THE
Parliamentary Debates
FROM
THE YEAR
1803
TO THE PRESENT TIME:
FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED
"THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY OF ENGLAND FROM THE EARLIEST
PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803."
PUBLISHED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF
T. C. HANSARD.
VOL. VII.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
FROM
THE SIXTH DAY OF MAY
TO
THE TWENTY-THIRD DAY OF JULY
1806.
LONDON:
PRINTED FOR LONGMAN, HURST, REES, ORME, AND BROWN; CRADOCK AND JOY; J. BOCKF
1812.
THIS BOOK
TABLE OF CONTENTS
HOUSE OF LORDS.
1806 May 7. Slave Importation bill.—Lord Grenville, duke of Clarence, earl of West-moreland, earl of Moira, lord Hawkesbury
32
1806 May 12. Administration of Justice in Scotland.—Lord Grenville
93
American Intercourse bill.—Lord Hawkesbury, earl of Suffolk, lord Sheffield, lord Auckland, duke of Montrose, earl of Buckinghamshire, earl of Carnarvon
94
1806 May 14. Nelson Grant.—Earl Spencer
145
Insolvent Debtors' bill.—Lord Ellenborough, duke of Norfolk, lord Holland, lord Eldon, earl of Moira, lord Ellenborough
146
1806 May 16. Conduct of Judge Fox.—Lord Grenville, duke of Cumberland
226
Repeal of the Additional Force bill.—Lord Hawkesbury, lord Grenville
226
Slave Importation Restriction bill.—Duke of Clarence, earl of Suffolk, bishop of London, earl of Westmoreland, marquis of Sligo, lord Holland, bishop of St. Asaph, lord Eldon, lord Darnley, duke of Gloucester, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, lord Ellenborough, lord Eldon, lord Lauderdale, lord Sidmouth, duke of Sussex, earl of Buckinghamshire, lord Auckland, lord Sheffield
227
1806 May 17. Impeachment of Lord Melville.—Earl Stanhope, the lord chancellor, earl of Rosslyn
250
1806 May 20. Repeal of the Additional Force bill.—Earl Spencer, earl Camden, lord St. John, earl of Westmoreland, earl Spencer, lord Mulgrave, lord Holland, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Westmoreland, lord Sidmouth, earl Camden, lord Sidmouth, lord Mulgrave, earl of Derby, earl of Rosslyn, duke of Montrose, lord Sidmouth, earl of Darnley, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Carnarvon, earl Spencer, earl of Radnor, earl Grosvenor
270
1806 May 22. Repeal of the Additional Force bill.—Lord Eldon, earl of Rosslyn, lord Eldon, Earl Spencer, earl of Hardwicke, lord Holland, earl Spencer
328
1806 June 11. Military Opinions relating to the Army.—Lord Hawkesbury, earl of Moira, duke of Montrose, earl of Suffolk, lord Mulgrave, lord Grenville
604
1806 June 13. Mutiny bill.—Earl of Westmoreland, earl Spencer, earl of Westmoreland, earl Spencer, lord Boringdon, earl of Carnarvon, duke of Montrose, duke of Gloucester, earl Grosvenor, earl Camden, earl of Limerick, lord King, earl of Buckinghamshire, lord Hardwicke, lord Rosslyn, lord Hawkesbury, lord Holland, earl of Moira, lord Grenville
648
1806 June 14. Seymour Appeal Cause.—Lord Eldon, the lord chancellor, lord Ellenborough, marquis of Hertford
669
1806 June 17. Mutiny bill.—Lord Hawkesbury, earl of Lauderdale, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Suffolk, earl of Westmoreland
682
1806 June 18. Administration of Justice in Scotland.—Lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, duke of Montrose, the lord chancellor
730
1806 June 19. Petition of Judge Fox.—Lord Grenville, marquis of Abercorn, lord Eldon, the lord chancellor, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Moira, earl of Buckinghamshire, lord Auckland, earl of Hardwicke, earl Spencer, earl of Westmoreland
752
1806 June 20. Tortola Free-Port bill.—Duke of Montrose, lord Auckland, lord Hawkesbury, earl Spencer
778
1806 June 23. Protest against the Proceedings in the Case of Judge Fox
788
1806 June 24. Abolition of the Slave Trade.—Earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville, earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, bishop of London, the lord chancellor, earl of Westmoreland, bishop of St. Asaph, earl of Suffolk, lord Holland, earl Stanhope, earl Grosvenor, earl Fitzwilliam, lord Grenville
801
1806 June 26. Affairs of India.—Recall of sir G. Barlow.—Lord Melville
833
Temple Bar and Snow Hill Lottery bill.—Duke of Norfolk, the lord chancellor
834
1806 June 30. Affairs of India—Recall of sir G. Barlow.—Lord Melville, lord Minto, lord Melville, lord Minto, lord Melville
866
1806 July 2. Affairs of India—Recall of sir G. Barlow.—Lord Minto, earl of Westmoreland, lord Minto
873
1806 July 3. King's Message respecting the Royal Family.—Lord Grenville
899
Vaccine Inoculation.—The earl of Suffolk
901
1806 July 4. Custom House Fees bill.—The archbishop of Canterbury, lord Grenville, archbishop of Canterbury, bishop of St. Asaph
916
King's Message respecting Lord Rodney.—Lord Grenville
919
1806 July 8. Affairs of India—Recall of sir G. Barlow.—Lord Melville, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, lord Minto, lord Eldon, earl of Buckinghamshire, lord Melville, lord Ellenborough, lord Redesdale, the lord chancellor, lord Eldo
948
1806 July 11. Training bill.—Earl Spencer, lord Melville, earl of Moira, earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville, earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville, lord Sidmouth, lord Eldon, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Rosslyn, lord Eldon
1084
1806 July 14. Masters in Chancery bill.—The lord chancellor
1121
1806 July 15. Slave Ship Restriction bill.—The earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville, lord Eldon, earl of Lauderdale, lord Sidmouth, lord Redesdale, lord Ellenborough
1143
1806 July 17. American Intercourse bill.—Lord Hawkesbury, lord Holland, lord Eldon, earl Spencer, lord Hawkesbury, the earl of Lauderdale
1189
1806 July 21. Militia Officers bill.—The earl of Radnor, earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville, lord Eldon, earl of Moira, earl Fitzwilliam, earl of Hardwicke, earl Spencer, duke of Rutland, lord chancellor, earl Camden
1248
Public Harbours bill.—The earl of Limerick, lord Grenville
1251
1806 July 23. King's Speech at the Close of the Session.—The lord chancellor
1261
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
1806 May 6. Repeal of the Additional Force bill.—Mr. Secretary Windham, mr. Johnstone, colonel Graham, lord Castlereagh, mr. Denis Browne, lord H. Petty, mr. Babington, colonel Bagwell, mr. Lee, sir E. Hartopp, mr. Perceval, mr. secretary Fox, mr. Keck, mr. Fuller, mr. Canning, lord H. Petty, the lord advocate, mr. Hawthorne, mr. Bathurst
1
1806 May 7. Irish Budget.—Sir J. Newport, mr. Foster, mr. Corry, mr. Foster, mr. Parnell, mr. Rose, mr. Lee, sir J. Newport, mr. Grattan, mr. Foster
34
Property Duty bill.—Sir H. Mildmay, lord H. Petty, sir H. Mildmay, mr. W. Smith, sir R. Buxton, sir H. Mildmay, mr. Perceval, mr. Wilberforce, mr. S. Stanhope, lord H. Petty
50
1806 May 8. Irish Budget.—Mr. Rose, sir J. Newport, mr. Foster, sir J. Newport, mr. Corry,. mr. Rose, lord De Blaquiere, mr. Foster, sir J. Newport, mr. Lee, mr. Foster, mr. Alexander, mr. Foster, sir J. Newport
56
Army Estimates.—The secretary at war, mr. Yorke, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Perceval, the secretary at war, mr. Yorke, mr. Windham
62
Arrears of the Public Accounts.—Lord H. Petty
64
Affairs of India.—Mr. Paull, mr. Bankes, mr. sec. Fox, marquis of Douglas, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Francis, mr. Fox, mr. H. Addington, Dr. Laurence, mr. Paull
64
Repeal of the Additional Force bill.—Mr. Yorke, mr. Windham, mr. Yorke, mr. Windham, mr. Bankes, mr. sec. Windham, sir E. Hartopp, sir W. Milner, mr. G. Vansittart, mr. S. Lefevre, mr. Windham, general Tarleton, Dr. Laurence, mr. Ellison, mr. Fuller, lord Castlereagh
68
1806 May 9. Repeal of the Additional Force bill.—Mr. T. Jones, mr. Ellison, mr. Bankes, mr. Windham
74
Iron Duty bill.—Mr. Curwen, mr. S. Wortley, mr. Mordaunt, mr. H. Lascelles, mr. Wilberforce, sir R. Buxton, mr. Wilberforce, sir W. Young, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Calcraft, mr. Francis, mr. Vansittart, sir R. Milbanke, sir J. Wrottesley, mr. W. Smith, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. Fox, mr. Canning
74
1806 May 12. Affairs of India.—Sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, mr. Johnstone, mr. Creevey
103
King's Message respecting the Family of lord Nelson
106
Chalmers and Cowies' Petition.—Mr. W. Smith, mr. Huskisson, mr. W. Smith, mr. Long, mr. S. Bourne, lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson, mr. Rose, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Rose, mr. W. Smith
107
Conduct of Earl St. Vincent.—Mr. Windham, mr. Jeffery, lord H. Petty
109
Property Duty bill.—Mr. Francis, lord H. Petty, mr. W. Smith, mr. Francis, mr. Fuller, mr. T. Jones, mr. Vansittart, sir R. Buxton, mr. Vansittart, mr. H. Leigh, mr. Vansittart, mr. Fuller, mr. Vansittart, mr. H. Leigh, mr. Huskisson, mr. Ker, mr. Vansittart, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Vansittart, mr. Robson, mr. T. Jones, sir R. Buxton, lord H. Petty, mr. Francis, lord H. Petty, mr. Francis, mr. Fox, mr. Francis, mr. Prinsep, lord H. Petty, mr. W. Smith
109
1806 May 13. Repeal of the Additional Force bill.—Sir J. Pulteney, general Loftus, lord De Blaquiere, mr. Yorke, colonel Eyre, mr. Windham, mr. Perceval, mr. Windham, mr, Sheridan, mr. Yorke, mr. Perceval, mr. W. Smith, mr. Perceval, mr. Yorke, mr. Windham, mr. Yorke, mr. Windham
123
1806. May 13. Nelson Grant.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. Francis, mr. Rose, general Tarleton, mr. Wilberforce, lord H. Petty
141
1806. May 14. Conduct of Earl St. Vincent.—Mr. Jeffery, mr. Dent, the speaker, lord Howick, mr. Jeffery, lord Howick, admiral Markham, mr. Jeffery, lord Howick, admiral Markham, lord Garlies, lord Howick, Mr. Dent, mr. Bastard, Mr. Tyrwhitt, Mr. O. Markham, Mr. Bankes, lord Howick, mr. Fox, mr. Atkins, mr. Jeffery, the speaker, mr. Canning, mr. Fox, the speaker, mr. Jeffery
158
Vote of Thanks to Earl St. Vincent.—Mr. secretary Fox, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Yorke, mr. Canning, mr, Fox, mr. S, Bourne, mr. Tierney, mr. Bankes, sir C. Pole, mr. Perceval
208
1806 May 15. Affairs of India.—Mr. Paull, mr. Creevey, mr. Paull, mr. Creevey, mr. Francis, sir H. Inglis
215
Property Duty bill.—Mr. Prinsep, mr. Francis, mr. Vansittart, sir C. Price, mr. Vansittart, mr. Garland, lord H. Petty, mr. Wilberforce, sir R. Buxton, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Johnstone, mr. Vansittart, sir W. Geary, mr. Babington, mr. Fox, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Fox, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Francis, mr. Hudleston, mr. W. Smith, mr. Fox
217
1806 May 16. Barrack Abuses.—Mr. Robson, lord H. Petty, mr. Robson, lord H. Petty, mr. Bastard, mr. Robson, mr. Perceval, mr. Robson, the speaker, mr. Robson, the speaker, mr. Robson, mr. Paull, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. W. Smith, mr. Robson, mr. H. Addington, mr. Robson, mr. Calcraft, mr. Bastard, mr. Robson, mr. Calcraft, lord H. Petty, mr. Martin, mr. Robson, mr. Rose, mr. S. Bourne, mr. Calcraft, mr. Paull, mr. Bastard, mr. Huskisson, lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson, mr. Robson, sir J. Newport, Mr. W. Smith, mr. Robson, mr. Vansittart, mr. Robson, lord H. Petty, mr. W, Smith, mr. Robson, mr. Rose
237
First Report of the Military Commission.—Lord H. Petty
248
1806 May Chalmers and Cowie's Petition.—Mr. W. Smith, mr. Huskisson, mr.Long, mr. W. Smith, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose
248
1806 May 19. American Intercourse Bill.—Lord Temple, mr. Rose, lord Temple
252
Tortola Free-Port bill.—Lord Temple, mr. Rose, lord Temple, mr. Rose, lord Temple, mr. Rose
253
Irish Revenues Collection bill.—Sir J. Newport
254
Irish Additional Force Repeal bill.—Sir J. Newport
254
Tax on Private Brewers.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, sir R. Buxton, mr. Long, sir W. Geary, mr. Vansittart, mr. Huskisson, mr. Patteson, mr. Long, lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson, mr. Rose, Dr. Laurence, mr. Rose, Dr. Laurence, mr. Giles, mr. Huskisson, lord H. Petty, sir C. Pole, lord H. Petty, mr. S. Stanhope, lord H. Petty, mr. T. Jones, lord H. Petty, mr. Manning, mr. W. Smith, mr. Fuller, mr. Sheridan, mr. Baker, sir W. Geary, mr. Vansittart
255
Lord Nelson's Annuity bill.—Mr. Fuller
263
Property Duty bill.—Mr. Vansittart, mr. Wilberforce, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Hudleston, mr. Vansittart, sir H. Mildmay, mr. W. Smith, mr. Bankes, mr. T. Jones, lord H. Petty, sir H. Mildmay
263
1806 May 20. Debts of the Nabobs of Arcot.—Mr. W. Keene, mr. W. Dundas, mr. W. Keene, mr. Johnstone, mr. W. Keene, mr. Johnstone, Dr. Laurence, lord Castlereagh, mr. Francis, mr. Hobhouse, Dr. Laurence
284
1806 May 21. Poor-Laws.—Mr. Whitbread, mr. Rose, mr. Whitbread
292
Barrack Abuses.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Robson, lord H. Petty, mr. H Robson
293
West-India Accounts bill.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Fox, mr. Yorke, mr. Windham, mr. Bathurst, mr. Rose, mr. W. Dundas, the secretary at war, lord Castlereagh, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. Robson
295
1806. May 21. Army Estimates.—The secretary at war, general Tarleton, secretary at war, general Tarleton, mr. Whitbread, lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Perceval, mr. secretary Fox, mr. Canning, mr. Fox, mr. Yorke, mr. Windham, mr. Yorke, mr. Windham, sir J. Pulteney, Mr. H. Addington, mr. Matthews, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Rose, mr. Windham, Dr. Laurence, mr. Fox, lord De Blaquiere, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Matthews, general Tarleton, mr. S. Lefevre, mr. Ryder, mr. Fox, mr. W. Smith, mr. Ellison, mr. Windham, mr. Ellison
307
1806. May 22. Irish Customs Duty bill.—Mr. Foster, mr. Rose, sir J. Newport, mr. Foster, sir J. Newport, mr. Rose, mr. Corry, lord Castlereagh, mr. Grattan
331
Unaudited Accounts.—Mr. Rose
335
Election Treating bill.—Mr. Tierney, mr. secretary Fox
336
American Intercourse bill.—Lord Temple, mr. Rose, mr. secretary Fox, sir W. Curtis, lord Temple, mr. Rose, lord Temple, mr. Fox, lord Castlereagh, sir W. Young, sir C. Price, mr. Rose, lord Temple, mr. Rose, mr. Barham, sir W. Curtis, mr. Jeffery
336
1806. May 23. American Intercourse bill.—Sir W. Curtis, lord Temple, mr. Perceval, general Tarleton, lord Temple
349
Army Estimates.—General Tarleton, secretary at war. mr. Huskisson, lord Temple, general Tarleton, mr. Windham, mr. Perceval
349
Vote of Thanks to the Managers of the Impeachment of Lord Melville.—The secretary at war, the speaker, the secretary at war, mr. Perceval, sir J. Newport
351
Unaudited Accounts.—Mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, dr. Laurence, mr. Huskisson, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Paull, lord H. Petty, mr. W. Dundas, the secretary at war, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty
354
Tortola Free-Port bill.—Mr. Rose, mr. S. Bourne, mr. Perceval
364
1806. May 28. Affairs of India—Oude Charge against Marquis Wellesley.—Mr. Paull, sir A. Wellesley, mr. W. Keene, mr. Francis, mr. secretary Fox, mr. Bankes, mr. Paull, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, mr. R. Thornton, mr. W. Pole, the speaker, mr. Paull
366
Property Duty bill.—Mr. Francis, the speaker, mr. Vansittart, sir R. Buxton, mr. Vansittart, mr. Johnstone, mr. Vansittart, mr. Johnstone, lord H. Petty, mr. Francis, mr. secretary Fox, the speaker, mr. Bankes, lord H. Petty, sir R. Buxton, mr. Vansittart, mr. W. Smith, mr. Hudleston, lord De Blaquiere, mr. Vansittart, mr. Wright
394
1806. May 30. Affairs of India.—Papers relating to Sir R. Sullivan.—Mr. Sullivan, mr. W. Keene, mr. Sullivan, mr. Ellison
414
Mutiny bill—Limited Service.—Lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham, lord Castlereagh, mr. Windham, mr. Perceval, mr. Windham, mr. Canning, mr. Windham, mr. O'Hara, mr. Yorke, mr. Windham, sir J. Pulteney, mr. Yorke, colonel Craufurd, sir J. Pulteney, col. Craufurd, general Loftus, general Norton, mr. Canning, mr. secretary Fox, mr. Perceval
419
1806 June 2. Affairs of India.—Mr. Paull, lord Temple, mr. Paull, sir Arthur Wellesley
482
Property Duty bill.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, lord H. Petty
483
Mutiny bill—Limited Service.—Lord Castlereagh, mr. Grattan, the master of the rolls, the solicitor-general, general Norton, colonel Craufurd, sir W. Lemon, lord Louvaine, general Stuart, mr. Grattan, general Stuart, mr. Bankes, lord Garlies
483
1806 June 3. American Intercourse bill.—Lord Castlereagh, lord Temple, mr. Perceval, mr. Plumer, mr. Perceval, mr. Plumer, mr. Rose, lord Temple
507
Abolition of the Slave Trade.—Mr, sec. Fox, general Tarleton
508
Affairs of India—Oude Charge.—Lord Temple, mr. Paull, lord A.
Hamilton, sir J. Newport, sir A. Wellesley, lord A. Hamilton, sir J. Newport, sir A. Wellesley, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Golding. mr. Fox, dr. Laurence, lord Castlereagh, mr. Johnstone, lord H. Petty
509
Exemptions from Taxes.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Long, lord H. Petty, mr. Wilberforce
513
Corn Intercourse bill.—Sir John Newport
514
Mutiny bill.—Mr. S. Bourne, mr. sec. Windham, sir J. Pulteney
515
1806 June 5. Affairs of India—Oude Charge—Mr. Paull, mr. sec. Fox, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, mr. Fox, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Fox, mr. Paull, mr. Francis, mr. Fox, mr. Paull, sir H. Strachey, mr. Paull
518
Corn Intercourse bill.—Mr. Foster, mr. Weston, sir John Newport, mr. Foster
520
1806 June 6. Abandonment of the Tax on Private Brewers.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Coke, sir R. Buxton, lord H. Petty, mr. Baker, mr. Long, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Johnstone, mr. T. Jones, sir W. W. Wynne, mr. W. Smith, sir W. W. Wynne, mr. Calvert, mr. Rose, mr. Whitbread, mr. Combe
523
Mutiny bill—Limited Service.—Mr. Wallace, mr. Wilberforce, mr. H. Addington, general Tarleton, the lord advocate, mr. Johnstone, mr. Whitbread, mr. S. Bourne, lord H. Petty, mr. Canning, mr. sec. Fox, general Norton, mr. Rose jun., mr. Perceval
528
1806 June 9. Affairs of India—Furruckabad charge against Marquis Wellesley
561
Assessed Taxes.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson, mr. Francis, mr. Dent, mr. Baker, mr. Bastard, lord H. Petty
569
Election Treating bill.—Mr. Langham, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Morris, sir W. Dolben, sir R. Buxton, sir W. Dolben, mr. Baker, mr. Tierney, mr. sec. Fox
571
Chelsea Hospital bill.—Mr. Bastard, mr. Windham, mr. Huskisson, sir J. Pulteney, dr. Laurence, mr. sec. Fox, mr Windham
574
Linen Drawback bill.—Mr. Foster, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Magens, lord Temple, mr. Foster, lord Temple, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, sir J. Newport
575
1806 June 10. Assessed Taxes bill.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson, lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson, lord H. Petty, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Huskisson, lord H. Petty
578
Abolition of the Slave Trade.—Mr. sec. Fox, sir R. Milbanke, general Tarleton, mr. Francis, lord Castlereagh, the solicitor-general, general Gascoyne, mr. Wilberforce, sir W. Young, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Barham, sir J. Newport, mr. Canning, mr. Manning, mr. W. Smith, mr. Windham, mr. Fox, mr. Wilberforce
580
1806 June 11. West-India Accounts Bill.—Mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose
608
Affairs of India.—Mr. Paull, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, mr. W. Pole, Mr. Creevey, mr. Paull
610
Chelsea Hospital bill.—Mr. Huskisson, general Tarleton, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Huskisson, sir J. Pulteney, lord Castlereagh, mr. Windham
611
1806 June 12. Accounts relating to Foreign Corps.—Mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Rose, mr. Wickham, mr. Rose, mr. secretary Fox
614
Chelsea Hospital bill.—Lord Castlereagh, sir W. Young, lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Perceval, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Canning, the attorney-general, mr. Rose, lord Temple
618
1806 June 13. West-India Accounts bill.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. sec. Fox, mr. Perceval, mr. Rose, mr. Fox, mr. Rose, lord Castlereagh, mr. Fox, mr. Perceval, lord H. Petty
661
American Intercourse bill.—Mr. Perceval, lord Temple, mr. Perceval, the speaker, lord Temple, mr. Rose, lord De Blaquiere, mr. Perceval, lord Temple, mr Fox, mr. Rose, sir C. Price, mr. sec. Fox
66
1806 June 16. Debts of the Nabobs of Arcot.—Mr. Hobhouse, mr. Francis, mr. Hobhouse, the speaker, mr. Ryder
673
Impeachment of Lord Melville.—Mr. Whitbread, sir H. Mildmay, mr. Whitbread, mr. Dent, mr. Whitbread, mr. R. Dundas, mr. Fuller, lord H. Petty, mr. Whitbread, mr. R. Dundas
673
Greenwich Hospital bill.—Lord Howick, mr. Canning, lord Howick
675
West-India Accounts bill—Mr. Rose, the speaker, mr. Ryder, mr. Rose, lord Howick, mr. Rose, mr. S. Bourne, attorney-general, mr. Johnstone, lord Howick, dr. Laurence, sir W. Young
676
1806 June 17. Affairs of India.—Mr. Wallace, lord Morpeth, mr. Paull, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, lord Temple, mr. Paull
684
American Intercourse bill.—Mr. Rose, lord Temple, sir C. Price, sir W. Young, sir W. Curtis, sir F. Baring, mr. Prinsep, lord Temple, mr. Perceval, the attorney-general, mr. Canning, dr. Laurence, sir J. Newport.—List of the minority
686
1806 June 18. Affairs of India.—Oude Charge.—Mr. Bankes, the master of the rolls, mr. sec. Fox, Mr. Paull, mr. Garrow, mr. Johnstone, mr. Paull, lord Temple, mr. Francis, mr. Rose, mr. Paull, mr. Garrow, dr. Laurence, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Garrow, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Paull
736
1806 June 19. Irish Election bill.—Mr. Alexander, sir J. Newport, colonel Vereker, sir J. Newport, Mr. S. Bourne, mr. Alexander, mr. Foster, mr. 0'Hara, Lord Temple, sir .J. Newport, colonel Bagwell, dr. Laurence, mr. S. Bourne, mr. Alexander, lord Temple, mr. Foster
772
Affairs of India—Oude Charge.—Sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, mr. Johnstone, earl Temple, mr. Hutchisson, mr. sec. Fox, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, sir A. Wellesley, col. Wood
776
1806 June 20. Affairs of India—Motion for printing the First Charge against marquis Wellesley.—mr. Paull, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, the speaker, lord Folkestone, the speaker, sir J. Wrottesley, mr. Rose, mr. sec. Windham, lord Folkestone, mr. S. Bourne, the speaker, mr. Paull
780
Affairs of India—Oude Charge.—Lord Folkestone, mr. Paull, lord Temple, mr. Hurst, mr. Paull
783
1806 June 23. Irish Election bill.—Sir J. Newport, col. Vereker
790
King's Message respecting Greenwich Hospital.—Lord H. Petty
790
Auditors of Public Accounts bill.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose
791
Affairs of India—Oude Charge.—Mr. Paull
799
24. King's Message respecting Greenwich Hospital.—Lord Howick
809
Globe Insurance bill—Lord Castlereagh, lord H. Petty, sir J. Anderson
812
Training bill—Lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham, col. Bagwell, sir J. Pulteney, mr. S. Stanhope, sir W. Milner, lord Castlereagh, mr. H. Martin, mr. Matthews, sir W. Young, mr. W. Smith, mr. Perceval, mr. Paull, the speaker, mr. Bathurst, mr. Perceval, mr. Bathurst, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Canning
813
1806 June 25. Affairs of India—Motion for printing the First Charge against marquis Wellesley.—Sir A. Wellesley, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Rose, marquis of Douglas, mr. Windham, lord Castlereagh, lord H. Petty, mr. Bankes, mr. Grant, dr. Laurence, mr. W. Pole, mr. Sheridan, mr. Paull, mr. Johnstone, Lord Folkestone, lord H. Petty
830
1806 June 26. Volunteers.—Mr. C. Wynne, mr. Bastard, mr. C. Wynne, mr. Long, mr. C. Wynne
837
1806 June Bankrupt Laws bill.—The solicitor-general
839
Irish Poor Relief bill.—Mr. Bagwell, mr. Foster, mr. Bagwell, sir J. Newport, mr. Alexander, mr. Parnell
842
Training bill.—Mr. Yorke, mr. sec. Windham, sir J. Pulteney, mr. Perceval, col. Wood, mr. Calcraft, mr. Bastard, mr. Sec. Windham, lord Castlereagh, mr. Whitbread, mr. Bankes, col. Eyre, mr. C. Wynne, lord Binning, col. Matthews, mr. Huskisson, mr. Calvert, mr.
sec. Windham, mr. Yorke, mr. Ryder, mr. Yorke, dr. Laurence, mr. Ellison, lord Castlereagh
844
1806 June 7. Ballot Suspension bill.—Lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham
856
Philanthropic Society Bill.—Mr. Holford, dr. Laurence, mr. Holford
857
Bell Rock Light-house.—The lord advocate, lord H. Petty, mr. Baker, the lord advocate, mr. Perceval, the lord advocate, mr. Johnstone, mr. W. Smith
860
Training bill.—Sir J. Pulteney, mr. sec. Windham, lord Castlereagh, mr. Windham, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Windham, mr. Perceval, mr. Bastard, lord H. Petty, mr. S. Stanhope, sir J. Newport, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Calvert, mr. Yorke, mr. Windham, sir J. Pulteney
862
1806 June 30. Barrack Abuses.—The secretary at war, mr. Robson
869
1806 July 1. Barrack Abuses.—The secretary at war, mr. Robson, the speaker, mr. Robson, the secretary at war
871
Irish Quit Rent bill.—Mr. J. Fitzgerald, sir J. Newport, mr. Foster
872
2. King's Message relating to the Royal Family.—Lord H. Petty
875
Auditors of the Public Accounts bill.—Mr. T. Jones, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, the attorney-general, mr. Huskisson, mr. T. Jones, mr. Windham
876
Assessed Taxes Allowance bill.—Mr. Huskisson, lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson
878
Vaccine Inoculation.—Lord.H. Petty, dr. Matthews, mr. Wilberforce, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Bankes, mr. W. Smith, mr. Paull, lord H. Petty
879
1806 July 3. King's Message respecting lord Rodney's Annuity.—Lord H. Petty
902
King's Message respecting Note of Credit
903
Militia Ballot Suspension bill.—Sir W. Elford, Mr. Windham
903
Training bill.—Sir H. Mildmay, mr. Eyre, sir R. Williams, mr. Fonblanque, mr. Bastard, general Loftus, mr. Matthews, mr. Giles, mr. Ryder, mr. C. Wynne, sir R. Lawley, lord Kirkwall, lord De Blaquiere, lord Binning, lord advocate, mr. Canning, mr. sec. Windham, mr. R. Dundas, lord advocate, mr. Rose jun
904
1806 July 4. Masters in Chancery bill.—The master of the rolls
920
Training bill.—Mr. Yorke, mr. sec. Windham, mr. W. Smith, mr. Yorke, mr. Francis, lord Castlereagh, mr. Francis, mr. Windham, mr. Yorke, lord advocate, mr. Yorke, mr. Perceval
921
King's Message respecting the Royal Family.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty
923
Affairs of India—Oude Charge.—Mr. Paull, lord Temple, lord Folkestone, col. Wood, dr. Laurence, mr. Canning, dr. Laurence, mr. R. Thornton, master of the rolls, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Paull, mr. Perceval, mr. W. Smith, sir A. Wellesley, mr. R. Thornton, mr. W. Pole, mr. Paull, mr. Grant, lord Castlereagh, dr. Laurence, lord Castlereagh, mr. Martin, mr. Burton, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, mr. Johnstone, sir J. Newport, the solicitor-general, mr. Hutchinson, lord Temple
925
7. Affairs of India—Supplementary Charge against marquis Wellesley.—Sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, mr. W. Pole, mr. Sheridan, mr. Paull
938
Debts of the Nabobs of Arcot.—Mr. Francis, mr. Sullivan, lord H. Petty, mr. Grant, sir A. Wellesley, mr. R. Thornton, dr. Laurence, mr. H. Martin, mr. Hobhouse
940
1806 July 8. Royal Family Annuities bill.—Mr. R. Colborne, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose
968
American Intercourse bill.—Sir C. Price, mr. Broderick, mr. S. Bourne, mr. Mainwaring, sir W. Young, sir W. Curtis, lord De Blaquiere, lord Temple, lord Castlereagh, lord H. Petty, the master of the rolls, the attorney-general, mr. Perceval, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Rose
969
1806 July 9. Calico Printers.—Mr. Moore, col. Stanley
1014
Royal Family Annuities bill.—Col. Wood, lord Temple, sir W. Elford, col. Wood
1015
Committee of Supply.—Lord H. Petty, mr. Paull, mr. Windham, mr. Huskisson, mr. S. Lefevre, lord H. Petty, mr. T. Jones, mr. Paull, mr. Burton
1017
Volunteer Officers' bill.—Mr. Combe, mr. Windham, mr. Combe, mr. Perceval, mr. Windham, mr. H. Lee, mr. Windham
1019
Auditors of Public Accounts bill.—Mr. T. Jones, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson
1021
1806 July 10. Oude Supplementary Charge—Rajah of Sasnee.—Mr. Paull
1026
Militia Officers' bill.—Mr. sec. Windham, sir W. Elford, col. Wood, mr. Perceval, sir W. Elford, the secretary at war, mr. Perceval, mr. Windham, lord Castlereagh, mr. Alexander, lord Castlereagh, lord Temple, lord De Blaquiere, colonel Craufurd, general Tarleton
1036
Volunteer Officers' Rank bill.—Mr. alderman Combe, mr H. Addington, mr. S. Bourne, lord Temple, general Tarleton, sir C. Price, lord De Blaquiere, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Perceval, mr. Long, general Tarleton, mr. C. Wynne, mr. Ryder, mr. Windham, mr. Long, mr. Windham
1040
India Budget.—Lord Morpeth, mr. Johnstone, lord H. Petty, lord Castlereagh, mr. Francis, sir A. Wellesley, mr. W. Keene, mr. Grant, mr. Priasep, mr. Hobhouse, mr. Paull, sir A. Wellesley, mr. G. Smith, mr. Prinsep, lord Castlereagh
1044
1806 July 11. Grenada and St. Vincent's Loan bill.—mr. Baker, mr M'Dowall, the attorney-general, mr. R. Dundas, mr. M'Dowall mr. Johnstone, mr. Francis
1092
Bill sent by Mistake to the Lords.—Mr. Hobhouse, mr. Baker, mr. Hobhouse
1094
Debts of the Nabobs of Arcot.—Mr. Ryder, lord H. Petty, mr. Windham, mr. Perceval, mr. Francis, the attorney-general, mr. Rose, mr. Sheridan, lord Castlereagh, mr. Sheridan, mr. Grant, mr. Johnstone
1095
Treasurership of the Navy.—Mr. Whitbread, mr. Leycester, mr. Whitbread, mr. R. Dundas, mr. Sheridan, mr. Perceval, mr. Whitbread, mr. Sheridan, mr. Fuller
1097
Royal Family Annuities bill.—Col. Wood, mr. W. Smith, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty
1104
Vote of Thanks to the Volunteers.—Sir H. Mildmay, mr. Dent, sir R. Milbanke, general Phipps, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Fuller, lord Ossulston, mr. Bankes, sir R. Williams, mr. Wilberforce, general Tarleton, mr. Sheridan, mr. Perceval, mr. Sheridan, lord Howick, mr. Canning, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Whitbread, lord Castlereagh, mr. Sheridan, lord Howick, mr. Canning, mr. H. Addington, lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, mr. Vansittart
1105
14. Resolutions relating to Public Accounts.—Mr. Huskisson, lord H. Petty, mr. Huskisson, mr. Baker, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, mr. Yorke, mr. Bastard, mr. Huskisson, mr. Perceval, mr. Huskisson, mr. Paull, the speaker, mr. Baker
1121
Financial Propositions.—Mr. Johnstone
1126
Increased Pay to the Army.—The secretary at war, sir A. Wellesley, mr. sec. Windham, lord De Blaquiere, the secretary at war, lord Temple, the secretary at war, mr. Francis, mr. Windham, lord Temple, mr. Windham, col. Craufurd
1133
Militia Officers' bill.—Sir W. Elford, mr. Yorke, mr. Bastard, lord Temple, mr. Bankes, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Yorke, mr. Perceval, mr. Giles, lord De Blaquiere, mr. O'Hara, sir W. Lemon, mr. Ellison, col. Craufurd, col. Mitford, mr. Windham
1137
1806 July 15. Public Harbours bill.—Col. Wood, sir C. Pole, col. Vereker, mr. Huskisson, lord H. Petty, mr. Foster
1145
Pilots' bill.—Lord Temple, mr. Alderman Prinsep
1146
Lord Nelson's Annuity bill.—Col. Wood, the speaker, mr. Rose, mr. Francis, mr. H. Addington, mr. Wilberforce, lord H. Petty
1147
India Budget (Resumed Debate).—Mr. Grant, Alderman Prinsep, lord Castlereagh, dr. Laurence, mr. Robson
1153
1806 July 16. Mr. Pitt's Debates.—Lord Folkestone, mr. Vansittart, lord Folkestone, mr. Vansittart
1175
Barrack Abuses.—Mr. Robson, lord H. Petty, the secretary at war, mr. Robson, mr. Martin, mr. Paull, mr. Canning, mr. Windham, the secretary at war, mr. Robson, mr. Paull, mr. Robson
1175
Militia Officers' bill.—Mr. Perceval, lord Folkestone, mr. Windham, mr. C. Wynne
1184
India Budget.—Mr. Robson, lord Morpeth, mr. Grant, mr. Paull
1187
1806 July 18. Barrack Abuses.—The secretary at war, mr. Robson, the speaker, lord H. Petty, mr. Robson, the secretary at war, mr. Paull, the secretary at war, mr. Robson
1190
Financial Propositions.—Mr. Johnstone, lord H. Petty, dr. Laurence
1192
India Budget (Resumed Debate).—Mr.T. Jones, lord Morpeth, mr. T. Jones, dr. Laurence, mr. Hobhouse, mr. T. Jones, dr. Laurence, mr. Paull, mr. T. Jones, mr. Johnstone, sir A. Wellesley, mr. Paull, mr. Grant, mr. T. Jones, mr. Martin, Mr. Hudleston, mr. Alderman Prinsep, mr. Hudleston, lord Castlereagh, dr. Laurence, mr. T. Jones, mr. W. Keene, mr. Johnstone, mr. Grant, mr. alderman Prinsep
1194
1806 July 21. Barrack Abuses.—Mr. Robson, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Robson, mr. sec. Windham, mr. T. Jones, sir W. Elford, mr. Robson, lord H. Petty, mr. T. Jones
1252
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS, PETITIONS, PROTESTS, LISTS, &C.
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
Article of Charge of High Crimes and Misdemeanours, committed by marquis Wellesley in his Transactions with respect to the Nabob Vizier of Oude
366
Article of charge of High Crimes and Misdemeanours, committed by marquis Wellesley, in his Transactions with respect to the Nabob of Furruckabad
561
Article of Charge of High Crime and Misdemeanours, committed by marquis Wellesley, in his Transactions with the Zemindar of Sasnee, &c.
1026
King's Message respecting the Family of Lord Nelson
106
King's Message respecting Greenwich Hospital
790
King's Message relating to the Royal Family
875
King's Message respecting Lord Rodney's Annuity
902
King's Message respecting a Vote of Credit
903
King's Speech at the close of the Session
1261
FINANCE—Great Britain.
Account of the Amount of all Exemptions, granted to Foreigners, in respect of their Duty on Dividends, in the various Funds of Great Britain, &c. Appendix,
I
Abstract Statement of the Public Income of Great Britain, for the year ended 5th Jan. 1806
iii
Account of the Income of and Charges upon the Consolidated Fund, for the year ending 5th April, 1806
v
Account of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain, for the year ended 5th Jan. 1806
vii
Account of the, Net Produce of the Permanent Taxes, and the War Taxes, for the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
xi
Account of the Value of all Imports into, and all Exports from, Great Britain, for 18 years, ending 5th Jan. 1806
xv
Account of the Number of Vessels, with the Amount of their Tonnage, which have been annually built and registered in the several Ports of the British Empire, between 5th Jan. 1804, and 5th Jan. 1806
xv
Account of the Public Expenditure of Great Britain, for the year ended 5th Jan. 1806
xvii
Account of the Monies paid out of the Exchequer, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, towards satisfying the Charges of the Public Funded Debt of Great Britain and Ireland, and Imperial Loans
xix
Account of the Total Amount of the Sums actually received by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
xix
Account of the Charges upon the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
xxi
Account of the Interest paid on Exchequer Bills, from 5th Jan. 1805, to 5th Jan. 1806
xxiii
Account of the Amount of Bounties paid in England and Scotland, and of the Revenues of Customs and Excise, between 5th Jan. 1805, and 5th Jan. 1806; being Payments in the nature of Anticipation of Exchequer Issues
xxiii
Account, shewing the Amount of Monies received from the Exchequer for Naval Services, between 5th Jan. 1805, and 5th Jan. 1806
xxv
Account of Monies paid by the Office of Ordnance, in the year 1805
xxvii
Account of the Miscellaneous Services, for the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
xxix
Account of the Unfunded Debt and Demands outstanding on 5th Jan. 1806
xxxii
Account of the Notes of the Bank of England, in circulation from 1st Feb. 1805, to 1st Feb. 1806
xxxii
Account of the Notes of the Bank of Ireland, in circulation, from 1st Feb. 1805, to 1st Feb. 1806
xxxii
Account of the Progress made in the Redemption of the Public Funded Debt of Great Britain, at 1st Feb. 1806
Account of the Progress made in the Redemption of the Public Debt of Ireland, funded in Great Britain, at 1st Feb. 1806
xxxv
Account of the Progress made in the Redemption of the Imperial Debt, at 1st Feb. 1806
xxxvii
FINANCE—Ireland.
Abstract Statement of the Public Income of Ireland, for the year ended 5th Jan. 1806
xxxix
Account of the Consolidated Fund of Ireland, for the year ended 5th Jan. 1806
xliii
Account of the Public Expenditure of Ireland, for the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
xlv
Account of the Monies paid out of the receipt of the Exchequer, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, towards satisfying the charge of the Public Funded Debt of Ireland
xlvii
Account of the sums actually received by the Commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt of Ireland, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
xlvii
Account of the Interest on Exchequer Bills of Ireland, with the payments made from 5th Jan. 1805, to 5th Jan. 1806
xlvii
Account of Payments made for purposes appointed by the Parliament of Ireland, prior to the Union, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
xlvii
Account of Payments made from the funds appropriated for local purposes in Ireland, from 5th Jan. 1805, to 5th Jan. 1806
xlix
Account of Payments in the year, to 5th Jan. 1806, under the several heads of Civil List, Pensions, and other permanent charges
xlix
Account of the amount of Bounties paid out of the public revenue of Ireland, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, being payments in the nature and anticipation of Exchequer receipts
xlix
Account of the amount of Payments to the Militia, Army of Reserve, &c. of Ireland, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
xlix
Account of Monies paid to the Office of Ordnance of Ireland in the year, to 5th Jan. 1806
xlix
Account of monies paid on Account of his Majesty's Forces in Ireland, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
li
Account shewing the Payments in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, for Miscellaneous Services in Ireland
li
Account of the amount of Payments from the Vote of Credit, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
liii
Account of the value of all Imports into, and all Exports from Ireland, for the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
liii
Account of the number of Vessels, with the amount of their tonnage, which have been built and registered in the several ports of Ireland, between 5th Jan.1805, and 5th Jan. 1806
liii
Account of the number of Vessels, with the amount of their tonnage, and number of men and boys actually employed in navigating the same, which belonged to the, several ports of Ireland on 30th Sept. 1805
liii
Account of the Public Funded Debt of Ireland, on 5th Jan. 1806
lv
Account of the Unfunded Debt of Ireland, on 5th Jan. 1806
lix
Account shewing how the Monies granted for the service of the year 1805 for Ireland, have been disposed of
lxi
PETITIONS.
Petition of the hon. mr. justice Fox to the House of Lords
752
PROTESTS.
Protest against the American Intercourse bill
116
Protest against the Proceedings in the Case of mr. justice Fox
788
LISTS.
List of the Minority in the House of Commons, on the motion for the second reading of the American Intercourse bill
729
List of Public Acts passed during the fourth Session of the Second Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
1263
During the Fourth Session of the Second Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom of Great Britain the Nineteenth, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-first Day of January, 1806, in the Forty-sixth Year of the Reign of King GEORGE the Third.[
Sess
1
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, May 6, 1806.
[MINUTES.]
A message was received from the lords acquainting the house that their lordships would proceed farther in the Trial of lord Melville, on Thursday next, at 10 of the clock, in Westminster-hall. Also that their Lordships had agreed to the Sea Offence Bill without any amendment.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart the order for the third reading of the Iron Duty bill on Thursday was read, when he moved that the order be discharged, and the bill ordered for recommitment on Friday next. He was induced to make this motion from a desire on the part of his majesty's ministers, that the subject might meet with the maturest consideration. The order was made accordingly.—Mr. W. Smith brought up the report of the committee of ways and means relative to the duty on the exportation of Iron, which was read a first and second time and agreed to, and instructions ordered to be given to the committee of the whole house on the Iron Duty bill, to make provisions therein accordingly.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee of ways and means on the extension of the duty on Iron to the stock in hand. The resolutions were read and agreed to, and instructions directed to be given to the committee on the Iron duty to make provisions in the said bill accordingly.—The Lord Advocate of Scotland brought in the bill For increasing the Salaries of the Judge of the Court of Admiralty and of the Judges of the Commissary Court, which was read a first time.
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]—Mr. Secretary Windham
moved the
2
Mr. Johnstone rose,
and observed that having upon a former occasion voted for the proposition of the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) respecting this bill, he now rose to trouble the house with a few explanations of the motives which had decided him to give that vote. When the Additional-Force bill was first brought in, he had opposed it because he thought it would never be productive; and though it had proved more so than he had expected, yet so many objections occurred to its principle and practice, that he should not have voted as he had done the other night, if the proposition had been of a nature to prevent the house from repealing the act during the session. From the development of the rt. hon. gent.'s (Mr. Wind-ham's) plan, which had been given to the house, he had the strongest objections to it. The expression of the rt. hon. gent. in describing the present state of the public force, was, that our army appeared as if they had clubbed the battalion, and every thing was in an order of inversion or retrogradation; he therefore strongly dwelt upon the necessity of a system of regulation calculated to cure these disorders. The rt. hon. gent. had emphatically said, that the fate of nations was decided by armies; and after stating that position in a manner so forcible as he had done, he (Mr. J.) owned he was prepared to expect some plan infinitely more efficient than that which had been suggested. When experience had shewn the extreme difficulty of procuring recruits for our
3
d.
4
l
Colonel Graham
recurred to a statement he had made upon the last night this bill was in discussion, respecting the practice on the continent of enlisting men for limited service, even in time of war, which an hon. gent. on the other side of the house was pleased totally to deny. He was not just at that moment prepared to refute the hon. member, by the production of any authority on which he could positively rely. But he had since felt it his duty to make more minute enquiry from persons most competent to give him information, namely several French officers, now in London, all of whom had corroborated his former assertions, and stated, that both before and since the revolution, the practice had prevailed in the French service, and had been attended with the best effects in recruiting the army. In fact, groups of young fellows entered this service for 8 or 10 years, as it were on a party of pleasure, who would never have thought of in listing for life; and in many of the provinces no young man could obtain a wife who had not previously been 8 or 9 years in the army. The reason why he had voted on the former occasion for the repeal of this bill, was in order to remove it out of the way of the great measure proposed by the rt. hon. gent. and, with all due deference to the great military authorities who supported this bill, and opposed the measure of the rt. hon. gent. because it was new and untried, he begged to observe, that so also was the state of the country new and unparalleled, and one that called for new and extraordinary measures; the system of Europe was such as made it indispensible for the country to depart from old and established usages, and to become, for its own, security, a great military nation. Unless the inducements proposed by the new plan were held out to the lower orders of the people of England, how were a sufficient number of men, cradled in liberty, and reared from infancy in a spirit of independence, to be induced to enter for general service?
5
6
Lord Castlereagh
said, he was fully aware, that no task could be more ungracious to undertake, than that of endeavouring to dissuade parliament from the adoption of a plan which the rt. hon. gent. as one of his majesty's ministers, at a crisis so arduous, had taken so much pains to convince himself, and to convince the house, was the most eligible for their adoption; but the deep and strong sense he felt, of the superior efficacy of the bill now proposed to be repealed, to all the objects proposed by the rt. hon. gent. for an effective increase of the public force, was such, that he could not, without an absolute dereliction of his public duty, omit to impress upon the house the insurmountable objections he had to the rt. hon. gent's. plan, and the motives which induced him to give a decided preference to the bill now proposed to be repealed, in order that his majesty's ministers should not have inadvertency to plead; and that upon their own shoulders might rest the responsibility of throwing out of their hands, wantonly and unnecessarily, a plan of military arrangement, which had been found so productive, for the sake of adopting a new project which had never been tried, and in support of which the rt. hon. gent. had scarcely deigned to give to the house a single reason, in answer to all the objections which had been opposed to it. Not even the brilliant and eloquent speech of a rt. hon. friend of his (Mr. Canning), on a former night, could wring from the rt. hon. gent. a single answer to any of his able and irresistible arguments. In the arguments he was about to offer, he should studiously avoid any application to the military part of the bill, and direct his observations merely to the civil part of it, which was of sufficient magnitude for the present discussion, and which seemed to be the branch most obnoxious to the rt. hon. gent.
7
8
9
levy-en-masse
10
11
Mr. Denis Browny
objected to the plan proposed by the rt. hon. secretary, as calculated to change the whole military system of the country. He would not consent to the repeal of the Additional Force bill, because he looked upon it as productive, and had reason to know it had proved efficient. He could not consent to give up such a mea-
12
Lord Henry Petty
thought it sufficient, in answer to what had been said by the hon. gent. below him, to observe, that he had spoken of Ireland, whereas the present bill went only to the repeal of the act in England. With regard to the question now before the house, with whatever surprise and regret he heard this oppressive measure of the Additional Force act defended, his concern was not unmixed with satisfaction, that now the noble lord had consented to try the matter on its own merits. When this measure was at first proposed, it was brought forward in opposition to the plans of the former administration, and it was of the effects which it had produced that we were now called upon to judge. In trying the merits of the act, which he acknowledged the noble lord, as fir as he went, stated pretty fairly, he would set aside every thing that was objectionable in the constitution of the act itself, and consider it with a view to the purpose which it was designed to answer, the success of which he would admit, for the present, would entitle it to the adoption of the house. The repeal of the act was founded on its complete failure in all its objects. The noble lord would observe that its first object was to procure a large and fixed supply for the regular army, a supply proportioned to the dificiencies in the army of reserve and the militia. Now, he would beg the indulgence of the house while he stated what the act ought to have obtained, what it did obtain, and what were the penalties on the counties. The deficiencies in the militia were 16,939 men, and in the army of reserve 8,975 men. Altogether, then, the bill before the 1st of Oct. 1805, ought to have produced 25,914 men. The parishes did produce somewhat above 4000 men, and incurred penalties to the amount of 450,605l. Now, here he in-
13
14
15
16
Mr. Babington
said, that it was unquestionable that the provisions of the act had for their object to raise men, instead of which the act had only operated to raise money. In the county of Leicester, he knew that those 200 men that were stated by the returns on the table as having been raised by parish officers, were in fact only handed over by the recruiting serjeants of other corps, as men that being under size, could only be admitted in this description of force. Five guineas a man was given to a recruiting officer for getting persons of that description, and the act was never in that county considered to be any thing but an act to raise money in the parishes. The apportionment that was made of the men to be raised in the respective parishes, was not on the proportion of their population, but of their wealth and their ability to contribute. He therefore thought the act had completely failed in its proposed objects, and ought to be repealed.
Col. Bagwell
was astonished to hear an hon. gent. who spoke early in the debate assert, that inflammatory language had been made use of by the gentlemen who opposed the bill. Such an assertion, he conceived, never could be established to the satisfaction of the house, and therefore should not have been made. He was of opinion, that if ever there was a cause which mere than another called forth the patriotic feelings of the country, it was the present. When the rt. hon. gent. who brought in the bill now under debate, and his colleagues, first came into office, the public were elated with the hope, that some measure, beneficial to the country, would be undertaken; but, instead of having these hopes realized, they were astonished to find that nothing which was likely to be so, was proposed; and, in short, that the new administration had not only not increased the number of the army, but that they had not endeavoured to increase the spirits of it. He then referred to the late gallant achievement of the British force, at the Cape of Good Hope, and said, that the rt, hon. secre-
17
Mr. Lee
began by stating, that although by the returns on the table, it appeared that in the county he had the honour to represent (the county of Waterford) the parish officers had raised above 100 men, yet he could say, from his own certain knowledge, that there were not two men raised in the county in that manner. The number was entirely made up of men under the size of 5 feet 4 inches, who had been handed over to the parish officers by the serjeants who had been recruiting other descriptions of service. In England there were no less than 14 counties, in which not a man had been raised by parish officers; and in the large county of York, which ought to have produced 5,674, no more than 407 had been raised altogether within the last 18 months. He thought it was a great objection to the bill that, in the course of 18 months, it could not be understood by those whose duty it was to execute it. On the score of economy, it was most ridiculous to lay it down, that only 10 guineas should be given as bounty to a person enlisting for general service at once, but that 12 should be given to those who enlisted for this force, and 10 more if they should go from that to the regular army. It was only cheating ourselves, and picking our own pockets, to say that we were ready to give the same man 12 guineas in the morning and 10 more in the evening, or to put 12 guineas in one of his hands, and ten in the other, but to say, at the same time, that upon the ground of economy, we could not think of giving such a bounty as 22 guineas at one time. It would be confessed by every body, that the efficiency of the bill was rather in the breach than in the observance: it was by the infraction of the law that the object and policy of it was obtained. This was a system so contrary to all ideas of morality and good government, that were there
18
Sir E. Hartopp,
took the opportunity of paying a compliment to the county be had the honour to represent, that it had raised the whole of its quota. They forbore at first because they did not understand the bill, but they had afterwards used every means their power to carry the act into execution, and the county stood pre-eminently, if not solely on the ground of having obeyed and executed with alacrity the act of the legislature.
Mr. Perceval
said, he considered the present system to be better than any which had been proposed to be substituted for it. If the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had thought this act so bad in itself, or so unconnected with other parts of the military system, he certainly need not have delayed so long in moving the repeal. The rt.hon gent. however, by his conduct in that respect, sheaved that he considered it necessary to state some other system to the house, before he called upon them to repeal that act. He could not therefore complain, if the gentlemen on that side of the House should think it necessary to examine a little what kind of a substitute was to be presented to them. The rt. hon. gent. had appeared to agree with the author of the act, that 3,00,000 men was about the number to which the army of the country should be raised. The army actually existing, amounted to 267,000, which in point of number, was not much inferior to what ho himself thought necessary. As to every thin else which constituted the excellence of an army, high spirit, good discipline and so forth, the rt. hon. gent. seemed to confess, that nothing was wanting in the British army
19
primâ facie
20
21
22
Mr. Secretary Fox
said he rose on this oc-
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24
25
26
27
Mr. Keck
referred to the number of men which had been raised by the bill in Leicestershire, and argued from hence against its repeal.
Mr. Fuller
supported the motion. He was persuaded that the great man with whom it originated (Mr. Pitt), would, if he were now alive, be among the most forward to call for the repeal of this measure. And he would recommend the present chancellor of the exchequer, whom he saw as a phœnix arising from the ashes of that great man, to abandon or to follow as he did, any measure which justice prescribed, without any studious regard to popularity. Let not that noble lord follow popularity, but let him act rightly, and popularity would follow him. He told the rt. hon. framer of this bill, when he first brought it in, that it would not an-
28
Mr. Canning
professed his disinclination to obtrude himself for any length of time on the attention of the house, being already too sensible of the indulgence shewn him by the house. He condemned the mode adopted by the rt. hon. secretary of state, of marking out the scope and circuit of the debate, from which no member was to depart. Did ministers conceive that their statements were to go for argument and decision? Had the question before the house been the repeal of the Income Tax, would not gentlemen have a right to examine what was to be substituted in its place? The rt. hon. gent had stated that he had many measures to propose, yet he showed uncommon earnestness to do away this single measure of his predecessor. The chancellor of the exchequer in his financial measures had established the plans of his predecessor, and had proposed the means of continuing them. The rt. hon. secretary (Mr. Fox) hid placed the question on such narrow grounds, the experience only of a few months, that he could scarcely consider his view of the subject as originating with himself. The modes of comparison taken were unfair. He could produce from the documents, months when the army recruiting was high and the operation of the act low, and vice versa; and others again when both were high. The noble lord had said, that the debate was only on the act for England. Did he mean to say, that it was not to be debated generally? Did he mean that the house were to begin again ab initio, upon the acts that respected Scotland and Ireland? Would he not think that such a mode would be idle, and even embarrassing? But the noble lord had stated the desertions of the whole force against the single produce of England. Had he calculated the difference, he would have found it materially to affect his sentiments. Into the other statements he should not enter, ab uno disce omnes. The militia had not been extended, because it was not found that it could support itself to the full extent. But would the house part with an act which extended the advantages of the militia, and recruited, at the same time, the regular force, without the inconveniencies of a standing army? Gentlemen might wish the repeal from various reasons. It was the only measure of his deceased rt. hon. friend that they could get rid of. Let them gratify their hatred of their predecessor as they pleased; but let them not deprive the country of the operation of
29
Lord H. Petty
explained, that he had stated the number of men raised in England, Scotland, and Ireland. He hoped, that when the rt. hon gent. assumed credit to himself for his accuracy, he would not be forward to accuse others of inaccuracy.
The Lord Advocate of Scotland (Mr. H. Erskine)
rose to make a few remarks upon the operation of the act in that part of the united kingdom. Every body who knew any thing about Scotland, must know that the act was in that country nothing more than a tax of 20l. upon the parishes, for scarcely a man could be raised by it. In the county of Edinburgh, a place that one would have thought very likely for procuring men, where there were a number of the idle and poor, not a single man could be got. The people of Scotland were a very sagacious people; they kept the bounds the law prescribed them, and when they could not get the men, they paid the money. He had attended the county meeting of Edinburgh, when nothing could be done to facilitate the raising of men. Who were the parish officers? The school-master and the sexton: but the sexton's efforts to raise the men were found unavailing. Yet in the county of Ayr they did contrive to get men How? by sending to manufacturing towns and employing crimps, or by giving too much money. It was a most extraordinary way of raising men under a particular act, by violating the act itself. He hoped the house would in such cases impute their conduct to their loyalty and zeal, rather than to any thing else. He did not feel himself quite competent to judge of a measure which had been introduced into the house before he had the honour of sitting there; but from all he had heard, he had no difficulty in voting for the repeal of the act. It was useless. It was oppressive and unjust in its operation. It was destructive to the mode of recruiting for the regular army. It could only live by the breach of it. No set of men in the country were more entitled to consideration than the volunteers of Scotland, They were animated by the truest patriotism and valour. If they could he led to any misconception of the plan proposed, it must be from the accounts in the newspapers sent down to them of the speeches of to hon gentlemen
30
Mr. Hawthorne
wished to trespass upon the indulgence of the house for a short time. The statements which he had made in the course of a former debate had been arraigned as partial, by a noble lord on the opposite bench. He wished he bad thought proper to point out in what respect they were inaccurate. He had the documents in his hand to which he had referred on a former evening, and with the permission of the house, he would again apply to them (loud cry of question, question). He perceived the house was not inclined to hear him, and he would therefore sit down.
Mr. Bragge Bathurst
declared that it was with reluctance he obtruded himself upon the house, but the speech of the rt. hon. gent. had made it necessary for him to say a few words. He supported the statement of the chancellor of the exchequer, respecting the amount of desertions, and contended, in opposition to the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Canning), that the average had been fairly taken. His principal object, however, in rising, was to justify himself and his friends for having formerly consented to continue the act, and now voting for its repeal. It was within his knowledge that the illustrious character who first proposed the act which it was the object of the bill before the house to repeal, never intended that it should operate as a measure of finance. He also knew that it was his intention to make many very material alterations in it. The act as it appeared at present, defective and inefficient as it was, could, not he said to be the same with that brought forward by the illustrious person who first, suggested it. He saw the house was impatient for the question, and he would not take up more of its time than was sufficient for declaring, that he voted for the repeal of the act, upon a full conviction that it had not answered the purpose originally intended.—The question being loudly called for, the gallery was cleared for a division, but none took place. The house afterwards went into a committee pro forma, after which it re-
31
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, May 7.
[MINUTES.]
In the committee of privileges new resolutions were passed respecting claims to the Roos peerage, in order to shew the derivation of the claimants, through the Manners family, from the family of Roos, and also to save the claim of the Duke of Rutland to any barony of that name. The co-heirs in whom the barony is declared to be in abeyance were placed in the resolutions in the following order, sir T. W. Hunloke, the Earl of Essex, and lady Henry Fitzgerald—Strangers were for some time excluded, during which, we understand, a Mr. Broadhurst, clerk to Mr. Baron Graham, attended at the bar, in pursuance of the order of the house, to answer to the charge of insulting Mr. Dyke, one of the door-keepers of the house of lords, while on duty in the high court of parliament in Westminster-hall. He was ordered to be reprimanded, and was accordingly reprimanded by the lord chancellor and discharged, paying his fees—Upon our re-admission we found the earl of Romney addressing the house respecting a petition he had presented from the respondents in an appeal from the court of chancery, wherein Mrs. Fitzherbert is the appellant, relative to the guardianship of Miss Seymour, daughter of lord Hugh Seymour, now under the protection of that lady, praying that an early day might be appointed for hearing the appeal. After a few words from lord Grantley, the petition was read.—The lord chancellor thought that, from the state of the business before the house, it was impossible to make any order respecting the case then. He suggested as the only mode they could adopt, that the petition should lie on the table, and a day be appointed for its consideration.—Lord Eldon concurred in this suggestion, and moved that the petition should be taken into consideration on Monday fortnight. This motion, after a few words from the earl of Romney, was agreed to.
[SLAVE IMPORTATION BILL.]
The Duke of Clarence presented a petition from certain merchants and ship-owners of the port of London, against the Slave Importation bill, and moved that the petitioners should.
32
Lord Grenville
rose to move the 2d reading of the bill. Nothing he had heard, he said, had tended to convince him that the principle of the bill was erroneous or impolitic; on the contrary, he still believed it to be a measure which was called for by every dictate of sound policy. The islands in the West-Indies were now nearly all of them in the possession of this country, or of our enemies; and, if it was a clear and obvious policy that We should not give advantages to our enemies, it was surely equally clear that we should not supply their colonies with slaves, thereby affording them additional means of cultivation, contributing to increase the produce of their islands, and thus enabling them to meet us in the market upon equal terms of competition, or perhaps to undersell us. This appeared to him so obvious, that he thought it unnecessary to argue it. The first object of the bill, therefore, was to prevent British subjects from supplying foreign colonies with slaves. The same principle was also applicable to the supply of colonies captured from the enemy, and only held until peace. In the islands captured last war, and which were given up at the peace, British capital was employed to so great an extent, that the exports from those islands equalled the exports from Jamaica. All this went to benefit and enrich the enemy, and to encrease their means of rivality. Another object of the bill, therefore, was to enforce the order of council, issued to restrain this species of trade, enacting, at the same time, additional regula-
33
The Duke of Clarence
said, he would not divide the house upon the subject, but content himself with briefly stating his objections to the bill. If we were enabled to prevent any supply of slaves from being carried to the enemy's colonies, then he would agree to the policy of preventing British subjects from supplying them; this was not the case: the colonies of the enemy would be supplied with slaves from other sources; and therefore he saw no reason why the profits arising from this trade should be taken out of the hands of British subjects. With respect to the investiture of British capital, in colonies taken from the enemy, he thought that, in the event of a war ensuing after their being given up, and an attack being made upon them, the inhabitants, having experienced the advantages resulting from the employment of British capital, would be the less ready to defend them. The bill, he contended, would, in its operation, greatly injure Jamaica and the Bahama islands; the former island was several hundred leagues to leeward of all our colonies, and, unless the trade with slaves to the Spanish Main was allowed, it would not be worth the while of any trader in slaves to come to Jamaica, as in case, as it probably might happen, he could not find a market for them there, he Would be subjected to enormous expense and loss. He therefore objected to the bill, and should take other opportunities of stating his objections.
The Earl of Westmoreland
approved of some parts of the bill, and therefore should not object to the second reading. To other provisions of the bill, however, he should strongly object in another stage of it, as their operation would shut out a mart for Bri-
34
The Earl of Moira
defended the bill, which he considered as founded in sound policy. If as had been stated by the counsel who had been heard, slaves were to be considered as merchandize, they must be considered as the raw material. It had always been considered as highly impolitic to export to foreign states any raw material from this country, which was afterwards to be worked up into manufactured articles. Upon this Principle, therefore, it was surely extremely impolitic to allow slaves, which were the raw material with respect to the produce of our colonies, to be exported by British subjects to the colonies of the enemy, thereby giving them the means of using this raw material to increase their produce, and enabling them to rival us in the market.—The bill was then read a second time.
Lord Hawkesbury
gave notice, that he should propose several amendments in the committee, and that if the bill came out of the committee in its present state, he should think it his duty to oppose it on a subsequent stage.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, May 7.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Alderman Combe
presented a bill from the coach-makers of London against the raw hide and skin cutting and flaying bill.—A person from the Tax Office presented an account of the amount of all Exemptions to Foreigners on sums in the Public Funds, upon the Property Tax act. Ordered, on the motion of Mr. Magens, after a short conversation between Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry, and Mr. Magens, that there be laid before the house an account of the quantities and value, real and official, of all foreign Linens imported into Great Britain from the 1st of Jan. 1790, to the 1st of Jan. 1806. Also of the quantity exported during the same period, together with the rate and amount of duties and drawbacks thereon, distinguishing the several sorts, and each year.—The Secretary at War, for the purpose of throwing light on a part of a comparison which had been made in some late debates, moved that there be laid before the house, a return of the number of recruits raised under the Additional Force act that had volunteered from limited to unlimited service from Oct. 1804, to April, 1806. Ordered.
[IRISH BUDGET.] Sir John Newport
35
moved, that the house should resolve itself into a committee of Ways and Means, and that the several Accounts presented, relative to the Revenue of Ireland, should be referred to the said Committee. The house having resolved itself into the said committee, the hon. baronet said, that if in attempting to lay before the committee the statement of the Revenue of Ireland, he was possessed of the abilities and eloquence of his noble friend near him (lord H. Petty), he should not feel at all embarrassed at the task he had to perform, because he should, in that case, feel a confidence in his own powers, and by a luminous and perspicuous arrangement of the subject he had to state, arrest and engage the attention of the committee; but as he was not possessed of those powers, he could only promise to lay before the committee, in simple and unadorned language, the Supplies and Ways and Means for the service of Ireland for the present year. Although in some respect he could not congratulate the committee on the state of Ireland, yet he was bound to attribute the deficiency which existed in the revenue of that country to the want of arrangement which prevailed in the collection of its revenues. It must be the wish, as it certainly was the duty, of the government of Ireland, to adopt as soon as possible the same excellent mode and plan for the collection of the revenues that existed in this country. He felt, however, greet satisfaction in stating, that in spite of many obstructions which the trade of Ireland had experienced, and still experienced, that country displayed powers of energy and resource which, under regular and proper management, must render it a source of strength, instead of tending, as he was afraid it did in some instances, to the weakness of the empire. The exports of Ireland amounted last year to above 5,200,000l. officil value, that is above 30,000l. more than the preceding year. The exports of linen had also increased last year. It was 5,500,000 yards and the Import of Flaxseed 1677 hogsheads. In fact, the Exports of Ireland were greater last year than any year since 1792. Another proof of the increased state of the Exports of Ireland might be drawn from the state of the course of exchange, which without any extraneous assistance, had been lower, and more fixed, for the last four months than it had been for several years. But the terms of the Loan lately contracted in Ireland afforded a still stronger proof of the growing prosperity of that country, and of the increased confidence of the people in the Go-
36
37
38
39
40
41
Mr. Foster
said it might naturally be expected that he should make some observations on a subject with which he was lately so much connected, and even alluded to in the speech of the rt. hon. baronet. He expressed great satisfaction in hearing that the Finances and Trade of Ireland were now in the flourishing situation represented; but he felt regret, at the same time, in having to state, that till within these four years the exports had produced more, and therefore left the balance against us. If however, it was true, that since the year 1792 the exports were never greater than in the last year, and that the imports were also increasing, they would be likely soon to bring back the balance in our favour. The rt. hon. baronet said, that his intentions were to raise the whole quota of Ireland, for the present year by Loan, without any War Tax, or means of raising any considerable portion of the Supply within the year. If so, there was an alarming prospect of the growing debt, which he feared the country would be unable to support. In the year 1797 the Debt of Ireland Was 7,000,000l. and, proceeding in the same ratio of increase, in the year 1807 it would be 64,000,000l.; the disparity would be very striking, if that increase were compared with what took place in the Debt of England since the Union. When that event occurred the debt of Ireland was only 32 millions, and this year it was nearly double. The Debt of G. Britain was 460 millions, and was now no more than 548 millions, which the house must perceive not to be by any means in the proportion of seven and a half to one, which was the quota settled for the contribution of Ireland. It was therefore the interest of G. Britain, as well as Ireland, to take the best means of
42
43
44
Mr. Corry
said, the rt. hon. gent. seemed to have two distinct objects in his speech; first, to criticise on the proposals of the rt. hon. baronet; and secondly, to give himself a sort of posthumous Budget of what he meant to propose, had he remained in office. If he thought there should be an assimilation of the currency of both countries, why did he not bring it forward while he remained in an official situation? Why had he not done the same with regard to the equalization of interest? The fact was, that he knew it to be impossible, though perhaps he might have made some experiment of the kind, if he had not been checked and controuled by the luminous genius of that great man (Mr. Pitt) whose loss he, in common with the majority of the country, must for ever deplore. It was very desirable that the house should not be led into any delusion on these subjects. It was not the preferable security, but the greater interest to be obtained in Ireland, which conveyed to it a considerable
45
Mr. Foster
replied, that he did not, when in office, propose to equalise the coin or the interest of money, because the circumstances of the moment rendered it impracticable, there being very little gold or silver in the country.
Mr. Parnell
said that both the rt. hon. gent. who had spoken last having introduced the question of the propriety of providing so great a proportion of the supplies of the year by loan, he would take this opportunity of stating his decided objections to that system. He did not by any means intend to complain of the plan which had been proposed for this year by the rt. hon. bart. because he considered his appointment to office at so recent a period did not afford him an opportunity to depart from this system, even if he felt similar objections to it, as he did, or that it would be prudent in him to depart hastily from a system that had so long been acted upon. He said the objections he entertain-
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47
48
Mr. Rose
said, that the failures in Ireland had been considerable, and he heard with pleasure of the means embraced for preventing their recurrence. The policy of raising the supplies for the public service within the year for which they were applicable, he thought most salutary and sound, but the right hon. baronet had not proposed to raise more than 6 or 700,000l. more than the interest of the debt, and therefore the civil list of Ireland, as well as the navy and army, remained unprovided for. The equalization of the currency between this country and Ireland was a very desirable measure, and one which was not now first agitated; but it had been found that many preliminary steps were necessary to its accomplishment.
Mr. Lee
thought, that, considering the great debt, and the extent of the taxation, the specie of Ireland was not sufficient for all the purposes of that country. There was no solid ground for taking off the restriction on the Bank of Ireland so long as it continued in England. If, whilst the exchange continued at 11 against Ireland, the restriction were to be removed, there would not, in a short time, be a guinea left in that country; and, as long as it continued, he thought the small paper currency a necessary
succedaneum
49
Sir J. Newport
said, that heavy taxes could not be imposed upon Ireland at the time a supply was necessary, consistently with any wise or efficient principle. This had been strictly exemplified in the last additional tax upon wine, which had operated so as to occasion a defalcation in the last year of 74,000l. from a revenue of about 320,000l. which it had yielded the year before. This would strongly prove how delicate and careful the legislature ought to be not to push the taxation to an extent which would induce the consumer to relinquish the use of the article entirely. Not only the reduced consumption of wine, but the increased number of absentees from Ireland, were attributed to excess of taxation. At present, he was happy to state, that it was not necessary to resort to any great increase of imposts on that country, as at the end of the last year there remained 800,000l. due to Ireland, not drawn over from England, and which would more than cover the outstanding treasury bills; and although he meant now to give the house a power of calling for 500,000l. he had reason to believe that not more than half would be wanted.
Mr. Grattan
could not entertain the idea of making Ireland find all her resources in the year for which they were to be applied. Two years ago this principle had been extended to the infliction of an additional 120,000l. a-year; and if, every second year, the minister were to come to Parliament with a new system of taxation, it would alarm the people of Ireland, and the measures would, in all probability, fail of their object. However the prosperity of the country might have increased, its wealth was not such as to encourage new taxes.—The increased wealth arose in part from the issue of paper; but every miller was a banker, and he feared it was a false capital: the aggregate opulence of the country was, however, considerably increasing.—The rt. hon. bart. was certainly right not to precipitate Ireland into the system suggested; but it was a discussion not called for now, and he (Mr. G.) considered it wrong to introduce any question on Irish affairs extraneous to that before the house; he would, therefore, at once give his assent to the motion.
Mr. Foster
strongly objected to the proposed tax upon iron imported into Ireland, as going directly to contravene a principle of the union, by imposing a tax upon a raw material of Irish manufacture, without the possibility of any countervailing, duty, either
50
[PROPERTY DUTY BILL.] Lord H. Petty
moved the order of the day for resolving into a committee for the further consideration of the Property Duty bill.
Sir Henry Mildmay
hoped the noble lord would not press the house at so late an hour to go into a committee upon a bill that was likely to excite so much discussion, especially as several gentlemen who earnestly wished to be present at that discussion, had left the house under a confident persuasion that the further proceedings on the bill would be deferred to another day.
Lord H. Petty
said it had been understood on all sides of the house, that this was the day finally determined on for going into a committee on the bill. Several gentlemen had asked him, in the course of the evening, if he really meant to proceed with the bill that evening, and his answer was, that he certainly did, if possible. However, if the hon, baronet, or any other gentleman, had any objection to the principle of the bill, he would have no objection to postpone it, otherwise he should certainly wish to proceed now.
Sir H. Mildmay
could not pretend to say what were the particular objections of his friends who had gone away. He could only state their earnest wish to be present, and that they had gone away under the persuasion he had before stated.—Upon the general voice of "proceed now," the order of the day was read; when
Mr. William Smith
said, that notwithstanding the reluctance he had already expressed to give any opposition to the measures proposed, or the taxes brought forward by his majesty's present ministers, because he felt the peculiar difficulties in which they were placed, yet he had such forcible objections to this bill, that he felt it an indispensible duty to express them. He was disposed to give his noble friend, the chancellor of the exchequer, every degree of
51
52
Sir R. Buxton
thought the tax unjust. On a former night it had been said, that it should operate as a land tax, under which no exemptions were to be allowed. The policy of this principle had been formerly confuted, having been acted upon and relinquished. The hon. baronet particularly called the attention of the house to the situation of country gentlemen of about 1000l. a year, who would feel the tax beyond all others, and would be driven by its pressure from their country seats into towns, where they could not be useful in the eminent way which the antiquity of their families, and their capacity as magistrates, rendered them in their parishes; where, by their presence and long residence, they gave to the law a weight which it would not otherwise carry. No man at any time more warmly supported the war, or saw more clearly the necessity of vigorous prosecution now, than the hon. baronet; he wished to give all the support in his power to the ministers, and said thus much now only with a view of intimating, that he had some objections to offer to the tax in a future stage.
Sir H. Mildmay
objected to the partial operation of the bill on the landed property of the country: he did not mean to say that the landed interest were not able to support the tax, and much more that they would not pay it if the wisdom of parliament should deem it right to inflict it; but it was extremely desirable that property should be equally assessed. The small landed proprietors with large families would feel the act with particular severity, as there were no abatements allowed for children. The great variety of expenses incidental to the support and education of large families, would, he hoped, point these proprietors out to the house as fit
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Mr. Perceval
deprecated all delay, and earnestly recommended to the house to go into the committee, which was the most proper stage in which to discuss the objections now made to the several parts of the bill by different gentlemen. He professed himself a warm friend and supporter of the bill and its principle, because he was convinced that the taxes it was designed to raise, would fall more equally, fairly, and justly, uponevery class of the community, than any other mode of taxation that could possibly be devised; and firmly persuaded he was, that if it were practicable to raise a similar sum by taxes upon articles of consumption, upon the necessaries of life, even the poor man of small income, with a large family, would pay a much larger proportion of the tax in that way, than he could possibly be called on to do, under this bill. The hon. gent. who first objected to parts of this bill, (Mr. Smith), had admitted the necessity in which his majesty's ministers were placed of raising large sums to meet the arduous exigencies of the country at the present crisis. But though he had favoured the house with a criticism upon the title of the bill, and christened it an Income Tax, and not a Property tax, if he would examine its tendency, he would find it to be what it professed, a tax upon profits arising from property, and also from trades and professions. But much as he approved of the bill, and convinced as he was that it would be vain to think of raising a similar sum by any tax he could impose upon articles of consumption; he would earnestly recommend it to the noble lord, seriously to consider the objections stated that night by the hon. members near him, as well as the other weighty objections which might be offered on the part of other descriptions of persons, and see how far it would be practicable to modify particular parts of the bill, so as to render its operation as little oppressive and obnoxious as possible to any particular class of the community, that the bill might not incur any degree of odium that might risk the necessity of its repeal. With respect to the case of chil-
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Mr. Wilberforce
said, he heard with very great pleasure the sentiments just expressed by his hon. and learned friend, in which he perfectly coincided. He thought there were several descriptions of persons who certainly ought to be exempted from the operation of this tax, particularly persons with large families having even incomes so high as 200l a year. He compared the situation of the country, under the operation of such a tax as this, and the exigencies which called for it, to that of a ship, whose crew, pressed by scarcity, were put upon short allowance; where every man was called upon to bear his share of privation, all would cheerfully submit to the hardship, so long as it was the universal and impartial lot; but if one part of the crew were expected to submit cheerfully to hunger, while another description were allowed to indulge in every luxury, resignation and patient submission could not long last. Thus it would be with those of large families and large incomes, who if they were called on to surrender ten percent. thereout, must absolutely be reduced to want the common necessaries of life. The classes of persons he would wish to exempt, besides those to whom he had just alluded, were widows, poor clergymen, and officers of small pay in the army, unless it was intended to increase the pay of the latter, as in the case of the navy had been lately adopted. He felt the force of his hon. and learned friend's argument, and applauded the noble lord for the manly manner in which he had come forward to raise so considerable a portion of the supplies for the war within the year and if any considerable deficit from the general produce of the tax, should arise through the exemptions he proposed, it might be made good by encreasing the impost upon higher incomes; and to such a modification he for one, should most chearfully submit.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
thought that to admit of no exemptions was a bad principle of taxation; and that it was neither politic nor humane to allow the estimated amount of
55
Lord H. Petty
would not say much at so late an hour. The necessity of raising a large sum within the year, had been admitted, and, it had also been admitted, that this was the best tax for such a purpose, being as had been stated, superior to the original income tax. To this resource, therefore, we must look for the means of that energy which circumstances demanded. There might be some cases of apparent hardship: but equality could, in such a case, be only taken in the gross, and along with it, we must consider the efficacy of the bill. As to equality, perhaps, theoretically, a tax on capital would be the fairest, or one combining capital and income, according to various descriptions of property; but the prodigious trouble, and the agency requisite for such a scheme, would hardly justify him in venturing to give up the. plan that had been already established. The noble lord then expressed his strong disinclination to admit any further exemptions, since 350,000l. were already lost by the concessions made. He should listen attentively to suggestions, but nothing less than the seeming general wish of the house should incline him to increase exemptions, which were mostly of greater loss to government than benefit to the individuals. He objected to the idea of taking a greater percentage from the rich than from the poor, since its tendency was to alter the order of society. The exemptions in favor of those who had children, were in reality a tax upon those who had none. It was his wish to avoid unnecessary pressure, but not to agree to exemptions which would greatly reduce the efficacy of the tax.—Mr. Wilberforce, Mr. Rose, and lord H. Petty said a few words in explanation, after which the bill went through a Committee pro forma. Progress was reported, and it was ordered that the committee should sit again on Monday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, May 8.
[Minutes.]
The house met at ten o'clock. Lord Beauchamp (late Mr. Lygon) was introduced in the usual form, and his patent of creation having been read, took the oaths and his seat.—Their lordships proceeded as
56
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 8.
[Minutes.]
A message from the lords announced that they would proceed further on the trial of lord Melville to morrow.— The Secretary at War brought up a return of the number of recruits under the Additional Force act, from limited to unlimited service, from 1804 to 1806. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Huskisson, after a few introductory observations respecting the claims of Messrs Chalmers for compensation on account of the losses sustained upon certain cargoes of Swedish herrings imported by them, in the year 1801, said that the board of treasury had, in 1804, considered the subject very minutely; and although they admitted it certainly was a case of hardship, yet they were of opinion that it was not one of those which they were, in justice, bound to compensate. He concluded by moving, that there be laid before the house a copy of the minutes of the proceedings of the board of treasury on the 10th of August 1804, respecting the claims of Messrs Chalmers and Cowie. Ordered.
[Irish Budget.] Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of the committee of Ways and Means, upon the propositions moved yesterday by sir John Newport.—The resolution being read respecting the duty on Sugar,
Mr. Rose
said, that the rt. hon. baronet had proposed a temporary duty in order to provide for the interest of a permanent loan, which was not only a novel, but, in his opinion, unwise mode of proceeding. But if he understood the meaning of the rt. hon. baronet correctly, he seemed to think that it was not necessary to raise any taxes for the payment of interest as long as there was any surplus revenue. The surplus revenue of Ireland, over and above the joint contribution, was only about 700,000l. applicable to the payment of the whole of her separate charge, and the rt. hon. baronet seemed to think that as long as any of this surplus remained, it was not necessary to impose any new tax. If the rt. hon. baronet did not
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Sir J. Newport
said, that he did last night, in the most distinct manner, protest against any such interpretation being put upon what he had said as that now attempted by the rt. hon. gent. He had never stated that he would not propose any taxes while there remained any surplus revenue; but that as there were measures in contemplation that, he hoped, would very materially improve the revenue, and as he had been but a very short time in office, and had not an opportunity of fully considering the state of the country, he wished to propose taxes that should press as lightly upon the people as possible. With respect to raising the supplies within the year, why did not the rt. hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Foster) do it when he was in office? That rt. hon. gent. had had ample opportunity of knowing the state of the country before he came into office, whereas it was impossible for him (sir J. Newport) to obtain the necessary information, not being able to visit the country during the short time he had been in office. It was admitted that this duty ought to be laid on in consequence of the duty imposed in this country, but it was said that it would not be productive; he certainly did look to it for produce; but gentlemen ought not to press that as an argument against him, when they admitted that he was bound to propose this duty, a similar one having been laid on in this country. He might, he was sure, if he had thought proper, have estimated the other taxes higher than he had done; but he wished to be within bounds, But, surely, it would not be contended that if all the taxes together produced the sum wanted, that each particular one must produce the sum at which it was estimated; and he had not the smallest doubt
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Mr. Foster
said, he had been asked why he had not, when he was in office, attempted to raise as much of the supplies as possible within the year: the answer was, he had done it, he had proposed taxes to the amount of 1,450,000l. a year. He did not blame the Budget of the rt. hon. baronet, because he had not been long enough in office to obtain full knowledge of the state of Ireland; but there was one observation which he wished to make: the loan for Ireland, made this year in England, was two millions; the annual amount of the debt of Ireland, due in England, was two millions; so that the whole of the loan would remain here to pay the interest of the debt. No country could go on long at this rate; and the debt of Ireland, it would be found, unless proper measures were taken, must be ultimately consolidated with that of this country, as the debt of the former was increasing in a much greater proportion than that of the latter. The proportion ought to be as one to seven; whereas, by the two loans of this year, it was four and a half to eighteen. Such a circumstance required the attention of this country, which must ultimately feel the weight of those impolitic measures.
Sir J. Newport
begged leave to state a few facts in answer to what had fallen from the right hon. gent. respecting his having raised so much of the supplies within the year. In the last year the joint charge of the two countries was 42 millions, and in the present year it was 43 millions: last year, when the rt. hon. gent. was chancellor of the exchequer, there were four millions British borrowed; this year there were two millions British, and two millions Irish, borrowed. After this short statement, he would ask, whether he had not done as much towards raising the supplies within the year as the rt. hon. gent? But the rt hon. gent, had not stated that, when
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Mr. Corry
said, he trusted the house would indulge him with a few observations upon what had fallen from the rt. hon. gent. opposite to him. The tendency of the observations of the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Foster)
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Mr. Rose
admitted that the colony compact was done away by the union, but the spirit of it still existed, for it could not be contended that Ireland should have a preference over Great Britain in her own colonies.
Lord De Bloquiere
complimented Mr. Foster for the exertions he had made when he was in office, and said he would have.
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Mr. Foster
said, he was happy to find that the rt. hon. baronet meant to adopt the regulations he had proposed;as he was sure they would prove beneficial.
Sir J. Newport
protested against the produce of the present year being taken as the criterion of what it would have been under the regulations of Mr. Foster, for though he meant to adopt the greatest part of them, he also intended to superadd many and important new ones.
Mr. Lee
referred to some documents in his hand, which would, he said, shew, that there was a considerable defalcation last year in the produce both of the excise and customs, though the stamps produced more than they did before. He contended, therefore, that instead of an increase of 1,200,000l. which Mr Foster took to himself the merit of having made in the revenue, compared with some former years, it would not exceed 500,000l.
Mr. Foster
said, there prevailed in Ireland a strong disposition to resist the collection of the revenue; he wished for the concurrence of all the gentlemen best acquainted with the subject, in devising measures proper to induce the people to submit to the necessary means of rendering them productive.
Mr. Alexander
said, that the chancellor of the exchequer for Ireland had very great difficulties to contend against, and he thought the two rt. hon. gentlemen who lately held that office (Mr. Corry and Mr. Foster) entitled to great credit for their exertions: the former, he knew, had prepared a very strong and extensive plan for increasing the revenue of Ireland. The hon. member concluded with paying several compliments to the rt. hon. baronet who at present filled. the office of chancellor of the exchequer of Ireland.— The resolution was then agreed to. The resolutions respecting the Distilleries being read,
Mr. Foster
said, he did not mean to oppose this resolution, but he merely meant to state his reason for continuing the bounty upon the 500 gallon stills; it was because he conceived that there was a kind of compact upon the subject between the government and the distiller.
Sir J. Newport
said, that when 200 gallon stills were allowed to be worked by law, it was right to give a bounty upon 500 gallon stills, to encourage the use of large ones; but when 200 gallon stills were prohibited, and that 500 gallon stills were the smallest
62
[Army Estimates.]—The Secretary at War
brought up an account of the estimates for the service of the army, and for the expenses of guards and garrisons. These he stated to be merely of a formal nature, and similar to those which had been last presented to the house. They were estimates formed for the period of a month only; and the reason why he proposed them for so short a time was, that the present Mutiny Bill would expire on the 24th inst. It therefore became necessary, in order to give the house an opportunity of fully discussing the military plans that had been brought forward, to introduce a Mutiny bill founded on similar estimates to the preceding, to continue in force for another month. Should the new military measures proposed to the house be adopted, proper estimates, founded on these measures, would of course be presented at the close of that period. He now wished that these estimates should merely be laid on the table; and to-morrow he would move for voting them in a committee of supply.
Mr. Yorke
said, that he could have no objection to give ministers full time for maturing their military plans. At the same time he must say, that this was the only instance, within his recollection, of such short estimates being from time to time presented, during the continuance of war. At the conclusion of a war, before the peace establishment was fully settled, such a practice had been not unusual, but it was certainly extraordinary while the country was engaged in war. The rt. hon. secretary had often charged the administration with which he was connected, with culpable delay in bringing forward their military plans, but it now appeared that, after so long a period had expired, his own measures were not even now in any state of forwardness. The house and the country would compare the conduct of the two administrations, and would decide to which of them the charge of dilatoriness was most applicable. With regard to the distinguishing part of the rt. hon. secretary's plan, the limitation of the soldier's service, he would call upon him to consider, whether this might not be better done by the king's prerogative, than by parliament; and thus an experiment be made, which the legislature might either sanction or reject. He merely, however, threw out this hint for the consideration of the rt. hon. gent.
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Mr. Secretary Windham
acknowledged that it was perfectly fair for the rt. hon. gent. to call upon the house to draw such a comparison; but it would also be proper for them to compare what the delay in the one case had produced, with what it had produced in the other. The reason why estimates for so short a period were presented, was merely for the purpose of giving the house an opportunity of fully discussing the plans that had been submitted to them. With regard to the suggestion of the rt. hon. gent. it could not be said to bear much relation to the present question; and it might be sufficient to observe, that whatever might be enacted on the subject of limited service, the legislature would every year have the power of making whatever alterations might appear proper. There would always be sufficient opportunities for discussing the subject, and the discussions might be founded on the basis of experiment.
Mr. Perceval
suspected, that the farther extension of the present army estimates for a month would be found insufficient. It was now a full month since the rt. hon. secretary laid open his plan to the house, while it did not appear that any difference of Opinion existed among ministers on the subject; at least the rt. hon. secretary for the foreign department had declared his full concurrence with the plan of his colleague. It was not, therefore, unreasonable to suppose that, if ministers had required a month to digest a plan, about which they were agreed, that house, where it would meet with so many opponents, would require a still longer period for its discussion.
The Secretary at War
apprehended, that a month would be fully sufficient to enable the house to come to a determination on the new military plans. Besides, when a new Mutiny bill was introduced at the close of that period, there would be full opportunity to discuss the new clauses, founded on the alterations that might be introduced into the military system.
Mr. Yorke
asked, whether it was intended to introduce the three bills for which leave had been given, with the bill for the repeal of the Additional Force act, and which had not since been heard of; the bill for suspending the militia ballot, the bill for Training en masse, and the bill for extending the allowance of Chelsea Hospital.
Mr. Windham
said these bills were in preparation; but he could not mention any particular day for the introduction of them.
64
[Arrears of the Public Accounts.] —Lord Henry Petty
rose to give a general notice on a very important subject. Gentlemen must be aware that there had been for some days on the table a most important report of the commissioners of military inquiry. (See appendix, vol. vi. p. cliii.) The facts contained in that report made it necessary that measures should be taken, without one day's delay, to apply a remedy to the abuses which they proved. But as they were under the consideration of his majesty's government, and so far advanced as to render it likely that it would be produced before the close of the present session, one general measure for bringing up the arrears of the public accountants, it was conceived that the subject the report on the table applied to, would be most properly included in that general measure. The suggestions contained in that report would be fully attended to in framing the general measure under consideration. He assured the house, in the mean time, that this delay of the legislative provision, would not prevent the adoption of immediate steps to obtain the repayment of the large balance that appeared to be due to the public from a person who had lately held an office of high public trust (General De Lancey), late barrack master general.
[Affairs of India.] Mr. Paull
rose to move for the production of several papers, in further support of his charges against the marquis Wellesley. They consisted of an account of the new taxes levied, and the old imposts revived, under the government and during the administration of the marquis, in India, with a long series of others, respecting the revenues, police, and municipal arrangements of the country. On the question being put upon the first,
Mr. Bankes
observed, that the house having now proceeded so far in this business as to have allowed a charge to be laid upon their table, for the crimination of the noble marquis; and to grant to the hon. gent. who brought it forward, a vast mass of papers to support those charges, the business now began to assume a serious turn; and it therefore became necessary for the house to consider what steps were most fit to be farther pursued. The first thing to be considered was, whether the charges sustained upon such documents as were now before the house, were such as ought to be entertained? and if they were, then the next thing to be considered was, in what manner the house should proceed, as best calculated to attain
65
66
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that he recollected the clauses to which the hon. gent. alluded, and disapproved of them at the time they were under discussion. He agreed with the sentiment of the hon. gent. that the house ought not to assume judicial function is where it could be avoided; because the judicial functions of that house was a powerful weapon, which ought not to be used every day, and upon every slight subject. But the judicial functions of the house was a privilege of too much value and importance to be abandoned or surrendered upon any occasion without due consideration and great caution; for convinced he was that by the exercise of its functions the house of commons had done more towards placing this country upon the high constitutional ground it now stood than any other part of its deliberative proceedings. He therefore wished that it never should be supposed for a single moment, that the house had abandoned or surrendered that privilege to a minor court, upon which so much of the safety of the country might hereafter depend.
The Marquis of Douglas,
instead of considering the subject unfit to be brought before that house, thought it their duty not to recede a single step in the proceeding which had been commenced. He was far from thinking that this was a case which ought to be abandoned to the inferior courts. But in consequence of what had fallen from the rt. hon. sec. of state, in the true spirit of those principles which he had always professed, he should deem it unnecessary to trespass on the time of the house in endeavouring to shew that parliamentary impeachment was the only fit mode of proceeding in accusations of high crimes and misdemeanors.
Sir Arthur Wellesley
declared, that the more speedily the subject of the charges against his noble relation could be put at issue, and the more expeditious the mode by which the matter could be brought to its final decision, the more satisfactory would it be to that noble lord, and to all his friends; but at the same time, he thought it highly necessary that all the papers moved for by the hon. gent. should be laid ons the table,
67
Mr. Francis
denied the doctrine laid down by Mr. Fox, that the house of commons was a court of justice, or acted in a judicial capacity; to call it so was a misnomer: it was properly the grand inquest, whose province was to inquire respecting the validity of great criminal charges, and then to proceed as the accuser or prosecutor before a high court of justice. But he was of opinion, that such were the charges which the house had now entertained against the noble marquis, and so enormous was their nature, that, if true, they sunk the imputed criminality of another noble lord, now on his trial, comparatively, almost to nothing. If lord Melville's case was one which required impeachment, marquis Wellesley's was one which required it much more strongly, Where one was accused of taking thousands, the other was accused of wasting millions. The house was bound to go into an inquiry, and come to some decision upon the business, instead of abandoning it to the jurisdiction of another tribunal. He did not, for his own part, presume to anticipate any guilt on the part of the noble marquis. He wished to have him heard at the bar, in answer to these charges, as had been the case with sir Elijah Impey and Mr. Hastings; and if he could make a satisfactory defence for his own vindication, he should have his vote to quash all further proceedings.
Mr. Fox
said, he only meant that the particular charge of extortion might be a fit subject for the jurisdiction of the court appointed by the 24th of his majesty, without reference to the other charges.
Mr. H. Addington
stated, that the difference between this case and that of another lord alluded to, consisted in this: the case alluded to proceeded on a resolution of this house, finding that the noble lord in question had violated an act of parliament, and that he had applied the public money to his own advantage. Here no peculation was even alleged, nor was any evidence given of the supposed breach of the law.
Dr. Laurence
thought it was in the power
68
Mr. Paull
then moved for a variety of other papers, for the purpose of shewing the interest paid on the loans by the Marquis Wellesley, the amounts of salaries, house-rents, &c. payable to persons holding offices under him, &c.; which, after some additional remarks from Mr. Bankes, in which he expressed his determination, on a future occasion, to call the attention of the house to the state in which the matter then stood, were agreed to.—On the motion of the Marquis of Douglas, in addition to a former order, there was ordered to be laid before the house an account of all gratuities, pensions, or presents, paid or payable in India to servants of the East India company down to the latest period.
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL]
The house resolved itself into a committee on this bill. As the chairman was reading the proposed alteration in the clause respecting the penalties now levied,
Mr. Yorke
wished the rt. hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) would state, generally, what was the nature of the alterations he intended to propose in that respect?
Mr. Windham
said, it was his intention to propose, that those penalties which were due under the act should not be enforced, and that those which had been paid should be refunded.
Mr. Yorke
wished also to know, why the Army of Reserve act had been mentioned in the clause?
Mr. Windham
replied, that it was because the Additional Force act repealed the Army of Reserve act, and it might, therefore, be doubted whether the repeal of that act would not be a revival of the Army of Reserve.
Mr. Bankes
said, that although he was friendly to the principle of the bill, he would rather abandon it altogether than agree to such a clause. As to the bill itself, he wished it to be repealed, because he was sure it had completely failed; and although a sufficient time had been allowed for it to produce
69
Mr. Secretary Windham
admitted that the clause was certainly not without some inconvenience, but the question was now only, whether any less inconvenient mode could be pointed out. There were three ways in which the house might proceed; either to retain the penalties paid and remit the remainder, or to suffer the bill to continue, or to remit the penalties due, and to refund those paid. The first was liable to weighty objections, though he did not think as highly so as others. As to the feeling that those parishes might entertain, who had raised men, he could not entirely enter into the
70
"Solamen miseris socios habuisse doloris."
71
Sir E. Hartopp
said he thought it would be an injustice to his constituents, who had raised their full quota of men under the act, if they were to have no indemnification for their trouble, expence, and exertions, whilst other counties that had failed of carrying the act into execution, should be released from all penalties. The parishes that did exert themselves, and procured the men for the defence of the country, ought to be paid for their trouble, as an encouragement to zeal and loyalty for the future.
Sir W. Milner
observed, that some reflections had been attempted to be cast upon the parish of Mary-la-bonne, for not haying raised any men under the additional force act. The fact was, they were not able to raise a single Man by the provisions of the bill: they would not have recourse to the illegal means of crimping, though others had done so; and even though the same person (one of those called crimps) that had been employed by others, offered his services to them, they still adhered to what was lawful and honourable.
Mr. G. Vansittart
Supported the clause. He thought that those counties that had exerted themselves to get the men in the.manner pointed out by thelaw, but had failed, were more meritorious than those that had procured them contrary to law.
Mr. Shaw Lefevre
recommended that a clause should be inserted, in the bill, ordering the amount of the fines remitted or refunded to.parishes, to be put to the fund for the relief of the poor in each Parish or district. He denied that there was any unwillingness on the part of the people in any place that he had any knowledge of, to exert themselves in support of the provisions of the bill. The fact was, so many different militia were brought forward in quick succession after each other, that it was totally impossible to procure the men.
Mr. Windham
observed, that there was a clause in the bill, directing the application of the money to those purposes.
General Tarleton
observed, that several members had stigmatised the men raised by the Parish bill. For his own part he could assert that he had inspected the rolls, and saw several of the men, and he never saw finer men in his life. The inspecting officer would not have passed them if they were defective. He would also say that if the
72
Dr. Laurence
said that it was to him one of the most extraordinary assertions he had ever heard in a legislative assembly, that it would be right to break a positive law. With respect to the qualifications of the men for military service, there were letters on the table which shewed there was a secret understanding by which men; to be raised under the act then discussing, were allowed to be taken two inches under the usual standard, and ten years older than they would be admitted into other military bodies.
Mr. Ellison
said, he had opposed the Additional Force bill in all its stages, because he thought it a measure of false pretences, and injustice to many parts of the country in which it was impossible to carry it into effect. Yet he thought this clause objectionable, as leaving the whole burthen on those countries that had obeyed the law, and releasing from all penalties those that had neglected so to do.
Mr. Fuller
said that the act which was now to be repealed, was a mere act of experiment, and the experiment had completely failed. In his part of the country it was absolutely impossible to raise the men, and therefore he thought it would be very unjust that the parishes should be subject to the penalties.
Lord Castlereagh,
said, as the house seemed now to have adopted the proposition for the repeal of the act, it was in vain for him to renew his objections to that course of proceeding. The question now was as to the wisdom of returning the fines, and he was firmly of opinion, under all the circumstances of their becoming due, that by so doing, the legislature would surrender its authority and its respectability. He doubted whether the committee was proceeding formally in the discussion of such a question, as the money must be considered to have been paid into the exchequer, and to be now at the disposal of the executive government, for the purposes of the Country at large. He apprehended no injury would result, if parliament would appoint some time by which the defaulting parishes should be required to furnish the men, or be subjected to the in-
73
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, May 9.
[MINUTES]
On the return of their lordships from the High Court of Parliament, an order was made that they should proceed again on the trial of lord Melville to-morrow.—Lord Walsingham made a report from the Committee of Privileges, on the Roos Peerage. The report stated, that the Duke of Rutland had no title to the barony claimed by the co-heirs of Robert de Roos; and that the said barony was in abeyance, between the earl of Essex, the lady of lord Henry Fitzgerald, and sir H. Hunloke, bart—The house resolved itself into a committee on the Slave Trade bill; and the same was reported, and ordered to be read a third time on Tuesday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 9.>
[MINUTES]
A message from the lords announced their lordships intention of proceeding further with the trial of lord Melville at ten o'clock to-morrow in Westminster Hall.—Sir C. Price presented a petition from the army accoutrement makers of London, against the bill pending in parliament for the regulation of the sale of hides and skins.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee on the Tortola Free Port bill—The estimates presented yesterday by the Secretary at War having been ordered to be referred to the committee of Supply, the house resolved itself into the said committee, in which, on the motion of the secretary
74
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.] Mr. Hobhouse
brought up the Report of the committee on this bill; which being read.
Mr. Tyrwhit Jones
said, that during the progress of this bill, he had not hitherto troubled the house with a single observation nor should he say more than a few words at present. He had voted against this bill on its first introduction, because he thought it was a bad measure; but bad as it was, he liked it better than the outline which was given of that now in contemplation; and he wished to give notice, that should the new bill be no better than what was to be expected from the opening, he should think it his duty to oppose it from day to day.
Mr. Ellison
observed, that the fines which had been levied were the property of the public, and ought not to be returned. Besides, they would never return to the pockets of the individuals from whom they were taken.
Mr. Bankes
thought the bill, with this clause attached to it, even more dangerous than he had formerly considered it. He hoped there would be no objection to print it. There Would he a difficulty in the repaying, of which the rt. hon. gent. did not seem to be aware.
Mr. Windham
did not think there was any occasion to print it, as the house was perfectly in possession of the objectionable clause. However if it was thought a material object, he would not object.—The bill was then ordered to be printed as amended, and to be read a third time on Tuesday.
[IRON DUTY BILL.]
The order of the day having been read for the house to resolve itself into a committee on the Iron Duty bill, lord H Petty moved that the Speaker do now leave the chair.
Mr. Curwen
rose with great reluctance to oppose this measure, but he trusted the house would do him the justice to believe, that no light grounds would induce him to throw any impediment in the way of government, at a moment like the present. Without entering into any details, he thought that the very first and most general view of the subject, ought to he sufficient to warrant him in calling on ministers to abandon this tax, and adopt some one less
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76
77
Mr. Stuart Wortley
wished to call the attention of the house to the tax, as it affected the manufactures, the agriculture of the country, and the comforts of the poor. He contended, that it would raise the price of many of those manufactures, in which iron was principally employed, 12½ per cent. and in some cases much higher This was a most serious consideration to the country, when the manufactures of Flanders, of Prussia, and of Stiria, were able to come in competition with us in the foreign markets, and even to undersell us in the coarser articles. It was proposed, however, to give a certain drawback on articles exported; but he thought that nothing short of a drawback equal to the increased price which they, would bear in this country, would be sufficient, and this would greatly diminish the produce of the tax. The seats of the great manufacture of Iron ware, With one of which he was particularly, connected, had been seriously affected by the wars on the continent, and this tax would have on them the most injurious effects. Its influence on agriculture would also be pernicious. It would tend to give the grazing farmer, who made less use of horses and implements of iron manufacture, great advantages over the arable and thus would throw an undue proportion of the country into pasture. It would press heavily also on the poor; iron was a necessary part of most of the tools which they employed, and thus the very implements which they used might be placed almost beyond their reach. The great and comprehensive mind of the right hon. gent., who preceded the noble lord in his situation, had perceived the injury which such a tax was calculated to produce, and had relinquished his intention of imposing it. He trusted that his example would be followed in the present instance. He concluded with opposing the Speaker's leaving the chair, and declaring, that he would take the sense of the house on the question.
Mr. Mordaunt
said, that however sorry he might be to oppose measures of finance at this arduous period, he could not but object to a measure, the effect of which must inevitably be to throw a gloom on the spirit of our manufactures, to cut up those very resources to which the country would have to look for its protection and defence, and to drive from bread very numerous classes of
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Mr. H. Lascelles
said, be hoped the noble lord would proceed with caution in this business He was afraid the operation of this tax would be attended with very serious and mischievous consequences to this country. He had seen statements, which said that foreign markets were. selling the same articles at lower rates than our own, such, particularly, as the grosser iron wares that were made in Sheffield. If this was the
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Mr. Wilberforce
expressed his entire concurrence with what had fallen from his hon. colleague, and complimented the hon. member who preceded him (Mr. Mordaunt), on account of the elegant and impressive manner in which he had delivered his sentiments on the subject. He acknowledged, that the situation of the minister of finance had of late, every year, grown more and more difficult; since almost every object of taxation had already been resorted to. It had therefore become difficult to select a tax that was not liable to some objections; but on a fair estimate of all the arguments presented to his-mind, and perhaps also from certain prejudices which he might entertain, the present tax appeared peculiarly objectionable. It had been well observed, that the possession of iron was one of the great grounds of distinction between civilized and barbarous society; and in the same proportion that this country had improved in manufactures and civilization, the manufacture of iron had been extended and improved, and found its way, by numerous meandering streams, into every department of civil life. The number of those employed in producing the raw material, and of those who afterwards wrought it up into every article of utility or elegance, was very great; these were mostly men of athletic make, and great bodily vigour, which was a consideration of no small consequence, in viewing the general utility of a manufacture, since it had been too justly said that too many of our manufactures tended to deteriorate the physical constitution, and produce a feeble and degenerate race of men, without spirit or ability to defend their rights. In this view alone he thought the manufacture of iron in all its branches highly deserving of encouragement, and deprecated any obstruction being given to its progress. He computed the number of those engaged in the various branches of the manufacture at between 4 and 500,000; and when it was considered how much every one of them contributed to the revenues of the state, by
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Sir R. Buxton
expressed his surprise that the landed interest should so readily have consented to the tax on husbandry horses that had been rejected last year, which would certainly bear exclusively on a particular class of society. He was aware of the pressure of the tax then under consideration upon agriculture, but when he considered the circumstances of the country, such a tax extending to the whole of the country ought to be preferred.
Mr. Wilberforce
in explanation observed, that he did not think the farmers would gain any thing by the present tax, in preference to the other, except the satisfaction of thinking that others were subject to it as well as themselves. He suggested that a tax on footmen might perhaps be productive, and as little injurious to the country as any other.
Sir W Young
contended that it was a principle of taxation to lay the tax on articles that were most diffusive, and consequently would be most productive. He did
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Lord A. Hamilton
said, after the objections to the bill had been so ably stated by the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Wilberforce), it was not necessary for him to say much. He objected to the bill not as injurious for the present moment merely, but as it went to affect the future revenues of the country. There was hardly a single article either of manufacture or agriculture which would not be affected by it. It was said to be an argument in favour of the bill, that it would operate generally. He agreed that it would operate as a general burden, but he denied that it would be generally productive. His, lordship denied that the manufacture was ripe for taxation. If in so objectionable a measure any thing could be more objectionable than another, it was the subject of
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Mr. Calcraft
could not agree with his noble friend, that the iron trade was not yet ripe enough to produce a revenue. He thought if the iron trade had doubled, as it was admitted had been the case within the last ten years, it was impossible to deny that it was a fit object of taxation. Considering the state of the country, and the necessity there was for making every article contribute to the present exigencies; considering that every necessary of life was taxed; considering the high duty on malt, and even on salt; and considering the great and extraordinary length to which the income tax had been carried this year, it was rather matter of surprise that the present tax had not sooner been thought of. If it could be made out that, by proper drawbacks being allowed, no loss would arise to our foreign market, and, at the same time, that a great increase would thereby arise to the revenue, of probably 3 or 400,000l. it would require some reasoning stronger than he had yet heard to prove that the tax ought not to be adopted. The hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Wilberforce) had, as he always did, made a very eloquent speech, but all he had said would have been perfectly applicable to the first introduction of the excise laws into this country. The gentlemen now sought to be put under the regulations of excise would not have the same necessity for frequent visits from the officers as others had. To shew that the obsertation of the hon. bart. (sir W. Young), that the excellence of the manufacture was what recommended it to foreign markets, he instanced the great fluctuation which had taken place in the prices, being to the extent of upwards of 20 per cent. which nevertheless had had no effect on the amount of the exports; and, by taking a comparative view of the drawback, acknowledged by the dealers themselves to be sufficient, and those proposed to be granted by the present bill, shewed that the drawbacks which it was in the contemplation of the framers of the bill to allow, were full sufficient.
Mr. Francis
felt much reluctance to object to any measure originating with gentlemen, to whom partiality and habit attached him.
84
Mr. Vansittart
observed, minutely, on all the arguments which had been made use of in the course of the debate. It had been stated, he said, that the house had always abstained from imposing taxes on the raw material, and particularly iron. It was but lately that iron came to be manufactured to any great extent in this country, but the taxes on foreign iron were multiplied session after session; and, in fact, there were many other taxes which acted as a direct tax on iron, and which never were opposed; he meant the taxes on wood and coals. He could not allow that it would destroy the great iron works, the roads and bridges; the same argument would apply to that, which applied to the foreign trade, namely, that the fluctuation in the price never put a stop to these great works; though it diflered so much as to be in the year 1799, 16l. a ton; in 1803, 19l.; and immediately after that to fall to 14l.; and yet this fluctuation had no effect on the trade. The statements that had been referred to, were much exaggerated, and the drawbacks in the bill were sufficient to cover the trade from the effect of the tax. In some instances the drawback proposed to be allowed exceeded that demanded by the manufacturers; in others they were less; but every liberality would be extended to the wishes of gentlemen on the subject, and the drawbacks might be modified or extended so as to be satisfactory to those concerned. As to the excise, he appealed to his hon. and learned friend, (Mr. Perceval), whether any harsh provisions on that head existed in the bill. Indeed, such provisions were unnecessary, because a bar of pig iron was an article that could not easily be smuggled. The tax would bear so small a proportion to the immense capital employed in such concerns, that they could not he materially affected thereby. He could see nothing in the state of the countries on the continent, to give rise to the apprehensions entertained with respect to the foreign trade. As to America, it was a country in the infancy of
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Sir Ralph Milbanke
professed that it was with reluctance he opposed any measure of his majesty's present ministers, as he felt the greatest confidence in their integrity and talents. He was averse, however, to this bill in the first instance, though he would not oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair, as such modifications might be adopted in the committe as would render the measure less objectionable. The county he represented, though iron was no part of its manufacture, yet consumed a great deal of that article. The county he represented, though it did not manufacture any iron, yet consumed great deal, and would be materially affected by the tax.
Sir J. Wrottesley
went over the whole of the arguments which had been used in the course evening. He was glad the debate had been postponed so long, as his hon. friends had by that means an opportunity of making up their minds, and offering such arguments as could not fail to convince the house. The fluctuation in the price of iron, he acknowledged was great, but that could not have had any effect at the foreign market, as when Iron was dear we exported very little, on account of our hostility with the Northern Powers. At this time the demand was so great at home, that, to use a tradesman's expression, the pigs were not allowed to be cold before they were taken away. This demand of course raised the price of the commodity; but, some time after, it lowered considerably, on the suggestion of
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Mr. Alderman Prinsep
did not conceive the proposed tax on the raw material as at all likely to have the effect which some gentlemen apprehended upon the higher wrought articles. The fact was, that upon the rate of, such articles the original tax would scarcely have any effect. This tax, he remarked, was opposed altogether by the representations of interested persons, and therefore not entitled to the attention which many gentlemen seemed disposed to attach to them.— He remembered that when the tax upon silk was raised at the rate of from 5s. to 13s. a great outcry was raised among the manufacturers, yet the fact was, that notwithstanding this increase, the silk manufactory had considerably advanced. He was not at all surprised, however, that the Iron merchants wished to shift the burden from their own shoulders to somebody else. This was no more than what was natural.
Mr. W Smith
could not admit, that the Excise would be so dangerous as some gentlemen supposed. It had been found the simplest and the cheapest way of collecting a tax. On the other hand, he could not admit, that, because the tax upon wood did not prevent us from building ships, it would therefore be safe to lay a tax on iron also. The fact was, that the Americans, notwithstanding the high price of labour, built ships cheaper than us. Although he disapproved of the tax, he wished the bill to go into a committee, in order to see whether it could be so modified as to be accomodated to the feelings of the manufacturers. If this modification were found practical, he would be ready to grant it that support which he would be happy on all occasions to afford to his right hon. friends on the treasury bench.
Lord Henry
Petty said, he had forborne to state his sentiments, until he heard the
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Mr. Rose knew
his late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) having once abandoned the idea of the tax upon iron, had never changed his opinion on the subject. It appeared to him in many ways injurious to our manufactures. He remembered once, that a tax upon inland navigation was proposed, but given up as injurious to our manufactures. He considered that this would affect the iron railways in a similar manner. When the noble lord talked of the small expense of iron in his arable farm in Scotland, he supposed the horses on that farm went, as the men sometimes did in his country, without shoes. He could not believe that our prospect was such as had been stated, of increasing our exports to North America. That country was now in a high state of population, equal, as he understood, to England in that respect, and yet, notwithstanding this great population, the demand for our hardware from that quarter was not increasing. Of all manufactures this appeared to be the one which they would take up first. The Germans at present nearly equalled us, even in the finest hardware. If then the price of our goods Were still further increased by a duty, we should soon see our exports diminish considerably. Upon the whole, he earnestly recommended the noble lord to abandon this tax, and suggested to his consideration, as substitutes, taxes upon horses kept for pleasure, upon those employed in agriculture, upon male servants, and upon gentlemen's carriages: these were sources from which, he thought, the noble lord might draw a more productive revenue than the tax before the house could promise, and at the same time avoid any kind of oppression or injury to commerce.
Mr. Secretary Fox
observed, that having had the satisfaction to hear the opinions of different gentlemen, their arguments had certainly great weight upon his mind, but there was not a single argument which had been advanced in the course of that night's debate which did not equally apply to almost every other tax that could possibly be brought forward. There was hardly one of the taxes that had been laid on for these twelve years past which he could say he thoroughly approved of. They were all laid on articles which most writers agreed in saying that they were not fit objects of taxation. But the fact was, that we were now placed in such circumstances that we were driven to
91
Mr. Canning
thought it material to contradict what had been advanced by the rt. hon. secretary, on the subject of the drawback to be allowed, and read a paper from the committee of iron-masters in town, which stated, that they had represented the necessity of 8s. per ton being allowed, but that only 6's. was granted by the bill. He deprecated the principle of the bill; he could not conceive the object of it, unless it was to involve the iron manufactory in the distress that others had experienced, and to exemplify a late. quotation of a rt. hon. secretary (Mr. Windham),
"Solamen miseris socios habuisse doloris."
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pro forma.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Saturday, May 10.
[MINUTES.]
The house proceeded as usual to Westminster-hall. Their lordships returned soon after four, when an order was made to proceed further on the trial of lord viscount Melville on Tuesday, and a message sent to the house of commons to acquaint them therewith.—The report of the resolutions of the committee of privileges, respecting the claims to the Roos Peerage, and setting forth that the barony in question remains in abeyance between the co-heirs of Robert de Roos, viz. George-earl of Essex, lady H. Fitzgerald, sir H. Hunloke, &c. was again read; it was then confirmed by the house, and the usual address, to his majesty voted on the occasion, to be presented by the Lords with white staves.—The bills upon the table, chiefly private, were forwarded in their respective stages.—The Earl of Radnor having some observations to offer to the house, respecting points of Order and Privilege, and touching certain proceedings relative to the high Court in Westminster Hall, the strangers were ordered to withdraw and the exclusion continued some time. After the doors were opened, the Bristol Harbour Improvement bill was brought up from the commons by Mr. Baillie and others, and forthwith read a first time; after which the house adjourned till Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, May 10.
A message from the lords informed the house, that their lordships would proceed further on the trial of Henry lord viscount Melville, on Tuesday next at ten o'clock.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the Committee of Supply on Friday night, granting a Vote for the service of the Army for one month. The resolutions were agreed to, and a bill was ordered to be brought in pursuant thereto.—The Secretary at war gave
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, May 12.
[Minutes.]
The Duke of Norfolk reported from the Committee appointed for that purpose, several Regulations proposed to be adopted respecting the admission of Persons into the High Court of Parliament, which were agreed to.—Mr. Irving, Inspector General of Imports and Exports, presented several Accounts relative to the Slave Trade which were ordered to lie on the table.—Lord Grenville presented a Message from his Majesty respecting making a provision for earl Nelson, and the future possessors of the title. (Vide our report of the House of Commons.) His lordship observed, that there could be no difference of opinion upon this subject; but in conformity with the usual practice of the house, he would now merely move, that his majesty's most gracious message be taken into consideration to-morrow. Ordered.
[ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN SCOTLAND.]
The order for summoning their lordships relative to the propositions on this subject, which lord Grenville had, on a former evening, given notice of his intention to bring forward, being read,
Lord Grenville rose
and observed, that he was under the necessity of still further postponing that which he had intended to submit to their lordship's consideration that evening. It must be obvious to their lordships, that a matter of so nice and complicated a nature as the new modelling the mode of Administration of Justice in a country must require deep and mature consideration, and much consultation with those persons who were most conversant with such topics. He had already devoted much time to the subject; but the variety of other important avocations which equally challenged his attention, prevented him from being able to bring forward the business in as perfect state as he could wish. When he did bring it forward, it would be in the shape of a series of resolutions, upon which he should not press any immediate decision, but merely that they be laid upon the table to be ma-
94
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.]
Lord Mulgrave presented a petition from certain ship owners and others of the town and port of Scarborough, against the above bill, and praying that it might not pass into a law. Ordered to lie on the table. The order being read for taking the report of the bill into consideration,
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, he had an amendment to propose to the bill, the effect of which would be, instead of suffering the duration of the bill to extend, as now fixed, until six months after the expiration of the war, to limit it to the first day of July, 1807, which might be about the period of the close of the next session of parliament. He thought that an amendment of this kind could not be seriously objected to. This would have the effect of leaving the subject open for farther investigation, and afford ministers a more regular opportunity of acting upon the occasion, than could offer, were the bill to pass in its present shape; for instance, it might in the proposed interval be ascertained how far the British Colonies, in North America, could supply certain articles of the consumption of the West-India Islands, and how far regulations, in the nature of protecting duties, may be expedient. He was aware of the difficulty of entering into such an extensive investigation at present, under such a pressure of public business, and in such an advanced period of the session; however, in the ensuing session, such an enquiry might be taken up with great advantage; and, in this view, he had shaped his proposed amendment. The noble lord then moved, "that instead of 'until six months after the expiration of the war,' the words '1st day of July, 1807,' be inserted." On the question being put,
The Earl of Suffolk
made a few observations in favour of the bill in its present shape. A noble and learned lord, said, he observed, on a former evening, that the Bill was new in its principle: it might be so, but it was a change of principle for the bet-
95
Lord Sheffield
observed, that in almost every instance he perceived the incorrectness of the statements and assertions of the friends of the bill; and he was become still more anxious that the first court of judicature should not lie under the imputation of refusing to hear the complaints of the people, and how their concerns have been misrepresented. He should therefore, notwithstanding his objections to the principle and to the whole measure, agree to the amendment, if he could obtain a fair hearing for the petitioners, and an investigation of the subject. His lordship said, he would state, in proof of the necessity of examining the assertions to which he alluded, what the real state of ship-building is in the port of London. Noble lords had ventured to say, that shipbuilding flourishes even beyond what it has done at any former period, and that the increase of foreign shipping in our trade did not keep pace with the increase in our own shipping. His lordship then read an account of the ships which have been built, or are now building in the river Thames, since December, 1802, to the present period, viz. For the King's service eleven ships; East-India Company seventeen ships; merchants' only four ships; fisheries one; the whole in three and one-half years, except a very few small vessels; viz. one sugar, drogher, three hoys for the East-India Company's service, two ballast lighters, one mortar-boat, and one pleasure yacht. At this moment only two ships (part of the above four) are building for the merchants' service. This melancholy statement he was ready to prove at the bar of the house, and that it was in general the same in every port of the kingdom. As to the assertion, that British shipping in our trade has increased in proportion to the foreign, he should prove, even by the same documents as were made use of by his noble friend, (lord Auckland), and which were known to be exaggerated,
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97
sui generis,
98
Lord Auckland
shortly argued in favour of the bill, which he chiefly supported on the ground of the necessity of the case, and the policy of not recurring to the former practices which the bill went to remedy. The noble lord defended the statements he had on a former occasion made to the house respecting the state of our shipping, which, he contended, were, correct. He objected to the proposed amendment, because, from the shortness of the time, it would Materially interfere with that certainty which merchants should have of being allowed to sell their goods before they embarked in such a trade.
The Duke of Montrose
was decidedly in favour of the amendment, but would not
99
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
defended the measure in question, on the ground of its necessity, and thought the period originally proposed, preferable to that offered by the amendment. The responsibility was, he contended, placed where it ought to be, viz. in the Government of the Country. The noble earl denied that this could be considered a permanent measure, its duration being limited to the continuance of the war, and until six months after the conclusion of a definitive treaty of peace. The necessity of some such measure during war had, he thought, been agreed on all hands, and it was rendered the more necessanow, as from the observations which had been made respecting the conduct of the Governors of our West India Islands, if a measure like the present was not passed, they would be doubtful as to what mode of conduct they ought to pursue.
The Earl of Carnarvon
could not help making an obervation on what the noble lord (Duke of Montrose) had said. The
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101
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 12.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Henry Martin took the oaths and his seat for Kinsale.—On the motion of sir Charles Price, it was ordered, 1. That there be laid before this house, an account of the number and tonnage of all ships and vessels built in Great Britain, in the several years from 1790 to 1804; distinguishing each year, and the ports or places where they were respectively built.—2. That there be laid before this house, an account of the number and tonnage of British-built ships in the year 1792; distinguishing the ports to which they belonged.—3. That there be laid before this house, an account of the number and tonnage of prize ships which had been made free and registered from the 5th of January, 1790, to the 5th of January, 1793, inclusive.—4. That there be laid before this house, and account of the number and tonnage of British-built ships in the year 1805; distinguishing the ports to which they belonged.—5. That there be laid before this house, an account of the number and tonnage of prize ships which had been made free and registered from the 5th of January, 1806, inclusive.—Mr. Matthews, in pursuance of a notice he had given for an amendment in the general Turnpike act, stated, that in consequence of that part of the law which imposed a penalty of 5l. on all persons driving waggons on turnpike roads, with wheels of less than six inches thickness, and with less than four horses, there were numerous complaints made of the decisions of magistrates. What he had to propose was, to give the parties an appeal from the decision of the magistrates to the court of quarter sessions, and to allow half of the penalty to be paid to the informer. He then moved for leave to bring in a bill to that effect, which was agreed to.—Mr. Meheux, from the office of the Commissioners for the Affairs of India, presented at the bar of the house, "Extracts of Letters, &c. received from the presidency of Bombay, relative to the sum of Bombay Rupees 31,25,944 inserted in the account of their Disbursements, for the year ending the 30th of April, 1803, and said to be money lent to the Gulcowar." Ordered to lie upon the table and to be printed.—Mr. Secretary at War, presented to the house (according to order) a bill for continuing an act, made in this session of
102
103
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Sir Arthur Welles-
104
said, he wished to enquire of the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull), whether he meant to bring forward the charge against the marquis of Wellesley, respecting his transactions in Oude, this Week? The reason why he asked the question was, that it would be much more convenient for him to attend the discussion in the course of the ensuing Week; as particular business required his going for a few days into the country. His object, however, at present, was, pursuant to his notice, to move for the following papers, viz. that there be laid before this house 1. "A Copy of a Letter to the Court of Directors in the Judicial Department, dated 6th July 1802, from the Governor General in council, transmitting a Copy of the Answers to the Governor General's interrogatories sent by the several judicial officers and collectors throughout the provinces. 2. That there be laid before this house, extract of a general letter from the court of directors in the revenue and judicial department; dated 14th September 1803, paragraph 15, to the government of Bengal, signifying the court's approbation of the zeal which the governor general had manifested for the public interests, in proposing certain queries to the collectors and magistrates. 3. That there be laid before this house, extract of a letter from the court of directors in the public department, dated 26th March 1801, Paragraph 48, approving of the arrangements of the governor general in council for the regulation of the press. 4. That there be laid before this house, a copy of the minutes of the governor general lord Wellesley, dated 19th March 1801, and recorded in the secret and political department, for improving the governor general's office. 5. That there be laid before this house, extract of a separate letter from the governor general in Council to the court of directors dated. 31st of July 1801, paragraphs 28 to 40 inclusive, respecting the re-establishment of the town duties, and the improvement of the government customs; together With any reply from the court of directors to the same. 6. That there be laid before this house, extract of a letter in the revenue department from the Bengal government to the court of directors, dated 5th March 1800, paragraphs 14 to 20, inclusive, relative to the stamp duties, and to the establishment of other sources of revenue. 7. That there be laid before this house, extract of a letter from the Bengal government, in the revenue department to the court of
105
Mr. Paull
signified his readiness to concur in the suggestion of the hon. general and declared his intention to submit a motion to the house on the subject, if some satisfactory reason should not be given for the delay in the production of the Bhurtpore Papers.
[PEACE IN INDIA] Mr. Johnstone
said, he rose for the purpose of asking a question upon a subject which he considered to be of extreme public importance. He had heard that a dispatch had been received at the India House, stating that lord Lake had written letters to general Nicholson and general Jones, in one of which he ordered general Jones to withdraw his troops from the position they held, as a peace had been concluded with Scindia. He therefore wish-
106
Mr. Creevey
replied, that an overland dispatch had certainly been received from Bombay, at the India house, stating not the actual conclusion of peace with Scindiah, but that such an event was probable, and describing the distresses of Holkar. If the hon. gent was desirous of learning the contents of the dispatch, he might have satisfied his wishes by applying in another quarter.
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING THE FAMILY OF LORD NELSON.] Lord Henry Petty
acquainted the houre, that he had a Message from his majesty to this house, signed by his majesty; and he presented the same to the house; and it was read by Mr. Speaker, and is as followeth, viz.
"George R.
His Majesty having takers into his royal consideration the eminent and signal services performed by the late Vice Admiral Lord Viscount Nelson in the course of a long series of distinguished exploits, and particularly in the glorious and decisive victory of Trafalgar, in which he unfortunately fell; and being desirous to bestow on the family of the said Lord Viscount Nelson such considerable and lasting marks of his royal favour as may correspond with the sense he entertains of services so honourable to the British Navy, and so eminently beneficial to the interests of the nation; and: for this purpose, of granting to the Earl Nelson, and the heirs male of his body, and such other persons to whom the title of Earl Nelson may descend, pursuant to the limitations of the patent whereby the said dignity is granted, a nett annuity of five thousand pounds during their respective lives; and also, of granting a sum, not exceeding one hundred and twenty thousand pounds, as a further provision for the family of the said Lord Viscount Nelson, a part whereof it his majesty's intention should be appropriated to the purchase of a house and lands, to be annexed as above to the said dignity; re- commends it to his faithful commons to consider of a proper method of enabling his majesty to grant and settle such annu-
107
[MESSRS CHALMERS AND COWIE'S PETITION.] Lord Henry Petty
moved the order of the day for the house to resolve itself into a Committee of Supply.
Mr. William Smith
then moved, that the petition of Messrs. Chalmers and Cowie, claiming a compensation for the loss they had sustained in the importation of Swedish herrings, be referred to the said committee.
Mr. Huskisson
thought the house ought to pause, before they admitted an uninvestigated claim to the amount of 35,000l. The whole of this case had been diligently examined by the late board of treasury, and his it. hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), now no more, after. taking great pains in the investigation, did not think himself justified in admitting the claim. He therefore hoped the hon. member would postpone submitting it to a committee of supply, in order to afford an opportunity for further examination. He said, that since he came into the house this day, he had put a copy of the minute of the board of treasury into the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he thought he should have time to consider of it before the motion was brought forward.
Mr. William Smith
said, that he meant to have stated the whole of the case before he made his motion in the committee. He had already put off this business three times, One of which was for the accommodation of hon. gent. himself. As to the paper which the hon. gent, put into the hands of one of the ministers, it consisted of only about twelve lines, and did not require much deliberation. However, if it were the wish both of the hon. gent. and the noble lord alluded to, that he should postpone it, he would do so, as he was aware he had little chance of success, if he had not their concurrence.
Mr. Long
said, that the lords of the treasury had considered themselves bound to resist the application, and had it been brought forward in the time of the late administration, the petitioners would have met with no encouragement.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
hoped, that as the attention of the house had not been turned to
108
Lord Henry Petty
deprecated delays in such cases as the present as they were attended with great inconvenience. He wished, however, that the matter might be deferred till Wednesday.
Mr. Huskisson
said he wished for delay, as he did not know before, that there was any intention of submitting the clam, this day, to a committee of supply.
Mr. Rose
thought the house would do well to consider the matter maturely before they decided on a subject of so much importance. Probably all of them had not read the full report of the committee upon it; but they ought to do so before they came to a determination. It was a matter for the house at large to decide upon; for he maintained, that no board of treasury would be justified in deciding upon such a claim of its own authority.
