[DISPUTE WITH AMERICA.] Earl Stanhope
rose to make the motion of which he had given notice, respecting a resolution that all independent nations should be treated upon the principle of perfect equality and complete reciprocity. In proposing this resolution to the house, he had not merely in his eye the circumstances in which we now stood with regard to America; the principle to which he alluded should, in his opinion, be extended to all states and nations indiscriminately. He could not help noticing the absence of ministers on this occasion; but he had already occasion to observe that they seemed
1184
The Lord Chancellor
could not but commend the serious manner in which the noble earl had expressed himself on topics of such importance. As however, no authentic documents were before the house, to guide an opinion upon matters of such magnitude, he thought it more prudent not to agitate them under such circumstances. The noble earl would therefore, he hoped, excuse him for moving the previous question.
Earl Stanhope
in explanation, thanked the noble and learned lord for his kind attention, and observed that what he advanced, not only referred to the present state of America, but to all independent nations, at all times, when at peace with us.
Earl Morton
objected to the motion, as tending to legislate, upon abstract principles
1185
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, August 13.
[STATE OF IRELAND.] Mr. Sheridan
rose to make his promised motion, and spoke in substance as follows: I rise, sir, under some degree of apprehension that, from the lateness of the hour, and the quantity of less important business which the house has already gone through, I may be felt to trespass on your attention: but it was, I assure you, not less my intention this night, than it was on Monday, to address you at a much earlier hour of the evening, had other business permitted. The lateness of the hour on Monday was, indeed, one of the causes which induced me to postpone my motion until this evening; and I cannot but regret that on this, the last day, nay almost the last hour of the sessions, it should become necessary for me to arrest your attention; because I know that at such a time to delay your sitting cannot be agreeable to your feelings or to your habits. I am aware that it must have somewhat of an ungracious appearance to postpone your separation at such a season; and, believe me, I am as willing to enjoy the benefits of that separation as any one among you; but I am too strongly impelled by a call of imperious duty to yield to any desire of accommodation. The necessity which gave rise to that call, was not created by me—nor was the postponement of the proposition I am about to submit, from Monday to this late period, by any means my fault. The propriety of adopting it, is to my conviction rendered perfectly obvious by the circumstances of the two bills which you have recently passed with regard to Ireland. When you have determined to suspend the constitution and laws of Ireland, is it not reasonable to propose to you some enquiry into the causes alleged for such suspension, and how far such causes are removable—is it not wise, when you are sending such acts to Ireland, to communicate at the same time some assurances of your resolution to take the state of that country into your consideration? I am confident that such conduct would be at once consistent with policy and humanity, and that much of the apprehension and irritation which acts of parliament may be naturally expected to
1186
1187
1188
1189
1190
1191
1192
1193
1194
comitatûs
1195
1196
1197
1198
vice vers
1199
1200
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it did not seem to him to be necessary to enter into any argument on the subjects touched on by the right hon. gent. He begged leave, however, before he even troubled the house with the few words which he should have to offer on the subject of the right hon. gent's. motion, to correct a mistake into which he had fallen. The right hon. gent. had said, that the military defence of Ireland had been greatly reduced within a short period by the removal of troops from that country. Any reduction of this kind, however, which had taken place, was trifling in the extreme; and when he mentioned that there were at this moment in Ireland 50,000 men of the regular army and militia alone, independent of volunteers, gentlemen, he was convinced, would agree with him, that the military force in that part of the country had not been reduced in any improper degree. Having rectified this mistake in the statement of the right hon. gent., he should now offer a few words on the grounds upon which he called on the house to concur in the present motion. Great part of what had fallen from the right hon. gent. on this head seemed to him not so much applicable to the right hon. gent.'s present purpose, as to two bills lately before the house, and on which, as it would seem, the right hon. gent., having omitted, or not having seen, a favourable opportunity of delivering his sentiments, wished still to avail himself of that privilege. The harangue of the right hon. gent. taking it in this point of view, so far from being calculated to produce unanimity, could alone tend to discontent and division. When the right hon. gent. stated, that the renewal of the bills alluded to for a series of years was only to prepare the people for a total extinction of their liberties, was that not calculated to irritate rather than to reconcile? The measures, too, to which the right hon gent. alluded, had only lately passed through that house, and had been regarded universally as acts of imperious necessity. It was, therefore, rather an extravagant expectation in the right hon. gent. that having so recently declared the measures necessary, the house should now, with the circumstance fresh in their recol-
1201
Mr. Grattan
began by observing that he was glad that the present question had excited so great a portion of the public attention, because it she wed that the people of this country were not indifferent to the common cause. Ireland was linked to that cause, and every thing which related to Ireland naturally excited the public interest. It was the cause, not of Ireland only, but of the two islands together; the greatness, that is, the being of this great empire, was identified with the cordial co-operation of Ireland, and every question that related to the one, naturally involved the dearest interests of the other. With regard to the term of the Insurrection bill, he had certainly voted for the shorter period, and he still believed that it would have been more wise to confine within as narrow limits as possible, the period of the suspension of the British constitution. This much he said in confirmation of the assertion of his right hon. friend (Mr. Sheridan), who had, on that night, re-asserted his claim to the due applause of past times, and the disinterested admiration of impartial posterity. He had fought a good fight in the cause of Ireland; he had evinced a statesman's firmness and a patriot's love, and his display in the cause of
1202
1203
judicium parium
1204
1205
1206
1207
1208
Mr. Dillon
declared, that the adoption of the proposition before the house, must be considered as a solemn pledge of a new system of policy to be pursued with regard to the government of Ireland. It was a question of two modes of governing a country, which was admitted to be in a perpetual state of radical discontent. With regard to the government of such a country, two modes only could be resorted to—the one which he should recommend, namely, by removing the causes of such alleged discontent; the other, by adopting such vigorous and restrictive measures as those lately adopted, the effect of which was to guard against the ill effects of the bad system of policy pursued—a system which would consecrate abuse and reign only by arbitrary power. As to the effects of such a system, he must be allowed to state an axiom which had been agreed upon at all times, and by all the eminent persons who had ever written or spoken upon political economy—this axiom was, that a state would sooner recover from the effects of war, and conflagration, and general devastation, provided the period which should ensue should be one in which such a state should have full advantages of excellent laws and excellent government—than a state which had not been afflicted by such calamities, but had habitually groaned under bad government, restrictive laws, or commercial and civil liberty, during a period of unprofitable monotonous peace. To illustrate this axiom, he had only to look to the history of Ireland during the period of the two last centuries and he was constrained to give the preference to the former century, although disturbed and afflicted by frequent wars, over the last century, although a period of profound peace. Here he took a view of the state of Ireland from queen Elizabeth's reign to the year 1698, when the woollen trade was destroyed, and the articles of Limerick infringed, proving how much Ireland had comparatively flourished when laws had been passed in favour of commercial and civil liberty, though in a most disturbed pe-
1209
Mr. Windham
thought the disturbances in Ireland were to be imputed solely to an ill-judged system of misrule in that country. The Irish had been long asking, not so much for the rights of the constitution, as the rights of nature. As to a French party in Ireland, he not only believed that there was a French party, but that there ever had been a French party there, and, was it wise to give that party strength by the refusal of concessions, to which the population of Ireland had so just a claim? At the same time, he did not mean in the least degree to call in question the propriety of the late two bills—the Insurrection and the Arms bills. It had been satisfactorily proved to every individual in that house, that there was an existing necessity in Ireland for the enactment of those measures, on the great and incontrovertible authority of his right hon. friend upon his left hand (Mr. Grattan). He had stated, that there was a French party in Ireland, and that those measures were necessary; if his right hon. friend had not information to be relied on with respect to Ireland, he (Mr. Windham) did not know who had; and if the same character had not an interest in every thing connected with that country, he was really at a loss to find out who had. He disapproved, too, of the
1210
While his off-heel, insidiously aside,
Provokes the caper which he seems to chide,
Lord William Russell
felt peculiar regret at being obliged to differ, in the slightest degree, from his right honourable friends, as he hoped his sincere admiration for the talents and character of both would allow
1211
1212
1209*
"Rusticus expect at dum defluet amnis; at ille Labitur, et labetur in omne volubilis ¶vum."
1210*
1211*
Mr. Lockhart
was surprized at the indiscretion of the right hon. mover; for to represent Ireland as treated worse than a conquered country, and as having neither arms to fight with, nor any thing to fight for, and as oppressed or neglected by the legislature, contrary to the fact, tended to irritate that country, and to promote disunion between the united kingdoms. He was also surprized, that the right hon. gent. should represent the acts of a legislature, that was distinguished by cosmopolitan beneficence, as the evil of which Ireland had to complain. So far from being a suspension of the constitution, these acts were but the exercise of it. To call forth the powers given by the constitution for the protection of the peaceable and loyal subjects, was but to put the constitution in force. He was happy that the example of the right hon. gent. had not been followed by the other right hon. gent. who spoke from the same bench, and had pointed out certain measures for the relief of Ireland. As to the measure respecting education, he entirely agreed with that right hon. gent.; and as to a composition for tithes, if that should be necessary, he would not oppose it, provided that composition were to be progressive with the times, and as well secured as tithes were in this country to the clergy. As to the question of emancipation, his difficulty was, that the principles of the religion would, in the event of the Catholics getting power, be dangerous to the Protestant ascendancy. He thought that all governments, from which concessions or boons were demanded, should secure a due obedience to the laws before granting them, lest they should be received as proceeding from weakness, and not from wisdom and benevolence, and thus excite contempt instead of gratitude. He should vote against the motion, because it implied a dereliction of duty on their parts, and a censure upon acts of the legislature, the ne-
1212*
Mr. Herbert
observed, that it was by the adoption of such plans as had been suggested by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Grattan), that the people of Ireland were to be gained over. He could not support the motion in its present shape; but, if the right hon. mover would consent to leave out all after the word "session," he should then vote for it.
Mr. Lockhart
was surprized at the indiscretion of the right hon. mover; for to represent Ireland as treated worse than a conquered country, and as having neither arms to fight with, nor any thing to fight for, and as oppressed or neglected by the legislature, contrary to the fact, tended to irritate that country, and to promote disunion between the united kingdoms. He was also surprized, that the right hon. gent. should represent the acts of a legislature, that was distinguished by cosmopolitan beneficence, as the evil of which Ireland had to complain. So far from being a suspension of the constitution, these acts were but the exercise of it. To call forth the powers given by the constitution for the protection of the peaceable and loyal subjects, was but to put the constitution in force. He was happy that the example of the right hon. gent. had not been followed by the other right hon. gent. who spoke from the same bench, and had pointed out certain measures for the relief of Ireland. As to the measures respecting education, he entirely agreed with that right hon. gent.; and as to a composition for tithes, if that should be necessary, he would not oppose it, provided that composition were to be progressive with the times, and as well secured as tithes were in this country to the clergy. As to the question of emancipation, his difficulty was, that the principles of the religion would, in the event of the Catholics getting power, be dangerous to the Protestant ascendancy. He thought that all governments, from which concessions or boons were demanded, should secure a due obedience to the laws before granting them, lest they should be received as proceeding from weakness, and not from wisdom and benevolence, and thus excite contempt instead of gratitude. He should vote against the motion, because it implied a dereliction of duty on their parts, and a censure upon acts of the legislature, the necessity for which had been admitted on all sides.
1213
Mr. Sheridan
rose amidst cries of "question," and expressed his hope that the house would indulge him with the privilege usually granted to persons who brought forward a motion, and hear his reply to such arguments as seemed to him peculiarly to call for attention. Of this privilege he would not avail himself at any length. First, then, he should have no objection whatever to alter his motion in the manner proposed; and, indeed, to any alteration that did not destroy the substance of his motion, he had already pledged himself to agree—[The Speaker here interrupted the right hon. gent. and informed him, that consistently with the resolution of 1778, and the usages of the house, there could be no alteration in the motion after the previous question had been put].—Mr. Sheridan, in continuation observed, that in that case he had no doubt the right hon. gent. opposite would withdraw his motion, in compliance with the general wish of the house. He wished to have his answer. [No answer.] Well, the time for answering was not yet come perhaps. However, nothing in the world had been more misunderstood in this respect than the motion which he had submitted. Gentlemen seemed to suppose that he had censured the passing of the late bills, and thereby called upon the house to censure its own acts. He never had such intention, nor could his motion by any one who took the trouble to attend to it, be supposed to carry any such meaning. He had distinctly declared in his speech, that he had no such intention. But, it might be said, that though not in his speech, it might be in his motion. What, then, was his motion?—"That the house should take such measures as would render the provisions of the bills, lately with reluctance passed, unnecessary." What did his right hon. friend and his hon. friend over the way (Mr. Herbert) object to? They could not surely object to the word "reluctantly." His hon. friend over the way said, that he would join with him if he would strike out the latter part of his motion. What was that? Why, that the permanency of such measures would totally destroy the constitution. Did any one object to this? Then, he would be glad to see the man who would stand up in his place, and say that such enactments ought to be permanent, or that, if permanent, they did not completely overturn the constitution. These acts were to be in force for 3 years; and under these circumstances there was at least a reversion
1214
onus probandi
1215
1216
1217
pari passu,
1218
Mr. Fuller
thought that a proper and just view of the state of Ireland, could not be obtained without an enquiry.
Mr. Cochrane Johnstone
supported the resolution; and thought that parliament would become discredited in Ireland, if on all occasions a deal ear was turned to the complaints of the people of Ireland.—The house then divided; For Mr. Sheridan's motion 33; Against it 76.
List of the Minority.
Bradshaw, C.
Laurence, Dr.
Barnard, S.
Moore, P.
Cavendish, Lord G.
Maxwell, J.
Cavendish, W.
Noel, G. N.
Calcraft, J.
Petty, Lord H.
Coombe, H. C.
Parry, J. H.
Craig, J.
Piggott, Sir A.
Dillon, H. A.
Phillips, R. M.
Dawson, R.
Romilly, Sir S.
Folkestone, Lord
Russell, Lord W.
Gipps, G.
Sheridan, R. B.
Grattan, H.
Somerville, Sir M. H.
Herbert, H. A.
Sharpe, R.
Hibbert, G.
Windham, W.
Johnstone, C.
Ward, J. W.
Johnstone, G. A.
Wilder, F.
Lambe, W.
[PROPOSITIONS RESPECTING THE STATE OF THE ARMY.]
When strangers were readmitted,
Mr. Windham
was on his legs, and stating that he meant to propose some Resolutions relative to the Army, merely expressing facts as they appeared by the papers on the table. He understood the noble lord had some resolutions to propose also, but they consisted of reasoning instead of fact. He did not like this reasoning in Resolutions. It was like turning the statutes into verse, or like turning the speeches of the noble lord into rhyme to amuse the house at 5 o'clock in the morning.—After some conversation between Mr. Windham, lord Castlereagh, and the Speaker, it was agreed that the Resolutions of each should be put separately, and the debate on them adjourned to this day se'nnight. They were as follow.
Mr. Windham's Propositions
Regulars.
Militia.
Total
On the 1st of March 1807
173,600.
75,182.
248,782.
On the 1st of March 1807
181,856.
77,211.
259,067.
1219
In the first period of three months, ending on the 1st of October 1806
2,770
being at the rate per annum of
11,080.
In the 2d period, ending on the 1st of January 1807
3,496
13,934.
In the 3d period, ending on the 1st of April 1807
5,335
21,340.
In the 4th period, ending on the 1st of July 1807
6,078
24,312.
For the Cavalry, from
£.
13.
8.
to
8.
3.
For the Infantry
16.
16.
—
11.
11.
By ordinary Recruiting:
Additional Force:
Total:
1805
6,736.
4,187.
10,923.
1806
4,949.
4,834.
10,783.
1807
11,413.
11,413.
1220
At Head Quarters of Regiments in Gt. Britain:
Recruiting Districts in Gt. Britain:
By Do in Ireland:
Total:
1805
1,470.
2,327.
912.
4,709.
1806
1,084.
1,957.
953.
3,994.
1807
2,536.
6,115.
2,396.
11,047.
Ending
1 July 1805
2,225.
1 Jan. 1806
2,863.
1 July 1806
2,413.
1 Jan. 1807
7,081.
In Great Britain:
In Ireland:
1805
1 in 202.
1 in 204.
1806
1 in 217.
1 in 235.
1807
1 in 293.
1 in 205.
1805
1 in 10.
1806
1 in 10.
1807
1 in 12.
Lord Castlereagh's Propositions
I.—That the increase of 8,256 men, as stated, in the regular army, between March 1806 and March 1807, has been produced by 2,908 men received from the Irish militia, and 3,542 under the Additional Force act.—Total 6,450 men;—without which aids (deducting our losses in Egypt and South America, viz. 2,185 men, which appear in the effectives of the army on the 1st of March 1807) the army would have decreased, under the regulations established in June 1806, in the number of 379 men.—That the regular army has been progressively increasing, previous to the establishment of the new system of levying men, as follows; the amount being,
On the 1st of July
1804
141,740.
Do.
1805
162,997.
Do.
1806
175,997.
III. A.—That the number of recruits raised quarterly for the regular army, between the 1st of March 1805, and 1st of March 1806, when the repeal of the Additional Force act was determined on, was (exclusive of foreign and colonial levies, and of men transferred from the militia) as follows;
Number
Rate
raised.
per Ann.
1st Qr. ending July 1, 1805
4,865.
19,460.
2d Qr. ending Dec. 1, 1805
4,252.
17,004.
3d Qr. ending Jan. 1, 1806
4,790.
19,160.
4th Qr. ending Apl. 1, 1806.
6,096.
24,384.
III. B.—That the number of men raised as above, between the 1st of April 1805 and
1221
III. c.—That the number of men obtained for regular service, including men transferred from the militia (and exclusive of foreign and colonial levies) was, between July 1805 and July 1806, 33,693 men; between July 1806 and July 1807, 20,681, being 13,012 men less than in the preceding year, exclusive of the services of the men raised in the latter years being determinable in seven or ten year, according to the terms of their enlistment.
III. D.—That whilst the number of men levied in the latter year was less than in the former, as stated in the preceding Resolutions, an annual additional charge of 450,000
l
l
III. E.—That during the former year the recruiting parties did not exceed in number 405; that in the latter year they had been increased to 1,113, exclusive of above 400 extra recruiting officers; and from the 8th of Dec. 1806, 54 second battalions have been recruiting, under an intimation, that if they did not raise 400 men each in 6 months, the battalions would be then reduced, and the officers placed on half-pay; which extraordinary increase of the number of recruiting parties must be considered not only as highly prejudicial to the discipline and efficiency of the army, but as so much expence incurred for the levy of men, as distinguished from the performance of regimental duty.
III. F.—That whilst the number of men raised as above for the regular service, has in the latter year been reduced, the proportion of desertions in the army serving at home has been rather increased; the proportion being, in the five successive half-yearly periods, as follows;
Desertions in the Army at Home:
Jan. 1805 to July 1805
1 in 194.
July 1805 to Jan. 1806
1 in 152.
Jan. 1806 to July 1806
1 in 275.
July 1806 to Jan. 1807
1 in 243.
Jan. 1807 to July 1807
1 in 236.
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IV.—That the expence of levy money for general service has been reduced—for cavalry, from 19
l
l
s
d
l
s
d
l
s
d
VI.—That among the number raised in the first six months of 1807, being 11,413 men, 8,035 have been raised by the 54 second battalions; that is, by officers recruiting to avoid reduction.
VII. and VIII.—That, with the exception of 6,242 men transferred to garrison battalions, all men raised under the Army of Reserve and Additional Force acts have been since enlisted into the line, being of the age and height required by his majesty's regulations; and amongst the men so transferred to garrison battalions, are included all men who did not choose to enter for general service, without reference to age or height.
XI.—That the men volunteering from limited to unlimited service, from 1st July 1806, to 1st January 1807, received ten guineas bounty for only extending their service from local to general service; whereas before that period (the bounty being the same) the men transferring themselves to the line, exchanged their service, not only from home to foreign service, but from service limited in point of time to service for life; and the men in the latter period, who refused to transfer their services, were ordered to be drafted into garrison battalions.
TRANSPORTS.—I. That the transports at home on the first of March 1806, consisted of 380 ships, and 87,717 tons; of which 50 ships and 16,894 tons were fitted for foreign service, and including tonnage for 1,785 horses.—That the transports at home, on the 24th of March 1807, were 73 ships, and 16,468 tons, of which only 25 ships and 7,807 tons were fitted for foreign service; there being an excess of 307 ships and 71,249 tons at the former period, compared with the latter; and of 25 ships and 9,087 tons fitted for foreign service; in the latter period, the provision was only for 148 horses.
