THE
New Series.
VOL. XV.
THE
FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED
THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY OF ENGLAND,
FROM THE EARLIEST PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803."
PUBLISHED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF
T. C. HANSARD.
New Series;
COMMENCING WITH THE ACCESSION OF GEORGE IV.
VOL. XV.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
FROM
THE TWENTIETH DAY OF MARCH,
TO
THE THIRTY-FIRST DAY OF MAY, 1826.
LONDON:
Printed by C. C. Hansard at the Paternoster Rom Press,
FOR BALDWIN, CRADOCK, AND JOY; J. BOOKER; LONGMAN, REES, ORME, AND CO.; J. M. RICHARDSON; KINGSBURY AND CO.; J. HATCHARD AND SON; J. RIDGWAY AND SONS; E. JEFFERY AND SON; RODWELL AND MARTIN; R. H. EVANS; BUDD AND CALKIN; J. BOOTH; AND T. C. HANSARD.
1827.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
NEW SERIES.
I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
III. KING'S SPEECHES.
IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
V. PETITIONS.
VI. REPORTS.
VII. LISTS.
I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
1826.
Page
Mar. 21. Irish Charter Schools
34
Corn Laws
36
Bank Notes payable where issued
40
April 10. Local Payment of Bank Notes Bill
131
11. Preventive Service
150
14. Slavery in the West Indies—Memorial of the Assembly of Antigua
202
Corn Laws
207
Local payment of Bank Notes
210
17. Roman Catholic Emancipation
244
Lord Suffield's Motion on Slavery in the West Indies
248
18. Corn Laws
293
20. Affairs of Greece
384
Petition of West-India Merchants for Protection of their Property
385
21. Roman Catholic Association
532
25. Promissory Notes Local Payment Bill
558
28. Tithes—Parish of St. Olave
721
May 1. Corn Laws—Distress of the Manufacturing Districts
742
2. Corn Laws
774
5. Irish Charter Schools
897
8. Corn Laws—Mr. Jacob's Report
956
Catholic Claims
958
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
March 20. Juries in India Bill
1
Education in Ireland
2
Irish Estimates
24
Tolls and Customs at Fairs and Markets in Ireland
30
21. Forgery of Bank of England Notes
42
State of Prisons in Scotland
45
First Fruits in Ireland
47
Charing Cross Improvement Bill
62
Civil Contingencies—Diplomatic Services
69
22. Patent Rights—Petition of C. Broderip, for better Security of
70
Welch Mining Company Bill
76
Education of the Poor of Ireland
81
National Picture Gallery
85
23. Larceny Bill
85
Criminal Justice Bill
86
Public Charities in Ireland
86
Education of the Poor of Ireland
88
April 6. Liverpool and Manchester Railway Bill
89
Sheriff of Durham Bill
94
Salary of the President of the Board of Trade
95
7. Juries in India Bill
107
Scilly Islands—Petition of the Inhabitants respecting Subscription for their Relief
108
Salary of the President of the Board of Trade
109
10. Salary of the President of the Board of Trade
132
13. Banking System in Scotland
155
Licensing System—Petition of Dr. Edwards
157
Mr. Abercromby's Motion on the State of the Representation of Edinburgh
163
Westminster Abbey
191
Bribery at Elections Bill
202
14. Forgery of Bank Notes
218
Slavery in Antigua—Memorial of Council and House of Assembly
219
Education of the Poor in Ireland—Petition of Roman Catholics
227
Bank Charter Amendment Bill
236
17. London Corn Exchange Bill
265
Corn Laws—Importation of Foreign Grain—London Petition
269
Foreign Shipping—Petition from Sunderland for a Duty on
272
Religious Freedom—Petition respecting
275
Exclusion from Court of Chancery—Petition of G. Farquharson
276
Usury Laws Repeal Bill
280
Exchequer Bills
281
Criminal Justice Bill
284
April 17. Larceny Laws Bill
291
18. Contempt of Court of Chancery—Petition of W. Richardson
298
Mr. Whitmore's Motion on the State of the Corn Laws
318
19. Itinerant Parliaments
371
Resolutions relative to Private-Bill Committees
371
National Gallery
382
20. Mr. Jacob's Report on the Trade in Corn, and on the Agriculture of Northern Europe
396
Petition of West-India Merchants for Protection of their Property
489
Aliens Registration Bill
498
Slave Population in Demerara and Berbice
502
Cruelty to Dogs
530
21. Licensed Victuallers
534
Court of Chancery—Delay in Taxation of Costs
535
Proclamations—Irish Newspapers
539
Church Rates (Ireland) Bill
544
25. Tythes—Petition from the Parish of St. Olave
561
Petition from Roman Catholics of Ireland for Removal of Disabilities
566
West-India Property—Petition of A. H. Beaumont for Protection of
577
Administration of Justice in the West Indies
587
Counsel for Persons prosecuted for Felony
589
26. County Elections
633
Elective Franchise—Petition from Rye for Extension of
636
Burmese War
647
27. Navigation Laws
649
Lord John Russell's Motion for a Reform of Parliament
651
Thames Watermen
715
Stealing in Gardens and Hothouses
717
Irish Church Rates
718
Spring Guns Bill
719
28. Debtor and Creditor Bill
722
Corporate Rights in Ireland
723
Bribery and Corruption Bill
733
Criminal Justice Bill
733
Wrongous Imprisonment Bill
734
Charing Cross Improvement Bill
735
East-India Writers Bill
736
East-India Naval Force Bill
740
May 1. Corn Laws—Distress in the Manufacturing Districts
764
2. Freeholders in Districts Bill
777
Petition of J. Cannell, respecting Refusal of Gold Coin in exchange for Notes
778
Petition of Ship Owners of London, for a Duty on Foreign Shipping
780
Corn Laws
784
4. Currency, and the Corn Laws
831
May 4. State of the Nation
841
5. Exportation of Machinery
908
Petition of Mr. O'Connell, complaining that Lord Norbury is superannuated
911
Corn Laws
914
Corn Laws—Bonded Corn
917
8. Corn Laws
959
Conduct of Lord Charles Somerset—Petition of Bishop Burnett
961
Corn Laws
971
9. Liberty of the Press in India—Petition of Mr. Buckingham
1004
Slave Trading, and the State of the Slaves at the Mauritius
1014
Arrest for Debt
1051
Warehoused Corn Bill
1051
11. Petition of Colonel Bradley, complaining of the Conduct of Colonel Arthur
1098
Liberty of the Press in India Committee—Case of Mr. Buckingham
1111
Exportation of Machinery
1118
Corn Importation Bill
1122
12. Corn Importation Bill
1135
Warehoused Corn Bill
1139
Navigation Laws—State of the Shipping Interest
1144
17. Corn Importation Bill
1203
18. Court of Chancery
1205
19. High Constable of Westminster
1271
Affairs of the Greeks
1271
Protestant Worship in Roman Catholic States
1275
Currency at the Cape of Good Hope—Petition of Lieutenant Colonel Bird
1277
Government Relief to the Distressed Manufacturers
1282
Mr. Brougham's Motion on the State of Slavery in the Colonies
1284
26. Resolutions respecting Bribery at Elections
1401
State of the Currency
1411
III. KING'S SPEECHES.
May 31. KING'S SPEECH at the close of the Session
1443
IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
Finance Accounts for the year ended 5th of January 1825
Appx.
V. PETITIONS.
Mar. 22. PETITION of C. Broderip, for the better Security of Patent Rights
70
April 7. of the Inhabitants of the Scilly Islands respecting Subscription for their Relief
108
13. from Dunse, in favour of the Banking System in Scotland
155
of Dr. Edwards, respecting the Licensing System
157
14. of the Council and House of Assembly at Antigua
223
17. from London, for a free Importation of Foreign Grain
269
from Sunderland, for a duty on Foreign Shipping
272
for Religious Freedom
275
18. of W. Richardson, respecting Imprisonment for Contempt of Court of Chancery
305
19. of the West-India Merchants, for Protection of their Property
386
25. of Roman Catholics of Ireland, for Removal of Disabilities
566
of A. H. Beaumont for Protection of West-India Property
577
26. from Rye, for Extension of the Elective Franchise.
637
May 2. of J. Cannell, respecting Refusal of Gold Coin in Exchange for Notes
778
of Ship Owners of London, for a Duty on Foreign Shipping
780
4. from Paisley, respecting the State of the Currency and the Corn Laws
831
8. of Mr. Bishop Burnett respecting Conduct of Lord Charles Somerset at the Cape of Good Hope
962
19. from White Roothing, in favour of the Greeks
1274
VI. REPORTS.
Mr. Jacob's Report on the Trade in Corn, and on the Agriculture of the North of Europe
400
VII. LISTS.
Mar. 21. LIST of the Minority, on Sir John Newport's Motion respecting the State of the First Fruits Fund in Ireland
62
April 10. LIST of the Majority and also of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Salary of the President of the Board of Trade
148
13. of the Minority, on Mr. Abercromby's Motion on the State of the Representation of Edinburgh
191
18. of the Minority on Mr. Whitmore's Motion on the State of the Corn Laws
370
25. of the Minority on Mr. George Lamb's Motion for granting Counsel to Persons prosecuted for Felony
633
27. of the Minority on Lord John Russell's Motion for a Reform of Parliament
714
May 4. of the Minority on Mr. Hume's Motion on the State of the Navy
897
11. of the Minority in the House of Commons, on the Corn Importation Bill
1135
26. of the Members of the House of Commons, who voted for Lord John Russell's Resolutions respecting Bribery at Elections
1411
of the Members of the House of Commons who voted against Lord John Russell's Resolutions respecting Bribery at Elections
1412
THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.
During the Seventh Session of the Seventh Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Second Day of February 1826, in the Seventh Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Fourth.
1826
1
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 20, 1826.
JURIES IN INDIA BILL.
Mr. Wynn
Mr. Hume
expressed his satisfaction at the introduction of the bill. He hoped, however, that the discretionary power of the judges, in directing who were to be summoned on juries, would extend to the nomination upon juries of persons of half-caste, and of natives. In Ceylon, this practice had been introduced by sir Alexander Johnston, three years ago, and had been followed up since by the judges with the happiest effect. The natives who were summoned upon those juries were found to be as good as any other jurors. Besides, it served to raise them in their own opinion, by thus making them share in the rights and privileges of other British subjects. If a similar provision was introduced into the present bill, it would give the greatest satisfaction to the people of India.
Mr. Wynn
said, that the permission to serve upon juries was granted by the bill to all persons who were not disqualified by some legal offence from serving upon them. Ceylon did not fall within the superintendence of his office. He had understood, however, that the natives there had been permitted to serve on juries, and that the practice had been attended with the best effects. In some instances, where the natives in India had been called upon to attend on coroners' inquests, they had evinced great intelligence and sharpness; and it had, he understood, had the effect
2
Mr. Hume
hoped that the operation of the bill would extend, not merely to the three presidencies, which would make it a benefit to three or four hundred thousand persons; but to the whole of British India, which would render it a blessing to sixty or seventy millions.
EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
Mr. Goulburn
Mr. Spring Rice
rose, in consequence of the notice he had given, for the purpose of moving a resolution, affirming the general principles upon which alone he conceived any national system of Education in Ireland was practicable, or could be effectual. He could assure the House, that he did not take this step with any hostile feeling towards the Irish government, as he was ready to admit, that many very useful and practical measures had been introduced during the present session, which deserved all possible praise. Still less was it his object to add to the jealousies and distrust which, on this question, necessarily existed in Ireland. Most anxious to obtain the acquiescence of the House in his resolution, he would endeavour to exclude from his argument all that was not indispensably necessary for his purpose, and all topics of an irritating nature. Hence he would not at present dwell upon the odious Charter-school principle, nor the atrocious cruelties which it had created
3
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5
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l
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6
7
"I understand that the Catholics have withdrawn children sometimes from the schools.—Has not the objection generally been, that by the introduction of the Scriptures into those schools, the Catholicity of the children might have been endangered? Certainly.—Does not your grace conceive that the individuals of any; church are not only authorised, but bound to object to any system which strikes at the root of their religion? Certainly.— Does not your grace think the exclusion of private judgment is to the full as much an article of the Roman Catholic faith as transubstantiation? I do.—Does your grace consider it possible that the Scriptures, without note and comment, can be received by individuals in schools, without admitting the right of private judgment? I think it certainty implies that.—Do you not conceive that the distribution of the Scriptures has a tendency in Ireland to increase the number of Protestants? Certainly.—Do you conceive that it has had that operation? I rather think it must have had that operation.—Conceding the sincerity of the Roman Catholic Ecclesiastics in their belief in the doctrines of their church, does not your grace conceive they are bound in duty to oppose any system that tends to undermine their church? Undoubtedly."
8
"Dr. Murray proposed that the Holy Scriptures should be read only when the Roman Catholic children were taken apart for the purpose of receiving religious instruction, and he said there could be no possible objection then to reading the gospels of the week; no objection to a harmony of the gospel being used in the general education the children should receive in common."
"Dr. Doyle.—Our objection applies to the authorised version. That we have no aversion to the reading of the Bible by the laity, is best proved by the many editions of the Book, under our express sanction, and to which is prefixed the Rescript of Pius VI. to Martini, in order to show that we, and the Head of our Church with us, exhort the faithful to read the Word of God. In addition to three editions by Coyne, one by Cross, and two by O'Reilly, we have procured a stereotype edition, of low price, to circulate among all. There is nothing said of us, more opposed to truth, than that we are averse to the circulation of the Word of God."
9
10
Mr. Goulburn
said, that in the observations which he felt himself called upon
11
12
l.
l.
13
Mr. Frankland Lewis
defended the conduct of the commissioners, as well as of the Kildare-street Society. Mistakes had been made as to the number of children under the superintendance of the Kildare-street Society; because one party had taken the number actually attending the schools, while others had referred to the number upon the roll of the establishment. The Kildare-street Society had made its report founded upon the latter; and he was convinced that no intentional misrepresentation was intended. Whatever might be the result of this question, he hoped the vote would not be withheld from any disparagement of the individual members of the institution. They were men of the highest probity, and of the utmost zeal in carrying the beneficial objects they had in view into execution. The only proper principle, in his conception, upon which they all could vote for this grant was this: "Do not destroy that which is in actual operation, before you have provided another to supply its place." He did not thereupon say that they ought to confine their view to the present system. The only principle upon which he, and those who agreed with him, supported the system, was merely to keep it in operation, but not to extend it; and that was the only one upon which it was necessary to vote at present. The vast importance of spreading education generally over Ireland was unquestionable; and nothing could be of more importance than that the education should be such as to eradicate the seeds of jealousy and dislike to each other, which too generally prevailed in the minds of the Irish Protestant and
14
15
16
17
Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald
said, that there appeared to be no difference in principle as to the mode of bestowing education on the people of Ireland; for the desire of the government was, that instruction should be applied without interference with the religious principles of the scholars: at least, such was the doctrine that night inculcated by an hon. member, who might be considered the organ of the Irish government on that subject. The hon. gentleman objected to committing die education of the Catholic population to a body exclusively Catholic; yet the votes then on the table proposed nothing more nor less than to give it to a body exclusively Protestant. It appeared from the report of the commissioners, that of the Catholic children now receiving instruction in Ireland, 5,000 only were educated at schools supported by parliamentary grants; and that 37,000 were educated gratuitously, without any assistance, direct, or indirect, from these funds; so that education was at present going against the principle maintained by the hon. gentleman, namely, that it should not be committed to the management of a body exclusively Catholic. The only difference then was, that at present the superintendence of the education was in the hands of those over whom no control could be exercised; and that he (Mr. Fitzgerald), and those who thought with him, were anxious that it should be placed under the direction of a responsible board. He was free to admit the fact stated by the hon. gentleman opposite, that books of an improper nature had crept into some of the Irish schools; but this applied only to those pauper seminaries which were ready to catch at whatever books came within their reach. It was therefore not to be wondered at, that certain publications were found scattered through them, forming a strong contrast to those furnished by the Education Society. He begged, notwithstanding what fell from the hon. gentleman opposite, to assure the House, that he knew many schools supplied with the most approved books, in which several hundred children were educated under the direction of their priests. It might, perhaps, be right to substitute another mode of education for that which he had just described; but unless it was such as would conciliate the Catholic population, and secure the cooperation of their priests, it must inevitably fell, and thus defeat the object of those who desired to have the two sects
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19
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he saw so little substantial difference in the sentiments of members who had taken part in the present debate, that he was sorry, that on what appeared to him to be a mere matter of form, so much opposition should be excited. All parties were agreed, that no interference ought to take place with the religious principles of the scholars. Two things, then, remained to be considered; namely, under what su-
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Mr. M. Fitzgerald
said, he had never expressed an opinion, that religion should form no part of education. All he had said was, that children should be educated in religious opinions by the respective teachers of the religions to which they belonged, in places set apart for the purpose.
Mr. Peel
said, that Dr. Murray was disposed to go much further; for he was of opinion, that selections might be made from the Bible, on which both creeds might agree.
Sir J. Newport
said, that the resolution before the House simply went to affirm a proposition contained in the fourteenth Report of the commissioners; namely that no system of education could succeed which interfered with the religious feelings of the people. Now he could not conceive how the affirming of that resolution could cast a slur on the society of Kildare-street. A complaint had been made that improper books were used in the schools. This only showed the general wish of the people to acquire education. An hon. friend of his, on visiting a school in Ireland, among other singular school-books, found Roderick Random in the hands of a boy. He immediately went to the clergyman, and asked why such a book was permitted. The answer was, that the clergy were poor, the parents were poor, and the boys brought whatever books they could find. If religion was to be taught in the schools, he could see no objection to set apart one day in the week for that purpose, and have the children instructed in separate classes. He sincerely hoped, that the right hon. gentleman would not oppose his hon. friend's motion; for if it were negatived, the consequences might be most injurious.
Mr. Goulburn
said, he could see no good that would arise from affirming a general proposition on which they were all agreed; and much harm might be done out of doors if the House should divide on a question of this nature.
Mr. Butterworth
expressed his surprise at the opinions delivered by an hon. member below him. If the Bible were a bad book, it might be well to exclude it; but if it was the work of inspiration, it
23
Mr. Hutchinson
said, it was in vain to think of any union of the systems of education in Ireland so long as there was an effort to mingle with the general scheme of education the principle of proselytism. He begged to observe that the hon. member for Dover was in a state of gross and scandalous ignorance in what he had said about the Bible in the Irish language. Did that hon. member know how few Irish gentlemen could read Irish? There was not one in every thousand of the Catholic peasantry able to read Irish. In Fact the language was almost lost, for very few indeed could read it. But the statement of the hon. member for Dover was not only ignorant, but cruel, when he represented that the catholic clergy negated the education of their flocks. If he hon. member wished to know why
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Mr. Spring Rice
briefly replied, and declined pressing his motion.
IRISH ESTIMATES.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Goulburn moved, "That the sum of 19,500
l.
Mr. John Smith
objected to this vote. The system of corruption and mismanagement which prevailed ought to be cor-
25
Mr. Goulburn
said, that the present vote was reduced as compared with the former vote, and the object of such reduction was, to provide for the gradual abolition of these charter schools. Every effort had been made, and would continue to be made, to prevent the recurrence of such transactions as had been described, but the commissioners found it difficult to get rid of all these abuses at once. As to the cruelties of former periods, the cases had been referred to the law officers of the Crown, and by them proceedings had been instituted, which were now in progress at the several assizes. The conduct of the schoolmasters had been brought under the consideration of the commissioners of education, who had diligently investigated every case of cruelty, and he hoped, at no distant period, to be able to announce an effectual reformation. The vigilance of the committee of fifteen, and of the government would be exerted, to prevent a recurrence of the abuses complained of.
Sir John Newport
said, that the committee of fifteen were far from having used that diligence which the country had a right to expect from them. On looking at the estimate, he found a charge for the catechists, who were to report monthly to the committee, but who, as it appeared in evidence, had not for the space of nine months made a single report. Who were these catechists for whom this charge was made? They were the parochial clergy, and were therefore bound to catechise the children of their parishes without gratuity or remuneration. Were those who had already been found to neglect this important duty again to receive salaries for doing nothing? With regard to the duties of the committee of fifteen, how had those duties been performed? During the space of a whole month, their secretary had contrived to evade, by a series of subterfuges amounting to little short of perjury, the various interrogatories put to him, as to the progress of the com-
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l.
Mr. Goulburn
said, it could not be disputed, that great abuses had been practised, but measures bad been taken to correct them. He would repeat his
27
Mr. Hume
said, he was anxious to call the serious attention of the House to the situation in which they were placed with regard to the whole system of Irish expenditure. The country was forced to submit to the greatest extravagance in these disbursements; and he knew of no proceeding that placed the conduct of the Irish government in a more censurable point of view, than the subject now before the House. In the year 1821, he had cautioned the House in vain against the improvidence of this grant. The greater part of the sums allotted to that part of the empire for miscellaneous services, which amounted in the whole to 371,589
l.
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Mr. Goulburn
contended, that the whole sum was, in effect, less than it had been in former years. The hon. gentleman, in making his statements, seemed to forget altogether that the institution had been supported at one time by taxes which were levied from the people in Ireland and applied to this particular purpose; and that when these taxes were repealed, it became necessary for the government by grant, to supply the deficiency.
Mr. Monck
reprobated the practice of calling upon the people of England to support those institutions in Ireland, which
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Mr. Grattan
defended the conduct of the Irish landholders. Some of the schools in Dublin were as ably conducted, and as beneficial in their operation, as any establishment in England. He condemned the doctrine of the hon. member for Reading, who would allow the absentee landlords to take all, and give nothing to Ireland in return.
Sir John Newport,
after repeating his sense of the uselessness of the schools, and the waste of the public money, moved, in compliance with the suggestion of the hon. member for Montrose, an amendment, "That the sum of 19,500
l.
Mr. John Smith
said, that, from the acts of cruelty which had been proved against the masters of those schools, and from the gross misapplication of money brought home to the Secretary and others under the Commission, he should give his vote for the amendment, to fix a stigma upon their conduct, and mark the sense of parliament as to their proceedings.
Mr. Goulburn
could not consent to punish the commissioners for the impropriety or misconduct of a few of their servants. As the reduction would be effected as soon as possible, any such power to the lord lieutenant could be productive of no possible good.
Sir John Newport
then declared his intention to take the sense of the House upon the question.
Mr. F. Lewis
was of opinion, that the amendment would not accomplish the object it proposed to have in view.
The committee divided; for the original motion 42; for the amendment 19; majority 23.
30
TOLLS AND CUSTOMS AT FAIRS AND
On referring to vol. xiv, p. 439, it will be seen that Mr. Spring Rice moved, on the 16th of February, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to give directions, that a Commission should issue to inquire into the Tolls and Customs collected in Fairs, Markets, and Sea-ports in Ireland." The following is a correct report of what the honourable member said, in introducing the said motion:
Mr. Spring Rice
said, he rose, in pursuance of the notice which he had given, to bring under the notice of the House a subject of very considerable importance, as it affected the trade, manufactures, and industry of Ireland. The question was no less a one than whether there should continue to be exercised in Ireland a power of taxation, administered by persons who, practically speaking, were irresponsible, and who scrupled not to exact for their own profits sums exceeding in annual amount many hundred thousand pounds, and charged in a manner as illegal as it was impolitic. The subject had been brought under the notice of the committees of both Houses of parliament, and was recommended by the report, as deserving the most serious and early consideration. He would, in a few words, describe the abuse of which he complained. At fairs, markets, and seaports in Ireland, tolls and customs were charged upon the sale and transfer of all commodities, including articles of the first necessity, thereby restraining trade, and enhancing the price upon the consumer. No man could defend the principle of such a mode of taxation; and if it were collected for the benefit of the state, he felt a confidence that his motion would have been anticipated by the Board of Trade, and that a repeal of such absurd and mischievous burthens would have been proposed by the ministers of the Crown. In our days, no man would continue to vindicate taxes similar to the alcovalas in Spain, the octroi of France, or the Austrian imposts in Northern Italy. And yet the local burthens of Ireland were infinitely less defensible. The House would scarcely credit the extent to which these exactions had been carried, not only without all law, but contrary to all law, the mode of collecting them being productive of still greater mischief. Nor had the evil yet fully developed itself. In
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 21 1826.
IRISH CHARTER SCHOOLS.
The Bishop of Ferns
Lord King,
after adverting to the voluminous evidence of the committee of 1815, complained that the Incorporated Society had not attended to the recommendations in the report on that occasion. It appeared that the usher of Stradbally school who had been dismissed at the instance of Mr. Leslie Foster, one of the commissioners, had since been promoted to a more lucrative situation. In the memorial which the usher had sent to the Board in Dublin he spoke of the gentleman by whom he had been dismissed, in very disrespectful terms, describing him as "a Mr. Leslie Foster." The members of the board, however, seemed resolved to encourage him, their object being to decry every one who wished to correct abuses. The cause of the usher's dismissal was cruelty to the children. But how had the board acted? They advanced him to a more lucrative situation, instead of marking their sense of his conduct in the way that it deserved.
The Bishop of Ferns
admitted, that the conduct of the individual in question had been very censurable. Three indictments for cruelty had been preferred against him, and he was tried the other day before the lord chief baron in the town of Maryborough. The jury was composed partly of Catholics and partly of Protestants, and they acquitted him on the first and second indictment without leaving the box, and the third was consequently abandoned. He did not know that in point of form he could move for the judge's notes of the trial, but if that were allowed, he should wish to do so. The
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Lord King
thought it much better that the right rev. prelate should give notice of a regular discussion on this subject than indulge in desultory observations with regard to it. It was said that there were twenty boys who had heard references made to St. Paul, but in his opinion there were very few who had heard one word about Job. He could see no advantage whatever that was likely to result from this sort of superficial knowledge.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he had B motion connected with this subject to submit to their lordships, which would have the effect of bringing one part of the information required before them. He wished to see a return laid on their lordships' table of the number of scholars in all the charter schools of Ireland, distinguishing the different religious persuasions. He agreed with the noble lord, that this question ought not to be discussed without a regular notice, and he should therefore abstain from making any remarks. He must, however, express his hope, that some satisfactory explanation could be given of what had been stated in parliament of the past proceedings in the chartered schools; and which showed the existence of a degree of cruelty and mismanagement quite extraordinary and, when it was recollected under what system of inspection those schools had been placed by parliament, quite unexpected. He thought an inquiry was necessary, and he hoped it would be an effectual inquiry. Something was necessary for the satisfaction of the individuals themselves,
36
CORN LAWS.
Lord King
said, he had to present to their lordships a petition against the Corn-laws from one of the largest parishes in the metropolis. The petitioners stated, that they had confidence in the good intentions of his majesty's government. He also had confidence in ministers, and he was glad to see that they were likely to receive real support from without; for otherwise they might expect little from within parliament. He sincerely trusted they would not be deterred from proceeding in their course, and that the public would not slacken their efforts; for, unless ministers were supported by petitions, it would be impossible for them to carry their good intentions into effect. In consequence of the part he had taken on this question, a great deal of advice had been offered to him by different persons. Some had requested him to desist, hinting that his speeches were like sermons in Lent, and repeated as often. Others were of opinion that he had a vicious propensity to make corn cheap; and as they thought that a vicious propensity in him, he must suppose that they considered a disposition to make corn dear a virtuous propensity. A third party complained that he treated these worthy Corn-laws like a miscreant at the bar of the Old Bailey, giving them all kinds of bad names. He was blamed for stigmatizing them with more aliases than ever was given to a thief on his trial: for he had called them the Corn-laws, alias the bread-tax, alias the dead-weight, alias the landlords' tax, and, worst of all, alias the job of jobs. Now, as so much kindness had been shown to him in the way of advice, he wished to give the House some good advice in return. In the first place, he would beg of noble lords to reflect what the situation of the country would be if the price of corn were to rise considerably? That such an event might happen
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Lord Calthorpe
thought, that the discussion of the subject had better be postponed to the next session. He did not think it was for the interest of the landlords to maintain the present Corn-laws, but that importation, under a moderate duty, would be more to their advantage. He did not conceive that those laws had been proposed from any interested motive* On the contrary, he believed that they were submitted to parliament under the honest conviction that they were not only good for the landed interest, but for the public at large. There certainly would be great evil in allowing the question to remain long in its present state. If any delusion existed on the subject, the best way to remove it would be to submit the question to the investigation of a com-
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The Earl of Limerick
thought, that the first noble lord's obvervations, though very inflammatory, carried with them their own cure. He was struck with the singular coincidence between the noble lord's speech, and the name of the place whence the petition came. It was the petition of the parish of St. Luke, and much of what had fallen from the noble lord appeared to be strongly impregnated with the quality which was generally supposed to abound in that parish. The noble lord had been very free with his advice; but he was satisfied that both his majesty's ministers and the House had too much sense to take it.
Lord Clifden
approved of the determination of his majesty's ministers to postpone the discussion of the corn question to the next session. The consideration of the currency occupied parliament to such a degree as would render it very inconvenient to enter upon a revision of the Corn-laws. He hoped, however, that the subject would be brought forward early next session, and that importation on a moderate duty would be allowed. He understood that the gentlemen who had been sent abroad to make inquiries, were of opinion that no such quantity of foreign corn could be introduced as would hurt the agricultural interest. Some gentlemen said that the agricultural interest would be ruined by importations. He did not believe this. The ports had been opened for barley, and since that period, barley had been at 52
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Ordered to lie on the table.
BANK NOTES PAYABLE WHERE ISSUED.
The Marquis of Lansdown
rose to call their lordships' attention, and particularly the attention of the noble earl opposite, to a topic which had been mentioned on a former occasion. He alluded to the practice of many bankers issuing promissory notes of making them payable at some place distant from where they were issued. This was a practice which could not be defended. He knew that by the bill which had lately received their lordships' sanction, bankers would at the end of three years be obliged to make their notes payable at the place where they were issued; but he thought this evil ought not to be allowed to continue so long. When the practice had been mentioned on a former occasion, the noble earl opposite had doubted whether it was so extensive as was stated. Now, he had heard of fifty-five banks which issued promissory notes that were not payable out of London. He had heard, indeed, that one bank, as far off as Aberdeen, made its notes payable in London. The branch banks of the Bank of Ireland issued the notes of that Bank payable only in Dublin, and circulated them all over the south of Ireland; at present those notes were at a discount, and in the large towns of the south, such as Cork, could not be disposed of without the loss of 4d. This he knew was the case within the last fortnight. Great mischief must result from this practice, and the legislature ought not to allow its existence. He was at a
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The Earl of Liverpool
said, he should be very ready to give the noble marquis any assistance in his power in obtaining the information he wished, but he did not know how it could be accomplished. It was desirous on many accounts to correct the evil he had pointed out; but, as the law stood, he did not see how it could be immediately corrected. A clause had been added to the bill, which had lately received their lordships' assent, and which would in a day or two receive the royal assent, by a noble friend of his, compelling all banks, at the period when that act came into operation, to pay their notes at the places where they were issued. But it was not supposed possible, with any regard to what he might call vested rights, to make that clause immediately operative. If the notes were now to be stamped, he should say, certainly, that none should be issued to bankers who did not come under that obligation; but the notes were already stamped, and most of those which were to circulate for the next three years were most probably already in circulation. It had, therefore, been thought, that the clause could not be brought into operation before the period assigned for the act to take effect. Agreeing in principle with the noble marquis, he thought their lordships might, in any bill which was brought in to regulate the issues of notes either in Scotland or Ireland, make such a clause a part of the bill, and it might be brought immediately into operation. Even if they were not to legislate in other respects for Scotland and Ireland, they might legislate in this.
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The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he was sensible that there was a difficulty in the way of any proposition on the subject with respect to England; but as to Ireland and Scotland he saw none. As much evil might arise in those countries from the circulation of small notes not payable at the place where they were issued, he would, after the Easter recess, call their lordships' attention to the subject. This he considered indispensable, whatever might be the nature of any measure which might emanate from the committee.
The Lord Chancellor
said, that in the last session but one, a case had been brought before their lordships by writ of error, in which a promissory note or bill of exchange had been made payable in London. A question had arisen, whether it was sufficient that a demand for payment of that note had been made in the country, or whether it must be made in London? On this subject the judges were divided; several of them thought it was not necessary that the demand should be made in London; but the majority, and their lordships were of the same opinion, thought that it was necessary to make the demand in London, and that the declaration should contain an averment that it had been made. But since that period, an act had been passed, making promissory notes payable in London, demandable elsewhere, unless it was expressly stated on the note that it was payable only in London. If this were the case, country bank notes fell under this law; and if not made payable only in London, payment of them might be demanded at the place where they were issued. He would examine the law on the subject, to see if the opinion he had thrown out was correct, and would report the result to their lordships.
The Earl of Limerick,
as an Irishman, was thankful to the noble marquis for having brought this subject before their lordships. The notes of the Dublin Bank were payable only in Dublin.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 21 1826.
FORGERY OF BANK OF ENGLAND NOTES.
Lord Folkestone
presented a petition, very numerously signed, from the inhabitants of Rochdale, praying for an alteration of the Corn Laws, a reform in parliament, and a reduction of taxation.
Colonel Johnson
warmly supported the
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Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that he knew nothing of these trials or convictions but through the same channels of communication which were open to the public.
Mr. Grenfell
observed, that the conviction of six unfortunate men for the crime of forgery of one-pound notes was, he feared, but the recommencement of that frightful system of temptation to forgery, and consequent execution from which the country had been for some time at breathing. He begged to ask his majesty's government, whether the new circulation of Bank of England one-pound notes was to be as likely to expose the country to the frightful evils of which he had spoken, as it had been hitherto? Had the Bank done, or were they about to do, any thing which would make the forgery of their notes more difficult? He admitted the impossibility of making an inimitable note, but much could be done to enhance the difficulty of imitating those at present in circulation. It was a fact, that forgeries of country bank notes were very unfrequent. But why was this, except that the country bankers took greater pains to guard their paper against mutation? He hoped that the Bank would feel the serious responsibility under which it lay, and devise some means of diminishing the temptation to the most frightful of crimes.
Mr. Wells
agreed as to the great facility with which Bank of England notes might be imitated. It was incumbent on the Bank of England to endeavour, by every means in their power, to limit these facilities. The notes of the Bank of Ireland were not so easily imitated, and forgeries of them were comparatively unfrequent.
Mr. Irving
said, that the Bank of England were as anxious to put a stop to forgery as any body could be. In proof of that, they had appointed a committee to inquire into the subject, which was un-
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Mr. Home Drummond
thought it un-candid to charge upon the notes of the Bank of England those faults which were incident to all bank notes. The notes of the Scotch banks were not better executed; and as for the country bank notes, nothing could be more clumsy or worse executed. The frequent forgeries upon the Bank of England were, therefore, not to be accounted for otherwise than by reference to the facility of imitating the note, and he should say that the extent of circulation of that note over all others, and more particularly in London, and the quickness with which it circulated, were more plausible explanations of the disparity. Such was the ingenuity displayed in the forgery of notes, that it was impossible to prevent it.
Mr. Ellice
hoped, that the fact which had been stated that night would have the effect of making the Bank pause before they proceeded to take advantage of the clause in the bill just passed, and again deluge the country with a material so pregnant with temptation to crime. For three years the public had got rid of this pernicious circulation, which as soon as it again showed its head, produced fresh crimes and fresh executions. For the sake of humanity, he hoped this would be the last instance of so prodigal a sacrifice of human life.
Sir M. W. Ridley
admitted, that it was impossible to produce a perfectly inimitable bank note, but, from the specimens he had seen, he was clearly of opinion that the present note might be very much improved. It was certainly unfair to say, that because Bank of England notes were more often, they were therefore more easily imitated. It should be recollected, that these notes were differently circumstanced from all others. The notes of country bankers circulated within a small compass, and the handwriting of the banker was known, perhaps, to every man in trade within the particular district. But it was not so with the Bank of England note. He did not think that from any superiority in the form of the note, nor even by getting rid of a paper circulation, we should put an end to crime; for
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Mr. Secretary Peel
said, it was ridiculous to compare the quantity of crime committed by coining with that committed by forgery. For the last three years the system had had a fair trial, and what was the result? That some convictions had undoubtedly taken place for coining, but in no proportion to the number convicted of forgery during the paper system. At the same time it should be recollected, that at no period were the five-pound notes out of circulation, and that one of the cases at Lancaster was for forging a five-pound note. He was ready to admit that the one-pound note was more easily passed away, and that many would try their hand at that, who would be afraid to attempt a larger one. The question here was, whether or not the Bank were to blame? The impossibility of making an inimitable note being admitted, how could the Bank be reproached, more particularly after the statement made by one of the Directors, that in the attempt to enhance the difficulty of forging a note, they had expended no less than 80,000
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Ordered to lie on the table.
STATE OF PRISONS IN SCOTLAND.
The Lord Advocate
of Scotland said, that in making his proposed motion, he had to inform the House, that the prisons of Scotland were entirely under the guardianship of certain royal boroughs, which were not possessed of revenues sufficient for their maintenance. The consequence was, that the gaols of that country were of the worst possible description, and their management of them a disgrace to any country. The apartments were always
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Mr. Hume
said, he rose to second the motion of the learned lord with pleasure, because it was a disgrace to Scotland that such a system should have been allowed to continue so long. The only reason he could assign for its continuance was, that the prisons were in general empty, and the number of prisoners so few, that their condition excited little attention. The learned lord would do great good by inquiry.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that it would be highly convenient if the smaller jurisdictions of Scotland would agree to unite, six or seven of them together, in the erection of one large and convenient gaol The more extensive a gaol was, the more certain it was to be well managed; both because it could afford to pay proper officers, and because public curiosity was excited, and it was sure to be visited more
47
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
FIRST-FRUITS IN IRELAND.
Sir John Newport
rose to call the attention of the House to the state of the First-Fruits Fund in Ireland, with a view to improve and render it more effectual. The right hon. baronet then proceeded to give a history of the establishment of this fund, and of the uses to which it was intended to be applied. The act of queen Anne declared that the first-fruits were to be appropriated to the purposes of building and repairing churches, providing glebes wherever they were wanting, and also for the more liberal support of the clergy. At the period when this fund was formed, there was also collected in Ireland, from the different benefices, one-twentieth, and from the different benefices in England, one-tenth of their valuation, which were to be applied to the same purposes. The valuation of that period, with respect to Ireland, had remained the same ever since, although it was manifest, that the real value of livings must have been greatly increased. The consequence was, that the sums which the clergy ought really to pay for the building and repair of churches were obliged to be supplied by the state at large. In the act of parliament which related to England, a clause was inserted, with respect to the propriety of having new valuations, at particular periods, which had not found its way into the Irish statute on the same subject; the consequence of which was, that no new valuation had been made in that country. Now, it appeared to him quite evident, that, from time to time, as the value of the living increased, the amount of the first-fruit should be increased also. This was a deduction perfectly clear in his mind; because it was a grant of the property of the Crown, made by the Crown for the better support of the church and of the church establishment, and not for
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"That it appears just and equitable that this branch of royal revenue, liberally appropriated by the Crown for salutary objects, specially connected with the maintenance of the church of Ireland (at the same time that a great remission of burthens affecting the clergy thereof was granted by the royal munificence), should be rendered actually efficient for the attainment of the valuable purposes for which the grant was made, and that the deficiency created by this inadequate valuation should be no longer supplied by the imposition of additional charge on the body of the people by parochial taxation, or on the funds of the United Kingdom by parliamentary grant."
Mr. Goulburn
said, that, as this question had already been under discussion four different times, he might perhaps be excused, if he abstained altogether from following the right hon. baronet through the course of argument which he had thought proper to pursue, and trust to the opinions which the House had formerly expressed upon the subject. The principle upon which the right hon. baronet wished to act would involve the interests not only of the clergy of Ireland and England, but also the interests of many other orders of the state. The principle upon which the right hon. baronet wished to act was this, that the clergy of Ireland should be obliged to build and repair all the churches in that country, out of the incomes which they received as a reward for the discharge of their sacred duties. The right hon. baronet stated, that the archbishops of Ireland did not pay an equal portion of first-fruits with those of England; and therefore he proposed going into a committee to throw back
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Mr. Spring Rice
complained of the mode of argument taken up by the opposers of the motion, and observed, that in reference to what were called the usurpations of the older times, no notice was taken of the usurpations by the clergy of those divisions of the tithes which were appro-
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Mr. Dawson
said, that the proposition of the right hon. baronet was equally opposed by law and by justice. He had read over the statutes, and, though he did not presume upon giving a competent opinion, it appeared to him that they bore no construction like that put upon them by the right hon. baronet. It was never the intention of the legislature to impose frequent valuations of livings upon the clergy. There had, in fact, been no more than four valuations of livings from the time of Henry 8th down to that hour; and all those valuations were of livings which had never been valued before. The commission in the reign of Henry 8th related only to a small portion of Ireland; that under Elizabeth included merely livings not before valued; that in the reign of James was made under similar circumstances; and that under Charles was occasioned by certain livings having previously escaped valuation. The commission in the time of James 1st contained positive directions not to touch the livings which were valued before, and not to go to the full valuation of any livings. There was no question but that the right to the first-fruits was the settled possession of the Crown, and being then so settled, it was equally plain from those instructions, that the king only wished to have the sums fixed which were to be paid into the Exchequer, and that those were to be the sums to be paid in from that time for ever after. Moreover a great portion of the livings at the time of the valuations taken under queen Elizabeth were under 6
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Mr. Lockhart
said, he had expected the right hon. baronet to make out a very strong case, and was now prepared to acknowledge, that, from the weight of argument on the other side, he felt convinced that the proposition could not be adopted. Why should they seek for a principle to justify them in that which was on every side called the usurpation of the pope? If the pope had usurped any portion of the property of the church, like that of the first-fruits, the Crown did right in resuming it; but then it ought to be given back to the church. It was upon this feeling that the Crown seemed to have acted. Unquestionably, the rightful possession of that property, after the resumption, was in the Crown. Henry 8th had given up a part of it to laymen, from whom it could not be reclaimed; and the right of the Crown to the remainder had been qualified by the sovereigns who came after him, until it had been settled on its present footing. It would indeed, be taking a heavy stride now to revive the claim of the Crown to the utmost amount of valuations to be taken in the present day. Reference had been made by the hon. member for Limerick, to what he called other usurpations by the clergy upon the four-fold division of the tithes. But then the law and the cir-
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Mr. Hume
said, that the two honourable Secretaries had not argued this question with their usual candour. The one had contended that the motion was consistent with neither law nor justice, and the other had endeavoured to lead the House away, by calling its attention to the danger to which the resolutions exposed every other species of property. Now, he could remember when it was asserted in that House, that every question should stand by itself, and upon its own peculiar merits; and that no other should be decided by it, unless the circumstances were precisely similar. Now, nothing could be more unlike than the circumstances of the two churches of England and Ireland. It was not for him to decide whether Henry 8th was legally entitled to act as he had done, and to appropriate ecclesiastical property at the Reformation, but certain it was, that the practice of the country had confirmed him in the possession of it. He gave portions of it to laymen, whose representatives still retained it; and other portions to the church, which derived its title only from the donor. The question, then, reduced itself to this —Did any subsequent sovereign of this country, queen Anne for instance, relinquish what she was entitled to in this respect, as far as regarded Ireland, for certain purposes, or did she not? Now, that queen gave up her claim to first-fruits and twentieths in Ireland, for the express purpose that the money should be applied to the erection and repair of churches. He asked, then, whether it had been so applied, or whether it had not? The answer was, that to the extent to which the collection had been made, the money
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Sir R. H. Inglis
objected to the statement of the right hon. mover, that the church lands of Ireland amounted to 700,000 acres; but admitting that amount to be correct, the right hon. baronet must be aware that the greater part of that land was held under long leases, sometimes of fifty, sixty, or a hundred years. His sentiments on the present question had been so fully anticipated by his right hon. friend the secretary for Ireland, and so clearly and eloquently stated by him, that he would add nothing in support of those observations, but should content himself with saying, that he entirely concurred in the view which his right hon. friend had take a of the subject.
Sir J. Newport
said, in reply, that the question came to this simple point—whether a certain revenue given by the Crown to the church for a specific purpose, was to be rendered available for the purpose for which it was intended, or the people
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The House divided: For the Resolution 21; Against it 48; Majority 27.
List of the Minority.
Abercromby, hon. J.
Ord, W.
Calcraft, J.
Palmer, C. F.
Fitzgerald, M.
Philips, G.
Grattan, J.
Robinson, sir G.
Gordon, R.
Rice, T. S.
Griffith, J. W.
Smith, J.
Hamilton, lord A.
Sebright, sir J.
Hutchinson, hon. C.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Hume, J.
Whitmore, W.
Milton, visc.
Martin, J.
TELLER,
Marjoribanks, S.
Newport, sir J.
The second resolution was negatived without a division.
CHARING CROSS IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Mr. Arbuthnot
, in rising to move for leave to bring in a bill for making several Improvements in the neighbourhood of Charing-cross and the Strand, said, that, before he entered into any statements connected with those improvements, he
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Sir M. W. Ridley
said, he did not mean to oppose the motion; but merely rose to suggest the propriety of improving that part of the Strand called Exeter Change, which required improvement more than any other. Every person acquainted with that building must have marked the great inconvenience it occasioned to the trade of the metropolis, and he was satisfied that no man could deny that it was a grievous nuisance. When such extensive alterations were about to take place in the very neighbourhood, he put it to the right hon. gentleman, whether he could pass over the obstruction which this building occasioned, and whether it would not be most desirable to introduce such alteration in his intended bill as would have the effect of including it in the purchases about to be made, for the ornament and advantage of the metropolis? Such an alteration would, he was convinced, meet the approbation of parliament and the public. While he was on this subject, he would call the attention of the right hon. gentleman to a letter which had appeared in several morning papers, signed, "An old Inhabitant of Mary-la-Bonne." Every one would acknowledge, that all due precautions should be taken to preserve the trees in those plantations which adorned the park at the northern extremity of the town. But still it appeared to him, that a reasonable care of those plantations was by no means incompatible with the admission of the public to those enjoyments of pure air and exercise in which they had formerly been indulged; and he hoped that those who had the superintendence of the improvements would take the subject into consideration, and adopt some means of laying the park open to the public. Before he sat down, he begged to observe, that the style of building in Regent-street, which had been formed from the plans of that able architect who was to conduct the projected alterations at Charing-cross, deserved his unqualified approbation. There might be some difference of opinion upon particular erections; but, taking it in one view as the principal street of the metropolis, he was convinced there were few who would not confess, that it reflected high honour on the architect, and afforded a satisfactory proof of his taste and judgment.
Mr. Arbuthnot
said, that he did not
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Mr. Hume
did not object to any portion of the plans of the right hon. gentleman; all he would say was, that he hoped they would not require any portion of the public money. He was satisfied that the whole could be done by the sale of Crown lands without any other assistance. In the absence of the hon. member for Westminster, who meant to call the attention of the House to the subject, he begged to protest against the continuance of any barracks in the centre of Westminster. Every person in the neighbourhood considered those barracks a downright nuisance.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
CIVIL CONTINGENCIES—DIPLOMATIC
The report of the committee of Supply was brought up. On the resolution, "That 200,000
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Mr. Hume
said, he could not refrain from entering his protest against charges for diplomatic services. The expense which we were at in this department would appear immense, if contrasted with the expense which other countries incurred in this particular. The embassy at Paris, last year, cost the country no less than 30,000
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Mr. Canning
wished to know whether it was the hon. member's object to negative the resolution, or merely to record his opinion that this expenditure was deserving of censure. If the latter, he conceived the hon. member was proceeding in a wholly informal manner.
The Speaker
observed, that, from the expressions of the hon. gentleman's amendment, he conceived it was not possible for him now to propose it. They were considering the report of a committee which had taken the resolution into its consideration before, and the hon. gentleman would see that they could not introduce into the resolution adopted by that committee, any matter which had not then been submitted to its examination.
Mr. Hume
said, that as there seemed to be some irregularity in his amendment, he would withdraw it.
The resolution was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 22 1826.
PATENT RIGHTS—PETITION OF C.
Lord Palmerston
presented a petition from Charles Broderip, esq. of the city of Westminster, setting forth,
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The Attorney-General
allowed, that it was of great importance that any defects in the law relating to patent rights should be remedied, and that it was the duty of the House, as far as was consistent with policy and sound reason, to afford every protection and facility of operation to those who devoted their time, their fortune, and their talents, to improvements which were likely to become useful to their country, and beneficial to mankind. He did not, however, agree that all the
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Mr. Maberly,
while he admitted in its fullest extent the importance of the subject, could not agree that the protection ought to be held inviolable in every instance to the extent which the patentees considered likely to remunerate them. On the contrary, he believed that, in many cases, patents had a most pernicious effect upon the trade and enterprise of the country, and that improvement had been cramped or wholly stayed by the consequences of their exclusive and inviolable privileges being granted for so long a period. If the cases were submitted to a committee above stairs, he was convinced
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Ordered to lie on the table.
WELCH MINING COMPANY BILL.
Mr. Peter Moore
brought up the report of the committee upon this bill. On moving, that the amendments be now read,
Mr. Littleton
said, he had a few observations to offer upon this bill. It purposed, as he perceived, to enable the Welch Iron and Coal Company, to sue and be sued in the name of their Secretary. Now, he thought the House should recollect, that if they gave this bill their consent, they at the same time granted a kind of parliamentary sanction and authority to the purposes for which the company had been formed, and to the manner in which they proposed to carry their intentions into execution. Now, as he did not conceive that the House meant to give any such sanction or approbation to the companies which had been applying in this manner for the powers of an act of parliament, he thought the present a very fit opportunity to check such applications in future. He drew a very great distinction between companies formed to do what nothing but great companies could do—such as working the mines containing precious minerals in other countries, and various other undertakings, which required the hazard of immense capital, without the fear of great individual loss—and those companies which were created for undertakings of a mere ordinary description, and which were likely to prove ruinously injurious by competition with meritorious individuals, whose properties were invested in those branches of trade to which they proposed to apply their joint-stock capital and powers. Some of his constituents fearing such consequences from this company, and feeling they could prove it was not likely to be productive of any of the advantages, either to particular districts, or to the country at large, which it promised, had incurred a very serious expense last session in opposing the bill in the committee, and he, finding that the hon. member who was endeavouring to carry it through the House this session, and who had chiefly interested himself in its success, was never, on any occasion, present at that committee, and that there was no probability of the bill being
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Mr. Peter Moore,
after explaining the reason for the postponement of the bill, and his absence from the committee, observed that he hoped to be able so to convince the hon. member for Staffordshire of the propriety and importance of the bill, as to induce him to withdraw his opposition to it. The company had purchased mines at a cost of 100,000
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Colonel Wood
hoped, that his hon. friend would not be induced to relax in his opposition to the bill. Every body who knew the mining counties of Wales, knew that this company was not at all necessary. Instead of there not being enough, there was too much iron there, and the great evil of this bill would be, that it would increase the competition to a mischievous extent.
Colonel Davies
said, that the reasons given by the two hon. members for their opposition was very extraordinary. They alleged no public grounds. They did not say that it was likely to prove
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Mr. Stuart Wortley
said, his objection to the bill was, that it gave the sanction of parliament to a company only for the purpose of enabling them to come into the market upon better terms than other persons. Every allegation in the preamble of the bill was false. It alleged, that the prosperity of Wales had been solely owing to mining companies of this sort, which he denied; and he would refuse, therefore, to put them upon a better footing than other individuals.
Mr. Calcraft
said, that the object of the bill was to raise the price of the company's shares in the market, and not to benefit Wales, or the iron trade. He had always stood up for individuals embarked in trade, against these overwhelming efforts of capital, and he would do so on this occasion. The object of the bill was, he repeated to give additional value to the shares, that they might become objects of gambling speculation.
Mr. Baring
was afraid that the House was inclined to proceed too hastily on the subject. Last year they passed all bills relating to companies of the most trumpery description, and now they seemed indisposed to pass any which was at all connected with a company. It became the House to be more consistent with their legislation. They ought to decide upon a general principle, and not with reference to the merits of particular companies. It was true that the sanction of parliament was, in some instances, sought for the purpose of giving facility to the circulation of shares, and of catching the unwary; but it should be understood, that although parliament should pass a bill to facilitate the operations of the company, and to free it from the inconveniences to which it might be otherwise legally subjected, it by no means pledged itself to an approval of the enterprise in favour of which the bill was required.
Lord Palmerston
concurred in the opinion, that the passing of the bill in par-
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he knew nothing of the particular company, the bill in favour of which was now before the House. Whether it would be beneficial or not to the principality of Wales, he would not say; but he thought it would have been well, if the parties, before they applied to parliament, had availed themselves of a bill which passed towards the close of the last session. He alluded to an act empowering the king in council to grant limited charters. An opportunity would have then presented itself of discussing the grounds on which this company sought the relief required by this bill. The House had first a right to inquire if the allegations of the parties requiring this relief were true; and, secondly, if true, why they had not first adopted the easy course of applying for the limited charter, which, by the act of last session, the Crown had the power to grant?
Lord A. Hamilton
said, that joint-stock companies came to that House to obtain bills of the nature of that before the House, in order to gain a character out of doors, and to enable them to sell their shares to advantage. The House ought to proceed with extreme caution on the subject, after the dishonest practices which had been committed by many of the companies who obtained charters last year.
Mr. Huskisson
said, he was not aware that any notorious bubble companies had obtained sanction from that House. The number of applications made last year for acts of parliament, on the part of joint-stock companies, first called the attention of the House to the subject, and they almost came to a resolution not to entertain, as a matter of course, an application from any number of persons associated in partnership for permission to sue and be sued through their secretary. Towards the close of last year, parliament
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The amendment was agreed to, and the further consideration of the report put off for six months.
EDUCATION OF THE POOR OF IRELAND.
The House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply. On the resolution, "That 25,000
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Mr. Hume
said, that the society for which the present vote was claimed was totally unworthy of the attention of the House, for it had made statements relative to its services which were altogether false. He must observe, moreover, that the rich bishops and wealthy clergy of
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Lord Milton
said, that his hon. friend might have gone much further than stating that the number of scholars in the four districts averaged at the rate of seventy for each school; for he would find that in every county in Ireland the comparison between the number of scholars and schools would produce precisely the same result. And yet, upon such a statement was the committee called upon to vote away the public money. Unless these returns of the society could be explained, he should consider them utterly disgraceful to those who published them.
Mr. Butterworth
said, that the Kildare-street schools had done more good for Ireland than the hon. member was likely to do in twenty years, should his life be spared so long. He could not readily explain how the returns had been made out to tally with a particular number of scholars. Perhaps some general average had been taken. At any rate, he was
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Mr. Goulburn
said, he wished to know whence the hon. member for Aberdeen derived his calculation relative to the average of seventy scholars.
Mr. Hume
said, he had taken it from the report of the society itself, for 1824.
Mr. Goulburn
said, he could not answer the statement, as he had not seen the document; but he was surprised that the hon. member should animadvert upon the conduct of the clergy and prelates, when he ought to have seen from the report, that not one of that profession had anything to do with the management of the society. The salary of the secretary was not 400
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Mr. Bright
said, that from the suspicious circumstances connected with the proceedings of the Kildare-street Society,
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Mr. Frankland Lewis
expressed his regret that the committee of inquiry had not been able to lay their additional report before the House at an earlier period. It was however in preparation, and would shortly be produced, and the House would find, that it was a work of no small labour. The hon. member, adverting to what had been said as to the number of scholars, observed, that it was difficult to ascertain the number on the rolls, for three months together. The committee had taken the number at 61,000; and when it was stated at 70,000, it was not, perhaps, too high. When the parties more immediately concerned made their report amount to 100,000 children, they did it not with a view to deceive; for they candidly admitted that they had taken into account schools not at present in operation, but which were likely to be so in a short time. Although it might be wrong to make such a return, he begged to bear testimony to the high respectability of the managers of the Kildare-street Society. The honour and integrity of those gentlemen had been most unfairly attacked, and it was but justice to vindicate their characters from the stigma attempted to be fixed upon them.
Mr. Hume
did not wish to cast any reflection on those gentlemen individually; but, in their collective capacity, they had certainly committed errors. How were those errors attempted to be reconciled? According to the report of the society, the number of children educated by them was 100,000, while, in point of fact, it was little more than half that amount. The report of the managers was, therefore, at variance with truth. It was in fact an unfounded statement. With respect to the share which the Roman Catholics had in the management of the society, it appeared that there had been only two gentlemen of that persuasion who were connected with it, one of whom was since dead. Was it therefore to be expected that the Roman Catholic population of Ireland would suffer their children to attend those schools, the managers of which were, with one exception, Protestants? An alteration in the system was loudly called for, and he hoped it would take place at no distant day.
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NATIONAL PICTURE GALLERY.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 23 1826.
LARCENY BILL.
Mr. Secretary Peel
brought in his bill "for consolidating and amending the Laws in England relative to Larceny, and certain other offences, affecting property." He said, he was so desirous that this bill should receive the most deliberate investigation, that he hoped he should be permitted to have it read the first and second time, and to go through the committee, where the blanks which fixed the penalty to the different offences could be filled up. The bill
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The bill was then read a first and second time, and committed.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL.
Mr. Secretary Peel
next brought in his bill "for improving the administration of Criminal Justice in England," and requested he might be allowed to take the same course with this as he had done with the preceding measure. This bill differed only in one respect from the statement which he had made when he obtained leave to bring it in, and that alteration was made on the suggestion of one of the highest judicial authorities this country had ever produced—an authority whose opinions were reverenced in every part of the world where a love of justice and equity prevailed—he alluded to lord Stowell, the venerable judge of the Admiralty Court. That noble lord proposed to extend the principle of the bill, so far as it related to prosecutions for misdemeanour at the quarter sessions, to offences tried in the Admiralty Court. At present, when persons were tried for offences committed on the high seas, even of the most atrocious character, the court had no power by law to award any indemnification to the persons supporting the prosecution; and the object of the alteration was, to give to the court of Admiralty a discretionary power of indemnifying individuals who came forward as prosecutors. On the common principle of justice it was only, fair that the expense should be borne by the public.
The bill was then read a first and second time, and committed.
PUBLIC CHARITIES IN IRELAND.
The order of the day for receiving the Report of the Committee of Supply was read. On the question, "that the report be now brought up,"
Mr. Hume
said, he had not heard from his majesty's ministers whether they intended to make any alteration in the estimates for charitable purposes in Ireland. He would, therefore, avail himself of the present opportunity of placing on record his opinion of the situation in which the
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that if the votes for those charitable institutions were now proposed for the first time, he could not conceive any sort of reasoning which could make him acquiesce in them. But they had now been voted for so long a period, that they ought not to be abruptly discontinued. The House would not, he was sure, be disposed at once to break up these establishments, which, however questionable in their principle, were necessary and useful to the people of Ireland. No one would recommend to the legislature to discard from their mind all charitable feelings for a cold and too strict an economy.
Mr. Hume
said, that it was now five years since government ought to have pro-
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The House divided: for bringing up the report 60. Against it 6.
List of the Minority.
Bright, H.
Smith, W.
Davies, T.
TELLERS.
Ellice, E.
Fergusson, sir R.
Hume, J.
Lockhart, J.
Wood, ald.
EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
Mr. Hume
again expressed his objections to the vote for the Kildare-street Society, in Dublin. In addition to what he had said last night, as to the scholars bearing exactly a seventieth proportion to the number of schools of this institution, in the several counties of Ireland, he was now enabled to state, that the same proportion was observable in the reports of the society of 1824, 1825, and 1826. He was, therefore, warranted in saying, that this was a manufactured statement. He apologized, however, for having connected the church of Ireland so closely with this institution. This was professedly a proselyting society, and it was impossible for a Catholic to read any work called a tract. He objected to a tract called a "Search for Sin," as containing the most disgusting rhapsodies. He had a horror of tracts. It was monstrous to charge so large a sum for educating 26,000 Catholic children. He concluded by moving, as an amendment, "That a commission being now employed to inquire into the state of education in Ireland, and the best means of promoting the same, it is, in the opinion of this House, as contrary to parliamentary usage, as it is inconsistent with economy, to allow of any increase of expense for the society for promoting the education of the poor of Ireland until the commissioners have made their final report to this House, and therefore the amount should be reduced to 22,000
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Mr. F. Lewis
said, that the commission had already reported, but the hon. member had not read that report. He defended these institutions, as, from his own knowledge, being highly beneficial to Ireland.
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The amendment was negatived, and the resolution agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 6 1826.
LIVERPOOL AND MANCHESTER RAILWAY
General Gascoyne
rose for the purpose of moving the third reading of this bill. He observed, that though he had been a member of that House for many years, he had rarely found it necessary to make any observation on a local measure of this nature; but, as he saw an unusual muster of those who objected to the bill, he felt it to be his duty to offer a few remarks in support of it. His constituents were decidedly in favour of the measure, as was evident from the number of petitions which had been presented, showing the benefit that would be derived from it. It was true, that last session a similar measure had been defeated, but even then the justice of its principle had been admitted and, since that time, those who most strenuously objected to the formation of the road, had given up their opposition. It could not be denied, that the trade of Liverpool and Manchester had increased very much of late years; and therefore this new communication between the two places had become necessary. It was said, that individuals, who had property on the intended line of road, would be injured. This, however, was an argument that would militate against every species of improvement. The population on the thirty-one miles which intervened between Liverpool and Manchester was nearer in amount to 1,000,000, than 800,000 persons; and, therefore, it was impossible that some inconvenience must not be suffered. But, assuredly, inconvenience ought not to prevent a great public improvement. This was a measure that did not originate in the spirit of speculation. Local circumstances, and the clear necessity of having an additional accommodation for the transit of goods between the two towns, had given rise to it. The plan would be extremely beneficial to Ireland; for he considered the adoption of every project which rendered the communication between the two counties more rapid and easy as a point gained for Ireland.
Mr. William Peel
seconded the motion. From the evidence given before the committee, with whose recommenda-
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Mr. Stanley
requested the House to bear in mind, that the bill which now came recommended by the committee, was last year rejected by the House. He would undertake to show, that the advantages of cheapness and rapidity which were expected from this bill, would by no means result from it. He would not object to it, if any case of public necessity, or great public improvement required it; and least of all would he object to it if it were proved that it would be serviceable to the trade of Ireland. No bill had ever come before the House with higher pretensions than the present. It was first proposed, that the movement on this railroad should be as rapid as twelve miles an hour; this was then altered to ten, and thus the thirty miles was to be gone over in three hours. But, what was now proposed? Why, the very reverse of this; and, instead of moving at the rate of ten miles an hour, it was intended to move at the rate of three miles an hour, which was the performance of thirty miles in ten hours, instead of thirty miles in three. The conveyance by the canals was twelve hours. There were some who stated it at a higher rate; but the average conveyance was twelve hours, making
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Sir Isaac Coffin
seconded the amendment. There had, he said, been a great deal of manœuvering about this bill. It was thrown out last session, and taken up
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Mr. Huskisson
said, he did not mean to follow the hon. member who had spoken last but one, into all the details to which he had adverted. The course which the hon. member had pursued was rather unusual. He might have urged all his objections in the committee (which he believed the hon. member had not attended) instead of coming down and discussing all the bearings of the bill on the third reading. His gallant friend had told them, that this measure went to invade private property. But this must always be the case whenever an improvement was contemplated, whether it was the formation of a highway or the excavation of a canal. His gallant friend had stated, that he had known Liverpool for forty-four-years. Now, he would ask his gallant friend whether, during that long period, the towns of Liverpool and Manchester had remained stationary? If they had, as was the fact, increased in size and importance, that circumstance formed a prima facie case in favour of this measure. The argument that this rail-road would charge more to the public than was charged by the canal, was one which he could not understand. If it did charge more, the only effect would be, that the public would not go upon it. But the only ground upon which he supported this rail-road was, that it would be likely to charge a great deal less than was charged by the canal. It was an especial condition that the profits upon the undertaking should be limited always to ten per cent. Would the canals limit their profit to this extent—taking as they were now doing, more than 100? His main reason for assisting this project of the rail-road was to break up the overgrown monopoly which was now enjoyed by the canals.
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Mr. Philips
said, that the interests of the public were of paramount importance to those of the canals; but he was persuaded that the rail-roads would be of no general advantage commensurate with the injury they would inflict upon private property. He should therefore oppose the bill.
Sir J. Newport
was in favour of the measure, which he thought would promote the interests both of Liverpool and Ireland.
Captain Bradshaw
said, that this railroad would become a monopoly in the hands of the proprietors.
The House then divided: for the third reading 88; against it 41; majority 47. The bill was then read a third time and passed.
SHERIFF OF DURHAM BILL.
Mr. Secretary Peel
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to remedy the inconveniences arising from the present state of the county of Durham, with regard to the appointment of its High Sheriff. That office was held for life, in the county of Durham, by the nomination of the Bishop; and in consequence of the death of that prelate, and from there being as yet no successor possessed of the power to appoint his officers, the whole business of the county was at a stand. No juries could be summoned, no sessions could be held, no public business of any kind could be transacted, unless some measure was adopted to render those officers still legally capable of executing the duties assigned to them. For that purpose, he proposed that the sheriff and other officers should be empowered by a bill, which he trusted the House would enable him to pass through its stages with the least possible delay, to continue in the situations they now hold for six months from the present time. He was not however prepared to say, that, after the termination of that period, he would consent to leave the office of High Sheriff of the populous and important county of Durham to revert to the same state, with respect to its appointment and duration, as before the death of the late prelate. He saw no sufficient reason why that high office should be held at the pleasure of the bishop, nor why the gentlemen of the county of Durham should not be compelled, like the gentlemen of the other counties of England, to serve in their
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Mr. Hume
approved of the proposal for assimilating the practice in counties, in the appointment of sheriffs, but he wished to take that opportunity of putting it to the right hon. Secretary, whether it would not be expedient to make some alteration in the revenues of the bishop of Durham. All the world acknowledged the income of that person was much too large, and he conceived there was no reflection cast upon the church of England more poignant or more just, than the lamentable disproportion in the incomes of its servants. Thousands were left poor to swell the revenue of one or two overwhelming rich, and he thought the present would be a noble opportunity to commence a reformation of errors, to cast aside abuses, and, by reducing the salary of the bishop, clear the way for freeing the church of England from the imputations thrown out against it for the inequality of the incomes allotted to its ministers. The right hon. gentleman had, to his infinite honour, been the proposer of many improvements, and he could not avoid throwing out a suggestion of that kind at the present moment, that the right hon. gentleman might have the credit of taking it upon himself now; for he might be assured, that the time would come when such a reformation must take place, in spite of all opposition, and when the incomes of the dignitaries of the church of England would be reduced to a sum, bearing a juster relation to that received by their fellow-labourers, and the whole body be thereby rendered more respectable and more useful.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
SALARY OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE
The House having resolved itself into a committee, to which the Civil List act was referred,
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that, in rising to move a resolution regarding the salary of the president of the Board of Trade, he thought it necessary to observe, that the state of that office had not alone been considered defective by his colleagues in office on that side of the House, but had actually, on several occasions, drawn forth observations from the gentlemen opposite, many of whom, during the last session, had repeatedly given utterance to an opinion that the salary of his right hon. friend was totally incompatible with the duties which it became necessary for him to perform, and expressed their regret that so important an office should be allowed to continue without any adequate remuneration. Prior to the year 1782, all matters connected with the trade and commerce of the country had been managed by a Board composed of various members of the government, each of whom received a salary for that specific service. It might be doubted now how far a Board thus constituted was calculated to take a proper view of the various commercial relations of the country, or to advance those measures which might be considered essential to the public interests; certain it was, that many more received salaries than were at all necessary for the service of that department; and, after having been for a time subjected to the lash of Mr. Burke's ridicule at that period, the Board was finally abolished, and a determination made to have its functions performed in some other way. It was soon found, however, that in this country, commerce affected such a variety of interests, involved questions so complicated, and altogether demanded a knowledge and acquirements so different from the common routine of ministerial duties, as to render it impossible that it could be safely left without some superintendence more particularly devoted to its peculiar objects; and, in consequence, about the year 1784, the concerns of trade and commerce were intrusted to a committee of the privy council, under the direction of a president and vice-president, holding other offices, from which they received those salaries which were justly due as a remuneration to all who devoted their services to the benefit of their country. But it must be obvious that this mode of paying for the fulfilment of the duties of a highly useful and effective office by the salary of one which was well paid, though less effective, was
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said, that any suggestion thrown out by his honourable friends for increasing the allowances of public officers,
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
, in reply to the hon. gentleman, said, that his right hon. friend had no other salary but that of Treasurer of the Navy. As to the question, whether his right hon. friend held any other office, he had, until lately, been agent for Ceylon, but had now given up that situation. Neither he nor his right hon. friend ever thought of his holding the situation of Treasurer of the Navy with the presidency of the Board of Trade, after the appointment of a sufficient salary for the last-named office. He thought that the salary of Treasurer of the Navy was no more than the person holding that office was entitled to receive, if he held no other situation. He thought, however, that there was no necessity for continuing the allowance of a house at the public expense. The reasons which ap-
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Mr. Calcraft
bore testimony to the high talents of the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade. He was free to say that a more able and efficient servant could not be found to fill the duties of that office. Yet, much as he respected the zeal and abilities of the right hon. gentleman, he could not see the necessity of increasing the salary of the situation which he held, at least to the extent which had been proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer. Under cover of giving 5,000
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Mr. Robertson
complained of the short notice which had been given with respect to the present motion. He had not heard of it until he came down that night. There were circumstances of suspicion connected with this measure, which, if known to the House, would, he was convinced, make a strong impression. Circumstances of a mysterious nature were connected with the present motion, of which it was right that the House should be put in possession before they came to a decision. He begged to call the attention of the House to the charter which had been last year granted by the President of the Board of Trade, to incorporate a certain silk company. At the head of that company stood the name of Mr. Alexander Baring, and he could not but consider it a very singular coincidence, that early in the month of June, 1825, a short time after the charter had been granted, Mr. Baring rose in his place to propose an increase to the salary of the President of the Board of Trade. He
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Mr. Baring
said, he could assure the hon. gentleman, that he had totally mistaken his motives in proposing an increase of salary to the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade. He certainly had proposed that increase from a conviction that it was called for; and, in giving his support to the present measure, his opinion as to its justice and expediency was unaltered. He would go even further, and say, that there never was a vote more justly called for. With respect to the allusion which had been made to the company of which he had become a member, he begged leave to offer some explanation. The silk company was established last year with a view of benefitting Ireland, and with that view he had lent his name to the concern; but with respect to any profits which he might be supposed to derive from the speculation, he could assure the hon. gentleman and the House, that he had only contributed 200
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Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that if the knowledge of what passed there was confined within the walls of the House, it would be ludicrous in him to notice the charge of the hon. member for Gram-pound; and he only did so for the purpose of repeating the declaration which had been already made by his right hon. friend, that he had lent his name to that company honourably, and without the slightest hope of participating in its advantages. If it drew to itself all the wealth of the Indies, his right hon. friend would not derive a single farthing from it; and when the hon. member imputed to the hon. member for Taunton that, on ac-
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Mr. Maberly
entirely concurred in the view taken of the question before the House by the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down. He could not conceive why the situation of President of the Board of Trade should not be equally remunerated with the Secretary for the Foreign and Home Departments. The labours were at least equal to either of those appointments; and he would suggest to the chancellor of the Exchequer, that the
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Mr. Bernal
also agreed in the vote, on the understanding that a reduction would be made in the salary of the Treasurer of the Navy, or the office altogether abolished. But, that, if any member should insist on a pledge to that effect being given before they concurred in the resolution, he should feel it his duty to join him.
Mr. Calcraft
repeated, that he would certainly oppose the present vote unless he received some pledge that the treasurer-ship of the Navy would be modified, and the business done, as it might be, by the paymaster.
Mr. Lockhart
wished to know whether the new arrangement would necessarily vacate the right hon. gentleman's seat in that House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, the resolution would have no reference to the seat of the right hon. gentleman. He was adverse to the proposition of amalgamating the offices of President of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy. It was a fallacy to suppose that the latter office was a sinecure. On the contrary, its duties were manifold, and essential to the efficient regulation of that important branch of the service. Whether 5,000
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Mr. T. Wilson
considered the present was not the time for taxing the country with an increase of official salary. Why not add 2,000
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Mr. Calcraft
repeated, that he would oppose the resolution, unless some pledge were given that it was not intended to be made an opportunity for placing an additional office of 3,000
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Mr. Hume
could not acquiesce in the proposal of the right hon. gentleman opposite. The House was bound to abstain from imposing new burthens upon the country while there were already so many
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Sir F. Ommaney
observed upon the great responsibility of the Treasurer of the Navy, and urged the necessity of keeping this office distinct from that of the President of the Board of Trade.
Mr. Baring
suggested that it would be better to leave out the consideration of the office of Treasurer of the Navy for the present, and make it the subject of a separate discussion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
opposed the union of the two offices of President of the Board of Trade and Treasurer of the Navy. The question at present to be discussed was, whether or not 5,000
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Mr. Ellice
said, he should decidedly vote for the salary to be given to the right hon. gentleman, as a proper but moderate remuneration for his great talents and devotion to public business, and he fully agreed, that no one had held any office more to the advantage of the country. Still he could not give his vote for
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Mr. R. Smith
thought it incumbent upon the House to accompany the increased grant in the one quarter with an inquiry into the nature of the other office. He would support the amendment of the hon. member for Aberdeen, but that he thought it too general. If it were competent to him to move an amendment upon an amendment, he would move that the inquiry be restricted to the office of Treasurer of the Navy.
Mr. Maberly
said, he could not support the original motion, unless it was modified, as far as respected the treasurership of the Navy.
Mr. Hume
said, that if the House went into the committee of inquiry, he would point out many offices from which the saving might be made.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that an inquiry into the nature of other offices was not necessarily connected with the present motion. It was not said that the proposed salary was too great; but whether it was too great or too small, if there were any useless offices, let the House abolish them, without any reference to the present question. If this office was necessary, the country was rich enough to afford it: if it was not necessary, the committee ought not, of course, to agree to the vote. The hon. member need not regret the rejection of his amendment now, as he would have an opportunity of bringing on the subject again.
Mr. Hume
said he was not understood. He did not mean to object to this vote of 5,000
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Mr. Peel
said, the hon. member's amendment went to a saving of this 5,000
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Mr. Ellice
recommended that the amendment should be confined to the office of the Treasurer of the Navy, and that the inquiry should be, whether that office could be modified or abolished.
Mr. Baring
hoped the hon. member for Aberdeen would agree to the amendment, by which his proposition for inquiry was
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said, the question he had brought before the committee was, what ought the President of the Board of Trade to receive? He thought the two offices ought not to be connected; and that the question as to the salary of the Treasurer of the Navy ought not, therefore, to be discussed, unless it could be shewn that they were necessarily connected with each other. He had no objection to postpone the consideration of this motion, though he did not see any necessity for so doing. He would only observe, that when Mr. Rose held the office of Treasurer of the Navy, he received a higher salary than was at present given. For the last six years that he held the office he received 4,000
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The motion was then postponed till tomorrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, April 7 1826.
JURIES IN INDIA BILL.
The report of the committee on this bill being brought up,
Mr. Hume
complained that the bill, as it now stood, did not sufficiently define the powers of the judges in India to select native subjects to sit upon juries. This would be considered a great evil by all who reflected that the prejudices of the Europeans in India had been carried to such a height, that there had been a declaration made by some of that class, that they never would convict any white man of murder, if his victim were a black. He wished to see the practice established of composing juries of an equal number of Europeans and natives, in cases where the natives were the objects of trial; and he hoped that the president of the Board of Controul would consent to a provision in the present bill, that the judges should report to this country their practice upon the selection of natives upon juries.
Mr. Wynn
said, that the proposition of the hon. member for Aberdeen was unquestionably good in principle, but the selection of natives to sit upon juries would, in many situations, be found most inconvenient, and even impossible, in
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The report was agreed to.
SCILLY ISLANDS—PETITION OF THE
Mr. Hume
presented a Petition from the Inhabitants of the Scilly Islands, setting forth,
"That the population of the different islands of Scilly amounts in the aggregate to nearly three thousand souls; that the greater part of the inhabitants of Scilly have long been exposed to severe distress, (which at the present time is frightfully increased), arising generally from the want of employment, and particularly from the very peculiar circumstances Under which the islands are held from the Crown, whence result the absence of any due form of civil government and administration of the laws; the evils to public morals occasioned by such want of government, and the misery inevitably attendant on the deficiency of labour, and of parochial or other funds for the relief of the indigent and helpless; that about seven years since, when the cry of the numerous starving families of the different islands had made itself heard throughout the parent isle, a large subscription, aided by a considerable grant from his majesty's government, was raised in England for the relief of the sufferers, and for providing them with permanent employ; and had that subscription been judiciously expended, it would have gone far to prevent the possibility of the recurrence of extreme distress, but that, unhappily, no solid and permanent benefit has been received by any class of persons on the islands from that or any other source, nor are the petitioners aware that any public
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Ordered to lie on the table.
SALARY OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
having moved, that the House should resolve itself into a committee on the Civil List act,
Mr. Hume
said, he wished, before the Speaker left the chair, that the chancellor of the Exchequer would inform the House, whether it was his intention to add fresh burthens to the country; or how he meant to provide for the proposed increase of salary? If a gentleman was going to launch a new carriage, he ought, in prudence, first to ask himself how he meant to pay for it. The right hon. gentleman was increasing the expense of all the public departments at a time when economy was essentially necessary. How was the additional salary of the President of the Board of Trade to be provided for? Was any sinecure office to be abolished? Did the chancellor of the Exchequer mean to propose that the office of Treasurer of the Navy should be done away with? [Here an hon. member near Mr. Hume suggested to him, that the additional salary might be supplied from the income of the bishopric of Durham.] Well, he had no objection; there were ample funds in that quarter.
The Chancellor of the Excheqeur
said, that whatever connexion the treasurership of the Navy might have with the Board of Trade, the Board of Trade had no connexion at all with the bishopric of Dur-
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that if he could persuade himself that the office of Treasurer of the Navy was a sinecure, he would readily consent to its abolition, and provide for the increased salary of the President of the Board of Trade out of the saving thus made. But it would be unreasonable to do so, unless it could be shown that the office was unnecessary, or was overpaid. As far as the present salary might be considered over-payment for the duties of that office, disconnected from any other, he was disposed to reduce it. As to the duties of the office, he had held it, and he could assure the committee, that it was very far removed from any thing like a sinecure, and that it would be impossible to transfer its duties to the Bank, as some had preposterously supposed, without injury to the public service. The duty of the treasurer was not merely the acceptance of bills drawn upon him by the commissioners of the Navy. It was also his duty to see that the money was paid to the parties who had a right to receive it. He bad besides to attend to the payment of money payable on seamen's wills—an addition to his other duties which had devolved on him some years back, and which was in itself no inconsiderable source of active employment. He had also constant references made to him from the paymaster of the Navy, and other officers subordinate to him; and these required a great portion of his time. Until within a few years back, the law was very defective as to seamen's wills. Frauds to a great extent had been committed on individuals and on the public, by the facility with which money was obtained under fictitious wills. He would mention
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Mr. Tierney
expressed a wish that the vote before the committee should pass unanimously, in order to mark the sense which was entertained on all sides, of the great ability with which the right hon. gentleman had discharged the important duties of his office. It was agreed on all hands that the sum of 5,000
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Mr. Huskisson
said, that in the peculiar situation in which he was placed, it could not be expected that he should offer any opinion as to the amount of compensation which should be given to the holder of the offices which he had the honour to fill. Upon that point, therefore, he would offer no remark. He rose thus early to express to the committee his grateful feeling at the very kind sense which hon. members had been pleased to express of the manner in which he had discharged his public duties, and to say that he would humbly endeavour so to discharge them as to deserve in some degree the approbation he had received. He also was relieved from the necessity of saying any thing relative to what some gentlemen called an useless office, the treasurership of the Navy. After what had been stated by his right hon. friend near him, and by the right hon. gentleman opposite, it was scarcely necessary to add, that the business of that department had very considerably increased, as well as the importance of the duties connected with it, since the transfer to it of the management of seamen's wills. It was quite erroneous to suppose that the business of that office was a mere matter of paying money. So far from that, the Treasurer of the Navy was called on to exercise his discretion in the instance of every demand made on him for money. He was obliged to sift the grounds of each claim, and to decide on the merits of the applicant. With so many branches of public duty to be performed the Bank could not be expected to execute them, or to exercise any discretion on the different cases submitted to the consideration of whoever might be placed in the super-
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Mr. Calcraft
observed, upon the imposing manner in which the chancellor of the Exchequer and his right hon. colleagues always magnified the business, and exaggerated the responsibility of any of the chief officers of government. They spoke with such feeling of the pain and anxiety belonging to public appointments, that it really seemed strange, taking their own representations, that they were ever able to persuade any men to undertake such a burthen of care and restlessness. Was it indeed a fact, that these distinguished posts were forced upon unwilling individuals; that honour was thrust upon them; and that, instead of large salaries and small duties being greedily caught at by hungry expectants, they were thrown back upon those who offered them, with a sneer? He apprehended, however, judging from experience, that neither the chancellor of the Exchequer, nor the noble earl at the head of his majesty's councils, was ever obliged to beat up for recruits, and to offer a bounty for the acceptance of a place. The right hon. gentleman had said a great deal of the excellence of his paymaster and of the misfortune he should sustain if that useful officer were to die; but did he mean to say, that there was nobody, second or third, in the department, capable of discharging the duties of the situation. He could not imagine how any difficulty of the sort anticipated could arise. It seemed much more likely that ministers were anxious to uphold and defend a place which they had promised to some officious dependent. That he sin-
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Mr. Curwen
said, he was favourable to the proposition so far as it went to benefit the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade; but he must object to the measure with which it was accompanied.
Sir M. W. Ridley
admitted, that the great servants of the Crown ought to be fully remunerated, and that no parsimony could be more injudicious, than to reduce their salaries below what their talents and duties merited. A thousand a year might be too little for the Treasurer of the Navy; but, if the amount were increased, it ought to be understood that the occupant of the place should not also have a seat in parliament. He did not wish to vote against the resolution in favour of the President of the Board of Trade, but he might be reduced to that alternative, if the latter part of the question was forcedon in connection with it.
Sir Isaac Coffin
contended, that the treasurership of the Navy was no sinecure. It could be no sinecure, where seven
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Mr. Denison
said, he was quite willing to vote 5,000
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that the first defaulter had made off with 25,000
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Mr. Denison
asked, what became of the responsibility so much talked of, when the right hon. gentleman had not been called upon to pay the money?
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that the money was lost by no fault of his right hon. friend.
Mr. Abercromby
expressed his regret that this proposition had been brought forward. He had the most sincere respect for the right hon. gentleman, and a high sense of his services to the public; and it was distressing, that this salary
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Sir John Newport
recommended the adoption of one of two courses—either to unite the treasurership of the Navy with the office of President of the Board of Trade, giving an additional sum of 2,000
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Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that whatever arrangements the House might finally adopt with respect to other offices, he saw no difficulty like that felt by the right hon. gentleman opposite, in coming to a decision upon the present question, which only respected the salary of the President of the Board of Trade. To vote for that salary would not compromise the right of any gentleman to call for an inquiry into the office of Treasurer of the Navy. He denied that this measure would increase the influence of the Crown. It might be right or wrong for the Treasurer of the Navy to sit in that House; but it was not matter of course that the two offices should be held by the same person. Lord Melville had held the office of President of the Board of Control with the treasurership of the Navy; lord Harrowby, the right hon. gentleman opposite, he himself, and the late Mr. Sheridan, had each held the treasurership of the Navy, without holding the presidency of the Board of Trade. During all that time it had never been made a question that the Treasurer of the Navy ought not to be allowed to sit in that House. He maintained that it was perfectly incorrect
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Sir George Hill
said, that he felt confident the committee would be disposed to hear from him a few observations on the nature and duties of the vice-treasurer's office, which he had the honour of holding. That office hsd been so particularly alluded to by the hon. member for Calne, and the necessity of it called in question a short time ago by the hon. member for Montrose, that without interrupting the course of the present debate he begged leave to observe, that he was most anxious for an inquiry into the nature and extent of the duties of his office, and the efficiency with which they were performed; and he would venture to affirm that they were amongst the most important of those not attached to a cabinet situation. In 1816, the office 6f vice-treasurer was established, when the Exchequers of the two countries were consolidated and united, with a salary of 2,000
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Mr. Bernal
, in allusion to the responsibility said to be attached to the office of Treasurer of the Navy, remarked, that he did not perceive in what manner the public were protected from the embezzlement or mal-appropriation of the money. The person who filled that situation was under no sort of responsibility. The office might be entirely abolished by giving a small additional salary to the paymaster of the Navy, who could fulfil the duties conjointly. He contended, that ministers had made out no case to satisfy the House that the two offices could not be efficiently filled by one person for an adequate remuneration. In granting this salary of 5,000
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Mr. Calcraft
rose to propose what his hon. and learned friend had suggested in an earlier stage of the debate, that the chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again. By this course, ministers would have time till Monday to reconsider the proposition they had submitted to the House.
Sir F. Ommaney
urged the propriety of the proposed salary, and defended the office of Treasurer of the Navy.
The committee divided on Mr. Cal-craft's amendment: For the motion 44; Against it 83; Majority 39. On our return to the gallery,
Mr. Hume
was speaking on the amendment which he had proposed on the preceding evening. He said he had been induced to withdraw that amendment, in order to afford to ministers a space of twenty-four hours, to reflect upon what they must see was the unanimous opinion of the House. He had hoped that his withdrawing that amendment would have induced them to adopt the alteration which it recommended; and, although he regretted to find that it had not produced that effect, he was more convinced than ever that the course he had suggested was the proper one to pursue. He was sorry to see neither the right hon. Secretary for the Foreign Department, nor the right hon. member for Knaresborough
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Mr. Maberly
seconded the amendment.
Mr. T. Wilson
said, that if it had been necessary, he should have been ready to second this amendment, which seemed to him exactly to point out what ought to be done. He much regretted this discussion, which he thought might have been avoided; and he could not help declaring that, in his opinion, the House had been placed in a cruel situation by the conduct of ministers. He fully agreed, that the duties of the President of the Board of Trade were efficiently and honourably discharged; and he believed there was not the slightest difference of opinion as to the propriety of granting the sum of 5,000
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Mr. Hudson Gurnet
said, it had been remarked that the proposed measure had found none but official defenders. Now this being an arrangement of office, gentlemen connected with the departments of government might be the only adequate judges; but, it appeared to him of vast importance, that the president ship of the Board of Trade should, in this great commercial country, be a cabinet office, and one to which a member of the cabinet should be able to devote his time; and the more so, as in the class from which cabinet ministers were, for the most part, taken, there could be very few habitually conversant with the details of commerce. It was allowed, that very great sums passed yearly through the office of the Treasurer of the Navy; and that, when joined to the presidentship of the Board of Trade, it was not possible that the treasurer should give them an adequate attention. The abolishing the office, and transferring its duties to the paymaster, did not appear to him any great economy as in such case, the salary of the first clerk must amount to nearly the same thing. He did not think, considering the liability of the treasurer as a public accountant, that the proposed reduced remuneration was an extravagant one, and the only argument against the arrangement which he had heard pressed was, that there had been two Whig treasurers of the Navy, one of whom got through his business in an hour, and the other never meddled with it all.
Mr. Maberly
observed, that the subject was one of the utmost importance, as it not only involved the question, whether there should be salaries to two efficient officers, but whether the influence of the Crown should be increased in parliament by the admission of two ministers instead of one to seats in that House. Such a question ought not to be hastily decided, and he should therefore object to making
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the hon. member for Abingdon seemed to imagine that the most important part of the subject was that which related to the admission of two officers of the Crown instead of one to seats in that House. But surely, if that question was to be agitated, the proposed committee was not the place in which it should be discussed. The amendment ought not to be introduced into this discussion, as the two offices were not necessarily connected with each other. He did not think it followed, because ministers declined to mix up these two questions, which were in their nature so distinct, that therefore they intended to refuse inquiry altogether. He thought the amendment of the hon. member for Aberdeen irrelevant, and should therefore oppose it.
Mr. Baring
said, that the difficulty which the right hon. gentleman suggested arose entirely from the act of the ministers themselves. They had united the two offices, and now they proposed to attach a salary to one of the offices, while they made no promise whatever regarding the other. Nothing gave him greater pain than to vote against the resolution for granting compensation to the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade; but the shape in which that resolution was put, made it impossible for him to consent to it. There was a strong feeling in the public mind, that the talents and exertions of the right hon. gentleman were fully intitled to compensation, and ministers had availed themselves of that feeling, to carry that which he could not designate otherwise than as a job—almost as decided' and bad a job as had ever been attempted [hear, hear!]. He trusted, however, that it would not be allowed to pass unopposed, but that it would be watched with the utmost attention through every stage of its progress, that the public might see, that while the members of the Opposition were ready to give every fair compensation to talent and exertion, they were: determined to protect the purity of their grants, and to effect every possible reduction. The office of Treasurer of the Navy had been spoken of as one of responsibility; but, from a question which, in the course of this discussion had been put and: answered, it was evident that no personal I responsibility whatever was attached to the Treasurer of the Navy, in respect of
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Mr. R. Martin
said, he should not have risen, but to answer the observation of an hon. gentleman, that none but the members of government said a word in favour of the proposed measure. Now he, for one, begged leave to say, that he concurred in opinion with every one who had spoken upon the subject of the merits of the right hon. President of the Board of Trade, and the propriety of attaching a more adequate salary to his office. He also begged leave to say, that he should vote most conscientiously for the separation of the two offices. He thought that separation ought to have taken place sooner; but he did not feel the less disposed to give it his support now that it had been proposed.
The committee divided: For the amendment 35; against it 71; majority 36; The original resolution was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, April 10 1826.
LOCAL PAYMENT OF BANK NOTES.
The Marquis of Lansdown
rose to introduce the bill of which he had given notice before the adjournment. The object of it was to make all notes payable at places different from that in which they were issued, also payable where issued. It was not his wish at that time to trouble their lordships by calling their attention to the provisions of the bill until after it should be printed.
The Earl of Lauderdale
asked whether
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The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he certainly intended that Scotland should be included in the operation of the bill.
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, he should then have occasion to state to their lordships very material reasons why it should not be so extended. He begged the noble marquis to recollect, that at that moment there was a committee sitting to inquire into the banking system of Scotland. Now, if that was the case, he thought it would be more becoming to defer proceeding with this bill until after that committee had made its report.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, that the object of the committee was, to inquire into the effect of the circulation of small notes in Scotland and Ireland; but, whatever might be the result of that inquiry, whether the report should be in favour of, or against the continuance of small notes in Scotland it would in no degree affect his view of the subject. If the result should be the discontinuance of small notes, then the present bill would have no effect as to them. If it should be thought advisable to continue them, then the bill would be necessary.
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, he was prepared to submit to the committee, that if the measure proposed by the noble marquis were adopted, it would destroy thirty or forty establishments in Scotland. He spoke in the hearing of those who knew that banking could not be carried on in Scotland if the branch banks were to be suppressed, as they must be if this bill should pass. He thought that the noble marquis ought to delay the second reading, until the evidence to which he had alluded was before the House.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he saw no impropriety in the course he proposed to pursue. Whether one and two pound notes were to be suffered in Scotland or not, he was of opinion that they should be payable where they were issued. The noble earl might, if their lordships should assent to the principle of the bill, propose in the committee to leave Scotland out of its operation.
The bill was then read a first time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, April 10 1826.
SALARY TO THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE.
The Chancellor of
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Mr. Hobhouse
said, he would take that opportunity, before the report was brought up, to enter his protest against this proceeding, and to express his astonishment, that his majesty's ministers should have chosen that very peculiar time for proposing one of the most uncalled-for acts that could be conceived—that of making an unnecessary addition to the burthens of the country, and to the number of placemen and pensioners now sitting in the House of Commons. Every gentleman must recollect what had fallen from the chancellor of the Exchequer in the speech which he had delivered upon introducing the budget a few weeks ago. He had declared how much he disliked the patronage which, as a minister of the Crown, was intrusted to his hands. He had talked of that, patronage in a very proper manner, when he designated it as "paltry patronage," and assured the House that he wished to get rid of it. This was what the right hon. gentleman professed; but the question was, what did he do? Why, in the teeth of his profession, he came down to the House, and asked, as a matter of course, that they would split one placeman into two, and thus make a considerable addition to the already too powerful patronage of the Crown. He did not, on this, or on any other occasion, wish to attach a fanciful importance to any question. He did not suppose that one additional placemn would ruin the constitution, unless it were much deteriorated before; but he had a right to call on the chancellor of the Exchequer to assign his reasons for dividing one place into two. He knew that some of the poorer bishops were allowed to hold other offices, to make up for the deficiency of their annual revenue, Thus the bishop of Bristol had been suffered to retain the mastership of Trinity college, Cambridge, on account of the smallness of his income. But, did any one ever hear of a proposal to remunerate that bishop, by granting him the full extent of his income for performing the duties of one office, while a second person was employed to do the duties of the other; thus employing two individuals to execute that which had previously been very well done by one? The onus of proving the necessity of this proceeding retted with his majesty's ministers. All that he and his friends had to do was to
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Lord Glenorchy
said, that the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer had got much praise, and acquired considerable popularity, in consequence of his repeated declarations in favour of economy, and the anxiety he had shown to lighten the burthens of the country: but, on the present occasion, his principles and his practice appeared to be at variance. He strongly objected to this measure, because he conceived that ministerial influence in that House was more than sufficient at present. The ministerial benches were amply supplied with individuals holding pensions from the Crown. That House ought to be considered a constitutional check on the Crown; but how could that check exist, if they were every day adding to its influence?
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that on a question which had excited so much personal feeling, he was very anxious before the House came to a vote, to state, in as few words and as clearly as he could, his own individual view of the subject. Nothing, he thought, could more decidedly prove the spirit of fairness which actuated him, than by assuring the hon. gentleman who opposed the bringing up of the report, that he would take no advantage whatever of the course which he had pursued; but he would view his opposition merely as an obstruction to a grant which he would not dislike, if proposed in some other manner. The hon. member had demanded two or three times, "Why do you bring forward
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Mr. Tierney
protested, that, in the whole course of his parliamentary experience, he had never heard a speech which astonished him more than that of the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down. Positively, any body who had attended to his reasoning must have thought that the whole struggle in this debate—the whole object of every gentleman on the opposition side of the House was, to abolish the office of Treasurer of the Navy altogether; and that the only difficulty with them was, as to the shortest way in which that object could be accomplished. But could any thing be more wide of the fact? Nobody had proposed, nobody had dreamt
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The House divided: Ayes 87; Noes 76. Majority for receiving the report, 11.
List of the Majority; and also of the Minority
MAJORITY.
Alexander, James
Lewis, W.
Arbuthnot, right Hon. C.
Lewis, F.
Lindsay, hon. H.
Antrobus, G. C.
Lockhart, W. E.
Bradshaw, T.
Long, sir C.
Brogden, James
Lopes, sir M.
Bankes, George
Lushington, S. R.
Calvert, John
Lushington, col.
Canning, right hon. G.
Madocks, W. A.
Martin, sir B.
Cholmondeley, lord H.
Martin, R.
Coffin, sir I.
M'Naughton, F. A.
Cockburn, sir G.
Montgomery, sir D.
Cocks, James
Morland, sir S. B.
Cooper, C. S.
Nicoll, sir J.
Copley, sir J. S.
Onslow, serg.
Courtenay, T. P.
Oxmantown, lord
Dalrymple, col. Davis, Hart
Palmer, R.
Palmerston, lord
Denison, J.
Pearse, J.
Divett, T.
Peel, right hon. R.
Downie, R.
Pennant, G. H.
Douglas, W. R.
Percy, hon. W. H.
Drummond, H.
Phillimore, Dr.
Dunlop, J.
Plummer, J.
East, sir Hyde
Prendergast, M. G.
Elliot, lord
Rae, sir W. B.
Ellis, C. R.
Robinson, right hon. F.
Evelyn, L.
Farquhar, sir R.
Ross, C.
Foster, L.
Rowley, sir J.
Freemantle, W. H.
Sandon, lord
Goulburn, right hon. H.
Somerset, lord G.
Staunton, sir G.
Grant, right hon. C.
Strutt, J. H.
Grant, sir A. C.
Trant, W. H.
Gurney, Hudson
Ure, Masterton
Hardinge, sir H.
Wallace, right hon. T.
Hart, General
Warrender, sir G.
Hill, sir G.
Wellesley, R.
Holford, G. H.
Wetherall, sir C.
Holmes, W.
Wynn, right hon. C. W.
Hulse, sir C.
Inglis, sir H. Irvine, John
TELLERS
Knox, hon. T.
Herries, T. C.
Leake, W.
Horton, R. W.
MINORITY.
Abercromby, hon. J;
Baillie, J.
Althorp, lord
Bankes, H.
Astley, J.
Baring, sir T.
149
Baring, A.
Maberly, J. L.
Bernal, R.
Marjoribanks, S.
Birch, J.
Martin, J.
Bright, H.
Monck, J. B.
Burdett, sir F.
Munday, F.
Butterworth, J.
Newport, sir J.
Calvert, N.
Ord, W.
Calvert, C.
Osborn, lord F. G.
Campbell, W. F.
Parnell, sir H.
Caulfield, hon. H.
Phillips, G.
Cavendish, C. C.
Pitt, J.
Colborne, N. W. R.
Portman, E. B.
Corbett, P.
Pym, F.
Crompton, S.
Rice, T. S.
Cumming, G.
Rickford, W.
Davenport, D.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Denison, W. J.
Robarts, col.
Ellice, E.
Robarts, A. W.
Fane, J.
Robinson, sir G.
Fellowes, W. H.
Russell, lord J.
Fergusson, sir R.
Russell, lord W.
Gaskell, B.
Scarlett, J.
Glenorchy, lord
Sebright, sir J.
Grant, J. P.
Smith, R.
Grenfell, P.
Thompson, ald.
Grosvenor, hon. R.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Hamilton, lord. A.
Tulk, C. A.
Honywood, W. P.
Warre, J. A.
Hughes, W. L.
Whitbread, W. H.
Hume, J.
Williams, T. P.
Keck, G. A. L.
Wilson, T.
Lamb, hon. G.
Wood, ald.
Lawley, F.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Lethbridge, sir T.
TELLERS
Leycester, R.
Lloyd, S. G.
Calcraft, J.
Lockhart, J.
Hobhouse, J. C.
The resolution, "That his Majesty be enabled to grant a Salary of 5,000. to the President of the Board of Trade," was then reported.
Mr. Secretary Canning
expressed his regret that the smallness of the majority would prevent him from persevering in the course which, as a matter of principle, he had conscientiously supported; but which, as a matter of expediency, he now felt himself bound, under all the circumstances of the case, to abandon. The expression of opinion had, undoubtedly, been very strong, and his majesty's government would not further press the measure. As it seemed to be the wish of the House, they would consent to the union of the ancient office of the Treasurer of the Navy with that of the President of the Board of Trade [hear, hear!].
Mr. Tierney
rose, with heartfelt pleasure, to assure his majesty's Government, that they had, by this act, justly earned the approbation of "his majesty's Opposition" [a laugh].
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said,
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Sir M. W. Ridley
seconded the amendment, which he had intended to move himself, if the right hon. gentleman had not anticipated him.
Mr. Hume
hoped, that in the general satisfaction he might be allowed to offer a few words. He was happy to find that the ministers had been obliged to abandon their original proposal, and he called upon the opposition to take courage from the circumstance. If they did their duty much might be done in the way of reduction before the present parliament would close its labours.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 11 1826.
PREVENTIVE SERVICE.
The Earl of Darnley
rose to bring under the consideration of their lordships, the subject of which he had last night given notice. Although, the noble earl said, the late lamentable occurrence on the coast of Kent, attended with the loss of a valuable life, had been the immediate cause of his calling their lordships' attention to the subject, this was not the only circumstance which had influenced him, nor was that the first time he had felt an interest in the matter. It was not so much the particular transaction he complained of, as the system. He could not believe, indeed, that such an order as the one issued by the officer, that whenever three persons were assembled together, and did not answer or did not disperse, they were to be immediately fired at (although that order had been laid before the coroner's
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Lord Melville
said, that the noble earl was entirely misinformed. No such command or order had been given as that which he had mentioned, justifying the men to use violence of any kind, on any of his majesty's subjects, that could lead to a breach of the peace, or an interruption of lawful avocations. No such order had been given; on the contrary, orders had been repeatedly given, that they should, on no occasion, use any kind of violence, or even resistance, unless they were first attacked. It could not be expected, that men with arms in their hands should not defend themselves when attacked. They were intitled, like other men, under similar circumstances, to use their arms. On the night of the late accident, armed bands of smugglers had been seen collecting in sundry places on the coast, near Hythe, where the accident had occurred. Notices of this had been given, and the men ordered to be particularly on the alert. The individual mentioned had been alarmed, and took on himself to do that for which he was responsible to the law of the land; which was, in fact, in direct
153
154
The Earl of Liverpool
said, it was not so much from his official situation, as from his residing for a portion of the year in the neighbourhood of the coast, and witnessing the effects of the system, that he wished to say a few words on the subject. It was now twelve years since the preventive service had been established; and the circumstance brought under their lordships' notice was, he believed, the first accident which had happened. That had not been the consequence of any orders given, as had been mentioned by his noble friend; but was the act of an individual, and was, in fact, contrary to the general orders. One accident could be no argument against a system. Accidents occurred in every department of business; and even in those amusements to which some of their lordships devoted a part of every year. Their lordships must adopt one of three systems—they must employ a naval force, a military force, or they must lower the duties. As far as the two species of force were concerned, he should have thought that noble lords who in general displayed such a constitutional jealousy of the military, would have preferred the employment of seamen. As to
155
The motion was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 13 1826.
BANKING SYSTEM IN SCOTLAND.
Mr. Huskisson
said, the House had received a great number of petitions, praying that no alteration should be made in the currency of Scotland, and it now became his duty to present one of a different description. The petition which he held in his hand pointed out the great benefit which Scotland would derive, if the same system, with respect to the currency, which prevailed in England, were applied to the former country. It was not necessary, nor would it be regular, to enter at present into the argument of the petitioners, which appeared to him to be very forcible. They particularly applied them-
156
157
Ordered to lie on the table.
LICENSING SYSTEM — PETITION OF
Mr. Hume
rose to present a petition from Thomas Edwards, a doctor of laws, and a magistrate for the county of Surrey, on the subject of the present Licensing System; a subject that must be viewed by all as one of very great importance. The petitioner had selected the present period, because the hon. member for Oxford, had introduced a bill respecting the licensing system; and he hoped that the suggestions contained in his petition would not be disregarded,
158
l.
l.
159
160
161
162
163
Ordered to lie on the table.
REPRESENTATION OF EDINBURGH.
