COBBETT'S
Parliamentary Debates,
DURING THE
FIRST SESSION OF THE THIRD PARLIAMENT
OF THE
UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT-BRITAIN AND IRELAND
AND OF THE
KINGDOM OF GREAT-BRITAIN THE TWENTIETH,
Appointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-eighth Day of August, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Six; and from thence continued, by Prorogation, to the Fifteenth Day of December, in the Forty-seventh Year of the Reign of his Majesty King GEORGE the Third, Annoque Domini One Thousand Eight Hundred and Six.
VOL. VIII.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
BETWEEN THE 15th OF DECEMBER, 1806, AND THE 4th OF MARCH, 1807.
LONDON:
PRINTED BY J. BRETTELL, MARSHALL-STREET, GOLDEN-SQUARE:
PUBLISHED BY R. BAGSHAW, BRYDGES-STREET, COVENT-GARDEN; AND SOLD ALSO BY J. BUDD, PALL-MALL; R. FAULDER, NEW BOND-STREET; H. D. SYMONDS, PATERNOSTER-ROW; BLACKS AND PARRY, LEADENHALL-STREET; AND J. ARCHER, DUBLIN.
1807.
ADVERTISEMENT.
THE present Volume comprises the period between the Opening of the First Session of the Third Parliament of the United Kingdom, on the 15th of December, 1806, and the 4th of March, 1807. In the pages immediately succeeding the Table of Contents, will be found a correct List of the Ministry; together with a List of the Members returned for the New Parliament in December, 1806. The Papers relative to the Negociation with France are given at page 92; and the Appendix contains the whole of the Tables and Calculations relative to the New Plan of Finance, proposed to Parliament in January 1807, by Lord Henry Petty, then Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Annual Financial Accounts, will be given in the Appendix to the Ninth Volume.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
TO VOL. VIII.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
1806. Dec. 15. Opening of the Session—The lord chancellor
1
19. The Lords Commissioners' speech—The earl of Jersey, lord Somers, lord Hawkesbury, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Radnor, lord Grenville, earl of Radnor
15
22. Battle of Maida; Vote of Thanks to sir J. Stuart, &c.—Lord Grenville
213
1807. Jan. 2. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, lord Eldon, lord Grenville, lord Eldon, earl Grosvenor, duke of Clarence
257
Negociation with France—Lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, lord Sidmouth, earl Grosvenor, lord Eldon, lord Grenville, lord Eldon, earl of Lauderdale
259
9. Malt Duty bill—The lord chancellor
427
12. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Lord Hawkesbury, lord Grenville
431
21. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Lord Grenville, earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville
468
Feb. 2. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Lord Grenville, earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville, earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury
601
4. Scotch Judicature Bill—Lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, lord Grenville, lord Eldon
602
4. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Lord Grenville, lord Eldon, earl Grosvenor, lord Hawkesbury, lord Holland, duke of Clarence, lord chancellor, lord Grenville, duke of Clarence, lord Holland, bishop of London, lord Eldon, lord Grenville
613
5. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Lord Grenville, duke of Clarence, duke of Gloucester, earl Morton, earl of Westmoreland, earl of Selkirk, lord Sidmouth, earl of Roslyn, earl St. Vincent, lord King, lord Northesk, lord Eldon, bishop of Durham, earl of Moira, lord Hawkesbury, lord Holland, earl of Suffolk
657
6. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Lord Grenville, lord Hardwicke, lord Grenville, lord Redesdale, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Carnarvon, lord Chancellor, earl Morton, earl Stanhope, lord Redesdale, earl of Lauderdale, duke of Montrose, lord Holland, duke of Clarence
677
9. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Lord Grenville, lord Redesdale, lord Grenville, Bishop of London, earl St. Vincent
691
10. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Lord Redesdale, earl of Buckinghamshire, duke of Norfolk, earl of Westmoreland, lord Grenville
701
12. Lord De Dunstanville's Indemnity Bill—The lord chancellor, lord Walsingham
724
16. Scotch Judicature Bill—Lord Grenville, duke of Montrose, lord Eldon, lord Hawkesbury, lord Ellenborough, lord Grenville, earl of Suffolk, lord chancellor
788
27. Insolvent Debtors—Lord Holland
1028
Taxation—The earl of Warwick, lord Grenville, earl of Warwick, earl of Selkirk, earl of Warwick
1029
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Dec. 15. Choice of a Speaker—Mr. Bragge Bathurst, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Abbot, mr. T. Grenville
2
19. The Lords Commissioners' Speech—The Speaker, hon. Wm. Lamb, mr. John Smith, mr. Canning, lord Howick, lord Castlereagh, lord Howick, mr. sec. Windham
35
20. The Lords Commissioners' Speech—Lord Howick, mr. Canning, lord Howick, mr. Perceval, lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, sir J. Pulteney, mr. Johnstone, lord H. Petty
82
22. Battle of Maida: Vote of Thanks to sir J. Stuart, &c.—Mr. sec. Windham, sir John Doyle, mr. Johnstone, mr. sec. Windham
215
23. Galway Election Writ—Lord Howick, mr. Corry, lord Howick
225
24. Galway Election Writ—Lord Howick, mr. Corry
227
Salary of the Chairman of the Ways and Means—Mr. Biddulph, lord Howick, mr. Biddulph
228
Westminster Election Petition—Lord Folkestone, mr. Sheridan, mr. Perceval, mr. Sheridan, lord Folkestone
232
29. Navy Estimates—Mr. T. Grenville
236
30. Sugar Distilleries—Lord Temple, mr. Dent, lord Temple, mr. Baker
238
Woollen Trade—Lord Temple
240
Negociation with France—Mr. Perceval, lord Howick, mr. Perceval, lord Howick, mr. Canning, lord Howick, mr. Canning, mr. Sheridan, mr. Perceval, lord Yarmouth
241
1807. Jan. 1. Resolutions relative to Private Bills—Lord Howick, mr. Johnstone, mr. Bathurst, mr. Fuller, mr. Fellowes, mr. Johnstone, lord Howick
254
5. Thetford Election Petition—Mr. Whitbread, mr. Mingay, mr. Whitbread, mr. Mingay, mr. Bathurst, the Attorney-general, mr. Whitbread, mr. Rose, lord Howick
302
Negociation with France—Lord Howick, lord Yarmouth, lord Howick, mr. Montague, sir T. Turton, mr. Whitbread, mr. Canning, lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, lord Howick, mr. Perceval, lord Howick, mr. Perceval
305
6. Thetford Election Petition—Mr. Whitbread, mr. Mingay, mr. Tierney, the Attorney-general, mr. C. Wynne, the Solicitor-general, mr. Roscoe, mr. Bathurst, mr. Johnstone
418
Dublin Election Petition—Mr. C. Wynne, mr. Calcraft, the Speaker, mr, C. Wynne
421
7. Ordnance Estimates—Mr. Calcraft
423
8. Ordnance Estimates—Mr. Johnstone, mr. Calcraft, mr. Johnstone, mr. Calcraft
425
Military Establishments of the Country—Lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham, lord Castlereagh, mr. Windham, lord Castlereagh
426
9. Battle of Maida—Mr. Wilder, mr. sec. Windham
429
Ordnance Estimates—Mr. Calcraft, mr. Johnstone, mr. Calcraft
429
12. Conduct of Mr. Cawthorne—General Porter, mr, Cawthorne, general Porter, mr. Cawthorne, gen. Porter
432
Jan. 12. Conduct of Lord Wellesley—Lord Folkestone, lord Howick, lord Folkestone, lord Howick, lord Folkestone
433
Oak Bark Bill—Lord Folkestone, lord Temple
435
Irish Election Bill—Sir John Newport
436
Military Establishments—Lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham, lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham
438
13. Conduct of Lord Wellesley—Mr. W. Pole
443
14. American Treaty—General Gascoyne, lord Howick
444
16. Conduct of Mr. Cawthorne—Lord Howick, general Porter, mr. Cawthorne, lord Howick
450
Order of Council relative to Neutrals—Mr. Perceval, lord Howick, mr. Perceval, lord Howick, mr. Perceval
451
Jan. 16. Army Estimates—Mr. Johnstone, the Secretary at War, mr. Calcraft, mr S. Bourne, lord Temple, mr. Rose, lord Howick, mr. Perceval, mr. Montague, mr. Biddulph, mr. Calcraft, mr. Montague, mr. Vansittart, mr. Ruthven, sir R. Williams, lord Castlereagh, the Secretary at War, mr. Johnstone, lord Howick, mr. Perceval, lord Howick, mr. Whitbread, mr. Perceval, lord Howick, mr. Johnstone, the Speaker, lord H. Petty, mr. Fuller, mr. Johnstone
453
20. Neutral Trade: Buenos Ayres, &c.—Sir T. Turton, lord Howick, sir T. Turton, lord Howick, mr. Perceval
466
21. Londonderry Election Petition—General Walpole, mr. W. Dundas, general Walpole, mr. W. Dundas, sir J. Newport, mr. W. Dundas, mr. Perceval, general Walpole, lord Howick, mr. Rose, mr. C. Wynne, lord G. Beresford
469
Army Estimates—Lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham, the Secretary at War, lord Castlereagh, mr. sec. Windham, mr. Perceval, lord Howick, sir J. Doyle, mr. Johnstone, the Secretary at War, lord H. Petty
472
23. Militia Officers—Lord Castlereagh
513
Criminal and Pauper Lunatics—Mr. C. Wynne, mr. S. Bourne, mr. C. Wynne.
514
Conduct of Mr. Cawthorne—General Porter, mr. Cawthorne, lord Howick, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. W. Herbert, general Gascoyne, lord Folkestone, the Attorney-general, mr. Bathurst, the Attorney-general, capt. Herbert, the Attorney-general, general Gascoyne, lord W. Russell, mr. R. Ward, the Attorney-general, mr. Adam, mr. Hurst, lord Howick, mr. S. Stanhope, mr. Bankes, lord Howick
515
Petition of the Electors of Lancaster respecting Mr. Cawthorne—Lord G. Cavendish, capt. Herbert, lord G. Cavendish, mr. Cawthorne, mr. S. Stanhope, lord Stanley, mr. S. Bourne, mr. S. Stanhope, the Speaker, lord Howick
526
Navy Estimates—Mr. T. Grenville, mr. Johnstone, mr. Rose, mr. Perceval, lord H. Petty, admiral Markham, mr. Perceval, mr. Rose, mr. T. Grenville, mr. Rose, mr. T. Grenville, mr. Vansittart, sir J. Newport, mr. Rose, mr. Ruthven, mr. Rose, mr. Vansittart
529
Army Estimates—Sir James Pulteney, sir J. Doyle, mr. Johnstone, mr. Rose, mr. H. Thornton, mr. Jacob, lord H. Petty
536
26. Oak Bark Bill—Mr. W. Herbert, mr. Wilberforce, lord Temple, mr. Rose, mr. Sheridan, mr. Corry, mr. Whitbread, mr. Grattan
549
Conduct of Lord Wellesley—Lord Folkestone, lord Howick, lord Folkestone, sir J. Anstruther, lord Folkestone, sir J. Anstruther, mr. W. Keene, mr. Bankes, mr. Sheridan, lord Folkestone, mr. Sheridan, mr. Whitbread, mr. W. Pole, mr. Sheridan, mr. R. Thornton
551
27. Scotch Clergy Bill—The Lord Advocate, mr. W. Dundas, mr. Perceval, mr. W. Dundas, mr. Horner, the Lord Advocate
557
28. Barrack Supplies—Lord A. Hamilton, mr. S. Bourne, lord H. Petty
559
Freehold Estates Bill—The Solicitor-general, mr. C. Wynne
561
Jan. 29. Slave-Trade Abolition Bill.—Mr. Wilberforce, lord Howick
563
New Plan of Finance—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Johnstone, lord H. Petty, mr H. Addington, mr. Parnell, mr. Corry, mr. Johnstone
564
Feb. 2. Treasurership of the Navy—Mr. Sheridan
604
Irish Treasury Bills' Bill—Sir J. Newport, mr. Johnstone, sir J. Newport, mr. Johnstone
605
Third Military Report: Conduct of Mr. Alexander Davison—Lord A. Hamilton, the Speaker, lord A. Hamilton, lord H. Petty, the Attorney-general
606
3. Scotch Clergy Bill—Mr. Kenrick, mr. Wilberforce, the Speaker, mr. Adam, the Lord Advocate
610
Feb. 4. Order in Council respecting Neutral Vessels—Mr. Perceval, the Advocate-general, mr. Jacob, lord Castlereagh, lord Temple, sir T. Turton, lord Howick, mr. Perceval
620
5. Third Military Report: Conduct of Mr. Alexander Davison—Mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, mr. Perceval, mr. Rose, lord A. Hamilton, lord H. Petty
674
6 Petition respecting the Hampshire Election—Mr. A. Smith, mr. Tierney, mr. C. Wynne, the Speaker, mr. Canning, mr. Broderick, mr. A. Smith, lord Temple, mr. Canning, mr. Tierney, mr. Perceval, mr. C. Wynne, mr. Hurst, mr. Rose, mr. S. Bourne, mr. Fremantle, mr. S. Bourne, lord Howick
684
Massacre at Vellore—Mr. Howard, mr Tierney
689
9. Grenville Election Act—Mr. Simeon, mr. Bankes, mr. Simeon, mr. C. Wynne, the Attorney-general, mr. Simeon, lord Folkestone, mr. C. Wynne
695
Foreign Property in the Funds—Mr. Bankes, lord H. Petty
698
10. Sinecure Places and Pensions—Mr. Biddulph, lord Folkestone, lord H. Petty, mr. Wilberforce, lord H. Petty, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Fawkes, mr. Ellison, mr Biddulph, mr. Calvert
703
Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Mr. Hibbert, lord Howick, gen. Gascoyne, mr. W. Plumer, gen. Gascoyne, mr. T. W. Plumer, lord Howick, mr. Hibbert, lord H. Petty, capt. Herbert, mr. H. Addington, mr. I. H. Browne, lord Temple, mr. Tierney, mr. Babington, mr. Hibbert, lord Howick
717
11. Finance, Committee—Mr. Biddulph, mr. Bathurst, mr. Calvert, mr. Bathurst, lord H. Petty, mr. Johnstone, mr. Fremantle
722
12. New Plan of Finance: Lord Castlereagh's Resolutions—Lord Castlereagh, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose
725
13. Petition respecting the Hampshire Election—Mr. A. Smith, sir H. Mildmay, mr. Fremantle, sir H. Mildmay, mr. Broderick, mr. W. Herbert, mr. Jeffery, mr. Biddulph, mr. Fremantle, mr. C. Jenkinson, mr. Tierney, mr. S. Stanhope, the Speaker, mr. Tierney, sir H. Mildmay, mr. Canning, mr. W. Adam, lord Folkestone, mr. Johnstone, mr. Bathurst, mr. Perceval, lord Howick, mr. Rose, mr. Calcraft, the Solicitor-general
747
16. New Plan of Finance—Lord Castlereagh, lord H. Petty, mr. Long, mr. Tierney, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, lord Castlereagh, mr. Giles, lord Castlereagh, mr. Giles, mr. D. Giddy
794
17. Scotch Clergy Bill—The Lord Advocate, the Speaker, mr. W. Dundas, lord A. Hamilton, the Lord Advocate
838
Sugar Drawbacks—Lord H. Petty
840
18. Barrack Abuses—Mr. Robson, lord Howick, col. Barry, mr. Robson, lord Howick, mr. Robson
843
South-Sea Trade Bill—Sir C. Price, mr. Rose, lord Temple, mr. Jacob, mr. Tierney, sir C. Price, mr. Rose
847
Sugar Drawbacks—Mr. Hobhouse
849
1807. Feb. 18. Additional Duty on Foreign Brandy—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, gen. Gascoyne
850
Freehold Estates Bill—The Solicitor-general, mr. W. Herbert, mr. Fellowes, the Master of the Rolls, the Solicitor-general, mr. Canning, the Solicitor-general, mr. Canning, the Attorney-general, mr. Perceval, mr. Morris
851
New Plan of Finance—Mr. S. Bourne, mr. H. Thornton, lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, lord Howick, lord. H. Petty
860
19. Poor-Laws Bill—Mr. Whitbread, mr. Rose, mr. Whitbread, mr. Rose, mr. Lee Keck, mr. Calvert, mr. Ellison, mr. S. Stanhope, lord Howick, mr. S. Bourne, mr. Whitbread, sir J. Newport, mr. Bathurst, mr. Whitbread
865
New Plan of Finance—Sir J. Pulteney, mr. H. Thornton. mr. Johnstone, mr. Bankes, mr. Rose, mr. Corry, mr. Perceval, lord H. Petty, lord Castlereagh, mr. Huskisson, mr. Vansittart, mr. Canning
921
20. Mutiny Bill: Roman Catholics—Lord Howick, mr. Yorke, lord Howick
931
Westminster Election Petition—Mr. Sheridan, lord Folkestone, lord Howick, lord Folkestone, the Attorney-general, mr. Perceval, mr. P. Moore, lord Folkestone
932
Irish Miscellaneous Services: Roman Catholic College at Maynooth—Mr. H. A. Herbert, sir J. Newport, mr. Corry, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Perceval, sir J. Newport, mr. Herbert, mr. Perceval, sir J. Newport, mr. Perceval, mr. Grattan, mr. Bankes, captain Herbert, lord Stanley
937
Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—General Gascoyne, lord Howick, mr. Fuller, general Gascoyne, mr. Hibbert, sir C. Pole, mr. Wilberforce, mr. Howorth, lord Howick, general Gascoyne, sir P. Francis, mr. Roscoe, mr. R. Thornton, mr. S. Stanhope
940
23. Poor-Laws Bill—Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Morris, the Speaker, mr. Morris
944
Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Mr. Manning, lord Howick, general Gascoyne, mr. Roscoe, mr. Lushington, mr. Fawkes, lord Mahon, lord Milton, mr. Bathurst, sir J. Doyle, the Solicitor-general, mr. Hibbert, mr. Wilberforce, sir J. Doyle, mr. Manning, mr. H. Addington, earl Percy
946
26. Mr. Paull's Petition respecting the Westminster Election—Lord Folkestone, mr. Sheridan, lord Folkestone, the Speaker, lord Howick, lord Folkestone, mr. Sheridan, lord Howick, the Speaker, lord Folkestone, lord Howick, lord Folkestone, Mr. Adam, lord Folkestone
997
New Plan of Finance—Lord Castlereagh
1004
Carnatic Papers—Sir T. Turton, sir J. Anstruther, mr. Grant, sir J. Anstruther, mr. Grant, sir A. Wellesley, mr. R. Thornton, mr. Tierney, lord Folkestone, mr. H. Addington, mr. S. Stanhope, sir T. Turton, sir A. Wellesley, sir T. Turton, mr. Fuller, mr. Sheridan
1018
27. Petition from St. Martin's Le Grand respecting the Westminster Election—Mr. Biddulph, lord Howick, mr. C. Wynne, lord Temple, mr. Fuller, mr. Whitbread, the Speaker, mr. Biddulph, general Vyse, mr. Lyttleton, mr. Lamb, mr. Sheridan, mr. Robinson, mr. Adam, mr. Biddulph, mr. Sheridan
1033
Slave-Trade Abolition Bill—Sir C. Pole, mr. Hughan, mr. A. Browne, mr. Barham, mr. Courtenay, sir R. Milbanke, mr. Montague, mr. Hibbert, mr. Bathurst, mr. Jacob, mr. Windham, mr. Whitbread, mr. Fuller, mr. Herbert, lord Howick, general Gascoyne
1040
March 2. Mr. Paull's Petition respecting the Westminster Election—Lord Folkestone, mr. Sheridan, mr. P. Moore, lord Folkestone, mr. Sheridan, lord Howick, mr. T. Grenville, mr. Baker, the Attorney-General, the Speaker, general Phipps, the Speaker, lord Howick, lord A. Hamilton, mr. Whitbread, mr. Baker, the Speaker
1056
1807. March 3 New Plan of Finance—Sir J. Pulteney, lord H. Petty
1070
4. Mutiny Bill—Lord Howick, mr. Yorke
1073
Committee of Supply: Prussia—Lord H. Petty, mr. Bankes, lord H. Petty
1074
Committee of Ways and Means: Budget—Lord H. Petty, mr. Rose, lord H. Petty, Mr. Fellowes, sir T. Turton, mr. Vansittart
1075
Irish Miscellaneous Services: Roman Catholic College at Maynooth—Mr. Perceval, sir J. Newport, mr. Bankes, lord Mahon, Mr. Wilberforce, lord Howick
1079
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS, PETITIONS, LISTS, &c.
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
The Lords Commissioners' Speech on Opening the Session
15
Address of the Commons on the Lords Commissioners' Speech
39
Mr. Canning's Amendment to the Address of the Commons on the Lords Commissioners' Speech
55
Papers relative to the Negociation with France, presented, by his Majesty's command, to both Houses of Parliament, 22d December, 1806
92
Declaration of the King of Great Britain; dated Oct. 21, 1806
209
Message from the King relative to Prussia
256
Tables and Calculations respecting the New Plan of Finance
Appendix
PETITIONS.
Petition of the Electors of Lancaster respecting Mr. Cawthorne
526
Petition respecting the Hampshire Election
526
Petitions against the Slave-Trade Abolition Bill
829
Petition from Mr. Paull respecting the Westminster Election
997
Petition from the Parish of St. Martin's-le-Grand respecting, the Westminster Election
1033
LISTS.
List of the Minority on Mr. Asheton Smith's Motion, relative to the Petition respecting the Hampshire Election, February 13, 1807
787
List of his Majesty's Ministers as it stood at the Opening of the Session, December 15, 1806
xiii
List of the House of Commons as it stood at the Opening of the Session, Dec. 15, 1806
xiv
LIST OF HIS MAJESTY'S MINISTERS AS IT STOOD AT THE OPENING OF THE SESSION, DECEMBER 15, 1806.
Cabinet Ministers
Viscount Sidmouth
President of the council.
Lord Frskine
Lord High Chancellor.
Lord Holland
Lord Privy Seal
Lord Grenville
First Lord of the Treasury (Prime Minister).
The Right Hon. Thomas Grenville
First Lord of the Admiralty.
Earl of Moira
Master-general of the Ordnance.
Earl Spencer
Secretary of State for the Home Department.
Lord Howick
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
Right Hon. William Windham
Secretary of State for the Department of War and the Colonies.
Lord Ellenborough
Lord Chief Justice of the Court of King's Bench.
Lord Henry Petty
Chancellor and Under-Treasurer of the Exchequer.
Earl Fitz William
(A Seat without an Office).
Not of the Cabinet.
The Right Hon. George Tierney
President of the Board of Controul for the Affairs of India.
Earl of Derby
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster.
Lord Auckland
President of the Board of Trade.
Right Hon. Richard Fitzpatrick
Secretary at War.
Right Hon. Richard Brinsley Sheridan
Treasurer of the Navy.
Earl Temple
Joint Paymaster-general.
Lord John Townshend
Earl of Buckinghamshire
Joint Paymaster-general.
Earl of Carysfort
Right Hon. Nicholas Vansittart
Secretaries of the Treasury.
William Henry Fremantle, Esq
Sir William Grant
Master of the Rolls.
Sir Arthur Pigott
Attorney-General.
Sir Samuel Romilly
Solicitor-General.
PERSONS IN THE MINISTRY OF IRELAND.
His Grace the Duke of Bedford
Lord Lieutenant.
Right Hon. George Ponsonby
Lord High Chancellor.
Right Hon. William Elliott
Chief Secretary.
Right Hon. Sir John Newport
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
AN ALPHABETICAL LIST
AS RETURNED FOR THE NEW PARLIAMENT,
Which met on the 15th of December, 1806
[THOSE PRINTED THUS * ARE NEW MEMBERS
Abbot, right honourable Charles, Speaker, Oxford University, Heytesbury
Abercromby, honourable Geo., Clackmannan-shire
Acheson, lord viscount, Armagh county
*A'Court, sir W. P. A. bart.; Heytesbury
Adair, Robert, Camelford
*Adam, Wm., Kincardine-shire
Adams, Charles, Weymouth, and Melcombe Regis
Adams, William, Totness
Addington, right honourable John Hiley, Harwich
Althorp, lord viscount, Northampton county
Andrews, Miles Peter, Bewdley
Anson, George, Litchfield
*Anstruther, right honourable sir John, bart. ; Craill, &c.
Antonie, William Lee, Bedford borough
Archdall, Mervyn, Fermanagh
Ashley, hon. Cropley, Dorchester
*Atherley, Arth., Southampton
Aubrey, sir John, bart. ; Aldeburgh, Suffolk
Babington, Thomas, Leicester borough
Bagenal, Walter, Catherlogh county
Bagwell, William, Clonmell
Baillie, Evan, Bristol
Baillie, George, Berwick-shire
Baker, John, Canterbury
Baker, Wm., Hertford county
Bampfylde, sir Charles W. bart.; Exeter
Bankes, Henry, Corfe Castle
Barclay, George, Bridport
Barclay, sir Robert, bart.; Newtown, Hants
Barham, Joseph Foster, Oakhampton, Stockbridge
*Baring, Alexander, Taunton
*Baring, Henry, Bossiney
*Baring, T., Chipping Wycombe
Barlow, H., Pembroke borough
Barne, Snowdon, Dunwich
*Barnett, James, Rochester
*Barry, John, Cavan
Bastard, Edmund, Dartmouth
Bastard, John Pollexfen, Devon
Bathurst. right hon. C., Bristol
Beach, Mich. Hicks, Cirencester
Beaumont, Thomas Richard, Northumberland
*Beckford, William, Hindon
*Bennett, honourable Henry Grey, Shrewsbury
Benyon, Richard, Wallingford
Beresford, lord George Thomas, Londonderry county
Beresford, John Claudius, Waterford county
Berkeley, honourable George C., Gloucester county
*Bernard, lord visct., Youghall
*Bernard, Scrope, St. Mawes
Bernard, Thomas, King's County
Bertle, Albemarle, Stamford
*Bewicke, Calv., Winchelsea
*Biddulph, Robert Myddelton, Denbigh borough
Blackburne, J. Lancaster county
*Blayney, lord, Old Sarum
Bligh, Thomas, Meath
Bond, right hon. Nathanael, Corfe Castle
*Bonham, Henry, Leominster
Bootle, Edward Wilbraham, Newcastle-under-Lyme
Bourne, Wm. Sturges, Christchurch
*Bouverie, hon. B., Downton
*Bouverie, hon. D. P., Downton
Bouverie, honourable Edward, Northampton borough
Boyle, lord, visct, Cork county
*Boyle, hon. C., Bandon Bridge
Bradshaw, hon. A. C., Honiton
Bradshaw, R. Haldane, Brackley
Brandling, Charles John, Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Brodie, James, Elginshire
Brodrick, hon. W., Whitchurch
Brogden, James, Launceston
*Bromley, Hen., Worcester city
Brooke, Charles, Chippenham
*Brooke, H. V., Donegal
Brooke, lord, Warwick borough
Brooke, Thomas Newton, Lane.
*Browne, Anthony, Heydon
Browne, right hon. Denis, Mayo
Browne, Is. Hawk., Bridgenorth
Bruce, lord, Marlborough
Bruce, Patrick Craufurd, Rye
Buller, Edward, East Looe
Buller, James, Exeter
*Buller, James, West Looe
Buller, John, East Looe
Bullock, John, Essex
Bunbury, sir Thomas Charles, bart.; Suffolk
Burghersh, lord, Lyme Regis
*Burrell, sir Charles Mer., bart.; New Shoreham
Burton, Francis, Oxford city
Burton, hon. Franc. Nath., Clare
Butler, honourable C. Harward, Kilkenny city
Butler, hon. J., Kilkenny county
Byng, George, Middlesex
Calcraft, John, Rochester
Calvert, J., Huntingdon borough
Calvert, N., Hertford borough
*Callander, sir John, bart.; Berwick upon Tweed
*Camphell, Arch., Renfrew, &c.
*Campbell, George, Carmar then borough
*Campbell, H. F., Nairnshire
Campbell, lord J. Argyll-shire
Campbell, John, Inverary, &c.
Canning, right hon. George, Newtown, Hants
Canning, George, Sligo, borough
Carew, right hon. R. Pole, Fowey
*Carew, Robert Shapland, Wexford county
Cartwright, William Ralph, Northampton county
Castlerereagh, lord viscount, Plympton Earle
Caulfield, hon. Henry, Armagh county
Cavendish, lord G. A. H., Derliy county
*Cavendish, G. H. compton, Aylesbury
Cavendish, Wm., Derby borough
*Cawthorne, John Fenton, Lancaster borough
*Champernowne, A., Saltash
Chaplin, C., Lincoln county
Chester, Chas., Castle Rising
Chichester, lord Spencer, Carrickfergus
Cholmondeley, Thomas, Chester county
Clements, Henry John, Leitrim
*Clinton, W. H., Borough bridge
*Clive, lord viscount, Ludlow
Clive, hon. Robert, Ludlow
Clive, Wm., Bishop's Castle
*Cochrane, lord, Honiton
*Cocks, hon. Edw. C., Reigaet
Codrington, Chris. Tewkesbury
Coke, Daniel Parker, Nottingham town
Coke, Edward, Derby borough
Coke, Thos. William, Norfolk
Colborne, Nicolas William Ridley, Malmesbury
Colclough, J., Wexford county
Cole, hon. Galb. L., Fermanagh
Combe, Harvey Chris., London
Cooke, Bryan, Melton
*Cooper, Edw. S., Sligo county
Cornewall, sir George, bart.; Hereford county
Cornwallis, hon. William, Eye
Corry, right honourable Isaac, Newport, Hants
*Cotes, John, Salop
*Cotterell, sir John Geers, bart.; Hereford county
*Cotton, Stapleton, Newark
Courtenay, John, Appleby
Cowper, hon. E. Spencer, Hertford borough
*Craufurd, Charles, East Retford
*Cripps, Joseph, Cirencester
Curtis, sir Wm., bart., London
Curwen, John Chris., Carlisle
Curzon, hon. Robert, Clitherow
Cust, hon. John, Clitherow
Dalkeith, earl of, Marlborough
Daly, right honourable Denis B., Galway county
Daly, James, Galway town
Daniell, Ralph Allen, West Looe
Dashwood, Sir Henry Watkin, bart.; Woodstock
Davenport, Davies, Chester county
Dawson, Richard, Monaghan
*Denison, William Joseph, Kingston-upon-Hull
Dent, John, Lancaster borough
*De Ponthieu, John, Helleston
Dickinson, William; Lostwithiel, Somerset
Dillon, hon. Henry Aug., Mayo
*Disbrowe, Edward, Windsor
*Doyle sir John, bart.; Newport, Hants.
Drake, T. D. Tyrwhitt, Agmondesham
Drake, Th. Tyrw., Agmondesham
Dugdale, Dug. Stratford, Warwick county
Duigenan, P., Armagh borough
Dundas, Charles, Berks.
Dundas, honourable Charles Lau., Richmond
Dundas, hon. Lau., York city
Dundas, hon. R., Edinburgh-shire
Dundas, right hon. William, Sutherland-shire
Ebrington, lord visct., Barnstaple
*Eden, hon. W. F. Elliott, Woodstock
*Edmonstone, Charles, Dumbarton-shire
Eliot, hon. William, Liskeard
*Elliott, honourable Gilbert, M. K., Ashburton
Elliott, right honourable William, Peterborough
Ellison, Richard, Lincoln city
Erskine, right honourable Henry, Lochmaben, &c.
Estcourt, T. Grimston, Devizes
Euston, earl of, Cambridge University
Everett, Thomas, Ludgershall Eyre, Anthony Hardolph, Nottingham county
Falkiner, F. J., Dublin county
Fane, Francis, Dorchester
Fane, Henry, Lyme Regis
Fane, John, Oxford county
*Fawcett, Henry, Grampound
*Fawkes, Walter, York county
Fellowes, hon. Newton, Andover
Fellowes, Robert, Norwich
Fellowes, William Henry, Huntingdon borough
Ferguson, James, Aberdeenshire
*Ferguson, Robert, Fife-shire
*Ferguson, Ronald Crauford, Burntisland, &c.
Fetherstone, sir T. bart.; Longford
Finch, honourable Edward, Cambridge town
Fitzgerald, right hon. Jas., Ennis
Fitzgerald, right hon. M., Kerry
Fitzgerald, lord Rt. S., Kildare, Tralee
Fitzharris, lord viscount, Horsham, [dble ret.]
Fitzhugh, William, Tiverton
Fitzpatrick, right honourable Richard, Tavistock
Fitzroy, lord Charles, Bury St. Edmunds
*Fitzroy, lord William, Thet ford
Fleeming, hon. C., Stirling-shire
Foley, hon. Andrew, Droitwich
Foley, Thomas, Droitwich
Foljambe, F. Fer. Higham Ferrers
Folkes, sir Martin Browne, bart.; King's Lynn
Folkestone, lord viscount, New Sarum
*Forbes, lard visct., Longford
Forester, Cecil, Wenlock
Foster, right hon. John, Louth
Francis, sir Philip, Appleby
Frankland, Wm., Gueenborough
Fraser, Alex. M., Ross shire
Frederick, sir John, bart.; Surrey
*Fremantle, T. F., Sandwich
Fremantle, W. H., Harwich
French, Arthur, Roscommon
Fuller, John, Sussex
Fydell, Thomas, Boston
*Fynes, Henry, Aldborough, Yorkshire
Gamon, sir R., bart.; Winchester
Garland, George, Poole
Garlies, lord visct., Haslemere
Garrow, William, Callington
Gascoyne, Isaac, Liverpool
*Gaskell, Benjamin, Malden
*Giddy, Davies, Bodmyn
Giles, Daniel, East Grinsted
*Goddard, Thomas, Cricklade
Godfrey, Thomas, Hythe
Gooch, Thos. Sherlock, Suffolk
*Gore, William, Leitrim
Gower, Edw. Leveson, Truro
Gower, lord Gran. Leveson, Stafford county
Graham, sir James, bart.; Ripon
Graham, James, Cockermouth
Graham, Thomas, Perthshire
Grant, Charles, Inverness-shire
Grant, Francis Wm., Forres, &c.
Grant, right honourable sir William, Bamff-shire
Grattan, rt. hon. H., Dublin city
*Greenhill, Robert, Thirsk
Grenfell, Pascoe, Great Marlow
Grenville, right hon. Thomas, Buckingham borough
Grimston, hon. J. W., St. Alban's
Grosvenor, Richard Earle Drax, Chester city
Grosvenor, Thomas, Chester city
*Hall, Benjamin, Totness
Hamilton, load A., Lanelkshire
Hamilton, sir H. D. bart.; Airshire
Hamilton, Hans, Dublin county
Hammet, John, Taunton
*Harbord, honourable Edward, Yarmouth, Norfolk
Harvey, Eliab, Essex
Hawkins, sir Christopher, Grampound, Penryn, and Mitchell
*Hawkins, Hen., Boroughbridge
*Headley, lord, Ripon
Heathcote, sir Gilbert, bart.; Lincoln county
Henderson, Anthony, Brackley
*Henderson, sir John, bart., Culross, &c.
Henniker, Lord, Rutland
Herbert, hon. Charles, Wilton
*Herbert, Henry Arthur, Kerry
*Herbert, hon. Wm., Hants
*Heron, Peter, Newton, Lanc.
*Hibbert, George, Seaford
Hill, sir George Fitzgerald, bart.; Londonderry city, Coleraine
Hill, hon. Wm., Shrewsbury
Hinchingbrook, lord viscount, Huntingdon county
Hippisley, sir J. C. bart.; Sudbury
Hobhouse, Benjamin, Hindon
Hodson, John, Wigan
Holdsworth, A. H., Dartmouth
Honyman, Robert, shires of Orkney and Zetland
*Honywood, William, Kent
*Hood, sir Samuel, Westminster
Hope, hon. A., Linlithgowshire
Hope, hon. C., Haddingtonshire
Hope, W. J., Dumfries-shire
*Horner, Francis, St. Ives
Horrocks, Samuel, Preston
Howard, Henry, Gloucester city
*Howard, hon. Wm., Morpeth
Howick, lord viscount, Northumberland
*Howorth, Humphrey, Evesham
*Hughan, Thomas, East Retford
Hughes, Wm. L., Wallingford
Hume, Wm. Hoare, Wicklow
Huntingfield lord, Dunwich
*Huntley, Marquis of, Eye
Hurst, Robert, Steyning
Huskisson, Liskeard
Hussey, Wm., New Sarum
Hutchinson, hon. C. H., Cork city
*Irving, John, Bramber
*Jackson, John, Dover
*Jacob, William, Westbury
Jeffery, John Poole
Jekyll, Joseph, Calne
*Jenkinson, Charles, Dover
Jephson, Denham, Mallow
Jervoise, J. C., Yarmouth, Hants
*Jocelyn, lord viscount, Louth
Jodrell, Henry, Bramber
Johnes, Thos., Cardigan county
Johnstone, George, Heydon
Jolliffe, Hylton, Petersfield
*Jones, Gilbert, Aldborough, Yorkshire
*Jones, L. P., Horsham [dbleret.]
Keck, G. A. L., Leicester county
Keene, W., Montgomery borough
*Kemp, Thomas, Lewes
*Kenrick, William, Blechingly
Ken
King, sir John Dashwood bart.; Chipping Wye
Kingston, John, Lymington
*Knatchbull, sir Edward, bart.; Kent
*Knight, Robert, Wotton Basset
Knox, honourable George, Dublin University. Dungannon
*Knox, hon. Thomas, Tyrone
Ladbroke, Robert, Malmesbury
Lamb, hon. Wm., Lauder, &c.
Lambton, R. J., Durham city
Langston, John, Bridgwater
Lascelles, hon. E., Northallerton
Latouche, D., Catherlogh county
Latouche, Robert, Kildare
Laurence, F., Peterborough
Leach, John, Seaford
Lefevre, Charles Shaw, Reading
*Leigh, Charles, New Ross
Leigh, Jas. Hen., Great Bedwin
Leigh, Robert Holt, Wigan
Leland, John, Stamford
Lemon, John, Truro
Lemon, sir Wm. bart.; Cornwall
Lennox, Charles, Sussex
Leslie, Ch. Powell, Monaghan
*Lethbridge, sir John, bart. ; Minehead
Lethbridge, T. Buckler, Somerset
Leycester, Hugh, Milborne Port
*Liddell, sir Thomas H., bart.; Durham county
*Lismore, lord, Lostwithiel
Littleton, sir Edward, bart.; Stafford county
*Lloyd, sir Edward Pryce, bart.; Flint borough
*Lloyd, James Martin, Steyning
*Lockhart, W. E., Selkirk-shire
Loftus, Wm., Tamworth
Long, right hon. C., Haslemere
*Long, Richard, Wilts
Longfield, Mountifort, Cork city
*Longman, George, Maidstone
Lovaine, lord, Beeralston
Loveden, Edw. L., Shaftesbury
Lowther, James, Westmorland
Lowther, John, Cumberland, Cockermouth
Lubbock, sir John, bart.; Leominster
Lushington, sir Stephen, bart.; Plympton Earle
*Lushington, Stephen, Yarmouth, Norfolk
Lygon, hon. Wm. B., Worcester county
*Lyttleton, hon. Wm. Henry, Worcester county
Macdonald, James, Newcastle-under-Lyme
Macdowall, Wm., Renfrewshire
*Mackenzie, hon. J. S. W., Bute-shire
*Mackenzie, John Randoll, Wick, &c.
M'Mahon, John, Aldeburgh, Suffolk
Macnaghten, Edm. A., Antrim
Madocks, Wm. Alex., Boston
Magens, Mag. D., Ludgershall
*Mahon, lord visct., Wendover
*Mahon, hon. S., Roscommon
Maitland, John, Chippenham
'Maitland, lord visct., Camelford
Mann, sir Horace, bart.; Sandwich
Manners, lord Charles Som., Cambridge county
Manners, lord Robert, Leicester county
Manners, Robert, Cambridge town
*Manners, Russell, Grantham
*Manners, sir William, bart.; Ivelchester
Manning, William, Evesham
Markham, John, Portsmouth
Markham, Osborne, Calne
Marsham, lord visct., Hythe
Martin, Henry, Kinsale
Martin, James, Tewkesbury
Martin, Rich., Galway county
*Mathew, honourable Montagu, Tipperary
Maule, hon. Wm., Forfarshire
Maxwell, W., Wigtown-shire
May, Edward, Belfast
Meade, hon. John, Down
Mellish, William, Middlesex
Metcalfe, sir Thomas Theophilus, bart.; Abingdon
*Metge, John, Dundalk
Middleton, sir W. bart.; Hastings
Milbanke, sir Ralph, bart.; Durham county
Mildmay, sir H. P. St. John, bart.; Winchester
Milford, lord, Pembroke county
*Miller, sir Thomas, bart.; Portsmouth
Mills, Chas., Warwick borough
Mills, William, Coventry
Milner, Sir William, Mordaunt, bart.; York city
*Milnes, Robert Pemberton, Pontefract
*Milton, lord viscount, Malton
*Mingay, James, Thetford
Monckton, honourable Edward, Stafford borough
*Monson, honourable William, Lincoln city
*Montagu, Mat., St. Germans
Montgomery, sir James, bart.; Peebles-shire
*Moore, lord Henry, Orford
Moore, Peter, Coventry
Mordaunt, Charles, Warwick county
Morgan, Charles, Monmouth county
Morpeth, lord viscount, Cumberland
Morris, Edw. Newport, Cornwall
Morris, Robert, Gloucester city
Mostyn, sir Thomas, bart.; Flint county
*Mozley, sir Oswell, bart.; Portarlington
Muncaster, lord, Westmorland
Mundy, E. M., Derby county
*Murray, sir Patrick, bart.; Edinburgh city
*Neale, sir Harry, bart.; Lymington
*Needham, hon. Fran., Newry
Nepean, right honourable sir Evan, bart.; Bridport
Newark, lord viscount, Nottingham county
Newborough, lord, Beaumaris
Newport, right hon. sir J., bart.; St. Mawes, Waterford city
Nicholl, sir John, Hastings
Noel, Gerard Noel, Rutland
Northey, W.; Newport, Cornwall
*Nugent, sir Geo., Aylesbury
O'Brien, sir Edw., bart.; Clare
*O'Callaghan, James, Tregony
Odell, Wm., Limerick county
*Ogle, Henry Meade, Drogheda
O'Hara, Charles, Sligo county
O'Neill, hon. John, Antrim
*Onslow, hon. T. Cranley, Guildford
Ord, William, Morpeth
Osborn, John, Bedford county
Ossulston, lord, Knaresborough
*Paget, lord, Milborne Port
Paget, right hon. sir Arthur, Anglesey
Paget, hon. Charles, Carnarvon borough
Palk, sir Laurence, bart.; Devon
Palk, Walter, Ashburton
Palmer, John, Bath
*Palmerston, lord viscount, Horsham [dble ret.]
Parnell, Henry, Queen's County
Parsons, right hon. sir Laurence, bart.; King's County
Patteson, John, Norwich
Paxton, sir William, Carmar-then county
Peele, sir Robert, bart.; Tam-worth
Peirse, Henry, Northallerton
Pelham, hon. Charles Andrew, Great Grimsby
*Pelham, hon, George Andrew, Great Grimsby
Perceval, honourable Spencer, Northampton borough
Percy, earl, Launceston
*Percy, hon. J., Beeralston
*Perring, John, New Romney
Petty, lord Henry, Cambridge University
*Philipps, R. M., Staffordborough
Phipps, hon. Edm., Scarborough
Piggott, sir Arthur, Arundel
Pitt, Wm. Morton, Dorset
Plumer, Wm. Hertford county
*Plummer, Thomas William, Yarmouth, Hants
Pole, sir Charles Morice, bart.; Plymouth
Pole, hon. W. W., Queen's County
*Ponsonby, hon. Frederick, Kilkenny county
Ponsonby, honourable George, Cork county
*Popham, sir H., Shaftesbury
Porcher, J. D., Blechingly
Porchester, lord, Cricklade
Porter, George, Stockbridge
Portman, Edw. Berk., Dorset
*Ponlett, hon. V., Bridgwater
Powell, John Kynaston, Salop
*Power, R., Waterford county
Poyntz, W. S., St. Albans
Praed, William, Banbury
price, sir Charles, bart.; London
Price, Richard, New Radnor
Primrose, lord visct, Cashell
*Prittie, hon. F. A., Tipperary
Proby, lord viscount, Huntingdon county
Pulteney, sir J., bart.; Weymouth and Melcombe Regis
Pym, Francis, Bedford county
Pytches, John, Sudbury
*Quin, hon. W., Limerick county
Raine, Jonathan, Wareham
*Ramsay, honourable John, Aberbrothock, &c.
*Ramsbottom, Ric., Windsor
*Rancliffe, lord, Minehead
Ridley, sir Matthew White, bart.; Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Robarts, Abr., Worcester city
*Robinson, hon. Frederick, Catherlogh borough
Robinson, John, Bishops Castle
Robson, R. B., Oakhampton
Rochfort, Gustavus, Westmeath
Romilly, sir Sam., Queenborough
*Roscoe, William, Liverpool
Rose, right hon. G., Christchurch
Rose, Geo. Hen., Southampton
Ross, sir C., bart.; Lanerk, &c.
*Royston, lord visct.; Reigate
Russell, Matthew, Saltash
Russell, lord William, Surrey
Rutherfurd, J., Roxburgh-shire
*Ruthven, E. S., Downpatrick
Ryder, hon. Richard, Tiverton
Salusbury, sir Robert, bart.; Brecon borough
Savage, Francis, Down
*Saxon, Nathanael, Ivelchester
Scott, right hon. sir William, Oxford University
Scudamore, R. P., Hereford city
Seymour, lord Robert, Orford
Shakespeare, Arthur, Richmond
*Sharp, Richard, Castle Rising
*Shaw, James, London
Shaw, Robert, Dublin city
Sheldon, Ralph, Wilton
Shelley, Henry, Lewes
Shelley, Tim., New Shoreham
Sheridan, right hon. Richard Brinsley, Westminster
*Simeon, John, Reading
*Simmons, James, Canterbury
Simpson, hon. John, Wenlock
*Simson, George, Maidstone
*Skene, George, Kintore, &c.
Smith, George, Wendover
Smith, John, Nottingham town. Midhurst
Smith, Joshua, Devizes
Smith, Sam., Leicester borough
Smith, Thos. A., Andover
Smyth, right hon. J., Pontefract
Smyth, William, Westmeath
Sneyd, N., Cavan. Enniskillen
Somerset, lord A. J. H., Monmouth county
Somerset, lord Charles Henry, Monmouth borough
Somerset, lord R. E. H., Gloucester county
Somerville, sir M., bart; Meath
Spencer, lord Francis Almarick, Oxford county
Spencer, lord Robert, Tavistock
Stanhope, Walter S., Carlisle
Staniforth, John, Kingston-upon-Hull
Stanley, Lord, Preston
Stanley, Thos. Lancaster county
Steele, Robert, Weobly
Steele, right hon. T., Chichester
*Stephens, Samuel, St. Ives
Steward, Gabriel Tucker, Weym and Melcombe Regis
Steward, Richard Tucker, Weym and Melcombe Regis
Stewart, hon. Charles William, Londonderry county
*Stewart, hon. Edward Richard, Wigtown, &c.
Stewart, sir J., bart.; Donegal
Stewart, James, Tyrone
Stewart, hon. Mo. Gr. J., Stewartry of Kircudbright
Stopford, lord viscount, Great Bedwin
*Stopford, hon. Robert, Ipswich
Strachey, sir Henry, bart.; East Grinsted
Strahan, Andrew, Wareham
Strutt, Joseph Holden, Malden
Stuart, lord William, Cardiff
*Sumner, G. H., Guildford
*Sutton, C. M., Scarborough
*Swann, Henry, Penryn
Symonds, T. P., Hereford city
Taylor, Charles William, Wells
*Taylor, Michael Angelo, Rye
*Taylor, William, Barnstaple
Temple, earl, Bucks.
Templetown, lord, visct.; Bury St. Edmunds
*Thistlethwayte, Thos., Hants.
Thomas, George, Chichester
Thornton, Henry, Southwark
Thornton, Robert, Colchester
Thoroton, Thomas, Grantham
Thynne, lord George, Weobly
Thynne, lord John, Bath
Tierney, right hon. G., Athlone
Tighe, William, Wicklow
Titchfield, marquis of, Bucks.
Topping, James, Thirsk
*Tower, Alexander, Berwick-upon-Tweed
Townshend, lord John, Knaresborough
Townshend, hon. W. Aug., Whitchurch
*Tremayne, Jno. H., Cornwall
*Trench, F. W., Mitchell
Tudway, Clement, Wells
*Tuffnell, Wm., Colchester
*Turton, sir Thomas, bart.; Southwark
Tyrwhitt, Thomas, Plymouth
*Vane, sir Frederick Fletcher bart.; Winchelsea
Vansittart, George, Berks.
Vansittart, right hon. Nich., Helleston. Old Sarum
Vaughan, hon. John, Cardigan borough
Vaughan, sir R. W., Merioneth
*Vernon, G. G. V., Litchfield
Vereker, Chas., Limerick city
*Vyse, Richard, Beverley
Walpole, lord, King's Lynn
Walpole, hon. G., Dungarvan
Ward, hon. J. W., Petersfield
Wedderburn, sir David, bart.; Cupar, &c.
*Wentworth, Godfrey, Tregony
Wharton, John, Beverley
*Wharton, Rich., Durham city
Whitbread, S., Bedford borough
*Whitmore, Thos., Bridgnorth
Wickham, right hon. William, Callington. Midhurst
Wigram, sir Robert, bart.; Wexford town
*Wigram, Robert, Fowey
Wilberforce, Wm.,York county
*Wilder, Francis John, Horsham [double ret.] Arundel
Wilkins, Walter, Radnor county
Williams, Owen, Great Marlow
Williams, sir Robert, bart.; Carnarvon county
Williams, Rob., Wotton Basset
Willoughby, Henry, Newark
*Wilson, Richard, Ipswich
Windham, right hon. William, Norfolk. New Romney
*Wingfield, William, Bodmyn
*Wood, James Athol, Gatton
Wood, Mark, Gatton
*Wood, Thomas, B
Woolmore, John, Westbury
Wortley, J. A. S., Bossiney
Wright, J. A., Oxford city
Wyndham, Hen. Penrud., Wilts
Wyndham, Thos., Glamorgan
Wynn, sir W. Williams, bart.; Denbigh county
Wynn, Charles W. Williams, Montgomery county
Yarmouth, earl of, Lisburne
Yorke, right honourable Charles, Cambridge county
Yorke, sir J. S., St. Germans
Young, sir William, bart.; Buckingham borough
COBBETT's
During the First Session of the Third Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom of Great Britain the Twentieth, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Twenty-eighth Day of August, and from thence continued, by several Prorogations, to the Fifteenth Day of December, in the Forty-seventh Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Third, Annoque Domini 1806.
1
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, December 15, 1806.
THIS being the day appointed for the meeting of the New Parliament, the lord chancellor came to the house about two o'clock, and acquainted the house, that his majesty, not thinking fit to be personally present this day, had been pleased to cause a commission to be issued under the great seal, in order to the opening and holding of the parliament.—Then four of the lords commissioners, viz, the archbishop of Canterbury, the lord chancellor, the earl of Aylesford, and lord Walsingham, being seated on a form placed between the throne and the woolsack; the lord chancellor commanded the gentleman usher of the black rod to let the commons know, that the lords commissioners desired their immediate attendance in that house to hear the commission read. In a few minutes the commons appeared at the bar in great number, preceded by the black rod, and by the senior, and other clerks of the house. The lord chancellor then said,—"My lords, and gentlemen of the house of commons; His majesty not thinking fit to be present here this day, in his royal person, has been pleased, in order to the opening and holding of this parliament, to cause letters patent to be passed under his great seal, constituting us and several other lords, therein named, his commissioners, to do all things in his majesty's name, on his part necessary to be performed in this parliament: this will now fully appear by the letters patent themselves which will now be read."—Then the letters patent were read by the clerk; after which, the
2
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, December 15.
[CHOICE OF A SPEAKER.]
The new parliament met this day, pursuant to his majesty's proclamation. At 12 o'clock the earl of Aylesbury (lord steward of his majesty's household) came down, and, assisted by Mr. Ley, the principal clerk, and the other clerks of the house of commons, proceeded to administer, in one of the antichambers, the usual oaths to such members of the commons as were attending to be sworn. After taking the oaths. the several members repaired to their seats in the house of commons, to wait the summons of the lords commissioners, to attend
3
Mr. Bragge Bathurst
rose and address Mr. Ley, the senior clerk, as follows:— I rise, sir, to call upon the house to exercise one of their most ancient, most undoubted, and, in many respects, most important privileges, and without which our functions would be interrupted, and our deliberations embarrassed. The nature of those functions and those deliberations suggests the necessity of selecting some person from among ourselves, properly qualified to be the voice of the representatives of the people, both in their intercourse with the other house of parliament, and in the exercise of their collective authority over individuals; a person whose peculiar duty it will be to watch over their invaluable privileges, to alarm the jealousy of the house against the encroachments of the other orders of the state, and who, by his authority, wisdom, and experience, will contribute to maintain consistency, order, and regularity in their own proceedings. The great increase of parliamentary business, both of a public and private nature, occupying, as it does, so large a portion of the year; the constant and numerous attendance of the members of the house on all important questions,
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Mr. Wilberforce
said, that in seconding the proposition of his right hon. friend, he felt the embarrassment of the situation in which he placed himself, by venturing to prescribe to the house, in the most remote degree, any course that it was to adopt on so solemn and important an occasion. At the same time he confessed, that he was considerably relieved from this embarrassment, by the manner in which he perceived the proposition, just submitted to them, had been received by the house. It often happened to a member of parliament, that he felt himself obliged painfully to discharge certain duties, from a sense of public principle, though contrary to his private feelings, because there must always be a sacrifice of private considerations to public duties. But he had then the satisfaction to say, that he was about to discharge a duty which, whilst it accorded with every private feeling, was, at the same time, equally consistent with the most scrupulous regard to public duty. His right hon. friend had well pointed out some of the leading qualifications for the office of speaker, as well as the great importance of that high and confidential situation. But he that would calculate all the important duties of the speaker of the house of commons, would undertake a great and difficult task indeed. It was an office commensurate with all the functions of parliament, and consequently identified with the existence of parliament and the freedom and happiness of the people. The qualifications of a speaker were great and numerous, and, perhaps, it was difficult to form an accurate estimate of
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Mr. Abbot.
In rising to address the house this day, it is impossible for me not to feel the deepest sense of gratitude for the general favour and kindness with which this proposition has been received. Many, very many of the commendations which my honourable friends, by their partiality, have been pleased to bestow upon me, I dare not flatter myself with having merited; and although they are pleased to suppose that my former experience in the chair of this house may afford an argument in favour of their choice, yet that same experience has left on my mind a very different impression; for I am persuaded that whoever aspires to understand and execute the duties of that high
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Mr. T. Grenville
rose and said, that on an occasion so solemn and important as that of selecting a speaker, it had been not unusual to allow some of its members to express those sentiments which he rejoiced to see were so unanimous. He freely stated, that, on the present occasion, he did not feel it necessary to offer any apology for obtruding himself on the attention of the house. If the business they had so happily concluded had been one which required high talents in the person who offered his congratulations, he should have known himself better than to have offered a single observation; but, in presenting himself the first to congratulate the house, he was only expressing those sentiments which were common to all who heard him. To have a strong sense, and to express it, of the benefit the country had derived from the right hon. gent.'s being placed in the chair; to augur happily of the future by the grateful recollection of the past; to anticipate the services the country would receive; to indulge in the memory of those already conferred; to reflect that by his being placed in the situation in which fortunately he was placed, the house would assure to itself the exercise of a steady and temperate authority, an impartiality and integrity not to be shaken, a rich fund of constitutional know-
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, December 16.
This day at twelve o'clock four of his majesty's commissioners, namely, the lord chancellor, the earl of Aylesford, earl Spencer, and lord Walsingham, took their seats in the usual form. Mr. Quarme, the deputy usher of the black rod, was sent to the house of commons to require their attendance. A great number of the members of the house of commons, preceded by Mr. Abbot, in full dress, shortly afterwards appeared at the bar.
Mr. Abbot
addressed the lords commissioners as follows:—My lords, I have to acquaint you, that in compliance with the commands of his majesty, and in the exercise of their undoubted privilege, the commons of the united kingdom, in parliament assembled, have proceeded to the choice of a fit and proper person to fill the high and important situation of speaker to their house. As the object of that choice, I now submit myself for the approbation of his majesty, with due and sincere humility, deeply impressed with a sense of the many and undeserved favours I have already received from his hands, and fully confident of my inadequacy to fulfil the duties of this high situation in a manner correspondent with the dignity and importance of so sacred a trust. But of this I am convinced, that should his majesty conceive the present choice of his faithful commons not consistent with his own and the public interests, they will immediately proceed to the election of some more suitable and proper person to fill that important and dignified situation.
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The Lord Chancellor
in the name of the commission said, Gentlemen of the house of commons; We have it in command from his majesty to signify his most gracious approval of the choice you have made in the important appointment of speaker to your house. For my own part when I reflect on the great and comprehensive talents, on the perfect acquaintance with the forms and precedents of parliament, of the gentleman whom you have honoured with your choice; when I reflect on that high character for learning and wisdom for which he is so pre-eminently conspicuous; it is unnecessary for me to say any thing further than merely to express that his majesty fully approves of the object of your choice.
The Speaker
then said,—My lords; His majesty having been most graciously pleased to confirm the choice of his faithful commons, my first duty, after returning my most grateful acknowledgements for the kind manner in which the performance of my duties have been accepted and approved; and after expressing the strong conviction I feel of the indulgence his majesty has ever manifested to unintentional error, is to lay claim, in their name, and on their behalf, to all their ancient rights and privileges; particularly that their persons, estates, and servants, may be free from arrest, and all molestation; that they may enjoy liberty of speech in their debates; that they may have access to his majesty's royal person, whenever occasion may require; and that all their proceedings may receive from his majesty the most favourable construction. For my own part, I do entreat, that whenever any thing in the shape of failing or error may occur, it may be attributed to myself only, and not to his majesty's faithful commons.
The Lord Chancellor
in his majesty's name replied, that the accustomed privileges of the house of commons would be continued to them, and that the most favourable construction would be put upon all their acts.—The commons then withdrew, after which the house adjourned during pleasure. At three the house again met, and sat till four, during which time several peers took the usual oaths and their seats.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, December 16.
The Speaker came to the house at 12 o'clock. Soon after this, Mr. Quarme, deputy usher of the black rod, appeared at the
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The Speaker
accordingly went up, followed by a number of the members. On their return he addressed the house thus:—I have to acquaint the house, that I have been in the house of peers, where his majesty, by his commissioners, has been graciously pleased to approve and confirm the choice of this house, in the election they have made of me to be their speaker, and that I have there laid claim, by humble petition to his majesty, to all our ancient and undoubted rights and privileges; and more especially, freedom from all arrests or molestations, for ourselves, and our servants; freedom of speech in debate, free access to his majesty's royal person, as occasion may require, and that all our proceedings may receive the most favourable construction. All which his majesty has been pleased to allow in as full and ample a manner as has ever been done to any of my predecessors. And now I have again to return you my warmest and most grateful thanks for the high honour which you have been pleased to confer upon me, assuring you, that it is my purpose to act in all matters with the strictest impartiality; and I have, at the same time, to entreat the house to afford me their constant support in maintaining the established rules and orders, all which have been found so necessary for the dignity of our proceedings, and the dispatch of business. I have now only further to remind the house, that the first thing to be done upon the present occasion, is, for the several members to take and subscribe the oaths of supremacy, abjuration, and qualification as the law requires.—The speaker himself first took the usual oaths. The members then came to the table by parties, and were sworn in the usual manner. This business continued till 4 o'clock, when the house adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, December17th
On these days the lord chancellor took his seat on the woolsack at three, and the clerk continued to swear in the peers till four.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, 17th December
At 1 o'clock the speaker came down to the house. Several members present took
15
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, December 19.
[THE LORDS COMMISSIONERS' SPEECH.] This day at 4 o'clock, his grace the archbishop of Canterbury, the lord chancellor, the earl of Winchelsea, and earl Spencer, being robed, took their seats on the bench in front of the throne, and Mr. Quarme, deputy usher of the black rod, was then dispatched to order the attendance of the commons, who forthwith, with the speaker at their head, appeared at the bar. The royal commission, authorising certain peers therein named, or any three or more of them, to open the parliament, was then read. After which, the Lord Chancellor delivered the following speech to both houses.
"
My Lords and Gentlemen
"His majesty has commanded us to assure you, that in the difficult and arduous circumstances under which you are now assembled, it is a great satisfaction to him to recur to the firmness and wisdom of his parliament, after so recent an opportunity of collecting the sense of his people. His majesty has ordered the papers which have been exchanged in the course of the late negociation with France, to be laid before you. His majesty has employed every effort for the restoration of general tranquillity, on terms consistent with the interest and honour of his people, and with that inviolable good faith towards his allies, by which the conduct of this country has always been distinguished.— The ambition and injustice of the enemy disappointed these endeavours, and in the same moment kindled a fresh war in Europe, the progress of which has been attended with the most calamitous events.—After witnessing the subversion of the .ancient constitution of Germany, and the subjugation of a large proportion of its most considerable states; Prussia found herself still more nearly threatened by that danger, which she had vainly hoped to avert by so many sacrifices. She was therefore
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"
Gentlemen of the House of Commons
" His majesty looks with confidence to your assistance in those exertions which the honour and independence of your country demand. The necessity of adding to the public burthens will be painful to your feelings, and is deeply distressing to his majesty. In considering the estimates for the various branches of the public service, you will best consult his majesty's wishes, by combining all practicable economy with those efforts which it is necessary to make against the formidable and increasing power of the enemy.
"
My Lords and Gentlemen
"The long series of misfortune which has afflicted the continent of Europe, could not fail to affect, in some degree, many important interests of this country. But, under every successive difficulty, his majesty has had the satisfaction of witnessing an increasing energy and firmness on the part of his people, whose uniform and determined resistance has been no less advantageous than honourable to themselves, and has exhibited the most striking example to the surrounding nations. The unconquerable valour and discipline of his
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The commons then withdrew, and the house adjourned for a short time to unrobe Having again assembled, his majesty's speech was read by the lord chancellor, and afterwards by the clerk at the table.
The Earl of Jersey
rose to move an address to his majesty. In thus rising to address their lordships for the first time, he felt himself in a situation of considerable difficulty, and hoped for their lordships' indulgence. In adverting to the topics contained in his majesty's speech, the first to be noticed was, the negociation between this country and France. As the papers respecting this subject would shortly he laid on their lordships' table, it would not now be regular to enter into any detailed discussion respecting the progress and result of that negociation; it must, however, be evident to the it lordships, from what had already transpired, that the negociation had broken off in consequence of the imperious conduct and exorbitant demands of France. His majesty, anxious that peace should be restored, if that could be attained consistently, with the honour and interests of the country, had ordered the commencement of a negociation, the main business of which was transacted by a man (Mr. Fox) than whom no one was more fit, whose great and comprehensive mind was admirably calculated to embrace all the interests of the country, whose candour and manliness of character were exhibited in the most striking manner, in the frankness, the clearness, and precision, with which he communicated with the French government, whilst, at the same time, he did not give up one jot of the interests or the honour of his country, but asserted them with all the firmness and energy which so important an occasion required. The
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Lord Somers
presented himself to the lordships. He rose, he said, to second the address which had been proposed by the noble earl. Concurring as he did
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Lord Hawkesbury
said, he should not think he had discharged his duty, if he allowed the address to pass without offering some observations on the speech which occasioned it. He would first embrace the opportunity of expressing his satisfaction at the able manner in which the address was moved by the noble earl, of whose friendship he was happy to boast He agreed with his noble friend in ever general sentiment which fell from him. They, as well as the manner in which they were delivered, called for the approbation of both sides of the house. No party-spirit should ever induce him to withhold his concurrence and applause from sentiments befitting the great crisis in which we were placed, and particularly when they were expressed by a nobleman for whom he had the greatest persona regard. There were, however, circumstances connected with the speech from the throne, to which he could not avoid calling the attention of their lordships. The first point upon which he should observe was one not openly mentioned in the speech, but indirectly alluded to; he meant the dissolution of parliament. It was not his intention to question the king's power to dissolve parliament; that part of the prerogative he allowed in its fullest extent and plenitude. He admitted that it was a prerogative which was inherent in him, in its strongest sense. If it were possible that parliament could acquire legal permanence, for ever so short a time, independent of the crown, there would be no security for the monarchy. But this, like every part of the prerogative, should be exercised with a wholesome and sound discretion. If it should be found to have been exercised with levity, or without a due necessity, it was a measure for which ministers would incur a very weighty responsibility. What was there in the state of the country to have justified the late unexpected and premature dissolution of parliament—of a parliament which had only sat 4 sessions, and which had nearly three years to run? From the passing of the septennial act in the year 1715, almost 90 years ago, except in the precedent of 1784, upon which he should say a few words before he sat down, there was no instance of a parliament being dissolved under six sessions. There was no instance, he would repeat his assertion, except a demise of the crown, and the one
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Lord Grenville rose,
and spoke to t following effect:—In asking your lordship to support the address which has just been moved, I must begin by assuring your lordships, that if I claim for it that general approbation which I am confident it will obtain in this house, and throughout the whole country, it is precisely because it is free from that sort of ambiguity which the noble lord who just sat down has more than insinuated it possesses. The address has been conceived in terms which must appear to every one unobjectionable, and no conduct would, in my opinion, be more unworthy
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Lord Hawkesbury,
in explanation, begged leave to observe, that not a word had fallen from him in the least disrespectful to lord Morpeth: on the contrary, he had the highest opinion of that noble lord's merits; and was fully convinced that in the execution of his mission he had, used every endeavour that, was compatible with the nature of his instructions.
The Earl of Radnor rose
just as the question was about to be put, to suggest that a clause or an amendment should be incorporated in the address, for the purpose of expressing how much their lordships condoled with his majesty, in consequence of the loss his majesty's family had recently sustained on the continent, by the lamented death of that illustrious man, their near relation, the duke of Brunswick. This was a mark of respect, which he thought due to the royal family.
Lord Grenville
said, that the subject to which the noble earl had alluded had already been under his consideration, and he had consulted the Journals in order to be satisfied how he ought to act, and he was convinced that such a proceeding as that suggested would be contrary to the usage of parliament. From his examination it appeared, that there was no instance of an address of condolence being presented to the sovereign on the death of a relative not born in this country, except one to queen Anne, on the decease of her husband, prince George of Denmark; but that was a particular case. It was of importance that the usual ceremonial of parliament should not be departed from; for if an address was in the present instance resorted to, the exclusion of others from a similar compliment would appear a sort of disrespect.
The Earl of Radnor
said he was perfectly satisfied, since he knew that his majesty's ministers had considered the subject. He was only afraid it might have escaped their attention.
nemdiss
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pro.formâ
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, November 19.
At 4 o'clock, Mr. Quarme, yeoman usher of the black rod, appeared at the bar, and in the name of the lords authorized by virtue of his majesty's commission, required the immediate attendance of the commons in the house of peers, to hear the commission read. The speaker, and nearly all the members present, attended. On their return, the speaker having declared that the clerk of the house had, according to custom, prepared a bill to prevent clandestine outlawry, the bill was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time. The grand committees for religion, for grievances, for courts of justice, and for trade, and the committee of privileges, were appointed, and the due powers given to them. The customary resolutions relative to the term of limitation for petitions, complaining of undue returns to the internal regulations of the house, &c. were passed.
[THE LORDS COMMISSIONERS' SPEECH.]
The
Speaker
The Hon.
William Lamb
(son of lord viscount Melbourne)
rose. He said, that unfortunately the gloom cast over the meeting of parliament by the continuation of the disturbance of that system, under which Europe had enjoyed the highest tranquillity and happiness, was by
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Mr. John Smith,
in rising to second the address, observed that, in the present crisis, and at a period so big with new and extraordinary events, the satisfaction which his majesty was pleased to express at meeting his parliament, must be equally felt by every member of that house; for there never was a moment when the collective wisdom of parliament was more imperiously called for, than in the present unexampled state of public affairs: and he was persuaded that the deliberations of that house would be so conducted as to merit the confidence which his majesty had been graciously pleased to repose in them. The house must see with concern that his majesty's recent endeavours to restore peace to his subjects, had been disappointed by the failure of the late negociation; and they must recognize in this proceeding of his majesty, the same benevolent disposition which had so often led his majesty in circumstances equally discouraging, to leave no means untried to put an end to the calamities of war.—His majesty having
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Mr. Canning
declared that he never rose with more lively sensations of anxiety than on the present occasion, both because he felt the unparalleled importance of the crisis, and the duty which bound him, in common with every member of the house, and every subject of the realm, to state his real opinion of the situation of our affairs, and of the best means which remained for their extrication from the peril in which they were involved. But in doing this, the greatest difficulty was to avoid that which, above all other things, he was most solicitous to avoid; namely, to appear to damp the spirits of the country at a period when it was so necessary that firmness and confidence should prevail. He begged, therefore, that the house would be candid enough to believe him, when he declared, that he entertained a perfect and sincere confidence—a confidence founded not on rashness, but on the most mature reflection—a confidence founded on the experience of the past, on the review of the present, and on the anticipation of the future—that there existed in this country resources amply sufficient to meet and
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remain
remain
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uti possidetis;
uti possidetis,
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propria quœ maribus.
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Lord Howick rose
He was certainly not surprized that the very extraordinary motion of the right hon. gent. should be thought of such a nature as not to require that it should be read from the chair; but he certainly was surprized that the right hon. gent. should have thought proper to submit to the house not only in this motion, but in many parts of the speech with which he prefaced it, assertions of facts unfounded in truth, and that he should have built on those facts, unwarranted conclusions, without investigation or enquiry, without having recourse to the authority of any document whatsoever. On such grounds, the hon. gent. had brought forward an amendment, charging his majesty's ministers with the most grave and momentous derelictions and deficiencies in the management of the army, of the navy, and of the foreign relations. The hon. gent. accused them of having excited universal discontent and disturbance in the army by an improper distribution of patronage; he accused them of prostituting the sacred name of his majesty, by dissolving parliament at a time when it was actually summoned to meet
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sous un caractère queloonque
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uti possidetis,
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Lord Castlereagh
assured the house, that it was not his intention to trespass on the time of the house, by entering at length into the consideration of the present subject, particularly as all the papers and documents relating to it had not as yet been laid on the table. He agreed with the noble lord, who had displayed great eloquence and very considerable talents in the vindication of himself and the rest of his majesty's ministers, that the proper time for considering the important question of negociation with France was, when the whole of the correspondence should be laid before the house. Coinciding with him thus generally on the subject of the negociation as to the fitness of the time for dis-
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nem. con.
Lord Howick
then rose and said, that he hoped to be able on Monday next, to lay the papers relative to the negociation before the house, as every exertion was making to have them prepared as early as possible.
Mr. Secretary Windham
gave notice, that on Monday next he should move the thanks of the house to sir John Stuart, and the officers and men who had fought under him at the glorious battle of Maida.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturaday, 20th December 1806
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Johnson from the office of the chief secretary of Ireland, presented the 3d and 4th reports of the commissioners appointed to enquire into the Fees, &c. of the public offices of Ireland.—On the motion of Mr. Hobhouse, the usual committee to enquire into Expiring Laws was appointed.—On the suggestion of lord Howick, it was resolved, that no petitions for private bills should be received after Friday, the 27th day of Feb. next.—It was also understood, on the intimation of lord Howick, and with the acquiescence of the Speaker, that public business should commence every day at half-post four o'clock.—The Speaker having enquired whether or not there were any Election Petitions to be presented, and having stated the order by which, according to the rules of the house, the several classes of those petitions ought to be arranged, the following were presented and read, and ordered to be taken into consideration on the days attached to them, viz.—From Horsham Jan. 8, Penryn Jan. 8, Saltash Jan. 13, Westminster Jan. 13, Tregony Jan. 20, Maldon Jan. 20, Aberdeen Jan. 22. The Westminster petition, presented, by lord Folkestone, was from
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[THE. LORDS COMMISSIONERS' SPEECH.]Mr. Lamb
brought up the report of the address to his majesty, in answer to his majesty's most gracious speech. On the motion for its being read,
Lord Howick,
unwilling that any thing which he might have said should mislead the house or the country, rose to explain two circumstances in the debate of the preceding evening. It was certainly not extraordinary, in the new and important situation in which he found himself placed, that his embarrassment should be productive of some error, however unintentional. He certainly had last night conceived and stated, that Mr. Fox's last letter, respecting any negociation with France in which Russia should not be included, was dated as far back as the 26th of March; but having since referred to the official documents, he found that the date of the letter to which he had alluded was the 20th April; and therefore so far the argument of the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Canning) carried with it more weight than in the other case it would be entitled to. Having said thus much in correction of his statement, he should proceed to the explanation of another point in dispute. Very heavy censure had been passed by the noble lord (Castlereagh) and the right hon. gent. against his late right hon. friend (Mr. Fox) for not having repelled the accusation of preceding administrations contained in M. Talleyrand's reply to his first letter. To prevent any misapprehension that might go forth, before the papers should be laid on the table of the house, he would distinctly declare, that his right hon. friend had repelled that accusation, though the French government, in the publication which they caused to be made of the correspondence, had thought proper to suppress that part of it.
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Mr. Canning
felt himself under the utmost obligation to the noble lord for the extreme candour, which prompted him to come forward and make the statements which he had done. With regard to the date of Mr. Fox's letter, it certainly had surprized him very much yesterday evening, when the noble lord declared the date which he had just corrected; but he did not see that the alteration of date made such a difference in the state of the argument, as the noble lord seemed willing to allow, He had contended, that not on one particular day alone, but that on every day the situation of this country, with respect to Russia, ought to have been present to the minds of his majesty's ministers, and to have influenced their conduct. With respect to the suppression by the French government of the defence, which it now appeared by the noble lord's statement, had been made by Mr. Fox, of the conduct of antecedent administrations against the foul charges preferred against them, it gave him great satisfaction to find that such a defence had been made. The house would recollect, however, that he had last night only reasoned hypothetically on this subject, declaring, that if the chasms in the correspondence which he had described should not be properly supplied, such and such must be the consequences necessarily to be deduced from that omission. In pointing out these chasms, he conceived that he had done a service to his majesty's ministers.
Lord Howick
added to his former statement, that Mr. Fox in his letter declared, that what he did was with the direct approbation of all his colleagues.
Mr. Perceval
said, he did not rise to oppose the address, but merely to notice one or two points which had been omitted in his majesty's speech to the house. There were a few topics also to which he wished to advert on the present occasion, just to let the noble lord who introduced them, see that his triumph was not as complete as he had induced himself to imagine. The noble lord had, in the course of his speech last night, drawn a comparison between the 15 years opposition, of which the noble lord had been a distinguished member, and the present opposition, which he characterized as factious and harassing, while he complimented his own, as one which had been uniformly actuated by principle. Allowing the noble lord all the enjoyment which he could derive from his retrospect, he
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Lord Henry Petty
believed, that in the present state of the house, and in the present state of the information before the house, he should best consult the wishes of the house by adjourning the consideration of many of the points on which the learned gent. had touched in a speech, which, although certainly it was not a very long one, yet comprised an infinite variety
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Mr. Canning
called to order, not conceiving it right to mention, in terms of indirect censure, the name of a petitioning candidate.
The Speaker
said he did not know of any order prohibiting the mention of any name but that of a member of that house.
Lord H. Petty
was glad to find he had not transgressed the rules of order in mentioning the name of Mr. Paull, by doing which he did not mean the slightest disrespect to that gentleman. He begged to assure the gentlemen on the other side of the house, that he did not intend to hurt their feelings by stating in the most indirect manner, that there was any similarity, between their principles or their popularity; he knew they were quite opposite. He begged pardon for having occupied the time of the house with this explanation, but seeing that the right hon. gentlemen were sore upon this. point, he thought it right to give them the full benefit of his testimony, and, to exculpate them from any such political connection.
Mr. Perceval
explanation, denied that he had imputed any want of information to the two noble lords who were engaged in the commercial discussions with America. What he had said was, that the manner in which the bills on that subject were introduced into parliament last session, evinced the bad principle on which the negociation with the United States was founded. As to the matter on which the noble lord had dilated at the close of his speech,, he assured him that he had no idea of priding himself on the popularity of Mr. Paull, but the contrary. In alluding to the popularity of Mr. Paull at Westminster, he only meant to, shew, that, comparing popularity with popularity, Mr, Paull had completely beaten the treasurer of the navy, until the government coursers were harnessed to the car, by which means the right hon. gent. got a-head of his rival. [Cry of Order! Order!]
Sir J. Pulteney
entered into an eulogium on the victory of Maida. So few were the opportunities offered to our brave troops, of meeting the enemy on fair ground, that he sincerely regretted that notice of this. victory did not make a feature of his majesty's speech, although whenever similar opportunities did offer, he was satisfied
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Mr. G. Johnstone,
in addition to what had fallen from the hon. baronet, observed, that at the battle of Maida, general Stuart actually possessed the chief command in Sicily; for sir J. Craig had left that island, and the commander-in-chief appointed to succeed him had not arrived. The statement therefore made by the noble lord was by no means strictly correct. But had it been correct, it would by no means have justified the omission complained of. When lord Nelson achieved the splendid victory of the Nile, was he not under the command of lord St. Vincent? yet that achievement had been noticed in the speech from the throne. The omission of any allusion to the situation of Ireland had been attempted to be justified by declaring that no good was likely to result from such an allusion. This was very true; but ought not every thing important and connected with the interests of the empire to find a place in his majesty's speech without any qualification? He was happy to hear that government looked to the state of the finances of the country with such confidence, and he cordially concurred with the noble lord in the just praise he had bestowed on lord Sidmouth for his attention to this subject.
Lord H. Petty
in explanation, allowed, that he found he had not been altogether Correct in his statements, with regard to the precise state of rank which sir J. Stuart held at the time of the battle of Maida. Admitting this, he still maintained, that there was no distinct rule of proceeding; but that his majesty's ministers were bound to regulate their conduct by the various circumstances which different cases must necessarily present.
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PAPERS
RELATIVE TO THE NEGOCIATION WITH FRANCE; PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY'S COMMAND, TO BOTH HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT,
22nd December 1806
No. I.—Letter from Mr. Secretary Fox to, M. Talleyrand; dated Downing-street, Feb. 20, 1806.
Sir; I think it my duty as an honest man, to communicate to you, as soon as possible, a very extraordinary circumstance which is come to my knowledge. The shortest way will be to relate to you the fact simply as it happened.—A few days, ago, a person informed me, that he was just arrived at Gravesend without a passport, requesting me at the same time to send him one, as he had very lately left Paris, and had something to communicate to me which would give me satisfaction. I sent for him—he came to my house the following day—I received him alone in my. closet; when, after some unimportant conversation, this villain had the audacity to tell me that it was necessary for the tranquillity of all crowned heads, to put to death the ruler of France; and that for this purpose, a house had been hired at Passy, from which this detestable project could be carried into effect with certainty, and without risk. I did not perfectly understand if it was to be done by a common musket, or by fire arms upon a new principle.—I am not ashamed to confess to you, sir, who know me, that my confusion was extreme in thus finding myself led into a conversation with an avowed assassin: I instantly ordered him to leave me, giving, at the same time, orders to the police officer who accompanied him, to send him out of the kingdom as soon as possible. After having more attentively reflected upon what I had done, I saw my error in having suffered him to depart without having previously informed you of the circumstance, and I ordered him to be detained.—It is probable that all this is unfounded, and that the wretch had nothing more in view than to make himself of consequence, by promising what, according to his ideas, would afford me satisfaction.— At all events, I thought it right to acquaint you with what had happened, before I sent him away. Our laws do not permit us to, detain him long, but he shall not be sent away till after you shall have had full time
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No. 2.—Letter from M. Talleyrand to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, March 5, 1806. Received March 19th.
Sir; I have laid your excellency's letter before his majesty. His first words, after having read it were, "I recognize here the principles of honour and of virtue, by which Mr. Fox has ever been actuated. Thank him, on my part." I will not allow myself, sir, to add any thing to the expressions of his imperial and royal majesty. I only request you to accept the assurances of my distinguished consideration. (Signed) CH MAU. TALLEYRAND.
No.3.—Extract from a Letter from M. Talleyrand to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated, Paris, March 5, 1806. Received March the 19th.
It may be agreeable to you to receive news from this country. I send you the emperor's speech to the legislative body. You will therein see that our wishes are still for peace. I do not ask what is the prevailing inclination with you; but if the advantages of peace are duly appreciated, you know upon what basis it may be discussed.
No. 4.—Extract from a Speech delivered by the chief of the French government to the legislative body on the 2d of March, 1806.
I desire peace with England. On my part, I shall never delay it for a moment. I shall always be ready to conclude it, taking for its basis the stipulations of the treaty of Amiens.
No. 5—Letter from Mr. Secretary Fox to Talleyrand; dated Downing-street, March 26, 1806.
Sir; The information which your excellency has given me of the pacific disposition that prevails in your councils, and of the basis upon which peace may be discussed, has induced me to lay that part of your private letter before the king.—His majesty has repeatedly declared to his parliament his sincere desire to embrace the first opportunity of re-establishing peace upon a Solid basis, such as may be compatible with
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Sir; The very instant I received your letter of the 26th of March, I waited upon his majesty; and I am happy to inform you, that he has authorized me, to send you, without delay, the following answer: The emperor covets nothing that England possesses. Peace with France is possible, and may be perpetual, provided there is no interference in her internal affairs, and that no attempt is made to restrain her in the regulation of her custom duties; to cramp her commercial rights; or to offer any insult to her flag.—It is not you, sir, who have displayed in many public discussions an exact knowledge of the general affairs of Europe and of France, who require to be convinced that France has nothing to desire except repose, and a situation such as may enable her, without obstruction, to give herself up entirely to the labours of her industry.—The emperor does not imagine that any particular article of the treaty of Amiens produced the war. He is convinced, that tire true cause was, the refusal to make a treaty of commerce, which would necessarily have been prejudicial to the manufactures and the industry of his subjects. Your predecessors accused us of wishing universal conquest. In France, England has likewise her accusers. Very well! We only ask equality. We shall never require an account of what you do at home, provided that, on your side, you never require an account of what we do at home. This principle is reciprocally just, reasonable, and mutually advantageous.—You express a desire that the negociation may not terminate in a short-lived peace. France is more interested than any other power that it should be permanent. It is not her interest to make a truce; since a truce would only pave the way for fresh losses. You know very well that nations, similar in this respect to individuals, accustom themselves to a state of war, as well as to a state of peace. All the losses that France could sustain, she has sustained. This will ever be the case, in the first 6 months of war. At present, our commerce and our industry [se sont rèpliès sur eux-rnêmes] have taken the channel dictated by the circumstances of our country, and are adapted to our state of war. Consequently a truce of 2 or 3 years would be the thing of all others the most opposite to our commercial interests and to
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No. 7.—Letter from Mr. Secretary Fox to M. Talleyrand; dated Downing-street, April 8th, 1806.
Sir; I did not receive until yesterday evening your dispatch of the 1st inst. Before I reply to it, allow me to assure your excellency that the frankness and obliging tone which prevail in it have produced the greatest satisfaction here. A spirit of conciliation manifested on both sides is already a great advance towards peace.—If what your excellency says respecting domestic affairs relates to political affairs, an answer is scarcely requisite. We do not interfere in such concerns in time of war, much less shall we do so in time of peace; and nothing can be further from the ideas which prevail here than any wish either to interfere with respect to the internal regulations Which you may judge proper for the management of your custom duties and for the support of your commercial rights, or to offer insult to your flag. As to a Treaty of Commerce, England supposes
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No. 8.—Letter from M. Talleyrand to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, April 16, 1806.—Received April 19th.
Sir; I have taken the pleasure of his majesty the emperor and king, before whom I lost no time in laying the dispatch which your excellency did me the honour of writing to me, under date of the 8th instant.—It appeared to his majesty, that, admitting as you do the principle of equality, you nevertheless still persist in requiring form of negociation which cannot accord with that principle. When in a discussion between two equal powers one of them calls for the interference of
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No. 9.—Letter from Mr. Secretary Fox to M. Talleyrand; dated Downing-Street, April 20th, 1806.
Sir; I received the day before yesterday your excellency's dispatch of the 16th inst.—After having repeatedly read it with all possible attention, I do not find in it an argument sufficient to induce our government to change the opinion which it has already declared, namely, that any negociation in which Russia is not included as
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No. 10.—Letter from M. Talleyrand to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, 2d June 1806.—Received June 4th.
Sir; I have laid before the emperor the last letter, which your excellency did me the honour to write to me. I can only, by his orders, repeat to you, that to require of France that she should treat with you upon the principle of your alliance with Russia, is wishing to reduce us to a constrained form of discussion, and supposing us in a state of humiliation, into which we have never fallen. The enemies of France must not hope to dictate to her either the conditions of peace, or a mode of negociation contrary to the established usages. Such an attempt with respect to either of these points, would equally affect the French character; and I do not hesitate to say, that to overcome all our repugnance on
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"That the two states should have for their object that the peace be honourable for them and their respective allies, and at the same time of a nature to secure, as far as is in their power, the future tranquillity of Europe."
No. 11.—Letter from Mr. Secretary Fox to M. Talleyrand; dated Downing-street, June 14, 1806.
Sir; I received a few days ago your excellency's dispatch of the 2d inst. I cannot understand how, in treating conjointly with England and Russia, you will acknowledge the
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No.12.—Communication made by the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated June 13th, 1806.
A few days after my arrival at Paris from the depot at Verdun, M. Talleyrand desired me to call upon him; having done so, he told me that the French government had been looking out for some means by which a secret and confidential communication might be made, explanatory of the, sentiments and views of France, as well as the outlines of the terms on which peace might be restored between the two countries.—Having mentioned the extreme desire of making this communication in such a manner that no publicity might in any case ensue, should the object of it not he obtained, M. Talleyrand proceeded to state, in a long argument, which it is useless to repeat, as it forms the substance of several of the French government's dispatches; the reasons which prevent their treating for a general peace jointly with Russia.—He said, that in a dispatch sent some weeks before to Mr. Fox, he had been ordered to name Lisle rather than Amiens for the negociation of a definitive treaty, in order to remove all former discussions, and to facilitate to England the possession of Malta.—I then took the liberty of interrupting M. Talleyrand, to say that however flattering the confidence he was ordered to place in me might be, yet that, feeling as I did, the interests, and above all the honour of my country, it was impossible for me to be the bearer of a communication having peace for object, against which I should feel obliged to vote in parliament; and viewing the restoration of Hanover in this light, I could not receive any further communication till I had explicit declaration with regard to his majesty's German dominions.—M. Talleyrand then broke off the Conversation, desiring me to return the third day after. At the expiration of this time I waited upon him again, when he informed me that, considering the extreme stress which appeared to be laid upon this point, Hanover should make no difficulty.—Authorised by the concession of that in which the honour of the king and that of the nation appeared most interested, I enquired whether the possession of Sicily would be demanded, it having been so
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Vous l'avez, nous ne vous la de. mandons pas; si nous la possèdions, elle pourroit augmenter de beaucoup les difficultès.
uti possidetis
No. 13.—Note from Mr. Secretary Fox to M. Talleyrand; dated London, June 14, 1806.
Sir; I just write you a few words to express to you the pleasure which I feel at the desire you have manifested for place.
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No. 14.— Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, June 19, 1806. Received June 21st.
Sir; I have the honour to inform you that, in obedience to your orders I made all the haste in my power to arrive at Paris as soon as possible; calm at sea however prevented my getting here till the afternoon of the 16th.—I immediately waited upon M. Talleyrand to deliver to him the dispatches you entrusted to my care, and requested to put off any conversation on the subject of my journey till next day. I intended employing this interval to endeavour to see M. D'Oubril if at Paris, and communicate with him previously to seeing again M. Talleyrand, or at any rate to obtain some knowledge of his motions.—Previous, however, to my leaving M. Talleyrand, he expressed to me that although the desire of peace was equally sincere now as it was when I quitted Paris, yet that some changes had taken place which be had hinted at the possibility of, when I last saw him, alluding to the readiness of Russia to treat separately; and further mentioned that the emperor had received reports from his brother and the general officers under his orders, stating that Naples could not be held without Sicily, and the probability they saw of gaining possession of that island. I answered him, that, being ordered to require the restoration of Naples to the king of Sicily as a necessary article of peace, there would be no question of their separation.—I conceive Sicily to be the great difficulty, though perhaps, were there no other, it might be got over. M. Talleyrand often and seriously stated the absolute determination of the emperor not to consent to our demands of Naples, Venice, Istria, and Dalmatia, or to alienate any part of his Italian states to form a provision for the king of Sardinia.—Against cessions in the West Indies or elsewhere I solemnly protested; nor do I think they care sufficiently about these objects to give any sufficient continental equivalent for them.—M. Talleyrand often repeated that the emperor had enquired whether I had any powers? adding, "qu'enpolitique on ne peut parler même langue si on n'y ègalement autorisè;" [that in politics it is impossible to hold the same language, un-
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No. 15.—Extract from a dispatch from Mr. Secretary Fox to the Earl of Yarmouth; dated Downing Street, June 26, 1806.
My lord; I had the honour, on Saturday evening, to receive your lordship's letters of the 19th; and should sooner have answered them, if I had not been for these 3 days past totally incapable of attending to business.—I am very happy to learn that M. Talleyrand acknowledges your accounts of former conversations to be accurately correct; but when he does acknowledge this, I have no conception on what ground he can recede from what he said so distinctly to your lordship before, upon the subject of Sicily: "
Vous l'avez, nous ne "vous demandons rien,
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No. 16.—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, July 1, 1806.—Received July 4.
Sir; I had the honour to receive on Saturday night, the full powers with which it has graciously pleased his majesty to entrust me, and your dispatch of the 26th of June.—I waited upon M. Talleyrand next morning, and stated to him in the strongest manner the impossibility of my conversing any further upon the general outlines of peace, until he should return to the former ground, and consider Sicily in its true and real situation, namely, a state not conquered by France, or likely to be so, and coming most strictly within the meaning of his own words; that it had been clearly expressed by him, and repeated to you in the first instance, that France did not intend to make Sicily an obstacle to peace. M. Talleyrand answered, that whilst the war continued, and till terms were actually agreed upon, change of circumstances were always to be considered as reasons for a partial change of terms; that Bonaparte had been but lately convinced of the facility of taking Sicily at some future period of the war; but that, above all, he felt more and more its absolute necessity to make Naples and the neighbouring territories tenable: that had any confidential overture been made 3 months ago, they would have been ready to settle the question of Naples in the manner most satisfactory to G. Britain; the same a month later with regard to Holland. Those subjects were now arranged, and the emperor would consider any retrograde measure as equivalent to abdication. I observed to that minister, that however much good faith may be necessary in every transaction of the world, yet that being more peculiarly so, when, a communication is made secretly and verbally, I had a right to be
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No. 17,—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, July 1, 1806;
midnight
Sir; After closing the dispatch I had the honour to address to you this morning, I went for the passport M. Talleyrand had promised to have prepared for the messenger's return.—Instead of giving me the passport, he made many excuses for its having escaped his memory, requesting me to wait till he should come back from St. Cloud.—When I returned, M. Talleyrand proposed to me to offer the Hans Towns as an establishment for the king of Naples, and that the British troops should occupy them the same day they retake possession of Hanover. On a little further conversation, I had little doubt that were England to provide in any other manner for his Sicilian majesty, the king might add the Hans Towns and their territories, in full sovereignty to his German dominions.—The proposition about the Hans Towns being entirely new, I promised to refer it Without any comment to you for his majesty's consideration.—I have the honour to be, &c. YARMOUTH.
No.18.—Extract from a dispatch from Mr. Secretary Fox to the Earl of Yarmonth; dated Downing-street, July 5, 1806.
My lord; Your lordship's dispatches of the 1st inst. were received here, early yesterday morning, and I lose no time in apprising you of his majesty's commands upon the present state of the discussion with the French government.—The abandonment of Sicily is a point on which it is impossible for his majesty to concede. Your ldp. has already stated unanswerably to M. Talleyrand, that this demand is inconsistent with his express declarations, and with the whole principle on which the negociation rests. It is, besides, a proposal in itself quite inadmissible. The king's troops occupy Sicily for its defence, but with no right to cede it to France. It is not easy to contend; that the possession of Sicily can be necessary to that of Naples; nor, if it Were so; could that be assigned. as a reason for his majesty's consenting to abandon that island, Which he may justly, hope his naval and military force will be. able to defend against all attacks. The Hans Towns could not, in the present circumstances, answer the purpose of an equivalent for Sicily, even if there were not other obvious objections to such a pro-
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No.19.—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox;dated Paris, July 9, 1806.—Received July 12.
Sir; I had the honour to receive your dispatch of the 5th inst. early yesterday morning, and as soon as possible after waited upon M. Talleyrand to communicate to him that the offer made by France was by no means admissible, and that I had no authority to listen to any proposals whatsoever for the restoration of peace till he should desist from all pretension to the island of Sicily.—M. Talleyrand not being willing to make any such declaration, I asked him to give me a passport to return to London; be desired me to wait one day till he should again have taken the emperor's orders ,—I accordingly returned this morning, when he desired me to propose Dalmatia, Albania, and Ragusa, as an indemnity for the loss of Sicily to his Sicilian majesty; to this I answered that as the
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No. 20.—Extract from a dispatch froth Mr. Secretary Fox to the Earl of Yarmouth; dated Downing-street, July 18, 1806.
My lord; Your lordship's last dispatches have been received, and considered with all the attention which their importance naturally demanded.—It is unnecessary for me to recall to your lordship's recollection that the demand. of Sicily, in whatever shape it may he brought forward by France, is in express contradiction to the offers originally made to your lordship by M. Talleyrand. But it is material that this topic should never be lost sight of in the course of these discussions; and that your lordship should observe to M. Talleyrand, that whatever difficulty now obstructs the conclusion of the negociation, arises ,solely, from this unexpected departure from the basis originally established.—An exchange is now offered for Sicily, and it is in that
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No. 21.—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, July 19; 12 o'clock at night.—Received July 22.
Sir; On the 10th, gen. Clarke was named plenipotentiary to treat with M. d'Oubril: they have since had daily conferences of many hours, yesterday of fourteen. I hear every where that peace will be signed to-morrow, between Russia and France. On the 17th M. d'Oubril admitted to me, that he had produced his powers, and that if conditions, such as he should judge necessary to ensure the repose of the continent could be obtained, he should sign a truce of ten months; and this night, on pressing him, and remonstrating both upon his conduct and the impropriety of disguising His intention, I drew from him these words, which I wrote down in his presence: "Que voyant le danger immè diat de I' Autriche, s'il pouvoit la sauver, il croiroit de son devoir de le faire, même par une paix particulière." ["That being aware of the immediate danger of' Austria, if it was in his power to save it, he should think it his duty to do so, even by a separate peace."] All he now appears to claim is the return of the troops from Germany; and if he is willing to make peace on receiving an assurance that
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No. 22.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, July 20, 1806; 11 at night.—Received July 24.
Sir; At 9 this morning, having had the honour to receive your letters by Mr. Longuinoff, and written a few lines to you in addition to my dispatches of last night, I went to M. d'Oubril; and as I am happy since to find, anticipated the contents of your dispatch of the 18th inst.—I used every argument and means to obtain delay; engaged to break off, if he did; and, finally, authorized him to hold out hopes, that I would listen to propositions of indemnity in lieu of Sicily for his Sicilian maj. if proposed by him, and accompanied by a joint negociation.—I begged he
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instantèr
Sir; I saw M. Talleyrand today. I can perceive that the terms of France, are increased, but still not as much so as the sudden defection of Russia had led me to apprehend. Hanover, Malta, the Cape, and India, remain pure and unsullied; and I took an opportunity in conversation to protest, that, come what come might, these were points I never would suffer to be mentioned, but as points agreed upon.—M. Talleyrand demanded my powers. I did not think myself authorised, in the present circumstances, to withhold them.—Gen. Clarke is named to treat with me.
No. 24.—Full powers given to the Earl of Yarmouth, which were communicated to M. Talleyrand on the 21st of July 1806, and exchanged with Gen. Clarke, the French Plenipotentiary, on the 23d. George R. —George III, by the grace of God, of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland king, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunenburg,
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No. 25.—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, July 24, 1806.—Received July 28.
Sir; I had the honour to send by M. de Longuinoff, dispatches acquainting you, for his majesty's information, of the peace signed between the Russian and French plenipotentiaries, and with as accurate a statement of the terms as I was able to obtain. M. d'Oubril himself set out for Petersburgh early on the morning of the 22d.—On the 22d I received the official notification of the appointment of gen. Clarke to treat on the part of France, (a copy of which I have the honour to in close, marked A.) preceded by a private communication from M. Talleyrand, saying, that the Russian peace being signed, and the season of the year favourable to the accomplishment of the ulterior views of France, no arrangement, which might remove for some weeks, or even months, a definitive treaty, could now, take place.—I answered the official note (marked A.) with one, a copy of which I inclose, (marked B.) —In the evening gen. Clarke proposed a conference for evening following morning, at Which we should mutually exchange our full powers. We accordingly did so; and I have the honour to inclose (marked-C.) a copy, of those of gen. Clarke.—This Conference began by an historical recapitulation of what had previously passed, gen. Clarke saying, he had not yet received his final instructions on all the different points in discussion; it was therefore agreed to adjourn the conference to this day, when each should come prepared With a memorandum of the intentions of his government, founded on what had already passed; gen. Clarke at the same time declaring that a separate peace with Russia was to be considered equal or superior, in the present circumstances of the World, to any great success in war, and consequently as entitling France to terms Much more advantageous than those to Which she would have subscribed some days ago: This was accompanied by some animadversions upon the conduct of Russia, to which I could only answer, that I felt it my duty abstain from any remark, and should, therefore, be entirely silent
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First inclosure (A.)—Copy of a note from M. Talleyrand to the Earl of Yarmouth; dated Paris, July 22, 1806.
My lord; I have the honour to inform your excellency, that, having laid before his maj. the emperor, the copy of the full powers from his Britannic maj. which you have done me the honour to communicate to me officially, I have received his majesty's orders to inform you, that he has Made choice of his excellency gen. Clarke, his principal private secretary, to negotiate and conclude the treaty which is to put an end to the present war, and restore at length to Europe, and to the commerce of
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Second Inclosure (B.) —Copy of note from the Earl of Yarmouth to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, July 22, 1806.
