COBBETT'S
Parliamentary Debates,
DURING THE
SECOND SESSION OF THE SECOND PARLIAMENT
OF THE
UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT-BRITAIN AND IRELAND,
AND OF THE
KINGDOM OF GREAT-BRITAIN THE NINETEENTH,
Appointed to meet at Westminster the Sixth Day of October, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Three; and from thence continued, by Prorogation, to the Twenty-second Day of November, in the Forty-fourth Year of the Reign of King GEORGE the THIRD Annoque Domini, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Three.
VOL. I.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
BETWEEN 22d NOVEMBER, 1803, AND 29th MARCH, 1804.
LONDON:
PRINTED BY COX AND BAYLIS, GREAT QUEEN STREET;
AND SOLD BY R. BAGSHAW, BOW STREET, COVENT GARDEN; J. BUDD, PALI, MALL; AND H. D. SYMONDS, PATER-NOSTER ROW,
1804.
ADVERTISEMENT.
IN presenting this Volume to the Public, it seems necessary to say a few words as to the plan of publication, and also as to the nature and arrangement of the contents, especially as there is so very great a difference between this work and every other, which, under a similar title, or professing a similar purpose, has heretofore been undertaken in this country. With regard to the first point, it is, as in the present instance, intended, always to divide the matter, arising in each Session, into two Volumes, the first to comprise an account of the proceedings from the opening of the Session to the Easter Recess, and the second to comprise the proceedings from the end of that Recess to the close of the Session. The nature and arrangement of the contents are as follows: I. Two Tables of Contents, one relating to the House of Lords, the other to the House of Commons, each forming a brief chronicle of the whole of the proceedings in the two Houses respectively; to which Table is added another, pointing out where the accounts and other documents are to be found. II. A complete List of the Members of the Parliament, as it stood at the opening of the Session; as also a List of His Majesty's Cabinet, and certain other Ministers, as it stood at the same time. III. The body of the work contains, in due chronological order, all the Debates Minutes of minor Proceedings, Messages, Motions, Lists of Minorities, &c. IV. In a part of the Volume pointed out by the Table of Contents, will be found all the material Accounts, Estimates, Returns, &c. &c. laid before Parliament; together with a List of the Acts passed during the period embraced by the Volume. V. At the close of the Volume are four Indices; viz., two of the
Subjects
Names
of Minutes,
Accounts
Returns
only
TABLE OF CONTENTS.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
1803.
Page
1803 Nov. 22. King's Speech.—Marquis of Sligo, Earl of Limerick
1
Committee of Privileges.—Lord Hawkesbury, The Lord Chancellor, Lord Walsingham
11
1803 Dec. 2. Parochial Clergy.—Dnke of Norfolk
6o
1803 Dec. 9. Volunteers.—Earl Darnley, Lord Hawkesbury, Earl Darnley, Lord Hawkesbury
151
Bank of England Restriction Bill.—Lord King, Lord Hawkesbury, Lord King, Lord Hawkesbury, Lord Grenville
152
1803 Dec. 12. Expiring Laws Bill.—Earl of Suffolk, Lord Hawkesbury
240
Curates' Relief Bill.—Earl of Suffolk
240
Irish Habeas Corpus and Martial Law Bill.—Lord Hawkesbury, Earl of Suffolk, Lord King, Marquis of Sligo, Lord Grenville, Earl of Limerick, The Lord Chancellor, Earl Darnley, Lord Hobart
240
1803 Dec. 13. Bank of England Restriction Bill.—Lord Grenville, Lord Hawkesbury, Lord King, Marquis of Sligo, Duke of Norfolk, Lord Grenville, Lord Hawkesbury
304
1803 Dec. 16. Volunteer Exemption Bill.—Earl of Suffolk, Lord Hobart, Earl of Suffolk, Lord Hawkesbury, Earl of Suffolk, The Lord Chancellor, Lord Grenville, Lord Hobart, Lord Romney, Lord Hobart, Earl Darnley, Lord Hawkesbury, Duke of Clarence
354
1803 Dec. 19. Volunteer Exemption Bill.—Earl Fitzwilliam, Lord Hawkesbury, Earl Fitzwilliam, Lord Grantley, The Lord Chancellor, Earl Fitzwilliam, The Lord Chancellor
364
1804. Feb. 7. Queen Anne's Annuities.—Earl of Suffolk, Lord Hawkesbury
420
Volunteers.—Earl of Suffolk, Lord Walsingham, The Lord Chancellor, Earl of Suffolk, Lord Hawkesbury, Earl of Suffolk
421
1804 Feb. 20. Cholmondeley Estate Bill.—The Lord Chancellor, Lord Alvanley
492
1804 Feb. 29. Irish Pensions and Salaries at par.—Lord King, Earl of Limerick, Earl of Suffolk, Lord Hawkesbury, Earl of Suffolk, Lord Hobart
568
March 1. His Majesty's Indisposition.—Lord King, Lord Hawkesbury, Lord Grenville, Lord King, Lord Hawkesbury, Lord Carlisle, Lord Fitzwilliam, The Lord Chancellor, Lord Carnarvon, Lord Grenville, The Lord Chancellor, Lord Grenville
634
Bank and Private Paper.—Lord Grenville, Lord Hawkesbury, Lord Grenville, Lord Hawkesbury, Lord Carnarvon, Lord Hobart, Lord Grenville, The Lord Chancellor, Earl Spencer, Lord Hobart, The Lord Chancellor
642
1804 March. 5. Catholic Correspondence.—Earl of Suffolk
697
His Majesty's Indisposition.—The Lord Chancellor
697
Irish Bank Restriction Bill.—Lord King, Earl of Limerick, Lord King, Lord Grenville, Lord Hawkesbury, Earl of Carnarvon, Lord Auck land, Lord Carysfort, The Lord Chancellor
697
1804 March. 6. Irish Bank Restriction Bill.—Lord Auckland, Lord Hawkesbury, Lord King, Lord Carleton, The Lord Chancellor, Lord King, Lord Hawkesbury, Earl Darnley
714
1804 March. 7. Mutiny Bill.— Duke of Norfolk
735
1804 March. 9. His Majesty's Indisposition.—Earl Fitzwilliam, The Lord Chancellor
697
1804 March. 13. Boydell's Lottery Bill.—Earl of Suffolk, The Lord Chancellor
849
1804 March. 23. Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Lord Hawkesbury, Earl Spencer, Lord Hawkesbury, Earl Fitzwilliam, Earl Darnley, Lord Hawkesbury,
1804. March 23. Lord Harrowby, Earl of Carnavon, The Lord Chancellor, Earl Darnley, Lord Walsingham
1003
1804 March 26. Irish Militia.—Lord Hawkesbury, Earl of Limerick, Lord Carleton
1017
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Lord Hawkesbury, Lord Grenville, Lord Hawkesbury.—Earl Spencer.—Lord Hawkesbury
1017
Irish Salaries at par.—Earl of Limerick, Lord King
1018
1804 March 27. Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Lord Hawkesbury, Earl of Carnarvon, Lord Ellenborough, Earl of Carnarvon, Earl of Morton, Earl of Car narvon, Lord Hobart, Lord King, Lord Boringdon, Bishop of Llandaff, Earl Darnley, Earl of Fife, Lord Romney, Duke of Somerset, Lord Grenville, The Lord Chancellor, Lord Grenville, Earl Spencer, Lord Hobart, Duke of Montrose, Earl of Westmorland, Lord Auckland, Lord Harrowby, Lord Hawkesbury
1022
1804 March 28,—Irish Militia Offer Bill.—Lord Hawkesbury, Duke of Montrose, Marquis of Sligo, Earl of Limerick, Lord Grenville, Lord Hobart, Earl Darnley, Lord Grenville, Lord Hawkesbury
1053
Priests' Orders Bill.—Bishop of St. Asaph
1058
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
1803. Nov. 22. King's Speech.—The Speaker, Hon. Cropley Ashley, Mr. Burland, Mr. Fox, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir F. Burdett
13
1803. Nov. 23. Waterford Election Committee.—Mr. C. Dundas, The Speaker
32
Boston Election Petition.—Mr. Ellison, The Speaker
32
Renewed Election Petitions.—The Speaker, Chancellor of the Exchequer
33
Address on the King's Speech.—Hon. Cropley Ashley, Mr. Windham
34
1803. Nov. 25. Waterford Election Committee.—Mr. C. Dundas, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. C. Grant, The Speaker, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Ward, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Bragge
40
Desertion of Seamen.—Mr. Jarvis
43
1803. Nov. 28. Property Tax.—Mr. Alderman Combe, Mr. Vansittart
45
Barracks.—Admiral Berkeley, Mr. Vansittart
45
1803. Nov. 29. Private Petitions.— Chancellor of the Exchequer
46
Waterford Election Committee.—Mr. Deverell, The Speaker, Mr. Deverell, The Attorney-General
47
Barracks.—Admiral Berkeley, The Secretary at War
48
1803. Nov. 30. East-India Bonds.—Lord Castlereagh
50
Bank of England Restriction Bill.—Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Jekyll, Chancellor of the Exchequer
51
Waterford Election Committee.—Mr. Deverell, The Speaker, Mr. Deverell, The Attorney-General, Mr. W. Dundas, Mr. Bragge, The Speaker
53
1803. Dec. 1. Stipendiary Curates' Bill—Sir William Scott
57
Curates' Relief Bill.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer
58
Fortification of Liverpool.—Mr. Dent, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Creevey, Mr. Dent, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Dent
58
1803. Dec. 2. Curates' Relief Bill.—Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir Robert Buxton, Chancellor of the Exchequer
63
Exchequer Bills.—Chancellor of the Exchequer
64
Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Act.—Mr. Secretary Yorke.—Hon. C. H. Hutchinson.—General Loftus.—Mr. Hawthorn.—Earl Temple, Lord Archibald Hamilton, Mr. Burroughs, The Speaker, Mr. Burroughs, Lord Castlereagh
65
Irish Martial Law Bill.—Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Corry, Mr. John Claudius Beresford
79
Irish Bank Restriction Bill,—Mr. Corry
84
1803. Dec. 5. Oats Distillation Bill.—Mr. Corry, Mr. Francis, Mr. Corry
87
East-India Bonds.—Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Gregor, Mr. Vansittart
89
Irish Martial Law Bill.—Mr. William Elliot, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Col. Craufurd, Mr. Francis, Lord Castlereagh, Col. Craufurd, Mr. Pole, Col. Craufurd, Mr. Pole, Mr. Windham, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Wilberforce, Dr. Laurence, General Loftus, The Attorney-General, Mr. Windham, Hon. C. Hutchinson
89
Bank of England Restriction Bill.—Sir W. Elford, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
131
1803. Dec. 6. Irish Bank Restriction Bill.—Lord Archibald Hamilton, Mr. Corry
133
Order for Col. Grant's Atterdance.—Col. F. W. Grant, The Speaker, Mr. Plumer
134
East-India Bonds.—Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Dent, Lord Castlereagh,—Mr. Johnstone, Mr. Vansittart, Mr. C. Grant, Mr. W. Dundas
135
1803. Dec. 7. Irish Martial Law Bill.—Mr. Wilberforce, Col. Wood, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Windham, Mr. Wilberforce, Dr. Laurence, Lord A. Hamilton.—Admiral Berkeley, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Admiral Berkeley, Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. J. C Berestord Mr. T. Grenville, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Windham
139
1803. Dec. 8. Naval Inquiry.—Sir W. Elford, Sir C. Pole, Sir W. Elford, Sir C. Pole
149
Curates' Relief Bill.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer
150
Sierra Leona Company.—Mr. H. Thornton, The Chancellor of the Ex chequer, Mr. H. Thornton, Mr. Dent
150
1803. Dec. 9. Army Estimates.—The Secretary at War, Mr. Windham. Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Windham, Mr. T. Grenville, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Fox, Admiral Berkeley, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Corry, Lord De Blaquiere, Hon. C. H. Hutchinson, Mr. Pitt
157
1803. Dec. 10. Volunteer Exemption Bill.—Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Curwen, Mr. Huey Addington, Mr. Secretary Yorke, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
235
1803. Dec. 12. Report on the Army Estimates.—Colonel Craufurd, Mr. Rose, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Curwen, Mr. Pitt, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Pitt, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Pitt, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Windham, Mr. Erskine, Mr. Windham, Mr. Erskine, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Courtenay, Dr. Laurence, Lord Castlereagh, Dr. Laurence, The Attorney-General, Mr. Windham, The Secretary at War
261
Volunteer Exemption Bill.—Dr. Laurence, Mr. Secretary Yorke
303
1803. Dec. 13. Volunteer Exemption Bill.—Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Rose, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Sir W. Young, The Attorney-General, Dr. Laurence, Lord G. L. Gower, Mr. Tierney, Dr. Laurence, Mr. Rose, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Rose, Mr. Giles, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Sir W. Young, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Rise, Mr. Giles, The Attorney-General, General Norton, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir W. Wynne, Mr. Pattison, Col. Craufurd, Mr. Secretary Yorke
319
1803. Dec. 14. Volunteer Exemption Bill.—Mr. Windham, Mr. Hiley Addington, Mr. Windham, Mr. Alderman Price, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Col. Craufurd, Sir W. Young, Col. Calcraft, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Giles, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Giles, Sir W. Young, Dr. Laurence, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Windham
334
1803. Dec. 19. Irish Import Duties Bill.—Mr. Corry
368
Volunteer Exemption Bill.—Mr. Secretary Yorke, The Speaker, Mr. Windham, Mr. Secretary Yorke, Mr. Calcraft, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Folkestone, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, The Speaker, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Wind ham, Mr. Giles, Col. Calcraft, Lord Folkestone
369
1804. Feb. 1. Middlesex Election Petition.—Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Fox
385
1804. Feb. 2. Middlesex Election Petition.—Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Francis, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. T. Grenville, Mr. Jekyll, Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Serjeant Best, The Attorney-General, Mr. Fonblanque, Mr. Jarvis, Mr. Dallas, Mr. Deverell, Mr. Sheridan, Sir W. Pulteney, Mr. Fox, The Speaker, Mr. Fox
388
1804. Feb. 6. Barracks.—Col. Calcraft, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, The Se cretary at War
420
1804. Feb. 8. Conduct of General Fox.—Admiral Berkeley, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Sir J. Wrottesley
425
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Sheridan, Lord Castlereah, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Windham, Col. Eyre, Sir J. Wrottesley, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Sturges Bourne, The Attorney-General, Mr. Sturges Bourne, Mr. T. Grenville, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Hob house, Mr. T. Grenville, Dr. Laurence, Mr. Sec. Yorke, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir W. Young
425
1804. Feb. 9. Middlesex Election Committee—Lord Marsham
468
Stirling Election Petition.—Mr. Creevey, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
468
Motion for Papers.—Mr. T. Grenville
468
1804. Feb. 10. Stirling Petition.—Mr. Creevey, The Speaker, Sir T. Metcalfe
471
1804. Feb. 13. Slave Trade.—Mr. Wilberforce
472
Cotton Manufacturers.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Rose
472
Irish Bank Restriction Bill—Mr. Corry, Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Corry, Lord H. Petty, Mr. Vansittart, Mr. Foster, Mr. H. Thornton, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Foster, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Corry, Mr. John stone, Lord Castlereagh, Lord Dunlo, Mr. Alexander
474
Greenland Fishery Bill.—Mr Vansittart
490
1804. Feb. 17. Irish Insurrection.—Sir John Wrottesley
491
1804. Feb. 20. Irish Bank Restriction Bill.—Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Corry, Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Curwen, Sir J. Newport, Mr. Foster
493
Irish Militia.—Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster
497
1804. Feb. 24. Irish Exchange and Currency.—Mr. Foster
503
1804. Feb. 27. Property Tax—.Earl Temple, The Sec. at War, Earl Temple, The Sec at War, Earl Temple
504
His Majesty's Indisposition—Sir R Lawley, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir R. Lawley, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Windham, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Canning, Air. Grey, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir R. Lawley, Mr. T. Grenville, The Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. T. Grenville
507
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. T. Grenville, Lord Ossulstone, Mr Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Windham, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Pitt Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Dent, Mr. Grey, Capt. Markham
532
Irish Insurrection.—Sir John Wrottesley
567
1804. Feb. 29. Permanent Taxes.— Mr. Johnstone, The Chancellor of the Exchequer Mr. Vansittart
570
Barracks.—Admiral Berkeley, The Sec. at War
570
Irish Salaries at par.—Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Corry
571
Irish Bank Restriction Bill.—Mr. Elliot, Mr. Alexander
571
Property Tax.—Mr. Dent, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Dent, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
571
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Francis, Col. Craufurd, Gen. Maitland, Col. Craufurd, Admiral Berkeley, Capt. Markham, Col. Eyre, Sir W. Young, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Fox, Mi. Pitt, Mr. Fox, Mr. Windham, Mr. Dent
572
1804. March 2. Irish Salaries at par.—Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Corry, Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Corry, Lord Folkestone
647
Irish Exchange and Currency.—Mr. Foster, Mr. Brogden, Mr. G. Ponsonby, Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry, Lord H. Petty, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Dick, Sir J. Newport, Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Fox, Mr. Dick
649
His Majesty's Indisposition.—Mr. Grey, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Grey
663
Irish Revenue Acts.—Mr. Corry, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Corry
664
Mutiny Bill—The Sec. at War.
665
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Sec. Yorke, Sir W. Young, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Windham, Mr. Fuller, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Curwen, Col. Craufurd, Mr. Pitt, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir W. Young, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Curwen, Mr. Fuller, Sir J. Wrottesley, Mr. C. Wynne, Mr. Sec. Yorke
665
1804. March 3. Irish Revenue Acts.—Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry, Mi. Dawson, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Atkins, Mr. Hawthorne, Lord De Blaquiere, Lord Castlereagh, Lord De Blaquiere, Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, Mr. Dawson
687
1804. March 5. Malt Duties.—Mr. Western, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
714
1804. March 6. Navy. Board.—Sir William Elford
719,
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Rose, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Raine, Mr. C. Wynne, Sir W. Geary, Lord Ossulston, Mr. Pitt, Sir W. Elford, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Gen. Tarleton, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Gen. Tarle-ton, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Pitt, Mr. C. Wynne, Lord W. Russell, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Rose, Mr. Lascelles, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Yorke, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Raine, Mr. Fox, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Fox, The Attorney-General, Mr. Fox, Lord W. Russell, Dr. Laurence, Mr. Pitt, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord G. Cavendish, Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt, Sir R. Lawley, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Sir W. W. Wynne, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gen. Maitland, Mr. Pitt, Sir W. Pulteney. Mr. Windham
719,
1804. March 7. Military Officers Income Tax.—Lord Temple, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Temple
736
Irish Insurrection.—Sir John Wrottesley, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Canning, Mr. Archdall, Mr. Dawson, Earl Temple, General Tarleton, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Fox, Mr. Dallas, Dr. Laurence, The Attorney-General, Lord De Blaquiere, Mr. Windham, Mr. Hawthorn, Mr. Windham, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Fox, The Speaker, Mr. Windham, Mr. Tierney, Mr. Fox, Mr. Grey, Mr. Tierney, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Gen. Tarleton, Col. Calcraft, Mr. Dent, Hon. C. H Hutchinson, Sir J. Wrottesley
737
1804. March 9. Irish Duties Bill.—Hon. C. H. Hutchinson, Mr. Ker, Mr. J. Latouche, Sir J. Newport, Mr Hawthorne, Mr. Corry, Mr. Dawson, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. G. Ponsonby, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Foster, Mr. Pitt, The Speaker, Mr Corry, Mr. Foster, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Rose, Mr. Corry, Mr. Canning, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Foster, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Fox, Mr. Ormsby, Mr. W. Ponsonby, Mr. Pitt,
810
Irish Militia Families.—Mr. Foster, Mr. Sec. Yorke
822
Lord Kilwarden's Family.—Mr. George Ponsonby, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
822
His Majesty's Indisposition.—Mr. Grey
823
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Pitt, The Chancel-
1804. March 9. dor of the Exchequer, Gen. Loftus, Mr. Pit., Mr. W. Dickinson, Mr. H. Addington, Mr. Windham, Mr. Pitt, Mr. C. Wynne, Mr. S. Sianhope. Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. G. Vansittart, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Pitt, Sir R. Buxton, Mr. F. Fourne, Mr. Burland, Mr. Hobhouse, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. H. Lascelles, Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt
823
1804. March 10. Irish Duties Bill.—Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster
830
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Tierney, Col. Eyre, Marq. of Titchfield, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Lascelles, Mr. Pitt, The Attorney-General, Mr. Pitt., The Chancellor of the Exchequer
831
1804. March 12. Exchequer Bills.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer
831
Irish Duties Bill.—Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, Mr. Cony, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Foster, Mr. Rose, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Rose, Mr. G. Ponsonby, Mr. Ormsby, Mr. Vansittart, Mr. Foster, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Corry, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. G. Ponsonby, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. J. La-touche
839
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Fox, The Chan cellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Ward, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Fox, Gen. Loftus, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Grey, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Grey, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Yorke
846
Naval Inquiry.—Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt
848
1804. March 13. Irish Duties Bill.—Sir J. Newport, Mr. Corry, Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry
851
1804. March 14. Property Tax.—Mr. Gregor, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
854
War in Ceylon.—Mr. Creevev, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Creevey, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Fox, Gen. Maitland, Mr. J. Johnstone, Lord Castlereagh, Col. Calcraft, Lord H. Petty, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
855
Mahratta War.—Mr, Francis, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Johnstone, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Francis
865
1804. March 15. Croydon Canal Bill.—Mr. Howard, Mr. Joliffe, Mr. Howard, Lord W. Russell, Mr. Somers Cocks, Mr. Hurst, Sir J. Anderson
873
Naval Inquiry.—Mr. Pitt, Mr. Tierney, Sir C. Pole, Admiral Berkeley, Sir E. Pellew, Admiral Berkeley, Mr. Wilberforce, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. G. Ponsonby, Mr. S. Bourne, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. S. Bourne, Sir W. Elford, Mr. T. Jones, Capt, Markam, Sir W. Curtis, Mr. Courtenay, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Fonblanque, Mr. Pitt
874
1804. March 19. Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Sec. Yorke, Gen. Tarleton, Mr. Cartwright, Mr. Erskine, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. T. Grenville, The Speaker, Mr. Kinnaird, Sir W. Young, The Sec. at War, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Fox, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. C. Wynne, Mr. Fox, The Attorney-General, Dr. Laurence, Sir T. Wrottesley, Mr. Aldermam Combe, Mr. Pitt Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Windham, Mr. Bastard, Mr. T. Grenville, Mr. Sheridan, Col. Caicraft, The Chan cellor of the Exchequer, Sir J. Wrottesley, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt
950
1804. March 20. Property Tax.—Earl Temple
951
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Kinnaird, Mr. S. Bourne, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Hiley Addington, Mr. Canning, Gen. Grosvenor, Mr. Fonblanque
951
1804. March 21. Liskeard Election.—Mr. W. Dundas, The Speaker, Mr. Pitt, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
954
Naval Surplus.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Lord Folkestone, Mr. Vansittart, Mr. Johnstone, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. S. Bourne, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
955
1804. March 22. Naval Surplus.—Lord Folkestone, The Chancellor of the Exchequer
958
1804. March 22. Mediation of Russia.—Mr. Fox, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Fox
959
Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—Mr. Langton, Col. Craufurd, Mr. Wind ham, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir J. Pulteney, Col. Crau furd, Mr. Dickinson, Mr. Rose, Mr. Curwen, Gen. Loftus, Gen. Tarleton, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. C. Wynne, Sir W. Geary, Mr. H. Lascelles
960
1804. March 23. Lord Hood's Claim.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Johnstone, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Rose, The Chancellor of the Excheqner
1001
Irish Half-pay Officers.—Lord A. Hamilton, Mr. Corry
1010
Property Tax Act.—Mr. Vansittart, the Chancellor of the Exchequer
1010
Loyalty Loan.—Mr. Dent, Tlie Chancellor of the Exchequer
1011
Aylesbury Election.—The Marquis of Titchfield, Mr. C. Wynne, The Master of the Rolls, Sir G. Cornevvall, the Marq. of Titchfield, Mr. C. Wynne, Mr. Rose, Sir J. Newport, Mr. N. Calvert, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Hurst, The Master of the Rolls, Mr. C. Wynne, Sir R.Buxton, Sir G. Cornevvall
1011
1804. March 26. Bankers' Indemnity Bill.—Mr. Vansittart, Mr. Prinsep, Mr. Dent, Mr. Vansittart
1020
King's Message.—The Chancellor of the Exchequor
1021
1804. March 27. Marine Society Fishery Bill.—Col. Calcraft, Mr. H. Addington, Mr. Hurst, Sir W. Geary. Mr. P. Moore, Mr. Prinsep, Mr. Blackburn
1048
1804. March 28. Irish Militia Families'Bill.—Mr. Foster, Mr. Corry
1060
Malt Duties. Lord A. Hamilton, Sir R. Buxton, Mr. Kinnaird
1061
Liskeard Election.—Mr. Pitt, Mr. Sheridan, Mr. Burroughs, Mr. Bragge
1061
Lord Hood's Claim.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Pierrepoint, Mr. Johnstone, Sir H. Popham, Mr. Creevey, The Chancel lor of the Exchequer, Dr. Laurence, The Chancellor of the Exche quer, Sir H. Popham, Dr. Laurence, Mr. W. Smith, Admiral Berkeley, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Kinnaird, Mr. Johnstone, Admiral Berkeley, Sir C. Pole, Mr. Windham, Mr, Kinnaird
1062
Irish Militia Offer Bill.—Sir F. Burdett, Mr. Fuller. Mr. Sec. Yorke, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Windham, Lord Castlereagh, Mr. Bastard, Dr. Lau rence, Hon C. H. Hutchinson. Mr. Banks, Mr. Windham, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Windham, Sir J. Newport, Col. Calcraft, Mr. Grenville, Mr. Archdall, Lord De Blaquiere, Lord Folkestone
1072
1804. March 29. Loyalty Loan.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer
1098
Lord Hood's Claim.—Col. Calcraft, Sir J. Nicholl, Col. Wood, Mr. T. Jones, Mr. Sheridan, The Master of the Rolls, The Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Bankes, Mr. Johnstone, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Burroughs, Dr. Laurence, The Attorney-General, Dr. Laurence
1099
PARLIAMENTARY ACCOUNTS, RETURNS, LISTS, &c.