II.—That the above provision of tonnage on the 24th of March 1807, of 73 ships and 16, 468 tons, would have been further re-
1223
III.—That the transports on home service, on the 8th of August 1807, consisted of 401 ships and 82,143 tons; of which 67 ships and 20,289 tons were fitted for foreign service, including also a provision for 4,089 horses.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, August 14.
[THE LORDS COMMISSIONERS' SPEECH]
About a quarter before four, the archbishop of Canterbury, the lord chancellor, earl Camden, and lord Hawkesbury took their seats as his majesty's commissioners. Mr. Quarme, the deputy usher of the black rod, was sent to the commons, to require their attendance. Shortly afterwards the Speaker and a number of the members came to the bar, and the royal assent was given to several bills. After which,
The Lord Chancellor
in his majesty's name, delivered the following Speech:—
My Lords and Gentlemen;
1224
"My Lords, and Gentlemen;
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, August 14.
A little before four o'clock the deputy
1225
[MILITIA TRANSFER BILL.]
The following will be found a more correct report of the Speech of Lord Sidmouth on the 12th of August, than the one inserted at page 1181.
Lord Sidmouth
said, there were a few points to which he was desirous of adverting previous to their lordships' final decision upon this bill. It had been acknowledged on a former day by the noble secretary of state (lord Hawkesbury), that his majesty's ministers, after having determined upon the expediency of augmenting our military force, had balanced between the present measure, and the renewal of the Army of Reserve. He had himself made such a comparison, but, for reasons which he had before stated, he had come to a different conclusion. He indeed recollected, and with great satisfaction, that all the members of his majesty's present government, whether in, or out of office, in the years 1803 and 1804, had supported the measure which he now preferred: and in the spring of 1804, when, in consequence of the high rate of bounties occasioned by the number of men (195,000, exclusive of volunteers) raised within 13 months, he proposed only a suspension of this measure, that proposition was resisted by a large minority of the house of commons, and particularly by a right hon. gent. now unhappily no more (Mr. Pitt), who declared that he should recommend the compulsory principle of that bill as the basis of a plan for the increase of our domestic force, and for the permanent supply of the army. This intention was indeed afterwards abandoned, under circumstances, into which, for reasons which, he trusted, were obvious, he did not now wish to enter. But even after this change of intention, the army of reserve was highly and continually applauded, and he was convinced that if the life of the distinguished person to whom he had alluded had been spared, that he would himself have recommended it to the adoption of parliament.—But the noble baron (lord Hawkesbury) had stated, that the chief objection to the renewal of this measure, was founded upon the remission of the
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d
s
1227
1228
LIST OF PUBLIC ACTS,
Passed in the First Session of the Fourth Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and in the 47th Year of the Reign of his present Majesty, George III.
AN act to continue, until the 5th day oft July 1808, several acts for granting certain Rates and Duties, and for allowing certain Drawbacks and Bounties on Goods, Wares, and Merchandize, imported into, and exported from Ireland.
An act to revive and continue, until the expiration of six weeks after the commencement of the next session of parliament, three acts, passed in the 37th, 45th, and 46th years of his majesty's reign, for carrying into execution the Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation, between his majesty and the united states of America.
An act to indemnify persons who have advised or acted under an order of council for making Regulations with respect to the Navigation and Commerce between his majesty's Subjects and the Subjects of the united states of America.
An act to enable his majesty to grant a certain Annuity to major-general sir John Stuart, &c.
An act for empowering the Commissioners of Kilmainham Hospital to make Rules and Regulations for the Payment of Pensions to Soldiers on the establishment of that hospital.
An act for raising the sum of 3,000,000
l
An act for raising the sum of 1,500,000
l
An act concerning Common Reco-
1228
An act for granting to his majesty a Sum of Money to be raised by Lotteries.
An act for eucouraging the Export of Salted Beef and Pork from Ireland.
An act to provide for the Recovery of Penalties under certain acts, made in the 47th year of his present majesty, for securing the Rates and Duties in Ireland in respect of Dwelling House, &c.
An act to make further regulations with respect to Licences for the Sale of Spirituous and other Liquors by Retail in Ireland.
An act to suppress Insurrections, and prevent the Disturbance of the Public Peace in Ireland.
An act to repeal certain Duties of Excise, and also certain Stamp Duties in Ireland, and to grant certain new Stamp Duties in lieu thereof; and to amend the Laws relating to the Stamp Duties in Ireland.
An act to provide for the regulating and securing the Collection of the Duty on Gold and Silver Plate, wrought or manufactured in Ireland.
An act to grant to his majesty, until the 5th day of July 1808, certain duties on the Importation, and to allow Drawbacks on the Exportation of certain Goods, Wares, and Merchandize, into and from Ireland.
An act to amend an act made in the 46th year of his present majesty, for the regulating and securing the Collection of the Duties on Spirits distilled in Ireland.
1229
An act to provide for the Decrease and Suspension, in certain cases, of part of the countervailing Duties on British Refined Sugar imported into Ireland.
An act to continue until the 29th day of September 1808, and to amend two acts, made in the parliament of Ireland, to regulate the trade of Rectifying Spirits.
An act to enable his majesty to appoint the Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the time being it Ireland, one of the commissioners for executing the office of Lord High Treasurer in England, without salary.
An act to continue, until the 29th day of September 1817, an act, passed in Ireland in the 13th and 14th years of his present majesty, respecting certain Annuities.
An act to continue until the 29th day of September 1817, an act, passed in Ireland in the 36th year of his present majesty, for the Improvement and Extension of the Fisheries on the coasts of Ireland.
An act to amend an act, passed in the 43d year of his present majesty, for granting to his majesty the sum of 50,000
l
An act to explain and amend an act, passed in the 39th and 40th years of his present majesty, concerning the Disposition of certain Real and Personal Property of his Majesty, his Heirs and Successors, and also of the Real and Personal Property of her Majesty, and of the Queen Consort for the time being.
An act for the more convenient Payment of Half Pay, and Pensions, and other Allowances to Officers and Widows of Officers, and to persons upon the Compassionate List.
An act for defraying, until the 25th day of March 1808, the charge of the Pay and Clothing of the Militia of Ireland, &c.
An act to authorize his majesty to permit the Importation of Naval Stores from any place in ships belonging to States in amity with his majesty, and navigated in any manner whatever.
An act to enable the lords commissioners of his majesty's Treasury to issue Exchequer Bills, on the credit of such aids or supplies as have been or shall be granted by parliament for the service of Great Britain, for the year 1807.
An act for defraying the Charge of the Pay and Clothing of the Militia in Great Britain for the year 1807.
An act to amend several Laws of Excise in Great Britain, relating to the Duties on Salt, Soap, Paper, Coffee, Cocoa Nuts, Spirits, and Glass, and for restoring Seizures in certain cases.
An act to revive and continue, until
1230
An act for making Allowances in certain cases to Subaltern Officers of the Militia in Great Britain, while disembodied.
An act to continue until the 1st day of June 1808, an act of the 45th year of his present majesty, for appointing Commissioners to enquire into the Public Expenditure, and the Conduct of the Public Business in the Military Departments therein mentioned.
An act to make the port of Amsterdam, in the Island of Curagoa, a Free Port.
An act to indemnify such persons in the United Kingdom as have omitted to qualify themselves for Offices and Employments, &c.
An act to enable the Trustees of the British Museum to exchange, sell, or dispose of such parts of the Collections, and under such restrictions, as are therein specified.
An act to revive and continue, until the 25th day of March 1808, an act of the 46th year of his present majesty, for altering and amending several Laws relating to the Duties of Excise upon Malt.
An act for permitting, until the 25th day of March 1809, and from thence to the end of the then next session of parliament, the Importation of certain enumerated articles into the British Colonies on the Continent of North America, from the united states of America, and the Exportation of other enumerated articles from the same Colonies, to the said States.
An act for more effectually charging Public Accountants with Interest upon Balances; and for other purposes relating to the passing of Public Accounts.
An act to alter the Practice of Courts of Equity, in Suits in which Members of Parliament are Defendants.
An act to enable the East-India company to raise Money upon Bond instead of increasing their Capital Stock.
An act for more effectual Administration of the office of a Justice of the Peace in such parts of the counties of Middlesex and Surrey as lie in and near the Metropolis; and for the more effectual Prevention of Felonies.
An act to revive and continue, until the end of the next session of parliament, an act of the 46th year of his present majesty, for suspending Proceedings in Actions, and other Proceedings relating to the Woollen Manufacture.
1231
An act for transferring to his Majesty, certain possessions and rights vested in the Sierra Leone company, &c.
An act to enable his Majesty to grant to her majesty the Queen a capital messuage called Frogmore, &c.
An act to repeal certain provisions of an act, passed in the 46th year of his present majesty, for enquiring into the state of Windsor Forest, &c.
An act to grant certain duties on Callicoes, Muslins, Cotton Yarn, &c.
An act to continue until the 29th day of September 1808, several acts for the better collection and security of the Revenues of Customs and Excise in Ireland, and for preventing Frauds therein.
An act for allowing a Drawback on certain Linens exported from Great Britain to the West Indies.
An act to amend an act, made in the parliament of Ireland in the 5th year of his present majesty's reign, for erecting and establishing Public Infirmaries or Hospitals in Ireland.
An act to revive and continue, until the 25th day of March 1808, an act of the 39th year of his present majesty, for the more effectual Encouragement of the British Fisheries.
An act to repeal so much of an act of the list session of parliament, as relates to the Payment of Duty on Coffee and Cocoa Nuts when exported from the warehouse in which the same shall have been secured.
An act to enable his majesty's Postmaster-general to open and return Letters directed to Hamburgh or other places abroad, and which have been or shall have been returned or not sent.
An act to prevent improper persons from having Arms in Ireland.
An act for allowing a certain proportion of the Militia in Ireland, voluntarily to enlist into his majesty's Regular Forces.
An act for increasing the Militia of Ireland, under certain limitations and restrictions.
An act for allowing a certain proportion of the Militia in Great Britain voluntarily to enlist into his majesty's Regular Forces.
An act for encouraging the Exportation of Salt from Ireland.
An act to amend an act of the 46th year of his majesty, for the better Regulation of the office of Receiver-general of the Post-Office in England.
An act to give further time for purchasing the legal Quays and Warehouses, in the port of London.
1232
An act to repeal certain duties on Foreign Goods, Wares, and Merchandize exported from Great Britain to Ireland.
An act to suspend, until the 1st day of May 1808, the payment of all Drawbacks on Spirits made or distilled in Great Britain or Ireland, and exported from either country to the other respectively.
An act for repealing the Duties and Drawbacks payable on Silks, and for granting other Duties and another Drawback in lieu thereof.
An act to allow the Bounty now payable on British Callicoes and Cottons exported to Gibraltar to be paid on the same articles when exported to Malta.
An act to exempt Sales of West-India Produce, by the West-India Dock Company for payment of duties and charges, from the Auction Duty.
An act to make more effectual provision for the Prevention of Smuggling.
An act to permit, until the end of the next session of Parliament, the Importation of Swedish Herrings into Great Britain.
An act for the better Government of the Settlements of Fort St. George and Bombay; for the Regulation of Public Banks, &c.
An act for discharging from the Claims of the Crown certain Real and Personal Estates belonging to general De Lancey, late barrack-master-general, and vested in Trustees for Sale.
An act for maintaining and preserving a Military Canal and Road, made from Shorncliff in the county of Kent, to Cliff End in the county of Sussex.
An act for the speedily completing the Militia of Great Britain, and increasing the same, under certain limitations and restrictions.
An act for raising the sum of 500,000
l
An act for enabling his majesty to raise the sum of 4,500,000
l
An act for more effectually securing the Payment of the Debts of Traders.
An act for suspending the operation of an act of the 36th year of his present majesty, for the further Support and Maintenance of Curates, &c.
An act for granting to his majesty a certain sum of money out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain, and for applying certain monies therein mentioned for the Service of the year 1807, and for further appropriating the Supplies granted in this session of parliament.
APPENDIX
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
An Account of the Amount of all EXEMPTIONS granted to Foreigners, in respect of the Duty on Dividends, in the various Funds of Great Britain, and on the Dividends of the East-India and South-Sea Companies; under the Property-Tax; to the latest Period to which the same can be made up.
Exemptions on Dividends, payable on the 5th July 1806.
Principal.
Dividend.
Duty.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
3-per-Cent. Consolidated Annuities
12,451,388
6
7
186,770
16
5
18,677
1
7
East-India Stock
491,598
14
7
25,808
18
8
2,580
17
10
South-Sea Stock
1,133,580
4
9
19,837
13
1
1,983
15
3
5-per-Cent. Navy Annuities
158,407
10
0
3,960
3
9
396
0
4
New South-Sea Annuities
564,663
12
2
8,469
19
1
846
19
11
South-Sea Annuities 1751
162,630
16
8
2,439
9
3
243
18
11
3-per-Cent. Annuities 1726
104,988
6
8
1,574
16
6
157
9
8
Irish Tontine
7,447
15
4
3,723
17
8
372
7
9
Imperial 3-per-Cent. Annuities
63,002
15
6
945
0
10
94
10
1
Imperial Annuities
619
0
0
309
10
0
30
19
0
253,840
5
3
25,384
0
4
Exemptions on Dividends, payable on the 10th January 1806.
3-per-Cent. Reduced Annuities
2,129,999
8
10
31,949
19
10
3,194
19
10
4-per-Cent. Annuities
769,830
4
2
15,396
12
1
1,539
13
2
5-per-Cent. Irish Annuities
8,891
10
0
222
5
9
22
4
6
Irish Annuities
54
15
10
27
7
11
2
14
9
Old South-Sea Annuities
524,041
13
4
7,860
12
6
786
1
3
Long Annuities
5,955
7
0
2,977
13
6
297
15
4
Short Annuities
3,070
9
8
1,535
4
10
153
10
6
5-per-Cent. Annuities 1797
35,583
6
8
889
11
8
88
19
2
60,859
8
1
6,085
18
6
Exemptions on Dividends, payable on the 5th January 1807.
3-per-Cent. Consolidated Annuities
4,955,777
15
6
74,336
13
4
7,433
13
4
5-per-Cent. Navy Annuities
47,561
3
4
1,189
0
7
118
18
0
New South-Sea Annuities
198,543
17
8
2,978
3
2
297
16
4
3-per-Cent. Annuities 1726
99,661
13
4
1,494
18
6
149
9
10
3-per-Cent. Imperial Annuities
8,580
0
0
128
14
0
12
17
4
Imperial Annuities
88
0
0
44
0
0
4
8
0
South-Sea Annuities 1751
34,147
15
6
512
4
4
51
4
5
South-Sea Stock
350,970
4
8
6,141
19
7
614
3
11
East-India Stock
141,779
8
10
7,443
8
5
744
6
10
94,269
1
11
9,426
18
0
This Account contains all Exemptions granted upon the Dividends which have become payable Since the Duty was stopped at the Bank of England. Previous to that Period, the Agents to Foreigners entitled to Exemptions did not pay the Duty, but omitted, for the most part, to claim the Exemptions in the manner required by the Act. Any Account of the Exemptions actually granted upon former Dividends would, therefore, afford no criterion to judge of the Exemptions to which the Parties were entitled.
The Total Annual Amount of Exemptions may be estimated at nearly £.63,000, being double the Amount of the Exemptions granted upon the Dividends payable on the 5th of July and 10th of October 1806.
Office for Taxes 24th February 1807.
WILLIAM LOWNDES.
BARNE BARNE.
EDWARD MEDOWS.
HENRY HODGSON.
THOMAS DAVIS LAM
iii
Return of the Effective Strength of the REGULAR FORCES, at the latest Period to which the same can be made up; distinguishing the British from the Foreign Troops, and the Cavalry from the Infantry, and the Numbers serving Abroad and at Home.
Adjust.-General's Office, July 23, 1807
Rank and File.
Rank and File.
British.
Foreign.
Total.
Cavalry.
Infantry.
Total.
Cavalry
23,295
3,020
26,315
At Home
20,041
61,447
81,488
Infantry
129,263
27,298
156,561
Abroad
6,274
93,114
101,388
Total
152,558
30,318
182,876
Total
26,315
156,561
182,876
HARRY CALVERT, A. G.
Return of the Effective Strength of the MILITIA FORCES in Great Britain and Ireland, at the latest Period to which the same can be made up.
Adjut.-General's Office, July 23, 1807.
Rank and File.
Great Britain
53,810
Ireland
24,180
Total
77,990
HARRY CALVERT, A. G.
Return of the Effective Force of the VOLUNTEERS of Great Britain; distinguishing Infantry, Cavalry, and Artillery; as far as the same can be ascertained from the latest Returns.
Field-Officers
Captains.
Subalterns.
Staff-Officers.
Serjeants.
Trumpeters or Drummers
Rank and File.
Infantry
1,217
3,710
7,543
1,781
13,473
6,623
254,544
Cavalry
162
496
1,040
760
1,546
523
25,342
Artillery
25
129
253
45
505
209
9,420
Total
1,404
4,335
8,836
2,586
15,524
7,355
289,306
Whitehall, July 18, 1807.
J. BECKETT.
An Account of the BRITISH and FOREIGN SHIPPING employed in the Trade of Great Britain, in Three Years, ending the 5th of January 1807: Shewing the Number of Vessels, Tons, and Men, entered Inwards, and cleared Out, under each Year.
INWARDS.
British.
Foreign.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
In the Year
. . .
1804
10,508
1,395,387
82,979
4,271
607,299
30,744
In the Year
. . .
1805
11,414
1,494,290
87,166
4,517
691,883
34,733
In the Year
. . .
1806
12,118
1,482,664
88,998
3,793
612,904
31,354
OUTWARDS.
British.
Foreign.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
In the Year
. . .
1804
11,131
1,463,286
93,748
4,093
587,849
30,507
In the Year
. . .
1805
11,608
1,495,209
94,408
3,932
605,821
30,924
In the Year
. . .
1806
12,
1,486,302
94,557
3,459
568,170
29,632
Custom-House, London, Office of the Reg. Gen. of Shipping, July 8, 1807.
T. E. WILLOUGHBY, Reg. Gen.
v
Abstract Statement of the PUBLIC INCOME of Great Britain, for the Year ended 5th Jan. 1807.
Heads of Revenue.
Gross Receipt.
Net Produce.
Paid into Excheqr.
ORDINARY REVENUES.
Permanent and Annual Taxes.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
Customs
England
8,842,775
15
1
¾
7,184,344
17
8
½
6,669,362
1
9
¼
Customs
Scotland
829,014
0
0
589,704
7
0
½
387,417
0
0
Customs
Great Britain
9,671,789
15
1
¾
7,774,049
4
9
7,056,779
1
9
¼
Excise
England
17,540,324
8
5
¾
15,983,378
7
11
15,934,255
16
5
Excise
Scotland
1,648,218
0
6
1,393,835
3
5
½
1,056,600
0
0
Excise
Great Britain
19,188,542
8
11
¾
17,377,213
11
4
½
16,990,855
16
5
Stamps
England
4,324,345
13
5
¾
4,053,617
15
7
¾
3,874,516
7
11
Stamps
Scotland
294,345
7
9
275,295
12
5
258,000
0
0
Stamps
Great Britain
4,618,691
1
2
¾
4,328,913
8
0
¾
4,132,516
7
11
Land and Assessed Taxes
England
6,392,144
2
9
6,126,627
12
10
¼
5,614,889
6
7
Land and Assessed Taxes
Scotland
329,400
9
8
311,632
10
10
¼
201,099
19
11
½
Land and Assessed Taxes
Great Britain
6,721,544
12
5
6,438,260
3
8
½
5,815,989
6
6
½
Post Office
England
1,497,010
10
2
1,136,901
6
10
992,998
1
3
Post Office
Scotland
177,299
17
6
154,834
17
2
½
108,001
18
9
Post Office
Great Britain
1,674,310
7
8
1,291,736
4
0
½
1,101,000
0
0
1
s.
England
53,160
8
11
½
52,780
2
0
½
50,584
12
4
1
s.
Scotland
4,555
2
2
½
4,384
4
3
½
4,384
0
0
1
s.
Great Britain
57,715
11
2
57,164
6
4
54,968
12
4
6
d.
England
60,931
6
7
¼
60,546
4
9
¼
60,545
16
2
¼
6
d.
Scotland
3,152
17
10
¼
2,733
3
9
¾
2,733
3
9
¾
6
d.