Sir; I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your excellency's letter, acquainting me with the choice made by the emperor of his excellency gen. Clarke, his principal private secretary, for the purpose of negociating and concluding the treaty which is to put an end to the present war.—I request that your excellency will be persuaded of the earnestness with which I shall enter into arrangements on this subject with gen. Clarke, as soon as his excellency shall inform me of his wishes in this respect. I request, &c. YARMOUTH.
Third inclosure (C.)—Copy of General Clarke's full powers.
Napoleon, by the grace of God, and by the constitution, emperor of the French, king of Italy, reposing entire confidence in the fidelity to our person, and zeal for our service, of the general of division Clarke, our privy counsellor of the cabinet, and great officer of the legion of honour, we have given to him, and do give to him by these presents, full and absolute power, commission, and special orders to agree upon, decide, conclude, and sign, in our name, and with the minister of his Britannic maj. duly authorized thereunto, such treaties, articles, conventions, declarations, and other acts, as he shall judge to be expedient; promising to agree to, to maintain, to accomplish, and punctually to execute, all that he the said plenipotentiary shall have promised and signed, by virtue of the present full powers; as also to have the letters of ratification prepared in due form, and to deliver them, in order that they may be exchanged within the time agreed upon.—In witness whereof, we have given these presents, signed with our hand, countersigned and sealed with our seal.—At St. Cloud, the 21st July, 1806, in the 2d year of our reign. NAPOLEON.
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The situation in which the two belligerent powers are now placed by the course of the events of the war, leaving few points of immediate contact between them, or on which they may not, according to all appearance, come now to an understanding, his Britannic majesty, animated no less than the emperor of the French, with a desire to put an end to the calamities of war, has authorized the undersigned (furnished with the full powers of his majesty) to discuss the basis, and to give full effect to this reciprocal desire.—The immense acquisitions made by France since the commencement of hostilities, and the direct and immediate influence which she has obtained, having entirely changed the political system of Europe, his Britannic maj. finds himself obliged to seek in the conquests he has made, and in the possession of Malta, a just and reasonable counterpoise. His maj, would consequently treat generally on the basis of the
uti possidetis
Fifth inclosure (E.)—Copy of an article proposed by Gen. Clarke to the Earl of Yarmouth for the maintenance of the integrity of the Ottoman Empire.
The two contracting powers reciprocally guarantee the entire and absolute integrity and independence of the Ottoman empire. They will mutually oppose the pretensions of any power to any thing contrary to the usages, the rights of sovereignty, and the possessions of the Sublime Porte.
No. 26.—Extract from a dispatch from Mr. Secretary Fox to the Earl of Yarmouth; dated Downing-street, July 26, 1806.
My lord; Your lordship's dispatches conveying the mortifying intelligence of the signature of a separate treaty between Russia and France, were received here yesterday; and his majesty's ministers have since had the opportunity of being acquainted. with the precise terms of that
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No. 27.—Extract from a dispatch from Mr. Secretary Fox to the Earl of Yarmouth; dated, Downing-street, July 28, 1806
My lord; Your lordship's dispatch of the 24th inst. was received here this morning, and as it is probable that, in the course of this day, or tomorrow at farthest,your ldp. will receive mine of the 26th, inst., I do not think it necessary to do more at present, than to request that your lordship will assure M. Talleyrand, that, immediately on the receipt of the passports which you, have been instructed to demand, the earl of Lauderdale, who has been humbly recommended to his majesty for this important trust, will be prepared to set out; and that he will, therefore, of course, be with your lordship, in a very few days from this date. I need hardly observe to your lordship, that it. is of the utmost importance, that, in the interim, your lordship should, avoid taking any step, or even holding any language, which may tend in the smallest degree to commit the opinion of his majesty's government on any part of the matters now depending.
No. 28.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, July 30th, 1806.—Received August 1st.
Sir; I had the honour to receive your dispatch of the: 26th inst, late at night on the 28th, and next morning lost no time in asking for blank passports for a person fully instructed with the sentiments of his majesty's government, whom it was their intention to join with me in, the important commission of treating for peace. M. Talleyrand told me be. must take the emperor's orders. I accordingly returned this day, when that minister informed me, that the emperor could consider this demand in no other light but that of unnecessary delay, because his majesty's secretary of state was actually in possession of a blank passport, which would enable any person or persons to come to Paris without the loss of time occasioned by this demand; but that "
pour surcroit de facilitès
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No. 29.—Copy of a dispatch from Mr. Secretary Fox to the Earl of Yarmouth; dated Downing-Street, August the 2d, 1806.
My lord; Mr. Goddard arrived here yesterday evening with your lordship's dispatch of the 30th July.—His majesty's servants always did justice to the motives which induced your lordship to produce your full powers, though the step is one of which it is not possible for them to express approbation, thinking it, as they do, likely to have given so much more countenance than was desireable to the new and increasing demands of France."—The full powers which lord Lauderdale carries with him, are drawn jointly in his name and your lordship's. In the present disposition of the French government, there is, I fear little probability, that peace can be concluded on such terms as are alone admissible. The trial should, however, be made with frankness and good faith; and it is with this view that his majesty has beers pleased to direct that the earl of Lauderdale should proceed to Paris, notwithstanding the present unfavourable aspect of the negociation. His instructions your lordship will consider as equally addressed to yourself, and as the rule of your conduct in any conferences which, in conjunction with him, you may have with M. Talleyrand or gen. Clarke; and, in any point of doubt that may occur, it is his majesty's pleasure, that your lordship should be guided by lord Lauderdale's opinion formed, as it will be, on the fullest a knowledge of the sentiments and views of a his majesty's government. I am, &c. C. J. Fox.
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My lord; I was unwilling to detain lord Lauderdale for the purpose of replying particularly to the unfounded allegations of M. Talleyrand, which you have recapitulated in your dispatch of the 30th ult. But some points are there mentioned which cannot be left without an answer, such, indeed, as I trust your lordship has already given to them.—It is true, as stated by that minister, that when the demand was made for lord Lauderdale's passport, there still remained here a blank passport, one of the two sent here some time before your lordship's arrival, when it had been proposed to us to treat separately from Russia. That proposal having fallen to the ground, the circumstance of our being still in possession of the passport was overlooked; but, even if it had occurred, some doubt would probably have arisen, how far it might be proper, in so different a state of things, to make use of it for lord Lauderdale, without some previous communication of such an intention. This whole matter is, however, very immaterial. The principal point to which I feel it necessary to advert, is that part of M. Talleyrand's language which imputes to this country needless delays in the negociation, and attributes to that cause the unjustifiable measures pursued by France in Germany, and elsewhere.— In the instructions given to lord Lauderdale, the repeated tergiversations of France, during the negociation, are detailed. It is from thence alone that delay has arisen.—Your lordship truly states, that the offers made through yourself were so clearly and unequivocally expressed, that the intention of the French government could not be doubted. But they were no sooner made than departed from. In the first conference after your lordship's return to France, Sicily was demanded. In the former offers, it had been distinctly disclaimed: "Vous l'avez—nous ne vous la demandons pas. Si nous la possèdions, elle pourroit augmenter de beaucoup les difficultès." [You are in possession of it. We do not demand it of you. If we possessed it, the difficulties might he much increased.] This demand, therefore, could not have been foreseen, being in contradiction to their own assurances; and your lordship could only take it
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No. 31.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, Aug. 6, 1806; 9 o'clock A. M.—Received Aug. 13.
Sir; The desire expressed by commodore Owen, in the uncertain state of the weather, to get off the coast of France as soon as possible, prevented me from detaining the boat for the purpose of announcing to you my arrival at Calais. After a very quick passage in his majesty's frigate the Clyde, I was put on shore on Sunday morning the 3d, about 11 o'clock. At Calais I received every mark of attention and civility front the magistrates and the commanders of the army, and of the marine, as well as from the inhabitants of the place, who were in crowds on the shore, expressing their wishes for peace. I have now to inform you, that
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First inclosure (A.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated August 5, 1806.
The earl of Lauderdale, appointed by his Britannick majesty, plenipotentiary at the court of France, has the honour to inform his excellency the minister for foreign affairs, of his arrival at Paris, and at the same time to request that he will have the goodness to inform him at what hour he may call upon him.
Second inclosure (B).—Copy of a note from M. Talleyrand to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated August 5, 1806.
The minister for foreign affairs has learnt with pleasure the arrival of the earl of Lauderdale. He will be happy to see him today at 5 o'clock. He has the honour to present to the earl of Lauderdale the assurances of his high consideration.
No. 32.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, Aug.7,1806. Received Aug. 13.
Sir; In consequence of the appointment mentioned in my dispatch of yesterday's date, I called on his excellency, the minister for foreign affairs, at 11 o'clock, and exhibited the powers with which his majesty has been graciously pleased to invest me.—According to custom, I left with his excellency a copy of the powers, and he delivered to me a letter which I have the honour to inclose, informing me that gen. Clarke had been appointed to negotiate with lord Yarmouth and myself.—To gen. Clarke I was introduced before dinner, at the house of his excellency the minister, and in the course of a short conversation with him, fixed our first meeting for 12
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Inclosure referred to in the preceding dispatch.—Copy of a, note from M. Talleyrand to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Aug. 6th, 1806.
The undersigned minister for foreign affairs has lost no time in laying before his majesty, the emperor and king, the full powers which his excellency lord Lauderdale, minister plenipotentiary on the part of his Britannick majesty, has done him the honour to communicate to him. He has the honour to inform lord Lauderdale, that gen. Clarke has been appointed, by his majesty, and has received his credentials to treat for peace, and that it is with that minister that their excellencies, my lords Lauderdale and Yarmouth, will have, to enter into negociation on the subject of the present discussions, which the two governments equally desire to see happily concluded. (Signed), CH. MAU. TALLEYRAND, prince of Benevento.
No. 33.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris; Aug. 7, 1806.—Received Aug. 13.
Sir; I received in due time, and in their order; your several dispatches of the 8th ult. and the 2d and 3d inst. As no messenger has been dispatched from hence since the receipt of them, I. have been obliged to defer, till now, replying to their contents.—It was with great satisfaction that I learnt,by your dispatch of the 2d inst. the intelligence of lord Lauderdale's departure from England; as, independently of the advantages I, must derive from communicating with,a person charged with the latest and fullest instructions from his majesty, his arrival here afforded me the opportunity of evincing, in the clearest manner, that I had in no instance thought myself at liberty to depart from the basis, originally laid down as the only one on which his majesty's ministers could consent to treat with the French government.— It must be evident that whatever delays have occurred in the negociation are imputable to France, and, to the perpetual variation of the terms proposed by her; and I had not failed before the receipt of your dispatch of the 3d inst. repeatedly to do justice to the conduct a his majesty's government in that respect.—As in the- line of conduct
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No. 34.—Full powers given to the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth, which were communicated to M. Talleyrand on the 6th of August, 1806.
George III., by the grace of God, of the united kingdom of G. Britain and Ireland king, defender of the faith, duke of Brunswick and Lunenburg, arch-treasurer and prince elector of the holy Roman empire, &c. To all and singular to whom these presents shall come, greeting!—The flames of war having already raged too, long in the different quarters of the world, it is the more incumbent upon us to re-establish the public tranquillity, by putting, an end to so many quarrels and controversies, We have therefore judged it expedient to invest certain fit persons with full powers on our part for the better carrying on this great undertaking.—Know therefore, that we, reposing especial trust in the fidelity, diligence, judgement, perspicuity, and experience of our right trusty and well-beloved James earl of Lauderdale, and of our trusty and well-beloved Francis Seymour esq. commonly called earl of Yarmouth, have nominated, constituted, and appointed them, as by these presents we do nominate, constitute, and appoint them, our true, certain, and undoubted procurators commissioners, and plenipotentiaries: giving to them conjointly or separately, all and all manner of power, faculty, and authority, together with general-as well as special orders, (so that the general do not derogate from the special, nor on the contrary,) for us and in our name to meet and confer with the ministers, commissioners, or plenipotentiaries, of any other princes or states whatsoever, who may be interested therein, whether our enemies or our allies, furnished with, sufficient powers for that purpose, as well singly and separately, as aggregately and conjointly and to consult and agree with them for the speedy restoration of a sincere friendship and amity
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No. 35.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, Aug. 9, 1806.—Received Aug. 13.
Sir; Thinking it unnecessary to send a courier to England with the details of the mere matters of form which necessarily took place after lord Lauderdale's arrival, we have delayed writing till there appeared something of importance to communicate to you.—We have now to inform you, that lord Lauderdale, having exhibited his powers, and delivered a copy in the customary form, our first meeting with gen. Clarke, the plenipotentiary of the French government, took place at his house, on Thursday 7th Aug. at noon.—Our conversation commenced by gen. Clarke's observing that as lord Lauderdale had just arrived from London, with full instructions from his majesty, he had probably something new to communicate.—Lord Lauderdale in substance replied that it was his wish before intermeddling with the negotiation now pending, distinctly to recall to the recollection of gen. Clarke what had already passed between his majesty and the government of France, and at once precisely to state the only
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First inclosure (A.)—Copy of a note delivered by the Earl of Lauderdale to GeneralClarke on the 7th of August, 1806.
The undersigned plenipotentiary of his Britannic majesty, previous to entering upon the negociation actually pending between his sovereign and the court of France, thinks it necessary briefly to retrace the circumstances in which it originated. At the same time, he conceives it consistent with that character of openness and since
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Second inclosure (B.)—Copy of a note from Gen. Clarke to the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth; dated Paris, Aug. 8, 1806.
General Clarke requests their excellencies the earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth will be pleased to postpone to 4 o'clock in the afternoon the conference which was fixed for 12 o'clock. Should the hour of 4 be inconvenient to their excellencies, gen. Clarke begs they will name one that will suit them. The general will wait upon lord Lauderdale with his excellency M. de Champagny, minister of the interior, who has been appointed by his maj. the emperor and king, to be his plenipotentiary conjointly with gen. Clarke, to negociate a peace with Great Britain. Gen. Clarke has the honour, &c.
Third inclosure (C.)—Copy of a note from M. Talleyrand to the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth; dated Paris, Aug. 8, 1806.
My lords; I have the honour to inform your excellencies, that his maj. the emperor and king has judged it expedient to join M. de Cbampagny, his minister of the interior, as additional minister plenipotentiary, to the mission which hitherto had been entrusted solely to gen. Clarke, and that these two ministers are equally authorized to confer with your excellencies on the great object of conciliating the politics and the interests of the two states. I lost no time in acquainting them with the intentions of his maj., and I doubt not they will concert measures for the immediate prosecution of the negociation which gen. Clarke has had the hononr to enter upon with your excellencies, and which his maj. hopes as well as desires to see terminate in a result equally advantageous and honourable to both nations. I request, &c. (Signed) CH. MAU. TALLEYRAND, prince of Benevento.
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The undersigned minister plenipotentiary of his majesty the emperor of the French, king of Italy, has laid before his government the note transmitted yesterday by his excellency lord Lauderdale, plenipotentiary from his Britannic majesty. His majesty the emperor of the French, king of Italy, could not see without pain, that a negociation which has already been the subject of so much discussion, which has occasioned the dispatching of so many messengers by both parties, which was, in a word, already brought to maturity, should have suddenly taken a retrograde direction, so as to present obstacles founded, not in the nature of the stipulations, but on the very ground on which that negociation was commenced.—The court of France has constantly refused to admit in the same negociation, the courts of England and Russia, and whatever desire his majesty the emperor of the French, king of Italy, may have, to see a general peace shortly re-established, no consideration could induce him to violate that principle of his policy. The negociation which France had commenced at Petersburgh, had moreover convinced his majesty the emperor of the French, king of Italy, that the English cabinet deceived itself with respect to the nature of its relations with Russia.—After several months of discussion, the cabinet of London yielded this point, and his excellency the Earl of Yarmouth arrived publicly at Calais, and afterwards at Paris, for the purpose of treating for peace. He had conferences with his excellency the minister for foreign affairs immediately after his arrival in this capital, having previously made known to him that he was duly authorized by his government.—Since that period Russia has concluded her peace with France. The undersigned has been appointed minister plenipotentiary to negociate with the plenipotentiary of his Britannic majesty, and the first step was an exchange of his powers with those of his excellency the Earl of Yarmouth, whom he was bound to believe, as is expressed in his excellency's full powers, authorized to negociate, conclude, and sign a definitive treaty between France and the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.—Very frequent conferences, most of them of several hours, have since taken
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Fifth inclosure (E.)—Copy of a note from the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth to Gen. Clarke; dated Paris, August 9, 1806.
The undersigned plenipotentiaries of his Britannick majesty cannot allow themselves to enter into a detailed consideration of the official note, dated the 8th of August, which has just been delivered to them on the part of his excellency gen. Clarke From the manner in which the different points which form the subject of this note are treated, it would be impossible for them to discuss them with that calmness and that regard to propriety, which the character with which their sovereign has invested them demands. But the subject of this note is of a nature, so general and so foreign to the object under discussion, that. it would be perfectly useless to take it into consideration at the present moment.—The undersigned the earl of Lauderdale, far from thinking that the manner of discussing in writing the fundamental points of a negociation can in any shape increase the difficulty of coming to an understanding, is, on the contrary, of opinion that he already perceives evident proofs of its utility, inasmuch as the official note presented by him since his arrival has brought the negociation to an unequivocal issue, and has put an end to those misunderstandings, without doubt real, which have taken place, and which never could have occurred if the same method had been adopted at the com-
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Sixth inclosure (F.)—Copy of a note from the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, August 9th, 1806.—Half past 6 P. M.
The pretensions brought forward by the French government in the official note of his excellency gen. Clarke, so incompatible with the basis formerly proposed by the government, not leaving us any other alter native than that of returning to England we have the honour to request your excellency to have the goodness to send the necessary passports for ourselves and our suite. We avail ourselves, &c. (Signed) LAUDERDALE. YARMOUTH.
No. 36.—Extract from a Dispatch from the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, Aug. 11th, 1806.—Received Aug. 13th.
Sir; In our last dispatch of the 9th inst we had the honour of informing you, that on that evening we had applied for passports to return to England, and also for passport for a courier we intended to have dispatched immediately. We have only now to mention that, on Sunday at 11 o'clock, we sent the inclosure (marked A.), renewing our demand; and that this morning, having received no answer to either application,the inclosure (marked B.) was sent to M. Talleyrand's house, Ruëd' Anjou. The courier Basilico, who carried the note, returned soon after to inform us that he was directed at M. Talleyrand's house to go the foreign office, where he accordingly went, but was told that no communication would he received then till between 12 and 1. We then begged of
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Addition by the Earl of Yarmouth.
As the French government has in every instance admitted the exactness of the communications made by me, I beg leave, in addition to this dispatch, to remark that the intention expressed to me by the French government, as that which made them prefer communicating through my channel rather than on paper, was the expressing to his majesty's government their readiness to restore his majesty's German dominions
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First inclosure (A.)—Copy of a note from the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth to M. Talleyrand; dated August 10, 1806.—11 o'clock A. M.
The earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth have the honour to repeat to his excellency the minister for foreign affairs, the demand which they had the honour to make to his excellency yesterday, at half past 6 o'clock in the evening, of passports necessary for them and their suite, as well as of a passport for a messenger who is now waiting for it, to proceedon his journey.
Second inclosure (B.)—Copy of a note from the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth to M. Talleyrand; dated Aug. 11, 1806, 10 o'clock A. M.
Sir; It is your duty to repeat the demand which we have already twice made, of a passport for a messenger, and of passports for our return to England.—We think it right also to remark to your excellency, that these demands were made the day be fore yesterday (Saturday) at half past 6 in the evening; that they were renewed to; your excellency yesterday (Sunday) at 11 o'clock, and that to the present moment we have not received any answer to them.—When your excellency recollects that near 24 hours have passed since we addressed
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Third inclosure (C.)—Copy of a note from Messrs. Champagny and Clarke to the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth dated Paris, Aug. 11, 1806.
The undersigned, ministers plenipotentiary of his majesty the emperor of the French, king of Italy, have read with attention the note dated the 9th of August. addressed to them by their excellencies the plenipotentiaries of his majesty the king of the united kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland, in which they again propose the
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an acknowledgement, in favour of the two parties, of the full right of intervention and of guaranty in continental and in maritime affairs.
Fourth inclosure (D.)—Copy of a note from the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, Aug. 11, 1806; half past 6 P. M.
Sir; We have this moment received a note signed by their excellencies M. de Champagny and general Clarke, to which under any other circumstances we should have immediately replied. But it is our duty previously to remark to your excellency, that we have remained since half past 6 o'clock of the evening of the day before yesterday, without any answer to our demand of a passport for a messenger, or to that of our own passports, although this demand has been repeated three times in this interval.—It is of the highest importance, in our present situation, to be certain of a communication perfectly free and uninterrupted, and as constant as we can desire, with our government. We therefore entreat your excellency to satisfy us on this point, in order that we may know whether, in all the possible cases in which we may think proper to demand passports either for ourselves or for messengers, we shall be sure to obtain them without delay.—We
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Fifth inclosure (E.)—Copy of a note from M. Talleyrand to the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth; dated Paris, Aug, 11, 1806.
The undersigned, minister for foreign affairs, has the honour to transmit to then excellencies lords Lauderdale and Yarmouth, ministers plenipotentiary of his majesty the king of England, the passport for a messenger which they demanded. He regrets that the relaxation from business granted in the offices on Sundays, should have prevented him from sending it sooner, With regard to the passports their excellencies have demanded for themselves, the undersigned flatters himself that they will give to the delay in sending them, the interpretation the most natural and the most proper to prevent all complaint on their part. The undersigned can never fear the responsibility of delays, which have for object to prolong, for some days, the hope of restoring peace between two great powers, and of putting an end to the scourge of war in the four quarters of the world.—The undersigned begs, &c. &c. CH. MAU. TALLEYRAND, prince of Benevento.
Sixth inclosure (F.)—Copy of a note from the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth to Messrs. Champagny and Clarke; dated Paris, Aug. 11, 1806; 11 o'clock P.M.
The undersigned plenipotentiaries of his Britannic majesty would not have delayed their answer to the note of this day's date, addressed to them by their excellencies the plenipotentiaries of the French government; but as their reiterated demands to his excellency the minister for foreign affairs for passports, even for their messenger, remained unanswered, they thought it right first to ascertain, whether they were still to enjoy an open and uninterrupted communication with their government, such as, in similar cases, has always been permitted by every government in Europe.—The explanations which the undersigned have received from his excellency the minister for foreign affairs, induce them to hope that a like delay will, on no occasion whatever, again take place.—After having maturely considered the note of their excellencies the plenipotentiaries of the
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No. 37.—Extract from a dispatch from Mr. Secretary Fox to the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth; dated Downing-street, Aug. 14, 1806.
My lords; The messenger, Basilico, arrived here early this morning, with the dispatches with which your lordships had charged him; and, although it appears most probable, that, before he can again reach Paris, your lordships will be no longer there, yet, as there is still a possi-
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No. 38.—Copy of a dispatch from Mr. Secretary Fox to the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth; dated Downing-street, Aug. 14, 1806.
My lords; His majesty's servants have observed, from the dispatches received this day, that some insinuation has been thrown out by the French government, of a disposition on the part of this country to gain some unfair advantage by the employment of two plenipotentiaries in the present discussions. That government has since taken the obvious mode of counteracting this advantage (if any such there was) by naming, on their part also, a second plenipotentiary But, the king's government is desirous while it adheres steadily to the substance of those points which are thought fit to be insisted on for the honour and interest of his majesty's crown, to leave no pretence for cavils as to the form in which these discussions are carried on. The advantage which was to be looked to from the personal share which the earl of Yarmouth originally had in these transactions as the bearer of the overtures made by France, has now ceased; and, while his lordship has, on the one hand, properly recorded his decisive testimony as to the, reality of these overtures, and as to the exact terms of peace so offered, the French government has, on the other hand, no only refused to adhere to those offers, but has expressly declared, that they never can even have entered into their thoughts. "Jamais il n'a puvenir dans la pensèe de sa majestè l'empereur des Francois, roid Italie, de prendre pour base de la nègociation
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No. 39.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale of Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, Aug. 16, 1806.—Received Aug. 19th.
Sir; The note to the plenipotentiaries of the French government, dated the 11th inst., of which a copy (marked F.) was sent in my dispatch of the 11th inst., was delivered early in the morning of the 12th, as you will see from the inclosed receipt (marked A.)—No answer having been received, it was thought proper on the 14th to send to his excellency the minister for foreign affairs, a letter, of which a copy is also inclosed (marked B.)—No answer to. the official note transmitted to the plenipotentiaries of the French government on the morning of the 12th, has yet been given; and gen. Clarke, upon whom lord Yarmouth and I waited this morning merely for the purpose of shewing him a mark of attention, informed us, that it was in the possession of the emperor, who had not as yet signified his pleasure on the subject.—At one o'clock we received a note from M. Talleyrand (marked C.), and nearly at the same time another (marked D.), from gen. Clarke.—Copies of both of these are herewith transmitted.—I think it evident from what gen. Clarke says, that no communication will be made for two days.—There is perhaps nothing sufficiently important to authorize my sending a courier. Indeed my principal motive for doing so is
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First inclosure (A.)—Copy of a receipt, dated Paris, Aug. 12, 1806.
I have received a sealed packet, addressed to me, and to M de Champagny minister of the interior, at half past seven, Aug. 12, 1806. CLARKE.
Second inclosure (B.)—Copy of a note from the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, Aug. 14, 1806.
Sir; We think it our duty to acquaint your excellency, that early in the morning of the 12th inst. we transmitted to their excellencies the French plenipotentiaries, a note in answer to that of their excellencies received on the 11th inst. In this answer, we endeavoured again to set forth the points which appeared to us to require, in some form or other, a previous explanation, to authorize us, in conformity to our instructions, to pursue the present negociation.—The silence of their excellencies the plenipotentiaries in this respect, gives us reason to presume that we must not, at the present moment, expect such an explanation on their part.—Impressed with this idea, we desire to put an end to the general expectation of both nations, considering the slight appearance there is of seeing it realized. We feel that the demand which we make, under such circumstances, of passports for our return, may be susceptible of interpretations of a nature to retard the happy moment when the views of the French government shall approach nearer to those which it had been supposed to entertain. It is in order to prevent the possibility of such a misinterpretation, that we think it incumbent on us to assure your excellency, that a step which would have the effect of causing any obstacle to the renewal of the negociation, would be very far from our intention, though, from the reasons which we have detailed, we find ourselves obliged to put an end to our mission.—It only remains for us to assure your excellency, that if, fortunately for both nations, it should happen that we have been mistaken in the inference which we have drawn from the silence of the French plenipotentiaries, we will wait during a reasonable time for the explanations which their excellencies have to communicate to us, In order, however, to
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Third inclosure (G.)—Copy of a note from M. Talleyrand to the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth; dated Paris, Aug. 16th, 1806.
The undersigned minister for foreign affairs, hastened to lay before his majesty, the note which their excellencies the earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth did him the honour to address to him on the 14th instant. As soon as he shall have received orders relative to the objects of this note, he will not fail to inform the plenipotentiaries of his Britannic majesty. The undersigned requests, &c.(Signed) CH. MAU. TALLEYRAND, prince of Benevento.
Fourth inclosure (D.)—Copy of a note from General Clarke to the Earls of Lauderdale and Yarmouth; dated Paris, August 16th, 1806.
On going to the prince of Benevento's, I learnt that Basilico arrived yesterday at Boulogne, I lose no time in communicating this circumstance to lord Lauderdale, I learnt also, that his majesty the emperor is gone to hunt at Rambouillet, where his majesty intends remaining to-morrow.—I request lord Lauderdale to inform lord Yarmouth of this, and to accept, &c. (Signed) CLARKE.
No. 40.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, August 17th, 1806.—Received August 22d.
Sir; I take the opportunity of lord Yarmouth's return to England, to inform you that in consequence of his majesty's pleasure signified in your dispatch of the 14th instant, I this morning wrote to his excellency the minister for foreign affairs, stating to him, that lord Yarmouth had his majesty's permission to return to England; and that his majesty had been graciously pleased, in the event of the negociation proceeding, to confine the future management of it solely to me. About 11 o'clock, M. de Champagny and gen. Clarke paid me a visit of ceremony; lord Yarmouth happened to be with me at the time; and we mentioned to them the change that had taken place, and shewed them the note
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Inclosure in No. 40.—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, 17th August, 1806.
The undersigned has the honour to inform his excellency the minister for foreign affairs, that his Britannic majesty has been pleased to grant the request of the earl of Yarmouth, and to allow him to return to England. According to the tenour of his full powers, which have been already communicated to their excellencies the French plenipotentiaries, the undersigned is authorized to treat jointly or separately with the French government; and he has just received from his court precise instructions to that effect, in case the answer to the note of the 11th instant should be of nature to permit the undersigned to pursue the negociation. The undersigned has the honour, &c, LAUDERDALE.
No. 41.—Extract from is dispatch from Mr. Secretary Fox to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Downing-street, Aug. 23 1806.
My lord; The contents of your last dispatches do not appear to require any particular answer, and this messenger is set back only that you may be enabled to keep us regularly informed (so long as you shall still continue at Paris) of the state the negociation there. If, on the arrival of any intelligence of the decision of Russia not to ratify without the consent of
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No. 42.—Copy of a dispatch from Lord Lauderdale to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, August the 25th, 1806.—Received September the 3d.
Sir; In my dispatch of the 16th inst. I had the honour of transmitting to you a copy of a letter sent by lord Yarmouth and myself, on the 14th inst. to the minister of foreign affairs. I have now to inform you that my desire to combine with firmness the utmost degree of forbearance that appeared to me consistent with the character with which his maj. has been pleased to invest me, induced me patiently to suffer the silence of the French government, without remark, from the 14th till the 22d, when I transmitted to the minister for foreign affairs a note, of which I have the honour to inclose you a copy, marked (A.)—No notice having been taken of this note by his excellency, I have this morning sent a second note, of which I have also the honour to inclose a copy, marked (B.)—I have the honour to be, &c. LAUDERDALE.
First Inclosure. (A.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, Aug. 22, 1806.
Sir; The undersigned, minister plenip. of his Britannic maj. finds himself under the necessity of recalling to the attention of his excellency the minister for foreign affairs; 1st, That in the morning of the 12th inst. a note, signed by the undersigned and the earl of Yarmouth, and dated the 11th, was transmitted to his excellency gen. Clarke, in which the undersigned observed, "The British government, far from "pretending to exact from the French go-
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Second Inclosure(B.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M.Talleyrand; dated Paris, Aug. 25th, 1806.
The silence still maintained by their excellencies. the French plenipotentiaries, as well as by his excellency the minister for foreign affairs, after the official note delivered by the undersigned and the earl of Yarmouth on the 11th inst. after the letter addressed to his excellency the minister for foreign affairs on the 14th inst.; and after the official note of the undersigned dated the 22d inst., appears clearly to announce, that the French government has abandoned every wish for peace, on the conditions which they themselves had in the first instance, proposed, and which the undersigned has uniformly declared to be the sole basis on which he was authorized to negociate with that government.—In this state of affairs, the undersigned cannot flatter himself with the possibility of any advantage resulting from the prolongation of his stay at Paris; he feels too that farther delay would necessarily give to both nations and to all Europe reason to believe that peace, the object of their desires, is on the point of being concluded, at the very moment when all reasonable hope of attaining it appears to be completely at an end.—The undersigned, strongly impressed with this idea, finds himself obliged to terminate his mission, by making to his excellency the minister for foreign affairs the formal demand of passports for his return into the presence of his sovereign.—At the same time, and in conformity with the spirit of conciliation which has constantly characterized his whole conduct Since his arrival at Paris, the undersigned, at the moment when he feels himself obliged by his instructions to demand his passports, cannot resolve to prevent the possibility of a communication on the part of the French government, of a nature to enable him to carry on the negociation, although, from the continued silence of that government, he can scarcely retain
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No. 43.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated August 29th, 1806.—Received September 3d.
Sir; In my last dispatch, dated August the 25th,I had the honour of stating to you the detail of the negociation till the afternoon of that day. At 11 o'clock at night, I received from the plenipotentiaries of France a note, intimating their desire of having a conference on the subject of the note written by lord Yarmouth and myself, on the 11th of the month. Of this, as well as of the answer agreeing to the proposal, I have the honour to inclose copies (marked A. and B.)—On the 26th, at the , hour appointed, I went to the office of the minister of the interior, where I found M. de Champagny and gen. Clarke, the two plenipotentiaries of the French government. The general result of what passed, impressed me with a conviction that the French plenipotentiaries no longer thought of making peace, upon the grounds on which France was understood to desire it at the time of lord Yarmouth's communication; and I am confident that the part I bore in the discussion thoroughly satisfied them, that I was resolved firmly to adhere to the ground which I had taken in the note of the 11th, on which I was invited to hear their remarks.—The hour of dinner terminated our conference, a renewal of which, on any day I should name, was after dinner anxiously solicited by M. de Champagny. I objected to it, as apparently unnecessary, and only calculated to protract my stay in this country to no purpose; but before I left him, expressed my willingness to comply once more with the wishes of the French plenipotentiaries, as a farther mark of my anxiety to do any thing which even they could think had a tendency to produce that peace, which his majesty was so anxious to accomplish on equitable terms; and another meeting was fixed, to
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First inclosure (A.)—Copy of anote from Messrs. Champagny and Clarke to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Paris, August 25th, 1806.
The plenipotentiaries of his majesty the emperor of the French, king of Italy, wishing to confer with his excellency the earl of Lauderdale, his Britannic majesty's plenipotentiary, upon the subject of the last note [of the 11th inst.] his excellency addressed to them, request his lordship will call at the office of the minister of the interior to-morrow about 3 o'clock in the afternoon, where they will meet, provided the hour is convenient to his excellency.— M. de Champagny has the honour of inviting the earl of Lauderdale to dine with him after the conference, and hopes that his excellency will bring with him to dinner Messrs. Goddard, Stewart, and Maddison. (Signed) CHAMPAGNY CLARKE.
Second inclosure (B.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to Messrs. Champagny and Clarke; dated Paris, August 25th, 1806.
The earl of Lauderdale, plenipotentiary from his Britannic majesty, has the honour to acknowledge the receipt of the note which their excellencies the French plenipotentiaries have just transmitted to him. He will do himself the honour of calling at the office of the minister of the interior, about 3 o'clock to-morrow, and of dining afterwards with his excellency M. de Champagny. Messrs. Goddard, Stewart, and Maddison will also have the honour of dining with his excellency.
Third inclosure (C.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, August 27th.
Sir; I called yesterday evening at your excellency's house, that I might have the honour of seeing you, and of informing you that, in consequence of the request which was yesterday made to me by their excellencies the French plenipotentiaries, of another conference on Friday next, the 29th instant, I have postponed my demand for passports, which I intended to make this day to your excellency. Their excellencies the French plenipotentiaries appeared to attach so much importance to, my consenting to another interview, that I gave with pleasure this new pledge of the, pacific and conciliatory spirit by which I have ever been guided; and if I, cannot flatter myself that there will result from-
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Fourth inclose re (D.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to Messrs. Champagny and Clarke; dated Paris, 29th August, 1806.
The undersigned plenipotentiary of his Britannic majesty, being on the point of renewing with their excellencies the French plenipotentiaries the conference of the 26th instant, thinks himself obliged to lay before their excellencies the state of the negociation, such as it stood after the not transmitted on the part of the undersigned and of the earl of Yarmouth on the 12th instant. Their excellencies the French plenipotentiaries will perceive from this statement, that the discussion is come to a point which will no longer permit the undersigned to continue it, unless, by the admission of the only basis on which he is authorised to negociate, their excellencies should afford him fresh motives to justify such a determination.—In the official not transmitted to their excellencies the French plenipotentiaries on the 12th of August it was observed to them, "That the British government, far from pretending to exact from the French government ever restitution which may suit their convenience, without being bound to make any restitution to France,' never expressed any other wish than that of treating with the French government on the basis which was proposed to her by France herself; as it is expressed in the note of lord Lauderdale, viz. 'to treat generally upon the basis of
uti possidetis,
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No.44.—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, August 30th, 1806.— Received September 3d.
Sir; When I reflect on the contents the dispatch I had the honour of making up for you yesterday, I cannot help anticipating the surprise with which you must receive the intelligence, that I am now under an engagement to renew the conference with the plenipotentiaries of France, on Thursday the 4th of September. On going yesterday, at 3 o'clock, to the office of the minister of the interior, I confess I did not foresee the possibility of any thing occurring that could prevent my executing the resolution I had formed, of demanding passports this morning, and of returning immediately to England. I trust I need scarcely assure you, that I have as strong an impression as any man can have of the bad consequences that may attend exhibiting any thing which looks like versatility of
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No. 45.—Extract from a dispatch from Earl Spencer to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Downing-street, September 4th 1806.
My lord; I am commanded by his majesty to inform your lordship, that he is pleased to approve entirely the conduct you have held in the circumstances detailed in your last dispatches, and to express his majesty's satisfaction in the good effect which appears to have resulted from it.—It is proper, however, to remark, that a the French plenipotentiaries have not bound themselves as yet by any written note, nor have even in conversation agreed to replace the negociation on its true basis; the present appearances of greater facility on their part, may probably arise only from their desire of keeping your lordship at Paris till the answer from Petersburgh shall be received; an object which your lordship's last note had shewn them they could no longer accomplish without some departure from the ground on which they have hitherto stood— the Russian treaty shall not be ratified, his majesty is then (as I have already observed to your lordship) replaced, with respect to the emperor Russia, in the same situation as before the signature of M. d'Oubril's treaty; but with the additional tye, which the two courts would in that case feel from the fresh proofs each will have given to the other of a steady adherence to the system of alliance: and it will then be necessary that our peace shall be so far made dependent on that of Russia as is pointed out in the instructions originally given to lord Yarmouth.—Since the above was written, we have received the important intelligence contained in the indorsed papers [intelligence of the refusal of the emperor Russia to ratify M. d'Onbril's treaty] copies of which I have thought it necessary
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No. 46.—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, Sept. 4, 1806.—Received Sept. 7th.
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The minister for foreign affairs has received the orders of his majesty the emperor and king, to hold a conference this day with his excellency lord Lauderdale. He has therefore the honour to propose to his excellency to call at the office for foreign affairs at half past two. He begs him to accept the assurance of his high consideration.
Second inclosure (B.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, Sept. 4, 1806; half past two P. M.
Lord Lauderdale has this instant received the note dated the 4th Sept. by which his excellency the minister for foreign affairs proposes to lord Lauderdale a conference at his excellency's office this day at half past two o'clock.—This invitation was not delivered at lord Lauderdale's hotel till half past two, the time specified for the conference: but lord Lauderdale will have great pleasure in waiting upon his excellency in a quarter of an hour at farthest.
No. 47.—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Paris, Sept. 7, 1806.—Received Sept. 11 th.
Sir; I received last night, by the courier Parsons, the dispatch dated the 4th Sept. signed by the earl Spencer.—Though the latter part of it is written in the knowledge that the emperor of Russia has refused to ratify the treaty made by M. d'Oubril, and refers to the instructions antecedently given me, on the supposition that this event should take place, I shall delay pressing for any renewal of the conferences, till I shall receive further advice from England.—I am led to this resolution, because I wish to hear from you after you have received my dispatch of Sept. 4th, and, because I further think that it would be highly advantageous previously to be informed concerning the nature of the communication, which the court of Petersburgh intends to make to the French government, with respect to the basis on which his imperial majesty will renew the negociation. And it appears to me from the note, a copy of which you transmitted to me, that a communication of this sort may be daily expected.
No, 48.—Extract from a dispatch from Mr. Secretary Windham to the Earl of Lau-
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My lord; Your lordship's dispatch of Sept. 4, has not failed to engage his majesty's most serious attention. The language held by M. Talleyrand appears directed to the object of engaging his majesty in a separate negociation, to the exclusion of Russia; but the interests both of this country and of Europe have always been considered here as essentially connected with the maintenance of the strictest union of councils and measures between his majesty and the emperor of Russia. It was with deep regret that his majesty saw the apparent violation of this principle in the separate treaty signed by M. d'Oubril; and he cannot but consider the steady and upright conduct of the emperor of Russia on that trying occasion, as imposing on his majesty a fresh obligation not to separate his interests from those of so honourable and faithful an ally.—Your lordship must therefore in the first place represent to the French government, that, the refusal to ratify M. d'Oubril's treaty, has replaced the two courts in their former state of close and intimate alliance; and that any attempt on the part of France to separate them, must henceforth be considered as hopeless. She can now form no expectation that she can conclude peace with either of them, until the negociation with the other shall be brought to the same conclusion.—In reverting to this resolution, his maj. does not however desire to carry the operation of this principle at all farther than before. He has no objection to its being understood as was expressed to lord Yarmouth in Mr. Fox's letter of the 26th of June, that the two courts shall treat separately in form, but in substance in concert with each other. In this mode of treating, the separate interests of Great Britain and France may as before be separately discussed between them. But his majesty is determined, as is expressed in the same dispatch, that he will not come to any final agreement without the consent of Russia; and that any arrangement of the points depending between him and France, is to be considered as provisional, and subject to the case of a like arrangement to be made by his ally.—With respect to the separate interests Of Great Britain, his majesty adheres to the basis originally proposed to him by France; and on which your ldp. has so often had occasion to insist, that. of the
uti possidetis
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uti possidetis
uti possidetis
sine quâ non
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No. 49.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Earl Spencer; dated Paris, Sept, 18, 1806.—Received Sept. 22.
My lord; I had the honour of receiving the dispatch, signed by Mr. Secretary Windham, dated Sept. 10, late in the evening of Friday last.—Unfortunately I had a slight degree of fever for tour days preceding, and I never was more unfit than on Saturday morning to attend to business of such a magnitude.—On considering the instructions contained in the dispatch with all the attention I could, they appeared to me to relate to two distinct subjects: first, to the form and manner in which his majesty thought proper that I should conduct the negociation; secondly, to the terms which under the present circumstances of the two countries, it is proper to ask.—To this distinction I conceived it to be the more necessary for me to attend, because I thought it regular and proper to address what I had to say on the first point to the minister of foreign affairs, whereas the plenipotentiaries of France, should the government authorize them to proceed, seemed the proper channel of communication on the second.—In pursuance of this idea, I immediately wrote a note, a copy of which (marked A.) I inclose, addressed to M. Talleyrand, which I sent by Mr. Goddard in the evening, as I was myself confined to my bed.—On Monday, about five o'clock, M. Talleyrand called, and though I was very ill at the time, I resolved to admit him. He sat upwards of half an hour. The outline of his conversation consisted in his expressing a desire to have a full communication with me, in his assuring me, that if the difficulties, in respect of form, could be got over, he did not think the objections to the terms would be material, and that, where peace was seriously in view, as it was with them, it figured as an object of such importance as to give a disposition to accommodate about conditions: in a word, that he had little
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First inclosure (A.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, Sept. 13, 1806.
The undersigned, plenipotentiary of. his Britannic majesty, lost no time in transmitting to his court the communication which his excellency the minister for foreign affairs made to him on Thursday the 4th inst.; and he now hastens to reply to that communication, by informing his exacellency of the line of conduct his majesty has thought proper to direct him to pursue under the present circumstances.—His Britannic majesty, ever anxious to maintain the intimate connection and alliance which subsist between his majesty and the emperor of all the Russias, naturally finds in the recent conduct of his illustrious ally, and in the proofs which he has lately afforded of the interest which he takes in the welfare of Great Britain and in the general happiness of Europe, additional motives not to, separate, in any case, his interests from. those of the court of St. Petersburgh.—It is not, however, the intention of his majesty to carry this principle farther than the earl of Yarmouth was instructed to carry it by Mr. Fox, in his lordship's communications with the French government. There is nothing to prevent the interests of Great Britain and of France from being treated separately: only his majesty does not authorize the undersigned to sign any treaty except provisionally: such treaty not to have its full effect until peace shall have been concluded between that faithful ally
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Second inclosure (B.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, Sept. 16, 1806.
Lord Lauderdale has the honour of informing his excellency M. Talleyrand, that he has passed a very bad night, and finds himself utterly incapable of entering upon business to-day.—Lord Lauderdale will have the honour of writing to his excellency to-morrow morning, when he hopes the indisposition under which he now labours, will have taken such a turn as may enable him to hold the conversation with his excellency, which he so much de-
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Third inclosure (C.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, Sept. 17, 1806.
Lord Lauderdale, although still too unwell to leave the house, thinks himself able to hold a conference with his excellency M. Talleyrand to-day, if his excellency will do him the honour of coming to the hotel de l'Empire, any time after three o'clock that may best suit his excellency.—Should this proposal interfere with his excellency's engagements, or be in any other respect inconvenient to him, lord Lauderdale hopes to be able to go out to-morrow, and will wait upon his excellency M. Talleyrand at whatever hour may best suit him.—He has the honour, &c. LAUDERDALE.
Fourth inclosure (D.)—Copy of a note from M. Talleyrand to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Paris, Sept. 17, 1806.
The prince of Benevento has this moment learnt that the messenger, Johnson, is arrived, and will be in Paris to-day. It is with sincere regret that the prince of Benevento, at the same time, heard of the death of Mr. Fox, of which event, he has the honour of informing his excellency lord Lauderdale. Mr. Spencer succeeds Mr. Fox provisionally.—The prince of Benevento hopes that lord Lauderdale finds himself better to-day. He has the honour, &c. CH. MAU. TALLEYRAND, prince of Benevento.
Fifth inclosure (E.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris,Sept. 17, 1806.
Lord Lauderdale received the note that his excellency the prince of Benevento sent him this morning, at the moment when he had just dispatched the note in which he proposed to hold a conference with his excellency this day. Lord Lauderdale
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Sixth inclosure (F.)—Copy of a note from M. Talleyrand to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Sept. 17, 1806.
The minister for foreign affairs, on his return from St. Cloud, found the note which his excellency lord Lauderdale had done him the honour of writing to him. He regrets extremely the continued indisposition of his excellency. To-morrow being the day of his official attendance at St. Cloud, he cannot have the honour of seeing his excellency, but he will not fail to wait upon him the next day about 1 o'clock.—He has the honour, &c. CH. MAU. TALLEYRAND, prince of Benevento.
No. 50.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Earl Spencer; dated Paris, Sept. 19, 1806.—Received Sept. 22.
My lord; At one o'clock this day, M Talleyrand called upon me according to the appointment which I announced to your lordship in my last dispatch. I immediately perceived, that his plan was to exhibit extreme civility, which no one knows better how to execute. After some time spent in compliments, and in condolence on the great loss the world had sustained, he told me, that as I insisted on an answer in writing, one was prepared, which contained a declaration consonant to what he supposed me to wish on the two most material points. 1st, That the emperor was willing to admit of an article being introduced to answer the objects I had in view in relation to Russia, and to instruct his plenipotentiaries to hear me with respect to the interests of that power. 2dly, That France would be ready to make great concessions for the purpose of obtaining peace.—After some conversation, all tending to impress me with the idea that peace was their main
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The undersigned, the minister for foreign affairs, has laid before his majesty the emperor, king of Italy, the note which his excellency the earl of Lauderdale, minister plenipotentiary from his Britannick majesty, did him the honour to address to him or the 13th of this month.—His majesty the emperor and king sees with regret that the negociation seems to take every day a retrograde course, and he is at a loss to discover what point the English government wish to attain.—In the first instance, obsolete forms were brought forward and urge for our acceptance, the text and the substance of which had never been admitted nor even discussed, by the French government, and when this difficulty appeared to be removed, and the French plenipoten-
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you demand our arms, come and take them.
Second Inclosure (B.)—Copy of a note from Lord Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Sept. 19th, 1806.
The undersigned plenipotentiary of his majesty the king of G. Britain, in answering the official note of his excellency the minister for foreign affairs, dated the 18th inst., which has been received to-day, begins by remarking, that he purposely abstains as much as possible from all observation upon those points contained in it, which are foreign to the immediate object in question. By this means, he will avoid discussions of a nature to lead him to forget that tone of moderation which it is his duty to observe in the whole course of his mission. He will thus maintain the line of conduct which is conformable to that love of peace, which characterizes all the proceedings of the king his master.—When the undersigned reflects, that became to Paris, authorized to conclude peace upon terms understood to have been proposed by France; that notwithstanding the refusal of his imperial majesty of all the Russias to ratify the treaty signed by M. d'Oubril, and the splendid successes obtained by his
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No. 51.—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Earl Spencer; dated Paris, Sept. 26, 1806.—Received Sept. 28th.
Nothing material happened after the conference with M. Talleyrand, which I detailed in my dispatch of the 19th inst till the 22d, when I received from him communication, informing me that the emperor having thought gen. Clarke's service near his person necessary in a journey he was about to undertake immediately, M. de Champagny would be instructed to conduct singly on the part of France the business of the negociation in future.—This communication was made in a letter which I enclose (marked A.) together with a copy of my answer (marked B.)—On the
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First inclosure (A.)—Copy of a note from M. Talleyrand to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Sept. 22, 1806.
My lord; I have the honour to inform you, that his majesty having thought it for the good of his service to retain gen. Clarke near his person, during the course of a journey he is about to undertake; M. de Champagny will henceforth be charged with conducting singly the negociation entered into with your excellency.—I have communicated his majesty's intentions to that minister, who has received orders to concert with you such measures as may prevent any interruption to the continuance of the conferences, and of the correspondence between the two missions. I should at the same time acquaint you, that being myself directed to follow his majesty, I shall nethertheless continue to correspond with your excellency as before; the general order of the service being such, as to secure the daily and regular deliver of all dispatches addressed to me on the affairs of my department. I beg, &c. CH. MAU. TALLEYRAND, prince of Benevento.
Second inclosure (B.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand dated Paris, Sept. 22, 1806.
Sir; I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your excellency's letter of this date, in which you inform me that M de Champagny will in future be directed to carry on singly the negociation with me and that this minister has received order to make such arrangements with me as may prevent any interruption to the continuance of the conferences and of the correspondence.—In returning my thanks to you excellency for this communication, I have the honour to remark to you, that it is no less essential to take measures, as you excellency will doubtless do before you departure, for ensuring a communication by messengers with my government during your absence, without any delay or obstacle whatever, in the same manner a has been practised since my arrival here. It cannot escape your excellency's observation how impossible it would be for me to transmit to you in sufficient time the
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Third inclosure (C.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. de Champagny; dated Paris, Sept. 23, 1806.
Sir; It is impossible to be more sensible than I am of the interest which your excellency takes in the state of my health. For some days past I have been much better, and I now consider myself quite or nearly well. His excellency the minister for foreign affairs has informed me, in a note of yesterday's date, that your excellency is henceforward to carry on, singly, the negociation with me. The state of my health being no longer an obstacle, I request your excellency will he pleased to consider me at your disposal, either to receive you here, or to call upon you, as it may he most convenient, in order to resume the conferences, which, from various circumstances, have been so long interrupted. I request, &c. LAUDERDALE. Fourth inclosure (D.)—Copy of a note from M. de Champagny to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Sept. 23, 1806.
M. de Champagny has learnt, with the utmost satisfaction, the re-establishment of the health of his excellency the earl of Lauderdale, and he congratulates himself on the prospect of continuing with his excellency the relations on which he sets the highest value. He is extremely anxious to renew the conferences which had been interrupted; but the extraordinary business occasioned by the approaching departure of the emperor, does not allow him to do so, either to-day or to-morrow, as he could have wished. He has, therefore, the honour to propose to his lordship Thursday next, being the first day in which he shall have a moment's leisure. The conference shall be held at whatever place and hour his lordship may name; and M. de Champagny requests him in making this appointment only to consult the state of his health. He requests, &c. CHAMPAGNY.
Fifth inclosure (E.)—Copy of a note from M. Talleyrand to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Paris, Sept. 24, 1806.
My lord; I have the honour to inform you, that I have taken his majesty's pleasure on the subject of the letter which your excellency did me the honour to ,write to
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No. 52.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Earl Spencer; dated Paris, Sept. 26, 1806.—Received Sept. 28th.
My lord; In conformity with my engagement made yesterday, which I had the honour of mentioning to your lordship in my former dispatch of this date, I waited on M. Champagny this afternoon at 2 o'clock. He informed me, that the accidental omission in his instructions had been remedied, and that he had now powers to talk with me on the interests of Russia, with a view to arrange the conditions on which France would make peace with that country: but he, at the same time, proposed, that we should, in the first instance talk over the terms of peace between France and England. I observed, that as the greatest difficulties in our last conference seemed to arise from the conditions that I had proposed as necessary to be granted to Russia; and, as England was resolved not to make peace without obtaining for Russia all the objects on which she insisted, I thought the more natural order would be, to resume our conversation on these last topics.—A long discussion accordingly ensued, which ended in his informing me that, on the subject of concession to Russia, he was authorized to communicate to me, that the government of France was willing, in addition to the treaty made by M. d'Oubril, to Cede to that power the full sovereignty of the island of Corfu; but that he had no authority to go any farther.—I then informed him, that I was sorry to learn that the negotiation was at an end, for that my instructions were precise, and that I should feel it my duty, the moment I left him, to state to M. Talleyrand, that all hopes having vanished of bringing the negotiation to a favourable issue, I had only now to request passports for my return to England.—After strong expressions of mutual regard, he attendee me to the outer room, where he again proposed a renewal of our conferences, in case his government should give him new instructions.—My answer was, that I had
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I open this dispatch to inclose a note (marked E.) I have this moment received from M. de Champagny.
First inclosure (A.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, Sept. 26, 1806.
Sir; I lose not a moment in acquainting your excellency that the result of the conference which I have had to-day with his excellency M. de Champagny, unfortunately leaves me no hope of being able to bring the negociations, on the part of G. Britain and of Russia, to a favourable issue. In this state of things, and according to my instructions, no part remains for me to take but to address myself to your excellency for passports, for my return into the presence of my sovereign. In thus making this demand to your excellency, I cannot deny myself the pleasure which I feel in expressing my thanks for all the personal attentions which your excellency has shewn to me during my residence at Paris; and in assuring your excellency at the same time, of the sentiments of esteem which I have always felt, and which I shall ever feel, for your excellency, I request, &c. LAUDERDALE.
Second inclosure (B.)—Copy of a note from M. de Champagny to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Sept. 26, 1806.
M. de Champagny has made a report to his government, of the conference which he this day held with lord Lauderdale; as several days must necessary elapse before he can receive fresh orders from his government, he thinks it may tend to advance that very desirable object, peace, to con-
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Third inclsoure (C.)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. de Champagny; dated Paris, Sept. 26, 1806.
Lord Lauderdale has this instant received the note of his excellency M. de Champagny, in which, after informing him of his having made a report to his government of this day's conference, he expresses a desire again to converse with lord Lauderdale. Although the result of the conference which lord Lauderdale has this day had with his excellency (at the conclusion of which his lordship thought it his duty to ask for passports, for which he has just made application to his excellency the minister for foreign affairs) leaves no hope of bringing the negociation to a favourable issue; the wish expressed by his excellency M.de Champagny to have another conversation with lord Lauderdale is decisive; and lord Lauderdale hastens to reply to this invitation, by informing his excellency that he will either meet him at his office, or will have the honour of receiving him at home, on Monday next, at whatever hour may best suit his excellency. Lord Lauderdale has the honour to repeat, to his excellency M. de Champagny the assurance of his high consideration.
Fourth in closure—D.)—Copy of a note from M.d' Hauterive to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Paris, Sept. 26, 1806.
My lord; I have this moment received a letter from you for the prince of Benevento. He is this instant set out, and I embrace the opportunity offered by the departure of one of his suite, whose carriage will follow him immediately, to forward it to the prince of Benevento; it will probably reach him on the road, but at all events on his arrival at Mentz. I beg, &c. HAUTERIVE.
Fifth inclosure (E.) Copy of a note from M. de Champagny to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Paris, Sept. 26, 1806.
M. de Champagny will have the honour of calling upon lord Lauderdale op Monday next, at 2 O'clock, which he supposes will be the Most convenient time.—He sends the passports lord Lauderdale desired for the messenger Basilico. He requests his excellency to accept the assurances of his high consideration.
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My lord; your dispatches of the 26th ult. brought by the messenger Johnson, have been laid before the king.—His majesty has seen with great regret that, after inure than 6 months spent in negociation, the French government still hesitates upon We admission of points constantly urged by his majesty as the only grounds on which he could consent to peace, and that in so unsatisfactory a state of things, the chief of that government, together with his principal minister, has suddenly left Paris*, creating thereby new obstacles to the progress of the negociation. Whatever views the French government may have in keeping up this state of suspence and uncertainty, his majesty feels that it is equally prejudicial to the interests of his subjects and to those of Europe. If the professions of France are sincere, there can be no reason why she should not give a plain and decisive answer to demands which have been so long under consideration; and the time is now come when such an answer must be required as indispensable to your continuance at Paris.
No. 54.—Extract from a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Viscount Howick; dated Paris, Oct. 4th, 1806.—Received Oct. 6th.
My lord; Yesterday at 4 o'clock, M. de Champagny sent me a note to announce the arrival of a courier at Boulogne, who reached Paris this morning at 3 o'clock.—On reading your lordship's dispatch, dated Oct. 1st, it appeared to me; that his majesty had been pleased to approve of the demand of passports which I had made.—Your lordship may depend on my pressing for them with the utmost possible earnestness and assiduity; but how soon I may be able to succeed, it is impossible for me, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, to prophesy.
No. 55.—Copy of a dispatch from the Earl of Lauderdale to Viscount Howick; dated Paris, Oct. 6, 1806.—Received Oct. 8.
My lord; Late last night, M. de Champagny's principal secretary called upon me with a letter from him, inclosing a letter from M. Talleyrand; both of which I have the honour of transmitting to your lordship (marked A. and B.).—From these your
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First inclosure (A.)—Copy of a note from M. de Champagny to the Earl of Lauderdale; dated Paris, Oct. 5, 1806.
M. de Champagny has. the honour to transmit to his excellency the earl of Lauderdale the accompanying dispatch, addressed to his excellency the minister for foreign affairs. He is also charged to inform him, that he is now authorized to deliver to him the passports which he has demanded. This, of all the duties which he has had a discharge towards his excellency, is the only one which will have appeared painful to him; and it will be greatly so. He waits to be informed of the further dispositions of his excellency. M. de Champagny begs, &c. CHAMPAGNY.
The undersigned, minister for foreign affairs, has laid before his majesty the emperor, king of Italy, the note which his excellency the earl of Lauderdale, minister plenipotentiary from his Britannic majesty did him the honour to address to him on the 26th of this month. His majesty, after having, from a desire of peace, listened to every proposition which could have rendered it durable and of reciprocal advantage to the two contracting powers, and to their
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Lord Lauderdale has the honour to acknowledge the receipt of the note of his excellency M. de Champagny, dated the 5th of this month, and of the dispatch which accompanied it, from his excellency the minister for foreign affairs. Lord Lauderdale, learning that his excellency M. de Champagny is authorized to deliver to him the passports which he has demanded, requests his excellency to have the goodness to forward them to him, as well for himself as for his suite, and at the same. time a separate passport for the messenger Scott, who, perhaps, may not accompany him. (Signed) LAUDERDALE.
Fourth inclosure (1)—Copy of a note from the Earl of Lauderdale to M. Talleyrand; dated Paris, Oct. 6, 1806.
The undersigned minister plenipotentiary of his Britannick majesty, received late last night the note which his excellency the minister for foreign affairs did him the honour to address to him on the 1st of this month. The undersigned, learning that his excellency M. de Champagny is authorized to grant him the passport; which he has demanded, and which he is on the point of receiving, cannot refrain from observing to his excellency the minister for foreign affairs, in answer to his note, that he has some difficulty in imaging from what circumstances his excellency has been able to infer, "that the British government have resolved to forego the prospect of peace." The undersigned was sent to France to negociate a peace, at a time when the illustrious minister, to whom his excellency has paid so just atribute of praise, presided over the department for foreign affairs. This great man then acted under the full conviction, that he had received from France an offer of peace on the basis of
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It was yesterday settled at the Porte, that the present Hospodars of Moldavia and Wallachia should be recalled, and that prince Charles Callimaki, the first dragoman of the Porte, should be named to the government of Moldavia, and prince Alexander Suzzo to that of Wallachia; at the same time Mr. Bano Hanchyry was appointed dragoman in the room of prince Callimaki.—To give you a perfect idea of the disrespect with which Russia has been treated in this instance, it is necessary that I should transmit to you an extract from the regulations respecting Moldavia and Wallachia, which were published in the year 1802. As no accusation whatever has been brought against either of the Hospodars who are now removed, there can be no excuse for breaking the convention; by which it was stipulated with Russia that 7 years should be the period of each prince's government. You will probably expect to hear that this measure has originated with the French ambassador; in effect, there are proofs sufficient that it is his work.
(Inclosure.)—Extract of a regulation respecting the principalities of Wallachia, and Moldavia; dated Sept. 24, 1802.
The term of the continuance of the Hosnodars in their governments shall from henceforth be fixed at 7 complete and entire years, to date from the day of their nomination, and if they are not guilty of any open offence, they shall not be displaced before that term is expired; if they do commit an offence daring that time, the Sublime Porte will inform the minister of Russia of the circumstance; and if, after due examination is made into the affair on both sides, it shall appear that the Hospodar has really committed an offence, in that case only his deposition shall be allowed.
No. 57.—Extract from a dispatch from Mr. Arbuthnot to Mr. Secretary Fox; dated Buyukdèrè, Sept. 29, 1806.—Received Nov. 9.
Sir; On the 18th of this month, the dragoman of the Porte communicated to Mr. Pisani [first dragoman or interpreter attached to the British mission] for my information, a note which had been presented by the French ambassador; a copy of which I have herewith the honour to inclose.(Inclosure.—) Note presented by the French
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The undersigned general of division, ambassador of his majesty, the emperor of the French, king of Italy, has the honour to lay before his excellency the Reis Effendi the following considerations. He has been positively informed, although in an indirect manner, that the Russian legation has delivered a note to the Sublime Porte, in which it is said that the emperor of Russia has refused to ratify the treaty of peace signed at Paris by his plenipotentiary. This refusal places Europe in the same situation in which she was 6 weeks ago, but it unmasks the projects of Russia. This treaty of peace stipulated for the independence of the 7 islands; a stipulation which removing the Russians from the Mediterranean, where they had established themselves in order to attack the Ottoman empire at various points, could not be acceptable to them.—Ragusa was restored to its independence under the protection of the Sublime Porte: this arrangement rendering it impossible for the Russians to keep up their intelligence with the Montenegrians and with the revolted Servians, was contrary to their views. Doubtless it is the article which stipulates for the independence of the Ottoman empire and the integrity of its territory which has occasioned the rejection of the peace at Petersburgh; Russia then perceived that she could no longer seize provinces of that empire by force of arms as she seized the Crimea, or extort them from her in time of peace, as she did with regard to Georgia and the passage of the Dardanelles. This treaty of peace, in line, leaving the French in Albania and Dalmatia, placed upon the frontiers of Turkey her most ancient ally and her most faithful friend, who would have remained and will ever remain ready to defend her. Such are the motives which have led the cabinet of Petersburgh to this refusal. I do not give way to vain declamation; I lay facts before you; I beseech you to weigh them with all the attention to which they are entitled.—If in these difficult circumstances the Porte does not form a true estimate of her dangers and of her force, if she does not form the decision her interests require of, her, I shall perhaps ere long have to lament her fate.—The undersigned has received the most positive orders from his majesty the emperor of the French, king of Italy, to de-
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DECLARATION OF THE KING OF GREAT BRITAIN; DATED OCTOBER 21, 1806.
The negotiations in which his majesty has been engaged with France having terminated unsuccessfully, his majesty thinks proper to make this public declaration to his subjects and to Europe, of the circumstances which have led to an issue which his majesty deeply regrets. He has no object nearer to his heart than the conclusion of a secure and permanent peace. He laments the continuance of a war affecting the happiness of so many nations, and which, even amidst all the successes that attend his arms, is so burthensome to his faithful and affectionate people. But he is confident that there can arise on this occasion no other sentiment, either in his own dominions, or in any part of Europe, than that of an increased conviction, that the restoration of general tranquillity is retarded only by the injustice and ambition of the enemy.—The French government, unsatisfied with its immense acquisitions on the continent, still openly perseveres in a system destructive of the independence of every other power. War is pursued, not for security but for conquest; and negociations for peace appear to be entered into for no other object than that of deluding the neighbouring powers into a state of false security, while France is herself preparing, arranging, and executing
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, December 22.
[MINUTES.]
The earl of Aylesford stated, that his majesty had been waited on with the Address of that house, to which his majesty had been pleased to return a most gracious answer, thanking the house for their determination to concur in every measure which the exigency of affairs might require.—Lord Grenville presented, by his majesty's command, the Papers respecting the late Negociation. In moving, his lordship said, to fix a day for the discussion, it was his wish, with every regard for their lordships' convenience, that, on the one hand, sufficient time should be given for the consideration of this very important subject; whilst, on the other, that no longer delay should take place than was absolutely necessary, in the expression of the opinion of that house, with respect to the result of the negociation. His lordship concluded by moving, that the papers be taken into consideration on Friday the 2d of January.—Ordered.
[BATTLE OF MAIDA—VOTES OF THANKS TO SIR J. STUART, &c.]
Lord
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, December 22.
[MINUTES.]
Lord Ossulston stated, that his majesty had been waited upon with the Address of this house upon his majesty's
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John Doyle,
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Mr. Johnstone
observed, that it was not his intention to add any thing to the very glowing and eloquent panegyric which the right hon. gentleman had pronounced; but there were one or two observations which so naturally arose out of the speech of the right hon. gent., that he could not refrain from stating them to the house, being deeply convinced that they were of great importance. He had ever regarded the right hon. gent. as one of the persons most sensible to whatever concerned the honour of the army, and the speech he had just then delivered had confirmed him in the opinion. At the same time, he had been led to believe, that the right hon. gent. was convinced, like every other gent. who had reflected much on the subject, that the best means were not found in our present military system, to excite in the army a spirit of enthusiasm, which, whenever it prevailed, was the sure omen of victory. Neither was the military profession followed by public approbation; nor was a soldier honoured and esteemed in this commercial island, in the degree due to him who devoted his life to the protection of his country. This evil was the necessary consequence of the peculiar favour with which we cherished our navy, and of the constitutional jealousy with which our military establishments were regarded. If our armies had still proved superior to those of all other nations with whom they had to contend, it resulted from the natural courage and energy of the British character. Yet every reflecting man must feel, that at the present crisis, it was desirable to practise those means used by all other powers to foster and encourage military virtues and military talents. He had therefore witnessed with much satisfaction the appointment of the right hon. gent. to the head of the war department. And when the splendid victory of Maida had been obtained, it had afforded him no less satisfaction for all the reasons that had been stated, than because it seemed to pre-
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replied, that something of the nature of that to which the hon. gent. alluded, had been already done. But the circumstances of the army and navy were so essentially different, that the two services could not, in respect of honours, be exactly assimilated.—The motions were then agreed to,
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, December 23.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Hobhouse obtained leave to bring in a bill to revise, amend, and render perpetual, the act of the 42d of the king, relative to the trial of Contested Elections; which bill the hon. member stated it to be material to carry through the house with all convenient expedition, in order that the parties concerned in the petitions which were now before the house, and about to be presented, might experience the benefits which it had been found capable of producing. The bill was brought in, read a first and second time, committed, reported, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.—The house resolved into a Committee of Supply, lord H. Petty in the chair, and the order, usual at the commencement of a session, that a Supply be granted to his majesty, was moved by Mr. Vansittart, and agreed to.—Mr. C. Wynne gave notice, that he would to-morrow move for leave to bring in a bill to continue and amend the Thames Police act.—The hon. gent. also called the attention of the house to an order made in the year 1805, that a return should be made of the Lunatics and Insane Persons in custody throughout Great Britain, in consequence of which order many returns had been made. But these and other similar returns could not, he understood, be laid before the house, unless the order referred to should be renewed. He therefore moved, that this order should be renewed. Ordered accordingly.—Mr. Biddulph gave notice that as the chairman of the committee of Ways and Means
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[GALWAY ELECTION WRIT.]
observed, that in consequence of a return for the county of Galway, or rather something described as a return for that county, he felt it his duty to bring the subject before the house. The sheriff of Galway had thought proper to return, in compliance with the exigency of the writ, merely that the election was not concluded, and that he should keep it open until all the electors in the county should be polled. This mode of proceeding, the noble lord conceived the house must feel to be as highly irregular as the return to be unsatisfactory, and of course it required investigation. He therefore moved, that the deputy clerk of the crown should appear at the bar to-morrow, with the last return for the county of Galway, and when this return should be laid on the table, the noble lord stated it to be his intention to move on an early day, that the subject should be taken into farther consideration, and that the sheriff of Galway should be called to the bar.
Mr. Corry
took occasion to observe, that there was no law in Ireland, as in this country, to limit the continuance of elections in any other respect than that prescribed by the exigency of the writ, and that the case alluded to by the noble lord, was not without precedent in that country. He remembered an instance where a returning officer had made a special return of the same nature; and possibly the sheriff of Galway might have acted upon the same precedent. Upon this point however, he could not venture to speak with precision, as he was wholly unacquainted with the circumstances of the Galway election; but he thought it necessary, for the information of the noble lord and for the animadversion of the house, to state the precedent to which he had alluded.
Lord Howick
said, he was aware of the fact stated by the right hon. gent., that the law for limiting the duration of Elections in this country did not exist in Ireland, and suggested for the consideration of the
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, December 24.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of lord Howick, it was ordered that the house should, at its rising, adjourn to Monday the 29th instant.—On the motion of Mr. Hobhouse, the Election Trial bill was read a third time, and passed.—On the motion of Mr. Free-mantle, the order for the consideration of the Saltash Election petition, was postponed from Tuesday 13th to Tuesday 27th Jan. on the ground that the evidence would not be in readiness till that day.—Admiral Markham moved, that the Navy Estimates for 1807, be laid before the house.—The secretary at war and Mr. Calcraft made similar motions with respect to the Army and Ordnance Estimates; and Mr. Vansittart moved, that an humble address be presented to his majesty, requesting him to direct the said Estimates to be laid before the house. Ordered.
[GALWAY ELECTION WRIT.]
On the motion of lord Howick, the order for the attendance of the deputy clerk of the crown, with the return for the county of Galway, was read. The deputy clerk was in attendance, and the return was read. It stated that the sheriff, in obedience to his majesty's, writ, had proceeded in due time to the poll, and proceeded with all due diligence, it being kept open seven hours in each day: but that on the 15th of December, the day before which the return should have been made; the suffrages of a great number of freeholders remained still un-
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Lord Howick
said, it was his intention to have followed up the substantiation of the default of the sheriff in not having made the return by the day when it was required, with a motion that he should be ordered to attend at the bar to abide the judgement of the house. But in consideration of the precedent stated by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Corry) last night, and from there being no room to suppose that the sheriff had been wilfully negligent of his duty, he should wave that proceeding, and rest satisfied with the real return.
Mr. Corry
was happy that his recollection had tended to save the house and the sheriff the pain of misplaced severity. But he hoped the Irish gentlemen would, in the course of the present session, consider the propriety of amending the Irish election laws in this and many other particulars.
[SALARY OF THE CHAIRMAN OF THE WAYS AND MEANS.]
Mr. Biddulph rose, pursuant to, notice, to make his promised motion, relative to the Salary of the Chairman of the Ways and Means. This salary, in his opinion, might be saved to the public. As he considered it as of extreme moment that the motion which he was now to make in furtherance of that economy which had been so warmly recommended in his majesty's speech, should not suffer from any thing connected with the person by whom it was brought forward, he disclaimed all intention of hostility to his majesty's ministers; he was fully sensible of their great talents, the purity of their motives, and their resolution to redeem the pledges of economy which they had given. If this had not been their intention, he was persuaded that the passage to which he alluded would not have been inserted in his majesty's speech. He admired the ability of ministers, and particularly of the noble lord (Howick) who had lately made a speech so distinguished for its eloquence, and so well calculated to make the deepest impression. The measure which he had to recommend, if carried into execution, would be attended with the happiest effects. As to the individual who was said to be named to the situation of chair-
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rose. He thanked his hon. friend for the favourable sentiments he entertained of his majesty's ministers, who, he assured him, were determined to practise the economy recommended in his majesty's speech. He exceedingly regretted, however, that the motion of his hon. friend was of such a sort as placed him under the necessity of appearing to resist that disposition, which had been manifested by his majesty, with regard to public economy. He felt as strongly as his hon. friend, or as any one, the necessity of economy, and of confining within the narrowest possible limits the supplies for those efforts which were now more than ever requisite. But feeling the obligation imposed by the pledges which had been given, he was sure that it was not his majesty's intention to limit an expence which was necessary for the due execution of a laborious and indispensable duty. This was not one of the points to which that economy could be properly applied. His hon. friend had fallen into two mistakes. He had alluded to a person, as appointed to this duty, for which, indeed, none could be better qualified. But the fact was, that no such appointment had been made. It was only when the house was in a particular committee, and when a call was made for such a person, that the appointment of a chairman took place. There had as yet been no such committee, nor had there been any such call. His hon. friend had fallen into another mistake. No salary was at present fixed for the place. Since the revolution, till of late years, there had been a salary attached to it, which had been paid out of the civil list. But the
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in reply, said he had not been aware that no salary was attached to this office. But even upon the ground that the remuneration was not voted till the end of the session, he did not think his resolution so ill-timed. If agreed to at the present moment, it would at least have the effect of removing every expectation of
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[WESTMINSTER ELECTION PETITION.] Lord Folkestone,
pursuant to notice, rose to move that the order for taking the Westminster Election petition into consideration on the 13th of January, should be discharged, for the purpose of postponing it to a future day. The circumstances on which this motion was grounded were these; he had presented the petition on the earliest possible day. In balloting for the petitions, the Westminster had come out of the glass the fourth, and consequently was appointed for the second day for considering Election petitions. Since that time, he understood that it was not supposed he would have presented it so soon, and the agents informed him that there was such a mass of evidence to be collected, as might naturally be supposed in such a city as Westminster, that they could not be ready by the time appointed. The noble lord hoped that the house would not be disposed to make the petitioner suffer from any mistake of his in presenting the petition, and concluded by moving, "That the order for considering the Westminster Election petition on the 13th of January, be discharged, and that it be fixed for the 24th of February."
Mr. Sheridan
said, that after the communication which he had had with the noble lord, he would not oppose his motion; but he did not yield from any weight in his lord-
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Mr. Perceval
said, that instead of forcing this matter forward on a former night, he had expressly abstained from agitating it, on the ground of the absence of the right hon. gent. The noble lord (H. Petty) had, however, ingeniously put into his mouth the expressions now brought forward by the right hon. gent., but he had disclaimed them. He had, however, no hesitation now, nor at any time, to answer for what he did say. The expression, the wit of which the right hon. gent. described as equal to its candour, arose from the accident of his having seen the right hon. gent. parading the streets in a sort of triumphal car, decorated with laurels—[a loud laugh]. The hon. gent.had said, that it was contrary to his practice to adhere to his opinions. That was an accusation that came rather oddly from the right hon. gent., and those who sat with him on the other side of the house. With respect to himself, he was not aware of any such deficiency in adhering to his opinions as the right hon. gent. imputed to him. Certainly his opinions on the subject now before the house had undergone no change, and he saw no reason to change them. With respect to the right hon. gent.'s challenge to meet him on the hustings in Covent Garden, he had to excuse himself, on the ground that he had constituents who had shewn him uniform favour since they had returned him to the first parliament he had sat in. These constituents he was attached to, and was unwilling to desert them for the ambition of representing any greater place. The right hon. gent. had at times spoken of a similar attachment, though he had afterwards found it so easy to get rid of it. At least, such was the amount of what was represented in the news-papers, in the right hon. gent.'s name. But, perhaps, what was, thus stated on the subject, was not authentic. It was easy to credit an excuse of that kind from the extravagancies contained in the speeches imputed to the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Sheridan
said, that when he stood for Westminster, it was with the full permission of the electors of Stafford [a laugh]. It was not, however, the severity of the learned gent.'s remarks that he complained
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Lord Folkestone
said, that he had not been aware of the circumstance with respect to the circuit, and that it certainly would be necessary to accommodate the counsel.—The motion was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, December 29.
[MINUTES.]
Upon the motion of Mr. Swan, the consideration of the petition relative to the Penrhyn Election was discharged, and fixed for the 29th of January. The consideration of a petition from the hon. Wm. Ponsonby, relative to the county of Londonderry Election, was fixed for the same day.—Two petitions were presented complaining of the return for Horsham, and they were appointed for consideration upon the same day as that fixed for the petition already before the house respecting the said election.—A petition from Mr. T. Jones against the Return for Shrewsbury was laid upon the table; and upon the speaker's moving, that it should be considered on the first vacant day, namely, the 3d of February, Mr. Johnstone, understanding that further time was required for the accommodation of the parties to this petition, proposed the 14th of February. The speaker felt it his duty to observe, that the proposed postponement would be a departure from the general practice of the house in such cases; the earliest vacant day being uniformly fixed upon in the first instance: and if any farther postponement were afterwards required, it was generally the practice of the house to accede to it, upon special cause being assigned. Having stated the practice on such occasions, it was of course for the discretion of the house to determine upon the course to be pursued in this instance. Some conversation arose upon this point, in which lord Howick, lord H. Petty, and Mr. Bennet, one of the parties interested in the petition, took a part, and concurred in the propriety of the speaker's objections; Mr. Bennet observing, that the proposed delay would interfere with the assize. Mr. Johnstone then proposed
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[NAVY ESTIMATES.]
Mr. T. Grenville moved, that the house should resolve itself into a committee of supply. Upon the speaker's leaving the chair, there was a general cry of "Mr. Hobhouse to the chair!" That hon. gent. accordingly took his seat at the table, and is therefore considered as chairman of the committees of supply and ways and means.
Mr. T. Grenville
(first lord of the admiralty) then rose. He said, that from the situation which he now held, it became his duty to submit to the consideration of the committee the necessary Naval Supplies proposed to be granted to his majesty. There being no particular circumstances in the Estimates which he deemed necessary to lay before the committee, that differed from those of the preceding year, he did not deem it necessary to detain the committee with any preliminary observations. He should confine himself entirely to stating, that what he had to propose to the house, as to the number of men to serve in his majesty's navy, and the expence attending them, was precisely the same as had been voted last year. But although he declined making any observations at present, he should of course avail himself of his right to reply to any remarks that might be offered upon this subject. The right hon. gent. concluded with moving the following resolutions, which were agreed
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, December 30.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Raine gave notice that he should, on Friday next, move for leave to bring in a bill to explain and amend two acts, the 2d of Richard II. and the 32d of Henry VIII, for the preventing of any man of law from acting as a justice of assize in his own county. These acts imposed a penalty of 100
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[DISTILLATION OF SUGAR.]
Lord Temple rose pursuant to notice, to move that a committee be appointed to consider of the possibility, and, if possible, of the propriety of permitting Sugar and Molasses to be used in Distilleries and Breweries. In making this motion, it was not his intention to pledge either himself or the house to the measure. He wished at present only that a committee should be appointed to enquire into the subject, leaving it open to the house to take such proceeding hereafter as the circumstances of the case should be found to require. In the present situation of affairs, the circumstances of the continental nations must necessarily bear hard on many branches of commerce, but on none more heavily than upon our West-India trade. It was ascertained that there were at present in the port of London alone, between 80 and
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Mr. Dent
expressed an earnest wish, that this important subject should not be hastily decided upon, but that sufficient time should be afforded for a mature consideration of all the great interests connected with it.
Lord Temple
was disposed to afford all the parties whose interests might be concerned, a full opportunity of being heard, and it was with that view that he had adopted the mode he had just proposed, of appointing a committee before which all such parties might be heard. But from the circumstances he had stated, it would be obvious that some immediate relief was necessary, and that his object would he defeated by any considerable delay.
Mr. Baker
hoped that those gentlemen who proposed to bring forward this measure, would consider well what effect it might have on the value of lands and the interests of agriculture in this country. He was aware that there might be many circumstances which would require of the legislature to attend particularly to particular branches of the property and trade of the country; but he did hope that, in the
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[WOOLLEN TRADE.]
Lord Temple,
pursuant to notice, begged leave to call the attention of the house to the state of the Woollen Manufacture of the country, and of the laws relating to that important subject. A committee had been appointed last session to consider of the matter, and had taken a large mass of evidence upon every part of the case. It had been the intention of the gentlemen who promoted that enquiry, to follow up the investigation by some legislative measure, which might provide some remedy for all the inconveniences resulting from the operation of the statutes then in existence. The dissolution of parliament, however, by precluding the house from instituting any proceeding upon a report of the committee of another parliament, had made it necessary to take up the business anew. The course he proposed to follow, therefore, was to move that the laws relating to the Woollen Manufactures be referred to a committee, and also the report of the committee of last session. Upon the report of this committee, the house would found the ulterior measure that was necessary for the interest of this important branch of our manufactures. From communications which he had had with the parties most interested, he had the satisfaction to state that they did not propose to bring forward any fresh evidence, but were prepared to rest upon the case they had made out last session. He expected, therefore, that the question would be brought to issue in the present session. But whatever pleasure he should feel in bringing it to a satisfactory termination, he was not disposed to object to hearing any further evidence, which might be thought essential. It was his wish that all the parties interested should be fully heard, if they had not felt that the case as made out before the former committee was fully sufficient.—The several laws relating
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[NEGOCIATION WITH FRANCE.]
Mr. Perceval
rose for the purpose of putting one or two questions to the noble lord opposite (lord Howick), on the subject of the papers then in the hands of the members of the house, with a view to obtain information upon certain points, which appeared to him to require to be further elucidated; He wished to put the questions to the noble lord, because the answers he might receive; might perhaps render it unnecessary for him to give any notice of a motion on the subject, and it might also happen, that the noble lord, when informed of the points to which his enquiries were directed, might not have any objection to accede to such motion as should be necessary, in order to cone at the information he required, in the most satisfactory manner. He should, therefore, state the points on which he thought information necessary, and be guided by the answers he should receive, as to the course he should ultimately adopt. The fist point upon which he wished to be informed, related to an extraordinary interpolation, which appeared in the letter from M. Talleyrand to Mr. Secretary Fox, dated April 1, as published by the French government, when compared with the letter of the same date in the official papers on the table (p. 95.) He wished to know whether there had been a passage similar to that extraordinary interpolation in any letter received by Mr. Fox from M. Talleyrand, and also whether any answer had been returned by Mr. Fox to that letter. The next object of the information he desired was the letter No. 3, from M. Talleyrand, dated March 5, as it appeared in the papers before the house. This was evidently an extract from the letter received by Mr. Fox, and it struck him that it would be extremely desirable, previous to the discussion of the papers, that the house should be in possession of the whole of this document. Of this he was so convinced, that if the noble lord should not be prepared to produce the document to the house, he should feel it his duty to make a specific motion upon the subject, reserving his reasons until he should come to make the motion. This letter, he was aware, was a private one; but as it had been made the channel of communication upon the relations of the two countries,
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Lord Howick
said, he was most willing to give every explanation on the subject of any part of the papers that were to be discussed an Monday, which might be thought
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Mr. Perceval
admitted the statement of the noble lord to be satisfactory upon this point, as well as upon most of the other points upon which he had called for information. But until this statement had been made, they had no means of knowing what were the terms upon which Russia proposed to treat. However, as the communication had been made to the French government, he did not think there could be much impropriety in producing it to the house. But he would not press this farther. The statement in lord Lauderdale's note, appeared to him to refer to something that had occurred previous to the signature of the separate treaty; it might be an allusion to something that had been previously communicated by the court of Russia. There was one point upon which the noble lord's statement was not satisfactory to his mind, and therefore he should feel himself bound to submit a motion to the house upon the subject. If the house would permit him, he would then state the grounds upon which he meant to bring the motion forward. This course would save the time of the house, and prevent the necessity of his returning again to the subject. The two governments appeared to him to be at present at issue upon a fact. If there was any assertion in his majesty's declaration that was not true, the ministers who had advised the insertion of it, were guilty of a heinous offence by such conduct. It was necessary for the house to have every document that could throw any light upon this point. In the extract from M. Talleyrand's letter to Mr. Fox, stated, "if you are pacifically disposed, you know where to find the basis upon which to negociate." If this expression referred to the extract from Buonaparte's speech, it could not mean the
uti possidetis,
uti possidetis.
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Lord Howick
observed, that if, after the manner in which he had assured the learned gent., that the whole of the letter that had any reference to the negotiation had been produced, he should still persist in his motion, he should not object to it. He doubted, however, whether the mode adopted by the learned gent. was the proper one to attain his object. This letter was not preserved in any of the public offices. However, there could be no doubt that a document in the possession of his majesty's servants would be produced, if his majesty should lay his commands upon him for that purpose. To the whole of the doctrine laid down by the learned gent. as to the heinous nature of the offence, if his majesty's ministers were to introduce any false assertion into a declaration bearing Ins majesty's signature, he fully subscribed. But when his majesty's ministers laid papers before the house, they were bound upon their responsibility to lay the whole that bore any reference to the case. He took that occasion to repeat, what he as expressly declared before, that the whole of the remainder of that letter had no reference whatever to the overture for negotiation. When he said this, he meant none that he knew of. He could not tell what reference to that overture might be discovered by the ingenuity of the gentlemen opposite in the expressions of civility, which it might be found to contain, but he could positively assert, that it contained no direct reference whatever to that subject. As to the other ground upon which the learned gent. had thought proper to
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Mr. Canning
observed, that the fact at issue between the two governments was not with respect to the first overture, but to the basis of negociation. His majesty's declaration stated, that the overture on the basis of the
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Lord Howick
stated that there were certainly no papers that could be produced in which the
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did not mean to insinuate that lord Yarmouth's word was not a sufficient authority, but he would not admit
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Mr. Sheridan
rose just to make a single observation. When his noble friend had assured the learned gentleman that no part of the remainder of the letter for which he had moved had any reference to the case, it appeared to him that his word might have been taken. As to the point upon which the learned gent. seemed, to be so anxious for information, that was precisely the case that was to be discussed on Monday next. He was only surprized that the learned gent. should have expected to discover in some other part of the letter a basis different from that contained in the part that has been extracted. If the learned gent. Had looked, a little farther into it, he might, perhaps, have found wherewith to satisfy his curiosity. All that part of the letter that related to the case, had been submitted to his majesty, and certainly there was no necessity for laying any more of it before parliament.
Mr. Perceval
pleaded guilty to the absurdity charged upon him by the right hon. gent., if it was an absurdity to think to find out that his majesty's present ministers had dime something wrong, for to that, and that only, the right hon. gentleman's argument would come. All he wanted to know was, whether there was any passage in the letter which referred to any other basis than the treaty of Amiens. As the noble lord had stated that there was no reference to any such basis contained in it, and the noble lord had also declared, that he was satisfied to take the argument upon the papers, as at present before the house, he had no objection, with the permission of the house, to withdraw his motion.
Lord Yarmouth
begged leave to say a few words on something that had fallen from the learned gent. in a former part of the debate, before the motion should be disposed of. That learned gent. had desired to be informed whether he had received any communication from his majesty's government before he left France. To this he had to answer that he had not received any communication whatever, Here he begged to state to the house the reason why he had been selected to be the bearer of the communication to Mr. Fox. The letters that had passed between Mr. Fox and M. Talleyrand, had usually been accompanied with private letters. In some
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, December 31.
[MINUTES.]
This day the house met, conformably to adjournment.—It was or–dered, on the motion of lord Walsingham, that no petitions for private bills be received after the 27th of February next. Also, that no reports from the Judges, upon petitions for private bills be recei–ved after the first day after the Easter recess.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up from the commons a bill for amending and explain–ing the act for regulating the Trial of Contested Elections.—Mr. Johnson, from the office of the secretary of state for Ireland, presented the 32d Report of the trial Com
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, December 31.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Johnson, from the chief secretary's office, presented the 32d Report of the commissioners of Accounts in Ireland, which was ordered to be laid on the table, and printed.—On the motion of Mr. Parnell, it was ordered, That there be laid before this house, an Account of the sums levied by Grand Juries of the several counties in Ireland, respectively, for 4 years, from Jan. 1, 1803, distinguishing each year and each assize; and distinguishing the sums levied for the Militia, from those levied for other purposes, together with an account of the rate per acre on the county at large, of the sum levied in each county in each year.—Mr. Fellowes moved, That the order made on the 8th day of July in the last session of the last parliament, "That there be prepared a copy of the return or returns made to the Privy Council by every Archbishop and Bishop of the names of every Dignity, Prebend, Benefice, Dona–tive, Perpetual Curacy, and Parochial Chapelry, within their respective dioceses, or subject to their respective jurisdictions, and the names of the several persons pos–sessing the same, who shall not have re–sided thereon by reason of any exemption under or by virtue of the Act of 43 Geo. III. c. 84; and also of all the persons pos–sessing the same not having any such ex-exemption or licence, who shall not have resided on such Dignity, Prebend, Bene–fice, Donative, Perpetual Curacy, or Parochial Chapelry, so far as the bishop is informed thereof, in order to the same being laid before the house early in the next session of parliament," might be read; and the same being read, it was ordered that the said returns be laid before the house.—The following Election Petitions were presented, and fixed for considera–tion, viz. Two from Downpatrick Bo–rough, complaining, on the part of J. W. Croker, Esq. and the Electors in his interest, of the return of E. S. Ruthven,.esq. to be considered on Thursday, Feb. 12.—Liskeard, on the part of Capt. Tomlinson, to be considered on Tuesday, Feb. 17.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, it was ordered that there be laid before the house an account of the Exchequer Bills out–standing, under the act of last session for raising 10,500,000
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, January 1, 1807.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Parkhurst, secretary to the Carnatic commissioners, presented the first report of that board, which was ordered to lie on the table.—The Election Trial bill was read a second time and committed.—The lord Chancellor said, he was authorized by his noble friend (lord Grenville) to give notice that the noble lord intended to present to the house the next day, a bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, January 1, 1807.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Parkhurst, from the commissioners for liquidating the Carnatic debts, presented their first report to the house, which was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—Mr. Vansittart presented an account of Exchequer Bills outstanding and unprovided for. Ordered to lie on the table.—He then gave notice that he would the next day in the committee of supply, move for an issue of Exchequer Bills.—On Mr. Vansittart's moving that the Oak Bark regrating indemnity bill be read a second time, lord Folkestone, although he had himself no objection to the bill, yet, as it would affect the interests of many individuals in the country, he trusted the hon. gent. would not press it through the house before those individuals could learn the nature of the provisions in which they were interested. Mr. Vansittart acquiescing, though at the same time declaring that it was indispensable that no great delay should take place, the second reading was postponed to Monday.—Petitions were presented against the returns for the following places:—Sudbury. The ground of complaint in the petition was treating. Ordered to be taken into consideration on Tuesday, the 17th of February. Rochester.
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[RESOLUTIONS RELATING TO PRIVATE BILLS.]
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Mr. Johnstone
observed, that as the noble lord had the concurrence of the county members, and of those who were best acquainted with the subject, he had no very great objection to these propositions. But he must say, at the same time, that they were what a right hon. friend of the noble lord's (Mr. Windham) had characterized as measures of unnecessary legislation. The grounds stated by the noble lord did not altogether bear him out. He had not proved that any great inconvenience resulted from those bills accumu-
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Mr. Brugge Bathurst
dissented completely from the opinion of the hon. gentleman who spoke last. This was not a measure of unnecessary legislation. It was only, as the noble lord had stated, following up the principle which had already been adopted by the house. It was not a matter of legislation at all, but of regulation only. The adoption of the resolutions, he contended, would be attended with great convenience both to the parties and to particular members, as well as to the house. Parties could not force their agents to come to the house within a particular time; and with regard to the expenses of such delays, they were completely in the hands of these agents. The house, therefore, ought to assist them and enable them to obtain justice with as little expence, and with as much dispatch as possible.
Mr. Fuller
highly approved of the resolutions, as they might be the means of shortening the session, and prove very convenient to the country gentlemen, and to those who did not come to the house to make their fortunes.
Mr. Fellowes
agreed that they would be very convenient. He himself had often felt the great inconvenience attending the delays that took place in cases of private bills, and thought that the house was under great obligations to the noble lord for having turned his attention to the subject, He suggested the propriety of having the private bills enumerated in the votes, and the days in which they came on, that members might have the earliest and most authentic notice on that point. This he merely threw out as a suggestion for the consideration of his lordship.
Mr. Johnstone
observing upon the point of shortening the session, asked whether the noble lord was diffident as to the number and sentiments of his friends, since he betrayed so much anxiety to get rid of them?
Lord Howick
replied, that he only felt anxious to promote the convenience of the house and of the parties. Suppose that from what happened last year, that members should expect that 78 reports of private bills might be received after the birth-day, the consequence would be, that,
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, January 2.
[SLAVE TRADE.]
Lord Grenville brought in a bill for abolishing the Slave Trade, which was read a first time. His lordship then rose to move, that the bill be printed, and took that opportunity of observing, that no person could be more sensible than he was of the great importance of the measure now submitted to the house, and of the propriety of giving full time for its due consideration. He therefore informed their lordships, that he intended to give about a fortnight's notice before he should move the second reading. When the printed copies of the bill were on the table, he should propose to fix a day for the next motion; in the mean time he moved, that the bill be printed.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that he thought it necessary to call the attention of the house to the proceedings of the last session of parliament, on the subject now under consideration. It would be recollected that a Resolution was then come to, for an address to his majesty, which was nearly in the same terms as the preamble of the bill the noble lord had introduced. The object of that address was to learn how far other powers were disposed to concur in the abolition of the Slave trade. He thought, therefore, that their lordships ought to be put in possession of any correspondence which might have taken place with other governments in consequence of that address. Whether there had been any communications between his majesty's government and the governments of other countries on this subject or not, parliament ought to be made acquainted with the fact. He should not press any motion on this topic at present, but it was one which ought to be explained when their lordships proceeded to the consideration of the bill.
Lord Eldon
thought that some explanation was necessary respecting the title of
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Lord Grenville
repeated, that he was sensible of the high importance of the subject to be discussed, but he was also, in his own mind, convinced that the time was now arrived when no solid objection could be offered to the abolition of the traffic in slaves on the coast of Africa. On this question he believed there was, generally speaking, but very little difference of opinion in this country; but this was not the day on which it was to be discussed. Before the day for the second reading should be fixed, he intended not only to give such notice as the other orders of the house required, but such as the peculiar importance of the subject itself demanded. Whether we were to continue the African Slave trade, because there were difficulties in the way of abolishing it in the West Indies, or whether we were to practise a great enormity, because other persons in other countries might not choose to abandon it, the house was not then called upon to decide. The only question at present before their lordships was, whether this bill should be printed. He did not therefore think it necessary to enter into the consideration of topics, the discussion of which, at this moment, could serve no purpose but that of delay.
Lord Eldon
remarked, in explanation, that he had intimated no wish for delay. No such sentiment had ever at any time fallen from his lips as a desire to procrastinate the determination of the house on this important subject. He had only called upon the noble lord to state, whether, by the bill for abolishing the Slave trade, he meant the African Slave trade, or the trade in general. The noble lord, he understood, had admitted that the bill was to extend to the African trade only. He thought, however, that their lordships would, upon consideration, find that this mode of proceeding was impracticable,
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Earl Grosvenor
expressed his anxious wish to see the odious traffic in human beings every where abolished.
The Duke of Clarence
observed, that he had not opposed the first reading of the bill, because he always considered that proceeding a matter of form, and wished to reserve what he had to say until the subsequent stages of the bill. For the same reason, he should not oppose the motion for printing the bill. As, however, other noble lords had thought fit to bring the subject of the Slave Trade in some degree into discussion, his royal highness would just take the liberty of observing, that he had frequently given his opinion on that important question since he had had a seat in parliament, and his opinion was well known to the house and to the public. His sentiments, he assured their lordships, still remained unaltered, and it would require very great and very unexpected arguments indeed to induce him to change his mind on a subject which he had so maturely considered.—The bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
[NEGOCIATION WITH FRANCE.]
The order of the day being read for summoning their lordships to take into consideration the Papers relative to the late Negociation with France,
Lord Grenville
rose, and spoke as follows: My lords, having had the honour of presenting to your lordships the Papers relative to the late Negociation between this country and France, it now becomes my duty to move your lordships to address his majesty on the result of that negociation. I do not think it necessary to enter into any lengthened detail upon a subject which is already so fully and amply before your lordships by means of the papers on the table. The documents which are in your lordships' hands, are fuller and more ample than have been presented to parliament on any former occasion of a similar nature, certainly more so than in those cases respecting which it has formerly been my duty to present papers to parliament. It would not, perhaps, have been advisable that these papers should be so minute in their details, had it not been for the very full, though not equally correct statement published by the French government. It
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Lord Hawkesbury rose,
and said:— Although, my lords, we may differ in some instances with respect to the particular mode and course pursued in this negociation, yet, on the present occasion, there can be no room for difference as to the great principles and the result. I am convinced, that, at this moment, while our enemy continues to pursue his aggressions, and to follow that system by which his conduct has been regulated since the commencement of his career, such a peace as we alone look to as affording security to ourselves and allies is utterly unattainable. I therefore most completely concur with the noble lord upon the great points which he has stated, and of course do not feel desirous of urging any material objection to the address. At the same time this address may, in some parts, be liable to ambiguity, and therefore, if I do agree to it, it must be with some qualification. But, my lords, I most particularly approve of the conduct of the government, in the good faith which it has maintained with respect to our allies. And if Russia had insisted upon the evacuation of Dalmatia by the French, and if that were the only point of difference between us and the French government, I have no hesitation in saying that, upon that point alone, ministers would have been fully justified in breaking off the negociation. I have always thought, and maintained, my lords, that if there was any point which ought to be attended to more than another, if there was any point which ought to be insisted on in preference
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Lord Sidmouth
My lords, after having attended to the able speech which we have just heard from the noble baron, I feel myself called upon to request your lordships indulgence, if I trespass for a short time in noticing some points in the noble lord's speech; and, my lords, I must say, that it was with a degree of pain and concern, I heard the noble lord declaring, that he could only give a qualified approbation of the address to his majesty, which is this night submitted for your lordship's adoption. The noble lord laments, that the declaration of his majesty, stating the causes of the rupture of the negociation with France, should contain an averment, which is not clearly made out by proof in the papers submitted to your lordships' consideration; I mean, that the negociation was commenced in consequence of the offer of the
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Earl Grosvenor
declared that if he were to confine his observations to the papers on the table, he should have very little with which to trouble the house, for in the most dispassionate and impartial examination of them, it distinctly appeared to him, that throughout the whole of the late negociation, there was evinced on the part of the British government the utmost sincerity and good faith; on the part of the French government, the utmost artifice and duplicity. He thought it perfectly apparent that the
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Lord Eldon.