FINANCE.
Account of the Net Produce of the Permanent Taxes in the Years and Quarters ending the 10th Oct. 1802 and 3
375
Account of the Public Income of Great-Britain, for the Year ending on the 5th of Jan. 1804
1103
Account of the Net Produce of the Permanent Taxes in Great-Britain in the Year, ending 5th Jan. 1803 and 1804
1109
Account of the Consolidated Fund of Great-Britain, for the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804
1111
Account of the Sums paid into, and the Charges upon, the Consolidated Fund between 5th Jan. 1803 and 5th Jan. 1804
1113
Account of the Public Expenditure of Great-Britain, for the Year ending on the 5th of Jan. 1804
1120
Account of the Monies paid out of the Receipt of His Majesty's Exchequer, in the Year ending on the 5th Jan. 1804, towards satisfying the Charges of the Public Funded Debt, of Great Britain, Ireland, and Imperial Leans
1121
Account of the Total Amount of the Sums actually received by the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804
1122
Account of the Interest paid on Exchequer Bills, from 5th Jan. 1803 to 5th Jan. 1804
1123
Account of the Charges upon the Consolidated Fund, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804, distinguishing the same under the Heads of Civil List, Courts of Justice, &c.
1123
Account of the Total Amount of such Sums as are incurred upon his Majesty's Establishment for Civil Affairs within Scotland
1125
Account of the Amount of Bounties paid out of the Revenues of Customs and Excise between 5th Jan. 1803 and 5th Jan. 1804; being Payments in the Nature of Anticipation of Exchequer Issues
1125
Account of the Pensions and Parliamentary Grants paid out of the Revenue of the General Post Office for the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804
1125
Account shewing how the Public Monies remaining in the Exchequer on 5th Jan. 1803 together with the Monies paid out of the same during the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804, &c. have been applied
1125
Account of Sums paid by Receivers General of Land Tax, to the Militia, and for Deserters' Warrants; and for Bounties on Hemp and Flax, in the Year end ing 5th Jan. 1804
1127
Account shewing the Amount of Monies received from his Majesty's Exchequer for Naval Services, between 5th Jan. 1803, and 5th Jan. 1804
1127
Account of Monies paid by the Office of Ordnance, in the Year 1803, for Services at home and abroad respectively
1127
Account of Monies paid by the Paymaster General of His Majesty's Forces, from 25th Dec. 1802 to 24th Dec. 1803
1129
Account of Loans, Remittances and Advances to other Countries in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804
1129
Account, shewing how the Monies in the Exchequer on the 5th Jan. 1803, together with the Monies paid into the same during the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804, have been actually applied as far as relates to Miscellaneous Services
1129
Account of the Unfunded Debt and Demands outstanding on 5th Jan. 1804
1137
Account of the Progress made in the Redemption of the Public Funded Debt of Great-Britain, at 1st Feb. 1804
1139
Account of the Progress made in the Redemption of the Public Funded Debt of Ireland, at 1st Feb. 1804
1139
Account of the Progress made in the Redemption of the Imperial Debt, at 1st Feb. 1804
1141
Account of the Amount of Premiums, and Bounties expended for taking and bringing Fish to London, &c.
1141
Account of the Extraordinary Expenses of the Army from 25th Dec. 1803 to 25th Dec. 1804
1143
Account of the Amount of the Notes of the Bank of Ireland, in Circulation on the 1stjan., April, Aug. and Oct., 1803
375
Account of the Amount of the Notes of the Bank of England, in Circulation on the 1st of June, Aug., Oct., and 25th Nov., 1803
376
Account of the Amount of the Notes of the Bank of Ireland, in Circulation on the 1st Jan., June, and Sep., 1797
1141
Papers respecting Payments made by the Government of Ireland, at par, to all Persons in and from Ireland, since the Union
1163
Papers respecting Lord Hood's Claim to Prize Money at Toulon
1167
Return to an Order of the House of Commons for An Account of the Number of Districts from which Assessments made by virtue of the Act imposing a Duty on Property, have been returned to the Office for Taxes, &c.
1173
TRADE.
Account of the Quantity in Yards and official Value of Linen exported from Ireland in 1800, 1, 2, and 3
1115
Account of all Corn, Grain, Meal, Malt, and Flour, imported into and exported from Ireland, in 1790, 1800, 1, 2, and 3
1118
Account of the Value of all Imports into, Exports from Great-Britain, for 18 Years ending 5th Jan. 1804
1143
Account of the official or rated Value of all Imports into Great-Britain during the last 7 Years
1145
Account of the official Value of all Foreign Merchandize exported from Great-Britain, during the last 7 Years
1149
Account of the official Value of all British Produce and Manufactures exported from Great Britain, during the last 7 Years
1147
Report of the Committee of the House of Commons, to whom the Petition of the Owners of Lands in the Islands of Shetland was referred
1171
Resolutions of the Committee of the House of Commons appointed to adjust such Differences as may arise between Masters and Workmen engaged in the Cot ton Manufactures
1172
NAVIGATION.
Account of the Number and Nature of His Majesty's Ships and Vessels in Com mission, and of hired armed Ships and Vessels, and of all other Ships, Vessels, and Boats armed for the Public Service
1107
Account of the Number of Seamen and Marines in His Majesty's Service, on the 31st Dec. 1793, 15th March, 1794, and 15th March, 1804
1115
Account of the Number of Vessels, with the Amount of their Tonnage, and the Number of Men and Boys employed in navigating the same, which entered Inwards and cleared Outwards, in the several Ports of England, between 5th June, 1803, and 5th Jan. 1804
1151
Account of the Number of Vessels, with the Amount of their Tonnage which have been annually built and registered in the several Ports of the British Empire between 5th Jan. 1802,and 5th Jan. 1804
1137
Account of the Number of Vessels, and the Number of Men and Boys employed in navigating; the same, which belonged to the several Ports of the British Empire on 30th Sept. 1802 and 3
1137
Account of the Number of Vessels, and the Number of Men and Boys employed in navigating the same, which entered into and cleared outwards, in the several Ports of Scotland between 5th Jan. 1803, and 5th Jan. 1804
1139
ARMY.
Abstract of a List of such Yeomanry and Volunteer Corps as have been accepted, and placed upon the Establishment in Ireland
380
Abstract of the Returns of all the Volunteer and Yeomanry Corps of Great-Britain, whose Services have been accepted by his Majesty, describing each Corps
382
Abstract from the List of Volunteer Corps, which have been placed on permanent Pay and Duty since Nov. 1. 1803
1141
Abstract from the Subdivision Rolls, made up from the Returns transmitted to the Secretary of State for the Home Department
1142
Estimate of the Sum that will possibly be required for the Service of the Barrack Department, in the Year 1804
1141
General Return of the Royal Army of Reserve made up in Dec. 1803
377
General Return of the Royal Army of Reserve for England and Wales
378
General Return of the Royal Army of Reserve for Ireland
379
List of the Regiments and Companies of the Irish Militia, which have made a voluntary Tender of their Services, to be employed in any Part of Great-Britain, during the War
1117
LISTS.
List of His Majesty's Ministers at the opening of the Session
xix
List of the Members of Parliament at the opening of the Session
xv
Lists of Acts passed, from the opening of the Session Nov. 22, to the Christmas Recess, Dec. 20 1803
383
List of Acts passed from the Meeting after the Christmas Recess, Feb. 1, to the Easter Recess, March 29, 1804
1175
List of the Minority on Sir John Wrottesley's Motion relative to the Irish Insur-rection
805
List of the Minority on Mr. Creevey's Motion relative to the War in Ceylon
865
List of the Minority on Mr. Pitt's Motion for a Naval Inquiry
927
List of the Minority on the Volunteer Consolidation Bill
949
AN ALPHABETICAL LIST OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS,
As it stood at the opening of the Session, November
Abbot, Rt. Hon. Charles, Speaker, Woodstoc
Acheson, Hon. Archibald, Armagh County
Adair, Robert, Camelford
Adams, Charles, Weymouth, &c. Adams, James, Harwich
Adams, William, Totness
Addington, Rt. Hon. H. Devizes
Addington, Rt, Hon. John Hiley, Harwich
Ainslie, Rt Sharpe, St. Michael
Alcock, Wm. Congreve, Waterford City
Alexander, Boyd, Glasgow, &c.
Alexander, Henry, Old Sarum
Allan, Alexander, Berwic
Allen, Jefferys, Bridgewater
Amyatt, James, Southampton
Anderson, Sir J. W. Bart. London
Andover, Viscount, Arundel
Andrews, Miles Peter, Bewdley
Annesley, Francis, Reading
Anson, Thomas, Lich field
Antonie, Wm. Lee, Bedford
Archdall, Mervin, Jun. Fermanagh County
Archdall, Richard, Dundalk
Ashley, Hon. Cropley, Dorchester
Astley, Sir Jacob Henry, Bart. Norfolk County
Atkins, John, Arundel
Aubrey, Sir John, Bt. Aldeburgh
Babington, Thomas, Leicester
Bagwell, John, Tiperary County
Bagwelt, Wm. Clonmell Borough
Bagenel, Wat. Cathorlogh County
Baillie, Evan, Bristol
Baillie, Geo. Jun. Berwicshire
Baker, John, Canterbury
Baker, Pet. Wm. Wooten-Basset
Baldwin, Wm. Westbury
Bampfylde, Sir Ch. W. Bt. Exeter
Bankes, Henry, Corff Caste
Barclay, George, Bridport Barclay, Sir Rt. Bart. Newtown, Hants
Barham, Jos. Foster, Stocbridge
Baring, Sir Francis, Bart. Chipping Wycombe
Barlow. Francis Wm. Coventry
Barlow, Hugh, Pembroke
Barne, Snowdon, Dunwich
Bastard, Edmund, Dartmouth
Bastard, J. Pollex fen, Devon shire
Beach. Mich, Hicks, Cirencester
Beaumont, Tho. Rd. Northumberland
Bennett, R. H. A. Launceston
Bent, Robert, Aylesbury
Benyon, Richard, Ponteiract
Beresford, Ld. Geo. T. London-derry County
Beresford, Rt. Hon. John, Waterford Country
Beresford, J. Cland. Dublin City-
Berkeley, Hon. Geo. Cranfield, Gloucestershire
Bernard, Thomas, King's County
Bertie, Albemarle, Stamford
Best, Wm. Draper, Petersfield
Binning, Lord, St. Germain
Bishopp, Sir Cecil, Bart. New Shoreham
Blackburn, John, Lancashire
Blackburn, John, Newport, Hants
Blandford, Marq of, Tregony
Bligh, Thomas, Meath County
Bloxam, Sir Mat. Kt. Maid stone
Bond, Nathaniel, Corff Castle
Bootle, Edw. Wilbr. Newcastle under Line
Bouverie, Hon. Ed. Northampton
Boyle, Viscount, Cork County
Bradshaw, Rob. Haldane, Bracley
Bragge, Rt. Hon. Cha. Bristol
Brandling, Ch. John, Newcastle upon-lyne
Brodie, James, Elginshire
Brodrick, Hon. Wm. Whit church
Brogden, James, Launceston
Brome, Viscount, Suffolk
Brooke, Charles, Hchester
Brooke, Lord, Warwic
Brooke, Tho. Newtown, Lancas.
Browne, Right Hon. Denis Mayo County
Browne, Fran. John, Dorset shire
Brown, Is. Hawkins, Bridge north
Bruce, Patric Craulurd, Evesham
Bruce, Lord, Marlborough
Buller, Edward, Fast. Looe
Buller, James, Exeter
Buller, James, West Looe
Buller, John, East Looe
Bullock, John, Essex
Bunbury, Sir T. C. Bart. Suffolk
Burdet-Junes, Sir F. Bt. Middlesex
Burdon, Rowl. Durham County
Barland, John Berkeley, Totness
Burroughs, William, Enniskillen
Burton, Francis, Oxford City
Burton, Hon. F. Nath. Clare Co.
Burton, Nap. Christie. Bevetley
Butler, Hon. Js. Kilkenny City
Butler. Hon. Js. Kilkenny County
Buxton, Sir Rob. J. Bart. Bedwin
Byng, George, Middlesex
Calcraft, John, Wareham
Calvert, John, Huntingdon
Calvert. Nicolson, Hertford
Campbell, John, Anstruther, &c.
Campbell, John, Rothsay, &c.
Campbell, Lord John D. E. H. Argyllshire
Canning, Right Hon. Geo. Tralee
Carberry, Lord, Rutland
Carew, Reginald Pole, Fowey
Carnegie, Sir Dav. Bt. Fortarshire
Cartwright, W. Ralph, Northamptonshire
Castlereagh, Visc. Down County
Cavendish, Lord Geo. Aug. Hen. Derbyshire
Caulfield, Hon. Hen. Armagh Co.
Chaplin, Charles, Lincolnshire
Chapman, Ch. Newtown, Hants
Chester, Charles, Castle-Rising
Chichester, Lord Spencer Stanley, Carriefergus
Chinnery, Sir B. Bart. Bandon Bridge
Cholmondeley, Thos. Cheshire
Chute, William, Hampshire
Clements. Visc. Leitrim County
Clephane, David, Kinross-shire
Clive, Hon. Robert, Ludlow
Clive, William, Bishop's Castle
Cochrane, Hon. Alex. Forrester, Dumfarmlin, &c.
Cockerell, Charles, Tregony
Cocks, Hon. John-Sommers, Ryegate
Codrington, Christ. Tewkesbury
Coke, Dan, Parker, Nottingham
Coke, Edward, Derby
Coke, Thomas Wm. Norfolk
Cole, Hon. G. L. Fermanagh Co.
Colquhoun, Jas. Dumbartonshire
Combe, Harvey Christ. London
Cooke, Bryan, Malton
Cooper, Joshua Edw. Sligoe Cou.
Coote, Sir Eyre, K. B. Queen's County
Cornewall, Sir Geo. Bart. Herefordshire
Cornwallis, James, Eye
Cornwallis, Hon. Wm. Eye
Corry, Right Hon. Isaac, Newry
Courienay, John, Appleby
Cowper, Hon. Edward Spencer, Hertford
Cranley, Viscount, Guilford
Craufurd, Robert, East Redford
Creevey, Thomas, Thetford
Crosbie, James, Kerry County
Curtis, Sir Wm. Bart. London
Curwen, John Christian, Carlisle
Curzon, Hon. Robert, Clitheroe
Cust, Hon. John, Clitheroe
Dallas, Robert, St. Michael
Dalkeith, Earl of, Ludgershall
Daily, Denis Bowes, Galway Town
Dash wood, Sir H. W. Bt. Woodstoc
Dawkins, James, Chippenham
Dawson, Richard, Monaghan Co.
De Blaquiere, Ld. K. B. Downton
Denison, John, Colchester
Dent, John, Lancaster
Devaynes, William, Barnstaple
Deverell, Robert, Saltash
Dickenson, Wm. Somersetshire
Dickenson, Wm. Jun. Lest withiel
Dickins, Fras. Northamptonshire
Dickson, Wm. Selkirk, &c.
Dillon, Hon. H. Aug. Mayo Coun.
Dolbin, Sir Wm. Bt. Oxford University
Douglas, Sir G. Bt. Roxburghshire
Douglas, Marquis of. Lancaster
Dugdale, Stratford Dugdale, Warwicshire
Duigenan. Pat. Armagh Borough
Duncombe, Cha jun. Aldborough
Dundas, Charles, Berks
Dundas, Hon. Charles Laurence, Malton
Dundas, Hon. George Heneage Laurence, Richmond
Dundas, Hon. Laurence York
Dundas, Philip, Gatton
Dundas, Hon. Rob. Edinburghsh.
Dundas, Right Hon. Wm. Sutherland shire
Dunlo, Viscount, Galway County
Dupré James, Aylesbury
Durand, John Hodson, Maidstone
Egerton, William, Cheshire
Elford, Sir Wm. Bart. Plymouth
Eliot, Hon. John, Leskeard
Eliot, Hon. Wm. Leskeard
Eliot, William, Peterborough
Ellis, Charles Rose, Seaford
Ellison, Richard, Lincoln
Elphinstone-Fleeming, Hon. Cha. Stirlingshire
Erskine, Sir James St. Clair, Bart. Kirkaldy, &c.
Erskine, Hon. Tho. Portsmouth
Erskine, Sir Wm. Bt Fifeshire
Estcourt, Thomas, Criclade
Everett, Thomas, Ludgershall
Euston, Earl of Camb. University
Eyre, Ant. Hardolph, Nottingham shire
Falkiner, Fred. John, Dublin Co.
Fane, Francis, Dorchester
Fane, Henry, Lime Regis
Fane, John, Oxford shire
Fane, Hon. Thomas, Lime Regis
Farquhar, James, Brechin, &c.
Fellows, Hon. Newton, Andover
Fellowes, Robert, Norwich
Fellowes, Wm. Hen. Huntingdon
Ferguson, James, Aberdeen shire
Fetherstone, Sir T. Bt. Long ford County
Finch, Hon. Edw. Cambridge
Fitzgerald, Rt. Hon. James, Ennis
Fitzgerald, Right Hon. Maurice, Kerry County
Fitzgerald, Ld. Rt. S. Kildare Co.
Fitzgerald, Rob. Uniacke, Cork County
Fitzharris, Viscount, Helston
Fitzhugh, William, Tiverton
Fitzpatrick Rt. Hon. Rd. Tavistoc
Fitzroy, Ld. Chs. Edmundsbury
Fitzwilliam, Visc. Wilton
Fleming, Sir Male, Bt. Westmorland
Fletcher, Sir Hen. Bt. Cumberland
Foley, Hon. Andrew Droitwich
Foljambe, Fr. Ferrand, Higham Ferrers
Folkes, Sir M. B. Bt. King's Lynn
Folkestone, Vise. New Sarum
Fonblanque, John, Camelford
Forester, Cecil, Wenloe
Fortescue, Wm Ch. Louth County
Foster, Rt. Hon. J. Louth County
Fox, Hon. Ch. James, Westminster
Francis Philip, Appleby
Frankland, William, Thirsk
Frederick, Sir John, Bt Surrey
French, Arthur, Roscommon Co.
Fuller, John, Sussex
Fydell, Thomas, jun. Boston
Gamon, Sir Rich. Bt Winchester
Gardner, Lord, Westminster
Garland, George, Poole
Garrard, Ch. Drake Agmondesham arthshore, Wm. Weymouth, &c.
Gascoyne, Isaac, Liverpool
scary, Sir William, Kt. Kent
Giles Daniel, East Grinstead
Glenbervic, Lord, Hastings
God and, Ambrose, Wiltshire
Godfrey, Thomas, He the
Gordon, Alex. Penrose Cumming, Fortrose &c
Gower, Lord G L. Stafford shire
Gown, Edw, Leveson, Truro
Graham Sir James, Bt. Ripon
Graham, James, Cockermouth
Graham, Thomas, Perthshire
Grant, Charles, Inverness shire
Grant, Francis Wm. Cullen, &c.
Grant, Right Hon. Sir Wm. Kt. Bamllshire
Greene, Wm. Dungarvon Bo.
Gregor, Francis, Cornwall
Grenfell, Pascoe, Marlow
Grenville, Rt. Hon. Thos. Buckingham
Greville, Hon. R. Fulk, Windsor
Grey, Hon. Chs. Northumberland
Grimstone, Hon. Jas. Walter, St. Albans
Grosvenor, Richard Earle Drax, Chester
Grosvenor, Thomas, Chester
Gunning, Geo. Wm. Hastings
Hamilton, Ld. Arch. Lancrkshire
Hamilton, Sir C. Bt. Dungannon
Hamilton, Hans, Dublin County
Hammet, John, Taunton
Hamond, sir And. S. Bt. Ipswich
Hardman, Edw. Drogheda Co & ro
Hardolph, Ant Nottingham shire
Hare, James, Knaresborough
Harrison, John, Thetford
Hartopp, Sir Ed. C. Bt. Leicestersh.
Harvey, Eliab, Essex
Hawkesbury, Lord, Rye
Hawkins, Sir Chris.Bt. Grampound
Hawthorne, Chas. Stewart, Downpatric
Heathcote, Sir Gil Bt Lincolnshire
Heathcote, John, Ripon
Heath cote, Sir Wm. Bt. Hampshire
Henderson, Ant. Bracley
Hill, Sir Gen, Fitzg. Bt. Londonderry City
Hill, Sir Rich. Bt. Shropshire
Hill, Hon William, Shrewsbury
Hilliard, Edward, Horsham
Hinchinbrook, Visc. Huntingdons.
Hippesley, Sir Jn. Cox, Bt. Sudbury
Hobhouse, Benjamin Gram pound
Hodson, John, Wrgan
Holds worth, Arthur Howe, Dartmouth
Holford, Geo. Peter, Eossiney
Holland, Hen. jun. Okehamptos
Holland, Sir Nathaniel, Bt. Great Bed win
Honyman. Robert, Orkney
Honywood, Filmer, Kene
Honywood, Sir In. Bt. Honiton
Hope, Hon. Alex Linlithgowsh.
Hope, Hon. Chs. Haddingtonshire
Hope, Rt. Hon. Chas. Edinburgh
Horrocks, John, Preston
Howard, Henry, Gloucester
Hughes, Wm. Lewis, Wallingford
Hulkes. James, Rochester
Hume, Wm. Hoare, Wiclow County
Huntingfield. Lord, Dunwich
Hurst, Robert, Shartesbury
Hussey, William, New Sarum
Hutchinson, Hon. Christopher Hely, Cork City
Jeffery, John. East Retford
Jeffery, John, Poole
Jekyll. Joseph, Calne
Jephson, Denham, Mallow
Jervis, Thos. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Jervoise, Jerv. Clarke, Yarmouth, Isle of Wight
Inglis. Sir Hugh, Bt. Ashburton
Joddrell, Henry, Bramber
Johnes, Thomas, Cardiganshire
Johnstone, George, Heydon
Jolliffe, Hylton, Petersfield
Jones, Tho. Tyrwhitt, AthloneBor.
Jones, Walter, Coleraine Borough
Keane, Sir John, Bt. Youghall
Keck, G. A. L. Leicestershire
Keene, Whitshed, Montgomery
Kensington, Lord, Haverford west
Ker, Rd. Gervas, Newport, Hants
King, Hon. Edw. Roscommon Co.
King, Sir John Dashwood, Bt. Chipping Wycombe
Kingston, John, Lymington
Kinnaird, Hon. Chas, Leominster
Kirkwall, Visc. Heyetesbury
Knight, Rich. Payne, Ludlow
Knox, Hon. Geo. Trinity-Col. Dub.
Kynaston-Powell, Jn Shropshire
Ladbroke, Robert, Winchelsea
Lamb, Thomas Davis, Rye
Lambe, Hon. Penniston, Hertford shire
Lambton, Ralph John, Durham
Langham, James, St. Germain
Langmead, Philip. Plymouth
Langton, Wm. Gore, Somersetsh.