Great Britain
64,084
4
6
63,279
8
7
63,279
0
0
Hackney Coaches
29,169
2
10
¾
25,940
17
3
½
25,600
0
0
Hawkers and Pedlars
14,555
0
0
11,465
19
8
11,285
0
0
Total Permanent and Annual Duties
42,040,402
4
0
37,368,023
3
9
¾
35,252,273
4
11
¾
Hana
Small Branches of the Hereditary Revenue.
per 2,000
0
0
Alienation Fines
11,540
0
4
8,535
17
8
5,203
0
3
Post Fines
4,040
12
8
¼
4,040
12
8
¼
0
0
0
Seizures
15,788
0
6
15,788
0
6
15,788
0
6
Compositions
1
16
8
1
16
8
1
16
8
Proffers
620
19
0
620
19
0
620
19
0
Crown Lands
67,790
10
9
½
65,357
16
8
¾
966
13
4
Extraordinary Resources.
WAR TAXES.Customs
England
2,787,189
13
4
2,522,874
6
4
2,473,351
10
4
¼
WAR TAXES.Customs
Scotland
310,264
11
10
¾
256,370
8
8
¾
203,683
0
0
WAR TAXES.Customs
Great Britain
3,097,454
5
2
¾
2,779,244
15
0
¾
2,677,034
10
4
¼
WAR TAXES. Excise
England
5,878,045
8
2
½
5,804,881
3
5
5,804,811
16
5
WAR TAXES. Excise
Scotland
452,123
7
6
443,627
19
9
¾
388,400
0
0
WAR TAXES. Excise
Great Britain
6,330,168
15
8
½
6,248,509
3
2
¾
6,193,211
16
5
WAR TAXES. Property Tax
England
5,902,765
9
9
¼
5,747,114
9
5
½
5,747,114
9
5
½
WAR TAXES. Property Tax
Scotland
242,494
7
6
236,100
0
0
236,100
0
0
WAR TAXES. Property Tax
Great Britain
6,145,259
17
3
¼
5,983,214
9
5
½
5,983,214
9
5
½
WAR TAXES. Arrears of Income Duty
16,827
12
4
¼
16,383
17
9
¼
16,383
17
9
¼
WAR TAXES. Arrears of Taxes collected under the Aid and Contribution Act
471
15
0
¾
459
6
3
½
459
6
3
½
Lottery, Net Profit
498,249
10
0
476,410
4
0
476,410
4
0
Monies paid on Account of the Interest of Loans raised for the Service of Ireland
1,751,663
0
4
1,751,663
0
4
1,751,663
0
4
On Account of the Commissioners, appointed by Act 35 Geo. III. for Issuing Exchequer Bills for Grenada
73,000
0
0
73,000
0
0
73,000
0
0
Fees of Regulated Exchequer Offices
52,290
18
1
52,290
18
1
52,290
18
1
Produce of sundry Magazines, &c. sold on Account of Government
7,000
0
0
7,000
0
0
7,000
0
0
Monies paid on Account of the Surplus Revenue of the Isle of Man
6,526
10
1
½
6,526
10
1
½
6,526
10
1
½
Savings under the Regulations adopted with respect to the Pay of Military Chaplains
33,396
6
0
33,396
6
0
33,396
6
0
Imprest Money repaid by sundry Public Accountants
90,075
13
5
90,075
13
5
90,075
13
5
Other Monies Paid to the Public
1,492
18
1
¾
1,492
18
1
¾
1,492
18
1
¾
Total
Independent of Loans
60,244,061
5
8
½
54,982,035
8
11
¾
52,639,013
5
1
½
Loans paid into the Exchequer, including £.2,000,000 for the Service of Ireland
19,699,263
12
1
19,699,263
12
1
19,699,263
12
1
GRAND TOTAL
£
79,943,324
17
9
½
74,681,299
1
0
¾
72,338,276
17
2
½
Note.—
s
d
l
s
d
l
s
d
l
s
d
25th March.
N. VANSITTA
vii
An Account of the INCOME of the CONSOLIDATED FUND of Great Britain, for the Year ended 5th January 1807.
INCOME.
CHARGE.
Actual Payment
Future
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Net Produce of the
Custom Duties
4,048,807
7
4
¾
Charge on account of the Public Debt
24,694,082
5
2
½
24,671,942
11
10
¼
Excise
13,829,170
14
3
CIVIL LIST.— His Majesty's Household
898,000
0
0
898,000
0
0
Stamps
3,057,877
19
3
Ditto per 44 G. III.
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
Incidents
5,670,407
19
10
Courts of Justice.—Judges of England and Wales, in Augmentation of their Salaries
13,050
0
0
13,050
0
0
Surplus of Sugar, Malt, and Tobacco, annually granted
2,023,274
4
3
¾
Land-Tax on Pensions, annis 1799, 1800, 1801, 1802, 1803, 1804, 1805, 1806
1,233,375
14
7
Aaron Graham, Esq. Inspector of the temporary Places of Confinement of Felons, &c.
350
0
0
350
0
0
Arrears of Income Duty, 1799, 1800, 1801
13,383
17
9
¼
W. Baldwin, Esq. Receiver of the 7 Offices of Police
15,216
13
0
½
Uncertain.
Arrears of Additional Assessed Taxes, 1798
459
6
3
½
Patrick Colquboun, Esq. ditto Thames Police Office
7,864
14
2
4
s
2,500
0
0
Keeper of the Hanaper in Chancery
2,504
14
1
Money reserved on account of Nominees appointed by the Lords of the Treasury, in Tontine, 1789
23,207
13
4
¾
John Bedford, Esq. Chief Justice of the Admiralty Court in the Island of Barbaoes
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Monies paid into the Treasury by divers Persons, being small Balances due to the Public
218,381
12
7
¾
Henry Moreton Dyer, Esq.
Ditto
Bahamas
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
John Sewell, Esq.
Ditto
Malta
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Imprest Monies
45,400
13
1
½
Alexander Croke, Esq.
Ditto
America
3,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, for Interest, Management, and £.1 per Cent. on Loans raised in Great Britain, for the Service of Ireland, 1797, 1798, 1799, 1800, 1801, and 1802
912,738
9
8
Henry John Hincheliffe, Esq.
Ditto
Jamaica
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
William Territt, Esq.
Ditto
Bermudas
3,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
The Sheriffs of England and Wales
4,000
0
0
4,000
0
0
Deficiencies of Judges' Salaries
5,138
14
10
½
Uncertain.
MINT.—Master of His Majesty's Mint in England
10,350
0
0
13,800
0
0
Total Income of the Consolidated Fund, applicable towards paying the Charge existing at 5th Jan. 1803
31,078,985
12
6
¼
Receiver of the Fees in the Office of the Mint
2,704
10
6
Uncertain.
Master of His Majesty's Mint in Scotland
1,200
0
0
1,200
0
0
Salaries and Allowances
119,227
18
11
25,750
0
0
DUTIES pro Anno 1803.
Parliamentary Pensions
291,644
2
5
287,159
14
10
Bounties:—For the Growth of Hemp and Flax
2,956
13
8
2,956
13
8
For the better Improvement of the Port of London
20,000
0
0
Uncertain.
Surplus Duty on Receipts, 1803, per Act 43 Geo. III. c. 126
59,878
0
4
The Speaker of the House of Commons
et. al.
90,000
0
0
0
0
0
Reserved out of Consolidated Customs, per Act 43G. III. c. 68, from July 1803, at £.62,500 per Quarter.
250,000
0
0
Ditto for Interest on 90,000
l.
4,364
7
8
0
0
0
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, on account of Loan of £.2,000,000, for the Service of Ireland
136,496
1
3
Ditto in trust for Mrs. Susannah Bolton, one of the Sisters of Earl Nelson
10,000
0
0
0
0
0
Ditto ditto Mrs. Catherine Matcham, ditto
10,000
0
0
0
0
0
Total Income of Duties pro anno 1803
446,374
1
7
Total Charge upon the Consolidated Fund created prior to 5th Jan. 1803, as it stood in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1807
26,276,654
7
11
¼
25,990,209
0
4
¼
DUTIES pro Anno 1804.
Surplus of Consolidated Stamp Duties, by Act 44 G. III. c. 98, to commence from 10th Oct. 1804
975,270
17
8
DEBT incurred in respect of 12,000,000
l.
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, for Interest and Management, and £.1 per Cent. on £.4,500,000, Part of £.14,500,000, raised by Act 44 Geo. III. for Ireland
331,205
8
1
Annuities on 9,600,000
l.
293,320
0
0
292,320
0
Ditto on 9,600,000
l.
292,320
0
0
292,320
0
0
Total Income of Duties pro Anno 1804
1,306,476
5
9
Ditto for 56½ Years, at 6
s.
d.
38,933
2
6
38,933
2
6
DUTIES pro Anno 1805.
Ditto at 1 per Cent. on the above Sums, payable to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt.
195,765
5
7
195,765
5
7
Duty on Goods, 1805
308,788
15
2
¼
Total Charge for Debt incurred in the Year 1803
819,338
8
1
819,938
8
1
Ditto on Legacies
39,489
10
8
Taken from Consolidated Letter Money, being the estimated Amount of Additional Duty on the Postage, imposed by Act 45 G. III. c. 11
176,333
6
8
DEBT incurred in respect of 14,500,000
l.,
Annuities on 11,890,000
l.
362,050
10
0
362,050
10
0
Duties taken out of Consolidated Excise, by 45 G. III. cap. Salt, Auctions, Bricks and Tiles, Coffee, Cyder and Perry, Glass, Vinegar, Wire
663,035
2
2
Ditto on 14,500,000
l.
441,525
0
0
441,525
0
0
Money paid by Messrs. Puget for Interest, &c. and 1 per Cent. on £.4,000,000 for Ireland
293,385
19
6
Ditto at 1 per Cent. on the above Sums, payable to the Commissrs. for the Reduction of the National Debt
263,900
0
0
263,900
0
0
Total Income of Duties pro Anno 1805
1,481,032
14
2
Ditto on 2,716,814
l.
s.
d.
83,333
5
8
¾
82,727
0
1
DUTIES pro Anno 1806.
Ditto at 1 per Cent. on the above Sum
27,168
2
11
27,168
2
11
Brought from Consolidated Excise, by 46 G. III.c.44.
Wines, 1803
188,604
0
0
Total Charge for Debt incurred in the Year 1804
1,177,981
18
7
¾
1,177,370
13
0
Ditto, 1804
126,931
0
0
Tea
14,779
0
0
DEBT incurred in respect of 22,500,000
l.
1,893,168
4
3
½
1,876,685
6
7
½
Wines, 1803 and 1804, brought to Duties 1806
34,708
0
0
10 per Cent. on Assessed Taxes
Money paid by Messrs. Puget on Part of £.2,000,000,
6,800
0
0
DEBT incurred in respect of 20,000,000
l.
778,370
18
4
¾
778,370
18
4
¾
raised by 46 Geo. III. for Ireland
77,837
1
10
Total Income of Duties,
pro anno 1806
449,659
1
10
Total Charge upon Consolidated Fund, created prior to 5th an. 1803, as it stood in the year ending 5th Jan. 1807
26,276,654
7
11
¼
25,990,209
0
4
¼
Ditto,
at 5th Jan. 1807
31,078,985
12
6
¼
Ditto,
pro anno 1803
446,374
1
7
Ditto,
pro anno 1804
1,306,476
5
9
Total Charge for Debt incurred in the year
1803
819,338
8
1
819,338
8
1
Ditto,
pro anno 1805
1,481,032
14
2
¼
Ditto
ditto
1804
1,177,981
18
7
¾
1,177,370
13
0
Ditto
ditto
1805
1,893,168
4
3
½
1,876,685
6
7
½
Total Income of consolidated Fund in the Year ended 5th January 1807
£.
34,762,527
15
10
½
Total Charge upon Consolidated Fund, in the year ended 5th Jan. 1807
£.
30,945,513
17
4
¼
30,641,974
6
5
½
Exchequer, 16th Day of March 1807.
WM ROSE HAWORTH
xi
An ACCOUNT of the NET PRODUCE of all the PERMANENT TAXES, and WAR TAXES, in the Quarters and Years ended the 5th January 1806, and the 5th January 1807.
In the Quarters ended
In the Years ended
5th Jan. 1806.
5th Jan. 1807.
5th Jan. 1806.
5th Jan. 1807.
Customs.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Consolidated, after reserving £.62,500. per Quarter, by Act 43 Geo. III cap. 68
900228
2
1
1167517
2
3
3790532
1
5
4005965
2
0
¼
Quarantine Duty
4287
16
2
2403
3
5
17362
1
4
¼
15093
2
4
£.4½ per Cent.
239
10
0
1318
3
1
½
18530
8
8
½
6790
17
3
½
Canal and Dock Duty
8172
11
7
8924
19
7
½
31965
17
5
½
35749
3
0
½
Excise.
Consolidated
3153100
6
2
½
3395073
0
0
13718927
12
3
½
13829170
14
3
Stamps.
Reserved out of Consolidated Duties 769,
l.
s.
d.
756936
5
10
756523
19
2
3024180
4
4
3017585
17
8
Compositions for Stamps, per Bank
8000
0
0
8000
0
0
38000
0
0
32000
0
0
Licences for selling Lottery Tickets
5108
2
0
8292
1
7
5108
2
0
8292
1
7
Incidents.
Letter Money
231166
13
4
231166
13
4
950500
0
0
924666
13
4
Arrears of Duties repealed by Act 43 Geo. III. cap. 161.; out of
Houses and Windows
26453
12
1
½
440
5
8
½
178932
14
11
32460
7
2
½
Inhabited Houses
11273
14
8
27
16
6
½
77705
9
4
¾
16720
18
2
¼
Horses for Riding
16871
13
9
465
18
4
½
68421
19
5
¼
20702
19
0
¼
Horses for Husbandry
10776
9
4
606
19
7
59756
16
6
½
22279
8
45
Male Servants
10593
5
8
484
15
7
37773
17
1
½
16134
15
5
½
Carriages
12106
2
4
1215
12
5
59117
3
6
½
28558
5
10
¾
Dogs
5370
4
0
718
14
11
28174
17
11
14097
15
9
£
Arrears
0
0
0
0
9
4
0
0
6
7
11
7
¾
£
172
3
2
¾
0
0
0
172
3
2
⅔
50
0
0
Clocks and Watches
689
5
0
0
0
0
689
5
0
845
1
5
Hawkers and Pedlars
1110
0
0
1930
0
0
8145
0
0
11635
0
0
Hackney Coaches and Chairs
4390
0
0
4270
0
0
24325
2
0
25857
0
0
6
d.
Pensions
19340
0
0
27279
0
0
57340
0
0
63279
0
0
1
s.
Salaries
18445
0
0
17028
0
0
50774
6
9
54968
12
4
Seizures
31289
17
8
¼
556
16
1
83191
5
6
¼
15788
0
6
Proffers
13
14
5
13
7
9
678
2
0
620
19
0
Compositions
0
0
0
0
0
0
2
13
4
1
16
8
Rent of Alum Mines
0
0
0
0
0
0
960
0
0
960
0
0
Ditto of a Light House
0
0
0
0
0
0
6
13
4
6
13
4
Alienation Duty
0
0
0
808
16
7
3977
18
8
9000
3
4
First Fruits of the Clergy
0
0
0
0
0
0
3847
14
3
¼
4156
10
0
Tenths of ditto
0
0
0
0
0
0
9872
2
4
½
9834
17
10
Fines and Forfeitures
0
0
0
224
16
0
1127
8
3
681
9
8
Arrears of
Female Servants
1785
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
35
13
2
Hair-Powder Certificates
1795
2252
19
10
½
661
13
9
22639
16
7
12463
16
1
Horse-Dealers' Licences
1796
911
12
10
½
99
9
11
½
3629
5
4
2089
1
5
Armorial Bearings
1798
1885
16
1
½
221
0
9
½
11488
5
4
½
6314
8
7
By Act 43 Geo. III. cap. 68.
Hair Powder Certificates
13992
13
8
16449
3
9
34592
13
8
43444
8
3
½
Horse-Delears' Licences
1408
19
5
2352
14
0
2878
19
5
5747
0
6
Armorial Bearings
7866
0
4
½
8173
9
4
½
16556
0
4
½
11753
5
2
Reserved out of Houses and Windows, by Act 43 Geo. III. cap. 161, at £.474,474. per Quarter, from April 1804
638440
5
4
½
605258
18
0
1778803
9
10
½
1903310
9
1
Inhabited Houses
103865
4
3
½
144844
11
6
½
471185
4
3
½
584860
2
8
Horses for Riding
182148
6
2
209957
2
8
496119
6
2
583986
5
4
½
Horses and Mules
159986
4
10
½
171755
10
1
422689
4
10
½
501667
10
2
Male Servants
67650
11
0
½
106404
2
1
249820
11
0
½
338435
18
11
¾
Carriages
81308
4
7
½
91407
12
6
½
260088
4
7
½
302349
3
2
Dogs
32165
0
11
43913
12
1
90045
0
11
112628
5
0
¾
Carried forward
£.
6530016
9
0
½
7036789
12
4
26210635
4
2
½
26643046
5
10
¼
xiii
NET PRODUCE, of the PERMANENT and WAR TAXES, in the Quarters and Years ended 5th Jan. 1806, and 5th Jan. 1807.—
Continued.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
Brought forward
6530016
9
0
½
7036789
12
4
26210635
4
2
½
26643046
7
10
¼
Duties pro Anno
Brought from Consolidated Customs, after reserving as directed by Act 43 Geo. III. cap. 68.
62500
0
0
62500
0
0
250000
0
0
250000
0
0
Surplus of the Duty on Receipts, 1803, after ditto, by Act ditto, cap. 126.
12429
13
8
12842
0
4
55283
15
8
59878
0
4
Ditto, Houses and Windows, 1804, ditto, by Act ditto, cap. 161. from April 1804
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
£.
6604946
2
8
½
7112131
12
8
26513918
17
10
½
26952924
6
2
¼
Duties pro Anno
Surplus of Consolidated Stamp Duties, after reserving, as directed by Act 44 Geo. III. cap. 98. from October 1804
334536
8
8
301340
16
2
793434
10
2
975270
17
8
£.
6939482
11
4
½
7413472
8
10
27307353
8
0
½
27928195
3
10
¼
Duties pro Anno
Taken from Consolidated Letter Money, the estimated Amount of the additional Duty on the Postage of Letters, imposed by Act 45 Geo. III. cap. 11
16833
6
8
31833
6
8
122500
0
0
176333
6
8
Goods, &c. Anno 1805
61884
17
6
78030
19
0
½
207186
8
10
308788
15
2
½
Legacies
3033
12
2
12981
10
8
4957
12
2
39489
10
8
Duties taken out of Consolidated Excise, by Act 45 Geo. III.
Salt
112534
0
6
¼
117071
0
0
247356
0
0
463814
19
1
Auctions
8175
0
0
8761
0
0
25015
0
0
35392
0
0
Bricks and Tiles
23874
0
0
22630
0
0
40245
0
0
40464
0
0
Coffee
5722
0
0
7080
0
0
14259
0
0
31558
0
0
Cyder and Perry
634
6
8
1198
0
0
2254
18
7
¼
5544
6
8
Glass
19897
0
0
10300
0
0
63169
0
0
67721
0
0
Vinegar
1840
13
4
2344
0
0
5840
8
9
12749
13
4
Wire
1477
13
3
¼
1410
0
0
4516
4
3
¾
5791
3
1
£.
7195389
1
6
7707112
5
2
½
28044653
0
8
½
29115841
18
6
½
Duties pro Anno
Wines, 1803
brt to Duties 1806, by 46 G. III. c.44.
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
20593
0
0
Ditto, 1804
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
14115
0
0
Brought from Consold Excise, by 46 G.III. cap. 44.
Wines, 1803
0
0
0
65257
0
0
0
0
0
188604
0
0
Ditto, 1804
0
0
0
44927
0
0
0
0
0
126931
0
0
Tea
0
0
0
4596
0
0
0
0
0
14779
0
0
£.
0
0
0
6800
0
0
0
0
0
6800
0
0
£.
7195389
1
6
7828692
5
2
½
28044653
0
8
½
29487663
18
6
½
Surplus of Duties annually granted, after discharging Exchequer Bills charged thereon.
Sugar & Malt
534047
2
6
186635
17
7
¼
764345
11
7
916588
4
3
¾
Malt
79087
0
0
101218
0
0
764796
0
0
902971
0
0
Tobacco
42313
0
0
31343
0
0
202745
0
0
203715
0
0
£.