Mr. Wilberforce
though it would be better to take sufficient time to consider of the subject. He had himself been a member of the committee to which the petition was referred, and he understood that the conduct of government in the affair, would, in a great measure, depend on their report. The difficulty, he believed, which the lords of the treasury had, was in not being able of find a precedent for allowing a demand of such extent. For his own part, he thought it an extremely hard case; and though the demand of the petitioners might not be founded in strict justice, yet, in his opinion, they had a very fair claim on the liberality of parliament. The peculiar hardships in their case was, that in ten days after the government brought in a bill to legalise the trade in which they were encouraged to embark in consequence of the dispute with the Northern powers, the embargo was laid on, which occasioned their cargo of Swedish herrings to be spoiled.
Mr. Rose
said, that he did not give it as his opinion, that no compensation should be given them, but that the treasury board could not allow such a claim by its own authority.
Mr. William Smith
explained, that by the ministers consenting to have the claim submitted to a committee of supply, he did not wish to be understood as saying, that they had agreed to his object in doing so. There was a great disadvantage in putting off things of this kind from time to time, as it caused great inconvenience to the parties,
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[CONDUCT OF EARL AT. VINCENT.] Mr. Secretary Windham
hoped the hon gent. opposite to him (Mr Jeffery) would not object, on the ground of the inconvenience of postponing motions, to delay a little longer his motion respecting the noble lord. Not only his motion, but the order for the third reading of the bill for repealing the Additional Force act, stood for the next day. If he could postpone his motion on that account, it would be a personal favour to him.
Mr. Jeffery
said, he would certainly rather postpone his motion for another day, than that it should throw any impediment in the way of a measure which he conceived of such great importance as that bill; but in consenting to withdraw his motion for to-morrow, he relied on its being suffered to come on without interruption on Wednesday next.
Lord Henry Petty,
in the absence of his noble friend (lord Howick), who would have to take a material part in the debate on the subject, requested the hon. gent. would state the nature of the charges he meant to bring forward against the noble earl, to whom his motion was to apply.
Mr. Jeffery
replied, that he was resolved to pursue the course adopted by the hon. prosecutor (Mr. Whitbread) in the impeachment now pending in Westminster Hall, who gave in his charges only on the morning of the day on which the house was to proceed on them.—On being again applied to, Mr. Jeffery stated, that his charges against earl St. Vincent would be for misconduct, neglect, and mismanagement, Whilst he was first lord of the admiralty.
[PROPERTY DUTY BILL] Lord Henry Petty
moved the commitment of the Property Duty Bill.
Mr. Francis
did not mean to object to the
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Lord H. Petty
admitted the justice of many of these remarks, but the greater the difficulties of the country were, the more necessity did he find for this tax. As to economy, he assured the house, that it was always in his view, and he had frequently urged the necessity of adhering to it.
Mr. W. Smith
said, he was convinced that His majesty's ministers were fully impressed with the necessty of a strict economy. He agreed with his hon. friend on the bench below (Mr. Francis) in most of his observations, nor was it necessary for him to add a word to what he had before said on this tax. But he rather differed front the
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fortiter in modo,
in re,
Mr. Francis
explained that by the word "rigorous,' he did not mean a ruinous, but an exact collection. He was do friend to oppression or cruelty, but did wish to trust government with the discretion in matters of forbearance.
Mr. Fuller
complained that the tax was on property, not on income. He complained of the effect of it on gentlemen of landed property, who were not to be allowed for sums expended on repairs, and were also to be charged for the annual increase in the value of woods. He expressed a hope that next year an income tax would be substituted.
Mr. Tyrwhit Jones
hoped and trusted that the chancellor of the exchequer would, in the committee, be induced to relax of that firm inflexibility which he had shewn respecting the exemptions, and that the provisions of the former bill on that head would be restored.—The house then resolved itself into a committee.
Mr. Vansittart
proposed, that in going through the clauses, the marginal abstracts should be read, and any clause to which any gentlemen wished to propose an amendment might be read at length.
Sir Robert Buxton
objected to the first clause. He said he never could perceive the reason why farmers were to be taxed in a different Manner from other classes of the community. Whether the tax were upon property or income, he thought their profits should be estimated in the same way as other traders.
Mr. Vansittart
said, the reason of the difference was, that, from the great number of farmers, and the imperfect manner most of them kept their accounts, it would be difficult, if not impossible, to judge of their profits, but by an average. The average was not taken high, when it reckoned for profits only a starch equal to three fourths of the rent paid. There were few farmers indeed who cleared so little.
Mr. Holt Leigh
contended, that in a year when the farmer might have met casualties, or made no profits, it was unfair that he should be rated on an average.
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Mr. Vansittart
replied, that a productive year Would compensate for that loss, and that When the average was low it was a fair mode of computation.
Mr. Fuller
wished to know, why the English farmer should pay 1s. 6d. in the pound on his rent, while the Scotch farmer paid but a shilling.
Mr. Vansittart
answered, that the reason was, that the rent of the Scotch farmer was higher, as he was not burdened with tythes, or poor-rates, and therefore, it would not be fair to take the same proportion of those different rents as the amount to be paid to the tax.
Mr. Holt Leigh
observed, that it was very hard that a farmer, who with a capital of three hundred pounds, rented a farm of 2001. per annum, should pay the tax when the same amount of Capital engaged in any trade, would be exempt.
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that the hon. gent. seemed to think that the tax affected capital, whereas it was a tax upon profits, and if the profits were made upon 300l. capital in farming, itwas but just they should pay it—The clause was then agreed to.
Mr. Ker
asked, whether Irish gentlemen, Who resided six months in England, were to pay for the whole year?
Mr. Vansittart
said, they certainly were, because no property in Ireland was made chargeable.
Mr. S. Stanhope
objected to this task as impracticable. How was one to judge who was liable? It was a question whether servants on board wages, who would thus receive above 50l. a year, were not liable, while servants who were not on board wages, but who received larger wages otherwise were not liable.—After a long conversation,
Mr. Vansittart
promised, that the various bearings of the clause, and the hints thrown out by the gentlemen who spoke on it, should be considered.
Mr. Rabson
wished to know how the owners of the houses were to know who were liable? He had been applied to that morning by three persons from the country, Who had acted as commissioners, and they begged him to obtain them all the information in his power on that head; for they did not understand by the act who were liable. He wished to know, whether clerks in
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Mr. Tyrwhit Jones
gave notice, that he meant to propose a clause imposing a penalty on assessors making vexatious sur-charges.
Sir Robert Buxton
after making some observations on that part of the bill which allowed a deduction of two per cent. to landlords who paid for the repair of the houses they let out, said, he conceived that this deduction would not cover their expenses, and that it was hard the landed interest should be subject to a higher tax than others. He therefore offered a clause to the consideration of the committee, the purport of which was, that eight per cent. should be deducted from the tax paid by the landlord for all dwelling-houses kept in repair by him, and five per cent. for all farmhouses.
Lord Henry Petty
said, that the land tax which formerly existed, came much higher on the land-holder than this; and as landed property was now only taxed in common with all kinds Of income he could never agree to this clause.—A conversation then took place between Mr. S. Stanhope, Mr. T. Jones, Mr. Bastard, and Mr. Wilberforce, who supported the clause, and Mr. Vansittart, and others, who opposed it. The question was at length called for, and the committee divided, when there appeared; For the clause, 51: against it, 129: majority, 78.
Mr. Francis
agreeably to his former intimation, proposed that the profits arising from the interest upon exchequer bills, and every other species of floating public debt, should be subjected to the tax, and liable to the same stoppages on the payment of those bills, or the interest thereon at the
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Lord Henry Petty
after fully admitting the fairness of the principle, observed, that the state derived the proposed advantage in another mode, though not in the precise form suggested by the hon. gent.; for a great part of the property in exchequer bills being in the hands of the directors of the bank of England, and of private bankers and reputable merchants, who, it was to be presumed, would make an honest and correct return of their aggregate profits in the year, would, of course, return the interest on those bills as a part of their income. The tax would operate this way in a manner less vexatious, than in the ordinary mode of deducting from the interest upon the bills, as paid off.—It was, however, argued in reply, by Mr. Francis, Mr. W. Smith, and some other members, that the more regular way, and the best security against evasion, would be the mode adopted in the case of all other funds; and that while no disadvantage whatever could arise to the fair holder of floating funds from the proposed arrangement, the noble lord and the house were bound to take the best security in their power on behalf of the public, for the regular payment of the tax, and for the prevention of all attempts to evade it.
Lord Henry petty
thought the arguments of those hon. members entitled to every degree of respect and deference, and requested to have time for further consideration, not doubting that he should be induced to adopt them. The subject was therefore postponed to a future stage of the bill.
Mr. Francis
saw no reason why this exemption should exist, or why the thirteen millions belonging to foreigners in the British Funds, should not be as heavily taxed as the property of the natives.
Mr. Secretary Fox
was astonished at the opinion expressed by the hon. gent. on this subject. For his part, he should consider an act, such as that which he recommended, a shameful confiscation. The bill under the consideration of the committee was not for taxing foreign, but British subjects. So unjust did he think such a measure, it
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Mr. Francis
could not conceive why any man, who placed his property in the British Funds, ought not to pay for the security he received in common with the other creditors of the state.
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
observed, that the public faith had never been staked more to foreigners than to any others possessed of funded property, and therefore he did not see why foreigners should be exempt. The contract was never originally made with foreigners; they came into possession of funded property by purchase. As well might it be contended that the property of a foreigner who gained an income by trade in this country, should be exempt from the tax, as that his funded property should be exempt.
Lord Henry Petty
concurred intirely with his rt. hon. friend (Mr. Fox).
Mr. W. Smith
confessed there was much plausibility in the arguments urged against including the property of foreigners in the tax, but was still of opinion, that in justice and equity it might be taxed.—Mr. Ker and sir C. Price, spoke nearly to the same effect; but after Mr. Secretary Fox's explanation, the objections seemed to be given up. Mr.
Vansittart
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 13.
[Minutes]
The house proceeded, as usual, to Westminster Hall. They returned soon after three, when an order was made to proceed further on the trial of lord viscount Melville to-morrow and a message was sent to the House of Commons to acquaint them therewith.—The order of the day on the Slave Importation Restriction bill was discharged, on the motion of the duke of Clarence and renewed for Friday.—The American Intercourse bill was read a third time and passed, and a message sent to the House of Commons to acquaint them therewith.—Strangers were for a short time excluded whilst the house discussed some matter of privilege. After our re-admission the earl of Westmoreland presented a petition from certain Merchants and traders of Manchester against the Slave Importation
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[PROTEST AGAINST THE AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.]
A bill intitled "An Act for enabling his majesty in council, to permit the Importation and Exportation into and from his majesty's territories in the West-Indies, and Continent of South America, of certain Goods and Commodities in Neutral Ships in time of War. Dissent.—1st, Because no proof whatever has been adduced to show either the expediency or necessity of a measure which facilitates and systematically establishes the suspension of our Navigation and Colonial Laws; and thereby sacrifices to Foreigners, the Supply Trade of the British West India Settlements, to which the United Kingdom and its dependencies are rightfully entitled in return for the monopoly they afford at their own market to the produce of those Settlements, 2dly, Because the bill will transfer responsibility from the West India Governors to his majesty's ministers at home; that is, it will take responsibility from those who alone can be judges of the necessity, and will give it to his majesty's ministers at a great distance, who cannot possibily have any information in due time to enable them to act on emergency; therefore the power of suspending the laws must be ultimately delegated to the persons from whom the responsibility will be removed, to persons who actually derive great emolument from the frequency of the abuse. 3dly, Because it will ultimately render our West India settlements dependent on the American States. 4thly, Because the British Colonies in North America will be ruined, or greatly prejudiced, in consequence of the admission of foreign American Shipping to the Supply Trade to the British West Indies. 5thly, Because Ireland in particular will be dependent on the discretion or caprice of Ministers or Governors for the Provision trade to the West Indies. 6thly, Because, through the relaxations and suspensions of the navigation-laws, our carrying trade and commerce are transferred to foreigners, the value of British shipping greatly depreciated, and the increase of foreign shipping employed in our trade, compared with the increase of British shipping being in the proportion of 12 to 1, ship-building is so alarmingly discouraged in this kingdom, that only two ships for the merchant service have been built in the
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(Signed) SHEFFIELD
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, May 13
[MINUTES.] Mr. Fellowes
brought up a Report from the Committee to examine into the Returns of the Bishops under the Clergy Residence act, and mentioned that it was his intention to proceed in the same manner every year in order to ascertain how far the Act had been efficient.—A message from the lords announced their intention of proceeding in the trial of lord Melville to-morrow, and their having passed a bill to permit the King in Council to allow certain goods to be exported from and imported into the West India Colonies in neutral vessels during the war, to which they desired the concurrence of the house—Mr. Hurst presented Petitions from the Lawyers, Solicitors, and Attorneys practising in the Marshelsea Court, against the Small Debt Court Act. Ordered to lie on the Table. Mr. Owen presented Accounts from the East India Company, pursuant to an order
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[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]—Mr. Secretary Windham
moved the order of the day for the third reading of the Additional Force Repeal bill. On the question being put,
Sir J. Pulteney rose
and said, he did not mean to detain the house, but wished to offer a few observations on the mode of proceeding that had been followed, and the line of argument that had been pursued through
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General Loftus
had voted for the Additional Force act, in the hope that it would have been effectual. If the parishes had raised the men, he was sure the act would have been highly beneficial, for local knowledge and personal connection would have prevented desertion. But the parish officers, instead of raising the men themselves, raised them by the; intervention of
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Lord De Blaquiere
said a few words in support of the enlistment for term for years.
Mr. Yorke
said, he rose once more to oppose the repeal of this bill, and to express some degree of astonishment at that sort of dignified and determined silence with which the rt. hon. gent. had treated every endeavour to elicit from him some further, and more detailed explanation, of the measure which he proposed to substitute in place of this bill, which he now called upon the house to repeal, without condescending to shew them, by any explanation or argument, that in such terrible times as the present could justify them in abandoning a bill, which, though not so productive as it was expected to be by the rt. hon. gent. Who introduced it, was yet productive to a degree far beyond what he (Mr. Yorke) could have supposed. It was surely but reasonable, before the independent members of that house could be expected by any set of ministers to abandon a bill, by the operation of which, 10,000 recruits a year were superadded to the production of the ordinary recruiting service, which was 12,000 men per annum, that some candid explanation should be given of the plan to the substituted in its place, and the merits of that plan fairly submitted to some discussion, in order that the house might be enabled to form an estimate of the value of that which they were to offer in lieu of that which they abandoned, and of which they already knew the value from experience. But the rt. hon. gent. notwithstanding all the questions put to him, all the solicitation by which he was repeatedly urged to come to some discussion on his plan, preserved the most inexorable taciturnity, and would not deign to enter into any further explanation of a measure, which went to involve the very existence of the country, the discussion of which should of absolute necessity precede any repeal of the present measure. The rt. hon. gent. then proceeded, at considerable length, to recapitulate many of his former objections against the plan proposed by the rt. hon. secretary, which, so far from being digressive or irregular, he considered as intimately connected with, and perfectly relevant to, the subject now before the house. It was obvious already, from returns before the house, that the annual decrease of the army by casualties was 15,000 men, and that the supply by recruits, under the ordinary system, was 12,000 men, and by the bill now in question
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Colonel Eyre
considered the bill for the repeal of the Additional Force act not as part of the right hon. gent's. plan, but as making way for it. When this impediment was removed the plan would come after. The Additional Force act was a bad measure, and therefore, it was right to get rid of it. This he said, considering it without reference to any thing else. If it had not produced the men by the exertions of the parish officers, but by a competition which checked the ordinary recruiting, the mischief was evident. The act is was said, had become operative from the time that it had been explained by the inspecting field officers. He disliked this explanation. These were not the constitutional explainers but the deputy lieutenants. They were better explainers to the crimps than to the parish officers, and therefore the men were not had for less than 26 guineas. If a reduction was not made in this, the country would not have less than 5 million to expend in bounties. It was not only a more efficient system that was necessary, but a more economical one. The improvement of the condition of the soldier would afford great inducements to enter into the service. The limitation of the term would also attract greater numbers, and better men. These things would tend to im-
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Mr. Secretary Windham
did not feel himself called upon to enter at length into the arguments which were now brought forward: but as a right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke) had seemed to consider his silence as in some degree contumelious to the house, he must say that there could be no contumely in not replying to arguments which did not properly belong to the subject of debate. He did not mean to say, that there was any impropriety in the right hon. gentlemen's introducing those topics, or that they ought not to have been introduced, but he must complain that they dwelt exclusively upon topics that had a very distant connexion with the subject, and hardly said a word upon the subject itself. Surely the nature of the bill that was to be repealed, was a consideration as material as any topic that could be connected with it. He had expected a different line of argument when the noble lord (Castlereagh) moved for such an immense mass of papers; but instead of that, he was much astonished at hearing that noble lord himself afterwards say, "that he gave little weight to arguments that were drawn from papers." The argument from the papers must have been much against the noble lord before he could make such a declaration. It reminded him of the very bad symptom in the case of Sir Roger de Coverly, when he "lost his roast beef appetite;" and when the noble lord could speak with contempt of papers and details, it was pretty evident the arguments they afforded were much against him. Not being willing, however, to imitate the example of the gentlemen opposite on this subject, he would confine himself to the consideration of the act, the repeal of which was now before the house. For a year after it had passed, nothing was heard of it; not only in the town but in the country. Every body was asking what had become of it. At last it was considered dead. Then came the famous letter from lord Hawkesbury, and, as appeared by the first volume of papers on the table, a kind of coroner's inquest sat on the act. As a it seemed to be the fashion in modern novels, to begin instead of ending with a marriage, by way of giving a new turn and astonishing their readers, so in the details in these papers, they commenced with the death of the hero of them. He should be very unwilling to disobey the admonition "de mortu's nil, nisi "bonum," but the fact was that he was not
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"We shall lead more happy lives,
By getting rid of brats and wives,
That scold and brawl, both night and day,
Over the
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Mr. Perceval
said, he could not let this subject pass without making some farther observations upon it, in addition to those which fell from him on a former night. And first, with respect to the clause in the bill which the right hon. gent. had just alluded to, it was an at that would be a disgrace to the parliament, and weaken the legislative authority. Whether this clause was looked at retrospectively or prospectively, it was most glaringly unjust. It was neither more nor less than telling the subjects of the country that they had always a means of retreat, by which they could escape in case of disobedience to the laws. His majesty's ministers, however, blinded by their own success, and infatuated by the sweets of their situation, persisted in hurrying this measure through the house. And here he could not help observing on the triumphant manner in which the present ministers acted, with respect to this bill: they thought it a high honour to triumph over the measure of that great man, now no more, being well aware that they never could have done it in his
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Mr. Windham,
in explanation said, he never had expressed a wish totally to abolish the ballot. He did state, that in the uncertainty of human affairs, the country might again be driven to the necessity of resorting
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Mr. Sheridan
said, he did not consider these constant insinuations of gentlemen on the opposite side of the house, wishing to triumph over the measures or memory of a great man, who was now no more, as being at all justified by any part of their conduct. He said, he had listened with great attention to the entertaining speech of the hon. and learned gentleman opposite him, who had never once attempted to defend the Additional Force act, which was now about to be repealed; on the contrary, the whole of his pleasantry went against that very measure. He could not help admiring the military spirit that seemed to prevail among gentlemen on the other side of the house. This was now the fourth debate which the house had had upon this bill. In the first, it seemed as if there had been a council held among the opposers of it, and that it had been resolved, "Let us attack all the measures that have been proposed or suggested, but let no man say a word about the bill." In that debate they therefore cautiously abstained from meddling with the bill itself. The second debate was began by a military general, certainly of very high consideration (sir James Pulteney). That general, however, entirely abstained from the military view of the question, and confined himself to its civil operation. In the third debate, both the civil and military questions were declined, and the argument was principally about the clause of refunding, which was the chief subject of the right hon. gent's argument upon the present occasion. If the gentlemen on the other side of the house had been twenty months before they could understand their own bill, they were not to triumph much even if they should find any omission in the present. He did not think it quite decent of the hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Perceval) to say, that his rt. Hon. friend had not read the bill that he proposed to repeal: since he had made that assertion, he thought himself warranted in saying, that the Additional Force bill had been drawn up in a manner so confused and unintelligible, that he could not but consider the learned gentleman himself as the framer of it; and from the little knowledge he discovered of that bill, he was only the more confirmed in his opinion. The hon. and learned gentleman in ridiculing another system said, that some men had such an
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Mr. Yorke
said, he thought it was necessary that the bill should specifically renew the provision of the Additional Force act, that the men raised by it were not to be sent out of the kingdom.
Mr. Perceval
said, that as by this bill both the Army of Reserve and the Additional Force acts were repealed, the greatest injustice would be done, if the same provision as those acts made for the wives and families of the men, was not retained in the bill.—A short conversation then ensued, in which Mr. Windham and Mr. Fox urged, that the amendments proposed would unne-
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Mr. W. Smith
thought there was much weight in the amendments, and that it would be preferable to delay the bill a short time, in order to make it complete, than to pass another on purpose to supply an omission.
Mr. Perceval
said, that the injustice which would result from the omission was so apparent, that the amendments would certainly be made in the house of lords; the consequence of which would be, as they related to the dispensation of money, that the bill would be altogether rejected on its return to this house.—After the Speaker had explained away a doubt of Mr. Fox's as to the forms permitting the bill to stand over, Mr. Secretary Windham withdrew his motion, that the bill do pass, and the bill stands over for to-morrow, in order to have the amendments added.
Mr. Yorke
said, he had before put a question to the right hon. secretary (Mr. Windham) as to the time when he would bring forward the measures which the country had been for some time expecting? As neither courtesy, nor a sense of duty on the part of the rt. hon. secretary had induced him to return an answer, he (Mr. Yorke) repeated the question.
Mr. Windham
replied, that he did not know that he was bound to answer the interrogatories of the right hon gent., but he would say, if a day had been open which he could have fixed upon for the purpose of bringing those measures before the house, the right hon. gent's. question would have been unnecessary. He had already said, that what he had to submit was ready; and he would not add, that a day would soon be mentioned for the purpose.
Mr. Yorke
replied, that he had asked the question as a matter of courtesy. He did not know whether, after the bills were ordered, it was not in the power of any member to move that they be brought in forthwith.
Mr. Windham
observed, that if so, the right hon. gent. might make a motion on the subject, but could not compel him to answer his question.
[NELSON GRANT.]—
On the motion of lord Henry Petty, the house then went into a committee to consider his majesty's message of yesterday, lord viscount Howick in the chair.
Lord Henry Petty
then rose and said that, in the terms of his majesty's most gracious
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Mr. Rose
wished to know whether in the 120,000 l. was included any provision for other members of the noble lord's family, or whether any further provision for them was intended.
Lord Henry Petty
replied, that 90,000l. were to be laid out in the purchase of a mansion and lands, to be annexed to the title; that 10,000l. were to be given to earl Nelson to make such reparations or improvements therein as he should deem ne-
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Mr. Rose
expressed great satisfaction at the statement of the noble lord, because he knew that nothing had been so near the heart of the noble person now no more, as some provision for those sisters.
Mr. Francis
rose and said: On the merits and services of the great admiral, whom we have lost, there can be but one sentiment, of united admiration and gratitude, in this house and in this country; and in that sentiment no man can participate more heartily and sincerely than I do. Yet even this feeling, just as it is, and powerful as it ought to be, must in some reasonable degree be subject to the regulation of other principles in particular circumstances. We live in times of great public services, and great rewards. But we ought not to forget that the times we live in have another character, which indicates other duties; I mean the difficulties and distresses, that belong to our situation. Even in the distribution of the best deserved liberality of parliament, we ought not to forget that the present means of the country are not quite equal to all the claims, which great services may have on the public gratitude. On this principle, painful as it is to me, I cannot refrain from expressing a doubt, whether one part of the proposed vote, I mean the sum of 120,000, (in addition to the annuity of 5000l. a year,) may not be more, not than is due to the merit of lord Nelson; far from it, but than can fairly be expected in circumstances, which demand economy from us, even in the exercise of our virtues. The rewards given to the earl of Chatham, fell far short of this grant. Those given in the first instance to John Duke of Marlborough, who placed England at the head of Europe, I believe, did not exceed it. If, happily for his country, the noble admiral had lived to enjoy these proofs of its gratitude; or, if he had left children to represent his person, and to transmit his memory, with all its honours, to an illustrious lineage directly descended from him, I should never have thought of uttering one word, but in support of the question. All my doubt is, whether the claim on the nation stands exactly on the same footing in the person of a collateral relation, as it would have done, if it had been possible to preserve the reward of his services, united with his name, in direct descent to his own offspring, and to their posterity.
Mr. Rose
stated that Blenheim had cost the country 540,000l.
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Gen. Tarleton
had always been an admirer of the military glory of the duke of Marlborough, but his victories had not been achieved by English armies exclusively. Lord Nelson, on the contrary, had conquered with British fleets. Never had triumphs been more completely English than those acquired by him.
Mr. Wilberforce
complimented his hon. friend (Mr. Francis), for his upright, manly, and conscientious declaration of the sentiments which he had expressed; such conduct as that of the hon. gent. on a subject of so much delicacy, he conceived to be a victory of principle over personal feeling, and as such it met with his highest approbation. That hon. gent., however, should consider that the value of money was now considerably altered, and that the sum proposed to be given, would not make the family of the hero, whose high merits we meant to commemorate and reward, by any means too affluent for the situation which they were to hold in society. It was, in fact, no more than what he thought they were entitled to from the country; and, as an incitement to heroic actions in future, he suggested that the building to be erected for the Nelson family, should be placed in such a situation as to be conspicuous to our seamen on their approach to England, or on their setting sail, perhaps, in quest of an enemy. When they beheld such a testimony of the gratitude of the country, it could not fail to inspire them with an ardent desire to imitate his glorious example.
Lord Henry Petty
agreed in the suggestion of the right hon. gent. The idea had occurred to himself, and the trustees, in whom the money was to be vested, would, he was sure, pay every attention to it.—The Resolutions were then agreed to, and the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 14.
[Minutes]
The house proceeded, as usual, to Westminster-hall, and returned about tour, when an order was made to proceed further on the Trial of lord viscount Melville the next day, and a message was sent to the commons to acquaint them therewith.
[NELSON GRANT]
Earl Spencer, in the absence of his noble friend lord Grenville, moved the order of the day for taking his majesty's message into consideration, relative to a provision for the family
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nem. diss.
[INSOLVENT DEBTORS' BILL] Lord Holland
the order of the day for their lordships going into a committee of the whole house on this bill. On the order being read,
Lord Ellenborough
rose and said, that, consistently with his own conviction of the mischievous consequences of such acts, he could not suffer the present bill to go into a committee, without suggesting some observations by the way of objection to the measure. It was with reluctance that he opposed any measure, apparently founded on principles of humanity; but, in considering the general interests of society, and particularly in this commercial country, and viewing impartially the claims of creditor as well as debtor, a sense of duty operated, in this instance, in a superior degree upon his mind. It was incredible how injurious the frequent repetition of Insolvent acts was to the course of fair trade. The professed principle upon which the bill, in the first instance, proceeded, was highly objectionable, namely, that the gaols were overloaded with prisoners. It was his opinion, that persons threw themselves into prison in order to take the benefit of an insolvent act; and, therefore, that such an act, in relieving such a description of persons, produced great injustice. With a view of accurately ascertaining this, he had, some time since, moved for an account of such persons as had been committed to prison previous to and since the first day of Michaelmas term last. From the returns which had been made, in pursuance of his motion, and, which were now lying upon their lordships' table, it appeared; that, out of 204 persons confined in Newgate, 127 had been committed since the first day of Michaelmas term: in the prison of Ludgate, out of 23 persons, 16 had been committed during the same period:
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The Duke of Norfolk
said that he was equally an enemy to the whole code of laws relative to imprisonment for debts, and to the frequency of these acts; but, he still contended for the propriety of the bill going into a committee. There were many creditors who gave credit with such a degree of facility, as to deserve suffering, rather than commiseration. That numbers of those who had petitioned might have thrown themselves into prison, may be true; but then it was as certain, that many of them had been thrown in by their creditors: their situation should, therefore, be discriminated from that of the fraudulent debtors. At all events, he would recommend to the house to go into a committee, where provisions might be added to satisfy the objections of the lords, and where a clause might be introduced, if their lordships thought necessary, making the condition of the discharge an entrance into his majesty's land or sea forces.
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Lord Holland
called the attention of their lordships to the conversation which had taken place on the introduction of some petitions by him: he had then considered it as the opinion of their lordships, at least of some of the most distinguished members of the house, that some bill of temporary relief should be immediately introduced; the public exigencies preventing a revision of the whole code between debtor and creditor. His noble friend below him (lord Moira), who, much to his honour, had so frequently come forward on occasions of the kind, had stated that, from the pressure of his official avocations, he could not, with propriety, undertake to bring forward, this session, any specific measure tending to an amelioration of those laws, the severity of which were, by the most eminent characters, almost universally admitted; but, that as he conceived that the sufferings of the unfortunate, imprisoned debtors should not be prolonged, he would give his support to any act of temporary relief introduced in the interval. Under these impressions, he had the honour of submitting the present bill to their lordships' consideration. This bill he had framed in the most guarded manner, for the specific purpose of precluding the slightest opposition. It was drawn up according to preceding bills generally; but care was taken that no novel proposition should obtain in it, especially in favour of the debtor. Indeed, he was free to confess, that it was far from answering all those purposes which might be expected even from a limited measure of this kind, and was, by no means, as comprehensive as the indulgence of his own feelings and opinions on the subject would have induced him to have brought forward. He was, therefore, not a little surprised, to find petitions presented to their lordships to prevent its adoption. It was his wish, as well as that of the learned and noble lord (Ellenborough), to look to the interest of the creditor as well as to the interest of the debtor. In cases of this kind it was the duty of their lordships to consider the situation of both. In his mind every consideration of humanity demanded some such measure as the present. Relative to the increased frequency of such acts, he must affirm, that the noble and learned lord (Ellenborough) had assumed, as a fact, what the journals of the house would prove to be incorrect. There, he would find that, in the early part of the present
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Lord Eldon
declared, that if any person conceived him hostile to the prayer of the petition of the unfortunate debtor, he was much Mistaken in the individual who then had the honour to address their lordships. On the contrary, he had sometimes supported, and sometimes opposed measures of this kind, according to circumstances, in both houses of parliament. On one occasion he had introduced a bill of a similar nature, whilst a member of the other house; but acquired experience had convinced him of their injurious tendency and effects. He agreed in the necessity of some permanent measure on the subject, and thought the remaining time of some professional man, who had retired from the active duties of the profession, could not be better employed, than in studying the principles and the present regulations respecting debtor and creditor; and devising some certain and permanent system of procedure. One great consideration was, that some general rule should be adopted, in order that the creditor may know what, in his dealings, with respect to giving credit, he had really to depend upon. When he looked at the
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The Earl of Moira
said, it must be in the recollection of their lordships, that he had, on all occasions, uniformly exerted his humble talents to procure some general legislative provision which would obviate the necessity of recurring, as a temporary or partial remedy, to those measures, of the effects of which the noble and learned lords so much complained. He felt all their objections to acts of insolvency; but, at the same time, he was of opinion, that justice and humanity required the adoption of the one now proposed. His noble friend behind him (Holland) had correctly stated the circumstances which gave rise to the present measure; but, at that period, he was not aware that his official avocations would have allowed so much leisure as he had found they did, otherwise he would, most certainly, have brought forward his promised measure; which the advanced state of the session alone prevented him from immediately submitting to the attention of their lordships. He declared his perfect acquiescence in what had fallen from the noble and learned lord (Eldon) as to the hardship of the unfortunate bankrupt, who, having literally subscribed to the provisions of that code, and fully surrendered the whole of his effects, was still rendered subject to the malignity of an irritated and vindictive creditor. But, if there was one argument stronger than another in support of the measure introduced by his noble friend (Holland), it was the case so stated by that learned lord (Eldon). Many unfortunate men, so circumstanced, were to be found in the various prisons of the united kingdom; and, therefore, the necessity existed of immediately relieving them by the direct interference of the legislature. There was also another observation of that noble and learned lord (Eldon), which immediately applied to and bore on the bill before their lordships. That learned lord had asserted, that, by the frequent operation of such acts, the distresses and embarrassments of creditors was so augmented, that, in many cases, they were unfortunately forced to succeed to those very prisons so lately vacated by their debtors. Here, then, was another undeniable proof of the necessity of a temporary measure of relief. Men, admitted to be unfortunate, were actually suffering. Ought, then, the means of relief to be postponed for another session? Such delay would, in his opinion, be an act re-
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Lord Ellenborough
in explanation, said, that one reason why he objected to the bill was, because it contained no such principle of discrimination as had been alluded to by the noble lord (Moira); but that it went to set all at liberty, to, discharge the whole in the gross. He was convinced, from the acknowledged liberality of British traders, that they would be found, on all occasions, ready to indulge their debtors in the most liberal manner possible; and he would take upon him to say, that, there, was scarcely an instance where, if they perceived any inclination on the part of the debtor to act justly, to the extent of his ability, they were not always anxious to release him. He must impress upon their lordships' mind that if this bill; should pass into a law, the prisoners would be for ever discharged, as to their persons, without any satisfaction to their injured creditors. This was a hardship which tended to the destruction of all trade and credit, as was fully admitted by the preamble of the bill itself.—The question was then put, and the house divided; For the commitment 10; Against it 5; Majority: 5. The house accordingly resolved itself into a committee,
proformâ
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, May 14.
[Minutes.]
A message from the lords announced their lordships' intention of proceeding with the trial of lord Melville, at 10 o'clock to-morrow, in Westminster Hall.—On the motion of the Secretary at War, the Mutiny bill passed through a committee.— Lord Howick brought up the Report of the committee of Supply, the resolutions of which, for a provision to the family of the late lord Nelson, were read and agreed to, and leave given to bring in a bill in pursuance of the same.—Sir J. Newport brought up the Irish Stamp Duty bill, the Irish Loan bill, and the Irish Tea Duty bill, all which were read a first time.
[CONDUCT OF EARL ST. VINCENT.] Mr. Jeffery
and addressed the house as follows:—Mr. Speaker, I now rise, pursuant to my notice, to call the attention
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RESOLVED
;—1. That it appears to this House that from the 18th Feb. 1801. to the 15th May 1804, the right hon. the earl of St. Vincent presided at the board of admiralty.—2. That it is the duty of the board of admiralty to maintain and support the royal navy in a complete and efficient state.—3. That 42 ships of the line and 45 frigates, had been launched between 1783 and 1792; of which number, 30 of the line-of-battle ships, and 40 of the frigates, had been built in the merchants' yards.—4. That from Jan. 1793, to Feb. 1801, there were 18 ships of the line, and 46 frigates built; 43 ships of the line, and 66 frigates, captured from the enemy; 5 ships of the line, and 9 frigates purchased; making in all, 66 ships of the line, and 121 frigates added to the navy in a period of 8 years; being on an average, an annual addition of 8¼ sail of the line, and of 15 frigates.—5. That from Jan. 1793, to Feb. 1801, 21 ships of the line, and 53 frigates were by various casualties taken from the navy.—6. That there had been maintained at sea, upon the average of 8 years, prior to Feb. 1801, 101 sail of the line, and 146 frigates, exclusive of Harbour duty ships.—7. That on the 18th Feb. 1801, when the earl of St. Vincent came into office, there were building, 15 sail of the line; 6 in the king's, and 9 in the merchants' yards; and 11 frigates; 4 in the king's, and 7 in the merchants' yards.—8. That between the 18th Feb. 1801, and the 15th May 1804, there were launched 7 sail of the line, and 8 frigates from the merchants' yards; and 3 sail of the line, and 4 frigates from the king's yards; and that there were captured in the same period, 4 sail of the line and 10 frigates; and that none were purchased: so that the total addition to the navy in this period of 3 years and 3 months, was only 14 sail of the line and 32 frigates; making an average of not more than 4⅓sail of the line, and 7 frigates per annum. — 9. That of the 3 line-of-battle ships launched in the king's yards within the said period of 3 years and 3 months, one of them was launched in June, and one in Oct. 1801; and that only one line-of-battle ship was launched from the king's yards, between the 22d Oct. 1801, and 15th May
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Mr. Dent
rose to second the motion, but without pledging himself to support the object of the hon. member. He merely wished that the question should be put, in order to give the house an option of going into, or declining the discussion. But he was convinced, if the house should think proper to grant the committee, that the conduct of the noble earl would stand fully vindicated, to the conviction of every member of that house.
The Speaker
thought it his duty to call the attention of the house to a subject involving the maintenance of its own order
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Lord Howick
said that it was not his purpose, at that moment, to go at length into any thing like a detailed discussion; but as the hon. gent. had moved to refer all those papers upon the table to a committee of the whole house, he wished to know if the hon. member proposed to do any more in the committee than merely to propose his resolutions. The noble lord thought it would have been a more candid mode of proceeding if the hon. member had proposed the committee in the first instance.
Mr. Jeffery
professed himself but little acquainted with the forms of the house; and having already discharged, as he thought, his duty, was willing to submit to any mode of proceeding the house might think it proper to adopt. Having stated the charges he thought it his duty to make, he was ready to be advised by the house as to the best mode of proceeding for giving them effect.
Lord Howick
replied, that it was rather extraordinary the hon. gent., if he was so ignorant of the proper order of parliamentary proceedings, did not consult with somebody who could have directed him. The honourable gentleman, however, had availed himself of the opportunity of making a long speech, in crimination of the character of a noble earl, in the hope that at all events his object would be answered by the publication of this speech, if no one should oppose the motion, so that his speech might go forth in print, unrefuted in the first instance. He would therefore advise his honourable friends, who meant to vindicate the character and conduct of the earl of St. Vincent, to proceed in the debate on the present question.
Mr. Jeffery
said, that if that was the wish of the noble lord, he should be well pleased to go immediately into the discussion.—The question being then put,
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Admiral Markham
rose, and, in offering himself to the notice of the house, for the purpose of refuting a series of charges,, which he conceived to be the most unfounded that ever were offered to any house of parliament, he could have wished the task had fallen into abler hands than his own. He must also lament that he was not so well prepared with an arranged series of written documents as the hon. gent., to read in defence of the noble lord whose cause it was now his task to vindicate. But these were not the only difficulties with which he had to contend. Through the whole course of this proceeding, the hon. gent. had most studiously avoided giving the slightest hint as to what direction his charges would take; for if the hon. gent. had given any explanation upon that head, it would not have been necessary for him to have troubled the house with moving such a number of papers, or impressing upon their consideration so voluminous a mass of documents, as the proofs necessary to his purpose would have lain in so much narrower a compass. It was not until 1? o'clock that day that he had read the heads of those charges that night adduced by the hon. member, in a speech of such unusual length; and pressed as he was by the avocations of his official duty, from nine every morning till six in the afternoon, he had not much time to prepare himself for an answer to the hon. gent. Trusting, however, to the indulgence of the house, he would proceed, as well as he could, in reply to the charges which had been urged against his noble friend. The first point adverted to by the hon. member related to ship-building; and he stated that the number of ships of the line added to the navy, from Jan. 1793 to 1801, including captures, was 66 ships; but conceiving it an unfair statement to include captured ships under the head of building, he must beg to dismiss them from the credit of the account, as he could see no possible connection it could have with the number of ships built in the merchants' yards, or any thing to do with a charge against that noble lord in the performance of his official duty. Dismissing these, then, from the account, the number of ships of the line built in the 8 years preceding lord St. Vincent's administration would be 24; and comparing with that the period of that noble lord's administration, from his accession to office in March 1801, to his departure in May 1804, the total number was ten in a period of little better than 3
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Mr. Jeffery
called the hon. admiral to order, as he digressed from the point before the house, by adverting to circumstances which had happened, perhaps, 20 years before the subject of the present charge arose.
Lord Howick
spoke to order. He was surprised, after the speech the hon. gent. had made, and the subsequent motion to refer the papers to a committee, that he should interrupt the hon. admiral, who argued fairly from the papers before the house. One of the charges was, for not repairing ships in the merchants' yards, and his hon. friend was only bringing instances to prove the ill effects of that practice.
Admiral Markham
proceeded to shew, from a variety of examples, the enormous prices charged at the merchants' yards, upon no less than 18 sail of ships, repaired in ten years from 1782 to 1792, as a fair criterion to judge of the policy of employing them. In one ship the charge for repairs was 12,392
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Lord Garlies
said, that, in his opinion, the present discussion centered in one point, namely, whether every thing connected with the navy could have been done the king's yards, or whether it might have been sometimes necessary to have recourse to the merchants' yards. Considering this as the principal point before the house, he felt himself called upon to give his vote against the motion of the hon. gent. Lord St. Vincent had thought that the king's yards were sufficient for supporting the navy. This was, however, merely a matter of opinion; and no blame could attach to the noble lord on that account, who, he was confident, had uniformly acted from the purest motives. He himself had thought, however, that the noble lord had carried his opinion too far; and he was disposed to believe, that in time of war it would be necessary to have recourse, to a certain extent at least, to the merchants' yards. Respecting the repairs which ships had undergone in these yards, it was indeed sometimes found that they exceeded the prime cost. But this was often found to take place in repairing an old house as well as an old ship; and it was generally an object with ship-builders to obtain the repairing of those ships which they built, as they thus got rid of parts of their timber that were not so fit for the purposes of building. They therefore undertook to build ships at a cheaper rate, on stipulating that they should also be employed in repairing them. With respect to several ships which he knew to have come from the merchants' yards, he must confess that they were very improper for his majesty's service. This was particularly the case with the Ajax, which he had commanded; and there were seve-
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Lord Howick
said, he could not agree with the noble lord who spoke last, that such a variety of charges and such extensive matters as were brought forward on this occasion, could be centered in one point; and whether they were or not, they could not be made the foundation of a charge that the noble lord, to whom his country was indebted for having raised her naval glory to so high a pitch, would intentionally work her ruin. Surely the hon. gent. who made these charges, could not believe any such thing. Were it not for the obligation he felt himself under to vindicate the character of the noble admial, he should have felt himself bound,
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Mr. Dent
said, he was happy he had afforded the noble lord an opportunity of entering upon so ample a discussion and explanation of this subject as he had done, which he could not have indulged in if the motion had riot been seconded.
Mr. Bastard
thought it a duty to state to the house what he knew concerning a matter in which the character of earl St. Vincent was involved. It was, in his opinion, a consideration for the house, that the noble earl was employing the latter part of a glorious life in the active service of his country, when he could, with so much propriety, enjoy the
otium cum dignitate;
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Mr. Tyrwhitt
said he should detain the house but a very short time, for he should not enter on any detail of official business on this occasion, that having been amply and ably done by his noble friend; nor should he have said a word if the hon. gent. had not said of earl St. Vincent, that under an affected reform he had been guilty of cruelty and oppression. This allusion he knew to be totally unfounded, and that at the dock-yard at Plymouth, very essential reformations had taken place under the auspices of Mr. Tucker; a more useful reform, perhaps, had never been attempted in this country, and under which greater advantage had arisen, As to oppression in carrying it into effect, there was no evidence in that respect. The hon. gent.'s speech in the house had, from its manner of delivery and matter, given him reason to apprehend, that it would go out of the house as delivered within, and the false impression it was calculated to make ought therefore to be counteracted. The hon. gent. had charged earl St. Vincent with introducing with his name system of terror. As to cruelty and oppression, there was not a tittle to justify that charge; but as to the system of terror, he knew no other that his lordship could be charged with, except that system of terror to his majesty's enemies, which he began on the 14th of Feb. 1797, and which example had been nobly followed by many others of our naval commanders. The noble earl had been the means of introducing a system of reformation of abuses, which he hoped to see carried into effect in every department of the state; under a conviction of which, the good subjects of this country would cheerfully contribute to the support of the state. This was what he in his conscience believed.
Mr. Osborne Markham
complained, that the hon. mover had read one part of the letter only, respecting the stores at Dept-
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Mr. Bankes
objected to the motion, because he did not see any practical good that was to arise from it. When such a serious charge was brought against any person, it should either be with a view of founding some criminal prosecution, or at least some useful regulation. If neither of those objects were proposed, the house would be fruitlessly wasting their time in the discussion. The hon. gent. seemed to have brought his charge forward, merely with the view of redeeming some sort of a pledge that he had given to the house, and declared himself quite indifferent about the fate of his resolutions, after he should have finished his speech. The hon. gent. who seconded his motion, seemed also to have taken a curious mode of setting the question at rest, which he had declared was his only object in seconding the motion. One would have supposed that the motion might as well have gone to rest, if no gentleman had been found to second it. It could not be expected that gentlemen were to consume their time in studying such an immense mass of papers as had been produced, unless some practical good was likely to result from that study. The house were not to spend their time merely in the investigation of abstract truths, unless it were to lead to some practical conclusion. Upon this ground he thought the present subject was unworthy of any farther discussion. There was one thing, however, that he thought it necessary for him to state, in consequence of what fell from the hon. admiral. He always had considered that the navy board was subject to the controul of the admiralty, which was consequently responsible for its conduct. Whatever he might think there was to blame in the conduct of the noble earl, he saw a great deal to commend, in that eagerness which he always manifested to put down frauds and abuses of every kind. Whatever faults he had were certainly not in his heart; and he sincerely hoped his successors in office would follow the laudable example he had set them, of enquiring into abuses and waste of the public money.
Lord Howick,
in explanation, said, that
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Mr. Secretary Fox
said, he would trouble the house but for a short time; but there was a subject which had been introduced into this discussion, upon which he felt himself called to state his opinion distinctly. If the navy board should conduct itself ill, whether by improvident contracts, a waste of the public money, or else by negligence of their duty and supineness, it was the duty of the board of admiralty to controul them; and if they were evidently unfit for their situations, they ought to be displaced. A great deal of mischief had resulted from this not being well understood; and the only error he could impute to the earl of St.Vincent was, perhaps, that he misunderstood the nature of that circumstance. If the navy board acted corruptly, or from criminal negligence, that would be a subject for punishment; but if, from ignorance or insufficiency, they were unfit for their situations, they ought to be removed. The earl of St. Vincent was, perhaps, too delicate in that point, and had given way to a false opinion, which, if persevered in, would materially prevent the reform of abuses. The false opinion that many entertained, and to which, perhaps, his lordship had in some degree given way, was that it was a hardship on individuals to remove them from office, unless their misconduct was of such a nature, as could ground a criminal chargeagainst them. It was supposed by many, that the removal from employment was such an impeachment on the characters of the persons removed, that nothing could justify it, but such criminality as might be made the subject of prosecution. This opinion, however, was most erroneous and dangerous. There might be many cases, where the lords of the admiralty, or any persons in high situations, might discover a total incompetency in those they employed, and might even have strong suspicions of their integrity, without being absolutely prepared to bring forward a criminal charge; but it was the duty of the lords of the admiralty not to employ in the public service persons who were unfit to be employed. This was a principle of duty, which deli-
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Mr. Atkins
said a few words respecting the supply of timber in the dock-yards since the administration of earl St. Vincent, and expressed his approbation of the noble lord's measures.
Mr.Jeffery
in a reply of great length, adverted to the statement of an hon admiral (Markham), which he insisted was not authorised by the documents upon the table. He next enumerated a number of ships, which were built, and required almost immediate repair, during the administration of the noble earl; some of them were built for mere experiment, and in so insufficient a manner, that they soon fell into ruin and disuse. He particularly alluded to the Ajax, which, soon after she was built, required repairs; her bottom, and all other parts, being completely rotten. He was proceeding to state some calculalations, from, written papers; when chair! chair! was loudly called.
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The Speaker
wished to be instructed by the house, whether it could be permitted to a member to read written speeches in that house?
Mr. Canning
observed, that when an hon. member had to state facts from intricate calculation, it was generally usual to refer to any notes he might have made upon the subject. If this practice was to be disallowed, it would certainly curtail the proceedings of the house to a very narrow compass.
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that what the hon. gent. was reading was not any thing like what was called notes; it was a written discourse. If this practice should prevail, members might read speeches that were written by other people, and the time of the house be taken up in considering the arguments of persons who were not deserving of their attention.
The Speaker
observed, that the paper read by the hon. member, appeared to him to be a written argument; he thought the house was not in the habit of receiving such, and therefore felt it his duty to interfere.
Mr. Jeffery
answered, that, although he admitted the paper was not his own handwriting, yet it was copied from his writing, by his directions. After a few observations, the hon. gent. concluded with expressing his confidence, that he had fully made out his charge against the noble earl.—The question for referring the papers to a committee was then put, and negatived without a division.
[VOTE OF THANKS TO EARL ST. VINCENT.] Mr. Secretary Fox
then rose, and said, that if the hon. gent. had brought forward his charge in any tangible shape, which could be brought into question, he should have contented himself with moving, that the charge was frivolous and vexatious; but the hon. gent. had been extremely cautious, and had declined to bring forward his motions either in the house, or in the committee which he moved for. He had moved, indeed, for a committee to consider those resolutions, but never stated that it was his intention to proceed further in his charge. As to the charge itself, he did not hesitate to pronounce it frivolous and vexatious, and he thought the house had, by the vote they had just given, pronounced it void of foundation. Under these circumstances, it appeared to him, that it would be right to do what the house had often done on
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Mr. Wilberforce
felt considerable pain in being obliged to vote against the motion of the right hon. secretary: he considered, that notwithstanding the precedents which the right hon. gent. had quoted, it was quite unusual to come to such a vote, without any previous notice of an intention to make a motion of that nature. It was a very different thing indeed to negative the motion which had been made by the hon. gent. (Mr. Jeffery), and to be called upon to vote for such a one as had been proposed by the right hon. secretary. The charges that were brought forward against him were limited to the building of ships add repairing them, and embraced but a small part of the noble earl's naval administration. Although the charges on certain parts of his administration might have no foundation, it by no means followed that the whole of his administration was entitled to the approbation of the house. If it were entitled to such a distinguished expression of their approbation, that approbation ought to be conveyed in a manner more worthy of the house and of the noble lord. It would be but a poor triumph that appeared to be gained by a surprise of this kind. It would have more the resemblance of a party triumph, than that of any deliberate expression of the sense of that house. It gave him sincere pain to
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Mr. Yorke
was sorry to be obliged to differ from his hon. friend who had just sat down. He considered the charge which had been brought against the noble earl, as frivolous from the beginning to the end; and when a great public character was attacked; when a man who had so long distinguished himself in the service of the country, and who still continued to serve it, was subjected to such an accusation, he thought that when the house were of opinion that the accusation was unjust, it was not enough simply to repeal it, but that they should express their approbation of the conduct of the person who was the object of it. He did not find fault with the hon. gent. who brought forward the accusation; he made no doubt that he did so from honest motives, and, as a member of parliament, he had a right to do so. The house had, however, the privilege of expressing its feelings, and its sense of the merits of the noble lord; and he should therefore, in the same freedom, give his warmest support to the motion of the right hon. secretary.
Mr. Canning
thought it most extraordinary to bring forward a motion of such great magnitude, without any previous noticed [Mr: Fox said, across the house; I gave notice!] Notice, to be sure, was given, but when? At a quarter past twelve notice was given of a motion that was brought on at one. He could remember some instances somewhat similar to what were stated by the right hon. secretary; but still very different from the present motion; He remembered that when a motion was once made, for an address of thanks to his majesty for removing his late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) from his councils, there was an amendment moved, which turned the motion into a vote of thanks. The difference, however, between that case and the present one was, that notice was given of the amendment that was to be moved, on the same day that the notice was given of the motion; but even that ample notice did not save the motion from the severest censure of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox), who contended, that it was most unparliamentary to get rid of a charge in that manner, by turning it into a vote of thanks. Upon that occasion, he had forgotten to refresh the recollection of the house with the cases of admiral Keppel and lord Clive, which, he could cite on the
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Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that the ground on which he had opposed the form of the amendment mentioned by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) was, that it was contrary to the usage of parliament to adopt, in the shape of an amendment, a thing so totally contrary to the original motion. He did not think the case of sir Home Popham applied at all to the present case. Although his majesty's ministers might not consider the service at the capture of the Cape of Good Hope as sufficiently splendid to obtain the thanks of parliament, yet if an accusation had been brought in that house against sir H. Popham, for his conduct in contributing to the capture of the Cape of Good Hope, then indeed he should think that the house could not too strongly mark their indignation at such an accusation, and in such a case he would think the approbation of the house ought to be expressed by a direct vote. Such nearly was the present case; for who was it that could doubt that it was the merits of lord St. Vincent, and his zeal and success in
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Mr. Sturges Bourne
had no objection to the vote, provided it was confined to the zeal of the noble earl for reform, and did not extend to a general vote, comprehending the dock-yards, naval stores, and his naval administration in general. He would allude, and that reluctantly, to one fact, he meant the impressing of a naval officer, in the hall of the admiralty, by the order of the noble earl; and he contended, that unless the house approved that fact, without consideration, they could not agree to a general vote.
Mr. Tierney
expressed his most hearty concurrence in the motion of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Fox), and asked, Was it because an hon. gent. had thought proper to move for papers from month to month, and from day to day, which, when produced, did not substantiate a single charge against the noble earl, that the noble earl was to be still held up to the public, as a suspicious character? It was now a year since the hon. gent. had pledged himself to the house, that he would prove lord St. Vincent to be one of the greatest enemies the country ever had. It was now seen in, what manner he had redeemed this pledge.
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Mr. Bankes
thought that this motion came quite by surprise upon the house, and after a few observations, declared he should oppose it.
Sir Charles Pole
considered the charges alledged against the noble earl as frivolous and vexatious, and not confirmed in any one single point. Earl St. Vincent, he observed, never knew Bartholomew had been pressed; and the meritorious conduct of the noble earl, in endeavouring to suppress abuses in the naval department, deserved high public approbation; he should, therefore, heartily concur in the right hon. secretary's motion.
Mr. Perceval
said, he certainly should vote against the previous question; he was also adverse to referring the papers to a committee of the whole house, as he thought no public good could possibly arise from it. He confessed he could not speak on this subject without partiality, as he was prejudiced in favour of the noble earl, having had the honour to act with him and approve of his measures. He thought the question should have been gone into in some shape or other, and really wished the vote of thanks had come in some better way, as the manner in which it was to be carried, would cer-
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, May 15.
[MINUTES.]
The house proceeded as usual, to Westminster Hall, and returned about 4; when an order was made to proceed further on the trial of lord Melville to-morrow, and a message was sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.— The house resolved itself into a committee on the Insolvent Debtors' bill; several amendments were made, on the motion of lord Holland. The house having resumed, the report was received, and the bill with the amendments was ordered to be printed. —Mr. Williams, from the commissioners of Naval Enquiry, presented the 13th report of that board, which, on the motion of earl Spencer, was ordered to be printed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 15.
[MINUTES.]
A message from the lords acquainted the house, that their lordships would proceed further with the trial of lord viscount Melville to-morrow, in Westminster Hall.— Mr. II.Thornton presented, pursuant to order of the house, an Account of all sums of money paid to the Sierra Leone company pursuant to grants of parliament; also an Account of the disbursement of said sums.—Mr. Williams presented the 13th report of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—The Irish Loan bill, and Irish Treasury Bills bill, were read a third time, and passed.—The Mutiny bill was read a third time and passed.— The speaker stated to the house, that he had received a letter from admiral Duckworth, dated the 1st of May, in answer to the vote of thanks of the house to himself, and the officers and seamen under his command. The letter was to the following purport: "Superb, off Cales, May 1. Sir; I have received yours of the 25th of March, conveying the highest honour that can be conferred on any officer in his majesty's service, the Thanks of the Imperial Parliament of his Country. However feebly I may be able to express the high sense
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.]Mr. Paull
seeing a noble lord in his place (lord Morpeth), wished to know why the papers he had moved for respecting Bhurtpore, were so long delayed. He had first moved for. their production on the 11th of March, and finding the order of that day was not complied with, he moved, upon
216
Mr. Creevey
said, that the board of controul had done all that was incumbent on them to do, when they served the India board with notice of the order that had been made by that house. He thought, however, that it must appear most unfair in that hon. gent. to charge the board of controul with wishing to keep back any information, when it was recollected, that they had not resisted one of the 98 motions for papers which the hon. gent. had made in the course of the last 4 months. He, however, in consequence of the conversation in that hope upon the subject, had sent to Mr. Ramsden, the secretary of the India board, to know the reason why those papers were not produced. He was informed by the answer, that there was at present a chasm in the consultations of Bengal, which probably the next ships would supply. Since that time, the hon. gent. had made 39 motions for papers, which went so far as to require a detailed account of the most minute expenses of the marquis Wellesley in his entertainments. At the same time, they were getting ready the papers relative to Surat, which were no less than 2000 close folio pages. While all these accounts were making out at the same time, it would not be wonderful if there should be some delay; this delay could not, however, be imputed, in any degree, to the board of controul, who were really willing to give him as many papers as he asked for. If these papers were not necessary, they had a mischievous effect, as they interfered with the making up of the official documents. There were two India budgets in arrear, and now in preparation, the papers connected with Which would afford a much better knowledge of the affairs of India,, than all the minute details moved for by the hon. gent.
Mr. Paull
replied, that he was entitled to these papers to enable him to substantiate against the marquis Wellesley, as important charges as ever were brought for ward in that house. He thought there was great delay in the production of all these papers.
Mr. Creevey
denied, that there was any delay that was not unavoidable.
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Mr. Francis
thought, that when a member moved for any papers, he was himself the best judge of their effect, and therefore was not obliged to take the advice of those who might be adverse to his views. He had seen a paper signed by twenty-three directors, who, amongst other things, complained that the marquis Wellesley did not register his papers regularly in the consultation. The chasm could however be no reason for not making a return. If no record could be found, the answer would be easier.
Sir Hugh Inglis
said, the principal reasons which occasioned the delay of those papers were, first, the voluminous nature of the papers which were ordered with respect to Surat; in the second place, there had no vessel left Bengal since the Medusa, which sailed in November. He had reason, however, to think that the first ship which arrived would supply the chasm that was complained of. He assured the hon. gent. that there was no wish to delay, and that the papers should be laid upon the table as soon as, in the circumstances of the case, they could be got ready.—Upon this explanation, and after a few words from Lord Morpeth, Mr. Paull consented to withdraw his motion. Mr. Paull then gave notice, that he should move, the next day, to rescind an order that had been made in the month of April, for the production of a protest of Mr. Bosanquet, relative to this transaction.
[PROPERTY DUTY BILL.]
The House resolved itself into a committee of the whole house upon the Property Duty Bill.
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
expressed his disapprobation of making the interest of Exchequer Bills the object of the direct operation of the tax, because these securities, being at present at a premium of only 2
s
Mr. Francis
did not think that the direct operation of the tax would bring exchequer
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Mr. Vansittart
did not think that the mischief apprehended by the hon. alderman, would result from deducting the duty at the exchequer. The measure was to be prospective, so that it would not affect the present holders of securities of that description. As to the funding of exchequer bills, that would cause a loss to the public, as they could not at present be funded at a higher rate than 58l. per cent. in the three per cents.; and after the was, they perhaps might be funded at 70l. per cent. —After a few observations from Mr. Johnstone and lord H. Petty, the clause, on being amended by inserting the words "all securities chargeable with interest out of the public revenue," instead of "exchequer bills," was agreed to.
Sir C. Price
wished to know, whether it was proposed to levy the tax on all income derived from the public funds, of whatever amount?
Mr. Vansittart
replied in the affirmative, and that he was not aware of any intention to make any alteration in that provision.
Mr. Garland
contended, that this clause would produce much injustice and inequality. he put the case of a man having an income of 20
l
l
S
Lord H. Petty
informed the hon. member, as he had uniformly stated before, that it was his intention in the formation
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l
Mr. Wilberforce
was afraid, that the severity of this clause would render the tax itself distasteful to the great body of the people. He considered it as something like a breach of the public faith, to place those in a worse situation who had incomes derived from funded property, than they were who derived their subsistence from labour. But according to this clause it would so happen, that the man who had 60
l
l
s
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Sir Robert Buxton
recommended the landed interest to the attention of the
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Mr. Spencer Stanhope
thought this tax;of 10 per cent. on all funded property, would fall peculiarly heavy on many of the lower classes of the people, but particularly servants, he would suppose a faithful servant had saved, after years of service, 100
l
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l
Mr. Johnstone
coincided with the noble lord, with regard to the impolicy of increasing the scale of taxation in proportion to the increase of income. But he could not see any reason for taxing those who had funded property, so much more severely than annuitants.
Mr. Vansittart
observed, that the objections which had been urged by several hon. members, proceeded entirely from a misapprehension of the principle of the bill. They had all along argued as if it went to impose a tax on income, and not on property. The present tax bore a resemblance to the land-tax, which was paid in the same proportion by the man who had ten acres, as by him who had ten thousand. In the same manner, this tax was proposed to be laid on the property of the subject, and did not at all enquire into the amount of that property. The efficacy of the tax would depend on adhering to this principle; and as the income arising from an annuity or from labour was very different from that derived from real property, certain remissions of the tax were proposed to be granted in the former cases. The situation of the man who had an annuity, was very different from that of him who had an income arising from real property. The an-
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Sir W. Geary
thought the bill bore too hard on the lower classes of the people. It was said, that every man was, by the bill, taxed according to his means. This was not, however, the case; every man, it was true, having more than 50
l
l
Mr. Babington
was of opinion, that enforcing the tax would, on many occasions, produce very great hardship; and thought, from his own experience, that it could not fail to prove a most disagreeable task to the commissioners employed under it. He, therefore, wished to remind the noble lord, that taxes very often took their complexion, in the public opinion, from the occurrence of cases of particular hardship ; and thought that sonic modifications would render it more palateable, and equally productive.
Mr. Fox
wished to state in a few words his ideas respecting the principle of the tax. The general principle of it seemed to be, that all persons having property, of whatever kind, were bound to contribute. The exception from this principle was, that those were to be exempted from its operation, who could not contribute to the tax without depriving themselves of the necessaries of life, and thus becoming the proper objects of charity. In many cases, it would be impossible to take any thing from the produce of labour, since it might be barely sufficient to procure subsistence. Hence the propriety of those exemptions that were proposed in certain cases. Annuitants also below a certain sum were to be exempted, because they could not be said to be possessed of real property. But this would not apply to income derived from monies in the funds, or from landed property. Suppose a man to be possessed of 6 or 700
l
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l
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
observed, that it was very common for people in the lower ranks of life to settle on their widows the interest of the small sums they had been able to accumulate, and the tax, operating on such an income, might reduce those who received it to the sitnation of paupers.
Mr. Fox
replied, that people of that description evidently belonged to the class of annuitants.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
said, the tax would operate with a severity amounting to cruelty, in those cases, where small farmers left 100
l
Mr. Wilberforce
said, he did not see why the difficulty should be greater now, than under lord Sidmouth's administration, to allow, in certain cases, funded property, under 50l. a year exemption. Artificers and artisans, he thought, were much better able to hear the tax, than many widows and persons in a state of decrepitude and decay, who had seen better days, and who, by the diminution of their little means, would be particularly appressed.
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Mr. Francis
remarked, that the noble lord, who brought forward the tax, seemed to he so inveterately addicted to his principle of arithmetical proportion, that he seemed disposed to sacrifice every consideration of benevolence to the plan of squaring the tax, in all cases, to the sum of income, without at all adverting to the infinitely various cases of hardship and difficulty to which poor persons, with small incomes and large families, were exposed. But he would find, upon experience, this rule of proportion would prove a rule of false position. With men whose incomes were far above want, for instance, two or three thousand a year, little or no inconvenience would be felt ; but where the means of a family's existence came to be abridged, the hardship would press intolerably.
Mr. Hudleston
recommended that the bill should be rendered more palateable, in order that, it might succeed. His first impression, when it was introduced, and the impression which he was convinced remained upon the public mind, was that no income of any description whatever under 50
l
Mr. W. Smith
expressed his concern to hear his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox) say, that the operation of the tax was only to be arrested when it would occasion a want of the necessaries of life. He felt more for those who, with the most scanty means, were obliged to do what was called "keeping up appearances in life." He alluded to that decent and respectable order of persons, numerous every where throughout this metropolis and the kingdom at large, who had seen better days, and been early used to the comforts of life, but who, with small incomes, were condemned, under the vicissitudes of the times, to struggle with difficulties, in endeavouring to preserve appearances and maintain their claims to decent respect. That order of persons would be more hurt by the necessity of applying for parochial relief, or charitable aid, than those of a lower
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Mr. Secretary Fox
begged leave to recall the attention of the committee to the line of distraction he had before drawn, and to repeat that it was by no means the wish of those who brought forward this tax, that it should so far trespass upon the necessaries of life, as to oblige any of the parties from whom it should be exacted to apply for parochial, or even for private relief; and therefore upon this principle, as in the cases of income from labour, the mere annuitant for life in any income from the funds under 50
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l
l
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, May 16.
[MINUTES.]
The house proceeded at 10 to Westminster-hall, and returned about half past 3, when an order was made to proceed further on the trial of lord Melville the next day, and a message was sent, to the commons to acquaint them. therewith.—The Mutiny bill, the Irish Loan bill, and the Irish Treasury Bills bill, were read a 2d time.—The earl of Suffolk took an opportunity to allude to a petition presented some time since, claiming one of the titles borne by his lordship, which was alledged by it to be in abeyance. He had been indisposed at the time it was presented, and was obliged to leave town soon after; which would shortly, he observed, be the case, on certain pressing domestic occasions: what he had to submit to the house, and in the way of requisition, it such might not be deemed improperor irregular, was, that no proceedings should take place, respecting the business, during his absence, which, when he considered the advanced state of the session, and the
226
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.] Lord Grenville
adverting to the order for Monday, relative to the attendance of witnesses in the case of Mr. Justice Fox, observed that it was evidently impossible for the house to take that business into consideration on so early a day, and therefore he should merely move to discharge the order for Monday, and renew it for the 30th instant; which motion, he was authorised to say, had the consent of the noble marquis (Abercorn) with whom the business originated.
The Duke of Cumberland
said, he was also authorised by his noble friend to state, that he had. no objection to the present motion. He trusted, however, that in postponing the order, it would not be understood that it was to be deferred sine die.—After a few words in explanation from lord Grenville, the order was discharged, and fixed for the 30th instant.
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.] Lord Grenville
moved, that the Additional Force Act Repeal bill should be read a second time on Monday, and the lords be summoned.
Lord Hawkestury
expressed a wish that a longer interval might be allowed. It was understood that there were other subjects connected with the repeal of this bill, upon which he wished for information, and respecting which, lie thought a further time ought to be allowed for their consideration. His principal reason, however, for rising, was to ask a question of the noble lord. He had heard that it had been proposed in another place, to alter the constitution of the army, by enlisting for a limited time. He wished to know
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Lord Grenville
denied that there was any connection between the present bill and other measures that it was supposed by the noble lord were intended to be brought forward. Whether any other measures were to be proposed or not, he should still consider the repeal of the bill as a measure of sound and wise policy. With respect to the question of the noble lord, it applied to what was irregularly known with respect to something that had been stated in the house of commons He could only say upon this subject, that the house of commons would decide upon any such propositions, according to their own judgment; and that this house could not be supposed to know any thing that passed in the other house, until it came regularly before them.—The bill was ordered to be read a 2d. time on Monday, and the lords to be summoned.
[SLAVE IMPORTATION RESTRICTION BILL.]
The order of the day for the third reading of this bill being read,
The Duke of Clarence
rose,and expressed his intention of moving an amendment to the title of the bill, which lie seemed to say would produce the effects intended, with respect to the operation of certain parts of the bill, to which, more than the rest, he strongly objected. He wished that some peer, more competent then himself had come forward; but he felt the importance of the subject so strongly, that hi was induced to offer himself to the attention of their lordships, There were particular parts of the bill, which, more that any other, and in every point of view ii which he considered them, his royal highness seemed to think objectionable. He meant chiefly those which went to prevent the exportation of slaves from British islands, or in British vessels, into foreign colonies. When he considered this prohibition, under whatever motive it was professedly urged, he must deem it part of system for the abolition of the slave trade Were their lordships duly to consider, o bad they an opportunity of considering that great mass of evidence which was adduced on the subject, they would then b fully aware of, and thoroughly impressed with, the importance of the traffic in question. His royal highness entered upon some calculations to evince this proposition, and stated the capital employed in the trade to exceed two millions sterling. He
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The Earl of Suffolk
felt himself bound on principles of humanity, as well as of liberty, to support the bill. He adverted to the practicability of cultivating the West-India islands, by other means than those of the importation of African negroes and suggested the possibility of introducing seapoys from the east, or some of the inhabitants of the Cape of Good Hope. He dwelt much on the good effects of a mild and humane treatment of the negroes at present on the soil, which, together with encouraging propagation amongst them, might in a short time preclude the necessity of farther importations for the purposes of cultivation.
The Bishop of London
said, he could Clot satisfy his own mind, if he sat silent upon what he must consider as a question of morality. The objections which had been urged against the present bill, did not Weigh much with him, for they were the Same that had been advanced against the bill for abolishing the slave trade. The continuance of this traffic could not be maintained for an instant upon the score of morality, and here he was glad to find that the objections upon the ground of political consideration, made no less against it. If it contributed to prevent the mortality which was always found to accompany the cultivation and breaking up of new grounds, that would be a great inducement to him to vote in support of it. He had for a whole year constantly attended a committee which sat in that house, to consider of the propriety of abolishing the slave trade, and the result of all he had heard was, that it was possible to keep up the quantity of negroes necessary for cultivating the West Indies, without recurring to importation, or the dreadful practices to which it gave rise. Wherever that unfortunate race of men were treated with common humanity, they increased like other human beings. In Virginia, where the importation of negroes had been prohibited, a census was taken in the year 1786, and it was found that in that province their number had increased upwards of 15,000 in the course of 3 years that the trade was prohibited. He was anxious that his countrymen should be entirely disengaged from all concern in that opprobrious traffic, and therefore he would vote for the bill before their lordships.
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The Earl of Westmorland
considered that part of the bill which it was the object of the illustrious duke to do away, as tending not only to destroy a large proportion of the trade alluded to by the illustrious duke, but also the trade carried on to the Spanish colonies in America, under the cover of exporting slaves, and which created a market for two million sterling of British manufactures. He did not object to that part of the bill which prohibited supplying with slaves, colonies taken during war, as, in the event of their being surrendered, the British capital employed only went to enrich the enemy. With respect to the abolition of the slave trade, the trade had been carried on for a long series of years under the ablest ministers that this country had seen, and who never thought of abolishing it; the idea of the abolition first originated, within a few years past, among atheists, enthusiasts, jacobins, and such descriptions of persons. If they doubted his statements with respect to the amount of the trade carried on, let evidence be called to the bar to prove or disprove them, but at least the house ought to pause before they consented to destroy a trade of such magnitude, particularly at a time when our commerce had so many difficulties to encounter. The argument, that supplying foreign colonies with slaves enabled them to rival us in the market, was one directly in favour of the slave trade.
The Marquis of Sligo
opposed the bill, as pregnant with infinite danger to the very existence of the West-India islands.
Lord Holland
said, that it was almost unnecessary for him to trouble their lordships. All the objections to the principle of the bill had been urged over and over, upon every discussion which took place on the hills, which had been almost annually submitted to parliament, for abolishing the slave trade. So far from the planters being alarmed by the present bill, all of them he had conversed with, were decidedly in favour of it. So far from its being prejudicial, they were decidedly of opinion, that it would be advantageous to their interests. Were the traffic to cease to-morrow, he was convinced, that not an article less of British manufacture would find its way into the Spanish colonies. Fortunately, British manufactures were become of absolute necessity to the inhabitants of South America, and they would have them, though the slave importation trade, which, according to the statement of a noble lord, was
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The Bishop of St. Asaph
said, that a noble lord had characterised the bill before their lordships as abolition in disguise. He was s no friend to any thing in disguise; but, while he was in that house, he would, by every means in his power, whether fair or foul, whether by open hostility, or secret stratagem, labour to destroy that infamous traffic, which was no less a disgrace to humanity, than it was destructive of the morals of the nation. His lordship urged a variety of arguments against the slave trade, and supported the bill, as the first step towards its abolition.
Lord Eldon,
after glancing at the conduct he formerly held, with respect to the subject so often adverted to, observed, that with a due regard to himself and his fellow-subjects, and a respect for the interests of those who were concerned, he had now to express to their lordships the doubts he entertained upon the present occasion. His lordship wished, that while the reverend prelates were supporting this measure, they would also indemnify the individuals who must stiller by it. There was no man more inclined to the abolition of the slave trade than himself, yet he had his doubts upon the subject, and greatly apprehended it would destroy a large portion of British shipping, British sailors, and British merchants, and would carry an article of trade into a foreign market. His, lordship, therefore, opposed the measure.
Lord Darnley
supported the bill, on the ground of its being merely a regulation of policy, with regard to the colonies of the enemy, which, though now in our possession, might be restored when a peace took place. He likewise observed, that though British capital might be thrown out of this particular branch of commerce, yet it would easily find some other channel, in which it might be employed in a manner equally beneficial.
The Duke of Gloucester
made his maiden speech, to the following effect: My lords; on a subject of such importance as this, involving it the feelings of humanity and the principles of justice, it is impossible
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Lord Grenville
began by answering the arguments of those who objected to the bill on the ground of its injuring our export trade; and said that when the advantages of traffic and commerce were opposed to the horrors of peculation and murder, he had no hesitation in deciding his judgment. His lordship said that this bill had been represented as abolition in disguise. Were tins true, he should be glad indeed, not of the disguise, but of the abolition. It would be an event most grateful to his feelings to witness the abolition of a traffic that was s an outrage to humanity, and that trampled on the rights of mankind. But he could see no reason for disguise, on such a subject. He had heard of fraud in disguise, of injustice and oppression in disguise; but justice and humanity required no disguise. Those who felt those virtues, would be also proud to acknowledge them. It had been argued, that if we laid down the trade, others were ready to take it up. This, however, was a mode of reasoning that would not stand the test of examination. Were we to act unjustly in order to prevent others from doing so? Let us clear ourselves of the
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Lord Hawkesbury
said, he had never objected to the abolition of the slave trade in any shape in which interest was to be viewed on the one side, and humanity on
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Lord Ellenborough
supported the bill in a variety of arguments, and adverting to the speech of a noble and learned lord (Eldon), expressed his astonishment, that any noble lord who had supported and approved of the same measure in the shape of an order of council, should oppose this bill, unless it was that they' proceeded front different men.
Lord Eldon
explained, and was referring particularly to what had fallen from the learned lord who had just spoken; when
Lord Lauderdale
on the authority of a standing order of the house, called the learned lord to order.
Lord Sidmouth
expressed the greatest abhorrence of the infamous and disgraceful
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The Duke of Sussex
spoke at considerable length against the bill; and, among a variety of other arguments, urged that the more wealthy those islands were which we had conquered from the enemy, they would be the better calculated to become the purchasers of our manufactures. The slaves in the West Indies were well treated in general, and formed to habits of industry.
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
assured their lordships, that it appeared manifest to him, that the interest of our West-India colonies would be considerably advanced by this measure.
Lord Auckland
informed their lordships that he, in conjunction with others; endeavoured,.in the year 1788, to bring the different commercial nations to a general agreement to discontinue this trade. The French revolution, however, broke out, and prevented this general extensive regulation or understanding, which appeared to him to be far more beneficial to the cause of justice and humanity than any local prohibition.
Lord Sheffield
considered the bill before their lordships as another instance of the infatuated disposition to sacrifice the navigation and commerce of the empire; the object of those who looked to abolition of the slave trade would not be in the least degree answered. The measure, however, seems a curious mixture of the sentimental in respect to the trade in slaves, and of a job in favour of our old West-India settlements, for the ruin of our new acquisitions in those parts. He would not then enter into the policy of conquering, retaining, and improving, at a great expence, acquisitions which there was every reason to believe, we must relinquish on a peace; but he must say that it is oppressive, it is faithless, after the terms we had granted, and the advantage of becoming British subjects, that we should now tell the inhabitants they should not have the means of cultivating their soil, nor of carrying on their usual commerce. In addition to the strong objections which had been urged by the noble lords who opposed the bill, he must observe, that we had little or no direct carrying-trade left, except to Africa and the East and West Indies; and surely at the period when Americans or neutrals participate so very largely in the
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 16.
[MINUTES.]
A message from the lords announced their lordships' intention of proceeding further the next day with the trial of lord Melville.—Sir J. Newport presented the Irish Malt Duty bill, which was read a first time.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the Property Tax Duty bill; which was ordered to be taken into further consideration on Monday.
[BARRACKS.] Mr. Robson
rose to bring forward his promised motion for the production of certain documents relative to the department of Barracks, with a view to institute an enquiry into. certain gross abuses in that department, through the wasteful expenditure of the public money. He said it was now 4 years since he had ventured to obtrude himself upon the attention of the house, by some observations, and a motion, on the very subject which it was now his purpose to offer to their consideration; namely, the scandalous abuses then existing in the Barrack department; and he, on that occasion, warned the house of the enormity of those abuses, upon which he had not the good fortune of being able to institute, at that time, any enquiry; but which now were palpably proved to have existed to the full extent which he then asserted, by the Report of the Military Commissioners. now in his hand, and which for some weeks had lain, most unaccountably, unnoticed upon their table; and he now ventured to say, that had his advice been then taken, many millions of the public money would have been saved, and tie occasion would have existed for laying such a report before parliament. It was now some years since the house had. been in the habit of voting large sums of money for the erection of Barracks in various parts of the kingdom.; but those votes had, of late years, increased to an enormous extent. Last year it was 2,300,000
l
l
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Lord Henry Petty
said, that if the hon. gent. had done him the honour to make the slightest communication to him of his wishes or intentions upon the subject, he believed he should have been able to have satisfied the hon. gent. that his motion for papers and the purpose He had avowed, were rendered unnecessary, by another arrangement which had already taken place. As the hon. gent. had not thought proper so to do, he would beg leave to say now, that although he saw no objection whatever to the production of the papers named in the hon. Gent's motion, yet, at the same time, as the house had already appointed Commissioners, for the very purpose of the investigation avowed by the hon member as his object, and had delegated to them its authority to enquire, with the utmost minuteness, concerning every expenditure in the Barrack, as well as other military departments; which commissioners were proceeding with all the expedition in their power, consistently with the nature of the subjects referred to their examination; he would put it to the good sense of the hon. gent. whether it would not he much more orderly and consistent with the regular proceedings of parliament, first, to await the report of those commissioners, or to communicate to them any information that could aid or accelerate their enquiry, before he proceeded to call
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Mr. Robson
rose and said: If, sir, my eyes did not convince me to the contrary, I should have conceived that it was the ghost of the late minister I have just heard, What the noble lord has just said is, word for word, the objection made by the minister four years ago, to a motion which I then made for enquiry upon the same subject, and I have brought down with me the Parliamentary Debates to prove the fact. But, notwithstanding the disappointment I feel at such an answer coming from the noble lord, as one of his majesty's present ministers, I shall persist, aye, inexorably persist, with the leave of the house, in my determination of having this business sifted to the very bottom. It cannot interfere with the military commission. But, am I to be told, that the house of commons has, in any case, abandoned its inquisitorial authority, and delegated it to any board of commissioners, so as to preclude itself from investigation upon any similar subject it may think necessary? The military commissioners have now been sitting almost a year, and what have they produced? Why, only one report; and this report, notwithstanding the enormous, corrupt, and profligate waste of the public money which it has exposed, has now lain nearly six weeks upon your table; and I take shame to myself as a member of this house, that it has laid there so long unnoticed. As a member of parliament, I have a right to enquire, though a commission is sitting. Do not tell me, sir, that a commission of enquiry is sitting! Am I to be told, that the house of commons, apprised as it is of
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Lord H. Petty
appealed to the house, whether government could be said to have lost any time in proceeding on the suggestions of the Report of the Military Commissioners. He had himself made a distinct statement to the house on the subject of that report. He did not deny the right of a member of parliament to interfere with the enquiry delegated to the commissioners. He only appealed to the hon. gent's discretion; an appeal of which, after what he had just heard, he should be inclined to doubt the success.
Mr. Bastard
recommended to the hon. gent. to substitute the word "buildings" instead of "barns," and to make the motion general.
Mr. Robson
thanked the hon. gent., but would defer that till another day. The question was then put upon the first motion and agreed to. The hon. gent. then moved, for a "copy of a letter to the late secretary at war, dated 29th Dec. 1805, from the then Barrack-master of Sandown bay division, inclosing proposals on, the part of Mr. James Day of Brading, for the building of a Barrack at Brading"
Mr. Perceval
wished the hon. gent. would explain to the house what. was the object of his motion, and the nature of the letter.
Mr. Robson
observed, that he was prepared to give an answer, but he thought he was entitled to the papers, Upon the grounds he bad already stated. He ob served, that there seemed a disposition to resist him in every step he advanced upon the subject, instead of thanking him for his endeavours to expose to the house a system of delinquency in the public expenditure. His object in moving for this paper, the contents of which he already knew, was to produce what the learned gent. would call legal evidence.
The Speaker
having looked at the written Copy of the motion, wished to know whe-
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Mr. Robson.
From, sir, if you please.
The Speaker.
The hon. member having in his verbal motion spoken of the letter which is the subject of it, as being a letter from the secretary at war, and the written motion being for a letter to the secretary at war, the object of my question is to know which the hon. gent. meant.
Mr. Robson.
To, sir, if you please; as it is written in the paper now in your hand.—[A laugh.]
Mr. Paull
said, he was confident that if his hon. friend had not felt himself perfectly acquainted with the business he had undertaken and the objects of the motion he had offered, he would not have moved them. His hon. friend had moved for papers upon a subject of grave and serious importance, no less than a gross and corrupt profusion of the public money, to which it was at all times the duty of that house to attend; and he thought his hon. friend had experienced a levity of treatment ill comporting with the gravity of the house, or the respect due to one of its members.
Lord H Petty
was not aware that there was any ground for the charge of levity, when the house had discovered every disposition to grant the information required. He trusted the house would act always with becoming gravity, and .that when the papers granted for its information were produced, it would not countenance any proceeding upon them derogatory to the commission it had appointed.
Mr. Rose
did not think it decent or becoming to charge the house with levity. He was surprised that the hon. gent. who made the motion should refuse to explain to the house what was the object of it. He was entirely of opinion with the noble lord, as to the impropriety of instituting an enquiry in that house at the same time that parliamentary commissioners were employed in the investigation elsewhere, who had power to call for papers and to examine witnesses on oath.
Mr. W. Smith
was convinced the hon. mover had too much pleasantry and good humour to feel hurt, if a smile was excited in the house by the uncertainty he had evinced on his own motion, as to whether the letter for which he moved, was to or from the secretary at war. He thought it more regular for the commission to go on and do its functions, and afterwards for the
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Mr. Robson
explained, that the motion was written in the sense in which he wished to have it put, but the hand-writing not being the most legible, he had inadvertently read one word for the other.
Mr. Hiley Addington
still pressed for an answer. Could the house, he asked, enter into the enquiry when there was a parliamentary commission actually sitting?
Mr. Robson
thought he had made out a strong case for enquiry. If the letter he had moved for had been attended to, there would have been an absolute saving of 100
l
Mr. Calcraft
thought there never was a case on which a motion for the previous question could so properly be put. Unless suspicions were entertained of the commissioners, he did not see how the house could proceed farther. It had delegated its authority for the present to those commissioners, and till there was some ground to suppose, that they were not doing what was right, he thought it would be improper to interfere with their proceedings, an should therefore move the previous question.
Mr. Bastard
could not agree with the hou. Gent. That enquiry in that house should stop, because enquiry happened to be going on else where. He did not think that parliament, by delegating its power to a commission, did thereby preclude itself from adverting to the subject if it thought proper.
Mr. Robson
was sorry that the hon. gent. Had not been in the house to move the previous question upon his first motion. By moving for the previous question, the house would put itself in the situation of having ordered on paper, which was of no use, unless explained by those which there was now a disposition to refuse. To say, continued the hon. gent., that a commissioner is equal to a member of parliament, is ridiculous. Are there not men in this house as good as any commissioners can be? All I ask for is two or three short letters which a clerk can copy out in half an hour. Give me but these, and I will take upon me to prove that there has been a corrupt and profligate profusion in a branch of our expenditure, which has cost the country 10 or 12 millions, and I pledge my character as a member of parliament to do it. What am I to think, sir, when the treasury bench start up and move the previous question on such an occasion? I am resolved to take
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Mr. Calcraft
said, that nobody was more fond of enquiry than he was, and it was because an enquiry was actually going on, that he thought it proper to move the previous question. He advised the hon. gent. To give his papers to the commissioners, who might make a report upon them. Had he been in the house when the first question was put, he should certainly have moved the previous question upon it.
Lord H. Petty
said, he felt himself justified in supporting the previous question moved by his hon. friend, specifically on the grounds that the hon. gen. had not satisfied the house as to the nature of the papers for which he had moved. In supporting the previous question, however, he desired expressly to disclaim any wish of precluding enquiry, or any denial of the undoubted right of every member of that house to move for any papers he might think necessary. But the question of right was on thing, and the expediency of exercising that right in all cases quite another: there might be many rights unquestionable in the possession of many men, but there were many cases in which it might be wise and expedient to dispense with the exercise of them. The present he conceived to be one of those cases: but by opposing the hon. member's wishes on this occasion, he by no means meant to preclude him from the fullest information he should feel it necessary to demand upon this subject at a future day, when those commissioners should have finished their enquiry which, under the authority they possessed of examining evidence upon oath, they were more competent to accomplish than any enquiry that could be carried on by that house.
Mr. Martin
said, he thought it his duty to stand up in defence of a gent. Who, he was convinced, was desirous of doing good to the public, and show ought to be supported in his honest endeavours to do his duty, and was of opinion he had made out his case.
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Mr. Robson
asserted, that there would have been a saving of 100 per cent. on the transaction, if the letter he moved for. had, been attended to. Surely, sir, said the hon. gent., this case is clear enough! My, motion seems to cut upon both parties, the goers-out and the' comers-in. The previous question is a thing that I hold cheap. Jo my motion four years ago respecting the 19
l
s
Mr. Rose
thought it would have been much the better Way, if the hon. gent. had stated to the commissioners what had come to his knowledge about this business.
Mr. S. Bourne
agreed With the last speaker, and observed, that those commissioners had greater powers in this respect than the house itself, as they could examine upon oath.
Mr. Calcraft
said, that as all the objects .could be obtained by the commissioners, he should move the previous question on this motion also.
Mr. Paull
said, that his hon. friend had .given sufficient grounds for his motion, by stating that a clerk could copy out in half .an hour what would enable him to, prove .that gross frauds had been committed.
Mr. Bastard
said, as the hon. gent had stated that 100 per cent might be saved, he thought that a sufficient ground. He wished to know what security we had that the public would not continue to pay this sum till the commissioners had reported upon it.
Mr. Huskisson,
as the hon., gent had stated that the granting a few papers would enable him to prove such gross abuses, thought it would not be right to wait till the commissioners might have leisure to enquire in to the business.
Lord H. Petty
said, that as the hon. gent. had now assigned some reason for his motion, he should consent, with the leave of of his hon. friend (Mr. Calcrat), that
246
Mr. Huskisson
wished the hon. mover would state the object for which he moved for these papers.
Mr. Robson
then confessed, that the shameful waste of money he complained of was not only in building the. Barracks, but in the rent of the barns, which might have been got for a quarter of the money.
Sir J. Newport
said, this was quite a different thing: the motion was about building Barracks, while the meaning of the hon. gent. was about renting barns. He thought the hon. member should state what object he had in view, as the house could never get through their business, if every individual member might move for whatever papers lie pleased, without assigning any reason, and if the house were to consider themselves always bound to grant papers when moved for.
Mr. W. Smith
suggested to the hon. mover, that be had better withdraw his motions for the present, and bring them forward in a more distinct form on an early day, suppose on Monday.
Mr. Robson
refused, and said he should be content if his motion were put upon the journals, as it would then be upon record that he, at least, had done his duty.
Mr. Vansittart
begged the hon. gent would give the house sonic explanation, why he wished for these papers? He might understand his own motions, but certainly he had not succeeded in making him understand them.
Mr. Robson
said, he had already explained himself sufficiently; he would not. submit to be examined and questioned as if he were a witness at the bar: as a member of parliament, he thought it beneath his dignity to wait upon any set of commissioners, .standing in a. hall, going up one staircase and. down. another in pursuit of them.
Lord H. Petty
thought, that if the hon. gent.'s sense of the dignity of a member parliament would not allow him to answer a question put to him in. that house, or to explain why he brought forward motions, the house would probably think it was agreeable to their dignity, as members of parliament, not to give any countenance to such, motions. He should therefore again move the previous question.
Mr. W. Smith
took notice of what fell from the hon. mover, "that he only wished to have his motions on the journals."
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Mr. Robson
then moved for a "copy of the answer (if any) that was given, or communicated to Mr. James Day, in consequence of his making proposals to the secretary at war, for the building of a Barrack at Brading in the Isle of Wight; and, if no answer was given, information to that effect." Also, "a list of the several barns rented by government and used as Barracks in the division of Sandown Bay, in the Isle of Wight, specifying the rent now weekly or annually paid for each barn, and also specifying the precise time when any alteration (if any) in the rent of the said barns took place." Upon these the previous question was also put and carried.
Mr. Rose
expressed his regret that the business would make its way into the public prints.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Sir A. Wellesley
asked if the hon gent. (Mr. Paull) had fixed on the day on which he meant to bring forward the motion against lord Wellesley, relative to Oude?
Mr. Paull
mentioned Monday week; but on the suggestion of the Speaker, fixed it for the first day after the holidays; stating that he should lay the charge on the table, and at the same time move for witnesses to be called in, and also for a few papers in support of it. The hon. gent then moved, that the order of a former day, for the production of the protest taken by Mr. Bosanquet, against an approval by the court of directors of lord Wellesley's conduct, be discharged. He stated, that this motion had been made by him under the impression that he had liberty to do so if any of the board of controul should happen to be present. He accordingly had done so, but found next day that he had laboured under a misconception, and would therefore, as he had offered, have immediately moved for rescinding the order, had it been of any immediate consequence. He now moved, that the order be discharged; meaning, on some future occasion, to move that the paper he produced, a, well as a dispatch which had formerly been moved for by a noble lord, and then refused, though unquestionably it must ultimately be produced—After a few words from Mr. Adding-
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[FIRST REPORT OF THE MILITARY COMMISSION.] Lord H Petty
rose, to move that the house should resole itself into a committee of supply; but before he did so, he would take the opportunity of giving a more specific notice than lie had as yet given, respecting an affair which had for some tune back engaged the attention of the house and the public: he meant the First Report of the Military Commission now lying on the table (see vol. 6, p. cliii.) He before stated, that the attention of ministers had been turned to this subject, and that a general system was preparing for the auditing of the public accounts. He now stated, that on Wednesday next he would propose a new Military Commission for investigating abuses committed in the West Indies; but as that only formed a part of the general system, he trusted he would be allowed on that day to enter somewhat at length into the nature of the measures relative to the public accounts which government had in contemplation. He also gave notice, that on Monday next he would, in the committee of ways and means, propose a new tax in lieu of the Iron tax. He concluded by moving, that the house go into a committee of supply.
[MESSRS. CHALMERS AND COWIE'S PETITION.] Mr. W. Smith
rose, to move that the report of the committee on Messrs. Chalmers and Cowie's petition should be referred to the committee. He trusted he had shewn, that he had never been disposed to give away the public money on any occasion that did not strongly call for it. But though he was now about to propose that a large sum should be voted for certain individuals, he only, in doing so, did justice to those individuals and to the country. He then stated the case in nearly the same terms as he did on a former occasion, when moving for the committee to consider the petition. In the year 1800, when the scarcity was so great, it was suggested to the committee of provisions, that a large supply of herrings might begot for this country and our colonies from Sweden. Messrs. Chalmers and Cowie undertook the business, and a bill was passed to permit the importation free of duty. About a fortnight after the bill passed, in consequence of the dispute with the Northern powers, an embargo was laid on Swedish vessels; and the effect of this. was, that the adventure totally failed, for
249
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l
l
Mr. Haskisson,
as he only meant to propose a less sum, would not oppose the speaker's leaving the chair.
Mr. Long
asked the hon. gent., whether it would be proper to go on when the house was so thin; for, as there were differences of opinion, he might find himself in a minority.
Mr. Smith
complained that this question, if it was to be asked at all, had not been asked before he had made his statement.
Lord H. Petty
expressed his wish, that the business should be deferred.
Mr. Rose
said, that something ought to be granted; but 30,000
l
250
l
l
l
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Saturday, May 17.
[MINUTES.]
The house proceeded as usual to Westminster-hall, and returned about half past three. Strangers were not admitted for some time afterwards, during which it was understood their lordships appointed Wednesday se'nnight to take into consideration the evidence adduced on the trial of lord Melville.—The Mutiny bill, the Irish Loan bill, and the Irish Treasury Bills bill, passed through committees, and were reported.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Earl Stanhope
suggesting that doubts seemed to be entertained respecting the time of publication of the trial of lord Melville, with reference to the order previously made by the house upon that subject; and an idea appearing to be conceived, that, the trial being over,publications of the proceedings might now freely take place; he thought, therefore, the sense of the house should he known to he public on that head.
The Lord Chancellor
agreed with the noble earl, that the sense of the house, on an affair of this kind, should be publicly known and clearly expressed. Such an idea as his noble friend alluded to, had been entertained, as appeared from a paper put into his hand by one of the reporters. It appeared to him, however, to be contrary to the sense and intention of the house in framing the order; and his opinion was, which he thought should be generally known, that all publications of the trial were strictly prohibited, until after the house should deliver its final judgment.
The Earl of Rosslyn
entirely concurred in the sentiment expressed by his noble friend on the woolsack, and farther, he thought, an express order should be made upon the occasion, in order that all doubts upon the point might be set at rest. His lordship then wrote an order at the table,
251
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, May 17.
[MINUTES.]
A message from the lords informed the house that their lordships had agreed to the Slave Trade Importation bill.—Bills to regulate the offices of the Receivers-General of Excise and of the Post-Office were brought in, read a first, and ordered to be read a 2d time on Monday, and printed.—Several accounts from the chief secretary of Ireland, relative to the Revenue department, were presented, and ordered to be printed.—The Franking bill was a read a third time and passed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, May 19
[MINUTES.]
Earl Spencer stated that it would be inconvenient for a noble friend of his (lord Grenville) to attend the discussion of the bill for repealing the Additional-Force act, the second reading of which was fixed for that day; and therefore he would, with the permission of their lordships, move that the order be discharged, and that it be read a 2d time the next day. Ordered.—Lord Auckland moved, that the report of the proceedings of the House in giving judgment in cases of impeachment for high crimes and misdemeanours made in the case of Warren Hastings, esq. which he then held in his hand, should be printed for the use of their lordships. Ordered.—The Mutiny, Irish Exchequer, and Loan bills, were read a third time and passed.—Lord Stanhope moved that the second reading of the bill for the Discovery of Truth be postponed until Friday se'nnight.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 19.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Hutchinson, from the bank, presented an account of all notes of the bank of England, including bank post bills, in circulation from Feb. 1,
252
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Lord Temple
stated, that this bill for regulating the intercourse of our West-India colonies with America, had been sent down from the lords in such a shape as to prevent its being entertained by the house. He should therefore now propose, that it be read a first time,
pro formâ
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Mr. Rose
said, that he considered the proposed bill as of the highest importance with regard to its effects on the commerce and navigation of the country. He looked upon it as neither more nor less than a repeal of the navigation act. It was a matter highly interesting to the mercantile interest; and he trusted that sufficient time would be allowed them to consider it, and oppose it, if they Should think proper. He implored ministers not to adopt such a measure without proper enquiry.
Lord Temple
replied, that he had no objection to, any delay being allowed that might seem reasonable; and after a few words from lord H. Petty, the motion for leave to bring in a new bill on the subject was ordered to be referred to a committee of the whole house the next day.
[TORTOLA FREE-PORT BILL.]
The report on the Tortola Free-Port bill was then taken into farther consideration.
Lord Temple
observed, that the difficulty attending this bill lay in ascertaining the precise quantity of sugar which should be allowed to be imported from Tortola into this country. He had considered the objections of the right hon. gent. opposite to him (Mr. Rose) on this head, and had endeavoured to retrieve them by several amendments, which he should propose. He then moved that the bill be now recommitted.—The house then resolved itself into a committee; when
Mr. Rose
repeated his former and added, he could see no reason for the bill; but the noble lord had made a blunder, and did not like to give up the bill; lest it should be discovered. If the noble lord would give a single good reason for the he would no more open his lips about it.
Lord Temple
said, the right hon. gent. was mistaken; he had made no blunder, and as to his motive, he could have but One, the currying into effect a. measure which justice and equity required. The ground on which he proposed the bill was to make British merchants vest their capital in Tortola, which they now do in the neutral island of St. Thomas.
Mr. Rose
said, this bill, or a similar one had been in force for 3 years, and the
254
Lord Temple
said, the bill had been repealed early in the third year, and taking the time before it operated, it had been in operation no more than one year.
Mr. Rose
insisted it had been in force three complete seasons, and if now passed into a law, might have the effect of bringing into this country an incalculable quantity of foreign sugars.—After a few observations from Mr. Vansittart, and Mr. Perceval, the clause was agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.
[IRISH REVENUES COLLECTION BILL.] Sir J. Newport
moved for leave to bring in a bill for regulating the revenue of customs and excise in Ireland. To shew the necessity of this Measure, he stated that the Customs and excise were still under the management of the same number of commissioners that had been appointed in 1704, when they produced only 284,000l., while their present Produce might be estimated at 3,500,006l. The different boards had been found insufficient to transact the necessary business With the same accuracy as in this country, and their various departnients Were not sufficiently subdivided. This had arisen from the multiplicity of the business, compared with the smallness of their number. It was also proposed to commit the trial of revenue causes to the commissioners, which would still further increase their labours. It was, therefore, intended that some addition to their number should be made. The motion was then agreed to.
[IRISH ADDITIONAL FORCE REPEAL BILL.] Sir J. Newport
moved for leave to bring in a bill to repeal the Irish Additional Force act. He observed that the act, as far as it respected this country, having been repealed, after it very full discussion, it would not be necessary for him to say much on the subject; but it might be asserted with truth, that all the objections to the act, as applicable to this country, applied with additional weight to the case of Ireland. There, parochial aid could not be generally had recourse to,
255
[TAX ON PRIVATE BREWERS.] Lord H. Petty
moved the order of the day for the house to resolve into a committee of ways and means. The noble lord then rose, for the purpose of bringing forward the tax he meant to propose in lieu of the duty which had been abandoned on Pig-Iron. He said it would be in the recollection of the house, that not many days since he had proposed to defer the further proceedings in the committee of ways and means, for the purpose of devising some tax less objectionable to the house, and to the great body of the country, than that upon Pig-Iron, which he had been induced, in compliance with the prevailing sentiment, to decline. He now, therefore, rose to propose, in lieu of that tax, a substitute, which he hoped would prove more acceptable. He considered it properly ma substitute, because it would fall principally upon one article, and one to which he thought the least objection was likely to arise, in providing for the pressing exigencies of the country. Notwithstanding the popular error, that the luxuries of the wealthy were the fittest objects of taxation under such exigency, yet it was a fact incontrovertible, that the produce of taxes upon such luxuries would be so very small, as to prove rather harassing than lucrative, and therefore it became his duty to look to one more connected with general consumption, and, of course, more likely to be efficient. On giving an attentive consideration to those objects, which promised to be productive, .and were likely to fall the lightest upon those who were to be immediately subject to the impost, he considered Private brewing as one of the fairest that presented themselves for adoption. The private brewer, notwithstanding that he paid the duty on malt, had still considerable advantage over the public brewer, and all the consumers of the liquor he produced. Private brewing was carried on to such an extent, and produced so great a saving to the individuals who adopted it, for the supply of their families, that it greatly lessened the consumption of ether beverage, the duties on which would add considerably to the public revenue; he therefore conceived the country, under its present circumstances, had a right to
256
data
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Mr. Rose
said, he did not rise to make any opposition to this tax, which originated in the suggestion of his right hon. friend, now no more, (Mr. Pitt,) who, however, intended to make an exemption in favour of farmers, who were in general under the necessity of brewing a considerable quantity of beer, in harvest time only. He wished to know if any such exemption was now in contemplation?
Sir R. Buxton
objected to the principle
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Mr. Long
could not agree with the hon baronet who spoke last, but he did not see the use of giving this option of compounding with the commissioners.
Sir W. Geary
was in favour of the composition, for the sake of keeping the exciseman out of private houses.
Mr. Vansittart
said, that as those made a return with the assessed taxes, would not be subjected to the excise, this would be a powerful inducement to them to come forward and compound in the first instance.
Mr. Huskisson
wished to know what deduction had been allowed in the calculation for those who paid no assessed taxes, and therefore were not liable to this tax? He adverted to the cases of persons who resided a great part of the year in town, and were supplied by the public brewer, but, after returning to the country, were obliged to brew their own beer. As the master now stood, these must, in many instances, pay at the highest rate of composition for the whole year, or be subject to the excise.
Mr. Patteson
could not believe that the hon. baronet was in earnest when he spoke of the hardship which this tax would bring on the lauded gentlemen. In the present state of the country, it was not to be expected that they should be allowed to have their beer at a rate so much lower than that of the labourer, who was forced to apply to the public brewer, and at present paid one penny a quart more than they did. There ought not to be such an inequality between the rich and the poor, in our present circumstances. This was not a new thing, for there was a tax of much the same nature in the time of lord North, when a deduction was allowed to the public brewer; so that this was only a new application of an old principle. As to the difficulties attending the collection of the tax, they might be done away. It might be laid on the malt, and then every one might do as he pleased; but, as to the ex-
259
Mr. Long
wished the noble lord would consider whether the excise might not be put out of the question, by imposing penalties, as in the case of the assessed taxes. He wished to know the grounds of the calculation respecting the amount to be deducted for the cottagers who did not pay.
Lord H. Petty
said he had already stated the difficulty of finding correct
data
Mr. Huskisson
thought the noble lord had calculated the product of the tax greatly beyond its reality; for, even admitting his own scale of the consumption of malt by the breweries and distilleries to be correct, still, of the remaining 750,000 quarters, a very great proportion must be consumed by poor families, whom it was the avowed purpose of the noble lord to exempt from the tax altogether.
Mr. Rose
still thought that the excise ought to be avoided. He objected, however, to have the tax laid on the malt, and stated that frauds might be committed by persons brewing in one year, what might serve them for two or three.
Dr. Laurence
reprobated the disposition manifested by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose), and those who supported him, for
260
Mr. Rose
said, he did not think he deserved the rebuke of the learned doctor, who had, in fact, found more fault with the new duty than he did. He accused the present minister of making up a great part of his budget from the objectionable taxes which his predecessor rejected, having many more eligible taxes in reserve.
Dr. Laurence
said, he only alluded to what had fallen from the hon. gent, on the present occasion, as affording a specimen of the pleasantness of that "bed of roses," to which his right hon. friends had succeeded, and that the duty they had to go through was perfectly easy!
Mr. Giles
remarked, that the duty might easily be collected under the assessed taxes, without at all coming under the excise. An hon. bart. (sir R. Buxton) had said the tax would fall peculiarly heavy on the country gentlemen. If so, they had, for many years, had an advantage over the persons residing in great towns, and this would only be restoring things to their proper balance. He hoped, too, the noble lord would turn his attention to the cyder counties, and not allow them to escape. He thought the tax, in effect, would operate as a tax on female servants; but since a tax on the home made beverage of private families was to be laid, he thought the inhabitants of the cyder counties, who substituted that beverage, almost totally to the exclusion of malt-liquor, should be subjected to a licence also.
Mr. Huskisson
thought the advantage of the private over the common brewer, to be over-rated, as the latter went more cheaply to work, on account of superior machinery.
Lord H. Petty
said, that as to the sug-
261
Sir C. Pole
objected to the tax on the cyder counties, and also to that sort of criterion of gentlemen's circumstances that was to be drawn from their keeping a carriage, which, to many men of small incomes, was frequently more a matter of mere convenience than of luxury. He considered this to be a tax on female servants. He suggested, as a better succedaneum of revenue than the beverage of poor families, the race of strapping six-feet men-milliners, who crowded the shops of the metropolis.
Lord H. Petty
replied, that females were no more taxed by this measure, than for the beer they drank; and if it was any pleasure to him, the hon. bart. might be assured. that the strapping six-feet men-milliners were as much subject to this tax as any other persons.
Mr. S. Stanhope
saw no reason why cyder should escape. He hoped, however, that the malt which grew in Scotland, a part of the country which was increasing in prosperity more than any other, would undergo a more regular rate of taxation. He maintained, that from the hospitality shewn in the country more than prevailed in London, the tax would operate with double severity on those who resided there. In one instance, however, be hoped it would be attended with good consequences —in repressing contested elections.
Lord H. Petty
replied, that if the hon. gent. was disposed to be so very hospitable, he had only to take out the licence, and then be might be as hospitable as he pleased.
Mr. T. Jones
thought the tax would, to all intents and purposes, be a tax on female servants, to which he was decidedly averse; better, infinitely, to tax those worthless animals, called men-milliners, to whom the hon. bart. had so properly alluded.
Lord H. Petty
replied, that this was no more to be called a tax on female servants, than a tax on gloves would be.
262
Mr. Manning
said, that, fond as he was of home-made beer, sooner than be subject to the excise, he would give tip his brewery. He should prefer, instead of the option, to have a direct licence, in the same manner as for killing game.
Mr. W. Smith
supported the measure, observing, that this was not a compulsory introduction of the excise, and if a man preferred it, he had no hardship to complain of. He also wished the tax not to be upon the malt in the first intance, as that would exempt the poor from the operation of it.
Mr. Fuller
approved of the tax, which, he said he had himself suggested to the treasury last year. He preferred a licence, without an alternative, and thought the cyder counties should pay their proportion to the duty.
Mr. Sheridan
said, he had not the slightest objection to the tax proposed by the noble lord, so far as it affected himself, and should cheerfully submit to it—[a laugh]. But he would not go quite so far on the behalf of his constituents at Stafford, many of whom were poor, but honest, industrious men, who were in the habit of brewing a little ale for their own families: they certainly brewed a very good sort, and he must do them the justice to say, that they did ample justice to their own brewing. He therefore could have wished the noble lord had commenced his scale of this tax a little higher in society. With respect to what had been said of females who might be affected by this tax, he heartily concurred in opinion with those gentlemen who had spoken on the subject. He would go even farther, and recommend, that not only men milliners, but all men who held situations in shops, which females could occupy, should be taxed. He then adverted to what had been stated by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose), that the budget was made up of the rejected taxes of the late minister, whom he represented as having a number of faultless and unobjectionable taxes in reserve, and thought it would shew a much greater zeal for the public service, if, instead of coming to the house with objections to every measure proposed, under exigencies, which they themselves had created, that right hon. gent. and his friends would disclose to the house, and his majesty's present servants, some of those unobjectionable and eligible taxes, which they so well knew the late minister to have in reserve.
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Mr. Baker
wished, that the time for carrying the tax into effect, might be carried beyond the harvest time. He only threw this out for the consideration of the noble lord, knowing that it would be a very great Advantage to farmers, and, in fact, what they were entitled to.
Sir W. Geary
disapproved of the measure. He did not like the excise hanging over us
in terrorem
Mr. Vansittart
argued, that the principle of the measure had been recognised in the very best of times. During the reign of queen Anne, the making of malt for private use, was allowed to be compounded; and during the reign of George II. a similar rule was allowed as to candles. These were now done away, but the principle was the same as that now proposed.—The different resolutions were then put and agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.
[NELSON'S ANNUITY BILL.] Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of the bill for making a further provision for the family of lord Nelson. On the report being read,
Mr. Fuller
observed, that the country had, by its liberality to the family of the deceased hero, evinced the respect and gratitude, which were justly due to his memory. He trusted, therefore, that neither the magnanimity of that illustrious man, nor the generosity of the empire, would be forgotten by those who were to receive profits and honours on account of the service which the immortal Nelson had performed. He would not then particularise any thing, though his object must occur to many members in the house; he hoped the representative of that family would also shew some degree of generosity, and comply with the wish expressed by the illustrious founder of the family in his last moments.—The resolutions were then read and agreed to.
[PROPERTY DUTY BILL.] Lord H. Petty
moved the order of the day for taking into further consideration the report of the Property Duty bill. On the reading of the amendments,
Mr. Vansittart
proposed a new clause, for the relief of persons insuring their lives, or the lives of their wives, and providing that, in all such cases, where the income of the party shall be less than 150l. per an-
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Mr. Wilberforce
expressed his satisfaction to find his suggestions at all attended to, but thought that the abatement had been limited to so low a rate of income, as would render it almost nugatory. Persons whose incomes were less than 150l. a year, were least likely to effect an insurance on their lives, and according to the clause which he had himself prepared to propose, the scale of abatement would extend to persons enjoying 1000l. per annum.—Mr. Vansittart and lord II. Petty said, that the allowance was intended only to relieve those who, having small salaries, effected insurances on their lives, as the only means of providing for their families in case of their death. Persons of more considerable incomes could not need the abatement.— After a few observations from Mr. Fuller, Mr. Spencer Stanhope, Mr. Vansittart, Mr. Ellison, and Mr. Babington, the clause was agreed to.
Mr. Wilberforce
then introduced a clause for granting allowances to persons having children, and moved, that "for every child, born in wedlock, of the persons whose annual income or profits shall be under 400l., a deduction of 5l. per cent. shall be allowed for every such child; and where the income of the person shall amount to 400l. and not exceed 1000l., a deduction of 4l. per cent. for every child."
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
perfectly agreed with the hon. gent. in the necessity of the clause, and thought that it even did not go far enough. The father of a large family paid taxes in numberless ways that others were exempted from. He wore several pair of shoes a-day, whilst the nobleman, who had no children, only wore one pair, and therefore some indulgence was certainly due.
Mr. Hudleston
rose and said: I am sorry the noble lord and the right hon. gent. have left it to my hon. friend to introduce a clause of this nature, as I really think their inflexibility on the point must have a direct tendency to bring into hazard the general success of the measure: that it should succeed, must be equally the wish of all; for the object of the bill is neither more nor less than the furnishing the means of protecting the country against time most serious dangers it ever had to encounter. The public are aware of these dangers, and that great efforts, and of
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Mr. Vansittart
expressed his disapprobation of the proposed exemption, on the ground of general policy. For three years, exemptions had been tried under the former acts, and were uniformly found to defeat themselves and the operation of the tax. In some districts, the duty for 1803 was not even yet collected, nor were the assessments made; and the answer to enquiries into the cause of this delay was, that the commissioners had so many appeals to hear, so many claims of exemption to investigate, and experienced such difficulty to understand the clauses, that it was impossible to proceed faster. How extremely desirable it was, then, to simplify, by broad and general enactments, the operation of the act, would be obvious to the house. A man of 200l. a year, with 2 children, would, by the exemption proposed, be entitled to a drawback of 10l., and thus the produce of the tax would be totally defeated.
Sir H. Mildmay
argued in favour of the exemption.
Mr. W. Smith
also ably supported the clause. The 10l. which would be saved by it to the man of 200l. a year, with a family, were almost ten drops of his heart's blood. To a person without a family, it was comparatively no object. If, as was often the case, a man married, possessing what he saw would be just means enough on which to support a family, would the house, by taking any thing from him like what this tax would go to deprive him of, at once mar his calculations, and ruin his hopes? There were some improvements in the present bill, as far as it was less inquisitorial than the Income tax, which had preceded it, in not obtaining a disclosure of the whole circumstances of the subject, except in case of exemptions; but the curtailment of the allowances, particularly as far as regarded children, he thought extremely oppressive. We ought not to give up all considerations of justice and humanity, merely for the sake of making a new tax simple or productive. The hon. mover came forward as the advocate of a meritorious part of the community; but in opposing it, he considered himself the advocate of the community itself. The hon. gent. then contended, that though in theory this exemption seemed desireable, yet, as
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Mr. Bankes
supported the clause. He was sorry to hear the hon. gent. contend that the interest of the many should be set against the interest of the few. His opinion was, that they were to consider what was the most equitable mode, and that was to make the burthen press as equally as possible on all.—The house then divided. For the clause 26; Against it 73; Majority 47.
Mr. T. Jones
then made a few remarks on the frequency of surcharges, which he considered as a very great grievance; and concluded, by bringing up a clause imposing a penalty, and allowing costs to be awarded by the commissioners for vexatious surcharges.
Lord H. Petty
approved of what the hon, gent. had proposed, but begged leave to call his attention to a clause in the bill, which he read, and which made the collectors subject to a penalty, not greater than 50l. for every surcharge, on conviction in one of the courts above.
Sir H. Mildmay
supported the clause, as it was absurd, he said, to suppose that a day-labourer could have redress, if he was obliged to seek it in one of the courts at Westminster.—After a conversation between Mr. W. Smith, and Mr. Ellison, who supported the clause; and Mr. Rose, Mr. Fellowes, capt. Harvey, and Dr. Laurence, who opposed it; Mr. Jones declared, that he would not press it, and the clause was negatived without a division. The bill was then ordered to be read a 3d time on Wednesday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 20.
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]
The order of the day being read, for the second reading of the Additional Force Repeal bill,
Earl Spencer rose
and observed, that if there were no other ground upon which to justify a call upon their lordships to pass the present bill, than the experience of 22 months, during which the country had had sufficient proof of the utter inefficiency of that measure, for the repeal of which the present bill was introduced, that alone would have been a sufficient reason in his mind, why the house should, without further discussion, agree to the 2d reading,
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Earl Camden
said, that as he was the person who had originally proposed for their lordships' adoption the bill which it was now proposed to repeal, he felt it his duty, thus early, to rise in the defence of that measure: though he was ready to admit the bill had not been so productive as was originally expected, yet it certainly had been, in a very great degree, much more so upon a comparative scale than his noble friend had seemed disposed to admit. He was not, however, so wedded to the bill, as to insist upon retaining it at all events; but still he thought it would behove their lordships to pause before they consented to repeal a bill which had been productive of considerable advantage, until at least they saw some measure proposed as a substitute for it. Much as had been said against what was termed the oppressive principle of this measure, he begged to call to their lordships' recollection, that previously to the original adoption of this bill, such was the military state of the realm, and so inadequate the produce of recruiting by ordinary means, that the government and legislature found it absolutely necessary not only to retain, but to extend the compulsory system, which had been originally adopted in the militia, and which was afterwards followed up in the Army of Reserve act; a measure he highly approved. He believed it would not be expected of any minister to ensure the success of any untried measure proposed by way of experiment. The most that the wisdom of man could do was to suggest a plan the most likely to be successful in practice; and he believed it would be admitted, there never was any plan which, in theory, promised to be attended with more certain and rapid effect. However, he would acknowledge, that the result had certainly not been equal to the expectations formed of its success, owing in a
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Lord St. John
thought the best substitute for the act would be to repeal it, and to leave the recruiting service to act freely, and without impediment. He contended that the act had, in its operation, been found totally inefficient; and that it was absurd to suppose that parish officers could be converted into recruiting officers with any beneficial effect. It was true, that inspecting officers had been sent round the country to teach them their new duty, but, the parish officer only holding his situation for a year, no sooner was be taught in this new military school how to act in his new character, than he went out of office, and another succeeded, equally ignorant, who had to go through the same course of instruction. The act, he contended, had been invariably found either nugatory or oppressive in its operation, without producing any benefit whatever to the army, but, on the contrary, impeding and embarrassing the recruiting service; and therefore he should support its repeal.
The Earl of Westmorland
said, he objected to the repeal of the Additional Force bill on the strongest grounds which at such a dangerous crisis could be stated: he meant that it would be a prelude to the entire dissolution of our military establishment. Unhappily for this country, when the war commenced, we were in an unprovided state—[a cry of 'hear, hear,' from the ministerial side]. Since the assertion at
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Earl Spencer
spoke to order. Nothing had been said about the limited service, and it formed no part of the question before the house.
Lord Mulgrave
thought his noble friend was perfectly in order. It was a military measure, and he was correct in examining the immediate consequences of the repeal; Which must be the adoption of some other device.
Lord Holland
admitted he was, if the plan of limited service were the necessary effect of the repeal: but the one had no such influence on the other; they were considerations intirely distinct.
Lord Hawkesbury
was inclined to think the allusion of his noble friend was not am improper reference to what had been said in another place; it was adverting to a matter of notoriety all over the kingdom But should it be thought by noble lord not strictly parliamentary, a single mono-syllable, a qualifying
if,
The Earl of Westmorland
proceed d. He was afraid, he said, that in stating such
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Lord Sidmouth
said, that, for reasons which some of their lordships would think sufficient, he was disposed to have been silent on the present question, but the noble lord who had just sat down had left him no alternative; he had adverted to him in a way that it was impossible not to notice, and he hoped he should reply in a manner consistent with the respect due to their lordships. He was desirous not only to reply to what had devolved within the purview of the subject, but to what more immediately and personally affected himself. The noble lord asserted that the country, at the commencement of the war, was in an unprovided state, and he rather more than insinuated, that the culpability for its weakness was attributable to him (lord Sidmouth). It was true that, at the beginning of hostilities, the militia had been disbanded; but their lordships would recollect, that this was not in consequence of any act of his majesty's ministers, but by the operation of the law. He said, by the operation of law, not because there was any positive regulation on the subject, but the men were released from their regiments, because the statute was so loosely worded, that, construed in the popular sense, it
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Earl Camden
explained the qualification with which he had made the remark.
Lord Sidmouth
resumed, that when the bill was under their deliberation before, he entertained the same opinion of it he did at that moment: he knew that it must be inefficient. Last year, from the convic
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Lord Mulgrave
supported the amendment. He disclaimed every wish to oppose ministers, except in such cases as he thought their measures of a mischievous tendency. Could he be persuaded that some fate measures would be substituted in room of the bill proposed to he repealed, he would immediately abandon his objections, however unanswerable he might think them; but the silence of ministers on this subject, after they had so long a period for deliberation, was in the highest degree unaccountable. Another strong argument also, notwithstanding his attachment to the bill, would have great influence with him, could he be convinced that any other salutary measure would be adopted, to abandon his opposition; which was, his conviction that no measure, however good in itself, could be attended with its full success in the hands of persons who were hostile to it. Till he was assured, however, that some measure was to be adopted, he felt himself obliged to give the repeal his negative in the strongest terms. As a compulsory measure, his lordship thought the present the least oppressive. If it had not succeeded so well till the beginning of this year, as had been stated, the circumstance must be attri
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The Earl of Derby
contended, that the act was impracticable; that it operated a tax upon the different parishes. He explained and justified the conduct of the lieutenancy of the county of Lancashire, where every effort was made, but in vain, to give effect to it. He maintained that the increase that had latterly taken place, was not owing to the bill being better understood, but to the means the late government had taken by their missionaries, sent to the different districts, to direct men to be raised by any means, and that thus, in the very raising of those men, the law had been grossly violated, and the practice of crimping encouraged.
The Earl of Rosslyn
argued against the measure, and maintained the necessity of repealing the act on account of its inefficiency, even if nothing was brought forward in its place. It had in his opinion, no thing of compulsion in it, but vexatious expence and inconvenience.
The Duke of Montrose
wished that miniters, instead of acting upon the defensive, had come boldly forward and suppoted the whole of their intended plan; but here seemed a reluctance in his majestys ministers in that house to uphold the
Lord Sidmouth
observed, that, from a conviction of the inadequacy of the Army of Reserve at, one of the measures of the last adminiration, of which he formed a part, was to bring in a bill for its suspension.
The Earl of Darnley
gave the bill his most hearty sport. He congratulated their lordships on this measure being brought before them. He had opposed the
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Lord Hawkesbury
said, that if there was any thing in the bill before their lordships, which particularly called for his opposition, it was the abandonment of the principle of he act it proposed to repeal. If it was an insulated measure, he possibly might be induced to relinquish his objections; but when it was notorious that it was brought forward as part of a system, he could not, until the whole of that system was before the house, be induced to give his vote in favour of it. Why did not the noble lords, who were so anxious now to disconnect it with any other measures, and discuss it on its own merits, bring it forward 3 months ago, when they first came into office? His lordship next adverted to the different parts of that system, as embracing the volunteer force, the militia, and the army, and deprecated any change in the practice of ballot, or in the usual terms of military enlistment. He earnestly entreated ministers to pause before they gave sanction to an experiment, which in its developement might effect the complete destruction of the present army. He trusted that if they did persevere in it, it would be so modified as to remove the great and manifold dangers which would inevitably result from it. The military establishment, he contended, was greater by 25,000 men than at any period of our history; and at no period, had such efforts been made for increasing the regular force, as during that administration of which he formed a part, and of which a noble viscount was at the head, when no less than a disposable force of 50,000 men had been created, in the course of a few months.
The Earl of Carnarvon
said he thought, that the Additional Force bill contained the greatest mass of absurdities he had ever known. It had not produced any men but by means of the illegal mode of putting it into execution. He therefore should support the second reading of the bill before the house.
Earl Spencer
replied, and observed that, allowing every possible merit and efficiency to the army of reserve act, he could
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The Earl of Radnor
stated, that his chief reason for voting against the additional force act was its extreme injustice. Had it produced twenty times the number of men it did, his objections to it on that ground would still exist.
Earl Grosvenor
would vote against the act, conceiving it to be unequal, and inefficient; but would not pledge himself to support the rest of the intended military plan.—The house then divided on the motion that the bill be now read a second time.
Contents 71;—Proxies 26 97
The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, May 20.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Baker
presented a petition from the maltsters of Hertfordshire, against certain provisions in the act of the 43d of the King.—Ordered, on the motion of lord Morpeth, that there be laid before the house, an Account of the Estimate of the probable amount of the revenues and charges of India for the year 1805–6, so far as the same can be made out; together with the interest of the debt, and the expenses of the government of St. Helena and the Prince of Wales's Island.—Sir J. Newport brought up the bill for regulating the collection of the Irish revenues, and for appointing additional commissioners of the revenue in Ireland; also a bill for the repeal of the Irish Additional Force bill; which were read severally a first time.—Mr. Vansittart presented an account of the amount of arrears and balances in the hands of the receivers of the revenues of the crown lands, and of the collectors of the land tax.—A message from the lords informed the house that their lordships had agreed to the Scoth Judges' Salary bill, without any amendment.—Sir W. Geary presented a petition from certain maltsters in the county of Kent, against certain regulations of the act of the 43d of the king respecting the wetting of malt.—Mr. Huskisson having given notice of a motion for the production of a document, which would shew the grounds upon which the board of Treasury were induced to relieve lord Melville from the interest on the ba
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[DEBTS OF THE NABOBS OF ARCOT.] Mr. Hobhouse
moved the second reading of the nabobs of Arcot's creditors bill. On the question that the bill be now read a second time,
Mr. Whitshed Keene rose
to call the attention of the house to this subject, to which it had hitherto paid little attention, though it had drawn millions out of the exchequer of England. By the statute for renewing the Company's charter, the public became a partner in this firm, and was to participate to a certain amount in the profits. Every gentleman, at that time, did expect, and the public had a right to expect, that the time of participating would have arrived before this. This charter was a sort of deed of partnership between the country and the company; but, although the country had hithero acted the part of a sleeping partner,
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Mr. W. Dundas
submitted, whether it would be desirable to have the time of the house occupied with hearing long reports read on every individual creditor on the list?
Mr. W. Keene
apologized for occupying the attention of the house to so long a statement, but he thought it necessary to state the probable origin of the great debt which sir John M'Pherson now claimed. The above, he said, was the first report that threw any great light on all the transactions in India; and he read himself a few pages more, in which it was stated, that sir John M'Pherson undertook to get an act of parliament passed, to accommodate the interests of the nabob; and for that purpose came over to England, and offered a present of great value to the duke of Grafton, the then prime minister. This present having been rejected by the duke, sir John M'Pherson thought it might be more effectually bestowed on the sub-ordinate ministers; and stated to them, that what he had then to offer, made only a part of a much larger sum, which would
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Mr. Johnstone
said, that he had not originally intended to speak upon the question, but could not sit silent when he heard the character of a most respectable friend of his, and to whom he owed many obligations, aspersed in this manner. He thought it was extraordinary that the hon. gent. should have chosen to go nearly 40, years back for transactions, with which to charge sir John Macpherson. As to the reports on which he grounded his accusation, there were some reports, and that which had been read was one, which deserved no more credit than the reveries of Robinson Crusoe. The sense that was entertained by the country, of the conduct and services of that gentleman, was directly opposite to the statement in that report. Long subsequent to those transactions, he had been made governor of Bengal, and had introduced savings, or reductions, to the amount of 1,200,000
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Mr. W. Keene
in explanation, said, he had made no attack on any man, but only read transactions from the records of the house, which threw a light on the present question.
Mr. Johnstone
said, this was a letter from lord Macartney, who had been prejudiced against sir R. Sullivan.
Dr. Laurence
expressed his surprise and regret, that any gent. should suppose this subject had become obsolete, or ever would become so. It was necessary that that enormous mass of corruption that had been carried on in India, should be sifted and exposed. As to the distance of time, it was nothing; the present debts were modest remains of claims, which those who made them now, dared not bring forward at the period alluded to. He thought therefore, the house and the country were much indebted to the hon. gent. (Mr. Keene) for what he had done; and though sir John M Pherson had since that period been made governor-general of India, he thought it necessary the house should enquire, why a bond for 100,000l., dated in 1796, and given to him by the nabob of Arcot, should not have been brought forward sooner? If it should turn out to be
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Lord Castlereagh
was of opinion, that a good deal of extraneous matter had been introduced into the discussion of the present question. The house were not now called upon to sanction the agreement entered into between the East-India company and the creditors of the nabob. That agreement had already been concluded, and commissioners had been appointed under it, who were employed in carrying it into execution This agreement had also been entered into by the parties who were competent to form it; by the creditors of the nabob on the one side, and by the East-India company, under the sanction of the board of controul, on the other. He could not see, therefore, how it was competent for parliament to interfere with this agreement. The only question before the house was, whether they should lend their authority to the better execution of the agreement, by enabling the commissioners to administer oaths, for the purpose of rendering their enquiries more complete and satisfactory? He admitted that there was a very considerable mixture of fraudulent claims with others that were well founded. But the commissioners were appointed for the very purpose of separating the fraudulent from those that were just; and the present bill was intended to enable them more effectually to accomplish this purpose. He admitted that the public were interested in the claims made on the East-India company, and might indeed be considered as parties in the agreement. But he could not think that they had the sole right of appointing a commission for adjudicating the claims of the creditors, without the express consent and appro
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Mr. Francis
said, that the noble lord appeared to him to have delivered some very new and extraordinary doctrines, to which he wished to call the attention of the house. But he thought, from the present thinness of the house, that the discussion could not now take place in a very satisfactory manner, and he therefore wished the debate to be adjourned to some future day. He therefore moved, that the farther consideration of the bill be deferred to this day fortnight.
Mr. Hobhouse
observed, that if the ground of the hon. get's motion was the thinness of the house, he feared that this ground would not be removed by a fuller attendance on a future occasion. But, if it was the general wish of the house, that the discussion should be postponed, he should not object to the motion, though he could see no reason for so long a delay as a fortnight.
Dr. Laurence
said, that there were several subjects of great importance demanding the attention of the house, be
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, May 21.
[MINUTES.]
The Irish Debenture bill, and the Franking bill, were read a 2d time.—The Additional Force Repeal bill, passed through a committee, and was reported without amendment.—On the order of the day being read, for taking into consideration the petitions of the respondents in the appeal relative to the guardianship of Miss Seymour, the lord chancellor, after observing that cases respecting the right of guardianship peculiarly demanded an early hearing and decision, moved, that the appeal should be heard on Tuesday, the 3d of June. The duke of Norfolk suggested, that the business connected with the trial in Westminster-hall, would not probably be terminated soon enough to allow of fixing so early a day. The lord chancellor then proposed, that the appeal should be heard on Tuesday, the 10th of June; which was agreed to.—The marquis of Sligo moved for copies of certain proclamations issued in the West Indies, respecting the conquered islands. Lord Holland and lord Auckland objected to the motion, on the ground that the bill, to the object of which these papers referred, having passed the house, the papers moved for by the noble marquis could be of no use. The marquis of Sligo agreed to withdraw his motion, giving notice that he should move for the production of these documents in the next session of parliament.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, May 21.