—I rise, my lords, with feelings peculiarly alive to the strong necessity of carrying fully into effect that part of the address proposed by the noble baron, of supporting with the most unceasing vigour and undaunted resolution the great contest in which we are engaged. Whoever reflects on what may prove the final issue of that contest, of what may prove the fate of this empire; whoever feels for the honour and happiness of Great Britain, must perceive, that the only chance of safety, and the great hope of ultimate and decisive triumph, now depends upon a vigorous prosecution of the war. Whilst, then, the genuine British feeling continues to animate the people of this empire, I am convinced there is not a man in this house, or in this country, who would not rather perish in the calamitous conflict, than willingly compromise the dignified character of Britain, or tamely submit to any base acknowledgement of inferiority to any enemy, however extensive his territorial influence, or splendid his military success. But, my lords, in entering into the discussion of the merits of the late negociation, anxious as I feel to express my approbation of the conduct of his majesty's government in fully supporting the acknowledged character of this country for sincerity and good faith; satisfied as I am with the manner in which the interests and safety of our allies have been preserved, as well of those powers to whom we were bound by the solemn com-
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Lord Grenville
had an anxiety far beyond any personal consideration, that the cause of the country on this great question should stand clear, and its rectitude and truth unquestioned. He was rejoiced to find, than in this enlightened assembly, there was no doubt as to the propriety with which the cause of the country had been conducted that affected any one great principle. He was happy to think that there was no Englishman, who, on reading the papers before their lordships, but would say, with that noble energy which was so well conveyed in the language of the learned lord opposite, that he was unworthy of the name of Englishman, who, after his majesty's efforts for the restoration of peace had been frustrated, as the papers evinced, by the unprincipled ambition and bad faith of the enemy, would not be content to shed the last drop of his blood in support of the just cause of his majesty and the country. When he had with so much satisfaction heard this grand principle so eloquently enforced, it was with infinite regret that he heard the noble and eloquent lord enter into the consideration of points of such minute importance that they were no better than mere matters of technical form. It was with infinite pain that he should follow the noble and eloquent lord through these petty details. But he said it might seem disrespectful towards the house, if his majesty's ministers should leave even this part of the objections made to their conduct unanswered and unexplained. Yet if the objection urged by the noble and learned lord were even universally felt, that would not prove that the cause of the country was wrong, or that any error had been committed in the management of the negociation. The most it could amount to would be, that some inaccuracy had been fallen into by those who drew up the Declaration, for he was sure no wilful mis-statement would be suspected, in laying the case before parliament and the public. The noble lord on the other side maintained that there was nothing in the papers on the table to sustain the assertion, that the French government ever proposed to treat upon the basis of the
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Lord Eldon
in explanation, disclaimed any intention of casting a reflection upon the conduct or character of the distinguished statesman alluded to, but repeated his assertion, that in the correspondence which took place from March to June, there was not one word about the
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Lord Lauderdale
expressed his happiness to find, that the address before the house was likely to meet with their lordships' unanimous concurrence, but at the same time he could not help observing, that in the course of the discussion, a vast deal of extraneous matter had been introduced, and particularly by the learned lord who spoke last but one. It was not, however, his intention to follow that learned lord either in his irrelevant remarks, or in that part of his speech which had relevancy to the subject under consideration. He could not think of detaining the attention of the house as to the one, and the able and impressive manner in which the case had been opened by his noble friend on the bench near him (lord Grenville) rendered it quite unnecessary for him to offer many observations with regard to the other. He did not rise, therefore, so much with the intention of adding any thing in the shape of argument to what the house had heard from his noble friend, as in order to give his testimony to the learned lord opposite (lord Eldon). But, before he pro-
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, January 2.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Vansittart brought up the Malt-Duty bill, and the Pensions Duty
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, January 3.
[MINUTES.]
The Speaker acquainted the house, that he having been returned to serve in parliament for the University of Oxford, and also for the borough of Heytesbury, it was necessary that he should make his election, for which of those Places he would serve; and, therefore, he informed the house that he had made his election to serve for the university of Oxford.—He also acquainted the house, that he had received a letter from John Lowther, esq. who had been returned for the county of Cumberland, and also for the borough of Cockermouth; stating, that he had made his election to serve for the county of Cumberland.—He also informed the house, that he had received a letter from Sir C. Hawkins, bart. who had been returned for the boroughs of Grampound, Michael, and Penrhyn, against which latter return a petition had been presented, and then lay on the table; stating that he bad made his election to serve for the borough of Grampound.—He also informed the house, that he had received a letter from the right hon. Maurice Fitzgerald, who had
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, 5th January 1807.
[THETFORD ELECTION.]
Mr. Whitbread moved for discharging the order for taking the petition into consideration on the 27th instant, for the purpose of moving its consideration on a future day. The grounds
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Mr. Mingay
declared, that he rose under considerable trepidation and alarm. If he were to say that it was diffidence, at presenting himself to a public assembly, such a declaration from a man of his years, and of his former professional habits, would draw down ridicule; but he felt seriously distressed, when he considered that he was so personally and pointedly attacked. Until yesterday he had not the slightest idea that any member of that house would bring forward such a motion. Although it was true, that the election of Thetford was on the 4th of November, yet the fact Was, that the point now at issue had been settled five years ago, and had been ever since acquiesced in. It was not one term alone that the petitioners had had to try the law of the question, but every term since the year 1801 they might have brought it forward, if they had thought proper. The question went to nothing less than tearing to pieces the corporate rights of that borough, and dissolving the corporation. This was a petition that the house would not shew peculiar favour to; and he hoped they would not let it hang for ever over his head, as he believed the real object of the petitioners was to keep him as long in hot water as possible. It was the death of an old alderman (his brother) that occasioned this petition. There were complaints now of what a man, who was alderman, and afterwards mayor of the town, had done in 1801, 2, 3. A great part of the voters that had been made during that time were now sought to be disfranchised. There was however, no objection made to the votes made by that alderman in 1801, and yet, after so many years, the petitioners wished to disfranchise, on
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Mr. Whitbread
was not conscious of having said any thing which the hon. gent. was justified in considering as a personal attack on himself. The question was merely a legal question, whether a certain description of persons had or had not the right of voting. If they had, the hon. gent. was secure of his seat; if they had not, he would of course be removed from his seat. He could not suppose the object of the petition was by any means to harass him, or keep him, as he had expressed it, in hot water. Although it was possible that for the last 5 years, illegal votes might have been received, yet, if the flaw was not discovered until the last election, the petitioners were in sufficient time.
Mr. Mingay
again stated, that it was not one term only that they had lain by, but it was five years and one term. He was, therefore, against the motion for discharging the order.
Mr. Bragge Bathurst
considered that the house had hardly sufficient materials to decide on, having only two contradictory statements. He thought, however, that as to this flaw, which had been only discovered the other day, the courts of law would be as slow to lend themselves to the overturning corporate rights as the committees of the house of commons.
The Attorney-General
had no objection to the delay of a fortnight, which was all that was asked for in the first instance, but he could not see why the petitioners suffered all the last term to pass over without moving for a writ of quo warranto. This was all they could do in the course of the next term, and that would be very far from deciding the question.
Mr. Whitbread
observed, that the delay of a fortnight was all he asked in the first instance, and if, at the end of that period, he could not lay sufficient grounds for postponing it further, the house of course would not consent to put it off longer.
Mr. Rose
considered that it was likely, that postponing it upon the grounds that were stated, would make it necessary that it should be postponed so long, that it could not be determined in the course of the present session.
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Lord Howick
observed, that it would be extremely inconvenient that the house should that night divide upon the question: he therefore proposed the debate should be adjourned until to-morrow. This proposition was accordingly agreed to.
[NEGOCIATION WITH FRANCE.]
—Lord Howick, having moved that the Papers presented to the house on the 22d of December last (see p. 91) relating to the Negociation with France, be now taken into consideration, rose, and addressed the house as follows:—Mr. Speaker, the Papers which have been laid before the house in consequence of his majesty's gracious command for that purpose, having now been for a considerable time under consideration, it becomes my duty to offer that proposition to the house which has been usual on similar occasions; namely, a motion for an humble address to his majesty, expressive of such sentiments as the house may think fit to convey to the throne, after a careful review of the whole of this most important question. In rising to perform this duty, it is impossible for me not to experience many painful feelings: in the first place, regret, deep and lasting regret, for the failure of an effort sincerely directed to the restoration of peace to this country and to Europe, aggravated as that failure has been by the increased difficulties which the rapid succession of the most fatal events has since opposed to the restoration of peace. But, sir, connected with these feelings, peculiarly affecting to myself, is another event which it is impossible for me to pass by unnoticed, for it is impossible for me not to recollect by whom this business would have been detailed to this house, but for the dispensation of Providence. It is impossible for me to speak a word upon this occasion, either as to the effort itself, or the failure of it, without recollecting the great and irreparable loss the country has sustained in the death of that loved friend and instructor, without whose guidance and support I have no confidence in my own strength. It is impossible for me to forget what he was, and what I am. In detailing his efforts, and defending his conduct, I feel more than ever my own insufficiency for the performance of the task which he alone could adequately fulfill. If any thing can support me under such apprehensions, and upon such an occasion, it is the knowledge I have of those principles, as connected with this subject, which he held invariably until he ceased for ever
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Lord Yarmouth
apologized for offering himself to the notice of the house so early in the debate. He trusted he should be acquitted of presumption, in claiming the priority of persons much better able to direct the judgement of the house, by the candour of gentlemen on every side, who would be sensible of the propriety of his offering an elucidation of some circumstances respecting the negociation, and some respecting himself in this early stage of the debate. It was essential that he should rescue himself from some imputations cast upon him, in another place, by a noble lord high in authority, to whom he could not regularly allude. He had seen the expressions he alluded to in a very respectable newspaper early on Saturday. He could not doubt the authenticity of the report, and he wished to set himself right with the house, and to set the house right with respect to the question in the points to which he meant particularly to advert. He thought he could prove to the house, that the reflections cast upon him were unfounded. He hoped it would not be taking up too much of the time of the house if he should, in his view of the subject under debate, go back to the causes of the present war. Considering the assigned grounds for the renewal of the war, he was of opinion, that at the beginning of this year there was strong reason for entering into negociations for peace. One great cause of the war was the impossibility of obtaining a sufficient guarantee for the security of Malta. An official statement in the Moniteur declared, long after the commencement of the war, that so long as England retained Malta, Buonaparte would not relinquish the sovereignty of the kingdom of Italy. Malta, however, was not the only cause of the war: the desire to resist the aggrandisement of France was another cause. Russia was as averse as we to the overbearing power and character of France. But Russia was unwilling to engage in the enterprise of reducing France, till Great Britain, which had little danger to
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Lord Howick
thought he had stated, as distinctly as possible, that the noble lord had had no instructions to insist on a written acknowledgement of the basis in the first instance. As the noble lord stated, he was sent to carry a verbal answer to a Verbal proposition, He was instructed to obtain in this way an acknowledgement of the basis, and directed not to use his full powers till the French government should return to the basis on which it had set out. It was not a written but an actual acknowledgement that the noble lord had been instructed to claim, previous to the production of his full powers; and as soon as he should have produced his powers, he was directed to seek, in his first subsequent note, a written acknowledgement. Mr. Fox's letter went back to the original offer of the
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Mr. Montague
regretted, that in the whole of this business he saw the complete success of the machinations of France. The French policy put him in mind of the policy of the ancient Turks, which was, to make short truces to secure conquests, and short wars to enlarge them. Considering the case on this principle, we might find that the French had procured the benefit of a truce, and used it to blind our government. The origin of the negociation was owing to the death of that great statesman, Mr. Pitt, the pilot who had weathered so many storms. He thought he saw that illustrious statesman contending with the demon who endeavoured to entice him, as Somnus did the pilot Palinurus of old. He thought he heard the demon address him in the words used to Palinurus:—
Iaside Palinure, ferunt ipsa æquora classem; Æquatæ spirant auræ; datur hora quieti. Pone caput, fessÓsque oculos furare labori.
Méne salis placidi vultum fluctúsque quietos Ignorare jubes? Méne huic confidere Monstro?
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Sir Thomas Turton
rose and delivered his maiden speech. He said, he did not think he should satisfactorily discharge his duty to his constituents, to that house, or to himself, if he did not candidly avow his sentiments, upon the present most important question, and state as candidly the reasons upon which he grounded those sentiments, and which should alone influence his vote this night. He said, that in his view of the conduct of our ambassadors, the story of their proceedings might be summed up in a very concise way—that they were in this country when they should have been in France, and that they remained in France long after that period at which they should have dated their departure. He was anxious to assure the house, that the grounds upon which his sentiments of the general conduct of ministers during the late negociation were rested, were deduced solely from the papers now before the house; and the observations he had to offer to the house upon those papers he should divide under three distinct heads; first, from the commencement of the negociation to the time of lord Yarmouth's arrival. The second period to which he should call the attention of the house was from the arrival of lord Yarmouth in this country, to the refusal of the court of St. Petersburgh to ratify the treaty of M. d'Oubril; and 3dly, from that period to the rupture of the late negociation. As to the first, he would in general observe, that the first question that would naturally suggest itself in the opening of any treaty for peace between the belligerent powers would be, what further advantages were to be expected by either party in the continuation of hostilities—such treaties should be conducted by a policy conceded to by all nations, and indeed in itself justifiable, the contracting parties concluding upon terms mutually and respectively advantageous. In this point of view, he could not be brought to think that the conduct of our ministers in managing that treaty was marked with that jealousy and caution which were so necessary in any communication with a cabinet so proverbial for diplomatic intrigue as that of the enemy; at the same time he was willing to confess that if there was a man in the empire peculiarly fitted for negociation with any continental power, more especially for conducting a treaty with France the great and illustrious statesman whose
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"Non omnis moriar, Multaque pars mei vitabit ruinam."
cacoethes scribendi
Mr. Whitbread
rose, and spoke nearly as follows:—Mr. Speaker; it was my wish to have spoken immediately after the hon. gent. (Mr. Montague) who preceded the hon. bart. (Sir T. Turton), for the purpose of offering a few observations upon a speech abounding with classical quotations, and full of fanciful illustration; but which, I confess, appears to me not to have contained the sort of reasoning likely to produce conviction upon the members of this house; far less to convey sentiments agreeable to the friends of either of those illustrious men, whose loss we severally and deeply deplore. The hon. gent. has informed us, that having twenty years since taken his seat in the house of commons, he has been absent from it for the last ten: but, sir, one would have thought it impossible, that he should not have heard of the political transactions which have taken place within that period; that he should not have known that the animosities and contentions of which he was witness, had long since ceased; that the dissentions which he has endeavoured to revive are obsolete; and that at a most critical period of the affairs of this country, one of those great rivals represented to his sovereign, however unsuccessfully, that the other was
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Sicily is the sine quâ non
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an unusual and unexplained delay
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yes
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your
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place yourself in the situation of France at the time you treated
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moderate in the extreme
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end
Mr. Canning rose, and said
:—I cannot think, sir, that I need offer any apology to the house for having deferred till the very last moment obtruding myself upon your attention. It was not until the last question now in your hand, was about to be put and decided, that I could believe it to be the determination of his majesty's ministers to suffer such a speech as we have just heard from the hon. gent. opposite (Mr Whitbread) to remain unanswered; to suffer their own conduct in a transaction so momentous as that which we are this night considering, to go forth to the world under the imputations of their enemies abroad, and the inculpation of their friends at home, without an attempt to set themselves right
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nous ne vous la demandons pas
Nous ne vous demandons rien
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nous ne vous la demandons pas
nous ne vous demandons rien
nous ne vous demandons rien
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conquests
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sine quâ non
Vous l'avez; nous ne vous demandons rien
nous ne vous la demandons pas
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uti possidetis
from
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status ante bellum
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status ante bellum
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exceptio probat regulam
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that
status ante bellum
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nous ne vous demandons rien
l'empereur n'a rien àdésirer de ce que possède l'Angleterre
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à discuter les bases
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sine quâ non
understood
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Lord Henry Petty
said, that after the excellent speech of his noble friend (lord Howick) which remained in almost every part unanswered, he did not think it necessary to detain the house by many observations. He certainly thought there had been no cause for the surprise expressed by the right hon. gent. who spoke last, at the silence of the side of the house on which he sat, after hearing the speech of his hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread). By this silence they had the opportunity of availing themselves of the answer of the right hon. gent. to the opinion of one who thought the French had been sincere in every part of the negociation; they had the advantage of seeing opposed the opinion of another, who considered the French to have been insincere throughout the whole. One who maintained the
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vous l'avez, nous ne vous la demandons pas
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Mr. Perceval
asked, whether it was intended to report this address to-morrow, as in that case he would not trouble the house at the late hour to which the debate had been protracted, but would state what he had to say, on bringing up the report.
Lord Howick
thought it an unusual course of proceeding, to adjourn a debate upon the subject of an address where the house was unanimous as to the general object of that address. He had no wish to prevent the learned gent. from addressing the house, and however long his speech might be, he assured him he would listen to it with patience.
Mr. Pèrceval
took a review of all the circumstances connected with the negociation, from which he drew these conclusions; that the enemy were never seriously desirous of peace, and that ministers were the dupes of the artifice of the French government. The object of the enemy for engaging in the negociation was to play off England against Russia, and to compel
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Lord Howick
made a very animated reply, and we are sorry that the hour at which he rose precludes us from following him in detail. He noticed with much animation whad had fallen from the last speaker on the subject of Mr. Fox's correspondence. Language had been used, he observed, which would have been unbecoming in one member towards another sitting on the bench opposite to him, and yet all the scoff's, taunts, and insinuations which had been employed were directed against one who was now no more, and whose answer the learned gent. knew he had no reason to dread. He had commented with much asperity on an attachment which he supposed had been formed between Mr. Fox and M. Talleyrand. Where did he learn that any such attachment ever existed? He could assure the hon. and learned gent. that no intimate friendship subsisted between M. Talleyrand and Mr. Fox. All the relation in which they stood with respect to each other was that of common acquaintance, and they had no intimacy but that which had arisen in social intercourse. An extract only of one letter, which passed between them, had been given, because the remainder was of a private nature. But was the learned gent. warranted on that account in supposing the remainder of the letter contained something improper? He could assure him that there was no part of the correspondence of which his majesty's ministers were ignorant. Nay, he could further assure him, that every line written by Mr. Fox to M. Talleyrand was seen by the king. The noble lord then replied to some of the arguments used by Mr. Canning, and Mr. Whitbread. The hon. gent. he observed, blamed his majesty's ministers for having done too much in the way of negociation, while his hon. friend and relation blamed them for doing too little; but he thought it was not a little in their favour, that they had steered a middle course between the two extremes. The pamphlet which had been alluded to, shewed from the total ignorance with which it was written, that it could come from no official authority, as insinuated. As to the prosecution hinted
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Mr. Perceval
said, that with respect to the word "attached," he had taken it from the Correspondence: if the noble lord would refer to No. I. of the Papers, (see p. 93.) he would there find that Mr. Fox, in addressing M. Talleyrand, had subscribed himself "with the most perfect attachment." — The address was then put and carried, and the house adjourned at five o'clock on Tuesday morning.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday,January 6 1807
[MINUTES.]
The deputy usher of the black rod required the attendance of the house at the bar of the house of peers, where the royal assent was given by commission to the Controverted Elections Trial bill.—The speaker informed the house, that he had received a letter from Mr. Bouchier, deputy clerk of the crown in Ireland, stating, that he had received petitions complaining of undue elections in Dublin, Newry, and Mayo county.—It was ordered, that these petitions be taken into consideration the same days as the
418
[THETFORD ELECTION.]
The order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate on the question of granting a further day for the hearing of the Thetford Election Petition, being read,
Mr. Whitbread rose
and said, that he was the more confident in soliciting, on behalf of the petitioner, a more distant day than had been already fixed upon, when he considered that it was an indulgence generally granted by that house, and which the sitting member was seldom unwilling to accede to. From what had fallen from an hon. member (Mr. Mingay) in the beginning of this discussion, he believed that that gentleman was under a mistake in supposing that there was but one unqualified voter only objected to among those of the corporation who composed that gentleman's majority; but he was instructed to state that there were three, four, or more persons admitted to vote for the sitting member who were not electors, whose pretence to the right of suffrage was founded upon an illegal claim; and though an undisputed possession of franchise for a limited time made that right of suffrage valid, yet that time not being yet expired, the objections had been made within the period prescribed by law, and of course, no argument in favour of those votes could be drawn from the fact of possession. The sitting member had said, that the court of king's bench, if applied to for a
quo warranto
Mr. Mingay
contended that the question then before the house was not whether the king's bench would receive or reject any
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Mr. Tierney
said, that he ought not to be anxious to speak on a question apparently agitating the feelings of two gentlemen, for each of whom he felt so much respect. He should, however, remove all such personal considerations from his mind, and consider merely the simple fact of a petitioner asking for a more distant day than that already fixed upon for hearing his petition; though in the case of petitions the granting a further day was by no means an unusual indulgence, yet he was, upon the general principle, an enemy to delay in such cases. But he thought the present case sufficiently exempted from the general rule by its peculiar circumstances, the petitioner desires a further day as indispensable to the object of his petition—the sitting member, on the other hand, does not shew that any possible inconvenience can arise to him from this delay. It was objected, too, that the petitioner did not make an earlier application to the king's bench. The election took place on the 4th of November, and the day next but one was the first day of term, and yet it was asked why the petitioner did not prepare all the necessaries for an application to a court of law between the 4th and 6th
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The Attorney-General
conceived that the house was now about to exercise a judicial function, and that it should pause before it would rashly go to establish a precedent. The hon. gent. who spoke last had said, that it was hard to expect that the process of an application for a quo warranto could have been made within the first day of term; but the hon. gent. should recollect, that though term did not commence till the 6th, it did not end till the 28th, and that it was rather suspicious that in all that time no step had been taken by the petitioner to make such application. As to the argument, that delay was not alleged to be an inconvenience to the sitting member, he did not think it conclusive, nor should he think it fair to be compelled to prove his title to his estate, merely because that proof was entirely practicable. He should therefore vote against the motion
Mr. C. Wynne
thought, that however it might be a question whether such delay was inconvenient to the sitting member, he was sure that it was inconvenient to that house and to the public
The Solicitor-General
did not think that the house could reject the motion, consistently with justice—it had come within his knowledge that of three of the persons objected to, one only was opposed at the time of tendering his vote, and that a mouth had elapsed since the election before the petitioner was apprized of the illegality of the other two votes. He hoped that this strong circumstance would have its due weight with the house
Mr. Roscoe
thought, under such circumstances, that the party must apply to the court of king's bench, and therefore it must be supposed, that the house would give them time to do this. The attorney-general had said, that this could not be done in so short a time as that sought for by the petitioner; it therefore necessarily followed, that the decision of the question must extend beyond the time limited; and as it was very possible, that persons presenting such petitions might not quite understand the law as well as other gentlemen, it appeared to him that time should be granted to the petitioner
Mr. Bragge Bathurst
was of opinion,
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Mr. Johnstone
thought, that the petitioner had deprived himself of the benefit of such an application by his own act. In his anxiety to present his petition, it was lodged three or four days earlier than was necessary, and consequently, an early day was appointed for taking it into consideration. Upon these and other grounds already stated, he therefore thought the petitioner was not entitled to the indulgence of the house.—The question being loudly called for, a division took place; when there appeared for the motion, 35; against it, 54; majority against the motion, 19
[Dublin Election Petition.]
The order of the day for postponing the consideration of the Dublin Election petition, being read,
Mr. C. Wynne
was of opinion, that upon such a subject as this, very sufficient reasons should be given, before the house would consent to any delay, which might tend to interfere with other more important public business
Mr. Calcraft
answered, that since the day fixed for the consideration of the petition in question, another petition had been presented against Mr. Grattan, of which he had not the least notice. In a city like Dublin, where there were upwards of 5000 voters, it was necessary to scrutinize a great many, and therefore it was important that sufficient time should be granted for this purpose. He further observed, that having received the petition in question, he inadvertently presented it before he had received any particular instructions upon it. He had since received a letter from Mr. La Touche, in Which he explained these circumstances. He, therefore, trusted the house would grant a longer time for the consideration of this matter
422
Mr. C. Wynne
expressed himself perfectly satisfied with the explanation of the hon. gent. and Mr. Shaw declared his approbation and consent to the application. —The petition was accordingly postponed until the 12th of March
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday,7th January 1807.
[Minutes]
Mr. Hobhouse from the commons brought up the Malt Duty, and the Pension Duty bills, which were read a first time.—The Duke of Norfolk rose to advert to a Petition which had been laid on their lordships' table, from the claimants to the Barony of Howard de Walden. That petition was upon motion referred to the Committee of Privilege: but it was his wish that the day for taking it into consideration be extended. He therefore now gave notice that he should to-morrow move, that the said petition be referred to the Committee of Privileges, on the 10th of February next.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday,7th January 1807.
[MINUTES.]
The Malt and Pension Duty bills were read a third time, and passed.—The Speaker informed the House, that as the Horsham Election petition was to be taken into consideration to-morrow, he would come down to the house at halfpast three, and proceed to count the house at a quarter-past four precisely.—Mr. Vansittart brought in a bill for granting to his majesty 10,500,000
l
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[ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Calcraft moved, that the Estimate of the charge of the office of ordnance for Great Britain and Ireland, for the year 1807, be referred to the said committee.
Mr. Calcraft
then rose. He said, that, on moving the Ordnance Estimates, he felt much satisfaction, that it would not be necessary for him to detain the committee by observations of any length; that if, however, there were any topics that required further explanation, or any questions that gentlemen might deem it necessary to propose to him, he should willingly answer such questions, and, if he could, adequately. He had an additional satisfaction in being enabled to inform the committee that there was a considerable reduction in the Estimates he had now to submit to them, compared with those of last year: he did not mean, in stating this, to claim any extraordinary acknowledgement of merit as due to the present Board of Ordnance; he rather thought that the present reduction might more justly be imputed to the adequate supplies of former years, which, in facilitating the progress of the public works, had lessened the grants of money necessary to support them. If the Board of Ordnance had any claim to merit, it was for the uniform zeal with which the Board resisted all the projects of expenditure that had been submitted to them, and consulted upon all occasions the most practical economy. The principal reductions were owing to the completion of those great works in Kent, and upon the coast of Sussex, which, while erecting, were productive of an expence of no inconsiderable magnitude. The sum now required would be found to be 600,000
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HOUSE OF COMMONS
Thursday, January 8.
[MINUTES.]
At four o'clock the Speaker counted the house, when above 100 members being present, the house proceeded to ballot for a committee to decide on the double return from Horsham. Forty members having been balloted, a minor committee was appointed, and retired into one of the committee chambers for the purpose of reducing the committee of forty to fifteen. Some time after, Mr.
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[ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.]
Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee of supply on the Ordnance Estimate.—The first resolution being put,
Mr. Johnstone
observed, that there were two charges which appeared to him to require some explanation. Among the stores sent to Ceylon, amounting to 59,400
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Mr. Calcraft
replied to the first observation of the hon. gent. that all stores furnished for foreign service were done so under an order from the secretary of state's office; but that not having that order then about him, he was unable to produce it. As to the difference between the charge of worms and turn-screws, &c. for England and for Ireland, he rather supposed, that a part of the charge for the former country was included in the sums provided for in the other resolutions. But he would make enquiry into this subject, and would be happy to give the hon. gent. every information in his power.
Mr. Johnstone
not only thought, that sending powder from this island to Ceylon was an oversight, but that the whole sum voted for the Ordnance Service of Ceylon, was too large to pass without animadversion. With regard to the other sums, he supposed that they were not correctly particularized in the resolution; for it was impossible they could form a part of the sums provided for in the other resolutions, as
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Mr. Calcraft
repeated, that he would make himself master of this subject, and endeavour to account to the hon. gent. for that which now appeared to him to be so extraordinary. The resolutions were then agreed to.
[MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS.]
Lord
Castlereagh
Mr. Secretary Windham
replied, that he did not know that any other measure was in contemplation; that it was probable the operation of the Training act might be extended to Scotland; and that he had no doubt in that case the people of that country would cheerfully support their share of the burthen.
Lord Castlereagh
fancied that he had not made himself perfectly understood by the right hon. gent. His question did not relate to the suspension, or to the execution of the Training act in Scotland. What he asked was, whether or not it was intended to carry it into execution in this country?
Mr. Windham
observed, that it was at this moment in a course of execution in this country: to what extent, must be subject to the discretion of the executive government, who would, in this case, be guided by circumstances. As far as taking the names, and balloting from the lists, the measure would be put into complete activity.
Lord Castlereagh
again enquired, whether it was meant to carry the measure into execution in a military sense, or merely to confine it to the obtaining of names and a consequent ballot. Did his majesty's ministers intend that the Training should take place?
Mr. Windham
repeated, that the extent
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, January 9.
[MALT DUTY BILL.]
The order for committing the Malt Duty bill, which also purported to be a bill for removing doubts respecting the issue of certain Exchequer bills, and for other purposes, having been read,
The
Lord Chancellor
left the woolsack, to call the attention of the house to this bill, which appeared to contain matter foreign to the object of a money bill. His lordship moved that the standing order respecting bills of this description should be read. The standing order was accordingly read by the clerk, declaring, that to insert in money bills, clauses foreign to the objects of those bills, was unparliamentary, and destructive of the constitution of parliament.—The noble and learned lord said it would be wasting the time of their lordships for him to attempt to prove, what must be obvious to the house, that clauses were inserted in this bill, which had no relation to its object as a money bill, and which therefore rendered it obnoxious to the standing order of the house which had just been read. He therefore moved that the bill be rejected, which was ordered accordingly,
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, January 9.
[MINUTES.]
Sir J. Newport, took the oaths and his seat. The hon. baronet, upon taking his seat, informed the house that having been returned for Waterford and also for St. Mawes, he made his election for the city of Waterford.—A new writ was ordered to be issued, to elect a member for the county of Sussex, in the room of general Lenox, who was called to the upper house, as succeeding to the title and honours of the dukedom of Richmond.—Mr. Dickenson informed the house, that being chosen to serve in Parliament for the borough of Lestwethiel and the county of Somerset, he made his election for the latter place.—Sir J. Newport gave
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[BATTLE OF MAIDA ]
Mr. Wilder, seeing the right hon. secretary for the war department in his place, wished to be informed by him, why the name of colonel, now general Oswald, had been omitted in the vote of thanks for the glorious victory of Maida, to the achievement of which his conduct and gallantry had materially contributed.
Mr. Secretary
Windham
said, it had been his wish, in framing the vote of thanks, to go as far as any former precedent would warrant him in mentioning the officers concerned, by name. No officer of a lower rank than major-general was mentioned by name in any former vote of thanks. But, as the rank of brigadier-general had been recently introduced into our service, he thought we might with propriety extend the compliment to that also. Colonel Oswald was not at the time actually a brigadier-general, though acting in that rank with great credit to himself, and great benefit to the service. The circumstances he mentioned were the only causes of the omission, and he hoped this explanation, which he was happy to have the opportunity of making, would prove perfectly satisfactory to the feelings of the hon. gent. behind him, and of every friend of that gallant and meritorious officer.
Mr. Wilder
said, he was perfectly satisfied with the explanation given by the right hon. secretary.
[ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.]
Mr. Calcraft, seeing an hon. gent. in his place (Mr. Johnstone), said he should take that opportunity of giving the hon. gent. every satisfactory explanation as to the questions which the hon. gent. had thought it necessary to put to him yesterday, with respect to the item for powder in the charges for the island of Ceylon. The hon, gent. asked, why the necessary supply of gunpowder had not been furnished by some of our settlements in the East Indies: to that question the best answer would be the simple statement of the fact, that the governor of that island had required a supply of English gunpowder, in preference to that of our Eastern settlements, owing to the superior quality of the former; and this too, not so much from the comparative excellence of our gunpowder, as the positive inferiority of that formerly supplied by the settlements. As to the apparent disproportion in the charges of 1000
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Mr. Johnstone
felt much obliged by the great anxiety the hon. gent. had evinced to give him and the house every satisfaction relative to the questions he took the liberty of putting to him yesterday. It was, however, very natural for him to suppose that in that country, where the material of which the gunpowder was made was to be had, it could be furnished at a cheaper rate than it could be contracted for in England. As to the requisition forwarded by the governor of Ceylon, he did not think that the responsibility to that house rested upon the governor, but upon the ministers, who were bound to judge of the propriety of acceding to it. This, too, he felt it necessary to add, that he had the fullest reliance in the capability of the governor of Ceylon, and thought that that gentleman had given proofs of a strict economy.
Mr. Calcraft
said, that he had only to repeat that English gunpowder had been sent out to the Island of Ceylon, upon the positive orders of the governor, founded upon reasons already specified, that appeared to the government convincing.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, January 10.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Hobhouse presented a petition from the provost, &c. of the city of Edinburgh, praying for leave to
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, January 12.
[ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE.]
On the motion of lord Grenville, the second reading of the bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade was appointed for Friday se'nnight, for which day the lords were ordered to be summoned.
Lord Hawkesbury
adverted to the two resolutions adopted by the house last session; the one declaring that the Slave Trade ought to be abolished; and the other, to address his majesty to make such communications to Foreign powers as his majesty should deem advisable, with the view of procuring the Abolition of the Slave Trade. With respect to the second of these resolutions, he thought the house ought to be informed of what had been done in pursuance of it, or whether any thing had been done. This information he conceived not only those noble lords who were hostile to the abolition, but also those who were friendly to that measure, would wish to have. There were five powers who were materially interested in the Slave Trade, namely, Portugal and the United States of America, France, Spain, and Holland; Denmark and Sweden had also some interest in the trade, but it was of a subordinate nature. With respect to Spain and Holland, he could readily conceive that there had been no means of making any communication on the subject to these powers. As to France, he did not know whether, during the late negociation with the government of that country, there was any communication upon this subject made, and this was a point upon which he thought the house ought to be informed. So also with respect to the United States of America, and Portugal, communications
432
Lord Grenville
said, he was not aware of any material objection to the noble lord's motion. With respect to France, the fact was, that during the late negociation with the government of that country, communications on this subject did take place, to the production of which he saw no objection. As to Spain and Holland, the noble lord had justly supposed that no communications had taken place. With respect to Portugal, it was not thought expedient to make any communication on the subject during the negociation with France; and the fact was that none had since been made. With respect to the United States of America, communications had certainly passed during the negociation between the plenipotentiaríes of this country and the United States; and this subject actually formed one of the articles of the treaty which had been signed by those plenipotentiaries. The only difficulty he had in acceding to the noble lord's motion was, that this article could not be produced, as it was well known that a treaty signed by plenipotentiaries could not regularly be laid before parliament until ratified by the respective governments.—The motion was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, January 12.
[CHARGES AGAINST MR. CAWTHORNE.]
General
Porter
Mr. Cawthorne
expressed his wish that the hon. general would make up his mind and determine filially on the time when he was to bring forward his motion. The house would be aware how disagreeable must be the state of suspence in which he
433
General Porter
said, that his only object in proposing the delay was, in order to insure a full attendance, which he deemed highly desirable upon this occasion, and which could not be looked for if the discussions were to occur while the quarter-sessions were pending.
Mr. Cawthorne
declared that he was as anxious as any man, that the discussion of the case alluded to should have as full an attendance as possible; for without any reference to himself, he thought it involved a question of very great moment. Putting entirely out of view the consideration of holding any member of that house, or any persons whatever whose character was implicated, one moment more than was indispensably necessary in a state of suspence, he submitted to the candour and judgement of the house, whether there was not something in the course of this proceeding which justified complaint. The hon. gent. gave notice of this proceeding, in the first instance, in a way certainly very unusual, at a time when the members were very little likely to have any knowledge of it, namely, after the debate had closed on Tuesday morning, and after almost all the members had retired. Not a word of it appeared in the morning papers, in which accounts of the proceedings of that house generally appeared: and if it were not for some gentlemen who happened to perceive the insertion of this notice in the book upon the table, the thing would have been very little known indeed.
General Porter
repeated the grounds which induced him to postpone his motion; adding, that he would certainly bring forward the motion upon Wednesday se'nnight.
[CONDUCT OF LORD WELLESLEY.]
Lord Folkestone gave notice of his intention to move, on that day fortnight, for the re-printing of certain papers which had been printed last session, relative to the Oude charge exhibited against marquis Wellesley.
Lord Howick
expressed a wish to know from the noble lord, with what view he proposed to bring forward the motion of which he had given notice, and what was the nature of the measure he meant to found upon the papers to which his notice referred?
434
Lord Folkestone
replied, that his motion would refer to the re-printing of the several papers connected with the Oude charge; namely, numbers 3, 4, and 5. With respect to any subsequent proceeding, he believed that none was likely to be taken for some time. The house was aware that the hon. gent. (Mr. Paull) with whom this business originated was now a petitioner, and until that petition was decided, it was not intended to ground any measure upon the papers to which this notice related. But yet, to prevent any delay hereafter, it was thought expedient that those documents should be fully before the house, in order that, if the hon. gent. already alluded to should be in a situation to prosecute this important enquiry, he might be enabled to proceed at once, unimpeded by the procrastination which the printing of papers upon this subject had so often produced in the course of the last parliament; and in order also that if Mr. Paull should not be in a situation to follow up this business, he himself (lord Folkestone), or some more competent person, might be furnished with the means of proceeding upon it. The noble lord concluded with expressing a belief that he had fully replied to the enquiry of the noble secretary of state, and expressed a readiness to afford any further information in his power upon the subject.
Lord Howick
apprehended that the reasons stated by the noble lord could not be considered a sufficient parliamentary ground for the proposition he professed to have in view. It did indeed appear to him quite without precedent to make a motion for the production and printing of certain papers upon which the mover did not state that any direct proceeding was to be instituted, but merely upon the chance that another gentleman not a member of that house, might ground some proceeding upon them. This, however, he felt was not the proper time to argue the question; but he could not help observing, that the course proposed must be attended with extreme hardship to the party concerned in the case to which the notice referred. For that house was to be called on to promote the circulation of the most severe attacks upon the character of the noble person a1luded to. The effects of such publications were easily to be estimated, and he would submit whether they could he in fairness acceded to, without any precise statement that a parliamentary measure would be founded upon them, or without any defi
435
Lord Folkestone
was aware that this was not the proper time for any argument upon the subject; but he would, with the leave of the house, make a further reply to the noble secretary of state. The object of the motion of which he had given notice, could not be fairly supposed to involve any harshness towards lord Wellesley, as the noble secretary of state stated, any farther than as it professed to assist and facilitate the enquiry respecting that noble lord's conduct. But the noble secretary of state seemed to imagine, that there was some probability the enquiry might be relinquished, and that therefore the documents his motion would relate to, might not be necessary. Of this, however, he could assure the noble secretary, that the enquiry would certainly be persisted in; for if no other person should offer, he pledged himself, if a member of parliament, to follow it up. The papers he had described were, the noble lord observed, laid before the house last session, and therefore there could be no just objection to their being re printed, particularly as the enquiry would be proceeded in. Indeed, if the hon. gent. who originally brought it forward should not be enabled from his presence in that house to prosecute it, he would, rather than let it drop, take it up himself. Those papers would not, therefore, be suffered to lie dormant on the table. It was for no such purpose that he intended to move for them. They were, indeed, already in the hands of the greater part of the members, and in general circulation; but in order to satisfy the forms of the house, it was necessary to have them again laid on the table, and re-printed, before any parliamentary proceeding could be founded upon them. Whether his motion for this purpose should be agreed to or not, he could not guess. He did not indeed anticipate the opposition manifested by the noble secretary. But whether that opposition should be persisted in or not, whatever the fate of his motion might be, that motion would certainly be made, and the enquiry to which it related as certainly prosecuted.
[OAK BARK BILL.]
Lord Folkestone
pre-
436
Lord Temple
stated, that he had, upon the subject of this petition, taken occasion to communicate, as his duty presented to him, with the tanners of London, among whom he found some considerable alarm prevailed, relative to the bill before the house. But the result of this communication served fully to convince his mind, that that alarm was not well founded. Such indeed was his opinion, even before the conference took place. But still he felt it not only his duty, but his inclination, to consult any class of men interested in a question of this nature; to consider their opinions, to examine their objections, and even to pay attention to their prejudices. He would therefore propose to allow full time for enquiring farther upon this subject, in order that the grounds upon which the petitioners rested their objections to the bill before the house might be amply investigated. For that purpose he would move, that the second reading of the bill should be postponed till this day fortnight. In the interim the case might be diligently examined; and as the Oak Bark trade was suspended, at least until May, no injury could result from the proposed delay, to those concerned for the carrying of the bill.—The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and lord Temple's motion for the second reading of the bill on this day fortnight was agreed to.
[IRISH ELECTION BILL.]
Sir John Newport rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for amending the act of the 42d of his present majesty, for regulating the trial of contested elections in Ireland. The right hon. baronet observed, that there were several provisions in this act which he proposed to alter, and which were of such a nature as the house must feel admitted of no delay that could be consistently avoided in passing the bill which he had felt it his duty to bring forward. There were some points in the act he proposed to amend, which he thought it right to mention to the house, as proofs of the necessity that existed for such amendment. In the act referred to, there was a provision for swearing the commissioners appointed in Ireland to examine evidence, &c upon the subject of election petitions; but strange as it might seem, there was no provision for swearing the clerks who acted
437
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l
d
d
438
[MILITARY ESTABLISHMENTS OF THE COUNTRY.]
Lord Castlereagh, in pursuance of the notice which he had given on a former day, rose to submit his motions to the house. It was a satisfaction to him to find that no objection was likely to be made to the production of any of the returns for which he proposed to move. It would unquestionably be more satisfactory to the house, that no argument should be produced upon the subject to which his motions referred, until the documents he was to call for should be before the house. It was, therefore, not his intention to submit any reasoning to the house upon the question in the present stage. He should confine himself to a short statement of the points upon which he desired information, and to which his several motions would go. The first point upon which he thought it necessary to call for information, was the actual state of the army, regulars, and militia. His first motion, therefore, would be for a return of the present actual effective strength of the regular army, the militia, and the artillery, up to the latest period when returns had been made, and at the end of every month from the first of March l806, inclusive. By this return the house would be enabled to judge how far the army had undergone any increase or diminution of its effective strength within that period. The next point upon which he proposed to move for information, was with respect to the sources, from which the supply for keeping up the strength of the army, was derived. By this return the house would be able to form some
439
440
Mr. Secretary Windham,
though he felt that no information was too much, that could be supplied to the house on this subject, was yet of opinion that there might be many points which it would not be de-
441
Lord Castlereagh
concurred in the wisdom of the observation of the right hon. gent. that it mould not be proper to produce any documents which might give any dangerous information to the enemy. But from the manner in which this subject had been brought before parliament for the last three or four years, he thought the information he called for, necessary to the house. He had remembered, indeed, one instance, in which not only the number but the distribution of the British forces had been produced on motion. The enemy, however, could have the same information from publications countenanced in this country. He had moved only tor the gross amount of the British army, abroad and at home, and not its distribution; and this information was necessary to the house, in
442
Mr. Secretary Windham
admitted that the observations of the noble lord had, in a great measure, obviated his objection. He had still, however, a difficulty in stating the amount of black troops, which were exclusively employed in the West Indies. But as they were not the only corps employed, the objection did not appear to him material, and he should, therefore, not press it.
Lord Castlereagh
consented to have the black West-India regiments thrown into the gross amount of the foreign local corps.—The motion was then agreed to, as were the second, third, fourth, and fifth, without any particular or material observation.—On the question being put upon the last,
Mr. Secretary Windham
begged leave to say a few words on that occasion, which appeared to be called for, by some observations that had fallen from the noble lord in allusion to the measure to which this motion referred. The noble lord, from his experience of the additional force act, and every other gentleman, who was acquainted with the execution of such, must be aware that they embraced a great deal of civil detail, which it was impossible to precipitate. The militia lists had been used in preference to those originally pointed out by the bill. That part of the process had not been gone through, and until it had, it would have been impossible to accelerate the operation of the measure by the authority of office. All that had been foreseen by the framers of the measure, as well as that it was incapable of being executed last summer. If even there had been a necessity to put it in execution, it could not have been ready for such execution before the Spring. In the present state of the world and of the sea-
443
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, 13th Januvary 1807.
[Minutes.]
On the motion of sir F. Vane, the order for taking into consideration on Tuesday, the 20th instant, the Petition complaining of an undue return for the Borough of Tregony was discharged, and a new order made for Tuesday, the 27th inst. —The order of the day having been read for the house going into a committee on the Malt Duty bill, it was ordered, on the motion of Mr. Vansittart, that it be an instruction to the said committee to receive a clause of credit, and a clause to make good certain deficiencies. The bill then passed through a committee, in which these clauses were introduced and agreed to.
[Conduct Of Lord Wellesley.]
Mr.
Wellesley Pole
444
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, January 14.
[MINUTES.]
Sir J. Newport brought up a bill, to amend the Act of the 42d of his present majesty, for regulating the trials of Controverted Elections, or returns of members to serve in parliament for Ireland; which was read a first time.—The Secretary at War presented the Army Estimates for the present year, and a copy of the warrant for fixing certain allowances and pensions, in pursuance of the Act 46 Geo. III. These papers were ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. He then gave notice, that, on Friday se'nnight, he would move those estimates in the committee of Supply. Mr. Perceval wished to know whether the papers moved for on a former night, by a noble lord, not now present (Castlereagh,) with a view to the elucidation of the state of our Military Establishments would be ready before that day. The Secretary at War conceived the papers now presented, might in a great measure afford the information the noble lord wished for.
[AMERICAN TREATY.]
General Gascoyne rose, and observed, that he thought it his duty to ask the noble lord opposite (Howick) a question, if the house would so far indulge him. It was of the last importance to the commerce and manufactures of the country in general, and in particular to that town which he represented, that some explanation should be given of the situation in which we stood with respect to America. It was necessary to give publicity to the question and the answer, otherwise he would have been satisfied with a private explanation. A letter had appeared in the public papers, with his lordship's name to it, from which it appeared that a Treaty of Amity, Navigation, and Commerce, had been signed between this country and America, by commissioners respectively authorized by both governments. The noble lord had left it very
445
Lord Howick
would be glad to be able to answer any question which was stated to be of importance to the commercial and manufacturing interests of the country. How far the hon, general might think explanation necessary, he did know, but the house would immediately see that his question, if he rightly understood it, was one which he could not possibly answer. The hon. general had said, that a considerable impression had been created among the commercial and manufacturing interests of the nation by the note which be had written. How any impression should have been conveyed by that beyond the simple fact, he was at a loss to conceive, He had merely stated the simple fact, that a Treaty of a certain description had been signed by the respective commissioners. What was to follow upon that, he could not take upon him to say. It would be improper at present to go any farther than the bare fact. He had stated, that there was such a treaty, leaving it to others to draw such a conclusion as they should see fit. In this, however, as in all treaties, the most obvious inference would be, that since it was signed by persons duly authorised, it would in due time be ratified. If there was such a treaty, and the inference was that it would be ratified, it might naturally be concluded that the pro-
446
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, January 15.
[MINUTES.]
On taking the chair, the speaker acquainted the house, that he had received a letter from the right hon. W. Wickham, which stated, that having been returned for the borough of Midhurst, and the borough of Callington, he had made his election to serve for the borough of Callington. It also stated, that illness was the cause of his not having made this intimation within the time specified in the orders of the house.—A new writ was ordered for the borough of Blechingley, in the room of J. Dupre Porcher, esq. who, since his election, had accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.—The Malt Duty bill was read a third time, and passed.—Mr. Vansittart presented the Barrack Estimates and gave notice, that on Wednesday next he would move them in the committee of supply.—A message from the lords announced their lordships' assent to the Exchequer Bills bill.—Mr. Perceval gave notice, that he would to-morrow move for an humble address to be presented to his majesty, praying that he would be graciously pleased to cause a copy of the order of council of the 7th of January relative to Neutrals, to be laid on the table of the
447
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, January 17.
[MINUTES.]
The deputy usher of the black rod appeared, and required the immediate attendance of the house, in the house of peers, to hear a commission read. The speaker and several members, accordingly attended. On their return, the speaker informed the house, that the lords, au
448
449
450
[CHARGES AGAINST MR. CAWTHORNE.]
Lord
Howick,
General Porter
however anxious that the subject alluded to should be brought before the house, yet, under the circumstances mentioned by the noble lord, had no objection to postpone his motion from Wednesday to Friday.
451
Mr. Cawtkorne
appealed to the justice of the house against any further protraction on this subject. He certainly felt the importance of the discussion to which the noble lord alluded, but he also felt the importance of the discussion in which he was so immediately interested, and which had been so frequently postponed. However, he left it entirely to the house to determine whatever they should think fit.
Lord Howick
allowed that the discussion referred to was of an important nature. He deemed it important from other motives than as it related to an individual, and he trusted that when it was brought forward, it would be treated on general principles. He was also desirous that as little delay as possible should take place on this subject; but the delay of two days would not be very material, and he hoped, therefore, that the hon. gent. would consent to the postponement.
Mr. Cawthorne
acquiescing, the notice was entered for Friday next.
[ORDER OF COUNCIL RELATIVETO NEWTRALS.]
Mr.
Perceval
452
Lord Howick
finding that it was supposed that the motion for the production of this Order was a mere matter of course, had deemed it right to intimate to the learned gent. that he should feel it his duty to resist it. He certainly should not object to its production, on the ground of its having already obtained publicity in the London gazette and in his majesty's proclamation; for although he was aware, that the proceeding of the house might be founded on such a publication, yet he was also aware with the learned gent. that it would be a more regular course of proceeding to produce the document on the table. But although the document in its present state might be sufficiently authentic, yet it did not follow that it must be produced to the house of commons. There might be two causes for requiring such a production; the first on the ground of some declared parliamentary measure; the next, for the purpose of instituting some undefined proceeding. The last was the cause alleged by the learned gent. It became the duty of the house to enquire into the nature of that proceeding. As far as he was able to collect the views of the learned gent. they were such as he, for one, could by no means consent to. His object was altogether unprecedented, and in his opinion liable to the most serious objections. He therefore felt it his duty, until the learned gentleman should explain unto the house the nature of his ulterior proceedings, to object to the production of the
453
Mr. Perceval
although he should feel perfectly justified in making his motion for the production of the order in question, yet, after the declaration of the noble lord, and for the reasons he had before stated, he would decline doing so at present. The noble lord had described the ulterior proceeding which he meant to institute on this paper as unprecedented. This he would say, that the ground on which the noble lord objected to the production of the order was at least as unprecedented.
Lord Howick,
without wishing for any premature disclosure of the learned gent.'s intentions, thought it might be convenient to the house to be informed of the nature of those intentions.
Mr. Perceval
wished it to be understood, that the postponement of his motion was for the express purpose of giving himself an opportunity of bringing forward his proposition in the best possible shape. It would embrace in it the consideration of the policy, expediency, and adequacy of this order of council, as applied to occasions of such retaliative injury to the enemy's commerce, for the injury sustained by the commerce of this country; and also of the more vigorous execution of that wise principle of right and discretion, which the order on the face of it intended to enforce. He would shew, that the principle on which the order proceeded was not that on which it professed to proceed. He meant to propose a parliamentary resolution on its inadequacy and insufficiency which might find its way to his majesty's council, and which might produce an act of more vigour, and measures better calculated to benefit the country. With regard to the precise form of his motion, which he would now fix for Thursday se'nnight, he had not yet made up his mind.
[ARMY ESTIMATES.]
Mr.
Johnstone
454
Mr. Calcraft
could not possibly listen in silence to the attack again made by the hon. gent. on the Board of Ordnance, otherwise he should not have risen on the present occasion: for, two years ago, he had himself moved that the Army Estimates should be printed. Not being aware of any difference in the circumstances of that period and the present, he should feel it his duty to support the hon. gent.'s motion. With regard to what the hon. gent. had again said, in implication of the board of ordnance, the state of the case was precisely this, a large equipment of stores and ordnance was sent for from the island of Ceylon. It was particularly demanded by the commanding officer, that English gunpowder should be sent out, because, as be stated, the powder in the island was so bad, that not only an immediate supply was necessary, but also a future annual supply. He had on a former occasion told the hon.
455
Mr. S. Bourne
in answer to the first objection made to the motion by the right hon. secretary, namely, that the estimates were extremely voluminous, declared, that that was the very circumstance which induced the hon. gent. who had just sat down, two years ago to move for their being printed; it not being possible for each member to have recourse to the sole copy, which was on the table of the house. As to dangerous disclosures, the Abstract, which on that evening had been ordered to be printed, would convey to the enemy all the information that they could possibly obtain from the estimates, for that abstract stated the amount of our military force in different parts of the world. He could not help thinking, that the change in the side of the house on which some hon. gentlemen sat, had made a wonderful difference in their sentiments on the policy of producing and printing papers. As no mischievous effects had resulted from the printing of the estimates, he should certainly support the motion.
Lord Temple
thought the motion was only an indirect attempt to put off the debate on the Army Estimates; for it must
456
Mr. Rose
was sure that there could be no disposition in the hon. mover to put off the debate on the army estimates. He was persuaded that they might be printed, and delivered to the members by Monday.
Lord Howick,
however anxious not to withhold from the house any means of obtaining information which were unattended by unnecessary expence and inconvenient delay, would never be deterred by any taunts that might be thrown out by gentlemen opposite, on what they conceived to be a change of sentiments produced by a change of situation, from doing that which he felt it to be his duty to do. It was true that the estimates had been printed two years ago, but new military plans were then in discussion. Had the estimates been printed last year? No; the fair inference then was, that experiencing the expence and inconvenience of printing such a voluminous mass of papers, the house had thought proper to confine its order to the printing of the abstract. He denied the possibility of printing papers containing so many figures by Monday; nor could he see the probability of their being produced in time to be useful in the discussion of Wednesday, a discussion which it would be extremely inconvenient to postpone.
Mr. Perceval,
adverting to the determination expressed by the noble lord, not to be deterred from any line of conduct which he might think proper to adopt, was happy to observe the reforming Virtue which induced the noble lord to abide by other principles than those by which till lately he had been actuated. This was information which the country must be glad to receive. When the noble lord was in opposition, he supported the motion made by the hon. gent. near him, (Mr. Calcraft) for printing the army estimates. Here then was a precedent established of their own. What was the precedent against the motion? Did it arise on the side of the house on which he (Mr. Perceval) sat? No. Last year an hon. general, no longer a member, (Gen. Tarleton) had pressed for the printing of the estimates. The noble lord seemed to think, that when new mili
457
Lord Howick
alluding to the congratulation of the learned gent. on what he termed a change in his principles, explained his former statement on that subject. What he had said was, that because he had formerly supported motions under certain circumstances, he would not be deterred by any taunts that might be thrown out against him from opposing similar motions under different circumstances. He challenged the learned gent. to point out an instance in which he had abandoned a single principle of his political life. In the session before last, a military arrangement of great importance was in agitation, which rendered the printing of the estimates necessary, but in the last session this was not the case. In the year before the last, a sufficient time had been given for the printing of the estimates, before the discussion. Last year the printing was not moved for till the estimates had been voted.
Mr. Perceval
explained, that he had not said the noble lord had abandoned his principles, but had abandoned his former line of conduct.
458
Mr. Montague
supported the motion. If large expensive establishments were necessary, he observed, and if in such cases objections were made to motions which went to enable the house more easily to examine into the public expenditure, a precedent would be formed, which would render it impossible for the members of that house to do their duty by their constituents. The facility, therefore, which would be afforded to them in doing their duty, would more than counterbalance any expence that might be incurred by printing these papers. The expence of printing such papers might well be saved, by economy in many other respects. For instance, if the powder sent to Ceylon from this country had been purchased at Madras, we should have had a saving, which would have gone far beyond any expence that could be incurred by printing the estimates now before the house. He saw no good ground of objection to the motion.
Mr. Biddulph
thought it incumbent on him to say a few words, as he had seconded this motion. He considered economy in the public expenditure, of so much importance, that he would have been the last man to have given his countenance to any thing that would be attended with expence, had he not been satisfied that this was one of those cases where the saving of a few pounds might lead to the loss of many thousands. It was absolutely necessary that every facility should be allowed to gentlemen in enquiring into the public expenditure. This, at the present moment, was the most important of duties. He himself also wished to say something on the subject of these estimates, but it was utterly impossible for him to make himself completely master of them, unless he was allowed to take the papers home with him. But this he could not do unless they were printed, for in their present state they must lie on the table till they came to be discussed. He could not do his duty with satisfaction to himself therefore, unless the papers were printed, by which means he could have a copy home with him. This was the reason why he had seconded the motion. As to the question of the powder sent to Ceylon, he thought the board of Ordnance could not possibly have refused under such a requisition. But he hoped that in future the supply would be sent from India. If the board chose to enquire into the matter, they would get information in London that the Indian powder was not only not
459
Mr. Calcraft
observed, that an hon. gent. (Mr. Montague) seemed to suppose that it was always to be the system to send out powder to Ceylon from this country, when he (Mr. C.) had expressly stated that it was intended in future to send it from India.
Mr. Montague
stated that that very possibly might have been a system, had it not been for the discussions that had arisen upon the subject.
Mr. Vansittart
observed, that when gentlemen proposed a delay of two or three days, they did not seem to understand the course of the treasury. A million of money would be due on Friday next, and it was necessary to have the vote passed before that time.
Mr. Ruthven
said, that if any information injurious to the country could be conveyed to the enemy by printing these papers, he would have opposed the motion. But the printing of the Ordnance Estimates had led him to believe, that no danger of this sort could reasonably be apprehended from printing the Army Estimates. The printing of the Ordnance Estimates had been advantageous, in as much as it had led to an investigation, the result of which, in his opinion, had done great honour to the Ordnance Board. When he said so, he begged it to be understood, that he had no particular connection with any member of it. The ground on which he would vote for printing these Estimates was, that it was impossible for every member to read them at the table before Wednesday, even supposing that they had begun from the time of presenting them. No man could contend that the house could be fully informed as to the contents of the papers, unless they were printed. But it was presumed that all who came to this house to give their votes, were in full possession of the nature and merits of the case. Whether or not they could be printed, so as to afford sufficient time for the house to be prepared to discuss them on Wednesday he could not say, but he was satisfied that the attempt ought to be made.
Sir R. Williams
thought, that when the secretary at war had declared, that to print these estimates would be to convey dangerous information to the enemy, it was the duty of every independent member to resist the motion.
Lord Castlereagh
said, he had moved for the printing of the Abstract rather than for
460
Secretary at War
Mr. Johnstone
would not have trespassed further on the time of the house, had it not been with a view to do justice to himself in repelling the insinuations of a noble lord, who had hinted that he said one thing while he meant another. His object was not to occasion delay, but to examine minutely those papers. He would have no objection to grant some money on account, if it was wanted immediately, as had been said by the secretary of the treasury. But his object was, from a careful examination of the contents of the papers, to see whether there was not room for reform in the expenditure. The first argument of the secretary at war was futile, and his second was not better. What was his objection? Why, that these papers would convey information to the enemy. Of what could they convey information? Delay was not his object. He was anxious to see how far the numerous pledges economy which the gentlemen on the other side had made such a bluster about while in opposition, had been redeemed. Their conduct might not perhaps come to be discussed on the
461
Lord Howick
observed, that he now understood, from the hon. gent. that he wished not for delay, but that all he wanted was to be fully informed on this subject, in order to see whether ministers had acted up to those principles of economy which they had formerly professed, and whether they had shewn an inclination to redeem their pledges to the public. If that was the ground on which the hon. gent. rested his motion, he would be inclined to withdraw his opposition. He was anxious that all the measures of the administration should be carefully and minutely examined and canvassed. The hon. gent. had said that they had wasted the public money, and granted new and exorbitant salaries to themselves. He wished that their conduct should be sifted to the bottom, and hoped that since these charges had been preferred, they would be speedily brought forward, that the house and the country might have an opportunity of judging of their validity. Now, if it should be understood that the discussion of the Army Estimates should not be delayed, though the papers should not be printed in time, he had no objection to withdraw his opposition with this reservation. The noble lord on the other side had said that the abstract would answer his purpose. If more was wanted, it was unfortunate that the motion had not been made sooner. The hon. gent. had given no notice of it, and he was not prepared to say how far the danger of communicating information to the enemy might be increased by printing the whole of the papers. If, therefore, the hon. gent. would postpone his motion till to-morrow, an opportunity would be afforded of comparing the papers. [The secretary at war here mentioned to him, that the only difference was in the greater particularity of the de
462
Mr. Johnstone
observed, that he would not oppose the vote of such a sum as might be immediately wanted, and this he conceived would remove all inconvenience.
Mr. Perceval
said, that every one would allow that it was necessary to see these papers in the mean time, in order to be enabled to enter upon a discussion with respect to the contents. But if the vote should be passed on Wednesday, it must be done without any one having an opportunity of examining the papers in the mean time, supposing they should now be sent to the printer, and could not be finished before the proposed time of discussion. But what would do away all these difficulties would be to vote a considerable sum on Wednesday on account, if the papers should not be printed before that time.
Lord Howick
asked why the motion had not been made sooner, and why they now took occasion to press it at this late period? Full time had been given for any such motion, much more than, to his knowledge, had been given in some former years. The only ground on which he could agree to the motion was, that it might afford an opportunity of sifting the conduct of ministers, and of bringing the charges against them to a discussion, if the hon. gentlemen should find any reason to prefer them. He could not consent to delay the vote.
Mr. Whitbread
observed, that it was his intention at first to have supported the motion, for he was satisfied that these papers could convey no material information to the enemy. But he congratulated the house and the country on the great change which had taken place in the conduct of the learned gent. opposite (Mr. Perceval), who was so ready with his charges of changing against others. The house and the country must be peculiarly happy to find; that he who formerly objected to all information on these points, was now suddenly become so zealous an advocate for information. The learned gent. certainly wished for delay. Now, if the papers were to be printed with a view to the ulterior purpose of the hon. mover, he would certainly not object to the motion. But he would vote against printing them, unless it was
463
Mr. Perceval
said, that his only object had been to obviate difficulties.
Lord Howick
thought that the best course would be for the hon. gent. to withdraw his motion for the present, and leave the papers on the table till the vote was passed; after which he might have the papers printed, with a view to the ulterior object for which he wanted them.
Mr. Johnstone
wished to know from the Speaker, how far it was reasonable to suppose that the papers might be printed before Wednesday.
Speaker
Lord H. Petty
observed, that the same reason, the multitude of figures, which rendered it difficult to print these papers in a short time, also rendered it difficult to examine them minutely. It would be better to have the papers on the table in the mean time. He therefore suggested, whether the object of the hon. gent. (for he was anxious that the minutest enquiries should take place into all the branches of the public expenditure), would not be answered by leaving the papers in the mean time, and moving to have them printed afterwards?
Mr. Fuller
hoped that the abstract would at all events be printed in the mean time.
Mr. Johnstone
then stated, that he was ready to consent to what had been proposed, but he begged leave at the same time to state, that it was perfectly in order and consistent with the duty of any member, to propose such a motion as the present one, which he should now, for the reasons stated, withdraw for the present.—The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, January 20.
[MINUTES.]
The house at its meeting, proceeded, pursuant to the order of the day, to a ballot for a committee, to try and determine the merits of the petition complaining of the election and return for the borough of Malden. The members returned upon the reduced list, and who were sworn as the committee, are the following: R. M. Phillips, esq.; L. P. Jones, esq.; hon. W. E. Eden; W. Biddulph, esq.; B. Hall, esq.; W. L. Hughes, esq.; lord Clive; sir G. Heathcote; hon. H. Caulfield; lord Forbes R. Benyon, esq.; J.
464
465
466
[NEUTRAL TRADE, BUENOS AYRES, &c.]
Sir T. Turton
seeing a noble lord (Howick) in his place, rose for the purpose of putting two or three questions to his lordship on certain points which appeared to him to require explanation. That noble lord, in his answer to a question from a learned gent. (Mr. Perceval) on a former night, stated, that his majesty's ministers had, in the treaty which they had concluded with America, reserved to themselves the right of protecting the trade of this country against the measures of the enemy. If he understood the noble lord's answer right, it amounted to this, that his majesty's ministers had reserved the right to act for the protection of British trade, by the adoption of such measures towards neutrals, as they should submit to at the hands of France. If he was correct in his interpretation of his lordship's answer, he wished to be informed whether, in the event of its being necessary to adopt more vigorous measures than were authorized by his Majesty's proclamation, there was any thing in the late treaty with America, which would prevent his majesty's ministers from resorting to such measures? He was induced to ask this question because of the opposition that had been stated to the learned gent. for the production of a copy of his majesty's proclamation. Besides, it would be desirable for the house to be informed upon this head, previous to the debate that was to take place on the learned gent.'s motion, and it was peculiarly necessary to know whether his majesty's ministers could act with the vigour which circumstances might require on account of the artful and insidious understanding which seemed to exist between the French and American governments. He Wished to know whether they could adopt measures for the blockade of the ports of the enemy in the West Indies? The second question was relative to a late issue of money to the continent. It was notorious to every person, that an issue of money, to the amount of 3 or 400,000
l
467
Lord Howick
in answer to the explanation desired by the hon. baronet, of his answer to a question of a learned gent. on a former night, had only to restate what he had said on that occasion. The treaty with America would not prevent his majesty from resorting to such measures for distressing the trade of the enemy, as neutrals should submit to on the part of the French government. Whether this was provided for in the late treaty, or otherwise, it was not for him then to state. The house would be aware that this was not the time for the publication, or discussion of the terms of a treaty, which was still subject to eventual ratification. This was all he thought necessary in answer to that part of the hon. baronet's enquiry: but he could not pass by without an observation on the extraordinary ground upon which he had thought proper to found his question, namely, that the house should be put in possession of the express stipulations of the treaty with America on this head, preparatory to the discussion of the motion of the learned gent. opposite (Mr. Perceval). To a question put on such a ground he could not be bound to make any answer, because he would not be justified in any premature disclosure of terms of that treaty: with regard to the right of blockade, that was a general right resulting from a state of war, and which his majesty's ministers could not be supposed to have given up. The exercise of that right, however, must be in a great degree left to their discretion, and he trusted the house would not interfere, until they should see strong grounds of suspicion that such discretion had been abused. With respect to the issue of
468
Sir T. Turton
thanked the noble lord for the manliness and candour of his answers. He wished only to know, whether his majesty's ministers had actually reserved the right of adopting more vigorous measures; because the answer of the noble lord on the former occasion, had. been variously stated to him. As to the issue of the money, he wished to be informed on what particular ground that measure had been founded? He now perceived that it was founded on the treaty of 1805, which was no longer in force; and as this did not seem satisfactory to him, he proposed, on some future day, to submit a motion to the house on the subject.
Lord Howick
desired it might be distinctly understood that the money sent was only the balance due to Russia for services performed under the stipulations of that treaty.
Mr. Perceval
did not mean to prolong this conversation, but as his notice had been adverted to in the course of it, he took that opportunity of intimating his intention, in consequence of the unavoidable absence of an hon. friend, to put off his motion, from the Thursday for which it was then fixed, to the Tuesday following. The learned gent, at the same time disclaimed any wish to force the terms of the treaty with America into premature discussion.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, January 21.
[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.]
Lord Grenville said, that finding it would better suit the convenience of many noble lords to have the discussion on the bill for abolishing the Slave Trade postponed, he rose for the purpose of moving to defer the second reading of the bill till Monday
469
The Earl of Westmoreland
rose to thank the noble lord for the proposed delay. He was, however, of opinion, that the extended time now proposed, was no more than sufficient to allow the bill to be properly known and considered throughout the country. The noble lord then moved for an address to his majesty, praying that there might be laid before the house copies or extracts of any correspondence between his majesty's principal secretary of state, and the governors of the colonies, respecting the amelioration of the condition of the slaves, and the effect of the abolition of the trade in slaves in the colonies. Information on these points had not, he observed, been laid before that house for several years, and he thought it of importance that they should be put in possession of information upon these subjects, previous to the discussion upon the bill for abolishing the slave trade.
Lord Grenville
said he had no objection to the motion, although he doubted whether the production of these papers would afford so many proofs of zeal in the colonies, with respect to the objects comprised in the motion, as the noble lord seemed to expect.—The motion was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, January 21.
[MINUTES.]
A new writ was issued for a burgess to serve for Coleraine, in the room of sir G. F. Hill, who had made his election for Londonderry.—The deputy clerk of the crown attended, pursuant to order, and erased the names of lord Fitzharris and lord Palmerston, who were returned with Mr. L. P. Jones and colonel Wilder to serve for the borough of Horsham.—Sir J. Newport brought in the bill to amend the Corn Intercourse act, passed last session, by not extending the provision of the former act to any grain not the growth of Great Britain and Ireland. The bill was read a first time.
[LONDONDERRY ELECTION PETITION.]
General Walpole moved that the order
470
Mr. W. Dundas
thought, that such a motion not being a motion of course, some reason should be specified to induce the house to do that which, upon mere general grounds, it seemed averse to do. He, for his part, was such an enemy to any teazing procrastination in the case of election petitions, that he should feel it his duty to vote against the motion of the hon. general, unless it appeared to him to be grounded upon substantial reasons. The hon. general had stated merely, that if his motion was not agreed to, it would be productive of inconvenience to the petitioning party. This might be true, but it was, notwithstanding, too loose and general a statement to warrant the extraordinary indulgence now called for.
General Walpole
said that when a similar indulgence was claimed for the Aberdeen petition, the hon. gent. did not seem to think this indulgence so extraordinary, nor did he in that instance at least appear such an enemy to delay as he now professed himself to be. And yet with respect to the two cases, they were entirely analogous, except in one or two points, which gave that of the Londonderry petition stronger claim upon the indulgence of that house. Both places were precisely the same distance, with this difference, and a material one it was, the great uncertainty of passage. His own repeated experience had enabled him to state, that the communication between the two countries as to the county in question, had often not been effected within less than a fortnight, and to his own personal knowledge, once did not take place within less than 3 weeks. He moved, therefore, for the delay, in order that sufficient time might be allowed for the necessary exchange of communications between this country and Ireland.
Mr. W. Dundas
replied, that six weeks had already elapsed since the petition had been presented, and that in that time the necessary communication might have been made.
Sir J. Newport
apologised for trespassing upon the house, but as he had been as yet the only member who had travelled through the fiery ordeal of an Irish election petition, the subject was too interesting for him to let pass without some observation.
471
Mr. W. Dundas
in explanation, begged leave to remind the house, that the Aberdeen case was in two material points distinct from that now before the house; the peculiar circumstance of the Scotch baronet, and the agreement of both the parties in their joint wish for a more distant day.
Mr. Perceval
objected to the principle laid down by an hon. gent., that the sitting member allowed to enjoy the privilege of a seat in that house, had no reason to complain of delay upon the part of the petitioners, because that such a principle might be readily applied to all election petitions, and therefore could not be advanced as peculiar claim upon a peculiar indulgence; and because that even admitting it, suspense was not of all states the most enviable; nor did he at all think it unreasonable that the sitting member should wish that his suspense should be put as short a period to as possible, as it was very natural for any man in that house to feel himself more comfortable in the possession of his seat in parliament, when all doubts as to the permanency of that possession was removed. As to the argument of delay upon the grounds of necessary communications, and bringing over Irish agents, it had not been alleged that such delay was not foreseen, and if it was foreseen, there was certainly sufficient time to provide against it, as six weeks had elapsed since the petition had been presented.
General Walpole
answered, that the delay that had hitherto occurred, was owing to the absence of the petitioner in Ireland.
Lord Howick
begged leave to correct the statement of the learned gent. (Mr.
472
Mr. Rose
said, that the return was given in in the first week of December, and contended that, at the time, the party petitioning must have been aware of all the consequent delay a petition would be productive of, and the term of time the preparatory business would necessarily require.
Mr. C. Wynne
maintained, that it was impossible for a party petitioning to be apprised of all the circumstances at the close of the election, and that it was upon this principle that parliament granted 14 days from the first day of their sitting to all persons petitioning. He thought that in general, Irish petitions, with respect to the grant of a distant day, had peculiar claims upon the indulgence of the house.
Lord G. Beresford
said, that he did not receive notice of this petition till the 3d of January, and yet that since that day he had been able to effect such communication with Ireland, that he professed himself ready at that moment to go before the committee.—The house then divided upon the motion of general Walpole, that the order of the day for hearing the said petition be discharged. Ayes, 67; noes, 49. The petion was then ordered to be taken into consideration on the 17th of March.
[ARMY ESTIMATES.]
Lord Castlereagh, before the order of the day should be proceeded upon, wished for some explanation on a point very material to the discussion. The right hon. secretary opposite, on opening his military plan last year, had stated, that it was not intended to apply to the men then serving, the system of discharges at the end of 7 and 14 years; but that the men who were entitled by having served so long, were to have the increased
473
Mr. Secretary Windham
said, it had been in contemplation at the period alluded to by the noble lord, to discharge with full pensions the men who had served 21 years. His own opinion as to the propriety of that proceeding was still the same. But it was a point that rested with the discretion of his majesty's government generally; and which had not yet been decided upon. The men who had served that period of time had not demanded their discharges, they of course remained still in the service, having all the advantages of pay and allowances which the vote of last session granted.
The Secretary at War
said, that as the estimates he had to move were, with very few exceptions, made conformable to those of the last year, it would not be necessary for him to trespass upon the house, at any considerable length. The estimates now before the committee were classed under 26 heads; namely,
NUMBER.
CHARGE.
£.
s
d
1. Guards, Garrisons, &c
113795
4051623
0
6
2. Forces in the Plantations, &c
79158
2609143
13
9
3. India Forces
25115
582397
0
0
4. Troops and Companies for recruiting ditto
437
25214
10
0
5. Recruiting, and Contingencies
———
227249
0
10
6. General and staff Officers
———
190529
17
6
7. Embodied Militia and Fencible Infantry
94202
2493644
7
5
8. Contingencies for ditto
———
62153
17
0
474
9. Clothing for ditto
—
157227
16
4
10. Full Pay to Supernumerary Officers
———
34418
11
0
11. Public Departments
———
221200
18
5
12. Allowance to Innkeepers, &c
———
467273
3
11
13. Half Pay and Allowances
———
192515
2
11
14. Ditto American Forces
44000
0
0
15. Ditto Scotch Brigade
———
750
0
0
16. In - Pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals
———
50597
19
9
17. Out-Pensioners of ditto
———
355785
7
8
18. Widows' Pensions
———
43258
7
6
19. Volunteer Corps
———
1490301
4
8
20. Foreign Corps
21473
832540
19
9
21. Royal Military College
———
22175
5
10
22. Royal Military Asylum
———
21227
8
4
23. Allowances to Retired and Officiating Chaplains
—
#x2014;—
18208
15
11
24. Hospital Expences (Ireland)
———
18461
10
10
25. Barrack Department (ditto.)
———
469450
12
6
26. Compassionate List.
———
12000
0
0
———
———
———
334180
14743348
12
4
Deduct the India Forces
25115
582397
0
0
———
———
———
TOTAL
309065
14160951
12
4
———
———
———
l
l
475
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
476
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
477
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
478
479
480
Lord Castlereagh
rose. He said he had listened with great attention to the statement of the right hon. gent., and though he did not mean to enter into the items, he confessed, he certainly felt considerable difficulty in entering into this discussion, from the circumstance of the estimates not being printed, and still more from the want of any distinct specification, as to a great part of the expence, that had arisen out of the new measures adopted in the last session. It was difficult to come prepared to state an opinion generally upon a large branch of the public expenditure, when a great part of the expenditure of that branch remained wholly unexplained. He thought parliament was unnecessarily subjected to this difficulty, and that a more full explanation might have been afforded before the estimates were called for. He had imagined that when parliament was called together at a period so unusual, and so inconsistent With the habits of the country, some measure connected with the paramount interests of the people must have been the motive. Nothing, however, had yet been submitted to parliament, but the ordinary routine business, except merely the negotiation papers. And he was of opinion that the discussion of that subject, too, might better have been postponed till a period more congenial to the parliamentary practice of business, and more likely to be accompanied with a full attendance of members. Such a postponement would have suited a subject involving so materially the character and conduct of ministers, and the honour and interest of the country; and it would have been more becoming than the unnecessary precipitation with which the papers had been forced upon the consideration of parliament. The right hon. gent. who had opened this debate, was not in the immediate councils of his majesty; but he held a high and responsible situation, and ought, therefore, to be able to assign sufficient grounds for the manner in which he acted. In the last year, the right hon. gent. had brought forward the Army Estimates four times, instead of one, in order to allow time to mature the arrangements which were then under contemplation. He wished to know why the same space might not be now al-
481
l
482
483
484
485
486
487
l
l
l
488
489
d.
s.
d.
s.
l
s
490
s
s
l
l
s
l
s
l
s
d
l
s
d
491
492
Mr. Secretary Windham
in rising to reply to the speech of the noble lord, felt that there were many of his charges which it was impossible for him to retaliate. Two hours ago he was ready to remove that part of the noble lord's accusation, which reproached him with taciturnity; and certainly the mass a extraneous matter which the noble lord had introduced into his speech, had increased the subject of reproach; because, it was impossible for him to follow the noble lord through the whole of his arguments. From all that had been said by him in former debates, he did not conceive that it would be necessary for him to express himself much at length, and should therefore in this instance adhere to taciturnity by being as brief as possible. It would generally seem, that one long speed imposed the necessity of another nearly as long to answer it: but here the noble lord had imposed upon him the taciturnity he complained of, because he was not at that late hour so much to consider the time that might be spent in a reply, as the time that remained to be spent. When he had opened his measure in detail to the house, he had been obliged to do so in a speech or considerable length, a thing to which he always felt a reluctance, but the noble lord's
incidental
incidentally
493
494
495
l
starved
maintained
496
497
498
dram
"Non fumum ex fulgore, sed ex fumo dare lucem;"
499
500
l
501
502
Mr. Perceval
said, that there were some remarks made by the right hon. gent. to which he should slightly advert, others to which he should reply more fully, and some matters he should notice that had not been treated as fit for the attention of the committee. The observations of his noble friend (lord Castlereagh) seemed to have been wholly misunderstood; the anachronism complained of had nothing to do with the argument; the charge against ministers was distinctly this, that they had taken no means whatever to secure the acquisition of Buenos Ayres until they had intelligence of its re-capture. The right hon. gent. affirmed that there was hardly any thing more fallacious than calculation. This opinion he (Mr. Perceval) supposed was the reason why he never indulged the house with his estimates; and from the same motive it was that the noble lord's computations remained uncontradicted; or perhaps it might be, that the arithmetical view given of the subject was unanswerable, and the right hon. gent. prudently declined making an attempt in which he could not succeed. The misfortune was, that when the right hon. gent. did try his hand at calculation, he was always erroneous. Such was his representation with regard to the bounty, which he said had been reduced 5 guineas. The truth was, that on the former plan, for 21
503
l
l
s
504
505
Lord Howick
said, that after the able Statement of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), he should not have occasion to enter much at length into the subject. He would first advert to an objection which had lately been often started, and as often, he trusted, satisfactorily answered. Ministers were accused of not having resorted to the necessary means for the protection of Buenos Ayres. The answer given to this charge was, that no supplies could have arrived in time to prevent the re-capture, if, indeed, that unfortunate event had happened; and this was the only proper reply to such an accusation. The noble lord (Castlereagh) asserted, that such supplies would have arrived sufficiently early, allowing 10 days for the sailing of the transports, after intelligence of the capture by his majesty's arms had been obtained. Was the noble lord serious in representing, that 10 days were a sufficient time for such an undertaking; to prepare an expedition to a distant part of the globe, with the uncertainty that after its arrival the troops could even land there, and might probably have to proceed to some other settlement yet more remote? Did the noble lord recollect, that for such a project there could have been no anterior preparation? And could he imagine that 10 days were enough to provide and dismiss this effectual aid? While the noble lord supposed it to be no easy matter to cross the Atlantic with all this host of war in ten days, did he remember, that with him it occupied as many months to fit out an expedition to cross the British Channel,
506
507
508
509
510
511
Sir John Doyle
said, it was his intention to have delivered his sentiments on the present subject, but at that hour, after the very ample explanations which had been made by the noble lord and the right hon. gentleman, he should be ashamed to trespass on the time of the house; and, as he understood a further discussion would take place on the subject, he would reserve himself for that occasion.
Mr. Johnstone
begged leave to correct an error, which the secretary at war had fallen into in the course of his speech. The right hon. gent. had said, that he had pledged himself to make a charge against his majesty's ministers. He certainly wished to see how far the pledges made by those ministers had been fulfilled, or had, or had not been released. He did not pledge himself to make such a charge, but he professed an anxiety to examine the papers, and see how far those who had been so willing to bring forward charges of want of economy against former ministers, had themselves acted upon that principle.
The Secretary at War
replied, that it would appear, from the papers before the house, that since the present ministers came into office, they had uniformly observed the strictest economy.—After some conversation between Mr. Windham, sir J. Doyle, lord Castlereagh, and Mr. Rose, upon the subject of whether the returns from the inspector-general's or the adjutant-general's department, were the most correct to go by, upon the future discussion of this question, the original resolution was read and agreed to, without further opposition.
Lord Henry Petty
then rose, and having apologised fur troubling the house at that late hour, observed, that as some of the present estimates came more particularly within the department of the treasury, it
512
l
l
l
l
l
l
l
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, January 22.
The ballot for a committee to take into consideration the Petition complaining of an undue return for the borough of Weymouth, standing for to-day, at 4 o'clock the Speaker counted the house, when, only 64 members being present, the house necessarily adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, January 23.
[MINUTES.]
513
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, January 23.
[Minutes.]
[Militia Officers.]
514
[CRIMINAL AND PAUPER LUNATICS.]Mr. W. Wynne
moved, that a select committee be appointed to enquire into the state of the Criminal and Pauper Lunatics in England and Wales, and of the laws relative thereto, and to report the same with their observations to the house. It was a year and a half since he had called the attention of the house to this subject, which demanded immediate interference. The consequence of the attempt made by Hatfield on the life of his majesty, was an act empowering the judges in cases of acquittal on the ground of insanity, to order the person so acquitted to be detained in custody, until his majesty's pleasure re–specting them should be known. Under this act, several unfortunate persons were now lying in public jails; of all places, the most improper for their abode. He re–ferred to an instance in the county which he had the honour to represent, of a per–son who, having been tried for murder and acquitted, on the ground of insanity, had been imprisoned in the public jail, in which all possible care was taken of him that could be expected from persons igno–rant of the mode of treatment, peculiarly requisite for lunatics, committed another murder on a felon in the same prison. Pauper lunatics, as the law then stood, were maintained by the parish, so that it became the interest of overseers that these unhappy people should commit some out–rage by which the parishes might be relieved from the burthen of them. There were not less than 1700 pauper lunatics now in confinement. How to proceed, whether asy–lums should be erected to comprehend more than one county, or in what other way relief should be afforded, would be a proper subject of consideration for the committee which he proposed to institute.
Mr. S. Bourne
asked why the hon. gent.
515
Mr. W. Wynne
replied, that in those countries there were provisions which ren–dered the necessity of any interposition of the legislature less pressing than in England and Wales.—A committee was then appointed.
[CHARGES AGAINST MR. CAWTHORNE.] General Porter
said, he rose in pursuance of the notice he had given with reference to one of the members of that house. He felt himself unfortunate in his inability to perform the task he had undertaken, in the manner its importance demanded. He assured the house, that he had not the slightest enmity or rancour towards the person who was the object of his motion and he had therefore neither claimed nor solicited the support of any individual He had felt himself called upon by an imperious sense of his duty as a member of the house, but above all, by his sincere wish to maintain the honour and character of the profession to which he had been attached for upwards of 30 years. Actuated as he was by these sentiments, it could not be surprising that he should look up with respect to the decisions of those courts martial whose proceedings he was persuaded were uniformly dictated by justice and impartiality. Thinking as he did, he felt that a person who had been tried by 16 of the most respectable characters among the officers of the army, and found guilty of 11 charges out of 14, and who had been convicted of a crime only short of felony, was not a fit person to sit among the representatives of the country. He wished the house to be in full possession of the case and then to put it to the dignity and honour of the house, whether a person who had been so stigmatized was worthy of a seat in parliament? He should conclude with his motion; at the same time he trusted that if a debate arose, he might have the privilege of expressing himself more at large. He moved, "That the Charges made against John Fenton Cawthorne, esq. a member of this house, and the sentence pronounced against him in consequence by the Court Martial appointed to try him, together with the proceedings of the house thereon in session 1795–6, be now read." The motion was seconded by Mr. Spencer Stanhope.
Mr. Cawthorne
wished the hon. general had stated more fully his sentiments, and
516
Lord Howick
would not have said any thing upon this motion, had it not been for some expressions which fell from the hon. mem–ber who had spoken last. He apprehended that that hon. member had mistaken the na–ture of the case entirely, when he talked about another trial for the same offence,
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Mr. Spencer Stanhope
having seconded the motion, would say merely that he had intended to submit to the house, after the disposal of the present motion, a motion similar to that which the noble lord had just declared it was his intention to pro–pose. For the question ought assuredly to come to a solid and impartial decision, and were it even only
pro formâ
Mr. W. Herbert
observed, that it was not his intention to oppose the motion; but he felt himself called upon to express his opinion. With regard to the question, it did not appear to him to be one which could rest on precedent. The only question was, whether the house, had a pri–mary right of expulsion, and whether it had a right of re-expulsion? Then the only remaining question would be with re–gard to the propriety of enforcing that right, and whether there were grounds for exercising that discretionary power? The proof of this right could not rest on prece–dent. No person could deny the exis–tence of the primary right of expulsion. If that was allowed, the other right of re-expulsion must follow as of course. It
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General Gascoyne
asked, why the house was to be kept in suspence upon such a question? It appeared to him that the pro–position of the noble lord was the sugges–tion of the member against whom the mo–tion was directed; and yet the noble lord had said, that he should not have risen had it not been for what had fallen from that member. What were the precedents to which the noble lord thought fit to refer the house? If he was inclined to trespass upon the time of the house, he would take every one of the precedents, and would shew that they had no more to do with this question than they had to do with a ques–tion of bankruptcy. If the house an–xiously wished to see precedents, he had no objection; but upon the principle of their conveying any information to the house, he was against the motion. There was one precedent before the house upon which the house could not be mistaken. There was the precedent, that John Fenton Cawthorne was, for infamous and ungentleman like conduct in the year 1796, expelled the house. Till that could be erased from the Journals of the house, there could not be a precedent more decisive. He was sorry that the decision might hurt the feel–ings of the member to whom it was refer–red, but he had himself rendered the dis–cussion necessary. Supposing there was not to be found any precedent which ap–lied to the present case, was the house to make one merely to cover that which was disgraceful and infamous? If a precedent
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Lord Folkestone
thought that the two last gentlemen who had addressed the house had mistaken the question, which was merely, whether the proceedings of 1796 should be read. He hoped it would not be assumed by the hon. gent. opposite, that his arguments had been assented to, because they had not been answered. The hon. gent. seemed averse to going into a committee, and had stated that there was no precedent that applied to the present case. He could assure him that he was so con–vinced there was not a precedent, that he intended to have made a similar motion to that which the noble lord had suggested; and the noble lord would allow him to state, that there being no precedent was a strong argument to bring forward in an–swer to a proposition for expelling a member, and therefore he should support the no–ble lord's proposition. There was an ex–pression used by the same hon. gent., and also by the noble lord, with reference to the disagreeable feelings the discussion might excite. They had observed, that if such disagreeable feelings were experienced, the person must thank himself. He admitted, that upon a question of this kind, personal feelings must be left entirely out of the case; but he thought it extremely unfair to prejudice the house, by stating that a member had put himself in a situation in which disagreeable feelings were likely to be excited. Perhaps, it might turn out that the person alluded to had as much right to sit in this house as any other member. In such case, it would be peculiarly unjust to reproach him with having placed him–self in a situation in which he was liable to have his feelings wounded. It was his wish, and he hoped it was the wish of every one, to have this question decided as spee–dily as possible.
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Attorney-General
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Mr. Bragge Bathurst
said, that it was necessary for him, who had been a mem–ber of the parliament in which the member referred to had been expelled, to vindi–cate it from something that had fallen from a learned gent. (the attorney-general) who was not a member of that parliament. He begged to be understood as not wishing to enter into the question, either of the pro–priety of searching for precedents, or of reading the proceedings of the house. As to the question of searching for precedents, no material objection had been made. He could have wished that in this early stage of the discussion, the consideration of personal feelings had not been introduced. It could have no other effect than that of preventing the cool and dispassionate de–cision of the question. However, it was only his intention to notice what had fallen from the learned gent. Did he mean to say that the proceedings of the court martial were not now, or were not then, a proper ground for the house to exercise a privilege not disputed, of expelling one of its members? No such opinion, he was persuaded, had been maintained in the house when the question was determined
523
corpus delicti
The
Attorney-General
in explanation, declared that he never meant to question the grounds of the proceeding in the last parliament; a subject on which he was not sufficiently informed. If the house thought that the evidence (independent of the sen–tence) was conclusive, they had been right in doing as they had done. All that he had said was, that any sentence, and more especially any military sentence, must be an insufficient ground for such a proceeding.
Captain Herbert
asked, if the learned gent. thought the sentence of a court mar–tial too f
The
Attorney-General
denied having
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General Gascoyne
stated, in explanation, that he did not say the broad shield of government had been thrown over the delin–quent. He only cautioned the noble lord to avoid doing any thing which might be so misconstrued; nor did he say that the house should take the proceedings of a court martial for their guide; although he differed from the learned gent. on his notions of honour, he was as willing to abide by the honour of a court martial, as the decision of a court of justice.
Lord William Russell
observed, that although this question had been already dis–cussed and decided, still there was no reason why the house should not, under the present circumstances, exercise its discretion, and come to an opinion.
Mr. R. Ward
did not rise to detain the house by entering into the merits of this ques–tion, his object merely was, to receive further explanations from the learned gent. (the attorney-general) as to his application of fanci–ful notions of honour, &c. to courts martial.
The
Attorney-General
declared, that he did not apply the words honour or disho–nour to a court martial; he had already stated, that the acceptation of proceeding on any such fanciful phrase would not be received in a court of justice.
Mr. Adam
was exceedingly sorry to feel himself obliged to trouble the house on this subject, after the ample discussion it had undergone in this preliminary stage; but the warmth of some members having superseded the perfect good humour with which the noble lord had introduced his motion, made him rise, in the hope of es–tablishing the question on its original ground; and certainly he must confess, that the mode proposed by the noble lord appeared to him the best which the nature and importance of the case demanded. It was a proceeding founded on the princi–ples of the constitution, to which every member was willing to submit, at the same time that it maintained the dignity of the house, and the regularity of its proceed–ings. He was a little surprised to hear a distinction taken between principle and precedent; for his part, he did not think there was any, as applied to this case, for the one would be found to contain the other; or, to be more explicit, he thought that precedent contained principle. He was old enough to remember the proceedings in 1764, on the expulsion of Wilkes for
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Mr. Hurst
was astonished that a person of the ability of the learned gent. who spoke last, should say that there was no distinction between principle and precedent. They were far as the poles asunder. Pre–cedent might illustrate, but did not con–stitute a principle. He would support the motion for searching precedents, however, as they would shew what had been done in similar cases, if there were any. It there were no precedents, then we must resort to the principle, and make a precedent for the future.—The motion was then agreed to, and the sentence of the court martial,and the proceedings of parliament thereon in the session of 1795–6 read in brief; after which it was moved by
Lord Howick
that a committee be ap–pointed to examine into the journals of that house, and the records of parliament, for precedents of cases, in which members had been expelled by that house, who had been returned to it, and to report thereon to the house.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
in seconding the motion, thought it his duty to abstain from giving any opinion upon the case by antici–pation, one way or the other.
Mr. Bankes
perfectly agreed with the noble lord as to the course of proceeding which he recommended, but thought, that as the motion was worded, it would nar–row the view of the case. Gentlemen conversant with the records of that house, would be aware, that of cases similar to the present there were none, and of analo–gous cases extremely few. There were many cases to he found, which, as the motion was worded, the committee would think themselves bound to report. He
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Lord Howick
adopted the suggestion of the hon. gent., and moved, "that, a com–mittee be appointed to examine the jour–nals of this house, and records of parlia–ment for precedents of cases of members who have been expelled by this house, and for what causes they have been so expel–led, and also of cases in which members, having been expelled by this house, have been again returned; and to report the same to the house, together with the pro–ceedings thereon:" which was agreed to.
[PETITION OF THE ELECTORS OF LANCASTER RESPECTING MR. CAWTHORNE.] Lord George Cavendish
proposed to pre–sent a petition to the house from a very considerable number of the freemen of Lancaster. It had been put into his hands as he came into the house, and he thought it his duty to present it. But in doing this he would not pledge himself to any opinion upon the case. As he had been a member of the court mar–tial whose sentence had been alluded to, he should abstain from taking any share in those discussions. Of the contents of the petition he was ignorant, but if the house would consent to receive it, they would be enabled to judge of its contents when it should be read at the table.—The petition was then ordered to be brought up and read. It stated, "that the petitioners have been informed, that some measure, not being a petition from any party inter–ested, is depending before the house, having for its object to prevent, them from being represented in parliament by John Fenton Cawthorne, esq., one of the members chosen at the last general election to represent the borough of Lancaster in parliament: That the petitioners submit, that, according to the uniform practice in such cases, the legality of any election of a member of the house cannot be questioned, unless the same is made the sub–ject of a petition presented to the house within 14 days from the first meeting of parliament after such election; and that any attempt to invalidate such election,
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Captain Herbert
asked the noble lord who presented it, whether it was really the petition of the freemen of Lancaster? If it was, it appeared to him not to be in the light of a petition, but as a dictatorial and insolent attempt to controul parliament. The last paragraph appeared most reprehensible, where they acknowledged that they were acquainted with all the infamy that was the object of the motion. This admission would almost justify the house in disfranchising the borough. (A loud cry of no! no!) There certainly could be no doubt that a person declared incapable of serving his majesty in any capacity, was not fit for any trust.
Lord G. Cavendish
replied, that it had been put into his hands by persons of re–spectability, and was signed also by per-
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Mr. Cawthorne
observed, that the hon. gent. had taken up the question very warmly, but appeared to be totally unacquainted with the circumstances of the case. He could shew him an alphabetical list of the subscribers to the petition, which had been taken from the list of the freemen of Lancaster, and transmitted to him. Amongst them were the names of the chairman and magistrates of the quarter ses–sions, and many land-owners in the hun–dreds about the town. It was not by any personal considerations that he was influ–enced on this occasion, but by a regard to the rights of the gentlemen who had sent him to that house.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
observed, that this was a petition against a motion made, though no proceeding had taken place on the subject to which it alluded, till a few minutes ago. This was strange conduct, for which he did not think there was any precedent.
Lord Stanley
was of opinion, that this petition was of a nature so dictatorial, that it ought not to be suffered to remain upon the table of the house; but he would not agree, that it would justify a disfranchisement of the borough, because that would confound the innocent with the guilty. The petition was in the hands of the noble lord before any motion was made on the subject, or the petitioners could know whether their rights would be affected thereby. The petition was dictatorial, and presumed to lay down the law, and there–fore ought not to be laid on the table.
Mr. S. Bourne
entered his protest against the doctrines that had been laid down by the noble lord, and by the hon. gent. who had contended, that the language of the petition was so improper, as to justify the disfranchisement of the borough. The pe–titioners had a right to petition, if they apprehended, no matter upon what ground, that their rights were danger of being invaded. The language of the petition was the same with the language recorded upon the Journals of the house, that an attempt to invalidate a return, where the person was not legally disqualified, was subversive of the rights of electors. Had not the petitioners a right to use the same language as the house? He had risen only to protest against such novel and uncon-
529
Mr. S. Stanhope
appealed to the speaker, whether it was consistent with the forms and practice of the house to receive a petition against any proceeding not im–mediately under consideration of the house.
The
Speaker
as he had been appealed to, felt himself bound to declare, that he had always understood, and had collected from the proceeding of that house, that they opened their doors wide for receiving the petitions of all his majesty's subjects, whether with respect to grievances, real or apprehended, and that the only indispensable requisite in a petition, to intitle it to the consideration of that house was, that it should be couch–ed in language not offensive.
Lord Howick
agreed in the sentiments of the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. S. Bourne), and entirely concurred in the doctrine, laid down by the chair, that a petition from the subject was entitled to the atten–tion of that house, provided it was not couched in offensive language. The language of this petition seemed not to be of that description, for the petitioners humbly submitted that the apprehended proceed–ing would be subversive of the rights of electors. They should not construe too technically the letter of the petition.—The petition was ordered to lie on the table.
[NAVY ESTIMATES.]
On the motion of Mr. T. Grenville, the. house went into a committee of supply upon the Navy Estimates for the current year.
Mr. T. Grenville
rose, in pursuance of his motion, to move for a vote of 10,000 seamen, in addition to the 120,000 already granted. In moving a resolution to that effect, he felt it necessary to make some observation in reference to a charge of sup–posed neglect that had come from the other side of the house, upon the ground of the necessity of this additional supply not having been foreseen, when the late grant was made, for that nothing possibly could have occurred since the late de–mand was complied with to justify a sub–sequent demand for an additional vote of seamen. It would be found, however, upon examination, that his conduct had been, in this instance, strictly regular, and was to be justified upon the usual grounds of proceeding; the accounts ending the
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Mr. Johnstone
thought the right hon. gent. certainly satisfactory in the clear and comprehensive view he took of his propo–sed improvement in the way of presenting the navy estimates for the future to that house. He, however, did not think the gentleman equally satisfactory in explain–ing why this additional grant of seamen had not been moved for when the 120,000 men were voted. He could not reconcile it to his mind that it was satisfactory to hear that the first lord of the admiralty did not know upon the 30th of September the number of seamen in the service. He was, however, glad to hear this promise of detail, and hoped it would be extended to articles of expenditure, as well as of sup–ply; he hoped that the estimates might be printed, and did not see why (if the measures suggested by the commission of revi–sion were censurable) the right hon. gent. acceded to them the indulgence of six mouths' grace.
Mr. Rose
Mr. Perceval
thought it no ground for not continuing the commission of review, to say that its suggestions were not appro–ved of by his majesty's ministers, because nothing was more possible than that that commission might suggest measures as
533
Lord H. Petty
said, that the commission of revision had never been recommended by the commissioners of naval enquiry. He thought, however, his right hon. friend right in not putting an abrupt close to the proceedings of the commission, particular–ly as it had been stated that the said pro–ceedings would be brought to their desired issue within six months. With respect to what had fallen from a right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Rose), as to the facility of stating the accounts in the form proposed, he begged leave to ask why the gentleman himself had not before adopted a method so easy and so desireable?
Admiral Markham
said, that when he applied upon a former occasion for the ac–counts of repairs done in ship-merchants' yards, the answer he received from gentlemen then in power was, that it was a thing impossible to be effected.
Mr. Perceval
denied that he had said that the commissioners of review had been recommended by the naval enquiry commissioners.
Mr. Rose
to prove the justice of his al–legations, was willing to lay before the house a minute statement of all the char–ges for the last 8 or 10 years he was in office.