7851836
4
0
8147889
2
9
¾
29776539
12
3
½
31510938
2
10
¼
Duties to discharge 2,000,000
l.
Sugar &Malt
673485
16
7
406143
6
3
½
1590005
11
0
½
1560343
17
11
Malt
154929
0
0
225202
0
0
162880
0
0
239364
0
0
Tobacco
64774
0
0
57241
0
0
265685
0
0
238386
0
0
£.
8745025
0
7
8836475
9
1
¼
31795110
3
4
33549032
0
9
¼
War Taxes:
British Spirits, 1803
86591
0
0
145883
0
0
760547
0
0
759316
0
0
Foreign Ditto
228476
0
0
253710
0
0
825903
3
6
957350
1
3
Wines
66650
0
0
0
0
0
366082
0
0
85655
0
0
Malt
580654
0
0
793082
0
0
2366733
0
0
2812291
0
0
Goods and Shipping
449140
19
5
½
450438
10
11
¾
1636167
14
8
1564089
14
5
Tea
381475
0
0
141249
0
0
1711868
0
0
1286150
16
5
Sweets
165
0
0
140
0
0
4073
16
6
4510
18
9
Property Duty
92615
18
10
23466
2
1
½
928585
17
8
181780
17
¼
Ditto, 1804
712102
14
7
132911
1
0
¼
3278186
8
1
½
959935
13
11
Wines
51785
0
0
0
0
0
264743
0
0
91765
0
0
Goods and Wares
167076
1
4
252223
5
6
¾
828859
1
10
½
821064
18
2
¼
Property Duty, 1805
92800
0
0
1070402
3
9
199750
0
0
3833566
10
2
Tobacco, 1806
0
0
0
65166
0
0
0
0
0
163965
0
0
Goods and Wares
0
0
0
126273
11
5
¾
0
0
0
291879
17
9
Property Duty
0
0
0
3640
0
0
0
0
0
1007931
7
11
£.
2909531
14
14
1
13171
4
14821
2
xv
An Account of the Value of all IMPORTS into, and all EXPORTS from, GREAT BRITAIN, for Eighteen Years, ending the 5th January 1807; distinguishing each Year, and distinguishing the Value of Imports from the East Indies and China, from the Value of all other Imports: And distinguishing the Value of British Produce and Manufactures Exported, from the Value of Foreign Articles Exported; together with the Difference between the Official Value and the Declared Value of British Produce and Manufactures Exported in the Year ending the 5th of January 1807.
Official Value of Imports from
Official Value of
East Indies and China.
All other Parts.
British Produce and Manufactures Exported.
*
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Year ending 5th Jan.
1790
3,362,545
0
0
14,458,557
0
0
13,779,506
0
0
5,379,965
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1791
3,149,870
0
0
15,981,015
0
0
14,921,084
0
0
4,979,797
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1792
3,698,713
0
0
15,971,069
0
0
16,810,018
0
0
5,670,412
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1793
2,701,547
0
0
16,957,810
0
0
18,336,851
0
0
6,129,998
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1794
3,499,023
0
0
15,757,693
0
0
13,892,268
0
0
5,784,417
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1795
4,458,475
0
0
17,830,418
0
0
16,725,402
0
0
8,386,043
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1796
5,760,810
0
0
16,976,079
0
0
16,338,213
0
0
8,509,126
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1797
3,372,689
0
0
19,814,630
0
0
19,102,220
0
0
8,923,848
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1798
3,942,384
0
0
17,071,572
0
0
16,903,103
0
0
9,412,610
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1799
7,626,930
0
0
20,230,959
0
0
19,672,503
0
0
10,617,526
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1800
4,284,805
0
0
22,552,626
0
0
24,084,213
0
0
9,556,144
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1801
4,942,275
0
0
25,628,329
0
0
24,304,283
0
0
13,815,837
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1802
5,424,441
0
0
27,371,115
0
0
25,699,809
0
0
12,087,047
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1803
5,794,906
0
0
25,647,412
0
0
26,993,129
0
0
14,418,837
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1804
6,348,887
0
0
21,643,577
0
0
22,252,027
0
0
9,326,468
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1805
5,214,621
0
0
23,986,869
0
0
23,935,793
0
0
10,515,574
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1806
6,072,160
0
0
24,272,468
0
0
25,004,337
0
0
9,950,508
0
0
Year ending 5th Jan.
1807
25,094,089
0
0
27,403,653
0
0
9,124,479
0
0
Note.—The Value of British Produce and Manufactures Exported, computed at the Average Prices Current, was, in the Year ending 5th January 1806, £.41,068,942.
*
The Account of Imports from India and China, for the last Year, cannot be yet prepared.
Inspector-General's Office, Custom-House, London, 24th March, 1807.
WILLIAM IRVING, Inspector-Gen
1
t
An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their TONNAGE, which have been Annually Built and Registered in the several Ports of the British Empire, between 5th January 1805 and 5th January 1807.
Vessels.
Tonnage.
In the Year
being the Account
1001
89,584
delivered last Year,
and now corrected
In the Year 1806
746
67,511
Copies of the Certificates of Registry granted at many of the Ports in the Plantations, for the Year ending 5th January 1807, not being yet received, it is presumed that several Vessels may have been Built at such Ports, which could not be included in this Account.
Custom-House, London, Office of the Register-General of Shipping, 23d March, 1807.
T. E. WILLOUGHBY,
Register-General of Shipping.
xvii
Account of the PUBLIC EXPENDITURE of Great Britain, for the Year ended 5th January 1807.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
I.
Interest &Charges on the permanent Debt of Great Britain, Appx. (A.)
29,026,172
12
0¾
II.
The Interest on Exchequer Bills, (B.)
1,310,686
18
9
III.
The Civil List, (C.)
958,000
0
0
IV.
Other Charges
Courts of Justice
62,124
6
2
Mint
14,254
10
6
Allow. to Roy. Fam.
291,644
2
5
Sals. &Allowances
36,268
0
3¾
Bounties
220,281
3
4
1,582,572
2
8¾
V.
Civil Government of Scotland, (D.)
83,750
14
3¼
VI.
Other Payments in Anticipation, (E.)
Bounties for Fisheries, Manufactures, Corn, &c.
342,163
4
3
Pensions on the Heredit, Revenue
27,700
0
0
Militia and Deserters Warrants, &c.
164,397
16
8
534,261
0
11
VII.
Navy, (F.)—Salaries to the Offices
123,600
0
0
For Wages, Bounty, Flag-pay, Half-pay, and Pensions
2,651,895
8
6
For Dock Yards, Building of Ships, Stores, Pilotage, &c.
6,569,813
4
10
For Marine Service on Shore
437,500
0
0
9,782,808
13
4
The Victualling Department
4,380,081
11
6
Transort do. for Transports, Pri-
1,632,137
13
0
Miscellaneous Services
289,000
0
0
1,921,137
13
0
16,084,027
17
10
VIII.
Ordnance, (G.)
4,511,064
1
7
IX.
Army, (H.)—Ordinary Services, viz.
For Regulars, Fenc. Milit. Invalids, and Volunteer Corps
8,155,265
8
5
Barracks
347,417
19
4
Staff Officers &Offic. of Garrisons
189,955
4
1
Half-pay
213,000
0
0
Widows Pensions
26,000
0
0
Chelsea Hospital
189,712
0
8
Exchequer Fees
86,903
16
10
Pay of Public Offices
74,236
10
8
9,282,491
0
0
Extraordinary Services
5,828,999
7
8
15,111,490
7
8
X.
Loans, Remittances, and Advances to other Countries, Ireland, (l.)
1,768,000
0
0
XI.
Miscellaneous Services, (K.)
At Home
2,561,340
12
1
Abroad
205,352
8
10½
2,766,693
0
11½
72,778,718
16
9¼
Deduct Loan, &c. for Ireland
1,768,000
0
0
£.
*
71,010,718
16
9¼
*
25th March
N. B. The several Items under each head are stated in the Appendixes A, B, &c. above referred to—which follow.
App.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
I.
Interest &Charges on the permanent Debt of Great Britain, Appx. (A.)
29,026,172
12
0¾
II.
The Interest on Exchequer Bills, (B.)
1,310,686
18
9
III.
The Civil List, (C.)
958,000
0
0
IV.
Other Charges
Courts of Justice
62,124
6
2
Mint
14,254
10
6
Allow. to Roy. Fam.
291,644
2
5
Sals. &Allowances
36,268
0
3¾
Bounties
220,281
3
4
1,582,572
2
8¾
V.
Civil Government of Scotland, (D.)
83,750
14
3¼
VI.
Other Payments in Anticipation, (E.)
Bounties for Fisheries, Manufactures, Corn, &c.
342,163
4
3
Pensions on the Heredit, Revenue
27,700
0
0
Militia and Deserters Warrants, &c.
164,397
16
8
534,261
0
11
VII.
Navy, (F.)—Salaries to the Offices
123,600
0
0
For Wages, Bounty, Flag-pay, Half-pay, and Pensions
2,651,895
8
6
For Dock Yards, Building of Ships, Stores, Pilotage, &c.
6,569,813
4
10
For Marine Service on Shore
437,500
0
0
9,782,808
13
4
The Victualling Department
4,380,081
11
6
Transort do. for Transports, Pri-
1,632,137
13
0
Miscellaneous Services
289,000
0
0
1,921,137
13
0
16,084,027
17
10
VIII.
Ordnance, (G.)
4,511,064
1
7
IX.
Army, (H.)—Ordinary Services, viz.
For Regulars, Fenc. Milit. Invalids, and Volunteer Corps
8,155,265
8
5
Barracks
347,417
19
4
Staff Officers & Offic. of Garrisons
189,955
4
1
Half-pay
213,000
0
0
Widows Pensions
26,000
0
0
Chelsea Hospital
189,712
0
8
Exchequer Fees
86,903
16
10
Pay of Public Offices
74,236
10
8
9,282,491
0
0
Extraordinary Services
5,828,999
7
8
15,111,490
7
8
X.
Loans, Remittances, and Advances to other Countries, Ireland, (l.)
1,768,000
0
0
XI.
Miscellaneous Services, (K.)
At Home
2,561,340
12
1
Abroad
205,352
8
10½
2,766,693
0
11½
72,778,718
16
9¼
Deduct Loan, &c. for Ireland
1,768,000
0
0
£.
*
71,010,718
16
9¼
*This includes the Sum £.441,270. 15. 3¼. for Interest paid on Imperial Loans.
25th March
N.B. The several Items under each head are stated in the Appendixes A, B, &c. above referred to—which follow.
xix
APPENDIX (A. 1.)—An Account of the Monies paid out of the Receipt of His Majesty's Exchequer, in the Year ending the 5th Jan. 1807, towards satisfying the Charges of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT of Great Britain and Ireland, and Imperial Loans; distinguishing the Total Amount of the Sums applied for interest, Charges of Management, Sums applicable to its Reduction, and the usual Grants for the same Purpose.
INTEREST.
Annu
Charges of Management.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s
d.
Permanent Funded Debt of Great Britain
17,312,621
11
5
1,465,827
5
3
½
269,420
15
5
¾
Loans raised for the Service of Ireland
1,090,363
6
2
106,320
16
8
17,019
7
8
Imperial Loans
205,583
8
7
230,000
0
0
5,687
6
8
¼
18,608,568
6
2
1,802,148
1
11
½
292,127
9
10
1,802,148
1
11
½
292,127
9
10
£
20,702,843
17
11
½
Towards the Reduction of the Public Debt; viz.
£
s.
d.
Annual Issue by 26 G. III.
1,000,000
0
0
Ditto...42 do...
200,000
0
0
Annuities for Terms of Years
79,880
14
6
Annuities for Lives on which
50,308
5
7
Interest on Debt of Gr-Brit.
3,170,020
2
6
Ditto Ireland-do
93,320
15
8
Ditto Imperial-do
19,495
11
5
Annuity at £.1 per cent. on
3,710,303
4
5
¼
8,323,328
14
1
¼
7th Feb. 1807.
£
29,026,172
12
0
¾
APPENDIX (A. 2.)—An Account of the Total Amount of the Sums actually received by the COMMISSIONERS for the Reduction of the NATIONAL DEBT, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1807.
On Account of GREAT BRITAIN.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
By Annual Issue, 26 GEO. III
1,000,000
0
0
By Annual Issue, 42—
200,000
0
0
99 & 96 Anns
54,880
14
6
Anns. 1777
25,000
0
0
Expired and Unclaimed Anns. on Lives
50,308
5
7
£.1 per cent. per ann. on Capitals created by Loans raised from
3,273,191
5
2
¼
Interest on £.3 per cent. Annuities
3,058,224
2
6
Interest on £.4 per cents.
104,696
0
0
Interest on £.5 per cents.
7,100
0
0
7,773,400
7
9
¼
On Account of IRELAND.
£.1 per cent. per ann. on capitals created by Loans raised from
400,418
19
3
Interest on £.3 per cent. Anns
93,3
15
8
493,739
14
11
On Account of IMPERIAL.
£.1 per cent. per ann. on the Capital created by Loan 1797
36,693
0
0
Interest on 3 per cent. Imperial Anns.
19,495
11
5
56,188
11
5
Feb. 23, 1807.
£
8,323,328
14
1
¼
APPENDIX (B.) will be found in page xxiii
xxi
APPENDIX (C)—Charges upon the CONSOLIDATED FUND, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1807; exclusive of the Interest of the Public Debt, and of the payments upon Exchequer Bills.
CIVIL LIST.
£
s.
d.
PENSIONS.
For his Majesty's Household
898,000
0
0
Representatives of Arthur Onslow
3,000
0
0
Ditto, by 44 Geo. III. per ann.
60,000
0
0
Earl of Chatham
4,000
0
0
COURTS OF JUSTICE.
Lord Rodney
2,000
0
0
Lord Heathfield
1,500
0
0
The Judges of England and Wales,
18,188
14
10
½
Lady Dorchester
1,000
0
0
John Penn, Esq.
3,000
0
0
A. Graham, Esq. Inspector of the
350
0
0
Richard Penn, Esq.
1,000
0
0
His R. H. Duke of Clarence
12,000
0
0
His R. H. Duke of York
14,000
0
0
P. Colquhoun, Esq. Receiver of the
7,864
14
2
Her R. Highs. the Duchess of York
4,000
0
0
His R. H. the Prince of Wales
65,000
0
0
W. Baldwin, Esq. Receiver of the
15,216
13
0
½
His R. H. the Prince of Wales
30,000
0
0
Earl St. Vincent
2,000
0
0
Keeper of the Hanaper in Chan
2,504
4
1
Lord Duncan
2,000
0
0
His R. H. the D. of Kent
12,000
0
0
H. M. Dyer, Esq. Ch. J. Adm.
2,000
0
0
His R. H. the D. of Cumberland
12,000
0
0
Duke of Richmond
12,666
13
4
J. Bedford, Esq. do. Barbadoes
2,000
0
0
Sir William Henry Ashurst
2,000
0
0
J. Sewell, Esq. do. at Malta
2,000
0
0
Sir Beaumont Hotham, Knt.
2,000
0
0
W. Territt, Esq. do. at Bermudas
3,000
0
0
Sir Sidney Smith
1,000
0
0
Alex. Croke, Esq. do. Nova Scotia
3,000
0
0
Lady Abercrombie
2,000
0
0
H. I. Hinchcliffe, Esq. do Jamaica
2,000
0
0
His R. H. the D. of Sussex
12,000
0
0
Sheriffs of England and Wales
4,000
0
0
His R. H. the D. of Cambridge
12,000
0
0
MINT.
Lord Hutchinson
2,000
0
0
Sir James Saumarez
1,200
0
0
Master of, in England
10,350
0
0
Duke of Portland, for the Prince
16,000
0
0
T. Morrison, esq. Receiver of the Fees
2,704
10
6
Lord Borringdon and others, in
3,000
0
0
Master of, in Scotland
1,200
0
0
SALARIES & ALLOWANCES.
John Duke of Athol
2,531
0
0
½
Lady Viscountess Nelson
2,436
15
7
½
The Rt. Hon. C. Abbot, Speaker of
1,979
16
1
Sir Rich. Strachan
1,178
3
2
½
Lord Collingwood
2,436
15
7
½
Sir J. T. Duck worth
911
2
2
½
Lord Eldon
3,633
6
8
The Marquis of Bute, late one of
7,000
0
0
H. N. Willis, Esq. for Princess
3,500
0
0
P. Deare, Esq. late Deputy do.
300
0
0
Duke of Gloucester
7,000
0
0
E. Roberts, Esq. on the yearly Sum of 650l. formerly paid to the Au
650
0
0
Duchess Dowager of Gloucester
2,000
0
0
Her Highness Princess Sophia
2,500
0
0
Lord Nelson
6,091
19
0
¾
Commissioners for auditing the Pub
2,402
1
2
Duke of Grafton
3,435
0
0
Lord Rodney
4,623
6
7
¾
Salaries in the Office of Clerks of
14,235
12
5
His R. H. the D. of Clarence
3,000
0
0
His R. H. the D. of Kent
3,000
0
0
Inspector of Tontine Certificates
750
0
0
His R. H. the D. of Cumberland
3,000
0
0
Chief Cashier of the Bank of Eng
870
2
6
His R. H. the D. of Sussex
3,000
0
0
His R. H. the D. of Cambridge.
3,000
0
0
BOUNTIES.
Do. of South Sea Co. for do.
T. Marsham, Esq. Sec. to Com
500
0
0
For the Encouragement of the
2,956
13
8
Richard Clarke, Esq. Chamberlain
20,000
0
0
John Close, Esq. Contingent Ex
1,300
0
0
Payments made to the Owners and
82,960
2
0
John Williams, Esq. Secretary to
500
0
0
Rt. Hon. C. Abbot, Speaker of
90,000
0
0
The Chairman & Commissioners
3,994
6
6
¾
Do. for interest on £.90,000. at
4,364
7
8
The Chairman and Commissioners
1,786
1
7
Do. in trust for Mrs. Susannah Bol
10,000
0
0
Do. in trust for Mrs. C. Matcham do
10,000
0
0
26th April 1807.
£
2
8
¾
xxiii
APPENDIX (B.)—An Account of Interest paid on EXCHEQUER BILLS, from the 5th day of January 1806 to the 5th day of January 1807.
Under what Acts issued.
On what Funds charged.
£.
s.
d.
44 Geo. III.
Cap. 45.
Supply
Anno 1804
58,520
16
11
45
7.
Loan
1805
20,264
11
3
2
Aids
1805
507,340
11
0
118.
Supply
1805
393,353
4
5
119.
Vote of Credit
1805
128,261
11
4
120.
Supply
1805
76,643
16
8
Bank of England
46
6
Aids
1806
28,588
3
7
25.
Supply
1806
33
16
8
Bank Premium on Personal Estates, &c. and Malt Tax
97,680
6
11
Feb. 20, 1807.
£.1,310,686
18
9
APPENDIX (D.)—A List of all such Sums of Money as have been incurred, and become due, upon his Majesty's Establishment for CIVIL AFFAIRS within SCOTLAND, bearing Date the 19th Day of June 1761, for One Year: from 5th January 1806 inclusive to 5th January 1807 exclusive, made up by the Barons of Exchequer at Edinburgh £.83,750 14 3¼
APPENDIX (E. 1.)—An Account of the Amount of BOUNTIES paid in England and Scotland, out of the Revenues of Customs and Excise, between the 5th of Jan. 1806 and the 5th of Jan. 1807; being Payments in the Nature of Anticipation of Exchequer Issues.
ENGLAND.
SCOTLAND.
GREAT BRITAIN.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
CUSTOMS.
Bounties on Cotton and Linen Manufac
243,227
0
8
64,637
2
5
¼
307,864
3
1
¼
EXCISE.
Bounties on
British Spirits
20,304
19
5
¼
13,994
1
8
½
34,299
1
1
¾
Fish
Buss and Barrel Bounties, certified on the Excise,
£.
263,532
0
1
¼
78,631
4
1
¾
342,163
4
3
March 25th 1807
APPENDIX (E. 2.)—GENERAL POST OFFICE.—An Account of Pensions and Parliamentary GRANTS for the Year ended 5th January 1807.