Lascelles Hon. Edw. Northallerton
Lascelles, Hon. Hen. Yorkshire
Latouche Dav. jun. CatherloghCo
Latouche, John, jun. Dublin City
Latouche, Peter, Leitrim County
Latouche, Robt. Kildare County Laurence, French, Peterborough
Laurie, Sir Robt. Bt. Dumfriesshire
Lawley, Sir Robt. Bt. Newcastle-under-Line
Lee, Edward, Waterford County
Lefevre,Ch. Shaw, Bodmyn
Leigh, James Henry, Marlborough
Leizh, Robert Holt, Wigan
Letand, John Stamford
Lemon, John, Truro
Lemon, Sir Wm. Bt. Cornwall
Lenox, Charles, Sussex
Leslie, Chas. Powell, Monaghan Co.
Leycester, Hugh, Milborne Port
Littleton, Sir Edw. Bt. Staffordshire
Lloyd, James Martin, Steyning
Loftus, Earl, Wexford County
Loftus, William, Tam worth
Long, Rt. Hon. Chs. Wendover
Longfield, Mountifort, Cork City
Lopez, Manaseh, New Romney
Lovaine, Lord, Beerlaston
Loveden, Ed Loveden, Saftesbury
Lowther, James. Westmorland
Lowther, John, Cumberland
Lubbock, John, Leominster
Lushington, Sir S. Bt. Penryn
Luttrell, John Fownes, Minehead
Lygon, Wm. Worcestershire
Macdowall, Andrew, Wigtownsh.
Macdowall, Wm. Renfrewshire
Mackenzie-Frazer, A. Cromarty sh.
M'Mahon, John, Aldeburgh
Macnaghten, E. A. Antrim Co.
Madocks, Wm. Augustus, Boston
Maitland, John, Chippenham
Maitland, Hon. Tho. Jedburgh,&c.
Mann, Sir Horace, Bt. Sandwich
Manners, Ld. C. Som. Cambridgesh.
Manners, Lord Robt. Scar borough
Manners, Robert, Cambridge
Manners, Sir Wm. Bt. Ilchester
Manning, Wm. Lymington
Markham, John, Portsmouth
Marsham, Visc. Downton
Martin, James, Tewkesbury
Martin, Richard, Galway County
Mathew, Visc. Tipperary County
Mathews, John, Herefordshire
May, Edward, Belfast
Mellish, Wm. Great Grimsby
Metcalfe, Philip, Plympton
Metcalfe, Sir Tho. Theophilus, Bt. Abingdon
Middleton, Wm. Ipswich
Milbanke, Sir Ralp. Bt. Durham Co.
Mildmay, Sir H. P. S. Bt. Winchester
Milford, Lord, Pembrokeshire
Mills, Charles, Warwic
Milner, Sir W. M. Bt. York
Milnes, James, Blechingley
Milford, Wm. Beeralston
Moffatt, Wm. Winchelsea
Moncton, Hon. Edw. Stafford
Montagu, Lord Fr. Huntingdonsh.
Montgomery, Jas. jun. Peeblessh.
Moore. Charles, Heytesbury
Moore, Geo Pet. Queen borough
Moore, Peter, Coventry
Morgan, Rt. Hon. Sir Chas. Bt. Breconshire
Morgan, Chas. Monmouthshire
Morland, William, Taunton
Morpeth, Viscount, Morpeth
Morris, Edw. Newport, Cornwall
Moseyn, Sir Tho. Bt. Flintshire
Mundy, Ed. Miller, Derbyshire
Nepean, Sir Evan, Bt. Bridport
Neville, Rich. Wexford Town
Newborough, Lord, Beaumaris
Newcomen, Hon. T. G. Long ford County
Nicholl, Sir John, Knt. Penryn
Noel, Gerard Noel, Rutland
North, Dudley, Banbury
Northey, Wm. Newport, Cornw.
Norton, Hon. J. Chapple, Guilford
O'Brien, Sir Ed. Bt. Clare County
Odell, Wm. Limeric County
O'Hara, Chas. Sligoe County
Oliver, Chas. Silver, Limeric Co.
O'Neil, Hon. J. R. B. Antrim County
Orchard, Paul, Callington
Ord, Wm. Morpeth
Ormsby, Chas. M. Catherlogh Boro
Osborne, Ld. Fra.Godolph.Lewes
Osborne, John, Bedfordshire
Ossulston, Lord, Steyning
Paget, Hon. Arthur, Anglesey
Paget, Hon. Edw. Carnarvon
Paget, Lord, Milborne Port
Palk, Sir Laurence, Bt Devonshire
Palk, Walter, Ashburton
Palmer, John, Bath
Parsons, Sir Lau. Bt. King's Co.
Patten, Peter, Newtown, Lane.
Patteson, John, Minehead
Pedley, John, Hindon
Peel, Sir Robt. Bt. Tamworth
Peirse, Henry, Northallerton
Pelham, Hon. C. A. Gt. Grimsby
Pellew, Sir Edw. Bt. Barnstaple
Penn, John, Helston
Penn, Richard, Haslemere
Perceval, Hon. Sp. Northampton
Petty, Lord Henry, Calne
Philipps, John Geo. Carmarthen
Phipps, Hon. Edm. Scarborough
Pierrcpont, Hon. Chas. Herbert, Nottinghamshire
Pitt, John, Gloucester
Pitt, Rt. Hon. Wm. Cambridge Uni.
Pitt, Wm. Morton, Dorsetshire
Plumer, Wm. Hertfordshire
Pocock, Geo. Bridgewater
Pole, Sir Ch. Morice, Bt. Newark
Pole, Hon. Wm. Wellesley, Queen's County
Ponsonby, Geo. Widow County
Ponsonby, Rt. Hon. Wm. Brabazon, Kilkenny County
Porcher, Josiah Dupre, Bodmyn
Porchester, Lord, Criclade
Porter, Geo. Stockbridge
Portman, Ed. Berk. Borough bridge
Poyntz, Wm. Steph. St. Alban's
Praed, William, St. lves
Preston, Sir Robt. Bt. Cirencester
Price, Charles, London
Price, Richard, New Radnor
Prinsep, John, Queen borough
Proby, Visc. Buckingham
Pultency, Sir Js. Bt. Wey mouth. &c.
Pultency, Sir Wm. Bt. Shrewsbury
Pytches, John, Sudbury
Rain, Jonathan, St. Ives
Ram, Abel, Wexford County
Ridley, Sir Matthew White, Bt. Newcastle-on-Tyne
Robarts, Abraham, Worcester
Robinson, John, Bishop's Castle
Rochfort, Gustavus, WestmeathCo
Rooke, James, Monmouth shire
Rose, Rt. Hon. Geo. Christchurch
Rose, Geo. Henry, Southampton
Ross, Sir Chas. Bt. Rossshire
Ross, Patric, Horsham
Rowley, Sam. Camp. Kinsale Town
Russell, Mathew, Saltash
Russell, Lord Wm. Surrey
Rutherford, John, Selkirkshire
Ryder, Hon. Richard, Tiverton
St. John Ambrose, Callington
St. John, Hon. St. And. Bedfordsh.
Salusbury, Sir Rt. Bt. Brecon
Sargent, John, Bodmyn
Savage, Francis, Down County
Savile, Christopher. Heydon
Saunderson Francis, Cavan County
Scott, Claude, Malmesbury
Scott, David, St. Andrew's, &c.
Scott, Hon. John, Borough bridge
Scott, Joseph, Worcester
Scott, Samuel, Malmesbury
Scott, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Knt. Oxford University
Scudamore, John, Hereford
Seymour, Lord Robt. Orford
Shakespeare, Arthut, Richmond
Shelley, Henry, jun. Lewes
Shelley, Timothy, Shoreham
Sheridan, Rd. Brinsley, Stafford
Shuckburgh-Evelyn, Sir Geo. Aug. Wm. Bt. Warwicshire
Shum, Geo. Honlton
Sibthorp, Humphry, Lincoln
Simpson, Hon. John, Wenloc
Sinclair, Sir John, Bt. Buteshire
Sitwell, Francis, Berwic
Sloane, Hans, Lestwithiel
Smith, Charles, Westbury
Smith, George, Midhurst
Smith, John, Wendover
Smith, John Spencer, Dover
Smith, Joshua, Devizes
Smith, Samuel, Leicester
Smith, Tho. Asheton, Andover
Smith, Thos. West Looe
Smith, William, Norwich
Smith, William, Westmeath Co.
Smith, Sir Wm. Sidney, Knt K. C. Rochester
Smyth, Rt. Hon. Jno. Pontefract
Sneyd, Nathaniel, Cavan County
Somerset, Rt. Hon. Lord Charles Henry, Monmouth
Somerville, Sir M. Bt. Meath County
Spencer, Lord F. A. Oxfordshire
Spencer, Hon. John, Wilton
Spencer, Lord Robt. Tavistoc
Stanhope, W. Spencer, Carlisle
Staniforth, Jno. Kingston-on-Hull
Stanley, Lord, Preston
Stanley, Thomas, Lancashire
Steele, Robt. Weobly
Steele, Rt. Hon. Tho. Chichester
Stephens, Sir Ph. Bt. Sandwich
Steward, Gab. Tucker, Weymouth, &c.
Stewart, Hon. Cs Londonderry Co.
Stewart, Sir Jas. Bt. Donegall Co.
Stewart, Jus. Tyrone County
Stewart, Rt. Hon. Sir John, Bt. Tyrone County
Stewart, Hon. Montgomery, Kircudbright
Stewart, Hon. Wm. Stranraer, &c.
Stopford Vise. Annau, &c.
Strachey, Sir Hen. Bt. Ea. Grin stead
Strahan, Andrew, Warcham
Strange, James, Okehampton
Strutt, Joseph Holden, Malden
Stuart, Lord Wm. Cardiff
Stuart-Wortley, Jas. Archibald. Bossiney
Stuart, Sir Jno Bt. Kincardineshire
Sturges, William, Christchurch
Sudley, Visc. Donegall County
Sullivan, John, Aldborough
Sullivan, Rd. Joseph, Seaford
Sutton, Geo. Bramber
Sutton, Sir Thos. Manners, Knt. Newark
Sykes, Sir Fran. Bt. Wallinford
Symonds, Tho. Powell, Hereford
Tarleton Banasure, Liverpool
Taylor, Chas. Wm. Wells
Temple, Earl, Bucks
Templetown, Ld. St. Edmundsbury
Thellusson, Chas. Evesham
Thellusson, Pet. Isaac, Castle Rising
Thomas, Geo. White, Chichester
Thornton, Henry, Southwark
Thornton, Robt Colchester
Thornton-Sam. Kingston-on-Hull
Thornton, Thos. Grantham
Thynne, Lord Geo. Weotly
Thynne, Lord John, Bath
Tierney, Rt. Hon. Geo. Southwark
Titchfield, Marquis of, Bucks
Tottenham, Cha. jun New Ross
Townshend, Ld. Jno. Knaresboro'
Townshend, Hon. Wm. Aug. Whitchurch
Trail, James, Orford
Trevanion, John, Dover
Troughbridge, Sir Thos. Bt. Yarmouth, Norf.
Tudway, Clement, Wells
Turner, Edm. jun. Midhurst
Turner, Sir G. Page, Bt. Thirsk
Tyrwhitt Drake, Thos. Drake, Agmondesham
Tyrwhitt, Thos. Portarlington
Vansittart, Geo. Berkshire
Vansittart, Nicolas, Old Sarum
Vaughan, Hon. John, Cardigan
Vaughan, Sir Robt. Williams, Bt. Merionethshire
Vereker, Chas. Limeric City
Villiers, Rt. Hon. Jn. C. Dornoc, &c.
Wallace, Rt. Hon. Tho. Hindon
Walpole, Hon. Geo. Derby
Walpole, Hon. Horatio, King's Lyn
Walsh, John Benn, Blechingley
Ward, Hon. Jn. Wm. Worcestersh.
Ward, Robt. Cockermouth
Warren, Rt. Hon. Sir john Borlase, Bt. K. B. & K. C. Nottingham
Watson, Hon. Geo. Canterbury
Welby, Sir W. Eatle. Bt. Grantham
West, Hon. Frederic, Denbigh
Western, Ch. Callis, Malden
Wharton, John, Beverley
Wharton, Rich. Durham City
Whitbread, Samuel, Bedford
White, Matthew, Hythe
Whitmore, John, Bridgenorth
Wickham, Rt. Hon. Wm. Cashell
Wigram, Robt. Fowey
Wilberforce, Wm. Yorkshire
Wilkins, Walter, Radnorshire
Willet, John Willet, New Romney
Williams, Js. Haml. Carmarthensh.
Williams, John, Windsor
Williams, Owen, Marlow
Williams, Sir Rot. Bt. Carnarvonsh.
Williams, Robt. Wootton Basset
Williams, Watkin, Flint
Windham, Rt. Hon. W. St. Mawes
Winnington, Sir Ed. Bt. Droitwich
Wood, Geo. Halemere
Wood, Mark, Gatton
Worcester, Marq. of, Gloucestersh.
Wright, John Atkyns, OxfordCity
Wrottesley, Sir Jno. Bt. Lichfield
Wyndhim, Hen. Pen. Wiltshire
Wyndham, Thos. Glamorgansh.
Wynne, Chas. Watkin Williams, Montgomeryshire
Wynne, Owen, Sligoe Borough
Wynne, Sir Wat. W. Bt. Denbighsh.
Yarmouth, Earl of, Lisburne
Yorke, Hon. Jos. Sid. Ryegate
Yorke, Rt. Hon. Cha. Cambridgesh.
Young, Sir Wm. Bt. St. Mawes
LIST OF HIS MAJESTY'S CABINET MINISTERS AT THE OPENING OF THE SESSION.
Cabinet Ministers.
Duke of Portland
President of the Council.
Lord Eldon
Lord High Chancellor.
Lord Westmorland
Lord Privy Seal.
Right Hon. Henry Addington.
First Lord of the Treasury and Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Prime Minister).
Earl St. Vincent
First Lord of the Admiralty.
Earl of Chatham
Master General of the Ordnance.
Right Hon. Charles Yorke
Secretary of State for the Home Department.
Lord Hawkesbury.
Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.
Lord Hobart
Secretary of State for the Department of War and the Colonies.
Lord Viscount Castlereagh
President of the Board of Controul for the Affairs of India.
Not of the Cabinet.
Right Hon. Charles Bragge
Secretary at War.
Right Hon. George Tierney
Treasurer of the Navy.
Right Hon. Thomas Steele
Joint Paymasters of his Majesty's Forces.
Right Hon. J. Hiley Addington
Lord Auckland
Joint Paymasters General.
Lord Charles Spencer
Nicholas Vansittart, Esq
Secretaries of the Treasury.
John Sargent, Esq.
Sir William Grant
Master of the Rolls.
Hon. Spencer Perceval
Attorney General.
Sir Thomas Manners Sutton
Solicitor General.
PERSONS IN THE MINISTRY OF IRELAND.
Earl of Hardwicke
Lord Lieutenant.
Lord Redesdale
Lord High Chancellor.
Right Hon. W. Wickham
Chief Secretary.
Right Hon. Isaac Corry
Chancellor of the Exchequer.
COBBETT'S Parliamentary Debates,
During the Second Session of the Second Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great-Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom of Great-Britain the Nineteenth, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Sixth Day of October, 1803, and from thence continued, by several Prorogations, to the Twenty-second Day of November, in the Forty-fourth Year of the Reign of King GEORGE the Third, Annoque Domini,
1803–04
1
HOUSE OF LORDS.
November 22, 1803.
This day, at a quarter past three o'clock, his Majesty came down to the House of Peers in the accustomed state, and being seated in his royal robes upon the throne, Mr. Quarme, the Deputy Usher of the Black Rod, was dispatched with a message from his Majesty, commanding the attendance of the House of Commons, who forthwith appeared at the bar, with the Speaker at their head. His Majesty was then pleased to deliver the following most gracious speech from the throne:
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
Since I last met you in Parliament, it has been my chief object to carry into effect those measures which your wisdom had adopted for the defence of the United Kingdom, and for the vigorous prosecution of the war. In these preparations I have been seconded by the voluntary exertions of all ranks of my people, in a manner that, has, if possible, strengthened their claims to my confidence and affection: they have proved that the menaces of the enemy have only served to rouse their native and hereditary spirit; and that all other considerations are lost in a general disposition to make those efforts and sacrifices which the honour and safety of the Kingdom demand at this important and critical conjuncture.—Though my attention has principally been directed to the great object of internal security, no opportunity has been lost of making art impression on the foreign possessions of the enemy. The Islands of St. Lucia, of Tobago, of St. Pierre, and Miquelon, and the settlements of Demerara and Essequibo,
2
Gentlemen of the Mouse of Commons,
I have a perfect reliance on your public spirit for making such provision as may be necessary for the service of the year. The progressive improvement of the revenue cannot fail to encourage you to persevere in the system which has been adopted, of defraying the expenses of the war, with as little addition as possible to the public debt, and to the permanent burthens of the State.—I lament the heavy pressure which, under the present circumstances, must unavoidably be experienced by my people but I am persuaded that they will meet it with the good sense and fortitude which so eminently distinguish their character, under a conviction of the indispensable importance
3
My Lords and Gentlemen,
I have concluded a convention with the King of Sweden, for the purpose of adjusting all the differences which have arisen on the subject of the eleventh article of the treaty of l661 I have directed that a copy of this convention should be laid before you; and yon will, I trust, be of opinion that the arrangement, whilst it upholds our maritime rights, is founded on those principles of reciprocal advantage which are best calculated to maintain and improve the good understanding which happily subsists between the two countries.—In the prosecution of the contest in which we are engaged, it shall be, as it has ever been, my first object to execute as becomes me, the great trust committed to my charge. Embarked with my brave and loyal people in one common cause, it is my fixed determination, if the occasion should arise, to share their exertions and their dangers in the defence of our constitution, our religion, our laws, and independence. To the activity and valour of my fleets and armies, to the zeal and unconquerable spirit of my faithful subjects, I confide the honour of my crown, and all those valuable interests which are involved in the issue of this momentous contest.—Actuated by these sentiments, and humbly imploring the blessing of Divine Providence, I look forward with a firm conviction, that if, contrary to all just expectation, the enemy should elude the vigilance of my numerous fleets and cruizers, and attempt to execute their presumptuous threat of invading our coasts, the consequence will be to them, discomfiture, confusion, and disgrace; and that ours will not only be the glory of surmounting present difficulties, and repelling immediate danger, but the solid and permanent advantage of fixing the safety and independence of the kingdom on the basis of acknowledged strength, the result of its own tried energy and resources."
After his Majesty had left the House, Lord Hawkesbury was introduced by the Earl Marshal and Lord Great Chamberlain in their robes, between Lords Hobart and Auckland, on being created Baron Hawkesbury, and took the oaths and his seat in the House. Lord Westmoreland then moved the first reading of a bill, according to ancient usage, before they proceeded to take into consideration his Majesty's speech. Their Lordships then adjourned during pleasure. After a short interval, the House
4
The Marquis of Sligo
then rose to move an Address lo his Majesty, on his most gracious Speech from the throne, which their Lordships had just heard read, and spoke as follows: My Lords—In calling your Lordships' attention to the speech which has been delivered from the throne, I trust I shall not be considered as arrogating to myself an extraordinary claim to your consideration. Little in the habit of addressing you on such occasions, and not, perhaps, suited to it on any, I shall require much of your indulgence, while I endeavour to express those sentiments to which that speech has given rise; though I am persuaded I feel them only in common with your Lordships, and with all those who have had the opportunity of attending to it. The importance of perfect unanimity at this moment, I feel most strongly, and I trust nothing will fall from me to stand in the way of that most desirable object. We must recollect that we have to contend with an overbearing and vindictive enemy, avowing, as his object, our destruction, and one who we know, by the melancholy experience of Europe, will stop at no means to effect his purposes. If ever there was a period of more importance in the annals of history than another, this is the period. If ever there was a moment for peculiar pride in the name of Briton, more than another, it is at the present moment. If ever there was a period when this nation, long the envy and admiration of the world, could more properly be looked up to for imitation, it is now, when every individual, born to the protection of equal laws, stands forward, without distinction of rank, class, or situation, to shed his blood in defence of that invaluable inheritance. The measures which the prudence of his Majesty's ministers has suggested for the defence of the empire, and which the wisdom of Parliament has adopted, have been outdone by the zeal and patriotism of its inhabitants, and Great-Britain offers itself to the admiration of the world in a novel attitude, a nation of soldiers, not brought together by the terrors of revolutionary laws, not assembled by the unbridled power of a despotic government, not invited by the hopes of plunder, from the destruction of neighbouring nations, but voluntarily stepping forth on the noblest and wisest principles, the possession of an unequalled form of government, a proper sense of its value, and a determination to die in its defence.—France, assisted in her views upon other
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7
The Earl of Limerick
rose to second the Address. Though he fully coincided in the sentiments expressed by the noble Marquis who had just sat down, yet he hoped the House would pardon him, if he felt it necessary to trespass upon their patience, by a few observations upon the speech itself. Their Lordships would observe, that in the subject at present before them, no questions were involved, as to the fitness or unfitness of ministers for the councils of their Sove reign; the topics before them were not masters of party consideration; they were of a comprehensive, general and important kind, and presented themselves to the attention of their Lordships in such a point of view, as induced him to trouble them with a very few observations thereon. The opening part of the Speech from the throne, very properly adverted to that impregnable state of protection, which the unprecedented vigour, energy, and unanimity of the population of the country held forth to an aggressive and unprincipled foe. This was such, (and it was with exultation he had to remark it,) as must make the enemy ever feel what he had to expect, in case he should provoke, by an attack upon its territory, the just vengeance of a nation, armed in defence of its independence, its liberties, and its invaluable constitution. A voluntary armament like the present could not be paralleled in the history of any country; not only with respect to the amount of numbers, but in the instance of the sense, nay, the feelings of the people being so clearly and forcibly expressed. As danger threatened, our spirits had increased; and never had energy more conspicuously distinguished any nation, even during the most arduous emergencies, than in the present contest. He was confident, that should the opportunity offer, of those patriotic bands signalizing themselves in action, they would evince themselves the genuine descendant of those who had so gloriously carried the terrors of the British arms into the heart of France, and bore away the palm of signal and complete victory at Cressy and Polctiers. When had there such a number of voluntary defenders stepped forward to vindicate the cause of their country? If he was rightly informed, there was at least half a million of men in arms, prepared and eager to meet the boasting foe. Indeed the country appeared to him as one vast camp, filled by armed myriads, who, instead of feeling a particle of dismay or apprehension, instead of evincing themselves a "nation of shop-keepers," as they had been tauntingly called by the enemy, ardently wished for nothing
8
9
10
11
new. diss.
[COMMITTEE OF PRIVILEGES]—
Lord Hawkesbury
moved that Lord Walsingham be appointed chairman of the committee of privileges for the present session.
The Lord Chancellor,
in seconding the motion, took an opportunity to pay an handsome compliment to the talents and assiduity which the noble lord, who was the subject of the motion, had displayed during so long a period, in his official capacity of chairman of their lordships commit tees.—The question was put, and the appointment forthwith ordered by their lordships,
nem. diss.
12
Lord Walsingham
then rose, and observed, that he was not in the habit of trespassing upon the attention, or taking up the valuable time of their lordships; but, after what had just fallen from the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, he could not avoid saying a word or two on the occasion. He had to return his thanks to the House for this additional manifestation of their lordships favourable opinion of his official conduct; he trusted he should persevere in that line of conduct which had met their lordships' approbation, which principally consisted in a strict and uniform adherence to the rules and orders of the House, without which the business could not be conducted duly to the honour of the House, or to the advantage of the public.—It was then ordered, on the motion of Lord Hawkesbury, that Lord Walsingham be appointed chairman of the committees of their lordships' House, except in cases where it shall be otherwise directed; and also that his lordship be appointed chairman of the private committees during the present session.—The usual order respecting the committee of privileges was then made, on the motion of Lord Walsingham; as were the several routine orders usually made at the commencement of a session; after which their lordships adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, November 22, 1803.