Mr. Abercromby
rose, in pursuance of notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill "to amend and alter the Representation of the city of Edinburgh." He observed, that before he engaged in this cause, he had given the subject his most anxious attention, and had satisfied himself of the reality and magnitude of the evils, and of the facility with which a remedy might be applied to them. When he formerly presented a petition from Edinburgh in favour of an alteration in the representation, be had entered into a detail of all that related to the composition of that small body called the town council. The population of Edinburgh was above 100,000, and the electors of a representative for this population were only thirty-three, nineteen of whom were actually chosen by their predecessors, and would in their turn appoint their successors. The object in view had been met by general arguments and fears as to remote consequences, to reply to which he would now address himself. The main argument relied upon was this:— that under the pretence of seeking a fair and free representation for Edinburgh, the real purpose was, to obtain a substantial parliamentary reform; and that if the change were made with regard to Edinburgh, it ought also to be extended to Glasgow, Aberdeen, and other places. He fairly admitted that his view was, that reform in Scotland ought not to be
164
165
166
167
168
169
Mr. William Dundas
rose to oppose the proposition, the object of which was, he said, nothing less than to destroy the existing vested rights of the magistrates of Edinburgh. He was not surprised that the hon. and learned gentleman should have been chosen as the champion of such a proposition, since he had before so ably advocated the plan; and also because he was himself so splendid an instance of the power of popular and independent election. In what shape did this proposition come before the House; and with what views? The design which it openly manifested was, to beat down the charters, and extinguish the existing rights which had lasted for ages. The hon. and learned gentleman had contended, that the prosperity of Edinburgh had not arisen from the good conduct of the magistrates; but that that city had flourished in spite of their conduct. There he was at issue with him; and would contend that the prosperity of Edinburgh—he did not mean to confine himself merely to streets and squares, but the prosperity of Edinburgh as it consisted in the wealth and comfort and flourishing condition of the people— did arise from the good conduct of the magistrates and town council. Was there any charge against the magistrates? Not a word. No serious charges of corruption could be proved. A noble lord had, on a former occasion, moved for a committee to inquire into the state of the burghs, and when called upon to name his committee, the noble lord named almost all of them from his own side. A ship load of books and papers had been sent for; and what was the result? Was any corruption dis-
170
Mr. J. P. Grant
said, that the state of the case was this: that thirty-three persons, out of a population of more than 100,000, returned the member to serve in parliament for the whole of that population. The right hon. member who spoke last contended, that it would be a great injustice to deprive these thirty-three persons of their vested right so to return the member of parliament for the city of Edinburgh. But the right hon. member seemed to have forgotten, that this was not a right for their own private benefit and advantage, but a trust confided to them for the benefit of the public. In other words, if they held a private right, it resolved itself into a public trust. It was not contrary to the articles of Union to inquire into, and modify the exercise of such a right. The very speech of lord Hardwicke to which the hon. gentleman had referred, showed the contrary. "The general provision of that treaty is, that the laws of Scotland shall continue in full force, as before the treaty, but alterable by the parliament of Great Britain; with this difference between the
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*
*
172
Sir George Clarke
rose to protest against the doctrine which he had heard laid down, that the question before the House did not involve that of general reform; seeing that when once the safeguards, which protected the ancient rights and privileges of boroughs, were broken down, it would be impossible to say where the work of innovation was to stop. As a principle, he begged to deny that the House ought to interfere with the rights and privileges of any corporation, except in cases where those rights had been abused by the great body of those by whom they were held. In England no interference with the rights of boroughs was ever attempted by parliament, except in such cases; and it required that the clearest proofs should be given of venality, before it removed the right of election. This was the principle adopted in the recent transfer of the right of electing two members from Grampound to the
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174
Sir R. Fergusson
said, that he also was disposed to be very brief in his remarks on the question before the House. Indeed, lengthened observations were unnecessary on this occasion. The question was short and simple; and in the few words which he had to say on it, he would address himself rather to the English members, than to those who represented Scotland. The simple question was, what was the nature of the constitution of that
175
Sir Francis Burdett
said, that he rose with some difficulty on this occasion, from a feeling that his interposition in the debate might be considered an interference with the more peculiar duties of the Scotch members. When this subject was before the House on a former occasion, he had not taken any part in the debate, not because he felt at all indifferent to the petition of so enlightened and respectable a portion of the people, but from an apprehension, that, as the case of the citizens of Edinburgh was peculiar, and brought on as a separate question, and not connected with the principle of general parliamentary reform, there might be an unwillingness on their part for his advocacy; that they might say "non tali auxilio" to any proffer of his weak support. Nor did he think that he should have arisen even on the present occasion, but for the direct personal appeal made to Englishmen by his hon. and gallant friend who spoke last, The zeal and earnestness with which the first mention of this motion was opposed by the right hon. member for Edinburgh afforded a decided argument in its favour, The right hon. member had given proof of what a zealous member ought to be who had an interest to defend, and what perhaps the people of Edinburgh might expect on their behalf had they the power to choose a representative. The system of representation, as it was called, which his hon. and learned friend's motion had introduced to the notice of the House, was one of the most scandalous and unblushing exclusions of the right of the
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179
Mr. Keith Douglas
was of opinion that no case had been made out to interfere with the chartered rights of the city of Edinburgh. The question before the House must be met, not as affecting the city of Edinburgh alone, but as involving, according to the admission of the hon. baronet who had just sat down, the whole principle of parliamentary reform in its widest sense.
Lord A. Hamilton
said, that the only argument that had been offered against this motion was, that it was contrary to the provisions of the Union; but this, in fact, was no argument at all, and could not be relied upon as a principle by which the opinion of the House should be governed. Had nothing occurred since the Union of Scotland to call for the present bill? Had not the Union with Ireland materially altered the question? The noble lord proceeded to combat the arguments which had been advanced against the motion, and called upon the House to consider that it affected, in the most material manner, the rights and immunities of the inhabitants of Edinburgh, ninety-nine in a hundred of whom were
180
The Lord-Advocate,
after having most positively disclaimed the collusion which had been imputed to him by the noble lord, said he wished this to be treated as a British, and not merely as a Scottish subject. If a reform in the representation was to be attempted, he thought it would be but fair that the trial should extend to the whole empire; and not be confined merely to one of the weaker parts of it; for, unless it was for the purpose of effecting some such general reform, he could not discover on what principle the charter of a borough was to be taken from it, merely because it was imagined that its elective franchise might be placed in better hands. Where the elective franchise had been interfered with in England, it had always been on account of some corruption, or very improper conduct, in the parties who had the exercise of it; but against the borough of Edinburgh no misconduct had been, no misconduct could be, alleged. Its proceedings had been closely examined into, and had passed through a most severe ordeal; and on that occasion the conduct of this borough had been found perfectly fair and unexceptionable. The persons who exercised the elective franchise in it had done much for Edinburgh; they had acted most beneficially and liberally towards it. The question of general parliamentary reform would shortly be before the House, when the case of this borough might be discussed along with the rest; for there was nothing, either in its constitution or its conduct, which rendered it necessary that this borough should be singled out, and sacrificed as a special victim to reform. Indeed, he believed electors in this borough were less exceptionable than the electors of any other
181
l.
Mr. H. Drummond
rose for the purpose of confirming the assertion of the lord-advocate, disclaiming the collusion which had been imputed with regard to the bill which had been brought in on this subject on a former occasion.
Lord A. Hamilton
said, he conceived that the disclaimer of the lord-advocate and the hon. member had left the matter pretty near as it was before.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he would not allude to the concluding part of the noble lord's speech, further than to observe Union, that he did not think the noble lord had given full attention to the positive assertions of the lord-advocate and the hon. member who followed him. They had both of them most decidedly disclaimed that there was any collusion between them; and in a matter of this kind, which rested entirely within the breasts of two individuals, to what other tribunal could an appeal be made but to their honour? In proceeding to the question before them, he answered the call which had been made upon him, certainly with very great politeness, by the hon. baronet and the noble lord; but he was quite at a loss to discover the grounds on which it was expected that he should give his vote in favour of the present motion,—whether he looked upon it as a question relating to a reform in this borough in particular, or to parliamentary reform in general. He had been complimented by the hon. baronet for a sentiment which he might, in common
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184
185
186
Mr. Hobhouse
commenced his speech with calling the attention of the House to the extraordinary doctrine which had just been laid down by the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs. The right hon. gentleman had told them, that though a popular representation was good for the whole of the united kingdom, it was still good for a part of it, that some portion of its representation should not be conducted upon popular principles, and that part of the kingdom he subsequently admitted to be Scotland. Now, he asked the House whether, by this species of defence, the right hon. gentleman had not given them a character of Scotch representation which no Scotchman would be glad to recognize. Surely the right hon. gentleman had that evening held up to the public view those shameful parts of the British constitution, which, according to the opinion of Mr. Burke, ought rather to be slurred over than confessed. The right hon. gentleman had likewise taunted the members on his side of the House, with not bring-
187
188
Mr. Abercromby,
in reply, commented
189
190
191
List of the Minority
Althorp, visc.
Maberly, J.
Baring, sir T.
Maberly, W. L.
Barnard, visc.
Marjoribanks, S.
Bentinck, lord W.
Martin, J.
Bernal, R.
Maule, hon. W. R.
Birch, J.
Milbank, M.
Blake, sir F.
Monck, J. B.
Brougham, H.
Moore, P.
Burdett, sir F.
Newport, sir J.
Byng, G.
Ord, W.
Butterworth, J.
Osborne, lord F.
Buxton, T. F.
Palmer, C.
Calcraft, J.
Palmer, C. F.
Calvert, C.
Parnell, sir H.
Calvert, N.
Pelham, J. C.
Carter, J.
Philips, G. sen.
Caulfield, hon. H.
Philips, G. H.
Cavendish, C. C.
Rice, T. S.
Clifton, visc.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Colborne, N. R.
Roberts, A. W.
Corbett, P.
Robarts, G. J.
Cradock, S.
Robinson, sir G.
Creevey, T.
Rumbold, C. S.
Crompton, S.
Russell, lord J.
Denison, W. J.
Russell, lord W.
Denman, T.
Scarlett, J.
Duncannon, visc.
Scott, J.
Dundas, hon. T.
Sebright, sir J.
Ebrington, visc.
Smith, J.
Ellice, E.
Smith, W.
Evans, W.
Stanley, hon. E. G.
Fergusson, sir R.
Sykes, D.
Fitzgerald, rt. hon. M.
Tavistock, marq-
Fitzroy, lord C.
Tennyson, C.
Gaskell, B.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Glenorchy, visc.
Townshend, lord C.
Grant, J. P.
Wall, C. R.
Grattan, J.
Warre, J. A.
Gordon, R.
Webbe, E.
Guise, sir B. W.
Western, C. C.
Hamilton, lord A.
Whitbread, W. H.
Honywood, W. P.
Whitbread, S. C.
Hume, J.
Whitmore, W. W.
Hurst, R.
Williams, J.
James, W.
Wilson, sir R.
Jervoise, G. P.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Labouchere, H.
Wyvill, M.
Lawley, F.
Leycester, R.
TELLERS.
Lethbridge, sir T.
Abercromby, hon. J.
Lushington, Dr.
Hobhouse, J. C.
WESTMINSTER ABBEY.
Mr. Hume
rose to propose the motion of which he had given notice, relative to the charter granted to the Dean and Chapter of Westminster. He observed, that the House were already in possession of some returns regarding the fees received for the exhibition of the monuments in the abbey, and of the appropriation of those fees; which, it seemed, were devoted to the maintenance of the minor canons and choir. The returns for which he
192
193
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that when it was recollected that he had offered no opposition to the hon. member's former motion, the House would be convinced that he had no wish to withhold any information that might be necessary; and he could not but think that the hon. member made rather an ungracious return for the facility with which he had obtained the documents he before required. The hon. member now wished the House to call upon the dean and chapter of Westminster, to show the deeds by which they held the property that had been for so many years in their possession. He asked also for returns of the lands, houses, &c. appropriated to the maintenance of the minor canons; for a copy of the grant of 1697 to the choir, on condition that, receiving the benefits of the exhibition of the monuments, they should keep them clean; for an account of allowances and income received by minor canons, &c, and in whose possession were the lands, houses, &c. from which the same were derived.
Mr. Hume
said, he had not made any such motion.
Mr. Peel
said, he had read from the orders of the House.
Mr. Hume
said, that he had as yet only moved for a copy of the charter of queen Elizabeth.
Mr. Peel
said, that the hon. member had torn off the paper which contained that motion from another paper, which consisted, as he supposed, of the others; and that if the hon. member was not moving for these returns at that moment, it was his intention to follow up the present motion by those to which he had just alluded; and indeed, at the instant that the hon. member tore off the first part of his motion, he had declared his intention of bringing forward others connected with it.
Mr. Hume
believed he was allowed to say whether a particular motion was his or not; and if he said the motion was not
194
Mr. Peel
said, that if he had been mistaken in referring to the printed orders, he would endeavour to be more regular, by reading from the manuscript authority entered in the books of the House. On doing so, however, he found that the orders had been faithfully copied from thence; and though the hon. member had only read the first part of his motion, yet he had not said that he would abstain from proposing the rest; on the contrary, he had said that he should follow it up with others. He did not mean to say that the hon. member was bound to propose all the parts of the motion which he had entered on the books; but certainly it must be taken for granted that he meant to move them, since he expressly stated that he did not intend to withdraw them.
Mr. Hume
said, that certainly he did not mean to withdraw any of them.
Mr. Peel
then contended, that the hon. member had no right to call him disorderly, for alluding to those motions which stood upon the books. He observed, that the rights of the dean and chapter of Westminster did not differ from those of any other dean and chapter. The public had erected monuments in the abbey, which the dean and chapter possessed by a grant from the Crown; but though these monuments had been erected at the expense of the public, they had not paid the dean and chapter for the space which these monuments occupied, nor had they specified that the rights of the dean and chapter of Westminster should be different from those of other ecclesiastical bodies, under similar circumstances. If the hon. member objected to the payment of those fees which were demanded for the exhibition of these monuments, let him refuse payment, and try with the dean and chapter their right of demanding them; but let him not call on that House for the production of documents, which he might use as evidence in resisting their demand before another tribunal. The hon. member had represented, that the minor canons claimed a right to something which the dean and chapter now appropriated to themselves. It appeared then, that there was a disputed claim among these persons; and, was it for parliament, overwhelmed as they were with business, to interfere in their disputes? He thought not. The hon. member had called for papers which were, in fact, the titles of
195
Mr. Hume
declared that the substance, but not the form, of his intended motions had been preserved in the Order-book; and he must say, that he was surprised at the presuming and extraordinary manner in which he had been remarked on by the right hon. gentleman opposite [cries of "order, order!"].
The Speaker
requested to know whether what the hon. member was about to state was in reply or explanation?
Mr. Hume
answered, that it was in explanation.
The Speaker
observed, that in that case the remarks of the hon. member were certainly out of order, since no gentleman, when speaking only in explanation, was at liberty to make remarks on a preceding speaker. He would take that opportunity of saying, that the practice of giving notices of motions, though not a matter of right, was a practice which had grown up and been established, on account of its usefulness, which consisted in this, that it afforded to other members a knowledge of what was intended to be brought forward for discussion. If any irregularity crept into these notices, who was to blame? Certainly the hon. member who gave them. The hon. member for Aberdeen should not be surprised that he had alluded to this circumstance, since there was no one who gave more notices of motions than that hon. member. If at any time there was any error in the entry of the clerks, he trusted that the hon. member would state it, that it might be immediately corrected.
196
Mr. Hume
observed, that the substance of his notice was entered correctly, but not the words; and he therefore contended, that he was not bound by the words which had been inserted. His object in calling for these papers was to get rid of an imposition, by which, in one year 2,000
l.
l.
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, he had hoped that the returns moved for would have been granted without hesitation. There was no ground whatever for the exactions of the dean and chapter of Westminster, and their practice in this respect had not even the plea of antiquity to recommend it; because it was an infringement of which many hon. gentlemen in that House had seen the beginning. He had been educated at Westminster school, and he knew (having passed through it hundreds of times in every year) that there was a passage from the cloisters through Poets' corner into that part of Westminster. At the period to which he alluded the lower part of Westminster-abbey was open daily; and this practice he thought was an extremely useful one. It was true that admission might still be obtained upon payment, but it was by no means the same thing to be escorted by an impertinent and talkative verger, as it would be to spend a solitary hour there on a rainy day, contemplating the monuments of the illustrious persons whose fame was perpetuated there, and thus acquiring a knowledge of the history of the country. To what purpose had the national money been spent, but to hand down to posterity, by means of those monuments, the achievements of the heroes to whose memory
197
198
Mr. Hudson Gurney
merely rose to suggest, that the charter required was most probably either to be found at the Tower or elsewhere amongst the public records; and therefore the calling for private title was an objection that could not be supported. He had no wish to trench on the rights of private property, and still less to cause any diminution of the incomes of the minor canons; but he considered the free ingress of the public to Westminster Abbey to be a national object; and, as such, felt himself bound to support the motion.
Mr. Ashurst
said, that much inconvenience would result from the indiscriminate admission into the Abbey of the public at all times. The monuments would be exposed to every kind of mutilation and injury. From the earliest periods it had been found necessary to take measures to guard against this evil. Previous to the Commonwealth such measures had been adopted. In every church the incumbent had a right to a fee for the erection of a monument. And with regard to public monuments, there was undoubtedly a right to tax the public to a certain extent for the purpose of preserving them, and keeping them in repair. It was well known that a more honourable as well as a more benevolent man than the present dean of Westminster did not exist; and that he was wholly incapable of giving his support to any system justly deserving of reprehension. On numerous occasions that excellent person had indulged, from his private purse, in acts of the greatest liberality and generosity.
Sir J. Newport
allowed, that if it could be shown that from the earliest times, the dean and chapter of Westminster had exercised the right of excluding from the Abbey, there might be some pretext for declining the proposed inquiry; but when it was well known that from a large part of the Abbey the public had been shut out only in late times, he was at a loss to conceive on what principle resistance could be made to a motion, calling on the dean and chapter to account for their conduct. It was said, that the fees collected from visitors to the Abbey went to
199
Mr. Wynn
regretted the system which had been introduced into the Abbey, but was of opinion that the House could not with propriety interfere. He could not see what authority they possessed for doing so. He believed it to be the right of every dean and chapter to 6hut up their church, except during the hours of divine service. He allowed, however, that the mode in which the public had of late years been shut out of the Abbey was much to be lamented. He allowed that it was an injudicious use of the power possessed by the dean and chapter; but he did not think that the House had any authority to interfere. If, for instance, a road were to be improperly stopped up, could the House interfere? By no means. Recourse for redress must be had to a court of law. If such a motion as the present were
200
Mr. Baring
could see no objection to the production of the paper in question. The House might afterwards determine whether or not to proceed further. He thought the tone of the answer made by the dean and chapter unjustifiably high. They had no right to tell that House, that it intended some improper aggression on their property.
The House then divided: For the motion 56; Against it 72; Majority 16.
Mr. Hume
then moved, "That there be laid before this House, Copy of the Grant made to the Choir of Westminster in 1697, on the conditions 'that receiving the benefits from the exhibition of the Monuments, they should keep the Monuments always clean.'"
Mr. Secretary Peel
seeing a difference between this motion and the former one, did not intend to oppose it. He begged to be understood, that, in contending for the right of the dean and chapter to exclude or admit, he did not vindicate the amount of their charges. The former motion could not be enforced; and it was not wise to commit the House to a measure in which they might not succeed. He regretted exceedingly the manner in which the return already ordered had been made. It would have been much better, if the dean and chapter had complied simply with the order, which was so worded as not to excite any unpleasant feelings. He wished, however, that the hon. member would postpone his motion, in order to afford an opportunity of ascertaining whether the grant was, or was not from the Crown. He had, in the first instance, conceived it to be a grant from the Crown to the dean and chapter, on the condition of keeping the monuments clean.
Mr. Hume
said, there could exist no doubt that it was a grant from the dean and chapter to the choir.
Mr. Canning
wished the hon. member would postpone his motion, on the understanding that, if it turned out upon inquiry to be a grant from the Crown, no opposition would be made to the production of the document. If the grant really were from the dean and chapter, he should certainly object to its being produced.
201
Mr. Hume
said, that he really did not know what the right hon. gentleman intended by his distinction.
Mr. Peel
said, that the first motion was for a copy of the charter of queen Elizabeth to the dean and chapter, as evidence of their title and property, and of their general right of regulating the cathedral: To this he should object, on principle. The next motion was for a copy of the grant of 1697. He had understood that that was a distinct grant from the Crown, to levy a fee from every person seeing the monuments, upon the condition of the dean and chapter keeping them clean; and finding that they had been relieved of this charge by a grant of public money, he thought this made a very distinct case, and entitled the public to inquire how the matter stood. If the grant was from the Crown, he was ready to acquiesce in the motion; but he wished the hon. member to postpone the debate, in order to give an opportunity for inquiry.
Mr. Hume
objected to withdraw his motion. The public money had been voted for the object of cleaning and repairing the monuments, and the public had a right to know how it had been applied.
Mr. Denman
advised his hon. friend neither to postpone nor to withdraw his motion, as there was quite enough before the House to enable them to come to a vote upon the question. Indeed he was of opinion that, if the money was not a grant immediately from the Crown to the dean and chapter, there was the greater reason for an inquiry into the causes why the delegated trust had been neglected. He considered it to be extremely ungracious in the right hon. Secretary, in a matter of great public importance, to thrust the onus of proving a public right on any individual, by his remedy in a court of law. He could inform the House, that the boasted remedy of a court of law was not always very expeditious, very certain, or very cheap. The same answer might be given in many other cases. In cases of charities, for instance. In applications to the House against any gross and afflicting abuse of a public charity, a minister might say, "Go and file a bill in the court of Chancery; I assure you, the Chancery-court is a court of the greatest purity, and it possesses ample powers;" and thus an individual might be five-and-twenty or thirty years obtaining redress, which it was the duty of the House to grant him
202
The House divided: For the motion 37 Against it 68; Majority 31.
Mr. Hume
expressed his dissent from the proceedings of the House. He said, that whatever might be the differences of opinion with respect to the technical propriety or impropriety of granting this or that document, it was the opinion of every part of the House, that the present system of managing the cathedral, with respect to the admission of the public, was most reprehensible. This was evidently the undivided sentiment within the House; and he need scarcely add, that in this, as in many other instances, the sentiment of the public had preceded that of the House of Commons. He would withdraw his other motions; but it was his intention to propose, on a future day, a motion expressive of the sense of the House on the extraordinary conduct of the dean and chapter.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS BILL.
Lord John Russell
having moved the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill,
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that the bill contained but there effective clauses, to every one of which he objected, and should therefore oppose its going into a committee.
The bill was then committed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, April 14 1826.
SLAVERY IN THE WEST INDIES—MEMORIAL OF THE ASSEMBLY AT ANTIGUA.
Lord Dudley and Ward
said, he rose to present a petition of considerable importance. It was the petition of the Board and Council and House of Assembly of the island of Antigua; but it
203
204
l.
205
206
The Earl of Liverpool
wished the petition to be received as the petition of the body of the House of Assembly; but doubted whether that could be done, as it was only signed by the Speaker.
Lord Dudley and Ward
thought it would answer every purpose for which the petition was intended, if it was received merely as the petition of the Speaker.
The Earl of Liverpool
was desirous, that the question should not be decided, until it was known what had been done in similar cases. He did not see how it was possible to avoid receiving petitions, in some way or other, from the colonial assemblies. If the right of parliament to legislate for the colonies was maintained, there must be some means of receiving petitions from them. He therefore thought that inquiry should be made. Some precedent, perhaps, would be found of petitions of the same kind from the American colonies.
The Earl of Lauderdale
observed, that if inquiry was to take place in order to do justice to one party, he hoped that justice would be done to others. Petitions which were presented from the moderators of the general Assembly of the church of Scotland for the whole of that body, and from the moderators of synods, legally signed according to the law of Scotland, were still only received as the petitions of the persons who signed them.
Lord Melville
corroborated what the noble earl had just stated.
Lord Calthorpe
vindicated the abolitionists from the charges made against them. They did not call for rash and precipitate measures, but were desirous that caution and deliberation should accompany every step taken for the emancipation of the slaves. They were also sensible of the blame which attached to themselves in having suffered the evil of slavery so long to exist. He could not help agreeing with those who considered that the colonial legislatures had acted very improperly; but he should certainly rejoice to see the imputations against them disproved.
Lord Dudley and Ward
remarked, that very bitter censures had been pronounced on the colonial assemblies at the meetings in support of negro-emancipation. As to
207
Lord Calthorpe
observed, that what he said on the occasion alluded to, was, that it would be desirable that some visible approach to the emancipation of the negroes should be made during the life-time of the illustrious individual whose name was so intimately identified with that question. It was merely observed, that if that individual lived to see such an approach to abolition as would give more certainty as to the period of the accomplishment of that object, it would afford him great satisfaction and consolation.
CORN LAWS.
Lord King said, he held in his hand a petition signed by several thousands of the population of Preston and its neighbourhood. It came from a district which was populous, but grievously oppressed by the Corn-laws—that great dead weight which bore down all classes, one excepted. The petition was therefore against pauperism and famine; against the pauperism price of corn, which was 60
s.
s.
208
The Marquis of Salisbury
was surprised that the noble lord, holding the opinions he did, had suffered the session to pass away without bringing forward any motion for the discussion of the general question. This would be a fairer course of proceeding than attempting day by day to stir up and irritate the feelings of the manufacturing population. If the noble lord brought the question fairly forward, it would soon be proved that the welfare of the manufacturing classes depended upon the prosperity of the landed interest; but the noble lord chose rather to let the session elapse, than to bring the question to a direct issue.
Lord King
said, he was quite willing to bring the whole question forward, if any effect could be produced by so doing. It was generally understood that the only alteration of the corn-laws that could be carried was a protecting duty. Now, a bill for imposing a duty of any kind could not originate with their lordships. If the forms of the House permitted it, he would bring in a bill to-morrow.
The Earl of Lauderdale
observed, that it had already been often pointed out to the noble lord, that a more manly course for him to follow would be, to bring the question of the corn-laws regularly before the House; but, instead of doing so, he preferred letting off every now and then a few little squibs. If the noble lord knew any thing of the history of the corn-laws, he could not stand up in that House and assert, that the object of those who wished to maintain those laws was to give dear bread to the poor. In the reign of Charles 2nd the protection against foreign corn amounted to 8
l.
209
s.
Lord King
was not surprised that the noble earl should object to the course he pursued. The noble earl blamed him for using squibs, and asked why he did not bring the question regularly forward. Now, this was easily accounted for. Every one had his own particular mode
210
l.
The Earl of Malmesbury
was not much disposed to the present sort of warfare, but could not help congratulating the House on the explanation which had just been obtained from the noble lord. It now appeared that the noble lord did not look forward to a free trade in corn, but that he was for a protecting duty. That was the reason he had assigned for not bringing the subject regularly forward. He always thought that the noble lord's doctrine was, that the poor man should have cheap corn, come from where it might —from Germany or Japan. He could not before understand why the noble lord came forward with speeches every day, but now the matter was clearly explained.
LOCAL PAYMENT OF BANK NOTES.
The Marquis of Lansdown
rose, for the purpose of moving the second reading of a bill, the object of which was, to make bank notes payable where they were issued. He thought it would not be necessary for him to detain their lordships long in recommending or detailing a
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212
213
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The Earl of Farnham
said, he had no objection to the bill, if it was meant to operate prospectively; but he Celt, that if it was to relate to the paper now in circulation, great difficulty, and indeed much injustice, might arise from the manner in which it was at present worded. As it at present stood, its effect would be, to oblige bankers to call in their notes and to re-issue them with new stamps. And here he ought to observe, that there would be some difficulty in defining what was meant by the word "issue." He would illustrate what he meant, by a reference to the bank of Ireland. Then issues were very large, and a considerable part of the circulating medium of Ireland consisted of their notes, which were made payable in Dublin. Now, if these notes could not be taken in Belfast or Cork, al the notes which were at those places would be thrown back into the brand banks, from whence they had been issued and these banks would be compelled to make an entirely new issue of notes, payable in cash, at each of these cities. The object of the bill was one which he had no doubt, all their lordships wished to support, but its provisions were no framed exactly as they should be; and when it came into the committee, some better means of attaining that object, hi thought might be discovered.
The Earl of Rosslyn
observed, that a the bill now stood, it would nearly pu
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Lord Melville
said, that though rather late in the day, he should now give notice of what he intended to move in the committee, instead of discussing the bill at the present moment. The noble marquis had supposed that Scotchmen would be unanimous in whatever they said on this measure. He believed that supposition would not be found to be quite correct; at least with respect to the question of what was fit to be done with regard to Scotland. But there certainly could be no division of opinion among them on a question of flagrant injustice. It was proposed to alter the Scotch system of banking, and to prohibit the circulation of all notes under 5
l.
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The Earl of Lauderdale
said, that, after what had fallen from his noble friend, he had no further objection to urge to this bill. Still, however, he must declare that he thought the title one of the most defective that could have been chosen. It appeared to him to have no meaning whatever; and, as to the bill itself, he believed that, if it was brought into a court of law, it would be found to be of but little effect. He had no difficulty in saying, that if Ireland had not been a part of the United Kingdom, this bill would have had no existence. Its object was, to make all notes payable where they were issued. Now, an issue to an agent, or to a partner, was, in law, such an issue as to come within the words of this act; and as all the notes of the bank of Ireland were, in that sense of the word, issued in Dublin, they must always be payable there, and this act would, therefore, produce no difference in the matter. He thought he could make the act more effective in this respect; but then he wished to know whether, to gain such an object, their lordships were prepared to run their heads against a greater evil? The Dublin bank had branch banks at Sligo and Belfast. Now, suppose he had business at Sligo, and received from the bank there, notes issued from the Belfast bank for a sum of 5,000
l.
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The Earl of Limerick
said, that at the first blush of the question he had thought this bill was a very proper measure; but, on further consideration, he felt some objections to it. He was inclined to adopt the same course which had been taken by the noble lord, who had recommended examination and inquiry. Noble lords from his own part of the United Kingdom were not generally so united as those who owned Scotland for their birthplace. He should therefore feel inclined to enlist under their banners, and take refuge behind the sanitary cordon which the latter had attempted to establish. He thought the present measure ought not to be precipitated. Examination ought to be afforded, and that examination ought to be instituted with respect to Ireland as well as Scotland.
Lord King
observed, that this bill was introduced to prevent disreputable practices, but it unfortunately extended to Scotland, and consequently it had the whole body of Scotch lords on their legs to oppose it. It put him in mind of a passage in Mr. Burke's celebrated speech on economical reform, in which he stated that lord Talbot had attempted to reform the king's household, but that the measure was defeated, because the king's scullion was a member of parliament. So, here, he found that all attempts at putting an end to the disreputable practice would be frustrated, because some
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The Earl of Caledon
hoped the noble marquis would persevere in his motion. He saw nothing to prevent the House from going on, even whilst an inquiry was taking place.
Lord Clifden
thought that, as the measure had for its object the restriction of paper issues, it ought to be adopted. He had seen the bad effects of the present system in Ireland; and, if bank notes-there were to be payable only in Dublin, the same evils might occur again. It was not men of fortune, but the lower orders who would be the sufferers. He believed, however, that, owing to the misery lately endured, the inhabitants at large would only have gold; and if so the evil would thus effect its own cure.
The Earl of Liverpool
thought the object contemplated by this bill a most desirable one, and he would, therefore, vote for its second reading; but then a great many difficulties presented themselves, and the House must take care that, in trying to remove one evil, they did not fall upon another. He would, therefore, suggest to the noble marquis the expediency of allowing a longer period to elapse than usual, before the bill was committed. He was in expectation of receiving important information on this subject next week; and the discussion, which the bill relating to provincial banks was undergoing in the other House, might also throw additional light on this subject. Under these circumstances he would vote for the second reading to-day, and suggest that the motion for referring it to a committee be fixed for Tuesday week.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, in explanation, that he intended the bill to have a prospective effect, and he though the period from which it should come into operation, should be the 10th of October. With regard to the technical objection raised by a noble earl, he could state, that he had taken the advice of lawyers, who assured him that it was fully adequate to effect the object for which it was intended. He would avail himself of the suggestion of the noble earl opposite, and fix the committee for Tuesday se'nnight.
The bill was then read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Friday, April 14 1826.
BANK-NOTE FORGERY.
Mr. Grenfell
219
l.
Mr. Pearse
said, that this plan had already been submitted to the Bank, and found inefficient to the end proposed. The Bank directors were anxious to adopt any measure that could put an end to forgery; but no plan had been laid before them that could effect that object. He was sorry that the hon. gentleman had let fall an expression which seemed to imply that the directors had not done their duty. When he said that the directors ought at least to endeavour to provide a better note, the inference was, that they had not already used the best means in their power for that purpose. Now, he could assert that such was not the fact. No expense had been spared in endeavouring to effect that object; but, of course, when the directors found that the plans submitted to them had not the requisite merit, they were obliged to reject them. The hon. member must be aware that commissioners had been appointed to inquire, whether any efficient plan could be devised to prevent the evil of forgery, and that a report bad been made by those gentlemen, that they could not hit upon one. The Bank had made every effort in their power to attain that end; but they found that the notes of those who came forward with plans were as easily imitable as those at present in circulation. One of the projectors had actually mistaken an imitation of his own note for an impression from his original invention.
SLAVERY IN ANTIGUA—MEMORIAL OF COUNCIL AND HOUSE OF ASSEMBLY.—
Mr. Baring
begged leave to claim the
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Mr. Manning
corroborated the statement of the hon. member for Taunton relative to the state of the negro slaves in the island of Antigua. Of all the colonies, this had proceeded most rapidly in the amelioration of the condition of the slave population.
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Ordered to lie on the table.
EDUCATION IN IRELAND—PETITION OF ROMAN CATHOLICS.
Mr. John Smith
rose to present a petition from the Catholics of Ireland, assembled at an aggregate meeting, praying for a grant of money for the Education of Catholics in Ireland in their own way. The petition was signed by several thousands of persons, and, he believed, expressed the sentiments of the great body of Irish Catholics. He requested the attention of the House while he stated the object of the petition. The petitioners complained that the education of the poor in Ireland had not been sufficiently attended to since the Reformation. Before that time they had been supplied with the means of education out of the funds of the Church; and since that time some of them had been educated by means of contributions from the Catholics themselves. They complained of the conduct of the Education Commission with respect to the Catholics, but in that complaint he could hardly agree with them. That Commission had recommended, that the Protestant and Catholic children should be educated together, and the petitioners claimed, that where the Catholic children were the majority, the master should be a Catholic; and where they were the minority, that a Catholic usher should be appointed. They insisted that no books should be read by the Catholic children, except such as were approved by the Catholic bishops of Ireland; and they complained, that the House had advanced money to certain Education societies, whose real object was, not the education of the Irish poor, but their conversion to Protestantism. The House ought to be thoroughly informed as to that fact, before they voted any more of the public money in this way. That there were some societies whose real object, under pretence of education, was proselytism, he fully believed; and he was not sure that even the Kildare-street Society was wholly exempt from that imputation. Although he himself was fully convinced of the importance of teaching children to read the Scriptures, yet nothing could be more illiberal and intolerable than to compel the Catholics to read books which they did not like. He requested the attention of the House to the manner in
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Mr. Butterworth
said, that, as friends of the government, of the state, and of the protestant religion, which was strictly interwoven with the constitution, they were bound to refuse the prayer of this petition. The people of Ireland were not disinclined to reject the Bible. The priests alone prevented its reception. But for them, education would go on well in that country. They prevented
230
l.
Mr. W, Smith
said, there was not an hon. member in that House whose religious opinions differed more widely from those of the Roman Catholics, than his own. Still, he thought that the state ought to suffer every class of persons to educate their children as they thought proper. What be wanted was, to see education, of some sort or other, diffused all over Ireland; and he would infinitely prefer seeing the Irish poor educated in the principles of the Catholic religion, even though we could never hope for
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Mr. Carus Wilson
concurred in some respects with the sentiments of the hon mover, and differed in others. He was willing to allow that every possible means ought to be adopted for diffusing the blessings of education among the Irish poor, and that any education, whether Catholic or otherwise, was better than none. But with respect to the question, whether the Scriptures should or should not be introduced into those mixed schools, he felt himself bound to say, that any system of education, which had for its basis the exclusion of the holy Scriptures, should meet with his most decided opposition. The Scriptures were the birthright of every one, and he could not consent to their exclusion.
Mr. G. Bankes
concurred in so much of what had fallen from the hon. member for Dover, that it was almost useless for him to say any thing upon the subject. There was no foundation for saying that there was no religion taught in the English schools. He had himself attended one for nearly eleven years, and he could not, on recollection, point out one of them in which the Scriptures did not form some part of the system of education. The masters of those schools were members of the established church, and distinguished for their piety. The system could not be presumed to have been altered since that time.
Colonel Trench
said, he felt the necessity of education to the Irish poor as much as any one. There was a strong appetite for it, he was happy to say, among them; but there were two great enemies which opposed its diffusion, the priests, and those enthusiasts, who, by their mistaken
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Mr. Maurice Fitzgerald
said, that the hon, member for Dover had favoured them with a sermon against popery, with which the petition had nothing to do. It only prayed for a portion of the public money for the purposes of educating the people. He could not therefore conceive why the hon. member should have travelled so far out of his way. The Catholic clergy required to be met by a spirit of conciliation, and if they had only the regular clergy to deal with, he had no doubt harmony would have prevailed; but a set of sectarians had crept in, and introduced such a spirit of rancour and animosity, as to prejudice the people against the Bible and those who taught its unrestricted perusal. They conceived that these persons were desirous of detaching them from their ancient faith. And was it not natural that the clergy should be roused by such attempts. The hon. member for Dover had contrasted the conduct of the Irish clergy with those of other countries, and particularly with that of Scotland? But what was the difference between the two?
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Mr. J. Smith
said, that all the petitioners asked for, was a right which every class of people ought to enjoy; namely, the right to put such books as they pleased into the hands of their children, for the purpose of educating them.
Mr. Butterworth
vindicated himself from the attack made upon him by the hon. member for Cambridge. He denied that the conduct of the societies to which the hon. and gallant member had alluded, were in any respect injudicious or mischievous. As long as the great mass of the people of Ireland were allowed to remain in ignorance, the Roman Catholics were quiet, for ignorance best suited their purposes; but the moment it was attempted to give education to them, the priests rose up to oppose it, and in their efforts to follow up that opposition, they were the cause of all the mischiefs that occurred ! in Ireland. They intruded themselves into Bible meetings to which they were not invited, and were the occasion of much disturbance, on some occasions; attended with no little danger to the pro-
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Sir J. Newport
said, it was not his intention to have offered any observation on the petition before the House, but after what had fallen from the last speaker, he could not remain silent. The hon. member had alluded to a Bible meeting which was held in Carlow. Now, he would assert, that the circumstances mentioned by the hon. member connected with that meeting were wholly without foundation; and he was enabled to contradict them on most excellent authority— that of colonel Rochford, who presided at the meeting on the occasion. That most respectable gentleman, who was deservedly respected by all parties, had stated in his evidence before the committee on the state of Ireland, that the accounts given of the proceedings at that meeting, and which the hon. member had just repeated, were misrepresentations of the real facts. The whole originated in an alarm which was unaccountably raised in the room. A rush to the doors was the consequence, but there was not the least truth in the imputation made on the Catholics. Such was the testimony of a most respectable witness, who had been selected by both parties to act as chairman. It was false to say that the Catholic church absolutely refused the Bible to its members. Such was not one of its tenets. They merely objected to placing the Bible without note or comment in the hands of young persons and in that view they were borne out by some of the most dignified members of the church of England, who opposed the indiscriminate reading of the Bible, without the church catechism. He pro-
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Ordered to lie on the table.
BANK CHARTER AMENDMENT BILL.
On the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill,
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that at the commencement of the session they had been informed, that the banking system, now liable to, and productive of, very serious evils, should be placed on an improved and solid foundation. Towards the fulfilment of that promise, nothing had been done save the introduction of this unhappy bill, which had come to them from the Lords; under which, it was next to impossible, that any banking establishment could be set on foot; and, if such were the case, it would be a public nuisance. The bill was copied from the Irish bill; and the Irish bill only-worked by the contradiction of its clauses giving opportunity for evasion. The notes of the Irish banks were not to be payable in Dublin; and they were not to draw upon Dublin for sums under 50
l.
l.,
237
l.
Mr. Gurney
said, it was possible the Bank directors might have come down to the House prepared to admit such alterations in the bill in the committee, as might render it operative; which, in its
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Mr. Pearse
addressed the committee, but in so low a tone as to be altogether inaudible.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he could not enter into any of the views of the hon. member, with respect to the probability of the country being deluged with paper, or to that of the new banks being managed with improvidence. He could not believe that the country would be placed in any such jeopardy, because it might be the pleasure of parliament to modify the existing Bank charter, or hereafter to decline continuing the privileges of the Bank, by putting the law on a more extended scale than that on which it now stood. It was not necessary to argue either of those questions; for the passing of the bill through its former stages sufficiently-proved that the House was desirous that some facilities should be given to the formation of banks upon a more extended scale than that which the present state of the law allowed. He could not believe, that the only safe system of banking was
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Mr. Hudson Gurney
wished to direct the attention of the committee to the clause prohibiting co-partnerships "from borrowing, owing, or taking up any sum or sums upon their bills or notes within sixty-five miles from London, or at any place not exceeding the distance of sixty miles from London; and prohibiting such co-partnerships from having any house of business, or establishment as bankers in London, within the prescribed limits." He wished to ask the Attorney-general, whether these bankers, under this clause, could or could not discount and re-discount, bills through their agents in London?
The Attorney General
said, that considering that the discounting of bills was a principal branch in the business of banking, and that the bill prohibited any company, consisting of more than six persons, from carrying on that business in London, or within the prescribed limits of sixty-five miles, it was his opinion that such co-partnerships were precluded the right of having an establishment in London for the purpose of discounting bills.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that that answer was final as to the bill. Any banker so circumstanced must necessarily stop payment. The Bank of England itself could not assist such establishment; and the bill must necessarily be given up altogether.
Mr. Denman
said, that nothing could be less satisfactory than the shape ilk which this measure came before the House. It had been promised, in the beginning of the session, that it would be the result of the wisdom of parliament; but, after it had passed through the Lords, and had been discussed, of course, in the cabinet, it contained provisions which it was impossible to understand or agree to. He thought, therefore, that the shortest way of disposing of it, as well as the most satisfactory, would be to throw it out at once.
Mr. Leycester
thought, that the greater the number of partners in banks, the less security there would be for the respectability of their character, or the solvency of their circumstances. He considered the present bill objectionable in every point of view.
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Mr. Monck
considered the bill, not as a benefit to the country, but as a positive nuisance. Under the present condition of the Bank restrictions it was impossible for the joint-stock companies to meet with success. It was not sufficient that a paper currency should be safe; it was essential that it should be issued in the most convenient manner to the public, and in every respect be made to represent all the qualities of a metallic currency. The mischief of the present bill was, that it destroyed all universality, and made the new notes to resemble the local tokens. It was impossible, under the present system, to assimilate the country notes to those of the London Bank. If they got out of their peculiar jurisdiction, the holders of them would be put to great inconvenience to get rid of them. The greatest inconvenience was now felt from these local notes. The poor who happened to hold one of them in a district in which it was not issued, were often put to the greatest inconvenience, and obliged to submit to a loss, in order to induce coachmen or travellers to convey it to where it was payable. He thought it would be much better to give up the present measure, until the expiration of the Bank charter.
Mr. Spring Rice
was surprised to hear the hon. Bank director say, that private banks were preferable to the Bank of England. One great objection with him to the present measure was, that it gave a monopoly of local circulation to the Bank of England; as its branch banks would be established free from the difficulties which the joint-stock banks would have to contend with. He recommended that publicity should be given to the amount of local issues of paper.
Mr. J. P. Grant
contended, that, although government had probably made the best bargain they could with the Bank of England, yet they had not done enough for the permanent advantage of the country. There could not be, in his opinion, any danger of over-issues, which were apprehended on the part of the country banks; because, as long as they were compelled to pay their notes in notes of the Bank of England, and those were payable in gold, there must be an effectual check upon too great an extension of credit in that way. In remarking upon the clause which prohibited the chartered banks from discounting bills or issuing notes in London, he begged to ask,
242
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that a similar clause was inserted in the Irish Banking act, and it was only on the insertion of such a clause that the Bank of England consented to waive the privileges of its charter. He could not undertake to answer for the exact legal effect of the words of the clause; but if there was any obscurity in the words, or if there was any thing contained in them which would practically prevent the formation of these co-partnerships, such was not the intention either of the Bank or the government; and these words might be so altered as to remove the objection entertained against the clause. As to the attack which the learned gentleman had made upon the bill, it was directed against the measure generally, and not against this clause. If the learned gentleman had read the correspondence between the Bank and government he would have seen that the substance of this clause had been insisted upon by the Bank.
Mr. Denman
said, there was not a
243
Mr. P. Grenfell
asked, whether the operation of this clause would be to prohibit any number of country bankers from applying capital which they had in the hands of their London agent in discounting bills.
The Attorney General
said, that, as he understood, the principal business of a banker consisted in discounting bills, he certainly thought that the clause, as it now stood, went to prevent any number of bankers, exceeding six, from discounting bills in London.
Mr. P. Grenfell
said, that that being the case, this clause must have the effect of preventing the formation of large joint-Stock companies.
Sir M. W. Ridley
wished to know whether this clause would have the effect of preventing a country firm of less than six from discounting bills in London.
The Attorney General
said, he did not think that a firm consisting of less than six was prohibited by this clause; but he thought that one consisting of more than six, was prohibited.
Mr. Home Drummond
said, it had long been the practice in Scotland, where the banking firms consisted of more than six partners, to draw bills upon London, and to have them discounted as often as it might be necessary. Whether this was legal or not he did not know, but he was sure it could not be done in future under this clause.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it had never been the intention of government, or of the Bank, to prevent joint-stock companies from applying their capital in discounting bills in London. However, if the words were so obscure as not to give to those companies the privileges which, by this bill, were intended to be granted to them, there could not be, on his part, any objection to introduce, at a future stage, such words as would give legal efficiency to the concessions made by the Bank.
Mr. Attwood
thought, that if the word "bills" were left out, and the prohibition limited to the promissory notes of the companies, there would be no objection.
Mr. Pearse
said, that any alteration would require great care. In order to give time for properly considering it, he thought it would be better that the chairman should report progress.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought
244
Mr. Hume
said, he had never seen such a mass of absurdity as this bill presented. It was said to be an Irish act; and he could believe it from the number of absurdities it contained. He had been often charged with committing blunders in the House, and perhaps he might have done so; but if ever he could be justly accused of such absurdities as were contained in this bill, upon which the whole strength of the administration had been employed for a considerable period, he was content that the right hon. gentleman should set him down for a fool.
The Attorney General
said, that unless gentlemen would take the trouble to read the clause, they could not understand it. The clause had been copied verbatim from an Irish act, which had been in force for some years.
The consideration of this clause was postponed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, April 17 1826.
ROMAN CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.
The Marquis of Lansdown,
in rising to present to their lordships the petition of the Catholics of Ireland, said, that, although the petition he was about to ask permission to lay on their table was one relating to a subject on which petitions had been presented on many former occasions, yet it was one which their lordships would feel, from its magnitude and importance, that he could not lay on their table, without wishing to say a few words, though he had no wish to involve in controversial discussion a subject which hereafter must be again brought under their lordships' notice. The petition had been placed in his hands in consequence of an event which he, in common with their lordships, must deeply deplore. He alluded to the loss of that distinguished individual, to whose hands it had generally been intrusted; whose whole political life, from its commencement to its close, had, from particular circumstances, been closely connected with this subject; and who continued, to the last, its able, uncompromising, and disinterested advocate. Their lordships would feel that, though the ground had closed over him, as it had
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Earl Grey
said, he had to call their lordships' attention to a petition from the same body as that with which the first petition presented by his noble friend originated, and which could not have been intrusted to the care of a more zealous and able advocate. His noble friend had that day shown that his zeal for the cause which he espoused was tempered by the soundest discretion, in refraining from doing any thing more than to make the usual motion for laying the petition on the table. It was his intention to follow the same course as that which had been adopted by his noble friend—namely, to
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Ordered to lie on the table.
SLAVERY IN THE WEST-INDIA COLONIES.
Lord Suffield,
after expressing his sense of disadvantage in following the two noble lords who had just sat down, and who had rendered an interesting subject near home doubly interesting by their powers of eloquence, said, he felt it was now his duty to direct their lordships' attention to grievances, not, perhaps, of a less interesting nature, in a more remote region. Since he had first declared his hope that the motion which he was about to submit would meet with their lordships' unanimous approbation, nothing had occurred to diminish his confidence. It was an abstract proposition, unconnected with any matter upon which difference of opinion
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261
Earl Bathurst
said, that the noble lord who had proposed this address, had accurately described the difficulty which government had met with in endeavouring to carry into effect the wishes of parliament. He was of opinion, that the amelioration in the condition of the slaves should be effected rather by the act of the colonial legislature, than by the interference of this government; but he did not see how that could bear on the present question; at least, how it could bear favourably to the noble lord, since surely he would not endeavour to exclude slave-owners from the colonial legislature. The noble lord had mentioned the several cases which had been decided in favour of the masters instead of the slaves. Surely the noble lord should have made some allowance on account of the difficulties of the situation of the fiscal. In the colony of Demerara, the fiscal had encountered the greatest difficulties, on account of the opinions of the slaves; and before he could make any impression on them, he was compelled to undeceive them as to what was intended by this country; for they actually imagined that the parliament had resolved to set them free. It appeared from the noble lord's statement, that the commissioners employed by government were possessed of some property in slaves. Now, all that he could say was, that when he concurred in the appointment of that gentleman, he was not aware of the circumstance, or he certainly should not have thought a slave-owner the most proper person to appoint to such an office. He owned he was rather surprised at the charge of inconsistency made against that gentleman;
262
Lord Suffield
was astonished that the noble earl should admit the principles on which he proposed to act, and yet decline to carry any portion of them into execution.
Lord Ellenborough
said, he would have been better pleased if the noble earl had given a direct negative to this motion. He thought there was no reason whatever for passing this resolution; but that, on the contrary, it would be productive of the most mischievous effects. He was convinced that, if any thing was done, it must be by the silent operation of the expressed opinion of this government, and by the example which they set in the treatment of the slaves in the colonies more immediately under their control. He thought this resolution would destroy the operation of that opinion. As to our legislating for the colonies, of this he was convinced, that ministers dare not submit such a proposition—that parliament would not adopt it; and if it did adopt it, that the people would not second it—nor could it, if it were carried, be executed without danger to the colonies, and without incurring the risk of sacrificing the slaves themselves. He thought that in this matter there could be nothing better than the example of good treatment to the slaves by those immediately under the control of the government. He re-
263
Lord Calthorpe
supported the motion. While public functionaries in the colonies were, he said, permitted to be the owners of slaves, or to have a reversionary interest in that species of property, it must necessarily produce a conflict of duties, and operate injuriously to the slave population.
Viscount Dudley and Ward
deprecated the sort of imputation which had been thrown out against himself, of having on former occasions expressed himself with some degree of satirical warmth of those who were most earnest in their applications for the immediate abolition of negro slavery. He begged to assure the noble mover, that no man was more disinclined than himself to indulge in the language of sarcasm upon any measures submitted for the consideration of their lordships. On the present occasion, however, he must be allowed to declare that he could not, by any means, concur in the inferences which the noble lord opposite appeared disposed to draw from the long string of cases which had been quoted by him. Many of those cases were already well known, and had been much discussed and commented upon; especially in a very able pamphlet, which had been recently put forth by a society, of which the noble lord was himself a member. Still he felt himself much obliged to the noble lord for the moderation displayed in his speech; seeing that he had not gone quite so far as some others; for, while it was suggested, in the publication which he had just adverted to, that the planters and proprietors of slaves in our West-India islands should not be eligible to the magistracy, and other offices in the colonies, another writer had gone the length of proposing, that the legislature should declare those who were guilty of the crime of possessing plantations in the West Indies, cultivated
264
Lord St. Vincent,
as being better acquainted with the present condition of affairs in Jamaica than in any other of the islands, thought the present a favourable opportunity for saying a few words on the subject of the payment of ecclesiastical functionaries in that island. He had great pleasure in stating, that from the moment of the arrival of the bishop of Jamaica on his diocese, there was a general manifestation, among all ranks of the community, of a solicitude to put the whole of the clerical appointments upon the best and most liberal footing. The salaries of the rectors were voluntarily raised, and the stipends of the curates increased in proportion; while the vestries of the parishes were relieved from some obligations relative to certificates, which had formerly been found of much inconvenience. In short, every thing had been done which was best calculated to further the important objects of the bishop's appointment. The noble mover seemed to labour under some misapprehension with respect to an act, which he understood the noble lord to speak of, as having been passed; namely, a compulsory measure upon the owners of West-Indian estates to enfranchise any of their slaves who might offer their estimated value as the price of their enfranchisement. He was not aware of the existence of any such act; but this he knew, that, so far as he was interested in slave property, he should always be very happy, under such circumstances, to give the slave his enfranchisement, the very next moment after he had presented himself to ask for it. But, in the mean time, he thought it would be exceeding impolitic to pass any compulsory enactments upon this subject; because, the first suggestions of compulsion must put an end to all voluntary acts of this nature on the part of those with whom it lay to perform them. For these reasons he should give his vote against the motion of the noble lord.
The motion was then withdrawn.
265
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, April 17 1826.
LONDON CORN EXCHANGE BILL.
On bringing up the report of this bill,
Sir T. Baring
said, he felt it to be his duty to enter his protest against this unwarrantable and uncalled-for measure. Its chief effect would be, to increase the number of retail dealers in corn, to the evident injury of those who had already embarked in that trade. That, however, was not the principal ground on which he founded his opposition. His great objection to the bill was, that it would interfere with the private rights of individuals—with the rights of those who were the possessors of the present Corn Exchange—without adequately remunerating them. The individuals who had formed this project might build a corn exchange where they pleased, but they had no right to throw down buildings which belonged to the occupiers of the existing Exchange. Who were the parties with whom this plan originated? They were, in fact, a joint-stock association, and they set this scheme on foot, as likely to be a speculation of a profitable nature. They asserted that a new exchange was greatly wanted. Now, he was disposed to doubt the correctness of that statement, as he believed the sale of corn had not increased within the last twenty or thirty years. He should therefore move "That the report be received this day six months."
Mr. Hume
seconded the motion. The present measure was, he said, one of those instances of interference with private property that ought to be resisted by the House. He had not attended the committee, but having seen their proceedings since they had closed their labours, he was sure, from what had transpired in the course of the inquiry, that the House would not tolerate this invasion of private property. The bill went to take from the present proprietors their property in the Corn Exchange, without any guarantee that another would be built. This was granting to the projectors a right which no persons ought to possess. If the present Corn Exchange was not large enough, he had no objection to allow a new one to be built by any body of individuals; but as no complaint had been made of the old Corn Exchange, he wished that to be suffered to remain also.
Sir E. Brydges
supported the measure
266
Mr. T. Wilson
said, it had been asserted by the supporters of this measure, that corn would sell better in a large market than in a small one. If this were so, and if the present corn market were not sufficiently spacious, let the parties enlarge it, or build another elsewhere. The existing corn market was built by private parties for their use and convenience, and the business had been carried on there very prosperously for a great many years. This measure, he thought, interfered with private rights as much as any measure could possibly do. He believed that the sale of corn by commission had decreased, instead of having increased, of late years; and, that therefore, there could be no necessity for a new market. The effect of this bill would be, to turn out those who were in possession of the old market, and to allow the projectors to replace them by any persons they pleased. At present, the rent of a stand was 10
l.
l.
l.
Mr. H. Sumner
expressed himself friendly to the bill. A new corn exchange was very much wanted. The present corn market was a joint-stock company concern, seventy-five years ago, when the consumption of corn could not have been near so great as it was at present. He believed the increased growth and importation of that article considerably exceeded the increase of the population, and required this new market. The present market was quite inadequate for the sale of corn; and the place opposite to it was equally so. In consequence of the want of necessary accommodation, the street in which the market stood was frequently rendered impassable. It was said, that this was an uncalled-for invasion of private property. He did not view it in that light; but even if it were considered as private property, this interference was rendered necessary for a public object. They were told that the new proprietors would, under this bill, go and turn out the old proprietors. It was no such thing. They said, "We
267
l.
Mr. Curteis
thought there was great necessity for a new market; and therefore he should support the bill.
Sir Robert Wilson
said, that a most respectable corn dealer had, in his evidence, pointed out the impossibility of carrying on business in the present state of the market, and it had come out in the course of the inquiry, that a bye-law had been framed by the society, or joint-stock company, who held the Exchange, by which they excluded from participating in this corn trade, every person except corn factors. The corn factors had thus elected themselves into a body, who were to mete out to the public whatever quantity of corn they thought fit, under their own regulations, and at their own price. That this was a monopoly, and a very profitable one, was apparent from this fact—that though the premises were not worth more than 10,000
l.
l.
268
l.,
l.
l.,
Mr. Calcraft
said, that the object of this bill was, to take by force the property of individuals; and, in order to put a face upon the matter, those individuals were calumniated as monopolists. That was the charge against them. Now, he suspected that the other parties were the monopolists; because, if they intended fair competition, they would leave the old Corn Exchange to compete with the new one. If this were done, he could understand what his gallant friend meant when he spoke of benefitting the public. The old proprietors only said, "Leave us as we are, and we will compete with you; but pray do not take away our property." What would the Bank of England say, if, at the end of their charter, a body of individuals declared, "We want to set up a bank to upset your monopoly; but we will not only do that, but insist on having your premises?" The Bank would make answer, "Leave us as we are. You may set up a bank in the most commodious place for the benefit of the public, and we will compete with you; let there be two banks, but leave our premises alone." This was his view of the case.
269
Sir E. Knatchbull
defended the character of those with whom this measure originated. It was admitted on all hands, that the present market was most inconvenient; and those individuals had taken the only method of remedying the inconvenience. But it was said, "cannot you build elsewhere?" It would, indeed, be speculating with a vengeance if they came to the west end of the town to erect a corn-market. These individuals had fixed upon the only place where the corn business could be efficiently carried on. If this bill was defeated, the building would still go on; but there would be no communication between the two markets, and the greatest possible inconvenience would be the consequence.
Mr. Alderman Wood
said, there could be no doubt that it would be very inconvenient to the promoters of this new market if the bill should not pass, as they had already purchased the ground for it close to the old one; but that was no valid reason why those who held private property should be compelled to surrender their rights. He, however, wished to see the matter amicably arranged; as he was of opinion, that there ought to be an enlarged market; but, he trusted parliament would not encourage an invasion of private property, especially as there was no charge brought against the individuals who would be affected by it.
The House then divided: For bringing up the Report 76; Against it 27. Majority 49.
CORN LAWS—IMPORTATION OF FOREIGN GRAIN—LONDON PETITION.
The Sheriffs of London presented at the bar a Petition from the Corporation of London, setting forth,
"That the petitioners, cordially approving of the principles of free trade, are desirous of seeing them carried into effect, as far as is practicable under the circumstances in which this country is placed; that the petitioners are deeply impressed with the present distress of the country, which seriously affects almost every branch of the manufacturing and commercial interests; that while the petitioners approve of the principles of free trade, and are desirous of seeing all unnecessary restrictions upon the commerce of the country removed, as far as prac-
270
271
Alderman Wood
supported the prayer of the petition, and said, that it was impossible for our manufactures to compete with the commodities of other countries while food was at more than double their price. It was high time for parlialiament to turn its attention to the subject, and to take notice of the great falling-off in the supplies of grain. The difference in the quantities brought into the market in the corresponding quarters of 1825 and 1826 was as follows:—In wheat there was a difference of 57,677 quarters, being that much less in the last quarter than in the same quarter of 1825. In barley there were 79,937 quarters less; oats 20,000 quarters less; pollard, 36,000. It was quite plain that corn would by this time have reached a famine price, had it not been for the late alterations in the currency.
Mr. Whitmore
said, he had been misunderstood as to his intention of bringing on the question of the Corn laws. On fixing another motion of his, which stood for the 23rd of May, he had, by mistake, been represented as having put off his motion of to-morrow on the Corn laws. He wished it to be clearly understood, that it was his fixed determination to bring on the subject to-morrow.
Alderman Thompson
concurred with the enlightened citizens of London, that it would be vain to attempt to establish principles of free trade, unless they were extended, in an equal degree, to the trade in grain. Some thought, that they ought to have begun with the corn-trade; but, for his part, he was anxious first to divest the agriculturist of the argument which existed in favour of monopoly, in the restrictions and prohibitions on foreign manufactures. Those prohibitions and restrictions were now almost wholly done away, and all articles were admitted, on payment of reasonable duties. The same principle ought to be applied to imports of grain. They were told, when the bill was passed in 1817, that the effect of the bill would be, to produce plenty at cheap rates and fixed prices. At present, trade was every where stagnant, or nearly so, and the general poverty and distress were aggravated by the danger of scarcity, and the high price of food. Nothing could be more fluctuating in price and quantity than corn had been ever since.
272
Ordered to lie on the table.
FOREIGN SHIPPING—PETITION FROM
Mr. Heathcote
presented a petition from the Ship-owners of Sunderland, setting forth,
"That the Shipping trade of this kingdom, on which the petitioners are dependent for employment and support, has of late been greatly depressed, and the circumstances of the petitioners thereby considerably impoverished; that the cause to which the same is mainly to be attributed is, the operation of the 'Reciprocity of Duties Act,' which, by allowing the importation of articles of foreign merchandize in ships belonging to any country on equal terms with British vessels, gives to foreigners a decided advantage over the subjects of this country, inasmuch as that the former being enabled to build and navigate their ships at a considerably less cost than the petitioners, are consequently in a situation to accept freights at a much lower rate than the petitioners; that a considerable proportion of their shipping is now laid up, the petitioners finding they can only be navigated to a loss, the effects of which will not only be severely felt by themselves, but will also be the cause of much poverty and distress to the working classes dependent on them for employment; that the petitioners beg to refer to the Custom-house returns of British and foreign tonnage employed during the last year, which, when compared with that of the year preceding, they have no doubt will show a very great increase in foreign shipping over British; that the petitioners humbly conceive themselves to be entitled to the protection of the legislature equally with other branches of trade and of agriculture, and hope the House will be pleased to pass a law for levying such a protecting duty on foreign shipping as will enable the petitioners to compete with foreigners in the freight market, without which the petitioners find they must shortly be reduced to a state of comparative poverty; the petitioners, therefore, humbly pray, That the House will take their case into their serious consideration, and afford them such relief as in their wisdom may seem meet and proper."
Sir M. W. Ridley
supported the petition, and wished that the president and vice-president of the Board of Trade were in their places, as this was a subject deserving the gravest consideration of govern-
273
Mr. Heathcote
said, that the facts proved by the returns on the table ought to be sufficient at once to induce ministers to take up the consideration of this very important subject. The following would show, in one view, the slow progress which British shipping had made within this year:—
BRITISH.
Ships.
Tonnage.
Men.
1824
11,733
1,797,320
108,700
1825
13,517
2,144,680
123,120
Increase.
—
1,784
347,360
14,420
FOREIGN.
1824
3,389
469,151
28,421
1825
6,967
958,050
52,630
EXPORTS—BRITISH SHIPS.
Decrease.
1824.
1825.
Sweden
9,698
8,741
The Baltic
401
318
Norway
8,559
8,438
Denmark
44,418
42,944
Increase.
1824.
1825.
Prussia
49,200
87,858
Germany
70,933
80,020
Belgium
44,354
53,003
United States
43,082
43,139
Mr. Sykes
expressed his concurrence in the sentiments of the hon. member who had preceded him.
Mr. Baring
observed upon the absence of ministers from the House at that period of the evening; then near six o'clock. Here were petitions before the House involving questions of the highest interest to the country, and there was not one minister of the Crown in his place to give any opinion or information respecting them. The House of Commons, he must say, was not accustomed to be treated
274
Mr. Robertson
thought that the hon. gentlemen opposite, who had urged ministers to these experiments, saw now sufficient reason for retracing their steps. While the taxes of the country were so heavy, it was impossible we could compete with the foreigner.
Mr. Hume
was also sorry that ministers were not present, when a subject of so much importance was before the House. If they had been in their seats, he would have recalled to their memory, the speech delivered by the late Mr. Ricardo, when the Reciprocity Duties bill was under debate. He had stated distinctly, on that occasion, that if this country acted upon the system of reciprocity, without repealing the heavy duties by which the shipping interest were pressed down, the consequence would be, beyond all doubt, that we should lose that branch of our trade; and he had voted for the bill only on the understanding, that in the ensuing session all those duties would be removed. He entirely concurred in Mr. Ricardo's opinion. If the taxes on our navigation were repealed, he believed that, under the freest competition, British shipping would keep their ground against all rivals, from every part of the world; but for that purpose it was essential that the whole of the taxes should be abolished on hemp, timber, iron, tallow, and all other commodities consumed by the shipping interest.
275
Mr. Irving
said, it was a fact much to be deplored, but undoubtedly true, that the employment of British shipping was now confined to the colonial trade; and he regretted to observe, that there was a set of persons seeking, night after night, to destroy that interest. Almost the whole of the navigation of the countries, that had adopted the reciprocity system, was carried on by foreigners.
Ordered to lie on the table.
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM—PETITION RESPECTING.
Mr. Hume
rose to present a petition signed by about three hundred individuals, setting forth "That the petitioners, taking into consideration the high dishonour reflected on the Christian religion, and the absolute surrender of the great principle of the Protestant Reformation, which is the right of private judgment, in the late prosecutions for blasphemy, most humbly beseech the House to pass an act for the immediate and unconditional liberation of all persons now under confinement for blasphemy, impiety, or heretical pravity of any kind or degree whatever; and that it might be made the law of England that from henceforth no person or persons shall ever be subject to annoyance or prosecution for the holding, maintaining, or propagating, by printing or preaching, any religious principles whatever, provided they conduct themselves as virtuous members of the community, and loyal subjects of our sovereign lord the King." He concurred in the opinion of the petitioners, that no man ought to be imprisoned for holding a religious opinion which happened to be different from his neighbours; and it was certainly a reflection on the present enlightened age, that people should be cast into prison for three, four, and five years, for no other crime than that of thinking as they pleased upon speculative subjects. He was glad to find that the present Secretary of State for the home department did not, like some of his predecessors, encourage these prosecutions; still it was singular, that when, on a late occasion, he had ordered the liberation of Mr. Carlile, he had not also set at liberty a number of other persons who were incarcerated for offences of the same nature. If these matters were left to their own operation, without the notoriety of state trials, they would soon become things of utter indifference.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that there was
276
Mr. Serjeant Onslow
denied that these prosecutions interfered with the right of private judgment, unless, indeed, that could be called such which struck at the root of all morality and religion. It was an abuse of terms to designate blasphemy and impiety as connected with the just right of free opinion in a well-regulated state.
Ordered to lie on the table.
EXCLUSION FROM COURT OF CHANCERY—PETITION OF G. FARQUHARSON.
Mr. Abercromby
rose to present a petition from Mr. George Farquharson, of the Strand, which stated, that the petitioner had been employed for upwards of twenty years by the suitors and solicitors of the court of Chancery, in taking notes of the proceedings of that court, and that he was now in the employment of a morning newspaper. That on Friday, the 14th instant, the day on which the New Court of Chancery in Westminster-hall was opened for business, he, the petitioner, following his customary avocations, applied for admission to that court, but was told, to his surprise, by the officers of the court, that he could not be admitted, and that the reporters were in future to be excluded; and the petitioner, after stating the loss which such a measure would be to the public, and the hardship of his being deprived of his employment, if such exclusion were persisted in, concluded by submitting his case to the House, in order that the liberty which he had enjoyed for so long a period might still be continued. In presenting this petition, the learned member said, he thought there must have been some misconception between the petitioner and the persons by whom he had been excluded. If otherwise, he certainly thought it extremely hard, that the court of Chancery should be exclusive in adopting a measure which had not been acted upon by the other courts, where reporters were not denied the right of being admitted. It was not necessary at present to state the benefits which resulted to the public from the practice of giving publicity to judicial proceed-
277
The Solicitor General
said, that if any person connected with the public press had been excluded from the court of Chancery, he was confident that such exclusion did not originate with, and was not sanctioned by, the head of that court. There was no accommodation, however, in the new court for reporters to sit.
Mr. Scarlett
said, that a more contemptible court of justice than the New Court of Chancery there was not in the kingdom. There was no adequate accommodation for the gentlemen of the bar, and in every point it was a most inconvenient court. There were no means of accommodation for the public, not to speak of reporters. With respect to the court of King's-bench, all he could say about it was, that every defect of the old court seemed to have been scrupulously copied, for the purpose of transferring it to the new court; and, as to the court of Exchequer, although from its size it was certainly the most commodious of the new courts, its internal arrangements were by no means improved. Indeed, as he had just remarked with respect to the King's-bench, every defect of the old court was scrupulously continued. The bench was awkwardly situated, and the seats for counsel being on one side only, occasioned much inconvenience. Then, as to the gallery behind the bench, which had been copied from the old court, he never yet could see the use of it. The only improvement which had taken place in this court was, that in point of space it had been considerably enlarged. He would not allude to the useless passages which surrounded the courts, or the senseless ornaments by which the walls were decorated; but he would venture to say, that a greater waste of money had seldom taken place than in the making of these new courts. He was sorry to say that the suggestion he had made last year, to appoint a committee to manage the improvements, had not been carried into practice. The passages that ran parallel from Westminster-hall were of no use whatever; and he wondered at the wild-
278
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that after the strong language used by the hon. and learned gentleman who just sat down, he felt called upon to say a few words, as well for the satisfaction of the House, as for the sake of rescuing the reputation of the professional gentleman by whom the new courts were built, from the unmerited censure with which he had been assailed. Five or six years ago, when the building of those courts was contemplated, it was understood to be indispensably necessary that they should all open into Westminster-hall. The site of them being therefore particularly prescribed, and the space within which they were to be erected exceedingly limited, the wonder was, how so much could be accomplished within so circumscribed an area: hence the professional character of the architect was placed under the influence of circumstances of peculiar difficulty. In executing a work of that nature it was not to be expected that he could succeed in giving universal satisfaction. It was impossible for Mr. Soane to consult all those gentlemen in the legal profession who had formed themselves into a sort of committee to arrange the building; but he had frequent communications with the judges. He had consulted them over and over again, and all their suggestions he had carried into execution; and all the alterations they recommended he effected. With respect to the hon. and learned gentleman opposite, he had the honour to attend him over the works; he had directed Mr. Soane to call upon him and explain all the plans, and had flattered himself that the learned gentleman was quite satisfied that every alteration suggested had been carried into execution, that was not incompatible with the wishes and opinions of the judges of the courts. With respect to the passages alluded to, he thought, that so far from their being objectionable, they were indispensable as a means of communication. It was, therefore, very hard to throw such blame on the architect. Mr. Soane's hands were tied up; so inadequate to the purpose
279
Mr. Scarlett
disclaimed any idea of casting aspersions on the character of Mr. Soane.
Sir M. W. Ridley
expressed his disapprobation of the mode in which public works were carried on. When a public building was about to be erected, plans and models ought to be submitted from the various artists generally. The thing should be thrown open to the public; for, according to the existing state of things, it was impossible for any architect to be employed, unless he was connected in some manner with the Board of Works, as it was called. There should be a fair competition thrown open to the talents of the various artists. Let them only look round the town, and see the abilities which the various public buildings, churches, &c, had called forth. For example, there was the new church at Chelsea. Had it not been for that opportunity, the talents of the distinguished artist who erected that beautiful church might have passed unnoticed. He did not mean, in the slightest degree, to dispute the talents of Mr. Soane, or to detract in the least from the acknowledged merits of that individual; but he thought it would be a considerable improvement if public works, like those of a private nature, were open to a fair competition.
Mr. R. Colborne
said, that with respect to plans and models, none but young artists could present them, for the more experienced and distinguished were occupied so constantly, that they could not have leisure for such a course.
Mr. Holme Sumner
considered the new courts to be very inconvenient. They might with more propriety have been erected on the other side of the Abbey; but he did not consider Mr. Soane at all to blame, as he had acted under the direction of others. It was certain that the courts were inadequate, and that they were by no means suited to the public convenience. He considered, however, that they might be rendered commodious, and he regretted that the report of the committee, who had
280
Mr. Abercromby
was rejoiced to find that his impression that no order had been given for excluding reporters from the court of Chancery was correct. The presenting of Mr. Farquharson's petition would, in all probability, have the effect of preventing the authority of a judge from being abused by those who said, they acted under his directions.
Ordered to lie on the table.
USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to move the order of the day, that the House do resolve itself into a committee of ways and means.
Mr. Serjeant Onslow
observed, that his motion for the second reading of the Usury Laws' Repeal bill was entitled to precedence; however, he was willing to concede priority on the understanding that his motion should come on immediately after the committee of ways and means.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he considered the best course to pursue would be to abstain from the second reading of the bill this session. Owing to the present state of the country, and the inquiries which were going on in the committee on the Scotch and Irish currency, he thought that some future occasion would be much better than the present for discussing the subject. He would not pledge himself to support the bill, but should be guided in the course he should pursue by the evidence which might be given in the committee, and by the information which he should endeavour to acquire on the subject before next session.
Mr. Philips
objected to this delay. He considered that a question of such importance ought not to be put off session after session.
Mr. Serjeant Onslow
said, he did not complain so much of the personal inconvenience to which the frequent postponement of this measure had exposed him, as that it precluded him from having the
281
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that his learned friend was entitled to the highest praise for his perseverance. It was not on account of the lateness of the session, that his right hon. friend wished for the postponement of the question; but because there were at present under the consideration of parliament, so many important subjects, as to render the period extremely inconvenient. There was an inquiry on foot as to promissory notes, which was closely connected with the subject; and it would be obviously inconvenient to make any alteration in the law relating to interest, at a moment when the whole question of the currency of England, Ireland, and Scotland, was under consideration. As the learned serjeant had been patient for ten years, perhaps he would consent to defer the subject a little longer. In the recess, the attention of the government would be directed to it, and they would, of course have no objection to relieve the learned serjeant from the labour of the question, if, upon due consideration, it appeared a subject which they would be justified in bringing forward.
Mr. Serjeant Onslow
said, that after what had fallen from his right hon. friend, it would be doing great injustice to the question to persevere in his motion. He should therefore beg leave to withdraw the bill.
EXCHEQUER BILLS.
The House having resolved itself into a committee of ways and means,
282
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he rose to propose certain resolutions respecting the funding of Exchequer-bills, a measure which had been adopted by his majesty's ministers for the purpose of relieving the Bank from a portion of the advances which had been made to government, and of diminishing the amount of Exchequer-bills already in the market. In pursuance of that plan, government had, in the course of last week, sent a proposal to the Bank, stating the nature of the measure, and explaining that it was intended to fund Exchequer bills, by creating a new stock, which should yield four per cent., fixing the amount of stock at 107
l.
l.
l.
s.
l.
l.,
l.,
l.,
l.
l.,
l.,
l.
l.
283
Mr. Irving
asked, whether any arrangement had been made for including in the payments to be made to the Bank the sums they had disbursed in the purchase of Exchequer bills in the early part of the year?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that undoubtedly the Bank would be paid off at the most convenient time, and the present arrangement would enable the government to do so; but the payments would be made at such times and under such circumstances as the state of the currency and the demands of the Bank would render it most desirable to the government and useful to the country.
Mr. Maberly
begged to ask, how the; right hon. gentleman proposed to pay off the new debt, and what was the amount of the new sinking fund which he proposed to create?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that, by an act of parliament, the sinking fund was to go on increasing at compound interest until it amounted to one per cent, on the whole amount of the debt. The whole debt, funded and unfunded, was already provided for by the regular sinking fund; so that the sinking fund to be raised was only upon the sum which formed the difference between the original amount of Exchequer bills as it stood under the name of unfunded debt, and the new stock now about to be created, forming a sum of about 560,000
l.
Sir. J. Wrottesley
asked, if there was any precise time in which the right hon. gentleman proposed to himself the payment of the Exchequer bills?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that it was undoubtedly his object to have the means of paying them off as soon as possible; but, as he had already stated he was not under an obligation to pay them off at any particular time, but was at liberty to watch the market, so as to take advantage of such opportunities as occurred most beneficial to the public interests; as it was impossible, therefore, to mention any precise time—all he could say was, that it would be done as soon as convenient, although he thought it would be very imprudent to take any sudden measures which would affect the circulation.
Sir J. Wrottesley
asked, what was to become of the surplus which would thus remain in the hands of government, provided it were not found necessary to make
284
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that the effect of that would be, to render a smaller issue of Exchequer-bills by the government necessary, than might otherwise be required.
Sir F. Ommaney
wished to know, whether a preference in the subscription for the new stock was not given to those who offered money rather than to those who went with Exchequer-bills?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was not aware that he had said any thing about a preference being given to any party. The conditions on which the new stock was to be issued were known to the public on Wednesday last. But he had no objection to lay before the House an account of the nature of the subscriptions for the stock, distinguishing the amount in Exchequer-bills from that in cash.
The resolutions were then agreed to.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Criminal Justice bill,
Mr. Secretary Peel
observed, that this bill, which purported to have no less an object than the improvement of the Criminal Justice of England, seemed to him to be of such great importance, that he conceived the best method he could adopt in its consideration would be, to have it read clause by clause to the House. In that way he could, he thought, introduce most satisfactorily the very few amendments and alterations which it was necessary to propose. The first, and by far the most important, related to the powers of magistrates in the taking of bail—powers which had remained without any alteration since the time of Edward 1st. His object was, in this bill, to procure such a legislative provision, as would make it distinctly understood—what the powers of magistrates actually were with regard to bail, upon which there had been, for a long period, very considerable obscurity; and next, to extend the class of offences for which bail could be received, by giving some precise and definite description of the kind of offenders from whom bail could be taken, pointing out clearly who might be admitted to bail, and who must be committed to safe custody. He proposed, that where any person should be taken on a charge of felony, or suspicion of felony, before any justice of the peace, and the charge should be supported by positive evidence of the fact, or by
285
286
Mr. Scarlett
said, that, in point of fact, magistrates already exercised the power about to be granted them by this act.
Mr. Denman
thought that great difficulties would arise from placing too precise and exact limits to the conduct of magistrates. Too technical a laying down of their duties would have the effect of embarrassing them. He considered that there was a strong objection to the use of the word "credible," which was generally considered as synonymous with "competent;" and that, unless a person was convicted of some disqualifying crime, he must be considered competent. He should like the clause better, if magistrates were authorized, when the evidence appeared insufficient, to discharge the prisoner rather than remand him. He saw great reason for pausing before the clause proposed was agreed to. At all events, he hoped that nothing which passed that night would be considered as final, but that every clause would be printed and placed in the hands of members.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that the clause already proposed was the most material one. The others were not of such consequence at present. If the evidence against the prisoner was positive, the magistrate was bound to commit; and therefore it was that he added the word "credible" to "positive." "Credible" was not to be taken in its technical sense. It meant to guard against the evidence of persons of suspected or doubtful character, as, for instance, common prostitutes.
287
The Attorney-general
agreed with his right hon. friend, that the word "credible" was to be taken in its popular acceptation. Indeed, it was used as contra-distinguished from "incompetent." It meant persons who were credible from their character and conduct.
Mr. Horace Twiss
said, that great inconvenience arose from not having the deposition of witnesses returned before the trial. In the absence of these documents, it was impossible to determine whether the evidence of the witnesses, as given before the magistrates, agreed with that given on the trial of the prisoner. He should therefore suggest, that in no case the trial should be proceeded on, unless the written examinations taken before the magistrates were in Court.
Mr. Secretary Peel
was strongly of opinion that, if the suggestion of the hon. and learned gentleman were adopted, it might tend, in many instances, to defeat the ends of justice. Measures, for instance, might be taken by the friends of a prisoner to intercept the messenger who was conveying the depositions to the assizes, and thus prevent the trial from coming on, Besides, it would have the effect of taking the discretion of postponing the trial quite out of the hands of the judge.
Mr. Horace Twiss
replied, that, unless the judge had seen the depositions, he could know nothing of the merits of the particular case, and therefore could use no discretion.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that perhaps it was not necessary that the judge should be in possession of the merits. He thought it would be wrong to legislate on the subject.
The Attorney General
observed, that if the suggestion proposed by his learned friend was adopted, a prisoner, through the neglect of the magistrates' clerk, might have his trial put off to the ensuing assizes. He admitted that it would be desirable to have the depositions in court during the trial; but if it was necessary to have them returned before the assizes, it might so happen that no officer would be in attendance to receive them.
288
The clause was agreed to.
Mr. Secretary Peel,
on the clause being moved, that all informations and examinations on which any person should be imprisoned or admitted to bail, should be committed to writing, and returned into court at its opening, said that, at present, magistrates, upon charges of misdemeanour, were apt not to reduce the examinations to writing; but although it might give some little more trouble, he conceived it right that this should be done in all cases.
Mr. Hume
said, that the right hon. gentleman, whilst he was improving the criminal law, would be conferring a great benefit if he were to do away with the distinction as to the benefit of clergy altogether. Indeed, the meaning of this term was far from being generally understood.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that he, for the most part, concurred in the opinion of the hon. gentleman; but the simple repeal of all these distinctions now would be premature. He hoped at no distant period, so early, indeed, as in the next session, to bring forward bills for the consolidation of the whole of the criminal statutes [hear, hear!]. These he would propose to take in the following order:—first, the laws relating to the injury of persons: second, those relating to coining and forgery. When these had undergone revision and alteration, most of the criminal law would have been revised and condensed. As soon as they had made that progress, it would be right, perhaps, to make one uniform provision upon the subject: but at present, those offences that were clergyable, and those that were not, were so interwoven in the statutes, that it was inconvenient to separate them, or to come to any specific provision upon the subject. Besides, the simple repeal now, by abolishing the words "without benefit of clergy," would have the effect of making some offences capital that were not so by law.
The clause was agreed to.
Mr. Peel
next proposed the clause enacting, that "if any person indicted for
289
Lord J. Russell
was desirous that every person arraigned should have the benefit of a trial, whatever plea he might put forward, or under whatever circumstances a charge was preferred against him.
Mr. Scarlett
observed, that the judges had uniformly evinced the greatest unwillingness to admit a party to plead guilty. Even where a prisoner was obstinate in refusing to plead at all, the judge had a plea of "not guilty" entered for him, and the trial gone through.
Mr. Peel
said, he only proposed to enact what he already found in several statutes. The clause only proposed, in a compressed manner, to enact that which was already in force.
The clause was agreed to.
Mr. Scarlett
objected to the clause which subjected "accessaries before the fact" to the same punishment as principals, in all cases of felony. There were some cases in which an exception was made to the general provision. As a general rule, he admitted that accessaries were liable to the same punishment; but before they altered the law as relating to excepted cases, he thought the committee ought to have before them the statutes, by which, for certain offences, the accessary was visited with a less punishment, the principal with a greater. The effect of the present clause might be, to increase the number of capital punishments, in some cases where the principal was indictable for a capital felony, and the accessary only made liable to one that was not capital.
Mr. Peel
replied, that he had adhered to the principle on which the law proceeded in the punishment provided for offences. It was, that the accessary should be liable to the same punishment as the principal. Indeed, in some instances, the accessary, in his opinion, was more criminal; as in the case of persons instigating boys to steal in dwelling-houses, to commit robbery, or some other offence, with the expectation that, on account of their youth, they might escape the capital punishment due to the crime. There, in his opinion, the
290
Mr. Scarlett
was desirous of having the cases in which the accessary ought not to be punished equally with the principal brought distinctly under the consideration of the House. He therefore wished the right hon. gentleman to postpone the consideration of this clause until an opportunity should be given to draw up an enumeration of the cases in which the accessary before the fact and the principal ought to share the same punishment.
Mr. Peel
was anxious to have the clause passed now, in order that the printing of the bill might not be postponed. After it was printed it would be re-committed, and the learned gentleman would then have the opportunity of creating the discussion which he desired.
Mr. Denman
concurred in the opinion, of his learned friend, that before any alteration was adopted, the particular statutes in which these distinctions between the principal and accessary were made, should be laid before the committee, and the grounds of them examined.
Mr. Sykes
expressed a wish, that in all cases a prisoner should be tried either in the county where the offence was committed, or in that in which he was apprehended.
Mr. Peel
thought, that it would be much better to have the prisoner always tried in the county where the offence was committed, as it would enable both prosecutors and prisoners to conduct their
291
Mr. Denman
asked, whether it would not be expedient, in order to give effect to this clause, to empower the magistrates to commit to the gaol of either county?
Mr. Scarlett
observed, that if there were any doubt as to the boundary of a county, there would be also some doubt as to the distance of five-hundred yards from that boundary. It appeared necessary to make the law more explicit upon this point.
Mr. Peel
observed, that this clause only re-enacted the present law. The clause contained the words "any felony may be inquired of in either county." These words, he conceived, met the case mentioned by the learned member for Nottingham. If they did not, he should be happy to insert a clause in the bill, which would give the magistrates the power which the learned member thought they ought to have.
The clause was agreed to, and the House resumed.
LARCENY LAWS BILL.
On the order of the day for the further consideration of this bill,
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he had to propose several important alterations. He therefore wished the House merely to go into the committee pro forma, that the bill might be reprinted, and stand over for consideration. He had originally proposed to consolidate, and he trusted he had succeeded in consolidating, the whole of the statute law of England relating to all offences against property, connected with theft; but he had found, in attempting to legislate with respect to theft, that all that part which related to the mischievous destruction of property was so intimately connected with theft, that it was difficult to draw a distinction. It was probable, however, that, should the committee agree to his alterations, he might think it expedient not to pass the bill through the House this session, but suffer it to lay over for consideration, in its amended state, till the next session.
Mr. Scarlett
approved of the course pursued by the right hon. gentleman.
292
The House having resolved itself into a committee,
Mr. Peel
said, he would shortly state to the House two or three of the alterations which he desired to make. In the first place, as it was expedient to limit, as far as possible, the list of offences which were subject to the punishment of death, he intended to repeal that law which made the stealing in a church (no matter under what circumstances, or to what amount) a capital crime. As the statute stood, a man who stole his neighbour's prayer-book, as they sat in the same pew at chapel together, would be liable to suffer death for it; the act being in itself no more than a simple larceny. He saw no reason why any other law should be applicable to a place of worship than to the common case of a dwelling-house. In either case the breaking and entering would be capital, but not the simple act of stealing. In the same way, the statute which made it death to steal from a booth or tent at a fair, was one which he thought deserved to be revised. People who kept such open booths ought to guard their property sufficiently themselves, and not look for laws of unreasonable severity to protect it. The stealing to the amount of 40
s.
s.
l.
s.
293
l.
The bill went through the committee, and was reported.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 18 1826.
CORN LAWS.
Lord Callhorpe
rose to present a petition from the merchants, manufacturers, and other inhabitants of Birmingham, praying for an amendment of the Corn Laws. In proposing to lay before their lordships a petition on this important subject from so numerous and respectable a body, he could not forbear from again expressing his surprise and concern that his majesty's ministers should persist in their resolution to take no steps in this question during the present session. With regard to the Corn laws, some persons seemed to look upon them as part of the constitution; as existing by a sort of irresistible necessity; and as something far too sacred to be touched. He, however, was of a different opinion, and conceived it to be the duty of parliament to take them as speedily as possible into its most serious consideration. He regretted much the disposition to procrastination which ministers had manifested on this subject, and he must say, that it was not humane in them to leave the question of the Corn laws in the state in which it now stood; as the consequence of so leaving it was, that it arrayed two great classes of his majesty's subjects in hostility against
294
The Earl of Liverpool
was sure their
295
296
297
Lord Calthorpe
said, he had been induced to appeal to the noble lord on the danger which he thought must result from leaving the corn question in its present state; and on that point his opinion remained unaltered. The noble lord had told him that he might exercise his discretion in bringing the subject forward, but he well knew that no peer could expect a successful result to any attempt of that kind, unless he made it under the auspices of the cabinet.
Lord King
observed, that great distress was experienced by the manufacturers, and that the approach of that distress must have been foreseen for some time. Yet, if any one asked what had been done, he would find that not the slightest step had been taken towards their relief. Last year a very limited bill, for a limited object, and a limited time, had been brought in. It would have been well if the noble earl had brought forward this limited bill again, and had given to its operation a more extended period; as that would induce the growers of corn in Canada to take measures to ensure a future supply. But, then, the noble earl ought to have done that at an earlier period of the session, before the arrival of a noble lord (Malmesbury) from the country. It had once been said, that there was a power behind the throne greater than the throne itself. In the same manner it might be said, that there was now a power in that House greater than the minister—"Multa gemens ignominiam plagasque superbi victoris—" of the conquering hero who won the field of the Canada corn bill. So great had been the exultation of the landlords in consequence of this victory, that he understood they were about to institute a club which would quite out-do the Pitt club. It would be called the Malmesbury club; and it was intended to commemorate the great event by anniversary dinners far more splendid than those of the rival association.
The Earl of Malmesbury
admitted, that the present was not a proper time, for
298
Ordered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, April 18 1826.
CONTEMPT OF COURT OF CHANCERY.—
Mr. Hume
rose to present a petition from an individual named William Richardson, labourer, confined in the Castle of York, under the order of the lord chancellor, for a Contempt of Court. The case was, in his opinion, one of great hardship. It appeared from the statements contained in the petition, that the petitioner was a labourer in the county of York. In the year 1824, he had the misfortune to have a property of 600
l
l
l
299
Mr. Lockhart
said, he was shocked, as he was convinced every other hon. gentleman must have been, by the language applied to the lord chancellor by the hon. member for Aberdeen. The delays of the court of Chancery were not attributable to the noble and learned lord who presided over that court, but to the system.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he did not see the candour or justice of the course adopted by the hon. member for Aberdeen. It would have been only fair in the hon. gentleman to have given notice that he was about to present the petition when coming down to the House with such an accusation in his pocket. The hon. member was in the habit of using such unmeasured language, that it might seem almost useless to protest against it; yet he could not but protest against his present proceeding. To say the least of it, it was unfair to bring forward such a statement without notice of his intention, when it was possible that some satisfactory explanation of the circumstances might have been given. He did not pretend to be acquainted with the circumstances of
300
The Solicitor-General
said, that a judge, of any rank, was a person at least entitled to be treated with decency, if not with respect. He had not heard the expressions of the hon. gentleman, but it had been reported to him that the hon. gentleman, in the exercise of that privilege which, abstractedly, was certainly the right of every member, had said that the lord chancellor was a curse to the country. Now, he himself was a friend to the privileges of parliament; but, great as he wished its liberty to be—latitudinarian as he would wish its privilege to be—he must be allowed to say, that a greater curse than any lord chancellor could be to any country, would be that privilege, if, on an exparte statement, in the absence of any defence, in the impossibility of the party making his own defence, men of the highest station were to be denounced and hunted down in consequence of fulfilling a public trust. The case might be a strong one. Let the hon. gentleman in pursuing his motion, make that out: let him prove that this was a case which, on the face of it, carried marks of oppression and injustice, and then he might alter his opinion of the language which had been applied to the judge and the court of Chancery; though no circumstances could justify the use of such language even in that very strong case. To talk of a man as being a curse to his country, was to denounce him as being devoid of principle, of feeling, and of honour. But, indeed, to attack a man with such expressions behind his back, when none of his friends were present, or instructed either in the accusation or the defence which they might make when known, would, if drawn into practice, make that House the most grievous curse to the country.
Mr. Grenfell
said, he was not in the House when the words which caused this
301
302
Mr. Holme Sumner
said, that the hon. member who spoke last had spoken in modified terms of the present system of the court of Chancery. Not so, however, the hon. member who had preceded him, and who had, he would assert, made the most indecent, the most uncalled-for, and the most outrageous, attack upon the learned lord who presided in that court, which he had ever heard made in that House. This being his opinion, he thought the House would be deficient in its duty to its own dignity, if it did not call for some explanation from the hon. member, with the view of softening down the rigour of the phrase which he had ventured to use on the present occasion; and if, in failure of such an explanation, it did not by a specific resolution, express its opinion that such an expression was a violent and indecent abuse of the privileges of parliament. He begged further to state, that if the hon. member did not qualify his epithet, he, himself, would be the person who would move such a resolution, for the purpose of at least acquitting himself individually of the duty which was due to the learned person at the head of the court of Chancery, who ought to be protected from such a strain of abuse. The hon. and learned Solicitor-general had, indeed, said, with reference to the system of the court of Chancery, that the complexity of its practice was the fruit of the present complicated condition of the business of society. Now, he did not altogether concur in this opinion; for, however complicated were the concerns of society at large, he did concur with those who thought, that the delays which prevailed in some parts of the administration of justice were not only unjustifiable, but often ruinous to the aggrieved parties. The fault did not, however, rest with the lord chancellor: it rested as much with himself, and every other member of the House, who had neglected to introduce some remedial improvement in the system of the court, which had, for time out of mind, been defective. Indeed, so far from arraigning the lord chancellor in the way
303
Mr. Hume
said, it appeared that the language he had used with respect to the system of the court of Chancery, was considered as indecorous and improper. Now, on the contrary, he thought it perfectly applicable; and he begged that the hon. member, or the House, would, if they thought otherwise, order his words to be taken down; for he was ready to abide by them. Whatever might be the result of such a course, there were very few, he believed, out of that House, who would hesitate to say, that the court of Chancery deserved the appellation which he had directed against its system, and ought to be designated as a curse to the country; in point of fact, that it had been so for a very long time. How had he applied the epithet? The learned Solicitor-general was ignorant of the facts which the petition set forth, or he would not have made use of the observations which he had uttered, and supposed, contrary to what had occurred, that he had failed to make out a case of grievance. The facts which he had stated were these: The petitioner, a labourer, had unfortunately become possessed of a farm worth 600
l
304
Mr. Sumner
said, he was certainly dissatisfied with the hon. gentleman's explanation; but he knew that, not having called for the hon. member's words to be taken down at the moment they were used, he had lost the opportunity of taking the matter up as a point of strict privilege. If, however, the hon. member still insisted, that not only was the system of the court of Chancery a curse to the country, but that the lord chancellor himself was equally so, then all he had to say was, that if the hon. member now repeated his expressions, he would certainly call to have his words taken down, and afterwards for the opinion of the House upon them.
305
Mr. Ellice
said, that if the hon. member was desirous of having it repeated, that the administration of justice in the court of Chancery as at present constituted, and the manner of its performance by the lord chancellor, who administered its affairs according to this system, had become a curse to the country, he, for one, would himself indulge him with the repetition of that animadversion. It did not become members of that House, when describing the abominable and most vexatious proceedings of such a system, to soften down and qualify the epithets which it loudly called for [hear].
Mr. Sumner
said, that lest the petition should contain expressions similar to those which had been used by the hon. member who had presented it, he would request to have it read by the clerk: for, should it be found to contain unwarrantable phrases of that kind, he hoped the House, for the sake of its own character, would not suffer such libellous aspersions to go forth from its table.
l
l
306
l
l.
307
l
l
308
The Solicitor-General
said, he did not rise to oppose the reception of this petition, but merely to point out, that nothing had been done in this case, according to the petitioner's own statement, but what was done every day by an hon. member of that House, who had to foreclose a mortgage and proceed with an ejectment cause; and yet this process which every gentleman's attorney had daily to resort to in cases of this kind, was to be made the frame-work of a bitter attack upon the lord chancellor, as if he alone had inflicted an unusual injury upon an individual, in administering a particular process of law. The fact was, it was not the court which had upset this man, but the lessor, who had directed his attorney to proceed to a decree against him. Why, then, did not the hon. member, instead of impugning the lord chancellor, attack the attorney or his client? The reason was, no doubt, not so much his sense of justice, as of gallantry, for he did not like to attack a female, and therefore he had refrained from casting any reflection upon Phoebe Leeson. [Repeated laughter, the learned gentleman having mistaken the
309
Mr. Baring
said, he was obliged to his hon. friend for having brought forward this petitioner's case, and drawn the attention of the House to the enormous abuses which prevailed in the system of the court of Chancery. At the same time, he regretted the introduction of any harsh
310
l
l
311
l
l
l
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that he had to confess the same ignorance as the hon. gentleman who had last spoken, of mere points of law; but really he must say that, for the purpose of this petition, the discussion Which had taken place was quite irregular and uncalled-for. The preamble of grievances in the petition set forth, that the evil lay in the court of Chancery, but one half of the subsequent matter applied equally to process issuing from any of the courts of common law. The man had refused obedience to a process which had been duly taken out against him, but of the effect of which he pretended ignorance, by remarking, that the piece of parchment referred to the affairs of one John Doe and Richard Roe, and mentioned staves and knives, and such nonsense. This notification he admitted he had treated with great contempt; and for so doing he had entailed upon himself the further proceeding of which he had complained. Now, all this would have happened in any other court as well as the court of Chancery. What, then, became of the general argument? Why, nothing but this, that legal proceedings inflicted pecuniary penalties, and that the rich man must always, in such litigations, have an advantage over the poor man; and this must, from the nature of things, continue, not only in this but in every other country which had laws to administer: and a grievance it was so far for the poor man; one, too, carrying with it the painful conviction, that it was impossible for the wisdom of man to devise any remedy against its operation. The only inference that could be drawn from the speech of the hon. gentleman was, that the court of Chancery, and the judge who presided there,
312
313
314
Mr. John Williams
commenced by disclaiming the slightest feelings of personal disrespect towards the noble and learned lord who presided in the court of Chancery, in whom was blended a great and singular mixture of the courtesy of the nobleman with the dignity of the judge. He was most willing to admit that the noble and learned lord could not be surpassed in those amiable qualities by which he was distinguished; and, to use the words of the noble and learned lord himself, in alluding, on another occasion, to a no less gifted individual, "he wished him well wherever he might be." [hear, and a laugh.] But while speaking on the subject which had chiefly given rise to the present discussion—he meant the unlucky monosyllable which had spread so much alarm on the opposite side of the House, and had even caused the hair of his hon. and learned friend, the solicitor-general, actually to stand on end,—he begged leave for himself to adopt that monosyllable, and to repeat it if requisite. That the court of Chancery was a curse to the country, could not be denied. He did not wish to anticipate the general question respecting the court of Chancery which his hon. friend (sir F. Burdett) meant to introduce, by following up the present discussion; but he could not but observe the inconsistency of conduct adopted by some gentlemen on the present occasion. What said the hon. member for Surrey? Why, that the lord chancellor was not to blame for the delays and abuses which were so notorious in his court. Where, he would ask, was the vote of that hon. gentleman when the abuses of chancery were discussed in parliament in the session of 1823? Where was that hon. member's vote when the question was discussed at a still later period? Was it not notorious that this House had declared, by repeated majorities, that the abuses in chancery should be investigated? And the only difference of opinion which existed on the subject was, with respect to the time which would be requisite to investigate the proceedings of that court, with a view to correct the abuses which might be found to exist. As deliberation might be said to infuse its effects into all the proceedings of chancery, it was natural to expect that a sufficient time would be demanded; and accordingly a convenient pause was granted, in order to give the; commission the fullest opportunity of in-
315
316
Mr. Secretary Peel
observed, that, from what had fallen from the hon. and learned gentleman, it was quite plain that no report, however pleasing, would have given him satisfaction. Indeed, so prejudiced was the hon. and learned gentleman, that he could not see the difference between 190,000 and the 190 suggestions of improvement which the report contained. For himself, he thought it most extraordinary that because improvements had been suggested, the court of Chancery should be run down. The hon. and learned gentleman complained that the report was unwieldy and voluminous. Did he forget that this was his own suggestion? When the commission was appointed, did not the hon. and learned gentleman say, "I hope you will give a full and ample report?" Nothing at that time would satisfy him but a full report. His suggestion was adopted; but when the report was brought forward, what did he say? "It is too voluminous, we can never get through it." Such was the spirit of justice displayed by the hon. and learned gentleman. The hon. and learned gentleman seemed to complain of the delay which the measure occasioned. Long before this time the evidence was placed in the hands of the printer of the House of Commons, in order that those members who might have been interested in the measure, should have an opportunity of inspecting the progress which had been made. Yet this was the return of the hon. and learned gentleman, by whose desire the evidence had been printed. Why was the report voluminous? Because every person who had a complaint to prefer, every country solicitor who might offer an objection against the practice of chancery, was invited to state his grievance and propose his remedy. With respect to the present petition, he thought
317
l
l
Mr. Brougham
considered the report to be, in one sense, too long, inasmuch as it occupied eight or nine hundred folio pages, although in another sense he considered it too short. He did not, however, now mean to enter into any discussion upon the subject, further than to say, that its omissions were numerous and palpable, and that, though the volume was bulky, it was any thing but full of information. Many answers were given, which the parties giving them must have known to be imperfect, and explanations were withheld which rendered the evidence any thing but what it ought to have been. In proof of this he would just state one instance. A question was put to one gentleman, and he was asked if three persons could do the business of the court of Chancery? and his answer to that was "no, certainly, nor three angels." Now, surely, every one must see that such an answer should have been followed up, and then, perhaps, the House would be able to ascertain what it was that neither three men nor three angels could perform. Another gentleman was asked, if it were
318
Mr. R. Smith
defended the conduct of the commissioners, who felt it their duty to present as ample a report to the House, as they could possibly prepare.
Mr. Hume
said, that after patiently listening to all that had been urged on the other side of the House, he saw no reason to think that he had over-stated the evils of the court of Chancery.
Ordered to lie on the table.
STATE OF THE CORN LAWS.
Mr. W. Whitmore
said, that in rising to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, relative to the present state of the Corn Laws, he felt the great weight of responsibility he incurred in agitating a question of such magnitude and importance. He was aware how much he had to contend with prejudice; he was aware how exaggerated were the hopes of one party, and how extravagant were the alarms of another, as to the issue of this question. The present moment was one of considerable distress; and, when he reflected that the question related to the supply of food, he felt that it required to be treated with the utmost delicacy. At present, obstructions were interposed in the way of that supply by law. These obstructions he wished to have removed, but he knew well that inconvenience and danger might accrue from any extensive change in the internal policy of the country, however beneficial it might ultimately prove. He knew, too, that the agricultural interest was one for which the House had always deservedly manifested the strongest predilection. The
319
320
321
322
l.
l
323
d
s
d
s
s
s
d
s
d
s.
d.
s
5
d.
s
d
d
s
s
s
324
325
In 1817 the price was
94
s.
0
d.
1818
83
s.
8
d.
1819
72
s.
9
d.
1820
65
s.
10
d.
1821
54
s.
3
d.
1822
43
s.
3
d.
326
s
s
s
s
s
327
s
s
s
s
s
328
s
s
s
s
s
d
s
d
s
d
s
s
d
329
Quarters.
1800
1,263,771
1801
1,424,241
1802
538,144
1803
312,458
1804
391,068
1805
836,747
1806
207,879
1807
359,835
1808
41,392
1809
387,863
1810
1,439,615
1811
188,563
1812
129,867
1813
341,846
1814
626,745
1815
194,931
1816
210,860
1817
1,030,829
1818
1,586,030
1819
471,607
1820
591,731
12,577,029
s
d
Quarters.
Russia
66,373
Sweden
12,275
Prussia, including Poland
204,667
Germany
87,092
United States
87,376
Canada
23,040
Holland
40,033
Flanders
29,530
France
23,071
Denmark and Norway
18,956
330
331
s
s
s
332
s
s
s
s
s.
d.
Cost of the quarter of wheat at Warsaw
28
0
Conveyance to the boats, and charges for loading and stowing, and securing it by mats
0
6
Freight to Dantzic
5
0
Loss on the passage, by pilfering, and by rain causing it to grow
3
0
Expenses at Dantzic, in turning, drying, screening, and warehousing, and loss of measure
2
0
Profit, or commission, as the case may be, to the merchant at Dantzic
1
6
Freight, primage, insurance, and shipping charges, at Dantzic and in London
8
0
48
0
s
d
s
d
333
s
s
"If a duty in this country of 10
s
s
s
s
334
s
s
s
s
s
335
Mr. Philips,
in rising to second the motion, said, that it was expected by the manufacturing interests that, if there was
336
337
338
s
s
d
s
s
s
s
339
l
l
s
s
340
341
s
s
d
s
s
342
s
Mr. Huskisson
said, that in offering himself to the notice of the House immediately after the hon. proposer and seconder of the present motion, he rose, not for the purpose of following the honourable mover over the wide field of most important matter to which he had culled their attentive consideration. However much he might admire the instructive detail which the honourable mover had offered to the House and to the country, it was not his purpose to enter into it at that moment. His purpose rather was, to persuade the House not to engage in the discussion of it, because he was convinced that the discussion of it could only terminate in inconvenience and embarrassment. The hon. seconder of the motion had stated, that last year he had pledged himself to recommend parliament to undertake the revision of the Corn-laws. He would say a word or two as to the nature of that pledge by and by; but he thought himself warranted at present in saying, that from the opening of the present session, there appeared a coincidence of feeling in the House, amounting almost to a common understanding, that there were certain questions of great magnitude, importance, and difficulty, which it would not be desirable, under the circumstances of the country and the parliament, to enter into during that session [cries of "No," from the opposition benches.] That feeling, he maintained, was entertained by the House, not only in justice to the questions themselves, but also in justice to the public interests which were materially involved in them. It was almost universally admitted, that there were certain questions which it would be much better to leave in a state of abeyance, until they could be more fully discussed in a new parliament [hear]. He certainly did collect from the hon. and learned member for Winchelsea, with respect to this difficult and important question, that he conceived the present session not to be a convenient season for the discussion of it; and his right hon. friend, the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, acting in the same spirit, intimated to the House, on
343
344
345
346
347
348
349
350
351
Lord Milton
said, that the right hon. gentleman had, instead of fairly grappling with the question, merely repeated the assurance which he had given last session. The only reason which the right hon. gentleman gave for this was, because he feared an impending dissolution of parliament. Now, he thought the question of such importance, that if the necessary discussion of it took a much longer period than was reckoned upon, it ought immediately to be taken up; because the inconvenience of the suspense in which the country were now kept was of the utmost importance. How was a man to purchase an estate, or how could he calculate the rent of a farm, while things were in their present undefined state? When he considered the power which the landlords possessed over their tenantry, he must protest, on the part of the latter, against their being left in a situation in which they were at the mercy of the landlords. The persons interested in the question were the landlords: they were a powerful, though not a numerous class; they were the members of parliament, and those who made the members of parliament. He thought that he did not give an improper definition of the landed interest when he thus described it. It was not, in his opinion, very creditable to parliament that it should, under the present circumstances, or, indeed, under any circumstances, be thought incapable of considering the question. Much of the alarm which the landlords professed to feel, as to the proposed repeal of the prohibitory laws, was, he thought, groundless. The substitution of an equitable system of Corn-laws, for the present system, would not be injurious to the landed interest. It would, he admitted, occasion a considerable fall of rents, but at the same time it would create a corresponding advantage, by diminishing the prices of all articles of consumption, so that the landlords would not be such losers by the measure as they
352
s
s
353
354
355
Mr. Holme Sumner
thought the country gentlemen were ill-treated by ministers, who, rather than meet the subject as it ought to be met, were for smothering it, whenever there was danger of its exciting discussion. In this manner it had been smothered last year, and in this manner it was to be smothered now. This perpetual delay was most inconvenient to the landed interest, who could not tell into what engagements they ought to enter with their tenants while this subject remained suspended over their heads. The principle of free trade had been much referred to. That principle might do very well in commercial concerns, but it was a frightful and fearful doctrine to apply to the agricultural interests—the absolute ruin of which it might probably occasion. The same rules did not apply to agriculture and commerce. If any branch of trade was injured, there was a disposition in the country to embark its capital in commercial adventures, and the interests of trade would be retrieved. It was not so in agricultural concerns, which ought, therefore, to be more carefully protected and encouraged. Besides, the agricultural interest had not yet recovered from the distress which it had suffered, and more time ought yet to be allowed it. In what be now laid, he disclaimed the imputation of speaking merely for his own individual interest, and not for the interest of the farmer and the labourer. On the part of the landed gentlemen of England, he disclaimed the imputation which the noble lord had cast upon them, of seeking to advance their own interests, whilst they pretended to advocate the cause of the farmer and the labourer. The landed gentlemen bad made sacrifices which were in the highest degree honourable to them. The principle of free trade might convert the lands of foreign countries from wastes to gardens, but it would convert the lands of England from gardens to wastes. Before this protection was taken off corn, ministers should determine to put the
356
l
l
l
l
Major Maberly
began by remarking upon the inconsistency of ministers with regard to this question. The right hon. gentleman opposite admitted, that last year he had promised to discuss this question in the present session, but said, that he had not performed his promise on account of the difference of circumstances between that time and the present. Yet, notwithstanding this breach of promise, the right hon. gentleman still expected faith to be placed in his word; and, at the end of the sentence in which he had made this admission, he repeated his promise. What was the case which the right hon. gentleman attempted to make out in justification of the breach of his promise? it was most unsatisfactory. The whole of it might have applied to any time and circumstances as well as to the present, and his arguments might have been moulded in the same manner, to answer his purpose on every occasion
357
358
s
s
s
Mr. Huskisson,
in explanation, denied that he had, last session, urged the prosperity of the country as an argument against going into a revision of the Corn-laws; nor had he in the present, quoted the distress as a reason for avoiding that measure. All he now said was, that any rapid reduction in the price of corn might be likely to create alarm, and aggravate the difficulties under which the country was labouring. As for the report to which the hon. member for Northampton had alluded, as soon as he received it, he had lost no time in laying it before the House.