Mr. T. Grenvilte
asked, if it was fair or consistent, in the same instant, to censure him for laying the accounts before the committee in the usual way, and when he pro–posed a fuller and more satisfactory way of doing the same, to charge him with neglect, because he had not sooner made the discovery. As to granting a longer existence to the commissioners, he did not feel that it involved him in dilemma: the commissioners required time to wind up their labour, and he should have thought it a waste of all the former time and expence, if they were not continued the six months longer.
Mr. Rose
Mr. T. Grenville
was astonished at the suspicion which seemed to be entertained by the gentlemen on the other side, that because he wished to have the accounts of the navy laid before parliament in a more detailed and intelligible shape than they had hitherto been, he therefore meant any
534
Mr. Rose
disclaimed the suspicions imputed to him. The right hon. gent. was not among those whom he supposed capable of censuring the conduct of his right hon. friend. All he meant to say with respect to the accounts referred to, was this, that his late right hon. friend had been in the habit, for several years, of obtaining similar accounts from the office of the comptroller of the navy.
Mr. Vansittart
declared that he had never seen such an account in the treasury, and maintained that such an account as that alluded to by his right hon. friend, was continually necessary, in order to enable ministers to make out correct esti–mates, and also to render to parliament a correct account of the public expenditure.
Sir J. Newport
took occasion to complain of the conduct of public officers in not leaving in their offices any official documents which might be communicated to them. He was sorry to say that this conduct was particularly remarkable in the office which he had the honour to occupy, as upon his accession to it he did not find a single paper relative to previous official proceedings, at least on this side of the channel. Papers which contained, any official information, and which were communicated for public purposes, ought, as appeared to him, to be in no case removed from the proper offices, as they belonged not to the persons who might occupy any particular office, but to the public.
535
Mr. Rose
stated, that the paper he had was his own property, as it was a case for which he himself paid, and that the original ought to be in the treasury.
Mr. Ruthven
asked where the original was, in what office, and what denomination?
Mr. Rose
did not know what particular place, as he was not keeper of the papers. The motion for the grant of 10,000 men was agreed to, as were the following mo–tions: 240,500
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Mr. Vansittart
moved the following sums for miscellaneous service: 6,853
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[ARMY ESTIMATES.]
Mr. Hobhouse
536
brought up the report of the Army Esti–mates. Upon the first resolution being read,
Sir James Pulteney
rose. He said, that considering the lateness of the hour, he should confine himself to a very few ob–servations. As to the new military sys–tem being productive of an immediate sup–ply for the army, it was now proved that it had not had that effect; and although the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) might not have been very sanguine as to the num–ber that it might raise, yet it must be sup–posed that the advocates of the system did expect that it would at least produce some increase; whereas, on the contrary, it appeared by the estimates that it had occa–sioned a diminution. In order to make room for this system, which had only produced 5000 men in a year, we had repealed a former system which had produced 15,000. However his majesty's ministers might hope that this measure would ultimately be beneficial, he must ask them, did not they consider that some supply was neces–sary for the army in the present year, and whether any of their measures had a ten–dency to procure that supply? The hon. secretary at war had contented himself with saying, no bad effects have been yet felt from this measure; he thought, howe–ver, that he should have gone a little far–ther, and shewed that some good effects had been produced by it. As to the train–ing bill, it was a measure he extremely wished to be carried into effect. If ever there was a moment in which the measure was necessary, it was no less necessary at the present moment. The danger was not to be despised because it was somewhat distant; but, on the contrary, we should take that opportunity of being fully prepa–red to meet it when it should come. If the bill ever was a good one, it ought now to be carried into effect; but if, in the opi–nion of parliament, it was a bad bill, it ought to be repealed. As to the volun–teers, although it had been said by a noble lord that they were as numerous now as at any former time, yet it was notorious that there was by no means the same attend–ance at drills and musters that there was formerly, and that consequently the force could not be so effective.
Sir John Doyle
rose and addressed the house as follows.—Sir; I admit that it would be much more convenient to agree to the adjournment proposed by the hon. member (Mr. Rose), though it certainly does not come with the best grace from
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time
places
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if he can
secundém artem
544
Omnis sapiens est sutor;"
"Ne sutor ultra crepidam."
Delenda Carthago
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Mr. Johnstone
contended, that the statements made on a former evening by the noble lord (Castlereagh) had hitherto remained unanswered. He congratulated, however, the gentlemen on the other side, on the new discovery they had made re–specting the merits of the administration of a noble viscount (Sidmouth). After ha–ving, at a former period, heaped upon that noble viscount as a minister every term of reprobation which their imagination could conceive, they had at length found out that his administration was the most ener–getic of any for these three years past. As to the boasted measure of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) for recruiting the army, it must be evident that it had com–pletely failed. This appeared from the right hon. gentleman's own statement. It could not be expected that it would produce any other result. Was it by frittering away the bounty of the country in pen–nies and twopences that an army was to be raised? Was it not rather by holding out splendid rewards, which, though only falling to the lot of a few, were inducements to the many, that an army was to be expected to be created? Ministers how–ever, had not recurred to any thing of this nature, they had rather chosen to go on in the old way, and to grant promotions only to favour and to connections. What was to prevent them from recruiting from the militia? According to the right hon. gent.'s plan, the militia were to be reduced to 40,000 men; from the surplus number, therefore, the army might be strongly recruited. Yet, notwithstanding the ease with which this mode of recruiting might be resorted to, it had not been adopted. Why, the real reason he believed to be, because ministers were afraid of offending the militia colonels. This, of course, they could not state in that house, but this he believed to be the real reason. It had again been stated by a right hon. secretary of the treasury this evening, that he (Mr. J.) had pledged himself to make a motion re–specting the conduct of ministers relative to their professions of economy. He thought it necessary therefore again to deny, that he had so pledged himself. At the same time, he conceived that ministers had acted Wholly contrary to their professions of eco–nomy, and that all they had done was to give salaries to themselves, and with re–spect to salary granted to one of them he did intend to make it a subject of discussion in that house. The hon. gent. pro-
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Mr. Rose
expressed his regret at being obliged to detain the house at so late an hour, but he felt it his duty to make a few observa–tions, in consequence of its having been asserted by gentlemen on the other side, that if these estimates had been brought forward by the late administration, the amount would have been 5 or 600,000
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Mr. H. Thornton
thought the measure of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) for recruiting the army, deserved the highest praise as a general and permanent system, but he doubted its effect in providing for immediate defence. He approved highly of converting the service for life into a service for years. He approved also of the training bill, as tending to diffuse a mili–tary spirit throughout the country, but at the same time he thought it was calculated to do any thing rather than provide for im–mediate defence. The right hon. gent. had on former occasions given them the tone in calling for measures calculated to pro–cure an immediate supply for the army, and he must allow them to give him the tone again, in calling for measures of a similar nature. Much time was necessarily lost in preparing great measures, and in carrying them into execution, and he felt anxious for some measure that should in the mean while meet the immediate exi–gencies of the country.
Mr. Jacob
made a few observations relative to the capture of Buenos Ayres. Among other things, he stated that a most able and intelligent officer, a gentleman who had been particularly noticed in the dispatches from that place, had informed him that nothing but the great prompti–tude of general Beresford, prevented the army from laying down their arms; and that, if it were not that the most active and spirited exertions were made by that officer, if they were delayed for the space of two or three hours, the whole army must have met with inevitable destruction. An account of the recapture of that place had been put into his hands since he had come into the house; but from a compa–rison of the date of that communication, and the place it came from, with the date of the original capture, and the situation of the city itself, he found that it was im–possible that the fact could then have ta–ken place, and therefore could not suppose from that authority, that it had taken place at all. To have carried the intelligence
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Lord H. Petty
corrected some apprehensions which appeared to have prevailed among gentlemen on the opposite side of the house. It was stated, that the number of men raised according to the papers on the table, did not equal the amount of what his right hon. friends had stated in their speeches. It was to be recollected, however, the papers began the account from the month of March last, and, of course, they did not contain a year's return. Now, if gentlemen would have the goodness to wait until the month of March next, he was confident, from the result of the most minute enquiries which he had made in the best informed quarters, that by that time the numbers would even exceed those stated in the estimate of his right hon. friends; the house had also the testimony of a gallant officer near him (general Doyle), that the measure of the right hon. secretary was already the means of adding to the consideration and character of our army: then, when he considered that it was thought by the noble lord (Cas–tlereagh) and the other gentlemen on the opposite side of the house, to be a most grievous piece of expence, that some trifling addition should be given to the sol–dier who was disabled in the service of his country; when he reflected on this, he could not say that he envied the feelings of those noble and honourable members. Oh miserable thought to their minds, if some happy man should, after the faithful discharge of his duty to his king and coun–try, enjoy perhaps some 20
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, January 26.
[OAK BARK BILL.]
On the motion of lord Temple, that the Oak Bark bill be read a second time,
Mr. W. Herbert
said, he was sorry to oppose any measure proposed by his noble friend, but could not agree to the bill in its present form. If the act of James I. was to be revised, he thought that all the penalties imposed by that statute should be repealed. It appeared to him to be an act of injustice to repeal the clause that was the object of this bill, and to leave the rest of the penalties imposed by that measure in force. The repeal of the whole act was necessary to the comfort of the different classes of tradesmen, whose interests were concerned, and it would not be prejudicial to the public. He begged to suggest to his noble friend the propriety of putting off the second reading of the bill, and of appointing in the mean time a committee to consider of the propriety of the revision, or repeal of the whole act.
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Mr. Wilberforce,
from the letters which he had received from different parts of the country, could state, that the measure before the house, was one which had excited a considerable and lively sensation in the country. He agreed in the suggestion that had been so ably urged by the hon. gent., for the appointment of a committee to consider of the act, before which all the parties interested might be fully heard.
Lord Temple
wished to say a few words just to acquit himself of the charge of precipitation in bringing forward this measure. The clause of the act which it was designed to repeal, had lain dormant, and had never been acted upon, till, in the course of last sessions, prosecutions had been instituted for the receiving of penalties incurred under it. He had thought it necessary in that instance to bring forward a bill to suspend these prosecutions, and had then given notice of his intention to produce the present measure to the house early in this session. But, whatever his feeling of the necessity of the measure might be, he was alive to the paramount necessity of procuring every possible help to enable the house to judge upon the question, and was therefore ready, with the permission of the house, to put off the second reading of the bill to this day fortnight, under an understanding, that if the committee should not report in the intermediate time, the second reading should then be deferred to a more distant day.
Mr. Rose
thought that the committee could not report in a fortnight, nor, possibly, in two months. He was of opinion, that the repeal ought to extend to a great part of the act of James, though not to the whole of its provisions.
Mr. Sheridan
thought it would be a great hardship to tanners, if this clause were to be repealed, whilst the penalties under the other provisions of the act were to be continued. As the suspension act of last session was to be in force only till 40 days after the commencement of the present session, he submitted to his noble friend whether it would not be better that the bill should go into a committee in order to prevent the renewal of the prosecutions on the expiration of the suspension bill.
Mr. Corry
highly approved of the proposal of the noble lord to put off the second reading of the bill, only from time to time, and not for any long period at once. He
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Mr. Whitbread
observed, that the measure had excited great interest in the country, and the manner in which his noble friend had conducted himself with respect to it, would prove satisfactory to the country. He thought that the committee would be able to report in a short time, because the whole of the clauses of the old act were inapplicable to the present time; and trusted that the second reading would not be deferred for any considerable time.
Mr. Grattan
was happy to find that the particular clause in the act of James was to be repealed. When the present bill had been brought forward, it bad excited great alarm amongst the tanners of Dublin, who had done him the honour to send a deputation to him on the subject. If this particular clause were not to be repealed, it would be necessary to have some Irish tanners examined before the committee, which would require time.—The second reading of the bill was put off to Monday se'n night.
[CONDUCT OF LORD WELLESLEY.] Lord Folkestone,
in submitting the motion of which he had given notice to the house, begged to state the reasons upon which he founded that motion. Certain proceedings had been instituted in the last parliament, founded on papers that had been laid before the house, preparatory to the impeachment of marquis Wellesley; which proceedings had fallen to the ground by the dissolution of parliament. The gentleman who had instituted these proceedings, was not at present a member, though he was a petitioner to that house, with confident hopes of being seated in it. The object of his motion was, that the papers relating to the Oude Charge should be reprinted, and be laid on the table of the house as early as possible, as considerable delay had taken place last session on this head. This would be a convenience to all parties. When sufficient time should be allowed for the consideration of the papers, after they should be on the table, if the gentleman who had originally brought the subject before the house, should not be a member, he should certainly bring forward the business himself. He thought it right, however, to state, that he did not mean to push the question to an impeachment. Reserving himself to reply to any objections that should be made to his motion, he moved, "That the papers laid before the
552
Lord Howick
said, that as he now clearly understood that the noble lord moved for the papers, for the purpose of grounding some motion which he intended to bring before the house with all convenient expedition, he could have no objection to the motion. It must be the desire of the house that the noble lord should persevere in the business he had undertaken. He should, however, be glad that the noble lord would give the house some general idea of the line he meant to pursue upon the documents for which he moved, and inform the house whether he meant to bring forward any motion on the Mahratta and Carnatic papers?
Lord Folkestone
thought it hardly fair to expect that he should, in this early stage of his proceeding, be called upon to state precisely the course which he might deem it adviseable to pursue. But yet he was willing to give all the information in his power, wishing it however to be understood, that he would not hold himself bound by what he might now say. His purpose was, as far as his mind was made up, to move a resolution or resolutions, expressive of the opinion of the house as to the conduct of lord Wellesley relative to the nabob of Oude; but without moving for any impeachment or criminal proceeding. With respect to the other charges against that noble lord, he felt a difficulty in answering the question of the noble secretary of state, because he had devoted much less of his attention to them than to that to which his motion referred. As to the charge which related to the Carnatic, a right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) stood pledged to support it, if taken up by any other person; and the opportunity of redeeming his pledge would, he rather thought, be afforded him. Upon the subject of the Mahratta papers, he was disposed to think that they unfolded some transactions which would form good ground for a charge. But upon this point he had formed no resolution, nor would he at present pledge himself to any other than the Oude charge.
Sir John Anstruther
thought it would be extremely satisfactory to the house, if the noble lord could answer more decidedly as to the course he meant to pursue, should the papers be granted; he also wished to
553
Lord Folkestone
found his difficulty increased instead of diminished, by his readiness to give the noble lord every explanation that was in his power upon the subject. All that he would pledge himself to was the Oude charge, and, he supposed, that, about a month or 5 weeks after the printing of the papers he should be ready to make his motion. The Mahratta and Carnatic questions floated at present but loosely in his mind, and he was not Prepared to say how he should act upon them.
Sir John Anstruther
declared himself to be perfectly satisfied with this explanation, and allowed that the noble lord had answered with great fairness and candour every thing which could be expected for him to answer.
Mr. Whitshed Keene
considered, that it was for the honour and dignity of the house that the proceedings of the last session should not now be dropped.
Mr. Bankes
wished for some further explanation. He considered the noble lord as acting as a substitute for Mr. Paull. It that gentleman should succeed in his petition, (how probable or desireable such an event would be he should not say), then the impeachment was not to go on; should he fail, then there were only to be resolutions of the house. He should always disapprove of impeachments for Indian offences, seeing that there was a competent jurisdiction appointed to try them by the act of 1784.
Mr. Sheridan
said, that the motion had his approbation, and he hoped that the noble lord would not consider his having declined to notice the allusion which he had thought proper to make to him as the effect of any disrespectful inattention. The noble lord, in announcing his conditional notice, had expressed his hopes, that the original mover of these papers would succeed in his petition. ["No," said lord Folkestone, "I stated that such was the hope of Mr. Paull."] Oh! that Mr. Paull had such hopes, (continued Mr. Sheridan,) was extremely probable. He was, no doubt, a very active canvasser and a sanguine politician; but he must excuse him (Mr. S.), if he declined to sympathize in his hopes. But, as to the noble lord, he announced hip resolution to pursue a different course from that followed by his
554
Lord Folkestone
replied, that he would not enter into a controversy with the right hon. gent. upon the subject of his former pledges. But he recollected very accurately that the right hon. gent. did promise to bring this question of the Carnatic before the house. As to the grounds upon which he had been induced to abandon that question, he really was not apprized of them. He had heard something of the right hon. gent.'s unwillingness to excite unpleasant sensations among his colleagues in office—that is, in plain English, that he was not willing to lose his place. The noble lord was, however, glad to hear the right hon. gent.'s fresh pledge this evening: for his strenuous and sincere assistance, wherever he would be strenuous and sincere, would, no doubt, be a most important acquisition indeed. The noble lord repelled the idea, that he was the substitute of Mr. Paull or of any man. He was actuated solely by a sense of duty, and even the friends of lord Wellesley
555
Mr. Sheridan
rose again, and observed with some warmth, that no doubt the noble lord wished to have his public conduct ascribed to proper motives, and if he expected to have credit given him for such motives, he should not be so forward to impute improper motives to others. With regard to the motive which the noble lord had thought proper to attribute to him, he would ask that noble lord to state in what part of his public conduct he had ever seen any thing to justify the imputation he had attempted to fix upon him, to shew that he would be induced to abandon his principles to a love of place; or to sustain against him any charge of inconsistency. If the noble lord had had a correct recollection of the proceedings of that house, the noble lord would have known that he did, two years before the present ministry came into place, state the grounds upon which he was induced to decline bringing forward the Carnatic question, at the same time, pledging himself to support any person who should bring it forward.
Mr. Whitbread
said, he thought the noble lord entitled to his thanks, and also to the thanks of the friends of marquis Wellesley, and that they must be satisfied with the very candid manner in which he had brought forward the present motion. He could not, however, agree in opinion with the hon. gent. (Mr. Bankes), that any question of this kind should be referred to the board of Indian Judicature, for he thought it beyond the power of any individual to bring any delinquent to punishment before it. He was, therefore, glad the noble lord had brought forward the present motion.
Mr. Wellesley Pole
thanked the noble lord for the manner in which he had brought forward the business, and for the civility with which he had treated his noble relative. The dignity of parliament re-
556
Mr. Sheridan,
in explanation, said, the hon. gent. had stated his expressions very correctly. When he had first given notice of a motion tending to criminate the Madras government, and lord Wellesley by implication, an hon. gent. had moved for an immense volume of papers, by way of vindication; the effect of which was, to prove lord Wellesley infinitely more culpable than he had thought, the board of controul more culpable than lord Wellesley, and the court of directors more culpable than all. He had said, that the transaction involved great criminality in the Madras government, and particularly lord Clive; in the Bengal government, and lord Wellesley as the head of that government, in the board of controul, and above all, in the court of directors. It was, therefore, very true, that if the Madras government was not guilty in good company, at least it was guilty in very powerful company.
Mr. R. Thornton
said, he had never been of opinion that the criminality that might be found to attach to lord Wellesley's conduct would amount to sufficient ground for impeachment. But he thought it necessary, for the honour of the country, that the noble lord's conduct should be enquired into;
557
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, January 27.
[MINUTES.] Lord H. Petty
gave notice, that he meant on Thursday next, to submit certain Resolutions relating to the Finances of the country; and as he meant to move these resolutions in a committee of the whole house in the most formal manner, he should take the liberty of moving now, that the house should resolve itself into a committee of the whole house on that day, to consider of the Finances of the country. Ordered that the house should, on Thursday, resolve itself into the said committee.—On the motion of Mr. Johnstone, it was ordered, that there be laid before the house accounts of all pensions, granted by the crown in Great Britain from the 1st of April, 1805, to the 17th of Jan. 1807; also accounts of all new offices created, and all salaries increased by fees or otherwise, in Great Britain, in the same period. Similar accounts were ordered for Ireland.—Mr. White presented at the bar the following list of members appointed to try the merits of the petition complaining of an undue election for the borough of Thetford: P. Grenfell, C. O'Hara, R. Ferguson, hon. W. H. Lyttleton, sir R. Williams, G. Anson, J. Hewitt, G. Hibbert lord Primrose, John Fane, A. Shakespeare hon. C. L. Dundas, lord Headley; nominees. S. Whitbread, R. Fellowes.—On the motion of Mr. Herbert, a committee was appointed to enquire into the provisions of the act of James 1. relating to the tanning trade, and to report their opinions upon them to the house. The petitions on this subject were referred to the said committee.
[SCOTCH CLERGY BILL.] The Lord Advocate
of Scotland moved the second
558
Mr. W. Dundas
expressed his approbation of the present bill. The frequency of the augmentations of stipends for these many years past rendered such a measure highly necessary; but more particularly so at present, because since the intimation was lately given in the other house of parliament of a change being in contemplation in the courts of Justice in Scotland, a race had been run by the clergy of that country for augmentations of their stipends. In the parish in which he had some connection, the clergyman had applied for a new augmentation within a few months after having received a very large addition to his former stipend.
Mr. Perceval
observed, that if this was the true state of the case, it formed an argument not only for this bill to suspend the powers of the court of session, but also for the proposed regulations; for if that court exercised its power of granting augmentations blindly and without consideration, it was a good reason why it should be deprived of it. And if the clergy shewed such improper greediness, certainly they ought to be restrained. He was sorry, however, to hear this character of them, for he had before understood that the clergy of Scotland were a most respectable body of men, against whom there was less ground of reproach than almost any other class whatever. The house was not in a situation, however, to decide upon these points, and therefore this could not be any argument in favour of the bill at present. But, in addition to this, it would be hard to stop suits already commenced, and therefore if there were a great many suits of this sort pending, this was rather an argument for not suspending the powers of the court of session.
Mr. W. Dundas
denied his having expressed any distrust of the court of session, or having said any thing disrespectful to the clergy of Scotland. What he said was, that some repose was desirable for the clergy, and he was not singular in this opinion, for the present president of the
559
Mr. Horner
said, that he understood this bill to be brought in, not in the spirit of hostility to the court of session, but the contrary, for it was intended as a relief to them. The power to grant augmentations belonged to the members of the court of session only as commissioners. It was not a business that came under their jurisdiction as a court of justice, but properly of a legislative nature. This business had lately much increased, and it was proper that the court should be relieved. He highly complimented the clergy of Scotland, who were distinguished for their piety and good morals. Their emoluments, he said, were very inadequate to their station, and the duties they had to perform.
The
Lord Advocate
disclaimed any distrust of the court of session, or any disrespect to the clergy of Scotland. It was his pride to be descended from a family, which the clergy of Scotland, who were eminent for their learning, piety, and morals, had always looked up to as their firmest friends. The object of the bill was to relieve the court of session from a press of business of this nature. No less than 149 suits for augmentations had commenced since July last.—After some further conversation, the bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed on this day se'nnight.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, January 28.
[Minutes]
The house proceeded to ballot for committees, to take into consideration the petitions complaining of undue returns for the boroughs of Saltash and Tregony. Soon after Mr. White appeared at the bar with the reduced lists, which were as follow: Saltash; G. V. Vernon, W. Kenrick, W. Manning, sir O. Moseley, lord John Thynne, N. Saxon, J. Rutherford, earl of Euston, sir R. Milbank, lord H. Moore, W. Bonham, A. Robarts, hon. T. Knox. Nominees; J. Leach, J. P. Hill.—Tregony; H. Howard, T. Steele, hon. B. Bouverie, R. Wilson, hon. E. Phipps, M W. Ridley, earl of Yarmouth, sir J. Pulteney, J. De Ponthieu, G. Mills, J. Lemon, T. Shelley, R. A. Daniells. Nominees;
J. Mitchell
[BARRACK SUPPLIES.] Lord A .Hamilton
after a few prefatory remarks on the public interest excited towards the conduct
560
Mr. S. Bourne
seconded the motion, conceiving it to be highly desireable that the house should be put into complete possession of all possible information on this important subject. He wished to call the attention of the house to a paper relative to the barrack department, laid on the table of the last parliament, which must render it obvious to all those by whom it had been read, that the last administration had taken every possible measure to prevent premature issue of public money in the barrack department. This paper proved that the subject had engrossed the attention of government towards the end of the year 1804, when an arrangement was made, that could not well have been entered into at an earlier period. That arrangement went to remedy the evils complained of, to bring the whole of the transactions in question, under the immediate superintendance of the commissary-general to abolish the treasurer, to prevent any expences for building or repairs from being incurred without the knowledge of the treasury, and to produce a variety of other beneficial effects. If the noble lord (H. Petty) had no objection, as soon as the present motion should be disposed of, he would move for the re-printing of that paper.
Lord H. Petty
declared that he should have no objection whatever to the motion of the hon. gent. He allowed that the regulation to which he alluded was extremely proper. It was now under the consideration of his majesty's government, and in all probability the subject would soon be submitted to the consideration of parliament.—Lord A. Hamilton's motion was then agreed to: and Mr. S. Bourne immediately moved, that the copy laid before the house of commons on the 20th of
561
[FREEHOLD ESTATES BILL.] The Solicitor-General
rose to make his promised motion, on the subject of Simple Contract Debts. The injustice of the law in this case was so glaring, and the remedy for that injustice was so obvious, that he should feel it unnecessary to do more than barely to state the object of his motion, were he not aware that a similar measure had formerly been unsuccessfully proposed. By the law as it now stood, a man might contract debts to any amount, not evidenced by bond or other legal instrument; and, dying with sufficient property amply to satisfy those demands, his estate would pass to his heir at law, and his creditor would remain unpaid; or were the owner of such property, not before his death, to make a testamentary assignment, however capricious, to a stranger in blood, that stranger might, if he chose, look with indifference and security on the ruin of the creditors. It was very surprising that this evil should have been so long allowed to exist; more especially when the extent of commerce in this country was considered, and when it was recollected, that all debts on negociable security were merely simple contract debts. Cases had occurred in which persons engaged in expensive commercial speculations, and foreseeing the near and unavoidable approach of great embarrassments, have thought it policy to increase to a larger amount these simple contract debts, and having thus secured property to their heirs, have put a period to their existence, and occasioned an immense loss to their creditors. That an heir should be permitted to enjoy property, in despight of just creditors of that property, although on the faith of that very property credit had been given, was a law peculiar to this country. How did it originate? To resolve this question, it would be necessary to refer to our history; to those feudal times, when every proprietor held his land by military tenure, which rendered alienation of property inadmissible; because, to alienate property would have been tantamount to the desertion of the military standard. Subsequently the usage was less rigorous, and the tenant was allowed, in some degree, to alienate his property. In the 13th year of the reign of Edward I.
562
563
The Attorney General
seconded the motion.
Mr. C. Wynne
expressed his perfect approbation of the object which the learned gent. had in view. He hoped, however, that he would not stop here, but that he would employ the great powers of his mind and his extensive knowledge of the law, in applying a remedy for the creditors of the living possessors of estates, as well as of the dead; he meant by giving additional effect to the writ of
elegit
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, January 29.
[Minutes.]
A ballot took place for a committee to try and determine the merits of the Penrhyn Election petition. The following gentlemen were appointed on the committee:—T. B. Lethbridge, lord Maitland, C. Chaplain, D. Williams, D. Davenport, hon. W. Herbert, sir H. Neale, R. Benyon, W. Orde, G. A. Lee Reck, lord Ebrington, J. A. Wright, J. Lowther; Nominees, H. Leycester, R. Hurst.—Mr. Howard reported from the Tregony election committee, that the sitting members had been duly elected and returned; and also that the petitions of Messrs. Nicholls and Miles were not frivolous nor vexatious.—A new writ was ordered for the borough of Plympton, in the room of sir Stephen Lushington, deceased.—On the motion of Mr. Bathurst, the order appointing a committee to search for precedents of cases of members who had been expelled and re-elected, was rescinded, and a new order made, re-appointing the same committee to search for precedents of cases, touching the expulsion of members, and also of members who, having been expelled, had been re-elected; and to report thereon to the house.
[ABOLITION OF THE SLAVE TRADE,]
Mr. Wilberforce, in adverting to this sub-
564
Lord Howick
was happy that the hon. member had mentioned the subject, thinking that the attention of the new parliament could not be too soon directed to it. He thought the hon. gent. acted right in not having brought forward any proposition on the subject, as the proceeding in the other house would tend to the same end. Their own honour, and the honour of the house, was concerned in instituting some proceeding that would lead to an abolition of a trade, which parliament had declared to be contrary to justice, humanity, and sound policy.
[NEW PLAN OF FINANCE.]
Lord
Henry Petty
Lord Henry Petty
rose, and addressed the committee as follows:—I feel, Mr. Hobhouse, as I naturally and inevitably must, some weight upon my mind, in rising to address you on the present occasion. I feel that anxiety which. the vast magnitude of the subject
565
SUPPLIES.
NAVY (exclusive of the Ordnance Sea Service)
£16,977,837 9 3
ARMY
Great Britain
10,202,967 8 5
Ireland
3,445,130 17 3
13,648,098 5 0
BARRACKS
Great Britain
506,237 0 0
Ireland
469,450 12 6
975,687 12 6
Commissary General's Department
841,526 6 5
EXTRAORDINARIES, as in 1806,after deducting Vote of Commissary General's Department
Great Britain and Ireland
2,758,474 13 7
Total Army
18,223,786 18 2
ORDNANCE
Great Britain, including 422,500
l
3,264,469 4 8
Ireland
479,246 19 7
3,743,716 4 3
MISCELLANEOUS
Great Britain
1,200,000 0 0
Ireland
666,000 0 0
1,866,000 0 0
VOTE OF Credit
Great Britain
2,400,000 0 0
Ireland
600,000 0 0
3,000,000 0 0
Total Joint Charge
43,811,340 11 8
SEPARATE CHARGES OF GREAT BRITAIN.
Deficiency of Malt, 1805
200,000 0 0
Services not voted paid in 1806
280,000 0 0
Interest on Exchequer bills, 1807
1,200,000 0 0
Five per Cents. 1797, to be paid off
350,000 0 0
2,030,000 0 0
Total Supplies
45,841,840 11 8
Deduct Irish proportion of Supply and Civil List, &c.
5,314,275, 0 0
Total to be defrayed by Great Britain
40,527,065 11 8
Deduct on account of Ireland 2-17ths of the above sum of 43,811,340
l
s
d
5,154,275
Deduct also 2-17ths for civil lists and other charges, the same as last year
160,000
5,314,275
566
cite such a degree of interest in your minds, as will procure me that of which I certainly shall stand in need, a patient and unwearied attention on the part of the committee.—Although not quite unprecedented, I am aware that it is an unusual course for the person filling the situation I have the honour to hold, to open to the house, a detailed statement of the supply and ways and means for the year before the loan has been contracted for; but I trust that from what I have to offer this night, I shall be able to satisfy the committee of the propriety, and indeed of the absolute necessity of adopting such a course upon the present occasion. Without therefore detaining the committee by any further preface, I shall proceed to state as the foundation of what I shall have afterwards to submit to you, the supplies and ways and means for the present year, as far as they can now be estimated. Nearly the whole of the former have already been voted by the house.—Here the noble lord made the following statement of the
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prospectively
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Duty on Malt, Pensions, &c.
£2,750,000
Surplus of Consolidated Fund
3,500,000
War Taxes
19,800,000
Lottery
450,000
Exchequer Bills on Vote of Credit
2,400,000
Loan
2,1200,000
41,100,000
569
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570
571
572
573
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580
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581
l.
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582
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584
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593
(Hear! hear!)
RESOLUTIONS.
"That the several duties of customs granted to his majesty by 43 Geo. III. c. 76, by 44 Geo. III. c. 53, and by the 45 Geo. III. c. 39, and also the several du-
594
"That the several duties granted to his majesty on the profits arising from property, professions, trades, and offices, by the acts of 43 Geo. III. c. 122, 45 Geo. III c. 15, and 45 Geo. III. 65, shall be applicable in like manner for defraying the charge of any such loan or loans, so long is the said duties shall continue payable by virtue of the said acts, and no longer."
"That the total amount of any loan or loans to be so raised and charged shall not exceed the sum of 16,000;000
l
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"That any further or supplementary loan or loans which may be necessary for the service of any year beyond the loan or loans so charged as aforesaid on any of the several duties above-mentioned shall
595
"That in consideration of the large amount which by the effect of the foregoing Resolutions will be applicable to the redemption of the National Debt, beyond the sums which, in consequence of any law now in force, would be applicable thereto; it is reasonable and expedient that the provisions of an act 32 Geo. III. c. 55, so far as relates to the redemption of the several public funds created or to be created subsequent to the year 1802, and also that the provisions of an act 42 Geo. III. c. 71, so far as relates to the redemption of the several public funds therein mentioned, should be so altered and amended as may be necessary for giving effect to the principles of the said acts, in such manner as may, under the present circumstances, be most beneficial to the public interests."
"That it is expedient, that whenever the whole of the sums applicable to the reduction of the National Debt, by virtue of any act or acts now in force, shall have accumulated to an annual amount exceeding the amount of the interest payable in respect of all such public redeemable annuities, created at any time previous to the 5th day of January, 1807; as shall then remain unredeemed, the excess of such annual sums above such interest shall be at the disposal of parliament, and may be made applicable to the charge of any loan or loans thereafter to be raised into such other public service as parliament may direct, but in such manner and to such extent only as shall always leave an annual sum applicable to the reduction of the National Debt, sufficient to redeem every part thereof, which existed previous to the 22d day of June, 1802, within 45 years
596
"That whenever the annual sums applicable to the reduction of the National Debt in respect of any loan or loans to be charged as aforesaid in the several war duties before mentioned, shall exceed the amount of the interest payable in respect of such part of the capital stock created in respect of any such loan or loans which shall then remain unredeemed, the excess of such annual sums above such interests shall be at the disposal of parliament in time of peace, but not in time of war, and in such manner and to such extent only, as that an amount equal to the capital stock created by every such loan respectively shall always be redeemed within 45 years from the date of the creation of such loan."
"That whenever the annual sums applicable to the reduction of the National Debt, in respect to any such supplementary loan or loans as aforesaid, shall exceed the amount of the interest payable in respect of such part of the capital stock created in respect of any such loan or loans as shall then remain unredeemed, the excess of such annual sums above such interest, shall be at the disposal of parliament, but in such manner and to such extent only as that an amount equal to the capital stock created by every such loan respectively shall always be redeemed within 45 years from the date of the creation of such loan."
"That for the purpose of ascertaining the due execution of the regulations provided by the above Resolutions, separate accounts shall be kept by the commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt, of all public funds, or securities purchased, or redeemed by the sums vested in them by virtue of any act or acts now in force, or by such sums as shall be vested in them, in respect of any loan or loans charged on the aforesaid war duties, or any of them, or in respect of any Supplementary loan or loans to be raised as aforesaid; provided nevertheless, that the said several sums may be applied indiscriminately in the purchase of any such public funds or securities, as the said commissioners may think expedient."
"That an account shall be taken,
597
"That an account shall be annually taken, and laid before this house, of the net produce of the several war duties aforesaid, and upon an average of three years, from the 5th day of January, 1807, the annual net produce thereof shall have fallen short of 21,000,000
l
Mr. Rose
said, he would not detain the committee at present, as any observations upon this plan would come better afterwards. He only wished to suggest, that the annuities which the noble lord mentioned as one of the means for carrying this measure into effect, had been already actually applied by law to the Sinking Fund.
Lord Henry Petty
observed, that the right hon. gent.'s recollection failed him. It was true, that in 1786 they had been applied as he stated, but in 1802 they had been detached from this purpose. The debate would more properly take place after the Resolutions were printed; and besides the Resolutions, there was a set of Tables illustrative of the different forms and modes in which the plan he had just detailed would operate, and of which, although they could not be regularly laid
598
Mr. Johnstone,
although he allowed that it would be preferable to postpone the debate until after the Resolutions should be printed, yet thought one short observation necessary; because, if the impression made by the speech of the noble lord were allowed to go abroad, the country might be induced to entertain an opinion which could never be realized. The noble lord had displayed great talents and great eloquence, and the display of those talents and that eloquence had been clearly evinced by his leading the house, at such a moment as the present, when the Income tax pressed so hard upon the necessities of the people, and when every alleviation of the burthens imposed by that tax had been so unprecedentedly and so steadily refused, to listen to a detail of the mischiefs which would arise from the payment of the national debt and from the relief from all their taxes. All the noble lord's conclusions proceeded on the supposition that the annual expenditure of the country would not exceed 3S millions. Grant him that, and the rest followed. What had been the consequence of a similar hope held out at the beginning of the war, namely, that the war could be carried on without any increase of debt, by the operation of the Sinking Fund? He was sure that he should not be suspected of derogating from the character and talents of the noble viscount (Sidmouth) then at the head of his majesty's government, for whom he entertained the highest respect; but undoubtedly the result of those expectations was, that in the fourth year of the war, our debt had increased 50 millions on account of England, and 17 millions on account of Ireland; being at an average rate of 17 millions annually. He feared that a similar result would follow the noble lord's calculations. The noble lord had omitted to consider the necessary enhancement that must take place in the price of every article required for the service of the country. He had made no allowance for that which was inevitable, the situation of
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Lord H Petty
alluding to that part of the hon. gent.'s observations which related to Ireland, said, that the hon. gent. must be aware that the finances of Ireland rested on a footing totally distinct from those of England; that the system, therefore, with regard to the war taxes could not possibly at present extend to that country.
Mr. Hiley Addington
observed, that after the able speech of his noble friend, he would not have troubled the house had it not been for the allusion to his noble relation, made by the hon. gent. His noble relation had only said, that supposing the expenditure not to exceed 20 millions, the war might be carried on without additional taxes. This he had before stated in answer to the hon. gent. who had, on a former occasion, brought the same charge against his noble relation.
Mr. Parnell
in the absence of an hon. baronet (sir J. Newport), who had been compelled by indisposition to leave the house, declared, that owing to the exertions made in Ireland during the last year, the revenue of that country had been increased half a million. A few years ago the revenue of Ireland was little more than a million; it now amounted to nearly four
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Mr. Corry,
from the experience he had in Irish finance, was also of opinion that they were in a very promising state. He thought, therefore, that the hon. gent. ought to be more guarded in his expressions, lest he should convey a wrong impression on the public mind. The noble lord, whose statements were so clear, and who had opened a plan which would be satisfactory to all the world, except the common enemy of all, had justly observed, that his system was not applicable to Ireland at present, whatever it might be afterwards.
Mr. Johnstone
meant no reflection on the management of the Irish finances. As to the prediction of lord Sidmouth, his argument still held good, for that noble lord had assumed that the expenditure would not go beyond 26 millions, and the noble lord opposite also assumed that it would not go beyond 38 millions. The grounds of the former prediction had failed, and so might those of the present.—The chairman then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday se'nnight.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 2.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of the archbishop of Canterbury, the thanks of the house were ordered to be given to the bishop of St. David's for his sermon preached before the house at Westminster Abbey, on Friday last; and his lordship was desired to print and publish the same.—Lord Eldon gave notice of his intention of submitting to their lordships a bill for the better and more effectually regulating the practice of the court of chancery, as far as the same related to suitors whose monies were paid into that court to abide the event of its decision; a measure which his lordship said, was of the utmost advantage to the safety of the suitor and the ease of the chancellor, and the want of which he deeply felt when he himself had the honour of filling that office. The lord chancellor quitted the woolsack, and declared that the noble lord should have his sincerest thanks for his attentive consideration of that object; and he assured him,
601
[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.] Lord Grenville
having moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Slave Trade Abolition bill, observed, that those of their lordships who had witnessed his extreme anxiety to carry forward this important measure with the least possible interruption, would readily conceive that he now felt great regret in finding himself under the necessity of proposing a further delay. Unfortunately, however, two of his noble friends, whose sentiments respecting this measure it was important the house should be in possession of, and whose assistance he much wished to have upon the discussion of the subject, were too much indisposed to be enabled to attend the house. He therefore proposed that the second reading should be postponed till Wednesday.—Ordered, and that the lords be summoned for that day.
The Earl of Westmoreland
presented a petition from the ship builders, ship owners, manufacturers, and others of the port of London, against the Slave Trade Abolition bill; which was ordered to lie on the table. A short conversation took place respecting the propriety of hearing counsel in behalf of the petitioners against the bill.
Lord Grenville
suggested the propriety of making some order upon this subject, if it was the pleasure of their lordships to hear counsel, in order that they might avoid the inconvenience which occurred, of having a preliminary discussion of this nature, on the very day on which the measure proposed was to be brought forward.
The Earl of Westmoreland
moved, that such of the petitioners as thought fit, should be heard by their counsel on the second reading of the bill.
Lord Grenville
thought it would be expedient to make some regulation with respect to the hearing of counsel in order to prevent unnecessary delay. As to the propriety of examining evidence, that of course would be decided on, after their lordships had heard counsel. He thought, however, that it would be sufficient to hear one counsel upon each petition, as the greater part of the arguments which the counsel must necessarily touch upon, had
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Lord Eldon
also expressed himself decidedly hostile to unnecessary delay, but at the same time it was of the utmost importance that a subject of this magnitude should be deeply and closely examined, and that the parties whose interests would be affected by it, should be fairly and fully heard.
Lord Hawkesbury
suggested, that the interests of the petitioners might be equally benefited, and the time of the house less taken up, if the petitioners were classed according to the interests of those petitioning, which would be found to be divided into three; namely, the old planters in Jamaica and other islands, the new planters in the island of Trinidad, and the shipping and commercial interests of the ports of this country, and counsel heard for each interest.—After some further conversation, the petitioners were ordered to be heard by their counsel on Wednesday.
[ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE IN SCOTLAND.] Lord Grenville
gave notice that he should, on this day se'nnight, present to the house a bill founded on the Resolutions passed last session, for rendering more effectual the Administration of Justice in Scotland. (See vol. vii. p. 730.)
Lord Hawkesbury
expressed a wish that full time might be allowed the learned gentlemen of the law in Scotland to make up their minds upon such a complicated and important measure before it passed into a law.
Lord Grenville
said, it was his wish that sufficient time should be allowed for the consideration of the subject. He must however remark, that ample time had already been given for its consideration since last session, during which interval there had been an opportunity of obtaining the opinions of professional men of eminence with respect to the details of the measure. If it was meant that an interval of equal, extent should again be allowed, it was evident the measure could not be carried through parliament in the course of the present session. That some measure of this nature should be adopted without delay was, he conceived, of the greatest importance, not only on account of the great defects which were acknowledged to exist in the Administration of Justice in Scotland, but also, on account of the discredit thrown upon that house, in consequence of the great number of appeals from Scotland, and which, from their being so
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Lord Eldon
confessed that he felt the difficulties as well as the advantages of the measure proposed by the noble baron. He had been employed in more Appeal causes than, he believed, any other man now living, and no man could be more convinced of the necessity of such a measure than he was. Not only Scotland but Ireland felt that necessity. He hoped, however, the intended bill would throw more light on the question than the resolutions afforded. At all events, he should most cheerfully contribute all that his experience and humble abilities enabled him to afford towards the advancement of the business.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 2.
[MINUTES.]
Lord Euston, chairman of the Saltash Election committee, reported, that that committee had been prevented from proceeding on the investigation of the matters given in charge to it, on Friday and Saturday last, in consequence of the absence of A. Robarts, esq. one of its members; that this day Mr. Robarts did attend, and the committee had proceeded to business as usual. Doctor Bailey stated at the bar, that Mr. Robarts's absence was occasioned by indisposition; and Mr. Robarts was excused for having absented himself on the above-mentioned days.—Mr. Yorke as chairman of the Weymouth Election committee, reported that the sitting members were duly elected, and that the petition against them was not frivolous or vexatious.—Sir G. Heathcote, chairman of the Maldon Election committee, reported that Mr. L. Hughes, a member of the said committee, had absented himself, on the ground that his presence was necessary in the country, in consequence of the alarming indisposition of his father. Sir R. Williams deposed to his belief of the fact, and Mr. Hughes was excused from further attendance; and the committee empowered to proceed without him.—On the motion of Lord Howick, the thanks of the house were voted to the Rev. Frederick Barnes, the Chaplain, for the excellent sermon preached before the house, at St. Margaret's Church, on Friday. Mr. Barnes was requested to print the same.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the house went into a committee on the acts relating to the mutual Importation of Spirits between Great Britain and Ireland. Mr. V. adverted
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[TREASURERSHIP OF THE NAVY.] Mr. Sheridan,
in rising, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill for the further regulation of the office of Treasurer of the Navy, did not think it necessary to go at length into the grounds of his motion, as the facts which rendered such a bill necessary were within the knowledge of the house. On a recent occasion, doubts had been entertained by the Judges as to the construction of the act of his present majesty, which was intended to prevent the Treasurer of the Navy from making any extraordinary emolument of the public money entrusted to his charge for official purposes. It was necessary to remove those doubts, and though some hesitation had existed as to the best means of removing them, no doubt whatever was
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[IRISH TREASURY BILLS BILL.] Sir John Newport
moved the order of the day, for the house to resolve itself into a committee on the Irish Treasury Bills bill. He hoped that, before the Speaker quitted the chair, the house would indulge him with a few words, for the purpose of clearing up some doubts, with reference to a statement made by an hon. member (Mr. Johnstone) on a former night. In moving to bring in this bill for raising 1,000,000
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Mr. Johnstone
regretted that he was not in the house when the hon. baronet began his speech, but he seemed to intimate that he (Mr. J.) had taken advantage of his absence. He wished the hon. baronet had been present to have heard him. He did not say that Ireland was in a bankrupt state, nor had attempted to convey any such impression. His argument was, that as the Irish revenue was only equal to the payment of the interest of the debt, and to the defraying of civil charges, it followed that she must raise 4,000,000
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Sir J. Newport
knew of no civil charges, on the revenue of Ireland, nor of any, charges beyond the interest of its debt and sinking fund. These amounted to 3,132,000
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Mr. Johnstone
observed, that the hon. baronet's statement confirmed his allegation on the former night. The Irish part of the point charged being 5,300,000
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[THIRD MILITARY REPORT—CONDUCT OF MR. ALEXANDER DAVISON.] Lord Archibald Hamilton
stated, that since he had given notice of his intention to bring forward a motion respecting the Third Re
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The Speaker
here interrupted the noble lord, and said, that if he did not mean to propose any motion, it would be inconvenient and improper to enter upon the particulars in a case of this nature.
Lord A. Hamilton
again rose, and said, that he was sorry to trespass on the attention of the house, but all that he had said, or meant to have said, was intended merely to account for the line of conduct which he had pursued in this business.
Lord H. Petty
was sensible of the irregularity of prolonging the discussion, but hoped he should be excused for taking this opportunity of explaining to the house the proceedings which the treasury had thought it right to adopt upon the third report of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry, which he was not surprised to find had attracted the notice of his noble friend, and of the house in general. No delay had taken place in the steps which the treasury had thought it its duty to pursue; and it would under these circumstances be an imputation that ministers had not used proper activity, if the house should take the prosecution out of then hands, and institute steps of its own. The commissioners of barrack accounts had very properly communicated to the lords of the treasury their opinion, that it was very necessary Mr. Davison should produce his cash account with the barrack-master-general. The lords had in consequence directed the commissioners to call for this account; they had written two letters to Mr. Davison, containing a demand to that effect; no answer had been returned to these letters, and the commissoners reported the fact to the lords of the treasury. The lords of the treasury then called peremptorily on Mr. Davison to produce the account, and Mr. Davison did reply to them, assigning a domestic calamity as the excuse for his delay, and declaring his readiness to give such information as to his cash account as he could give; but stating, that as his cash account was mixed with his other accounts, it was impossible he could give a clear view of it. This answer was referred to the commissioners, who stated upon it that it was not satisfactory; and that if the accounts kept by Mr. Davison were in such a form as to be
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The Attorney-General
then moved, that there be laid before the house the commission appointing Charles Herries, esq. and W. Bragge, esq. commissioners for barrack accounts. He also gave notice, that he should to-morrow move for leave to bring in a bill, to invest the commissioners for enquiring into the barrack accounts with the same powers to examine persons on oath, as the commissioners of army expenditure.
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 3.
[MINUTES.]
A ballot took place for a committee to try and determine the merits of the Shrewsbury Election Petition. The following gentlemen were appointed as the committee:—James Buller, esq., right hon. N. Vansittart, W. Gore, esq., H. Fawcett, esq., lord Folkestone, R. C. Ferguson, esq., H. C. Montgomery, esq., Oswald Markham, esq., R. Sheldon, esq., hon. John Ramsay, R. C. Carew, esq., hon. W. Quin, hon. J. Pierce. Nominees; George Johnstone, esq., Francis Horner, esq.—The Attorney-General, pursuant to notice, moved for, and obtained leave to bring in, a bill for investing certain commissioners for enquiring into the expenditure of the Barrack Department, with powers to examine parties on oath, and to call for papers and accounts. Mr. Rose entirely approved of the measure proposed by the learned gent., and gave notice, that on Thursday next he should move, for a copy of the opinion of his majesty's attorney and solicitor general upon the transactions in the Barrack Department.—Mr. Biddulph renewed his former notice of a motion, for a committee to enquire whether any alleviation of the public burthens might not be procured by the abolition of unnecessary and Sinecure Places for Tuesday next.
[SCOTCH CLERGY BILL.] Mr. Kenrick
presented a petition from the committee of the commission of the general assembly of the church of Scotland, setting forth, "that the petitioners are a committee appointed by the commission of the general assembly of the church of Scotland, held at Edinburgh upon the 19th of Nov. 1806, with instructions to attend to the progress of any bill that may be introduced into parliament founded on the Resolutions lately entered into by the house of lords, respecting the courts of law in Scotland, and to adopt every prudent and temperate measure for maintaining the established rights and privileges of the Clergy of the church of Scotland; and that the petitioners have been informed, that a bill has been brought into the house for suspending, for a limited time, the powers vested in the court of session as commissioners of Teinds by an act of the Scots parliament, passed in the year 1707, c. 9, and for certain other purposes; and as the petitioners are convinced, that the provisions of the said bill will be highly prejudicial to the interests of the Clergy of Scotland, therefore praying, that the
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Mr. Wilberforce
said, he bad not yet had sufficient opportunity of acquiring the necessary information upon the subject, but from the little information he had obtained, he was induced to think that it would be more adviseable to hear counsel before the house should go into a committee on the bill, because then gentlemen would in that case be in possession of the leading objections urged by the petitioners against the bill, and perhaps it would appear that all such might be so modified in the committee, as entirely to satisfy all parties; an object which, whether he considered the character of the learned lord with whom the bill originated, or the great respectability of that class of men who had now petitioned against it, was with him one of no inconsiderable importance.
The Speaker
felt it his duty to acquaint the house, that as the bill in question had been read a second time, it was not the regular usage to hear petitioners by their counsel at the bar, in any stage so intermediate as that in the present instance. When the bill was committed, it would be for the committee to exercise its own discretion; but it was more usual for the house to hear counsel upon the report being brought up.
Mr. Adam
begged leave to observe, that no counsel could be heard in the present stage of the bill, and that were it even not irregular it would be inconvenient, for that he was satisfied the objections of the clergy of Scotland, for whom he entertained the most unfeigned respect, went rather to the apprehended modifications of the bill, than to the principle of the bill itself, for it was neither in the nature, nor was it any part of the object of the bill, to take away any privilege, or to infringe upon any right. He assured the hon. gent. and the house, that nothing was more foreign to the minds of those with whom the bill originated, than any sentiment hostile to the true interests of the Scotch Clergy. The object of the bill was merely to suspend for a limited time, and a very limited time, certain proceedings pending before the commissioners of Teinds, relative to the augmentation of stipends. The court of ses-
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The Lord Advocate of Scotland
said, he should desire no better testimony to the sincerity of his good wishes to the Church of Scotland than that of the Scotch Clergy themselves. Taught, he might say, from his infancy, to hold that respectable class of the community in proper estimation, he did not think that he could be supposed capable of deliberately introducing into that house any measure that could, in the slightest degree, tend to detract from their privileges, or to alienate their rights: so far from it, that he had it in his intention to submit, upon a future day, to that house, some measure for rendering them more secure and permanent. He was, however, as willing as any gentlemen in that house could be, to hear the petitioners by their counsel: he was anxious that no possible channel of information upon that subject should be closed. The principle of the bill was not objected to, but the modifications which the bill should undergo when in the committee. He was persuaded that when the blanks were filled up in the committee, the petitioners would then see the bill in a clear point of view, and feel, as he did now, how groundless were their apprehensions. When he had the honour of submitting that bill to the house, he felt happy in the consciousness of introducing a regulation that he believed would be beneficial to the church of Scotland: but if it should appear otherwise; if there was the least ground to suspect that it might be productive of any consequences injurious to the Scots Clergy, he should feel still greater happiness in immediately withdrawing it.—The petition was then, together with another on the same subject, ordered to lie on the table, till the report of the bill; and the committee on the Scotch Clergy bill was put off to Thursday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 4.
[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL .]
Council having been called in, pursuant to order,
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Lord Grenville
said, that for the purpose he then had in view, it would not be at all necessary to enter into the general question; the simple enquiry was, whether, in the present situation of things, it was or was not expedient to hear the depositions of the witnesses, according to the recommendation of the learned counsel. In his opinion, there could be no ground for this mode of proceeding, unless their lordships thought that this was a subject utterly unknown to them; and that in consequence of the deficiency of all former experience and information, it was necessary to go into a long and formal examination of the matter. This. was not the first time, or the first year, that the enquiry was made before their lordships: it was the 20th year in which it had been brought under their consideration; and there was no one session during that long period in which it had not been, in some form or other, submitted to the investigation of parliament. Could any individual peer suppose, that, to enable him to decide on the principle of this bill, it was expedient to examine how far the local interests of the ship-owners of Liverpool were concerned, and what were their comparative profits in the subsisting intercourse between Africa and the West Indies? This bill was not offered to their lordships, because the capital of no British subjects was employed in the Slave Trade, or because no British mariners were engaged in it; but expressly because the property and persons of the subjects of this realm were engaged in it: and hence it called upon the justice and humanity of their lordships to prevent this misapplication both of the one and the other. Their lordships were not now to determine,
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Lord Eldon
was willing to admit, that, in the instance now before their lordships, the examination of witnesses would not be necessary; but he was anxious to enter his protest against any determination not to hear evidence in a future stage of the proceeding. It was true that this grave and important subject had been long under discussion; but it was not merely expedient to shew that this trade was contrary to justice and humanity. Admitting it to be so, the circumstances, the mode, and the time of its abolition, were proper matters of consideration. What had been the course of proceeding? A noble lord, in the last session, had brought forward Resolutions, which embraced a vast deal more than was comprised in the present bill: those extended to the total abolition of the Slave Trade. He did not believe that the measure now proposed would diminish the transport of negroes, or that a single individual would be preserved by it; at the same time that it would be utterly destructive of the British interests involved in that commerce. This house was always disposed to proceed with deliberation and with justice; and in pursuance of that line of conduct, it had determined not to hear the evidence on this affair in a committee above stairs. He trusted that the same discretion would be now em-
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Earl Grosvenor
was very anxious to do justice to all parties, but thought that to hear evidence in this stage of the enquiry would be useless, and would be a departure from the propriety of their lordships' proceedings. There were many occasions on which it was extremely desirable to hear evidence, especially where the subject was novel: but this was not a case of that sort; much testimony had already been supplied, which was still in the recollection of their lordships. Indeed, so completely had the question been examined, that resolutions had been entered into, coinciding with those passed in another place, that a termination should be put to this nefarious trade. If the learned counsel wished to prove that the great lord Somers was auxiliary in passing certain bills favourable to the trade, or that charters, at various times, had been granted to favour it, no depositions in the form now proposed were at all necessary. If he were desirous of shewing, that after the bill should have passed into a law, the merchants would be ruined, and they must throw themselves upon the liberality of parliament, neither did this require any immediate confirmation; the proper time to adduce such proof would be when the measure, productive of such effects, had become the law of the land. The same might be said as to any evidence applicable to mere speculative propositions. After the resolutions their lordships had come to last year, it would not be consistent with their dignity to enter into such a mode of examining the fitness of their own deliberate determinations.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that with regard
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Lord Holland
perfectly agreed with his noble friend (earl Grosvenor), and thought that the commentary of the noble lord who had just sat down, originated in a misapprehension of the terms employed. The noble earl did not say that the previous opinion declared, however solemnly, should preclude all examination of any future measure connected with the same subject; but he said that when such a determination was made, that the trade was contrary to the broad principles of justice and humanity, it would not become the dignity of the house to enter into minute enquiries into the precise profits, of which the adventurers would be deprived. This was the sentiment expressed by the noble earl, and supported by the general tenour of his speech; and, on his mind, they were
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The Duke of Clarence
was of opinion that the counsel ought not to be allowed to call evidence in the present case. His reason was, that all the evidence necessary to illustrate the interests of the petitioners was before the house. Their lordships had materials enough before them to form their judgment. His royal highness, however, reserved to himself the right of considering whether it would not be necessary to hear evidence on other points.
Mr. Clarke
was then heard as counsel for the corporation of Liverpool. He asked leave to examine Mr. Foster, to shew the interest which the corporation of Liverpool had in the wet docks of that port.—Lord Grenville moved, that the next counsel be heard. Ordered.—Mr. Plumer was called in, and a addressed their lordships as counsel for the planters, &. of the island of Jamaica. He concluded by requesting the permission of the house to examine the earl of Balcarras.
The Lord Chancellor
asked what facts the counsel expected lord Balcarras to prove?
Mr. Plumer
observed, that from the long period his lordship had been governor of the island of Jamaica, he would be able to point out the consequence of the abolition of the West-India colonies.
Lord Grenville
remarked, that it was irregular to examine witnesses at their lordships' bar, who had no facts to state, but were merely called to explain their views and opinions. Facts might he sworn to, but prophecies could not. That kind of evidence was not fit for their lordships to hear, nor for others to give. He moved, that the next counsel be called in.
The Duke of Clarence
did not oppose the motion, but he observed, that since the evidence was last heard on this subject by their lordships, alterations had occurred in the state of the West Indies, which might render it necessary to hear further evidence. There were three principal points of which his royal highness thought it necessary to remind their lordships: 1st, The evacuation of the island of St. Domingo by the British troops, which left it to be considered what effect the state of that island might have on Jamaica. 2dly, the possession of the island of Trinidad, which was, as to cultivation, almost in a virgin state.
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Lord Holland
observed, that, according to the speech of the learned counsel, theorists were those that had stated facts as they were, and then the learned counsel proposed to call men of experience to prophesy to the house the effect which this measure would produce in future.
The Bishop of London
declared, that after the ample evidence which had been produced, particularly in the examinations before the privy council, and the discussions which had already taken place on this subject, he much doubted whether all the evidence which counsel could produce, would be sufficient to invalidate the proofs of the cruelty of this trade. The persons who then gave evidence, were men of high distinction, and unquestionable veracity. He deprecated any delay, which might prove fatal. Every moment was precious; numbers of poor Africans were now perishing in the holds of slave ships, and suffering incredible hardships in the seasoning, which would be increased if this measure were unnecessarily delayed.—The motion was then put and carried. After Mr. Scarlet had been heard,
Lord Eldon
moved, "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, that there might be laid on the table of the house copies of the correspondence between the then secretary of state and the government of Trinidad, in 1799, respecting grants of lands to be made to any persons settled in that island."
Lord Grenville
said, he should not object to this motion, but believed that no such permission would be found to have been granted to the government of Trinidad; as it was in the contemplation of government, at that period, that if the island should remain alter peace to this country, no encouragement should be given to any new and large importation of negroes into that settlement, and that no steps should be taken with respect to that island, which should obstruct any ulterior measures respecting the abolition of the slave trade.—He then moved, that the order for the second reading of the bill be discharged, and that the bill be read a second time to-morrow, clearly wishing it to be understood, that the debate on the main question would then come on.—Agreed to.
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 4.
[MINUTES.] Mr. J. Fane
chairman of the committee appointed to try the merits of the petition complaining of an undue election for the borough of Thetford, reported that the committee had decided that Thomas Creevey, esq. was duly elected, and ought to have been returned; and that James Mingay, esq. was not duly elected, and ought not to have been returned, and that the petition was not frivolous nor vexatious.—Sir G. Heathcote, chairman of the Maldon election committee, reported, that it had determined that B. Gaskill, esq. was not duly elected, and that Charles Western, esq. was duly elected, and ought to have been returned, and that the opposition to the petition was not frivolous nor vexatious.—Mr. Atkyns Wright, from the select committee appointed to try and determine the merits of the Petition complaining of an undue election and return for the borough of Penryn, informed the house, that the said committee have determined, that sir Christopher Hawkins, bart. is not duly elected; that Henry Swann, esq. is duly elected; that John Trevanion, esq., the petitioner, ought to have been returned; that the said John Trevanion, esq. is duly elected; that the said petitions did not either of them appear to the said committee to be frivolous or vexatious; and also that the opposition of sir C. Hawkins to the said petitions did not appear to be frivolous or vexatious. The deputy clerk of the crown was ordered to attend the house to-morrow to amend the said returns.—Mr. Atkyns Wright also acquainted the house, that the said select committee had come to several Resolutions, which they had directed him to report to the house; and he read the report in his place, and afterwards delivered it in at the table, where the same was read, and is as followeth, viz. "Resolved, that it appears to this committee, that sir Christopher Hawkins, bart. has, by himself and agents, been guilty of bribery and corrupt practices, to influence the last election for the borough of Penryn. That John Stona the elder, James Edgcombe, the rev. Robert Dillon, and other persons, being electors for the said borough of Penryn, were engaged in, and parties to, the said bribery and corrupt practices." Ordered, that the said report be taken into further consideration on the 23d instant; that the said report be printed for the members of the house; and that the minutes of the pro-
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[ORDER IN COUNCIL RESPECTING NEUTRAL VESSELS.]
Mr. Perceval
rose pursuant to the notice he had given above a fortnight since, for the purpose of moving for the production of the Order of Council of the 7th of January last, relative to vessels sailing from port to port, such ports respectively being in the possession of France or of her allies;—a paper which, when produced, the house, he had no doubt, would think deserving of their most serious attention. But, however important the subject, and however serious the consideration which the paper deserved, yet he apprehended that he might appear to want an apology for himself, for having given to the motion which he was about to submit to the house, so much pomp and solemnity, by a notice so extended. Because, when it was understood that this motion was merely for the production of a paper which was already before the public, and known to all; which must have been in the possession of every one accustomed to enter a coffee-house, or read a newspaper for more than a month, which, in order to give it
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* See vol. vi. p. 575.
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The Advocate-General (
sir John Nicholls
began with regretting that he did not feel himself better qualified to resist the arguments, in his mind rather specious than solid, which had been advanced by his hon. and learned friend, in favour of the present motion; but, however inadequate he might be to the task, he certainly should not shrink from the undertaking of briefly stating his reasons for thinking the present motion unnecessary, and that the reasons by which it was attempted to be supported were more indebted to the plausible ingenuity of his hon. and learned friend's mode of putting them, than to any intrinsic force in the arguments themselves. The motion, as to the shape in which it at first presented itself, was certainly liable to no serious objection; but he conceived the question for the house to consider, in the present instance, was, what was the real nature of the motion, and what the ulterior proceedings which were to be founded upon that motion, if acceded to; and in this view he had no hesitation in maintaining, that the present motion was altogether unprecedented. He called upon his hon. and learned friend to adduce an instance in which parliament consented to the production of a paper until the circumstances of the proceedings to be instituted upon the ground of that paper had been clearly and explicitly laid down, and as generally understood. Ignorance, at least, was not among the pretences, for it had been admitted by his learned friend, that the paper in question had appeared in the London Gazette, and had found its way to the table of every coffee-house in London. This not only proved that there was no necessity for any additional information upon this subject, but tended sufficiently to retort any idle jokes that the volatile humour of gentlemen might tempt them to cast upon the alledged mysteriousness of his majesty's government. If the publication of the paper now called for, in every daily vehicle of information, was a mark of mystery, and of the wishes of his majesty's ministers to conceal and to suppress
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Mr. Jacob
was of opinion, that this country ought always to assert its claims to its full rights, but, at the same time, he did not think that, in the present circumstances of Europe, it should exercise them to their full extent. If the whole colonial trade was to be stopped, he would ask the learned gent. whether he thought it would be more injurious to France than Great Britain? Above one half of the colonial produce consumed in France was British colonial produce. What inconvenience, therefore, might not result, if the trade that supplied France with that produce was to be put a stop to? If the measure proposed by the learned gent. were to be adopted, the only effect of it would be, that it would be injurious to that already suffering class of the community, the West-India merchants and planters, and irritating to neutrals, and the whole of the remaining civilized states of the world. He was of opinion consequently, that no gound had been laid for the production of the paper.
Lord Castlereagh
rose to make a few observations, just to shew the grounds of the vote he meant to give on the motion of his learned friend. It did not appear to him that any arguments of any weight had been brought forward to resist the able arguments of his learned friend, and certainly no parliamentary objection had been started to the production of a paper, which was already in the hands of every body in the country. The hon. and learned gent. opposite (sir J. Nicholls), who was justly entitled to the confidence of that house and of the country, had not produced any sufficient objection against the motion of his learned friend, and, as that hon. and learned gent. was so fully competent to decide upon this question, he did not suppose that any hon. member who should follow him, would be more successful in the arguments he might bring forward. The right of war he was ready to admit was a prerogative of the crown, but then it was subject to the controul of parliament. He contended that his learned friend opposite was bound to make out a case, to shew that the papers ought not to be produced, before he could call upon him, or his hon and learned friend near him to make out a case of the paramount necessity for its pro-
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Lord Temple
said, if he had had any doubts as to the propriety of granting the paper moved for by the hon. and learned gent. when he had given notice of his motion on a former day, he felt that those doubts would have been greatly removed by the speech of the learned gent. himself, and of the noble lord who had just sat down. Nothing could be more hostile to the constitutional principle than what had been stated by the learned gent. as the ground of his motion; nothing more hostile to the feelings of that house, or to the interests of the country. It had always been his opinion, that it was the duty of that house to watch the conduct of his majesty's ministers; that it was the duty of the house to give them its confidence, until it should see some sufficient ground for withdrawing it, and to carry up advice to his majesty with respect to the great concerns of the government. But this was the first time in which it had been proposed to recommend to his majesty from that house a great measure of warfare. This was the first instance of the house having been called upon to go to the foot of the throne to tell his majesty, that the house, not approving of a particular war measure, recommended another to be adopted in its place. If the house was of opinion that the war had been improvidently conducted by ministers, it was their duty to state to his majesty, and to the house, that circumstance: that they had forfeited their claim to confidence, and to address for their removal from office. But he looked upon the present proceeding as being most unconstitutional as it was most unprecedented, inasmuch as it had for its object to force government to alter the measures it had adopted with respect to the neutrals of our allies, before it could be known what effect they would produce. If the ground of the learned gent.'s motion were admitted, it would prove injurious to this country, and favourable to the enemy. The learned gent. had made an attack on his hon. friends for their opposing this motion. But he could have wished, that the learned gent. had called to remembrance his own conduct, when he (lord T.) and some friends of his who disapproved of the treaty of Amiens, had supported a motion for some papers relating to that treaty. It had then been objected to them, that the treaty was concluded, and no person had given a more decided
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Sir Thomas Turton
expressed his surprise that any reluctance should be betrayed to grant papers, for the production of which the most constitutional parliamentary grounds could be urged: that at least was his opinion, and he did not despair of being able to maintain it. The paper that was moved for, bore upon the face of it every possible mark of imbecility and indecision. All the commercial towns in the kingdom, indeed the whole country, considered it in that light, and lamented the want of that vigour and energy which should characterise the measures of a British Administration. The house was told, indeed, that to push measures to a proper degree of retaliation would be to act in a manner not only injurious to neutral powers, but prejudicial to the interest, of our own commerce. He was at a loss to see any satisfactory proof of such an assertion. In his mind, the real cause of this pusillanimous forbearance, was the fear of offending America, the dread of breaking off the treaty lately pending between this country and the American government. That was the pistol held to the breast of ministers; and this their great anxiety to ward it off. He was happy, however, to learn that ministers did not mean to stop here, and that the present measure was only an experiment. If any thing farther was done, the country would be indebted for it to the motion made that night by the hon. and learned gent. Mr. Perceval); for without such incitement he was sorry to observe, that ministers seemed of themselves little disposed to adopt any thing like vigorous and energetic measures.
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Lord Howick,
although he felt it almost unnecessary to add any thing to what had already been offered upon that side of the question which it was his wish to defend, yet he could not reconcile it to himself to give a silent vote, and therefore as no one among those with whom he had the honour to act, seemed disposed to address the house, he could not forbear to request its indulgence for a few moments. As to the grounds upon which he felt it his duty to resist the production of the document alluded to in the motion, and which grounds were not correctly stated by the mover, he would take occasion to state them shortly to the house. Those grounds were, that unless a parliamentary ground were laid for the production of any public document, it was not usual to grant it; therefore it was by no means a matter of course to accede to such motions. And in opposing the learned gentleman's motion, he felt that he was supporting a constitutional principle of that house, so far as it regarded the regularity of its proceedings. He could not assent to the production of this paper, precisely for the reason which the learned gent. was so often forward to assert when on his side of the house; namely, as he before said, until a parliamentary ground for its production was made out. Why, then, if such an objection were conformable to the usage of the house, and the suggestions of common sense, it was for the house to examine the nature of the ground alleged for such a motion, to enquire whether it would be consistent with its duty, with the interests of the country, and the confidence fairly due to his majesty's government to enter into the discussion. —With respect to the learned gent.'s charge, that he had manifested a disposition to desert the general principles which, while on another side of the house, he was very tenacious of asserting, he challenged the learned gent. to make out that charge. In what instance, he would ask, had he ever maintained that that house, to whom it belonged to enquire, deliberate, and decide, upon every proposition submitted to it, was bound, as matter of course, to agree to the production of any paper of this nature that might be called for? Unless the learned gent. could shew that he had upon some occasion supported this extraordinary doctrine, the charge he had hazarded must fall to the ground. Indeed, the learned gent. himself confessed, soon after he had made his charge, that it was
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Mr. Perceval,
in reply, declared that he must think it impossible that he could have been so completely misconceived by any person who had heard him deliver his sentiments upon the present subject, as he appeared to be by the noble lord who had just sat down. The only way in which he could possibly account for the noble lord having delivered the speech he did, and apparently directed as an answer to him (Mr. Perceval), was, that he supposed his lordship had adopted a mode which was very frequently, nay, generally, adopted by the ablest orators, of considering what objections could possibly be urged against the statements which he had laid down. In making this calculation, he had evidently anticipated the arguments which were to be advanced on this side of the house; he had accordingly formed his answer to these imaginary objections, and the anecdote of Sinbad the sailor his lordship thought to be so extremely applicable to his purpose, that he could not possibly let slip the opportunity of relating it to the house. The hon. and learned gent. then entered into a minute reply to all the observations that had been advanced in support of the refusal to produce the order in council. Several of the assertions that had been laid to his charge, he felt it to be a duty which he owed to himself, most positively to deny. Then, as to the declaration which had been made by a noble earl on the other side (earl Temple), that, if this motion were to have been followed up by another for the removal of his majesty's ministers, that then and then only, he would have given it his support; this really appeared to him to be so extravagant, that it would lead to this conclusion, that parliament would be so circumscribed that, unless the member who called for a paper in some degree implicating the conduct of ministers were prepared immediately to move for an address, praying that such ministers should be dismissed from his majesty's councils; unless this were the case, parliament could never hope to be put in possession of any paper which had a tendency, in the slightest degree, to reflect on the conduct of his majesty's ministers. With respect to another argument, that a measure should not be enquired into, while it was in the progress of its execution; if this inference were correct, then every address which was ever moved for in that house, praying that a concl sion might be put to a war, on account of its circumstances, and its manner of being con-
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 5.
[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.]
The order of the day being read for the second reading of the Slave Trade Abolition bill,
Lord Grenville
rose and spoke as follows:—In stating to your lordships, in detail, some of the arguments on which this important measure rests, I hope I shall be excused by your lordships if I should feel myself obliged, in some instances, to tread over the same ground which has become so familiar to you in the course of a discussion which has lasted for 20 years. After the investigation this subject has already undergone, it is scarcely possible to avoid repeating, in some instances, the same arguments to which we have so long been accustomed. I will, however, my lords, proceed to the discussion without further introduction, and, in the first place, to state that argument which is the principal foundation of this measure, namely, justice. This measure rests upon justice, and calls imperatively upon your lordships for your approbation and support. Had it been, my lords, merely a question of humanity, I am ready to admit that it might then have become a consideration with your lordships as to how far you would extend or circumscribe that humanity. Had it been simply a question involving the interests or welfare of the British empire in the West Indies, it would then certainly have been a question with your lordships how far and in what respect you should legislate. But in this instance I contend, that justice imperiously calls upon your lordships to abolish the Slave Trade. I have heard some opinions urged to the effect as if justice could contain opposite and contradictory tenets. Justice, my lords, is one, uniform and immutable. Is it to be endured that the profits obtained by robbery are to be urged as an argument for the continuance of robbery? Justice is still the same, and you are called upon by this measure not only to do justice to the oppressed and injured natives of Africa, but also to your own planters; to interpose between the planters of your own islands and their otherwise certain ruin and destruction. You are called upon to do justice to your own planters in spite of their prejudices and their fears, and to prevent them by this measure from meeting that destruction which is otherwise certain and inevitable.—Was it, therefore, a trade which was in itself lovely and amiable,
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divide et impera
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The Duke of Clarence
assured their lordships that he had ocular proof of the manner in which the planters behaved to the negroes; he had been in almost every island in the West Indies, he had conversed with the people themselves, and the result of all his observations and all his enquiries was a most clear and positive conviction on his mind, that there was not the least foundation in fact for the charge which had been brought against the planters of ill-treatment to their slaves. The noble lord, among other things, had said, that we should look to the fate of St. Domingo; every man who wished well to the commercial interests of this country, must agree with his lordship, and also hope that their lordships would weigh deliberately in their minds the fate of St. Domingo, before they came to a decision upon this important question. It was not at present competent to England to prefer any claim to sovereignty over that island; and whenever the time of peace should arrive, the French most probably would turn their attention towards the recovery of an island which had been lost to them by insurrection and revolt. No other nation
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The Duke of Gloucester.
—My lords, I cannot find language sufficiently strong to express my abhorrence and detestation of this abominable traffic in human blood; and I think the present question is the most momentous that ever came before your lordships: for what question can be more momentous, or come more closely home to our bosoms and our feelings of humanity, than that which concerns the welfare, the happiness, nay even the lives of myriads of our fellow creatures? Adverting to the resolution of last parliament, now on your lordships' table, declaring that the Slave Trade is contrary to justice, humanity, and policy, can you still allow British subjects to carry on what has been thus solemnly declared to be unjust, inhuman, and impolitic? It has been told us from the opposite side of the house, that the mortality among the slaves has of late years decreased, and that the negroes were flourishing; but I can tell your lordships the real cause of that decrease in mortality: It arises not from the situation of the slaves having been actually ameliorated, but from the encouragement given by some planters to the breed of free negroes, instead of purchasing slaves. They find, from experience, that the former, though, perhaps, the slower method of procuring a supply of labourers, is yet by far the most beneficial in the end to the planters, as it is also more consonant to the feelings of humanity. As to the ruin that will fall upon the merchants engaged in this traffic, if it is put a stop to, I have to observe, that there are many new
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The Earl of Morton
opposed the bill, and recommended to their lordships to pause, and to consider whether the abolition of the trade would not be attended with worse consequences in the view of humanity, than its continuation.
The Earl of Westmoreland
said, that in the British West-India islands the life of the slave was protected by the law as well as that of any other inhabitant. The house had been told that they should prevent the continuance of oppression and cruelty; but the question was not as to how far we ought to exert ourselves to put an end to practices of that nature, but how far any thing that was in our power was capable of effecting that purpose. Portugal, for instance, had no other means of working her mines than by the employment of slaves; could we suppose that she would give it up? indeed nothing had been said about her. Of France there had been something like a whisper that she would relinquish the trade, and it was then inferred that Spain would follow her example. America had promised, but had not yet given up the traffic; and who could answer for Carolina, that it would agree to the resolutions of the other states on that head? If we abandoned this trade, it was certain that some others would take it up, who might not act with so much humanity as the British traders; and with it we should abandon the employ-
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The Earl of Selkirk
could not reconcile to his mind the distinctions made by the noble earl who had just sat down. If he was right in his conception of what had fallen from that noble lord relative to the dispensations of Providence, it went the length of asserting, that no cognizance should be taken of any moral offence, however aggravated or injurious to society. If human duties were thus estimated, and vicious deeds only considered by that criterion, rapine and outrage would be constantly at work, and jurisprudence be rendered incapable of repressing the commission of crimes, by merited punishments. There was also another observation made by that noble earl, with which it was impossible to coincide, unless evidence was produced at the bar, that the climate of the West Indies was unfavourable to the propagation of the human species. In countries where the means of human subsistence were proportionate to the number of inhabitants, the increase of population had always been found progressive. This principle had been acknowledged by all writers on the subject, and had been unanswerably explained in the able work of Mr. Malthus upon population. The noble lord proceeded to discuss the causes which were likely to increase or lessen the black population in the West Indies, and concluded with the inference, that after the proposed abolition, the West-India planters would naturally look to moderate profits, and a progressive increase of the negroes on their estates; whereas, the thirst of immediate gain, and the opportunity of speedily supplying a deficiency of labourers, was, under
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Lord Sidmouth
felt it a painful duty to be obliged to differ from some of his noble friends, particularly on a subject which involved questions of justice and humanity. To the measure itself he had no objection, if it could be accomplished without detriment to the West-India islands; but this he did not think possible, under existing circumstances. Instead, therefore, of abolition at present, he begged leave to suggest, that the best plan would be to throw certain difficulties in the way of the trade, which may finally, and perhaps at no distant period, operate as a bar to it altogether. For this purpose, he would suggest that a tax be laid on every slave imported into any of the islands, gradually raising this impost, till the merchants should of themselves give up the traffic. With respect to the West Indies themselves, he would recommend the advice of that great man (Mr. Burke), viz. that churches should be built for the negroes in the islands, and that they should be instructed in the morality and doctrine of the Christian religion; he would also have them united by the ties of matrimony, as the first step towards civilization, and the future improvement of their condition. With these advantages, and the blessing of being protected by our laws, he thought that the time would arrive for emancipating them.
The Earl of Rosslyn
said, he was convinced that the immediate abolition of this odious traffic would be attended with no injurious effects to the colonies, to the culture of which the negroes already imported were fully competent, if properly treated. Such treatment, it might be said, it was the obvious interest of the planter to give the negroes, and therefore it might be inferred that they experienced it already, and yet that importation became necessary to keep up the supply. This, however, he was prepared to contradict. It was only from the strongest impulse of self-interest, from the most cogent persuasion of necessity, that men of such habits were likely to adopt the practice of humanity. When unable to procure any more negroes, they would feel the urgency of taking care of those they already had. With regard to the statement of the noble earl (Westmorland), as to the various description of persons who concurred in a wish to produce the abolition of this trade, he thought that formed a forcible argument in favour of the
669
Earl St. Vincent
deprecated the measure, which, if passed, would, he was satisfied, have the effect of transferring British capital to other countries, which would not be disposed to abandon such a productive branch of trade. As to the humanity so much contended for, it would be well if noble lords reflected upon this question, whether humanity was consulted by the abolition. If it were, their arguments would be well founded. But, from his own experience, he was enabled to state, that the West-India islands formed Paradise itself, to the negroes, in comparison with their native country. Knowing this, which, upon due enquiry, it was in the power of any noble lord to ascertain, he was surprised at the proposition before the house; and, considering the high character and intelligence of the noble proposer, he declared that he could account in no other way for his having brought it forward, but by supposing that some Obiman had cast his spell upon him. (A laugh).
Lord King
argued forcibly in support of the motion, which, in his opinion, nothing but the sacrifice of every generous and manly sentiment to cold and low calculations of self-interest; nothing but a perversion of justice and humanity, could induce any man to defend. And with regard to the reliance which some persons professed to place upon the equity and feelings of the colonial legislatures, he begged to know if a perversion of justice and humanity were supported in that house, what was to be expected from less enlightened and liberal assemblies?
Lord Northesk
detailed several instance of wanton cruelty practised upon the negroes in the colonies by their masters, who were scarcely under the controul of any law with regard to their conduct. If human treatment were practised towards the negroes, he was certain, from his knowledge of the interior of the colonies, that a suffi-
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Lord Eldon
considered that the abolition of the British traffic would by no means imply that of the Slave Trade in general, which could still be carried on by other states. The present had been called a measure founded on justice, humanity, and policy. If it were so in justice and humanity, he would agree that it was so it policy. But it was not clearly made out that it was so, in justice and humanity. It was, however, necessary that it should be shewn that this measure would promote the views of justice and humanity more than they were at present promoted. The learned lord then entered into a review of the measures adopted by parliament respecting this trade, which, he contended, had been sanctioned by parliaments in which sat the wisest lawyers, the most learned divines, and the most excellent statesmen; and he declared, that on this subject he had always differed from his illustrious friend Mr. Pitt. He adverted to Mr. Locke, lord Somers, and others, and they did not think it wise or politic to oppose it.
The Bishop of Durham
supported the abolition, and considered the Slave Trade as wholly inconsistent with the spirit of the Christian religion. He reminded the house of the story of Themistocles, who proposed a measure by which the enemies of the Athenians might be destroyed, without hazard to themselves; which was referred to Aristides the Just: it was to destroy their fleet, while they thought they were in safety. Aristides said to the Athenians, it could be done; but that it was unjust: upon which the people, with one voice, said it should not be done, for that the Athenians would not owe their safety to injustice. The British people should not be surpassed by the Athenians in a love of justice; and therefore, if there were any profits to us, in the continuation of the African Slave trade, we should forego them. We were a people more favoured by Heaven than any other nation had been from the commencement of time to the present hour; but we should beware how we forfeited the protection of Providence, by continual injustice; for if we did, we should look in vain hereafter
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The Earl of Moira
took a general view of the subject; he thought that the evidence upon the table of the house must be sufficient to convince their lordships of the necessity of abolishing this sanguinary traffic. If noble lords were not satisfied with this evidence, he referred them to Holy Writ, he referred them to that great work of our forefathers the Old Testament, and that great Commentator upon that work, whose maxim was, "Do unto others as you would they should do unto you."
Lord Hawkesbury
admitted that the slave trade was a great political evil, and that it was desirable to put an end to it; but considering that slavery had been permitted under the Jewish dispensation, that there was no express prohibition of it in the Christian; that it was a condition of mankind which many great and wise men in all ages had sanctioned, he was not prepared to say, that to allow slavery was a crime. Nevertheless, combining slavery and the slave trade, he thought that it was matter of regret the latter had ever existed, and that it was desirable to abolish it. The question was, however, whether it could be abolished by the proposed measure, and whether the consequences would be beneficial to the nations of Africa? He contended that the Slave Trade in Africa had subsisted before Europeans had entered upon the trade, and he doubted whether their withdrawing from it would put an end to the evil, or tend so much as was argued to the internal peace and improvement of Africa. He denied, however, that our withdrawing from it would abolish the trade; and if it only shifted hands, the change would be to the disadvantage of the negroes, and of the cause of humanity.
Lord Holland
said, that the arguments of the learned lord (Eldon) respecting the opinions of former statesmen and legislators, lord Somers, Mr. Locke, &c. would, in their application, put a stop to all improvement. But could it be supposed that so great and wise a man as Mr. Locke, after reading the evidence which lay on the table respecting the slave trade, would give it his sanction? The evil was now exposed, and could not be defended. As well might we be told that the Reformation was unnecessary, as it might be said, could a reverend prelate be more wise than sir T. More, or more learned than Erasmus. It was in vain, therefore, to say that the slave trade was justified by the authority of those whose attention had never been
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The Earl of Suffolk
said a few words in support of the bill; after which their lordships divided,
Contents 72; Proxies 28…
100
Non-Contents 28; Proxies 8
36
Majority
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 5.
[MINUTES.]
The house at its meeting proceeded to ballot for committees, to try and determine the merits of the Petitions complaining of the late returns for the county of Norfolk, and the borough of Plymouth. The following were the committees appointed: For Norfolk, Henry Baring, esq. Mark Wood, esq. lord Morpeth, T. W. Plummer, esq. A. Atherly, esq. C. Western, esq. R. T. Stuart, esq. Henry Parnell, esq. Robert Williams, esq. Charles Adams, esq. J. Kingston, esq. Wm. Praed, esq. Owen Williams, esq. Nominees, G. H. Rose, esq. Charles Dundas, esq.—For Plymouth, J. Barham, esq. H. Willoughby, esq. Wm. Roscoe, esq. R. B. Robson, esq. E. Desborough, esq. Wm. Cavendish, esq. John Calvert, esq. hon. W. Hill, Lord Rancliffe, hon. Wm. Maul, Joseph Crips, esq. James Brogden, esq. T. Godfrey, esq. Nominees, Wm. Cartwright, esq. Jonathan Raine, esq.—Ordered, on the motion of lord Howick, that the order for calling over the house be renewed for Tuesday next: also, that the names of such members as shall be absent on that day be reported to the house on such day as the house should direct, and that those for whose absence a sufficient excuse could not be assigned, should be taken into the custody of the serjeant at arms.—The Speaker acquainted the house, that the Worcester Petition having been appointed to be taken into consideration on Tuesday last, at half past three o'clock, and W. Gordon, esq. the petitioner, not having appeared pursuant to the act, within one hour after the petition was ordered to be taken into consideration, he had certified the recognizances in this case to his majesty's court of Exchequer.—Mr. Simeon gave notice that, in consequence of an extraordinary circumstance that had taken place in the Maldon Election Committee, he should, on a future day, move for leave to bring in a bill to explain and amend the Grenville Act respecting election committees. The hon. member was proceeding to detail the grounds of his motion, when the Speaker begged to remind the hon. gent. that the house confided all matters touching Election Petitions to its committees, and that, according to the practice of the house, the hon. gentleman ought to confine himself to stating the object of his motion. Mr. Simeon was aware, that the decision of se-
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[THIRD MILITARY REPORT—CONDUCT OF MR. ALEXANDER DAVISON.] Mr. Rose
in rising to make his proposed motion for the production of the opinion of the Attorney and Solicitor General, relative to the case of Mr. Alexander Davison, disclaimed all idea of imputing any neglect to the government in the performance of its duty. The principal difference between himself and the noble lord (H. Petty) was this. The noble lord was for leaving the matter to the management of the executive government. He thought that where a parliamentary commission was appointed to examine into the public expenditure, the prosecutions ought to be conducted at the instance, and under the direction of this house, rather than be left to the government. He had no intention whatever to convey th idea, that blame rested any where. He did not for a moment suppose, that the executive power had not done its duty in this affair, nor did he impute to it any wish to protect delinquen-
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Lord Henry Petty
said, he should not follow the right hon. gent. through all the points he had touched upon, but he could not but notice the position which had been laid down by him, that this was of that class of prosecutions which ought to be conducted under the authority of that house rather than by the Treasury. He might state without fear of its being controverted, that it was the duty of the Treasury, when they discovered any frauds to have been committed, to take measures for their punishment, and to secure the public interests. If the Treasury did not act in this manner, they would merit the censure of that house; and if the Treasury should omit to take such measures, it would become the duty of that house to take such steps as might appear necessary on the occasion. But he should ask, what convenience would result from the house instituting a prosecution, after a proceeding had been adopted by the Treasury? The only effect of granting the paper moved for by the right hon. gent. would be to convey information to the defendant, of the strong and weak parts of the evidence against him, whereby he might be enabled to frustrate the objects of the prosecution, by secreting such parts of the evidence as might be necessary to supply any deficiencies at present existing. On the contrary, when the proceedings were carried on by the Treasury, no such information could be acquired before the proper time, and the ends of justice would thereby be secured. This was an illustration of the doctrine which he had stated, and when the right hon. gent. was aware of these circumstances, the noble lord had no doubt he would consent to withdraw his motion.
Mr. Perceval
agreed that the motion ought to be withdrawn. He differed from his right hon. friend with respect to the practice of the house; for, if the prece-
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Mr. Rose
said, that after what had fallen from the noble lord, he would certainly, with the leave of the house, withdraw his motion.
Lord A. Hamilton
explained, that the reason why he had the other night withdrawn his motion on this subject was, that he thought it would be attended with great inconvenience to interfere with the steps that had been already taken by the treasury.
Lord H. Petty
begged it to be understood, that no prosecution had as yet commenced, for the reasons which he stated on a former night. It was thought more advisable to postpone any prosecution till it could be seen what further lights would be furnished by the production of Mr. Davison's cash account with general Delancey.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 6
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of the archbishop of Canterbury, the bishop of Exeter was desired to preach before their lordships in Westminster Abbey, on Wednesday, the 25th instant, being the day appointed for a General Fast.
[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.]
The house resolved itself into a committee on the bill for abolishing the Slave Trade. The preamble having been postponed,
Lord Grenville
said, with respect to filling up the blanks in the bill, that the time which he intended to propose as the period for the abolition of this trade, might, perhaps, appear somewhat at variance with that eager desire which the house had expressed for the abolition, but the gratification arising from the near pros-
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Lord Hardwicke
wished to know in what light the Black Corps in his majesty's service were to be considered, whether as freemen or slaves.
Lord Grenville
replied, that he should have always considered them as freemen; but that at all events particular provision would be made for that case in the Mutiny bill for the year.
Lord Redesdale
hinted, that the bill, as it was now worded, might extend to our settlements in Asia Minor, and in the East Indies.
Lord Grenville
observed, that no slaves had been imported to either for some time. He was aware, however, that both in the East Indies and in Asia Minor, there were many Christians who kept a number of slaves, but he did not conceive that this bill could be construed to extend so as to injure them in their property. He would, however, again consider the subject, and, if necessary, a clause to prevent the effect of any such construction might be proposed.—The blanks having been filled up, the noble lord proposed a proviso, allowing such vessels as should have cleared out from the ports of this country for Africa, previous to the 1st of May next, and should not have been able to complete their lading
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Lord Hawkesbury
declared his disinclination to enter into any discussion of the merits of the measure, after the opinion which a great majority of their lordships had, on a former occasion, pronounced. But, with the conviction he entertained of the impropriety of introducing abstract principles into the preamble of the bill, he conceived it his duty to submit to the Committee an amendment, which should exclude the terms "justice and humanity," and confine the necessity of abolishing the slave trade, solely to the inexpediency of its continuance. He could not see what objections the warmest advocates for the abolition could have to the amendment. The preamble, as it then stood, unnecessarily mooted a point, on which a great difference of opinion existed, and which, if suffered to be made a part of the law of the land, and of the colonies, might be productive of mischievous and fatal consequences; of those consequences which the noble baron, who introduced the bill, so strongly deprecated; he meant any ill-grounded conclusions which the Negroes in the West Indies might infer, relative to their emancipation, as connected with the measure of abolition. Indeed, it was a conclusion natural for men in their circumstances to make, when they found the law of the land declaring that system unjust and inhuman, by the operation of which they were detained in a state of slavery. Some allowance should also be made for the feelings and characters of those who had embarked their property in the African trade; and as the end was obtained, it was exceeding even the practice of hostile parties, to continue and promulgate an imputation, which nothing but the inability of succeeding in the object could justify. It might be objected, that the resolutions of the two houses of parliament had already expressed the same opinion; but he begged leave to state a marked difference in the two cases. The resolutions of the two
680
The Earl of Carnarvon
assured their lordships, that, with the feelings which actuated him, and the views he entertained of that unjust and execrable traffic, he could by no means acquiesce in the amendment of the noble lord. To palliate guilt and compromise injustice he never would consent, nor should he think of shrinking from the exposure of a system, as illegal as it was iniquitous. The laws of the country equally extended to every part of the British empire, as well on the high seas as to the colonies; and if the necessity of cultivating the waste lands of the West India islands was a sufficient plea for the violation of justice, upon equal principles of propriety, the peasantry of this kingdom might be dragged from their homes, to till and labour in the inclosure of waste lands. (A cry of "Order.") Noble lords might accuse him of not being in order, but he felt he was acting perfectly orderly, and, therefore, should continue to exercise his own judgment, in exposing a system of oppression and rapine, which, if suffered to continue, would be ultimately extended even to this country.
—"Malum quo non aliud velocius ullum; Mobilitate viget, viresque acquirit eundo; parva menu primo: mox sese attolit in auras, Ingrediturque solo, et caput inter nubila condit."
The Lord Chancellor
observed, that the expression in the preamble having been admitted by the noble lord (Hawkesbury) to be true, it followed that it ought to be retained. What was the objection of the noble lord last night? It was, that this trade ought not to be abolished, except in conjunction with foreign powers, and now the noble lord, by his motion, would take away the only ground upon which we could ask other powers to co-operate in the abolition
681
Earl Morton
thought the adoption of abstract principles in a legislative act, was inconsistent with the wise and wary language which their ancestors had used on such occasions, and seemed rather like an adoption of that mode of expression which had been so repeatedly used in modern France.
Earl Stanhope
approved highly of the expressions in the preamble which had been objected to. He thought, however, that this bill would not do much towards the abolition of the slave trade without the adoption of adequate regulations in the colonies. It might, perhaps, be proper to enact, that every slave imported into the islands contrary to law, after the time limited for the abolition of the trade, should
ipso facto
Lord Redesdale
expressed apprehensions that dangers would arise from retaining these expressions in the preamble, and called the attention of the house to the dangerous consequences which resulted in France from the adoption of abstract principles in legislation, which, however true in themselves, were applied in a manner that produced confusion and anarchy in that country.
The Earl of Lauderdale
maintained that the words which it was proposed to leave out, were the most essential words in the bill. How was the great object of general abolition to be attained, if it appeared upon
682
The Duke of Montrose
declared himself to be a friend to the abolition, but thought at the same time, that it would be better to leave out the words objected to.
Lord Holland
said he could not clearly understand the distinctions which had been attempted to be drawn between justice and expediency. He was of opinion, that if the subject was fully considered, those distinctions would be found to center in the same point. It was not a distinction between justice and expediency with respect to abolition and emancipation; on the contrary, whilst on the one hand it was essentially just that the trade should be abolished, it would on the other be injustice to the slaves in the islands to give them emancipation, because it could only tend to their own injury. He was surprised to hear the noble and learned lord (Redesdale) condemning the introduction of abstract principles into legislation. What did our Bill of Rights contain but abstract principles? He was decidedly of opinion that the words ought
683
The Duke of Clarence
urged the danger which might result from retaining these expressions. When the negroes in the islands found that no fresh importations took place, they would naturally inquire the cause, and when they found that the trade was abolished, and declared to be contrary to justice, humanity, and sound policy, would it not have a material effect in their minds with respect to their own situation, and the means by which they were brought there?—The committee then divided on the question, that the words objected to stand part of the preamble. Contents, 33; non-contents, 10; majority 23. The house resumed, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 6.
MINUTES.]—Sir Ralph Milbanke,
Chairman of the Saltash Election Committee, informed the house, that the said committee Met this morning, pursuant to their adjournment of yesterday, and G.V. Vernon, esq. one of the members of the said committee, not attending, the committee continued to sit for one hour, and then adjourned till tomorrow. Ordered, That the said Mr. Vernon do attend this house, in his place, upon Monday next.—Mr. Johnson, from the office of the chief secretary for Ireland, presented an Account of the Receipts and Disbursements of the commissioners of Public Accounts in Ireland, for the year ending the 5th of January 1807. Ordered to he on the table.—Ordered, on the motion of Mr. Bathurst, that the committee appointed to search for precedents touching the expulsion of members, have power to send for persons, papers, and records.—A new writ was ordered for the city of Worcester, in the room of Henry Bromley, who since his election had accepted the Chìltern Hundreds.—Lord Temple brought up the Cape of Good Hope Trade bill, which was read a first time.—The house, on the motion of Mr. Vansittart, resolved itself into a committee of supply, and resolved that a sum not exceeding 1,200,000
l
684
[PETITION RESPECTING THE HAMPSHIRE ELECTION.] Mr. Ashton Smith
rose to present a Petition to the house from several respectable Freeholders of the county of Hampshire, complaining of the improper interference of persons in office for the purpose of influencing the last election for the county of Hampshire.
Mr. Tierney
wished the hon. gent. would state more explicitly the nature and object of the petition he was about to present.
Mr. C. Wynne
could not vote for the admission of a paper, of which he was, as yet, entirely ignorant.
The Speaker
acquainted the hon. gent. that in presenting a petition he was bound to open the matter thereof to the house, and also to state the prayer of the petitioners. If the petition contained a prayer, it undoubtedly was entitled to the attention of the house; but, if not, the house could not receive any statements the petitioners might think proper to make, as a petition claiming its consideration.
Mr. Canning
observed, that the petition contained a statement of a grievance, complained of by the subjects, and as such, was entitled to the consideration of parliament.
Mr. Broderick
intimated, that the petition complained of a breach of the privileges of that house, and contended, that it ought to be received.
Mr. A. Smith
stated, that the petition would not be found defective in any of the usual forms, and took upon himself to affirm, that it did contain a prayer: an alledged grievance was complained against, and it was prayed that that house would interfere to remedy or to remove it. The Petition was then read, and was as follows:—'That the petitioners think it their duty to represent to the house, that, previously to the late election of knights to serve in parliament for the said county, measures of the most unconstitutional nature were resorted to by persons in situations of high trust and authority in different departments of the executive government, for promoting the success of Thomas Thistlethwayte, esq. and the hon. W. Herbert, two of the candidates, whose pretentions were favoured by his majesty's ministers, in violation of the dearest rights of the petitioners, and as they humbly apprehend, of the privileges of the house; that, among other instances of such interference, they think it
685
Mr. Ashton Smith
then moved, that the petition do lie on the table, and at the same time gave notice that he should submit a motion to the house on the subject, on this day se'nnight.
Lord Temple
gave his full and unqualified consent to the motion that this petition
686
Mr. Canning
apprehended that when any petitioners resolved on presenting a petition to that house, complaining of a specific grievance, they had a right, as well as the hon. member who was to present it, to choose the time that might appear to them to be most convenient or favourable for that purpose.
Mr. Tierney
certainly thought that, if the petition was intended as a party question, it might have been desirable for the framers of it to have public opinion for some time previously directed to the subject. But if the petition was really intended to bring the fact of a breach of the privileges of that house under the consideration of parliament, no time should have been lost in presenting it. These gentlemen. who knew of such transactions as amounted to a breach of the privileges of that house, should not have suffered those unworthy ministers of the crown to remain so long exempt from the exposure which their conduct merited. The house, however, would hereafter be able to judge of the motives of the petitioners in keeping back the petition, and also of the motives of those gentlemen who might since have been persuaded to give their support to this proceeding.