The House met this day, pursuant to his Majesty's proclamation, for the dispatch of public business. About three o'clock the Deputy Usher of the Black Rod appeared within the bar, and delivered a message from the Lords, desiring the attendance of the House in the House of Peers to hear the speech from the Throne. The Speaker, accompanied by the members present, accordingly attended, in obedience to his Majesty's command. On their return, the Speaker took the chair, and acquainted the House, that, by virtue of the acts authorising him so to do, he had issued his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown, directing him to make out a new writ for the election of a member to serve in parliament for the Borough of Yarmouth, in the County of Southampton, in the room of J. Murray, Esq. deceased; and also another for the County of Gloucester, in the room of the Marquis of Worcester, called to the House of Peers.—Seven members were introduced and took the usual oaths and their seats; among whom were Mr. Yorke, Mr. Bragge, and
13
[KING'S SPEECH.]—
The Speaker
acquainted the House that the House h3d, in obedience to his Majesty's command, attended in the House of Peers, to hear his Majesty's most gracious Speech from the Throne; of which, to prevent mistakes, he had himself obtained a copy. Ho then proceeded to read the Speech from the chair, for which we refer to our account of the proceedings of the Lords. (See p. I.) After the Speaker had finished reading the Speech,
The Hon. Cropley Ashley
rose and spoke as follows. Sir; after having heard the sentiments expressed, and the statements contained in the Speech which has just now been read, it cannot appear out of season for me to congratulate the House on the state of the country as described in that Speech. The spirit, zeal, and unanimity of all classes, and the voluntary exertions of every branch of the community, are unexampled in the annals of any country, and have so effectually provided for the defence and security of the kingdom, as to set all attempts of the enemy to make any impression on our coasts at defiance. I congratulate this House and the nation in general, that the prosperous state of our manufactures, and the great improvement of the public revenue, will enable the government to adhere to that excellent system of carrying on the war without any material addition to (he permanent debt of the nation; a system which, if closely pursued, will infallibly disappoint the hopes of our foe, and render abortive every attempt of the enemy to destroy this country by delay, and to keep it in a constant state of alarm.—From the exertions that every where appear around us, I think the country in a situation of the greatest security; and it is with conscious pride I have observed, that, notwithstanding the extensive and vigorous stem of internal defence that has been adopted, our arms have been carried abroad against the foreign possessions of the enamy. The valuable islands of St. Lucia, Tobago, St. Pierre, and Miquelon, and the settlements of Demarara and Essequibo, have been added to the British empire. The vigilance and wisdom of the administration which planned the expeditions against them, and the zeal, bravery, the forces, by which such va-
14
15
16
17
Mr. Burland.
—Sir, In rising to second the motion of my honourable friend, I find a considerable degree of embarrassment; not proceeding so much from the apprehension of addressing this House, whose indulgence I have before experienced, hut from the momentous crisis in which I am permitted to address you. A crisis, Sir, which whether we consider the general situation of the continent of Europe, sunk and depressed as it is by the predominant influence of one power to the rank and level of a petty German State, or whether we consider the particular situation of this kingdom rearing its head above those clouds of anarchy and despotism which have in succession shed their noxious influence on the globe: in whatever light we view, it, I believe it is a crisis unparalleled in the history of antient, and I am confident unequalled in that of modem times.—At a period like the present. Sir, when preparations are making, the avowed object of which we know to be the destruction of this country, when even at the moment in which I am now speaking, the mediated attack may possibly have commenced on our coasts, I am sure I need not call upon the members of this House for that unanimity on which our salvation depends. Small indeed, I am well aware, is the influence which any argument of mine would produce, but I rely with confidence on the unanimous vote of the House in support of the motion of my honourable friend, because the experience of the last session of Parliament has taught me, that whatever shades of difference there might be in political opinions on speculative or theoretical points, however gentlemen might disagree in their sentiments of past measures, or of proposed plans of defence, yet, whenever the welfare of the King, the country, or the constitution, was at stake, this House possessed but one opinion and one voice.—Let us, then, at the commencement of a session, during which it is probable the fate of this country will be decided, set an exam-
18
19
On all sides, from innumerable tongues,
A dismal, universal hiss—the sound
Of public scorn.
20
21
Mr. Fox.
—Sir, I do not rise with the intention of objecting particularly to the proposed address in consequence of the speech which his Majesty has been most graciously pleased to make to both Houses of Parliament; nor am I disposed to dispute the soundness of the arguments employed by the honourable mover, and seconder of the address. I rise merely to advert to two points; one of which is omitted in the speech, and the other particularly alluded to. The point omitted in the speech is the mediation of Russia: a. subject on which I cannot help thinking, the house had a fair right to expect some communication. Lithe course of the last session of Parliament, when I called the attention of the house to the mediation of (he court of St. Petersbourg, a noble Secretary of State (Lord Hawkesbury), not now in tins house, did, as strongly as language can express, pledge ministers as not only ready to accept of the mediation of Russia, if offered, but, if not offered, directly to solicit it. The noble Lord distinctly pledged himself, that Ministers were not only willing to hear the ideas of the court of Russia, as to the best mode of bringing about an accommodation of the differences betwixt this country and France; but ready to state what their own ideas were of the most practicable means of restoring a good understanding betwixt the two countries.
*
*
22
From all that I have seen, heard, or observed, I have every reason to think that the noble Secretary was sincere in the pledge which he then gave, and that ministers have acted on that declaration. One would have naturally thought, then, that in a speech from the Throne, at the opening of a new session, and after such an interval has taken place, as might afford some grounds of ascertaining how far the application was likely to be successful, his Majesty would have referred to the subject, and put the House in possession of the means of determining how far any negotiations were likely to lead to the result which was in view. I am sensible that this is not the particular day for taking up the consideration of the success or failure of these negotiations; but the information, the want of which I complain of in the speech, will be very necessary, when, oh a future day, it may come to be discussed.—The other point to which I wish to allude, is one particularly referred to in the speech. In that part of the speech which refers to the situation of Ireland, the House are congratulated on the suppression of the late rebellion in that country, and a confident hope is held out of the permanent continuance of tranquillity. From past experience, I cannot easily flatter myself that such a hops will be realized. I can see no reason to think that permanent tranquillity will be established in Ireland while the present system is pursued. In the speech it is asserted, that the leaders of the late rebellion had in view the introduction of French dominion into Ireland, and that the whole plan of the insurrection was founded on the co-operation of a French force, destined to overthrow the British constitution as now established in Ireland. Whatever be the crimes of the men who were the authors of the late rebellion, I wish, in speaking of them, to be guided by justice. But, Sir, have not the leaders of the insurrection most unequivocally disclaimed all idea of a connection with the French Government? Have they not avowed, that they reprobated such a connexion, even with an idea of promoting their own views? Whatever atrocities the rebellion exhibited, and certainly no man
express assurance was given of his readiness to listen to any proposal for restoring the blessings of peace; and he had now to assure the honourable gentleman and the house, that ministers were ready to receive any offer of mediation on the part of Russia, or to offer to the mediation of that power the points in dispute betwixt the two governments—See Political Register, vol, iii. p. 1730.
23
can think or hear with greater horror of those atrocities than I do: I must contend that it is not just to stigmatize the authors of the rebellion with at all leaguing themselves with the French government, in their views of destroying all connection with this country.
A hope
wish,
24
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—I rise, Sir, for the purpose of replying to the observations which have been made by the hon. member, on the speech with which his Majesty has been pleased to address his Parliament this day. Although the hon. member is not inclined to oppose the address, and is disposed to entertain a favourable opinion of the sentiments which generally pervade it, yet it would, he declares, have afforded him more unqualified satisfaction, if the mediation of the court, of Russia, whether successful or not, had been explicitly mentioned in the speech from the Throne; and that the allusion to the insurrection in that part of the united kingdom called Ireland, had been couched in other or more guarded expressions.—Sir, the hon. gentleman has stated, with accuracy, the general import of that pledge, which, during the last session of Parliament, was made by my noble friend, the Secretary of State, whom it has pleased his Majesty to promote to a seat in another assembly. My noble friend did certainly declare, as the hon. gentleman has fairly stated, that his Majesty's ministers were ready to accept, not only now, but at any future time, the mediation of the Emperor Alexander, towards terminating the unhappy and unprovoked hostility in which the British empire was involved; and that for the purpose of convincing all Europe, of the equity of their cause, and the pacific nature of their intentions, they would not only accept it if offered, but that they would even condescend to solicit it. Sir, for the information of the hon. gentleman, I will communicate to him and to this house, that that mediation was offered by the court of Russia, and accepted with readiness and gratitude, on the part of his Majesty's servants; and although discussions of the greatest moment were consequently commenced, yet I am sorry to say, that in their progress they did not assume such a shape as to lead to any probability of an amicable arrangement with France. No man can be more concerned than I am, that the interference of that court has not been attended with that success which the hon. gentleman, on a former occasion, seemed so zealous in his expectation of. I am not, however, at all astonished to find, that the hon. gentleman expresses surprise at not receiving more information relative to this subject, nor do I think the regret he has shewn at finding any account of the issue of the negotiation omitted in his Majesty's speech at all un-
25
26
hope
wish
wish,
hope
27
Sir Francis Burdett.
—I do not rise, Sir, for the purpose of disturbing the unanimity of the House upon the present occasion. I shall vote for the Address. But there is a matter of the greatest importance, connected with that volunteer system which
28
*
29
from house to house throughout those parishes; calling upon those who had already contributed, as well as upon those who had not; giving their opinion of the ability and wealth of the different inhabitants; and advertising them of an intended domiciliary visit to each house by two of the corps; threatening to publish their names at the close of the year; and particularly pointing cut the aged, the infirm, and the women, whose fears may be supposed most easily excited.—Sir, it is more especially my duty to notice this, as it has passed in a county, which I have the honour to represent in
tion.—The Committee, from viewing the present stare of the subscription, as it respects either the whole amount, or the sums given by individuals, are satisfied that many of the inhabitants were not aware of the extent of the necessary expenditure, or of the claims upon them for furnishing the means of it.—striking examples of pecuniary exertions have occurred in almost every part of the kingdom—Many individuals have singly expended several thousand pounds in raising and supporting Volunteer Corps.—Even towards a general Subscription in one county a Nobleman subscribed 2,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
30
this House. It is impossible to foresee to what extent this practice may be carried. That an armed corps should be a deliberative assembly was never thought advisable; but that we should have parochial parliaments through the land, raising money at their will upon the inhabitants, could not be borne for a moment: especially when it is considered, that these same persons undertake to determine the gross amount of the sum to be raised, and the quota of the individuals, and that these same persons are to receive it, to dispose of it, and to partake of it.—Sir, it is the duty of this House
tants need only pay, at present, such part of their subscriptions as may be convenient, leaving it to the Committee to call upon them proportionally for tire remainder, by instalments, as it shall be wanted.—By order of the Committee,
Nov. 1, 1803. JOHN WRIGHT, Secretary.
State of the Fund of the St. Giles and St. George Bloomsbury Volunteer Association.
Amount of Subscriptions, from the 25th of July to the 1st of Nov. 1803
3005
0
0
Expended.
Clothing
1398
6
0
Accoutrements
562
10
0
Drill Serjeants, Advertisements, Drums, Music, &c. &c. &c.
609
4
0
2570
0
0
Further Expenditure necessary to complete the Establishment.
Clothing for 300 Men and Drummers
l800
0
0
Great Coats, 600
630
0
0
Knapsacks, &c.
1050
0
0
Pickers, Br ushers, Drivers, &c.
165
0
0
Accoutrements, 300
450
0
0
Grenadiers Extras
100
0
0
Light Infantry Ditto
100
0
0
Sentry Boxes
100
0
0
Armoury and Magazine
250
0
0
Orderly Room
150
0
0
Printing, Stationary, &c.
100
0
0
Pioneers
90
0
0
Erecting Abutment for Ball-firing, &c
150
0
0
5235
0
0
Current Expenses.
Ammunition
600
0
0
Armourers
600
0
0
Drill Serjeants
600
0
0
18 Drummers
400
0
0
Secretary
Casual Clothing
200
0
0
Incidental Expenses
600
0
0
Clerks, Messenger, &c.
200
0
0
3200
0
0
Total Amount necessary
11005
0
0
Total Amount of Subscriptions
3005
0
0
Deficiency
£8000
0
0
31
especially to meet, in the very beginning, a principle so dangerous: and, of all persons, the administration of the country ought to be the most alarmed at it; since the principle of this measure goes directly and immediately to the destruction, not only of this, but of every kind of government, and tends to the introduction of that anarchy, of which so much has been said to be apprehended. The motive may excuse the individuals; but it does not at all abate the malignity of the principle: for it is well known that many of the most ruinous practices to nations have been begun from good motives and for good purposes.—I have thought it my duty to take the earliest opportunity of noticing and reprobating this measure; and am persuaded ministers will take care, that it shall not be necessary for me to trouble the House hereafter on the subject.—The question was then put Upon the Address, and agreed to
item, con.,
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, November 23, 1803.
The house met at half past two o'clock, in order to proceed to St. James's with the address to his Majesty.—Lord Ashburton took the oaths and his seat; after which their lordships ajourned until Wednesday, and proceeded to St. James's.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, November 23, 1803.
[MISUTES.]—
The Speaker
informed the house that certain petitioning burgesses, complaining of an undue election and return for the borough of Great-Grimsby, in the county of Lincoln, had failed to enter into their recognances within the period prescribed by the act of parliament, and that, consequently, their petition could not be attended to.—The house then proceeded to vote the usual standing orders of the house for grand committees on religion, courts of justice, trade, &c. &c.—Mr. Vansittart moved an instruction to the committee upon expiring laws, that they do inquire what specific laws of a public and general nature have been made by Great Britain or Ireland, or by the parliament of the united kingdom, and which of them, have expired from September, 1802, to the 22d of November 1803, &c and which of them are fit to be
32
[WATERFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE.]—
Mr. Dundas
reported at the bar, from the committee of the Waterford election, that two of the members of that committee, Mr. Ward and Mr. F. W. Grant were absent, and that the other members, after waiting one hoar, ajourned.
The Speaker
informed the house, that since the nomination of the committee Mr. Ward had ceased to be a member of that house, and therefore there could be no further proceeding by the house with respect to him. With respect to Mr. Grant, there was a provision in an act of Parliament for ordering his attendance in the house, to offer his excuse for his absence, or to undergo the censure of the house: a motion might therefore be made for his attendance in the house on a given day, which, of course would not be a distant one—Mr. Dundas therefore moved, "that Francis William Grant, Esq. do attend in his place on Friday next."—After a few observations from the chair, upon the regularity of the motion, and the usual practice of the house on similar occasious, the motion was put and carried.
[BOSTON ELECTION FETITIOM.]—
Mr. Ellison
adverted to the petition of John Ogle, Esq. complaing of an undue election and return for the borough of Boston, in the county of Lincoln, against Mr. Fydell, the present sitting member. He desired that the entry on the journals respecting this petition, might be read; which was accordingly done. He then desired that an entry on the journals in the year 1744, relative to the case of a petitioner who had been allowed seven days time to give in his qualification, on account of his being beyond seas at the time he was served with notice to do so, which he said was precisely the case of the present sitting member, Mr. Fydell; which entry being read, he moved, "that Mr. Fydell be allowed seven days from this present day, in order to prepare and lay before the house, a particular account of his qualification to be admitted as a member."
33
The Speaker
entered into a foil explanation of the case. He reminded the house of the jealousy with which they were always actuated in matters of this nature. Yet he was well aware that laudable as that jealousy was, it would never stand in the way of justice and equity when they could be fairly attended without prejudice to either party. It was determined, by an order of the house, that when the qualification of candidates was called in question, the particulars of that qualification should be produced by him within fifteen days after the complaint of his wanting it, was made against him. The usual notice, it appears, had been sent to Mr. Fydell, in the present case, but not complied with; and the reason adduced for his non-compliance was his indispensible absence beyond sea. A precedent, similar to the present case, occured in the year 1744. It respected also a naval officer who was necessarily absent on the service of his country; and the house then judged it fit to extend the time. Should the house be now inclined to grant the same indulgence, they would agree to the motion made by the honourable gent.—Mr. Ellison's motion was then put and agreed to.
[RENEWED ELECTION PETITIONS.]—
The Speaker
called the attention of the house to the renewal of petitions respecting contested elections, and intimated that they should be brought forward in the order of their priority, as they stood last session. Those of the fifth class were then brought forward; among the first of which were the petitions for Middlesex, Midhurst, and the Borough of Southwark.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
then rose to suggest the propriety of deferring the considerations of these petitions till after the Christmas recess. Should it be the pleasure of the house to adopt that suggestion, it should be his wish to pursue the same plan as that adopted last year, viz. that an order should be made for a call of the house, and that two petitions should be ballotted for on two days of each week. The house must be sensible how inconvenient it might be to enforce a call of the house at the present moment, and under the present circumstances of the country. Under that impression he had no doubt but that they would see the propriety of postponing the consideration of those petitions till the 2d of February, after the usual recess. The business which was likely to call together a full attendance would most probably be brought forward at that period; neither would the arrangement he was anxious for, interfere in the least with the
34
[ADDRESS.]—
The Hon. Cropley Asbley
brought up the report of the address proposed to be carried by the house to the foot of the throne, in return for His Majesty's most gracious speech delivered yesterday to both houses of parliament. The address was read a first time, and on the motion that this address be now read a second time,
Mr. Windham
rose and addressed the chain as follows:
35
myself
Angustuli
36
*
37
38
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, November 24, 1803.
[MINUTFS.]—
This day the Speaker cams to the house at half past two, according to the adjournment of the preceding day. Very few members, however, gave their attendance, and at twenty minutes past three, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer arrived, there were not above thirty members present. The de>pair of making a house was at this time very great. At length, about a quarter before four, Mr. Serjeant, who had been sent in quest of members, arrived with the member necessary to enable the speaker to take the chair, several of whom had been called out from the drawing room for that purpose.—Lord Charles Somerset appeared at
39
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, November 25th, 1803.
[MINUTES]—
As soon as the house met, the Speaker stated that he, accompanied by several members, waited yesterday on His Majesty, to present the address voted by the house in reply to His Majesty's speech: to which His Majesty was pleased to give the following most gracious answer:—"Gentlemen, I return yon my warmest thanks for this dutiful and affectionate address. Such a declaration of your sentiments at the present moment cannot fail to afford me the highest satisfaction. I have the most perfect reliance on the continuance of your support and on the zealous exertions of my faithful subjects, to bring the contest, in which I am engaged, to a successful and honourable issue."—This answer was ordered to be entered on the Journals.—A new writ was ordered for the election of a representative to serve in parliament for the town of Rye, in the room of Lord Hawkesbury, called up to the house of peers; and a writ was also ordered for the Royal Boroughs of Inverness, etc. in the room of Cumming Gordon, esq. who. since his election, has accepted the stewardship of the Chiltern Hundreds.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day, for the House to resolve itself into a committee for granting a supply to His Majesty, and that so much of His Majesty's most gracious speech as referred to his reliance on his faithful commons for o supply, be referred to said committee.—The house having resolved itself into the committee, Mr. Hobhouse in the chair, that part of His Majesty's speech was read, and the committee came to a resolution that a supply be granted to His Majesty.—The house was
40
[WATERFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE.]—
Mr. C. Dundas,
at the bar, reported from the committee appointed to determine the merits of the petitions complaining of an un due election and return for the city of Waterford, that, pursuant to the permission of the house, that committee had adjourned from Wednesday to this day. That they had met consequently at three o'clock, when, finding that Francis William Grant, Esq. did not at tend, they had set for an hour, and then ad journed to half past four, directing the chair man to report the same to the house—The report was ordered to be brought up.—Mr. C. Dundas, as chairman of the committee, then moved, that the said F. W. Grant, Esq. be discharged from further attendance on that committee. In laying the grounds for this motion, he hoped the house would excuse him for stating briefly the circumstances of the case. It would be in the recollection of the house, that previous to the recess, a commission had been sent to Ireland for the purpose of taking evidence, which commission had been returned with the minutes of the evidence taken before the commissioners; upon a due consideration of which the committee was to decide the merits of the petitions. It would also be in the recollection of the house, that towards the close of last session, an application had been made to the house, by the consent, and for the convenience of all parties, for permission to adjourn all further proceedings till the second day of the present session; which permission the house hid thought fit to grant, and the committee had adjourned accordingly. This was a point upon which any member of the committee could not be ignorant, as it must have been equally known to all. On the second day of
41
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
hoped the house would not accede to the motion, unless very cogent reasons should be assigned for the absence of the hon. member. To discharge a member from his attendance on a committee, was an indulgence which the house never granted but upon very substantial grounds, and unless some conclusive reasons should be assigned in the present instance, he should feel himself under the necessity of dissenting from the motion.
Mr. Charles Grant
begged to be indulged, while he stated in justification of the hon. member what he knew of the cause of his absence. The hon. member was at present on duty with his regiment, which having been lately raised, required all his care and attention. He had not been aware of the order of the house which authorised election committees to continue, notwithstanding a prorogation of parliament, and had neglected to attend under an impression that such committees were necessarily dissolved at the end of a session. This was a fact which he could confidently state, as he had himself received a letter some weeks since from the hon. member desiring to be informed on the subject, which information he was not at that time competent to give.
The Speaker
observed that there were two distinct questions for the house to consider: first, whether it should be its pleasure, for the furtherance of justice, to enable the committee to proceed, by discharging Mr. Grant from further attendance; secondly, what conduct it would be its pleasure to adopt, wish respect to the hon. member who had absented himself from his duty. These questions were wholly distinct, and it would be for the house to determine in what manner it should think proper to dispose of them. There was a case in point on the journals. It was the case of Mr. Booth Grey, who,
42
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
concurred with the sentiments that had fallen from the chair. He had no objection to discharge the hon. member from further attendance, in order to enable the committee to proceed, provided it could not operate to limit the discretion of the house, as to the conduct it may think proper to adopt with respect to the defaulter. He, however, submitted, whether the object of the motion might not be attained as well by wording it differently, that is, "to enable the committee to proceed, notwithstanding the absence of this member."
Mr. Ward
concurred in the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and observed that the object of the hon. chairman would be fully effected by so wording his motion, which had been drawn up in the other form with an unintentional inaccuracy.
Mr. Tierney
did not think the case of Mr. Grey applicable in the present instance. In that case Mr. Grey had appeared by letter before the house, in the present there was no appearance whatever: and he trusted that for the regularity of the proceedings of the House, they would not suffer such a resolution to be placed on their journals, without being accompanied by a good and sufficient reason for the ground on which they had adopted it.
Mr. Bragge
agreed with his hon. friend (Mr. Tierney) that such a proceeding should not appear on their journals without some document to shew why it had been adopted. He submitted to the hon. member (Mr. Charles Grant), whether he might not put what he had already stated in that form to the house, whereby it would be justified in agreeing to the consequent preceedings.—Mr. C. Grant's statement was then entered on the journals, as the ground on which the house assented to the following motions: 1st. That F. W. Grant, Esq. be discharged from farther attendance on the committee. 2d. That the committee be enabled to proceed notwithstanding his absence; and, 3d That F. W. Grant, Esq. be ordered to at tend in his place on Wednesday tha seventh day of December next.
43
[DESERTION OF SEAMEN.]—
Mr. Jarvis
rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, to move for leave to bring in a bill to prevent the desertion and escape of petty officers, seamen, and others, from his Majesty's service, by means or under colour of any civil or criminal process. He should detain the house, but a very short time, in stating the grounds and principles of the measure he proposed to bring forward. There were too many convincing proofs, that the processes of law had been frequently perverted, for the purpose of enabling individuals to escape from the, naval service, in which they had been employed. It would not be necessary for him to trespass on the attention of the house, by enumerating the various instances of fraudulent arrests for civil actions, or the many pretended criminal charges, under colour of which, seamen had been removed from the authority of their naval officer, and then set at large, to the manifest injury of his Majesty's service. The measure, he proposed, would correct this abuse altogether and he felt great satisfaction in assuring the house, that it would not interfere with the rights, nor infringe the privileges of any description of men. It would leave the seaman, who might be improperly impressed, in the same situation as to his habeas corpus, m which he now stands; and it would not weaken the claim of creditors, nor trench upon their just and legal rights. It would leave the arrested seaman, in the same situation precisely, as to service, in which lie stood before the arrest, as its principal object would be to secure his return to the service to which he may have belonged, as soon as the action should be satisfied. The principal object of the measure he meant to introduce, was to make sheriffs responsible for the return of such seamen as should be arrested under their authority, to the service, instead of being left at large on their release from the arrest. It was to be obligatory on the sheriff, in such a case, to convey the seaman, within a reasonable time, and for an adequate compensation, to the nearest port, and give him up to the port-admiral, or regulating captain, commanding there. The consequence of this regulation would be an essential benefit to the seaman, who would be conveyed back, to his ship free of any expense. With regard also to seamen fraudulently arrested, the bill would have a most salutary effect, as it would effectually prevent my future perversion of the process of the law, to cover the desertion of persons Serving in his majesty's navy. These were the leading features of his measure, and, he trusted, the house would concur with him in
44
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, November 28, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
The Speaker took the chair at half after three.—Col. Hayne then presented a petition for leave to bring in an inclosure bill, which was granted.—Mr. Foster appeared at the bar from the Exchequer office, with an account of the net produce of the taxes of the current year, ending the 10th of October. The account was ordered to lie on the table, and a sufficient number of copies to be printed for the use of the members.—Sir C. Bunbury presented a petition from the debtors confined in the county gaol of Suffolk.—Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. W. Dundas gave notice of his intention to bring in a bill to explain the acts relating to statute labour in Scotland, with respect to the construction of which, doubts subsisted. He declined mentioning a particular day, stating that it was his intention to write to the representatives for Scotland, and to fix such a day, as would be convenient to them, for the discussion of the subject.—Lord Castlereagh gave notice of his intention to move, on Wednesday, for leave to bring in a bill, relative to the bonding of East-India goods.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee of supply. The resolution for granting a supply was agreed to
nem. con.
viz.;
45
[INCOME TAX.]—
Mr. Alderman Combe
wished to be informed by the Secretary of the Treasury, whether there was any intention to bring in a bill to simplify the act of last session, relating id this tax. Much difficulty was, at present felt, in making out the returns; and it was therefore extremely desirable, that it should be decidedly stated, whether any alteration was to take place in the standard by which the return was to be regulated, and the manner in which it was to be made, as the act now stood.