[MINUTES]
On the motion, or Mr. Graham, a new writ was ordered to be issued for a member for Westmoreland, in the room of sir M. Le Fleming, deceased.—The inspector-general of imports and exports, presented an account of sugars imported from the Virgin islands.—The Irish butter, and Irish Distillery bills, were read a 3d time and passed.—The Irish Revenue Collection bill, was read a 2d time, and ordered to be committed the next day.—Sir J. Newport moved the commitment of the Irish Customs bill, but post-
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[POOR LAWS.] Mr. Whitbread
rose to give notice, that early in the next session of parliament, he should have the honour of proposing some regulations for the amelioration of the poor laws of this country. He hoped to be indulged in a few Words of explanation of his intentions, beyond what was usual upon giving notices in this way. The poor laws of this country, had grown into a system so complicated and embarrassing, and were become such a heavy and increasing expence upon the country, that some revision of them was absolutely necessary. He had had a plan of this nature in contemplation for some years past, which had occupied much of his attention, but he found it extremely difficult to reduce to a shape, in which to offer it for the consideration of parliament. One of two things seemed necessary in this case, either to simplify the present poor laws, by some short, clear, and comprehensive plan, or to suggest some new regulations for remedying their defects, and checking the abuses which continued to obtain under them as they now stood. To neither of these modes would he at this moment specifically pledge himself; but he should, however, early in the next session, propose to the house some plan upon the subject.
Mr. Rose
said, that he too had had in contemplation, for a considerable time, a proposition of a similar nature, and that an intimation of his purpose had been given to the house above two years since, which, however, from a variety of other indispensable avocations and impediments, he had hitherto been prevented from urging before the house. He was extremely, glad of the intention, now avowed by the
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Mr. Whitbread
answered, that certainly a purpose so very important had not escaped his attention, but would form a leading feature of his plan.
[BARRACK ABUSES.]Lord H. Petty
rose, and observed, that before he proceeded to the statement of the business, of which he had given notice, he trusted the house would indulge him with their attention for a few moments, while he said something respecting what had lately passed in the house concerning the barrack department. It would be in the recollection of the house that, when the hon, gent. behind him (Mr. Robson) brought forward some motions on that subject, one of them had been agreed to, while the previous question had been moved and carried with respect to the others. This, the house would recollect, had been done in the absence of all explanation, as to the object which the hon. gent. had in view, that was intelligible to him, or he believed, that could be intelligible to any person in the house. He had moved the previous question, with a view to induce the hon. gent. to come forward with the necessary information, and also with the intention, in case he should still refuse, to examine into the business himself, and find it out either with or without his assistance. He now flattered himself, that he had discovered the object of these motions. He found that they related to transactions, which took place in 1805, respecting the barns, hired as barracks, in the division of Sandown Bay, in the Isle of Wight, which were paid for at a very extravagant rate, when a building for barracks was offered at a much more reasonable expence. He would, therefore, under these circumstances, propose all the motions of the hon. gent., respecting which, the previous question had been before carried, and also add a new motion, which would relate to the barrack-master, who, it appeared, had hired these barns at an extravagant rent, and made an improper report, with regard to the building offered as a barrack. It was right that he should be called upon to explain his conduct, with respect to this
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Mr. Robson
rose to second the motion, and at the same time to express some astonishment at the conduct of the noble lord throughout the whole of this business. Feeling it to be his privilege and right, as a member of parliament, to call for certain documents, respecting the extravagant expenditure of public money, he had given 4 days notice of his intention to move for those documents, that there might be no intention imputed to him of wishing to take the house by surprise. He accordingly made his motion, which he prefaced by such observations as he thought could leave no doubt upon the mind of any gent. who heard him, as to the object of his motion, and the intention with which he meant to follow it up. The noble lord thought proper to resist his motion, and to vote for the previous question; but now, when the extravagance of the barrack department, and the extraordinary opposition of the noble lord to his motion for papers to prove that extravagance, were in the mouth of every man who walked the public streets, the noble lord himself moved for a list of those very documents, which he verily believed was a copy of the identical motions which had been refused upon a former night. Really he thought it but reasonable to expect, that the noble lord's motion this day would have been accompanied by some apology for a conduct so unaccountable.
Lord Henry Petty
answered, that for the house he should certainly offer no apology for refusing, on such grounds as it thought fit, to comply with the motion alluded to; and for himself he thought it sufficient to state, that he was not, on the former night, made acquainted with the hon. gent.'s object, so as to justify him in assenting to his motion. He now was acquainted with the purposes of his motion, and therefore moved to produce the papers in question.
295
Mr. Robson
rose to explain, but was proceeding to a length which occasioned a general cry of chair! chair! upon which, the speaker reminded the hon. member of the order of the house, and he sat down.—The motions were then agreed to.
[WEST-INDIA ACCOUNTS BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
pursuant to his notice given upon a former day, of a. motion for instituting a new commission of enquiry into the system of military expenditure in the West-India islands, rose now for the purpose of bringing it forward. He said, that although the immediate object of the motion he intended that night to propose, was the repeal of the act now in existence for instituting commissioners for enquiring into the system of military expenditure in the West-India islands, he hoped it would pot be thought obtrusive by the house, nor altogether irrelevant to the great topic of general enquiry into the expenditure of the state for some years past, that he should take that opportunity of stating the outlines of the measure now in the contemplation of his majesty's government to bring forward, for a purpose so important and desirable; and if, in so doing, he should find it necessary to trespass at some length upon the attention of the house, he should feel too high a respect for the justice and character of parliament, to suppose that any apology was necessary on his part for calling the attention of a British house of commons to one of its most sacred, important, and indispensable duties, namely, that of examining into the expenditure of the public money. In calling, then, the attention of the house to this subject, he should feel it necessary to advert to the modes by which the public accounts were heretofore examined and controlled. Previous to the establishment of the board of commissioners for this purpose, instituted under the auspices of a late right hon. gent. whom he had succeeded, the important office of examining and auditing the public accounts of the receipt and expenditure of the nation, was vested in two officers of the crown, and so continued down to the year 1785. But those officers, like many others, were charged with duties so far beyond the reach of their exertions, and vested with powers so inadequate, that although their services were not to be deemed as entirely useless, they were certainly very inefficient. The noble persons who had then, for some time, held those
296
297
298
l.
299
300
l.
301
302
l.
l.
303
Mr. Rose
said, he did not mean to oppose the motion; but he thought it necessary to offer a few observations, in elucidation of some particular points. When the business of the public accounts was so much accumulated in the American war, as to throw the audit greatly into arrear, commissioners were appointed to examine, and report what measures should be taken to expedite the examination. That commission was entrusted to men of great abilities, who exerted themselves with becoming diligence; but it did not appear that any alteration in the mode of auditing the accounts was thought necessary, till the administration of his late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), to whom the credit of that improvement was wholly due. As soon as the money was issued to the public accountants, it was from that time set down against them. There was, besides, a power to call for their accounts and vouchers, and to examine both with a strict attention. The fact was, the duty was suffered too much to devolve on the deputies; but that, too, was remedied by the bill of his right hon. friend. The comptrollers of the army accounts had been always in the habit of examining all the issues to the army; it was therefore fit and proper to make them parties to a final audit, with the objects of which they were, in many instances, so particularly conversant. It was not the noble lord who had first discovered, that the expenditure for hospital stores was not sufficiently attended to. He himself had mentioned it long since, and at the same time that there was an expence of 11 millions in the secretary at war's accounts unexamined and unenquired into. Thus, it was not Mr. Trotter alone that was in the situation of being his own comptroller, but the secretary at war. He was in the hearing of gentlemen, in whose presence he had mentioned this to his late right hon. friend;
304
305
Lord H. Petty,
in explanation, said, that he had stated it as one of the objects of the alteration, to compel the public accountants to bring in their accounts to be audited. It was not from the three new Commissioners, or even from twenty-three, that he Would expect much benefit, if there Were not an alteration of the principle and of the system.
Mr. Fox
in answer to some allusion made by a right hon. gentleman, to his having supported the original auditors, lord Bute and lord Sondes, said, that he considered it not very fair to quote against any member of the house the speeches which newspapers might have put into his mouth about twenty years ago.
Mr. Yorke
said, that he conceived the cause of the delay in examining the public accounts was, that the concerns of the country had grown too great for those arrangements which might have done twenty years ago. About 20 years ago, as he was informed, ten or twelve clerks were all that were kept in the War-office; whereas, at present, there were filly or sixty, and that number was found unequal to the business. Regimental accounts were things which required very minute and accurate examination; and there were now near 10,000 regimental accounts which were either totally unexamined, or examined in a very cursory manner. He did not, however, think that any blame was imputable to any body. if he were disposed to criticise the speech of the noble lord, he Would say, that it appeared rather to have been made with a view
ad captandum vulgus.
Mr. Secretary Windham
stated the manner in which accounts Were examined in the War-office, and in which Mr. Trotter's accounts had been examined. At the War-office, they only compared the account sent in with the vouchers, and only saw that the order was issued, and the articles furnished. This mode of examining accounts was very far short of what was now proposed by the noble lord.
Mr. Bathurst
thought he Should be wanting in the duty he owed to those who had been employed in the War-office, when he was at the head of that department, if he were to hear it said, unanswered, that there were 30 or 40 clerks at the War-office,
306
Mr. Rose
in explanation, said, that he did not mean to say, generally, that the persons in the War-office neglected their duty; but only that this part of their duty, the examining of accounts, had not been performed.
Mr. W. Dundas
vindicated the conduct of the persons employed in the War-office, who, as he conceived, strained every nerve in the execution of their duty; but the great increase of business was such, that the existing establishments were not equal to it.
The Secretary at War
confirmed this statement, and said, that the difference between the business 20 years ago, when he had held the same situation, bore no more proportion to the business now, than that of the most inferior tradesman to the first-rate merchant.
Lord Castlereagh
thought that the remarks of his right hon. friend (Mr. Rose) had been taken up in a manner which they did not warrant. What his right hon. friend complained of was, that the business had been arrested in the offices to which he had referred, which complaint had not been controverted; and therefore he thought the suggestion of his right hon. friend should be attended to.
Lord H. Petty
observed, that the suggestion of the right hon. gentleman had been anticipated by the plan which he had just proposed.
Mr. Rose
said, that Would not answer his purpose; what he wished Was to establish a complete audit.
Mr. Robson
rose to express his most hearty and sincere thanks to the noble lord, for having explained so ably the atrocious corruption which had been carried on for the last twenty years, in the expenditure of the public money. He hoped and trusted the noble lord would appoint a fourth commission, to enquire into and return the names of those members of the different administrations which had, for the last 20 years, suffered such monstrous abuses and corruption to exist. He hoped, however, that since the noble lord had taken it up,
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[ARMY ESTIMATES.]
The house resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which were referred the papers presented on the 15th by the secretary at war.
The Secretary at War
then rose to move his resolutions grounded on those estimates. The right hon. gent., in many parts of his speech, spoke in so low a tone, that it was impossible to hear him distinctly. The estimates of the present year differed, he said, but little in their amount from those of the preceding year. He could not withhold his tribute of praise from the illustrious Commander in Chief, under whose auspices the army had been raised to its present excellent state; and which it was the object of his majesty's government to preserve, and, if possible, to augment. In preparing the estimates for the present year, they had turned their attention to what all men, conversant in military affairs, knew to be one of the great leading principles of economy, and that was to make the disproportion between the real effective army, and the number voted, as small as possible. If it did not appear in the present estimates that there was a considerable diminution of expence, it was because many augmentations had taken place in the course of the last year, particularly in the cavalry, the ordnance, and the waggon-train, a considerable diminution in the expence of which was now proposed. In the cavalry, the regiments were to be reduced from 1000 to 800. The foot-guards were to be reduced from 140 men a company to 130, and the waggon-train was to undergo a diminution of 1728 men. The difference which this would make in the estimates of the present year Would be as follows: saving, by reductions in cavalry, 255,000
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l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
308
General Tarleton
requested the right hon. gent. to state the items which made up this total sum. He could understand how the 363,000
l.
l.
The Secretary at War
continued, and said that he hoped, in the course of his statement, to satisfy the hon. general. He should first proceed to state the total amount of our effective force at home and abroad, including the troops serving in India; and the second battalions. He should take their number at the following periods: 1st of January 1806, 240,953; 1st of May 1806, 250,994; making an increase of 10,041 men. It appeared, therefore, that while our army was increased by above 10,000 men, the expence of it would be diminished by near half a million. His majesty's government might therefore take credit for having provided an army on much cheaper terms than their predecessors. After the head of guards and garrisons, the next head which presented itself was, that of the regiments serving in India; but, as the East-India company paid the whole expence, he should not state them in the estimates. Next came the recruiting establishment, for the regiments which came under the same observations. The next head was, the recruiting staff contingencies for the supply of the army. This had been estimated last year at 50,000
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309
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l.
General Tarleton
commented upon several parts of the statement of the right. hon. secretary. It was intended, it seemed, very much to reduce the cavalry. This measure he highly disapproved of. The late government had added two troops to each regiment of cavalry, and in so doing he thought they had acted most wisely. British cavalry enjoyed a high and deserved reputation. They would be found most useful either in defence of our own country in case of invasion, or in any foreign expedition that might be determined upon; and he therefore characterised their reduction as a very extraordinary proceeding. The mode by which the right hon. secre-
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In vino veritas.
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Mr. Whitbread
observed, that the hon. general had talked of every thing but the army estimates. He had even introduced naval subjects, and had gone out of his way to cast a particular blame on his noble friend at the head of the admiralty, and a general blame on the whole of his majesty's ministers, whom he had chosen to term drones. He would ask whether the noble lord (H. Petty), from whom the house had just heard such a display of talents, had shewn himself a drone? Was his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Fox) a drone? Was
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Lord Castlereagh
said, he did not intend to enter generally into any discussion on the military policy of the country: he rose
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Mr. Secretary Windham
said, the noble lord had railed in a very good style; his terms were strong, and well selected for his purpose. Had there been as much sound argument as there was coarse abuse, it would have been one of the most powerful harangues that ever was delivered in parliament. At the same time he could not help saying, that the points in his speech, to which it was necessary to make:any reply, were but few in number, and required but little exertion of mind to answer. It was curious to notice the manner in which the noble lord, and the hon. general beside him, happened to support each other in opposition. The noble lord concurred with the hon. general, in condemning what he called a false economy with respect to the arrangement of the cavalry; and yet he claimed credit for the contemplation of a similar arrangement on the part of the late ministry. Now it was impossible that the noble lord's argument upon this subject should cut both ways; the door must be either shut or open. As to the noble lord's allusion to the sentiments uttered by him (Mr. W.) on a former day respecting the volunteers, he had only to state, that the sentiments ascribed to him by the noble lord and others were materially different from those which he had really expressed. Any opinion the house had heard from him on the occasion referred to, still remained completely unchanged, and the misrepresentations of his opinions which had gone abroad should not disturb him, They must pass away with the common calumnies of the day. If asked what he meant to do with the volunteers, he would answer—to leave them precisely where they were, with some exceptions which could not be injurious to their efficiency, them character, or their feelings, while they must tend to the public benefit. The volunteers were not to be deprived of their adjutants, their serjeant-majors, or their drill-serjeants, who were material to their discipline. If it were proposed to impose any burthen, or offer any offence to the volunteers, then the clamour raised upon the subject might be excuseable. Instead however, of calling upon them to be more frequent in their attendance on parade, or perform an increased duty, it was proposed to remit their attendance, and call upon them to do duty much less frequent
318
seriatim.
Mr. Perceval
contended, that he had not misrepresented the right hon. gent., whose subsequent explanations had, however, materially softened the sentiments he had originally expressed. He insisted that the right hon. gent. had declared himself an enemy to the ballot, insomuch that when he found himself under the necessity of resorting to it, to enforce his training system, to avoid the odious word, he had preferred to use the word "lot," leaving out the syllable "bal." When it was recollected that the right hon. gent. had com-
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Mr. Secretary Fox
rose just to say a few words on what had fallen from the learned gent. who had just sat down. It was not necessary to review what had taken place in a former debate respecting the misrepresentations of the sentiments of his right hon. friend. There was no great grammatical difference, he admitted, between "relax" and "remit," but they might be used so as to have a far different import. It was rather extraordinary that the use of the word "relax" by his right hon. friend, should still be adverted to, especially as on the very day when he had so expressed himself, he had explained what he had intended to say. It reminded him of an old saying, "that there was sometimes no better way of uttering a falsehood than in the words of truth." In the long parliamentary experience he had had, he had never known any speech so misrepresented, and so industriously circulated, as that of his right hon. friend. The misrepresentation had been circulated over the whole country. He had had correspondence on the subject from various quarters. Amongst others be had a letter from a respectable gentleman, which would throw some light on the question. The letter adverted to Mr. secretary Windham's plan, and a supposed prevalent opinion that the volunteers were of no use whatever; which the writer denied, asserting, that only three things were wanting to make them a valuable, serviceable, and efficient force,—to take away permanent duty, the June allowances, and the inspecting field-officers.
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321
Mr. Canning
entered at some length into a defence of what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend, and contended that he was not chargeable with those misrepresentations ascribed to him. With regard to the panegyric which the right hon. secretary had pronounced on his friend, it was rather curious to remark, that after he had delivered a similar encomium on an hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) intimately versant in the affairs of India, that hon. gent. had left the treasury bench, and seated himself on the opposite side of the house. He thought that the military plans were introduced too tardily, and now proposed to be discussed with too much precipitation. After the long delay which had taken place since their first proposal, people were now asking whether they would take place at all or not; and to fix on Wednesday next as the day for their discussion, would be taking the house by surprise, since many members would not have returned after the holidays, on that day. He wished also that it should be understood, when the discussion took place, that the whole system proposed should be brought under review. He suggested that the first Monday after the recess was the very earliest day on which the discussion could with any propriety come on. He entertained doubts whether a call of the house might not be expedient, preparatory to a decision on one of the most important measures that ever came before parliament, and in that case it could not come on in less than a fortnight, The protraction of the discussion which had already taken place, should not now be remedied by precipitation. He thought it would also have been but fair, that some estimate should have been laid before the Louse by the right hon. secretary, of the expence likely to be incurred by the additional pay to the army, and by the levy-en-masse. Were a statement of this expence to be laid before the house, he believed that those savings, for Which ministers took so much credit to
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Mr. Secretary Fox
in explanation, said, that he would certainly take the sense of the house, whether the Mutiny bill should proceed to a committee on Friday se'nnight, if any opposition was made to that proposal. It was perfectly in the right hon. gentleman's option to debate the clause in what manner he pleased; but he must not be angry if he and his hon. friends should decline replying to any speech which he might deliver, that appeared to involve topics extraneous to that immediately before the house. Since the union with Ireland, no call of the house had taken place; and he could not see that it was called for by the present measure, in preference to others of equal importance that had been discussed in the house during the last session.
Mr. Yorke
was anxious that more time should be granted: for he was not aware of what clauses might be proposed in the Mutiny bill; or what was the ultimate decision of the right hon. gent. respecting the leading features of his plan. What was the term and limit of service that was to be proposed to men when enlisting? Were they to have the powers of claiming their discharge in time of war? Was it equally to affect the cavalry and artillery with the rest of the army? Was it to extend to the army now existing? Surely these were important and complicated questions, to the discussion of which gentlemen could not be expected to come prepared so soon as Friday se'nnight.
Mr. Secretary Windham
fully admitted the right of the right hon. gent. to put such questions, and replied, that the limitation of service was meant to apply to the corps of artillery, and the cavalry, as well as the infantry of the regular army. With regard to the period of war, and when on foreign service, he had proposed that an addition of six months to the stipulated term should take place; and it might, perhaps, be proper to give a still farther ex-
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Mr. Yorke
wished for a clearer understanding of the right hon. secretary's views. At present he understood him that his plan of limited service extended to the cavalry and artillery, and was for seven years.
Mr. Windham
observed, that the term of seven years did not apply to those branches.
Mr. Yorke
observed, that he understood the extension in time of war was to take place for two or three years.
Mr. Windham
saw no reason to think the original time stated by him would be altered, but that an extension in the power of the crown, in time of war, might be made without prejudice to the general effects of the measure. The time he had stated for the artillery was twelve years.
Sir James Pulteney
was of opinion that the volunteers would lose more by the decay of their discipline, than the country could gain by any savings proposed. He conceived that permanent duty was highly necessary to the improvemet of their discipline, and that some kind, of military inspection was also indispensible. As to the ballot, he was glad to find that it was not to be absolutely abolished, but he feared that even its temporary suspension would render it more difficult to resort to it again. As to the allowance for clothing to the volunteers, 30
s.
s.
Mr. Hiley Addington
observed, that the allowance was only 20
s.
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General Tarleton
wished to know what was intended respecting. the West-India regiments?
Mr. Rose
stated that allowances much larger than 20
s.
Mr. H. Addington
said, that 20
s.
Mr. Windham
said that 30s. was the allowance in June, and 20
s.
Mr. Matthews
said, that unless the allowances to the volunteers were kept up, nay increased, it was impossible the establishment could be kept up. At first, subscriptions were liberal, and the general zeal came in aid of the funds necessary for the support of the corps; but it could not be expected that the subscriptions would continue, or that gentlemen would again be at the very great expence they had incurred for the volunteers with which they were connected. How then was the difference to be made good, and how could the establishment last without provision for its maintenance?
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
confirmed the observations of the hon. member, and said, that unless something was done to defray the expence, the volunteers must disband of themselves, though nothing else were done.
Mr. Rose
said, it was impossible that corps should be supported in the manner they first were raised, and provided with funds. Twenty shillings in no case could clothe a man. He knew so by having tried in the cheapest manner; and coat, waistcoat, and breeches, independent of other. articles, cost 24
s.
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Mr. Windham
said, every body knew how the volunteers were raised and supported; but was it proposed that government should make up all the expence which would be required in consequence of the failure of other funds? Clear it was, from what had been said, that if the volunteers disbanded, it was by the force of circumstances, and not from any thing government had proposed.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
had not meant to contend, that government should maintain the whole volunteers when their subscriptions failed; but it would be dangerous to let the whole disband themselves; and therefore an additional allowance, at least to some of them, was necessary. At the breaking out of any new war, our reliance must be on the volunteers, and therefore the spirit should be cherished and the system maintained.
Dr. Laurence
said, it now clearly appeared, that those who had been so long extolling the volunteers, and charging others with undervaluing them, now admitted that the system would be at an end of itself, without large public aid: so it was not what government did, or proposed, that caused the volunteers to disband. It was expressly stated that they must disband, if they did not obtain support from the public purse.
Mr. Fox
could not but observe, that this was giving a new and important turn to the debate. It was no longer the plan and speech of his right hon. friend that had discouraged and disgusted the volunteers; but it would now appear, that if they are to receive only the same allowance that was granted them by the former administration, they must go right about and disband themselves. Was it then the plan of the right hon. gent. now no more, to have increased that allowance, and that under a conviction, that without such an increase the volunteers would not continue their services. Indeed, the former administration felt this difficulty; and Mr. Pitt, like every man of sense, must have foreseen what it would ultimately come to; but did the late administration come forward and propose such increase? He might therefore congratulate himself, and his right hon. friend, that, after all the hue and cry that had so industriously been raised against his measures, as tending to discourage and disband the volunteers, it now was confessed by those who reprobated them as so destructive of the volun-
326
Lord De Blaquiere
observed, that though the want of means might tend to reduce the volunteer establishment, he did not think it could he denied, that certain of the regulations of the new plan (some of which he approved) would operate as discouragements to the volunteers, and to the subscriptions too, which otherwise might have come to their aid.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
restated his former argument, that farther allowances must be made to the volunteer corps, if the system was to be kept up. And what was to be allowed, should be so apportioned as to keep, at least, part of the volunteers together. He gave an instance of the alacrity of his own corps in the West Riding of York, which, on a false alarm, mustered, and partly marched. 15 miles within, fifteen hours, and out of 600 men only 9 were absent. He said, that permanent duty was more agreeable to the volunteers than duty at home.
Mr. Matthews
repeated, that it was necessary something should be done for the support of the volunteer corps, if they were to be kept up. He complained of a certain report from an inspecting officer, respecting the corps which he commanded, and which was printed and on the table. He said that it had been altered, and things put in, which were not in the original he had seen.
General Tarleton
stated, that it was an error that had crept in, and he had taken care to have it corrected and announced in the district.
The Secretary at War
remarked, that the report alluded to had been printed from the originals sent to the adjutant-general's office, and if there was an error, it must be an error of the press.
Mr. Shaw Lefevre
said a few words about the reports of inspecting officers, some of which were offensive to the feelings of the volunteer corps.
Mr. Ryder
knew the question of farther issue for clothing the volunteers had been under the consideration of the late government; but nothing was decided. It could not be doubted, however, that Mr. Pitt, who was so convinced of the utility of the
327
Mr. Fox
replied, that he knew not what Mr. Pitt would have done; but he complained of the disingenuous mode of debating the business that was practised by gentlemen on the opposite side. If the plan proposed tended to destroy the volunteers, it was but fair to state that as an objection; but it was unfair to object to that as a fault of ministers which they had nothing as yet to do with, and was part of Mr. Pitt's system.
Mr. W. Smith
said, in the place where he lived, it had long since been notorious, that if the volunteers did not get assistance, they must disband for want of funds.
Mr. Ellison
declared, that the plans of the right hon. gentleman had caused the utmost disgust throughout the country and among the volunteers.
Mr. Windham
replied, that if that effect had been produced, it must have been by misrepresentation.
Mr. Ellison
asserted, it was from what he had heard in the house, and what was circulated in the newspapers, and not by any misrepresentations.—The resolutions were then read and agreed to; and the house being resumed, the other orders of the day were disposed of.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, May 22.
[MINUTES.] The Bishop of Killala
took the oaths and his seat.—The Irish Spirits warehousing bill was read a second time, and committed for the next day.—The Irish Debenture bill passed through a committee, and was reported.—The committee on Sir John Gordon's Divorce bill was postponed till that day three weeks.— The Lord Chancellor stated, that the cause of Graham of Gartmore, against Isabella, Countess of Glencairn, stood appointed for hearing; and that, as the respondent was his sister, he desired their lordship's permission to absent himself from the house during the discussion. His lordship then withdrew, and Lord Ellenborough called in the counsel, and heard Mr, Alexander for
328
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]
On the motion for the third reading of this bill,
Lord Eldon
rose and apologized for troubling their lordships; but, having been a member of the two administrations in which the bills were passed, which were now proposed to be repealed, he thought it his duty to state shortly his reasons for voting on the former night against this measure. The Additional Force bill, he observed, had been resorted to in consequence of the enormous price which at length came to be given for substitutes under the Army of Reserve act, and, compared with the latter act, with respect to penalties, it was lenity itself. He could not, however, conceive the reason why the penalties under the Additional Force act were to be given up, and the money already paid into the Exchequer to be returned, whilst, at the same time, the fines remaining under the Army of Reserve act were to be enforced; which latter act was also repealed by the present bill, though scarcely a word had been said about it. He would not advert to measures which were not before the house, or to places which had not been mentioned in that house; but if the army was to be left for its supply to ordinary recruiting, such a measure was directly in the teeth of the experience of several years past, and, he was convinced, would be insufficient for the intended purpose. He could not help also remarking, that notwithstanding the charges against the administration of which he was a member, of weakness and inefficiency, yet those who had succeeded them had proposed the repeal of a measure for recruiting the army, without being prepared to bring forward any substitute in its place.
The Earl of Roslyn
thought the noble and learned lord had misconceived the provision in the bill, relative to the fines under the Army of Reserve act, which, in his opinion, only applied to the fines imposed upon the parishes, for the non-appearance of men after they had been balloted, and not to any other description of penalties.
Lord Eldon
was still of opinion, that the
329
Earl Spencer
expressed his surprise, that the noble and learned lord should make an objection to a particular clause in the bill on the 3d reading, after suffering it to pass through the committee
sub silentio.
functus officio;
The Earl of Hardwicke
objected to that part of the bill which went to give up the penalties under the Additional Force act, as it might, at a future period, be deemed necessary by parliament, to enact some compulsory measure for the purpose of recruiting the army, and then this provision would operate to encourage persons in neglecting to carry such an act into execution, and to prevent any zeal or exertion from being displayed. He voted against the repeal of the Additional Force act, finding that, as a necessary consequence of it, a bill was now in the House of Commons to repeal the Additional Force act for Ireland. With respect to this latter bill, he suggested that the parishes in Ireland were not charged, as they were in England, with the maintenance of the families of militia-men whilst on service, that being done at the charge of the public revenue,
330
Lord Holland
thought the noble earl had given a curious reason for voting against the repeal of the English Additional Force act, With respect to the penalties, he contended, that those who had contrived to raise men under the act, had done it by evading its provisions. Such conduct might be loyal, as was said on a former night; but it was contrary to the provisions of the act; and it was therefore highly unjust, that those who had endeavoured to raise men by complying with the provisions of the act, and had from necessity failed, should be on that account subjected to the penalties.
Earl Spencer
expressed a willingness to pay every attention to the suggestion of the noble earl (Hardwicke) when the bill, to which he had alluded, came before the house.—The bill was then read a third time and passed, and a message ordered to be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint them therewith.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 22.
[MINUTES.] Lord John Townsend
presented, by command, an account of the extraordinary services of the army, from December 1805, with a duplicate thereof. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Alderman Combe brought up the bill for the better regulating of skins and hides in London. Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time.—Mr. Foster moved, that the house should,the next day, go into a committee to consider the Irish mail coach acts.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the Irish malt-duty bill; which was agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time the next day.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee of ways and means, relative to certain Stamp Duties in Ireland, which was agreed to; and an instruction was ordered to be given to the committee appointed to prepare the Irish stamp-duty bill, to make provisions agreeable to said resolutions.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee of supply the preceding day, relative to the Army Estimates; and the various resolutions were agreed to, and bills ordered accordingly.—The bill for repealing the Irish Additional Defence act was read a second time.
[IRISH CUSTOMS DUTY BILL.] Sir John
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moved the order of the day for the house to resolve itself into a committee on this bill. The house having resolved itself accordingly, on the resolution being read, that there be granted a duty of 28s. a ton on iron,
Mr. Foster
said, he had not supposed the right hon. baronet meant seriously to persist in the proposed duty on iron, after a similar tax had been rejected in England, on account of its impolitic pressure upon all the manufactures. of the country, and its consequent extension to the poorer classes of the community. If this was found to be a weighty consideration in England, how much more ought it to operate, when the comparative poverty of Ireland was contemplated! This proposed duty would cause an increase of twenty per cent. in the price of iron, and prove almost ruinous to the infant manufactures of that country, as no countervailing duty was allowed on their introduction into England. A drawback was provided, in the case of the small duty of 3s. per cwt. on sugar; and yet to countervail the much more material tax upon iron, no increase of drawback was allowed. The measure, if carried in its present shape, would defeat itself, as not a shilling of revenue would be derived from it,: as it was only calculated to produce 15,000
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Mr. Rose
thought it was impossible the right hon. baronet could press the tax, as even in case of providing a sufficient countervailing duty, if the manufactures of Ireland were like those of England, the mixture of foreign with native iron would prevent its being embraced. He was sure the tax would produce nothing; and he was also of opinion, that in estimating the duty on sugar, the right hon. gentleman had calculated upon a greater average price (50s. per cwt.) than it would be found to bear. It was altogether a new and extraordinary measure, to make a provision of temporary war taxes to pay a permanent loan; and even the provision made would fall greatly short of what it was estimated at.
Sir John Newport
said, that from the observations made by the right hon. gen-
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Mr. Foster
said, that the situation of England and Ireland, was such, that, although the former could afford to relinquish the advantage of a countervailing
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Sir John Newport
said, he did not mean that it was not competent to parliament to extend that duty; but he would ask, since the right hon. gentleman seemed so strenuous for the countervailing duty, why it had not been called for in the case of the duty on cotton wool, which had been imposed since the union?
Mr. Rose
said, that the duty was only a penny per pound, and not an object of great consequence, and he thought no omission ought to be pleaded as a precedent for not now pursuing the right course.
Mr. Corry
said, he was glad to see the principle of the union so well agreed upon. Undoubtedly, a countervailing duty ought to be laid in either country, for a duty imposed on the other; and, therefore, the tax now proposed would have the effect of equalizing what, by the increase of duty is this country, since the union, without a countervailing duty in Ireland, had been made unequal. He hoped the right hon. baronet would make the duties in Ireland perpetual, instead of annual and uncertain, as they now are.
Lord Castlereagh
spoke at some length on the necessity of immediately remedying any breach or omission of the enactments of the act of union. He thought the tax on iron would have the effect of destroying the produce of the duty already imposed.
Mr. Grattan
said, he was not a friend to the duty upon Iron; but he submitted to it as the best in the choice of evils. When gentlemen objected to a tax because it affected the manufactures, and condemned the measures by which the right hon. baronet was to raise a considerable revenue, would they be so good as to point out what course of taxation could possibly be adopted, by which the manufactures of the country would not be affected? He would not accede to the duty on iron, if it violated a principle of the union; but it did not appear to him to do so. The duty on sugar, as sufficient was provided without it to cover the loan, was imposed because a duty was also imposed, in England; and he
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[UNAUDITED ACCOUNTS.] Mr. Rose
preparatory to a motion which he proposed to bring forward to-morrow, relating to the Public Accounts at present unaudited, observed, that a noble lord (H. Petty) had, last night, detailed to the house such a series of accounts, respecting the issues and disbursements of public money for military expenditure, during a period of above twenty years, as could not fail to excite great anxiety in the mind of the public, as well as in that of the house, that this subject should undergo the most minute and radical investigation. In that anxiety no man more deeply participated than himself: he was desirous that the business should be probed to the very bottom; that whoever were the persons upon whom the duties of examining and adjusting those accounts devolved, should be brought forward, and made to account for such an extraordinary delay, and apparently gross and unpardonable negligence; and if they could not satisfactory account for their conduct, that they might be subjected to that shame and reproach which should appear to be due to it. With a view, as early as possible, to accelerate that enquiry, he should, to-morrow, move for several documents, in order to shew to the house, distinctly, what were the accounts that had been proceeded upon, and what were not, with the real sums under each distinct head of military expenditure still unaccounted for. He had no objection to name, now, the papers for which he intended to move; and if the noble lord, after hearing them specified, wished to add any more, he might move for them at the same time, as it was his sincere wish to give every aid in his power to the enquiry. The papers for which he meant to move were, Accounts of the sums issued from the Exchequer to principal accountants, and by them to sub-accountants, to be disbursed for military purposes, from the close
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[ELECTION TREATING BILL.] Mr. Tierney
moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the Election Treating bill, to which bill he understood he was to expect the opposition of a right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox). He did not wish to press the house, now, to a discussion upon the subject, as there was another subject pending, of more urgent importance. But, if it was allowed that the bill should pass the present stage without discussion, those gentlemen who were opposed to the bill might take the debate upon the third reading, and name their own day for that purpose.
Mr. Secretary fox
could see no objection to the course pointed out by the right hon. gentleman; upon which, the amendments were agreed to, and the bill ordered to be engrossed, and read a third time on Monday se'nnight.
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Lord Temple
moved the order of the day, for the house to resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider of the motion of Monday last, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill for authorising his majesty in council to allow the importation and exportation of certain goods and commodities, in neutral ships, in time of war, into and from his majesty's territories in the West Indies and continent of America."
Mr. Rose
hoped that the noble lord would not press to a discussion, in so very thin a house, a measure of such importance as this, so deeply affecting the interest of the merchants and ship-owners of this country, and repealing the Navigation act, under the salutary operation of which, the commerce, the prosperity, and the naval strength of this country, had attained their, present superiority. He deprecated any proceeding upon a measure of such vital importance in the absence of so many commercial gentlemen, whose interests
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Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that if ever there was a which ought not to give any alarm either to any particular class of men, or to the country at large, this a that bill. He considered the measure in question to be totally Misconceived by the right hon. gent. in the view he seemed to consider it. It really did not go to affect the commerce of the country, or the commercial interests of any body of men in it. Neither did it repeal any part of the Navigation laws: it was merely meant to vest that power exclusively in the hands of the king and council by law, which had been, for thirteen years past, assumed by the governors of our West-India Islands, without law; for which, undoubtedly, they had incurred high responsibility; namely, to suspend for a time, under the pressure of inevitable necessity, the operation of the Navigation laws in favour of British ships in the ports of their respective islands; .and to permit the inhabitants of those islands to be supplied with provisions, and certain other articles of indispensable necessity, with which it was impossible, under a variety of impediments, for British ships to supply them, and without which a great part of their inhabitants must be reduced to famine, arid, in other instances, to the utmost distress. The measure now proposed, therefore, was to limit the power to safe hands, of dispensing, in cases of actual necessity, with the operation of the Navigation laws, in the ports of those islands; and to guard against the possible abuses of that power to which governors might be importuned, under the false insinuations of interested persons. It repealed no law; it subverted no principle; and, in fact, would do no more than guard a privilege in his majesty's hands, which had been, for a series of years past, exercised by West-India governors, assumed from necessity, and for which they had been uniformly indemnified by parliament.
Sir W. Curtis
admitted, that this power had been assumed by Wept-India governor, in cases of urgent necessity, under a heavy responsibility, from. which had they shrunk, he should have thought them highly reprehensible. But thought he considered them justly intitled to the indemnity they had received, he was decidedly against legalizing a principle that So directly militated against our Navigation laws and must so materially affect the interests of
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Lord Temple rose
and said, that the bill for which he intended to move, and which had already passed the other house of parliament, was precisely what his right hon. friend had described it to be; involving no commercial interest of this country; repealing no law connected with our commerce or navigation; but simply placing in the safe hands of his majesty in council, the exercise of a privilege, which was heretofore constantly assumed by the West-India governors, without law; namely, the privilege of empowering those governors, upon the fair proof of existing necessity, to receive, in American ships, that supply of provisions, and other necessaries, which, in time of war, it would often be impossible to supply in British ships; and without which, the immense population of their negroes, on whose labour and industry the prosperity of those islands so much depended, must often run the risk of perishing. Owing to the interruption of the intercourse of the colonies and the United States of America, during the American war, it had been ascertained, that about 15,000 negroes had died for want, or from being improperly fed, in the island of Jamaica alone, in the course of six years. But the supplies from America did not rest solely on the ground of the necessity of procuring food for our colonies in the West Indies. There was a necessity of resorting to America for articles to enable the colonists to convey their produce to the mother country. It had been ascertained, by practice and experiment, that that part of the system of the Navigation laws, passed under circumstances and in times perfectly dissimilar to the present, should be suspended in time of war, especially such a war as the present, where the extent of coast in the power of the enemy rendered it necessary to employ so large a portion of the British shipping to watch them, the crews of which might otherwise add to our mercantile naval force. That the Navigation laws could not, in this instance, be adhered to, was clear, from the circumstance of the governors of the colonies having been under the necessity of suspending these laws, upon their own responsibility, ever since the year 1793. The
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Mr. Rose
said, he felt it rather uncomfortable to enter upon this most important subject in so thin a house. No one respected the talents of the right hon. secretary of state (Mr. Fox) more than he did; but he thought he was not sufficiently informed upon this subject. The noble lord had said, that this bill would repeal no law. Why, it would certainly repeal the Navigation laws to a certain degree. But he was still more alarmed at what had fallen from the noble lord, when he said, that there was an indispensable necessity for this during the war. He would therefore state how the matter really stood. By the regulation of the trade with America in 1783, it was permitted to import certain American articles into the colonies, in British ships, manned, for the most part, with British seamen. There were representations Made by Jamaica, and some other colonies, that the supplies could not be sufficiently provided by British ships, The matter was investigated before the privy council, in 1784. Both sides were heard; and the result was, that the representations were unfounded, and his majesty was advised to continue the regulations as before, and they were continued thus till 1793; during which time the colonies were supplied with provisions, lumber, &c, as well, and as cheap, by British ships, as they could be by American vessels, The report
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Lord Temple
could not accede to the proposition of the right hon. gent. He saw no reason for appointing a committee up-stairs, to enquire into the facts stated in the preamble, which could not be disputed.
Mr. Secretary
For observed, that there was but a small part of the right hon. gentleman's speech of which it was necessary to take any notice. The right hon. gent. had said, that this was not a matter of right that could be claimed by the Americans on the principle of the law of nations. He most completely concurred with him in that point; and, in all the discussions that had taken place with the Americans on the subject of trade, he never heard such a monstrous and extravagant claim stated, or even hinted at. Now, as to the bill itself, the right hon gent. had said, that he (Mr. Fox) was not informed upon this subject. As to any thing respecting the repeal of the general principle of the Navigation act, he certainly way uninformed; but this was not a repeal of the general principle. He used the term "repeal." The right hon. gent. must have surely meant "suspended;" for the in
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Lord Castlereagh
said, that the right hon. secretary had made out no case of necessity, nor even of expediency. He was, however, considerably relieved from his alarm, after what had been said respecting the American
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Sir W. Young
thought the bill could not trench upon the Navigation act, because it was only to be resorted to in the case of absolute necessity. It was well said by a learned lord, whom he recollected in that house, that, "what necessity creates, necessity limits." There was now a statute, by which the exportation of corn to the West Indies
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Sir C. Price
wished to go into a committee of enquiry, in which the effect of the proposed measure, on the Shipping Interest, might be fully considered. The decrease of ship-building in Britain, from the year 1790, was most alarming, as would appear from some accounts on the subject moved for by him. The colonies could now be effectually supplied by British shipping.
Mr. Rose
recommended that the bill Mould go to a committee. Many ship-
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Lord Temple
said, ministers had communicated with intelligent persons in the Irish. provision trade, and others in different branches, and they had the mortification to learn, that the means would be inadequate Without a bill of this kind.
Mr. Rose
very much doubted if they had Consulted the old-established merchants, men of probity and fortune, who were best acquainted with this subject.
Sir W. Young
explained.
Mr. Barham
said, the question was, if the decision was to be removed from an improper to a competent tribunal? and, sensible of the fitness of this transference of authority, be should support the bill.
Sir W. Curtis
wished for a committee of enquiry to ascertain how the shipping interest would be affected by the measure. Our ships and our sailors were the wooden walls of old England. He thought that the employment of the mariners and capital of the country was promoted by this trade, and that it ought not to be resigned without deliberate enquiry.
Mr. Jeffery
asserted, that Newfoundland alone was sufficient to supply five times the quantity of fish required for our West-India colonies.—After a few words from lord Temple, and Mr. Perceval, the question was put and agreed to, and the house being resumed, the report was brought up, and leave was given to bring in a bill.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, May 23.
[MINUTES.]
The royal assent was given by commission to the Irish Loan bill, the Irish Treasury Bills bill, the Scotch Judges' Salary bill, lord St. Vincent's Annuity bill, the Additional Force Act Repeal bill, the Slave Importation Restriction bill, the West-India Indemnity bill, the Admiralty Jurisdiction bill, and forty private bills.—
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 23.
[MINUTES.]
The Speaker informed the house, that the royal assent was given by commission to the Irish Loan bill, the Irish Treasury Bills bill, the Scotch Judges' Salary Augmentation bill, lord St. Vincent's Annuity bill, and several private bills.— Sir J. Newport brought in a bill, which was read a first time, for allowing persons to volunteer from the militia of Ireland into the regular regiments.—Lord Howick brought up a petition from the royal college of surgeons, praying for parliamentary assistance to enable them to procure a place for the better arranging and preserving the Collection of the late John Hunter, esq.; which was referred to a select committee.—Mr. H. Addington gave notice, that he should, immediately after the holidays, bring forward a motion respecting the returns which had been made by the inspecting field officers, of the progress of the Volunteers in their discipline, and their fitness to serve with the troops of the line. The object of his motion would be to do away, as far as was in his power, the dissa
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[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.]
The American Intercourse bill was brought in and read a first time. On the motion for the second reading.
Sir W. Curtis
expressed a hope that the noble lord would take time sufficient to consider how this bill would affect the Shipping interest. He hoped the second reading would not be pressed forward rashly.
Lord Temple
said, that the house would do him the justice to believe that he had considered it in all its bearings before he introduced such an important measure into the house. He saw no ground whatever for the alarm which seemed to have been excited on this subject. But he did not wish to press forward the bill improperly, and therefore would attend to the suggestion of the hon. baronet, as far as respected urging it on rashly. He would fix Monday se'nnight for the second reading.
Mr. Perceval
was glad that the noble lord had yielded thus far, and he hoped that he would further relax and allow an investigation of facts; if it were for no other purpose than to remove the prejudices, supposing them to be so, which had excited the alarm to which he had alluded. When they could get at the materials, it would give them great satisfaction if they could come to the same conclusion to which the noble lord had come.
General Tarleton
agreed in sentiment with the hon. baronet. He expected every hour instructions from his constituents on this point.
Lord Temple
replied, that nothing which he had heard yesterday, or at any time, appeared to him to shew any occasion for enquiry. He agreed to the delay of the second reading till Monday se'nnight, but farther he could not go.—The second reading was accordingly fixed for Monday se'nnight.
[ARMY ESTIMATES.] General Tarleton
rose, purely for the purpose of suggesting to the right hon. the secretary at war, the propriety of having the Army Estimates
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The Secretary at War
was not aware of any objection to the wish of the hon. general, but that it was wholly unprecedented to order the estimates to be printed after the resolutions founded on them were voted. He could not see what information the hon. general could derive from the estimates with respect to the subject of this particular enquiry, and on this ground be could not agree to the proposition.
General Tarleton
replied, that there was a paper relative to eight West-India regiments maintained at a considerable expence. He had asked the right hon. secretary for the war department, whether these negro regiments were to be included in the limited service, but had got no answer.
Mr. Huskisson
thought, that when such novel and important military discussions were expected, every information that could be given, ought to be produced.
Lord Temple
observed, that the estimates would be printed in the journals; to which
General Tarleton
replied, that it was not for the satisfaction of members in three or four years, but for the next debate that they were wanted.
Mr. Secretary Windham
said, the motion was not sanctioned by precedent, or the natural course of things. The gentlemen on the other side said, the army estimates were of importance. When were they otherwise? They said, they were now different from what were usual; that also was the case in many former years. The estimates were upon the table, and any gent. that pleased might have recourse to them; as to the eight West-India regiments, he did not think that particular point alone could require the additional printing of 6 or 7 hundred copies.
Mr. Perceval
thought it extraordinary that there should be such reluctance to print the papers, for he heard no argument against it, which would not equally apply to any motion for printing. If the whole of the case had already been disposed of,
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[VOTE OF THANKS TO THE MANAGERS OF THE IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] The Secretary at War
rose, pursuant to his notice on a former day, to submit a motion to the house, on which, he trusted, he should have the good fortune to meet their concurrence. His motion referred to the great and important subjects to which the attention of the public and of parliament had so long been directed; he meant, the Impeachment preferred by that house, in the last session, against Henry lord viscount Melville, for high crimes and misdemeanours. That Impeachment being now, as far as that house was concerned in the prosecution of it, brought to an end, and understanding that it was customary, and conformable to former proceedings, that the house should express to those to whom the care of that prosecution had been committed, the sense it entertained of the manner in which they executed that trust; he had risen for the purpose of calling the attention of the house to what they had witnessed in Westminster-hall. He believed that the Speaker himself, as well as every member of that house, who had attended during the trial, was sensible, that whatever might have been the merits or services of former committees of management, none had ever discharged the important duties delegated to them, with more credit to themselves and their constituents, with more ability, diligence, and industry, or in a manner more deserving of the marked approbation of the house. In the selection of the persons who were to compose the committee, it was natural for the house to fix upon those in whom they observed the greatest zeal in the cause, and the most vigorous activity in the prosecution of the business. It was natural for them to look, in the first instance, to his hon. friend near him (Mr. Whitbread), whose manly conduct, unceasing diligence, and unabated perseverance, during the whole of this arduous proceeding, had been such, as to merit the thanks of that house, to entitle him to the gratitude of the country, and to insure to him the veneration of posterity. In addition to that hon. gent., the house had selected from amongst all the descriptions that compose their body,
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The Speaker
then calling on the Managers, who stood up in their several places, addressed them, in a most impressive manner, as follows: "Gentlemen, this house, upon the result of grave and important enquiries into the administration of the Public Expenditure, came to the resolution of entering upon the most solemn of all its functions; and of resorting to that transcendent power, by which it can bring to judgment all misdeeds done by the highest servants of the crown, and most effectually avenge all inroads made, or attempted to be made, upon the liberties of the people. The conduct and management of that power is delegated to you; to prepare and arrange the proofs of complex and intricate facts; and to make good the charge of high crimes and misdemeanours against a noble person, whose elevated and splendid situations in the state rendered his actions of signal example, for good or for evil, to all persons entrusted with the public treasure. Throughout the progress of the Trial so undertaken, we have seen with peculiar satisfaction, its proceedings conducted with an exemplary diligence and dispatch, which have rescued Impeachments from the disgrace into which they had nearly fallen, and have restored them to their antient strength and honour. Upon your part, we have also witnessed, that unwearied industry, and singular sagacity, with which you have pursued and established the proofs;—that boldness, so properly belonging to the Commons, with which you have maintained the Charge; and that powerful display of argument and learned eloquence which have spread the light of day over dark, secret, and criminal transactions. The issue of the whole is now with the Lords; and, whether that be of condemnation or of acquittal, it rests with a tribunal, which, so far as depends upon human institutions, premises the fairest hopes of ultimate justice. But, be that issue what it may, your part is accomplished. In the discharge of your duty, you have satisfied the expectation of the Commons; you have obtained the high reward of their approbation and thanks; and, in obedience to their Commands, I am now to acquaint you with their resolution; 'That the thanks of this house be given to the members, who were appointed the Managers of the Impeachment against Henry lord viscount Melville, for their faithful management in their discharge of the trust reposed in them.'"
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The Secretary at War rose
and said, that though he was disappointed in his hopes of unanimity on his former motion, by one dissentient voice, yet he believed that in the motion which he was now to submit, he should not be opposed by even that one. The motion was, "That Mr. Speaker be desired to print the speech which he made to the Manager of the Impeachment of lord Melville, in consequence of the resolution of the house."—Agreed to,
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Mr. Perceval
allowed that the precedents not only justified, but even called for a vote of thanks in this stage of the business. At the same time, for a variety of reasons, which he would not now enter upon, he thought that it might be extremely expedient to consider, whether these votes of thanks ought to be passed, till the final termination of the business of impeachments, by the judgment of the lords. He would not enter now upon the subject in detail, because this would be falling into the evil which he deprecated; but after the judgment of the lords was given in this case, he would certainly bring a motion before the house, to prevent any consideration of a case of Impeachment, by a vote of thanks while it was before the lords, and before they had given their decision.
Sir John Newport rose
to make some observations on this notice; when the Speaker put a stop to further discussion, by informing the hon. baronet that there was no question before the house.
[UNAUDITED ACCOUNTS.] Mr. Rose
adverted to the statement made by a noble lord (H. Petty) on a preceding day, which had caused an uncommon sensation in the public mind, as the noble lord had charged his majesty's late government with gross neglect in not calling in balances and arrears of public accounts, to the enormous amount, as it was stated, of 450 millions. From this sum, however, he was at once enabled to strike off a great deduction, by observing, that ninety millions of it were the accounts of the bank, and 250 millions the accounts of the pay-office; and considering that the noble lord, who for twenty years of the late government had the superintendance of that department, was also now at the head of his majesty's government, he could not suppose that any insinuation could be intended in that quarter, notwithstanding the extraordinary tone in which the noble lord dwelt upon these points. The only instance of misconduct in these respects, was that of a gentleman,
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Lord Henry Petty
said, the right hon. gent., in the long speech he had just made, had not denied or combated any one of the statements he had made on a former night, only with the exception of Mr. Trotter. The right hon. gent. had stated that the greatest part of the unsettled and unaudited accounts which he had mentioned as forming a vast mass of arrears of accounts, were from the Pay-office; that the gentlemen of that office were respectable men, of the most unblemished and honourable characters; and that one of the paymasters-general of that period, was the noble lord now at the head of the treasury. Certainly, said the noble lord, from the political situation and connection in which I stand with the noble personage now at the head of the treasury, and the individual friendship and esteem I have long entertained for him, it is impossible I could mean to cast the slightest insinuation or imputation on the honour, integrity, or attention to business, of that noble lord, whose character has always stood as high as any man's in the kingdom; but, I am sure I can, with great truth and justice, appeal to the house on that point, if I did not expressly state, that I did not mean to cast the smallest imputation on any public accountant; and, as a proof of this, I particularly mentioned the case of lord Macar
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Mr. Perceval
said, that as no objection had been, or was to be made to his right hon. friend's motion, there were but two points on which he would trouble the house with a very few observations. From the manner in Which this business had been stated by the noble lord in that house, an idea, had gone abroad, that the sum of 450 millions, which the noble lord had mentioned, was, for the greatest part, arrears which were recoverable, and it had, caused a great sensation in the mind of the public. The noble lord had raised a great expectation in the public mind, that there were great balances due, which might give relief to the public burthens; whereas, those vast sums were no more than arrears of ac-
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Lord H. Petty
was surprised, that any such mistake should have occurred, as that of taking arrears of accounts for arrears of balances; and, in a speech of considerable length, when talking of arrears, which word frequently occurred, that the instant arrears were mentioned, without the addition of accounts, it should immediately be taken to mean arrears of balances. It was, he thought, that kind of mistake which no one could well make, who did not wish to fall into it.
Mr. Perceval
in explanation, said, that a certain morning paper had stated the arrears to be arrears of balances to a vast amount.
Dr. Laurence
reprobated the misinterpretation of the arrears of accounts into arrears of money; and explained the mention of Mr. Trotter, as applicable only to the complex situation in which he stood.
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Mr. Huskisson
adverted to a statement in a morning paper, supposed to be in the interest of government, in which the noble lord was described as representing the amount of the accounts unaudited as recoverable to the public.
Mr. Wilberforce
thought his right hon. friend under him (Mr. Rose) a little too tender, as to persons supposed to hold balances in their hands; and his learned friend (Mr. Perceval) had distinguished between arrears of balances and arrears of accounts unsettled, as if the latter were not a great evil. He thought accounts long outstanding might create numerous abuses, and produce the worst consequences. He gave the noble lord, therefore, great credit for the attention he had paid to the subject, and the plan by which it was proposed to check abuses of this kind in future.
Mr. Paull
differed with those gentleman who thought these arrears of accounts. He thought, on the contrary, there were arrears of balances also; he believed the noble lord was of the same opinion; and he had but little doubt, that large sums would be recovered. In the barrack department alone, an arrear of balances had been lately discovered, by the commission appointed for investigating military accounts; and that no less a sum than 93,000
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Lord Henry Petty
said, he had expressly stated that to be his intention, and be should not depart from it.
Mr. W. Dundas
vindicated the conduct of the clerks in the War-office. Since 1793, 898 regimental accounts had been settled; 208 were under examination. The bankruptcy of the great agency house of Ross and Ogilvie had produced great delay. The institution of monthly for half-yearly payments had also retarded the accounts; but he hoped great facility would be given by the quarterly payments now adopted. I
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The Secretary at War
wished every means to be used for facilitating the examination of the public accounts, and particulary those in the War-Office; but was by no means so sanguine as to imagine, that the arrangement proposed by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) would be so effectual as he appeared to suppose. He observed, that in the whole course of the conversation which this motion had produced, there had been no opposition to the motion itself; and therefore, the right hon. gent. who made it had no reason to complain, if his object should not be ultimately attained. He must, however, be allowed to observe, that he wished the house not to separate without affording to him an opportunity of saying, that there was no idea of intending to defame Mr. Trotter. No such intention was entertained by his noble friend. He had stated, very fairly, the different characters in which Mr. Trotter had been employed by government, ever since the American war; during which time, said the right hon. secretary, I believe he has discharged his duty to the public with very great and distinguished ability; but the very capacity in which Mr. Trotter acted, rendered it almost impossible that there should not be great confidence in that officer; and the security, for his discharge of the duties of his office, must rest entirely on his integrity. That his accounts are not audited, is not strictly true, for they do undergo an audit; but that cannot be so strictly done, as to prevent the possibility of frauds, and even enormous frauds.
Mr. Rose
observed, that the noble lord (Henry Petty) had said, he should not alter his tone, on any occasion of the investigation of public affairs; he did not desire that he should; but his feelings and sensations were excited by what fell from the noble lord by way of observations, not upon him. but upon a right hon. friend of his, now no more. These observations were not favourable to the ministerial memory of that great and departed statesmen (Mr. Pitt). Very different conduct had been observed by a right hon. gent. on the other side, for which he had a claim on his gratitude. He then proceeded it defend his own conduct in administration under Mr. Pitt. The noble lord had complained, that there was no account of the expeditions to the Helder or to Egypt. Good God! had the noble lord forgotten the pains which
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Lord H. Petty
on rising to move for additional accounts on the subject, observed, that he was not conscious of having
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[TORTOLA FREE-PORT BILL.]
Earl Temple moved the order of the day for the third reading of the Tortola Free-Port bill; on which,
Mr. Rose
briefly adverted to the disadvantages which, he conceived, would result from it, and entreated that the noble lord would consider it in every point of view, before he pressed it through the house.
Mr. Bourne
said, that such a measure had been more than once under consideration, but had been rejected on examination; and he conceived that the board of trade had undertaken the business through the solicitations of certain interested persons, without being aware of the consequences. He therefore would oppose the third reading.
Mr. Perceval
did not think it decent to press this measure on the house, without a single argument being made use of by the ministers in support of it. The learned gent. then repeated several of the arguments he had before urged against the bill. It would be impossible, he said, that the island of Tortola could ever be in the same situation as the island of St. Thomas; the latter being in the possession of a neutral power, and having a privilege of trading all over the world; neither of which advantages Tortola could have by virtue of this bill. He then adverted to the difficulty that would arise, from the signature of the officer in the island of Tortola not being known in all the different ports of England and Ireland; and concluded by calling on the ministers, not to suffer the bill to pass without breaking through the silent dignity they had maintained in all the stages, and, at least, stating what grounds they had for bringing forward the measure.—No answer being made to this demand, the question was put, and the house divided; when there appeared, for the third reading, 35; against it, 12; majority, 23.
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, May 28.
[Minutes.]
The house met, pursuant to adjournment. Strangers were excluded, and continued so till nine o'clock; during which, we understand, their lordships were considering, in committee of the whole house, the evideuce adduced on the trial of lord viscount Melville.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, May 28.
[MINUTES]
A petition was presented by Mr. Alexander, from the merchants of Glasgow, against the bill now pending, for withholding the Drawback on foreign Linens exported from this country; which, with two other petitions, from other merchants, to the same effect, were ordered to lie on the table until the second reading of the bill, which, upon the motion of Mr. Foster, was deferred till Wednesday next.—A new writ was ordered to be issued, for the election of a representative for the county of Somerset, in the room of W. Dickenson, esq. deceased.—Sir J. Anderson presented a petition from the curriers of London, against the bill for repealing the Flaying Act.—The house, upon the motion of lord Temple, resolved itself into a committee for taking into consideration the Foreign Thread Lace Duty act, and the propriety of increasing the duties thereon. Resolved, that it was expedient to increase the several denominations of duties. Ordered to be reported on Friday.—A message from the lords announced their lordships' concurrence in the Irish Spirit Duty bill, the Irish Butter Regulation bill, and several private bills.—Mr. Speaker acquainted the house, that in answer to the communication of the thanks of the house voted to admiral sir Richard Strachan, and the officers, seamen, and marines, under his command, for their gallant services against the enemy, he had received a letter from that officer, dated on board the Cesar, at sea, the 19th of May, 1806; and which he should read. The letter, in substance, acknowledged the receipt of the letter from Mr. Speaker, communicating to sir Richard the honour done him by the house of commons, in their vote, approving the services of himself and the officers and seamen under his command; that he should feel sincere pleasure in performing the duty entrusted to him, of communicating the sense of the house of Commons to the officers, seamen, and marines under his command;
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA—OUDE CHARGE.] Mr. Paull
pursuant to the notice he had given, rose to bring forward his, promised Charge against the marquis Wellesley, with reference to his conduct to the Nabob of Oude. It was not his wish, he said, to trespass unnecessarily upon the time and attention of the house. The charges he meant to submit to their consideration, he had written, and were in his hand; he would read them, if it was the pleasure of the house, or, with their permission, he would move, without reading them, to lay them on the table.—The Speaker said, the hon. member might use his own discretion, and had certainly a right, if he chose, to use his privilege of laying them on the table. Mr. Paull immediately did so, and moved that the charge be now read. The charge was accordingly read by the clerk at the table, and is as follows:
"Article of Charge of high Crimes and Misdemeanours committed by Richard Colley Marquis Wellesley, in his transactions with respect to the Nabob Vizier of Oude.
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Sir Arthur Wellesley
did not oppose the printing of the charge; but wished to know at what time the hon. gent. intended to proceed upon it.
Mr. Whitshed Keene
observed, that he was glad that the charge had been brought forward, but at the same time he must state that many gentlemen talked of the princes of India as they did of the king of Sardinia, or any other European princes, whose territories were guaranteed in order to preserve the balance of Europe. Such a thing as a balance of power was not known in India, therefore the cases were different. There was no power in India but the power of the sword. The chief who could procure the command of troops and money, and was of a bold and enterprising disposition, always had the superiority till he was superseded by a stronger than himself. The changes of governments, or of sovereigns there, were not to be regarded with the same feelings as we did such things when they happened in Europe.
Mr. Francis
could not sit silent on the present occasion, as some explanation was required of the very erroneous idea which the hon. gent. on the other side seemed to entertain of the mode of conduct which justice required should be adopted relative to the Indian princes. The hon. gent. seemed to assert that the Indian princes did not hold their possessions by the same tenure as the European sovereigns. He said that the only power in India was the power of the sword. This was indeed, he was afraid, but too true; there was no power in India but the power of the sword, and that was the British sword, and no other. These princes held their sovereign, ties in consequence of the dissolution of the Mogul empire ever since the year 1740. But whatever might be the original right of these princes, they had been acknowledged by us, as we had entered with them into contracts and treaties. To deprive them, therefore, of their territories was, in the first place, a violation of justice itself; and, in the next place, an infringement of
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Mr. Secretary Fox
observed, that after what had fallen from his hon. friend, it was perfectly unnecessary for him to say a word more on the subject. If the hon. gent. opposite thought that the Indian princes were not entitled at one hands to the same justice as other independent sovereigns, he hoped that the number in this house who agreed with him were but small. There was no proposition more universal than this, that you acknowledged the right of a sovereign with whom you treated. It was true, when an ancient sovereign fell, and another came in his place, the feeling of regret for the fate of the sufferer might be more acute, and the indignation against the more recent sovereign more strong and general. Yet this must be confined to third persons; for those who treated with him must, by that act, be considered as having acknowledged his authority. But if ever there was one case where the breach of treaty ought to occasion more indignation than in another, it was where there was no power but the power of the sword especially in India, where, as had been stated, that sword was the British sword If ever there could be a case where a bread of treaty could be defended, it was only in support of the weak against the strong But in India the British ought to be bound by their compacts the more closely, the more it was in their power to break them This he hoped and believed would be the general sentiment of the house. He could not help saying thus much on the genera principle, without applying it at present in any way to the case before the house.
Mr. Bankes,
in concurring in the sentiments that had fallen from the right hon gent. who spoke last, hoped that he should not be considered as giving any countenance to this mode of proceeding. He still maintained that the matter ought to be submitted to that board which had been appointed for the express purpose of investigating Indian affairs.—The charge was then ordered to be printed.
Mr. Paull,
in answer to the question put by the hon. baronet, said he would proceed in the charge in three weeks at the farthest He would move on Friday for certain pa-
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Sir Arthur Wellesley
thought the delay of three weeks too much after so many papers had been moved for, and a general notice given twelve months since. He took this opportunity of stating, that he knew no distinction of right with respect to the princes of India and the princes of Europe. In his defence of lord Wellesley, far from assuming such a distinction, he would shew that lord Wellesley had neither invaded a right nor violated a treaty.
Mr. Paull
said, that the papers were voluminous, and that he himself, with all his exertion, could not be prepared to proceed upon the charge sooner than the time mentioned. It the hon. baronet would look into the precedents, he would find that three weeks was the shortest period: as to the papers, they were essential.
Mr. R. Thornton,
as he had been particularly referred to concerning these papers, stated that they had not certainly come to the directors in the regular way in which they ought to have come. They had only come in the Bengal consultations. They were not so long, perhaps, as far as he could judge, as the Furruckabad papers. They certainly were very material, and applied to the present charge. As to making them the ground of a separate article, he did not think that desirable. He was sorry that they had not come to hand as they ought to have done, as by this means the directors were not in possession of some material information on the point to which they related.
Mr. Wellesley Pole
said, that the hon. gent. had stated no reason for putting off the consideration of the charge for three weeks.
The Speaker
said, that on that head the hon. gent. had a right to exercise his own discretion.
Mr. Paull
advised the hon. gent. to look at the precedents, and then he would find that three weeks was the shortest time that had been mentioned for entering into consideration of such charges.—The charge was accordingly ordered to be considered on that day three weeks.
[PROPERTY DUTY BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
moved the third reading of the bill for imposing an additional Duty on Property.
Mr. Francis
observed, that he had some serious observations to make on one of the clauses which he before objected to in the
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The Speaker
informed him, that if he intended to object to the principle of the bill altogether, this was the proper stage for doing so; but if his objections went only to a particular clause, he must wait till the new clauses were disposed of—After some little conversation, the hon. gent. acquiesced in this arrangement.
Mr. Vansittart
proposed a clause for allowing the commissioners acting under the act, to take out certificates to exempt them from serving on juries or in parish offices.
Sir R. Buxton,
wished to know the grounds on which the exemption was proposed.
Mr. Vansittart
replied, that it was meant as a relief to a set of gentlemen laboriously employed in the service of the public, without emolument.
Sir R. Buxton
said, that he had no other objection to the clause than a fear that, if that principle was introduced here, it might render magistrates, and others in similar circumstances, discontented for not having the same advantages.—The clause was then agreed to.
Mr. Vansittart
then proposed another clause for rendering complete the assessments of former years, in districts where they had not been made out.
Mr. Johnstone
asked if this clause would not have the effect of obliging some persons to pay at the rate of 16½per cent. within one year?
Mr. Vansittart
replied, that a provision was made for obliging no person to pay in any one quarter, more than two quarters of arrears. After this, the clause was agreed to.—He then proposed a third clause, providing, that the same commissioners and assessors who had acted under former bills, should also make out the assessments under this.
Mr. Johnstone
apprehended the effect of this clause might be to compel some persons in the course of a year and a half to pay 21
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Lord H. Petty
replied, that on so comprehensive and voluminous a measure, a great variety of suggestions must have been expected, which had not been thought of at an earlier period. The effect of this clause, he said, would only be, that those who had before contrived to evade the tax,
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On coming to the clause which exempted from the duty any sums held by foreigners in the funds,
Mr. Francis
rose and spoke as follows:— Sir, before I enter into the considerations, which I mean to submit to the house, respecting a very important clause in the present bill, I beg leave to state to you the circumstances, which have led me into this situation. It is painful to me, at all times, to differ from my right hon. friend (Mr. Fox), and still more to find myself compelled to maintain an opinion, which I know he will oppose. In fact, however, I have not provoked this question, nor was it possible for me to foresee that I should have to maintain it against my right hon. friend. Some time, I think, before the Property bill was in print, and when I knew little or nothing of its contents, a right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose), whose assiduous attendance in general on the business of the house, and particularly on subjects of this nature, is much to be commended, took some occasion, I forget what, to declare his opinion, that if the foreign property in our funds were not exempted from the Income tax, the owners would sell out, and transfer their capital to some other country. This was the proposition, which I resisted without reflection in the first instance, and that was the quarter it came from. Until the debate in the committee of the 12th of this month, I did never know what opinion my right hon. friend entertained on the subject. Then, indeed, I found myself between the hammer and the anvil; but that malleation has served only to harden me in my opinion. I state the facts; but I make no apology. The part I take, and my resolution to adhere to it, I hope will entitle me to this conclusion at least, that, if I am in an error, it is the serious error of my judgment, and that I think the object of considerable importance. I am not so thoughtless as to look for a dispute with such an opponent, on doubtful ground, or for a trivial object. All I desire of him, and I am sure he is too liberal to do otherwise, is to answer me as he understands me, and not to avail himself of any lapse of expression, in my hasty way of speaking, as long as he knows what I mean. He wants no advantage of that kind over me or any man.—For the convenience of the house, and still more for my own, I mean
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Mr Secretary Fox
said, he was convinced that his hon. friend was actuated by the best intentions, in proposing his present motion, though something like a tone of reproach seemed to run through his speech. It would be impossible for any man to believe, that his majesty's ministers were influenced by any peculiar tenderness for foreigners, in proposing to exempt their funded property from the tax. They could only be actuated by what appeared to them just and politic. The present measure, considered with regard to its policy, would have the effect of discouraging foreigners from vesting their property in the British funds, and of inducing them to withdraw it altogether, and therefore must be ultimately injurious to this country. Their motives for preferring the British funds were their superior security, together with the high rate of interest which they derived from them; but the hon. gent. seemed desirous of removing these motives at once. He had also given them the invidious name of speculators, and had observed, that during the American war they bought in when the funds were low, and had sold out at the conclusion of peace, to great advantage. But, every man who purchased an estate a view of rendering it more valuable, might equally be considered as a speculator; and he could not see how the conduct of foreigners, in this instance, should draw upon them the resentment of this country. Unless speculations of this kind were left unfettered, the whole funded system would be annihilated. One great advantage of that system was, that any man could invest his property without risk or delay, and could buy in or sell out whenever it suited his convenience. And as it was desirable that foreigners should purchase into our funds, he considered it as exceedingly impolitic to subject them to the tax. The hon. gent. had dwelt upon the frauds that would be practised, in vesting domestic property in the names of foreigners, and it was certainly possible that such frauds might take place; but it was to be observed, that the property tax had now existed for three years, and frauds
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The Speaker
then begged to state to the house, whether the motion, in the present stage of the bill, could at all be entertained by the house. It went to take away the exemption granted to foreigners, and thus tended to a material increase of the produce of the tax. But, agreeably to the established usages of the house, no measure of this kind could be proposed, except in a committee. When the bill, therefore, had already been read a third time, he submitted to the house, whether the present motion was not irregular.
Mr. Bankes
wished the discussion to continue, though his hon. friend had perhaps unadvisedly postponed his motion, as it was a question in which the country
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Lord Henry Petty
spoke to order. After the very clear statement on the subject, which they had heard from the chair, he did not think it correct to go into any farther discussion at present. The only mode he could see for gentlemen to attain their object, and have the matter fully considered, was, for some member to give notice, that he would, on a future day, move, that the house should resolve itself into a committee, to consider of the propriety of subjecting foreign property to this tax.—After a few words from Mr. Francis, the motion then fell to the ground.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, clauses were brought up to exempt stock, or dividends, the property of his majesty, in whatever name they may stand; and also stock the property of accredited ministers from foreign states, when duly authenticated.—On the question that the bill do pass,
Sir R. Burton
said, that he could not omit that last opportunity of entering his decided protest against the bill, inasmuch as it charged the landed interest with what he thought equivalent to 13 per cent., and the funds with 10 per cent.; while on professional men, it operated only as a voluntary tax. The hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Vansittart) had argued the measure as if it was a land-tax; if so, he should have liked to have the bill made annual, as the land-tax always was.
Mr. Vansittart
could not see the utility of its being merely an annual bill. Besides, it would be always subject to the revision of parliament.
Mr. W. Smith
said, that, looking upon the bill as unjust in most of its provisions, nothing should ever reconcile him to it. He had, very lately, received a letter, from a family whose small annuity would expire in 18O8, that is, in little more than a year and a half, and yet they would be compelled to pay as much, in proportion, as the man who had a permanent income, arising from landed or funded property.
Mr. Hudlestone
agreed with every syllable that had fallen from his hon. friend; and contended, that it would oblige the man who derived a small income from the funds, to sell his capital, and, ultimately, drive him to the workhouse. He was sorry
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Lord De Blaquiere
deprecated the conduct of those gentlemen who, just at the moment the bill was about to take its departure from the house, were so anxious to give it a death-blow. Such conduct was the more to be condemned, as it could not be supposed to operate against the adoption of the bill, and could serve only, as it were, to send out the measure to the world with a canister tied to its tail.
Mr. Vansittart
contradicted the assertion, that his noble friend (Petty) had departed from the principles he had stated upon his first proposition of this bill, in any other instance than that in which he had acceded to some deductions, which were deemed necessary to satisfy the claims of justice and humanity. The right hon. gent. argued against the notion, that if the scale of taxation were agreed to, which some gentlemen recommended, namely, the removal of it altogether, from the poor, and the consequent advance upon the rich; if that scale were adopted, he was satisfied that the burthen upon the richer classes Would be much greater, in proportion, than the relief to be afforded to the poorer. He would, indeed, ask the house, in answer to all that had been said, within and without, upon the subject, whether it was possible to devise a tax, which it would be practicable to collect, and which would be productive to the state, without being imposed upon the different classes of the community?
Mr. A. Wright
expressed his hope that, if a man who had a small interest from the funds, should, notwithstanding, be obliged to resort to parish relief, he should, not be still liable to this tax —The bill was read a third time and passed.
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[SALARIES TO COMMISSIONERS OF ACCOUNTS.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, to whom it was referred to consider of granting salaries to such persons as should be appointed commissioners to carry into execution any act of this session of parliament for the examination of the accounts of the expenditure of the public money in the West Indies, and to their secretaries, officers, and clerks, and of defraying the incidental expences attending the same; upon the motion of Mr. Vansittart, it was agreed, "That there be issued and paid, out of the consolidated fund of Great Britain, an annual salary, not exceeding 1500
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, May 30.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Alexander
and other members, brought up from the commons the Property Duty bill, the Tortola Free-Port bill, the Irish Malt Duty bill, the Irish Revenue bill, and several private bills. These bills were all read a first time.—The Duke of Montrose observed, that the Tortola Free-Port bill involved questions of great importance to the commerce of the country. He therefore thought it necessary to move for some documents, which, he conceived, ought to come under the consideration of their lordships, previous to the discussion on the second reading of the bill. He accordingly moved for, an account of the value of the British Manufactures exported to the. islands of Dominica and Tortola, at different periods; the quantity of sugar, rum, coffee, and indigo, imported from those islands into, Great Britain; the value of the sugar, rum, &c. imported from foreign settlements into
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 30.
[MINUTES.]
The Temple Bar and Snowhill Lottery bill, on the motion of alderman Combe, was passed, and ordered to the lords.—An account was presented, on the motion of sir J. Newport, of the additional duties on taxes, stamps; and wares and merchandise in Ireland, from the year 1801 down to the present year.—Mr. Vansittart moved, for an account of exchequer bill issued for the year 1805, outstanding; which was presented accordingly.—Sir J. Newport said, he should, on Wednesday, submit, a preposition to the house, to establish a free and unrestrained intercourse of all sorts of grain between Great Britain and Ireland.—Alderman Combe obtained leave to bring in a bill to repeal the Additional Force bill, as far as related to the city of London.—The house having resolved itself into a committee of ways and means for Ireland; sir J. Newport moved, that there be a duty of 1
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA—PAPERS RELATIVE TO SIR R. SULLIVAN.] Mr. Sullivan
said, he rose to move for the papers of which he had given notice two days ago.—That, having been prevented, by an afflicting distress in his family, from attending in his place during the last week, he had not had an opportunity of hearing the observations which an hon. member had permitted himself to make, to the disadvantage of a near and dear relation of his, a member of that house, who was absent, through infirmity. From what he had since heard and read of those observations, he did not hesitate to say that they were unfounded; and that the house would find, in the papers to which he had alluded, the most distinct and pointed contradiction to what the hon. gent. had asserted. That the transactions, to which those papers related, had reference to a proceeding in which the government of Madras, and the superior government of Bengal, were the principal parties, and in which the hon. bart. was an active and efficient instrument. The inferior government of Madras had recorded, in strong terms, their disapprobation of the conduct of the hon. bart.; and this record had been adduced to the house, as the ground and warrant for the imputation which the hon. gent. had thought proper to cast on his hon. relation. The superior government of Bengal, with this record before them, pronounced, the conduct of the hon. bart. to have been highly meritorious, and, in consequence, they gave it their strongest commendation. That it was not his intention to trespass upon the time of the house, by going into the controversy between the two governments; but that he appealed to the justice of the house, and to the honourable feelings of every man in it, whether the proceedings of the hon. member in adverting exclusively to the opinion that was expressed by one of the parties, and thereupon founding a judgment, could be justifiable in any case, but particularly in that of a member absent through illness?—That the misery and desolation that overspread the Carnatic in the years 1780 and 1781, and the reduced state of our military force and resources at that time,
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Mr. W. Keene
said, on looking over the list of the debts of the nabob of the Carnatic, he referred merely to what was inserted in the papers, which had an effect on his mind, and on which his former observations were grounded. He was concerned if he gave pain to any gentleman.
Mr. Sullivan
said, after what he had Stated to the hon. gent., he trusted he would have done justice to his brother; instead of which, he aggravated his former remarks.
Mr. Ellison
contended, that when an individual was criminated, he had a right to bring forward the best evidence he had, and agreed thoroughly with what had been stated by the hon. gent. who made the motion.—The motion was then put and agreed to.
[MUTINY BILL—LIMITED SERVICE.] The Secretary
at War moved the order of the day, for the house going into a committee on the Mutiny bill. Previous to the Speaker's leaving the chair,
Lord Castlereagh
wished to know from the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), as being a material point in judging of the estimate of the probable expence of his new system, whether he had yet made up his mind on the subject of granting bounties .to soldiers on their entering into then second and third periods of service? Also, whether it was his idea that, on the expiration of the 14 years, those who retired were to have the half of the allowance of 1
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said, the questions put to him by the noble lord were matters merely of regulation. He might entertain an idea that it would be much more useful to give some bounty for the second and third periods of service, but it
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Lord Castlereagh
repeated his wish to know the idea of the right hon. gent. as to whether any and what proportion of bounty should be given to those re-enlisting on the expiration of the first 7 years.
Mr. Windham
said, when the rate of bounty had been so often changed during the present war, how was it possible for him to say what it ought to be at the expiration of 7 years from this date?
Mr. Perceval
observed, that the right hon. gent. seemed not to conceive the question of his noble friend. The noble lord did not ask what the amount of the bounty then to be given would be, but if any bounty was intended to be given for the second period of service, and what proportion it was purposed it should bear to the original bounty?
Mr. Windham
had no difficulty in saying, that it was likely bounties on re-enlistment would be found necessary; but he could not state the probable amount of such bounties, nor the proportion which they should bear to each other. He was not yet aware what bounty would be necessary on the first enlistment, and still less could he know what might be requisite on the second and third.
Mr. Canning
observed, that the import of the question put by his noble friend was, whether the right hon. gent. had such confidence in the superior allurements of his plan, that he looked to recruiting without a bounty; or whether it would be necessary to have recourse to the ordinary mode of bounties? This question he conceived went to the very essence of his plan; and it was of importance that the house should know the right hon. gent.'s intentions on this head.
Mr. Windham
replied, that: he could not at present state what bounty would be given on the first enlistment, nor what proportion would be observed in the bounties at after-periods. He did conceive, however, that some bounty Would be necessary; for if a bounty was given on the first enlistment, why not also on the second and third? But the amount of these bounties
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Mr. O'Hara
thought, that government should always have it in their power to regulate and proportion the bounties, and either to give or withdraw them. They should be proportioned to the period of service for which every man was inclined to enter, whether limited or permanent, and thus adapted to the wishes and inclinations of individuals.—He was proceeding farther on the subject, when the Speaker spoke to order, observing, that the only question before the house was, whether it should resolve itself into a committee. The house then resolved itself into a committee on the bill. In schedule A, however, it was moved that the common oath should be omitted, for the purpose of substituting another in its place.
Mr. Yorke
submitted, that it was not regular to call on the house to vote that certain words should be omitted, without their knowing what was to come in place of them.
Mr. Secretary Windham
read the alterations, which it was his intention to propose in the form of the oath. After specifying the age of the recruit, and that he did not belong to the militia, he proposed that it should proceed to declare that he engaged to serve his majesty for years, which he would fill up with time word "seven;" and also for such further period as his majesty should please to direct, not exceeding years, which he proposed to fill up with the word "three," but which should terminate at the expiration of a period of six following months of uninterrupted peace. That if the recruit should happen to be under 18 years of age, so many years should be added to the period of service, as should prevent the term of 7 years from beginning to run till he was actually 18 years of age. That every soldier abroad, at the period of the expiration of his service, should be sent home free from expence, and, on his arrival in Great Britain, should receive the usual allowance of marching-money, to Carry him to his particular parish or place.
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Sir James Pulteney
in rising to reply to part of what had fallen from the right hon. gent., meant to confine himself strictly to those points which the right hon. gent. had done him the honour to notice from his speech on this subject on a former occasion. He had formerly argued, that the
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Mr. Yorke
said, he had given way with pleasure to his hon. friend, because, as he differed himself so entirely from the right hon. secretary, he thought that it would be desirable to hear an opinion from such an authority. The house, he was sure, ought not to decide on this important question, without hearing and attending to the opinions of all the experienced officers that were members of it. He had listened with great attention to the able and eloquent speech of the right hon. gent. without being convinced, or induced to alter any part of his former opinion. The discussion then pending was a question to leave out an usual clause in the Mutiny bill, for the purpose of introducing an innovation that was not likely to produce any practical good effect, and might be attended with much mischief. He was one of those who thought, from the delays that had occurred between the opening speech and the production of the measure, that his majesty's ministers had abandoned the project, or
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Colonel Craufurd
rose, principally for the purpose of replying to that part of the speech of the right hon. gent. who had just sat down, which regarded colonial service. He would admit that it would always be necessary to keep a considerable part of the regular army in the East Indies, perhaps not less than 21,000 men. The waste of that army he would calculate in the proportion of one to seven, so that, upon the average of seven years, about 3000 men would be requisite to make up for the consumption. It would be necessary to send frequent supplies of men to keep up the strength of these corps. The expence, therefore, of sending home the men who chose to take the benefit of the conditions under which they entered would be very inconsiderable, neither would the inconvenience be so great as the right hon. gent. seemed to imagine it was. For his part, he could not say that he very much admired the humanity of gentlemen who would not allow the men who were fighting the battles of their country, who were risking their lives daily by the severity of a climate to which they were before unused, and by the dangers which are inseparable from a soldier's life; he could not really have the most favourable opinion of the minds or dispositions of gentlemen who would not allow one-fourth of these men to have a chance of returning to their native country. The number to be sent home would never amount to more than something from 700 to 1000 men annually. Should men be banished for life like felons merely because of some trifling inconvenience, after they had honourably served their country? Some regiments had been, to his own knowledge, 20 years abroad: should none of these be allowed to return, unless they were sent home as cripple, for the remainder of their days? Of the West Indies he should say but little, everyone one knew, that some alteration was necessary in
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Sir James Pulteney
thought it necessary to correct an error, into which the hon. officer seemed to have fallen respecting the army which served in Egypt. The greatest part of that army consisted of men who had enlisted for unlimited service. There was not above a regiment or two, whose constitution was otherwise.
Colonel Craufurd
said, that most of the 20th, 40th, and 80th (Irish) regiments were composed of men who had enlisted for limited service, limited as to space and time only.
General Loftus
said, that he had listened with the greatest attention to the right hon. secretary for the war department, and that he thought it but right to give the plan a fair trial. He originally had great objections to enlistments for limited service, but the clause by which it was proposed to retain the men for 3 years, if it should be necessary, after the expiration of the first period of service, reconciled him, in a great degree, to the measure. His objections to it were greatly diminished, if not entirely removed by this alteration; and he would, therefore, decline making any opposition to the clause which it was intended to introduce.
General Norton
said a few words in a low tone, the purport of which we understood to be in opposition to the measure. He thought the question already sufficiently understood and discussed, and he wished to come to a decision at once.
Mr. Canning rose
and said:—I cannot reconcile it, sir, to my sense of duty as a member of parliament, to suffer a question of such magnitude to be hurried to a decision in this extraordinary manner. Instead
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Mr. Secretary Fox
rose, in reply to the right hon. gent. He said, that before he entered into any discussion of the principles of the bill, he must first answer some interlocutory
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ordonnance
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Mr. Perceval
after apologising for an attempt to trespass on the house at so advanced an hour, promised to do it very briefly, and to confine himself to the question: in doing this, it would be impossible for him to follow the right hon. gent. through the wide and desultory field of argument he had adopted. To some points of his speech, however, it would be necessary to advert. Nobody, at least that he had heard, had made any such assertion, as that it was not necessary to increase the army. The question was not about the necessity of increase, but the mode of effecting it; and the point now for the house to consider was, whether the measure proposed was not much more likely to diminish than to increase the public force, Such was the effect, however, which, he was convinced, it was most likely to have.
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pro formá
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, June 2.
[MINUTES.]
The Irish Revenue Collection bill, and the Irish Malt bill, were read a second timeߞMr.Alderman Combe brought up from the commons the Temple-bar and Skinner-street Lottery bill; which was read a first timeߞStrangers were then excluded, and their lordships proceeded to resume the consideration of the evidence adduced on the trial of lord viscount Melville. The house continued to sit till 12 o'clock, when the further consideration of the subject was postponed till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, June 2.
[MINUTES]
The Sorry Iron Railway bill was read a 2d time; as was also the Croydon Iron Railway bill; which were respectively ordered to be committedߞOn the motion of Mr. Calcraft, a new writ was ordered to be issued for the borough of Honiton, in the room of the hon. Cavendish Bradshaw, who, since his election, had accepted the office of one of the tellers of his majesty's exchequerߞSir W. Curtis presented a petition from the shipbuilders, mastmakers, blockmakers, boatbuilders, &c. of London, against the American Intercourse billߞThe Philanthropic Society Incorporation bill was read a. 2d time, and ordered to be committedߞMr. Vansittart obtained leave to bring in a Bill to abolish the fees of the Custom-house Officers of the Port of London, and to regulate the attendance of the said officers.ߞMr. Vansittart observing that a paper relative to the Barrack Department had been omitted by a noble lord, in his motion the other night, moved, that there be laid before the house a copy of the letter from major Davis, assistant barrackmaster-general in the Isle of Wight, dated the 31st of January, 1806; together with a copy of the affidavit of W. Ward, transmitted therewith. Ordered.ߞOn the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the house went into a committee of supply; to which the accounts, presented on Friday last, relative to the amount and issue of Exchequer bills was referred. A resolution, that a sum of 4,500,0001., in exchequer bills, be granted to his majesty,for paying off ex-
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Paull
gave notice, that, on Monday next, he would present a third charge against marquis Wellesley.
Lord Temple
wished to know from the hon. gent., when it was his intention to move some specific day for the house taking into consideration the charges which he had already brought forward? It was the more necessary, that no time should be lost, as a direct charge of murder had been brought against the noble lord; and should the hon. gent. decline fixing any day, he himself intended to move for some specific day, on which the charges might be considered.
Mr. Paull
answered, that all the papers, on which the charges were founded, were not yet before the house, though it was likely they would be presented to-morrow. When the papers were presented, he should propose an early day for their consideration, though, in this matter, he was resolved to consult only his own ideas. He also complained, that certain papers had been detained at the board of controul.
Sir Arthur Wellesley
expressed a similar impatience, that the charges against his noble relation should be, as speedily as possible, brought under the consideration of the house, and particularly that which conveyed an accusation of murder. He observed, that though the papers alluded to were not regularly transmitted to the board, yet they were to be found in the detail of Bengal transactions for 1803.
[PROPERTY DUTY BILL.]Lord henry Petty
gave notice, that, before the close of the present session, he should move for leave to bring in a bill to allow exemptions from the Property Tax to persons, in certain cases, having low incomes and large families. It would be recollected, that, when the Property Tax bill was under discussion, he had stated his opinion, that these exemptions could not be introduced into the bill in the same form as in former bills, without materially affecting the produce of the tax; and in this the house had concurred with him. It was desirable, however, that, in the cases to which he alluded, every reasonable relief should be granted; and he had the satisfaction to state, that the bill, which it was his intention to bring forward in the course of the present session, would give the exemptions, without
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Mr. Perceval
wished to know how the noble lord proposed to ascertain who were and who were not, private brewers?
Lord H. Petty
replied, that person charged to the assessed taxes, were to be required to give in a statement in their returns, whether or not they were private brewers?
[MUTINY BILL.] Mr. Secretary Windham
moved the order of the day, for the house to go into a committee on the Mutiny bill. The house having resolved itself into the committee, and the question for filling up the blanks, in the form of the oath to be taken by the soldiers hereafter to be inlisted, with the number bevel being put,
Lord Castlereagh rose.
He thought that the whole of the clause relating to the limits of service should be left out. He took that opportunity of stating his objections to the clause, which the more he considered, the more forcibly convince him of the paramount duty of pressing his objections upon the attention of the house. He should, however, avoid going into the detail arising out of the question, and confine himself in that instance to the prominent features of the measure. Every member must be aware of the painful difficulties, and the embarrassing situation in which the house was placed, by being called on to decide on a detailed military question, with little notice, and little detailed information. If the right hon. secretary, with all his advantages, was four months in settling the details of his plan, it was rather embarrassing for parliament to decide upon it only three or four days after. the Chelsea, bill had been laid on the table, which was absolutely necessary in order to form any correct opinion upon it; and there was; additional difficulty, as the blanks in the clause were not now filled up, and as much was matter of regulation. But it was unnecessarily embarrassing, because ministers withheld that body of valuable information
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Mr. Grattan
thought the noble lord might have been more moderate in his strictures on this plan, when some plan was confessedly necessary, and neither the noble lord himself, nor any of his associates,
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The Master of the Rolls
said, he well, knew, and greatly respected, the abilities of the right hon. gent. who spoke last; but he thought him mistaken in his view of the noble lord's argument. The right hon. gent. argued, that if the measure did not produce men, it would not be attended with expence: now, the objection was, that it would be attended with immense expence, without producing any men. .The right hon. gent. commended the measure for merits which it did not possess: for, surely, it did not go to give any new civic benefits to the subject. The right hon. gent. also differed very widely from what the right hon. mover of this measure thought the soldier ought to be. If the right hon. gent. had heard the right hon. secretary's opening speech, he would have heard him say, that the character of the soldier ought to be distinct from every thing else. The right hon. gent. contended, that it ought to be united and blended with the character of the artisan. One general objection to the trial of this experiment was, that we had no experience
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The Solicitor General
said, he felt as much disappointed that his right hon friend had not treated the subject in a Constitutional point of view, as his right hon.
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General Norton
spoke against the clause, and suggested an amendment, that troops in the home islands should be attested to serve not only during the term of seven years, but until 6 months after the termination of any war in which their time should expire; troops in the Mediterranean or West Indies to serve for 12 months, and in the East Indies for 18 months after the termination of such war.
Colonel Craufurd
replied to some of the
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Sir W. Lemon
congratulated the house on having heard the most constitutional speech from the Solicitor General, which; in the course of 30 or 40 years, he had ever beard in that house. The greatest grievance which could attend a free country, was a great standing army. If such must be maintained, the most constitutional way in which it could be established, the better. On that ground he approved of the speech of the Solicitor General.
Lord Lovaine
wished to be informed, if the present army of the country was not established on constitutional principles?
General Stuart,
notwithstanding the arguments which had been offered by several learned gentlemen, and by an hon. Irish orator (Mr. Grattan), who spoke early in the debate, could not agree in the good consequences that were anticipated from this plan. It was said, it would not only procure a rapid supply of men, but those of a better description. He did not conceive the army could have a better description thau that of soldiers; and as to better orders of men, he thought the common day-labourers made better soldiers than tradesmen or clerks; he spoke from the experience of ten years as a commanding officer; and he could not coincide in the opinions of the hon. Irish orator.
Mr. Grattan
felt it necessary to say a word or two in answer to the hon. general who had just sat down, and who had thrown some of his scattering shot towards that side of the house. The hon. general, though he did not deliver his sentiments in the style of an Irish orator, seemed to betray some symptoms of an Irish understanding; but he could wish the hon: general had evinced a little better acquaintance with Irish order. But notwithstanding the confidence of the hon. general in the opinion he avowed, he (Mr. Grattan) begged leave to decline his authority, either as an Irish orator or an Irish officer.
General Stuart
replied, that though he did not profess to be an Irish orator, he hoped he should. always maintain the character of an Irish soldier.
Mr. Bankes
spoke at some length against the principle of discharging men during the
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Lord Garlies
after complimenting the master of the rolls on his very argumentative speech, declared his main objection to the measure to proceed from the bad effect it must have on the naval service. It might happen that we had an expedition going on, combined both of naval and military force, and that one part might be entitled to demand their discharge, while the other could not. He would ask how it could be possible to reconcile the one to the idea of being bound to continue in their service while the other was discharged? The question being then very generally called for, the house divided: For the question, 206; Against it, 105; Majority, 101. —The blanks ,were then filled up, and the bill passed through the committee without any further discussion. After which, the house having resumed, the report was brought up, and ordered to be taken into consideration to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 3.
[MINUTES.]
The Temple-bar Lottery bill was read a second time.—The Irish Revenue Collection bill, and the Irish Malt bill, passed through committees, and were reported.—The Earl of Moira presented a petition from Mr. Justice Fox, which was read short by the clerk, praying that the house would take his case into consideration, and do what should seem meet to them therein. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Alexander and several other members of the commons, brought up the Irish Sugar bill, and the Irish Additional Force Repeal bill, which were read a first time. Lord Eldon rose to move the order of the day. Earl Stanhope wished previously to offer some observations to the house. Earl Bathurst moved that the house should be cleared. Strangers were immediately excluded, and the consideration of the evidence adduced on the trial of lord Melville was resumed.—The discussion continued till ten o'clock. Several questions were referred to the judges, who were to deliver their opinion, in answer, on the following Thursday, to which day the house adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, June 3.
[MINUTES] Mr. Pattison
moved that the evidence taken before the committee
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[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Lord Castlereagh,
though the second reading of the American Intercourse bill stood for Thursday, hoped that it would not come on so soon, as parliament ought not to be pressed to decide upon it before it was in possession of the requisite information. He thought the house should be in possession of the instructions given to the governors of the West-India islands, by the late administration, which he considered as consonant with the soundest principles of the navigation act. He also wished to have those instructions which had been subsequently, sent; and concluded by moving, that the instructions sent to the governors of the West-India islands, relative to the American intercourse, of the 5th September, 1804, should be laid before the house; as also copies of any instructions subsequently sent.
Lord Temple
had no objection to the papers; but as to the postponing of the second reading of the bill, if he did that, it would be on account of the state of the public business, and not on account of any argument urged by the noble lord. He contended that the bill ought to pass with all convenient speed.
Mr. Perceval
observed, that though it did not pass this session, the West-India colonies would only be in the same situation that they had been in for the last thirteen years. He did not, therefore, see any particular necessity for pressing the bill forward with any great haste. He did not see the propriety of the noble lord urging it on by that command which his situation gave him over the house, before the proper information was produced.
Mr. Plumer
said, that it was irregular
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Mr. Perceval,
in explanation, said, that he did not see where the irregularity was in saying, that the noble lord's situation and eloquence gave him great influence in the house.
Mr. Plumer
observed, that if the hon. and learned gent. had not used the word command, he would beg his pardon.
Mr. Rose
wished to know whether it was the intention of the noble lord to postpone the second reading of the bill beyond Thursday. He adverted to the petitions that had been presented, and the great interests that were concerned in this business. If a committee was granted him, he undertook to finish the evidence up stairs in three days. He had, during the last few months, seen the most extraordinary measures that ever he had observed in parliament; but this was the most extraordinary of them all. His lordship had expressed his doubts whether he would postpone it upon the arguments of the noble lord near him. This was the most extraordinary language, and such as was seldom heard in that house.
Lord Temple,
in explanation, said, that his doubts as to postponing it arose from the state of business before the house; and he had expressly said that this was the ground of his doubt, and not any argument of the noble lord. As to the merits of the case, the right hon. gent.'s proposition for a committee would have been perfectly proper had the bill been a measure of repeal. But it was merely a matter of regulation, enabling the government to do that by law which had been for several years past done without law, or against it. However, he would postpone the second reading of the bill till Friday.—The papers were then granted.
[ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.] Mr. Secretary Fox
rose to give notice, that he should on Tuesday next bring forward a resolution respecting the final Abolition of the Slave trade. He conceived it would be too late in the present session to propose any bill upon the subject; but as it was one of those important subjects upon which his majesty's present ministers had pledged their opinions to the house, he thought it high time to evince their determination of carrying those opinions into effect.
General Tarleton
wished to know the specific tenour of the right hon. gentleman's intended motion.
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, he had no wish to conceal from the hon. gent. the purport
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA—OUDE CHARGE.] Lord Tenple,
pursuant to the notice he had given upon a former day, now rose for the purpose of moving a specific day, for taking into consideration the charges of high crimes and misdemeanours against the marquis Wellesley, laid upon the table by an hon. member, on the 28th of last month. He hoped it would not be necessary for him to preface his motion by observations to any great length. But as the hon. member, who had brought forward those charges, had named no particular day for moving the house to their consideration; feeling, as he did, the nature and importance of those charges, to be such as called for their full investigation with the least possible delay, he now rose for that purpose. Gentlemen, who had looked into those charges, must have felt them to be of the most weighty nature. They directly imputed to lord Wellesley, not only every species of public delinquency that could brand the character of a public officer, but every charge of private depravity that could stain the personal reputation of an individual. He had no doubt, that the hon. gent. who brought forward those charges, had done so under a self-persuasion of their truth, and a belief that he should be able to substantiate them in evidence. He would not pay the hon. gent. so bad a compliment, as to suppose he would bring forward such charges against any man, much less against the noble lord, unless he was himself persuaded they were founded in fact, and without being prepared with evidence which he himself conceived competent to sustain them. But the hon. gent. must allow that, notwithstanding the strength of his own persuasion upon the subject, it was still possible the noble lord might possess a confidence in his own innocence, superior to every accusation of such a nature, and must feel extremely impatient for the opportunity of his own vindication; more especially, when those charges included one of a nature more atrocious than all the rest, and such a one as called for the most immediate investigation, namely, the charge of a foul, deliberate, and cruel murder. In this charge was
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Mr. Paull
adverted to the precedent of Mr. Burke's proceedings against Mr. Hastings; and said, that that right hon. gent., after 5 years' deliberation, and repeated motions, had, upon the 4th of April, 1786, laid on the table 7 articles of charge against Mr. Hastings; on the 12th of April, he laid 4 more; and, on the 7th of May, 3 more; and, notwithstanding the right hon. gent. had taken 5 years to deliberate upon his purpose; that he had the benefit of the reports of the secret committee, of various papers he moved for, and of evidence examined at the bar for the proof of his charges; yet it was not in less than 6 weeks afterwards, that he moved the house to any proceeding upon those charges. Now, he had given notice only the preceding day, that he had witnesses to examine; and had, also, moved for a number of papers, many of which were absolutely necessary in support of the charges alluded to by the noble lord. Let those witnesses be examined at the bar; let those papers be produced in proper time; and he should not have the smallest objection to proceed to the investigation on the day proposed. Indeed, it was his intention to have moved for that day, if the testimony and documents had been fairly before the house; but, until they were, he should not be induced to move one step to the right or to the left, or to move one degree quicker or slower,
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Lord Archibald Hamilton
could not let pass some expressions which had fallen from the noble lord, without making a few observations upon them. The noble lord had complained, that the charges of the hon. gent. went to impeach the private character of lord Wellesley, for acts merely of public and official conduct; and that he had applied to the noble marquis, personally, every atrocious epithet, of tyranny, cruelty, oppression, plunder, and even of murder, for acts done in his public and official situation. But he must conceive it impossible, that such could have been the purpose of the hon. gent.; and as to the charge of murder, he did not conceive it to be put by the hon. gent. in the way it was imputed. But really, if, in bringing forward charges such as those now on the table of the house, and every tittle of which his lordship conceived to be warranted by the documents already brought forward in support of them, a member was to be restrained in the use of such language, and such epithets, as were usual in expressing opinions extremely natural to his feelings, upon such circumstances as those charged, lest the private character of the party accused should be supposed to be implicated in his public conduct, it would be impossible for any man to devise a becoming language for bringing before that house criminal charges against public delinquency in any man.
Sir John Newport
expressed some surprise, how the noble lord who spoke last, if he had read the charges upon the table, could so far mistake that particular charge, which related to murder, as to say the crime was not roundly and specifically charged against the noble marquis, in conjunction with others. The hon. bart. here read an extract from the charge; which stated, that the said marquis, in conjunction with Henry Wellesley, had, with numbers of armed men, surrounded the mansions of certain zemindars and rajahs, the subjects of the nabob of Oude, and within his dominions; and did attack, slay, and destroy, several of the said rajah's zemindars, and their attendants and adherents; and did sack and plunder their said mansions of their property; thus completing the measure of his oppression and tyranny, by a foul, deliberate, wanton, and cruel murder. If this, then, was not a charge of
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Sir Arthur Wellesley
rose, to express some surprise at the declaration made by the noble lord who spoke last but one; namely, that he thought the charges against the noble marquis, his relation, borne out by the documents already laid upon the table; and more especially as the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) had said, only the moment before, that he could not sustain those charges, without several other documents, which he had moved for; and also, the examination of several witnesses at the bar. It was very extraordinary, therefore, that the noble lord should pronounce so decidedly upon the truth of charges (which, however, remained to be proved), that his hon. friend, who brought them forward, declared he was not able to sustain without much more evidence. With respect to the charge of murder, however, it was one of too foul and atrocious a nature to be suffered to go forth unexplained, or remain as a stain upon the character of his noble relation, without placing the circumstances, upon which it was founded, in a proper point of view. There were certain officers, called zemindars and rajahs, resident in that part of the nabob's territory which was ceded to the company in 1801, and rendered liable to pay certain tributes, in the way of land-tax upon that territory, annually, to the company. The first year's tribute they did pay, he believed, regularly; and the regulations of the company, which were the laws of the country, were promulgated and established in that territory; but, upon the 2d payment being required, instead of complying with the law, they combined to resist it: they assembled together their armed forces, under the chief command of an officer named Amas Ali Khan; they retired to their forts; they set the laws at defiance; they refused to pay any tribute; and it was found necessary by the governor-general, in support of the laws, to reduce those men by force. So formidable were they, that it required the whole of the Bengal army, with the commander-in-chief at their head, to effect this service. They were attacked in their forts, and, in the course of their obstinate resistance, some persons fell; some blood was spilt; and this was what the hon. gent. imputed to the noble marquis as a murder. It was an act of public power, done-in-sup-
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Lord A. Hamilton
explained, that when he said the charge was warranted by the papers on the table, he could not be supposed to mean that it was proved. This was quite a different thing.
Mr. Golding
said, a charge of murder was as well warranted against the lord lieutenant of Ireland, for the death of the rebels, slain in the suppression of the late insurrections in that country; or against the magistrates of London, and the ministers of the time, for the death of those killed in the suppression of the riots in 1780.
Mr. Fox
submitted whether this was a time to enter upon the merits of the case; and expressed his hope, that the subject would be dismissed for the present.
Dr. Laurence
said, that it was impossible, in a case of this kind, to fix a particular day. The house could not, with any propriety, proceed to the consideration of the charge, till the whole of the evidence was before them. Papers had been moved for, which had been suppressed by the late board of controul, and had not yet been produced.
Lord Castlereagh
complained of the illiberal manner in which he had been treated by the hon. and learned gent., who said that he had suppressed papers, when he had only exercised a proper discretion, thinking that the communication would be injurious to the public service. He thought the learned gent. ought rather to have made a specific motion on the subject, and then he should be prepared to defend himself. These papers would not certainly justify the expression in the charge.
Mr. Johnstone
said, that the papers in question related to troops and forts, and other matters of public notoriety, and were, therefore, the worst grounds in the world for the exercise of this discretion. As he was on his legs, he must say, that the word "murder" was improperly applied.
Lord H. Petty
agreed with his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox), that this was a most improper time for entering on the merits of the case; and hoped, therefore, that the subject would be dropped.—The motion was then put and carried.
[EXEMPTIONS FROM TAXES.] Lord Henry Petty
rose, and stated, that a very general misconception prevailed as to the
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wished to know, whether the proposed relief was to be afforded in the Assessed taxes?
Lord H. Petty
was not prepared to state precisely; but the relief would be, at least, partly on the Assessed taxes, and would be in proportion of all children above two.
Mr. Wilberforce
stated his satisfaction at this proposed regulation.
[CORN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Sir J. Newport
rose with peculiar satisfaction on the present occasion; as he was convinced it would be sufficient merely to state the measure, of which he had given notice, to ensure the full concurrence of the house. This measure, in which he was supported by the authority of his majesty's ministers, went to lay open the intercourse in grain between Great Britain and Ireland; and, he trusted, it would be merely a prelude to that free interchange of every other commodity between the two countries, which was so much to be desired. With regard to grain, an article of the first necessity, there could be no doubt that one part of the united kingdom should assist another whenever occasion demanded it; and the only way of preventing an undue rise in the price of the commodity in any part of the country was, to remove every limit and obstruction in the way of its interchange. The measure, which he should propose, would place all the ports of the united kingdom exactly on the same footing, with regard to importation or exportation, as the different ports of Great Britain were at present, with regard to one another. It was earnestly to be wished, that the union between the two countries should become
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[MUTINY BILL.] Mr. Alexander
having appeared at the bar, with the report of the committee on the Mutiny bill, on the question that it be brought up,
Mr. S. Bourne
rose, not for the purpose of discussing this subject at present; but to give notice, that, on the 3d reading, if no member anticipated him, it was his intention to move an amendment, that no men should be discharged in time of war. As he was on his legs, he would observe, that, 3 months ago, the right hon. secretary for the war department had received the orders of the house, to bring in a bill for the discontinuance of the Ballot, and for the better Defence of the Realm. As this was a late period of the session, he wished to ask the right hon. gent. whether or not it was his intention to bring forward this bill?
Mr. Secretary Windham
expressed his intention of bringing this bill in on Thursday. In answer to some observations from sir W. Elford, relative to the Ballot for Militia, the right hon. secretary said, that it was not his intention to propose the abolishment of the ballot; but that when regiments had been reduced to the proposed establishment, vacancies occurring in them should not, for the present, be filled up by ballot, but by recruiting.
Sir J. Pulteney
gave notice, that on the 3d reading he should propose an amendment for confining the limited service to the 2d battalions.—The report was then brought up and agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, June 5.
[Minutes.]
The Irish Customs bill, the Irish Revenue Regulation bill, and the Irish Malt bill, were read a 3d time and passed, and a message sent to the commons to acquaint them therewith.—The Property Duty bill, and the Irish Additional Force Repeal bill, were read a 2d time.—The duke of Montrose moved for some accounts respecting the Commerce of Dominica, with reference to the Tortola Free-Port bill, which were ordered.—Earl Spencer adverted to the order which stood for the next day, with reference to the motion
516
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, June 5.
[Minutes.]
Mr. D. Davenport took the oaths and his seat for Cheshire, in the room of Mr. Egertou, deceased.—The Customs Fees Abolition bill was brought up, and read a first time.—The house resolved itself into a committee on the Scotch Distillery acts. Mr Vansittart stated various inconveniences, that arose from the present mode of collecting the duties on distilleries in Scotland; and concluded by moving, that they should be collected in the form mentioned in the resolutions which he was about to propose. These were handed to the chairman (Mr. Hobhouse); who took the sense of the committee, whether, as the particulars were to appear on the Votes, he should then read them. The sense of the house being against reading the particulars then; the resolutions were agreed to, and the house resumed.—Mr. Foster rose, pursuant to notice, to move for papers relative to the Corn Trade. He accordingly moved for several accounts respecting the quantity of corn, flour, &c. imported and exported, between Great Britain and Ireland, for the last 12 years; the drawbacks and bounties allowed, during the same period, for exports and imports of corn, to and from Great Britain and Ireland, and the Ameri-
517
518
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA—OUDE CHARGE.] Mr. Paull
gave notice that, on the 10th of June, he would move the consideration of the Oude charge. The speaker observed, that it was his duty to say, that the 18th of June had already been appointed for that purpose; and though an order might be postponed, it could not, according to the practice of the house, be accelerated. Mr. Paull said, that the house had not been brought into this dilemma by him.
Mr. Fox
requested the speaker to read the question again: and, having heard it, said, that the thing was impossible: an order might be postponed, but not accelerated; and he did not know what the hon. gent. meant.
Sir Arthur Wellesley
said that, as the
519
Mr. Paull
then moved, that the 18th be inserted instead of the 10th of June.
Mr. Fox
said, that the 18th had already been fixed upon; but the hon. gent. might move, that his witnesses should attend on the 18th.
Sir Arthur Wellesley
observed, that the noble lord, who proposed the 18th, did it with a view to have a decision on that day. For his part, he only wished to have a decision this session. The hon. gent. might call his evidence on the 10th, if consistent with the orders of the house; and it might be considered on the 18th. He hoped, at all events, that the matter would not be delayed beyond the present session.
Mr. Fox
observed that, whatever might be the wishes of the hon. general, they could not supersede the established rules of the house. Evidence might be laid on the table; but oral evidence could only be taken when the subject was under consideration. The order then was, to consider it further and further, as there should appear occasion. Though the hon. gent. moved that his witnesses should be called on the 18th; yet it was not to be understood, that they were therefore to be heard. He concluded by declaring, that though the forms of the house could not be violated, yet that every facility ought to be given to the business, that the time of the house, and the interests of substantial justice, would allow.
Mr. Paull
said, that no one had ever, in a similar situation, proceeded so rapidly as he had done. There should be no delay on his part.
Mr. Francis
wished to know whether the hearing of evidence was equivalent to the taking a thing into consideration? If printed evidence was received before the period of entering upon the consideration of a subject, why should not oral evidence? If we could get over this difficulty, the evidence might be heard in the mean time.
Mr. Fox
replied that, by the forms of the house, oral evidence could not be received, except when a subject was under consideration, and this was the case: he apprehended, for these, among other reasons, that proper limits might be set to the evidence, and that the members might have it as fresh as possible in their recollection.
Mr. Paull
then moved, that the fol-
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Sir Henry Strachey
said, that Mr. Strachey was under orders for India; and that it would be hard, if he should be detained by order of the house.
Mr. Paull
said, that this gentleman had been private secretary to the governor, during the transactions at Furruckabad and other places, and must, of course, be well acquainted with them. But he would still waive the order as to him, if it would occasion him any serious inconvenience; it being understood, however, that he was to attend, if he should not have quitted the country. Upon this, Mr. Strachey was struck out of the motion; which was then agreed to.
[CORN INTERCOURSE BILL.]
The house, on the motion of sir J. Newport, resolved itself into a committee, to take into consideration the propriety of a motion for leave to bring in a bill to establish a free intercourse between Great Britain and Ireland, in the mutual export and import of certain species of grain between the two countries. The house accordingly resolved into a committee.
Mr. Foster
rose and observed, that there were some difficulties in the way of such a bill, which, unless satisfactorily obviated, would present insurmountable objections to its being passed into a law. At present, the corn trades of both countries were regulated under acts of parliament, respectively, which established, in each country, an average rate of price for the different species of grain; which average being attained in the home market, the ports were closed against exportation, and opened for importation; and below which price exportation was permitted, and importation precluded. This regulation was made with a view to prevent an excessive price of the necessary of life to the home consumer; and, at the same time, to allow every reasonable advantage to the agricultural interests in each kingdom. Now, by the proposed bill, as far as he was enabled to conjecture, although the price of corn in England should be above the average which admitted of exportation, yet the price in Ireland might be so much cheaper, as to admit the continuance of exports from thence; and, therefore, by the proposed
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vice versâ
Mr. Weston
expressed his readiness to give to Ireland every boon and advantage, not actually inconsistent with the fair interests of Great Britain; and observed that, although so much had not been granted as was sought about two years since, yet he believed, that what had then been granted had been of considerable advantage to Ireland. He did not, at present, see any objection to the proposed measure, particularly if under the regulations and restrictions suggested by the right hon. gent. who had just sat down; but he hoped it would be considered as a boon to Ireland.
Sir John Newport
was ready to admit, that what had been already done for Ireland, on this head, had been of mutual advantage to both countries, and of as much to this as to Ireland: the great exporting grain from this country to Ireland was barley; of which, in the last year, the quantity was 110,000 quarters; and the principal grain exported from Ireland to England and Scotland, was oats; of which the quantity was very great indeed, beyond the supply afforded by their own produce for their necessary consumption; and, therefore, the interchange of these grains, alone, would be a considerable accommodation to the agriculture and consumption of both nations. He was very willing thankfully to acknowledge, on the part of Ireland, any boon conferred by this country; but, at the same time, it must not be forgotten, that every
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Mr. Foster
begged leave to add a few words, in order to ascertain, beyond misconception, the object he had in view. In the way of the suggestion he had proposed, and which, he understood, was admitted, there were certainly difficulties, but not insurmountable ones. The average prices of corn in Ireland, by which its export and import were to be regulated, could be communicated to every outport in the kingdom in five days after quarter-day. Nearly the same expedition could be obtained, in a similar communication, to the outports of Great Britain, with respect to the average prices here: but, in placing both countries mutually under the same regulations, a longer delay must necessarily occur. Much of the difficulty, however, would be removed, by consulting the aid of experienced and practical men; which might be done during the progress of the bill.—Lord Archibald Hamilton said a few words in approbation of the measure; after which sir John Newport moved, that the chairman be instructed to move the house for leave to bring in the bill; which was agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, June 6.
[MINUTES.]
The Irish First Fruits bill was read a 3d time and passed; and a message sent to the commons, to acquaint them therewith.— The Property Duty bill, the Irish Sugar bill, and the Irish Additional Force Repeal bill, passed through committees, and were reported.— Lord Auckland presented the report of the board of trade made in 1784, relative to the trade between the West Indies and America; which was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. — Strangers were ordered to withdraw; and the consideration of the evidence adduced on the trial of lord viscount Melville was resumed. Their lordships continued in discussion till eleven o'clock; when the further consideration of the subject was deferred till Monday; on which day the judges were again ordered to attend.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, June 6.
[MINUTES.]
Lord Muncaster took the oaths, and his seat for the county of Westmoreland, in the room of sir Michael Le
523
[ABANDONMENT OF THE TAX ON PRIVATE BREWERS.] Lord H. Petty
moved the order of the day for the house to resolve itself into a committee of ways and means, for the purpose of postponing it to Monday next. The order of the day being read,
Lord Henry Petty
felt it necessary, before he should move that the house do resolve itself into that committee on Monday next, to say a few words with respect to the motion which it had been his intention to submit to the house in the committee this day, but which he deemed it expedient to postpone for the present. He begged it, however, to be understood, that Any change that had taken place in his mind on this subject, had not arisen from any idea of abandonflent of the principle of the tax, the equity and fairness of which were in his mind indisputable. The more he considered the tax on Private Brewers, the more his attention was directed to it; the more he had enquired into the merits of the question and weighed the grounds of objection to it, the more he was convinced of the justice of the principle, and of the policy of applying that principle, in such a manner as would render its operation impartial but efficient. With a view, however, to render the operation of the tax as equitable as the nature of circumstances would admit, he felt it to be his duty to give the subject a mature, deliberate, and even a slow consideration; and on this ground, but not because he thought
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Mr. Coke
expressed his astonishment and surprise at what had just fallen from the noble lord, 'that the more he considered the tax, the more he was convinced of its justice and expediency.' For himself, the more he considered it, the more he was convinced of its severity and oppression. He deeply lamented the necessity of opposing any of the measures brought forward by his majesty's present ministers, who had his entire confidence, and who, in his opinion, if the country was to be saved, were the only men that could effect that salvation. He had been thirty years a member of parliament, and had uniformly voted on the other side of the house, and conscientiously. It would be with regret, therefore, that he should oppose men whom he knew and loved; but he should be obliged by a sense of his duty to oppose this tax, as it appeared to him to be a boon to a certain class of men (the public brewers), but whether they deserved that boon or not by the quality of the article they supplied to the public, it was not his wish to discuss.
Sir R. Buxton
who had from the first considered the tax as objectionable, was glad to hear, that the measure of introducing the excise into private families had been finally abandoned. But he was extremely sorry to learn, that the noble lord intended to persist is the measure, and again to
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Lord Henry Petty
was sorry to find, that what had been stated by him on first proposing the tax to the house, had been so grossly misrepresented, as well as that the subject of excise should again be adverted to, after he had distinctly stated to the house his intention, in case of his bringing forward the tax, to omit the excise clause altogether. Nothing that he had said, could warrant the misrepresentations that had been made at public meetings on this subject. No man was more averse than himself, nor had it ever entered into his head to carry the system of excise into private families. His object had been merely to give an option to families so circumstanced as to make such option desirable: he had, however, on finding that considerable difficulties were felt with respect to the introduction to the excise at all, determined to omit that part of the proposed arrangement. The principle on which the tax rested, was to make all descriptions of the consumers of beer contribute to the tax.
Mr. Baker
had objected to the introduction of the excise in the first instance, and had felt much of his objections obviated by the giving up that part of the measure. He agreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Coke) in the wish not to be obliged to oppose the measures of his majesty's ministers; but he could not go the length with him in saying, that they were the only set of men that could save the country. He had been above thirty years in parliament; during which period, he had voted sometimes on one side and sometimes on the other. He could not place in the present ministers the same implicit confidence with his hon. friend; and, from the experience of the last twelve years, he was sure, that some individuals amongst them were not intitled to that confidence.
Mr. Long
thought the option of being excised or not, was no relief or accommodation whatever to the private man; for, if he did not accept the option, he must be liable to all the same penalties as the common brewer. With regard to the proposed addition of 10 per cent. on the Assessed Taxes, it deserved to be considered, whether the increase might not be pushed so far, as to counteract the very purpose in view, and to diminish, instead of increasing, their general produce. At the
526
Mr. Secretary Fox
was of opinion, that the tax in question was a good one, as putting the private brewer only on a footing of equality with the other consumers of beer. All that part of the measure which related to the excise, was intended to be dropped; but he must say, that it only meant that every person should have his option; and that if, on the principle,
volenti non fit injuria
Mr. Wilberforce
observed, that had the tax been persisted in, he should have congratulated the house, that the part respecting the excise had been left out; but he now felt still more gratified that the noble lord had relinquished the measure, at least for the present; and he must say, that the conduct of the noble lord on this occasion had increased that respect which he had uniformly felt for his character. He had shown, that he remembered that he was the financier of a free country, and that the general stock of good will towards the government should not be diminished. Had the tax been persisted in, he should not have opposed it, as he had already resisted a preceding measure, which he considered as hostile to the manufactures of the country; but he should have regretted the effects which he feared it would have had in many parts of the country, where it was common for families to brew their own beer—a practice which he should ever consider as equally favourable to comfort
527
Mr. Johnstone
expressed his astonishment and regret, that the noble lord should have abandoned a former tax, and relinquished the present, while nothing hitherto had been imposed for payment of the interest of the loan, except the trifling tax on appraisements and on tobacco, &c. He contended, that the principle of the tax was good; and that it only required courage and perseverance, on the part of the noble lord, to render it productive. He quoted the words of Dr. Adam Smith, who had, long ago, recommended a tax precisely similar; though he had proposed, that the duty should rather be imposed on the malt, than on the private brewer. On the whole, he conceived, that ministers had thought the relinquishment of the measure necessary for the support of the military plans of their right hon. colleague, and not produced by any conviction of its hurtful tendency.
Mr. Tyrwhit Jones
thought that, had the tax been persisted in, the present ministers would have become as unpopular as any who had ever gone before them. He would advise the noble lord, however, to revert to the tax on iron, in preference to an increase of the assessed taxes.
Sir W. W. Wynne
observed, that private brewers generally used double the quantity of malt and hops to that consumed by the public brewer, for producing the same quantity of beer; and, therefore, as much expense attended the private brewer, as the consumer of beer from public breweries. Besides, it was not always in the option of an individual to have recourse to public brewers: he could state that, in the whole principality of Wales, there was only one man of that description.
Mr. W. Smith
considered the clamour that had been raised against the tax, as unnecessary and excessive. He thought, that if the people of that part of the country, with which the last hon. gent. who spoke was connected, put less malt into their beer, both their health and their morals would be improved by the change.
528
Sir W. W. Wynne
in reply, observed that they used malt and hops; which the public brewers did not
Mr. Calvert
was not aware of any peculiar pressure on the labouring poor, which had been produced by taxes lately imposed. The demand for labour had increased; and with it, the increase of wages; but the middle ranks of society had felt the pressure much more severely.
Mr. Rose
thought, that the situation of the public brewer was not such as called for favour and protection, by imposing a countervailing duty on private brewers. The quantity of malt used by the public brewer was inconsiderable, when compared with that used by the private brewer. It had been found, that the porter brewers of London produced three barrels and a half of beer from eight bushels; while the private brewer required ten bushels to produce a hogshead. It had been calculated, that the public brewers produced as much from 2,400,000 bushels, as the private brewers from 7 millions of bushels. He could not, therefore, see how the public would gain, by throwing the production of beer principally into the hands of the brewers; as what might be gained by the increase of the duty on beer, might be lost by the defalcation of that on malt.
Mr. Whitbread
declared, that the concern to which he belonged did not produce their beer in the proportions by the hon. gent. who spoke last. So far as he recollected, the hon. gentleman's statement was not even correct; for the quantity there alluded to was not 3½, but 3¼ barrels. But, even in that proportion, he asserted that the calculation did not apply to the house in which he was concerned. Surely, however, it must be seen, that the public brewer must know little of his trade, and make little of his capital, if he could not produce a better article out of a smaller quantity of malt and hops than a private brewer could.
Mr. Alderman Combe
confirmed the correctness of this calculation; and observed, that the public brewer had great advantages over the private, in respect of the quantity from the same materials, arising from superior skill and machinery.— It was then ordered, that the house resolve itself into a committee of ways and means on Monday next.
[MUTINY BILL.] Mr. Secretary Windham
having moved the order of the day for, the third reading of the Mutiny bill,
529
Mr. Wallace
said, that his first and leading objection to the bill was, that it was a violent infraction of the undoubted prerogative of the crown, which the Constitution of the country had invested with the power of enlisting forces for such a time of service as his majesty might think proper. What was still more, it even precluded the king from the exercise of his prerogative, in giving a negative to the measure, as it was tacked to the Mutiny bill, to Winch his majesty must give his assent, or leave his dominions without an army. He could not conceive what was to be gained by making that pledge different from what the soldier had from the crown, and that Which he was to have from the parliament; but the mischievous tendency of degrading the crown, and taking away that responsibility which parliament: ought to have over any bad and wicked ministers, who might be disposed to abuse the authority vested in them. He was at a loss which most to admire, the boldness of the right hon. secretary, in proposing So strange a plan, or his tardiness in bringing it forward. He had not done away by it any thing that was likely to affect the feelings of the existing army. There could, indeed be no doubt of their loyalty and attachment; but it should, at the same time, be considered, that the army was composed of men alive and quick to every sense of injury. According to the doctrine of the right hon. secretary himself, the men were brought into the situation of soldiers by a system of frand, intoxication, crimping, and every sort of indirection. It says to them, "You have fought out battles, you have exalted the fame of the British army, you have covered the country with glory; but you shall not have the benefit of the present measure." Let the house then judge what must be the feelings of men who found themselves so treated. He should have less objection to the measure, if the new levies Were to be placed in separate corps, where no jealousies would arise amongst them; but as the thing was to be constituted now, one man in the ranks of a corps would have a great advantage over his comrade. in the present state of the army, there was no ground for invidious Comparisons; but under the new plan, it was quite different, as one set of men might quit the army at certain periods, or towards the close of their terms force their officers to relax their discipline, in order to retain them; whereas, another set were compelled to remain, and placed altogether on a different footing from their compani-
530
531
Mr. Wilberforce
declared, that he had not been able, till lately, to turn his attention to the consideration of this question; but upon considering it, he was convinced that it had been truly said, that it should not be considered merely as a military question, but as an appeal to the great principles of human nature, which gentlemen, who had not the advantage of a military education, might be competent to decide. In the consideration that he had thought it his duty to give to the subject, he had perused several of the military treatises which had lately been written, one by an hon. member of that house (General Stuart), and another professing to be a discussion of the present state of the English army, and both. these treatises met with his decided approbation. This was a circumstance which he only mentioned, that the house might not suppose he rose to speak upon a military question, without having previously taken any pains to inform his judgment. It was allowed on all hands, that the great question at Present, was to increase the regular army.
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533
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Mr. Hiley Addington
could not avoid shortly expressing his sentiments upon the important question then before the house. He thought that his right hon. friend (Mr.
536
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General Tarleton
said, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) looked to the army not as an Englishman and a soldier, but as a philosopher, and as a philosopher of a very bad school, who knew nothing of the human mind on which his speculations were to operate. He had had some experience of limited service in Portugal, when the baron de Rolle, who had the command of a Swiss regiment, did not dare put them to ordinary duty, lest those whose time was expiring should quit the military life. Then wit, imagination, history, and every tiling else was pressed into the debate, excepting what belonged to it, for the mere purpose of doing what the lawyers called "blinking the question." Among the rest, the French service was held up as an example, and he would admit the wisdom of the maxim,
Fas est, et ab hoste doceri;
538
The Lord Advocate
did not exactly know to whom the hon. general alluded, when he styled him judge advocate, and his doubts were not wholly removed when the allusion was made to his observations, for they did not seem to have been correctly understood by that gallant officer. Limited service was the most successful way of procuring men; and to suppose they could not judge of the advantages of limited service, because they had not sustained the character, was as absurd as to imagine that a young woman could not tell the inducement that one of her sex might have in taking a husband, because she herself had not entered into the marriage state. In the country with which he was best ac-
539
three
five
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Mr. Johnstone
thought that the learned lord approved this measure only on account of the men who proposed it, as he had said that men could not be procured under the additional force act, where the advantages to the recruit were greater. He contended that in the present state of Europe none but the lowest orders could be expected to serve as soldiers. He had but little faith in the energies which had been ascribed, particularly to the soldiers of a free country, as the militia of a free country would always be superior to the regular army of a despotic government. He admitted that the army ought to be augmented, but thought an addition ought to be Made by enlisting from the militia.