His Grace the Duke of Marlborough
£.5,000
His Grace the Duke of Grafton
4,700
The heirs of the late Duke of Schomburg
4,000
Feb. 20th
£13,700
APPENDIX (E.3.) EXCISE.—An Account, shewing how the PUBLIC MONIES remaining in the Receipt of the Exchequer on 5th Jan. 1806, together with the Monies paid into the same during the Year ending 5th, Jan, 1807, and the Monies paid out of the Net Produce of the Revenues of the said Year, in Anticipation of the Exchequer Receipt, have been actually applied, so far as regards the Receipt of the Excise in England, and can be ascertained at the Excise Office.
PENSIONS, viz.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Duke of Grafton
9,000
0
0
Earl Cowper
2,000
0
0
Charles Boon, Esq. Moiety of the Earl of Bath's
1,500
0
0
Lord Melbourne's ditto
1,500
0
0
14,000
0
0
BOUNTIES, viz.
British Spirits
340
12
3
¼
Salted Provisions
19,964
7
2
20,304
19
5
¼
21st Feb.
£.
34,304
19
5
¼
xxv
APPENDIX (E. 4.)—An Account of Sums advanced by Receivers General of Land and Assessed Taxes, on Account of MILITIA, Deserters, Warrants, and other Disbursements, under various Acts of Parliament; between 5th Jan. 1806 and 5th Jan. 1807.
ENGLAND.
SCOTLAND.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Militia and Deserters Warrants
17,599
4
4
½
6,057
15
9
Volunteers
59,544
9
8
¾
22,172
18
5
¾
Defence Act
11,883
0
2
½
2,184
13
2
Army of Reserve
39,899
6
2
½
4,889
3
5
Yeomanry Cavalry
139
5
0
Population Act
28
0
4
£.
128,926
0
6
¼
35,471
16
1
¾
20th March
Total
£.
APPENDIX (F.)—Navy Office, 20th Feb. 1807. An Account, shewing the Amount of Monies received from his Majesty's Exchequer, for NAVAL SERVICES, between the 5th Jan. 1806, and 5th Jan. 1807; distinguishing the Services to which the same have been applied.
HEADS OF SERVICE.
SUM.
TOTAL
NAVY
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Salaries to the Admiralty, Navy, and Navy Pay Offices
123,600
0
0
Wages to Officers and Seamen
2,035,000
0
0
Bounty to Volunteers, Flag Pay, &c.
325,000
0
0
Half Pay to Sea Officers, and Bounty to Chaplains
201,895
8
6
Pensions to Sea Officers, their Widows, &c. and to superan
90,000
0
0
Wages to His Majesty's Dock and Rope Yards
931,718
2
11
½
Building of Ships, purchase of Stores every Description,
4,743,095
1
10
½
Pilotage
35,000
0
0
Bills of Exchange, Imprests, and Contingencies
851,000
0
0
Exchequer Fees
9,000
0
0
Marine Services on Shore, and Half Pay to Marine Officers
437,500
0
0
9,782,808
13
4
VICTUALLING.
Provisions and all sorts of Victualling Stores, paid for in Bills
3,263,286
11
11
Wages to the Victualling Yards
135,100
0
0
Bills of Exchange and Imprest
849,000
0
0
Necessary and Extra Necessary Money, and Contingencies
117,500
0
0
Widows Pensions
15,194
19
7
4,380,081
11
6
TRANSPORTS
Freight of Transports, Maintenance of Prisoners of War, and
1,632,137
13
0
Bills of Exchange, and all other Services paid for in Ready
289,000
0
0
1,921,137
13
0
£
16,084,027
17
10
N. B. In the above Total the Sum of £.900,000 is
xxvii
APPENDIX (G.)—An Account of Monies paid by the Office of ORDNANCE, in the Year 1806, for Services at Home and Abroad respectively
£.
s.
d.
Services at Home
4,316,735
11
11
Services Abroad
194,328
9
8
£.
4,511,064
1
7
9th March
APPENDIX (H.)—An Account of Monies paid by the Right Hon. the Paymaster Gen. of his Majesty's FORCES, from 25th Dec. 1805, to the 24th Dec. 1806.
£.
s.
d.
Pay and Allowances of the Forces, &c. Captains Allowances, Off-
8,155,265
8
5
Exchequer Fees
86,903
16
10
Garrisons
12,000
0
0
Pay of Officers
74,236
10
8
Staff
177,955
4
1
Barracks
347,417
19
4
Half Pay
213,000
0
0
Widows Pensions
26,000
0
0
Chelsea Hospital
189,712
0
8
Extraordinaries
5,828,999
7
8
£
15,111,490
7
8
15th March
APPENDIX (I.)—An Account of LOANS, REMITTANCES, and ADVANCES to other Countries, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1807; specifying the Total Amount paid to them respectively.
There was remitted out of Supplies 1806, to that Part of the United Kingdom called
£
s.
d.
Out of Loan 1806, per Act 46 Geo. III. Cap. 33.
1,724,000
0
0
Out of Lotteries 1806, per …. Ditto …. Cap. 148.
44,000
0
0
£
1,768,000
0
0
25th March
APPENDIX (K.)—An Account, shewing how the Monies remaining in the Receipt of the EXCHEQUER on the 5th Day of Jan. 1806, together with the Monies paid into the same during the Year ending the 5th of Jan. 1807, have been applied; so far as relates to MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES; specifying the Amount of Monies paid for Services at Home and Abroad respectively.
SERVICES AT HOME
£.
s
d
For Bounties on taking and bringing Fish to the Cities of London and Westminster,
7,000
0
0
For the Relief of certain St. Domingo Sufferers 1803
10,000
0
0
For Printing Journals of the House of Commons, for printing and delivering Votes,
2,000
0
0
For the Royal Military College, 1804, 5, 6
17,360
10
2
For completing the Works carrying on at Chetney Hill, 1804
10,000
0
0
xxix
To be distributed to the Officers, Seamen, and Marines, on board the Fleet under the
10,000
0
0
For confining, maintaining, and employing Convicts at Home, 1805/6
49,083
1
7
½
To defray Bills of the Usher of the Court of Exchequer for Stationary, &c. for 1805/6
1,649
14
7
Towards defraying the Expence of the Public Office, Bow Street, 1805/6
11,303
19
0
Protestant Dissenting Ministers in England, and for the Relief of the poor French
10,713
11
6
For reprinting Journals, Indexes, and Reports of the House of Commons, and for
6,000
0
0
To be paid to the Officers of the Houses of Lords and Commons 1805/6
5,004
11
0
For the extra Charge of Messengers of the Three Secretaries of State, 1805/6
8,500
0
0
For Do.
of Contingencies
Do.
14,415
0
0
For the Royal Military Asylum at Chelsea, for 1805/6
24,000
0
0
For the Ministers of the Vaudois Churches, for 1805/6
1,828
5
4
Towards making an Inland Navigation from the Eastern to the Western Sea, 1805/6
50,000
0
0
For Printing and Stationary for the Two Houses of Parliament, 1805/6
25,570
17
6
For Deficiency of Printing, &c. for the Two Houses of Parliament, 1804/5
6,089
1
4
½
Extraor. Expences of Prosecutions relating to the Coin of this Kingdom, in 1805/6
1,800
0
0
For defraying the Charge of the Superintendence of Aliens 1805
6,000
0
0
For defraying the Charge of the Works and Repairs of the Roads and Bridges in the
10,000
0
0
Towards the Support of an Institution called the Veterinary College, for 1805
1,500
0
0
For Works done at the two Houses of Parliament and at the House of the Speaker,
23,189
10
5
For Repairing of the Marshalsea Prison, 1805
1,421
11
11
¾
For the French Clergy and Laity; Toulonese, Corsican, and Dutch Emigrants; and American Loyalists
141,149
17
0
To Sheriffs, for Conviction of Felons and Overpayments
14,200
0
0
To the E. I. Company for Expences incurred by them in the Service of the Public
1,000,000
0
0
For enabling Earl Nelson to form an Establishment suitable to his Dignity
10,000
0
0
For the Use of the Officers, and Seamen who served under the late Vice-Admiral
287,500
0
0
For discharging the Annuity granted to the late Duke of Gloucester, to the Day of
2,381
17
6
For the Works and Repairs of the Military Roads in North Britain
4,994
1
8
For printing and delivering Votes of the House of Commons, and printing Bills
1,708
5
8
To the Trustees of the British Museum
3,400
0
0
Ditto
further Grant
7,500
0
0
To the Governors of Bethlem, for building a new Hospital
10,000
0
0
For the Expenses of the Funeral of the late Lord Viscount Nelson
14,698
11
6
Do
Right Hon. W. Pitt
6,045
2
6
For carrying on the building of a new Mint
30,000
0
0
For the Deficiency of the Grants of 1804/5, for the extraordinary Expenses of Prose
1,270
17
9
For defraying Law Charges
17,000
0
0
For the Board of Agriculture
3,000
0
0
For Compensation to Messrs. Chalmers and Cowie, for Loss on the Importation of
25,000
0
0
For purchasing Buildings and Ground in and near Palace Yard, Westminster
54,184
14
0
For the Royal College of Surgeons, to erect a Building for the Reception of Dr. Hun-
3,000
0
0
For an Allowance to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry
25,499
1
4
¾
Do.
Military Do
10,401
0
11
¾
For Salaries to the Officers, Incidental Expences of the Commissioners for re-
2,277
19
0
To William Young, Esq; for Expences attending the execution of an Act for the Re-
1,667
18
10
For Salaries and Expenses of American Commissioners
1,260
0
0
To the Bank of England, for Discount on Prompt Payments on Loan > £.22,500,000
374,513
1
3
To
Do
for receiving the above Loan
18,130
6
3
To
Do
for receiving Loan of £.521,409 6 1 for paying off
420
2
11
To
Do
for receiving Contributions of Lotteries
2,000
0
0
To
Do
for Discount on Prompt Payments thereon
3,048
19
8
To the Commissioners for preparing and drawing Lotteries 1804/5/6
17,033
6
8
To replace to His Majesty's Civil List Revenues the Sums issued thereout, pursuant to Addresses of the House of Commons; viz.
For the last Instalment for erecting a Monument in St. Paul's Cathedral to the Me-
1,481
6
0
To the Clerk Assistant of the House of Commons, Sess. 1805
1,059
17
8
To the Second Clerk Assistant to the House of Commons, in
Do
1,085
4
0
xxxi
To H. Alexander, Esq; as Chairman of the Committee of Ways & Means, Sess. 1805
1,300
0
0
To George Whittam, Esq; for making an Index to the Votes in Session 1805
310
0
0
To T. E. Tomlins, Esq. for compiling Registers for the Committees on expired and
150
0
0
To the Deputy Serjeant at Arms, to make up his Allowance equal to £.500, for
332
3
0
For Compensations to Officers of the House of Commons for their Attendance on
218
2
0
For the last Instalment for erecting a Monument to the Memory of Captain Westcott
1,481
5
0
For Do Do to the Memory of Major General Dundas
1,113
7
0
For discharging the Debts of the late Right Hon. W. Pitt
41,010
6
0
For Rewards to Persons employed under the Commissioners for carrying into execu-
4,309
18
1
To Edward Colman, Esq. late Serjeant at Arms, attending the House of Commons
329
13
4
¾
To make good to His Majesty's Civil List Revenues Monies issued thereout, for Public Services; viz.
For additional Allowance to Clerks in the Office for auditing the Public Accounts
11,284
13
0
To the Chairman of the Committee of the house of Peers, for his Attendance in Session 1805
2,698
13
0
To Thomas Brodie, Esq. for making an Index to Vol. 32. Lords Journals
534
14
0
To Dr. Clarke, for his Trouble and Attendance relative to an Act for enforcing the
556
13
0
Expences of a Plan for the more perfect Security of Shipping in the Port of London
1,299
4
0
To John Clementson, for One Year's Rent of a House in lieu of Apartments he
219
14
0
For the Consideration of the Assignment of Lord Eliot's Interest, &c. in a House in Downing Street, for an Office for the Secretary of State for the Home Department
3,435
19
6
To W. Chinnery, Esq. for sundry Persons Travelling and other Expences, in conse-
457
1
6
For the Purchase of Sweedland Court, Tower Hill, for the site of the new Mint
7,062
12
6
For the Relief of British Subjects detained in France
1,059
2
0
For the Purchase of Two Houses in Albion Street, Adelphi, for the additional Com-
1,949
2
6
To J. Johnson, Architect, for carrying on the Building of the new Mint
35,000
0
0
For Expences of a Plan for the Establishment of a Horse Patrol for the Public Roads
7,513
18
0
To. E. Stracey, Esq. as a Compensation for his Services as Counsel to the Chair-
1,515
9
0
To W. Chinnery, Esq, to pay Bills drawn on account of New South Wales
1,592
12
2
For Deficiency of Grant for Expences of Public Office Bow Street, 1805
243
10
5
To Joseph White, Esq, to defray Law Charges
5,000
0
0
To Capt. Bowen, for forming a settlement on Van Dieman's Land
302
10
4
To Bernard Cobbe, Esq. to pay Fees on passing Public Accounts
3,000
0
0
To W. Walter, Esq. for Salaries of the additional Commissioners for auditing Public
5.243
3
0
To H. C. Litchfield, Esq. for Law Charges
5,000
0
0
To Snowdon Barne, Esq. Treasurer's Remembrancer, for warming the Repository
40
17
0
For making and publishing Weekly Returns of the Average Price of Sugar
434
17
0
To Messrs. Winter and Kaye, Solicitors to the Managers of the
4,000
0
0
SERVICES ABROAD.
For His Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services, 1805/6
101,514
17
0
For repairing and maintaining British Forts and Settlements on the Coast of Africa
18,000
0
0
For Expenses of Mission for making Discoveries in Africa
2,138
2
6
To pay Bills drawn from New South Wales
20,420
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of
Bermuda 1805
290
0
0
New S. Wales
12,819
9
4½
Pr. Edward's I.
3,100
0
0
Upper Canada
8,250
0
0
Nova Scotia
7,165
0
0
Newfoundland
2,565
0
0
Cape Breton
2,040
0
0
New Brunswick
4,650
0
0
Sierra Leone
18,000
0
0
BahamaIslands
4,400
0
0
205,352
8
10
½
£
2,766,693
0
11
½
25th March
xxxiii
An Account of the UNFUNDED DEBT and DEMANDS OUTSTANDING on 5th January 1807; under the Heads of, Exchequer, Treasury, Army, Barracks, Ordnance, Navy, Civil List Advances and any other Head of Public Service; specifying the same: Distinguishing, under each Head respectively, the Particulars of which such Debt or Demands, consisted; and also what Part of the said Debt or Demands was then provided for, and in what Manner; and what Part thereof was unprovided for.
EXCHEQUER BILLS:
By what Acts raised.
On what Funds charged.
Amount Outstanding.
46 Geo. III.
cap.
2.
Malt Tax
1805
220,000
0
0
Ditto
cap.
6.
Aids
1806
4,250,600
0
0
Ditto
cap.
25.
Ditto
ditto
10,499,000
0
0
Ditto
cap.
26.
Ditto
ditto
1,500,000
0
0
Ditto
cap.
41.
Extension of Bank Charter
3,000,000
0
0
Ditto
cap.
93.
Aids
1806
7,737,500
0
0
27,207,500
0
0
TREASURY:
Miscellaneous Services
398,711
14
9
¾
Warrants for Army Services
Nil.
Treasury Bills accepted previous to and on 5th Jan. 1807,
284,006
1
11
½
682,717
16
9
¼
ARMY:
Ordinary Services
1,324,937
3
11
Extraordinary Services
Nil.
1,324,937
3
11
Barracks
504,376
17
3
Ordnance
1,255,071
14
1
Navy
5,885,819
16
7
½
Civil List Advances
41,681
1
6
£.36,902,604
10
1
¾
Whitehall, Treasury-Chambers, 25th March, 1807.
N. VANSITTART.
An Account of the NOTES Of the BANK of ENGLAND
An Account of the NOTES of the BANK of IRELAND
£
s.
d.
Amount of Bank of England Notes of £.5 each,
1806.
Value of £.5 and upwards
1,790,120
12
5
Ditto below £.5
783,527
13
6
1st May 1806
2,573,648
5
11
£
1806.
May
1
12,722,060
Value of £.5 and upwards
1,769,111
5
2
½
August
1
12,995,550
Ditto below £.5
893,903
0
6
November
1
12,814,900
1st August
2,663,014
5
8
½
February
1
12,333,430
Value of £.5 and upwards
1,869,101
14
11
Ditto below £.5
929,934
10
3
Amount of Bank of England Notes of £.2 and £.1 each.
1st November
2,799,036
5
2
1806.
May
1
4,363,090
Value of £.5 and upwards
1,863,886
9
4
August
1
4,285,780
Ditto below £.5
9
10
6
November
1
4,224,820
1807.
1st February
2,784,865
19
10
1807.
February
1
4,287,960
For the Gov. and Co. of the Bank of Ireland,
Bank of England, 5th March 1807.
WILLM, DAWES,
Dublin,
WILLIAM DONLEVY,
Acct Gen.
Acct Gen.
xxxv
An Account of the Progress made in the REDEMPTION of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT of and specifying how much of each has been redeemed by the Commissioners for the Re-the Sums annually applicable to the Reduction thereof: likewise, the Annuities to fall in: redeemed.
Funds.
Capitals.
Redeemed by
Total Sums paid.
£.
s.
d.
£.
£.
s.
d.
Consolidated 3 per Cent. Annuities
384,196,558
4
5
¼
47,137,310
28,774,099
19
9
Reduced Ditto
150,144,044
7
10
56,661,807
34,238,042
4
2
Old South-Sea Annuities
24,065,084
13
11
½
3,681,000
2,608,072
13
9
New Ditto ditto
2,899,000
2,062,618
4
3
3 per Cent. Ditto, 1751
1,919,600
0
0
722,000
527,949
5
0
Consolidated 4 per Cent. Annuities
49,425,084
17
2
2,617,400
2,278,402
1
3
Ditto 5 per Cent. ditto
44,809,542
1
8
142,000
126,998
7
6
5 per Cent. Annuities, 1797 and 1802
2,406,132
13
3
3 per Cent. Ditto, 1726
1,000,000
0
0
Ditto Bank Annuities
11,686,800
0
0
669,652,846
18
3
¾
113,860,517
70,616,182
15
8
Transferred to the Commissioners, by reason of
22,716,205
7
5
Debt existing at 1st Feb. 1807
646,936,641
10
10
¾
Redeemed by the Commissioners
113,860,517
0
0
Debt unredeemed at 1st Feb. 1807
£.
533,076,124
10
10
¾
An Account of the Progress made in the REDEMPTION of the PUBLIC DEBT of IRELAND, Funded in Great Britain, at 1st February 1807.
Funds.
Capitals.
Redeemed
Total Sums paid.
Average
Sums
£
£
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
Consol. 3 per Ct. Ann.
26,429,250
1,759,890
1,071,495
8
4
60⅞
1 per Cent. on Ca-
4,25,318
19
3
Reduced ditto
14,628,750
1,961,451
1,169,368
1
3
59⅝
Consol. 4 per Ct. ditto
300,000
Ditto 5 per Ct. ditto
360,000
3,721,341
2,240,863
9
7
Dividend on
l.
111,640
4
7
41,718,000
Redeemd by Commis.
3,721,341
536,959
3
10
Unred. 1st Feb. 1807
37,996,659
Exchequer, March 16, 1807
WM ROSE HAWORTH.
xxxvii
GREAT BRITAIN, at 1st of February 1807; distinguishing the Capitals of the several Funds, duction of the National Debt since 1st August 1786; the Average Price of Stocks; and also, the Capital of Debt transferred to the said Commissioners on Account of Land-Tax.
Average
SUMS
ANNUITIES
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
61⅛
Annual Charge, per 26G.III.
1,000,000
0
0
Excheq. Ann
s
23,369
13
4
60⅜
Ditto. 42 ditto
200,000
0
0
70⅞
Annuities for 99 and 96
54,880
14
6
Ditto, expir. 5th Jan. 1805
7,030
6
8
71⅛
Ditto, 4 Anne, 5th April 1805
23,254
11
6
73⅛
Ditto for 10 Years, exp. 1787
25,000
0
0
Ditto, 5 Anne, 5th April 1806
7,776
10
0
87
Life Annuities unclaimed
49,598
0
7
Ditto, 6 Anne, 5th April 1807
4,710
10
0
89⅜
Ditto, ditto, 5th July 1807
10,181
0
0
Bank Long Ann
s
1,047,499
5
4½
Ditto Short ditto 1808
418,333
0
11
Dividend on 111,101,117
l.
3,333,033
10
2
By an Act 42 Geo. III. cap.