Mr. Curwen
said, it was not his intention to occupy the time of the House more than a few moments. Indeed, he would not have presented himself at all, at that late hour, were it not that he was anxious to rebut a charge made against land-owners, that, in keeping up high prices, they were looking only to their own interests. He should blush at rising in his place, if he felt that such a stigma deservedly attached to that body. But he was glad to know that such was not the case. In advocating their interests, they were advocating those of the public at large. It was impossible that the manufacturing and other interests of the country could go on with what was called cheap corn; because cheap corn must
359
Mr. Wodehouse
said, he felt much obliged to the honourable mover for making out so good a case for the landed interest. That hon. gentleman had now appeared, for three successive years, in a very extraordinary capacity; for in three successive sessions of parliament he had prophesied that a famine would befal the country. Now, he was quite disposed, on many occasions, to go with that hon. gentleman; but really, where a man undertook to be weather-wise, he must be pardoned for thinking him otherwise. If the hon. gentleman would only print his speech of that night, as a summary of all the others that he had printed on the same subject, he would promise him that it should be treated better than the last; which, to say the truth, had not yet, to the best of his belief, been read by any member of the club of which himself and the hon. gentleman were members.
Sir Francis Burdett
said, he differed entirely in opinion from the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade, for he thought that there was no question which was more proper for discussion than that before the House; and none for which, by discussion, more was likely to be gained. He wished to hear the question argued fully and fairly—to hear as many gentlemen as possible express their opinions upon it, plainly and practically, but without such angry animadversions or imputations of interested motives, as could only tend to create ill feeling, and lead them from the real merits of the subject; and, although he regretted, at so late an hour, and in the present disposition of honourable members, to be compelled to occupy any portion of their time, yet he should be obliged to trouble them at some little length, from the peculiar situation in which he stood as to the arguments of the speakers who had gone before him. For, to deal candidly, although he could not agree in the view of the question taken by the honourable member immediately above him (Mr. Curwen), yet certainly he had not quite so disinterested a feeling upon it as that contended for by one or two honourable members who had spoken in the course of the debate. Standing as he did in the situation of a gentleman of England, possessing a landed estate, most certainly, if he believed that
360
361
362
363
364
365
366
s
367
Mr. Brougham
said, that taking warning by the impatience manifested by the House, he should address himself shortly and plainly to the simple question before them. That question was, whether they should go into a committee of the whole House, for the purpose, as he understood, of ascertaining whether or not some legislative measure might not be introduced which would settle this question? The right hon. gentleman opposite would not, however, accede to the proposal; he would not run the risk of prolonging the session a few short days, or a week or two at most, to enable them to settle this
368
369
370
Mr. Whitmore
briefly replied. He said, that in the temper of the House, he would not notice the arguments which had been brought against his proposition; but there was one personal imputation which he wished to correct. The hon. member for Surrey had stated, that he had caused great inconvenience by the notice of his motion; that since he had given notice of it, no sales could be effected but from day to day, and that the price of wheat had fallen. Now, he happened to have the returns of the price of wheat before him, and what was the fact? On February 15, 1825, the price was 60
s
d
s
d
The House then divided: For the motion 81; Against it 250; Majority 169.
List of the Minority.
Allen, J. A.
Ellice, E.
Barrett, S. B. M.
Evans, W.
Bentinck, lord W.
Fergusson, sir R.
Bernal, R.
Gascoyne, general
Birch, J.
Gaskell, B.
Bright, H.
Grattan, J.
Brougham, H.
Grenfell, P.
Burdett, sir F.
Grosvenor, hon. R.
Butterworth, J.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Buxton, T. F.
Hodgson, F.
Calthorpe, hon. A.
Hume, J.
Calthorpe, hon. F. G.
Innes, J.
Calvert, C.
James, W.
Caulfield, hon. H.
Kekewich,—
Colborne, N. W. R.
Labouchere, H.
Corbett, P.
Langston, I. H.
Cradock, col.
Leader, W.
Creevey, T.
Lester, B.L.
Crompton, S.
Leycester, R.
Davies, col.
Lloyd, J. J.
Denman, T.
Maberly, J.
Dowdeswell, J. E.
Maberly, J. L.
Dundas, hon. T.
Mansfield, J.
371
Martin, J.
Sykes, D.
Mildmay, P. St. J.
Taylor, M. A.
Milton, lord
Thompson, alderman
Monck, J. B.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Moore, P.
Tulk, C.A.
Ord, W.
Wall, C. B.
Palmer, general
Warre, J. A.
Palmer, C. F.
Whitbread, S. C.
Pares, T.
Wilson, sir R.
Philips, G.
Wilson, T.
Ramsbottom, J.
Wigram, W.
Ramsden, J. C.
Wood, alderman
Rice, T. S.
Wortley, S.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Wyvill, M.
Robarts, A. W.
TELLERS.
Robarts, colonel
Philips, G.
Robinson, sir G.
Whitmore, W. W.
Rumbold, C. E.
PAIRED OFF.
Scarlett, J.
Gurney, Hudson.
Stanley, lord
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, April 19 1826.
ITINERANT PARLIAMENTS.
Mr. C. Pelham
The motion was not seconded, and fell consequently to the ground.
RESOLUTIONS RELATIVE TO PRIVATE
Mr. Littleton
said, that, in laying before the House the resolutions he was about to propose, he might take it for granted, that, as they had been printed, their details were already known to honourable members. In preparing those resolutions, and in moving the appointment of a committee to investigate this subject last year, nothing was further from his thoughts than the hope of devising an effectual and decided remedy for all the evils which were complained of as being connected with the present system of getting private bills through that House. He deemed it, however, necessary, for the benefit of the public at large, that some alteration should be made in the constitution of
372
373
374
"That the present distribution of counties, for the purpose of forming committees on private bills, prepared under the direction of the Speaker some years ago, has, from the great inequality of the numbers of members contained in each list, and from other causes, been found not to answer the object for which it was formed."
375
Mr. S. Wkitbread
seconded the motion.
Mr. R. Colborne
observed, that, if any malpractices occurred in a private-bill committee, under the present system, it was competent to any member to complain to the House, and to have the evil redressed. The hon. mover seemed to think that his plan would make members more scrupulous in the discharge of their duties on private committees than they were at present. But public opinion was the great corrective in cases of that kind, as well as in those of every other description where public men were employed. He knew very well that litigious men might defeat a measure up stairs, by delaying time, and increasing expense. But it was difficult to say by what possible means that could be prevented. His impression was, that individuals would feel very unwilling to encounter the expense attendant on an appeal to a select committee. He believed the House would find it impossible to apply any remedy to the evil, except by the adoption of a summary process.
Mr. W. Peel
hoped the resolutions of the hon. gentleman would be agreed to. The unjust and disgraceful manner in which the private business of the House was carried on, rendered any change desirable. Any gentleman who entered a committee room must feel disgusted at the conduct of parties engaged in private bills. There was nothing like a fair and just consideration of the subject. He had seen every art exerted to defeat a bill, and every stratagem adopted to procure a vexatious and ruinous delay. If these resolutions were carried, it would put an end to this system, and with it, to those innumerable letters of invitation which gentlemen found on their tables every morning, soliciting them to come down and support bills without having heard one word of the evidence on which they were founded.
Mr. S. Whitbread
gave his cordial assent to the resolutions. The great evil of the system, and that of which he must loudly complain, was the power which it gave to every member to come down to the House and vote on a bill without Laving heard or read a particle of the evidence relative to it. The only objection against the resolution was, that members could not find time to perform the duties which they imposed; but he had always understood, that members were sent to that House to give their time and attention to the discharge of
376
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had not had much experience in private business up stairs: but, from all he had ever heard on the subject, he was led to believe that there was something in the manner in which it was carried on not at all creditable to the House, or beneficial to the interests of the community. With regard to the hon. member's resolutions, it was difficult to say beforehand, how far the whole of them or any part of them, might be calculated, satisfactorily, to meet the evil which had been pointed out. That could only be ascertained by experience; and, after all they had heard on this question—after being informed of the manifest grievances which arose out of those committees as they were at present constituted—they were called upon to do the best they could for the improvement of the system. If the resolutions failed, or if there were any insurmountable difficulty in the application of them, it would be competent to parliament to alter or rescind them. But it would be very much to be lamented, if, on account of any apprehended difficulty, they were to let the matter lie over, as they had done last year, without making any attempt to ameliorate the system. He therefore should support the resolutions.
Mr. Calcraft
said, that, although he disapproved of the resolutions, he did not know, as yet, whether he should take the sense of the House upon them. He conceived that what the chancellor of the Exchequer had just said, was a very strong reflection on the conduct of persons whose proceedings it appeared from his own statement he had not witnessed. A great complaint was made, that members voted without hearing the evidence. Now, in that House individuals frequently decided on a subject without hearing the argument; and in the committees up stairs, gentlemen acted upon confidence, just as they did below. He knew not, for his own part, how any resolution of the House could alter this. The object of the present resolution was that the Speaker should alter the mode of composing committees, because it was found that for some counties there were fewer, and for others a greater, number of members to be called upon to serve on committees. As well might the hon. member who, he presumed from this, was a reformer, come to the House and pray an alteration in the elec-
377
378
Lord Althorp
said, that the present resolutions did not go precisely and directly to any one of the causes of complaint. He was afraid that the right of appeal to a select committee would not produce the benefit to the public which the hon. member anticipated, while the new system must inevitably throw a great deal of additional labour on the members of that House.
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, he felt one great objection to the plan now proposed, which had not yet been noticed. That objection struck him so forcibly, that he hoped the sense of the House would be taken on the resolution. It was impossible to carry into effect the resolutions, without increasing the trouble and labour of the members of that House. He, however, had never shrunk from any parliamentary labour that was imposed on him. He had taken the burthen on himself; and, therefore, he had no right to complain. But let it be recollected, that in the next parliament, not merely a great part, but the whole of the members of that House would probably be occupied on election committees; and let gentlemen calmly consider, what an immense load of additional labour would be thrown on the members and the officers of the House, if they were called on, under these resolutions, to ballot for select committees to consider private bills. For this reason, he would oppose the motion.
379
380
Mr. Bankes
observed, that it would be impossible, in his opinion, to carry this complicated system into useful operation. The experiment might indeed be tried for a single session, but the duty imposed upon members was already sufficiently onerous. The effect of the resolutions would be, to increase litigation before the House and its committees; and this litigation would, of course, be attended with much additional expense to the parties concerned in private bills. He had no notion, that, after the trial of a single session, the project would be persevered in.
Mr. S. Wortley
said, that if, after a fair trial, the experiment did not answer, the machinery might be altered. All members would be liable to serve on the committees of appeal, and no exemption would be allowed. He did not think that at any time more than two days would be occupied by the additional investigation.
Lord Milton
contended, that it was impossible for the hon. member, with any certainty, to predict that the additional investigation before a committee of appeal would only occupy two days, when it was intended to admit counsel, who would exert all their ingenuity to spin out trifling questions to a most expensive and tedious
381
The resolution was again read from the chair.
Mr. Calcraft
again expressed his decided objection to all these needless and inconvenient forms, which would give rise to endless disputes and endless business. Already the severity of the calls upon the time of members was so great, that none but those of strong constitutions could endure it. If these ballots with locked doors, and all the other forms, were to take place before public business commenced, it would postpone it indefinitely. It was already a serious evil that discussions of important questions were deferred until so late an hour, that the House were weary before the principal topic of the night could be introduced. Ministers themselves were often unable to bring on debates until a most inconvenient hour. Under these circumstances, he should take the sense of the House upon the last resolution read from the chair.
Sir T. Acland
admitted, that the only real use he expected from the appointment of the committee of appeal was, that members would be deterred from a course hitherto sometimes pursued by them, by the knowledge that there was a tribunal before which their conduct in private committees might be investigated. Upon that conduct he would not now dilate, as it had already been sufficiently described and censured.
Lord A. Hamilton
objected strongly to the erection of any tribunal to arraign the conduct of members, where they might, as it were, be put upon their trial, and counsel employed against them, without the possibility of adequately meeting the charge. He was of opinion, that if the resolutions were carried, they would accomplish nothing by way of remedy for the existing evils.
Mr. S. Wortley
said, that the case had not been fairly stated. The committee would not be called on to decide upon the conduct of any member. All that, they would have to do would be, to decide
382
l.
l
NATIONAL GALLERY.
Mr. Herries brought up a copy of the Treasury Minute for the purchase of the three pictures which had lately been added to the National Gallery.
Sir C. Long
said, that being one of those at whose suggestion those pictures had been purchased, he thought that the public had a right to be satisfied with respect to the transaction. He confessed that he knew of no other way in which purchases for the National Gallery could be so satisfactorily effected as by the recommendation of a committee of competent persons. It was under such au arrangement that those pictures had been purchased, and it was the intention of government that no purchases should in future be made without a similar recommendation. He thought that, when the House looked at the names of those by whom the purchase had been recommended, they would find that they had every security they could desire. Those names included the earl of Aberdeen, sir George Beaumont, and sir Thomas Lawrence. When he mentioned sir George Beaumont, he could not help observing, that at the very time he was advising this purchase, he was presenting his own collection [hear, hear!]. With regard to the share which he himself had had in
383
384
Mr. Bankes
agreed with the right hon. baronet, as to the propriety of purchasing separate pictures, and not whole collections. The three last purchased he considered works of great merit, and believed that one of them was worth nearly the whole sum paid for the three.
Mr. R. Colborne
expressed his approbation of the purchases already made. They were the first specimens of the first-rate artists. There could not be a better foundation for a national gallery of paintings than those bought of the late Mr. Angerstein. To these were to be added the magnificent collection of sir G. Beaumont.
Mr. Hume
wished that, in the purchase of pictures for the national gallery, the names of those on whose recommendation they were selected, might be made known to the public; because the names of the selectors would be a pledge of the genuineness and excellence of the pictures. He highly approved of the beginning already made for the formation of a national gallery. By the selection of works like the pictures of Mr. Angerstein and those of sir G. Beaumont, we should soon have a most magnificent collection of the finest works of art.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, April 20 1826.
AFFAIRS OF GREECE.
Earl Grosvenor
rose to ask a question of great importance, to which he hoped the noble earl opposite would favour him with a reply. The information which he wished to obtain related to the war between the Greeks and Turks. A letter had been published in the newspapers respecting the result of the siege of Missolonghi, from which it appeared that that place had fallen. The heroic defence made by that place must be looked at with admiration by every one. It had sustained no less than seventy-three attacks in the course of eighteen months, and greater gallantry had never been displayed. The defenders of Missolonghi had shown themselves worthy descendants of the heroes of Thermopylae. He wished to know whether ministers
385
The Earl of Liverpool
said, he could not give any other answer to the noble earl as to the report of Missolonghi being taken, than that he believed it was not taken at the date of the letter to which the noble earl had alluded. Whether the place was taken or not he could not say; but as it was not taken at the date of the letter, the fact contained in it could not be true. With respect to the other question put by the noble earl, as to whether the Greek cause was now desperate or not, he should only say, that the contest being one with respect to which this country was perfectly neutral, he did not consider it a subject for discussion in that House. The policy of his majesty's government had been that of strict neutrality, and that policy, whether right or wrong, was before the House and the country.
PETITION OF WEST-INDIA MERCHANTS FOR PROTECTION OP THEIR
Lord Redesdale
presented a petition from certain merchants and others of the city of London, who hold mortgages, or have made advances on West-India property. In presenting this petition, the noble and learned lord dwelt at length on the distress to which persons interested in West-India property had been reduced. At present, no person would advance a shilling on West-India estates. But, amidst their distress, the unfortunate proprietors were obliged to go on, or the slaves would starve. Thus, there was no hope for them, since they could not get rid of their property; and if they continue to cultivate, it was at a loss. Married women, whose settlements depended on plantations, and orphan children, were left entirely destitute. Persons who held mortgages, if they applied to the proprietors of plantations, could ob-
386
The following is a copy of the Petition:—
The Petition of the undersigned Merchants trading from London to the British West-India colonies, and others holding Mortgages and other Securities upon Slaves and Lands in the said Colonies, humbly shewcth—
387
"That your petitioners form a portion of those British subjects who have embarked capital upon the security of slaves, lands, and other property in the West-India colonies, in full reliance upon acts and declarations of the British legislature, which, during nearly two centuries, have sanctioned and encouraged such investments in furtherance of the cultivation and prosperity of those colonics.
"That among the statutes of the realm to which your petitioners refer, that of the 6th Geo. 2, c. 13 (entitled an act for better securing and encouraging the trade of his majesty's sugar colonies in America), declares by its preamble, 'that' the welfare and prosperity of his majesty's sugar colonies in America are of the greatest consequence and importance to the trade, navigation, and strength of 'the kingdom,' and proceeds to enactments advantageous to the colonies. The act of 13th Geo. 3, c. 14, invites loans from aliens, on the security of freehold or leasehold estates in his majesty's colonies in the West Indies; and that of 14?th Geo. 3, c. 79, legalizes the taking interest by British subjects for sums advanced on mortgages and securities of any lands, tenements, hereditaments, slaves, cattle, and other things, at the rate allowed by the law in the colony where the mortgaged premises lie.
"That the cultivation of the British West-India colonics, by the labour of negro slaves imported from Africa, had, in this long period, not the cognizance merely, but the express sanction and encouragement of the legislature, which, in the preamble to the act of the 23rd Geo. 2nd, cap. 31, declares, that 'the trade to 4 and from Africa is very advantageous to Great Britain, and necessary for the supplying the plantations and colonies there unto belonging, with a sufficient number 'of negroes at reasonable rates,' and proceeds to enact that 'the said trade shall' be free and open to all his majesty's subjects.'
"That occasional efforts made by the colonial legislatures to check an excessive importation of slaves have been repelled and reproved by the mother country, whose deliberate counsels had established her African slave trade, and encouraged it upon grounds distinct from colonial interests before her colonies existed; that your petitioners, therefore, must protest against the injustice of throwing discredit upon West-India commerce and se-
388
"That it cannot be disputed that the well-being and comforts of the slaves in our colonies have been materially and progressively bettered since the time when the nation was holding out the strongest inducements to an increase of that number, during which period, and even subsequently, when great Britain abandoned and abolished her African slave trade, no intimation, with any semblance of authority, was announced, of effecting an extinction of slavery in the colonies, otherwise than by the means which an able writer, zealous for the attainment of that object, has pointed out, 'the same happy means which formerly put an end to it in England, viz.—by a benign, though insensible revolution in opinion and manners, by the encouragement of particular manumissions, and the progressive melioration of the condition of the slaves, till it should glide insensibly into general freedom:' the emancipation looked to was declared to be that of which, 'not the slaves but the masters, should be willing instruments and authors.'
"That your petitioners, by means of their constant intercourse with the colonies, are enabled confidently to assert that there prevails throughout the proprietors thereof, a liberal and constant attention to the wants and comforts of the slave-population, which is evinced by a plentiful supply (even in times when the returns may be inadequate to the costs) of such articles as will contribute to their well-being, and this resulting as well from considerations of humanity as from the known and acknowledged fact, that, upon the effective strength, comfort, and contentment of the labouring population attached to it, essentially depends the value of any West-India plantation.
"That your petitioners are well aware that your right hon. House may command from the highest and most unquestionable authority, evidence which will fully bear out these assertions respecting the existing comforts and progressively improving condition of the slaves in our West-India colonies.
"That representations of a contrary
389
"That the measures which, from motives of regard towards the slaves, have been adopted by his majesty's government, have unfortunately, and doubtless unintentionally, already caused a great deterioration of the property of your petitioners. These measures having been generally understood, as expressly preparatory to, and directly connected with, the emancipation of the slaves, and having not been accompanied with a distinct and explicit pledge of indemnification for the injury which property must sustain, not only in the attainment of the final object, but in the progressive operation of the means for its attainment. That owing to these causes, the confidence of capitalists has been influenced to such a degree, that West-India securities are become nearty valueless as transferable property—a circumstance which, at a period of general alarm and panic, similar to that which has lately occurred, must subject the holders of such property to extreme and peculiar difficulties. That, to this effect must powerfully contribute the measure announced of offering, as an adequate compensation in cases of compulsory emancipation, the estimated value of the liberated slave or slaves—a proceeding pregnant with alarm to the mortgagees and others of your petitioners holding various securities upon lands cultivated by slaves. And your petitioners humbly represent, that, until it shall be proved by experience that free negroes will work for hire, and carry on the ordinary cultivation of estates in a regular and effectual manner, the slaves must be considered as forming the essential part of the securities held by your petitioners, since land in the colonies would cease to be of any worth when
390
"That it has been the wise and just practice of parliament, when authorizing in this country any infraction of private: right or private property, to provide that the individuals so deprived shall receive from the public (for whose objects the sacrifice is demanded) a full and fair compensation for what is taken away, and even to admit that there be included in the price a consideration for the inconvenience and contingent loss which the individual may suffer from being compelled to part with his property. And your petitioners trust that the like measure of justice may be extended to their case; and that what would be considered to be injustice to a British subject holding property in Britain, will equally be considered to be injustice to a British subject holding property in the colonies.
"That your petitioners are persuaded that the reluctance and distrust with which the suggestions of the British government respecting an amelioration of the condition of the slaves have been received in various colonies, have been caused or aggravated in many instances by an indignant sense of those offensive misrepresentations of the conduct and motives of the colonists, which, in speeches and writings by eminent persons, have been so profusely addressed to the British public; and more especially and universally by the apprehension of danger threatening their properties and political rights; and your petitioners are confident, that were those feelings removed, together with the delusion which has been excited in the minds of the slaves by the prolonged discussions on the subject, the colonial legislatures would, with sincerity, zeal, and discretion, apply themselves to the deliberate consideration of all the communications made to them, with a view to correct whatever may be amiss, and to supply what may be wanting towards improving the condition and promoting the civilization of the slave population.
"That those independent colonial legislatures upon which for a long period has practically rested (subject to the
391
"That your petitioners have embarked their property in colonial securities, greatly induced thereto by their confidence in the experience and practical knowledge of the colonial legislatures, and in the advantage of having the laws and internal regulations of the colonies framed by those most competent to adapt them to the immediate character, habits, and intelligence of the various classes which compose their population; that if the slaves be taught to look for their protection and government to any other authority than that of the king and the legislative, or other local power which they have been long accustomed to respect and obey, the tranquillity of the colonies, and consequently the security of property therein, will be greatly endangered.
"That your petitioners would therefore regard an interference by the Imperial Parliament with the established jurisdiction of those legislatures, as a removal of one of the securities of property invested in the colonies; and they know that the bare suggestion of such interference has contributed to the discredit which already attaches to West-India securities.
"That the conduct of the colonial legislatures respecting the registry laws, together with the zealous reception and liberal support of the religious establishments with which they have been favoured, prove the good-will of the colonists, and their inclination to acquiesce in those views of the parent legislature which are directed to objects of unquestionable utility, provided they be secured against attacks upon their constitutional privileges, and those rights of property which have been established under titles and sanctions as valid as the law could give them.
"That your petitioners feel themselves authorized to declare, that the opinions
392
"That Great Britain, if she have the will, may doubtless impose upon her colonies a constraint which they cannot resist; and it is equally true that precipitate acts of power might produce ruinous extremities which the mother country did not contemplate, and which she might in vain attempt to remedy; but the attribute of the British legislature is justice, and to that your petitioners will make their appeal. Confident in their undeviating attachment to his majesty's person and government, and conscious of no crime by which their title to protection is forfeited, they do respectfully, but firmly, prefer their claim to full indemnification for all injury which constraint and force may inflict upon that property which, whatever may have been the circumstances of its original acquisition, is held, as it now stands, under the solemn guarantee of British laws.
"That your petitioners cannot conclude without noticing, that in many of the petitions to your right honourable House, which ask its interference with the colonial legislatures, there is a prayer that, in respect to the West-India colonies, the mother country will depart from that established policy by which the produce of capital and industry, which is purely and intimately British, and situated in parts of the empire whose commerce the mother country strictly controls, has a protection afforded to it in the home consumption over that which is foreign, or brought from appendages of the empire not so controlled, and less identified with the resources and interests of the mother country.
"That this prayer, if traced to its source, would, as your petitioners believe, be found to originate in interests of commercial rivalry; since it is at variance with a spirit of humanity towards the slave, whose well-being cannot possibly be promoted by any proceeding which tends to impoverish his master.
"Upon the grounds which your petitioners have now staled, they humbly
393
The Earl of Liverpool
said, he was sure that the petition which had just been presented would be received by the House with that respect to which, from the subject and the manner in which it was drawn up, it was entitled; but he wished to take that opportunity of saying a few words, in consequence of some observations which had fallen from his noble and learned friend. He could assure his noble and learned friend, that if there existed an intention in any party in this country to precipitate the emancipation of the negroes, without due preparation, no man could be more opposed to such intention than himself. He had always felt, that that was a measure which ought to be approached with caution and deliberation. The great interests and property at stake demanded this caution, and it was also to be considered, that the government and parliament of this country had been parties to the evils of slavery, in consequence of the direct encouragement which had, for a hundred and fifty years, been given to the state of things existing in the West Indies. Having said thus much, he must express his deep regret that the colonial legislatures should have proceeded in the course which they had hitherto thought fit to pursue. That in some of the colonies, from special circumstances, the measures recommended by the government might appear inapplicable was possible; but that could not afford an excuse for the conduct of the assemblies in refusing to legislate. It had been thought proper to mark out the course which appeared proper to be followed to accomplish the object which government and parliament had in view, and to hold up an example to the colonial legislatures. For this purpose instructions were sent out to the colonies under the immediate control of government. The
394
395
Lord Suffield
vindicated the abolitionists from the charges which had been thrown out against them. At none of the meetings which he had attended had any thing like precipitation in giving liberty to the slave been suggested. On the contrary, the greatest caution had been always recommended. As to the object of the petition, he must observe, that West-India property had always been distressed, and would continue so to be, until compulsory labour was done away with, and free labour introduced.
Lord Redesdale
admitted the advantages of free labour, but the difficulty was how to introduce it.
The Lord Chancellor
said, he regarded it as most fortunate for the country, that the language which had from first to last been held on this question in parliament, had always been recommendatory of a gradual abolition, to be brought about by precautionary and prudent measures. He must, however, beg leave to doubt, whether the same opinion pervaded the whole body of the abolitionists; for he believed, if the noble lord would examine the greater number of the petitions which had been presented to the House on this subject, he would find that they contained an express prayer for the immediate emancipation of the negroes.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he could not agree with the noble and learned lord, that the greater part of the petitions relative to negro slavery prayed for immediate emancipation. Every petition which he had been called upon to present, was of a different description; for he had not failed to look at each, with reference to that particular point, before he presented it; and, if in any one petition he had found a prayer for an object so pregnant with mischief to the negro-population, as well as to the planters, he should certainly have expressed his dissent from it. He was now about to present a petition which, like others which he had before submitted to their lordships, contained a declaration, that the petitioners approved of the resolutions adopted by the House of Commons in 1823, and wished to see the principle of those resolutions carried into effect: and to that extent he fully concurred with the
396
Ordered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 20 1826.
MR. JACOB'S REPORT ON THE TRADE
The following Report, ordered to be printed on the 14th of March, was this day delivered to the members:—
Instructions to Mr. Jacob, respecting the Prices of Foreign Corn
397
Office of Committee of Privy Council of Trade, 25th June, 1825.
Sir; It being the desire of the lords of the committee of his majesty's privy council for trade, to obtain the most correct information on every subject connected with the supply of foreign corn, I have been directed by their lordships to acquaint you with their intention to avail themselves of your services for the examination of the state of those countries, the productions of which find an outlet by the river Vistula into the Baltic. You will, therefore, be pleased to proceed with as much expedition as you can make convenient, to commence the examination, beginning at the city of Dantzic where the Vistula enters the sea.
Though you will direct your chief attention to that division of ancient Poland now comprehended in the Austrian province of Gallicia, situated between the river Bugg towards Lemberg, and the river Wisla towards Cracow, yet, in your route towards that district, the province of West Prussia, belonging to Prussia, and of Masovia, which now, under the government of Russia, forms a part of the viceroyalty of Poland, will require your examination.
At Graudentz or Thorn, in the Prussian part, it is understood that a toll is collected on wares in their passage down the Vistula; and you may, therefore, probably ascertain the quantities of corn which, in a series of years, have been annually conveyed down that river to Dantzic.
In the Russian provinces you will endeavour to make yourself acquainted with the nature of the transit trade in corn, with the state of the magazines of this article at Warsaw, Praga, and other places, and the modes in which, and the description of persons by whom, it is collected, for the purpose of transmission to Dantzic.
It will indeed be desirable to learn, with as much accuracy as possible, the quantity in warehouse, not only at the places you visit but at other places, and especially at Hamburgh, Konigsberg, Memel, Elbing and Riga.
In the Austrian province of Gallicia, as well as in the territories of Prussia and Austria, which will precede it in your route, you will obtain all the information in your power, regarding the condition of the soil; the manner of its cultivation; the average increase of the several kinds
398
With respect to the higher classes, it will be desirable to obtain as much information as possible, how far they have advanced in that knowledge which is applicable to the improvement of their domains; what zeal is felt for such improvement, and what unemployed capital is to be found which, in case of an increased demand for corn, would be likely to be applied to the advancement of agriculture and the increase of its productions.
It will be important to ascertain the prices of the several descriptions of corn at the places of their growth, as well as the expenses of conveying it to Dantzic or to Elbing, when it is carried to that port. This should not only comprehend the past and present period, but should be viewed prospectively, so as to estimate what would be the effect, if a constant sale could be found for the surplus corn of the country in the English markets.
You will endeavour to learn what the actual surplus of grain has been in a series of years, by ascertaining, with all possible accuracy, what quantities of each kind of corn have been sent out of the
399
Besides acquiring information on the present condition of Poland, including the dominions of the three great powers, their lordships would wish your attention to be turned towards all facts that bear on the subject of the changes that might be produced in that country, if such an alteration were made in our laws as would leave our markets at all times accessible to the corn grown in Poland.
You will consider, from the view you take of the country, what increase of cultivation would be likely to take place in consequence of such a stimulus being constantly in action; what effect the extension of cultivation to poorer lands would have on the general prices; endeavouring by every means in your power to arrive at some estimate of the additional quantities which, in years of medium productiveness, might be imported into this kingdom from Poland.
As it may be necessary to assume some given price in this country, in forming such an estimate as that to which I have now referred, it is thought desirable that you should proceed upon a supposition of an average price of wheat at home of from 60
s
s
Although I have not noticed the several kinds of animals in the country you are about to visit, their lordships would be pleased to know what proportion the food supplied by them bears to that supplied by corn, and other vegetable substances; and also if the quantity of live stock is such as, upon a more extended system of tillage, would be likely to afford the means of renovating the fertility of the soil, in a degree equal to the exhaustion which would be occasioned by a greater growth of corn.
There are other subjects which will present themselves to your observation, and engage your attention, which, in an immediate or indirect degree, may bear on the subject which has induced their lordships to employ you on this business; and these they trust you will report with all the exactness and accuracy in your power.
In every part of your journey you will bear in mind, and direct your inquiries towards the influence which the price of food in general, and of corn in particular,
400
In the report you may prepare for the notice of their lordships, when you have completed your examination, you will reduce all the monies, weights, and measures, of the different districts you examine, into those of this country; having reference, as far as regards the first, to the actual value of the paper currencies of Russia and Austria, circulating in the territories of those sovereigns; and to that of the metallic money circulated in the dominions of Prussia, as well as to the fluctuations in the rates of exchange. I am, &c. &c. (signed)
THOMAS LACK.
William Jacob, esq.
Mr. Jacob's Report on the Trade in Corn, and on the Agriculture of the North of Europe,
st February,
To the right honourable the Lords of the Committee of his Majesty's Privy Council for Trade.
My lords; In pursuance of the instructions communicated by your lordships on the 25th June last, I proceeded to the continent, passing through the Netherlands, the Prussian provinces on the Rhine, and the dominions of Saxony, to Berlin, and from thence by Stettin to Dantzic.
From Dantzic I travelled through the kingdom of Poland, visiting Thorn, Warsaw and Cracow; deviating in several directions from the main road, returned through Gallicia, Moravia, Austria, Bavaria and Wirtemburg, to Strasburgh, where I entered France, and by way of Paris reached England.
I was induced by my instructions, to direct my principal attention to the supplies of grain, and the nature of the commerce in it, within the districts whose surplus finds a vent through the mouths of the Vistula; and also to collect information on the subject in the other parts of the continent through which I passed.
I heard every where among landowners, farmers and corn merchants, complaints of the distress in which they were involved; and their complaints were far too general to leave room for the suspicion, that they were not founded on the existing state of their respective circumstances. The prices of produce of all
401
It appeared of some importance to collect, where it could be done with any assurance of accuracy, the prices of corn for a series of years. The wars, of which these countries have been the theatre, gave a degree of uncertainty to some of the accounts before the year 1815, and that uncertainty was, in several places, increased by the variations in the value of the circulating medium, which had taken place during the continuance of hostilities. Except at Dantzic, where a register had been kept for near two centuries; at Berlin, where, from the minister of the interior I received the prices for fifty years; and at Warsaw, where I obtained them from the Stadthouse, for thirty years; I confined my inquiries to the last ten years. The several accounts which were collected, form a part of the Appendix to this report.
As the facts collected, and the remarks made during my journey, are of very various kinds, and were committed to writing as they occurred, it may be more satisfactory to your lordships, if, after shortly describing the nature of the corn trade as carried on by the Vistula, which, as far as concerns wheat, is the most important; and, after recounting, according to my instructions, the quantity of wheat accumulated in the several exporting places, I state, whatever relates to the raising of corn, to the cost of its production, and the supplies yielded, in the different divisions of Europe, which have hitherto conveyed their grain to our markets, in the order in which I viewed the several countries.
The commerce of corn generally, in the countries whose connection with the sea is maintained by the river Vistula, has been extensive during a long series of years. The shipment to foreign countries was, during a long period, almost exclusively confined to the city of Dantzic.
The government of Prussia viewed with some jealousy the trade of that city, which was then one of the independent Hanse Towns, and having the land on both sides the river, from the boundaries of Poland to those of Dantzic, endeavoured, by forming the city of Elbing into a free
402
Some success attended this plan, and the trade was carried on through the two rival channels, with a competition which has been continued to the present time; for though Dantzic has been since added to the Prussian territories, and the preference given to Elbing consequently withdrawn, the latter city seems to have retained its proportionate share of the export of corn.
Attempts are at this time making by Russia, to divert the corn trade of Poland, but especially of the provinces of that country which have been separated from it and are now comprehended in Russia, to the port of Riga, as the place of shipment. For this purpose, canals are now constructing, which are intended to facilitate the conveyance of goods to the river Duna. It is not however probable, that a very great proportion of the trade will be drawn into that channel. The port of Riga is closed by frost a much longer time than that of Dantzic; the passage from it to the countries where corn is wanted is longer; the climate is less favourable for drying the grain after removing it from the barges, preparatory to shipment; and it, at present, has not those spacious, and well-adapted warehouses, for the secure deposit of corn, by which Dantzic is eminently distinguished.
Some portion of the corn is at present brought down to the sea shore, by the river Neimen; and, after paying a transit duty to Prussia, at the town of Schmaleningken, is conveyed to Memel. This branch of the trade is, however, but small, as it appears that, in the three years 1816, 1817 and 1818, a period when the general trade was the greatest, the whole quantity that paid the transit duty was only 49,596 quarters of wheat, 21,830 quarters of barley, 185,292 quarters of rye, and 108,482 quarters of oats.
From the southern provinces of Poland, viz. Sandomir and Cracow, in which the greatest quantity of the best wheat is produced, a portion is annually sent into the neighbouring Prussian province of Silesia, by land, where a part of it is consumed by the few inhabitants of Breslaw, and the other cities, who eat wheaten bread. The greater part is, however, conveyed by the river Oder, and then by the canal which unites that river with the Havel, to the city of Berlin. It forms an article in the weekly returns of the corn
403
Those other channels, by which the surplus corn of Poland is distributed, bear, however, but a small proportion to that which passes by the mouths of the Vistula, at Dantzic and Elbing; and the manner in which the trade by these places is carried on may deserve detailed notices.
The cultivators of that corn which is supplied to trade, are almost universally both owners and occupiers of the soil on which it grows. They cultivate it by the labour of their tenants or subjects, who raise sufficient for their own support, but have scarcely any surplus. It does not, as in most other countries, come to the several markets in small parcels. As wheat, particularly, can scarcely be there considered an article of food, it would scarcely ever find purchasers among the inhabitants of the countries in which it is grown, if it were brought to the weekly or other markets in their own towns. It is almost exclusively an article for foreign consumption.
The whole of the internal commerce of Poland is in the hands of the Jews, who are very numerous, comprehending nearly one-seventh of the whole population, and not being engaged in cultivation, nor inhabiting villages, forming the majority in most of the market towns. They are acute, temperate, economical, rather active than industrious, and are said to be possessors of the far larger proportion of the floating capital of the country. Almost every transaction passes through their hands, and few persons can either buy or sell, borrow or lend, without the aid of some individuals of that race. Though not allowed by the law to call themselves brokers, or factors, they are effectually such to the whole of the nation.
They are accused of nourishing a most implacable hatred towards all other people, and of deeming it no moral crime to deceive and cheat christians. Whatever of truth there may be in these charges, these supposed feelings of the Jews are met on the part of the majority of the other inhabitants, by a degree of con-
404
It will not appear surprising, on referring to the changes undergone, the ravages she has suffered from wars, the demands for the personal services of her proprietors in the armies, of the successive masters that have ruled the country, the exclusion from all foreign trade, and, till of late, the total absence of all manufactories, that there should be now great, individual distress, even whilst the country, as a whole, may be advancing in prosperity.
The individuals who most suffer are the landed proprietors, and they have, with a few exceptions, become dependent, in a greater or less degree, on the more monied Jews.
There is every reason to believe, that few landed proprietors are wholly free from incumbrances, and that many of them are involved to such an extent, that they are compelled to deliver to their creditors the whole surplus produce of their estates, as soon as it can be prepared for removal. The Jews, by their universal connection with others of their nation in distant places, have far better opportunities of knowing what prices they are likely to obtain for corn, than the gentlemen who raise it; and the latter, from their situation, must take that as the price which their creditors may determine.
On the banks of the Vistula there are many warehouses well adapted for preserving corn, at the places whence it is most convenient to embark it. The crops are generally removed from the farms of the proprietors as speedily as possible, and remain there in the power of the creditor, who either allows for it a stipulated price, or undertakes to convey it to Dantzic, to be sold at the risk of the debtor; but with the proceeds to be received by the creditor.
The charges for warehousing, shipping, freight, tolls, commission, and other demands, have been lately so high, in proportion to the prices, that very small sums have been carried to the credit of the landholder; and where estates are mortgaged, they have been generally insufficient in amount to keep under the growing interest.
405
There are two modes of conveying wheat to Dantzic by the Vistula. That which grows near the lower parts of the river, comprehending Polish Prussia, and part of the province of Plock, and of Masovia, in the kingdom of Poland, which is generally of an inferior quality, is conveyed in covered boats, with shifting boards that protect the cargo from the rain, but not from pilfering. These vessels are long, and draw about fifteen inches of water, and bring about 150 quarters of wheat. They are not, however, so well calculated for the upper parts of the river. From Cracow, where the Vistula first becomes navigable, to below the junction of the Bug with that stream, the wheat is mostly conveyed to Dantzic in open flats. These are constructed on the banks, in seasons of leisure, on spots far from the ordinary reach of the water, but which, when the rains of autumn, or the melted snow of the Carpathian mountains, in the spring, fill and overflow the river, are easily floated.
Barges of this description are about seventy-five feet long, and twenty broad, with a depth of two feet and a half. They are made of fir, rudely put together, fastened with wooden trenails, the corners dovetailed and secured with slight iron clamps, the only iron employed in the construction.
A large tree, the length of the vessel, runs along the bottom, to which the timbers are secured. This roughly-cut keelson rises nine or ten inches from the floor, and hurdles are laid on it, which extend to the sides. They are covered with mats made of rye straw, and serve the purpose of dunnage; leaving below a space in which the water that leaks through the sides and bottom is received. The bulk is kept from the sides and ends of the barge by a similar plan. The water, which these ill-constructed and imperfectly caulked vessels receive, is dipped out at the end and sides of the bulk of wheat.
Vessels of this description draw from ten to twelve inches of water, and yet they frequently get aground, in descending the river. The cargoes usually consist of from 180 to 200 quarters of wheat.
The wheat is thrown on the mats, piled as high as the gunwale, and left uncovered, exposed to all the inclemencies of the weather, and to the pilfering of the crew. During the passage, the barge is carried along by the force of the stream, oars being merely
406
The vessels are broken up at Dantzic, and usually sell for about two-thirds of their original cost. The men who conduct them return on foot.
When the cargo arrives at Dantzic or Elbing, all but the grown surface is thrown on the land, spread abroad, exposed to the sun and air, and frequently turned over till any slight moisture that it may have imbibed, is dried. If a shower of rain falls, as well as during the night, the heaps of wheat on the shore are thrown together, in the form of the steep roof of a house, that the rain may run off, and are covered with a linen cloth. It is thus frequently a long time after the wheat has reached Dantzic, before it is fit to be placed in the warehouses.
The warehouses are very well adapted for storing corn. They consist, generally, of seven stories, three of which are in the roof. The floors are about nine feet asunder. Each of them are divided by perpendicular partitions, the whole length, about four feet high, by which different parcels are kept distinct from each other. Thus the floors have two divisions, each of them capable of storing from 150 to 200 quarters of wheat, and leaving sufficient space for turning or screening it. There are abundance of windows in each floor, which are always thrown open, in dry weather, to ventilate the corn. It is usually turned over three times a week. The men who perform the operation, throw it with their shovels as high as they can, and thus the grains are separated from each other, and exposed to the drying influence of the air.
407
The whole of the corn warehouses now left (for many were burnt during the siege of 1814) are capable of storing 500,000 quarters of wheat, supposing the parcels to be large enough to fill each of the two divisions of the floors, with a separate heap; but as, of late years, it has come down from Poland in smaller parcels than formerly, and of more various qualities, which must of necessity be kept distinct, the present stock of about 280,000 quarters is found to occupy nearly the whole of those warehouses which are in repair, or are advantageously situated for loading the ships. Ships are loaded by gangs of porters with great despatch, who will complete a cargo of 500 quarters in about three or four hours. It is seen by table, No. 19, in the Appendix, that, within the last five or six years, the whole quantity that has been brought down has been diminishing; but I was told that no sensible decrease had been observed in the number of the separate bulks, only that each bulk, or the growth of each estate, or of each consignor, was smaller.
The trade in wheat from Poland and Prussia, through Dantzic, is said to have been attended with most ruinous losses to all the persons who have been engaged in it. The growers asserted that none for the last eight or nine years had yielded sufficient to cover the expenses of cultivation, and that it has been regularly getting worse and worse ever since the year 1818
The Jews, who have taken the crops from the growers, have found the decline of the prices such, that, if they sold on their arrival at Dantzic, it was attended with loss; and if they were in a condition to withhold from selling, and placed in warehouses, the loss was eventually much greater. The trade of Dantzic, which is chiefly confined to corn, has been for several years in a very distressed state. The commodity in which the traders have dealt, has of late so vastly declined in value, that what was purchased cheap at one period, became in a short time dear; the advances they made on what was consigned to them for sale, with the expense of conveyance, and of storing and preserving, soon amounted to more than the value of the wheat; and the consignors, in Poland, seldom united the ability and the disposition to make payments to indemnify them.
The corn now in the warehouses has
408
In calculating the stocks of wheat in the several ports of the Baltic, as I did not visit the whole of them, I was under the necessity of relying on the accounts that I could procure. His majesty's consuls offered their assistance, and furnished me with the following list, vouching for their accuracy to the best of their judgment.
Mr. Leutze,
the consul at Stettin, gives the following as the stocks in Pomerania.
Quarters.
Stettin
24,265
Anclam
10,586
Demmin
4,799
Stralsund
15,495
Griefswald
6,691
Wolgast
5,289
67,103
Mr. Gibson consul at Dantzic, to whom I am obliged for much other useful information, gave me the exact quantity at Dantzic and Elbing; viz.
Dantzic
*
288,000
Elbing
73,500
361,500
Accounts of the quantities of corn in store at Memel could not be procured; and, in the absence of better means of forming an opinion, I have compared the trade of exporting corn at Memel, with that at Elbing, and find that, in a series of years, the exports of wheat and rye together from the latter port, have been about double that at the former. I scarcely know if it be fair to infer, that the accumulated stock bears the same proportion to the annual returns. If so the stock on hand must be but small.
I can only judge of the stocks accumulated in Riga and Petersburgh, by
*
409
The state of the stock of corn at Lubeck, with the prices for the last eleven years, are shown in the Appendix, No. 33. It appears that the wheat in store there was 29,900 quarters.
Some small stocks may have been collected from the territories of the duke of Mecklenburg Schwerin, and accumulated in the ports of Rostock and Wismar. I have no information of the quantity, but should not be disposed to judge, from the general trade of those places, that more than a few thousand quarters were to be found in them. The greater part of the surplus corn of Mecklenburg finds a vent by Hamburgh, and is included in the imports, from the interior of that city. The access to the Elbe from all the southern ports of the Duchy, is easier than to the Baltic; the freights from thence to foreign markets is lower, and the passage shorter. It is in fact, only from the northern division of the Duchy, that the wheat finds a vent through its own ports.
Although not within the Baltic, nor within the limits of my late journey, yet the wheat, which descends by the rivers Weser and Elbe, have too much influence on the general corn trade, to be overlooked in this estimate of the stocks on hand.
The wheat stored at Bremen, comes by the Weser, chiefly out of the Duchy of Brunswick, though some of it is grown in Hanover; and, when the prices are very high, supplies are conveyed from Hesse Cassel, and even from some of the western districts of the Saxon duchies through Münden. That from Brunswick is of a moderate quality, but much of the other is very bad, and only fit for the English market in times of very great scarcity.
The stock in the granaries at Bremen, in the latter end of December last, consisted of 27,972 quarters of wheat and
410
Hamburgh is an important dépôt for corn, of some that is brought from Russian and other ports in the Baltic, as well as for the surplus of the several countries through which the Elbe in its long course is directed. Prussia, especially near Magdeburg, is a great corn country; but the chief grain cultivated in that division is rye. In the kingdom of Saxony, as well as in the Prussian province of that name, the quantity of rye very far exceeds the wheat, both in quality and quantity. In the years when prices are very high, the wheat of Bohemia comes down the river to Hamburgh; but the expense of conveyance, the length of the navigation, and the loss to which it is subject, act as a prohibition, except in seasons of great scarcity. The freight from Prague to Hamburgh is 12
s
s
d
s
d
From the shipping places below Prague the freight is lower; but the wheat grown near them is said not to be of so good a quality as that from the vicinity of that city, and the districts to the south of it.
The export trade in wheat of Hamburgh by sea, appears during the last ten years to have reached an annual average of 48,263 quarters; the greater part of the corn imported there being for the consumption of the city, and the surrounding territory belonging to it. In the Appendix, No. 32, is seen the course of the trade; the prices of all corn for the last ten years, the prices of wheat from 1791 to 1822, and the stock about 100,000 quarters, as taken at two periods in the last year.
Although the price of wheat as well as of other grain is very low in Denmark, yet the surplus quantity is very small; and the depressed prices may be in a great measure attributed to the restrictions upon Danish corn in the dominions of Prussia, its nearest and most populous neighbour. The wheat exported from the whole kingdom, in the six months which followed the abundant harvest of 1824, is seen in the Appendix, No. 35, to have been 57,561 quarters. By that account, it appears, that more than half the wheat was from the provinces of Hol-
411
These are the returns of the several places mentioned in the months of August or September, before the corn of the last harvest had made its appearance in the markets. I had reason from all my inquiries, both among cultivators and merchants, to conclude that very little corn remained in the hands of the growers, except in the very rare cases, where in the same person was united a confident expectation of an advance in the prices with a sufficiency of capital, to enable him to withhold from making sales.
The circumstances of far the greater number of the occupiers of land were too much embarrassed to allow of their keeping corn, when the importunities of claimants upon them were urgent for the discharge of their demands. The general accounts were, that all which could be sold had, from necessity, been turned into money. In some of the small towns in Prussia, when movements of the troops were making, and a squadron of cavalry on a march was quartered on them for a day, so little horse corn was to be found in the granaries, that the standing oats were cut and given to the horses, as they were taken from the fields.
When in Berlin, I was told by baron Von Bulow, minister of the Interior, that the government had recently instituted inquiries into the stocks of corn in the country, and the result of those inquiries showed, that the quantity in the whole of Prussia was much smaller than usual.
A very intelligent writer, a part of whose memoir [see Appendix, No. 9] I have translated, states the whole quantity of corn in the different countries of Europe, at 3,680,000 quarters. He includes in his estimate, rye, oats, and barley, as well as wheat, noticing the portions of each, which make up his total. Without attaching any great credit to the calculation, I allude to it because his views are those which I found commonly
412
I made it my particular business to inquire into the state of the stocks at the warehouses on the banks of the Vistula, where corn is collected until a sufficiency of one quality is accumulated to load a vessel. In former times, as I was informed, these stores used to have a large quantity placed in them when the water was low, to be ready to take advantage of the first autumnal rains.
The water was low when I was in Poland, from the long draught and great heat of the season; few or no vessels were navigating on the upper part of the river, and yet the storehouses on the banks were empty.
At Warsaw there are large warehouses, but in them there were not 200 quarters of wheat.
At Pulaway is a large magazine, capable of storing, and adapted for keeping in good order, 6,000 quarters of wheat; but it did not contain a single bushel.
At Cassimir there are several large warehouses, some of them from having had no business of any extent during the last four years, seemed to be in need of repairs. Others were, however, in good condition. The whole are capable of storing 80,000 quarters of corn.
In none of them was any wheat, though they contained some rye belonging to the government, which its agents had received for rent and taxes, from cultivators who could not pay money.
Rachow has warehouses for storing 14,000 quarters, but in them was neither wheat nor any other corn to be found. At Cracow the case was the same; the warehouses, which are extensive, were empty. The places I have noticed are the chief, where there are ferries over the river, and to which the roads from the surrounding districts lead. They are the most convenient for shipping goods, and most of the trade is despatched from them. There are a few others of smaller moment, which I did not visit, and only on hearsay know that they are alike without wheat.
From the view I have thus taken, I am led to the conviction, that neither in the sea ports, from which wheat is usually shipped, nor in the interior of the countries where it is grown, was there a stock which, if removed to the sea ports, would increase the amount of what is collected there to any sensible extent.
413
There is an accumulation in the Russian provinces of Podolia and Volhynia, which was reported to me to have been stored in caves under ground, containing four or five years growth.
Owing to the situation of those provinces, and the difficulties and expenses of conveyance, it is more likely to perish in the dépôts than to be conveyed to any places from which it can interfere with the trade of this country. The cost of conveying it to Dantzic would be equal to the price for which it would sell, and the shorter but more hazardous distance to Odessa would lead to a market there, lower than even that of Dantzic.
The produce of these two provinces was never large, and has only found its way to the sea shore, when very high prices have enabled it to bear the expense and risk of conveying it thither.
The whole stock of wheat may be now brought into one point; and appear as follows:
Quarters.
Pomerania
67,103
Dantzic and Elbing
361,500
Lubeck
29,900
458,503
Conjectural:
Denmark
25,000
Rostock and Wismar
25,000
Petersburg, Riga and Memel
100,000
608,503
In ports of the North Sea as ascertained:
Hamburgh
105,000
Bremen
27,970
Total
74,1,473
Of the wheat to which we have referred, as accumulated in the several ports, I was assured nearly one-fourth part is of so bad a quality, as to find no market in this country, except in seasons of uncommon dearth. If, then, out of the whole 741,473 quarters, 556,330 quarters were to be sent to England, it would not be more than the consumption of ten days.
The provinces, forming since the adjustment of territory, at the termination of the late war, a part of the Prussian monarchy, which have access to the Baltic sea, comprehend East Prussia, West Prussia, and Pomerania. They appear by the official accounts [see Appendix, No. 10] to have exported
414
It is possible that some portion of this quantity may have been produced in the internal contiguous provinces of Posen, Silesia, and Brandenburgh. As the trade in corn, between one province and another, is free in Prussia, there are no official accounts by which we can ascertain whether what is exported by sea, is the produce of the province from which it is shipped, or of some inland district.
As the special object of attention pointed out by my instructions, was the state of the countries, from which corn had been exported to England, I shall, therefore, in representing the state of the agriculture, confine my observations chiefly to the three maritime provinces before mentioned, but including in some degree the province of Brandenburgh.
Before the year 1807, the landed estates in Prussia, as in most other parts of Europe, were in the possession of large proprietors. Many of them could only be held by such as were of noble birth; and the merchant, the manufacturer, or the artisan, however much money he might have accumulated, could not invest it in such land until he had obtained a patent of nobility. These restrictions were removed by the king, about the year 1807, when the French had over-run the country.
A tenantry, in our sense of [the term, was then, as it still is, almost unknown. The land was worked by a class of persons, in some respect slaves; and in most respects but little removed from that condition. In many cases they had an hereditary kind of right to some use of the land, such as to grow one crop of corn according to a prescribed course, whilst the lord had the right of pasture between the crops. These peasants were sold with the land, or descended to the heir, and were bound to perform certain labour or services for the lord. They could not, on the other hand, be dismissed from their holdings, nor had their superior any power over the property they might happen to be able to accumulate.
The conditions upon which the peasants held their portions of land, were
415
By a series of legislative measures, marked by a character of peculiar boldness, which were enacted from 1807 to 1811, the whole of the enslaved peasants have become converted into freemen and freeholders. In some cases the holdings have been equally divided, and the peasant has his moiety in perpetuity. In cases where the lords claims for personal services were more extensive, the peasant had a smaller share in the land. In some instances, compensations in money were settled by compact between the lords and the peasants, sometimes by the payment of a fixed sum, or by a security on the land allotted in perpetuity to the peasant, for the payment of such sum. Sometimes the peasant retained the whole of the land he had before used, paying to the lord the value of that portion which might otherwise have been given up to him.
The successive measures by which the peasants were raised to the rank of freemen, were not received by all, with equal readiness. The lords were compelled, but the peasants were allowed to decline compliance; and, even to the present day, some few prefer the ancient mode of their holdings, to that which the laws have allowed.
Although the foundation is laid for a new and better order of things, yet its effects on the agriculture of the country have not hitherto been fully realised. The abolition of personal services, and of hereditary ownership of such services, has been too recent for the full operation of the change of the parties, from the relation of master and slave, to that of employer and employed, to produce the effect which is its natural tendency. It is obvious, that all the operations of agriculture are still performed by the labourers, with a listlessness and slovenly indolence which was natural to their former character, and which their new condition has not yet had time to remove.
The land in the three maritime provinces, as indeed in almost the whole of Prussia, may be considered as either in very large portions belonging to the nobility, or to the new class of proprietors; or as very small portions, such as under the ancient system were deemed sufficient for half the maintenance of the family of
416
With some few exceptions, and those very few, no rent is paid, but each occupier, whether a large or a small one, is his own landlord.
The deviations from this general view are to be found, for the most part, on the banks of the great rivers, where meadows, either for the purpose of fattening cattle, or of saving hay, for the supply of large towns near the mouths of these rivers, are let to tenants for money rents. On the banks of the Oder, near Stettin, I saw some meadows let from 10
s
s
The domains of the Crown are differently circumstanced from other land, and are let to farmers. The greatest part is in the occupation of persons, whose ancestors had long held them at low rents, without their being charged to the land-tax or Grund Steuer. When by new laws the taxation on land was extended to the estates of nobles, those of the Crown were included, and charged with the tax. At first the high prices which corn bore, enabled the occupiers to pay the trifling rent, as well as the tax; but as corn declined in price, they became unable to pay both. The taxes were in
417
These national domains are of such various qualities, and in such different localities, that it is difficult to find what is the average rent of them per acre. Some of them are let as high as 3
s
d
s
d
d
d
s
d
l
s
d
l
s
d
These two farms, with the others noticed in the same paper, are occupied by some of the most skilful cultivators of the district; and yet the accounts show, that small as the rent is, and judicious as the management may be, the produce falls short of the cost of production even, though the rent should be given up.
Although the royal domains are here noticed, they bear a small proportion to the whole land, in the province of West Prussia, where they are situated, not exceeding one-sixtieth part of the whole.
The value of land generally is low, as may be inferred from the low price of produce, and of rents for what little is rented. An estate of medium soil was put up to auction, and not producing an offer equal to the sum for which it was mortgaged, was taken by the mortgagee. The extent is about 6,000 morgens, or about 4,200 acres. It is chiefly a thin sandy soil, in some few parts approaching to loam. The principal and interest due to the mortgagee was 3,000
l
418
l
l
In the same part of Prussia, another estate, one of the best in the district, with a good house, with all the buildings in good repair, and the land in a high state of cultivation, was offered for sale, and though when I was there the 6ale was not completed, I had reason to believe an agreement for it would speedily be concluded.
The soil is good sandy loam, chiefly arable, with some pasture, the extent 2,800 acres. The price, at which I believe the contract to have been since made, was between 5,200
l
l
If these two instances may be taken, as nearly the highest and the lowest price of the average arable land of the maritime provinces of Prussia, the highest limit will be somewhat less than 40
s
s
This tract of land forming the maritime provinces of Prussia, is a portion of that vast sandy plain which extends from the shores of Holland to the extremity of Asiatic Russia. It has scarcely any elevations that merit the title of hills, and, where not covered with woods, spreads out in open fields of great extent. The soil in some places is barren sand, occasionally with no appearance of vegetation; in many parts with no attempt at cultivation, and what is cultivated appearing to yield-but scanty returns. The land is too
419
According to the official documents which I collected, it appears that the three maritime provinces of East Prussia, West Prussia, and Pomerania, including in the latter the late Swedish territory, contain about 25,500,000 acres, or more than half the extent of England. By an official account, made up in 1821, the stock of cattle appeared to be as follows, at the latter end of the year 1819; viz., 556,839 horses and colts; 1,171,434 oxen, cows, and calves; 2,049,801 sheep and lambs; and, 617,310 swine.
The lowest estimate of the stock of cattle in England, which I have ever met with, gives three times this number of horses, and more than four times the number of cows and sheep, to the same extent of land; and most of those who have calculated on the subject, have carried the proportion of cattle to the surface in England, much higher. I had reason to believe, though not from official sources, that the number of sheep, between 1819 and 1824, had increased at the rate of from 20 to 25 per cent, and that the proportion of fine-wooled sheep, to those of coarse wool, had been augmented beyond that proportion.
From this deficient stock of the animals, from which manure is derived, it will naturally be inferred, that the increase of grain must be very small. I was satisfied, from my own observations, and it was confirmed by the opinion of intelligent natives, that much of the land in cultivation could not yield on the average more than three times as much corn as the seed that had been sown.
The calculations made by the most intelligent statistical inquirers, and the most observing cultivators, have not estimated the average increase of the four kinds of grain; viz., wheat, rye, barley, and oats, taken together, to be more than four times the seed.
The general course of cultivation is, to fallow every third year, by ploughing three times, when designed for rye, or five times if intended for wheat, and allowing the land to rest without any crop during the whole of the year, from one autumn to the next. Most of the land is deemed to be unfit for the growth of wheat, under any cir-
420
I have reason to believe, that, of late years, the proportion of rye to wheat has been increasing. The first is an article of domestic consumption and of universal demand; the far greater number of the inhabitants eat only bread made from it from necessity, and those who can afford wheaten bread, eat commonly that of rye from choice. At the tables of the first families, both in Germany and Poland, though wheaten bread was always to be seen, I remarked that the natives scarcely ever tasted it; and I have met many Englishmen, who, after a long residence in those countries, have given the preference to bread of rye.
From the time I left the Netherlands, through Saxony, Prussia, Poland, Austria, Bavaria and Wurtemberg, till I entered France, I never saw, either in the bakers' shops, in the hotels, or private houses, a loaf of wheaten bread. In every largetown, small rolls made of wheaten flour could be purchased, and they were to be seen at the tables at which foreigners were seated. In the small towns and villages only rye bread can be obtained; and travellers commonly take in their carriages sufficient wheaten rolls to supply them from one large town to the next. Wheat is only used by the natives for making what our English bakers would call fancy bread, or in pastry and confectionery. If there be no foreign demand for wheat, the difficulty of selling it, at any price, is great; and that little, which the very limited demand of other countries has of late years required, has been confined to wheat of the best quality; for rye, on the other hand, sales may be always made at a market price; and the price of that grain has not been depressed in the same proportion as the price of wheat.
Although the increase of wheat is greater than that of rye, yet as it absorbs all the manure of the farm, and requires the land to be ploughed twice more, it is now deemed to be the least profitable of the two crops, by many of the farmers.
421
As the rye receives the full benefit of the fallow, its increase is greater than that of the spring crops which follow it.
Barley and oats are sown in the spring which follows the harvesting the wheat and rye, and these complete the course, which is again followed by a whole year's fallow. By this rotation of crops, the land bears corn only two years out of every three; and the crop of the last year scarcely produces three times the quantity of the seed that was sown.
This opinion, formed by my own observations, strengthened by the reports of the most intelligent persons with whom I conversed, who were connected with practical agriculture, receives some confirmation from a paper furnished to me by Mr. Leutze, his majesty's consul at Stettin; according to which, in 1805, the year previous to that in which the country was over-run by the French, the quantities of corn sowed and harvested in the province of Pomerania, when the Swedish part was not incorporated with it, are as follow:
Bushels.
Bushels.
Wheat sown
155,936
produced
996,224
Rye-sown
1,254,960
produced
4,383,584
Barley sown
619,992
produced
2,757,688
Oats-sown
1,245,704
produced
2,975,880
This view of the low rate of increase is further confirmed by the official accounts of the produce of several farms in West Prussia [see Appendix, No. 11, B.], by which it appears, that on six farms, on which 4,864 acres are cultivated with corn, the produce was only taken at 10,000 quarters in 1824, which is represented to be a favourable year.
Though some few of the large proprietors may, by the increase of their flocks of sheep, and by the assiduous attention to every branch of cultivation, have improved their land and raised the increase of their seed, I see no reason to believe that to be the case to an extent, which can have a sensible influence on the average of the whole mass of production.
If we consider the calamities which Prussia endured, and the strenuous exertions she made to terminate them, we shall scarcely suppose that the interval from 1815 to 1825 has been sufficient to regain what she had lost; in the eight years which preceded that period, more especially as up to the present time, the market prices of her chief productions have been suffering a regular decline.
I should not deem the other maritime provinces of Prussia to be much more productive than Pomerania, as a whole,
422
Like others, I was prevailed upon to pay the closest attention to the details and face of the land of the most skilful, the most affluent, and most productive proprietors. I visited several noblemen, whose knowledge of and attention to agriculture was fully equal to that of any men in this or any other country; and, if the produce of the land was not equal to that raised by our best farmers, the difference must be attributed rather to the soil and climate, than to any deficiency either of capital, of skill, or of assiduity.
On such property the wheat sown was very insignificant, and the proportion of that grain to rye, had gradually declined of late years. One nobleman, who farmed his estate of 26,000 acres, of which two-thirds was tillage, and one-third woodland, grew but a few acres of wheat, and of late had sold no corn of any kind. From the ports of England being shut against corn, he had turned his attention to the production of fine wool. On this estate there is a flock of 15,000 Merino sheep, yielding on an average two and a half pounds of fine wool, the annual sales of which amount to one half more than the value of the sheep. Through the five winter months, the sheep are fed with corn, chiefly rye, at the rate of one pound per day, which is estimated to be equal to three pounds of hay. The proprietor calculated, that sheep thus kept, yielded nearly as much more wool as, added to the benefit which the manure of the animals received from that kind of food, was equal to the price he should have received for the corn, if he had sold it; and that the profit, on this system, was the value of the whole of the hay, which would have been otherwise consumed. Instead of selling he finds it more profitable to buy corn.
423
On the same property, the extent of land planted with potatoes, was upwards of 1,500 morgens, or about 1,000 acres, the chief part of which were used in the distillery, which seems an indispensable adjunct to every well-managed farm. The calculation made there was, that two bushels of potatoes yielded as much ardent spirit, as one of barley; and that the residuum, after extracting the spirit, was equal in alimentary power, for the draft bullocks, which are fed with it, to two-thirds of its value, before the wort was extracted from it. By the process on this estate, nine bushels of potatoes are mixed with one of malt, to draw the wort, which is afterwards distilled, so as to produce a spirit containing 80 per cent of alcohol, in which state it pays a duty (much complained of) of sixpence per gallon. It is reduced, before it is sold, till it retains 50 percent of alcohol; and the price charged to the retailers is about fourteen-pence per gallon.
Another person of the same rank, who bad turned his attention to the improvement of his property, boasted that his corn land already yielded near six-fold for the seed that was sown, and could be further increased. He, too, cultivated potatoes very extensively; and, by convening them into starch and treacle, made that land yield a profit which had it been devoted to corn would have produced a loss. He had tried to make sugar from potatoes, and found it not advantageous; but he assured me that treacle paid him well, and he could afford to sell it at 18
s
s
A nobleman whom I had before known, to whose hospitality I am much indebted, and whose estate I viewed in detail, took the trouble to furnish me with the course of cultivation he pursued on the property on which he resides [see Appendix, No. 12.3 Though cultivated with care, and though fairly productive, I readily give credit to what he assured me, that the whole benefit which he derived from the estate of 6,300 acres, in his joint capacity of landlord and cultivator, had not exceeded the amount for which he had sold his annual clip of the wool of his flock of 4,000 sheep.
On the several other estates that I viewed, the recurrence of corn crops was
424
A number of proprietors, residing on their lands, devoting their time and attention to its improvement, and acquiring the practical and economical habits which their affairs render necessary, must have a beneficial influence on the cultivators around them. In this view, perhaps, the distress which has been occasioned by the depressed prices of agricultural produce, may, at some future time, under happier auspices, be highly advantageous to the community. But, in the mean time, the influence of the best specimens of cultivation have been very limitted. Few of the proprietors have any capital to buy sheep or other stock, or to enable them to wait for those returns of their outlays, which come in with the most dilatory pace where the management of land is the best. He who has to answer the demands of the labourers, the tax collectors, and, where it occurs, of the gatherer of rent, or of interest on mortgages, must sell his corn at any price that is offered for it, without waiting to convert it into wool, as the nobleman to whom I have alluded is enabled to do. It is more the state of embarrassment, in which almost all the proprietors are placed, than the want of knowledge or assiduity, that prevents the Agriculture of the Prussian dominions from making more considerable advances.
Formerly, the majority of the estates, as belonging to nobles, and only capable of being held by that class, were nearly inalienable; but the necessity of relieving the most harassed of that body, induced, the government to form a plan by which money might be borrowed on the security of land. At first this power was confined to the lands of the nobles, but was afterwards extended to all others.
The Landschaft, or States, a local assembly of the principal proprietors, were authorized to make a valuation of such estates as were to be mortgaged, and to issue writings denominated pfandbriefe, or mortgage debentures, which bore interest, and were transferable with little trouble and expense, on which one-half, and in some, instances, six-tenths of the Landscbaft's
425
At the time of the valuation, the system of duty work, as known in France by the name of corves, was general. The taxes on the land, for the families who fell in defence of their country in the late war, and for such as were disabled, were not imposed, and those for the local purposes of roads, bridges, the poor, and other objects, were much lower than they are at present. Whilst, by gradual steps, for the last ten years, the price of all kinds of corn, except of wheat, which is the smallest portion, bas fallen below those at which the valuations were calculated in the year 1794, the increase of taxes and of the prices of labour have been advancing. Thus many of the estates, which, for the first twenty years, could easily discharge the demands upon them, are now become utterly unable to meet those demands. I bad heard so many tales of the distress occasioned by this course of events, that I wished to ascertain the extent of it as accurately as possible. Having found in Mr. Rothe, the president of West Prussia, as well a disposition to communicate information of every kind, as the qualities of accuracy and discrimination, I was induced to submit to him, in writing, some queries on this, as well as on some other subjects, which he very politely and speedily answered.
The replies, in Appendix, No. 11. (A.) show, that of 262 estates, within the limits
426
The mortgagees are thus induced to leave them in the hands of the apparent owners in the hope of a change of times, and from the fear of diminishing still more, the value of their slight security. Besides these mortgages, which are registered in the hypothecation books of the landschaft, many of these large estates, when the value of the produce was very high, were enabled to borrow, on subsequent mortgages; which, as they are of no validity till those registered are liberated, have in many instances, been attended with a total loss to the lenders.
It is obvious that, when that which for a long period has been deemed the most secure, if not the only secure investment for money, becomes of no avail, the consequence must be highly distressing, and peculiarly so, because the principal suffering must, of necessity, fall on those least able to contend with the adverse circumstances in which they are placed.
The new proprietors, who have been raised to that condition by the abolition of the ancient feudal tenures, though they can scarcely ever want the bare necessaries of life, have very little beyond them. If they happen to be both industrious and economical, their own labour, on the small portion of land which they possess, will supply them with potatoes and some little bread corn, as well as provision for their
427
Though the rate of wages is very low [see Appendix, No. 11], not averaging more than five-pence per day, yet the day labourers who have constant employment, with a cottage, potatoe ground, and flax patch, are said to be somewhat better circumstanced than those persons who have been recently raised from the feudal ranks to that of freehold proprietors.
Those labourers who are boarded in the houses of their employers have a sufficiency of food, consisting of rye bread, potatoes, of buck-wheat made into soups of various kinds; and in many instances are provided with meat, commonly bacon, twice a week.
The aged and infirm poor have demanded consideration only since the abolition of the feudal tenure. Before that period, each lord considered himself bound to assist in their support, and generally attended to that duty, where the deficiency of means in the power of the relations of the aged and infirm made it requisite. A regular system of taxation for the poor has not yet been introduced, though the first steps towards it have
428
A very intelligent and benevolent nobleman, at whose house I spent a few days, assured me, that in the extensive, but thinly-peopled district where he had a share in the directing the assessments and expenditure of the local taxes, there was but one family which subsisted wholly on those taxes; and that others depended on the kindness of relatives and friends, with some occasional assistance from the local fund.
In general the soil of the maritime provinces of Prussia is so light, that it may be easily ploughed with two oxen, and those of diminished size, and no great strength. I have not unfrequently seen, on the smaller portions of land, a single cow drawing the plough, and whilst the plough was guided by the owner, the cow was led by his wife. The more tenacious soils, on the banks of the streams, are commonly but of small extent. There is indeed a large portion of land in the Delta, formed by the separation of the Nogat from the Vistula, between Derschau and Marienburg, which, under a good system of management, would be highly productive, and which requires greater strength to plough. There are some others, especially near Tilsit, of less extent; but the whole of them, if compared with the great extent of the surface of the country, are merely sufficient to form exceptions to the general classification which may be made of the soil. The various implements of husbandry are quite of as low a
429
The monied value of the live stock on the farms is low. The best flocks of Merino sheep, exclusive of the wool, is averaged to be worth about 6
s
s
d
s
s
s
s
s
s
The general burthens of the state in Prussia, are the subject of complaints among all classes; and, although they may appear to us to amount to a very small sum, rated by the number of persons, they must be considered heavy, in a country so destitute of little other capital than that of land, now vastly depreciated in value. The whole taxes in Prussia amount to about 10
s
Those taxes pressing peculiarly on the land are, first, the grund steuer or land-tax. This is not, however, imposed on each province, but only in those where it existed before they were united to the Prussian monarchy. This is not levied in Brandenburg, though it is collected in each of the three maritime provinces, which are the subjects of more immediate consideration. This tax was designed to be
430
The land is divided into six classes, the rent of the lowest of which is estimated to be about 7
d
s
d
l
The local taxes, which have been already noticed, do not fall wholly on the land. That for the disabled soldiers, and the families of such as fell in the conflicts, is in part borne by the cities and towns, though the chief weight falls on the land. The same, in some measure, is the case respecting the tax for roads, bridges, schools, and the poor. These are various in different districts, so that it is impossible to form any general estimate of their amount. In some parts of the country, I was told, that the local taxes were equal to the grund steur in their district; in some, that it was higher; and in others, that it did not amount to one-tenth. Among the cultivators, I heard much complaint of the heavy tax on the distilleries. As far as the tax operates to diminish the consumption of the grain, or other products of the land from which spirits may be extracted, it is a burthen on the land; but I have reason to believe that, from the mode in which the tax is collected, those who have distilleries on their farms, by paying the tax at a high degree of strength, and supplying it to the retailers at a lower strength, are so far from being aggrieved, that they are really benefitted by the tax.
The village clergy have commonly a house, some glebe land, and a fixed annual portion of corn, which, in most cases, is delivered to them by the lord, in pursuance of an ancient arrangement. The quantity has been long since defined, and not being subject to any alteration is scarcely ever spoken of as a burthen on the land.
The other taxes bear no more on the persons employed in agriculture than on those engaged in pursuits of a different
431
The military service is extremely onerous, as every young man is compelled to serve three years, from the age of twenty to twenty-four, as a soldier. This, though not precisely a tax, and not peculiar to the agricultural class, is a burthen which perhaps presses as much on the productive industry of the country, as the heavier taxes that are collected in other countries. To this must be added the quartering of the troops, who are billetted on private houses; and however well discipline may be maintained amongst them, must be a great annoyance, and in most cases an expense, which, though apparently trifling in amount, becomes weighty to those whose means of supporting it are small.
In a country where four fifths of the inhabitants subsist wholly by producing food, and depend for the conveniences besides bare food, on the price which they can obtain for their surplus, the low rate at which that surplus can be disposed of must be felt and observed in every rank of society.
The scale of living in the country we are considering, corresponds with the low prices of the objects in which their labour is employed. The working class of the inhabitants, amounting in the maritime provinces to upwards of a million, including both those who work for daily wages and those who cultivate their own little portions of land, cannot be compared to any class of persons in England. This large description of the inhabitants live in dwellings provided with few conveniences, on the lowest and coarsest food; potatoes, or rye or buck wheat are their chief, and frequently their only food; linen, from flax of their own growth; and wool, spun by their own hands, both coarse and both worn as long as they will hold together, furnish their dress; whilst an earthen pot that will bear fire forms one of the most valuable articles of their furniture.
As fuel is abundant, they are warmed more by close stoves than by the shelter of their wooden or mud houses, covered by shingles, which admit the piercing cold of the severe weather through abundant crevices. If they have bees and a plot
432
In common seasons this description of people suffer much in the winter; but in times of scarcity, such as followed the disastrous harvest of 1816, their distress and their consequent mortality is largely increased.
It is not intended to insinuate that all the small farmers are in the circumstances here described. In some situations there is a most pleasing difference; on the banks of the Oder, below Kustrin, a colony is established on a rich tract of land, called the Neiderung, recovered by embankment from the river; The inhabitants were invited here on account of a persecution of the Protestants in Bavaria and the Palatinate, during the reign of Frederick the Great. They are exempt from most burthens, the soil is highly fertile, and the district more resembles some parts of Flanders than the other districts of Prussia. The properties are from six to twenty acres, but subdividing as the population increases, as each of the sons share the land alike. It is thickly peopled, and most of the produce is consumed on the spot where it grows.
A similar district near Dantzic, on the banks of the Vistula, called the Neherung, exhibits a similar picture. The chief inhabitants are a religious sect, called Menonites whose principles forbid them to become soldiers, from which they are excused, on condition of paying a higher rate of taxation.
On the banks of the Nieman, and in some other spots, are similar groups of small occupiers in tolerably easy circumstances. They are, however, not a thirtieth part of the whole of the class, and where they occur are only exceptions to the general description.
As these people happen to be placed in spots of rare fertility, to be freed from some imposts, and to be distinguished by their sobriety, industry and economy, they are going on increasing in numbers, till, in a few years, the division of land will be so great as to cause the necessity of removal to less-peopled districts.
The representation of the distressed
433
"With regard to the prayer for an intercession with the English government to repeal the Corn bill, his majesty expressed a hope, that to improve the intercourse between the two nations, a change will take place in the English Corn laws."
"Berlin, 26th November, 1825, from the Hamburgh paper, 'The Correspondent.'"
One of the effects of the agricultural distress, which was visible in the condition of the inhabitants, seemed to be a decrease in the cultivation of bread corn.
The replies of the president Rothe, [see Appendix, No 11, B.] shows that on six farms, amounting together to 10,390 acres, of which eight years ago 6,926 acres were cultivated with grain, there are at present only 4,864 acres applied to that purpose. Mr. Gibson, his majesty's consul at Dantzic, states, in a letter received since my return, dated 24th November, 1825, that the "cultivation of wheat has been much circumscribed of late years; and that it will take much time to extend it; that flax is cultivated now to a much greater degree than formerly in East, and parts of West Prussia; that the export of butter is increasing very much; that rape seed is attracting much attention; and that these circumstances, with the breeding of sheep, will further operate in diminishing the production of grain." It appears, too, by the official returns of exports [see Appendix, No 10,] that the excess of exports of corn in the years 1821, 1822, and 1823, had much declined from those of former years; and that in the year 1824, the maritime provinces of Prussia, instead of having any surplus of wheat, imported 47,236 quarters more than they exported.
434
Those Prussian provinces to which my chief attention was directed have never been manufacturing districts, although they have, during a long series of years, made both linen and woollen cloths for their own use. They have had rather domestic labour than any establishment for the purpose; of late, however, attempts have commenced upon a larger scale, and projects were in agitation of various kinds, for making woollens and cottons in manufactories where the aid of machinery was to be applied. The chief inducement to these attempts was the low price of provisions, and the consequent expectation of a low rate of labour; they were, however, but attempts, and were not viewed with any very promising expectations by the persons I had any opportunity of conversing with on the subject. They seem to be rather the creations of the government, than the spontaneous issue of the deliberate calculations of capitalists seeking for beneficial modes of employing their money.
The only kind of goods that I heard of, calculated for distant markets, are some made of the native coarse wool, dyed deep blue, trials to introduce which have been made in England. These are made by some small farmers who were employed in the summer on the land. They are made out of 181bs. or 20lbs. of wool, worth about sixpence per pound. The spinning is performed by the females of the family, whilst the father weaves them. It employs him three days to weave a piece, which is about sixteen yards in length, and forty-two inches wide. The value of his day's work was slated to be 9
d
s
d
s
435
I have no reason to think that hitherto the low price of corn has had the effect of lowering the price of manufacturing labour, in any degree approaching to the depression which the products of the soil have experienced. In the building of ships, which is indeed the chief manufactory of the maritime provinces, the rates of wages have very considerably fallen, not, indeed, so much as bread, but to an extent that has increased the building of vessels, and induced some English houses to contract for the building of Prussian vessels to be employed in distant voyages.
The effect, however, of the low prices of agricultural produce, is more experienced in the provisions for the crew, than in the cost of the constructions of the ships. This may be seen in the cost of food for a Prussian ship in the Appendix, No. 13. It is true that our seamen are accustomed to better food than the Prussians, but their superior professional skill makes up for the difference. Besides, as the Baltic is frozen several months in the year, the loss of time seems to be more than a compensation for the differences in the price of food.
In pursuance of the instructions that were given to me by your lordships, I made every attempt in my power to ascertain the actual cost of the wheat to the growers of that grain in Prussia. Whoever has made similar attempts in this country, however well he may have been acquainted with all the practical details, even if he could obtain with most scrupulous accuracy the amount of seed sown and harvested, has found them attended with such difficulties, as to afford no great degree of confidence in the results obtained.
Thus, for instance, in our common four years course of turnips, barley, clover and wheat, though it may be easy to ascertain the whole expenditure in rent, taxes, labour, manure, interest of capital, and deterioration in the working cattle and utensils during the four years, yet scarcely any two persons will agree in the apportioning that expenditure to each of the four crops. The relative value of those crops to one another will vary in every year, one will be good, another indifferent, another very bad. The value of the feed to the cattle fed on the produce of the first and
436
It is an easy task, if farming accounts are regularly kept, to ascertain at the end of the four years how much has been gained or lost during the rotation; but the distribution of that loss or gain is subject to so many variations of opinion, and so many vicissitudes depending on situation, soil and weather, as to prevent reliance from being placed on any estimate of the real cost of either one of the descriptions of grain.
The same obstacles will present themselves to the attainment of accuracy, where any other rotation of crops is adopted.
If the difficulty is thus great in attaining, or even approximating to certainty in the cost price of any particular description of corn in this country, it may well be deemed much more bold to hazard an opinion on that subject, in a foreign country, where many circumstances, which can be but imperfectly known to a stranger and temporary visitor, may have a powerful influence.
I received many statements from the different persons with whom I conversed on the subject, as to what they considered to be the actual cost in a number of years, of wheat and other corn. These, as may be supposed, widely varied from each other. Although I was fully convinced that for several years the loss on the mass of agricultural products throughout the maritime provinces of Prussia has been very great; and that, instead of leaving any thing for rent, that has been much more than absorbed, yet I could place no reliance on the accuracy of any statements which attempted to define the exact limits of the loss on each kind of corn.
In founding a calculation on the answers of president Rothe, though I give to that gentleman's facts the most implicit confidence, yet I should hesitate, if he had stated what was the cost price of wheat and rye, to yield to him the same assent; I have no doubt, however, he is accurate in stating, that the loss on the corn grown in the year 1824, without allowing any thing for rent, was 20 per cent. Accord-
437
s
d
s
d
Sale price 3
s
24
0
Loss, estimated at 20 per cent
4
9
28
9
Allowance for rent, calculated at 1/10 of the gross proceeds
2
3
Which would make the cost If to this be added,
31
0
Shipping charge, and merchant's commission or profit
2
9
Freight, primage and insurance to London
8
0
Lighterage, landing charge and commission in England
1
3
43
0
The cost of wheat may be in some degree approximated to, by ascertaining the selling prices for a series of years. If that series be short, it may be affected by various intervening events, such as war, invasion, or deficient harvests; but by being spread over a long series, the effect of adventitious circumstances became lessened. It is reasonable to calculate, that in a long series, the profit on corn cannot be much above that on other branches of industry in the same country. If the profits on raising corn are much above those of other occupations, an increased quantity, to the production of which the augmented capital might contribute, would cause the price to fall; if those profits were much lower, a diminution of supply, to which the loss of capital would contribute, would tend to raise the prices.
Although from the fluctuation in the productiveness of different years, corn is Jess subject to the general abstract principles by which supply and demand, as regards other commodities, are regulated, in a short period; yet, in a long period such as thirty or forty years, or longer, it also must be governed by them.
Without going back to the long list of prices for the last hundred and sixty years, for which, see Appendix No. 24, we may
438
l
s
d
l
s
d
Without placing much reliance on it, yet some corrobation is received, by the market prices of Berlin, for the last eleven years, where the average price of the best Polish wheat has been 1
l
s
d
l
s
d
Although since the return of peace, no alleviation of the public contributions have been applied, and no diminution of the other subjects of expenditure which compose the cost of growing corn, has been experienced, yet the contrast between the first and last five years since that event took place in the prices of corn is so striking, that it deserves to be noticed. In Dantzic the average of the five years, from 1816 to 1820 inclusive, gives for wheat 2
l
s
d
l
439
s
d
l
s
d
l
s
d
The far greater part of that division of ancient Poland which is now comprehended in the viceregal kingdom of that name is a level country, with scarcely an ascent or descent, except where the courses of the rivers have formed channels below the general level of the country. As these rivers, though in summer they appear small streams, are swollen by the rains of autumn, and the melting of the snow on the Carpathian mountains in the spring, they form large channels, extending on both sides to a great distance; and their deposit, in many parts, enriches the land, and it presents in the summer the aspect of verdant and luxuriant meadows. In other parts the periodical swellings of the streams have formed morasses, which, in their present state, are not applicable to any agricultural purposes. The plains, which extend from the borders of one river to another, are open fields, with scarcely any perceptible division of the land, and showing scarcely any trees even around the villages. The portion of woodland on these plains is very extensive; but they are in large masses, with great intervals of arable land between them.
The soil is mostly sandy, with occasional mixture of a sandy loam; it is very thin, resting chiefly on a bed of granite, through which the heavy rains gradually percolate. Such a soil is easily ploughed; sometimes two horses or two oxen, and not unfrequently two cows, perform this and the other operations of husbandry.
This representation of the kingdom of Poland is strictly applicable to six of the eight waiwoodships or provinces into which it is now divided.
To the south of the river Pilica, which comprehends the two provinces of Sandomir and Cracow, the appearance of the land, and the face of the country improve; and, in proceeding south to the banks of the Vistula, there is to be seen a more undulating district and a more tenacious and fruitful soil. Much of the land is a clayey loam, requiring three or four horses to plough it, yielding, when tolerably managed, crops of excellent wheat and oats; and, where the husbandry is so good as to have adopted the practice of sowing clover between the two corn crops, the produce is very abundant.
The southern point of this district, forming now an independent republic,
440
Some of the estates in Poland, belonging to the nobility of the highest rank are of enormous extent; but, owing to the system of dividing the land among all the children, unless a special entail secures a majorat to the eldest son, which is in some few instances the case, much of it is possessed in allotments which we should deem large; but which, on account of their low value, and when compared with those of a few others, are not so. Of these secondary classes of estates, 5 or 6,000 acres would be deemed small and 30 or 40,000 acres large.
There are besides these, numerous small properties, some of a few acres, which, by frequent subdivisions, have descended to younger branches of noble families. The present owners are commonly poor, but too proud to follow any profession but that of a soldier, and prefer to labour in the fields with their own hands rather than to engage in trade of any kind. As titles descended to every son, and are continued through all the successors, the nobility have naturally become very numerous; but since the emperor of Russia has gained the dominion over Poland, the use of titles has been restricted. No one can assume that of baron, unless his clear income from his estates exceed 1,000 gulden, or 25
l
l
l
The whole of the lands are made alienable, and may now be purchased by persons of any rank, and are actually held by some who are burghers or peasants; the Jews alone are prohibited from becoming proprietors of the soil, though they have very numerous mortgages upon it. When they foreclose, the lands must consequently be sold; and, as these Jews, the monied capitalists, cannot become purchasers, the prices they yield are very trifling.
The most numerous class of cultivators are peasants, they have a limited property in the lands which they occupy, and the cottages in which they live, under the condition of working a stipulated number of days in each week, on their lord's demesne, and paying specified quantities of produce, such as poultry, eggs, yarn
441
The extent of these holdings vary, according to the quality of the land, and the quantity of duty work, or of payments in kind, which are to be fulfilled.
On a large property which I examined, the peasants had about forty-eight acres of land each, for which they were bound to work for two days in every week with two oxen. If their labour was further required, they were paid three-pence per day for two other days; and, if beyond that number, sixpence per day: on another property, I found the peasants had about thirty-six acres, for which they worked two days in each week, with two oxen; when called upon for extra labour, they are paid sixpence a day for themselves and oxen for the next two days, or if they work without their oxen, three-pence.
If their labour is demanded the remaining two days in the week, the sum to be paid is made the subject of a special agreement; on one estate the peasants had but twenty-four acres, and did one day's work themselves, with one horse; the rest of their labour was paid for in money, by agreement made at the time it was required. Another proprietor, on land somewhat exhausted, granted to each of his peasants more than fifty acres of land, for which they worked with two horses three days in a week. It would be easy to give instances of more various rates of duty-work, and of the quantity of land which is appropriated for its performance. Some are of a luxurious and of a ludicrous kind. I was told that the inhabitants of two whole villages, near a princely domain, hold their lands on condition of employing a certain number of days in each week, in cleaning the walks, and keeping in good order the pleasure-grounds, which surround the vast castle of their benevolent and hospitable lord.
In general, this peasantry is in a condition of great distress, and involved in debt to their lord. They are no longer slaves, or adstricti glebæ. By the constitution promulgated in 1791, they were declared free, and that part of the constitution suffered no alteration under the dominion of the Russians and Prussians; was confirmed when the king of Saxony became sovereign, and was again assured in 1815, when the emperor of Russia was enthroned as king of Poland.
The practical effects of the privileges
442
A gentleman, with whom I formed are acquaintance, had been compelled to take an estate which was mortgaged to him. He found no peasants on it; the land was neglected, and the buildings delapidated. As no tenant would take it at any rent, he was under the necessity of farming it. To induce peasants to come to him, he granted them a larger portion of land than was customary on that quality of soil, built them houses, supplied them with oxen and implements, sowed the corn of the first year, and fed them till it was fit to be converted into food. By these means, though he was enabled to get his labour performed, yet he assured me it was by persons of the least skill, industry, and sobriety.
The want of peasantry is a general subject of complaint, especially among those (who are far the greater number) whose estates are loaded with mortgages or other incumbrances; such sometimes lose them, but cannot command the means of inducing new ones to settle on the lands.
Though no longer slaves, the condition of the peasants is but little practically improved by the change that has been made in their condition. When a transfer is made, either by testament or conveyance, the persons of the peasantry are not indeed expressly conveyed, but their services are, and in many instances are the most valuable part of the property.
443
It is said, that when the freedom of the peasants was first decreed, it was viewed by them with great distrust. They were alarmed with the apprehension that in age or sickness, or other incapacity, they should be abandoned by their lords, and left to perish in want; by the form that society has taken in the course of the thirty-four years that have passed since the alteration was enacted, their alarms have been dispelled; and the same acts of kindness being exercised in most cases as were formerly customary, they can perceive no alteration in their condition that is either materially more beneficial or injurious to them.
These people live in wooden huts, covered with thatch or shingles, consisting of one room with a stove, around which the inhabitants and their cattle crowd together, and where the most disgusting kinds of filthiness are to be seen. Their common food is cabbage, potatoes sometimes, but not generally, pease, black bread, and soup or rather gruel, without the addition of butter or meat. Their chief drink is water, or the cheap whiskey of the country, which is the only luxury of the peasants; and is drunk, whenever they can obtain it, in enormous quantities. They use much salt with their vegetable food; and, in spite of the heavy tax on that commodity, can never dispense with the want of it at their meals. I was informed, and saw reason to credit the accounts, that when the peasants brought to the market towns their trifling quantities of produce, a part of the money was first used to purchase salt, and the rest spent in whiskey, in a state of intoxication that commonly endured till the exhaustion of the purse had restored them to sobriety. In their houses they have little that merits the name of furniture; and their clothing is coarse, ragged, and filthy, even to disgust.
Very little attention has been paid to their education, and they are generally ignorant, superstitious, and fanatical. They observe about twenty holidays in the year, besides the Sundays; and pass much of their time in pilgrimages to some favourite shrine, in counting beads, and similar superstitious occupations.
This representation of the condition and character of the peasantry, though general, cannot be considered so universal as to admit of no exceptions; some rare instances of perseverance in economy, industry and temperance are to be found;
444
As may be naturally inferred, from the system under which labour is applied to the land, that labour is performed in the most negligent and slovenly manner possible. No manager of a large estate can have his eye constantly on every workman; and, when no advantage is gained by care in the work, it will naturally be very imperfectly executed. All the operations of husbandry struck me to be very ill performed: the ploughing is very shallow and irregular; the harrows with wooden tines do not penetrate sufficient to pull up weeds in fallowing; the roller is almost unknown, and thus the land is filled with weeds of all descriptions. I observed the same want of attention in threshing; and it appeared to me that a much greater proportion of the grain was left among the straw, than in that which has passed under an English flail. In short, the natural, effects of the system of duty-work was visible in the whole of the administration of the large estates where it is followed, with the exception of those few proprietors who have intelligent and active managers, and are free from pecuniary embarrassments.
The common course of cropping is, the old system of a whole year's fallow, followed by winter corn, and that by summer corn, and then a fallow again-. Thus one third of the land bears nothing. The winter crop in the northern part of Poland consists of wheat and rye; the proportion of the latter to the former is nearly as nine to one, and the wheat enjoys the benefit of what little manure is preserved. Thus the wheat actually cultivated does not occupy more than one thirtieth part of the arable land. In the southern part of the kingdom, the wheat bears a larger proportion to the rye, amounting, on the more tenacious soils, to a fifth; and even in some cases, to a fourth part of the rye.
445
The statements I could collect, and my own observations, led me to conclude the stock of cattle to be very small, in proportion to the extent of land, and to the number of inhabitants. The government of Poland has not collected those statistical facts, which are so regularly registered by the Prussian, and some other of the governments of Germany; where they have been collected, as in the case of the population of the year 1817, I believe but little accuracy is to be discovered. I found, in a conversation with one of the ministers, to whose immediate department it belonged, that no great dependence could be placed on the census of that year.
In the absence of a more recent authority, I avail myself of a Prussian document, which shows the numbers of the different kinds of cattle in the provinces of Plock, in Poland, when it was under the dominion of that power. I have no reason to suspect the accuracy of this official statement, or to believe that this province is not equal in live stock to the average of the whole kingdom. I was told there was in the province of Podolachia, a greater number of black cattle, and in the province of Lublin, a greater number of sheep than in Plock; but those provinces were represented to me as deficient in other cattle, the former having fewer sheep, the latter fewer cows.
In the year 1803, the returns from Plock were thus: 45,028 horses and colts; 196,540 oxen, cows, and young cattle; 194,133 sheep and lambs; 95,634 swine.
The extent of this province is nearly one fourth of that of the three maritime provinces of Prussia; and, thinly as those are stocked with cattle in comparison with England, it will be seen, by the following statement, how much they exceed that of the district in question:
—
PRUSSIAN Maritime Provinces.
POLISH Province of Plock.
Acres.
Acres.
Horses and Colts
1 to 42
1 to 106
Oxen, Cows, and Calves
1 to 18
1 to 24
Sheep and Lambs
1 to 10
1 to 24
Swine
1 to 35
1 to 52
If it be considered, that since the year in which the facts exhibited in this statement were collected, the country has suffered severely from being the theatre of war, from three changes of sovereigns,
446
Acres.
1 Cow or Ox to
26¾
1 Sheep or Lamb to
19
1 Horse to
156
1 Pig to
146
No country can be much better adapted for the breeding of sheep than the greater part of the kingdom of Poland. Wherever it is attended to with due skill it is found to be beneficial; but the poverty of the landholders, and their want of knowledge of the advantages to be derived from that kind of live stock, keeps them from devoting their land to their propagation.
A very intelligent physician, a native of Germany, whose acquaintance I had the pleasure to make in Poland, and who devotes the money acquired by his medical practice to the purchase and the cultivation of land, told me that he purchased, four or five years before, a flock of fine-woolled sheep of the Saxon electoral breed; that he had already sold in fleeces and lambs as much as had replaced the whole capital expended, and had at present double the number which he had originally purchased. This striking instance of success, in an experiment in rural economy, is known to most of the cultivators; and yet it has been able to produce such few followers, that I was assured there were yet in Poland only two other flocks of unmixed fine-woolled Merino sheep. This gentleman was one of the first that had cultivated green crops on an extensive scale for feeding sheep; and, though the benefit of it was obvious, both in the produce of the wool, and the increase of the quantity and quality of his corn, it has had but little influence hitherto on the conduct of others, and
447
Of the sheep in Poland, the best are those in the province of Lublin; but they are very far inferior to the breed of Saxony. The cows are a smallish race, and generally kept in bad condition, both as to food and cleanliness. They are for the most part stall-fed; but, from negligence, yield very little butter and no tolerable cheese.
With the exception of a part of the two southernmost provinces, as before noticed, the soil of Poland is of such a thin nature, that where it is moderately farmed it can scarcely be made to bear a medium crop of wheat more frequently than once in nine years. I examined a farm in the province of Lublin, the proprietor of which is in easy circumstances, and possesses several other estates. The extent of this farm is about 5,500 acres. The live stock consisted of sixty milch cows, which are let to a dairyman at about 19
s
On this, which is considered a pattern farm, on which I have reason to believe the increase is greater than on any other in the district, the seed and produce are as follows:—potatoes, about twenty
448
Although this estate is well managed, and no rent is paid for it, I was induced to believe the assurance which was given to me, that it had not yielded any revenue to the proprietor in the last four or five years, in his joint capacity of owner and farmer. He had, however, a distillery, and near it is a village, with some establishments, on a small scale, for making coarse woollen cloths. There is no duty on the whiskey sold in country places; and the supply of that commodity in the neighbourhood, which is rather populous, leaves a profit, though not equal to the interest of the capital invested in the land, the farming stock and utensils, and the erection of the distillery.
I have dwelt the longer on the circumstances of this particular farm, not because it may be considered as showing the average increase on the usual scale of farming, but because the accounts of the receipt and expenditure, both in money and produce, are kept with great regularity. In the generality of farms which are under inferior management, the increase would be found much below the
449
With that description of persons, including the chiefs of several departments of the government, the prevailing opinion was, that the average produce of wheat was not more than fourteen bushels; of rye, ten; of barley, fourteen; of oats and of buck wheat, from eight to ten to the acre. Although the southern parts of Sandomir and Cracow yielded rather more, yet their corn, being celebrated for its excellent quality rather than for its much greater produce, and extending to but a small proportion of the whole even of those provinces, it was not calculated that it would have the effect of raising the average of the whole kingdom, in any sensible degree, above the rate here stated.
Upon this subject, I could have wished to have been enabled to give statistical details, rather than my own estimates, or those of persons better acquainted, than any foreigner can be, with the state of the country. If I had met with any agricultural writings expressly Polish, and had understood the language, I might have gleaned from them some facts to rectify, or to corroborate the estimate of the actual acre-able produce of grain; but as every manager of a farm, that I met with, understands the German language, and obtained whatever knowledge books could give him, from the writers of that nation, there is little inducement to compose works in Polish, on such subjects; and the German authors, though very accurate, and copious, in their statistical reports of their several districts, can know little, and can have no inducement to learn much of the statistical details of Polish agriculture.
The managers of the farms of the
450
Having noticed the two provinces which yielded the best wheat, it may not be useless to observe in addition, that but some small portions of each are highly productive, and those at that extremity of the kingdom which is the furthest removed from the ports in the Baltic, at which alone their corn can be shipped for this country.
I first entered the province of Sandomir from that of Massovia, and went through it, by the towns of Kozience and Granica, till I reached the Vistula, and crossed it at Pulaway. In this route there was nothing in the face of the country, or in the appearance of the crops, to distinguish them from those of the other parts I had noticed. On my way from the province of Lublin, I again entered Sandomir, passing the Vistula at Rachow. Prom that river, for sixty or seventy miles, the fertility, of the land was not sensibly greater than the general appearance of the other provinces. After passing Stobnica, the country vastly improved, and continued good through Nowe-Miastow, Kozyce, and Przecla-wice, till I entered the province of Cracow, at Iwanowice. It is an undulating district, somewhat hilly: the soil, a good brown loamy clay, rather stiff to plough, requiring three, or even sometimes, four horses to work it. The stubbles of wheat were tolerably thick, and proved that the crops must have been good; they were, however, far from clean, and the wheat, having been sowed after a fallow, there would have been more appearance of young clover, if the management had been well conducted. The wheat grown here is that which is known in London by the name of Dantzic white wheat; it is of the most excellent quality, very white and heavy; I did not learn that the average growth was much beyond, if it
451
This tract of country which appeared to me so fertile, and in which I remarked more of the outward signs of comfort, does not, including the territory of the republic, in extent amount to one sixtieth part of the present kingdom of Poland. There is in it, the same suffering from the low prices of produce, and a disposition to invest any capital that can be found, in mining, rather than in cultivating the soil.
The province of Gallicia, a part of the ancient kingdom of Poland, but now added to the dominions of the Austrian empire, which stretches along the right bank of the Vistula, is, I believe, nearly as fertile as the southern part of the present kingdom of Poland, or the territory of the republic of Cracow. I passed through only that portion which lies between the salt mines of Wieliezka, and the frontiers of Moravia. I found by the accounts I obtained at Thorn [see Appendix, No. 193, that very little wheat from that rich and extensive province had been conveyed down the Vistula to the Baltic, though the access to the sea is as easy as from the south parts of the kingdom of Poland, or from Cracow; yet the trade in corn is impeded by transit duties both in Poland and in Prussia. No transit duty is charged in Poland, on the corn of its own growth; and by a treaty of commerce, concluded in the month of March last, with Prussia, the duty at Thorn is reduced to a rate that
452
I believe some of the surplus corn of Gallicia finds a vent by land carriage into the Prussian province of Silesia. It must however be but in small quantities, forming a part of that stated to be exported from Austria [see Appendix, No. 20.]
It was difficult in such a country as Poland to attain to any accuracy on the rent of land; the owners generally occupy themselves their domains, and cultivate them by the hands of their peasants.
The lands of the Crown are differently circumstanced; they comprehend one third of the whole surface, or about tea million acres; somewhat more than two millions of these are woods, which are managed by a department of the government. The remainder is chiefly arable land, and is leased to tenants. The labour of the peasants is a part of that which is leased. The tenants of the Crown are exempt, as well as their peasants, from some taxes, to which all other occupiers of land are subject, and in consequence of it the estates are better stocked with peasants. Hence, as I was assured by the chief of the department, that the peasants on the Crown lands form nearly one fourth of the whole population of the kingdom. To the farmers of these, this must be a great advantage, which but few, and only the richest and most humane lords, can partake with them.
With this freedom from taxation and ample supply of labourers, the lands are let very low; the nominal rent of eight million of acres of land, is stated in the public accounts to be four millions florins, or about ninety-five thousand pounds sterling, or somewhat less than threepence the English acre. In the average are included many acres literally of no value. I was informed, that the land actually under cultivation might be fairly stated to be worth from eight-pence to fourteen-pence per acre. It is however found that the present rent cannot be afforded, that the tenants are falling into arrears, that the hope of recovering some parts must be abandoned; and in other cases, the rent can only be paid in corn.
453
So little land belonging to individuals is let, that it is difficult to form an opinion of what is its actual average annual value. That it is much lower than formerly, I have no doubt.
One instance came under my own observation. The proprietor of a large domain had let a farm, consisting of about seven thousand acres, on a lease, for the usual term of six years, at a rent of eight hundred and fifty pounds. That lease had expired just before I visited the place. The tenant had lost a great deal of his property, and the peasants had diminished in number; and a new lease had been taken by the same tenant, for no other could be found, at the rate of one hundred and seventy pounds.