Mr. Whitbread
contended that the object of his right hon. friend was to put an end to all the theories which had been brought forward for a long time past. Like a skilful surgeon, he was removing the bandages, in order that nature might have her way. He mentioned these theories, such as the quota bill, the provisional cavalry, the army of reserve act, and the additional force act, all of which had failed. He denied that there was any danger of exciting mutiny or discontent from this measure. He also contended that the calculations respecting the expence had been erroneous. He denied that this measure trenched, in the smallest degree, on the prerogative of the crown; for, unless the mutiny bill was passed every year, the king could not have a soldier. The instance of the East India Company's soldiers was .au answer to the objections relative to the colonial service. He contended that there was no danger of
541
Mr. S. Bourne
rose, and having lamented that the house was not in Possession of the military information which was so desirable on this subject, expressed his general disapprobation of the measure. It infringed on the prerogative of the crown, as it would preclude his majesty from availing himself of any future advantageous mode of raising men that might present itself. It. was objectionable as it related to the deliberations of the two houses of parliament. He was not aware of a precedent of such an important measure being brought forward such a shape, which might be attended with. serious consequences, endangering the delay in passing the Mutiny bill, until a period beyond that in which it would be required. The measure was as wanton and unnecessary as it objectionable. The experiment might have been tried without having destroyed the system from ,which the country was deriving a rapidly increasing supply. The depressed state of the manufactures of the kingdom would, he feared, soon afford an ample source to any mode of recruiting. —Alluding to the speech of a right hon. secretary on a late evening, he expressed his apprehension, that the country had not the means to become as great a military power as that right hon. gent. seemed so sanguinely to expect. To obtain this object, however, he thought that the best mode would have been to have raised men four different services and in different ways, instead of confining the recruiting to one description, and allowing the army to moulder away to the number of at least 30 or 40,000 men. Comparing the
542
Lord H. Petty
observed, that the clause to which the hon. gent. opposite principally directed their attention, did nothing more than what amounted to a declaration of the legislature, to continue for seven years, what formerly they were considered only to allow one. But the necessities of almost every state in Europe were now so much increased, that his majesty's ministers had felt it incumbent on them to make additional demands upon the population of the country for the preservation of the whole: this was but a modification of the royal prerogative, by which the king is entitled to call on the whole of his people to rise in arms for the
543
Mr. Canning
rose and spoke as follows.— "I rise, sir, not only for the purpose of replying to the noble lord who spoke last, but of recapitulating as shortly as I can the leading arguments by which this measure has been opposed, and which remain at this period of the discussion wholly unanswered; of reminding the house of the state in which the question now 'stands; and of conjuring them to avail themselves of this last opportunity, which is afforded them by the amendment of my hon. friend (Mr. S. Bourne), if not to save the regular army of the country altogether from the peril of the projected innovation, at least to disarm that innovation of part of the mischief with which it threatens to be attended.—The precise object of the amendment is to prevent the operation of the discharges during war: to prevent, if possible, the dismemberment or dissolution of the British army, at periods when the very safety of the country may depend upon its being kept together. the noble lord who spoke last has either misunderstood
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546
547
548
549
550
551
552
553
554
555
556
557
558
Mr. Secretary Fox
replied to the objections which had been urged against the measure by the right gent.; though the arguments so ably advanced early in the debate by his hon. friend (Mr. Wilberforce) still remained wholly unanswered. With respect to the army which it was necessary for this country to keep up, it surely would not be sufficient to have merely the same numerical force as in the time of king William and queen Anne; we must have a force adequate to the new situation of affairs; and if we wished to have influence on the continent, we must have an-army capable of acting there with effect, should circumstances present the opportunity. The right hon. gent. had spoken as if there were some who talked contemptuously of wealth. Who they were he could not tell—at least he never knew that ridicule of that sort had much success. But this at least was true, that wealth alone would not secure greatness, and that it a nation wished to preserve its eminence it must depend on the number and valour of its own soldiers, not on its money to pay mercenaries. To suppose that national greatness could be maintained without this, was to assert what was contrary to all principle; to all common sense; to ail experience. He then proceeded to consider the instances of the adoption of limited service in foreign armies, and contended, that not only the practice, but the successful practice, was justified by the example of foreign nations, particularly the French and Swiss. He then shewed that the spirit of liberty, in all times, had improved the soldier. Nor was this disproved by the cases of Alexander and Cæsar. The former triumphed over the Greeks divided, and over Asiatics, it was the triumph of Europeans comparatively free. To the case of Cæsar, many of his troops might believe the pretences he held out, that they fought for liberty against tyranny and aristocracy. As to what was said of the danger of adopting this measure it time of war, it it was good to be adopted, it ought to be begun in time of War as well as in time of peace, and to do so was what his
559
General Norton
was adverse to the measure, and in favour of the amendment.
Mr. Rose, jun.
said, that the experiment of limited service had not succeeded in France formerly. In the seven years war, when France, with a population of 24 millions, had only 140,000 French troops on foot, it was found impracticable to recruit them. And in the beginning of the American war the system was abandoned, and the republic had been too wise to adopt it. Besides, desertion had been very great in the French armies.
Mr. Perceval
amidst repeated cries of question! question! rose, and replied at some length, in answer to Mr. Fox, in the course of which he defended the proceedings of a former night, as perfectly parliamentary. —The question was then loudly called for, and the house divided, when there appeared, For the amendment, 103; against it 195. Majority 92.—The bill was then passed.—Adjourned at 4 o'clock on Saturday morning.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Saturday, June 7.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Alexander and several other members of the house of commons
560
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, June 9.
[Minutes.]
The royal assent was given by commission to the Irish Debenture bill, the Irish Revenue Collection bill, the Irish Malt bill, the Irish Spirits bill, the Irish Butter bill, the Franking bill, the Irish First Fruits bill, and several private bills. The commissioners were the lord Chancellor, earl Spencer, and lord Walsingham.—The Irish Stamp Duties bill passed through a committee and was reported.—Earl Spencer adverted to the notice he had given on Saturday of his intention to move for the 2nd reading of the Mutiny bill the next day; but understanding, that business of importance already stood for that day, he should move that the bill be read a second time on Wednesday. Lord Hawkesbury did not rise to object to the motion, but merely to give notice, that previous to the 2nd reading of the bill on Wednesday, he should move that there be laid before the house the opinions given by certain military officers, relative to enlistment for a term of years. The bill was ordered to be read a 2nd time on Wednesday, for which day the lords were ordered to be summoned.—Strangers were excluded; and the consideration of the evidence adduced on the trial of lord Melville was resumed. The discussion continued till half past eleven o'clock, when the further consideration of the subject was postponed till the next day. The learned judges attended.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, June 9.
[Minutes.]
A message from the Lords announced their lordships' assent to the Property Duty bill, the Irish Import and Export Regulation bill, and the Irish Additional Force Act Repeal bill. On the motion of sir J. Newport the Irish and English Corn Interchange bill was read a first time.
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AFFAIRS OF INDIA—FURRUCKABAD.] Mr. Paull
presented to the house the following:
"Article of Charge of High Crimes and Misdemeanors committed by Richard Colley, marquis Wellesley, in his transactions with respect to the Nabob of Furruckabad.
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The province of Furruckabad " and its dependencies should be ceded in " perpetual sovereignty to the honourable the " East India Company
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[ASSESSED TAXES.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee of ways and means,
Lord Herny Petty
observed, that after what had been already said on the subject to which he was now to call the attention of the house, it would be unnecessary for him to trouble the committee at any length. He need do nothing more than state, that, according to the intimation which he had given on a former occasion, it was proposed to raise 10 per cent. on the amount of the assessed taxes. He would accordingly now move a resolution to that effect. With regard to the other motions which he had to submit to the house, it related to the exemptions which it was in contemplation to allow to persons having small incomes and large families. The object of it was to allow a deduction of four per cent. for every child, in cases of assessment under the amount of 401. As far as the ratio extended, this would apply to incomes up to the amount of one thousand, or between one and two thousand pounds. This would
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Mr. Huskisson
expressed some doubts as to the produce of the tax. He rather apprehended that it would not turn out so productive as might be at first expected. There was a difference between the sum that might be calculated on the assessment and the sum that might be received in the exchequer. It ought to be recollected that the property-tax had been raised from 61/2 to 10 per cent. and the effect of this certainly would be to induce people to reduce their establishments, so as to be liable to a snider portion of the assessed taxes.
Mr. Francis
having before expressed his opinion that no new taxes were necessary for the service of the present year, and having pointed out a mode (taxing foreign property in the funds), by which a large sum might be procured, it could not be supposed that he could be very well disposed to any tax whatever. However he had no particular objection to this mode beyond what he would have to any other.
Mr. Dent
observed, that the principle of exemption of foreign property in the funds from the property-tax, applied to the parish taxes. He was proceeding to complain of the hardships under which small annuities laboured, when he was stopped by the chairman, who stated, that the only question at present was with regard to the assessed taxes.
Mr. Baker
contended that the hon, gent. (Mr. Huskisson) was incorrect in his statement as to the effects which the raising of the property-tax would have on the produce of the tax now proposed. The fact was that every one must give an account of his establishment as it was the preceding year, and therefore could not avoid this tax for the present.
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Mr. Bastard
said, he did not rise for the purpose of opposing the tax, or of imputing any blame to the noble lord for bringing it forward, as he had no doubt he was obliged to do so from the peculiar situation in which he found the country when he came into office. The pressure on the people was now become so very great, that taxation, he was afraid, had arrived at almost its neplus ultra. He wished, therefore, the noble lord would turn his mind towards such part of the public property, as it was called, as might be touched; for instance, the waste lands, in order to obviate the necessity of raising new taxes another year.
Lord H. Petty
said, he hoped he should be able to make the waste lands come in aid of taxes the next year.—The resolution was then read and agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.
[ELECTION TREATING BILL.] Mr. Tierney
moved the third reading of the Election Treating bill.
Mr. Langhm
objected to it, on the ground, that it was not an act to explain and amend the act of king William, but purported to be a declaratory bill, and really was not so; for it declared it to be lawful to give money to a third person to pay the voter for loss of time, though not for carriages; whereas, the act of king William did not allow any money at all to be given. He thought the bill was altogether unnecessary, and would, therefore, move as an amendment, that it be Lead a third time this day 3 months.
Lord A. Hamilton
said, that the amendments made in the committee on the bill, though satisfactory to some gentlemen, did not remove his objections altogether. It would in substance make no material alteration in the law as it stood at present, and he should oppose it, as not being operative to any effective purpose.
Mr. Morris
observed, that the statute of William, in forbidding candidates being at the expence of supplying meat and drink to the voters, was founded upon salutary principles. This bill professed to be declaratory of that law, but as it allowed the payment of expences for loss of time, it left an opening for many abuses. There could be no standard for the amount of such charges, as the time of one man must be much more valuable than that of another. If at present there was no doubt as to the law, there could be no occasion for a declaratory bill, and he did not find that there was any contrariety in the decisions either of the courts of law, or of committees on
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Sir W. Dolben
said, that he had been for many years a member of parliament, and had seen much of election contests. He had seen much of elections, and he did not know any way so effectual for correcting the bribery at elections, as that the expences of the out-voters should be paid jointly by the contending candidates, by previously depositing a sum of money in the hands of the returning officer, for defraying the expences of every elector who should apply for them.
Sir R. Buxton
thought the opinion expressed by the hon. baronet a very unconstitutional one, and hoped the house would never sanction the payment of any money for a seat in parliament.
Sir W. Dolben
said, he had only spoken as to the custom and practice, and not as to the theory of the constitution upon that doctrine.
Mr. Baker
thought the hon. baronet was in an error, and misled by the right exercised by the returning officers, of calling upon candidates to pay jointly the expences of erecting the hustings, &c. He said, he liked the bill in its original state, which would prevent candidates, or their friends, from being at any expence whatever for elections. He saw no necessity for any charge, as the object was to have a free election. By the bill now under consideration, the candidate, though he paid no money directly, might agree with any innkeeper for the expence of carriages for conveyance; and that being done, the other charge of meat and drink must necessarily follow. If persons abandoned those places where they had votes, by residing elsewhere, they had no right to expect conveyance at the expence of the candidate; and when a man purchased even a small freehold in a place different from that of his residence, he did not do so in contemplation of a candidate being at the expence of his exercising his right of franchise. Nothing could, in his opinion, be so effectual in securing free elections, as a public and strict law, to prohibit the candidates from being at any expence.
Mr. Tierney
said, that as the proposer of this measure, he stood in the extraordinary situation, that, having in the committee got rid of a number of strong objections, his bill seemed to have gained a greater number of enemies. He had omitted those parts to which the greatest opposition was made, and yet it did not appear that he had
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Mr. Secretary Fox
admitted it to be strange enough that his right hon. friend Was in that situation in which friends and foes equally complained of his bill, and for his own part, if no stronger arguments were adduced to spew that such a number of electors should be disfranchised, he felt it his duty to retain all his former objections. He voted indeed for the bill going into a committee, but he not find the invincible objections to it removed. He would not go into the theory of the constitution upon this point, but he had no hesitation in saying, that in our present situation, he was a decided enemy to any dimunition of the electors. His right honourable friend was not well founded in his last observation; for the negative of that house upon a bill, could neither be argued nor received either in the courts of
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[CHELSEA HOSPITAL BILL.] Mr. Secretary Windham
moved the recommitment of this bill.
Mr. Bastard
observed, that an allowance was made to certain corps of volunteers, for clothing, from June to October, and wished to know whether it was to be generally extended to them all?
Mr. Windham
replied, that he knew of nothing which could produce any difference in the situation of the volunteers from that which was originally proposed at the g opening of time plan.
Mr. Huskisson
objected to the extraordinary power which the bill gave to the crown, of granting pensions, of the amount of which there was no estimate before the house.
Mr. Windham
replied, that those pensions would be annually under the inspection of parliament, as they were before.
Mr. Huskisson
remarked, that the expences were always hitherto before the house, but that it was now binding its faith to make them good without knowing their amount.
Mr. Windham
answered, that the parliament would have cognizance of them when it was called upon for the payment.
Sir J. Pulteney
said, the clause would give the soldier a legislative right to a pension, whether he by his conduct deserved it or not, as it went by length of service. He hoped some regulations would be made to prevent men, who had behaved improperly, from enjoying that benefit; and, upon the whole, thought it would be better to leave it, as before, at the discretion of the crown.
Mr. Windham
said, in reply, that if a man behaved improperly, he was liable to be deprived of the benefit of the provision by the sentence of a general court-martial.
Dr. Laurence
said, he could not help re-
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Sir J. Pulteney
explained, that he did not mean to object to the clause, but should prefer leaving all such things, as usual, at the discretion of the crown.
Mr. Bastard
thought that house should always reserve to itself a controul in the disposal of money, which it was now parting with.
Mr. Fox
observed, that the clause gave the crown no other power, but that of granting the pensions; the house retained the discretion of providing the money.
Mr. Windham
also stated, that the measure did not, in that respect, put the country in a different situation from what it was in at present, in respect to the prerogative of the crown, and only bound the parliament to make good the engagements entered into with the soldiers.—After some further conversation, the different clauses were agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.
[LINEW DRAWBACK BILL.] Mr. Foster
said, there was an order in the paper for the second reading of the Linen Drawback bill. Counsel were to be heard on it; and he would be guided by the gentlemen at the opposite side of the house, whether it should be postponed or not; for his part, he thought, that on account of the state of the house, several gentlemen being absent who wished to hear the matter discussed, it would be better to postpone the 2nd reading until Wednesday next, to which day he then moved it should be deferred.
Lord A. Hamilton
said, that being convinced that the measure was not yet advisable, he would move, that instead of Wednesday next, should be inserted this day three months.
Mr. Magens
made a few observations on the state of the trade, from the consideration of which he said, he was very desirous of seconding the motion of the noble lord.
Lord Temple
said, he thought it necessary that this business should be explained to the house, before it was absolutely decided on. The board of trade had formerly come to a resolution to allow a drawback on the duties on striped and checked linens, but not on plain; the object of this was, to encrease the exportation of our plain linens; but, by a mistake in the working of the
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Mr. Foster
thought the noble lord (Temple) should have explained the matter more fully. After this mistake in the wording of the act had been discovered, he had proposed that the bill he had the honour of introducing, should not take effect, until every order that could possibly go from this country to foreign merchants, should have been executed. By the 1st of Nov. he conceived that these order would be perfected; but if other gentlemen did not think so, that was no reason why the bill should be thrown out entirely. It was a subject that could be considered, and settled in a committee; and he therefore thought, that the amendment should not be allowed, but that the bill should be committed, when a time might be fixed on to preclude all possibility of the merchants, who had sent orders, being injured.
Lord Temple
in explanation, said, the term from which this bill was to have effect could not be agreed on, and that was his reason for supporting the amendment.
Lord H. Petty
said, as it was agreed by all that there was a mistake, it should be rectified as soon as possible. The committee he considered as the proper place to deliberate on the term that should be allowed; he believed it was required, that until the 1st of March should be allowed, and he hoped his noble friends would consent to have the matter discussed in a committee.
Mr. Rose
agreed with the noble lord, and said, that the neglect was in a measure attributable to him, and he would be very sorry, on that account, that every chance of rectifying it should be taken away.
Sir J. Newport
hoped the noble lord would withdraw his amendment, as, by rejecting the bill in the present stare, it would appear as if the principle was objected to, when in reality, the only question was with regard to time, and he was sure the hon. gent.(Mr. Foster) would be willing to make every allowance.—It was then agreed, that both the motions should be withdraw and bill was read a 2nd time, and ordered: to be committed on Thursday next.
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 10.
[MINUTES.]
The house proceeded in the appeal from the court of chancery, "Mary Georgiana Seymour, an infant, by her next friend, against the earl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour." The solicitor general, at considerable length, went over most of the arguments urged in this cause in the court of chancery, and was followed on the same side by Mr. Agar. The further consideration of the appeal was then postponed till the next day. During the hearing of the appeal, the bishop of Winchester addressed the house in further confirmation of an affidavit made by his lordship, which had been referred to by the solicitor-general relative to the education of Miss Seymour in the faith of the church of England. The Lord Chancellor observed, that whatever degree of respect they might entertain for the opinions of the right reverend prelate, their lordships could only look to what was in evidence before them.—The Irish Stamp Duties bill was read a third time and passed.—Strangers were excluded, whilst their lordships discussed some matter of privilege brought forward by the earl of Limerick. The discussion continued some time. Strangers were re-admitted, but no public business was done, and very soon afterwards they were again excluded; when the consideration of the evidence adduced on the trial of lord Melville was resumed; and an order was made to proceed further on the trial of lord Melville on Thursday, and a message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, June 10.
[MINUTES.] Sir J. Anderson
brought up a petition from the parish of St. Leonard Shoreditch, in favour of the East-London water works bill.—On the motion of sir J. Sinclair, it was ordered to be an instruction to the committee appointed to consider of the laws relative to waggons, &c. on the highways throughout the united kingdom, to take into their consideration the act of the 28th of the king, c.27, relative to outside passengers on stage coaches.—Mr. Vansittart brought up the Scotch Distillery bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on Thursday next, and to be printed.—The Irish Malt Duty bill was read a third time and
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[ASSESSED TAXES.BILL.]
On the motion of lord Henry Petty the house went into a committee on the Assessed Taxes bill.
Lord Henry Petty
moved a resolution, "That an allowance, not exceeding 4l. per cent. per annum, be granted to every person having more than two children born in lawful wedlock, and bonâfide maintained at the expence of such person, out of the duties charged by an act of the 43d year of his present majesty, for repealing the several duties under the management of the commissioners for the affairs of taxes, and granting new duties in lieu thereof, and by an act of the 45th year of his present majesty, for granting certain duties on horses, for each of such children above two, in case the total amount of such persons' assessment or assessments for a year under the said Acts, after all appeals thereon shall have been heard and determined, shall be under 401."
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Mr. Huskisson
wished to know whether this was meant as a permanent exemption, or only as an alleviation of the hardships of the Property tax. In either case, however, he thought it liable to considerable objections. If the deduction was allowed in this case, the principle should go a great deal farther, and be in fairness allowed in other taxes. The Stamp Duties were very considerable on persons, for instance, engaged in chancery proceedings, where the expence of the suit was greatly increased by the price and the number of stamps that would be necessary. He did not see how the exemption could be brought to operate with equality in any case: and if extended generally, must be a great drawback on the amount of the taxes. Besides, a man who had a large family of children, must be compelled by that very circumstance, to have a larger house, and pay more to the Assessed taxes; and to equalize the system, would require a particular law for every particular family. A man also, on account of having the number of working horses, windows, or other things necessary to his trade, and having also a large family, might be obliged to pay more than 401. to the Assessed taxes, and therefore the additional 10l. per cent. into the bargain; but if from other circumstances his Assessed taxes should be only 39l. he would pay nothing to this duty; though he would be saddled with the whole, if his taxes amounted to one shilling above 40l.
Lord Henry Petty
replied, that as to the general inconvenience of taxes, if it was applied to individual cases, it would be impossible. to agree about any one of them. The object of the measure was not to afford a general, but a partial relief, and the inconvenience complained of would be much greater, if the principle had been introduced into the Property tax. As to whether it should be made perpetual or not, that must be matter for future consideration, and, dependent on the circumstances of the times, and was a subject on which he would not pledge himself, and could not tie up the discretion of parliament. The principle and object of the measure was, that when a man kept a large house, not for luxury, but from the necessities of his family, he should be exempted.
Mr. Huskisson
did not think that there was any difficulty applicable to the same principle in the Property tax, which would not apply to this.
Lord H. Petty
observed, that if there
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Mr. Wilberforce
thought it no more than fair and just, that persons who were obliged to pay more to the Assessed taxes on account of the largeness of their families, should have an allowance made to them upon that account.
Mr. Huskisson
wished to know how much these exemptions would take from the produce of the tax?
Lord H. Petty
replied, that he supposed they might take about 2O0,000l.—The resolution was then agreed to, and the report ordered to be received to-morrow.
[ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.] Mr. Secretary Fox
rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to submit to the house a Resolution on this subject, and spoke as follows:—Before, sir, I proceed to state the grounds on which I look with confidence for the almost unanimous countenance of the house in this measure, I feel myself called upon to say a few words by way of apology for being the person to come forward upon the present occasion. For the last sixteen or seventeen years of my life, I have been in the habit of uniformly and strenuously supporting the several motions made by a respectable gentleman (Mr. Wilberforce), who has so often, by his meritorious exertions on this subject, attracted the applause of this house, and claimed the admiration of the public. During the long period that I found it in such excellent, hands, it was impossible for me to feel the slightest disposition to take it out of them. I am still of the same opinion; and cannot but think it would have been much better, if the same hon. member and his friends had retained it in their own hands, and they might certainly have depended upon me, and those with whom I have the honour to act, for the same ardent support which we have always uniformly given them. But, sir, the hon. member, and many of his friends, seem so strongly to entertain different sentiments in that respect, from me, that I submitted my own opinion to theirs, and now assume the task, reluctantly, on that account, but on every other, most gladly. So fully am I impressed with the vast importance and necessity of attaining what will be the object of my motion this day, that if, during the almost forty years that I have now had the honour of a seat in parliament, I bad been so fortunate as to accomplish that, and that only, I should think I had done enough, and could retire
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Sir Ralph Milbanke
rose to second the motion. He should always, he said, endeavour to suppress a trade so unjust and so degrading to humanity; and he wished it to be remembered, that he had on every occasion given his vote for the abolition of
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General Tarleton
said he felt some astonishment at the manner in which, and the time when, the right hon. secretary had thought proper to bring forward this Resolution. It was wholly uncalled for by any part of the country, and introduced seemingly for no other purpose, than to shew that he had the power to carry his point. The house had certainly expressed sentiments inimical to the trade, and favourable to its abolition; which, however, it had never thought proper to follow up by any, efficient measure. But the former resolutions were brought forward in periods of profound peace, when they were not pregnant with any such danger as at present, when the country was involved in an arduous war, and plunged in a situation more critical than at any former period of its history. Why the right hon gent. should have chosen such a moment for bringing forward the motion, was to him most astonishing, nor could he account for it upon any other principle than that of gratifying, for certain political purpose, the inclinations of an hon. member below him (Mr. Wilberforce), who was so extremely zealots, upon this subject, that he never could hear the Slave Trade mentioned without starting as it he saw a ghost, and exclaiming abolition! abolition! It was therefore most probable, that the right hon. gent. had in view to cultivate a new coalition in that house for the remainder of the session. He was aware, that in the course of the former. investigations which took place upon this subject, a most voluminous body of evidence had been laid before parliament. Much of that evidence was in favour, and much against the abolition; and whatever was the resolution, at that time adopted, it did not appear that parliament had since thought it wise to follow it up; but before the house should proceed to adopt the resolution now proposed, he felt it his duty to call their attention to tine situation of Li-
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Mr. Francis
said, it was certainly in the power of the hon. general's constituents to petition the house for compensation for the losses they would sustain from the abolition of this trade; but he, for his part, would
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Lord Castlereagh
agreed with the hon. gent. who just sat down, that it was better, and he conceived it would be more consistent with the principle the right. hon. secretary had always entertained, to bring in a bill, even at this late period of the sessions, than to proceed on this indefinite resolution. This motion, a mere declaration of an intention to act, without naming any time, or any particular manner of acting, appeared to him to be of no use, except, perhaps, that of keeping up, for a little longer, the old
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The Solicitor General
said, he should have much more cordially supported a motion for leave to bring in a bill for the immediate abolition of this abominable traffic: yet still, he thought the motion ought to be supported, as pledging the house to take the most speedy and practicable means to abolish it. Surely, if it were the sense of the house to adopt, in the present session, any measure more prompt and efficient for the purpose, this resolution would oppose no impediment to a purpose so desirable. The noble lord who had just sat down had said the resolution was vague and indefinite. Its object, he conceived to be .unequivocally explicit, and its purpose to revive the resolution of the house in 1792, which had not been acted upon. It was not his wish at this moment, to enter into a general discussion upon the Slave Trade, for what could there be offered to the house in vindication of a commerce so detestable, but arguments already refuted, and assertions long since disproved? It was hardly fair to say, the house had not done any thing in pursuance of its former resolution; for in the session before last it had passed a bill for the purpose, which was rejected in the other house of parliament, and. another was brought in last session, which miscarried, owing to the accident of a thin house, and a concerted plan to defeat the measure. He knew well that sometimes corrupt systems
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General Gascoyne
said, that with respect to the Abolition of the Slave Trade, unless the house did something effectual, they would do a great deal of mischief; for the subject would now be stirred afresh; it would go abroad, and be talked of in other places; it would be agitated with warmth in the colonies, where it would rouse feelings that had in a great measure subsided, raise expectations that would be disappointed, and, in fact, prove pregnant with more injurious consequences than many gentlemen could well conceive. He was well assured it would prove highly injurious to our
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Mr. Wilberforce
said, that with regard to one part of the hon. general's speech, he was doubtful whether he should not have interrupted him by calling him to order. But if the hon. gent. could believe that slavery was sanctioned by our holy religion, he should only feel disposed to pity his weakness and error, and should endeavour to rectify his mistake in the spirit of mildness and conciliation. It was the glory of our religion, that it not only forbade all those odious means by which slaves were procured, but expressly prohibited the practice of man-stealing, and called us to act on a principle of universal philanthrophy, and kind good-will to all men. But he should ever deprecate the
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Sir W. Young
thought this resolution might tend to raise hopes and expectations which might have a very mischievous tendency. He would rather wish the subject had been taken up by a bill; in which case, all the merits of the question might have been discussed in that house, and then sent to the lords for their consideration. If, however, this resolution had been proposed at the beginning of a session, he would not have objected to it, because it might have been followed by a bill before the close of it; but now so near the close, and when they might not, on separating, meet again before January, a resolution of this kind would be agitated in the colonies, and might produce much mischief among the negroes. He should, therefore, oppose the. motion.
Lord Henry Petty
said, he should certainly have given the preference to a bill for the immediate abolition of this abominable traffic; but it had been most eloquently and forcibly shewn by his right hon. friend, that the lateness of the session would not allow the practicability of such a measure. What, then, had his right hon. friend done? After the longest deliberation that, he believed, had ever been given to a resolution of that or any other legislature in the world—after a resolution of that house passed in 1792, that this abominable traffic should be abolished in 1800, his rt. hon. friend, in 1806, a period of 14. years, calls on the house to agree with him in a resolution, the object of which was to remove from the house that degree of shame and disgrace, which they had so long laboured under, from an apparent dereliction of a resolution so solemnly passed, and a pledge so seriously given, on a subject of such vast importance, after the most mature deliberation, and most ample discussions. The noble lord (Castlereagh) by his argument, seemed to think this resolution must be sent to the other house, and that there would be something indecorous in so doing; he could not, however, see it at all in that light. What right had the noble lord, or what reason had the house
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Mr. Rose
said as far as regarded the question of the Abolition of the Slave Trade, his opinion was still consistent with that which he had on all occasions expressed; and it was not altered with respect to the season and manner in which the question was brought before the house, as he considered this not less objectionable than any hitherto proposed. He had long ago stated his opinion of the manner in which the great and humane object could alone be attained: it was, that a progressive duty should be imposed upon the importation of slaves into the West Indies, until at last it should amount to such an impost as would prove an absolute prohibition of the traffic, and that the bounty should not be a source of emolument to the state, but be paid to the mothers of slaves born in the islands, until they had borne a certain number, when they should be considered free. He did not think the West Indian Planters had had fair play; they bad been goaded by the hon. gent. who had for years agitated the question in that house, with the requisition of a total and immediate abolition, or nothing at all. To the charge of a right hon. gent. that the trade was a system of rapine, bloodshed, and murder, he would only say, that he had read every tittle of the evidence collected on the subject, and was at a loss to form from it an opinion of the measure; that evidence was clogged with some unfounded relations, particularly the story of a ship under the command of admiral Nugent having lost 80 out of a cargo of slaves, from their being made to "walk "the board," in which there was not a syllable of truth. He was not becoming the defender of what was practised towards the slaves; undoubtedly, much was indefensible. His objection to the present proposition was, that it was indefinite and vague, and he thought it would be putting the house of lords in a situation in which they ought not to be placed, to ask of them to commit themselves to a measure so uncertain as to its ultimate object. He had argued against the abolition of the trade,
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Lord H. Petty
in explanation, said, that he had not so wild an object in view, as the issuing of a proclamation immediately after the passing of this resolution, for granting freedom to all negroes in our West India islands, as the right hon. gent. seemed to apprehend; but if by gradual progress the slaves could be led on to a fit state for freedom, he was certainly an advocate for that object.
Mr. Barham
said, he considered it to be the fault of those by whom this question had been before introduced, that the Slave Trade was not ere this entirely abolished. Hand in hand with the proposition for the measure, should be the assurance to those who would be affected by it, that every claim of compensation would be attended to, and that it was an object intended to be effected at the expence of the country, and not of individuals. It would be in vain to look to the accomplishment of the object, unless this course was adopted, as not all the navy of England could prevent the landing of contraband cargoes by the planters of the islands, in case the traffic should be prohibited by the English parliament. He was an advocate for the abolition of the trade, by rendering slaves capable of the enjoyment of freedom; but he entertained faint hopes of the accomplishment of that end, as no means could be at present devised to induce free labour: no reward was a sufficient stimulus to the voluntary exertion of the negro, as he had no wants in a country, where the labour of a week would supply the wants of a year. For forty or fifty years, nothing had been omitted in the colonies to counteract the decrease of slaves by death, but, in some, there was no instance of a child having been born for a very considerable period. If the amelioration of their condition could be such as to prevent this decrease, it would be a most desirable object, and would go far to obviate the necessity of the continuance of the trade.
Sir J. Newport
said, he would venture to assert, that whatever difference of opinion might exist in this country, the general accordant sentiment of the people of Ireland was strongly in favour of the abolition of the slave trade. So great was the detestation of that abominable traffic, that when a set of commercial gentlemen lately proposed, in a maritime district, a participation
601
Mr. Canning
said, he thought it impossible for the ingenuity of man to devise a form of words contributing to the repeal of the Slave Trade that he should not concur in; he lamented, however, that the house had not the subject more fully before them, and censured his majesty's ministers for not bringing it more tangibly and efficiently forward, during the vacant interval that presented itself between the recess and the time that the right hon. secretary (Mr. Windham) brought forward his military plan.
Mr. Manning
thought the debate on the present occasion might as well have been spared, as tending merely to give alarm to those concerned in West India Property, and being, in fact, nothing more than a repetition of the resolution of the house in the year 1792. Every man connected with the colonies had an undoubted right to the protection of parliament. This was a bonâfide British trade, acknowledged in the public statutes so long ago as the time of queen Elizabeth, and it was the duty of that house, to afford a remuneration to those who might be injured by its prohibition. The situation of St. Domingo could not but be in the contemplation of gentlemen, and he exhorted them fully to weigh all the consequences of the measure proposed. Without conciliating the planters, he was sure the house would never effect their object; and he earnestly entreated them, before the next Session, to turn their attention to the claims of the proprietors, who would be affected by it.
Mr. W. Smith
said, he hoped after that night, the house would hear no more of the silly confusion of abolition of the trade, and emancipation of the negroes, as the latter had been as constantly denied by, as attri-
602
Mr. Windham
assured the house, that at present he wished nothing more than the abolition of the slave trade; when a proper period, however, should arrive, and that the concurrence of other powers should be obtained, he would not hesitate to, say that slavery itself ought not to be suffered to remain among the institutions of any civilized state.
Mr. Fox
made a most able and animated reply, which, we regret it is not in our power to detail at length. It had been, stated that he had been lukewarm upon the present question; but he appealed to the house whether he had not zealously and uniformly reprobated the slave trade. It had been said, that this might have been brought forward at an earlier period, to this he partly pleaded guilty; but it was the opinion of those with whom he had the honour to act, that the Colonial bill should first pass, and then they could bring forward this measure with more propriety. The house, be con-
603
Mr. Wilberforce
then rose, pursuant to notice; and having prefaced his motion by a short speech, moved the House. "That an humble Address be presented to his majesty, beseeching his majesty to take such measures as in his wisdom he shall judge proper, for establishing by negotiation with foreign powers, a concert and agreement for abolishing the African Slave Trade; and for affording assistance mutually towards carrying into execution any regulations which may be adopted by any or all of the contracting parties for accomplishing their common purpose; assuring his majesty, that this house, feeling the justice and honour of the
British
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HOUSE OF LORDS
Wednesday, June 11.
[Minutes.]
Their lordships proceeded further in the Appeal "Seymour v. the earl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour." Mr. Perceval was heard on the part of the respondents, after which the further consideration of the appeal was postponed till Friday.—The Earl of Elgin took the oaths and his seat.—Earl Stanhope rose to address the house with respect to the form of proceeding the next day in Westminster Hall. Upon which strangers were excluded, and the discussion continued for near two hours.—Lord Eldon presented a petition from W. Watson, esq. the serjeant at arms, stating the inadequacy of the emoluments attached to the office, which were unequal to the expenditure necessary in executing its duties; and praying for such relief as the house should think fit. His lordship supported the object of the petition, and was seconded by Earl Spencer. The petition was ordered to be referred to a committee on Monday.—An undefended appeal having been heard and decided upon, Lord Eldon took the oportunity of giving notice, that he should, next session, bring forward some measure respecting costs in appeals, as at present the house could not award more than 200l, although the expences might actually amount to 7 or 800l. It then became an object with some persons to appeal to that house, merely for the purpose of gaining time, in cases where the interest of the money in the mean time, before the appeal could be. heard, rendered the costs to be ultimately paid a matter of little consequence. The, Lord Chancellor said, it was a great abuse, and ought to be remedied.
[MILITARY OPINIONS RELATING TO THE ARMY,] Lord Hawkesbury
adverted to the opinions which had been given by several general officers on the subject of enlisting for a term of years, and which, he said, had been called for in consequence of an opinion entertained by members of the late and preceding administrations that such an alteration in the mode of enlistment would be productive of benefit to the army. In consequence, however, of. the tenor of the opinions which were given to his royal highness the Commander in Chief on being then called for, the idea of proposing enlistment for a term, of years was abandoned. The present administration had, without any additional grounds whereon to found an
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The Earl of Moira
considered the production of the opinions alluded to as unnecessary and improper. He had, amongst other officers, been called upon for his opinion, in a letter from his royal highness the Commander in Chief, which was marked 'confidential,' and to which he gave an answer, containing his opinion upon the subject, but which he had not the most distant supposition was ever to be laid before parliament. The same idea might probably influence most of the officers who gave their opinions; and who, not conceiving that their sentiments, thus confidentially given, were ever to be made public, might give their opinions in a diffuse and prolix style, or in a manner very different to that which they would have done, had they conceived that their letters were to be laid before parliament; he thought, therefore, it would be indelicate to drag forward opinions, thus privately and confidentially given, before a public assembly, and where the far greater part of the officers who had pronounced such opinions would have no opportunity of explaining their sentiments. Most of these opinions also were those of military men, and not of statesmen; they related to the effect on the interior discipline of regiments, which the measure proposed in the bill before the house might produce, rather than to those enlarged views upon the subject which must necessarily be entertained in that house. He could not, therefore, perceive any good that could be produced, by agreeing to the motion of the noble lord, whilst, at the same time, be deprecated any
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The Duke of Montrose
contended, that the papers moved for by his noble friend ought to be produced, in order that many noble lords who had not had an opportunity of considering the question in the manner in which it had come before the late ministers, might see distinctly the grounds on which they had acted, in abandoning that measure, which was now brought forward by his majesty's present ministers. He thought also that the opinions of the officers who had been called upon, having been given in the manner in which they were to the Commander in Chief, might fairly be laid before parliament without the slightest indelicacy towards these officers.
The Earl of Suffolk
spoke shortly against the motion, and expressed his opinion, that as other means had failed, it was proper to try the experiment of recruiting the army by means of enlisting for a term of years.
Lord Mulgrave
thought a different interpretation ought to be put upon the word "confidential" to that given by the noble earl (Moira). From the letters being marked 'confidential,' he should have conceived that it was only intended that the officers receiving them were not to mention the subject to others, or make it a matter of general conversation, but not that they were to call upon the Commander in Chief to keep their opinions secret after they had delivered them. He, as one of the officers called upon, had given air opinion favourable to enlistment for a term of years, but, at the same time, an opinion to which the measure now before the house had scarcely any similarity. He was of opinion that the reason given by the noble earl why the papers ought not to be produced was the very reason why they ought, namely, that in general they were only the opinions of military officers, and not those of statesmen. The house was too enlightened to require opinions from others as to general measures of legislation; but on a subject like the present they wanted military information, and that would be afforded by the production of these papers.
Lord Grenville
conceived that the ques-
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House of Commons.
Wednesday, June 11.
[MINUTES.] Sir T. Metcalfe
obtained leave to bring in a bill for incorporating the Globe Insurance Company.—Mr. Alderman Combe obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend so much of an act for the improvement of the port of London, as related to the compensations to be granted in certain cases.—A message from the Lords announced that their lordships had resolved to proceed farther on the trial of lord Melville the next day, at ten of the o'clock, in Westminster-hall; and that they had agreed to the Irish stamp-duty bill. The Speaker mentioned, that, in consequence of this message; he would take the
608
[WEST INDIA ACCOUNTS BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
moved for the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a committee on the West India Accounts bill.
Mr. Rose
wished, that, considering the state of ignorance in which the house was on this subject, the noble lord would allow at least 24 hours to examine into it. With a view to induce him to do this, he entered at some length into what had been done before, for correcting the West India abuses, and into the merits of this bill. He stated, that in 1797 he himself had corresponded with the West India commissioners of the customs, respecting the abuses committed in the West Indies, and that the consequence was, that the commissary-general was superseded; that the commissioners were ordered to make inquiries into the abuses, and to report to the treasury; that the auditors had been applied to, in order to learn whether any increase of their establishment would enable them to bring up these accounts; that the auditors had answered, that this business would require 16 additional clerks, and four additional inspectors, and that these must go through a gradual course of instruction; that the treasury had taken this answer into consideration the day on which it was given in, and the consequence of all had been, the act which by the present bill was intended to be repealed. The noble lord, he said, had come down to the house, out of breath, mentioned that monstrous abuses had been discovered, and given notice that he would, in a short time, state to the house what would astonish them, but that he would do something that would quiet their apprehensions, and the consequence was this bill. Now, a bolder attempt, merely to gain patronage, without the smallest prospect of advantage to the public, never was exhibited in this world. One great object of the noble lord appeared to be to discredit the late administration, and to praise himself. Commissioners had already been appointed for the professed object of this bills and the bill did, in fact, nothing more
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Lord Henry Petty
thought it remarkable, that after the right hon. gent had stated the ignorance of the house on this subject, he had gone into a full discussion on the point, and availed himself of that ignorance in order to favour his own views. He had no objection to the delay, but he would prove that the object was not to procure patronage from the treasury, although tins was a strange objection from the right hon. gent. He would prove that a more useful measure, both generally and in detail, had never been submitted to the house on this subject. As to the statement respecting his conduct in proposing the measure, he did not think it worth his while to give any detailed answer. He could only assure the house that he had not been out of breath, and that he had given no such notice of something to astonish the house, as the right hon. gent. had stated, and for the truth of this he appealed to the recollection of the house. As to the apointment of the commissioners, the right hon. gent. had Stated that an additional nine had been permanently appointed, whereas the appointment was only temporary, and particularly applicable to the circumstances of the case, as the accounts were, from neglect, in such a situation, that nothing but such a measure as this could bring them into the condition in which they ought to be. He concluded by moving that the house should the next day go into the committee.
Mr. Rose
asked When the noble lord in-
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Lord H. Petty
said, he booed in a very few days he should be able to bring forward the bill to which the right hon. gent. alluded.
Mr. Rose
gave notice, that he would tomorrow move for certain accounts, which would he necessary to throw a light on this subject.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.] Mr. Paull
moved that the order of the house of the 22d of April last, relative to Indian papers, should be obeyed forthwith. This was a greed to. He then moved that the correspondence of the governor-general and his secretary, with major Ouseley, aid-de-camp to the nabob vizier, during the year 1802, should be laid before the house.
Sir A. Wellesley
had no objection, on the part of the marquis Wellesley, but, as it involved the character of Mr. Treeves, a gentleman who was absent, he submitted whether it would not be better to give a notice at present, and leave the board of controul to consider whether the correspondence ought to be produced.
Mr. Paull
said that he did not move for these papers with any view to the character of the gentleman alluded to; but they were very important with respect to the Oude charge, as they Would prove that major Ouseley had been threatened with disgraceful expulsion, except he made some communication which had been required of him.
Mr. Wellesley Pole
trusted that the house would observe, that there was no objection to the production of this correspondence, on the part of the friends of marquis Wellesley. They only meant to enter their protest against any attack on the character of an individual who had no opportunity of defending himself.
Mr. Creevey
thought the hon. gent. should have given notice of such a motion as the present.
Mr. Paull
said, that after the charge had been so long on the table, he did lot think he was or ought to be confined strictly to the rules respecting notices. It was very different from the first opening of a business of this kind. The papers were highly essential to the elucidation of the charge, and he thought he had a right to move for
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[CHELSEA HOSPITAL BILL.] Mr. Secretary Windham
moved the third reading of the Chelsea Hospital bill.
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that his objections to this measure had received strength from a more mature consideration of them. He still maintained that parliament ought not to bind itself to pay any money without an estimate, and he also thought that the plan was derogatory to the crown, as the object might have been attained by its power without this application to parliament. He then objected to the plan of limited service, which, in his opinion, would put it out of the power of parliament to disband any part of the army without continuing their pay, and might spread a number of veterans over the country, which, like those of Sylla, Marius, and Octavius Cæsar, might be dangerous to the liberties of the country.—Mr. Windham was rising, when
General Tarleton
said, that such an important measure ought not to be discussed in so thin a house, and moved the standing order, that the house be counted. Strangers were then ordered to withdraw; but there being 40 members present, the discussion was continued.
Mr. Secretary Windham
entered into a general history of the debates that had taken place on the subject of his military system, and observed that the arguments which were at one time advanced by the hon. gent. opposite, were so completely at variance with those adopted by the same hon. gent. at another, that the one set of arguments might very fairly serve fear an answer to the other. However he should endeavour to satisfy the hon. gent. as to each distinct point of objection, without any consideration of it in a relative view with respect to the objections which were at other times started. The argument as to what was called the invasion of the right of parliament seemed now to be principally dwelt upon. But he would beg gentlemen to consider for a moment, first, what was the nature of the confidence generally placed in the crown; then, what sort of confidence that was which was acted on with respect to the army in particular at other times. By, comparison, these gentlemen Would see how far the principle of the present bill was at variance with, or agreeable to, those general principles which have been uniformly acted on by parliament. In all
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Mr. Huskisson
explained his objection to be, that after this bill, men would be receiving the pay of soldiers, without being really such.
Sir J. Pulteney
thought it strange that a measure of so much importance should be debated and pressed forward in so thin an attendance.
Lord Castlereagh
said, he had a number of objections to offer, which he wished to submit at considerable length, but he thought it improper to be under time necessity of doing so, when there were not members present sufficient to constitute a house.
Mr. Windham
replied, that he came down to the house in full confidence that no opposition would be made in this last stage of a bill, which had been so fully discussed before, and he was convinced it was under the same impression so many gentlemen left the house.
General Tarleton
then moved, that the house should be counted; upon which the gallery was cleared, and there being no more than 35 members present, the house accordingly adjourned.
HOUSE.OF LORDS.
Thursday, June 12.
[MINUTES.]
Their lordships proceeded in the usual form to Westminster-hall, previous to which lord Hood of Catherington was introduced, and took the oaths and his seat.—They returned about four, when the house came to a resolution, "That this house, having taken into consideration the articles of impeachment against Henry lord viscount Melville, do acquit the said Henry lord viscount Melville thereof, and he is hereby acquitted of all the high crimes and misdemeanours on the articles of charge exhibited against him by the commons, and of all matters and things therein contained, and this house do hereby dismiss the said impeachment."—An order, usual on such occasions, was made relative to the publication of the trial, and after transacting some private business the house adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, June 12.
[MINUTES.]Mr. Alderman Combs
614
brought in a bill for altering and amending the London Docks act, so far as related to compensation, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time.—Petitions were brought up from the inhabitants of Stoke Newington, the inhabitants of Stratford-le-Bow, and the inhabitants of Christ Church, against the East London Water Works bill, which were severally ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Vansittart brought up the Additional Assessed Tax Duty bill, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.—The Irish Linen Drawback bill went through a committee, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
[ACCOUNTS RELATING TO FOREIGN CORPS.] Mr. Rose
moved for the production of some unaudited accounts in the department of the secretary at war, namely, those of a gentleman named Lukin, a relation of Mr. Windham, and on whom that right hon. gent. while secretary at war, had conferred an employment in the department relating to foreign troops; and also for the unaudited accounts of Mr. Wickham, while attendant on the armies of our allies on the Continent, during the last war. The right hon. gent. in moving for these papers, made some allusions to the oddity of the circumstance, that Mr. Lukin, who was the relation of the right hon. gent. at the head of the war department, should have his accounts audited and settled by the secretary at war, instead of being referred to the auditors of public accounts: and with respect to Mr. Wickham, he observed, that it was pretty extraordinary, that that right hon. gent. who acted as commissary on the Continent during the last war, and whose accounts, to a very large amount, were yet unsettled, should be one of the loudest in cheering the proposition of the noble lord opposite to him, for establishing his new commission of audit, on the day he brought it forward; and as so much pains had been taken by his majesty's present ministers to cast an odium on the conduct of their predecessors, and to charge them with criminal neglect for suffering such an accumulation Of unaudited accounts to grow under their authority, he thought it right the house should see that all this accumulation had not been wholly imputable to those ministers who were now out of office, but that right hon. gentlemen who were so strenuous in impeaching the neglect of others, had themselves incurred no inconsiderable share of the blame, if any was fairly imputable,
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Lord H. Petty
said, that as he did not mean to object to the production of these papers, he would appeal to the candour of the right hon. gent. as the names of two gentlemen were mentioned in these papers, whether it would not be fair that he should assign some reason for moving for them, or at least say, whether he meant to inculpate either of them for any part of their conduct in the transactions to which these papers related?
Mr. Rose
said, the noble lord had lately stated to the house his intention to bring forward a new commission, in which he had mentioned the name of Mr. Trotter in a very particular manner. Why, therefore, should the noble lord thus call on him to know if he had any intention of inculpating either of the gentlemen mentioned in those papers? but he had no hesitation in saying, he did not mean to inculpate either of them. With respect to Mr. Lukin, there had been a very large sum of money issued to him by the then secretary at war, who was his relation, and he understood that gentleman had conceived a doubt, to whom he should account for that money, and had said he was accountable for it only to the secretary at war. He moved for the papers on public grounds, because he thought they would be found to contain information necessary for the house, and to which, as a member, he had a right. He could assure the noble lord, that if ever he should contemplate a charge against any man, or any member of administration, while he had the honour of a seat in that house, he should bring it forward candidly, manfully, and directly, not insidiously, or by a side-wind.
Mr. Secretary Windham
observed, that not withstanding the right hon. gents'. specious
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Mr. Rose
"That there be
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Mr. Wickham
(who, on account of some infirmity in his leg, was permitted to speak sitting) felt it necessary, after the pointed allusion made to himself, to explain his conduct. The official situation in which he was placed during the continental war, was not, as stated by the rt. hon. gent. that of a commissary. He was attached to the army of the archduke as his majesty's plenipotentiary, and was charged with negotiations for subsidizing troops. For the pay of those troops, he was officially acquainted, that a large sum of money was deposited in the Bank of Hamburgh, upon which drafts were to be given monthly for the pay of the troops. In the treaties which he had formed for those subsidiary forces, every thing relating to pay, from the general down to the private, and every thing respecting forage and other contingencies, were minutely stipulated; and he had repeatedly written home to his government, urging the necessity of sending out able commissaries, to be constantly attached to these foreign regiments, and to see that their musters were correct, with powers to draw upon the Hamburgh bank. In answer to which, his instructions were, that the responsibility. of drawing for money would not be vested in any commissary; but that he (Mr. W.) must take the superintendance of such issues; and after receiving the necessary certificates, signed by the commissaries, he must then, under his own hand, empower the commissaries to draw upon the bank at Hnmburgh. This was a duty not of his seeking, but imposed upon him without even asking his assent it formed a very laborious increase to the arduous duties with which he had been already charged. He undertook it however, cheerfully, as he would have done one more arduous, for the public service. But he felt himself placed in a predicament in which no man of honour or feeling in his situation would wish to stand: not as officially accredited, the plenipotentiary of his majesty, in a diplomatic department, but as a check or controul upon the acting commissaries, and with a share of care and
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Mr Rose
expressed his assurance, that no man could be more accurate than the right hon. gent. who had rendered very considerable services to his country.
Mr. Secretary Fox,
after some animadversions on the candour, manliness, and purity of the right hon. gent. opposite to him, (Mr. Rose) begged to observe, that the expenditures about which he seemed now so solicitous, and the delay of accounting for which had excited so much of his disapprobation, must have been some years officially known to the right hon. gent. If there was any thing improper or illegal in the manner of those expenditures being accounted for, why, he would ask, had not the right hon. gent. in his great anxiety for rectitude, long since moved for their production?—The papers were then ordered.
[CHELSEA HOSPITAL BILL.]
On the motion for the third reading of the bill,
Lord Castlereagh
said, he felt such strong objections to the measure, that he hoped the house would indulge him by allowing him to state his opinion in this late stage, as shortly as possible. The noble lord then inveighed against the bill, as a measure originally objectionable from the number of utterly inadmissable clauses with which it as charged; but, as now reduced to a skeleton by the expunging of those clauses, it contained no one feature of any fundamental principle, for improving the situation of the soldier, which was not before in the power of his majesty. So far, then, it was a mere
caput mortuum;
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Mr. Hawthorne,
who said that such observations were totally irrelevant to the bill before the house.
Lord Castlereagh
resumed, however, his observations, and was again called to order by,
Sir W. Young,
who observed, that if the noble lord was to be indulged in this field of allusions to former measures and debates, and in the repetition of arguments urged a hundred times before, and served up in almost every discussion that had occurred within the last two monts, a precedent would be created which would really render it imposible to go on with the public business. The noble lord might as properly expect to be allowed to read, as part of his speech, a volume or two of the Parliamentary History of the country. He put it to the noble lord's discretion, whether some consideration was not due to the time and patience of the house? or whether the attendance of members was to be protracted in this manner, night after night, to unseasonable hours, in the unnecessary, and he might almost say, captious repetition of such discussions? If the hon. baronet was unsuccessful in the appeal to the discretion of the noble lord, he would appeal to the authority of the Chair.—(Hear! hear! hear! from the ministerial side of the house.)
Lord Castlereagh
rose again, and concluded by observing, that if he was disposed to trespass upon the attention of the house, by uttering all he felt, and exposing all the inconsistencies and absurdities that challenged observation in the conduct of his majesty's ministers, the hon. baronet might indeed have cause to complain of the length of his speech, which might last for some days; he would, however, relieve the
621
Mr. Secretary Windham
observed, that the noble lord had made a speech which it was extremely difficult to answer, not on account of the logical precision and clearness of the noble lord's positions, or the convincing force of his arguments, for of those properties in the noble lord's eloquence he really had no perception; but it was very possible to make a speech composed of heterogeneous materials, like that of the noble lord, and so inconsistent and contradictory in itself, as to be extremely difficult to be answered in a regular way. The noble lord's speech on this occasion, and which would do just as well for any other, exhibited a melange of all those topics of assertions and arguments, which had been used by himself and his friends so repeatedly of late, and so repeatedly and completely refuted, that he did not mean to follow the noble lord round the sort of grand tour he had made, feeling, as he did, some consideration for the patience of the house. The noble lord had talked much of the military plans he had introduced, and had talked of this bill having been preceded by four mutiny bills; and he had adverted to this assertion nearly as often as four times four, like the story of the four pilgrims, or, as if there were some peculiar virtue or conjuration in four, like the mystic number of Pythagoras. But he begged to remind the noble lord, that there were but two mutiny bills for that period, brought forward upon grounds with which the house seemed very well pleased; and he begged to ask the noble lord what injury had accrued to the country, or inconvenience to the public service, from the manner of passing those bills? The present bill was said, at one time, to do the most alarming mischief, and the next moment it was a mere skeleton, a caput mortuum, and did nothing, or worse than nothing: at one time it was totally inefficient, and again it was most mischievously efficient. It was at first utterly inadmissible, on account of certain obnoxious clauses, and now it seems it was rendered much worse by the expunging of those clauses,
622
Mr. Perceval
after some preliminary observations, said, that whether this all wise, this all perfect administration ought to form
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una litura
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626
magno conatu nihil;
superbum et magnificentissimum nihil
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Mr. Secretary Fox
on the part of his majesty's ministers, positively disclaimed any such sentiment, as expressed by any of them, in or out of that house, that they combined all the talents, all the virtue, and all the influence of the country. It certainly was their wish to combine as much of those properties as circumstances could admit, and it was not their fault, that some right hon. gentlemen, friends of the late admi-
639
that
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Mr. Canning
said, that though he had no right to complain that the right hon. secretary had followed his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Perceval) into the more general topics of his speech; yet of his total neglect and omission of those parts which more immediately affected the bill before the house, he thought he and the house had a right to complain; for, surely, it was high time that some one at least of his maiesty's ministers should now at length upon this last opportunity, afford some light as to their own sense and meaning in the measure under discussion; and if they could not (which they probably could not) contend that it was framed to answer any useful purpose, should at least condescend to explain what purpose they. themselves bad in view. All his however the right hon. secretary had thought himself at liberty to pass over, and to leave the question altogether in the same
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pro forma
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The Attorney General
spoke in support of the bill, and said it was one that ought to be considered, not as distinct from, but
pari passu
Mr. Rose
considered this the only explanation given as yet. He complained of the enormous and unnecessary expence in which this measure would involve the country, and concluded by expressing his conviction that a noble lord, whom he had hitherto been taught to consider as the head of his majesty's councils (lord Grenville) had no hand whatever in concerting these
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Lord Temple
rose with much warmth, and expressed his utter indifference as to what opinion the right honourable gentleman or his friends might form of the talents of himself, or those with whom he had the honour to act; but he could now assure that right hon. gent. that he spoke the language and sentiments of his noble relation (lord Grenville), when he stated that he thanked no man for compliments paid to him at the expence of his colleagues.—After a few words from Dr. Laurence, in support of the bill, the house divided, Ayes 65; Noes 30; Majority for the bill 35. The bill was then read a third time, passed, and ordered to the Lords. Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, June 13.
[MINUTES.]
In the appeal Seymour v. the earl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour, Mr. Richards was heard for the respondents, after which the further consideration of it was postponed till the next day.—The royal assent was given by commission to the Property Duty bill, the Irish Sugar bill, the Irish Stamp Duties bill, the Irish Additional Force Repeal bill, and several private bills. The commissioners were the lord Chancellor, lord Walsingham, and lord Auckland.—Lord H.Petty, and several other members of the house of commons, brought up a message, stating that the house of commons requested a conference with their lordships, on a subject in which the reputation of the country, and the interests of humanity, justice, and sound policy, were deeply concerned. The house agreed to a conference presently in the painted chamber, of which the messengers from the commons being called in, were informed. A committee was appointed to manage the conference.—The house being informed that the commons waited the conference in
648
[MUTINY BILL.]
The order being read, for going into a committee on the above bill, the house resolved itself into the same accordingly, lord Walsingham in the chair.—After a short previous conversation, of an explanatory nature, between the earls of Westmoreland and Spencer, as to the regular mode of discussing the provision or enactment of the bill, which it appeared was in one of the schedules,
The Earl of Westmoreland
rose, and in a speech of considerable length, expressed his objections to the clause alluded to. He contended that it was an invasion of the royal prerogative, inasmuch as it prescribed the exact term for which men should be enlisted to serve in the army, and precluded his majesty from enlisting men upon any other condition. This was an abridgement of the power and an infringement of the prerogative of the crown, by taking from the king that power over the army which had hitherto been constitutionally vested in the crown. A measure too which went to change the whole constitution of the army, was introduced in the shape of a clause in the Mutiny bill, thus leaving that house no choice but between the dangerous nature of the experiment attempted to be tried, and the inconveniencies which would result from the disorganization of the army in consequence of not passing the Mutiny bill. Thus also would his majesty be called upon to sacrifice a material portion of his power and his prerogative, because it would be said that the Mutiny bill must be passed or else the army could not be kept together. Those who on a former occasion advised his majesty not to give his assent to a bill which went to abridge the king's prerogative, but the refusal to sanction which only left things as they were, could not now say that no other consequence would result than leaving things as they were, they might say, your ministers have made a bill different to that which your majesty ordered to be brought in, but a Mutiny bill must be sanctioned or the army cannot exist.
Earl Spencer
spoke to order. The noble
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The Earl of Westmoreland
proceeded. The present measure was, he said, of the same character with those before proposed by an administration, in which it was said so much of the talent and ability of the country was concentrated. To judge of their measures
ex pede Herculem,
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Earl Spencer
said, he wished to state shortly to their lordships the reasons which induced him to support the proposed plan of limited service. He thought, in reasoning upon this subject, that it was impossible to draw any other conclusion, than that men would be much more readily induced to enlist into the army for 7 or for 10 years, with the prospect of being enabled to return to their families at the expiration of that period, crowned with laurels, and enjoying those benefits which this measure held out to them, than to enlist for life, and of course without
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Lord Boringdom
argued against the clause, on the ground of its being unnecessary, and not called for by the state of the army. At any rate, he thought that the measure ought rather to have originated as a boon from his majesty, in which case it might have been first tried upon a small scale, than to be at once extended to the whole constitution of the army. The measure also appeared to him defective, inasmuch as there was no provision made for those who, by being disbanded at the conclusion of a war, were precluded from serving the whole of their term of service; and he thought it was a little too much to say that they were to pass this measure, and leave it to ministers to bring other measures forward afterwards to correct its defects.
The Earl of Carnarvon
deprecated the doctrine which had been attempted to be set up, of the power of the sword vesting in the crown without the controul of parliament. The command of the army undoubtedly vested in the crown, but the limitation of the military force of the kingdom unquestionably remained with parliament. He considered the present measure as tending materially to improve the condition of the army, and not liable to any of those objections which had been raised against it.
The Duke of Montrose
opposed the clause,
653
The Duke of Gloucester
warmly supported the measure. Many officers of eminence and reputation with whom he had conversed, in those counties in which he had travelled, had given their opinions decidedly in favour of limited service, which they considered as productive of the most beneficial consequences to an army. He was also decidedly of the same opinion, and he considered such a mode of enlistment as peculiarly congenial to this country, where freedom was the birthright of its inhabitants, where the love of freedom animated them in all their contests and inspirited all their exertions. Nothing was more clearly convincing to his mind than that enlistment for a fixed term of years, as proposed in the present measure, would operate as a strong inducement to many who would not otherwise venture to enlist; and when they returned to their homes and related the battles in which they had been engaged, the glories which had been achieved, the laurels they had won, and the benefits they had received, it would be a still stronger inducement for their younger relatives to enter into a service where they had the same prospects of honour and reward, and returning in the same manner to their families. If only ten men in a regiment returned in this way to their families, the benefit to the army produced by this means would be incalculable.
Earl Grosvenor
said, that the plans hitherto tried had failed effectually to recruit the army. It was therefore necessary to resort to some new means of effecting that desirable object, and upon this principle he supported the present measure, which seemed to promise the accomplishment of a purpose so much wished for.
Earl Camden
opposed the measure, and warmly supported the amendment.
The Earl of Limerick
contended, that our colonial service was peculiarly incompatible with limited service, since before the soldier became seasoned to the climate, he might become entitled to his discharge; and thus our colonies might be perpetually
654
Lord king
observed, that it was not wished to introduce a higher class of men into the army, but only the more considerate and reflecting of that class, who now entered it as soldiers. This would add both to the numbers and discipline of the army.
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
supported the bill in its present shape, which, in fact, he thought no more militated against the royal prerogative, than any of the Mutiny bills their lordships were in the habit of passing yearly.
Lord Hardwicke
opposed it, and noticed the slight effects produced by limited service during the American war, as a proof that little was to be expected from this new system.
Lord Rosslyn
thought, that the only way of rendering unnecessary the present high bounties, and of removing the odium under which the military life so generally laboured, was by ameliorating the condition of the soldier, and this the present clause was eminently calculated to promote. High bounties were one great cause of the desertions which had so much prevailed of late, and if the cause were removed, which could only be done by some measure similar to the present, the effect would cease of course. At present, nothing but the event of his being disabled, could give the soldier the hope of retirement; and it was not to be expected, that considerate men, or indeed any but the thoughtless, or those driven by necessity, would prefer being tied up for life, to limited service. As to canvassing between the officer and soldier, he was confident, that British officers would never degrade themselves by permitting any relaxation of discipline, to induce their men to continue in the service. They were convinced, that the attachment of the soldier could only be gained by fair and liberal conduct, and by the strict and impartial exercise of discipline.
Lord Hawkesbury
declared, that notwith-
655
Lord Holland
observed, that after the able and elegant speech which had been made in favour of the measure by the illustrious person whom he had in his eye (the duke of Gloucester), a speech which must have made an indelible impression on the minds of all who heard it, he was surprised that the noble lords on the other side should have persisted in their objections. He then adverted to the necessity of increasing our army, in opposition to a noble lord who had said that our disposable force was already great enough. In order to attain this ob-
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The Earl of Moira,
in allusion to what had fallen from a noble earl (Westmoreland) early in the debate, begged to express his thanks to the noble earl for the speech he had been so good as to make for him, as expressive of the terrors he was supposed to feel for the ruin of the artillery corps from this measure. He really did not recollect that he had ever entertained any such sentiments, and he trusted noble lords would do him the justice to believe the language was not his. He really had no such terrors; and so far was he from having cause to feel such apprehensions, that he was convinced nothing would be a greater punishment to an artillery-man, than to dismiss him from the service, and deprive him of the many advantageous prospects of preferment in his view. The boys now inlisted for the artillery service, were turned over to the battalions as they attained proper size, and were of course enlisted for life. The term of 12 years limitation could only operate on those who enlisted hereafter, and could have no effect for 12 years to come; and with respect to the general term of limited enlistment, he would read a letter to their lordships from experienced and practical, not from speculative authority, from a general officer now in our service, but formerly, and for 20 years, in the service of the nation in Europe most analogous to our own, namely, that of Holland. This letter stated, that during 20 years of that officer's service, there were 72 battalions of the Dutch army, serving both at home and in their distant colonies, in which it was the uniform practice to enlist the men for limited periods of 3, 6, and 9 years, without any other stipulations than that their discharges should only be demanded in the month of October, or at the end of a campaign, consequently during a war; and that no inconvenience whatever had arisen from the usage. He then adverted to the wonderful effects which the seats on the opposite side seemed to have had on some of the noble lords, when they produced sentiments and feelings so unusual. As to the point of the prerogative, that had been so clearly treated by the illustrious person near him (the duke of Gloucester), that it was scarcely necessary to say thing further
658
Lord Mulgrave
expressed his astonishment at the opinion expressed by the noble lord, who was himself a soldier, and of justly high character, as to what might be the consequence to, or the disposition excited in the minds of military men, by being called to give their evidence at their lordships' bar; and he totally denied the justice of the inference. With respect to the bill, he was a friend to its principle, but feared it would be inefficacious, and ought only to be tried partially as an, experiment.
Lord Grenville
rose with the sincerest satisfaction to recommend most earnestly to their lordships the adoption of a measure of which, for many years past, he had entertained the most perfect conviction, that it was the only measure likely to become permanently efficacious in keeping up the necessary force of the country, under the unfortunate necessity that of late years had been imposed upon the countries of Europe, of keeping up large armies; and as most
659
660
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, June 13.
[MINUTES.] Sir T. Metcalfe
brought up a bill for incorporating the Globe In-
661
[WEST INDIA ACCOUNTS BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
moved the order of the day for the house to go into a committee on the West India Accounts bill, which being read, his lordship said, that before he moved that the Speaker do leave the chair, he wished to make a few observations respecting the objects of the bill, by way of obviating the objections thrown out against it on a former night by the right hon. gent. opposite
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663
Mr. Rose
said, the noble lord could not be more desirous to have the abuses in the West Indies inquired into and redressed, than he was. The circumstance of Mr. Bearcroft, the gentleman alluded to, having returned home, and been useful to the auditors, he thought afforded no competent reason for making the public incur the enormous expence of aditional appointments, even before the exertions of the former commissioners had been fully tried. He was inclined to ascribe much of the motive for introducing such a bill (which appeared to him entirely unnecessary) to a violent desire for patronage in his majesty's present ministers. There was no instance in the annals of parliament of the commissioners of the treasury having the power to appoint a secretary with powers so extensive under a warrant of the Great Seal. He objected to this precedent of granting to these commissioners of the treasury a greater power than had ever been conferred by any former act of parliament. He considered that considerable danger might arise from collusion between the parties by the appointment of intermediate commissioners. In short, the bill contained nothing which the former one did not already embrace sufficiently for the purposs intended, except the clauses which related to the punishing of perjury. He had formerly made an objection to the preamble of this bill, and he still should do so, as it amounted to a kind of a slur upon the former ministry and commissioners, who, in his opinion, deserved well of their country for the exertions they had used, and the numerous services which they had rendered. The additional appointments would amount to nothing but sinecures. He had conversed with people who had been in the West Indies in various capacities, and he was now perfectly convinced that no auditors but those who acted on the very spot could be of any use in a business of such a nature; and he should therefore think it his duty to take the sense of the house on it.
Mr. Secretary Fox
said, that he had himself experienced the difficulty of finding proper candidates to. go to the West Indies. If Mr. Bearcroft had been found so usefu here, it would be strange, if commissioners
664
Mr. Perceval
said, he thought it would be infinitely more difficult to procure persons to go to the West Indies by rotation than to send out persons immediately after the first engagement for such a purpose. After having enjoyed a salary and sinecures for no less that two years here, it would no doubt be difficult to persuade men to leave their friends and relations in order to go to a dangerous climate, where they might succeed to a much more laborious and disagreeable occupation. He conceived it would be a more difficult task to engage gentleman to go abroad after the expiration of two years, than to persuade a man to go abroad immediately. Nothing was a greater proof of the patronage than the confession of the right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox), who acknowledged that he offered situations in a department with which he had no official connection.—The house then resolved itself into a Committee on the Bill.—On the clause being read for the appointment of five commissioners for auditing accounts, two to act in the West Indies, and three at home,
Mr. Rose
objected to it as an unnecessary and unprecedented creation of new and sinecure places, merely for the purposes of patronage. He stated, that so far was this from being sanctioned by the example of the Board of Treasury, under which he had the honour to act, that in 19 years that Board suppressed upwards of 100 sinecure places, of from 2000l. to 800l. a year. Two sinecure places of 8000l. a year, and which at this time would have amounted to 40,000l. were vacant, and in the gift of his right hon. friend deceased, (Mr. Pitt); but instead of nominating to them, and thus extending his patronage, that great minister suppressed them, as he did all the others, when vacancies occurred. There were at one time forty of them vacant, and he suppressed them all; a fact which he was ready to prove, if any gentleman thought proper to dispute it; for there was nothing he had more at heart, than that the conduct of that Board,
665
Mr. Secretary Fox
expressed his surprise that gentlemen should put this bill on such a footing, as to suppose that three commissioners here, in constant correspondence with the commissioners abroad, could be of no use to the auditors of public accounts. As to their refusing to go abroad in rotation, that was no more to be expected than in other branches of service, where gentlemen accepted of employments subject to all the contingencies that belonged to them, and indeed there was the less chance of such a refusal, as, after residing two years in the West Indies, they would also in the same rotation come back again. Amongst the many virtues of his noble friend (lord Grenville) now at the head of the treasury, industry and attention were far from being excluded; and he would pledge his life and reputation, that if the situations of these commissioners should turn out to be mere sinecures, instead of being laborious and operative, the board of treasury would be greatly mistaken in what it was about.
Mr. Rose
then moved an amendment, "that instead of five, there should be only three commissioners."
Lord Castlereagh
argued against the clause at considerable length. The principal points he dwelt upon were, that it was an alarming thing for the house to be now called upon to create an additional class of auditors, who, if they were to be operative, would render the final auditors, to whom the country looked for responsibility, a mere sinecure. Upon the whole, he could see only three effects that could arise from it. Either this new creation would embarrass the existing auditors, or they would turn them into sinecures, or be sinecures themselves, in any of which cases he must consider the measure to be mischievous.
Mr. Fox
adverted to the observation made, of its being a proof of the patronage, that he had offered these places, though belonging to a department he was uncon-
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667
Mr. Perceval
said, that he and those with whom he acted, acknowledged the propriety of the object intended, but differed as to the mode of doing it. The plan was now to create, 19 auditors, instead of 11, which was the number thought sufficient by the late minister; and in the present pressure of the country, under such a load of taxation, they objected to such an expence, merely for the purpose of patronage. In respect to the attack made upon his noble friend (lord Castlereagh) by the right hon. secreting, he had to observe, that before the proceedings relating to the union with Ireland, which the right hon. secretary condemned so much at the commencement of the session, were arraigned, he would have done well to recollect, that my lord Grenville, with whom he now acted, was then secretary of state, and very active in promoting that very salutary measure. (A cry of hear! hear!) He said he meant not to make any charge against the noble lord on that account, but he doubted if the right hon. secretary (mr. Fox) was dealing fairly by his colleagues and associates, by stating that as improper conduct, which would involve them in the disgrace.
Lord H. Petty
was anxious to rescue the character of his noble friend (lord Grenville) from the imputation of having been party to the disgraceful jobs, and other artifices, employed for the purpose of effecting the union with Ireland. That noble lord, as secretary of state for foreign affairs in England, could not, under the widest ideas of responsibility that could be conceived, be made at all accountable for the corruption practised in Ireland, at the time that Ireland was in independence, and therefore could not be implicated in the conduct of those alluded to by his right hon. friend (Mr. Fox). His lordship then entered into a general defence of the measure before the house, observing, that the new commissioners would have to audit West India accounts to the amount of several millions, which remained unsettled for the last eight years, and that the additional number was required on account of the additional inquiries which still remained
668
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Lord Temple
moved the order of the day for the second reading of the American Intercourse bill.
Mr. perceval
did not think it right that this measure should be now brought forward, the house being already exhausted by a long debate; he, therefore, hoped, that it would be postponed to a future day.
Lord Temple
felt the force of what the learned gent. had said; but he did not think it too much to ask, though gentlemen seemed determined to give every opposition to the measures of his majesty's ministers, that the bill should be now read a second time, and that the debate should take place on the Speaker's leaving the chair.
Mr. Perceval
could not agree with the noble lord: he thought the bill of such importance that it should have the fullest discussion; and he thought it probable that he would have to divide the house, not only on the second reading, but also on the question of the Speaker's leaving the chair.
The Speaker
reminded the house, that there was a petition on the table against the bill, and that there was an order to hear counsel.
Lord Temple
said he gave way, not to the suggestion of the learned gent. (Mr. Perceval), but to the convenience of the house.
Mr. Rose
observed, that his hon. friend had merely said, that it would not suit the convenience of the house, that a measure of such importance should come on at midnight.
Lord De Blaquiere
did not think the noble lord should have spoken with so much warmth, as to tell his learned friend, that he did not give way to his suggestion. The house had a right to debate on every stage of the bill, and he demanded the opportunity.
Mr. Perceval
thanked his noble friend, but declared that he did not think the noble lord had spoken so warmly as was supposed.
Lord Temple
said, that any warmth he might have manifested, was entirely owing to the rough manner in which the learned gent. had desired him to postpone the second reading.
Mr. Fox
conceived the bill to be highly useful, but could not allow it to be by any means of the importance described. It was by no means a measure of a permanent na-
669
Mr. Rose
explained that, on that occasion, it was only suspended during the then war. Here it was not for the present war, but a general suspension during every war in which we might be engaged.
Sir C. Price
also disapproved of the bill.
Mr. Fox
declared his readiness to confine the bill to the present war; and if his doing so could remove the objections of other gentlemen, who, from misconceiving the effects of the measure, opposed it, he would even consent to limit its duration for a time to be specified, or during the war.—The bill was then ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Saturday, June 14.
[SEYMOUR APPEAL CAUSE.]
In the appeal cause, Seymour, an infant, v. earl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour, the Solicitor General was heard in reply.
Lord Eldon
stated the circumstances of the case, and the reasons upon which his own decree was founded, and immediately left the house.
The Lord Chancellor
contended, that the house ought to judge of the case entirely according to the evidence before them; and after delivering his own opinion at considerable length, concluded by moving four resolutions. 1. That so much of the decree made by the court of chancery in this cause, as goes to authorise the appointment of the earl of Euston and lord Henry Seymour, as guardians to the appellant, be reversed. 2. That so much of the said decree as dismisses the petition of the appellant, praying the appointment of Maria Fitzherbert, as her guardian, be affirmed. 3. That so much of the said decree as authorises the appointment of the marquis of Hertford, as guardian, be reversed. 4. That inasmuch as the marquis of Hertford, (nearest in blood to the appellant), and the marchioness of Hertford, appear willing to become guardians: it is ordered, under the particular circumstances of the case, that the said marquis and marchioness of Hertford be appointed guardians to the appellant.
Lord Ellenborough
observed, he had
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The Marquis of Hertford
feeling himself particularly alluded to more than once in the course of the discussion, thought it incumbent on him to trouble their lordships with a few words. He first adverted to the letter he had received from the agents of the respondents, to which he certainly had not thought proper to answer. With respect to the consideration of guardianship, in his mind, it should be regulated by a principle, that the guardian should not enter into any explanation or promise as to his intentions, lest he should place himself in an anxious and arduous dilemma, either to do that which might, under the circumstances, be injurious to his charge, on the one hand, or forfeit his word of honour, on the other. He should therefore enter into no explanations of the kind. With respect to the present situation of miss Seymour, he had deemed it incumbent on him to make particular inquiries, when apprehension of her removal was entertained; by what he could learn, such a step was likely to be attended with danger. He meant no reflection whatever on his noble relatives, but their lordships knew that men might see things in different lights. He had seen his niece at his own house, and at other places, and had every reason to he pleased with her manners and behaviour, the formation of which seemed to be attended to with par-
671
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, June 16.
[MINUTES.] Lord Grenville
gave notice that he should bring forward his propositions relative to the Judicature of Scotland on Wednesday next, for which day the lords were ordered to be summoned.—Lord Auckland observed, that as a measure was about to be brought before Parliament for increasing certain allowances to seamen, it was necessary that their lordships should be in possession of information upon the subject when it came under discussion in that house. He therefore moved for several accounts relative to the revenue of Greenwich hospital, and the chest at Greenwich, which were ordered.—The Irish Malt Duty bill and the Chelsea Hospital bill were read a 2nd time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, June 16.
[MINUTES.] Sir J. Sinclair
brought up the report of the committee on the Forfeited Estates in Scotland.—The Irish Election bill was brought up, and read a first time.—
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673
[NABOB OF ARCOT'S DEBTS.] Mr. Hobhouse
rose to postpone the second reading of the Nabob of Arcot's Debts bill. Before he fixed a day for that purpose, he wished to say a few words to the house. The bill had now been 3 months before them, and there certainly had been full time for the consideration of it. Besides, it ought rather to be considered as of the nature of a private bill, and he was therefore anxious that it should pass in the therefore anxious that it should pass in the present session. He certainly felt some reluctance in postponing the second reading; but he was unwilling to press it in the absence of several gentlemen who wished to deliver their opinions upon it.
Mr. Francis
contended that the bill was of a public nature, and one, indeed, of great general interest. He wished it to be put off till an early period in the next session, that, in the mean time, the subject might receive full consideration.
Mr. Hobhouse
did not mean to say, that the bill did not affect the interests of the public; but as the interests of individuals were immediately concerned, he had brought it forward as a private bill.
The Speaker
stated that, according to the forms of the house, it was certainly a private bill.
Mr. Ryder
observed, that any unnecessary delay in passing of the bill would subject a number of private individuals to great distress.—The bill was ordered to be read a 2nd time on Thursday.
[IMPEACHMENT OF LORD MELVILLE.] Mr. Whitbread
did not conceive that the motion which he should now make could meet with any opposition, and therefore he should content himself with moving, that a committee should be appointed
674
Sir H. Mildmay
wished the hon. gent. to give some explanation to the house respecting the object of his present motion.
Mr. Whitbread
replied, that some kind of information might probably be obtained for the lords' journals by which the house might be regulated in their future proceedings on this subject.
Mr. Dent
did not think the answer to his hon. friend satisfactory. It was surely not too much to ask, what that future course to be pursued by the house was to be?
Mr. Whitbread
was anxious to make the hon. gent. as wise on this head as it was possible for him. He did not know what was on the Journals of the Lords, and therefore could not satisfy him in that respect. If humour was to be depended upon, certain questions had been submitted to the judges by their lordships, and these, with the answer of the judges, he thought desirable to have produced to that house. What course it might be expedient to follow, would depend on the report of the committee.
Mr. R. Dundas
wished to know, whether the whole of the proceedings of the lords were to be laid before the house.?
Mr. Whitbread
answered, that the committee were only to report what they should find in the Journals to the house.
Mr. Fuller
did not know what the Journals of the Lords contained, but certainly understood it to have been stated by a noble lord opposite (lord H. Petty) on a former occasion, that if lord Melville should be acquitted, his expences should be paid by the public. This was the more just, as he had been compelled to go from one court into another, where the expence incurred was infinitely greater.
Lord H. Petty
said, that when the subject alluded to by the hon. member was mentioned during the discussions before the trial, he had said, that whatever might be proper to be done in that respect, must be determined after the trial, and not before; but he had never given any promise, such as the hon. member conceived.
Mr. Whitbread
said, that lord Melville had no blame to impute to the managers on that account; he had been taken into the court in which he was tried, by his own particular friends, after the house had possi-
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Mr. R. Dundas
recollected perfectly, that the observation of the noble lord had been made on the occasion when the comparative expence of a trial in the house of lords and in Westminster hall was under discussion, and undoubtedly the removal of the trial from the bar of the house of lords to Westminster hall had greatly increased the expence, and was not imputable to the other house.—The committee was then appointed.
[GREENWICH HOSPITAL.] Lord Howick,
on consideration, felt that the motion, of which he had given notice for this day, for leave to bring in a Bill to make more effectual provision for the Pensioners of Greenwich Hospital, could not properly be submitted to the House, without a message from his majesty to recommend the measure. No time, however, would be lost, as in the mean time he should move for the production of such information, as would have been necessary to be produced to the House before the second reading of the bill. The noble lord concluded by moving, "That there be laid before the House a copy of the minute of the Commissioners and Governor of the Royal Hospital at Greenwich, of the 5th instant, relative to the mode of ameliorating the condition of the Out-Pensioners, and making provision for the inferior wounded and disabled Officers of his majesty's navy." On the question being put,
Mr. Canning
said, he entirely agreed in the object of the noble lord, and in the course which he proposed to pursue for the attainment of that object. He was happy to have at length a recognition on the part of one of his majesty's ministers, that any boon to the military ought to originate in a message from his majesty, because that was the proposition that had been so often lately, and so distinctly urged from his side of the house. The noble lord's conduct on a former occasion, had been even frequently adverted to in the course of these discussions, and he was happy to find that noble lord, for whose character and person he entertained so high a respect, not influenced by the example of his colleagues, but persevering in the constitutional practice.
Lord Howick
could not but be gratified by an expression of approbation of his conduct from any member of that house, but particularly from the rt. hon. gent. who had just sat down. But when this approbation
676
[WEST INDIA ACCOUNTS BILL.] Mr. Hawthorne
brought up the report of the West-India auditors bill.
Mr. Rose
said, that there was no provision here that any of the commissioners should go to the West Indies. He had therefore an amendment to propose, which was, that three of the commissioners at least should positively go to the West Indies.
The Speaker
informed him, that his amendment ought to be brought forward as one to the body of the bill. He was at present to put the question that the blank should be filled up with the word "two," purporting, that two commissioners should go to the West Indies. If this should be carried in the affirmative, the right hon. gent.'s amendment must be proposed in a subsequent stage.—Mr. Huskisson, Mr. Perceval, Mr. Long, and Mr. Sturges Bourne, contended that it was absurd to send only two commissioners to the West Indies, where the burthen of the business lay, and where there was the greatest risk of mortality, while three remained here doing almost nothing.
My Ryder
also contended that most of
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Mr. Rose
then repeated his former assertion, that the places about to be created by the bill would be mere sinecures, and serve only to extend ministerial patronage. This assertion the right hon. gent. expressed his resolution to repeat again and again, however it might be resisted by the noble lord, who ought, in his judgment, to have sought much more experience before he had ventured to originate a measure of this nature, which betrayed a total ignorance of official business.
Lord Howick
expressed his surprise at the quarter from which the house had just heard such vehement objections against sinecures. After much lofty declamation upon political purity; after such high tones of independence, and such ardent expressions of solicitude for the economic expenditure of the public money, the house would naturally look for some evidence of the right honourable gentleman's sincerity, and no doubt that sincerity would be evinced very soon, perhaps the next day, by the right honourable gentleman's resignation to his sovereign of the sinecure which he himself held. With regard to the right hon. gent.'s allusion to his noble friend (Petty's) want of experience, it was true, the noble lord observed, that his noble friend was not possessed of that experience which might be looked for from a veteran in office. There was, however, a great deal of the experience to which, perhaps, the political success of the right hon. gent. was owing, which he rather thought not desirable to his noble friend; while such experience as was really valuable, could not be difficult of attainment to that assiduous application of active talents for which his noble friend
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Mr. Rose
thanked the noble lord for the opportunity afforded him by the allusion which he had thought proper to make to the subject, of explaining the sinecure granted to himself. He was before disposed to do so, but he now felt it to be necessary, and should enter into the explanation upon a future day. The right hon. gent. panegyrised the talents and public services of Sir A. S. Hamond.
Mr. S. Bourne
was astonished at the line of argument taken by the noble lord who spoke last but one; namely, that because a public man held a particular sinecure, he should be precluded from objecting to the establishment of any further sinecures. Would the noble lord argue, that in consequence of his right honourable friend the secretary of state for foreign affairs holding two sinecures, (Mr. Rose
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The Attorney General
commented upon the species of experience of which the right hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Rose) seemed to be so very proud. This experience consisted in a knowledge, for the last twenty years, of the abuses which it was the object of the bill before the house to correct, and yet no adequate measure was ever taken by the right honourable gentleman, or his colleagues, to put a stop to them. No; the right honourable gentleman and his colleagues were reposing on the "bed of roses" which they were now using every endeavour in their power to render uneasy to their successors. With regard to the bill before the house, he could not conceive any reason for the earnest opposition made to the provision for appointing a part of the proposed commissioners to inquire, in this country, into the abuses committed in the West Indies. For he could not suppose it possible that any member of parliament would carry his solicitude for public accountants, introduced to office through his patronage, so very far, as to shelter the conduct of such accountants as had taken refuge in this country, from any investigation whatever.
Mr. Johnstone,
adverting to the "bed of roses" alluded to by the last speaker, observed that when he first heard the phrase he was certainly rather surprised at it. But, upon subsequent reflection, seeing that the gentlemen on one side felt so much regret on leaving it, and the gentlemen on the other side so much anxiety to get into it, he could not help thinking that there was something in the place much better than he had at first imagined. With regard to the crimination and recrimination upon the
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Lord Howick,
in allusion to the remarks of an honourable gentleman on the other side (Mr. S. Bourne), observed, that having been but a short time in office, and being comparatively unacquainted with the business of his department, he should feel it a great presumption for him to act without taking the advice of others.
Dr. Laurence
said, whatever sense his hon. friend might now (at the end of three months) find in the expression of "the bed of roses," his right hon. friends about him felt it, however their duty might compel them to occupy it in a situation of toil and anxiety, beyond what they could ever hope to be repaid for by the consideration of the country. He maintained the necessity of an enlarged investigation.
Sir W. Young
detailed the manner and circumstances of drawing the bills from the West Indies; and contended, from the facility of suppressing the evidences there,
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 17.
[MUTINY BILL.] Ld. Grenville
moved the third. reading of the mutiny bill:
Lord Hawkesbury
said, after the full discussion the bill had undergone, he would not detain their lordships by going over the same ground again. His object now was to. move an amendment, which was calculated, in his opinion, to render the measure before the house less objectionable. Many of the arguments urged by noble lords against the bill, still remained unanswered, and formed in his mind very strong objections to the measure. He way still of opinion, that if a choice was allowed to persons enlisting to enlist either for life or for seven years, that ninety-nine out of a hundred would prefer the former. The only fair way of trying the measure in this way would be to allow persons to enlist in either way, giving 16 guineas bounty for enlistment for life, and 12 guineas for 7 years. As it was, however decided by the house, that enlisting for a limited period should become a general measure, it only remained to him to propose what he conceived would be a beneficial alteration of that period. He was of opinion that enlisting men for the short term of seven years would produce little benefit to the army, whilst at the same time it would not be any real advantage to the men enlisted. He thought that 20 or 21 years would be a period much more likely to prove advantageous. Let a man serve for that period, and then, if he survived the contingencies of the service, be entitled to a pension for the remainder of his life. The army would, by this means, always have a certain number of experienced soldiers; the value of whom were well known to all military officers. On the other hand, it was to be feared that if men were enlisted for only seven years, they would become restless and unsteady, and the army not derive much benefit from soldiers of that description. The present bill rendered the period of military service shorter in this country than it was in any other state in Europe, without, as he conceived, promising any adequate advantage. On the contrary, great inconvenience must necessarily arise
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The Earl of Lauderdale
expressed his astonishment that such a motion should come from the other side of the house. On a former evening noble lords on the other side had arraigned his majesty's ministers for trenching, as they alledged, on the king's prerogative, by the enactment relative to limited service contained in this bill, and now they themselves came forward to propose another limited period of service, which was as much an invasion of the king's prerogative, according to their own arguments, as the proposition made by his majesty's ministers. He thought it wholly unnecessary to argue as to the superior inducement which there must be to every man to enlist for seven years rather than for life, as such a disposition was clearly deducible from the slightest experience of human nature. The same argument was equally applicable to an enlistment for seven, instead of twenty years. If noble lords on the other side were told that they must remain in a state of sorrowing and suffering, as it had been termed the other night, for twenty years instead of seven, they would doubtless declaim loudly against it, and endeavour to make the period of seven years still shorter. The opposition made to this measure appeared to him very singular, as the principle of enlisting for a limited period had been applied by noble lords on the other side before they quitted office, to the marines, and it was from the success of this very measure that a very convincing argument was to be deduced in favour of the general application of the principle to the whole army. His lordship stated an order made on the 3d February, 1806, directing men to be enlisted for the marines for a limited period during the war, and read extracts of letters from general Campbell, to prove the success of the measure in obtaining recruits, but did not state the numbers enlisted. As to the objection taken by the noble lord, with respect to drafting, it was well known that when a regiment was ordered to a distant clime, or on foreign service, that there were always individuals belonging to that regiment, who, from age or other causes, were incapable of encountering the fatigue of a voyage, or the heat of the climate to which
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Lord Hawkesbury
in explanation, said he had no knowledge whatever of the order alluded to by the noble earl.
The Earl of Suffolk
argued generally in favour of the bill, and objected to the amendment.
The Earl of Westmoreland
repeated several of his former arguments against the measure, and denied any knowledge of the order to which the noble earl (Lauderdale) had alluded. He supported the amendment.—The question was then put, that the word "seven" stand part of the bill, which was carried. The bill was passed, and a message was sent to the House of Commons to acquaint them therewith.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, June 17.
[MINUTES.]
The Irish Export and Import bill, and the Irish Spirit Licence bill were read a first time.—The Irish Election bill, the Irish Miners bill, the Gibraltar and Malta Post bill, the duke of Grafton's agreement bill, and the Prussian Yarn bill were read a second time.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA]. Mr. Wallace
with a view to shew that no blame was imputable to the late board of controul for resisting the production of certain papers on the subject of India, on the ground that their production would be injurious to the
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Lord Morpeth
objected to the motion upon the same grounds which induced, as the right hon. mover stated, the late board of controul to meet the same motion before. The part of the correspondence which was withheld, contained particulars relative to the private conduct of the nabob of Oude, which it would be highly improper, in his opinion, to lay before the public, especially as they related to a prince at present in amity with this country. The noble lord had no objection to afford any private information desired upon this subject, but he would resist the idea of giving publicity which the motion referred.
Mr. Paull
animadverted upon the singul arground laid by the mover of this proposition, that though he had resisted, when in office, the production of certain documents as injurious to the public interests, yet he still would press his successors to grant precisely the same documents. He was, however, ready to support this motion, as he wished the house to have the fullest information relative to the affairs of India. As to the objections which were expressed against these papers, because they contained some statements upon the misconduct of the nabob of Oude, he was prepared to say that he could prove such misconduct was the result of oppression, injustice, and tyranny practised towards that prince. It was idle therefore to say that the real motive for refusing these papers was was a desire to avoid injuring the character or feelings of that prince. There were, however, as he wished the house to be sensible, several extracts in the papers moved for, which had no reference whatever to the conduct of the nabob of Oude, but which were material to elucidate some part of the conduct of lord Wellesley.
Sir A. Wellesley
on the part of his noble relation, desired that nothing might be brought forward which could have a tendency to injure the nabob of Oude, even though the production of such documents might be somewhat advantageous to his own case.—After some further remarks, the motion was withdrawn.
Mr. Paull
asked the noble lord (Temple) whether it was his object to press coming to a final vote upon the charge against
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Lord Temple
replied that his object was to prevent delay in the investigation of this business; and his notice simply was, that, if no motion upon the subject should be made to-morrow, by any other person, he would feel it his duty to bring it forward. The hon. gent. therefore, having given notice of a motion for to-morrow, his purpose was answered, and he meant to give way to the hon. gentleman.
Mr. Paull
called to the recollection of the house, that his notice on this subject was given the day before the debate took place upon the noble lord's motion, and he appealed to the judgment of the house, whether any delay in the prosecution of this business was attributable to him.
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.]
Ld. Temple moved the 2nd reading of the American Intercourse bill; and on the motion was, that counsel should he called in,
Mr. Rose
spoke to the following effect.—No man, in this house rates the abilities of the right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox) more highly than I do, but he has not considered this subject with the attention it merits. He says the bill under consideration repeals no law. It is true, sir, the word "repeal" does not occur in it; but the enactments do effectually and expressly remove all the colonial restraints in the principle of which established as early as the time of Richard II.; further regulations were made for the benefit of British shipping in subsequent reigns, till that of Charles II. when the system was brought to nearly its present state of perfection. Under the wise and provident restrictions of the law then passed, our naval power has grown to its present strength; it is on that ground, I contend, no permanent alterations should suddenly be adopted distinction between a repeal and a perpetual suspension, as in this case, will be found to be rather a nice-one. The act. of the 12th of Charles II. ch. 18. provides "that nothing shall be imported into, or exported front the plantations," except in British ships, on pain of forfeiting the ships, &c. Under this bill the importation and exportation in Foreign
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Lord Temple
denied, that by any perversion of reasoning it could be established, that his majesty's ministers had insinuated to such a respectable body of men as the ship owners connected with the present subject, that they were blockheads, and that they did not understand their own interests. Nor would the charge, that they were precluded from a fair and candid hearing appear better founded, when it was considered that leave was given to the persons concerned to have their cause pleaded by counsel, at the bar of the house, and that now they declined availing themselves of this permission, and thought such a proceeding unnecessary. The right hon. gent. had stated, that it was desirable to allow every case to stand on the exigency of the moment. This would be the consequence of the proposed bill. Did it go peremptorily to order the ports to be opened? No. The language of it was "when from the necessity of the case it should appear to his majesty, with the advice of his privy council, that the opening of the ports was required." The ship-owners wished for security. Security would be granted
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Sir C. Price
had taken great pains to inform himself on this subject. He had consulted those who were most conversant with it, and on the whole he was convinced that if this bill passed into a law, it would be at tended with the most pernicious effects. Government might as well say to the ship-owners, "Discharge your men, take no more apprentices, build no more vessels." We should lose not only the carrying trade, but a great nursery for our seamen, which would be transported to the other side of the Atlantic, an event that he earnestly deprecated. Feeling, therefore, the necessity of pausing on such an important and dangerous measure, he must second the amendment of his right hon. friend.
Sir W. Young
thought it right that hon. members should be anxious for the commerce and manufactures of the country, but they ought also to attend to the necessities of the West Indies; and certain he was, that the colonies could not be supplied from this country in the two great articles of necessity, provisions, and lumber, nor by any other than America; he should therefore support the bill.
Sir W Curtis
urged the propriety of hearing the ship owners before a committee of the house, that they might have an opportunity of proving the truth of their statements. For his part, there were two
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Sir F. Baring
said, in all cases the navigation laws gave way to necessity; when we wanted provisions, we gave invitations to all nations to furnish them, and never confined them to do it in British ships; on the contrary, we took them as we could get them. He insisted on it, the shipowners of this country could not supply the colonies, and it would be dangerous and cruel, as well as impolitic, to trust to them, at the risk of starving thousands, in case they should fail in the attempt. He was therefore a friend to the bill.
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
had no objection to leaving the exercise of a discretion with ministers, convinced that they would not abuse it. There were, however, clauses in the bill which alarmed him. One in particular, where the importation into the West India islands was extended to all goods whatever, and to "manufactures," a word which he thought ought to be omitted, as all the Islands could require under the bill was lumber. By another clause, a liberty of exportation was given, extending to sugars, &c. which he thought ought to be omitted. If these alterations were understood to be agreed to, he should not object to the bill, otherwise he must oppose its further progress.
Lord Temple
said, that generally speaking, he saw no objection to the alteration proposed by the hon. member.
Mr. Perceval
rose and spoke as follows: —If, sir, this bill goes into a committee, I have no doubt that the noble lord will acquiesce in the amendment proposed by the worthy magistrate who spoke last, and by which some of the objections to the bill will unquestionably be in a degree removed. But however those objections may be removed. But however those objections may be remove, I apprehend that after all that can be effected by giving way to the desire of the worthy magistrate, the house will upon reflection be of opinion that there will still remain objections in principle, which will render it extremely unwise to pass this bill in any shape whatever.—An hon. baronet (sir F. Baring) whose authority on mercantile subjects stands (in this house as well as every where else) extremely high, has given us to understand, that he is decidedly of opinion, that the ship-owners of this country who oppose this bill are desiring to have the monopoly of a trade which, if they had
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The Attorney General
argued, that there were no manufactures carried from America to the colonies, but only food for the slaves, and a few other articles which could not be supplied by Great Britain. The law had been violated during a period of 13 years, and at the discretion of the governors of the colonies. It was said, that lately, government had recovered from its trance, and that some alteration was to have been proposed. But to go on in this course of violating the law was admitted to be generally speaking, a monstrous proceeding. It was even contrary to the oath of the governors, who, in exercising this discretion, were committing something like perjury, and he was surprised to hear his learned friend contend that this was a better system than the one now proposed. They wanted to postpone the further proceeding on this bill for 7 days, and why? For the sake of inquiry. An inquiry into what? No inquiry had been thought of for 13 years, when all was at the discretion of the governors, who might open the ports a month before our ships had arrived at the colonies, and by that means render the out-fits almost useless: And yet the hon. baronet under the gallery (sir C. Price), the representative of the Shipping Interest, preferred that to this system; which did what? Permit the American trade? No; but merely enable the privy council to prevent it, when it was necessary. The necessity had been shewn by the practice of 13 years, and the right hon. gent. over the way (Mr. Rose), with his great experience, his great knowledge, his great purity, and his great attachment to public principles, had permitted it to go on for 13 years. But now he began to find out that all this was very dangerous. But where had the danger been for 13 years? As to the ship owners they might have been heard by their counsel; and if they could, as they said, supply the colonies, why did they not do it? There was nothing iii this bill, to prevent them. (Hear! Hear!)
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Mr. Cunning
rose, and spoke as follows: —The hon. and learned gent. who has just sat down, seems to think that every suggestion and advice from this side of the house is to be received with distrust by ministers, unless accompanied with a declaration of friendship for administration. I have always considered it a sufficient apology for every member of parliament who delivers his opinion in the fair execution of his duty, if he professes to have in view, not the pleasure of the administration of the day, but the interest of his country. Upon that principle I shall take the liberty of considering the subject now before us, than which I am confident there never was a matter brought into this house of greater importance, not so much for its immediate effect, as on account of the political principles connected with it. Many propositions have been sub-
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shall
usage
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Dr. Laurence
observed that the gentlemen who said any thing against this bill, seemed to found their opinions entirely on a fallacy; they spoke as if they considered that a system, which in fact was nothing more than a provisional regulation for the benefit of our shipping, and for the occasional supply of our colonies. These gentlemen, however, who were so extremely tender about the navigation laws, and who were so constantly in the habit of extolling the great virtues of the rt. hon. gent. now no more, (Mr. Pitt) did not seem to recollect any thing about the Dutch property act that was passed during the administration of that gentleman. When it was apprehended that Holland was about to be annexed to France, at first an order in council was passed, permitting the landing of Dutch property in this country from neutral vessels. This practice was afterwards by a positive law extended, and was in that extended state continued for upwards of 4 years, to the total ruin of our navigation laws. Let those gentlemen then triumph in their long experience in that administration; but let them not at the same time affect a tenderness about our navigation laws.
Sir John Newport
rose, merely to state the effect that the proposed regulation had produced in Ireland. The persons concerned in the provision trade, instead of supposing themselves at all injured by this bill, considered that it would promote the export of provisions from that country. They considered that it would be much safer to embark in the trade of supplying the West Indies with provisions, when the discretion was in the privy-council, than formerly when it was vested in the govern-
729
List of the Minority.
Ashley, C.
Castlereagh, Lord
Buxton, Sir R.
Canning, G.
Bagwell, J.
Chute, W.
Bagwell, W.
Curtis, Sir W.
Baker, W.
Dent, J.
Barne, S.
Fellowes, W. H.
Boo
Foster, J.
Brodrick, W.
Fitzhugh, W.
Blaqu
Gibbs, Sir V.
730
Bourne, S.
Garbes, Lord
Huskisson, W.
Rutherford, J.
Hammond, Sir A. S.
Rendlesham, Lord
Holford, G. P.
Rose, G.
King, Sir J. D.
Rose, G. H.
Long, C.
Ryder, R.
Lovaine, Lord
Sibthorpe. H. W.
Leycester, H.
Smith, S.
Lascelies, H.
Smith, G.
M'Nagh
Scott, Sir W.
Manners, Lord C.
Steele, T.
Manners, Lord R.
Scott, C.
Mildmay, Sir H.
Scott, S.
Mainwaring, G. B.
Staniforth, J.
Price Sir C.
Stanhope, S.
Phipps, E.
Somerset, Lord L.
Preston, Sir R.
Thornton, S.
Perceval, S.
Wallace, T.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, June 18.
[ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN SCOTLAND.] Lord Grenville
moved, that the house should resolve itself into a committee to consider of the Administration of civil Justice in Scotland.—The house having accordingly resolved itself into a committee, the noble lord said, that no man could more deeply feel the importance and difficulty of any subject than he did that upon which he now rose to address their lordships. Feeling, however, as he did, all the difficulty of the subject, he felt it at the same time to be his duty, after fully and maturely considering it, to submit certain propositions to their lordships, the objects of which were to remove evils and inconveniences which had arisen to a great height and which loudly demanded a remedy. His attention had been called to the number of appeals in that house, particularly from Scotland, which had increased to such an extent, that their accumulation, and the consequent great delay in their decision, became a most serious evil to suitors in that high court, and was disreputable to its jurisdiction. In considering this subject, his attention was naturally turned to the court of session in Scotland, from whence so many of these appeals came, and there he found also that the business had accumulated to an extent which produced the most material evils to the suitors, from the unavoidable delay which occurred in deciding causes. It would be a superfluous waste of their lordships' time to enter into a history of the court of session; it would be sufficient to observe, that, by the act of union, it was declared to be the court for deciding causes in Scotland, and from which an appeal only lay to the house of lords. It was evident, therefore, that
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seriatim.
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Lord Hawkesbury
stated, that this subject had been under the consideration of the late ministry, who had taken steps for the purpose of obtaining every possible information respecting it, with the view of afterwards bringing it, with the view of afterwards bringing it before parliament. Upon his present view of the subject, he concurred with the noble lord in most of his propositions; he thought the division of the court of session into three courts would be much preferable to two, but doubted the propriety of excluding from the court of review the judges of the chamber, whose decision was appealed against.
The Duke of Montrose
highly approved in general of the plan brought forward by the noble lord, but doubted whether there might not sometimes be local obstacles to trial by jury in civil cases in Scotland.
The Lord Chancellor
also warmly expressed his approbation of the proposed plan, the carrying which into effect would,
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, June 18.
[MINUTES.] Sir J. Sinclair
obtained leave to bring in a bill for altering and amending the acts of the 28th and 30th of the king regulating the number of passengers to be carried on the outside of coaches.—On the motion of Mr. Windham, the lords amendments to the mutiny bill were taken into consideration and agreed to.— Lord Folkstone stated that it would be in the recollection of the house that the sum of 40,000l. had been voted by them for paying the debts of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. Among the sums voted by parliament, and unprovided for, since ordered to be laid before the house, he observed mention of the sum of 41,010l. paid to John earl of Chatham, and George bishop of Lincoln. He felt at a loss how to get at the fact of this appropriation of the public money, but he believed the best mode for him to pursue would be, to move, "that there be laid before the house a copy of the order for paying to John earl of Chatham, and George bishop of Lincoln, the sum of 41,010l." Ordered.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.—OUDE CHARGE.]
Earl Temple having moved the order of the day for taking the Charge against the marquis Wellesley relative to the Nabob of Oude into consideration, Mr. Paull was about to move that witnesses be called in, when the Speaker informed him that the first question was, that the charge be now taken into consideration. The question being put,
Mr. Bankes,
in pursuance of the intimation he had given the preceding day, rose to oppose the motion, and to state the reasons which induced him to think the house should proceed no further in this business, but dismiss it entirely from their consideration; in which he did not think it would be necessary for him to do more than to shew the house that the legislature had already provided another and a more eligible mode of proceeding before a different tribunal. The tribunal to which he alluded, was that established by an act passed in 1784, for the special trial of crimes committed in India. He by no means denied the inquisitorial power of the house of commons; on the contrary, he wished to speak of it always with the highest respect, and to acknow-
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The Master of the Rolls
observed, that the course which his hon. friend had proposed to the house to pursue, was certainly calculated to fiatter their indolence; and, for his part, he should have been glad could it have been adopted with propriety. It would certainly relieve the house from a burden of which all must be sensible. But he thought that the principles and arguments of his hon. friend went too far, and would eventually trench upon those inquisitorial powers which belonged to the house, to enquire into charges of magnitude brought against persons of high dignity. In matters of this kind we must be content to follow the principles of our ancestors. His hon. friend had said, that impeachment should only be resorted to in cases of the last necessity. But it was by no means certain, this would proceed the length of impeachment. The charge alone was now proposed to be taken into consideration, and it would be afterwards for the house to decide, what course should be followed when that was gone through. With regard to the particular mode of trial which he recommended, it could not, from the instance which he had mentioned, be considered as likely to be very expeditious. In 1791, the information was filed against Mr. Holland, and it was not before 1794 that the Court of King's Bench had decided on the form of information to be laid before
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Mr. Secretary Fox
rose and observed, that if there was a wish that one could entertain on the subject in preference to another, it must be to accede to the proposition of the hon. gent. on the personal inconvenience with which a contrary mode of proceeding must be attended to individuals, and the labour to which it must subject them, but also on account of the great inconvenience which must thus be occasioned in conducting the public business of the house. Feeling as he did the importance of the latter consideration, he trusted the house would indulge him in saying a few words relative to the matter which now engaged their attention. Considering the embarrassment that must arise to the public business, if the affair was to go on in the usual way, he thought that it would be absolutely necessary to find out some mode of quickening the natural course of the proceedings. Fir it we were to proceed in the usual way, supposing that this oral evidence should last as long as it had done on former occasions, considering the time that must be spent in taking down the questions and the answers, it was impossible, unless the whole should be much shorter
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On the motion of Mr. Paull,
the house then resolved itself into a committee, to consider of the charge, lord Folkestone in the chair. The chairman first desired the serjeant to call lord Teignmouth. Mr. Paull then said a few words, which we could not distinctly hear, relative to the introduction of a short-hand writer. The Speaker said, that pursuant to the practice of the house, it was not usual to make a motion on the subject; but the clerk on an understanding, would do his duty,—Lord Teignmouth then having appeared at the inside of the bar, the chairman said, "my lord,
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Mr. Paull
immediately rose, and proceeded to interrogate his lordship with respect to transactions in India, from the period of his appointment to the post of governor-general. A question being put to the noble lord, with respect to the opinion he entertained of certain treaties, which had been entered into with the native princes,
Mr. Garrow
rose, and said, whatever questions were asked should merely relate to facts. He apprehended that the opinion of the noble lord, with regard to written documents, could not, with propriety, be asked; as the opinion the house should entertain, would be best known from the treaties themselves.
Mr. Paull
said, if he was not allowed to put the question, a part of his charge must remain without proof.
Mr. Garrow
said, the only mode the hon. gent. could pursue, was first to prove the fact, and then to produce the treaty, to show in what manner it was broken.
Mr. Johnstone
did not think the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) would find himself in any difficulty, as he could ask whether any demand was made on the Vizier, in consequence of additional troops?
Mr. Paull
then proceeded with the examination. Upon the question; "if the nabob had made a forcible representation of the conduct of the resident (Mr. Cherry), for improper interference, would your lordship have thought yourself justified in continuing him at Lucknow?" Lord Teign-mouth was about to read, from a paper which he held in his hand; when
Lord Temple
begged the noble witness might withdraw. He then submitted to the house, whether it was proper the noble lord should read his reply from papers, which were already before the committee? or whether it would not be better, to prevent the house from having garbled extracts from them enforced upon their attention, and to save time, that the witness should say at once, that the answer was to be found in the papers?
Mr. Francis
said, he thought also that the reading of papers was anomalous, and that it was not the practice, in such cases as this, for the witnesses to refer to papers, for any purpose beyond that of refreshing their memories.
Mr. Rose
considered it improper that the noble lord should be interrogated as to his opinion upon any point, and thought
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Mr. Paull
said, the practice of reading from papers had been invariably pursued during the impeachment of Mr. Hastings, and the noble lord was merely referring to memorandums which he held in his hand, for his individual use.
Mr. Garrow
could not conceive what the opinion of the noble witness, asked for in the interrogatory, could have to do with the malversation charged against the governor-general of India. He hardly knew, to what extent that house felt itself privileged to make such inquiries in a case of the nature of that before them; but, certainly, in any other place, the rules of evidence would not permit an inquiry as to the opinion of the witness.
Dr. Laurence
told the hon. and learned gent. that, in the proceedings before this house, strict legal evidence was not required, as nothing could be more different than the situation of the house of commons in search of information, and that of a court of law. Would not the hon. gent. in the situation of an attorney-general, have been able, even in a court of justice, to put a question that should
lead
Mr. Garrow,
said that he was satisfied with the answer of the learned doctor; for it seemed he had strayed from the courts below to this place, where he found that legal knowledge was totally useless in the examination of witnesses. He thanked the learned doctor for his lecture, and said that it seemed, from his report, that this house had resolved most magnificently to depart from the rules of evidence which had been established by the wisdom of ages for the protection of our lives and liberties. He denied it was possible that hearsay evidence could be received in any British court of justice; and, indeed, the learned doctor seemed to correct himself here; for he here added, that legal evidence only was received as far as the prisoner was concerned.
750
Mr. Secretary Windham
observed upon the tone in which the learned gent. had spoken, and said that though he had thanked his learned friend for his lecture, he had not profited by it. Now, he would tell that learned gent. that he had profited by his lecture, and, moreover, that he did not even thank him for it. He had said he had come from the courts below, and from what he had said, one would suppose he thought himself there still. The question was, whether the rules of the courts below applied to parliamentary proceedings? Did the learned gent. mean to say that they did, where the cases were so very different? If he did not mean to say this, he said nothing at all. As to the particular question, opinions might undoubtedly be received in this preliminary enquiry, provided they came from competent persons.
Mr. Garrow
expressed his surprise at the severity of the language which had been applied to him by the right hon. secretary. He had said, that he should not profit by the lecture which he (Mr. Garrow) had delivered; this was the second time he had ever addressed that house, and if he was deserving of a rebuke, the lecture of the right hon. gent. would certainly be profitable to him; and he could not but thank him for the courtesy and kindness with which it had been given. He was not fencing with the argument of the learned gent. (Dr. Laurence), but would again decidedly express his conviction, that no hearsay evidence could be legally received, to advance the conviction of any man, for a conspiracy or otherwise.
Mr. Francis and lord H. Petty
contended that questions as to opinion might be put in such cases as the present, to competent persons; that the object of the house was to gain information, and that the rules of evidence in the lower courts did not apply there. Mr Rose argued that it was not proper to admit mere opinions, even in parliamentary preliminary enquiries, and said that the house was much obliged to his learned friend for originating the present discussion. Mr. Martin (of Galway), and Mr. Paull, argued in favour of putting the question. Mr. Alexander spoke against putting the question proposed.
Mr. Wilberforce
thought it perfectly correct to interrogate, with regard to the constitution and practice of the Indian government, a person so competent to answer as the noble lord under examination. At the same time he would recommend to the hon.
751
Mr. Paull
conceived his question as precise as could be desired. After a few words from Mr. Huskisson, the examination was resumed. The scope of the examination related to the system upon which the noble witness acted in the government of India; the course which he would have followed in certain cases, in which marquis Wellesley was concerned; his opinion upon certain acts of that noble marquis; his construction of different treaties, particularly that concluded between the Company and the nabob of Oude, in 1798. Upon the construction of the latter treaty, it was contended by Mr. C. Wynne, sir A. Wellesley and Mr. Wallace, that no question should be proposed to the witness, a copy of the treaty itself being on the table, of which the house could of course form its own judgment, without resorting to the opinion of the witness. Dr. Laurence stated, that a similar question had been put to sir R. Barker, on the trial of Mr. Hastings, and besides that the house had already decided that the witness could be examined as to matters of opinion. The question was accordingly allowed.—Sir A. Wellesley put several questions to the noble lord with regard to the expence of the company's troops employed in the territories of the nabob of Oude, the character of the nabob's own troops, and the disposition of his subjects.—On a question being put by Dr. Laurence, as to whether the nabob vizier was addicted to excessive drinking or not, a good deal of conversation took place. It was at length determined that the question should be asked. The noble lord answered in the affirmative, but added that he always preserved so much decency as not to expose himself in public; he also added that his highness made use of spirituous liquors.—To a question relative to the great estimation in which the turban is held among the Mussulmen, the noble lord, among other things in his answer stated, that he recollected on one occasion, the nabob having changed with him, and put on his lordship's hat, whilst the noble lord himself wore the turban of the nabob.—When the examination was concluded for the day, and the house had resumed, a conversation took place on the subject of the order of the house in proceeding. It appeared to be the understanding of the house at length, that the Speaker
752
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, June 19.
[PETITION OF JUDGE FOX.] Lord Grenville
moved the order of the day for taking into consideration the Petition of the hon. Mr. Justice Fox. The Petition was read by the clerk as follows.
"To the right hon. the Lords Spiritual and Temporal of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in parliament assembled: The Petition of the hon. Luke Fox, one of the justices of his majesty's court of common pleas in Ireland:
753
754
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(Signed) LUKE FOX."
Lord Grenville
then rose and addressed their lordships as follows:—My lords, while your lordships were occupied with so much laudable industry and perseverance in discharging that important duty which devolved on you in consequence of the Articles of Impeachment preferred by the house of commons, it was admitted that it would have been improper, not to say impossible, for your lordships to have said what course you would adopt with respect to the present matter of complaint. The proceedings have hitherto amounted to nothing more than postponement, from time to time, of the order for the attendance of the witnesses; and it was understood that such delay should operate no prejudice to the question on either side, when the period should arrive at which your lordships could enter into its discussion. That period has
756
ab initio
757
758
759
ex parte
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761
762
763
764
The Marquis of Abercorn
began by observing, that were the house prevailed upon to concur in the motion of the noble lord, they would take a step, he was thoroughly convinced, which the country might have for ever to lament. He contended for the full eligibility of that house to entertain and discuss a complaint preferred on the motion of any of its members, and without reference to what the other house of parliament might do or not. To abandon such a principle, would be to deviate from a line of conduct often acted Upon by their forefathers. But the present was not the time for a consideration of that kind, the period was past; on its preferable line of proceeding, the house had repeatedly and solemnly decided, and even confirmed it by a legislative measure at the close of the last session, which authorised the carrying on these proceedings in the present. When he considered what had been already done, the orders repeatedly made for the attendance of witnesses, who had come from distant parts of Ireland, and which implied a pledge of farther proceeding, he was at a loss to reconcile it with a principle of good faith and justice to their fellow-subjects in that part of the United Kingdom. These witnesses came many a weary mile, by sea and land; they were encouraged to come thus far, and felt an assurance that the case would be proceeded with. Were the contrary line adopted, it would not be too much to say it would be both seen and felt. In considering the present momentous question, he felt it incumbent on him to remind their lordships of the circumstances of the case of what it was the learned judge, whose conduct gave rise to the pressent discussion, stood charged, the particulars of his conduct in those respects, and the proceedings at different times adopted in that house, from the time at which the complaint was originally preferred by hint, to the present period. The noble marquis then entered into an exposition of the facts and circumstances specified in those articles of charge, which have been long before the house and the publick. He first particularly adverted to the adresses, which he described the learned judge as endeavouring to procure,
for the removal of that amiable and excellent nobleman (the earl of Hardwicke) who sat near him, from the vice-royalty of Ireland; a line of conduct, which, in one of his majesty's judges, of all others, he deem-
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766
Lord Eldon
said he should give a most decided negative to this motion. He knew, as well as any man, the importance of preserving the independence of the judges; but there was something equally dangerous with a condition of dependence, and that was, that they should be placed above all law and all controul. He did not see how the enquiry could be dismissed, unless the evidence before the house were erased from the journals. The noble lord, who now sat on the woolsack, was well acquainted with the importance of the "Trial by Jury," and had selected for his motto this
767
The Lord Chancellor
was extremely sorry, at that late hour, to solicit the attention of their lordships, but he could not avoid making a few observations. When this subject first came before their lordships, he was a member of the commons house of parliament. The learned judge, whose conduct was referred to, had applied to him to appear as counsel, but he had declined all interference, as he understood the object was to remove this high officer from his judicial functions, and that could not be done without the assent of time representative part of the legislature. From this circumstance, and the little expectation he entertained that this subject would so early be submitted to the determination of their lordships, he had not prepared himself by any previous examination of the evidence; but holding the important situation he did, it would be absurd for him to say, that he could form no opinion on the matter now before their lordships, because the merits of it depended on the existing law, and not on the testimony collected for the purpose of this investigation. The noble and learned lord who spoke last had said, that there were indeed parts of the evidence which would attract the particular attention of him who had the honour of then addressing the house, and because he knew his sentiments, and saw upon the carriage which came to the door of their lordships, the motto to be borne with the armorial insignia of the Erskine family through all future generations—that motto was, "Trial by Jury:" although he (the lord chancellor) had been engaged in the hottest times in the defence of that cause, he did not, by the trial bu jury, mean to imply any thing distinct and separate from the judge who presided at those trials: it was the trial by judge and jury which attracted his respect and admiration, and he had learnt to di-
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770
Lord Hawkesbury
did not rise for the purpose of going into the evidence, but meant to confine himself to that part of the question which had relation to the jurisdiction of their lordships. It was necessary to come to a precise knowledge of the principle upon which they were to proceed. One great error appeared to him to pervade the argument of the noble baron who made the motion, and it was, that he seemed to consider their present proceeding as an exercise of the judicial power, when, in fact, they were only exercising that inquisitorial authority with which they were vested by the constitution. No two powers could be more distinct; they might be exercised together without any violation of the equitable principles of our code of judicature. If they were to be restricted from the exertion of the inquisitorial power, because it was possible that the commons might consider the offence which they were enquiring into as fit matter for impeachment, there would be an end at once to any practical employment of it. They could neither address for the removal of a secretary of state, a first lord of the admiralty, or the governor of a colony. Their lordships, he thought, had placed themselves in that situation that they could not
771
The Earl of Moira
said, he had been prevented, by his occupations elsewhere, from attending the proceedings; but the first impression on his mind was, that there would be no impropriety or inconvenience in entertaining the subject. However, more mature reflection, as well as the arguments which he had heard offered that night, convinced him that his first opinion was erroneous. The house were in the strange situation of hearing a trial, in which there was no ostensible prosecutor; for the persons who acted in that capacity, from very laudable motives he would admit, sat amongst them as judges. He was clearly of opinion, that the proceedings should have originated in the other house. His lordship quoted the case of judge Cleland, who had been guilty of the same offence imputed to Mr. justice Fox; namely, imposing an exorbitant fine on the county of Essex. But how did the county proceed? Why, they resisted the payment, and so brought the conduct of the judge to legal investigation.
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
differed in opinion with the noble lord who had just spoken. He felt, that the inquisitorial power had been properly placed in their hands, and he wished to see it exercised. The commons were, in fact, privy to the proceedings against the learned judge, for they had given their consent to a bill for continuing them.
Lord Auckland
repeated his former objections to proceeding. From the first time the subject was introduced in the house, he strove, to the utmost of his poor abilities, to point out to their lordships the injustice and inconsistency in which they were about to involve themselves. He thought, from the discussion of that night, that he was likely to see an end of the measure.
The Earl of Hardwicke
considered the motion as calculated to get rid of the proceeding altogether, and therefore by no means likely to satisfy the feelings of the people of Ireland. There, he was fearful, their lordships determination would be considered as a denial of justice.
Earl Spencer
said, nothing had been ur-
772
The Earl of Westmoreland
thought it would be a great hardship on the learned judge, if he were deprived of an opportunity of vindicating his conduct, and coming to parliament for remuneration of his expences; in case his innocence of the charges should be made manifest.—The house then divided on lord Grenville's motion, for taking the charges into consideration on that day two months, Contents 25; Noncontents 16; Majority 9.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, June 19.
[IRISH ELECTION BILL.] Sir John Newport
moved the order of the day for a committee of the whole house on the Irish Election bill. On the question that the Speaker do leave the chair being put
Mr. Alexander
begged to be informed by the right hon. baronet, whether he proposed to go into the committee pro forma, for the purpose of filling up the blanks, with a view to have the bill afterwards printed, and to allow sufficient time to gentlemen to consider its provisions before they should be called upon to decide upon its merits, or with a view to proceed bona fide with the bill.
Sir John Newport
though he had proposed to proceed with the bill, had no objection to go into the committee pro forma, and to allow any reasonable time for the consideration of the measure, but would not consent to any delay that would carry it beyond the present session.
Colonel Vereker
then rose, and spoke with great warmth of the rapidity with which the right hon. baronet had pressed the bill through the previous stages, while he had declined doing any thing in the present session for remedying those evils which existed in the paper circulation of Ireland. He had no idea of the contents of this bill till very lately, and its object appeared to be to strike a death-blow at every corporation in Ireland. It arose from the right hon. baronet's own experience in a late election. He would not impute sinister or improper motives to the right hon. bart.;
773
Sir J. Newport
explained the object of the bill. At present petitioners claiming the rights of freemen in corporations, presented their claims to the mayor, who was an annual officer; and it too often happened, from this and other causes, that their claims were neglected and mislaid for years, and that the freeman was deprived of his just rights, or forced to reclaim them at a great expence. The present bill provided that every claim should be delivered to the town clerk, who was to present it to the mayor within forty-eight hours; and that some decision should be passed upon it within one month after its presentment. It obliged the corporation to proceed to some decision, before they entered on any other election business. Should the claim be rejected by them, and afterwards brought into a court of justice, and decided in favour of the claimant, it provided that he should recover all those expenses which he had been put to in pursuing his just rights. This was the more necessary as individuals at present found it ruinous to cope with the weight of a corporation purse. He knew that in one instance 5000l. had been raised on the revenues, of a corporation, for supporting the law expences occasioned by these appeals. The present bill called upon the corporations, to do nothing but justice, and whatever allusions the honourable member might make to his motives, he trusted the house would do him the justice to believe, that in the exercise of his official duty, he was of actuated by any private or sinister views.
Mr. S. Bourne
thought the question to be considered was, whether a bill :which so much affected the rights of the electors, should be allowed to pass the house in the course of a few days, and before the people of Ireland had time to judge of it? He suggested to the right hon. bart. the propriety of filling up the blanks now, rather than ordering the bill to be printed; and afterwards to let it stand over to the next session of parliament.
Mr. Alexander
asserted, that in the corporation in Ireland with which he had the most connexion, he never heard of any
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Mr. Foster
said, he hoped that op a question which affected so many of the franchise rights of Ireland, the right hon. bart. would not, in the absence of so many Irish members, press a bill now on the 19th, which was only brought in on the 14th of this month. It was a serious thing to impose a penalty of 1000l. on a returning officer, for omission or neglect; and 500l. penalty in him, if he was a revenue officer, and gave a casting vote. If the measure was now persisted in, he should oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair.
Mr. O'Hara
said, that if the gentlemen opposite wished the bill to be well understood by the corporations in Ireland, the best mode of doing it would be, to have the blanks first filled up in the committee, in which all the objections they proposed might be obviated.
Lord Temple
thought, that as the objections went merely to the clauses, it would be right to go into the committee, and after they were filled up, he understood that his right hon. friend would consent to defer the report for ten days, during which there would be time to collect the sense of the corporations in Ireland.
Sir John Newport
said, he should consent to allow foureen days for consideration, after the blanks were filled up; but if he deferred it for twelve months, the consequence might be, that a number of electors stood a chance of being deprived of their franchises.
Colonel Bagwell
did not think a fortnight, by any means, sufficient to collect the sense of the corporations in the distant parts of Ireland.
Dr. Laurence
said, that if any modification of the provisions was desirable, that would be done best in a committee.
Mr. S. Bourne
thought that as there were so many objections to the bill, he should vote against the Speaker's leaving the chair, unles it was agreed that the blanks should be filled up in the committee, and the further consideration of the measure deferred till the next session. That house, he thought, should be careful, and particularly in the absence of so many Irish members, how it interfered in the elective franchises of Ireland, and of Ireland only. Were it even early in the session, he thought 14 days would be insufficient for the considera-
775
Mr. Alexander
stated his objections to a measure which affected the rights of all the corporations of Ireland, comprising not less than 300,000 electors. He was called to order by
Dr. Laurence
who thought it irregular that he should take that opportunity or entering on the general merits of the bill.
Mr. Alexander
was again proceeding, when he was interrupted by
Lord Temple
who observed, that it was then on the stroke of five o'clock, and that an understanding had last night prevailed, that no other subject should be discussed, till the examination of witnesses on the Charges against the Marquis Wellesley was concluded, and therefore moved 'that the chairman should report progress, and have leave to sit again.'
The Speaker
said, there was an understanding that all other business should give way to the examination of witnesses.
Colonel Vereker
considered this interposition as the exercise of ministerial influence.
M. Foster
remarked, that it was irregular in the noble earl, to take advantage of his speaking to oreder, for the purpose of making a motion; the noble earl rose either in order or disorder. The house was pressed by the right hon. bart. into this committee, and the clock had not since moved so rapidly, but he might have foreseen 5 o'clock would arrive before the discussion could be over.
Mr. S. Bourne
expressed his surprise, that the advocates of this bill should propose and press a measure at the same moment, or within a few moments of the time, when they were obliged to propose that progress should be reported, and the chairman have leave to sit again.
Lord Temple
said, that the would not appeal to the hon. gent. but tot the committee at large, whether the understanding was not last night, that the examination of witnesses in lord Wellesley's case, should precede every other discussion? His motion, therefore, was not liable to the invidious remarks made on the other side.—The house then divided on the chairman's reporting progress, when the numbers were, for it, 39: against
776
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.—OUDE CHARGE.] Mr. Pault
moved the order of the day, for the house resolving itself into a committee, to take into consideration the Oude charge.
Sir A. Wellesley
asked what time the hon. gent. thought the further examination of evidence would occupy?
Mr. Paul
replied, that he expected to close his examination of sir Alured Clarke, major Ouseley, and Mr. Johnstone that night: but he proposed postponing the further evidence till Monday, on account of the absence of some important documents which were not yet before the house.—The house then resolved itself into a committee, lord A. Hamilton in the chair.
Mr. Paull
expressed a wish, that Mr. Johnstone, as being a member of the house, should be first examined.
Mr. Johnstone
felt himself placed in rather an aukward situation by being called on as a witness. He had wished to deliver his opinion on the charge as a member of the house, and probably his being called on to give evidence might preclude him from delivering his sentiments.
Mr. Paull
conceived it absolutely necessary to establish his charge, that the hon. gent. should be examined.
Mr. Johnstone
was then examined in his place, for four hours, the tendency of the examination was to shew the state of the revenue and military force of Oude, the moral habits of the nabob Asoph UI Doulah, and the general instructions given to the British residents at the court of Lucknow.
Sir Alured Clarke
was then called to the bar, and examined for a considerable time. On a question being put to him by Mr. Paull, whether he would consider the payment of 500,000l. by the Nabob to the East India Company, above the 70 crore of rupees stipulated in the treaty of 1798, an infraction of that treaty, Sir Alured was ordered to withdraw, and a long discussion ensued.—The question was strenuously opposed by Mr. Wallace, Mr. S. Bourne, Mr. Huskisson, sir A. Wellesley, and other members, upon the ground that as the treaty itself was on the table, the committee could form its own decision upon the subject, and ought not to receive evidence of opinion from any witness. Mr. Paull contended that he was grounded in this question upon the undisputed admission of the house the preceding night. This produced a debate of considerable length, when the
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Mr. Paull
stated that the next question he had to put, was also a question as to opinion, namely, whether it the Bengal army had been marched to the frontier of Oude, with a view to repel the enemy, then marching to attack that territory, the witness thought it would be fair or just, and not contrary to treaty, that the nabob vizier? but as the committee had decided that night contrary to its own practice the further proceeding, in order to re-consider and new-shape the questions he had still to ask, and to give an opportunity for the attendance of other members.
Earl Temple
opposed the adjournment, and thought the speech of the hon. gent. most unparliamentary, when he proposed to take the sense of the committee to-morrow on a question which had been already decided. The noble lord then made some remarks on the propriety of taking the opinion of witness in the manner proposed, which mode of proceeding he deprecated.
Mr. Hutchinson
was decidedly of opinion that the hon. member had sufficient ground for moving the adjournment. The question of opinion had been fully debated on the examination of lord Teignmouth, the result of which was, that questions of opinion may be put to the witness at the bar. This having been the decision of last night, he was really surprised to hear the point revived in 24 hour afterwards, with a view of departing from what appeared to have been established as the practice for future proceedings in this case.
Mr. Fox
concurred with the hon gent. that the departure from the practice of parliament sanctioned last night, was a sufficient ground for authorising the hon. member to move an adjournment. It was gravely and solemnly debated last night, whether questions of opinion should or should not be put to witness examined at the bar respecting this impeachment? Although several members had spoken in the negative, yet, on the whole, the house had certainly acquiesced in the affirmative, without dividing, or coming to any specific resolution. On this ground, and from a regard to the consistency of the house, he certainly thought the motion for adjournment well founded. After some conversation, both sides of the house came to an understanding, that the question of opinion be put. In con-
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Sir Arthur Wellesley
said, that in order to the defence of his noble relation against one of the principal charges of profusion and extravagance, it would be materially important to have the testimony of a gentleman, named Salmon, who had been the military auditor at Bengal, and who had formed the estimates upon which the sums in allusion were expended. He therefore called upon the hon. gent. who brought forward those charges, to move that Mr. Salmon be summoned to attend the committee.