Mr. Perceval
said, he should not impute to the right hon. gent. who had just sat down, any party motive for the observations he had made (a laugh); but he was clearly of opinion, that the persons who had signed the petition, and the gent. who had undertaken to present it, had a right to chuse the time that appeared best to them. The right hon. gent. no doubt, would have been better pleased if the petition had been presented on the first day of the session, because then it would have been liable to an objection, if it had been proposed to take it into consideration previously to the last day for presenting
Elec-
687
Mr. C. Wynne
contended, that it had never been insinuated from his side of the house, that the charges in the petition were of a slight or unimportant nature. He appealed to the recollection of the house whether they had not, in every instance, been admitted to be of the last importance to have brought forward. The charges contained in the petition would be highly important if proved; they would also be important if not proved, as he trusted would be the case, because they would then fall back upon the heads of those who had given birth to them.
Mr. Hurst
did not think it of the smallest moment whether the petitioners were influenced by a sense of duty, or by sinister motives; they took upon them to bring against certain persons certain charges, and he rejoiced that it would be now soon decided how far the charges were warranted by proofs, from the rumours that had been so industriously circulated, not alone through the county concerned, but through the country. He was glad that the petition had found its way into that house, and that those rumours would be for ever silenced by the paramount decision of the people's representatives, for he had no hesitation in saying that he anticipated with confidence an issue honourable to the parties so calumniated.
Mr. Rose
was not willing to question the impartiality of the hon. member who spoke last, but as it had been urged as an objection to the petition, the time of its being presented, he would beg leave to set gentlemen right upon that head. Parliament had met this session at a very unusual time, when few country gentlemen were able to attend. It was desirable to have as full an attendance of that description of members as possible on the discussion of this subject, and it was not till the present period that many of them had attended in the house. As to the motive for bringing forward the petition, he was sure the hon. gent. opposite could not impute any to the hon. member, who had presented it, that he could not fully justify.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
highly approved of the candid and honourable manner in
688
Mr. Fremantle
adverted to the state of the house, and asked whether it could be considered such an attendance as the hon. member had thought desirable? As to the petition, he was extremely gratified that it had been produced, and gave his full assent to the motion, that it should be laid upon the table. He was confident that he should be able to shew, that the circumstances of the case had not the bearing represented in the petition, when the question should come to be discussed. He had only one word to add respecting the manner in which this proceeding had been conducted. He had always understood it to be the practice in that house, when any charge was to be brought forward against a member, that some intimation of the proceeding was communicated to the individual concerned. In this case, not a word had been expressed to him on the subject, and though rumours might have reached him respecting the allegation of the petition, it was not till he came down to the house this day, and the hon. member had proposed to present the petition, that he had any certain information upon the subject.
Mr. Sturges Bourne,
in explanation, said, that in speaking of the necessity of a full attendance, he did not mean any allusion to the numbers then in the house. The petition was not then to undergo consideration, but now that the members in general had come up to their parliamentary duty there was a certainty of a full meeting whenever this petition was to come before the house.
Lord Howick
thought, that as the charges alledged in the petition were of the most weighty kind, so did they exact from that house the strictest scrutiny, and the most mature consideration. They went to question the honour of that house, and the freedom of the country; for that house could not be honourable, if constituted by the undue influence of power and corruption;
689
[MASSACRE AT VELLORE.] Mr. Howard
rose for the purpose of putting a question to the right hon. the president
690
Mr. Tierney
was not at all surprised at the anxiety felt by the hon. gent. For some time past rumours of the transaction had been in circulation, but unhappily he was unable to give any answer to the hon. gent. on this subject, as no authentic accounts had yet been received either by the Court of Directors or the Board of Controul. But he would assure the hon. gent. that, as soon as the accounts should arrive, they would be laid before the house, so far as they could consistently with a proper regard to the public interest. What steps would be taken, or what instructions sent out, it it was not possible to state before the official accounts should arrive. But the hon. gent. could surely not think that the officers now on the point of setting out ought to
691
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February, 9.
[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.] Lord Walsingham
brought up the report of the bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade.
Lord Grenville
stated. that it had been found more adviseable to fix the same period in all the clauses of the bill for the Abolition of the Trade, namely, the 1st of May next, and to introduce a proviso, allowing vessels employed in the trade which had cleared out from the ports of this country for Africa previous to that day, to complete their cargoes in Africa and trade with them to the West Indies until the 1st of January 1808, at which period the trade should be finally abolished. He also thought it advisable, in order to obviate any objection with respect to the construction of the general words of the bill, to introduce words for the purpose of limiting its operation to Africa, the West Indies and other parts of America. His lordship proposed amendments in the clauses of the bill to the effect he had stated, and some verbal amendments, which were all agreed to. The proviso introduced on Friday was struck out, and another proposed by the noble lord, allowing vessels which should have cleared out from the ports of this country for Africa previous to the 1st of May next to take in their lading in Africa, and trade with their cargoes to the West Indies until the first of January 1808.
Lord Redesdale
suggested, that as the loss of a vessel or other unavoidable accident might prevent the arrival of a cargo from Africa in the West Indies within the time limitted, it might be adviseable to make an exception for such a case.
Lord Grenville
said, that the period of the first of January, 1808, had been fixed upon for the purpose of making an amply sufficient allowance of time for the voyages to be completed. He had no objection however, to the introduction of words for the purpose of providing for the occurrence of circumstances such as those mentioned by the noble and learned lord.—After a
692
The Bishop of London
rose and spoke to the following effect: "My lords, I cannot suffer this opportunity to escape, without declaring my sincere and ardent satisfaction at the decision of your lordships. My lords, you have performed a great and signal act of humanity, you have executed a great legislative measure of relief to an oppressed and degraded population. The reasons and arguments which many noble lords have thought proper, with such eloquence and perspicuity, to introduce, have been felt by me with their fullest force; but there is one of such an important nature and in which such serious interests are involved, that I trust I shall be excused for submitting it to your lordships, more particularly as it has not been adverted to in any previous discussion. The moral and religions consequences which may be expected to accrue from this salutary and humane act of legislative justice, are many and extremely desirable; for hitherto they have been entirely neglected—neglected, not by the clergymen in the respective islands, but it is a neglect naturally arising out of the unjust and unchristian system, which has been acted upon in the colonies. Worked all day upon the estates of their owners, the negroes have been forced to consign every other moment of their unhappy existence, to the cultivation of their own little spots of land, and even on the Sabbath, shame to say! a market was held for the specific purpose of enabling the slave to purchase his Sunday dinner. The number of clergymen has also been too few, compared with the great population of the blacks. In the island of Jamaica, where there are from 2 to 300,000 negroes, there are only 20 clergymen, whose time is in a great degree taken up in the performance of their numerous duties to the Whites. There is another beneficial consequence which will follow from the accomplishment of the present bill; namely, the great increase of population, which the good treatment of the negroes will produce, independent of the
693
Earl St. Vincent
took this last opportunity to enter his protest against the adoption of the measure, the consequences of which he was persuaded, would prove fatal to the best interests of this country. As soon as France made peace with this country (and she would hasten a pacification in consequence of this measure), her first object would be to get compleat possession of the Slave Trade, and if she succeeded in that object, it would soon appear that she had got possession of an engine that would work the downfall of the naval superiority of this country. Such was his conviction, and he uttered it now for the last time. His Lordship then withdrew immediately from the house.—The different clauses were then agreed to, and the bill was ordered to be engrossed, and read a third time to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Monday, Feb. 9.
[MINUTES.] Mr. Barham
reported from the committee appointed to determine the merits of the Plymouth Election Petition, that sir C. M. Pole and Thomas Tyrwhit, esq. had been duly elected; and
694
695
l
[GREENVILLE ELECTION ACT.] Mr. Simeon,
pursuant to notice, rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend certain parts of the said act. He was willing to yield every tribute of just praise to the act in question, which went in some measure to immortalize its author; great, however, as were unquestionably its merits, it was yet, like all other things human, not perfect. The object of the proposed bill would be, to remove perhaps its only imperfection. In a late case (the Maldon petition) the chairman of the committee had not only a casting voice, but a double one. In mentioning this, it was far from his wish or intention to insinuate the slightest reflection upon the gentlemen who composed that tribunal, but what occasioned a double vote in that committee, might produce the same effect in any other. The unavoidable absence of one of the 15 members might produce a parity of voting, and thus involve the committee in this dilemma; they must decide upon, the issue before them, or they must not; if they did not decide, justice slept; if they did, one of the 14 had a double vote. Besides, as the chairman of such committees was generally a man whom the rest of the committee had preferred for some superiority in certain qualifications, for talents, good sense, address, arising from habits of business, &c. there might be found in some committees men of that diffident cast of mind that would induce them to look rather to the decision of that chairman, than consult the suggestions of their own under-
696
Mr. Bankes
said, that the cause of complaint was of such a kind, and the mode which the learned gent. meant to propose for its redress, was such, that he thought the law was preferable as it now stood; he should therefore oppose the motion upon the present occasion, as he thought it was needless to encourage a bill to be brought in, which was so likely to be thrown out in some future stage. The case stated, was one which very seldom occurred. The act had put it into the most convenient of all forms, because the decision was left to be determined by the casting or double vote of the chairman; who was naturally looked up to on account of his abilities, integrity, and other qualifications which distinguished him. The learned gent. seemed to imply, that this very man who was so held up to notice, on account of the necessary qualifications, should be the only one who should be deprived of the ability to give a double vote, should it happen to be necessary. He saw no remedy in thus taking away the vote of the chairman. The general maxim of law was, that there should be an end put to a dispute by the judicature to which it was originally submitted, and therefore it was better to take the decision of the committee as at present constituted, than that it should be suspended altogether. The chairman was bound Jo perform the same duties, and to take the same oath, as other members of the committee were; and why should not the decision depend upon his vote, as well as upon others, the more especially as he was the one who paid the most particular attention to the subject?
697
Mr. Simeon
explained. He never meant that justice should be asleep by the decision being suspended. He meant only, that in no case should the chairman vote, except in cases of equality, where 7 of the other members bad voted on each side; and that in no case should he have a double vote.
Mr. C. Wynne
concurred entirely with the hon. gent. who had spoken last, and who had anticipated almost every thing that he had meant to say on the subject. The analogy between the practice of that house and that of the committee did not seem to him to apply. It was essential to the dignity of the house, that the opinions of their Speaker should not be known, as his interference must thereby possess far greater weight and authority. The committee appointed their own chairman; he as well as the rest, being sworn to a faithful discharge of the trust reposed in them; and he believed, there was no instance for the 30 years that the act had existed, of a charge of partiality being even alledged against any one committee. He could not, therefore, see any propriety, in altering the law, or in, saying that the person best qualified to judge on such an occasion, as the chairman must naturally be presumed to be, should alone be precluded from speaking and voting equally with the rest of the committee.
The Attorney-General
said, that he conceived the election laws to be of such very great importance, that the house should hear some very cogent reasons indeed urged, before they even allowed a bill to be brought in. He believed his learned friend's motives were pure and sincere; but as the subject had engaged much of his (the Attorney-General's) attention, he found himself to be of a very different opinion. In courts of law, the judges were frequently equally divided in opinion, and consequently not able to decide; but ancient usage had been so much respected, that nobody had ever thought proper to propose any alteration in their constitution. In the year 1775, Mr. Grenville brought in that act, which gave the casting vote to the president of committees, and even where the numbers were equal, no case of unjust or improper partiality had occurred. His learned friend seemed to aim at theoretical and unattainable perfection. He appeared inclined to render the very person who was likely to be most intelligent amongst that committee,
698
Mr. Simeon
here rose, and said, that as he plainly saw the opinion of the house was different from his own, he should withdraw the motion he had proposed—It was accordingly withdrawn.
Lord Folkestone
hoped, that the fate of the motion which had just been disposed of, would not have any influence upon that which he rose to make. The object of his motion was to make the notices at present required by an order of that house, respecting the entering into recognizances, a part of the law. The house would be more disposed to agree to his bill, as the effect of it would be to put an end to its interference in such cases, on applications for extending the time for receiving recognizances. He therefore moved for leave to bring in a bill to alter and amend so much of the act of the 28th of his majecty, as relates to Recognizances.
Mr. C. Wynne
did not think the object of the noble lord's measure corresponded with its title. It would not alter nor amend the act of the 28th of the king, because there was no mention of notices in that act, neither was there any provision in it, respecting the time for presenting petitions. These matters were settled by the regulations of that house, which all parties who came before it as petitioners, were bound to make themselves acquainted with. As there did not appear to him to be any necessity for an act of parliament on the subject, or to make the other house of Parliament a party to the orders by which the proceedings of that house were to be regulated, he should oppose the motion—The motion was then negatived without a division.
[FOREIGN PROPERTY IN THE FUNDS.] Mr. Bankes
rose pursuant to notice. He was happy after the fate of the two last motions, to be able to state that he had one to make, which was not likely to meet with any opposition. The document for which he
699
700
Lord Henry Petty
thought it might be more satisfactory to the hon. gent. to have the account made up to a later date, as well as more likely to answer the object he had in view. He was not aware that the account could be furnished to a later date, but would assure the hon. gent. and the house, that if upon enquiry he found that to be the case, the account should be presented. The information called for by the hon. gent. was such, that however he might differ from him as to the result to be drawn front it, he thought it ought, and could not with propriety be kept from the house. As the hon. gent. had with so much candour stated, that the opinion entertained by him last session on this subject remained unaltered, he thought it not amiss to declare, that upon the best reflection he could bestow upon the question, he could see no reason for changing the opinion he had on that occasion expressed of the propriety of granting the exemptions to the property of foreigners in the funds. He was confirmed in the opinion, when he considered the small assistance that could be derived from extending the tax to such property, and the indirect but great mischief that would result from adopting the suggestions of the hon. gent. At the same time he was ready to admit, that whenever the question was brought forward, he should be open to the arguments that he knew would be ably urged by the hon. gent. As to the expediency of bringing forward motions without any prospect of success, and the beneficial consequences of repeated discussions, he trusted that the present session of parliament would afford an instance (the Abolition of the Slave Trade) of the advantages and happy results of discussions upon reiterated motions.—The account was then ordered up to the latest period, to which it could be made out.
701
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 10.
[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.]
The order of the day for the third reading of the bill for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, being read,
Lord Redesdale
rose, and observed, that however the preamble of this bill might set out, that the African Slave Trade was unjust, inhuman, and impolitic, and, however it might be considered unjust, inhuman, and impolitic, to emancipate the Slaves in the West Indies, yet he considered the present measure would be the means of producing, in the West India Islands, all the horrors of a revolution that could possibly be conceived. The Abolition of the African Trade, he considered, should go hand in hand with that in the West India Islands; and however desirable an object the total abolition of the trade might be, he yet considered this instantaneous abolition, not only dangerous in itself, but likely to be productive of no particular good. As the bill stood at present, he could not give his assent to it, however he might be inclined to support it upon general principles; had it been a different description of bill, and went gradually to a general abolition of this trade, it should then have met with his hearty concurrence. He felt, that any attempt to withstand the present enthusiasm upon this subject would be in vain; but he could not help remarking, that when a legislature acted enthusiastically, they did not always act wisely, and he did not think that in the faithful and conscientious discharge of their duty, the opposers of this measure had much to answer for.
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
denied that the support which had been given to this measure, was to be attributed to mere feelings of enthusiasm. Mere enthusiasm was not calculated to last for 20 years, during which period this measure had been under discussion. It was, on the contrary, in his opinion, founded clearly on the grounds of justice and humanity, as well as upon a mature consideration of the present state of the West Indies. When a member of the house of commons in the year 1792, he voted for a gradual abolition, conceiving that the persons concerned in the trade ought to have sufficient notice. Now, however, he had no doubt that the trade ought to be immediately abolished, not only because it was contrary to justice and humanity, but also because the abolition
702
The Duke of Norfolk
approved of the bill, and expressed a confidence that the planters would by a moderate treatment of their slaves, contribute to bring about that state of the colonies which was so much to be desired.
The Earl of Westmoreland
was at a loss to understand upon what principle of logic it was to be proved, that if the slave trade was contrary to justice and humanity, it was not also contrary to justice arid humanity to keep the negroes who had been procured by means of the trade, in a state of perpetual slavery. He was not so mad as to think that liberty ought to be given to the slaves in the West Indies: but he contented, that upon the principles upon which the abolition was now founded, emancipation ought also to follow. If it was however determined finally to abolish the trade, it might at least be conceded to the feelings of the planters, and of those concerned in the trade, to erase the words, declaring it to be contrary to justice and humanity. It was thought, however, by some of the supporters of the bill, that by retaining these words, foreign powers might be humbugged, if he might use the expression, into a concurrence in the abolition. This, however, he did not think at all practicable, and it was surely a consideration of expediency, whether at a time when the continent of Europe was nearly shut against us, we should put an end to our trade with the continent of Africa, and by so doing, greatly injure and distress many persons, and deprive many more of the means of subsistence.
Lord Grenville
was glad to find that the opponents of this measure were nearly reduced to one argument, and that was, that the bill did not extend to the emancipation of the slaves already on the islands. The attempted application, however, of the same justice and humanity to both cases, resolved itself into this. In abolishing the trade we did justice to the inhabitants of Africa, who were the parties aggrieved, but in giving liberty to the slaves on the islands, we should do the greatest injustice to them in giving them that which they would not know how to use, and which would only be productive to them of injury. That liberty, the blessings of which we were ena-
703
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 10.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of lord Howick, the call of the house, which stood for this day, for the purpose of insuring a sufficient attendance of members to form the ballot for the Maidstone Election committee, was deferred to Thursday. On the motion of lord Howick, it was ordered, that the Rev. M. Marlow, D. D. be desired to preach before the house on the 25th instant, the day of Public. Fast.—The following are the names of the gentlemen on the reduced list, forming the committee to try the merits of the election and return for the Borough of Maidstone. Hon. W. Maule, J. Vaughan, esq. Hon. F. Robinson, Hon. J. Cust, John Patteson, esq. John Palmer, esq. W. Loftus, esq. J. Fuller, esq. Hon. E. Stewart, G. T. Steward, esq. Sir M. B. Foukes, T. Godfrey, esq. T. Shelly, esq. The parties having waved their right of appointing nominees, the committee retired, according to the provision of the act of parliament in such case, and themselves chose sir R. Peel, and the hon. W. Pole. The whole were then sworn at the table.
SINECURE PLACES AND PENSIONS.] Mr. Biddulph
rose and spoke as follows: I rise, sir, in pursuance of the notice I had the honour of giving on a former night, to submit to the consideration of the house, a motion, connected with a system of economy, and, in its import, similar to that proposed by an hon. friend of mine in the year 1797. In introducing this motion, I can with truth affirm, that my mind is totally uninfluenced by those passions which may be supposed to agitate public men, in bringing forward plans of retrenchment in the national expenditure, or motions for the reduction of places and pensions. The strong conviction in my mind, that a great practical benefit would result to the country, and to the revenue of the country, is the most striking inducement with me for submitting my motion to the consideration of the house. How that benefit would be best procured, has also been the subject of my inquiry, and in referring to the pre-
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Lord Folkestone
said, that he had the honour to second the motion.
Lord Henry Petty
rose and observed, that it gave him the highest satisfaction, that whatever difference of opinion might exist between himself and the hon. gent. as to the words of the motion, yet between him and the hon. gent. and not only that, but between the hon. gent. and all his majesty's ministers, there was a perfect coincidence of sentiment upon the grounds of the present motion. For if there was any thing upon which it might be expected that all should concur, it was this, that the strictest economy should be preserved in the management of the public money, and that all places, offices, and pensions, should be reduced to the smallest charge, consistent with the proper administration of the affairs of the nation. Therefore any measure which had that object in view came recommended by a strong similarity and union of sentiment amongst his majesty's ministers, as well as amongst others. But if he had the satisfaction to concur with
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Mr. Wilberforce
thought the liberality and candour manifested by his noble friend who had just sat down, particularly entitled him to the thanks of the country. But at the same time he must say, that his noble friend's opinion as to the necessity of substituting pensions for the established sinecures, struck him with surprise. If the committee so properly moved for, should be appointed with the impression which such an opinion, from so high an authority, was calculated to produce, he confessed that his good wishes towards that appointment would be considerably abated. No principle would be more injurious in its operation, according to his judgment, than that of voting to each public officer a certain remuneration for his services, instead of leaving these sinecures to be applied to such purposes, for which only they could be allowed to exist. He disapproved of the system of voting pensions, because he very much feared that under that system the amount of reward would depend too much on ministerial influence or popular clamour, or might be too much calculated to induce the one or irritate the other. He wished rather that the sinecures might remain for those to dispose of, who were best qualified to appreciate the merits to which they ought to be granted, and there was more likelihood that they would be groperly granted. That talents devoted to the service of the state were by any means so well rewarded as the same talents would be in any of the liberal professions, either of the church, medicine, or the bar, he was fully prepared to deny. He meant of course pecuniary reward; but that was not the object of public men, for their great and generous minds must look to views of
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Lord H. Petty
rose to explain a point upon which he had been evidently, without any intention, misinterpreted by his hon. friend. In his observations with respect to the comparative propriety of pensions and sinecures, he was in fact but endeavouring to answer an argument, which appeared to him likely to arise in the disscusion. But he expressed no opinion. His argument was merely speculative upon the question, whether if we were about to constitute a new system, it would not be better to invest, not that house, as his hon. friend seemed to think, but the crown, with the power of granting pensions as rewards to meritorious public officers, than to create nominal offices for the purpose of such rewards. But those offices being already in existence, rendered the case different, and their continuance was connected with the honour of the crown, and with the interests and good faith of the country. It was however, the duty of that house to take care that such a system was not carried to any unjustifiable excess, by the appointment, from time to time, of such committees as that which was now moved for. The noble lord concluded with moving an amendment to his motion, that Ireland should be included in the inquiry.
Mr. Wilberforce
professed his unwillingness to mis-state any sentiment of his noble friend's, and that he was quite satisfied with his explanation.
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Mr. Fawkes,
in a maiden speech, declared, that this was a motion upon which, consistently with his own principles, or his duty to his constituents, he could not content himself with giving a silent vote. He hoped, however, that in his first attempt to engage the attention of the house, he should meet with that indulgence which was usually extended to a member rising under similar circumstances. Notwithstanding all the efforts that had been made, and all the expences incurred, in endeavours to rescue our neighbours from subjugation, there still remained to this country sufficient means and resources to enable us to cope with all the adversaries with whom we had, and might have, to contend, if only they should be wisely administered and economically applied. He was persuaded that the country possessed ample means to meet every emergency, and to secure us against every possible danger. But the only means of obtaining this desirable end was, that the government should shew to the people that they were determined to rectify every abuse, and manifest a determination to ameliorate the condition of the people. When he considered the actual slate of the country, labouring under a grievous weight of burthens, when he called to mind the declarations made at different times by persons high in office, that the people would be called on to sacrifice, not only the comforts, but even the necessaries of life, for the support of the present contest, he should not think that he performed his duty to those who sent him there, if he did not give his entire and cordial support to the motion then before the house, and every other motion of the same description. The noble lord on the bench below him, had said, that it was desirable to continue some sinecure places, as rewards and retreats for meritorious public officers. Whenever gallantry should be displayed, whenever diligence should be exerted, whenever talents should be exercised in the service of the country, whenever eminent merit should be manifested in the conduct of its affairs and interests, he should not be disposed to quarrel with the grant of adequate and liberal rewards in such cases. But these were times when the public money ought not to be lavished upon persons who had not performed any service to deserve remuneration. The people of this country were fully sensible of the blessings that they enjoyed, and of the dangers that threatened
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Mr. Ellison
highly applauded the disposition manifested by ministers.#x2014;The amendment being moved,
Mr. Biddulph
said, that there then was so little of substantial difference between the motion he had the honour to submit and the amendment proposed by the noble lord, that he was not disposed to press his motion. The objects he had in view would be attained by the amendment. He declared the sincere satisfaction which he felt from the sentiments of the chancellor of the exchequer, and had no doubt that those sentiments would be followed up, not in the abridgment of public liberty, for that he deprecated as much as any man; but in the reduction of those sinecures which were known to have gone in some instances to such an enormous extent as to have excited the general and just jealousy of the public.
Mr. Calvert
hoped that at all events the noble lord and his colleagues would do that which was now in heir power, namely, to prevent the pledging and mortgaging of those sinecure places, which was a system that had heretofore been practised without restraint.—The amendment was then agreed to, and the committee nominated; to whom
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[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.]
A Message was sent to the house by the house of lords, announcing that their lordships had passed a bill, entitled, An Act for the Abolition of the Slave Trade, and to which they desired the concurrence of the house; the bill being laid upon the table,
Lord Howick
rose and moved, that this Bill be read a first time; upon which
Mr. George Hibbert,
in a maiden speech, said, that he could not suffer a measure of such great and critical importance to pass even over this stage without remark: although in seeking to impress upon the house the duty of giving to it the most calm and solemn deliberation, he should be careful to abstain from any argument concerning the principle or provisions of the bill, for which he knew there would be another and a fitter opportunity. It was a bill that, without question, put to risk our West India commerce, a most important resource of the empire, and of peculiar value at the present moment: nothing that had passed in another house of parliament; nothing in the form of resolutions or opinions of a former parliament; no popular sentiment out of doors, however assiduously and enthusiastically excited, ought to affect their deliberations. To this parliament, to which they were called, the question came unembarrassed and unprejudged, and to many of the members of that house its temperate discussion must be novel. They were not a
commitium
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Lord Howick
agreed with the hon. gent. in the great importance of the present bill. It was indeed important in the highest degree, not merely to the cause of humanity and justice, but it was also highly important to the real interests of the West India merchants themselves. It certainly would never be argued in that house, that the West India Islands were not an important part of the British empire, and that their interests did not deserve the most serious consideration. When the bill should come seriously to be discussed, it would be considered not only on the ground of humanity, but also of sound policy, as it affected the West India Islands, and the general interests of the empire. He, therefore, wished as much as any man, that this important subject should be considered with calmness and due deliberation. The hon. gent. had spoken of pains taken to raise a popular clamour against the Slave Trade: he, however, knew of no such practices. He knew, indeed, that there had been a most laudable and persevering attention on the part of the hon. gent. (Mr. Wilberforce) who originated the measure, but this attention was never employed to mislead any body, but merely to make the subject generally understood. He had never laboured to excite a prejudice or clamour, but merely to convince the understandings of all dispassionate persons. There certainly ought to be a fair time allowed for the discussion, but when he recollected how much time had been already given, and what notice the persons concerned had already had from the proceedings in the other house, he could not consent to postpone the second reading farther than to Tuesday next; the hon. gent. would then have an opportunity of arguing the subject fully.
General Gascoyne
thought it could only be from the multiplicity of business in which the noble lord (Howick) was engaged, that it had escaped his notice, that every measure that invention or artifice could devise to create a popular clamour was resorted to on this occasion. The church, the theatre, and the press, had laboured to
719
Mr. W. Plumer
begged leave to set right the hon. gent. who had last spoken; and to inform him, that no one man, in the whole county he represented, ever asked him to pledge himself upon the subject of this bill. He could assure him, that if any man had asked him to pledge himself upon that, or any subject, he would have refused to accept of his vote. He should, therefore, vote quite free and uncontrouled for the abolition of the trade. He did not know what the hon. gent. might have met with in boroughs; but as to cabinet measures, and cabinet ministers, he cared not for any measures which were so denominated. The time was, when a member would have been called to order for having hinted at such things as cabinet measures.
General Gascoyne
in explanation, said,
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Mr. T. W. Plummer
thought it necessary, that a bill of such general interest should not be rapidly carried through its different stages, but that sufficient time should be given for the consideration of the measure. On which account, he concluded, that the proper time to debate the question would be on the second reading of the bill, which he hoped would be fixed for a day sufficiently distant to admit of members being furnished with every information on this important subject.
Lord Howick
was almost persuaded, that from the number of years which had elapsed since the first discussion of this bill, and from the frequent debates which had since taken place on this subject, as well as the decision of the last parliament, there would be no necessity to postpone its consideration to a more remote period than Tuesday next.
Mr. G. Hibbert
was of opinion this period would not be sufficient to admit a meeting of those merchants, who were, above all others, concerned in the present measure; and therefore requested the noble lord would put off the second reading until this day fortnight.
Lord H. Petty
hoped the humane movers of this salutary and merciful measure, would persevere in bringing it, as soon as convenient, again before the house. It had already been submitted, for above a month or six weeks, to the public, during its discussion in the upper house, from which it had come with every recommendation. As that house undoubtedly contained many of the most enlightened and virtuous statesmen, this was a consideration, which he hoped would have its due weight with gentlemen. He concluded with expressing a wish, that the second reading of the bill should not meet with any unnecessary delay.
Captain Herbert
thought with the hon. gent. near him (Mr. Hibbert) that time should be given to consider the consequences arising from the passing of the bill just now read. This bill, he was of opinion, would not effect the abolition of the Slave Trade, but rather would become the ruin of the British Colonies in the West Indies,
721
Mr. H. Addington
thought it necessary to defer the second reading to a more remote day. In which opinion he was supported by Mr. Lethbridge.
Mr. I. H. Browne
said, that; though the uniform enemy of the Slave Trade, and that from a conviction of its injustice, inhumanity, as well as impolicy, yet, when an innovation was about to be made on the private properties of a considerable portion of this commercial country, he could not think the suggested delay of a fortnight unreasonable. He should, if the house divided on this point, certainly vote for the postponement, and therefore could not be content without expressing himself as he had done, lest he might be supposed an enemy to the abolition of this detestable traffic.
Lord Temple
objected to the day intended for the second reading of the bill, and was at a loss to conjecture the reason of his noble friend's wishing thus to hurry the bill through its stages. He conceived it would be prudent, in a case of this importance, to furnish the house with a printed account of the evidence in the other house. It should be remembered, that this bill was introduced with the blanks filled up; and in this respect, not similar to other bills, on their first reading, which originate in this house. From these circumstances, he was induced to hope the noble lord would concur with him in deferring the second reading for another week.
Mr. Tierney
thought there was abundance of time for a meeting of the West India Planters; and the same counsel, if it should be thought expedient to hear counsel on the subject, might be employed in this, as in the other house.
Mr. Babington
thought a meeting of the West India Merchants could easily meeting called within the time appointed by the noble lord.
Mr. Hibbert
wthen moved, as an amendment, that the second reading be fixed for this day fortnight.
Lord Howick
wishing above all things, that no pretence should be given for cavil-
722
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday February 11.
[Finance Committee]Mr. Biddulph
moved that the name of Mr. Ellison be added to the list of persons appointed yesterday as a select committee for the purpose of examining into the salaries and emoluments annexed to public offices.
Mr. Bathurst
declared that he could not avoid resisting a motion of this nature. The committee at present consisted of 22 instead of 21, the more usual number of members; and, if the practice of adding names to a select committee were to be encouraged by the house acceding to the proposal of adding any name, however respectable, to a committee already so numerous, as this was, instead of select they would have almost general committees, when they were voted to be select ones, as every other member would have an equal right to propose the addition of whatever person he might think particularly, qualified to serve on the committee then spoken of. If one was to be proposed in the stead of another, however disagreeable it might be to their feelings, gentlemen must see that that would be a fair ground of discussion.
Mr. Calvert
supported the motion on the ground of the probability that some of the members might be absent from their duty at the committee; and adverted to an instance where he had seen only one honourable member, (Mr. Bathurst) acting in a committee-room.
Mr. Bathurst
explained to the house that he was at that time engaged in making abstracts from the statements which were in the voluminous documents before the committee. It would be perfectly useless for 14 or 15 persons to attempt to perform such a task. In this he could only suppose that he acted as an assitant to the clerk, and not that he personated the committee.
Lord H. Petty
reminded the heuse that the committee of finance, whose labours were esteemed to be particularly advantageous to the public, and with whom the house was most particularly well satisfied,
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Mr. Johnstone
declared, that the noble Lord had not satisfied his mind upon this head. The former committee, he agreed with the noble lord in saying, had discharged their duty in a manner highly creditable to themselves, and beneficial to the service of the public. He had no doubt also that the present committee were as eminently qualified as the noble lord had described, to perform the task assigned to them with honour and ability. But still he thought it was rather hard that, after his hon. friend had suggested the propriety of adopting a measure, though he unquestionably was not so capable of supporting it as the noble lord was, and though the noble lord entirely concurred with him, and supported him in the main object of his motion, with only some little variation of terms; he still thought it was rather hard that his hon. friend should not be allowed to name one person for the committee. There had been instances of names being added to select committees on many former occasions.
Mr. Freemantle
also bore testimony to the respectability of the names on the present list; in fact he could not see that it was possible to select 22 more independent, more capable, or more honourable men. As to precedent, he did not think that it was necessary to be resorted to in such a
724
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday February 12.
[Lord Dunstanvilles Indemnity Bill.] The Lord Chancellor
left the woolsack, to observe, that a noble lord (De Dunstanville), having inadvertently assisted at part of the debate on the Slave Trade bill, without having previously qualified himself by taking the usual oaths and his seat, the noble lord had thereby incurred certain pains and penalties prescribed by an act of Charles II. Their lordships would naturally observe that the members of that house, being hereditary members of the legislature, might readily be supposed to overlook or forget the ceremonies of taking the oaths every new parliament. Such was the inadvertency the noble lord had lapsed into, the same as had been incurred by a noble marquis (Lawnsdowne) some years ago. In that case his majesty's will and pleasure was consulted, and instructions given to bring in a bill to indemnify that noble lord, as quickly as the bill could be gone through. What he had to perform on the present occasion would be squared upon that precedent; and he now held a bill in his hand similar to that proposed in the case of the noble marquis, which he trusted the house would allow to pass through its different stages as rapidly as possible. He should now propose that it be read a first time.
Lord Walsingham
hinted that the standing orders of the house did not allow the bill to go through more than one stage in a day—After a few words from the lord chancellor, the bill was read a first time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday February 12.
[Minutes.]
The following members were appointed a committee to try the merits of the petition complaining of an undue election for the borough of Chippenham: N. Calvert. esq. W. Fitzhugh, esq. William Fawkes, esq. hon. A. Cooper, lord Mahon, A. Eyre, esq. W. Odell, esq. J. H. Street,
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[New Plan of Finance.—Lord Castlereaghs Financial Resolutions.]
Lord Castlereagh
said, that in the whole course of his parliamentary experience, he had never felt more difficulty in rising to address the house than he felt on the present occasion. He had to review the new and extended Plan of Finance proposed by the noble lord opposite (lord Henry Petty), and to compare it in all its parts, and all its bearings, with the present system. When he considered with what deliberation the noble lord must have prepared his plan, and what able assistance he had to complete it, it was so disagreeable a thing for an individual like himself to state any thing in opposition to it, that nothing but an imperious sense of duty could warrant or induce him to offer himself to the house with that view. But the difference between his opinions and those maintained by the noble lord was so great, that there must be some material errors on one side or the other. Considering the advantages the noble lord had with respect to the means of viewing the subject, the errors were probably on his own side: but such was the conviction in his own mind of the truth of his own views of the subject, that he felt it a paramount duty to give the house an opportunity of comparing his opinions and calculations with those of the noble lord. He by no means wished to depreciate the noble lord's plan on any general grounds. The facts and the reasons upon which his opinions were formed he would state specifically to the house; and as he had felt it impossible to follow the noble lord opposite in the statement he had made on a former night, in a manner so creditable to him, from its clearness, it was his wish to follow the example of the noble lord and to leave his opinions open to the
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No. I.
"That it is proposed by the New Plan of Finance, that the annual excesses of the present Sinking Fund, above the interest of the debt charged upon it in every given year, should be declared to be at the disposal of parliament, and applicable to the public service. And it appears that the aggregate produce of the said excesses, between the years 1816 and 1826, will amount in the whole to 11,121,938
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No. II.
That the proposed System of Finance proceeds gradually to mortgage for 14 years the whole of the War Taxes for the Interest of Loans in War. That these Taxes are not generally of a nature which can with propriety be so pledged, as several of them such as the Tax on Exports, the Duties on Tea and on Spirits must probably either be modified or reduced on a peace, whilst it is proposed by the said Plan that the Property Tax, amounting to 11,500,000
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Suppose a Peace Establishment at 15,000,000
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If the War Taxes were mortgaged, then there would remain—
Land and Malt
2,750,000
Surplus of Consold. Fund
3,500,000
Lottery
450,000
6,700,000
Annual Deficiency to be provided for by new Loans
Taxes
8,300,000
Supposing the Peace Establishment to amount to
20,000,000
The Deficiency to be provided for in like manner would be
13,300,000
No. III.
"That the new plan will require Loans to a greater amount to be raised in each year than would be required if the usual system of borrowing were persevered in.
By the present system, in order to cover a War Expenditure of
32,000,000
There would be wanted in each year in aid of the 21 Millions War Taxes, a Loan of
11,000,000
mounting in 20 years to
220,000,000
NEW PLAN.
Amount of the War Loans for 20 years
210,000,000
Ditto of Supplementary Loans for ditto
204,200,000
Total
416,200,000
Total Excess by the New Plan, exclusive of 82,000,000l. borrowed on the War Taxes, and redeemed within the period
190,200,000
The Average Capitals to be annually raised by the New Plan are—
Annual amount of Loans by the new plan on a 20 Years Average
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War Loan
10,500,000
Supplementary ditto
10,200,000–20,700,000
Annual Amount of Loans by the present Plan
11,000,000
Average Annual Excess of Loans by new Plan
9,700,000
No. IV.
"That the comparative Increase of the Public Debt which will be produced by the two Plans, and the effect this will have on the proportionate amount of the Sinking Fund, by their operation in 28 years, is as follows:—
EFFECT OF THE PRESENT SYSTEM.
The Amount of the Money Capital of the Public Debt is, in the year 1807
383,793,722
The Amount of ditto will be in the year 1826, supposing Eleven Millions raised in each year
270,443,305
Decrease of Debt in 20 years, raising Eleven Millions in each year
93,350,471
EFFECT OF THE NEW PLAN.
Amount of the Money Capital of the Public Debt under the New Plan is, in 1807
364,993,722
The amount of ditto will be in 1826.
455,537,932
Increase by New Plan in twenty years
90,544,210
Decrease of Debt by the present System, as above
93,350,417
Increase of ditto by the New Plan
90,544,210
Total Increase of Debt by New System
183,894,667
EFFECT OF PRESENT PLAN ON THE SINKING FUND.
Amount of Sinking Fund under the present System on the Public Debt is in 1807
8,515,042
Amount of Ditto will be in 1826
27,115,881
Increase of Sinking Fund in twenty years
18,610,839
EFFECT OF NEW PLAN ON THE SINKING FUND.
Amount of Sinking Fund under the New System is stated to be, in 1807.
8,935,642
Amount of ditto under New System will be, in 1826
26,901,360
Increase in twenty years
17,966,318
Difference in favour of present System
644,421
So that the New Plan gives only
26,901,360
Sinking Fund on a Debt of 455,537,932, whilst the present System would give the larger Sinking Fund of 27,115,881, on the smaller Debt of 270,443,305.
The proportion of the Sinking Fund to the whole Debt will be under the present plan is 1826 above one-tenth.
The proportion of the Sinking Fund to the whole Debt under the New Plan will be in 1826 about one-seventeenth.
The Sinking Fund under the present plan above stated, at 27,115,881l. continues to increase at compound interest alter the year 1826 till the whole Debt is redeemed.
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The Sinking Fund under the New Plan having obtained its maximum of 28,155,358
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No. V.
"That an Increase of Charges for the Interest and Sinking Fund of Loans for the twenty years must take place under the New Plan, compared with the like charge, which would take place, were the present System persevered in.
EFFECTS OF THE PRESENT SYSTEM.
Annual Loan 11,000,000l. charge for interest and Sinking Fund
733,333
Amount of Loans for twenty years 220,000l. a charge for ditto
14,666,680
EFFECT OF THE NEW PLAN.
Charge of Suppl. Loans amounting in twenty years to 204,200,000l. expiring annuities deducted
14,266,388
War Taxes mortgaged at the end of twenty years, which are to be liberated successively in the next fourteen years, after the year 1826
21,000,000
Charge as above under the present System
14,666,660
Charge under the New Plan for the Supplementary Loans only
14,299,388
Difference
370,272
War Taxes mortgaged as above for War Loans, according to the New Plan.
21,000,000
Ditto according to the present system
Nil
No. VI.
"That the Ways and Means proposed by the New Plan to prevent the necessity of imposing new Taxes to any considerable Amount, viz. the expiring Annuities, together with the excesses of the Sinking Fund, above the interest of the unredeemed Debt, are equally applicable
pro tanto,
Produce of the Excess of the Sinking Fund between 1816 and 1826, above the interest of the unredeemed Debt
11,122,809
Applicable by the falling in of Annuities
683,092
New permanent Taxes, proposed by the New Plan to be raised between 1810 and 1817, to the Amount of
2,051,000
Total
13,856,861
Charge of Supplementary Loans, Annuities not deducted
14,296,388
Ways and Means as above
13,856,000
Remains to be provided for
440,388
Charge for the total amount of Loans, at the rate of 11,000,000
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Fund, the expiring annuities not deducted
14,656,660
As a Fund to supply this charge, the Ways and Means as above for raising the interest and Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Loans may be applied
13,856,861
Remains to be provided for in order to cover the charge
809,799
That it therefore appears, that the means to be applied under the New System to defray the charge for interest and Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Loans alone, would (exclusive of any mortgage on the War Loans), with the addition of Taxes to the amount of 369,411
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No. VII.
"That the comparative effects which will be produced on the public income by the two systems, on return of peace, and on the formation of a peace establishment are as follows:—
UNDER THE PRESENT PLAN.
There would be no charge whatever upon any part of the War Taxes. The whole twenty-one millions would remain free. The Property Tax, or whatever portion of the other War Taxes were not required towards making an adequate provision for the peace establishment might be immediately remitted, leaving that resource unpledged and available on the recurrence of war.
UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM.
When peace takes place, a considerable part, if not the whole of the War Taxes, will have been mortgaged. In the latter case there will only remain a clear revenue of 6,700,000
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It appears that in 1806 the excess of the War Sinking Fund will be 9,967,283
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No VIII.
"That the sum of 11 Millions a year, required in aid of the 21 Millions War Taxes, to complete the War Expenditure of 32 Millions may be raised (should the principle of applying the excesses of the Sinking Fund to the Public Service be decided on) according to the following mode, without mortgaging the War Taxes, or rendering new Taxes of any materially greater amount necessary than it is proposed to lay on by the new System, and without making so considerable an addition to the Debt, as will be made should the new System be carried into execution.
The Sum required as above to provide for a Loan of Eleven Millions per annum, for 20 years, is
14,666,660
The Resources available amount to
13,856,861
Deficiency
809,799
This deficiency of 809,799
l
l
As the Charges upon a Loan of Eleven Millions would in each year amount to 733,333
l
l
l
l
No. IX.
That nearly the same results may be produced by determining, that, when the Loan of the Year in war does not exceed the amount of the Sinking Fund in the said Year, instead of making provision for the interest of the said Loan by new Taxes, the same shall be provided for by and out of the interest receivable on the amount of Stock in that year redeemed by the commissioners of the National Debt; in which case the amount of Debt unredeemed will continue stationary during war.
The Sinking Fund is at present
8,515,042
It will be in 1811
11,140,274
744
In four years, therefore, from the present time, no new Taxes will be required (the data remaining the same), however long the War may continue; and the War Taxes will remain free at the close of the War, when the Sinking Fund will resume its progressive operation; the purchase of Stock by the Commissioners being continued in the mean time to the full amount of the Sinking Fund.—That the Charge for four years Loans as above, for 11 Millions in each year, taking credit for 385,515
l
l
l
l
l
Amount of Debt in 1826, by New Plan, taken at
455,517,932
Ditto, in 1826, by this Plan
369,390,887
Difference of Debt in favour of this Plan
86,147,045
And no War taxes are mortgaged.
No. X.
That the expence of raising any given amount of Loan on the present system, viz. by a single Loan with a Sinking Fund of one per cent. as compared with the principle of the New Plan of raising the same amount by double and concurrent Loans: the one raised upon a Fund of ten per Cent. for Interest and Sinking Fund; the other raised upon a Fund of six per cent. for Interest and Sinking Fund, calculating the payments on account thereof from the commencement to the final liquidation of the said Loan, is as follows, the Sinking Fund, in both cases, being taken on the money instead of the nominal capital.
Suppose 12,000,000
l
NEW PLAN.
10 per Cent. Interest and Sinking Fund on
12,000,000
l
for one year
1,200,000
A like Charge for 13 years more, at which time the Principal is redeemed
15,600,000
Total Payments
16,000,000
To cover the Interest and Sinking Fund of 1,200,000
l
l
1,008,000
l
The latter sum being raised on a One
745
per Cent. Sinking Fund, may be considered as an Annuity of forty-three years.
Payments on account thereof.
43,344,000
Payments as above
16,800,000
Total Payments
60,144,000
PRESENT SYSTEM.
The Interest and Sinking Fund, on a loan of 12,000,000
l
l
Payments to be made on acct. thereof till its Redemption 30,960,000
l
Payments on new system upon a loan of 12,000,000
l
60,144,000
Ditto, on present system
30,960,000
Excess of the Charge of Redemption by new system
29,184,000l."
Lord Henry Petty
did not feel it necessary to say more than a few words on the present occasion, because it was neither desirable for the house nor for himself that he should follow the noble lord through his very able seeech, and the clear view he had given of his objections to the New Financial System that had been submitted to the house on a former night. It was, however, necessary for him to make a few observations upon one point, which had been touched upon by the noble lord, in order to prevent any misconception of what had fallen from himself on a former night from going further. The great objection of the noble lord to the system that had been submitted to the house was, that it went to legislate for the future. Though the noble lord admitted that it would be right to look to the future in the arrangement of any system, he did not think it desirable that any legislative enactment should be resorted to for that purpose. He had himself stated, that it would be necessary for the house to look prospectively to the situation of the country, in the adoption of any system; but that it would not be desirable to make any legislative enactment on an assumption of future events, which might prove contrary to all calculation, and were solely under the controul of Providence. He had expressly asserted, that if any essential alteration were to take place in the plan, it would not arise from any such alteration of events, or of the circumstances of the country. What were the changes that were likely to take place? An increase of expenditure, from the demand for foreign subsidies from with-
746
747
Mr. Rose
did not propose to enter then into the discussion of the Resolutions that had been submitted. He wished merely to state, that he was not satisfied with the data of the noble lord opposite, or of his noble friend, though he thought those of his noble friend less liable to objection. On Monday he should state his opinions on the subject, though he should not throw any obstacle in the way of the ways and means of the year. The plan of the noble lord, however appeared to him a permanent one; and, if once adopted, it would not be possible to make any alteration in it for 20 years, without convulsing the whole system.—The debate was then adjourned to Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 13.
[PETITION RESPECTING THE HAMPSHIRE ELECTION.] Mr. Asheton Smith
rose pursuant to notice, to submit a motion to the house on the subject of the Petition, which he had the honour to present on a former day (see p. 684). But before he should proceed further, he thought it regu-
748
749
Sir Henry Mildmay
rose to second the motion of his hon. friend. The allegations of that petition had been ably brought under the view of the house by the manliness, the moderation, and the talents of his hon. friend. In touching upon the subject of this petition, he confessed he felt considerable difficulty, because of the prominent share he had borne on the occasion to which it refered; because any observations he should make upon it, might perhaps be considered as the result of his feelings of disappointment. But under all the circumstances of the case, he considered it not only a duty he owed to the individuals, whose rights had been invaded, but a still greater duty to the house, to the public, and to himself, to trace, to detect, and to expose such unconstitutional interference on the part of his majesty's ministers. This interference had been exerted in a most unjustifiable and open manner on that occasion, not only in defiance of the principles of the constitution, but in the teeth of a resolution of that house. His hon. friend had not, by his motion, called upon the house to come to any hasty or premature decision; he had only proposed to them to adopt a proceeding analogous to what had been pursued on a former occasion, of nearly a similar nature. On searching for precedents, however, he admitted that there were none to be found precisely analogous to the present case. But the unconstitutional interference with the freedom of election was no less a subject worthy of the attention of that house. When this petition had been presented, a noble lord opposite (lord Temple) had stated, that the petition had for a long time occupied the public attention, and that much pains had been taken to poison the public mind upon the subject of it. From
750
751
752
753
754
Mr. Fremantle
said, that in rising to vindicate himself from the charges that had been brought against him, he felt considerable fears, not from any consciousness of guilt, but from the difficulty which unavoidably arose from his not having been accustomed to parliamentary speaking. But how much greater must his difficulty be, when he reflected that his own character and conduct, and the character and even the very existence of the government under which he acted, was committed in the present charge? He had only therefore to throw himself upon the indulgence of the house, whilst he repelled the charges to the best of his ability. From the moment of the dissolution of parliament, rumours had been in circulation upon the subject of the interference of government in the county of Southampton. He trusted that he should be able to shew that these rumours had been magnified and exaggerated beyond what the case would warrant. No wonder, therefore, that the public mind should have been affected by such statements. He was confident, however, that he should be able to shew that he had not committed either the government or himself upon this
755
756
757
758
759
760
Sir Renry Mildmay
in explanation said, that he had not asserted that the petition had the sanction of a county meeting
Mr. Broderick
expressed his surprise at the speech of the hon. secretary of the treasury, and had never heard sentiments avowed in parliament so directly in the teeth of the resolution of the house. He said that he had property in the county, arid he believed that the fact was so, but his situation in the treasury would be more attended to by barrack masters and others, over whom the treasury might be supposed to have some influence. The hon. secretary had said, that this was not the petition of the county. Certainly not. It had never been presented as such. But it was not his business to say how the voters, who wished to petition, were to assemble. He (Mr. B.) was not in the habit of attending clubs, and knew nothing about their mode of proceeding. But the hon. secretary's friends on the bench near him, might give him any information on that head he might require. As to the right of government to interfere in elections, the hon. secretary had said, that no threat, no improper influence, could have been used by the government without his knowledge; so extensive was his connection with all its members. This circumstance would prevail much more with the barrack-masters than any consideration of the hon. secretary's property in the county. It had been said by a right hon. gent. the other night, that this petition ought to have
761
Mr. W. Herbert
expressed his satisfaction that the stream of calumny which had been so industriously spread all over the country, which had been swelled by every possible means abroad, and nourished by insinuations even in that house, had been at last brought to the test of public investigation. But, however much he felt satisfied at this, he must say something respecting the conduct of those who presented this petition. They ought to have presented it at an earlier period. But an hon. gent. had said, that they had been desirious of presenting it at the opening of the session, but that they had thought proper to delay the matter till a full attendance of county members might be expected. But what could he say to justify himself, if it should appear to be true that the petition did not exist at the opening of the session, nor had been even in contemplation; but that another petition, different from this, and containing no distinct charge against his hon. friend, was then intended to be presented, but was afterwards abandoned from want of grounds? He did not say this lightly; and he took the liberty of adverting to it in order to enable the house to judge whether this petition was presented from party motives, or with a view to the interests of justice. He then adverted to the assertions that had been made respecting the interference of government in the dock-yards, and denied that any improper interference had taken place there. For this he had the authority of the commissioners, and other officers of the dock-yards, who declared that they had exercised no improper influence over the artificers, nor had endeavoured to detach such of them as were connected with the other party from their friends and connections. This affair of the dock-yards was the subject of the other petition, which had been abandoned. But having ascertained that there were no substantial grounds for this, they had resorted to this unfounded charge against his hon. friend. Threats and calumnies had been used on the other side, however, even by some invested with magisterial authority. Such threats had been used, not only to procure votes, but to force voters to violate their pledges. After
762
Mr. Jeffery
said, that after the bold assertions made by the secretary of the treasury that no influence had been used by government, either in Hampshire or any other place, he could not rest satisfied with giving a silent vote on the question, for fear it might be taken as a sympton that he assented to the truth of those assertions. He would therefore request the attention of the house till he gave a few reasons, which came within his own knowledge, and which in fact related to himself, to shew the house why he, for one, could not place confidence in those assertions. That very hon. gent. the secretary of the treasury, had openly and plainly told him, that if he again offered himself as a candidate for Poole, he must not expect the influence of government in his favour, which he had formerly experienced, because he had in the last parliament opposed and voted against the government: that they were therefore determined to oppose him. Here some murmurs taking place, Mr. Jeffery said, "Nay, hear me out, I have not half done yet." He then proceeded to say, that the secretary of the Treasury went on to inform him, that if he persisted in standing as a candidate, government would endeavour to open the borough, and try the right of the commonalty, which had once before been done without effect. He stated further, that after the first government candidate had tried a canvass, and afterwards declined the contest, it had been publicly notified that the patronage of government was to be given to Michael Angelo Taylor, esq. Places which were before promised to certain persons, were actually given to others, in order to obtain their support of the candidate who opposed him in his native place. These and many other instances of a similar kind, shewed, beyond contradiction, that the undue influence of government had been exerted; and therefore that the secretary to
763
Mr. Biddulph
—Sir, the hon. gent. who spoke last but one, has, in an ardent and energetic manner, called upon the house to express its disapprobation of the principle and allegations of the petition, on which the motion of the hon. gent. near me is founded. Really sir, with the feelings which I entertain on this subject, and without the least party bias, for, in this house, or out of it, I am attached to no political party, I can by no means subscribe to the hopes and wishes of the hon. gent. nor conceal my opinion that the petition is a proper one, introduced on proper grounds, and for the introduction of which, whatever delay may have been occasioned, the persons who have taken it up, deserve the warmest gratitude of parliament. There have fallen sentiments from the hon. gent. whose name is particularly alluded to in this petition, which I do confess have struck me with no small share of astonishment; indeed, when I heard him this night asserting the positive right of government to interfere, as a government, in the exercise of the elective franchise, I felt not only astonished, but actually dismayed. This, sir, is a principle against which it is the duty of this house to make a stand, and which should not be suffered to escape, without the individual reprobation of every member of this house, together with the expressed and recorded disavowal of the legislature. That hon. gent. has also declared, that no kind of undue influence was exerted, during the late election, by any department or individual of his majesty's government; that if such influence had been exerted, froth the situation which he held as Secretary of the Treasury, it could not have escaped his notice and observation; in fact, he has told us, that it must have actually gone through him, as the official channel. With this voluntary statement from the hon. gent. upon this plain and perspicuous acknowledgment, I put it to himself and to the house to decide, whether a considerable suspicion does not naturally attach to the interference of a person so connected with his majesty's government, in the elective rights of the people, and whether it did not become a peremptory point of duty with the hon. gent. to exercise the most scrupulous caution and delicacy, in any step, either personal or official, which he might have been induced to take, with reference to the election of members of parliament? It has this night come out, that he, a public character, did write to the head of the Barrack Department of the county of
764
Mr. Fremantle
in explanation, said that he meant that the individuals in the government had as good a right to interfere as those of a corporate body. As to the other posi-
765
Mr. Charles Jenkinson
rose, and in a maiden speech, addressed the house as follows:—I rise, Sir, with feelings of pride and satisfaction, to acknowledge myself as one of those who have lent their names to the petition which at present engages the attention of the house. I subscribed it from the strong conviction I felt of the truth of its allegations, and with an ardent hope that the house of commons would interpose its constitutional protection between the privileges of the elective body, and the destructive strides of ministerial encroachment. These feelings originated in my mind, not from the solitary case of the county of Southampton; they were justified by the conduct and hostility which I myself experienced, as one of those individuals against whom the shafts of ministerial influence were strongly, but unsuccessfully directed. At Dover, for which port I have the honour of being a representative, there are two parties; the one immediately under the influence of the Victualling Board, the other controuled by the Ordnance Department. From such causes, a number of the electors had determined to give one vote at the request of the principals in these respective branches, reserving to themselves the right of supporting me with the second. This determination was not in unison with the inclinations of his majesty's government, and a communication was absolutely made to all persons in the various gradations of employment under the boards I have mentioned, that whoever voted for my return, would be dispossessed of the situation he held and be actually deprived of his livelihood. To the honour of some of my constituents, they waited on me, and apprised me of their intention to adhere to their promises, even at the hazard of their personal interests. The house will do me the justice to believe, that, under such circumstances, I immediately released them from their previous engagements to me; whilst the fear of ministerial persecution operated so much with others, as to force them, at the altar of their God, to disregard the sacred pledge they had given; the place of election being there held in the Church, by a peculiar custom. From this plain statement, the house and the country will be able to decide
766
Mr. Tierney
observed, that the opener and seconder of the motion had, at least, the merit of having been candid and explicit in their statement of facts, and these being completely in the possession of the house, there was no occasion to go into a committee for the purpose of further investigation. What further had the house to learn? The hon. baronet had read the papers once, and some of them even twice, and had made his observations upon them. What, then, could be gained by going into a committee? And he would ask, whether such a breach of privilege had been proved, as rendered the matter worthy of investigation by a committee of privileges? It had been stated, that he had said that the petition had been too long delayed. He had said so, and avowed it. It was signed, he observed, by several members of parliament, and these might have brought forward the business without any petition, and ought to have done it the first moment it was possible. Such was the anxiety of the house to consider questions of privilege, that they had the pecedence of every other business, and this question might have been discussed even before his majesty's speech. The inference he drew from this was, that they did not think this breach of privilege as one of much consequence, and had accordingly allowed it to sleep for a time for some purpose or other. It had been said, he did not know with what truth, that it was in order to find the right petition; which an hon. member had signed, supposing it to be another petition, and he was sorry he was not present, for if he had been in the house, he thought it possible he would have confessed that he did not know what he had signed. His hon. friend (Mr. Fremantle) had observed, that he had no previous notice of the charge which it was meant to bring against him. But what could be said of an hon. gent. (Mr. Jeffery,) who had brought a most serious charge against an hon. member, not only without notice, but even in his absence? A more indecorous, a more unprecedented proceeding, and a conduct more improper from one gentleman to another never was witnessed.—(A loud cry of order, order.)
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
rose and said, that during the long time that he had sat in parliament, he never heard more improper
767
The Speaker
said, that certainly in the sense in which the hon. gent. understood them, the words might as well have been spared.
Mr. Tierney
in continuation asked, whether it could be thought that it was his object to make two gentlemen quarrel? If his words could be supposed to have that tendency, the hon. gent. had to be sure very much mended the matter. He would not, however, be led away by the broad hint Which the hon. gent. had thrown out. A right hon. gent. over the way (Mr. Rose) had said on a former night, that this was unprecedented conduct on the part of government. Such a petition as this might, indeed, be called unprecedented, and yet after all the search of the right hon. gent. he could find nothing but this charge, which in truth amounted to nothing. If it had been brought in as an illustration of something else, as other illustrations had been made use of, then it might have been good for something, but as it stood now it was nothing. What was the letter? It was one by which his hon. friend begged a favour of another person. To be sure; if he had been an older practitioner he might have dated his letter from Stanhope-street, where he lived, and sent it by his servant. That was the whole of the argument with respect to the date from the Treasury Chambers. But the gentlemen on the other side were all aghast at the Treasury Chambers. But general Hewitt would know very well who Mr. Fremantle was, without the mention of the Treasury Chambers, and could no doubt tell, at any rate, what part government would wish him to take. If the letter had been sent to general Hewitt to be handed about, to be sure that would have been another matter. But it was a private letter entirely. Then, what effects had it been attended with? What advantage had it produced? It was not pretended that it had produced any. The fact was known. His hon. friend had sent a letter to general Hewitt, general Hewitt applied to major Davies, and major Davies refused to comply with the request, except he had permission to go from his commander in chief. Did this look like a deep laid plan? The resolution of the house against interference meant the exercise of improper influence; it supposed an order. But here
768
769
Sir H. Mildmay
in explanation said, he had stated only the written evidence. There was much other evidence ready to be produced before the committee, not only with respect to the interference of the treasury, but also of other departments of government, and particularly involving the conduct of the comptroller of the navy.
Mr. Canning
hoped that the right hon. gent. who spoke last on the other side, would permit him to qualify his observation, that nothing was so extraordinary as a motion of this kind proceeding from the quarter in which it originated, by telling him, that it was equally extraordinary that such a motion should meet with such a reception in the quarter in which it was opposed. In the earlier part of his parliamentary life, he remembered motions of parliamentary reform, strongly urged by the right hon.
770
771
772
773
774
Mr. William Adam
considered this as a question of general parliamentary law, which ought to be discussed upon general principles. He thought the concluding doctrines of the right hon. gent.'s speech were not fit to be delivered in that house. He thought, besides, that it was not candid or fair for those gentlemen who were long in the habit of speaking in that house, who had learned the perfect management of their ideas in the delivery of them, and who, in the midst of their speech, could exercise their judgment and deliberation on every sentence they uttered, to lay hold so eagerly of an expression that fell from a member who was utterly inexperienced in public speaking, and who immediately explained that expression which at first sight appeared so objectionable. He did not think it was fair or candid to take such an advantage of a mere slip of the tongue—a lapsus linguæ of a member inexperienced in debate. This was a question which certainly was not to be determined by the peculiar circumstances of Hampshire, but upon the general constitutional law. In the first place, it could not be said that there was any act of parliament which prevented a Secretary of the Treasury from canvassing, as well as any other man, for those persons whose interest he espoused. There was a positive law which disfranchised certain revenue officers, but that did not at all apply to the case of the secretary of the treasury. If there was no act which bore upon the present case, neither was there any resolution of that house. The resolution of 1779 was on very different grounds. It had been resolved, tha
775
Lord. Folkestone
observed that the learned gent. need not have entered into an apology for the hon. secretary, as he was of opinion that the hon. secretary himself had already urged, with some effect, that this letter was not within the law of parliament. Yet he was still of opinion, that this letter, which was but a small part of the grievances stated in the petition, though it could not by itself substantiate a direct charge against the hon. secretary, might, in conjunction with the other accusations stated in the petition, be a very fit subject to be laid before a committee, should the house think fit to adopt the motion. He allowed that the members of government had a right to interfere in elections as private individuals; but he could consider the letter from the secretary of the treasury to the barrack-master-general, in this case, only as an official letter. It was understood as such by those whose conduct it was to influence. He was surprised that the gentlemen on the other side should not assent to the motion, inconsideration of their own honour, of the honour of the county of Hants, and of the house of commons. He understood that much further grounds of crimination were to be brought forward; and particularly a letter from one of the other public boards, signed by the secretary. On this ground he wished to go into the committee.
776
Mr. Johnstone
thought that there could not be a more serious question submitted to the house, as touching its own privileges, than whether a secretary of the treasury should be allowed in his office, perhaps using the seal of office, and sending his dispatch by official messengers, to write to all those under the influence of government, and direct them how they were to give their votes in the election of members of that house. He would readily agree with the hon. and learned member, that the hon. secretary, as well as every other member of government, might lawfully exert themselves for the success of their friends in their individual capacity. But there was not, he thought, a man in the house, nor in the country, who could really believe, that it was merely in his individual capacity that the secretary of the treasury acted, upon the late election for Hampshire. A letter to the barrack-master, to use his influence in his department, could be hardly understood as the mere canvass of an individual. The letter had also in its direction, "On his majesty's service." This added, if any thing could be added, to the official character of the letter written by the secretary of the treasury. He was surprised that this should be mentioned as a single case, for he believed that almost every member in that house knew that this was no detached case. but that letters nearly similar were written, by the same secretary of the Treasury to almost every corner of the kingdom. He could himself have produced a letter which he had seen (if he had been prepared for this debate), which the same secretary of the treasury sent to a poor voter in Yorkshire, whose name he even did not know, and that was in his public capacity. It never could be said, that all these letters were written merely in his individual capacity as Mr. Fremantle. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Tierney), once belonged to an administration that did not exercise that sort of influence, and who did not direct their secretaries of the treasury to write such letters. Under that administration, a parliament was chosen about four years ago, by the free choice of the voters; and it was, probably, because it was so chosen, that the present ministers could not suffer it to exist any longer. He called upon those who wished to prevent the undue influence of government from extending to every county, city, and borough in the county, to vote for going into the committee.
Mr. Bathurst
saw no reason to go into a
777
Mr. Perceval
began by observing, that he had heard in the course of the debate a general expression of surprise: one set of gentlemen were surprised at the manner in which this charge had been brought forward: another at the charge itself. A noble lord, who had just sat down, had freely expressed his surprise at the strange reception this petition had met with from his majesty's ministers in that house; and the noble lord was surprised at such a reception, because the noble lord thought such a line of conduct inconsistent with those professions in favour of free and liberal inquiry into all alledged abuses of a
778
779
780
one fact
781
Lord Howick
remarked that the hon. and learned gent. with the most studious attention, and with the utmost exertion of his ingenuity, could not find any means of fairly censuring his majesty's government. If, however, he had not been able to bring their conduct collectively as an administration before the house, and before the public, he nevertheless had found some opportunity of attacking them in the person of a gentleman connected with his majesty's government, and in so doing, he had made one of the most declamatory speeches that had ever been heard within the walls of that house; he had outdone all his former outdoings, he might be said to have out-Heroded Herod himself. He had repeated what had been upwards of twenty times before repeated in that house—a charge than which, from the generality of its nature, none was more easily made, nor more difficult to be refuted; he had charged him and the persons with
782
783
784
Mr. Rose
said, that he had come down to the house with a determination not to say a word upon the question; but after the personal attack that had been made upon his conduct, it was impossible for him to remain altogether silent. As to the letter read by the noble lord, and addressed by him to a person who had offered his services in favour of the member he would recommend, there
785
786
Mr. Calcraft
repelled the charge which the right hon. gent. had advanced against him. He declared that he never heard that the letter referred to was in the hands of any person, until about two months since, when he was informed by the secretary of the treasury that he had got such a letter, with his answer to it, which he had quite forgot to have ever written. That he had ever used any threat to the magistrates of Christ-church he most solemnly denied, and therefore the right hon. gent. ought not to rely on their information. Indeed, if such informers were to be trusted, they told some strange stories of the right hon. gent. himself. For the only time he saw those magistrates was at the house of a respectable inhabitant of Christ church who was present at the conversation; and they stated that the right hon. gent. told them that he was not in opposition to government, that he never thwarted the measures of ministers, but that on the contrary, he was on the most intimate footing with many of the principal members of the government, and that he was assisting the chancellor of the exchequer (a laugh.) Would the right hon. gent. then advise that credit should be given to such authority? But with reference to the question before the house, the right hon. gent. ought to have had the candour to state that these very magistrates voted, for
787
The Solicitor General
thought it very singular that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) should, as he stated, have formed a resolution not to speak in the course of the debate, considering the important facts which he had alledged, and the written evidence which he had brought with him to support those facts. But really the right hon. gent. could not himself rely on the truth of such allegations, or he would not have neglected, with all the solicitude which he professed and felt to preserve the freedom of election, to bring them forward in the first instance; for they were surely much stronger than the case to which the motion referred. But, in point of fact, it was not to be supposed that the hon. gent. would have declined to put these strong cases in the front line of his attack on ministers, if he thought they could have been maintained, much less that he should have determined not to state them at all, if he had not been irritated by something which fell from his noble friend below him (lord Howick). Therefore this important communication from the right hon. gent. was not owing to an anxiety for public justice, or the maintenance of a free election, but to personal resentment.—After a few words from lord Howick, Mr. Rose, Mr. Asheton Smith, and Mr. Herbert, the house divided, when there appeared,
For the motion
57
Against it
184
Majority against the motion
——127
List of the Minority.
Baker, W.
Huntley, lord,
Barne, S.
Jeffrey, J.
Beach, H.
Jenkinson, C.
Biddulph, M.
Joddrell, H.
Bourne, W. Sturges
Johnstone, G.
Brodrick, hon. W.
Knatchbull, sir E.
Brook, lord
Kynaston, P.
Bruce, lord
Lethbridge, T. B.
Burrell, Sir C. M.
Lascelles. hon. E.
Canning, right hon. G.
Leslie, C. P.
Cartwright, W. R.
Leigh, R. Holt
Castlereagh, lord
Long, right hon. C.
Champernowne, A.
Long, R.
Cowper, hon. E. S.
Magens, M. Dorien
De Ponthieu, J.
Osborn, J.
Fane, J.
Patteson, J.
Fellowes, hon. N.
Peale, sir R.
Fuzhugh, W.
Perceval, hon. S.
Hill. hon. W.
Robinson, hun. F.
788
Rose, right hon. G.
Townshend, hon. W.
Rose, G. H.
Tremayne, J. H.
Ryder, hon. R.
Turton. sir T.
Smith, J.
Vyse, R.
Somerset, lord A.
Ward, R.
Stanhope, S.
Williams, R.
Stewart, hon. E. R.
Wright, J. Atkins
Stopford, lord
Wood, T.
Sutton, C. M.
Tellers.
Strutt, J. H.
Sir H. Mildmay
Taylor, W.
T. A. Smith.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 16.
[SCOTCH JUDICATURE BILL.]
Lord
Grenville
789
790
791
792
Montrose
Eldon
793
Hawkesbury
Ellenborough
Grenville
794
Suffolk
Lord Chancellor
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 16.
[NEW PLAN OF FINANCE.] Lord Castlereagh
rose for the purpose of moving the postponement of his Finance Resolutions from this to some future day. He knew that in considering the Resolutions of the noble lord, (H. Petty) his own must of course come under review, but he hoped that the noble lord, considering the magnitude of the subject, would be disposed to grant some further delay. At all events, he was desirous of entering upon some explanation of the modification of the noble lord's plan, which he had offered the other day, as he was aware that from the short time allowed him for consideration, there might be some objectionable points in it. What he had offered was merely a modification of the noble lord's plan, and he presented it only with a view to relieve the noble lord from the embarrassment to which he must otherwise be exposed. He, however, felt that an explanation was the more necessary, because though from this it should appear that this modification was more objectionable than was at first apprehended, yet the noble lord in pointing out the defects of this, would give an illustration of the defects of his own plan, and combat his own proposition rather than prove the expediency of the modification. He wished therefore that his modification should be clearly understood, though it would not give relief to the extent which he at first supposed. His lordship then acknowledg-
795
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797
Lord Henry Petty
did not think it necessary to enter upon that part of the noble lord's speech, which contained his amended statement. He certainly would not object to any day for the consideration of the noble lord's resolutions, only, he must observe, that they must come under review in discussing the present plan. He wished only to say a few words with respect to the delay solicited by the noble lord. He denied that this was a question of confidence on the one part, and submission on the other. Ministers wished to adopt the plan, not from a vain confidence in themselves, but upon a full and deliberate investigation by parliament. It would be recollected that he had first moved the resolutions two or three weeks ago, that a fortnight was allowed to consider them, that this period ended last Wednesday, and that it was only on that day that the proposal was made for going into the committee. All he asked now was, to vote them in the committee: the report would come up next Wednesday, and they might then be further considered and discussed. They might also be discussed in the different stages of the bill, which it was desirable to carry forward with all reasonable dispatch, that ministers might proceed to the general financial plan. This dispatch was not required from any difficulties arising from the want of an immediate supply, but because it was desirable to proceed to contract for the loan as soon as possible.—The motion of lord Castlereagh for the postponement of his own resolutions was then agreed to.
Lord Henry Petty
moved that the House should resolve itself into a committee to consider further of the Finances of the Country, which was agreed to. On the motion for the Speaker's leaving the chair.
798
Mr. Long
rose. The noble lord, he observed, must recollect that he had told the house that various tables were to be distributed, in order to enable that house to acquire a full and complete view of his plan. Gentlemen had had them but for a short time, and he submitted to the noble lord's candour, whether it was possible even for those who were conversant with subjects of this nature, to make themselves masters of it within a period so limited. It would certainly give more satisfaction if the consideration should be postponed for a few days. However as the house was called upon to discuss the noble lord's plan, he would now offer the few observations that at present occurred to him.
Lord Henry Petty
observed, that the right honourable gentleman had better state these in the committee.
Mr. Long
replied, that he thought it more regular to proceed now, as his objection went rather to the principle of the plan than to the detail. He observed, however, in continuation, that he did not object even to the principle to a certain extent. It might possibly be a fatal error to adhere too pertinaciously to the present plan of taxation, and though he thought that the noble lord's plan was carried to too great an extent, yet he was fully aware of the difficulties attending his situation. He did not, however, consider the difficulty which the noble lord found last session, in finding out proper objects of taxation, as a proof that new taxes could not be raised. But he fully admitted that it was highly expedient to impose no new taxes, for the present, if it could be avoided. This was his opinion, and it was sanctioned by that of the noble lord's predecessor. New taxes to any great extent would occasion a very heavy pressure on the people at present. Then what other resources were there? There were two, namely, the war taxes and the sinking fund. His noble friend (Castlereagh) objected to the plan of compound loans. But whether the borrowing was from the consolidated fund or the war taxes, there must be supplementary loans. To a certain extent, therefore, he saw no objection to borrowing from the war taxes. But he must object to the system of pledging the whole of the war taxes, independent of the property tax, and at last the property tax also. The noble lord ought to borrow only on such as might be supposed to yield their fullest amount in time of peace. He might continue the war for five years, by borrowing
799
800
l
Mr. Tierney rose.
The right hon. gent. who had just sat down, objected to the period of 20 years, and thought that the fittest stage to stop at was 5 years. But his reasoning proceeded on erroneous grounds, when he supposed that this plan was intended to legislate to 20 years. It did no such thing. It merely held out
801
802
803
Mr. Rose
addressed the Committee nearly as follows:—I am aware of the disadvantage under which any one must rise in this committee, to make observations at all unfavourable to a plan which holds out to the country a certain prospect of not being subjected to taxes for 3 years to come; and that for a considerable period, such as shall be necessary will be to no considerable amount. Objections, however, of so serious and important a nature press upon my mind upon the subject that unless they shall be removed by the noble lord, they will compel me, in the discharge of my duty as a member of parliament, to resist at least the immediate adoption of it, especially on the basis proposed; under a persuasion that if, contrary to the present impression on my mind, the scheme shall be found to be a good one, other means than those proposed must be devised for carrying it into effect. High eulogiums were bestowed by the noble lord in the course of his opening Speech, on the system of the Sinking Fund, and on the one for raising large sums within the year, towards carrying on the war; and great praise was very liberally given to the incomparable man (Mr. Pitt) whom this country and the world have had the misfortune to lose, for having established those systems. I
804
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805
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806
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807
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808
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d
s
809
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s
s
s
d
s
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810
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The Revenue 1781, the first year of his Administration was
10,194,000
Taxes of 1784 and 1785 were
938,000
Cained by the Consolidation in 1787, turning Fractions into Integers, Wood and Cambric
85,000
Taxes imposed in 1789
60,000
11,277,000
And the Produce of the same Taxes in the year ending January 1803, was
15,433,000
Leaving a clear gain by improved management of
4,156,000
Of which total, Spirits, Wine, Tobacco, and Post Horse duty, amounted to
1,165,000
811
CHARGE
Interest of Debt
27,466,000
Annual Contribution to Sinking Fund
1,200,000
Charges on Consolidated Fund as in 1805, probably some increase
1,338,000
30,004,000
Interest on Exchequer Bills; it will be much more
300,000
Miscellaneous Services; they will certainly be more
350,000
ARMY.—Two-thirds Lord Sid-mouth's Peace Establishment, adding nothing for Mr. Windham's Plans
7,400,000
NAVY.—Two-thirds of Lord Sid-mouth's Peace Establishment, adding nothing for Lord Howick's increase of Pay
4,864,000
ORDNANCE.—The Peace Vote in 1802 was 919,000
l
500,000
MILITIA AND VOLUNTEERS.—Very difficult to form any Estimate of; I will suppose so very small an amount as
300,000
Barrack Establishment, &c.
Charge
43,718,000
INCOME.
Produce of Taxes stated by Lord H. Petty at 32,000,000
l
33,000,000
Land Tax unredeemed, and Tax on Pensions
1,400,000
Malt
550,000
Lottery
450,000
Imprests
100,000
Income
35,500,000
Deficiency
8,218,000
812
l
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l
l
813
Henry Petty
l
814
"Like you, Sir John! That we can do when all the rest is gone."
815
816
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817
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818
"Anxious the public debt to pay, "Like prudent Fabius, by delay,"
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819
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820
Castlereagh
821
quid pro quo
quid pro quo
822
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823
l
Giles
824
l
l
Castlereagh
Giles
Davies Giddy
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 17.
[MINUTES.]
In the committee of privilege, Mr. Adam was heard on behalf of the claim of Charles Augustus Ellis, an infant, to the barony of Howard de Walden,
825
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 17.
[MINUTES.]
A message from the lords announced their lordships' assent to the Irish Customs Regulation bill.—The house was ordered to be called over on Thursday next.—The following members were appointed by ballot, to try and determine the merits of the petition, complaining of an undue election for the borough of Liskeard: sir Charles Pole, sir Charles Mordaunt, E. R. Portman, esq. John Maitland, esq. Michael Sims, esq. Joseph Cripps, esq. John Hudson, esq. John Leveson Gower, esq. hon. Courtenay Boyle, Richard Trevanion, esq. Edward Long, esq. Charles Edmonston, esq. R. H. Bradshaw, esq.: Nominees, Thomas Creevey, esq. right hon. Charles Long.—The following members were appointed to try the merits of the petition, complaining of an undue election for Sudbury: lord Brooke, Michael Hicks Beach, esq. hon. sir A. Wellesley, hon. Robert Curzon, lord Grenville Leveson Gower, Jas. Graham, esq. hon. W. Augustus Townshend, William Mellish,
826
Sir Charles Mordaunt
reported from the Committee, to whom the petition of
827
828
829
[PETITIONS AGAINST THE SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.]
A Petition of Joseph Marryat, esq. agent for the island of Trinidad, was presented to the house, and read; setting forth, "That the petitioner observes, with inexpressible concern, that a bill is now depending before the house for the Abolition of the Slave Trade; and that the operation of such a measure, if passed into a law, will inevitably ruin many British subjects, who have embarked their property in the island of Trinidad, confiding in the encouragement held out by his majesty's ministers; and that the whole of the sugar estates in the said island are in a state of infancy, all of them having been cleared and put into cultivation since the year 1784, and many of them Since the year 1797, when the island was surrendered to the British arms; and that, in consequence of the encouragement held out to British subjects by his majesty's ministers, purchases were made from the
830
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831
832
833
834
835
836
837
l
838
[SCOTCH CLERGY.] The Lord Advocate
rose, pursuant to notice, to bring forward a motion upon this subject. The noble lord, after some remarks upon the propriety of enabling the clergy to preserve that independence of circumstances, and that decency of appearance which were necessary to secure the due deference of their station, and not unfrequently to give effect to their instructions, called the attention of the committee to the manner in which the clergy were provided for in Scotland. In many instances their provision was extremely inadequate, and his object was to remove that inadequacy. With a view to that, he conceived it necessary that the commission of Teinds, which had heretofore belonged to the court of session, should be transferred to the court of exchequer. The reason for this transfer must be obvious to those who were at all acquainted with the comparative engagements of these two courts. In the court of session there was, in fact, such a crowd of business, that that court had not leisure to attend to the discharge of this commission, while the court of exchequer was fully enabled, without any inconvenience, to execute every thing that appertained to it. The one court was really a bankrupt in its business to the country, notwithstanding the extraordinary activity and diligence of the judges, and particularly that of the chief judge, who was indeed a model of industry; while the other court was comparatively disengaged. The removing therefore the superintendence of teinds to a tribunal which had time to attend to it, was of course desirable. I
839
The Speaker
observed, that as this motion concerned religion, the regular mode of proceeding, according to the standing order, would be to take it into consideration, in the first instance, in a committee of the whole house.—After a few words from lord A. Hamilton, the house resolved into the committee suggested by the Speaker, the resolution proposed was agreed to; and on the house resuming, the chairman obtained leave to bring, in the bill.
Mr. W. Dundas
hoped he should not be represented as hostile to the interests of the Scotch clergy, who were a most respectable body, and for whom no man had a higher respect than he had, if he thought it right to state here that in making a suitable provision for their maintenance, regard ought always to be had to the situation in which the order had for two centuries stood. That situation was that of a middle rank, between the common people and the gentry, moderating the pride of the latter and the turbulence of the former. He thought the application of the revenues of vacant benefices might exceed the moderate and suitable provision he proposed.
840
Lord Archibald Hamilton
considered this a measure of the utmost importance. He had received many communications respecting it, and hoped that time would be allowed to all parties to investigate its merits.
The Lord Advocate
was disposed to accede to any period of delay that could be reasonably expected, and he had no doubt that upon a fair consideration of its merits, such persons as might at present misunderstand it, would be reconciled to its provisions. To afford therefore to any who opposed the measure an opportunity of correcting their errors, and amending their feelings, he proposed if the bill should be read a first time, to move that it be printed, and the second reading fixed for this day three weeks.—The house having resumed, the report was received, and the chairman obtained leave to bring in the bill moved for by the lord advocate.
[SUGAR DRAWBACKS.]
On the motion of lord Henry Petty the house resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider of granting relief to the West India Trade, Mr. Hobhouse in the chair.
Lord H. Petty
stated to the committee, that as the subject which he was about to bring under their consideration, was so generally known, and the principles upon which the measures he proposed to adopt were grounded were so obvious, that it would be necessary for him to trouble the committee with a very few words indeed. The great stock of sugar on hand, arising partly from the situation of the continent, and partly from other circumstances, called for legislative interference, and the house he was sure, would take the necessary measures for that purpose. The object of the resolutions he had to propose was, to encourage the exportation of sugars, and the consumption of rum. The first he proposed to do by allowing bounties, and permitting sugars, which might be taken out of the warehouses for home consumption, to be returned to the warehouses for exportation, with proper provisions to prevent their being taken out again for home consumption, without paying the necessary duties. This regulation would have the effect of inducing foreigners to make this country the depot for the supply of the continent. The other object was to be effected by laying an additional duty on brandy. This was the article of regulation
841
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 18.
[MINUTES.]
A new writ was ordered for the county of Armagh, in the room of viscount Acheson, now earl of Gosford.— Sir Charles Price presented a petition from the governor and company of merchants trading to the South Seas and other parts of America and for encouraging the Fishery, 'taking notice of the bill for repealing so much of an act, made in the ninth year of queen Anne, as vests in the South Sea Company, or Corporation, by the said act erected, the sole and exclusive privilege of carrying on trade and traffick to and from any part whatsoever of South America, or in the South Seas, which now are, or may at any time hereafter be, in the possession of his majesty, his heirs, or successors; and setting forth, that, if the same should pass into a law, it will totally deprive the petitioners of their chartered rights and privileges, which they obtained
842
843
[BARRACK ABUSES.]Mr. Robson,
pursuant to notice, rose to move for certain papers relative to abuses in the barrack department. As the papers he had to move for were precisely the same as those which had been ordered last session, but which, in consequence of the dissolution of parliament, could not be regularly returned to the present parliament, he did not apprehend any objection to his motion. But as it had appeared to some of his friends that he was too anxious in prosecuting the inquiry into this subject, he should make one or two observations in answer to such opinions. Four years had elapsed since he had first recommended and pressed an inquiry into the expenditure department, and since that period six millions had been granted for that service in Great Britain, and two millions for Ireland. If his suggestions had been acted upon, there would have been a saving of two millions effected for the public, out of the sums paid for the hire of buildings, the repairs of buildings, and the rent of temporary barracks. In the Second Report of Military Inquiry there appeared a case which he should refer to in support of this assertion. It was there stated, that a Mr. Page, who became barrack-master at Winchester, in 1801, leaguing with a Mr. Green, a lawyer, bought a house which had been before rented as a barrack, for 63
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844
845
Lord Howick
said, he felt no inclination to withhold any information that could be conveniently produced on this subject; but from the extent and wording of the hon. gentleman's motion, he had some doubts of the practicability of obtaining the returns to it in any reasonable time. It was well worth the attention of the house not to lose sight of this subject. The hon. gentleman had stated, that his motion was precisely the same as one that had been agreed to last session; but on reference to the barrack department, he found that the returns to that motion could not have been prepared without the aid of twenty additional clerks, and for a long period. The house would consider, whether it would be expedient to order the accounts now called for to be produced at the expence of so much time and labour, when the attention of two commissions, the military commission and the other commission appointed at the suggestion of the military commission, for examining persons upon oath, were both employed in investigating this subject. If it should appear that these commissioners were negligent or inattentive, it would be for the house to determine how far it would be right to comply with the motion.
Colonel Barry
said, he could contradict the assertion of the honourable gentleman with respect to the barrack department in
846
Mr. Robson,
in reply, said, that he was persuaded if the noble lord would take the trouble to read the motion at length, he would then see whether or not such an account already existed in any public office, and if it could not be produced in a day or two, he should still insist that the house ought not to separate till his motion was consented to. Such a document ought to be ready by this time, considering the length of the notice given upon the subject. There were no less than 591 established clerks in the Barrack Department, and therefore it could not be alleged that there was not sufficient help to enable the Barrack Master to comply with the request of a member of parliament. Last year he confined his inquiry to one parish or district in the Isle of Wight, and in that place, he had since found that the rents of Temporary Barracks were reduced one half. Barns hired for that purpose, and rated at 2,200
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847
Lord Howick
begged the hon. gentleman and the house distinctly to understand, that he had not refused him any papers, which could, with propriety, be produced. If his motion could possibly have been complied with, without interfering with the commissioners already appointed, nobody could be more ready than he was, to support such inquiries.—The motion was then put from the chair, and negatived without a division.
Mr. Robson
further stated, that he should, upon a future day, submit a motion to the house, that would reach the Barrack Departments upon foreign stations. He hoped the charges abroad, (for instance, in the Island of Sicily) would not be found such as were formerly existing in the Island of Corsica.
[South Sea Trade Bill.]
Lord Temple moved the order of the day for the second reading of the South Sea Trade bill. On the motion that the bill be now read a second time,
Sir Charles Price
observed, that as he had but that day presented a petition from the governor and directors of the South Sea Company against the bill, the petitioners were not prepared with counsel. If, therefore, he should suffer that stage of the bill to pass, he hoped the house would allow them to be heard by counsel, touching their rights, which would be invaded by the bill, in the committee.
Mr. Rose
stated, that though the South Sea Company had not for forty years carried on any trade to the South Sea, it was yet not legal for any ships to trade in that sea, without a license from the company. It had been mentioned to him, that the ships which had sailed for Buenos Ayres on the first accounts of its capture, had sailed without such licenses, in which case the voyage was illegal from the outset; and in this view, the question was an important one, because this circumstance would have a very serious effect upon the policies of insurance on these vessels. Not having seen a line of the bill, he wished to be informed, whether it was proposed to give it a retrospective operation.
Lord Temple
said, he had intended to explain the object of the measure, if even he had not been called upon by the right hon. gentleman. By the charter of the South Sea Company, no vessels could legally be embarked in a trade to the South Sea without a licence from that Company.
848
Mr. Jacob
contended that the South Sea Company had not carried on any commerce for sixty-five years past, since the commencement of the war that began in the year 1740. Antecedently to that period, they had carried on a little trade to South America, by which they lost more than they gained; the expences of their factories at Carthagena, Porto Bello, Panama, and Lima, having exceeded the profits of their commerce; so that there had remained to them but a small part of the assiento contract. The South Sea Company, therefore, could not benefit by this trade. It was besides impossible that they should, as they had no capital; and before they could again embark in that trade, it would be necessary for them to come to parliament to be enabled to raise a fresh capital. Though they could not benefit by the trade to South America, a trade which was extremely beneficial to the country had risen upon the ruins of this trade, namely, the Southern whale fishery trade, which afforded a considerable nursery for British seamen. The company came, therefore, with a very bad grace to parliament, to press a right which they could derive no benefit from, to the exclusion of a trade from which the public would derive advantage. But by the act of 1802, all persons had a right to trade to the Western coast of South America, without any license, either from the South Sea
849
Mr. Tierney
stated, on the part of the East India Company, that they had only been apprehensive that the trade, when permitted, might be extended to other parts; for instance, to China; these were in the contemplation of the government, and, when they had received satisfactory assurances that the trade should not be extended beyond its precise limits, they had ceased to have any objection to the bill.
Sir Charles Price
stated, that the object of the petitioners was to have their right ascertained, and for that purpose they had presented themselves to the house, without meaning any opposition to the whole principle of the bill.—The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be printed. On the motion that it be committed on Monday,
Mr. Rose
now that he understood that the bill was to have a retrospective operation, approved of it so far as related to the covering the vessels from capture; but with regard to its retrospective operation as to the policies of insurance, he had some doubts. The underwriters had a legal right to decline the obligation of the policies, and though it would not be very honourable in them to take advantage of that circumstance, he did not think it clear that parliament should take such right from them, if they should think proper to act upon it.—The bill was ordered to be committed on Monday.
[SUGAR DRAW BACKS].Mr. Hobhouse
reported from the committee of the whole house, to whom it was referred to consider of the several acts relating to the Drawbacks and Bounties on Sugar exported; and also, of an act made in the 43d of his present majesty, for granting to his majesty, until 12 months after the ratification of the definitive treaty of peace, certain additional duties of excise in Great Britain, the Resolutions which the committee had directed
850
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[ADDITIONAL DUTY ON FOREIGN BRANDY.]
The house having resolved it-
851
Lord Henry Petty
conformably with his notice of yesterday, moved the following Resolutions, 1. "That towards raising the supply granted to his majesty, an additional duty of 2
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d
s
Mr. Rose
observed, that, the duly on brandy was at present 13
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d
s
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d
Lord H. Petty
stated, that the system of rewards to vigilant and active revenue officers, would have a very beneficial effect, and that the West India merchants were of opinion, that the addition to the duty on foreign spirits would afford them relief.
General Gascoyne
was of opinion, that this additional duty on brandy continued, with the preference to be given by the public boards to the consumption of rum, would be of material assistance to the West India trade.—The resolutions were then agreed to.
[FREEHOLD ESTATES BILL.]The Solicitor-General
moved the order of the day for the second reading of the bill for making the Freehold Estates of persons
852
Mr. W. Herbert
rose with regret to oppose any Measure brought forward by the hon. and learned gent. who was the author of the bill. He lamented that he had not heard the statement of that hon. and learned member, when he obtained leave to bring in this measure; but he had read the bill since it had been printed, and objected to it because it went to alter the whole of the law of landed property in this country. If he understood it right, its object was to make all cases of simple contract debts of men who should die in debt, without making any will providing for such debts, a charge upon their real estates. This would change the whole law of landed property, which was coeval with the constitution. There were various ways of charging landed property by mortgages and other legal instruments, and there were sufficient processes for recovering of simple contract debts. Whenever any change bad been made in the common law, it had been generally for the worse. He did not see any urgent occasion for the alteration now proposed, much less on so loose and vague a ground as to provide for simple contract debts. It would have the effect of lowering the value of freehold property. Another objection he felt to the measure was, that it would interfere with the elective franchise, which depended altogether on freehold property: and if it was to be made liable for simple contract debts, in cases of small freeholds, the heir might be thereby deprived of one of the most valuable of his rights. He should have no objection to the measure, if it was to be confined to the cases of persons who die suddenly or violently; for he was sure no honest man who had time to make a will would neglect to provide for his debts. On these grounds, he felt himself inclined to oppose the bill.
Mr. Fellowes
thought that the bill should extend to copyhold as well as to freehold property, because in many cases the freehold and copyhold property were so blended, that it might be difficult to sell the one, without, at the same time time, selling the other.
The Master of the Rolls
thought the hon. gent. who began the debate, was right in considering this bill as making a very material change in the law of freehold property. The law as it at present stood, es-
853
854
The Solicitor General
would have been extremely glad if the opposition then made had been made before, because he would in that case have had the advantage of knowing the objections that were felt to a measure, which he conceived to be of the highest importance. He must say that it would have been more fortunate if he had heard the objections stated by the right hon. and learned gent. who had spoken last, sooner, because, though he was convinced, that every hon. member was actuated in making objections to any measure by the purest motives, it would have been particularly desirable for him to have heard the objections just stated earlier, both because he had endeavoured to collect the opinion of his right hon. and learned friend on the bill, and had submitted a copy of it to him, and because he could then have given an answer that might have been more satisfac-
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Mr. Canning
observed, that though feelings of veneration for every institution of our ancestors ought not to be carried to excess and bigotry, they ought to operate so far as to prevent any rash alterations. Innovations of this nature ought to be regarded with the utmost jealousy, and to be examined with the utmost scrupulousness. Without meaning any disrespect to the hon. and learned gent. who proposed this bill, (for as to his abilities there could be but one opinion) he must say, that it was in his own opinion, and that of many others, that a measure of this nature ought rather to have originated in the other house, where it might have, in the first stages, undergone the revision of the great law magistrates. This ought to have been the case, though the hon. and learned gent. had heard of no difference of opinion on the subject; but if there was a difference of opinion existing there that point well deserved the hon. and learned gent's consideration. The particular object of this bill was to meet the cases of fraud with regard to freehold estates, but he admitted that with regard to copyhold and entailed estates the, room for frauds would still be left open. But he insinuated that this was only meant as a preliminary step to similar alterations with regard to copyhold and entailed estates. In this view he had strong objections to the bill. The hon. and learned gent. admitted that one door would be left open for fraud in the purchase of copyhold estates; he would ask him whether previous debts were intended to supersede subsequent settlements of freehold estates, and to be good against purchasers? If they were not, the object of the bill would be evaded; if they were, then you would only be doing away one opportunity for fraud, in order to create a stronger. The hon. and learned gent. had stated, that this was becoming in a great degree a commercial country, and that in that respect its situation was become different from what it was when this law with regard to property had been established. This was certainly true, but though he felt well disposed towards the comer-
858
pro tanto
The Solicitor General,
in explanation, denied his having said that it was his intention to proceed further. He had merely stated, that it might possibly appear proper to parliament to make other alterations in the course of time. He had no personal object whatever in this measure. His sole motive for bringing it forward, was a conviction of the benefits which the public would derive from it.
Mr. Canning
disclaimed having imputed any personal motive to the hon. and learned gentleman.
The Attorney General
supported the bill
859
Mr. Perceval
was, upon the whole, rather disposed to favour the bill, for the object of his hon. and learned friend was one which ought certainly to be promoted, if that could be done without injury to the proprietors of land, and he was glad that there seemed a disposition on all sides to canvass this business more maturely. The very reason that rendered it proper to pause upon it was that which the hon. and learned gent. (the Attorney General) had urged in its favour. He had expressed his surprize that such a measure had not been proposed before. This might be owing to some difficulties attending it which were not at present observed, and therefore it was proper to proceed with caution. The cases of copyhold estates and of estates sold subsequent to debts contracted, mentioned by his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Canning) would be very material difficulties. However, the bill had so much merit, with regard to persons dying and leaving their debts
860
Mr. Morris
observed; that the case of subsequent settlements mentioned by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Canning) over the way, had been already provided for by the statute of Elizabeth. The case of primogeniture was not at all like the present. No remarkable grievance arose from that. He was glad to find that the right hon. and learned gent. below (the Master of the Rolls) had not given this measure a decided and deliberate opposition.—The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow se'nnight.
[NEW PLAN OF FINANCE.]Mr. Hobhouse
brought up the report of the committee on the Finances of the country. On the motion that the resolutions be read,
Mr. Sturges Bourne,
suggested the propriety of delaying the further consideration of this important question, which went to subvert the principles on which the whole financial system of the country; and that, too, without the house being in possession of several necessary documents. There was no estimate on the table of the produce of the war taxes, and on this subject the house had only the assertion of the noble lord, which, however respectable, was not of itself a sufficient authority. At that period of the night, too, he could hardly think that the noble lord would press the discussion. What necessity was there for haste? If the measure was to be followed by taxes, it. might be expedient to lose no time in passing the bills through the house; but this was not the case; and with respect to the loan, the loan of last year was contracted for at a much later period, and he was satisfied that no inconvenience could arise from delaying it for at least two months. He had no party views in what he stated, but he was convinced, that the house had not had time to render themselves competent to decide on this momentous question. If, however, they were to be compelled to come to a decision, he for one felt it impossible to vote for the first and second resolutions, because they went to mortgage the war taxes, many of which would not be available in time of peace, and many others, which policy ought to induce us at that period to repeal or modify. Of this latter class, were the duties on spirits and tea. Justice also demanded that the ton-
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Mr. H. Thornton
requested to know, whether it was intended that the debate should proceed at that hour?
Lord H. Petty
observed, that the debate was last week fixed for that evening. If at a late hour, it should appear that there were some gentlemen yet desirous of giving their opinions, it would be in the judgment of the house to adjourn the further discussion of the question.
Mr. Rose
could see no possible objection to a postponement of the debate. On a measure of such immense consequence he could not think that the noble lord would press the commencement of a discussion at between 8 and 9 o'clock. Many gentlemen, he for one, were anxious to deliver their opinions, and there would be no chance of ending the debate that night. All he wished for, was a postponement until to-morrow; and he had no doubt that the hon. gent. (Mr. Whitbread), who had a motion which stood for to-morrow, would readily agree to put it off.
Lord H. Petty
observing that his hon friend was not present, declared that he could not answer for him on that subject, but that he had strong reason to believe, that as he had three times postponed his motion, he would not consent to any further delay. If, however, the hon. gent. oppo-
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Lord Howick
expressed the same opinion as his noble friend, as the motion of his hon. friend was one of considerable importance (the Poor laws), and would not conveniently admit of further procrastination.
Lord H. Petty
at length left it to the discretion of the gentlemen on the other side, whether the report should be discussed now or to-morrow, and the consideration of the report was accordingly postponed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 19.
[MINUTES.]
The royal assent was given by commission to the Irish Treasury Bills bill, the Irish Militia Service bill, the Irish Gunpowder Importation bill, the Canada Yarn bill, the Seamen and Soldiers' Seduction bill, the Annual Indemnity bill, the Controverted Elections Trial Amendment bill, the Cape of Good Hope Trade Regulation bill, the Barrack Commissioners bill, Bowyer's Lottery bill, and Lord de Dunstanville's Indemnity bill. The commisioners were the lord chancellor, lords Walsingham and Auckland.—The Newfoundland Fish Importation bill, was read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 19.
[MINUTES.]