I knew of one farm of about four thousand acres, let on a lease for six years, about four years ago, for one hundred and eighty pounds. The proprietor of it assured me, that though he received his rent regularly, he was convinced the tenant paid the whole of it out of his capital, and was only enabled to maintain his engagements from having other pursuits which were profitable. This estate is not more than twelve miles from Warsaw, and has an excellent road to within one mile of it.
Another instance of an estate recently let on lease, was related to me by the gentleman who had engaged to take it. It consists of about two thousand three hundred English acres: two-sevenths of it is water-meadow, on the banks of the Vistula, producing good hay; about three hundred acres are woodland, and the rest arable. There is a castle or capital mansion on it, which I believe was the chief motive for taking it. The rent agreed for was about ninety-five pounds a year. The lessee, who is engaged in other pursuits, told me he should try the experiment of working the land by hired annual
454
These two last instances appeared to me to be exceptions to the general rate of value of rented land; and I should rather estimate the average to be much nearer that price at which the lands of the government are let. There is, in fact, scarcely any of that class of capitalists, as is familiar to us in England by the term farmer. The state of society is totally different.
Among the real Poles, there is no regular gradation of ranks between the noble proprietor and the wretched peasantry. There may be, and visibly are, differences in the condition of the peasantry, depending on the personal character of their lords, and upon the more or less embarrassed state of the property on which they may be settled. There is also a difference between the landed proprietors, owing to the different degrees of activity, economy, and attention that they exercise; but there is not a middle class of Poles. The Polish gentry are too proud to follow any course but the military career; and the government, by its large standing army, encourages the feeling, though the pay is scarcely sufficient to supply the officers with their expensive uniforms. The church has too few prizes among many thousand blanks, to induce any but the lower classes to enter on that profession. The offices of government can employ but few, and those are ill paid, and said to depend on small peculations, rather than on their salaries. Whatever difficulties may present themselves to the placing out young men of good family, none have had recourse to commerce; and, if they had, such would be treated by others as having lost their caste, and descended to a lower rank of society. The manufacturers and the artisans in Poland are almost all of the German nation. If a joiner, painter, mason, tailor, shoemaker, or a person of other similar occupations, including, too, the medical profession, is wanted, he will commonly be found only among the Germans. The merchants, bankers, and traders, are nearly as exclusively of the Jewish race, and that too of all classes from the importer of wines and colonia produce, to the dealers in rags and ok
455
Examples have been recently set by some individuals of the first families and wealth, of establishing manufactories, by forming colonies, with a view of raising a race of consumers on their domains, among whom a vent may be created for the productions of the soil; but they have in almost every instance, employed foreigners to conduct their concerns, and to perform all the work above the lowest kinds of drudsery. The Germans look too earnestly forward to a return to their own country with the money they acquire, to invest it in cultivation; and the Jews are not disposed to engage in agricultural, or in any pursuits or occupations in which their shrewdness in making bargains would be of less avail than the practice of hard labour and the most rigid economy.
When estates are sold, the timber, houses, and barns are not subjects of a separate valuation, but are included in one sum in the purchase. The buildings on estates are, of necessity, more numerous and more extensive than are required in this country. From the indolent manner in which all labour is performed, a greater number of cottages is indispensable for the workmen. The corn is seldom or never formed in stacks in the open air, but is housed in barns, and the same is the case with the hay. The snow is so deep in the winter, that there is no food for cattle to be found in the fields; and such is the severity of the cold, that it is indispensable to build houses large enough to contain the whole herds of cattle, and the whole flocks of sheep. Besides the severity of the climate, the number of wolves is so great, and, in spite of all excitement by the government to destroy them, is so fast increasing, that no cattle can be left in the fields, in the winter. These animals range the country in bodies of from four to fourteen; and, when pressed by hunger, will attack any of the domesticated animals; and, indeed, no winter passes without several human beings, particularly children, falling a sacrifice to their voracity. Instances, it is said, are not uncommon of wolves undermining the foundation of sheep-houses to get at their prey.
456
From these circumstances, the relative expense of building on estates, compared to the value of the mere land, in spite of the low price of timber, of which those buildings are chiefly constructed, is greater than with us.
An estimate was made by a person eminently skilled in the value of land, who formed it upon actual sales made in the last four years. He divided it into three classes, according to their fertility. The lowest land in a state of cultivation, with good buildings and a competent number of peasants, he stated to be worth one thousand florins the huff. Valuing the florins at sixpence, though worth a fraction less, and taking the huff of thirty Magdeburg morgens, as equal to twenty-two English acres, the estimate would be a fraction less than twenty-two shillings sterling the English acre. The other kinds of arable land of superior qualities: vary. The great mass is of the second class, or worth about thirty shillings; but some is estimated at five thousand florins the huff, or five pounds ten shillings; but little, however, is in this class, and that little is in the vicinity of the cities, on the banks of the great rivers, or in some favoured spots in the southern provinces. This estimate was rather founded on the slate of affairs three or four years ago, I than on their present condition; for I was told that such a number of estates had lately been offered for sale, that no price could be obtained for the greater part. All the inquiries I was enabled to make, in various parts of the country, led me to the belief, that the estimation here stated was, in the main, as correct as could be expected to be framed.
The Jews are almost exclusively the dealers in money. They are precluded from becoming lauded proprietors, and their exclusion from the market tends to depress the prices in a very great degree. Though some of the richer individuals of that people pass through the ceremony of baptism, especially when they have mortgages on large estates, and mean to foreclose; the whole number of those who thus become qualified to purchase, bears but a small proportion to that of the properties that are offered for sale. I was assured from so many, and such various quarters, that I have no reason to doubt of the report, that almost every estate is deeply involved in debt. The fact is so notorious, that few proprietors feel any delicacy in acknowledging themselves to
457
Among the mortgagees, the king of Prussia, and some of his monied subjects are by far the greatest, in that part of Poland which was included in his dominions, till Poland was erected into, a grand duchy by Buonaparte, under the government of the king of Saxony. It had long been the practice of the court of Berlin to assist agriculture, by loans to the proprietors of estates. This practice began under Frederick the Great, and was continued to the disastrous period that followed the battle of Jena. This assistance was extensively afforded to the newly-acquired subjects of the part of Poland which, in the division of that un-fortunate country, fell to the share of Prussia. Though the king of Prussia has lost the government, his claims, and those of his subjects, on the individuals indebted to them, have been recognized; and though in many instances the interest has gone on increasing, the claims have not been rigidly enforced. It was rumoured in Warsaw, but not on any authority, that the emperor Alexander, in his character of king of Poland, was negociating a treaty with the court of Berlin, which had for its object the relief of the Poles, by purchasing the claims of the Prussians, and assuming the debts to himself.
The amount of the claims of Prussia was stated to me to be two millions of Prussian dollars, or three hundred thousand pounds sterling, secured on various estates extending over near fifteen hundred thousand acres.
A more numerous class of mortgages comprises the corporations of cities and towns, the trustees of hospitals, schools, colleges, monasteries, convents and charitable institutions; whatever capitals these may possess is lent on land, and the difficulty of obtaining the interest as it accrues, and in some instances of getting any, causes those establishments to languish and decrease in their capacity to relieve distress.
Family settlements are mostly made on the security of land; for a long period there was no other means of making provision for the young and the helpless; and in the flourishing periods of agricul-
458
The Jews, with all their characteristic shrewdness and sagacity, have become, in many instances, from mere necessity, mortgagees. When the debts of proprietors accumulated, and the price of produce fell, the monied men were often induced to secure themselves, as well as they could, by accepting of mortgages, where no payment could be obtained.
The representation here given is abundantly confirmed by the proceedings adopted in the Diet when assembled in May last. The two houses, consisting almost exclusively of landed proprietors, settled a plan to administer relief, which received the emperor's sanction.
A National Bank is to be established, in which landowners who are in debt, whether on mortgage or on simple contracts, may deposit a schedule of their estates, and a valuation of them: this valuation is to be made by themselves, and it is calculated it will not be made too high, because, as the present land-tax is collected on the income, and future imposts are to be levied according to this valuation, few will be induced to give in more than the true value. On the valuation, an annual interest is to be paid to the Bank, at the rate of six per cent, for twenty-eight years. This is to be considered as interest at the rate of four percent; and two per cent is to form the means of discharging, by compound interest, the principal in twenty-eight years. The Bank, on receiving the documents, is to deliver to the proprietors its debentures or certificates; which, twenty per cent being deducted from them, they are made a legal tender for the payment of all debts; and on which four per cent interest is to be paid by the Bank. When the instalment of the first year is paid, the two per cent is to be divided among all the holders of the Bank debentures, by a lottery. The drawers of the fortunate numbers will then be paid in full. The others will receive their interest, at the rate of four per cent, till their numbers are drawn prizes, some of which must, of course, wait till the expiration of the twenty-eighth year; at which period, upon this plan, if it should work well, all the debts will be liquidated.
459
I have only noticed this project as a corroboration of the accounts collected of the general state of embarrassment in which the landowners in Poland are involved. It may, however, be remarked, that the assumption of the proprietors being able, in their united capacity of landlord and tenant, to live on their estates, and have a surplus of six per cent on their value, is quite gratuitous, and founded on a rate of prices for produce which of late years has not been nearly realized. It leaves, too, an opening to fraud in the power of desperate proprietors, who may neglect the amount of future imposts for the sake of temporary relief. In fixing the rate of interest so low as four percent, this project sacrifices the interests of the creditors to those of the debtors; for money is worth much higher interest on the best of all securities.
The bankers of Warsaw discount their own acceptances at the rate of half per cent per month. There are but few bills, it is true, drawn on them; but, when accepted, they become to the acceptors a secure mode of making interest of their capital. The number of bills drawn in Warsaw is few, and the amount small; but the rate of interest on them may be considered as the best criterion of the actual worth of the use of money, when no risk is incurred. The bankers are said to find the most advantageous employment for their capitals in speculations in Russian and Austrian funds.
The interest of money in Poland, as elsewhere, varies much, according to the necessity of the borrower, and the greediness or suspicions of the lender, as well as the nature of the security that is offered. The Jews lend small sums frequently at two per cent per month; any sum may be easily lent at ten per cent per annum on the security of jewels, plate and other valuables; but this lending is viewed with distrust by monied men. When the interest becomes due, if it is not paid, recourse must be had to the courts of law; and a judgment must be obtained before the articles pledged can be sold. The suit may be protracted for several years, whilst the high interest is accumulating; and, at the period of decision, the sum originally lent, with the interest upon it, may amount to more than the value of the pledge.
In Poland I was forcibly impressed, by remarking how much the actual use of
460
No paper, or any other substitute for metallic money, circulates in the country; and the value in specie of every commodity that is produced at home, is very low, and the productions of foreign countries, exclusive of the taxes that are imposed, very high.
Cows are of various races, and, I think, differ more in their value than in any country I have ever visited. The common breed of the country are worth about 27
s
s
l
l
s
s
s
d
s
s
s
The corn spirit, or whiskey, is sold in the country at 10
d
s
s
d
s
s
There are few burthens laid exclusively on the land, except the tenth Groschen tax. That was originally a war tax, and is so still denominated, though continued after ten years of a peace, and there exists no present probability of its being speedily withdrawn. A small sum is levied in each district for the repairs of roads, bridges, and other local purposes; but that and the land-tax scarcely ex-
461
The tithes are very moderate, and chiefly compounded for at fixed rates, which can never be altered without the consent of the owner. Under one of their monarchs, the clergy were called upon to pay contributions to the state, at a rate which they gave as the annual value of their livings; and, upon these valuations, compositions have been settled. As the patron, with the consent of the archbishop (a consent seldom withheld), can remove an incumbent, they are necessarily too dependent to enter into contests about tithes. The secular parochial clergy are commonly men of slight education, usually the sons of peasants, to whom the somewhat elevated character of priest, with its small emoluments and freedom from hard labour, forms a sufficient inducement to enter on the ecclesiastical profession. I was told, but cannot vouch for its accuracy, or for the extent to which it may be carried, that since the Jews have been prohibited from keeping public-houses, the parochial priests have become in the villages the chief retailers of whiskey, and thereby increase their otherwise scanty incomes.
The other taxes fall no more on the landed interest than on other classes of the community. They are chiefly on consumption; that on beer forms a part, and is collected by a monopoly let to farm by the government, to brewers. All foreign commodities, such as sugar, coffee and wine, have heavy duties imposed. These are collected from all the consumers of them; and few of the agriculturists can at present afford to purchase such luxuries, but must be content with honey, dried chicory roots and whiskey, as substitutes for them.
The whole revenue, according to the statements of official men, does not exceed two millions sterling. As one fourth of the population, the tenants and peasants of the Crown, are exempted from paying the tenth Groschen tax, the heaviest of all the imposts; the sum extracted from the rest of the subjects, amounts to 15
s
The revenues do not pay the expenses of the government, but the deficiency is made up by remittances from Petersburgh, which usually amount to 4,000,000 silver
462
Of late years the attention of the government, of those private nobles who have adequate means, and of the richer Jews, has been drawn to manufacturing. The very low rate of all mere manual labour, the extensive market of the vast Russian dominions being opened to the Poles, and the cheapness of raw products, have contributed to the establishment of numerous but not large undertakings, which, as far as I could form a judgment, promised to be beneficial to the individuals concerned in them.
I was assured by two noblemen at the head of different departments of the executive government, that within the last six years more than 250,000 foreigners, chiefly Germans and almost all manufacturers, had emigrated from their own country and established themselves in Poland. They have some privileges in regard to taxation. Those of them who are Protestants are supplied with churches and ministers, at the expense of the government, though on a low scale; and they are, for a prescribed period, free from the military conscription.
The cloth made from the native wool is coarse, and may not be very neatly fabricated; but as it reaches the markets of Russia without any impost, and enters into competition there with goods manufactured in England, the Netherlands, and Germany, which are subject to high duties and the expenses of conveyance,—it can be sold at correspondent low prices. These manufacturing establishments are, for the most part, on a small scale; but some of them of a higher class, for making finer cloths, have imported machinery of various kinds from England, or have copied it
463
I did not hear of any other goods than woollen cloths made for distant markets; but of late establishments have been formed for making linens, cottons, iron wares and paper, solely for domestic consumption, and chiefly by the aid of capitals to which the government has contributed.
The project which was the chief favourite when I was in Poland, was the working of mines. It had been brought under the immediate attention of the government, by an offer from a joint-stock company formed in England, to take the mines on lease for a term of years. Though the proposal was not accepted, it produced an excitement both on the ministers and on private individuals, and became the general topic of discussion. The mines have hitherto been worked but to a small extent, barely sufficient iron being extracted to supply the scanty domestic demand. The iron is said to be of an excellent quality, the ore capable of being raised but with little labour, and the mines situated in the districts where both coals and wood are abundant.
Besides the mines of iron and coal, there are others hitherto slightly worked, of calamine and copper. The attention awakened by the English proposal has not yet had time to produce any actual effects on the part of the government. From the state of the finances nothing can be undertaken till the consent of the cabinet at St. Petersburgh is obtained. In the mean time several Poles have arrived in this country on a mission from the ministers at Warsaw, to examine the machinery used for diminishing labour in our mines, and to acquire the knowledge of the most improved methods practised here for separating the metals from the ore. One individual, too, who has mines of calamine and coals, with whom I became acquainted at Cracow, has resolved to visit the mining districts of England early in the next spring, to learn the most economical modes of conducting his operations. The low prices of food and of
464
My efforts to make computations of the cost price of wheat were as little satisfactory to myself in Poland as in Prussia. The same difficulties presented themselves, and the same doubts attach to every attempt at accuracy. As may be seen by the estate at Pulaway, in the province of Lublin, the book-keeping on the large estates is well conducted, but not in such a manner as to distinguish the cost of one kind of corn from that of another, or even to distinguish the cost of all the corn from that of the general mass of productions. Any calculation in Poland, as in other countries, can be but an approximation to accuracy, and must be received with hesitation, however high may be the authority, or however abundant the means of information, of the persons making it. In a conversation with count Mostoski, the enlightened minister of finance, whilst viewing his farm near Warsaw, he stated, as the result of his calculations, that the cost price in that neighbourhood was double as much as it was selling for at that time, which was indeed at considerably less than half of the average price it had borne in past periods for a series of years; that during those periods, the benefit on its cultivation had been somewhat less than the profit on the other branches of industry; or that, in the double capacity of landland and farmer, the annual gain to the cultivator had not been equal to that derived from the same amount of capital employed in any other way.
On referring to the prices of Warsaw [see Appendix, No. 21 and 22], it will be seen, that for a period of twenty-four years, from June 1796 to June 1820, the average of the period was 33
s
s
s
d
It is highly improbable, that if the cost price of wheat had not been tolerably near to the selling price, efforts would not have been strenuously directed to augment the
465
s
The view taken by count Mostoski was confirmed also by prince Lubetski, another of the ministers, who is a cultivator of his own estates, and has officially paid attention to a subject, which has become of the highest importance, to every public officer, and every landed proprietor.
It is worthy of remark, that the present burthens on the land are quite as great as existed during any period of the twenty-four years whose prices are quoted; and that the heaviest of these burthens, the tenth Groschen tax, was not collected in the earlier years of the series. It was originally a war tax, but (as before stated) has been continued through the ten years that have passed since the peace was concluded. The expenses of cultivation have been undoubtedly somewhat reduced with the reduction of the selling prices of the produce; thus the cost of seed, and of the food of working cattle, if valued in money, would appear to be less, but they can scarcely affect the cultivator, who raises them, and consumes them, as he only can derive a profit or incur a loss according to the high or low price of that surplus quantity which he sells at market.
I am disposed, under all circumstances of the case, to pay much attention to the estimations I have related, which were also corroborated by the opinions of most of the cultivators with whom I conversed. With as much confidence as can be felt on a subject which no investigation could have made very clear, I should suppose the cost of wheat in the province of Massovia, to have been nearly between twenty-seven and twenty-nine shillings the quarter, for the last thirty years. Assuming that the cost price of wheat was at the medium, between the points to which in its fluctuations it had approached, we may calculate the cost in England thus:—
s
d
Cost of the quarter of wheat at Warsaw
28
0
Conveyance to the boats, and charges for loading and stowing, and securing it by mats
0
6
466
Freight to Dantzic
5
0
Loss on the passage, by pilfering, and by rain causing it to grow
3
0
Expenses at Dantzic, in turning, drying, screening and warehousing, and loss of measure
2
0
Profit or commission, as the case may be, to the merchant at Dantzic
1
6
Freight, primage, insurance and shipping charges at Dantzic and in London
8
0
48
0
In ascending the Vistula, beyond Warsaw, as the quality of the grain improves, the expenses on the conveyance of it to the mouths of that river increase also.
I could have wished at Cracow to have obtained the prices for a longer series of years than are to be found in the Appendix No. 23. Before the time with which that account begins, that part of Poland had used as the medium of exchange the depreciated paper money of Austria; and I had no scale by which to measure the variations, at different periods, between that currency and the silver money, which has been since the sole medium for the exchange of commodities. An account, therefore, for an earlier series of years, would have produced only perplexity and uncertainty; the verbal information I obtained was, in general terms, that there had been no fluctuations in the price of corn, before the return of peace, nearly approaching to those which have been experienced since that event. I was told by one merchant, that the price for many years of the war, had generally been between 24
s
s
The account obtained at Cracow [see Appendix, No. 23], shows that for ten years and two half-years, the average price of wheat was 25
s
d
s.,
s
d
s
If, in the absence of better data, it be assumed, that the selling price of wheat near Cracow, has been fur a series of years at 25
s
s
d
467
s
d
Cost of wheat at Cracow
22
6
Conveyance to boats, loading, &c
0
6
Freight to Dantzic
7
6
Loss by pilfering, and damage from wet
3
6
Expenses at Dantzic, as in the former estimate
2
0
Profit or commission, as before
1
6
Freight, &c. to London
8
0
45
6
Some allowance should be made for risk beyond insurance, as corn is covered by the underwriters only in the stranding of the ship, and in the loss which may be to be paid when there is a general average. In both the statements of the expenses of conveyance, the rate of freight on the river Vistula to Dantzic, as well as that by sea from Dantzic to London, is stated at the present price, when there are scarcely any operations of that kind carrying on. During the demand of 3802, 1803, and 1804, and in 1817, I have been told the freight from beyond Warsaw was 10
s
s
d
s
If, from any circumstances, a demand should be created for as much wheat as is consumed in England in six days, it would raise the price of freightage on the river, probably thirty or forty per cent, and half of that proportion in the sea freight from Dantzic to this country. If that demand should extend to twelve days supply, it would exhaust the whole stock of wheat, fit for our market, and cause it to advance in a much greater degree than the shipping of such a limited quantity in any former period has witnessed.
In stating the several expenses incurred in the conveyance of wheat from Warsaw to Dantzic at 10
s
d
s
d
s
d
468
Comparative view of the prices Of wheat, in the several years enumerated, in Cracow, Warsaw, and Dantzic:—
YEARS.
Price at Cracow.
Price at Warsaw.
Price at Dantzic.
Average of 1796, 1797, 1798 and 1799 together
24/10
41/9
Average of 1803, 1804, 1805 and 1806 together
38/4
57/3
Average of 1815, 1816, 1817 and 1818 together
35/8
42/4
60/4
Average of 1821, 1822, 1823 and 1824 together
18/2
21/2
26/10
It will be seen by this contrast, that in the years from 1796 to 1799, when the exports by sea from Dantzic and Elbing were 1,493,480 quarters, the expenses of conveyance, from Warsaw to the port of shipment, with the profit or commission of the merchants, was 16
s
d
s
d
Since the great decline of prices, which began in 1819, it appears that the average prices at Dantzic, are so near to those at Cracow and Warsaw, that the rate of freight which has been actually paid, is greater than the differences between them. In the four years from 1821 to 1824, when the whole quantity shipped from Dantzic and Elbing, has been no more than 299,000 quarters, the difference in price between Iracow and Dantzic has been only 8
s
d
s
d
According to several representations which I received, and which cannot be materially erroneous, the quantity of wheat raised in the interior of Poland has been gradually lessening, but with much more rapidity since 1819, than before that period. During the years 1821, 1822, and 1823, very little wheat passed down the Vistula, as appears by the accounts obtained at Thorn. By the official accounts, the whole in the three years was only 83,606 quarters; the growers being then induced to withhold from shipping, as long as their necessities would allow. In the year 1824, the pressing demands of creditors and mortgagees forced the holders to sell, and in consequence of it, there was sent down in that year, 93,968 quarters. The pressure of distress still continuing, and the harvest of 1824 being very good, there was forwarded in 1825, by the commence-
469
These two last years exports had completely drained Poland; and, hence when I was there, before any of the new wheat had appeared at market, the price, for what little was wanted, had rather advanced. I was informed by more than one merchant, that if 10,000 quarters had been required, there was so little left in the country, that it could be collected with difficulty; and that the knowledge of such demand would cause the price to be doubled. In the mean time the stocks at Dantzic and Elbing had been accumulating, in spite of the comparatively small quantities which had been brought down the Vistula.
At the end of 1818, there only remained in store in those cities 92,279 quarters, [see Appendix, No. 13]. In the following seven years, up to August 1825, the quantities which paid duties at Thorn, were
Quarters.
From Russia
366,648
—Austria
17,343
—Poland
621,119
1,005,110
During the same seven years, the exports from the two ports, were
824,622
leaving
180,488
To this is added the stock at the end of 1818, as above
92,279
272,767
It appears, however, that the stocks really in store in the two places in August last, amounted to about 350,000 quarters, and therefore there must have been exported, or be in store, about 80,000 quarters of wheat, of the growth of Prussia, in the seven years under consideration.
Poland, and probably the Russian provinces, which once were parts of Poland, though drained of their whole stock of wheat, have not, in seven years, caused an accumulation at the exporting cities, of more than about one-tenth of what was shipped from them in the seven years, from 1800 to 1806. Those stocks are, however, higher than appears to have been left on hand at the end of the former years, and hence it may have arisen, that the prices have been reduced far below what it has cost the holders, though they have bought from the growers at rates to discourage the farther cultivation of wheat.
470
The abandonment of a losing business is most likely to begin at the fountain head, and the effect of that abandonment will be first experienced by a rise of price at the spot where the depreciated commodity is produced. This seems to be the case in Poland, and this may naturally account for the prices of corn at Cracow and Warsaw, being higher with the addition of freight and the other charges, than at Dantzic and Elbing.
It has been frequently remarked, that the exportation of corn from any country, if long continued, must tend to exhaust the soil, unless some articles, capable of becoming converted into manure, are introduced to compensate for the injury. Many parts of the north of Africa, and of Asia Minor, which formerly supplied large quantities of corn to Europe, have since become deserts. Perhaps one of the chief causes of the progress we have made in agriculture, and of the superior productiveness of our fields, has arisen from our exporting but few, and importing many of those articles which are capable, when decomposed, of becoming manure, and being applied to renovate the soil, as much or more as it is exhausted by cropping.
From Poland, for nearly two centuries, according to the Document in Appendix, No. 24, the exports of corn have been very large, whilst, on the other hand, nothing has been imported, deserving of notice, which could be converted into nutriment to the soil.
The system of rotation by which two crops of corn are raised in succession, and nothing is administered to refresh the land but a fallow, would exhaust the best soil with which we are acquainted.
In every part of my journey through Poland, the impression communicated, in looking at the fields, whether with growing crops, in stubble, or under the operations of the plough, was, that they were approaching to a state of exhaustion from excessive cropping.
This view, which the rotation of crops, and the face of the country suggests, is confirmed by the statistical facts, which show that its power of supplying the wants of other countries is greatly diminished. The return of peace, after more than twenty years of extensive warfare, is commonly supposed to have increased the productions of the soil, and to be the cause of the depreciation of prices, which has been the general subject of complaint
471
On comparing the surplus quantity of bread corn which Poland has exported in a series of the same number of years, we shall see what has been the falling off.
In the eleven years [see Appendix, No. 15], beginning with 1795, and ending with 1805, the exports of wheat from the mouths of the Vistula, were 5,059,163 quarters, or 438,263 a year, on the average of the period. In the eleven years, beginning in 1815, and ending with 1825, the exports from the same ports were 1,669,027 quarters, or on the average of the period, 151,729 quarters per year. In the latter period indeed 78,265 barrels of flour were exported, supposing them to be all wheaten flour, it will increase the quantity 39,132 quarters, reckoning that two barrels are the produce of one quarter of wheat. In the first of these two series of years, the rye shipped at the same ports was 1,680,096 quarters; and that in the last series only 456,192 quarters.
The periods here contrasted were both seasons of general tranquillity, except that, during the first part of them, the opposition of Kosciusco and his partisans to the last dismemberment of Poland, caused partial and temporary disturbances; but they do not appear to have affected the quantity of its agricultural products.
It is true, that in the first series, there were in England two or three deficient harvests, and in the last series but one; the effect of that one was to raise prices so high as to induce the export of the whole that could be got away. Had there been more grown, it would have been eagerly exported; and we find at the end of the year 1818, the stock, both at Dantzic and Elbing, was only 96,900 quarters. Though we imported in the year 1818 from all parts of the world a greater quantity of wheat than in any former year, yet much less of that was shipped from the ports by which the corn conveyed down the Vistula is exported. The three years of our greatest importation, as appears by accounts laid before the House of Commons, have been 1802, 1810, and 1818; in the first of those, the exports from Dantzic and Elbing were 680,494
472
If we calculate that the consumption of wheat in Great Britain is one quarter for each person for food, and about a seventh part more for seed and minor purposes, it will appear that in the first of the series we have been comparing, the quantity of wheat exported from Dantzic and Elbing would, with the then amount of our population, 11,000,000, be equal to twelve days consumption. In fact however, out of the 5,059,163 quarters of wheat, which Dantzic exported, 1,300,014 were dispatched to other countries. As we have only the gross exports from Elbing, without distinguishing what was sent to Great Britain, from what was sent elsewhere, it may not be incorrect to assume, that one-fourth as from Dantzic was not sent to our markets, and then there will be a further reduction of 299,205 quarters. This will leave the whole quantity really furnished to us in the eleven years 3,459,944 quarters, or an annual quantity of 314,540 quarters, being equal to about nine days of our consumption.
At the second series our population had advanced as numbered in 1821, the middle year of that series, to 14,000,000. The quantity of wheat sent to us from the Vistula had declined, and, during the eleven years, had been 1,252,271 quarters, or 113,842 annually. This would be equal to the whole of our consumption for betwixt two and three days.
In the Appendix, No. 24, is shown the whole export of corn from Dantzic, for the last 166 years. By those tables, it appears that the wheat exported from that city, during that long period, was 19,581,947 quarters, or 117,963 quarters on the annual average of the period. In fact, the whole that Dantzic has exported in 166 years is not equal to the consumption of this kingdom, with its present population, for more than fifteen or sixteen months. The annual importation would not now amount to two days and three quarters consumption.
It appears by the official account of the duties paid at Thorn, on wheat descending the Vistula [see Appendix No. 19], that a very large proportion comes out of territories now forming an
473
The provinces from which the best, and most of the wheat is transmitted, are Volhynia and Podolia, which were seized by Russia, in the division of Poland in 1796, and are now distinct provincial governments, retaining their ancient names and usages.
Volhynia is represented to be a district of extraordinary fecundity. The pastures are said to be luxuriant, the grass growing so high as almost to hide the cattle, and yielding the richest nourishment to them. The corn is said to increase in common years ten-fold, in spite of bad agriculture; and a failure, or very deficient harvest, does not occur two or three times in a century.
On referring, however, to the official harvest returns of the Russian empire, as quoted in the Erdebeschreibung of Hassel, a German work of the highest authority, it will be seen that, in this province, the increase of grain in the year 1802 was very little more than four times the quantity sown.
The Russian tschewert, being reduced into English quarters, reckoning the tschewert at two-thirds of the quarter, the following result appears:—
Quarters.
Sowed
Winter Corn
322,456
Ditto
Summer ditto
313,244
635,700
Harvested
Winter Corn
1,349,522
Ditto
Summer ditto
1,277,310
2,626,832
Used for Seed, for the next year
Winter Corn
327,804
Summer ditto
316,996
644,800
There consequently remained, of Winter Corn
1,021,718
Summer ditto
960,314
1,982,032
Of which
1,431,566
were consumed within the province; and
550,466
474
Podolia, like Volhynia, is represented as highly fertile; and, by the official accounts extracted from the statistical writer before quoted, appears to present, in the year referred to already, a greater rate of increase in the seed that has been sown, than Volhynia. Being to the south of Volhynia, it is still more easy of access to the Black Sea than that province, and further removed from commmunication with England through Dantzic. It however deserves to be remarked, that the navigation of the Bug and the Vistula is better than that of the Dniester, because the latter river has many shallows and rapids, and some dangerous falls. The passage of the surplus wheat will be hence determined on by the state of the markets at Dantzic and Odessa. The access to both those markets is so difficult, that only when a scarcity in some part of Europe raises the price to an unusual height, is any considerable quantity attempted to be transported
When the corn is cut it is left a long time in sheaves in the fields till it can be threshed, or rather trodden out with oxen and horses. When the separation from the straw and chaff is effected, the grain is preserved in excavations in the earth, till it is either called forth by high prices, or, which frequently happens, till it is destroyed by corn-worms, or other insects. It appears from the official accounts that in the year 1802, the following were the results of the cultivation of corn:
Quarters.
Sowed
Winter Corn
293,183
Ditto
Summer ditto
351,620
644,803
Harvested
Winter Corn
1,640,271
Dittto
Summer ditto
1,427,575
3,067,846
475
Used for Seed for the next year
Winter Corn
297,254
Summer ditto
358,476
655,730
There consequently remained
Summer Corn
1,343,017
Winter ditto
1,069,099
2,412,116
Of which
1,172,211
were consumed within the province, and
1,239,905
The only other province in Russia, which conveys its corn to market by the Vistula, is Byaly stock. It was formerly a part of Poland, and the inhabitants still generally speak the language of that country. The chief corn raised for bread is rye, but a small portion of that grain, as well as of some very indifferent wheat, finds a passage by the river Bug into the Vistula. The best of the land is appropriated to the growth of flax, hemp and linseed, or to breeding of cattle. The whole surplus of wheat, which must be small, cannot be distinguished in the returns, from that stated generally to come from Russia.
There are two other of the Russian provinces whose surplus corn finds a vent through the territory of Prussia. The south-west part of Wilna, formerly Lithuania, has the navigable river Niemen for its boundary, by which the corn is conveyed to Memel. Its produce is but small in proportion to its population; and, by the official accounts, the increase appears to be less than in the other provinces. In 1802 the sowing and reaping is thus stated:—
Quarters.
Sowed
Winter Corn
530,245
Ditto
Summer ditto
315,798
846,043
Harvested
Winter Corn
2,099,324
Ditto
Summer ditto
1,220,466
3,319,790
476
The province of Grodno, which also has access to the sea by the Niemen, appears to be so nearly equal in fertility to that of Wilna, that a return of the sowing and harvesting of the same year, give results differing only by a small fraction.
The terms of distinction, winter corn and summer corn, instead of Autumn and Spring corn, which we use, are descriptive of the climate. The violent heats and severe colds, succeed each other with so much rapidity, that they scarcely leave any interval for Spring or Autumn.
The only accounts I was able to procure of the quantities of corn brought by the Niemen, comprehends merely the three years 1816, 1817, and 1818. No others were to be found in the office of the minister for internal affairs at Berlin, and I did not go to Schmalleninken, where the transit duty is collected. The year 1816 was one of moderate production and demand, till after the state of the harvest was known, when it was too late in the season for the navigation of these northern rivers. The trade of that year may therefore be considered a fair average, and likely to produce annually 10,000 quarters of wheat, and about 40,000 quarters of other corn, chiefly rye. The two following years, when the exportation was excessive, produced but 38,700 quarters of wheat, and 276,000 quarters of other grain.
From some parts of the two provinces of Wilna and Grodno, the communication by the Duna to Riga is easier than by the Niemen to Memel; and it is hence probable that the largest share of their produce in corn, finds a market in that direction. It is shown by the returns from Riga [see Appendix, No. 8], that in the last twelve years, the exportation of wheat from that port has only been 256,658 quarters, or on the average of the period, 21,381 quarters annually; that of rye, has been 1,618,000, or on an average, 134,822 per year; and that of both kinds of grain, the exportation in the two years 1817 and 1818, exceeded that of the other ten years.
Although the route by which I returned from Poland was through countries which have no direct influence on the corn trade of England, yet as remotely connected with countries that do affect it, it may not be improper to add a few of the obser-
477
The Austrian province of Moravia is very fertile, and, with the exception of some districts of the Netherlands, scarcely any part of the Continent is so well cultivated. It bears, too, a larger proportion of wheat than in other districts in the East of Europe. Of the winter corn, wheat is estimated at one-fourth, and rye three-fourths; whereas in the adjoining province of Silesia, the land sown with rye is nearly ten times that sown with wheat. Moravia is defended by the Carpathian mountains from the east winds; and the harvest, the whole way from Teschen to Olmutz, and indeed to Brunn, is nearly six weeks earlier than in Silesia. I certainly heard complaints of the distressed state of agriculture there, but less of it, and I think with less reason, than in any other part.
Wheat, at Olmutz, was selling for 20
s
s
s
d
This better state of things arose from the circumstance of Moravian agriculture finding domestic consumers. It is the chief manufacturing province of the Austrian empire. A greater proportion of the population can afford to live on meat and to use wheaten flour; and hence the agriculturists find a market near home for their productions. The demand for animal food, too, being greater, a greater stock of cattle is kept, more of the land is destined to clover and other green crops; and I should judge from their flourishing apperance, that, like England, the growth of corn does not exhaust the land so much, as the stock of cattle, by their manure, renews its prolific qualities. The woollen, linen, and cotton manufactures are numerous, and, I was told, flourishing; and, as all manufactured goods from foreign countries are either excluded or charged with high duties in Austria, the demand of that extensive empire creates a vent for the native goods, though at the expense of the consumers, who perhaps in most, certainly in many, cases, might get better and cheaper goods. After passing through poorer districts, I was much impressed throughout Moravia, with the striking practical exemplification of the beneficial effects of manufactures on the prosperity of the agriculturists.
In Vienna I had opportunities of hearing much of the condition of the landed
478
Although so near to Moravia, the Carpathian mountains are too lofty and rugged to admit of conveyance thither. The mouths of the Danube are so infested with marauders, Wallachians, Besarabians, and Turks, that no safe export can be made to the Black Sea. In times of great scarcity in the maritime countries, some wheat may be conveyed to the port of Trieste; but it will be seen by the prices in the Appendix, No. 31, that it is too low at that market to afford a land carriage of four hundred miles. Though Presburgh is the chief market for the wheat of Hungary, yet, being but little more than twenty miles from Vienna, the price there cannot differ very much from that of the capital, for which see Appendix, No. 27. In some of the smaller towns in Austria, on the borders of Bavaria, where little wheat is consumed, I found the price of wheat and rye nearly the same. The harvest of the latter kind of grain was reported to be deficient, and had raised the price, whilst for the former there was little or no demand.
It will be seen by the returns of the prices of corn at Munich £see Appendix, No. 28], that the bread corn in Bavaria is not so much depressed as in Austria. This may be attributed to a law prohibiting the introduction of corn from the surrounding countries, from whence, chiefly from Bohemia, it had been the practice to import it. Tin's prohibition had rested on an order from the king to the officers of the Customs at the different frontier stations; but at the last assembly of the states a formal law was passed, enforcing the former regulation, and enacting penalties on the breaches of it.
Notwithstanding the restrictions, I found on inquiry at the Board of Agriculture that the value of land had greatly declined. According to the statements given to me there, within the last eight years, the fall in the selling price of meadow land had been about thirty-five per cent, and that in the price of arable land full sixty per cent.
479
The complaints of the losses by farming were as heavy here as in the neighbouring countries where the prices we lower, and in which no laws to prohibit importation are in existence.
In the kingdom of Wirtemburg, wheat is so little an object of attention, from the small quantity which is consumed, that I was unable to obtain any other returns of the prices, than the imperfect list in the Appendix, No. 29, wherein, though the price of rye is regularly stated, that of wheat, for many periods, and at several markets, is wholly unnoticed. In the beautiful but narrow valley of the Neckar, the land is well cultivated; but, in other parts of the kingdom, the soil seemed to be poor, and the cultivation in a very backward state.
As I passed through France rather hastily, and spent but a few days in Paris, I had not opportunities of gaining minute information, as to the state of Agriculture. I was, however, satisfied, that, in spite of partial advances towards a better rotation of crops, the far greater part of the cultivation is still carried on upon the ancient and, in England, long exploded, system of a fallow followed by two crops of corn.
I was assured that, for several years past, every cultivator of grain has been selling at far less than it has cost him. Some of the best judges of the subject have calculated that wheat, in the four classes of districts formed of the departments for the purposes of regulating the importation and exportation of corn, costs to the grower on an average, from 20 to 22 francs the hectolitre, or from 6
s
d
s
d
How far this calculation may be correct, it would be presumption in me to assert. The corn laws of France are, however, founded on a supposition of this being the price necessary to secure a profit to the farmer. The kingdom is divided, for the purposes of the Corn-law, into four districts, each including departments in which the prices of grain are nearly alike. When wheat is below 18 francs the hectolitre, or 5
s
d
s
d
s
d
s
d
s
d
480
The laws which regulate the corn trade of France, were passed in 1819 and 1821, and the price of corn has not, since the end of the year 1818, ever risen so high as to effect the opening of their ports. Since that year the price has been fluctuating, but declining in the following ratio. [see Appendix, No. 30.]
Average of the whole of France.
s
d
1820
5
3½
1821
4
11
1822
4
3½
1823
4
11
1824
4
6½
1825
4
3½
Your lordships have been pleased in my instructions, to direct me "to consider with reference to the provinces communicating with the Baltic sea by the Vistula, from the view I take of the country, what increase of cultivation would be likely to take place in consequence of such a stimulus being constantly in action, as would be applied, if an alteration were made in our laws, so as to leave our markets at all times accessible to the corn grown in Poland;" and further, I have been instructed, "that, as it may be necessary to assume some given price in this country, in forming such an estimate, it was thought desirable to proceed upon a supposition of an average price of wheat at home, of 60
s
s
This question involves so many considerations depending not only on the present condition of the country, but on the political regulations to which it may hereafter be subject, that any reasonings applied must be in a great measure hypothetical and speculative; and any conclusions we may arrive at, must be liable to be affected by changes which cannot now be contemplated, or taken into calculation.
The utmost that can be done is to approximate to a result, by a consideration of the principal circumstances on which it will depend, by reference to the fluctuations in past periods, and by an examination into the causes from which those fluctuations have proceeded.
In obedience to this direction, I presume, with the diffidence which must be always felt in anticipating the effects of untried, and consequently doubtful experiments, to state my views on the subject.
The effect of the stimulus here proposed
481
The statements which are given in the part of this report, more immediately relating to the kingdom of Poland, will show that the want of capital among the cultivators has proceeded to such an extent from the losses they have sustained, that they must, in a great degree, be disabled from making any considerable improvement in cultivation, or of raising any very large increase of produce in a short period. The great deficiency of live stock, which indeed may be resolved into a deficiency of capital, would be an impediment in the way of a rapid extension of the growth of wheat. Without manure wheat cannot be grown beneficially, and without a stock of cattle, in some degree commensurate to the extent of the land, manure cannot be obtained; and though to a certain degree the profit arising from the wool, and not from the meat, enables the landowners to support some few sheep, yet the want of a class of consumers who can afford to make animal food their subsistence, must operate to prevent any great increase in the stocks of cattle. Such a class is not to be expected there till a great improvement, or an increase of manufacturers, shall have taken place. The greater portion of the population of Poland is too poor to allow of their using animal food; the want of it is scarcely felt by persons always accustomed to live, with very little variation of diet, on rye bread.
The labouring classes too, being assured of a supply of the bare necessaries of life, are little disposed to any great changes in their mode of work, or any exertion of strength or skill beyond that to which they have been accustomed.
482
They have been, perhaps, and not without some reason, always represented as indolent, unskilful, filthy, and drunken, and averse to the improvement which their wiser and better superiors have attempted to introduce.
Whilst the present low price of corn continues, and the corresponding low rate of wages, and the markets of Russia are open to the woollen cloths of Poland without duty, the profit of capital employed in that branch of industry must offer to it temptations that agriculture does not present. But if by any alterations the cloths of Poland should in the Russian Custom-houses be placed on the footing of the cloths of other countries, or if a rise of corn and of wages should take place to such an extent as to make the Polish cloths dearer than those which are charged with duty, the effects might be, to drive the capital from the cloth trade to the business of cultivation. The present want of capital may possibly be supplied by influx from other countries, but this must depend in a great measure on the internal government and political regulations of the country. The increase of manufactories in Poland, and the augmented population which they usually induce, might produce such a number of internal consumers as to leave much less surplus corn to export to other countries. It is true that wheat would be but little eaten by the manufacturers, but the increased demand for rye might make that kind of grain the most profitable to the grower, and he would then devote to the cultivation of it some portions of the land which, under different circumstances, would have been appropriated to the growth of wheat.
The manufacturers in Poland are however of too little importance, at present, to make it desirable to hazard any conjectures on what the effects of their increase or diminution would be on the surplus quantity of exportable grain.
A view of the past exportation from the Vistula, at different periods, and under different circumstances, will perhaps give some assistance in forming an idea of what may be the result of future changes.
It is worthy of remark, that in the long period of 166 years, of which the returns are given [see Appendix No. 24], there has been but little variation in the actual quantities of corn exported from Dantzic when taken by periods of twenty-five years. At the commencement it is seen,
483
The whole period of 166 years, returns of which, as extracted from the city records of Dantzic, are in the Appendix, No. 24, when divided into periods of about twenty-five years, exhibits the following annual exportation of wheat and rye from that port.
WHEAT.
RYE.
TOTAL.
YEARS.
Quarters.
Quarters.
Quarters.
1651 to 1675
81,775
225,312
307,087
1676 to 1700
124,897
227,482
352,379
1701 to 1725
59,795
170,100
229,895
1726 to 1750
80,624
119,771
200,395
1751 to 1775
141,080
208,140
349,220
1776 to 1800
150,299
103,045
253,344
1801 to 1825
200,330
67,511
267,841
The average of the whole period gives an annual quantity of wheat and rye, of 279,794 quarters; and this surplus may be fairly considered as the nearest approach that can be made, with existing materials, to what is the usual excess of the production of bread corn, above the consumption of the inhabitants, when no extraordinary circumstances occur to excite or check cultivation.
In some of the early periods of this series, there have been great variations in the quantity exported, but not so considerable as within the last thirty-six years; we have, too, from 1791, the returns of exports from the rival ports of Dantzic and Elbing since that date, and thus, from both outlets of the Vistula, can trace the advance or decline of the surplus produce of corn, from the countries bordering on that stream.
484
Exports of wheat and rye from the cities of Dantzic and Elbing:—
YEARS.
WHEAT.
RYE.
TOTAL.
Quarters.
Quarters.
Quarters.
1791
256,680
25,714
282,394
1792
224,492
259,402
488,894
1793
303,597
336,660
640,257
1794
269,545
180,757
450,302
1795
247,842
24,517
272,359
1,302,156
827,050
2,129,206
Average of the five years
260,431
165,410
425,841
This considerable advance beyond former periods was the commencement of a still greater progress in the five next years.
YEARS.
WHEAT.
RYE.
TOTAL.
Quarters.
Quarters.
Quarters.
1796
416,235
111,720
527,955
1797
348,705
177,796
526,501
1798
385,862
290,11
414,873
1799
342,940
164,660
503,600
1800
554,202
26,617
580,819
2,047,944
505,804
2,553,748
Average of the five years
409,588
101,160
510,748
In the next five years the quantity still increasing reached its greatest height, and more corn was then exported than in the following twenty years.
YEARS
WHEAT.
RYE.
TOTAL.
Quarters.
Quarters.
Quarters.
1801
484,150
138,085
622,255
1802
663,222
345,820
1,009,042
1803
460,047
444,537
904,584
1804
544,267
134,400
678,667
1805
595,129
17,700
612,829
2,746,815
1,080,842
3,827,357
Average of the five years
549,365
216,108
765,471
Of these 2,746,815 quarters of wheat, exported in the last-noted five years, 1,754,114 being a yearly quantity of 350,820 quarters was consigned to England, and the greater part of the remainder, to France.
The year 1806 was the unfortunate time when the war, first with England, and afterwards, or rather before, its close,
485
The state of the exportation for the last five years, forms a striking contrast with the corresponding term in the periods here seen.
Export from Dantzic and Elbing.
YEARS.
WHEAT.
RYE.
TOTAL.
1821
126,136
16,128
142,264
1822
44,352
111
44,463
1823
68,450
74,370
132,820
1824
59,996
5,943
65,939
1825
118,681
15,414
134,095
417,615
111,966
519,581
Average of the five years
83,523
22,933
101,916
The circumstances which produced that great exportation of corn, from 1801 to 1805, are of much importance in the consideration of the prospects of future exportations; and the causes by which, in the space of the previous years, they were enabled to attain to that height, deserve to be traced.
Under the act 31 Geo. 3. cap. 30 (1791), the ports of England had been constantly open, for ten years, for the importation of wheat. If the average price of wheat was below 50
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Our laws at that time laid restraints on the import of corn from Ireland, and that part of the empire had not made the progress it has since done in the cultivation of corn.
The ports of England were not merely open during this term, but by the act of 36 Geo. 3. c. 21, large premiums were given on corn imported, to secure the importers, whether in British or in neutral vessels, certain prices, till 500,000 quarters should have been imported, after which the premiums were to be reduced. This act passed in 1796 for a year, was continued by another act in 1797; and, with
486
During the ten years, from 1791, to 1801, there was a constant demand in France for foreign corn; several deficient harvests had been experienced at the beginning of the revolution. The agents of France were employed both in Europe and America, in purchasing corn and hiring neutral vessels to convey it to France; paying but little regard to the price they gave for it, or to the rate of freight at which it could be transported. Holland, which scarcely has ever grown corn sufficient for its own consumption, felt a great want, owing to its internal sources of supply from Germany and Flanders, being diverted from the usual channels, by the circumstances of the war.
Sweden for many years had looked for some supply from Prussia, not, indeed, of wheat to any extent, but chiefly of Rye. During the period we are now considering, that country had been afflicted with several successive deficient harvests; and such was the distress from want of corn, that a large part of the population had been compelled to use the bark of trees as a substitute for rye. That kingdom thus became a market which could take as much as her poverty could find the means of paying for. In addition to these external circumstances, the land in Poland was less burthened with taxes than it is at present. The tenth Groschen war-tax was not then enacted. Some other taxes then imposed have not been since abandoned. In Prussia, likewise, taxation is higher now than from 1801 to 1805.
These combined circumstances gave to the agriculture of Poland and Prussia, a portion of capital and motives to exertion, which produced the vast surplus that was exported from 1801 to 1805. Ten years of unexampled prosperity were, however, needed, to reach the point which those years exhibit, and it was only by gradual steps that it was attained.
The impulse given by the open markets, and by the high prices which had opened them, acted with accumulated force in the next five years, and raised the surplus, as we have seen, somewhat higher.
If the same powerful stimulus could now be applied to excite the cultivators, in Poland and in Prussia, to increase their supplies of corn, as were experienced from 1791 to 1801, it would be reasonable to conclude, that the result might be the
487
Whether these reports are true, or to what extent they are true, it is natural to suppose that the very high price which wheat had reached in the years under consideration must have vastly extended the limits of the circle from which it would be collected, and would induce the inhabitants to despatch to the high markets whatever could be spared by the exercise of the most rigid economy.
By the constant application of all these powerful stimuli, which were in operation during ten years, we have seen that at length the surplus of wheat, which the Vistula and its borders, extended to unusual dimensions, could yield, amounted to 550,000 quarters annually, or about sufficient, supposing the whole to be sent here for the consumption of this kingdom, with its present population, during the space of twelve days.
It is scarcely to be calculated, that the same occurrences of circumstances, propitious to the agricultural prosperity of the lands on the border of the Vistula, should again present themselves. Neither the demands of France nor England are likely to be so great, or to continue for so long a period, as at that time. It is scarcely to be calculated upon, that any future wars will be so long in duration, or spread over so extensive a field of operations, as those which rose out of the revolution of France; and it is therefore not likely that the quantity exported will ever rise to so great an amount. Whatever stimulus may be applied to excite the agricultural improvement of the banks of
488
If we suppose the cost of wheat to the grower in the vicinity of Warsaw, to be about 28
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If a duty in this country of 10
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I see no reason to believe, that with such a duty as I have mentioned for England, and a price from 60
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489
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WILLIAM JACOB.
Corn-Returns Office,
21st February, 1826.
PETITION OF WEST-INDIA MERCHANTS FOR PROTECTION OF THEIR
Mr. Baring
presented a petition from the Merchants of London trading to the West Indies, Mortgagees, and others, having claims upon West-India Estates, praying the interference of the House to give them some further protection for their property, or else compensation. He bespoke the earnest attention of the House to the complaints and representations of this respectable body of petitioners upon a subject of very considerable importance to the ultimate welfare of the empire. He could not but think this appeal to their consideration somewhat superfluous when he reflected that the petition which he was introducing to their notice was a claim of right upon the protection of the British parliament, in behalf of a species of property which was formerly reckoned, however now reduced below that standard, among the most sure and valuable in the possession of British subjects. And, that property in these colonies was no longer regarded with the same feeling of confidence as to its stability, it did not need this petition to tell them. The fact had long since established itself in the minds of those whose attention had been called to the subject. It had become matter of notoriety, and, at length, had reached that alarming point at which it was deemed necessary for the preservation of individual property, to call in aid the specific interference of parliament. He professed himself to be an anxious friend to the emancipation of the negroes from slavery; but it did not therefore follow that he was a disciple of the sect called the Abolitionists; or that he would league himself in any of the rash schemes proposed for the precipitation of that measure. If done at all, it could only be done, with safety and justice, by gradual approaches, by moderate and well-digested measures, preparatory in their nature, and carried into execution under the guiding hand of wisdom and discretion. In no other way could this most desirable end be attained. Valuable property, however, was tampered with by those who sought, by exaggeration, to excite the feelings and mislead the minds of the people of
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Mr. W. Smith
said, he rose merely to repel the insinuations of the hon. member, against the abolitionists, and to deny every word and every assertion to their prejudice uttered by the hon. gentleman, or contained in the petition on the table. He thought he could not better illustrate the question at issue between himself and the hon. member, than by reading a few lines from a petition which was presented to that House on Friday last, from the Board of Council and House of Assembly of the island of Antigua, which set forth, "That, year after year the memorialists have represented the distressed situation of that colony, produced by the continuation of the war-duties on their staple commodities, during a period of twelve years' peace, in utter disregard of the pledge given at the time of the augmentation of those duties by the ministers of the day, that such duties should cease on the return of peace and tranquillity; that, although no notice has been hitherto taken of the just claims of the memorialists to relief, they trusted the time would yet arrive when they should be allowed to participate in the prosperity enjoyed
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Mr. Warre
said, that although he was an advocate for the amelioration of slavery, and although he admitted that much had been effected towards the attainment of that measure, he thought that the conduct pursued by persons in this country who professed themselves to be the advocates of emancipation, had retarded rather than promoted the great cause which they had espoused. Many members of the House, and more particularly those gentlemen who were interested in the West-India question, had most likely read a pamphlet, written by a master in Chancery, who once had been a member of the House. Whatever might be the opinion of hon. gentlemen of that work, he could not but think that it contained passages of a highly inflammatory and injurious nature. Mr. Stephen had dragged into the discussion persons and circumstances that had better have been omitted. What necessity, for instance, was there for the introduction of a passage like this: "You are zealous in the cause of the oppressed Greeks, and the feeling does you honour. You reprobate strongly the illiberal despotism that presses down its yoke on the necks of the unfortunate Spaniards; and it is a right and generous indignation. Can you then be insensible to the far more intolerable wrongs, to the far more goading oppression, which the poor Africans suffer under your own dominion? The Greeks have not yet been driven by the cart whip; and many a tyrant, more illiberal and ungrateful than Ferdinand, are maintained by British bayonets, as he by French ones, on the petty thrones of the plantations." He again contended that such exaggerated and illiberal language as this had a direct tendency to retard the march of genuine improvement. He was no enemy to the cause of negro improvement, when temperately and properly conducted; but he felt deeply the difficulties of the question; and whatever evils belonged or had belonged to the slave system, it ought to
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Dr. Lushington
said, he was sorry that on the mere presentation of a petition on this subject, he could not feel himself at liberty to remain silent; but he must say something respecting the observations of the hon. member for Taunton. The hon. member had said, that there had been great exaggerations on both sides. Now, he would be glad to know who they were that thus exaggerated, and to whom the blame chiefly belonged. He maintained, that if there had been any, it was very little indeed, on the side of those who were anxious to ameliorate the condition of the negroes. Every document from the colonies showed that their statements had not been exaggerated; and he invited the hon. member for Rochester, who said "hear, hear!" to read those statements, and then to prove, if he could, that the charges of the degradation and oppression of the negroes by West-India planters were unfounded. Every charge made by the abolitionists would be borne out by these documents. Out of a pamphlet of a hundred pages, written by a distinguished individual, the hon. member who spoke last had quoted one short passage, which he considered as intemperate and exaggerated; but the hon. member had made no allowance for the very great provocation which that distinguished person had received from the zealous endeavours of the slavery partizans to hold him up to public indignation. It ought to be recollected, that the very able pamphlet in question had been written by a gentleman of high character, and great personal information on the subject. Whoever read that pamphlet, would find that it was the work of one who had great personal knowledge of the subject, as
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Mr. Bernal
said, he could not but feel that the pamphlet contained many exaggerations, although he was not prepared at present to point them out. There was one mis-statement in that work, however, to which he should now refer, for the purpose of supporting his assertion. He alluded to the branding of slaves. During the time that the slave trade was in existence, and slaves were imported in a state of the grossest barbarism, the practice had been resorted to, and was generally prevalent; but, as the black population became a Creole or native population, it was abandoned, and any one who should now attempt any thing of the kind, would be stigmatised and scouted by the planters. He did not mean to say that those who had been convicted in courts of justice might not be so branded; but the practice, as applicable to the creole population, under any other circumstances, had no existence whatever. He had heard it, however, repeatedly asserted, and within those walls, as well as in a variety of pamphlets, that it did exist, and the proprietors were stigmatised in consequence, as barbarous and inhuman monsters. He would also ask the hon. member whether, when the Legislative Assembly of Jamaica passed an act, to exempt slaves from working on Saturdays, it was not an exaggeration to say, that the act had been passed as much for the benefit of the masters as of the slaves? He challenged any hon. member to say, that it was for the benefit of the masters. If the hon. member would meet him fairly, and bring forward specific cases, he would pledge himself to convince him, that there had been gross exaggerations, and in channels where it was difficult to contradict them. It was easy, when the main party resided at a distance of four thousand miles, to bring forward accusations against him. It was not so easy to find the means of gainsaying those accusations, and this was a consideration which ought to weigh with the House, whenever any
495
An hon. member, whose name we could mot learn, observed, that all he wished to know upon the subject, wa6 really required of the West-India planters. It was easy to deal in general declamation and undefined charges, but he would give no support to the petition, or to any resolution which might be brought forward, unless it denned the concessions which were required.
Mr. Manning
said, it was impossible to refute such general charges as those which were always brought forward in discussions on this subject. He had read the pamphlet which had been alluded to, and entertained the highest respect for its author, but he could not justify the language which was used in some parts of it. He would appeal to the under Secretary of State for the colonies, whether the petitioners stated the truth or not, when they asserted that there were 800,000 slaves in a state of degradation and misery. He knew, from personal experience, that there was gross exaggeration in the pictures which had been drawn of the state of the slave-population in the West Indies. Abuse was not the way to promote improvement, but, on the contrary, to obstruct it.
Mr. Sykes
said, that, on which ever side the alleged exaggerations might have preponderated, he held a paper in his hand which showed how far the zeal of the hon. member for Rochester would carry him. The hon. member had asserted, that it was not the general practice of the Jamaica planters to brand their negroes. Now he had happened to look at the Jamaica Gazette, and he found from that paper that it was still as common a practice to brand the negroes of the soil, or the freehold negroes, as to brand any others. There were freehold negroes, of the names of Bullock and Cæsar, stated to have been so branded on the shoulders and other places; and in the whole it appeared, out of a list of three or four columns, that twenty freehold negroes had been branded in the same manner. This was, therefore, an unfortunate instance, to prove that the Abolitionists had been guilty of exaggeration. One word as to Mr. Stephen. It was certainly not fair to read a single passage of a long pamphlet, as a proof of general exaggeration on the part of those who promoted
496
Mr. Canning
said, he did not think it fair to call upon persons in official situations to answer questions put by members on the presentation of petitions, as had been done by the hon. gentleman behind him. He, therefore, thought that he was doing the House a favour when he in-treated his hon. friend (Mr. Horton) not to answer such questions.
Mr. Thomas Wilson
did not think, that the planters ought to suffer unfounded statements against them to pass uncontradicted. It was due to them to repel such statements when made. A learned friend of his had denied that any exaggeration had been used by those who supported the question of amelioration. Now, a petition from London, signed by 70,000 persons, had been presented in favour of amelioration. And how had that petition been got up? The representation of a negro in chains had been exhibited all over London, and by means of this exhibition, which had a tendency to create the most unfavourable impression against the planters, a great part of these signatures had, no doubt, been obtained. In truth many of the petitions had been got up in a manner disgraceful to the cause. The Anti-slavery Society had sent round the country printed forms of petitions, and used many other unfair means to promote their object; and, if any thing could be more unfair than another, it was the holding out to the people, that the ministers expected their petitions, in order to enable them to carry their purposes into effect. He trusted ministers would know their duty better titan to pay any regard to popular clamour; and that they would proceed upon a sound, temperate, and deliberate view of what the real interests of the country demanded. Another point in some of these petitions deserved notice. They spoke of a protecting duty on West-India sugar, which the petitioners seemed to wish done away with, and so to put an end to slavery. But we had done much more for the amelioration of the slaves than had been done by the Brazilians, some of the
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Mr. Evans
said, that if the hon. gentleman would take the trouble of looking at the petition, he would find that it did not pray for the introduction of sugar by free labour, and not by slave labour, to the prejudice of the West-India manufacturers. He confessed, however, that he did not think it fair that sugar made by free labour should be subject to a higher duty than that which was produced by the labour of slaves.
Mr. W. Smith
entreated the attention of his hon. friend, the member for Rochester, for whom he had the greatest respect, while he undertook to convince him that gentlemen of his description on this side of the water were ignorant of what was passing on the other side. His hon. friend had stated, that branding negroes was a practice now never heard of in the West Indies. Now, he held in his hand the supplement to the Royal Gazette of Jamaica, published on the 16th of February, 1826, in which was an account of the apprehended deserters then in the Clarendon workhouse. The first mentioned was Dick, a Creole negro, marked with the letter H. The next was named Richard Smith, also a Creole negro, five feet four inches high, and marked with the letters W. S. and a diamond above them. The hon. gentleman read several other instances of the same kind in St. Mary's Workhouse. One half of the deserters, he added, were Creole negroes, and they were all marked. For his part, he solemnly declared, that if he lived in Jamaica, he would rather run the risk of never getting his Creoles again, than offend the eyes and the ears of the British people by inflicting so inhuman and degrading a stigma. The slaves thus treated must be
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Mr. Bernal
said, it should be borne in mind that there were upwards of 300,000 slaves in the island of Jamaica. His hon. friend, in his zeal against slavery, had taken up a copy of the Jamaica Gazette, and finding that some deserters were there stated to be marked, he concluded that all the negroes were branded. What he had stated was, that branding was a practice generally going into disuse. The negroes who had taken refuge in the workhouse were, it was to be presumed, notorious runaways, and that disposition rendered it necessary to mark them. They, however, bore but a small proportion to the whole negro population. He was a decided enemy to the practice himself, even with regard to runaways, and he was satisfied that it was by no means general.
Mr. C. R. Ellis
said, that the practice of branding, where it was unnecessarily applied, was not only regarded as cruel, but condemned as illegal. He knew an instance in which the owner of a slave had been prosecuted for this offence, under an act of the colonial legislature. If any doubt existed as to the fact, he pledged himself to produce the case.
Ordered to be printed.
ALIENS REGISTRATION BILL.
Mr. Secretary Peel,
on rising pursuant to notice, to introduce a bill for the Registration of Aliens, observed, that when the Alien Act was last under discussion in 1824, a hope was expressed by his right hon. friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, and by himself, that at the period to which the duration of that act was limitted, it might be possible to dispense with the powers of compelling aliens to leave the country, given by that measure to the executive government. The period had now arrived when those powers would cease, unless by the intervention of the House they were prolonged; as the act of 1824 would expire in November next. He was extremely happy to have it now in his power to fulfil the expectation which he had just alluded to, and to inform the House, that it was not the intention of his majesty's government to call for the prolongation of this law. In proposing the Registration bill on the present occasion, it was merely wished that the government should have that to which he thought there could be no possible objection; namely, a Registration of the
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Lord Althorp
congratulated the right hon. gentleman on the liberal course which he had just taken, and expressed his perfect confidence that no inconvenience whatever would arise from the expiration of the Alien bill, but that, on the contrary, the relaxation of such a; system of uncongenial policy would operate beneficially for the country.
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Mr. Hobhouse
begged to express his entire concurrence in the opinion which had just been delivered by his noble friend. He was quite sure that the proposal of the right hon. gentleman would be hailed with gratitude, not only by those in that House, who were, upon constitutional grounds, the opponents of the Alien bill, but by the friends of just and liberal principles in every quarter of Europe. Indeed, he believed the government were hardly aware of the extent of benefit they were conferring by the abandonment of this measure. The Alien bill, whether in actual or threatened operation, was always reckoned by enlightened foreigners as one of those measures by which England had suffered herself to become connected with the arbitrary system of the continent. He could assure the right hon. gentleman that every intelligent traveller was impressed with the prevalence of this belief. The abandonment, therefore, of a system so abhorrent to the principles of the British constitution would be hailed all over Europe as the principal step—(in conjunction with those other liberal measures which had been lately taken by the Secretary for Foreign Affairs)—on the part of Great Britain to a return to that policy which had so long made her, through a bright succession of years of triumph, also the protectress of the oppressed, and the great patroness of public liberty all over the world. He was quite confident that his majesty's government would have no reason to repent the confidence they were disposed to place in the foreigners who had sought an asylum in this country, and that they would find themselves quite safe in reverting to the old policy and laws under which England had so long flourished. Before he sat down, he must say, that he could hardly find adequate terms in which to express his gratitude to the right hon. gentleman for the course he was about to pursue on the present occasion.
Sir R. Wilson
did not rise to detain the House while he paid a tribute of justice to the right hon. gentleman. But it was due from him to say, that not only had the powers of this bill not been abused during the administration of the right hon. gentleman, but he could, from his own personal communications, bear testimony, that he had, upon various opportunities, found him most anxious to do justice to the claims of foreigners, and
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Mr. Peel
said, that the difficulty might be obviated by the alien telling the officer, confidentially, what his name really was. The regulation he considered necessary as it might be desirable, on some occasions, to know the number of aliens in the country, and the particular points to which they were resorting.
Mr. Denman
entirely concurred in the praise which had been bestowed upon the right hon. gentleman on the present occasion. He was glad of the abandonment of this measure, for he knew that it was a modern innovation of only thirty three years standing, and that it was a most unnecessary measure; for this country had, through all previous times, maintained her policy towards strangers without the infliction of such oppression. Still he was glad of the change, and congratulated the House upon the termination which it would put to a system in itself unjust and oppressive, and which no existing circumstances could make longer necessary.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
SLAVE POPULATION IN DEMERARA
Mr. William Smith,
in rising to make his promised motion, respecting the treatment of Slaves in the colonies of Demerara and Berbice, observed, that the subject was so interesting, important, and fertile in difficulties, as well as in the many considerations it involved, that he deemed it better to treat it by piecemeal, than bring the whole bearings of the question at once before the House. The angry discussions which took place on the subject were caused by the claim set up on the part of the planters, to a property in the body of man. They all contended, that they had an
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Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that the greater part of the hon. member's speech was so little in keeping with the resolutions that he had submitted to the House, that he felt some difficulty in knowing whether he was to address his observations to the speech or the resolution. In the first instance he must object to a part of the hon. gentleman's resolution; for to say that the slaves still remained in a state of insecurity, was to say that the course which had been pursued by his majesty's government, and which had been sanctioned by the approbation of parliament, was insufficient to remove the existing evil. At that moment, the order in council which was issued in Trinidad was, with a few modifications, in full operation in Demerara, and would soon be so in Berbice. Under these circumstances, he owned he was at a loss to discover what practical advantage there could be in looking back to see what the law, and the usages under the law, had been. It would be much better, in his opinion, to look forward, and to anticipate the benefits which would result from the measures that had lately been adopted. It was perfectly true that a protector of slaves had been appointed for the colony of Demerara. He was an individual who, after a full inquiry into his qualifications and character, appeared to be perfectly competent to the important situation to which he had been
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Mr. C. R. Ellis
said, he could not allow the conduct of the West-India planters to go undefended. He asserted that they treated their slaves with kindness and humanity, and, whenever they acted otherwise, it was well known that they were subject to the control and animadversion of parliament. It was equally well known, that their property was secured to them by the faith of parliament, and that, if any encroachment was made upon it, it was the bounden duty of parliament to afford them an adequate compensation. He was quite willing, however, to agree with what the
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Mr. R. Martin
said, if he thought that by passing the resolution, the good contemplated by the hon. mover, would be the consequence, he would give it his decided support; but as he was satisfied that, taking the sense of the House (be the result what it might) would produce consequences diametrically opposite to those anticipated by his hon. friend, and would have the effect of encouraging the colonial assemblies in their opposition to the wishes of his majesty's government, he would suggest the propriety of withdrawing the motion.
Mr. Denman
said, he did not think with the hon. member who had last addressed the House, that the pressing of this resolution to a division could have the effect of better enabling the colonial assemblies to resist the wishes of parliament and the government. The hon. gentler man who last but one had addressed the House, had, very unjustly, accused the hon. mover, with having indulged in a desultory speech, but that hon. member, appeared to him to have followed the course which he had so much deprecated. He had not heard any observation from
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Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, it was illegal under the general law of cruelty.
Mr. Denman
said, he certainly understood that the brand mark was considered as coming within the operation of that law, but he repeated, that there was no specific act of the legislature declaring it to be illegal. What possible objection there could be to the motion of his hon. friend he was at a loss to imagine. It had been admitted on all hands, that the office which had been instituted of nominal protector of the slaves was an inefficient one; and the effect of this motion would be, to give to the slaves the benefit of real protection. The fiscal had made, in the cases alluded to by his hon. friend near him, some very incorrect returns. By those and other returns, it was clearly shown that great and excessive cruelties had been practised upon the negroes. And could any man deny that the penalties which had been, in a few instances, inflicted upon those who had been guilty of such cruelties, were disproportionate to the enormity of the offence? For his own part, he had been exceedingly astonished to hear an hon. member say of them, "that they were not in unison with the feelings of his own mind." Now, really, when a gentleman of the cultivated mind and kindly feelings which that hon. member was known to possess, could content himself with applying so mild an expression to a case where the most enormous and disgusting atrocities had been visited with so lenient a hand, he felt that
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Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, he had not opposed the motion on the ground that it was an attack on the government. His objection to it was, that all which it pro-posed to do had already been done by government.
Mr. Denman
said, that if that were the case, he had misunderstood the hon. gentleman, and the time of the House had been wasted in useless discussion. He thought, however, that it would not be improper to confirm what had been done by government, by a resolution of that House, and on that account he would vote for the motion, if his hon friend should press it to a division.
Mr. C. R. Ellis,
in explanation, said, the phrase "not in unison with his own feelings," was applied to the sentences passed upon the culprits. Upon the details of the cruelties themselves, he had said, that they could not be read without horror and disgust.
Mr. Denman
said, he could not retract the remark he had made; inasmuch as, in his view of the matter, the conduct of the fiscal in inflicting light sentences, where the most enormous offences had been committed, was even more reprehensible than the commission of such acts of violence, under certain circumstances.
Mr. Baring
said, it appeared to him, that the House was called upon to decide this question; namely, whether it was proper that the management of" the colonies should be placed in the hands of the
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Mr. Brougham
said, he was compelled to complain of the gross misrepresentation of his hon. friend, both of members of that House, and of individuals out of that House forming the Anti-slavery Society. His hon. friend had charged that society with agitating the country on the subject of negro slavery, and with creating the feeling which existed abroad, and which would exist until it had produced an effect on the deliberations of that House, if necessary; on the conduct of government, if that conduct should require such influence; and last, but not least in this question, even on the West-India legislatures themselves. He, however, denied that the feeling which pervaded the country on the subject, was attributable to the agitations of the society, to the publications emitted by them, or to the speeches made at its meetings. No misrepresentations had been put forth by the society. They had made no appeal to the passions of mankind, but had only repeated facts stated in the first place, out of the mouths of the West-Indians themselves; and by those facts had the feelings of the people of England been unanimously roused. His hon. friend had stated, that he had not time to read the publications put forth by the society. In justice to the society, he wished his hon. friend would not find time to condemn publications which he could not find time to read. He himself had read the accounts of almost all the Anti-slavery Society meetings and, although the persons attending those meetings were naturally excited by the nature of the question with which
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Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that the view which he took of the question would not require that he should trespass for any length of time on the attention of the House. Whether he viewed the motion as tending to excite the fears of those connected with West-India property, or to stimulate the zeal of those opposed to negro slavery, he thought it at the present moment unnecessary. One of his objections to it was, that it professed to be in furtherance of the views—as all those motions were said to be—of those who were favourable to such an improvement of the condition of the slaves as would lead to a gradual abolition of slavery. Such a motion, he would say, was at the present moment unnecessary. He spoke not so much in objection to this particular motion, as to the motives of which it was an evidence, and to the system of which it formed a part. If the motion were made from a suspicion that government was not sincere in what it proposed to do, it was not well-founded; and it was worse, as it might tend to counteract the effect of what was proposed to be accomplished. He would be satisfied that government should be judged by what it had proposed to do, and by the endeavours which it had made to carry its intentions into effect. If it were intended to do more than government had already proposed to do, the time for discussing that question would come when the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman came for consideration; but it was hardly fair thus to introduce as fractional parts, what was afterwards intended to be proposed as a whole. Mention had been made of public meetings on the subject of West-India slavery. He spoke of those meetings with every respect for the parties and the object they had in view; but when they proposed their resolutions as in aid of the objects of government, he must say that, in many instances, they were rather an incumbrance than an aid. For what was the object to be obtained? The over-weening zeal of parties on one hand was intended to meet what was called the obstinate resistance of the local legislatures on the other. But he would ask, would the meetings to which he bad alluded
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otiose,
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The motion was put, and negatived without a division.
CRUELTY TO DOGS.
Mr. R. Martin
Sir M. W. Ridley
opposed the motion. The House, he said, had already rejected a motion to prevent cruelty to domestic animals, dogs of course included, and therefore they could not, consistently, support the present motion.
Mr. Hume
expressed a hope, that the hon. member would include cats in his bill. It was well known that cats were worried by dogs, and were, therefore, entitled to equal protection. Speaking seriously, he thought the House by admitting this bill for the protection of dogs, without including cats, would act inconsistently; and that by admitting it at all, they would turn legislation into ridicule. He would submit it to the House, whether it should not endeavour to preserve itself from the ridicule which these legislative measures would cast upon it.
Mr. Martin
said, he would make only one observation, and that was, that the hon. member for Montrose had promised him his support to the bill.
Mr. Hume
said, that to the best of his knowledge, he had never made such a promise.
Mr. Martin.
Then you did it without your knowledge.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he would oppose the present motion of his hon. friend, on the same ground that influenced his opposition to the last. He believed there was more injury done to the cause which his hon. friend wished to support, by the manner in which he brought forward the subject, than by any other circumstance. He would recommend his hon. friend to recollect, and act upon the advice of the hon. and learned member for Knares-borough, given on a former occasion; namely, to let public opinion and the acts of individuals remedy the evil complained of. Now, without wishing to be otherwise than serious, he could not help concurring in the remark, that if the House were to legislate for dogs, there was no reason why other animals ought not to be equally protected. We were now about to clear the Statute-book of an immense number of laws; but, if such measures as the one now proposed were adopted, it would be working at the web of Penelope, and the
531
Mr. W. Smith
opposed the motion, though he thought it desirable that acts of cruelty should be punished as misdemeanours.
Mr. Martin
defended the motion and himself against the ridicule which had been directed towards both. When he brought in a bill three years ago to prevent cruelty to animals, a noble lord who took the lead in the other House told him, that if it included dogs he would support it. He saw no reason why cattle should be protected, and, at the same time, that an animal so attached to man, as to be called the friend of man, should go unprotected. The cruelties practised on dogs were frequent and notorious. One instance occurred at Oxford, which, on account of its atrocity, deserved to be mentioned. He alluded to the act of a miscreant who sawed off a part of his dog's jaw because he thought it too long. Another case, communicated to him by Mr. Hall, the magistrate of Bow-street, was, that of two boys, who flayed a dog alive; after which, one of them led him upwards of two miles, and would have gone much further, had not a gentleman thrown him and the dog into a river. Notwithstanding the mirth it had excited, he saw no reason why cats should not be protected against cruelty, and he thought it was not very creditable to the hon. member for Montrose to attempt to throw ridicule upon the subject. He had already informed the House that the hon. member had promised him his support. He had now to communicate that hon. gentleman's reason for having, on the contrary, opposed his motion—"Because," said the hon. member for Montrose, "you did not vote against flogging in the army." He thought the House was bound, in consistency, after the support they had given to previous measures, not to oppose the bringing in of the bill.
Mr. J. Benett
said, he lamented much the difficulty there was in legislating upon such matters. It would be very desirable if some measure could be contrived that would be more general in its operation. He should be ready to give his support to any bill which had for its object to prevent such a brutal exhibition as that of dog-fighting.
Sir F. Burdett
said, that the public were much indebted to the hon. member for his exertions. Great good had been de-
532
Sir T. Acland
said, he did not think it the most advisable course to bring in, year after year, separate acts of this kind. The hon. mover had produced two instances of cruelty towards dogs, and said he could produce hundreds of cases of cruelty towards cats; yet the former he protected, and the latter He left without protection. He could not help thinking, with the hon. member for Norwich, that all cases of excessive cruelty might be fairly left to a British jury, as the law now stood.
Mr. Martin
expressed his readiness to withdraw the present bill; but stated, that he would on a future day, introduce a measure of a more comprehensive nature.
Mr. Peel
observed, that while he felt as much as any man the justice of the principle on which his hon. friend proceeded, he much approved of his determination to withdraw this bill. Still, he must guard himself from being supposed, from the course which he took on this occasion, to say one word in favour of a more extensive measure, of which his hon. friend had given notice; and of which he could, of course, know nothing.
The motion was withdrawn.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, April 21 1826.
CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.
Lord King
rose to present a petition to their lordships from the Catholic Association,
533
The Earl of Limerick
said, that in the city of Limerick there was a Catholic gentleman a magistrate.
Lord King
said, that by the new rules in all the large corporate towns no Catholic could be either a mayor, a sheriff, or common-council-man.
The Earl of Limerick
said, that the individual in question, a Mr. Roche, had been made a magistrate of Limerick by the government, under authority of a special
534
Lord Clifden
said, that Catholics were excluded from the corporation of Dublin. He reminded their lordships that he had predicted that they could never put down the Catholic Association. That Association spoke the sentiments of one fifth of the population, having a common object; and they were no more to be put down, except by removing from the Statute-book the last remnant of those laws which were a disgrace to it, than the sun was to be stopped in its course. He reminded their lordships of what had passed in Ireland in 1782, and predicted, that if they went on, year after year, denying the Catholic claims, a time of difficulty would come, when those Catholics would extort from fear what was denied to justice.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, April 21 1826.
LICENSED VICTUALLERS.
Mr. Hobhouse
presented a petition from the Licensed Victuallers of St. James's Westminster, complaining of the present system of closing public-houses at night. According to the existing law, the magistrates had the power of punishing publicans for keeping their houses open at what were called "unseasonable hours," the definition of which they themselves had to decide upon. It was a great hardship that, under that regulation, publicans were liable to be punished, upon the statement of a common informer, without having any riot or disturbance in their houses. Tradesmen in general were unable to leave there business before ten or eleven at night, and it was too bad that they should be deprived of that fair recreation which they were in the habit of indulging in the parlours of public-houses. The publicans had no objection to clearing their tap-rooms, the place most likely to be visited by idle or disorderly persons, at the prescribed hour; but it was a hardship to close their doors and empty their parlours at that time. And to this they were subject; while oyster-shops, coffee-shops, saloons, and other disorderly places, were allowed to remain open all night. If the present system was persevered in, it would ruin the best part of the trade.
Mr. Estcourt
said, that the hon. member must be aware, that some such regulation
535
Mr. Hobhouse
regretted, that the hon. member did not mean to press his bill. As to the petitioners, they were anxious to be placed more under the inspection of their respectable neighbours, and less at the mercy of common informers.
COURT OF CHANCEKY—DELAY IN
Mr. Sykes
said, that he held in his hand a petition on an interesting and important subject; namely, the abuses of the court of Chancery. Though he would not adopt the energetic language of his hon. friend on a former night, when he stated that the court of Chancery was a curse to the country, he would assert, that he thought its administration any thing but a blessing. He meant nothing personal to the learned lord who presided there; but complaints of suffering and abuses came from so many parts of the country, that he might go so far as to say, that the court of Chancery was a nuisance, and that, like other nuisances, it ought to be abated. The petition with which he was intrusted, was not from a suitor of the court, but from an individual who had, for twenty-five years, faithfully and honourably discharged his duties as a solicitor, and to whose character he could personally bear testimony. The petition was almost as prolix as a bill in Chancery, but the substance might be more briefly stated. The petitioner had been engaged in a lunatic commission, and the gravamen of his complaint was, that although his bill of costs, as long since as 1814, had been taxed allowed, and actually paid, yet, that in 1826, it had been again opened by a proceeding in Chancery. His clerk was dead, his documents dispersed, but receiving the order of the court, he had hastened to town, and consented to the re-taxation: day after day, and week after week, he had attended, and the result was, that
536
s
d
The Solicitor General
stated, that the petition had been communicated to him, and that he had in consequence made inquiries into the circumstances of this case. He thought no clear case was made out, even on the petitioner's own shewing; but this he thought was clear, that there existed a systematic attempt to hunt down the lord chancellor. The hon. member for Montrose came with a petition, complaining of a bill of foreclose, and pronounced the Chancery, and the lord chancellor, to be a curse to the country; and then came the hon. member for Hull with a petition, complaining of the issuing of a taxation of costs, upon the same system of running down the lord chancellor. The petition was a long one, but did not shew a very favourable case. However, the real state of the case was this: the petitioner, an attorney, sued out a commission of lunacy, and acted for a committee and the next of kin; and had got a considerable sum of money in his hands. He took a bond besides for the payment of costs at a particular rate, and this bond was illegal, for it was illegal for a solicitor to take any bonds from his clients for the payment of a larger sum in the way of costs than was allowed by the rules of the court. He had got his costs taxed, and they had been allowed without opposition, because one of the parties had become bankrupt, and there was no opposing party to check them. The costs had been therefore improperly taxed; and then a few years after there came a petition from the next of kin, stating these matters, and that the petitioners had charged for copies of papers which he had never made. What was the lord chancellor to do under such circumstances? He acted in the manner which even the
537
Mr. Hume
said, he would take that opportunity of stating, that, after having had time for consideration, he was still of the same opinion as before, with respect to the court of Chancery. Such an opinion he thought himself justified in entertaining and expressing, of a system, by which justice was in effect denied to millions, and the severest mental torture inflicted; and he called upon those who had exerted themselves so zealously in opposition to the infliction of bodily torture, to do every thing in their power to put down this dreadful nuisance. This, which was called a court of equity, was, in fact, a court of iniquity. The hon. and learned gentleman said, that a "few" years after the costs had been taxed, the taxation had been opened. How many of these "few" years did the hon. and learned gentleman expect to have in his life? The hon. and learned gentleman thought twelve years a very moderate time, parliament ought certainly to put an end to such a method of proceeding. When the matter was formerly under consideration, the hon. member for Surrey, and others, had held out the Chancery and the lord chancellor as blessings to the country; but God preserve him from
538
539
Mr. Green
said, he heard with pain the personal remarks which had been made on the lord chancellor, and considered it an unjustifiable use of the privileges of that House to drag, needlessly, as he conceived, the name of an individual who filled a high public office, into their discussions.
Mr. Sykes
asked whether the hon. and learned gentleman really thought that he had made out no case The hon. and learned gentleman said, that the costs had been improperly taxed. How did that appear? They were taxed in the usual mode of the court; and what else could be called a fair and proper taxation? Then it was said that the petitioner had been solicitor for opposite parties. He denied it. He had been solicitor for two parties, but not for opposite parties. This was quite common in the practice of the court; and he understood that the Chancery report now on the table permitted it. Then the hon. and learned gentleman said that it was only in a few years after the costs had been taxed, that the taxation had been opened. Was a period of twelve years so little thought of in the court of Chancery? It appeared that they reckoned there, not by years, but by generations! Nothing under twenty, thirty, or forty years, was worth consideration. He contended that no sufficient answer had been given to the petition.
The Solicitor-General
said, that the petitioner admitted, on the face of his petition, that he had made illegal charges; that he had charged for copies which he had never delivered. He was astonished that such a petition should have been presented, and still more astonished that it should have been presented by the hon. member. The hon. member had adverted to the expression of a few years; but it was not till a lapse of ten years after the transaction, that there existed any free agent to apply for opening the taxation. Even in the law courts, although costs had been regularly taxed, yet, if it appeared afterwards that the taxation had been illegal, that taxation would be opened. This power in the courts was absolutely necessary, in order to their having a proper control over agents and solicitors. So that, even on the face of his own petition, the petitioner had made out no case.
Ordered to lie on the table.
PROCLAMATIONS—IRISH NEWSPAPERS.
On the reading of the resolution
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Mr. Hume
said, that he had long been endeavouring to persuade the House to pay attention to the description of vote called for in this instance. In his view of the case, it was partly intended to bribe the public papers in Ireland. He had lately moved for a return of the sums allowed to the different papers in Ireland; and the conclusion might naturally be, that the largest sums for proclamations and advertisements would be allowed to the papers of greatest circulation. No such thing. It appeared, that the "Patriot" had been established by Mr. Wellesley Pole, when Irish secretary, to oppose the "Correspondent," then an opposition paper; and that 1,200
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541
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Sir J. Newport
suggested that the whole difficulty respecting this question might be obviated, if the duty on advertisements was relinquished, and the papers compelled to insert the government advertisements gratuitously. At present, the object of publicity was defeated by the practice of giving those advertisements to the papers which had the least circulation.
Mr. Goulburn
said, he should detain the House with only a few observations; but he trusted they would be quite conclusive. The hon. gentleman had never dealt more unfairly towards any individual, than he had that evening towards him. What was the charge against him? That he had been guilty of bribing the press of Ireland. On what did the hon. gentleman found his arguments in support of this charge? Principally on a paper laid before the House in 1819, long before he had any connection with the Irish government. Another evidence of the unfairness of the hon. gentleman was, that he had
542
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543
Mr. T. Ellis
repelled the imputation, that the masters in Chancery in Ireland gave their advertisements unfairly to particular papers. On a former occasion, he had told the hon. gentleman, that his informants were guilty of wilful misrepresentation. He repeated that assertion, and he challenged the hon. gentleman to support his statements by proof. When he first came into office, he found that, twenty years ago, certain papers had been selected by the four masters, as the most fitting for their advertisements. It was for the interest of the suitors that the same papers should always be used, as by following that course, the public knew where to look for notices of that nature. One of these papers was "Saunders's Newsletter," a paper almost exclusively devoted to advertisements, and circulating, principally in the city of Dublin. No political feeling could have led to the selection of this paper, as it was a singular feature in it, that it had no politics at all. "The Correspondent" was another paper comprised in this selection. The circulation of that paper was 300,000, the maximum of the Irish papers being 334,000. Twenty years ago, when the selection was made, it had the greatest circulation in Ireland. No statement, therefore, could be more unfounded, than that the masters had been guided by political feelings in the distribution of their advertisements. Another fact stated by the hon. gentleman opposite, he was prepared to contradict as unequivocally. He alluded to the alleged contract between government and the Wide-street Board, by which the latter had agreed to supply to particular papers the deficiency of what the former disbursed in advertisements. He was one of the commissioners of that Board, and it was impossible that any such contract could have been made without his knowledge; and he therefore could tell the hon. gentleman again, that his informants had been guilty of wilful misrepresentation. The expenses of the Wide-street Board had diminished one-half during the very time when this contract was stated to have been in operation.
Mr. Hume
, in explanation, stated, that
544
The House divided on the resolution; Ayes 40; Noes 18; Majority 22.
CHURCH RATES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. Goulburn
Mr. Spring Rice
said, that, before he submitted the motion of which he had given notice, he was anxious to remove some misconceptions which prevailed as to the true nature of the object he had in view. It was erroneously conceived by some persons, that he proposed to make it imperative on vestries to assess the respective parishes for the expenses of building Roman Catholic chapels; such was not the case. It was also stated that he wished to make some new and daring alteration.—Both suppositions were untrue. In fact, he proposed no novelty, but rather to legalize a practice which had, in some instances, been already resorted to. The proceedings in vestries had generally been of a very loose description; some of the items, as detailed in the parochial returns presented to the House were not only unwarranted by law, but in direct violation of legislative enactment; whilst others were of a very ludicrous description. In one case, a charge had been made on the parish for the expense of a suit of robes for a favourite rector, who had received preferment, and it was deemed fitting to present him with robes suitable to his doctor's degree, and this at the expense of the parish. If he understood rightly the object of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Goulburn) in introducing the bill now before the House, it was to introduce a legal mode of proceeding in vestries, and to prevent them from raising money not strictly warranted by law. Now it so happened, that hitherto, although many improper assessments had been made, there were others, which, though not strictly legal, were still justified by good fellowship and christian feel-
545
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547
Mr. Goulburn
said, that he would omit to notice any of the other considerations which pressed upon his mind, not because they were unimportant, but because the hon. gentleman had put them out of the question, and would confine himself to the single point of the power which ought or ought not to be given to the Protestant vestries of Ireland, in the terms comprehended in the proposed instruction. The hon. gentleman had said, that the present bill had grown out of a wish to repress the variety of assessments by Protestant vestries—assessments which had extended to objects which were not contemplated by the existing law. Undoubtedly, it was to correct this evil, which went to an extent demanding the interposition of parliament, that the present bill was introduced, and introduced, as he had thought, with the unanimous concurrence of all who were acquainted with the merits of the subject. It was a measure which was in a great degree founded on the recommendation of the committee on Irish affairs, which sat during the last session; and it merely limited the province of the vestry to those objects which they were legally entitled to assess for. The hon. member appeared anxious to impress upon the House that the bill tended to introduce a new practice, and that, if passed, it would take away the power which the Protestant vestries at present possessed of assessing for the repair of Roman Catholic chapels. But that was by no means the case. Whatever power the Protestant vestries possessed now they would possess after the bill had passed into a law. To make a compulsory assessment on the parish for the building or repair of a Roman Catholic chapel was at present illegal; and so it would remain after the passing of the bill. The bill would throw no obstacle in the way of any Protestant who might like to contribute to the building or repair of a Roman Catholic chapel, or a Presbyterian meeting-house. He might still yield whatever aid of that description he thought proper to afford. To the assessment for such a purpose by the majority of a Protestant vestry he objected; because, instead of being liberal themselves, it only gave them the power of being liberal at the expense of other persons. They did not contribute out of their own pockets, but they assessed a body of unwilling parishioners, for a pur-
548
Sir J. Newport
adverted to the extraordinary inequality of the treatment which the Catholics and the Protestants received
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550
Sir R. H. Inglis
objected to the measure of his right hon. friend, the Secretary for Ireland, because it compelled the House to decide upon two such propositions as the clause now brought forward, and that relative to an assessment for the poor, of which notice had been given. He admitted, as he had done on a former occasion, that there were great legal irregularities in the expenditure of the church-rates in Ireland; but he contended that these irregularities were not of a nature or an amount to justify legislative interference. In respect to the assessment upon land by a Protestant vestry, for the support of a Homan Catholic chapel or dissenting meeting-house, he had shown, on a former occasion, repeated instances of the willingness of the Protestants of Ireland to exceed the law for the benefit of their Roman Catholic and dissenting neighbours, and he had no objection to such exercise of their benevolence, so long as it could not be claimed under any law; but, though he would not pass a law forbidding it, and though he could not, therefore, concur in the bill itself, because he thought that it fettered unnecessarily the parishes of Ireland,—certainly took away the discretion which they had hitherto exercised in a way calculated to increase general good feeling,—he would not, on the other hand, make himself a party to legalizing the erection of a Roman Catholic chapel by an assessment which would be compulsory on the Protestant minority in a parish. The clause, if carried, would take
551
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553
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Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he thought the great advantage of this bill was, that it made the charges, to which a parish was subjected, definite. He agreed with the right hon. baronet opposite, that it was a great abuse for the Protestant vestry of a parish to make rates of the sort he had alluded to, such as building houses for the parish clerks, and supplying a profusion of wine; they were, doubtless, great abuses, and ought to be prevented by law, and this bill would have the effect of doing it. These vestries were to be considered as so many little parliaments in their several parishes; but their powers ought to be as clearly defined as possible. It ought to be distinctly laid down to what objects the money raised under their authority should be applied, According to the present practice, many of the parishes in Ireland, in reality, levied poor-rates. The practice was gradually creeping into more extensive adoption; and deprecating, as he did, the application of the poor-laws to that country, he must con-
554
Mr. W. Smith
supported the clause, and said, that all the difficulties which were met with in Ireland, and in no other part of the empire, or of the world, arose from the anomalous nature of her church-establishment. In other countries, the church-establishment was agreeable to the majority of the nation. In Ireland, the church-establishment was the religion of a very small minority, who imposed their own rates on the large majority. Why did not difficulties of this kind arise
555
Mr. Trant
said, he was for supporting the church-establishment of Ireland, not for Ireland alone, but as Ireland formed a part of the empire; and, as he could not agree to the latitudinarian principle of the clause, he should oppose it.
The House divided: for the instruction 18. Against it 40. The House having resolved itself into the committee,
Sir John Newport
, agreeably to the notice he had given, rose to move the repeal of the 5th section of the act of 4 Geo. 4, cap. 86, which authorizes the archbishops and bishops, in cases where there is no church in a parish, to order the assessment of rates for repairing the church of the next adjoining parish; such rates to be levied on the inhabitants of the parish having no church. He contended, that this clause was a most tyrannical one, and liable to very great abuse, as there were many parishes in Ireland in which there was not a single Protestant, yet those parishes would be compelled to pay rates for the repairs of the adjoining parish church.
Mr. Goulburn
defended the law as it stood. The principle of it was not new, or applicable to the Irish church only; for the same principle prevailed in the law of England.
Mr. S. Rice
said, the cases of England and Ireland were not at all parallel. If the question were left to the constituted bodies of the two parishes to make the union if they thought proper, he would be quite satisfied.
Mr. Peel
said, he believed, as the law now stood, the bishop was authorized to order a church to be built in parishes where there was none; and as there might be two parishes adjoining, and one church sufficient for both, it would be a saving to the parish having no church to contribute to the rates of the adjoining parish, instead of being obliged to build a new one for themselves.
Mr. S. Rice
said, that the bishop had no more power to compel the erection of a church in an adjoining parish than the grand jury had to compel the making of a road in an adjoining county. The
556
Sir J. Newport
said, he knew the case of one parish in which there were no Protestants, except the police stationed there; and to that parish the bishop united another, and the parishioners had more than five miles and a half to go to attend divine service. The great evil was, that the hierarchy of Ireland had, within the last 150 years, allowed the churches to go to decay, and now there was a call upon the Roman Catholic population to repair them. The more this grievance was looked into, the more severe would be found the pressure upon the members of that persuasion. He regretted to see this system of taxation by the church treated with such indifference by that House.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that he had never meant to defend any abuse in the levying of the church-rates, but he had merely remarked, that if a parish church happened to be out of repair, the bishop had a strict legal right to compel the parishioners to repair it.
Sir R. H. Inglis
said, that, in reference to the last point, he believed there was in existence a very curious return, stating the number of churches in Ireland in the beginning of the 17th century. He was informed, that this return stated, that in Wexford there were, at that time, twenty churches. In the year of the Restoration, 1660, only one was left, the rest having been destroyed, not by the neglect of the bishops, but by the consequences of great rebellion. In reference to the first point, the grievance, upon the ground of which alone the right hon. baronet had introduced his clause, which only, at least, he had alleged in illustration of the necessity of it, was, he apprehended, the case of Clonarmy, from which the right hon. baronet had presented a petition a few weeks ago. Now, this case of grievance was as follows:—it was a parish of 1093 acres, inhabited by a considerable population, probably, therefore, good land, and the tax was, in the first year of its union with Castletown Delvin, 6¾
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557
Sir J. Newport
said, that there were two churches within ten miles of his house, which were suffered to go to ruin; and when a remonstrance was made to the then diocesan on the subject, he treated the representation with neglect. The consequence was, that the Protestants left the place; and those churches were now ordered to be rebuilt at the expense of the Roman Catholic inhabitants.
Mr. Goulburn
said, that the duties of the clergy in Ireland were now, at a moment of peculiar delicacy and difficulty, discharged in a manner which, when compared with any former period of history, redounded highly to the credit of the established church.
The amendment was negatived.
Mr. Grattan
said, he rose for the purpose of submitting a clause to the committee, which he should think himself in some degree criminal if he did not propose. The object of it was, to enable such parishes as might be so disposed, to make an assessment for certain classes of the poor. This had been done in several parishes in the county of Armagh, and no inconvenience was found to result from it. The priest very willingly cooperated with the rector, and great good was thus produced. It would be desirable that parishes should at least have the discretion of making such provision if they should think fit.
Mr. Croker
thought it would be better if the hon. member brought forward the proposition in some way more calculated to excite attention. It was a subject of importance, and worthy of more consideration than could be given to it at present.
Mr. J. Smith
said, he had for some time been endeavouring to ascertain what the state of the poor in Ireland was. The subject was worthy of serious consideration, and he could not now allow any clause of the kind to pass, unless accompanied by a full inquiry into the state of the poor of Ireland. He hoped, therefore, that his hon. friend would withdraw it for the present. It was matter of serious charge against the government, and against the committee which had been sitting for two years, that they instituted no inquiry into the subject. The committee omitted what they were bound to have done, by making no report on the state of the poor.
Sir R. Heron
said, he never would consent to entail upon Ireland the additional misery of a system of poor-laws. In a
558
The clause was withdrawn, and the House resumed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, April 25 1826.
PROMISSORY NOTES LOCAL PAYMNTS
The Marquis of Lansdow having moved the order of the day for oing into a committee on this bill,
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that, as far as he understood the principle of this bill, he entirely concurred with it. That banks should pay at the places where their notes were issued, and that this should be done, not only by the chief banks, but by all the principal branch banks, was a proposition to which he perfectly agreed, both on the ground of principle and expediency. But, he confessed that he found many objections made to the application of this principle at present; and he also perceived many difficulties in the way of carrying it into immediate effect. It was, therefore, well worth the consideration of the noble lord who had introduced this measure, and of the House, whether it would be proper to proceed with it at present. A very important branch of the subject to which the present bill related had been referred to the consideration of a committee. He meant the question relative to the currency of Scotland and Ireland. Much evidence had been given before that committee, which it would be important for their lordships to consider when the report should be laid on their table. Now, whether the report might be made or not, there was, he thought, no probability that any legislative measure could be founded upon it this session. For this reason, he was of opinion, that it would be better to postpone the present bill until after the inquiry now going on was completed. When the result was before their lordships, as it would be next session, they would have an opportunity of considering the whole subject. A bill had gone down to the other House. He meant the measure which their lordships had passed, authorizing the establishment of chartered companies in this country. He had anticipated that that bill would have a salutary operation, and that opinion had not been hastily taken up. The effect of the
559
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, he knew not what might be the merits of the bill now in progress through the other House, nor did he know in what form it might come before their lordships; but of this he was convinced, that the measure, if once adopted, must be ruinous to Scotland. Ireland was differently circumstanced from Scotland, with regard to the banking system. There were in Ireland notes of the provincial banks, as well as those of the bank of Ireland, and that too in one and the same town. But it should be observed, that the bank of Ireland had a decided advantage over the provincial banks; for its notes were made payable only in Dublin, whereas, the notes of the provincial banks were convertible into cash at the places where they were issued. In fact, the branches of the provincial banks were made engines for providing gold for the bank of Ireland; and this he looked upon as a very great hardship to the parties concerned. He thought it only fair that a clause should be introduced into the bill, empowering the provincial banks to have their notes payable at head quarters, upon the same principle
560
The Earl of Limerick
rejoiced to find that the measure proposed by the noble marquis was not likely to pass into a law this year. He believed that no measure was more pregnant with danger to the prosperity of Ireland than this; and he hoped, if it was introduced next year, that their lordships would not hesitate to put it down. He owed a debt of gratitude to Scotland for the determined opposition which the people of that country evinced on the occasion. The noble marquis had said, on a former occasion, that the Scotch wished to establish a Cordon Sanitaire on the frontier. Now he, for his own part, would willingly assist in the work. The notes of the provincial banks were eight-pence in the pound above those of the bank of Ireland, in consequence of their being convertible into gold at the places where they were issued.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he was not now prepared to discuss the question as to whether or not notes under the value of 5
l.
561
The Earl of Rosslyn
observed, that, before the Bank Restriction act, in 1797, the Scotch circulation was the same as at present, and yet that the Bank notes had not driven away gold from the borders.
The Earl of Liverpool
reminded the noble earl that, previous to 1797, the country had not been deluged by paper. The case might be very different now, as after the English counties had been so long accustomed to a paper circulation, the introduction of the Scotch bank-notes would be more easy. He agreed, how-
562
The Lord Chancellor
confessed that there would be a difficulty in legislating for the intermediate places between Yorkshire and the borders, as the notes being Scotch, it would be in their very nature to travel south [a laugh].
The amendment was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, April 25 1826.
TITHES—PETITION FROM ST. OLAVE,
Mr. Calcraft presented a petition from the Churchwardens and Inhabitants of St. Olave, stating that the differences respecting Tithes in that parish were as yet unadjusted; that an offer had been made by the parish, which had been rejected by the rector; that the whole parish contained only 175 houses; and that, chiefly owing to the differences which unhappily existed between the rector and the parishioners, the church was very thinly attended. The petition prayed, that the House would be pleased to take the premises into its consideration, and afford such relief to the petitioners as should be deemed fit.
Mr. Alderman Bridges
complained of the peculiar hardship of the parishioners of St. Olave, in having the question of tithes so long in agitation, while they had every wish for an amicable adjustment.
Mr. Ald. Wood
spoke of the enormous income enjoyed by the present rector—an income which was entirely too large in proportion to the size of the parish.
Mr. Hume
expressed his sincere regret to find that the affairs of this parish remained in their former unsettled state, and thought it a very great hardship that, with every wish for an amicable arrangement, the petitioners were again compelled to address the House. Differences on the subject of tithes were highly disreputable; and, if he were present, he would appeal to the Secretary of State to say whether it was expedient to suffer these parish broils, these scenes of tumult and disorder, to be thus continued, to the reproach of the church, and the interruption of harmony and social order. He had no hesitation in saying, that proceedings such as these were a reproach to the heads of the church, without whose sanction they could not be continued. In the present
563
Mr. Wynn
said, that, without offering any remark on the present petition, he could not resist the inclination which he felt to protest against the unjustifiable attack of the hon. member for Montrose on the conduct of the right rev. prelate, whose name had been introduced on the present occasion. The hon. member asked, why had that right rev. prelate interfered in an arrangement between the rector and the parishioners? In doing so, the bishop of London had only consulted the interest of the church of which he was one of the heads, to prevent an arrangement, the benefits of which should not be extended to the incumbent who might succeed the present. The bishop of London had not appointed the present rector, and therefore he could not have acted from any partial feeling in pursuing the course which he had taken. The hon. gentleman asked, why should this parish pay more than others? If the hon. member knew any thing of the state of England, he must know that parties in one parish might consent to an arrangement by which they might be taxed more or less than the inhabitants of an adjoining parish; and this arrangement might take place without any regard to the relative extent of those parishes. There were numerous parishes situated like that from which this petition had been forwarded; and he could not see that the present
564
Mr. Denman
said, that the right hon. gentleman seemed to have misconceived the observations which had fallen from the hon. member for Montrose. His hon. friend had said, that the present rector received upwards of 1,800
l.
l.
Mr. Wynn
said, he had no intention to enter into the merits of the question between the parties in this case. His only object in rising was to protest against the term "fire-brand," which the hon. member for Montrose had thought proper to apply to the bishop of London.
Mr. Calcraft
begged leave to say, that so far from any blame being attached to the bishop of London, he thought he had done as much to reconcile the parties as he possibly could, considering the station which he filled. The chief difficulty the bishop had to contend with was, to make a suitable provision for the future incumbents of the parish. He was the natural protector of the church, and was bound to see that its interests were duly guarded. It was his duty to protect the charge which had been confided to his care, in the same way that trustees were bound to watch over the property committed to their management. The state of the parish of St. Olave was certainly such as to call for the interference of the House.
565
Mr. Secretary Peel
expressed his regret that he was not in the House when the hon. member for Montrose had made use of such unwarrantable observations with regard to the venerable prelate whose name had been used in the present discussion. The member who could so far commit himself as to deal forth his invectives in that unwarrantable manner against a prelate who was not more distinguished by the exalted station which he filled, than by his piety and learning, grossly abused the privilege he enjoyed as a member of that House. Was it, he would ask, to be tolerated—was it manly or decent—to apply the term "fire-brand" to the venerable and respected bishop of London. Had the hon. gentleman, who had thought fit to use that term, been in a more exalted station than that which he filled in the estimation of the House, a more serious notice should have been taken of such conduct. And, what was it that called for the hon. gentleman's remark? The bishop of London had shewn the utmost anxiety to produce an amicable arrangement; and he had no other feeling, no other interest to advance than that which a sense of his duty dictated. Was it fair or just, then, to brand him with such offensive terms? The bishop had acted according to the best of his judgment in adopting the course which he had taken; and he had, of course, acted with a due regard to the interests of the church over which he was called on to preside. Whatever obstacles the settlement of the tithes question in that parish had met with, he was satisfied that the bishop of London had acted according to the dictates of his reason and his conscience, and that those obstacles had not been started by him from any unworthy motive.