62
Ditto on 2,617,400
l.
104,696
0
0
Ditto on 142,000
l.
7,100
0
0
Annuity of 1 per Cent. on
3,491,679
10
7
8,265,987
15
10
An Account of the Progress made in the REDEMPTION of the IMPERIAL DEBT at 1st February 1807.
Funds.
Capitals.
Redeemed
Total Sums
Average
Sums
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Imperial 3 per Cent.
3,699,300
734,604
426,187
8
10
58
1 per Cent. on Ca
36,693
0
0
Redeemed by the
734,604
Dividend on
l.
22,038
2
4
Unredeemed, Feb.
2,934,696
58,731
2
4
Office for Reduction of the National Debt.
G. T. GOODENOUGH,
Secretary.
xxxix
Abstract Statement of the PUBLIC INCOME of IRELAND,
Head of Revenue.
Gross Receipt
Total Receipt
Re-payments,
Charges of Management.
Ordinary Revenues:
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
1920359
16
4
¾
4915843
14
3
½
194646
2
3
¼
351654
15
11
Excise
1980623
15
0
Stamps
572127
12
1
¾
696480
19
11
¾
21281
12
7
¾
32336
4
5
½
Post Office
149857
3
3
164023
11
9
1927
9
4
71662
2
10
½
Poundage Fees
25554
15
11
25554
15
11
-
-
-
-
-
-
Pells Fees
5110
19
1
5110
19
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
Duty on Wrought Plate
5210
6
3
5210
6
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
Casualties
4553
1
8
½
4553
1
8
½
-
-
-
-
-
-
Total Ordinary Revenues
4663397
9
9
5816777
8
11
¾
23520
4
3
455653
3
3
Extraordinary Resources:
Granted by His Majesty 2-17ths of
l.
127450
18
4
127450
18
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
Gain by Exchange on Sums received
129
16
4
½
129
16
4
½
-
-
-
-
-
-
Gain on Silver Coinage
10913
4
4
½
10913
4
4
½
-
-
-
-
-
-
Commissioners of the Navy, on Ac-
38962
13
4
¼
38962
13
4
¼
-
-
-
-
-
-
From Great Britain on Account of
192901
0
10
192901
0
10
-
-
-
-
-
-
From several County Treasurers, paid to several Revenue Collectors, on Account of Advances made by the Treasury for enrolling the Militia.
7283
14
3
½
19740
5
4
½
-
-
-
-
-
-
From several Treasurers, paid
6778
11
3
11415
8
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
Other Monies paid to the Public
51566
11
2
51566
11
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
Appropriated Duties for Local objects.
Linen Manufacture
598
11
2
2872
2
10
½
392
7
8
-
-
-
Improvement of Dublin
11055
16
11
11687
5
9
7
3
0
-
-
-
Repairs of the Royal Exchange and
1377
10
0
1677
14
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
Lagan Navigation
4407
19
3
¾
6221
19
3
¾
2430
4
4
98
17
9
Inns of Court
5625
3
2
½
5625
3
2
½
-
-
-
-
-
-
Total, independent of the Loans
5122449
0
4
6297941
12
6
¼
238035
19
3
455752
1
0
Loans paid into the Exchequer in the
4359006
6
10
4359006
6
10
-
-
-
-
-
-
Grand Total.
9481455
7
2
10656947
19
4
½
238035
19
3
455752
1
0
NOTES.
Rates of Collecting, per Cent.
Gross Rev.
Net Rev.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs and Excise
9
0
3
9
18
1¾
Stamps
5
13
0⅜
5
19
9⅝
Post Office
47
16
4
91
12
10¾
The Appropriated Balances in the Exchequer, on the 5th of January
7469
14
9
278184
18
7¼
The Unappropriated Balances in the Exchequer, on the 5th of January
270715
3
10¼
The Appropriated Balances in the Exchequer, on the 5th of January
4417
5
1½
518514
11
1¾
The Unappropriated Balances in the Exchequer, on the 5th of January 1807, amounted to
514097
6
0¼
xli
for the Year ended the 5th of January 1807.
Total Payments
Net Produce,
Payments on ac-
Bounties for
Total Payments
Payments
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
align="center">
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
546300
18
2¼
4369542
16
1¼
71881
1
1¼
49880
16
2½
121761
17
3¾
3234936
1
2¼
53617
17
1¼
642863
2
10½
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
516941
12
8¾
90940
12
2½
73082
19
6½
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
54574
7
7
-
-
-
25554
15
11
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
25554
15
11
-
-
-
5110
19
1
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
5110
19
1
-
-
-
5210
6
3
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
5210
6
3
-
-
-
4553
1
8½
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
4553
1
8½
690859
7
6
5125918
1
5¾
71881
1
1¼
49880
16
2½
121761
17
3
3846881
4
5½
-
-
-
127450
18
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
127450
18
4
-
-
-
129
16
4½
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
129
16
4½
-
-
-
10913
4
4½
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
10913
4
4½
-
-
-
38962
13
4¼
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
38962
13
4¼
-
-
-
192901
0
10
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
192901
0
10
-
-
-
19740
5
4½
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
4259
14
7½
-
-
-
11415
8
5
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
2440
0
0
-
-
-
51566
11
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
51566
11
2
392
7
8
2479
15
2½
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
550
0
0
7
3
0
11680
2
9
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
10722
9
8
-
-
-
1677
14
2
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
1258
0
0
2529
2
1
3692
17
2¾
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
3554
9
0
-
-
-
5625
3
2½
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
5625
3
2½
693788
0
3
5604153
12
3¾
71881
1
1¼
49880
16
2½
121761
17
3¾
4297215
5
4¾
-
-
-
4359006
6
10
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
4359006
6
10
693788
0
3
9963159
19
1¼
71881
1
1¼
49880
16
2½
121761
17
3¾
8656221
12
2¾
NOTES.
BALANCES
Balances in the
Balances in the
Bills in the
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
5th Jan. 1806
331529
8
10⅝
-
-
-
2228886
0
0
5th. Jan. 1807
353132
17
2⅝
-
-
-
202986
4
0
Accpimtant-General's Office, 28th February 1806.
STEPHEN MOORE
Acct-Genl.
xliii
An Account of the CONSOLIDATED FUND of IRELAND, for the Year ending the 5th of JANUARY, 1807; and also the actual Payments thereout, within the said Year; and the total Charge thereon, in respect of the said Year; specifying also the Surplus of the said Consolidated Fund.
INCOME.
ACTUAL PAYMENTS.
CHARGE.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Balance in the Consolidated Fund remaining in
270,715
3
10¼
Interest on Funded Debt, including Annuities
2,514,269
19
5½
2,496,406
12
1½
Custom and Excise Duties, including Quit Rents
3,234,936
1
2¼
Interest on Unfunded Debt
3,006
9
8¾
3,029
13
3¼
Sinking Fund and Management
649,395
14
11
649,395
14
11
Stamp Duties
516,941
12
8¾
Principal of Debentures
2,225
—
—
Post-Office Revenue
54,574
7
7
Principal of Exchequer Bills
30,550
—
—
31,208
6
8
Duty on Wrought Plate
5,210
6
3
Lottery Prizes
153
—
—
27,180
—
—
Poundage Fee
25,554
15
11
Discount on prompt Payment of Loan Deposits, &c.
47,687
4
4¾
47,687
4
4¾
Pells Fee
5,110
19
1
Repayment to British Exchequer of an Advance
299,000
—
—
299,000
—
—
4,113,043
6
7¼
Compensation for Losses by t
860
8
8
860
16
8
Repayments from Great Britain of Advances
38,962
13
4½
Inland Navigations
74,702
19
7
74,702
19
7
Light House at Clue Bay
1,464
8
8
1,464
8
8
From several County Treasurers per the Re-
4,259
14
7½
3,621,090
13
5
3,633,160
16
3½
More—per Ditto—for Fines levied on
2,440
—
—
Gain by Exchange on Sums received from Great
129
16
4½
Civil List
133,995
14
8¼
145,000
—
—
Pensions
93,250
16
2¼
Unascertained.
Gain on the Silver Coinage for Ireland
10,913
4
4½
Permanent Parliament Payments
199,072
13
—¼
Other Monies paid to the Public
56,119
12
10½
Military Purposes
4050,162
2
9
Vote of Credit
7,906
14
1¼
4,225,868
8
2½
Annual Grants
285,660
14
—¼
EXTRAORDINARY RESOURCES.
8,391,129
8
2¼
Unascertained.
On Account of Loans
4,359,006
6
10
From Great Britain for ⅓d of the Profits on the
192,901
—
10
More for 2–17th Parts of £.1,000,000 British,
127,450
18
4
Surplus of Consolidated Fund on 5th January
514,097
6
—¼
8,905,226
14
2
8,905,226
14
2½
Treasury Chambers, Dublin Castle 28th February, 1807.
G. CAVENDISH.
xlv
Account of the PUBLIC EXPENDITURE of IRELAND, for the Year ending on the 5th of January 1807.
(N. B. For the Particulars under each Head, see the several Accounts referred to by Letters A, B, &c.)
HEADS OF EXPENDITURE
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
I.
For Interest on the Funded Debt of Ireland,
3,068,983
16
2
For Charge of Management thereon
-
-
-
27,046
9
10½
There was also applied towards the Reduc-
67,635
8
4
3,139,619
4
6
Whereof was applied, towards the Reductionlb/> of the National Debt
859,963,
14
1
Total on Account of Interest
2,276,655
10
5
Ditto for Charge of Management
27,046
9
10½
Ditto, on Account of the Reduction of the
859,963
14
1
3,163,665
14
4½
II.
The Interest on Exchequer Bills, (B.)
-
-
-
3,006
9
8¾
III.
Issues for Purposes appointed by the Par-
-
-
-
454,418
9
3¾
IV.
Issues from appropriated Funds for local Purposes, (D.)
-
-
-
24,762
11
6
3,645,853
4
11
V.
Civil List
-
-
-
133,995
14
8¼
Pensions
-
-
-
93,250
16
2¼
Other Permanent Charges, (E.)
-
-
-
199,072
13
0¼
426,319
3
10¾
VI.
Payments in Anticipation of Exchequer
Bounties
-
-
-
49,880
16
2½
Militia, Army of Reserve, Deserters' War-
-
-
-
71,881
1
1¼
121,761
17
3¾
VII.
Ordnance, (G.)
-
-
-
-
-
-
874,475
0
0
VIII.
Army.—Ordinary Service, viz.
Regulars, Militia, and Volunteer Corps
-
-
-
2,236,326
19
10
Barracks
-
-
-
286,659
2
9½
Staff Officers and Officers of Garrisons
-
-
-
64,821
1
9
Half-pay Officers, Supernumerary Of-
-
-
-
30,192
12
2½
Officer's Widows
-
-
-
4,947
6
9
Royal Hospital
-
-
-
47,096
5
8¾
Public Officers, their Deputies, Clerks,
-
-
-
9501
7
4¼
2,679,544
16
5
Extraordinary Services
-
-
-
496,142
6
4
3,175,687
2
9
IX.
Miscellaneous, (I)
-
-
-
-
-
-
285,650
14
0¼
Lastly, Vote of Credit, (K.)
-
-
-
-
-
-
7,906
14
1¼
Total
-
-
-
-
-
£
8,537,653
17
0
Treasury-Chambers, Dublin Castle 28th February 1807
G. CAVENDISH.
xlvii
(A. 1.) An Account of the Monies paid out of the Receipt of the Exchequer, in the Year ending the 5th January 1807, towards defraying the Charges of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT of Ireland; distinguishing the Total Amount of the Sums applied for Interest, Charge of Management, and the Annual Issue for its Reduction.
Interest & Annuities
Charge
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Interest, &c. on the Funded Debt of Ireland
3,068,983
16
2
27,046
9
10½
27,046
9
10½
3,096030
6
0½
Annual Issue for the Reduction of the National Debt
67,635
8
4
3,163,665
14
4½
(A. 2.) An Account of the Total Amount of the Sums actually received by the Commissioners for the REDUCTION of the NATIONAL DEBT, in the Year ending 5th January 1807.
In Great Britain.
In Ireland.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Annual Issue
-
-
-
67,635
8
4
Expired Annuities
-
-
-
2,250
0
0
Appropriation of 1
l.
442,778
17
4
136,512
2
9
442,778
17
4
206,397
11
1
Interest on Debt of Ireland redeemed
120,943
11
7½
89,843
14
0½
563,722
8
11½
296,241
5
1½
296,241
5
1½
£.
859,963
14
1
(B.) An Account of the INTEREST on EXCHEQUER BILLS, with the Payments made in the Year from the 5th January 1806, to the 5th January 1807.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
There remained unclaimed on the 5th January 1806, Interest on Ex-
1,045
8
4¼
Charge for Interest.
On 30,000
l.
l.
450
0
0
On 200,000
l.
l.
1,534
4
11
3,029
13
3¼
Deduct Interest unclaimed on 5th January 1807
23
3
6½
Total Payments for Interest on Exchequer Bills, in the Year to
-
-
-
£
9
8¾
(C.) An Account of PAYMENTS made for Purposes appointed by the PARLIAMENT of IRELAND prior to the Union, for Principal of Exchequer Bills, and for Discount on Prompt Payment of Loan Deposits, &c. in the Year ending the 5th January 1807.
£.
s.
d.
For Light-House at Clue Bay
1,464
8
8
Compensation for Losses by the Union
860
16
8
Inland Navigations
74,702
19
7
Repayment to the British Exchequer, for an Advance in 1802 to pay Lottery Prizes
299,000
0
0
Lottery Prizes
153
0
0
Principal of Exchequer Bills
30,550
0
0
Discount on Prompt Payment of Loan Deposits, &c.
47,687
4
4
£.
454,418
9
3
xlix
(D.) An Account of PAYMENTS made from the FUNDS appropriated for Local Purposes in IRELAND, from the 5th January 1806, to the 5th January 1807.
£
s.
d.
Lagan Navigation
5,054
9
0
Improving Dublin
10,812
9
8
Inns of Courts
7,125
3
2½
Royal Exchange and Commercial Buildings
1,770
9
7½
£.
24,762
11
6
(E.) An Account of PAYMENTS in the Year to the 5th January 1807, under the several Heads of—Civil List, Pensions, and other Permanent Charges.
£.
s.
d.
Arrear on Civil List on 5th January 1806
25,141
10
2½
Charge for Ditto, for One Year, to 25th December 1806, including
l.
148,250
0
0
173,391
10
2½
Deduct Arrear on 5th January 1807
39,395
15
6¼
£.
s.
d.
Issues to the Civil List in One Year to 5th January 1807
133,995
14
8¼
Pension
93,250
16
2¼
Other
Permanent Charges; viz.
Public Infirmaries
3,450
0
0
Public Coal Yards
3,382
9
3½
Army Baggage
13,110
0
4
Police Establishment
15,925
14
0½
Inspector-General of Prisons
200
0
0
Transportation of Felons
644
11
11¾
Fees on Auditing Treasury Accounts
2,649
9
8
Imprest Office
2,600
0
0
Secret Service in detecting Treasonable Conspiracies
6,701
0
6½
Annuities and Compensation Allowances
117,191
19
10¾
Judges' additional Salaries, &c
29,420
14
1¼
Disembodied Militia
1,585
19
7
Commissioners of Enquiry
2,210
13
7
199,072
13
0¼
£.426,319
3
10¾
(F.1) An Account of the Amount of BOUNTIES paid out of the Public Revenue, in the Year ending the 5th January 1807, being Payments in the Nature of Anticipation of Exchequer Receipts
£.
s.
d.
On
Linen Exported
16,973
18
1¾
Fishing Vessels
5,994
7
11½
Bark Imported
9,402
8
10
Irish Coals brought Coastways to Dublin
38
4
0
Irish Cured Fish Exported
316
5
5
Corn Exported
197
6
8
To
Distillers
6,948
14
9¼
Spirit Retailers
10,009
10
5
£.
49,880
16
2½
(F.2.) An Account of the Amount of PAYMENTS to the MILITIA, ARMY OF RESERVE, DESERTERS' WARRANTS, &C. &C. in the Year ending the 5th January 1807.
£.
s.
d.
Militia
49,479
7
7½
Army of Reserve
13,190
15
11¼
Deserters' Warrants
828
0
0
Fortification Compensation
1,528
4
1½
Compensation to Revenue Collectors in lieu of Fees on License
6,854
13
5
£.
71,881
1
1¼
li
(G.) An Account of MONIES paid to the Office of ORDNANCE, in the Year to the 5th January 1807
Payments to the Ordnance for the Grants of 1806
£.
0
0
(H.) An Account of the MONIES paid on Account of HIS MAJESTY'S FORCE in IRELAND, in the Year ending the 5th January 1807.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Regiments of the Line
1,109,368
0
3¾
Militia
807,717
11
7
Volunteer Corps
310,790
13
0
Military Hospitals
4.450
14
11¼
Royal Military Infirmary
4,000
0
0
2,236,326
19
10
Barracks
286,659
2
9½
Staff Officers, &c.
64,821
1
9
Half-Pay Officers, Supernumerary Officers, and Reduced Chaplains
30,192
12
2½
Officers' Windows
4,947
6
9
Royal Hospitals
47,096
5
8¾
Public Officers, their Deputies, Clerks, and Incidental Expences
9,501
7
4¼
2,679,544
16
5
Extraordinary Services
496,142
6
4
£
2
9
(I.) An Account shewing the PAYMENTS in the Year ending the 5th January 1807, for MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES
£.
s.
d.
Repayment of Issues from His Majesty's Civil List, pursuant to Address of the
3,250
0
0
Public Officers for several Services
1,780
0
0
Public Hospitals and Schools
105,705
3
11½
Miscellaneous Services
98,306
4
6¼
Public Boards
61,300
0
0
Commissioners for Paving, &c. the Streets of Dublin
15,309
5
6½
£.
14
0¼
(K.) An Account of the Amount of PAYMENTS form the VOTE OF CREDIT in the Year ending the 5th January 1807.
Amount of Payments from the Vote of credit
£.
14
1¼
(1.) An Account of the Value of all IMPORTS into, and all EXPORTS from, IRELAND, in the Year ended the 5th January 1807; distinguishing the Value of Irish Produce and Manufactures Exported; together with the Difference between the Official Value and the Real Value of Irish Produce and Manufactures Exported.
£
s.
d.
Official Value
Irish Produce and Manufactures
5,030,722
15
10
Foreign Articles
157,443
2
11
Official Value of Imports
5,605,964
16
1
Real Value of Exports of Irish Produce and Manufactures
£.
17
7
(2.) An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their TONNAGE, which have been Built and Registered in the several Ports of IRELAND, between the 5th January 1806, and 5th January 1807.
Vessels.
Amount of Tonnage.
41
1,687
(3.) An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their TONNAGE, and Number of MEN and BOYS usually employed in Navigating the same, which belonged to the several Ports of IRELAND on the 30th September 1806.
Vessels.
Tonns.
Men.
1,076
55,545
5,081
liii
An Account of the UNFUNDED DEBT OF IRELAND, and Demands Outstanding, on the 5th January 1807; under the Heads of,—Loan Debentures, Exchequer Bills, and Lottery Prizes;—distinguishing under each Head respectively the Particulars of which such Debt or Demand consisted, and also what Part of the said Debt and Demand was then provided for, and in what Manner; and what Part thereof was Unprovided for
Loan Debentures:
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Residue of Debentures bearing 4
l
27
28
Old Loan
275
0
0
Loan by Lottery 1780
1,220
6
0
Loan by Lottery 1781
730
0
0
(
a
0
0
Exchequer Bills:
Outstanding Exchequer Bills, provided for by several Acts of Parliament, but not claimed by the Proprietors:
Payable
24 June - 1783
8
6
8
24 June - 1790
50
0
0
24 June - 1791
100
0
0
24 June - 1795
300
0
0
24 June - 1801
50
0
0
24 June - 1803
150
0
0
(
a
6
8
Lottery Prizes:
Outstanding Lottery Prizes of the several Lotteries from 1782 to 1801
(
a
0
0
Total
29,910
6
8
(
a
Treasury-Chambers, Dublin Castle, 28th February 1807.