At four o'clock the house proceeded to ballot for a committee to take into consideration the petition complaining of an undue return for Rochester. Soon after, Mr. White appeared at the bar with the reduced list, which was as follows; F. C. Cooper, esq. R. Dawson, esq. H. Shelley, esq. sir R. Barclay, bart. S. Stevens, esq. C. Cockrell, esq. E. Bastard, esq. J. Blackburn, esq. J. Brogden, esq. C. Moore. esq. H. Bankes, esq. J. Asdell, esq. C. O'Hara, esq. Nominees, Hon. J. W. Ward, M. A. Taylor, esq.—In consequence of the absence of a professional person, the house could not proceed to a ballot for a committee on the Down Patrick petition; it therefore necessarily stood over until to-morrow, when it was ordered, on the motion of lord Howick, that the house should be called over.—A new writ was ordered for the
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[POOR-LAWS BILL.] Mr. Whitbread
rose and spoke as follows:—Mr. Speaker; I rise to submit to the consideration of this house, one of the most interesting propositions which even occupied the attention of any deliberative assembly upon earth. I wish to engage you in an attempt at the solution of the most difficult of all political problems; namely, how to reduce the sum of human vice and misery, and how to augment that of human happiness and virtue amongst the subjects of this realm.—Sir, this attempt has been often and fruitlessly made; nevertheless I do not think the success of it impossible. However great the difficulty, it is our duty to endeavour at least to overcome it.—Sir, I will not now detain the house by an investigation of the original constitution of society; or enter into the abstract right of man to the succour and support of his fellow creatures. Whether that right exist or not; as individuals, we could never refuse relief to innocence, or even to guilt in distress; neither, as part of a legislature, could we ever be brought to say that such assistance shall not be attainable through the medium of the law. More than two centuries have elapsed, since after a succession of efforts, tending to the same end, there was embodied upon your statute-book, the great Christian principle, "that you should do unto others as you would that others should do unto you." What theory could be more delightful? As a state, you undertook to feed the hungry—to clothe the naked—to visit the sick—to protect the fatherless—to assist the widow—to find employment for the healthy and necessitous—and to compel work from the dissolute and the idle.—Sir, these plans were devised during the reign of Elizabeth; the glories of which are still vivid in the annals of our history. They were projected and carried into execution under the auspices of some of the wisest statesmen that ever presided in the councils of any country. They were not the sudden production of one particular period. They had occupied the attention of the legislature during the whole of that long and prosperous reign. From the 5th to the 14th—to the 18th—to the 39th down to the 43d of the queen, we find a constant succession of statutes, bearing testimony to the constant direction of the care of the government towards that object: till, at last, the work was complete.—But, sir, as if it were to confound the speculations of human wisdom,
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Note on the Scotch Poor-Laws, by Mr. Horner; Feb
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there prevailed amongst you a general system of national education? Sir, I think none of these things could have happened, where the light of knowledge and of truth had universally beamed. Sir, I have contended for parliamentary reform in this house, and I am still a sincere and decided friend to the reformation of parliament: but I do not believe that any scheme could be devised, so totally unobjectionable in its means, and so entirely efficacious to its object of increasing the purity of this house, as the general instruction of your people. Nothing could so tend to diffuse the principles and practice of Christianity. You translate the Scriptures into the vulgar tongue, that all may have an opportunity of knowing, weighing, and following the divine precepts they contain. Open the eyes of your people, that they may read what you have so written, and your work is done.—Sir, I have the greatest authorities of the living and the dead, to recommend what I propose. Adam Smith, Mr. Malthus, the right hon. gent. opposite to me (Mr. Rose), the benevolent editor of the tracts which come from the Society for bettering the Condition of the Poor, all agree in recommending national education as the first step towards the alleviation of your burthens, and the amelioration of the condition of your people. Added to this, we have example and experience before our eyes. Look at Scotland. See her enviable state with regard to her poor. That country is the theme of panegyric amongst all who have visited her, on account of the situation of her labouring classes; and yet she has your system of poor-laws
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Simul Alba nautis Stella refulsit, Defluit saxis agitatus humor; Concidunt venti, fugiuntque nubes: Et minax (sic Dî voluêre) ponto Unda recumbit.
Such was the effect of education upon
has fallen into a very remarkable mistake, when he intimates his opinion, that the English system of assessment was borrowed from the Scotch act of 1579. On the contrary, the latter is so closely copied from the English statute, that the execution of the act in country parishes is committed 'to 'them that sall be constitute justices be the king is commissioners;' and justices of the peace were not introduced into Scotland till 1689. It is also worthy of being remarked, that the only general regulation, which the Scotch legislature in 1579, did not copy from the 14th of Eliz. is that which directs the surplus of the poor's fund, to be employed in providing work for able-bodied vagrants.—We learn from the preamble of an act of the year 1592, cap. 149, that the system of the act 1579, for the maintenance of the poor had already been carried partially into execution. The act 1597, c. 272, to obviate the want of justices, committed the execution of the act 1579, in country parishes upon the kirk sessions.—In the three next acts, 1617, c. 10, 1663, c. 16, and 1672, c. 18, there are various provisions for a scheme of erecting workhouses for vagrants; which fortunately proved abortive. The second of those statutes, however, contains a most important enactment, with respect to the mode of assessing the heritors and their tenants; one half of the rate being ordained to be paid by the heritors of the parish, and the other half by the tenants and possessors.—The last period of Scotch enactments relating to the poor, is the reign of king William. During the severe dearth, which lasted from 1692 to 1699, (the
seven ill years
Decisions of the Court of Session
Note on the Scotch Poor-Laws, by the Rev. Sir Henry Moncrieff
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"are levied according to the valued rent of the lands, the one half being paid by the heritors, and the other half by the tenants, The cess-books of the county ascertain the valued rent.—But the practice in large parishes, where there are towns and villages, is different. The assessments are there made according to the real annual rents of lands and houses, a fourth part being deducted to the proprietors of houses for reparations; the half of the assessment is paid by the proprietors or landlords, and the other half by the tenants or possessors.—The assessments are made annually, by a joint meeting of the heritors and kirk session of the parish, held, by act of parliament, on the 1st Tuesday of August, or 1st Tuesday of February, who appoint a collector who makes a new rental each year of lands and houses.—The kirk sessions are, by law, the legal guardians of the poor, and have authority to manage and distribute the funds provided for their maintenance; but the heritors of each parish have a controul over their management; are entitled to inspect their accounts, and sometimes up point committees of their own number to act along with them. In general, however, the kirk sessions manage alone, and have the confidence of the country, and in all cases they do their duty, without any remuneration whatsoever.—Where there are parish workhouses, the management is commonly entrusted to the kirk session and heritors jointly: and in some of the great towns, to the magistrates, ministers, and others connected with the town councils or corporations.—The necessitous have a legal claim to relief, according to a rule, sanctioned by repeated decisions of the court of session, which gives a pauper a title to the charity of any parish in which he has resided 3 years, supporting himself during that period by his own industry.—There is a law relating to the settlement of paupers, which entitles the managers for the poor, in each parish, to send to the next parish any pauper who has not acquired the residence which entitles him to their charity; and he can be legally conveyed from parish to parish till he reaches the place of his nativity, or the parish in which he has acquired a title. This is sometimes done: but the practice is not general, or even frequent. As a pauper being a pauper when he comes into a parish, or before he has resided on Isis industry years, never acquires a title, he is commonly left to find his way to his own parish, or to depend on private charity.—The master of a parochial school is not bound to teach the children gratis. Sometimes the children of paupers are sent to him, at the expence of the kirk sessions; but he is always entitled to his fee. There are many charity schools, supported by public societies or private benefactions, which the children attend gratis: but fees are always due to parochial schools.—By an act of parliament lately passed, 1803, the heritors of each parish, who have property to the extent of 100
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† Extract of a letter from Mr. Lancaster to Mr. Whitbread, March 2, 1807.
‡ Extract of a letter from Dr. Bell to Mr. Whitbread, Feb. 26, 1807.
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Sir, I might here dismiss the subject of education altogether; and indeed, I reluctantly call your attention to one illustration of the advantages to be derived from it, and the great disadvantages attending its total absence from any country when I mention the state of the poor in Ireland; there are in that country no poor-laws, to which the misery and wretchedness of the lower orders of society can be traced. But they have no instruction. In Scotland they have instruction, and therefore they are contented and happy, and do not use the poor-laws which they have. Sir, I perfectly well know, that my noble friend, who is, fortunately for her interests, at the head of the goverment of that country, is a decided friend to general instruction, and that he is a patron of the improved plan I have discussed, as well as of the person who carries it into effect. I know that the other members of his majesty's councils for the more immediate government of that country, are doing their endeavours towards the instruction of that brave, patient, and generous people. I have also learnt with the greatest pleasure, that the people themselves are eagerly desirous of availing themselves of the light which I hope will speedily and abundantly shine upon them. With a combination of circumstances so fortunate, we are entitled to expect the happiest results. Sir, the next step which I would recommend to the house to take towards the desireable end of exalting the character of the labourer, is to encourage him to become possessed of property, that he
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Mr. Rose
thought the hon. gent. entitled to the highest degree of gratitude for his able view of a subject of this magnitude; but he feared the object of the hon. gent. would not be effected, without a general plan for the employment of the poor.
Mr. Whitbread
feared that labour was not practicable on the plan alluded to by the right hon. gent.; but he wished the overseers to have a power of contracting for such labour as could be made productive, and to carry it towards the fund for their maintenance. National employment would be a losing and indeed impracticable scheme.
Mr. Rose
stated, that till within these few years the poor had been employed in a very useful manner in Lincolnshire, where the employment failed at length from the deficiency of that private attention which alone could keep it alive. He recommended to the hon. gent. to divide his bill into two or more bills. It might go to the quarter sessions in its present shape, but the division ought to take place before putting the matters to the final sense of the house. Mr. Pitt's bill had failed chiefly by being too comprehensive.
Mr. Lee Keck
stated, that in Leicestershire there was much extraparochial land, the holders of which had voluntarily subjugated themselves to the county rates not wishing to be exempt from their fail share of the burthens borne by their neighbours.
Mr. Calvert
thought the hon. gent. entitled to the gratitude of the country for his able consideration of a subject of such magnitude. He saw much good in the hon gent.'s plan, and little that was not beneficially practicable.
Mr. Ellison
maintained, that no blame was due to the gentlemen of Lincoln, for the failure of the plan for the employment of the poor. The plan was impracticable and it was a delusion to expect much from it. The hon. gent. had taken an able view of this very extensive subject, but he feared the complexity of the hon. gent.'s plan would lead to more difficulty than what he wanted to get rid of. The act of Elizabeth contained the great principles of every good system; and all that was required was to simplify and improve the system established upon those principles. The great man whose loss the house deplored, and would deplore for ever (Mr. Pitt), had failed in an attempt to introduce such a
920
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
allowed the existence of every grievance which the hon. gent. ascribed to the present poor-laws. He was not prepared to say, how far the present plan contained adequate remedies. The opinion of the justices could not be collected at the next quarter session, and it would be material to the facility of collecting that opinion, to divide the bill into three or four parts.
Lord Howick
said, there could be but one feeling with respect to the ability with which his hon, friend had recommended this great subject to the house, and the zeal which he had bestowed in making himself perfectly master of it. However, his hon. friend, had no intention to press the business forward precipitately, but it was desirable to apply a remedy to the existing evils as soon as possible. He would express no opinion of its merits farther, than that there was much in it that he approved, and if there was any thing in respect to which he differed, he would be ready to yield to his hon. friend who had considered the subject with much greater attention. In every discussion the measure would be amended. On the whole, much benefit was to be derived from the plan; and he hoped, that if not the whole, at least, it would be executed in the principal parts during the present session.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
wished the bill to be in the hands of the country gentlemen at the assizes, as well as the quarter sessions. It would thus meet a superior consideration. Without meaning to hurry the hon. gent., he hoped that before the next month it would be ready to be transmitted.
Mr. Whitbread
said, that before Monday, he meant to present the bill, which he would expedite to the hands of the magistrates by all means in his power.
Sir J. Newport
thanked the hon. gent. for so essential an improvement of the poor-laws, an improvement which rendered those laws more nearly applicable to Ireland, where the condition of the poor was such as to requite immediate relief; though the poor-laws, as they stood at present, had been universally rejected by the gentlemen of Ireland. The houses of industry in Ireland were cheaply and well administered, and had afforded a comfort-
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Mr. Bathurst
recommended to have a great number of copies of the bill printed, and to have them circulated through the country, with every facility of conveyance that government could give. The bill would be better considered altogether, in the first instance; it might afterwards be divided; and if the whole of it should not pass this session, he hoped some parts of it at least would, as many parts of it would be highly beneficial.
Mr. Whitbread
said he should be pleased if any part of the labour he had bestowed on the subject, should meet the approbation of the house; but he would not lose sight of any amendment he thought requisite, till he should have effected it.—Leave was given to bring in a bill, and Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Pym, Mr. Brand, Mr. Lee Antoine, and Mr. Horner, were ordered to prepare and bring in the same.
[NEW PLAN OF FINANCE.] Lord Henry Petty
moved the order of the day, for taking into further consideration the report from the committee of the whole house, to whom it was referred to consider farther of the Finances of the country.
Sir James Pulteney
contended that it was erroneous to suppose any violation of faith towards the stockholder in diverting the sinking fund. It was not alone from the quantity of sinking fund brought into the market, but from the proportion of the sinking fund to the debt untouched within the year. The price of stocks was at its highest in 1790, when the 3 per cents. were at 96, and at that time there was scarcely any sinking fund; the price of stocks was therefore not proportioned to the amount of the sinking fund. The quantity of capital to be invested in stock was always the best security for keeping up the price. It was agreed that the accumulation of the sinking fund should stop at some time; he thought it should stop now. The accumulation of debt would thus be prevented, and the situation of the stockholder not deteriorated. Then the hon. baronet went into a series of calculations to shew the effect of the noble lord's plan and his own. He contended, that the comparison was much against the noble lord's plan. A great accumulation of debt would be avoided, and the war taxes would be preserved un-
922
Mr. H. Thornton
deprecated equally the continuance of heavy taxation, and the immediate invasion of the sinking fund. On these considerations he was inclined to approve of the noble lord's plan, and also because the most maturely weighed of the plans brought forward on the other side approximated very nearly to that of the noble lord. He complained of the statement of the noble lord opposite (Castlereagh), that in his calculation he had omitted the charge of the yearly loan of 11 millions, which would require the payment of interest for 14,000,000
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Mr. Johnstone
could not hope to make
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Mr. Bankes
thought that the hon. member who had just sat down, had taken the sinking fund into his calculation two ways both as a means of redeeming the debt, and as a fund applicable to the service of the year. There was a fallacy, therefore, in his reasoning. If the government was only to provide for the interest of the excess of the loan, over the amount of the sinking fund, and to provide for the remainder out of the proceeds of the sinking fund, that fund would be stationary during the war. Should the war last ten years, its progress would therefore be interrupted, and the redemption of the loans would be effected in 55 instead of 45 years. He objected to all the projects that had been proposed as substitutes for that of the noble lord opposite because they all were founded on the principle of invading the sinking fund, which was sacred, and not to be touched, except in cases of extreme necessity. The plan of the noble lord afforded more prospects to the country than any other, because it was to release it from taxation for 3 years without diminishing its resources; and these 3 years were likely to be more important, than the same number of years in any period of our history. This relief to the country was wise, in the hope that Providence, who had so often signally assisted this country, would again interfere in its behalf. He did not think it wise, however of the noble lord, to have stated the expenditure of the country so low as 32,000,000
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Mr. Rose
observed, that the hon. gent,
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Mr. Corry
observed, that the right hon. gent. had impugned the plan of the noble lord, on the ground that the taxes would not be productive during peace. But if so, the parliament would be bound to make good any deficiency that might arise, or
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Mr. Perceval
at any other time and under any other circumstances, would have been disposed to trouble the house more at length, than at that hour of the night he was inclined to do. When the bills should be brought in, on the resolutions of the noble lord, he should have sufficient opportunities of delivering his sentiments upon them, and he should feel it his duty to oppose them in every stage. The taxes proposed to be continued by the first resolution, were represented as not likely to be productive in peace, and to this it was answered, if they were unproductive, parliament would be bound to make them good. If they were to be made permanent only with a view to have them afterwards repealed, this would be to make the act of the legislature speak a language which it did not mean. In the same way the property tax, which the house had been given to understand, in the opening speech of the noble lord, was to be repealed at the end of the war, had been in his subsequent explanations represented as liable to be continued in peace, yet the second resolution pledged the house positively to the repeal of the war tax the moment the war should cease. The first resolution was to pledge the war taxes, which were afterwards to be repealed; and the second resolution declared, that the property tax, which was likely to be continued, should be repealed. If the taxes mentioned in the first resolution were to be repealed, why enact their continuance? and if the property tax was to be continued, why resolve that it should be repealed? He thought that it was improper in the house to legislate for futurity. These observations he made with a view to press the suggestion of his right hon. friend that the provision for the loan should be charged upon any fund, and the discussion of the noble lord's plan deferred to next session. It had been said, that the duties, if appropriated, might afterwards be repealed; and this he looked upon as the best argument that had been urged in favour of the measure. The plan of the noble lord might be very good, and his majesty's ministers might have bestowed all due attention upon it, but yet the house
929
Lord Henry Petty
maintained that the resolutions contained no pledge whatever for the continuance of any particular tax. The object of the plan was to provide for the exigencies of a protracted war, and at the same time, by abstaining from imposing fresh taxes, to relieve the country, to repair its strength and recruit its resources, whilst its operation would provide the means of resorting again to taxation, if that must be the case, a resort which would still remain, even supposing the plan totally to fail. His lordship entered into a comparison of the plan he had proposed, and those suggested on the other side, and contended that his plan had this great advantage, that it would operate to increase the sinking fund, in a larger proportion to the debt, up to a certain point when its excesses were to be taken, whilst the plans proposed on the other side would operate to increase considerably the debt, and leave the sinking fund as it now stood. He proposed, after a certain accumulation of the sinking fund, to appropriate the excesses; but they would attack that fund immediately. He remembered a story of a man who said he had a sure method of curing sheep of all disorders, and that was by cutting their throats; so gentlemen on the other side would get at the sinking fund by immediately taking it, and this constituted the boasted simplicity of their plans. His plan, on the contrary, by the proportionable magnitude of the sinking fund, would insure to the stockholder a certain market for his stock, and instead of mortgaging all the resources of the country, as some hon. gentlemen had contended, there would, if it continued to operate, be a sum of 25,000,000
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Lord Castlereagh
contended that the system before the house was a much greater infraction of the act of 1786, than that which had been done in 1802, which had been alluded to in the course of the debate. After touching on several other points, his lordship observed, that he would speak more fully on the subject next Monday, when the resolutions which he had submitted to the house would be under consideration.
Mr. Huskisson
had heard much of the
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Mr. Vansittart
pledged himself to prove upon the same occasion, that there was no inconsistency between the plan of his noble friend, and the acts referred to by the hon. gent.
Mr. Canning
declared his most decided objection to the whole principle of the measure: at that late hour he should not trespass upon the time of the house, but should reserve himself for a more convenient opportunity.—The question was then loudly called for, and the resolutions read a second time, and agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 20.
[MINUTES.]
This day the following members were chosen by ballot to try the merits of the Downpatrick election :—R. P. Scudamore, esq. B. Cook, esq. W. M. Pitt, esq. hon. W. Howard, D. Giddy, esq. A Strahan, esq. lord Althorpe, F. J. Wilder, esq. D. P. Coke, esq. hon. C. Herbert, J. Wharton, esq. hon. W. Broderick, Thos. Kemp, esq. nominees, H. Martin, esq. C. W. Wynne, esq.—Mr. Grenville (from the commissioners for executing the office of lord high admiral) acquainted the house, that their lordships having judged it expedient that captain sir Home Popham should be tried by a court martial for having quitted the Cape of Good Hope, for the purpose of attacking the Spanish settlements in the Rio de la Plata, without having received any direction or authority whatever for that purpose, had accordingly issued their warrant to the marshal of the high court of admiralty for taking him into custody; that, as captain sir Home Popham is a member of this house, their lordships had thought it a respect due to the house, to inform them of his commitment, and to lay before them a copy of the warrant, by virtue of which he is now in custody. And Mr. Grenville delivered in at the table, a copy of the warrant to the marshal of the admiralty,
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[MUTINY BILL—ROMAN CATHOLICS.]Lord Howick
moved the reading of the order for the second reading of the mutiny bill on Tuesday next, with a view, as the noble lord stated, to move the postponement of this order to a future day. The propriety of this postponement in the absence of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) would, he had no doubt, be readily admitted. But there were other objects which rendered further delay necessary, in order to afford time for the preparation of some additional clauses which it was intended to bring forward. It would be remembered by many members, that in the year 1793, a clause was inserted in the
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Mr. Yorke
asked, whether it was likely that the discussion would be brought forward upon the day mentioned by the noble lord, or whether it would be postponed any further?
Lord Howick
saw no reason to apprehend that any farther delay would be necessary. The noble lord moved, that the order for the second reading of this bill should be fixed for Tuesday se'nnight.—Ordered accordingly.
[WESTMINSTER ELECTION PETITION.] Mr. Sheridan
rose, pursuant to notice, to move that the order for the appointment of a committee to consider the petition upon this subject should be discharged, with a view to move for the further postponement. The right hon. gent. was so much of opinion, from what had passed when last this question was before the house, that a motion for further postponement would be immediately assented to if required, that he confessed he heard with considerable surprise of the intention to oppose the motion, particularly on the part of the noble lord (Folkestone), by whom a similar proposition was last submitted to the house. Had he happened to have stood in the predicament of being unable to bring forward such a motion, he really thought that the noble lord would have been ready to propose it himself. At least he felt that he should be warranted, from the noble lord's former language and conduct, in relying upon his readiness to second him in this proposition. Of the grounds of this reliance, and the justice of his opinion, the house would be able to judge from a short review of the history of the case. When the petition before the house was presented, which was about the 23d of December, the first or second day after any petitions could be received, the noble lord announced the desire of the petitioners that the earliest day possible should be appointed for the bal-
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Lord Folkestone
wished that he could return the compliment which the right hon. gent. had thought proper to bestow upon his accuracy; but he differed from him entirely as to his report of the conversation which took place on a former day. So far from the right hon. gent. having expressed a wish for further postponement, he had treated the proposition at the time as an omen of the petitioner's total abandon-
935
Lord Howick
thought the house should be always jealous of motions of this nature, and decide upon them with the utmost impartiality. With regard to what had passed on this subject on a former occasion, he could not hesitate to say that the impression upon his mind, from what the noble lord had said, was precisely the same as that stated by his right hon. friend. He would enter into no contest with the noble lord as to accuracy of memory, or as to the precise words he used: but most certainly he understood the express condition of his
936
Lord Folkestone,
in explanation, again denied that he made any pledge.
Attorney-General
Mr. Perceval
could not speak with confidence as to the words used in the conversation which took place when this subject was last before the house, for his attention to it was not so diligent as to justify any reliance on his memory. But, from the general impression on his mind, he could not say that he understood the noble lord had made any such pledge as that referred to. Nor did the right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) appear to him to have at all pressed any point at to counsel; for he spoke rather in an air of triumph, as if he relied on the total abandonment of the petition, and that the house would hear no more of it. The absence of counsel on the circuit he thought very insufficient ground to allege for the postponement of a question of this nature; for upon that ground all the petitions before the house might be postponed.
Mr. Peter Moore
regretted that the liberality of his right hon. friend should have prompted him in a former instance to consent to the postponement of this measure. But he recollected well the condition upon which that consent was given, although this condition seemed now so entirely forgotten by the noble lord. With
937
Lord Folkestone
contended that the learned gent. (the attorney-general) was not warranted from any part of the conduct of the petitioners, in imputing to them any description of fraud or stratagem.—After some farther conversation, the house divided; for Mr. Sheridan's motion 167; against it 12; majority 155. The order for a ballot was then fixed for Tuesday the 14th of April.
[IRISH MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES.]
The house resolved itself into a committee of supply, to which the various accounts respecting the Irish Miscellaneous Services had been previously referred. Sir John Newport moved, and it was resolved by the committee, that the several sums in the respective estimates, be granted for his majesty's further services to which they referred, for the year ending the 1st of January, 1808.
Mr. H. A. Herbert
observed upon the resolution voting a certain sum to the association for discountenancing vice and promoting the knowledge of religion and virtue, that however he might respect the individuals composing that body, he could not entirely approve of any self-created corporation, not relying upon their own voluntary contributions.
Sir J. Newport
said, that the grant now called for, was for the purpose of enabling the association to purchase a quantity of Bibles and Testaments, in order to retail them at a very low rate to the lower orders of the community.
Mr. Corry
wished it to be generally understood, that the sums now called for, for the miscellaneous services of Ireland were in principle guaranteed by the union compact; as to the association interested in the resolution now before the committee that association was incorporated before the union, and sanctioned uniformly by the parliament of Ireland, and most deservedly so, for the country had derived the most inestimable advantages from its unwearied zeal in the cause of religion and morality.
Mr. Wilberforce
thought the diffusion of Bibles and Testaments the best possible
938
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l
Mr. Perceval
had no objection, as this establishment had been founded previous to the union, to granting the sum of 8,000
l
Sir John Newport
observed, that the question was, not whether the catholic clergy should be educated in foreign countries, or at home; for, in the present state of Europe, they could not go for education to foreign countries. The question therefore was, whether they should be educated at all. Every gentleman would admit, that the catholics could not, by being educated abroad, be rendered better subjects, and that a domestic education for them was most desirable. Since the establishment of the institution by the disuse of foreign education, the demand for a supply of catholic clergymen had increased, in order to replace the infirm or the dead, and had increased to such a degree that the college did not afford sufficient. It had on that account been recommended by the government of Ireland to increase the grant, for the purpose of providing greater accommodations. The petition was solely for the education of the catholic clergy; but a lay seminary had been established near the college, which had the benefit of the professors of the college. The catholics
939
Mr. H. A. Herbert
said, that there was not an item in the whole accounts, to which he should give so hearty and cordial an assent, as that which was now before the committee; he insisted, that if we were in earnest with the people of Ireland, if Maynooth college was not a mockery, we should not hesitate to give the grants necessary for its maintenance.
Mr. Perceval
said, that many of the catholic gentry were educated in the protestant university of Ireland, before the erection of Maynooth college; but that since that impolitic measure, the number of catholic pupils in Dublin college had considerably diminished.
Sir J. Newport
thought, that the right hon. gent. must have been misinformed on that head, as before the year 1793 no Roman catholic students were admissible.
Mr. Perceval
further contended against the policy of any institution for the encouragement of Catholicism in Ireland, to the manifest injury of Protestantism.
Sir J. Newport
denied that there was a lay institution of the nature asserted by the hon. member; the college founded and supported by government, was for the education of the priesthood, and the priesthood only; instruction to the laity however, he admitted, might have been a secondary object.
Mr. Grattan
said, that the question lay within a narrow compass; whether the Roman catholic was to go abroad; form foreign connections; involve himself in foreign relations, and bring home foreign affections to his country; or whether he was to remain in his native land, and there acquire the instruction he was there to disseminate? If this could be as well effected in the college of Dublin, he should rejoice at it; for he would ever wish to see the catholic and protestant walking hand in hand together; he would wish to have them acting in such co-operation as to have in common the one grand impulse, and the one grand end; but the expence of instruction was complained of. What was the expence? 13,000
l
l
940
Mr. Bankes
thought the institution highly impolitic, and maintained that catholicism in Ireland should be discouraged rather than upheld.
Captain Herbert
warmly supported the institution, and illustrated its policy, by an allusion to a certain occurrence in the French revolution, at the expulsion of the priests, and the consequent degradation of the protestant clergy.
Lord Stanley
approved of the principle of the institution.—The resolutions were then agreed to, and on the house resuming, the report was ordered to be received on Monday.
[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.]Lord Howick
moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Slave Trade Abolition Bill.
General Gascoyne
suggested the propriety of deferring the hearing of counsel till Monday, on the ground that on the first reading of the bill, it was understood that the whole of this day was to be occupied with this most important question, and that at that hour of the evening it was not likely there would be such an attendance to hear the arguments of counsel with patience and decorum, as the magnitude of the measure required.
Lord Howick
was as much disposed as any man to consider this as a question of great importance: perhaps it was the most important that had ever been submitted to a legislative body; but when the louse was told that this was an inconvenient hour to hear counsel, and to hear counsel alone, for it was understood that no debate was to follow, he did not see how such an assertion could be supported. He certainly regretted that such a delay had occurred, which was to be attributed to the unexpected time that had been occupied by the public business that had been brought forward on that evening. It was not a very late hour, and he was of opinion, that there was a fuller attendance at that time than could be expected at the hour proposed by the hon. gent. opposite.—Gen. Gascoyne declaring that he did not mean to persevere in his recommendation of postponement, counsel were then called in, in the following order: Mr. Dallas, for the merchants and planters of Jamaica; Mr. Alexander, for the
941
Lord Howick
was persuaded, that the hon. gent. could not believe that the motion would be acceded to. Not any thing that the counsel had stated was new to the house, except one point, the relative situation of St. Domingo and Jamaica, and this was a mere matter of opinion. If after so many years of enquiry, the house still went on to investigate this subject, they would never come to a decision.
Mr. Fuller
deemed it extremely unfair to prevent evidence from being heard in support of the opinions of the learned counsel. As to what the noble lord said about opinion, what was the state of this country? Was it not governed by opinion? Was not the admiralty influenced by the opinion of a noble earl, a near connection of the noble lord's (earl St. Vincent), who had the other evening made a speech on this subject in the house of lords? He was desirous of hearing the evidence of those who were acquainted with the subject; and, when such an immense property was at stake, if there was any fairness, propriety, or decorum in the house, they would agree to the motion.
General Gascoyne
expressed himself surprised at the opposition of the noble lord. If any evidence could illustrate this momentous subject, it was the evidence of the two respectable persons whom the learned counsel wished to call to the bar. Did the noble lord mean to say, that all that had been urged by the learned counsel was matter of opinion, and that nothing new had been stated by him? The mere hearing of counsel, without allowing evidence to be called to support their statements, was a mockery.
Mr. Hibbert
recommended that evidence should be called in.
Sir C. Pole
urged the production of evidence, and declared that he could prove that the immediate abolition of the slave trade would be the most barbarous proceeding, even to the negro himself.
Mr. Wilberforce
had not heard in the
942
Mr. Wilberforce
remarked, that this was not the proper time for hearing such evidence. If the question of compensation should, at a subsequent period, be brought before the house, that would be the opportunity for receiving it.
Mr. Howarth
warmly urged the propriety of hearing evidence. He trusted justice would be done to the white, as well as the black, and moved that the counsel be called in, and directed to proceed with his evidence.
943
Lord Howick
opposed the motion. The learned counsel had stated two points which he wished to establish by evidence. The first was, that no more ground could be cleared in the island of Trinidad without fresh importation of slaves; the second' that great loss would be sustained by the settlers by the abolition of the trade. The first was a self-evident proposition, and, would lead merely to a question of policy: the second would be a question of future consideration. Those who demanded compensation, might hereafter submit their case to the house, who were never backward in listening to the claims of justice.
General Gascoyne
could not forbear expressing his satisfaction that the principle of indemnity seemed to be acknowledged by the noble lord.
Lord Howick
in explanation said, that he had only stated a general principle.
Sir P. Francis
was not willing to allow the possibility of a case in which the public ought to compensate an individual for any losses which might arise from the abolition of such iniquitous practices.
Mr. Roscoe
declared, that, after having performed the great duty of abolishing the Slave Trade, which had so disgraced the land, he thought the house bound to consider the situation of those who should suffer from the annihilation of a system so long sanctioned by the Legislature.
Mr. R. Thornton
thought that there would be few cases entitled to compensation. Those engaged in commercial concerns were necessarily exposed to risks, and sufficient warning had long been given to those engaged in this abominable traffic.
Mr. S. Stanhope
conceived that it would be convenient if the principle on which compensation would be allowed was stated Before the passing of the present bill.—The motion was then negatived without a division. After which, lord Howick moved that the bill be committed, and the debate motion on that was adjourned till Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 23.
[MINUTES.]Mr. Fuller
chairman of the Maidstone committee, appeared at the bar, and reported to the house that George Simson, and George Longman, esqrs. were duly elected to serve in this present parliament, and that the petition against them was not frivolous nor vexatious.—Sir E. Knatchbull gave notice, that he would
944
[POOR-LAWS BILL.] Mr. Whitbread
presented to the house, according to order, a bill for the promoting and encouragement of Industry amongst the Labouring classes of the community, and for the more effectual relief and regulation of the criminal and necessitous Poor. In answer to a question from Mr. E. Morris, relative to the 2d reading of the bill, Mr. W. stated, that he proposed to move the 2d reading of the bill the next day, and hoped the house would have no objection to its going through a committee
pro formâ
Mr. Morris
stated, that it had been his intention to oppose the whole bill; but if it were to be divided, he should not object to that part which provided for the education of the poor. As the other parts of the bill would go to an alteration of the whole system of poor-laws, of the law of settlement, and of the county rate, he could not give them his assent. He conceived that the 2d reading the next day would be the most convenient stage for him to state his objections to the measure, especially as
945
Mr. Whitbread
thought it would be better that his hon. friend should wave his opposition for the present, and reserve what he had to urge against the bill till some further stage of its progress. A partial discussion could not lead to any good purpose, and particularly on a proceeding that was merely
pro formâ
Mr. Morris
was proceeding to state his reasons for wishing to submit his objections to the measure the next day, when
The Speaker
thought it right to apprise the hon. member, that, though it was undoubtedly his right to press his objections in this instance, it was neither usual nor customary, according to the practice of the house, for any hon. gent. to resist the framers of any measure, which was to introduce a new system, in bringing it forward in whatever manner they might deem most convenient
Mr. Morris
thanked the Speaker for his intimation, and agreed to wave his right.—The bill was then ordered to be read a second time to-morrow
[SLAVE TRADE ABOLITION BILL.] Mr. Manning
observed, that in the event of the bill for the abolition of the slave trade passing into a law, he should feel it his duty to move for the appointment of a committee to consider of the propriety of granting compensation to certain classes of persons, whose interest would be affected by it. He wished to ask his majesty's ministers therefore, whether they were authorised to accede to such a proceeding? The compensation he had in view, was much more limited than might be supposed, and he thought this the proper stage for him to lay in his claim on behalf of a few classes of persons, whom he thought, justly entitled to the consideration of the legislature. The first class were, those who had purchased land under commissions granted by his majesty for the sale of them. The next class, were those who had purchased lands on the faith of
946
Lord Howick
replied, that he was certainly not authorised, in this stage of the business, to give any consent to such a proceeding: at the same time he admitted the candid manner in which the hon. gent. had stated his views of the limited amount of compensations. He took the opportunity of repeating what he had said on a former night, that it was contrary to the practice of parliament, to declare beforehand what might be the amount of compensation to be granted for possible losses by proposed political regulations. This was all he could say then on the subject, as he was not authorised to consent to the proposition of the hon. gent
The order for resuming the debate on the question for going into a committee on the Slave Trade Abolition bill, being read,
Lord Howick
said, he never came to the discussion of any subject with more embarrassment, than on the present occasion. The question had been so often agitated, that every hon. member could not but be acquainted with all its details. Yet the measure was of such importance in itself, and he felt so much more deeply interested in it, than in any other measure that had been brought forward since he had a share in the administration of public affairs, that he could not reconcile it to himself to bring the measure forward in that new parliament, without stating those facts, and that evidence upon which alone this question ought to rest. And in this he felt the difficulty of selection, lest he should tire the house by being too prolix, or omit any material part. There was at this moment no disposition to question the principle of this measure. It was universally admitted by the merchants, the planters and all descriptions of persons, that the slave trade, so far as regards Africa,
947
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l
l
949
950
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952
953
954
955
956
General Gascoyne
lamented, that on this subject he had to contend not only against argument but prejudice, and without that evidence, which, if admitted, would have shewn the dangerous tendency of the present measure. He declared himself, upon every view of the subject, and after mature
957
958
959
vivâ voce
960
961
Mr. Roscoe
was desirous of saying a few words on the present bill, both to satisfy his own feelings, and to fulfil the duty he owed to his constituents. Whatever might have been supposed, the inhabitants of the town of Liverpool were by no means unanimous in resisting the abolition of the slave trade. The noble lord had so ably discussed the general principles of the measure, that he had very little in addition to offer: one obvious effect he would notice, namely, that where the comforts of life were easily acquired, nature would fulfil her own designs, and the multiplication of the species would be secured. From excess of misery, disappointing these her benevolent intentions, the slave trade at first was resorted to; and when it became the interest of the planters to promote the happiness of this laborious class, the obstruction to the increase would be removed and the population would answer all the beneficial purposes conducive to the prosperity of these settlements. It would banish that horrid maxim so familiar on the islands, that it is better to buy than to breed slaves; and the principles of humanity would be so fortunately blended with the notions of commercial policy, that the felicity of that unfortunate class of beings would be finally consulted. So far was he from thinking that the islands would be sacrificed by this measure, that he was sanguine enough to believe it would be their salvation. He remembered that the Restriction bill was as much opposed as the present measure of total abolition; and yet the house had heard from counsel at the bar the other night, that those restrictions had been productive of essential benefits. He could not help strongly condemning that branch of this disgraceful traffic; which supplied the Africans on the coasts with the means of vice and debauchery, in furnishing them with brandy and fire-arms in exchange for their slaves. He had been doubtful it the gradual abolition of the trade would not be preferable to any sudden interruption to it; not, indeed, for the sake of those whose fortunes, whether as merchants or planters, were involved in it, but for the sake of the immediate objects of it. He was fearful, that when these were brought to the coasts, and no market was found, they might be massacred on the shores of their country. Feeling this apprehension, he enquired what would be the time necessary to ap-prize the native slave merchants and prevent this calamity, and he was told that a
962
Mr. Lushington
was greatly surprised to hear the opponents of this hill enter into cold calculations of loss and gain; for his part, he could never stop to balance imports and exports against justice and humanity. Statements had been made by the noble lord, which put it beyond doubt that oppression and cruelty had been practised towards the negroes in the West Indies. He did not want to have all the facts proved at the bar of the house, for if one half or a third of them were true, enough was established to induce the British legislature to interfere in behalf of those wretched creatures, who had been made the instruments of
963
Mr. Fawkes rose
and spoke to the following effects;—Mr. Speaker; the abolition of the slave trade has been, for the last 20 years, so repeatedly submitted to the consideration of this house, and to the discussion of the great and pre-eminent talents which have characterized and adorned the parliamentary history of this country, for that period; that, in addressing the house on this night, I feel my insufficiency to add any argument, either more new, or more cogent, than those which have on so many former occasions been introduced. But, sir, I rise to perform a solemn but voluntary pledge made to my constituents, that I would mark, with my express reprobation, a traffic, the most unjust and execrable; a trade, which has, during the whole course of my existence, excited the strongest abhorrence in my mind, and to resist the continuance of which is this night a proud and satisfactory feeling, enhanced by the grateful recollection, that I have been enabled to join with my hon. and respected colleague (Mr. Wilberforce) in the accomplishment of that object, which was the steady, unerring, and virtuous aim, of his private exertions and his public duties. The noble lord who, with his wonted eloquence, and unanswerable reasoning, moved this subject, has, I trust, fully convinced this house, that the measure which he supports and recommends, is founded on the true principles of a sound and liberal policy. It is unnecessary for me to follow that noble lord through the clear and precise statements which he made, or to advert to those calculations and inferences, which were so ably and fairly de-
964
965
966
967
"Quod non imber edax, non Aquilo impotens Possit diruere, aut innumerabilis Annorum series, et fuga temporum."
Lord Mahon rose,
and, in a maiden speech, addressed the house as follows:—In rising, sir, to address you on the present occasion, I do not intend to trespass long upon the indulgence of the house, for I have not the presumption to suppose that I can add any thing to what has been so ably and so eloquently stated by the noble lord who opened the debate. I am impelled, however, by a sense of duty, to deliver my opinions on the subject which is at present under consideration, and which is undoubtedly one of the most interesting and important that was ever debated within these walls. I am aware that though this subject has been often discussed, though it has received upon many former occa-
968
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970
971
972
Lord Milton,
though he felt extreme dif–fidence in offering himself to the house, could not suffer a subject of such interest and magnitude to pass, without offering his sentiments upon it. The arguments offered on the other side, so far from weak–ening, had tended to strengthen and confirm the opinion he had always entertained, that the slave trade was contrary not only to justice and humanity, but also to sound policy. That the slave population did not keep up its numbers in the course of na–ture, was to him a sufficient proof of bad treatment; and when the abolition of the trade should have created an interest to give them better treatment, he was certain the species would multiply. As long as the trade was continued, Britain would be giving a premium to rapine and murder, and preventing the progress of civilization on the coast of Africa. "Fiat justitia; ruat cœlum." Though the merchants of Liver–pool might suffer some loss, let this foul stain be washed from the character of the nation. He had often heard the sentiments of that lamented statesman, whom he was proud to call his friend, (Mr. Fox) on this subject, and he was happy in giving his aid to the completion of the valu–able bequest which that distinguished man had left to his friends and country in this great measure
Mr. Bathurst
said, that though he co–incided with the different members who had spoken as to the principle of the trade, he was not prepared to go so far as the policy of immediately abolishing it. He thought the present population not equal to the cultivation of the colonies, and that if the importation of negroes from Africa was immediately stopped, either the planters would suffer considerably in their proper–ties, or illegal means would be resorted to, to obtain a supply. He recommended a tax on the importation of fresh negroes, as a measure which would ultimately lead to a total abolition. Sufficient notification had not been given, in his opinion, to the parties interested; this being the only time
973
Sir John Doyle.—
Mr. Speaker; I am aware how hopeless the wish, even if I possessed the power of engaging the attention of the house, upon a subject al–ready so exhausted; and, therefore, if I cannot hope to be new, I shall at least endeavour to be short; but I feel also, that in addressing a British audience in the cause of justice and humanity, an apology would be little than an offence. The able statement of the noble lord (Howick), and the eloquent speech of the hon. mem–ber for Yorkshire, have, by anticipating much of what I had to offer, considerably increased my difficulties in addressing the house, for I feel that it would be as inju–dicious with regard to myself, as injurious to the cause I have at heart, were I, by repetition, to weaken what has been so strongly and so irresistibly established. I shall, therefore, confine myself to observing upon what has been urged by the counsel at your bar, and what has fallen in the course of this night's debate. The learned counsel (Mr. Dallas), in his ingenious speech, laid much stress upon the policy of continuing this trade. Now, sir, I positively deny that any policy can be sound, that is grafted upon injustice and oppression; but least of all can British policy rest upon such foul and hollow grounds. But, if I had any doubts on the score of policy, they would have been removed when I re–flect, that the two greatest men this or any other country ever produced, differing upon almost all other points, agreed, not upon the humanity and justice merely, but upon the sound policy of the measure, as con–nected with the general interest of the empire and its colonies; thus clubbing, if I may say so, their great talents in favour of the present measure. But, sir, an addi–tional proof of its policy is deducible from the undivided sentiments of his majesty's present ministers; not, indeed, from their power, for that would never induce me to give an opinion contrary to my feelings, or to what I conceive to be the true interest of my country, but because the great responsibility rests with them, of giving a due direction to the policy of the country; and,
974
their
ad infinitum
975
976
977
The Solicitor-General
said, he was sorry the right hon. gent. who spoke last but one, had displayed the principles that had fallen from him; for, in the present state of the sentiments of the house, it was not those who claimed humanity and justice, not for the negroes, but their oppressors, that the advocates of the abolition had to fear, but
978
979
Mr Hibbert rose,
and spoke in substance as follows:—I rise very reluctantly, sir, to trespass upon the house at this late hour, and immediately after a speech as impres–sively eloquent perhaps as any that was ever delivered within these walls; but extensively connected as I am, and have long been, with the commerce of the West Indies, and having now for the first time a seat in this house, during any debate upon this question, it may be expected that I should not let it pass with merely a silent vote; and I will hope too, that, al–though the subject has been so fully and so frequently canvassed within these walls, I may be pardoned, should I appear, thus Circumstanced, either to recur to what may have been amply discussed, or to question What may have been generally admitted in the course of former debates in this house. I am aware that, in declaring my connec–tion with the West-India trade, I subject myself directly to the charge of a bias of interest, which we have recently been told has clouded the understandings and blun–ted the feelings of that class of persons. Sir, there are others in this house who can better judge than I can, whether my under–standing and my feelings have, in fact, been so perverted, and whether, in extending re–lief to the calamities which in this life, and in this country, one sees, God knows, often enough occurring around us, I am or am not as prompt and zealous as my neigh–bours: and yet, sir, I must say, that after More than 25 years extensive connection with the island of Jamaica, during the grea–ter part of which Period this question has agitated the public mind, and the delibera–tions of the legislature, I have, as impar–tially as I knew how, given to it my utmost attention—derived, from every source I Could command, information concerning it—endeavoured to obtain results consistent and satisfactory to my mind—and am still but the more and more confirmed in Oppo–sition to the object of the bill now before us. I cannot, however, but think it hard, Sir, that West-India proprietors and merchants, persons not destitute of talents and education, and certainly having the mean being well informed on this subject, are yet
980
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982
servant
slave
983
"Rather to bear the ills they had, Than fly to others which they knew not of";
984
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*
986
*
987
988
par–tial
989
990
corruptio bonarum pessima
991
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993
Mr. Wilberforce
replied to the principal arguments which had been urged against the bill. He observed, that ever since he had engaged in this discussion, he had al–ways endeavoured to avoid any expres–sion which might he considered unjustly injurious towards those who opposed him. But it was not to be expected that the friends of the abolition were to overlook the general effect of human passions. Despotic power could not be possessed without much abuse in the exercise of it. All that he imputed to the West-India planters was, that they had yielded to the circumstances under which they existed. The children in the islands were accus–tomed to see an order of beings around them which they were taught to consider as inferior. Thus their prejudices were formed. It was not them, therefore, that he blamed, but those who, though not placed in a situation to be misled on the subject of this traffic, and who had the opportunity of seeing its horrors in their true colours, who possessed the power of putting an end to the evil, and yet had suffered it to exist. He referred to Mr. Parke's book, to shew the evils which the slave trade created in Africa. It had been contended that Mr. Malthus, in his Essay on Population, had favoured the slave trade; the fact, however, was not so Indeed, Mr. Malthus had called upon him that day, and expressed his surprise to have learned, that in some publications of the day he was regarded as a favourer of the slave trade; and stated that he had written an appendix to his work, to remove that impression. It was said, why not put an end to the lottery, and other evils in this country? He acknowledged that he
994
Sir John Doyle,
in explanation, stated, that the instances of oppression and cru–elty which he had cited, had taken place in Carolina, when under the government of this country
Mr. Manning
was convinced that the abolition of the African slave trade would not be attended with the injury apprehended to the West-India planters. The negro population of our colonies would, he was sure, be kept up without it. He had no estate in the British colonies. But in the Danish island of Santa Cruz he had an estate; and there his Danish majesty, by
995
Mr. Hiley Addington
could only be induced to assent to the measure upon one principle, namely that of the modification proposed to be introduced in the commit–tee by his right hon. relation (Mr. Ba–thurst), for postponing to a more distant pe–riod the final abolition, and for a gradual progress in the measure
Earl Percy
suggested, that a principle which he should wish to introduce into the bill, towards the final emancipation of the negroes, would be to declare every ne–gro child free, who shall be born in his majesty's dominions after the 1st of January, 1810.—The question was now loudly called for, and the house divided. Ayes 283, noes 16, majority 267. The house then resolved itself into a com–mittee
pro formâ
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 24.
[MINUTES.]
The following is a list of the committee appointed to take into consideration the petition complaining of an undue return for the county of Mayo: J. Woolmore, A. H. Holdsworth, W. E. Lockhart, hon.G. Elliott, hon. C. H. Butler, hon. T. C. Onslow, P. C. Bruce, C. Leigh, J. D. Porcher, G. Skene, T. D Drake, lord R. S. Fitzgerald, T. Tyrwhitt; nominees, hon. J. Butler, hon. T. Knox.—On the motion of lord Temple, the house resolved itself into a committee on the South Sea Trade bill. Counsel being declared to be in attendance on the part of the South Sea company, Mr. Cripps moved that they be called in. This produced a long discussion. On the one hand, it was contended by lord Temple Mr. Jacobs, Mr. Corry, Mr. Courtenay and Mr. C. Wynne, that no case had been made out to prove the necessity of the delay, which the hearing of counsel Must occasion. The petition from the South Sea company did not state, that they sustained any injury from the bill. Without a clear proof of injury could be shewn, they were not entitled to be heard by counsel. Their charter had been granted to them with this express limitation, that they should trade to the possessions of the king of Spain alone, as was demonstrated by the exceptions in that charter. One million and a half of
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 26.
[MINUTES.]
This day a ballot took place for a committee to try and determine the merits of the petition complaining of an undue election for Malmsbury, and the following members were chosen: R. Fer–guson, lord Mahon, James Dawkins, T. P. Symmonds, W. Wingfield, M. P. An–drews, S. Soddington, R. Morris, H. Swann, W. Jacob, viscount Newark, J. Buller, T. Stanley; nominees, viscount Marsham, H. Joddrell, esq.—Sir E.Knatchbull stated, that some circumstances had occurred which had induced him to abandon the notice he had given for that day, relative to the conduct of a certain witness before the Sand–wich road committee. The hon. baronet took occasion to disclaim any other mo–tive in the proceeding than that of a desire to maintain the diguity and character of that house. At the same time that he made this statement, he could not suppose that any member would be inclined to suspect him of being actuated by any other view.
[MR. PAULL'S PETITION RESPECTING THE WESTMINSTER ELECTION.] Lord Folkestone
called the particular attention of the house to a petition which he held in his hand from James Paull, esq. the petitioning candidate for Westminster. The noble lord stated, that the petitioner com–plained of a breach of the standing order of that house which regarded witnesses, and requested that it might be read. It declares, "That if it shall appear that any person hath been tampering with any witness, in respect of his evidence to be given to this house, or any committee thereof, or directly or indirectly hath endeavoured to deter or hinder any person from appearing, or giving evidence, the same is declared to be high crime and misdemeanour; and this house will proceed with the utmost severity against such of fender."—The noble lord then presented the following Petition, which was read by he clerk at the table:
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"To the honourable the commons of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in Parliament assembled: The humble petition of James Paull, esq. one of the candidates to represent the city of Westminster at the last elec–tion for members of Parliament to serve for the said city,
"Sheweth, That at the said election the right hon. R. B. Sheridan was returned a member to serve in parliament for the said city. That your petitioner presented a pe–tion to this hon. house, against the return of the said R. B. Sheridan, charging him, among other things, with having procured the same by means of undue and illega influence, by threats and menaces, and by divers acts of bribery and corruption. That the said petition was appointed to be taken into consideration on the 24th of this instant month of February. That this honourable house thought fit, at the instance of the said R. B. Sheridan, to postpone the consideration of the said petition until the 14th of April now next ensuing. That your petitioner has lately discovered that the said R. B. Sheridan, in defiance of the standing orders of this house, and to the ma–nifest subversion of every principle of justice, has, by divers nefarious ways and means, tampered with and endeavoured to corrupt, and has attempted to persuade and to de–ter and hinder, certain persons whom your petitioner intended and still intends to ex–amine, and who are and will be material witnesses upon the trial of the said peti–tion, from appearing on the day when the said petition shall be heard, and from gi–ving their unbiassed, or any, testimony on behalf of your petitioner, and against the said R. B. Sheridan.—That one Wm. Drake was and still is a material witness sum–moned on behalf of your petitioner, and that the said W. Drake having, on or about the 10th of this instant February, informed the said R. B. Sheridan that he had been so summoned, and having enquired of him the course he was to pursue, the said R. B. Sheridan told him to leave that bu–siness to him, that he would procure him a situation abroad, and he would also pro–vide for the father of the said W. Drake, and added, that the said W. Drake might have any money he pleased, and wished the said W. Drake to keep out of the way, and endeavoured to persuade the said W. Drake not to give, and to intimidate, and deter, and hinder him from giving, complete and unbiassed testimony before the select com-
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Mr. Sheridan rose
to ask the noble lord, whether it was his intention to follow up this petition by any grave proceeding, because, if so, he would reserve what he had to state upon this subject, until such proceeding should be proposed?
Lord Folkestone
replied, that he meant the next day to ground a motion upon this petition, of which he took that opportunity to give notice.—The petition was then ordered to lie on the table
Mr. Wilberforce
reminded the noble lord, that a question of considerable im–portance stood for the next day
The Speaker
observed, that as the motion of the noble lord referred to a breach of privilege, it naturally took precedency of every other question
Lord Howick
concurred with the opinion the house had just heard from the chair, that it had always been usual to proceed to the consideration of any charge connected with a breach of privilege with all convenient expedition. Indeed, the prompt investigation of such an important point was so desirable, that he should wish it to be gone into that night. If the noble lord were inclined to proceed, he could not sup–pose that there existed on any side of the house the slightest indisposition to hear him
Lord Folkestone,
after all that he had heard of the doctrine of notices, was not prepared to expect that the house would be willing to entertain a question of this
1001
Mr. Sheridan
felt it his duty to abstain at present from any remark upon this ex–traordinary petition. Indeed, if he were now to enter into its allegations, he very much apprehended that he might be led to speak of it in warmer terms of scorn and contempt than would be quite becoming, after the order which the house had just made. His hope and desire was, that the consideration of this subject would be pro–ceeded upon as soon as possible, and he sincerely wished that the noble lord might collect and present petitions, containing all the charges circulated against him, either during the progress, or since the termination of the Westminster election. He would be glad to have the whole of that transaction brought before the house, and fully investigated, It was not one act alone, but every pert of the proceeding that it was his wish to have discussed. He had no reason to be afraid of any thing that could be proved. It was the loose al–legation which originated in falsehood, which was propagated by craft, and shrunk from enquiry, that could alone affect his interest. With regard to the charges against him, contained in the petition before the house, he did not know whether it would be decent to say that every word of them was a gross falsehood. But this he knew, that he was fully prepared to shew at the bar, if permitted to prove, that all the witnesses examined at the bar were forsworn, but that, he said, would be mat–ter for future observation
Lord Howick
rather wished the house should not separate without some farther proceeding upon the subject of the petition. As to the doctrine of notices, he did not conceive it by any means so sacred as the noble lord professed to think. It certain–ly was not a settled practice, or a standing order, although it had of late been general–ly observed. This practice, therefore, need not be adhered to on the present oc–casion. His desire was to avoid any un–necessary delay, and that the noble lord should at once move to refer the petition to the committee of privileges; and after
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The Speaker
observed, that as the house had already ordered the petition to lie on the table, it was now too late to make any other order
Lord Folkestone
was not aware that it had ever been the practice to give any no–tice of the intention to present a petition. If such had been the custom, the noble secretary would not have had to express any regret on this occasion. The only no–tice which he understood custom to re–quire, he had not neglected in this instance, namely, that of apprising the individual concerned of his intention to present such a petition. For he himself left a note the preceding day at the house of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) acquainting him of his intention of presenting the peti–tion this day. With respect to the nature of his future proceeding, he felt some difficulty in determining, in consequence of the declaration which the house had just heard from the noble secretary of state, as he had calculated upon the necessity and propriety of counsel to examine the witnes–ses. This new difficulty rendered him of course still less capable of proceeding with the promptitude which the noble secretary professed to desire, At this desire he could not help feeling some astonishment, consi–dering how much the doctrine of notices had been often insisted upon, recollecting, indeed, that the neglect of previous notice had been sometimes deemed a fatal objection to the adoption of a motion. But to return to
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Lord Howick,
influenced by what had fallen from the chair, did not mean to press any farther proceeding that night. But, in order to obviate the possibility of any misconception or misconstruction arising out of what the noble lord had said relative to the idea of rendering this business nuga–tory, or stifling enquiry,he thought it neces–sary to repeat the substance of what he had before stated. In urging the noble lord to move at once for referring the pe–tition on the table to a committee of privi–leges, he by no means proposed that the noble lord should at once be called on to produce his witnesses, and go into the en–quiry; on the contrary, he had distinctly stated, that a future day should be ap–pointed for the committee to sit. There–fore, no expression whatever had escaped him which could warrant any man in sup–posing that he wished the noble lord to be taken by surprise, or hurried into the en–quiry without ample preparation. Now, in order that full time should be allowed the noble lord to prepare and bring for–ward his witnesses, he proposed that the further consideration of this subject should be postponed till Monday
Lord Folkestone
expressed his willingness to adopt the suggestion of the noble secre–tary of state, by postponing till Monday his intended motion upon the subject of Mr. Paull's petition
Mr. Adam
wished to know the precise nature of the noble lord's motion, in order that gentlemen should have an opportunity previously to consider it: for with all the desire that he felt to have a charge of such aggravated character probed to the bottom, still he might feel himself under the necessity of negativing the noble lord's motion, should it prove to be incorrect in its nature
Lord Folkestone
felt himself unable to give a precise answer to the learned gent.'s question, particularly in consequence of what had fallen from the noble secretary of state. He therefore could not at present say distinctly what would be the form of his motion; but he had no objection to state generally, that the object of it would be to have witnesses called to the bar for examina-
1004
[NEW PLAN OF FINANCE.] Lord Castlereagh,
before he proposed to name ano–ther day for the consideration of the Fi–nancial Resolutions he had laid before the house, wished to take this opportunity of submitting three other resolutions which he proposed to bring under its consideration. He did not wish to enter into any detail that could provoke discussion or call for reply. His object was, simply to state the object of the new resolutions he meant to propose. He felt himself called upon to bring forward these resolutions, and par–ticularly in consequence of certain expres–sions which fell from an hon. gent. (Mr. H. Thornton), whose opinions were much looked up to on all subjects, but particu–larly on subjects of this nature. That hon. gent. had complained that his(lord C.'s) reso–lutions instituted comparisons between the noble lord's system and the old mode (Mr. Pitt's) of raising the expenses within the year, and not with either of the plans he proposed to substitute, and that this was not fair at a time when it was universally agreed that further taxation ought to be abstained from. Two of the resolutions he had now to propose, were to shew that the noble lord's plan would bear as little comparison with the modifications of it which he had proposed, as with the old system. The third resolution was to shew, that by the noble lord's mode of managing the sinking fund, more injury would be done to the stockholders, than by the former system, or either of the plans pro–posed by him. He wished to make a few verbal amendments in the resolutions now before the house, in order to put the house fully in possession of his views. Upon the fullest consideration, he saw no reason to alter the opinion he had at first formed of the noble lord's plan, and his objections to it were rather confirmed and increased, than diminished.—The further consideration of all the resolutions was then de–ferred till Monday fortnight. The whole of the Resolutions moved by the noble lord were as follow:
No. 1.—"That it is proposed by the New Plan of Finance, brought forward by the chancellor of the exchequer, that the annual excesses of the present sinking fund, above the interest of the debt charged upon it in any given year, should be de–clared to be at the disposal of parliament, and applicable to the public service. And it appears that the aggregate produce of
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No. 2.—"That the proposed system of Finance proceeds gradually to mortgage, for 14 years, the whole of the war taxes for the interest of loans in war.—That these taxes are not generally of a nature which can, with propriety, be so pledged as se–veral of them (such as the tax on tonnage and exports, and the duties on tea and on spirits) must probably either be modified, or reduced, on a peace; whilst it is proposed by the said Plan, that the property tax, amounting to 11,500,000
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Suppose a Peace Establishment at £.15,000,000: If the War Taxes were mortgaged, there would remain,
Land and Malt
£.2,750,000
Surplus of Consolidated Fund
3,500,000
Lottery
450,000
£6,700,000-6,700,000
Annual Deficiency to be provided for by New Loans or Taxes
8,300,000
Supposing the Peace Establishment to amount to
20,000,000
The Deficiency, to be provided for, in like manner, would be
13,300,000
No. 3.—"That the New Plan will re–quire loans to a greater amount, to be raised in each year, than would be required if the usual system of borrowing were per–severed in.
By the present System, in order to cover a War Expenditure of
—.32,000,000
There would be wanted in each year, in aid of the twenty?one Millions War Taxes, a Loan of
11,000,000
Amounting, in twenty years, to
220,000,000
NEW PLAN:
Amount of War Loans, for twenty years (B)
£292,000,000
Ditto of Supplementary Loans, for ditto (B)
204,200,000
Total
£496,200,000
Total Excess by the New Plan - £.276,200,000
The average capital to be annually raised by the New Plan is,
Annual Amount of Loans, by the New Plan, on a 20-years' average:
War Loan
£14,600,000
Supplementary Ditto
10,200,000
Total by New Plan
24,800,800
Average Annual Excess by New Plan
13,800,000
No. 4.—" That the comparative Increase of the Public Debt, which would be pro–duced by the two Systems, and the effect they will have on the proportionate amount of the sinking fund, by their operation in 20 years, is as follows:
EFFECT OF THE PRESENT SYSTEM,
As existing under 26, 32, 42 Geo. III. cap. 31, 55, 71.
The Amount of Money Capital of the Public Debt is (by Table N.) in the year
1807
£363,793,722
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The Amount of ditto will be, in the year 1826, supposing 11 millions raised in each year
270,443,305
Decrease of Debt in 20 years, raising 11 millions in each year
93,350,417
EFFECT OF THE NEW PLAN:
Amount of the Money Capital of the Public Debt, under the New Plan, is, in 1807,
£.364,993,722
The amount of ditto will be, in 1826,
455,537,932
Increase by New Plan in 20 years
£. 90,544,210
Decrease of Debt by Present System, as above
93,350,417
Increase of ditto by the New Plan
90,544,210
Total increase of debt by New System
£.183,894,667
EFFECT OF THE PRESENT PLAN ON THE SINKING FUND:
Amount of Sinking Fund, under the Present System, on the Public Debt, 1807, (N)
£.8,515,042
Amount of ditto will be, in 1826 (N)
27,115,881
Increase of Sinking Fund in 20 years-
18,610,839
EFFECT OF THE NEW PLAN ON THE SINKING FUND:
Amount of Sinking Fund, under the New System, is stated to be, in 1807
8,935,042
Amount of ditto under the New System, will be, in 1826
26,901,360
Increase in 20 years
£17,966,318
Difference in favour of present System
644,421
So that the New Plan gives only 26,901,360
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No. 5.—"That an Increase of Charges for the interest and sinking fund of loans, for the 20 years, must take place under the New Plan, compared with the like charge,
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EFFECTS OF THE PRESENT SYSTEM.
Annual Loan £ 11,000,000.;—Charge for Interest add Sinking Fund (L)
£. 733,333
Amount of Loans for twenty Years, £. 220,000,000.—Charge for ditto (L.)
14,666,680
EFFECT OF THE NEW PLAN
Charge of the Supplementary Loans, amounting in 20 years to £ 204,200,000. Expiring Annuities deducted (C)
£. 14,266,38
War Taxes, mortgaged at the end of 20 years, which are to be liberated successively in the next 14 years after 1826
21,000,000
Charge, as above, under the present System (L)
14,666,660
Charge under the New Plan, for Supplementary Loans only (G.)
14,299,388
Difference, exclusive of Charge of Distribution, as stated in Resolution 8. A.
370,272
War Taxes, mortgaged as above far War Loans, according to the New Plan
£. 21,000,000
Ditto, according to the present System
Nil.
No. 6.—"That the Ways and Means, proposed by the New Plan, to prevent the necessity of imposing new taxes to any considerable amount, viz. the expiring annuities, together with the excesses of the sinking fund above the interest of the unredeemed debt, are equally applicable,
pro tanto,
Produce of the Excess of the Sinking Fund between 1816 and 1826, above the interest of the Unredeemed Debt (F)
£11,122,809
Applicable by the falling-in of Annuities
683,062
New Permanent Taxes proposed by the New Plan to be raised between 1810 and 1817, to the amount of (K)
2,051,000
Total
£13,856,871
Charge of Supplementary Loans, Annuities not deducted (C)
£14,296,388
*Ways and means as above
13,856,871
Remains to be provided for, exclu–sive of the charge of equalizing the Ways and Means, with the charge, so far as they do not arise propor–tionally within the respective years,
£439,517
*
1009
Charge for the total amount of Loans, at the rate of 11,000,000
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As a Fund to supply this Charge, the Ways and Means, as above, for raising the Interest and Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Loans, may be applied,
pro tanto
13,856,871
Remains to be provided for, in order to cover the charge, ex–clusive of the charge of distribution, as above
£. 809,789
It therefore appears, that the means re–quired to be applied under the New System, to defray the charge for Interest and Sink–ing Fund on the Supplementary Loans alone, would, with the addition of taxes to the amount of 370,272
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No. 7.—"That the comparative Effects which would be produced on the Public Income by the two Systems on return of peace, and on the formation of a peace establishment, are as follows:
UNDER THE PRESENT PLAN:
There would be no charge whatever upon any part of the war taxes. The whole 21 millions would remain free. The property tax, or whatever portion of the other war taxes were not required towards making an adequate provision for the peace esta–blishment, might be immediately remitted, leaving that resource unpledged, and available on the recurrence of war.
UNDER THE NEW SYSTEM:
When peace takes place, a considerable part, if not the whole of the war taxes, will have been mortgaged. In the latter case, there will only remain a clear reve–nue of 6,700,000
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No 8.—"That the sum of 11 millions a year, required in aid of the 21 millions War Taxes, to complete the War Expendi–ture of 32 millions, may be raised (should the principle of applying the excesses of the Sinking Fund to the public service be decided on) according to the following mode, without mortgaging the war taxes; without swelling the loans to be raised within the year to the inordinate amount of 32 millions sterling; without rendering new taxes of any materially greater amount necessary than it is proposed to lay on by the New System, and without making so considerable an addition to the debt as will be made, should the New System be carried into execution.
The sum required as above, to provide for a loan of 11 millions per ann., for 20 years, is
£14,666,660
The resources available, amount (exclusive of the charges of distribution) to
13,856,871
Deficiency
£809,789
The deficiency of 809,789
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No. 8.—(A.)"That the comparative ef–fects of the Plan in Res. 8. as contrasted with the New System, may be stated as follows:
FIRST CASE.—Supposing peace to take place at the end of the ninth year, that is, in 1815:
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Capital borrowed in 9 years by New System.
War Loans
£. 130,000,000
Supplementary Loans
£. 30,200,000
Total borrowed by New Plan
£. 160,2000,00
Capital borrowed in 9 years by Resolution 8.
Ordinary Loans, at 11 millions annually
£99,000,000
To equalize Ways and Means with the charge, within the respective years, including the advances from the Consolidated Fund
29,791,234
Total borrowed by Resolution 8
128,791,234
More capital borrowed by New Plan
£. 31,408,766
Debt remaining unredeemed at the end of 1815; also, Comparative Amount of Sinking Fund, supposing peace then to take place, the excesses of the war sinking fund in New Plan being previously deducted, in order to liberate the larger proportion of war taxes:
Debt:
Sinking Fund:
By New Plan
384,480,570—
18,278,435 - 1/21
By Res. 8.
378,249,442—
15,645,001 – 1/24
More Debt by New plan.
£6,231,128
By New Plan, War Taxes pledged, and rendered permanent after the excesses of War Sinking Fund have been deducted
£9,517,749
By Resolution 8. War Taxes pledged
Nil.
By New Plan, Loan raised in 1815
24,000,000
By Res. 8. Ditto, including a sum equal to the advances from Consolidated Fund
17,019,360
In the above case no new taxes, beyond those to be imposed by the New Plan, will be required; as the excesses of the present sinking fund arising in 1816, will fully supply the permanent provision for the postponed charge of the loans raised in the preceding 9 years.
SECOND CASE.—Supposing war to con–tinue to the end of 20 years:
Capital to be raised by New Plan.
War Loans
292,000,000
Supplementary Loans
204,200,000
Total borrowed by New Plan
£. 496,200,000
Ditto, by Resolution 8, 11 millions in each year
220,000,000
To equalize Ways and Means up to 1815
29,791,234
To equalize ditto up to 1826, supposing 500,000
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Total Capital borrowed by Res. 8
£. 266,598,834
More Capital borrowed by New Plan
229,601,166
Debt remaining unredeemed at the end of 1826; also, Comparative Amount of Sink–
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By New Plan, in 1826
428,636,572—17,525,698—1/24
By Res.8. in do.
341,960,615—15,740,171-1/21
More debt unredeemed by New Plan.
—. 86,675,957
By New Plan, War Taxes pledged, and rendered permanent after the excesses of the War Sinking Fund have been deducted
£. 10,279,270
By Res 8. War Taxes pledged
Nil.
By New Plan, loan to be raised in 1826
32,000,000
By Resolution 8
11,000,000
There is, however, to be set off against the 10,279,270
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No. 9.—"That nearly the same results (viz. the having abstained from mortgaging the war taxes, and the having kept the loan of the year within moderate limits,) may be produced, by determining, that when the loan of the year in war does not exceed the amount of the sinking fund in the said year, instead of making provi–sion for the interest of the said loan by new taxes, the same shall be provided for by and out of the Interest receivable on the Amount of Stock in that year, redeem–ed by the commissioners of the national debt: in which case, the amount of debt unredeemed will continue stationary du–ring war.
The Sinking Fund is at present (N)
£. 8,331,709
It will be, at the close of 1810
10,956,941
In about 4 years therefore, from the pre–sent time, no new taxes will be required, (the data remaining the same) however long the war may continue; and the war taxes will remain free at the close of the war, when the sinking fund will resume its progressive operation; the purchase of stock by the commissioners being conti–nued, in the mean time, to the full amount of the sinking fund.
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That the charge for 4 years Loan, as above, for 11 millions in each year, taking credit for 385,515
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Taxes required in each year, for the next 4 years
626,952
The taxes so to be imposed exceed only by 496,810
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According to this plan, the Debt would continue stationary throughout the war, at
358,955,705
Amount of Debt at close of 1826, by New Plan (N)
428,636,572
Ditto in 1826, by this plan
358,955,705
Difference of Debt in favour of this plan
£69,680,867
And no War Taxes mortgaged.
Any excess of annual expenditure above the 32 millions, is supposed in this, as in the New Plan, to be separately provided fox in the usual manner."
No. 9(A.) "The Comparative Effect of the above Plan (Res. 9.) as contrasted With the New System, may be stated as follows:
1st Case.—Supposing peace to take place at the end of 7th year, 1813:
Capital borrowed in 7 years.
By New Plan, War Loans
98,000,000
By ditto Supplementary Loans
15,800,000
Total borrowed by New Plan
113,800,000
By Res. 9, 11 millions in each year
77,000,000
More borrowed by New Plan
£. 36,800,000
Debt remaining unredeemed at the end of 1813; also Comparative Amount of Sinking Fund, supposing peace then made, the excesses of the War Sinking Fund in New Plan being previously deducted in order thereby to liberate the larger pro–portion of war taxes.
Debt:
Sinking Fund.
By New Plan
£. 377,653,730
15,915,952 – 1/23
By Res. 9.
358,955,705
10,956,941 – 1/32
More Debt by New Plan.
18,698,625
By New Plan, War Taxes pledged and rendered permanent after the excesses of the War Sinking Fund are deducted
£. 7,773,921
By Res. 9. War Taxes pledged
Nil.
By New Plan, New Taxes imposed
1,172,000
By Res. 9, ditto
2,547,810
By New Plan, Loan to be raised in 1814
20,800,000
By Res. 9. ditto in ditto
11,000,000
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2d CASE.—Supposing peace to take place at the end of 14 years, 1820:
Capital borrowed in 14 years,
By New Plan, War Loans
210,000,000
By ditto, Supplementary Loans
94,200,000
Total borrowed by New Plan
304,200,000
By Res. 9. 11 millions in each year
154,000,000
More borrowed by New Plan
£. 150,200,000
Debt unredeemed at end of 1820; also Comparative Amount of Sinking Fund, supposing peace then made, stated as in preceding case:
Debt:
Sinking Fund:
By New Plan
£. 401,231,629
17,744,021 – 1/22
By Res. 9.
358,955,705
10,956,941 – I/33
More debt by New Plan.
42,275,924
By New Plan, War Taxes rendered permanent
£. 9,180,896
By Res. 9. War Taxes pledged
Nil.
By New Plan, New Taxes imposed
2,051,000
By Res. 9. ditto
2,547,810
By New Plan, Loan in 1820
32,000,000
By Res. 9. ditto in ditto
11,000,000
3d CASE.—Supposing peace to take place at the end of 20 years, 1826:
Capital borrowed in 20 years,
By New Plan, War Loans
292,000,000
By ditto Supplementary Loans
204,200,000
Total borrowed by New Plan
496,200,000
By Res. 9, 11 millions in each year
220,000,000
More borrowed by New Plan
£. 276,200,000
Debt unredeemed at end of 1826; also, Comparative Amount of Sinking Fund, supposing peace then made, stated as in the preceding cases:
Debt:
Sinking Fund:
By New Plan
£. 248,636,572
17,524,698
By Res. 9.
358,955,705
10,956,941
More debt by New Plan
69,682,867
By New Plan, War Taxes rendered permanent
10,280,000
By Res. 9. War Taxes pledged
Nil.
By New Plan, New Taxes imposed
2,051,000
By Res. 9. ditto
2,547,810
By New Plan, Loan in 1826
32,000,000
By Res. 9. ditto in ditto
11,000,000
That the improvidence of the mode of raising money, proposed by the New Plan, will best appear, if, instead of having the whole of the war taxes free upon a peace, as is the case by Res. 9. a portion of them equal to the amount pledged, and ren–dered permanent in 1826 by the New Plan, viz. 10,279,270
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Debt.
Sinking Fund.
By New Plan
£. 428,636,572
£. 17,525,698
By Res. 9.
358,955,705
21,236,211 1/16
By New Plan, more Debt.
£. 69,680,867 less Sinking Fund
£. 3,710,513
The same observation applies to both the preceding cases.
If the measure of imposing the 2,547,810
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No. 9.—(B.) "That much prejudice and embarrassment is likely to result both to the interest of the stockholder, and to the money transactions of the country, from the large and rapidly increasing loans which must be raised, according to the New Plan, in each year of war, the annual amount of which, in the latter years of the operation (if to their estimated amount, viz. 32 millions, be added the sums which will be required for the service of Ireland, for subsidies, and other unforeseen expences, and for the progressive advance of charge upon any given establishment) will probably not fall short before the close of the period, of from 40 to 50 millions money capital; which, supposing the 3 percents. at 60, would require the creation of a capital of from 66 to 82 millions annually.—That the making of loans to such an inordinate amount (increasing in each year in a greater proportion than the sinking fund) must, by the great influx of new stock to be thus created, and sold in
1016
1017
No. 10.—"That the expence of raising any given amount of loan on the present system; viz. by a single loan, with a sinking fund of one per-cent. as compa–red with the principle of the New Plan, of raising the same amount by double and concurrent loans; the one raised upon a fund of ten per-cent. for interest and sink–ing fund; the other raised upon a fund of six per-cent. for interest and sinking fund; calculating the payments on ac–count thereof from the commencement to the final liquidation of the said loan, is as follows; the sinking fund in both cases being taken on the money, instead of the nominal capital:
Suppose 12,000,000
l
Ten per cent. Interest and Sinking Fund on 12,000,000
l
1,200,000
A like charge for 13 years more, at which time the Principal is redeemed
15,600,000
Total Payments
£. 16,800,000
To cover the interest and sinking fund of 1,200,000
l
l
l
The latter sum, being raised on a one–-per-cent. sinking fund, may be considered as an annuity of 43 years.
Payments on account thereof
43,344,000
1018
Payments as above
16,800,000
Total Payments
£. 60,144,000
PRESENT SYSTEM:
The Interest and Sinking Fund on a loan of 12,000,000
l
l
This charge being raised on a one-per–cent. sinking fund, may be considered as an annuity of 43 years.
Payments to be made on account thereof till its redemption
£30,960,000
Payments on New System, upon a loan of 12,000,000
60,144,000
Ditto on present System
30,960,000
Excess of the charge of Redemption by New System"
£. 29,184,000"
[CARNATIC PAPERS.]
Sir Thomas Turton rose
and spoke as follows:—Pursuant to a notice I gave en a former day, I riser sir, to call the attention of the house to the subject of the Carnatic. The papers which I think necessary for the elucidation of that subject, and which will be specified in the motion I shall have the honour of making, and to which, I trust, there will be no objection, since they have al–ready been laid upon the table of this house, and remained there for a considera–ble time—the papers alluded to were cal–led for by an hon. gent. not now a member of this house, and they were moved for originally on reasons which I hope will ap–ply now. After a short statement of the case, I am inclined to believe there will be no objection to my motion, because the documents it calls for are necessary for the purpose of justice, as well towards the par–ty accused, as to the accuser. When the motion was formerly made on this subject, the facts were then recent in the recollec–tion of the house, from the history of the transactions which was then given. Sir, it is in the recollection of almost every man, that intelligence arrived in this country, of the death of Omdut ul Omrah, commonly called the nabob of the Carnatic, and of the circumstances of his lineal successor, as he would have been by the Mahomedan law, being dethroned, and another placed in his room. Many persons acquainted with Indian politics, perfectly well know the circumstances attending that deposition—but none could reconcile the act on any principle of justice; for every one knew, from the youth of the prince, as well as from his mode of conduct, that the act could not have arisen out of any pro–ceedings of his own. He had not had an
1019
1020
1021
1022
Mr. Sheridan
thanked the hon. baronet for his liberality and candour, and acknow–ledged the pledge which he had given to proceed with the enquiry. He had stated the reasons which induced him to give it up, when the hon. baronet was not a member of the house. He would again state them at the proper time, and then the hon. baro–net would be satisfied that he did him no more than justice, in giving him credit for the purity of his motives. The question, as he thought, was confined to the con–duct of the Madras government, but from volumes of papers afterwards moved for, it appeared that the Bengal government, the directors, and the board of controul were also implicated. This was however not the ground of his abandoning the case. He thought the hon. baronet ought to con–fine himself to the reprinting of the papers before produced. If he moved for new ones, and was retorted upon in the manner he had been, he would subject himself to be called over the coals, and the business might be delayed longer than he could at present have any idea of. When he brought forward the charge, however, he would experience every support that he could give him
Sir John Anstruther
hoped that the hon. baronet would declare what was his object,
1023
Mr. Grant
said, though he did not flatter himself that much benefit would result from this discussion, yet, as a friend to discus–sion in general, and considering the house of commons as the only security which the inhabitants of British India had for protec–tion and redress, and the only place in which an investigation into the affairs of India could be instituted, it was necessary that he should take notice of some assertions which had been made in the course of this debate. It was asserted, that they had recommended, if not ordered, On revolution which took place in India, by the assumption of the territories of the Carnatic, to which it must first be answered that they disclaimed all interference in the nature of compulsion, and he read an extract from their minutes, by which such an interference was expressly disclaimed, and then asked how such a proceeding should be tortured into an approbation, much less an authority, for the revolution which took place? He could state, that the court
1024
Sir John Anstruther
denied that he wished to oppose enquiry. He only said that it ought not to be allowed to drag on for years. The court of directors had instruct–ed their officers to pay the same deference to the orders of the secret committee as to those of the directors themselves, and as the secret committee had approved of the conduct of lord Wellesley, he was fully
1025
Mr. Grant
denied that the court of directors submitted themselves entirely to the guidance of the secret committee
Sir Arthur Wellesley
said, he was disposed to pursue the same line he had adopted last session, and was, therefore, willing to accede to every motion for papers that could enable the house to decide upon the whole case. Neither would any friend of his noble relation give any opposition to the production of such information. But it was his opinion, that all the paper should be reprinted, and with that view he should feel it his duty to move, as well for those omitted by the hon. baronet, as for any others that might be necessary of the elucidation of the transaction. He wished the house to consider the situation of his noble relation with this charge hanging six years over him. It appeared by the papers, that the court of directors had sent out instructions to take possession of the Carnatic, at the commencement of the war with Tippoo Sultan, and not to restore it to the nabob. It was rather extraordinary, therefore, that a charge should be brought for a transaction commanded and approved by the court of directors, and sanctioned by his majesty and by act of parliament
Mr. R. Thornton
complained of the accusations thrown out against the directors without documents on the table to warrant them. He regretted the delay which had taken place, but maintained that no blame rested with the directors. The reasons given by the right hon. gent. over the way (Mr. Sheridan), for his abandoning the case, did not appear to him satisfactory. When he had brought forward the question, he thought he was going hand in hand with him, but he soon found that he himself was to be accused. There were some points with respect to the government in India that required the interference of that house, which was the dernier resort in such cases. But the court of directors were not the proper persons to become accusers. If they put themselves forward in this way, they might do a great deal of mischief to our interests in India. From the nature of their situation, it was not expedient in any view that they should come prominent–ly forwards, unless assured of effectual support. The hon. baronet (sir J. Anstruther) had himself before gone a considerable
1026
Mr. Tierney
would not object to the re–printing of the papers which had been be–fore produced, and agreed that that house was the dernier resort in such cases. But he lamented that the subject had been now brought forward, as he could see no good that could result from it. It had before been properly brought forward, and he lamented that it had not then been proceeded in. He begged of the house to con–sider the consequences. The subject was one of the deepest importance, particular–ly with a view to the transfer of property, which had taken place since the transac–tion which had been adverted to. But, at the same time, he admitted that even the inconvenience that might result from the disturbance of property, ought not to deter the house, if it was called upon, from investigating the case, and applying its censures where censure was due. He was sorry that the hon. baronet had not men–tioned more distinctly whom he intended to accuse. He admitted that the board of controul was responsible for the secret committee, but he denied that this committee was such a nullity as some might suppose from the description of it which had that, night been given, and he cautioned gentlemen against speaking of it in these terms, as they might, by these means, propagate an opinion that it was useless. He gave no opinion respecting the merits of the transactions. He agreed to the motion of re–printing the former papers; but it was doubt–ful whether the others could be granted, till the hon. baronet should state what they were, and till he had an opportunity of examining whether they could be produced without detriment to the public service
Lord Folkestone
contended, that with respect to the assumption of the govern–ment of the Carnatic, blame lay some–where, and that it was a matter of serious investigation to ascertain where all the censure of that most extraordinary revolu–tion should devolve. The hon. baronet
1027
Mr. Hiley Addington
begged gentlemen to recollect, that there had been more pa–pers relative to India called for, and pro–duced in the last session of the late parlia–ment, than for six sessions before; he was entirely of opinion, that in calling for pa–pers upon any subject, the object should be distinctly stated; he acquitted the hon. baronet of being actuated by any sinister motives of party or vanity in bringing forward his present motion, and praised the manly and ingenuous conduct of the gallant general (Wellesley) in every ques–tion relating to Indian enquiry
Mr. S. Stanhope
thought it a most extra–ordinary mode of opposing the hon. baro–net's motion, by refusing to assent to the production of the papers called for, until the object had been distinctly stated, which object the papers in question were alone to ascertain. He complained of a radical defect in the present state of the go–vernment in India, and knew not whether more governments had been subverted by it in the East or by Bonaparte in the West
Sir T. Turton,
in reply, said that when it appeared from the arguments upon both sides, that it was a question whether the court of directors approved or disapproved of the conduct of their servants in In–dia, he did not think a stronger argument than this very doubt could possibly be advanced in favour of the motion he had submitted to the house: his object was substantial justice, and in the pursuit of that, however deficient in other respects, he should not be found defective in zeal diligence, and perseverance. As to the voluminous papers with which he had been threatened from the other side, if such paper contributed in the least degree to the defence of the accused, he himself should gladly second the motion for their production. He had been urged to state distinctly the object of his motion; it was impossible to state in a case of such magnitude, on whom the evidence found in these papers might especially bear; and it was, there-
1028
Sir A. Wellesley
explicitly denied that the prince, as stated by the hon. baronet, was imprisoned in a dungeon, or died by any other than natural causes. He thought it became a gentleman of the hon. baronet's profession, to be more cautious in ma–king such charges
Sir T. Turton
maintained that the papers fully bore him out in his assertion, though he did not in the least implicate lord Wel–lesley in that dark transaction
Mr. Fuller
thought the enquiry should be fully gone into
Mr. Sheridan,
while he acquitted in the ful–lest manner the noble lord (Wellesley), had not a doubt upon his mind, that the young prince came to his death by foul and ex–traordinary means.—The motion was then put and carried
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 27.
[INSOLVENT DEBTORS.] Lord Holland
presented a petition from the debtors confined in the king's bench prison, praying for such relief as to the house should seem meet. His lordship observed, that, after what passed last .session respecting this subject, it was almost needless for him to say, that it was not his intention to propose any bill for the relief of insolvent debtors. The petition, indeed, did not pray for any such bill, but rather for a general law respecting debtor and creditor, by the operation of which they might be restored to their families. Of the necessity of some law of this nature there could be no doubt; and he was happy that a s noble friend of his, who had formerly called the attention of the house to this important subject, had again applied his mind to its consideration; and that, in another place, a part of the subject had been taken up by a gentleman of distinguished talents and benevolence. From these circumstances, he looked forward with the greatest satisfaction to the adop-
1029
[TAXATION.] The Earl of Warwick
entreated the indulgence of the house, whilst he endeavoured to state to their lordships the outline of a plan which he wished to propose, with a view of introducing a more equal and equitable system of taxation. At a period like the present, when the great aggrandizement and insatiable ambition of France called upon this country for every exertion that could be made, in order to carry on the war with vigour and effect, when peace was placed at a distance not to be calculated upon, and when all Europe looked to this country as their great stay and hope, it was of the utmost importance to consider how that amount of revenue which must necessarily be had, could be raised with the least pressure upon the people. He objected to the present complicated system of taxation, as not calculated to attain the desired object, and as proceeding upon erroneous data; at present, whilst taxation pressed heavily upon some classes, others in a great degree escaped. His great object was that it should be borne equally and equitably by all. To effect this, he had formed a plan which was totally novel, and which had never yet either been spoken or written upon. The more he had considered this plan, the more he was convinced of its efficiency, and of the inadequacy of the present system of taxation. He objected to making property the criterion of taxation, because it was difficult to define what property was; he would only consider property by means of its sign, labour. The great,objection to the tax upon property was, that whilst it got at some descriptions of property, persons engaged in commerce, in manufactures, in professions, and in various speculations, made what returns of property they pleased, and paid accordingly. He wished that taxation should be equal and equitable, and at the same time general and compulsory, not partial and .voluntary. He had made several calculations for the purpose of establishing the efficiency of his plan, the result of which had astonished him, and would no doubt surprize their lordships; the basis he took was expenditure. Being doubtful whether his voice would enable
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Lord Grenville
thought, that in point of form the motion could not be entertained by the house, as there was no paper before their lordships which could, consistently with the forms of the house, be referred to a committee. With respect to the plan proposed by the noble lord, he had considerable doubts of its efficiency. Expenditure was undoubtedly taken as one of the criterions of direct taxation, it being the sign of wealth; but where the exigencies of the country required a large sum to be raised, the more the amount of taxation necessary to be raised was diffused in different channels, it would be found that the less was the pressure upon the people. It was unquestionably an object of the greatest importance where burthens were to be imposed upon the people, to make them fall as lightly as possible, and the great advantage of indirect taxation was, that it fell to a certain extent upon articles, respecting
1031
The Earl of Warwick
said, his object was not to tax the poorer classes, the employed, but the employers.
The Earl of Selkirk
observed, that in the amount of population stated by the noble lord, a great number-of children must be reckoned,where expenditure of course could not be taken at the proposed rate, but their maintenance must be included in the expenditure of the family.
The Earl of Warwick
said, that that was provided for in his plan, and if the house would allow it to go to a committee, he was convinced that he could prove satisfactorily, by calculations in detail, all that he had stated.—After a short conversation, the motion was withdrawn, as informal, and another substituted by the earl of Warwick for the appointment of a committee to consider of the best mode of raising the revenue; which was put and negatived.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 27.
[MINUTES.]
The following members were chosen a committee to try the merits of the petition complaining of an undue election and return for Wick, Dornock &c.: J. Shaw, T. Brooke, H. Thornton, B, Hobhouse, R. E. D. Grosveror, sir W. Middleton, H. Fane, R. Sharp, R. Wigram, T.Baring, W. Jones, R H. Bradshaw, lord Bernard. Nominees, Peter Moore, right hon. H Erskine.—Lord Folkestone begged leave to call the attention of the house to the Petition of Mr. Paull, which he had presented the preceding day, and upon which he had given notice
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1033
[PETITION. RESPECTING THE WEST-MINISTER ELECTION.] Mr. Biddulph
presented a petition from certain electors of Westminster, inhabitants of the parish of St. Martin's-le-Grand, complaining of a breach of privilege, and praying for the interference of the house. The petition was read by the clerk, and stated in substance: "That the petitioners have learnt with alarm and regret, that on Thursday the 19th of February last, the house had, on the motion of the right hon. R. B. Sheridan, postponed the day for taking into consideration the. petition from J. Paull, esq. complaining of an undue return for the city of Westminister That by that postponement, the petitioners were disfranchised during its continuance, and remained unrepresented in parliament, for one of their representatives, sir S. Hood, was abroad in the execution of his professional duty, and the right hon. R. B. Sheridan, being charged with having procured a colourable majority by means. a bribery and corruption, James Paull, esq. their other. legal representative, was by the proceeding of which they complained, prevented from taking his seat in the house. The petitioners were convinced that the motion of the right hon. R. B. Sheridan, esq. was intended and was calculated not to further, but delay the ends of public justice, for they were certain, and could produce evidence to prove the truth of their
1034
Lord Howick
while he allowed that a member who presented a petition was not responsible for the truth of the matter which it contained, was. yet clearly of opinion, that it was his duty to take care that such petition was not couched in improper and disrespectful terms. He was not disposed to quarrel with any inadvertency of expression; but if there appeared on the face of a petition a studied intention to use insulting language, the house would ill consult its own dignity in not severely animadverting on such an attempt. The present petition set out, in a most unusual manner, by complaining of a vote of that house, which, according to the statement of the petitioners, had disfranchised them, and which had deprived their legal representative of his seat. He believed a petition containing such a complaint could not be entertained. He would remark, by the way, that the first example of postponement was given by the noble lord who presented the original petition to the house against the return of his right lion. friend. But if the. petition set out in an unusual tone, the subsequent parts of it were still more extraordinary. He perfectly understood it to be the right of the people to petition
1035
Mr. C. Wynne
with all his deference for his noble friend, thought that there would be considerable danger in establishing the precedent of allowing a petition couched in such terms to be received. To the matter no man could object, but the manner was such, that in his opinion the house would compromise its own dignity in permitting such a petition to be referred to a committee of privileges.
Lord. Temple
concurred in the opinion that the door of the house ought to be thrown wide open to petitions; but it had a, right to demand, that they should be couched in decent and decorous language. He did not, therefore, think that the house was bound in duty to receive a petition conveyed in such terms as these.
Mr. Fuller
agreed with the noble lord who spoke last, The words were, demand and insist, and the house could not receive a petition conveyed in such terms as were contained in this—[here the hon. gent. threw the petition on the ground]. The house would always feel it a duty to attend to and redress grievances, but it was not bound to receive petitions couched in language that shewed a manifest intention to insult the house. This he maintained, and cared not a farthing who heard him.
Mr, Whitbread
suggested to his hon. friend the propriety of withdrawing the petition, as the general sense of the house appeared to be against it, and presenting another, couched in more proper and moderate terms. It was not the custom to present petitions against the proceedings of the house in affairs of this nature, and the words insist and demand, were certainly objectionable. But that was not the most objectionable part of it, and he should be
1036
The Speaker
said there was nothing in point of form which would prevent the withdrawing of the petition.
Mr. Biddulph
stated, that the petition had been put into his hands, and that he had promised to present it, without having looked at it immediately. He had some doubts after reading it, but having shewn it to some friends of his, members of the house, he had been told by them that it would not be improper to present it. As to that part which related to the proceeding of the house, it was rather a narrative than an accusation. The would insist and demand had been caught at in rather an extraordinary way. All that the petitioners insisted upon and demanded was, that the house should, act upon its own orders. This was the way in which he understood them. The evidence he knew nothing of; but he was not prepared to view the petition in that offensive light in which it appeared to some; and therefore did not feel satisfied that he ought to withdraw it, or confess that he was liable to the imputation of carelessness thrown out against him.
Mr. Montague
put it earnestly to the hon. gent. whether it would not be adviseable to withdraw the petition, as by such a prudent proceeding, extremes upon either side would be avoided, the dignity of the house would not be compromised, and the right of petition would not be intrenched upon. He could not agree with the hon. mover, that the words demand and insist, were merely used as urging the necessary consequences in a clear deduction; for what man, for instance, ever similarly applied such words as to insist and demand that two and two made four? Did Euclid, he asked, ever insist and demand that the three angles of a triangle were equal to two right ones? He besought the hon. member to relieve the embarrassment of the house by withdrawing the petition.
1037
General Vyse
did not think that the petition, being once presented, could be well withdrawn. He thought the words objected to were not of such moment, and believed that they were to be imputed to ignorance or inadvertence.
Mr. Lyttleton
was for rejecting the petition. No man was more a friend to the subject's undoubted right of petition than he was; but he was also a friend to the cause of that house's dignity and honour. In rejecting the petition, he thought he not only consulted the respect of that house, but the dignity of the great body that created it. The people suffered from any insult cast upon its representative body, and no portion of constituents should be allowed to violate the common forms of decency and decorum due from all constituents to the commons house of parliament.
Mr. Lamb
did not think it quite fair that an opinion hazarded by him in private, upon a casual glance of the petition, should be adduced as an authority in that house; he should not, however, shrink in public from any opinion he had maintained in private; he did not think the words of the petition so objectionable: the words alarm and regret, in its commencement, were by no means unparliamentary terms, to express the sensations of petitioners produced by any antecedent act of that house; the other words so much complained of, insist or demand, seemed to be misunderstood, they were addressed to the house as in its judicial capacity.
Mr. Sheridan
fully concurred with an hon, gent. as to the necessity of dismissing from their minds every consideration that tended to irritate or influence. He was aware that it was necessary to hear with temper, in order to decide with firmness. He had gone through the election contest without heat, intemperance, or animosity upon his part, and he should not now be hurried to abandon that moderation to which he had been recently so much indebted. He flattered himself that he had the good fortune to have the best wishes of the hon. member who presented the petition; he had been benefited by his intercourse, and had occasionally been honoured with the enjoyment of his hospitality; he did therefore think that the hon. gent. would have done more justice to his well-known candour, if he had in his application to different friends upon the subject, had some previous communication with him (Mr. S.), before he had presented a charge in which he was so per-
1038
Mr. Robinson
though in a very small Minority upon a former night, against the, right hon. gent., felt it now equally incombent upon him to resist the motion that gentleman had seconded; he thought the language of the petition extremely indecorous. The petitioners complained of their being disfranchised, and the two reasons upon which they grounded that opinion, were truly extraordinary. The first was, that one of their representatives was engaged in the service of his king and country, and could not attend to his duties as a senator. This circumstance, if it constituted either disqualification or disfranchisement was well known to them at the time they elected him for Westminster. The other reason was, that in consequence of the decision of this house, their legal representative was prevented from immediately taking his place in this house. If this could be considered as a cause of disfranchisement,
1039
Mr. Adam
submitted to the judgement of the house, whether the present petition did not require alteration? It was universally admitted, that the right of petitioning was certainly inherent in the constitution; but it was equally a matter of fact, and generally understood, that the member should attentively consider, and be responsible for the allegations of the petitions which he should think it his duty to present. The first question was, whether the present petition should be referred to a committee of privileges? In the mean time, another question had arisen, with respect to certain indecorous terms inserted in it. The opposition was not to the substance or mode, with an intention of refusing its prayer, but was solely directed against the language which it breathed, as being inconsistent with the dignity and forms of the house. If the object was to obtain full and substantial justice, he recommended to the hon. gent. to withdraw it for the purpose of alteration, pledging himself to bring it forward on a future occasion. By such conduct the dignity of the house, the right of petition, and the privileges of the people would each be respectively preserved.
Mr. Biddulph
declared himself unwilling to trespass on the time of the house, but he found himself called upon to reply to some observations which had fallen from hon. gentlemen on the other side. He could assure one hon. member (Mr. Lamb), that he had not the remotest idea of an improper allusion to him, nor did he make any incorrect use of the authority of his name. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) had charged him, in a way more or less gentlemanly, of a want of frankness, in not communicating his intention with respect to this petition. On this point he could only say, that the necessity never occurred to him. Was it a new case, and had it not been previously brought before the house, he certainly would have apprised the right hon. gent. With respect to the petition itself, he should consider himself a very bad advocate, were he to persevere in pressing it, contrary to the general feeling of the house; but he might be allowed to state his opinion, that it was the strong expression of unlettered men,
1040
Mr. Sheridan
said, he was forced to yield his consent, more to comply with the wish of the house, than any inclination of his own. The petition was accordingly withdrawn.
[SLAVE-TRADE ABOLITION BILL.]
On the order of the day being read for the house resolving itself into a committee on the slave-trade abolition bill,
Sir Charles Pole
declared himself so impressed with the impolicy of the abolition, that he was induced, in every stage, to thwart a bill, ruinous to the colonies and to the commerce of the country; a measure which would put into the hands of the enemy, those objects on which he had so steadfastly fixed his attention, and the want of which, in a great degree, restrained the progress of his arms, and prevented the accomplishment of those menaces, with which he had so long threatened this empire. It was a great sacrifice to risk one-third of the British exports, besides imports to a large amount, independent of the employment given to such a number of seamen, as were annually engaged in the trade with Africa. He wished not to delay the house, but he strenuously recommended a prolongation of the time when the bill should begin to operate, and a total change of the preamble of the bill.
Mr. Hughan
on rising for the first time to address the house, solicited the indulgence usually extended t young members, and declared, that a consciousness of his own inexperience in debate would have deterred him from delivering his sentiments on the present occasion, did not an imperious sense of duty, an irresistible impression of the magnitude and importance of the question to the best interests of the state, rise paramount to all other ,considerations, and induce him to appeal to the sober and deliberate judgement of the house, against that strain of eloquent declamation which, on a former evening, had been so zealously and successfully employed to rouse the passions, to overpower and mislead the reason. He trusted that an humble individual might be permitted to raise his voice in defence of that system of our an-
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1046
Mr. Anthony Browne
not having succeeded in procuring the speaker's notice, on the second reading of the bill, was desirous of explaining briefly the grounds on which his opposition was founded. He did not defend the slave trade, with reference to Holy Writ, or to any existing moral or political evil of our own government; on the contrary, he admitted that the trade was a great political evil of itself; but yet it was an evil interwoven with the most important interests of the country, and with a complication of private interests on which thousands and thousands of our fellow subjects depended! the redress of which should be relatively considered, and taking into view, on the one hand, the radical barbarous internal situation of Africa, the inadequate and incomplete object of that abolition which was proposed by the bill, and on the other, the magnitude of the danger to the colonies, he was of opinion, that the remedy was worse than the disease, and that we were incurring a most fearful risk, without the power or the means, of extending to Africa, the practical benefits of those principles of justice and humanity on which the bill was speciously founded. He entered into a minute description of the Situation and circumstances of Africa, to shew that a state of slavery was the radical and incurable inheritance of her soil, not induced by the slave trade, but arising from the petty divisions of her states,
1047
1048
Mr. Barham
entered into an exculpation of the planters in the West Indies, from the charge of cruelty to the slaves, and quoted several instances of kindness and humanity on the part of the overseers towards the slaves, and the gratitude of the latter in return. He considered that, in order to promote any thing of civilization and religion among the negroes, it would be necessary to educate them, and to accomplish that, it would necessary to give them more liberty: this however, would be a dangerous experiment, and he was at a loss to say, what would be the best mode to remedy the evil. From his own experience, he was not warranted in supposing that the negro population could be kept up in the colonies. He had not, on his plantation, neglected any means that humanity or prudence could suggest to keep up his stock, to which he had determined, for years back, not to add a single newly purchased slave, and yet he had not been able to succeed. If any means could be devised for so desirable an end, he should be very happy to make the experiment; but he much feared that none such was likely to offer. Still he was determined, upon the principles of humanity, to support the Abolition, regret-
1049
Mr. Courtenay
as the great majority on the second reading of the bill had been ascribed by some of the members to a pathetic and persuasive appeal to the passions which had hurried the house into a precipitate vote, remarked, that the abolition bill would have passed many years ago, if oratory alone governed and directed the decisions of the house; for many members of the house, he said, still must remember the strenuous and noble exertions of two eminent statesmen of the most distinguished and splendid talents, who had displayed the superior power of their capacious minds on this most interesting question. The vigour, the logical precision, the commanding and luminous eloquence of the one, blended and associated with the copious, brilliant, and impressive eloquence of the other, penetrated the most callous and obdurate hearer, and carried conviction to the most prejudiced and interested understanding. No more rivals fur power, or divided on some great political principle, but cordially united like brothers in the sacred cause of justice and humanity, we hay only to lament that they no longer exist, the pride and ornament of the country, to enjoy the glorious triumph of their genies and virtue. I shall now presume to add a word on the merits of another gentleman, the original mover of the question. The great and brilliant eloquence we so lately heard, still vibrates on the ears a the house; but he has his reward—
"What nothing earthly gives, or can destroy, The soul's calm sunshine, and the heart-felt joy"
1050
Sir Ralph Milbanke
could not do justice to the sentiments of his Constituents, nor to his own, if he were to give a silent vote in favour of the bill. He therefore offered a few observations in support of it.