Mr. Hume
asked, in what situation a parish was placed where every body said that the differences which unfortunately existed would have been settled if it had not been for the interference of the bishop of London? Such was the prevailing feeling in the parish. The petition stated, that the sum levied for tithes in the parish was only 100
l.
566
l.
l.
PETITION OF ROMAN CATHOLICS OF
Sir Francis Burdett
said, that in rising to present the petition of the Catholics of Ireland, praying relief from the political disabilities under which they so unjustly laboured, he felt he was not justified, under existing circumstances, in going at any length, or indeed at all, into the merits of the general question itself, the principle of which had so often received the sanction of that House. At the same time, he was anxious to avail himself of this opportunity to entreat the House to consider once more the deep interest which this subject was calculated to excite—to assure them of his own deep and unalterable sense of the justice of the claims of these petitioners—and not only of their justice, but of the sound policy, wisdom, and reason, of attending to them. As it was not his intention to bring on any formal discussion upon the prayer of this petition, it would not, perhaps, be altogether fair in him, were he, on the present occasion, to use the indulgence usually shown to the presenter of a petition, for the purpose of saying more upon the general view of the case, than that he seriously recommended the House to consider what reception they ought to give to claims so founded on reason and truth—claims, too, which never could be laid at rest until they were satisfied—claimswhich all who spoke with proper opportunities of knowing the real state of Ireland concurred in describing as interwoven with the best interests of six millions of people, whose national character stood so high for honesty, industry, and virtue, that its people to whom it was attached were described by the first minister of the Crown as being the most useful examples of laborious industry which were to be seen in
567
Mr. Brougham,
in seconding the motion for bringing up the petition, declared his cordial concurrence with the hon. baronet in every thing which he had said upon the policy, expediency, justice, and necessity, of conceding these claims. He also agreed with his hon. friend in the inexpediency of taking, on the present occasion, a more enlarged view of this question; which was a most judicious course for the great interests intrusted to his charge.
568
569
570
571
572
573
574
575
576
Mr. W. J. Bankes
said, that he would follow, on the present occasion, the example set to him by the hon. members opposite, in forbearing to enter into the general merits of this question. When the hon. baronet, however, had declared that his opinion remained unaltered, he (Mr. Bankes) felt it equally due to the consistency or those who thought with him upon this subject, to declare also that their opinions were unalterable upon it. And he regretted exceedingly that no convenient means had been afforded in the present session, of fully discussing the petitioners' claims; for he was satisfied, t\hat the public feeling, or rather the public opinion, would have then been unequivocally expressed against the proposed concession. Had this course been taken on the eve of the general election, the public would have known how to choose their representatives for the new parliament; and he confidently anticipated the result. It had been sometimes said, that the Catholics of this day were not of the same religion as those of the past. There was, however, one expression in this petition which set that matter entirely at rest; for the petitioners avowed the unaltered state of the Catholic religion. He believed that avowal, and gave firm credence to those who uttered it; and upon that fact he had always founded one of his great objections to the granting of these claims. It was an unaltered and an unalterable church; and was now exactly the same as it had been centuries ago. The hon. baronet had contended for the reason, policy, and justice of this question. For his part, he could not see either the reason, or the policy, still less the justice, of committing the care of a Protestant established church to Catholic members of parliament. Indeed, human nature must make Catholics who were sincere believers of the principles of their religion decidedly hostile to a church which they must feel was an innovation upon their own system, which they deemed to be infallible. As to the church of Ireland, he was quite satisfied it would not stand for two sessions in an unchanged state, if Catholics were admitted to seats-in parliament. Some hon. members might, perhaps, think such a change would be beneficial. He was of a contrary opinion, and thought it would inflict a fetal injury.
577
Mr. W. Smith
did not rise to prolong this discussion; but, when the hon. member declared his belief, that the Irish church could not stand for two sessions after the admission of a few Catholic members to seats in that House, he could not refrain from saying, that such a concession was what he did not expect to have heard from the hon. member; and he only lamented that a convenient opportunity could not now be afforded, to permit the hon. member to show how such an effect would follow from the introduction of a few Catholic members.
Ordered to lie on the table.
WEST INDIA PROPERTY—PETITION
Mr. Hume
presented a petition from Mr. Augustus Hardin Beaumont, a planter and slave-owner of Jamaica, but now resident in London, praying that the House might not pass hastily any measures respecting the West-India colonies, by which the property of planters and slave-owners might be injured. The hon. member observed, that the petitioner was, like the great body of the West-India planters and slave-owners, naturally apprehensive that his property would be much injured, as well by the measures actually contemplated with respect to the colonies, as by others, not so well defined, which were threatened. He sincerely hoped that no measures for ameliorating the condition of the slaves, might be passed, unless accompanied with a guarantee on the part of this country, that the property of the colonists should not be injured. Law was the protection of all property, and the estate of the nobleman in this country was not more entitled to such protection than was the property of the planter in the colonies. He thought that, upon this principle, the prayer of the petitioner was most reasonable. He stated, that he had acquired his property under the direct sanction of this country. He and other planters in Jamaica had repeatedly signed petitions to the legislature of Jamaica for bettering the condition of the slaves, and even of granting emancipation, provided
578
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he did not rise to offer any objection to the petition, still less to enter into any statements in answer to the hon. member's speech—a speech in which the hon. member had touched upon almost all the topics on both sides of this important subject. He was the less inclined to enter into the Question now, as, from there being no
579
580
581
l.,
l.,
l.
l.
l.,
582
583
584
585
586
587
Ordered to lie on the table.
ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN THE
Lord Nugent,
in explaining to the House the object of the bill which he had announced his intention of proposing, observed, that his first and principle object was, to render the judges of the courts of justice in the West-India colonies, independent of the colonial assemblies, by prohibiting them from receiving any salaries, fees, or emoluments, from the members of the Houses of Assembly. Those Houses, it was well known, were composed of persons who, whether in their capacities of landholders and agents, or of planters carrying on dealings with each other, or of planters and masters exercising a control over their slaves, had every cause to wish to ingratiate themselves with the judges, and were, of course, the least fit to be possessed of that kind of influence over their actions, which the power of granting them an allowance might be supposed to afford. His second object was, so to dispose the appointments, that a judge of power and authority should visit all the smaller islands, and thereby secure a thoroughly impartial administration of justice through all the colonies. For this purpose he proposed, that a chief justice, with two Crown lawyers, should be appointed to each of the islands of Jamaica, Barbadoes, and Antigua; and that while the chief justice, with two Crown lawyers, held constant sittings in Jamaica, the other two should make circuits, and hold sessions in the smaller islands in succession. The salaries of these officers he would wish to be on such a scale as would induce men of character, abilities, and integrity, to accept the situation without loss or degradation. By this means, he hoped to see that immense mass of laws which were in use in the West-India islands, known only to a few, and even by them imperfectly, reduced to one uniform, plain, and simple code, which every one interested in their operation might understand without difficulty. He intended, in the next place, to cut off from the high offices of justice all that connection with the properties of the landholders and planters of the colonies, which, he conceived, rendered them peculiarly liable to be influenced
588
589
Mr. Wilmot Horton
assured the noble lord, that it was the intention of government to undertake the task to which he alluded, and submit to the attention of parliament, as soon as possible after a proper consideration of the Report, such measures as they deemed advisable. Under these circumstances, he thought it would be unnecessary to enter at present into any consideration of the subject.
The motion was then withdrawn.
COUNSEL FOR PERSONS PROSECUTED
Mr. George Lamb,
in asking for leave to bring in a bill for the purpose of allowing persons prosecuted for Felony, to make their defence by Counsel, began by observing, that he could not consider the debate upon the motion of his hon. friend (Mr. R. Martin), on a former occasion, nor the division with which that debate was terminated, as shewing any conclusive sense of that House upon the question. It might, however, be thought necessary that he should explain why he had suffered two sessions to pass over without calling the attention of parliament to the subject; and why he pressed again upon an audience always reluctant to hear dry legal details, all the plain matter of fact of a twice-told tale. His reasons were to be found in his sense of the continued importance of his object, and his unchanged conviction that there was no good ground of defence, either from the practice of past times, or the inconveniences of the present, to be offered to the course which he intended to conclude by proposing. Every thing, indeed, since that time, had combined to corroborate the opinions he then expressed, and many individuals of weight and consequence had seconded those views—which, he contended, were founded on the principles of immutable justice. In alluding to the arguments which had been used on the former debate, he could not avoid expressing his surprise, that the Attorney-general, when he admitted the propriety of counsel speaking on behalf of persons accused of misdemeanours, had not thought it behoved him, from pure consistency, to extend the
590
591
592
593
594
595
596
The Attorney-General
said, that after the very full inquiry and ample discussion which this subject had undergone upon a former occasion, he trusted he should be excused if he declined to follow his bon. and learned friend through all the topics
597
598
599
600
601
602
603
Mr. John Williams
supported the motion. He said, that the objections which had been made to it had failed to convince him that it ought not to receive the sanction of the House. He was glad to hear his hon. and learned friend, the Attorney-general, renounce the authority of notions which had once been looked up to with unquestionable reverence, and which he did not now hesitate to pronounce antiquated. When he heard this, and reflected upon the slowness with which improvements had been effected in all those institutions which were considered the most valuable, he was still more convinced, that no sufficient reason existed for further postponing that amelioration in the mode of administering criminal justice which it was now sought
604
605
Mr. Secretary Peel
commenced by expressing his dissent from the proposition which had been submitted to the House. Two years ago the same subject had been under discussion, when the deliberations upon it were conducted with so much ability and acuteness, that he must confess—although he was aware that in doing so he should incur the charge of weakness—his opinion had oscillated, and he had entertained some doubts on the question. He thought, in the then state of his mind, that it would be better and more safe to give the benefit of those doubts to the existing system, and he had accordingly voted against the motion. The subsequent reflection and examination which he had bestowed on the subject had convinced him that he was right. He regretted that he could not on this occasion associate himself with the hon. and learned mover in the labour of reforming the legal institutions of the country; but he felt at the same time that he should little deserve the flattering opinion which the hon. and learned gentleman had expressed of him, if he suffered himself to be influenced by that consideration alone, and without the sanction of his judgment. In stating the impression which he felt on this subject, he must claim for himself to be free from all professional prejudices. As far as his own interest was concerned, the alteration now proposed would be extremely satisfactory; because it would lighten some part of that which he now felt to be the most painful part of his duties. He meant the revision which he was often compelled to make of the sentence, between the period at which it had been pronounced and its execution, when he was compelled either to decide in a few hours, or to grant a respite which might give rise to hopes wholly without any reasonable foundation. He should not object to the alteration, because it was an innovation upon a practice which had been sanctioned by years; for that would come with an ill grace indeed from
606
607
608
609
Mr. Horace Twiss
said, that in assenting to the motion, he was not influenced by any consideration of its probable effect upon the number of acquittals; the true object being, not to acquit the greatest number of prisoners, but to secure the greatest number of right verdicts. He should, therefore, instead of inquiring whether this change of the law would be a gain to prisoners, inquire only, whether it would be a gain to public justice? He doubted, whether the law, on which a general encomium had been passed by his hon. and learned friend, the Attorney-general, was a law that provided fairly for prisoners on trial. His right hon. friend who spoke last, had truly defined it, when he spoke of it as a law, that allowed counsel to the prisoner on every issue but the main one. While it gives to the accuser the right of stating his case to the jury by counsel, it denies the same right to the accused, and then compensates this injustice to the prisoner, by the still greater injustice to the country, of allowing unsubstantial objections to the indictment. Any statement on the merits must be made by the prisoner's own lips. But the prisoner might be disabled by illness, blindness, deafness, or some other such visitation. If there were such a disability in a majority of cases, the legislature would, no doubt relax the law. Why then, in the majority of cases, this ground of relaxation does already exist: for, if the prisoner be placed in a situation, the terrors whereof are such as would take away from any average man the common resources of the human mind and strength—if this be a condition to confound and stem the sight, and the hearing, and the speech of any ordinary man, what matters it, in that alarming moment, whether those needful organs and senses have been denied to him by nature, or
610
611
612
613
614
615
Mr. R. Martin
said, he could not but congratulate the House that this bill was now likely to pass into a law, though he could not help reminding them, that among the offences of "petty legislation" with which he had been charged, was an attempt of his to introduce this very principle into our laws. Three times had he tried to get it a hearing, and three times had he failed. Still, however, he could not refrain from congratulating the House and the country on its present introduction, and on the eloquence which had been displayed in its support. The exhibition of that eloquence proved that he was not unwise when he had requested the hon. member for Dungarvon to afford it his patronage, and the success of his recommendation would encourage him to submit some of the other bills which he wished to introduce to the care of that hon. member and of his friends. He trusted that by pursuing this system some of the bills, which had been so much reprobated as his, would, when he had left that House, or perchance the world, be introduced under the management of abler hands, and would sometime or other, the sooner the better, become the law of the land. When he had vainly attempted to introduce the principle of the present bill, he had adduced an instance of hardship upon the prisoner which could not have existed
616
l.
l.
617
Mr. Tindal
said, he could not suffer the important question then before the House, to pass to a division without expressing his opinion upon it. From all that he had heard or learned on the subject, he was led to consider—and in which opinion he was sure he should have the concurrence of the majority of the hon. gentlemen who heard him—that all the arguments that had been brought forward in support of the proposed measure were more specious and plausible than valid and substantial. He was of opinion, that the proposed bill would not only not be a benefit, but would be the greatest mischief to a prisoner. What was the state of the law at present? A prisoner had the right to have counsel assigned him, to argue any points of law that might arise in his favour. He was also entitled to their aid to cross-examine the witnesses against him—to select, to marshal, and to examine his own witnesses, and to make what comments were necessary on the evidence as it proceeded. All, therefore, that was wanting was, that the counsel should make a speech to the jury in behalf of the prisoner, in the same manner as the counsel for the prosecutor had already made one against him. Now, what was the nature of the speech of the prosecutor's counsel? It was nothing but a plain statement of facts, unadorned by any attempts at eloquence, and unaided by any appeals to the passions of the auditors. If it were otherwise, it would instantly be put down by the judge. The evidence was then adduced; and, after the points of law, if there were any, had been argued, the facts were summed up by the judge, who left them to the jury in the most unbiassed and unimpassioned manner. His summing up, too, was always accompanied by a direction that, if the circumstances were esteemed doubtful, the verdict, should be in favour of the prisoner. Could there be any method more favourable in its nature to the party accused? He thought not. Yet it was said, that the prisoner would stand in a better situation if his counsel was allowed to address the jury. Now, the first objection which struck him was this, that the immediate consequence of this must be, a change in the character of the counsel for the prosecution; who, instead of being, as now, a minister of justice, would become the advocate of a party. Feeling conscious that he was to be opposed by the opposite counsel, it was not likely that he
618
619
620
621
Lord Althorp
supported the motion, and contended, that, however the measure might be condemned in theory, it would, in practice, prove advantageous to persons brought for trial before our courts of
622
Mr. Scarlett
began by adverting to the opinions which he had formerly held upon the subject. He then thought, that a change in the administration of the law, in this particular, was not called for. He had, however, given the subject very mature deliberation; and, if that opinion which he now held was erroneous, he could safely say that the error did not arise from any want of attention to the subject, or insensibility to its importance. He would own, however, that he then felt inclined to distrust his own opinion, inasmuch as every one knew how prone the human mind was, to be overcome by prejudice, and to think that practice best to which it had been accustomed. The chief argument which had weighed with his mind, was, that the proposed change would tend more to the conviction of prisoners than the present, and in that respect be disadvantageous to them. He would own, however, that that was not a just reason; and in what he would now say upon the subject, he should be careful to build more upon practice than upon theory. His learned friend who spoke last, had very justly said, that the present practice was so conducted as to prevent the appearance of any of that passion or eagerness in the address of the prosecutor, which was likely to lead away the minds of the judge and jury from the real facts of the case; but, if this was a good ground for the present practice in criminal cases, why not apply it to civil cases also? The investigation of truth was the object in both; and, if the practice and the results were good in the one, they must also be good in the other. There could be no distinction made between the two. The
623
624
625
The Solicitor-General
opposed the introduction of the bill. From the discussion which had taken place on the subject, he was sure it would be evident, as well in the House as out of it, that the question had formerly been decided upon its own merits, and not with any reference to the quarter from whence it originated. The proposal to give counsel to prisoners involved an apparent advantage, which, when examined, would prove to be only apparent, whilst the practice was calculated to introduce many evils and inconveniences. For his own part, he had never heard of that dissatisfaction at the course of justice in the criminal courts, of which an hon. member had spoken. He was quite satisfied, and so he thought was the country, with the manner in which prisoners were tried and convicted under the present system of law; and rather than agree to give the prisoner counsel, he would prefer abridging the power of the prosecuting counsel to make a speech in opening the case to the jury. If counsel were given to prisoners in cases where innocence was a matter of doubt, conviction would, in his opinion, be more certain. Some gentlemen were for the measure, because it would give the prisoner a greater chance of escape; others took an opposite view, and supported it because it would lead to more convictions. They were antipodes to each other in argument, and yet both were found on the same side. If there were any disposition in the public to be discontented with our mode of proceeding in criminal trials—if the public called aloud for a change—he should think that a reason for taking the subject into consideration. But he had no reason whatever to suppose that the public were displeased with our criminal proceedings. The learned member for Knares borough, whom he did not then see in his place, had presided over an elaborate inquiry, by a committee of that House, into our criminal law; and in his report there was nothing stated that could induce him to believe that the public at large desired a change. He believed, with his learned friend, that if prisoners had counsel, our criminal courts would be degraded into arenas, where the
626
Mr. Brougham
observed, that he, as well as his hon. and learned friend, the member for Peterborough, had not, strictly speaking, changed his opinion, but he had a stronger impression in favour of the measure than he entertained before. Formerly, he had an impression similar to that of the hon. and learned gentleman opposite, though not so strong as he had expressed it this night; but, after the fullest consideration, he had decided in favour of the bill. He complimented the right hon. Secretary of State for the candour which he had manifested towards this bill, allowing it to be one untinged with party. It had been stated that his hon. and learned friend, the member for Peterborough, entertained an opinion that the administration of criminal justice had not the confidence of the people. But he had understood his hon. and learned friend to refer to this particular point—that a prisoner was left unprotected when pressed by the eloquence of a counsel against him; that the people present in court, thinking that the prisoner had not been fairly treated, went away dissatisfied if he was convicted, and satisfied if he was acquitted, though he might be guilty. The hon. and learned gentleman opposite said that, notwithstanding the opportunities he had of hearing complaints from prisoners, he had never heard this alleged as a complaint. Of course the complaints urged were consistent with the existing system—such as that their counsel had not called certain witnesses, or that facts which made an impression upon the jury had not been explained. They were matters common to every system of law, not complaints against the system itself. This argument, therefore, went for nothing. There was no man, who visited our criminal courts, who did not see the fearful odds against a prisoner; a counsel speaking against him, and no one who could speak for him, and who could only get in a fact by that side-wind procedure, which had been so ably described by his hon. and learned friend. They were obvious to all those who attended our criminal courts, and they did leave an impression that justice was not administered to prisoners. His hon. and learned friend, the member for Peterborough, confirmed the statement of his hon. and learned friend who introduced this subject, and shewed that it was not
627
628
629
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that the lateness of the hour, and the full and able manner in which the subject had been already discussed, would be a security to the House that he would not occupy much of its time in stating the grounds upon which he would vote against the introduction of this bill. He had paid the greatest attention to what had been said on the subject, on one side and the other, and could not help applauding the very candid manner in which the discussion had been conducted. But if the hon. and learned member for Peterborough, and the hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last, had once entertained great doubts on the question, and if they came to the discussion of it with doubts only diminished, the doubts of the hon. and learned gentleman, who spoke last, being more diminished than those of the hon. and learned member for Peterborough; if such was the state of their minds, surely it might be permitted to an unlearned person, like himself, who came to the consideration of the question with a disposition favourable to the system at present prevailing, still to doubt whether the proposed change would be beneficial. It did appear to him that, with respect to such a measure as this, even in the state of doubt which had been admitted to exist, the natural course would be, to oppose the introduction of the bill, in order to prevent further discussions, which could lead to no useful result. The balance, even upon that view of the case, preponderated in favour of the present practice; but, although the balance had been equal, still he would have thought it right to oppose the change, because the present practice ought to be continued, unless the balance decidedly preponderated against it. He had heard no good arguments out of the House for the projected change, but had found, on the contrary, that the general opinion was against it. He did not mean to say, that this was conclusive, but he did say, that no change ought to take place, until those best competent to judge were clearly convinced of its expediency and propriety. Much the safer course was, to maintain
630
Mr. Denman
said, that, after the arguments he had heard by gentlemen on both sides of the House, and having expressed his opinion two years ago upon this bill, he had little to offer to the House. He was happy to perceive that his former arguments had made two converts, and that since the last time when this question had been agitated, his learned friends, the member for Winchelsea and the member for Peterborough, had both come into his opinion. It had frequently occurred that counsel had declined to conduct a prisoner's case where no doubt existed as to his guilt. The course practised was, to leave him to the clemency of the judge, and the justice of the country. There was another case of a peculiar nature in which the assistance of counsel would be absolutely requisite—he meant in the case of a prisoner being deaf and dumb.
631
632
633
The House divided; for the motion 36: against it 105. Majority 69.
List of the Minority.
Althorp, visct.
Lushington, S. Dr.
Bernal, R.
Langston, J. H.
Browne, Dom.
Maberly, W. L.
Brougham, H.
Monck, J. B.
Baring, sir T.
Martin, R.
Calthorpe, hon. F.
Newport, sir J.
Crompton, S.
Nugent, lord.
Duncannon, visct.
Parnell, sir H.
Denman, T.
Rumbold, C.
Drummond, H.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Ebrington, visct.
Rice, T. S.
Evans, Wm.
Robinson, sir G.
Grattan, J.
Scarlett, J.
Grant, J. P.
Twiss, H.
Honywood, W.
Tennyson, C.
Howard, Hy.
Wilson, sir R.
Hume, J.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Tellers.
Jervoise, J. P.
Lamb, hon. G.
Keckwith, S. T.
Williams, John.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, April 26 1826.
COUNTY ELECTIONS.
Mr. Sykes
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to declare the rights of freeholders in separate districts, or counties corporate, to vote at the election of knights of the shire of the several counties from which the said districts have been separated. The hon.
634
v.
Sir M. W. Ridley
seconded the motion. The bill, he said, proposed to go no further than to reinstate the petitioners in the rights which had before belonged to them. The Crown might establish a separate community, but could not deprive free-
635
Mr. Jones
supported the motion.
Mr. Littleton
did not see that any reasonable objection could be made to it.
Lord John Russell
said, that the petitioners were entitled to the right of voting for the return of members. He thought, however, that it would be better to confine their right of voting to the town itself, than extend it to the county at large.
Mr. Sykes
disclaimed any intention to confer a double right of voting. His object was merely to restore the ancient constitutional right.
Mr. Wynn
doubted whether this was a proper time for the introduction of such a bill. At all events, the hon. member ought to give the House sufficient time to consider the subject.
Mr. Sykes
observed, that he had given notice of his intention to introduce this measure some weeks ago. If it was a proper one, it ought to pass without delay.
Mr. J. Benett
observed, that this was merely a restoration of rights, by which nobody could be injured; and, since the right could not be questioned, the sooner it was restored the better.
Mr. Ellice
said, that a decision on the matter in question had taken place in a committee up stairs. The freeholders of Coventry had voted for the county of Warwick, and their votes had been disallowed. The county was under great obligations to the hon. member for bringing forward this subject, but he hoped the hon. member would not press it forward with such haste as to deprive him of the support of the gentlemen opposite.
Mr. Bright
said, that this was merely a declaratory law, and he only regretted that the hon. gentleman proposed to confine its operation to nine places. As to the double franchise, no good argument could be founded on that; for, he believed, there were few members of the House who had not a double franchise. The measure ought to be extended to all the places which had lost their ancient rights, otherwise the places not named might be deprived of their rights by implication.
Mr. R. Smith
thought, that the operation of the bill should be, in some degree, restrained; for, if it restored all the rights that lay dormant, it might, on the same principle, deprive electors of such rights as they had acquired by usage. It was clear
636
Dr. Phillimore
consented to the introduction of the bill, but would not pledge himself to support it throughout.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
ELECTIVE FRANCHISE—PETITION FROM RYE FOR EXTENSION OF.
Lord John Russell
rose, pursuant to notice, to present a petition from the inhabitant householders of Rye, for the Extension of the Elective Franchise to that borough. His lordship commenced by observing, that the town of Rye was a place of considerable importance, in which, while trade and commerce progressively improved, the elective franchise was shamefully restricted. The petition stated, that "the annual assessment for the town amounted to the sum of 3,156
l.
637
s.
638
639
640
641
642
643
644
l.
s.
d.,
645
646
647
Ordered to lie on the table.
BURMESE WAR.
Mr. Hume
said, that, seeing the president of the India Board in his place, he would take the opportunity of asking, whether, in the present state of the session, that right hon. gentleman was prepared to lay any papers before the House relative to the transactions that had taken place at Barrackpore? When he had last asked this question, the right hon. gentleman had stated, that the late Commander-in-Chief was shortly expected to arrive in this country, and that, in all probability, that officer would be able to give the desired information. He was desirous of knowing whether it was the intention of the right hon. gentleman to furnish the House with this information, and with any papers explanatory of the progress made by the British forces in the Burmese territory?
Mr. Wynn
said, that the question of the hon. gentleman referred to two perfectly distinct subjects. He had no hesitation in saying, with regard to the first point, that he did not think it expedient to make any communication to the House; as to the second point, certainly government had received despatches containing further information respecting the occupation of the island of Shapooree, which he intended to lay before the House.
Mr. Bright
complained that no documents respecting the Burmese war had been laid on the table of the House, and it appeared that none were to be, except with relation to the petty island mentioned by the right hon. gentleman. The House were bound to inquire into the circumstances of this war, which so deeply
648
Mr. Wynn
said, it was quite clear that the hon. gentleman had not given himself the trouble to read any of the papers which had been presented to the House. The hon. gentleman evidently did not know their contents. He was ready to give an answer to any specific question which might be propounded to him by any horn member, but it was not usual for persons who presided over the department confided to him, to give explanations as to news-paper paragraphs. If such was considered by the hon. gentleman to be the duty of any minister of the Crown, it was a doctrine perfectly new. He had never before heard of it, and did not mean to act upon it. He certainly thought that this was not a convenient opportunity for going further into the subject. The gazette would continue to publish, as heretofore, full information concerning the progress of the war. More would
649
Lord J. Russell
was not disposed to impute blame to any party, with regard to this important subject. There were, however, many questions connected with the war, which deserved consideration, both as to its origin, and the mode in which it had been conducted; and a still more important one, whether any opportunity had been neglected of concluding an honourable peace, which might have put an end to the sufferings and losses of our gallant army, and to the expense and perils of an arduous war. It was the duty of the House to ascertain that point from the ministers of the Crown. Certainly it was true, that the present government of India did not inspire that confidence which existed during the times of lord Wellesley and lord Hastings. There was a general feeling of dissatisfaction, which, he was afraid, was too well founded. He wished to give his majesty's government an opportunity of explanation as to that point; and if the right hon. gentleman would fix any day next week, it would prevent the necessity of bringing forward any motion for the purpose of obtaining it.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, April 27 1826.
NAVIGATION LAWS.
Mr. Ellison
rose to present a petition from North Shields, to which he wished to call the particular attention of the president of the Board of Trade. The petitioners stated, that they had embarked a large capital in the carrying trade, and that, though they objected to the Reciprocity Duties bill, they had not thought proper to petition against it; but from the distress with which they had been overtaken, they were now obliged to throw themselves upon the justice of the House, and to entreat protection against foreign competition. They prayed, that protecting duties might be imposed on foreign shipping; but he hoped that other means of relief might be devised, and that, instead of such a measure, the withdrawal of some of those burthens which pressed most heavily upon them might effect the same object.
650
Mr. Huskisson
begged to acknowledge the courtesy of the hon. member, in giving him intimation of the petition which he had brought before the notice of the House, A similar petition had been presented about two weeks ago, when he happened to be absent from the House. He had no wish that the petition should not have been presented, but he thought it somewhat hard that his accidental absence should have been made the ground for a charge of neglect. The truth was, that on that day he had been engaged till near five o'clock at his office on the business of his own department. He had then left to go to another place on business of the same nature, after transacting which he had come immediately to the House. It was quite impossible that ministers could be always in the House while petitions were presented requiring their presence, unless some intimation were previously given. He was sure that they would ill discharge their duty to the public by spending three or four hours daily in the House, while petitions were presenting, in order to take the chance of there being, once in a fortnight, some petition to which their attention ought to be called. He did not think that the presenting a petition was a very favourable occasion for information on a subject of such importance as the state of our shipping interests and our navigation. He would, however, bring forward a motion on this subject on Tuesday next, for the express purpose of laying before the House what he conceived to be the present state of the British shipping, and what had been the effect of the Reciprocity laws which had been alluded to. He hoped he should be able to convince the House, that the effects of these changes had not led to any of those injurious effects which some persons had anticipated. Such an exposition as he was prepared to give on the state of our shipping, and other great interests connected with it, would, he hoped, satisfy parliament, that these interests have not been neglected by those to whom they were more particularly intrusted.
Sir M. W. Ridley
expressed his satisfaction at what had been stated by the right hon. gentleman. He had no doubt that the facts would fully justify the measures which had been taken; but still, a public expression of them would be very satisfactory to the shipping interests.
Ordered to lie on the table.
651
REFORM OF PARLIAMENT.
Lord John Russell
said, that he rose in pursuance of the notice he had given, to bring before the House the all-important question of a Reform in Parliament. On two occasions formerly it had been his lot to bring this subject under the consideration of the House; but, on no occasion could he have found any period which, in one most material point of view, could have proved more favourable to the measure which it was his object to recommend for their adoption—he alluded to the tranquillity which prevailed at home, and to the pacific state of our foreign relations. In bringing forward the present motion, he had almost determined to let it rest upon the reasons which he had, upon the two former occasions, felt it his duty to urge upon the attention of the House. He had been almost resolved to leave honourable members to the effect of those considerations which, as well within the walls of that House as out of doors, had been operating on the minds of men, and, he was persuaded, preparing the way for sounder views and juster principles on this great national question. But more mature reflection led him to the conviction, that it would be much more expedient to lay before the House those principles and facts on which he founded his judgment—principles which, so far from consisting, as had been repeatedly said on the opposite side, of mere empty declamation, would appear when calmly stated to the House, to be nothing more than the simplest and plainest reasonings, intelligible to every mind, not perverted by prejudice, and to every heart not corrupted by interest. One of the chief grounds on which, when he last addressed the House on the question of Parliamentary Reform, he had rested the opinions and recommendations then urged, was, that it was a matter of paramount importance to adapt every government to the wants and wishes, the prejudices and existing state of the country, for whose use it was intended. This, so far from being a piece of empty declamation, was an axiom which no rational or impartial man could deny. Even the Turkish government was not unsuited to the people. The Sultan might, in the unlimited indulgence of his caprice, cut off the heads of fourteen men per day, without even the appearance or show of judicial proceeding; but he dared not so far depart from the established usages of the people, as neglect to appear before
652
653
654
655
656
657
658
659
660
661
662
663
Lord Althorp
seconded the motion, and in so doing declared, that he should almost abstain from observation, as he had no wish either to waste the time of the House unnecessarily, or to weaken the effect which must have been produced upon it by the argumentative speech of his noble friend. After that speech, which was full of historical research, and entirely devoid of empty declamation, he should not trouble them further than to say that, in his opinion, the present state of the representation was such, that the people had not that preponderance in it which was necessary to secure to them the certainty of being well governed. He did not mean to say that under the present system, they were not well governed at present—for able ministers could, if they pleased govern a country well, no matter whether it had or had not a representative government. The grand
664
Mr. J. E. Denison
rose and said:—
665
666
667
668
669
670
"—Neque enim plus septima ducitur ætas; At genus immortale manet, multosque per annos Stat Fortuna domûs, et avi numerantur avorum."
Mr. Ross
begged to assure the House, that it was not his intention to detain them at any length, but he was anxious to take that opportunity of stating how strongly he objected to any general system of Parliamentary Reform—a question which had been as often rejected as it had been brought forward, and which, he felt convinced, notwithstanding the exertions of a most zealous party, had gained no ground within the walls of parliament, and little, if any, in the country at large.
671
672
673
674
675
676
677
678
679
Lord Glenorchy
said, that if the proposition of his noble friend and those who voted with him, had been, to change the present system for a democracy, the objections of the hon. member who spoke last might have applied; but not only no such intention had ever been expressed, but the very contrary was their object; and instead of attempting to destroy the constitution, they only sought to preserve it, and to remove all that was prejudicial to it. He approached this question with a considerable degree of distrust and apprehension; for he felt that it was one of large and general importance. Indeed, he would not have trespassed on the attention of the House but for what had lately passed as to the state of the representation in Scotland, from which he inferred, that the particular grievances of that country would not be redressed unless a general reform of parliament was adopted. He had expected that the case of Scotland would have been considered on its own merits, as there were difficulties and peculiarities connected with it of such a nature as to induce the hope that even those who were hostile to the general measure would see the necessity of remedying the particular evils of the Scotch representation. But he was astonished to hear a right hon. gentleman declare, when the petition from Edinburgh was under consideration, that no sufficient motive could be proved to him
680
Mr. Hobhouse
rose and said:—
*
Mr. Speaker
; Since it appears to be the course of this evening's discussion, that the supporters, as well as the op-posers of the noble lord's proposal, should follow each other, not singly, but in pairs,
*
681
682
Nitor in adversum, nee me, qui cætera, vincit Impetus; et rapido contrarius evehor orbi:
683
684
685
686
687
688
*
*
689
690
691
692
693
694
695
696
"Of whatsoe'er descent their Godhead be,
Stock—stone—or other homely pedigree;
In his defence, his servants are as bold
As if he had been born of beaten gold."
l.
697
From
Members who vote.
For Ministers.
Against.
Both.
Not at all.
Total.
40
English Counties
25
37
10
8
80
12
Counties, and 12 town, in Wales
13
9
1
1
24
89
Cities and Boroughs where election is open
57
107
5
11
180
114
Cities and Boroughs where election is close
151
41
5
28
225
2
Universities
4
0
0
0
4
33
Counties, and 66 Royal Burghs, in Scotland
25
11
0
9
45
32
Counties of Ireland
24
14
2
24
64
33
Cities and Boroughs of Ireland
21
7
0
8
36
320
226
23
89
658
The simple inference from which statement is, that, as far as the people (properly so called) return members to this House, they do attempt a control on the measures of government, but that the government is enabled to counteract all their efforts by the members who sit for those places where the election is in the hands either of one individual or a small portion of the community; and the conclusion from both of these examinations is, that rotten boroughs out of the House, returning placemen to the House, are the real basis of parliamentary power. I wonder that any one should have the har-
698
mentioned in the return The right hon. the Foreign Secretary complained the other night of the great scarcity of that description of gentlemen in this House. Allow me to ask him, how many would he have?—Are not the eighty-nine enough? Add to these, that every actual heavy-armed placeman has one or two light-armed relations, on debates of emergency, usefully skirmishing by his side. That the eighty-nine are enough, we have the best possible proof. An analysis was made of the majorities and minorities on fourteen great questions discussed in the years 1821 and 1822; and from that analysis (which I hold in my hand) it appears, that the said eighty-nine, the salaried officers of the Crown, were the real combatants who gained the day in all those fourteen questions against the popular part of the representation. If this service was performed by the placemen now in parliament, an addition to their number would be a superfluous encumbrance.
There is another most instructive deduction to be drawn from a similar analysis of the voters on thirty-six questions, in the same two years; the result is given in the following table.
*
dihood to deny the fact: it would be far more manly, far more sensible, to admit the fact, and to defend it.
The defence, indeed, of the government by corruption, requires more courage than ingenuity; for I know not how any man, far less an Englishman, can reconcile himself to those practices by which alone, under the present system, a minister can hope to rule the parlia-
*
699
"God hides from all of beings but himself
That hideous sight—a naked human heart."
In fact, in this parliamentary government there is no other mode of maintaining or directing power than that which was practised by the Walpoles and the Pelhams of other times; and what was done then grossly and openly, must be done
700
It is all in vain for the Foreign Secretary to tell us, as he did the other night, that he would scorn to govern by placemen—that he would scorn to govern, except through the just confidence of the country, expressed by an independent parliament. That right hon. gentleman may, when he acts as he ought, obtain the just confidence of his country; but he knows full well the truth of what I have been saying—he knows that if he would wield at will what has been called the "fierce," but which I would call the tame, democracy of England, he must condescend to secure the usual support of parliament by the usual means—he must follow the example of his predecessors—he must do what was done before him, and what will be done after him, as long as the present system shall endure. In vain all his genius, in vain all his experience, in vain all his patient labour, in vain even that eloquence with which he delights his enraptured audience; they would be as but a feather in the balance, were the weight of ministerial patronage thrown into the opposite scale. What was his fate once, would be his fate again, were he stripped of the robes of power, and reduced to charm us only by the naked graces of truth and wisdom.
The right hon. gentleman has furnished,
701
I have, however, no difficulty in accounting for the feeling which induces ministers and their partisans to keep out of sight the machinery which moves their system;
702
"——Uncumbered with the venal tribe,
Smile without art, and win without a bribe."
Indeed, Sir, in proportion as the present condition of an English minister must be crossed with many cares and vexations, and obnoxious to the disgusts inseparable from the vile traffic in which, he deals, and the hard bargains he has to drive, so I cannot picture to myself any employment more noble—any employment more dignified, than that of a patriot minister in a reformed parliament.—Conscious of the purity of his motives—possessed of power sufficient to satisfy-any honest ambition—presiding over the destinies of a nation superior to any that ever yet challenged the admiration of mankind—with what honest pride, with what unmingled satisfaction, would such a minister expound to an unbought and unbiassed parliament the objects and the resources of his generous policy? How confidently would he appeal to the real representatives of the people for an approval, or, certainly, for a candid judgment, of those measures by which he had laboured for the happiness and prosperity of their common country. Their cheers would then not only play round his head, but they would reach his heart—they would be, at once, the proof and the reward of his virtue—they would give to him, living and present, those honours which are usually decreed only to the absent or to the dead—they would enable him to anticipate the judgment of posterity, and would, as it were, unfold to him that page of history in which his own name would be found recorded amidst the fairest triumphs of liberty and civilization.
These, however, may be thought the
703
Sir, I have lived to see many surprising reforms, which had I dared to foretel, I should have been ridiculed as the wildest and most enthusiastic of dreamers; I have lived to see our jury system and our criminal code revised by a Secretary of State; I have lived to see the wretched fabric of commercial prejudice and antiquated policy overthrown by another minister of the Crown; and, lastly, I have lived to see the important department of our foreign administration filled by a statesman who has burst asunder the bonds that chained us for so long to the despots of the continent, and made this great country a partaker in the conspiracy against the liberties of mankind.
Having witnessed this extraordinary revolution—having seen such unhoped-for changes, what is there to make us despair of bringing about that greater reform, which the best and the wisest of our countrymen have declared to be essential to our happiness and our permanent glory?
I am sure that the wish for reform is daily gaining ground. It is not to be expected that the same eagerness for any great change should be evinced at all periods; and, as in times of tranquillity, the evils of misrepresentation cannot be felt so severely as in less prosperous days, so the call for a reform cannot be equally urgent, under all circumstances and conditions of the country. It is only when the disease displays its most malignant symptoms that the demand for the remedy is most frequent and decisive. But, if I can show you, as I can, that, on all fitting occasions, the great mass of the people express an opinion favourable to the change in question—if I can show you that, when any large class of the community are distressed, they, and the nation
704
Nor need we despair. Already have
705
Lord Francis Leveson Gower
rose and said:—Entertaining as I do the intention of voting against the motion of the noble lord, I am anxious to explain some of the reasons which induced me to take that course. It is not without some regret that I place my feeble opposition in the path which the noble lord imagines to conduce to the amelioration of the government of the country. I believe that there are persons here—I know that there are those elsewhere—who, instead of watching what they cannot, and aiding what they ought not to resist, are always placing themselves in the way of those irresistible changes which the course of events is producing. I wish to explain why I deny that a concurrence with the motion of the noble lord is a test of a separation from that party, and exemption from its feelings—why, while I disclaim a voluntary blindness, I yet avert my gaze from what the noble lord thinks light—why I oppose his moderate views with more calmness, but not less decision, than I should those of a more sweeping and radical reformer.
706
707
708
"With them advance, retire, arise, or fall—
Nothing ourselves, and yet expressing all."
709
"What mortal art can do is here express'd,
But venerable age shall add the rest.
For Time shall with his ready pencil stand,
Retouch your figures with his ripening hand,
Mellow your colours, and embrown each tint
And every grace that Time alone can grant,
To future ages shall your fame convey,
And add more beauties than he takes away."
Mr. Martin,
of Galway, said, he could not let the opportunity pass, of making an observation upon one circumstance which I had been urged by the hon. gentleman opposite, as evidence of the defective system of representation; he meant the assertion, that, among the majority which had voted for separating the offices of Treasurer of the Navy and the President of the Board of Trade, there could be found the name of only one county member. Now he (Mr. M.) happened to be that county member [Cries of there was another]. He stood corrected. He believed there was the name of another county member in that majority, and he believed he could say, that that county member gave his vote as independently as he (Mr. Martin), or any other hon. member of that House. It had been also said, that the hon. members who formed the majority on that occasion were placemen. Now, he could say for himself, that he did not hold any
710
711
712
General Palmer
said, he had no intention of troubling the House with a speech upon the question; but considering the notice which had been taken of him by the hon. member for Orford, and other observations lately made upon the representation of the city of Bath, he was desirous of saying a few words on the part of his constituents and himself. As a friend to reform, although the representative of a close borough, he had stood in the same predicament as the hon. member for Calne, in his late attempt to amend the representation of the city of Edinburgh: but, whatever might be thought of his conduct, he had voted with a sincere desire to carry the question, and as he had done by Edinburgh, he would have done by Bath, had her case been brought forward. How far in this he bad consulted the feelings of his constituents, would be soon for them to determine; but considering the personal attack lately made upon them, he would take the liberty of observing, that the corporation of Bath had given the only example of a close borough, alike independent of the Crown, the administration, and the aristocracy of the country; and of which, as one of its members, he could declare, he had not a single vote at his command, but was indebted for his seat solely to the free will of the electors. It might be true, that the greater part belonged to the medical profession; but if honourable members would "throw physic to the dogs," he hoped, at least, they would give his constituents credit for their conduct, in not availing themselves of their unconstitutional power, to promote their private interest.
The Hon. William Lamb
said, that after considering the arguments advanced in support of the measure proposed by the noble lord, he was obliged, from conviction to vote against it. The great objection, which he had to the measure altogether, and the great ground on which he rested his opposition to it was, that he could not see, nor had any person pointed out clearly to him, what real benefit could be derived from it. But while he said this, he felt it due to the noble lord who introduced the question, to state, that he had brought it forward on better grounds, with more extensive information, and on sounder principles, than any individual had done who had previously brought it under the consideration of the House. Still, however, giving to the
713
714
After a short reply from lord John Russell, the House divided: For the motion 123; Against it 247; Majority against the motion 124.
List of the Minority.
Abercromby, hon. J.
Bentinck, lord W.
Allen, J. H.
Bernal, R.
Althorp, visc.
Birch, J.
Anson, hon. G.
Brougham, H.
Anson, sir G.
Burdett, sir F.
Baring, H.
Butterworth, J.
Baring, sir T.
Byng, G.
Barrett, S. M.
Calcraft, J.
Benett, J.
Calvert, C.
715
Calvert, N.
Maberly, W. L.
Carter, J.
Macdonald, J.
Cavendish, C.
Marjoribanks, S.
Cavendish, H.
Martin, J.
Clifton, visc.
Milton, visc.
Coffin, sir I.
Moore, P.
Colborne, N. R.
Monck, J. B.
Creevey, T.
Newport, sir J.
Crompton, S.
Nugent, lord,
Davies, T.
Ord, W.
Denison, W. J.
Osborne, lord F. G.
Denman, T.
Palmer, C.
Dundas, C.
Pares, T.
Dundas, hon. T.
Philips, G. sen.
Dickenson, W.
Philips, G. jun.
Ebrington, visc.
Power, R.
Ellice, E.
Pryse, P.
Ellis, hon. G. A.
Ramsden, T. C.
Evans, W.
Rice, T. S.
Fergusson, sir R. C.
Rickford, W.
Fitzgerald, M.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Foley, J. H. H.
Robarts, A.
Folkestone, visc.
Robinson, sir G.
Gaskell, B.
Rowley, sir W.
Glenorchy, visc.
Rumbold, C. E.
Gordon, R.
Russell, lord W.
Grant, J. P.
Scarlett, J.
Grattan, J.
Scott, J.
Grosvenor, hon. R.
Sebright, sir J.
Guise, sir W.
Smith, hon. R.
Gurney, R. H.
Smith, W.
Heathcote, G. J.
Stanley, lord
Heron, sir R.
Sykes, D.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Tavistock, marquis.
Honywood, W. P.
Taylor, M. A.
Hornby, E.
Tennyson, C.
Howard, H.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Hughes, W. L.
Tomes, J.
Hume, J.
Townshend, lord C.
James, W.
Warre, J. A.
Jervoise, G. P.
Webb, E.
Johnson, W. A.
Wharton, J.
Ingilby, sir W.
Whitbread, S. C.
Kemp, T.
Whitbread, W. H.
Knight, R.
Whitmore, W. W.
Labouchere, H.
Williams, J.
Lamb, hon. G.
Williams, J. P.
Langston, J. H.
Wilson, sir R.
Leader, W.
Wood, M.
Lester, B. L.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Leycester, R.
Wyvill, M.
Lloyd, sir E.
TELLERS.
Lushington, S.
Duncannon, visc.
Maberly, J.
Russell, lord J.
THAMES WATERMEN.
Mr. Alderman Wood
rose, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the better regulation of the Watermen of the river Thames from Gravesend to Windsor. The hon. member strenuously urged the claims of the body whose cause he had undertaken to espouse, to the attention of the House. He would boldly say, that no set of men were better entitled to the consideration
716
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that the hon. alderman had, some nights since, done him the honour to consult him upon the subject of his present motion; but he realty had not been able to ascertain, for some time after he had risen, whether the speech he was making had reference to that question or not. The statement of the hon. alderman upon that occasion, he had understood to be, that watermen were not at present permitted to ply upon Sundays, whilst there was another class who did ply and work upon the river. Upon that view of the question, he certainly had thought that a restrictive regulation of that description was necessary, especially as others were permitted to do what these men were interdicted. He then said, and he still thought, that it was too scrupulous an observance of the Sabbath to exact, under such circumstances; and he therefore, had declared, that he saw no objection to the worthy alderman's motion. He had, however, no idea that he meant to propose a measure of such minute regulation as that which he had proposed to the House. It appeared to him to a fleet the interests of so many different parties, that he could not but think that the' worthy alderman ought to postpone those regulations which went beyond the alterations to which he had alluded, to another year.
Mr. Alderman Wood
said, he should be very willing to accede to any wish of the right hon. gentleman upon the subject.
Mr. M. A. Taylor
observed, that the object of the bill was, to allow certain watermen to ply on Sundays. He wished the pleasures of the middle class of the people on Sundays not to be interfered with. He recommended his hon. friend to confine himself to that part of his bill
717
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he had no objection to that clause.
Mr. Ellice
said, he would recommend his hon. friend to bring in his bill for the sole object approved of. The grievance could not be too soon removed, and he was the more inclined to hope for the concurrence of the right hon. gentleman as he must have known, that watermen were frequently committed to Coldbathfields in consequence of their inability to pay the fines imposed on them for plying on Sundays.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
STEALING IN GARDENS AND HOTHOUSES.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that he had already intimated to the House his intention to postpone the bill for consolidating the laws relative to Larceny till next session; but there was one law—that relative to stealing in orchards—which he could not consent to leave in its present state, even till that period. By the law, as it now stood, a school-boy stealing an apple, a passenger casually passing along a road and taking a little fruit, was guilty of a felony; and the magistrate had no discretion, but must commit for that offence. The severity of this law prevented its execution, and it failed in affording that protection to garden property, which it was intended to afford. He meant, therefore, to bring in a bill to amend the law, and give a power to the magistrate to levy a fine treble the value of the property stolen; and where the party was unable to pay this to leave the magistrate the power of committing the offender to prison. The right hon. Secretary concluded by moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the law respecting the offence of stealing in gardens and hothouses.
Mr. D. Gilbert
expressed his approbation of the intended measure.
Mr. Sykes,
although he was glad to find that it was intended to repeal the act of last session, was nevertheless of opinion, that no new measure was necessary. The law which existed against malicious trespassing being adequate to the punishment of the offence in question.
Mr. Peel
was of opinion that the law against malicious trespassing would not extend to such offences as robbing in a garden. It was necessary to enact some other punishment than that which the law against malicious trespassing provided.
718
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
IRISH CHURCH RATES.
On the motion for bringing up the Report of the Irish Church Rates' bill,
Mr. Grattan
proposed a clause to enable vestries to assess their respective parishes for the relief of the poor.
Mr. J. Smith
said, that this important subject for the poor of Ireland had been most shamefully neglected by government. As a proof of this, he referred to the able report of the committee appointed to inquire into the state of the poor of Ireland. Not only had nothing been done to alleviate the miseries of the poor of Ireland, but nothing had even been attempted. In England there existed a great want of employment for the lower orders, and the evil had been materially increased by the influx of shoals of Irish labourers. This was not using the industrious peasantry of England fairly; and such an interference with the advantages to which they were entitled ought not to be permitted. He earnestly called upon the Irish Government to shew at least a disposition to mitigate the sufferings of the poor of Ireland.
Mr. Goulburn,
after contending that it was improper to insert such an important clause in a bill which chiefly had reference to other subjects, proceeded to deny that the Irish Government had shewn any indifference to the miseries of the lower orders. On the contrary, much had been done, and more attempted, for their relief; especially in encouraging and giving employment to the labouring classes, in ameliorating the general administration of the country, and in extending her commerce.
Mr. V. Fitzgerald
opposed the clause, and warmly reprobated the infliction of the poor-laws upon the inhabitants of Ireland.
Mr. J. Smith
said, he preferred the clause as a minor evil, compared with the greater evil of the wretchedness and destitution of the poor.
Mr. Monck
thought, that in every country where a high state of civilization had been arrived at, a redundancy of population was a necessary consequence. The effect of this was, in its turn, greatly to enlarge the pauper classes of the community. Now, he conceived it to be the duty of every nation, under such circumstances, to make adequate provision for those, whose pauperism was not their
719
Mr. Dawson
opposed the clause, believing it of vital importance to prevent the introduction of the principle of the poor-laws into Ireland.
The clause was rejected.
SPRING GUNS BILL.
Mr. Tennyson moved the third reading of this bill.
Mr. N. Calvert
objected to one of the clauses, which in its present form would have this effect, that, in the case of a man burglariously breaking into a house, and being shot by a spring gun, the party about to be robbed would be liable to an action for a misdemeanour, on account of keeping a spring gun in his house.
Sir G. Chetwynd
objected to the bill, on the ground that if it passed into a law, a person setting a spring-gun in his dwelling-house, garden, or hot-house, might be found guilty of manslaughter, and banished for life; and would likewise be liable to a civil action for damages. There was a manifest distinction between setting guns in woods or forests, and setting them in warehouses, dwelling houses, hothouses, and gardens. In most cases the guns were not actually set, but the threat was held up in terrorem to frighten thieves and poachers.
Mr. R. Colburne
objected to the bill; but protested against the supposition that lie, and the rest who opposed the measure, were deficient in humanity.
Mr. Secretary Peel
concurred in the measure. If a spring-gun was to be defended as a punishment for a trespass, a man might also defend the springing of a mine, by which a whole gang of poachers might be destroyed at once. He for one could not approve the power of punishing with death a trespass, which, even if a man were convicted, would only bring
720
Mr. W. Horton
said, he would have no objection to the bill if it were to last for only one year; by which time he hoped that some law would be passed for legalizing the sale of game; but he did not, without such a measure as that, wish to see this bill made permanent.
Mr. G. Lamb
said, that the only objection he had to the abolition of spring-guns was, that they sometimes shot those who had set them. He could wish to see the bill more perfect than it was; but still he would give it his support.
Mr. Goulburn
said, that he would support the bill, if it embraced the amendment of last year; namely, that the prohibition of the use of spring-guns should be limited to woods, under-woods, or open fields.
Mr. J. Smith
was in favour of the bill. He, for one, would wish to see the experiment made by an hon. friend of his (the member for Lewes) more generally adopted. It was that of behaving so kindly to his poor neighbours as to put an end to the necessity of poaching on their part.
Mr. Wynn
would vote for the third reading, and also for the amendment of which his hon. friend had given notice.
Captain Gordon
said, he would support the bill. It had been said, that the law of Scotland did not require such a measure. If that were the case, it would be unnecessary to include that part of the kingdom in it; but he could wish that some member, who knew the law of Scotland, would state what it was on this subject.
Mr. J. P. Grant
gave his assent to the bill, but objected to the clause, making death by a spring-gun manslaughter.
The House then divided; For the bill, 24; Against it 25; Majority against the bill 1.
721
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, April 28 1826.
TITHES—ST. OLAVE'S PARISH.
The Marquis of Lansdown
presented a petition from the inhabitants of the parish of St. Olave, in the city of London, complaining of the rector, on the subject of Tithes. He had been requested, he said, to present this petition in the early part of the present session, but as he was anxious that an accommodation should take place, he had recommended a postponement till a later period. An opportunity for a reconciliation had thus been afforded, which he was sorry had not been realized. The noble marquis then stated, that the tithes of this parish, which had been in the time of the former rector 6
d
s
s
s
d
l
The Bishop of London
thanked the noble marquis for the courteous manner in which his remarks upon the petition had been made. Among the charges brought by the petitioners against the clergy was one, that wherever the parishioners were engaged in a contest with the clergy there was no chance of justice for them. In this charge he was sure their lordships would not feel disposed to agree. The real state of the case between the petitioners and the rector he believed was, that the latter had the legal right to raise the rates upon his parishioners to the amount of about 2,400
l
s
d
l
s
s
d
s
d
722
The Marquis of Lansdown
observed, that the right reverend diocesan had undoubtedly acted in the best manner for the interests of the church in the course he had taken. He could not, however, so easily acquit the rector of St. Olave's, who was otherwise interested in the bargain which he was prepared to make with the parish. The petitioners were now in possession of a letter to prove that the rector was willing to bind himself and successor to take no more than 1,000
l
l
The Bishop of London
said, that with reference to the proposal mentioned by the noble marquis, there could be but one course for him to pursue, which was to stigmatize it with his most decided reprobation. When he said that the proposal itself was new to him, he ought to state that he had heard of it as among the many plans in agitation to bring the question to a settlement; but he certainly had not been aware that it had gone to the extent mentioned.
Ordered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, April 28 1826.
DEBTOR AND CREDITOR BILL.
Mr. Bright
presented a petition from the inhabitants of Coggeshall in favour of this bill. He took occasion to observe, that he had to apologize to the House for not having brought forward the bill relating to this subject at an earlier period. It was his intention to bring it forward on
723
Mr. Sykes
agreed, that this bill would be a most important improvement in the existing laws respecting debtor and creditor. He thought that the clause in the bill, which went to enable partners, if they thought proper, to arrange their affairs, without being obliged to undergo the expensive process of bankruptcy, would have the best effect. He could see no reason why the bill should not have a retrospective operation. There were many cases of parties who wished to settle their affairs, to which the application of this clause would be an object. He therefore thought that the bill should include all cases of compromise in future, as well as those which might now be in progress.
Mr. Bright
was willing to receive any suggestion which gentlemen would be so kind as to make with respect to this bill. All he wished for was, a full and fair discussion.
CORPORATE RIGHTS IN IRELAND.
Mr. Spring Rice
rose to present two most important petitions, signed by upwards of 40,000 Roman Catholics. The first petition complainted of the law of Corporations in Ireland as it affected Roman Catholics; and the second complained that the conditions of the Treaty of Limerick had not been complied with. All parties, whether for or against the question of Catholic emancipation, seemed, he said, to concur in thinking that the present time was not the most favourable for the agitation of that question. In compliance with that feeling, he would not at present enter into any discussion on those petitions, as they necessarily involved the general question of Catholic emancipation. He could, however, if necessary, prove the injustice and impolicy of continuing those religious disabilities to which the Catholic population of Ireland were subjected; and if it were necessary, he could also show that the complaints embodied in these petitions were founded on truth and justice.
Mr. Dawson
trusted the House would excuse his saying a few words, for not only did these petitions concern the parties by whom they were signed, but materially affected the character of the government and people of Ireland. These petitions were the production of the new Catholic Association, which, not, withstand-
724
725
726
Mr. Spring Rice
said, he regretted much the course which the debate had taken; but the responsibility must rest with the hon. gentleman who had just sat down,
727
728
729
730
731
Sir John Newport
said, that little remained for him to offer, after the triumphant answer given by his hon. friend to the speech of the hon. gentleman opposite. Indeed, attacks from that hon. gentleman upon the Irish Catholics for intemperance came with the worst possible grace; for, both in that house and out of it, he had been himself remarkable for heaping vituperation upon them. To follow up that practice on the present occasion, was very ill-advised, considering the official station which the hon. gentleman filled. Equally singular was it, that the hon. member, of all men, should have revived the worn-out attempt to bind Ireland by resolutions of a British House of Commons, when his constituents had eminently signalized themselves, at the time of the establishment of Irish independence, in resisting that usurpation, and had sent forth their volunteers to assert the cause of their country. He had, however, lived to see a member for Derry re-assert and venture to justify that gross and nefarious usurpation, long after the resistance made to it
732
Mr. Dawson
explained, that he only alluded to the acts of the English parliament, as illustrations of the mode in which the matter had been understood by the parties concerned. When confident assertions were made, unless something was said against them, it might be supposed that the House acquiesced in the accuracy of such assertions. The Catholics could not expect that they should, as in their own Association, have all the debate on their own side.
The Solicitor General
said, that whatever discussion had arisen, was provoked by the hon. member opposite, who had certainly taken a wrong view of the effect of the Treaty of Limerick. Indeed, until lately, this sort of argument in favour of the Catholic claims had not been thought of. The Treaty of Limerick was certainly not dwelt upon by the ablest advocates of the Catholics. He should, on the present occasion, confine himself to the record of his protest against the use of any arguments in behalf of the Catholic claims, founded upon a violation of the Treaty of Limerick.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that, not having been present at the beginning of this discussion, he would refrain from entering into the general argument, and confine himself simply to saying, that he by no means acquiesced in the view, that the privileges now withheld from the Catholics were so withheld in violation of the Treaty of Limerick. It would be time enough when that argument was formally urged, to combat it, which he should be certainly prepared to do; retaining as he did his original opinion respecting that Treaty, and not concurring in the assertion, that the admissibility of the Catholics to political power had been withheld in consequence of its operation. The petitioners themselves seemed doubtful of the extent to which they meant to press their argument founded upon the Treaty of Limerick, or on that particular article of it which was framed to secure them in the exercise of their religion, as far as was consistent with the laws of Ireland. Now, did they mean that by this provision they were to be free from molestation in the exercise of their religion, or did they construe it into an admission of their claim to equal eligibility to civil office? He rather; thought that they confounded both senses in their construction; for they asserted
733
Mr. S. Rice,
in reply, said, that this construction had been put on the Treaty of Limerick by some of the most eminent crown lawyers in Ireland. He should be most willing to argue the question on this ground with the right hon. gentleman.
Ordered to lie on the table.
BRIBERY AND CORRUPTION BILL.
Lord John Russell
said, that as the right hon. gentleman opposite had some objection to parts of this bill, and as he could not hope for any success in the other House, unless the measure had previously received the almost unanimous concurrence of this, he would postpone the measure till the next session; but he certainly would bring it forward at an early period then. At the same time, if it met the wishes of gentlemen opposite, he would consent to put his proposition in the shape of resolutions.
Colonel Davies
expressed his regret, that his noble friend found himself under the necessity of postponing his bill. It was a measure much to be desired, and framed upon principles which could not fail to recommend it to the friendly attention of the House.
Mr. Wynn
said, he had an objection that the House should do that by bill which they were competent to do without the assistance of any other branch of the legislature. He was willing, however, to concur in any effectual measure for suppressing the evils against which this bill was directed.
The further consideration of the report was then postponed for three months.
CRIMINAL JUSTICE BILL.
On the motion of Mr. Secretary Peel, the order was then read for the third reading of the Criminal Justice bill.
Mr. J. Smith
took that opportunity of requesting the attention of the right hon. Secretary to the defective state of the police of the metropolis, with respect to the apprehension of offenders. At present, notwithstanding the facilities afforded by the magistrates, there was great difficulty in urging the officers to their duty, without the expenditure of large sums of money. In a case that had recently oc-
734
l
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he understood the object of the hon. gentleman to be the establishment of a Board of Police, like that of the Customs or Excise, in order that there might be a regular gradation of authority in that department. He was, however, inclined to doubt the policy of such a measure. He did not consider it desirable to create any new officer with greater powers than those possessed by an ordinary magistrate. He questioned whether the erection of any intermediate authority, between the Secretary of State and the magistracy in general, would not be contrary to the principles of the constitution. The police of the metropolis he certainly did not think defective. One great advantage resulting from it was, that there were always magistrates at hand, to whom the inhabitants could apply for advice and assistance. If, instead of having eight divisions, one chief officer or board were constituted, the hon. gentleman would find he had not advanced one step towards his object. The alteration would only have the effect of complicating the system of police, and lessening the authority and responsibility of the Secretary of State.
Mr. G. Lamb
Mr. Secretary peel
agreed, that it was desirable that every facility for the escape of the guilty should be removed, if by so doing no security was taken from the innocent. On this principle, he saw no objection to the clause.
The clause was added by way of rider, and the bill passed.
WRONGOUS IMPRISONMENT BILL.
735
On the order for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. J. P. Grant
said, he felt it was impossible, at that late period of the session, to pass this bill through the different stages with the deliberation to which its importance entitled it. He was aware, too, that the right hon. gentleman had not been able to give his attention to the subject. He would therefore postpone it to another year.
Mr. Secretary Peel
regretted the necessity of deferring the consideration of a bill of so much importance, but his time had been so entirely occupied that he had been utterly incapable of attending to the measure. If, however, he did not give the hon. gentleman notice early next session, as to the intentions of government with regard to this subject, he would leave it to him to bring it forward at his own discretion.
Mr. Abercromby
said, that this was a question of the last importance, and he lamented, that, as the matter had been stirred, there was not an intention to proceed with it.
The bill was then ordered to be read a second time this day three months.
CHARING-CROSS IMPROVEMENT BILL.
Mr. Arbuthnot having moved the third reading of this bill,
Mr. Hobhouse
wished to ask the right hon. gentleman how soon these improvements were likely to be commenced, as it was of considerable importance to the householders, whose property would be affected thereby, that they should be made acquainted with this fact as early as possible, in order that they might make their arrangements accordingly.
Mr. Arbuthnot
said, that if this bill, should be permitted to pass into a law, the commissioners would feel it their duty to lose no time in carrying it into execution. He could not, however, speak accurately as to the time when these improvements would be commenced, until, by purchase or exchange, he gained possession of the buildings which would have to be pulled down. He should, however, feel it his duty to consult the public accommodation as much as possible. As he was up, he would take that opportunity of correcting a mistake which had gone abroad, respecting what he had said on a former occasion. It had been represented, that he had said, in answer to a suggestion that these improvements could
736
The bill was read a third time.
EAST-INDIA WRITERS BILL.
On the order of the day for the committal of this bill,
Mr. Denman
said, that the incompetency of the persons who had been formerly sent out to India, to fill the situations in which they had been placed, had been the cause of the most serious mischiefs, and had brought this country into great disrepute there. It was in order to correct this evil that the East-India college had been founded, and, in his opinion, the experiment had fully succeeded. The requiring of the certificate, that a party wishing to go out to India in the civil service had been properly educated for such purpose, had, in his opinion, had a most beneficial effect in preventing incompetent persons from being sent out. He could, indeed, have wished that the certificate had been incorporated in the bill itself. Some honourable members, and amongst them his hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, supported this bill as a means of getting rid of the college, which they considered a failure altogether. Now, he looked upon the college in a very different light indeed, he considered it as the only mode which had yet been devised of controlling that abuse of patronage which had formerly prevailed so extensively amongst the directors. He appealed to the right hon. secretary opposite, who, on all subjects, was a high authority, and particularly on the affairs of India; he appealed to him, whether he could approve the expediency of removing this only effectual check over that large discretionary power possessed by the company. He trusted the subject would not be left in the vague and uncertain state in which it before was. In this college he felt a deep personal interest that would not influence his judgment,
737
Mr. Trant
said, that all his experience contradicted the assertion, that previous to the establishment of this college, the persons sent out to India were uneducated. It was now many years since he and his hon. and learned friend opposite were schoolfellows at Eton; and many of the young men who had at that time received their education at that establishment, had since been distinguished in the service in India. In his opinion, the civil service had been very little improved by the establishment of the college, which had, he conceived, totally failed to answer the purpose for which it had been founded.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that his concurrence in the bill before the House was not founded on any apprehensions that the temporary suspension of the qualification from the Haileybury College, would lead to the destruction of that institution. On the contrary, he quite agreed with the hon. and learned member opposite, that, although, in former times, great men had appeared in India, yet the country had a right to expect that there should be some competent security for the instruction and education to be possessed by those who were sent out to India. The nation had a deep interest in the question; and had a strict right to be assured, that those who were destined for India should have some preparatory education previous to their departure. At the same time, he concurred with the hon. member behind him, that if there could be a guarantee for the general education of those appointed to offices in India, he might hesitate between the present specific and a more general plan of instruc-
738
Mr. Lushington
said, that, having had two sons at the Haileybury College, he was enabled to speak to the character of the education furnished there, and he must say, that it appeared to him that the system was excellent. One of his sons was reported to be qualified for the public service in seventeen days after his arrival in India, and the other in six months; and, when young men were thus prepared, he thought it was the best proof that the College fulfilled the purposes for which it was intended.
Sir T. Baring
said, he could bear testimony to the dangers to which young men were exposed during their continuance in Calcutta. They often imbibed habits which proved extremely preju-
739
Colonel Baillie
consented to the bill, because he considered it expedient to supply the deficiencies of the public service. The regulations of the bill were not intended, in the slightest degree, to injure the College, but simply to provide a sufficient number of persons possessing the qualifications which were requisite for such situations.
Mr. Denman
expressed his entire concurrence in the opinion of the right hon. gentleman with respect to the propriety of engrafting such an establishment as an East-India College, upon one of the Universities.
Mr. Wynn
said, that this bill was not brought forward for the purpose of diminishing, but of increasing, the qualifications of the young men who entered into the service of the East-India company. He defended the College from the attack which had been made upon it, and lamented that ninety-six was the greatest number of students that could be educated within its walls. There were only two plans by which the East-India company could obtain an adequate supply of efficient servants. One of them was, to allow young men to qualify themselves elsewhere than at the College, and the other to increase the number of young men educated there. Now, this latter plan could not be immediately adopted, since it would take some time to erect additional buildings for their habitation, and the company required an immediate supply of active servants. The first plan, therefore, must be acted upon for a time, and he conceived that much advantage might be derived from the competition which it would create among the promoters of the different systems of education for young men proceeding to India. He could not see any reason why a young man, who had gone through the usual routine of a public school, and had afterwards applied himself at the Universities or elsewhere to the study of the languages of India, should not be equally well qualified for service in India with a young man educated at the College. He could not forget that one of the company's most able servants, Warren Hastings, had been educated at Westminster-school, in the same form with Lloyd and Churchill, and
740
The bill then went through the committee.
EAST-INDIA NAVAL FORCE BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Bright
said, that notwithstanding the thin state of the House, he would take that opportunity of making a few observations on this bill. He knew and lamented the indifference with which all subjects connected with India were treated by the people of England; but, involving as it did, the question of the government over a hundred millions of people, it was entitled to the most serious consideration. One reason of that indifference was, that the Commons of England had no opportunity of examining very minutely into the matter, for want of the information necessary to enable them to understand it. An immense quantity of papers lately published by the East-India Company did, it was true, contain that information; but they were not before the House. He had, with great labour, waded through the whole of the mass to which he alluded, for the purpose of enabling him to form his own opinion on the subject; and he wished that it was placed in the hands of all the members of the House. He believed that the result would be extremely beneficial to the country, and useful to the interests of India. At present, the generality of the people of England knew nothing of the affairs of India, but what they learned from the gazettes. It was a fact, that the very last papers respecting the progress of the Burmese campaign, which were published in the London Gazette, were not official papers, but copies, or extracts taken from copies, of private letters [hear, from Mr. Wynn].
741
742
Mr. Wynn
observed, that the expenses of the war in India were paid out of the funds arising from the Company's territorial possessions in that country. By the Company's charter, the Indian government were bound to support 20,000 troops in India; and, if a war with any of the native powers should render an addition to that force necessary, then the expenses of that additional force were also to be defrayed by the Company. But a naval force, for the purpose of aiding the military operations in that country, being a new feature in their mode of warfare, had not been contemplated in the charter, and therefore the present bill had been introduced, for the purpose of regulating the method in which the expenses of that service were to be defrayed.
The bill was read a second time.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, May 1 1826.
CORN LAWS—DISTRESS OF THE MANUFACTURING
Lord King
said, he had a petition to present to their lordships which was deserving their most serious consideration, it was a Petition from certain Weavers at Manchester. It deserved their lordships' consideration, from the time at which it was signed, and the circumstances under which it was presented. The petition was distinguished for good sense and moderation; and the petitioners, he was happy to see, strongly disapproved of the improper conduct of some of the workmen in destroying machinery. They stated, that they did not conceive that their deep distress had been caused by machinery. It gave him satisfaction to learn, that the weavers who signed the petition could, at such a time of distress, perceive that their sufferings were not caused by machinery, but by the Corn-laws. They stated two very good reasons why the Corn-laws injured them. First, they stated that the Corn-laws prevented their getting food as cheap as they might otherwise get it; and secondly, that the Corn-laws prevented such other countries from taking our manufactures, as had no other means of paying for them than by corn. Thus their operation was twofold, and they injured the manufacturers doubly. Before he sat down, he must do the noble
743
The Marquis of Lansdown
did not rise to offer any observations on the contents of the petition just read. He did not wish to introduce any thing that was matter of controversy; on the contrary, he desired to avoid expressing any opinion on the particular question which was the subject of the petition. But he would, with their lordships' permission, take that opportunity of adverting to some circumstances which must be known to their lordships, connected, he was sorry to say, not only with the distress of which the petitioners complained, but a multitude of other persons, unhappily involved in the same distress. When he observed, from the state of the papers on their lordships' table, that it was in their power, as he understood it was the intention, of putting a speedy termination to the labours of the session, he wished to take that opportunity of urging on their lordships' attention, and on the attention of his majesty's ministers, the expediency of not allowing the session to terminate without making some provision to relieve distress that was so excessive as almost to induce despair. In any suggestion he might be disposed to make to meet that distress, he knew all the difficulties which he should have to encounter: he knew that taking any step to remedy, or even to mitigate such extensive evils, must be opposed by many obstacles; but, when he considered the peculiar circumstances in which those evils originated which now prevailed over so many districts; when he considered the many circumstances which took this situation out of the ordinary range of those occurrences; it was not desirable that parliament should interfere; and he knew well, and the older he grew the better he knew it, that parliament ought not to interfere to relieve those distresses, which would inevitably occur from variations in the seasons, and from changes in the relation of supply and demand; yet these suffer-
744
745
746
The Earl of Liverpool
said:—I feel myself called upon, not only by the observations of the noble marquis, but by the importance of the subject to which he referred, to address to your lordships a few words. I do not wonder at the appeal which the noble marquis had made; but I trust he will do me the credit—nay, he has done me the credit—to believe, that I, in common with every individual in this House, feel as he does for the unfortunate state of the manufacturing districts of this country—a state which no man can see, of which no man can hear, without being appalled at the distress that so widely prevails, nor without feeling the deepest regret at the unhappy events which led to it. In attempting, however, to provide a remedy for this distress, various considerations suggest themselves to the mind, with respect to any plan that may be adopted. If parliament were to interfere, on the ground that this distress called for its interference, I beg your lordships to observe, that it would be the first instance with the exception of Ireland, to which will hereafter refer) in which it has interfered, by a vote of the public money, for the relief of any local distress. The very merit of the existing system of the poor-laws—which some consider an evil, and which others consider a good—is, that those who are in distress have the means of obtaining relief, without coming for that relief upon the public purse. If you administer relief in one instance, there is no knowing where it will have an end; and I conjure you to reflect how often cases may arise, in which it will be most difficult to distinguish where you should give assistance, and where you should withhold it. I conjure you to reflect, that some years back, when very great distress prevailed among the agricultural classes, and you were called upon to apply some remedy, after minutely considering the matter, you were obliged to abandon all hopes of giving any effective
747
l
748
The Earl of Malmesbury
said, that he felt it necessary to offer a few words relative to the important observations that had been made by the noble lord at the head of his majesty's government. He had some time since stated, that if ministers conceived it necessary to admit into the market the corn remaining in bond, he would acquiesce in the proposal so to do. But with respect to the important measure of granting a power to admit additional quantities of corn, he hoped he might be allowed time to reflect on a subject of so much moment. He felt for the sufferings of the manufacturing classes, but he lamented deeply that they had been led to suppose that those sufferings arose from the present state of the Corn-laws. In Mr. Jacob's report, which he understood was of the highest authority, it was stated, that the foreign merchant, or corn-grower, including the duty of 10
s
s
749
s
Earl Grosvenor
said, that the Report of Mr. Jacob was most important; but, at present, it was only ex parte, and ought not to be calculated on as authority. He was not disposed to enter into this question, but he could not avoid observing, that the bonded corn now in the country was insufficient to do much good. He agreed with the noble earl at the head of the government, that it was inexpedient to recur to any parliamentary measure for affording relief in cases of distress, except under very urgent circumstances, but he conceived those urgent circumstances now to exist.
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, that he felt as acutely as any noble lord the distress of the manufacturers; but he thought it was indispensable, before they began to
750
751
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that the speech of the noble earl who had spoken last, made it necessary for him to say a few words. He agreed entirely in the opinion, that to ascribe the distress to the Corn-laws, was wilfully to blind one's self to the state of the country, and to all the proceedings that had taken place within the last twelve months. He had already said, that he thought some alteration in the Corn-laws ought to take place, but he would repeat now what he had said before, that, if there existed no other objection to the adoption of a permanent system than the present distress, still that of itself would render this an unfit time for such a proceeding. But then the reasoning of the noble marquis was far more cogent than that of the noble earl. The noble marquis argued thus; "Here is the distress, from whatever cause it has proceeded, and now it remains for your lordships to deal with it in the best way you can." If it had not proceeded from want of demand, what else could it have proceeded from? No man in his senses could deny that the great cause was overtrading. How else, if there had not been
752
s
s
The Earl of Malmesbury
wished to know at what duty it was proposed to introduce foreign corn now in bond?
The Earl of Liverpool.
—At 12
s
The Earl of Malmesbury
said, he perfectly accorded with the first part of the proposed measure; but as to the second, namely, the allowing ministers to introduce corn hereafter, if they thought it expedient, at the same rate of duty, he could not at present give his unqualified assent to this proposition, not having considered sufficiently the subject. He thought there might be many objections urged to it, and perhaps it would have a pernicious effect in the corn-market. It would be rather hard, he was inclined to think, on the agriculturists. He presumed that the measure would only be of a temporary nature, and that it would extend no longer than the meeting of the next parliament.
Lord Dacre
said, he was inclined to think, that a reduction of taxation would afford great relief to the country, and would be desirable to be resorted to. The occasion of the present distress, as viewed by ministers, he thought was so
753
Lord Calthorpe
said, that there could be but one common feeling as to the distresses which unhappily prevailed in some of the manufacturing districts. All who heard of them must feel sorrow. The proposed measure he conceived likely to be attended with beneficial, results. He was not prepared to say that any alteration in the Corn-laws would have the effect of preventing a repetition of distress. He thought much of the suffering might be deduced from a cessation of demand for the articles manufactured, and from
754
Earl Grey
said, he was in general desirous to leave the discussion of matters of this kind to those who were best calculated to discuss them, yet he felt it impossible not to make a few observations on the present occasion. He would not arrogate to himself any feelings occasioned by the present distress, different from those which were experienced by others. It was impossible to reflect upon it without its making the heart sick. It was dreadful to contemplate a population dying with hunger. In such a case, undoubtedly, the first duty was to give them succour. They had been called a deluded people. It was too true that their feelings and efforts were directed to the destruction of property, by which they themselves would ultimately suffer. The delusion must be corrected by reason; the violence must be suppressed by the rigour of the law; but at the same time, another and a more imperious duty was, to bring relief to that distress which was the foundation of those excesses. He would not distress himself by describing the sufferings of those individuals. It was sufficient to say, that they rendered the present superior to all common cases, and called imperiously for relief. With that view he thanked his noble friend for the enlightened speech in which he had brought forward his proposition, and he thanked him still more for the wisdom of that proposition;—namely, that their lordships should come forward with an address to the throne, praying for the application of a sum of money, or some other mode of relief, to the suffering part of the population. But, having performed that duty, which he admitted was not without its difficulties, from the danger of its being
755
756
757
758
Earl Bathurst
said, that, as to the distress of the manufacturing districts, and the necessity of alleviating that distress, there was, he believed, but one feeling throughout the country. Every where an ardent and anxious wish prevailed to give the suffering manufacturers whatever support could be given to them. If he had any doubt of the wisdom of the proposition made by the noble marquis, it was founded on his belief, that if it were acceded to, it would open the door for applications of this kind from time to time; and they would press so frequently on the country, that in the end it would be found to be a great national evil. Therefore, and therefore alone, it was, that he was averse from any measure of
759
760
s
s
s
s
s
s
s
The Earl of Rosslyn
said, it had been stated, that the noble earl did not attribute the existing distress to the operation of the Coin-laws, or to the present price of corn; but let their lordships look a little to what must be the effect of the conduct of ministers on the country; let them look to the opinions which that conduct must necessarily inculcate on the mind of every man who was suffering distress at that moment. The noble marquis had stated that this was a case of such excessive misery as called for immediate notice, and he proposed a measure for the relief of those who were suffering. But, what was the answer of the noble earl opposite? He said, "We cannot agree to that proposition, because it would form a dangerous precedent;" and he added, "but we
761
s
s
s
762
The Earl of Liverpool
wished to say a few words in explanation. It was not his intention to discuss the general question on this occasion. He must, in the first place, disclaim that he had ever asserted that the price of corn, or the state of the Corn-laws, had caused the present calamity. Not only did he think that they had not created the existing distress, but he believed that they had nothing to do with it. He had not stated, neither had he meant to state, that the measure proposed by him was intended as a measure of relief that ought to supersede that species of assistance to which the noble marquis had alluded. He had stated the objections he felt to the measure of the noble marquis—not as one which under no circumstances should be resorted to, but as one fraught with so much public inconvenience, that nothing but absolute and overbearing necessity could justify its adoption; and he came, in consequence, to this conclusion, that voluntary contribution and voluntary assistance were better than the measure which the noble marquis recommended. As to the question of the Corn-laws, he had stated before and he would state it again, that that question was not the cause of those distresses. They had, however, seen, that the price of corn had been rising for some weeks past; and, without doubt, if it continued to rise, that circumstance would act as a very great aggravation of the present evil. When noble lords argued this question, they ought to take this fact into consideration—that though there were individuals who had no employment at present, there were others who had some work for which they received a small price. Now, no person could say that the amount of wages paid for their bread was not to them a most material consideration. He would, therefore, contend, that the two measures—the one admitting bonded corn into the market, and the other
763
The Earl of Limerick
observed, that the present average price of wheat was 61s. Now, if the famine price of wheat was not below 80
s
Lord Ellenborough
said, he did not rise to prolong the discussion which had taken place upon this important subject. He merely wished to remark upon the inconsistent course pursued by his majesty's ministers. At the commencement of the session they had given it as their opinion, that that was not the time for altering the Corn-laws, or for entering into consideration upon the subject. Now, however, they were of opinion that the present was a fit moment for altering the Corn-laws, without consideration. Now, it appeared to him that his majesty's ministers were endeavouring to obtain that surreptitiously which they could not otherwise hope for, by taking advantage of the feelings awakened by the distress of the country, to achieve that alteration in the Corn-laws, in which, otherwise, the House would not be induced to concur. They pretended to talk of this as a temporary measure; but he cautioned all those who were hostile to any change in those laws to be on their guard against this insidious attempt to bring about a permanent change without inquiry, and under the cover of the prevailing distress.
The Earl of Darnley
dwelt upon the increasing distress of the country, with which he did not believe his majesty's ministers were adequately acquainted. He implored the noble earl over and over again, before he brought his measures to maturity, to look at the extraordinary circumstances in which the country was placed. The state of destitution in which
764
Here the discussion terminated.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 1 1826.
DISTRESS IN THE MANUFACTURING
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose to give notice of a motion for to-morrow, with regard to the distresses which now pressed down the working and manufacturing population of the country. He was sure, he said, that a measure of relief at the present crisis would come home to the feelings of every member of the House; and, whatever might be the inexpediency of interfering to disturb a measure which government had refrained from altering, there were moments when general expediency should give way to cases of particular emergency. Under the existing distresses, it was the intention of government to propose to the House a measure the least pregnant with evil, and the most calculated to do good. In the neighbourhood of those districts where the distresses most generally prevailed, there was a large quantity of corn in bond, which, by the existing law, could not now come into consumption. On a late occasion, when the corn question was debated in the House, government had decided, that no alteration should this year be made in the Corn-laws; and the determination was made in the firm persuasion that the present was not the time to bring the measure forward; and their opinion on that point was still the same. It did appear, however, that, under the present painful circumstances, a measure might be resorted to, without in any degree prejudicing the general question. It was therefore the intention of government to propose a bill to enable the
765
s
766
Mr. Tierney
rose only for the purpose of saying that he felt the most perfect satisfaction at what he had heard from the right hon. gentleman. He entirely concurred in all that he had stated. He trusted that the proposition would meet with the unanimous concurrence of the House; for this was an occasion on which it was peculiarly desirable that no discussion that could possibly savour of disagreement might occur.
Mr. Philips
said, that he also felt great gratification at hearing that it was the intention of government to propose a measure likely to be productive of such important benefit to the country. He was not disposed to enter at present into any discussion; but he could not avoid stating what he had recently heard from a very intelligent gentleman connected with the manufacturing districts. It was his own opinion, that the stock of cotton in the possession of the manufacturers was not very great, owing to the very high prices to which it had been artificially raised last year. In this opinion, he was fully borne out by the statement of the gentleman to whom he alluded. That gentleman stated further, that his House was ready to go on with business, if there was any prospect of obtaining returns; but at present the state of the exchanges was not favourable, and remittances could not be made without a certain loss. He added, that, if an importation of foreign corn was allowed, it would afford an opportunity of obtaining a vent for their produce, and the advantage which the manufacturers desired by this measure was not so much the lowering of the price of corn here, as the obtaining a mode of disposing of their goods elsewhere. Though he would not offer any objection to the temporary measure now proposed, which he felt would be productive of much good, yet he thought the most effectual way to prevent a recurrence of the calamities under which the manufacturing districts were now suffering, would be to allow as a permanent measure the importation of corn under certain fixed duties.
Mr. Canning
rose for the purpose of
767
Mr. Philips
said, he so understood it, but he had taken the opportunity of stating the opinion of a very intelligent manufacturer, that the importation of corn would be a most important advantage; not so much, as it would lower the price of corn, but as it would afford the means of a vent for a large proportion of manufactured goods.
Mr. Ellice
rose for the purpose of asking the right hon. gentleman, whether the present was the only measure which government had to propose to the House? He was aware of the steps which had been taken to repress any violent proceedings in the manufacturing districts, and he concurred in their propriety; for, what ever was the cause of the distress there, any attempts upon the security of property ought not to be suffered to exist for one hour. He was satisfied that the power to put an end to violent proceedings was in good hands, and that it would be used with firmness and moderation. But, at the same time, that violent proceedings should be repressed, some immediate relief should be given to the great sufferings which pressed on the unfortunate manufacturers of those districts. Aware of the great extent and severity of the distress, he had come down to the House that day, to ask whether it was not the intention of government to grant some direct and immediate relief; and, if he should be answered in the negative, to give notice of a motion for the grant of a specific sum for that object, and introduce the subject on the discussion of the motion of his hon. friend (Mr. Hume) on the state of the nation, on Thursday. The mere act of making corn more plentiful and cheap would not relieve the wants of the
768
Mr. Canning
said, it was not at present the intention of government to submit any other measure to the House than those of which he had already given notice. He did not, however, think proper to enter at that moment into any discussion of the grounds on which the decision of government rested.
Mr. Ellice
said, that under these circumstances he would reserve himself until he should hear the propositions of ministers to-morrow, and exercise his own discretion as to whether he should bring forward the subject in a separate motion on Thursday.
Mr. E. Wodehouse
expressed his full concurrence in the measure proposed by government, and agreed also that the present was not the fit moment for entering into a discussion upon it. At the same time, after what had fallen from the hon. member for Wotton-Bassett, he could not confine himself to a simple acquiescence in the proposition. He was anxious to state—
Mr. Tierney
begged to put it to the hon. member, whether he was not entering on matter which must lead to the discussion that he himself had already deprecated? Any partial discussion, until the matter came regularly before the House must be injurious.
Mr. Canning
wished to remind the hon. member, that the question did not stand now for consideration. But nothing would be lost by a delay of the discussion until the matter was brought regularly forward, as the House must be aware that the discussion on the bill which it was intended to introduce, would let in ail the topics which it could be possible to urge at present. He also put it to the House, whether it would not be better that, in the outset of measures on this critical occasion, there should not appear to be that difference of opinion amongst members, respecting the relief to be afforded, which, if it did not altogether spoil the effect of,
769
Mr. E. Wodehouse
said, he had no intention of going into any discussion at present, or to offer the slightest opposition to the measure. On the contrary, he congratulated the country on the proposition by which a very considerable relief would be afforded to the distressed districts. At the same time he must say, that the country gentlemen, who really were all disposed to concur in any measure by which relief might be afforded, were not fairly dealt with by some hon. members who differed from them on the general question of the Corn-laws. It was not long since the supporters of those laws were told in that House, that they were devoid of common honour, common honesty, and common sense, and were also said to be devoid even of Christian and humane feeling. This was the language held by the noble member for the county of York.
[Here there was a very general cry of "order," in the midst of which, lord Milton rose, and was about to address the chair, but there seeming to be a very general disposition in the House that the discussion should not be carried further, the noble lord resumed his seat without making any remark.]
Mr. James
said, that he fully concurred in the observation of the hon. member for Coventry, that some immediate pecuniary relief should be afforded by parliament. It would be absolutely useless to throw a supply of corn into the market, if some means were not afforded to the starving poor to purchase it. He thought that ministers would do well to imitate the excellent example of his majesty, and give up a part of their large salaries to prevent their countrymen from starving. They ought also to review the estimates, in order to ascertain what sums might be saved, to rescue thousands of poor starving manufacturers from destruction. Was this a time to lay out so large a sum as 9,000
l
770
l
Mr. H. Sumner
rose to order, and wished to have the opinion of the chair as to whether the hon. member was not irregular in thus proceeding, there being no question before the House?
It was intimated to the hon. member that there was a question before the House.
Mr. James
then resumed. He must say, that any man who did not feel deeply for the frightful distress which now existed in so many parts of the country, did not deserve the name of Englishman. Why, if the unfortunate people now suffering were blacks, the House would never hear the end of it. The table would be loaded with petitions from all parts of the country, as they had recently seen with respect to negro slavery. Why did not the party called the saints come forward on this occasion, and exert themselves in the mitigation of human suffering which existed almost at their own doors? Why did they not get rid of their colonial, or rather anti-colonial office, and send down part of the large sums subscribed to the sufferers at Blackburn? Half the sums which they had expended in printing petitions, would, if sent down and distributed among the distressed districts, do more good in a day, than they with all their printing and parchment would be able to effect during their lives. He would repeat, that the distress was of that dreadful character, that it required
771
Mr. T. Wilson
said, that while he concurred with his majesty's ministers in the propriety of the measure of which they had given notice, he also agreed with the hon. member for Coventry, that that measure alone would not be sufficient. It would be necessary to give the people some means of purchasing the bread thus rendered cheaper. It was not a want of corn but a want of employment, and consequently of the means of purchasing food, which caused the distresses now felt in the manufacturing districts. He had every hope that the meeting to be held in the city to-morrow would be productive of much; but still he could not anticipate that its result would be sufficient to meet the evil to its whole extent. Under these circumstances, he thought that government ought to come forward with some proposition for affording pecuniary aid; and that, if any measure was intended, it ought to be made known at once, intead of going to the city for relief in the first instance. He would suggest that, if pecuniary aid was afforded, it might be advanced to the parishes in the distressed districts in aid of the poor-rates, and the application of it confided to the local authorities, who would have the best means of knowing cases in which relief was most required.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he earnestly hoped that those citizens of London who had the means of contributing to the relief of the distress now existing, would not be checked in their charitable efforts by any thing that had fallen from the hon. gentleman who had just resumed his seat. Government had felt it their duty to step forward in aid of those efforts, and the House must know that their situation was one full of difficulty. But, in submitting any proposition to parliament, the thing which of all others they deprecated was, that what they felt themselves bound to do should have, the slightest tendency to damp that
772
Mr. Secretary Peel
hoped he might be allowed to add a word to what had fallen from his right hon. friends. It had been his painful duty to receive reports of the distress which existed, and of the disorders which arose out of it, and to take the most effectual steps in his power to repress those disorders, and to prevent their recurrence. Yet, while he did this, he could not withhold the expression of his deep commiseration at the severity of the distress, or his admiration at the patience and forbearance with which (with some few exceptions) that severity of suffering had hitherto been borne in the manufacturing districts. He had every confidence in the effect of the measures now proposed, and of the exertions which he had no doubt would be made to render them still more effectual; and he hoped that this occasion would be the means of strengthening those bonds which united the higher and the lower classes in this country, by affording additional manifestations of great liberality on the one side, and of a grateful sense of it on the other. He trusted that they who were blessed with superfluous wealth would use their efforts on this occasion in the most effectual manner to mitigate and, if possible, remove the sufferings of their distressed countrymen. Immediate and active measures for this purpose would be considered more necessary here, when it was recollected what had been already done by the charitable efforts of the local authorities and the affluent residents in the districts. In some places, three subscriptions had been already raised; in others most liberal donations had flowed from the bounty of private individuals; and, in all, the most humane exertions had been made by the rich to administer to the wants of their poor neighbours. All these had yet been found insufficient to meet the evil; but he looked forward with a confident hope that the result of the meeting, which was to be held in the city to-morrow, would accomplish that object.
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, that, if the whole of the country gentlemen knew, as they were now sure to know, of this proposition, it would meet with their full con-
773
Mr. J. Smith
said, he did not rise for the purpose of prolonging this discussion, but merely to make a remark, which might be important to be known; namely, that there existed in the city a very general sentiment, that on such occasions as that of the meeting to be held to-morrow, the inhabitants of London were not efficiently assisted by persons of rank and fashion at the west end of the town. He did not make this remark without foundation; for he himself had witnessed it in several instances. He hoped, however, that those to whom he alluded, who could spare time, would attend at the meeting to-morrow, and that they who might not be able to attend would send liberal subscriptions. He hoped this hint would not be lost at the present alarming crisis, when every possible exertion should be made by all
774
Mr. Curteis
expressed his concurrence in the measure, and added, that he did not believe there was one among the country gentlemen who was not ready to do every thing in his power to relieve the distresses of the manufacturing classes. The measure now stated to the House would, he had no doubt, give much relief. At the same time, he should hope that the right hon. gentleman would, in carrying it into effect, keep within the limits he had prescribed. He admitted and lamented the existence of the distresses in the north; but he could assure the House, that there also existed a considerable degree of distress among the agricultural classes in the south. Government, he was glad to say, had behaved with great kindness in answer to several applications made to them on the subject, and he trusted that some applications now before them, would meet with similar attention.
Mr. Canning
assured the hon. member, that he should consider himself as acting most unworthily, if, under cover of a temporary measure, he should either now, or at any future time, insidiously carry it further, so as to affect the greater question; with which he would admit it was in some degree allied. While he expressed this on his own part, he would hope that the hon. member would not complicate this question, by mixing it up with measures with which it was not necessarily connected.
The motion was agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 2 1826.
CORN LAWS.
The Earl of Malmesbury
775
s.
The Earl of Limerick
stated, that the price of the best wheat at Cork was not above 43
s.
Lord Ellenborough
said, he should not
776
The Earl of Malmesbury
suggested the propriety of examining Mr. Jacob before a committee of their lordships. It had been said, that much of the corn in bond was old and musty, and unfit to make bread; but he found, from returns which had been laid on their lordships' table, that 275,000 quarters of the wheat in bond had been imported in 1825.
Lord Teynham
observed, that the depression of the agricultural interest would take away the only means that remained of giving employment to the labouring
777
The Earl of Carnarvon
said, he did not see why, in the resolution by which it was proposed that a committee should be appointed, their lordships should be called upon to approve of one part of the measure suggested by ministers. He did not know whether, after inquiry, he might not object to the second measure, if it were proposed to be a permanent power; but as temporary measures, he saw no reason for preferring the one to the other. It appeared to him, that if there was to be an inquiry, it ought not to be a partial one, but that the subject ought to be completely investigated, and every formation obtained.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, May 2 1826.
FREEHOLDERS IN DISTRICTS BILL.
Mr. Sykes
Mr. F. Lewis
opposed the second reading, on the ground that it was one of most extensive importance; and that it was impossible that the parties interested in it could have proper notice of it. The magnitude of the change which it would introduce, and the great interests concerned in it, rendered it necessary that such should not be allowed in the same session in which it had been introduced at so late a period. He desired the House to reflect how much the interests of the distant county of Northumberland might be affected by it, and consider how impossible it was that the parties concerned could have such notice of its nature, as to be at this time prepared to oppose it. For his own part, he thought it would be a much better measure to give such freeholders the right of voting for the corporate bodies among whom they were stationed, than to give them the right to vote for the countries. But, at all events, he was satisfied that the another session, and moved, as an amendment, "that the
778
Mr. Sykes
recapitulated the reasons which he had stated in favour of the measure on a former night; namely, that the Crown, although it had the separate counties, had no right whatever to deprive the freeholders of the elective franchise; and that this was merely a declaratory law, restoring to certain freeholders a right which had long remained dormant, but had never been forfeited. He proposed, however, that the bill should, at any rate, be now read a second time and committed; and then, if it were thought necessary, it might remain over for further consideration.
Mr. Jones
hoped the hon. member for Hull would persevere in his measure, which was as just as it was important.
Mr. Stuart Wortley
suggested that the measure ought to be postponed till another session.
Mr. Calcraft
said, that there could be no harm in allowing the bill to be read a second time, and committed, since gentlemen who thought it objectionable would not, by such a step, be in any way pledged not to oppose its subsequent progress.
Mr. R. Smith
said, there could hardly be any objection to the second reading and committal of the bill, on a distinct pledge, that it should not go any further this session.
Mr. Sykes
however consented to withdraw the bill at present, and it was withdrawn accordingly.
PETITION OF J. CANNELL, RESPECTING
Lord Folkestone
presented a petition from James Cannell, of Teasburgh, in Norfolk; setting forth:—
"That the Petitioner having, in the month of February last, seen several of his poor neighbours suffer greatly from the breaking of banks, strongly advised others who held notes of banks not yet broken, to go to those banks and demand gold; that he found people afraid to do this, but that he having offered to do it for them, there were brought to do it several persons, notes of there Norwich Banks, in order that he might get the gold in exchange for the said notes; that on the 11th of February he went to the Bank of Joseph Gurney, Hudson Gurney, Richard H. Gurney, and Joseph John Gurney, the second two of whom are members of the House; that he
779
l.
l.
l.,
l.
l.
780
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that this was the supplement to the petition of Mr. William Cobbett, giving the details of the transactions on which Mr. Cobbett had animadverted, and proving that the bankers had acted throughout in a manner in which they were perfectly justified.
Ordered to lie on the table.
PETITION OF SHIP-OWNERS OF LONDON FOR A DUTY ON FOREIGN SHIPPING.
Mr. Robertson
presented a petition from the Ship-owners in London, setting forth,
"That the Petitioners' most anxious attention was directed to the first application to the House from certain merchants of the city of London, in which they submitted their conviction of the impolicy and injustice of the restrictive system applied to commerce, and expressed their objection to every restrictive regulation of trade, not essential to the revenue, against all duties merely protective from foreign competition, and against the excess of such duties as are partly for the purpose of revenue, and partly for that of protection, and praying for relief; this petition was followed by other petitions to the House from many of the manufacturing districts praying for the repeal
781
s.
782
s.,
s.
d.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.,
s.
783
784
Ordered to lie on the table.
CORN LAWS.
Mr. Secretary
Canning moved the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a committee on the act of the 3rd Geo. 4th, cap. 60, respecting the Corn-laws.
Sir T. Lethbridge
said, it gave him great pain to offer any opposition to the measure which he understood was to be submitted to the House by the right hon. the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. He knew the full extent of the responsibility which every gentleman must incur who ventured to put himself forward for such a purpose at this moment, when the country was looking to the proposition of the right hon. gentleman as the means
785
s.
786
787
788
s.
789
s.
s.
790
s.,
791
s.
s.
s.
Mr. Benelt
complained, that the proposition which was to be made to the House was another instance of the vacillation of ministers, and to that, more than to any other circumstance, he was inclined to attribute the present distress. Fourteen days ago this question had been settled, and the whole subject of the Corn-laws, it was understood, was not to be discussed again during the present session. This decision had been come to by a large majority of the House; and yet so soon after this it was, that the House was called upon to disturb all the
792
s.
793
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.
794
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that, in simply making his motion, without prefacing it by any observation, he had been actuated by no want of respect for the opinions of those who differed from him; but he had thought, and he thought so still, that whatever discussion was to arise would have been most conveniently taken in the committee. As some hon. gentlemen, however, were of a different way of thinking, he could have no hesitation in adopting whatever course seemed to them most desirable, and would therefore, at once, trouble the House
795
796
797
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
798
s.,
799
Mr. Bankes
thought, that the measures of ministers ought to have been taken much earlier; he thought, too, that there could be nothing in their policy which might not be more fully explained than it had been so far. The right hon. Secretary complained that the present measure was coupled with the general question of the Corn-laws. But, how was it possible to disconnect one from the other? There was a prevailing opinion among the lower classes, that they were suffering from the operation of the Corn-laws. The right hon. Secretary, who in words denied that
800
s.
Mr. Robertson
thought that the measure proposed would serve only to aggravate the existing evil. The distress arose from a failure of demand consequent upon the recent commercial distresses, and from the glut of British manufactures which existed in all the markets of the world. If the bonded corn was allowed to be brought into the country, the agricultural interest would take alarm, and a panic would follow its introduction which it would not be easy to allay. Another consequence of that measure would be, that corn would be brought down to half its present price, and it would not, after all, produce the desired effect; for it would be brought forward to a starving and impoverished people, who would not have
801
s.
s.,
s.
s.,
802
Mr. Whitmore
said, he could not, as some gentlemen seemed to do, consider the present measure as unconnected with the general question of the Corn laws, which he so lately had brought before the notice of the House; and, however he might have succeeded in making himself intelligible to those who heard him on that occasion, he was fearful that his views and opinions had not gone forth to the country in as clear a way as he could have wished. He stated then, and repeated now, that the time was arrived when the subject of the Corn laws should engage the most serious attention of the House. Government, however, had thought otherwise; and the further agitation of that great question was accordingly deferred. Under the present afflicting circumstances of the country, he was of opinion, that the measure proposed by his majesty's government would have the best effect; and, looking at the existing distress, he was persuaded, that, if parliament was dissolved without alleviating that distress, as far as might be practicable, consequences the most disastrous would follow. Had the House reflected on all the consequences of this measure? Perhaps, he should be allowed to explain, that the stock of corn in bond was now comparatively small; and that if the ensuing harvest should happen to be unproductive, the present measure would be absolutely necessary. He conceived that in the usual state of the country, taking one year with another, the produce was not equal to the consumption. If the contrary were the fact, and if the produce could be proved to exceed the consumption, there would not be any occasion for a revision of the Corn laws. He was borne out in his assertion of the deficiency of produce to meet the consumption, by the average importation, taken on the average of every ten years, from 1780 to 1820; from which it would be seen that it had been progressively increasing. From 1780 to 1789, the importation was 230,330 quarters; from 1790 to 1799, it was 320,609 quarters; from 1800 to 1809, it was 574,753 quarters; from 1810 to 1820, it was 684,642 quarters. This included the importations from Ireland; deducting which, the importation was 508,583 quarters. Now, from the year
803
s.
s.,
s.,
s.,
s.
804
Colonel Wood
said, that the hon. gentleman had observed, that this country had grown corn hardly equal to its consumption. But, what was the fact? For the last seven years the country had been living on its own produce, and no importation of foreign grain had taken place during that time. The hon. gentleman had said on a former night, that in the internal trade of corn in this country there was a; great falling-off. He begged to deny that. In the year 1822, there was a greater quantity of corn sold in Marklane than on any other occasion. He thought that this measure was the safest; that could be resorted to under the present distressing circumstances; yet, although he regretted as much as any gentleman present the existence of distress in the manufacturing districts, and would go as far to relieve them, he confessed that he was not very sanguine as to the benefit which this measure would effect. He should regret, if the disturbed dis-
805
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.
806
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.,
Lord Milton
said, he had paid great attention to the speech of his hon. friend who had last addressed the House, but he trusted his hon. friend would forgive him for saying, that, as his speech was rather calculated for Tuesday, the 18th of April, than for Tuesday the 2nd of May, he would not that evening enter into an argument with him. He could not help expressing his regret at the course pursued by his majesty's government on this occasion. Undoubtedly, during the three days preceding yesterday, every body anticipated some communication from the Crown to parliament, relative to the distresses of the manufacturing districts. Different people according to the different views they took of the state of the country, and the remedies applicable to it
807
808
Mr. Philips
said, he should regret much if the proposed measures should not be carried, because he was satisfied, that the effect would be not only to retard an advance in the price of provisions, but, by increasing our exports, to give employment to those who were now unemployed. It had been stated by many hon. members, that the manufacturing population attributed all their calamities to the present price of corn; but he was convinced that such an opinion was not general among those classes, and that the course pursued by the hon. gentlemen who put themselves forward as the advocates of the agricultural interest was the principal cause of having such an opinion entertained by some of those classes. He could assure those hon. members who spoke so slightingly of the manufacturers, many of whom were in an inferior station of life, that they had more correct notions upon the subject than hon. members gave them credit for, and that many of those
809
Mr. Calcraft
said, he could not give a vote upon the present occasion, without stating to the House, the grounds upon which he was induced to vote. He wished he could agree with the right hon. gentleman opposite, that the effect of the measures proposed would be the introducing of a cordiality of feeling between all
810
811
s.
s.
812
Sir J. Newport
expressed himself favourable to a grant of money by the government for the relief of the distressed manufacturers; and, as he could not see that the measures proposed by the right hon. gentleman offered any remedy for the distress, he should support the amendment of the hon. member for Somersetshire, provided there should be an instruction to the committee to dispose of the bonded corn. He thought the House ought, by releasing the bonded corn, to give an earnest of their good intentions towards the distressed manufacturers; but his most decided objection to the second measure was, that no beneficial object could be obtained by it which could not be obtained by his majesty's government acting upon their own responsibility, and coming afterwards to parliament for an act of indemnity.