Mr. Paull
thought it every extraordinary, that the hon gentleman should dictate to him what witness he should bring forward in support of his charges, which he had no doubt of being able to substantiate.
Sir A. Wellesley
said, he hoped when the committee should decide upon this part of the case, it would be recollected that the hon. gent. summon a most competent witness.
Colonel Wood
said, if the hon. member refused to comply with claim so fair, the house had the power, and he hoped would, for its own satisfaction, summon Mr.Salmon.—The chairman at length left the chair, and obtained leave to sit again to-morrow. Ordered, upon the motion of colonel Wood, that Mr. Salmon be summoned to attend the committee.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, June 2O.
[TORTOLA FREE PORT BILL.] Earl Spencer
moved the second reading of the Tortola Free Port bill.
The Duke of Montrose
expressed his regret at the thin attendance of their lord-ships on a question which he conceived to be one of the greatest importance. He was at a loss to conceive the reasons upon which the measure was founded. The present board of trade had acted in this instance diametrically opposite to the decision of the board of trade of last year. He had hoped that upon this question the noble lord at the head of the treasury would have attended, but understanding that noble lord was prevented from attending by a slight indisposition, he must request his noble friend (earl Spencer) to act as umpire upon this question between the two boards of trade. The principle upon which the board of trade of last year had acted was clearly
779
Lord Auckland
defended the bill, which he considered a measure of sound policy. The object of it was to render Tortola a carrying island, and to take from St. Thomas's some part of the carrying trade in the possession of that island, in which a number of British shipping were employed. This was a measure which he conceived would therefore be beneficial to our commerce and our navigation, whilst, with respect to our West India trade, it would not be injured, nor did any of those persons concerned in that trade, or connected with West India interests, whom he was in the daily habit of seeing, make the least complaint, that any such injury was likely to result from it. As to the dangers Which the noble duke apprehended, there was an express provision in this bill for the purpose of preventing the importation into this country of foreign sugar, as there was a clause by which no more sugar was to be imported into this country from Tortola than the amount of the average annual produce of that island. This, therefore, negatived all those evil consequences apprehended by the noble duke. as it was not to be supposed that officers employed in the customs of Tortola would grant false documents, when, at the end of the year,
780
Lord Hawkesbury
supported the arguments urged by the noble duke, and supposed that this measure must have come before the board of trade in the absence of the noble lord (Auckland) opposite, whose accurate knowledge upon the subject forbade the supposition that he had been present when the measure was discussed.
Earl Spencer
observed that, in his new office of umpire, conferred upon him by the noble duke, he had little difficulty in deciding, as he found that the present board of trade had, in this measure, only followed the example of the former board of trade, by whom an act similar to the present was brought forward, last session, for establishing a free port at Nassau, in the Bahamas. His lordship likewise supported the bill, on grounds similar to those urged by Lord Auckland.—The bill was then read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, June 20.
[MINUTES.]
The Assessed Tax bill, the Irish Mine bill, the Duke of Grafton's Agreement bill,the Prussian Yarn bill, and the Gibraltar and Malta Postage bill, were read a third time, passed, and ordered to the lords.—Lord Temple moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the American Intercourse bill. The house accordingly resolved itself into a committee on the bill, when the amendments proposed on a former night by Mr. Prinsep were adopted, and the bill ordered to be reported to-morrow.—Lord H. Petty moved, that there he laid before the house a copy of the Report of the Comptroller of Army Accounts, with respect to the mode in which the accounts of Mr. Trotter were made up, together with a copy of the Minute of the Board of Treasury thereon; also of two Minutes of the Board of Treasury on the Accounts of Mr. Pierce, Army Clothier for troops on the Continent.—Ordered.
[AFFAIRS OF IND1A—MOTION FOR PRINTING THE FIRST CHARGE.] Mr. Paull
moved that the first article of charge against marquis Wellesley be printed. The printing of this article had formerly been discharged, in consequence of the evidence not being before the house. It was now, in a great measure, produced, and he ap-
781
Sir A. Wellesley
opposed the motion, and observed, that it was pretty extraordinary the hon. gent. should now move for printing this charge, which 3 months ago the house had by its vote, ordered to be printed, and afterwards reseinded that vote. The printing at that time, when there was a prospect that the charge might have been. taken into consideration in the course of this session, would have been perfectly fair and reasonable, compared with such a measure at this late period of the session, when there was no probability this subject could be taken into consideration, and when the charge, if printed, would not be for the consideration of the members, but for the purpose of going forth to the whole country, as one of the most heavy and criminal charges against his noble relation that ever had been brought against any man in a public situation; when afterwards it would depend entirely upon the discretion of the hon. gent. whether he should move the house to take it into consideration next session or not. He objected to the motion also in point of order, as the hon. gent. had not given any previous notice of such a motion.
Mr. Paull
did not conceive himself under any necessity of giving such previous notice by the rules and orders of the house, and persisted in his motion. He disclaimed any such motive as that imputed to him by the hon. relative of the noble lord, and said, that he moved for the printing now, because it would be impossible to understand the subject with a view to its consideration, unless members were enabled to compare the evidence since laid on the table with the several particulars of the charge, in order to see how the charge was supported.
The Speaker
stated that the practice of the house required a notice every case where opposition to the motion was likely to be made.
Lord Folkestone
did not look upon the practice of giving notices as an established practice. It certainly was not uniformly enforced. He wished the point to be settled.
The Speaker
said he had no difficulty in stating, that every annual and ordinary motion of course, also every new motion, where the person at the head of the department to which it applied was present, and did not object, might be made without no-
782
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, that when this practice began first to prevail, he foresaw the difficulties that would result from it, According to the old rules of parliament, any member was competent to make what motion he pleased, and it could not be withdrawn, if seconded, without the leave of the house. Notices, therefore, were mere matter of agreement; but in this instance, as the motion was objected to, he hoped it would be withdrawn.
Mr.Rose
said, though there was no standing order to the effect, he wished the practice to continue as laid down by the Speaker.
Mr. Windham
stated the ancient usage of parliament to be, that motions might be offered without any notice. This usage was even now often applied with advantage. The recent practice, founded upon general convenience, was, certainly, that notice should be given. He was unwilling that any general unqualified rule should be established; but that every case should be left to the sense of the house on its own individual merits.
Lord Folkestone
observed, that the rule was far from being uniformly observed; for, in a late instance, the house allowed the foreign secretary of state (Mr. Fox) to pass, at the hour of 12 o'clock at night, so important a thing as a Vote of Approbation for the conduct of earl St. Vincent, while at the head of the board of admiralty, without any previous notice.
Mr. S. Bourne
said, that the vote passed in favour of earl St. Vincent, at midnight, and without any previous notice, was a singular and Unprecedented proceeding; and was entering more at large into that subject, when he was interrupted by
The Speaker,
who observed, that it was neither orderly nor convenient to take this opportunity a entering into the discussion of a former motion.
Mr. Paull
said, that as there were many instances of motions without notice, he thought his would pass as a matter of course; but having been opposed, he would beg leave to withdraw it, and give notice that he should renew the motion on Tuesday next; which was agreed to.—He next observed, that one of time witnesses necessary to this impeachment (sir J. Craig) was ill, and unable to attend at the bar of the
783
AFFAIRS or INDIA—OUDE CHARGE.] Mr. Paull
moved the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a committee for the further consideration of the Oude Charge against marquis Wellesley.
Lord Folkestone
before the house should resolve itself into a committee, wished to call the consideration of the house to a subject which strongly affected his own mind. He thought, that from the great extent of the evidence on both sides, upon those several charges, it would be utterly impossible for members to have sufficiently considered the nature a that evidence, to enable them to come to a deliberate decision upon those charges in the present session. He was of opinion, therefore, that the best way to proceed would be to have the evidence fully gone through in the present session, and that all the documents adduced on both sides should be printed for the use of the members, who, in the course of the recess, would have an opportunity of considering and weighing the testimony maturely, and -might come the better prepared, on the meeting of the ensuing session, to give a clear, deliberate, and decided vote on the subject. The hon. gent. who brought forward the charge would be greatly injured by a premature decision of the case. The noble lord would only have the disagreeable feeling of a charge having been made against him which had not been decided, a situation to which all persons in high situations must be aware that they were exposed. But he could not see what injury he could thereby sustain. Every person who read the one part of the evidence would have the curiosity to read the other also; and so no more injury would really be sustained than where the public, even after a decision, were entitled to read the evidence on both sides, and to form their own conclusions.
Mr. Paull
said, that it would be highly conducive to his own ease, quiet and convenience, that the present charge should be determined during the present session. He, however, declared that he conceived himself as having come under no pledge to conclude the charge during the present session, if the evidence should not have been completely and fully gone through. He was conscious that he had proceeded with a de-
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Lord Temple
disclaimed having ever expressed a wish or an intention to press the house to a final decision on the subject on any given day.
Mr. Hurst
observed that it was a fundamental principle of the law of that the accused should be presumed innocent until actually found guilty. Therefore he should feel himself warranted in stating that the noble marquis who seas the object of this accusation was innocent, and indeed
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Mr. Paull
maintained that that part of the charge which he had submitted to the house relative to the noble lord's having declined to resort to the advice of his council upon matters of great public importance as his duty prescribed, was fully proved by the evidence even of the last witness.
Mr. Riley
was called in and examined. His statements for the most part went to show that, in the district where he was magistrate, which appeared to be in the ceded provinces, the Zemindars and principle inhabitants, who influenced the mass of the population, were inimical to the British government, in consequence of the introduction of certain regulations, and that they were ripe for revolt. The presence of troops was necessary for the collection of the revenue.—Mr. Beresford, after the witness had been ordered to withdraw, said, that had he not been disinclined to interrupt the business, he would have objected to such questions being put, as they would give information to the enemy.
Major Ouesley
was then examined: he had long resided at Lucknow, and was in the habits of intimate acquaintance with the present nabob, in whose employment he is at present. As to his general character he stated, that he was a man of dignified. manners, and very princely deportment; that he was well versed in all the literature of the East, and was possessed of an excellent taste in architecture and other arts; and that in private life he was social, and fond of horses, of hunting, and of all field amusements. Notwithstanding the intimate acquaintance that the witness had with him, he never saw any great depression of spirits in him on account of the changes introduced by marquis Wellesley. His cavalcade was not quite so great as that of his predecessor, but it was better appointed. He had now in his stables about 3000 of the finest horses, including about 130 Arabian saddle-horses. He had about 1300 elephants, and in all the other expenses of his state he was more sumptuous than before; he went to
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, June 23.
[MINUTES.]
The bills upon the table were forwarded in their respective stages; among these, the West India Auditors' bill was read a third time, and passed: and the Irish Mines, Gibraltar Postage, and Grafton Agreement bills, were read a second time.
[PROTEST AGAINST THE PROCEEDINGS IN THE CASE OF JUDGE FOX.]
—Dissentient;—First, Because, although according to the terms of the Resolution, it hath been proposed only to postpone the proceeding in this matter for two months, it hath been avowed by the noble lord who moved it, That the Resolution hath for its object, to put an end to all further investigation into the grounds of the motion made in this house, to address his majesty to remove the judge, touching whose alledged conduct the proceedings have been had in this house.—Secondly, Because it having been questioned in the course of debate, whether this house can legally and constitutionally entertain a motion for an address to remove a judge, on account of alledged misconduct in the execution of his office, before some proceedings have been had respecting the same elsewhere, we feel it incumbent on us to record our opinions, That it is the clear right of this house, according to the provisions of the act of setlement of the 12th and 13th of king William III. to entertain in the first instance, a motion for an address to his majesty for the removal of a judge, provided the facts alledged as the grounds of the address shall be sufficient to justify the proceeding, and shall have been proved to the conviction of the house.—Thirdly, Because, though it is unquestionably of great public importance, that the judges should fully possess the independence intended to be secured to them in their high station, it appears to us not to be necessary for the support of that inde-
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, June 23.
[MINUTES.] Sir J. Newport
brought up a bill for enabling his majesty to accept the services of Volunteers from the Irish militia, under certain restrictions, which was read a first time.— Sir J. Newport brought up a bill for regulating the collection of the revenue on spirits in Ireland, which was read a first time.— Sir. J. Newport observing that considerable difficulties existed in the trade between Great Britain and Ireland, which existed from regulations made prior to the union, that were now become useless, gave
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[IRISH ELECTION BILL.] sir J. Newport
moved that the Irish Election bill be committed, with a view, he said, to have the blanks filled up, and to have the bill printed as amended, in order that it might in this state, get into the possession of the public. But he was so convinced of the fitness and the propriety of this bill, and that the more it was considered, the more favourably it would be received, that he would abandon it for the present session, pledging himself to bring in a bill at the commencement of the next session, upon the same principle, and with the same provisions. This he did that there might be no objection as to the point of time and notice, and that no one might say that he took advantage of the influence of his official situation, when he wished the bill to rest entirely on its own merits.
Colonel Vereker
observed, that in agreeing to the present committal, and to the subsequent postponement of the bill until the next session, he begged not by any means to be understood to consent to the principle. The bill was founded on injustice and an invasion of the chartered right of all the corporations in Ireland: charters granted at the earliest period of our history, and enjoyed unmolested and unimpaired, until attacked by the hon. baronet. He should exert every means in his power to pro
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING GREENWICH HOSPITAL.] Lord Henry Petty
acquainted the house, that he had a message from his majesty to this house, and he presented the same to the house; and it was read by Mr. Speaker as followeth, viz. "George His majesty, having taken into his serious consideration the expediency of making more effectual provision for the support and maintenance of aged, disabled, and wounded seamen in his majesty's service, desires the assistance of
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[AUDITORS OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
rose, in pursuance of the notice which he had formerly given, to submit to the house a plan for the More effectually Auditing of the public Accounts. The house would do him the justice to believe, that after the views which he had stated on a former occasion on this subject, and the sense which he entertained of the magnitude and pressing nature of the evil, no unnecessary delay had taken place bringing forward this plan, but that every moment had been employed in the investigation of the subject, and providing means for obviating every possible objection. He was glad, however, that he was enabled, notwithstanding the difficulties that stood in the way, to move for this bill before the conclusion of the present session of parliament. Without going over the grounds over which he had formerly travelled, or entering upon statements which had then appeared to convince the house of the necessity of doing something for the purpose of having this mass of accounts audited, he would content himself with laying before the house the basis of the plan which he had in view, and mentioning the amount of the accounts which remained unaudited, with respect to which he had now more full and correct information than he had when he had before occasion to address the house on this point. When this was considered it would be a proof, not, certainly, of the efficacy of the measure which he was about to propose, but undoubtedly of the necessity of doing something. He would afterwards shew that this method was the only one which was likely to be attended with the desired success. The amount of accounts unaudited was greater than he had before stated. The amount of account delivered in was above 52 mil-
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Mr. Rose
called the attention of the house to a number of detailed calculations, and contended, that out of the 534 millions only 5 millions, or at most 8 millions, were to be accounted for. The rest were, to all intents and purposes, accounted for as satisfactorily as was possible, though, perhaps, the whole had not passed the commissioners of accounts; and of this 8 millions, the only part upon which investigation could attach, with any hope of recovering a shilling for the public, was about 99,000l. So that the construction of all that expensive system of machinery proposed by the noble lord, of increasing commissioners, accountants, and all the other train of subordinate officers, was, in fact, doing nothing for the public. With respect to the accounts in the West Indies, an act passed in the last year for appointing new commissioners to follow up the enquiry in that quarter, from which commissioners no report had yet been made. In his opinion, therefore, it would have been much more adviseable for the noble lord to have waited for the report of those commissioners, and taken more time to consider and mature his plan, instead of precipitating the country into so much useless
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[AFFAIRS OF INDIA—OUDE CHARGE.] Mr. Paull
moved the order of the day for a committee of the whole house on the Oude charge; when the house resolved into the committee, Mr. Hawthorne in the chair.—The first witness called was col. Baynes, who had been aid-de camp to general sir J. Craig. He was examined touching the state of the territories of the nabob Vizier, both before and after the treaty of cession, and as to the various military operations whilst he was in India. With respect to the disbanding the troops of the nabob, he had no opportunity of knowing, personally, whether that measure had been resorted to with the consent of the nabob, or executed without his concurrence.—Mr. H. Strachey was next called in. He had filled several situations, such as register, collector, and judge of appeals, and of a criminal court in India. The examination of this
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, June 24.
[MINUTES.] Lord Grenville
presented a message from his majesty, relative to encreasing the pay of seamen, similar to that presented yesterday to the commons. His lordship said, he thought it wholly unnecessary to enter into any argument upon the subject, as all their lordships must be convinced of the utility and propriety of the measure. He should, therefore, merely move an address to his majesty, concurring in the object of his majesty's message. The address was agreed to, and ordered to be presented to his majesty by the lords with White staves.—The Earl of Warwick rose to make some observations respecting a system of taxation which he had proposed to the late administration. The more he considered that system, the more he was convinced of its efficacy. Under that conviction, he had also delivered it in to his majesty's present ministers. But he did not perceive that they were disposed to act upon it. Should he, however, fail to receive any communication from them respecting their ideas of the proposed plan, he should deem it his duty to submit it to their lordship's consideration.
[ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.] The Earl of Westmoreland>
after referring to the petitions which he had presented against the resolutions intended to be proposed respecting the abolition of the Slave Trade, declared it to be his opinion that the parties whom these resolutions might affect, should be heard by their counsel at the bar previous to the resolutions being proposed.
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Lord Grenville
did not conceive this to be the moment for entering into the examination of evidence. When the petitions were first presented, it was competent then for the noble earl to move that counsel be heard; but as that opportunity had not then been taken to make the motion, he could not allow that such question be now started, and mixed with the question fixed for this day's discussion. He should therefore move the order of the day, for taking into consideration the resolutions upon this subject communicated by the commons, and leave it open for any noble lord to make what objections to it he should deem proper.
The Earl of Westmoreland
said, the resolutions affected such weighty and various interests, that he thought it but justice the parties should be heard by their counsel. He should not, however, press any motion upon the subject.
Lord Grenville
then moved, that the order of the day be read; which was accordingly done: it was for summoning their lordships, for the consideration of the vote communicated by the commons, at a conference, resolving in effect, that the Slave Trade, being contrary to the principles of humanity, justice, and sound policy, they would, early in the next session of parliament, proceed to the consideration of the abolition of the same, in such way, and at what period, as they shall think most expedient, &c. The Resolution being read by the clerk, the noble lord rose, and observed, that the Resolution their lordships had just heard read, was the determinate result of nearly 20 years discussion and inquiry upon the subject. He rejoiced that the topic had been sifted to the bottom. No pretence, or shadow of argument, could now be urged, that had not again and again been publicly discussed, and every particle of objection repeatedly refuted. The time was come, when no need existed of farther inquiry; and that period, when the voice of justice, and the voice of humanity, equally called upon that house to concur in the Resolution voted by the other house of parliament. The Resolution imported, that the African Slave trade was contrary to the principles of humanity, of justice, and of sound policy, As to the first point, could any man in that house, or in the country, he would ask, raise his voice, and, in his mind and conscience, say, that the slave trade was not contrary to humanity? What was the object of the slave trade? To tear men from the bosom of their families, their country, their friends, wives, brothers, children, from
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Lord Hawkesbury
concurred with the noble lord in opinion, that if a trade was carried on, which was contrary to humanity and justice, there could be no question as to its being contrary to sound policy. This however, was not the way in which he viewed this question. It was not upon abstract principles, that the question as to the abolition of the slave trade, ought to be considered, but as to its practical effect, and in this view of the subject, the noble lord had advanced principles in the course of his speech, which he did not venture to sanction in the motion with which he concluded. The same principles upon which the noble lord condemned the slave trade, applied with equal force to the state of slavery itself, but the noble lord would not venture to bring forward any measure founded upon these principles, as applying to the actual
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The Bishop of London
bestowed much praise upon the eloquent speech of the noble lord who had brought this subject forward, agreed entirely in the propriety of the measure now proposed, and expatiated on the injustice, inhumanity, and impolicy of the slave trade. He quoted a variety of authorities from the best books on the subject, and which had been published before it came under parliamentary discussion, front all which he maintained, that the trade ought to be abolished; he maintained also, that the slave trade was not countenanced by any thing in Holy writ, either in the Old or the New Testament. He was a decided friend to the present resolution, as a step
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The Lord Chancellor
declared that he never hitherto had taken any share in the discussion of this subject, while a member of the other house, when his opinion was rather adverse to the measure; but having read the evidence, he had good reason to alter that opinion. He had been in the West Indies some years ago, and had seen all the great plantations in Jamaica, and he declared the condition of the slaves was almost uniformly ameliorated, and they were generally treated with kindness, such as he had known a great family in this country use to their ancient domestics. He also had been an eye witness to the trade carried on on the coast of Africa, and although he could not say in what manner they might have been collected in the interior, yet their treatment on the coast, and during the middle passage, was inhuman to a degree, most shocking! Parents were torn from their children, infants snatched from the breast of their mothers, while the unhappy parents were pinioned down in chains to the bottom of the hold of a Guinea ship, frequently surrounded by famine and death. He then adverted to the case of a policy of insurance tried in the court of king's bench, where the slaves, in hopes of liberty, having attacked the crew, were fired upon, and while some were mortally wounded, others were thrown overboard, a prey to the sharks; while those who remained, were mingled with the dead and dying; and in this case, continued the learned lord, a British jury was called on to say how many were lost by death, how many by the perils of the sea, and thus to indemnify the robber against the loss of his plunder; he therefore asked, was this practice consistent with humanity and ,justice? And as we knew the evil to exist, it was our duty to God, and to our country, which was the morning star that enlightened Europe, and whose boast and glory was to grant liberty and life, and administer humanity and justice to all nations, to remedy that evil; and he had so high an opinion of the planters in those islands, that he was convinced they would go hand in hand with the parliament upon this measure.
The Earl of Westmoreland
congratulated the noble and learned lord upon the new
808
The Bishop of St. Asaph
replied, that however the Mosaic and other laws might have allowed slavery, under certain restrictions, yet there was no authority whatever authorising the slave trade. The state of slavery was an evil degrading to mankind, and though fed with the choicest viands, and always reclining on a bed of roses, the idea to him was abominable; it was inconsistent with justice and humanity, and contrary to the principles of that religion which taught us to promote and diffuse happiness among our fellow creatures. He, therefore, warmly supported the present motion, hoping it would be the forerunner of the general abolition of that practice.
The Earl of Suffolk
made a few observations in favour of the measure.
Lord Holland
considered the arguments, on the other side, wholly misapplied to the question before the house, which was a measure, since he was able to think upon the subject, he always looked upon as inhuman, disgraceful, and degrading to this country; and for these reasons heartily concurred in the motion of his noble friend.
Lord Sidmouth
declared his sentiments in favour of the general principle of the measure, but opposed the present question on the ground, that he could not reconcile it to himself to have it put upon the journals of that house, that any long established
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Earl Stanhope
expressed much surprise at hearing what fell from the noble lord who last spoke; his arguments were paradoxical, nor had he ever heard so whimsical a reason given in so whimsical a way. The question, whether this was just or unjust, could not be doubted, when it was recollected that whole villages were stripped of their women and children, to supply the rapacity of those brutes in the West Indies.
Earl Grosvenor
professed himself a warm friend to the abolition of the slave trade. He lamented that the public feeling had been kept so long from being gratified on this subject, and trusted the present administration would meet with no obstacles in the way of carrying their measure for the abolition early in the next session of parliament.
Earl Fitzwilliam
felt rather alarmed at the consequences the resolutions might produce, but could not help feeling disposed to support them.
Lord Grenville
did not feel it necessary to trouble the house with any reply; but took occasion to observe, that he should this night make another motion for an address to his majesty, praying he would be graciously pleased to consult with other powers towards the accomplishment of the same end, which would afford another opportunity to those who were anxious again to divide upon this favourite question.—The house then divided on the question of concurring in the resolutions, when there appeared, Contents 41; Non-contents 20.— Majory 21. On returning below the bar, we found that Lord Grenville's motion for an address was carried without a division.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, June 24.
[KING'S MESSAGE RELATING TO GREENWICH HOSPITAL] Lord Howick
moved the order of the day for the house going into a committee on his majesty's message of the preceding day. The house having accordingly gone into the said committee, the noble lord stated, that one of the principal objects of his majesty's most gracious message was to recommend to that house, and to assist them in the task of providing for seamen wounded in the service, or when from age they should be unquali-
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812
[GLOBE INSURANCE BILL.] Sir T. Metcalfe
moved the order of the day, for the second reading of the bill for incorporating the Globe Insurance Company.
Lord Castlereagh
put it to the gentlemen on the other side of the house, whether, as this bill was likely to give rise to some discussion, it would not be more desirable to put it off to some future day, to make way for the discussion of a more important measure, which was fixed for this day; or if this bill was to go on, that there should be an understanding in the house, that the other discussion should not be brought on at a late hour.
Lord H. Petty
did not think the discussion of this measure could occupy much time. It was not for him to anticipate what might be the pleasure of the house with respect to calling in the counsel, but he had no difficulty in saying, that if the discussion should be protracted to any length, there would be no objection to put off the other discussion to a more convenient time.—On the question being put, that the bill be now read a second time,
Sir John Anderson
moved an amendment, that the bill be read a second time this day three months, in which he was supported by sir W. Curtis, Mr. Grenfell, and sir C. Price, on the ground that the bill would be an infringement upon the rights of the London and Royal Exchange Insurance Companies.—Mr. Aldm. Combe, lord H. Petty, Mr. Paull, and Mr. Alexander, supported the second reading, on the ground that a competition was favourable to the public; that the trade and shipping of the country had been vastly increased since the charters had been granted to the companies alluded to; and that other corporations were necessary to meet the accumulation of business, and that this company proposed to contribute 100,000l. to the public, and to invest a capital of 1,000,000l. in the public funds, and without requiring any exclusive privileges. Mr. Paull, too, stated, that above seven millions annually were insured in India for want of corporations in England for effecting insurance, more confidence being placed in companies, than in individual or private insurers.—Mr. Perceval, Mr. Shaw Le Fevre, and Mr. W. Smith, were of opinion that counsel should be heard on the bill, and the matter of the petitions against it, before the house should come to any decision. A division then took place, For the Amendment 20; Against it 74.—Majority 54.—On the motion that
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[TRAINING BILL.] Mr. Windham
moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the report of the committee on the Training bill.
Lord Castlereagh
was extremely anxious, before this question was further gone into, to come to an understanding on a point which was most material. It was very currently reported, that the only object of the right hon. secretary in the present bill, was to incorporate his own ideas with the act already in existence; but when it should have passed, to have it, like that act, un-executed, unless some particular emergency should arise. If that were true, he should have little objection to allow the bill to proceed. It was certainly most material to the discussion, to be informed whether the bill, if passed as it now stood, was to be executed or not.
Mr. Windham
said, this was the first time he had heard of any doubt that the measure was to be carried into execution. It was then ordered that the report be now taken into further consideration. It was then moved that the bill be recommitted.
Colonel Bagwell
rose for the purpose of opposing the bill. He was willing to do justice to the purity of the intentions of the right hon. gent.; but he would contend, that he had been most unfortunate in the application of the means which the country had placed in his hands and those of his colleagues. Every measure he had proposed, so far from increasing our force, had an opposite tendency. One of the first of his measures was to get rid of an act which produced annually 18,000 men in the army; and for what?—for an experiment. The plan introduced appeared to him to be principally for the purpose of counteracting the excellent system laid down by the former government, and to manifest his adherence to opinions expressed, he would not say in a moment of factious, but certainly of pointed opposition. With respect to the constitutionality of the measure, he did not think that the ingenuity of the right hon. proposer, great as it was known to be, would be able to establish that. But he would be glad to learn how the principles of the constitution could be said to be preserved, if so large a proportion of the population were to be subjected to the opera-
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Sir James Pulteney
stated; that he had the greatest confidence in the superiority of a regular army, but it was impossible this country could be defended without having recourse to some other species of force. Our population was not so extensive, or our people so unemployed, as to allow us to raise a large army upon the spur of the occasion. Periods might arrive, when it would be necessary a very large proportion of the people should be ready trained and armed; at the beginning of a war, for instance, when the strength of the enemy's navy might be greater than it was in time of peace, and when the amount of our regular army might be less than it was in time of war. The French army, after the misfortune of general Mack, would never have reached Vienna, if there had been an armed population to obstruct their passage. It was asked, why have recourse to this measure of a general training, when you have a volunteer force ready drilled to your hands? The volunteers, he would admit, were entitled to great praise. He admired their zeal, and in many instances he approved of their discipline; but he would no more trust to voluntary services for the defence of a nation, than he would to voluntary contributions for the support of its finances. He would not enter much into the bill; the execution of it might be attended with difficulties but he was so attached to the principle, that he would give it a fair trial. There were, however, two or three points on which he wished to say a few words: and, first, as to the unconstitutionality of the measure. He could perceive nothing unconstitutional in that exercise of the prerogative vested in his majesty, or in subjecting a part of the population to temporary inconveniences, to avoid greater calamities. The amount of the number of persons to be trained, was, he understood, to be 200,000 men; a force certainly equal to encounter any danger by which this kingdom would ever be menaced. It was in this way that the French armies were first formed, by incorporating the national guards with the regulars. There was
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Mr. Spencer Stanhope
said, that if the bill before the committee was meant to be acted upon, he would not hesitate to pronounce it one of the most obnoxious and oppressive measures that had ever received the sanction of that house. The plan was nothing less than to call out every fourth man in the kingdom capable of bearing arms. According to the old military lists, the persons of that description amounted to 840,000. This was three years ago. The militia service took off 40,000 of them. The volunteers took off about 240,000 more; so that they had to raise 200,000 men out of the residue, not amounting to more than 600,000. Where, he would ask, was the necessity for this most obnoxious measure? Were there not volunteers more than he meant to call out by this bill? The people of England would be led, but they would not be driven, and this was driving them with a vengeance. The expence was not the least of his objections to the bill. The shilling a day would, for the 24 days training, amount to 240,000l. other expences also would be necessary; depots must be constructed, powder and shot purchased, arms provided, officers paid. The etceteras, he was convinced would amount to as much more. This measure professed only to apply to England. What was to be done for Scotland and Ireland? Was the former in such a state of security, that the right hon. secretary did not chuse to meddle with it, and was the latter in that state that he was afraid to meddle with it? He also objected to the bill, because the men who were to be called out under it were not to be under the command of the gentlemen of landed property, their neighbours, and the persons to whom they naturally looked up. As to the popularity of the measure, he could not suppose that a bill which gave
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Sir W. Milner
could not think the bill was likely to produce so much expence as had been stated. The volunteer system had cost a great deal of money; and in the town which he had the honour to represent, no less than 18,000l. had been subscribed for the volunteers. Although similar exertions had been made all over the country, yet the volunteers had fallen off very much in numbers. He had attended most of the reviews in the neighbourhood of London; and the London volunteers, in the last review before his majesty, had entirely disgraced the appearance that was expected, as no more than 12 or 1500 attended, instead of 10,000 who had attended on a former occasion. He did not conceive that the present bill would at all diminish the number of volunteers; if he did, the measure ,should not have his support.
Lords Castlereagh
concurred with an hon. gent. who had spoken early in the debate (Col. Bagwell), in his surprise, that on that night, which was generally understood to be fixed for the final discussion of this bill, the right hon. gent. who had brought it in had not thought proper to explain more fully the nature of his plan. This was more particularly to be lamented, as this project was not only to be made the law of the land, but as it was immediately to be put into execution. When the right hon. gent. made his opening speech upon his intended military plans, early in the session, there was such a contrariety of opinion respecting his intentions, that it required all the abilities of the right hon. gent. and his colleagues, to make it at all understood. As they had hitherto been able to explain it but very imperfectly, it was not too much to have expected on that night, that the right hon. secretary would have condescended to open his new plan fully and explicitly. Whatever might be his opinion of the bill itself, it was not his intention to oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair, in order that it might be taken into consideration. He felt extremely reluctant in appearing to give any opposition to measures which his majesty's ministers declared to be, in their judgment, necessary for the security of the coun-
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822
Mr. H. Martin
could not conceive how it could with justice be called a wild theory, to discipline for 28 days in the year, those persons who might be called upon to assist the regular army in the event of an invasion. It was too much to call every variation from the established rules, a mere experiment. Every amendment of old acts of parliament, every new act of parliament, might with equal justice be called an experiment. One hon. gent. (Mr. S. Stanhope) seemed to consider that it was a great breach of faith, that those who had subscribed for volunteers should be liable to serve themselves. The present bill, however, would not go farther than the old militia laws, or oblige any one to serve that was past the age of 45. The fines upon the parishes were by no means as severe as under the militia laws, and would only ope-
823
Mr. Matthews
commented on the language uniformly used by the right hon. author of this bill against the volunteers. That language, while the right hon. gent. was in opposition, might be overlooked, as the sentiments of an individual. But now that he might be conceived to speak with the voice of government, his language must, and had created alarm and discontent among that gallant body. In any services which the volunteers might render to the right hon. gent. and his colleagues after such language, well might they exclaim in the terms of the insulted Jew, in the Merchant of Venice, "You spit on me," &c. The plan of the right hon. gent. towards the volunteers must, in his judgment, tend ultimately to disband the volunteer corps. For such as were of the higher orders he would disgust by depriving them of their rank, such as were proud he would offend by talking lightly of their services and efficiency, and such as were of force he would disable from serving by depriving them of their pay.
Sir W. Young
contended that the measure was perfectly constitutional, as every one must be convinced, who had read the history of the country. He looked on this as a permanent measure, and in that view he thought that the soldiers who would be discharged under a former bill, would be exceedingly useful in being officers for this force. This nation ought not to trust for its defence merely to the opinions and inclinations of individuals, as it must in a great measure do, if the volunteer system alone was depended on for that purpose. Whoever sat on the throne of France after Bonaparte, though a Bourbon, must act and conduct himself as the head of a great military people, and there was no way of meeting this danger from our enemies, but by rendering this nation in some degree military, through the great mass of its population. He did not disapprove of drilling on Sundays, as he thought patriotism a religious duty. It was to the great attention paid to the training of the population, even from the earliest youth of the people, that the recovery of Jersey was owing, after
824
Mr. W. Smith
was of opinion that the volunteers had saved the country, but that the system with respect to them was neither permanent nor intended to be so, and he saw no reason why persons in that situation should be offended, because their assistance was not sought in a way not suited to the nature of a temporary institution. A most singular objection had been made to this new project, because it had not this defect, and was permanent in its application: to him this was not an objection, but a motive for the adoption of it; and the bill enabled his majesty to draw from the robust part of the population, 2 or 300,000 men armed for the national defence. The plan of the military service which was concurrent with this measure, by throwing annually 5 or 10,000 disciplined men into the general mass of the inhabitants subject to this service, would provide the peasantry with instructors, who equally with their knowledge and their example, would contribute to give spirit and method to those levies. By the military education this bill was calculated to give to all orders of the community, in succession, these islands would not only be rendered impregnable, but the measure would preclude every attempt on our shores, by convincing the enemy, that against an armed nation all his efforts must be ineffectual. We should then hear no more of flottillas, no more of invasions; the enemy would say, whatever success we may have in attacking her colonial possessions, Britain is herself invulnerable. What pretence could the noble lord (Castlereagh) have to say that this bill would be afflicting to this country? Could it be afflicting for men in habits of corporeal exertion daily to be collected 28 days in the year, for the purpose of training them to military duty? parliament designed to give no cause of disgust to the volunteers: it only wished to avoid an expence inconsistent with the welfare of the country, and to provide other means not destructive of, but auxiliary to, the system under which arms were put into their hands.
Mr. Perceval
had waited for a long time to see whether the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) would have given any explanation of his bill, that we might know whether
825
Mr. Paull
spoke to order, and said it was irregular to quote from a former debate.
The Speaker
said, he had always understood that the strict rule of the house was, not to admit such citation of words used in a former debate; but at the same time, this rigid adherence was sometimes not required.
Mr. Paull.
I say the hon. and learned gent. is manifestly disorderly.
The Speaker.
When the speaker delivers an opinion, in which the house acquiesces, there is an end of the question.
Mr. Bathurst.
I must call the attention of the house to the respect due to the chair. The hon. gent. is young, and he may not be aware that there is no fresh appeal after the speaker has laid down the rule, and the house has acquiesced in it.
Mr. Perceval
said his object was merely to justify the epithet he had applied, and he thought the interference of the hon. gent. wholly unnecessary. It would however be recollected, that the volunteers had been denominated a depository of panic, of which an experienced officer would be glad to be disencumbered, as a prudent wrestler would of the unnecessary raiment by which his muscular action was impeded. He had intimated that no sufficient elucidation had been afforded. Was this complaint well founded? There were 300,000 volunteers, and 200,000 men were to be raised under this act. Yet if the former were to be disbanded, only 200,000 would remain. Was
826
Mr. Bathurst
was surprised at his hon. and learned friend, when he talked of this bill as being opposed to our free constitution, and liberty and justice, and so forth; and not less at the opposition given to this bill by those who supported a former one of the same tendency. If this bill were an infringment on the rights of the people, that was so also; if this were a refuge for the volunteers, that likewise possessed the same character. It was no disparagement to so numerous a body as the volunteers, to suppose that they were not all animated by the ardour of patriotism; every man who had at all attended to the philosophy of the human mind, must be convinced of the variety of feelings by which it was actuated; and to provide against any defection in this useful institution, the new project now recommended was designed. It had been intimated, that there was no necessity for the bill, because the immediate danger was over. Who could look to the posture of Europe at this day, and say the times were not perilous? Was the calamity of the hour only to be regarded, and were we not to look to future exigencies? He admitted that the volunteers had been the salvation of the country, but was no diversion of the accumulated power of France against these islands now to be apprehended? Were we wholly insensible to the vast augmentation of the power of the enemy? Was Bonaparte so diligently employed in making kings, that he never turned his thoughts to unmaking kings? We used to think the wooden walls of old England were sufficient for her defence; wisdom had exploded this prejudice, and we were now to resort to additional means of protection. With this view the object of the bill was not to reduce the volunteers, but to do what was subsidiary to that resource. It was the grossest misconstruction both of the intentions of the right hon. gent. and of parliament, to con-
827
828
Mr. Secretary Windham
said, that one of the principal imputations of blame to him urged by the opposers of this measure was, that he had not introduced it to the house or commenced the debate with a speech explanatory of his own views of it at large; but to do this, he must have repeated every speech he had made upon this topic in the course of the last 3 years. Another objection urged against him was, that he had on various occasions undervalued, and treated with contempt, the volunteers, and that this bill was calculated to supersede them altogether. The first part of the charge he utterly denied, and declared it was his wish, often repeated, that the volunteers should continue: and this bill so far from being calculated, or intended to supersede the volunteer system, had for its object merely to render the volunteers that which they were originally in-
829
Mr. Canning
reserved to himself the privilege of delivering his sentiments upon its principle, upon the report of the committee.—The question was then put, and carried for the committal of the bill, without a division. The house accordingly went into a committee, and the chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Thursday.—Adjourned at 2 o'clock on Wednesday morning.
830
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, June 25.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA—FIRST CHARGE AGAINST MARQUIS WELLESLEY.] Mr. Paull
moved, that as the evidence of the first charge against marquis Wellesley was on the table, the charge should be printed, in order to afford an opportunity of comparing it with the charge.
Sir A. Wellesley
opposed the motion, and stated what the house had already done on the subject. The first resolution of the house for printing it had been rescinded next day. The reasons were, that no evidence was then before the house, and also that a charge of such a nature should not be eventually circulated through the country, before the house could take it into consideration. It did not appear that the house would be able to enter into this charge during the present session. He could not, therefore, see any benefit that would arise from printing it, while the character of his noble relative might, in the mean time, receive essential injury.
Lord A. Hamilton
contended that the house was now in a different situation from what it had been formerly in, when it resolved that the charge should not be printed. It seemed then to be agreed, that the proper time for printing it would be when the evidence was before the house; and now that the principal papers were before them, it was proper that they should be fully enabled to compare the evidence with the charge.
Mr. Rose
was of opinion, that the house would derive no advantage from printing the charge at present, while the character of the noble lord might receive no trifling injury from its circulation during the recess of parliament.
The Marquis of Douglas
supported the motion, and took that opportunity of declaring that he saw nothing in the charge but what was supported by the papers before the house.
Mr. Windham
asked what was the reason for printing papers at all? Was it not for the use of the members? And the more numerous and complicated these papers were, it became the more important that the charge which they were produced to support, should also be printed, that the house might be fully able to compare the one with the other. It had been said, that false impressions would be produced; but he did not see much danger of that. A great deal of evidence had already been
831
Lord Castlereagh
saw no possible benefit to any one from printing the charge. It would be a source of much hardship to the noble lord to have it printed. Much of the evidence for the defence was not yet before the house.
Lord H. Petty
thought no inconvience or prejudice could arise to the noble marquis from printing the charge. There was much more reason for not printing the evidence than for not printing the charge when the evidence was printed. The probable delay of the consideration of the chore till the next session was rather a reason for printing it, that gentlemen might make themselves fully masters of the case.
Mr. Bankes
thought the charge ought not to be printed while the evidence was so imperfectly before the house, and when the charge could not be considered till next session.
Mr. Grant
observed, that the eyes of India, and of the empire in general, were fixed upon the conduct of the house in this business. With regard to the objections urged against the publication of
ex parte
ex parte
Dr. Laurence
considered the grounds of opposition to this motion as of a most extraordinary nature. The charges against Mr. Hastings had, it was well known, remained on the table and were printed above 18 months before they were taken into consideration; and yet it was now argued, that the charge before the house should not be printed until the shortest possible time before the house should be called on to decide upon it. But no one attempted to argue in this way excepting those who, he had no hesitation in saying, were the avowed friends, supporters, and advocates of the noble marquis; and would the house allow itself to be dictated to by them? If so, there must, of course, be an end to all hopes of justice in the case. He appre-
832
Mr. W. Pole
pledged himself to this fact, that not one word had been written or printed by marquis Wellesley or his friends relating to the first charge against that noble lord.
Mr. Sheridan
thought the charge ought not to be printed until all the evidence should be before the house. Nor would this delay be attended with any inconvenience, for he presumed that all the evidence required on both sides had already been moved for. At any rate the printing need not be deferred till the next session, for on the very last day of the session an order might be made to print and deliver papers to the members even during the time that the house was not sitting.
Mr. Paull
was at a loss to conceive why the friends of marquis Wellesley were so averse from allowing this charge to be printed, when in fact there was not a single allegation contained in it which was not also contained in a paper above 10,000 copies of which had been circulated by order of the court of East India proprietors. Whatever might be the decision of the house on the subject of marquis Wellesley's conduct, a decision had taken place elsewhere. In a court of proprietors a motion, which was stated at the time by the friends of the noble lord to convey censure on him, was carried by a majority of 960 to 170, and of 23 directors to 1!
Mr. Johnstone
recommended the hon. gent. who had just sat down to agree to the proposition of the right hon. gent. who had preceded him. The object of the motion which he had made in the court of East India proprietors, and to which the hon. gent. had alluded, was not to criminate marquis Wellesley, but simply to express his sense of the many and laudable conduct of time Court of Directors.
Lord Folkestone
urged the immediate printing of the charge.
Lord H. Petty
finding that the sense of the house seemed to be, that it would be more fair to defer printing the charge until the whole of the evidence was before them, thought it most advisable to move the previous question; which was agreed to.
833
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, June 26.
[MINUTES.]
The judges attended in pursuance of the order of the house, to deliver their opinions on questions put to them, relative to the appeal, Lucina v. Crawford. This case arose out of a policy of assurance, effected by the commissioners for the management of Dutch property, detained under certain circumstances in the year 1795, on certain detained Dutch vessels and cargoes, on their voyage from st. Helena to this country, some of which vessels were afterwards lost, and an action brought by the commissioners on the policy to recover an average loss. The cause, after being litigated in the courts below, was brought up by appeal to the house of lords, where, after counsel had been heard on both sides, 8 questions were propounded to the judges for their opinion on points of law arising out of the case. The main question, to which the others were in some measure subordinate, was, in substance, whether the commissioners had a legal interest in the property, on its voyage from st. Helena, so as to enable them to effect a legal and valid policy of insurance thereon. Upon these questions the judges commenced the delivery of their opinions
seriatim
Lord Walsingham
then moved to postpone the further delivery of the opinions of the judges till Monday next, which was agreed to.
[INDIA—RECAL OF SIR G. BARLOW.] Lord Melville
rose and stated that he came down to the house with the intention of putting a question to a noble lord (Minto) had he seen him in his
834
[TEMPLE-BAR AND SNOW-HILL LOTTERY BILL.]
On the question for the third reading of the Temple-Bar and Hill Lottery bill,
The Duke of Norfolk rose
and expressed a variety of objections against the measure. The bill in question arose out of circumstances which had nothing to do with the real principle of a lottery, and would go to extend an injurious spirit of gaining among all ranks of people. There were now no less than three regular state lotteries, which the exigencies of the state, and the financial benefits derived therefrom, were grounds for tolerating. There were, however, other grounds, but of rare occurrence, on which he deemed an expedient of the kind not objectionable. He meant, in cases of rare or costly works of art or ingenuity, where the parties were not able to procure a sale or market for them, save by an extraordinary or peculiar measure of this nature. But, to enable persons who speculated in buildings, and which they might not be able, from a variety of circumstances, to dispose of, to come forward to parliament for a lottery to assist them, was what he could not approve of. The case of Mr. alderman Boydell's lottery being one upon the rarely-occurring principle he had alluded to,he offered no objection to it, but the present measure was one of a very different description. His grace then adverted to some points which had transpired in the committee on the bill; and proceeded to observe, that the present bill would almost to a certainty, generate a future application for another lottery, inasmuch as it was intended
835
The Lord Chancellor
much as her espected whatever fell from his noble friend, certainly differed from him materially, on the present occasion: the lottery proposed by the present bill, was undoubtedly one of that description, in which the lower orders of the people could not venture, and therefore it was impossible it could operate injuriously with respect to them. On the contrary, those who would speculate in the lottery proposed by the bill in question, or were persons of some property or substance, engaged in some beneficial branch of trade, With respect to what the noble duke observed relative to lotteries in favour of the disposal of rare and costly works of art, he cordially agreed with his noble friend. In the case of the Boydells, for instance, in the then state of things, there was no hope whatever for a mart or issue for such articles, particularly upon the continent, where many of the prints or pictures used to be disposed of at the great fairs. As things then stood, they might as well expect to sell so many cobwebs, as pictures. It was, therefore, necessary to have recourse to the expedient of a lottery to enable the worthy proprietors to dispose of the valuable articles alluded to. With respect to the case of Bowyer's history of England, the principle was the same. The history of such a country as England must be valuable; and to have that history illustrated in the splendid manner of the history alluded to, highly desirable. To a certain extent, this principle certainly applied to buildings, in cases where great improvements, or ornamental decorations were included. In the present case both these estimable objects were united. The speculation was entered into with such a share and mixture of public spirit, as did the projectors great credit. Much of what the parties had to complain of arose from sudden breaking out of the war, by which the prices of all materials were greatly increased, and those of labour in a still higher proportion; so that it was impossible the parties could go on without plunging into gulph of bankruptcy. On these grounds, he submitted
836
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, June 26.
[MINUTES.] Mr S. Le Fevre
presented three petitions from the inhabitants of Brighthelmstone, in favour of the bill for constructing a Jetty or Jetties near that town.—Mr. Tierney presented a petition from the Butchers and Farmers, within fifteen miles of the metropolis, against the Hide and Skin Regulation bill.—On the motion of sir J. Newport the Irish Revenue Jurisdiction bill was read a 2d time.—On the motion of sir J. Newport the Irish Distillery bill went through a committee.—On the motion of the lord Advocate of Scotland, it was ordered that the house should to-morrow resolve itself into a committee on the report of the committee of the 21st of July 1803, relative to the Bell Rock Lighthouse in Scotland.—Mr. Grenfell presented a petition from the London Assurance Company against the bill for the incorporation of the GlobeInsurance Company. Referred to the committee on the said bill.—Mr. Calcraft obtained leave to bring in a bill to make compensation to the proprietors of certain lands at Chatham, Warley Common, and Woolwich,
837
[VOLUNTEERS.] Mr. C. Wynne
said, that in consequence of something he had heard was mentioned in the house yesterday, he thought it necessary to state, that no communication whatever was made to the volunteers from the executive government since the 1st of Feb. last, and that there existed no disposition whatever to withhold any information that might be desired upon the subject. Every paper that had been ordered, was already before the house; and if the hon. gent. who alluded to this subject yesterday, thought proper to move for others, they would, if forthcoming, be immediately granted. Here the hon. member read the papers relative to the volunteers, which had been written from the Secretary of State's Office since Jan. last; and expressed his readiness to accede to any motion that might be made for their production. The hon. member took notice of the order for regular returns from the several Volunteer corps, with which order the corps under the command of the hon. gent. had not complied; and before the hon. gent. had ventured to charge a public officer with neglect of duty, he ought to have taken care, if not to perform his own public duty, at least to be better informed as to the attention of others to that point.
Mr. Bastard
disclaimed the intention of imputing any neglect to the officer to whom the hon. member alluded; the hon. gent, would be glad to have all the volunteers on the same establishment, and therefore did not object to the proposed change. As to the returns which ought to have been made from the corps under his command, he had to state that although the commander of 5 or 6 battalions, he left altogether the drawing of pay and the making of returns to the commanders of the several battalions, he be-
838
Mr. Bastard
expressed a hope that the volunteers would know ere long, upon what footing they were to stand, as much confusion resulted from the uncertainty in which they were at present placed. Indeed the evil was such, that he could with difficulty contrive to keep quiet the corps over which he had any influence, until their fate should be known. Perhaps this uneasiness might have arisen from misrepresentation, but certainly the regulations respecting the volunteers ought to be announced with all convenient expedition.
Mr. C. Wynne
was surprised that any such uncertainty should prevail, as the hon. gent. alluded to. For it was already very explicitly declared, that among that great majority of the volunteers, who were on the August allowance, no change whatever had taken place, excepting the reduction of the drill serjeant's pay. And as to those on the June allowances, the intended change was very fully understood. With regard to the other point in the hon. gents'. speech upon the subject of the future regulations of the volunteers, they were of course to act upon the regulations at present existing, until the new regulations were communicated to them. These new regulations were already in a very forward train, and would be sent to the several corps as soon as they could be prepared. Upon the conduct of the hon. gent. or his corps, he meant to make no other remark than was warranted by fact. As to drawing for pay, he could not say that the hon. gents'. sub-commanders had neglected their duty upon that point, nor, indeed, did he ever hear of any volunteer officers who were at all remiss in drawing for pay, but he was enabled to state from papers he held in his hand, that notwithstanding the utmost endeavours on the part of the secretary of state's office, and frequent ex-
839
Mr. Long
asked the hon. gen. if he was competent to answer, whether it way meant that if any of the corps upon the August allowance should be reduced it number, they would be at liberty to admit new members, under the same regulations as formerly?
Mr. C. Wynne
answered, certainly, until fresh regulations should be made out.—The motion was then agreed to
[BANKRUPT LAWS BILL.] The Solicitor General rose
pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to alter and amend the Bankrupt Laws, or rather, he said, more correctly speaking, to remove certain defects in those laws. It was by no means his intention to attempt the amendment of the whole of the law upon this subject, but to remove certain great defects, the mischievous consequences of which were every day observed, and most sensibly felt by all Who had any opportunity of considering the question. His object at present simply was, to introduce some regulations which were obviously necessary. According to the existing Bankrupt law, any acts done or debts contracted by the bankrupt, in the course of the period which intervened between the committal of the act of bankruptcy and the taking out of the commission, Was, as it affected the creditors, Completely annulled. The evils resulting from this provision were of the most serious nature; for it often happened that a bankrupt had sold a real estate, and, received the money for it, after the committal of an act of bankruptcy, and yet, unless according to the act of the 21st Of James. 1. such sale had taken place 5 years before the commission was taken out, the purchaser was deprived of his purchase, and it became the property of the assignees of the bankrupt. Another evil resulting from the present law was, that if money was lent to bankrupt at any time during the period just referred to, such money was liable to be distributed among the creditors, and the lender was not, any more than the purchaser of the estate, allowed even the small consolation of receiving a dividend, or any portion of his money from the bankrupt's effects, nor had he,
840
bona fide
841
bona fide
842
[IRISH POOR RELIEF BILL.] Sir J. Newport
brought in this bill, and moved that it be read a first time.
Mr. Bagwell
thanked the right hon. baronet for his perseverance in this bill, but apprehended there was a point or two in which they might have some difference of opinion. As the law was already, grand juries had the power to raise 400l. On counties, and 200l. on cities; the consequence of which was, that in those counties which had cities, there were houses of industry; supported by the aggregate sum; but, in those counties which had no cities, the contrary was the case; and he, therefore, hoped, that power would be given to the grand juries of the latter, to make up that deficiency, as many of the counties so situated in Ireland, possessed more opulence than some.of those which had cities. From the time that this assessment of 400l. upon counties was first granted for the poor, it had never been increased, although for other purposes, rates had been made to the amount of 30;000l. though thee people themselves
843
Mr. Foster
considered this as a law professing to assist that of 1772, for taking up idle persons, and obliging them to work. That act was only carried into execution in Dublin, where there was now the sum of 20,000l. paid annually for the support of vagabonds; and Dublin being considered as the centre, all the other counties entirely neglected them. If the bill was, as he supposed, intended to compel grand juries to extend their powers in this respect, he should vote against it, and particularly, as he thought it by far too late in the session to press a measure which had before been so frequently agitated and rejected in the Irish parliament.
Mr. Bagwell
said, there were houses of industry in other places besides Dublin, but that they were supported by private subscription.
Sir J. Newport
explained, that if the right hon. gent, attended to the bill, he would find it expressly provided, that one half of the houses should be appropriated to the correction of vagabonds and sturdy beggars, and the other half to the relief of the needy poor. The right hon. gent. was also wrong in supposing that this was the first time of levies for this purpose being made compulsory upon grand juries, of which he quoted two or three instances, and the only compulsion was on the counties which had houses of industry, to maintain them. As to the charge of bringing it forward so late in the session, he appealed to the recollection of members, whether he had not made the same proposition last year. In the early part of this session, he was, for a time, kept out of his seat, by what he must consider a very improper proceeding. Since then, his time had been fully occupied, as would be proved by the great mass of business he had already brought forward; and, late as it might be, he hoped he should now be permitted to go on with a measure, which he felt to be so essential to the welfare of his country.
Mr. Alexander
said, that however disagreeable it might be to oppose a measure,
844
Mr. Parnell
said, it was impossible to travel over the high roads in Ireland, without being Sensible of the necessity of this measure; and. as to the objection of its falling heavy on the land owners; they were a description of persons in that country best able to afford it.—The bill was then read a first time.
[TRAINING BILL.]
On the motion of Mr. Secretary Windham, the house went into a. committee on this bill. That clause being read which confined the operation of the bill to England
Mr. Yorke
rose to express his opinion of it. He approved of the general principle of the bill, as far as it was similar to that which he had the honour to bring in on a former occasion, and thought it, in the present state of Europe, of essential importance to the safety of the country. United with the militia, the men levied under this bill would form a second line to. the regulars, should the enemy effect a landing. So much for the general principle of the bill; but it must undergo considerable modification, before it could meet his entire approbation. He should afterwards shew, that, instead of confirming, it abridged the royal prerogative; but he should at present confine himself to that clause which limited its operation to South Britain. Now he could see no reason why Scotland should not be subject to the same burden, and possessed of the same means of defence with England. He would therefore propose, that the words "Great Britain " should be inserted instead of "England."
Mr. Secretary Windham
acknowledged, that there was much weight in what the hon. member had observed, and that all must be agreed in distributing the burden and defence as equally as possible. But he should state the reasons which induced him to confine the present operation of the bill to England. In the first place, to a great
845
Sir James Pulteney
saw no reason why the provisions of the bill should not extend to Scotland. It might not apply to the highlands; but why not extend it to the Lowlands, which was the more populous part of the country, and that part too which was most exposed to attacks from the opposite coast. He allowed the excellence of the volunteers in that country, but it was to be considered, that on account of the distance from the capital, there was but a small regular force kept there, and therefore it ought to have the advantage of every other mode of defence. Whether or not the volunteers would be diminished, he should not say, but he hoped that, whether the provisions of the bill were to be applied to Scotland this year or not, they would be afterwards applied to it.
Mr. Perceval
observed, as to the point of the bill's not being applicable to Scotland, that the provisions of the bill of 1803 had, in fact, extended to that. country. The reasons given for not extending this
846
Colonel Wood
observed, that the militia laws were new in Scotland, and had at first occasioned considerable dissatisfaction there. He thought, therefore, that it would be better to wait for another year, before the principle of this bill should be extended to Scotland.
Mr. Calcraft
said, that his reason for not wishing to extend the provisions of the bill to Scotland, in the first instance, was, that the experiment might not be tried on too great a surface, but that it ought to be confined to the country were it was most applicable. As to the act of 1803, it was to be considered that it had not been carried into effect; and it was questionable whether, at the time it was brought in, it was intended to be carried into effect.
Mr. Bastard
contended, that whatever might have fallen from the hon. secretary, the volunteers of England were not one jot behind those of Scotland either in discipline or in zeal. Besides, there was no certainty whatever of raising men under the present bill. It was in fact a money bill, since upon paying a fine of 5l. any man might be exempted from its operation;
847
Mr. Secretary Windham
observed, that gentleman argued as if he had said that the lateness of the session precluded him from doing what he would otherwise have done. He had said no such thing, for though this might be a motive for the house to oppose the amendment, he allowed that it was no justification of ministers. But he had said, that at whatever time the measure might have been brought forward it ought not to apply, in the first instance, to Scotland. As to the general principle of applying to one part what was not applied to another, the gentlemen on the other side ought to think of their own practice, and not insist on the principle of equality too broadly, because in that view Ireland also ought to be included. There night be reasons why the bill should not apply to Scotland for two or three years. Perhaps it might never apply, although he rather thought that it might some time hence. The militia ballot too, was in force in Scotland, and this would be a motive for the volunteers to continue in their corps. As the situation of Scotland was not so favourable to this bill, we might, in applying it, also lose the good will of the people.
Lord Castlereagh
said, that the right hon. gent's arguments did not appear at all satisfactory to his mind. If he wished to make an experiment merely, he should recommend it to him to try it on a. much narrower scale, and to confine, for the present, this boon of his to the county of Norfolk with which he was best acquainted. As to Ireland, no argument whatever could be founded on its not being proper to apply the bill to that country, in favour of the exemption, of Scotland. The state
848
Mr. Whitbread
contended that this bill was totally different from the parish bill, in respect of fines, for the people were fined so enormously, that they could not pay, for not doing what they could not by any possibility perform. There were few labourers who would not choose rather to he trained 24 days, with Is. a-day, than to pay 5l. If gentlemen went on a principle of equality, the bill ought to extend to Ireland; there were reasons against this, and so there were for extending it to Scotland. He was of opinion that none of the volunteers of Scotland would withdraw themselves, on account of being deprived of the addition. I allowance.
Mr. Bankes
observed, that he had never heard a measure supported on such slender grounds, or by so little good sense. The bill was to be considered both in the light of a benefit and a burden, and he could see no reason for confining its effects to one part of the country. With regard to the most extensive and populous part of Scotland, whatever was applicable to England was also applicable to Scotland. As to the bill being a matter of experiment, he would ask, was a small surface selected, when it was proposed to extend the experiment to all England? and why should England alone be selected for this experiment, which, it not found to answer, was to be withdrawn, after the feelings of Englishmen had been sported with? Were we so vile and contemptible as to be called upon to bear this burden alone? From all he had heard of the volunteers of Scotland he was disposed to speak of them with respect, but it gave him pain to listen to the invidious and unfair comparison that had been made by a right hon. gent. this night. He would ask him, what he had to complain of as to the zeal or discipline of the volunteers of England? On the whole he thought, that Scotland, where the great body of the people had the same
849
Colonel Eyre
considered, that for a permanent military arrangement, there was too much of severity in this system. The people of England were ready to bear those hardships which appeared necessary, but not those burdens for which they could see no necessity. When there was a pressing danger, the volunteers appeared sufficient to meet it; and if there was any relaxation in their discipline, or deficiency in their numbers at the present time, it was merely because the danger was less urgent.
Mr. C. Wynne
thought the provisions of the bill not applicable to Scotland at present. When it was now argued that this bill, by inflicting a fine, imposed a great burden on the people of England, he must beg leave to remind the right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke) who brought in the other bill, that that was supported merely by arguments on what was called the undoubted prerogative of the crown, and that there were no means given of escaping its operation even upon the payment of a fine. It must, therefore, evidently appear that the former bill was a greater burden imposed upon the people of England. An hon. gent. was mistaken who supposed, that because the fines were remitted which were due in consequence of the parish bill, that, therefore, the fines must be remitted which would become due under this bill. The reason that the fines were remitted to the parishes on the former bill was, that it was conceived unjust that they should be fined for not raising men, when it was impossible that they could have raised them-Nobody, however, would say, that there was any impossibility to prevent the service of those who should be balloted under the present bill.
Lord Binning
thought, that whatever there was of good or of evil in the present bill, should be extended as well to Scotland as to England. He did not like a gratuitous and unnecessary distinction be-
850
Colonel Matthews
was of opinion, that the experiment would completely fail, and therefore, it was not of much consequence on what scale it was tried.
Mr. Huskisson
perceived a great inconsistency in the arguments of the supporters of the bill. At one time, they spoke of it as an experiment, which, in another year, might be extended to Scotland; and, at another time, they spoke of it as inapplicable to Scotland, on account of the smallness of its population. This last objection had no sort of connection with the former; for whether the experiment succeeded in England, or whether it failed, the mountains of Scotland would not disappear and the Highlands would remain just as they were. As to the argument of freeing Scotland from the burden on account of the number of the volunteer corps, he must observe, that the more volunteer corps were scattered over the country, the less would be the pressure. If there were fewer corps in England, of course it was more difficult for men to escape the operation of this act, by entering into them, as men could not in every part of the country find a volunteer corps to join. There was another argument which had been stated, but which he could by no means assent to. The mover of the bill supposed that there was great dissatisfaction in Scotland about the militia. He would confidently assert, that, although there might have been some ferment in 1797, when the militia was first introduced in Scotland, yet, at the present day, there was no dissatisfaction upon that subject.
Mr. Calvert
thought that the great advantage would be rather in the enrolling
851
Mr. Secretary Windham
said it appeared to him that it was a serious objection to bringing on a measure which would affect Scotland so much at a period when a great number of the Scotch members had gone home and were at such a distance that it could not be expected they would return to be present at the discussion. He could not allow that the fine proposed was any burden at all, as it was only a commutation for a duty which it was allowed by every body that the country had a right to call for. If this duty were performed, there would be no fine, and if any man wished to exempt himself from performing this duty by paying the fine, he certainly could have nothing to complain of. If he had not proposed a greater fine, the reason was that he really hoped that the bill would be efficient, and that a number of men, even of a better description (to whom the shilling a day would be no object), would by their personal service, set an, example to their neighbours, and show that they conceived it no disgrace to come forward and receive that degree of instruction which would be necessary to enable them to defend their country if it should be invaded. In describing the awkwardness of serving personally, an hon. gent. (Mr. S. Stanhope) had rather clumsily expressed himself on a former night when the spoke of the embarrassing situation of a man standing in the ranks between his own groom and his father's chimney-sweep. Now, if a gentleman was obliged to stand in the ranks next to a chimney-sweep, he did not see how it made the matter worse that it was his father's chimney-sweep. All this awkwardness would, however, be done away by the present bill, for if the gentleman did not chose to enter a volunteer corps, he might still be exempted on paying his fine of 5l.
Mr. Yorke
thought it his duty to take the sense of the house upon the present question. The question was not merely about extending a new experiment to Scotland, but it was whether Scotland should be exempted from what it was now liable to
852
Mr. Ryder
observed, that there were many parts of the Highlands of Scotland, particularly in the counties of Dumbarton, and Perth, which were more populous than Wales, Cumberland, Westmoreland, and many parts of England in which the bill was to operate. As to the Lowlands, he conceived them to be exactly in the same situation as England, and that there was no reason why they should be free from this burden.—The committee then divided, when there appeared. For Mr. Yorke's amendment 38; Against it 76: Majority 38.
Mr. Yorke
moved, as an amendment, that these Words should be added, "regard being had to the number of volunteers enrolled and actually serving." He considered that the appointment ought to be, directed now, as on former occasions, by the number of volunteers. For instance, if Lancashire had 18,000 volunteers, and Yorkshire, which was a much larger county, had but 10,000, he thought that re-
853
Wynne
Castlereagh
Windham
Castlereagh
Windham
Perceval
Yorke
l
Windham
Yorke
854
Giles
Perceval
Giles
855
Dr. Laurence
affected neither to be a prophet nor a conjuror; but, without either inspiration or magic, he thought he could correctly understand the clause of the bill, although it was not to be expected that by a layman minute legal details should be accurately set forth in this stage of the proceeding. His hon. and learned friend seemed to expect a precision in this case, which he himself (Mr. Perceval) could not attain, even after his own bills had been ultimately sanctioned: at least, it was evident, that after he had prepared them (the volunteer acts) he did not comprehend their purport; and one of the statutes to which he had just referred, which was designed for operation in the months of July and August, was not carried into effect until the most ominous day distinguished in the annals of folly and illusion, the first of April.
Mr. Ellison
said, that the rt. hon. secretary was, by his projects, oversetting the whole system of government in this country. Although, said the hon. gent. I wish to support ministers, I will not, and cannot, as they go on.—The amendment as proposed by. Mr. Yorke was then put and agreed to.
Lord Castlereagh
again rose to observe, that many material particulars occurred to his mind, which might occasion a protracted debate on this subject; he therefore proposed that the chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again the next day, which was acceded to, and the report was made, and permission given accordingly.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, June 27.
856
[MINUTES.]
The Clyde Canal bill was read a third time, and passed.—The Solicitor General brought up the bill for altering and amending the several laws relating to Bankrupts, which was read a first time.—Mr. Vansittart, brought up a bill for regulating the Auditing of Public Accounts. Read a first time.—Mr. Dugdale moved the further consideration of the Report of the Birmingham Canal bill; a conversation ensued on an Amendment moved by sir J. Wrottesley, that the report be taken into consideration this day three months; and a division took place; for the amendment 57; against it 33; majority 24. The bill was of course lost for this session.—Mr. Alexander brought up the Report of the East India Shipping bill, which was agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Monday.—Sir John Newport, pursuant to notice, moved that the Order of the Day for taking into consideration the County of Wexford Election Petition, on Wednesday, the 3d of July, be deferred to Wednesday the 10th of July, Ordered.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the house in a committee of Ways and Means, agreed to a resolution for granting a sum of 4,500,000
l
l
l
857
[BALLOT SUSPENSION BILL.]
The house went into a committee on the bill for the suspension of the militia ballot.
Lord Castlereagh
thought that though it was not intended now to extend the training to Scotland, correct lists of the population of that country would be useful with a view to its eventual extension to it; and that in a country where military spirit was so prevalent, the suspension of the ballot would be useful with a view to recruiting.
Mr. Winabam
thought the continuance of the ballot in that country would operate as a stimulus to volunteering. The lists of the population may be called for at the same time that the training was extended, if at a future time that should seem fit.—The report was brought up, and ordered to be taken into further consideration On Tuesday.
[PHILANTHROPIC SOCIETY'S BILL.] Mr. Holford
moved the order of the day for the third reading of the bill for incorporating the Philanthropic Society. The bill was read a third time, and, after a short adjournment of the proceedings on the third reading, in order to afford time for engrossing a clause proposed by Mr. Tierney, with a view to make the society responsible for any costs or charges that might be incurred by the parish, in case any of the persons educated in the institution should hereafter become a burthen to the parish, the clause was brought up, but opposed by Mr. Holford and Mr. Perceval, on the ground of the absurdity of such a provision, which would have the effect of subjecting the charity to repay to die parish whatever expence it might be put to by persons educated in the institution, who, though they should obtain a legal settlement, might even 40 years hence become a charge upon the parish. The clause Was negatived without a division.
Dr. Laurence
contended for the right of the rector to nominate, or at least to controul, the appointment of the preacher or lecturer in chapels of ease within his rectory, of which description he conceived the chapel of the Philanthropic Society to be, although annexed to a public charity: for it was not confined as a private chapel, for the mere use of the institution, but executed upon a spacious and superb scale,
858
Mr. Holford
observed, that the hon. and learned gent. seemed to have widely mistaken, and certainly he had widely misstated, he must presume, from misinformation, the facts of this case. This chapel Was not erected with a principal view to revenue, but was certainly built on such a scale, as to accommodate a number of other children, besides those of the institution, who could not find accommo-
859
860
[BELL ROCK LIGHTHOUSE.] The Lord Advocate
of Scotland moved, that the house should go into a committee on the report of the committee in 1803, for erecting a light-house on the Bell Rock on the east coast of Scotland. The learned lord stated that the measure, though universally admitted to be highly advantageous to the shipping interest, and though agreed to by the house in 1803,
861
Lord H. Petty
seemed to doubt of the necessity of the measure. On an explanation from the lord advocate, however, he stated that what he had thrown out, he did more in conformity to the opinion of the first lord of the admiralty, than to any opinion he himself had entertained.
Mr. Baker
did not pretend to be Competent to judge on the subject, but as it seemed to be intended that part of the public money should be expended on the erection, he wished the learned lord would more clearly point out the utility of the measure.
The Lord Advocate
referred for the utility of the measure to the report of the committee in the year 1803. He had no doubt the hon. gent. opposite would have no objection to the measure, if the erection could be made without money. Nay, he conceived it to be a self-evident proposition, that in a mercantile country there could be no objection, if it could be done without expense, that a light should be fixed on every rock in the ocean. The report of the committee, in the present case however, shewed that here there was peculiar danger; that seldom a vessel came near it without being almost instantly dashed to pieces; and that from the circumstance of its being covered at half tide, there was hardly an instance where such an occurrence took place, but every soul perished.
Mr. Perceval
expressed his surprize that the business had been so long delayed. He also thought, if, as was stated the preceding night, no measure could be extended to Scotland at this period of the session, there was no call on the house at so late a period to confer a boon on that country.
The Lord Advocate
said, he should be able to show, if it should afterwards come before the house, that the measure alluded to was inapplicable to Scotland. He declared that he had no particular predilection for the present measure, which he only brought forward in the discharge of his duty as representing that part of the
862
Mr. Johnstone
recollected that his hon. relation (sir W. Pulteney) had formerly carried through this measure, and had shewn to the house that it would be highly advantageous to shipping in general, particularly to those ships trading from Hull and Scarborough.
Mr. W. Smith
confirmed the statement. The cause of the former measure not succeeding, was an idea entertained of comprehending the Baltic trade among the ships which were to pay a certain per tonnage, which was objected to. The house, would be better able to judge of the matter when the estimates came in. The resolution therefore had his concurrence.—The committee then passed resolutions declaratory of the advantages which would result from the erection of the lighthouse in question; and that there be paid for every British vessel passing in the line pointed out, being between Peterhead and Berwick-upon-Tweed, a duty of 1½d. per ton, and for every foreign vessel so passing 3d. per ton.
[TRAINING BILL.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee on the Training bill,
Sir James Pulteney
proposed, as an amendment, that the first 200,000 men should be trained for two years instead of one, so that they would have 48 days training; a plan which would be, more useful than giving 24 days training to double that number.
Mr. Windham
resisted the amendment, because, as this would materially increase the burden, it might produce a greater degree, of dissatisfaction then the advantage was worth. Perhaps the number of days for training might be increased, but that would be for future consideration.
Lord Castlereagh
supported the amendment, and drew a comparison between the expence of this system and that of the volunteers. The expence of the former, he contended, would be greater without the same advantages. Since there was a
863
Mr. Windham
said that the noble lord was always fond of referring to the volunteers on all occasions. But this, and a great part of what he said, was quite out of place here. He was hardly excusable in following him, but as to the point of expence, he contended that that of the volunteers, taking the sums provided by private contributions, was much greater than the expence would be under this bill. Besides, here we had the advantage of both systems. It was true that under the bill of 1803 the men were to be trained 40 days. But then 20 of these days were Sundays, and these were here given up. It had been communicated to him from various quarters, that training men on that day diminished the reverence for it. On that point he would leave the noble lord in the hands of the gentlemen near him (Wilberforce and Bankes). If this was the case, we were to consider the disadvantage under which the additional training was gained. He himself wished earnestly to preserve the reverence for the Sabbath. He had shewn it when he wished to suppress the growing evil of Sunday Newspapers, though he did not experience the support from certain gentlemen which he might have expected. He did not think however, that training men on Sundays would diminish their reverence for it, but in this point he had yielded to the opinions of others. As to the officers for these men, he never meant that they should be in the first instance permanently and regularly officered. These the king would appoint as he saw occasion. There must be officers, for instance, in case of invasion, to conduct them to the regiments, as it was not to be supposed that they were to have directions put about their necks and sent off in that Manner.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
wished to ask, whether the men, when at drill, were to be under the command of the serjeant, or of the constable who was to stand over them? He was anxious to know what the
864
Mr. Windham
replied, that the serjeant would instruct them, and the constable would instruct them, and the constable would stand by (a loud laugh from the Opposition.) Though gentleman might laugh, he would ask with Bayes in the Rehearsal, "Where was the joke?" He could not preceive any thing laughable in this. The constable was to be present, and to assist the serjeant in the performance of his duty, and this he would be better enabled to do, from long habits of legal obedience in the people.
Mr. Perceval
observed that his right hon. friend's training act had provided a captain, lieutenant, ensign, and serjeant, for every body of 120 men. Here there was some rational provision for discipline and obedience. But there was now to be a constable to take the man to prison, if he did not turn out his toes properly, or obey the signals of "eyes right," or "eyes left," with sufficient promptitude. They were to be taken from the plough or the loom, just as they were, and only one serjeant and a constable to teach or enforce discipline.
Mr. Windham
observed that even in volunteer corps, the captain was more military in name than in reality: rather a civil than a military character; and he had little doubt that the means now proposed to enforce obedience, would be just as effectual as those which had obtained among the volunteers.
Mr. Perceval
replied that the volunteers had more of the
esprit du corps
Mr. Bastard
was afraid that frequent quarrels would take place between the serjeant and the constable. Among the volunteers every thing was done by zeal and good will, but here all would be done by force and by the halbert.
Lord H. Petty,
in answer to the observation of a noble lord with regard to the want of cloathing if called to act against the enemy, observed, that though in that case they could not be cloathed all at once, yet all those might be cloathed who were to act at one point; and, besides, this could from no objection to their being prepared in the mean time.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
objected to the
865
Sir J. Newport
replied that he considered that any deputy lieutenant, or person under them, might make the bargain under the powers of this act.
Mr. Wilberforce
stated that many persons, whose opinions were intitled to great weight, objected to Sunday being appointed as the day of training. The actual consequences of its being at all allowed was, that drilling not only went on through the time of divine service, but inspections also took place. This produced a desertion of our churches, and a filling of our ale-houses on Sundays, which, he thought, was subversive of religion. As to the saving of money, that was a fallacious argument, for in every county the price of labour was so proportioned to the means of subsistence, that if men were to labour the seven days, they would receive no more than for working six days.
Mr. Calvert
considered, that the military instruction was so sacred a daty that it might well be performed of a Sunday. In other countries it had been practised without any ill effect. It was practised in Switzerland, and yet he never heard that the Swiss were either an immoral or an irreligious nation. The fact was, that unless the training was of a Sunday, it would be so inconvenient as to be altogether impracticable.
Mr. Yorke
declared, that although he had as much regard for the religion of the Country as any other man, yet. he considered that the training on a Sunday (provided that it was not in the hours of divine service) would relieve the labouring class from a great burden. It was not only in Switzerland that this was practised, but in this country it had been the established practice in the time of Henry the 8th, and in later times, that the people should be practised in the use of arms on that day.
Mr. Windham
thought, that instead of causing irreverence and disregard to the Sabbath, it would, on the contrary, exalt and dignify the duty that they had to perform. He therefore supported the clause as it now stood.
866
Sir J. Pulteney
declared, that he had seen many volunteers exercising on a Sunday, and he always observed that degree of decency and propriety that he thought gave a great solemnity to it. As to the prejudices of the people at large, he was convinced they were not against it, and he thought it would be extremely hard that the opinions or consciences of a few should deprive the nation of so great a benefit.—A long and desultory conversation took place. Mr. Calvert, who had moved for allowing them to be trained on a Sunday, finding the sense of the house against him, withdrew his amendment, and the clause was passed in its original state.—The chairman had leave to report progress, and the committee was appointed for Monday. Adjourned at two o'clock on Saturday morning.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, June 30.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA—RECAL OF SIR G. BARLOW.] Lord Melville
adverted to the intention he had intimated on Thursday, of asking a question this day, respecting the affairs of India. Seeing a noble lord (Minto) in his place, he wished to ask, whether there existed at present any government general of India in Bengal, and if there did, of whom it consisted?
Lord Minto
said, he felt no difficulty in answering the questions of the noble viscount, to whom, as well as to every noble lord in the house, he wished to give every information in his power, whenever it could be given with propriety. He conceived that the same government general of India existed now in Bengal as there did when that event took place, which was so much deplored, the death of marquis Cornwallis. He had no hesitation in stating, that his majesty had been advised to issue orders for vacating the commission under which the functions of the government of India were exercised. This had been done according to the terms of the act of parliament. There was, however, a provision made in the orders sent out, that all the members of the present government should exercise their functions, until the publication of a new commission at Calcutta. There would not, therefore, be a moment's interval between the cessation of the functions of one government, and the assumption of those functions by another.
867
Lord Melville
felt it necessary to trouble the noble lord with another question, which was, whether any intimation had been sent to sir G. Barlow, that he only held the government until the arrival of a successor?
Lord Minto
said, that intimation had been sent to sir G. Barlow of the vacation of the commission of government. The vacation of the commission of course applied to all the members of the council, but only
pro forma
Lord Melville
maintained, from what the noble lord had stated, that there was at present, virtually, no government general existing in India. From what had been stated by the noble lord, added to the dispatches in the gazette, which he had read within an hour of his coming to the house, he could not help feeling considerable anxiety with respect to the situation of affairs in India. His lordship gave notice of a motion respecting the government general of India for Friday, for which day the lords were ordered to be summoned
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, June 30.
[MINUTES.]
A new writ was ordered to be issued for the election of a member for the borough of Sligo, in the room of Owen Wynne, esq. who had accepted of the office of escheater of Munster.—Mr. Williams presented the 14th report of the commissioners of naval inquiry. Ordered to be printed.—Lord Howick said, that he was about to move for some papers, to the granting of which there could be no objection. It would be proper to state to the house the reason why he asked for them. Soon after he had come into office he had been informed on good authority that in consequence of the embankments at Catwater, near Plymouth, the Sound there might in a short time become unsafe for his Majesty's ships. Having this information from respectable authority, he had thought the matter of sufficient moment to require examination. He had accordingly ordered an inquiry to be made by engineers, whose reports, in some
868
869
[BARRACKS.] The Secretary at War
said, that seeing an hon. Member in his place, who had moved for certain papers relative to the Barrack department he wished to know whether he meant to bring forward any motion on them?
Mr. Robson
answered, that he made a motion for such papers, but that the business had been taken out of his hands by the chancellor of the exchequer, and if he did justice to the cause he had taken in hand, it would not be necessary for him to make any motion on the subject; but if the chancellor of the exchequer did not pursue it, he would make a motion on the subject in the course of the present week.
The Secretary at War
wished the hon. Member would name the day, as he had other papers to move for, which would throw more light on the subject.
Mr. Robson
replied that he understood by what had passed that the chancellor of the exchequer had abandoned the business, and he therefore gave notice, that he would, on Friday, bring forward a motion on the subject.
The Secretary at War
said he had no authority from the chancellor of the exchequer, who was not then in his place, to say he had abandoned the business, nor did he say any such thing.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, July 1.
[MINUTES.]
The Insolvent Debtors bill was read a third time and passed, with an amendment proposed by lord Ellenborough, the object of which was to exclude persons from the benefit of the act, who were in custody under verdicts obtained against them for any malicious injury.— Lord Westmoreland thought that every possible information that could throw light on the present state a our affairs in India, should
870
HOUSE or COMMONS.
Tuesday, July 1
[MINUTES.] Mr. Hurst
presented a petition from the Albion Fire and Life Insurance Company, against the bill for incorporating the Globe Insurance Company, praying to be heard by counsel against the same. Referred to the committee ,on the said bill. On the motion of sir J. Sinclair, the house went in to a committee, to consider the report of the committee on the Expiring Laws, in which a resolution was agreed to, that the act of the 45th of his present majesty, for allowing, under certain restrictions, until, the 1st of August 1806, the bringing of coals by inland navigation to the cities of London and Westminster, had nearly expired, and that it was advisable to renew it. The house having been resumed, the report was ordered to be received tomorrow.—Mr. Calcraft obtained leave to bring in a bill to vest certain messuages, lands, tenements, and hereditaments, in trustees, for the purpose of securing his majesty's docks at Portsmouth, and extending the works at Dover. Mr. C. immediately brought up the above, which was read a. first time.—Mr. Vansittart obtained leave to bring in a bill to consolidate the several acts for building and improving the streets leading to Westminster-hall and the two houses of parliament.—Sir C. Price brought
871
Mr. Canning
had no objection to the course of proceeding which the right hon. gent. suggested, although it would be attended with some inconvenience to the gentlemen who remained in town solely on this account. He should avail himself of the next opportunity to take the sense of the house on the principle of the bill, which in his opinion, no new clauses whatever could possibly amend.—A variety of clauses was then introduced by Mr. Windham, and the report was ordered to be taken into further consideration on Thursday.
[BARRACKS The Secretary at War
moved for the production of copies of certain letters which passed between the secretary at war, the barrack master general, the deputy barrack master general, and major Davis, barrack master of Sandown, relative to the building of barracks, and the hiring of barns, &c. in the Isle of Wight, including the letter of the secretary at war, on the 15th of February last, which communicated his in majesty's order for the dismissal of Mr. Atkins from his office as barrack master of Sandown.—Ordered. They were accordingly presented, ordered to lie on the table and to be printed.
Mr. Robson
thought proper to add to the papers just presented another document connected with the same subject. In calling the attention of the house to this business, he could assure gentlemen that his sole motive was to prevent the improper expenditure of the public money, and he was persuaded that the right hon. secretary had no other object. With a view to that object he had to move for a paper to the production of which he hoped there would be no objection, as it would serve to afford the house much useful information, The
872
The Speaker
suggested to the hon. mover, that the latter words of his motion were rather such as it was unusual to introduce or admit in describing a paper to be submitted to that house.
Mr. Robson
said, that he took the description from the title of the memorial itself.
The Secretary at War
concurred in the observations of the Speaker, and suggested the insertion of "certain practices," in lien of the words objected to.—This suggestion was adopted, and the motion, so amended, was agreed to.
[IRISH QUIT RENTS BILL.]
Upon the motion of sir John Newport, that the Irish Quit Rents Sale amendment bill should be read a second time.
Mr. J.
Fitzgerald
opposed the motion, on the ground that the bill proposed to dispose of, for ever, a large proportion of the hereditary revenue of the crown. This bill, the right hon. gent. observed, passed the Irish parliament in 1798, and was meant to produce a certain sum for the supplies of that year, but it produced nothing; and it was rather odd to have it proposed now, when the supplies of the year were provided for. Such a measure could not be acceded to, without, in his opinion, doing great injustice to his majesty's successors; and he begged the house to consider that the practice had never been heard of in England, of disposing of the hereditary revenues of the crown, without allowing an hereditary conpensation, which was not the case in this instance.
Sir J.
Newport
was surprised at the opposition made to this bill, which Was introduced solely to amend a verbal inaccuracy in the Irish bill passed on this subject in the war 1798. The right hon. baronet denied that this bill was meant for an immediate supply to the finances of Ireland; for, from its very nature, its produce must be progressive. No minister could calculate upon the sale or. a revenue of 60, or 70,000l. within one year. This revenue was, it must be recollected, commuted for an adequate increase in the Irish civil list; and gentlemen must be aware that those great risks.
873
Mr.
Foster
concurred in the opinion of his hon. friend (Mr. Fitzgerald), and maintained that, as the sum proposed to be raised by this means was one million, the object could he attained on cheaper terms, as the late loan sufficiently proved, He recommended the postponement of the proposition till next sessions. —The further consideration of the bill was agreed to be put off till Monday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, July 2.
[MINUTES.] Lord Grenville
presented a message from his majesty, adverting to the inadequacy of the funds at present assigned for the provision of the younger branches of the Royal Family (similar to that presented to the House of Commons, and to which we refer), and desiring the concurrence of their lordships in such measures as may be deemed necessary, to enable his majesty to supply such deficiencies, &c. The message being read in the usual way, the same was, on the motion of lord Grenville, ordered to be taken into consideration to-morrow, and the lords summoned thereon.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA——RECAL OF SIR G. BARLOW.] Lord Minto
seeing a noble earl in his place (Westmoreland), begged leave to address a few observations to their lordships, for the purpose of explaining and rectifying a mistake which he had made, inadvertently, yesterday, for want of proper information at the moment. What he alluded to, was his statement in the conversation which took place between him and the noble earl, on the subject of the India Papers he had moved for—"that there had been no correspondence between the Board of Controul and the Court of Directors, on the topic of vacating the present Commission of the Government General in Bengal, after that proceeding had taken place." It happened, however, and which had since come to his knowledge, that some correspondence had taken place between those officers, after the circumstance alluded to had occurred; but he felt it incumbent on him to observe, that those communications were of a nature involving such particular points and considerations, that he resist Any motion tending to their public expo-
874
The Earl of Westmoreland
shortly stated that his noble friend (lord Melville) intending to postpone the motion he had given notice of on Friday,to another day, he would therefore move to discharge the order for summoning their lordships for Friday next, in order to renew the same for Tuesday next.
Lord Minto
had no objection to the proceeding, but expressed his wish to know, whether it was the intention of the noble viscount to move for the papers he had adverted to? To this query, the earl of Westmoreland answered in the affirmative. The order was then discharged, and a similar order made for summoning their lordships on Tuesday
next.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, July 2.
[MINUTES.]
The Insolvent Debtors bill was read a first time.—Mr. Vansittart brought up a bill for consolidating and rendering more effectual several acts for improving the approaches to Westminster Hall, and the two Houses of Parliament. Read a first time.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee on the act for allowing the introduction of a limited quantity of coals into the cities of London and Westminster by the Inland navigation. The resolution of the committee was agreed to, and a Bill for continuing the act of the 45th of the king, for that purpose, ordered pursuant thereto.—Mr. Vansittart moved, "that the house do resolve itself into a committee of ways and means," in which it was resolved that the lords commissioners of the treasury should be empowered to issue tickets, not exceeding 100,000, for the purposes of one or more lotteries for the present year, on the usual terms of 101. a ticket, and subject to such regulations as the Lords of the Treasury shall think proper. The report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—The House, on the motion of Mr. Van-
875
[KING'S MESSAGE RELATING TO THE ROYAL FAMILY.] Lord Henry Petty
acquainted the house, that he had a message 
from his majesty to this house, signed by his majesty; and he presented the same to the house; and it was read by the Speaker, and is as followeth,
viz.
"George R.
His Majesty having, by his message of the 8th day of April,1778, recommended to his faithful commons to make competent provision for the honourable support and maintenance of the younger branches of the Royal Family, and in consequence thereof, an act having passed, charging certain annuities, for such purpose, upon the aggregate fund of Great Britain; but no provision having afterwards been made in the act, by which
876
[AUDITOR'S BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Auditor's bill.
Mr. T. Jones
wished, as considerable doubts had gone abroad on the subject, to ask the noble lord whether they were to understand that any considerable portion of the 450 millions, he had stated on a former occasion as the amount of unaudited accounts, was recoverable to the public?
Lord Henry Petty
was surprised, after all the discussions that had taken place on the subject, and all the explanations that had been given, that any doubt could be entertained on this subject. He meant as he had stated, that public accounts to that amount were still unaudited, and of course unaccounted for, that is, that the accounts had not been regularly investigated, or finally audited.
Mr. Rose
stated, that he did not expect the second reading to have been pressed this night, the bill having only come into the hands of the members within the last two or three hours.
Lord H. Petty
said, he had no wish to press the bill, but thought the debate on the principle might as well take place on the question for the Speaker's leaving the chair. To this
Mr. Rose
assented. Hehad, however, serious objections to the principle of the bill
877
The Attorney General
could not allow the noble lord's statement to have been so much misunderstood by the public, as to be interpreted into an assurance, that the vast sum unaccounted for was a recoverable balance yet applicable to the public service. It was certainly a public e
Mr. Haskisson
said the paymaster was merely bound to return a list of those to whom he issued the sums drawn by him from the Exchequer; and those persons were bound to account for what was issued to them. That had been done with very few exceptions.
Mr. T. Jones
hoped the bill would make effectual provision for a speedy audit. He would propose a clause to that effect in a future stage.
Mr. Windham
could not conceive how a delay of 20 years could have occurred in the audit of the paymaster's accounts, if the sub-accountants had accounted regularly.
Mr. Rose,
in explanation stated, that the paymaster was to give in a certified list of those to whom he issued the money: the Commissioners of Audit were then to call on the persons named in this list.—The bill was then read a second time.
878
[ASSESSED TAXES ALLOWANCE BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
moved the further consideration of the report of this bill.
Mr. Huskisson
wished the noble lord to be more explicit in his explanation of his measure. When he proposed an increase of the property tax, the noble lord thought that no allowance should be made in it for the number of children, and now it was impossible to discover, whether he proposed this abatement in consideration of the pressure of the property tax, the assessed taxes, or the taxes generally. One thing was certain, that this would make a very great diminution, to the extent of 2 or 300,000l. in the produce of the revenue upon the permanent taxes. The assessments afforded no criterion of a man's income, and the bill should properly state the principle on which it proceeded. The surplus of the consolidated fund was a security against any defalcations: but by this exemption, it would be considerably diminished. The noble lord found himself under the necessity of adding 1,200,000l. to the permanent taxes; and, by this measure, he would increase the charge upon them, without having made any further provision for it. If the war should cease, the noble lord might be induced to repeal the property tax, and this deduction would operate on that part of the consolidated fund, upon which there were permanent charges. He stated his intention to propose a clause for remedying this inconvenience.
Lord H. Petty
remarked, that when he proposed the additional property tax, the gentlemen on the other side seemed to wish the exemptions to be continued as before; but he thought it objectionable, as well upon general principles, as in its application to the execution of that tax. This mode also was not entirely consistent with what he conceived to be the general principles of taxation; but he adopted it, as being less objectionable in practice than the other. He held it to be the most blameable and mischievous of all delusions, to hold out exemptions, which could not be realized, on account of the difficulties and impediments that. might be thrown in their way, which could not happen in this case. He had no objection to explain, that the principle of this allowance arose out of the general pressure of taxation upon the people of this
879
Mr. Huskisson
still objected to the diverting of any part or the permanent taxes, for the purpose of relief from the pressure of the temporary taxes. He concluded by moving a clause, by which it was provided that a sum equal to the amount of the exemption should be paid into the consolidated fund out of the property tax—Lord H. Petty agreed to this amendment, and the bill was ordered to be read a third time the next day.
[VACCINE INOCULATION.] Lord Henry Petty rose
and addressed the house as follows:—I rise, sir, in pursuance of the notice I gave to the house a few days
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881
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883
Dr. Matthews.
—It is with much satisfaction, sir, that I rise to second the motion which the noble lord has just now made, and to take this opportunity of stating my own sentiments upon this invaluable discovery. From the time of its first publication to the world I have paid it the utmost attention, and have carefully watched its progress. I must confess that, at first, although I was perfectly disposed to admit the veracity of the celebrated discoverer himself, yet I received the accounts of its success with a certain degree of caution. I then thought that it might be attended with considerable hazard to society were we to give up practising a mode, the good effects of which had been already fully experienced, in order to adopt one which might be uncertain, precarious, and dangerous in its consequences. Under these impressions, sir, I attended with assiduity to the progress of this new practice as it advanced, and the result has been, that my mind has now received the fullest conviction of the vast superiority of the vaccine inoculation over that of the small pox inoculation.
884
885
'Inventas aut qui vitam excoluere per artes Atque sui memores alios fecere merendi.'
Mr. Wilberforce.
—It gives me, sir, the greatest pleasure to find that the noble lord opposite me has now taken up this question. I have long entertained an anxious desire, that such an important subject should be brought into the house, through the medium of some individual in an high and powerful situation. Although that noble lord has fulfilled my hopes and expectations in this respect, yet, sir, I am greatly disposed to doubt, whether the plan he has just now suggested is so likely to have the desired effect as some others that might be submitted to the consideration of the house. It may be remembered, that some time ago, a certificate had been made out and signed by a most respectable body of medical gentlemen, as to the propriety and efficacy of vaccine inoculation. I believe that every medical name of any celebrity, in the city of London and its environs, was attached to that certificate, and, therefore, so far as the effect of such a mode of procedure, as relates to medical men could go, it has already been tried. Undoubtedly there have been various rumours circulated and arguments raised against the practice of inoculation for the cow pox, and every one has heard of some individual instances of failure, and it has unfortunately happened, that many of these failures have originated through the imprudent management even of its best friends. Many persons have taken upon them to give this disorder, without any study, relying upon the bare description they had re-
886
887
888
889
Mr. Secretary Windham.
—
The only point, sir, in which it appears to me, that we differ in opinion, as to the subject under our consideration, is, as to the mode that ought to be pursued in effecting the object we have in view. Upon this point I must say, that I am rather inclined to give the preference to the plan which has been suggested by my noble friend, who brought forward this motion. The proposition which has been just now made by the hon. gent. seems to be merely a commutation of that which has been suggested by the noble lord near me. The whole difference turns upon the question of substituting the report of a committee of this house for that of the College of Physicians. The hon. member seems to think, that an investigation and report, proceeding from a committee, would have more weight and authority with the public, than a report issuing from a body of Physicians. In this particular, however, I must beg leave to differ from him, as I think a committee of this house would be less competent to form a correct and sound judgment upon the subject, than medical men would be. Their incompetency would be felt and considered by the public, and consequently an opinion from them, as to the good or bad effects of the vaccine inoculation would have much less weight on their minds. It would not tend to allay their suspicions, nor administer a guidance for their future conduct. Far different, however, would be the effect of a report proceeding from that learned and respectable body, the Royal College of Physicians, most formally called upon by parliament. By the noble lord's plan, I think the authority and influence of parliament would come in just in the way in which it ought to come."It will add a superior degree of solemnity to our sanction of what we deem a most useful and highly beneficial discovery. In the one case, the house would be grounding their procedure upon the opinion of a committee, founded perhaps upon fallacious principles, while in the other they
890
Ne suitor ultra crepidam;
891
Mr. Wilberforce
in explanation, said, I should be sorry to be in any degree misunderstood as to what I have said in regard to compulsion. The rt. hon. gent. seems to suppose I meant to suggest the propriety of adopting compulsory measures in regard to the practice of the vaccine inoculation. So far from meaning that kind of constraint, I think I expressed myself so as to imply that it would be absolutely wrong. This is my most deliberate opinion. All that I meant by talking of compulsion was, that sonic particular mode ought to be prescribed for enforcing certain regulations and restrictions upon those individuals, who might in a voluntary manner submit to small-pox inoculation, such regulations being of a kind neither to be injurious nor to bear hard upon them in any respect whatever. It was alone with the intention of providing for the convenience
892
Mr. Bankes.
—Sir, it appears to me that the mode proposed by the noble lord is exceedingly eligible at this late period of the session, in so far as he wishes to combine the science of a learned body with the judgment and deliberation of a committee of the house of commons, and that nothing should be determined upon until both their reports have been conjoined and submitted to the consideration of the house. If this motion had been made however, at an earlier period of the session, I cannot help thinking that, in a matter of this sort (which is a matter of fact, and not a question of science), there could not be a better mode of procedure than that which has been suggested by my hon. friend near me. Even those the best acquainted with the matter under discussion cannot pretend to give an accurate description of the real sources from which the existing prejudices have arisen, or the causes from which its want of cultivation and encouragement have originated. The subject in which the public are most materially interested, and the fact which remains to be more clearly ascertained is, whether this discovery, which has been made by Dr. Jenner is, in the mode in which it is now practised, of such a sort as to afford us a reasonable security against the ravages of that more dreadful disorder which it is intended to prevent.—
This, sir, appears to me to be a subject of consideration so distinct from that of a scientific nature, that it is one which any number of reasonable and thinking men, affording their time to it, are as capable of laying distinctly and clearly before the public, as the most learned body that ever existed could do.
893
894
Mr. William Smith
—I do not rise, sir, for the purpose of discussing the real merits, as to the effect of this wonderful discovery, relying that we shall in the end find, that it will turn out to our most sanguine expectations, and consequently well worthy the further liberality of parliament. I merely wish to make a few observations upon a subject which is of such vast importance to the public at large, that I do not think a few
895
Mr. Paull
—Sir, I beg leave to make a few observations upon the subject now under discussion. I happened to live many
896
Lord Henry Petty.
—Sir, I certainly experience a very great degree of satisfaction in finding the house so unanimous as to the general object in view from the motion which I have thought it incumbent upon me to submit to your consideration, and I think that nothing but the lateness of the session should prevent us from coming to some conclusion upon this important subject. Those hon. gentlemen, who have spoken upon this occasion, have distinctly and accurately stated the object I had in view, to consist in combining all the weight of scientific knowledge that could possibly be obtained. This end, I think, may be fully accomplished by the inquiry being instituted by that learned and scientific body, recognized by the government of this country, under the name of the Royal College of Physicians, and by an ulterior reference of their sentiments to this house through the medium of our committee. I cannot however, agree with an hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Bankes) who has given it as his opinion, that this enquiry
897
898
899
nem. con.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, July 3.
[MINUTES.]
The royal assent was given by commission to the Additional Assessed Taxes bill, the Tortola Free Port bill, the Irish Spirit Licence bill, the Irish Mine bill, the Excise Regulation bill, the Stamp-office Regulation bill, the Gibrallar and Malta Postage bill, the Prussian Yarn bill, the Duke of Grafton's Agreement bill, and the Temple Bar and Snow-lottery bill. The commissioners were the archbishop of Canterbury,the lord chancellor,and lord Walsingham.—The judges resumed the delivery of their opinions in the case of Lucina
v.
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING THE ROYAL FAMILY.]
His majesty's message of yesterday respecting a more effectual provision for the younger branches of the royal family, was then taken into consideration; the order and message having been duly read,
Lord Grenville
rose. He observed, that the communication front his majesty which their lordships had just heard, resolved itself into two heads, or might be considered in two points of view. The general object was the concurrence of their lordships in such measures as might be deemed necessary to enable his majesty to make a more effectual provision for the younger branches of the royal family; and the present application arose, in some degree, out of an omission in the act of 1778, under which part of the existing provisions for the younger branches of
900
901
nem. dis.
[VACCINE INOCULATION.] The Earl of Suffolk
took occasion to make a few remarks on the above subject. He expressed his happiness at what had taken place with respect to it in the other house of parliament, which he trusted would tend finally to do away (and to which effect he was ambitious of contributing his mite) those ill-founded impressions, which obtained against that useful and salutary practice, originating in certain scurrilous pamphlets, and the assertions of interested individuals. The practice was grown into extensive use upon the continent. With repect to Spain, (which was nut mentioned in the other house), particularly, he had the authority of a nobleman of high rank in this country (the marquis of Bute) to state,that the vaccine inoculation was highly esteemed there, and encouraged by the government, so far, that in all the royal ordonnances relative to that subject, its worthy author was styled 'the immortal Jenner!' He had nothing now to propose but was so fully impressed with the importance of the topic, that he could not avoid thus troubling their lordships.
902
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Thursday, July 3.
[MINUTES]
The speaker informed the house that George Davis, esq. the petitioner against the late return for the county of Wexford, had not entered into a recognizance, according to law, to prosecute Iris petition, and consequently the order for taking the said petition into consideration on Thursday the tenth inst. fell to the ground. Mr. Vansiftart brought in a bill for continuing the importation of coals by the Paddington canal; Which was read a first time. Mr. Robson withdrew his notice of a motion relative to certain transactions in the barrack department in the Isle of Wight, which stood for to-morrow, with a declaration that he would briny; it forward as soon as the necessary papers should be in the hands of the members.—The Assessed Taxes relief bill was read a third tune; and passed.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, leave was given to bring in a bill to enable the lords of the treasury to issue exchequer bills on the aids of the year 1805, according to the resolutions of the house to that effect.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, leave was given to bring in a bill for the more effectual performance of Quarantine in Great Britain.—A person from the commissioners of Military Inquiry, presented a copy of the memorial of John Pritchard,to these commissioners, relative to certain transactions in the barrack department.
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING LORD ROONEY'S ANNUITY.] Lord Henry Petty
acquainted the house, that he had a message from his majesty to this house, and he presented the same to the house; and it was read by Mr. Speaker, as followeth viz. "G. R. Application having been made to his majesty, that the pension which was granted by his majesty of 1000
l.
903
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING A VOTE OF CREDIT.] Lord Henry Petty
acquanted the house, that he had a message from his majesty to this house, and he presented the same to the house; and it was read by Mr. Speaker, as full wedi. viz. "G. R. His Majesty, relying on the experienced zeal and affection of ,his faithful commons, and considering that it may be of the utmost importance to provide for such emergencies as may arise, is desirous that this house will enable him to take all such measures as may be necessary to disappoint or defeat any enterprizes or designs of his enemies, and as the exigencies of a hairs may require. G. R." Ordered, that the said message be referred to the consideration of the committee of the whole house, to whom it is referred to consider further of the supply granted to his majesty.
[MILITIA BALLOT SUSPENSION BILL.]Mr. Windham
moved the order of the day for the 3d reading of this bill.
Sir W. Elford roes
to make a few observations on that part of the bill, which suspended the ballot for the militia. The ballot was already suspended as to those regiments that were above their establishment; but the suspension ought not, in his opinion, to be extended to those which wee below their establishment. This diminution of their numbers had been the effect of volunteering into the line. As to the plan of substituting a bounty, instead of the ballot,he thought it subversive of the principles on which the militia service was founded, namely, the prerogative of the king to call out a part of the people in defence of the country. From this it followed, of course that the service was in its nature compulsory and that a ballot must be employed to prevent arbitrary restrictions to particular classes. Ballot had accordingly been hitherto successfully employed fur this purpose. He then contended, that compulsory service in the navy would be rendered more like some and invidious, by doing away the ballot for the militia. As
904
Mr. Windham
observed, that he intended to propose a clause, by way of rider, which would do away the objections of the hon. baronet. While the militia was on he whole above that establishment which had been thought sufficient, there were some regiments considerably below it; and this clause would leave it in the power of the crown to raise such reduced regiments up to their complement, whenever it might seem proper. This measure would keep alive the idea of ballot; and as to the question of bounty, since it was not proposed, at present, to have recourse to it, he would leave it open for future discussion.—The bill was then read a third time, and Mr. W. brought up a clause, enabling his majesty, if he shall think fit, to direct the ballot to take place, for supplying vacancies in regiments reduced below their establishment. This clause was then made part of the bill, by way of rider, and the bill was passed.
[TRAINING BILL.]
The report of the committee on the Training bill was then brought up; and on the question being put, that the report be now read,
Sir Henry Mildmay
said, that he thought the country had reason to complain that ministers had delayed bringing this measure forward till so late a period of the session, when it was now impossible to ascertain the real sense of parliament on the subject. It was certainly desirable, considering the wild notions which have been lately introduced into the construction of the regular army, and that it was intended to suspend the laws which relate to the militia, that an efficient force should somewhere be created on which the country might rely in case of any unexpected emergence: but disapproving of the principles on which this bill was founded, and the provisions it contained, he did not consider it as that best calculated for such a purpose. It very much resembled the plan brought forward at the commencement of the war, in many respects, though it essentially differed from it both in the
905
906
907
Mr. Eyre
objected to the bill because it was unnecessary. We ought only to resort to compulsion in the last instance—cuncta prius tentanda. At present we could have a sufficient number of volunteers. He adverted to the injury which the labour of the country would sustain from withdrawing such a number of men from it for 24 days in the year. As to the volunteers, he believed they would be completely destroyed by this measure. The volunteers relieved their districts, but under this bill the system would have a contrary effect, for the young, the active, and those who had most time to spare, would avoid the ballot by going into the volunteers, and leave it to fall upon others. The rt. hon. gent. complained of having been misrepresented. It might be so; but how could he explain away the sarcasm in this bill, which reckoned 300,000 volunteers as nothing? This was one sarcasm on the volunteers which he could not by any ingenuity explain away. If, however, he adopted the clause proposed by the rt. hon. gent. below (Mr. Yorke), which went to relieve the counties from the onus in proportion to the number of volunteers, his objections would be in a great measure done away.
Sir R. Williams
asked, whether, in the present situation of the country, we were to give ministers no credit for saving 5 millions in 3 years? This measure did not destroy the volunteer system, but put it on its original footing; for it was well known that, at first, the volunteers were accepted only on condition of clothing themselves. Much as he regretted the loss of the late great minister; much as the country had to lament him; much as he deplored his death; yet, while the measures of the present ministry went to promote economy and the real interests of the country, as he thought they had, for the most part, hitherto done, they should always have his warm approbation. and cordial support.
Mr. Fonblanque
supported the bill. He denied that it could have any such tendency as that of putting down the volunteer system. He thought it was the bounden duty of his majesty's ministers to take every precaution for securing
908
Mr. Bastard
complained that the measure was brought forward without any estimate of its probable expence, or any ground whatever upon which even to guess what it would cost or how many men would be induced to train under it. There did not appear even a chance, that one-fourth of the number of 200,000 men would be secured by it, as .every man who could pay the fine would, no doubt, exempt himself from the service. He disliked the bill for its compulsory principle, and was convinced that the yeomanry of this country would at any time of public danger, he more ready to act under the direction of their landlord, and the gentlemen of the country, than under any compulsive system like this, the effect of which would be to render them sulky and discontented. The hon. gent. took occasion highly to commend the spirit and liberality of the duke of Northumberland, in arming and training, at his own expence, the tenantry on his estate, who, he was convinced, would be found to act in the day of danger under an illustrious branch of the house of Percy, as a 'Theban band;' and he verily believed, like their brave ancestors the 1500 valiant bowmen at Chevy-
909
Children yet unborn would rue
The fighting of that day.
General Loftus
was convinced of the necessity of the and only wished it had gone much farther. It was necessary to use every exertion winch the physical force of the country afforded for security at home, in order to enable us to act with effect abroad. Our chief danger from invasion lay in the vast extent of our coasts; and he would venture to assert, that it our armies were double or treble their present numbers they would not he sufficient to ensure our security without such a measure as this. Let it be recollected that though our fleets at present commanded the seas, yet it might happen not always to be the case; and even with all the force and vigilance by which we were guarded, yet one night might waft to our shores a formidable enemy. To encounter such an enemy on the first alarm, he could wish to see the population of every town, village, and district in the realm ready trained and fit to march at a moment's warning. He could wish to see them properly classed for the purpose, and he considered such a plan perfectly practicable, from what he herd seen of the populace in Ireland at the time of the rebellion, and how formidable a force they composed; and only with pikes. The same might be done with the populace here, or a great portion of them. When he recollected the important services performed by the volunteers of Ireland in that rebellion, and that they had by their loyalty and valour, saved the country to England, he could never he supposed to undervalue the services of volunteers in recommending the training of such a force as he described. But these men every where armed and ready to form on any part of the coast against ail enemy aided by detachments of artillery, before volunteers, quartered in towns, could be got together in force, must he of important service. As to the practicability of a formidable invasion suddenly, and in ships of war, he had a proof before his eyes; for being quartered at Yarmouth some years since, when admiral Duncan commanded a fleet in the North Sea, that gallant commander came into port, and swept the sea of all the Dutch fishing-boats in his way, to prevent their giving intelligence of his return to port. By desire of the admiral, he had marched down
910
Mr. Matthews
considered the measure as unnecessary and injurious. It was singular, he observed, that gentlemen on the other side talked of the expenditure of millions as of a matter of insignificance, and yet they rested upon economy as the great recommendation of their course of proceeding with respect to the volunteers. The hon. gent. remarked upon the facility with which the present ministers contrived to change their principles with their places.
Mr. Giles
vindicated the character of tho measure under consideration, to which, he maintained, the charge of involving any breach of faith towards the volunteers was totally inapplicable. This assertion the learned gent. sustained by referring to the levy-en-masse act, from which the charge was professedly deduced, and also to the circular letter front the secretary of state, which was published subsequent to that act. From both he inferred, that nothing like a permanent pledge was given that it a certain number of volunteers offered for any district, such district should, be uniformly exempted, from the operation of any measure of the nature of that before the house.
Mr. Ryder
considered the bill as wholly unnecessary at present, on a comparison with the period and circumstances under which the former training bill was brought forward by his right hon. friend; for at that time our regiments of the line were reduced to skeletons, our militia but just called out, after having been disbanded, and the regiments nut one-third full, or
911
Mr. C. Wynne
thought the best way would be to let the hon. gentlemen answer each other. Some of them objected to the bill,because it destroyed the system of equality which existed among the volunteers, while others objected to it because it introduced equality. With respect to putting the volunteers on the August allowance, he certainly approved it highly, as he thought it would be the greatest injustice, that one body of men should receive 85 days pay, when another would receive only 26. It had been said by some, that this measure would only tend to increase the volunteers, and, by others, that there would not be room for so great an augmentation. These, he thought, were reasons which might be allowed to pair off together; but he could not help observing, that there would be one advantage in it, namely, that the country would have the service of so many men for nothing. The hon. gent. concluded by saying, that his chief reason for approving of the measure was not the immediate advantage that would be derived from it, though he did not wish to undervalue the services of 200,000 men, trained for 26 days, but because he thought that it would infuse a military spirit into the country, which would render it invulnerable.
Sir Robert Lawley
thought this bill would have the effect of rendering the volunteer system permanent, and was therefore of opinion, that the discipline of the volunteers should be rendered permanent, with a view to which object he had an amendment to propose.
Lord Kirkwall
asserted, that the opinion which the volunteers had been naturally induced to form, as to the views of the right hon. author of this bill,had served materially to damp their zeal and diminish their numbers. In support of this assertion
912
Lord De Blaquiere
believed the measure under discussion to be the most inefficient and inoperative that had ever been presented to parliament; yet its inoperation was its only merit.
Lord Binning
called upon the learned gent. on the ministerial bench (the lord Advocate of Scotland) who was not present on a former evening when this measure was under discussion, to state his opinion upon the propriety of extending it to Scotland. If there was any benefit in the measure, the noble lord could not conceive that, neon any principle of fairness, Scotland should be refused a participation of it; and if it were a burthen, he did not think it fair that it should be confined altogether to England. There were many parts of Scotland to which this bill would be as applicable as to this country, and there was no danger of its meeting with anti such opposition as the execution of the militia law formerly did. But that opposition was not, in fact, the effect of the militia, but of that disaffection to the government which, he was happy to think, was now no more.
The Lord Advocate
was surprised at the line and tone adopted by his noble relation who had just sat down, and those who acted with him. They maintained, that this measure would involve a breach of faith, and an invasion of the king's prerogative; would be productive of great expence and oppression; acid yet, said they, 'give a. share of this abomination to Scotland.' They had been abusing the bill for sonic weeks, asserting that it would lead to confusion and pull down the volunteers; and yet, with all their professed regard for Scotland and the volunteers they would have the scope of its operation extended. As to the opposition to the law which had been alluded to by his noble relation, and which had been asserted to proceed from disaffection, he was not disposed to come in to that opinion. He was aware that disaffection, was often stated to prevail very generally Scotland, and that he himself Was de-
913
Mr. Canning
congratulated the learned lord on the opportunity which had been afforded hint of contributing, as much as in him lay, to extend the boon of this bill to Scotland, and could not help calling upon the house to notice the extraordinary system of carrying on the executive government, which they had now by accident discovered; as it appeared that the lord advocate of Scotland had not even been consulted with, as to the practicability of extending this measure to that part of the united kingdom; but had just declared, that he could, in eight-and-forty hours, frame the bill so as to be applicable to that purpose; whilst the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), by the united labour of this wonderful government, from whom so much was expected, and who were said to possess a concentration of all the talents and worth of the empire, had been four months in bringing it before the house,
914
Mr. Secretary Windham
began by taking notice of the expressions which the right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning), so frequently indulged in, about ministers claiming all the talent and weight in the country. This was a thing which appeared peculiarly to rankle in that right hon. gent.'s mind, and in the minds of those who sat near him, and entered with so much rapture into most of their speeches. Neither ministers, nor any of their immediate friends, had ever made use of any expression that amounted to such a claim. He could not say whether it was, an injudicious friend, or a splenetic
915
Pulceris exigui jactú?
916
Mr. R. Dundas
wished that it should be distinctly understood front the lord advocate, whether it was intended to bring forward a bill this session, for including Scotland in the levy for training? or whether it was now intended, for the first time, to depart from the system of uniformly defending the country, and making all parts contribute to that great object?
The Lord Advocate
replied, he had no doubt that the measure was applicable to Scotland; but it did not rest with him to introduce a bill, in defiance of the right hon, secretary of state; and he thought the honour of his country sufficiently justified by the understanding, that a bill would hereafter be brought in, for the purpose of embracing it in the operation of the act.
Mr. Rose
jun. said, that although the opinions of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), had not much weight with the volunteers when he sat on the opposition benches, it was a very different thing now he was a minister. If they considered him not friendly to their establishment, that circumstance must tend considerably to reduce their numbers.—The question was then very generally called for, and the house divided on the question, "That the word 'now' stand part of this question;" upon which it appeared that there were, Ayes 130: Noes
53.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, July 6.
[CUSTOM-HOUSE FEES BILL.]
The order being read for their lordships going into a committee on this bill, the chair was
917
The Archbishop of Canterbury
expressed his disapprobation, in a great degree, of what was proposed. He expatiated on the importance of a due observance of certain solemn church festivals and holidays, besides the Sabbath. He was not an advocate, in any point of view, for an excessive number of holidays such as were observed in the church previously to the reformation; a number of these were, he thought, very properly abolished; on the other hand, there were several which, he thought, a due respect and reverence for the holy religion of which we were members, should inculcate the observance. On this principle, he would wish that, perhaps, three or four more holidays were retained, beside those already allowed in the bill. Those to which he chiefly referred were holidays more particularly commemorative of the history of our Saviour. Before, however, he moved any amendment with respect to these, he should wish to hear from any noble lord who supported the bill, the objections which he entertained to suffering the other holidays in the protestant calendar, to stand in the present bill.
Lord Grenville
argued in defence of the measure, in the shape in which it came up from the other house. In a great degree, the precedent of former regulating acts of the kind, was followed with respect to the present. The consideration of such days as the description of persons to whom the bill applied were in the habit of devoting to divine service, was kept in view, in framing the present measure. Many of the holidays, which, as far as Custom-house attendance went, were proposed to be abolished, were not appropriated by those persons for divine service, but for purposes of idle amusement or relaxation. The object was to compel those persons who were to execute the duties of the respective offices, duly and diligently to attend to the same. The inconvenience and disadvantage which the present number of holidays at the Custom-house produced to commercial men, was inconceivable. At times, and on days where-in all other species of commercial business was in a train of regular transaction, the doors of the Custom-house were shut. The merchant who could regularly perform all his other business, was unable to transact that, often most important part of it, which appertained to the Custom-house. After
918
The Archbishop of Canterbury
observed, that after what had fallen from the noble lord, he despaired of being able to introduce an amendment into the bill, for the observance of those holidays, he had at first in contemplation. There were some particular days, which he still remained strongly of opinion should be observed, such as those days for which regular church service was established. Notwithstanding, however, the objections which had been offered, he hoped their lordships would still agree to the addition of at least two holidays, which related to points essentially connected with the history of our Saviour. The first of these was the Epiphany, and which he should propose for insertion, as an amendment.
The Bishop of St. Asaph
supported the observations of his grace of Canterbury. Those holidays which were commemorative of the earliest and most important facts in the history of the Gospel, should, at least, be retained; those especially which referred to the history of our Saviour's own life, should be retained; he meant at the Custom-house. Were those suffered to remain, he would not, in that respect, be so anxious about the rest. The days to which we undertood the right rev. prelate to refer were, the Epiphany, the Annunciation, the Ascension, and the Nativity of St. John the Baptist. In what he advanced upon the point, he observed, he was not actuated by a puritanical desire for a rigid observance of holidays. He knew there were some wherein an idle or improper observance of the holiday did more harm than good; for that reason he was not unwilling to contract the number. He was aware, that in some cases the commissioners took the liberty to order the attendance of clerks on Sundays. In cases of urgent necessity, with respect to public business, he, perhaps, should not decidedly object to that —but upon the grounds on which he had stated, as well as those advanced by the right rev. prelate, he was of opinion, the holidays to which he referred should, at least, be retained on the present occasion.—The question was put on the first amendment, and negatived. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, but no division took place, and the bill passed through the committee and was reported.
919
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING LORD RODNEY.] Lord Grenville
moved the order of the day for taking into consideration his majesty's message relative to lord Rodney. His lordship stated that a pension of 2000l. per annum had been granted to the first lord Rodney for the eminent services rendered by him to his majesty and the public; 1000l. was to devolve after his death to his widow and younger children; the remaining 1000l. to his eldest son for his natural life. His eldest son, the late lord Rodney, enjoyed the pension but a short time after his father's death, and it was now proposed to continue that pension to the present lord. There were several who heard him that were old enough to remember the brilliant victory gained by the distinguished officer who first possessed this title, a victory which, independent of its own importance, was of the most essential benefit to the country at that time, when the circumstances of the country were not the most pleasing, and when our military character had been lessened. It was true, that the pension referred to in his majesty's message was granted for services antecedent to that victory, but not on that account the less important, which, on the contrary, entitled that distinguished officer to every mark of approbation from his country. As to the principle on which these remunerations were granted, there could not exist the slightest doubt of its being one of the best principles on which parliament could act. A reward of this nature granted for eminent services diffused an additional spirit over a whole profession, and stimulated every one engaged in it, to seize every opportunity of exerting to the utmost his skill and ability in the service of his country, confident that his success would receive a grateful reward, and that, if he fell, an ample provision would be made for his family. Public economy was at all times necessary, but that was the best public economy which afforded the best assurance of public services, and nothing could be more important than that those who were fighting the battles of their country should be thoroughly convinced, that if they were not wanting to their country their country would not he wanting to them, and that whilst England expected every man to do his duty, she was at all times ready to do her duty to them. He thought it was at all times adviseable, where his majesty was advised to bestow a peerage for eminent services, and where a pension was granted
920
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, July 6.
[MASTERS IN CHANCERY BILL.]
The Master of the Rolls rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for augmenting the salaries of the masters in ordinary, belonging to the court of chancery, and also for granting a certain provision to such as may be or become unfit, from age or infirmity, for the discharge of the duty attached to their office. The sum necessary for this purpose, the learned gent. proposed to have made up from the interest of the money belonging to suitors, which the house must be aware was in the hands of the masters. This interest accrued from the vesting of such money in government securities; and the surplus beyond the purposes to which it was at present assigned would be quite sufficient to answer the ends which his motion had in view. The salary which the learned gent. proposed to grant to superannuated masters, he mentioned to be 1500l. a year.— The first motion being agreed to, the learned gent. proposed another, the object of which was to grant an addition to the establishment in the accomptant general's office, namely, that four clerks should be added, and that the salaries of all the clerks should be augmented, that the principal clerks should be allowed 500l. a year, the second 400l. the third 300l. and the junior clerks 180l. This augmentation of salary, combined with a sum which he thought necessary to defray the expence attendant upon the increased business in this office, and to satisfy the executors of the late Mr. Warner, for such expences incurred by him,
921
[TRAINING BILL.] Mr. Windham
moved the third reading of this bill.
Mr. Yorke
pursuant to notice, proposed a clause to enable the government to suspend the execution of this act in such districts as might offer a sufficient number of volunteers. If the act before the house were to pass in its present shape, he was very much afraid that the volunteers would consider themselves deprived of that protection for which, from their services, they were entitled to look. The general understanding was, that the object of this bill was to substitute compulsory for voluntary services, and if the clause he submitted, which was to be found in the original bill, were expunged, there was too much ground to warrant that understanding. Were the right hon. secretary to adopt this clause, he was persuaded that the bill would be much more palatable even to its friends. But, however the clause might be disposed of, it was his wish to bring it up, in order that it should appear as a protest on his part, and that of his friends, against a measure in his and their judgment likely to produce the most mischievous consequences.
Mr. Windham
opposed the clause, as calculated to defeat the principle of this bill, which was not the substitution of a compulsory for a voluntary force; but the addition of the one to the other. As to those districts in which the volunteers were particularly numerous, there was a provision in the bill which enabled his majesty to return such districts in calling out, only so many as he saw occasion for; and therefore the object of the right hon. gent.'s clause was, in a great measure, answered.
Mr. W. Smith
was only sorry that the measure did not go far enough, by proposing to train the effective population of the country. His opinion was, that even children at school should be taught military
922
Mr. Yorke
then proposed a clause, to winch he hoped there would he no objection, that every man called out under this bill should take the oath of allegiance. Such was, he observed, the clause of the former act, and such was uniformly the case with regard to the volunteers.
Mr. Francis
asked whether, if a man should refuse taking this oath he should therefore be exempted from training?
Lord Castlereagh
professed himself really surprized to hear the supposition supported, that any of his majesty's subjects would hesitate to take that oath, which by the common law it was the bounden duty of all to take, at as early a period of life as possible; and he would be glad to have the performance of that duty superinduced by any act of this nature.
Mr. Francis
said, that he did not suppose that any individual would hesitate to take the oath alluded to, from a principle of disaffection; but if a man were conscientiously to decline it, what would be the consequence? Was he, therefore, to be excused from the training, or was he to be punished? If the latter, the measure would be compulsory indeed, with a vengeance.
Mr. Windham
saw no necessity for proposing this oath; conceiving that every one of his majesty's subjects was equally bound to the duties which the oath prescribed, whether he took it or not; and he rather apprehended that the proposition of it might excite alarm among the more ignorant part of the community, and so defeat the object of the bill.
Mr. Yorke
never heard of any alarm that was excited by the proposition of tins oath to the volunteers, and why then apprehend it in this case?
The Lord Advocate
was at a loss to conceive the object of this clause. Compulsion was deprecated by those who proposed it, and yet they now enforced this oath. If, however, a man refused to take it, it did not appear from the bill what consequence was to follow.
Mr. Yorke
observed, that a man was bound by the common law to take the oath of allegiance, and in this case if a man refused such oath, he would of course be subject to the penalties which attached to a man refusing to be trained.
923
Mr. Perceval
corroborated this observation, and begged the house and the right hon. secretary to recollect the salutary consequences which resulted from the administration of oaths during those unhappy scenes which were gone by, he hoped, never to return. But a statesman, framing a permanent measure like the present, should provide against even the possible recurrence of such an evil; and, remembering that men who took the oath of allegiance were always the most difficult to draw into the societies of disaffection, he would take care to extend that additional guard to loyalty.—The house divided upon the clause, Ayes, 38; Noes, 84. Majority against the clause 46. The bill was then passed.
[KING'S MESSAGE RESPECTING THE ROYAL FAMILY.]
On the motion of lord H. Petty, the house then resolved itself into a committee of Supply. His majesty's message was then read, requesting that the house would transfer the sums paid to the younger branches of his family, from the aggregate to the consolidated fund; and would be pleased to enable him to make such farther increase to their incomes, as circumstances might render proper.
Lord H. Petty
then said, that the first part of his majesty's message sufficiently explained its object, and did not require much comment. A provision had been made for his royal highness the duke of Gloucester and the princess Sophia, out of what was called the aggregate fund, which was since transferred to the consolidated fund. This was discovered on the death of the late duke of Gloucester, when it was proposed to continue his income to the present duke; but as the aggregate fund did now exist, it became necessary to transfer it, by the interference of parliament, over to the consolidated fund. On this subject, he thought no doubt or hesitation could possibly exist, as it was only meant that that should be made good which parliament had formerly thought fit to grant. But the message did not stop here, and he flattered himself that, on due consideration, the house would feel as little hesitation respecting that part of it which called upon them to make such adequate provision for certain branches of the royal family, as was called for by the increased expences of the times. It was not proposed to include the duke of York in this additional grant. Such provision had already been made for him by parliament as he conceived sufficient, and he had generously declined coming forward with any claim on the liberality of the
924
Mr. Rose
made some observations on the nature of the aggregate fund, and expressed his hope, that the resolution would
925
Lord H. Petty
then moved, that there be granted out of the consolidated fund, sum not exceeding 7000l. per annum to the princess Charlotte of Wales, during his majesty's life; and that of the prince of Wales; also a sum not exceeding 4000l. a year to the duchess dowager of Gloucester. With regard to his highness the duke of Gloucester, he said, that it had also been thought fit to propose to raise his income in proportion to that of the royal dukes, and he therefore moved, that a sum not exceeding 14,000l. a year be granted to the duke of Gloucester, in lieu of 8000l. which he at present enjoyed; and lastly, that the grant to the princess Sophia of Gloucester, formerly charged on the aggregate fund, be transferred to the consolidated fund.—The several resolutions were unanimously agreed to.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA—OUDE CHARGE.] Lord Temple
moved the order of the day, for a committee of the whole house on the Oude Charge. On the question that the Speaker do now leave the chair,
Mr. Paull
said, he did not mean to give any opposition to the motion, but rose to call the attention of the house to the very extraordinary mode of proceeding adopted by the noble lord. This was the first instance in the annals of parliament, of any member of the house taking out of the hands of another member any proceeding of this description.
Lord Temple
felt it necessary to justify himself from the charge made upon him by hon. gent. He had never called on the house to come to any resolution on this subject, but when the hon. gent. seemed indisposed to bring the question to any decision. All he had done, was with a view, when the charge had been brought forward, when the evidence in support of it had been produced, when that evidence was printed, to come to a speedy decision on that charge. All he asked on the part of his noble friend, was, what the meanest, even the most guilty individual of the community would be entitled to in a court of justice, namely a speedy decision on the merits of his use
926
Lord Folkestone
said, that he could not have expected that any person would have proposed coming to an immediate decision on this subject, in the present state of the question, of the house, and of the session. Obstructions had been thrown in the way of the hon. gent.; and when at last the papers were in the hands of the members, he would ask, whether the other business of the house had allowed them sufficient time to come to a decision upon them? Besides, the Oude Charge was connected with others, and would derive support and illustration from the evidence in support of them. On this account, the whole discussion should be entered into at once, and the questions respecting lord Wellesley's conduct be decided at the same time. We had been told that the eyes of India were directed to this house, and he would ask, should a question, involving the interests and independance of so many Indian princes, he hastily decided in an empty house? Besides, from a cause, which every man must concur in lamenting, a right hon. gent. was necessarily absent, and he thought it material to know the opinion of the leading men in his majesty's councils on the subject of the charge. He implored the house, therefore, to defer their decision at this late period of the session, and under the present circumstances of the case; and, as the only way of getting rid of the question, he moved, that the house do now adjourn.
Colonel Wood
was surprized at the charge of precipitation made by the noble lord who spoke last. Never had any charge been brought forward in that house by any member who had met so much indulgence as the hon. member who had brought forward this charge. It appeared to him a most extraordinary proposition, after the house had been so long occupied with the question, to defer it to next session. He should now vote to come to some decision upon the Oude charge.