Mr. Vansittart
said, he had no intimation from his majesty's ministers, that any alteration was to be made in the act alluded to by the worthy Alderman. On the contrary, he understood it to be their intentions, that, for the present, the returns should be made, according to the act, as it now stood 5 and that this should be continued for one year, in order to afford a full and fair trial to the present system. The whole of its faults and deficiencies, which would then be perfectly understood, may be then corrected by one bill, which would be much better than to trouble Parliament at present with separate bills on every supposed and ill-conceived difficulty or imperfection.
Mr. Alderman Combe
expressed himself satisfied with the answer given by the honourable gentleman.
[BARRACKS]—
Admiral Berkeley
wished to know, whether the expense of the barracks now building, was to be included in the estimates just moved for.
Mr. Vansittart
said, the expense of barracks was not one of those included in the estimates, which he had moved the house to order.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, November 29, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. Hurst
brought up the report of the Committee on the expiring
46
Robert Buxton
Vansittart
Steele
Tierney
Adams
Chancellor of the Exchequer
Corry
[PRIVATE PETITIONS.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he thought it necessary to fix upon some specific day, beyond winch private petitious would not be received by the house, in order to prevent the inconvenience which frequently took place in consequence of the too long extension of the lime generally allowed for that purpose. He wished, however, to put off such limitation to such a day as should leave no room for complaints or excuse to any person desiring to petition, and he at the same time was anxious that it should be generally understood that no further time would be allowed. This arrangement he was urged to propose from a recollection of the trouble too often occasioned by the great overflow of private business at that period of the sessions, when a quantity of important public affairs was to be at-
47
[WATERFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE.]—
Mr. Deverell,
a member of the Waterford Election Committee, rose to move that James Pedley, Esq. one of the members of the said committee, be excused his attendance on that committee, as his presence was necessary elsewhere, on accout of the death of a near relation, and private business of a very urgent nature.
The Speaker
informed the hon. member that the usual mode of proceeding on such occasions, was, that the member who moved the leave of absence should come forward to the table, and state in writing the grounds upon which he rested his motion. That he should verify these grounds upon oath, and that then the house would decide on the propriety of acceding to the motion.—The hon. member having accordingly approached the table, and deposed upon oath the grounds of his motion,
The Speaker
acquainted the house, that the grounds of the motion were, that James Pedley, Fsq. was called to Jamaica by very urgent private affairs. That he had taken his passage on board a vessel that was to sail from Portsmouth for that island, and that he had received a letter intimating to him that the ship was ready to sail without delay.
Mr. Deverell,
after stating these grounds, moved, that James Pedley, Esq. have leave of absence from further attendance on the Waterford Committee.—On the question being put.
The Attorney General
rose, and observed how painful a task it must be to any man to oppose a motion supported on such grounds as those upon which the present motion was rested. But the house must feel how essential it was to pause before a precedent of such importance should be established. He certainly could not now pretend to make up his mind upon the question, and should feel it his duty to take advice upon the point, before he gave it his assent. The learnedgent. then proceeded to observe that the Waterford Committee was already reduced to twelve—that should the leave of absence now solicited, be granted, the number would be eleven, within two of the number absolutely necessary for prosecuting the business before the committee. Thus might a complete suspension of the most essential business of the House of Commons be brought entirely at a stand; be-
48
[BARRACKS.]—
Admiral Berkeley,
seeing the Secretary at War in his place, rose to ask a question respecting the mode in which the house were to be informed of the expense of the barrack department. When he had inquired into this matter yesterday, an hon. gent. [Mr. Vansittart] had not been able to give him an answer which he could consider satisfactory. What he desired to be informed of was, whether the expense of the barrack establishment was mentioned in the general estimates to be laid before the house. The contracts for the building of barracks were enormous, particularly in the part of the country (Sussex) where he had lately resided. At a time when the general expenses of the country were so great, it was of importance to have the expense of contracts fully considered. With the view of bringing the matter under consideration, it was, however, previously necessary that the point to which he had referred should be explained.
The Secretary at War
[Mr. Bragge] could not at present give a decided opinion in what manner the estimates for the barrack department would be brought forward. He could mention, however, generally, that it was not intended to include them in the estimates for the expense of the army. As to the amount of the contracts, he should only observe that they were formed on principles of as strict economy as government could obtain. It was not to be supposed that, in the present circumstances of the country such works could be executed at as cheap a rate as in other periods. Labour had necessarily increased in price, and the difficulty of procuring workmen to complete the works with sufficient celerity naturally enhanced the demands of those who contracted with government.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, November 30, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
Their lordships met this day pursuant to adjournment.—The Lord Chancellor informed the house, that his Majesty had been pleased to return a most gracious answer to their lordships' address,
49
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Wednesday, November 30, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
Colonel Stewart
took the oaths and his seat.—The Speaker acquainted the house, that the petitions complaining of undue elections, and the returns to the boroughs of Hull, Leominster, Shaftesbury, and Boston, had not been renewed in the present session of Parliament, pursuant to the provisions of the 28th of his present Majesty: and that he had certified to his Majesty's court of exchequer, that the recognisances in these cases had been forfeited.—General Bartlett brought up an enclosure bill, which was ordered to be read a first time.—Mr. Manning brought up the report of the committee to whom the petition of the London Dock Company had been referred, and obtained leave to bring in a bill to allow the said company to raise by loan, or otherwise, a sum of 500,000l. in addition to their original capital of 1,200,000l.—Sir P. Stephens, in a Committee of Supply, moved, that it be the opinion of the committee, that 100,000 seamen, including marines, be voted for the year 1804.—That a sum not exceeding 2,405,000l. be granted to his Majesty, for wages for these 100,000 men, for thirteen lunar months, at the rate of 1l. 17s. per min per month; that a sum not exceeding 2,470,000l. be granted for victuals for them for thirteen lunar months, at the rate of 1l. 18s. per man per month; that a sum not exceeding 3,900,000l. be granted for Wear and tear of ships for that complement of men for thirteen lunar months at the rate of 3l. per man per month; that a sum not exceeding 325,000l. be granted for ordnance for the sea service, for that complement of men for thirteen lunar months, at the rate of 5s. per man per quarter.—The resolutions were all agreed to; and the house being resumed, the report was ordered to be received to morrow.—Mr. Secretary Yorke gave notice, that he should on Friday next, move, for leave to bring in
50
[EAST-INDIA BONDS.]—
Lord Castle reagh,
pursuant to his notice on a former day, rose to submit his motion to the house, on the subject of the East-India Company's bonds. The house would be aware of the importance of the measure he had to propose inasmuch as the value of the East-India Company's capital was materially influenced by the circumstances under which their securities were circulated in the market. The object of the bill he meant to bring forward, would be to place India bonds, as nearly as possible, on the same footing as Exchequer bills; and the operation of it, of course, would extend to two points, in which they differed from such government securities. The first point related to the manner in which the duty charged under the property tax act was levied on income, arising from such property, which rendered it less desirable to the holder, and of course, tended to depreciate its value. As the tax was levied under the provisions of that act, the directors were authorised to deduct the shilling in the pound from the interest payable on India bonds; so that, whatever may be the income of the holder, the full amount was in this instance to be levied, even though he should not possess 150l. per annum. Such a mode of levying the tax> operated directly to diminish the convenience of such property, and consequently to depreciate its value. 1l was, however, to be admitted, that the party had a remedy by an application to the commissioners for an abatement in every case, where his rate of income, or other circumstances, should entitle him to such abatement. But, when it was considered how onerous and operose such application must prove to individuals, he trusted the house would not object to the principle for simplifying the mode of col-
51
[BANK RESTRICTION BILL]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
after moving, "that the several acts imposing a restriction on the issue of cash in the payments made by the
52
Mr. Jekyll.
—Sir; I do not rise to oppose I the motion of the right Don. Gent. but to direct his attention, and that of the house, to the lamentable state to which the public are reduced by the want of circulating specie. The shameful practice of hoarding up cash, has been carried to such an excessive pitch, that it is with great difficulty, specie can be procured for the common purposes of life. I am sorry to observe the prevalence of this ungenerous feeling, at a crisis, which calls for every possible exertion; and, I am assured, from the respectable authority of a principal banking-house, that, if the practice be net put a stop to, bankers
53
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
agreed with, the hon.gent. that the evil of which he complained, but too certainly existed; and assured him, that it had been under the consideration of his Majesty's government. He admitted that the hon.gent. had commented justly on the baseness of such a practice, at such a crisis. The remedy, however, rested with individuals, who might easily correct a practice, that was as inconsistent with public spirit, as it was with the duty of a good citizen.—The motion was then put, and leave given to bring in the bill. After which the Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, "that there be laid before the house an account of the amount of Bank of England notes in circulation on the 1st of June, 1st of August, 1st of October, and 25th of November, 1803; distinguishing the amount of the value of those below 5l." Ordered.
[WATERFORD ELECTION COMMITTEE.]
Mr. Deverell
moved the order of the day, for renewing the debate on the motion for excusing Mr. Pedley from his attendance on the Waterford committee.
The Speaker
said, he conceived it to be his duty to state to the house, that affairs of an urgent nature having called the hon.gent. mentioned in the motion, to the island of Jamaica, and that the gentleman having long since taken his passage, it was moved that he obtain leave of absence from the committee on the Waterford election, on
* The following is the circumstance to which the hon. member alluded:—In consequence of the great inconvenience experienced at Portsmouth from the scarcity of cash, a meeting was held, pursuant to advertisement, at the Guildhall of that place, on the 22d of November. The mayor presided; and, after some discussion on the means of alleviating the difficulties and inconveniences so, seriously felt at Portsmouth and Portsea, for the want of gold and silver for the purposes of trade, it was unanimously resolved, that dollars should be admitted into temporary currency, at 4s. 9d. each, but that no person should engage to take more than four in one payment; and French crowns at 5s. and half crowns at 2s. 6d.
54
Mr. Deverell
rose. He recapitulated what he had said on the preceding evening. He stated farther, that the hon.gent. alluded to had spent seventeen or eighteen years in the island of Jamaica, and had only lately left it. It was scarcely probable, therefore, that a man in such circumstances should have left his affairs in such a situation, as not again to require his personal presence. The hon.gent. entered further into a minute discussion of the observations of the Attorney General on the preceding evening, and endeavoured to obviate that right hon. gentleman's objections. He stated, that it would be a very hard case, indeed, if gentlemen should be excluded from attendance on their own private and most interesting affairs; affairs in which their happiness and personal respectability were deeply implicated, merely because they had been appointed on a committee, the business of which might be otherwise executed without, injury to the public. He appealed to the feelings of the house. Was it a case to which anygent. present would wish, to submit. He alluded to a precedent, where nine out of fifteen had sat and transacted the busines of an election committee, whereas even in case of the hon. gentleman's absence, there would still, according to the Attorney General, be eleven on the Water-ford committee.
The Attorney General
rose. It was far, he said, from his intention to oppose the private interests of any member of that; house, and in regard to the gentleman alluded to, he would be the last to throw any obstruction in his way. So much was this the case indeed, he said, that if the question, were at this moment put, it would be more agreeable to find that the gentleman should obtain leave of absence than that he should not. To be refused, indeed, in such circumstances, he thought would be a very hard case; and let it be brought home to the feelings of any gentleman here present, he was as sensible as the hon.gent. who, spoke last, that no one could deny the force of his argument. The hon.gent. had stated that he had said the whole of the business would be at a stand, should more of the members be absent than now were. This was not directly the idea he had expressed. He had meant to say, that if one, two, or three, were permitted to absent themselves upon business, others, might claim the, same privilege, and of course no reliance could he placed upon any committee ap-
55
Mr. W. Dundas
rose, and requested that the house would pause, before it should determine in a case of such importance, where they had nothing before them, but the general assertion of an individual, to direct their judgment. Suppose, he said, I wish to go to Scotland? If you establish a precedent of this kind, will it not be natural for me to plead business, and to direct your attention to this very precedent, which you are about to create?
Mr. Bragge
observed, that it must be in the recollection of the house, that there was no precedent in England that could apply to this motion, and as committees for the trial of Irish elections were now in this country, no arguments could be adduced on the present question, but those of expediency only. It therefore remained with the house to establish or not, as they should think proper, a precedent on the present occasion.
The Speaker,
before he put the question, stated to the house, the number of precedents of absence, granted to members, from committees, to be eight; four of which, were for total absence, in consequence of the death of near relations. Of the other four, two were for private business, and but for two days; and the committees were in both cases adjourned, till the expiration of the two days. The remaining two were, first, the case of the Okehampton petition Mr. Pelham, one of the members of the committee for trying which, was also water bailiff to the court of sewers, and had obtained a total release from attendance on the committee, in consequence of his presence being essential to the discharge of his other duties.
56
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, December 1, 1803.
Their lordships met at the usual hour-Certain accounts, relative to the bounties granted by Queen Anne, were laid on the table. The house then went into a committee of privileges. Strangers were ordered to withdraw, and soon after an adjournment took place.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, December 1, 1803
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. Smith
informed the house, that his Majesty had been waited upon with the address of this house, and had ordered the proper officers to prepare and lay before the house, the several estimates accordingly.—Sir P. Stephens presented estimates of the expense of maintaining prisoners of war, sick and in health; also an estimate of the expense of transport service, for the year 1804. These estimates were ordered to lie on the table; and Sir P Stephens gave notice, that he should move them in the committee of supply to morrow.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the committee of supply. The resolutions were agreed to,
nem. con.
57
[STEPENDIARY CURATES BILL.]—
Sir William Scott
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to encourage the residence of stipendiary curates. It would, he said, be in the recollection of gentlemen, that a bill had been brought forward on this subject last year, which had passed that house, but was rejected in another place, on account of a money provision, which had been annexed to it, of such a nature as to be conceived inconsistent with the forms of that place. He had the satisfaction to state, that it was not now necessary to annex to the bill any such provision, as intimation had been given, that it was intended to bring forward a separate measure, for the purpose of providing, in a less objectionable way, for those of that deserving class of men, the stipendiary curates, who should be displaced, by the operation of the bill for enforcing the residence of the clergy. The bill, which he should propose, would, therefore, be the same with that which the house had passed in the last session, with the addition of a clause, which would facilitate its operation, and the omission of the clause, in consequence of which, the former bill had been rejected in the upper house. If leave should be given to bring in the bill, his intention was, that it should be read a first and second time, as soon as the forms would admit, and then printed and left some time for consideration.—Leave being given, the bill was accordingly brought in, and read a first time, and
58
pro forma,
[CURATES RELIEF BILL.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
(who was not in the house when Sir William Scott made the above motion) said, he understood that a motion had just been made, and leave given, to bring in a bill similar to that of last session, to encourage the residence of stipendiary curates. It would be in the recollection of gentlemen, that in the progress of the former bill, a motion had been made, for the house to go into a committee, to consider of the propriety of making compensation to such curates as should be deprived of their cures by the bill for enforcing the residence of the clergy. The provision, which the committee thought it adviseable to make, had been incorporated with the bill, and the bill had been rejected in the other house as informal, it was now designed, to bring forward a plan, for the relief of these deserving men, in a separate bill. He should therefore move, "that the house should tomorrow, resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider of the expediency of affording a temporary relief to such curates as have been or shall be displaced, in consequence of the act of last session, for enforcing the residence of the clergy." He was authorised to state, that the proposition had the consent of his Majesty.
[FORTIFICATION OF LIVERPOOL.]—
Mr. Dent
moved for leave to bring up a petition from the merchants of Liverpool, praying for leave, to bring in a bill, to enable I hem to fortify their harbour and town at their, own expense.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the petition was recommended by his Majesty, so far as the crown was concerned.—The petition was accordingly brought up and read. It stated, that the commander in chief, and other general officers of that district, had represented the harbour and town of Liverpool to be in a very inadequate state of defence. The mayor, bailiffs, and other officers of the corporation, having, on their part, offered to raise a great portion of the necessary fortifications at their own expense, the merchants wished to con tribute to carry the plan into full effect, so that floating batteries may be stationed across the mouth of the harbour, and by erecting batteries on such points of the coast as were thought to require fortification. For this purpose voluntary donations had been sub-
59
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that though some of the gentlemen near him had communicated to him the substance of the petition, he was not acquainted with the form of it, till he had heard it read. If he had been aware of the words, in which it was expressed, he would not have exercised in its favour, the discretion which his Majesty had vested in him, to give the approbation of the crown where he should think it called for. What were the avowed designs of the enemy, referred to in the petition; and what the zeal and spirit of the merchants of Liverpool to resist these designs, which he had no doubt were as great as those of any other class of his majesty's subjects, were matter, into the discussion of which, be was not now disposed to enter. There were, however, words in the petition, which, if the house should order a bill according to the petition, would render that bill objectionable. The petition alluded to works to be raised for the defence of the harbour and town of Liverpool; the house would not countenance the raiding of any works, without the express order of the King. He gave every credit to the zeal and public spirit, from which the petition originated. This remark, he was called upon to make, by his not being aware of the particulars of the petition when he gave, his Majesty's consent; a defect which the house itself would correct, and which it would allow him to supply. He recollected an instance of a similar petition in 1798. He had not then objected, for he could not make any objection; but his sentiments were such as he now slated, and he was glad to find they had the approbation of the chair. [The Speaker appeared by signs to coincide in the sentiment of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.] It would be for the house to decide, whether it would sanction the precedent then established.
Mr. Creevey
thought it never had been conceived by the inhabitants of Liverpool, that their town and harbour were particularly in want of fortifications. During the last war, and all former wars, they looked upon themselves as perfectly secure; but now the commander in chief of their district (Prince "William of Gloucester) found out that Liverpool was a very vulnerable place, and very much in danger of attack. If, contrary to his own judgment and that of many others,
60
Mr. Dent
moved, that the petition be referred to a committee, to consider the matter thereof, and to report the same as it should appear to them to the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
begged to be understood, not to pledge himself to the measure, by giving his Majesty's consent, so far as his Majesty was concerned. He had given it thus qualified, in order not to debar the petition from coming before the house.
Mr. Dent
said, the measure proposed in the petition, had certainly the sanction of the majority of the most respectable merchants of Liverpool. The town had already raised a considerable sum by subscription. Twenty thousand pounds had been raised, but that was not sufficient; it was to supply the deficiency, that the measure stated in the petition was resorted to. If assistance was necessary, he was sure, though he had no pledge, that it would be afforded. It would have been highly indecent in the town, when informed by so high an authority as its commander in chief, and the general officers under him, not to shew the greatest alacrity to come forward in the most liberal manner.—The petition was referred to a committee.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, December 2nd, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
On the motion of the Duke of Norfolk, the Zouch peerage was ordered to be taken into further consideration on the first Tuesday in February.—On the motion, of Lord Walsingham, the Rous peerage was ordered to be taken into consideration on the third Tuesday in the same month.
[PAROCHIAL CLERGY.]—
The Duke of Norfolk
gave notice, that it was his intention to submit to the consideration of the house, a bill for preventing the arrest of parochial clergymen, while actually engaged in the duties of their respective cures: a bill, for their relief, had been introduced in that house last session, but had not been entertained, on the idea that it was to be esteemed, a money bill. Such a bill, however, was now pending in the other house, and he
61
HOUSE OF COMMON'S.
Friday, December 2, 1803.
[MINUTES]—
Mr. Wharton,
from the Bank of England, presented at the bar, "an account of the number and amount of bank notes in circulation on the 1st of June, the 1st of August, the 1st of October, and the 25th of November, I803, distinguishing those under £5." Ordered to he on the table, and to be printed.—On the motion of Sir W. Scott, the stipendiary curates bill was read a second lime; committed
pro forma,
62
l.
s.
d.
63
[CURATES RELIEF BILL.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
moved the order of the day, that the house do now resolve itself into a committee, to consider of the most effectual and expedient mode of affording a temporary relief to curates, who might be deprived of their cures, by the operation of the clergy residence act, passed last session.
Sir Robert Buxton
expressed his opinion, that this was a business which deserved the most serious attention of the house. Nobody, said the honourable baronet, can feel more than I do, the inconveniencies to which that valuable body of men, the stipendiary curates, may for a time be subjected, if no relief can be granted them by the legislature. But whilst I look on this side, of the question, and admit the expediency of affording relief to these men, who must otherwise labour under considerable difficulties, I ought not to neglect to glance a little at the other side, and observe the circumstances that form more than a counter-balance to the necessities of the curates, and that is the necessities of the country. In the present situation of the country, so burthened with taxes, to support the arduous contest in which we are engaged, nothing can excuse a compliance with an application of this sort, but the most absolute necessity. In the present instance, I am by no means satisfied, that such a necessity does exist. The clergy, who before kept curates, but who are now compelled to reside on their livings, may very well spare a maintenance for those who were in the habit of performing the duty of their functions, until another provision shall occur. The clergy are certainly able to afford this expense, as it is notorious, that the value of their livings have of late received a very ample increase. These few observations, I have thought it my duty to throw out at present; at the same time pledging myself, that whenever any subject of expenditure, that is not indispensably necessary, does come before the house in the present circumstances of the country, I shall uniformly and strenuously object to it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
agreed, that nothing could be more commendable than the cautious jealousy expressed by the hon. baronet, respecting the application of the public money. He was anxious, however, that the house should rightly understand the object of the present motion. It was merely meant to do away an informality which has crept into a similar bill, brought forward last session, even after the commencement of
64
l.
l.
l.
[EXCHESUER BILLS.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
in a committee of ways and means, drew the attention of the committee to the notice which he had given yesterday, of his intention to move this day, for leave to issue exchequer bills to the amount of five million. He stated, that he had a satisfaction in mentioning, what he had no doubt the committee would feel a pleasure in hearing, that this motion, if agreed to, was the only application that would be made, for any supply, until a very advanced period of the session. He had also to observe with pleasure, that all the outstanding bills of 1802 were now paid off and that those only were in circulation, that were issued on the credit
65
l.
[SUSPENSION OF HABEAS CORPUS ACT IN IRELAND.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke.
I rise, Sir, in consequence of a notice which I gave a few days ago, for leave to bring in two bills to continue two acts; the one for suspending the Habeas Corpus Act, and the other for the re-enactment of Martial Law in Ireland. The house may be assured, that it is with the sincerest regret for the circumstances which render this measure necessary, that I now come forward to perform this painful duty. I am sorry to be obliged to propose any measure that may trench upon the liberies of the subject, or any of those blessings which this country justly values at so high a rate. But, Sir, it is the misfortune of the times in which we are destined to live, that we are not permitted to enjoy our lives, our liberties, or our possessions, without being daily called upon to sacrifice some part of our privileges in order to preserve the remainder, to sacrifice the best blood of the country in support of the contest in which we are engaged, and to abridge our liberties in order to preserve the existence of liberty itself. But this is no more than our ancestors often thought proper to do. There exists, however, this lamentable difference, that the periods during which it was necessary to resort to measures of this sort, were extremely short with them; but we can never rest in complete security, nor think either our privileges or our lives in safety, while France, after spreading devastation and death over her tributaries on the continent, looks with malignant envy on the happy spot, and longs to extend her fiend-like fangs to crush us also, and level us
66
67
68
The Hon. C. Hely Hutchinson.