Mr. Montague
spoke in favour of the abolition, to which he had, from his earliest years, devoted himself with a zeal and attention inferior only to those of his hon. friend (Mr. Wilberforce). He would ask one of the opposers of the bill, who was a member of the board of aldermen of London, whether he would think it a happy change, to be snatched away from one of the city banquets, and crammed into a slave ship as the blacks were? He blamed the planters for not making preparation in compliance with the notices they had received.
Mr. Hibbert
in reply to his hon. friend, observed, that he was now in the very situation he had described. He was now no longer an alderman of the city of London; he no longer banqueted upon the luxuries of the civic board, but bore the burthen of a slave; for he had embarked all his property in our West-India colonies; he felt the shackles of the slave about him, and he no longer enjoyed that freedom he was before possessed of. After some general observations, he concluded by expressing his decided opposition to the measure in its present shape.
Mr. Bathurst
objected to the principle of the bill, as well as to the consequences which would unavoidably result from passing it into a law. He recommended a gradual decrease.
Mr. Jacob
contended, that the abolition itself would furnish ample compensation to the planters, as it must naturally tend to enhance the value of their present negroes and plantations, while he argued that a continuance of this traffic would, by operating to increase the means of cultivation, serve to extend the produce, which was already superabundant, and thus lead to the ruin of the planters more immediately and effectively than could, by any calculation, be apprehended from an immediate abolition.— Amidst a loud cry of question! question!.
Mr. Secretary Windham rose
and said, from the lateness of the hour and the eagerness which the house very naturally felt to go into the committee, be should reserve the sentiments which he entertained upon this important subject for another stage of this bill. Differing, as he did upon this question, from many of those whom he
1051
Mr. Whitbread
said, when a man of such enlightened mind, and such known humanity as his right hon. friend, thought it necessary to get up at that hour to state his perseverance in his opposition to the abolition,.and to his own original sentiments, he felt it incumbent on him to declare his conviction of the justice and truth of the uniform consent he had given to the sentiments, and the propriety of the support he had given to the efforts of the hon. gent. who was the chief promoter of that measure, (Mr. Wilberforce). The able speeches he had heard in the recent discussions confirmed the opinions he had entertained, The same exploded arguments, the same groundless and disproved assertions which had been so often refuted on former occasions, were all that could be now advanced against this bill. The cruelties, incapable of being exaggerated by any. mouth or mind, which the house was called upon to abolish, were inherent in the thing, and not the result of the individual disposition of the planters, many of whom were, he was sure, men of great humanity. The islands had had sufficient warning, and if they were not prepared for the abolition of the trade now, they never would. If we abolished the trade on our part, we should have done our duty, and given to other na
1052
Mr. Fuller
was of opinion, that the abolition of the slave trade would have the effect of rendering the condition of the slaves much worse in the West-India islands. The negroes upon his estate were more Comfortable than labourers in this country, and it would be his desire to place them upon the same footing in every respect. This, however, was impossible, because the fertility of the soil was such in many parts of the West Indies,that by the labour of a day and a half per week, one negro could procure support for a whole family, and in that case would not be disposed to work; so that it was necessary to keep them employed by moderate disicipline.
Mr. Herbert
of Kerry, in pursuance of the instructions of his constituents, was bound to vote for the abolition and after all he had read and heard upon the subject, he could not conceive any good ground for the continuance of the trade.
1053
Lord Howick
was far from expecting that, after the solemn decision which had already taken place on-the bill, it would again have undergone such a protracted discussion. At so late an hour he would not enter into any-reply to predictions of ruin,&c. to the country, if this measure was adopted. Another occasion would offer for that purpose, when he trusted be should be able to prove, that, so far from being in any. degree, detrimental to the interests of the country, it must powerfully conduce to its prosperity and glory. At so late an hour, he should not attempt to go into the nature of the clauses which it was his intention to move in the committee; but if the house was inclined to save much of their time and attention, they would agree to what he should now propose, namely, to pass the bill through the committee,
pro formâ
General Gascoync
said, that he had no wish on his part to renew the debate, but that if any other gentleman thought proper to do so, he should not think himself precluded from answering many of the objections that had that night been urged against the opposers of the bill.—The question was now universally called for, and carried without a division. The house then went into a committee upon the bill
pro formâ
HOUSE OF LORDS
Monday, March 2.
[MINUTES.]
Lord Grenville
presented a message from his majesty respecting the treaty with Prussia, and an advance subsidy. (see House of Commons). On the motion of lord Granville, his majesty's message was ordered to be taken into consideration to-morrow, and the lords to be summoned.—On the first reading of the bill for repealing so much of the act relating to the South Sea company as confers on that company an exclusive right to trade to certain parts of South America, lord Redesdale presented a petition from the South Sea Company, praying to be heard by counsel
1054
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 2.
[MINUTES.]
The Speaker acquainted the house, that he had received from major-general sir John Stuart, the following letter, in return to the thanks of this house, signified to him, in obedience to their commands of the 22d of December last:—
"Baker Street, 28th Feb. 1807. Sir; it is since my return to England that I have been honoured with an authenticated copy of your letter of the 24th Dec. (of which the original had been addressed from Mr. secretary Windham's office to the Mediterranean), transmitting the unanimous vote of thanks of the house of commons of the 22d of the same month, to the general and other officers, to the troops, and to myself, in token of its satisfaction at the conduct and result of the action with the French forces, on the 4th of July last, on the plains of Maida in Calabria. I shall fulfil a most grateful duty in obeying the command of the house, to communicate to the army, as above directed, the great and public
1055
"Walter Jury; A select committee of this house, appointed to try and determine the merits of a petition, complaining of an undue election and return for the borough of Maidstone, have reported, that you being called before them as a witness, did upon your examination misbehave your self, grossly prevaricating, and refusing to give evidence. For that offence you were thereupon ordered into custody; and by this house afterwards committed to his majesty's gaol of Newgate. The tribunal before which you were summoned, is justly dear to parliament and the country; and this house will not endure that its dignity should be insulted, or its authority eluded, with impunity. Sworn to declare the truth between the parties, and again admonished of the solemn obligation under which you stood, you nevertheless thought fit to persist in your prevarications, until it was manifest that your obstinacy was wilful and criminal: and this house has accordingly branded your misconduct, by sentencing you to an imprisonment with male factors and felons. At length by your petition it appears that you acknowledge your offence, and express your contrition: the ends therefore of public justice are attained; and it remains only for you, by a sacred regard to veracity, through the remainder of your life, to
1056
nem. con
"G. R. His majesty thinks proper to acquaint the house of commons, that a treaty of peace has been concluded between his majesty and the king of Prussia, a copy of which, as soon as the ratification thereof shall have been exchanged, his majesty will communicate to this house. And his majesty thinks it proper further to apprise this house, that his majesty's minister, who signed that treaty, has, in pursuance of an authority granted to him by his majesty for that purpose, and in consequence of the great urgency of the state of affairs in those countries, which are now the seat of war, taken upon himself to make an advance of money to the Prussian government, to the amount of about 80,000
l
[MR. PAULL'S PETITION RESPECTING THE WESTMINSTER ELECTION.]
Lord Folkestone
moved, that the order of the day for taking into consideration the petition of James Paull, esq. be now read.
Mr. Sheridan
begged leave to make one observation before the order should be read. He had heard that it was the intention of certain gentlemen, during the investigation, to insist upon the exclusion of strangers. He was aware, in an allusion of this kind, that he was not strictly confining himself within the prescribed limits of order,but his situation was a peculiar one; assailed in the most public manner, he earnestly wished that his defence should be as public. He was anxious not only that his conduct should be known to all, but that all should be enabled to understand the mean and perfidious calumnies that aspersed it.
Mr. P. Moore
said, that he held in his hand 3 petitions from some most respectable gentlemen, who, feeling themselves grossly traduced by the allegations set forth in the petition of Mr. Paul], prayed to be allowed to meet and confront such alle-
1057
Lord Folkestone
thought the petitions premature, as they seemed to pre-suppose the allegations in Mr. Paull's petition already substantiated.
Mr. Sheridan
was convinced that the noble lord did not mean any thing unfair or dishonourable, and that therefore he could not mean to summon witnesses against him, and deny him the opportunity of refuting their assertions by opposite testimony. Arraigned as he was of having either himself of by his agents, tampered with witnesses, it surely could not be intended to deny him the privilege of disproving the truth of the, charge at the bar.
Lord Howick
thought that the petition had a just claim to be laid on the table of the house, and that when the proper time came, the petitioner ought to be heard at the bar, in his own defence.—The petitions were then ordered to lie on the table.
Lord Howick
declared, that feeling every desire that this transaction should be investigated in such a manner as to satisfy the public, and anxious to remove the slightest pretence for accusing the house of an intention to deprive the petitioner of the means of supporting his charge, he, for one, would be willing to allow, that, the counsel should be heard; but he wished the house to observe, as a guide to their proceedings, that since the passing of Mr. Grenville's bill, it had been the practice to abstain from hearing at the
1058
Mr. T. Grenville
was of opinion that the present case ought to go to a committee. While the house looked only to the examination of facts in having the case proceeded upon at the bar, a precedent might be established which might tend to much inconvenience, and much mischief hereafter. He was, he confessed, more inclined than others seemed to be, to doubt of the propriety of the house having proceeded even so far as it had already done. But if it was improper to have gone so far, it would be much more improper to go farther. The question before the house seemed to him, if not an integral part of that which was reserved by the Grenville act, for the decision of a select committee, at least so nearly to border on it, as that it would be impossible to keep the two objects distinct. He had no doubt that under the Grenville act, a committee was perfectly competent to do the justice required in this case, if the facts alleged could be substantiated or completely falsified. The committee might Make a special report, if either should be found guilty of improper practices. If no inconvenience could arise to public justice, as he thought none could in this case, he was of opinion the house ought not to interfere with a jurisdiction so nearly connected if not altogether identified with that which it had, by a solemn act, put out of its own hands, and delegated to its committees. He did not suppose that the members in the house unsworn were a less desireable tribunal than the sworn members of a committee. But there was no doubt, that a sworn committee, with its attention particularly directed to the objects it was to try, was as eligible a tribunal as the house unsworn. He was so strongly convinced that this was a case that ought to be reserved to a committee, that he felt an indispensable duty to state his opinion to the house, though he could not hope that any opinion of his would have such weight with the house as to lead its decision. If, notwithstanding the considerations he had thrown out, the house should persevere in the present course, he was of opinion that there
1059
Mr. Baker
thought the house ought to protect the witnesses summoned to give evidence at its bar, and that no gentleman having a seat in the house ought to speak of witnesses about to come to the bar,
in the terms of reprehension lately used a right hon. gent.
The
Attorney-General
thought it necessary to oppose himself a moment to the impatience of the house, in order to suggest the justice and propriety of allowing the benefit of witnesses and counsel to all the parties, as well as to the one that wet already allowed to be so heard.
Mr. Sheridan
wished the house to go directly, into the business. As to counsel,
he had no objection to give his opponents all the counsel in the realm. For himself he asked no counsel, but the justice and rectitude of that honourable house. What the petitioners connected with him might wish for, he knew not.—On the suggestion of lord Howick.
The
Speaker
was instructed to acquaint the counsel when called to the bar, that it was the pleasure of the house that be should confine himself to the matters fact alleged in the petition, to which he meant to adduce evidence.
Mr. Warren,
counsel for Mr. Paull, was then called in, and being instructed by the
1060
1061
1062
l
1063
General Phipps
observed, that when counsel and witnesses were ordered to withdraw from the bar, it was not to be allowed that a petitioner should take the advantage of an indulgence which the house granted in such case, not to insist or the witness withdrawing more than a foot or two below the bar, instead of outside of the door; it should not be permitted that a petitioner should lay hold of such an opportunity for conversing with the witness, or making observations on whatever might fall from any hon. member of that house.
Mr. Paull,
from below the bar, lamented that he had not an opportunity of fairly answering what was said in that house with reference to himself. But when he heard an observation so gross as that which had bean made by the hon. general— Here the petitioner was prevented from proceeding any further, by the authority of the chair, and was ordered to withdraw.
Speaker
Lord Howick
had been so surprized at the extraordinary conduct of the petitioner that he had only been prevented by his
1064
Lord A. Hamilton
urged in mitigation, not in justification of the petitioner, the feelings that must have been excited by the statement made by the hon. member under the gallery.
Mr. Whitbread
had never had his eye off that part of the house since the commencement of this investigation, and assured the house that Mr. Paull had never gone out.
Mr. Baker
submitted whether it would not be better than the house should not have any direct communication with him, but that whatever was to be done on the occasion should be done through the serjeant at arms.—The motion of lord Howick was then agreed to, and the petitioner and his counsel having been called in.
Speaker
T. Weatherhead
was next examined. He stated, that he had been long acquainted with Drake, who had been a shipmate of his. Drake and he called at Mr. Sheridan's, in Somerset Place, on the 19th of Feb. He there saw a very motley crew, such as he had never met before, and such as he wished never to meet again. He waited sometime in a large room with this company; when Mr. S. came in. Mr. S. addressed himself principally to Drake, with whom he continued in close conversation, elbow to elbow, for above ten minutes. They were at the opposite side of the room from where witness stood. He did not hear any part of their conversation, nor did he think it was audible to any other person in the room.
1065
1066
1067
1068
s
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1069
Mr. Whitbread
observed, that, in a case where a wish was expressed to punish others for impeding or preventing the regular course of justice by tampering with witnesses, he had never heard of a set of witnesses who more justly merited the censure of the tribunal before which they gave their testimony, than those who had then been examined at the bar of the house, particularly the witness Richardson.
Sir J. Anstruther
thought that the hon. gent. was too limited in his idea of censure; he (sir J.) was of opinion that Balam was the principal man: it was he that employed Richardson; and it was necessary, for the ends of justice, that some means should be taken to secure the witnesses, as was usual in a court of criminal judicature, to answer for their scandalous prevarication.
Mr. Sheridan
intimated that, if he should think it necessary to go into any evidence or his case, it would amount to a recrimination against those who brought the present charge before the house.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 3
[PRUSSIA.]
The order of the day having been read for taking into consideration his majesty's message,
Lord Grenville
said, with, respect to that part of the message in which his majesty informed the house of the conclusion of treaty with Prussia, as it was also stated that a copy of the treaty would be laid before the house as soon as the ratifications were exchanged, he thought it unnecessary then to enter into any detail respecting it the proper time for discussing the subject being when the treaty should be before the house. With respect to the other part of his majesty's message, relative to the ad-
1070
l
l
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 3.
[FINANCE RESOLUTIONS.] Sir James Pulteney
rose for the purpose of moving his Resolutions on Finance, pursuant to his former notice. He did not propose to enter into any detailed observations on his plan, till his calculations should be before the house, and should then content himself with shewing that a considerable saving would accrue from the adoption of his views, without any inconvenience whatever, The necessity stated by the noble lord; on a former ocasion, of giving an advantage to the stockholder, by increasing the amount of the sinking fund, would be met by his plan. If it should be necessary to increase the sinking fund, that might be done at any time, and any to amount, by a loan, which would bring a large sum into the market, and keep up the price of stocks. If he could spew this, he should hope to
1071
. "That, in the New Plan of Finance, it is proposed to mortgage, during each year of war, a certain portion of the War Taxes, to provide for the payment of the Interest and Sinking Fund of part of the Loan, which shall be made in that year; and also to provide what shall be further wanted for the Public Service by a Supplementary Loan."
"That, the War ,Expenditure being stated at 32,000,000
l
l
. "That if no part of the War Taxes
l
l
l
l
l
1072
l
l
."That the Sinking Fund may in each year be carried to the amount proposed for such year in the New Plan, by making a Supplementary Loan equal to the amount of the difference between the Sinking Fund, as it would otherwise stand for such year, and the amount proposed in such Plan for the purpose of supplying that difference."
"That such Supplementary Loan, when added to the Sinking Fund, by reducing an amount of Interest equal to the charge of Interest increased by raising the same, it is obvious, that, whatever advantage might result from so large an increase of Sinking Fund, operating in the market, (if an increase to the amount proposed by the New Plan, and wholly produced by adding to the Loan of the year, can really be deemed advantageous,) might equally be obtained by this mode, without any additional burthen to the public."'
. "That the smallness of the Loan for the service of the year, in proportion to the Sinking Fund, must also have a tendency to keep up the price of Funds."
. "That this advantage will result in a greater degree from the system of borrowing 11,000,000
l
. "That this mode of providing for the War Expenditure, would consequently be more advantageous to the public, and to the Stockholder, than the New Plan; and that if, upon the return of peace, a portion of the War Taxes exactly equal to what would be pledged at the same period, by the New Plan, were then to be pledged, to meet the annual charge of such portion of the Total Debt, as that amount of taxes would provide for at an interest of 10 per cent., including the Sinking Fund upon the
1073
"That the debt on the War Taxes, being in the same manner deducted on the return of peace, from the Total Debt which may have then been contracted upon the New Plan, the remainder would be the Permanent Debt incurred by that Plan, and that, the Sinking Fund of the War Taxes being deducted from the total Sinking Fund, which may have in arisen within the same period, the remainder would be the Permanent Sinking Fund."
"That the operations of the mode now proposed, whilst they afford some comparative advantage during the continuance of the War, would place the Finances of the county in a much more favourable situation, at the restoration of peace, than those of the New Plan, at whatever period peace may be concluded; and that at the termination of the period of 20 years the comparison would be as follows:—
Permanent Debt by the New Plan
£. 318,311,495
Permanent Debt by the mode proposed
285,595,705
Less Debt by the mode proposed
£. 32,715,790
Sinking Fund, mode proposed
14,359,900
Sinking Fund of the New Plan
12,762,691
Larger Sinking Fund by mode proposed
£1,597,209
Amount of Taxes imposed by the New Plan
£ 2,051,000
Amount of Taxes imposed by mode proposed
£ 1,983,228
Less amount of Taxes by the mode proposed
£.65,772
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 4.
[MUTINY BILL—ROMAN CATHOLICS.]
Lord
Howick,
1074
pro formâd,
Mr. Yorke
was glad that the noble lord had adopted the plan of bringing forward his regulations respecting the Roman Catholics as a separate measure.
[COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY—PRUSSIA.]
The house went into a committee of supply, on the motion of lord Henry Petty. The king's message of Monday relative to Prussia having been read,
Lord Henry Petty
stated, that it was unnecessary for him to recall to the recollection of the house the circumstances under which lord Hutchinson had left this country for the continent, and the state of the continent at that period. That noble lord had been dispatched, as well for the purpose of communicating such information as might be necessary to this country, as to afford such aid as could be conveniently granted to the king of Prussia in the unfortunate circumstances in which he was then placed. Shortly after his arrival at his destination, he had made an advance of 80,000
l
l
Mr. Bankes
wished to know when the noble lord intended that the report of the committee should be brought up, as he had some observations to make upon this subject.
Lord H. Petty
answered, that it was his intention to have it reported to-morrow; but if it should be wished, he had no objec-
1075
[COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANS—BUDGET.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,
Lord Henry Petty,
pursuant to notice, rose to state the terms of the Loan, and to recapitulate the Supplies and Ways and Means of the year. As an opportunity had already been afforded him, from the nature of the Plan of Finance, which, on a former occasion, he had opened to the house, of adverting in a detailed view to the extent of the supplies and ways and means of the year, he did not feel it then necessary for him to go at large into the statements he had formerly submitted to the house. But, as the loan had since been negociated, and as the time that had elapsed, enabled him to make the several statements with more accuracy than in the first instance he might have done, he hoped for the indulgence of the committee, whilst he shortly recapitulated the several branches of the supply and ways and means of the year; after which he proposed to state the terms upon which the contract for the loan of the year had been concluded, and then to explain what part of the Ways and Means of the year would be permanent:
SUPPLY.
Navy, exclusive of 422,500
l
16,997,837
Army, Great Britain £10,202,968 Ireland
3,445,130
Making together
13,648,098
Barracks, Great Britain £506,237 Ireland
469,450
Together
975,687
Commissary-General's Department
841,526
Making altogether for the different branches of the Army Expenditure
£.15,465,311
Extraordinaries, Great Britain
£.2,950,000
Ireland
600,000
Together
3,550,000
Excess of Extraordinaries this year
793,710
Making the Total Army Charge
19,809,021
Ordnance, including 422,500
l
3,264,469
Ireland
479,246
Making together
3,743,715
Miscellaneous Services for Great Britain
1,200,000
Ireland
660,000
Vote of Credit
3,000,000
l
1076
l
l
l
l
The apportionment of the Votes of Credit was, for Great Britain
2,800,000
For Ireland
200,000
Together
£.3,000,000
The whole of the joint charges as he had stated, would be
45,396,575
To which was to be added Interest of Exchequer Bills
1,200,000
Loyalty Loan to be paid off
350,000
Deficiency of Malt Tax, 1805
200,000
Which made the Total Charge
47,046,575
Deduct 2–17ths for Ireland
5,545,677
Remains to be defrayed by Great Britain
41,500,898
Land and Malt
£.2,750,000
Surplus of Consolidated Fund
3,500,000
War Taxes this year
19,800,000
Lottery
320,000
Vote of Credit
3,000,000
Loan
12,200,000
Surplus of Ways and Means, 1805
171,185
Making a Total of
£.41,671,185
Excess over Supples
170,286
l
Three per Cent. Reduced
£.70
0
0
Three per Cent. Consols
70
0
0
Navy Five per Cents
10
12
0
Being at an Interest of
4
14
7
1077
l
s
d
l
s
l
l
Mr. Rose
wished to call the attention of the house to the statement of the noble lord. The noble lord had excluded from his consideration, in the first formation of his plan any estimate founded upon the subsidies that might be necessary, and yet scarcely a month had elapsed, when the noble lord came forward with a provision for subsidies to the amount of nearly one
1078
l
Lord H. Petty
replied by appealing to every gentleman who bad heard him, whether he had not distinctly excepted extraordinary expenditure by subsidies, and produced by a bill of stores and other articles, from his estimate of 32 millions? He wished again to set himself right with the right hon. gent. and the house on this point. The expenditure of the present year afforded the only comparatively certain data whereon to found any calculation of the prospective expenditure of the country. The expenditure in subsidies could not be anticipated, and therefore ought not to have been taken into any certain calculation.
Sir T. Turton
observed, that the noble lord had kindled with the warmth of a generous mind at the charge of fallacy; but this was not meant in any individious sense. The event had proved, that from some cause or other the expenditure could not be confined to 32 millions. If the idea, therefore, had gone out among the public, that this criterion was correct, there was, no doubt, a fallacy with respect to the public. He asked, whether the 500,000
l
1079
l
l
Mr. Vansittart
replied, that it was to wind up the account of former years. He entered into a short explanation of the subject before the committee; after which the resolutions were agreed to, and the house having been resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
[IRISH MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES—ROMAN CATHOLIC COLLEGE.] Mr. Hobhouse
brought up the report of the committee of supply. The resolutions (grants for the service of Ireland) were read and agreed to, until the resolution for granting the sum of 13,000
l
Mr. Perceval
rose to oppose the said grant. Since he had last stated his opinion to the house on that subject, he had taken no slight means of acquiring information, and the result of his enquiry went more stedfastly to fix the motives of his opposition. It was not the amount of the sum, increased as it was in the present instance, that solely excited his bostility; it was in the growing nature of the demand, that he saw the strongest ground of alarm. As the Irish parliament had thought such a measure of policy advisable, he was still willing to retain the principle of meeting that determination; indeed, the united legislature were bound by the principles of good faith to continue the grant. But there was a wide difference between the allowance of a grant, averaged annually at 8000
l
l
1080
1081
1082
l
l
Sir John Newport.—Mr. Speaker
I feel myself able to convince the house, and I hope the hon. and learned gent. on the points of difference between us, by adverting to the acts of the Irish parliament which particularly referred to the catholic seminary at Maynooth. If, indeed, the learned gent. had adverted to them, his surprise that the demand for that institution had increased from the average grant of 8,000
l
l
l
1083
1084
Mr. Bankes
objected to the additional grant now moved for, because its object was to double the number of the students for catholic priesthood in Ireland, and would consequently make the sum of 5,000
l
Mr. Grattan
thought that in a question of this kind, that involved the education of a great portion of the population of the empire, any sect of Christians should be tolerated, as any one sect of religion was better than no religion at all. He was as-
1085
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Lord Mahon.—Mr. Speaker;
I can by no means coincide with the opinion and conclusions of the hon. and learned gent.
1086
Mr. Wilberforce
felt unaffected pain in offering his sentiments upon this subject. He wished, however, to be candidly understood. He was not, he confessed, one of those men who entertained those large and liberal views on religious subjects, insisted upon with so much energy by the right hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Grattan); he was not so much like a certain ruler, of whom it had upon a late occasion been so happily said, that he was an honorary member of all religions. He could not help saying, that he thought the institution in question would tend to discourage the growth of protestantism in Ireland. He must add, however, that he thought the policy of this country's conduct towards that part of the empire had been a most illiberal and ill-judged one. This dangerous system of intolerance and persecution had been too long preserved, and could not be too speedily abated. At the same time, if protentantism was to be encouraged in Ireland, certainly the Maynooth seminary did not contribute to that most desirable effect. As a sincere friend to the Protestant religion, he was unwilling to extend an establishment which would prevent the propagation of that religion. He allowed it was not only criminal but cruel in the highest degree to oppress or restrain the Catholic religion; but it was no oppression not to favour it to the detriment of the Protestant establishment.
Lord Howick
agreed in the principle of his hon. friend, that it was not only criminal but cruel to persecute any religious sect, but it was something very like
1087
1088
i
APPENDIX
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
TABLES AND CALCULATIONS RESPECTING THE PLAN OF FINANCE PROPOSED TO PARLIAMENT IN 1807. See page 564.
THE amounts of the PUBLIC DEBT appearing throughout these calculations, are computed, not on the nominal capital of the debt, but on its money capital, or real value, according to the different prices of the Funds assumed in the respective Tables. Thus, in those Tables which are calculated on the present rate of interest, or 5 per cent., the 3 per cents. are valued at 60; the 4 per cents. at 80; and the 5 per cents. at par: and the whole amount of debt is stated on the result of those different valuations. The Sinking Funds, being in all cases paid in money, are of course not liable to any such distinction between nominal and real value.—It is also necessary to observe, that in the several Tables F. & G.—H. & I. in which the amount of Debt and of Sinking Fund in different years are stated, all those sums are calculated upon a supposition of the operation of this plan; and therefore the amounts in the columns of Sinking Funds express not the total amount to which those funds would have accumulated, if no deduction had been made from them, but the amount as it would stand, after deducting from them those portions of the excesses of the Sinking Fund, above the interest of the unredeemed debt, which are to be made applicable to the public service.
N. B. A small variation will be found to have arisen in the calculations of some of the amounts of the Sinking Funds of the Supplementary Loans, from the circumstance of their having been computed by decimal fractions. But the difference in the results is too small to be of any importance.
ii
LIST OF THE TABLES; WITH THEIR CONTENTS.
I. —TABLES RESPECTING WAR-LOANS.
A.—Shews the amount of the loans which will be charged on the war taxes in each year, and of the portions of the war taxes which will be successively pledged to provide for the interest and sinking funds of such loans.—3 per cents. at 60.
A. 2.—Shews the effect of a six per cent. sinking fund operating in the redemption of debt at 4 per cent. interest.—3 per cents. at 75.
A. 3.—Shews the effect of a seven per cent. sinking fund, operating in the redemption of debt at 3 per cent.—3 per cents. at par.
II.—TABLE SHEWING THE AMOUNT OF SUPPLEMENTARY LOANS, TO PROVIDE FOR THE PRESENT EXPENDITURE.
B.—Shews the means by which an annual extraordinary expenditure, to the amount of 32,000,000
l
III.—TABLE SHEWING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DEBT CREATED, AND SINKING FUND APPLIED IN EACH YEAR.
B. 2.—Shews the difference between the total amount of the loans to be raised in each year;—and the total amount of the sinking funds of the same year, after deducting from the latter the excesses to be taken from them, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents. at 60.
B. 3.—Shews the difference between the total amount of debt which was created in each year, and the total amount of the sink-
iii
B. 4.—Shews the difference between the total amount of the loans to be raised in each year, and the total amount of the sinking funds in the same year, after deducting from the latter the excesses to be taken from them, according to the proposed plan. — 3 per cents: at various prices, from 60 to 75.
B. 5.—Shews the difference between the total amount of the loans to be raised in each year, and the total amount of the sinking funds in the same year, after deducting the excesses to be taken from them, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
B. 6.—Shews at one view the results of tables B. 2.—B. 4.—and B. 5.
IV.—TABLES SHEWING THE AMOUNT OF INTEREST AND SINKING FUND OF SUPPLEMENTARY LOANS, AND THE AMOUNT OF NEW TAXES TO BE RAISED FOR THAT PURPOSE.
C. —Shews the amount of the supplementary loans, and of the interest and sinking fund to be provided for on account of the same in each year; and the amount of new taxes which will be required for that purpose, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents. at 60.
C. 2.—Shews the amount of the supplementary loans, and the interest and sinking fund to be provided for on account of the same in each year; and the amount of new taxes which will be required for that purpose, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents at various prices, from 60 to 75.
C. 3.—Shews the amount of the supplementary loans, and the interest, and sinking fund to be provided for on account of the same in each year; and the amount of new taxes which will be required for that purpose, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
C. 4.—Shews at one view the results of tables C.—and C. 3.
V.—TABLES RELATING TO THE EXCESSES OF THE PRESENT SINKING FUND.
D.—Shews the amount of such portions of the excesses of the present sinking fund above the interest of the present debt, as will be applied in each year, from the commencement of 1817, in the reduction of the amount of new taxes; according to th
D. 2.—Shews the amount of such por-
iv
D. 3.—Shews the amount of such portions of the excesses of the present sinking fund, above the interest of the present debt, as will be applied in each year, from the commencement of 1817, in the reduction of the amount of new taxes, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
D. 4.—Shews at one view the results of tables D.—D. 2.—and D. 3.
E.—Shews the total amount of the excesses of the present sinking fund, above the interest of the present debt, as they would stand if the whole excesses were deducted as they arise, instead of deducting only the portions of those excesses stated in table D.—3 per cents. at 60.
E. 2.—Shews the total amount of the excesses of the present sinking fund above the interest of the present debt, as they would stand if the whole excesses were deducted as they arise, instead of deducting only the portions of those excesses stated in table D. 2.—3 per. cents. at various prices, from 60 to 75.
E. 3.—Shews the total amount of the excesses of the present sinking fund, above the interest of the present debt, as they would stand if the whole excesses were deducted as they arise, instead of deducting only the portions of those excesses stated in table D. 3.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
E. 4.—Shews at one view the results of tables E.—E. 2.—and E. 3.
VI. TABLES SHEWING THE AMOUNTS OF THEIR RESPECTIVE DEBTS AND THEIR.RESPECTIVE SINKING FUNDS.
WAR LOANS.
F.—Shews the total amount of the debt to be charged on the war taxes; and of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction in each year.—3 per cents at 60.
F. 2.—Shews the total amount of the debt to be charged on the war taxes; and of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction in each year.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 75.
F. 3.—Shews the total amount of the debt to be charged on the war taxes; and of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction in each year.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
v
F. 4.—Shews at one view the different results of tables F.—F. 2—and F. 3.
SUPPLEMENTARY LOANS.
G.—Shews the total amount of the debt created by supplementary loans, and of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction in each year—3 per cents. at 60.
G. 2.—Shews the total amount of the debt created by supplementary loans, and of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction in each year —3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 75.
G. 3.—Shews the total amount, of the debt created by supplementary loans, and of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction in each year.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
G. 4.—Shews at one view the different results of tables G.—G. 2.—and G. 3.
PRESENT DEBT.
H.—Shews the total amount of the present debt, and of the present sinking fund, as it will stand in each year, after deducting from the latter the portions of the excesses above the interest of the debt, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents. at 60.
H. 2.—Shews the total amount of the present debt, and of the present sinking fund, as it will stand in each year, after deducting from the latter the portions of the excesses above the interest of the debt, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents, at various prices, from 60 to 75.
H. 3.—Shews the total amount of the present debt, and of the present sinking fund, as it will stand in each year, after deducting from the latter the portions of the excesses above the interest of the debt, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
H. 4.—Shews at one view the different results of tables H.—H. 2.—and H. 3.
ALL THE DEBTS COMBINED.
I.—Shews the combined amount of the war debt (table F.)#x2014;the supplementary debt (table G.)—and the present debt (table H.) and of their respective sinking funds in each year.—3 per cents. at 60.
I. 2.—Shews the combined amount of the war debt (table F. 2.)—the supplementary debt (table G. 2.)—and the present debt (table H. 2.)—and of their respective sinking funds in each year.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 75.
I. 3.—Shews the combined amount of the war debt (table F. 3.)—the supplementary debt (table G. 3.)—and the present debt
vi
I. 4.—Shews at one view the different results of tables I.—I. 2.—and I. 3.
VII.—TABLES SHEWING THE COMPARATIVE AMOUNTS OF NEW TAXES TO BE IMPOSED ACCORDING TO THE PRESENT SYSTEM, AND ACCORDING TO THE PROPOSED PLAN.
K.—Shews the comparative amount of new taxes which would be required annually if the services of each year were provided for according to the present system and according to the proposed plan respectively.—3 per cents. at 60.
K. 2.—Shews the comparative amount of new taxes which would be required annually i the services of each year were provided for according to the present system and the proposed plan respectively.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 75.
K. 3.—Shews the comparative amount of new taxes which would be required annually if the services of each year were provided for according to the present system and according to the proposed plan respectively.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
K. 4.—Shews at one view the different results of tables K.—K. 2.—and K. 3.
L.—Shews the comparative total amount in any given years, of new taxes which would have been imposed if the service of such year were provided for according to the present system, and according to the proposed plan respectively.—3 per cents. at 60.
L. 2.—Shews the comparative total amounts, in any given year, of new taxes which would have been imposed if the service of each year were provided for according to the present system, and according to the proposed plan respectively.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 75.
L. 3.—Shews the comparative total amounts, in any given year, of the new taxes, which would have been imposed if the service of each year was provided for according to the present system and according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
L. 4.—Shews at one view the different results of tables L.—L. 2.—and L. 3.
VIII.—MISCALLANEOUS TABLES RESPECTING THE REDEMPTION OF THE PUBLIC Debts.
M.—Shews the actual operation of the various sinking funds which have been applied to the extinction of debt since 1786.
N.—Shews what would be the amount
vii
N. 2.—Shews what would be the amonnt of the whole debt, and the amount of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction, in any year for 20 years, if 11 millions were borrowed for the service of each year, according to the present system, and the proportion per cent. which the sinking fund would on that supposition bear to the debt in each year. Also, what would be the amount of the whole debt, and the amount of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction, in the same years, according to the proposed plan, and the proportion per cent. which that sinking fund would bear to the debt in each year.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 75.
N. 3.—Shews what would be the amount of the whole debt, and the amount of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction, in any year of 20 years, if 11 millions were borrowed for the service of each year, according to the present system; and the proportion per cent. which the sinking fund would on that supposition bear to the debt in each year. Also, what would be the amount of the whole debt, and the amount of the sinking fund applicable to its extinction, in the same years, according to the proposed plan; and the proportion per cent. which that sinking fund would bear to the debt in each year.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
N. 4.—Shews at one view the results of Tables N.—N. 2.—and N. 3.
O.—Shews the total amount of the money capital of debt which would have been redeemed at any given periods of the continuance of war, for 20 years, if 11 millions were borrowed annually, according to the present system; also, the total amount of money capital of debt which will have been redeemed at the corresponding periods, according to the proposed plan.— 3 per cents. at 60.
O. 2.—Shews the total amount of the money capital of debt which would have been redeemed at any given periods of the
viii
O. 3.—Shews the total amount of the money capital of debt which would have been redeemed at any given periods of the continuance of war, for 20 years, if 11 millions were borrowed annually, according to the present system; also, the total amount of money capital of debt which will have been redeemed at the corresponding periods, according to the proposed plan.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
O. 4.—Shews at one view the different results of tables O.—O. 2.—and O 3.
P.—Shews the periods at which an amount equal to all future loans to be raised according to the proposed plan, would be redeemed, on various suppositions of the prices of the 3 per cents. stocks, and according to two different modes of application of the sinking fund at the end of those 20 years.
IX.—TABLES RESPECTING THE PERIODS AT WHICH THE WAR TAXES WOULD BE RELEASED, ON DIFFERENT SUPPOSITIONS.
WAR TAXES.
Q.—Shews the amount of war taxes which may be released at the end of any given year after 1815 (supposing peace to take place in any such year) by the application of the excesses of the present sinking fund alone, added to what will fall in by the operation of the revolving series of 14 years.—3 per cents. at 60.
Q. 2.—Shews the amount of war taxes which may be released at the end of any given year after 1815 (supposing peace to take place in any such year) by the application of the excesses of the present sinking fund alone, added to what will fall in by the operation of the revolving series of 14 years.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 75.
Q. 3.—Shews the amount of war taxes which may be released at the end of any given year after 1815 (supposing peace to take place in any such year) by the application of the excesses of the present sinking fund alone, added to what will fall in by the operation of the revolving series of 14 years.—3 per cents. at various prices, from 60 to 100.
Q. 4.—Shews at one view the different results of tables Q.—Q. 2.—and Q. 3.
ix
PROPERTY TAX.
R.—Shews the amount of the war taxes which would be released at the end of any given year, when peace might take place, if the principle of rendering disposable the excess of the sinking fund above the interest of the debt were applied on the return of peace to the debt charged on the war taxes, as well as to the present debt. And in that event shewing how much the property tax would remain pledged at the end of any given year, supposing the other war taxes, exclusive of the property tax, to produce 9,500,000
l
l
l
R. 2.—Shews the amount of the war taxes which would be released at the end of any given year when peace might take place, if the principle of rendering disposable the excess of the sinking fund above the interest of the debt were applied on the return of peace to the debt charged on the war taxes as well as to the present debt. And in that event shewing how much of the property tax would remain pledged at the end of any given year, supposing the other war taxes exclusive of the property tax, to product 9,500,000
l
l
x
l
R. 3.—Shews the amount of the war taxes which would be redeemed at the end of any given year when peace might take place, if the principle of rendering disposeable the excess of the sinking fund above the interest of the debt were applied on the return of peace to the debt charged on the war taxes as well as to the present debt. And in that event, shewing how much of the property tax would remain pledged at the end of any given year, supposing the other war taxes, exclusive of the property tax, to produce 9,500,000
l
l
l
R. 4.—Shews at one view the different results of tables R.—R. 2.—and R. 3.
INCOME TAX of 1798.
S.—Shews the amount of debt for which the income tax stood pledged at the time of its Repeal in 1802, and the periods in which that part of the income tax which was applicable to the extinction of the said debt would on the return of peace have extinguished the same; at various prices of stock, viz. at 60, 75, and at par.
TABLE A.
Shewing, The Amount of the LOANS which would be charged in each successive Year upon the WAR TAXES; and the Amount of the WAR TAXES pledged in each successive Year, to provide for the Interest and Sinking Funds of such LOANS.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR, Commencing
LOAN in each year upon the Credit of the present War Taxes.
WAR TAXES pledged in each Year to provide for the Interest and Sinking Fund of Loan.
Total of War Taxes pledged.
£·
£·
£·
5 January, 1807
12,000,000
1,200,000
1,200,000
5 January, 1808
12,000,000
1,200,000
2,400,000
5 January, 1809
12,000,000
1,200,000
3,600,000
5 January, 1810
14,000,000
1,400,000
5,000,000
5 January, 1811
16,000,000
1,600,000
6,600,000
5 January, 1812
16,000,000
1,600,000
8,200,000
5 January, 1813
16,000,000
1,600,000
*a 9,800,000
5 January, 1814
16,000,000
1,600,000
11,400,000
5 January, 1815
16,000,000
1,600,000
13,000,000
5 January, 1816
16,000,000
1,600,000
14,600,000
5 January, 1817
16,000,000
1,600,000
16,200,000
5 January, 1818
16,000,000
1,600,000
17,800,000
5 January, 1819
16,000,000
1,600,000
19,400,000
5 January, 1820
16,000,000
1,600,000
21,000,000
5 January, 1821
12,000,000
*b 1,200,000
21,000,000
5 January, 1822
12,000,000
1,200,000
21,000,000
5 January, 1823
12,000,000
1,200,000
21,000,000
5 January, 1824
14,000,000
1,400,400
21,000,000
5 January, 1825
16,000,000
1,600,000
21,000,000
5 January, 1826
16,000,000
1,600,000
21,000,000
*a From this Table it appears, that, supposing peace to take place at the end of 7 years from this time, no more than 9,800,000
l
*b This sum is the portion of war taxes which had been appropriated to the loan of the first year, and which being set free in 1821 by the redemption of a sum equal to that loan, will then become applicable to the charge of a fresh loan to the like amount. The like observation applies to all the succeeding sums in this column.
TABLE A. 2.
Shewing the Effect of the Operation of a SINKING FUND at Six per Cent. in the Redemption of a Debt of Twelve Millions of Money Capital, (which is the Amount of the first Year's War-Loan, according to the proposed Plan.—The Prices of 3 per Cents. are supposed to be at 75, and consequently the Interest of Money 4 per Cent.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR.
Amount of Money Capital of Debt at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount of Sinking Fund at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount of Money Capital of Debt at the Close of each Year.
£·
£·
£·
1807
12,000,000
720,000
11,280,000
1808
11,280,000
748,800
10,531,200
1809
10,531,200
778,752
9,752,448
1810
9,752,448
809,902
8,942,546
1811
8,942,546
842,298
8,100,248
1812
8,100,248
875,989
7,224,259
1813
7,224,259
911,028
6,313,231
1814
6,313,231
947,469
5,365,762
1815
5,365,762
985,367
4,380,395
1816
4,380,395
1,024,781
3,355,614
1817
3,355,614
1,065,772
2,289,842
1818
2,289,842
1,108,402
1,181,440
1819
1,181,440
1,152,738*
28,702*
* The sinking fund in this table is supposed to operate by compound interest at the yearly rate of 4 per cent. But as the sinking fund would be applied quarterly, the capital of debt redeemed, and the progressive amounts of the sinking fund would be greater than the computations in this table represent them; the result of this mode of computation will, however, sufficiently shew that a 6 per cent. sinking fund operating by compound interest at 4 per cent. would redeem its capital in 13 years.
TABLE A. 3.
Shewing the Effect of the Operation of a SINKING FUND of 7 per Cent. in the Redemption of a Debt of Twelve Millions of Money Capital, (which is the Amount of the first Year's War Loan, according to the proposed Plan). The Price of 3 per Cents. is supposed to be at Par, and consequently the Interest Money 3 per Cent.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR.
Amount of Money Capital of Debt, at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount of Sinking Fund at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount of Money Capital of Debt at the close of each Year.
£.
£.
£·
1807
12,000,000
840,000
11,160,000
1808
11,160,000
865,200
10,294,800
1809
10,294,800
891,156
9,403,644
1810
9,403,644
917,890
8,485,754
1811
8,485,754
945,426
7,540,328
1812
7,540,328
973,788
6,566,540
1813
6,566,540
1,003,001
5,563,539
1814
5,563,539
1,033,091
4,530,448
1815
4,530,448
1,064,083
3,466,365
1816
3,466,365
1,096,005
2,370,360
1817
2,370,360
1,128,885
1,241,475
1818
1,241,475
1,162,751
78,724*
* The sinking fund in this table is supposed to operate by compound interest, at the yearly rate of 3 per cent. But as the sinking fund would be applied quarterly, the capital of debt redeemed, and the progressive amounts of the sinking fund, would be greater than the computations in this table represent them; the result of this mode of computation will, however, sufficiently shew, that a 7 per cent. sinking fund, operating by compound interest at 3 per cent., would redeem its capital in about 12 years.
TABLE B. 2.
Shewing the Means by which an Annual extraordinary Expenditure, to the Amount of
£
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR, Commencing
LOAN in each Year, upon the Credit of War Taxes.
WAR TAXES not pledged, but remaining applicable to the Service of the Year.*
Supplementary Loans required for the Service of the Year.
TOTAL Provided for in each Year.
5 January, 1807
12,000,000
19,800,000
200,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1808
12,000,000
18,600,000
14000,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1809
12,000,000
17,400,000
2,600,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1810
14,000,000
16,000,000
2,000,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1811
16,000,000
14,400,000
1,600,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1812
16,000,000
12,800,000
3,200,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1813
16,000,000
11,200,000
4,800,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1814
16,000,000
9,600,000
6,400,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1815
16,000,000
8,000,000
8,000,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1816
16,000,000
6,400,000
9,600,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1817
16,000,000
4,800,000
11,200,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1818
16,000,000
3,200,000
12,800,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1819
16,000,000
1,600,000
14,400,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1820
16,000,000
Nil.
16,000,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1821
12,000,000
Nil.
20,000,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1822
12,000,000
Nil.
20,000,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1823
12,000,000
Nil.
20,000,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1824
14,000,000
Nil.
18,000,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1825
16,000,000
Nil.
16,000,000
32,000,000
5 January, 1826
16,000,000
Nil.
16,000,000
32,000,000
* Note.—For the amount of war-taxes pledged in each year, to provide for interest and sinking fund of the loans charged upon those taxes;—See Table A, column 4.
TABLE B.
Shewing the Total Amount of the Loan in any given Year, according to the proposed Plan; and the Amount of the total Sinking Fund in the same Year; also the Difference between the Total Amount of the Loan, and the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund in each Year. The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR, Commencing
Amount of the Loan charged on the War Taxes in each Year.
Amount of the Supplementary Loan in each Year
TOTAL Amount of the Loan in each Year.
TOTAL Amount of the Sinking Fund in each Year.
Difference between the Total Amount of the Loan, and the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund in each Year.
£.
£
£
£
£
5 January, 1807
12,000,000
200,000
12,200,000
8,935,042
3,264,958
5 January, 1808
12,000,000
1,400,000
13,400,000
10,005,126
3,394,874
5 January, 1809
12,000,000
2,600,000
14,600,000
11,148,714
3,451,286
5 January, 1810
14,000,000
2,000,000
16,000,000
12,439,482
3,560,518
5 January, 1811
16,000,000
1,600,000
17,600,000
13,888,120
3,711,880
5 January, 1812
16,000,000
3,200,000
19,200,000
15,435,858
3,764,142
5 January, 1813
16,000,000
4,800,000
20,800,000
17,087,649
3,712,351
5 January, 1814
16,000,000
6,400,000
22,400,000
18,848,697
3,551,303
5 January, 1815
16,000,000
8,000,000
24,000,000
20,724,463
3,275,537
5 January, 1816
16,000,000
9,600,000
25,600,000
22,720,685
2,879,315
5 January, 1817
16,000,000
11,200,000
27,200,000
24,096,718
3,103,282
5 January, 1818
16,000,000
12,800,000
28,800,000
25,461,552
3,338,448
5 January, 1819
16,000,000
14,400,000
30,400,000
26,814,628
3,585,372
5 January, 1820
16,000,000
16,000,000
32,000,000
28,155,358
3,844,642
5 January, 1821
12,000,000
20,000,000
32,000,000
27,963,124
4,036,876
5 January, 1822
12,000,000
20,000,000
32,000,000
27,761,279
4,238,721
5 January, 1823
12,000,000
20,000,000
32,000,000
27,549,341
4,450,659
5 January, 1824
14,000,000
18,000,000
32,000,000
27,326,807
4,673,193
5 January, 1825
16,000,000
16,000,000
32,000,000
27,093,146
4,906,854
5 January, 1826
16,000,000
16,000,000
32,000,000
26,901,360
5,098,640
* The sums in this column will of course shew how much will be borrowed in each year more than will be paid off in the same year.
TABLE B. 3.
Shewing the Total Amount of the MONEY CAPITAL OF DEBT created in each Year from 1793 to 1806, both inclusive, and the Amount of the corresponding Sinking Fund; also, the Difference between the Money Capital of Debt created, and the Amount of the corresponding Sinking Fund applied to the Extinction of Debt in each Year.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR.
Money Capital of Debt, created in each Year.
Amount of the Sinking Fund, applied in each Year.
Difference between the Amount of the Money Capital of Debt created, and the Amount of the Sinking Fund applied in each Year.
£·
£·
£·
1 Feb. 1793, to 1 Feb. 1794.
4,500,000
1,630,615
2,869,385
1794 to 1795
12,907,452
1,872,200
11,035,252
1795 to 1796
19,490,647
2,143,595
17,347,052
1796 to 1797
29,726,797
2,639,724
27,087,073
1797 to 1798
44,029,399
3,352,579
40,676,820
1798 to 1799
15,000,000
3,937,923
11,062,077
1799 to 1800
15,500,000
4,257,547
11,242,453
1800 to 1801
18,500,000
4,578,690
13,921,310
1801 to 1802
34,410,450
5,073,854
29,336,596
1802 to 1803
23,000,000
5,639,500
17,360,500
1803 to 1804
10,000,000
5,970,102
4,029,898
1804 to 1805
10,000,000
6,470,738
3,529,262
1805 to 1806
21,526,699
7,128,078
14,398,621
1806 to 1807
18,000,000
7,773,400
10,226,600
Total of column 4
£.
214,122,899
Average of these 14 years
15,294,492
Average of the first 14 years in Table B. 2.
3,459,850
Difference
11,834,649
TABLE B. 4.
Shewing, the Total Amount of the LOAN in any given Year, according to the proposed Plan, and the Amount of the corresponding Sinking Fund; also the Differences between the Total Amount of the Loan, and the Total Amount of the corresponding Sinking Fund in each Year.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807,) at 60; then to rise to 63. 16. and so to continue for 2 Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 66. 66. and so to continue for 2 Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 70. 58. and so to continue for 2 Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to 75, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of the Loan charged on the War Taxes in each Year.
Amount of the Supplementary Loan in each Year.
Total Amount of the Loan in each Year.
Total Amount of the Sinking Fund in each Year.
Difference between the Total Amount of the Loan and the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund in each Year.*
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
12,000,000
200,000
12,200,000
8,935,042
3,264,958
1808
12,000,000
1,400,000
13,400,000
10,033,958
3,366,042
1809
12,000,000
2,600,000
14,600,000
11,181,735
3,418,265
1810
14,000,000
2,000,000
16,000,000
12,512,869
3,487,131
1811
16,000,000
1,600,000
17,600,000
13,979,949
3,620,051
1812
16,000,000
3,200,000
19,200,000
15,574,383
3,625,617
1813
16,000,000
4,800,000
20,800,000
17,224,300
3,575,700
1814
16,000,000
6,400,000
22,400,000
19,001,664
3,893,336
1815
16,000,000
8,000,000
24,000,000
20,828,395
3,171,605
1816
16,000,000
9,600,000
25,600,000
22,749,529
2,850,471
1817
16,000,000
11,200,000
27,200,000
24,629,857
2,570,143
1818
16,000,000
12,300,000
28,800,000
26,063,050
2,736,950
1819
16,000,000
14,400,000
30,400,000
27,489,570
2,910,430
1820
16,000,000
16,000,000
32,000,000
28,909,151
†3,090,849
1821
12,000,000
20,000,000
32,000,000
28,785,516
3,214,484
1822
12,000,000
20,000,000
32,000,000
28,656,935
3,343,065
1823
12,000,000
20,000,000
32,000,000
28,523,211
3,476,789
1824
14,000,000
18,000,000
32,000,000
28,384,137
3,615,863
1825
16,000,000
16,000,000
32,000,000
28,301,177
3,698,823
1826
16,000,000
16,000,000
32,000,000
28,282,707
3,717,293
* The sums in this column will of course show how much would be borrowed in each year, more than would be paid off.
† The average of the 14 years in Table B. 3. is
£
The average of the first 14 years of this Table is
3,220,467
Difference
£
TABLE B. 5.
Shewing the Total Amount of the LOAN in any given Year, according to the proposed Plan, and the Amount of the corresponding Sinking Fund; also, the Differences between the Total Amount of the Loan, and the Total Amount of the corresponding Sinking Fund in each Year. The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807,) at 60; then to rise to 63.66. and so to continue for 2 Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 75. and so to continue for 2 Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 85. 71. and so to continue for 2 Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR
Amount of the Loan charged on the War Taxes in each Year.
Amount of the Supplementary Loan in each Year.
Total Amount of the Loan in each Year
Total Amount of the Sinking Fund in each Year.
Difference between the Total Amount of the Loan and the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund, in each Year.*
£
£
£
£
£
1807
12,000,000
200,000
12,200,000
8,935,042
3,264,958
1808
12,000,000
1,400,000
13,400,000
10,063,795
3,336,205
1809
12,000,000
2,600,000
14,600,000
11,314,623
3,285,377
1810
14,000,000
2,000,000
16,000,000
12,690,446
3,309,554
1811
16,000,000
1,600,000
17,600,000
14,179,396
3,420,604
1812
16,000,000
3,200,000
19,200,000
15,823,905
3,376,095
1813
16,000,000
4,800,000
20,800,000
17,472,742
3,327,258
1814
16,000,000
6,400,000
22,400,000
19,268,286
3,131,714
1815
16,000,000
8,000,000
24,000,000
21,046,334
2,953,666
1816
16,000,000
9,600,000
25,600,000
22,893,723
2,706,277
1817
16,000,000
11,200,000
27,200,000
24,812,533
2,387,467
1818
16,000,000
12,800 000
28,800,000
26,292,908
2,507,092
1819
16,000,000
14,400,000
30,400,000
27,769,694
2,630,306
1820
16,000,000
16,000,000
32,000,000
29,242,784
† 2,757,216
1821
12,000,000
20,000,000
32,000,000
29,160,066
2,839,934
1822
12,000,000
20,000,000
32,000,000
29,074,866
2,925,134
1823
12,000,000
20,000,000
32,000,000
29,128,504
2,871,496
1824
14,000,000
18,000,000
32,000,000
29,142,690
2,857,310
1825
16,000,000
16,000,000
32,000,000
29,095,890
2,904,110
1826
16,000,000
16,000,000
32,000,000
29,065,719
2,934,281
* The sums in this column will of course shew how much would be borrowed in each year, more than would be paid off.
† The average of the 14 years in Table B. 3. is
£
The average of the first 14 years of this Table is
3,028,127
Difference
£
TABLE B. 6.
Shewing at one view the different RESULTS of the three Tables, B.2. B. 4. & B 5.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table B. 2.
The 3 per cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table B. 4.
The 3 per cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63. 16. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 70.58. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to 75. and to continue at that price throughout the rest of the period of 20 years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table B. 5.
The 3 per cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 66.66. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 75. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 85.71. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to par, and to continue at that price throughout the rest of the period of 20 years.
YEAR.
1st SUPPOSITION.
2d SUPPOSITION.
3d SUPPOSITION.
Difference between the Total Amount of the Loan, and the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund in each Year.
Difference between the Total Amount of the Loan, and the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund in each Year.
Difference between the Total Amount of the Loan, and the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund in each Year.
£.
£.
£.
1807
3,264,958
3,264,958
3,264,958
1808
3,394,874
3,366,042
3,336,205
1809
3,451,286
3,418,265
3,285,377
1810
3,560,518
3,487,131
3,309,554
1811
3,711,880
3,620,051
3,420,604
1812
3,764,142
3,625,617
3,376,095
1813
3,712,351
3,575,700
3,327,258
1814
3,551,303
3,398,336
3,131,714
1815
3,275,537
3,171,605
2,953,666
1816
2,879,315
2,850,471
2,706,277
1817
3,103,282
2,570,143
2,387,467
1818
3,338,448
2,736,950
2,507,092
1819
3,585,372
2,910,430
2,630,306
1820
3,844,642
3,090,849
2,757,216
1821
4,036,876
3,214,484
2,839,934
1822
4,238,721
3,343,065
2,925,134
1823
4,450,659
3,476,789
2,871,496
1824
4,673,193
3,615,863
2,857,310
1825
4,906,854
3,698,823
2,904,110
1826
5,098,640
3,717,293
2,934,281
TABLE C.
Shewing the Amount of the Supplementary Loans required in each Year, of two successive Series of ten Years each, commencing with 1807.—Also the Amount of the Interest, and Sinking Fund of 1/60th (or One per Cent. upon the nominal Capital created) to be provided for on account of those Loans.—Also the Effect of the Application of the Expiring, Annuities to that Purpose during the first Series, on an Average of Seven Years;*—and the Effect of the Application to the same Purpose, both of the Expiring Annuities, and of the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund (according to the Plan now proposed) during the second Series, supposing the 3 per Cents. at 60.
1.
2.
3.
4.
YEAR, Commencing
Amount of Supplementary Loans required in each Year.
Amount of Interest and Sinking Fund to be provided for in each Year, on account of the Supplementary Loans.†
New Taxes to be imposed in each Year, on an average of 7 Years from 1810, for Interest and Sinking Fund of Supplementary Loans, if the Expiring Annuities be taken in aid of the first 3 Years from 1807, and if both expiring Annuities and the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund be applied in like manner to the 2d Series.
5 January 1807
200,000
13,333
Nil.
5 January 1808
1,400,000
93,333
Nil.
5 January 1809
2,600,000
173,333
Nil.
5 January 1810
2,000,000
133,333
Aver. of last 7 Years, 1st Series.
293,000
5 January 1811
1,600,000
106,666
293,000
5 January 1812
3,200,000
213,333
293,000
5 January 1813
4,800,000
320,000
293,000
5 January 1814
6,400,000
426,666
293,000
5 January 1815
8,000,000
533,333
293,000
5 January 1816
9,600,000
640,000
293,000
5 January 1817
11,200,000
746,666
10 Years, 2nd Series.
Nil.
5 January 1818
12,800,000
853,333
Nil.
5 January 1819
14,400,000
960,000
Nil.
5 January 1820
16,000,000
1,066,666
Nil.
5 January 1821
20,000,000
1,333,333
Nil.
5 January 1822
20,000,000
1,333,333
Nil.
5 January 1823
20,000,000
1,333,333
Nil.
5 January 1824
18,000,000
1,200,000
Nil.
5 January 1825
16,000,000
1,066,666
Nil.
5 January 1826
16,000,000
1,066,666
Nil.
* Note.—The annuities taken into these calculations as expiring within these two successive series of ten years, are as follows, viz. 15,51.5
l.
l.
l
l.
† Note.—It will be obvious that this 3d Column will shew the amount of new taxes which must be annually imposed according to the present plan, supposing no aid were derived to it from the expiring annuities, or from the excesses of the sinking fund.— A succeeding Table will shew the much larger amount of taxes which must be annually imposed, if the services of these years were provided for in the ordinary mode.
TABLE C. 2.
Shewing the Amount of the SUPPLEMENTARY LOANS required in each Year of two successive Series, commencing with 1807; and also the Amount of the Interest and Sinking Fund of 1 per Cent. upon the Nominal Capital to be provided for on account of those Loans. Also the Effect of the Application to that Purpose of the Expiring Annuities, and of a Sum arising from the Reduction of the 5 per Cent. to a 4 per Cent. Fund, during the first Series, on an Average of 7 Years; and the Effect of the Application to the same Purpose, both of the Expiring Annuities and of the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund (according to the Plan now proposed) during the second Series.— The Prices of 3 per Cents. supposed to vary in the manner stated in Col. 2. of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4.‡
5.
YEAR.
Price of 3 per Cent. Stock.
Corresponding Rate of Interest of Money.
Amount of Supplementary Loans required in each Year.
Amount of Interest and Sinking Fund to be provided for in each Year, on account of the Supplementary Loans.
New Taxes to be imposed in each Year on an Average of Seven Year from 1810, for Interest and Sinking Fund of Supplementary Loans, if the Expired Annuities, and a Sum arising from the Reduction of the 5 per Cents. to a 4 per Cent. Fund †, be taken in Aid of the first Series, and if both the expired Annuities and the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund, be applied in like manner in Aid of the Second Series.
1807
60 =5
200,000
First Series 10 Years.‡
13,333
Average of last 7 Years of 1st Series.
Nil.
1808
63·16=4¾
1,400,000
88,665
Nil.
1809
2,600,000
164,665
Nil.
1810
66·66=4½
2,000,000
120,003
230,000
1811
1,600,000
96,002
230,000
1812
70·58=4½
3,200,000
181,338
230,000
1813
4,800,000
272,007
230,000
1814
75 =4
6,400,000
341,333
230,000
1815
8,000,000
426,666
230,000
1816
9,600,000
512,000
230,000
1817
11,200,000
Second Series 10 Years.
397,333
10 Years Second series.
Nil.
1818
12,800,000
682,666
Nil.
1819
14,400,000
768,000
Nil.
1820
16,000,000
853,333
Nil.
1821
20,000,000
1,066,666
Nil.
1822
20,000,000
1,066,666
Nil.
1823
20,000,000
1,066,666
Nil.
1824
18,000,000
960,000
Nil.
1825
16,000,000
853,333
Nil.
1826
16,000,000
853,333
Nil.
* Note.—The amount of this sum is 480,529
l.
† Note.—It will be obvious that this 4th column will shew the amount of new taxes which must be annually imposed according to the present plan, supposing no aid were derived to it from the expiring annuities, or from the excesses of the sinking fund.—A succeeding table will shew the much larger amount of taxes which must be annually imposed, if the services of these years were provided for in the ordinary mode.
‡ Note.—The ANNUITIES taken into these calculations as expiring within these two successive series of ten years, are as follows, viz. 15,515
l.
l.
l.
l.
xxxiii-xxxiv
TABLE C. 3.
Shewing the Amount of the SUPPLEMENTARY LOANS required in each Year, of two successive Series of Ten Years each, commencing with 1807; and also the Amount of the Interest and Sinking Fund of 1 per Cent. upon the nominal Capital to be provided for on account of those Loans.—Also the Effect of the Application to that purpose of the Expiring Annuities, and of a Sum arising from the Reduction of the 5 per Cents. in the first Instance to a 4 per Cent. and afterwards to a three per Cent. Fund, and from the reduction of the 4 per Cents. to a three per Cent. Fund, during the first Series; and the Effect of the Application to the same Purpose, both of the Expiring Annuities* and of the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund (according to the Plan now proposed) during the second Series.—The Prices of 3. per Cents. supposed to vary in _he manner stated in Col. 2. of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4. †
5.
YEAR.
Prince of 3 per Cent. Stock.
Corresponding Rate of Interest of Money.
Amount of Supplementary Loans required in each Year.
Amount of Interest and Sinking Fund to be provided for in each Year, on account of the Supplementary Loans.
New Taxes to be imposed for Interest and Sinking Fund of Supplementary Loans, if the Expired Annuities, and a Sum arising from the Reduction of the 5 per Cents. and 4 per Cents. to a 3 per Cent. Fund ‡, be taken in Aid of the first Series, and if both the expired Annuities and the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund, be applied in like manner in Aid of the Second Series.
1807
60 =5
200,000
First Series of 10 Years.
13,333
1st Series of 10 Years.
Nil.
1808
66·66=4½
1,400,000
84,00 1/0
Nil.
1809
2,600,000
156,00 2/0
Nil.
1810
75 =4
2,000,000
106,666
Nil.
1811
1,600,000
85,333
Nil.
1812
85·71=3½
3,200,000
149,33 3/3
Nil.
1813
4,800,000
224,00 4/0
Nil.
1814
Par =3
6,400,000
256,000
Nil.
1815
The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at Par throughout the rest of this period of 20 Years.
8,000,000
320,000
Nil.
1816
9,600,000
384,000
Nil.
1817
11,200,000
Second Series of 10 Years.
448,000
Second Series of 10 Years.
§275,836
1818
12,800,000
512,000
Nil.
1819
14,400,000
576,000
Nil.
1820
16,000.000
640,000
Nil.
1821
20,000,000
800,000
Nil.
1822
20,000,000
800,000
Nil.
1823
20,000,000
800,000
Nil.
1824
18,000,000
720,000
Nil.
1825
16,000,000
640,000
Nil.
1826
16,000,00
640,000
Nil.
* Note.—The annuities taken into these calculations as expiring within these two successive series of ten years, are as follows, viz. 15,515
l.
l.
l.
l.
† Note.—It will be obvious that this 4th column will shew the amount of new taxes which must be annually imposed according to the present plan, supposing no aid were derived to it from the expiring annuities, or from the excesses of the sinking fund.— A succeeding Table will shew the much larger amount of taxes which must be annually imposed, if the services of these years were provided for in the ordinary mode.
‡ Note.—The amount of the sum is 1,429,134
l.
§ Note.—The only Taxes required throughout the whole of these two series of 10 years each, will be in the first year of the second series, (viz. 1817) to the amount above stated.
xxxv-xxxvi
TABLE C. 4.
Shewing at one view the different RESULTS of the three Tables, C, C.2, & C.3.
1st Supposition—Table C.
The 3 per cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table C. 2.
The 3 per cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63.16. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 70.58. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1812 and 1813): and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to 75. and to continue at that price throughout the rest of the period of 20 years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table C. 3.
The 3 per cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 66.66. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 75. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 85.71. and so to continue for two years (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to par, and to continue at that price throughout the rest of the period of 20 years.
1826
1825
1824
1823
1822
1821
1820
1819
1818
1817
1816
1815
1814
1813
1812
1811
1810
1809
1808
1807
YEAR
1,066,666
1,066,666
1,200,000
1,333,333
1,333,333
1,333,333
1,066,666
960,000
853,333
746,666
640,000
853,333
426,666
320,000
213,333
106,666
133,333
173,333
93,333
13,333
£.
Amount of Interest and Sinking Fund to be provided for in each Year on account of the Supplementary Loans.
1st SUPPOSITION.
10 Years, 2d Series.
Aver. of last 7
New Taxes to be imposed in each Year, on an Average of 7 Years, from 1810, for Interest and Sinking Fund of Supplementary Loans, if the expiring Annuities be taken in Aid of the First 3 Years from 1807, and if both the Expiring Annuities and the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund be applied in like manner to the Second Series.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
293,000
293,000
293,000
293,000
293,000
293,000
293,000
293,000
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
£.
Second Series 10 Years.
First Series 10 Years.
Amount of Interest and Sinking Fund to be provided for in each year, on account of the Supplementary Loans.
2nd SUPPOSITION.
853,000
853,000
960,000
1,066,666
1,066,666
1,066,666
853,333
768,000
682,666
597,333
512,000
426,666
341,333
272,007
181,338
96,002
120,003
164,665
88,665
13,333
£.
10 Years Second
Average of last 7
New Taxes to be imposed in each Year on an Average of Seven Years, from 1810, for Interest and Sinking Fund of Supplementary Loans, if the Expired Annuities and a Sum arising from the Reduction of the 5 per Cents. to a 4 per Cent. Fund be taken in Aid of the First Series, and if both the Expired Annuities and the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund be applied in like manner in Aid of the Second Series.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
236,000
230,000
230,000
230,000
230,000
230,000
230,000
230,000
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
£.
Second Series of 10 Yrs.
First Series of 10 Years.
Amount of Interest and Sinking Fund to be provided for in each Year on account of the Supplementary Loans.
3rd SUPPOSITION.
640,000
640,000
720,000
800,000
800,000
800,000
640,000
576,000
512,000
418,000
384,000
320,000
256,000
224,000
149,333
85,333
106,666
156,000
84,000
13,333
£.
Second Series of 10 Yrs.
Sec. Series of 10 Yrs.
New Taxes to be imposed for interest and Sinking Fund of Supplementary Loans, if the Expired Annuities, and a Sum arising from the Reduction of the 5 per Cents. and 4 per Cents. to a 3 per Cent. Fund be taken in aid of the First Series, and if both the expired Annuities and the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund be applied in like manner in Aid of the Second Series.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
275,836
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
Nil.
£.
TABLE D.
Shewing the Amount of such PROPORTIONS of the EXCESSES of the present Sinking Fund above the Amount of Interest on Debt Unredeemed, as, from the Commencement of the Year 1817, will be applied in the Reduction of the Amount of New Taxes, which would otherwise be required for Interest and Sinking Funds of Supplementary Loans. The Three per Cents. supposed to continue at Sixty.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR Commencing
Amount of the Present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount in the each Year of the present Sinking Fund, deducting only such Portions of the Excesses above the Interest as will be required in Aid of New Taxes.
The Same Debt at the Close of each Year.
Amount of the Excesses which will thus be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
5 January, 1816
260,923,615
12,925,211
247,998,404
746,666
5 January, 1817
247,998,404
12,824,805
235,173,599
853,333
5 January, 1818
235,173,599
12,612,712
222,560,887
960,000
5 January, 1819
222,560,887
12,283,347
210,277,540
1,066,666
5 January, 1820
210,277,540
11,830,848
198,446,692
1,333,333
5 January, 1821
198,446,692
11,089,057
187,357,635
1,333,333
5 January, 1822
187,357,635
10,310,176
177,047,459
1,333,333
5 January, 1823
177,047,459
9,492,351
167,555,108
1,200,000
5 January, 1824
167,555,108
8,766,968
158,788,140
1,066,666
5 January, 1825
158,788,140
8,138,650
150,649,490
1,013,108
5 January, 1826
150,649,490
7,532,474
143,117,016
753,247
TABLE D. 2.
Shewing the Amount of such PORTIONS of the EXCESSES of the present Sinking Fund, above the Amount of Interest on Debt Unredeemed, as, from the Commencement of the Year 1817, will be applied in the Reduction of the Amount of New Taxes, which would otherwise be required for Interest and Sinking Funds of Supplementary Loans, supposing the Continuance of the War.
Three per Cent. Stocks are supposed to be at 75=Interest at 4 per Cent. throughout the whole of this Calculation.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of Money Capital of the Present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount in the each Year of the present Sinking Fund, deducting only such Portions of the Excesses above the Interest as will be required in Aid of New Taxes.
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
Amount of the Excesses which will be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
£·
£·
£·
£·
1816
* 329,220,503
12,322,041
316,898,462
138,934
1817
316,898,462
12,675,938
304,222,524
682,636
1818
304,222,524
12,500,309
291,722,215
768,000
1819
291,722,215
12,232,321
279,489,894
853,333
1820
279,489,894
11,868,280
267,621,614
1,066,666
1821
267,621,614
11,276,345
256,343,269
1,066,666
1822
256,345,269
10,660,732
245,684,537
1,066,666
1823
245,684,537
10,020,495
235,664,042
960,000
1824
235,664,042
9,461,314
226,202,728
791,657
1825
226,202,728
9,048,109
217,154,619
723,849
1826
7,154,619
8,686,184
208,468,435
694,894
* As the 3 per cents, are supposed in this Table to be at 75, the amount of the money capital of the unredeemed debt, at this period, is of course stated proportionably higher than in Table D. where the 3 per cents. are supposed to be only at 60.
TABLE D. 3.
Shewing the Amount of such PORTIONS of the EXCESSES of the present Sinking Fund, above the Amount of Interest on Debt Unredeemed, as, from the Commencement of the Year 1818, will be applied in the Reduction of the Amount of New Taxes, which would otherwise be required for Interest and Sinking Funds of Supplementary Loans, supposing the Continuance of the War.
Three per Cent. Stocks are supposed to be at Par=Interest at 3 per Cent. throughout the whole of this Calculation.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of Money Capital of the Present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount in the each Year of the present Sinking Fund, deducting only such Portions of the Excesses above the Interest as will be required in Aid of New Taxes.
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
Amount of the Excesses which will be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1817
* 413,823,358
12,227,554
401,595,804
512,000
1818
401,595,804
12,082,380
389,513,424
576,000
1819
389,513,424
11,868,851
377,644,573
640,000
1820
377,644,573
11,584,916
366,059,657
800,000
1821
366,059,657
11,132,463
354,927,194
800,000
1822
354,927,194
10,666,436
344,260,758
658,607
1823
344,260,758
10,327,822
333,932,936
619,668
1824
333,932,936
10,017,988
323,914,948
601,079
1825
323,914,948
9,717,448
314,197,500
583,046
1826
314,197,500
9,425,925
304,771,575
565,555
* As the 3 per cents. are supposed in this Table to be at par; the amount of the money capital of the unredeemed debt, at this period, is of course stated proportionably higher than in Table D, where the 3 per cents. are supposed to be only at 60; or in Table D. 2, where the 3 per Cents. are supposed to be at 75.
TABLE D.4.
Shewing at one view the different RESULTS of the three Tables, D, D 2, and D3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table D.
The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table D. 2.
The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 75.
3d SUPPOSITION— Table D. 3.
The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at Par.
YEAR.
1st SUPPOSITION.
2d SUPPOSITION.
3d SUPPOSITION.
Amount of The Excesses which will be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
Amount of The Excesses which will be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
Amount of The Excesses which will be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
£.
£.
£.
1816
746,666
138,984
1817
853,333
682,666
512,000
1818
960,000
768,000
576,000
1819
1,066,666
853,333
640,000
1820
1,333,333
1,066,666
800,000
1821
1,333,333
1,066,666
800,000
1822
1,333,333
1,066,666
658,607
1823
1,200,000
960,000
619,668
1824
1,066,666
791,657
601,079
1825
1,013,108
723,849
583,046
1826
753,247
694,894
565,555
TABLE E.
Shewing the Total Amount of the EXCESSES of the present Sinking Fund in each after the Year Year 1816, above the Amount of Interest on the Unredeemed Debt, supposing the whole Excesses to be deducted as they arise*, instead of deducting only the Portions of those Excesses stated in Table D.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR, Commencing
Amount of the present Debt remaining Unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount in each Year of the present Sinking Fund, deducting as they arise,
the whole
The same Debt at the Close of each Year.
Amount of the Excesses which would on this Supposition, be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
£
£
£
£
5 January, 1816
260,923,615
12,925,211
247,998,404
1,171,551
5 January, 1817
247,998,404
12,399,920
235,598,484
1,239,992
5 January, 1818
235,598,484
11,779,924
223,818,560
1,177,992
5 January, 1819
223,818,560
11,190,928
212,627,632
1,119,093
5 January, 1820
212,627,632
10,631,381
201,996,251
1,063,138
5 January, 1821
201,996,251
10,099,812
191,896,439
1,009,981
5 January, 1822
191,896,439
9,594,821
182,301,618
959,482
5 January, 1823
182,301,618
9,115,080
173,186,538
911,508
5 January, 1824
173,186,538
8,659,326
164,527,212
865,932
5 January, 1825
164,527,212
8,226,360
156,300,852
822,636
5 January, 1826
156,300,852
7,815,042
148,485,810
781,504
*Note.—This, as well as the preceding Table D, is calculated on a supposition of Three per cents. remaining at 60, during the whole period of these ten years.
The effect of some other suppositions in this respect will appear in other Tables.
TABLE E. 2.
Shewing the Total Amount of the EXCESSES of the present Sinking Fund in each Year after the Year 1816, above the Amount of Interest on the Unredeemed Debt, if the whole Excesses were deducted as they arise, instead of deducting only the Portions of those Excesses stated in Table D 2.
Three Per Cent. Stocks are supposed to be at 75=Interest at Four per Cent. throughout the whole of this Calculation.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of Money Capital of the present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount in each Year of the present Sinking Fund, deducting as they arise the whole of the Excesses above the Interest of the Debt.
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
Amount of the Excesses which would on the above Supposition be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
£
£
£
£
1816
*329,220,503
12,322,041
316,898,462
138,984
1817
316,898,462
12,675,938
304,222,524
1,014,075
1818
304,222,524
12,168,900
292,053,624
973,512
1819
392,053,624
11,682,144
280,371,480
934,570
1820
280,371,480
11,214,859
269,156,621
897,189
1821
269,156,621
10,766,264
258,390,357
861,300
1822
258,390,357
10,335,614
248,054,743
826,849
1823
248,054,743
9,922,189
238,132,554
793,774
1824
238,132,554
9,525,302
228,607,252
762,024
1825
228,607,252
9,144,290
219,462,962
731,543
1826
219,462,962
8,778,518
210,684,444
702,281
* See Note to Table D. 2.
TABLE E. 3.
Shewing the Total Amount of the EXCESSES of the present Sinking Fund in each Year after the Year 1816, above the Amount of Interest on the Unredeemed Debt, if the whole Excesses were deducted as they arise, instead of deducting only the Portions of those Excesses stated in Table D. 3.
Three per Cent. Stocks are supposed to be at Par=Interest at 3 per Cent. throughout the whole of this Calculation.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of Money Capital of the present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount in each Year of the present Sinking Fund, deducting as they arise, the whole of the Excesses above the Interest of the Debt.
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
Amount of the Excesses which would, on the above Supposition, be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
£
£
£
£
1817
*413,823,358
12,227,554
401,595,804
546,506
1818
401,595,804
12,047,874
389,547,930
722,873
1819
389,547,930
11,686,437
377,861,493
701,186
1820
377,861,493
11,335,844
366,525,649
680,150
1821
366,525,649
10,995,769
355,529,880
659,746
1822
355,529,880
10,665,896
344,863,984
639,953
1823
344,863,984
10,345,919
334,518,065
620,755
1824
334,518,065
10,035,541
324,482,524
602,132
1825
324,482,524
9,734,475
314,748,049
584,068
1826
314,748,049
9,442,441
305,305,608
566,546
*See Note to Table D. 3.
TABLE E. 4.
Shewing, at one view the different RESULTS of the three Tables, E, E2, and E3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table E.
The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table E. 2.
The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 75.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table E. 3.
The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at Par.
YEAR.
1st SUPPOSITION
2nd SUPPOSITION
3d SUPPOSITION
Amount of The Excesses which would, on this Supposition, be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
Amount of The Excesses which would, on the above Supposition, be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
Amount of The Excesses which would, on the above Supposition, be deducted from the Sinking Fund in each Year.
£
£
£
1816
1,171,551
138,984
1817
1,239,992
1,014,075
546,506
1818
1,177,992
973,512
722,873
1819
1,119,093
934,570
701,186
1820
1,063,138
897,189
680,150
1821
1,009,981
861,300
659,746
1822
959,482
826,849
639,953
1823
911,508
793,774
620,755
1824
865,932
762,024
602,132
1825
822,636
731,543
584,068
1826
781,504
702,281
566,546
TABLE F.*
Shewing, the Total Amount of the DEBT charged on the War Taxes, as it will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year, if Peace were then made:—and also the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund applicable in any given Year to the Extinction of such Debt. The 3 per Cents. being supposed in this Table, as well as in the Tables G. H. and I. to continue at 60.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR, Commencing
Amount of the War Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the War Debt at the same Periods.
Amount of the same Debt, at the Close of each Year.
£
£
£
5 January 1807
12,000,000
600,000
11,400,000
5 January 1808
23,400,000
1,230,000
22,170,000
5 January 1809
34,170,000
1,891,500
32,278,500
5 January 1810
46,278,500
2,686,075
43,592,425
5 January 1811
59,592,425
3,620,378
55,972,047
5 January 1812
71,972,047
4,601,396
67,370,651
5 January 1813
83,370,651
5,631,465
77,739,186
5 January 1814
93,739,186
6,713,038
87,026,148
5 January 1815
103,026,148
7,848,689
95,177,459
5 January 1816
111,177,459
9,041,123
102,136,336
5 January 1817
118,136,336
10,293,179
107,843,157
5 January 1818
123,843,157
11,607,837
112,235,320
5 January 1819
128,235,320
12,988,228
115,247,092
5 January 1820
131,247,092
14,437,639
116,809,453
5 January 1821
128,809,453
14,559,520
114,249,933
5 January 1822
126,249,933
14,687,496
111,562,437
5 January 1823
123,562,437
14,821,870
108,740,567
5 January 1824
122,740,567
14,862,963
107,877,604
5 January 1825
123,877,604
14,806,111
109,071,493
5 January 1826
125,071,493
14,746,416
110,325,077
*Note.—In this Table, and in the succeeding Tables G. H. and I. the respective sinking funds for the reduction of the respective debts are supposed to operate by compound interest at the yearly rate of five per cent.: but the respective sinking funds are issued to the commissioners quarterly. For this reason, the capitals of debt redeemed, and the progressive amounts of the sinking funds, will be greater than the computations in this and the other Tables G. H. and I. represent them, though not in such a proportion as to make it necessary to embarrass the accounts by taking into consideration the several different rates of interest correspondent to the periodical issues of the sinking funds for the reduction of debt by quarterly payments.
TABLE F. 2.
Shewing, the Total Amount of DEBT charged on the War-Taxes, as it will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year, if Peace were then made: And also, the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund applicable in any given Year to the Extinction of such Debt.—The Price of Stocks is supposed to vary in the manner stated in Column 2 of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Price of Per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest Per Cent.
Amount of the Money Capital of War Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the War Debt at the Periods.
Amount of the Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
References to the Effect produced on the Amount of the Money Capital of the Debt, by the Rise of the Funds, in the different Periods here supposed.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
60·
=5
12,000,000
600,000
11,400,000
3 per Cents. 63·16.
3 per Cents. 66·66
3 per Cents. 70.58.
3 per Cents. 75.
1808
631·6
=4¾
a
1,260,000
22,740,000
1809
34,740,000
1,949,850
32,790,150
1810
66·66
=4½
b
2,812,467
45,799,358
1811
61,799,358
3,819,028
57,980,330
1812
70·58
=4¼
c
4,910,884
72,480,053
1813
88,480,053
6,039,596
82,440,457
1814
75·
=4
d
7,256,278
96,336,707
Money Capital increased inconsequence of the Rise of the Funds.
12,000,000
34,611,825
61,390,937
87,592,985
1815
And to continue at that Rate throughout
112,336,707
8,506,529
103,830,178
1816
119,830,178
9,806,790
110,023,388
1817
126,023,388
11,159,061
114,864,327
1818
130,864,327
12,565,423
118,298,904
Money Capital before the Rise of the Funds.
11,400,000
32,790,150
57,980,330
82,440,457
1819
134,298,904
14,028,039
120,270,865
1820
136,270,865
15,691,126
117,030,579
1821
132,721,705
15,838,771
113,191,808
1822
129,030,579
15,992,321
109,199,487
1823
125,191,808
15,992,321
109,199,487
YEAR.
a
b
c
d
1824
123,199,487
16,072,013
107,127,474
1825
123,127,474
16,074,893
107,052,581
1826
123,052,581
16,077,888
106,974,693
*Note.—In this Table, and in the succeeding Tables G.2, H. 2, and I. 2, the respective sinking funds for the reduction of the respective debts are supposed to operate by compound interest at the respective yearly rates stated in column 2 of this Table: But the respective sinking funds are issued to the commissioners quarterly. For these reasons the capitals of debt redeemed, and the progressive amounts of the sinking funds, will be greater than the computations in this and the other tables G. 2, H. 2, and I. 2, represent them, though not in such a proportion as to make it necessary to embarrass the accounts by taking into consideration the several different rates of interest correspondent to the periodical issues of the sinking funds for the reduction of debt, by quarterly payments.
TABLE F. 3.*
Shewing the Total Amount of the DEBT charged on the War Taxes, as it will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year, if Peace were then made: And also, the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund applicable in any given Year to the Extinction of such Debt.—The Prices of Stocks are supposed to vary in the Manner stated in Column 2 of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Price of Per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest Per Cent.
Amount of the Money Capital of War Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the War Debt at the Periods.
Amount of the Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
References to the Effect produced on the Amount of the Money Capital of the Debt, by the Rise of the Funds, in the different Periods here supposed.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
60
=5
12,000,000
600,000
11,400,000
3 per Cents. 66.66.
3 per Cents. 75.
3 per Cents. 85.71.
3 per Cents. at par.
1808
66.66
=4½
a
1,290,000
23,376,666
1809
35,376,666
2,008,050
33,368,616
1810
75
=4
b
2,988,412
48,601,281
1811
64,601,281
4,015,948
60,585,333
1812
85.71
=3½
c
5,216,585
80,023,795
1813
96,023,795
6,439,165
89,584,630
1814
Par.
=3
d
7,784,535
112,730,866
Money Capital increased by the Rise of the Funds.
12,666,666
37,539,693
69,240,380
104,515,401
1815
And to continue at that Rate throughout
128,730,866
9,138,071
119,592,795
1816
135,592,795
10,532,213
125,060,582
1817
141,060,582
11,968,179
129,092,403
1818
145,092,403
13,447,224
131,645,179
Money Capital before the Rise of the Funds.
11,400,000
33,368,616
60,585,333
89,584,630
1819
147,645,179
14,970,640
132,674,539
1820
148,674,539
16,539,759
132,134,780
1821
144,134,780
16,675,951
127,458,829
1822
139,458,829
16,816,229
122,642,600
1823
134,642,600
16,960,715
117,681,885
YEAR.
a
b
c
d
1824
131,681,885
17,049,536
114,632,349
1825
130,632,349
17,081,022
113,551,327
1826
129,551,327
17,113,452
112,487,875
*Note.—In this Table, and in the succeeding Tables G. 3, H. 3, and I. 3, the respective sinking funds for the reduction of the respective debts are supposed to operate by compound interest at the respective yearly rates stated in column 2 of this Table: but the respective sinking funds are issued to the commissioners quarterly: For these reasons the capitals of debt redeemed, and the progressive amounts of the sinking funds, will be greater than the computations in this and the other Tables G. 3, H. 3, and I. 3, represent them, though not in such a proportion as to make it necessary to embarrass the accounts by taking into consideration the several different rates of interest correspondent to the periodical issues of the sinking funds for the reduction of debt by quarterly payments.
TABLE F. 4.
Shewing at one view the different RESULTS of the three Tables, F, F. 2, and F. 3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table F.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 Years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table F. 2.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz, in 1814, to rise to 75.and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
3d SUPPOSITION.—Table F. 3.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 75. and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 85.71, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
1ST SUPPOSITION
2nd SUPPOSITION
3rd SUPPOSITION
Year
Amount of the Money Capital of War Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year. during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the War Debt at the same Periods.
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt, at the Close of each Year.
Amount of the Money Capital of War Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the War Debt at the same Periods.
Amount of the Money Capital of the same Debt, at the Close of each Year
Amount of the Money Capital of War Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the War Debt at the same Periods.
Amount of the Money Capital of the same Debt, at the Close of each Year.
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
1807
12,000,000
600,000
11,400,000
12,000,000
600,000
11,400,000
12,000,000
600,000
11,400,000
1808
23,400,000
1,230,000
22,170,000
24,000,000
1,260,000
22,740,000
24,666,666
1,290,000
23,376,666
1809
34,170,000
1,891,500
32,278,500
34,740,000
1,949,850
32,790,150
35,376,666
2,008,050
33,368,616
1810
46,278,500
2,686,075
43,592,425
48,611,825
2,812,467
45,799,358
51,539,693
2,938,412
48,601,281
1811
59,592,425
3,620,378
55,972,047
61,799,358
3,819,028
57,980,330
64,601,281
4,015,948
60,585,333
1812
71,972,047
4,601,396
67,370,651
77,390,937
4,910,884
72,480,053
85,240,380
5,216,585
80,023,795
1813
83,370,651
5,631,465
77,739,186
88,480,053
6,039,596
82,440,457
96,023,795
6,439,165
89,584,630
1814
93,739,186
6,713,038
87,026,148
103,592,985
7,256,278
95,336,707
120,515,401
7,784,535
112,730,866
1815
103,026,148
7,848,689
95,177,459
112,336,707
8,506,529
103,830,178
128,730,866
9,138,071
119,592,795
1816
111,177,459
9,041,123
102,136,336
119,830,178
9,806,790
110,023,388
135,592,795
10,532,213
125,060,582
1817
118,136,336
10,293,179
107,843,157
126,023,388
11,159,061
114,864,327
141,060,582
11,968,179
129,092,403
1818
123,843,157
11,607,837
112,235,320
130,864,327
12,565,423
118,298,904
145,092,403
13,447,224
131,645,179
1819
128,235,320
12,988,228
115,247,092
134,298,904
14,028,039
120,270,865
147,645,179
14,970,640
132,674,539
1820
131,247,092
14,437,639
116,809,453
136,270,865
15,549,160
120,721,705
148,674,539
16,539,759
132,134,780
1821
128,809,453
14,559,520
114,249,933
132,721,705
15,691,126
117,030,579
144,134,780
16,675,951
127,458,829
1822
126,249,933
14,687,496
111,562,437
129,030,579
15,838,771
113,191,808
139,458,829
16,816,229
122,642,600
1823
123,562,437
14,821,870
108,750,567
125,191,808
15,992,321
109,199,487
134,642,600
16,960,715
117,681,885
1824
122,740,567
14,862,963
107,877,604
123,199,487
16,072,013
107,127,474
131,681,885
17,049,536
114,632,349
1825
123,877,604
14,806,111
109,071,493
123,127,474
16,074,893
107,052,581
130,632,349
17,081,022
113,551,327
1826
125,071,493
14,746,416
110,325,077
123,052,581
16,077,888
106,974,693
129,551,327
17,113,452
112,437,875
TABLE G.*
Shewing the Total Amount of the DEBT created by the Supplementary Loans, as it will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year, if Peace were then made.—And also, the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund applicable in any given Year to the Extinction of such Debt.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR, Commencing
Amount of the Supplementary Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Debt at the same Periods.
Amount of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
£
£
£
5 January, 1807
200,000
3,333
196,666
5 January, 1808
1,596,666
26,832
1,569,834
5 January, 1809
4,169,834
71,506
4,098,328
5 January, 1810
6,098,328
108,414
5,989,914
5 January, 1811
7,589,914
140,500
7,449,414
5 January, 1812
10,649,414
200,858
10,448,556
5 January, 1813
15,248,556
290,900
14,957,656
5 January, 1814
21,357,656
412,111
20,945,545
5 January, 1815
28,945,545
566,049
28,379,496
5 January, 1816
37,979,496
754,351
37,225,145
3 January, 1817
48,425,145
978,734
47,446,411
5 January, 1818
60,246,411
1,241,003
59,005,408
5 January, 1819
73,405,408
1,543,053
71,862,355
5 January, 1820
87,862,355
1,886,871
85,975,484
5 January, 1821
105,975,484
2,314,547
103,660,937
5 January, 1822
123,660,937
2,763,607
120,897,330
5 January, 1823
140,897,330
3,235,120
137,662,210
5 January, 1824
155,662,210
3,696,876
151,965,334
5 January, 1825
167,965,334
4,148,385
163,816,949
5 January, 1826
170,816,949
4,622,470
175,194,479
* See Note to Table F.
TABLE G. 2.*
Shewing the Total Amount of the DEBT created by the SUPPLEMENTARY LOANS, as it will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year, if Peace were then made: And also, the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund applicable in any given Year to the Extinction of such Debt—The Price of Stocks is supposed to vary in the manner stated in Column 2. of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Price of Per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest Per Cent.
Amount of the Money Capital of the Supplementary Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Debt at the Periods.
Amount of the Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
References to the Effect produced on the Amount of the Money Capital of the Debt, by the Rise of the Funds, in the different Periods here supposed.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
60·
=5
200,000
3,333
196,667
3 per Cents. 63·16.
3 per Cents. 66·66
3 per Cents. 70.58.
3 per Cents. 75.
1802
63·16
=4¾
a
25,664
1,581,353
1809
4,181,353
68,048
4,113,305
1810
66·66
=4½
b
101,283
6,240,538
1811
7,840,538
129,842
7,710,696
1812
70·58
=4¼
c
181,022
11,183,244
1813
15,983,244
256,722
15,726,522
1814
75·
=4
d
352,965
22,756,464
1815
And to continue at that Rate throughout
30,756,464
473,749
30,282,715
1816
39,882,715
620,698
39,262,017
Money Capital increased inconsequence of the Rise of the Funds.
207,017
4,341,821
8,164,266
16,709,429
1817
50,462,017
794,858
49,667,159
1813
62,467,159
997,318
61,469,841
1819
75,869,841
1,229,210
74,640,631
1820
90,640,631
1,491,711
89,148,920
Money Capital before the Rise of the Funds.
196,667
4,113,305
7,710,696
15,726,522
1821
109,148,920
1,818,045
107,330,875
1822
127,330,875
2,510,395
142,663,048
1823
145,173,443
2,510,395
142,663,048
1824
160,663,048
2,850,810
157,812,238
1825
173,812,238
3,178,175
170,634,063
YEAR.
a
b
c
d
1126
186,634,063
3,518,635
183,115,428
TABLE G. 3.*
Shewing the Total Amount of the DEBT created by the SUPPLEMENTARY LOANS, as it will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year, if Peace were then made: And also, the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund applicable in any given Year to the Extinction of such Debt—The Price of Stocks is supposed to vary in the manner stated in Column 2. of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Price of Per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest Per Cent.
Amount of the Money Capital of the Supplementary Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Debt at the Periods.
Amount of the Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
References to the Effect produced on the Amount of the Money Capital of the Debt, by the Rise of the Funds, in the different Periods here supposed.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
60.
=5
200,000
3,333
196,667
3 per Cents. 66.66.
3 per Cents. 75.
3 per Cents. 85.71.
3 per Cents. at par.
1808
66.66
=4½
a
24,501
1,549,017
1809
4,194,017
64,606
4,129,411
1810
75
=4
b
94,179
6,551,408
1811
8,151,408
119,279
8,032,129
1812
85.71
=3½
c
161,385
12,218,191
1813
17,018,191
222,035
16,796,156
1814
Par.
=3
d
293,806
25,701,709
Money Capital increased in consequence of the Rise of the Funds.
218,518
4,645,587
9,179,576
19,595,515
1815
And to continue at that Rate throughout
33,701,709
382,620
33,319,089
1816
42,919,089
490,098
42,428,991
1817
53,628,991
616,800
53,012,191
1818
65,812,191
763,304
65,048,887
Money Capital before the Rise of the Funds.
196,667
4,129,411
8,032,129
16,796,156
1819
79,448,887
930,203
78,518,684
1820
94,518,684
1,118,109
93,400,575
1821
113,400,575
1,351,652
112,048,923
1822
132,048,923
1,592,201
130,456,722
1823
150,456,722
1,839,967
148,616,755
YEAR.
a
b
c
d
1824
166,616,755
2,075,166
164,541,589
1825
180,541,589
2,297,420
178,244,169
1826
194,244,169
2,526,342
191,717,827
* See Note to Table F. 2.
TABLE G.4
Shewing at one View the different RESULTS of the three Tables, G, G.2, and G. 3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table G.—The 3 Per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 Years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table G.2.—The 3 Per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811;_then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to 75. and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table G. 3.—The 3 per Cents are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 75. and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 85.71, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814,to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
1st SUPPOSITION
2d SUPPOSITION
3d SUPPOSITION
YEAR
Amount of Money Capital of the Supplementary Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Debt at the same Periods.
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt, at the Close of each Year.
Amount of Money Capital of the Supplementary Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Debt at the same Periods.
Amount of the Money Capital of the same Debt, at the Close of each Year.
Amount of Money Capital of the Supplementary Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year, during the Continuance of the War.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Debt at the same Periods
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt, at the Close of each Year.
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
1807
200,000
3,333
196,666
200,000
3,333
196,667
200,000
3,333
196,667
1808
1,596,666
26,832
1,569,834
1,607,017
25,664
1,581,353
1,618,518
24,501
1,594,017
1809
4,169,834
71,506
4,098,328
4,181,353
68,048
4,113,305
4,194,017
64,606
4,129,411
1810
6,098,328
108,414
5,989,914
6,341,821
101,283
6,240,538
6,645,587
94,179
6,551,408
1811
7,589,914
140,500
7,449,414
7,840,538
129,842
7,510,696
8,151,408
119,279
8,032,129
1812
10,649,414
200,858
10,448,556
11,364,266
181,022
11,183,244
12,379,576
161,385
12,218,191
1813
15,248,556
290,900
14,957,656
15,983,244
256,722
15,726,522
17,018,191
222,035
16,796,156
1814
21,357,656
412,111
20,945,545
23,109,429
352,965
22,756,464
25,995,515
293,806
25,701,709
1815
28,945,545
566,049
28,379,496
30,756,464
473,749
30,282,715
33,701,709
382,620
33,319,089
1816
37,979,496
754,351
37,225,145
39,882,715
620,698
39,262,017
42,919,089
490,098
42,428,991
1817
48,421,145
978,734
47,446,411
50,462,017
794,858
49,667,159
53,628,991
616,800
53,012,191
1818
60,246,411
1,241,003
59,005,408
62,467,159
997,318
61,469,841
65,812,191
763,304
65,048,887
1819
73,405,408
1,543,053
71,862,355
75,869,841
1,229,210
74,640,631
79,448,887
1,118,109
93,400,575
1820
87,862,355
1,886,871
85,975,484
90,640,631
1,491,711
89,148,920
94,518,684
1,118,109
93,400,575
1821
105,975,484
2,314,547
103,660,937
109,148,920
1,818,045
107,330,875
113,400,575
1,351,652
112,048,923
1822
123,660,937
2,763,607
120,879,330
127,330,875
2,157,432
125,173,443
132,048,923
1,592,201
130,456,722
1823
140,897,330
3,235,120
137,662,210
145,173,443
2,510,395
142,663,048
150,456,722
1,839,967
148,616,755
1824
155,662,210
3,696,876
151,965,334
160,663,048
2,850,810
157,812,238
166,616,755
2,07_,166
164,541,589
1825
167,965,334
4,148,385
163,816,949
173,182,238
3,178,175
170,634,063
180,541,589
2,297,420
178,244,169
1826
179,816,949
4,622,470
175,194,479
186,634,063
3,518,635
183,115,428
194,244,169
2,526,342
191,717,827
TABLE H.*
Shewing the Total Amount of the present DEBT, as it will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year; and also, the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund applicable in each Year to the Extinction of such Debt; the Portions of the Excesses of the Sinking Fund above the Interest of the Existing Debt for the Time being, which will be applied in Diminution_of the Amount of New Taxes, as by Table D. having been first deducted from such Sinking Fund in each Year.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR, Commencing
Amount of the present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount of the present Sinking Fund at the same Periods.