Dr. Laurence
observed, that he could not sit silent when he heard it asserted, that the hon. member who had brought forward the charge had received every indulgence, while in truth he was goaded at one time,
927
Mr. Canning
should not enter into the merits of the charge, but confine himself strictly to the question before the house. He could not but notice the very extraordinary menace of the learned doctor, powerful when coming from any member, but still more powerful in his lips, and from his manner of expressing it. Any, the least considerable member of the house, possessed that power; but it would be for the house to determine whether it should rescind a solemn decision on such a ground. The learned doctor, however, had taken his tremendous oath, he did not know on what altar, and was determined to bring the subject forward; but it would be for the house to decide how far it would be desirable to adopt his course of proceeding.—Before they should come to a decision on the question for the Speaker leaving the chair, they ought to consider what was the situation of lord Wellesley. The charge had been impending over him during the whole of this session, and the business was brought forward at the chosen time and pleasure, as every accusation indeed must be, of the accuser, If the principle of the learned doctor Were to be admitted, no decision could be had upon any part of complicated charges, embracing the whole policy of an extended administration, until the whole could be taken into consideration. So that the business might
928
Dr. Laurence
explained. The altar on which he had taken his oath was, the altar of justice, an altar perhaps unknown to the hon. gentleman.
Mr. R. Thornton
said, the noble earl (Temple), seemed to wish that some determination should be come to this night. He
929
The Master of the Rolls
supported the motion for an immediate decision. He considered the charge as now ripe for a decision, and therefore it was competent for the house to enter upon it, however late might be the period of the session. It was contrary to every principle of justice, that when the charge was before the house, and all the materials by which it was supported, the person accused should not be allowed to call for a decision. The question was, indeed, of importance, but it had already been 6 months before the house, and they were surely ill qualified for performing their most important functions, if they were not now prepared to decide upon it. By the habeas corpus act, the meanest individual could call for the speedy decision of the law, and the noble lord was equally entitled to demand the determination of the house. If it were the object of the hon. gent. who had brought forward the charge to carry it beyond the present session, he thought it the duty of the house to disappoint that object.
Mr. Secretary Windham
was against going into the committee, or urging the house to a hasty decision on the subject; and he vindicated the principles avowed by his hon. and learned friend near him (Dr. Laurence), of which the speech of a right hon. gent. was a complete misrepresentation from one end to the other. That the ques-
930
931
932
Mr. Paull
said, it was not his intention to have trespassed upon the attention of the house that night with a single word on the subject; but feeling it necessary to say something in answer to the charges of delay and procrastination imputed to him by a right hon. and learned gent. (the Master of the Rolls) he rose to vindicate himself from an imputation so unfounded. His first motion for papers was on the 25th of June, 1805; and it was not until the 20th of May last, that any of the criminating documents were laid before the house. For the truth of this he appealed to the house; and he appealed also to the noble lord lately at the head of the board of controul, whether he had not been incessant in his applications to him to forward the production of papers in his department; and whether the noble lord had not told him, in March last, that it was a matter of question and doubt whether some of the papers for which he had moved, and those the most important, would be produced at all? As soon as he could obtain the chief papers for which he had moved, in five days afterwards he laid his first charge upon the table; but there were many other papers for which he had moved, which were not produced to this day—papers to prove the most exorbitant and extraordinary demands upon the nabob of Oude, to the amount of 300,000l. He moved for the accounts six different times; and all that he had yet been able to obtain, from all the diligence that could be used at India-house, was a return respecting the 27th light dragoons, which he found to be a most false and exaggerated account. He had said to the house, that he would be ready to bring forward his
933
934
Mr. Perceval
said, he understood the hon. member who brought forward this charge, to object that the house should be the judge of the fittest time to form its own decision upon the subject, and to say he would tirely withdraw himself from any interference in discussing the subject, unless he was to be the judge of the fitness of the time for the decision. In such a case, he (Mr. Perceval) was of opinion the hon. member would abandon the duty he had undertaken, and incur the blame of any erroneous decision to which the house might be led, without the light Which he was enabled to throw upon the subject. If the hon. member, however, would pledge himself to bring forward the investigation at any future day during the present session of parliament, at any reasonable distance, when he should have his thoughts better arranged upon the subject, he, for one, should not object to adjourning the further proceedings to such a day; and therefore he requested to know the hon. member's determination?
Mr. Paull
declared he had not the most distant wish for delay; and that, if the remaining papers were produced for which he had moved respecting six British regiments in India, and which would furnish proofs of the most exorbitant and inconceivable extortion upon the nabob of Oude, he would be ready to go on with the charge next day, or in a week, just as the house should choose; but recollecting the delays and disappointments he had already experienced, he would not pledge himself to any particular day, until tire papers were before the house.
Mr. W. Smith
thought that, after what had fallen from the hon. gent. it would be a mockery of justice to proceed. The hon. gent. in his situation, could not fix any day. He regretted the delay; but as to the marquis Wellesley, it could not be too often repeated that it was damnum sine injuria. He thought that the friends of marquis Wellesley could not desire to proceed in the present situation of the case.
Sir A. Wellesley
declared, that nothing could be more opposite to the wishes and feelings of himself, or his noble relation, than that the house should decide upon this charge, without having before them all the testimony the honourable gentleman wished to adduce; but as he had reason to believe
935
Mr. R. Thornton
feeling himself thus called on, said he could not speak with accuracy as to the precise documents moved for being at the India-house; but he rather believed some fresh documents would be found there, and that the house ought not to proceed to final decision until further search should be made.
Mr. W. Pole
supported the argument of his hon. relation, and wished to have a clear answer from some of those gentlemen who had been in the India direction, as to the existence of such returns.
Mr. Paull
was not desirous of the returns of the strength of those six regiments. He only wished for the accounts of the sums charged as paid to them; and was confident such returns must have been made to the directors.
Mr. Grant
said, that though he was not now in office, he was fully confident the accounts of pay must be in the India-house; but that the order for furnishing the returns of the strength of the regiments ought to have been directed to the war-office, where they would be found. He was for proceeding with the utmost deliberation upon a subject, whereon hung the fate of India. He thought the house could not, in so thin an attendance, comprising so many of the noble marquis's friends, and at so late a period he session, come to a decision, consistency with the decorum which belonged to its deliberative justice; but that, if a decision was to be pressed upon the subjects, there ought to be a call of the house, for which he, as one, should vote.
Lord Castlereagh
said, he could not conceive that the absence of papers, relating to the charge against the marquis Wellesley, of having fraudently exacted an undue sum fro the vizier of Oude, was. sufficient to warrant delay; as both the fact and the in-
936
Dr. Laurence
spoke to order, and thought that after an order of that house had been six times made for their production, every member was interested in seeing that they were procured.
Lord Castlereagh
expressed his surprise at the interruption, and thought that he was correct in shewing, from the oral evidence, which the house had had the advantage of, that the papers were not necessary, and did not contain any thing that could, by possibility, affect marquis Wellesley.
Mr. Martin (of Kinsale)
thought that the papers might have great relevancy to the charge, as shaped by the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull), and that it was extremely wrong to force him to proceed, without what he himself thought sufficient to support his allegations.
Mr. Burton
said, that after the evidence of the accountant general, the charge made upon the nabob, was, upon the whole, in his favour; all the evidence the hon. gent. wished to collect from the papers, might be admitted by the friends of marquis Wellesley, without any prejudice to him.
Sir A. Wellesley
said, he was perfectly willing on the part of the noble marquis, to admit it; and therefore called upon the hon. gent. then to proceed.
Mr. Paull
said, when the accounts were produced, he should shew that a sum of 470,000l. was fraudulently charged upon the nabob, by colonel Scott; having been some years after called upon to make up accounts against him, upon the basis of those estimates prepared by capt. Salmon, the colonel had been instructed to claim that excessive sum, unless the nabob would consent to cede his territory, in which case he was only to require the sum really due.
Mr. Johnstone
said, the papers were
937
Sir J. Newport
deprecated the bringing forward of supplementary charges, and thought that the house, if they tolerated it, would never be able to come to a decision. He was of opinion that they should then proceed.
The Solicitor General
said, the question was not if the decision upon these charges were to be deferred until the next session, but if the house would proceed this day to determine on an accusation, in which the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) said, he was not prepared to advance; so that the true enquiry was, if in this stage of the business the matter were to be taken out of his hands, in the absence of the information of which the house ought to be possessed in order to form its opinion. He could perfectly understand such an attempt, if this were a case of vexatious delay; but was this the complaint? The papers required were not obtained until the 20th of May; on the 25th of that month the charge was brought; on the 28th it was printed, and the evidence was only closed on Friday last; even at that moment the written testimony called for was not on the table, although the application was made for what was yet deficient as early as the 5th of June. Who could then seriously assert that there had been any unnecessary procrastination on the part of the hon. gent.? But it was said by the friends of the noble marquis, that from their knowledge of the documents sought, they would not at all conduce to support the charges. Were not others to obtain the same information, in order to satisfy their minds and come to the conclusions to which such premises should lead? If by the endeavour now made, the noble marquis should be acquitted, it would be such an acquittal as would afford him very little consolation; he was, it was to be presumed, an innocent man, and if he were so, justice to him required that this subject should be dismissed in a very different way; but it was not only justice to an individual that demanded it, it was justice to the collective body of that house, that required that no such precipitate decision should be formed; and the honour and character of the house were immediately concerned in the present proceeding.
Mr. Hutchinson
thought the house would disgrace itself by acceding, to the motion of the noble lord (Temple) and that it would
938
Lord Temple
said, that after what had passed, he should not persist in calling upon the house to resolve itself into a committee that night, but would propose to defer his motion till Friday, by which time the par papers might be before the house, and he hoped the business would be proceeded in.—This produced a long and desultory conversation, which ended in withdrawing the question for adjournment, and agreeing that the committee on the Oude charge should stand for next Friday; but Mr. Paull would not pledge himself to bring the business forward this session, without a call of the house, in which he was warmly supported by Mr. Windham, and several other members.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, July 7.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA] Mr. Paull
brought forward a Supplementary Charge against the marquis Wellesley with respect to his treatment of the Zemindar of Sassnee, and some other Zemindars and Rajahs therein named.—The title of the charge being read, and the question being put on the motion for its being printed,
Sir A. Wellesley
stated, that he had no objection to the charge being printed, but he should take the opportunity to request the hon. gent. would inform him and the house, whether it was his intention to bring forward any motion in the course of the present session, upon the charge now before the house? He had conceived it necessary for him to attend regularly in expectation of such a motion, but as he had also professional duties to perform, he should be very glad to know, whether it was necessary for him to continue this constant attendance?
Mr. Paull
said, it was his most anxious wish to come to a decision on the Oude Charge, if possible, in the present session. There were still, however, very important accounts which he had moved for, and which were not furnished. He had called at the India-house on Saturday last, to facilitate them, but found that it would be near two months before they could be produced. He could not, therefore, in the present state of the session, and when the attendance was so small, give any pledge, that he should make a motion this session: but if that was impossible, he should pledge himself to do so at the commencement of
939
Mr. W. Pole
thought it would not be proper for the friends of the noble marquis to press for any hasty decision of the house, after those circumstances had been stated. Their object was not to gain a premature decision, but to obtain the solemn decision of a full house, after a minute and deliberate examination of all the documents and evidence which the hon. member could bring forward to support his case. If they ever appeared to wish to press a speedy decision, it was merely when they supposed that the hon. gent. had produced all his documents, and that the house had had sufficient time to consider them, and form their judgment upon them. It never was the intention of his noble friend (lord Temple) to take, in any degree, the management of the business from the hands of the hon. gent. nor did the friends of the noble marquis wish to press the decision at all sooner than was necessary for the examination of all the documents. They had conceived, however, that all the documents moved for had been before the house, except one military account, and in that case they had offered, in order to save time, to admit every fact or inference which the hon. gent. could draw from, it. He did not object to this supplemental charge being printed, but wished to know whether the hon. gent. had now moved for all the documents that he thought necessary?
Mr. Sheridan
begged leave to trouble the house with a few words in consequence his having been accused by the hon. gent. with having abandoned the subject of Carnatic, and hinted that this had been done since he had come into administration. The fact was, and he thought the hon. gent. might have known it very well, that he had abandoned that subject when lord Powis was appointed, or understood to have been appointed, lord lieutenant of Ireland. But he had not abandoned his
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Mr. Paull
pledged himself, that if the right hon. gent. did not bring the business forward, he should do so, in the next session.—After some further explanations, the motion for printing the charge was agreed to.
[DEBTS OF THE NABOBS OF ARCOT.] Mr. Hobhouse
moved, " That the bill for enabling the commissioners acting in execution of an agreement, made between the East India company and the private creditors of the nabobs of the Carnatic, the better to carry the same into effect," be read a second time.
Mr. Francis
immediately addressed himself to the house in a speech, which we are sorry we cannot state more in detail for want of sufficient memoranda on such a multiplicity of topics and arguments, as his knowledge of the subject enabled him to bring forward; the general tenor of it was to the following effect: That he could not do perfect justice to the question without entering into many particulars, which, however necessary, were not likely to attract the attention of the house. Yet the subject was of great public importance, though the bill, now introduced, professed to be nothing more than a private bill for the purpose of giving effect and validity to a settlement of an account between parties, in which the public interest was not concerned. These parties were the supposed creditors of the late nabobs of the Carnatic on one side, and the Directors of the East India company on the other; as if, when once
they
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*
*This gentleman appears to have been employed and trusted by the nabob, and finally, as he says, ruined in his service. His letters discover many curious anecdotes. In one of them, addressed to the nabob himself, he says (p. 153), "I will not, for the present, mention the bribes given by your highness on account of the unhappy business of the arrest of lord Picot; but the amount of them make a great part of your highness's new consolidated debt" In short, he lays open a scene of bribery, fraud, and extortion, which fully account for the enormous sum of nine millions sterling paid to, or still claimed by these creditors.
944
†
†Vide Carnatic Papers, 2. 131.
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Mr. Sullivan
explained the nature of the connection of his relation of the same name with the nabob of Arcot, as originating with colonel M'Lean, who died in the service of that Eastern prince.
Lord H. Petty
was desirous that the bill should be read a 2nd time, principally for two reasons; first, because the unjust claims would be more easily detected than at a later time; and next, because the just demands would be more easily ascertained. If the bill went into a committee, and no other person should suggest the amendments that appeared to him necessary, he pledged himself to bring them forward; they principally respected the mode of examination, the nomination of a parliamentary commissioner, and the periodical reports to be made on the progress of the business.
Mr. Grant
considered the existing agreement between the India Company and the creditors under discussion, perfectly legal
947
Sir A. Wellesley
approved of the authority given to commissioners under the bill to discharge these claims; and took the opportunity of signifying his approbation of the late treaty with Holkar, under the auspices of sir G.Barlow.
Mr. R. Thornton
said, the directors highly approved of treaty, and he had no doubt, on Wednesday, a vote of approbation would be passed in compliment to the governor general.
Dr. Laurence
commented upon what he had no hesitation in terming the scandalous mode in which the debts to which the bill referred were originated; and particularly upon claim of Mr. Sullivan, which, as it appeared from an explanation of this evening, arose out of the desire of this Mr. Sullivan to create an undue influence at the India House. It was an insult to the. under-standing of the people of England, or of the India Company, to call on them to pay such a claim. What had they to do with it? And yet the hon. gent. who gave the explanation, seemed to feel quite satisfied of its equity. The agreement alluded to by the hon. director (Mr. Grant) was not, he was certain, at all such as that hon. exdirector described. In fact, it was not legally binding unless sanctioned by parliament.
Mr.H. Martin
stated, that the public had a direct interest in the revenue of the East India Co. to the amount of 500,000l. annually. Neither the board of controul, nor the Court of Directors therefore, could have any legal authority to interfere with a measure which might naturally affect the interests of the public.
Mr. Hobhouse
in explanation declared, that the commissioners only desired more powers with a view to exclude all frauqulent claims which might be preferred, to enable them to hunt out iniquity through all its mazes, and to render ample justice to the legal and equitable creditor.—After some further conversation, the gallery was cleared for a division, but the bill was read a second time by the general assent of the members present.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, July 8.
[AFFAIRS OF INDIA.—RECALL OF SIR
948
The order of the day having been read, for the lords to be summoned to attend this day,
Lord Melville
rose and spoke as follows:—My lords, I regret much, that the house is not in possession of those official documents which would enable us clearly to see our way in the discussion of the important subject to which I think it my duty now to call your lordships' attention. For want of these we are obliged to grope in the dark, and take the prevailing rumours as the grounds of our arguments. I shall first, however, be obliged to give some kind of historical account of the transaction on which the discussion of this night will principally turn,— When lord Cornwallis had undertaken the government of India, and when in his zeal for the public service, he left the banks of the Ganges, and made a distant journey for the purpose of giving effect to the negotiations for peace, sir George Barlow, considering the delicate state of his lordship's health, and the danger he exposed himself to in his country's service, thought it proper to quit the seat of government, in order to assist his lordship in the negotiations; and in case of that event taking place, which has since happened, to receive his dying instructions, and to carry them into effect without delay. Sir G. Barlow had then for his instructions not only the system which lord Cornwallis actually pursued, but the orders of the Court of Directors, and the instructions given to general Lake on the 19th of September. The general principle of the negotiation with the native powers, as also the system of retrenching unnecessary expenditure, was begun by the marquis Cornwallis, and was afterwards pursued by his successor, sir G. Barlow. Such was the situation of India, as it was known in this country upon the 29th of January last, when his majesty's ministers with great wisdom and propriety, considering that it was not proper to leave. India without the full benefit of those powers of government which had been always confided to governors general, recommended to the court of directors to give those powers to sir G. Barlow, in order that he might not be fettered either in conducting the negotiations, or in carrying on the government in India. With this recommendation, the Court of Directors readily and cheerfully complied. No appointment was ever less complained of, and no dispatch had since been received from India that did not convey the most
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Lord Grenville rose
and remarked, that in the whole course of the noble lord's speech, not a single word had been said which at all alluded to the resolution which was then proposed to the house. For the other resolution no ground had been stated
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Lord Hawkesbury
said, that if any public inconvenience were stated as likely to result from the production of the correspondence moved for, that would be a sufficient reason for negativing the production. If, on the contrary, no public inconvenience were stated, and any advantage to the public were likely to result from the production, he did not think those motives of private feeling entitled to so much weight. He agreed that the person who brought forward any motion for papers, was obliged to make out a
prima facie
963
Lord Minto
admitted, that if the papers
964
Lord Eldon
was of opinion, that the communication of the warrant of recal to the governor general was sufficient to supersede his powers, and looked upon that clause in the act which required the publication of the warrant in the Calcutta Gazette as unnecessary. He contended however, that, according to the true intent and construction of the act, the warrant ought not to have been detained in this country, after a convenient time for transmitting it to India, when executed by his majesty. He thought, therefore, that the appointment in this instance ought not to pass without inquiry.
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
contended, that if ever the principle, that no servant of the company should be appointed governor general, had been acted upon, it was by the noble viscount himself (lord Melville). That noble lord might not have promulgated that doctrine; but all his recommendations, whilst he presided over the affairs of India, proved that to be his impression. In the appointment of Marquis Wellesley, the noble viscount had done well for the public service, who-
965
Lord Melville
in justification of his conduct in the several instances alluded to, stated the motives by which he had been actuated. He had never laid it down as a rule, that the servants of the company were not proper persons to be appointed to the government general. Neither had he asserted that they ought exclusively to be appointed to that high office. His conduct spewed that neither had been his rule of action. Whoever should be appointed, ought to be a person of character and of abilities to fill the important office. He had argued with a view to a rumour which had gone abroad that the objection to sir G. Barlow was, his having been a servant to the company. He should say, however, that the suspicions he had entertained on the subject had not been weakened by any thing he had heard in that debate. If the papers should be granted, and they should confirm those suspicions, he intended to found upon them an ulterior proceeding.
Lord Ellenborough
could not sit silent when he heard an objection started which he did not expect to be repeated. The warrant could have no effect till communicated to the party; and he agreed with the learned lord (Eldon), that the clause for publication at Calcutta was nugatory. That the communication gave legal effect to the warrant, would appear in the instance of the judges in the event of the demise of the crown. He might on such an event be in the discharge of his duty in an extreme part of the country, and if his commission could be vacated without communication, any exercise of his power after such demise, in ordering a man convicted of a capital offence for execution,
966
Lord Redesdale
contended, that there was an essential difference between the warrant of recal of a lord lieutenant of Ireland, and of a governor general. The former was to have effect only upon the arrival of the new lord lieutenant in Ireland, whereas the latter was to have an immediate effect. It was an improvident discretion therefore, on the part of his majesty's ministers, to retain the warrant in trust, and he maintained that it had been kept only with a view to constrain the court of directors to choose another governor general and council.
The Lord Chancellor
expressed his surprise at the violent strain that had been adopted. The former objection was, that an interregnum existed, the present objection lay against the means that had been resorted to to prevent that interregnum. The construction put upon the statute by the noble lords who supported the motion, instead of tending to the security of our distant government, seemed only to perplex mens' minds, and was founded on a quibble. The king had unquestionably the power of recalling a governor general; but the appointment was vested for good purposes, in tie great corporation. The warrant of recal was to be communicated to the court of directors in eight days, and here was an interregnum without any objection being made to it. The directors had two months to appoint another, a space of interregnum to which no objection was
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Lord Eldon
observed in reply, that there would have been no difficulty in framing the warrant so as to avoid the inconvenience of an interregnum. If an illegal assumption of power was to be denominated from the woolsack a conundrum or quibble, he should feel it incumbent on himself to bring that principle to some specific form before the house.—The. question being put, the motions made by the noble viscount were rejected without a division.
968
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, July 8.
[GRANTS TO THE ROYAL FAMILY.] Mr. Hobhouse
brought up the report of the resolutions of the committee of supply, settling the augmentations to be made to the provisions for the different branches of the royal family, &c. On their being read a second time,
Mr. Ridley Colborne rose
to make a few observations on the nature of the grants which the resolutions contained. He thought the house should pause before they voted away such large sums of the public money, at a period of such peculiar difficulty. Some of the royal dukes were already in possession of regiments, rangerships, and emoluments arising from various offices, and therefore there was the less occasion for this addition to their income. He did not allude to all the grants, some of them might be very proper, and that to her royal highness the duchess of Gloucester, he considered as too small; but he thought the emoluments which different branches of the royal family derived from offices which they held, should be taken into account.
Lord H. Petty
said, that though he gave the hon. gent. full credit for, his feelings of œconomy, yet he trusted, from what he had stated on a former night, that the house would not consider the present as a lavish expenditure of the public money, at a period which called for the strictest œconomy; and mentioned, with regard to two royal persons, that certain tables and other allowances had been lately suppressed, which had cost the public nearly as much as their additional allowances would do.
Mr. Rose
expressed his full assent to the bill; and observed, that in respect to some of the princes, the discontinuance of their allowances under the civil list, would amount to more than the augmentation in their incomes. He considered the votes to be extremely moderate, when he called to mind that 50 years ago the allowance to the then duke of Gloucester was 15,000l. As to the offices which some of the princes might hold at the royal pleasure, they should not be taken into contemplation, when the question was respecting a permanent provision.—The report was then agreed to, and bills ordered to be brought in on the first four resolutions.
969
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.] Lord Temple
then moved the order of the day for the third reading of the American Intercourse bill.
Sir Charles Price
said, that, though he did not expect to make much impression upon, ministers, he yet thought it necessary to take this last opportunity of re-stating his objections to the bill. He regretted much the thin attendance in the house, when a subject of such great importance was discussed, and thought it unbecoming to push on the bill at so late a period of the session, and in so thin a house. From all his communications with West India merchants and planters, and those engaged in the trade with Canada, and also with the ship owners of this country, he thought the present bill hostile to the interests of our commerce. He had been informed by American merchants, that not less than one-third, and even one-half of the sailors navigating American ships, were British-born subjects. The present, therefore, was not the time to discourage our shipping and navigation interests, and to drive still more of our seamen into the American service. For some time after the first suspension of the navigation laws in 1793, the vessels and ship owners were fully employed as transports, so that sufficient encouragement was given to the navigation of the country; but since this resource had ceased, the shipping interest had declined; and he could state that, in 1802, there were not less than 100 of these ships with a broom at the masthead, which fully sheaved the distressed situation of the ship owners. On these, and various grounds, he moved, that, instead of the word "now," the words "this day three months" be inserted in the motion.
Mr. Brodrick
seconded the amendment, and characterised the bill as unjust, unreasonable, and impolitic.
Mr. S. Bourne
deprecated the passing of a bill which went to suspend the navigation laws of the country, in so thin a house, and at so late a period of the session. He then took a general view of the arguments for and against the bill; and contended that the discretionary power of suspending the navigation laws was best vested in the different West India governors, the meanest of whom had more local and immediate knowledge than ministers could possess, even with all that superior ability and information which they had as-
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Mr. Mainwaring
declared that he considered the silence of the gentlemen opposite as an insult to the house. He was sorry he could not call it the first insult they had thus offered. He had come down to the house merely to give a silent vote against the measure, and should not have thus commented on the conduct of the men by whom it had been brought forward, had not their conduct forced front him the observation which he had, just made. He then repeated the arguments that had been adduced against the bill, and hoped, for the sake of common decorum, that his majesty's ministers would not persevere in the line of conduct which they had that evening adopted.
Sir W. Young
defended the letter which had been alluded to by an hon. gent. (Mr. S. Bourne); that letter contained an exception which rendered it very dif-
971
Sir W. Curtis
objected to the principle of the bill, and that power should be rested in any one to suspend the Navigation Laws. He insisted that our own North American colonies, Canada, Halifax, New Brunswick, &c. were adequate to supply the West India islands, without depending on any speculations whatever. He should therefore vote in favour of his hon. colleague's amendment.
Lord De Blaquiere
considered the present bill as affording but a slender proof of that extensive understanding, and those distinguished talents which ministers had been supposed to engross. He would ask gentlemen, and young gentlemen in particular, if this was a time to prostrate themselves to America, when that country had done every thing but spit in their faces. There appeared in ministers, a superabundance of ingenuity, but a great want of good sense. He considered the present bill as another display of their disposition to introduce wanton innovations into the established system of the country.
Lord Temple
said, it was incorrectly stated that the supporters of this bill had prevented the petitioners from being heard by council: the opposition to this indulgence was given by the other side of the house. Neither was it just to assume, that because our commercial ma-
972
Lord Castlereagh rose
and spoke as follows:—Sir, I cannot permit this bill to be read a third time, without stating the strong objections I feel both to its principle and its provisions. In proportion as both have been discussed, my repugnance to both has increased. Indeed it is impossible to compare the futility of the professed object, with a view to which this bill is introduced, with the extent and nature of the powers it confers, without feeling an alarm, that it is really intended for other and more serious purposes than those which have been announced.—It is said, that nothing more is intended by its framers, than that which has hitherto been done in breach of law, and of the oaths under which his majesty's governors act, should hereafter be done regularly, and in conformity to law. But if nothing more was really meant, than that the British West India islands, in cases of an adequate necessity, should hereafter receive supplies of provisions and lumber from America, as they have heretofore done, even in American bottoms, why propose a law to enable the privy council to permit the importation into our colonies, not only of previsions and lumber from America, but of every description of produce, even manufactures, as the bill was first introduced, from every state in amity with the king? And further, why permit the unlimited export in return of all articles of colonial produce to any such states, thereby at
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Lord Henry Petty
said, the noble lord complained that ministers had not informed the house of the nature and object of this bill; but he had scarcely proceeded to a second sentence before he admitted that a right. hon. friend of his (Mr. Fox) had disclosed the grounds and principles of that measure. The truth was, that his right. hon friend had opened the subject so completely, as was often his practice, as to render little further explanation necessary. The bill proposed by Mr. Pitt in 1783, on the intercourse with America, was much more directly opposed to the navigation law than the present, so that if this be absurd, novel, and monstrous, it at least must be much lesss absurd, novel, and monstrous, than that which was supported by that rt.hon. gent
987
The Master of the Rolls
rose and spoke as follows:—One of the observations of the noble lord (Petty) who spoke last, is 'the-Most extraordinary I ever knew to be used in a debate, namely, that what has passed, on former occasions, has rendered unnecessary all argument in support of this bill, and, as he thinks, has rendered unavailing all arguments against it. Objections have indeed, he says, been urged, which might have had some force, but a satisfactory explanation has been given to them, and these the noble lord has left untouched. In his very, outset, the noble lord has left untouched one-half of the argument urged against him, by which he has left untouched one-half of his own bill. All the argument against one whole clause has entirely escaped the noble lord's observation, and he
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The Attorney-General
replied to the right hon. and learned gent., in support of the bill, and contended, that it went merely to place under the controul of his majesty in council, and by law, a practice which, for thirteen years past, had been uniformly assumed by the governors of the West-India islands, without law, and upon the presumption of future indemnity. He contended, also, that it was the very selfsame principle of controul and discretionary power of dispensing with the rigour of the navigation laws with respect to America, and the East-India trade, which had existed in his majesty and the privy council, ever since the conclusion of the American war, and this, too, under bills successively brought in by a late right hon. gent., and supported by his supporters, without any of those apprehensions for the safety of the navigation laws, or the ruin of our commerce, our navy, and our national power, which seemed, that night, to excite so much clamour in the vigilant guardians of our prosperity and safety.
Mr. Perceval
spoke in opposition to the bill, and contended, that neither the noble lord who introduced it, nor those who supported it, really understood it: for that it did not merely, as they had alledged, open to the Americans the advantages of our navigation laws, with respect to the furnishing our West-India islands with provisions and other produce and manufacture, but that it opened the same privilege to all neutral ships of all nations whatever.
Mr. Secretary Windham
conceived, that it was totally unnecessary that his majesty's ministers should rise
seriatim
Mr. Rose
again insisted that the present Measure would be a gross infraction of the navigation laws.—The question was very generally called for and the house divided: For the third reading, 85; Against it, 30; Majority, 55.—Previous to the passing of the bill, Mr. Prinsep brought up his promised clauses, which, after some alteration, were adopted, and added, by way of ri-
1010
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, July 9.
[MINUTES.]
The bills upon the table were forwarded in their respective stages. Amongst these, the Irish Imports and Exports bill, the Irish Spirits Warehousing bill, the Norwich Castle Ground bill, and Irish Poor bill, were severally read a third time, and passed, and messages ordered to acquaint the commons therewith.—On the motion of the earl of Lauderdale, certain extracts, relative to the course of proceeding in the court of session in Scotland; and an account of the expenses attending the same, from a given period of the year 1800, to the like period in 1804, were ordered to be laid before the house; also certain accounts from the commissioners of teens or tithes, respecting the augmentations made therein, &c. within the like period.—The West-India Intercourse bill, the Greenwich Pensioners', the Westminster Hall Avenues, and the Scots' Distillery bills, were brought up from the commons, and read a first time.—The Greenwich Hospital bill was, on the motion of lord Flood, ordered to be read a second time on Friday; and the West-India Intercourse bill, on the motion of lord Auckland, a second time on Monday next.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, July 9.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of sir A. Wellesley, the deputy clerk of the crown was ordered to attend the house forthwith. He brought in the return for the borough of Carlow, which was read; and by which it appeared, that lieutenant-colonel Arthur Symes had been returned for the borough of Carlow. The precedent of the borough of Newtown, in the county of Southampton, in which Ewan Law, esq. was, by mistake, returned for Evan Law, esq. having been. read; the returning officer for Carlow (Mr. Turpin) was called in, who, on being questioned by the Speaker, declared, that, by mistake, the word Arthur had been inserted in the return instead of Michael. On the motion of sir A. Wellesley, the name of Arthur was ordered to be erased, and the name of Michael substituted— On the motion of of Mr. C. Wynne, a new writ was ordered to be issued for the borough of
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[CALICO PRINTERS.] Mr. P. Moore
rose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of the house to this subject. The evidence to which his motion would refer, bad now lain before the house for a considerable time, without any report being made upon it, and this could nut be considered, by any means, fair towards any of the parties concerned, but particularly towards the petitioners, who had been for many years applying to parliament for redress. Their case was of such a nature as to call for a satisfactory decision, and he felt encouraged to persevere in his exertions to obtain it, from the result of the investigation respecting the woollen manufactures, which the house had heard to-day, and which he had never relaxed his endeavours to produce. While the parties, in that case, were left in suspense, the determination of their business being long postponed, great distress prevailed among them; and such must naturally be expected to arise among the parties in this instance also, it the house declined much longer to decide upon the object of their application. He did not mean to propose taut the house should come to a final decision upon the subject, in the course of the present session, but merely to refer it to a committee, who would not, he ventured to state, require more than one hour's deliberation to determine upon it, in such a way as should satisfy the parties, and form the basis of a legislative arrangement, which be pledged himself to bring forward early in the next session.
Colonel Stanley
was glad to understand hat it was not the hon. gent.'s intention to propose any legislative provision in the course of the present session, as the attendance was so thin from the Northern part of the country, to which his business was so particularly interesting.—The mo-
1015
[ROYAL FAMILY ANNUITIES BILL.] Mr. Vansittart
brought in the bill for granting additional annuities to the younger branches of the royal family.
Colonel Wood
said, he took great shame to himself, that he had not, by attending his duty on a former evening, had an opportunity of stating his sentiments upon this subject when it was originally brought forward. That such a proposition should have been submitted to parliament, under the present circumstances of the country, and particularly by the noble lord, so distinguished for the profession of economy, was, to him, he confessed, no less a matter of regret, than of astonishment. The house, in general, indeed, must have been taken by surprise in this proceeding; for nothing had, he ventured to say, ever been brought before parliament in a similar manner. He begged the house to recollect, that the noble lord had, in the first instance, introduced this measure to the house, as a bill merely to rectify a mistake in a former act; but, immediately afterwards, comes a proposition to make a considerable increase in the salaries allowed to the junior branches of the royal family, recommended by a message from his majesty. When the situation of the country was taken into view, when it was considered that the income tax was raised to 10 per cent., that several persons, of a certain rank in life, paid 17½per cent., and that, indeed, most people paid no less, in public contributions, than 50 per cent. of their whole revenue, the country must be amazed to hear of this bill. For the illustrious personages, who were the objects of this bill, he professed the utmost respect; and he would be very ready to pay his own proportion of any contribution that might be necessary to the maintenance of their splendour and happiness. If the lords and commons were, alone, called upon for a contribution of this nature, he would most cheerfully assent to it; but, feeling for the people, who were already so borne down, he could not consent to increase their burthens, particularly upon such grounds as were stated by the noble mover of this. bill. That noble lord dwelt upon the depreciation of money, and the enhancement of provisions, which so much affected other people, as a reason for this bill; hut, he took no notice of this fact, that the royal persons, to whom this bill referred, were quite exempt from the taxes which so ma-
1016
Lord Temple
had no doubt, that the hon. gent. acted from his conception of public duty; but, he could wish that, at least, the hon. gent. could have reconciled with that conception of duty, to postpone his observations until his noble friend, to whom they were more particularly addressed, should be present to hear them. Had the hon. gent. been in the house, to hear the arguments of his noble friend, on a former evening, most probably, the objections which he urged, on that evening, would never have been started. If, in addition, the hon. gent. had been aware of that which was mentioned only the preceding night, namely, that the establishments of tables, coals, candles, &c. heretofore allowed to the princes, was to be withdrawn, and which establishment was nearly equivalent to the proposed augmentation, the lion. member would have been, perhaps, still less disposed to resist this bill. The noble lord was persuaded, that every just, reflecting man must feel, that an adequate increase of allowance should be granted to the members of the royal family, at a time when the salaries of even the subordinate clerks in the public offices were generally augmented, in consequence of the depreciation of mo-
1017
Sir W. Elford
said, he was one of those who felt the burthens of the times as strongly as any man; hut, he was convinced, that it was his duty, as a public man, to provide the proper means for securing to the royal family that splendour which the present provision was, in his opinion, totally inadequate to maintain. These sentiments proceeded from a sense of public duty, and from that alone; for, he had not the honour of being known to one of the illustrious personages who were the objects of this measure.
Colonel Wood
was proceeding to urge some fresh arguments against the bill, when he was prevented by the speaker, who observed that he must confine himself to explanation. On intimating, that the speaker did not deal with him as with others, the speaker, appealed to the house, Whether he deserved the reproach that the hon. gent. had cast upon him. [Loud cries of chair! chair!]—The bill was then ordered to be read a 2d time to-morrow.
[COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.] Lord Henry Petty
moved, that the house should go into a committee of supply, and that there should be instructions to the committee, to make compensation to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, and to make some allowance to the Commissioners of Military Enquiry; and that the Veterinary College petition, and Bell Rock report, should be referred to the committee. Ordered.—In the committee, lord Henry Petty stated, that the first resolution which he should have to propose was, one respecting an increased allowance to the princess Sophia of Gloucester, founded on the particular circumstances of her case. The other princesses bad not lost their parents, and had the benefit of survivorships; which was not the case with her. Instead, therefore, of 4,000l. annually, which had been voted before, he would now move, that an allowance of 5,000l. a year, should be made to the princess Sophia of Gloucester, in lieu of 4,000l. which had been charged on the aggregate fund; and, also, an additional allowance of 2,000l. to commence from the death of her mother, the duchess of Gloucester. Agreed to.—The next resolution which he had to propose was, a compensation to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, who had drawn near to the close of their labours. This, no doubt, would be granted, with plea
1018
Mr. Paull
agreed most cordially in the grant that had been made to the Naval Commissioners; but, as to the present resolution, he thought that we ought to see a little more of the labours of the military commissioners, before such a sum was voted for them; as yet, they had done nothing to deserve it; but, he would not insist on the objection, if the noble lord was resolved to carry his motion.
Lord Henry Petty
said, that the sum was different from that granted to the Naval Commissioners, and the sum was only granted on account. He agreed, that we had not equal experience of their services, nor could we as yet; but, as nobody could say that they had not done their duty satisfactorily, it was reasonable to grant this suns on account. Besides, the hon. gent. seemed to have forgot, that they had already presented a laborious report to the house, stating a particular abuse; and he was happy to have it to state to the house, and the public, that, in consequence of the discovery which they had made, and the steps taken upon it, government was in possession of security for the balance due to the public.
Mr. Windham
said, that the principle upon which the hon. gentleman's argument seemed. to proceed was, "no abuse, no pay." Were the commissioners to be paid, only in case they discovered abuses? It was rather to be wished, that they should have nothing to discover in this way.
Mr. Huskisson
stated, that commissioners had applied to the, late government, and that it had been deemed expedient to make them some allowance on account. In commissions of long continuance, this would be, in general, absolutely necessary.
Mr. S. Lefevre
supported the resolution, from the knowledge that he himself had of some of the commissioners, and his observations of the diligence with which they did their duty. He suggested to the
1019
Lord Henry Petty
said, that this had not, as yet, particularly engaged the attention of government; but, that the suggestion would be attended to.
Mr. Tyrwhitt
Jones considered this was rather an unprecedented mode of granting compensation. He thought that it ought pot to be established as a precedent, that allowances should be given on account; otherwise, account would go on on account; and this was the mode in which the 450 millions of unaudited accounts had been raised.
Mr. Paull
stated, that no compensation had been made, by the late government, to the commissioners of naval enquiry; and, be thought, no allowance ought to be made to the present commissioners, till their labours drew to a period.
Mr. Windham
observed, that it might be a commission that could not go on without some allowance in the mean time; and it, in every case, we were to wait till the close of their labours, we could not know what bad effects this might have on such labours.
Mr. Burton
observed that, after the two first years of the labours of that deserving set of commissioners, Which had been appointed, some time ago, to investigate the public accounts,compensation had been annually allowed them, for the services of the preceding year. This was a precedent for money on account, though the other mode was the more common. The resolution was then agreed to—Mr. Windham proposed, that 1,500
l
l
l
l
[VOLUNTEER OFFICERS' BILL] Mr. Secretary Windham
moved the order of the day, for the 2d reading of the Volunteer Officers' Rank bill. On the question being put, that the bill he now read a 2d time,
1020
Mr. Alderman Combe
wished. to be informed, whether the operation of the bill was to extend to the present officers of Volunteer Corps, or to be confined to those who might, hereafter, be appointed?
Mr. Secretary Windham
replied, that the provisions of the bill were to apply to all officers of Volunteers. The bill was to enact a regulation which, he was sure, no gentleman could entertain a doubt of the propriety of adopting, namely, that no yeomanry, or volunteer officer should command a field officer of the line. It had been, at first, his intention, to provide, by a legislative measure, that no volunteer officer should command a captain of volunteers, provided that captain was in the command of a corps; but, in consideration of seine suggestions made on the subject, he was disposed to recede from that intention. It appeared to him a Matter of such obvious necessity, to provide against the possibility of field officers of the line being commanded by volunteer officers, that, he was confident, no such officer would feel any objection to the measure.
Mr. Alderman Combe
admitted, that it would be right to adopt such a provision, if the rank of volunteers was now, for the first time, to be adjusted; but, as they derived their rank from .an act of parliament, he should feel it his duty to oppose this measure, which was to deprive them of it.
Mr. Secretary Windham
observed, that this bill was intended, merely, to correct an unadvised grant of rank,contained in the act of the 44th of the king. The hop. gent, admitted, that it would have been right, in the first instance, to withhold this rank. What ought not to be granted at all, ought, certainly, not to be continued, when unadvisedly granted.
Mr. Perceval
asked, whether it was intended to apply the same regulations to militia officers; or, whether they were to stand, on the same footing with the regulars?
Mr. Secretary Windham
replied, that this bill was not to apply to officers of militia, in the same manner as to volunteer officers. There were different descriptions, and different degrees of discipline; and the nearer any one approached to the perfection of the regulars, the less. necessary it was to resort to such precautions as that contained in the bill.
Mr. Perceval
then added, that there were many persons colonels, commanding regiments of volunteers, who had served
1021
Mr. Holt Lee
thought the effect of the measure would be, to produce a degradation of the commanding officers of volunteer corps, in the eyes of those they commanded He wished to know, whether the operation of ale bill was to have force only in the event of the volunteers being called out into actual service?
Mr. Secretary Windham
replied, whenever the volunteers may be drawn out to act with the army; unless in that case, the provision of the bill would be a mockery. The bill was then read a 2d time.
[AUDITORS OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
moved the order of the day for the 2d reading of the Auditors' bill.
Mr. Tyrwhitt Jones
had no expectation, that any thing he could say would induce the noble lord to abandon the bill; but could not omit that opportunity of entering his protest against the measure; which, according to the noble lord's own statement, Was to allow a part of the. 450 millions, which were unaccounted for, to pass as paid, and without any vouchers.
Mr. Rose
said that, on a former discussion upon this subject, he had endeavoured to convince the noble lord opposite, that be was entirely mistaken in the statement which he had made, as to there being 450 millions of the public money actually unaccounted for; he wished to know, wile. there or not the noble lord, on more mature consideration, was now convinced; that the Calculation, which he (Mr. Rose) had taken the liberty of making, was correct.
Lord Henry Petty
intimated, that he was still disposed to adhere to his former opinion upon that subject.
Mr. Rose
then rose again, and entered into a 'minute statement and calculation in order to shew the impossibility of there being such an immense sum as 450 millions actually unaccounted for. He was still more fully convinced than ever, of his former statement having been just; and he now had occasion deeply to regret, that the noble lord seemed inclined to press for ward this measure in the present session o parliament. He thought it would be fa: better, were the noble lord to content him self, in the mean time, with the appointment of some overseers, or inspectors, to ascertain whether or not the former corn, missioners were going on properly. It would
1022
1023
Lord Henry Petty
replied, that the measure under consideration had been adopted on the representations of those best qualified to judge of the propriety and expediency of it; representations which,he had reason to think, had been made to the late, as Well as the present, treasury. He contended, and, when experience would afford a criterion of the tact, should contend, that this measure cotained provisions both new and efficient, both in the distinction of the boards, and the classification of the accounts into those in arrear there now under audit and the current accounts. The noble lord then refer red to the authority of the auditors themselves; and read an extract from a letter, from them to the treasury in 1800, to shew, that the bank accounts were part of the public accounts that ought to be audited by a separate and independent board.
Mr. Huskisson
allowed, that the delay of auditing public accounts was an encouragement to fraud, and went to prevent proper persons from wishing to become public accountants. He spoke in commendation of
1024
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, July 10.
[MINUTES.]
The Irish Roads bill, the Irish Peerage bill, the Irish Revenue bill, the Land Tax Commissioners' Mistake bill, and the Postage bill, were read a 2d time, and committed for the next day.—The duke of New castle took the oaths and his seat.—On the 2d reading of a bill for allowing the conveyance of a certain quantity of Coals to London by the Paddington canal, the earl of Suffolk said a few words in favour of this mode of supplying the metropolis with coals, which, he thought, did not go far enough. If an unlimited supply by the Paddington canal were allowed, it would tend materially to decrease the price of coals in the London market. Lord Eldon observed, that there being no duty on the coals by the Paddington canal, and a very heavy duty on the Newcastle coals, if the former were allowed to be brought here without limitation, they would drive the latter out of the market, and thereby destroy the nursery of those seamen to whom we were indebted for so many victories. The bill was then read a 2d time, and committed for the next day.—In the case of "Lucina
v.
venire facias de novo
1025
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, July 10.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Johnson
from the office of the chief secretary for Ireland, was called in, and at the bar presented to the house, pursuant to their order, An account of the different sums of money that have been expended, or that are to be expended, on the port of Dublin, by the directors of inland navigation; stating the authority under which the said directors expended the said money;—together with a statement of the plans and reports that have been made, pursuant to their directions, for the improvement of the same. Ordered to lie upon the table, and to be printed for the members of the house.—Ordered, that the account of the manner in which the sum of 500,000
l.
l.
1026
[OUDE SUPPLEMENTARY CHARGE—RAJAH OF SASNEE, &C.]
The following is a copy
1027
"Article of Charge of High Crimes and Misdemeannours committed by Richard Colley Marquis Wellesley, in his transactions with respect to the Rajahs and Zemindars in the Doab; and particularly in his transactions with respect to the Rajah Bugwunt Sing, Zemindar of Sasnee and Bidjeghur, and the Rajah Kakoor Addkeerin, Zemindar of Cutchoura.
"That Richard Colley
marquis Wellesley was constituted, appointed, and actually became a servant of the United Company of Merchants of England trading to the East Indies, in the month of October, in the year of our Lord 1797, and in the reign of his majesty the 37th: That the office which he was appointed to fill was that of governor-general of Bengal, and subsequently that of captain-general of all the king's and company's forces serving in the British territories in the East Indies: That he arrived, and took possession of the government committed to his charge, in May 1798; and that he continued to fill, and to exercise the powers of the said office and offices until August 1805, when he was therein superseded by Charles marquis Cornwallis.—That in the countries which the said marquis Wellesley had unlawfully, perfidiously, and tyrannically extorted from the Nabob Vizier of Oude, dwelt several tributary chieftains called Rajahs, greatly respected by the sovereigns, and highly revered by the people of Hindustan, being descended from the ancient Hindu rajahs, or princes, who had resided in that country before the mussulman conquest; having from time immemorial possessed strong forts and populous towns independent of government, and maintained, with undiminished influence and power, numerous vassals and adherents, whose personal bravery and attachment to their lord were unimpaired, and, though owing allegiance to the nabob vizier bf Oude, possessing princely rights, and honours, and estates, which had descended to them unquestioned through a long line of venerable ancestry, and which their sovereign could neither alienate nor destroy.—That, on taking possession of the countries which he had so iniquitously extorted from the said nabob vizier, the said marquis Wellesley did determine upon the humiliation of the said rajahs,the ruin of their families, the destruction of their forts, and the seizure of their towns; a measure unjust and unwise in itself, and dangerous to the tranquil
1028
1029
1030
1031
1032
1033
1034
1035
1036
[MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL.] Mr. Secretary Windham
said, that the estimates, relating to the pay of Militia Officers, went to extend the same additional allowance to subalterns in the militia, as to those in the regulars. But it was not proposed to extend this allowance to the field-officers of the militia: the reason of which was, that, from the constitution of the militia service, they were necessarily men of considerable property, besides what arose from their pay. He then moved for leave to bring in a bill, to amend the acts of the 42d of the king, as far as related to the pay of militia officers.
Sir W. Elford
expressed his astonishment, that so great a state-question, as whether the captains in the militia should be on a different footing from those of the regulars, should be brought forward at such a late period of the session, when most of the militia officers had retired from the house to their military avocations. It was a measure founded on this most unwarrantable principle, that, because men filling official situations had private property, they should therefore forego their official salary. But he had not heard that it was ever proposed, that the duke of Bedford, for instance, should relinquish his official salary as lord lieutenant of Ireland, because he possessed a large private fortune. Many of the field-officers of the militia were possessed of very moderate fortunes. He had belonged to that body for 20 years, and he had found his pay fully exhausted by his contribution to the mess, and by his house-rent alone when on service: an extension
1037
Colonel Wood
observed, that field-officers in the militia must possess a certain degree of property in the country, and therefore there was not the same reason for making an addition to their pay, as for increasing that of field-officers in the regulars, who were in general very differently situated.
Mr. Perceval
contended, that the principle of the measure went to spew, that officers of the militia should have no pay at all.—Leave was then given to bring in the bill, which was accordingly brought up by the secretary at war, who moved that it be read a first time.
Sir W. Elford
protested against the principle of the bill, which would give a deathblow to the militia.
Mr. Perceval
said, that, from what he now understood the bill to be, it gave much greater powers to ministers than what were necessary for the object which they had in view. The law at present was, that the militia, as to pay, should be exactly on the same footing with the infantry in the regulars. But now it appeared that, in certain cases, an increase was to be allowed to the one and not to the other. But the particular object was to give the increase of pay to the militia subalterns, and to withhold it from the other officers. There was no such particular distinction, however, in the bill. Besides, the principle would certainly go this length, that no pay should be allowed to the superior militia officers at all, and the measure could not be defended on any other ground. This might be a good principle, but it certainly was one which deserved some consideration before it was established; and therefore to
1038
Mr. Windham
stated, that this Would not affect the officers now serving in the militia, as they were not put upon a worse footing than when they entered, and this went only so far as to say, that they had no claim to a participation in the proposed increase.—But the learned gentleman objected to the principle. The principle, however, was not what he had stated it to be. It was not that the militia officers ought to have no pay at all, but upon the plain and obvious one, that different kinds of service ought to be differently rewarded. The pay, it was true, had been the same hitherto: but was that a reason why it should not be varied if there should appear good cause for it? A certain proportion had been established between the pay of officers of different ranks: but that, too, might be varied, if there was reason for it. As to the militia officers above a certain rank, they must have private fortunes: and could it be contended, that, because you gave an increase of pay to officers in the army, whose services must be acknowledged to be of a superior nature, who might have no private fortune, and might be obliged to depend solely on their pay for the establishment of their future lives, you ought, therefore, to allow the same increase to persons in circumstances altogether different? The thing was preposterous on the face of it. He then adverted to the additional expence which an allowance of additional pay to the superior militia officers, would occasion, and contended that this ought to be avoided, since there was no necessity for it.
Lord Castlereagh
said, that a badge of inferiority would thus be fixed upon the militia officers, much more hurtful to their feelings than the want of the pay, and they would consider this as a precursor of some future measure still further to degrade them. The right hon. secretary himself had recognised the principle of an equal pay, by giving it to the subalterns. The militia captains might be equally in want of the pay, because the qualification required was only 200
l.
l.
l.
1039
l.
Mr. Alexander
stated the influence which their situation gave to militia colonels, who possessed advantages which could not be possessed by the regular colonels.
Lord Castlereagh
observed, that if the hon. gent. had looked at the estimate, he would have found that the additional pay did not extend to the colonels in either case.
Lord Temple
pressed his wish that his hon. friend would reconsider his measure. Upon the principle which he had stated, different parts of the army itself might have different claims. As to the colonels of militia, they had no claim whatever. The field-officers had not much; but as to the captains, he must really insist upon the pay being extended to them, because if officers could not be found with the proper qualifications, power had lately been given to accept of them without, and many had been therefore admitted without the qualification.
Lord De Blaquiere
hoped that there could be no difference of opinion as to the necessity of extending the additional allowance to the captains of militia. But he thought the distinction extremely invidious, even as applied to the field-officers. He was surprised that this period of the session should be chosen for the introduction of such a measure, when the militia officers had left their duty in this house, to go discharge more pressing duties, and he hoped, therefore, that it would be reconsidered.
Colonel Craufurd
could not see why the measure should be objected to, except it was with a view to render his right hon. friend unpopular with the militia and volunteers; a purpose in which the hon. gent. on the other side had laboured with great perseverance, but he believed with little success. The cavalry were excluded from this increase of pay, and so were the guards, upon the principle that they could go on very well without any addition, while, in the cases where it was allowed, there was a necessity for it. It was to prevent meritorious officers from being put in prison, or being forced to quit the service, from the absolute inability of existing upon their pay. If there was no complaint on account of the cavalry and the guards, where was the ground for complaint in the case of the militia?
1040
General Tarleton
knew, froth his own observation, that the militia were brought to a very high state of discipline, and this was owing to the officers. They were fit to combat with any regular troops against any enemy whatever; and when there was so much merit on the part of the officers, it was hard to make this invidious distinction.—The bill was then ordered to be read a second time the next day.—Sir C. Pole, pursuant to notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill to extend the advantages of the 35th of the king to the petty officers, seamen, and marines, in the navy, by enabling them to allot part of their wages to the support of their wives and families. Leave given. The bill was then brought up, read a first, and ordered to be read a second time the next day.—The nabob of Arcot's Debts bill was reported, and ordered to be read a third time the next day.
[VOLUNTEER OFFICERS' RANK BILL.]
On the motion of Mr. Windham, the house resolved itself into a committee on the Volunteer Officers' Rank bill.
Mr. Alderman Combe
following up the principle, for which he had formerly contended, that rank should not be taken from those who already enjoyed it, moved that the words "shall have been" should be left out, for the purpose of inserting the words "shall hereafter be." The effect of this would be, that the provisions of the bill would extend only to those who might hereafter become colonels of volunteer corps.
Mr. H. Addington
said, that he had no unpleasant feelings whatever at the idea of being commanded, in case of his corps being called out for service, by any regular field-officer. On the contrary, he was glad that he was relieved from the responsibility that might attach to him, in case it should have been his fortune to have commanded a field-officer of the regulars. This was the feeling of every volunteer colonel with whom he had conversed on the subject.
Mr. S. Bourne
said, that it was a very, different thing to consider whether this rank ought to have been given originally, and to take it away when given. This was not a new thing. It existed when the right hon. gentleman was secretary at war. The highest rank at present was lieutenant-colonel; but then there were full colonels of volunteers, with the rank of regular colonels in the army. But suppose there should be a regular major in a volunteer corps, it might turn out, that, in case of actual
1041
Lord Temple explained, that there was no danger of a major commanding his own colonel, as his rank was like brevet rank in the army, and not in the particular regiment.
General Tarleton
contended, that no evil whatever could result, from allowing the volunteer officers to retain their rank. The guards enjoyed a different rank from the other parts of the army; yet, though they had served in America, in Flanders, and in other places, no inconvenience had been felt—they had been brigaded by themselves. The militia, the volunteers, and the army, might go on in the same manner without jealousy. He would mix them all without any apprehension. He would have no apprehension that the volunteers would turn their backs, but they might be too rash. How was this to be corrected? By discipline. The country would have to regret the retarding of the discipline of the volunteers by the measures of the right hon. gent. If they had been permitted to have gone on, they would have been fit for any duty.
Sir C. Price
said, that, in every step taken with regard to the volunteers, something was done to degrade them. He adverted to the manner in which the volunteers had at first come forward, and thought that they deserved to be complimented instead of being degraded.
Lord De Blaquiere
approved of the bill, and thought that serious mischief would arise in the moment of services unless its provisions were adopted. It would then be proper that the volunteers should be commanded by those who had never seen service. An hon. general had talked of the guards, but they had commanded up to their rank in the army, and no inconvenience arose from this circumstance.
Mr. Secretary Windham
could not imagine it to be seriously meant, that officers ranking as colonels of Volunteers could take any offence at being, in case of actual service, obliged to act under the command of officers in the line of inferior rank. Field-officers of volunteers might be very respectable men, and very worthy characters, but then they were not military men in the technical sense of the word; and, of course, could not be competent to take a superior command of troops in actual
1042
1043
Mr. Perceval
had only argued from the fact, as it appeared by the papers on the table; and if there was a mistake, it was owing to his friends in office. The corps, however, was as good a corps as one without officers could be expected to be. He believed it had not even a constable, but it appeared that at the time the right hon. gent. Knew so little about his own corps, that it was not till now he was enabled to correct the mistake. But the right hon. gent. did not adopt his own principle to its full extent, otherwise it would apply to the militia. He ought rather to have recalled the commissions of the volunteer colonels. He was now reducing them to the very thing which he bad described them to be. They were now really "the painted cherries." Nothing could lower the officers more, in the eyes of the country, than allowing them the title of colonels, without the effective rank.
Mr. Long
said, that if the right hon. gent. favoured the volunteers, they were very ungrateful, for they did not give him credit for it. He asked, whether there were any regulations for doing away the allowances of pay and clothing, as it was understood to be the intention to suffer the volunteers to moulder away?
General Torleton
thought that if the volunteer officers had eagerly put themselves forward, there might be some ground for the measure; but a lieutenant Bayley, who had served at the Havannah with great applause, and who now commanded a corps of 4000 volunteers, had modestly stood aside when they were inspected. Of this corps, captain Gore, whose services in America would be well remembered, was the major; and yet these men were to be degraded.
Mr. C. Wynne
admitted that these were officers of experience, but they were particular exceptions. It would be unpleasant in time of service for inexperienced volunteer officers to command regular field-officers, and this feeling had been expressed by the colonel of the light-horse volunteers, in whose favour an exception might be made, if in any case.
Mr.
Ryder
1044
Mr. Windham
said, that there was no occasion for his answering what he had stated over and over again, especially as the question was asked with a view to the motion of the next day, the nature of which had not been communicated to him, nor to the house. This might be a stratagem of war against his majesty's ministers, but it was not very candid to the house.
Mr. Long
considered it hard that he should suffer for the fault of another.
Mr. Windham
said, that he certainly had no inclination to answer, merely on account of the motion for the next day; but he had before distinctly stated, that the pay and clothing was not to be allowed such volunteers as should enter in future.—The amendment was then negatived.
[INDIA BUDGET.]
On the motion of lord Morpeth, it was ordered, that the several Accounts and Papers, which have been presented to the house in this session of parliament, relating to the Revenues of the East-India Company, be referred to the consideration of a committee of the whole house. The house having accordingly resolved itself into the said committee, Mr. Hobhouse in the chair,
Lord Morpeth
rose, in consequence of the notice he had given, to submit to the consideration of the house, a statement of the financial affairs of the East-India company, a subject at all times of high importance to this country, but never more so at any period than at the present moment. In all the wide-extended affairs of government, there was not one which more peculiarly called for the vigilant superintendance and scrutiny of parliament, than the system of finance, upon which so materially depended the permanent prosperity of any government; and, though the statement he should this day have the honour to submit to the committee, would not be of a nature so very flattering as had been made of late years, by some of his predecessors in the department he had the honour to fill; yet having devoted the short period, since he had filled his present situation, in endeavouring, with the utmost assiduity, to make himself acquainted with the real state of the company's affairs, both at home and in India, with respect to their debts, their revenues, and commerce, as well as the various charges upon their government
1045
BENGAL.
£
REVENUES, No. 1.—Excluding the Revenues of the Ceded Provinces in Oude on account of their intermixture with the Arrears of Subsidy in some of the years, and the variation in the mode of statement in the last year, and, taking the Company's fried ancient Revenues alone, the average in the three years in this statement amounts to
6,166,581
Which exceeds the, average on the three years one year back
337,692
No. 3. Estimated for 1803–4
8,064,981
Actual Amount
8,060,993
Less than Estimate
3,988
CHARGES, No. 3.—Estimated for 1803-4
5,066,940
Actual Amount
5,434,291
More than Estimate
367,351
Add deficiency of Revenue to excess of Charge, the Net Revenue is less than estimated, by
371,339
And the Net Revenue for 1803-4 is
2,626,702
ESTIMATES for 1804–5.
REVENUES, No. 1
8,167,792
CHARGES, No. 2
5,956,208
Net Revenue
2,211,584
REVENUES estimated more than actual, 1803–4
106,799
CHARGES estimated more than ditto
521,917
Net Revenue, estimated for 1864-5,less than preceding year
415,118
MADRAS.
REVENUES—Excluding the Revenues of Arcot and of the Provinces ceded by the Nizam on account of the early years, being in part Subsidy and in part Revenue Collections, the average receipts on the years 1801-2 to 1803-4,as by No. 4, is
2,965,199
Being less than the average of the three years 1800-1 to 1802-3, in the sum of
49,102
REVENUES, No. 6—Estimated for 1803-4
4,888,895
Actual amount
4,653,401
Less than Estimate
235,494
CHARGES, No. 6—Estimated for 1803-4
5,018,157
Actual amount
6,136,845
More than Estimated
1,118,688
1046
£
Add deficiency of Revrenue to excess of Charge, the Net Charge is more than estimated, by
7,354,182
And the Net Charge for 1803-4 is
1,483,444
ESTIMATES, 1804–5.
REVENUES, No. 4.
4,659,326
CHARGES, No. 5.
5,420,029
Net Charge
760,703
REVENUES estimated more than actual of 1803–4
5,925
CHARGES estimated less than ditto
716,816
Net Charge estimated for 1804-5 less than preceding year
722,741
BOMBAY.
REVENUES, No. 7.—An adjustment of these Revenues, as of those of the other Presidencies, should have been made on account of the addition to the two last years, by Treaty and Conquest. As the amount in not specified, the average must be stated on the gross receipts on the years 1801-2 to 1803-4, it amounted to
408,062
Which exceeds the average 1800-1 to 1802-3, excluding a small receipt from the Orded Countries
99,020
REVENUES, No.9.—Estimated for 1803-4
518,575
Actual Amount
558,650
More than Estimate
40,075
CHARGES, No. 9.—Estimated for 1803-4
1,478,881
Actual Amount
1,642,978
More than Estimate
164,097
Deduct Excess of Revenue from Excess of Charge, the Net Charge is more than estimated, by
124,022
And the Net Charge of the Year 1803–4
1,084,328
ESTIMATES. 1804–5.
REVENUES, No. 7
731,391
CHARGES, No. 8
1,873,933
Net Charge
1,142,542
Revenues estimated more than actual, 1803-4
172,741
Charges estimated more than ditto
230,955
Net Charge estimated for 1804-5, more than preceding year
58,214
BENCOOLEN and other SETTLEMENTS.
No. 10, A.—Revenues of Fort Marlbro' in the year 1802–3
13,985
Charges of ditto
122,132
Net Charge
108,147
SUPPLIES from BENGAL to FORT MARLERRO' PENANG, &c. estimated for 1803–4
212,628
No. 18.—Actual Amount
304,056
More than estimated
91,428
NO.11.—Supplies estimated for 1804-5
287,680
GENERAL VIEW.
Result of the Year 1803-4 collectively. REVENUES—Bengal by No. 3
8,060,993
Madras 6
4,653,401
Bombay 9
558,650
Total Revenues
13,273,044
1047
£
CHARGES—Bengal, by No. 3
5,434,294
Madras, 6
6,136,845
Bombay, 9
1,642,978
Total Charges
13,214,114
Net Revenue of the three Presidencies
58,930
Deducted from Supplies to Bencoolen, &c. by No. 18
304,056
Leaves a Net Charge of
245,126
Add Interest, &c. paid on the Debts at Bengal, by No. 18
957,727
Madras, 19
334,179
Bombay, 20
*
Total Interest
1,534,758
The Total amounting to is the Sum in which the Charges and Interest exceeded the Produce of the Territorial Revenues.
1,779,884
From which deduct the Amount of the Sales of Imports, by No.15
655,481
The Remainder
1,124,403
Shews the Amount in which, in the year 1803-4, the Resources from Revenue and Sales of Imports were in sufficient to defray the Charges, and the Interest on the Debts.
Amount advanced for the purchase of Investments, Payment of Commercial Charges and in aid of China—
At Bengal, by No. 18
1,380,855
Madras, 19
706,771
Bombay, 20
193,844
Fort Marlbro' 22
39,014
Total Advances for Investments
2,320,484
Cargoes consigned to Europe, in 1803-4, with Charges by No. 22
1,674,645
GENERAL VIEW
Result of the ESTIMATES for the Year 1804–5, collectively.
REVENUES—Bengal, by No. 1
8,167,792
Madras, 4
4,659,326
Bombay, 7
731,391
Total Revenues
13,558,509
CHARGES—Bengal, by No. 2
5,956,208
Madras, 5
5,420,029
Bombay, 8
1,873,933
Total Charges
13,250,170
Net Revenue of the three Presidencies
308,339
Deduct Supplies to Bencoolen, &c., by No. 11
287,680
Reminder
20,659
Deducted from Interest on Debts, by No. 16
†1,754,843
The Sum then remaining is the Amount in which the Charges and Interest are estimated to exceed the Revenues.
1,734,184
Deduct Amount estimated to be received on the Sales of Imports, by No. 15
602,993
The Remainder is the Amount in which the Charges
1,131,191
*
l.
†Includes 166,454
l.
1048
£
of Government and Interest on the Debts are estimated to exceed the Resources expected to be derived from the territorial Revenues, and from the Sales of Imports, in the year 1804-5.
DEBTS IN INDIA.
Amount stated, to April 1803 21,881,571 Deduct in the hands of the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund
2,012,348
Net Amount of Dehts, on the 30th April, 1803
19,869,223
Amount on 30th April, 1804, by No. 16. of present Account
25,336,263
Deduct Sinking Fund, as above
2,800,056
Net Amount of Debts on 30th April, 1804
22,536,207
Increase
2,666,984
DEBTS BEARING INTEREST.
Amount in April 1803
18,712,933
Deduct in the hands of the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund
1,686,917
Net Amount of Debts bearing Interest on 30th April, 1803
17,026,016
Amount on 30th April, 1804, by No. 16
21,276,466
Deduct Sinking Fund, as above
2,244,532
Net Amount of Debts, bearing Interest on 30th April 1804
19,031,934
Increase of Debt bearing Interest
2,005,918
Amount of Interest payable on Debt owing in April 1803
1,574,011
Deduct Interest on Securities in the hands of the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund
126,360
Net Amount of Interest payable on Debt owing 30th April, 1803
1,447,651
Amount payable on Debt, in April 1804, by No. 16
1,754,843
Deduct Sinking Fund, as above
166,454
Net Amount of Interest payable on Debt, owing 30th April, 1804
1,588,389
Increase of Interest payable
140,738
ASSETS IN INDIA.
Consisting of Cash, Goods, Stores, &c. in April 1803
14,630,971
Deduct Balance and Securities in hands of Commissioners of the Sinking Fund
2,012,348
Net Amount of Assets on the 30th April, 1803
12,618,623
1049
Consisting as above, on 30th April 1804, by No 21
17,252,399
Deduct Sinking Fund, as above
2,800,056
Net Amount of Assets, on 30th April, 1804
14,452,343
Increase of Assets
1,833,720
Deducting Increase of Assets from Increase of Debts, the State of the Company's Affairs, in this view, is worse in April 1804, than in April 1803, in the Suns of
833,264
HOME ACCOUNTS.
No. 25—Aggregate Amount of Sale in 1804-5
8,044,392
Less than the Year preceding
380,876
The Sales of the Company's Goods were less by
609,991
The sales of Private-Trade Goods were more by
229,115
Making the Net difference, as above
380,876
The Sales of the Company's Goods were estimated at
6,868,700
The actual Amount was
5,267,578
Being less than estimated
1,601,122
The Receipts on the Sales of the Company's Goods were estimated at
6,598,496
They actually amounted to
5,730,153
Being less than estimated
5,730,133
Being less than estimated
868,363
The Charges and Profit on Private Trade were estimated to amount to
1,50,000
The actual Amount was
90,536
Being less than estimated
59,464
GENERAL RESULT.
From the disappointment in the Produce of the Sales, with a large Payment in Bonds by the Purchasers, and from a greater Expenditure on Account of India and China than first intended, the Deficit would have appeared in the Cash Balance of this Year to a considerable Amount; but the Sum borrowed from Government, a Loan from the Bank, and an Issue of Company's Bonds, have so operated, that the Balance of Cash estimated to remain in favour of the Company on the 1st of March, 1805, to the Amount of
157,634
was found, by the actual Accounts of the Year to be
12,020
which was less than estimated, by the Sum of
145,614
HOME ACCOUNTS.
ESTIMATE, 1805—6.
No. 23—Sale of the Company's Goods estimated to amount to
6,301,414
GENERAL RESULT.
Notwithstanding the Receipts from the Sales are estimated much higher than the Actual of the last Year, and the Expectation is stated of a Payment by Government of a Million, the various Demands upon the Treasury are so great for Freight and Demorage,
1050
the Repayment to Government of 500,000
l.
62,836
DEBTS AT HOME.
On the 1st March, 1804
4,788,865
No. 23, on the 1st March, 1805
6,012,196
Increase
1,223,331
ASSETS AT HOME.
On the 1st March, 1804
19,168,736
No. 23, on the 1st March, 1805
20,412,659
Increase
1,273,923
Deducting the Increase of Debt from the Increase of Assets, the Home Concern exhibits, in this view, an Improvement in the Year amounting to
50,592
CHINA and ST. HELENA.
Balance at China, on 31st January, 1803, against
260,000
Balance at China, on 29th January, 1804, in favour, No. 24
182,390
Increase at China
443,290
Balance at St. Helena on 30th Sept. 1802, in favour
105,194
Balance at St. Helena on 30th Sept. 1803, in favour, No. 24
105,382
Increas at St. Helena.
188
Total Increase at China and St. Helena
443,473
GENERAL COMPARISON of DEBTS and ASSETS.
Increase of Debts in India
2,666,984
Increase of Debts at Home
1,223,331
Total Increase of Debts
3,890,315
Increase of Assets in India
1,833,720
Increase of Assets at Home
1,273,923
3,107,643
Add—Net Increase of Balance at China and St. Helena
443,478
Total Increase of Assets
3,551,121
Deducted from the Increase of Debt, will shew a Deterioration to have taken place on the whole Concern in this view, during the Years 1803-4 Abroad, and 1804-5 at Home, to the Amount of
339,194
Add—Amount received in India, and included in the Quick Stock there, dated April 30, 1804, which formed part of the Cargoes afloat Outwards, in the Assets at Home
583,299
Goods in the Export Warehouses in India on the 30th April, 1804, arrived in England, and included in Assets at Home
43,619
626,918
1051
The Amount of the Deterioration will then be
966,112
The Assets at Home exhibited an Increase in. Value during the Year, in the Sum of 442,192
l.
ABSTRACT of ADDITIONAL ACCOUNTS.—BUDGET, 1805.—General View of Estimates, 1805-6.
Revenues of Bengal
3,763,220
Madras
4,774,296
Bombay
742,017
Total Revenues
14,279,538
Charges of Bengal
7,415,370
Madras
5,650,182
Bombay
1,580,292
Total Charges
14,645,844
Net Charge of the three Presidencies
366,311
Add Supplies to Bencoolen, Prince of Wales' Island, &c.
266,800
Total Surplus Charge
633,111
Add further—Interest on the Debts
1,823,040
Interest payable to Commissioners of Sinking Fund, on Securities redeemed
195,788
Total Interest
2,018,828
Total
2,651,939
exclusive- of Commercial Charges not added to the Invoices, amounting to 199,806
l.
DEBTS IN INDIA.
Amount of Debt, 30th April, 1804, by No. 16
25,336,263
2,800,056
Net Amount of Debts, on 30th April, 1804
22,536,207
Amount as to Bengal, January 1805, and Madras, and Bombay, 30th April, 1805
23,197,499
Deduct, Sinking Fund, as above
3,151,065
Net Amount of Debts in 1805
25,046,436
Increase
2,510,227
DEBTS BEARING INTEREST.
Amount in April 1804 by No. 16
21,276,466
1052
Deduct, in the hands of the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund
2,245,532
Net Amount of Debts bearing Interest on 30th April, 1804
19,051,934
Amount on 30th April, 1805, generally
24,221,706
Deduct Sinking Fund, as above
2,616,739
Net Amount of Debts bearing Interest on 30th April, 1805
21,604,967
Increase
2,573,033
Amount of Interest payable on the Debt owing on 30th April, 1804, by No. 16
1,754,843
Deduct Interest on Securities in the hands of the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund
166,454
Net Amount of Interest payable on Debt owing on 30th April, 1804
1,588,389
Amount payable on Debt in April 1805
2,017,358
Deduct Sinking Fund, as above
195,788
Net Amount of interest payable on Debt owing on 30th April, 1805
1,821,576
Increase of Interest payable
233,181
1053
Mr. Johnstone
expressed the high satisfaction which he felt at the fair and candid manner, in which the noble lord had made his statement. He heartily concurred with the noble lord in the importance of the subject, of which, notwithstanding the house had uniformly treated it with so much indifference, the attendance that night furnished an additional proof. He could not, however, help thinking that the noble lord was himself somewhat to blame, in having so long delayed bringing forward the subject, the papers necessary to make the statements having been in this country for nearly twelve month's; and it having been promised, in the month of February last, that the attention of the house should be speedily called to them. In looking at the accounts, which were as full and distinct as could well be expected, he could not help remarking, that though the period to which they applied was a period of war, a great part of the increase was for civil charges. He thought, without withholding any due reward from meritorious services to the company, the expences in the civil establishment might be greatly reduced. He hoped, with the noble lord, that we should always observe moderation and good faith in our conduct with the neighbouring states; but what concern that could have in diminishing our expences, he could not conceive. The noble lord had guarded
1054
1055
Lord Henry Petty
replied to the observations of the hon. gent., who had not, he presumed to say, read the act of 1784 with attention, or he would have seen that the interpretation which he and others attempted to put upon it was unfounded. For, in the same clause in which the power of recalling a governor was vested in the directors, it was also vested in his majesty and council; but this seemed to have been overlooked by the hon. member, who condemned the exercise of a power which was necessary to maintain the pre-eminence of the present state. That hon. member would have a dependent state governed without being subject to controul, and yet his brain was unwilling to admit paradoxes. It was asserted by the hon. member, that this power of recall was quite new and extraordinary; and that it never had been exercised before, since 1784; but it seemed to be forgotten, that the same power had been before exercised by the directors. Yet it excited no complaint. But when his majesty ventured to use his undoubted prerogative, some gentlemen appeared to be anxious to raise a clamour against it, and, ministers thought proper to appoint a man of their own choice. But was any thing more natural than that the administration of the sovereign's government should choose a governor for any of the dependencies in whom they could confide? Were they not, by the statute of 1784, armed with that power? and did not their duty call upon them for the exercise of it? They were as responsible for the government of India, as for that of Ireland; and it would
1056
Lord Castlereagh
maintained, that the tendency of the revenues of India was to augment in the manner and proportion which he had described to the house, and that his predictions were falsified by events upon which it was impossible for any man to calculate, namely, by wars which he had not in his contemplation when he made the statement, to which the noble lord on the treasury bench referred. The noble lord vindicated the grounds upon which the late war in India was commenced, the manner in which it was conducted by marquis Wellesley, and also the terms upon which it was concluded by sir G. Barlow. The removal of this deserving individual from the government of India, the noble lord condemned in the most unqualified terms. That sir G, Barlow's character was the subject of universal praise, was quite notorious, but he could adduce a testimony to his merits, of the very highest order; for he could state that it was the express wish of lord Cornwallis, before he went to India, that when he should have completed the object of his mission; sir G. Barlow should be appointed to succeed him in the government. What could be the object of ministers in discharging sir G. Barlow, so soon after his appointment, he felt it impossible, upon any rational ground, to estimate. As to the debt of the India company in India, his wish was, that it should travel home, and he was sure that their circumstances and credit here would be quite sufficient soon to discharge it.
1057
Mr. Francis
after paying some compliments to the noble lord (Morpeth), for the fairness and perspicuity with which he had stated the result of the several accounts now before the house, addressed himself to the chairman, to the following effect:—That he had intended to confine himself to a few observations on the accounts, to which the noble lord had referred; but that, many extraneous topics having been introduced into the debate, particularly by the noble lord who spoke last (lord Castlereagh), he found himself obliged to take notice of some of those topics. A great deal has been said,without any direct relation to the India budget, on the impropriety of the revocation of sir G. Barlow. In the measure itself I have no concern, and, as I do not know the reasons on which it was adopted, I shall neither censure nor defend it. But I am sure that the arguments which I have heard this night against it, are not all conclusive. Nothing can be more clear and explicit than the power vested in his majesty by the act of 1793, to revoke any appointment of a governor-general made by the court of directors. The act was proposed and introduced by lord Melville. The power gives the right, and the exercise of the right is trusted to the discretion of the king's ministers. Undoubtedly, it is not to be exercised capriciously, or upon ordinary occasions. It is reserved for particular cases and circumstances, on the exigency of which the crown, by the advice of a responsible council, is to judge. Does the noble lord mean to contend that parliament has given a power, which it was intended should never be exercised? But against whom or what can it be resorted to at any time? The answer is, against an act of the court of directors. It can apply to nothing else. At the same time, I am ready to admit, that a wanton or interested application of the power, though according to law, would be just as abusive and criminal as an assumption of it against law. When you admit the trust, you must prove the abuse of it. The services of sir G. Barlow are extolled, and the confidence which the court of directors repose in his attachment to the true interests of the India company, is particularly insisted on. They consider him as a servant of their own in contradistinction to persons recommended by government. This is a new language, sir, considering the quarter it comes from. I have heard him spoken of in very different terms, by persons very
1058
1059
l.
1060
Sir Arthur Wellesley
rose and said—Before I proceed, sir, to consider the financial state of India, which is more properly the subject for discussion this night, I shall advert to the political subjects which have been referred to by other gentlemen. The hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Francis) has asked, what right Scindeah had to the fortress of Gwalior, and the territory of Gohud, which have been ceded to him by the late treaty concluded by sir G. Barlow? The hon. gent. must recollect that, subsequently to the treaty of peace concluded by Mr. Hastings with Mandajee Scindeah (the predecessor of Dowlut Rao Scindeah), that chieftain attacked the Rajah of Gohud, and deprived him of all his territories. The family of Scindeah had remained in possession of those territories, and of the fortress of Gwalior, from that time, until the war which commenced in 1803; when the fort of Gwalior was taken, and the country of Gohud fell into the possession of one of the detachments under the orders of the commander-in-chief, lord Lake.—Under the 9th article of the treaty of peace which I was the instrument of concluding with Doulut Rao Scindeah, at the end of the year 1803, the territory of Gohud and the fortress of Gwalior, were to remain in the possession, and at the disposal of the British government. This will be obvious to any man who reads that article, or the conferences in the negociations of the treaty, which are published; and indeed the operation of the 9th article upon this territory was acknowledged by Scindeah's ministers. The governor-general, lord Wellesley, however, having adverted to the situation in
1061
1062
1063
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Estimate of the late Acquisitions in India, from Conquest and Subsidy, taking the Revenues at the lowest possible scale.
REVENUE.
Gross Revenue.
Net Revenue
In Sonat Rupees.
IN THE DOAB
—
—
—
Etawa
13,91,818
Furruckabad
6,30,084
Seharunpore
3,42,351
Ditto under Moradahad
2,99,015
Ditto under the resident at Delhi
5,50,273
35,13,541
Deduct Tasseeldary, and other allowances, .pensions, mofussil charges,—and balances irrecoverable, estimated altogether at 20 per cent.
7,02,708
28,10,833
Sumroo Begum's Jagheer
10,00,000
1064
l.
1065
WEST OF THE JUMMA
Agra, exclusive of the Pergunnahs, Dholepore, &c. at first reserved to Scindeah, and now ceded to the company
10,64,255
Districts settled by the resident at Delhi
4,25,594
Syer of Delhi, &c.
1,83,689
Districts unsettled, suppose
4,25,000
20,98,538
Deduct 20 per cent. as above
4,19,707
16,78,831
In Hindustan rupees of sorts
54,89,664
52,70,076
CUTTACK
13,51,405
Deduct 20 per cent. as above
2,70,281
Arcot rupees
10,80,124
10,37,879
BROACH
10,00,000
Deduct 20 per cent. as above
2,00000
Estimated equal to Sonat rupees
8,00,000
8,00,000
Total of Revenue of rupees of sorts
73,70,788
Ditto in Sonat rupees
71,07,955
Sicca rupees
66,81,478
Or, pounds sterling
835,184
SUBSIDIES.
Gross Revnue.
Net Revenue.
In Sonat Rupees.
FROM THE GUICKWAR.
—
—
—
Free gift
2,00,300
Subsidy
6,97,275
Syer Revenue in the Attaweesy
60,000
—in Guzerat
66,000
1,26,009
FROM THE PEISHWAR.
Bundlecund Gross Revenue
15,72,974
Deduct 20 per cent. as above
3,14,595
Stipend to Shumsheer Bahadur
4,00,000
7,14,595
In rupees of sorts
8,58,379
In Sonat rupees
8,24,047
Subsidy in the Attaveesy
6,50,300
Ditto in Guzerat
1,72,300
Syer Revenue in the Attaveesy
1,10,000
Ditto Guzerat
8,000
In rupees supposed equal to Sonats
9,40,000
17,64,047
ADDITIONAL SUBSIDY.
—
From the Rajah of Travencore
3,48,000
Total Subsidies Sonat rupees
31,35,322
Or Sicca Rupees
29,47,203
Or, Pounds Sterling
368,400
Total Revenues Pounds Sterling
1,203,584
ABSTRACT.
ACQUISITION
Sonat Rupees.
Sicca Rupees.
Pounds Sterling.
Total £. Sterl.
In Revenue
71,07,955
66,81,478
835,184
In Subsidies
31,35,322
29,47,293
368,400
1,203 584
l.
1066
1067
l.
l.
The actual Civil Charges in 1802–3 were
£4,599,372
The actual Military Charges were
6,360,614
From which subtract
500,000
Remains
5,860,614
supplies for Bencoolen, &c.
*
Making a total of charge in 1802–3
£10,656,834
Estimate of the Annual Increased Civil and Military Charges incurred in India since the Year 1802–3.
PENSIONS AND JAGHEERS.
Rups. of Sorts. Son. Rups.
Scindeah and his family
8,00,000
Royal family at Delhi, including the expence of irregular corps
17,00,000
*
l.
1068
Rups of Sorts.
Son. Rups.
Begum Sumroo
10,00,000
Total in Rupees of Sorts
34,00,000
or 32,64,000
CIVIL ESTABLISHMENTS.
Salary and establishments of seven judges and magistrates
3,92,000
Ditto of six collectors
2,23,200
Residency at Delhi
1,44,000
Civil charges at Bombay
40,800
—
8,00,000
Total of civil charges, &c. in St Rs.
40,64,000
Ditto in Sicca Rupees
38,20,160
Total of Ditto in Pounds Sterling
£477,520
MILITARY CHARGES.
IN BENGAL.
Two regiments of native cavalry, at 20,000 rupees per month
40,000
Seven ditto of native infantry, at 30,000 each per month
210,000
Horse artillery
2,000
Extra cattle to the increase
10,000
Off-reckonings
17,000
Wear and tear of two regiments of cavalry
5000
Military stores,contingencies, buildings, &c. not fixed in the amount
25,000
Per month
3,09,000
Per month
37,08,000
FORT ST. GEORGE.
One regiment of native cavalry, including off-reckonings
22,100
Four regiments of native infantry, at 29,000 each.
116,000
Off-reckonings
6,400
Military stores, and other charges
15,000
Wear and tear of horses for one regiment
2,500
Per month
1,62,000
Per ann.
19,44,000
BOMBAY.
One regiment of infantry
29,000
Off-reckonings, &c.
1,600
Per month
30,600
Per ann.
3,67,200
Total increase of the military charges in Sonata Rupees
60,19,200
Ditto in Sicca Rupees
56,40,000
Ditto in Pounds Sterling
£705,000
ABSTRACT.
Civil Charges, Pensions, &c.
Sonant
Sicca
Pounds
Total
40,64,000
38,20,160
477,520
Military Ditto.
1,182,520
60,19,200
56,40,000
705,000
1069
1070
1071
Charges of 1802–3
£10,656,834
Additional civil charges, rendered necessary by treaties of subsidy, peace, &c.
477,520
Additional military charges
705,000
Total future charges
11,839,054
The revenues, as before stated, will be
14,668,119
Leaving a surplus revenue of
£2,328,765
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.;
l.
l.
l.
1072
l.
l.
l.
l.
30th of April, 1804, is
Ct. Rs. 2,80,00,563.
On the 30th of April, 1805, it is
Ct. Rs. 3,15,10,648
Difference to be added to the assets calculated up to April 1805
35,10,085
In estimating the assets to April 1806, it is proper to add to them the sum which will be in the hands of the commissioners of the sinking fund in April 1806, viz.
Interest upon the sum of 3,15,10648 current rupees, for one year, from April 1805, to April 1806, at 8 per cent., is about
25,00.000
1073
To the assets then, as they stood in April 1804. viz,
£17,252,399
Must be added the sum at Madras omitted
500,000
The additional sum stated to be in the hands of the commissioners of the sinking fund, in April 1805
351,008
The interest upon 31,510,648, Rs. or £3,151,064, for one year to April 1806
250,000
And the total of the assets, in April 1806, will be
£18,353,407
l.
l.
l.
The revenues at that time were
£8,059,580
The charges, including supplies to Bencoolen, &c.
765,654
The interest of the Debt was
603,926
Leaving a deficiency of resource or a surplus net charge, of
194,700
The Debt in 1798 was
11,032,645
The assets in India were
9,922,903
In April 1793, the revenues of India were
£8,294,399
The charges, including Bencoolen, &c. were
6,155,968
The interest of the Debt was
526,205
The Debt was
7,362,190
The assets were
8,834,538
The surplus revenue, after providing for all charges, exclusive of receipts for sales, &c. was
1,612,226
1074
l.
l.
l.
Europe, was
£9,898,794
Supplies to China
339,444
Amount advanced in India to the king's and company's ships during the same period, was
551,952
Making a total disbursed on account of London, of
10,784,190
The amount of supplies received from Europe,in the same period, for bills drawn, stores, merchandise, export sales, and bullion, was
3,744,425
Leaving a balance of
7,039,765
against London.
l.
l.
1075
years, from 1793 to 1798, was
£3,665,455
The increase of the assets in those 5 years was
1,088,365
Those in 1793 being
8,834,538
Those in 1798 being
9,922,903
And the actual increase of the debt, in comparison with the assets, was
£2,557,090
l.
l.
l.
1076
l.
l.
1077
l.
1078
April 1798, to April 1804, was
£9,619,348
Supplies to China
1,761,263
Of advances to the King's and to the Company's chartered ships, in the same period
448,931
Making a total advanced in India, up to 1804
11,829,542
In making up the account of the sums advanced in India, on account of the home concern, the following must be added:—Advances for Ceylon
1,182,472
Making a total advanced, for the home concern, up to April 1804
£13,012,014
l.
l.
1079
l.
would be, annually
£285,820
And, for eight years, to 1806
2,126,560
The interest upon the sums borrowed, since 1798, each for their respective number of years, to 1806
633,005
Making a total of
£2,759,565
l.
l.
l.
The assets in India, in April, 1798,were
£9,922,903
In April 1806, supposing them the same as in April 1804, they were
17,952,299
1080
Increase of assets in that period is
7,229,493
Subtract the increase of assets, from the amount of the increased Debt since 1798, and the remainder will be
9,440,252
Which is the net increase of Debt. Set-off against the net increase of Debt the sum of
3,147,725
l.
l.
1081
l.
l.
l.
1082
l.
1798
1803-4
Increase.
S. Rupees.
S. Rupees.
S. Rupees.
Mint. duties
64540
68042
3502
Post Office
140398
248127
147729
Stamp duties
92416
547137
454721
Licenses for sale of spirituous liquors
47531
138209
90678
Fees and Fines
6606
96049
89443
Provincial police
427928
456217
29289
Land revenue
29825983
31805421
1979438
Salt
10302783
15374223
5071440
Opium
2084184
3989200
1905016
Customs
1251469
3228865
2023396
Increase of the old revenues
Sicca Rs. 10794652
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Whitshed Keene
said, he greatly pre-
1083
Mr. C. Grant
had a statement in his hand which he had reason to believe to be correct; the only mode of ascertaining where the error lay, was by comparison; it was impossible then to enter into the detail; it might be done upon the report.
Mr. Prinsep
rose, and declared, that he could not allow the committee to rise without first delivering his opinion, at great length, on the alarming aspect of the company's affairs, whom he declared to be in a state of absolute insolvency. Rather than again forego his privilege, of which he had been more than once deprived in the way now attempted, he would count the house. He was ready at that late hour to enter into this investigation, or to adjourn the debate.
Mr. Hobhouse
the chairman of the committee, stated that the hon. member might perhaps have an opportunity of the comparison previous to the bringing up of the report; it would then be equally competent to him to urge his objections as it was at the present moment.
Mr. Paull
was confident, that, upon the resolutions being taken into further consideration, he would be able to disprove every part of the hon. general's statement.
Sir A. Wellesley
declared, that he was extremely willing to shew his statement to the hon. director, or any other member who might be desirous of making a comparison with any statement of his own.
Mr. G. Smith
denied that the company was in a state of insolvency, and observed, that such an assertion as that which the hon. alderman had made, required some further explanation.
Mr. Prinsep
was proceeding to account for the opinion which he had advanced, when
Lord Castlereagh
observed, that, from the hon. member's course of reasoning, it was evident that his explanation would occupy more time than was desirable at the then late hour. On the suggestion of lord Morpeth, the chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again of Tuesday next.
1084
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, July 11.
[TRAINING BILL.) Earl Spencer
moved the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a committee on the Training bill. His lordship observed, that this bill was one to which he could scarcely anticipate any objection. It was founded on the exercise of his majesty's undoubted prerogative, a prerogative which had never been disputed, that of calling out all those who were able to bear arms for the defence of the country against an invading army. The only question that could arise was as to the means of exercising that prerogative. Under the present circumstances of the country, and looking as we must do to the enormously increased power of France, it was evident that it was absolutely necessary that a large efficient force should be kept up ready for the exigency of the moment. The object of the present bill was to train to the use of arms 200,000 men, who might, in case of necessity, come in aid of the other force of the country. It was not to be said that because we had already a large force, that therefore it was unnecessary to resort to other measures; it should be remembered that, on our vast extent of coast, it was impossible strictly to guard every point; it was therefore the more necessary that there should be an efficient force ready to bear down upon any point where their services might be most wanted. Provision was made in this bill, that it should interfere as little as possible with the varied pursuits of the people, or break in much upon their convenience; and, at the same time, an option was given to those who might not wish, for various reasons, to be trained with the persons on whom this bill would generally operate, or who could not go out to be trained without great injury to their business, to pay instead a pecuniary fine. It was also provided, that the number to be called out should be balloted for, which was thought, and justly in his opinion, the fairest mode of choosing the persons to be trained, thereby avoiding all partiality. He was convinced that, when the bill was thoroughly understood in the country, the voluntary zeal and ardour of the people would render it unnecessary to carry the compulsory provisions into execution. The bill might not be immediately operative, but he looked forward to the most beneficial permanent effects from such a system. It
1085
Lord Melville
said, it was not his wish to oppose any measure which his majesty's ministers considered necessary for the defence of the country, but he must beg leave to express his doubts as to the propriety or utility of the present bill. In considering this measure, he naturally looked to the present state of the military force of the country; and when he found that we had at present a volunteer force of from 3 to 400,000 men, in addition to the regular army and militia, he was induced to ask, where was the necessity of this measure? We had already a large force of a much superior description to any that this bill could give; a force which had arisen out of the voluntary spirit, the zeal and the ardour of the country; a force, in contemplating which, every man might sleep sound in his bed, and consider the country secure. Why then resort to compulsory means, when we had already a sufficient force, and when the country was already secure? To resort now to such a bill as the present, would tend to dishearten and discourage that voluntary force, to whom the country were so much indebted, by telling them that they were of little use; that, notwithstanding all their zeal and ardour, it was still necessary to resort to compulsory means to ensure the security of the country. He did not mean to insinuate that noble lords on the other side had any wish or intention to discourage the volunteers; but declarations had been made, which had gone forth to the country, and which certainly tended to damp the ardour and the spirit of those who had so loyally and so patriotically stepped forward in the hour of danger, to take up arms in defence of the country. How was such a force as the present to be properly disciplined? How was it to be officered? No means were pointed out by which such a force was to be rendered really efficient. A great expence would be incurred in carry-
1086
The Earl of Moira
said, the viscount agreed in the necessity of having a, large efficient force under the present circumstances of the country; the only difference of opinion between them was as to the quality of that force. He had been appealed to by the noble viscount with respect to what
1087
1088
The Earl of Westmoreland
contended, that the bill imposed a heavy burthen upon the country, without the probability of deriving from it any adequate advantage, There were, he believed, 15,000 parishes; and how were the men in these different parishes to be trained? how many serjeants and constables must there be? how many drums and fifes? what was to be done with the arms? were the serjeants to travel in post-chaises or balloons? There appeared to him to be no adequate provision for car, Lying the object of the bill into effect, The bill, besides, threw a slur upon the volunteers, by declaring that their services were inadequate. It had been said, that opinions given respecting the volunteers had been misrepresented; but was it meant to be stated, that all the newspapers, and all the short-hand writers, had been bribed to circulate a misrepresentation through the country? Were not other measures, not favourable to the volunteers, suggested by his majesty's servants, through the mouth of his majesty?
Lord Grenville
spoke to order. The noble lord was, he conceived, irregular,
1089
The Earl of Westmoreland
said, if the expression he had used was improper, he would say, measures that had been announced by his majesty through the mouths of his servants.
Lord Grenville
again spoke to order, declaring it disorderly for any noble person to say, that his majesty spoke through the mouth of any member of parliament.
The Earl of Westmoreland
apologised for having used the name of his majesty in any way that was conceived improper; but contended that, in discussing the opinions used in another place, he had only done what had been done before, in the course of the debate. His lordship resumed his arguments against the bill, which, he contended, was not calculated to produce any advantage to the country.
Lord Sidmouth
defended the bill, which, he contended, was not near so rigorous in its provisions, as the bill of a similar description, brought forward when the noble lord (Westmoreland) and himself were in administration. The object of the bill was, to raise a force which might be rendered essentially useful, either by being incorporated with the regulars or the militia, or, in other modes, in the event of an attempt on the part of the enemy. It had been truly said, by a great and eminent character, that we might have, in this country, what an enemy could not bring with him—an armed people, whom no enemy could conquer. It was in this view that the bill was essentially important, as contributing materially to that great object. It had been insinuated by the noble viscount (Melville), that this measure was a breach of faith with the people, in as much as, by the last training bill, compulsory measures were not to be adopted, if the volunteers, to a certain extent, came forward. That bill, however, only authorised his majesty to suspend, in that event, the operation of the compulsory clauses; but did not, nor could, affect his majesty's prerogative to call out the people whenever necessary. The present measure was rendered necessary, in order to raise a force sufficient for the purposes for which it was wanted, and which would come in aid of the volunteers.
Lord Eldon
declared, that no man more highly approved than he had done, and that none could, at this moment, be more firmly convinced than he was, of the propriety and
1090
Lord Grenville,
after the able statements, in support of the measure, made by his noble friends near him, should not have thought it necessary to say a word on the subject, had it not been for the observations of the learned lord who spoke last. For the right hon. gent., now no more, to whom the noble and learned lord had alluded, no person could feel more strongly than he did. He had been his dearest friend; and when he had differed from him, it was with sincere regret; but, at the same time, he could not sacrifice to him his judgment, and every idea of propriety. With respect to the opinions of his majesty's ministers as to the volunteers, every individual member of administration in this
1091
1092
Lord Hawkesbury
entered into an investigation of the different measures alluded to by the noble lord; and particularly of the great advantages of voluntary services, which, he was convinced, would be greatly affected by the present measure; a measure which, in his opinion, would be equally expensive, and by no means so efficient as the voluntary force, He should not, however, press the matter to a question.
The Earl of Rosslyn shewed
that the volunteer service could not at all be affected by the present measure; which was not a substitute for, but an addition to, the volunteer system. He took a view of the different immunities, such as exemption from ballot for the militia, army of reserve,&c., which had been formerly held out to them; and maintained that, instead of being degraded, as it had been termed by this bill, it also went to encourage the entering into the volunteer corps, by exempting all such from the provisions of the bill. He asked, too, if it could be contended, that the same number of volunteers would continue having nothing but the August establishment, while the contributions were discontinued ? He adverted to what had fallen from the learned lord (Eldon) as to the volunteers being the saviours of the constitution; and trusted it could not even be insinuated, that such an idea was at all well founded, in the present state of the country.
Lord Eldon
in explanation, declared, that he had never either insinuated or. dreamt of such a thing. He had simply alluded to the volunteers at the time of their formation; and had attributed to them, he was convinced, correctly, that this country had escaped those destructive and desolating principles, by which the liberties of the rest of Europe had been overturned. —The question was then put, the house went into a committee, and the bill was reported.
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Friday, July 11.
[GRENADA AND ST. VINCENT'S LOAN BILL.]
A Bill was brought in, for vesting,
1093
Mr. Baker
took a view of the whole of the transaction, observing that, in consequence of the calamities which occurred in the islands of Grenada and St. Vincent's, in 1800, an act of parliament was passed, to enable government to make certain advances to the merchants anti planters of these islands, on sufficient security being given for the re-payment. Of this money, the sum of 240,000
l
Mr. M'Dowall
requested the permission of the house to explain, that ever since the year 1800, when this loan was made, he had used every possible exertion to repay this debt to government. He had ample funds, not only for paying that, but every other demand upon this firm; but, in all his efforts to dispose of the great property he possessed in Scotland, he was, for some reason or other, constantly thwarted and impeded by the first law officers of the crown in Scotland, under the late government. Even at this moment, he had a property of 180,000
l
The Attorney-General
explained, that when he came into his present official situation, he found this large debt due to government; and, for the better and more speedy recovery of it, he wished to have the sale of the property vested in
1094
Mr. R. Dundas
Mr. M'Dowall
said, what he had principally to request was, that the house would suspend its judgment till they should be in complete possession of the whole, from documents which he should, at any time, be prepared to lay before them.
Mr. Johnstone
said that, notwithstanding this bill for vesting the sale in trustees, he hoped the present securities for the debt would not be released, on account of any difference of opinion between the late and present law officers of the crown in Scotland.
Mr. Francis
said, he objected to the principle of these loans originally; and tile present bill was a proof, that such advances of money to individuals were not within the proper functions of the government.—The bill was then read a first time.
[BILL SENT BY MISTAKE TO THE LORDS.] Mr. Hobhouse
felt himself under the necessity of calling the attention of the house to a circumstance which might involve some blame to himself; but in which he trusted to the indulgence of the house. A bill (sir J. Gordon's Divorce Bill) had been taken from the table of the house, and carried up to the lords, which had not passed this house; the lords were unwilling to part with the bill, without a message from the house to recall it; a message, therefore, he was under the necessity of moving for. There were precedents of similar mistakes, and similar messages; but he could not call upon the house, without taking some blame to himself for an inadvertency which, he supposed, must have happened to him acting as chairman of the committee of ways and means, He moved, that a message be sent to the lords, desiring that their lordships would send back the said bill.
Mr. Baker
was not surprised that such mistakes should occur,when the duty of the chairman of the committee of ways and means was performed by so many persons. He wished to know, who was the real chairman?
Mr. Hobhouse
said, it was well known that the chairman (Mr. Alexander) was much absent, in making preparations for
1095
[DEBTS OF TUE NABOBS OF ARCOT.] Mr. Hobhouse
moved the order of the day for the 3d reading of the Nabobs of Arcot's bill.
Mr. Ryder
rose to move, by way of amendment, that the words " appointing the commissioners to report to the house the grounds of their decision on every claim that was brought before them," be erased. He contended, that this clause made the house a court of appeal, and would prevent the decisions of the commissioners from being final. Besides, they might, sometimes, find themselves obliged to decide in opposition to the evidence that was laid before them; and when this evidence was submitted to the house, it would not furnish them with the grounds of the commissioners' decision. He conceived the commissioners to be the ultimate resort in this case, since they were a sort of arbitrators between the East-India Co. and the creditors of the nabob.
Lord R. Petty
stated the origin of the clause now objected to; which had been proposed as an addition to another which he had introduced, for the purpose of obliging commissioners to report their decisions to the. house from time to time. However, he saw no material objection to the amendment now proposed; but he should wish to hear the opinions of his legal friends on the subject.
Mr. Windham
supported the clause as it now stood; and observed, that it did not bind the house to investigate the grounds on which the commissioners decided in any instance; but merely went to enable parliament to review their proceedings whenever it might judge proper,
Mr. Perceval
considered. the motion to be liable to many objections. The commissioners stood exactly in the light of arbitrators between the creditors and the East-India Co., under a decree of parliament. That house might disagree with the judgment of the commissioners, whether the motives for their decision should be right or wrong. The claims for such a sum
1096
Mr. Francis
said, that a bill which was to dispose of 5,600,000
l
toto
The Attorney-General
said, the clause alluded to did not proceed from any distrust of the commissioners; but was thought to be one which must be desirable even to themselves. Though the parties were the creditors, and the East-India Co. the debtors; yet it was a public measure; for, if it was of a private nature, why come to parliament at all? He thought, also, that the different debts might be classed, and the grounds of the decision laid before the house, without repeating the whole of the evidence.
Mr. Rose
thought, that if the commissioners were, as he believed them to be, fit and competent persons to enquire, the decision must he safer in their hands, than in those of that assembly. He disapproved of the whole of the clause, as the house could not possibly examine, itself, and decide up, on all of the cases; and should not, there fore, give its sanction to the validity of any of the debts.
Mr. Sheridan
said, that every word he had heard, convinced him that this was an unfit commission. It was, in reality, the public money by which the debts were to be liquidated; for how was the public to be paid by the East-India Co., if their revenues were swallowed up by the payment of these debts? Who were the fit persons for deciding on these debts? Were they not commissioners so constituted, as that their decision should be final? Was it not monstrous, that commissioners should be
1097
Lord Castlereagh
was, also, for leaving the whole in the hands of the commissioners. The house should not give any additional validity to the claims, nor make itself a court of appeal. If it did, the consequence would be, to have the table of the house covered with a mass of useless papers.
Mr. Sheridan
again observed, that if the house directed the commissioners to report the grounds on which they decided, it must be either fur the purpose of revising them, or to gratify an idle curiosity.
Mr. Grant
said, there could be no uncertainty in the business of the commissioners; who were all men of high character and honour, and were bound to decide upon oath. This agreement was not of a novel nature, as it was conformable to the practice observed in the whole of the East-India government.—After a few more observations, Mr. Ryder consented to withdraw his amendment.
Mr. Johnstone
moved, as an amendment, that none of the commissioners, hereafter to be appointed for investigating these claims, should be members of that house; but, that tins exemption should not extend to those who had been already appointed; which, after some observations, was withdrawn, and the bill read a third time and passed.
[TREASURERSHIP OF THE NAVY.] Mr. Whitbread
rose, pursuant to the notice which he had given on a former occasion, not with a view, in the present state of the house, and at this late period of the session, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of the treasurership of the navy; but for the purpose of moving, that, early in the next session, the house should take into consideration the act of the 25th of the king, intitled, " An Act for the better regulation of the office of Treasurer of the Navy." Every member who now heard him, he apprehended, had read, with attention, the report made by the committee appointed to examine the journals of the house of lords, relative to
1098
l
1099
Mr. Leicester
rose, not with any intention to object to the motion of the hon .gent.; but, because some things which he said appeared to him so extraordinary that he could not pass them over without observation. He seemed to have supposed that the learned judges had determined that embezzling the public money was no offence cognizable by law. The judges had determined no such thing.—[Here Mr. Whitbread, by permission of the house rose, and read the following extract from the journals of the lords: "Whether it was lawful for the treasurer of the navy, before the passing of the act of 25 Geo. III. c. 31 (and more especially when, by warrant from his majesty, his salary, as such treasurer as aforesaid, was augmented, in full satisfaction for all wages, fees, and other profit and emoluments.) to apply any sum of money imprested to him for navy services to any other use whatsoever, public or private, without express authority. for so doing; and whether such application, by such treasurer, would have been a misdemeanour, or punishable by information or indictment? "The lord chief justice of the court of common pleas delivered the unanimous opinion of the judges upon the said question: "That it was not lawful for the treasurer of the navy, before .the 25 Geo. III. c.31, although after the warrant stated in the question, to apply any sum of money imprested to him for navy service, to other uses, public or private, without express authority for so doing, so as to constitute a misdemeanour punishable by information or indictment;" and gave his reasons,] Mr. Leicester, in continuation,
1100
bond fide
Mr. Whitbread
hoped, that he should be indulged with the liberty of saying a few words in reply. He had never mentioned the word " embezzlement " at all. The learned gentleman meant, he supposed, by embezzling, the making use of the public money, and not bringing it forward at the making up of the accounts. He did not say any thing about that; nor had he any such thing in contemplation. What he I meant was, the applying of the public money to private purposes for a time; and this, he and his friends had contended, was an offence punishable at common law. As to the construction of the act of the 25th of the king, if the treasurer, or his deputy, might take out the money from the bank for naval purposes, and afterwards apply it to purposes of private emolument, then, he repeated, that the public had, up to this time, been labouring under a most gross delusion; for it was utterly impossible to suppose, that the legislature had any other intention than, that the money drawn from the bank should be immediately applied to naval purposes, and to no other whatever. He again repeated, that his great difficulty would be, to find words more binding upon the treasurer, not to draw out the money for any other than naval purposes, and not to apply it to any other purpose when drawn. It was, that we blended the liberty allowed, with the use
1101
Mr. R. Dundas
admitted that, according to the opinions of most persons, some new regulations were necessary, with regard to the law upon this subject. But, that the purpose for which he now rose was, to advert to something which had fallen from the hon. mover. That hon. gent. professed to think, that the house of lords grounded its judgment upon that opinion of the judges to which he appeared to object. But, he could not allow, that that hon. gent. or any other person, was competent to say, upon what the lords were induced to decide in the case alluded to; neither was the hon. gent. correct, in stating that that house should infer, from the admissions of lord Melville, that the noble lord connived at Mr. Trotter's application of the public money to his own profit.
Mr. Sheridan
thought that, after the opinion of the judges, it was absolutely necessary that the law, upon this subject, should be satisfactorily settled. But, notwithstanding these opinions, he should take care that, while he remained in his present office, the affairs of it should not be managed, in any respect, contrary to what the law prescribed; and his conception of that law was this, beyond all doubt, that neither pay-master,
1102
bond fide
Mr. Perceval
threw out, for the consideration of gentlemen who proposed to bring in a bill upon this subject, whether, if the arrangement were enacted, such as the right hon. gent. had just described, the sub-accountants might not be open to the same objections which were applied to the paymaster; that is, whether those sub-accountants might not be open to a similar abuse of the public money.
Mr. Whitbread
thought such a consequence improbable. It was to be recollected, that the sub-accountants, on the trial, refused to withdraw the public money from the bank at the particular instance of Trotter; and by no means in consequence of their own wish, for it appeared that inconveniences resulted to them from the transfer.
Mr. Sheridan
could not admit that the case, with regard to the sub-accountants, could ever be subject to the same objections as those which applied to the paymaster. It was obvious, that they could not be so to the same extent. Indeed, he thought it quite practicable so to watch the sub-accountants; so to establish a check between the. bank directors and the navy pay-office, as to detect any drawing of mo-
1103
Mr. Fuller
adverting to a notice of a motion which he had given, relative to the expenses incurred by lord Melville during his late trial, stated, that in consequence of the declaration of the noble lord's son, that, as no delay had occurred in preparing for the the, or, in its subsequent conduct; no more expense had occurred to the noble lord, than if the trial had taken place in the chamber of parliament, he was induced to wave his intended motion.
[ROYAL FAMILY ANNUITIES BILL.] Lord H
Petty moved the 2d reading or this bill.
Colonel Wood
said, he felt it his duty to object to it. He then repeated the arguments he had used against it, a few nights ago; and thought this an unnecessary expenditure of the public money. The noble lord, in bringing forward the measure, had stated, as one of his chief reasons for doing so, the great increase which had taken place in all the necessaries of life, since these provisions were originally made. He allowed this to be the case; but these royal personages only felt the pressure in common with others; and that pressure was most severe on the great mass of the people, who were nearly borne down by taxes. He said he verily believed that, if he were to ask M. Talleyrand, the prime minister of Buonaparte, what mode he thought would be best to be pursued, in order to throw this country into the grasp and dominion of his master, he would say, it was to make the people dissatisfied with their government; make them dissatisfied with their taxes, and the people would be ready to throw themselves into the arms of Buonaparte. Those noble dukes held many places and emoluments, besides their original establishments of 12,000
l
1104
Mr. W. Smith
expressed his confidence, that his noble friend would not need the lecture on economy that had been just read to him. He could not avoid coinciding in some of the opinions of the hon. gent. who had just sat down. He praised highly the conduct of the duke of York, in declining to apply for any additional provision. Were the depreciation of money, and the increased prices of every article of life, alone to be considered, he was willing to admit, that the claim preferred was a just one. But there were other circumstances, which, in his opinion, ought to be attended to. It ought to be recollected, that several of the younger branches of the royal family enjoyed emoluments, independent of their parliamentary provision. It was with a view to ascertain those emoluments, that he had made his motion the other evening ; and really, until the papers, for which he had then moved, were on the table, he did not see how the house could, with propriety, pass the bill before them. It had been well observed by lord Bacon, that in some situations, voluntary poverty was a debt that a man owed to his country. Far was he from wishing, that the illustrious personages in question should he plunged, or allowed to remain, in poverty. He was solicitous, that they should not be deprived of the due appendages of their rank; but it became a question, whether, or not, the measure proposed was calculated to increase the respect that it was so desirable to secure to them?
Mr. Rose
thought the increase that was proposed to the allowances of the younger branches of the royal family was very reasonable, and much less than was barely necessary to meet the depreciation of money since those allowances were fixed.
Lord H. Petty
thought, that the only question was, whether, when the salaries of every subordinate person in the state had been, within a few years, so much increased, it was wise to exclude, from the benefit of that general augmentation, a class of persons whose splendour and dignity were so intimately connected with those of the nation. Alluding to the duke of York, he described his situation as very different from that of his royal brothers. The income of his royal highness, independent of his emoluments as commander
1105
l
[VOTE OF THANKS TO THE VOLUNTEERS.] Sir Henry Mildmay rose,
in pursuance to a notice, to call the attention of the house to the merits, the services, the zeal, and perseverance, of the volunteers of the united kingdom. He had no hesitation in saying,that it was the full conviction of his mind, that it was to them that the country was indebted for its security when threatened by invasion. Besides the general ardour which gentlemen from every county might bear testimony to, there were some particular instances of their promptitude and alacrity in the course of the last year. On an alarm of invasion on the coasts of Yorkshire, all the volunteers of the neighbouring districts pressed forward, with that ardour and zeal which the country had a right to expect from them. When there was an alarm of invasion in Scotland, the volunteers flocked from the farthest extremity of that country, to what they supposed was the seat of danger; and it was not merely for their spirit, that they deserved to be admired; but such was their discipline and efficiency, that lord Moira declared, that he would lead them with confidence against any enemy that could invade the country. Not only the earl of Moira had testified the efficiency of the volunteers of Scotland; but the inspecting field-officers, (who were men of high character, and could not be supposed to falsify the truth,) generally reported the volunteers as well advanced in discipline, and fit to serve with the troops of the line. They did not consider the volunteers as mere scarecrows, and persons that would spread confusion. He thought there was nothing more praiseworthy in the volunteers, than their determined perseverance. The corps that he commanded, and most of those with which he was acquainted, still mustered strong. He objected, principally, to the abolition of permanent duty, and the reduction of the drill serjeants. He concluded by moving, " That this house doth thankfully acknowledge, and highly approve of the services of the different corps of Yeomanry and Volunteers of the united kingdom; and doth think it necessary to record its decided opinion, that the due encouragement of the zeal and patriotism which the Yeomanry and Volunteers have so eminently displayed, in the maintenance of their establishment and the preservation of their discipline, would contribute, in an essential degree, to the
1106
Mr. Dent
seconded the motion. After a general panegyric of the Volunteers, he took, notice of several expressions which were made in contempt and derision of them. He particularly dwelt on what had been advanced by an hon. member (col. Craufurd), respecting the trade of col. Birch; as if, because he made pies and jellies, he was, on that account, to be excluded from the service of his country. After repeating many of the expressions, which had, at different times, been imputed to a right hon, secretary (Mr. Windham), he concluded by stating his opinion, that ministers dared not to move the previous question upon this motion of thanks to the Volunteers; for that, although minorities, in that house, must yield to majorities, yet it was not always to be expected that the public should remain quiet.
Sir R. Milbanke
said, he had the honour of commanding a corps of Volunteers, who were as zealous as any set of men in the world. He entertained the same opinion of the whole body; they were honest, he knew, and, he believed, bold; and, therefore, deserved the thanks of their country. In this vote he concurred with all his heart; but he wished, very much, that the hon. bart. had confined himself to a vote of thanks, as he conceived that his majesty's ministers should have a power of regulating the force of the country in, whatever-way was considered best for its support.
General Phipps
said, he was one of those, who were appointed to inspect the Volunteers; and he had certainly stated, in his report, that many of them were fit to serve. in the line, and better than some of the militia; but there were none of them superior to the regular army. He did not wish, he said, to make any severe remark on the conduct of his majesty's ministers; but he really thought the Volunteers had been dispirited. It was much to be regretted, he thought, that they no longer had the advantage of the inspecting field-officers, and, also, that the drill serjeants had been discontinued, as, without the advantages to be derived from them, he did not think they could be of much service to their country. The hon. general concluded, by declaring that, from his high opinion of the Volunteers, it was impossible he could act otherwise than support the motion.
Mr. Secretary Windham
said, the hon. general seemed to labour under a mistake,
1107
bene decessit
1108
Mr. Fuller
thought the right hon. gent. had been, in error, with respect to the volunteers; and it would be more consistent with his manliness, to avow it. If the right hon, gent. could be brought to recant his errors, and make the volunteers the backbone of his system, he might raise such a military force as no enemy could overcome, and lease the army completely disposable. As to the resolution, he thought the house ought to agree to it, as it would make up the breach between the right hon. gent. and the volunteers, and record the opinion of the house, that the volunteers had deserved well of their country.
Lord Ossulston
stated some arguments against the resolution, in the shape and manner in which it had been brought forward, and concluded by moving the previous question upon it.
Mr. Bankes
said, it was argued that this vote of thanks should not be given, because there was no change made with respect to the volunteers. A great change had been made in the army and navy; as, in consequence of the high opinion the country entertained of them, their pay had been augmented. Now, With regard to the volunteers, the direct contrary course had been taken; and he, therefore, thought it was
1109
Sir R. Williams
said, he could not conceive a milder, or more proper motion than this, which had, for its object, to thank those who had merited well of their country, and he gave it his hearty concurrence.
Mr. Wilberforce
thought, that the only way in which any return could be made to -the volunteers was, by such a mark of parliamentary approbation. If any particular expressions were exceptionable he should wish, that the hon. mover would accede to some alteration, but none which would diminish the force of any language indicative of the favourable sentiments that house entertained of the conduct of the volunteers.
General Tarleton
contemplated the volunteers with respect: 25,000 were ready to defend the metropolis of the empire; and, he thought, with no troops, whether of the militia or the regulars, would the capital be in a better state of security, than
1110
Mr. Sheridan rose
and said: Sir; although I could not have remained wholly silent during this debate; yet I wished to have heard the sentiments of others, before I delivered my opinion; but what has fallen from two hon. gentlemen, who have recently spoken, has induced me to abandon my original design, and to avail myself of this opportunity to solicit the attention of the house. I am desirous to abstain from all party allusions; and never wish to censure those who, from early attachment, and long habit, feel a peculiar ardour of affection for the late right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt); but, whether the hon. general belongs to that number, I will not pretend to determine. I think that gallant officer was not perfectly correct, when he ascribed the impassioned exclamation of the late minister to his regret that the affairs of the empire should be consigned to the present servants of the crown: that eminent person, no doubt, fully expected that his own companions in office would remain in power, and, under this painful reflection, his anxiety for his country is fully explained; for what would have become of it in such hands, is sufficiently obvious. As to the measures that have been brought forward for the defence of the country, I have absented myself from the house whilst they have been under discussion, because of my opinion upon them. They were not the measures of my right hon. friend, but of the whole of his majesty's cabinet; and when founded on authorities which I so
1111
1112
1113
1114
Mr. Perceval
objected to the form recommended by the right hon. gent., because the motion, as he worded it, was not prospective. He said, he wished to preserve the volunteers undiminished, and yet. there wars no reference to the rumours by which it was apprehended their numbers would be reduced. The right hon gent. ventured to declare, that he disapproved of the measures of ministers on tins subject, and yet it was well known that he had not opposed them in the whole progress of the business. If he could thus compromise his public duty, he should not be surprised, if, on that side the house, his motion was listened to with some jealousy, as calculated to screen his friends, without conducing to any beneficial purpose. In supporting the motion of his hon. friend, he had no particular attachment to the phraseology of that motion, nor any objection to an amendment in any other form of words which the right hon. gent. might think fit to propose, provided they expressed the spirit of the original motion, and had a view to declare the wish of the house, not only to thank the volunteers for their past services, but that those important services might be continued in future. The right hon. gent. however, should rather have called for the concurrence of his friends around him in the amendment he wished to propose, than to the opposite side of the house, who proposed the very motion which the hon. gent. had approved, upon every other ground, except that it was now necessary to express thanks to the volunteers. The right hon. gent. had been pleased to say, that his right hon. friend had never used any expression intentionally injurious or degrading to the volunteers, but that his words had been misrepresented or exaggerated, with a view to prejudice him in the public opinion. He himself, however, recollected that right hon. gent.'s expression, when a former vote of thanks was proposed to the volunteers; and when he warned the house against premature approbation to that body, whom they had not yet seen acting in a tune of general election or general scarcity : and he should be glad to know if such language was not calculated to create a degrading diffidence in their loyalty, and to excite their disgust.
1115
Mr. Sheridan
rose to explain; and complained that he had been misrepresented and very unfairly treated by the hon. and learned gent., who had thought proper to charge him with having neglected his duty, in not attending that house during the discussions which had taken place upon the various parts of his right hon. friend's military plan, to join with those who opposed them; and with compromising that duty, now, by moving an amendment of a suspicious nature. He begged to remind the house, that he had fairly avowed his reasons for absenting himself from the discussions which took place upon the several plans of his right hon. friend; and would tell the hon. and learned gent. that he was not to be schooled by him, as to what times he should think proper to attend, or to be absent from that house. he had fairly acknowledged that he was at variance with the opinions of his right hon. friend upon the whole of his military arrangements, but he begged at the same time to observe, that he did not consider those plans merely as belonging to his right hon. friend, but as adopted by the whole of his majesty's cabinet; and whatever might be the expectation of the hon. and learned gent., that he should come down to the house, and join him and his coadjutors, in opposition to his own friends and colleagues, he had only to say, that though he should ever maintain
1116
Lord Howick
said, that though his original intention was to support the previous question, yet, in consequence of the speech of his right hon. friend, he was in some suspense whether he should not change his first opinion, and vote for the amendment he suggested, with a view, if possible, to conciliate the unanimity of the house, so desirable on the present occasion but, from the temper and disposition displayed in the speech of the hon. and learned gent. and the determination evinced by him, notwithstanding his specious professions, to resist all amendments of a conciliatory nature, and to persist in the original motion, he was now decided in his first opinion for the previous question; not from any opinion whatever that the volunteers were not entitled to the highest approbation and gratitude of parliament, and of their country, but that no occasion whatever had occurred since the thanks of parliament were last voted to them, to render any renewal of that vote at present necessary; and if any member was to propose a similar vote of thanks to the army or the navy, (the merits and importance of whose services could not be denied) without the concurrence of some particular occasion, he should conceive it a violation of his duty not to oppose such a motion by the previous question. He hoped, however, that his right hon. friend, who proposed to mediate in the present case by a conciliatory motion, for the purpose of obtaining unanimity, would take a lesson for the future from the speech of the learned gent. that would teach him how little was to be expected from conciliation or compromise in that quarter. He vindicated the conduct of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) relative to the volunteers, as well as his plans for the new modification of the services of this body; but did not mean to follow the example of gentlemen on the opposite side of the house, by going into a general debate upon all the other military topics which had been so repeatedly, and he had almost
1117
Mr. Canning
supported the original motion, and agreed with his hon. friend (Mr, Perceval) in objecting to the motion proposed by Mr. Sheridan, because it we merely retrospective, and had no view to future services; it was not a preface but postscript, not an exhortation but an epitaph. He went over much of the ground upon which the previous question had beer previously opposed, and contended, the coming from the quarter it did, and supported by the same right hon. gent, whose
1118
Mr. Secretary Windham
replied, and positively denied any such wish or intention as the discontinuance of the volunteers; his wishes and intentions were the direct contrary way; notwithstanding the artful attempts of his opponents to affix such designs on him. In answer to what had been said relative to drill-serjeants, he observed, that the very clause which reduced their pay, gave them the option of retiring if they chose.
Mr. Whitbread
adverted to a tight hon. gent.'s (Mr. Canning) observation, that we ought to thank the volunteers now, because we had further need of their services, but that the reason of other military bodies not having received the thanks of parliament last war was because we had done with them. This was a sort of gratitude which he hoped he (Mr. W.) should never be induced to hold out to those who, in the most spirited and most patriotic manner, stood forward in defence of their country. The right hon. gent. had made some allusion to an epitaph, but the house would perceive that it was when a man was dead that we generally thought the fittest time to write epitaphs and praise him. He would be most willing to return thanks to the volunteers if there was an end of their services.
Lord Castlereagh
said a few words in support of the original motion; and upon a division, the numbers were :—For the previous question, 75; for the original, motion, 41; majority against the original motion, 34.—The original motion was then withdrawn.
Mr. Sheridan
then observed, that suspicion and jealousy had, from whatever causes whether from misconception or misrepresentation, of late appeared among the vo-
1119
Lord Howick
then said, that, however painful it might be to his feelings, thinking so highly as he did of the zeal and patriotism of the volunteers, yet when he considered the nature of the debate that had taken place that night, and the diversity of opinions that had been manifested, he felt himself called upon to move the previous question.
Mr. Canning
observed, that though the present motion fell short of what he had wished; yet having failed in his first object, this motion should have his cordial support.
Mr. Hiley Addington
said, that no man was a warmer friend to the volunteers than he was; but he could not see any present call for such a measure. It was a possible event that peace was at no great distance, when it would be much better to pass a vote of thanks to the volunteers when their services were finished, then it would be to anticipate such a vote at present.
Lord H. Petty
supported the amendment, and concluded with observing, that he trusted that a time would come, when a motion for thanks would be proposed that was not dictated by party motives, or the fancy of individuals.
Mr. Perceval
expressed his astonishment that the noble lord should ascribe a motion to party motives, that was proposed by a distinguished member of the administration to which he belonged, and that had been seconded by an honourable secretary. He would therefore leave it to these gentlemen to determine which were influenced by party motives. Those gentlemen who had formerly supported a vote of thanks, were equally bound to do so now.
Mr. Vansittart
said, that, having formerly concurred in a vote of this nature, he felt it impossible to refuse concurring with it now. A division then took place, and there
1120
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, July 14.
[MINUTES.]
On the second reading of the bill for more effectually partitioning lands in Ireland subject to ascertaining rights of common, lord Redesdale made several observations, for the purpose of proving, from the nature and provisions of the bill, that it ought not to be further entertained by the house, and concluded by moving, that the bill be rejected. The motion was supported by lord Eldon and the lord Chancellor, and agreed to.—The Usher of the Black Rod having appeared at the bar, and informed the house that the commons were ready for a conference in the Painted Chamber, a committee of conference was appointed, consisting of the earl of Westmeath, the earl of Limerick, lord Carleton, the bishop of Winchester, the bishop of Ossory, lord Redesdale, and lord Arden, who went forth to the Painted Chamber. On their return, the earl of Westmeath reported to the house, that they had received from Mr. Bankes, on the part of the committee of commons, a paper which his lordship read, containing a resolution of the commons (relative to a former resolution of their lordships, communicated to the commons, respecting the examination of lord Teignmouth) referring to the precedent of the examination of the earl of Balcarras before the house, who, not being a peer of parliament, was ordered to attend the house, whilst, on the same occasion, earl Cornwallis, being a peer of. parliament, was requested to attend by a message to the house of lords; also stating that lord Teignmouth, not being a peer of parliament, or having a place or seat in the house of lords, was, in the same manner as the earl of Balcarras, ordered to attend the commons to be examined; and, finally, declaring that the commons conceived it their undoubted right to order the attendance before that house, to be examined touching any matter before the house, of any peer, not being a peer of parliament, or having a place or seat in the house of lords. The earl of Limerick observed, that this resolution contained matter of the highest importance to the peerage of the United Kingdom, and he therefore trusted their lordships would take it into their consideration
1121
[MASTERS IN CHANCERY BILL.]
The first reading of the Masters in Chancery bill was moved by lord Eldon.
The Lord Chancellor
expressed his warm approbation of the bill, the object of which was to make an adequate provision for several persons of eminent ability and enlightened minds, to whom the country were every day essentially indebted, for the able and upright discharge of the duties of their offices. The country were also indebted to his noble and learned friend (lord Eldon), for the choice he had made of many of those who now filled the office of masters in chancery; a choice the more pleasing to his noble and learned friend, as those whom he appointed, while they possessed in an eminent degree every qualification that could fit them for their offices, were, at the same time, his private friends. He rejoiced that such a bill had come up to that house, with respect to which it was important also to observe, that it would not be a taxation upon the public, and that not one individual in the country would have any additional burthen thrown upon him in consequence of the passing of this bill.—The bill was ordered to be printed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, July 14.
[MINUTES.]
The members appointed to manage the conference with the lords, relative to the application for the examination of lord Teignmouth, consisting of all those in the house at the time, proceeded to the conference. On their return, Mr. Bankes informed the house, that the members appointed to manage the conference on the part of the commons had attended, and had met lord Westmeath on the part of the lords, to whom they had imparted the answer of the house to the lords' message, and had left with him a copy of it.
[RESOLUTIONS RELATING TO PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.] Mr. Huskisson
rose, pursuant to the notice he had given on a former day, to bring forward his promised resolutions, for the purpose of establishing a plan for simplifying and rendering more definite the annual accounts laid before parliament, of the receipts and issues of the treasury for public purposes within the year. After expatiating upon the want of regularity, clear-
1122
for
within
l
1123
Lord Henry Petty
acknowledged that the hon. gent. had submitted to him the several resolutions contained in his plan, previously to his proposing them to the house; and they certainly had his approbation, because he conceived that a plan having for its object to make the accounts as clear and as intelligible to the house, and to the country at large, as possible, was extremely desirable; for which, the mode proposed by the hon. gent. seemed to him well calculated; and he should be glad to avail himself of the hon. gent.'s suggestions for carrying it into effect. Seeing no manner of objection at present to the adoption of this resolution, it should certainly have his concurrence.—The resolution was then put and carried.