G. CAVENDISH
lv
An Account of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT of IRELAND, as the same stood on the 5th January the different Funds in which it is invested—the Amount of the Capital Stock each Fund—Dublin respectively—the Charge of Management—and the Annual Charge for the Reduction
By what Acts
Sums
Payable in DUBLIN:
Payable in
3
l
s
4
l
5
l
3
l
3
l
3
l
4
l
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
13 Geo. III
265000
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
15 Geo. III
175000
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
17 Geo. III
300000
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
25 Geo. III
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
27 Geo. III
200000
200000
—
—
—
—
—
—
28 Geo. III
918240
918240
—
—
—
—
—
—
27, 29, and 31
174600
—
174600
—
—
—
—
—
33 Geo. III
200000
—
—
200000
—
—
—
—
Vote of Credit
150000
—
—
150000
—
—
—
—
34 Geo. III
1029650
—
—
487983
—
—
—
—
35 Geo. III
1591666
—
—
400000
—
—
—
—
36 Geo. III
640000
—
—
640000
—
—
—
—
Vote of Credit 18 Oct. 1796
3250000
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
37 Geo. III
2018700
—
—
635000
1875000
750000
—
300000
38 Geo. III
3424476
—
—
2054950
3000000
1000000
—
—
39 Geo. III
5261000
—
—
2011000
3750000
1500000
—
—
40 Geo. III
4666666
—
—
2500000
2200000
940000
—
—
41 Geo. III
2750319
—
—
41985
3125000
1268750
—
—
42 Geo. III
3791666
1770232
—
—
1300000
1200000
139250
—
43 Geo. III
2166666
—
—
—
1600000
1600000
—
—
44 Geo. III
6125000
—
—
1404531
3690000
4500000
—
—
45 Geo. III
4333333
—
—
—
3750000
550000
—
—
46 Geo. III
4166666
2780000
—
—
2000000
1320000
—
—
BANK OF IRELAND
22 and 37 GEO. III
600000
—
—
600000
—
—
—
—
37 Geo. III
500000
—
—
500000
—
—
—
—
£
45773652
5668472
174600
11625450
26290000
14628750
139250
300000
N. B For want of rooms, the shillings, pence, and farthings, are left out all through this account.
Total Principle Debt on 5th
lvii
1807: Distinguishing the Years in which each Part thereof was created; distinguishing also the Annual Interest and Annuities, and the several Portions thereof payable in London and of said Debt.
LONDON.
Annual
Annuities
Charge
Annual Charge for Redemp-
Total of
5
l
5
l
Pursuant to
By Acts pro-
l
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
—
—
—
15900
697
—
—
† 49597
—
—
—
10500
—
—
—
22500
—
—
—
—
—
2250
—
‡ 2250
—
—
39138
—
—
—
—
39138
—
—
—
—
6984
—
—
—
—
6984
—
—
17500
—
—
—
—
17500
—
—
—
500000
51482
10296
346
—
—
62125
—
100000
79585
18058
655
—
—
98297
—
—
48250
23437
319
—
—
72007
—
300000
—
—
130062
5381
1235
67635
38714
242929
—
—
232747
5326
1728
—
64466
304268
—
—
271175
—
2256
—
76875
350306
—
—
227050
—
1373
—
59016
287440
—
—
144896
—
1966
—
47598
194461
—
—
143208
—
1136
—
46294
190638
—
—
104000
6951
1572
—
35346
147870
—
—
336401
—
3905
—
102770
443077
360000
—
159250
81250
3166
—
57263
300929
—
—
205200
—
2869
—
63766
271836
—
—
30000
—
—
—
—
30000
—
—
25000
8125
—
—
5000
48125
*
—
—
6488
360000
1900000
2251929
217626
29720
69885
597112
3166274
Jan, 1806
64721356
* Management on so much of the Debt payable in Dublin as has been converted into Stock, transferable at the Bank of Ireland.
† Life Annuities.
‡ Expired Annuities.
Treasury-Chambers, Dublin Castle, 9th March, 1807.
G. CAVENDISH.
lix
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Service of the Year 1806, have been disposed of; distinguished under several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.
SERVICES.
Sums granted.
Sums paid.
Remains.
Forces:
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Army, with Garrisons, and their In-
l
s
d
672663
8
2
Foreign Corps (part of 985909
l
s
d
205735
5
9
Allowance to Non-commissioned
l
s
d
77807
4
2
Recruiting and Contingencies (part
l
s
d
135855
4
10½
Augmentation of Pay for Infantry
l
s
d
17749
17
6
1109811
0
5½
1109368
0
3¾
443
0
1¾
Militia—Pay, &c. (part of 2470334
l
s
d
906941
9
9
Allowance to Non-commissioned
l
s
d
62664
19
7
Contingencies (part of 52,153
l
s
24000
0
0
Augmentation of Pay for 183 Days,
l
s
d
6414
9
5
1000020
18
9
807717
11
7
192303
7
2
Volunteers Corps—(part of 1738806
l
s
d
770040
0
0
310790
13
0
459249
7
0
General and General Staff Officers, and Officers of
l
s
d
71332
14
6½
64821
1
9
6511
12
9½
Full Pay to Supernumerary Officers of His Majesty's
l
s
1219
18
6
1219
18
6
-
-
-
The Principal Officers of several Public Departments,
l
s
d
9638
15
4¼
9501
7
4¼
137
8
0
Half-Pay to reduced Officers of His Majesty's Land
l
s
d
32442
12
3
28557
3
6¼
3885
8
8¾
Military Allowance to Reduced Officers of His
l
s
d
868
9
9
415
10
2¼
452
19
6¼
In and Out Pensioners of the Royal
l
s
d
52720
7
3
Augmentation to the Out-Pension-
l
7940
16
2½
60661
3
5½
47096
5
8¾
13564
17
8¼
Pensions to Widows of Officers of the
l
s
d
6500
0
0
Augmentation for 183 Days, from
l
s
d
645
5
2½
7145
5
2½
4947
6
9
2197
18
5½
Carried forward
lxi
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Service of the Year 1806, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.—
Continued.
SERVICES—
Continued.
Sums granted.
Sums paid
Remains
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Brought forward
General Hospital Expences of His Majesty's Forces
l
s
d
16703
14
0¼
8450
14
11¼
8252
19
1
Barrack Department in Ireland, (458447
l
s
496867
16
0
286659
2
9½
210208
13
2½
Extraordinary Expences of the Army in Ireland,
l
650000
0
0
496142
6
4
153857
13
8
Ordnance:
Office of Ordnance in Ireland, for the Year 1806,
l
s
d
734475
0
0
734475
0
0
More to replace the Sum advanced by the Exchequer
l
s
d
140000
0
0
140000
0
0
To make good a like Sum which has been issued, by
3250
0
0
3250
0
0
Public Officers for several Services:
Stephen Moore, Esq. Accountant-General, for his
340
0
0
340
0
0
John Smart, Esq. Deputy Accountant-General, for
240
0
0
240
0
0
Paul Le Bas, Esq. Examinator of Corn Bounties, for
200
0
0
200
0
0
Robert Marshall, Esq. Inspector-General of Imports
250
0
0
250
0
0
Roger Wetheral, Esq. First Clerk in the Office of the
200
0
0
200
0
0
George Hatton, Esq. Examinator of Excise, for his
200
0
0
200
0
0
Samuel Hood, Assistant-Examinator of Excise, for
150
0
0
150
0
0
Thomas Haffield, Esq. Clerk in the Office of the Au-
200
0
0
200
0
0
Miscellaneous Services:
For defraying the Expence of Civil Buildings, from
25000
0
0
25000
0
0
For defraying the Expence of Printing and Building
1200
0
0
1200
0
0
For defraying the Expence of publishing Proclama-
10500
0
0
10500
Carried forward
lxiii
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Service of the Year 1806, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.—
Continued.
SERVICES—
Continued.
Sums granted.
Sums paid
Remains
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Brought forward
For defraying the Charge of Printing, Stationary, and
21880
0
0
20774
2
11¼
1105
17
0¼
For defraying the Expence of Criminal Prosecutions,
25000
0
0
25000
0
0
For defraying the Expence of apprehending Public
2500
0
0
1749
7
7
750
12
5
For completing the Sum necessary for the Support of
254
18
10½
254
18
10½
For the Support of the Non-conforming Ministers of
9429
0
0
9429
0
0
For defraying the Expence of Pratique, in the Port of
1047
10
2
1047
10
2
For defraying the Expence of His Majesty's Gold
610
6
11½
610
6
11½
For defraying the Charge of Clothing the Battle-Axe
740
0
0
740
0
0
For defraying the Charge of Incidents of the Trea-
2000
0
0
2000
0
0
Public Boards:
Paid the Trustees of the Linen and Hempen Manu-
21600
0
0
21600
0
0
The Board of First Fruits; for building new Churches,
5000
0
0
5000
0
0
Towards defraying the Expence of building the in-
4500
0
0
4500
0
0
To be paid the Dublin Society, for promoting Hus-
10000
0
0
10000
0
0
For defraying the Expences of the Farming Society;
3000
0
0
3000
0
0
For Paving, Cleansing, and Lighting, the Streets of
10000
0
0
10000
0
0
To be paid the Commissioners for making wide and
4500
0
0
4500
0
0
To be applied to complete the re-building of the Parish
2700
0
0
2700
0
0
Carried forward
lxv
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Service of the Year 1806, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.—
Continued
SERVICES—
Continued
Sums granted
Sums paid.
Remains.
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Brought forward
Public Hospital and Schools:
For defraying the Charge of the Incorporated Society
22621
6
1
22621
6
1
For defraying the Expence of the Foundling Hospital
22500
0
0
22500
0
0
For defraying the Charge of the Hibernian Marine
1588
15
0
1588
15
0
For defraying the Expence of the Hibernian School
8210
10
10
8210
10
10
For defraying the Charge of the Female Orphan House
1081
2
2
1081
2
2
For defraying the Expences which may be incurred
1391
2
6
1391
2
6
For supporting the Westmorland Lock Hospital in
8988
0
0
8988
0
0
For defraying the Charge of supporting the House of
22862
17
10
22862
17
10
For defraying the Expence of maintaining Eighty
1030
18
6
1030
18
6
For defraying the Expence of the Lying-in Hospital
2287
8
0
2287
8
0
For defraying the Charge of the Office of the Com-
400
0
0
400
0
0
For defraying the Charge of the Roman Catholic Se-
8000
0
0
8000
0
0
For defraying the Expence of Madam Steven's Hos-
4743
3
0½
4743
3
0½
£
5373425
6
3
4320503
11
2¾
1052921
15
0¼
Treasury-Chambers, Dublin Castle, 28th February 1807.
G. CAVENDISH
lxvii
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
FIRST REPORT FROM THE COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC EXPENDITURE, &C. OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.
Presented to the House of Commons, July 22,
PAY-OFFICE
The Committee, appointed to examine and consider what Regulations and Checks have been established, in order to controul the several branches of the Public Expenditure in Great Britain and Ireland; and how far the same have been effectual; and what further Measures can be adopted for reducing any Part of the said Expenditure, or diminishing the Amount of Salaries and Emoluments, without detriment to the Public Service;
HAVING had referred to their consideration the proceedings of the committee which was instituted for the same purposes in the last parliament, began their enquiries, by prosecuting the examination of a subject, in which considerable progress had been made, but upon which they have delayed making an earlier report, judging it proper to suspend any statement of facts, until they could at the same time recommend the best mode, according to their judgment, of preventing similar abuses in future. The evidence received during the last session, contains an account of two transactions in the pay-office, of a most irregular, and improper kind, which were disclosed on the examination of Mr. Thomas, accountant in that office; by whom it was stated, that a draft for 7,000
l.
l.
l.
s.
lxviii
lxix
lxx
l.
lxxi
l.
lxxii
lxxiii
lxxiv
l.
lxxv
lxxvi
lxxvii
Extracts from the Appendix.—Examination of the right hon. Thomas Steele, March 26, 1807.
The two sums mentioned by Mr. Thomas, were issued by my direction, and I have no hesitation in stating that they were not issued for public service. I thought as others did at the time, that I had full authority to direct those issues. I was urged to do so by private considerations of a very popular nature, which operated at that time upon my mind; and I thought that by directing them to be issued to myself, and making myself responsible for them, that I could not, by possibility, incur the suspicion of concealment or fraud. It was my intention, that they should have been replaced in a very short time, but it was not in my power to accomplish it. They remain charged against me in the pay-office books till the beginning of the present year, when the former of the two sums was repaid; and the whole subject having been brought lately under the consideration of the board of treasury, they have directed me to repay the remaining sum, with the interest due upon both sums, by instalments at stated periods, which I engaged to do. I cannot take
lxxviii
Examination of the right hon. Thomas Steele, April 10, 1807.
[Read part of the letter from lord Temple to lord Grenville.] Have you any explanation to give in reference to this letter?—This being a statement of what passed in different conversations at different times, of which I made no memorandum myself, I certainly am not disposed to dispute the accuracy with which it is reported. I beg the committee at the same time to understand, that I never have attempted to justify the issue of the two sums in question, upon the ground that they were applied directly or indirectly to public service; but that in my former evidence I acknowledge that they were not issued with any reference to public service, but that I alone was responsible and accountable for them, and that I have in fact repaid them both, principal and interest.—[Read Mr. Steele's former examination, and extract of a letter from him to Mr. Thomas.]—Question repeated.—The persons to whom I allude in that letter, and in my examination, were the principal officers of the pay-office, who had long been established there, and who uniformly contended, that the power of the paymaster-general to direct the issues of money from the bank remained unlimited by any of the provisions of the act for regulating the office of paymaster-general.—Did you consult any other person as to the operation of that act upon the issue of money to the paymaster? I did not.—Whether, in point of fact, in any part of this transaction, you did act upon the opinions of any other persons conjointly with your own, or consult any other person on the subject? No.
Examination of the right hon. George Rose, April 13, 1807.
You are desired to state, when and in what manner you became acquainted with the transactions relating to Mr. Steele's two drafts. On Monday the 10th of February,
lxxix
l.
l.
lxxx
REPORT OF THE COMMITTEE OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS, ON THE COMMERCIAL STATE OF THE WEST-INDIA COLONIES.
Ordered to be printed, Aug. 8, 1807.
lxxxi
The Committee who were appointed to take into consideration the Commercial State of the West-India colonies, and to report their proceedings, from time to time, to the house of commons; and who were empowered to report the minutes of evidence taken before them; and to whom all minutes of evidence which were taken before the committee in the last session of parliament, on the West-India planters' petitions, together with their proceedings, were referred; have, pursuant to the order of the house, examined the matters to them referred; and have agreed to the following Report:
YOUR committee have thought it their duty, in the first place, to enquire into the situation of the West-India planters at the present moment, and for several years preceding; and have examined various respectable witnesses, proprietors of estates, who have resided many years in the West Indies, and who have had the properties of several absentees under their management; and also many merchants intimately acquainted with the expenses and profits of a great variety of estates, and generally conversant with the West-India commerce. From their testimony it appears, that since the year 1799, there has taken place a progressive deterioration in the situation of the planters, resulting from a progressive diminution of the price of sugar although at the same time the duty, and all the expences attending the cultivation, have been increasing, till at length the depression of the market has become such, that the prices obtained for the last year's crop will not pay the expence of cultivation, except upon estates on a very great scale, making sugar of a very superior quality, or enjoying other extraordinary advantages. Calculations have been laid before your committee, from the accounts of estates both in Jamaica and the other islands, by which it appears, that the British supplies and island expences amount to 20
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
lxxxii
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
d.
lxxxiii
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
lxxxiv
s.
d.
s.
d.
lxxxv
s.
lxxxvi
SECOND REPORT, FROM THE COMMITTEE ON THE PUBLIC EXPENDITURE, &C. OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.
lxxxvii
THE BANK OF ENGLAND.
The committee, appointed to examine and consider what Regulations and Checks have been established, in order to control the several branches of the Public Expenditure in Great Britain and Ireland; and how far the same have been effectual; and what further measures can be adopted for reducing any part of the said expenditure, or diminishing the amount of salaries and emoluments, without detriment to the public service;
DIRECTED their earliest enquiries to the management of the public debt, which the committee on finance in 1797, pointed out as the first object under the head of expenditure, in their XIVth report. The annual charge is of no inconsiderable magnitude; and the following observations are intended to shew how far it may admit of reduction.—The rate of allowance settled in 1786, has not been varied since; but no documents are preserved at the treasury, or the bank, containing any calculations upon which it was founded. The proposal was made by Mr. Pitt, under general considerations of "the increased amount of the debt," and a reliance on the disposition of "the bank to give every reasonable accommodation to the public." The time at which the agreement was concluded, affording a prospect of continued peace, could present no expectation of a speedy augmentation of the debt, much less of such an augmentation as has since been incurred.—Whatever may have been the computation upon which the bargain was concluded, it is to be observed that the lowest rate at which a part of the debt was then managed (being 360
l.
l.
s.
l.
lxxxvii
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
lxxxix
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
£.60,750
at 150
l.
67,500
at 170
l.
76,500
l.
Incidental expences and sundries may be estimated at about
£.15,000
Buildings additional, and repairs, at about
10,000
Law expences, and losses by frauds and forgeries, at about
10,000
xc
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
l.
s.
d.
l.
xci
1.
The average balance of the cash kept at the Bank during the three months ending the 5th of January 1807, under the head of customs, excise, and stamps, appears to have been about
£.457,000
And under the head of the post-office, during several months in 1807, in which year that account was first opened, about
20,500
———
£.477,500
2.
The average balance of sundry other accounts, during a similar period of three months, to 5th January, 1807, viz. under the head of paymaster-general of the forces, treasurer of the navy, treasurer of the ordnance, barrack-master-general, transport office, agent-general of the volunteers, treasurer of Chelsea hospital, surveyor-general of woods and forests, accountant-general of the Court of chancery, and commissioners for the reduction of the land-tax
1,531,914
3.
The average amount of unclaimed dividends in the hands of the bank, during 1806, appears to have been.
1,341,154
Deduct the sum lent to government on that account without interest
376,739
———
964,415
4.
The average balance during the period of three months, to 5th January, 1807, in the hands of commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, arising from the dividends received by the commissioners on the stock purchased by them, and from the issue of sinking fund money
1,488,073
———
£.4,461,962
5.
A further balance of cash to a very large amount, consists of sums lying nominally in the exchequer, which nevertheless actually accumulate for the benefit of the bank, and are for the most part applicable at the end of each quarter, to the payment of dividends. It is the established usage at the bank to draw daily fr
xcii
circulation amount occasionally to several millions, and by their detention in the exchequer, both the bank and the public are placed in circumstances substantially the same as if the notes in question were carried to the bank, and constituted a balance due to the public on a deposit account, differing in no respect from other deposits.
Excheq. Bills.
Bank Notes.
Total Sum
In 1806
——
——
——
Jan. 10
2949000
8000
2957000
Feb. 7
2745000
9000
2754000
Mar.7
4715000
15800
4730800
Do. 28
6739000
15900
6754900
April 24
4997000
11300
5008300
May 23
5943000
1017400
6965400
June 20
6009000
3014800
9025000
July 18
4395000
15600
4320600
Aug. 15
4789000
1014200
5803200
Sept. 12
4326000
4515100
8841100
Oct. 10
5102000
4019700
9121700
Nov. 7
4270000
1512800
5782800
Dec. 5
3870000
3007200
6877200
Dec. 19
4398000
3012200
7410200
£.
65162000
21189000
86351000
The average amount of this total sum is
6,167,928
———
£.10,629,890
To this sum may be added a balance of a temporary nature, which has remained for no inconsiderable time in the bank, on account of the commissioners under the convention with the United States of America, and which is part of 600,000
l.
475,029
———
Total average balances
£.11,104,919
———
———
Your committee are aware, that in thus exhibiting average balances of cash in the bank, instead of the several actual balances, they may possibly be considered as presenting an unfair view of the subject; but it must be observed, that however fluctuating many of the individual balances may be, the aggregate is never likely to vary materially; and that in particular, if the balances of exchequer money, which are moderate in the early part of each quarter, and extremely large towards the conclusion of it, are compared with the balances of the commissioners for the sinking fund, and those on account of unpaid dividends, both of which are large in the beginning of each quarter. and small towards the
£.176,974
Under the second head, of paymaster-general, &c.
1,378,900
xciii
Under the third head, of unclaimed dividends, on 9th 
Oct. 1,033,175
Deduct 376,759
656,436
Under the fourth head, of the commissioners for the sinking fund, Oct. 11
389,197
And under the fifth head, of exchequer money, they were, on the 10th of October, being the day on which the exchequer monthly accounts were made up
9,121,700
———
10,167,333
———
Making the total on the 9th, 10th,and 11th of October, 1806
11,723,207
To which, if the money vested in the American commissioners be added
475,029
The Total actual balances will be
12,198,236
———
They also shew, that on the 1st of November, a period of about three weeks subsequent to the payment of the dividends, the balance under the first head of customs, &c. were 608,133
Under the second of paymaster, &c.