Lord John Russell
began by observing, that after the promise which ministers had made last year, to discuss the question of the Corn-laws, and after their deprecation of that discussion in the present year, he did think that the agricultural interest had just cause to complain that that question was now, in fact, introduced in this side manner. He thought that in any form in which the motion for a grant might be brought forward, it was objectionable as a bad precedent. How did the present state of the country operate on this question? There were many
813
814
s.
s.,
815
816
Mr. Huskisson
said, that after all the speeches he had heard on the subject that night from the other side of the House, he still retained the same opinion which he expressed a fortnight back, that the present was not a proper time for going into a general revision of the Corn-laws. He had heard nothing upon the present occasion which tended, in the slightest degree, to shake that opinion. It would, perhaps, be more correct to say, that he was confirmed in that opinion by all that had passed out of doors since what he must call the unfortunate discussion of the subject, not many nights back in the House. After what he had stated upon that occasion with respect to the final settlement of the question, they must take a very different view of it from him, who thought that the present was a fit time for entering into it. It was not a little surprising, that when his right hon. friend announced last night what government meant to propose, and the reasons on which it was grounded, there did appear to be, on all sides of the House, a spontaneous, cordial, and universal concurrence in the proposition, greater than he ever recollected upon any former occasion. Not only did this strong concurrence of sentiment manifest itself, but also a determination, that when the subject came to be considered on the next night, it was not to be mixed up with the general question of the Corn-laws, or any other heterogeneous consideration. This he looked upon as a happy omen; and had the same feelings continued to influence the House, the best results must have followed. It would seem now, however, that some new light had broken in upon hon. gentlemen, and accordingly, with an ingenuity which he could not well comprehend, it was boldly inferred, that the only effect of the measure now proposed, would be, to confirm the manufacturing population in an opinion, that the cause of all their distresses was the Corn-laws, and that the
817
s.
s.
818
s.
s.
819
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
s.,
820
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
821
s.
822
s.
s.
s.
823
s.
s.
824
825
826
Mr. Whitmore,
in explanation, said, that he had never asserted that the stock of corn on hand was so short as not to be sufficient to carry us on till the next harvest.
Mr. John Williams
began by lamenting over the desperate condition of the country. He said he had listened with great attention to the speech of the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down, in expectation of hearing some measures of relief proposed; but, except at the concluding part of his speech, he had hardly alluded to this important part of the question. He had no doubt that the right hon. gentleman and his majesty's ministers felt great anxiety on account of the distress, and an urgent wish to improve the condition of the people; and he was surprised that they stopped where they had stopped, and had not brought forward some measure of practical and immediate relief. By the motion of the right hon. Secretary, and the motion of the hon. baronet, the House was placed in an embarrassing dilemma. If, on the one hand, they should adopt the motion of the hon. baronet, they would appear indifferent to the sufferings of the people; and if, on the other, they should vote with the right
827
Mr. E. Wodehouse
wished to state, that he had always declared, both in that House and out of it, that he did not wish to leave the importation price at 80
s.,
828
The House divided, when there appeared for the Amendment 82: against it 214.
The House having resolved itself into a committee,
Sir J. Sebright
declared, that he would oppose the second resolution; because he considered that it involved the whole question of the Corn-laws.
Sir T. Lethbridge
wished the right hon. Secretary would add 5
s.
s.
s.
Mr. Secretary Canning
observed, that the hon. baronet mistook the principle on which the duty of 5
s.
s.
s.,
829
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
Mr. Benett
objected to conferring the proposed power on ministers, not because he distrusted them particularly, but because it was a power with which no administration should be trusted. If, however, the committee should give ministers the power which they asked for, he would
830
s.
s.
Mr. Secretary Canning
remarked, that the very reason why no particular price had been fixed was to be found in the last observation of the hon. gentleman; namely, that the agricultural gentlemen would, if any particular price had now been named, look on it as implying the future price of corn. For his own part, he was not bigotted to either decision, and whether the discretion was unlimited or limited, he again assured the committee, that it would not have the effect of settling the general question. The present resolution did not enter into particulars; it regulated neither the time nor price, but simply conveyed the power.
Colonel Wood
declared himself hostile to the second resolution, and hoped that ministers would not press it.
Mr. Huskisson
said, that the question at present was merely, whether or not they would, by passing the resolutions, sanction the principle of the measures which had been proposed? If they did sanction the principle, it would be a matter of public convenience to assent to the resolutions on the present occasion. He saw, indeed, no sufficient ground of opposition, because many opportunities would be afforded hereafter to discuss the details.
The, first resolution, "That it was the opinion of the committee that bonded corn ought to be admitted into the home market" was then carried. Upon the reading of the second resolution, "That it was expedient to empower the king in council to permit the importation of foreign grain when it was considered necessary,"
Lord Milton
said, that he, in common, he believed, with many members, entertained considerable objections to this resolution, and thought that it ought not to pass, at least without further discussion. He therefore moved, as an amendment, "that the chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."
The House divided; for the Amendment 109: against it 60: majority 49. Mr. Benett next divided the committee on the question, that the chairman do leave the chair—ayes 45: noes 122: majority 77. Mr. Benett expressed his
831
Mr. Canning
consented, most unwillingly, he allowed, to the hon. member's proposal of reporting progress. He could not, however, do so without declaring, that he considered the opposition displayed on the present occasion to be as unreasonable as it was inconvenient. The House then resumed, and the chairman reported progress.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 4 1826.
CURRENCY AND THE CORN LAWS.
Lord Folkestone
presented a petition from Paisley, setting forth,
832
Lord Folkestone
said, he would take that opportunity of asking whether any report might be expected this session from the committee of Inquiry, relative to the circulation of small notes in Scotland and Ireland; and also whether, if that report should be laid before the House this session, it was intended to bring in any measure founded upon it?
833
Mr. Huskisson
said, he could only state, that the committee were still pursuing the inquiry. Whether, after the examination of all the evidence, they would have time to consider it in all its bearings, so as to make a report this session, was what he could not undertake to say. He could speak only as an individual member of the committee. He had been seldom absent from its sittings, but he felt it quite impossible to give any other answer than that which he had then returned.
Lord Folkestone
assured the right hon. gentleman, that he had put the question merely for the sake of information, and in order to ascertain how the fact really was. The petition was one highly deserving of the attention of the House. The distress at Paisley and Glasgow was extreme, yet not a word was there in the petition to show that the petitioners laboured in the slightest degree under the delusion, that their sufferings resulted from the Corn-laws. The petition was important, not only for what it did state, but for what it did not state. Ministers, in his opinion, were deeply culpable for their recent conduct, which tended directly to foment the delusion respecting the Corn-laws. The noble lord stated, that if an apprehension had not prevailed at Paisley, that parliament was about to be dissolved immediately, and the petition had remained there a few days longer for signatures, many thousands more would have been added to it.
Mr. Portman
wished that ministers would be content with the first resolution, relative to the admission of the bonded corn, and would refrain from pressing the second.
Mr. Bright
called on ministers to proceed with the measures they had introduced, relative to the corn question. An alteration of the Corn-laws was become essentially necessary to the welfare of the country. Instead of shrinking from their duty, he trusted they would keep parliament together; and, as they had touched it, that they would now thoroughly investigate the whole question. It would be monstrous if parliament were to separate, without having provided for the first wants of the people.
Mr. J. P. Grant
observed, that great attention was due to this petition. The manufacturers of Paisley were suffering as severe distress as any part of the kingdom yet not one single act of outrage had been committed there. He disagreed from
834
Mr. Monck
agreed with the petitioners as to the danger of a paper currency. Sometimes the circulation was inconveniently contracted, and at others excessively extended. The country was now endeavouring to pay in gold what it had borrowed in a depreciated paper. This attempt was the touchstone that was trying the safety of every class of the community. The difficulties of the state were, he believed, never greater. It was undoubtedly desirable to adhere to the ancient standard, and he thought that, of the two evils, the least would be, to adjust our difficulties to our currency, instead of endeavouring to adjust our currency to our difficulties.
Sir R. Wilson
defended the conduct of the majority who voted with ministers in favour of the proposed measures. The first measure seemed to have little opposition, but he thought the second, to which so many objections were made, not less necessary. Ministers, he contended, ought to have the discretionary power of opening the ports, in case of necessity. It was said, that if corn should rise to a famine price, ministers might do so on their own responsibility, and afterwards come to parliament for an indemnity; but such a course would have this disadvantage,—and a disadvantage, be it remembered, which would fall with most severity upon the agriculturists,—that ministers, in that case, must throw open the ports without any duty whatever, for they had no power to impose a tax without the sanction of parliament. In the measure proposed, provision would be made for letting in corn, upon the payment of duties to be regulated by the degree of necessity for opening at all.
General Gascoyne
said, that, from the circumstance of many petitions not having been presented this session against the Corn-laws, it was not to be inferred, that the people were indifferent to that question. If they had refrained from petitioning, it was because they considered it useless to do so, when it was understood no discussion was to take place. They viewed the proceedings of parliament, with reference to this subject, with the deepest anxiety. As it had been brought under consideration, it was his opinion that there ought to be a strict in-
835
Mr. Maberly
thought, that, if any change was to be made in the currency of Scotland, such alteration would prove ruinous to the country. If Scotland knew its own interest, it would cover the table of the House with petitions against such a measure. Indeed, with the exception of the present petition, and one from the town of Dunse, there seemed to be but one opinion on this subject all through Scotland.
Sir F. Burdett
wished to guard himself against being supposed to acquiesce in the sentiments of the petition, or to concur in the doctrines which it contained. It put forth as an axiom, that which was extremely doubtful; and many of its conclusions were inconsistent one with the other. He, therefore, protested against letting that petition be considered as a manual of political economy on this subject. As to the question, whether the Corn-laws had been instrumental in creating any part of the present distress—he thought no man could have a doubt about it; but then, it was not in the manner which some gentlemen supposed. That distress was brought about by the recent interruption of trade; which circumstance must, of course, have had its effect upon agricultural produce. With respect to the question to which the petition related, whenever the noble lord brought forward the subject, he should endeavour to shew, that the conclusions contained in the petition were contradictory in themselves.
Lord Folkestone
considered it a very sensible and well-argued petition, and on that score he would venture to say it was deserving of the serious attention of the House. He was well aware that numerous petitions had been presented on the other side; but this showed that the unanimity of opinion on this subject was not so great as had been represented; and, within the last two months, a considerable change had taken place in the opinions of persons in Scotland on this question.
Sir T. Lethbridge
presented a petition from an individual named William Phillips,
836
s.
837
Mr. Huskisson
said, that, as he should have an opportunity to-morrow of discussing this question, he would not now say one word on that subject; nor should he have risen at all, had he not been informed that the hon. baronet had, before he entered the House, made a statement which conveyed an insinuation that persons in Liverpool, if not in London, had received some early intimation of the measure which ministers intended to propose, before it had been brought forward in that House. And as, from his own connexion with Liverpool, he could not avoid concluding that such insinuation must have been directed against himself, he should not be performing a duty which he owed to himself, if he did not repel the charge with the utmost indignation, and most positively and unequivocally declare, that there was not the slightest foundation for it. Indeed, he defied any one to say, that any individual, either in London or Liverpool, had received the slightest intimation from him of the intention of government to bring forward this measure. He would state to the House the only circumstance that had occurred in the matter. He had received a letter about ten days ago, from two eminent corn-factors of Liverpool, and the proposition which that letter contained was, the propriety of allowing the distressed people in Lancashire to purchase the bonded corn, free of duty, for their own use. When he had received that letter, he had
838
Sir E. Knatchbull
said, that the whole transaction had originated in a misapprehension; for it was impossible any man could believe that an individual of the high character which the right hon. gentleman held in the country, could be guilty of such conduct. But he must express his regret, that the government had felt it their duty, at this particular time, to agitate a question of so great delicacy that nothing but the most urgent necessity could justify them in bringing forward. He lamented the determination of government to bring forward the question tomorrow evening.
Mr. H. Sumner
said, that he did not place the least reliance on the report which had reached his ears respecting the stir in the corn trade in Liverpool on Saturday last. At the same time, he must say, it appeared to him incompatible with the discharge of the duties of the President of the Board of Trade, to represent such an important commercial town as Liverpool.
Sir T. Lethbridge
begged to assure the right hon. gentleman, that he had not the slightest intention of making any such insinuation against him as he had supposed, though he must still declare his belief respecting the activity which prevailed in the corn-market at Liverpool on the day mentioned.
Mr. Huskisson
expressed himself quite satisfied with the assurance given by the hon. baronet; but he had felt himself called upon, as a man of honour, to repel an insinuation which he had been given to understand had been thrown out. There was another remark made by the hon. member for Surrey, which he felt himself equally called upon to deny, namely, that it was impossible for him, holding the office he did, to represent the town of Liverpool. He repelled that charge also. He would tell the hon. member for Surrey,
839
Sir F. Burdett
said, he had heard the remarks of the hon. baronet, and was so far from having had the slightest suspicion of the imputation which the right hon. gentleman supposed, that when he rose to repel it he was quite surprised.
Mr. Brougham
said, he was quite satisfied at the explanation given by the right hon. gentleman; but was not surprised at the indignation with which he had risen to repel the accusation. Nothing could be more satisfactory than the denial; and it appeared to him, that if such a charge was to be preferred, the situation of the right hon. gentleman would be one of extreme hardship: for the right hon. gentleman was placed in circumstances which precluded the possibility of his having made any communication on the subject; and for this simple reason, that on the very day alluded to, it was made a matter of charge against the right hon. gentleman, that, in truth and fact, he himself knew nothing at all about the matter. So far from there having been any decision on the question, neither the right hon. gentleman or his colleagues seemed to have had the slightest concert or deliberation; for they came down to that House, and submitted, as a matter of the greatest importance, a question, of which forty-eight hours before they had not the slightest intention. Before he sat down, he wished to offer an explanation of the vote he had given on a former evening, which was misunderstood by an hon. and learned friend, whom he did not now see in his place. It had been supposed, that they who had voted in the majority were desirous of stopping all inquiry into the distresses of the unfortunate sufferers in the North. He could only say, that as far as his vote went, and that of those who habitually acted with him, nothing could have been further from their thoughts; but, had they voted for the resolution of the hon. baronet, it would, in fact, have had the effect of getting rid altogether of the general measure, to which they attached the highest importance. They regarded even this partial measure as calculated, if not to mitigate, at least to guard against the increase of the existing distresses. Had he voted in any other way than in the majority he should have been guilty of gross inconsistency; but how the consistency of the gentlemen opposite could be made out,
840
Mr. Benett
said, that his hon. and learned friend had given a good explanation of his vote, but he thought it would require all the ingenuity of the right hon. gentlemen opposite to explain away the inconsistency of their conduct.
Mr. Peel
thought, that he should sufficiently answer what had fallen from the hon. gentleman by observing, that the measure proposed by the hon. member for Bridgenorth was intended to be a permanent one; whereas, the measure now proposed by ministers arose out of a case of necessity, and was only intended as a temporary expedient.
Sir J. Sebright
gave it as his decided opinion, and also as the opinion of all those with whom he had conversed on the subject, that, if this measure should be adopted, the Corn-law question would be settled, and that we should have the ports open at a duty of 12
s.
s.
Lord Althorp
said, that he had, at one time, in common with the President of the Board of Trade, and others, considered the present session an unfit time for the discussion of the great question connected with the importation of foreign grain. But, after what had been already said and done with regard to the question, and when the House was actually, after
841
Lord J. Russell
agreed with the noble lord as to the propriety of some such resolution. What they wanted was, steadiness in the conduct of government; and that would soon give steadiness to the laws affecting agriculture.
Mr. Whitmore
said, he did not wish to prolong the discussion, but he thought it important to observe, that whoever might suffer from a change in the Corn-laws, the petitioner, at all events, had no reason to complain. When the permission of taking out bonded corn, upon the payment of ten shillings, was given last year, it was with the understanding, that the question of the Corn-laws was to be decided during the present session; and, therefore, if he was to suffer from any change in the laws, he could not say now he had not received sufficient notice of the alteration.
Ordered to lie on the table.
STATE OF THE NATION.
Mr. Hume,
in rising to submit to the notice of the House a question so important and so complicated as the present state of the country, claimed a very large share of their indulgence. On former occasions the subject had been introduced by individuals whose talents and consequence entitled them to attention; but, as he possessed no such claim, he would crave the favour of their patient indulgence while he laid before them those statements of which he had given notice more than two months ago. On other occasions the object of such motions had been, to remove, by the consequences of the votes of the House, those ministers whose conduct was impugned in the Resolutions they were called upon to adopt. He
842
843
844
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Total Debt, 5th January, 1817
£846,767,078
Do. 5th January, 1826
819,437,298
Decrease
£27,327,780
l.
l.
l.
l.
845
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
846
847
l.
l.
l.
848
l.
l.
l.
l.
849
l.
l.
l.
l.
850
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
851
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
852
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
853
l.
854
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
d.
l.
855
s.
d.
s.
d.
l.
856
857
1792
28,661,374
1797
30,923,414
1799
31,751,645
1803
30,479,202
1821
28,697,057
1825
28,553,399
858
859
Gallons.
From 1801 to 1803
7,661,270
From 1819 to 1822
5,223,326
Diminution
2,437,944
1801, 1802, 1803
£1,895,657
1819, 1820, 1821, 1822
1,724,616
Annual decrease, or 30 per cent. 171,041
Cwts.
From 1808 to 1816 (deducting 1,600,000 cwts used in distillation), the annual consumption was
2,406,809
From 1817 to 1825
2,593,540
Increase
196,731
s.
s.
860
861
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1817
number voted
92,282
1818
90,285
1819
80,479
1820
92,224
1821
81,100
1822
68,802
1823
69,144
1824
73,041
1825
86,438
1826
87,764
862
863
864
865
866
867
The following is a copy of Mr. Hume's proposed Resolutions:—
No. 1. That the assertions made to this House by the chancellor of the Exchequer, on the 3rd March, 1823, that a reduction of 24,766,520
l,
l.
l.
PUBLIC DEBT.
No. 2. That it appears by the annual finance accounts, the public debt of the United Kingdom, funded and unfunded,
868
l.
l.
l.
No. 3. That the diminution of 27,327,780
l.
l.
l.
No. 4. That of the 18,072,023
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
No. 5. That the charge of the funded debt, as it stood on 5th of January, 1817, was:—
For Permanent Annuities
£27,709,505
Long Annuities
1,657,904
Life Ditto, per 48 G. 3
225,255
Management
278,189
Total
£29,870,853
And on 5th January, 1826:—
For Permanent Annuities
25,507,102
Long Annuities
1,333,257
Life Ditto, per 48 G. 3.
562,669
Management
276,818
Total
27,679,856
Shewing a decrease in the nine years of annual charge on the Funded Debt, of
2,190,997
And that the charge of 50,564,787
l.
2,051,242
And on the 5th Jan. 1826, on 41,309,030
l.
d.
l.
s.
d.
1,256,482
Showing a reduction of charge for Unfunded debt of
794,760
And total reduction of annul charge for Funded and Unfunded Debt of
2,985,757
No. 6. That out of the 2,985,757
l.
In 1819, Imperial Annuities expired
£230,000
Exchequer do. do.
18,750
Long Annuities cancelled for Life Annuities
17,490
869
In 1822, by conversion of 5 per cents into 4 pre cents
1,207,137
1824, Do. of 4 do. 3½ do
381,035
Charges of Management decreased
8,495
£1,862,907
And dividends on capitals, cancelled as pre Resolution 4
227,529
And for ditto in 3,807,113
l.
152,280
Total Reduction of charge on the Funded Debt
2,242,716
No. 7 That the total amount of the revenue of the United Kingdom, received in the nine years, 1817–1825 (and exclusive of all sums received for loans or dead weight), was 531,266,535
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
No. 8. That the balance of all monies in the Exchequer on the 5th of January 1817, amounted to
£13,113,040
And, on the 5th of January, 1826, amounted to
5,305,638
Showing a decrease of
7,807,402
No. 9. That although there has been in these nine years an excess of revenue of 25,965,539
l.
l.
No. 10. That during the nine years, 1817–25, loans have been raised and Exchequer bills funded to the amount of 98,761,920
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
870
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
To which add life annuities by
48 G. 3. increased
323,114
No. 11. That out of the 124,779,340
l.
l.
For purchase of Stock in Great Britain
£101,783,712
Do. do. in Ireland
4.511,045
Do. do. East India Company
839,243
Paid for Life Annuities (48 G. III).
3,650,693
For payment of the Dissentients, five per cents
2,736,800
Do. do. 4 per Cents
2,390,000
Interest on do
95,446
Total Sum accounted for by Commissioners
116,006,939
No. 12. That with the sums applied to the purchase of stock, there have been cancelled in Great Britain various capitals to the amount of 144,480,680
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
No. 13. That in addition to the sum of 4,844,822
l.
l.
l.
No. 14. That if the increase of annual charge of 4,146,664
l.
l.
l.
871
l.
l.
l.
No. 15. That, although by Resolution No. 7, there appears to have been in the nine years, 1817–25, a disposable surplus revenue of 25,965,539
l.
l.
l.
No. 16. That the increase of life annuities, over and above the amount of perpetual annuities cancelled, will account for about 130,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
No. 17. That the loss arising from the complicated system of the sinking fund and the public accounts is further proved by the statement, appendixes (G.) and (H.) which exhibits the result that would have taken place if the surplus revenue, and other resources (exclusive of loans), had been applied, year by year, to the purchase of stock, at the average rates of the respective years; and if further proof is wanting of the ruinous system of finance, so fatally persisted in, of supporting a sinking fund by loans, the following result of the last loan from the Bank in 1823, avowedly for that purpose, will furnish the most indisputable evidence.
No. 18. That there has been paid into the Exchequer by the trustees of naval and military pensions, between the 5th of April, 1823, and the 1st of January, 1826, the sum of 6,917,569
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
872
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
No. 19. That by the said loan the public debt was increased in 1823, equivalent to the amount of 9,476,110
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
No. 20. That although the complexity of the finance accounts, and the loss to the nation by such a system, are clearly manifest by the preceding resolutions, yet the magnitude of the evil inflicted on the country by the ruinous and absurd sinking-fund-system, still persevered in by his majesty's ministers, can only be known by an attentive examination of the series of finance resolutions submitted to the consideration of the House in 1822, and by the following short summary of these transactions.
No. 21. That by a return made to this House, the total nett revenue of Great Britain (exclusive of loans) for 24 years, between the 10th day of October, 1792, and the 5th day of January 1817, appears to have amounted to 1,126,640,417
l.
l.
l.
No. 22. That although the actual revenue during the 24 years, from 1793 to 1816, inclusive, fell short of the expenditure only about 393 millions, it appears, by a series of resolutions submitted to the consideration of this House, on the
873
l.
No. 22.* That by the sixth of the before-mentioned series of resolutions, it appears, that whilst 618,163,857
l.
l.
l.
No. 23. That by another account presented to this House in 1822, it appears, that in the year 1815, annuities of different denominations, all in perpetuity, were created to the amount of 3,083,621
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
No. 24. That by another account, presented to this House in 1825, it appears that between the 5th January, 1824, and 5th of January, 1825, the commissioners of the sinking fond have purchased 3,627,225
l.
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
l.
s.
d.
l.
No. 25. That no nation, or body corporate, in their collective capacity, can derive pecuniary benefit or advantage of any kind, by merely trading with themselves, and therefore, the sinking fund system of Great Britain, established solely for the purpose of the nation trading in its own obligations was founded in fallacy, and has been maintained by delusion.
No. 26. That the sinking fund system is not only useless for any beneficial purpose to the State, but highly objectionable from the loss it occasions, and for its direct tendency to promote a system of speculation and gambling, altogether inconsistent with the well-being of the country, and therefore ought to be forthwith abolished.
No. 27. That the state of our manufacturing, commercial and agricultural relations, demands the most serious attention, as the evidence before the House proves a progressive diminution in the
874
No. 28. That the annual average official value of the quantity of products of British labour exported in the three years 1814–16, was 36,562,367
l.
l.
l.
l.
No. 29. That although the finance committee of 1817 called the notice of the House to the low establishments of the year 1792, and recommended that as near an approximation as possible should be made to the scale of establishment and expense of that year; yet the taxes raised in the United Kingdom in 1825 exceeded 58 millions, or treble the amount of 1792, and the expenses of the civil list, the naval and military establishments, and civil government, exceeded 26 millions (exclusive of the charge for the debt), being four times the amount of the expenditure of 1792!!
No. 30. That a reference to the great amount of the civil list, to the number of pensioners, sinecurists, and highly paid placemen, to the unnecessary number and expense of the army, navy, ordnance, and civil establishments, will sufficiently prove that due regard has not been paid to the recommendations of that committee; it is, therefore, imperative on this House to demand an immediate reduction of taxation, in conformity with that recommendation, as the best means of relieving the country from its present embarrassments.
No. 31. That the repeated assertions made in this House, that there has been a diminution of taxation to the extent of 27 millions, since the termination of the war, are delusive and fallacious, whether
875
No. 32. That the money amount of taxes raised in Great Britain on the average of the three years, 1813–15, the largest receipt of any period during the war, was 69,010,227
l.
l.
l.
s.
l.
s.
l.
s.
l.
No. 33. And if a comparison be made of the amounts of taxation at these two periods in labour, or the products of labour, the pressure in 1823–5 will prove to be considerably greater than in 1813–15, as the annual money amount of taxes, on an average of the three years 1813–15 was only equal to 15,853,926 quarters of wheat, at 80
s.
d.
s.
d.
No. 34. That if the money amount of taxation, on an average of the three last years, 1823–5, be compared with that of the three years 1817–19, the money amount is greater in 1823–5 by 668,426
l.
No. 35. That the continued pressure of taxation has greatly increased the privations and distress of the productive, industrious, and labouring classes of the community, as is manifest from the stationary, if not diminished, consumption of the following taxable articles of primary necessity, and the decreasing consumption of many taxable articles of enjoyment and luxury, notwithstanding a great increase in the number of consumers.
876
No. 36. That in taking a review of the annual consumption of malt, for the last forty years, in England and Wales, it appears that the quantity annually consumed has actually decreased, notwithstanding an increase in the number of consumers, of about 40 per cent.
No. 37. That, on the average of the ten years, 1785–1794, the number of bushels of malt annually consumed was 25,751,775; and on the average of the ten years, 1815–1824, the annual consumption was only 25,246,940 bushels, shewing an actual decrease exceeding 500,000 bushels per annum; whilst, if the consumption of malt had increased in proportion to the increase of population, the consumption would have exceeded 35,000,000 of bushels per annum.
No. 38. That if a comparison of the consumption of malt in the year 1825 (a year of great excitement) is made with some other single years, during the last 40 years, a greater consumption appears in the years 1792–7 and 9, 1803 and 1821, than in 1825; but a fair comparison can only be made on an average of several years.
No. 39. That, although it is generally believed that the stationary consumption of fermented or malt liquor, arises from an increased consumption of distilled spirits, yet it appears that the average consumption in Great Britain, of all kinds of spirits, British and foreign, in the five years, 1806–1810, was 13,059,522 gallons; and in the five years 1820–4, was 12,110,281 gallons, showing an actual decrease in the eighteen years, of 949,241 gallons per annum, notwithstanding an increase in the population, during that period, of about 30 per cent.
No. 40. That the quantity of foreign wines annually charged with Excise duty in Great Britain, on the average of the three years 1801–3, was 7,661,270 gallons, and the average annual quantity charged in the four years 1819–1822, was5,223,326 gallons, showing an actual diminution of consumption of 2,437,944 gallons yearly, or about 30 per cent, notwithstanding the increased number of consumers during that period; and that there was also at least ten per cent of Cape wines, of very inferior quality, charged with duty in the aggregate quantity in the last period.
No. 41. That whilst the rates of duty levied on foreign wines were, in the years 1819–22, 30 percent higher than in the years 1801–3, there was, in the same
877
No. 42. That the quantity of sugar consumed in Great Britain, on an annual average of the nine years 1808–16, was (after deducting 1,600,000 cwts. used in distillation in the six years 1809–14) 2,406,809 cwts.; and in the last 9 years 1817–25, on an annual average, 2,593,540 cwts., showing an annual increase of only 196,731 cwts., being about 7½ per cent, whilst the population has increased, during that period, at the rate of 17 per cent.
No. 43. That the quantity of tea consumed in Great Britain, on an annual average of the four years, 1800–3, was 21,023,155 pounds; and the quantity, on an annual average of the four years, 1821–4, was 23,443,479 pounds; shewing an increase in consumption of scarcely 12 per cent, whilst the number of consumers have increased in that time about 35 per cent.
No. 44. That the annual average consumption of tobacco in Great Britain, in the five years 1800–4, was ll,855,3511bs., and in the five years 1820–4, was 13,022,851lbs., shewing an annual increase of consumption at the rate of ten per cent in the latter period; but, if the annual average consumption of 14,155,1661lbs. in the five years 1810–14 is taken, it will appear that since that period there has been an actual decrease of consumption, at the rate of eight per cent per annum, notwithstanding an increase of population of 17 per cent.
No. 45. That, in addition to the progressively increasing privations amongst the great body of the people, as manifested by the preceding resolutions, pauperism and crime have progressively increased to an alarming extent; and, notwithstanding the progressive diminution in the scale of allowance to paupers, the aggregate amount of the parochial assessments expended for their relief, since 1785, has trebled; and although the money amount has decreased in the three years ending Easter 1824, compared with the three years 1812–14, and the three years 1817–19; yet pauperism, whether considered in relation to its degrading and demoralising effects, or in relation to the pressure of the assessments, estimated either by the amount in money (if the
878
No. 46. That the progressive increase of crime is even more alarming than the increase of pauperism, as there were 4,692 persons committed to gaols in England and Wales for trial, charged with criminal offences, on the annual average of the five years 1805–9, whilst the numbers committed on the average of the years 1820–4 were 13,005, showing an increase at the rate of 178 per cent; and, if 14,437, the number committed in 1825, be compared with 4,605, the number committed in 1805, the increase will exceed 200 per cent in 21 years, exclusive of 22,106 committed under summary process in 1823.
No. 47. That whether the state of the nation be regarded in reference to the unparalleled extent of taxation—its application—the delusive and ruinous consequences of the sinking fund—the extension and complication of the accounts—the present situation of our manufacturing and commercial relations, or the degraded and wretched condition of the great body of the people, all evince the urgent necessity of an immediate investigation of the causes which have produced those existing evils, and the adoption of comprehensive and decisive measures, to avert the calamitous consequences that must otherwise ensue.
The motion for an address having been read,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose. He said, it was not until 11 o'clock that morning, that he was put in possession of the series of resolutions to which the hon. gentleman had just called the attention of the House; and when he stated, that those resolutions were no less than forty-seven in number, and occupied twenty-six printed pages, embracing the intricate question of the finance of the country in all its minute details, the funded debt, the unfunded debt, the sinking fund, the general state of the revenue,—divided as it was into a great variety of branches, to many of which these resolutions referred,—when he stated, that the proposition of the hon. gentleman comprised almost every topic that could be introduced into a discussion on the great interests of the country, he thought the House would not be surprised
879
880
l.
l.
l.
881
l.
Mr. Hume
said, he did not rely on the words stated in any publication to have been uttered by the right hon. gentleman. He relied on the statements made by that right hon. gentleman himself; statements of which he had a perfect recollection; for, when the discussion was ended he had gone over to the bench on which the right hon. gentleman sat, and had pointed out to him the errors of his statement.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
continued—What he stated was, that, comparing the debt as it stood on the 5th of January, 1816, with its amount on the 5th of January 1823, there was, in point of fact, an actual reduction; which reduction could not be accounted for, except by reference to the application, in some way or other, of a surplus revenue. On the 5th of January 1816, the amount of the funded debt was 816,311,446
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
882
l.
883
l.
l.
l.
l.,
l.
884
885
l.
l.
886
887
888
889
Mr. Brougham
thought, that the right hon. gentleman had misconceived his hon. friend, in supposing that he wished to take the right hon. gentleman by surprise, with respect to the present motion. The right hon. gentleman said, that he had no notice of these resolutions until eleven o'clock that day, when they were forwarded to him. Now, if that were a ground of complaint, he (Mr. Brougham) had still greater cause to complain than
890
891
l.
l.,
l.
l.
l.
892
893
894
Mr. Maberly
said, that the debt had not been reduced by the sum mentioned by the chancellor of the Exchequer, nor by any sum at all; and so it would have appeared if the accounts had been kept as they ought to have been. But the custom was, to keep them in a most intricate state; so that the fallacies could not be detected without the utmost attention. It turned out, however, that the nominal capital of the debt was 100 millions more than it was in 1819. "But," said the gentlemen opposite, "look at the charge of the debt." He was ready to meet them there too; and would refer to a paper drawn up by as good an accountant as any of these gentlemen. The statement given was by Mr. Higbam, and the result was, that in January, 1819, the debt was 832 millions; in 1826, the amount was 893 millions, being an increase of 61 millions. And then as to the charge of the debt, in 1819 it was 29,045,000
l.
l.,
l.
895
Mr. Robertson
expressed his regret, that this motion should have been brought forward and supported by the other side of the House, on the ground that there ought to be now given a relief from taxation. Such a proposition was only holding out delusive hopes to the country; for there was no prospect, in the present state of our revenue, of any relief from that source. Our revenue was 52,000,000
l.,
l.
The Speaker
was about to put the question, but not observing that any member seconded it,
Mr. Hume
proceeded to reply, observing that he would trouble the House with only a very few words more. He regretted that the chancellor of the Exchequer should have imagined that he intended to say any thing personal against him. He had never intended to do so, although the right hon. gentleman seemed to have imagined that he did. He could assure the right hon. gentleman that when he had made the statement alluded to, he went over to the right hon. gentleman and mentioned, that he was surprised that he could have made such a statement. He had afterwards seen the right hon. gentleman, and showed him clearly,
896
Mr. Robertson
spoke to order. He had moved an adjournment of the debate.
The Speaker
having observed, that he had not heard the motion seconded,
Mr. Robertson
having referred to Mr. Alderman Heygate, as having seconded the adjournment,
The Speaker
put the question.
Mr. Hume
resumed his reply. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that as his first resolution was erroneous, the whole of the rest depending upon it were gone. But the truth was, no answer had been given to his resolutions. He had put it to the House in the strongest language, that it was necessary to diminish the expenditure, but so as not to touch the public creditor. It was most extraordinary, therefore, that he should have been charged by the hon. member for Grampound with any view to prevent our keeping faith with the public creditor. The plan which he suggested was, to save five millions, by putting an end to the sinking-fund—five millions by so far diminishing the ordinary expenditure. By this means ten millions annually would be saved to the nation. In 1792, the whole of the expenditure for the military, and other ordinary purposes of government, was five and a half millions. In the present year, the expenditure for the same purposes was 26 millions. Now, if the expenditure in 1792 was only from five to six millions, why might not the same purposes be answered now by an expenditure of twelve or thirteen millions? But then, when the expenses of foreign embassies were so extraordinary, and when an ambassador was permitted to expend 30,000
l.
897
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw. While they were leaving the gallery,
Mr. Alderman Heygate
said, that as it appeared by the rules of the House, that in consequence of having seconded the amendment, he was precluded from speaking on the main question, he would only observe, that he had done so to prevent the premature conclusion of the debate on a subject the most interesting in the present state of the country. This was the only reason why he had seconded the amendment.
The House divided on Mr. Hume's motion: Ayes 51; Noes 152. Majority against the motion 101.
List of the Minority.
Allan, J. H.
Lloyd, sir E. P.
Althorp, viscount
Maberly, John
Barret, S. M.
Maberly, W. L.
Bernal, Ralph
Marjoribanks, S.
Bright, H.
Milbank, Mark
Brougham, H.
Monck, J. B.
Burdett, sir F.
Palmer, C.
Byng, Geo.
Palmer, C. F.
Calcraft, John
Powlett, hon. W.
Calvert, Chas.
Ramsden, J. C.
Cradock, Sheldon
Rickford, W.
Creevey, T.
Robarts, A. W.
Davies, T.
Robinson, sir G.
Denman, T.
Russell, lord J.
Dundas, hon. T.
Scarlett, James
Ellice, E.
Smith, hon. R.
Fergusson, sir R.
Taylor, M. A.
Glenorchy, visct.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Heygate, ald.
Webbe, E.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Wharton, John
Howard, hon. W.
Whitbread, S. C.
Howard, H.
Williams, John
Hurst, Robt.
Wilson, sir R.
Ingleby, sir W.
Wood, M.
James, Williams
TELLERS.
Johnstone, W.A.
Knight, R.
Hume, J.
Leader, Wm.
Duncannon, lord
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, May 5 1826.
IRISH CHARTER SCHOOLS.
The Bishop of Ferns
rose pursuant to notice, and said—My object in placing these letters upon your lordships table was, to make use of them for the defence of the committee by which the business of the
898
899
900
901
902
903
904
905
Lord King
observed, that the reverend prelate had at least failed in one point which he had promised to establish; namely, that the catechists had not failed in their duty, and had complied with the rules of their office. The reverend lord appeared to be very angry with the Report, against which he directed the principal part of his resentment. The reverend lord had spent the greater part of his life in Ireland; but when he had been a little longer in this country, he would find, to use the phraseology of the noble lord at the head of the Treasury, that it was not the fashion here to make a scandalous misuse of the public money. And a greater misapplication of the public money he did not know of, than that of the Chartered schools in Ireland. For these schools there had been paid 1,600,000
l.
s
906
l.
907
The Bishop of Ferns
said, that it would be merely necessary for him, in reply to the observations of the noble lord, to refer to the Report of the commissioners, in which they stated that these schools were conducted with good order, and in a manner highly creditable to those who had the superintendence of them.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he felt quite assured, from the inquiries which had taken place, and from the knowledge thus obtained by the king's government, that something would ere long be done towards the amelioration of the system. He had read, with great diligence, the exculpatory papers moved for by the learned prelate, and had also looked over the Report of the commissioners, and he must say, that the impression made by them differed very much from that which they seemed to have produced on the mind of the learned prelate. Letters were occasionally transmitted from seven-
908
The Earl of Darnley
condemned, in severe terms, the principle on which Charter schools were managed in Ireland, particularly the practice of taking Roman Catholic children from their parents, and bringing them up in the Protestant faith.
The Bishop of Bath and Wells
said, there was no institution without some faults. It could not be denied that there had been gross errors and abuses in the management of those schools; but he trusted the inquiry would be productive of good, and that the patrons of such establishments would, in future, be more careful in the management of them. He hoped nothing that had been said that night would tend to prejudice the furtherance of education in Ireland; for there was no country on the face of the globe where religious education was more wanting.
Here the conversation dropped.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 5 1826.
EXPORTATION OF MACHINERY.
Mr. Hume
presented two petitions, on a subject which he conceived to be of the highest importance, one from the Machine-makers of Manchester, and another from their workmen, in the same place; stating, that they had received large orders for machinery from abroad, and that they
909
l.,
910
Mr. Grenfell
concurred in all that had been so well said by his hon. friend; but he regretted that the subject was mentioned during the accidental absence of any of his majesty's ministers, and the more so, as he had reason to believe that they agreed with the views of his hon. friend. He knew one of those power-loom manufactories at Manchester, which gave employment to 150 men—although it was prohibited from exportation. But the result of this prohibition was, that if the machinery was not smuggled out of the kingdom, the artizans were; and he had heard there were now agents from
911
Ordered to lie on the table.
PETITION OF MR. O'CONNELL COMPLAINING THAT LORD NORBURY IS SUPERANNUATED.
Mr. Scarlett
said, he held in his hand a petition from Mr. O'Connell, the Irish barrister, praying for the interference of the House, in order to remove lord Norbury from the Chief Justice ship of the Common Pleas of Ireland. He felt that the subject was one of a peculiarly delicate nature; but, as he perceived nothing objectionable in the language of the petition, and as it had been forwarded to him for presentation, he would discharge his duty, putting the House as shortly as possible in possession of the substance of the allegations relative to the learned lord. The Petitioner expressed very clearly the disinclination he felt to interfere with the subject, if he had seen a disposition in any other quarter to have saved him the painful duty of standing forward on this occasion. He had hoped that the lapse of time might have rendered it unnecessary for him to lay his complaints before the House; but having been disappointed in these expectations, he could no longer refrain from calling the notice of parliament to a subject so deeply affecting the administration of justice in Ireland. He begged it to be understood that he preferred no imputation on the honour or integrity of the learned lord. He alleged simply, that he was incapacited from the adequate performance of his judicial duties, by the infirmity and debility consequent upon old age. In particular the learned lord was so subject to lethargic stupor, that he would frequently fall fast asleep in the middle of the trial at which he was presiding. In one instance it occurred that on a trial for murder, which took place in Ireland before the chief justice of the Common Pleas, his lordship fell asleep, and so remained during the greater part of the evidence. The consequence was, that
912
913
Mr. Goulburn
said, that as the learned gentleman had distinctly declared that he had no intention of bringing forward any motion on this petition, it was scarcely necessary for him to make any observations upon it. But he could not help calling the attention of the House to the situation in which the learned lord was placed. The petition related purely to a question of opinion. Was an individual, because he had attained a particular age, to be held to be so utterly disqualified as to be incompetent to the discharge of his duty for the future? Who had pretended to fix the day beyond which a judge was no longer deemed worthy of his seat? It was well known, that there were, and had been, many judges who had performed their duty to the entire satisfaction of the public, at an age equally advanced with that of the chief justice of the Common Pleas of Ireland. The learned lord's health was as good as at any period of his life, and he (Mr. G.) had observed nothing in his public or private intercourse with him, that could justify the allegation that he was unfit for his office. The right hon. gentleman, with reference to that part of the petition in which the petitioner appealed to the other judges of the Court of Common Pleas for evidence of the incompetency of the chief justice, stated, that he was decidedly of opinion, they would declare him to be perfectly competent. A case had occurred in that Court, only the term before he quitted Ireland, which removed all doubt as to the ability of the learned lord. An argument of great difficulty was heard before the judges in banco. The chief justice differed from all his learned brethren on an important point of law. The case was afterwards argued before the twelve judges, and they decided, in accordance with the opinion of the learned lord, and against that of the three other judges of the Common Pleas. He did not deny that it might be proper to lay down a general rule, that judges should not sit after they had attained a certain age; but, it would be manifestly unfair to make the learned lord suffer by its operation, when it was not intended to be applied to others.
914
Mr. North
admitted, that that part of the allegations of the petition against the learned lord was undoubtedly true, in which it was stated that he was eighty-five years of age, and he had ascertained, having taken pains to make the inquiry, that there was no judge so old either in Ireland, or in this country. He agreed, too, that the learned lord would have consulted his ease, his dignity, the wishes of his best friends, and the interests of the administration of justice, if he had retired from the bench some time since. But, whenever he should retire from the court over which he had so long presided, and in which he had displayed such unrivalled courtesy and kindness to the whole bar, he would leave behind him a remembrance of his admirable temper and unequalled suavity, which would long continue, after the infirmities of his declining age would be forgotten. Not for worlds would he have brought forward this subject himself; but, as it had been introduced, he was glad that an opportunity had been given to him of discharging a most painful duty.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, there was a strong probability that the individual whom he was proud to call his friend, had been induced to retain his seat, from having heard that a petition was to be presented against him. He was prevented from retiring, lest it should appear that he had yielded to the menace held out against him. His high integrity had never been impeached; and, considering the manner in which this petition had been reluctantly brought forward by the learned gentleman, he, speaking as the friend of the learned lord, felt that no impediment was raised in the way of his retirement by this petition. No part of it cast the slightest suspicion on the purity of his judicial conduct. He might retire without the shadow of an imputation on any portion of his long public life.
Ordered to lie on the table.
CORN LAWS.
Lord Stanley
rose to present a Petition from Bury, in Lan-
915
Mr. Huskisson
quite concurred in opinion with the noble lord. The only object of allowing the corn to come out of bond without duty would be, to relieve the sellers of corn from the tax, and enable them to put the difference in their pockets. He availed himself of that opportunity to allude to a circumstance which had taken place on the previous evening, relative to the corn-market at Liverpool. He did so with perfect good humour; but he could not refrain from advising the hon. baronet, who had addressed him on that occasion, to be a little more on his guard as to the information he received. The hon. baronet had stated, that he had his information on the best authority, and that he placed entire reliance upon it. Now, he begged attention to these circumstances. At Liverpool there were two corn-markets weekly, one on Tuesday, and the other on Saturday. He had received a letter on Tuesday, the 25th of April, prior to that Saturday on which the hon. baronet had stated, that extraordinary activity had been manifested in the sale of bonded corn. The letter was to the following effect:—"We take the liberty to suggest, that great advantage might be made by the judicious purchase by government of bonded corn, to be re-sold to the Committees in aid of the distressed mechanics." This letter was signed, "Booth and Walmsley," The wheat in bond at that time was selling at from 4
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.
d.
d.
916
Sir T. Lethbridge
expressed his opinion, that the authority of the right hon. gentleman was more likely to be correct than that on which he had relied. At the same time he must say, that he had the most entire conviction that the authority, from which he had received his information was convinced of its truth.
Mr. Heathcote
presented a petition from certain persons engaged in the Corn-trade at Boston, against the bill now before the House. They stated, that the effect of the present measure would be, to put money into the pockets of the holders of foreign corn. There was another part of the petition which was very important. It proceeded from some of the most considerable corn merchants of Boston, who stated, that on the faith of the decisions of that House, and the statements of the right hon. gentleman opposite, they had embarked a considerable portion of their capital in corn; and the consequence of the intended measure would be, that they must suffer considerably.
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, it appeared to him, that the best course would be, for
917
Sir J. Sebright
said, that one of the arguments in favour of this measure was, the moral effect to be produced in consequence of letting loose the quantity of corn now locked up within the very sight of the distressed people. But to his moral sense, it seemed that gentlemen opposite wished to allow the people to suppose they could derive benefit from the violation of the laws. However, be the duty what it might, the effect of this measure would be, at the most, to reduce the bread a penny a loaf. If he could believe that the proposed measure would tend to produce any substantial benefit to the distressed manufacturers, he would give it his support. But, as he had said on a former evening, if this measure should pass now, it would settle the corn question for ever; but he lamented that, for the sake of reducing the price of bread one half-penny, or one penny, this indirect mode should be resorted to of altering the Corn-laws. He was sorry that this course had been resorted to at all, but particularly by ministers, in whom he was move disposed to repose confidence, than in any administration of which he had a recollection.
Mr. T. Wilson
said, that the object of the proposed measure was, not to reduce the price of corn, but to prevent its, rising to a prejudicial degree. The measure would not benefit the foreign corn dealer; for the greater portion of the bonded corn had been imported on British account. And one of the beneficial advantages flowing from the measure would be, to afford an opportunity to have the warehouses replenished when the present quantity should be removed; so that hereafter we might not be compelled to depend for our supply upon foreigners, instead of the stock in our own granaries.
Ordered to lie on the table.
CORN LAWS—BONDED CORN.
Mr. Canning
Sir T. Lethbridge
assured the House, that he retained the entire opposition which he had, on a former evening, stated to the measure. He would not, however, object to the Speaker's leaving the chair, because he was desirous of hearing, from the mouths of ministers,
918
The House having resolved itself into a committee,
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose and said.— Although, Sir, it would have been very unusual to offer any opposition to your taking the chair for the purpose of resuming the consideration of a subject in committee, in the same form to which the House had already consented, yet I feel bound to offer my thanks for the courtesy of the hon. baronet and those who act with him, in allowing us at once to enter into an examination of the question, in a manner more convenient and satisfactory than we otherwise could have done, had they persisted in the opposition which they threatened. Before, however, I proceed to an explanation of that resolution which I am about to propose, I will take leave, with the permission of the House, to clear away some general objections to which the whole of the measures have been subjected—objections which, although they might not, if left unanswered, prejudice the principle of these measures, yet might, nevertheless, excite some prejudice against them, by throwing blame on those whose duty it was to propose them. I am further anxious to say a few words on that subject, because it is my earnest desire to free my right hon. colleagues and myself from any thing like a breach of faith, such as has been more than once attempted to be cast upon us, in the course of these proceedings. Most undoubtedly, I did, on the first day of the present session, make a declaration, which I am equally ready to admit I have renewed since, that I was of opinion the present was not a convenient season to enter into a consideration of the Corn-trade, with a view of making any alteration in the laws which affected it. That opinion I have proclaimed more than once. Upon that opinion I have, throughout the whole course of this session, acted; and I now declare, without hesitation, that it still remains unchanged. And still more, that if any one will consider these resolutions with a fair and unprejudiced judgment, they will find that they are characterised by a strict conformity with such an opinion, and art solely intended to enable his majesty's ministers and this House, without incon-
919
920
921
922
923
924
925
926
927
928
929
930
s.
s.
931
932
"That it is the opinion of this Committee, that it is expedient to empower his majesty, by any order or orders of his majesty in council, to permit, under certain regulations, and for a time to be limited, the entry, for home consumption, of an additional quantity of foreign corn, meal, or flour, subject to the duties which may be imposed by any act to be passed in this session of parliament."
Mr. Carus Wilson,
as an humble representative of the landed interest, felt that he had little pretensions to claim the indulgence of the committee; and yet he did trust that, for the little he had to say on this occasion, he should be heard with some degree of attention. Upon a question of this kind, he thought the House would care but little whether the individual who addressed them was possessed of his 2,000
l.
l.
933
Sir Thomas Lethbridge
said, he rose under great difficulties, to speak upon this question, after the right hon. Secretary, who had addressed himself to it in his usual agreeable and fascinating manner.
934
s.
s.
s.
935
s.
s.
s.
s.,
936
s.
Mr. Portman
said, he was certainly one of those who had been most opposed to the resolution in question, in its first stage; for he did not believe the distresses of the districts in which the greatest suffering existed to have arisen either from the high price of corn or the scarcity
937
938
Mr. H. Sumner
conceived, that the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs had argued as if the country were either in a state of actual famine, or approaching to such a state. This was made the ground of justification of the measures now proposed. But it was a singular piece of inconsistency on the part of his majesty's ministers, that whereas, on the 18th of April last only, they had declared that the country was not in a state to permit of the effecting any alteration in the Corn-laws, they now came down with propositions directly affecting the principle and altering the operation of those laws. They could not say they were taken by surprise; for the only difference between that period and the present was, that then the same distresses existed, but now they had broken out into acts of violence and outrage. If they were taken by surprise, the fact spoke but little for their foresight. If they were not, their present proceeding was one of extraordinary inconsistency with their recent declaration. For his own part, he had no objection to take to himself his full share of that responsibility which the hon. member for Dorsetshire had said he threw from him. The country, in his opinion, called on the landed interest to assume that responsibility, and he should oppose the resolution of one of his majesty's ministers, the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade, although one of the committee who prepared the bill, the principle of which was so directly affected, had ever since been, by his votes in that House, actually trenching upon it. —"Last year," said the right hon. gentleman, "when permission was given to take out foreign bonded corn at a certain duty, that permission had not been attended
939
Mr. Secretary Peel
said:—Sir, since I have had the honour of a seat in parliament, I do not remember to have heard such unfounded charges of inconsistency as those which have just been advanced against his majesty's government. I am
940
941
Mr. Sumner.
—I did not vote for it.
Mr. Peel.
—But did my hon. friend oppose it? Was he not prepared to admit foreign wheat, under such circumstances, into the market? I do appeal to the landed interest, to those members of it who are now present in the committee, and to that fairness and manliness which I know them to possess; and I call upon them, if they wish to prohibit the admission of foreign corn generally, with a view to prevent competition, and have yet been willing, under some circumstances, to let it come in; if they see no inconsistency in this, I say, do let them feel rightly for those who propose to parliament a measure which may have the effect of alleviating the pressure which weighs so heavily on the manufacturing community. Sir, I can have no prepossessions against either the manufacturing or the agricul-
942
943
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
944
945
946
d.
d.
d.
d.;
s.
d.
s.
d.,
d.
d.;
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.;
s.
d.
s.
d.;
s.
s.;
s.
s.;
s.
s.
s.
s.,
s.
947
948
949
Lord Althorp
said, he must oppose the motion, because he considered it nothing less than an indirect and unfair tampering with the Corn-laws, and that it would, if carried into effect, place all the farms in the country at the mercy and disposal of his majesty's ministers. Was it pretended that it was absolutely necessary to dissolve parliament before the ensuing harvest? And, if not, surely there was sufficient time to enter minutely into the whole question, and set it at rest.
Colonel Davies
said, he was anxious to see the Corn-laws repealed; but he took a different view of the present measure from his majesty's ministers, though he should vote with them upon it. The rise in the price of corn, which the right hon. Secretary had brought forward in proof of a deficiency, might be accounted for in a different way. During the time that our bankers and merchants were failing, there had been a considerable fall in the price of agricultural produce; but the panic having now, in a great measure, subsided, and confidence been partially restored, it was but natural to suppose that it would again rise. With regard to the fall in the price of cotton, and various other articles, quoted by the right hon. gentleman, it was well known, that vast speculations had taken place in all of them, and produced convulsions from which they had not yet recovered. There was, therefore, no just ground for the inference drawn from the rise in the one, and the fall in the other, that there was a deficiency of corn in the country. The measure which he would have preferred, and which government ought to have pursued, was a complete and final revision of
950
Mr. Benett
said, that though he had lost none of his repugnance to the measure now proposed, yet he should not make any very determined opposition to it. A right hon. gentleman had compared the prices of corn and cotton, but he did not think that a fair mode of stating the question. There was no similarity between them, and there was no ground of comparison. The right hon. gentleman had contrasted the fluctuations in the prices of wheat, as compared with other articles, in rather an unfair manner. He would contrast it in a way more likely to lead to a correct conclusion: he would compare the ten years preceding the year 1792 with the ten years preceding the year 1826, to show that wheat had not kept pace in its rise with other articles. The increase of price in the latter ten years over the former was as follows, in the undermentioned articles:—wine, 190 per cent; shoes, 200; hats, 200; bricks and tiles, 100; coals, 75; glass bottles, 72; butter, 25; labour (annual) 60; labour (daily) 33; wheat only 25 per cent; therefore the increase in favour of wheat was not as great as had been represented.
Sir W. W. Wynn
said, he was glad that the House had agreed to give out to the country the corn in bond, as he conceived that it would prove a most seasonable relief to the unfortunate persons who were unhappily suffering from want of employment. He gave his most cordial consent to this motion, feeling, that if it should be found necessary to act upon it, a great and seasonable relief would be afforded to the country.
Mr. Whitmore
said, that it was not his intention to occupy much of the time of the House, and he should not have risen at all, had it not been that frequent allusions had been made to the measure which he had brought forward, and so many charges thrown out against him for bringing it forward. Ministers had thrown in his teeth, that he had adopted a bad course, by agitating the question, after they had decided against any alteration of the law during the present session; but
951
952
Mr. Secretary Canning
assured the hon. member, that he had much mistaken him if he supposed that he meant to impute blame to him for the motion he had made. He had certainly spoken of the inconvenience to which it had put them, but he had never thought of denying the perfect right of the hon. gentleman to originate such a motion.
Lord Milton
said, he had no disposition to enter at any length upon the question before the House. Whatever vote he might ultimately give, he should make no opposition to the measure in its present stage. What he had risen principally to notice, was the speech of the hon. member for Denbighshire. The alteration which had taken place since Tuesday last, might convince him that the power of the landed interest was neither unseen, nor unfelt. He had no wish that it should be either unseen or unfelt. If in any observations which he had made respecting country gentlemen and landed proprietors, to which body he had the honour to belong, he had given them cause to feel aggrieved, he could safely say, that those observations were made with the view of attracting their attention to the subject. If they would do so, he felt persuaded that they would soon arrive at the same conclusion to which he had come; namely, that their own interests, and the interests of the country would be best promoted, by applying the same principles to corn, which
953
s.
s.
954
Mr. Calcraft
admitted, that the manner in which the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had treated the subject that evening did him great credit; but great credit was also due to those who compelled them to adopt this course. Although premature discussion had been censured on a former night, it had had the beneficial effect of occasioning the present modification of the original plan; which modification, he candidly confessed, seemed far less objectionable. What was now proposed was not a settlement of the question of the Corn-laws by a side wind; it had nothing to do with the duty or price; but it gave ministers a power to do a certain definite act, in the contemplation of a state of affairs, which probably might exist during the recess of parliament, instead of requiring them afterwards to call upon both Houses to grant them indemnity for a course which they had been imperatively called upon to pursue. His view of the condition of the country was at variance with that of the right hon. gentleman; but, Heaven forbid that he should set up his notion, formed, perhaps, without adequate means of knowledge, against the deliberate opinion of ministers, when the comfort, happiness, and tranquillity of the whole population was concerned. The pride of opinion should never carry him so far as to risk such sacred interests, even though he felt satisfied that he derived it from the best sources of information. One circumstance he could not understand. Corn at this moment was 7
s.
s.
955
956
Colonel Trench
observed, that the sting appeared now to have been taken out of the scorpion's tail; and, although he did not think the measure in its present shape calculated to give much relief, yet he thought it would be cruel to withhold the power to do good which it did convey. He was surprised that no reference had been made to Ireland, which, from its soil and climate, was fully capable of supplying England with corn. There was only one thing wanting in Ireland to make such a plan eligible, and that was habits of industry in the people.
Mr. T. Wilson
said, that he had come down to the House to oppose the measure of ministers, but that the alteration made in it was so great, that he could no longer oppose it.
The resolution was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, May 8 1826.
CORN LAWS—MR. JACOB'S REPORT.
Lord King
wished to mention a subject of importance, inasmuch as it was materially connected with the privileges of their lordships' House. He had lately seen, in a printed pamphlet, a statement which was a gross and a scandalous libel upon the House. He did not mean to say that it was also a false libel; for, libel as it was, it might be very true. But then their lordships well knew that, in the eye of the law, the fact of a libel being true was a greater proof of malice, and only added to the guilt of the libeller. He had seen the statement of which he complained in the first edition of the libellous publication to which he had alluded, and which he understood was now undergoing a second edition. The libel, he believed, would make its appearance in the second edition also, and thus be further propagated. He should now read it to their lordships, and when they heard it, he had no doubt that it would have on them—as had been said of libellous publications in another place—the effect of making their hair stand on end; and he was sure they would agree with him in considering it a scandalous libel and breach of the privileges of their lordships' House. It was a passage of a memoir circulated among the landowners of a part of the continent [Appendix 9 of Mr. Jacob's Report]. Alluding to the post-
957
958
The Earl of Limerick
congratulated himself that for once he should agree with the noble lord. He did really think that the paragraph which had been quoted contained a libellous insinuation, and rejoiced that the noble lord had in any way brought the subject before the House. The country was at the eve of a general election; their lordships knew the state of distress into which the manufacturers were plunged; and he was afraid that measures were now brewing which would place the agriculturists in a similar situation. The noble lord deprecated any contest between the two Houses of Parliament.
CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
Lord Dudley and Ward
presented a petition from the Roman Catholic inhabitants of Roscommon, praying to be relieved from those disqualifications under which they laboured. The petition, he observed, was signed by several thousands, and this circumstance might readily be credited, when it was considered, that the Roman Catholic religion was the religion of the great majority of the country, of which Roscommon formed a part, and which, until three hundred years ago, had been the religion of the whole of Europe. However erroneous that faith might be, the Roman Catholics had an excuse for not abandoning it; for too few steps had been taken to convince them of their error, either by the government or by the clergy. They had been told that their religion was one of superstition and idolatry; but not much, as far as he had yet heard, had been offered to them in the way of argument, to convince them of the justice of this reproach. They had formerly laboured under heavy pains and disqualifications. They had been released by the bounty and wisdom of parliament from all those penalties, and the greater part of those disqualifications, and they prayed to be exempt from the remainder. He was not disposed to violate that sort of tacit convention, by which it was understood this subject was to be allowed to rest undisturbed during the present session of parliament; and, if he had any influence with the Roman Catholics, he would advise them to refer their case to those persons who had so ably advanced their cause. The Roman Catholics, as far as parliament was concerned, were in
959
Ordered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, May 8 1826.
CORN LAWS.
Sir T. Lethbridge
presented a petition signed by the Chairman and four members who constituted a committee of the Norfolk Agricultural Society, stating that the measure now before the House relating to foreign corn, would, if it should become the law of the land, virtually repeal the Corn-laws—that the petitioners, confiding in the assurances of his majesty's ministers, and the resolutions of majorities of both Houses of parliament, that no alteration should be made in the Corn-laws during the present session, were quite taken by surprise, and deprived of all opportunity of opposing, as effectually as they otherwise might have done, what they could not but consider as an impending evil,—that if the poor manufacturers stood in need of relief, it ought to be afforded to them in the same manner as it was afforded to the other necessitous classes of the community,—that the petitioners were willing to contribute their proportion towards such relief, but
960
Mr. Benett
thought, it would appear
961
CONDUCT OF LORD CHARLES SOMERSET.
Colonel Beaumont
said, he rose to present a petition from Mr. Bishop Burnett, complaining of the conduct of lord Charles Somerset. He regretted that the petition had not fallen into the hands of some one more competent than himself for such an undertaking; but, as he was convinced of the justice of it, and as he had been promised able assistance whenever its merits should be examined into, he should not have felt himself justified if he had declined to present it. It was not either his own wish, or that of the petitioner, that this petition should afford an opportunity of throwing out or promulgating general invective against lord Charles Somerset. As lieutenant-colonel Bird, owing to his having been the secretary at the Cape, was well acquainted with the character and conduct of lord Charles Somerset, the petitioner desired that he should be examined at the bar of the House. The petitioner also complained, that the colonial secretary had refused to grant him permission to return to the Cape, for the purpose of enabling him to procure evidence, which would substantiate the charges he had to bring forward against the noble lord. The present charges were the same as those which the petitioner had brought before this House on the 16th of June last, and he himself had now felt it a matter of delicacy and difficulty, as to whether he should enter into a recapitulation of those charges or not: but whether he was acting right or wrong, he had resolved not to do so; which mode of proceeding would, he trusted, convince the House that his object was justice and not slander. He hoped the colonial secretary would not deny the desired permission to the petitioner, as the granting it would not imply any thing as to the legality or illegality of the original banishment from that colony of the petitioner for five years, to which he had been sentenced for a libel; which libel was nothing more than a memorial which he had presented to the governor of the colony, complaining of
962
The petition was then read as follows:
"To the Hon. the Commons of Great Britain and Ireland, in Parliament assembled.
"The Petition of Bishop Burnett, of the Cape of Good Hope, gent., respectfully showeth,
"That your petitioner presented a petition to your hon. House during the last session of parliament, inculpating the conduct of lord Charles Somerset, in his capacity of governor of the Cape of Good Hope, and setting forth sundry grievances sustained by your petitioner from the oppressive measures of his excellency, through the medium of the judicial authorities at the Cape.
"That his majesty's ministers having deprecated the institution of any proceedings thereon during the current session, on the plea of leave of absence having been granted to his excellency to repair to England, for the purpose of meeting the charges exhibited against him, and lord Edward Somerset having pledged himself for the prompt return of his noble relative to face his accusers in parliament, your petitioner presented a second petition, requesting of your hon. House to
963
"That the under colonial Secretary of State having virtually promised the sanction of his department to your petitioner's return, by pledging its accedence to his request, on the exhibition of a just pretext, your hon. House thought proper to decline acting on his petition; and your petitioner took measures for his immediate return to the colony, when to his astonishment this leave thus promised was peremptorily withheld by earl Bathurst—an act of injustice best illustrated to your hon. House by supposing the parallel case of a magistrate refusing to facilitate the conviction of a felon, by throwing impediments in the way of his prosecutor.
"That your petitioner, after encountering the systematic persecution set forth in his memorial to your hon. House, with the final sentence of banishment from the Cape, an act alone of arbitrary and unwarrantable authority, has found his complaints utterly disregarded by earl Bathurst, and himself taunted with imputations by the under colonial secretary, which have no other foundation than his own surmise, in his endeavour to screen lord Charles Somerset from the consequence of his misgovernment: a misgovernment your petitioner would now have been prepared to prove to your hon. House much beyond the extent of the charges exhibited, had earl Bathurst have granted your petitioner leave to return to the Cape, in fulfilment of Mr. Horton's pledge to your hon. House.
"That as his majesty's commissioners of inquiry at the Cape have, by an extraordinary course of proceeding, intimidated witnesses from giving in their testimony in the scrutiny of grave charges against his excellency the governor, your petitioner cannot perceive that the reference of the colonial department to the functions of those gentlemen furnishes any satisfactory hope of redress when their long-protracted report does arrive. Your petitioner therefore protests against any conclusions being drawn or any decision being formed in his case from an investigation necessarily partial and imperfect, in a colony where your petitioner has no hesitation in declaring, no man dares disclose a truth in the slightest degree
964
"That your petitioner most respectfully begs leave to impress upon the consideration of your hon. House, that if acts of unjustifiable aggression committed by governors of colonies are to find support through the power of family influence from authorities delegated to control them, it becomes especially incumbent on your hon. House to extend its protection to those victims of oppression who are hardy enough to encounter the consequences inevitably incurred by opposition to the wishes of government, in denouncing the guilt of its favoured deputies: otherwise it must be apparent that the right of petition is unavailing—that the licence of uncontrolled authority has no limit; and that in its encroaching progression, not only the liberty and property, but the very life, of the colonist subject may be sacrificed to a bad temperament in any tyrannic governor. Your petitioner therefore prays, that your hon. House will take his case into consideration, and examine lieutenant-colonel Bird touching the premises previous to his return to the Cape of Good Hope."
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that as he had not seen the petition before it was presented, and as he had not been informed of the nature of the charges it contained, he was to a certain degree unprepared to answer the allegations of it. He was not, however, surprised to hear that the petitioner impugned the motives, and protested against the report, of the commissioners; for the petitioner could not help being aware, that that report must be unfavourable to himself. Had he been previously interrogated by any hon. member on the subject, he would have stated to the House then, what he felt it to be his duty to state now, that a voluminous report had been received by the colonial department from the commissioners, and was ready to be laid, at any moment, upon the table of the House. The House, if it would take the trouble of reading the evidence annexed to that report, would be qualified to decide, whether it ought to concur in the opinion of the commissioners, that the charges which the petitioner had preferred against lord Charles Somerset were grossly exaggerated, and were not such as required the interference of that House. Even from the statement of the petitioner himself, it was evident that he inculpated lord Charles Somerset for what
965
Mr. Hume
said, that at an early period of the session, he had inquired if any report had been received from the commis-
966
967
Colonel Davies
wished to know why this report had been kept back by the government to such a late period or the session, that it would be impossible to get it printed before the close of it.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, he had not presented it, because he thought that the House would not enter into a discussion of it until the return of lord C. Somerset. If any gentleman had asked him a question on the subject, he should have given him, without any reserve, the same information which he had that evening afforded to the House.
Mr. Fyshe Palmer
recollected, that on the occasion when this subject was before the House last session, it was said, that
968
Lord E. Somerset
said, that as the petitioner alluded to a pledge given by a relation of lord C. Somerset in the last session, that he would promptly return to face his accusers in parliament on receiving leave of absence from the government at home, and as the hon. members for Montrose and Reading had both said, that the fact of his noble relative's not being now in England was proof that he wished to evade the fulfilment of that pledge, he rose for the purpose of contradicting the assertion. He rose for the purpose of declaring most unequivocally, that his noble relative had been most anxious to leave the Cape of Good Hope, on first hearing of the charges made against him; but that he had been ordered by the government at home—and he spoke in the presence of those who could confirm his assertion—not to leave it, until the arrival of the lieutenant-governor. The lieutenant-governor did not arrive till the 9th of February last, and his noble relative had sailed from the Cape of Good Hope as soon afterwards as he possibly could. No one could feel greater regret than his noble relative did, in not having been able to face his accusers in the present session. He still was in hopes that his noble relative would arrive before parliament separated, as letters had arrived in England, stating that he had left St. Helena. Indeed, had it not been for the continual succession of north winds for some time past, it was
969
Sir F. Burdett
said, that every man must admire the feeling with which the noble lord had defended the conduct and character of his noble relation. Upon that conduct and upon that character he should not make any remark at present, as it would not be proper for him to venture any opinion upon charges of which he knew almost nothing. He would, however, give his opinion upon the propriety of taking the evidence of lieutenant-colonel Bird, before he set sail again for the Cape of Good Hope. That was a point of so much importance, that he trusted ministers would, for their own sake, for the sake of the noble lord now under accusation, and still more for the sake of the petitioner, not deprive him of the means of securing that evidence which he described as most important to the prosecution of his claim for redress.
970
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, he did not know how colonel Bird was in any respect connected with the charges brought against lord Charles Somerset. Those charges were of a nature of which colonel Bird could know nothing, as would be seen, whenever the report appendix was printed. If any subject could be pointed out on which colonel Bird could afford to the House any information which the petitioner might deem favourable to his cause, he would have no objection to grant his request; but at present he did not know how any gentleman could put a question to colonel Bird, if he was at the bar, relative to the complaints made by the petitioner. Surely the petitioner must state something specific before his prayer could be acceded to.
Sir F. Burdett
said, the petitioner stated that he conceived colonel Bird to be a material witness on his side.
Mr. Brougham
said, it would be unjust to the colony, to lord C. Somerset, and to the petitioner, if colonel Bird were not examined as to his knowledge of the facts of this case.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it was easy for gentlemen to talk of detaining colonel Bird, to examine him upon these points; but the fact was, that government had no power to detain him. He was going on his own private business to the Cape of Good Hope, and not on that of the government. What right, therefore, could government have to say that he should not quit the country?
The Speaker,
who had been reading the petition, here interrupted the discussion. He said, that in all cases where a double construction could be put upon the wording of a petition, the House put upon it such construction as was most favourable to the petitioner. There were, however, some cases, in which only one construction could be put upon it, and that construction was fatal to the petition. He believed that there were in the present petition, words which rendered it imperative upon the House to reject it. [Here the Speaker read the second and third clauses of the petition, in which reference is made to declarations of lord E. Somerset and Mr. Wilmot Horton in the House of Commons.] He thought that such reference, according to the usual rules of the House, made it imperative on them not to receive the petition.
Mr. Canning
declared his unwillingness to reject a petition of this nature, on the
971
Mr. Beaumont
expressed his readiness to withdraw the petition, inasmuch as it did not contain any specific charges, and he had, in some degree, obtained his object.
The petition was withdrawn.
CORN LAWS.
On the order of the day for receiving the Report of the Committee on the Corn-laws,
Mr. Heatkcote
said, he would oppose the bringing up of the report. He would not object to that part of the measure which had reference to the letting out of the bonded corn, because it manifested the sympathy and concern of the House, and its anxiety to do every thing for the relief of the distress which now unhappily prevailed. But he must give his opposition to that part which related to the duty. It did not matter whether the duty was 12
s.
s.,
Mr. Calcraft
rejoiced that he had taken the course which he had done on the last night that this subject was under discussion. He was convinced that, in not dividing the House, he and his friends had done right, considering that the proposition then made was a new proposition, and therefore ought to be fairly considered. Many of the objections which he entertained to the original proposition, he did not entertain at present; for the words price and duty were left out of the resolution. As ministers had, on their own
972
973
Mr. Bankes
wished that the report might be brought up, and the bill introduced, that the House might be in possession of something on which to found a discussion. When it was brought in he would take an opportunity of expressing his opinions upon the subject.
Mr. Leycester
said, he was not opposed to a discretion, even of wide latitude, being placed in the hands of ministers, provided the maximum of duty was placed at a sufficiently high rate. He thought 20
s.
Lord Belgrave
was desirous of taking this opportunity of expressing his disapproval of the measure. It divided itself into two parts; the one which related to the letting out the bonded corn, and the other to the discretionary power of permitting the importation of 500,000 quarters. As to the first of these propositions, it was considered as a relief to the manufacturers; but, so far from its being so, it was, in his opinion, a perfect insult to them. It had been calculated that the whole of the corn thus to be admitted, would not suffice for more than the consumption of four or five days. But, what he objected to mostly was, not so much the extent of relief which would be afforded by this measure, as that it was offering corn to the manufacturers which they could not buy. It was therefore, that he considered this measure, instead of being one of relief to the manufacturers, as a direct insult to them. The value of corn was not determined solely by its price. If a man could earn 20
s.
974
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.,
s.
Sir John Brydges
said, that not having had an opportunity to deliver his sentiments upon this measure on Friday, he would, with the indulgence of the House, make a few observations, and he assured them he would redeem his promise; aware, as he was, that the subject had been much discussed, and sensible of his own inability to throw any new light upon the subject. He confessed he had come down to the House on Friday last in much embarrassment, feeling, with many other hon. members, that he would be called upon to give a vote, either against the intended proposition of his majesty's ministers (to support whom it was ever his desire), or against his own conviction; and which must have been the consequence had the first proposition been persevered in, which he could not otherwise contemplate than as an interference with the principle of the existing Corn-laws. But, happily, he was relieved from this dilemma, by a modification of the proposition, by which its sting was taken away, and it became, in his opinion, no longer objectionable. However, though modified as it now was, it could no longer be considered as any alteration of the present Corn-laws; yet, as it was so nearly allied to it, and as he had been taught to look for this revision and alteration, at no distant period, he would offer a few observations upon the subject. From an expectation, that had for some time existed, of a revision of the Corn-laws now in force, and from its intimate connection with the subject of free trade, which had been already adopted, to a considerable extent, by parliament, the question now before the House was of the greatest magnitude, and excited an unusual degree of atten-
975
976
Mr. H. Sumner
said, that he was of the same opinion that he at first expressed, that there were no sufficient grounds for
977
Mr. Stanley,
not having been in the House on a former night, when the subject was agitated, took that opportunity of expressing his intention to give to the measure proposed by his majesty's ministers his most hearty concurrence and support. He was also anxious to express his regret at seeing gentlemen con-
978
s.
s.
979
Colonel Wood
bore testimony to the merits of the speech delivered by the hon. member; but, whatever support he might give to the measure, it was on an understanding that it had no reference to any permanent or material alteration of the Corn-laws; being convinced that any such alteration would not tend to lessen but to aggravate the distresses of the country. He thought the proposition now before the House more objectionable than the original measure proposed by government. He conceived that the preferable plan would be, to grant to government the discretionary power of opening the ports upon an Order of Council, when the average price of corn had amounted to a certain specified rate. The rate of that import price might be settled when the bill was in the committee. He thought that a certain price
980
s.
d.
s.,
Mr. Secretary Peel
protested, that nothing on a former evening could have been further from his intention, than to fix either the amount of protecting duty or the maximum of price at which foreign corn should be imported. This he would say, that the prices fixed by the existing law, 80
s.
s.
s.
s.,
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, he should vote for bringing up the report, but without pledging himself to support the measure in its further stages. He was of opinion that it would be highly injurious to impress upon the manufacturing poor the erroneous idea that their distresses had arisen from the high price of corn. He thought, however, that it would be of benefit to the agricultural interest, to revise the Corn-laws, and to allow the importation of corn under a protecting duty; the fixing of that rate of duty would always be a subject of difficulty. He conceived that there was no ground to apprehend any deficiency in the home supply of corn; and he therefore thought that the measure before the House ought not to have been brought forward at a period like the present.
Mr. F. Lewis
declared, that both measures had his most cordial, hearty, and warm support. Deriving his income from land entirely, he made no pretensions to
981
s.
s.
982
Mr. Jones
said, he thought the admission of bonded corn into the market would produce great benefit to the distressed^ He should support the bringing up of the report; without, however, pledging himself to any subsequent support of the bill. If the House were to assent to the present measure, and allow corn to be imported at 12
s.,
Mr. J. Smith
was anxious to explain to the House the reasons which induced him to vote with his majesty's ministers upon the present occasion. He felt that, if ministers had neglected to provide some such measure as the present, they would have incurred a heavy and serious responsibility. He found upon inquiry, that corn had been progressively rising within a certain time. Assuming this to be the fact, he would ask the House, how it was possible that his majesty's ministers could think of allowing parliament to dissolve, without taking care to provide against the chance of a scarcity of corn before the next harvest, and whether gentlemen were prepared to view with indifference the consequence of such neglect? He felt that he was doing his duty in supporting this motion, without stopping to inquire whether the question ought to have been introduced at an earlier period, because he felt that, unless some such step was taken, a degree of distress might be brought about, that it was painful even to contemplate. An hon. member had stated, that there was no scarcity of corn in the country. If such were the case, he rejoiced at it; but who was to guarantee that there would not be a scarcity before the ensuing harvest? His majesty's ministers had, or ought to have, the best information upon this subject. If they had it not, they were guilty of the most culpable neglect. He hoped that they were possessed of it, and that it was of the most favourable nature; but if they had the slightest doubt upon their minds, they were
983
Mr. Baring
said, that if he could think with his hon. friend who had just sat down, that the proposed measure would produce any of the benefits which his hon. friend contemplated, he would support it. But he was of a different opinion, and was therefore obliged to take a different course. He could not consent to give to his majesty's ministers a power which would have the effect of shifting and rendering uncertain the price of corn all over the country. Distress might arise in one place this day, and in another on the next; and the object of this proposition was, to enable government, at its pleasure, to shift the price of corn, to meet those partial circumstances. This, he contended, was not only the most mischievous and fallacious proceeding that could be adopted, but he would say, that, if there were any measure more likely than another to create distress in the country, this shifting and changing the price of corn—this constant interference with the Corn-laws—was that measure. From the year 1815, when he first heard these questions discussed, he felt convinced, that the extent of protection was fixed at far too high a rate, and that the mode of applying the principle was open to every possible objection. That opinion he continued to hold; and therefore, in the few observations he was about to make, gentlemen would observe, that his opposition did not arise from any attachment which
984
985
986
s.,
s.,
s.
s.
s.,
s.
987
988
s.,
989
s.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.?
Mr. C. Wilson
supported the measure. He said, he did not wish to divide the two interests of the agriculturist and the manufacturer. On the contrary, he would rather unite and bind them together. After all that had been said on the question, this proposition was quite clear—that if the manufacturers were in a state of distress they must receive relief from some quarter. The present measure was intended to afford that relief, and he thought that ministers deserved great credit for bringing it forward.
Mr. Whitmore
said, he would not follow the hon. member for Taunton through the great question of the Corn-laws, but would repeat, in reference to it, that the sooner it was settled, the sooner one of the greatest evils of the country would be removed. He agreed that the plan proposed; namely, the delegating to government, without check as to control, and without limit as to duty, the power of admitting 500,000 quarters of wheat, under the peculiar circumstances of the present moment, and just preceding an expected dissolution, was likely to produce a serious effect on the agricultural interest. He did not suppose that ministers would abuse the power to be intrusted
990
Mr. Irving
said, he fully agreed with the hon. member who just sat down, that nothing could be more fatal, nothing more to be deprecated, than any measure which could be injurious to the great body of the agricultural population, or excite alarm among them. He was surprised, however, to hear this from an hon. gentleman, whose whole conduct, with respect to the Corn-laws, was calculated to excite the alarm he so much deprecated. What had been his conduct on that question? Did he not, late in the session, bring on this most important and delicate subject He gave notice of his motion early enough to have it fully discussed, but put it off, from time to time, until it was too late to hope for anything like a full inquiry. Thus, though the hon. member was fully aware of the intentions of ministers, and of the general opinion of the House; though warned of the inconveniences of premature discussion; he persevered in his motion. Not
991
s.
d.
d.
992
d.,
Mr. Huskisson
assured the hon. member for member, that nothing could give him greater satisfaction, than to see the question of the Corn-laws in his hands, if the hon. gentleman happened next session, to have a seat in the House. No doubt he would bring forward a measure calculated to conciliate the various interests of the country, and to effect the great object in view. If it were his good fortune, to occupy in the next session the post he now held, it would be his duty to propose some measure connected with this great question; and, although he should be happy to profit by the hon. members suggestions, he must be excused if he did not implicitly follow his advice. The hon. member for Taunton was more or less in the habit of observing upon the absence of members of the cabinet from their places in parliament; but, if he had been more assiduous in his own attendance, he would not have been so much in arrear in his information of what had recently passed in that House, as by his speech he appeared to be. In the first place, the hon. member did not seem to be aware of what had fallen from the hon.
993
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.
s.
994
995
996
Sir E. Knatchbull
said, he could not reconcile it to himself to give merely a silent vote on the present question. It was very unfair to rest the matter in issue on the eloquent appeal of the hon. member for Stockbridge,—an appeal directed much more to the feelings, than to the judgment of the House. When he was called upon to deliver his opinion upon a question of this kind, he could not suffer himself to be influenced by any partial feelings or considerations. In many of the observations that had been made by the right hon. President of the Board of Trade, he concurred; and more especially in the remark, that this was not a proper time for the consideration of the general question of the Corn-laws. But he was astonished that government had brought the subject under consideration at all at this time; because they must have been perfectly aware, that when the matter was
997
998
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he assured the hon. member for Kent, and the other honourable members who had spoken on this subject, that he had listened with the greatest attention to their exposition on this subject, and gave them full credit for the most sincere desire to discharge their duties fairly and conscientiously. But he must say, at the same time, that even those who had entered into the greatest length of discussion on this subject, had kept far wide of the practical question. That question was this: here was a law on the Statute-book for regulating the trade in corn, enacted under very peculiar circumstances, and such as, perhaps, justified the act; but a law of which the extreme provisions had never been suffered to come into operation. He was very far from giving any opinion on the question, whether that law could be brought at all into full operation; but this he broadly stated, because it was notoriously the fact, that the country was at present in a situation exactly the reverse of that in which it was placed at the time when that law was passed. And the fact was, that no man, however attached to the corn restrictions, had ventured to say, that the extreme provisions of that law could be brought into operation in the existing circumstances of the country, without producing a high degree of apprehension and alarm. No man had ventured to advance such a proposition. Why, then, if this were granted him—if he had this admission that this law, however good in itself, however applicable to certain circumstances, could not be applied in the present state of things, without producing the greatest alarm and apprehension—he then had every thing that was necessary to support his view of the subject; and it was clearly the duly of government to oppose the prejudices of those who objected to the proposed measure, although it was not necessary to combat their arguments, for no arguments had been adduced. There were two courses which might be taken—either to discuss and adopt a permanent measure, as had been recommended by the hon. member for Taunton and others, or to make some temporary alteration in the Corn-laws, suitable to the crisis, and the peculiar circumstances of the country at
999
s.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.,
s.
s.,
s.
s.,
s.,
1000
s.
1001
s.
s.,
1002
Colonel Wood,
in explanation, denied having agreed to make 65
s.
Mr. H. Sumner
also explained, and; some other members did the same, but
1003
Lord Milton
said, his opinion was, that the present measure was not that which was called for by the urgent necessity of the times. He hoped that ministers, before they carried it into effect, would consider whether there was not another, better adapted to attain the object they had in view. He would only throw out this hint at present, and he would rather they should not answer his question now.
The House divided: For bringing up the Report 185; Against it 58; Majority 127. The resolution was then reported: viz.,
"That it is expedient to empower his majesty, by any order or orders of his majesty in council, to permit, under certain regulations, and for a time to be limited, the entry, for home consumption, of an additional quantity of foreign corn, meal, or flour, subject to the duties which may be imposed by any act to be passed in this session of parliament." On the motion that it be read a second time,
Mr. Baring
observed, that he thought it would be right to set the present question at rest by a permanent decree as to what should be the law. It became the House to act with promptitude and decision, and finally to determine the matter. He believed, that as the question had now been in some degree mooted, and as it was declared that it should be decided next year, the delay would only serve to fortify the prejudices, if he might call them such, of the people, and to prevent that impartial discussion which every one ought to be anxious to obtain. He thought the experiment had better be made immediately. The plan of opening the ports, with a protecting duty, was itself but an experiment, and might ultimately come round to the necessity of doing that which he urged them to do now. Whenever the question was decided, there must be more or less of the nature of experiment in the course pursued. Under all the circumstances, he thought the House had better go into the committee at once. Some other members concurred with him in that opinion, and even the hon. member for Bramber objected to the state in which the question was now left. In his opinion, ministers put off the decision of the question without any reason, beyond the apprehension of encountering their friends in parliament. He concluded by
1004
Lord Milton
thought this as good a time as any for making an alteration, if it should be deemed necessary. He thought the present Corn-laws only fit for the fair-weather state of the country.
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose to remind the House, that they were now going to vote upon a proposition which, if affirmed, would pledge them to a complete revision of the Corn-laws. He had already stated his reasons for thinking this an inauspicious moment for such a measure; and, although regarded as the enemy of the landowners, he really was acting as their best friend in the course he now took.
The House divided: For the amendment 51; Against it 167; Majority 116. The resolution was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, May 9 1826.
LIBERTY OF THE PRESS IN INDIA—
Lord John Russell
rose, for the purpose of calling the attention of the House to a petition of considerable importance, affecting the government of India, and most seriously affecting the talents and fortune of the petitioner, Mr. Buckingham. The case had, on a former occasion, been brought before the House by his hon. friend, the member for Durham; and at that time, the answer given to it was, that it was then under the consideration of a court of law, and therefore it would be highly improper in that House to interfere. At the time when this answer was given, he himself considered it a very weak and unsatisfactory one; but since then, circumstances had occurred, which had totally done away with that objection, weak as it was. The ruin which the petitioner then apprehended, in consequence of the acts of which he complained, had since fallen upon him: but he would proceed, as briefly as he could, to detail the principal facts of the petitioner's very hard case. In the year 1814, Mr. Buckingham received a licence to proceed to Calcutta, to reside there. At that period, the marquis of Hastings, the governor-general, had abolished the censorship of the press, and had left the editors of newspapers free to act upon their own responsibility; at the same time prescribing certain rules to which they were to conform.
1005
l
l
l
1006
l
l
1007
Mr. Wynn
said, that this question had been brought forward on a former occasion by the hon. member for Durham, and at that period Mr. Buckingham had given notice of an action against Mr. Adam, the governor-general, by whom Mr. Buckingham had been sent away. Unfortunately, the death of Mr. Adam had since taken place; a circumstance which he considered one of the greatest losses the service in India had ever sustained. At the same time, he must express his complete conviction, amounting in fact almost to a certainty, that had that action proceeded, the result would have been most triumphant to Mr. Adam. It appeared to him, that it was rather unusual to move for a committee on such a subject as the noble lord had expressed his intention of doing, unless some previous notice had been given. The ordinary course was to give notice to the House of such an intention; and of this course the noble lord himself must see the propriety. He remembered no instance of a select committee having been moved for without previous notice. The whole question appeared to him to hinge on this consideration: Is the press in India to be as free as it is in this country? On this point he was ready to meet the noble lord at any time, and contend for its impossibility. The noble lord had adverted to the passages published by Mr. Buckingham, and had said, that although they might not be tolerated at Vienna or Madrid, they would pass freely at Pan's or London. In
1008
1009
1010
Mr. Scarlett
begged to remind the House, that the petitioner could not maintain, in our courts of law, an action against the Indian government for any injury which he had received from it in the exercise of its power, and that his only remedy therefore lay in the supreme authority of that House. He confessed he was very strongly struck by one of the statements in the petition. Banishment might be nothing in the opinion of some mem-
1011
Mr. Wynn
observed, that the licence of the Calcutta Journal had been withdrawn, and had never been granted to any other individual. The licence which had been granted to Dr. Mostyn, the individual referred to in the petition, and a friend of the petitioner, was a licence to print a paper to be entitled "The Scotchman in the East."
Mr. John Smith
found fault with the East India Company, because it had allowed its servants not only to deprive Mr. Buckingham of his property, but also to leave him incumbered with debts incurred in acquiring that property. Every attempt which Mr. Buckingham had made to obtain redress had been treated with disdain and contempt; and even when he desired to obtain from its compassion such a remuneration as would only secure bread to himself and to his large family, he was met with the declaration, that he had been deservedly punished, and had no claim of any description on the East-India Company. He would support any motion of which the object was inquiry into Mr. Buckingham's case; and he would do so in the hope that the House would see justice done to that unfortunate individual.
Mr. Astell
said, he had hoped that this question had been finally settled by the late decision at the East-India-house; but as it was again mooted, he must again repeat that Mr. Buckingham's punishment was only the result of his misconduct. So far was Mr. Buckingham from being an ill-used individual, that he even consi-
1012
Dr. Phillimore
said, that every gentleman who had heard the speech of his right hon. friend, must be convinced, that no ground was laid for the charges which Mr. Buckingham had brought against the Indian government. By the law as it now stood, no man could reside in the territory of the East-India Company without receiving a special licence to do so. It was equally the law, that the governor-general could revoke that licence, if he so thought fit. Now, what had been the conduct of Mr. Buckingham? He had established a newspaper in 1815, which began by attacking, first the character of private individuals, and next the measures of public men, and which ended by arraigning in most unmeasured terms, the transactions of the government in the Nizam's country, and of the army in the territory of the king of Oude. These attacks were regularly translated and circulated in the native languages of India. Now, in a country which we held solely by the influence of opinion, was it possible that we could retain our supremacy, if individuals were allowed to arraign the government unreservedly in newspapers? The noble lord who presented the petition had said, that lord Hastings had given a free press to India. Now, lord Hastings had done no such thing. His lordship had abolished the antecedent censorship, but had erected a tribunal, to which all newspapers were, after publication, to be referred for its approval. The notices which Mr. Buckingham had received, that any future in-fraction of the regulations of government would be punished by his dismissal, had been frequent. In 1821, this notice had been repeated in the most, unequivocal, manner. It had been said that, since his return, lord Hastings had declared that he had no intention of strictly enforcing
1013
Mr. Trant
said, that if the question were solely confined to the removal of Mr. Buckingham from India, perhaps he might be disposed to concur in the propriety of his removal. But looking at the whole of the conduct which had been adopted to-
1014
The House divided: Ayes 43. Noes 40. A committee was accordingly appointed.
SLAVE TRADING, AND THE STATE
Mr. Fowell Buxton
rose, and addressed the House to the following effect:—
1015
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
— What! encouraged by the government?
Mr. Fowell Buxton
. —I do not say that it was carried on by members of the government—I had intended to avoid any personal allusion—but, as I am called upon, I do say, that it was carried on to such an extent, and in a manner so open, as to reflect, in the strongest manner, on the highest authorities in the island. Another military officer, a general, states, that from the vessels that were hovering over the coast of Bourbon, then in our possession, in the latter part of the year 1813, between nine and ten thousand new slaves were landed—that "the landings of new Africans were frequent, but by no means clandestine." Another officer, writing in 1819, says, that the whole population of the Mauritius—meaning the whites—were engaged in the violation of the Slave-trade Abolition laws; and that, in despite of them, 700 new slaves had been introduced in the preceding month. Another officer, a colonel in the army, writing in 1821, says, that at least 30,000 new slaves had been landed at the Mauritius, between 1810 and 1817. A naval officer, an admiral, gives governor Farquhar warning, in 1812, that the Slave-trade shall not be carried on, notwithstanding the encouragement it received. A captain in the navy, speaking of the
1016
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1018
1019
1020
1021
1022
1023
1024
1025
s
1026
s
A List of the number of captured Negroes, on account of whom Bounties have been paid out of his Majesty's Treasury, to the 31st of March, 1822, distinguishing the number for each Colony.
Antigua
Barbadoes
Berbice
Bermuda
Demerara
Dominica
24
Grenada
3
Jamaica
40
Montserrat
Nevis
St. Christopher
St. Lucia
7
St. Vincent
Tobago
Trinidad
8
Virgin Islands
Total for all the British West-India Islands
82
Bahama Islands
115†
Cape of Good Hope
8‡
Total for all British Colonies exclusive of Mauritius
205
For Mauritius alone up to the same date
2,452
*
†The greatest part of these Negroes were landed from an insurgent privateer. Vide Bounty Paper made up at the Treasury, 30th of March, 1822.
‡Two of these are said to be returned servants from Scotland.
1027
1028
l
l
1029
1030
1031
1032
1033
1034
1035
1036
1037
Sir H. Farquhar
declared, that, when he came down to the House that evening, he was totally in the dark as to the tendency of the hon. member's motion; the scope which he meant to take, or the extent of the facts which he meant to go upon. He always understood, that it was usual to give any hon. member whose conduct was attacked, at least a private notice of what he meant to do; but no such notice had he received. He hoped, therefore, that the House would extend their indulgence to him, while he entered into an explanation of what had been alleged against him. The hon. member, in bringing forward his motion, had art-
1038
1039
1040
1041
1042
1043
1044
1045
1046
1047
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that the House, he was sure, would sympathize with the hon. baronet in what had fallen from him. He did not mean to say that the hon. gentleman ought not, from any personal feeling towards any hon. member, to come forward and discharge his duty; yet, if he understood the hon. gentleman correctly, he had imputed indirect criminality to the hon. baronet. That being the case, he could not help expressing his regret that the papers upon the table of that House respecting the Mauritius had not been printed, and in the hands of members previous to this discussion. From the letters alluded to by the hon. gentleman, it certainly did appear, that the late governor of the Mauritius was charged with having winked at the traffic in slaves. Such a charge appeared to him extraordinary, when he considered that that hon. baronet had taken measures the most likely to put an end to that traffic; and he trusted the House would suspend their judgment until they should be in possession of more information. He could not reconcile the inconsistency, that a governor, who had taken such measures, should be guilty of culpable indifference, amounting to the sanction of the Slave-trade in the island of which he was governor. The House must be aware that the period of time at which the acts imputed were done, made all the difference in this case; and in order to arrive at a just decision, the House must be in possession of more specific information than they had at present. Did the hon. gentleman mean to say that the Slave-trade in the Mauritius had gone on up to the present period?
Mr. F. Buxton.
—I mean to say, that it had gone on, up to the year 1824.
Mr. Wilmot Norton,
in continuation, denied that it had been carried on, to any extent, since 1811. But, at all events,
1048
Mr. F. Buxton
explained, that it was his intention to bring the whole subject before the committee. The Slave-trade had existed before 1810, and had been
1049
Mr. W. Horton
replied, that the papers already laid before the House, established the fact of the existence of the Slave-trade up to 1818, and he would therefore submit to the House, whether is would not be a waste of time to enter upon such an extensive injury, when no inquiry was necessary. The point which it was desirable to inquire into was, whether the Slave-trade existed now, and to what extent.
Mr. F. Buxton
replied, that the Slave-trade was not put down, and he was prepared to show that it was not. He was surprised to see the slight notice taken by his hon. friend of the enormities he had brought under the notice of the House. Was it a waste of the time of the House to inquire whether these enormities existed? The Slave-trade was still carried on; and was it not the duty of the House to put a stop to it? He wished the House to see, by evidence, to what extent thes Slave-trade still existed, and he should persist in his motion.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that if the motion were intended to convey matter of complaint against any individual, he should object to it in the strongest manner. He should certainly object to the hon. member's calling for a vote of that description, founded upon the contents of papers which the majority of the House had not yet had the opportunity of perusing. He should also have objected, upon a statement so vague and general, to go into an examination pointed against individual character. But, upon the ground of its being a question of national honour, in which light he had understood the hon. member to present it, and in which he did not differ from him upon the alleged imputation, that the Slave-trade carried on in the Mauritius was connived at, if not openly sanctioned by the governor, he was willing to agree to the motion. This charge had, in fact, often been thrown in their teeth, whilst they were endeavouring to infuse into foreign powers some of that feeling with which the people of this country were inspired, with reference to this detestable traffic. He understood the hon. gentleman to disclaim any imputation upon government, in the statement he had made; but he had declared, that the facts of the case established an imputation upon the
1050
Mr. Brougham
declared his concurrence in the view taken by the right hon. Secretary upon this question. He thought that the charges of his hon. friend did reflect on the country, on the government, and on the island in general. After the declaration of his hon. friend, that he would produce proofs of the truth of the statement he had made, he thought they had no option, but must proceed at once to institute the inquiry. He thought that, independent of the private information possessed by the hon. gentlemen opposite, which the House could not know, enough might be seen on the face of the returns, and the papers they were in possession of, to justify the House in going into an inquiry. A trade had been carried on, of which there had been no example in any other colony belonging to the Crown. After this island had been eleven years in our possession, the disproportion of the sexes amongst the slaves was a sufficient ground of alarm, and justified inquiry. It was nearly in the proportion of two to one, compared with the number at the conquest. In 1822, the numbers were, forty-one thousand males, and twenty-two thousand females. Then there had been a great increase of production in that island; the number of slaves captured, and on which a bounty had been allowed, was ten times greater in that island than in all the West-India islands put together. He said this to justify his opinion, that the West-India colonies were, in this respect, pure in comparison with this island. In the former, it would appear that the Slave-trade had been satisfactorily extirpated. He would vote simply on the facts before the House, and on the credit of the evidence which his hon. friend had promised to produce.
Sir R. Farquhar
referred to the testimony of commodore Owen for the fact, that all along the West coast of Africa, vessels were employed in carrying on the Slave-trade. They usually went under the French flag, and carried their slaves
1051
The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed.
ARREST FOR DEBT.
Mr. R. Martin
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill "to authorize sheriffs' and other officers to abstain from arresting, or to discharge persons arrested by them, who may be in such a state of health that they cannot be removed to gaol without danger to their lives." The hon. member, amidst loud and frequent cries of "question," went on for a short time to state the grounds on which his motion rested, but so frequent were the interruptions, that not more than one or two connected sentences reached the gallery. We understood the hon. member to say, that nothing could be more inconsistent with justice and humanity than to drag an unfortunate debtor to prison in a state of health in which the removal risked his life.—No discussion took place on the hon. member's motion, which was immediately negatived without a division.
WAREHOUSED CORN BILL.
Mr. Huskisson
Mr. Sumner
said, that much as he objected to the measure, his objection was still stronger to the introduction of the subject, at an hour which would preclude any discussion; he would therefore move as an amendment, "That the House do now adjourn."
Lord Milton
said, he would make an appeal to the House to go forward with the measure then before it. As the House had already sanctioned the principle of the first question, it would be desirable that the bill founded upon it should proceed; but as to expecting unanimity with respect to it, it would be quite unreasonable. He was anxious to take the present opportunity of asking the right hon. Secretary, whether the two bills now before the House included the whole of the measures intended by government for the relief of the distressed districts? It was well known that a subscription for the relief of the distressed manufacturers had been sanctioned by his majesty's ministers, thus obviously admitting that relief of a pecuniary nature was necessary. The question which he wished to ask them was, whether they were in-
1052
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that he could not better answer the question of the noble lord, than by informing him, that he had, within a few minutes, communicated with a gentleman, who had a notice of motion upon the subject for tomorrow, requesting him to postpone his motion for a few days; and when that motion was brought forward he would give the noble lord the answer he desired.
Mr. Sumner
again pressed the motion of adjournment.
Mr. Canning
said, that as it appeared to be the general wish of the House that the measure should proceed, and as he felt convinced that it was one which would be greatly for the advantage of the landed interest itself, he was determined to press the second reading that night. But with respect to the second bill (that for the importation of corn), as it was one which would be likely to lead to lengthened discussion, he would not bring it forward that night, but would defer it to afford a more convenient opportunity for going into that discussion.
Sir E. Knatchbull
said, that if he understood the right hon. gentleman to pledge himself not to bring forward the second bill that night, he would consent to the present, and he hoped his hon. friend would be induced not to press his amendment. He was the more inclined to throw out this suggestion, as he found that the opinions of the great majority seemed to be in favour of going on with the first question. He therefore thought it better to let it proceed, and wait for the discussion of the second measure.
Sir J. Sebright
concurred with the hon. member who had just sat down. It would, he thought, be advisable to allow the first bill to proceed, and he hoped the hon. member would not press his opposition.
Sir T. Lethbridge
said, he hoped his hon. friend would listen to the wish of the House regarding the present proposition, and would see that he could not serve the feeling, which all in that House were anxious to promote, by persisting in his motion.
1053
Mr. H. Sumner
observed, that all he could say to the hon. member for Somerset was, that those who thought the present measure was one of no importance to the landed interest might consent to it; but, for himself, he had always been of opinion, that the measure was not only unnecessary, but calculated to injure the interests of the landed proprietors. Having those sentiments, he must act for himself; and if he stood alone, he would take the sense of the House upon it.
Mr. Tremayne
concurred with the hon. member who spoke last, in thinking the measure uncalled for. There was nothing in the state of the country since the 18th of April which could render it necessary. After the full discussion, and the solemn decision to which the House had then come, he thought no alteration ought to be made in the Corn-laws. He would therefore support the amendment.
The House then divided:—For the original motion 174; For the amendment 2. The bill was then read a second time.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, May 11 1826.
CORN LAWS.
The order of the day having been moved,
The Earl of Malmesbury
said, that in rising to propose the motion of which he had a few days since given notice, he assured their lordships that he felt considerable pain and embarrassment—pain, because it was his lot to differ upon the subject from many noble lords whose public opinions were generally in unison with his own, and whom in private he viewed with every sentiment of regard and esteem—and embarrassment, because, when he viewed the circumstances of the country in connexion with this great question, and the magnitude of the interests it involved, he had deeply to lament that some one of their lordships, of greater ability and greater experience, had not undertaken the task. The only excuse that he had to urge for what in him might appear presumption, was the kind indulgence with which their lordships had heard him on former occasions, when this subject was discussed. All he had to hope then, was, that if this cause, which he felt to be one of justice, should fail in his hands, that failure might not be attributed to its want of merit, but to the insufficiency of the individual who brought it forward. Before he entered fully into
1054
s.
1055
1056
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
1057
1058
s.
1059
1060
1061
Earl Bathurst
said, that it had been the opinion of his majesty's ministers, an opinion which they had expressed in that House, and in which they were justified by circumstances, and supported by the opinions of others, that the present was not the fit time to discuss the operation of the Corn-laws. The noble earl who had just resumed his scat seemed to dif-
1062
s.,
s.,
s.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
1063
s.
1064
1065
The Marquis of Salisbury
said, that he had listened with much attention to the arguments of the noble lord who had last
1066
1067
The Earl of Limerick
said, he felt great difficulty in giving the vote which a sense of duty would compel him to deliver. He had hitherto been a zealous supporter of the administration. Through good report, and through bad report, he had adhered to them; but what he owed to this country, and to the country from which he came, bound him to resist a measure fraught with injury to both, and especially to the latter. It had been said, that there was not time for inquiry. He would ask whose fault was that? It was now but
1068
s.
d.
1069
The Earl of Harewood
said, he considered that the propositions of ministers, respecting the introduction of foreign corn, if carried into effect, would not be prejudicial to the interests of the agriculturists, and would be beneficial to the community. Having said this, he was not prepared to deny, that he had some apprehensions that the bringing forward the question of the Corn-laws at the close of the session would be attended with great inconvenience. He was perfectly satisfied that his majesty's ministers had taken that course which they believed best calculated to obtain the end they had in view; namely, the good of the community. He was sorry that the proposition had been submitted to the House, as any question connected with the Corn-laws, short of a full discussion—which ought not, in his opinion, as he had before said, to be now entered upon—was likely to produce more harm than good. The principle of the two measures proposed by government, he really considered to be the same, and could not conceive how any distinction could be drawn between them. There had gone forth an opinion abroad, which he wished to correct, that the sufferings of the people arose in consequence of a boon given to the agriculturists. Now, he begged to ask what boon they had received? And this boon, it was conceived, ought to be given up; but there was none existing. He did not enter into the subject invidiously. He would contend, that the interest of the agriculturist and the manufacturer was the same, and he should belie his sentiments were he not to state it. In considering this question, it was necessary to examine closely into the real circumstances and condition of the different classes of the community; and in doing so, whatever might be the apparent prosperity, he could not help feeling, that, although large quantities of manufactures were going out of the country, yet the rates at which those commodities were manufactured were quite inadequate to the maintenance of a great portion of those who looked to that source for the means of their subsistence. If any measure could be devised for the relief of the manufacturing community, which would not be at the same time productive of injury to the first and most important interest of the country; namely, the agricultural interests, it would be the duty of parliament to embrace it with
1070
The Earl of Roseberry
said, that in the outset of the observations he intended to make, he was anxious to state that he was not, by any means, enamoured of the Corn-laws, but still adhered to the opinion he had expressed on presenting a petition in the last session; namely, that they ought to be revised, and that that revision could have been most advantageously made in the course of that year. He also agreed, that there were circumstances connected with the present session, which rendered it advisable not to enter into the discussion. He therefore had coincided, and still coincided, in the sentiments avowed by ministers in both Houses, although within a few days they had abandoned the very principle they were the first to establish. He did not wish to disparage the opinions of those who considered the existing Corn-laws a faultless system; but, that he might not be deemed a bigotted admirer of it, it was necessary for him to make a few remarks. Of the two propositions of government, he had listened to one, at least with feelings of astonishment and dismay; he alluded particularly to that which gave a discretionary power to admit foreign corn after the prorogation of parliament. He had felt astonishment, not only because the change recommended was not slight and trivial, but because it was in direct opposition to the declarations of the advisers of the Crown, that they would never propose an alteration of the Corn-laws to parliament without an antecedent inquiry. — [Lord Liverpool, across the table, intimated his dissent]. He begged to apologise, if he was mistaken; but he had certainly so understood the noble earl.
1071
s.
1072
s.
1073
The Earl of Aberdeen
said, he was disposed, upon all occasions, to give real and effectual protection to the agricultural interests. He would almost view it with especial favour; for, notwithstanding the sneers and jests which were cast upon it, both in and out of parliament, he would assert that upon it was founded the constitutional government of this country. He had yet to learn why it was now to be viewed with less partiality; and why the valuable and industrious yeomanry and peasantry of England were to be disregarded? Hence he would not assist in the progress of any measure calculated to injure them, and agreed with his noble relative on the cross-bench, that no injury
1074
s.
s.
1075
1076
The Earl of Roseberry
explained. He meant to state, that the distresses of the manufacturing districts arose out of a total deficiency of means to purchase food.