Mr. Huskisson
then moved—2. "That whatever sum shall remain in the receipt of the exchequer on the said 5th of Jan. 1808, being part of the grants for the service of the year 1807, and also the balances in the hands of the Treasurer of the navy, the paymaster of the forces, and the treasurer of the ordnance, being also part of the said grants, respectively, be considered as a surplus of the grants of the said year, applicable to the service of the year 1808, and so on for each succeeding year." 3. That it should, nevertheless, be in the power of the lords commissioners of the treasury, to direct all such balances, either remaining in the exchequer, or in the hands of the treasurers and paymaster aforesaid, to be used and applied, at any time subsequent to the said 5th of Jan. of the year 1808, or of any succeeding year, in continuance of the services for which they were originally granted, without any further vote of this house." 4. "That an account of all such balances,. as aforesaid, be laid before this house within 30 days after the opening of any session of parliament which may take place subsequent to the 5th of Jan. 1808, or of any succeeding year, and within 30 days after such 5th day of Jan. in case the session should be opened prior to that clay." 5. "That the amount of all such balances, stated in the said account,
1124
Mr. Baker
rose to oppose the proposition, which he considered as a striking innovation, introduced at the close of a session of parliament, without any formality or mature consideration that should have accompanied proposal, which, if he understood the hon. gent. must go to trench very materially upon a constitutional privilege of the house of commons, and materially abridge that wholesome check which it held upon the crown, namely, the privilege of voting or withholding the supplies annually. We had been, he said, heretofore frightened at the apprehensions of a standing army; but now we had got that standing army. That it might be rendered necessary by the circumstances of the times, he would not now dispute. But here was a proposal in which the house was called upon, at a moments warning, to vote those taxes in perpetuity, which hitherto had been voted only annually. To such a proposition he should decidedly say Nay, unless it was much more fully and satisfactorily explained to him.
Lord H. Petty
thought that as the motion had been objected to, the best method would be to give more time; and he suggested the propriety of postponing the consideration.
Mr. Rose
admitted, that the hon. gent. had a right to object to it if he thought proper; but he contended, that it was no dangerous innovation, as it only regulated the mode of the accounts, without adding to their amount.
Mr. Yorke
professed that he did not well understand these resolutions. He suggested whether it would not be right to move the previous question on them, which would leave them on the journals, to be taken into consideration at a more suitable time? He had a distrust of any measure which would take away the checks now in the hands of that house, of making it necessary to assemble parliament, after a reasonable interval, which necessity would not exist, if the taxes were made permanent.
1125
Mr. Bastard
was also a friend to the house keeping in its own hands all its present checks on the power of the crown. Amongst these was that of voting the taxes annually. He did not apprehend any approaching difference between the crown and the parliament; but as such differences had arisen before, they might possibly arise again; for which reason that house should not part with such checks as remained in its hands at present.
Mr. Huskisson
said, it would give the crown no power whatever over the public purse, as the supplies must be voted from year to year.
Mr. Perceval
observed, that all the resolutions were in his opinion unexceptionable, but the present. He wished the house to retain its power over the means by which the money was to flow into the exchequer, as well as over the subsequent appropriation of it. To simplify the making up of the public accounts was undoubtedly a desirable object, but it was a very inferior one when compared with the abandonment of any of the privileges of parliament.
Mr. Huskisson
finding the sense of the house was against him, proposed to withdraw the resolution. He then moved—6. That all demands outstanding, under any of the following heads of service, viz. Treasury, Navy, Army, Ordnance, and Barracks,' and which shall remain unsatisfied on the 5th of Jan. aforesaid, be carried to the charge of the ensuing year; but inasmuch as the amount of these demands may be considered as floating debts from year to year, that provision should be made, in the supply of each year, for the discharge of such part of them only, as, upon the estimates to be laid before the house for these several services, may be stated to be an excess of such floating debt at the commencement, over and above the amount at which it may probably remain at the close of such year; and that the amount of such probable excess (if any) be regularly stated in, and form a part of, the several estimates aforesaid." 7. "That an account of all such floating debts be laid annually before this house, in the same manner, and at the same time, as the account required by the 4th of these resolutions." 8. "That the annual surplus, or growing produce of the consolidated fund of Great Britain (forming part of the ordinary annual revenue), and now granted for one year, terminating on the 5th of April next, in case it should be
1126
Mr. Paull
availed himself of this opportunity to observe, that it was impossible to follow the resolutions as they were read; he suggested the propriety of printing them before they were agreed to, more especially as there was no urgent necessity for their being immediately agreed to by the house.
The Speaker
reminded the hon. gent. that by the constant practice of the house, every resolution was printed. No resolution had the force of law. It was merely a recorded opinion, which the house might subsequently change.
Mr. Baker
hoped the hon. gent. did not mean to originate any bills on these resolutions, during the present session.
Mr. Huskisson
replying that he did not, the resolutions were agreed to.
[FINANCIAL PROPOSITIONS.] Mr. Johnstone
finding that the resolutions of the hon. gent. did not go so far as he had expected, said, he would submit to the house certain Financial Propositions relative to the national debt, &c. similar to those which he had been in the habit of submitting for the last two years. He did this without notice, because it was his intention, immediately after the reading of the first resolution, to move that the debate on it should be adjourned to a future day. The first resolution was then read, and the debate was adjourned to Friday. The following is a copy of the said Propositions:
That the total amount of the Public Funded Debt of Great Britain was, on the 1st Feb. 1803, 567,008,978
l.
l.
l.
1127
l.
l
l
That the total amount of Public Funded Debt created in G. Britain for account of Ireland was, on the 1st Feb. 1803, 22,348,000
l.
l.
l.,
l.
That the total amount of Public Funded Debt created in G. Britain for account of the emperor of Germany was, on the 1st Feb. 1803, 7,502,633
l.
l.
l.
l.
That the amount of the Outstanding Demands unprovided for on the 5th Jan. 1803, exclusive of Unfunded Debt, and of the anticipation of certain duties annually voted, was 592,630
l.
l.
l.
That the unfunded debt, in exchequer bills unprovided for, or charged upon funds which proved insufficient, was, on the 5th Jan. 1803, 9,827,400
l.,
l.
l.
That the total amount of the Public Funded Debt of G. Britain was, on the 1st of Feb. 1806, 640,752,103
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
1128
l.
That the total amount of the Public Funded Debt, created in G. Britain for account of Ireland, was, on the 1st Feb. 1806, 38,398,000
l.
l.,
l.,
l.
l.
That the total amount of Public Funded Debt created in G. Britain for account of the emperor of Germany, was, on the 1st Feb. 1806, 7,502,633
l.
l.
l.,
l.,
That the amount of Outstanding Demands unprovided for on the 5th Jan. 1806, exclusive of unfunded debt, and of the anticipation of certain duties annually voted, was 1,923,890
l.
l.
l.
That on the 5th Jan. 1806, there were 341,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
That the variations in the state of the Public Debt between 5th Jan. 1803, and 5th Jan. 1807, being 4 years of war, may be estimated as follow:
The Public Funded Debt of G. Britain unredeemed, which on the 1st of February, 1803, was 480,572,476
l.
1129
533,584,305
l.
l.
£
The Public Funded Debt created in G. Britain for account of Ireland unredeemed, which on the 1st Feb.1803, was 21,224,585
l.,
l.,
l.
16,765,667
The Long Annuities of G. Britain which on the 1st Feb. 1803, were 1,015,410
l.,
l.
32,048
The Long Annuities created in G. Britain for account of Ireland, which on the 1st Feb. 1803, were 9,791
l.,
l.
81,416
The Unfunded Debt in exchequer bills, which on the 1st of Feb. 1803, was 9,827,400
l.
l.
5,172,600
The Unfunded Debt in navy bills, which on the 1st of Feb. 1803, was 3,105,648
l.,
l.
3,405,940
The Funded Debt created in G. Britain fur account of the emperor of Germany unredeemed, which on the 1st of Feb, 1803, was 7,127,496
l.,
l.,
l.
357,112
The Short Annuities of G. Britain, which on the 1st Feb. 1803, were 539,979
l.,
l.
62,588
The sum applicable to the redemption of debt, which on the 1st Feb. 1803 was, for the debt of G. Britain, 5,834,986
l.
l.
1130
Germany, 47,947
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
2,727,493
That the annual charge on account of the Public Funded Debt of G. Britain, after deducting the charges of management on loans redeemed by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, and the interest and charges of management on stock transferred for the redemption of the land tax, was on the 1st of February, 1803, 23,510,967
l.,
l.
l.
That the sum annually applicable to the reduction of the national debt of G. Britain, in pursuance of the several acts relating thereto, was, for the year 1803, 6,311,626
l.
l.,
That the total net produce of the permanent taxes in the year ending Jan. 5, 1803, amounted to 28,246,681
l.
l.
l.
That the net produce of the war taxes was, in the year ending 5th April, 1804;
£.
Customs and Excise
3,377,442
Property Tax
363,877
3,741,319
5th April, 1805, Customs and Excise
7,868,078
Property Tax
3,919,108
11,781,186
5th April, 1806, Customs and Excise
8,496,550
Property Tax
4,481,958
12,978,508
1131
That the official value of all imports into G. Britain, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1803, was 31,442,318
l.
l.
That the official value of all imports into G. Britain, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, supposing the imports from the East Indies (of which no account has yet been made up) to be the same as in the preceding year, was 29,488,072
l.
l.
That the official value of British manufactures, exported from G. Britain in the year ending the 5th of January, 1803, was 26,993,129
l.
l.
That the official value of British manufactures exported from G. Britain in the year ending the 5th of January, 1806, was 25,003,308
l.
l.
And that the real value of British manufactures, exported in the year ending the 5th of January, 1803, may be estimated at 48,500,683
l.
l.
That the official value of foreign merchandize exported from G. Britain in the year ending 5th Jan. 1803, after deducting the excess arising from the valuation of coffee, was 14,418,837
l.,
l.
That the official value of foreign merchandize exported from G. Britain in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, after deducting the excess arising from the valuation of coffee, was 9,950,508
l.,
l.
That in the year ending 5th Jan. 1803, the number of British vessels entered inwards in G. Britain. was 13,622; their tonnage 1,793,333: and the number of men employed in them 108,669:—That the number of British vessels cleared outward was 13,012; their tonnage 1,625,966; and the number of men employed in them 102,427.
That in the year ending 5th Jan. 1803, the number of Foreign vessels entered inwards in G. Britain, was .3,733; their tonnage 480,241; and the number of men employed in them 27,737:—And that the number of Foreign vessels cleared outwards
1132
That in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, the number of British ships entered inwards in G. Britain, was 11,409; their tonnage 1,494,075; and the number of men employed to navigate them 87,148:—That the number of British ships cleared outwards, was 11,603; their tonnage 1,494,968; and the number of men employed to navigate them 94,388.
That in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, the number of Foreign ships entered inwards in G. Britain, was 4,515; their tonnage 691,703; and the number of men employed in them 34,719;—That the number of Foreign ships cleared outwards, was 3,930; their tonnage 605,641; and the number of men employed in them 30,910.
That the number of British ships built and registered in the several ports of the British empire, in the year
Ending
Number
Tonnage
5 Jan. 1803,
was 1,281
137,508;
5 Jan. 1804,
1,402
135,349;
5 Jan. 1805,
991
95,979;
5 Jan. 1806,
966
89,975:
That the total sum to be raised in G. Britain within the year 1806, may be estimated as follows; viz.
Interest on public funded debt, charges of management, sinking fund, on the 5th Feb. 1806
£.
Interest, charges of management, &c. to be paid between the 5th Feb. 1806, and 5th Jan. 1807, on stock created by loans of the present session, to the amount of 29,880,000
l.,
943,890
Interest for loans to the emperor of Germany
497,528
Civil government of Scotland, pensions on revenue, militia and deserters warrants, bounties for promoting fisheries &c. estimated to be the same as the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
864,330
Charges of collecting and management of the revenue, estimated to be the same as the year ending 5th Jan. 1806
2,257,185
Proportion to be defrayed by G. Britain, of the civil list and other charges on the consoli
1133
dated fund of G. Britain, estimated to be the same as in the year ending 5th Jan. 1806, 15–17ths of 1,827,184
l.
1,612,221
Supplies voted 1806, for G. Britain exclusively
5,030,806
Supplies voted in 1806 for G. Britain and Ireland
43,737,910
Deduct proportion to be defrayed by Ireland, 2–17 ths
5,145,636
38,592,274
43,623,080
Loan for the services of Ireland
2,000,000
Sums to be raised parochially for the maintenance of the poor, estimated to be the same as was required in the year, ending Easter 1803
5,246,506
Making in the whole the sum of
£.83,375,728
[INCREASED PAY TO THE ARMY.]
On the motion of lord H. Petty, the house resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Estimates respecting the Augmentation of Pay to the Army were referred.
The Secretary at War
then rose to move pertain resolutions on this head, which, he trusted, would meet with the unanimous concurrence of the house. The low rate of pay of officers of infantry was a subject on which all must be agreed, that it was a wonder how they had been hitherto able to subsist; the patience with which they had waited for some addition to their pay was so exemplary, as to call for the approbation of the house and of the country. Even the increase, which was now proposed, was not, however, to be considered as an adequate reward for their services. This would require a much larger addition; but the present situation of the country, which called for the utmost economy, admitted that such increase only should take place as was required by absolute necessity; and he was convinced that it would be rather a subject of regret, than of satisfaction, that the proposed addition was so small. The increase, besides, was to be partial only, and not general, and was only to extend to those whose pay was inadequate to their situation. Notwithstanding the nobler claims which officers had to respect, arising from the nature of their professions, and their honourable services,
1134
l.
s.
d.
Sir A. Wellesley
made several observations on the pay of subalterns in the guards, which, he contended, was too small. He thought, also, that the lowest sum on which an ensign could subsist was 5
s.
d.
Mr. Secretary Windham
thought the common opinion incorrect, which went to regulate the pay of officers exactly by subsistence, and to increase the pay of the lower orders, for the purpose of bringing them nearer the higher. All this seemed founded on a false assumption. The consequence of the present system was, that none could enter the army as officers who had not something else besides their mere pay. This was important, in a constitu-
1135
Lord De Blaquiere
observed, that having spent the best part of his life in the army, he had a fellow-feeling for all those who belonged to it, and could not but admire the wonderful addition of 1
s.
d.
l.
l.
The Secretary at War
replied, that, besides his increase of pay, every field-officer was to receive forage for one horse. In answer to what had fallen from an hon. general, with regard to officers of the
1136
Lord Temple
wished to know, what addition was to be made to the pay of militia officers?
The Secretary at War
replied, that the increase was only to extend to subalterns, on the principle that the field-officers must necessarily be men of fortune.
Mr. Windham
observed, that if people could be found to fill the rank of officers, without pay, and actuated by the love of honour and distinction alone, it would be so much the better. But since this was not to be generally expected, they must be influenced by the mixed consideration of pay and honorary distinctions. Now the higher rank of officers in the guards was really one of these considerations, by which men were apt to be influenced.
Mr. Francis
wished to know, whether it was meant to reimburse officers for the expence of the property tax? If this were not done, what the house gave with the one hand, it took away with the other.
Mr. Windham
replied, that this was a subject winch could only have come before the house, with propriety, when that tax was discussed.
Lord Temple
expressed his regret, that his right hon. friend had not found it possible to extend the addition to captains in the militia. Of late, the difficulty of procuring them had been so great, that colonels of the militia had been empowered, by act of parliament, to take captains from half-pay of the line; and many subalterns had also been promoted to that rank, who had not the usual qualification in land; but as no alteration could be made in the present resolutions, there was only one remedy which could be applied, and that was by addressing the crown, that a similar addition might also be extended to them. Unless such an augmentation should take place, he pledged himself to submit a motion to the house on the subject, in the next session of parliament.
Mr. Windham
acknowledged, that there was a certain number of the militia officers, of the description that had been mentioned. But, besides, that they had not passed
1137
Colonel Craufurd
observed, that this difficulty in procuring officers, with the legal qualification, arose from the late great extension of the militia; and when they were diminished, the difficulty would cease.—The resolution was then agreed to.—A 2d resolution, granting a sum of 3829
l.
s.
d.
l.
[MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL.] Mr. Windham
moved the order of the day, for the house to go into a committee on the Militia Officers' Bill.
Sir W. Elford
strongly objected to the present bill, on the ground of its making a distinction between the militia and the army, that was utterly inconsistent with those acts of parliament on which the militia was established. It was founded on the absurd principle, that men of fortune should accept no remuneration for those services which they might perform to the public. But supposing, for a moment, that a gentleman of large fortune, in the county of Norfolk for instance, should be appointed one of the secretaries of state, and that his colleagues should propose to him, that he should perform the duty, without any salary, he had no doubt that the proposition would appear to him very absurd. The militia, he contended, were placed on the same footing with the army, and the officers, without distinction, were equally entitled to the same additional pay that might be thought proper to bestow on those of the regulars. Was it not dangerous to innovate on what had been determined by the wisdom of our ancestors; and what, besides, had given general satisfaction? It was not so much the idea of pay that was to be considered, as the distinction which was now proposed to be made, which, he was convinced, would sow the seeds of discord in the militia.
Mr. Yorke
contended, that this bill might have been brought in, weeks and months ago, when there was a full attendance of members, and particularly of those who were connected with the militia service. On this ground alone, he would oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair. The right hon. gent. had already struck a blow at the
1138
l.
Mr. Bastard
contended, that the present measure was a breach of the faith of parliament, which was pledged when the militia were first raised, that they should be on the same footing, in all respects, with the army. Their services were kept, while they were deprived of those privileges to which they were entitled. The distinction now proposed was odious, and for a pitiful saving, the whole militia service was to be disgusted.
Lord Temple
totally differed from the hon. gent. He could not approve of that wandering manner, with which gentlemen on the other side seemed determined, whatever was the question, to inveigh against expressions said to have been used by his right hon. friend, respecting the volunteers. Those topics were now introduced into every debate. He would, however, leave it to the house, from what side the expressions now came, which had an obvious tendency to irritate the volunteers, and to disgust them? Who were the men who now avoided all conciliating language, and who appeared to wish to diminish both the numbers and the spirit of the volunteers? There was an objection, however, which he had, to the bill, and that was, that it gave to volunteer officers, when called into action, superior advantages to what the officers of the militia would have.
Mr. Bankes
said, that he should himself make no observation, but he would leave it to the house to judge on the manner and tone, with which the noble lord (Temple,)
1139
Mr. Secretary Windham
took a review of the objections that had been urged by different gentlemen, from the temperate and argumentative speech of an hon. baronet, (sir W. Elford,) to the intemperate, unreasonable, uninteresting, and, as he conceived, most unargumentative speech of a right hon. gent. (Mr. Yorke). He differed from the hon. baronet in the whole view of the case. Instead of considering it an innovation on any fundamental principle, it appeared to be one of those mere matters of discretionary regulation, which was always supposed to be completely open to the wisdom of parliament. It had been laid down as the general rule, that the militia were to have the same pay as the army. It should, however, be recollected, that this rule was not founded upon any constitutional principle, but merely as the words of the act of parliament. It was, therefore, to be considered, what were the words of the act, and what the meaning of it. The militia were called out according to law; but, as there before existed no law to determine what provision should be assigned for them, the act of the 42d of the king Stated, that that should be the same as was allowed to the army. The meaning of the act was clearly, that as it was necessary to assign them some provision, the legislature thought that what the army then received was not too much. In assigning them that, for their provision, the legislature never meant to tie up the hands of the sovereign, or prevent his increasing the pay of any other description of his force. If it was contended, that, on account of the words of this act, the king could not now
1140
non sequitur.
Mr. Yorke
in explanation, Said he was ready to apologise to the house, if he had,
1141
Mr. Perceval
thought the arguments of his right hon. friend had been mis-stated. The great objection to the bill which was now presented to the house was, that it was upon a subject of so much importance, that it was not fair to bring it forward at so late a period of the session, when there could be but a very thin attendance of members. It appeared to him, that it. would be very wrong, in point of policy, that such a measure should be brought forward, at a time when the militia were in arms, and embodied. It was, then, no time to disgust men, when we looked to them for services. He might be told, as he was the other night about the volunteer drill serjeants, that they might resign. He doubted, however, even whether those who asserted that proposition could venture to say, that the militia might resign. If, then, it was allowed, that they could not resign, and that the terms under which they entered were, that they should be on the same footing with the army, it would be a violation of faith with them, to place them, now, upon a worse condition than time army. Certainly, no little saving, in point of economy, could compensate for the impolicy of disgusting such a body as the militia, at a time when their services were so necessary.
Mr. Giles
considered, that all the objections which were made to every measure, on account of the lateness of the session, amounted only to this question, Why did not the present ministers bring forward, all at once, all the measures which they meant to introduce in the course of the session; As to the breach of public faith, that was so much spoken of, he begged leave to remind gentlemen, that the militia was not a voluntary, but a compulsory service; and that, if no particular faith was pledged to
1142
Lord De Blaquiere
said, he was decidedly adverse to the bill, as, he thought, it went to disgrace a great military body, and to create an odious distinction between the militia and the regular army.
Mr. O'Hara
was for the bill. He was sure, that both the field officers of the militia and of the volunteers, would cheerfully yield to any deductions, that could tend to give the country a greater disposeable force at the present moment.
Sir W. Lemon
considered that it might be the cause of much discontent, that when the officers of the regulars and militia messed together, the one should say, "We are superior to you; our pay is higher."
Mr. Ellison
said, it had been his misfortune, wishing, as he did, to give his support to the ministers, to feel himself under the necessity of successively objecting to all the measures they had brought forward. The bill, then the subject of debate, he was sure, would give the greatest dissatisfaction to the militia, who, from recent intercourse which he had had with some regiments at the barracks in the neighbourhood of the district from which he was returned, he knew, were led, from the late measures of the right hon. gent., to expect an increase of allowance, and were, at present, anxiously awaiting the promulgation of it. He thought, that economy was not a sufficient consideration for a distinction like that proposed to be made in this case, as the militia were liable to the same duties as the regulars, and had always been found to perform them as well. He should vote for the bill to go into a committee, under the hope, that sufficient would transpire therein, to induce the right hon. gent. to relinquish the bill.
Colonel Craufurd
could not at all agree with the opinion of the hon. baronet. So far from the regular officers being entitled to claim any superiority, on account of this distinction, he thought the superiority, as far as income went, was on the other side; and that the militia field-
1143
Colonel Milford
said, it had always been understood to be the rule, that the militia should have the same advantages as the soldiers of the line.
Mr. Windham
said, he rose for the purpose of withdrawing, for the present, his motion for the speaker leaving the chair; and moved, "That it be an instruction to the said committee, that they have powers to extend the provisions of the said bill to the volunteers and yeomanry corps."—After the gallery had been ordered to be cleared, this was agreed to. The bill then went into a committee. In the first clause, sir W. Elford proposed to leave out the words "officers, or;" upon which a division took place: Ayes, 17; Noes, 38. The bill then went through the committee, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, July 15.
[SLAVE SHIP RESTRICTION BILL.]
On the order of the day being read, for the house resolving itself into a committee on the Slave Ship Restriction Bill,
1144
The Earl of Westmoreland
went over several of the arguments before urged against the bill, which, he contended, would be highly unjust in its operation; and that, by enacting that the ships now employed in the slave trade should be traded by the same owners, great loss of property would frequently ensue to the remaining owners of a vessel, where a part owner died, or became bankrupt, as, in that case, from the change of the property, the ship could not be continued in the trade.
Lord Grenville
contended that, it having been determined by both houses, that the slave trade ought to be abolished as soon as possible, it was a necessary consequence of that measure to bring in the present bill, in order to prevent that superabundant supply of slaves which would, otherwise, be attempted, in the interval, to be poured into the West-India islands; whilst it was, at the same time, an act of justice to the subjects of the country, to prevent them from engaging in a trade to their certain loss. He did not conceive, that any injustice to individuals would result from the present bill; although, in all great measures of policy, it was impossible to prevent some individual hardships arising from their operation.
Lord Eldon
argued that, in the present case, individuals might be exempted from loss of property, without endangering the principle of the bill. He was of opinion that, from the words of the bill, if any part owner of a ship employed in the slave trade died, or became bankrupt, the property being changed, the remaining owners could not continue to trade with the vessel; the property in which would, therefore, become of little or no value, the remaining owners sustain a heavy loss, and the estate of the testator, or the bankrupt, be seriously injured, and thus creditors be unable to obtain their demands.
The Earl of Lauderdale
defended the bill, and maintained, that the persons engaged in the trade had had amply sufficient notice of the intention of the legislature to abolish it, and, therefore, ought not now to complain of injustice. He thought, that the words of the bill which had been objected to ought to remain, as to allow other owners to trade with the present vessels, would only tend to increase the number of claimants for compensation when the legislature, finally, abolished the trade.
Lord Sidmouth
declared himself friendly to the abolition of the trade, provided it
1145
Lord Redesdale
also, expressed himself friendly to the abolition; but thought it had been retarded by the harshness used towards those who carried on the trade. In order to prevent this bill from being a harsh measure upon individuals, he suggested, that those words should be left out, which restricted the employment of the vessels now in the trade to the present owners.
Lord Ellenborough
was of opinion, that the words objected to did not legally bear the interpretation which had been put upon them. He contended that, notwithstanding the death, or bankruptcy, of any of the part owners, the vessels might still be navigated under the old register.—The house then resolved itself into a committee; where some conversation arose upon the different clauses; in the course of which, lord Ellenborough warmly replied to an expression used by the earl of Westmoreland. The latter noble lord moved, to leave out the words "any owner or owners," with a view to prevent the trade from being restricted to the present owners of the vessels employed in it. This was opposed by lord Ellenborough and lord Grenville, on the grounds before stated and supported by lord Eldon. The proposition was negatived. Lord Eldon moved to extend the time limited for taking out licences, for navigating vessels in the trade, from the 1st of August to the 1st of September. This amendment was, also, negatived, as was, likewise, an amendment proposed by the earl of Westmoreland, to limit the duration of the bill to the end of the next session of parliament, instead of 2 years. The bill then passed through the committee, and was reported without amendment.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, July 15.
[PUBLIC HARBOURS BILL.] Sir C. Pole
moved the 2d reading of the Public Harbours bill.
Colonel Wood
did not mean to oppose the 2d reading of this bill; but, as much and valuable private property might be affected by its operation, trusted that care would be taken, in the committee, to provide for the protection of that property. No objection could be felt to the measure, if it was only to extend to the king's harbours of Plymouth, Portsmouth, Sheer-
1146
Sir C. Pole
informed the hon. member, that the bill was to extend to all harbours in the united kingdom, commercial as well as naval. Its object was, purely, to prevent nuisances, .and to preserve the anchorage in the state in which it is at present in each.
Colonel Vereker,
as the bill was to prevent nuisances, suggested to the hon. bart. and to his noble friend (lord H. Petty), the propriety of introducing a clause into it, for removing nuisances in harbours. The harbour of Limerick, the city he represented, and one of the best commercial harbours in the kingdom, was choaked up by rocks, which, by estimate, might be removed at an expence of 2,000
l
Mr. Huskisson
reminded the hon. col., that these rocks were a natural obstruction, not a nuisance in the harbour; and, that the proper mode of originating any grant, for the removal of them, would be, to submit a proposition, to that effect, in a committee of the whole house.
Lord H. Petty
admitted, that the suggestion of his hon. friend was entitled to the consideration of the house, and might be a subject for future discussion. As the object of it, however, was a grant of the public money, no clause, to that effect, could be introduced into the present bill.
Mr. Foster
recommended his hon. friend, not to press his suggestion in this instance; the mention of it, however, had been attended with this good effect, that, by the observations of the noble lord, his hon. friend was directed in what manner his object might be attained next session.—The bill was then read a 2d time.
[PILOT'S BILL.] Lord Temple
moved for leave to bring in a bill, to regulate the business of pilots navigating the British seas. The necessity of such a bill, he said, was become as obvious, as its utility must be important to the commercial interests of these countries, inasmuch as the losses sustained every year, both of property and lives, in consequence of the business of pilotage being frequently undertaken by persons unlicensed, ignorant, and unskilful, loudly called for some such regulations as he intended in the bill. He did not mean to press it through the house at this late. period of the session; but, merely, that it should be read the 1st and 2d time; and go into a committee, for such amendments as should immediately appear necessary;
1147
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
seconded the motion, and only regretted the absence of several members interested in commercial concerns, who, he was sure, if they were present, would heartily approve the measure, and cheerfully join with him, in returning thanks to the noble lord for bringing it forward. It was not merely from the ignorance or unskilfulness of such pilots, that the extensive losses, in property and life, alluded to by the noble lord, annually occurred; but from their combinations, their obstinacy, and their desire of extortion, in refusing to go out for the assistance of vessels in rough weather, or apparent danger, until they had made the most exorbitant stipulations with the mercantile interests in the different ports, for the reward of their services; by which means their assistance was often delayed so long, as to come too late for the salvation of ship or crew. He hoped, therefore, the bill would include some measure of effectual regulation.—The motion was agreed to; and lord Temple presented the bill, which was read the 1st time.
[LORD NELSON'S ANNUITY BILL.] Lord Henry Petty
moved the order of the day, for the house to resolve itself into a committee on this bill; and, upon the question, that the speaker do now leave the chair,
Colonel Wood
rose, he said, with considerable reluctance, to oppose a measure so congenial to the sense which the country entertained of the eminent services of that noble lord, in remuneration of which these annuities were now proposed. But, participating, as he did, most sincerely, in those feelings, he could not, consistently with the principles he entertained, and his sense of duty as an individual member of parliament, assent to so large an appropriation of the public money, in the present arduous circumstances. When he considered that 300,000 or 400,000
l
1148
l
l
l
l
1149
The Speaker
observed, that the hon. colonel's object could only be properly attained in the committee. He then left the chair. Upon the house resolving itself into the committee,
Mr. Rose,
in reply to the statements of the hon. col. (Wood), observed, that the grant now proposed bore no proportion to the allowances made to the duke of Marlborough; for, independently of the 5000
l
l
l
l
l
1150
l
Mr. Francis
rose and said: The public part I have already taken, on the subject of this grant, obliges me to say a few words on the present occasion. It does not appear to me, that the hon. gent. (col. Wood), who objects to the motion, has been convicted of any mistake. With respect to the grants successively made to the duke of Marlborough, you must observe the dates, and not confound the services and the periods. The manor of Woodstock was granted, and the expense of the palace provided for, in consequence of the victory at Blenheim, in August 1704. But, it appears by the journals, that, although his services, in the year 1702, were acknowledged in high terms, and that queen Anne desired nothing but, that the allowance of 5000
l
l
1151
Mr. H. Addington
thought it unnecessary to say any thing as to the merits of lord Nelson, whose character it would be as difficult to exalt by panegyric as to depreciate by calumny. But with respect to the measure before the committee, he observed, that it conveyed a proposition of reward for services of an unparalleled nature, far short indeed of that which was granted to the duke of Marlborough.
Mr. Wilberforce
remarked, that if 5,000
l
Lord Henry Petty
conceived that, if any reference were had to the case of the duke of Marlborough in order to apply that case to the measure before the committee, such application could only serve to suggest a considerable augmentation of the proposed grant. The expence of building Blenheim alone, it appeared, exceeded the amount of the provision contained in this bill. But, independently of this expence, and the other sums alluded to by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose), it was to be recollected that the family of the duke of Marlborough still enjoyed a revenue of 5000
l
l
1152
l
1153
[INDIA BUDGET.] Lord Morpeth
moved the order of the day, for resuming the adjourned debate on the East-India Budget. The house having resolved itself into a committee,
Mr. Grant
said, that after the clear and satisfactory exposition given by the noble lord (Morpeth) of the present state of the Company's affairs, it was not his intention to have entered into much observation upon them; but, as the hon. general (Wellesley) had, on the first night of the debate, brought forward a variety of statements, which, in fact, amounted to another exposé of those affairs, having, for its object, a justification, or, rather, commendation, of the financial management of lord Wellesley, it became his duty to submit to the house the views he entertained of the principal subjects treated of in the hon. general's speech. But, first, it would be necessary for him to advert to some remarks which had fallen, on the preceding night, from another hon. gent. (Mr. Francis). That hon. gent. had said, that the Company's sales were now acknowledged to be productive of loss. Mr. Grant denied, that any such acknowledgment was made by those connected with the Company, or that the statements on the table would support the hon. gentleman's allegations in respect to loss on the sales. The amount of profit on sales ending 1st March, 1805, Mr. Grant observed, was, by the printed account on the table,
No. 25
£1,172,779
And the charges of all kinds were per said account
1,591,319
Leaving an apparent deficiency of
£418,540
But among these charges, were several articles which did not belong to the commerce, and were entirely of a territorial nature, such as political charges on account of the territory
£267,249
Military ditto
112,234
St. Helena charges are stated at
£76,013
But the average of 3 years is only
63,000
13,013
The total of these is
£392,496
Leaving a deficit of only
£25,924
1154
In 9 year, from 1795 to 1803, the average of profits was
£1,397,971
In 5 years, from 1799 to 1803, it was
1,677,517
In 2 years, in 1804 and 1805
1,185,307
Difference short, in the average of the 2 last years, per annum
£492,210
£3,578,590
And, from April 1793, to April 1798, in
2,216,032
Both
£5,794,622
To which if the interest on these sums were added, it would be
2,407,839
Making a total of
£8,202,461
Total amount of supplies of goods, stores, and bullion, to India and China
£43,353,837
Ditto, of payments in England, on account of India and China
5,085,690
£48,439,527
Ditto, of receipts from India and China in goods and bills
£46,973,820
Ditto, of receipts in England, on acct. of India
1,599,586
48,573,406
Balance in favour of India
£133,879
1155
s
s
d
s
d
The total amount of supplies to India and China were
£29,531,583
The total amount of political payments in England, on account of the territory in India, was
3,743,028
Both
£33,274,611
Total amount of receipts from those countries
£33,903,574
Ditto in England, on the account of India
1,599,586
Both
35,503,160
Excess of receipts from India and China, in this peroid
£228,549
In the first period, from 1788–9 to 1792–3, the imports from India and China were proportionably less
£752,008
Payment to government at home, more
500,000
Difference of political charges, more
842,661
£2,094,669
Difference apparent per first account of 15 years
133,879
Total
£222,548
Total supplies to India and China
£25,782;632
Political charges paid in England
2,833,227
Both
£ 28,615,859
Total imports
£23,286,507
Payments received in England
4,762,767
28,079,274
Balance against India
£536,585
To which may be added the balance that appears against India in 1805–6, when the exports to it were very large, and the receipts from it unusually small
1,690,100
Total against India and China, in 8 years, up to 1st Sept. 1805
£2,226,685
The balance as above, in a period of 15 years, from 1788—9 to 1802–3, was in favour of India
£133,879
In the two following years, 1803£4 and 1804£5, the balance was against India
642,840
Apparent balance against India and China in 17 years
£508,961
1156
These statements, produced by the hon. general, made the balance against the commerce, from April 1793, to April 1804
£5,794,622
To which add the balance by Mr. Grant's statements in favour of it, as above
508,961
And the whole difference would be
£6,303,583
The balance of the Stock per Computation, in favour of the Company, over and above all claims
1157
upon them, except by the stockholders for stock, is
£6,181,267
The value of the stock, at the rates at which it is subscribed, is
7,780,000
And this account exhibits, that to pay up the stockholders, a sum would he wanting of
£1,598,733
But, to answer this apparent balance, there are fortifications, buildings, and a variety of articles, comprised under the head of Dead Stock, which stands in the Company's book, (deducting 400,000
l
£9,559,400
Balance in favour
£7,960,667
From which, admit deductions made by government at home, from the Company's claims on it
2,460,000
There will still remain
£5,500,667
On the 30th of April, 1804
£22,536,207
On the 30th of April, 1805
25,715,760
And on the 30th of April, 1806, by computation
28,500,000
1158
£8,074,865
In 1798, when lord Wellesley's government commenced, at
11,032,645
And in 1806, including the arrears above-mentioned for expences in 1805
30,000,000
So that the accumulation of the Debt, during lord Wellesley's government, would be about 19 millions, instead of 16 millions, besides a sum paid off from 1799 to 1805, by bills on England of
2,532,195
In 7 years, from 1791–2 to 1797–8, there had been paid, for interest, on the Indian Debt
£3,688,000
In 7 years, from 1789 to 1804–5, the amount of payments for interest is
9,000,000
Making an increase for the payment of Interest in the last 7 years, of
5,440,000
For Bengal, to
£5,022,000
For Madras
1,000,000
Both making
£6,022,000
1159
In the years 1793–4.
Revenue.
Interest.
Charges.
Net Rev.
£. 8294399
£. 526205
£. 6115146
£. 1612226
In the years 1802–3
13464537
1457377
10940324
869988
In the years 1803–4
13273044
1534758
13518170
1779884
1160
1161
1162
1163
Mr. Alderman. Prinsep rose
in reply to the hon. gent. (Mr. Grant), and observer, that he knew not how fur the speeches and statement of the hon. ex-chairman had tended to dispel the gloomy apprehensions which must have arisen from the result of the candid and perspicuous detail of the. noble lord (Morpeth) on a former night. He knew not how far he might venture to calculate upon the impression he should endeavour to make on the committee, by the totally different view he should take of the magnitude and the causes of the Company's present distress. But he felt it his duty, first to apprise the committee of the nature and extent of the responsibility imposed upon the house and the country, by the act of the 33d of his present majesty, No man, after reading that act, could entertain any other idea than that of direct
1164
all other profits
l
1165
l
The Cash Balances abroad on the 30th of April, 1804, were nearly
£600,000
So that taking these Sums, as they stood, of
2,100,000
2,300,000
600,000
£.5,000,000
The India Imports employed an active capital of five millions.
At this period, there were at home, of goods sold and not paid for
£.1,150,000
Goods in England, unsold, partly China, and partly India produce, £.6,440,000, of which he should charge the India trade with one half
3,220,000
This made India commerce amount to upwards of nine millions.
With regard to the Exports, the amount of the cargoes from England, not arrived at their destination, at the date of the quick stock account, was
3,580,000
Exports paid for, exclusive of Bullion
1,200,000
Silver exported and remaining
820,000
Impress and war allowances on ships out
450,000
Which gave, according to stock, by computation, in the whole
£.6,050,000
1166
l
£.992,200
Dead stock purchased 100 years since, and still remaining in the Company's accounts
£.400,000
l
1167
£.6,181,267
The Company's capital actually cost
7,780,000
So that the balance
£.1,598,733
1168
l
1169
l
l
l
l
l
l
£.2,000,000
483,024
2,089,392
4,000,000
2,655,957
Forming a total of
£.11,228,373
Which, when set against the balance, in favour, in the account before him, of
£.6,181,267
Left a balance against the Company, of
£.5,047,106
l
1170
imperium in imperio,
1171
l
l
l
1172
1173
Lord Castlereagh
was fully aware of the difficulties under which the East-India Company at present laboured. He nevertheless was very far from entertaining in his mind that gloomy view of the Company's affairs which had been drawn by the worthy alderman who had just sat down. On the contrary, he was well convinced that if the Company's affairs were vigorously conducted, it would not be long before they would reach as great a state of prosperity as the most sanguine wishes of any friend to the interests of the Company could reasonably entitle them to expect. For the accomplishment of this great object he would recommend that the general state of the Company's affairs should undergo the most ample investigation before a committee. The result, he was confident, would be highly favourable to the Company. But, at the same time that he was convinced, from his knowledge of the affairs of the Company, that a committee which had it in view to obtain a correct statement of the debts, assets, and revenue of the Company, must necessarily draw inferences favourable to the Company, as he had before stated; still he most clearly saw that something was wanting for the present to be done for the assistance of the Company. To attain this great and most desirable object, he would recommend that a loan should be raised under the sanction of parliament; not that he could by any means suppose that there could be any hesitation or doubt of the solvency of the Company, but that he saw how much more advantageously a loan would be raised under such circumstances, than if the Company itself was to go into the market for that purpose. Before Ireland was united to this country, it was the uniform practice with the English parliament to include the
1174
Dr. Laurence
caught the Speaker's eye, and was entering into a consideration of the subject, when
Mr. Robson
rose to order. He observed, that on so important an occasion, an occasion that required the fullest attendance, not one of his majesty's ministers was present, to guard the purse of the public: and as he observed by the order-book, that little business stood for to-morrow, he should move an adjournments.—The gallery was then cleared, and there being only 31 members present, the house adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, July 16.
[MINUTES.]
The royal assent was given by commission to the Scots Distillery bill, the Vote of Credit bill, the Irish Customs bill, the Irish Prizage bill, the Greenwich Chest bill, the Greenwich Hospital bill, the Portsmouth and Dover Works bill, the Training bill, the Militia Ballot bill, and the Irish Road bill. The commissioners were the lord Chancellor, earl Spencer, and lord Walsingham. The Slave Ship Restriction bill, the Irish School Commissioners bill, and the Nabob of Arcot Creditors bill were read a third time and passed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, July 16.
[MINUTES.]
The Land Tax Redemption Amendment bill, the Warehousing Goods bill, the Woods and Forests Surveyors' bill, the Windsor Forest bill, this Irish Hops Importation bill, the Grenada Loan bill, the Lottery bill, and the Stage Coach bill, were read a third time and passed. Upon the latter, sir John Sinclair took occasion to observe, that the provisions of this bill did not appear to go far enough to satisfy the wishes of the public. But yet it formed an additional arrangement to those already existing, which he hoped would operate to diminish the evils com-
1175
[Mr. PITT'S DEBTS.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee upon the Consolidated Fund bill, Mr. Vansittart moved a clause of appropriation.
Lord Folkestone
observed upon that part of the account in which it appeared that 41 010
l
l
Mr. Vansittart
remarked upon the insignificant amount of the difference alluded to by the noble lord. and stated, that this difference might be considered the result of the order, that no deduction for fees should be made upon the sum originally granted.
Lord Folkestone
said, that to overlook such a difference would be to establish a precedent, tending to justify the minister in exceeding the grant of that house, in applying a sum of the public money beyond that which parliament or that house might authorize. The noble lord also noticed some incorrectness in casting up the accounts upon which this bill was founded.
Mr. Vasittart
referred the noble lord to the journals, in which he would find a similar difference to that of which he now complained, and that in the case of the illustrious Chatham; which difference was afterwards sanctioned by the house of commons.—The resolutions were then agreed to, and the report was ordered to be brought up to-morrow.
[BARRACK ABUSES.] Mr. Robson
rose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of the house to the accounts on the table, with respect to the expenditure of the public money in the barrack department. In times like the present, when the national expenditure was no less than one million and a half weekly; when the national burthens were rapidly increasing, and likely to increase still farther, he did not think it necessary to make any apology to the house for attempting to occupy its attention upon the subject of the flagrant abuses, which, he had no doubt of being able to shew, ex-
1176
1177
l
1178
Lord H. Petty
said, that when he first interfered in this business, in putting the previous question on the hon. gent.'s motion, it was because he was convinced, that very considerable abuses prevailed in the barrack department; and the only objection he then had to the motion of the hon. member was, that a military board was now sitting, especially appointed by parliament, for waking an enquiry into this very department. From this committee, a report was expected to be received, he believed, to-morrow; and were he in the place of the hon. gent., he should defer his motion till he had seen that report. If, however, the hon. gent. thought fit to persist in his motion, he should certainly make no objection to it.
The Secretary at War
wished to know of the hon. gent. whether he meant to ground any enquiry on the papers he had moved. for? As he thought it not quite candid to move for voluminous papers, in which the characters of individuals were implicated, which papers went abroad, and those characters became injured, without having any opportunity allowed of defending themselves; he thought, that as there was a board of commissioners now sitting, which was expressly appointed by parliament, for investigating the accounts of the barrack department, the house should not sutler any other enquiry to be entered upon, till that commission was closed, without repealing the act by which it was constituted.
Mr. Robson
said, the right hon. gent. who just sat down, must surely have forgotten what passed about 3 weeks ago, when he was asked by that right hon. gent. himself, whether he meant to go on with the barrack enquiry? He said, he thought the business had been taken out of his
1179
Mr. Martin
said, he wished to see an enquiry instituted in that house, rather that by commissioners; because the latter, from the slow progress they made, seemed to look on the people of England as able to bear peculation, in the same way as cooks did the skinning of eels; because they were so well used to it, they felt nothing from it.
The Secretary at War
wished to know what farther measure the hon. gent. meant to ground on his present motion.
Mr. Paull
then made some observations with regard to a Mr. Atkins, the late barrack-master, who had been dismissed. He stated him to have been formerly an honourable character, and recommended by Sir R. Abercromby to the situation which
1180
l
l
Mr. Canning
observed, that it had been asserted for a fact, that this Atkins was dismissed on the affidavit of a man who had suffered by Atkins' giving information of his peculations. He had no reason to suppose that the dismissal was not right, but he could wish that the matter should be stated to the satisfaction of the house.
The Secretary at War
denied that the barrack-master had been dismissed on account of any information he had given, but merely because there were inaccuracies in his accounts.
Mr. Paull
considered it very extraordinary, that this man, who appeared now to be the most improper of all persons, should be so long continued in a situation of trust and confidence, that none but an honest should be placed in.
Mr. Secretaty Windham
said, that he knew nothing of this barrack-master when he was first appointed, and had only heard that he was an officer somewhat distressed, and that there was nothing then said against his character. It was not surprising that the discovery should have been made in the manner it was; for the fact was, that there was so little public spirit generally going, that it usually proceeded from the irritation of sonic private quarrel, that transactions of this sort came to light. He did not see how parliament could take the business into its own hands, or do more than generally recommend it to the commissioners to enquire diligently into abuses of this nature. If these commissioners did not do their duty, other commissioners should be appointed; but he did not see how that house could examine into every separate abuse that might be complained of.
Mr. Bastard
thought it was the duty of the house to look diligently into abuses, when they were stated, and, as guardians of
1181
l
The Secretary at War
observed, that the dismissal of any barrack-master was only done upon the report of the barrack-master-general.
Mr. Robson
then said, that he never thought the right hon. secretary at war capable of discharging Mr. Atkins upon any improper ground, for it was not in his nature; nor did he intend introducing the name of that gentleman into the debate, as his enquiries had proceeded a great way before lie ever heard of him. As it was thought right to ask him, what his objects were in this motion? he would honestly answer, first, that he meant to save the money of the public; and, secondly, that he might save to the amount of 500,000
l
1182
l
l
Mr. Paull
seconded the motion; and was proceeding to remark upon some misrepresentation of what he said before; when
1183
Mr. Windham
reminded the house, that such a course was disorderly.
The Speaker
said, that it was certainly irregular, in seconding a motion, to go into the subject of a preceding one.
Mr. Paull
thought himself entitled to explain a circumstance on which he had been misrepresented.
The Speaker
repeated, that he was proceeding in a disorderly manner; and if he wished to correct a misrepresentation, the fit mode would be to take another occasion of doing so.
The Secretary at War
supposing himself to be alluded to, wished, that if the orders of the house admitted it, the hon. gent. might be allowed to afford the explanation he wished for.
Mr. Paull
said, that if he was not allowed to explain, he must withdraw his seconding the motion. He thought, that in seconding a motion, he was entitled to give his reasons for doing so.
Mr. Rose
said, he never knew that the canteens were made private property, but were always accounted for to government.
Mr. Robson
replied, that though some of these canteens produced a rent of 1500
l
Mr. Robson
next observed, that the subject of his next motion was of great importance to the public interest, as he would, if permitted, prove at their bar, that the rent of the canteens, and the sale of manure alone, would, if properly accounted for, defray the whole of the rents paid for the barracks. Sonic parts of the information which he had received, were almost too bad to mention to the house. Amongst the abuses in that department, he would state, that a Mrs. Parker, who, it seemed, was a favoured friend of major Lewis, had hired a house of a tailor for 30
l
l
1184
[MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL.] Mr. Secretary Windham
moved the third reading of the Militia Officers' bill.
Mr. Perceval
observed, that the reason why he had given notice, the preceding day, of his intention to take the sense of the house on the third reacting that day, was, with a view to have a fuller attendance; the material objection to the bill, which he had before stated, was the lateness of the period to which it was brought. Considering that the militia had till now been on the same footing, as to pay, with the army; that most of the militia officers were now absent on other duties; that none of those who remained had voted with ministers on this question, while several voted against them; and that two servants of the public, the one paymaster of the forces (lord Temple) and the other a person belonging to the ordnance, both officers of the militia, had opposed the bill, he thought the house ought to pause before it assented to it. He was sorry that he did not see those persons now present. But still he must give as much opposition to this impolitic measure as he could. He had already stated the inexpediency of bringing forward such a measure at this late period of the session. The only argument which was urged for departing from the established system, was, the point of economy, which, in this instance, was quite paltry; and setting the lateness of the period out of the question, it was not such as to make it worth while, on this account, to run the risk of giving dissatisfaction to the militia officers. But when we were at war, and in possession of the services of these men, it was impolitic to give them dissatisfaction; and we had it from the militia officers themselves, that this increase would do so, not on account of being refused the additional pay, but on account of the invidious distinction made between them and the line. He thought the objection of an hon. colonel (Bastard) very strong, when he stated that injustice was done to the militia; for when they entered, they might, as the law stood, take it for granted, that they should always be kept on a footing with the line, and might, in justice, now claim their discharge. When the prize-money was taken from the seamen, it was said, they had no right upon this to claim their discharge, as they had been pressed. He (did not think that the engagements even
1185
Lord Folkestone,
though he supposed it would be a material objection to the gentlemen on the other side, that he was not a militia officer, must still assert his opinion on the subject. He maintained, that there was no reason whatever for any dissatisfaction on the part of the militia officers, for they suffered no injustice. The field-officers and captains were, by law, required to have certain qualifications, which rendered this additional pay unnecessary. Besides, they could not reasonably expect to be put exactly on a footing with officers of the line, who gained rank through toils and dangers, while they immediately attained their rank, on account of their property. The old mistaken principle had been departed from already; and, besides, it was a quite different service. He would, therefore, support the bill.
Mr. Secretary Windham
said, he was not sorry that the gentlemen on the other side had taken an opportunity of renewing this discussion, as he felt convinced, that the more the subject was discussed, the more it would be generally approved of. The lateness of the session was, to be sure, an argument that told well in so thin a house; but it should be recollected, that this was not a substantive argument, and there
1186
1187
Mr. C. Wynne
observed, that the principal argument on the other side of the house, that the militia officers were injured by the arrangement prescribed in this bill, was a total mistatement, and a complete inversion of the fact: for how could the militia officers, who suffered no diminution of pay, be injured by a small increase of pay to the officers of the line? They, in fact, would sustain no injury whatever, and he was confident, would feel none, notwithstanding the arguments of gentlemen, who assumed to advocate their cause; but whose arguments reminded him of a petition of the celebrated lord Chesterfield to his majesty for a pension, professing, "that it was purely for the honour of it, and not for any pecuniary consideration."—The question being now loudly called for, on the third reading of the bill, the house divided; Ayes, 35; Noes 24; Majority for the bill, 11.
[INDIA BUDGET.] Lord Morpeth
rose and moved to postpone, till Friday, the further consideration of the India Budget.
Mr. Robson
felt it his duty to call the attention of the house to this most important subject; and to express his astonishment, that affairs of such vital importance to this country, as those of India, were to be discussed in such thin houses as this business had hitherto been. Whether the India Company were to be continued by a renewal of their charter, or not, their affairs ought not to be treated with so much levity, with so thin an attendance of members, and, more especially, without the attendance of his majesty's ministers. Their affairs, as he was taught to understand, were in a most embarrassed and deplorable situation, almost, indeed, upon the brink of ruin. It was declared in that house, that a loan, to an inconceivable amount, would be requisite to support them; but, whether this was to be a loan of 7 millions, or 17 millions, or what not, he thought the subject was one of too much importance to be discussed in that house, without a full attend-
1188
Lord Morpeth
wished to know, upon what authority the hon. gent. stated, that a loan would be wanted for the India Company? He certainly had made no such statement, in bringing forward the Company's affairs: nor did he hear any such thing mentioned by any of his majesty's ministers in that house.
Mr. Grant
also disclaimed, on the part of the Company, the representation of their affairs made by the hon. gent., and which he could not suffer to pass uncontradicted. He knew nothing of any loan proposed or desired by the Company: they stood not in need of such assistance; nor did he hear any thing of any such proposition, with which their authority or wishes were connected: a noble lord, indeed, near him (Castlereagh), in his speech, the preceding night, had thrown out a suggestion, that a loan of 5 millions might be desirable for the accommodation of the Company; but this was a mere suggestion in the course of a speech, wholly unauthorised by the Company.
Mr. Paull
defended the conduct, and approved the determination, expressed by his hon. friend (Mr. Robson); and hoped, he would persist in his endeavours to obtain a full attendance of members upon every discussion on India affairs: for, notwithstanding the declaration just made by the hon. ex-director, it certainly had gone forth, that the Company's affairs were in a desperate situation. It had been said, not by himself, but by a worthy alderman opposite to him (Prinsep), that they were in a state of bankruptcy; and, although the noble lord's suggestion of a loan, in his speech, the preceding night, might not be admitted by the hon. ex-director, as an official authority upon the point, yet his hon. friend had a right to consider such a declaration, coming from the noble lord, as good authority upon a subject, namely, the situation of the Company's affairs, in which the noble lord's own character and safety were so deeply interested: for it was no secret, that the noble lord's conduct in those affairs was likely to become the ground of very serious charges from an
1189
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, July 17.
[AMERICAN INTERCOURSE BILL.]
On the order of the day for the 3d reading of this bill,
Lord Hawkesbury
rose. His lordship deprecated any departure from those principles on which our navigation laws were founded, and to which we were indebted for our maritime superiority, and our greatness as a nation. He did not mean to contend that there might not be cases in which, from necessity, the general principle of our navigation laws must be departed from; but the present was not such a case; and, if an investigation was allowed to take place, he pledged himself to bring forward merchants of the highest respectability, who would declare, that such a measure as the present was wholly unnecessary. He objected, that this bill was brought forward, and all investigation refused. He thought also, that the measure was rendered worse, by enacting it for an indefinite period; it would be, in his mind, much better, to limit the period of its duration to the 1st of July, 1807, as, in the mean time, an investigation of this important subject might take place, and parliament become acquainted with the real state of the question.
Lord Holland
contended that nothing more was meant by this bill than to vest that power in the privy-council, which had heretofore been exercised, contrary to law, by the governors of our West-India islands. That the power of allowing our West-India islands to be supplied from America, should be lodged somewhere, was demonstrable from the fatal effects which a contrary policy, that of restricting our colonies to a supply from this country had produced in those islands, when resorted to soon after the termination of the American war. This power, he contended, could no where be better lodged than in the hands of his majesty's privy-council, who were responsible for the exercise of it, and who were more likely to be influenced here by British interests, than the governors in the West Indies, who, from their situation, were necessarily subject to be operated upon by local influence. He was astonished at the opposition this measure met with in all its stages, particularly from those who had
1190
Lord Eldon
maintained, that there was a material difference between indemnifying the governors in the West Indies for those acts, and passing an act of parliament to legalize the principle. The great object of our navigation laws, was to preserve our maritime superiority, and they should not lightly be departed from, as it should be remembered that when our shipping and mariners were decreased, those of other nations would be increased; and that if, in the event of a peace, there was not employment in our mercantile shipping for the numerous seamen who would be discharged, many of them might enter into foreign service.
Earl Spencer
defended the bill, which, he contended,had nothing to do with the general principles urged on the other side, it being only to give a power to the privy-council, to allow the importation of certain articles from America to our West-India islands, in case of necessity; and, in order to prevent any ill effects arising from the precarious nature of a supply, restricted wholly to this country. It did not, however, prevent supplies from being sent from hence in British shipping.
Lord Hawkesbury
moved an amendment to limit the duration of the bill to the 1st of July, 1807.
The Earl of Lauderdale
thought the amendment extremely inconsistent with the arguments urged on the other side. After some further observations from lord Eldon and lord Holland, the amendment was negatived, and the bill read a 3d time, and passed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, July 18.
[BARRACK Anuses.] The Secretary at War
rose to move for some papers in the barrack department, in order to disprove the assertions made by an hon. member (Mr. Robson) the evening before last. He accordingly moved for an account of the disposal of the sums received by the barrack-master-general for rent of canteens, at the several temporary barracks, and also for manure sold therefrom since 1793.
Mr. Robson
thought it most extraordinary, that it happened of late, that the papers which his majesty's ministers oppo-
1191
The Speaker
informed the hon. gent. that the report had been ordered to be printed, and it was not customary, when such an order was made, to interpose any delay, without a special order of the house.
Lord H. Petty
hoped the hon. member would have no objection to signify the nature and object of his motion for Monday.
Mr. Robson
answered, that, as lie never wished to bring forward any matter of this nature without being grounded on statements made to him upon affidavit, he was not yet prepared to explain particulars. His object, however, was to detect and expose a system of the most flagitious peculation, still going on in the barrack department.
The Secretary at War
laid on the table some copies of affidavits produced at the war-office, in vindication of the conduct of Mr. Atkins, late barrack-master of Sandown, in the Isle of Wight, pursuant to an order made on Mr. Robson's motion on Wednesday.
Mr. Paull
hoped those papers would be printed for the perusal of the members, in order to vindicate the conduct and the honour of a much-injured gentleman, of whom though he knew nothing personally, yet he knew his character; that he was a gallant officer, and had served, with high distinction, in the West Indies last war; that he had received his appointment as barrack-master at the Isle of Wight, in consequence of a very high recommenda-
1192
Mr. Robson
thought it extremely severe and unjust to have punished Mr. Atkins upon the affidavit which was alleged as the ground of his dismissal, without hearing him in his defence, and when there were three other affidavits in direct contradiction to that upon which he was dismissed.—The papers were ordered to be printed.
[FINANCIAL PROPOSITIONS.] Mr. Johnstone
moved the order of the day for resuming the debate upon the subject of his Financial Propositions; which order being read, the hon. gent. observed, that the resolutions which he had to move upon this subject differed so little front the state of the public debt, as laid down by the noble chancellor of the exchequer, and agreed so closely with his statements in all the general results, that it was hardly worth troubling the house by going into a minute detail on
1193
Lord H. Petty
felt it unnecessary to say any thing on the subject of the general resolutions of the hon. gent., as they so nearly accorded with the statement he had himself made; and, with respect to the accumulation of the public debt, in consequence of the exceedings of the war expenses beyond what was originally conjectured, he had only to say, that it must have been impossible to state inure than mere conjecture, as to what might be the probable expenses of a war, in the outset of which the possible chances and events, and, consequently, the true expense at which it must he impossible for human foresight to calculate upon any scale of accuracy: added to this, however accurate such calculations might be, they must be founded upon the rate of things as they stood at the time; but, every one must know, that the extraordinary and unexpected rise upon every necessary of life, and almost every article of supply, since
1194
Dr. Laurence
made a few observations the same effect; and said, the objections of the hon. gent. would be best answered by the reply quoted in a classic author, upon a similar occasion, "that war was a devouring animal, and would be restrained by no prescribed regimen." —The first six resolutions were then agreed to, and the debate on the Resolution respecting the the Unfunded Debt was adjourned to Monday.
[INDIA BUDGET.]
On the motion of lord Morpeth, the house, in a committee, resumed the debate on the India Budget.
Mr. T. Jones
asked, if there had been an adjustment of the sum of 2,672,440l. thus described, and in a paper moved for by him in 1801: "By what due from government for stores and supplies for his maesty's troops, &c. &c."
Lord Morpeth
replied, that this account, blended with another, amounting to nearly 4 millions, was in a way of settlement, and some part of it had been allowed.
Mr. T. Jones
then asked, how much of the 500,000l. per annum, as settled by the charter bill of 1793, had been paid by the Company to the public.
Dr. Laurence
spoke to order. He thought it contrary to the rules of the house, that, when the question for their determination was only respecting a single year, any member should think himself at liberty to ask all manner of questions. When the debate was disposed of, he certainly might find opportunities enough of asking the noble lord any questions he might think proper.
Mr. Hobhouse
(the chairman of the committee) considered that it was the custom upon India budgets, for the member who brought them forward, to take a very wide range into the general situation of the affairs of India, preparatory to moving his first resolution; and that, therefore, it was allowed to other members, to take a considerable latitude in speaking upon that question. As to the right of asking questions, he believed the rule was this: every member had a right to put questions; but the person to whom they were put, might answer them, or not, as he thought proper.
Mr. T. Jones
said that, if the learned
1195
Dr. Laurence
said, he might take whatever opportunity he pleased; and he need not expect that he would meet him on any of his points.
Mr. Paull
said, that having, last February, found himself under the necessity, from a paramount sense of duty, of calling the attention of the house and the public, to the state of the Finances of India; and, as sentiments, on that important topic, were now before the house, in the form of a specific charge, he would forbear, on the present occasion, from entering fully into the subject; though the hon. general (sir A. Wellesley), and the noble lord (Castlereagh), had given ample room for discussion, by statements the most fallacious eve produced to any reasoning assembly; but, said the hon. gent., to refute such statements is the less necessary, as the noble lord, who brought forward the business had done ample justice to his (Mr. Paull's) sentiments, and had confirmed every assertion he had ever made on the melancholy state of India, rendered still more melancholy and desperate, by the immense sums shortly to be provided for in that unhappy country.—The hon. gent. paid the noble lord (Morpeth) some well-merited compliments, for the honest, honourable, and fair manner, in which he had brought forward the Budget: he had scorned deception; and his candour was as conspicuous as his talents were acknowledged. The noble lord had given the only fair statement that had been exhibited of the Finances of India for upwards of 20 years; and, for the whole of his conduct, he merited the thanks of every man in the kingdom. The noble lord had looked the prospect, dark and gloomy as it was, boldly and fairly in the face; and had scorned to delude the house with promises that were never to be fulfilled, and prospects of prosperity that never were to be realized. But, said Mr. Paull, the noble lord has still, Most unintentionally, omitted some most important items. On his own shewing, including the defalcations in the ceded provinces, the actual deficit, even on san-
1196
1197
Mr. T. Jones
hoped, that he should not be thought pertinacious; but he trusted, he should be allowed to make a few observations, as he stood pledged, in some degree, to the house, on this subject. He had, in 1801, stated, that the debt of the Company was 20 millions. This had now clearly turned out to be the fact. He had then met with a great deal of opprobrium, and was asked to have patience. He had had patience; and the result was, that the Company, as had been stated by an hon. Alderman (Prinsep), was on the eve of bankruptcy; and that their debt was nearer 40 millions than 30. He was, therefore, fully justified in what he had said; and the persons at the India board, whether they were called comptrollers or any thing else, would soon, it appeared, be only the assignees of bankrupts.
Mr. Johnstone
said, that there was no danger of a bankruptcy. He would not enter upon the particulars of the accounts, however, as it was painful to him to look at the situation of the Company. But that situation was still not so gloomy as had been represented by the hon. gent. As to the loans, he hoped the persons who held them would renew their engagements. But he deprecated the transferring them to this country; and warned the directors, not to ask such a thing of parliament, for the minister of the day would be strongly tempted to grasp at a share of the patronage, which would be dangerous to the liberties of this country. He begged the house to consider, what would be the consequence of a patronage over 3,000,000l. sterling, in addition to what was already possessed by the government. Any inconvenience of trade was better than that the minister should acquire such an extraordinary power. He meant this as no particular reflection, but mentioned it as applying to any minister. As to the case of sir G. Barlow, his opinion was unaltered. Even though what the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) had said should be correct, still his observations were proper. Ministers had gratuitously appointed him, on the 26th of February, and removed him 14 days after. Now, why was he appointed at all, if it was in contemplation to remove him so soon? All the powers of governor-general would have remained with him, by devolution, till the appointment of a suc-
1198
Sir A. Wellesley
considered the bon. member (Mr. Paull) was completely wrong, in supposing, that so large a sum as 10 millions was to be due in 1807. He shewed, from a variety of calculations, that the greater part of this sum would not be due until the years 1809 and 1810. If there was a large floating debt at the end of the war, there were, also, floating securities in the hands of the Company, which balanced it. He denied, that the loans in India had been contracted for on such unfavourable terms as the hon. gent. had represented.
Mr. Paull
said, that the reason that the loan appeared to be contracted on better terms in India than it really was, was, because above two-thirds of it was contracted at Lucknow and Benares, where the value of the rupee was considerably less than the Calcutta rupee. The interest of the debt being paid in Calcutta rupees, and the principal contracted in the rupees of Lucknow and Benares, it made the real interest from 12 to 14 per cent., instead of 8. He contended, that the Company actually owed 6 millions to the country, on account of the 12 years arrears of the half million annually; for which consideration their charter was renewed. India had, ever since, been a drain to this country, both in men and money; and not a single advantage had been derived from the possession. He was sure that, at the time the charter was last renewed, no one had the most distant idea, that it would ever be renewed again, except on terms much more advantageous; but, if they could not pay half a million, they could not pay more, and Great Britain would be the only country prohibited from trading to India, and this without any sort of consideration.
Mr. Grant
in general, vindicated the accounts which he had brought forward on the second night, see p. 1153. With respect to the amount of the Indian Debt, he continued of opinion, that considerable arrears of the expences of the two wars, in which we had recently been engaged, remained still to be brought to account. The experience of former wars, carried on upon a less extensive scale, justified this opinion; and he was, upon the whole, persuaded, that it was reasonable to estimate the Debt, on
1199
1200
Mr. T. Jones
said, that his object, in interrogating the noble lord (Morpeth) was, to save his trouble, and that of the house; but, more particularly that of the noble lord, who had given a fair and accurate, however to be lamented, Budget, and was now sitting to hear the third discussion on it, left quite alone, both. by his majesty's ministers, and such directors of the East-India Company as were members of parliament: that, by getting answers to his questions, he should see what alteration, for the better or worse, had taken place since his speech and statement, delivered in that house, June 25, 1802, thereon. But, however, as he did not wish to be pertinacious, as to putting questions, he should state facts: Now, in 1800, up to the 30th of April, the India Debt was 20 millions. Out of the 6,000,000
l
l
l
Mr. H. Martin
commented on the construction of the act by which the Company held their charter; and said, that it clearly appeared from it, that when the Company were in straitened circumstances, the payment was only suspended, and they now were debtors to the public for 6 millions. The only excuse must be, their inability to pay; and he hardly thought that this excuse would be resorted to, as it would amount to a confession, that they had been insolvent ever since the year 1793.
1201
Mr. Hudlestort
rose and said:—Sir, the strictures which an hon. member opposite (Mr. T. Jones) has been pleased to address to me on the conduct of some of my colleagues for their absence from the house on this occasion, it is not difficult to answer. My colleagues, sir, have been occupied to day for 7 or 8 hours by very important public duties in another place. They know also that the statements before the house contain full and accurate information relative to the finances of the East India Company; and they were aware that whatever further explanation might be required, no one is more able to give than my hon. friend, the late chairman, who would, in all probability, he present in his place at this discussion. For my own part, sir, I confess I came down to the house for the purpose of offering some observations on the speech of au hon. alderman (Prinsep) who the other evening entered so largely into the subject of the Company's commerce, and with views so obvious respecting it; and on part of the speech of the noble lord who so ably followed him, and I shall now endeavour to submit those observations to the house. With respect to the facts assumed by the worthy alderman, it is not necessary to dispute them. Without stopping to enquire into their validity, it may be sufficient to examine the structure he would build upon them in a fair comparison with that which he would overthrow. Such an examination, I am confident the hon. alderman can never have made, for, if he had, it would have enabled him to take a more enlarged view of the subject, and convinced him that the view he had before taken of it was narrow and fallacious. Hitherto the hon. alderman seems to have looked at the commerce of the East India Company through a peculiar sort of glass, which has possessed the property of hiding all its great and leading features, and all the benefits which it diffuses. The loss which he supposes the Company to sustain by their trade forms the grand foundation of his argument, to that point therefore I shall immediately direct my attention, by claiming of him what I am sure his candour will readily admit, namely, that the loss is principally, if not entirely, confined to the exports. I shall then remind the worthy alderman, and solicit the attention of the committee, to the momentous fact, that from the provision of those exports many thousands of the community derive their subsistence, and
1202
1203
1204
1205
1206
1207
1208
1209
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
rose to reply. He began with observing, that after the long indulgence with which he had been honoured in a former part of the debate, he felt it his duty to abridge as much as possible, what he had to say further on the subject; and here he must acknowledge his obligation to two hon. members (Mr. Paull and
1210
1211
1212
1213
1214
1215
1216
1217
3,200,000l. at 87½ per cent.
£ 2,800,000
Of which there had been lent to government at 8 per cent. interest
2,000,000
They had also paid for dead stock under lord Godolphin's award
400,000
which made from the first capital a deduction of
2,400,000
So that the active capital amounted only to
400,000
To which a fresh subscription was made in 170l upon 800,000l. at 155 per cent. of
1,240,000
So that the capital was then
1,640,000
But of this sum, there was lent to government the same year
1,200,000
So that the capital then remaining for trade was but
440,000
(At this time interest was reduced to 5 per cent.)
In 1729, a douceur was paid to government of
200,000
Unless therefore the trade had encreased their stock beyond their dividends, the capital was reduced to
240,000
In 1741, they lent however to government, at 3 per cent. without any call on the proprietors
1,000,000
which exceeded the funded subscription afloat
760,000
At this time their loan to government amounted to
4,200,000
In 1750, the interest on this loan was reduced to per cent.
In 1789, a new subscription of one million stock at 174 per cent. added to the Company's resources the sum of
1,740,000
In 1793, the capital becoming more inefficient, 1,000,000l. of stock was added, though not ail subscribed till the year after, and this produced
2,027,295
1218
1219
Mr. Hudlestone
in explanation said, it was impossible for him to imagine where the worthy alderman had gotten the statement which he had made to the committee of the amount or value of the Company's exports to India, or who had furnished it, but that fortunately he (Mr. Hudlestone), happened to have brought with him to the house a document on that head, for the ac-
1220
Lord Castlereagh
said, that the share he had borne, and the interest he must always continue to feel in the administration of India, made him desirous of troubling the committee with such observations as the course of the present debate, and the general state of the Company's affairs at this period, suggested.—It was not necessary that he should detain them upon the detail of the accounts, which were the immediate subject of the committee's consideration. The different results had been very fairly and clearly opened by the noble lord, and so far as the statement related to the actual accounts for the year 1803–4 abroad, and those in estimate for 1804–5, he had the satisfaction of entirely concurring in the view his lordship had given of those accounts.—Owing certainly to no omission for which the noble lord could be responsible, but from the documents not having been received in due course from India, the committee had only now before them what ought more properly to have constituted the Budget of the preceding year, and had to regret that the information was still so much in arrear, as to deprive them of the means of forming ally very precise judgment of the present state of the Company's finances.—Notwithstanding the defective nature of the materials, he was glad that the present discussion had taken place. It was not likely that gentlemen reasoning upon results that can only now be given on estimate, and drawing their inferences from combinations of accounts intricate in themselves, and such as cannot be easily reconciled in a single discussion of this nature, should frequently find it impossible to agree in any very precise conclusion. At the same time, the debate served to bring into view,and into discussion many leading points connected with the management of this important concern, with sufficient accuracy, to be productive of practical advantage to the administration of Indian affairs. He had always considered the publick service much indebted to those gentlemen who provoked enquiry and discussion upon Indian subjects, from an intimate persuasion that it was attended with beneficial consequences both abroad and at home. Under this impres-
1221
1222
India Debt, April 1804
22,586,207
Debt in Europe, March 1805
6,012,196
Total
£.28,548,403
Capital Stock
7,780,000
Total Debts
£.36,328,403
Assets in India, April 1804
14,452,343
Assets at Home, March 1305.
20,442,659
£.34,895,002
Debts, including Capital
36,328,403
Assets
34,895,002
Balance against
£ 1,433,401
1223
1224
1225
1226
1227
1228
Indian Debt, April 1804
22,536,207
1793
8,074,63
Actual Increase
14,461,342
Estimated Increase to April 1806, about
6,000,000
Total Increase
£.20,461,342
Debt in Europe, March 1794
7,006,500
1805
6,012,196
Total Decrease
£.994,304
Increase in India
20,461,342
Decrease in Europe
994,504
Net Increase
£.19,467;038
1229
*
Amounted to
£. 94,756,281
Actual 1803–4
13,273,044
Estimate 1804–5
13,558,509
Estimate 1805–6
14,279,533
Revenue, 10 years
£.135,867,367
Ten Years to 1803
£.91,416,635
Actual, 1803–4
14,748,872
Estimate, 1804–5
15,005,013
Estimate, 1805–6
16,664,672
£.137,835,192
Interest paid to Commissioners of Sinking Fund
730,000
Net Expenditure abroad
137,103,192
Revenues, 13 years
135,867,367
Charges, 13 years
137,105,192
Deficiency
£.1,237,825
*See Vol.II. p. 1167.
1230
Assets in India, April 1804
14,452,343
Assets in Europe,March 1805
20,442,659
£. 34,895,002
Assets in India, April 1793
8,339,362
Assets in Europe, March 1794
9,888,836
£.18,228,198
Assets 1801–5
34,895,002
Assets, 1793–4
18,228,198
Total Increase
16,666,804
1231
Export Goods
£.1,022,007
Import Goods
1,156,228
Commercial Advances
2,131,172
Stores, in part
2,061,593
To Territories, about
4,112,981
To Commerce, about
2,000,000
£.6,112,981
1232
Gross Increase of Debt since 1793
£.19,467,038
Assignable to Trade
8,093,631
Remains
11,373,407
Deduct Claims on Government
4,460,192
Remains
£.6,913,215
1233
1234
1235
1236
1237
1238
1239
1240
1241
Dr. Laurence
said, he should not attempt to follow the noble lord through the long statement which the house bad just heard, but there were some points on which he wished to make a few short observations. If the Company could pay the 500,000l. annually, they should come and state to the house that they were capable of so doing. The noble lord (Castlereagh) had annually told the house, that the Company were in an absolute state of prosperity, and now he Venture it to come forward with a proposition for this country to relieve them by guaranteeing their loans! Mr. Dundas too,
1242
Mr. T. Jones
said, that he concurred (notwithstanding his interrupting him as to putting questions) with the learned doctor in the opinion, that the Company ought to give some account of the payment of the six million charter-money due, which at best (as stated by hint and another member Mr. Martin) was a sum suspended, and as such could not be done away with, and it amounted to a sum, which, if paid, would relieve the public from that grievous and grinding tax, the Property Tax, which had been increased in bitterness and oppression by the ungracious mode,
per saltum,
1243
1244
Mr. W. Keene
thought, that the excessive military charge of nearly 9 millions had caused the embarrassment of the Company's finances, and that prosperity might now fairly be anticipated.
Mr. Johnstone
thought the prosperity of India was calculated on estimates never to be realized, and he thought it too much for human patience to hear the arguments urged in their support.
Mr. Grant
in answer to Mr. alderman Prinsep said, that after having already engaged for some time the attention of the house, he would decline following the hon. gent. through all time details of his extraordinary speech, which contained the most extravagant and most unfounded views of the Company's affairs. It had little or no reference to the ultimate object of the discussion now carried on by the house, which was the improvement of the Company's state; its aim was evidently not the amendment but the abolition of the whole of the present system of the Company, and indeed the Company itself. For this he had pressed into his service facts altogether irrelevant, and had employed them in the most unfair and hostile manner. He was the professed
1245
1246
ab ovo
second
1247
Mr. Alderman Prinsep
concluded the debate, by observing, that if the expressions he had used, of which such heavy complaints had just been made by the hon. ex-chairman (Mr. Grant), were felt to be either disrespectful to the great body whose affairs were now again under their annual investigation, or stronger than the occasion called for, (and even in this case they could riot justify the use of invective as a reply where confutation was felt to be impossible,) he trusted, that in the one case, allowance would be made for some degree of provocation he had met with at the beginning of the debate, in a fresh attempt to preclude him from expressing his sentiments at all in the committee, and in the other case, the the committee would think with him, that, feeling as he did, the importance of the facts, and of his deductions from them, it became both his right and his duty, to enforce conviction, by the strongest language that the subject suggested to his
1248
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, July 21.
[MILITIA OFFICERS' BILL.]
On the third reading of the Militia Officer's Pay bill,
The Earl of Radnor
protested against it as a bill that offered an insult and injury to the Militia, whilst it was at the same time a breach of faith towards that valuable body of men, it having been clearly declared by parliament that the pay of the Militia officers should be equal to that of the officers of the line. He lamented that every party who came into power seemed inclined to give a blow to the Militia. The engagements that had been entered into with the Militia had now nearly all been broken; the men had been taken out of the regiments to serve in the line; officers had been appointed without the requisite landed qualifications; now the pay of the officers was to be rendered less than that of the line, and he supposed their rank would next be affected. He wished to speak against this measure in the strongest terms which his liberty of speech in parliament would allow; and viewing it in the light he did, he felt it his duty to move, that the bill be read a second time this day three months.
The Earl of Westmoreland
also thought the bill a breach of faith towards the Militia, and was at a loss to conceive on what grounds it could be supported. On a former occasion, when discussing one of the military measures of his majesty's ministers, it had been said, do not take a measure singly, but look at the whole plan, and with this license he would take the liberty of adverting to a bill for regulating the rank of volunteer officers, which either through his mistake, or the mistake of others, had passed through the house without his having an opportunity of making any remark on it;— a bill which he conceived calculated to give offence to the volunteers, without any benefit being likely to be derived from it.
Lord Grenville
declared himself a warm friend to the Militia, which he considered a very valuable part of our military force, not only as affording a force for the defence of the country in the hour of danger, but also as giving an opportunity to gentle-
1249
Lord Eldon
objected that the bill was inconsistent with itself, inasmuch as it merely professed in its title to be a bill for regulating the pay of militia officers in England and Scotland, whilst in the body of the bill there were enactments applying to the yeomanry and volunteers of Ireland.
The Earl of Moira
observed, that a trifling amendment would obviate the inconsistency of Which the noble and learned lord, complained. He professed himself a warm friend to the militia, and, coinciding completely with the arguments urged by his noble friend (lord Grenville), he could not conceive in what way the bill could be considered as offering any insult to that valuable part of our military force. He thought the lamentation of the noble earl (Westmorland), that he had missed an opportunity of debating the bill for regulating the rank of volunteer officers, was needless, as every part of the plans of ministers as embodied in the different measures brought up to that house had been most amply discussed by noble lords on the other side, who had scarcely omitted any opportunity of attacking them. With respect to that
1250
Earl Fitzwilliam
likewise defended the bill, on grounds similar to those urged by lord Grenville and the earl of Moira.
The Earl of Hardwicke
objected to the bill, on the ground of the increase of pay not being extended to captains in militia, many of whom, he said, from having been appointed without the qualification previously required, stood as much in need of an increase as any of the others to whom it had been extended.
Earl Spencer
thought, if the not extending the increase to captains had the effect of bringing back the militia in that respect, to its former principle, that of only having captains possessed of the landed qualification before required, it would produce a good effect. He defended the bill on the grounds before urged, and as to the rank of volunteer officers, he, as a volunteer field officer himself, considered that bill as a boon, and he had no doubt it would be generally considered by volunteer officers as a favour, as, with all that zeal and spirit which they would doubtless evince in the hour of danger, they could not, from want of experience, feel themselves adequate to the command of large bodies of troops.
The Duke of Rutland
expressed his entire disapprobation of the bill, which he conceived to be subversive of the constitution of the militia.
The Lord Chancellor
contended that the former declaration of the legislature, that the pay of the militia officers should. be the same as that of the line, could only apply to the then pay of the regular army, and not to any future augmentation. Those noble lords who conceived that this augmentation ought to be extended equally to the militia, might use that as an argument against the bill, but it never could be maintained that the not extending to that force an increase of pay, granted under special circumstances to the regular army, was subversive of the constitution of the militia.
Earl Camden
opposed the. bill. He thought the measures brought forward by ministers were not exactly in unison with
1251
[PUBLIC HARBOURS BILL.]
On the question for going into a committee on the Public Harbours bill.
The Earl of Limerick
complained that a bill of this importance had been brought forward at so late a period of the session. It. appeared to him likely to be mischievous in its operation, as it tended to prevent persons having property on the banks of navigable rivers, as far as the tide flowed, from making the least improvement on their estates without giving notice to the secretary of the Admiralty. The penalty for not giving this notice was 200l. and many persons might thus be entrapped without being at all aware of the nature of the law. He thought it would in many cases be useless as to the interests of the pubiic, and' instanced the river Shannon, in Ireland, where the tide flowed a mile higher than vessels of any burden could come up, yet this bill would equally operate in that part of the river where it could not be of the least use.
Lord Grenville
said the bill had been brought forward as soon as the grievance to which it applied was known; and it was a measure which he contended was highly necessary in order to preserve our public harbours and navigable rivers from obstructions. It was merely required of the Person making any embankment or other work in the situations mentioned, to send notice to the secretary of the Admiralty, which could be but a very trivial hardship. Many other rivers might be in the situation of the Shannon, where the tide flowed higher than vessels of any burden could navigate, but it was, notwithstanding, important to prevent obstructions in those parts of such rivers, in order to prevent the navigable parts of those rivers from being ultimately injured.—The bill then passed through the committee, and was reported.
1252
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, July 21.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of Mr. Creevy,new writs were ordered for the election of a member for Seaford, in the room of sir Richard Sullivan, deceased; for Buckingham, in the room of lord Proby, who had accepted the office of Steward of the C
[BARRACK ABUSES.]Mr. Robson
rose pursuant to notice, to make a motion for papers on this subiect. Since the debate, said the hon. gent. which took place lately upon India affairs, could not bring down ministers to the house, it was in vain to expect their attendance upon the present occasion. Although his majesty's ministers, however, did not think proper to come to their places, he should think it no less his duty to speak plainly of them. He had upon all former occasions submitted plain and simple motions to the consideration of the house, which if they had chosen to agree to, they. would have been by this
1253
1254
The Secretary at War
said, he did not object to the motion, nor had he objected to any motion tile hon. gent. had brought forward. At the same time, he thought it necessary to say, that the making out these accounts would be attended with great inconvenience, and a very heavy expence; for many additional clerks must be employed for the purpose; and it was for the house to consider whether they would authorise such an expence, after the hon. gent. had talked of throwing up the business, and it was not certain whether he was sincere in his intention to proceed with the inquiry. If his noble friend near him (lord H. Petty) had not taken the course had done, he should himself have objected to the motions altogether, but now he certainly should not.
1255
Mr. Robson
said, he was aware that granting motions for papers was attended with some expence, but all he had hitherto moved for, were comprised in two sheets and a half, and therefore he could not be much reproached on that head at present. He assured the house, and the right hon. secretary, he was sincere in his intention to proceed into the inquiry, and would be ready to begin to-morrow, for the more he looked into it, the more he saw it was an absolute refinement on peculation, and could not be stopped too speedily; and he wished only that he had one of those peculators before an honest jury. The report of the military board he looked upon as a hash, seasoned up with the account of the one per cent. charged by General Delancey, by way of shewing they had noticed something at the outset; but they had begun at the wrong end. Instead of going back 13 years, so far as the year 1793, they should have begun with the present abuses. It they had begun right, a report would now have been before the house, by which half a million might have been saved; and he was determined, the system of plunder which had been so long carried on, should not continue. Every hour that was lost, was an injustice, and an injury to the public. He warned the Chancellor of the Exchequer, whom he now saw in his place, against neglecting to go into an immediate and bon
1256
Mr. Robson
next moved: "That there be laid before the house, a return of the sales which have taken place at the several, temporary barracks or buildings, rented or hired by government, and used as barracks, or as barrack storehouses, in the whole of G. Britain. That the said return do embrace all such sales of the description aforesaid, that have been made between the 1st of Jan. 1793, and the 24th June, 1806; and that it be exhibited in nine columns in the order, and with the titles following. Viz—
Mr. Secretary Windham
observed, that ministers were placed in a disagreeable situation by the hon. gent.'s motions, since he seemed to consider persons who might on any account object to them as wishing to protect abuses and peculations. But it must be from the most gratuitous love of abuse, if ministers could object to the discovery of abuses which took place under their predecessors. In this observation, however, he could not include himself, for the present motion had some reference to him in an antecedent state. Here he. could not but remark the inconsistency of the hon. gent. He had complained that all the work of the commissioners of enquiry had beep retrospective, and had considered that as a most absurd way of proceeding,. while he wanted to provide against present
1257
Mr. T. Jones
said, he had no wish to give any opposition or annoyance to his majesty's ministers. He had every wish to respect their talents, to give them credit for the best intentions, and to be convinced it was by no means their wish knowingly to countenance or to screen wanton extravagance or peculation : but really and truly, the system of peculation of late years, in the department alluded to by his hon. friend (Mr. Robson) was so glaring, so horrid, and abominable, that he must say his hon. friend was justified in pressing his motion, with a view to establish some effectual and permanent check upon this glaring system of flagitious peculation. His majesty's present ministers had succeeded to power with the wishes and the warm approbation of the people, and certainly had shewn every disposition to follow up enquiry into public abuses, and to render the public force formidable for the defence of the country against a ferocious enemy: but he could assure those ministers, with every deference for their talents, that, without economy in the expenditure of the public money, with-
1258
Sir William Elford,
with every respect for the hon. member, observed, that if he had been the first to discover the peculation of which he now complained, and had come down to the house and founded upon his discovery a motion of enquiry, undoubtedly he would have deserved much popularity for his exertion. But, as this was not the case, as the house had already taken up the subject under the general head of military expenditures, and as the commissioners appointed by the house had been actually for a year past occupied in the investigation, the hon. gent. in every endeavour to add to his own popularity on this head, sought to detract from the merit of the commissioners, and of the house, by whom they were instituted, as well as very
1259
Mr. Robson
contended, that the same abuses were still going on in the same manner as before, and as it seemed the commissioners could not conclude their inquiries for three or four years, he would ask, was he, as a member of parliament, to sit still all that time, and not attempt to check them? There should be in the Barrack Office, a regular account of the sale of all the articles, the names of the items and the amount of what they respectively sold for; and it did not appear that commissioners had called for it. There was a clause in the act, that the. commissioners need not, unless they saw reason for it, inquire into any former abuses which did not still subsist, and thus the abuses escaped under this masking, clause. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had talked to him of nostrums; all the nostrums he wanted, was to probe peculation to the quick, and to apply to it such a remedy as should cure it for the future. All he wished for was inquiry; but he found by the papers already presented, that the repetition of dittos, in. many places were substituted for descriptions, as if there was a scarcity of pens, ink, and paper, in the office.
Lord H. Petty
said, he had hitherto been extremely unwilling to resist any of the motions made by the hon. gent. for the papers he required on this subject, or to withhold any information which the hon, gent. or the house think necessary; but really the document for which he now moved was of a nature so very complicated and impracticable, on a range of 13 years, as well as utterly useless towards the professed and leading object of the hon. gent. that he was inclined to oppose this motion, seeing it to be of no practical use. If the hon. gent. had any objection to the mode of inquiry by commissioners, already adopted by the house, and before whom the subject of Barracks was laid, as well as all other branches of the military expenditure, he ought to have come down to the house, and moved for a repeal of the bill under which those commissioners were appointed, in order to substitute any other plan of inquiry he should think more eligible. For his own part, he should in future
Mr. T. Jones
said, that he had had the honour of seconding the motion of his hon.
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, July 22.
[MINUTES]
The royal assent was given by commission to the Consolidated Fund bill, the Lottery bill, the Royal Family Annuities bill, earl Nelson's Annuity bill, lord Rodney's Annuity bill, the Auditor's bill, the Warehousing bill, the Irish Postage bill, the Stage Coach bill, the Woods and Forests Regulation bill, the Windsor Forest bill, the London Additional Force Repeal bill, the Militia Officers Pay bill, the Public Harbours bill, the Irish Hops bill, the Bankrupt Laws bill, and some other public and private bills. The commissioners were the lord Chancellor, earl Spencer, and lord Walsingham.—The Customs Regulation bill, the Oak Bark bill, the Scotch Forfeited Estates bill, were read a third time, and passed.—In the appeal 'Henderson v.Ramsey,' judgment was given, on the motion of the lord Chancellor, affirming the decree of the court of session.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, July 22.
[MINUTES]
According to summons, delivered by the deputy gentleman usher, of the black rod, the house proceeded to the house of Peers, and, on its return, the Speaker stated that the royal assent had been given by commission to several public and private bills.—On the motion of Mr. Hobhouse, a new writ was ordered for the borough of Bodmin in Cornwall, in room of John Serjeant, esq. who has accepted the office of the steward of the Chiltern Hundreds. A message from the Lords announced their lordships assent to the Crown Leases bill, the Customs Regulation bill, the Scotch Exchequer Chambers bill, the Scotch Forfeited Estates bill, the Scotch Canal bill, the Public Harbours Preservation bill, the Grenada Loan bill, and the Oak Bark bill.
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, July 23.
[MINUTES.]
The House met about three o'clock.—Mr. Johnson, from the office of the chief secretary for Ireland, presented the third report of the commissioners of Inquiry in Ireland; which was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The house was adjourned during pleasure, to robe.
[THE KING'S SPEECH]
About a quarter past three, the Lord Chancellor, earl Fitzwilliam, and earl Spencer, took their seats in their robes, as his majesty's commissioners. Mr. Quarme, the deputy usher of the black rod, was sent to the House of Commons, to require their attendance.
The Lord Chancellor
then, in his majesty's name, delivered the following speech:
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The Lord Chancellor
said:
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, July 23.
[MINUTES.]
About half past three, Mr. Quarme, the deputy usher of the black rod, entered, and summoned the house to the house of peers, to hear the royal commission read for passing bills, and proroguing the parliament. The Speaker, with the whole of the members present, went up accordingly to the house of lords, and on his return, calling the members round the table, read to them a copy of the King's Speech; after which the members separated.—Thus ended the fourth session of the second parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
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LIST OF PUBLIC ACTS
Passed in the Fourth Session of the Second Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and in the 46th Year of the Reign of his present Majesty, George III. with the Date of their meeting the Royal Assent.
February 7, 1806.
CHAP. 1. An act to empower the Auditor of the Exchequer to constitute a trustee for the execution of the said office in the case therein mentioned.
Feb. 12.
2. An act for continuing and granting to his majesty certain duties upon Malt in Great Britain, for the service of the year 1806.
3. An act for continuing and granting to his majesty a duty on Pensions, Offices, and Personal Estates, in England; and certain duties on Sugar, Malt, Tobacco, and Snuff, in Great Britain, for the service of the year 1806.
Feb. 28.
4. An act to enable his majesty to grant a certain Annuity to lady viscountess Nelson, in consideration of the eminent services performed by the late vice admiral lord viscount Nelson to his majesty and the public.
5. An act to enable his majesty to grant a certain Annuity to rear admiral sir R. Strachan, bart. in consideration of the eminent services which he has rendered to his majesty and the public.
6. An act for raising the sum of five millions by Loans or Exchequer Bills, for the service of Great Britain for the year 1806.
March 22.
7. An act to indemnify such persons in the United Kingdom as have omitted to qualify themselves for Offices and Eployments; and for extending the times limited for those purposes respectively, until the 25th day of December 1806, and to permit such persons in Great Britain as have omitted to make and file affidavits of the execution of Indentures of clerks to Attorneys and Solicitors, to make and file the same on or before the first day of Michaelmas term 1806.
8. An act for the regulation of his majesty's Royal Marine Forces while on shore.
9. An act for allowing, until the signa-
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10. An act for further continuing until the 25th day of March 1807, an act passed in the 43rd year of his present majesty, for discontinuing certain drawbacks and bounties on the exportation of Sugar from Great-Britain, and for allowing other drawbacks and bounties in lieu thereof.
11. An act for allowing the exportation of Corn and other articles for the use of his majesty's forces and garrisons.
12. An act to continue several acts for granting certain rates and duties, and allowing certain drawbacks and bounties, on goods, wares, and merchandise imported into and exported from Ireland; and for granting a duty upon Malt and Spirits made and distilled in Ireland, until the 29th day of September 1806; and for granting certain inland Duties of Excise and Taxes in Ireland, until the 25th day of March 1807
13. An act for settling and securing certain Annuities on Cuthbert lord Coiling-wood, and the several other persons therein described, in consideration of the signal and important service performed by the said Cuthbert lord Collingwood to his majesty and the public.
14. An act to continue, until the 25th day of March 1807, and to amend several acts for regulating the drawbacks and bounties on the exportation of Sugar from Ireland.
15. An act for punishing Mutiny and Desertion; and for the better Payment of the Army and their Quarters, within the United Kingdom, and the islands of Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney, Sark, and Man.
16. An act to continue until the first day of June 1807, and amend an act passed in the 37th year of his present majesty, for carrying into execution the Treaty of Amity, Commerce, and Navigation, between his Majesty, and the United States, of America.
17. An act to permit, until the 25th day of March 1809,the exportation to the United
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18. An act to continue, until the 25th day of March 1807, the operation of an act, passed in the last session of parliament, to suspend proceedings in actions, prosecutions, and proceedings, under certain acts relating to the Woollen Manufacture, and also under an act of queen Elizabeth, so far as the same relates to certain persons employed or concerned in the said manufacture.
19. An act for defraying the Charge of the Pay and Cloathing of the Militia in Great Britain for the year 1806.
20. An act to continue, until the 25th day of March 1807, and amend so much of an act made in the 39th and 40th years of his present majesty, as grants certain allowances to Adjutants and Serjeant-Majors of the Militia of England, disembodied under an act of the same session of parliament.
21. An act for making allowances in certain cases to Subaltern Officers of the Militia in Great Britain, while disembodied.
22. An act for defraying, until the 25th day of Match 1807, the charge of the Pay and Cloathing of the Militia of Ireland; for holding courts martial on Serjeant Majors, Serjeants, Corporals, and Drummers, for offences committed during the time such Militia shall not he embodied; and or making allowances in certain cases to Subaltern Officers of the said Militia during peace.
23. An act to extend the provisions of an .act passed in the 44th year of the reign of his present majesty, for enabling subjects of Foreign States to enlist as Soldiers in his majesty's service; and to indemnify those who have advised his majesty to land such soldiers in this kingdom.
24. An act for further continuing, until the 25th day of March 1808. an act made in the 33rd year of the reign of his present majesty, for rendering the payment of Creditors more equal and expeditious in Scotland.
March 31.
25. Act for raising the sum of 10,500,000l. by Loans or Exchequer Bills, for the service Of Great Britain for the year 1806.
26. An act for raising the sum of 1,500,000l by Loans or Exchequer Bills, for the service of Great Britain for the year 1806.
27. An act for continuing, until the 25th day.of March 1811, so much of an act made in the 15th and 16th year, or his late majesty, as relates to the landing of Rum or
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28. An act to continue, until the 25th day of March 1813, several laws relating to the Transportation of Felons and other Offenders to temporary places of confinement in England and Scotland.
April 2.
29. An act for reviving and continuing several laws of customs relating to the establishing Courts of Judicature in the island of Newfoundland; and to the prohibiting the exportation from, and permitting the importation to Great Britain, of Corn; and for allowing the importation of other articles of provision, without payment of duty, until the 25th day of March 1809; and for continuing several laws relating to the granting a Bounty upon certain species of British and Irish Linens exported from Great Britain, and taking off the duties on importation into Great Britain of Foreign Raw Linen Yarns made of Flax. to the granting a Bounty upon the importation into Great Britain of Hemp, and rough and undressed Flax from his majesty's colonies in America; and to the encouragement of the Greenland Whale Fisheries; and for reviving and continuing several laws relating to the regulating the prices at which Corn and Grain may be exported from Great Britain to Ireland, and from Ireland to Great Britain; and to the admission to entry into Great Britain of Oil and Blubber of Newfoundland, taken by his majesty's subjects carrying on the fishery from and residing in the said island; and for continuing an act of the 23rd year of his present majesty, for the more effectual encouragement of the manufactures of Flax and Cotton in Great Britain; and for reviving and continuing several laws relating to the permitting the importation into Great Britain of Hides and other articles in foreign ships; and to the prohibiting the exportation from Ireland of Corn or Potatoes, or other Provisions; and to the permitting the importation into Ireland of Corn, Fish, and Provisions,withcut payment of duty, until the 25th day of March 1808; and for reviving and continuing an act passed in the Parliament of Ireland, in the 25th year of his present majesty, for the encouragement of the Flaxen and Hempen Manufactures of Ireland, until the 25th day of March 1827; and for amending and further continuing an act made in the 7th year of his present maesty, for the free importation into Great Britain of Cochineal and Indigo, until the 25th day of March l809.
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April 21
30. An act to authorize his majesty, until the 25th day of March 1807, to make regulations respecting the Trade and Commerce to and from the Cape of Good Duties Hope
31. An act to continue, until the 25th day of March 1807, an act made in the 44th year of his present majesty, for empowering his majesty to accept the services of such parts of his Militia:Forces in Ireland might voluntarily offer themselves to be employed in Great Britain
32. An act to enable the commissioners of his majesty's treasury of Ireland to issue Treasury Bills on the credit of such aids or supplies as have been or shall be granted by parliament for the service of Ireland for the year 1806; and for making forth Duplicates of Treasury Bills lost or destroyed.
33. An act for raising the sum of 20 millions by way of Annuities.
34. An act for further continuing, until 25th day of March 1807, an act made in the 39th year of his present majesty, for the more effectual Encouragement of the British Fisheries.
May 5.
35. An act to revive and amend so much of an act made in the 43rd year of his present majesty, for granting certain Stamp Duties in Ireland, as provides for the exempting front the said duties, Bank Notes and Bank Post Bills issued by the governor and company of the bank of Ireland.
36. An act to repeal so much of an act of the last session of parliament, as charges a duty of 3s. upon certain Tenements or Dwelling Houses in Ireland.
37. An act to declare the law with respect to Witnesses refusing to answer.
38. An act for repealing the several duties of customs upon Tea imported into Great Britain, and for granting a duty in lieu thereof; and for granting to his majesty additional duties of excise on Tea.
39. An act for granting to his majesty, until 12 months after the ratification of a definitive treaty of peace, additional duties of excise on Tobacco and Snuff.
40. An act to enable his majesty to grant a certain Annuity to vice admiral sir J. T. Duckworth, knight of the most hon. order of the bath, in consideration of the eminent services which he has rendered to his majesty and the public.
41. An act for raising the sum of three million by Loans or Exchequer bills, for the service of Great Britain for the year 1806.
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42. An act for granting to his majesty, during the present war, and for six months after the expiration thereof, by the ratification of a definitive treaty of peace, additional Duties on certain Goods, Wares, and Merchandize, imported into and exported from, or brought or carried coastwise within Great Britain.
43. An act for granting to his majesty certain Stamp Duties on Appraisements and on Licenses to Appra
44. An act for carrying to the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain, the duties on Wine granted by two acts of the 43rd and 44th years of his present majesty
45. An act for the better regulation of the office of Treasurer of the Ordnance
May23.
46. An act for raising the sum of 500,000l. by Treasury Bills for the service of Ireland for the year 1806.
47. An act for raising a certain sum of money by way of Annuities or Debentures for the service of Ireland.
48. An act for continuing an act made in this session of parliament, intituled, An act for punishing Mutiny and Desertion, and for the better Payment of the Army and their Quarters, within the United Kingdom, and the islands of Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney, Sark, and Man.
49. An act for encreasing the Salaries of, the Judge of the Court of Admiralty in Scotland, and of the Judges of the Commissary Court in Edinburgh.
50. An act for extending the Annuity granted to earl of St. Vincent, to the two next persons to whom the title of viscount St. Vincent is limited.
51. An act to repeal several acts passed in the 43rd and 44th years respectively of his present majesty's reign, for the raising and establishing an Additional Force for the Defence of the Realm.
52. An act to prevent the Importation of Slaves, by any of his majesty's subjects, into any islands, colonies, plantations, or territories belonging to any foreign sovereign state or power; and also to render more effectual a certain order, made by his majesty in council on the 15th day of August 1805, for prohibiting the Importation of Slaves (except in certain cases), into any of the settlements, islands, colonies, or plantations on the Continent of America, or in the West Indies, which have been surrendered to his majesty's arms during the present war; and to prevent the fitting out of foreign slave ships from British ports.
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53. An act for indemnifying all persons who have been concerned in advising, issuing, or carrying into execution any order or orders for permitting the importation and exportation of certain goods and commodities in Foreign Bottoms, into and out of his majesty's West India islands, and the colonies, settlements, and territories, which have been conquered by his majesty's arms.
54. An act for the more speedy trial of Offences committed in distant parts upon the sea.
June 9.
55. An act to provide for the payment, at the Bank of Ireland, of the Interest on certain Debentures now payable at the Exchequer of Ireland; and also for altering the days of payment of the interest or dividends on certain annuities in Ireland.
56. An act to amend an act of the last session of parliament for continuing and amending several acts for regulating and securing the collection of the duties on Spiritous Liquors distilled in Ireland. and the Warehousing of such spirits for exportation.
57. An act to amend an act made in the last session of parliament for the collection of the Malt Duties in Ireland, and regulating the trade of a Malster.
58. An act for establishing certain regulations in the collection and management of his majesty's revenues of Customs, Excise, in Ireland.
59. An act to regulate the packing of Butter in Ireland for sale or exportation.
60. An act for amending an act passed in Ireland, in the 29th year of king George the Second, intituled, An act for amending making more effectual, the several laws relating to the First Fruits payable out of Ecclesiastical Benefices in this kingdom;and for the better regulation and management of the charitable Bequest of Dr. Hugh Boulter, late lord archbishop of Armagh, for augmenting the maintenance of poor Clergy in this kingdom, so far only as relates to the said charitable bequest.
61. An act to authorize certain public officers to send and receive Letters and Packets by the Post, free from the duty of the postage.
June 13.
62. An act for granting to his majesty, until the 29th day of September 1806, certain duties on the Importation, and to allow certain drawbacks and bounties on the Exportation of certain sorts of Iron, Sugar, and Tea into and from Ireland.
63. An act to repeal several acts passed in the 43rd and 44th years of his present
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64. An act to repeal the several duties under the care of the commissioners for managing the duties upon stamped Vellum, Parchment, and Paper, in Ireland, and to grant new and additional duties in lieu thereof; and to amend the laws relating to the Stamp Duties in Ireland.
65. An act for granting to his majesty, during the present war, and until the sixth day of April next after the ratification of Definitive Treaty of Peace, further additional rates and duties in Great Britain on the rates and duties on profits arising from Property, Professions, Trades and Offices; and for repealing an act passed in the 45th year of his present majesty, for repealing certain parts of an act made in the 43rd year of his present majesty, for granting a contribution on the profits arising from property Professions trades and offices; and to consolidate and render more effectual the provisions for collecting the said duties.
June 20.
66. An act for punishing Mutiny and Desertion; and for the better payment of the army and their quarters.
67. An act for granting to his majesty certain duties upon Malt and Spirits made in Ireland.
68. An act to continue until the 24th day of June 1807, and amend an act made in the last session of parliament, for appointing commissioners to enquire and examine into any irregularities and abuses which might have taken place in conducting and managing the paving, cleansing, and lighting the streets of Dublin.
69. An act for making better Provision for Soldiers.
July 3.
70. An act to amend an act, made in the last session of parliament, for regulating Licences for the sale of Spirituous Liquors, Wine, Beer, Ale, and Cyder, by retail us Ireland.
71. An act to amend several acts for the Encouragement of finding and working Mines and Minerals within Ireland.
72. An act for enabling his majesty to permit the Importation and Exportation of certain goods and commodities into, and from, the port of Road Harbour, in the island of Tortola.
73. An act for granting rates of postage on the conveyance of Letters and Packets. to and from Gibraltar and the island ot. Malta.
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74. An act for permitting Prussian Yarn to be imported in foreign ships, on payment of the like duties as if imported in British ships.
75. An act for the better regulation of the office of Receiver General of the Duties of Excise in England.
76. An act for the better regulation of the office of Receiver General of the Stamp Duties in England.
77. An act for continuing the encouragement of persons making discoveries for finding the Longitude at Sea, or other useful discoveries and improvements in navigation, and for making experiments relating thereto; and for discharging certain debts incurred by the commissioners of the longitude in carrying the acts relating thereto into execution.
78. An act for granting to his Majesty an additional duty on the amount of the duties under the management of the commissioners for the affairs of taxes therein mentioned.
79. An act to confirm an Agreement entered into between the commissioners of his majesty's treasury, and the most noble Augustus Henry duke of Grafton, in pursuance of an Act of the 43rd year of his present majesty.
80. An act to provide for the more effectual Examinat on of Accounts of the Expenditure of the Public Money in the West Indies, and for the better discovery of frauds and abuses therein.
81 An act for better encouraging the manufacture of Thread Lace in Great Britain.
July 12.
82. An act for abolishing Fees received by certain officers and other persons employed in the service of the customs, in the port of London; and for regulating the attendance of officers and others so employed.
83. An act for the better regulation of the office of Receiver General of the Post Office in England.
84. An act to grant certain allowances out of the duties, under the management of the commissioners for the affairs of taxes, to persons in respect of the number of their children.
85. An act for reviving and continuing until the 25th day of March 1813, an act Made in the 43rd year of his present majesty, for regulating the manner in which the United Company of Merchants of England trading to the East Indies shall hire and take up Ships for their regular service.
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86. An act for enabling his majesty to grant the Castle of Norwich, with the Common Gaol, Castle Hill, and certain land adjacent thereto, in the county of Norfolk, and for vesting the same in his majesty's justices of the peace for the said county, for the use thereof; and for other purposes relating thereto,
87. An act more effectually to regulate the collection of the duties on Goods,Wares, and Merchandize imported or exported into or from Ireland; and the payment of bounties, allowances, and drawbacks thereon.
88. An act to provide for the regulating and securing the collection of the duties on Spirits distilled in Ireland, and the warehousing of such spirits for exportation.
July 16.
89. An act for consolidating and rendering more effectual the several acts for the purchase of buildings and further improvement of the streets and places near to Westminster-hail, and the two houses of parliament.
90. An act to enable his majesty annually to train and exercise a proportion of his subjects in England, under certain regulations, and more effectually to provide for the Defence of the Realm.
91. An act for the return of correct lists of persons liable to serve in the Militia, under an act passed in the 42nd year of his present majesty; and to suspend the Ballot for the Militia in England for two years.
92. An act to amend three acts, made in the 35th, 41st, and 42nd years of his present majesty, relating to the conveyance of Letters and Packets by the post.
93. An act to enable the lords commissioners of his majesty's treasury to issue Fxchequer Bills, on the credit of such aids or supplies as have been or shall be granted by parliament for the service of Great Britain for the year 1806.
94. An act to enable the commissioners for executing the office of Lord High Treasurer of Ireland, to contract for the purchase of the duties of Prisage and Butlerage in Ireland.
95. An act for the more effectually regulating and providing for the relief of the Poor, and the management of Infirmaries and Hospitals in Ireland.
96. An act to amend the laws respecting the accounting for money presented in Ireland for the making, repairing, widening, or fencing of Public Roads, and the building and repairing of Bridges, Pipes Or Gullets.
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97. An act to permit the free interchange of every species of Grain, between Great Britain and Ireland.
98. An act for making additional and further provisions for the effectual performance of Quarantine in Great Britain.
99. An act for allowing a bounty on the exportation of Oil of Vitriol made in Great Britain.
100. An act to empower the commissioners and governors of the royal hospital for seamen at Greenwich, in the county of Kent, to make certain allowances, to old infirm, or wounded or disabled Officers in the Royal Navy, and to provide a Fund for the payment of such allowances, and for the increase of Pensions to disabled seamen and marines.
101. An act for improving the Funds of the Chest at Greenwich, and amending an act passed in the 43rd year of his present majesty, relating to the said chest.
102. An act for repealing the duties of excise on Stills used for distilling or rectifying Low Wines or Spirits for consumption in Scotland; on Worts or Wash made for extracting spirits; and on Spirits made for consumption in Scotland; and for granting and securing other duties in lieu thereof; and for better securing the duties on foreign spirits and on malt.
103. An act for allowing, until the first day of August 1807, the importation of certain Fish from Newfoundland, and the coast of Labrador,and for granting a Bounty thereon.
104. An act for continuing, until the first day of August 1807, an act of the last session of parliament, for allowing, under certain restrictions, the bringing a limited quantity of Coals, Culm, or Cinders to London and Westminster, by inland navigation.
105. An act to vest certain messuages, lands, tenements, and hereditaments, in trustees, for better securing his majesty's Docks, Ships, and Stores, at Portsmouth; and for extending the lines and works at Dover.
106. An act to provide for the better execution of the several acts relating to the revenues, matters, and things under the management of the commissioners of customs and port duties, and of the commissioners of inland excise and taxes in Ireland.
107. An act for rectifying mistakes in the names of the commissioners appointed by an act made in the last session of parliament, intituled, An act for appointing
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July 21.
108. An act for the relief of certain Insolvent Debtors.
109. An act for reducing the bounty payable on the exportation of refined Sugar from Great Britain, and for allowing the like bounty on the exportation of Sugar Candy, as is payable on refined Sugar.
110. An act tor granting during We continuance of the present war, and until six months after the ratification of a definitive treaty of peace, an additional bounty on the exportation of the Silk Manufactures of Great Britain.
111 An act for authorizing his majesty in council to allow, during the present war, and for six months after the ratification of a definitive treaty of peace, the importation and exportation of certain goods and commodities in Neutral Ships, into and from his majesty's territories in the West Indies and continent of South America.
112. An act to amend the laws of excise. so far as relates to prosecutions for penalties, to the counterfeiting the Stamps on the Wrappers of Paper, and to the punishing persons guilty of perjury.
113. An act to permit for and during the continuance of the present war, French Wines to be imported from Ireland into Great Britain in bottles or flasks, under certain restrictions.
114. An act to amend an act passed in the last session of parliament, for increasing the drawback on Linens exported from Great Britain to the West Indies.
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115. An act to permit Raisins, Currants, and Figs to be exported from Great Britain, duty free.
116. An act to allow certain articles to be exported from Gibraltar and Malta direct to his majesty's colonies in North America, in return for British American Fish.
117. An act to permit until the first day of January 1809, the importation of Masts, Yards, and Bowsprits, or of Timber fit for naval purposes, from the British colonies in North America, duty-free.
118. An act to extend the time for purchasing the legal Quays and Warehouses in the port of London, and for authorising the lords commissioners of his majesty's treasury to purchase Somers and Lyons Quays in the said port.
119. An act to prohibit for two years after the conclusion of the present session of parliament, any ships to clear out from any port of Great Britain, for the coast of Africa, for the purpose of taking on board Negroes, unless such ships shall have been previously employed in the African trade, or contracted for, for that purpose.
120. An act to continue several acts for granting certain rates and duties, and allowing certain drawbacks and bounties on Goods, Wares, and Merchandize imported into and exported from Ireland, until the 5th day of July 1807; and several acts for granting duties upon Malt and Spirits made and distilled in Ireland, and for the better collection and security of the revenues of customs and excise in Ireland, and for preventing frauds therein, until the 29th day of September 1807; and to amend several of the said acts.
121. An act to repeal so much of an act, made in the 1st year of king James the Second, as prohibits the importation of gunpowder, arms, and utensils of war, from Ireland.
122. An act to revive and amend an act made in the parliament of Ireland, for enabling the lord lieutenant to appoint commissioners for enquiring into the several funds and revenues granted for the purposes of Education, and into the state and conditions of all Schools in Ireland.
123. An act to amend several acts for the sale of his majesty's Quit Rents, Crown, and other Rents, and of certain lands forfeited and undisposed of in Ireland.
124. An act to enable his majesty to accept the services of Volunteers from the Militia of Ireland, under certain restrictions.
125. An act for regulating the rank of
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126. An act for increasing the Rates of Subsistence to be paid to Inn-keepers and others on quartering soldiers.
127. An act to amend and extend the benefits of an act made in the 35th year of his present majesty, to enable Petty Officers, Seamen, and Marines, serving in his majesty's navy, to allot part of their wages or pay for the maintenance of their wives and families.
128. An act for making provision for such Masters in Ordinary of the High Court of Chancery as from age or infirmity shall be desirous of resigning their offices with the approbation of the said court; and for augmenting the income of the masters in ordinary of the sail court.
129. An act to provide additional salaries to the present clerks in the office of the accountant general of the high court of chancery, and to provide additional clerks for the said office, with salaries; and to make other payments in respect of the said office.
130. An act for making compensation to the proprietors of such lands and hereditaments as have been purchased for better securing his majesty's Docks, Ships, and Stores at Chatham, and for the use of his majesty's ordnance at Wa
131. An act for exonerating the estates of Percival Lewis, esq. and Marianne Lewis, spinster, in the parish of Putney in the county of Surrey, from the claims of his majesty against the estate of Edward Lewis, esq. deceased.
132. An act for erecting a Light House on the Bell or Cape Rock, on the eastern coast of Scotland, and for enabling the commissioners of the treasury to advance a certain sum of money out of the consolidated fund of Great Britain, towards that purpose.
July 22.
133. An act to amend an act passed in the 42nd year of his present majesty, for consolidating the several acts passed for the Redemption and Sale of the Land-tax, and to make further provision for exonerating small livings and charitable institutions from the land-tax.
134. An act to provide for the security and expedition of the conveyance of Letters by the post in Ireland.
135. An act to amend the laws relating to Bankrupts.
136. An act to alter and amend two
1277
137. An act to extend the provisions of an act made in the 43rd year of his present majesty, for permitting certain articles to be warehoused in Great Britain, to other articles not therein mentioned, and to alter the condition of the bond directed to be given by an act of the 24th year of his present majesty, by the masters and owners of vessels and boats licensed by the lords of the admiralty.
138. An act to repeal part of the excise countervailing duty on Irish Hops imported; for granting an excise countervailing duty on the importation of Irish Window Glass;
139. An act for altering and amending several laws relating to the duties of excise upon Malt, until the 25th day of March, 1807.
140. An act to amend two acts, passed in the 42nd year of his present majesty, relating to the Militia of England and Scotland respectively as to the pay of the officers and men of the said militia.
141. An act for making more effectual provision for the more speedy and regular examination and audit of the Publick Accounts of this kingdom.
142. An act for the better regulation of the office of Surveyor General of Woods and Forests.
143. An act for enquiring into the State of Windsor Forest, in the county of Berks, and for ascertaining the boundaries of the said forest, and of the lands of the crown within the same.
144. An act to repeal an act passed in the 44th year of his present majesty, intituled, An act to alter, amend, and render more effectual an act, passed in the present session of parliament, intituled, 'An act for establishing and maintaining a permanent Additional Force for the defence of the realm, and to provide for augmenting his majesty's Regular Forces, and for the gradual reduction of the Militia of England, so far as the same relates to the city of London.
145. An act for enabling his majesty to settle Annuities on certain branches of the Royal Family.
146. An act for settling and securing a certain Annuity on the earl Nelson and the
1278
147. An act to enable his majesty to continue a certain Annuity to George now lord Rodney, grandson of George Brydges lord Rodney, in consideration of the eminent services rendered to his majesty and the public by the said George Brydges lord Rodney.
148. Act act for granting to his majesty a sum of money to be raised by Lotteries.
149. An act for granting to his majesty a certain sum of money out of the Consolidated Fund of Great Britain for the year 1806; and for further appropriating the supplies granted in this session of parliament.
July 23.
150. An act for the better regulation of the office of Receiver General of the Duties of Customs in Great Britain.
151. An act to enable his majesty to grant new leases on former rents for the benefit of Charitable Institutions, or augmentation of Ecclesiastical Corporations.
152. An act to stay, until 40 days after the commencement of the next session of parliament, proceedings in actions, prosecutions, or informations under an act made in the second year of king James, the First, intituled, An act concerning Tanners, Curriers, Shoemakers, and other Artificers, occupying the cutting of Leather, so far as relates to the buying of Oak Bark and rough Hides and Calves Skins in the Hair.
153. An act for the preservation of the Public Harbours of the united kingdom.
154. An act for taking down the present building in which the treasury chambers and offices of the court of exchequer in Scotland were situated, and erecting new buildings in lieu thereof.
155. An act for applying certain balances arising from the Forfeited Estates in Scotland, towards making Canals, Harbours, and other public Works there.
156. An act for appropriating certain Balances arising from the Forfeited Estates in Scotland to the use of the British Fisheries and the erecting a Lunatic Asylum at Edinburgh, and the payment of the officers of the late board of annexed estates in Scotland.
1279
157. An act for more effectually carrying into execution the purposes of an act made in the 39th and 40th year of his present majesty, to give further time for the payment, on the conditions therein mentioned, of instalments on certain Loans advanced to the house of Alexander Houstoun and Co. to Charles Ashwell, esq. and to William Johnstone, esq. being persons connected with and trading to the islands of Grenada and St. Vincent, so far as relates to the real and personal estates of William Mac Dowall, and Robert Houstoun Rae, in the West Indies and elsewhere, except in Scotland
1280
158. An act for more effectually carrying into execution the purposes of an act made in the 39th and 40th year of his present majesty, to give further time for the payment, on the conditions, therein mentioned, of instalments on certain Loans advanced to the house of Alexander Houstoun and Co. to Charles Ashwell, esq. and to William Johnstone, esq. being persons connected with and trading to the islands of Grenada and St. Vincent, so far as relates to the real and personal estates of William Mac Dowall, James Mac Dowall, and Robert Housuton Rae, esqrs. in Scotland.
i
APPENDIX
PARLIAMENTRY PAPERS.
An Account of the Amount of all Exemptions granted to Foreigners, in respect of the Duty on Dividends, in the various Funds of Great Britain, on the Dividends of the East-India and South-Sea Companies; —under the Property Tax;—in the Year 1803.
DESCRIPTION OF STOCK.
Amount of Capital Stock exempted by the Commissrs. for the City of London.
DESCRIPTION OF STOCK.
Amount of Capital Stock claimed to be exempted between 1st Feb. and 3d May 1806.
3-per Cent. Consols
4,971,190
7
9
3-per Cent. Consols
2,288,899
0
0
3-per Cent. Reduced
839,598
2
3
3-per Cent. Reduced
1,030,324
4
0
3-per Cent. 1726
19,450
0
0
3-per Cent. 1726
32,489
10
0
3-per Cent. 1751
96,911
17
2
3-per Cent. 1751
21,645
0
0
3-per Cent. New So. Sea Annuities
195,391
0
0
3-per Cent. New So. Sea Annuities
88,133
7
10
3-per Cent. Old So. Sea Annuities
283,166
14
5
3-per Cent. Old So. Sea Annuities
135,364
4
3
3-per Cent. Imperial
38,100
11
3
4-per Cents.
124,555
11
10
4-per Cents.
607,188
19
2
5-per Cents.
32,013
4
0
5-per Cent. Navy
114,549
11
9
5-per Cent. 1797
93,939
3
1
3,753,424
1
11
East-India Stock
612,040
14
1
South-Sea Stock
1,029,984
10
6
8,906,511
11
5
Long Annuities
3,794
1
0
Long Annuities
591
8
1
Short Annuities
3,917
15
0
Short Annuities
405
0
0
£.
7,711
16
0
£.
996
8
1
The Special Commissioners, appointed by the Act of 45 Geo. III. to check the Accounts of Dividends, having discovered many Accounts in the Bank Books undischarged, did, in the beginning of February last, by virtue of that Act, require Payment of the Duty, and in consequence have received notice of Claims of Exemptions, on Account of Foreign Stock, as in the Amounts in the second part of the Account above; which Accounts are coming in daily to a great Amount. No Exemptions have yet been granted thereon. The Authority by which they were granted in the Year 1803, determined by the Act of 45 Geo. III. and the Authority of the Special Commissioners, has no relation to the Years 1803 and 1804. The reason assigned for not having claimed the Exemptions at the time, as communicated by the Agents, is, that it was considered by them not to be necessary. Under these Circumstances, the Amount of Foreign Stock liable to Exemption cannot be ascertained beyond the Amount above stated.
Office for Taxes,
WILLIAM lOWNDES.
iii
Abstract Statement of the PUBLIC INCOME of Great Britain, for the Year ended 5th January, 1806.
Heads of Revenue.
Gross Receipt.
Net Produce.
Paid into Excheqr.
ORDINARY REVENUES.
Permanent and Annual Duties.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
England
8,481,303
6
11
6,715,794
19
6¾
6,314,141
14
2¾
Customs
Scotland
623,495
17
2¼
477,094
16
4½
305,290
0
0
Customs
Great Britain
9,104,799
4
1¼
7,192,889
15
11¼
6,619,431
14
2¾
Excise
England
16,554,354
5
10
15,137,096
14
0¼
15,076,939
3
11½
Excise
Scotland
1,278,872
9
8½
1,215,788
16
10½
914,500
0
0
Excise
Great Britain
17,833,226
15
6½
16,352,885
10
10¾
15,991,439
3
11½
Stamps
England
3,931,616
8
6¾
3,854,340
17
3
3,672,793
5
2
Stamps
Scotland
262,669
4
3½
269,186
5
11
246,170
17
2
Stamps
Great Britain
4,194,285
12
10¼
4,123,527
3
2
3,918,964
2
4
Land and Assessed Taxes
England
5,910,290
0
9¼
6,036,273
6
8¾
5,410,425
7
9
Land and Assessed Taxes
Scotland
196,630
10
1
225,505
12
7½
135,462
6
5
Land and Assessed Taxes
Great Britain
6,106,920
10
10¼
6,261,778
19
4¼
5,545,887
14
2
Post Office
England
1,316,897
10
0
1,087,757
19
0
948,976
12
6
Post Office
Scotland
129,175
14
6
149,247
0
10½
108,023
7
6
Post Office
Great Britain
1,446,073
4
6
1,237,004
19
10½
1,057,000
0
0
1
s.
£.
England
47,796
5
0¼
50,018
10
4¾
46,131
0
0
Scotland
3,979
14
9
3,814
1
11½
3,814
0
0
1
s.
£.
Great Britain
51,775
15
3
53,832
12
4¼
49,945
0
0
6
d.
£.
England
55,536
4
3
55,186
5
6
55,185
14
5¼
Scotland
3,274
14
9
2,154
5
6¾
2,154
5
6¾
6
d.
£.
Great Britain
58,810
19
0
57,340
11
0¾
57,340
0
0
Hackney Coaches
28,761
13
6
26,454
14
10¾
26,062
2
0
Hawkers and Pedlars
11,120
19
11
8,444
2
9¾
8,295
0
0
Total Permanent and Annual Duties
38,835,774
15
7¾
35,314,158
10
4¼
33,274,364
16
8¼
Small Branches of Hereditary Revenue.
Han
aper 2,000
0
0
Alienation Fines
7,456
13
4
10,191
10
1
3,797
6
5
Post Fines
478
17
10
4,040
12
8¼
Seizures
83,191
5
6¼
83,191
5
6¼
83,191
5
6¼
Compositions
2
13
4
2
13
4
2
13
4
Proffers
678
2
0
678
2
0
678
2
0
Crown Lands
30,916
7
1¾
59,269
8
3¼
966
13
4
Extraordinary Resources.
WAR TAXES.
Customs
England
2,460,752
13
0
2,435,944
19
10¼
2,311,616
16
6½
Customs
Scotland
198,477
2
9
196,202
0
0¼
153,410
0
0
Customs
Great Britain
2,659,229
15
9
2,632,147
19
10½
2,465,026
16
6½
*
England
6,028,537
16
1¾
5,938,754
4
8
5,938,600
0
0
Excise
Scotland
378,333
1
6
421,475
9
1¾
351,500
0
0
Excise
Great Britain
6,406,870
17
7¾
6,360,229
13
9¾
6,290,100
0
0
Property Tax
England
4,345,850
1
10
4,231,253
12
9½
4,231,253
12
9½
Property Tax
Scotland
150,292
2
1
146,330
0
0
146,330
0
0
Property Tax
Great Britain
4,496,142
3
11
4,377,583
12
9½
4,377,583
12
9½
Arrears of Income Duty
49,703
2
0¾
48,392
9
6
48,392
9
6
Arrears of Taxes collected under the Aid and Contribution Act
1,038
4
10½
1,010
17
3¾
1,010
17
3¾
Lottery, Net Profit
382,187
10
0
360,048
3
7
360,048
3
7
Monies paid on Account of the Interest of Loans raised for the Service of Ireland
1,592,570
10
5
1,592,570
10
5
1,592,570
10
5
On Account of the Commissioners, appointed by Act 35 Geo III. for Issuing Exchequer Bills for Grenada
234,000
0
0
234,000
0
0
234,000
0
0
Fees of Regulated Exchequer Offices
63,220
3
4
63,220
3
4
63,220
3
4
Produce of sundry, Magazines, &c. sold on Account if Government
60,244
19
1
60,244
19
1
60,244
19
1
Monies paid on Account of the Surplus Revenue of the Isle of Man
21,303
19
5
21,303
19
5
21,303
19
5
Imprest Money Repaid by sundry Public Accountants
115,972
4
2¼
115,972
4
2¼
115,972
4
2¼
Other Monies Paid to the Public
789
0
3½
789
0
3½
789
0
3½
Total
Independent of Loans
55,041,771
5
9¼
51,339,045
15
10¼
48,995,263
13
9
Loans paid into the Exchequer, including
£.
25,130,404
19
6½
25,130,404
19
6½
25,130,404
19
6½
Grand Total
£.
80,172,176
5
3¾
76,469,450
15
4¾
74,125,668
13
3½
*
Note
l
s
d
l
s
d
£
l
s
d
l
s
d
v
An Account of the Income of, and Charges upon, the CONSOLIDATED FUND, for the Year ending the 5th April, 1806; distinguishing each Quarter.
INCOME.
In the Quarters ended
In Year ended 5th April, 1806.
5th July, 1805.
10th Oct. 1805.
5th Jan. 1806.
5th April, 1806.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Permanent Taxes.
7611718
19
6½
7448141
5
0
7192149
11
6
6113848
19
5¼
28365858
15
6½
Surplus of Sugar, Malt, and Tobacco
275395
0
0
399328
0
0
630011
12
1½
877760
6
8½
2182994
18
10
Land Taxes
363952
10
7½
200005
3
7½
338346
5
2½
116557
13
1½
1018861
12
6¾
Do on Personal Estates
54769
3
8½
21895
15
10½
25833
12
10½
27673
16
8½
130172
9
1¾
Income Duties
29663
14
6½
5792
10
10¾
1917
1
4½
37373
6
9¼
Imprest Monies
76327
1
8¼
53849
16
1¼
87774
16
2
70882
11
5½
288834
5
5
Arrears of Assessed Taxes, An. 1798.
331
7
8¾
1601
5
3¾
29
11
8
1962
4
8½
Brought from Money reserved for Tontine, An. 1789, on Account of Treasury Nominees
12193
10
3¼
12192
9
1½
24385
19
4¾
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Co. for Ireland
467941
3
9
337464
6
2
485686
9
5
367649
16
10
1658741
16
2
Money paid by Abm. Newland, Esq. on Account of Commissioners of Exchequer Bills, per Act 35 Geo. III
49000
0
0
20000
0
0
88000
0
0
38000
0
0
195000
0
0
£.
8941292
11
9¾
8488078
2
11¾
8861941
9
5
7612373
4
3¾
33903685
8
6¼
CHARGES.
In the Quarters ended
In Year ended 5th April, 1806.
5th July, 1805.
10th Oct. 1805.
5th Jan. 1806.
5th April. 1806
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Interest of Public Debt created prior to the 5th January, 1803.
6560811
0
11¼
3792343
13
8½
6594212
11
9
3782133
2
5
20729500
8
9¾
Do. 1803.
146160
0
0
165626
11
3
146160
0
0
165626
11
3
623573
2
6
Do. 1804.
227482
7
0
268039
14
4½
204253
16
0
262737
5
8¼
962513
3
0¾
Do. 1805.
209832
19
0
114383
4
4½
762435
11
11½
172996
7
0½
1259648
2
4½
Commissioners for Reduct of Public Debt
1213613
11
9
1232176
14
10
1221591
3
10¾
1234091
3
10¾
4901472
14
4½
Civil List
224500
0
0
224500
0
0
224500
0
0
224500
0
0
898000
0
0
Do. per Act 44 Geo.III.
15000
0
0
15000
0
0
15000
0
0
15000
0
0
60000
0
0
Courts of Justice
9011
19
3
19871
0
10
11980
7
3
19074
16
6
59938
3
10
Mint
3450
0
0
1742
2
0
4650
0
0
5197
11
6
15039
13
6
Salaries, Allowances, & Incidental Charges
5099
7
0
5825
2
6
6884
0
6
7651
9
6
25459
19
6
Pensions
70966
13
4
70356
0
4½
66091
13
4
68664
1
7¾
276078
8
8¼
Bounties
48456
13
8
429126
19
3
15000
0
0
40286
18
6
532870
11
5
£.
8734384
11
11¼
6338991
3
6
9272759
4
8¼
5997959
7
11¼
10344094
8
0¾
Exchequer,
May 30th, 1806.
WM. ROSE HAWORTH.
vii
Account of the CONSOLIDATED FUND of Great Britain, for the Year ended 5th January, 1806.