—With most of the sentiments expressed by die right hon. gent, who has just sat down, I rise to declare my perfect concurrence; and I am happy to feel justified in assuring the house, that the conduct of the government of Ireland since the insurrection, meets with my entire approbation. Their firmness and humanity; their activity and attention, entitles them to the utmost praise. They have in a great measure pursued that line of policy, which the wise and just would always recommend to be observed towards Ireland. Their temper and lenity have tended to cultivate the good opinion of the people; which was precisely the course, which, at the close of the last session of parliament, I had entreated should be adopted; an exhortation by the bye, which seemed to have been much misconceived; and for offering which, I became the subject of severe and unmerited censures, from particular quarters: several paragraphs (I should be ashamed to suppose from authority) were inserted in some of the Dublin papers, and also in those of this city, tending to decry the individual who had attempted to call the attention of parliament to the affairs of Ireland. I was quite unconscious, on that occasion, of having given any provocation to the friends of the noble earl, at the head of the government of that country. Such was not my object; as it was, and is, matter of indifference to me, by whom the offices of state are filled, provided government be well administered: in the mode of that administration I am, so far as relates to Ireland, particularly, interested. Connected to her by all the sacred ties which can bind an individual to his country, strengthened by a respect for the talents, a regard for the virtues, and a warm sympathy in the wishes of its inhabitants: eager as I feel for their welfare, rejoicing in their prosperity, and participating in their afflictions, I cannot but sincerely lament the necessity which ministers feel themselves under, for again resorting to parliament, for the measures now proposed. But, that under the present circumstances of that unhappy country, it is advisable thus to strengthen the hands of the executive, I cannot entertain a doubt: and I feel the less reluctance in again entrusting the Irish government with these extraordinary powers, when I reflect upon the moderation and lenity with which they have hi-
69
70
71
provided it were united,
72
promised
73
General Loftus.
—I rise, Sir, to give my most perfect support to the measures intended to be brought forward by the right hon. Secretary. They are certainly strong measures, but they are the only ones that will give security to he loyal inhabitants of Ireland. I have listened with great satisfaction to the early part of the speech of the hon. gent, who has just sat down (Col. Hutchinson), because I know there is one part of Ireland in which the opinion of 'hat hon. gent, will have considerable weight. As to the question to which the hon. gent, afterwards alluded, I think that a time of war is not the proper period for the discussion of it, or of any question tending to interfere with the constitution. I felt it my duty to say thus much, and I shall sit down with giving my cordial support to the motion.
Mr. Hawthorn.
—I shall support the motion, Sir, because, from the observations which I had an opportunity of making during the summer, I am convinced that the measures proposed are necessary for the security of the country. It is of considerable consequence to give strength to his Majesty's government in Ireland, to enable them to meet and put down the efforts of treason and rebellion with vigour and effect. His Majesty, in his gracious speech from the throne, has acquainted the house that the principal actors in the late atrocious insurrection have been brought to justice, and that the deluded multitude are returning to a sense of their duty; it is, therefore, essential to give such powers to his government in that country as will enable them to maintain the tranquillity so happily restored. Besides, the manner in which the Irish government have used the extraordinary pow-
74
Lord Temple
said, that he was not unwilling to give his consent to the motion, trusting in the assertion of the right hon. gent (Mr. Yorke), that the necessity actually existed for the renewal of an act which in its preamble stated
"the spirit of rebellion and insurrection to be
actually raging in Ireland."
Act of Union.
Lord Archibald Hamilton
could not help feeling some surprise, that any doubt could exist as to the propriety of the time for improving the condition of so important a member of the empire. He meant, however, to make only a few observations on the subject of the motion. To ascertain the situation of that part of the empire it was scarcely necessary to advert to the situation of its capital, in which every inhabitant was obliged to place a list of all
75
Mr. Burrows
desired to be informed whether the notice of the right hon. Secretary, comprehended both the bills intended to be continued?
The Speaker
informed the hon. member, that the motion before the house related only to that for allowing the suspension of the habeas corpus act, for a time to be limited, and that when that should be disposed of, the motion on the other would be put.
Mr. Burrows
then rose to state his reason, for putting the question. He was willing to give his ready and perfect concurrence to the first proposition, but on the other question he was disposed to think that some time ought to be allowed before it should be carried into effect. This opinion he entertained not from any concurrence with the observations that had been made this night, or on a former night, tending to shew that the present government of Ire-
76
Lord Castlereagh
rose to offer a few observations in reply to the last speaker. He was happy to find that the hon. gent. had nothing to urge against the character of those who were to be invested with the discretionary power granted by the bill for continuing the use of martial law in Ireland, under such circumstances as might be judged expedient. The hon. gent, had, however, contended that such a bill had never been passed except where strong proofs of its necessity were produced For his own part he would venture to assert, and he would defy any gentleman to disprove his observation, that no measure had so materially contributed to prevent the mischief originating from the rebellion from extending itself, as the very measure which was now made the ground of objection. A great body of loyally had existed in Ireland, during the period that one of the most extensive and most malignant rebellions raged in that country which it was ever the fate of a government to encounter. By the exertions of this assemblage of loyal subjects, that rebellion had been suppressed, and the constitution had been saved from destruction. He must, however, be permitted to say, that it was not till the measure in question had been adopted, that the loyal part of the community were able to feel and to employ their strength. It was not till government was armed with the extraordinary powers with which the measure vested them, that rebellion was attacked in its strong holds and effectually subdued. These were the effects of the measure in putting an end to the rebellion in 1798,
77
78
79
[MARTIAL LAW IN IRELAND.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke
next moved, for leave to bring in a bill to continue, for a time to be limited, the bill of last session, for the Suppression of Rebellion in Ireland, by enabling government to establish martial law. On the motion being put from the chair,
Mr. Burrows
rose to express his reasons for opposing the motion. He begged it to be understood that he did not found his objections to it from any want of confidence in those who were to exercise the powers to be granted by the bill. On the contrary, he had the most entire confidence that these powers would in no instance be abused, either by the government of Ireland or the government of this country. His objection was founded on constitutional grounds. He was convinced that it must be a principle with every man who loved the constitution, never to give his assent to a bill conferring such extraordinary powers, without the most urgent and imperious necessity. Acting on this principle, he could not, on the ground of confidence in government, consent to violate the constitution, unless the necessity of such violation was clearly established. When this bill was formerly passed, a rebellion actually raged in Ireland, and ample documents to prove its necessity were laid on the table of the house. At present KO sort of evidence to prove its necessity was brought forward. Had any parliamentary evidence been adduced? Were any facts stated to shew that the re-enactment of the bill was essential to the maintenance of tranquillity in Ireland? Had the house obtained even the bare responsibility of a minister on the subject? Not one of these grounds of the necessity of the measure had been brought before the house. Independant of all information, Members were called on to give their assent to a measure which confessedly violated the free principles of the British constitution. When any description of subjects were to be deprived of a constitutional privilege, it was necessary to proceed with coolness and deliberation. Even while rebellion raged in Ireland he had not heard of resorting to martial law, and suspending all appeal to the civil tribunals, without a considerable portion of anxiety and alarm. But what he desired the house to consider, were the specific grounds on
80
Mr. Corry
rose to make a few observations
81
82
83
Mr. John Claudius Beresford
begged the indulgence of the house, while he made a few observations. His hon. friend under the gallery, (Mr. Burrows) had urged two objections to the re-enactment of the bill, at least, without more mature consideration. The first objection was, that no facts were produced to justify the necessity of the measure. The second objection was drawn from the thinness of the members particularly connected with Ireland, and best fitted to give information to the house on the subject. With regard to the first objection, it was unnecessary for him to take up the time or attention of the house. His right hon. friend had fully removed this objection, and he heartily agreed with his right hon. friend, that if the measure were not renewed, the same system of terror, which had been alluded to, would immediately be renewed in ail its horrors. With regard to the thinness of the attendance of members connected with Ireland, he should make one or two remarks. Having been very recently in Ireland, and having had occasion to ascertain what were the sentiments of at least three-fourths of the Irish members resident in that country, as to the expediency and necessity of the measure, he requested the house, on his veracity, to be assured, that they were to a man convinced, that the re-enactment of the bill was indispensably necessary to the preservation of tranquillity, and to the protection of all loyal subjects. They were so thoroughly convinced of its necessity, that they expected the re-enactment of the bill would be one of the earliest acts of the session. If they had not indulged such an expectation, they would, at this moment, have been in their places to solicit its re-enactment. This sentiment, of the necessity of the measure, he might add, was not confined to members, but was entertained by every loyal man in every part of the country. He, himself, had been the only Irish member, who had expressed doubts respecting the loyalty of the lower orders, in opposition to the opinion of a number of other most respectable individuals. He rejoiced to find, that the opinion he entertained of the disloyalty of the lower orders was erroneous, and that the spirit of disaffection was much less general than he had dreaded. At this moment all good men of every party were animated with feelings of loyalty, and convinced of the necessity of defending the country against the common enemy. Every man who possessed only 201
84
[IRISH BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]—
Mr. Carry,
pursuant to notice, moved for leave to bring in a bill to continue, for a time to be limited, the restriction on the issues of cash by the bank of Ireland. It was unnecessary for him to urge any reasons to induce the house to agree to his motion. The same motives that induced the house to entertain the bill with respect to the Bank of England, applied to the present case, and as the measure, he proposed, was always consequential to that which had been introduced within a few days by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, he should content himself barely with moving, that leave be given. Leave was given.—Mr. Corry then moved, that there be laid before the house, an account of the amount, of bank of Ireland notes, including bank post bills, payable at seven days sight, in circulation on the first days of January, April, June, and September, 1800; also, amount in circulation on the first days of April, May, and June, 1801; also, amount in circulation on the first days of June, August, October, and November, 1802, and first of February, 1803; also, amount in circulation on the first days of January, April, August, and September, 1803; distinguishing, in this last instance, the value of those below the value of five guineas. Ordered.
HOUSE OF COMMON'S.
Saturday, December 3, 1803.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Hobhouse
brought up the report of the committee upon expiring laws. The resolutions were read and agreed to, and bills were ordered to be brought in pursuant to them.—Mr. Secretary Yorke presented a copy of a proclamation issued by the lord lieutenant of Ireland, to prevent distillation from oats and oatmeal in that country. Ordered to be laid on the table.—Mr. Corry
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, December 5, 1803.
Their Lordship met at a little after three, when the appeal from the court of session of Scotland in which Christie and Keay were appellants, and Proud foot, Dean of Guild and the Guild Council of the Burgh of Perth, respondent, came before them. Messrs. Adams and Grant were heard on the part of the appellants, and Mr. Romilly for the respondent. The farther hearing of council was deferred until tomorrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, December 5, 1803.
[MINUTES.]
The bill for inclosing lands in the manor and parish of Fulbeck, in the county of Lincoln, for making compensation for the tithes arising within the same parish, was read a second time, and committed.—Mr. Manning brought in a bill to enable the London dock-company to raise a farther sum af £500,000 for the con struction of wet docks and other works, for the greater accommodation of the London merchants. Read a first time and ordered to be read a second time.—Mr. Grant ac quainted the House that Col. F. W. Grant, who had been ordered to attend in his place on Wednesday next, had arrived in town, and would attend in his place to-morrow.—Mr. Secretary Yorke presented at the bar, by his Majesty's command, a copy of the convention between his Britannick Majesty and the King of Sweden, signed on the 25ih of July 1803. I Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Secretary Yorke moved the second reading of the bill for continuing the suspension of the habeas corpus. act in Ireland. The bill was accordingly read a second time without giving rise to any debate, and ordered to be committed to-morrow. Mr. Pole presented the ordnance estimates for 1804, which were ordered to, lie on the table, and the hon. member save notice that he would, on Friday next, in the committee of supply, move the consideration of these estimates after the army estimates were disposed of.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved that a committee be appointed to enquire into the expenditure of the United Kingdom, from the first day of Jan. 1801 and the sums con tributed thereto by Great-Britain and Ire land respectively, and report the same with their opinion thereupon, to the House. And a committee was appointed accordingly
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[OATS DISTILLATION BILL.]—
Mr. Corry,
pursuant to his ma ice on Saturday, rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to indemnify the lord lieutenant, and such as had; acted under the authority of his proclamation, issued in October, prohibiting the distillation of spirits from oats, which had been laid before the house by his right hen. fiend the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It would be necessary for him to state the cause and
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Mr. Francis
did not mean to oppose the motion, though an enemy to every exercise of power contrary to law; he was inclined to approve of it in the present instance, where it had been evidently directed to secure the country from famine. The lord lieutenant, he thought, had acted right, and of the descriptions of power, the one proposed to be committed to him, by the present measure, was least likely to be abused. He should not be sorry if greater powers were given, or if the distillation of oats were altogether prohibited, for, he was confident, that much serious mischief was caused by the use of that pernicious liquor, whiskey, so made,
Mr. Carry
took the opportunity of the hon.
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[INDIA BONDS.]—
Lord Castlereagh
moved the order of the day, for the second reading of the bill for regulating the interest on India bonds; on the question being put,
Mr. Gregor
said, he did not mean to oppose the measure; on the contrary, he was obliged to the noble lord for bringing in any bill to amend or rectify the detects of the property-tax act. It had been stated from authority, that no alteration was to be made in that act during the present session; but, for his own part, he was of opinion, that it was a perfectly impracticable act. By that, he meant, that it could not be executed according to its letter; but, if executed at all, must be executed according to the arbitrary, or discretionary interpretation of the commissioners. He had received letters on the subject from two gentlemen of good sense and intelligence, who had been appointed commissioner; they were of opinion, tint the act. in its present form, could not be executed He did not mean to enter into the detail of all its clauses, and should only advert to one clause, which directed that she commissioners of the land-tax should be the commissioners fur executing this act. The hon. member contended, that in place of a board of collection, a board of controul was thus established. He threw out this observation merely to call the attention of gentlemen to the defects of this act.
Mr. Vansittart
observed, that only one of the hen. gentleman's observations applied to the question before the house. The hon. gent, had confessed himself much obliged to the noble lord, for bringing in a bill to explain any part of the property tax bill. His noble friend's measure, however, went only to amend the mode of collection in one instance, and not to alter any of the provisions of the act. With regard to the other observations of the hon. gent. he felt it would be to travel out of the question, to advert to them. It would be found, that the act, to which the hon. gent, had alluded, though perhaps containing some difficulty or obscurity, was, en the whole, more perspicuous than gentlemen were disposed to admit.
[IRISH MARTIAL LAW BILL]—
Mr. secretary Yorke
moved the order of the day,
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Mr. William Elliot
rose, and spoke as follows:—Sir; the observations, which I am about to offer, will be comprised within a very narrow compass. Indeed, I should not have intruded myself at all upon the patience of the house, if I could, compatibly with the view I entertain of my duty towards the country, to which this bill immediately relates, have permitted a measure of such moment to pass in a silence, that might have the appearance of a listless indifference. The affairs of Ireland must be universally admitted to merit the serious attention and earnest solicitude of every member of Parliament; but there are several among us, who are under more peculiar and indispensable obligations to watch over its concerns. I mean, Sir, those who gave their voles for the legislative union of the two countries. It does especially be hove such of us as were instrumental in the extinction of the local parliament of Ireland, to shew to die people of that country, so far at least as may depend I upon our individual exertions, that we have substituted in its place a legislature adequate, not only in means, but in zeal, diligence, and constancy, for the discharge of the trust confided to it. The local Parliament, Sir, had indisputably one eminent advantage. Being. from the very circumstance of its locality, more intimately mixed with the transactions of the country, it had a shorter and more easy access to information in respect to I its internal state than a more remote legislature can possess, This inconvenience attached to the united Parliament, the friends of the union believed, would be far over-balanced by the numerous and solid benefits likely to accrue from that measure; but no one can contend, that it is not an additional call on this Parliament, for its most active vigilance and assiduous application with regard to the interests of Ireland. The inquisitorial power of Parliament, Sir, is the very vital principle of ail its privileges and functions, and I trust this authority will ever be exercised fairly, faithfully, and impartially, throughout every part of the united kingdom. Before, we frame laws for Ireland, it is incumbent on us to have before us, an accurate state of the country for which we are about to legislate. Under these impressions, Sir, I come to the matter before us, which every one must feel to be of the most grave and critical importance. It is a demand upon us, for continuing to the executive government of Ireland, the power of depriving, at its discretion, a very large de-
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parliamentary
state paper
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know,
was confined within much narrower limits than the promoters of it are willing to inculcate.
numbers
their wealth or their character, it
contemptible in the extreme.
absurd and romantick,
idle,
visionary even in the opinion of many of those who embraced it.
the people, who had been worked into arms from one end of the country to the other in.
could not be roused beyond the assemblage of a
as contemptible in number as it was atrocious in disposition.
But five weeks have since elapsed, and not one single
and to rouse the loyal energies
rouse their loyal energies.
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by
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Mr. Secretary Yorke
considered the greater part of the speech of the right hon. gent, to be directed more against the general conduct of the Irish government, than against (he bill now before the House. The hon. member had thought proper to assert, that the affairs of Ireland did not occupy so great a share of the attention of government, or of the house, as their vast importance required. This was a very strong charge, but of the facts on which it was to be supported he professed himself to be totally ignorant. When the hon. member thought proper to give notice of a motion respecting the affairs of Ireland, and that motion came regularly before the house, he should be ready to meet any charges which were brought forward. Till this was done, he must content himself with giving the assertion a general denial. A charge of so important a kind would require strong evidence to support it, and he did not see the propriety of bringing it forward in a loose, unsupported manner. The hon. member had said, that it was particularly the duty of those who had voted for the union, to pay the utmost attention to the affairs of Ireland. For himself, he thought it equally the duty of all members to pay every possible degree of attention to this subject whenever it came to be fairly discussed, and he had no doubt that it would at all times receive the gravest and most mature consideration, such as its high importance was entitled to. A great deal had been said in the hon. gentleman's speech about additional information. He wished to know of what description the information was which was required. The information before the house was, that the rebellion in Ireland had been suppressed, that measures of precaution were, however, indispensably necessary, more especially when it was considered that the enemy had avowed his de-
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Colonel Craufurd
was adverse to the renewal of the bill without obtaining some information of its necessity, of which there was at present nothing before the house. The sum of this information, if it could be called such, was, that the rebellion was supersede, and that expectations of the continuance, of tranquillity were entertained. This, surely, was a very strange kind of information to offer to the house, as an inducement to pass a bill, which could not be characterised as any other than a measure of severity. The extraordinary negligence of the government of Ireland had been the subject of animadversion this evening, and with the sentiments expressed by his right hon. friend who began the discussion, he most heartily concurred. The hon. secretary of state had endeavoured to shew that such charges were unfounded, and lie had rested his argument chiefly on the strength of the garrison, and the facility with which the rebellion had been suppressed. But how did this representation accord with facts, at least with representations which had been given as such to the world. He had been informed, that in die evening on which the insurrection burst forth, the lord lieutenant had gone quietly to his country house as if no danger had been apprehended. The lord chief justice of the King's Bench, though necessarily in the confidence of government, was not at all aware of any insurrection, till the afternoon of the very day on which it exhibited itself in acts of public atrocity. But, this evening the right hon. the secretary of state had in his place declared, that government were aware of the projected insurrection that very day. How this declaration was consistent with the statement now made, he professed himself unable to discover. Credit was taken for the accurate information of ministers respecting the designs of the rebels, but it was admitted that the existence of their powder magazine was a profound secret. It certainly could not be pretended that the government, ignorant of this very important piece of information, could be able to form an estimate, at least a correct one, of the force sufficient for the preservation of the tranquillity of the capital. Bus, still, ministers were indignant at any charge of negligence or want of sufficiently accurate information. How far they were entitled to be so, he left it for the house to decide. He had been informed of another circumstance, which was certainly
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Mr. Francis
said, that he could not let a measure of such great importance pass without staling his opinion of it. If his Majesty's ministers have grounds sufficient to support so strong an act against a great portion of onr fellow-subjects in Ireland, and so alarming to every other part of the empire, they ought to state those grounds to Parliament. In fact, we are called upon to proceed, without evidence, in a manner which nothing but the clearest evidence can justify; that is, to put the kingdom of Ire-
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Lord Castlereagb
rose to reply to the two last speakers. He began by adverting to the charge of want of proper attention being paid by ministers, or the house, to the situation of Ireland. He really was not aware on what grounds it was that such a charge was adduced. If it was because subjects of a
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Colonel Craufurd,
in explanation, stated that his charge, as to the want of preparation on the part of the Irish government at the breaking out of the insurrection in Dublin, was, that the military were provided only with three rounds of ammunition, and that the yeomanry had none at all for the space of two hours.
Mr. Pole
did not Wish to trouble the house with any observations on the present question He only meant to set the hon. gent, who had just sat down, right as to the circumstance which he had last mentioned. The hon. gent, had attempted to deceive the house and the public. The fact was, that, previous to the 23d of July, all the troops in Ireland had been provided with 6o rounds of ammunition each. The Castle of Dublin was no depot for military stores, but there had been lodged there 8000 rounds, for serving such regiments as might have occasion to apply, and, on the first application, ample provision was made and within less than two hours, more ammunition was supplied than was required to be used during the whole course of the rebellion. He stated this from his own personal knowledge, and pledged himself to the truth of it. He had been employed by the master of the ordnance to make the inquiry, who had been alarmed by a report similar to that stated by the hon. gent.
Colonel Craufurd
called upon the hon. gent, to say, whether it was parliamentary language, or language which ought to be used by one gentleman to another in that house, to accuse him of an attempt to deceive the house or the public?
Mr. Pole
explained that he had stated, that the hon. Colonel had deceived the house—he himself being deceived.
Mr. Windham
said, it did not seem to him that the hon. gent. (Mr. Pole) had met the charge of his hon. friend (Colonel Craufurd), who did not say, that there was
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ex post facto
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conciliating
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unless
until
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might
The Chancellsr of the Exchequer.
—Sir; in the observations which I feel it my duty to other to the house, it is my intention to follow the example set me by my noble friend near me (lord Castlereagh) and to sever the consideration of the conduct of die Irish government, respecting the insurrection of the 23d of July, from the merits of the measure now before the house; and to make that conduct, whatever it may have been, the subject of a distinct charge. However, as it has been, in this instance, brought into view, I think it necessary most distinctly to declare my opinion, that the proceedings of the high characters, to whom the management of Irish affairs are entrusted, will be found to have been, in the instance alluded to, perfectly justifiable; that they acted with the most laudable judgment; that they had procured full information of the plan of the insurrection, and had provided means amply adequate to defeat its object. That the lord lieutenant, after having taken every necessary precaution, thought proper to retire to his seat in the Phœnix-park, I am ready to admit; but that such retirement betrayed any degree of inattention to the wants or security of the state and the city of Dublin, I do most decidedly contradict, because I am satisfied, that every measure was taken, that the most deliberate investigation, and the most active vigilance could suggest. The civil power was prepared, and the army, as was seen by the result of the insurrection, was in a complete state of readiness. The superintendant magistrate of Dublin, was, at an early period of the day on which the insurrection took place, apprised by the Irish government, that
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Mr. Wilberforce
expressed his opinion upon the grand distinction which should be made between the civil and military code: that there was no ground of doubt why the measure should not be carried into effect. In the organization, breaking out, and progress of post insurrection, he found a complete justification for voting in the affirmative. With respect to the argument set up by a right hon. gentleman, that some grounds should be stated to the House, it was only necessary for him to remark, that the bill was supported by the same constitutional system which enabled his Majesty to proclaim martial law, and to call for the aid of all his subjects in case of the enemy's landing. He did not coincide in the sentiments of the right hon. gentleman, who had argued, that a despotic government would be the best of all governments, if administered by angels. For his own part, he was convinced that the nature of despotism was so bad, and tended so much to corruption, that he preferred the British constitution, administered even as it was, to the despotic government of angels. He thought the House was called upon to bestow the most serious consideration upon the state of Ireland: for it was a melancholy reflection, that a country which had been connected fur several hundred years with this, enjoying the same benefits, and in possession of the same constitution;, should be afflicted
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Dr. Laurence,
after expressing his agreement with the concluding sentiments of the last speaker, vindicated his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) from the charge of inconsistency. With regard to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, it was a measure of a very different nature from the present. That was a measure of precaution, this of punishment, and of punishment in a manner which was looked upon by the constitution with peculiar jealousy. It was barely tolerated, never praised. An assertion had been made that similar bills had been passed by the United Parliament without enquiry. This assertion w as not borne out by the fact. He had himself on a former occasion voted for the measure, because, from the proclamation, he was led to believe that a necessity existed But, what document was there before the House to prove the existence of any such necessity at this moment? The evidence, such as it was, led to a contrary conclusion. It was now acknowledged that the murder of Lord Kilwarden was not the effect of a premeditated plan, but had taken place from his being the first person who was presented to the fury of the mob. But it was on the ground of the law being more directly struck at in the person of one of its chief administrators, that he had voted for the Martial Law Bill. On the other side, a hope had been expressed by his Majesty, that his deluded subjects were returning to a state of obedience. By one gentleman the notoriety of the necessity had been urged by another it had been stated, that an invisible necessity existed. (Lord Castlereagh here said, that he had not called it an invisible necessity, he had said, that there was a necessity though not visible.) The hon. member then proceeded, to say, that he would leave the noble lord to explain to the House the distinction, and, in compliment to him, would use the term non-visible, instead of invisible. The necessity was not visible, and the notoriety which had been mentioned was, he supposed, not audible. The law, it was acknowledged, had never been acted upon, but in one solitary instance, and in that one instance he would assert, that it had been
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General Loftus
considered the bill before the House merely as a measure of precaution, and by no means one upon which the
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The Attorney General
observed, that the whole of she hon. and learned gentleman's arguments were directed against the bill, as if it were intended to be carried into adoption permanently and universally throughout Ireland: whereas it was merely intended to be temporary, and only to be acted on in such places as those wherein the ordinary process of the law should be impeded; so far, however, from its being a measure subversive of the common law, or tending to supersede generally the ordinary course of justice, it was in fact solely intended as a measure auxiliary to the common Jaw, and tending to protect its administration by proceeding in the summary process of martial Jaw in districts where rebellion or insurrection should render the process of the ordinary law impracticable. He could not avoid Considering the arguments this night offered against the adoption of this bill, as very extraordinary, considering the. persons at which, and the persons from whom, they came, and more especially front the right hon. gentleman opposite to him, (Mr. Windham,) who was a member of his Majesty's government, when a measure exactly similar to the present was first introduced, and was himself can of its most strenuous advocates and defenders. The right hon. gentleman, this night, was loud and vehement in his reprobation of this bill, and in his declaration, that it most undoubtedly was a measure which violated the constitution, and ought not to pass in the present posture of affairs. He remembered, however, when a similar measure was proposed during the administration of the right hon. gentleman; and when it was resisted by the opposition of that day, as one calculated to exasperate the people of Ireland, and to dispose them still atom to re-
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Mr. Windham
wished the honourable and learned gentleman to consider, that if he meant to expose the opinions of any one, he must take care to state them correctly: for that otherwise the triumph which he would obtain, would be a triumph only over himself. He (Mr. W) had never said, that the measure in question, though proper in itself, ought to be rejected, because it would be complained of by those, on whom it was likely to operate. He had never said, as a foundation for such an opinion, that the measure in question was proper. On the other hand, he was as little inclined to say, that it was improper. What he complained of was, that proper or otherwise, the house was adopting it without proof.