Amount of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
£
£
£
5 January, 1807
352,793,722
8,331,709
344,462,013
5 January, 1808
344,462,013
8,748,294
335,713,719
5 January, 1809
335,713,719
9,185,708
326,528,011
5 January, 1810
326,528,011
9,644,993
316,883,018
5 January, 1811
316,883,018
10,127,242
306,755,776
5 January, 1812
306,755,776
10,633,604
296,122,172
5 January, 1813
296,122,172
11,165,284
284,956,888
5 January, 1814
284,956,888
11,723,548
273,233,340
5 January, 1815
273,233,340
12,309,725
260,923,615
5 January, 1816
260,923,615
12,925,211
247,998,404
5 January, 1817
247,998,404
12,824,805
235,173,599
5 January, 1818
235,173,599
12,612,712
222,560,887
5 January, 1819
222,560,887
12,283,347
210,277,540
5 January, 1820
210,277,540
11,830,848
198,446,692
5 January, 1821
198,446,692
11,089,057
187,357,635
5 January, 1822
187,357,635
10,310,176
177,047,459
5 January, 1823
177,047,459
9,492,351
167,555,108
5 January, 1824
167,555,108
8,766,968
158,788,140
5 January, 1825
158,788,140
8,138,650
150,649,490
5 January, 1826
150,649,490
7,532,474
143,117,016
*See Note to Table F.
TABLE H. 2.*
Shewing the Total Amount of the present DEBT, as it will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year: and also, the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund applicable in each Year to the Extinction of such Debt; the Portions of the Excesses of the Sinking Fund above the Interest of the existing Debt for the Time being, which will be Applied in Diminution of the Amount of New Taxes, as by Table D.2., having been first deducted from such Sinking Fund in each Year.—The Price of Stocks is supposed to vary in the manner stated in Column 2. of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Price of 3 Per Cent Stock.
Price of 4 Per Cent Stock.
Price of Interest Per Cent.
Amount of Money Capital of the present Debt remaining Unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount of the present Sinking Fund at the same Periods.
Amount of the Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
References to the Effect produced on the Amount of the Money Capital of the Debt, by the Rise of the Funds, in the different Periods here supposed
YEAR.
Nominal Capital.
Money Capital.
a
48,052,931
48,052,931
5 Per cents. at Par
46,807,684
37,446,147
4 Per cents. at 80.
445,491,074
267,294,644
3 Per Cent. at 60
£
Money Capital before the Rise of the Funds.
Money Capital increased in consequence of the Rise of the Funds
£
£
£
1807
60.
=80.
=5
a
8,331,709
344,462,013
b
344,462,013
1808
63.16
=84.21
=4¾
b
8,748,294
351,314,197
48,052,931
48,052,931
5 Per Cents. at Par.
1809
351,314,197
9,163,837
342,150,360
£
312,009,560
4 Per Cents. at 84.21
1810
66.66
=88.88
=4½
358,489,106
9,599,119
348,889,987
£
1811
348,489,106
10,031,079
338,358,908
c
342,150,360
1812
70.58
=94.11
=4¼
d
10,482,477
345,482,664
48,052,931
48,052,931
5 Per Cents. at Par.
1813
345,482,664
10,927,982
334,554,682
£
310,436,175
4 Per Cents. at 88·88
1814
75
=Par
=4
352,461,041
11,392,421
341,968,620
£
1815
And to continue at that Rate throughout the rest of this Period of 20 Years.
341,068,620
11,848,117
329,220,503
1816
329,220,503
12,322,041
316,898,462
d
338,858,908
1817
316,898,462
12,675,938
304,222,524
48,052,931
48,052,931
5 Per Cents. at Par
1818
304,222,524
12,500,309
291,722,215
£
307,912,210
4 Per Cents. at 94·11
1819
291,722,215
12,232,321
279,489,894
£
1820
279,489,894
11,868,280
267,621,614
1821
267,621,614
11,276,345
256,345,269
e
334,554,682
1822
256,345,296
10,660,732
245,684,537
48,052,931
48,052,931
5 Per Cents. at Par.
1823
245,684,537
10,020,495
235,664,042
£
4 Per Cents. at Par.
1824
235,664,042
9,461,314
226,202,728
£
1825
226,202,728
9,048,109
217,154,619
1826
217,154,619
8,686,184
208,468,435
f
The 5 Per Cents. being at the commencement of this year reduced to à 4 per cent. Fund, there will be a
£
*See Note to Table F.3.
TABLE H. 3.*
Shewing the Total Amount of the present DEBT, as it will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year: and also, the Total Amount of the Sinking Fund applicable in each Year to the Extinction of such Debt; the Portions of the Excesses of the Sinking Fund above the Interest of the ex_sting Debt for the Time being, which will be applied in Diminution of the Amount of New Taxes, as by Table D.3., having been first deducted from such Sinking Fund in each Year.—The Price of Stocks is supposed to vary in the manner stated in Column 2. of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Price of 3 Per Cent Stock.
Price of 4 Per Cent Stock.
Rate of Interest Per Cent.
Amount of Money Capital of the present Debt remaining Unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount of the present Sinking Fund at the same Periods.
Amount of the Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
References to the Effect produced on the Amount of the Money Capital of the Debt, by the Rise of the Funds, in the different Periods here supposed
YEAR
Nominal Capital.
Money Capital.
a
48,052,931
48,052,931
5 Per cents. at Par
46,807,684
37,446,147
4 Per cents. at 80.
445,491,074
267,294,644
3 Per Cent. at 60.
£
£
£
£
1807
80.
=80.
=5
a
8,331,709
344,462,013
b
Money Capital before the Rise of the Funds.
Money Capital increased in consequence of the Rise of the Funds
1808
66.66
=88.88
=4½
377,396,355
8,748,294
368,648,061
1809
368,648,061
9,241,967
359,406,094
1810
75.
=Par
=4
c
9,657,855
388,667,384
344,462,013
1811
388,667,384
10,044,169
378,623,215
48,052,931
5 Per Cent. At Par.
1812
85.71=
--
=3½
d
10,445,935
408,714,794
£
329,343,424
4 Per Cent. at 88.88.
1813
408,714,794
10,811,542
397,903,252
£
1814
Par.=
--
=3
e
f
437,220,413
c
359,406,094
1815
And to continue at that Rate throughout the rest of this Period of 20 Years.
437,220,413
11,525,643
425,694,770
48,052,931
48,052,931
5 Per Cents. at Par.
1816
425,694,770
11,871,412
413,823,358
£
350,272,308
4 Per Cent. at Par, &
1817
413,823,358
12,227,554
401,595,804
£
1818
401,595,804
12,082,380
389,513,424
d
378,623,215
1819
389,513,424
11,868,851
377,644,573
94,860,615
94,860,615
4 & 5 Per Cents. at Par.
1820
377,644,573
11,584,916
366,059,657
£
3 Per Cents at 85.71.
£.398,325,239
1821
366,059,657
11,132,463
354,927,124
£
1822
354,927,194
10,666,463
344,266,758
e
397,903,252
1823
344,260,758
10,327,822
333,932,936
94,860,615
94,860,615
4 & 5 Per Cents. at Par
1824
333,932,936
10,017,988
323,914,948
£
353,549,743
3 Per Cents. at 75.
1825
323,914,948
9,717,448
314,197,500
£
1826
314,197,500
9,425,925
304,771,575
f
The 5 Per Cents, being at the commencement of this Year reduced to a 4 per Cent. Fund, there will be a saving of Interest to the Amount of
L. 480,529
1814
The 4 Per Cents. being at the commencement of this Year reduced to a 3 per Cent. Fund, there will be a saving of Interest to the Amount of
L. 948,606.
*See Note to Table F.3.
TABLE H. 4.
Shewing at one View the different RESULTS of the Three Tables, H, H. 2, & H. 3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table H.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole Period of 20 Years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table H. 2.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz ,1807) at 60; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to 75. and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table H.3.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the_1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 75, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 85.71; and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
1st SUPPSOITION
2nd SUPPSOITION
2nd SUPPSOITION
YEAR
Amount of Money Capital of the present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year
Amount of the present Sinking fund at the same Periods.
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year
Amount of Money Capital of the present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount of the present Sinking Fund at the same Periods.
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
Amount of Money Capital of the present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
Amount of the present Sinking Fund at the same Periods.
Amount of Money Capital of the same Debt at the Close of each Year.
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
1807
352,793,722
8,331,709
344,462,013
352,793,722
8,331,709
344,462,013
352,793,722
8,331,709
344,462,013
1808
344,462,013
8,748,294
335,713,719
360,062,491
8,748,294
351,314,197
377,396,355
8,748,294
368,648,061
1809
335,713,719
9,185,708
326,528,011
351,314,197
9,163,837
342,150,360
368,648,061
9,241,967
359,406,094
1810
326,528,011
9,644,993
316,883,018
358,489,106
9,599,119
348,889,987
398,325,239
9,657,855
388,667,384
1811
316,883,018
10,127,242
306,755,776
348,889,987
10,051,079
338,858,908
398,667,384
10,044,169
378,623,215
1812
306,755,776
10,633,604
296,122,172
355,965,141
10,482,477
345,482,664
419,160,729
10,445,935
408,714,794
1813
296,122,172
11,165,284
284,956,888
345,482,664
10,927,982
334,554,682
4_8,714,794
10,811,542
397,903,252
1814
284,956,888
11,723,548
273,233,340
352,461,041
11,392,421
341,068,620
448,410,358
11,189,945
437,220,413
1815
273,233,340
12,309,725
260,923,615
341,068,620
11,848,117
329,220,503
437,220,413
11,525,643
425,694,770
1816
260,923,615
12,925,211
247,998,404
329,220,503
12,322,041
316,898,462
425,694,770
11,871,412
413,823,358
1817
247,998,404
12,824,805
235,173,599
316,898,462
12,675,938
304,222,524
413,823,358
12,227,554
401,595,804
1818
235,173,599
12,612,712
222,560,887
304,22,524
12,500,309
291,722,215
401,595,804
12,082,380
389,513,424
1819
222,560,887
12,283,347
210,277,540
291,722,215
12,232,321
279,489,894
389,513,424
11,868,851
377,644,573
1820
210,277,540
11,830,848
198,446,692
279,489,894
11,868,280
267,621,614
377,644,573
11,584,916
366,059,657
1821
198,446,692
11,089,057
187,357,635
267,621,614
11,276,345
256,345,269
366,059,657
11,132,463
354,927,194
1822
187,357,635
10,310,176
177,047,459
256,345,269
10,660,732
245,684,537
354,927,194
10,666,436
344,260,758
1823
177,047,459
9,492,351
167,555,108
245,684,537
10,020,495
235,664,042
344,260,758
10,327,822
333,932,936
1824
167,555,108
8,766,968
158,788,140
235,664,042
9,461,314
226,202,728
333,932,936
10,017,988
323,914,948
1825
158,788,140
8,138,650
150,649,490
226,202,728
9,048,109
217,154,619
323,914,948
9,717,448
314,197,500
1826
150,649_490
7,532,474
143,117,016
217,154,619
8,686,184
208,468,435
314,197,500
9,425,925
304,771,575
TABLE I.
Shewing the Total Amount of the Three following DEBTS combined, as they will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year; viz.-The Debt charged upon the War Taxes (Table F.); the Debt created by the Supplementary Loans (Table G.); and, the present Debt (Table H.):-And also, the Total Amount in any given Year of all the respective Sinking Funds of the said Debts, the Portions of the Excesses of the Sinking Fund (Table H.) having been first deducted.-The 3 per Cents. supposed to continue at 60.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Year Commencing
The Combined Amount of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt remaining Unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
The Combined Amount of the Sinking Funds of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt, at the same Periods.
The Combined Amount of the same Debts at the Close of each Year.
?
?
?
5 January, 1807
364,993,722
8,935,042
356,058,680
5 January, 1808
369,458,679
10,005,126
359,453,553
5 January, 1809
374,053,553
11,148,714
362,904,839
5 January, 1810
378,904,839
12,439,482
366,465,357
5 January, 1811
384,065,357
13,888,120
370,177,237
5 January, 1812
389,377,237
15,435,858
373,941,379
5 January, 1813
394,741,379
17,087,649
377,653,730
5 January, 1814
400,053,730
18,848,697
381,205,033
5 January, 1815
405,205,033
20,724,463
384,480,570
5 January, 1816
410,080,570
22,720,685
387,359,885
5 January, 1817
414,559,885
24,096,718
390,463,167
5 January, 1818
419,263,167
25,461,552
393,801,615
5 January, 1819
424,201,615
26,814,628
397,386,987
5 January, 1820
429,386,987
28,155,358
401,231,629
5 January, 1821
433,231,629
27,963,124
405,268,505
5 January, 1822
437,268,505
27,761,279
409,507,226
5 January, 1823
441,507,226
27,549,341
413,957,885
5 January, 1824
445,957,885
27,326,807
418,631,078
5 January, 1825
450,631,078
27,093,146
423,537,932
5 January, 1826
455,537,932
26,901,360
428,636,572
*
TABLE I.2*
Shewing the Total Amount, of the Three following DEBTS combined, as they will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year, viz. the Debt charged upon the War Taxes, (Table F. 2.) the Debt created by the Supplementary Loans, (Table G. 2.) and the present Debt (Table H. 2.); and also the Total Amount in any given Year, of all the respective Sinking Funds of the said Debts.-The Price of Stocks is supposed to vary in the manner stated in Col 2. of this Table.
Shewing the Total Amount, of the Three following DEBTS combined, as they will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year, viz. the Debt charged upon the War Taxes, (Table F. 2.) the Debt created by the Supplementary Loans, (Table G. 2.) and the present Debt (Table H. 2.); and also the Total Amount in any given Year, of all the respective Sinking Funds of the said Debts.-The Price of Stocks is supposed to vary in the manner stated in Col 2. of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
Year
Price of 3 per Cent. Stock
Price of 4 per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest per Cent.
The Combined Amount of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt, remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year
The Combined Amount of the Sinking Funds of the War Debt the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt, at the same Periods.
The Combined Amount of the same Debts at the Close of each Year.
?
?
?
?
1807
60
=80
* = 5
364,993,722
8,935,042
356,058,680
1808
63.16
=84.21
=4¾
385,669,508
10,033,958
375,635,550
1809
390,235,550
11,181,735
379,953,815
1810
66.66
=88.88
=4½
413,442,752
12,512,869
400,929,883
1811
418,529,883
13,979,949
404,549,934
1812
70.58
=94.11
=4¼
444,720,344
15,574,383
429,145,961
1813
449,945,961
17,224,300
432,721,661
1814
75
=Par.
479,163,455
19,001,664
460,151,791
1815
484,161,791
20,828,395
463,333,396
1816
488,933,396
22,749,529
466,183,867
1817
493,383,867
24,629,857
468,754,010
1818
497,554,010
26,063,050
471,490,960
1819
And to continue
501,890,960
27,489,570
474,401,390
1820
506,401,390
28,909,151
477,492,239
1821
509,492,239
28,785,516
480,706,723
1822
512,706,723
28,656,935
484,049,788
1823
516,049,788
28,523,211
487,526,577
1824
519,526,577
28,384,137
491,142,440
1825
523,142,440
28,301,177
494,841,263
1826
526,841,263
28,282,707
498,558,556
*
*
a
† See note
*
f
TABLE I.3.*
Shewing the Total Amount of the Three following DEBTS combined, as they will stand at the Commencement and Close of any given Year, viz. the Debt charged upon the War Taxes, (Table F. 3.) the Debt created by the Supplementary Loans, (Table G. 3.) and the present Debt (Table H. 2.); and also the Total Amount in any given Year, of all the respective Sinking Funds of the said Debts.-The Price of Stocks is supposed to vary in the manner stated in Column 2. of this Table.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR
Price of 3per Cent. Stock.
Price of 4 per Cent. Stock.
&Rate of Interest per Cent.
The Combined Amount of the War Debt, the, Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt, remaining Unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
The Combined Amount of the Sinking Funds of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt, at the same Periods.
The Combined Amount of the same Debts at the Close of each Year
?
?
?
?
1807
60.
=80
= 5
364,993,722
8,935,042
356,058,680
1808
66.66
=88.88
=4½
403,681,539
10,063,795
393,618,744
1809
408,218,744
11,314,623
396,904,121
1810
75.
= Par
=4
456,510,519
12,690,446
443,820,073
1811
461,420,073
14,179,396
447,240,677
1812
85.71
=3¼
516,780,685
15,823,905
500,956,780
1813
521,756,780
17,472,742
504,284,038
1814
Par
=3
594,921,274
19,268,286
575,652,988
1815
599,652,988
21,046,334
573,606,654
1816
604,206,654
22,893,723
581,312,931
1817
608,512,931
24,812,533
583,700,398
1818
612,500,398
26,292,908
586,207,490
1819
616,607,490
27,769,694
588,837,796
1820
620,837,796
29,242,784
591,595,012
1821
623,595,012
29,160,066
594,434,946
1822
626,434,946
29,074,866
597,360,080
1823
629,360,080
29,128,504
600,231,576
1824
632,231,576
29,142,690
603,088,886
1825
635,088,886
29,095,890
605,992,996
1826
637,992,996
29,065,719
608,927,277
*
*
a
See note
*
f
TABLE I. 4.
Shewing at one View the difference RESULTS of the Three Tables, I, I.2, & I.3.
1st SUPPOSITION1-Table I.-The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. through the whole Period of 20 Years.
2nd SUPPOSITION-Table I.2.-The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz, 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to 75. and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
3rd SUPPOSITION-Table I.3.-The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807 at 60.; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 75, and so to continue for two years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 85.71; and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
1st SUPPOSITION.
2nd SUPPOSITION.
3rd SUPPOSITION.
YEAR
The Combined Amount of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
The Combined Amount of the Sinking Funds of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt, at the same Periods.
The Combined Amount of the same Debts at the Close of each Year.
The Combined Amount of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt and the present Debt, remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
The Combined Amount of the Sinking Funds of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt, at the same Periods.
The Combined Amount of the same Debts at the Close of each Year.
The Combined Amount of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt remaining unredeemed at the Commencement of each Year.
The Combined Amount of the Sinking Funds of the War Debt, the Supplementary Debt, and the present Debt, at the same Periods.
The Combined Amount of the same Debts at the Close of each Year.
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
1807
364,993,722
8,935,042
356,058,680
364,993,722
8,935,042
356,058,680
364,993,722
8,935,042
356,038,680
1808
369,458,679
10,005,126
359,453,553
385,669,508
10,033,958
375,635,550
403,681,539
10,063,795
393,618,744
1809
374,053,553
11,148,714
362,904,839
390,235,550
11,181,735
379,053,815
408,218,744
11,314,623
396,904,121
1810
378,904,839
12,493,482
366,465,357
413,442,752
12,512,869
400,929,883
456,510,519
12,690,446
443,820,073
1811
384,065,357
13,888,120
370,177,237
418,529,883
13,979,949
404,549 934
461,420,073
14,179,396
447,240,677
1812
389,377,237
15,435,858
373,941,379
444,720,344
15,574,383
429,145,961
516,780,685
15,823,903
500,956,780
1813
394,741,379
17,087 649
377,653,730
449,945,961
17,224,300
432,721,661
521,756,780
17,472,742
504,284,038
1814
400,053,730
18,848,697
381,205,033
479,163,455
19,001,664
460,151,791
594,921,274
19,268,286
575,652,988
1815
405,205,033
20,724,463
384,480,570
484,161,791
20,828,395
463,333,396
599,652,988
21,046,334
578,606,654
1816
410,080,570
22,720,685
387,359,885
488,933,396
22,749,529
466,183,867
604,206,654
22,893,723
581,312,931
1817
414,559,885
24,096,718
390,463,167
493,383,867
24,629,857
468,754,010
608,512,931
24,812,533
583,700,398
1818
419,263,167
25,461,552
393,801,615
497,554,010
26,063,050
471,490,960
612,500,398
26,292,908
586,207,490
1819
424,201,615
26,814,628
397,386,987
501,890,960
27,489,570
474,401,390
616,607,490
27,769,694
588,837,796
1820
429,386,987
28,155,358
401,231,629
506,401,390
28,909,151
477,492,239
620,837,796
29,242,784
591.595,012
1821
433,231,629
27,963,124
405,268,505
509,492,239
28,785,516
480,706,723
623,595,012
29,160,066
594,434,946
1822
437,268,505
27,761,279
409,507,226
512,706,723
28,656,935
484,049,788
626,434,946
29,074,866
597,360,080
1823
441,507,226
27,549,341
413,957,885
516,049,788
28,523,211
487,526,577
629,360,080
29,128,504
600,231,576
1824
445,957,885
27,326,807
418,631,078
519,526,577
28,384,137
491,142,440
632,231,576
29,142,690
603,088,886
1825
450,631,078
27,093,146
423,537,932
523,142,440
28,301,177
494,841,263
635,088,886
29,095,890
605,927,996
1826
455,537,932
26,901,360
428,636,572
526,841,263
28,282,707
498,538,556
637,992,996
29,065,719
608,927,277
TABLE K.
Shewing the Comparative Amounts of NEW TAXES which will be required in each Year, according to the Plan in Table C. Column 4, and of New Taxes, which would be required to provide for
£.
1.
2.
3.
4.
YEAR, Commencing
TAXES which will be required according to the Plan proposed in Table C. Colum
TAXES which would be required according to the present System.
£.
£.
5 January, 1807
Nil.
717,818*
5 January, 1808
Nil.
363,333†
5 January, 1809
Nil.
733,333
5 January, 1810
293,000
733,333
5 January, 1811
293,000
733,333
5 January, 1812
293,000
733,333
5 January, 1813
293,000
753,333
5 January, 1814
293,000
733,333
5 January, 1815
293,000
733,333
5 January, 1816
293,000
733,333
5 January, 1817
Nil.
733,333
5 January, 1818
Nil.
733,333
5 January, 1819
Nil.
733,333
5 January, 1820
Nil.
435,786‡
5 January, 1821
Nil.
733,333
5 January, 1822
Nil.
733,333
5 January, 1823
Nil.
733,333
5 January, 1824
Nil.
733,333
5 January, 1825
Nil.
733,333
5 January, 1826
Nil.
733,333
* This sum, together with 15,515
l
l
† This sum, together with 370,000
l
l
‡ This sum, together with 230,000
l
l
l
TABLE K. 2.
Shewing the comparative Amounts of NEW TAXES which will be required in each Year, according to the Plan in Table C. 2. Column 5, and of New Taxes which would be required to provide for
£.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR.
Price of 3 per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest per Cent.
TAXES which will be required according to the Plan proposed in Table C 2, Column 5.
TAXES which would be required according to the present System.
£.
£.
£.
1807
60 =5
Nil.
717,818 *
1808
63.16=4¾
Nil.
326,660 †
1809
Nil.
696,660
1810
66.66=4½
230,000
660,016
1811
230,000
660,016
1812
70,58=4¼
230,000
623,351
1813
230,000
623,351
1814
75 =4
230,000
106,137 ‡
1815
And to continue at that rate throughout the rest of this period of 20 years.
230,000
586,666
1816
230,000
586,666
1817
Nil.
586,666
1818
Nil.
586,666
1819
Nil.
586,666
1820
Nil.
289,119 §
1821
Nil.
586,666
1822
Nil.
586,666
1823
Nil.
586,666
1824
Nil.
586,666
1825
Nil.
586,666
1826
Nil.
586,666
* This sum, together with 15,515
l
l
† This sum, together with 370,000
l
l
‡ This sum, together with 480,529
l
l
§ This sum, together with 230,000
l
l
l
TABLE K. 3.
Shewing the comparative Amounts of NEW TAXES which will be required in each Year, according to the Plan in Table C. 3. Column 5, and of New Taxes which would be required to provide for 11,000,000
l
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR.
Price of 3 per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest per Cent.
TAXES which will be required according to the Plan proposed in Table C 3, Column 5.
TAXES which would be required according to the present System.
£.
£.
1807
60=5
Nil.
* 717,818
1808
66.66=4½
† 290,000
1809
660,000
1810
75=4
‡ 106,137
1811
586,666
1812
85.71=3½
513,333
1813
513,333
1814
Par =3
|| Nil.
1815
|| Nil.
1816
|| 353,622
1817
275,836
440,000
1818
Nil.
440,000
1819
440,000
1820
§ 142;453
1821
440,000
1822
440,000
1823
440,000
1824
440,000
1825
440,000
1826
440,000
* This sum, together with 15,515
l
l
† This sum, together with 370,000
l
l
‡ This sum, together with 480,529
l
l
|| The sum of 948,606
l
§ This sum, together with 230,000
l
l
l
TABLE K. 4.
Shewing at one View the different RESULTS of the three Tables, K, K. 2, and K. 3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table K.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 Years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table K. 2.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to 75. and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table K. 3.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 75. and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 85.71, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
YEAR.
1st SUPPOSITION.
2d SUPPOSITION.
3d SUPPOSITION.
TAXES which will be required according to the proposed Plan.
TAXES which would be required according to the present System.
TAXES which will be required according to the proposed Plan.
TAXES which would be required according to the present System.
TAXES which will be required according to the proposed Plan.
TAXES which would be required according to the present System.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
Nil.
717,818
Nil.
717,818
Nil.
717,818
1808
Nil.
363,333
Nil.
326,660
Nil.
290,000
1809
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
696,660
Nil.
660,000
1810
293,000
733,333
230,000
660,016
Nil.
106,137
1811
293,000
733,333
230,000
660,016
Nil.
586,666
1812
293,000
733,333
230,000
623,351
Nil.
513,333
1813
293,000
733,333
230,000
623,351
Nil.
513,333
1814
293,000
733,333
230,000
106,137
Nil.
Nil.
1815
293,000
733,333
230,000
586,666
Nil.
Nil.
1816
293,000
733,333
230,000
586,666
Nil.
353,622
1817
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
586,666
275,836
440,000
1818
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
586,666
Nil.
440,000
1819
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
586,666
Nil.
440,000
1820
Nil.
435,786
Nil.
289,119
Nil.
142,453
1821
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
586,666
Nil.
440,000
1822
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
586,666
Nil.
440,000
1823
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
586,666
Nil.
440,000
1824
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
586,666
Nil.
440,000
1825
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
586,606
Nil.
440,000
1826
Nil.
733,333
Nil.
586,666
Nil.
440,000
TABLE L.*
Shewing the Comparative Total Amounts in any given Year, of all the NEW TAXES which will have been imposed, subsequent to the 5th of January, 1807, according to the Plan proposed in Table C. Column 4:—And of the New Taxes which would have been imposed, supposing
£
1.
2.
3.
4.
YEAR, Commencing
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which will be imposed subsequently to 1807, according to the Plan proposed, in Table C. Column 4.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which would have been imposed after 1807, if Loans were raised according to the present System.
£.
£.
5 January, 1807
Nil.
717,818
5 January, 1808
Nil.
1,081,151
5 January, 1809
Nil.
1,814,484
5 January, 1810
293,000
2,547,817
5 January, 1811
586,000
3,281,150
5 January, 1812
879,000
4,014,483
5 January, 1813
1,172,000
4,747,816
5 January, 1814
1,465,000
5,481,149
5 January, 1815
1,758,000
6,214,482
5 January, 1816
2,051,000
6,947,815
5 January, 1817
No New Taxes being required subsequent to the year 1816, the Total will remain the same, during the whole of these years.
7,681,148
5 January, 1818
8,414,481
5 January, 1819
9,147,814
5 January, 1820
9,583,600
5 January, 1821
10,316,933
5 January, 1822
11,050,266
5 January, 1823
11,783,599
5 January, 1824
12,516,932
5 January, 1825
13,250,265
5 January, 1826
13,983,598
* This sum of eleven millions loan, added to twenty-one millions of war taxes, would make up the annual sum of thirty-two millions, the same expenditure for which it is proposed to provide by this plan.
TABLE L. 2.
Shewing the comparative Total Amounts in any given Year, of all the NEW TAXES which will have been imposed subsequently to the 5th of January, 1807, according to the Plan proposed in Table C. 2. Column 5:—And of the New Taxes which would have been imposed, supposing
£
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR.
Price of 3 Per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest per Cent.
Total amount in any given Year, of Taxes which will have been imposed subsequently to 1807, according to the Plan proposed in Table C. 2. Column 5.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which would have been imposed, after 1807, if Loans were raised according to the present System.
£.
£.
£.
1807
60. =5
Nil.
717,818
1808
63.16=4¾
Nil.
1,044,478
1809
Nil.
1,741,138
1810
66.66=4½
230,000
2,401,154
1811
460,000
3,061,170
1812
70.58=4¼
690,000
3,684,521
1813
920,000
4,307,872
1814
75. =4
1,150,000
4,414,009
1815
And to continue at that rate throughout the rest of this period of 20 years.
1,380,000
5,000,675
1816
1,610,000
5,587,341
1817
As no fresh taxes are required to be imposed in these years, the Total remains the same.
6,174,007
1818
6,760,673
1819
7,347,339
1820
7,636,458
1821
8,223,124
1822
8,809,790
1823
9,396,456
1824
9,983,122
1825
10,569,788
1826
11,156,454
* This sum of eleven millions loan, added to twenty-one millions war taxes, would make up the annual sum of thirty-two millions, the same expenditure for which it is proposed to provide by this plan.
TABLE L. 3.
Shewing the comparative Total Amounts in any given Year, of all the NEW TAXES which will have been imposed subsequently to the 5th of January, 1807, according to the Plan proposed in Table C. 3. Column 5:—And of the New Taxes which would have been imposed, supposing
£.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
YEAR.
Price of 3 Per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest per Cent.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which will have been imposed subsequently to 1807, according to the Plan proposed in Table C. 3. Column 5.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which would have been imposed after 1807, if Loans were raised according to the present System.
£.
£.
£.
1807
60. =5
Nil.
717,818
1808
66.66=4½
1,007,818
1809
1,667,818
1810
75. =4
1,773,955
1811
2,360,621
1812
85.7l=3½
2,873,954
1813
3,387,287
1814
Par =3
3,387,287
1815
3,387,287
1816
And to continue at that rate throughout the rest of this period of 20 years.
3,740,909
1817
275,836
4,180,909
1818
As no taxes are required to be imposed in these years, the Total remains the same.
4,620,909
1819
5,060,909
1820
5,203,362
1821
5,643,362
1822
6,083,362
1823
6,523,362
1824
6,963,362
1825
7,403,362
1826
7,843,362
* This sum of eleven millions loan, added to twenty-one millions war taxes, would makeup the annual sum of thirty-two millions, the same expenditure for which it is proposed to provide by this plan.
TABLE L. 4.
Shewing at one View the different RESULTS of the three Tables, L, L. 2, and L. 3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table L.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 Years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table L. 2.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year. (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to 75. and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the period of 20 Years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table L. 3.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 75. and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 85.71, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the period of 20 Years.
YEAR.
1st SUPPOSITION.
2d SUPPOSITION.
3d SUPPOSITION.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which will be imposed subsequently to 1807, according to the proposed Plan.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which would have been imposed after 1807, if Loans were raised according to the present System.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes, which will have been imposed, subsequently to 1807, according to the proposed Plan.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which would have been imposed after 1807, if Loans were raised according to the present System.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which will have been imposed subsequently to 1807, according to the proposed Plan.
Total Amount in any given Year, of Taxes which would have been imposed after 1807, if Loans were raised according to the present System.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
Nil.
717,818
Nil.
717,818
Nil.
717,813
1808
Nil.
1,081,151
Nil.
1,044,478
Nil.
1,007,818
1809
Nil.
1,814,484
Nil.
1,741,138
Nil.
1,667,818
1810
293,000
2,547,817
230,000
2,401,154
Nil.
1,773,955
1811
586,000
3,281,150
460,000
3,061,170
Nil.
2,360,621
1812
879,000
4,014,483
690,000
3,684,521
Nil.
2,873,954
1813
1,172,000
4,747,816
920,000
4,307,872
Nil.
3,387,287
1814
1,465,000
5,481,149
1,150,000
4,414,009
Nil.
3,387,287
1815
1,758,000
6,214,482
1,380,000
5,000,675
Nil.
3,387,287
1816
2,051,000
6,947,815
1,610,000
5,587,341
Nil.
3,740,909
1817
As no new Taxes are required to be imposed in these Years, the Total remains the same.
7,681,148
As no new Taxes are required to be imposed in these Years, the Total remains the same.
6,174,007
275,836
4,180,909
1818
8,414,481
6,760,673
As no new Taxes are required to be imposed in these Years, the Total remains the same.
4,620,909
1819
9,147,814
7,347,339
5,060,909
1820
9,583,600
7,636,458
5,203,362
1821
10,316,933
8,223,124
5,643,362
1822
11,050,266
8,809,790
6,083,362
1823
11,783,599
9,396,456
6,523,362
1824
12,516,932
9,983,122
6,963,362
1825
13,250,265
10,569,788
7,403,362
1826
13,983,598
11,156,454
7,843,362
TABLE M.
Shewing,—1st, The Effect which the SINKING FUND of
£.
£.
1st.
The Amount of the Nominal Capital of Debt existing before 1792, which was redeemed by the Operation of the Sinking Fund under the Act of 1786, was on the 1st February 1802,
£.
The Total Amount of that Sinking Fund on the 1st February 1802, was,
2,534,187
2dly.
The Amount of the Nominal Capital of Debt created by all the Loans from the Year 1792 to the close of the last War in 1802, which was redeemed by the Operation of the Sinking Fund of One per Cent. under the Act of 1792, was, on the 1st May 1802,
£.
The Total Amount of that Sinking Fund, on the 1st May 1802, was
2,462,103
The Total Amount of all these Sinking Funds, on the 1st August 1802, after their Consolidation, was
5,706,017
3dly.
The Amount of the Nominal Capital of Debt which was redeemed by these Consolidated Sinking Funds, between the 1st February 1802, and the 1st November 1806, was
£.
The Amount to which the Consolidated Sinking Funds had arrived on the 1st November 1806, was
7,050,418
4thly.
The several Amounts of the respective Debts created by the Loans made since 1803, inclusive, which have been redeemed by their respective Sinking Funds of One per Cent. on the 1st November 1806, and the several Amounts of the said respective Sinking Funds at the same Period, are as follows, viz.
Amounts of the Nominal Capital of Debt redeemed 1 Nov. 1806.
Amounts of Sinking Funds on 1 Nov. 1806
Loan of 1803
£.
189,988
— of 1804
633,202
200,996
— of 1805
724,589
365,738
— of 1806
298,800
£.
1,055,522
Add, on account of additional Capitals created by Sums subscribed from 5 per Cents. 1797, into 3 per Cents. in 1805 and 1806
107,350
Add Sinking Fund, on account of this additional Capital created
54,652
£.
£.
TABLE N.
Shewing what would be the Amount of the whole PUBLIC DEBT at the Commencement of any given Year, if Eleven Millions were borrowed annually, on the present System, for Twenty Years of War; the Amount of the Sinking Fund which would in that case be applicable to the Extinction of such Debt, and the Proportion per Cent. which that Sinking Fund would bear to that Debt.—Also, shewing what would be the Amount of the whole Public Debt at the Commencement of any given Year, raising the Supplies for Twenty Years of War according to the proposed Plan; the combined Amount of all the Sinking Funds which would in that case be applicable to the Extinction of such Debt, and the Proportion per Cent. which that Sinking Fund would bear to that Debt.—The Three per Cents. supposed in both Cases to be at 60.
Present System.
Proposed Plan.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
YEAR.
DEBT which would, exist at the Commencement of each Year, if Eleven Millions were borrowed annually on the present System.
SINKING FUND which would be applicable in each Year to the Extinction of such Debt on the present System, supposing 3 per Cents. at 60.
Proportion per Cent. which the SINKING FUND, Column 3, bears to the Debt, Column 2.
Combined Debts, viz. War Debt, Supplementary Debt and present Debt, which would exist at the Commencement of each Year, according to the proposed Plan.
Combined SINKING FUND which would be applicable in each Year to the Extinction of such Debt, supposing 3 per Cents. at 60.
Proportion per Cent. which the SINKING FUND, Column 6, bears to the Debt, Column 5.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1807
363,793,722
8,515,042
2.34=2
6
9
364,993,722
8,935,042
2.44=2
8
9
1808
366,278,680
9,124,127
2.49=2
9
9
369,458,679
10,005,126
2.63=2
12
7
1809
368,154,553
9,763,666
2.65=2
13
0
374,053,533
11,148,714
2.98=2
19
7
1810
369,390,887
10,435,182
2.82=2
16
4
378,904,839
12,439,482
3.28=3
5
7
1811
369,955,705
11,140,274
3.01=3
0
2
384,065,357
13,888,120
3.61=3
12
2
1812
369,815,431
11,880,620
3.21=3
4
2
389,377,237
15,435,858
3.96=3
19
4
1813
368,934,811
12,657,984
3.43=3
8
7
394,741,379
17,087,649
4.32=4
6
4
1814
367,276,827
13,474,216
3.66=3
13
2
400,053,730
18,848,697
4.71=4
14
2
1815
364,802,611
14,331,259
3.92=3
18
4
405,205,033
20,724,463
5.11=5
2
2
1816
361,471,352
15,231,154
*
a
4
2
410,080,570
22,720,685
*
d
10
9
1817
357,240,198
16,176,044
4.52=4
10
4
414,559,885
24,096,718
5.81=5
16
2
1818
352,064,154
17,168,179
4.87=4
17
4
419,263,167
25,461,552
6.07=6
1
4
1819
345,895,975
18,209,920
5.26=5
5
2
424,201,615
26,814,628
6.32=6
6
4
1820
338,686,055
19,303,749
5.69=5
13
9
429,386,987
28,155,358
6.55=6
11
0
1821
330,382,306
20,452,269
6.19=6
3
9
433,231,629
27,963,124
6.45=6
9
0
1822
320,930,037
21,658,215
6.74=6
14
9
437,268,505
27,761,279
6.34=6
6
9
1823
310,271,822
22,924,458
7.38=7
7
7
441,507,226
27,549,341
6.23=6
4
7
1824
298,347,364
24,254,013
*
b
2
4
445,957,885
27,326,807
*
e
2
4
1825
285,093,351
25,650,046
8.99=8
19
9
450,631,078
27,093,146
6.01=6
0
2
1826
270,443,305
27,115,881
*
c
0
4
455,537,932
26,901,360
*
f
18
0
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
*
a
3.17=3
3
5 pr Ct.
*
d
3.85=3
17
0 pr Ct.
*
b
3.91=3
18
2
*
e
4.91=4
18
2
*
c
4.97=4
19
5
*
f
5.02=5
0
4
TABLE N. 2.
Shewing what would be the Amount of the whole PUBLIC DEBT at the Commencement of any given Year, if Eleven Millions were borrowed annually on the present System, for Twenty Years of War; the Amount of the Sinking Fund which would in that case be applicable to the Extinction of such Debt, and the Proportion per Cent. which that Sinking Fund would bear to that Debt. Also shewing what would be the Amount of the whole Public Debt at the Commencement of any given Year, raising the Supplies for Twenty Years of War according to the proposed Plan; the combined Amount of all the Sinking Funds which would in that case be applicable to the Extinction of such Debt, and the Proportion per Cent. which that Sinking Fund would bear to that Debt.—The Three per Cents. supposed to vary in the manner stated in Column 2 of this Table.
Present System.
Proposed Plan.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
YEAR.
Price of 3 per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest per Cent.
DEBT which would exist at the Commencement of each Year, if Eleven Millions were borrowed annually on the present System.
SINKING FUND which would be applicable in each Year to the Extinction of such Debt on the present system.
Proportion per Cent. which the SINKING FUND, Column 4, bear to the Debt column 3.
Combined Debts, viz. War Debt, Supplementary Debt, and present Debt, which would exist at the Commencement of each Year, according tot the proposed Plan.
Combined SINKING FUND which would be applicable in each Year to the Extinction of such Debt.
Proportion per Cent. which the SINKING FUND, Column 7 bears to the Debt, Column 6.
£.
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
1807
60. =5
363,793,722
8,515,042
2.34=2
6
9
364,993,722
8,935,042
2.44=2
8
9
1808
63.16=4¾
382,448,456
9,114,954
2.38=2
7
7
385,669,508
10,033,958
2.60=2
12
0
1809
384,333,502
9,722,074
2.52=2
10
4
390,235,550
11,181,735
2.86=2
17
4
1810
66.66=4½
403,753,566
10,348,888
2.56=2
11
2
413,442,752
12,512,869
3.02=3
0
4
1811
404,404,678
10,979,603
2.71=2
14
2
418,529,883
13,979,949
3.34=3
6
9
1812
70.58=4¼
424,741,083
11,629,536
2.73=2
14
7
444,720,344
15,574,383
3.50=3
10
0
1813
424,111,547
12,279,642
2.89=2
17
9
449,945,961
17,224,300
3.82=3
16
4
1814
75. =4
445,568,090
12,948,192
2.90=2
18
0
479,163,455
19,001,664
3.96=3
19
2
1815
And to continue at that rate throughout the rest of this period of 20 Years.
443,619,898
13,612,785
3.06=3
1
2
484,161,791
20,828,395
4.30=4
6
0
1816
441,007,113
14,303,962
*
a
4
9
488,933,396
22,749,529
*
d
13
0
1817
437,703,151
15,022,786
3.43=3
8
7
493,383,867
24,629,857
4.99=4
19
9
1818
433,680,365
15,770,363
3.63=3
12
7
497,554,010
26,063,050
5.23=5
4
7
1819
428,910,002
16,547,843
3.85=3
17
0
501,890,960
27,489,570
5.47=5
9
4
1820
423,362,159
17,356,422
4.09=4
1
9
506,401,390
28,909,151
5.70=5
14
0
1821
417,005,737
18,197,344
4.36=4
7
2
509,492,239
28,785,516
5.64=5
12
9
1822
409,808,393
19,071,903
4.65=4
13
0
512,706,723
28,656,935
5.58=5
11
7
1823
401,736,490
19,981,445
4.97=4
19
4
516,049,788
28,523,211
5.52=5
10
4
1824
392,755,045
20,927,368
*
b
6
4
519,526,577
28,384,137
*
e
9
2
1825
382,827,677
21,911,128
5.72=5
14
4
523,142,440
28,301,177
5.40=5
8
0
1826
371,916,549
22,934,239
*
c
3
2
526,841,263
28,282,707
*
f
7
2
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
*
a
2.73=2
14
7 per Ct.
*
d
2.98=2
19
7 per Ct.
*
b
3.42=3
8
4 per Ct.
*
e
4.03=4
0
7
*
c
3.6_=3
13
4
*
f
4.17=4
3
4
The Note
a
TABLE N. 3.
Shewing what would be the Amount of the whole Public Debt at the Commencement of any given Year, if Eleven Millions were borrowed annually on the present System, for Twenty Years of War; the Amount of the Sinking Fund which would in that case be applicable to the Extinction of such Debt, and the Proportion per Cent. which that Sinking Fund Would bear to that Debt. Also shewing what would be the Amount of the whole Public Debt at the Commencement of any given Year, raising the Supplies for Twenty Years or War according to the proposed Plan; the combined Amount of all the Sinking Funds which would in that case be applicable to the Extinction of such Debt, and the Proportion per Cent. which that Sinking Fund would bear to that Debt. The Three per Cents. supposed to vary in the manner stated in Column 2 of this Table.
Present System.
Proposed Plan.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
YEAR.
Price of 3 per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest per Cent.
DEBT which would exist at the Commencement of each Year, if Eleven Millions were borrowed annually on the present System.
SINKING FUND which would be applicable in each Year to the Extinction of such Debt on the present system.
Proportion per Cent. which the SINKING FUND, Column 4, bears to the Debt column 3.
Combined Debts, viz. War Debt, Supplementary Debt, and present Debt, which would exist at the Commencement of each Year, according to the proposed Plan.
Combined SINKING FUND, which would be applicable in each Year to the Extinction of such Debt.
Proportion per Cent. which the SINKING FUND, Column 7 bears to the Debt, Column 6.
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
1807
60. =5
363,793,722
8,515,042
2.34=2
6
9
364,993,722
8,935,042
2.43=2
8
7
1808
66.66=4½
405,754,088
9,105,794
2.24=2
4
9
403,681,539
10,063,795
2.49=2
9
9
1809
407,648,294
9,680,554
2.37=2
7
4
408,218,744
11,314,623
2.77=2
15
4
1810
75. =4
458,713,707
10,262,844
2.23=2
4
7
456,510,519
12,690,446
2.77=2
15
4
1811
459,450,863
10,820,023
2.35=2
7
0
461,420,073
14,179,396
3.07=3
1
4
1812
85.71=3½
523,720,960
11,381,156
2.17=2
3
4
516,780,685
15,823,905
3.06=3
1
2
1813
523,339,804
11,907,829
2.27=2
5
4
521,156,780
17,472,742
3.34=3
6
9
1814
Par =3
607,658,970
12,434,603
2.04=2
0
9
594,921,274
19,268,286
3.23=3
4
7
1815
606,224,367
12,917,641
2.13=2
2
7
599,652,988
21,046,334
3.5 =3
10
0
1816
604,306,726
13,415,170
*
a
4
4
604,206,654
22,893,723
*
d
15
7
1817
601,891,556
13,927,625
2.31=2
6
2
608,512,931
24,812,533
4.07=4
1
4
1818
598,963,931
14,455,453
2.41=2
8
2
612,500,398
26,292,908
4.29=4
5
9
1819
595,508,478
14,999,116
2.51=2
10
2
616,607,490
27,769,694
4.5 =4
10
0
1820
591,509,362
15,559,089
2.63=2
12
7
620,837,796
29,242,784
4.71=4
14
2
1821
586,950,273
16,135,861
2.74=2
14
9
623,595,012
29,160,066
_.67=4
13
4
1822
581,814,412
16,729,936
2.87=2
17
4
626,434,946
29,074,866
4.64=4
12
9
1823
576,084,476
17,341,834
3.01=3
0
2
629,360,080
29,128,504
4.62=4
12
4
1824
569,742,642
17,972,089
*
b
3
0
632,231,576
29,142,690
*
e
12
0
1825
562,770,553
18,621,251
3.3 =3
6
0
635,088,886
29,095,890
4.58=4
11
7
1826
555,149,302
19,289,888
*
c
9
4
637,992,996
29,065,719
*
f
11
0
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
*
a
2.23=2
4
7 per Ct.
*
d
3.02=3
0
4 pr Ct.
*
b
2.44=2
8
9 per Ct.
*
e
3.68=3
13
7
*
c
2.53=2
10
7
*
f
3.77=3
15
4
The Note
a
TABLE N. 4.
Shewing at one View the different RESULTS of the Three Tables, N, N. 2, & N. 3.
1st-SUPPOSITION—Table N.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 Years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table N. 2.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to 75. and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the period of 20 Years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Tab_e N. 3.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 69.; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 75, and so to continue for two Years, viz. 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 85.71; and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
YEAR.
1st SUPPOSITION.
2d SUPPOSITION.
3d SUPPOSITION.
Proportion per Cent. which the SINKING FUND on the present System, would bear to the Debt.
Proportion per Cent. which the proposed SINKING FUND will bear to the Debt.
Proportion per Cent. which the SINKING FUND on the present System would bear to the Debt.
Proportion per Cent. which the proposed SINKING FUND will bear to the Debt.
Proportion per Cent. which the SINKING FUND on the present System, would bear to the Debt.
Proportion per Cent. which the proposed SINKING FUND will bear to the Debt.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1807
2.34=2
6
9
2.44=2
8
9
2.34=2
6
9
2.44=2
8
9
2.34=2
6
9
2.43=2
8
7
1808
2.49=2
9
9
2.63=2
12
7
2.38=2
7
7
2.60=2
12
6
2.24=2
4
9
2.49=2
9
9
1809
2.65=2
13
0
2.98=2
19
7
2.52=2
10
4
2.86=2
17
4
2.37=2
7
4
2.77=2
15
4
1810
2.82=2
16
4
3.28=3
5
7
2.56=2
11
2
3.02=3
0
4
2.23=2
4
7
2.77=2
15
4
1811
3.01=3
0
2
3.61=3
12
2
2.71=2
14
2
3.34=3
6
9
2.35=2
7
0
3.07=3
1
4
1812
3.21=3
4
2
3.96=3
19
4
2.73=2
14
7
3.50=3
10
0
2.17=2
3
4
3.06=3
1
2
1813
3.43=3
8
7
4.32=4
6
4
2.89=2
17
9
3.82=3
16
4
2.27=2
5
4
3.34=3
6
9
1814
3.66=3
13
2
4.71=4
14
2
2.90=2
18
0
3.96=3
19
2
2.04=2
0
9
3.23=3
4
7
1815
3.92=3
18
4
5.11=5
2
2
3.06=3
1
2
4.30=4
6
0
2.13=2
2
7
3.5 =3
10
0
1816
4.21=4
4
2
5.54=5
10
9
3.24=3
4
9
4.65=4
13
0
2.22=2
4
4
3.78=5
15
7
1817
4.52=4
10
4
5.81=5
16
2
3.43=3
8
7
4.99=4
19
9
2.31=2
6
2
4.07=4
1
4
1818
4.87=4
17
4
6.07=6
1
4
3.63=3
12
7
5.23=5
4
7
2.41=2
8
2
4.29=4
5
9
1819
5.26=5
5
2
6.32=6
6
4
3.85=3
17
0
5.47=5
9
4
2.51=2
10
2
4.5 =4
10
0
1820
5.69=5
13
9
6.55=6
11
0
4.09=4
1
9
5.70=5
14
0
2.63=2
12
7
4.71=4
14
2
1821
6.19=6
3
9
6.45=6
9
0
4.36=4
7
2
5.64=5
12
9
2.74=2
14
9
4.67=4
13
4
1822
6.74=6
14
9
6.34=6
6
9
4.65=4
13
0
5.58=5
11
7
2.87=2
17
4
4.64=4
12
9
1823
7.38=7
7
7
6.23=6
4
7
4.97=4
19
4
5.52=5
10
4
3.01=3
0
2
4.62=4
12
4
1824
8.12=3
2
4
6.12=6
2
4
5.32=5
6
4
5.46=5
9
2
3.15=3
3
0
4.6=4
12
0
1825
8.99=8
19
9
6.01=6
0
2
5.72=5
14
4
5.40=5
8
0
3.3=3
6
0
4.58=4
11
7
1826
10.02=10
0
4
5.90 =6
18
0
6.16=6
3
2
5.36=5
7
2
3.47=3
9
4
4.55=4
11
0
TABLE O.
Shewing, The Total Amount of Money Capital of Debt, which would have been redeemed at any given Periods of the Continuance of War for Twenty Years, if Eleven Millions were borrowed annually according to the present System, the Three per Cents. being supposed to continue at 60. And also, the Total Amount of Money Capital of Debt, which will have been redeemed at the corresponding Periods, and in the same Suppositions, according to the proposed Plan.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of the Money Capital of Debt, which would have been redeemed in each Year, according to the present System.
Amount of the Money Capital of Debt, which will be redeemed in each Year, according to the proposed Plan.
Total Amount of Debt, which would have been redeemed at any given Periods, according to the present System.
Total Amount of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods, according to the proposed Plan.
Larger Amounts of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods by the proposed Plan, than by the present System.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
8,515,042
8,935,042
8,515,042
8,935,042
420,000
1808
9,124,127
10,005,126
17,639,169
18,940,168
1,300,999
1809
9,763,666
11,148,714
27,402,835
30,088,882
2,686,047
1810
10,435,182
12,439,482
37,838,017
42,528,364
4,690,347
1811
11,140,274
13,888,120
48,978,291
56,416,484
7,438,193
1812
11,880,620
15,435,858
60,858,911
71,852,342
10,993,431
1813
12,657,984
17,087,649
73,516,895
88,939,991
15,423,096
1814
13,474,216
18,848,697
86,991,111
107,788,688
20,797,577
1815
14,331,259
20,724,463
101,322,370
128,513,151
27,190,781
1816
15,231,154
22,720,685
116,553,524
151,233,836
34,680,312
1817
16,176,044
24,096,718
132,729,568
175,330,554
42,600,986
1818
17,168,179
25,461,552
149,897,747
200,792,106
50,894,359
1819
18,209,920
26,814,628
168,107,667
227,606,734
59,499,067
1820
19,303,749
28,155,358
187,411,416
255,762,092
68,350,676
1821
20,452,269
27,963,124
207,863,685
283,725,216
75,861,531
1822
21,658,215
27,761,279
229,521,900
311,486,495
81,964,595
1823
22,924,458
27,549,341
252,446,358
339,035,836
86,589,478
1824
24,254,013
27,326,807
276,700,371
*366,362,643
89,662,272
1825
25,650,046
27,093,146
302,350,417
393,455,789
91,105,372
1826
27,115,881
26,901,360
*329,466,298
420,357,149
90,890,851
* The amount of the money capital of the present debt, calculating the Three per Cents. at 60, is 352,793,722
l
TABLE O. 2.
Shewing, The Total Amount of MONEY CAPITAL OF DEBT, which would have been redeemed at any given Periods of the Continuance of War for Twenty Years, if Eleven Millions were borrowed annually according to the present System. The Three per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for 2 Years (1808 and 1809); then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for 2 Years (viz. 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for 2 Years (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to 75, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years. And also, the Total Amount of Money Capital of Debt, which will have been redeemed at the corresponding Periods, and on the same Suppositions, according to the proposed Plan.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of the Money Capital of Debt, which would have been redeemed in each Year, according to the present System.
Amount of the Money Capital of Debt, which will be redeemed in each Year, according to the proposed Plan.
Total Amount of Debt, which would have been redeemed at any given Periods, according to the present System.
Total Amount of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods, according to the proposed Plan.
Larger Amounts of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods by the proposed Plan, than by the present System.
£
£
£
£
£
1807
8,515,042
8,935,042
8,515,042
8,935,042
420,000
1808
9,114,354
10,033,958
17,629,996
18,969,000
1,339,004
1809
9,722,074
11,181,735
27,352,070
30,150,735
2,798,665
1810
10,348,388
12,512,869
37,700,958
42,663,604
4,962,646
1811
10,979,603
13,979,949
48,680,561
56,643,553
7,962,992
1812
11,629,536
15,574,383
60,310,097
72,217,936
11,907,839
1813
12,279,642
17,224,300
72,589,739
89,442,236
16,852,497
1814
12,948,192
19,001,664
85,537,931
108,443,900
22,905,969
1815
13,612,785
20,828,395
99,150,716
129,272,295
30,121,579
1816
14,303,962
22,749,529
113,454,678
152,021,824
38,567,146
1817
15,022,786
24,629,857
128,477,464
176,651,681
48,174,217
1818
15,770,363
26,063,050
144,247,827
202,714,731
58,466,904
1819
16,547,843
27,489,570
160,795,670
230,204,301
69,408,631
1820
17,356,422
28,909,151
178,152,092
259,113,452
80,961,360
1821
18,197,344
28,785,516
196,349,436
287,898,968
91,549,532
1822
19,071,903
28,656,935
215,421,339
316,555,903
101,134,564
1823
19,981,445
23,523,211
235,402,784
345,079,114
109,676,330
1824
20,927,368
28,384,137
256,330,152
373,463,251
117,133,099
1825
21,911,128
28,301,177
278,241,230
401,764,428
123,523,148
1826
22,934,239
28,282,707
301,175,519
430,047,135
128,871,616
TABLE O. 3.
Shewing the Total Amount of MONEY CAPITAL OF DEBT which would have been redeemed at any given periods of the Continuance of War for Twenty Years, if 11 Millions were borrowed annually according to the present System. The Three per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for 2 Years (1808 and 1809); then to rise to 75, and so to continue for 2 Years (viz. 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 85.71, and so to continue for 2 Years (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years: And also the Total Amount of Money Capital of Debt which will have been redeemed at the corresponding Periods, and on the same Suppositions according to the proposed Plan.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of the Money Capital of Debt, which would have been redeemed in each Year, according to the present System.
Amount of the Money Capital of Debt, which will be redeemed in each Year, according to the proposed Plan.
Total Amount of Debt which would have been redeemed at any given Periods, according to the present System.
Total Amount of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods, according to the proposed Plan.
Larger Amounts of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods, by the proposed Plan, than by the present System.
£
£
£
£
£
1807
8,515,042
8,935,042
8,515,042
8,935,042
420,000
1808
9,105,794
10,063,795
17,620,836
18,998,837
1,378,001
1809
9,680,554
11,314,623
27,301,390
30,313,460
3,012,070
1810
10,262,844
12,690,446
37,564,234
43,003,906
5,439,672
1811
10,820,023
14,179,396
48,384,257
57,183,302
8,799,045
1812
11,381,156
15,823,905
59,765,413
73,007,207
13,241,794
1813
11,907,829
17,472,742
71,673,242
90,479,949
18,806,707
1814
12,434,603
19,268,286
84,107,845
109,748,235
25,640,390
1815
12,917,641
21,046,334
97,025,486
130,794,569
33,769,083
1816
13,415,170
22,893,723
110,440,656
153,688,292
43,247,636
1817
13,927,625
24,812,533
124,368,281
178,500,825
54,132,544
1818
14,455,453
26,292,908
138,823,734
204,793,733
65,969,999
1819
14,999,116
27,769,694
153,822,850
232,563,427
78,740,577
1820
15,559,089
29,242,784
169,381,939
261,806,211
92,424,272
1821
16,135,861
29,160,066
185,517,800
290,966,277
105,448,477
1822
16,729,936
29,074,866
202,247,736
320,041,143
117,793,407
1823
17,341,834
29,128,504
219,589,570
349,169,647
129,580,077
1824
17,972,089
29,142,690
237,561,659
378,312,337
140,750,678
1825
18,621,251
29,095,890
256,182,910
407,408,227
151,225,317
1826
19,289,888
29,065,719
275,472,098
436,473,946
161,001,148
TABLE O. 4.
Shewing at one View the different RESULTS of the Three Tables, O, O. 2, & O. 3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table O.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 Years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table O. 2—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 75.58, and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to 75, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the period of 20 Years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table O 3.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years (viz. 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 75, and so to continue for two Years (viz. 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 85.71; and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then, (viz. in 1814), to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
YEAR.
1st SUPPOSITION.
2d SUPPOSITION.
3d SUPPOSITION.
Total Amount of Debt, which would have been redeemed at any given Periods, according to the present System.
Total Amount of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods, according to the proposed Plan.
Larger Amounts of Debt which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods by the proposed Plan, than by the present System.
Total Amount of Debt, which would have been redeemed at any given Periods, according to the present System.
Total Amount of Debt which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods, according to the proposed Plan.
Larger Amounts of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods by the proposed Plan than by the present System.
Total Amount of Debt, which would have been redeemed at any given Periods, according to the present System.
Total Amount of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods, according to the proposed Plan.
Larger Amounts of Debt, which will have been redeemed at corresponding Periods by the proposed Plan than by the present System.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
8,515,042
8,935,042
420,000
8,515,042
8,935,042
420,000
8,515,042
8,935,042
420,000
1808
17,639,169
18,940,168
1,300,999
17,629,996
18,969,000
1,339,004
17,620,836
18,998,837
1,378,001
1809
27,402,835
30,088,882
2,686,047
27,352,070
30,150,735
2,798,665
27,301,390
30,313,460
3,012,070
1810
37,838,017
42,528,364
4,690,347
37,700,958
42,663,604
4,962,646
37,564,234
43,003,906
5,439,672
1811
48,978,291
56,416,484
7,438,193
48,680,561
56,643,553
7,962,992
48,384,257
57,183,302
8,799,045
1812
60,858,911
71,852,342
10,993,431
60,310,097
72,217,936
11,907,839
59,765,413
73,007,207
13,241,794
1813
73,516,895
88,939,991
15,423,096
72,589,739
89,442,236
16,852,497
71,673,242
90,479,949
18,806,707
1814
86,991,111
107,788,688
20,797,577
85,537,931
108,443,900
22,905,969
84,107,845
109,748,235
25,640,390
1815
101,322,370
128,513,151
27,190,781
99,150,716
129,272,295
30,121,579
97,025,486
130,794,569
33,769,083
1816
116,553,524
151,233,836
34,680,312
113,454,678
152,021,824
38,567,146
110,440,656
153,688,292
43,247,636
1817
132,729,568
175,330,554
42,600,986
128,477,464
176,651,681
48,174,217
124,368,281
178,500,825
54,132,544
1818
149,897,747
200,792,106
50,894,359
144,247,827
202,714,731
58,466,904
138,823,734
204,793,733
65,969,999
1819
168,107,667
227,606,734
59,499,067
160,795,670
230,204,301
69,408,631
153,822,850
232,563,427
78,740,577
1820
187,411,416
255,762,092
68,350,676
178,152,092
259,113,452
80,961,360
169,381,939
261,806,211
92,424,272
1821
207,863,685
283,725,216
75,861,531
196,349,436
287,898,968
91,549,532
185,517,800
290,966,277
105,448,477
1822
229,521,900
311,486,495
81,964,595
215,421,339
316,555,903
101,134,564
202,247,736
320,041,143
117,793,407
1823
252,446,358
339,035,836
86,589,478
235,402,784
345,079,114
109,676,330
219,589,570
349,169,647
129,580,077
1824
276,700,371
366,362,643
89,662,272
256,330,152
373,463,251
117,133,099
237,561,659
378,312,337
140,750,678
1825
302,350,417
393,455,789
91,105,372
278,241,280
461,764,428
123,523,148
256,182,910
407,408,227
151,225,317
1826
329,466,298
420,357,149
90,890,851
301,175,519
430,047,135
128,871,616
275,472,798
436,473,946
161,001,148
TABLE P.
Shewing the PERIODS at which an Amount equal to all future Loans to be raised according to the proposed Plan, during the continuance of War for 20 Years, would be redeemed, on various Suppositions of the Prices of The 3 per Cent. Stocks; and according to two different Modes of Application of the Sinking Fund at the end of those 20 Years.
The Sinking Fund of the War Debt and of the present Debt are supposed to be consolidated at the end of 20 Years; and the Excesses of the combined Sinking Funds (see Tables F.& H.) above the Interest of the Combined Debts, are supposed to be placed at the Disposal of Parliament; and the residue of the combined Sinking Fund [Column 2] to be applied thenceforth in the Redemption of the Combined Debt [Column 1.]; and the Sinking Fund of the Supplementary Debt [Column 4.] to be thenceforth applied in the Redemption of that Debt [Column 3.]
SUPPOSITIONS OF THE PRICES OF 3 PER CENT. STOCKS.
[COLUMN 1.]
[COLUMN 2.]
[COLUMN 3.]
[COLUMN 4.]
The combined Amount of the Money Capital of the War Debt which will remain unredeemed at the Close of the Year 1826.
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the Combined Debt [Col. 1.] after deducting th Excess above the Interest of those Debts
Amount of the Money Capital of the Supplementary Debt, which will remain unredeemed at the Close of the Year 1826
Amount of the Sinking Fund of the Debt, [Col. 3] at the Close of the Year 1826
£
£
£
£
1st.
Three Per Cents. supposed to be at 60 at the close of the Year 1826, and so to continue
253,442,093
12,672,104
175,194,479
4,853,593
2d.
Three Per Cents. supposed to be at 60 at the close of the Year 1826, and then to rise to, and .continue at 75
304,789,383
12,672,104
218,993,098
4,853,593
3d.
Three Per Cents. supposed to be at 60 at the Close of the Year 1826, and then to rise to, and continue at, Par
359,163,078
12,672,104
291,990,798
4,853,593
1st Supposition 3 Per Cents, 60.
2d Supposition 3 Per Cents, 75.
3d Supposition 3 Per Cents, Par.
FIRST.—Application of The Sinking Fund accumulating at
Compound Interest.
The Combined Sinking Fund [Col. 2.] will, at Compound Interest, redeem the Combined Debt [Col. 1.] in
14 Years
18 Years
24 Years
from the Year 1826.
The Sinking Fund [Col. 4.] of the Supplementary Debt [Col. 3.] will, at
Compound Interest
Therefore,
21 Years
27 Years
35 Years
The Excesses of the combined Sinking Fund,[Col. 2.] might be applied to the public Service for
31 Years (or till 1857)
27 Years (or till 1853)
21 Years (or till 1837)
from 1826; and still the whole Debt [Col. 1.] would be redeemed in 45 years from that period.
And the Excesses of the Supplementary Sinking Fund, [Col. 4.] which will arise in
7 Years (or in 1833)
9 Years (or in 1835)
11 Years (or till 1837)
from 1826;— might
might be applied to the public Service for
24 years (or till 1857)
18 Years (or till 1853)
10 Years (or till 1847)
from the said respective Periods in which they will arise; and still the whole Debt [Col. 3.] would be redeemed in 45 years from 1826.
SECONDLY:—Application of The Sinking Fund, NOT at
Compound Interest.
The Combined Sinking Fund, [Col. 2.] if applied
not at Compound Interest
purchase of an equal Amount of Debt
20 Years.
24 Years
28 Years
from 1826: Therefore, an amount of Taxes equal to the interest of the Sums redeemed by this Sinking Fund might be annually set free throughout the whole of those periods.
The Sinking Fund [Col. 4.] of the Supplementary Debt, [Col. 3 ] applied in the same manner would redeem that Debt in
36 Years
45 Years
*60 Years
from 1826: And an amount of Taxes equal to the Interest of the Sums redeemed by this Sinking Fund, might, under the 1st and 2d Suppositions, be annually set free throughout the whole of those periods.
* Note.—Supposing The 3 Per Cents. to be at Par, it will be obvious that this 2d Mode of Application of the Sinking Fund [Col. 4.] would not be in conformity to the Principle of Redemption within 45 Years, established by the Acts of 1792 and 1802; and therefore could not be adopted in that Supposition of the Price of the 3 Per Cents.
Or
Both Sinking Funds [Col. 2 and 4,] might be applied in the Redemption of Debt at
Compound Interest
25 Years (or till 1851)
20 Years (or till 1846)
12 Years (or till 1838)
from 1826: And the Excesses of the Sinking Fund [Col.2.] above the Interest, might be taken in each Year of those Periods; and the Excesses of the Sinking Fund, [Co1.4.] might be taken in each year of those Periods after such last mentioned Excesses shall arise:—
And
Then
Both Sinking Funds might be applied merely in the purchase of an equal Amount of Debt in each Year, and still the whole of the Debts [Col. 1. and 3.] would be redeemed in 45 Years from 1826; and during the last
20 Years
25 Years
33 Years
of those 45 Years, an Amount of Taxes equal to the Interest of the Debt redeemed in each year, might be annually set free.
TABLE Q*.
Shewing the Amount of WAR TAXES that may be released at the end of any given Year, after the Year 1815, (supposing Peace to take place in any such Year,) by the Application of the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund alone, added to what will fall in by the Operation of the revolving Series of Fourteen Years: the 3 per Cents. supposed to continue at 60.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR, Commencing
Amount of War Taxes which will have been pledged in the previous Years of War.
Amount of War Taxes which will be released in any given Year of Peace, by the Extinction of the Debt created by the Loan of the 14th preceding Year.
Total Excesses of the present Sinking Fund, which may in any given Year of Peace be applied to the Release of the War Taxes.
Total Amount of the War Taxes which may be repealed (both by the Extinction of Debt, and by the Application of the Excesses of the Sinking Fund), in any given Year, if Peace shall then take place.
£.
£.
£.
£.
5 January, 1807
1,200,000
19,800,000
5 January, 1808
2,400,000
18,600,000
5 January, 1809
3,600,000
17,400,000
5 January, 1810
5,000,000
16,000,000
5 January, 1811
6,600,000
14,400,000
5 January, 1812
8,200,000
12,800,000
5 January, 1813
9,800,000
11,200,000
5 January, 1814
11,400,000
9,600,000
5 January, 1815
13,000,000
8,000,000
5 January, 1816
14,600,000
1,171,551
7,571,551
5 January, 1817
16,200,000
1,707,366
6,507,366
5 January, 1818
17,800,000
2,115,303
5,315,303
5 January, 1819
19,400,000
2,383,637
3,983,637
5 January, 1820
21,000,000
1,200,000
2,500,056
3,700,056
5 January, 1821
21,000,000
1,200,000
2,275,628
3,475,628
5 January, 1822
21,000,000
1,200,000
1,973,312
3,173,312
5 January, 1823
21,000,000
1,400,000
1,589,213
2,989,213
5 January, 1824
21,000,000
1,600,000
1,265,909
2,865,909
5 January, 1825
21,000,000
1,600,000
1,013,108
2,613,108
5 January, 1826
21,000,000
1,600,000
753,247
2,353,247
* Note—In this Table, no credit is taken for the annuities which will expire in 1808, and in 1820.
TABLE Q. 2.*
Shewing the Amount of WAR TAXES that may be released at the end of any given Year, after the Year 1815, (supposing Peace to take place in any such Year,) by the Application of the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund alone, added to what will fall in by the Operation of the revolving Series of Fourteen Years: the 3 per Cents. supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to 75, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the period of 20 Years.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of War Taxes which will have been pledged in the previous Years of War.
Amount of War Taxes which will be released, in any given Year of Peace, by the Extinction of the Debt created by the Loan of the 14th preceding Year.
Total Excesses of the present Sinking Fund which may, in any given Year of Peace, be applied to the Release of the War Taxes.
Total Amount of the War Taxes which may be repealed (both by the Extinction of Debt, and by the Application of the Excesses of the Sinking Fund) in any given Year, if Peace shall then take place.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
1,200,000
19,800,000
1808
2,400,000
18,600,000
1809
3,600,000
17,400,000
1810
5,000,000
16,000,000
1811
6,600,000
14,400,000
1812
8,200,000
12,800,000
1813
9,800,000
11,200,000
1814
11,400,000
9,600,000
1815
13,000,000
8,000,000
1816
14,600,000
138,984
6,538,934
1817
16,200,000
1,014,075
5,814,075
1818
17,800,000
1,331,433
4,531,433
1819
19,400,000
1,542,018
3,142,018
1820
21,000,000
1,200,000
1,638,147
2,838,147
1821
21,000,000
1,200,000
1,473,588
2,673,588
1822
21,000,000
1,200,000
1,259,780
2,459,780
1823
21,000,000
1,400,000
994,753
2,394,753
1824
21,000,000
1,600,000
791,657
2,391,657
1825
21,000,000
1,600,000
723,849
2,323,849
1826
21,000,000
1,600,000
694,894
2,294,894
* Note—In this Table, no credit is taken for the annuities which will expire in 1808, and in 1820; nor for the sum which would arise from the reduction of the 5 per Cent. to a 4 per Cent. Fund.
TABLE Q. 3.*
Shewing the Amount of WAR TAXES that may be released at the end any given Year, after the Year 1815, (supposing Peace to take place in any such Year,) by the Application of the Excesses of the present Sinking Fund alone, added to what will fall in by the Operation of the revolving Series of Fourteen Years. The 3 per Cents. supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60; then to rise to 66.66. and so to continue for 2 Years (viz. during 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 75, and so to continue for 2 Years (viz. during 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 85.71, and so to continue for 2 Years (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the Period of 20 Years.
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
YEAR.
Amount of War Taxes which will have been pledged in the previous Years of War.
Amount of War Taxes which will be released, in any given Year of Peace, by the Extinction of the Debt created by the Loan of the 14th preceding Year.
Total Excesses of the present Sinking Fund, which may, in any given Year of Peace, be applied to the Release of the War Taxes.
Total Amount of the War Taxes which may be repealed (both by the Extinction of Debt, and by the Application of the Excesses of the Sinking Fund), in any given Year, if Peace shall then take place.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1807
1,200,000
19,800,000
1808
2,400,000
18,600,000
1809
3,600,000
17,400,000
1810
5,000,000
16,000,000
1811
6,600,000
14,400,000
1812
8,200,000
12,800,000
1813
9,800,000
11,200,000
1814
11,400,000
9,600,000
1815
13,000,000
8,000,000
1816
14,600,000
6,400,000
1817
16,300,000
546,506
5,346,506
1818
17,800,000
759,449
3,959,449
1819
19,400,000
895,579
2,495,579
1820
21,000,000
1,200,000
950,674
2,150,674
1821
21,000,000
1,200,000
818,621
2,018,621
1822
21,000,000
1,200,000
658,607
1,858,607
1823
21,000,000
1,400,000
619,668
2,019,668
1824
21,000,000
1,600,000
601,079
2,201,079
1825
21,000,000
1,600,000
583,046
2,183,046
1826
21,000,000
1,600,000
565,555
2,165,555
* Note—In this Table, no credit is taken for the annuities which will expire in 1808, and in 1820; nor for the sums which would arise from the reduction of the 5 to a 4 per Cent. Fund, and afterwards of the 4 to a 3 per Cent. Fund.
TABLE Q. 4.
Shewing at one View the different RESULTS of the three Tables, Q, Q. 2, & Q. 3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table Q.
The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 Years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table Q. 2.
The 3-per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years, (viz. during 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, (viz. 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years, (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to 75, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the period of 20 Years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table Q. 3.
The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1808 and 1809); then to rise to 75. and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1810 and 1811); then to rise to 85.71, and so to continue for two Years (viz. during 1812 and 1813); and then (viz. in 1814) to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the period of 20 Years.
YEAR.
1st SUPPOSITION. Total Amount of the War Taxes which may be repealed (both by the Extinction of Debt, and by the Application of the Excesses of the Sinking Fund) in any given Year, if Peace shall then take place.
2d SUPPOSITION. Total Amount of the War Taxes which may be repealed (both by the Extinction of Debt, and by the Application of the Excess_s of the Sinking Fund) in any given Year, if Peace shall then take place.
3d SUPPOSITION. Total Amount of the War Taxes which may be repealed (both by the Extinction of Debt, and by the Application of the Excesses of the Sinking Fund) in any given Year, if Peace shall then take place.
£.
£.
£.
1807
19,800,000
19,800,000
19,800,000
1808
18,600,000
18,600,000
18,600,000
1809
17,400,000
17,400,000
17,400,000
1810
16,000,000
16,000,000
16,000,000
1811
14,400,000
14,400,000
14,400,000
1812
12,800,000
12,800,000
12,800,000
1813
11,200,000
11,200,000
11,200,000
1814
9,600,000
9,600,000
9,600,000
1815
8,000,000
8,000,000
8,000,000
1816
7,571,551
6,538,984
6,400,000
1817
6,507,366
5,814,075
5,346,506
1818
5,315,303
4,531,433
3,959,449
1819
3,983,637
3,142,018
2,495,579
1820
3,700,056
2,838,147
2,150,674
1821
3,475,628
2,673,588
2,018,621
1822
3,173,312
2,459,780
1,858,607
1823
2,989,213
2,394,753
2,019,668
1824
2,865,909
2,391,657
2,201,079
1825
2,613,108
2,323,849
2,183,046
1826
2,353,247
2,294,894
2,165,555
TABLE R.
Shewing, the Amount of WAR TAXES which would be released at the End of any given Year, when Peace might take place, if the Principle of rendering disposable the Excess of the Sinking Fund above the Interest of the Debt were applied, on the return of Peace, to the Debt charged on the War Taxes, as well as to the present Debt; and, in that Event, shewing how much of the Property Tax would remain pledged at the End of any given Year; supposing the other War Taxes, exclusive of the Property Tax, to produce
£
£
£
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
YEAR.
Excess of Sinking Fund above the Interest of the Debt charged on the War Taxes.
Total Excess of the present Sinking Fund which might, in any given year of Peace, be applied to the Release of the War Taxes.
Total Excess of both Sinking Funds, above the Interest of both Debts.
War Taxes which would remain pledged after deducting the Excesses.
War Taxes which might be released at the End of any given Year
Amount of the Property Tax, taken at
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
1807
60,000
-
60,000
1,140,000
19,860,000
Nil.
1808
183,000
-
183,000
2,217,000
18,783,000
Nil.
1809
372,150
-
372,150
3,227,850
17,772,150
Nil.
1810
640,757
-
640,757
4,359,243
16,640,757
Nil.
1811
1,002,794
-
1,002,794
5,597,206
15,402,794
Nil.
1812
1,462,933
-
1,462,933
6,737,067
14,262,933
Nil.
1813
2,026,079
-
2,026,079
7,773,921
13,226,079
Nil.
1814
2,697,382
-
2,697,382
8,702,618
12,297,382
Nil.
1815
3,482,251
-
3,482,251
9,517,749
11,482,251
Nil.
1816
4,386,363
1,171,551
5,557,914
9,042,086
11,957,914
Nil.
1817
5,415,680
1,707,366
7,123,046
9,076,954
11,923,046
Nil.
1818
6,576,462
2,115,303
8,691,765
9,108,235
11,891,765
Nil.
1819
7,875,285
2,383,637
10,258,922
9,141,078
11,858,922
Nil.
1820
9,319,048
2,500,056
11,819,104
9,180,896
11,819,104
Nil.
1821
9,575,000
2,275,628
11,850,628
9,149,372
11,850,628
822
9,843,749
1,973,312
11,817,061
9,182,939
11,817,068
Nil.
1823
10,125,935
1,589,213
11,715,148
9,284,852
11,715,148
Nil.
1824
10,212,231
1,265,909
11,478,140
9,521,860
11,478,140
21,860
1825
10,092,842
1,013,108
11,105,950
9,894,050
11,105,950
*394,050
1826
9,967,483
53,247
10,720,730
10,279,270
10,720,730
779,270
Note.—In this Table, no credit is taken for the Annuities which will expire in 1820, and which would come in aid of this sum.—See note to Table C.
TABLE R. 2.
Shewing, The Amount of WAR TAXES which would be released at the End of any given Year, when Peace might take place; if the Principle of rendering disposable the Excess of the Sinking Fund above the Interest of the Debt were applied, on the return of Peace, to the Debt charged on the War Taxes, as well as to the present Debt: And, in that Event, shewing how much of the Property Tax would remain pledged at the End of any given Year; supposing the other War Taxes, exclusive of the Property Tax, to produce
£
—
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
YEAR
Price of 3 Per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest Per Cent.
Excess of Sinking Fund above the Interest of the Debt charged on the War Taxes.
Total Excess of the present Sinking Fund which might, in any given year of Peace, be applied to the release of the War Taxes.
Total Excess of both Sinking Funds above the Interest of both Debts.
War Taxes which would remain pledged after deducting the Excesses.
War Taxes, which might be released at the End of any given Year.
Amount of the Property Tax taken at
£
£
£
£
£
£
£
1807
60.
=5
60,000
-
60,000
1,140,000
19,860,000
Nil.
1808
63.16
=4¾
-
239,700
239,700
2,160,300
18,839,700
Nil.
1809
-
-
484,936
-
484,936
3,115,064
17,884,936
Nil.
1810
66.66
=4½
878,057
-
878,057
4,121,943
16,878,057
Nil.
1811
-
-
1,381,770
-
1,381,770
5,218,230
15,781,770
Nil.
1812
70.58
=4½
2,039,194
-
2,039,194
6,160,806
14,839,194
Nil.
1813
-
-
2,792,559
-
2,792,559
7,007,441
12,992,559
Nil.
1814
75.
=4½
3,693,061
-
3,693,061
7,706,939
13,293,061
Nil.
1815
And to continue at that rate throughout the rest of this period of 20 years
4,693,583
-
4,693,583
8,306,417
12,693,583
Nil.
1816
5,798,126
138,984
5,937,110
8,662,890
12,337,110
Nil.
1817
7,010,850
1,014,075
8,024,925
8,175,075
12,824,925
Nil.
1818
8,336,083
1,331,433
9,667,516
8,132,484
12,867,516
Nil.
1819
9,778,326
1,542,018
11,320,344
8,079,656
12,920,344
Nil.
1820
11,342,258
1,638,147
12,980,405
8,019,595
12,980,405
Nil.
1821
11,637,548
1,473,588
13,111,136
7,888,864
13,111,136
Nil.
1822
11,944,649
1,259,780
13,204,429
7,795,571
13,204,429
Nil.
1823
12,264,034
994,753
13,258,787
7,741,213
13,258,787
Nil.
1824
12,429,795
791,657
13,221,452
7,778,548
13,221,452
Nil.
1825
12,435,785
723,849
13,159,634
7,840,366
13,159,634
Nil.
1826
12,442,016
694,894
13,136,910
7,863,090
13,186,910
Nil.
*Note.—In this Table, no credit is taken for the Annuities which will expire in 1808 and in 1820; nor for the sum which would arise from the reduction of the 5 to a 4 per-cent, fund.
TABLE R. 3.
Shewing, the Amount of WAR TAXES which would be released at the End of any given Year, when Peace might take place; if the Principle, of rendering disposable the Excess of the Sinking Fund above the Interest of the Debt, were applied, on the Return of Peace, to the Debt charged on the War Taxes, as well as to the present Debt: And, in that Event, shewing how much of the Property Tax would remain pledged at the End of any given Year; supposing the other War Taxes, exclusive of the Property Tax, to produce
£
£
£
YEAR
Price of 3 Per Cent. Stock.
Rate of Interest Per Cent.
Excess of SINKING FUND above the Interest of the Debt charged on the War Taxes.
Total Excess of the present SINKING FUND which might, in any given year of Peace, be applied to the release of the War Taxes.
Total Excess of both SINKING FUND above the Interest of both Debts.
War Taxes which would remain pledged after deducting the Excesses.
War Taxes, which might be released at the End of any given Year.
Amount of the Property Tax taken at 11,500,000
l
£
£
£
£
1807
60.
=5
60,000
-
60,000
1,140,000
19,860,000
Nil.
1808
66.66
=4½
296,101
-
296,101
2,103,899
18,896,101
Nil.
1809
-
-
596,825
-
596,825
3,003,175
17,996,825
Nil.
1810
75.
=4
1,111,897
-
1,111,897
3,888,103
17,111,897
Nil.
1811
-
-
1,753,172
-
1,753,172
4,846,828
16,153,172
Nil.
1812
85.71
=3¼
2,598,333
-
2,598,333
5,601,667
15,393,333
Nil.
1813
-
-
3,529,073
-
3,529,073
6,270,927
14,729,073
Nil.
1814
Par=3
4,636,146
-
4,636,146
6,763,854
14,236,146
Nil.
1815
-
-
5,824,430
-
5,824,430
7,175,570
13,824,430
Nil.
1816
-
-
7,096,362
-
7,096,362
7,503,638
13,496,362
Nil.
1817
-
-
8,454,452
546,506
9,000,958
7,199,042
13,800,958
Nil.
1818
-
-
9,901,285
759,449
10,660,734
7,139,266
13,860,734
Nil.
1819
-
-
11,439,523
895,579
12,335,102
7,064,898
13,935,102
Nil.
1820
-
-
13,071,908
950,674
14,022,582
6,977,418
14,022,582
Nil.
1821
-
-
13,352,465
818,621
14,171,086
6,828,914
14,171,086
Nil.
1822
-
-
13,641,437
658,607
14,300,044
6,699,956
14,300,044
Nil.
1823
-
-
13,939,080
619,668
14,558,748
6,441,252
14,558,748
Nil.
1824
-
-
14,122,052
01,079
14,723,131
6,276,869
14,723,131
Nil.
1825
-
-
14,186,913
583,046
14,769,959
6,230,041
14,769,959
Nil.
1826
-
-
14,253,719
565,555
14,819,274
6,180,726
14,819,274
Nil.
Note.—In this Table, no credit is taken for the Annuities which will expire in 1808 and in 1820, nor for the sums which would arise from the reduction of the 5 to a 4 per-Cent. fund, and afterwards of the 4 to a 3 per-Cent fund.
TABLE R. 4.
Shewing at one View the different RESULTS of the three Tables, R, R. 2, & R. 3.
1st SUPPOSITION—Table R.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue at 60. throughout the whole period of 20 Years.
2d SUPPOSITION—Table R. 2.—The 3 per Cents. are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 63.16, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 70.58, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to 75. and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the period of 20 Years.
3d SUPPOSITION—Table R. 3.—The 3 per Cents are supposed to continue for the 1st Year (viz. 1807) at 60.; then to rise to 66.66, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1808 and 1809; then to rise to 75. and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1810 and 1811; then to rise to 85.71, and so to continue for two Years, viz. during 1812 and 1813; and then, viz. in 1814, to rise to Par, and to continue at that Price throughout the rest of the period of 20 Years.
YEAR.
1st SUPPOSITION.
2d SUPPOSITION.
3d SUPPOSITION.
War Taxes which might be released at the End of any given Year
Amount of the Property Tax, taken at 11,500,000
l
War Taxes, which might be released at the End of any given Year.
Amount of the Property Tax, taken at 11,500,000
l
War Taxes which might be released at the End of any given Year
Amount of the Property Tax, taken at 11,500,000
l
£
£
£
£
1807
19,860,000
Nil.
19,860,000
Nil.
19,860,000
Nil.
1808
18,783,000
Nil.
18,839,700
Nil.
18,896,101
Nil.
1809
17,772,150
Nil.
17,884,936
Nil.
17,996,825
Nil.
1810
16,640,757
Nil.
16,878,057
Nil.
17,111,897
Nil.
1811
15,402,794
Nil.
15,781,770
Nil.
16,153,172
Nil.
1812
14,262,933
Nil.
14,839,194
Nil.
15,398,333
Nil.
1813
13,226,079
Nil.
13,992,559
Nil.
14,729,073
Nil.
1814
12,297,382
Nil.
13,293,061
Nil.
14,236,146
Nil.
1815
11,482,251
Nil.
12,693,583
Nil.
13,824,430
Nil.
1816
11,957,914
Nil.
12,337,110
Nil.
13,496,362
Nil.
1817
11,923,046
Nil.
12,824,925
Nil.
13,800,958
Nil.
1818
11,891,765
Nil.
12,867,516
Nil.
13,860,734
Nil.
1819
11,858,922
Nil.
12,920,344
Nil.
13,935,102
Nil.
1820
11,819,104
Nil.
12,980,405
Nil.
14,022,582
Nil.
1821
11,850,628
Nil.
13,111,136
Nil.
14,171,086
Nil.
1822
11,817,068
Nil.
13,204,429
Nil.
14,300,044
Nil.
1823
11,715,148
Nil.
13,258,787
Nil.
14,558,748
Nil.
1824
11,478,140
21,860
13,221,452
Nil.
14,723,131
Nil.
1825
11,105,950
394,050
13,159,634
Nil.
14,769,959
Nil.
1826
10,720,730
779,270
13,136,910
Nil.
14,819,274
Nil.
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
D
Danstanville, Lord De; his Indemnity Bill, 724
F
France, Negotiation with, 259
I
Indemnity Bill; Lord De Dunstanville's, 724
Insolvent Debtors, 1028
K
King's Speech, on opening the Session;
see
L
Lords Commissioners' Speech, 15
M
Maida, Battle of, 213
Malt Duty Bill, 427
N
Negociation with France, 259
S
Scotch Judicature Bill, 602, 788
Slave-Trade Abolition Bill, 257, 431, 601, 612, 657, 677, 691, 701
Speech, Lords Commissioners', 15
Stuart, Sir John; Vote of Thanks to, 213
T
Taxation, Lord Warwick's Outlines of a Plan of, 1029
V
Vote of Thanks to Sir John Stuart, 213
W
Warwick, Lord; his Plan of Taxation, 1029,
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Abbot, Rt. Hon. Charles, chosen Speaker, 2
Address of the Commons, on the Lords Commissioners' Speech, 39, 82
American Treaty, 444
Army Estimates, 453, 472,535
B
Barrack Abuses, 843
Barrack Supplies, 559
Battle of Maida, 215, 429
Biddulph, Mr.; his Motion relative to Sinecure Places and Pensions, 703
Brandy, Duty on, 850
Budget, 1075
Buenos Ayres, 466
C
Carnatic Papers, 1018
Cawthorne, Mr., Charges against, 432, 450, 515
Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Biddulph's Motion relative to the Salary of the, 227
D
Davison, Mr. A., Conduct of, 674
Declaration of the King of Great Britain, on the Rupture of the Negociation with France, 209
Dublin Election Petition, 421
F
Finance, New Plan of, 564, 725, 794, 860, 921, 1004
Finance Committee, 722
Foreign Property in the Funds, 698
France, Negociation with, 241, 305
France; Papers relative to the Negociation with, 92
Freehold Estates Bill, 561, 851
G
Galway Election Writ, 226, 227
Grenville Election Act, 695
H
Hampshire Election, Petition respecting the, 684, 747
I
Irish Election Bill, 436
Irish Miscellaneous Services, 937, 1079
Irish Treasury Bills' Bill, 605
K
King's Speech on opening the Session;
see
L
Londonderry Election Petition, 469
Lords Commissioners' Speech, on opening the Session, 15, 35, 82
Lunatics, Criminal and Pauper, 514
M
Maida, Battle of, 215, 429
Military Establishments of the Country, 426, 438
Militia Officers, 513
Mutiny Bill, 931
N
Navy Estimates, 236, 529
Negociation with France, 241
Negociation with France, Papers relative to the, 92
Neutral Trade 466
Neutrals, Order of Council relative to, 451, 620
O
Oak Bark Bill, 435, 549
Order of Council relative to Neutrals, 451, 620
Ordnance Estimates, 423, 425, 429
P
Paull, Mr., his Petition respecting the Westminster Election, 997, 1056
Poor Laws Bill, 865, 944
Private Bills, Resolutions relating to, 254
Prussian Subsidy, 1074
R
Resolutions relating to Private Bills, 254
Roman Catholics, 931
Roman Catholic College at Maynooth, 938, 1079
S
Scotch Clergy Bill, 557, 610, 838
Sinecure Places and Pensions, 703
Slave-Trade Abolition Bill, 717, 829, 939, 945, 1040
Speaker, Choice of a, 2
Stuart, Sir John; Vote of thanks to, 215
Sugar, Distillation of, 238
Sugar Drawbacks, 840, 849
T
Tables and Calculations relative to the New Plan of Finance, Append. i.
Thetford Election Petition, 302, 418
Treasurership of the Navy 604
V
Vellore, Massacre at, 689
Vote of Thanks to Sir John Stuart, 215
W
Ways and Means; Mr. Biddulph's Motion relative to the Salary of the Chairman of, 227
Wellesley, Marquis; Conduct of, 433, 443, 551
Westminster Election Petition, 232, 933, 997, 1033.
Woollen Trade, 240
INDEX OF NAMES.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
B
Buckinghamshire, Earl of, 701
C
Carnarvon, Earl of, 680
Clarence, Duke of, 259, 617, 664, 683
D
Durham, Bishop of, 670
F
Eldon, Lord, 257,258,286, 297 602, 603, 614, 618, 670, 792
Ellenborough, Lord, 793
Erskine, Lord;
see
G
Gloucester, Duke of, 665
Grenville, Lord, 25, 34, 213, 257, 258, 259, 293, 432, 468, 469, 601, 602, 613, 615, 617, 618, 657, 677, 678, 691, 702, 788, 793, 1030.
Grosvenor, Earl, 259, 284
H
Hardwicke, Earl of, 678
Hawkesbury, Lord, 21, 34, 257, 270, 431, 602, 616, 671, 679, 793
Holland, Lord, 616, 618, 671, 682, 1028
J
Jersey, Earl of, 17
K
King, Lord, 669
L
Lauderdale, Earl of, 297, 681
London, Bishop of, 692
Lord Chancellor (Erskine), 1, 13, 617, 680, 724, 794
M
Moira, Earl of, 671
Montrose, Duke of, 682, 792
Morton, Earl of, 666, 681
N
Norfolk, Duke of, 702
Northesk, Lord, 669
R
Radnor, Earl of, 34
Redesdale, Lord, 678, 681,691, 701
Rosslyn, Earl of, 668
S
Selkirk, Earl of, 667, 1031
Sidmouth, 278, 668
Somers, Lord, 19
Stanhope, Earl, 681
Suffolk, Earl of, 672, 794
V
Vincent, Earl St. 669, 693
W
Warwick, Earl of, 1029, 1031
Westmoreland, Earl of, 469 601, 666,702
INDEX OF NAMES.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Abbot, Rt. Hon. C.;
see
Adam, W. 524, 611, 774, 1003, 1039
Addington, J. H. 599, 995, 1027
Advocate-General (Sir J. Nicholls), 633
Anstruther, Sir J. 552, 553, 1022
Attorney-General (Sir A. Pigott), 304, 420, 521, 523, 524, 609, 697, 859, 936
B
Baker, W. 239
Bankes, W. 525, 553, 696, 698, 925, 940, 1084
Barham, J. 1048
Barry, J. 845
Bathurst, B. 3, 256, 304, 420, 522, 722, 776, 972, 1050.
Biddulph, R. M. 228, 231, 458, 703, 716, 722, 763, 1033, 1036, 1039
Bourne, S. 455, 514, 527, 560, 687, 688, 860
Broadrick, W. 760
Browne, A. 1046
Browne, I. H. 721
C
Calcraft, J. 421, 423, 425, 426, 429, 430, 454, 459, 786
Calvert, N. 716, 722, 919
Canning, G. 44, 83, 90, 247, 248, 373, 686, 769, 857, 930
Castlereagh, Lord, 76, 426, 438, 441, 442, 459, 472, 480, 640, 725, 794, 820, 929, 1004
Cavendish, Lord G. 526, 527, 527
Cawthorne, J. F. 432, 433, 451, 516, 528
Chancellor of the Exchequer;
see
Corry, I. 226, 228, 550, 600, 927,
Courtenay, J. 1049
D
Dent, J. 239
Doyle, Sir J. 222, 511, 536, 974, 994
Dundas, W. 470, 558, 839
E
Ellison, R. 716, 919
Erskine, H.;
see
F
Fawkes, W. 715, 963
Fellowes, R. 256, 852
Fitzpatrick, R.
see
Folkestone, Lord, 232, 433, 434, 435, 520, 551, 552, 553, 554, 698, 706, 775, 934, 936, 937, 997, 1002, 1003, 1026
Fremantle, W. H. 688, 723, 754
Fuller, J. 256, 941, 1035, 1052
G
Gascoyne, I. 444, 519, 524, 718, 851, 941, 956
Giddy, D. 824
Giles, D. 823
Grant, Sir W.;
see
Grant, C. 1023
Grattan, H. 551, 939, 1084
Grenville, T. 11, 236, 529, 533
H
Hamilton, Lord A. 559, 606, 608, 677, 840
Herbert, H. A. 937, 939, 1052
Herbert, W. 518, 523, 527, 549, 852
Hilbert, G. 717, 761, 979, 1050
Horner, F. 559
Howick, Lord, 61, 81, 82, 83, 226, 228, 230, 242, 246, 248, 254, 256, 305, 331, 414, 416, 433, 434, 445, 450, 451, 452, 453, 456, 457, 461, 462, 463, 467, 468, 471, 505, 516, 525, 526, 529, 552, 564, 648, 688, 718, 781, 845, 847, 920, 931, 932, 935, 940, 946, 1000, 1001, 1003, 1034, 1053, 1086
Howard, H. 689
Howarth, H. 942
Hughan, T. 1040
Hurst, T. 525, 687
Huskisson, W. 929
J
Jacob, W. 547, 640, 848, 1050
Jeffery, J. 762
Jenkinson, C. 765
Johnstone, G. 91, 223, 255, 256, 421, 425, 430, 453, 460, 462, 463, 511, 532, 545, 598, 600, 606, 723, 776, 923.
K
Keene, W. 553
Kenrick, W. 610
L
Lamb, W. 35, 1037
Long, C. 798
Lord Advocate of Scotland (Mr. H. Erskine), 557, 559, 612, 838, 840
Lushington, S. 962
Lyttleton, W. H. 1037
M
Mahon, Lord, 967, 1085
Manning, W. 945, 994
Markham, J. 533
Master of the Rolls (Sir W. Grant), 852
Milbanke, Sir R. 1050
Mildmay, Sir H. 749, 769
Milton, Lord, 972
Mingay, J. 303, 304, 418
Montague, M. 332, 458, 1036, 1050
Moore, P. 936, 1056
Morris, E. 860, 944
N
Newport, Sir J. 436, 470, 534, 605, 606, 920, 937, 938, 939, 1082
Nicholls, Sir J.;
see
P
Parnell, H. 599
Perceval, S. 83, 234, 241, 245, 249, 414, 451, 453, 456, 462, 468, 471, 502, 532, 558, 620, 655, 676, 686, 777, 859, 928, 936, 938, 939, 1079
Percy, Earl, 995
Petty, Lord H. (Chancellor of the Exchequer,) 87, 90, 91, 411, 417, 463, 511, 533, 548, 560, 564, 597, 599, 608, 676, 677, 700, 706, 714, 722, 745, 797, 813, 840, 851, 929, 1073, 1074, 1078
Pigott, Sir A.;
see
Plumer, W. 719
Plummer, W. T. 720
Pole, W. 443, 555
Pole, Sir C. 941, 1040
Porter, G 433, 450, 515
Price, C 847, 849
Pulteney, Sir J. 90, 536, 921
R
Robinson, J. 1038
Robson, R. B. 843, 846, 847
Romilly, Sir S.;
see
Roscoe, W. 420, 943, 961
Rose, G. 304, 456, 532, 533, 534, 535, 546, 550, 597, 674, 687, 747, 784, 803, 847, 849, 851, 919, 926, 1077
Russell, Lord W. 524
Ruthven, E. S. 459, 535
S
Secretary at War (General Fitzpatrick), 454, 460, 473, 511
Sheridan, R. B. 232, 234, 249, 550, 553, 556, 604, 933, 1000, 1001, 1022, 1037, 1056
Simeon, J. 695, 697, 698
Smith, A. 684, 747
Smith, J. 41
Solicitor-General (Sir S. Romilly), 420, 561, 787, 851, 854, 858, 977
Speaker (Rt. Hon. C. Abbot), 2, 10, 12, 35, 90, 422, 463, 529, 608, 611, 684, 839, 945
Stanhope, S. 518, 525, 528, 529, 920, 1027
Stanley, Lord, 528
T
Temple, Earl, 238, 239, 240, 436, 455, 550, 645, 685, 721, 847, 1035.
Thornton, H. 547, 922
Thornton, R. 556, 1025
Tierney, G. 419, 686, 690, 766, 800, 849, 1025
Turton, Sir T, 336, 466, 468, 647, 1018, 1027, 1078
V
Vansittart, N. 459, 534, 535
Vyse, R. 1037
W
Walpole, G. 470
Ward, R. 524
Wellesley, Sir A. 1024, 1027.
Whitbread, S. 302, 304, 339, 418, 462, 551, 555, 865, 944, 945, 1035, 1051
Wilberforce, W. 6, 550, 564, 611, 712, 941, 993, 1086
Wilder, F. G. 429
Williams, Sit R. 459
Windham, Mr. Secretary, 81, 215, 225, 426, 429, 440, 442, 473, 492, 1050
Wynne, C. 420, 421, 422, 472, 514, 515, 563, 687, 697, 698, 1035
Y
Yarmouth, Earl of, 249, 325
Yorke, C. 932
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