Lord Ellenborough
said, he thought the arguments of the noble earl who had just addressed their lordships somewhat singular. The noble earl called upon them to make a concession to prejudice; and he would be ready to yield him the concession he demanded, if the noble earl could only show him one instance in which concession had had the effect of weakening, or had not had the effect of strengthening, prejudice. But, what was the course by which the noble earl arrived at that recommendation? He, first of all, supposed a case of necessity which did not, in fact, exist. Then he demanded a concession to prejudice, which, he admitted, would carry no relief with it; and upon such grounds required, that their lordships should grant a dispensing power to government, which upon a subject connected with the price of food, ought to be intrusted to no man. When a motion was opposed, it was usual for the opposer to endeavour to shew that nobody could accede to it; but the course taken by the noble earl was widely different, for he struggled to prove, that it was impossible for any man to found an objection to the motion. Another complaint was, that the terms of the motion were ambiguous; but to him it seemed that the terms were most simple and intelligible. The meaning of it was merely this—that, four years ago, after patient inquiry, a law had been passed regarding the importation of grain; that the House was now required to alter that law without inquiry; and that it was fit that a previous investigation should be instituted. With whom, he would ask, did the existing Corn-law originate? With the noble earl opposite and his colleagues, and if the noble earl was, as he professed, unable to explain that law, who was com-
1077
1078
The Earl of Westmoreland
opposed the motion. He defended ministers from the charge of inconsistency brought against them upon this question. The indisposition to alter the Corn-laws, or in any way meddle with them, had attached solely to the circumstances of the country at the time in which that opinion had
1079
s.,
s.
s.
s.
s.
1080
Earl Grosvenor,
in giving his vote for the motion of the noble earl, said, he thought it necessary to state, that although he had acquiesced in the measure for letting out the bonded corn, he did not think himself bound to acquiesce in the second measure, for allowing the importation of five-hundred thousand quarters of foreign grain. He begged to call the attention of their lordships, and particularly such of their lordships as were in the habit of supporting the measures of ministers, to the vacillation of government upon this and other questions. The measures proposed by his majesty's government were justified by the distress which existed in the country. Now, he asked their lordships were they not aware of the existence of that distress long before it manifested itself in acts amounting almost to insurrection? His
1081
1082
Lord Falmouth
said, he regretted that the motion had been made at the present moment, because he thought that, if acceded to, it would lead to further inquiry than was at present desirable. He felt himself bound to oppose it, because he thought it a much lesser evil to grant the power asked for by ministers, even if he anticipated that they would exercise it in a way different from that in which he believed it would be exercised, than to accede to the motion of the noble lord, and go into an inquiry, which must necessarily have the effect of increasing the existing ferment.
The Earl of Darnley
said, that if ministers had been actuated by that degree of foresight and forethought which was necessary to conduct the affairs of a great empire, they would not stand in their present predicament. If, two or three weeks ago, when they might have foreseen the existing state of things, and when the noble earl opposite told the House, that he had no intention to meddle directly or indirectly with the Corn-laws this session
1083
Lord King,
with reference to the mis-
1084
1085
The Earl of Carnarvon
said, he considered the whole policy of ministers upon the present question to have been vacillating, ambiguous, and unintelligible. It was but a few days since they had declared distinctly, that they did not propose to go into the subject of the Corn-laws during the present session; and he must deny that any change had taken place in the agricultural prospects of the country, which justified a departure from that intention. As for the "possibility" of failing crops, to which they adverted, when was it that such possibility would not be capable of being made an argument? The true secret of the change in the opinions of ministers—and they might as well speak openly and say so—
1086
Lord Dudley and Ward
said, that if he were governed by the dislike which he felt to the Corn-laws, he should certainly oppose the measure brought forward by ministers; because he was quite sure that it was only by the aid of occasional alterations, that those laws could possibly continue to exist. It would be well for noble lords, however, to consider in what condition government would be left by a refusal of the power which it now demanded. It would be a very different state of things, the not having provided such a power, and the having asked for it and been refused it. Suppose the most serious scarcity, and consequent distress, to arise in the country. All that ministers could say would be, that parlia-
1087
The Earl of Mansfield
said, that the rejection of his noble friend's motion would propagate that delusion which good sense must disclaim. It had been said, that some persons objected to the first proposition of ministers, while others only objected to the second. For his part, he had no scruple in saying that he objected to both. There ought to be no alteration in the principle of the law, without a previous inquiry, and it should be proved that those measures were either not an innovation, or that they were justified by necessity; because the British grower was protected by the law until there was scarcity at home. With reference to the declaration made by ministers of their intention to alter the law, he would ask, did the price of corn cause the distress? Numerous other causes were assigned; amongst them were over-trading and excessive specula-
1088
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that he felt naturally anxious to seize the opportunity of offering to the House his opinion on this question, and he could not take a better opportunity, nor one more agreeable to himself, than immediately after his noble friend who had last spoken. If his noble friend meant to say, that he (lord Liverpool) thought that the Corn-bill, passed in the year 1815, was not applicable to the present times, he acknowledged that his noble friend was perfectly right. If his noble friend said, that he thought that the Corn-bill of 1822 was not applicable to the present year, and that it ought to be altered, he was right in that also. That was the very nature of such a question as this. It must be always variable; and their lordships should adapt the system to the circumstances of the times. In the year 1815 their lordships adapted the Corn-laws to the circumstances of the times, by fixing the average price of wheat
1089
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1090
1091
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1092
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1093
s.
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s.
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s.
s.,
1094
1095
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he rose at that lute hour briefly to offer his opinion upon the motion now under their lordships' consideration. If ever inquiry into any question were called for, never did an occasion arise on which it was more incumbent on their lordships to institute one, in reference to all the interests now under their deliberation, than on the system of the Corn-laws; and he had no difficulty in stating it as the settled conviction of his mind, that at no distant period the whole system must be brought under a review of parliament; and it was because the alteration suggested by the noble earl opposite was a temporary alteration, not preceded by inquiry, that he now objected to it. He looked forward to a permanent alteration, preceded by inquiry, which alone could enable their lordships to judge of the expediency of the change, and the expediency of the system to be substituted for the one the defects of which they sought to remove. Let their lordships look at the effect that would be produced by the proposed temporary alteration, not sanctioned by inquiry, not only upon the agricultural, but on all the other interests. It was not founded upon any special emergency —not upon the probability of a famine, because if there were such a probability, the noble earl would not have failed to allege it. One of two things must therefore have been proposed, and the noble earl could not escape from the dilemma—either it was intended to make the alteration, which was nominally temporary, permanent, without affording the opportunity of seeing the grounds which rendered it necessary —or there existed apprehensions upon grounds not stated, and he therefore presumed there were none, of a scarcity— an evil which, if it did arise, would be more effectually met by government exercising a sound discretion on the expediency or otherwise of opening the ports, than as such a measure of legislation as this, legislation in the dark, which was always attended with mischievous effects, but most so when it affected the subsistence of the people. It seemed to him, that all the arguments which had been adduced by the noble earl in favour of having such a power lodged with government, would
1096
1097
1098
The House divided on lord Bathurst's amendment: — Contents 96. Proxies 70–,166. Not-contents 42. Proxies 18–67—Majority 99.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 11 1826.
PETITION OF COLONEL BRADLEY, COMPLAINING OF THE CONDUCT OF COLONEL
Mr. Hume
said, he had been
1099
1100
1101
1102
1103
Mr. Butterworth
defended the character of colonel Arthur, than whom no man in the service bore a higher character. As to the dispute between him and the petitioner, he was enabled to assure the House that colonel Arthur had been regularly continued in his command, and that it was in his own defence that he arrested colonel Bradley, whose conduct in assuming the command had well nigh led to an insurrection in the colony. Colonel Bradley had had a verdict of 100
l.
The Attorney-General
said, he was desirous to make a few remarks upon the petition which had been just presented, containing charges the most insupportable
1104
1105
1106
Colonel Davies
said, that the reply of the Attorney-general consisted rather of an attack on colonel Bradley, than of an exculpation of those who were affected by the charges contained in the petition. Although colonel Bradley might have mixed up with his case circumstances which had been as well omitted, yet that was not the main point of the case. He had no doubt colonel Bradley was in error, in supposing that sir H. Torrens, and sir H. Taylor would decend to the acts imputed to them; but if colonel Arthur was actually in possession of the commission, as he stated, for what possible object could he conceal it? Why allow colonel Bradley to resort to measures which might have led to insurrection in the colony, when he had a commission in his pocket, which, if colonel Bradley had common sense, must have immediately satisfied him? Colonel Bradley applied personally, and wrote officially, to colonel Arthur, calling upon him to state his right to retain the command, but no authority was produced, and he therefore thought colonel Bradley had reason to complain of extreme hardship. With respect to the power of dismal from the army without court martial, that was a question on which his opinions were already known, and he should not, therefore go into it: but if it were a power to be exercised at all, it was one so fearful and extensive, that it ought to be under the control of the utmost caution. Here was an individual who had long and faithfully served his country, and was dismissed without an opportunity of having the charges investigated. It was one of the complaints of colonel Bradley, that up to this hour he had never seen the charges which had been preferred against him. Another of his difficulties was, that government had undertaken the defence of colonel Arthur; and by appointing him to a foreign station, had relieved him from the payment of costs and damages. He therefore hoped, that the Attorney-general would not object to the allowing the petition to be printed, lest, thereby, the injustice and oppression which it imputed might go unredressed.
Lord Palmerston
said, that if the pe-
1107
1108
1109
Mr. Brougham
said, that the circumstances which had been adverted to by his hon. and learned friend opposite, namely, that he had been professionally engaged in the cause, induced him to come forward to avoid any unjust inferences being drawn from his silence. He had always considered it expedient that professional men should abstain from interfering in that House on questions in which they had been professionally engaged; and the reasons for such a course were too obvious to require explanation. These remarks would not apply to his hon. and learned friend opposite, who stood in the capacity of a public officer, and as such was bound to conduct proceedings of this nature. As the court had decided in a particular manner, and as that decision was final, he was not at liberty to comment upon it; but he had always understood, from the very beginning of this cause, that the highest imputation against colonel Bradley was an error of judgment. With respect to the charges preferred by the petitioner against certain honourable persons, he would fain hope the House would pause before they adopted, as a principle, that no charge was to be printed amongst their votes which happened to reflect upon high individuals. He must say here, that with respect to the charges preferred against these honourable persons, he knew nothing at all about them; but having read the petition, he must differ with his hon. and learned friend in supposing that there was any thing in it personally offensive to the gentleman alluded to. All the petition did was to accuse some person of having forged a certain commission; colonel Arthur not having produced that commission when he was repeatedly called upon to do so. He could not recognize the principle, that the House had a right to refuse a petition, because it contained charges against individuals, how high so ever their rank or station. If the petition, then, ought to be received, the question of printing followed the same rule. It was a matter of course, that the votes should be printed for the use of the members; and, as to publicity, the rule was well known, that a person who published any statement contained in a petition was liable to punishment, as in the case of libel.
Mr. Secretary Peel
contended, that the
1110
The petition was then brought up.
Mr. Hume
entered into a detail of the occurrences mentioned in the petition, and contended, that there was one plain and obvious course for colonel Arthur to have pursued, namely, to produce the commission, if he really possessed it: that would have prevented all the evils which followed, and which were the more dangerous, and the more to have been avoided, when they knew that the colony was almost in a state of insurrection. All complaints were charges of one kind or other, and involved more or less the character of those who were the subject of them. He knew not, indeed, how justice could be done without them; but, as the right hon. gentleman seemed to have so great an objection to those passages which affected the conduct of sir H. Torrens, he would, although he wished to move that it be printed, in the hope that some member might feel it right to take measures for having it referred to a committee, now consent to withdraw it altogether.
The petition was accordingly withdrawn.
1111
MR. BUCKINGHAM—LIBERTY OF THE PRESS
Lord John Russell
Mr. Wynn
said, that he might, with great propriety, move that the order which the House had made on a former evening On this subject should now be rescinded; and the ground upon which he should be justified, in doing so was, that there had been no notice of the motion which the noble lord had carried. He had, at first, resolved to do so, but he had since abandoned his intention; and he would tell the House why: it was, because the case was one in which an individual complained of having suffered great hardship. If it had been of a different description he should certainly have acted upon his original resolution. The noble lord communicated to him, and to another gentleman on his side of the House, his intention of presenting a petition; but he had given no intimation whatever that he purposed to follow it up by a motion; and certainly he could not have imagined the noble lord intended to make such a motion as that which had been proposed. Knowing, as he did, the noble lord's usual courtesy in all matters which he brought before the House, he should not have believed it if he had been told that any such proceeding would have been adopted by him. He did not now rise to oppose the motion; but as the noble lord, in forming a committee of sixteen, had taken only five members from the ministerial side of the House, the other eleven being selected from the opposite benches, he should object to the addition of any more names to the committee.
Colonel Davies
said, he was sure his noble friend had no intention of taking the House by surprise. He had not requested him to attend, nor, as he believed, many other gentlemen who were usually in the habit of acting with him.
Lord Milton
said, he supposed the reason of the right hon. gentleman's complaint was, that no Treasury notes had been issued on the occasion.
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that so far from there having been any intention on the part of his noble friend to take the House by surprise, he had himself requested his noble friend to put off the motion. He bad no reason for doing so, but that he
1112
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, his right hon. friend had been misunderstood. Undoubtedly, the rules of the House were not made for the convenience of one side or the other; and he believed that, if the course now complained of were adopted on that side of the House, gentlemen opposite would complain of it bitterly, and with great justice. He must confess he was surprised that the noble lord should have made this motion without notice. He was himself on his way to the House on the evening on which it had been made, but hearing that there was nothing before the House but petitions, he was ashamed to say he turned back.
Mr. Calcraft
protested he had neither had, nor heard of, any such notice as that about which the right hon. gentleman had spoken; and yet he had voted on the former evening with his noble friend; and did not regret that he had done so. As to the objections that had been taken to the noble lord's mode of proceeding in. this case, the whole of the matter was, that the right hon. gentleman was very sore. He did not like to be beaten; and defeat was yet too new a visitation for him to be callous to it. For his own part, he could not agree with those who thought that a formal notice ought always to be
1113
Mr. Brougham
was inclined to think that the motion of his noble friend, on a former evening, had been carried against ministers, not quite so much by surprise as some hon. members seemed to imagine. The debate on that occasion was undoubtedly not a very short one. There had been a great deal of discussion upon it. If he recollected rightly, an hon. and learned friend, from Doctors' Commons (Dr. Phillimore) addressed the House at considerable length, and no doubt in a manner very profitable to those whom he addressed; but the length of that address was certainly not the less profitable to the division which subsequently took place. For during his learned friend's exercitation, a great many members came down, who, not being scared like the Chancellor of the Exchequer at hearing that the debate was only about a petition, did not turn back, but took their places in time to vote with his majesty's ministers. And, by a singular coincidence it happened, that during precisely the same period, and while his learned friend was stating his view of the question, a great many gentlemen on his (Mr. B.'s) side of the House left it. The vote was not, therefore, altogether so mere a matter of accident as it had been described to be. The fact was, that a very general impression, in the case of Mr. Buckingham, had gone abroad—and a very strong one too— that, somehow or other, by the conduct of the East India Company, that gentle-man had been very hardly used.
Dr. Phillimore
said, he thought he had a right to complain that the noble lord had not given any notice that he intended to move for a select committee. He had certainly stated, that he would bring the petition under the consideration of the House, but he did not even hint that he would follow up that proceeding with a
1114
Mr. Brougham
said, that if the motion in question had been introduced for the purpose of levelling an attack against the lamented individual whose name had been mentioned, or if he thought that by possibility it could lead to such an attack, he would have been the last man to have given it his support.
Dr. Phillimore
said, he undoubtedly never thought that the noble lord or his learned friend would make themselves parties to such an attack, but he knew that many persons, in bringing forward this question, had mixed up the character of Mr. Adam with it, in a most unjustifiable manner.
Lord J. Russell
defended the course he had taken on a former evening. The gentlemen around him had no more notice of what he meant to do than the gentleman opposite had. And when he stated that he would introduce the petition, he did not give notice of what he would afterwards do, because he wished to leave it open to himself to pursue that course which might, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, appear to be necessary. He considered the course which he had adopted to be as regular as any other that could be pointed out. He conceived that he, or any other member, was competent to bring forward the motion, without giving notice
1115
Mr. Hume
said, that Mr. Adam's character or conduct had nothing to do with this petition. Mr. Buckingham complained of the destruction of his property, which had taken place after Mr. Adam had left the government, and when he was absent for the benefit of his health. The sending Mr. Buckingham from India by Mr. Adam, and the subsequent destruction of his property under the government of lord Amherst, were two very distinct questions.
Mr. Astell
said, that the honorable gentleman wished to persuade the House, that the case of Mr. Buckingham, as it had been brought before them, applied only to the destruction of his property subsequently to his leaving India;
1116
The Solicitor General
observed, that Mr. Buckingham having appealed to the privy council, and that body having decided against his appeal, he thought it a most unusual course to bring the subject before parliament. In common fairness, a notice of the noble lord's intention to move for a select committee ought to have been given; because he believed many individuals would have voted against the motion, had they been aware that it was a matter between Mr. Buckingham and the East India Company on which the privy council had adjudicated.
Lord Milton
observed, that the parties now proposed were either in office, or connected with the East India Company; whereas, when the committee were appointed the other night, he believed the names were taken alternately from both sides of the House.
Lord J. Russell
said, that there were on the committee which was appointed on Tuesday evening, five persons, who were either commissioners of the Board of Control, or East India directors,—individuals who were certain to vote against Mr. Buckingham's claim. Of the other members of the committee, a considerable
1117
Mr. Peel
was of opinion, that Mr. Speaker Williams would rather be ashamed of the manner in which the committee was selected on Tuesday last, than of the addition which it was now proposed to make to it. A noble lord had stated, that the members of the committee had been taken alternately from both sides of the House. Now, out of sixteen names, ten had been taken from the opposite side of the House; and one of the remaining six had made a speech in favour of Mr. Buckingham. Two names of gentlemen who were favourable, he believed, to this claim, had since been added to the list; so that there was a balance of 13 against 5.
Mr. Hume
said, the right hon. gentleman should allow others to act on the principle which he and his friends had adopted in forming the committee, in the early part of the session, on the Scotch and Irish currency. On that occasion, a committee of twenty-one persons had been appointed, three only of whom could speak the sentiments of the people of Scotland with respect to the currency question; while the other members of the committee were all ready to destroy the present circulation of Scotland. There was the chancellor of the Exchequer decidedly in favour of an alteration. Mr. Peel also in favour of it.
Mr. Peel.
—I never said any thing about it.
Mr. Hume.
—I beg to state my recollection of the matter; having, on the very day, noted the circumstance, as proving this to be the most partial list that was ever drawn up.
Mr. Peel.
—I did not open my lips on the subject.
Mr. Hume
proceeded to contend, that the list of the committee appointed to consider Mr. Buckingham's petition was not a partial one. The list was put into the noble lord's hand partly written, and the success of his motion was as little
1118
Mr. Peel
said, that undoubtedly he had a strong opinion on the subject of Scotch currency. He thought it was right to extend to Scotland the system which prevailed in this country. But, when the motion for a committee was made by his right hon. friend, he did not say a word on the subject; so, it was impossible that the hon. member could have taken any note on the subject. When the hon. member said there were but three members connected with Scotland appointed on that committee, he was at a loss to know on what principle it was that he formed his calculation. He, however, could say very little for the correctness of the hon. member's estimate. He found on that committee, besides those whom the hon. member had mentioned, the lord Advocate, lord F. Gower, who could not be said to have no interest in the question, and Mr. W. Gordon; and when the hon. member for Aberdeen proposed Mr. W. Gordon, he ought to recollect that the proposition was at once agreed to.
Mr. Trant
said, in answer to the observation which had been made by the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Peel), that he went into the committee without any bias on his mind. He was perfectly open to conviction. He scorned the imputation of going into a committee of inquiry with his mind made up to a particular decision.
Mr. Peel
said, he had not insinuated that the hon. member had any undue bias on his mind. He had merely observed, that the hon. member had spoken and voted in favour of the motion.
Mr. Scarlett
observed, that if the object of this committee was fair inquiry, it certainly ought not to be filled up by those who had voted against such inquiry.
The names proposed by Mr. Wynn were then added to the committee.
EXPORTATION OF MACHINERY.
Mr. Hume
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill "to repeal so much of the 6th of Geo. IV. cap. 107, as relates to the Exportation of Tools and Utensils." He contended, that the neces-
1119
Mr. Huskisson
apprehended, that if leave were given to export every species of machinery, without discrimination, considerable mischief must ensue. In some cases, the exportation of machinery had been allowed; namely, in those cases
1120
Mr. Birch
deprecated the introduction of any such measure at the present moment; because it must necessarily produce a most unpleasant feeling in the country. It would be much better to wait until the next session of parliament. As to the committee, to which the hon. mover had alluded, he must say, that the whole of the evidence given before it was decidedly ex-parte.
Mr. Littleton
said, that whatever opinion might be entertained of the merits of this question, the present moment was the most unfavourable that could be selected for agitating it. The inquiry which this subject had undergone was the most defective that could be imagined. There had been no evidence on the subject from Lancashire, Glasgow, Birmingham, or from several other places in which this manufacture was carried on. The House had not heard the opinions of Bolton and Watt, and other eminent scientific men engaged in the trade; but from the information which had reached him on the subject, he was led to believe, that the opinions of those gentlemen were not favourable to an unlimited exportation of machinery. A petition was last year presented from Nottingham, full of information on this subject, and to that petition he should wish to refer the hon. member. He would admit, that in time copies of our machines would find their way into foreign countries; but all those hitherto sent there were imperfect, and to repair them workmen were required from this
1121
Mr. Philips
said, that if we had no means of employing the manufacturers of machines at home, it would be but common justice to allow them to manufacture for foreign countries. The export of machinery would have the effect not only of giving employment to many of the manufacturers, but would also enable many persons in the trade, who now had machines unemployed, to dispose of them to advantage to other countries. With respect to the question then before the House, he thought that on the principle of free trade, which was carried into so many other branches of our commerce, the export of machinery would not have an injurious tendency; but, under all the circumstances of the present time, it was his opinion that it would be better to refer the whole subject to a committee next session.
Mr. Huskisson
said, it would be hopeless to attempt to carry any measure into effect on this subject in the present session.
Mr. Secretary Peel
thought that a dispassionate consideration of the subject could not be expected at the present period. The hon. member had wished for the opinions of practical men on this subject; but he would ask, whether it would be proper to withdraw practical man from other and more important business at this period? If he were an advocate for the measure proposed by the hon. member, he thought he should best promote the object in view, by requesting him to postpone it.
Captain Maberly
expressed a hope, that under the circumstances stated, the hon. member would not press his motion at present.
Mr. Hume
said, he had brought forward the motion in consequence of the petitions which had been presented to the House from the manufacturers of machines, complaining of being out of employment, and praying for relief. He did hope, that the principle which he advocated would at last be adopted; but as some hon. members thought the discussion of the subject would increase irritation in the minds of the manufacturers, and as he had no wish to add to that which already existed, he would, with the leave of the House, withdraw his motion.
1122
The motion was then withdrawn.
CORN IMPORTATION BILL.
On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,
Sir T. Lethbridge
said, he would not detain the House by a repetition of the arguments that bad been urged against the bill; but his opinions as to its injustice and impolicy were unchanged, and he therefore should take the sense of the House upon the second reading. He objected to it chiefly as a measure totally uncalled for by present circumstances. Though he thought that, generally speaking, it was a bad system to adopt, to legislate according to the feelings of people out of doors, which the hon. member for Aberdeen had just professed his willingness to do with regard to his machinery, as he considered it to be the duty of that House the rather to lead public opinion than to follow it; yet, as the doctrine of public feeling had been seconded by the president of the Board of Trade, and by the secretary for the Home Department, he should think himself justified in adopting the same line of argument. The first class which, to a man, were opposed to the measure, were the corn-dealers,—a class with which he did not generally sympathise. A great excitement had been created amongst that class, on account of the attacks which had been made on their property; but that body could meet and express their opinion and feelings simultaneously, as they all met at the corn market; but not so the corn growers, who were diffused throughout the country without any means of communication. If, therefore, he felt for the corn-dealers, he felt doubly for the corn-growers; as the present measure militated principally against their interest. There were 400,000 quarters of bonded corn to be introduced into the market, and 500,000 quarters to be imported; and all this at a time when it was known that there was abundance of corn in the granaries of the country. He denied that the corn had been kept back in the hopes that there would be a scarcity; though he would admit that it was reserved from the prospect of a better market. If ministers were to have the discretion they asked for, he did not wish them to state the price at which foreign corn was to be imported; he would rather that they did not: the measure was theirs, and it was right that they should take all the responsibility, if
1123
Sir W. W. Wynn
said, that at the first introduction of this measure he was not disposed to view it in a favourable light; but, after the best consideration he had been enabled to give it, he thought the decision which the House had come to on the subject was highly creditable to it, and showed the feeling which it entertained for the distresses of the country. He believed that the fears of many hon. members were unfounded, as to the quantity of corn now in bond. It had been stated at 400,000 quarters; but he had reason to think that it did not exceed 269,000 quarters. Peeling that the measure was not likely to be productive of the injury which some hon. members anticipated, he would vote for the second reading; but he would reserve himself as to the details of the measure, until it should be in the committee.
Colonel Wood
regretted that the hon. baronet had determined to take the sense of the House on this measure; for he thought the general question lost much in the opinion of the country by those frequent divisions. If, however, the hon. baronet pressed it to a division, he would vote for the second reading. He would not do so because he approved of the bill as a whole. And here he would observe, in reference to what had fallen from the right hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs on a former evening, that he would not be one of his "compurgators" in bearing him out as to the necessity of this measure. He would, however, go to a committee, and he would there propose that 65
s.
1124
Mr. Bankes
said that the measure, as it now stood, was different from that which had been first introduced. The alterations made were certainly improvements; for had the first proposition been carried, to open the ports at a duty of 12
s.,
s,
s.
s
s.
1125
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that it was a great satisfaction to him to know, that though many gentlemen had felt warmly in the discussions which had recently taken place on this measure, all of them had abstained from examining it with any undue degree of heat and violence. He trusted that they would still preserve the same moderation which had hitherto guided them, and that whatever exasperation might prevail elsewhere, none would be perceived within the walls of that House. He was anxious to make a few remarks on this question, because the greater part of what he had hitherto heard, referred not so much to the question itself, as to the course which government had pursued upon it, and the moment at which it had brought it forward. The hon. member for Dorsetshire had told the House, that he had four objections to it. The first of them was, that government had acted with inconsistency in proposing the measure at all. Now, that might be a good argument as against the government; but, if the measure were right, it was no argument against the measure. He asserted, however, that government had not acted inconsistently. It was true, that when his right hon. friend, the President of the Board of Trade, was asked, early in the session, if it was the intention of his majesty's government to bring forward a general revision of the Corn-laws, his answer was in the negative. The reason was, that the last session of a parliament was a most unfit time for the consideration of a subject of so much importance. The little by-battles that had occurred on the presenting of the several petitions on the subject sufficiently showed the spirit in which the general discussion would have been carried on. But, although his majesty's government thought it inexpedient to enter on the revision of the whole system of the Corn-laws, it by no means followed that it was inconsistent on their part, when any necessity called upon them
1126
1127
1128
Lord Clifton
hoped that this measure would be merely temporary, but felt himself bound, in the choice of evils, to vote with ministers. From every information he had been able to collect from the best informed persons, he believed there was no probability of any scarcity, much less of any famine taking place in the country before the next harvest. So far was he from thinking that there was any "solemn nonsense" in the moral effect which this measure was described as likely to produce, that it was on account of that very "moral effect" that he voted for it. No practical evil, he was convinced, would arise from it; and if it tended, in any degree, to satisfy the public mind, it was at any rate one advantage gained.
Mr. Benett
declared the cause of the existing distress to be the recent tampering with the currency, and added his conviction, that it did not arise out of the Corn-laws. The relief which this measure professed to give to the manufacturers, would be inefficient, if it were not attended by a paper currency; besides, the letting loose the bonded corn, would be of no advantage to the destitute and unemployed manufacturers, unless it were given to them. The effect of the measure must be either to reduce the market price of corn or not. If it did reduce it, it would involve the agriculturists in distress without relieving the manufacturers, and thus it would ul-
1129
Mr. Wodehouse
said, he would certainly give his support to the proposition of the hon. member for Brecon, and allow the bill to be read a second time. Any objections to the detail could be much more conveniently urged in the committee.
Mr. Stanley
gave notice, that in the committee on the bill, he would propose a clause that the local committees, upon producing certificates of their having bought the bonded corn let loose into the market for the purpose of distributing it among the distressed manufacturers, should be entitled to claim from the Treasury repayment of the duties paid upon it. In making this proposition, which would have the effect of localizing the relief afforded by government, he trusted he should have the assistance of the majority of the House.
Sir E. Knatchbull
felt compelled to vote against the second reading of the bill. He had heard with considerable satisfaction the proposition which had come from the last speaker, but could not guess how far it would meet the approbation of government.
Lord Milton
said, he was rejoiced to hear that the proposition of the hon. member had the approbation of the hon. baronet; but if the hon. baronet supposed the House could get through this question without some discussion on the Corn-laws, he would find himself greatly mistaken. The measures now proposed proclaimed to the world that the Corn-laws were laws which could not be permanent in this country. They were laws for fair weather, and whenever a storm arose, it became necessary to re-consider them. Honourable members must, therefore, if this measure passed, make up their minds to consider fully the whole question at an early period of the next session. He was not absurd enough to suppose that the Corn-laws were the sole cause of the existing distress in the manufacturing districts; but he had no hesitation in saying, that in one respect they had a great effect in producing it, and that was in the interruption which they gave to the commercial interests of our manufacturers with foreign countries. Honourable gentlemen might depend upon it, that the Corn-laws would be settled in one way or another before long.
1130
1131
s.
l.
Mr. Secretary Peel
regretted very much that the noble lord had made a speech, which, with whatever good humour it might have been delivered, was, in consequence of the introduction of some topics, calculated to interrupt the temperate and moderate course in which the debate had hitherto proceeded. An opportunity had been taken by the noble lord to involve the House in a very important discussion, which, however fit for consideration on another occasion, was certainly rather ill-timed on the present [cheers, with cries of "no, no!"]. When he heard it preferred as a charge.—
Lord Milton.
—Not as a charge.
Mr. Peel
continued.—Well then, when he heard the landed interest referred to as having supported the government at an arduous crisis, he felt that they had a right to look back to what they had done with conscious pride and satisfaction, considering the glory their country had acquired, and the services they had ren-
1132
1133
s.
s.
1134
Mr. H. Sumner
said, that his main objection to this measure was, that it was not called for by circumstances of necessity. No case had been made out for it, and any inference to be drawn from the state of the markets was unfavourable, rather than favourable, to it. It was now said, that it was not so much the amount as the invariability of duty which was the desired object; but was the letting of the bonded corn into the market a means of securing steadiness of price? Quite the contrary. The price of corn had never been so unvarying as for the last seven years, but this influx of bonded corn would generate great fluctuations in the price. He asserted, from a knowledge of the circumstances, that 50
s.
1135
Mr. Wharton
said, he belonged to what were called the country gentlemen in that House, and his object in rising was to defend them from the charges which had been brought against them. It had been said, that it was they who brought the country to its present state of distress by supporting the last war. For himself, he should say that he was not one of those who supported that war: on the contrary, he had always opposed it, and supported every measure which was calculated to hasten its conclusion. He was, therefore, innocent of all its consequences, and he hoped his country would acquit him of being accessary to its bad effects.
The House then divided: For the second reading 189; Against it 65; Majority 124.
List of the Minority.
Ashurst, W.
Hurst, R.
Bankes, H.
Ingilby, sir W.
Barnard, visc.
Inglis, sir H.
Bastard, E. P.
Johnson, col.
Becher, W. W.
Jones, J.
Belgrave, visc.
King, sir J. D.
Benett, J.
Kingsborough, visc.
Bond, J.
Luttrell, J. F.
Burrell, sir C.
Manners, lord C.
Burrell, Walter
Marjoribanks, sir J.
Calcraft, J.
Osborne, lord F.
Cavendish, lord G.
Pollen, sir J.
Cavendish, C.
Powell, W. E.
Chandos, marquis
Pryse, Pryse.
Chaplin, C.
Pym, F.
Corbett, P.
Rickford, W.
Corry, visc.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Cotterell, sir J. G.
Rowley, sir W.
Curteis, E. J.
Sebright, sir J.
Dawson, M.
Sefton, earl of
Dickinson, W.
Shaw, sir R.
Duncannon, visc.
Smith, Abel
Fane, J.
Smith, hon. R.
Fleming, J.
Sumner, G. H.
Grant, J. P.
Trant, W. H.
Gooch, T.
Tremayne, J. H.
Gordon, hon. R.
Vivian, sir R.
Guise, sir W.
Webb, E.
Gurney, R. H.
Westenra, hon. H.
Harvey, sir E.
Wharton, J.
Handley, H.
TELLERS.
Heron, sir R.
Knatchbull, sir E.
Honywood, W. P.
Lethbridge, sir T.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 12 1826.
CORN IMPORTATION BILL.
The House having resolved itself into a committee on this bill,
Colonel Wood
said, he did not wish to obtrude his opinions upon the House, al-
1136
s.
Mr. Calcraft
suggested to his hon. friend the propriety of standing still. As ministers had taken upon themselves the responsibility, it would be better for the landed interest to leave the matter entirely in their hands. He did not think that circumstances would arise to call for the exercise of the power; but in case they did, it would be better that ministers should have the entire responsibility.
Sir E. Harvey
said, he would not persevere in the opposition.
Colonel Wood
then said, he should not press the motion, although his mind remained unaltered.
Lord Milton
said, that the gentlemen who had spoken seemed to have withdrawn their opposition, in the hope that they should be thereby the better enabled to fight their battle. Whether this might be the case he could not tell; but he begged to guard himself against being supposed one of those who thought 65
s.
s.
s.
Mr. Calcraft
warmly defended the landed interest from the continually recurring taunts and attacks of the noble lord. The Corn-laws were intended more to favour the production of corn in this country than to put money into the pockets of the landowners. He, however, was for a free trade in corn—he meant, of course, subject to a protecting duty.
Lord Milton
disclaimed any intention of wounding the feelings of the landed interest; but he thought no class of persons had a right to hold themselves above the free observation of the members of that House. In the publications in defence of the Corn-laws, he had always seen them represented as being intended for the benefit of the landed interest. He had no hesitation in avowing, that he had changed his opinion with respect to those laws. He remembered, that in the first speech he had made on this subject, he had stated it as his opinion, that it was essential to the independence of the country, that it should raise all its food within
1137
Mr. N. Calvert
strongly objected to the conduct of the noble lord, in encouraging the cry against the landed interest.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
felt that when, by common consent, or, he should rather say, at the earnest request of the whole House, his hon. friend had withdrawn his intended amendment, this was not a fit occasion for an angry discussion of the general principle of the Corn-laws. Some expressions had certainly been used by the noble lord, which, he regretted to say, were calculated to produce feelings of irritation. He trusted, however, that this course would not again be pursued, as he was convinced, that the worst thing that could happen to prevent a fair and candid consideration of the Corn-laws at any future period, was to seize every passing opportunity, when that subject was touched upon, to excite the feelings of the country.
Mr. Calcraft
said, that if, as the noble lord had stated, no class was to be so high as to be above animadversion, none was so low as to be deprived of defence. He would tell the noble lord what he understood by a remunerating price. It was three per cent on the purchase money, and five per cent on the capital expended on the land. Surely this was no such extravagant expectation.
Major Maberly
objected generally to the principle of the Corn-laws, on account of their tendency to bring bad land into cultivation, and thereby render it impos-
1138
Mr. Maberly
wished to have a positive assurance from ministers, that the general question of the Corn-laws should be taken into consideration next year. All classes were equally and justly dissatisfied with their vacillating and uncertain policy.
Colonel Wood
said, that the only understanding on which he had withdrawn his amendment was the general expression of the feeling of the House, that he should not go any further. He had no communication with any body on the subject. When he found such a general agreement, he was not so presumptuous as to persevere against the sense of the House. But if they wished him to proceed, there he was, with his amendment in his pocket, and his speech ready, as well as he could make one.
Sir W. Ingilby
said, that although he understood the gentlemen of the landed interest had compromised this subject with his majesty's ministers, he for one could not give his assent to any such arrangement. If, however, he was, from a conviction of the impolicy of such arrangement, disposed to oppose it, he was still more confirmed in his opposition by seeing the hon. member for Brecon, to whom the agricultural interests seemed to have confided their case, come down with an amendment ready cut and dry in support of such an arrangement. For his part, he could not feel himself justified in bartering away the interests of one of the largest agricultural counties in England, without the most unquestionable proof of its necessity. The farmers of that county were in a state of the greatest terror and alarm, from the impolitic, mischievous and useless, agitation of the corn question at the present moment—a time of all others the least fitted for attempting any of those perilous changes which must be produced by persisting in the course they were called upon to adopt. No prudent government ought, indeed, to have proposed measures likely to excite so much agitation in the present state of the country. At a moment when the bankers, merchants, manufacturers, and the great mass of the people were suffering the greatest evils, and almost plunged into despair, from the losses of the past and the prospect of the future—at that moment, ministers, to increase the evil, and extend the calamity, chose to throw the agricultural districts into alarm and dismay, by
1139
s.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that this amendment could not, by possibility, form part of the present bill. The hon. baronet had mistaken it for the warehoused corn-bill, which stood the next on the orders of the day.
Mr. Portman
said, he would not press his motion for a minimum or maximum of price. He preferred throwing the whole responsibility on the shoulders of ministers.
The House then resumed.
WAREHOUSED CORN BILL.
On the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill,
Mr. Benett
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
l.,
Mr. Portman
said, if he thought that the admission of the bonded corn at a duty of 12
s.
1140
Mr. Huskisson
repeated the statement which had been already made, that the reason for fixing the duty at 12
s.
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.,
s.
Mr. Baring
said, that if he thought the duty of 17
s.
1141
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
s.
s.,
s.,
s.
s.
s.
s.,
s.
Mr. Ellice
thought that, in the settlement of the duty, some regard ought to be had to the quality of the corn in bond. A great deal of it was of so inferior a description, that 12
s.
1142
Mr. T. Wilson
denied that the dealers in corn deserved the aspersions which had been cast upon them.
Mr. Whitmore
thought it would be impolitic, as well as ungracious, to lay on a higher duty than the 12
s.
Mr. Monck
agreed entirely with ministers in postponing the general discussion of the Corn-laws to the next session; but he merely concurred in this postponement, on account of the change which had been made in the state of the currency. He trusted that now, when country gentlemen saw that ministers could not, or would not, protect them in their high prices, they would direct their attention to a more legitimate source of wealth—a reduction of the burthens of the country.
The amendment was negatived. The House having resolved itself into a committee, the clause imposing a duty of 12
s.
Mr. Stanley
said, that he had no reason to change the opinion which he had formerly expressed upon the subject under discussion. He was quite sure that the present measure would be productive of little permanent benefit. He nevertheless thought that as it had been held out as a means of affording a temporary relief, it would be ungracious now to stop short. With a view, however, of rendering that relief as extensive as possible, he should propose a clause, that on a certificate from the chairman of any local committee for the relief of the distressed in the manufacturing districts, that a quantity of bonded corn had been purchased for the relief of the distressed districts, government should remit to the committee a sum of money equal to the amount of duty paid upon that corn, to be employed in the further business of relief.
Mr. Huskisson
objected to the proposed clause. He thought that the hon. gentleman's late visit to Lancashire had made so great an impression on him as to induce him to confine his view of this subject to the distress in that neighbourhood alone. But there were other parts of the country which felt the pressure, and which were quite as much manufacturing districts. Shropshire, Warwickshire, Somer-
1143
Sir John Wrottesley
objected to the bill generally, and expressed his conviction, that if the currency had not been interfered with, the present distress would not have existed. He was sure, also, that if an immediate return to the former system was not adopted, still greater distress would be felt.
Mr. Peel
opposed the clause, on the ground that it was likely to afford opportunities for numerous frauds, and that it would not reach the distress of the interior of the country, without doing, at the same time, considerable mischief. He objected
1144
The clause was withdrawn. After which the report of the committee was brought up.
NAVIGATION LAWS—STATE OF THE
Mr. Huskisson
rose, and spoke, in substance, as follows:
*
*
1145
1146
1147
First;
Secondly;
Thirdly;
First, the Fisheries.
1148
second
third
European trade.
fourth
Commerce
1149
with Asia, Africa, and America.
fifth
1150
1151
1152
1153
1154
1155
1156
1157
1158
1159
1160
1161
1162
British Ships.
Ships of all other Nations.
In the year 1821
2,819
6,358
In the year 1822
3,097
5,386
In the year 1823
3,016
6,187
In the year 1824
3,540
6,978
In the year 1825
5,186
7,974
1163
1164
1165
gravamen
1166
quâ non,
1167
1168
1169
1170
1171
Extract of a Despatch from Mr. Consul Gibson, dated Dantzic, the
th August,
"My lord:—I do myself the honour to transmit to your lordship a translation of the order of cabinet (which I have only now been able to procure) respecting an increase of the government port charges in the Prussian ports, on vessels belonging to countries between which and Prussia no reciprocity has been fixed by treaty, or which do not otherwise treat Prussian ships and their cargoes as advantageously as their own. Prussia has made arrangements with Holland, Denmark, and America, for establishing a reciprocity in this respect, and the present regulation has evidently for object to induce other countries,
particularly Britain,
"At present Prussian, Dutch, Danish and American ships pay, as public port charges here, about 46½ common groshes, or about 17⅔
d.
d.
d.
viz.
1172
Pence Sterling per Ton measurement.
"On ships coming in with a full cargo of goods about
58
"On ships with a quarter of a cargo or less
29
"On ships going out with a full cargo
29
"On ships with a quarter of a cargo or less
14½
"Thus vessels arriving even in ballast, and taking a cargo back, will in future be burthened with about 37¾d. sterling per ton measurement more government port charges than Prussian ships; which however is not quite so great an advantage to the latter as British vessels have over Prussian in Britain, by paying lower port charges, light money, &c. and less duty on the cargo, if of timber for instance, which gives the chief employment to Prussian ships.
"The Prussian government make this new port charge regulation professedly from the interest created by the situation of their ship-owners, who are indeed all going to ruin."
Cabinet Order of the
th June,
for the Encouragement of Home Shipping.
"In consideration of the unfavourable state of the shipping of this country for several years past, and in consequence of the representations made to me, founded on divers consultations, that the unfavourable state of things operates the more injuriously on the said trade, as the principles always observed here, of imposing moderate burthens on foreign ships frequenting Prussian ports, and of levying the same duties on goods imported or exported, whether in foreign or in native ships are not adopted in several foreign ports frequented by Prussian ships; I have resolved, so long as these relations subsist, so detrimental to the maintenance of this important branch of domestic trade, to grant the said trade greater advantages than it has hitherto enjoyed; I therefore do ordain,
"
First.
"
Secondly.
1173
a
b.
a.
b.
c.
"say In-coming.
1
"Out-going.
½
"Ships in ballast are not subject to the increased imposts.
"The proceeds of this impost shall not be considered as an additional source of revenue to the state, but shall be applied for the benefit of the Ship-owners, accordingly as you, the minister of commerce, shall propose to me.
"
Thirdly.
"The first and third of the foregoing enactments shall be put in force immediately; but the second point only in three months after publication of this order, which is to be made through the collection of laws, and according to which the needful is to be decreed.
(Signed) "FREDERICK WILHELM."
Extract of a Despatch from Vice-Consul Tuke, dated Konigsberg,
nd August,
"Sir:—I beg leave to draw the attention of your excellency to several new laws and regulations of the Prussian government, which are highly detrimental to the British trade, and respecting which numerous complaints have been made to me by the merchants and shipmasters interested in the trade between this country and Great Britain.
"By the last tariff, a duty of one guil-
1174
"According to a cabinet order, dated Berlin, 20th June, 1822, intended for the encouragement of Prussian shipping, the King has been pleased to direct a duty of three dollars per last to be charged on all foreign vessels arriving with cargoes after the expiration of three months. This tax is so important in its consequences as to demand immediate attention, for a moderate-sized vessel will, by this order, be compelled to pay three hundred dollars in addition to the existing heavy charges, which will entirely prevent our vessels from enjoying the carrying trade from home to this country."
Extract of a Despatch from Vice-Consul Fowler, dated Memel,
st August,
"This difference between British and Prussian shipping" (i. e. the difference established by the decree of 20th of June) "must drive the carrying trade in British bottoms from this port, to the great injury of the British shipping interest; for about three hundred British vessels, on an average, load here annually with timber for Great Britain, which, of course, cannot bear such heavy charges, as cargoes consisting of grain, flax, hemp, tallow, &c. &c, and which are of so much more considerable value. The merchants here, who are principally British, have protested against this new regulation, and petitioned the Prussian government for the repeal thereof."
From what I have now read, the House will at once understand the nature of the measures adopted by the Prussian government, in the year 1822, and the motives which influenced them in that proceeding. What was the consequence of these measures? Why, that, in the next
1175
Against such a reply, what remonstrance could we, in fairness, make to the Prussian government? We might have addressed ourselves, it may be said by some, to the friendly feelings of that government;—we might have pleaded long usage in support of our discriminating duties;—we might have urged the advantages which Prussia derived from her trade with England. Appeals like these were not forgotten in the discussion, but they were of little avail against the fact stated by Mr. Consul Gibson—that "the Prussian ship-owners were all going to ruin."
By others, it may be said, "your duty was, to retaliate, by increasing your own port charges, and discriminating duties, on Prussian shipping." I have already stated generally my reasons against the policy of this latter course. We were not prepared to begin a system of commercial hostility, which, if followed up on both sides to its legitimate consequences, could only tend to reciprocal
1176
Having concluded an arrangement with Prussia upon this basis, we soon found it necessary to do the same with some other of the northern states. Similar conventions were accordingly entered into with Denmark and Sweden. Reciprocity is the foundation of all those conventions; but it is only fair to add, that they contain other stipulations for giving facility to trade, and from which the commerce of this country, I am confident, will in the result, derive considerable advantage.
When his majesty's government had successively made the concession of these discriminating duties to the United States, to Prussia, to Denmark, and to Sweden, I should have been ashamed of the councils of this country if we had hesitated to enter into a similar agreement with the free Hanseatic towns of Hamburgh, Bremen, and Lubeck. These little states, I admit, bad imposed no discriminating duties upon our ships, though they had the power to do so. But would it have been worthy of the character of this great country, consistent with its justice, or honourable to its generosity, to continue to levy, upon the trade and shipping of these ports, duties which were no longer paid by the subjects of more powerful states!—to have made their forbearance the plea for our exaction, or to have waited to do an act of justice until they had deprived us of that plea?
In our treatment of these free towns, this country ought not altogether to forget that, amidst the barbarous ignorance, and habitual violence, of the feudal ages, those little republics were the refuge of commerce, and the nurseries of civilization. They were the sanctuaries, in which the arts and pursuits, most conducive to the enjoyments and improvement of mankind, were respected, amidst the scenes of bloodshed, rapine, and insecurity, by which they were too often surrounded. With these recollections, I shall, perhaps, be excused, if I express my regret, that several of the little trading communities on the continent have ceased to be free and independent. In point of
1177
If we look at the present question, as connected with our maritime strength, I contend that there can be little or no danger from the arrangements which I have now described. The states to which those arrangements extend, from their situation, and from many other circumstances, which it is not necessary for me to mention, never can become formidable as maritime powers;—they never can dispute with us the ascendancy on the ocean, nor have they an interest in assisting others to obtain that ascendancy. Their commercial interests, and regard to their own security, must alike incline them to our side.
In time of peace, it is well known, the policy of this country excludes, as much as possible, from our commercial marine the natives of all foreign countries; but, in time of war, when our native seamen are required for the king's service, we are under the necessity of admitting Volunteers from other countries to man our merchant ships. The consequence is, that, from our multiplied intercourse with those secondary states, their seamen, in; time of war, tempted by higher wages and other advantages, assist in manning our merchant ships, and thereby afford us great facilities for carrying on our extensive commerce. On the restoration of, peace, these volunteers are, most of them, forced to seek employment again in the merchantmen of their own countries; and
1178
If, therefore, by this system of extended reciprocity, a somewhat larger share of the carrying trade between Great Britain and these secondary states, devolve to their shipping, in time of peace, so far as this participation is obtained at the expense of any diminished employment for our own shipping, we may regret the diminution: at the same time, if the circumstances which lead to it be unavoidable, it is some consolation to know, that the corresponding increase, elsewhere, is divided among those countries which cannot be dangerous, and are likely to be most useful to us, in time of war.
The timber trade with Norway has, at all times, been carried on chiefly in the ships of that country. They are built for the purpose, in the cheapest manner, but so rudely constructed, as to be unfit for the conveyance of almost any other article. In respect to the Prussian timber ships, they are also of a construction very inferior to the shipping of this country, built for the purpose of general trade. We are told by most of the petitioners, and figures are adduced to prove the statements, that they are sent to sea and navigated at less than one-half of the expense of British ships. If it be so, the restoration of the discriminating duty, to the repeal of which these petitioners attribute all their present difficulties, would be of little avail to protect them. That protection was 2
s.
d.
s.
d.,
s.
d.
1179
After all, there is nothing new in the complaints now made of the increased employment of the shipping of the northern powers, in their trade with this country. Similar complaints were made after the American war. In the year 1786, the ship-owners represented that our laws gave too great an advantage to foreign ships, and especially to the foreign ships employed in the importation of timber from the Baltic.
In consequence of this representation the Board of Trade of that day entered upon an inquiry into the subject. Mr. Reeves, in his work on the Law of Shipping and Navigation, states, in reference to this inquiry, that,
"In the year 1786, it was observed, that the quantity of foreign ships employed in the importation of goods from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and the East country, was much greater in proportion to the British, than the foreign tonnage employed in other trades; and that it was increasing in general, and the British shipping employed in some of these trades was, at the same time, decreasing. A reference was made, in consequence, to the Board of Customs, to see whether it might not be proper to augment the duty, called the alien's duty, or petty custom, on such of the goods enumerated and described in the eighth and ninth sections of the act of navigation as were then subject to it, and were imported from the before-mentioned countries; and whether such increase would materially operate to increase the burthens on, and consequently the prices of, those articles, if such duty were increased gradually; that is, by making it double from the first of January, 1787, and treble from the first of January, 1788; and in case the Board
1180
As it does not appear that recourse was had to these expedients, it is to be inferred that, upon further consideration, it was found it would not be safe to risk the experiment. The northern powers had not then complained of our existing alien charges upon their shipping; they had taken no steps to countervail those charges in their ports; but did it follow that they would continue passive, if a question then at rest had been disturbed, by increasing those charges in the manner suggested? In my opinion, to leave the question at rest, as long as possible, was the wisest policy for this country. It was the policy pursued until the matter was taken up, not by us but by the United States of America, and in succession by other powers. In that state of things, and after the arrangements which we had entered into with those powers, acting upon the necessity of the case, I felt, in the course of the last session, that it would be better to make our laws upon this point square with our practice—better as one general rule—first, to tender to all nations alike, and indiscriminately, equal facilities of commerce and navigation, and equal inducements to visit the ports of this country, with their merchandise, either for our own consumption, or in the way of transit (entrepôt) to other parts of the world:—secondly, to abolish all discriminating duties affecting differently the like productions of foreign countries, and, in lieu thereof, to establish one uniform tariff for the whole:—and thirdly, to reduce that tariff to the lowest degree, consistent in each particular article, with the two legitimate objects of all duties—either the collection of the necessary public revenue, or the protection requisite for the maintenance of our own internal industry. These are the principles according to which our new book of rates has been formed, and the consolidation of our innumerable, and, in many instances, inconsistent and contradictory laws of customs been effected.
A few observations on our commercial
1181
In process of time, however, the government of the United States, jealous of a trade in which British shipping alone was employed, said to this country—"If you want the productions of our country, for the use of your colonies, and will not allow us to send them in our ships, we will entirely prohibit the exportation to your colonies, in British shipping, of those articles of which your colonies stand in need." They did so. The British government had then recourse to another expedient, in order to avert the threatened inconvenience, and at the same time to avoid any positive alteration of our navigation laws. A sort of open mart or fair was established, at some half-way place between the coast of America and the West Indies, to which the ships of the United States came, and where, being met by our traders, the respective parties interchanged commodities, according to their mutual wants.
But the government of the United States again interfered, and prohibited their ships from this trade. After a suspension of intercourse had continued for some time, parliament, in the year 1822, passed an act, by which American ships were allowed to trade, directly, between the United States and our colonies, in the West Indies, and North America.
Now let me ask, was it politic, was it altogether consistent with impartiality, and our friendly relations with the north of Europe, to grant to the shipping of the
1182
Considering, therefore, the act of 1822, and the changes which had taken place in the colonial system of other powers, it appeared to me that the time was arrived when upon every sound principle it would be right to extend to the foreign shipping of Europe, the same privilege of trading with our colonies in the New World, which had been granted to the shipping of America; and also to give a greater facility, and extension, to the intercourse between foreign countries and our colonies generally—strictly confining, however, to British shipping only, all trade between this country and the colonies, and all inter-colonial trade between the different foreign possessions of the British empire.
Whether we look to the interests of our commerce, which are also the interests of our navigation;—whether we look to the separate interests of the colonies, or to the general interests of the parent country;—or whether we consider the changes which have recently taken place, especially in the New World;—all these considerations appear to me to concur in
1183
Shipping, like other branches of business in this country, is liable to fluctuation. There may be great excitement at one period, and great depression at another. Last year, for instance, the demand far exceeded the means of the British ship-owners to supply it. The price of freight for foreign adventures was, inconsequence, so much raised as to become a very serious injury and interruption to other branches of navigation, more especially to our coasting trade. Yet, such was the unbridled rage for speculation which then prevailed, that our tonnage could not keep pace with it, and foreign vessels were taken up in every port of Europe, not from a preference, but because British ships could not be procured. This is not the proper occasion to inquire into the origin of the almost universal mania which appears to have seized upon merchants and manufacturers, not of this country only, but, more or less, upon those of other countries, during the last year. It is now too generally seen and admitted, even by those who were most infected by that mania, that their speculations were carried on without reference to the habitual scale of our consumption, or to the rapid accumulation of goods, or to any of those circumstances which, in their calmer moments, direct the operations of commercial men. When prices had risen, in the first instance from natural causes perhaps, speculation soon forced a further and more rapid rise, and the only inference, for a time, among buyers, seems to have been, that it would continue progressive, and almost indefinite.
Connecting this rage for speculation with the employment of shipping, the House will be surprised to hear in what a degree the quantity of bulky articles from foreign countries, and from our possessions in North America, in the last year, exceeded the importations of former years. In the year 1822, the total importation of timber from foreign countries was 140,715 loads—in 1825, it amounted to not less than 301,548.
Cwts.
Of flax in 1822
607,143
Of flax in 1825
1,042,956
Of tallow in 1822
805,238
Of tallow in 1825
1,164,029
Lbs
Of wool in 1822.
19,048,879
1184
Of Wool in 1825
43,700,553
Bushels.
Of linseed in 1822
1,411,137
Of linseed in 1825
2,876,571
From British America
Loads.
Of timber., in 1822
345,74.1
Of timber in 1825
467,565
Cwts.
Ashes. in 1822
135,983
Ashes in 1825
210,781
Masts from all parts of the world, under twelve inches
Number.
in diameter in 1822
14,484
in diameter in 1825
19,016
Above twelve inches in diameter:
Loads.
in 1822
4,577
in 1825
8,698
The result of all this overtrading of last year, of which I have selected only a few instances, is the depression which now prevails, the interruption of commercial credit, the great diminution of employment for manufacturing labour in this country, and the general derangement of business in the countries with which our principal interchange of commodities is carried on. I deplore this state of things, not the less, certainly, because it is not confined to this country; and, in alluding to the sufferings of others, I do so, not as a source of consolation to ourselves, but as evidence, that this derangement is to be traced to some cause of more extensive effect than the municipal regulations of this country.
It would be matter of surprise if, amidst this almost universal stagnation of demand, the shipping interest, which had fully participated in the extraordinary activity of the preceding period, should not partake of the languor by which it is now-succeeded. In looking dispassionately at this or any other of tire leading interests of this country, we must not draw our conclusions from extreme cases, either way. We must also recollect that shipping, in common with every other mode of employing capital and industry, when it seeks a foreign market is liable to be affected by a competition with other countries, and by acts of foreign states, over which we can have no control. As far as exclusion is within our reach,—in the coasting trade,—in the fisheries,—in the trade between this country and our foreign possessions, — we grant a strict! monopoly to the British ship-owner. It is our duty to maintain and enforce that
1185
In such a state of things, our policy must be, retaining the important principles of that system as much as possible, to adapt it to the change in our situation, and to the altered relation in which we stand to the parties with which we have to deal.
The first effect of such inevitable changes, either in navigation or trade, is, usually, more or less, to derange the interests, upon which they immediately bear; but the temporary difficulty is generally overcome by the speedy opening of fresh channels of employment, and is soon merged in the increased enterprise which attracts capital and shipping to some other quarter. This was the case after the separation of the British colonies in North America; and I hope for a similar issue on the present occasion.
We are all agreed that our commercial marine is the foundation of our naval power, and that the maintenance of that power is the paramount duty of those who administer the affairs of this country. In an inquiry like this, therefore, the most important question for the consideration of the House is, not the detail of each separate branch of trade in which our commercial marine was employed in any particular year, but its aggregate amount at this time, compared with the aggregate amount at some antecedent period.
Now, Sir, I have already stated what that amount was at the breaking out of the last war in 1793, and what it is at the present time. The comparison, taken by itself, certainly affords no ground for despondency or alarm. But, in making this comparison in reference to our military marine, we are also to bear in mind, that in 1793, both the military and commercial marine of France and Spain were much more numerous than they are at present. The navy of Spain, once so powerful, has dwindled almost to nothing; her merchant
1186
These are among the recollections which belong to the American war. How different from those which connect themselves with the war by which it was succeeded! That our sway on every part of the ocean was undisputed by the naval power, not of France and Spain only, but of all Europe, before the close of the lost war, is matter of notoriety. In fact the British navy was then occupied in the blockade of every naval arsenal of its enemies; and this, for the last years of the war, formed its principal employment in Europe.
When we began that war, in the course of which we achieved so many victories, our commercial marine was three-fifths of its present amount. Our seamen in the king's navy, 16,000, instead of 30,000, their present number. We had then no reserve of veteran seamen, receiving for former services an annual allowance from the state. We have now such a reserve amounting to many thousands, all of whom are liable, upon an emergency, to be called upon by the admiralty, and of whom a large proportion would, I have no
1187
Never, I will venture to affirm, was there a time when the country might rest with greater confidence and satisfaction on the sufficiency of its naval resources than at the present.
But we are told, and I am ready to admit it, that if the naval resources of France and Spain have declined, a new and formidable power has grown up in the United States of America. I have already stated, that the maritime means of that country had, from peculiar circumstances, been considerably benefitted during the late war, which lasted so long, and spread so generally through Europe. But, if the commercial marine of the United States increased during that period, our own advanced in a greater amount. Since the restoration of a general peace, the shipping of both countries has rather decreased. The diminution in that of the United States has been stated at 168,000 tons, which I believe to be fully equal to any diminution that has occurred in this country. I am warranted, therefore, in concluding that, upon a comparison of our commercial marine with the commercial marine of other powers, we have no reason to apprehend any of the difficulties now which the petitioners predict, and that our naval means are fully adequate to any possible emergency which may compel us to call them into exertion.
If, Sir, I have trespassed too long upon the time of the House, my apology, I trust, will be found in the vital importance of the subject. The severe distress, under which the country now labours, is attributed, in some quarters, to the changes which have recently taken place in our navigation system, and in our commercial policy. If any honourable members entertain that opinion, all that I ask of them is, to come forward, and point out distinctly to the House the specific changes to which they ascribe these consequences. It is for them to shew, if they can, by evidence, or by argument, the connexion of cause and effect between those changes and the difficulties in which the country is now, unhappily, involved. Let them give a notice, and appoint a day for that purpose. This would be the manly course to pursue;—it was the
1188
Mr. Huskisson
concluded by moving for the following returns:—
1189
Mr. Baring
said, he was most willing to bear testimony to the great industry bestowed on that department of government over which the right hon. gentleman presided, of which the able and elaborate detail just given to the House afforded ample proof. There was hardly one point on which the right hon. gentleman had touched, in which he did not concur with him; and he rose, not so much with the intention of following the right hon. gentleman's remarks, as that of thanking him for the able manner in which he had developed his views, and for the general system he proposed to adopt with respect to our domestic and foreign shipping. As to the effects of the alterations introduced by the right hon. gentleman, he could speak with some confidence, having watched them narrowly; because, he was sure no man could say beforehand—and any man who pretended so to say was a charlatan—what effects would arise from any measure; and he knew they had been beneficial, though he was not prepared to find them equal to what the returns read by the right hon. gentleman stated them to be. By them it appeared, that there had been a considerable increase in the trade with the north of Europe, conformably to what had before been stated. When he recollected, however, the mad speculations of last year and the stupor of the present, he hardly thought that any returns made of these two periods could, with safety, be assumed as the correct basis for sober calculation. The people of this country, particularly those connected with the shipping interest, laboured probably under a mistake, in expecting now to possess the monopoly of trade as they had done during the war. There was no possibility of their having this,
1190
1191
Mr. Robertson
contended, that the statements of the right hon. gentleman were at variance with the papers then before the House. During the last four
1192
1193
Sir M. W. Ridley
observed, that as he had recently presented a petition to that House from a body of persons whose interests were intimately connected with the subject under consideration, he would beg to be allowed to say a few words in elucidation of their case. Arguing from the documents already before the House, he must say, that in many important points he differed most materially from the right hon. the President of the Board of Trade. By those documents it appeared, that the foreign tonnage which had entered the port of London had doubled in the last three years. What was the relative state of our exports and imports? In the years 1824 and 1825, the imports to Great Britain from Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Russia, increased to the value of 243,151
l.,
l.
1194
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
l.
s.
l.
s.
s.
s.
d.
l.,
1195
Mr. Ellice
said, that in his opinion the proceedings of last year had materially added to the distresses of the shipping interest, and had produced changes not only in this country, but all over the world. The present distress was said, by ministers, to have been created by the system of over-trading which our merchants and manufacturers had pursued; but he begged leave to retort the charge, and to declare that ministers themselves had been the cause of that over-trading, by the excitement and stimulus which they had given to the already excited spirit of speculation. He had no hesitation in saying, that the calamities of 1816, of 1819, and of 1826, had all been produced by the sudden contraction of the issues of the country, which had been previously deluged with paper money, beyond the amount required by its internal and external commerce. It was said now, that the quantity of shipping was increasing in this country, and not only here, but in Canada; but the fact was, that though more vessels might now be built in that colony than had formerly been built there, they were brought home almost immediately afterwards, and sold for little more than half of their original cost. The new ships not only could not find sufficient employment, but in what they did obtain they interfered with the employment of those vessels with which our ports were already overstocked. The right hon. gentleman had said, that within the last year there had been an increase of British shipping, beyond the increase of foreign shipping in the same time. That fact might easily be accounted for, without at all proving that our shipping interest was in a better situation than it had formerly been. The increase referred to, was the consequence of that system of over-trading which the right hon. gentleman deplored, and which, when we were importing from all parts of the continent, had occasioned a demand for the service of all the British shipping; and when their numbers were exhausted, and not till then, had had recourse to foreign shipping to aid in satisfying the powerful commercial excitement which had been created. The shipping interest were mistaken if they imagined that the right hon. gentleman could alter his course for their particular benefit. He could not do so: and if he did, he would not do enough. What course, then, must he pursue? Why, he must not only follow
1196
1197
Mr. Haldimand
said, he did not mean to enter into a detail of the arguments, respecting the right hon. gentleman's commercial policy, but he could not refrain from expressing his opinion, that the right hon. gentleman had pursued his theory with a little too much eagerness. He made this remark without at all intending to charge all the evils of the country on that theory; which, however, he believed could no longer be pursued, unless a reduction of taxation was effected that would enable our merchants to compete with foreigners in the various markets of the world. We had been engaged in a conflict with the whole of Europe, which had brought great burthens upon us, and had so augmented the national taxation, that every interest in the country was fettered, and in a condition that ought to excite great alarm. It was far from his disposition to desire to debar foreigners from a participation in the benefits of British commerce; but, in the first instance, we ought to look with caution into our own affairs. We ought to look at the means by which this country had arrived at the pitch of grandeur it had attained; and then turn to our present enormous expenditure, and endeavour to ascertain how the career of prosperity was to be maintained with an expenditure of nearly sixty millions a year.
Captain Gordon,
in alluding to the increased quantity of foreign shipping which had been in our ports since the passing of the reciprocity acts, took occasion to observe, that he was not at all surprised at it. Foreign ships, he was well aware, could be bought and navigated at a much less expense than our own, in consequence of our ship-builders having to send abroad for most of their materials, and also in consequence of their having to pay a greater sum for wages and provisions. Merchants, who had goods to freight, would naturally send them by those vessels which asked the least price; and, as the foreigner could afford to convey at a less price than the British shipowner, it was no wonder that, of late years, a greater quantity of foreign shipping had arrived in our ports. He had neverdoubted that this would be the effect of the system of reciprocity. Though he had no knowledge of political economy, he was inclined to believe that the increased amount of exports and imports was a proof of increased prosperity; and yet he could not conceal from himself a
1198
Mr. T. Wilson
said, that he could not concur in the view which the right hon. gentleman below him had taken of the present state of the shipping interest. The right hon. gentleman had ascribed the present distressed state of it to the over-trading which had recently prevailed throughout the country. Now, that over-trading was owing to the government and not to the merchants; and therefore the right hon. gentleman was not justified in saying, that the merchants were themselves to blame for the depression which existed in every department of the shipping interest. He admitted, that when the freights were high last year, we were enabled to compete with the foreigner; but he complained that, now that they had fallen, we were unequal to that competition. He could show to the House, by a series of details, that of the arrivals in the river since the beginning of the month, the proportion was as three, or at least as two, to one in favour of foreign shipping. So long as the British ship-owner was obliged to pay 3
l.
s.
s.,
d.
d.,
1199
Mr. Rumbold
said, that he wished to bring under the notice of the House certain duties affecting our shipping, which, though they were of small account when considered separately, became of some importance when considered collectively. He concurred with the hon. member for Coventry that what was wanted to enable the British to compete with the foreign ship-owner was a reduction of taxation. He held in his hand a statement of the charges which had been paid by a small vessel of 71 tons, on her voyage from London to Petersburgh. The fees for pilotage were 10
l.,
l.
s.
l.,
l.
Mr. Hume
was of opinion, that the country could not congratulate itself at present upon the state of the shipping interests. He thought that if the right hon. gentleman would leave out of his calculation the increase of our shipping which had taken place last year, in consequence of the speculations which then were so prevalent, he would not find that there was any just ground for exultation in the
1200
1201
Mr. C. Grant
declared his intention of not trespassing long, at that hour of the night, on the attention of the House; indeed, he could have wished that hon. gentlemen, instead of rushing wildly into this discussion, had waited until they had seen the papers printed which his right hon. friend had presented. They would then have avoided many errors into which they had now almost unavoidably fallen. The hon. gentleman who had just sat down had told the House, that his right hon. friend had deceived himself in the view which he had taken of the shipping interest. To that observation he would merely reply, that the printing of the papers would best decide whether his right hon. friend or the hon. member for Aberdeen were correct m the view they had taken of the subject. The great object which his right hon. friend wished to accomplish by his statement of that night was, to prove to the nation, that the complaints made against them out of doors were utterly unfounded, and that the measures which he had introduced had not had any effect in diminishing the commercial marine of the country, but on the contrary had considerably increased it. If, at the same time that our commercial marine had increased, our
1202
The several motions were then put and agreed to.
1203
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, May 17 1826.
CORN IMPORTATION BILL.
On the order of the day for bringing up there-port of this bill,
Sir T. Lethbridge
said, he did not object to the report being brought up, but he rose to take the last opportunity of saying one word against the measure. He should not give any opposition to it in its present stage, because such opposition would be useless and vexatious. He submitted to the superior wisdom of his majesty's government backed by a large respectable and powerful majority in the House; and he could not disguise from his view, that the measure had also been supported elsewhere in a manner equally strong, and equally setting at nought any thing like opposition. He should for these reasons feel exceedingly blameable in his own estimation, if he attempted to give one moment's further opposition. He considered, however, that all his majesty's ministers had given a pledge that nothing that had been done in consequence of the present exigency would prevent this or the other branch of the legislature from entertaining any measure for the general adjustment of the Corn-laws—that nothing which might now be passed into a law as to the mode of opening the ports, or as to fixing duties, should prejudice the general question when that was brought before the House. He took that opportunity of entering his protest against any thing of the sort being drawn into a precedent; and he did this in spite of all the intimidations he had received from quarters which he despised from the very bottom of his heart, and which intimidations he knew had been sent to him in order to stop the honest expression of his opinions, which he had presumed to utter in the discharge of the duty which he owed to the country at large. No degree of intimidation, however gross, personal, or dangerous it might be, should ever deter him from the discharge of his conscientious duty. He was, therefore, the more earnest in entering this solemn protest, from his having been personally insulted by individuals, whose menaces he had treated with the most profound contempt. He therefore hoped the government would recollect that they had given such a pledge, and as the parliament had thrown the responsibility on them, he trusted they would use their
1204
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that in consequence of what had fallen from the hon. baronet, he had no hesitation in saying, upon the subject of the pledge which the hon. baronet had understood his majesty's government to have given, as to the mode in which the proceedings of this year might operate on the decision of the House in the next, that he could assure the hon. baronet he thought it would be the shabbiest course any government could by possibility adopt, if they were to depart one iota from the pledge they had given, and which he was quite ready to repeat; namely, that the decision the House came to on this occasion as to this measure, ought not, and could not, be taken to prejudge, in any way, the fair discussion of the main question, whenever it should be brought under consideration. With respect to what the hon. baronet had said of intimidations applied to him, he was sure it was quite consistent with the hon. baronet's character, to treat such intimidations with the contempt they deserved.
Mr. H. Sumner
said, he concurred in the general measures of his majesty's government, because he considered them characterised by wisdom and candour; but the present measure he considered unwise and uncalled for, and he regretted he had not pushed his opposition to it still further, in order that the county which he had the honour to represent, might have had an opportunity of petitioning the House on the subject. A meeting was, in fact, held for that purpose on Saturday, but, in consequence of the bill having passed through the committee, their object had been defeated.
Sir R. Heron
considered that the present measures could do no harm, because they would be inoperative. One of the evil consequences flowing from these discussions, was to generate a belief that the interests of the agriculturists and the manufacturers were opposed; whereas, in fact, they were one and the same. If he yielded his consent to the bringing up the report now, it was certainly most reluctantly. The landed gentlemen would have consulted their own interests by having opposed the measure in every, stage; and if he saw any encouragement, he would divide the House now.
1205
The report was then brought up, and the resolutions agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, May 18 1826.
COURT OF CHANCERY.
The Attorney-General
rose, in pursuance of a notice which he had given on a former night, for the purpose of moving for leave to bring in a bill to carry into effect the measures recommended in the Report of a Committee of Inquiry into the Practice of the Court of Chancery. He should premise that it was not as a member of that commission that he now rose: the duty of bringing forward the bill he was prepared with, had devolved upon him, merely in consequence of his professional situation. The House, however, must be aware, that it would be necessary for him —after the various allusions which had been made by members to this subject, and the various debates which had occurred upon it—to enter at some length into the consideration of the manner in which the commissioners in question had performed their duty; the particular facts to which they had directed their attention; and the nature of the measures (the general measures, he meant) which they had recommended in their report, for the adoption of parliament. The House would also feel, that in detailing those measures, he must of necessity be led into much detail—perhaps of a dry and uninteresting nature, if considered by itself—but if honourable gentlemen considered that that detail was connected with one of the very highest judicial establishments in this kingdom—an establishment involving so much of the property, and so many of the interests of the whole community—he was persuaded that they would bear with him for a time, however dry such a detail might prove. Many observations had, at different times, been made, in that House, as well as out of it, upon the constitution of the commission to which he was now referring. It had even been said, by one individual, that nothing good could reasonably be expected from a commission which was composed of such parties as this. Indeed, in that House it had been affirmed, for he had heard it, that it was perfectly ridiculous to anticipate any good result from a commission so constituted. If, in an inquiry into the proceedings of an establishment thus closely affecting many
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Mr. John Williams
said, it had never been his intention to anticipate the motion of the attorney-general, and by several postponements, not unsuitable to the topic of discussion, he had shown that, he was willing to concede precedence to the clear and luminous statement just delivered. Through that statement he should not follow the hon. and learned gentleman; but he could not avoid observing, in the outset, that although his hon. and learned friend had taken a wide range over the report of the commissioners, he had omitted all explanation of the immediate object of the bill. For any thing that appeared to the contrary, the reforms to which he had alluded, these exploded and ridiculous errors, these continued abuses, the bare statement of which excited ridicule and contempt, might have been amended by a simple order of the court. The lord Chancellor, the court of Chancery, and the Commissioners, would, no doubt, by themselves, or by some representative of the whole body, return most hearty thanks to the attorney-general for the gorgeous panegyric which he had bestowed upon them. He (Mr. Williams) would, however, show what they had done, and what they had omitted to do; and then it would appear how far they had ascertained whether the courts of equity, as at present constituted, were capable of administering justice, in the manner in which it ought to be administered. The attorney-general had said, that the delays which had been so much clamoured about, were fancied grievances, and had no real existence; yet he trusted he should be able to show that those grievances were not fanciful, and that the commissioners had not done enough to silence the clamour that was raised all over the country against the practices which prevailed in the courts of equity. Still he hoped the report would do some good; and when good was done, no matter from what quarter it came. The people now did not look to the individual who did an act, but to the act done; and they were ready to give their just applause to any individual for the good he had done. Whatever good this report might do, it was all to be ascribed to an eminent individual, who really monopolized all the merit of the act. The credit of originating this inquiry was wholly due
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The Solicitor-General
contended, that the commissioners had done their duty in the report which had been made to his majesty, and laid upon the table of that House. He could, as one of those commissioners, bear testimony to the diligence with which his colleagues had applied themselves to the subjects referred to their consideration, and had discharged the important trust reposed in their skill and judgment. So persuaded was he that they had performed that duty con-
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Mr. M. A. Taylor
said, that as many other gentlemen were desirous of delivering their sentiments on this subject, he should not have presented himself to the House on this occasion, but, from the line of conduct which he had so frequently followed with regard to these matters at former periods, if he remained silent now, it would have been imagined that he entirely approved of the report of the commissioners. He would admit that that report did possess some merit; but he could not avoid thinking that it had fallen far short of the object which it ought to have effected, and that it had left very much undone which it ought to have performed. That the commissioners had diligently investigated and examined into the subject, he would not deny. But, was that all which they ought to have done? He wished the House to look to the evidence of Mr. Shadwell, a most able Chancery barrister. When this gentleman was asked by the commissioners, whether he considered the judges of the court competent to get through the business of it, his reply was, that he was persuaded three angels could not do it. Yet the commissioners had entirely passed this matter over. They ought to have recommended the separation of the bankruptcy business from the great seal. He was well aware, however, that lord Eldon would rather part with his life than permit this separation to take place. He himself had had repeated conversations with the noble lord on this subject, and had sat on two committees relating to it. The opinions of these committees had been nearly unanimous. Sir Samuel Romilly, indeed, had doubted; but still, even he had said, that some measure ought to be adopted, to relieve the chancellor from the weight of the bankruptcy business. Besides, did the chancellor perform the bankruptcy business, except in the cases
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Mr. Secretary Peel
wished to say a few words on this question, but the moderate tone in which it had been discussed, and the considerate forbearance which had been evinced by the hon. and learned
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Dr. Lushington
said, that any gentleman who considered the complexity of the subject which had been referred to the commissioners, could never have expected that they would give their unanimous support to 187 propositions, promoting great and important changes in a system which had now been pursued for more than a hundred and fifty years. It was more extraordinary that so many of them could conscientiously put their seal to such a report as they had presented, than that some of them should have differed from their colleagues on its details. Against this report it had been urged, that though the reforms which it recommended were beneficial, still they were ineffectual in destroying the delay so much complained of in the court of Chancery. It was likewise objected to the commissioners, that they had omitted to consider many important subjects, and particularly two, which, if they really had omitted to consider, they would have been guilty of a most pusillanimous dereliction of their duty. It had been said, that they had not dared to inquire whether any and what delay took place between the setting down of the cause and the hearing, and then between the final hearing and the judgment of the chancellor. Those points came within the direct terms of the commission; and, if the commissioners had shrunk from their investigation, they would have left unexamined the most important points on which they were directed to inquire. Now, he had to inform the House, that of the mass of evidence taken by the commissioners, part was still unprinted, and that part which would have proved beyond all dispute that they had attempted to elucidate these two points. The reason why it was not printed was, that it was given at the latter part of the inquiry—that it consisted principally of documents,—that those documents were only produced at the conclusion of the sittings, and that it had been found impossible as yet to get them into type. He would state the heads of those documents, and would then leave the House to judge-first, whether the commissioners had done their duty in inquiring; and secondly, whether the lord chancellor had done his duty with regard to the judgments he had given within the last three years. There was the cause-paper of the lord chancellor
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Mr. Brougham
said, that as he was quite ready to agree, that it would be better to allow the bills proposed by his learned friend to be printed and considered before they pronounced an opinion upon this subject, and as he was aware that they would have many other and better opportunities of investigating every thing connected with the question in detail, he would not have trespassed on the time of the House, by any observations, had it not been that he could not allow the impression respecting the report of the commissioners, contained in the two last speeches addressed to them, to go forth to the world without some kind of contradiction or explanation. The effect of those speeches would be indeed to propagate a delusion which he was most anxious to avoid. He wished to avoid any thing like personal reflection in speaking upon the court of Chancery, and he agreed in so far most readily with his hon. and learned friend, the member for Lincoln, that in such matters they should look upon every thing rather as a subject of general discussion than individual reflection. With such a feeling he would argue the case; and he thought he could not commence better, or lead to a better understanding of the course he meant to pursue, than to quote an extract from a work, which he understood to be the production of a noble and learned lord, of high reputation. In it he says, that it was advisable to work as much as possible prospectively, because the remedies which were to be provided, were to benefit hereafter; and it was their duty to look rather to what could be done for the future, than to complain of the past, yet it was necessary still to examine affairs a little retrospectively, that they might not, in their proceedings, impute blame to individuals, for committing evils which were inherent in the system, and which individual exertions could not remedy or avoid. In attending to the course here laid down, he did not apprehend that he could be supposed to touch upon any thing personally offensive or contrary to his disposition to avoid allusion to the conduct of the noble person who presided over the court. He would not, therefore, say, that the commissioners slumbered over certain matters subjected to their consideration any more than he would say that the lord chancellor had slumbered in abstaining for the five and twenty years he had presided over the court to adopt
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Mr. R. Smith
said, that as a member of the commission, he begged to disclaim any intention of inquiring into or scrutinizing the conduct of the lord chancellor. If such a power had been imposed upon the commission, he would have objected to it as unconstitutional; for it would have subjected him and the commission to the necessity of deciding upon ex parte evidence against the lord chancellor; or to the alternative, equally objectionable, of deciding upon the testimony of the lord chancellor, in reply to the criminatory evidence adduced against him. However, it was no part of the
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Mr. Denman
could not concur with the hon. gentleman who spoke last, that there was any thing unconstitutional in scrutinizing and inquiring into the conduct of the lord chancellor. Nay, he even thought it the most important and necessary part of their duty; for they were appointed to inquire into the causes of the delay and expenses attending suits in the court of Chancery. If these suits were occasioned in any degree by the conduct of the judge presiding in that court, it was their duty to report it to the House. It was alleged, that those delays materially and principally occurred in consequence of delays which, by the efficient discharge of his duty, the lord chancellor might have prevented. If such were the fact, it ought to have been stated in the report. That there was sufficient ground for entertaining this opinion, would be found by the evidence of Mr. Hamilton, an extract from which he would read, shewing a comparison of the delays which cases met with in the respective courts of the lord chancellor, the vice-chancellor, and the master of the Rolls. The evidence met with some interruption, he believed, by some master in Chancery. The extract was to the following effect:—
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The Solicitor-General
intimated, across the table, that he had not been present at any part of the examination of Mr. Hamilton. Had he been present, he should not have been disposed to permit some things which that witness volunteered in evidence.
Mr. Denman
said, he was sure Mr. Hamilton was incapable of saying any thing untrue, or of resorting to any discreditable trick. The passage which he had read from his evidence was one, in his opinion, which satisfactorily shewed, that the character of the lord chancellor, for despatch, was not so clearly established as his right hon. friend would induce the House to believe. The mem-
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Mr. Tyndal
defended the conduct of the commissioners; nine hundred and ten pages of whose report had already appeared, and nine hundred and ten more were on their way—a pretty considerable report, he thought. The question for consideration was, whether what the commissioners had done was not sufficient to remove the existing arrear of causes, and to prevent the accumulation of causes in future. In looking to this part of the case, they must observe that, in 1822, the arrear of causes was one hundred and five, and that in 1826, the arrear amounted to one hundred and nine, making an increase of no more than four causes in four years. There was reasonable ground to believe, therefore, that the measures proposed by
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Mr. Abercromby
thought, that the report of the commissioners would, if acted upon, have the effect of giving more business to the minor courts, and, of course, of increasing the number of appeals to the lord chancellor. With respect to that noble lord, he thought, and he assured the House that he spoke sincerely, that his lordship was placed in a most awkward and difficult situation. Insinuations had been thrown out that the causes of delay between final hearing and decision had been touched upon by the commissioners, and that the inquiry was found to be by no means satisfactory. He meant to give no opinion as to whether this inquiry ought, or ought not, to be gone into; but he was sure that every friend of the noble lord had to regret that the matter was left in this undecided and unsatisfactory state.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 19 1826.
HIGH CONSTABLE OF WESTMINSTER.
The resolutions upon the Sessional Addresses being reported,
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, he could not permit them to be disposed of without making an observation upon a paper which had been pretty generally circulated amongst the members. He meant a representation of the circumstances in which Mr. Lee, the high constable of Westminster, was placed, from his being constantly in attendance upon the House, during the whole time of their sitting, without receiving any salary or remuneration whatever. The case of this individual had been brought before them some years ago; and opposed by the hon. member for Corfe Castle, upon the ground that the office had been purchased from the dean and chapter, and possessed many advantages. It was not, however, consistent with the dignity of that House, or accordant with the principles of right and justice, that they should continue to receive the services of Mr. Lee without any compensation for the loss of his time and the neglect of his business.
Mr. M. A. Taylor
recommended the claim of Mr. Lee to the consideration of the House.
GREEK CAUSE.
Sir R. H. Inglis
rose to present a petition from White
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Mr. W. Smith
envied the feelings of his hon. friend in presenting such a petition. He heartily wished that there could be an expression of public sentiment throughout the country upon this Subject, which might convince the world that we
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Sir R. Wilson
said, that the time was now come when some step ought to be taken by England, in order to save a Christian people from extermination. The cruel and inhuman manner in which the Turks carried on the war against the Greeks was evident from this circumstance—that the Greeks preferred sacrificing themselves along with their wives and children to submitting to the degrading captivity which they must suffer if they fell into the hands of the Turks. He was sorry to say, that notwithstanding the heroic resolution with which many Greeks had freed themselves by death from the degrading brutalities of their captors, some of them had been exposed for sale ac the price of 50 and 100 dollars a head in the market at Alexandria. He lamented that French officers should have degraded themselves and their country by entering into the service of the Pacha of Egypt, and by fighting against the Greeks; but he lamented still more the impolitic law which prevented British subjects from embarking in the cause of Greece, and from showing their attachment to the sacred cause of freedom. He condemned the policy of the foreign enlistment bill, but praised the liberality with which ministers had exercised the powers it gave them.
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that the same delicacy which had hitherto closed the mouths of his hon. friends upon the subject of Greece, had also influenced him not to make any public appeal to ministers, the reply to which might embarrass the march of their policy towards that country. Judging from some words which had dropped from a noble lord, in another place, as well as from other circumstances, he had reason to believe that some measures on behalf of the Greeks were in the contemplation of government, and he was aware that any public declaration of their policy might be prejudicial to that sacred cause. With respect to the great blow which had been lately struck against the Greeks, it was to him, as it must be to every Englishman, a subject of the deepest regret; but he could not say that he despaired from that circumstance, of the fortunes of that heroic people. Missolonghi had certainly fallen; but it was not the last hold of the Greeks, for
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Ordered to lie on the table.
PROTESTANT WORSHIP IN ROMAN CATHOLIC STATES.
Sir R. H. Inglis
rose to move for information, to the production of which he understood the right hon. gentleman the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs had no objection, and to which, he trusted the House would have as little objection. He would not, therefore, detain the House further than by stating the object of it, namely, to obtain through his majesty's ministers and consuls in those countries in which the Roman Catholic religion is dominant, information
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Mr. Canning
thought that the hon. baronet should have given notice of his intention to make such a motion. If such a return should be ordered, he should feel it necessary to move for a similar return of the rights enjoyed by Catholics in Protestant countries under similar circumstances.
Sir R. Inglis
observed, that he did not conceive that any objection could have been made to this proposition, as it was only a sequel to several motions made ten or twelve years ago for the purpose of obtaining information relative to the Catholic religion.
Mr. Denman
said, that the motion which the hon. baronet had so unexpectedly brought forward, was one of a novel, and unprecedented description. It was a motion which called upon our different consuls to exercise duties which had never been supposed to belong to their office, and which, if they did exercise, would give them a claim to additional emoluments from the country. From the extensive nature of the inquiry which the hon. baronet proposed to institute it was evident that they must peruse an enormous mass of legal documents, and wade through a great quantity of historical evidence, for which their previous habits might not have qualified them. Besides, the information which the hon. baronet wanted would, if obtained, only tend to raise a clamour in the country upon an argument that was totally false in itself, and which had never yet been incorporated with the discussion of the Catholic question. If the motion were good for any thing, it could only be for advocating some reciprocity of measures from the English government to its Catholic subjects, founded on the measures adopted by foreign Catholic governments to their Protestant subjects. Now, if the conduct of Roman Catholic governments had been most execrable in this respect, it was only a stronger argument for an enlightened government like that of England to give to its Catholic subjects those privileges which had been withheld by the bigotry of less intelligent governments. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would pause before he gave his sanction to this motion; at any rate, he hoped the House would pause before it allowed the policy of England to take its colour from that of
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The motion was then withdrawn.
CURRENCY AT THE CAPE OF GOOD
Mr. Baring
rose to present a petition from lieut. col. Bird complaining of the changes occasioned in the currency of the Cape of Good Hope by large issues of paper-money by the colonial government. The hon. member entered into a description of the various changes which had been effected in the currency of that colony by the Dutch governors, whilst it was in the possession of the United Provinces. By the proclamation of sir David Baird the value of the rix-dollar, which formed the currency of the Cape, had been fixed at 4
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
agreed that the subject of the petition was an important one. The charge which the hon. gentleman had made against the government was so serious, that it required a full explanation of all the circumstances of the case, which could not be entered into at that moment. When the time should serve, he should be ready
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Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, he wished to call the attention of the House to what he could not but consider a very great injustice. He meant, the situation of those persons who were creditors of the Orphan Chamber, at the time of the capture of the Cape.
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Dr. Lushington
said, it was not his hon. friend's fault that this petition had not been presented before, for application had been previously made by the petitioner, both to the under Secretary of State for the colonies, and to the Secretary of the Treasury, for compensation. This was a question of very great importance to the Cape of Good Hope; and he did trust that it would be considered with as much favour by his majesty's government as a similar case from another colony had been, some time ago, when earl Bathurst, with great consideration and humanity, referred the petitioners to the Privy Council, who rescinded that part of their former order under which the parties had been aggrieved. As to what the chancellor of the Exchequer had said about its not being obligatory on the government to pay the paper-money in circulation at the Cape, that was a declaration which he had heard with the utmost astonishment. He could not conceive it possible that the government could have issued, and received money for these notes, without holding themselves bound in common honesty to pay them. That, however, the right hon. gentleman seemed to look upon as a matter, not of right, but of grace and favour.
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Mr. Ellice
denied the doctrine of the Treasury, with respect to the analogy between the Cape currency and that of this country. The issue was made by an English governor, and the government obtained for their notes at from 2
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Mr. Herries
said, that the learned civilian had clearly misunderstood his right hon. friend, who had merely, as he understood him, intended to say that the paper issued at the Cape did not purport to be convertible into money: and this, any hon. gentleman who happened to possess a bank-note of the kind in question, would discover to be the case. The fact was, that paper had never been at par, except upon two occasions, when large portions of it were called in and paid off by the Dutch government, who immediately afterwards issued a larger; amount than that which they had cancelled. The object of the measures, the Operation of which was complained of by the petitioner, was to introduce British coinage into all the colonies, in lieu of the various descriptions of paper which at present circulated therein. In some cases the paper was that of a former government, issued previously to our possession of the colony; in some it had been so issued under circumstances of great embarrassment, in others the absurdity had been resorted to of striking out a large hole in the centre of a Spanish dollar, and then it was declared by proclamation, that the piece so deteriorated in value should pass for one shilling more than it would have done if it had been entire. It must be evident from these facts, that the measure determined on by government was not only a proper but a necessary one. It was an act of justice to the colony to substitute a metallic currency in lieu of a paper one subject to such ruinous fluctuations. The Treasury had, previously to enforcing the introduction of the metallic currency, bestowed great pains in considering on the manner in which the clause should be brought about so as to produce the least possible inconvenience to the colonies. If government were called upon to pay 4
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Mr. Baring
said, he did not think the hon. member had seen the essential points of the complaint. He agreed generally as to the policy of establishing a metallic currency in the colony; but such a step ought to have been preceded by a measure something similar to what might be termed an equitable adjustment; but though he thought the establishment of a metallic currency a correct proceeding, he considered government wrong in taking the extreme end of the line to fix the value of the rix-dollar. It fluctuated from 1
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Mr. H. Gurney
asked, whether he was to understand, from the hon. gentleman, that the creditors, previous to the capitulation, were to be paid at the rate of 1
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Ordered to lie on the table.
GOVERNMENT RELIEF TO THE DISTRESSED
Lord Milton
said, he would take that opportunity of requesting an answer to the question which he had, on a former night, put to the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, as to whether it was the intention of government to propose any grant for the Relief of the Distressed Manufacturers. He repeated his question then, as he feared he should not on that evening have the legitimate opportunity of ascertaining the intention of the government through the motion of the hon. member for Coventry, which he supposed would not come on. He considered that the calamities under which the manufacturing districts were labouring were of a nature to justify the interference of parliament.
Mr. Secretary Canning
observed, that
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STATE OF SLAVERY IN THE COLONIES.
Mr. Brougham
rose to bring forward his motion. He first desired, that the following resolutions of the House,-agreed to on May 15th, 1823, should be read:—
Mr. Brougham
then observed, that at the time the resolutions which had been just read were adopted by the House, the only doubt which existed was, whether they went far enough in propounding measures, or recognizing the necessity of measures for carrying into effect the scheme of policy which the almost unanimous opinion and sentiments of the country suggested, or offered to the House; but all men agreed, and declared by their votes upon that occasion, that this was the least measure of justice that ought to be meted out to the body of the people in the colonies. His majesty's government proceeded, after these resolutions were passed, to take steps for the purpose of recommending to the colonial legislatures in certain colonies, the adoption of measures calculated to effect the object in view, and other steps were taken, calculated to carry these principles into effect in the colonies not subject to the legislative power. It should be his object on the present occasion to call the attention of the House to the manner in which the suggestion of the king's government had
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Mr. Wilmot Horton
rose and said:—Mr. Speaker; after the very long details into which the hon. and learned gentleman has felt it necessary in the discharge of his public duty to enter, I feel satisfied that the House will indulge me in a patient hearing of those statements which my duty equally requires me to make, not, perhaps, in general contradiction to the hon. and learned gentleman, with respect to some of the details to which he has at such length adverted, but for the purpose of placing the subject in a very different point of view from that in which it has been exhibited by the hon. gentleman.
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1325
Mr. Brougham
said, he had no intention of charging the hon. member with being a partisan, in the sense in which he seemed to have understood the word. All he meant to impute to the hon. member was,
1326
Dr. Lushington
said, that three years had now elapsed since the resolutions of that House had been passed, and the order in council issued, yet not a single colony had, up to the present day, taken one step towards adopting the principles recommended to them by parliament and the Crown. The House was, however, told to wait till another session, in the expectation that these colonial legislatures, which had hitherto done nothing, might at last manifest signs of repentance, and, in good earnest, begin to carry the wishes of government and the country into execution. How could they, however, expect that any mere declarations of their opinions would have any effect, when they found that persons of the highest character and the greatest power in this country actually, by their conduct and expressions, gave a countenance to the resistance which the colonists on all occasions offered to the measures of the abolitionists? If he was, indeed, to judge from what was said in another place, he might assert that even some of his majesty's ministers held sentiments different from those which others of the same ministry maintained in that House; and that the utterance of those sentiments confirmed the colonists in the opposition which had been the subject of complaint, and protracted the time when a final amelioration of the condition of the slaves could be effected. Not two months ago, these opinions had been made public; and lest they might suppose that there was any thing in the language or the circumstances which could possibly create a misconception, he would read the one and the other; and when they saw how different the language and the feeling of
1327
1328
1329
1330
1331
Mr. Bernal
said, that no man would be found to stand up as the bold, uncompromising advocate of slavery, to defend the same as an abstract principle; but, in making this admission, he must at the same time declare, that no arguments had been or could be advanced to justify the indiscreet haste with which some hon. members would proceed to the adoption of measures calculated to produce a very injurious effect upon the whole property vested in the West-Indian colonies. He, in common with the general body of planters, would be happy to follow that course of proceedings which would lead to any real amelioration of the condition of the negroes; but the same must be traced out slowly and cautiously, and, in order to produce certain and beneficial effects, must be undertaken with a due regard to the capability of the negroes for receiving those advantages which it might be proposed to confer on them.
1332
1333
1334
1335
1336
1337
1338
1339
1340
1341
Mr. C. R. Ellis
stated, that, having concurred in the unanimous vote by which the task of carrying into effect the resolutions passed by the House in 1823, was imposed upon his majesty's government; and not seeing any thing in the course pursued by them which was calculated in any degree to impair the confidence then reposed in them by the House; nor having heard from them any intimation of a wish to call for the intervention of parliament to aid them in the performance of that duty, he could not but consider the present motion as of the same character with those measures which, while their professed object was to strengthen the hands of government, were, in point of fact, as had been stated by his right hon. friend the Secretary of State for Foreign Affair, calculated only to embarrass the government in the execution of the already sufficiently difficult task which had been devolved upon them;—and, upon these general grounds, without going into any of the details of the question, he should have felt justified in refusing his assent to the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman. But as that hon. and learned gentleman had thought fit to comment at great length and with much severity upon the conduct of the colonial legislatures, though he (Mr. Ellis) would not at that late hour follow him into those details, nor tempt him to execute his threat of bringing forward that reserve of further details which he held in terrorem over the House, he trusted that the House, considering his connexion with the colonies, and the part which he had taken upon this question, would afford him their indulgence in offering some few observations upon the proceedings of those legislatures.
1342
1343
l
l
1344
l
1345
*
1346
1347
1348
1349
1350
1351
1352
Mr. Butterworth
spoke for some time; but the cries of "question," and the loud coughing which prevailed, prevented our hearing more than that the hon. member was of opinion that, although all persons must rejoice that a church establishment had been sent out to the West-Indies, it would prove of no use, unless missionary exertions were also encouraged.
Mr. Denman
rose amidst loud calls for a divison. He began by saying, that if it was the wish of the House that the debate should there stop, he would instantly sit down, but he hoped, nay, he entreated, that at the close of the labours of the session, when perhaps those hon. gentlemen whom he saw around him, would meet together for the last time for business this parliament—they would not separate, leaving this most important question unfinished; or suffer it to be disposed otherwise than as having received the seal of the most solemn and impartial investigation. It was to him no small satisfaction that so patient and attentive a hearing had been already given to the two gentlemen most closely connected with the colonies, and that they had been uninterrupted in the tenour of those arguments which their honour and their interests prompted them to advance as reasons why this resolution should not be adopted. The impress of impartiality,
1353
1354
1355
1356
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose and addressed the House to the following effect:—
1357
1358
1359
1360
1361
1362
1363
bona fide
"To keep the word of promise to the ear, And break it to the hope;"
1364
directly
This
way out of
escape,
1365
Sir T. Ackland
rose, and said he wished to leave the question entirely in the hands of government, and would therefore move, as an amendment, the previous question.
Mr. Canning,
as we understood, said he had intended to conclude with making that amendment himself.
Mr. Brougham
then replied. He maintained, that slavery had existed, not in accordance with the principles of the British constitution, but in spite of them. So it was with respect to the Christian religion. Could any man deny that it was most unchristian to hold a fellow being in slavery—to treat him as a brute beast, and, at the instigation of capricious cruelty or sordid avarice, to tear the very flesh from his bones? Such a system was essentially repugnant to Christianity, and could, by no process of sophistry, be reconciled with its mild and benignant spirit. The right hon. Secretary had represented
1366
The House then divided: For Mr. Brougham's resolution 38; Against it 100: Majority 62.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, May 23 1826.
CORN LAWS.
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that in proposing the second reading of the bill now before their lordships, it would be unnecessary for him to trespass at any length upon their patience, and the more so, as in the debate anticipating the present motion, he had so fully stated the motives which governed, and the obs jects which were expected to be realized by his majesty's government. He would, therefore patiently hear any observations which noble lords might think proper to offer, and he trusted to their indulgence to allow him to make such remarks as those observations might call for. He had already put their lordships in possession of the motives which induced him, at that period of the session, to call their attention to this subject; and he would now only address to them a very few words indeed. Here, however, he begged to repeat, what he had so often stated before, that the two bills now before their lordships had no reference whatever to the general question of the Corn-laws. That question he considered to be entirely open for discussion, and whether any alteration in the general system of these laws would be advisable or not was a point in no degree whatsoever affected by the bills now before their lordships. Under special circumstances, he considered these temporary measures to be necessary; although he knew that, in certain quarters, considerable apprehensions were entertained as to the nature of their operation. Despite of that, however, he had the satisfaction of believing, that, with respect to the first bill which he had the honour of proposing (and which, in point of principle, might be considered the most ob-
1367
s.
s.
s.
1368
1369
1370
The Earl of Malmesbury
said, he might appear singular in expressing his opinion that a partial and gradual admission of the corn at present in bond was not objectionable, and that, with reference to the state of the country, the operation of the measure would bear a strong resemblance to the safety valve of a steam engine. The measure was not, however, called for by any alarming rise in the price of corn. Last year, the average price of wheat was 68
s.
s.
1371
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
1372
s.
l.
1373
The Lord Chancellor
said, he should not consider himself justifiable, holding the responsible situation which he held in his majesty's government, if he did not distinctly state it to be his opinion, that no measure could be more open to blame, than one calculated deeply to affect the agricultural interest. He was firmly convinced that every other interest which went to the constitution of the country, that the manufacturing, the commercial, the professional interests, rested so strongly on the agricultural interest, that parliament would do infinite mischief to every rank and class in the community, if they did not carefully foster the interests of agriculture. But he could by no means look on the measures under consideration as correctly represented, when they were described as affecting, or leading to any important change in, the system of laws which governed our trade in corn. With respect to the measure for liberating bonded corn, that seemed to meet with little or no objection; and he should, therefore, dismiss it without remark. But the other and more important measure, to which considerable objection was made, seemed to him to be so founded on constitutional principles, that he hoped their lordships would allow him to say a few words respecting it. No man could feel more strongly than he did the inexpediency, on the part of his majesty's government, of committing any act of power against the law. Yet, sure he was, that circumstances might arise, in which it would be absolutely necessary, for the salvation of the country, that his majesty's government should commit an act of power against the law; provided always that they were warranted by necessity in so doing. In fact, the constitutional doctrine seemed to him to be this; if a case could be foreseen in which it would be necessary to commit an act of power in violation of the law, it was their duty to remove the objectionable part of that act by divesting it of its illegality. But even that proposition ought to be limited: for his majesty's government ought, in no case, to apply for such a measure in advance, if it was probable that more mischief would result to the public from the
1374
1375
Earl Grey
observed, that the noble and learned lord had stated very properly the grounds on which he supported the proposed measure. He had as much jealousy as the learned lord of an act of power on the part of the Crown, in violation of the law; but he was well aware, that if, under certain circumstances, such an act were not resorted to, the public safety might be endangered. He fully subscribed, therefore, to the principle which had been laid down by the learned lord. But, the question to consider was, how far that principle supported and justified the present proposition; and, after listening to the learned lord with all the attention to which he was entitled, he must say that the learned lord had failed to convince him, that the measures in question was susceptible of the defence which had been set up for them. The learned lord had justly called this measure an act of indemnity in advance; and had added, that where a necessity could be foreseen, in which his majesty's government would be compelled, by a sense of public duty, to do an act in violation of the law, it was better to provide them with this previous indemnity, than to wait for indemnity until after the act had been done. If he agreed with the learned lord in this opinion, it must be with some qualification. He admitted, that if such a necessity could be foreseen, it might be right for parliament previously to arm his majesty's ministers with the power of acting under that necessity, in the same manner as they would be justified in acting, were the power not granted them. But then the necessity must be clearly proved. The circumstances must be of so striking and extraordinary a nature, as not only to justify the legislature for taking such a step, but to make it criminal in them not to take it. Now, he asked their lordships, was that the case in the present instance? When did the necessity of which his majesty's ministers now spoke arise? Did it exist on the 18th of April, when a motion was made in another place respecting the Corn-laws, and when his majesty's mi-
1376
1377
1378
1379
l.,
s.
1380
1381
The Earl of Harrowby
said, that the price of 80
s.
s.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
1382
s,
1383
1384
s.,
s.
s.
s.
s.
1385
The Earl of Lauderdale
said, he felt it necessary to deliver his opinion on the two measures which had been brought forward by his majesty's ministers. He must in the outset say, that the speech of his noble friend behind him had given him the greatest satisfaction. A speech of greater power, of more justness of argument, or more deliberate calmness of reasoning, he had never heard in the course of a public discussion; but, though he was sensible of the effect which that speech would have on their lordships, yet he felt too much interest in this question to give a silent vote on the present occasion. Before he proceeded to investigate the subject, he requested, that the two first paragraphs of his majesty's speech on the 3rd of February, 1825, should be read.—The paragraphs were accordingly read as follows:—"My lords and gentlemen,—We are commanded by his majesty to express to you the gratification which his majesty derives from the continuance and progressive increase of that public prosperity upon which his majesty congratulated you at the opening of the last session of parliament. There never was a period in the history of this country when all the great interests of the nation were at the same time in so thriving a condition, or when a feeling of content and satisfaction was more widely diffused through all classes of the British people."—Here there was a most flattering picture of the prosperity of the country; and yet, wheat was actually 6
s.
d.
1386
s.
s.
s.
1387
s.
1388
1389
s.,
s.
s.
l.
s.
l.
s.
l.
s.
d.,
1390
l.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
l.
s.
l.
s.
l.
s.,
s.
d.
l.
s
d.
l.
s.
1391
The Earl of Liverpool
said, he felt it necessary to say a few words in answer to some part of the noble earl's speech. At the same time, he did not feel it necessary to touch upon many of the arguments of the noble earl, which, though they involved considerations of great importance,
1392
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
s.
1393
s.
s.
s.
s.,
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
1394
s.
s.,
s.,
1395
The Earl of Limerick
said he did not think that any necessity had been shown for the adoption of the measure. On the contrary, he considered it pregnant with mischief. He knew that it had excited great alarm in this country. In Ireland it had created the greatest confusion. He held in his hand, a letter from a gentleman, upon whose assertion he could rely, stating that a friend of his had a quantity of corn coming from Dantzic, the prime cost of which was 20
s.
s.