The Hon. C. Hely Hutchinson.
—Sir, while I highly admire the display of talent which has characterized this debate, I cannot but be of opinion, that many of the observations which have been made, might have been well spared. I confess, Sir, that I felt during a great part of the discussion, as a parent who had been just deprived of a beloved child, with the physician seated by me, detailing the circumstance, and reminding me of the agonies under which my child had perished: whilst I eagerly watched the opportunity to exclaim, "spare me, Sir, this torturing and now unavailing narrative; my child is gone—Hat loss is irretrievable: but, in the same of God, try and avert the ravages of a cruel disease from the rest of my family;" and in the same manner should I be inclined to address the gentlemen of this House, "no more of the
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entire
[BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]—
Mr. Sargent
brought up the Report of the Bank of England Restriction Bill. On reading the amendment, which makes the duration of the Bill six months after the conclusion of peace,
Sir William Elford
called the attention of the House to an important alteration in this bill from that of the last year, which took place in a very thin committee on Saturday last. It was in filling up the blank for the duration of the bill, by the insertion of the words "six months" after the ratification of the Treaty of Peace, instead of "six weeks," which was the time expressed in the last bill. He did not mean to oppose the alteration, but felt it his duty to call the attention of the House, as it had been made in so very thin a committee.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
admitted, that the alteration alluded to by the hon. I member, was certainly important; but he trusted the House would agree with him that it was also necessary. It had been thought inconvenient to make the bill continue only for six weeks alter peace, because, if that should happen in the recess, and it should be found inconvenient to allow the Bank to I pay off in each so soon afterwards, Parliament must assemble for that very purpose; whereas, if Parliament should be sitting, and six months should appear too long, the time might be shortened for there was power to vary or repeal the bill at any time, contained in the bill itself.—After a few Words from Mr. Vansittart and Mr. Swann, the amendment was agreed to. The bill was ordered to be ingrossed, and read a third time to-morrow, if then engrossed.
HOUSE OF LORDS,
Tuesday, December 6, 1803.
Counsel were heard in continuation, and finally, respecting the Scotech Appeal, Christie v.
132
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, December 6, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. Graham,
Inspector of Convicts on the river Thames, presented an account of the state of the hulks from Christmas to Michaelmas. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Robinson, from the London Dock Company, presented an account of receipts and disbursements, from the 1st of June 1802 to the 31st of May 1803. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Johnson from the office of the Chief Secretary in Ireland, presented an account of the distribution of the sum of 500,000
l.
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[IRISH BANK, RESTRICTION BILL.]—
Mr. Corry
moved the order of the day for the second reading of the Irish Bank Restriction Bill and on the motion that the bill be now read a second time,
Lord Archibald Hamilton
rose. Pie said, he did not see any reason why the restriction of payments in specie should be continued, either on the Bank of England or Ireland, to the protracted period of six months after the ratification of the preliminaries of peace It must be obvious, his lordship thought, to every person, that the paper currency of Ireland was already carried to an alarming extent. It was his intention, he said, to move in the committee, that there should be a restriction of paper circulation in Ireland, and that the Directors of that Bank should be made responsible for the issues they should make.
Mr. Corry,
in reply to the noble lord, admitted that it was, no doubt, a subject of regret, that the paper currency of Ireland was carried to such an extent. He was ready to admit this; but, at the same time, he thought the noble lord had better delay any motion
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[ORDER TOR COL. GRANT'S ATTENDANCE.]—
Colonel F. W. Grant,
who, on account of his absence on the Waterford Committee, had been ordered to attend in his place to-morrow, rose, and expressed his regret that he had given any trouble to the House. He stated, that it had been his intention, notwithstanding his military avocations, to attend, if absolutely necessary, on his duties connected with that House. From corresponding, however, with a friend in London, he was led to understand, that election committees were necessarily dissolved at the termination of the session, and that consequently his attendance on the Water-ford Committee was no longer necessary. The failure of duty of which he had been guilty had arisen from this misapprehension, and not from any intention to transgress the regulations of the House. The moment, ho said, he had received the order of that House for his attendance, he had set out from Dundee, where his regiment was now stationed, and where it would be necessary for him to return immediately. His military duties were of an imperious nature. He relied, therefore, on the indulgence of the House, and hoped they would attribute his absence, not to any want of respect for the House, or to any tendency to neglect his duty, but to the misapprehensions he had already stated, and the imperious commands of military duty.
The Speaker
stated, that it was usual, in
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Mr. Plumer
rose and moved, "that, in consequence of the hon. gentleman's apology, the order for his attendance to-morrow be discharged."—The motion was agreed to, and (he order was discharged accordingly.—Colonel Grant returned his sin cere thanks to the House for their indulgence.
[EAST INDIA BONDS.]—
Lord Castlereagh
moved the order of the day, for the House to resolve itself into a committee on the bill for regulating the rate of interest on the bonds issued by the East India Company. On the I motion, that the Speaker do now leave the chair,
Mr. Dent
rose, not to oppose the committal of the bill, but to call the attention of the House to the principal feature of it, which he considered rather extraordinary, as giving an indulgence to the East India Company, which he thought extremely partial, and one from which every individual and corporate body in this kingdom, was precluded. A few nights since, the hon. Secretary of the Treasury, in answer to a question put to him by an hon. member on his side of the House, respecting the tax on property and income, amongst other things had declared it to be the intention of government, to go through with the assessment of the tax, during the present year, in the manner prescribed by the existing bill. Now the present bill introduced by the noble lord, was calculated to affect, by a side wind, an exemption of the bonds of the India Company from the law to which every other species of public stock was liable; and, consequently, to give those bon is a considerable advantage at market, over Exchequer Bills and every other species of stuck; for the whole of the interest payable on Exchequer Bills, amounted to 51. 6s. 3d. per cent, per aim. payable yearly, and he could see no reason why an exemption should be extended to India Bonds, which would give them a preference at market over Exchequer Bills, seeing that they engaged a preference by the interest thereon being paid half-yearly. At least, if such an exemption as this was given to the public funds of the India Company, with a privilege of borrow mg at such an extraordinary advance of interest, he could see no right in precluding other corporations from a similar advantage.
136
Lord Castlereagh
rose, and, in answer to that part of Mr. Dent's speech which referred to the Income Tax, said, that the declaration of his hon. friend neither had, nor ought to have, any reference to the affairs of the East-India Company; and he trusted that the House would not consider, at the present crisis, that any regulations which his Majesty's ministers might deem necessary in assessing the income Tax upon the property of individuals, ought to stand in the way of an important and necessary regulation, most materially interesting to the funds of a great commercial company, with the success of whose concerns die public revenues of this country were so deeply interested. He begged to call the attention of the House to the annual amount of the revenue paid to this country by the East-India Company, amounting, on an average, to £3,226,000 annually; and he trusted the House would feel too sensibly the importance of that concern which the country must have in the welfare of a company yielding such important aid to the state, to refuse, on light or trivial grounds, its assent to such regulations in die management of their funds and capital, as should be absolutely necessary to carry on their commercial concerns, under the present circumstances of the empire, without material disadvantage: for it was the province of the East-India Company, even under all the vicissitudes and disadvantages of war, to promote the commercial prosperity of the country in the most distant quarters of the globe; and this was not to be done unless they were enabled to keep a certain quantity of their funds afloat, and prevent them from returning back to their treasury, whereby their capital would be most materially diminished, and their means of trade consequently cramped. This could only be effected by enabling (hem so to regulate their rates of interest, as to maintain that respectability to their bonds, at market, which would prevent a decided preference of other-funds, to the depreciation of theirs. The hon. member had said, that the bonds of the company stood in no need of such aid, for that they at present enjoyed an advantage at market over Exchequer Bills, on account of their interest being payable half yearly. The fact, however, was otherwise; for Exchequer Bills were now at a premium of one shilling above par, whereas India Bonds were at a discount of two shillings. The noble lord then went generally into some financial statements of the company, in support of the bill: and contended that the increase of interest on their bonds was
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Mr. Johnson
said, the statement of the noble lord this night was in perfect consistency with the conduct adopted uniformly by him respecting the affairs of the company. In the last session, he amused the House with a pompous statement of the flourishing situation of their finances, and the brilliant prospects of their prosperity: but what is the first illustration the noble lord gives in this session? Why, a new plea of embarrassment, and a new appeal to the indulgence of the House, for the privilege of borrowing money, to answer their exigencies, at a much higher interest than any other corporate body, or individual in this country, dares venture to offer. Such was the conduct he should ever expect from the noble lord, so long as he presided over the conduct of India affairs; ever complaining of existing embarrassments, and ever holding out specious promises of future prosperity.
Mr. Vansittart
said, that the present bill purported no more than a temporary relief to the India Company, from a species of embarrassment which in time of war must more or less affect all borrowers, public or private. The government of the country, at such times, always filled up its loans upon worse terms than were to be had in times of peace; and no company or individual could expect to be exempt from similar disadvantages: there was nothing, therefore, unreasonable, or unfair, in this mode of enabling the India Company to meet the terms upon which only their demands could be supplied.
Mr. Charles Grant
said, the object of the bill was not to place the company in a better situation, but to prevent it from being placed in a worse situation. India bonds were coming in every day to be paid, and if the Property Tax was to be deducted at the India-House in fractional parts, according to the number of weeks and days upon which it might be necessary to calculate, it would create endless confusion and embarrassment, and must tend to depreciate the bonds.
Mr. William Dundas
also supported the bill; and denied there was any truth in the arguments of the hon. gent, opposite him (Mr. Johnson), that there was any proof in this bill of any embarrassment in the circumstances of the East-India Company, or
138
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, December 7, 1803.
Lord Hawkesbury presented the papers relative to the Convention entered into between Great-Britain and Sweden, on the 25th July, which were laid upon tire table.—The Seamen's Desertion Bill was read a second time, and committed for to-morrow.—The Bank Restriction Bill was brought up from the Commons, read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, December 7, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
Sir John Newport,
returned by the Committee member for Water-ford instead of Mr. Alcock, took the oaths and his seat.—A private petition was brought up respecting the widening of the Canterbury Road. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. C. L. Dundas brought up the report of the Waterford Committee, which stated, that the Committee had found the election of Mr. Alcock illegal and defective, and that consequently they had declared Sir John Newport the legal member.—Mr. C. L. Dundas also in pursuance of this report moved, that the Deputy Clerk of the Crown be ordered to attend to-morrow morning, in order to erase the name of Mr. Alcock, and alter the election. Ordered.—Mr. Sargent brought up the report of the Qualification Indemnity Bill. Ordered to be read a third lime to-morrow.—Mr. Corry moved the order of the day for a Committee of the whole House on the Irish Sugar Drawback Bill. The alterations adopted by the Committee were purely verbal.—The House being resumed the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—Mr. Corry moved the order of the day for the Irish Distillery Bill. It was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.—Mr. Corry moved the order of the day for a Committee of the whole House on the Irish Promissory Note Bill. The House having resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—Mr. Corry moved the order of the day for a Committee of the whole House on the Irish Provision Bill. The blouse hav
139
[IRISH MARTIAL LAW BILI.]—
Mr. Hawthorn
then brought up the report of the committee on the bill for continuing Martial Law in Ireland. The report being read,
Mr. Wilberforce
said, it was not his intention to trouble the house with any long or minute discussion. With regard to the necessity of the measure now before the house, he believed there could be only one opinion. He rose, not to oppose the measure nor to deny its necessity, for he was of opinion that such a measure was really necessary in the present circumstances of Ireland, and that it had been suggested by the imperious dictates of necessity alone. The only difference that existed between him and the framers of the bill, was in regard to the mode of carrying it into execution.—He did not wish to trouble the house, but he wished to propose some amendment in regard to the constitution of those courts martial to which the bill alluded. He thought, unless in a case of the most impe-
140
141
The Speaker
stated, that the object of the hon. gent. could only be obtained by moving a separate and distinct clause to be introduced into the bill.
Mr. Wilberforce
accordingly made out the clause at the table, and read it to the house. On the question being put that the clause be brought up,
Colonel Wood
said, he had no objection to the amendment proposed by the hon. gent. but rather than give any discretionary
142
Mr. Secretary Yorke
observed, that he could not agree entirely with the hon. gentleman who had proposed the amendment, though he was ready to give him fall credit for the sincerity of his intentions. His great objection was, and he thought it must occur to every person, that this amendment was inconsistent with the original spirit of the measure proposed by the bill. The bill was of such a nature as could only be warranted by necessity. If there was no necessity for the measure, it would be better to discharge the bill entirely; but if the measure was thought necessary, which the hon. gent, fully admitted, such an amendment as he proposed would entirely defeat, its object. Were it possible for regular courts to sit, or for legal juries to be assembled, there would be no occasion for such a measure; but neither regular courts nor legal juries could meet with safety to themselves in the present circumstances of the country, and it was for this reason only that die measure was brought forward. Was it possible, the right hon. gent, asked, that any court in the very heart of rebellion could previously go through any tedious process to ascertain the particular qualifications of its members, or would it be proper that every officer, in order to ascertain his age, should carry a certificate in his pocket? The principle on which the hon. gent, proceeded would go entirely to prevent, in many instances, the assembling of any court together, and at times too when it might be most necessary. The right hon. Secretary concluded by stating that, if the bill is at all necessary, it ought to pass as it is, and if not necessary it ought to be entirely dismissed; but the amendment, it was obvious, would go to defeat its object.
Mr. Windham
thought that no restrictions of the kind the amendment went to establish ought to be introduced in courts martial. If he were to state his objection to courts of this description, he would say that they were not so competent as others. But this objection referred entirely to that degree of judgment which men of such habits and pursuits were likely to exercise. The great
143
Mr. Wilberforce,
in explanation, said, he did not mean to cast any reflection on the integrity of young officers; but he drought they wanted steadiness, and the right hon. gentleman confirmed the opinion, when he spoke of the warmth of their feelings, That
144
Dr. Laurence
disapproved of the clause; the remedy was not such as should be applied. When the general measure was before the house, his object had been to render courts martial as like as possible to those under the mutiny act. The president, under that act, should be a field officer, and age and experience were secured by the rank. He did not see why the same regulation should not hold in the present instance, nor why the courts should not consist of the same number of officers as in all other parts of his Majesty's dominions, except two places, where circumstances did not permit it. The number of troops in Ireland afforded every facility, and it was the more necessary to have this tribunal liberally constituted, as it took the individuals out of the cognizance of the other courts. The objection of the hon. gentleman, on the score of passions, amounted to nothing more than the general evil of human infirmity; and if it was to be regarded, we could not have a judge or juror against whom objections could not be made. His objection was to die; preamble, which took so wide a range, that robbing a hen-roost might be construed into an act of rebellion. The hon. gentleman had observed on a former night, that angels could not be trusted with arbitrary power: his present opinion went to say, that after twenty-one, it lost its corruptive nature.
Lord Archibald Hamilton
said, there appeared to him to be two reasons held out for voting the present measure one was, the late insurrection in Dublin. If the hope expressed in his Majesty's speech, and the address in answer to it, was to be. relied on, it was a measure of precaution. Precaution against what? Was it against rebellion, against insurrection, against dissatisfaction in the people against the government? No. If he were to exercise his own understandng, he would say it was not a precaution against fear, or against danger, but against the confidence and hope expressed by his majesty's ministers. Bearing in mind the sad and calamitous consequences which attended this measure when it first passed, he could not approve of the continuance of it and he wished to give it this decided mark of his disapprobation. The question being put, the clause was negatived. On the question, that the bill be read a third time to-morrow,
Admiral Berkeley
rose, not to oppose the bill, though his Majesty's ministers gave no satisfactory reason why it should pass, but to give notice that he should on an early
145
The Chancellor if the Exchequer
called on the hon. admiral to state.
Admiral Berkeley
said, he alluded to what the chancellor of the exchequer said, "that the commander in chief had early intelligence of the intended insurrection on the 23d July."
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
denied having used these words. A gentleman, who spoke in the early part of the debate on the night he alluded to (Mr. W. Elliot) having said, that no instructions had been given to the commander in chief, no communication made to the lord mayor; he had said, that instructions had been given to the lord mayor through the superintending magistrate, a police officer well known to the hon. gentleman. He took the earliest opportunity of declaring, that he had not the most distant idea of casting any imputation on the officer alluded to, nor had he heard, except irons the hen. gentleman, that there was the smallest idea that any imputation was supposed to exist. He was sure, that whenever the conduct of the late commander in chief in Ireland, came to be considered, it would be found as free from blame, and as creditable to that deserving officer, as any other part of the conduct of the Irish government was, to the general credit which the conduct of that government had obtained.
Admiral Berkeley.
—The right hon. gentleman has mistaken me. I did not mean to say, that I conceived any imputation against that meritorious officer from the words that he spoke: yet, I do think, they conveyed an aspersion. Ths hon. officer himself thinks so; nor is he the only person who does think so. The right hon. gentleman said, that early intelligence was sent to the commander in chief.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—What I said was, that information had been sent, at an early hour, to the superintending magistrate.
Mr. J C. Beresford
observed, that to any gentleman acquainted with Dublin, it could not appear at all surprising, that the insurrection of the 23d of July should happen (even if such had been the case) without the knowledge of government or the commander in chief It took place in the most obscure part of the city, proceeded only through three
146
Mr. T. Grenville
not having before taken any part in the discussion of the measure before the House, did not mean to oppose it in the stage to which it had arrived; nor should he have, on this occasion, troubled the House with any observations, if some expressions, which had fallen from the right hon. secretary, had not compelled him to it, in order to exclude himself from that general conviction of the necessity of the measure which had been said to exist. He should not take up the time of the House, by entering into an inquiry whether the measure were necessary or not? but he would contend, that from the information which his Majesty's ministers had thought proper to give, no inference could be drawn of the existence of that necessity. When his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), on the first introduction of the measure, had applied for a short delay, in, order that information might be laid before the House, his application had been rejected on the ground that the smallest delay would be dangerous in the then existing circumstances. Though he was not in the House himself on that occasion, he was at the time fully sensible of the justice of the application, but whatever argument might have applied in that instance against delay, there could be none to apply in the present. The two bills now in their stages through the House, would not expire till six weeks after the commencement of the present session. The session had commenced on the 22d of November, and the bills would of course not expire till the 1st or 2d of January. He therefore put it to the House, what possible argument could be used against a short delay, until such information should be communicated to the House, either by the report of an open or secret committee, us should justify the adoption of such strong measures. It had been more than once his lot to complain of the conduct of his Majesty's ministers, in bringing forward measures of great importance, without laying sufficient information before the House; and he took this opportunity of protesting against die manner in which the two bills before the House had been introduced. There was another circumstance too that should weigh with parliament, and
147
Mr. Secretary Yorke
not intend to follow the hon. member through the details of his speech, because nothing that had fallen from him appeared to him to require an answer He was anxious, however, to say a few words, which he had not before an opportunity of doing, on the observations of the
148
Mr. Windham
thought, that as a charge might arise out of the statement that had been made, either against the Irish government, or the Commander in Chief, that the hon. Admiral might, notwithstanding the explanation that had been given, bring forward his motion, though not for crimination for the justification of his hon. rela-
149
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, December 8, 1803.
Their lordships met pursuant to adjourn ment.—The English Bank Restriction Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, December 8, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
The Malt Duty Bill, the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Bui, the Irish Martial Law Bill, the East India Bonds Bill, and the Qualification Indemnity Bill, were severally read a third lime, and passed.—The Pension Duty Bill, the Five Million Loan Bill, the Expiring Laws Bill, l the Irish Corn Exportation Bill, the Irish; and the British Sugar Drawback Bill, the Irish Silver Note Bill, the Curates' Relief Bill, and the Irish Oats Distillation Bill, were reported, and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.—Lord Castlereagh stated at the bar, that his Majesty had been waited upon with the address of that House upon the subject of his most gracious communication respecting General Barton being taken into custody; and that his Majesty had been pleased to receive the ad dress in the most gracious manner.—His lordship informed the House also of the gracious reception of the address respecting the sums of money which that House had voted and had yet to make good.—The Portugal Wine Bonding Bill had several new clauses added, the most prominent of which was one extending the benefit of the act to the importers and proprietors of Spanish Wine. The report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—The Irish Inland Navigation Accounts were ordered to be printed.
[NAVAL INQUIRY.]—
Sir W, Elford
adverted It a motion which had been made by him during the last session of Parliament, respecting the dismissal of a gentleman from his employment in his Majesty's dock yards. He wished now to know, and he was happy to rind that an hon. baronet was now in his place in that House, who might possibly have it in his power so inform him, whether it was the intention of the commissioners appointed under the authority of that house, to make any report upon the subject?
Sir C. Pole
said, that in his opinion there
150
Sir W. Elford
then desired to be informed if it was not intended to mention the name of that gentleman, or make any observation whatever upon the subject to which he alluded?
Sir C. Pole
then told the hon. baronet that most probably that gentleman's name might be mentioned, but he did not think it a circumstance by any means likely to occur, that any comment should be made upon the subject.
[CURATES' RELIEF BILL.]—
On the Order being read for receiving the report of the Stipendiary Curates Residence Bill,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that, in consequence of the absence of his right hon. friend who had been the mover of that bill, he thought it would be most proper to postpone the consideration of that report for the present; and as he had no doubt that the house would immediately concur in that opinion, he should move that the report be taken into further consideration to-morrow. There would most probably be a good deal of business then before the house, but it could easily be farther posponed till a more important discussion should happen to arise. The consideration of the report was then deferred till to-morrow.
[SIERRA LEONA COMPANY.]—
Mr. H. Thornton
presented a petition front the Siena Leona Company, praying for pecuniary assistance from Parliament.
The Speaker
observed, that he thought it his duty to inquire, before such a petition was entertained as the present, whether it had received the approbation of his Majesty, as it would, if the prayer should be finally agreed to, be voting away the public money to the use of individuals, which requited that fact to be first ascertained.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
stated, that he thought there could be very little difference of opinion as to (he probability, or even the certainty, of his Majesty's giving t a most gracious reception, as a petition for a grant of 10,000. had at a former period received that sanction.
Mr. H. Thornton
then moved, that the petition be referred to a committee, to examine the matter therein contained.
Mr. Dent
stated, that the report of the state of the company's funds had been to very favourable, that in his opinion, that was in itself, the very best reason that that possibly could be against granting the prayer of a petition for parliamentary aid.—The question was then put, and the petition referred to a committee.
151
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, December 9, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
Counsel were heard at considerable length for the Appellant, on the Appeal Cause from the Court of Chancery, J.I. Keighly
v.