1,356,051
Under the third, of unclaimed dividends
1,559,144
Deduct as before
376,739
———
1,182,405
Under the fourth head, of sinking fund
2,217,171
And, under the fifth of exchequer money, they were, November 7, the day on which the exchequer monthly accounts were made up (being 4,270,000
l.
l.
5,782,800
———
9,182,376
———
11,148,160
Money of American commissioners
475,029
Making the total actual balaces on the 1st and 7th of November, 1806
11,623,189
They also shewth at,
———
On Dec. 1 1806, customs, &c. were
954,735
On 29th Nov. paymaster, &c.
1,403,155
On Dec.
1,173,129
Deduct
376,739
796,390
On the 29th Nov. sinking fund
1,511,815
Dec. exchequer bills 3,870,000
Bank notes 3,007,200
———
6,877,200
———
9,185,405
Together
14,548,295
xciv
Money of American commissioners
475,029
Total
12,018,324
They also shew that, On 8 Nov. customs, &c. were
587,904
On Do. Paymaster, &c.
1,415,85
On Do. unclaimed divs. probably
1,460,000
Deduct
376,739
1,080,261
On Do, sinking fund
2,116,363
7 Nov. exchequer:
Exchequer bills 6,427,000
5,782,800
Bank notes 1,512,800
———
8,982,424
———
Together
10,986,171
Money of American commissioners
475,029
Total
11,461,200
It thus appears that the aggregate actual balances, in four different periods of the quarter ending January 5, 1807, so far as these balances can be stated, fluctuated only between the sums of
10,986,171
and
11,723,207
475,029
475,029
———
———
11,461,200
12,198,236
———
———
The excess of the actual balances of this period above the average balances before stated, arises from the circumstance of its having been thought proper, in stating those average balances, to form the estimate of the average cash in the exchequer from an account of the whole year.—The magnitude of these balances, and of the profit which must be derived from them (a profit which is likely to increase during the war, but which may be subject to diminution on the return of peace) had attracted the attention of your committee no less than that of the allowance for the management of the national debt. The annual interest calculated upon them amounts to between 5 and 600,000
l.
xcv
xcvi
On 7 Feb. 1795
12,870,500
6 Feb. 1796
11,215,000
And on 1 Feb. 1806
12,856,770
And 1 Feb. 1806
12,333,430
l.
l.
xcvii
l.
xcviii
The productive quality of the floating balances is confirmed by a statement presented by the bank itself to the secret committee of the house of lords in 1797, (page 132). From thence it appears, that the bank-notes were, on the 25th of February, 1707
£.8,640,850
And the "drawing accounts' (or deposit accounts) and "audit roll" (or unclaimed dividends, &c.)
5,140,130
And the "surplus" (or undivided profit of the bank) which was of the nature of additional capital
3,826,890
———
Making together
17,597,280
This debit side of the account exhibited the total sum due both to the bank, proprietors
xcix
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
c
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
ci
l.
l.
l.
cii
l.
l.
l.
l.
ciii
civ
l.
l.
cv
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
cvi
l.
l.
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Administration, Change of, 231, 280, 350
American Trade Bill, 664, 682, 806
America,Dispute with, 926, 1183
American indemnity Bill, 769, 806, 996, 998
C
Capture of Monte Video, 502
Change of Administration, 231, 280, 350
Commerce of the Country. 229
D
Defence of the Country, 752
*
Dispute with America, 926, 1183
I
Irish Glebe Houses Bill, 837, 906
Irish Arms Bill, 1178
Irish Insurrection Bill, 989, 1023
K
King's Speech;
see
King's Messages relating to Sweden and Prussia, 986
L
Loan Interest Bill, 518
Lords Commissioners' Speech, on Closing the Session, 551, 1221
Lords Commissioners' Speech, on Opening the Session, 577
M
Militia Transfer bill, 1166, 1181, 1223
Monte Video, Capture of, 502
N
Neutral Powers, 1106
O
Offices in Reversion Bill, 1045
*
P
Parochial Schools Bill, 1174
Private Bills, 681
R
Reversion Bill, 1045
*
S
Scotch Judicature Bill, 62, 66, 83, 108, 109, 147, 187, 481, 493, 507, 515, 666, 1106
Slave-Trade Abolition bill, 146, 168
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Abbot, Rt. Hon. Charles, chosen Speaker, 566
Abolition of Slavery, 142
Administration, Change of, 172, 261, 284, 432
America, Dispute with, 929
Army Clothing and Agency, 810
Army, Propositions respecting the State of the, 1217
Assessed Taxes Bill, 1070
B
Beneficed Clergy Relief Bill, 1067
Barrack Commission, 425
Breach of Privilege, 688
C
Calico Printers' Bill, 532
Call of the House, 58
Carnatic Papers, 174
Cawthorne, Mr., Conduct of, 57
Commissions in the Army, Sale of, 749
*
Clothing of Veteran Battalions, 717
Consolidated Fund Bill, 1073
Cullen, lord, his Pension, 721
Change of Administration, 172, 261, 284, 432
Curacoa, Governor of, 507
D
Defence of the Country, 794, 860
Duchy of Lancaster, Motion respecting the Office of, 194
E
Election Recognizance Bill, 1068
East-India Company's Bonds Bill, 743
*
Election Petitions, 867
Estimates, Navy, Army, and Ordnance, 732
F
Freehold Estates Bill, 81, 159
Finance Committee, 425, 692, 1153
H
Hawkins, Sir C.;
see
Highmore, Dr., his Petition, 1154
I
India, Affairs of, 191
India Budget, 662
Irish Budget, 189, 1069
Irish Churches and Glebe Houses, 497
Irish Grand Jury Presentments, 499
Irish Protestant Church, 1024
Irish Revenue bills, 663
Irish Insurrection bill, 751
*
Irish Arms bill, 1057, 1086
Ireland, State of, 1025, 1185
Johnstone, Mr. C., his Petition, 70
Jenner, Dr., Reward to, 1007
K
King's Message relating to Engagements with Sweden, &c. 972
King's Message respecting a Vote of Credit, 974
King's Speech;
see
L
London Port improvement bill, 927
Lancaster Election, 177
Loan Interest Bill, 427
Lords Commissioners' Speech, on Opening the Session, 608
M
Monte Video, Capture of, 476
Mutiny Bill, 63, 101
Militia Transfer Bill, 931, 977, 1051, 1061
Mildmay, sir H., his Memorial, 676, 747
*
Militia Completion Bill, 1066
Mills, Mr. Galway; Petition against him, 733, 744
*
N
Nation, State of the, 734
Naval Abuses, 754
O
Offices in Reversion, 178, 669, 1072, 1158
P
Palmer, Mr., his Petition, 220
Parochial Schools Bill, 798, 853, 1050
Paull, Mr., his Petition respecting the Westminster Election, 23, 150
Penryn Election, 504, 509
Pensions to Lord Chancellors, 729, 731
Pensions, &c., held by Members of Parliament, 745
Petition of Mr. Cochrane Johnstone, 70
Petition of the West-India Planters, 85
Petition of Mr. Palmer, 220
Petition against Mr. Galway Mills, 733, 744
*
Places, Pensions, &c., held by Members of Parliament, 745
Poor-Laws Bill, 423, 490, 538, 846
Poole Writ, Complaint respecting the, 830, 838, 845, 974, 1005, 1016
Polygars, Papers relating to the, 851
Private Bills, Resolutions relating to, 670
Privilege, Breach of, 688
Prussian Subsidy, 20
Publicans' Licence bill, 1051, 1098
R
Reversion, Offices in, 178, 669, 1072, 1158
Roman Catholics Army and Navy Service bill, 2
Roman Catholic College at Maynooth, 796, 817
S
Sale of Commissions in the Army, 749
*
Scotch Taxes Regulation bill, 166
Shipping,British and Foreign,682
Sierra Leone Company's Bill, 1001
Sinking Fund, 813
Slave-Trade Abolition Bill, 59, 63, 114
Slavery, Abolition of, 142
Speaker, Choice of a, 566
Standing Order, for the Exclusion of Strangers, 744
State of the Nation, 734
State of Affairs, 1169
Subsidy to Prussia, and Sweden, 20, 1025
T
Treaties, Foreign, 929
V
Vaccine Inoculation, Reward to Dr. Jenner, 1007
Vellore, Mutiny at, 496
Volunteers, 831
W
Wellesley, Conduct of Marquis, 674
West-India Planters' Petition, 85
West- India Colonies, State of the, 1151
Westminster Election Petition, 23, 150
Writs, Delivery of, 1056
*
INDEX OF NAMES:—HOUSE OF LORDS.
Abercorn, Marquis of, 108
Arden, Lord, 1044
*
*
Aberdeen, Earl of, 352
Auckland, Lord, 84, 299, 482, 488, 493, 518, 664
Athol, Duke of, 495, 517, 667
Bathurst, Earl, 665, 769, 807
Bedford, Duke of, 992, 1023
Boringdon, Lord, 385, 583, 1049
*
Buckinghamshire, Earl of, 258, 354, 528, 601, 787
Camden, Earl, 421
Carlton, Lord, 993
Carnarvon, Earl of, 258
Canterbury, Archbishop of, 1176
Carysfort, Lord, 780
De Dunstanville, Lord, 1120
Dublin, Archbishop of, 907
Eldon, Lord, 68, 84, 111, 147, 188;
see
Erskine, Lord, 355, 487, 507, 515, 591, 777;
see
Fortescue, Earl, 581
Galloway, Earl of, 476, 503
Grenville, Lord, 66, 67, 83, 84, 108, 111, 146, 147, 168, 187, 231, 256, 418, 485, 494, 507, 517, 522, 601, 665, 666, 682, 770, 793
Grosvenor, Earl, 595, 1044
*
Hardwicke, Earl of, 354, 837, 906, 993
Harrowby, Lord, 366, 526, 665, 807
Hawkesbury,Lord, 247, 421, 475, 482, 484, 494, 526, 606, 664, 682, 769, 774, 927, 986, 988, 989, 1023, 1107, 1174, 1182
Holland, Lord, 257, 412, 482, 487, 529, 585, 591, 664, 666, 782, 806, 926, 987, 990, 996, 1023, 1047
*
Jersey, Earl of, 365
Kinnaird, Lord, 84, 386, 481, 488, 494, 521
Lauderdale, Earl of, 69, 84, 108, 112, 148, 403, 481, 488, 495, 606, 667, 808, 987, 1045
*
*
Limerick, Earl of, 411, 527, 781, 991
Llandaff, Bishop of, 168
Lord Chancellor (Erskine), 62, 66, 70, 84, 148, 258
Lord Chancellor (Eldon), 281, 422, 481, 486, 494, 517, 552, 577, 605, 665, 681, 778, 808, 1060, 1106, 1176, 1183, 1184, 1222
Mansfield, Earl of, 113, 579
Melville, Lord, 112, 148, 254, 483, 487, 1046
*
Moira, Earl, 252, 421, 502
Montrose, Duke of, 108, 109, 481, 521, 1023
Morton, Earl, 1184
Mulgrave, Lord, 407, 476, 522, 590, 808, 988, 1024, 1183
Norfolk, Duke of, 170
Redesdale, Lord, 110, 487, 787, 906, 1175
Rolle, Lord, 580
Rosslyn, Earl of, 598
Selkirk, Earl of, 110, 376, 597, 993, 1049
*
Sidmouth, Lord, 244, 389, 521, 595, 605, 752
*
Sligo, Marquis of, 170
Spencer, Earl, 503, 529, 776
Stafford, Marquis of, 260, 280, 351
Stanhope, Earl, 1106, 1177, 1183
Suffolk, Earl of, 769, 837
Westmoreland, Earl of, 168, 169, 231, 417, 524, 793
INDEX OF NAMES:—HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Abbot, Right Hon. C.;
see
Adam, W., 721, 727, 737
Addington, J. H. 61, 662, 675, 707, 950
Anstruther, Sir J. 674
Attorney-General (Sir V. Gibbs), 916
Babington, T. 981
Bankes, W. 20, 22, 178, 460, 506, 514, 568, 669, 705, 708, 747, 741
*
Barham, J. 65, 135, 746, 845, 976, 1006, 1055
*
Barry, J. 826
Bastard, J. P. 304, 940
Bathurst, B. 330, 472, 545, 650, 738, 879, 966
Biddulph, R. 699, 715
Binning, Lord, 941
Bourne, S. 203, 219, 514, 678, 688, 799, 853, 1010, 1102
Boyle, D. 698, 725, 917, 1044
Brand, T. 284, 699, 969
Browne, D. 641, 734, 737
Browne, I. H. 17, 450, 744, 818, 854, 1011
Calcraft, J. 541, 569, 655, 737
*
*
Calvert, N. 82, 162
Canning, G. 62, 163, 326, 341, 680, 687, 700, 726, 739
*
*
Carew, P. 858, 1050
*
Castlereagh, Lord, 101, 138, 467, 476, 690, 860, 967, 984, 1027, 1033, 1062, 1085
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Right Hon. Spencer Perceval), 314, 426, 427, 429, 430, 473, 492, 498, 500, 508, 509, 514, 550, 573, 627, 670, 673, 686, 692, 704, 713, 725, 740, 749, 738
*
*
*
Cochrane, Lord, 642, 704, 745, 738
*
*
Combe, H. C. 708, 928
Corry, I. 16, 496
Creevey, T. 675, 743
*
Craufurd, C. 289, 641
Cripps, J. 939
Croker, J. 651, 739, 912, 913
Curwen, J. C. 308, 491, 671, 703, 748
Dent, J. 177, 1001, 1068
Dickenson, W. 65, 172
Dillon, H. A. 824, 1092, 1208
Doyle, Sir J. 105
Duigenan, P. 324, 327, 497, 827
Dundas, W. 77, 725
Dundas, R. S. 496, 649, 662, 663, 724, 743
*
Eden, W. 143, 682, 1002
Elliott, W. 817, 1057, 1096
Ellis, C. 1151
Ellison, R, 538, 745
*
Erskine, H. 538, 542;
see
Euston, Lord, 933
Eyre, Col. 81
Fawkes, W. 107, 302
Fitzgerald, M. 304, 498, 499, 501
Fitzpatrick, R.;
see
Folkestone, Lord, 154, 674, 834, 907, 1063, 1086
Foster, J. 663, 796, 798, 817
Foster, J. L. 823, 826
Francis, sir P. 60, 132, 191
Fremantle, W. 16
Fuller, J. 60, 64, 214, 309, 540, 941
Gascoyne, I. 65, 183
Gibbs, Sir V.;
see
Giddy, D. 492, 533, 543, 798, 980
Gore, W. 453
Graham, General, 219
Grant, Sir W.;
see
Grant, C. 833, 851, 908, 1019
Grattan, H. 320, 643, 752
*
Grenville, T. 326, 656
Hall, B. 612, 709
Hamilton, Lord A. 509, 510
Harvey, E. 761
Henniker, Lord, 964
Herbert, Capt. 134, 144, 506, 510
Herbert, H. A. 669, 746
*
Hibbert, G. 85, 114, 435, 929, 1081, 1153
Hood, Sir S. 760
Hope, General, 650
Horner, F. 183, 326
Howick, Lord, 2, 18, 22, 56, 63, 149, 173, 179, 216, 261, 325, 338, 471, 614, 662, 663, 672, 680, 684, 709, 714, 720, 729, 731, 741, 748
*
Howorth, H. 496
Hurst, T. 506, 511
Huskisson, W. 185, 186, 708, 728, 729, 731, 737
*
Jacob, W. 100, 533
Jeffery, J. 830
Johnstone, C. 689, 692, 721, 724, 733, 745
*
*
Johnstone, G. 182, 187, 207, 212, 1018
Keck, L. 506, 511
Keene, W. 301, 1052
Knatchbull, sir E. 78
Laing, M. 724
Lamb, W. 287, 709
Laurence, F. 687, 704, 738, 742
*
*
Lefevre, S. 423, 906, 984, 1009
Lethbridge, T. B. 750
Lockhart, J. 933, 1212
Loftus, General, 279
Lord Advocate of Scotland (Mr. H. Erskine), 162
Lushington, S. 849, 1088, 1153
Lyttleton, W. H. 133, 432, 750
Macdonald, J. 451
Macleod, R. 1054
*
Markham, J. 761
Martin, H. 82, 183, 194, 679, 726
Master of the Rolls (Sir W. Grant), 160, 215, 474
Matthew, M. 480
Mildmay, Sir H. 641, 675, 747
*
Milnes, R. 439, 736
Milton, Lord, 648, 827, 919, 977, 1086
Montague, M. 14, 205
Moore, P. 146, 534, 743
*
*
Morris, E. 799, 846, 920, 1012
Murray, Sir P. 332
Newark, Lord, 608
Newport, Sir J. 181, 189, 455, 498, 657, 663, 669, 738, 824, 857, 911, 918, 925, 1024
Ord, W. 300
Osborn, J. 304
Ossulston, Lord, 750
Parnell, H. 186, 499, 501, 819
Peele, Sir R. 532
Perceval, S. 8, 38, 58, 106, 197;
see
Percy, Earl, 142, 472
Petty, Lord H. 21, 59, 61, 142, 166, 182, 200, 347, 425, 428, 654, 681, 686, 696, 805, 813, 822, 969, 1009, 1041, 1074, 1094, 1165
Piggott, Sir A. 736, 915, 1089
Plumer, W. 78, 181, 182, 200, 491
Plummer, T. W. 16, 135
Plunkett, W. C. 310, 315
Pole, Sir C. 59, 143, 763
Pollington, Lord, 650
Ponsonby, G. 1092
Porchester, Lord, 544
Porter, G. 58
Pulteney, Sir J. 105;
see
Robinson, J. 453
Romilly, Sir S. 327, 334, 704, 800;
see
Roscoe, W. 81, 454, 541
Rose, G. 61, 100, 104, 338, 512, 539, 684, 717, 726, 738
*
*
Russell, Lord W. 1210
Ryder, R. 654
Sebright, Sir J. 750, 1166
Secretary at War (General Fitzpatrick), 63, 76
Secretary at War (Sir J. Pulteney), 691, 749
*
Sharpe, R. 204, 543, 708
Shaw, J. 928
Sheridan, R. B. 23, 37, 38, 56, 57, 137, 144, 150, 184, 208, 213, 534, 744, 737
*
*
*
Shipley, Col. 104, 707
Simeon, J. 82, 160, 213, 544, 850, 858
Smith, H. 736
Smith, W. 571, 653, 691, 739, 751, 747
*
*
Smith, J. 750
Solicitor-General (Sir S. Romilly), 82, 163
Speaker (Right. Hon. C. Abbot), 58, 205, 325, 326, 504, 510, 572, 575, 670, 675, 744, 831, 846, 976, 1016
Stanhope, S. 543, 805
Stanley, Col. 932
Swann, H. 513
Symes, Col. 175
Sumner, H. 715
Tarleton, J. 720, 737, 983
Taylor, M. A. 151
Temple, Earl, 12, 101, 654, 718
Thornton, H. 133, 206, 429, 708, 1003
Tierney, G. 174, 178, 193, 462
Tighe, W. 451
Tuffnell, W. 159, 309
Turton, Sir T. 60, 174, 307, 428, 716, 831, 851, 979, 1053
*
Vansittart, G. 545
Vyse, R. 60
Ward, L. W. 50, 197, 425, 969, 1082, 1160
Ward, R. 763
Warrander, Sir G. 873, 981
Wellesley, Sir A. 670, 716, 751
*
Wharton, R. 301
Whitbread, S. 61, 70, 77, 155, 185, 334, 423, 490, 512, 514, 538, 549, 656, 706, 734, 745, 749, 741
*
*
*
*
Wickham, W. 497
Wilberforce, W. 101, 138, 139, 143, 146, 214, 501, 545, 737, 752, 742
*
Wilder, F. G. 57
Williams, Sir R. 931, 1062
Willoughby, H. 932
Windham, W. 103, 107, 136, 139, 474, 478, 508, 512, 546, 636, 690, 727, 763, 812, 818, 882, 920, 965, 982, 1049, 1043
*
*
Wood, M. 509, 980
Wortley, S. 653, 708
Wright, A.
Wynne, C. 162, 724, 745
*
Wynne, Sir W. W. 506, 511
Yorke, C. 13, 179, 566, 874