INCOME.
CHARGE.
Actual Payment out of the Consolidated Fund, in the Year ended 5th January 1806.
Future Annual Charge upon the Consolidated Fund, as it stood on 5th January 1806.
Net Produce of the Custom Duties
£.
3,836,860
0
2¾
Charge on Account of the Public Debt
£
24,844,076
9
6½
24,845,317
10
1½
Excise Consolidated
13,718,927
12
3½
CIVIL LIST.—His Majesty's Household
898,000
0
0
898,000
0
0
Stamps
3,120,572
0
0
Do. per Act 44 Geo. III. Cap
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
Incidents
5,674,809
0
0
Courts of Justice.—Judges of England and Wales, in Augmentation of their Salaries
18,047
19
8½
Uncertain.
Surplus of Sugar, Malt, and Tobacco, annually granted
1,646,787
4
11¾
Land Tax on Pensions and Personal Estates, annis 1799, 1800, 1801, 1802, 1803, 1804, 1805
1,170,560
6
3¾
Aaron Graham, Esq. Inspector of the temporary Places of Confinement of Felons, &c.
350
0
0
Arrears of Income duty, annis 1799, 1800, 1801
65,922
16
5
Wm. Baldwin, Esq. Rec. of the 7 Pub. Offices of Police
15,239
9
4½
Arrears of Land Tax prior to 1798
27,299
2
3½
Patrick Colquhoun, Esq. Do. of Thames Police Office
7,479
9
4
Arrears of
Additional Assessed Taxes
2,040
6
5½
Keeper of the Hanaper in Chancery
3,000
0
0
Annual Malt, anno 1802
1,000
0
0
John Bedford, Esq. Chief Justice of the 
 Adm. Court
in the Island of Barbadoes
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Ditto 1803
2
0
0
Money reserved on Account of Nominees appointed by the Lords of the Treasury, in Tontine, anno 1789
24,385
19
4¾
Henry M. Dyer, Esq. Do 
 Bahamas
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
John Sewell, Esq. Do
 Malta
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Monies paid into the Treasury by divers Persons, being small Balances due to the Public
441,122
1
3½
Alexander Croke, Esq. Do 
 America
1,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Henry J. Hinchcliffe, Esq. Do 
 Jamaica
1,760
12
9
2,000
0
0
Imprest Monies
54,408
5
0¼
William Territh, Esq. Do Bermudas
2,473
8
1
2,000
0
0
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, for Interest, Management, and
£.
912,960
14
1
The Sheriffs of 
 England 
 and Wales
4,000
0
0
4,000
0
0
MINT.—Master of His Majesty's Mint in England
10,350
0
0
13,800
0
0
Receiver of the Fees in the Office of the Mint
3,136
10
6
Uncertain.
Master of His Majesty's Mint in
 Scotland
1,200
0
0
1,200
0
0
Salaries and Allowances
25,282
9
6
17,950
0
0
Parliamentary Pensions
278,281
0
4½
265,166
13
8
Bounties: For the Growth of Hemp and Flax in 
 Scotland
2,956
13
8
For the better Improvement of the 
 Port of London
2,956
13
8
Towards completing the Wet Docks in the Harbour of
60,000
0
0
Uncertain.
Leith
25,000
0
0
By Payments to the Owners and Occupiers of the legal Quays between 
 London Bridge 
 and the 
 Tower of London 
, for the Purchase of their Interest therein, pursuant to the verdict of Juries, by Act 43 Geo. III Cap. 124, including
£.
s
403,126
19
3
Wm. Stevens, Treasurer to the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty
500
0
0
Total Income of Consolidated Fund, applicable towards paying the Charge existing at 5th January, 1803
30,697,657
8
9¼
Total Charge upon the Consolidated Fund created prior to 5th Jan. 1803, as it stood in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1806
26,671,261
0
1
26,119,590
17
1½
ix
DUTIES Pro Anno 1803.
Surplus of Duty on Receipts, 1803, per Act, 43 Geo. III. Cap. 126
53,263
13
8
DEBT incurred in respect of
£
Reserved out of Consol. Customs, per Act 43 Geo. III. Cap. 68, from July 1803, at
£.
250,000
0
0
Annuities on
£
£
£
292,320
0
0
292,320
0
0
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, on Account of Loan of
£
136,523
1
5
Ditto on
£
£
£
292,320
0
0
292,320
0
0
Total Income of Duties pro Anno 1803
439,806
15
1
Ditto for 56½ Years, at 6
s
d
38,933
2
6
38,933
2
6
Ditto
£
195,765
5
7
195,765
5
7
DUTIES Pro Anno 1804.
Total Charge for Debt incurred in the Year 1803
£
819,338
8
1
819,338
8
1
Surplus of Consol. Stamp Duties, by Act 41 Geo. III Cap.98; to commence from 10th October 1804
740,150
16
6
DEBT incurred in respect of
£
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, for Interest, Management, and
£
£
£
331,269
14
1
Annuities on
£
£
£
408,507
12
0
408,507
12
0
Total Income of Duties pro Anno 1804
1,071,420
10
7
Do on
£
£
£
507,540
0
0
507,540
0
0
Ditto on
£
263,900
0
0
263,900
0
0
DUTIES Pro Anno 1805.
Total of Excise Duties
402,655
11
8
Ditto on 2,716,814
l
s
d
£
£
£
£
81,504
8
9
81,504
8
9
Duty on Goods, anno 1505
207,186
8
10
Ditto on
£
27,168
2
11
27,168
2
11
Ditto Legacies
4,957
12
2
Total Charge for Debt incurred in the Year 1804
£
1,288,620
3
8
1,288,620
3
8
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, on Account of Loans for the Service of Ireland
211,817
0
10
Total Income of Duties for 1805
826,616
13
6
DEBT incurred in respect of
£
1,724,089
17
2
1,724,089
17
2
Do Do at 5th Jan. 1803
30,697,657
8
9¼
Do Do for 1803
439,806
15
1
Total Charge for Debt, incurred in the Year 1805
£
1,409,187
14
11¼
1,724,089
17
2
Do Do for 1804
1,071,420
10
7
Do created prior to 5th January 1803
26,671,261
0
1
26,119,590
17
1½
Total Charge for Debt, incurred in the Year 1803
819,338
8
1
819,338
8
1
Do Do Do 1804
1,288,620
3
8
1,288,620
3
8
Total Income of Consolidated Fund, in the Year ended 5th January 1806
£
63,035,501
7
11¼
Total actual Payments out of, and future Charge upon, the Consolidated Fund, for the Year ended 5th January 1806
£
30,188,407
6
9
29,951,639
6
0½
Exchequer, the 18th Day of March, 1806.
WM. ROSE HAWORTH.
xi
An Account of the Net Produce of the PERMANENT TAXES and the WAR TAXES for the Year ending 5th January, 1806; distinguishing each Quarter, and distinguishing the Produce of the Permanent Taxes and the War Taxes.
In the Quarters ended
In the Year ended 5th Jan. 1806.
5th April, 1805.
5th July, 1805.
10th Oct. 1805.
5th Jan. 1806.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
Consolidated, after reserving
£.
820,418
0
7¼
686,671
14
1
1,383,214
4
7¾
900,228
2
1
3,790,532
1
5
Quarantine duty
1,512
9
7
7,804
3
0
3,757
12
7¾
4,287
16
2
17,362
1
4¼
4½
l.
9,046
6
2
8,623
17
0½
620
15
6
239
10
0
18,350
8
8½
Canal and dock duty
4,715
3
8
12,742
16
0
6,335
6
2½
8,172
11
7
31,965
17
5½
Excise consolidated
3,268,557
0
0
3,702,752
17
2½
3,823,018
6
9
3,327,255
0
0
14,121,583
3
11½
Stamps
Consolidated, after deducting the surplus of the duty on receipts, 1803, by act 43 Geo. III.
Reserved out of consolidated stamp duties
£
s
d
693,828
0
0
844,903
19
0
769,365
19
6
769,365
19
6
3,077,463
18
0
Compositions for stamps, per Bank of England
14,000
0
0
8,000
0
0
8,000
0
0
3,000
0
0
38,000
0
0
Licences for selling lottery tickets
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Incidents
Letter Money
257,000
0
0
254,000
0
0
314,000
0
0
248,000
0
0
1,073,000
0
0
Arrears of duty repealed by act 43 Geo. III. Cap 161. out of
Houses and windows
79,473
16
11
49,640
8
4½
23,364
17
6
24,678
14
0¼
178,932
14
11¾
Inhabited houses
27,675
5
1¼
17,564
8
11
21,192
0
8½
11,048
12
9¼
77,705
9
4
Horses for riding
16,843
5
1¾
20,693
7
2½
14,013
13
4
16,871
13
9
68,382
15
8½
Do. Husbandry
13,330
16
6½
11,476
6
7
24,173
4
1
10,776
9
4
59,796
0
3½
Male servants
11,355
7
10
10,302
10
8
5,522
12
11½
10,593
5
8
37,773
17
1½
Carriages
17,875
18
9
10,653
0
2½
12,482
2
3
12,106
2
4
59,117
3
6½
Dogs
9,375
17
10
7,849
1
4
5,579
14
9
5,370
4
0
28,174
17
11
Arrears of
10
l.
-
-
-
-
-
-
0
0
6
-
-
-
0
0
6
20
l.
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
172
3
2¾
172
3
2¾
Clocks and watches
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
689
5
0
689
5
0
Hawkers and pedlars
640
0
0
2,680
0
0
3,715
0
0
1,110
0
0
8,145
0
0
Hackney coaches and chairs
6,586
0
0
7,411
0
0
5,938
2
0
4,390
0
0
24,325
2
0
6
d.
10,000
0
0
14,000
0
0
14,000
0
0
19,340
0
0
57,340
0
0
1
s.
8,000
0
0
13,329
6
9
11,000
0
0
18,445
0
0
50,774
6
9
Seizures
1,154
15
2
30,346
12
8
20,400
0
0
31,289
17
8¼
83,191
5
6¼
Proffers
0
15
1
533
0
0
130
12
6
13
14
5
678
2
0
Compositions
1
6
8
-
-
-
1
6
8
-
-
-
2
13
4
Rent of alum mines
480
0
0
-
-
-
480
0
0
-
-
-
960
0
0
Ditto of a light-house
-
-
-
6
13
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
6
13
4
Alienation duty
3,977
18
8
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
3,977
18
8
First fruits of the clergy
-
-
-
3,847
14
3¾
-
-
-
-
-
-
3,847
14
3¼
Tenths of ditto
-
-
-
3,847
2
4½
-
-
-
9,872
2
4½
Fines and forfeitures
1,017
8
3
110
0
0
-
-
-
-
-
-
1,127
8
3
Waggons(arrears)
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Arrears of
Hair powder certificates 1795
9,076
14
4½
9,389
11
7
1,920
10
9
2,252
19
10½
22,639
16
7
Horse dealers' licences 1796
1,887
16
6½
676
0
9½
153
15
1½
911
12
10½
3,629
5
4
Armorial Bearings 1798
4,768
18
1
4,324
1
11½
509
9
2½
1,885
16
1½
11,488
5
4½
xiii
Hair powder certificates, per act 41 Geo. III. cap. 69
1,100
0
0
13,020
0
0
6,480
0
0
13,992
13
8
34,592
13
8
Horse dealers' licences ditto
-
-
-
1,140
0
0
330
0
0
1,408
19
5
2,878
19
5
Armorial bearings ditto
650
0
0
5,400
0
0
2,640
0
0
7,866
0
4½
16,556
0
4½
Duties granted by act 43 Geo. III. cap. 161. on
Reserved out of houses & windows by act 43 Geo. 3. cap. 161. at £.474,474 per qr.
238,762
4
6
649,350
0
0
252,251
0
0
638,440
5
4½
1,778,803
9
10½
Inhabited houses
52,950
0
0
211,320
0
0
103,050
0
0
103,865
4
3½
471,185
4
3½
Horses for riding
40,411
0
0
214,660
0
0
58,900
0
0
182,148
6
2
496,119
6
2
Ditto and mules
26,443
0
0
193,860
0
0
45,400
0
0
159,986
4
10½
422,689
4
10½
Male servants
13,900
0
0
126,720
0
0
41,550
0
0
67,650
11
0½
249,820
11
0½
Carriages
24,600
0
0
106,930
0
0
47,250
0
3
81,308
4
7½
26,088
4
7½
Dogs
4,700
0
0
37,830
0
0
15,350
0
0
32,165
0
11
90,045
0
11
DUTIES PRO ANNO 1803.
5,696,115
5
5
7,313,434
13
4½
7,046,090
7
6
6,733,434
5
2
26,789,074
9
6½
Brought from consolidated customs, £.62,500 per quarter, by act 43 Geo. III. cap. 68
62,500
0
0
62,500
0
0
62,500
0
0
62,500
0
0
250,000
0
0
Surpl. of duty on receipts, 1803, after reserving as by act 43 G. III. c. 126
7,824
0
0
20,507
0
0
12,523
0
0
12,429
13
8
53,283
13
8
Ditto on houses and windows, 1804, after do. as per act 44 G. III. c. 161
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
DUTIES PRO ANNO 1864.
5,766,439
5
5
7,396,441
13
4¼
7,121,113
7
6½
6,808,363
16
10
27,092,358
3
2½
Surplus of consolidated stamp duties, after reserving as per act 44 Geo. III. cap. 98, from Oct. 1804
-
-
-
187,184
1
0
230,860
0
6
322,106
15
0
740,150
16
6
DUTIES PRO ANNO 1805.
5,766,439
5
5 ¾
7,583,625
14
4¼
7,351,973
8
0½
7,130,470
11
10
27,832,508
19
8½
Goods, &c. 1805
-
-
-
50,436
18
10½
94,864
12
5½
61,884
17
6
207,186
8
10
Legacies
-
-
-
-
-
-
1,924
0
0
3,033
12
2
4,957
12
2
5,766,439
5
5¾
7,634,062
13
2¼
7,448,762
0
6
7,135,389
1
6
28,044,653
0
8½
Surplus of duties annually granted, after discharging exchequer bills charged thereon
Sugar and malts
204,505
16
4
-
-
-
-
-
-
519,506
10
3½
724,012
6
7½
Malt
45,651
0
0
250,430
0
0
381,178
0
0
79,087
0
0
756,346
0
0
Tobacco
104,317
0
0
24,965
0
0
18,150
0
0
31,416
1
10
178,848
1
10
6,120,913
1
9¾
7,909,457
13
2¾
7,848,090
0
6
7,825,398
13
7½
29,703,859
9
2
Duties granted to discharge £.2,000,000 exchequer bills, pro annis 1804 & 1805
Sugar and malts
55,645
7
0
372,673
16
10¾
513,993
3
3
688,026
8
9½
1,630,338
16
0
Malt
8,450
0
0
600
0
0
7,351
0
0
154,929
0
0
171,330
0
0
Tobacco
19,174
0
0
82,742
0
0
110,995
0
0
76,670
18
2
289,581
18
2
WAR TAXES.
6,204,182
8
9¾
8,365,473
10
1¼
8,480,429
3
9
8,745,025
0
7
31,795,110
3
4
British spirits, anno 1803
259,611
0
0
256,427
0
0
157,918
0
0
86,591
0
0
760,547
0
0
Foreign ditto
194,210
0
0
193,841
0
0
209,376
3
6
228,476
0
0
825,903
3
6
Wines
106,350
0
0
78,356
0
0
114,726
0
0
66,650
0
0
366,082
0
0
Malt
123,324
0
0
611,380
0
0
1,051,375
0
0
580,654
0
0
2,366,733
0
0
Goods and shipping
245,810
17
2
471,350
5
9¼
469,865
12
3¼
449,140
19
5½
1,636,167
14
8
Tea
357,536
0
0
383,935
0
0
588,922
0
0
381,475
0
0
1,711,868
0
0
Sweets
1,198
0
0
1,039
0
0
1,671
16
6
165
0
0
4,073
16
6
Property duty
421,234
3
8
208,669
13
0
206,066
2
2
92,615
18
10
928,585
17
8
Wines, anno 1804
79,920
3
0
51,895
0
0
81,143
0
0
51,7
0
0
264,743
0
0
Property duty
335,483
0
0
1,044,234
17
10
1,186,365
15
8½
712,102
14
7
3,278,186
8
1½
Goods and wares
110,281
19
11¼
231,711
0
6
319,790
0
0
167,076
1
4
828,859
1
10½
Property duty, anno 1805
-
-
-
-
-
-
106,950
0
0
92,800
0
0
199,750
0
0
£.
2,234,959
0
9¼
3,532,838
17
1
4,494,169
10
2
2,909,531
14
2
13,171,499
2
4
Exchequer, the 25th Day of February, 1806.
WM. ROSE HAWORTH.
xv
An ACCOUNT of the Value of all IMPORTS into, and all EXPORTS from GREAT BRITAIN, for Eighteen Years, ending the 5th January 1806; distinguishing each Year, and distinguishing the Value of Imports from the East Indies and China, from the Value of all other Imports: And distinguishing the Value of British Produce and Manufactures Exported, from the Value of Foreign Articles Exported; together with the Difference between the Official Value, and the Declared Value of British Produce and Manufactures Exported in the Year ending 5th January 1806.
Official Value of Imports from
Official Value of
East Indies and China.
All other Parts.
British Produce and Manufactures Exported.
Foreign Merchandize Exported, including Over-estimated Value on Coffee.
Foreign Merchandize Exported, after deducting Over-estimated Value on Coffee.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Year ending 5th January 1789
3,453,897
0
0
14,573,272
0
0
12,724,719
0
0
4,747,518
0
0
4,517,766
0
0
Ditto 1790
3,362,545
0
0
14,458,557
0
0
13,779,506
0
0
5,561,042
0
0
5,379,965
0
0
Ditto 1791
3,149,870
0
0
15,981,015
0
0
14,921,084
0
0
5,199,037
0
0
4,979,797
0
0
Ditto 1792
3,698,713
0
0
15,971,069
0
0
16,810,018
0
0
5,921,976
0
0
5,670,412
0
0
Ditto 1793
2,701,547
0
0
16,957,810
0
0
18,336,851
0
0
6,568,348
0
0
6,129,998
0
0
Ditto 1794
3,499,023
0
0
15,757,693
0
0
13,892,268
0
0
6,467,911
0
0
5,784,417
0
0
Ditto 1795
4,458,475
0
0
17,830,418
0
0
16,725,402
0
0
10,022,680
0
0
8,386,043
0
0
Ditto 1796
5,760,810
0
0
16,976,079
0
0
16,338,213
0
0
10,785,125
0
0
8,509,126
0
0
Ditto 1797
3,372,689
0
0
19,814,630
0
0
19,102,220
0
0
11,416,693
0
0
8,923,848
0
0
Ditto 1798
3,942,384
0
0
17,071,572
0
0
16,903,103
0
0
12,013,907
0
0
9,412,610
0
0
Ditto 1799
7,626,930
0
0
20,230,959
0
0
19,672,503
0
0
13,919,274
0
0
10,617,526
0
0
Ditto 1800
4,284,805
0
0
22,552,626
0
0
24,084,213
0
0
11,907,116
0
0
9,556,144
0
0
Ditto 1801
4,942,275
0
0
25,628,329
0
0
24,304,283
0
0
18,847,735
0
0
13,815,837
0
0
Ditto 1802
5,424,441
0
0
27,371,115
0
0
25,699,809
0
0
16,601,892
0
0
12,087,047
0
0
Ditto 1803
5,794,906
0
0
25,647,412
0
0
26,993,129
0
0
19,127,833
0
0
14,418,837
0
0
Ditto 1804
6,348,887
0
0
21,643,577
0
0
22,252,027
0
0
11,540,359
0
0
9,326,468
0
0
Ditto 1805
5,214,621
0
0
23,986,869
0
0
23,935,793
0
0
13,532,306
0
0
10,515,574
0
0
Ditto 1806
-
-
-
24,273,451
0
0
25,003,308
0
0
12,227,237
0
0
9,950,508
0
0
Inspector-General's Office, Custom-House, London, 22nd March, 1806.
WILLIAM IRVING.
Note.—The real Value of British Produce and Manufactures Exported in as far as the same can be ascertained under the Ad Valorem Duties, or computed at the Average Prices Current, amounted, in the Year ending the 5th January 1805, to
£
And in the Year ending the 5th January 1806, to
£.
The Account of Imports from India and China for the last Year, cannot yet be prepared.
An ACCOUNT of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their TONNAGE, which have been Annually Built and Registered in the several Ports of the British Empire, between the 5th January 1804, and the 5th January 1806.
Ships.
Tons.
being the Account
In the Year 1804
delivered last Year,
991
95,979
and now correct
In the Year 1805
966
89,975
Copies of the Certificates of Registry granted at many of the Ports in the Plantations, for the Year ending 5th January 1806, not being yet received, the Vessels that may have been built at such Ports are not included in this Account.
Custom-House, London, Office of the Register-General of Shipping, Register-General of Shipping. 20th March 1806.
T. E. W. WILLOUGHBY, Register-General of Shipping.
xvii
Account of the PUBLIC EXPENDITURE of Great Britain, for the Year ended 5th January 1806.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
I.
Interest & Charges on the permanent Debt of Great Britain, Appx. (A.)
-
-
-
-
-
-
27,485,384
18
7
II.
The Interest on Exchequer Bills, (B.)
-
-
-
-
-
-
1,478,316
3
3½
III.
The Civil List, (C.)
-
-
-
958,000
0
0
IV.
Other Charges on the Consolidated Fund, viz.
Courts of Justice
-
-
-
59,350
17
3
Mint
-
-
-
14,686
10
6
Allow. to Roy. Allowances
-
-
-
278,281
0
4½
Sals. & Allowances
-
-
-
25,282
9
6
Bounties
-
-
-
491,583
12
11
1,827,184
10
6½
V.
Civil Government of Scotland, (D.)
-
-
-
-
-
-
86,918
15
3¾
VI.
Other Payments in Anticipation, (E.) Bounties for Fisheries, Manufactures, Corn, &c.
-
-
-
313,156
19
8¼
Pensions on the Heredit. Revenue
-
-
-
27,700
0
0
Militia and Deserters Warrants, &c.
-
-
-
305,143
14
10¾
646,000
14
7
VII.
Navy. (F.)—Salaries to the Offices
94,000
0
0
For Wages, Bounty, Flag-pay, Half-pay, and Pensions
2,329,830
0
0
For Dock Yards, Building of Ships, Stores, Pilotage, &c.
6,491,428
9
2½
For Marine Service on Shore
403,500
0
0
9,318,758
9
2½
The Victualling Department
-
-
-
3,894,773
11
3
Sick and Wounded do.
-
-
-
263,000
0
0
Transport do. for Transports
889,466
3
0
For Prisoners of War in health
57,000
0
0
Miscellaneous Services
44,000
0
0
990,466
3
0
14,466,998
3
5½
VIII.
Ordnance, (G.)
-
-
-
-
-
-
4,732,286
1
3
IX.
Army, (H.)—Ordinary Services, Viz. For Regulars, Fenc. Milit. Invalids, and Volunteer Corps
8,978,979
13
1
Barracks
1,083,224
17
3
Staff Officers & Offic. of Garrisons
183,708
3
5
Half-pay
211,560
4
9
Widows Pensions
26,000
0
0
Chelsea Hospital
123,145
8
1
Exchequer Fees
88,501
5
9
Pay of Public Offices
63,223
0
7
10,758,342
12
11
Extraordinary Services (including Remittances by way of Subsidy)
-
-
-
6,261,386
16
2
17,019,729
9
1
X.
Loans, Remittances, and Advances to other Countries, Ireland, (I.)
-
-
-
-
-
-
3,211,062
10
0
XI.
Miscellaneous Services, (K.)
At Home
-
-
-
2,566,091
19
6
Abroad
-
-
-
279,636
8
5½
2,845,728
7
11½
73,799,609
14
0¾
Deduct Loan, &c. for Ireland
3,211,062
10
0
£.*
70,588,547
4
0¾
*
£.
Whitehall. Treasury Chambers, 24th March 1806.
N. VANSITTART.
N.B. The several Items under each head are stated in the Appendixes A, B, &c. above referred to—which follow.
xix
APPENDIX (A. 1.)—An Account of the Monies paid out of the Receipt of His Majesty's Exchequer, in the Year ending the 5th Jan. 1806, towards satisfying the Charges of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT of Great Britain and Ireland, and Imperial Loans; distinguishing the Total Amount of the Sums applied for Interest, Charges of Management, Sums applicable to the Reduction, and the usual Grants for the same Purpose.
INTEREST.
Annuities for Lives, and for Terms of Years.
Charges of Management.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Permanent Funded Debt of Great Britain
16,534,351
19
11
1,571,031
19
4½
250,755
0
3½
Loans raised for the Service of Ireland
1,015,957
19
6
38,595
16
8
15,428
10
8
Imperial Loans
208,368
3
6
230,000
0
0
5,728
0
10¼
17,758,678
2
11
1,839,627
16
0½
271,911
11
9¾
1,839,627
16
0½
271,911
11
9¾
£.
19,870,217
10
9¼
Towards the Reduction of the Public Debt; viz;
£.
s.
d.
Annual Issue by 26 G. III.
1,000,000
0
0
Ditto 42 do
200,000
0
0
Annuities for Terms of Years expired, prior to 5th July, 1802
79,880
14
6
Annuities for Lives on which the Nominees are certified to have died prior to 5th July 1802, or that have been unclaimed for 3 Years
49,742
10
7
Interest on Debt o Gr-Brit. redeemed
2,794,133
17
8
Dittos Ireland do
70,460
10
6
Dittos Imperial do
16,710
16
6
Annuity at £. 1 per cent. on Part of Capitals created since 5th Jan. 1793
3,404,238
18
0¾
7,615,167
7
9¾
Exchequer, 6th March 1806.
£.
27,485,384
18
7
W. ROSE HAWORTH.
APPENDIX (A.2.)—An Account of the Total Amount of the Sums actually received by the COMMISSIONERS for the Reduction of the NATIONAL DEBT, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1806.
On Account of GREAT BRITAIN.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
By Annual Issue, 26 Geo. III
1,000,000
0
0
Ditto 42—
200,000
0
0
Exchequer Anns. 99 & 96 years, which terms have expired
54,880
14
6
Unclaimed and Expired Anns. on Lives
49,742
10
7
Short Anns. 1777, expired
25,000
0
0
£. 1 per cent. per ann. on Capitals created by Loans raised from 1793 (that of 1802 excepted) to 1805, both inclusive
3,004,321
3
9¾
Interest on £.3 per cent. Annuities
2,682,337
17
8
— on £.4 per cents
104,696
0
0
— on £.5 per cents
7,100
0
0
7,128,078
6
6¾
On Account of IRELAND
£.1 per cent. ann. on Capitals created by Loans raised from 1797 to 1805, both inclusive
363,224
14
3
Interest on £.3 per cent. Anns.
70,460
10
6
433,685
4
9
On account of IMPERIAL.
£. 1 per cent. per ann. on the Capital created by Loan 1797
36,693
0
0
Interest on 3 per cent. Imperial Anns
16,710
16
6
53,403
16
6
Office Reduction National Debt, Feb. 27, 1806.
£.
7,615,167
7
9¾
G. T. GOODENOUGH, Sec.
APPENDIX (B.) will be found in page xxiii.
xxi
APPENDIX (C)—An Account of the Charges upon the CONSOLIDATED FUND, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1806; exclusive of the Interest of the Public Debt, and of the payments upon Exchequer Bills, distinguishing the same under the several Heads of Civil List, Courts of Justice, &c. Mint, other Salaries and Allowances, and Bounties.
CIVIL LIST.
£.
s.
d.
the Conduct of Public Business
£.
s.
d.
For the Support of his Majesty's
in the Military Department
1200
0
0
Household
898,000
0
0
John Williams, Esq. Secretary to
Ditto, by Act 44 Geo. III. cap. 80.
the Commissioners for inquiring
60,0001. per ann.
60,000
0
0
into Abuses in the Naval De-
COURTS OF JUSTICE.
partment
1,000
0
0
The Judges of England and Wales,
PENSIONS.
in augmentation of their Salaries
18,047
19
8½
A. Graham, Esq. Inspector of the
His Royal Highness the Prince of
temporary places of confinement
Wales
65,000
0
0
of Felons, previous to transpor-
Ditto ditto
60,000
0
0
tation
350
0
0
Ditto Duke of York
14,000
0
0
P. Colquhoun, Esq. Receiver ofthe
Ditto Clarence
12,000
0
0
Thames Police Office
7,479
9
4
Ditto Kent
12,000
0
0
W. Baldwin, Esq. Receiver of the
Ditto Cumberland
12,000
0
0
seven Public Offices of Police
15,239
7
4½
Ditto Sussex
12,000
0
0
H. M. Dyer, Esq. Chief Justice
Ditto Cambridge
12,000
0
0
of the Admiralty Court in the
Ditto late Duke of Gloucester
8,500
0
0
Island of Bahama, per Act 43
His Highness the Duke of do
948
9
0 ¾
Geo. III.
2,000
0
0
Her Highness Princess Sophia
J. Bedford, Esq. do. Barbadoes
2,000
0
0
Mary of Ditto
474
4
6¼
J. Sewell, Esq. do at Malta
2,000
0
0
Her R. Highs. the Duchess of York
4,000
0
0
W. Territt, Esq. do. at Bermudas
2,473
8
1
John Duke of Athol
2,216
13
5½
Alex. Croke, Esq. do. Nova Scotia
1,000
0
0
Earl of Chatham
4,000
0
0
H.I. Hinchliffe, Esq. do Jamaica
1,760
12
9
Lord Rodney
2,000
0
0
Sheriffs of England and Wales
4,000
0
0
— Heathfield
1,500
0
0
Keeper of the Hanaper in Chancery
3,000
0
0
Lady Dorchester
1,000
0
0
John Penn, Esq.
3,000
0
0
Richard Penn, Esq.
1,000
0
0
Master of his Majesty's Mint in
Lord St. Vincent
2,000
0
0
England
10,350
0
0
— Duncan
2,000
0
0
T. Morrison, esq. Receiver of the
— Nelson
1,500
0
0
Fees and Emoluments in the
&3x2014; Hutchinson
2,000
0
0
Office of the Mint
3,136
10
6
Lady Abercrombie
2,000
0
0
Master of his Majesty's Mint in
Sir William Henry Ashurst
2,000
0
0
Scotland
1,200
0
0
Sir Sidney Smith
1,000
0
0
Duke of Richmond
12,666
13
4
SALARIES & ALLOWANCES.
Sir John Skinner
375
0
0
The Rt. Hon. C. Abbot, Speaker of
Representatives of Arthur Onslow
3,000
0
0
the House of Commons, to com-
Sir James Saumarez
1,200
0
0
plete his Allowance of 6,000l.
Duke of Portland, for the Prince
per ann.
2,102
15
6
of Orange
16,000
0
0
The Marquis of Bute, late one of
Lord Borringdon and others, in
the Auditors of the Imprest
7,000
0
0
Trust for Lord Amberst
3,000
0
0
P. Deare, Esq. on the yearly Sum
300
0
0
Sir Beaumont Hotham Knight
1,900
0
0
E. Roberts, Esq. on the yearly Sum
BOUNTIES.
of 650l. formerlypaid to the Au-
For the Encouragement of the
ditor of the Exchequer
650
0
0
Growth of Hemp and Flax in
J. T. Batt. Esq. Commissioner for
Scotland
2,956
13
8
auditing the Public Accounts
1000
0
0
Richard Clarke, Esq. Chamberlain
John Martin Leake, Esq. do
500
0
0
of the City of London, for the
John Erskine, Esq. do
500
0
0
better Improvement of the Port
Hon. B. Bouverie do
1,000
0
0
of London
60,000
0
0
Sir C. W. R. Boughton, Bart. do
1,000
0
0
William Stevens, Esq. Treasurer
Salaries in the Office of Clerks of
of the Governors of the Bounty
Public Accounts
6,000
0
0
of Queen Anne, for the Relief
G. Atwood, Esq. late Inspec. of
of such Curates as may be de-
Certif. in Tontine, Anno 1789
400
0
0
prived of their Cures in conse-
George Pepler, Inspector of do.
500
0
0
quence of an Act 43 Geo. III.
500
0
0
Chief Cashier of the Bank of Eng-
Lord Provost of the City of Edin-
land, for Fees paid at sundry
burgh, towards the Completion
Public Offices
872
12
6
of the Wet Docks and other
Do. of South Sea Co. for do
292
1
6
Works in the Harbour of Leith
25,000
0
0
T.'Marsham, Esq. Sec. to Com-
Payments made to the Owners and
missioners for issuing Exche-
Occupiers of the Legal Quays
quer Bills, by Act 35 Geo. III.
1,000
0
0
between London Bridge and the
John Close, Esq. Contingent Ex-
Tower of London, for the pur-
pences attending the execution
chase of their Interest therein
403,126
19
3
of an Act appointing Commis-
sioners to inquire and examine
Exchequer
£
1,827,184
10
6 ½
into the Public Expenditure, and
5th March
W. ROSE HAWORTH.
xxiii
APPENDIX (B.)—An Account of Interest paid on EXCHEQUER BILLS, from the 5th day of January 1805 to the 5th day of January 1806.
under what Acts issued.
on what Funds charged.
£
s
d
43 Geo. III.
cap.36.
Supply Anno
1803
501
9
4
93.
Ditto Ditto
198,372
4
5
146.
Vote of Credit Anno
1803
107,117
13
8½
44
cap. 15.
Aids
1804
327,740
9
9
31.
Further Sum
1804
129,908
8
11½
45.
Supply
1804
362,732
0
5
46.
Do. to the Bank of England
75,000
0
0
73.
Additional Sum
1804
42,518
13
5
81.
Vote of Credit
1804
116,929
4
7
45
align="right">7.
Loan
1805
3,108
1
5½
27.
Aids
1805
5,777
5
7
Paid to the Governor and Company of the Bank of England, on
Personal Estates and Malt Tax
108,610
11
8
Exchequer Bill Office
Jan
£.
1,478,316
3
3½
J. PLANTA.—JOHN PETER
APPENDIX (D.)—A List of all such and Sums of Money as have been incurred, and become due, upon his Majesty's Establishment for CIVIL AFFAIRS within SCOTLAND, bearing Dare the 19th Day of June 1761, for One Year: from 5th January 1805 inclusive to 5th January 1806 exclusive, made up by the Barons of Exchequer at Edinburgh
£
APPENDIX (E. 1.)—An Account of the Amount of BOUNTIES paid in England and Scotland, out of the Revenues of Customs and Excise, between the 5th of Jan. 1805 and the 5th of Jan. 1806; being Payments in the Nature of Anticipations of Exchequer Issues.
CUSTOMS.
ENGLAND.
SCOTLAND.
GREAT BRITAIN.
Bounties on Corn, Cotton, and Linen Manufac-
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Newfoundland and White Herring Fishery
217,293
3
7¼
52,617
1
5¾
269,915
5
1
Bounties on Beer exported
30,321
11
5
12,920
3
2¼
43,241
14
7¼
British Spirits
Fish
Buss and Barrel Bounties, certified on the Excise,
for Deficiency of Money in the hands of the
Receiver Gen. of the Customs
£.
247,619
15
0¼
65,537
4
8
513,156
19
8¼
APPENDIX (E. 2.)—GENERAL POST OFFICE.—An Account of Pensions and Parliamentary
GRANTS for the Year ended 5th January 1806.
His Grace the Duke of Marlborough
£
His Grace the Duke of Grafton
4,700
The heirs of the late Duke of Schomburg
4,000
March
th 1806.
£
APPENDIX (E. 3.) EXCISE.—An Account, shewing how the PUBLIC MONIES remaining in the Receipt of the Exchequer on 5th Jan. 1805, together with the Monies paid into the same during the Year ending 5th Jan, 1806, and the Monies paid out of the Net Produce of the Revenues of the said Year, in Anticipation of the Exchequer Receipt, have been actually applied, so far as regards the Receipt of the Excise in England, and can be ascertained at the Excise Office.
PENSIONS, viz
£
s
d
£
s
d
6th Head
Duke of Grafton
9,000
0
0
Earl Cowper
2,000
0
0
Charles Boon, Esq. Moiety of the Earl of Bath's
1,500
0
0
Lord Melbourne's ditto
1,500
0
0
14,000
0
0
BOUNTIES, viz.
Beer exported
33
6
0
British Spirits
49
12
10
Salted Provisions
30,238
12
7
30,321
11
5
Excise Office, London, 4th March,
J. KEMP, Accompt. General.
£
44,321
11
5
xxv
APPENDIX (E. 4.)—An Account of Sums advanced by Receivers General of Land and Assessed Taxes, on Account of MILITIA, Deserters Warrants, and others Disbursements, under various Acts of Parliament; between 5th Jan. 1805 and the 5th of Jan 1806.
ENGLAND.
SCOTLAND.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Militia and Deserters Warrants
17,587
14
11¾
6,849
18
3
Defence Acts
12,781
11
6½
1,039
18
1½
Yeomanry Cavalry
2,658
12
6
545
6
0
Volunteers
166,493
0
1½
29,244
4
7
Levy en Masse
1,215
18
10
155
11
6
Army of Reserve
53,271
7
10
2,457
19
1
Population Act
395
12
8
39
18
0
Expences under the Land Tax
10,407
0
0
Redemption Acts
Office for Taxes, 20th March
£
264,810
19
4¾
40,332
15
6⅛
APPENDIX (F.)—Navy Office, 4th Feb. 1806. An Account, shewing the Amount of Monies received from his Majesty's Exchequer, for NAVAL SERVICES, between the 5th Jan. 1805, and 5th Jan. 1806; distinguishing the Services to which the same has been applied.
HEALS OF SERVICE.
SUM.
TOTAL
NAVY
£.
s
d
£
s
d
Salaries to the Admiralty, Navy, and Navy Pay Offices
94,000
0
0
Wages to Officers and Seamen
1,660,000
0
0
Bounty to Volunteers, Flag Pay, &c.
385,000
0
0
Half Pay to Sea Officers, and Bounty to Chaplains
191,830
0
0
Pensions to Sea Officers, their Widows, &c. and to superan-
93,000
0
0
nuated Artificers
Wages to His Majesty's Lock and Rope Yards
923,152
0
0
Building of Ships, purchase of Stores of every Description,
4,582,276
9
2½
repairing of ships, purchase of Ships taken from the Enemy,
Head Money, &c. paid in Bills at Ninety Days Date
Pilotage
35,000
0
0
Bills of Exchange, imprests, and Contingencies
942,000
0
0
Exchequer Fees
9,000
0
0
Marine Service on Shore, and Half Pay to Marine Officers
403,500
0
0
9,318,758
9
2½
VICTUALLING.
Provisions and all sorts of Victualling Stores, paid for in Bills
3,026,824
7
3
at Ninety Days Date
Bills of Exchange and Imprest
605,000
0
0
Necessary and Extra Necessary Money, and Contingencies
109,000
0
0
Widows Pensions
16,934
3
10
Supplies to the poor Inhabitants of Orkney and Shetland
11,715
0
2
Yards
125,300
0
0
3,894,773
11
0
SICK AND WOUNDED.
Subsistence, Medicine, Bedding, &c. for Sick Seamen
226,600
0
0
Do for Prisoners of War
37,000
0
0
263,000
0
0
TRANSPORTS
Freight of Transports, and for Stores, Subsistence, &c. for
889,466
3
0
Prisoners of War in Health, paid for in Bills of Ninety
Days Date
Bills of Exchange, &c.
44,000
0
0
Subsistence and Clothing, &c. of Prisoners of War in Health,
57,000
0
0
paid for in Ready Money
(
Signed
990,466
0
0
S. Gambier, …. F. J. Hartwell. …. E. Bouverie.
£.
14,466,998
3
5½
xxvii
APPENDIX (G.)—An Account of Monies paid by the Office of ORDNANCE, in the Year 1805,
£
s
d
Services at-Home
4,425,072
14
1
Services Abroad
307,213
7
2
Office of Ordnance
22th March
(
Singed
£
4,732,286
1
3
Tho. Trigge, J. Hadden, J. Calcraft.
APPENDIX (H.)—An Account of Monies paid by the Right Hon. the Payments Gen. of his
£
s
d
Pay Allowances of the Forces, &c. Captains Allowances, Off-
8,978,979
13
1
reckonings, Recruiting Contingencies, Bills, and Clothing
Exchequer Fees
88,501
5
9
Garrisons
22,384
0
8
Pay of Officers
63,223
0
7
Staff
161,324
2
9
Barracks
1,083,224
17
3
Half Pay
211,560
4
9
Widows Pensions
26,000
0
0
Chelsea Hospital
123,145
8
1
Extraordinaries
6,261,386
16
2
£
17,019,729
9
1
Pay Office, Horse Guards
(
Errors excepted.
15
th March
(Signed) Dd. Thomas, Accountant.
APPENDIX (I.)—An Account of LOANS, REMITTANCES, and ADVANCES to other Counties, in
There was remitted out of Supplies 1800–, to that Part of the United Kingdom called Ireland, viz.
£
s
d
Out of Loan 1804, per Act 44 Geo. III. Cap.47.
806,500
0
0
Out of Lotteries 1804, per Ditto Cap. 93.
105,083
6
8
911,583
6
8
Out of Loan 1805, per Act 45 Geo. III. Cap. 12.
2,240,000
0
0
Out of Lotteries 1805, per Do. Cap. 74
59,479
3
4
2,299,479
3
4
£
3,211,062
10
0
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers,
(Signed)
N. VANSITTART.
24th March 1805.
Mem.
The Amount of Remittances and other Payments by way of Subsidy to Foreign
£
s
d
xxix
APPENDIX (K.)—An Account, shewing how the Monies remaining in the Receipt of the EXCHEQUER on the 5th Day of Jan. 1805, together with the Monies paid into the same during the Year ending the 5th of Jan. 1806, have been actually applied; so far as relates to MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES; specifying the Amount of Monies paid for Services at Home and Abroad respectively.
SERVICES AT HOME.
£.
s.
d.
For Bounties on taking and bringing Fish to the Cities of London and Westminster, and other Places in the United Kingdom
3,000
0
0
For the Relief of certain St. Domingo Sufferers
10,000
0
0
For defraying the Charge of Works, and Repairs of the Roads and Bridges, in the Highlands of Scotland, for 1803/4
20,000
0
0
To make good Deficiency of Grants for the Service of the Year 1802
4,697
8
0
Towards the Support of an Institution called the Veterinary College, for 1804
1,500
0
0
For the Royal Military Asylum at Chelsea, for 1804/5
22,500
0
0
For printing the 57th Volume of Journals House of Commons
2,500
0
0
To Sheriffs, for Conviction of Felons and Overpayments
4,194
9
8 ¼
Expences, in 1803, under the Commission for publishing the Records of the Kingdom
1,767
15
10
For defraying the Charge of the Superintendence of Aliens
4,589
5
0
Extraor, Expences of Prosecutions relating to the Coin of this Kingdom, in 1804/5
2,100
0
0
Towards making an Inland Navigation from the Eastern to the Western Sea, 1804/5
50,000
0
0
For Works done at the two Houses of Parliament and at the House of the Speaker, between the 31st May 1803 and 24th April 1804
12,345
0
0
For confining, maintaining, and employing Convicts at Home, 1804/5
49,660
19
8 ½
To be distributed to the Officers, Seamen, and Marines, on board the Fleet under the Command of Samuel Lord Viscount Hood, in part of £.265,336. 14. 10 ½, being the estimated Value of the Ships and Vessels taken possession of and armed for His Majesty's Service at Toulon, with their Ordnance and Ordnance Stores
240,000
0
0
For completing the Works carrying on at Chetney Hill, in the County of Kent
20,000
0
0
For the Relief of the distressed Inhabitants of the Island of Shetland
6,919
2
4
Do Do Do Orkney
4,795
17
10
For the Works and Repairs of the Military Roads in North Britain
5,000
0
0
To defray Bills of the Usher of the Court of Exchequer for Stationary, &c. for 1804/5
1,875
1
7
For Printing and Stationary of the Two Honses of Parliament, for 1804/5
17,389
18
11
Towards defraying the Expence of the Public Office, Bow Street, 1804/5
12,115
5
3
Protestant Dissenting Ministers in England and Ireland, and for the Relief of the poor French Protestant Clergy and Laity, for 1804/5
10,476
1
0
For the extra Charge of Messengers of the Three Secretaries of State, 1804/5
6,631
2
11 ¼
For Do. of contingencies Do.
5,490
0
0
For the Ministers for the Vaudois Churches, for 1804/5
1,828
2
8
For the discharging Arrears and Debts due and owing upon the Civil List, 5th July 1804
10,458
1
6 ¾
For the Purchase of Ground and Buildings for erecting a Court House for Westminster
3,391
4
0
Do. Do. Do.
4,417
12
10
For Deficiency of Grant 1804 for the Officers of the Houses of Lords and Commons
305
0
0
For Sums awarded to be paid under the 7th Article of the Treaty with America
414,000
0
0
For an Advance to the Proprietors of the Crinan Canal
25,000
0
0
For defraying Law Charges
20,000
0
0
To the Trustees of the British Museum
3,000
0
0
Ditto further Grant
8,000
0
0
For the Collection of Sculptured Marbles, &c. of the late C. Townley, Esq.
20,000
0
0
For the Moiety of the Expence of building a Bridge over the River Spey at Fochabers in North Britain
6,000
0
0
For the Purchase of a House for the Official Use of the Judge Advocate General
9,685
17
0
To the E. I. Company, for Expences incurred by them in the Service of the Public
1,000,000
0
0
Towards rebuilding the Pier at the Harbour of Methil, in Fifeshire
2,000
0
0
For cleansing the Harbour of Catwater and Sutton Pool
4,000
0
0
For the Board of Agriculture
3,000
0
0
For purchacing Ground and erecting Buildings for a Naval Asylum, and for the Maintenance thereof
20,000
0
0
For the French Clergy and Laity; Toulonese, Corsican, and Dutch Emigrants; and American Loyalists
136,521
12
0
Printing Journals, and printing and delivering Votes, &c. of the House of Commons
17,381
9
0
For reprinting Journals, Indexes, and Reports of Do
9,055
9
3
To be paid to the Officers of the Houses of Lords and Commons
4,765
3
9 ½
To the Bank of England, for Discount on Prompt Payments of Loan
£.
222,851
12
6
To Do for receiving the above Loan
11,683
19
7
To Do for receiving Contributions of Lotteries 1804/5
4,000
0
0
To Do for Discount on Prompt Payments thereon in 1804/5
4,589
11
2
To Do for receiving Loan of £. 1,005,290 0 2 for paying off Loyalty £.5 per Cents. 1797 at 5th April 1805
810
1
1
For Salaries to the Officers, and Incidental Expences of the Commissioners for reducing the National Debt
2,019
8
0
xxxi
To the Officers of the Exchequer, for extra Trouble in making out Excheq. Bills in 1805
£. 500
0
0
Do Do paying off Do in 1804
347
10
0
To William Young, Esq; for Expences attending the execution of an Act for the Redemption of the Land Tax
1,741
6
8
For Salaries and Expences of American Commissioners
1,300
0
0
For a Clerk employed on Business relative to American Claims
174
14
0
To the Commissioners, for preparing and drawing Lotteries 1803/4/5
15,300
0
0
To David Skene, Esq. for Incidental Expences of the Act for distributing Monies stipulated to be paid by the United States of America
990
0
0
To replace to His Majesty's Civil List Revenues the Sums insued thereout, pursuant to Address of the House of Commns; viz.
To H. Alexander, Esq; as Chairman of the Committee of Ways & Means, Sess. 1803/4
1,300
1
6
To George Whittam, Esq; for making an Index to the Votes in Session 1803/4
310
0
0
To the Second Clerk Assistant of the House of Commons, in Session, 1803/4
1,084
19
6
To the Clerk Assistant of the House of Commons. in Do
1,187
12
10
To the Deputy Scrieant at Arms of Do, to make up his Allowance equal to £. 500, for the Session 1803/4
362
0
0
For the Institution for preventing the spreading of Contagious Maligant Fevers in the Metropolis
3,000
0
0
For Compensations to Officers of the House of Commons for their Attendance on Public Committees in Session 1803/4
280
8
0
For the last Instalment for erecting a Monument to the Memory of Captain Montague
1,297
2
6
For Rewards to Persons employed under the Commissioners for carrying into execution the Measures recommended by the Ho. of Com. respecting the Public Records
3,394
17
10
For the Second Instalment for erecting a Monument to the memory of the Rt. hon. Sir Ralph Abercromby
2,216
19
0
To make good to His Majesty's Civil List Revenues Monies issued thereout, for Public Services; viz.
For additional Allowance to Clerks in the Office for auditing the Public Accounts
10,892
6
1
For Expences attending, the Malt and Barley Committees of the House of Lords
260
0
0
For Contingent Expences in the execution of an Act for inquiring into Naval Abuses
2,331
12
0
For Expences attending the digesting and abstracting Poor Returns
810
7
0 ½
To the Chairman of the Committee of the house of Peers, for his Attendance in Session 1803/4
2,698
6
6
To John Clementson, for One Year's Rent of a House in lieu of Apartments he resigned at the House of Commons
219
6
0
Expences of a Plan for the more perfect Security of Shipping in the Port of London
974
4
0
Towards Expences of an Index to One Volume of Journals of the House of Lords
559
19
6
Ditto the Indexto Journals of the House of Lords, for Seven Years, to 1st July 1801
1,428
3
0
For Stationary provided for New South Wales
72
16
6 ½
For Mathematical Instruments for Do
233
12
0
To pay Bills drawn from Do
2,693
15
0
For a framed Room for Do
172
13
0
For Expences at the Parliament Office, in Session 1803/4
416
2
4
Arrears of Salary to Persons on the Civil Establishment of New Brunswick
4,905
4
2 ¾
For making a further Provision for the Presbyterian Ministers of Ulster and Munster
8,751
18
6
To Dr. Clarke, for his Trouble and Attendance relative to an Act for enforcing the Residence of the Clergy
547
7
6
To Dr. Layard, for his Services relative to a Distemper among the Horned Cattle
116
9
0
For Deficiency of Grant for Expences of Public Office Bow Street, 1804
305
17
4
For Expences of a Plan for the Establishment of a Horse Patrol for the Public Roads leading to the Metropolis
1,595
19
6
For the Relief of British Subjects detained in France
1,509
2
0
For making and publishing Weekly Returns of the Average Price of Sugar
435
0
0
For Deficiency of Grant to the Deputy Serjeant at Arms of the House of Commons, for Disbursements in Session 1803/4
213
8
7
To pay Fees on passing Public Accounts
3,000
0
0
For Models of Arches of Bridges, for the Use of a Committee of the Ho. of Commons
135
6
0
For Fees on Taillies levied on several Aids granted by Parliament
1,113
9
6
SERVICES ABROAD.
For His Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services, 1804/5
172,830
4
6
For repairing and maintaining British Forts and Settlements on the Coast of Africa
18,000
0
0
For Expences of Mission for making Discoveries in Africa
2,053
19
9
To pay Bills drawn from New South Wales
18,147
0
0
For the Civil Establishment of
Bermuda 1804/5
870
0
0
Bahama Islands
4,438
12
7
St. John's
3,100
0
0
Dominica
600
0
0
New S. Wales
7,225
12
6
New foundland
2,136
12
10
Upper Canada
8,379
6
3 ½
Nova Scotia
7,165
0
0
Sierra Leone
28,000
0
0
68,605
4
2 ½
Cape Breton
2,040
0
0
New Brunswick
4,650
0
0
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers,
(Signed)
N. FANSITTART.
2,845,728
7
11 ½
xxxiii
An Account of the UNFUNDED DEBT and Demands outstanding on 5th January 1806; under the Heads of Exchequer, Treasury, Army, Barracks, Ordnance, Navy, Civil List Advances, and any other Head of Public Service; specifying the same: Distinguishing, under each Head respectively, the Particulars of which such Debt or Demands consisted; and also what Part of the said Debt or Demands was then provided for, and in what Manner; and what Part thereof was unprovided for.
EXCHEQUER BILLS:
Under what Acts issued
On what Funds charged.
Amount outstanding
£.
s
d
39th Geo. III.
CAP. 28.
Aids, Anno 1806
Extension of Bank Charter
3,000,000
0
0
44
Cap. 16
Malt Tax
1804
341,000
0
0
45
Cap.1
Malt Tax
1805
750,000
0
0
27,180,400
0
0
TREASURY:
Miscellaneous Services
275,510
19
4
Warrants for Army Services
327,781
11
7¾
Treasury Bills accepted previous to and on 5th January 1806, due subsequent to that Day
530,783
8
7¼
1,134,075
19
7
ARMY:
Ordinary Services
926,179
1
3
Extra ordinaries
Nil.
926,179
1
3
Barracks
624,240
7
3
Ordnance
1,104,512
6
3
Navy
5,911,588
7
7¾
Civil List Advances
43,696
16
2
£
18
1¾
Whitehall, Treasury-Chambers,
N. VANSITTART.
An Account of Notes of the BANK OF ENGLAND
£
An Account of NOTES of the BANK of IRELAND
£
Amount of Bank of England Notes of
£
£
s
d
£
1805.
February 1
13,671,400
1805.
Value of
£
1,602,382
15
2
May 1
12,786,770
Ditto below
£
1,288,325
10
3
August 1
12,035,240
1st May
2,890,708
5
5
November 1
12,296,000
Value of
£
1,465,882
12
9½
1806.
February 1
12,856,720
Ditto below
£
1,054,859
7
7½
Amount of Bank of England Notes of
£
£
1st August
2,520,682
0
5
1805
February 1
£
Value of
£
1,558,444
16
5
4,580,970
Ditto below
£
903,453
2
10½
4,413,780
1st November
2,461,897
19
3½
4,457,490
Value of
£
1,676,118
11
2½
4,436,850
1806
1st February
2,487,573
1
11½
Bank of England,
W HUTCHISON,
For the Gov. and Co. of the Bank of Ireland, Dublin, 20th May 1806.
WILLIAM DONLEVY,
xxxv
An Account of the Progress made in the REDEMPTION of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT Funds, and specifying how much of each has been redeemed by the Commissioners Stocks; and the Sums annually applicable to the Reduction thereof; likewise, the Account of Land-Tax redeemed.
Funds
Capitals.
Redeemed by Commissrs. from 1st Aug. 1786 to 1st Feb. 1806.
Total Sums paid.
£
s
d
£
£
s
d
Consolidated 3 per Cent. Annuities
366,196,558
4
5¼
39,922,421
24,361,824
16
8
Reduced Ditto
138,264,044
7
10
51,493,981
31,080,806
19
5
Old South-Sea Annuities
24,065,084
13
11½
3,492,000
2,492,458
18
9
2,783,000
1,990,823
4
3
3 per Cent. - Ditto - Anno 1751
1,919,600
0
0
695,000
511,468
0
0
530,445,287
6
2¾
98,386,402
60,437,381
19
1
Consolidated 4 per Cent. Annuities
49,425,084
17
2
2,617,400
2,278,402
1
3
Ditto - 5 per Cent. Ditto
44,809,542
1
8
142,000
126,998
7
6
5 per Cent. Annuities, 1726
3,385,389
7
0
3 per Cent. Ditto 1726
1,000,000
0
0
Ditto - Bank Annuities
11,686,800
0
0
640,752,103
12
0¾
101,145,802
62,842,782
7
10
Transferred to the Commissrs. by reason of Land
22,325,740
5
9
Debt existing 1st Feb 1806
618,426,363
6
3¾
Redeemed by the Commissioners
101,145,802
0
0
Debt unredeemed, at 1st Feb. 1806
£
6
3¾
An Account of the Progress made in the REDEMPTION of the PUBLIC DEBT of IRELAND,
Funds.
Capitals.
Redeemed by the Commissrs. to 1st Feb. 1806
Total Sums Paid.
Average Price of Stocks.
Sums Annually applicable to Reduction of Debt.
£
£
£
s
d
£
s
d
3 per Ct. Consol. Ann.
24,429,250
1,370,579
831,381
12
8
60⅝
1 per Cent. on
392,118
19
8
Reduced ditto
13,153,750
1,543,369
915,742
2
3
59½
37,738,000
2,913,948
1,747,123
14
11
60
Divided on
£
87,418
8
9
4 per Ct. Consol. ditto
300,000
5 ditto ditto ditto
360,000
37,398,000
Redeemed by Commissioners
2,913,948
Unredeemed. Feb.1,1806
35,484,052
£
8
0
Exchequer,
W M. ROSE HAWORTH.
xxxvii
of GREAT BRITAIN, at 1st February 1806; distinguishing the Capitals of the several for the Reduction of the National Debt since 1st August 1786; the Average Price of Annuities to fall in: also, the Capital of Debt transferred to the said Commissioners on
Average Price of Stocks.
Sums Annually applicable to the Reduction of the National Debt.
Annuities Fallen in since 22nd June 1802, or that will fall in hereafter.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
61
Annual Charge, by Act 26 Geo. III
1,000,000
0
0
Exch. Ann. 2et 3 Annæ, viz. Expired at 5th Apr. 1803
23,369
13
4
60 ⅜
Ditto, 42 ditto
200,000
0
0
Ditto
Jan. 1805
7,030
6
8
71 ⅜
Annuities for 99 and 96 Year, expired 1792
54,880
14
6
Ditto 4 Annæ, exp. Ap. 5, 1805
23,254
11
6
Ditto 5 ditto
ditto 1806
7,776
10
0
Ditto 6 ditto
ditto 1807
4,740
10
0
71 ⅜
Annuities for 10 Years, expired 1787
25,000
0
0
Ditto ditto
July 5, 1807
10,181
0
0
73 ½
Life Annuities unclaimed for 3 Years, or of which the Nominees died prior to 5th July, 1802
50,308
5
7
Bank Long Ann. expired 1860 Ditto Short ditto 1808
1,047,494
5
4 ½
N.B. By an Act 42 Geo. III. Cap. 71, such Annuities as fall in after passing that Act, are not to be placed to the Account of the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt; but are no longer to be continued in the Annual Charge thereof.
418,333
0
11
87
Dividend on £.98,386,402, at 3 per Cent.
2,951,592
1
2
89 ⅜
Ditto on £.2,617,400, at 4 per Cent.
104,696
0
0
Ditto on £.142,000 Navy, at 5 per Cent.
7,100
0
0
62
Annuity at 1 per Cent. on Part of Capitals created since 1st Feb. 1793
3,202,672
1
10
7,596,249
3
1
Ann Account of the Progress made in the REDEMPTION of the IMPERIAL DEBT, at 1st February 1806.
Funds.
Capitals.
Redeemed by the Commissrs. at 1st Feb. 1806.
Total Sums Paid.
Average Price of Stocks.
Sums Annually applicable to the Reduction of Debt.
£
£
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
Imperial 3 per Cent. Annuities
3,669,300
1 per Cent. on Capital created
36,693
0
0
642,249
369,998
17
5
57 ⅝
Redeemed by the Commissioners
642,249
Dividend on £.642,249, at 3 per Ct. Annuities
19,267
9
4
Unredeemed at 1st Feb. 1806
3,027,051
55,960
9
4
Office for Reduction of National Debt, the 18th Day of March 1806.
G. T. GOODENOUG
xxxix
Abstract Statement of the PUBLIC INCOME of IRELAND,
Ordinary Revenues.
Gross Receipt within the Year.
Total Receipt to be accounted for.
Re-Payments, Drawbacks, Discounts, &c.
Charges of Management.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
1989684
17
9 ¼
4506077
18
4 ¼
239707
7
11
350476
13
8
Excise
1514211
16
3 ¼
Stamps
501943
9
10 ¼
615591
1
7 ¾
9582
10
11
25119
11
6 ½
Post-Office
146682
13
6 ½
166807
15
0
17779
18
0
75872
11
3 ½
Poundage Fees
27280
10
4 ½
27280
10
4 ½
Pells Fees
5456
1
6 ¼
5456
1
6 ¼
Duty on Wrought Plate
5096
11
10
5096
11
10
Casualties
3559
15
10
3559
15
10
Total Ordinary Revenues
4193915
16
11 ⅞
5329869
14
7 ¼
267069
16
10
451468
16
6
Extraordinary Resources.
Public Coal Yards
250
0
0
250
0
0
Gain by Exchange on Sums received by Great Britain
51390
12
1 ½
51390
12
1 ½
Commissioners of the Navy, on Account of Advances by Collectors in Ireland, for Seamen's Wages, &c.
43114
19
9
43114
19
9
From Great Britain, on Account of the Profit of the Lotteries for 1804 and 1805
179133
13
7
179133
13
7
Other Monies paid to the Public
19473
16
0
19473
16
0
From several County Treasurers, paid to several Revenue Collectors, on Account of Advances made by the Treasury for enrolling the Militia
21096
4
4 ½
21096
4
4 ½
From several County Treasurers, paid to several Revenue Collectors, on Account of Deficiencies in the Army of Reserve
4636
17
2
4636
17
2
Appropriated Duties for Local Objects.
Linen Manufacture
2354
17
2
3439
13
9 ½
874
2
5
Improvement of Dublin
9355
19
2
11549
5
0
6
5
0
Repairs of the Royal Exchange and Commercial Buildings
1468
7
6
1727
12
2
Lagan Navigation
2439
13
11 ½
2787
13
8 ½
896
10
8
77
3
0 ½
Total, independent of the Loans
4528630
17
9 ⅜
5668470
2
3 ¼
268846
14
11
451545
19
6 ½
Loans paid into the Exchequer in the Year ended the 5th of January 1806
941284
0
2 ½
4941284
0
2 ½
Grand Total
9469914
13
11 ⅞
10609754
2
5
268846
14
11
451545
19
6 ½
NOTES.
Rates of Collecting, per Cent.
Gross Rev.
Net Rev.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs and Excise
10
0
0 ½
12
0
6
Stamps
5
0
1
5
7
6 ¼
Post Office
51
14
5 ⅞
143
1
4
The Appropriated Balances in the Exchequer, on the 5th of January 1805, amounted to
£13621
15
11
278241
0
1 ¾
The Unappropriated Balances in the Exchequer, on the 5th of January 1805, amounted to
264619
4
2 ½
(S.)
The Appropriated Balances in the Exchequer, on the 5th of January 1806, amounted to
7469
14
9
The Unappropriated Balances in the Exchequer, on the 5th of January 1806, amounted to
270715
3
10 ½
278184
18
7 ½
xli
for the Year ended the 5th of January 1806.
Total Payments out of the Gross Revenue.
Net Produce, applicable to National Objects and to Payments into the Exchequer.
Payments on Account of Militia, Deserters, Straggling Seamen, Army of Reserve, &c.
Bounties for promoting Linen Manufacture, Fisheries, &c.
Total Payments out of the Net Produce.
Payments into the Exchequer.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
590194
1
7
3915893
16
9 ¼
65792
8
10
28022
1
9 ½
93814
10
7 ½
2807219
3
3
34702
2
5 ½
580888
19
2 ¼
456535
11
4 ¼
93652
9
3 ½
73155
5
9
58988
17
3
27280
10
4 ½
27280
10
4 ½
5456
1
6 ¼
5456
1
6 ¼
5096
11
10
5096
11
10
3559
15
10
3559
15
10
718538
13
4
4611331
1
3 ¼
65792
8
10
28022
1
9 ½
93814
10
7 ½
3364136
11
5
250
0
0
250
0
0
51390
12
1 ½
51390
12
1 ½
43114
19
9
43114
19
9
179133
13
7
179133
13
7
19473
16
0
19473
16
0
21096
4
4 ½
8639
13
3 ½
4636
17
2
874
2
5
2565
11
4 ½
291
19
8
6
5
0
11543
0
0
10911
11
2
1727
12
2
1427
8
0
973
13
8 ½
1814
0
0
720392
14
5 ½
4948077
7
9 ¾
65792
8
10
28022
1
9 ½
93814
10
7 ½
3678770
5
0
4941284
0
2 ½
4941284
0
2 ½
720392
14
5 ½
9889361
8
0 ¼
65792
8
10
28022
1
9 ½
93814
10
7 ½
8620054
5
2 ½
NOTES.
BALANCES.
Balances in the Hands of the different Collectors.
Balance in the Hands of the Receiver-General.
Bills in the Hands of the Receiver-General.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
5th Jan. 1805
430677
6
2
138196
12
3 ¾
5th Jan. 1806
331529
8
10
222886
0
0
Account-General's Office, 28th February 1806.
STEPHEN MOORE, Acct.-Gen.
xliii
An Account of the CONSOLIDATED FUND OF IRELAND, for the Year ended the 5th of January, 1806; and also the actual Payments thereout, within the said Year, and the total Charge thereon, in respect to the said Year; specifying the said Surplus of the said Consolidated Fund.
INCOME.
ACTUAL PAYMENTS.
CHARGE.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Balance on the Consolidated Fund remaining in the Exchequer on 5th January 1805 Custom and Excise Duties, including Quit-Rents and Payments by dismissed Collectors
264,619
4
2 ¼
Interest on Funded Debt, including Annuities and Management
2,254,499
10
0 ½
2,288,595
14
11 ½
2,807,074
3
3
Interest on Unfunded Debt
30,876
13
5 ½
31,922
1
9 ¾
Sinking Fund and Management
586,631
4
9
586,631
4
9
Stamp Duties
456,535
11
4 ¼
Principal of Debentures
50
0
0
2,275
0
0
Post-Office Revenue
58,988
17
3
Principal of Exchequer Bills
812,700
0
0
813,808
6
8
Duty on Wrought Plate
5,096
11
10
Lottery Prizes
604
0
0
27,784
0
0
Poundage Fee
27,280
10
4 ½
Discount on prompt Payment of Loan Deposites, &c.
28,893
15
4 ¾
28,893
15
4 ¾
Pells Fee
5,456
1
6 ¼
Relief of Loyalists
524
15
3 ¾
524
15
3 ¾
3,625,050
19
9 ¼
Compensation for Losses by the Union
5,002
13
1 ¼
5,002
13
1 ¼
Inland Navigations
43,418
13
10 ½
43,418
13
10 ½
Light-House at Clue Bay
670
2
0
670
2
0 ¾
3,763,871
8
0
3,829,526
7
11 ¼
Repayment from Great-Britain for Seamens' Wages advanced by Collectors in Ireland
43,114
19
9
Gain by Exchange on Sums received from Great Britain
51,390
12
1 ½
Other Monies paid to the Public
32,068
5
1 ½
Civil List
157,115
7
0 ½
Unascertained.
Pensions
96,914
12
5
3,751,624
16
9 ¼
Permanent Parliament Payments
196,062
9
1 ¼
Military Purposes
3,908,261
5
6 ⅓
Vote of Credit
212,482
3
11 ¼
Annual Grants
266,620
0
8
EXTRAORDINARY RESOURCES.
8,601,327
6
8
Unascertained.
On Account of Loans
4,491,284
0
2 ½
From Great Britain, to complete ¼ of the Profit on the Lotteries 1804
114,697
18
4
More on Account of ⅓ of the Profit on the Lotteries for 1805
64,435
15
3
Surplus of the Consolidated Fund on the 5th of January 1806
270,715
3
10 ½
8,872,042
10
6 ¾
8,872,042
10
6 ¾
Treasury Chambers, Dublin Castle, 18th March 1806.
G. CAVENDISH.
xlv
Account of the PUBLIC EXPENDITURE of IRELAND, for the Year ending on the 5th of January 1806.
(N. B. For the Particulars under each Head, see the several Accounts referred to by Letters A, B, &c.)
HEADS OF EXPENDITURE.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
I. For Interest on the Funded Debt of Ireland, including Annuities for Lives and Terms of Years; also £. per Cent. for the Reduction of the Capital created by Loans since 1797 (A 1. and 2.)
2748856
2
8
For Charge of Management thereon
24639
3
9 ½
There was also applied, towards the Reduction of the National Debt, the Annual Issue of
67635
8
4
2816491
11
0
Whereof was applied, towards the Reduction of the National Debt
756857
6
11 ¾
Total on Account of Interest
2059634
4
0 ¼
Ditto, for Charge of Management
24639
3
9 ½
Ditto, on Account of the Reduction of the National
Debt
756857
6
11 ¾
2841130
14
9 ½
II. The Interest on Exchequer Bills (B.)
30876
13
5 ½
III. Issues for Purposes appointed by the Parliament of Ireland prior to the Union, &c. (C.)
891863
19
9
IV. Issues from Appropriated Funds for Local Purposes (D.)
18783
0
0
3782654
8
0
V. Civil List
157115
7
0 ½
Pensions
96914
12
5
Other Permanent Charges (E.)
196062
9
1 ¼
450092
8
6 ¾
VI. Payments in Anticipation of Exchequer Receipts, viz.
Bounties
28022
1
9 ½
Militia, Army of Reserve, Deserters, Warrants, &c. (F. 1. and 2.)
65792
8
10
93814
10
7 ½
VII. Ordnance (G.)
650000
0
0
VIII. Army.—Ordinary Service, viz.
Regulars, Militia, and Volunteer Corps
2391197
15
0 ¾
Barracks
360824
14
8 ¼
Staff Officers and Officers of Garrisons
82076
17
4
Half-Pay and Supernumerary Officers, Reduced Chaplains, &c.
31102
11
10 ¾
Officers' Widows
5003
14
0 ½
Royal Hospital
46977
16
8
Muster-Master-General and other Public Officers, their Deputies, Clerks, and contingent Expences (H.)
9678
12
5 ¼
2926862
2
1 ½
Extraordinary Service
331399
3
4 ¾
3258261
5
6 ¼
IX. Miscellaneous Services (I.)
266620
0
8 ¼
Lastly. Vote of Credit (K.)
212482
3
11 ¼
4931270
9
4
Total
8713924
17
4
Treasury Chambers, Dublin Castle, 1st March 1806.
G. CAVENDISH.
xlvii
(A. 1.) An Account of the Monies paid out of the Receipt of the Exchequer, in the Year ending the 5th of January 1806, towards satisfying the Charge of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT of Ireland; distinguishing the Total Amount of the Sums applied for Interest, Charge of Management, and the Annual Issue for its Reduction.
Interest & Annuities for Lives and Terms of Years, &c.
Charge of Management.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
Interest, &c. on the Funded Debt of Ireland
2,748,856
2
8
24,639
3
9 ½
24,639
3
9 ½
2,773,495
6
5 ½
Annual Issue for the Reduction of the National Debt
67,635
8
4
£.
2,841,130
14
9 ½
(A. 2.) An Account of the Total Amount of the Sums actually received by the Commissioners for REDUCTION of the NATIONAL DEBT, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1806.
In Great Britain.
In Ireland.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Annual Issue
67,635
8
4
Expired Annuities
2,250
0
0
Appropriation of £.1 per Cent. per Annum on Loans since 1797.
407,809
8
2
108,537
2
9
407,809
8
2
178,422
11
1
Interest on Debt of Ireland redeemed
94,703
6
2 ¾
75,922
1
6
502,512
14
4 ¾
254,344
12
7
254,344
12
7
£.
756,857
6
11 ¾
(B.) An Account of the INTEREST on EXCHEQUER BILLS, with the Payments made in the Year from the 5th January 1805, to the 5th January 1806.
There remained unclaimed on the 5th January 1805, Interest on Exchequer
£.
s
d.
Bills to the 25th of December 1804
1,368
13
4 ¾
On £.300,000—at £.5 per Ct. 211 Days from 25 Dec. 1804 to 24 July 1805
8,671
4
7 ½
300,000—at ditto
278 Days from ditto
to 29 Sept.
11,424
13
1 ½
100,000—at ditto
302 Days from ditto
to 23 Oct.
4,136
19
8 ½
100,000—at ditto
330 Days from ditto
to 20 Nov.
4,520
11
0
30,000—at £.6 per Ct. One Year from ditto
to 25 Dec.
1,800
0
0
31,922
1
9 ¾
Deduct Interest payable 25th Dec. 1805, which remained unclaimed on the 5th January 1806
1,045
8
4 ¼
Total Payments for Interest on Exchequer Bills, in the Year to 5th January 1806
£.30,876
13
5 ½
(C.) An Account of PAYMENTS made our Purposes appointed by the PARLIAMENT of IRELAND prior to the Union, for Principal of Exchequer Bills, and for Discount on Prompt Payment of Loan Deposites, &c. in One Year ending 5th January 1806.
£.
s.
d.
For Relief of Suffering Loyalists
524
15
3 ¾
Compensation for Losses by the Union
5,002
13
1 ¼
Inland Navigations
43,418
13
10 ½
Light-House in Clue Bay
670
2
0 ¾
Lottery Prizes
604
0
0
Principal of Loan Debentures
50
0
0
Principal of Exchequer Bills
812,700
0
0
Discount on Prompt Payment of Loan Deposites, &c.
28,893
15
4 ¾
&3x00A3;.891,863
19
9
xlix
(D). An Account of PAYMENTS made from the FUNDS appropriated for local Purposes in IRELAND, from the 5th January 1805, to the 5th January 1806.
£.
s.
d.
For improving Dublin
13,289
7
11
The Royal Exchange and Commercial Buildings
1,296
7
1 ½
Presbyterian Ministers
349
19
11 ½
Fish Bounty
3,847
5
0
18,783
0
0
(E.) An Account of PAYMENTS in the Year ending the 5th of January 1806, under the several Heads of —Civil List, Pensions, and other Permanent Charges.
£.
s.
d.
Arrear on the Civil List on 5th January 1805
37,256
17
3
Charge for ditto, for One Year to 25th December 1805
145,000
0
0
182,256
17
3
Deduct Arrear on the 5th January 1806
25,141
10
2 ½
£.
s.
d.
Issues to the Civil List in One Year to the 5th January 1806
157,115
6
0 ½
Pensions
96,914
12
5
Other Permanent Charges, viz.
Public Coal Yards
1,762
1
2
Army Baggage
30,262
12
4 ¼
Lottery Expences
459
18
1 ¼
Police Establishment
15,286
18
2
Inspector-General of Prisons
162
1
4 ½
Transportation of Felons
8,721
12
11 ¼
Fees on Auditing Treasury Accounts
1,854
12
9 ½
Imprest Office
2,7372
17
6 ¼
Secret Service in detecting Treasonable Conspiracies
5,670
2
0 ¼
Annuities and Compensation allowances
97,99
8
7
10 ½
Judges' Additional Salaries, &c.
26,646
4
9 ¼
Commission of Enquiry
1,200
0
0
196,062
9
1 ¼
450,092
8
6 ¾
(F. 1.) An Account of the Amount of BOUNTIES paid out of the Public Revenue, in the Year ending the 5th of January 1806, being Payments in the Nature of Anticipation of Exchequer Receipt.
£.
s.
d.
On Linen Exported
13,243
14
3 ½
Fishing Vessels
5,381
8
8
Bark Imported
8,708
12
9
Irish Coals brought Coastways to Dublin
63
3
0
Irish Cured Fish Exported
298
15
2
Irish Fish Oil Exported
61
16
0
Corn Exported
264
11
11
(F. 2.) An Account of the Amount of PAYMENTS to the MILITIA, ARMY of RESERVE, DESERTERS' WARRANTS, &c. &c. in the Year ending the 5th of January 1806.
£.
s.
d.
Militia
40,218
11
1 ½
Army of Reserve
14,773
13
6
Deserters' Warrants
1,000
0
0
Straggling Seamen's ditto
25
3
0
Fortification Compensation
17
1
3
Compensation to Revenue Collectors in lieu of Fees on Licences
9,757
19
11 ½
65,792
8
10
(G.) An Account of MONIES paid to the Office of ORDNANCE, in the Year to the 5th of January 1806.
Payments to the Ordnance for Grants of 1805
£.650,000
VOL. VII.—
Appendix.
d
li
(H.) An Account of MONIES paid on Account of HIS MAJESTY'S FORCES in IRELAND, in the Year ending the 5th of January 1806.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Regiments of the Line
1,356,291
18
7 ¾
Militia
706,236
16
8
Volunteer Corps
312,462
1
3 ½
Contingencies, &c. for Land Forces
1,095
16
3 ¼
Military Hospitals and Medicaments
10,878
6
1 ½
Royal Military Infirmary
4,232
16
0 ¾
2,391,197
15
0 ¾
Barracks
360,824
17
8 ¼
Staff Officers and Officers of Garrison
82,076
17
4
Half-Pay and Supernumerary Officers, Reduced Chaplains, &c.
31,102
11
10 ¾
Officers' Widows
5,003
14
0 ½
Royal Hospital
46,977
16
8
Muster-Master-General and other Public Officers, their Deputies, Clerks, and Incidental Expences
9,678
12
5 ¼
2,926,862
2
1 ½
Extraordinaries
331,399
3
4 ¾
£.3,258,261
5
6 ¼
(1.) An Account shewing the Payments in the Year ending the 5th January 1806, for MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES.
To Stephen Moore, Esq. Accountant-General, for his Expence and Trouble in preparing the Public Accounts laid before Parliament, Session 1805
&
#x00A3;.
s.
d.
&
#x00A3;.
s.
d.
340
0
0
John Smart, Esq. Deputy-Accountant-General, for the like
240
0
0
Paul le Bas, Esq. Examinator of Corn Bounties, for keeping the Accounts of said Office
200
0
0
Robert Marshall, Esq. Inspector-General of Imports and Exports, for his Expense and Trouble in preparing Accounts of Imports and Exports for Parliament
250
0
0
Roger Wetherall, First Clerk in the Inspector-General of Imports and Exports Office, for Extra Trouble in preparing Accounts for Parliament
200
0
0
George Hatton, Examinator of Excise, for extra Trouble and Expense in preparing Accounts for Parliament
200
0
0
Samuel Hood, Assistant-Examinator of Excise for the like
150
0
0
Thomas Haffield, Clerk in the Office of the Auditor of the Exchequer, for extra Trouble in preparing Accounts for Parliament
200
0
0
1,780
0
0
The Expense of Civil Buildings for One Year to the 5th of January 1806
25,000
0
0
Expense of Printing and Binding 250 Copies of the Public Acts of 45th Geo. III.
900
0
0
Printing Proclamations and Advertisements in the Dublin Gazette and other Newspapers
7,026
9
10 ½
Treasury Incidents
2,000
0
0
Working his Majesty's Gold Mine in the County of Wicklow
103
1
10 ¼
Printing, Stationery, and other Disbursements for several Public Offices in Dublin Castle
20,410
0
0
Apprehending Public Offenders
409
2
11 ½
Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Expences of Government
25,000
0
0
Expense of Pratique in the Port of Dublin
1,047
10
2
Non conforming Ministers of Ireland, to complete the Sum necessary for their Support to 5th January 1806
9,176
3
3
91,072
8
1 ¼
The Corporation for Paving, Cleansing, &c. the Streets of Dublin
10,000
0
0
Trustees of the Linen and Hempen Manufacture
21,600
0
0
Expense of Building the intended Hall for the Royal College of Surgeons
6,000
0
0
Dublin Society for promoting Husbandry and other useful Arts, &c.
10,000
0
0
Farming Society
2,000
0
0
Commissioners for making wide and convenient Streets in Dublin
10,884
14
8
Rebuilding the Parish Church of St. Andrew, Dublin, &c.
6,000
0
0
Board of First Fruits, for Building New, and repairing Old Churches
5,000
0
0
71,484
14
8
Carried forward
164,337
2
9 ¼
liii
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Brought forward
164,337
2
9 ¼
For defraying the Expenses of the Foundling Hospital, Dublin, One Year to 5th January 1806
22,500
0
0
The Hibernian Marine Society
1,691
19
4
The Hibernian School for Soldiers' Children
6,132
19
8
The Female Orphan House near Dublin
958
13
9
The Association for discountenancing Vice, and promoting the Christian Religion
1,280
0
0
The Westmorland Lock Hospital
6,897
0
0
The House of Industry, Dublin
21,433
18
7
The House of Recovery, and Fever Hospital, Dublin
1,030
18
6
The Lying-in Hospital, Dublin
2,599
8
0
The Penitentiary in Dublin, for young Criminals, &c.
1,795
0
0
The Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests
400
0
0
The Roman Catholic Seminary
8,000
0
0
Madam Stevens's Hospital
4,492
0
0
The Incorporated Society for promoting English Protestant Schools in Ireland
22,681
6
1
102,282
17
11
266,620
0
8 ¼
(K) An Account of the Amount of Payments from the VOTE of CREDIT in the Year ending the 5th of January 1806.
Amount of Payments from the Vote of Credit
£.212,482
3
11 ¼
(1) An Account of the Value of all IMPORTS into and all EXPORTS from IRELAND, for the Year ending 5th January 1806; distinguishing the Value of Irish Produce and Manufactures Exported from the Value of Foreign Articles Exported; together with the Different between the Official Value and the Real Value of Irish Produce and Manufacture Exported in the Year ending 5th January 1806.
£.
s.
d.
Official Value of Imports
5,982,194
19
9
Official Value of Exports
Irish Produce, &c. Foreign Articles
£.5,059,967 142,418
13 4
10 6
5,202,385
18
4
Real Value of Exports of Irish Produce and Manufactures
8,436,933
16
3
(2) An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their Tonnage, which have been Built and Registered in the several Ports of IRELAND, between the 5th of January 1805, and the 5th of January 1806.
Vessels.
Amount of Tonnage.
28
1,212
(3) An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their Tonnage, and Number of Men and Boys usually employed in Navigating the same, which belonged to the several Ports of IRELAND, on the 30th of September 1805.
Vessels.
Tons.
Men.
1,067
56,755
5,062
lv
An Account of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT of Ireland, as the same stood on the 5th of January the different Funds in which it is invested—the Amount of the Capital Stock of each Fund— Dublin respectively—the Charge of Management—and the Annual Charge for the
By what Acts created.
Sums raised.
Payable in Dublin:
Payable in
3
l
s
4
l
5
l
5
l.
3
l
3
l
3
l
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
13 Geo. III.
265000
align="center">-
-
-
-
-
-
-
15 Geo. III.
175000
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
17 Geo. III
200000
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
25 Geo. III
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
27 Geo. III
200000
200000
-
-
-
-
-
-
28 Geo. III.
918240
918240
-
-
-
-
-
-
27, 29, and 31 Geo. III.
174600
-
174600
-
-
-
-
-
33 Geo. III.
200000
-
-
200000
-
-
-
-
Vote of Credit 11 June, 1793
150000
-
-
150000
-
-
-
-
34 Geo. III.
1029650
-
-
487983
500000
-
-
-
35 Geo. III.
1591666
-
-
400000
1100000
-
-
-
36 Geo. III.
640000
-
-
640000
-
-
-
-
Vote of Credit 18 Oct. 1796
325000
-
-
-
300000
-
-
-
37 Geo. III.
2018700
-
-
635000
-
1875000
750000
-
38 Geo. III.
3424476
-
-
2054950
-
3000000
1000000
-
39 Geo. III.
5261000
-
-
2011000
-
3750000
1500000
-
40 Geo. III
4666666
-
-
2500000
-
2200000
940000
-
41 Geo. III
2750319
-
-
41985
-
3125000
1268750
-
42 Geo. III
3791666
1770232
-
-
-
1300000
1200000
139250
43 Geo. III
2166666
-
-
-
-
1600000
1600000
-
44 Geo. III.
6125000
-
-
1404531
-
3690000
4500000
-
45 Geo. III.
4333333
-
-
-
-
3750000
550000
-
—
BANK OF IRELAND.
32 and 37 Geo. III.
600000
-
-
600000
-
-
-
-
37 Geo. III
500000
-
-
500000
-
-
-
-
£
41606985
2888472
174600
11625450
1900000 Irish Currency: 2058333
24290000 Irish Currency: 26314166
13308750 Irish Currency: 14417812
139250 Irish Currency: 150854
N.B. For want of room, the shillings, pence, and farthings, are left out all through this account.
Total principal Debt on 5th
lvii
1806; distinguish the Years in which each Part thereof was created; distinguishing also the Annual Interest and Annuities, and the several Portions thereof payable in London and Reduction of the said Debt.
LONDON:
Annual Interest.
Annuities on Lives or Terms of Years.
Charge of Management.
Annual Charge for Redemption of National Debt.
Total of Annual Expenses.
4
l
5
l
Pursuant to Act 37 Geo. III. for Redemption of Debt then existing.
By Acts providing 1
l
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
-
-
-
15900
1052
-
-
†49952
-
-
-
10500
-
-
-
22500
-
-
-
-
-
2250
-
‡2250
-
-
39138
-
-
-
-
39133
-
-
-
-
6984
-
-
-
-
6984
-
-
17500
-
-
-
-
17500
-
-
-
-
51482
10296
346
-
-
62125
-
-
79585
18058
655
-
-
98297
-
-
48250
23437
319
-
-
72007
-
-
300000
-
130062
5281
1271
67635
38714
242965
-
-
232747
5326
1774
-
64466
304314
-
-
271175
-
2313
-
76875
350363
-
-
227050
-
1406
-
59016
287473
-
-
144896
-
2010
-
47598
194505
-
-
143208
-
1161
-
46294
190663
-
-
104000
6951
1602
-
35346
147899
-
-
336401
-
3975
-
102770
443147
-
360000
159250
81250
2728
-
57263
300499
-
-
30000
-
-
-
-
30000
-
-
25000
18125
-
-
5000
48125
*3621
-
-
3621
300000
360000
2046729
21726
24239
69885
533346
2891827
Irish Currency:
Irish Currency:
* Management on so much of the debt payable in Dublin as has been converted into stock, transferable at the Bank of Ireland. The remainder is not chargeable with management.
325000
390000
325000
150854
14417812
26314166
† Life Annuities.
26314166
2058333
11625450
‡ Expired Annuities.
174600
2888472
January 1806-
-58344690
Treasury Chambers, Dublin Castle, February the 28th, 1806.
G. CAVENDISH.
An Account of the UNFUNDED DEBT of IRELAND, and Demands outstanding on the 5th January 1806; under the Heads of Loan Debentures, Exchequer Bills, Lottery Prizes, and Loan from Great Britain for paying the Prizes of the Irish Lotteries of 1801; distinguishing under each Head respectively the Particulars of which such Debt or Demand consisted, and also what Part of the said Debt and Demand was then provided for, and in what Manner; and what Part thereof was unprovided for.
Loan Debentures:
Residue of Debentures bearing 4
l
£.
s
d
£.
s
d
£.
s
d
Old Loan
-
-
-
275
0
0
Loan by Lottery 1780
-
-
-
1220
0
0
Loan by Lottery 1781
-
-
-
730
0
0
(
a
0
0
Exchequer Bills:
Outstanding Exchequer Bills, provided for by several Acts of Parliament, but cot claimed by the Proprietors:
Payable 24 June - 1783
8
6
8
24 June - 1790
50
0
0
24 June - 1791
100
0
0
24 June - 1795
300
0
0
24 June - 1801
100
0
0
24 June - 1802
100
0
0
25 June - 1803
450
0
0
(
a
6
8
Exchequer Bills, not in Course of Payment till after the January 1806:
38 Geo. III. Payable 25 March 1806
-
-
-
(
b
0
0
31108
6
8
Lottery Prizes:
Outstanding Lottery Prizes of the several Lotteries from 1782 to 1801
(
a
0
0
Loan from Great Britain for paying the Prizes of the Irish Lotteries of 1801
299000
0
0
Total
359513
6
8
(a) Provision had been made for these Sums by several Acts of Parliament.
(b) To be provided for by the Grand Canal Company, to whom they were issued. The remaining Sums to be provided for.
Treasury Chambers, Dublin Castle, 28th February 1806.
C. CAVENDISH.
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Service of the Year 1805, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.
SERVICES.
Sums granted.
Sums paid.
Remains.
Forces:
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Army with garrisons and their incidents (1070503
l
s
d
l
s
d
1159712
4
7
Foreign corps, the Queen's German regiment (24257
l
s
d
l
s
d
26278
17
3
Allowance to non-commissioned officers and private men of the regulars, for small beer, and while on a march, (78511
l
s
d
l
s
85054
5
5
Recruiting and contingencies (125866
l
s
d
l
s
d
136355
4
10½
1407400
12
1½
1364534
4
9½
42866
7
4
Militia, (614039
l
s
d
l
s
d
665209
17
10¾
Allowance to non-commissioned officers and private men, for small beer, and while on a march, (41187
l
s
l
s
44619
18
4
Contingencies for embodied militia (15692
l
s
d
l
s
d
17000
0
0
726829
16
2¾
706236
16
8
20592
19
6¾
Volunteers corps (500000
l
l
541666
13
4
312462
1
3½
229204
12
0½
General and staff officers, and officers of hospitals,(76691
l
s
d
l
s
d
83082
3
4
74930
7
5½
8151
15
10½
Full pay to supernumerary officers of his majesty's land forces (1135
l
s
d
l
s
d
1229
13
6½
1122
17
0¼
106
16
6¼
Muster-master-general, and other principal officers of several public departments, their deputies, clerks, and contingent expences, (8971
l
s
d
l
s
d
9718
12
11¼
9678
12
5¼
40
0
6
Half-pay to reduced officers of his majesty's land forces, and reduced chaplains (30,623
l
s
d
l
s
d
33175
6
10
Military allowance to reduced officers of land forces, (665
l
s
d
l
s
d
720
17
6
33896
4
4
29076
1
6¼
4820
2
9¾
In and out pensioners of the royal hospital near Kilmainham, and expences of said hospital, (50932
l
s
d
l
s
d
55176
8
3½
46977
16
8
8198
11
7½
Pensions to widows and officers of the land forces, and expences attending the same (6000
l
l
s
d
6500
0
0
5003
14
0
1496
11½
General hospital expences of his majesty's forces in Ireland, including medicaments, for general and regimental hospitals, and the charge of the royal military infirmary in Dublin for sick and wounded soldiers(20522
l.
s
d
22232
16
1
15111
2
2¼
7121
13
10¾
Carried forward
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Service of the Year 1805, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.—
(Continued.)
SERVICES—
Continued.
Sums granted.
Sums paid.
Remains.
Brought forward
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Barrack department in Ireland (483698
l
s
d
l
s
d
524006
15
11
360824
14
8¼
163182
1
2¾
Military allowances in Ireland, formerly paid out of the fund for making good the arrear of such allowances to 25th December 1805 (1002
l
s
d
1085
11
7¾
903
13
4
181
18
2¾
Extraordinary expences of the army in Ireland (600000
l
650000
0
0
331399
3
4
318600
16
7¼
Ordnance:
Office of ordnance in Ireland, for the year 1805, (470769
l
s
d
510000
0
0
510000
0
0
More: to replace a like sum advance by the exchequer in Ireland, for ordnance service in 1804, beyond the grant of parliament for said service in said year (129230
l
s
d
140000
0
0
140000
0
0
To discharge treasury bills, due in Ireland, in 1805
800000
0
0
800000
0
0
Public Office for several Service:
Stephen Moore, esq. account-general, for his extraordinary trouble and expense in preparing and stating the public accounts of Ireland, for parliament, session 1805
340
0
0
340
0
0
John Smart, esq. deputy-accountant-general, for his extraordinary trouble in preparing the public accounts of Ireland, for parliament, for one year ending 5th January 1805
240
0
0
240
0
0
Paul Le Bas, esq. examinator of corn bounties, for his trouble in keeping the accounts of said office
200
0
0
200
0
0
Robert Marshall, esq. inspector-general of imports and exports, for his expense and trouble in preparing accounts of the imports and exports of Ireland, for parliament, for one year ending the 5th January 1805
250
0
0
250
0
0
Roger Wetherall, esq. first clerk in the office of the inspector-general of imports and exports, for his extraordinary trouble in preparing accounts for parliament
200
0
0
200
0
0
George Hatton, esq. examinator of excise, for his extraordinary trouble and expense in preparing accounts for parliament
200
0
0
200
0
0
Samuel Hood, esq. assistant-examinator of excise, for his extraordinary trouble in preparing accounts for parliament
150
0
0
150
0
0
Thomas Haffield, esq. clerk in the office of the auditor of the exchequer, for his extraordinary trouble in preparing accounts for parliament
200
0
0
200
0
0
Miscellaneous Services:
For defraying the expense of civil buildings, from 5th January 1805 to 5th January 1806
25000
0
0
25000
0
0
For defraying the expense of printing and binding 250 copies of the acts of the 45th year of his present majesty
900
0
0
900
0
0
For defraying the expense of publishing proclamations and advertisements in the Dublin gazette, and other newspapers, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
7026
9
10½
7026
9
10½
For defraying the probable charge for treasury incidents, form 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
2000
0
0
2000
0
0
Carried forward
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Services of the Year 1805, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.—
(Continued.)
SERVICES—
Continued.
Sums granted.
Sums paid.
Remains.
Brought forward
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
For defraying the expenditure at his majesty's gold mine at Croaghan, in the county of Wicklow, from the 5th January 1805, to the 5th of January 1806
760
3
2½
103
1
10¼
657
1
4¼
For defraying the charge of printing, stationery, and other disbursements for the chief and under secretaries' offices and apartments, and other public offices, in Dublin castle, &c. and for the riding charge and other expenses of the deputy pursuivants and extra messengers attending said offices, from 5th January 1806
20410
0
0
20410
0
0
For defraying the expense of apprehending public offenders in Ireland, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
2500
0
0
409
2
11½
2090
17
0½
For defraying the expense of criminal prosecutions, and other law expenses of government, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January, 1806
25000
0
0
25000
0
0
For defraying the expense of pratique, in the port of Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January, 1806
1047
10
2
1047
10
2
For completing the sum necessary for the support of the non-conforming ministers of Ireland, for one year, from 5th January, 1805, to 5th January 1806
9176
3
3
9176
3
3
Public Boards:
To be paid to the corporation for paving, cleansing, and lighting the streets of Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, 6000
l
l
s
d
10000
0
0
10000
0
0
The trustees of the linen and hempen manufactures, to promote and encourage said manufactures for one year ending 5th January 1805
21600
0
0
21600
0
0
Towards defraying the expense of building the intended hall for the royal college of surgeons, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
6000
0
0
6000
0
0
To be paid the Dublin society, for promoting husbandry and other useful arts, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, for completing their additional buildings, supporting the botanic garden, and other objects of the said society
10000
0
0
10000
0
0
For defraying the expences of the farming society, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
2000
0
0
2000
0
0
To be paid to the commissioners for making wide and convenient streets in the city of Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, for paying the debts due by them on treasury bills, and for the purposes of their institution
10884
14
8
10884
14
8
Towards completing the re-building of the parish church of Saint Andrew, Dublin, and building a steeple and spire thereto
6000
0
0
6000
0
0
The board of first fruits, for building new churches, and rebuilding old churches, in such parishes as no public service has been performed in for 20 years, and for the encouragement of building glebe houses, &c. for one year, to 5th January 1806
5000
0
0
5000
0
0
An Account shewing how the MONIES granted for the service of the Year 1805, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.—
(Continued.)
SERVICES—
Continued.
Sums granted.
Sums paid.
Remains.
Brought forward
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Public Hospital and Schools.
For defraying the expense of the foundling hospital, Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
22500
0
0
2250
0
0
For defraying the charge of the Hibernian marine society in Dublin; from the 5th January 1805, to the 5th of January 1806
1691
13
4
1691
13
4
For defraying the expense of the Hibernian school for soldiers' children, from 5th January 1805, to 5th of January 1806
6132
19
8
6132
19
8
For defraying the charge of the female orphan house near Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, for the support of 140 children
958
13
9
958
13
9
For defraying the expenses which shall be incurred by the association for discountenancing vice, and promoting the Knowledge and practice of the Christian religion, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
1280
0
0
1280
0
0
For supporting the Westmorland lock hospital in Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
6897
0
0
6897
0
0
For defraying the expense of supporting the house of industry in Dublin, from the 5th of January 1805, to 5th January 1806
21433
18
7
21433
18
7
For defraying the expense maintaining eighty patients in the house of recovery and fever hospital in Cork street, Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
1030
18
6
1030
18
6
For defraying the expense of the lying-in hospital in Dublin, from the 5th of January 1805, to the 5th of January 1806
2599
8
0
2599
8
0
For defraying the charge of fitting up and supporting a penitentiary in Dublin, for employment of persons sentenced to transportation, and young criminals, &c. from 5th of January 1805. to the 5th of January 1806
1795
0
0
1795
0
0
For defraying the charge of the office of the commissionersof charitable donations and bequests; from the 5th of January 1805, to the 5th of January 1805, to the 5th of January 1806
400
0
0
400
0
0
For defraying the expenses of Madam Steven's hospital, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, in repairs of the buildings, in furniture, and enlarging and maintaining the accommodation for patients
4942
0
0
4942
0
0
For defraying the charge of the incorporated society in Dublin, for promoting English protestant schools in Ireland, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, for the support and maintenance of the charity
22621
6
1
22621
6
1
£
5782193
6
10¼
4974881
6
2½
807312
0
7¾
Treasury Chambers, Dublin Castle, 1st March, 1806.
G. CAVENDISH.
lix
An Account of the UNFUNDED DEBT of IRELAND, and Demands outstanding on the 5th January 1806; under the Heads of Loan Debentures, Exchequer Bills, Lottery Prizes, and Loan from Great Britain for paying the Prizes of the Irish Lotteries of 1801; distinguishing under each Head respectively the Particulars of which such Debt or Demand consisted, and also what Part of the said Debt and Demand was then provided for, and in what Manner; and what Part thereof was unprovided for.
Loan Debentures:
£.
s
d
£.
s
d
£.
s
d
Residue of Debentures bearing 4
l
Old Loan
-
-
-
275
0
0
Loan by Lottery 1780
-
-
-
1220
0
0
Loan by Lottery 1781
-
-
-
730
0
0
(a)
0
0
Exchequer Bills:
Outstanding Exchequer Bills, provided
Payable
24 June - 1783
8
6
8
24 June - 1790
50
0
0
24 June - 1791
100
0
0
24 June - 1795
300
0
0
24 June - 1801
100
0
0
24 June - 1802
100
0
0
25 June - 1803
450
0
0
(
a
6
8
Exchequer Bills, not in Course of Payment
38 Geo. III. Payable 25 March 1806
-
-
-
(
b
0
0
31108
6
8
Lottery Prizes:
Outstanding Lottery Prizes of the several Lotteries from 1782lb/> to 1801
(
a
0
0
Loan from Great Britain for paying the Prizes of the Irish Lot-
299000
0
0
Total
359513
6
8
(a)
(b)
Treasury Chambers, Dublin Castle, 28th February 1806.
C. CAVENDISH.
lxi
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Service of the Year 1805, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.
SERVICES.
Sums granted.
Sums paid.
Remains.
Forces:
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Army with garrisons and their in-
l
s
d
l
s
d
1159712
4
7
Foreign corps, the Queen's Ger-
l
s
d
l
s
d
26278
17
3
Allowance to non-commission-
l
s
d
l
s
85054
5
5
Recruiting and contingencies
l
s
d
l
s
d
136355
4
10½
1407400
12
1½
1364534
4
9½
42866
7
4
Militia, (614039
l
s
d
l
s
d
665209
17
10¾
Allowance to non-commission-
l
s
d
l
s
44619
18
4
Contingencies for embodied militia (15692
l
s
d
l
s
d
17000
0
0
726829
16
2¾
706236
16
8
20592
19
6¾
Volunteer corps (500000
l
l
541666
13
4
312462
1
3½
229204
12
0½
General and staff officers, and officers of hospitals,
l
s
d
l
s
d
83082
3
4
74930
7
5½
8151
15
10½
Full pay to supernumerary officers of his majesty's
l
s
d
l
s
d
1229
13
6½
1122
17
0¼
106
16
6¼
Muster-master-general, and other principal offi-
l
s
d
l
s
d
9718
12
11¼
9678
12
5¼
40
0
6
Half-pay to reduced officers oflb/> his majesty's land forces, and
l
s
d
l
s
d
33175
6
10
Military allowance to reduced
l
s
d
l
s
d
720
17
6
33896
4
4
29076
1
6¼
4820
2
9¾
In and out pensioners of the royal hospital nearlb/> Kilmainham, and expences of said hospital,
l
s
d
l
s
d
55176
8
3½
46977
16
8
8198
11
7½
Pensions to widows and officers of the land forces,
l
l
s
d
6500
0
0
5003
14
0
1496
5
11½
General hospital expences of his majesty's forces
l.
s
d
22232
16
1
15111
2
2¼
7121
13
10¾
Carried forward
lxiii
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Service of the Year 1805, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.—
(Continued.)
SERVICES—
Continued.
Sums granted.
Sums paid.
Remains.
Brought forward
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Barrack department in Ireland (483698
l
s
d
l
s
d
524006
15
11
360824
14
8¼
163182
1
2¾
Military allowances in Ireland, formerly paid out
l
s
d
1085
11
7¾
903
13
4
181
18
2½
Extraordinary expences of the army in Ireland
l
650000
0
0
331399
3
4
318600
16
7¼
Ordnance:
Office of ordnance in Ireland, for the year 1805,
l
s
d
510000
0
0
510000
0
0
More: to replace a like sum advance by the ex-
l
s
d
140000
0
0
140000
0
0
To discharge treasury bills, due in Ireland, in 1805
800000
0
0
800000
0
0
Public Officers for several Services:
Stephen Moore, esq. account-general, for his
340
0
0
340
0
0
John Smart, esq. deputy-accountant-general, for
240
0
0
240
0
0
Paul Le Bas, esq. examinator of corn bounties, for
200
0
0
200
0
0
Robert Marshall, esq. inspector-general of imports
250
0
0
250
0
0
Roger Wetherall, esq. first clerk in the office of the
200
0
0
200
0
0
George Hatton, esq. examinator of excise, for his
200
0
0
200
0
0
Samuel Hood, esq. assistant-examinator of excise,
150
0
0
150
0
0
Thomas Haffield, esq. clerk in the office of the au-
200
0
0
200
0
0
Miscellaneous Services:
For defraying the expense of civil buildings, from 5th January 1805 to 5th January 1806
25000
0
0
25000
0
0
For defraying the expense of printing and binding
900
0
0
900
0
0
For defraying the expense of publishing procla-
7026
9
10½
7026
9
10½
For defraying the probable charge for treasury in-
2000
0
0
2000
0
0
Carried forward
lxv
An Account, shewing how the MONIES granted for the Services of the Year 1805, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.—
(Continued.)
SERVICES—
Continued.
Sums granted.
Sums paid.
Remains.
Brought forward
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
For defraying the expenditure at his majesty's gold mine at Croaghan, in the county of Wicklow, from the 5th January 1805, to the 5th of January 1806
760
3
2½
103
1
10¼
657
1
4¼
For defraying the charge of printing, stationery, and other disbursements for the chief and under secretaries' offices and apartments, and other public offices, in Dublin castle, &c. and for the riding charge and other expenses of the deputy pursuivants and extra messengers attending said offices, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
20410
0
0
20410
0
0
For defraying the expense of apprehending public offenders in Ireland, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
2500
0
0
409
2
11½
2090
17
0½
For defraying the expense of criminal prosecutions, and other law expenses of government, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January, 1806
25000
0
0
25000
0
0
For defraying the expense of pratique, in the port of Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January, 1806
1047
10
2
1047
10
2
For completing the sum necessary for the support of the non-conforming ministers of Ireland, for one year, from 5th January, 1805, to 5th January 1806
9176
3
3
9176
3
3
Public Boards:
To be paid to the corporation for paving, cleansing, and lighting the streets of Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, 6000
l
l
s
d
10000
0
0
10000
0
0
The trustees of the linen and hempen manufactures, to promote and encourage said manufactures for one year ending 5th January 1805
21600
0
0
21600
0
0
Towards defraying the expense of building the intended hall for the royal college of surgeons, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
6000
0
0
6000
0
0
To be paid the Dublin society, for promoting husbandry and other useful arts, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, for completing their additional buildings, supporting the botanic garden, and other objects of the said society
10000
0
0
10000
0
0
For defraying the expences of the farming society, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
2000
0
0
2000
0
0
To be paid to the commissioners for making wide and convenient streets in the city of Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, for paying the debts due by them on treasury bills, and for the purposes of their institution
10884
14
8
10884
14
8
Towards completing the re-building of the parish church of Saint Andrew, Dublin, and building a steeple and spire thereto
6000
0
0
6000
0
0
The board of first fruits, for building new churches, and rebuilding old churches, in such parishes as no public service has been performed in for 20 years, and for the encouragement of building glebe houses, &c. for one year, to 5th January 1806
5000
0
0
5000
0
0
Carried forward
lvii
An Account shewing how the MONIES granted for the Service of the Year 1805, have been disposed of; distinguished under the several Heads, so far as relates to IRELAND; stated in Irish Currency.—
(Continued.)
SERVICES—
Continued.
Sums granted.
Sums paid.
Remains.
Brought forward
£
s
d
£
s
d
£
s
d
Public Hospital and Schools.
For defraying the expense of the foundling hospital, Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
22500
0
0
22500
0
0
For defraying the charge of the Hibernian marine society in Dublin; from the 5th January 1805, to the 5th of January 1806
1691
13
4
1691
13
4
For defraying the expense of the Hibernian school for soldiers' children, from 5th January 1805, to 5th of January 1806
6132
19
8
6132
19
8
For defraying the charge of the female orphan house near Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, for the support of 140 children
958
13
9
958
13
9
For defraying the expenses which shall be incurred by the association for discountenancing vice, and promoting the Knowledge and practice of the Christian religion, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
1280
0
0
1280
0
0
For supporting the Westmorland lock hospital in Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
6897
0
0
6897
0
0
For defraying the expense of supporting the house of industry in Dublin, from the 5th of January 1805, to 5th January 1806
21433
18
7
21433
18
7
For defraying the expense maintaining eighty patients in the house of recovery and fever hospital in Cork street, Dublin, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
1030
18
6
1030
18
6
For defraying the expense of the lying-in hospital in Dublin, from the 5th of January 1805, to the 5th of January 1806
2599
8
0
2599
8
0
For defraying the charge of fitting up and supporting a penitentiary in Dublin, for employment of persons sentenced to transportation, and young criminals, &c. from 5th of January 1805. to the 5th of January 1806
1795
0
0
1795
0
0
For defraying the charge of the office of the commissioners of charitable donations and bequests; from the 5th of January 1805, to the 5th of January 1805, to the 5th of January 1806
400
0
0
400
0
0
For defraying the charge of the Roman Catholic seminary, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806
8000
0
0
8000
0
0
For defraying the expenses of Madam Steven's hospital, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, in repairs of the buildings, in furniture, and enlarging and maintaining the accommodation for patients
4942
0
0
4942
0
0
For defraying the charge of the incorporated society in Dublin, for promoting English protestant schools in Ireland, from 5th January 1805, to 5th January 1806, for the support and maintenance of the charity
22621
6
1
22621
6
1
£
5782193
6
10¼
4974881
6
2½
807312
0
7¾
Treasury Chambers, Dublin Castle, 1st March, 1806.
G. CAVENDISH.
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
A.
Abolition of the Slave Trade, 801
Additional Force Bill, Repeal of the, 226, 270, 328
Administration, of Justice, in Scotland, 93, 730
American Intercourse Bill, 94, 116
Army, Military Opinions relating to the, 604
C.
Conduct of Judge Fox, 226, 752
Custom-House Fees Bill, 916
F.
Fox, Judge; Conduct of, 226, Petition of, 752; Protest against the Proceedings in the Case of, 788
I.
Impeachment of Lord Melville, 230
India, Affairs of, 833, 866, 873, 947
Insolvent Debtors', Bill, 146
K.
King's Message respecting the Royal Family, 899
King's Message respecting Lord Rodney, 919
King's Speech at the Close of the Session, 1261
M.
Masters in Chancery Bill, 1121
Melville, Lord; Impeachment of, 250
Military Opinions relating to the Army, 604
Militia officers' Bill, 1248
Mutiny Bill, 648, 682
N.
Nelson Grant, 145
P.
Protest against the American Intercourse Bill, 116; against the Proceedings, in the Case of Judge Fox, 788
Public Harbours Bill, 1251
R.
Repeal of the Additional Force Bill, 226, 270, 328
Rodney, Lord; King's Message respecting, 919
Royal Family, King's Message respecting the, 899
S.
Scotland, Administration of Justice in, 93, 730
Seymour Appeal Cause, 669
Slave Importation Bill, 31, 227
Slave Ship Restriction Bill, 1143
Slave Trade, Abolition of, 801
T.
Temple Bar and Snow Hill Lottery Bill, 831
Tortola Free-Port Bill, 178
Training, Bill, 1084
V.
Vaccine Inoculation, 901
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A.
Abolition of the Slave Trade, 508, 580
Additional Force Bill, Repeal of the, 1, 68, 74, 123
Affairs of India, 64, 103, 105 215, 247, 366, 414, 482, 509, 518, 561, 610, 684, 736, 776, 780, 783, 789, 830, 925, 938, 1044, 1153
American Intercourse Bill, 252, 336, 349, 507, 668, 686, 969
Arcot, Debts of the Nabobs of 284, 673, 940, 1095
Army Estimates, 62, 307, 349
Army, Increased Pay of the, 1133
Arrears of the Public Accounts, 64
Assessed Taxes Bill, 369, 578, 878
Auditors of Public Accounts Bill, 791, 876
B.
Ballot Suspension Bill, 857
Bankrupt Laws Bill, 839
Barrack Abuses, 237, 293, 869, 871, 1252
Bell Rock Light-house, 860
Bill sent by Mistake to the Lords, 1094
Brewers, Private; Tax on, 255, 523
Budget, Irish, 34, 56
Budget, India, 1044, 1153
C.
Chalmers and Cowie's Petition, 107, 248
Chelsea Hospital Bill, 574, 611, 618
Corn Intercourse Bill, 514, 520
E.
Election Treating Bill, 336, 571
Exemptions from Taxes, 513
F.
Financial Propositions, Mr. Johnstone's, 1126
Foreign Corps, Accounts relating to, 614
G.
Globe Insurance Bill, 812
Greenwich Hospital Bill, 675, 790, 809
Grenada and St. Vincent's Loan Bill, 1092
I.
Impeachment of Lord Melville, Vote of Thanks to the Managers of the, 351, 673
India Budget, 1044, 1153
India, Affairs of, 64, 103, 105, 215, 247, 366, 414, 482, 509, 518, 561, 610, 684, 736, 776, 780, 783, 799, 830, 925, 938, 1044
Irish Budget, 34, 56
Irish Revenues Collection Bill, 254
Irish Additional Force Repeal Bill, 254
Irish Customs Duty Bill, 330
Irish Election Bill, 772, 790
Irish Poor Relief Bill, 842
Irish Quit-Rents Bill, 872
Iron Duty Bill, 74
K.
King's Message respecting a Vote of Credit, 903
King's Message respecting the Family of Lord Nelson, 106, 141
King's Message respecting Greenwich Hospital, 790, 809
King's Message respecting the Royal Family, 875
King's Message respecting Lord Rodney's Annuity Bill, 902
L.
Linen Drawback Bill, 575
M.
Masters in Chancery Bill, 920
Melville, Lord; Impeachment of, 673
Military Commission, First Report of the, 248
Militia Officers' Bill, 1137
Mutiny Bill, 419, 483, 515, 528
N.
Nelson, Lord; King's Message respecting the Family of, 106, 141
Nelson's Annuity Bill, 263, 1147
P.
Philanthropic Society's Bill, 857
Pilots' Bill, 1146
Poor Laws, 292
Property Duty Bill, 50, 109, 217, 263, 394, 482
Public Accounts, Resolutions relating to, 1121
Public Harbours Bill, 1145
R.
Resolutions relating to Public Accounts, 1121
Repeal of the Additional Force Bill, 1, 68, 74, 123
Royal, Family Annuities Bill, 875, 923, 968, 1103
S.
Slave Trade, Abolition of the, 508, 580
Sullivan, Sir R., Papers relative to, 414
T.
Tortola Free-Port Bill, 233, 364
Training Bill, 813, 844,862, 904, 921
Treasurership of the Navy, 1097
V.
Unaudited Accounts, 335, 354
Vaccine Inoculation, 879
Vincent, Earl St., Conduct of, 109, 158
Volunteers, 837
Vote of Thanks to the Managers of the Impeachment of Lord Melville, 351
Vote of Thanks to the Volunteers, 1105
Vote of Credit, King's Message respecting a, 903
W.
Wellesley, Marquis ; Motions relating to the Conduct of, 64, 103, 215, 247, 366, 482, 509, 518, 561, 610, 684, 736, 776, 780, 783, 799, 830, 925, 938, 1044
West-India Accounts Bill, 295, 608, 661, 676
HOUSE OF LORDS.
A.
Abercorn, Marquis of, 764, 789
Asaph, Bishop of St., 231, 808, 918
Auckland, Lord, 98, 235, 771, 779
B.
Boringdon, Lord, 652
Buckinghamshire, Earl of, 99, 235, 654, 771, 964
C.
Camden, Earl, 273, 277, 653, 1250
Canterbury, Archbishop of, 917, 918
Carnarvon, Earl of, 99, 282, 652
Clarence, Duke of, 33, 227
Cumberland, Duke of, 226
D.
Darnley, Earl, 231, 281
Derby, Earl of, 281
E.
Eldon, Lord, 151, 231, 234, 328, 669, 766, 964, 967, 1089, 1092, 1144, 1190, 1249
Ellenborough, Lord, 146, 158, 234, 669, 965, 1145
Erskine, Lord;
see
F.
Fitzwilliam, Earl, 809, 1250
G.
Gloucester, Duke of, 231, 653
Grenville, Lord, 32, 92, 226, 227, 232, 606, 658, 730, 752, 755, 802, 809, 899, 917, 919, 956, 1088, 1090, 1144, 1248, 1251
Grosvenor, Earl, 283, 653, 809
H.
Hardwicke, Earl of, 329, 654, 771, 1250
Hawkesbury, Lord, 94, 226, 233, 275, 282, 604, 654, 682, 684, 735, 770, 780, 805, 962, 1092, 1189, 1190
Hertford, Marquis of, 670
Holland, Lord, 148, 230, 275, 330, 655, 808, 1189
K.
King, Lord, 654
L.
Lauderdale, Earl of, 234, 683, 1144, 1190
Limerick, Earl of, 653, 1251
London, Bishop of, 229, 806
Lord Chancellor (Erskine), 250, 669, 735, 767, 807, 835, 966, 1121, 1250, 1261
M.
Melville, Lord, 833, 866, 867, 948, 965, 1085
Minto, Lord, 866, 867, 873, 874, 963
Moira, Earl of, 34, 154, 605, 657, 771, 1086, 1249
Montrose, duke of, 98, 281, 606; 652, 735, 778
Mulgrave, Lord, 275, 280, 606, 658
N.
Norfolk, Duke of, 147, 834
R.
Radnor, Earl of, 263, 1248
Redesdale, Lord, 966, 1145
Rosslyn, Earl of, 250, 281, 328, 654, 1092
Rutland, Duke of, 1250
S.
Sheffield, Lord, 95, 717, 235
Sidmouth, Lord, 234, 276, 277, 281, 808, 1089, 1144
Sligo, Marquis of, 230
Spencer, Earl, 145, 270, 275, 282, 328, 330, 648, 650, 771, 780, 1084, 1190, 1250
Stanhope, Earl, 250, 809
St. John, Lord, 274
Suffolk, Earl of, 94, 229, 606, 684, 808, 901
Sussex, Duke of, 235,
W.
Westmoreland, Earl of, 33, 230, 274, 275, 648, 649, 684, 772, 801, 802, 807, 874,1088, 1089, 1144, 1248
A.
Abbot, Right Hon. C.;
see
Addington, H., 67, 243, 323, 324, 535, 1151
Alexander, H., 61, 772, 773, 775, 843
Anderson, sir J., 812
Atkins, J., 207
Attorney-General, (sir A. Pigott,) 646, 680, 712, 877,1009, 1093, 1096
B.
Babington, T., 16, 221
Baring, Sir F., 697
Bagwell, J., 16, 774, 813, 842
Baker, W., 263, 525, 570, 861, 1093, 1094, 1124
Bankes, W., 64, 68, 74, 205, 213, 270, 393, 409, 505, 572, 1138, 736, 831, 848,892, 1108
Barham, J., 347, 600
Bathurst, B., 30; 305, 825, 826
Bastard, J., 203, 241, 243, 245, 571, 574, 575, 837, 838, 846, 864, 908, 1138, 1180
Binning, Lord, 849, 912
Blaquiere, Lord De, 60, 127, 326, 411, 668, 912, 971, 1135
Bourne, S., 107, 219, 245, 364, 515, 541, 679, 773, 774, 775, 782, 969
Brodrick, W., 969,
Browne, D, 11
Burton, F., 936
Buxton, Sir R., 52, 81, 111, 219, 257, 395; 410, 524, 572
C.
Calcraft, J., 83, 243, 244, 245, 846
Calvert, N., 528, 850, 865
Canning, G., 28, 91, 208, 210, 321, 420, 454, 543, 601, 640, 675, 829, 913, 921, 1117, 1180
Castlereagh, Lord, 6, 72, 289, 306, 313, 334, 344, 419, 420, 483, 507, 513, 588, 613, 618, 620, 665, 812, 813, 817, 831, 847, 855, 857, 862, 922, 935, 972, 1083, 1173, 1220
Chancellor of the Exchequer,
see
Chancellor of the Irish Exchequer,
see
Coke, T. W., 524
Colborne, R., 968
Combe, H. C., 11, 528, 1020
Corry, I., 44, 59, 334
Crauford, Colonel, 446, 454, 504, 1137, 1142
Creevey, T., 106, 216
Curtis, Sir W., 337, 347., 349, 696, 971
Curwen, J. C., 74
D.
Dent, J., 188, 203, 570, 674, 1106
Dolbin, Sir W., 572
Douglas, Marquis of, 66, 830
Dundas, R. S., 674, 675, 916, 1094, 1101
Dundas, W., 286, 306, 361
E.
Elford, Sir W., 903, 1017, 1137, 1258
Ellison, R., 72, 74, 327, 419, 855, 1142
Erskine, H.;
see
Eyre, Colonel, 129, 849, 907
F
Fitzgerald, J., 872
Fitzpatrick, R.;
see
Folkestone, Lord, 781, 782, 783, 832, 926, 1175, 1183
Fonblanque, J., 907
Foster, J., 41, 45, 49, 58, 61, 331, 333, 520, 522, 575, 576, 774, 775, 843, 873
Fox, Mr. Secretary, 22, 66, 67, 90, 114, 115, 206, 208, 211, 221, 222, 224, 305, 319, 322, 325, 327, 336, 337, 342, 393, 407, 470, 508, 513, 518, 519, 526, 558, 573, 580, 602, 618, 638, 663, 665, 666, 668, 669, 742, 777
Francis, P., 67, 83, 109, 111, 113, 114, 144, 217, 223, 290, 392, 394, 396, 519, 570, 587, 673, 748, 922, 940, 1057, 1094, 1096, 1150
Fuller, J., 27, 72, 111, 112, 262, 263, 674, 1103, 1108
G.
Garland, G., 218
Garlies, Lord, 196, 506
Garrow, W., 748, 749, 750
Gascoyne, General, 591
Geary, Sir W., 221, 258, 263
Giles, D., 260, 910, 1141
Golding, E., 513
Graham, Colonel, 4
Grant, Sir W.;
see
Grant, C., 835, 935, 946, 1083, 1153, 1198, 1244
Grattan, H., 49, 337, 490, 505
H.
Hamilton, Lord A., 82., 511, 513, 571, 575, 830
Hartopp, Sir E., 18, 71
Hawthorne, C. S., 30
Hobhouse, B., 290, 673, 947, 1083, 1094
Holford, G. P., 857, 858
Howick, Lord, 189, 193, 197, 205, 675, 677, 681, 809, 1116, 1119
Hutchinson, C. H., 777, 937
Hudleston, J., 223, 264, 410, 1201, 1219
Hurst, T., 785
Huskisson, W., 107, 108, 112, 245, 246, 249, 258, 259, 260, 350, 361, 570, 574, 579, 611, 613, 850, 877, 878, 879, 1018, 1023, 1121, 1123, 1125, 1126
J.
Jeffery, J., 109, 158, 189, 193, 207, 208, 347
Inglis, Sir H., 217
Johnstone, G., 2, 105, 220, 287, 288, 395, 513, 527, 540, 680, 748, 776, 832, 862, 936, 1094, 1126, 1192, 1197, 1244
Jones, T., 74, 111, 113, 261, 270, 527, 876, 1019, 1021, 1194, 1197, 1200, 1242, 1257
K.
Keek, G., 27
Keene, W., 284, 286, 288, 392, 419, 1082, 1244
Ker, R. G. 112
Kirkwall, Lord, 911
L.
Langham, J., 571
Lascelles, H, 78
Laurence, Dr., 67, 72, 259, 260, 288, 290, 325, 360, 513, 574, 681, 728, 749, 774, 831, 855, 857, 926, 928, 936, 947, 1194, 1241
Lawley, Sir R., 911
Lee, E., 17
Leigh, H. 111
Lefevre, S., 71, 326, 1018
Lemon, Sir W., 505
Leycester, H., 1099
Loftus, General, 454, 909
Long, C, 107, 249, 258, 259, 514, 525, 839, 1043
Lord Advocate of Scotland, (Mr. Erskine,) 29, 538, 860, 861, 912, 916, 992
Lovaine, Lord, 505
M.
Magens, D., 575
Mainwaring, G. B., 970
Manning, W., 262, 601
Markham, Admiral, 190, 193
Markham, O., 204
Martin, H., 822, 936, 947, 1200
Martin, J., 544, 1179
Master of the Rolls, (Sir W, Grant,) 497, 740, 920, 929 987
Matthews, Colonel, 324, 396, 823, 850, 910
Matthews, Dr., 883
M'Dowall, I., 1093
Milbanke, Sir R., 85, 585, 1106
Mildmay, Sir H., 30, 59, 269, 270, 674, 904, 1105
Milner, Sir W., 71, 817
Moore, P., 1014
Mordaunt, C., 77
Morpeth, Lord, 685, 1044, 1188, 1194
Morris, E., 571
N.
Newport, Sir J., 34, 49, 57, 58, 61, 246, 254, 331, 334, 354, 511, 514, 521, 576, 600, 728 772, 773, 774, 790, 843, 865, 872, 937
Norton, General, 454, 504, 559
O.
O'Hara, C., 421, 774
Ossulston, Lord, 1108
P.
Parnell, H., 45, 844
Patteson, J., 258
Paull, J., 64, 68, 105, 215, 216, 242, 245, 247, 361, 366, 393, 394, 482, 510, 518, 519, 520, 561, 610, 685, 686, 748, 749, 751, 776, 777, 778, 781, 782, 783, 786, 799, 825, 832, 895, 925, 932, 934, 935, 936, 938, 940, 1018, 1083, 1179, 1188, 1192, 1184
Perceval, S., 18, 53, 63, 133, 140, 141, 213, 241, 318, 349, 350, 354, 359, 360, 364, 420,478, 483, 507, 508, 622, 664, 667, 668, 697, 824, 825, 845, 861, 864, 923, 934, 1009, 1020, 1038, 1043, 1096, 1102, 1114, 1119, 1141, 1184
Phipps, General, 1106
Petty, Lord H., 12, 29, 50, 55, 61, 87, 106, 108, 110, 114, 141, 143, 218, 238, 241, 242, 244, 245, 246, 248, 255, 259, 260, 261, 270, 293, 294, 295, 305, 306, 357, 360, 361, 363, 395, 410, 482, 483, 513, 514, 523, 525, 542, 569, 571, 576, 578, 579, 596, 600, 609, 610, 615, 661, 667, 674, 790, 791, 812, 831, 832, 861, 864, 875, 876, 878, 879, 896, 902, 903, 923, 925, 946, 968, 986, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1023, 1095, 1104, 1123, 1151, 1178, 1194, 1259
Pigott, Sir A;
see
Plutner, W., 507
Pole, C., 213, 261
Pole, W., 610, 832, 935, 939
Price, Sir C., 218, 346, 696, 969
Prinsep, J., 87, 217, 697, 1083, 1147, 1163, 1209, 1247
Pulteney, Sir J., 123, 323, 436, 454, 515, 574, 814, 845, 862, 865
R.
Robson, R. B., 112, 237, 239, 241, 242, 243, 245, 246, 247, 294, 306, 869, 871, 872, 1174, 1175, 1178, 1181, 1182, 1187, 1190, 1252, 1254, 1259
Romilly, Sir S.;
see
Rose, G. 48, 56, 60, 90, 143, 144, 242, 245, 247, 249, 253, 254, 257, 259, 260, 292, 303, 306, 324, 331, 334, 335, 336, 339, 346, 347, 354, 362, 364, 508, 528, 576, 598, 608, 609, 614, 615, 616, 618, 646, 663, 664, 668, 669, 676, 677, 679, 686, 748, 797, 830, 876, 924, 968, 1009, 1021, 1096, 1104, 1145
Rose, G. H., 559, 916,
Ryder, R., 326, 673, 676, 852, 910, 1095
S.
Secretary at War (General Fitzpatrick), 62, 63, 306, 307, 308, 326, 350, 351, 354., 362, 869, 871, 872, 1133, 1135, 1136, 1178, 1190
Sheridan, R. B., 136, 262, 832, 939, 1096, 1101, 1102, 1110, 1115, 1118
Smith, G., 1083
Smith W., 50, 87, 107, 108, 110, 113, 141, 223, 242, 246, 248, 262, 269, 327, 410, 527, 601, 824, 862, 894, 921, 934, 1104
Solicitor-General (Sir S. Romilly), 500, 590, 839, 937
Speaker (Right Hon. C. Abbot), 188, 208, 242, 353, 394, 395, 409, 668, 673, 676, 791, 782, 825
Stanhope, S., 54, 112, 220, 222, 261, 264, 324, 325, 815, 863, 864
Stanley, Colonel, 1014
Stuart, General, 505
Sullivan, J., 414, 419, 946
T.
Tarleton, General, 71, 145, 308, 309, 324, 326, 349, 350, 508, 537, 586, 611, 613, 1041, 1109
Temple, Earl, 252, 233, 254, 336, 338, 342, 347, 349, 350, 482, 507, 508, 509, 575, 576, 647, 668, 686, 695, 697, 748, 774, 775, 777, 785, 938, 971, 1016, 1136, 1138
Thornton, R., 928, 935, 947, 1146
Tierney, G., 212, 336, 572
Tyrwhitt, T., 204
V.
Vansittart, G., 71
Vansittart, N., 84, 111, 112, 218, 220, 246, 258, 263, 269, 395, 410, 411, 1119, 1175.
Vereker, Colonel, 772, 775, 790
W.
Wallace, T., 529, 684
Wellesley, Sir A., 66, 103, 247, 392, 394, 482, 512, 518, 519, 685, 776, 778, 781, 830, 934, 936, 938, 947, 1060, 1083, 1134, 1198
Whitbread, S., 292, 293, 312, 528, 540, 673, 674, 848, 1097, 1100, 1102, 1118
Wickham, W., 617
Wilberforce, W., 54, 79, 81, 108, 145, 209, 219, 222, 264, 361, 392, 526, 531, 580, 593, 603, 750, 865, 885, 891, 1109, 1151
Williams, sir R., 907, 1109
Windham, Mr. Secretary, 63, 68, 69, 71, 74, 109, 130, 135, 141, 305, 317, 322, 323, 324, 325, 327, 350, 419, 420, 421, 515, 574, 575, 602, 611, 613, 615, 621, 750, 782, 813, 828, 830, 844, 847, 851, 857, 862, 863, 864, 865, 877, 889, 904, 914, 921, 929, 1009, 1018, 1019, 1020, 1021, 1038, 1041, 1095, 1106,1118,1134, 1136, 1139, 1143, 1180, 1185, 1254, 1236
Wood, Colonel, 778, 846, 926, 1015, 1017, 1103, 1147
Wortley, S., 77
Wright, A., 411
Wrottesley, sir J., 85, 782
Wynne, sir W. W., 527, 528
Wynne, C., 837, 838, 849, 911, 1187
Y.
Yorke, C., 62, 63, 68, 127, 140, 141, 210, 305, 322, 323, 421, 438, 844, 851, 852, 865, 921, 922, 1137, 1140
Young, sir W., 81, 345, 596, 620, 681, 696, 823, 970
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