1396
Lord King
said, he would do the noble earl, at the head of the government, the justice to say, that that noble earl had made a stout defence in a bad cause. He had no doubt that that noble earl, with many others, would, in the next year, make a defence in the last ditch; but he trusted that such opposition would not induce parliament to stand in the gap between prosperity and a starving population. He congratulated the noble earl upon his success over his domestic enemies; and the noble earl, having set his House in order, might next year, with the certainty of success, proceed to the discussion of the Corn-laws. There were only two ways in which the proposed relief could be afforded to the manufacturing population. One was, by passing the bill now before their lordships, and the other, by his majesty's ministers acting upon their own responsibility in case of emergency. He preferred the mode adopted by his majesty's ministers, and he did so because it held out to the population the positive assurance that government would, if necessary, give them relief; whereas, if such a measure had not been brought forward, the manufacturing population would have been left in doubt as to the intentions of government. He knew many noble lords who were averse to free trade—many who were averse to free air (of which there was not then much in that House)—and many who were averse to free conscience. He was a friend both to free air and to free trade; and he trusted that the God above would give free air, and that his majesty's ministers would give free trade. He also looked forward to a better state of things, when men would enjoy free conscience. Many noble lords were averse to free trade; and at the close of the last war, propositions had been made to exclude all raw produce. One said, exclude butter; another said, exclude corn; another said, exclude wool — that was the codex agrestis of the hon. member for Somerset, and Suffolk, who joined in the cry, that this country ought to be a nation of sellers, and not a nation of buyers; but those who maintained that doctrine, did not state how a nation could sell, without buying something in return from the nations to which they sold. A question had been asked, whether this country could produce sufficient corn for its own consumption? No doubt this country could. But then another question
1397
The Marquis of Salisbury
said, he had voted upon the former occasion against the appointment of a committee; but, in
1398
The Earl of Carnarvon
observed, that, although there might be no great objection to the taking out the bonded corn, yet, if this measure was to be repeated, a temptation would be held out to the corn factors to overload the warehouses with foreign corn; and it would be injustice and ruin to them to refuse admission to it. Since the commencement of the present session, the measures of ministers had been calculated to prolong the distress of the country. The distress was, in fact, owing to the imbecile, wavering, and changeful measures of the government. None of those measures had been adapted to remedy the evils they professed to provide for. In consequence of this, the dissolution of parliament was looked to without regret by the country. It was his opinion, that the Corn-laws should be inquired into at once, and established on a solid foundation. For want of this, the country, during the intermission of parliament, would be left in a state of confusion. The speech of the noble earl opposite had been filled with false logic and panegyrics on ministers; at the same time that it was not very complimentary to the House, and held out a sort of threat. But, notwithstanding the taunts and threats of the noble earl, he hoped their lordships would do their duty, not from a sense of interest, as landed proprietors, but out of regard to the country. He objected to the measures before the House, because they were alike foolish and michievous.
1399
Lord Redesdale
objected to the measure, because the object of it was to impose a tax exclusively upon the agriculturist, for the relief of the manufacturer. He should have no objection to a general tax for that purpose; but he must protest against this partial tax. It was like stealing leather to make poor men's shoes. To ruin the agriculturists for the benefit of the manufacturers, would be to injure both classes, without relieving either. The first care in every country was the agriculture of it; from its agriculture its population arose—and from its population arose its manufactures. Thus, in the United States of America, where the agriculture was not restricted, the manufacturing classes were not numerous; yet those states were increasing in strength. And for what reason? Because their agriculture was encouraged. To cause distress among the agriculturists, such as had existed sometime ago, when the importation of corn had ruined more than half the farmers, could not be beneficial to the manufacturers. Yet the present measures were calculated to cause the diminution of the capital of the agriculturists—a diminution which would be felt, as well in the production of meat, as an article of food, as in the growth of corn. Their lordships were bound, therefore, to give protection to the cultivation of corn. Looking upon the subject in another point of view, he would ask, if some check ought not to be formed against the superabundant increase of the manufacturing classes? What caused the great distress prevailing in Ireland, a country blessed with fertility of the most extraordinary kind? The want of capital to carry on its agriculture. If, therefore, the capital of the agriculturists was reduced in this country, the injury to the manufacturers would be great in the extreme. What was the cause of the late agricultural distress? Nothing but importation, which had ruined many farmers, and in the county of Dorset had caused prices to fall one half. If there was any difficulty in this country supplying itself, it was entirely owing to importation. He had lately conversed with a gentleman who had made inquiries in different parts of the country, as to the means which farmers possessed of paying their rents. From this gentleman he learned, that out of two hundred capital farms not more than ten were fully stocked, and that one hundred were only half stocked. This
1400
The Earl of Darnley
said, that the discussion had run, very unnecessarily, in his opinion, into the general question of the Corn-laws. Whenever that question came regularly before the House, and it could not, he thought, be longer delayed than the next session, the agricultural interest must make up their minds to considerable alterations. The system of prohibition must be relinquished entirely, and open ports, under a protecting duty, be established. He meant such a protecting duty as would be sufficient to place the grower of corn in this country, laden as it was with taxation, upon a footing of equality with countries less pressed upon by the demands for establishments, and the payment of interest on so large a national debt. He did not think that there was much probability of ministers taking upon themselves the responsibility of the measure for allowing the further importation of corn; as, unless there was a total failure of our harvest, of which at present there was no appearance, the provisions of that bill would be altogether inoperative. But, as it might do some
1401
The Earl of Malmesbury
said, he should not have again troubled their lordships had it not been for an observation which fell from the noble earl at the head of his majesty's government; namely, that these measures would have passed over with silence, unless for the opposition in that House. The opposition arose, on his part, from a wish to discharge his duty as a peer of the realm. He well knew what he had to contend against. Two great influences were opposed to him, but neither the "civium ardor prava jubentium," nor the "vultus instantis tyranni" should ever prevent him from expressing his sentiments. The noble earl was too good a scholar not to know that the last word did not mean tyrant solely, but any other person possessing power. It was true that he regarded his interests as involved in the question of the Corn-laws; and as such he was interested in the subject; but it did not therefore follow that he was unable to consult the interests of the country at large.
The Duke of Somerset
opposed the motion, and wished an inquiry to take place into the subject of the Corn-laws generally.
The House divided upon the second reading of the Warehoused Corn bill. Contents 84; Not-contents 23: Majority 61. Another division took place upon the second reading of the Corn Importation Bill. Contents 78; Not-contents 28: Majority 50.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, May 26 1826.
BRIBERY AT ELECTIONS.
Lord John Russell
rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to bring forward certain resolutions framed for the purpose of repressing Bribery and Corruption at Elections. He had, he said, already brought the substance of these resolutions before the House; and as, on that occasion, the bill he introduced underwent a great deal of discussion, he should not think it necessary to enter at present into the same details which he had formerly stated. It might be remembered, that several objections were at first taken to that bill; and those he had endeavoured to obviate as much as possible in preparing his resolutions. Into the resolutions, in short, he had incorporated the matter of the ori-
1402
"1. That whenever a petition shall be presented to this House, after the expiration of the time allowed for presenting petitions against the validity of the return of any member of this House, by any person or persons, affirming that, at any time within eighteen calendar months previous to presenting the said petition, general bribery or corruption has been practised, for the purpose of procuring the election or return of any member or members to serve in parliament for any borough, cinque port, or place, and it shall appear to the said House, that such petition contains allegations sufficiently specific to require further investigation, this House will appoint a day and hour for taking the said petition into consideration,
1403
"2. That at the hour appointed by this House for taking such petition into consideration, this House will proceed to appoint a select committee to inquire into the truth of the matters contained in the said petition, and report the result of their inquiry to this House; and such select committee shall consist of thirteen members, to be chosen by lot, according to the directions, provisions, rules, and regulations, and subject to the exemptions for choosing forty-nine members by lot, contained in the various acts to regulate the trials of controverted elections, or returns of members to serve in parliament, so far as they are applicable thereto, and of two other members to be appointed by this House, out of the members then present in this House; and the thirteen members so chosen by lot, together with the two members to be so appointed by this House, shall be a select committee, and shall inquire into and try the matter of such petition, and shall report their opinion thereof, together with the evidence given before them, to this House.
"3. That this House will not appoint such select committee so long as any trial is pending before a select committee of this House to try the validity of the return, or so long as a day is named in the orders of this House for appointing a select committee to try the validity of the return, for the borough, cinque port, or place, to which the petition refers."
The first resolution being put,
Mr. Wynn
said, he did not, in the slightest degree, take any objection to the principles of the resolution, so far as it went to pledge the House to punish any gross case of bribery or corruption. He had always felt that it was the first duty of the House to proceed to remedy any abuses
1404
1405
Mr. W. Smith
said, that the noble lord's object was chiefly to extend the term of inquiry into cases of bribery beyond its present insufficient limit, and he should therefore support the motion.
Lord J. Russell
said, that there were certainly other modes than the one he proposed for correcting the practice of bribery; but, in spite of such modes, it was notorious that bribery was practised with impunity: it was therefore evident, that other remedies ought to be adopted. The resolutions did not pledge the House to any thing dangerous, for it would be in the option of any member hereafter to object to them. As to his bringing forward the motion in the next session of parliament, he was by no means certain of having the honour of sitting in the new parliament.
Mr. Secretary Peel
advocated the delay of the consideration of the resolutions until next session. The motion was one which was well worthy the consideration of the House; but it had not attracted a sufficient share of attention to enable members to vote with a due regard to all the bearings of the question. The Grenville act, though its operation was to be but temporary, had excited great discussion; and he did hope that less consideration would not be given to such an important measure as the present. Besides which, the resolutions were of so important a character, that full effect could not be given to them but by a legislative enactment, which could not take place till the next parliament. He did not consider the last day for business a fit moment to bring forward resolutions which were to bind future parliaments. He, therefore, trusted that the noble lord would not press his motion to a division.
Mr. Warre
said, that when his noble friend had come down to the House with a bill he was told that his object would be better answered by proposing a resolution, and now he proposed a resolution, he was told that his best course to pursue would be to bring in a bill. The existence of the most gross and criminal corruption was notorious and undenied; and it was known to be the practice of
1406
Mr. Wynn
observed, in explanation, that after a lapse of fourteen days from the return of a member, no petition could regularly be entertained, impeaching the validity of such a return; but still the House had the power of investigating any charge specifically alleging a corrupt distribution of money to the voters; and it was a charge which it would be incumbent on the House to enter into, as it involved a gross breach of privilege; and if it were to be made out to the satisfaction of the House, the House would consult its dignity by ordering the attorney-general to prosecute the offenders.
Lord Milton
said, there had been an impression throughout the House, that not only was the time for presenting an election petition limited, but that the limitation included all petitions which referred to the practices of bribery in boroughs. The bill brought in by his noble friend related, not to the removal of the sitting members, so much as to the general practice of bribery and corruption. He could not help thinking, that the conclusion of the session, and just before a general election, was precisely the period at which to pass such resolutions. If the motion was put off till next year, parties likely to be affected by these resolutions might say, that they had not received due notice
1407
Mr. Lockhart
was of opinion, that the words of the resolution were not sufficiently comprehensive, so as to reach every species of bribery. He referred to the practice of giving money to electors after the election was over.
Mr. Brougham
said, his hon. and learned friend did not pretend to deny, that giving money after elections, without any previous promise to that effect, was not within the bribery laws. Such a proceeding would certainly be an act of bribery, and it would, upon evidence, appear whether it was so far connected with the election as to affect the vote. He could not help thinking with the noble member for Yorkshire, that if the sanction of the House was given to these resolutions great good would be produced by them at the approaching general election. We were at this moment at a most delicate crisis. The machinery of corruption was already at work. Its sources were gathering; and the means were forging for carrying it into effect. At such a period the resolutions must be productive of much good. He called upon every hon. member, as he valued his own interest, to give his vote in favour of these resolutions, as the surest and most effectual means of preventing the engines of corruption from being turned against himself.
Mr. Hume
said, he had that day received a letter, in which it was stated, that a seat for a borough might be obtained, if the candidate was willing to spend 3,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, he should certainly vote for the previous question, he could not conceive any thing more impracticable and inconvenient, than the machinery recommended in the noble lord's resolutions; nor any thing less likely to effect the object he had in view. In the place of these resolutions, he would recommend the noble lord to take in hand the revision of the Bribery and Treating acts, which, as they at present stood, were
1408
Mr. Alderman Wood
was surprised at the most extraordinary assertion made by the hon. member for Newton. That bribery and payment for votes took place in many districts was very probable; but it was too bad to say that it existed in all. For himself, he could assure the hon. member, that he had been three times returned for the city of London, and that he never paid either in meal or in malt; nay, that he never expended a single shilling in coach-hire or otherwise towards his election. He had been frequently applied to by out-voters as to whether he would pay their expenses to town, but his uniform answer was, that he never paid one shilling of the expenses of his election, not even so much as a bowl of punch, the price of which, perhaps, the hon. member would understand. The only expense incurred at his election arose from advertisements, and the hire of a committee-room for a few days. He did not think such an assertion could have come from any but the representative of a corrupt borough.
Mr. Serjeant Onslow
said, he had heard with surprise the declaration of the hon. member for Newton.
Sir R. Wilson
most solemnly declared, that he had never paid for his seat in meal, and he was quite sure that his hon. colleague never paid for his in malt. He had now been twice elected, and it was much to the honour of the six thousand electors of Southwark, that he had never paid a single shilling, directly or indirectly, towards his election. And he was sure that, if the hon. members for Westminster were in their places, they would say as much for their constituents. It was the duty of the House to carry these resolutions by a large majority, to shew that they were in earnest in their endea-
1409
Sir M. W. Ridley
rose, to suggest the best mode of shortening this debate. He would advise every member, who felt the unmerited imputation cast by the hon. member's statement, to vote in favour of the noble lord's resolution. He repelled the accusation as far as he was personally concerned, and he called upon those who felt with him to vote with him also.
General Gascoyne
said, he had had the honour of being returned six times to parliament for the town of Liverpool, and he solemnly declared, that upon no occasion had he been called upon to pay, directly or indirectly, a single shilling for his seat. He thought that declaration due to the people of Liverpool. At the same time he felt bound to give his support to the resolutions of the noble lord.
Mr. F. Palmer
denied that he had ever paid for his seat in any way. His committee sat every Tuesday for the last three months, and if the hon. member for Newton would only pay them a visit next Tuesday, they would give him such a lesson about purity of election as would induce him to change his opinions.
Mr. T. Wilson
agreed with the hon. member for Newton, in thinking that it was difficult for any man to say, when he did or did not infringe the bribery laws. He also agreed with his hon. colleague, that there was no such thing in the city of London as bribery or corruption. He believed, nevertheless, that a person might offend against the law without knowing that he did so. With respect to the offer of a seat, mentioned by the hon. member for Aberdeen, he thought that it must have been a hoax played off upon him; for, considering that the hon. member was such a strenuous advocate for purity of election, he was likely to be the last man to whom such an application would be made.
Lord J. Russell,
in reply, thanked the hon. member for Newton, for having made a speech so well calculated to support his resolutions. If corruption at elections was so general, as to be supposed by the hon. member universal, there needed no stronger argument in favour of the course which he called upon the House to pursue. He wished the hon. member had attended the last meeting of the electors of Westminster, and they would have shown him that the people only sought able and honest representa-
1410
Mr. H. Gurney
said, he wished to be permitted to offer a word in explanation of what had been so much animadverted upon. In stating that there was no election free from the charges of corruption and bribery, he did not mean to pledge himself so much to their actual existence, as to their constructive existence under the interpretation of the bribery laws. In fact, as the laws stood now, no one knew what was, or was not bribery.
Mr. Grenfell
said, he could put his hand to his heart, and declare that he had never resorted to any means of getting into that House of which he could possibly be ashamed. However, as he was told that practices did exist at elections, which ought to be reprobated, he thought it his duty to express his disapprobation of them by supporting this resolution.
The other resolutions were then put, and agreed to.
List of the Sixty-two Members who voted for the Resolution.
Abercromby, hon. J.
Carter, J.
Allen, J. A.
Cripps, J.
Barnard, lord
Denman, T.
Bentinck, lord W.
Ebrington, lord
Benyon, B.
Ellice, E.
Bernal, R.
Fitzgerald, M.
Bright, H.
Folkestone, lord
Brougham, H.
Gascoyne, gen.
Buxton, T. F.
Gaitskill, W.
Calcraft, J.
Gordon, T.
Calvert, N.
Grant, J. P.
1411
Grattan, J.
Parnell, sir H.
Grenfell, P.
Philips, G. jun.
Handley, H.
Powlett, hon. W. J.
Honeywood, T. P.
Robarts, A. W.
Hulse, sir E.
Scarlett, Jas.
Hume, J.
Sebright, sir J.
Knight, R.
Smith, W.
Lamb, hon. G.
Stanley, lord
Lethbridge, sir T.
Tavistock, marquis
Lloyd, sir E.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Lockhart, J. J.
Tremayne, J. H.
Lushington, Dr.
Tulk, C. A.
Maberly, J.
Wood, Alderman
Maberly, J. L.
Williams, sir R.
Martin, J.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Maule, hon. W.
Warre, J. A.
Maxwell, J.
Wilson, sir R.
Milton, lord
Wharton, J.
Normanby, lord
Onslow, serj.
TELLERS.
Ord, W.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Palmer, C. F.
Russell, lord John
List of the Sixty-two members who voted against the Resolution.
Alexander, Jas.
Lewis, F.
Attwood, M.
Long, sir C.
Bankes, H.
Lowther, T.
Bankes, G.
Lushington, Dr.
Baillie, col. J.
Lushington, col.
Balfour, John
Montgomery, gen.
Blair, J.
Ommanney, sir F.
Bonham, H.
Palmerston, lord
Cawthorne, col.
Peel, rt. hon. R.
Chichester, sir A.
Penruddock, J. H.
Clerk, sir G.
Phillimore, Dr
Cockerell, sir C.
Plummer, John
Cocks, J.
Robertson, R. C.
Croker, J. W.
Robinson, rt. hon. F.
Divett, T.
Ross, C.
Douglas, W. K.
Sandon, lord
Downie, R.
Scott (of Roxborough)
Dundas, rt. hon. R.
Somerset, lord G.
Egerton, W.
Townsend, colonel
Estcourt, T. G. B.
Trant, W. H.
Fitzgerald, V.
Twiss, H. T.
Forbes, sir C.
Warrender, sir G.
Gilbert, D.
Wetherell, sir C.
Grosset, J. R.
Wilson, T.
Gurney, H.
Wodehouse, E.
Hill, sir G. F.
Wortley, Stewart
Holmes, W.
Wynn, rt. hon. C.
Horton, R. W.
Yorke, sir J.
Huskisson, rt. hon. W.
TELLERS.
Irving, John
Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Knox, hon. T.
Herries, J. C.
STATE OF THE CURRENCY.
Mr. Secretary Peel
brought up the Report of the Select Committee on the Banking System of Scotland and Ireland. On the motion, that it be received,
Mr. Tierney
rose, pursuant to notice, and said, that, as the report now brought up involved the consideration of that sys-
1412
1413
1414
1415
1416
1417
l.
1418
1419
1420
1421
1422
l.
l.
1423
1424
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that in rising to address himself to this subject, he felt that he was placed in a most embarrassing situation, owing to the extraordinary manner in which it had been introduced by the right hon. gentleman. It should be recollected, that the report which the right hon. gentleman had made the subject of remark, was not in the possession of a single member; neither was any individual, except those who attended the committee, acquainted with the evidence on which that committee had arrived at a certain conclusion; and when this was the acknowledged fact, was it not utterly impossible for those to whom the right hon. gentleman had made his appeal, to come to any fair or prudent judgment? The committee had continued their inquiry until a very late period of the session. They had laboured until no more time remained than was sufficient for the consideration of that evidence on which they had formed their judgment; and he hoped the House would suspend their opinion until that evidence was laid before them. He never sat on a committee that was more disposed to listen to every representation. He never sat on a committee that was more disposed to cast aside every consideration, and every proposition, except what was connected
1425
l.
l.
l.
1426
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
1427
1428
1429
1430
1431
l.
l.
1432
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Abercromby
said, that he went into the committee with a full persuasion of the extreme absurdity of having one set of principles regarding the currency for England, and another set for Scotland, and he had heard nothing, in the course of the inquiry, that had altered his opinion. Every position in the report was in favour of the general principles the House had adopted for this country, but the con-
1433
Mr. Peel,
across the table: "That was during the Bank restriction."
Mr. Abercromby,
"Not then, only. I affirm, that this state of things existed during the very last year."
Mr. Peel,
"And in England, too."
Mr. Abercromby
continued, he did not dispute that. He stated a general proposition, which he knew was equally applicable to both countries. A great deal had been said of the loss occasionally sustained by the English labourer, by the failure of a country bank; but he was convinced that the Scotch labourer suffered a much more severe loss by the depreciation of the currency, resulting from over-issues, because this loss was of longer continuance. There could be no doubt
1434
1435
Mr. J. P. Grant
denied that it was at all necessary to assimilate the currency of Scotland and England. A difference had existed in that currency for a very long and difficult period, and yet they had the evidence of three Bank directors, decidedly declaring that it had no bad effect upon the commerce of that country, or the transactions of its inhabitants. During a period of little less than a century, there had been, in fact, but two failures; the whole loss from which amounted to only 36,000
l.
1436
Mr. W. Gordon
said, that the Scotch were perfectly right in preferring their own system of banking to that of England. No complaint had been made against the Scotch system of banking; no overtrading, no rash speculation had been attributed to that system, and no failures had occurred in Scotland in consequence of its being adopted. That system had given the greatest satisfaction to the trading interest of Scotland, and to the country at large. It would, therefore, have been both unjust and impolitic to interfere with it. England was differently circumstanced. An alteration in England was an act of necessity; but in Scotland, the present system of banking having given satisfaction for so long a period, there was no necessity whatever for a change. It ought always to be recollected by those who considered the subject, that in England they were only returning to the system which had once universally prevailed, and which had been interrupted by a succession of circumstances; but in Scotland it had been always the same, and with it they had gone on advancing in power and prosperity. If a paper circulation enjoyed the confidence of the people, he, for one, would always support it.
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, that as he had abstained from making any observations upon the system of banking at the time when the subject was discussed with reference to the English country bankers, he might perhaps be asked, why he proposed to make any observations upon the subject now. In answer to that, he could say, that as an English country banker, as one of those whose proceedings were said to have produced all the misery which afflicted the country, he had
1437
1438
1439
Mr. Robertson
was of opinion, that a currency founded on a metallic basis, was the only one on which the country could rely for security.
Mr. T. Wilson
objected to the restrictions which had been imposed on English country bankers, while those of Scotland were exempted from their operation. He was of opinion, that if the currency of this country had been let alone, it would have righted itself, and we might have gone on as well as before; but to begin our alterations by depressing the country bankers, and by placing them under restrictions from which Scotch bankers were exempted, merely because there had been fewer failures in Scotland, was a course which he thought entirely wrong. He disagreed with those who had advised a different course to be pursued with regard to the two countries; as he considered that England and Scotland ought to have been left to work together, and he was sure, if they had, it would have been to their mutual advantage. To impose these restrictions on English country bankers, was to advance Scotland at the expense of England; for he was convinced there were no means of circumscribing the Scotch paper currency to the limits of that country alone. If the principle on which ministers acted was a good one, it ought to be applied to both countries.
Mr. Alderman Heygate
thought, that a great deal of injustice might have been avoided, if an inquiry had been entered into sooner; but all inquiry was, in the first instance, refused. The true requisite of a currency was security, and that was not to be obtained by abolishing paper-money altogether; for, if that was
1440
Mr. Ellice
said, he could not come to the same conclusion as the hon. member who had just taken his seat; namely, that the report of the committee was a sound and wise report. The principle on which their report was founded was unknown to him, and the report itself was diametrically opposed to what he expected, after the events which had occurred at the beginning of the session. He agreed with the member for Knaresborough, that if Scotland was to be exempted from the operation of the new measures, on account of the evidence which had been presented to the Committee, he could have produced evidence equally strong to exempt the bankers of the various counties of England; and he would appeal to the hon. member for Newton for evidence to except Norfolk from the operation of these bills. He asked, therefore, with the hon. member for Newcastle, why they had not heard evidence for England? Ministers had not acted with more propriety on this occasion than they would have done in making different Corn-bills for England, Ireland, and Scotland. They had been asked, what pledge the ministers had given that they would not pass the measures for England without making them embrace both Scotland and Ireland? He answered, that that pledge had, in effect, been given by the chancellor of the Exchequer, in the discussion that took place on the first proposition of the measure. He had then asked the right hon. gentleman, what was intended to be done with respect to England and Scotland? and he was answered, that it was
1441
1442
s.
s.
s.
s.
Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, he was convinced, that all the trading and commercial concerns of Scotland were so interwoven with her system of paper money, that distress and ruin would follow any attempt to break it up. He did not, however, present himself as a panegyrist of that system,
per se,
s.
s.
1443
l.
s.
d.
Mr. Cripps
thought, that the bankers of England had reason to complain that a committee of inquiry had not been granted, before their circulation was limited by the alteration in the currency. They were as much entitled to that favour as the Scotch banks. With respect to the Bank of England, he thought it had many difficulties to encounter, before the establishment of the branch banks; but these difficulties it had laudably endeavoured to surmount; and he hoped, that before the next session those banks would be in operation, much to the advantage of the public.
Mr. Maxwell
expressed his firm conviction, that it would be impossible to keep faith with the public creditor, and at the same time to continue a metallic currency. The only way to support such a currency would be, to reduce taxation; and he for one would vote for such reduction, without reference to any consideration of whether or not the reduction would prevent faith being kept with the public creditor.
1444
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, May 31 1826.
THE KING'S SPEECH AT THE CLOSE OF
After the royal assent had been given to sundry bills, the Session was put an end to by Commission. Upon which occasion, the Lord Chancellor delivered the following Speech:—
"My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"His Majesty commands us to inform you that the state of the public business enabling his Majesty to close the Session at a period of the year the most convenient for a general election, it is his Majesty's intention to dissolve, without delay, the present Parliament, and to direct the issue of writs for the calling of a new one.
"His Majesty cannot take leave of you without commanding us to express his Majesty's deep sense of the zeal and public spirit which you have constantly displayed in the discharge of your several important functions.
"His Majesty particularly acknowledges the promptitude and discretion with which you have applied yourselves to the objects specially recommended to you by his Majesty at the commencement of this session; and his Majesty confidently hopes that the good effect of your deliberations will be manifested in the improved stability of public and private credit.
"His Majesty has the satisfaction to inform you, that the distinguished skill, bravery, and success, with which the operations of the British arms, in the dominions of the king of Ava, have been carried on, have led to the signature, upon highly honourable terms, of a preliminary treaty with that sovereign, which his Majesty has every reason to expect will be the foundation of a secure and permanent peace.
1445
"His Majesty further commands us to repeat to you, that his Majesty's earnest endeavours have continued to be unremittingly exerted to prevent the breaking out of hostilities among nations, and to put an end to those which still unhappily exist, as well in America as in Europe.
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"His Majesty commands us to thank you for the provision which you have made for the service of the year.
"His Majesty's attention will be constantly directed to the reduction of the public expenditure in every degree that may be consistent with the due maintenance of the security, honour, and interests of his kingdom.
"My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"We are specially commanded to assure you, that his Majesty's paternal feelings have been deeply affected by the distresses which have prevailed among the manufacturing classes of his Majesty's subjects,
1446
"His Majesty trusts that the causes out of which the partial stagnation of employment has arisen are, under the blessing of Providence, in a course of gradual abatement.
"His Majesty is confident that your presence and example in your several counties will contribute to maintain and encourage the loyal and orderly spirit which pervades the great body of his people; and his Majesty relies upon your disposition to inculcate that harmony and mutual good-will among the several great interests of the country, upon which the common prosperity of them all essentially depends."
After which, the lord Chancellor prorogued the parliament to the 14th of June. Thus ended the Seventh parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.
APPENDIX.
FINANCE ACCOUNTS
FOR THE YEAR ENDED 5TH JANUARY, 1826.
CLASS
I. PUBLIC INCOME.
II. PUBLIC EXPENDITURE.
III. CONSOLIDATED FUND.
IV. PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT.
V. UNFUNDED DEBT.
VI. DISPOSITION OF GRANTS.
VII. ARREARS AND BALANCES.
VIII. TRADE AND NAVIGATION.
No. I—An Account of the ORDINARY REVENUES and EXTRAORDINARY RESOURCES,
IRELAND, for the Year
HEADS OF REVENUE.
CROSS RECEIPT.
Repayments, Allowances, Discounts, Drawbacks, and Bounties of the Nature of Drawbacks, &c.
NETT RECEIPT within the Year, after deducting REPAYMENTS, &c.
Ordinary Revenues.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
20,367,652
14
10
1,422,394
15
8¾
18,945,257
19
1¼
Excise
26,089,408
10
0¼
3,742,554
16
8¾
22,346,853
13
3½
Stamps
7,881,150
1
10¾
257,408
1
4½
7,623,742
0
6¼
Taxes, under the Management of the Commissioner of Taxes
5,183,012
10
5
6,290
2
3
5,176,722
8
2
Post Office
2,367,567
16
6
98,948
6
5
2,268,619
10
0
One Shilling in the Pound, and Sixpence in the Pound on Pensions and Salaries, and Four Shillings in the Pound on Pensions.
57,958
10
5¾
57,958
10
5¾
Hackney Coaches, and Hawkers and Pedlars
69,998
10
7
69,998
10
7
Crown Lands
513,766
10
4½
513,766
10
4½
Small Branches of the King's Hereditary Revenue
9,056
1
5
9,056
1
5
Lottery; Surplus Produce after payment of Prizes
295,390
0
0
295,390
0
0
Surplus Fees of Regulated Public Offices
56,091
14
7
56,091
14
7
Poundage Fees, Pells Fees, Casualties, Treasury Fees, and Hospital Fees.
11,520
6
11¾
11,520
6
11¾
TOTALS of Ordinary Revenues
62,902,573
8
1
5,527,596
2
6
57,374,977
5
6
Other Resources.
Money brought from the Civil List on Account of the Clerk of the Hanaper.
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Money received from the East India Company, on Account of Retired Pay, Pensions, &c. of his Majesty's Forces serving in the East Indies, per Act 4 Geo. 4, c. 71
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
From the Commissioners for the Issue of Exchequer Bills, per Act 57 Geo. 3, c. 34, for the Employment of the Poor.
208,307
0
0
208,307
0
0
Money received from the Trustees of Naval and Military Pensions
4,507,500
0
0
4,507,500
0
0
From several County Treasurers, and others in Ireland, on Account of Advances made by the Treasury, for improving Post Roads, for building Gaols, for the Police, for Public Works, Employment of the Poor, &c.
210,388
14
10¾
210,388
14
10¾
Imprest Monies, repaid by sundry Public Accountants, and other Monies paid to the Public
220,283
11
0¾
220,283
11
0¾
TOTALS of the Public Income of the United Kingdom
68,111,052
14
0½
5,527,596
2
6
62,583,456
11
5
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 10th March 1826.
constituting the PUBLIC INCOME of the United Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and
ended 5th January, 1826.
TOTAL INCOME, including BALANCES outstanding 5th Jan. 1825.
Charges of Collection, and other Payments out of the Income, in its Progress to the Exchequer.
PAYMENTS into the EXCHEQUER.
BALANCES and BILLS outstanding on 5th January, 1826.
TOTAL DISCHARGE of the INCOME.
Rate per cent for which the Gross Receipt was collected.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
19,315,172
11
10⅜
2,253,538
2
9½
16,541,524
0
1
520,110
8
11⅞
19,315,172
11
10⅜
7
7
9
23,750,164
6
5⅛
1,580,934
15
4⅛
21,004,487
6
11
1,164,742
4
2
23,750,164
6
5⅛
4
16
0
8,049,765
2
9¼
184,914
4
7,447,923
18
11
416,927
3
6¼
8,049,765
2
9¼
2
6
11
5,393,166
6
0
310,669
13
9
4,990,961
2
4¾
91,535
9
10¼
5,393,166
6
0
5
11
10
2,474,626
8
1
664,767
10
0
1,595,461
10
9¼
2l4,397
7
3¾
2,474,626
8
1
25
11
10
61,250
3
2¾
1,375
18
8
56,730
5
11¾
3,143
18
7
61,250
3
2¾
2
5
7
70,012
18
5
10,149
17
1
59,857
0
0
6
1
4
70,012
18
5
14
9
11
625,626
2
8¾
587,768
15
6½
37,857
7
2¼
625,626
2
8¾
9
3
2
13,111
9
8
3,313
2
8¾
5,442
9
7
4,355
17
5¾
13,111
9
8¾
14
9
11
295,390
0
0
295,390
0
0
295,390
0
0
—
56,091
14
7
56,091
14
7
56,091
14
7
—
11,520
6
11¾
11,520
6
11¾
11,520
6
11¾
—
60,115,897
10
96/8
5,597,431
16
2⅛
52,065,389
16
2½
2,453,075
18
5⅛
60,115,897
10
96/8
6
3
11
(Fractions omitted.)
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
—
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
—
208,307
0
0
208,307
0
0
208,307
0
0
—
4,507,500
0
0
4,507,500
0
0
4,507,500
0
0
—
210,588
14
10¾
210,388
14
10¾
210,388
14
10¾
—
220,283
11
0¾
220,283
11
0¾
220,283
11
0¾
—
65,324,376
16
9¼
5,597,431
16
2⅛
57,273,869
2
2
2,453,075
18
5⅛
65,324,376
16
9¼
—
No. II—An Account of the ORDINARY REVENUES and EXTRAORDINARY
the Year ended
HEADS OF REVENUE.
CROSS RECEIPT.
Repayments, Allowances, Discounts, Drawbacks, and Bounties of the Nature of Drawbacks
NETT RECEIPT within the Year, after deducting REPAYMENTS, &c.
Ordinary Revenues.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
18,226,717
17
9½
1,188,360
10
8½
17,038,357
7
1
Excise
24,188,397
14
11½
3,711,709
3
9¼
20,476,688
11
2¼
Stamps
7,391,527
10
4½
247,856
9
8¼
7,143,671
0
8¼
Taxes, under the Management of the Commissioners of Taxes
5,183,012
10
5
6,290
2
3
5,176,722
8
2
Post Office
2,160,390
2
1
78,810
13
8
2,081,579
8
4
One Shilling in the Pound, and Sixpence in the Pound on Pensions and Salaries, and Four Shillings in the Pound on Pensions
57,958
10
5¾
57,958
10
5¾
Hackney Coaches, and Hawkers and Pedlars
69,998
10
7
69,998
10
7
Crown Lands
513,766
10
4½
513,766
10
4½
Small Branches of the King's Hereditary Revenue.
9,056
1
5
56,091
1
5
Lottery, Surplus Produce after Payment of Prizes
295,390
0
0
295,390
0
0
Sarplus Fees of Regulated Public Offices
56,091
14
7
56,091
14
7
TOTALS of Ordinary Revenues
58,152,307
3
0¾
5,233,027
0
1
52,919,230
2
11
Other Resources.
Money brought from the Civil List, on Account of the Clerk of the Hanaper
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
Money received from the East India Company on Account of Retired Pay, Pensions, &c. of his Majesty's Forces serving in the East Indies, per Act 4 Geo. 4, c. 71
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
From the Commissioners for the Issue of Exchequer Bills, per Act 57 Geo. 3, c. 34, for the Employment of the Poor
208,307
0
0
208,307
0
0
Money received from the Trustees of Naval and Military Pensions
4,507,500
0
0
4,507,500
0
0
Imprest Monies repaid by sundry Public Accountants, and other Monies paid to the Public
173,677
14
8½
173,677
14
8½
TOTALS of the Public Income of Great Britain
63,103,791
17
9¼
5,233,027
0
1
57,870,764
17
7
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 20th March 1826.
RESOURCES, constituting the PUBLIC INCOME of GREAT BRITAIN, for
5th January, 1826.
TOTAL INCOME, including BALANCES outstanding 5th Jan. 1825.
Charges of Collection and other Payments out of the Income, in its Progress to the Exchequer.
PAYMENTS into the EXCHEQUER.
BALANCES and BILLS outstanding on 5th January, 1826.
TOTAL DISCHARGE of the INCOME.
Rate per cent for which the Cross Receipt was collected.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
17,363,810
2
6¾
1,738,967
15
7¾
15,194,256
6
1¾
430,586
1
9¼
17,363,810
2
6¾
6
4
8
24,806,565
14
10½
1,264,496
10
9¾
19,524,621
17
10¾
1,017,447
6
2
21,806,565
14
10¼
4
4
11
7,461,948
3
4
149,231
0
1¾
6,997,233
16
9
315,483
11
5¼
7,461,948
8
4
2
0
4
5,393,166
6
0
310,669
13
9
4,990,961
2
4¾
91,535
9
10¾
5,393,166
6
0
5
11
10
2,244,668
5
7
563,957
12
3½
1,517,000
0
0
163,710
13
4
2,244,668
5
7
23
14
6
61,250
3
2¾
1,375
18
8
56 730
5
11¾
3,143
18
7
61,250
3
2¾
2
5
7
70,012
18
5
10,149
17
1
59,857
0
0
6
1
4
70,012
18
5
14
9
11
625,626
2
8¾
587,763
15
6½
37,857
7
2¼
625,626
2
8¾
9
3
2
13,111
9
8¾
3,313
2
8
5,442
9
7
4,355
17
5¾
13,111
9
8¾
14
9
11
295,390
0
0
295,390
0
0
295,390
0
0
55,391
14
7
56,091
14
7
56,091
14
7
55,391,641
6
1
4,629,930
6
7¼
48,697,584
12
4
2,064,126
7
1¾
55,391,641
6
1
5
9
2
(Fractions omitted.)
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
—
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
—
208,307
0
0
208,307
0
0
208,307
0
0
—
4,507,500
0
0
4,507,500
0
0
4,507,500
0
0
—
173,677
14
8½
173,677
14
8½
173,677
14
8½
—
60,343,126
0
9½
4,629,930
6
7¼
53,649,069
7
1¾
2,064,126
7
1¾
60,343,126
0
9½
—
No. III.—An Account of the ORDINARY REVENUES and EXTRAORDINARY
ended 5th
HEADS OF REVENUE.
CROSS RECEIPT.
Repayments, Drawbacks, Discounts, &c.
NEXT RECEIPT within the Year, after deducting REPAYMENTS, &c.
Ordinary Revenues.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
2,140,934
17
0½
234,034
5
0¼
1,906,900
12
0¼
Excise
1,901,010
15
0¾
30,845
12
11½
1,870,165
2
1¼
Stamps
489,622
11
6¼
9,551
11
8¼
480,070
19
10
Post Office
207,177
14
5
20,137
12
9¼
187,040
1
7¾
Poundage Fees, Pells Fees, Casualties, Treasury Fees, and Hospital Fees
11,520
6
11¾
11,520
6
11¾
TOTALS of Ordinary Revenues
4,750,266
5
0¼
294,569
2
5¼
4,455,697
2
7
Other Resources.
From the Provost and Fellows of Trinity College, on account of Advances made by die Treasury for completing the North Square of the said College, per Act 54 Geo. 3, c. 167
1,107
13
10¼
1,107
13
10¼
From several County Treasures, and others:
On Account of Advances made by the Treasury for improving Post Roads in Ireland, under Act 45 Geo. 3, c. 43
7,827
11
11
7,827
11
11
On Account of Advances made by the Treasury for building Gaols, under Act 50 Geo. 3, c. 103
27,863
8
2½
27,863
8
3½
On Account of Advances made by the Treasury for Police in proclaimed Districts, under Acts 54 Geo. 3, c. 131, and 180, and 3 Geo. 4, c. 103
111,566
14
7¼
111,566
14
7¼
On Account of Advances made by the Treasury for Public Works and Employment of the Poor, under Acts 57 Geo. 3, c. 34 and 124, and 3 Geo. 4, c. 112, and 3 Geo. 4, c. 84
62,023
6
2¾
62,023
6
2¾
Imprest Monies repaid by sundry Public Accountants, and other Monies paid to the Public
46,605
16
4¼
46,605
16
4¼
TOTALS of the Public Income of Ireland
5,007,260
16
3¼
294,569
2
5¼
4,712,691
13
10
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 20th March 1826.
RESOURCES, constituting the PUBLIC INCOME of IRELAND, for the Year
January, 1826.
TOTAL INCOME including BALANCES outstanding 5th Jan. 1825.
Charges of Collection, and other Payments Out of the Income, in its Progress to the Exchequer.
PAYMENTS into the EXCHEQUER.
BALANCES and BILLS outstanding on 5th January, 1826.
TOTAL DISCHARGE of the INCOME.
Rate per cent for which the Cross Receipt was collected.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1,951,363
9
3⅝
514,570
7
1¾
1,347,267
14
11¼
89,524
7
2⅝
1, 951,362
9
3⅝
17
4
2
1,943,598
11
6⅝
316,438
4
6⅝
1,479,865
9
0¼
147,294
18
0
1,943,598
11
6⅝
11
17
5
587,816
14
5¼
35,683
0
2¼
450,690
2
2
101,443
12
1
587,816
14
5¼
7
5
9
229,958
2
5½
100,809
17
8½
78,461
10
9¼
50,686
13
11¾
229,958
2
5½
45
1
7
11,520
6
11¾
11,520
6
11¾
11,520
6
11¾
—
(Fractions omitted.)
1,107
13
10¼
1,107
13
10¼
1,107
13
10¼
—
7,827
11
11
7,827
11
11
7,827
11
11
—
27,863
8
3½
27,863
8
3½
27,863
8
3½
—
111,566
14
7¼
111,566
14
7¼
111,566
14
7¼
—
62,023
6
2¾
62,023
6
2¾
62,023
6
2¾
—
46,605
16
4¼
46,605
16
4¼
46,605
16
4¼
—
4,981,250
15
116/8
967,501
9
6⅞
3,624,799
15
1½
388,949
11
3⅜
4,981,250
15
116/8
—
No. I.—AN ACCOUNT of the TOTAL INCOME of the REVENUE of GREAT BRI-
Repayments, Allowances, Discounts, Drawbacks, and Bounties of the nature
DITURE of the United Kingdom, exclusive of the Sums ap-
HEADS OF REVENUE.
NETT RECEIPT, as stated in Account of Public Income.
——
ORDINARY REVENUES.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Balances and Bills outstanding on 5th January 1825
2,740,920
5
3
Customs
18,945,257
19
1¼
Excise
22,346,853
13
3½
Stamps
7,623,742
0
6¼
Taxes
5,176,722
8
2
Post Office
2,268,619
10
0
One Shilling and Sixpenny Duty on Pensions and Salaries, and Four Shillings in the Pound on Pensions
57,958
10
5¾
Hackneys Coaches, and Hawkers and Pedlars
69,998
10
7
Crown Lands
513,766
10
4½
Small Branches of the King's Hereditary Revenue
9,056
1
5
Surplus Produce of Lottery, after payment of Lottery Prizes
295,390
0
0
Surplus Fees of regulated Public Offices
56,091
14
7
Poundage Fees, Pells Fees, Casualties, Treasury Fees, and Hospital Fees
11,520
6
11¾
57,374,977
5
6
60,115,897
10
9
2,453,075
18
5
Deduct Balances and Bills outstanding on 5th January 1826
57,662,821
12
4
TOTAL Ordinary Revenues
OTHERS RESOURCES.
Money brought from the Civil List, on account of the Clerk of the Hanaper
2,000
0
0
Money received from the East India Company, on account of Retired Pay, Pensions, &c. of his Majesty's Forces serving in the East Indies, per Act 4 Geo. 4, c. 71
60,000
0
0
By the Commissioners for the issue of Exchequer Bills, for the employment of the Poor, per Act 57 Geo. 3, c. 34
208,207
0
0
By the Trustees of Naval and Military Pensions
4,507,500
0
0
Money repaid in Ireland, on account of Advances from the Consolidated Fund, under various Acts, for Public Improvements
210,388
14
10¾
Imprest and other Monies paid into the Exchequer
220,283
11
0¾
5,208,479
5
11½
62,871,300
18
4
Balances in the hands of Receivers, &c. on 5th January 1825
2,740,920
5
3
Ditto on 5th January 1826
2,453,075
18
5
Balances less in 1826 than in 1825
287,844
6
10
Surplus Income paid into the Exchequer, over Expenditure thereont
5,653,841
6
0¼
Actual Excess of Income over Expenditure
5,365,996
19
1
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 20th March 1826.
CLASS II.ߞPUBLIC EXPENDITURE.
TAIN and IRELAND, in the Year ended 5th January 1826, after deducting the
of Drawbacks; together with an Account of the PUBLIC EXPEN-
plied to the Reduction of the National Debt within the same period.
EXPENDITURE.
—
—
PAYMENTS OUT OK THE INCOME
in its progress to the Exchequer:
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Charges of Collection
3,898,377
16
7½
Other Payments
1,699,053
19
6⅜
TOTAL Payments out of the Income, prior to the Payments into the Exchequer
5,597,431
16
2⅜
PAYMENTS OUT OF THE EXCHEQUER:
Dividends, Interest, and Management of the Public Debt, four Quarters to 10th October 1825, exclusive of 5,486,475
l
s
d
27,230,789
19
6¼
Interest on Exchequer Bills
829,498
2
5
28,060,288
1
11¼
Issued to the Trustees of Military and Naval Pensions, &c. per Act 3 Geo. 4, c. 51
2,214,260
0
0
Ditto Bank of England, per Act 4 Geo. 4, c. 22
585,740
0
0
2,800,000
0
0
Civil List four Quarters to 5lh January 1826
2,057,000
0
0
Pensions charged by Act of Parliament on Consolidated Fund, four Quarters to 10th October 1825
366,028
8
2½
Salaries and Allowances
87,641
5
0½
Officers Courts of Justice
93,642
0
4
Expenses of the Mint
14,748
15
10
Bounties
2,956
13
8
Miscellaneous
261,845
18
0
Ditto Ireland
301,084
2
9
2,189,947
3
10
Repayment of Loan from Royal Exchange Assurance Company, on account of the New Street
100,000
0
0
For the purchase of Silver for the New Coinage in Ireland
500,000
0
0
For Building New Churches in the Irelands of Scotland
50,000
0
0
650,000
0
0
Army
7,579,631
4
4½
Navy
5,849,119
4
3
Ordnance
1,567,087
7
7¾
Miscellaneous
2,216,081
15
4½
17,211,919
11
7¾
Money paid to the Bank of England, more than received from them for Unclaimed Dividends
49,464
11
6
By the Commissioners for issuing Exchequer Bills, per Act 3 Geo. 4, c. 86, for the Employment of the Poor
125,150
0
0
Advances out of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland, for Public Works
533,258
7
2¼
707,872
18
8¼
TOTAL
57,217,459
12
3⅞
Surplus of Income paid into Exchequer, over Expenditure issued thereout
5,653,841
6
0¼
62,871,300
18
4⅛
No. II.—An Account of the Nett PUBLIC INCOME of the United Kingdom of
the Expenditure thereout, defrayed by the several Revenue Depart-
exclusive of the Sums applied to the Redemption
INCOME.
Applicable to the Consolidated Fund.
Applicable to other Public Services.
Income paid info the Exchequer.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Customs
13,530,524
0
1
3,011,000
0
0
16,541,524
0
1
Excise
21,000,487
6
10½
4,000
0
0
21,004,487
6
10½
Stamps
7,447,923
18
11
7,447,923
18
11
Taxes under the management of the Commissioners of Taxes, including Arrears of Property Tax
4,990,961
2
4¾
4,990,961
2
4¾
Post Office
1,595,461
10
9¼
1,595,461
10
9¼
One Shilling and Sixpence Duty on Pensions and Salaries; and Four Shillings in the Pound on Pensions
56,750
5
11¾
56,730
5
11¾
Hackney Coaches, and Hawkers and Pedlars
59,857
0
0
59,857
0
0
Small Branches of the King's Hereditary Revenues
5,442
9
7
5,442
9
7
Surplus Produce of Lottery, after payment of Lottery Prizes
295,390
0
0
295,390
0
0
Surplus Fees, regulated Public Offices
56,091
14
7
56,091
14
7
Poundage Fees, Pells Fees, Casualties, Treasury Fees, and Hospital Fees
11,520
6
11¾
11,520
6
11¾
TOTAL Ordinary Revenue
52,065,389
16
2
The Amount brought from the Civil List, on account of the Clerk of the Hanaper
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
By the East India Company, on account of retired Pay, Pensions, &c. of his Majesty's Forces serving in the East Indies, per Act 4 Geo. 4, c. 71
60,000
0
0
60,000
0
0
By the Trustees of Military and Naval Pensions, &c.
4,507,500
0
0
4,507,500
0
0
By the Commissioners for issuing Exchequer Bills for Public Works
208,307
0
0
208,307
0
0
Money repaid in Ireland, on account of advances from the Consolidated Fund, under various Acts for Public Improvements
210,388
14
10¾
210,388
14
10¾
Imprest and other Monies paid into the Exchequer
213,240
7
6
2,043
3
6¾
220,283
11
0¾
40,185,628
18
6¾
8,088,240
3
6¾
57,273,869
2
1½
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 8th February 1826.
GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND, in the Year ended 5th January, 1826, after abating
ments, and of the Actual Issues or Payments within the same period,
of Funded Debt, or for paying off Unfunded Debt.
EXPENDITURE.
Nett Expenditure.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Dividends, Interest, and Management of the Public Funded Debt, four quarters to 10th October 1825, exclusive of 5,486,475
l.
s.
d.
27,230,789
19
6¾
Interest on Exchequer Bills
829,498
2
5
28,060,288
1
11¼
Issued to the Trustees of Military and Naval Pensions, per Act 3 Geo. 4, c. 51
2,214,260
0
0
Ditto Bank of England 4 Geo. 4, c. 22
585,740
0
0
2,800,000
0
0
Civil List, four quarters to 5th January 1826
1,057,000
0
0
Pensions charged by Act of Parliament, on Consolidated Fund, four quarters to 10th Oct. 1825
366,028
8
2½
Salaries and Allowances Ditto
87,641
5
0½
Officers of Courts of Justice Ditto
98,642
0
4
Expenses of the Mint Ditto
14,748
15
10
Bounties Ditto
2,956
13
8
Miscellaneous Ditto
261,845
18
0
Ditto Ireland Ditto
301,084
2
9
2,189,947
3
10
Repayment of Loan from the Royal Exchange Assurance Company, on account of the New Street
100,000
0
0
For Purchase of Silver for the New Coinage in Ireland
500,000
0
0
For Building New Churches in the Highlands of Scotland
50,000
0
0
650,000
0
0
Army
7,579,631
4
4½
Navy
5,849,119
4
3
Ordnance
1,567,087
7
7¾
Miscellaneous
2,216,081
15
4½
17,211,919
11
7¾
TOTAL
50,912,151
17
5
Money paid to the Bank of England more than received from them on account of Unclaimed Dividends
49,464
11
6
By the Commissioners for issuing Exchequer Bills, per Act 3 Geo. 4, c. 86, for the Emlpoyment of the Poor
125,150
0
0
Advances out of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland, for Public Works
533,258
7
2½
707,872
18
8¼
TOTAL
51,620,027
16
1¼
Surplus of Income over Expenditure thereout
5,653,841
0
0½
57,273,869
2
1½
No. III—An Account of the BALANCE of PUBLIC MONEY remaining in the
to the FUNDED or UNFUNDED DEBT, in the Year ended 5th January,
or paying off the Unfunded Debt, within the same period; and
£.
s.
d.
Balances in the Exchequer on 5th January 1825
9,552,522
13
6¾
MONEY RAISED
In the Year ended 5tb January 1826, by the creation of
Unfunded Debt:
£.
s.
d.
Exchequer Bills issued per ACT é Geo. 4, c. 115
4,109,100
0
0
Ditto 6 2
20,000,000
0
0
Ditto 6 70
3,756,300
0
0
Ditto Public Works 3 Geo. 4, c. 86
125,150
0
0
Ditto Churches 58 Geo. 3, c 45
146,500
0
0
28,137,050
0
0
To pay off £.4 per cent Dissentients per Act 5 Geo. 4, c. 45
597,000
0
0
TOTAL
38,286,572
13
6¾
Surplus of Income over Expenditure thereout
5,653,841
6
0¼
43,940,413
19
7
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 8th February 1826.
EXCHEQUER on the 5th January, 1825; the amount of Money raised by additions
1826; the Money applied towards the Redemption of the Funded,
the Money remaining in the Exchequer on the 5th January, 1826.
APPLIED BY
£.
s.
d.
The Commissioners for the Redaction of the National Debt in the Redemption of Funded Debt.
£.
s.
d.
Sinking Fund, Unredcemed Funded Debt
5,000,000
0
0
Interest on Redeemed Ditto
486,475
7
8
5,486,475
7
8
Bank of England, to pay off £.5 per cent Annuities 1797 and 1802
10,000
0
0
Ditto £.4 per cent Annuities
200,000
0
0
Bank of Ireland Ditto
397,000
0
0
607,000
0
0
Applied towards the Redemption of Funded Debt
6,093,475
7
8
UNFUNDED DEBT
Issued to the Paymasters of Exchequer Bills, to pay off Unfunded Debt
32,541,300
0
0
33,634,775
7
8
Balances in the Exchequer at 5th January 1826
5,305,638
11
11
43,940,413
19
7
N.B.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
By Purchase of Stock
2,438,359
18
4
By cancelling Exchequer Bills issued to pay £.A per cent Dissentients
2,390,000
0
0
By Interest on Exchequer Bills charged on Sinking Fund
95,446
10
3
By Life Annuities
562,668
19
1
5,486,475
7
8
No. I.—An Account of the INCOME of the CONSOLIDATED FUND arising in the
1826; and also of the Actual Payments on account
£.
s.
d.
The Total Income applicable to the Consolidated Fund
49,185,628
18
6¾
49,185,628
18
6¾
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 8th February 1826.
No. II.—An Account of the MONEY applicable to the Payment of the CHARGE of the
1826, and of the several CHARGES which have become due thereon,
charged upon the said Fund, at the commence-
£.
s.
d.
Income arising in Great Britain
45,560,829
2
5¾
£.
s.
d.
Income arising in Ireland
3,624,799
15
1
Add the Sum paid out of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland, towards the Supplies, in the Quarter ended 5th January 1825
254,356
14
0¼
3,879,156
9
1¼
£.
s.
d.
Deduct the Sum paid out of the Consolidated Fund, towards the Supplies, in the Quarter ended 10th day of Oct. 1825
437,321
18
4½
Deduct the Sum paid out of the Consolidated Fund, towards the Supplies, in the Quarter ended 5th day of January 1826
218,119
14
5½
655,441
12
10
3,223,714
16
3¼
Total Sum applicable to the Charge of the Consolidated Fund, in the Year ended 5th day of January 1826
48,784,543
19
9
Exchequer Bills to be issued to complete the Payment of the Charge, to 5th day of January 1826
5,548,817
9
7
54,333,361
9
4
Whitchall, Treasury Chambers, 8th February 1826.
CLASS III.—CONSILIDATED FUND
United Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND, in the Year ended 5th January,
of the CONSOLIDATED FUND within the same period.
HEADS OF PAYMENT.
£.
s.
d.
Dividends, Interest, Sinking Fond, and Management of the Public Funded Debt, 4 Quarters to 10th October 1825
32,717,265
7
2¼
Interest on Exchequer Bills issued upon the credit of the Consolidated Fund
9,498
2
5
Trustees for Naval and Military Pensions, per Act 3 Geo. 4, c. 51
2,214,260
0
0
Bank of England and Military Pensions, per Act 4 Geo. 4, c. 22
585,740
0
0
Civil List, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
1,057,000
0
0
Pensions charged by Act of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 10th October 1825
366,028
8
2½
Salaries and Allowances Act of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 10th October 1825
87,641
5
0½
Officers of Courts of Justice Act of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 10th October 1825
98,642
0
4
Expenses of the Mint Act of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 10th October 1825
14,748
15
10
Bounties Act of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 10th October 1825
2,956
13
8
Miscellaneous Act of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 10th October 1825
911,845
18
0
Miscellaneous Ireland Act of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 10th October 1825
301,084
2
9
Advances out of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland, for Public Works
533,258
7
2¼
38,899,969
0
7½
SURPLUS of the CONSOLIDATED FUND
10,285,659
17
11¼
49,185,628
18
6¾
J. C. HERRIES.
CONSOLIDATED FUND of the United Kingdom, in the Year ended 5th January,
in the same Year, including the Amount of EXCHEQUER BILLS
ment and at the termination of the Year.
HEADS OF CHARGE.
£
s.
d.
Dividends, Interest, Sinking Fund, and Management of the Public Funded Debt, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
32,733,516
19
11¼
Interest on Exchequer Bills issued upon the credit of the Consolidated Fund
14,611
11
2
Trustees for Naval and Military Pensions, per Act 3 Geo. 4, c. 51
2,214,260
0
0
Bank of England and Military Pensions, per Act 4 Geo. 4, c. 22
585,740
0
0
Civil List, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
1,057,000
0
0
Pensions charged by Acts of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
369,628
0
9¼
Salaries and Allowances Acts of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
83,587
13
10½
Officers of Courts of Justice Acts of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
122,006
19
1
Expenses of the Mint Acts of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
14,748
15
10
Bounties Acts of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
2,956
13
8
Miscellaneous Acts of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
796,082
18
3
Miscellaneous Ireland Acts of Parliament upon the Consolidated Fund, 4 Quarters to 5th January 1826
302,459
9
5½
Advances out of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland, for Public Works
533,258
7
2½
38,829,857
2
2¾
Exchequer Bills issued to make good the charge of the Consolidated Fund, to 5th January 1825
1,550,031
5
6½
40,379,888
7
9¼
SURPLUS of the CONSOLIDATED FUND
13,953,473
1
6¾
54,333,361
9
4
J. C. HERRIES.
An Account of the State of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBTS of GREAT BRITAIN
DEBT.
——
1. CAPITALS.
2. CAPITALS redeemed and transferred to the Commissioners.
3. CAPITALS UNREDEEMED.
GREAT BRITAIN.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Debt due to the South Sea Company at
£.
3,662,784
8
6½
3,662,784
8
6½
Old South Sea Annuities at
£.
4,574,870
s
7
434,000
0
0
4,140,870
2
7
New South Sea Annuities at
£.
3,128,530
2
10
210,000
0
0
2,918,330
2
10
South Sea Annuities, 1751 at
£.
707,600
0
0
46,500
0
0
661,100
0
0
Debt due to the Bank of England at
£.
14,686,800
0
0
14,686,800
0
0
Bank Annuities, created in 1826 at
£.
1,000,000
0
0
437
10
9
999,562
9
3
Consolidated Annuities at
£.
360,177,746
1
0¼
7,279,953
9
3
361,897,792
11
9¼
Reduced Annuities at
£.
132,711,627
5
3
3,255,499
17
1
129,456,027
3
2
TOTAL at
£.
529,649,658
0
2¾
11,226,390
17
1
518,423,267
3
1¾
Annuities at 3½ per cent
15,117,637
8
10
380,338
0
0
14,737,299
8
10
Reduced Annuities at 3½ per cent
74,059,199
0
10
5,830,634
18
0
68,228,564
2
10
New 4 per cent Annuities
145,756,608
18
11
73,917
4
7
145,682,691
14
4
Great Britain
764,583,103
8
9¾
17,511,230
19
8
747,071,822
9
1¾
IN IRELAND.
(in British Currency.)
Irish Consolidated
£.
2,238,528
19
7
2,238,528
19
7
Irish Reduced
£.
1,031,425
14
9
1,031,425
14
9
£.
13,919,552
13
9
474,794
8
1
13,444,758
5
8
Reduced 3½ per cent Annuities
1,691,008
6
9
366,938
19
3
1,324,069
7
6
Debt due to the Bank of Ireland at
£.
1,615,384
12
4
1,615,384
12
4
New
£.
10,386,893
10
10
10,368,893
10
10
Debt due to the Bank of Ireland at
£
1,015,384
12
4
1,015,384
12
4
Ireland
31,898,178
10
4
841,733
7
4
31,056,445
3
0
TOTAL United Kingdom
796,481,281
19
1¾
18,353,014
7
0
778,128,267
12
1¾
STOCK.
£.
s.
d.
Note.
484,458,039
19
4
CLASS IV.—PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT.
and IRELAND, and of the CHARGE thereupon at the 5th January, 1826, including
7,500,000
l.
CHARGE.
IN GREAT BRITAIN.
IN IRELAND (In British Currency.)
TOTAL ANNUAL CHARGE.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Sinking Fund.
The Annual Sum of 5,000,000
l.,
4,840,000
0
0
160,000
0
0
Annual Interest on Stock standing in the names of the Commissioners
548,379
17
11¼
29,460
13
4¼
Long Annuities on Stock standing in the names of the Commissioners
7,394
14
2½
—
5,395,774
12
1¾
189,460
13
4¼
Due to the Public Creditor.
Annual Interest on Unredeemed Debt
24,283,810
18
1¾
1,145,867
19
3½
Long Annuities, expire 1860
1,333,257
4
6
—
Life Annuities payable at the Exchequer, English
26,173
18
10¾
—
Life Annuities payable at the Exchequer, Irish
35,461
7
9
7,035
4
8
25,678,703
9
3½
1,152,903
3
11½
Annual Interest on Stock transferred to the Commissioners for the Redaction of the National Debt, towards the Redemption of Land Tax under Schedules G. D. 1 & D. 2, 53 Geo. 3, c. 123
8,752
11
3½
—
Management
276,053
15
8
774
2
3
The Trustees of Military and Naval Pensions and Civil Superannuations
2,800,000
0
0
—
34,159,284
8
4¾
1,343,137
19
6¾
35,502,422
7
11½
ABSTRACT.
ANNUAL CHARGE.
——
CAPITALS.
CAPITALS transferred to the Commissioners.
CAPITALS unredeemed.
Due to the Public Creditor.
MANAGEMENT.
SINKING FUND.
TOTAL.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Great Britain
764,583,103
8
9¾
17,511,280
19
8
747,071,822
9
1¾
25,687,456
0
7
276,053
15
8
5,395,774
12
1¾
(
a
Ireland
31,898,178
10
4
841,733
7
4
31,056,445
3
0
1,152,903
9
11½
774
2
3
189,460
13
4¼
—
796,481,281
19
1¾
18,353,014
7
0
778,128,267
12
1¾
26,840,359
4
6½
276,827
17
11
5,585,235
5
6
—
The Trustees of Military and Naval Pensions and Civil Superannuations
2,800,000
0
0
—
—
—
29,640,359
4
6½
276,827
17
11
5,585,235
5
6
35,502,422
7
11½
Non-assented
£.
£.
6,149,245
17
7
(
a
£.
s.
d.
£.
Purchased with the Sinking Fund
9,541,495
8
1
Transferred for Life Annuities
1,654,981
0
0
Stock unclaimed, 10 years and upwards
203,039
17
1
Also with the Payment of
£.
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£.
£.
Purchased with Unclaimed Dividends
512,500
0
0
Transferred for Redemption of Land Tax, under Schedules C. D. 1, and D. 2
291,752
4
3
TOTAL transferred to the Commissioners, as above
18,353,014
7
0
National Debt Office, 4th February 1826.
S. HIGHAM
CLASS V.—UNFUNDED DEBT.
An Account of the UNFUNDED DEBT of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND, and of the Demands outstanding on the 5th January 1826.
PROVIDED.
UNPROVIDED.
TOTAL.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Exchequer Bills, exclusive of
£.
£.
30,771,650
0
0
30,771,650
0
0
Sums remaining unpaid, charged upon aids granted by Parliament
4,422,497
3
5¼
4,422,497
3
5¼
Advances made out of the Consolidated Fund in Ireland, towards the Supplies which are to be repaid to the Consolidated Fond, out of the Ways and Means in Great Britain
655,441
13
10
655,441
12
10
TOTAL Unfunded Debt, and Demands outstanding
5,077,938
16
3¼
30,771,650
0
0
35,849,588
16
3¼
Ways and Means
5,335,870
9
4¼
—
—
SURPLUS Ways and Means
257,931
13
1
—
—
Exchequer Bills to be issued to complete the Charge upon the Consolidated Fund
5,548,817
9
7
5,548,817
9
7
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 8th February 1826.
An Account showing how the MONIES given for the SERVICE of the United Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND, for the Year 1825, have been disposed of; distinguished under their several Heads; to 5th January 1826.
SERVICES.
SUMS Voted or Granted.
SUMS Paid.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
NAVY
5,888,876
17
10
4,859,311
9
6
ORDNANCE
1,470,891
0
0
913,516
10
9¾
FORCES
7,818,204
12
3
6,353,112
17
8½
For defraying the CHARGE of the CIVIL ESTABLISHMENTS under-mentioned, for the year 1825; viz.
Of the Bahama Islands
3,477
0
0
3,477
0
0
Of the Island of Dominica
600
0
0
—
Of Upper Canada
8,229
0
0
4,114
10
0
Of Nova Scotia
9,660
0
0
4,830
0
0
Of New Brunswick
5,194
0
0
2,500
0
0
Of Prince Edward Island
3,010
10
0
1,500
0
0
Of Sierra Leone
16,513
0
0
10,000
0
0
Of Newfoundland
11,081
0
0
6,500
0
0
Of New South Wales
23,934
0
0
12,000
0
0
To defray the Charge of the Civil and Military Establishments of the African Forts
45,930
7
3
23,000
0
0
To defray the Charge of Civil Contingencies
260,000
0
0
260,000
0
0
To defray the Charge of the Royal Military College
13,189
9
2
8,786
18
2
To defray the Charge of the Military Asylum
24,834
14
9
12,000
0
0
To pay Interest on Exchequer Bills
820,000
0
0
820,000
0
0
To defray the Salaries and Allowances to the Officers of the Houses of Lords and Commons
27,630
9
0
24,770
0
3
To defray the Expenses of the House of Lords and Commons
16,572
0
0
16,572
0
0
To make good the Deficiency of the Fee Fund in the Departments of his Majesty's Treasury, Home Secretary of Slate, Foreign Secretary of State, Secretary of Slate for the Colonies, most honourable Privy Council, and the Committee of Privy Council for Trade
93,879
0
0
71,285
7
5
Contingent Expenses and Messengers Bills in the Departments of his Majesty's Treasury, Home Secretary of Slate, Foreign Secretary of State, Secretary of State for the Colonies, most honourable Privy Council, and the Committee of Privy Council for Trade
68,634
0
0
61,956
9
2
Salaries to certain Officers, and Expenses of the Court and Receipt of Exchequer
5,351
0
0
4,877
14
4
Salaries or Allowances granted to certain Professors in the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, for reading Courses of Lectures
1,058
5
0
1,058
5
0
Salaries of the Commissioners of the Insolvent Debtors Court, of their Clerks, and the Contingent Expenses of their Office; and also the Expenses attending upon the Circuits
16,740
0
0
11,174
6
6
Salaries of the Officers and the Contingent Expenses of the Office for the Superintendence of Aliens, and also the Superannuations or retired Allowances to Officers formerly employed in that Service
4,372
0
0
4,872
0
0
Allowances to Protestant Dissenting Ministers in England, poor French Protestant Refugee Clergy, poor French Protestant Refugee Laity, and sundry small Charitable and other Allowances to the Poor of St. Martin's-in-the-Fields, and others
6,312
7
10
3,356
3
11
Foreign and other Secret Services
56,000
0
0
46,732
7
9
CLASS VI.—DISPOSITION OF GRANTS.
SERVICES—
continued.
SUMS Voted or Granted.
SUMS raid.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Expense of Printing Acts of Parliament, and Bills, Reports, and other Papers, for the two Houses of Parliament
99,169
0
0
45,497
17
5
Expenses incurred for Printing, by order of the Commissioners for carrying into execution the Measures recommended by the House of Commons respecting the Records of the Kingdom
10,371
0
0
3,919
14
4
Expense of Stationery, Printing, and Binding, for the several Public Departments of Government
96,240
0
0
48,930
0
0
Extraordinary Expenses of the Mint in the Gold Coinage
34,000
0
0
25,000
0
0
To make good the Loss upon the Irish Silver Tokens already recoined and to be re-coined
52,000
0
0
52,000
0
0
Extraordinary Expenses that may be incurred for Prosecutions, &c. relating to the Coin of this Kingdom
6,000
0
0
—
Extraordinary Expenses in the Department of the Lord Chamberlain of his Majesty's Household, for Fittings and Furniture, for the two Houses of Parliament
4,800
0
0
1,117
9
10
Expense of Law Charges
12,000
0
0
10,000
0
0
Expense attending the confining, maintaining, and employing Convicts at home and at Bermuda
78,147
0
0
78,147
0
0
Bills drawn from abroad by his Majesty's Governors and others, for Expenses incurred under the Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, and in conformity with the Orders in Council for the Support, &c. of Captured Negroes, Free American Settlers, &c
45,000
0
0
30,000
0
0
To defray the Amount of Bills drawn or to be drawn from New South Wales
120,000
0
0
—
Expense of certain Colonial Services, formerly paid out of the Extraordinaries of the Army
2,442
10
0
2,442
10
0
Expenses of Works and Repairs of Public Buildings
40,000
0
0
17,138
17
6
Expense of Works at the Royal Harbour of George the Fourth, at Kingstown (formerly Dunleary)
45,000
0
0
25,000
0
0
The following SERVICES are directed to be paid, without any Fee or other Deduction whatsoever:
British Museum, from the 25th Dec. 1824, to 25th March 1826
15,416
0
0
15,416
0
0
To make Compensation to the Commissioners appointed by several Acts for inquiring into the Collection and Management of the Revenue in Ireland, and the several Establishments connected therewith, and into certain other Revenue Departments in Great Britain, for their assiduity, care, and pains in the execution of the Trusts reposed in them by Parliament
5,200
0
0
5,200
0
0
Expense of the Penitentiary House at Milbank
20,000
0
0
5,000
0
0
Charge of the Allowances or Compensations granted or allowed as Retired Allowances or Superannuations, to Persons employed in Public Offices or Departments, or in the Public Service, according to the provisions of two Acts of his late and present Majesty
12,124
16
8
1,120
7
2
To enable his Majesty to grant relief to Toulonese and Corsican Emigrants, Dutch Naval Officers, St. Domingo Sufferers, and others who have heretofore received Allowances from his Majesty, and who, from Services performed or Losses sustained in the British Service, have special Claims upon his Majesty's justice and liberality
16,120
0
0
9,500
0
0
National Vaccine Establishment
3,000
0
0
3,000
0
0
Institution called "The Refuge for the Destitute"
5,000
0
0
5,000
0
0
For the Relief of the American Loyalists
6,300
0
0
4,000
0
0
Expense of confining and maintaining Criminal Lunatics
3,306
10
0
3,115
9
3
Salaries and Incidental Expenses of the Commissioners appointed on the part of his Majesty, under the Treaties with Spain, Portugal, and the Netherlands, for preventing the illegal Traffic in Slaves, and in pursuance of the Acts for carrying the said Treaties into effect
17,425
0
0
—
Expenses of the Special Commissioners to Spanish America
30,000
0
0
30,000
0
0
Salaries of his Majesty's Consuls General, Consuls and Viceconsuls in Spanish America
35,000
0
0
12,383
6
8
SERVICES—
continued.
SUMS Voted or Granted.
SUMS Paid.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Charges of the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, in the Colonies of Upper and Lower Canada, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Newfoundland, Prince Edward Island, and the Cape of Good Hope
15,532
0
0
15,532
0
0
Expense of the Works at the College of Edinburgh
10,000
0
0
10,000
0
0
Expense of the Works at Port Patrick Harbour
15,990
0
0
15,990
0
0
Expense of Works at Donaghadee Harbour
19,130
0
0
19,130
0
0
Expense of Buildings at the British Museum
40,000
0
0
—
Far rebuilding the Office of his majesty's Privy Council, and for completing the Office of Committee of Privy Council for Trade
18,000
0
0
—
Charge and Repairs of Works to be executed at Windsor Castle
80,000
0
0
—
To make Compensation in the year 1825, to the Commissioners appointed by his Majesty, for inquiring into the Nature and Extent of the Instruction afforded by the several Institutions in Ireland, established for the purpose of Education, for their assiduity, care, and pains in the execution of the trust reposed in them
8,000
0
0
7,000
0
0
Expenses of the Roads and Harbours of Holyhead and Howth
27,871
14
2
10,000
0
0
For facilitating Emigration from the South of Ireland to the Canadas
30,000
0
0
30,000
0
0
For the Purchase of Mr. Rich's Collection of Manuscripts, Antiquities and Coins, to be placed in the British Museum, for the Benefit of the Public
7,500
0
0
—
To enable his Majesty to remunerate John Loudon M'Adam, for the Service which he has rendered by the Introduction of a valuable Improvement in the Method of Constructing the Public Roads of this Country
2,000
0
0
2,000
0
0
To defray that part of the Expense of the Repairs to the Cobb, at Lyme Regis, rendered necessary in consequence of the destructive Effects of the Storms in the Autumn of 1824, which it is proposed should be borne by the Public
13,000
0
0
—
To indemnify certain Proprietors of Slaves in the United Stales of America, under the Treaty concluded at Ghent, on the 24th day of December 1814, and the Convention signed at St. Petersburgh on the 12th day of July 1822
200,000
0
0
—
To pay off and discharge such of the Proprietors of Annuities granted by two Acts of the 37th and 42nd years of the reign of bin late Majesty, as shall not deserve to receive
£.
120,000
0
0
10,000
0
0
For defraying the CHARGE of the following Services in Ireland; which are directed to be paid Nett in British Currency.
Expense of the Board of Works in Ireland
20,051
0
0
8,005
1
4
Expense of Printing, Stationery, and other Disbursements of the Chief and Under Secretaries Offices and Departments, and other Public Offices in Dublin Castle, &c.; and for Riding Charges and other Expenses of the Deputy Pursuivants and Messengers attending the said Offices; also Superannuated Allowances in the Chief Secretary's Offices
15,886
0
0
11,660
11
0¼
Expense of publishing Proclamations and other matters of a public nature, in the Dublin Gazette and other Newspapers in Ireland
6,500
0
0
5,060
18
8¾
Expense of Printing Statutes for the use of the Magistrates and Public Officers in Ireland
5,000
0
0
941
4
6½
Expense of Criminal Prosecutions and other Law Expenses in Ireland
30,185
0
0
30,185
0
0
Expense of Non-conforming, Seceding, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers in Ireland
13,894
18
3½
10,599
4
7¼
Salaries of the Lottery Officers in Ireland
1,072
12
4
849
4
7½
Civil contingencies in Ireland
15,000
0
0
13,596
10
10¾
Expense of the Establishment, and for the Maintenance of Inland Navigations in Ireland
4,681
0
0
4,681
0
0
In aid of Schools established by Voluntary Contributions
10,000
0
0
—
Salaries and Expenses of the Commissioners for inquiring into the Duties and Fees of the Officers of Courts of Justice in Ireland
7,324
0
0
5,474
0
8¾
CLASS VI.—DISPOSITION OF GRANTS.
SERVICES—
continued.
SUMS Voted or Granted.
SUMS Paid.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Salaries and Expenses of the Commissioners of Inquiry into the Land Revenue of the Crown in Ireland
1,671
0
0
851
10
9¼
Salaries and Expenses of the Record Commissioners in Ireland
3,500
0
0
1,976
18
5½
To pay Retired or Superannuation Allowances to Public Officers in Ireland
1,116
18
5
837
13
10¼
Expense of the Police and Watch Establishment of Dublin
26,000
0
0
26,000
0
0
For carrying on certain Public Works in Ireland
45,500
0
0
42,269
4
7½
Expense of the Commissioners of Wide Streets in Dublin
10,000
0
0
10,000
0
0
Expense of the Royal Irish Academy
300
0
0
300
0
0
Expense of the Linen Board of Ireland
19,938
9
2¾
19,938
9
2¾
Expense of maintaining and disposing of the Children now in the Protestant Charter Schools of Ireland
21,615
0
0
15,615
0
0
Expense of the Society for discountenancing Vice
7,106
0
0
7,106
0
0
Expense of the Society for promoting the Education of the Poor of Ireland
22,000
0
0
22,000
0
0
Expense of the Foundling Hospital at Dublin
34,478
0
0
34,478
0
0
Expense of the House of Industry, Hospitals, and Asylums for industrious Children in Dublin
19,750
0
0
15,000
0
0
Expense of the Richmond Lunatic Asylum in Dublin
5,640
0
0
5,640
0
0
Expense of the Hibernian Society for Soldiers Children
7,500
0
0
7,500
0
0
Expense of the Hibernian Marine Society
1,600
0
0
1,600
0
0
Expense of the Female Orphan House in Dublin
1,761
0
0
1,761
0
0
Expense of the Westmorland Lock Hospital in Dublin
2,734
0
0
2,734
0
0
Expense of the Lying-in Hospital in Dublin
2,885
0
0
2,885
0
0
Expense of Dr. Steevens's Hospital
1,663
0
0
1,663
0
0
Expense of the Fever Hospital and House of Recovery
3,692
0
0
3,692
0
0
Expense of the Hospital for Incurables at Dublin
400
0
0
400
0
0
Expense of the Establishment of the Roman Catholic Seminary in Ireland
8,928
0
0
8,928
0
0
Expense of the Cork Institution
1,900
0
0
1,900
0
0
Expense of the Dublin Society
7,000
0
0
7,000
0
0
Expense of the Farming Society of Ireland
2,500
0
0
2,500
0
0
Expense of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests
722
0
0
722
0
0
18,533,254
12
7¼
14,430,234
19
1¼
To pay off and discharge Exchequer Bills, and that the same be issued and applied towards paying off and discharging any Exchequer Bills charged on the Aids or Supplies of the years 1824 and 1825, remaining unpaid or unprovided for
30,000,000
0
0
27,432,200
0
0
To pay off and discharge Exchequer Bills issued pursuant to several Acts for carrying on Public Works and Fisheries, and for building additional Churches, outstanding and unprovided for
413,800
0
0
48,947,054
12
7¼
41,862,434
19
1¼
PAYMENTS FOR OTHER SERVICES,
Not being part of the Supplies granted for the Service of the Year.
Sums Paid to 5th January 1826.
Estimated further Miscellencous Payments.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Grosvenor Charles Bedford, Esq. on his Salary for additional trouble in preparing Exchequer Bills, pursuant to an Act 48 Geo. 3, c. 1
150
0
0
50
0
0
Expenses in the Office of the Commissioners for inquiring into the Collection and Management of the Revenue
4,000
0
0
Expenses in the Office of the Commissioners for issuing Exchequer Bills, pursuant to Acts 57 Geo. 3, c. 34 & 124, and 3 Geo. 4, c. 86
2,000
0
0
Expenses in the Office of the Commissioners for issuing Exchequer Bills for building additional Churches, per Act 58 Geo. 3, c. 45
3,000
0
0
Expenses incurred in the passing of the Act 5 Geo. 4, c. 90, for building additional Churches in Scotland
1,600
0
0
Expired Exchequer Annuities claimed
52
10
0
Paid to the Bank of England, more than received from them, to make up their Balance on account of unclaimed Dividends
44,249
0
3
1,795
3
8
55,051
10
3
1,845
3
8
55,051
10
3
TOTAL Payments for Services not voted
56,896
13
11
Amount of Sums voted
48,947,054
12
7¼
TOTAL Sums voted, and Payments for Services not voted
49,003,051
6
6¼
WAYS AND MEANS
for answering the foregoing Services.
£.
s.
d.
Duty on Sugar, and on Pensions, Offices, &c.
3,000,000
0
0
Trustees for the Payment of Naval and Military Pensions, and Civil Superannuations, per Act 3 Geo. 4, c. 51
4,470,370
0
0
East India Company, per Act 4 Geo. 4, c. 71
60,000
0
0
Sum to be brought from the Consolidated Fund, per Act 6 Geo. 4, c. 14
10,500,000
0
0
Surplus Ways and Means, per Act 6 Geo. 4, c. 134
439,166
9
10¾
Interest on Land Tax redeemed by Money
55
17
8¾
Repayments on account of Exchequer Bills issued pursuant to two Acts of the 57th year of his late Majesty, for carrying on Public Works and Fisheries in the United Kingdom
106,307
0
0
18,575,899
7
7½
Exchequer Bills voted in Ways and Means; viz. 6 Geo. 4, c. 2 6 Geo. 4, c. 70
£.
0
0
10,500,000
0
0
30,500,000
0
0
TOTAL Ways and Means
49,075,899
7
7½
TOTAL Sums voted, and Payments for Services not voted
49,003,951
6
6¼
SURPLUS Ways and Means
71,948
1
1¼
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 8th February 1826.
J. C. HERRIES.
Mem.
£.
CLASS VIII.—TRADE AND NAVIGATION.
CLASS VII.—ARREARS AND BALANCES.
[This Head, which occupies 108 folio pages in the Finance Accounts, is here omitted, as not being of general utility.]
TRADE OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.
An Account of the VALUE of all IMPORTS into, and of all EXPORTS from, the United Kingdom of GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND, during each of the Three Years ending the 5th January 1826 (calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation, and stated exclusive of the Trade between Great Britain and Ireland reciprocally).
VALUE OF EXPORTS FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM, calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation.
YEARS ending 5th January.
VALUE OF IMPORTS into the United Kingdom, calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation.
Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom.
Foreign and Colonial Merchandize.
TOTAL EXPORTS.
VALUE of the Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom Exported there from according to the Real and Declared Value thereof.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1824
35,798,707
5
0
43,804,372
18
1
8,603,904
9
1
52,408,277
7
2
35,458,048
13
6
1825
37,552,935
7
1
48,735,551
2
5
10,204,785
6
4
58,940,336
8
6
38,396,300
17
3
1826
44,137,482
6
0
47,166,020
2
11
9,169,494
8
3
56,335,514
11
2
38,877,388
7
6
FOREIGN TRADE OF GREAT BRITAIN.
An Account of the VALUE, as calculated at the Official Rates, of all IMPORTS into, and of all EXPORTS from, GREAT BRITAIN, during each of the Three Years ending the 5th January 1826; showing the Trade with Foreign Parts separately from the Trade with Ireland; and distinguishing the Amount of the Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom Exported, from the Value of Foreign and Colonial Merchandize Exported:—Also, stating the Amount of the Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom Exported from GREAT BRITAIN, according to the Real and Declared Value thereof.
TRADE OF GREAT BRITAIN WITH FOREIGN PARTS:
VALUE OF EXPORTS FROM CREAT BRITAIN, calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation.
YEARS ending 5th January.
VALUE OF IMPORTS into Great Britain, calculated at the Official Rates of valuation.
Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom.
Foreign and Colonial Merchandize.
TOTAL EXPORTS.
VALUE of the Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom Exported from Great Britain, according to the Real and Declared Value thereof.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1824
34,591,264
9
0
43,144,466
1
6
8,588,995
18
0
51,733,461
19
6
34,691,124
8
10
1825
36,146,448
0
0
48,030,036
11
4
10,188,596
9
2
58,218,633
0
6
37,573,918
0
0
1826
42,589,678
4
2
46,468,281
7
2
9,155,305
5
0
55,623,586
12
2
38,083,773
4
7
Inspector General's Office, Custom House, London, 22nd March 1826.
WILLIAM IRVING,
Inspector General of Imports and Exports.
TRADE OF GREAT BRITAIN—
continued
TRADE OF GREAT BRITAIN WITH IRELAND.
VALUE OF EXPORTS FROM GREAT BRITAIN, calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation.
YEARS ending 5th January.
VALUE OF IMPORTS into Great Britain, calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation.
Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom.
Foreign and Colonial Merchandize.
TOTAL EXPORTS.
VALUE of the Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom Exported from Great Britain, according to the Real and Declared Value thereof.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1824
5,821,036
1
11
3,141,825
11
0
1,359,376
6
5
4,501,201
17
5
3,488,591
0
8
1825
5,591,161
5
0
3,688,570
6
4
1,318,069
0
8
5,006,639
7
0
4,261,113
11
10
1826
6,544,573
5
9
3,837,336
11
7
1,437,708
17
10
5,275,045
9
5
4,962,751
8
10
TRADE OF GREAT BRITAIN WITH ALL PARTS:
VALUE OF EXPORTS FROM GREAT BRITAIN, calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation.
YEARS ending 5th January.
VALUE OF IMPORTS into Great Britain, calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation.
Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom.
Foreign and Colonial Merchandize.
TOTAL EXPORTS.
VALUE of the Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom Exported from Great Britain, according to the Real and Declared Value thereof.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1824
40,412,300
10
11
46,286,291
12
6
9,948,372
4
5
56,234,663
16
11
38,179,715
9
6
1825
41,737,609
6
0
51,718,606
17
8
11,506,665
9
10
63,225,272
7
6
41,835,031
11
10
1826
49,134,251
9
11
50,305,617
18
9
10,593,014
2
10
60,898,632
1
7
43,046,524
13
5
Inspector General's Office, Custom House, London, 22nd March 1826.
WILLIAM IRVING,
Inspector General of Imports and Exports.
TRADE OF IRELAND.
An Account of the VALUE of all IMPORTS into, and of all EXPORTS from, IRELAND; during each of the Three Years ending 5th January 1826 (calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation, and stated exclusive of the Trade with GREAT BRITAIN); distinguishing the Amount of the Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom Exported, from the Value of Foreign and Colonial Merchandize Exported:—also stating the Amount of the Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom Exported from IRELAND, according to the Real or Declared Value thereof.
VALUE OF EXPORTS FROM IRELAND, calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation.
——
VALUE of Imports into IRELAND, calculated at the Official Rates of Valuation.
Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom.
Foreign and Colonial Merchandize.
TOTAL EXPORTS.
VALUE of the Produce and Manufactures of the United Kingdom, Exported from Ireland, according to the Real or Declared Value thereof.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
YEARS ENDING
VALUE exclusive of the Trade with GREAT BRITAIN.
5th January 1824
1,207,442
16
0¼
659,906
16
7¼
14,908
11
1½
674,815
7
8¾
766,924
4
8¼
— 1825
1,406,487
7
1¼
705,514
11
0¾
16,188
17
2¼
721,703
8
3
822,382
17
3
— 1826
1,547,804
1
10½
697,738
15
9
14,189
3
3
711,927
19
0
793,615
2
11½
Inspector General's Office, Custom House, London,
WILLIAM IRVING,
21st March, 1826.
Inspector General of Imports and Exports.
NAVIGATION OF THE UNITED KINGDOM.
NEW VESSELS BUILT.—An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of the TONNAGE, that were built and registered in the several Ports of the BRITISH EMPIRE, in the Years ending the 5th January 1824, 1825, and 1826, respectively.
——
In the Years ending the 5th January.
1824.
1825.
1826.
Vessels.
Tonnage.
Vessels.
Tonnage.
Vessels.
Tonnage.
United Kingdom
594
63,151
799
91,083
975
122,479
Isles Guernsey, Jersey, and Man
10
637
33
2,136
28
1,550
British Plantations
243
22,240
342
50,522
353
50,299
TOTAL
847
86,028
1,179
143,741
1,356
174,328
VESSELS REGISTERED.—An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their TONNAGE and the Number of MEN and BOYS usually employed in Navigating the same, that belonged to the several Ports of the BRITISH EMPIRE, on the 30th September in the Years 1823, 1824, and 31st Dec. 1825, respectively.
——
On 30th Sept. 1823.
On 30th Sept. 1824.
On 31st Dec. 1825.
Vessels.
Tons.
Men.
Vessels.
Tons.
Men.
vessels.
Tons.
Men.
United Kingdom
20,573
2,275,995
147,058
20,803
2,321,953
149,742
20,087
2,298,836
146,703
Isles Guernsey, Jersey, and Man
469
26,872
3,680
477
26,361
3,806
508
28,505
3,773
British Plantations
3,500
203,393
14,726
3,496
211,273
15,089
3,579
214,875
15,059
TOTAL
24,542
2,506,760
165,474
24,776
2,559,587
168,637
24,174
2,542,216
165,535
Inspector General's Office, Custom House, London, 22nd March, 1826.
WILLIAM IRVING,
Inspector General of Imports and Exports.
VESSELS EMPLOYED IN THE FOREIGN TRADE.—An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their TONNAGE, and the Number of MEN and BOYS employed in Navigating the same (including their repeated Voyages) that entered Inwards and cleared Outwards, at the several Ports of the United Kingdom, from and to all Parts of the World (exclusive of the intercourse between GREAT BRITAIN and IRELAND respectively) during each of the Three Years ending 5th January 1826.
SHIPPING ENTERED INWARDS IN THE UNITED KINGDOM,
(Exclusive of the Intercourse between Great Britain and Ireland.)
Years ending 5th Jan.
BRITISH AND IRISH VESSELS.
FOREIGN VESSELS.
TOTAL.
Vessels.
Tons.
Men.
Vessels.
Tons.
Men.
Vessels.
Tons.
Men.
1824
11,271
1,740,859
112,244
4,069
582,996
33,828
15,340
2,323,855
146,072
1825
11,731
1,797,089
108,686
5,655
759,672
42,126
17,386
2,556,761
150,812
1826
13,503
2,143,317
123,028
6,981
959,312
52,722
20,484
3,102,629
175,750
SHIPPING CLEARED OUTWARDS FROM THE UNITED KINGDOM,
(Exclusive of the Intercourse between Great Britain and Ireland.)
BRITISH AMD IRISH VESSELS.
FOREIGN VESSELS.
TOTAL.
Vessels.
Tons.
Men.
Vessels.
Tons.
Men.
Vessels.
Tons.
Men.
1824
9,666
1,546,976
95,596
3,437
563,571
29,323
13,103
2,110,547
124,919
1825
10,156
1,657,270
103,085
5,025
746,729
38,782
15,181
2,403,999
141,867
1826
10,843
1,793,842
109,537
6,085
906,066
47,535
16,928
2,699,908
157,072
Inspector General's Office, Custom House, London, 22nd March, 1826.
WILLIAM IRVING,
Inspector General of Imports and Exports.
INDEX
TO VOL. XV.
NEW SERIES.
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Antigua, 202
B
Bank Notes payable where issued, 40, 131, 210, 558
C
Catholic Association, 532
Catholic Emancipation, 244, 958
Corn Laws, 36, 207, 293, 742, 774, 956, 1053, 1366
D
Distress of the Manufacturing Districts, 742
G
Greece, 384
I
Irish Charter Schools, 34, 897
L
Local Payment of Bank notes, 40, 131, 210, 558
P
Preventive Service, 150
R
Roman Catholic Association, 532
Roman Catholic Emancipation, 244, 958
S
Slavery in the West Indies, 202, 248
T
Tithes, 721
W
West Indies, 202, 248, 385
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Aliens Registration Bill, 498
Antigua; Slavery in, 219
Arrest for Debt, 1051
B
Bank Charter Amendment Bill, 236
Bank Notes; Forgery of, 42, 218
Banking System in Scotland, 155
Bradley, Colonel; his Petition, 1098
Bribery at Elections, 1401
Bribery at Elections Bill, 202, 733
Burmese War, 647
C
Cape of Good Hope; Currency at the, 1277
Catholic Claims, 566
Chancery, Court of, 1205
Chancery, Court of; Contempt of, 298
Chancery, Court of; Exclusion from, 276
Chancery, Court of; Delay in Taxation of Costs, 535
Charing-Cross Improvement Bill, 62, 735
Civil Contingencies, 69
Corn Importation Bill, 1122, 1135, 1203
Corn Exchange Bill, 265
Corn Laws, 269, 318, 764, 784, 831, 914, 917, 959 971
Corporate Rights in Ireland, 723
Counsel for Persons prosecuted for Felony, 589
County Elections, 633
Criminal Justice Bill, 86, 284, 733
Currency at the Cape of Good Hope, 1277
Currency; State of the, 1411
D
Debtor and Creditor Bill, 722
Diplomatic Services, 69
Distressed Manufacturers; Government Relief to, 1282
Dogs, Cruelty to, 530
E
East-India Writers Bill, 736
East-India Naval Force Bill, 740
Edinburgh; Representation of, 163
Elective Franchise; Petition from Rye for Extension of, 636
Education of the Poor in Ireland, 2, 81, 88, 227
Exchequer Bills, 281
Exportation of Machinery, 908, 1118
F
Felony; Counsel for Persons Prosecuted for, 589
First Fruits in Ireland, 47
Forgery of Bank notes, 42, 218
Freeholders in Districts Bill, 777
G
Greece; Affairs of, 1271
H
High Constable of Westminster, 1271
I
Ireland; Public Charities in, 86
Ireland; Education of the Poor in, 2, 81, 88, 227
Ireland; Tolls and Customs at Fairs in, 30
Ireland; First Fruits in, 47
Ireland; Corporate Rights in, 723
Irish Estimates, 24
Irish Newspapers, 539
Irish Church Rates Bill, 544, 718
Itinerant Parliaments, 371
J
Juries in India Bill, 1, 107
L
Larceny Bill, 85, 291
Liberty of the Press in India, 1004, 1111
Licensing System, 157, 534
Liverpool and Manchester Rail-way Bill, 89
M
Machinery; Exportation of, 908, 1118
Mauritius; Slavery at the, 1014
N
Nation; State of the, 841
National Picture Gallery, 85, 382
Navigation Laws, 649, 1144
Norbury, Lord; Petition for his Removal, 911
P
Parliaments; Itinerant, 371
Parliamentary Reform, 651
Patent Rights, 70
President of the Board of Trade; Salary of, 95, 109, 132
Press in India, 1004, 1111
Prisons in Scotland, 45
Private Bills Committees; Resolutions relative to, 371
Public Charities in Ireland, 86
R
Reform of Parliament, 651
Roman Catholic Claims, 566
Roman Catholic States; Protestant Worship in, 1275
S
Scilly Islands, 108
Scotch Banking System, 155
Scotch Representation, 163
Scotland, Prisons in, 45
Sheriff of Durham Bill, 94
Shipping Interest, 272, 1144
Slavery in the Colonies; State of, 1284
Slavery at the Mauritius, 1014
Slavery in Antigua, 219
Slavery in Demerara and Berbice, 502
Somerset, Lord Charles; Conduct of, 961
Spring Guns Bill, 719
State of the Nation, 841
Stealing in Gardens and Hot-houses, 717
T
Thames Watermen, 715
Tithes, 562
Tolls and Customs at Fairs in Ireland, 30
U
Usury Laws Repeal Bill, 280
W
Warehoused Corn Bill, 1051, 1139
Welch Mining Company Bill, 76
Westminster Abbey, 191
Westminster; High Constable of, 1271
West-India Property, 489, 577
West Indies; Administration of Justice in, 587
Wrongous Imprisonment Bill, 734
INDEX OF NAMES—HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Aberdeen, Earl of, 1073
B
Bath and Wells, Bishop of, 908
Bathurst, Earl, 261, 758, 1061
C
Caledon, Earl of, 218
Calthorpe, Lord, 38, 206, 207, 263, 293, 297, 753
Carnarvon, Earl of, 777, 1085, 1398
Clifden, Lord, 39, 218, 534
D
Dacre, Lord, 752
Darnley, Earl of, 150, 763, 908, 1082, 1400
Dudley and Ward, Viscount, 202, 206, 263, 958, 1086
E
Eldon, Earl of,
see
Ellenborough, Lord, 262, 763, 775, 1076
F
Falmouth, Lord, 1082
Farnham, Earl of, 214
F
Ferns, Bishop of, 34, 897, 907
G
Grey, Earl, 246, 754
Grosvenor, Earl, 384, 749
H
Harewood, Earl of, 1069
K
King, Lord, 34, 35, 36, 207, 208, 209, 217, 297, 532, 742, 905, 956, 1083, 1396
L
Lansdown, Marquis of, 35, 40, 42, 131, 132, 210, 218, 244, 395, 560, 721, 722, 743, 907, 1095
Lauderdale, Earl of, 131, 132, 206, 208, 216, 559, 749
Limerick, Earl of, 39, 217, 533, 763, 775, 958, 1067, 1366, 1395
Liverpool, Earl of, 41, 154, 206, 218, 294, 385, 393, 558, 561, 746, 751, 762, 1088
London, Bishop of, 721, 722
Lord Chancellor Eldon, 42, 395, 562, 1373
M
Malmsbury, Earl of, 210, 297, 748, 752, 774, 776, 1053, 1370, 1401
Mansfield, Earl of, 1087
Melville, Lord, 152, 206, 215
R
Redesdale, Lord, 385, 395, 1399
Rosebery, Lord, 1070
Rosslyn, Earl of, 214, 561, 760
S
Salisbury, Marquis of, 208, 1065, 1397
Somerset, Duke of, 1401
St. Vincent, Lord, 264
Suffield, Lord, 248, 262, 395
T
Teynham, Lord, 776
W
Westmoreland, Earl of, 1078
INDEX OF NAMES—HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Abercromby, Hon. James, 121, 163, 188, 276, 280, 1432
Acland, Sir Thomas, 381, 532
Althorp, Viscount, 378, 500, 621, 663, 840, 949
Arbuthnot, Right Hon. C. 62, 67
Ashurst, W. H. 198
Attorney General, 73, 240, 243, 287, 596, 1104, 1205
Attwood, Matthias, 243
B
Bankes, Henry, 380, 384, 799, 1124
Bankes, W. J. 576
Bankes, George, 232
Baring, Sir Thomas, 265
Baring, Alexander, 78, 101, 105, 130, 200, 219, 273, 309, 489, 523, 983, 1003, 1140, 1189, 1277, 1282
Beaumont, T. W. 961
Belgrave, Lord, 973
Benett, John, 531, 791, 829, 950, 960, 1128, 1139
Bernal, Ralph, 104, 127, 494, 498, 1331
Birch, Joseph, 1120
Bright, Henry, 83, 647, 722, 740, 833
Brougham, Henry, 317, 367, 526, 626, 839, 889, 1050, 1109, 1113, 1259, 1284
Brydges, Sir John, 265, 974
Burdett, Sir Francis, 175, 359, 531, 566, 835, 969
Butterworth, Joseph, 22, 82, 229, 234, 1103, 1352
Buxton, Thomas Fowell, 1014, 1049
C
Calcraft, John, 78, 99, 104, 118, 127, 268, 376, 381, 564, 809, 954, 971, 1112
Canning, Right Hon. George, 70, 124, 136, 149, 181, 311, 496, 528, 578, 629, 737, 764, 768, 794, 828, 918, 998, 1356
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Right Hon. Fred. Robinson) 79, 85, 87, 96, 98, 104, 105, 107, 109, 110, 121, 130, 149, 238, 242, 243, 278, 280, 282, 283, 376, 771, 878, 1125, 1204, 1278
Chetwynd, Sir George, 719
Clerk, Sir George, 172
Clifton, Lord, 1128
Coffin, Sir Isaac, 92, 120
Colborne, N. R. 279, 375, 384
Copley, Sir John,
see
Cripps, Joseph, 144
Curteis, E. W. 267
Curwen, John Christian, 120, 358
D
Davies, Colonel, 77, 949, 1106
Dawson, G. 55, 723
Denison, W. J. 121
Denison, J. E. 663
Denman, Thomas, 201, 240, 242, 286, 502, 520, 564, 630, 736, 1268, 1352
Douglas, Keith, 179
Drummond, Home, 44, 181, 243
Dundas, Right Hon. William, 169
E
Ellice, Edward, 44, 105, 305, 767, 1195, 1281, 1440
Ellis, C. R. 498, 518, 1341
Ellis Thomas, 543
Ellison, C. 649
Estcourt, T. 534
F
Farquhar, Sir R. 1037, 1050
Fergusson, Sir Ronald, 174
Fitzgerald, Maurice, 17, 22, 223
Folkestone, Viscount, 832, 835
G
Gascoyne, Isaac, 89
Glenorchy, Lord, 136, 679
Gordon, W. 1197, 1436
Goulburn, Right Hon. Henry, 10, 22, 25, 26, 28, 51, 83, 541, 547, 913
Gower, Lord Francis Leveson, 705
Grant, Right Hon. Charles, 1201
Grant, J. P. 170, 241, 735, 1435
Grattan, James, 29
Grenfell, Pascoe, 43, 218, 243, 300, 910
Gurney, Hudson, 129, 198, 202, 236, 240, 1279, 1407, 1410
H
Hamilton, Lord Archibald, 79, 179, 381
Herries, J. C. 1281
Heygate, Alderman, 1439
Hill, Sir George, 126
Hobhouse, John Cam, 133, 186, 501, 534, 680, 1111, 1273
Horton, Wilmot, 513, 589, 964, 1047, 1309
Hume, Joseph, 1, 2, 27, 46, 57, 69, 81, 84, 86, 87, 88, 95, 97, 104, 107, 109, 127, 157, 191, 196, 202, 244, 265, 274, 275, 288, 298, 303, 384, 530, 537, 540, 562, 565, 577, 647, 841, 896, 908, 1098, 1110, 1118, 1199
Huskisson, Right Hon. William, 79, 93, 115, 155, 342, 358, 650, 816, 837, 915, 992, 1119, 1140, 1142, 1144
Hutchinson, C. H., 23
I
Ingleby, Sir W., 1138
Inglis, Sir R. H., 60, 550, 556, 1271, 1275
Irving, John, 43, 275, 283, 990
J
James, William, 769
Johnson, Colonel, 42
K
Knatchbull, Sir E., 269, 838, 996
L
Lamb, Hon. William, 712
Lamb, Hon. George, 589
Lethbridge, Sir Thomas, 784, 835, 933, 959, 1122, 1203
Lewis, Frankland, 13, 84, 88, 777, 981
Leycester, Ralph, 240
Littleton, E. J., 76, 371, 1120
Lockhart, J. I., 56, 104, 299
Long, Sir Charles, 382
Lord Advocate of Scotland, 45, 180
Lushington, Dr., 493, 1255, 1280, 1326
M
Maberly, John, 75, 103, 106, 129, 283, 835, 894
Maberly, W. L., 356, 1137
Manning, William, 223, 495
Martin, Richard, 131, 520, 530, 531, 615, 709
Milton, Lord, 82, 351, 380, 806, 952, 1051, 1129, 1282, 1405
Monck, J. B., 28, 241, 834
Moore, Peter, 77
N
Newport, Sir John, 22, 25, 29, 47, 60, 124, 198, 235, 541, 548, 556, 731, 812
North, John, 914
Nugent, Lord, 587
O
Ommaney, Sir F. 105
Onslow, Mr. Serjeant, 276, 280
P
Palmerston, Viscount, 78, 1106
Pearse, John, 219
Peel, Right Hon. Robert, 19, 43, 45, 46, 85, 86, 94, 102, 106, 193, 194, 200, 201, 275, 281, 284, 286, 288, 289, 291, 292, 299, 316, 375, 498, 502, 530, 532, 553, 565, 605, 717, 732, 734, 772, 939, 980, 1109, 1131, 1249, 1405, 1424
Peel, William, 89
Pelham, C. 371
Philips, George, 94, 280, 335, 766, 808, 1121
Phillimore, Dr. 1012, 1113
Portman, E. B. 936
R
Rice, Spring, 2, 30, 54, 241, 544, 723, 726
Ridley, Sir M. W. 44, 67, 120, 272, 279, 378, 634, 980, 1193, 1436
Robertson, Alexander, 100, 274, 800, 895, 1439
Robinson, Right Hon. Frederick,
see
Rumbold, C. E. 1199
Russell, Lord John, 289, 636, 649, 651, 733, 812, 1004, 1114, 1401, 1409
S
Scarlett, James, 277, 289, 290, 291, 622, 911, 1010
Sebright, Sir John, 840
Smith, John, 24, 29, 227, 234, 557, 718, 733, 773, 982, 1011
Smith, R. 106, 1267
Smith, William, 230, 490, 497, 502, 554, 577, 1272
Solicitor General, (Sir C. Wetherell) 277, 300, 308, 536, 539, 625, 1239
Somerset, Lord E. 968
Speaker, The (Right Hon. C. M. Sutton), 70, 195
Stanley, E. G. S. 90, 977, 1129, 1142
Stuart Wortley, J. 78, 380, 381
Sumner, Holme, 266, 279, 302, 304, 305, 355, 938, 976, 1134
Sutton, Right Hon. C. M.
see
Sykes, Daniel, 290, 495, 535, 539, 633, 723, 778
T
Taylor, M. A. 1246
Thompson, Alderman, 271
Tierney, Right Hon. George, 113, 144, 149, 766, 1402
Tindal, N.C. 617, 1270
Trant, W. H. 555, 737, 1013
Trench, Colonel, 232
Twiss, Horace, 287, 609
W
Warre, J. A. 492, 1405
Wells, J. 43
Wetherell, Sir Charles,
see
Whitbread, S. 375
Whitmore, W. 271, 318, 370, 802, 841, 950, 989
Williams, John, 314, 603, 826, 1229
Wilson, Carus, 232, 932, 989
Wilson, Sir Robert, 267, 501, 834, 1273, 1408
Wilson, Thomas, 104, 128, 266, 496, 771, 1409, 1439
Wodehouse, E. 359, 769, 827
Wood, Colonel, 77, 804, 979, 1123
Wood, Alderman Matthew, 269, 271, 1408
Wrottesley, Sir John, 196, 283, 772,
Wynn, C. W. W. 1, 107, 199, 563, 647, 648, 739 1007, 1111, 1405
Wynn, Sir W. W. 1123, 1403
END OF VOL. XV.