[VOLUNTEERS.]—
Earl Durnley,
previous to the Order of die Day being read, wished to obtain some information on a subject confessedly of the highest importance: seeing the noble secretary of state in his place, he would take that opportunity. The subject, in his contemplation, was such as not only that house, but many thousands of his Majesty's subjects must regard with the utmost concern. He alluded to the volunteers, respecting whom, he begged leave to ask, if it was the intention of his Majesty's ministers to propose any general regulations previous to the ensuing recess.
Lord Hawkesbury
shortly replied, that he knew of no intention at present on the part of his Majesty's government, to propose any specific measure, previous to the recess, of the nature to which the noble earl alluded.
Earl Darnley
resumed the topic: he by no means wished, he said, to pin the noble Secretary of Stale down to any particular time, for proposing such a measure as he had alluded to; he was fully aware, not only of the importance, but of the delicacy of the subject. He repeated the anxious view in which it was very generally regarded. It was not his intention, however then to go into any detail upon the subject but there were one or two prominent points, which struck him so forcibly, that he could not refrain from adverting to them and endeavouring to press them on the attention of the noble Secretary, as requiring the most serious consideration of his Majesty's ministers, and calling for adequate regulation. He first adverted to the con-
152
Lord Hawkesbury,
in the course of his reply, observed, that he should avoid at present entering into any detailed view whatever of the subject. He agreed with the noble earl as to the great importance of the subject; it was one therefore which naturally attracted the serious attention of his Majesty's government: their lordships, however, would be at the same time aware of the complexity and intricate nature of the general subject, the variety of details which it embraced, and the correspondent difficulty of forming adequate regulations. He agreed also with the noble Earl, that certain difficulties had arisen in the progress of that system of measures, but of that nature as that they could not fairly be expected to be in the contemplation at the time, of those by whom, under the circumstances of the case, the bill was originally framed. He repeated, that the subject certainly occupied the serious attention of his Majesty's ministers; but while he made this avowal, he wished to be understood, as by no means committing himself with respect to the introduction of any specific measure upon the subject.
[BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]—
The order of the day being read, their lordships resolved into a Committee on the Bank Restriction Bill, Lord Walsingham in the chair. The different clauses and provisions of the bill were regularly gone through, and approved by the Committee.—On the consideration of the Preamble of the Bill,
153
Lord King
said, that if he had been present at the second reading of the bill, he should have thought it his duty to have urged, at some length, those arguments of justice and policy which struck his mind forcibly, as militating against the principle of the bill. The present not being the regular time for discussing the general principle, he should say very little on that part of the subject. He could not, however, avoid expressing his surprize, that a measure of this importance should be so much treated as a matter of course; that the bill should be read twice within two days after it had been sent from the other House, and that it should have been read for the second time without any previous notice, and without even the usual formality of a few introductory remarks from one of his Majesty's ministers. No inquiry was instituted; no reason was assigned for the passing of the bill, nor was any information laid before the House to prove the expediency of persevering in a system, which violated all general principles] and could only be justified by the most urgent necessity. Some very strong reasons ought surely to be assigned for continuing, to a distant and indefinite period, a measure which had not been found necessary in former wars, nor at any period prior to the year 1797, when the restriction was first adopted. It was at that time acknowledged to be a measure of the most questionable nature, and open to the most dangerous abuses. It was now asserted by ministers, and the partisans of the Bank, that die privilege had not been abused, and that no public inconvenience had been experienced. His lordship thought, that it was a great deal too much to take all this for granted, and that it ought, prior to a continuance of the measure, to be made the subject of inquiry. He was convinced, for his own part, that the contrary was the fact; and, though die abuse had not been flagrant or excessive, that the Bank had yielded, in a certain degree, to the temptation, and extended the quantity of their notes beyond the proper limits. By the present measure, the
interest
duty;
154
uniformly
Lord Hawkesbury
deemed it unnecessary to follow the noble lord, through the greatest part of what he had advanced, as being partly applicable to the principle of the bill, which was not then under discussion, and as partly foreign from the subject regularly under consideration: there existed, however, a great and an obvious necessity for the present measure: the bill proceeded on similar grounds with that of 1798 and at least an equal necessity existed for the Restriction now as then. The period of he present bill was somewhat different from that of the above year, and was in its nature more definite. He differed from the
155
Lord King
observed, in reply, that if he had not been fully understood by the noble lord, he had no difficulty in distinctly stating, that he imputed blame to the Bank, and it was on this account that he had moved the amendment. He thought that the principle of publicity would be better secured, and the Bank Directors more effectually admonish ed of the importance of their trust, by a positive parliamentary enactment, than by leaving it to the discretion of any individual peer, who might choose to move for an account of their notes. He wished it to appear upon the face of the bill, that the danger of abuse was foreseen by the legislature, and guarded against by the only expedient of which the case would admit. With respect to the observation, that such a clause was unusual, and that it had not found a place in former bills, he would only say, that it was a principle which militated against all legislative improvements whatever. It was one of those general remarks which applied equally to every new proposition, and was, therefore, undeserving of attention upon any.
156
Lord Hawkesbury
contended, that such a consideration was a reason against the adoption of the clause, inasmuch as the omission of the provision in the former bills, was productive of no injurious tendency whatever, nor of any ground of complaint. With respect to the unfavourable state of the course of Exchange at the periods alluded to, it was by no means to be attributed to the issue of paper from the Bank, but in a greater degree to the immense sums which were necessarily sent out of the country at the time for the payment of subsidies, and in consequence of the alarming scarcity which then prevailed.—The clause was ne-gaiived.—On the question being put respecting the third reading of the bill,
Lord Grenville
expressed his opinion, without meaning in the least to resist the progress of the bill, that the passing of such a measure as the present should not be regarded as a matter of course in that House. He should have to offer a few observations, which he thought it incumbent on him to advance, on the occasion of the third reading, respecting the measure, and more especially on points of considerable importance connected with the subject of the bill. He should therefore propose that the bill be read a third time on Monday.—Adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, December 9, 1803.
[MINUTES]—
The Speaker acquainted the House, that in obedience to the order of the House made on the 10th of August last, he had transmitted the Vote of Thanks of the House to the different Lords Lieutenant of Counties in Gt. Britain, and to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to be by them communicated to the Officers and Privates of the different Corps in the respective parts of the United Empire; and that he had received, through the Lords Lieutenant of Counties, and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, answers expressive of the thanks of the different Corps for the notice which Parliament had been pleased to take of their zeal and exertion.—Mr. Forster, from the Exchequer, presented at the bar an account of the sums of money issued by his Majesty pursuant to addresses of the House, which had not been made good by Parliament. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the Portugal Wine Bonding Bill, which was received, and read a third time and passed.—The Malt Tax Bill, the £5,000,000 Exchequer Bills Bill, the Ex-
157
ARMY ESTIMATES.—
The Secretary at War
(Mr. Bragge) moved the order of the day that the House do resolve itself into a Committee of Supply, and that the Estimates presented by him on a former day be referred thereto.—The House having accordingly resolved itself into a Committee, Mr. Hobhouse in the chair:
The Secretary at War
rose, and observed, that notwithstanding the magnitude and importance of the subject to which the estimates now under consideration referred, he should not feel it necessary for him to take up much of the time of the Committee in adverting to the different items, or explaining the nature and grounds of the different estimates to which it was his duty to direct their attention. It would be altogether needless to dwell upon the particulars, because the estimates voted last session, comprehended nearly the whole of those now produced, and gentlemen having been familiar with the nature and extent of the former, it was the less incumbent on him to occupy much of their time in his statement and explanation of the latter. He was bound, however, to acquaint the Committee, that the estimates now before them did riot comprehend the whole military establishment of the year, because, from the nature and extent of the different services included in it, and the possible variation which might arise from a possible alteration of the circumstances and state of the country, the whole could not with accuracy be ascertained, so as to be produced to Parliament in the shape of an unquestionable document. He could assure them, nevertheless that
158
Numbers.
£.
s.
d.
1. Guards, Garrisons, &c.
129,039
For Great Britain
3,115,456
9
9
For Ireland
1,161,168
2
11
Total
4,276,624
12
8
2. Forces in the Plantations, &c.
38,630
1,174,509
16
6
3. India Forces for Great Britain
22,897
545,628
4
2
4. Troops and Companies for recruting do. for Great Britain
533
29,859
14
9
5. Recruiting & Contingencies for Gt. Britain.
180,000
0
0
6. General and Staff Officers, with a state of the particulars of charges
154,647
3
10
7. Embodied Militia and Fencible Infantry for Great Britain.
109,947
2,150,965
10
6
For Ireland
640,657
17
0
Total
2,791,623
7
6
8. Clothing for Great Britain.
215,793
14
6
9. Contingencies for Great Britain for England
50,000
0
0
For Ireland
11,129
7
0
Total
61,129
7
0
10. Volunteer Corps for Great Britain
730,000
0
0
For Ireland.
1,390,567
13
11
Total
2,020,567
13
11
For Great Britain
301,046
8,346,860
14
0
For Ireland
3,103,523
0
10
Deduct for India Forces
22,897
545,628
4
2
Total for Great Britain
278,149
780,232
9
10
Grand Total
10,904,755
10
0
159
160
l
161
162
Mr. Windham
began by adverting to the manner in which the business had been opened by the hon. Secretary, which, he said, though very proper at any ordinary time, and though possibly very proper then, was so different from the view which he felt himself compelled to take of the subject, that his observation, he feared, would appear very little to arise out of the statements which the House had just heard. His view of the subject went to the general de-
163
Poor women have but two;
There's nothing good they say, and nothing right they do.
violence, insult,
aggression;
164
they
quantum
maximum
minimum?
165
to gauge the House,
166
try
possessed:
employed
creation
created?
167
168
(Hush'd in grim repose expects his evening prey,)
169
170
There
171
five
six
four
172
living
inanimate
173
was
174
175
every
any.
176
in paritrochio,
177
corresponding
178
179
180
Redde mihi, Vare, legiones.
181
182
stimulus
Mr. Secretary Yorke.
—Sir; after the very long, and certainly very entertaining speech, which you have just heard, I fear mat I shall neither merit, nor be able to obtain from you and the House, that patience and that a tension, which I shall have ample occasion for, in replying to the attacks that the right. hon. gentleman has made on me, and on most of the measures of the present administration. The hon. gent, has quoted a passage of very indifferent poetry, to prove that mere is "nothing good we say, and nothing wise we do;" but, in my opinion of the country, and of tins House, the present government, if may judge from the experience of the last session of Parliament, or the actual feelings of the people, has little to apprehend from he opposition of the right hon. gentleman, or the application of what he has quoted. During that session, it must be admitted that we heard many excellent opposition
183
184
185
in limine.
186
187
188
Mr. Pitt.
—It is not my intention at present, Sir, to follow the example of my right hon. friend, (Mr. Windham) in taking that detailed and comprehensive view of the subject before the Committee; neither is it my intention to go into any retrospective discussion of the measures of government, nor to inquire whether the extraordinary means with which they were entrusted before the last prorogation of parliament, have been exercised with sufficient vigour and ability. Considering the danger with which the country was threatened as not yet past, convinced that the crisis still impends, and that still we have further efforts to exert, and further precautions to adopt, in order to enable us to meet it, I am anxious to direct your attention only to such points as are peculiarly urgent, and on which delay would be inconvenient, if not dangerous; and to suggest prospectively, the consideration of those objects which are immediately connected with the public security. I am still less inclined at present to examine all the questions that might be included in the resolutions presented to the Committee, opening a wide field of discussion of the conduct of government and the state of our defence. I wish to confine myself particularly to what is more directly before us—the nature, the amount, and the proposed management of the military force of the country. I am the more anxious to do this, as I have the misfortune to differ fundamentally from my right hon. friend, with regard to what should be the nature of that force to which we ought to look as a permanent source of safety throughout the whole of this contest, however long may be its duration. No man thinks more highly than I do of the importance of a regular military force, or of the regular force of this country. No man is more convinced that the excellence of regular military forces is unattainable in the same degree by any species of force which can be employed; but, in the last session of Parliament, I professed an opinion, which I still maintain, that there are other kinds of force to which, as subsidiary
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Mr. Secretary Yorke
observed, that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had urged the necessity of voting more money than was now proposed for the service of the volunteers, in order to make them, as he advised, more perfect, by means of the addition of a field officer and an adjutant; and he had stated his conviction, that this 'would have a very good effect. He wished with the right hon. gent, that this important force should be made as complete as the nature of it was capable, consistently at the same time with necessary economy. But he could not I help observing on that subject, that time would be necessary to consider this matter before it should be adopted. In all the corps adjutants were allowed pay; but it could not be contended that they should be allowed pay for the whole year, if they had to attend only 84 days, as stated by the right hon. gent., and government should not rashly run into this sort of expense. The last act of Parliament made upon this subject provides, that the volunteer corps should be subject to such regulations as his Majesty should think fit to make, and the compulsory clause in the act for calling out the mass, might be referred to as occasion should require. He observed, that although 20 days pay was to be allowed to those who had been trained for 20 days, yet they were not to be allowed it unless they had been trained and exercised on the Sunday preceding. And most of the volunteer corps had been exercised 40 and 50 days, and many of them much more. Now, all the volunteer corps had not only adjutants upon their establishment, but they were entitled to pay, yet they were not entitled to pay until called out; and upon the principle of economy, he did not think that government would be justified in granting them permanent pay, unless their attention to the station was permanent. It could not be expected that they should receive pay for the whole year, for 84 days, any more than for 40 or for 20 days. He thought, however, that what was stated by the right hon. gent. deserved great consideration. He said he wished to be careful of incurring great expense: he did not say it was an expense that ought not to be incurred, although the price was stated to be 500,000l. It certainly was not absolutely necessary to be voted to-night, because the present resolution proposed to the Committee, if adopted as it stood, would
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Mr. Windham
explained what he meant in that part of his speech which adverted to sea fencibles, to refer only to the places in which they were to be employed; all he wanted was, that they should be employed in proper places, and for proper purposes.
Mr. T. Grenville
was surprised that his right hon. friend and relation (Mr. Pitt) had thought it was only expedient at this time, to take a prospective view of public affairs; he considered the present as the natural and fit occasion, not only for examining the military arrangements which government proposed prospectively to adopt, but also for examining what use ministers had made of those powers, which, in a former session, were entrusted to them by Parliament. He did not think any thing said by the right hon. gent, opposite to him (Mr. Yorke) such an answer to the objection of his right hon. friend as to have called on him, or any other of those who embraced his sentiments, to make any observations on the present occasion, had it not been from what fell from his right hon. relation (Mr. Pitt). With every wish to agree in any opinion expressed by that right hon. relative, he could not bring his mind to concur in the sentiments which had fallen from him that night. He thought his right hon. friend had taken a contracted view of the subject. No evidence was before the House of the volunteers being at all in a state of becoming effective. How then could it be argued, that they could ever become so completely effective as to prove a substitute for our regular army? It was not, perhaps, common to give an account to the House of the amount of the regular army. It was easy, however, for any gentleman, comparing the statement of the Sec. of State with the other known branches of our military establishment, to know what that force actually was. The whole was stated by the Sec. at War to amount to 120,000. By subtracting the militia we could at once see the amount of our regular force. The militia was 70,000, which being deducted from the whole regular force, as stated by gentlemen themselves, there remained 50,000. In this number, it was necessary to observe, the army of reserve was comprehended. Was it possible, then, to conceive that such was the force of the regular army of this country?—But he did not wish to stand on any small ground of objection. It was known pretty well what was the
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Lord Castlereagh.
—I perfectly concur in the opinion, with which the right hon. gent, who spoke last (Mr. Grenville) has opened his speech; "that the present is the natural and fit occasion, not only for examining the military arrangement, which government proposes prospectively to adopt, but also for examining what use ministers have made of those powers which, in a former session, were entrusted to them by Parliament;" nor should I be disposed to complain that another right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) should have questioned upon the present occasion the policy of that system of measures, to which the sanction of Parliament was formerly given, did not the review which he has taken of that system, appear to me not so much calculated to guide our policy hereafter, as most unjustly to depreciate and disparage the various efforts, which the country has made for its security, and to deny to all, except the troops enlisted for general service, the share of merit and
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Mr. Fox.
—I do not rise, Sir, to enter into a discussion of all the points that have this night been touched upon in the course of the debate; they are all, no doubt, of high importance, and deserve a distinct and full consideration. But I shall now abstain, as much as possible, from every
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propria qua maribus?
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Edward Fitzgerald.
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was
present,
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—I join with my noble friend (Lord Castlereagh) in the necessity of this country redoubling her energies, in consequence of the envy and immoderate ambition of the enemy with whom we are now seriously contending. It is unquestionably true, that it is a melancholy consideration, that our present necessity is created not by our wealth and our freedom, but by the envy and hatred that wealth and that freedom have excited in the breast of our enemy. The hon. gent, who spoke last, I was happy to hear express his strong conviction of the necessity of putting forth all the energies of this great country. I have now risen, Sir, chiefly to make a few remarks on his wish to know what was the view government have of the character of our numerous and patriotic volunteers. One right hon. gent. dislikes to see them in regimentals; he wishes them not to look like soldiers, and to wear no uniforms. Another right hon. gent, wishes to see them approximated much nearer to regular soldiers. My opinion, Sir, inclines much more to the latter right hon. gentleman's suggestion. I do wish to maintain that force in its strength, and render it available to all the great purposes for which it was instituted. But I wish it to be considered, that upon the present system on which our volunteer strength has grown up and flourished, there is such a hearty and universal cooperation and affection among the various corps, that it might be very unwise to try any sudden changes. The hon. gent, who spoke last says, we should increase: he regular force, and that my noble friend, in his statements, has blended the accounts of the forces in England and Ireland. I am
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Mr. Fox.
—With respect to the impenetrable silence of the right hon. gent. unless on condition of his Majesty's command, it might be well, perhaps, if he had extended that discretion to the case of Ireland also. He is asked, if the government of Ireland did not express a wish for the recall of the commander in chief. He does not say, I never knew of such a wish, but "I see no complaint against General Fox." This is no answer whatever, and the right hon. gent, had better have wrapped himself up in state silence, than have made any such reply. To evade is next to saying nothing. He is silent as to the Prince of Wales; as to the affairs of Ireland he evades the question. How is it possible the Lord Lieut., I again repeat, could at such a moment wish the recall of the commander in chief, and not cast a censure on him? It could not be. I assert that government here, when they knew the disposition and opinion of the government of Ireland, did not take proper means to investigate the cause of their wish, and ascertain where the blame, in fact, existed. In such a state of the case it is trifling to say no censure is implied. It is not consistent with common sense to exact martial law and suspend the Habeas Corpus Act, for a riot so contemptible, as the rising of the 23d of July was now represented. In the nature of things, it cannot be that ministers are sincere on that point; and, if the rising be once serious, blame must attach somewhere.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—I can only repeat on that subject what was said upon it by a right hon. friend near me, (Mr. Yorke) when the debate relative to those, bills took place. If the right hon. gent, did not then chose to attend in his place, he has no right now to call on the subject pending another discussion.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
—"Sir; the unprovoked way in which the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) has thought proper to attack a noble relative of mine, and the unusual terms of asperity be has used, makes it necessary for me to say a few words. Upon the subject of Ireland, I say, let every one come forward and explain what he knows: then, "Fiat justitia ruat Cœlum," If the right hon. gent, means, in the exculpation of the
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Mr. Fox.
—In no sense can my observations be considered as an unprovoked attack, as the consideration of the character of general officers arises naturally out of the subject now before the House, and I always thought it right to go into those points. I have some reasons to think, that the government of Ireland was well attached to the commander in chief, and that between him and the Lord Lieut, a perfect good-will subsisted, previous to the events of the 23d. After that period a coolness arose between them; the abuses which took place, might have arisen from certain rumours, traceable to the castle. As to one, I can say, he conceived the other had spoken of him in a way which he did not deserve, and that he had not been informed, as it was intimated, of the intended rising on the 23d. If he had been so informed, was it not natural the lord mayor would have been told? It is impossible it could be otherwise. I repeat again, that the government of Ireland must have been surprised, or they were accomplices in the death of Lord Kilwarden. In the same situation, I equally should have said the same of the commander in chief. The question is, whether that officer had communicated to him any sufficient ground of alarm, to authorize him to take measures of precaution, and, in particular, to apprize Col. Brown of the risk. What, if it can proved that the Lord Lieut, gave him orders not to alarm any one! And, as to the steps taken by him, what, if his lordship sent to express his surprise, and said, I suppose, by what you are doing, you must act on some information unknown to me! The letter sent to the commander in chief was not received; so the Lord Lieut, had more ground than he to conceive the extent of the danger. On the existence of a coolness, which compelled the government here to choose between the Lord Lieut, and commander in chief, they did, as was natural, determine for the former; but what I complain of is, that they never instituted any inquiry into the cause of that coolness. It was, however, obvious to common observation, that two such persons could not originate a misuuder-
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Admiral Berkeley.
—I am sure the right non. gent. (Mr. Yorke) is above all wish of being misunderstood. Does he mean to say, that the commander in chief of Ireland knew and was apprised of the intended rising on the 23d of July.
Mr. Secretary York
—I meant to say, that the commander in chief had every opportunity of knowing the information disclosed at the Castle, on the morning of the 23d, that the Lord Lieutenant had.
Mr. Corry.
—As I have been in Dublin since the unfortunate events of the 23d of July, it may be expected I should say something on this subject, upon which I made it my business when there 10 make a minute inquiry. The civil government were apprised of an intended rising on the 23d of July. This clearly appears. Inconsequence they warned the civil magistrates, at the head of which was the superintendant of Dublin. The mistake is, that officer is unknown here. The lord mayor of Dublin is not like the lord mayor of London. It is not he, but the superintendent who has the charge of the peace. He was informed of the rising, and actually armed, and called out an additional number of peace officers; from this, it is clear, the government of Ireland we re not surprized, and that they look every step which would be thought essential. The interview at the castle, between the commander in chief and the Lord Lieutenant could be proved. The details of the intelligence were then laid before them, and the civil government had certainly a right to conclude, that the commander in chief hail taken every military precaution which the circumstances would warrant. Whether he did or not, or what those precautions might be, I am not prepared to say, as, in fact, made no inquiry on those subjects. That the conspiracy existed, and that to a dangerous degree, I conceive to be the foundation of the late bills, for continuing martial law and suspending the operation of the Habeas Corpus Act. With this object, the late insurrection is unconnected. That was, in truth, contemptible. On the com vision of these two circumstances, the former insurrection and present conspiracy, depends all the difference of opinion now and lately expressed; whereas, in fact, there is no inconsistency, no contradiction. The insurrection was contemptible; the conspi-
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Lord de Blaquiere.
—I cannot admit, Sir, that the insurrection on the 23d of July was a matter to be lightly treated. It was, in my opinion, a rank and dangerous rebellion. The castle of Dublin was certainly surprised. A plan was on foot to stop the mail coaches, and if that had taken place, the whole country would have risen. Under these circumstances, I think inquiry should be instituted, for heavy blame, must attach somewhere.
The Hon. C. Hely Hutchinson.
—Sir; upon a question of national defence, and at a moment critical as the present, I feel it to be my duty, notwithstanding the lateness of the hour, to trouble you with a very few observations. I give ministers full credit for the exertions they have made in caliing forth the strength of the country by tire volunteer associations, undoubtedly a force highly constitutional, and although not new in theory, has now, for the first time, been thus extensively adopted. Notwithstanding the firm reliance I place on the zeal and loyalty of the volunteer force, which I doubt not, will in the hour of attack be found highly service able, and solicitous to encounter every danger, I cannot at the same time but lament, that ministers have not deemed it advisable to decrease that species of force, and in a very considerable degree to augment the troops of the line; but, upon this topic, I purposely refrain at this late hour from enlarging, particularly as it has been already so ably and fully discussed. My principal, indeed sole object for troubling you at this moment, is in consequence of a subject which has been introduced by an hon. member (Mr. Fox) who has lately spoken. Upon it I have long had a decided opinion. I consider it a subject of great public moment, and I feel that in times like the present, to hesitate to deliver such an opinion, would be to shrink from the discharge of my public duty.—Such is the nature of the contest in which we are involved, so awfully critical the present state of things, so inveterate our foe, so various and formidable his resources, and so unceasing his machinations to destroy us, that it has been found necessary that his Majesty should avail himself of the appearance in arms of almost every description of his subjects; and so serious does his Majesty-deem the meditated attack, that he has been graciously pleased to gratify and animate his faithful subjects, by declaring his royal
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Mr. Pitt and the Chanceller of the Exchequer
respectively spoke in explanation, relative to some points which had been discussed in an early part of the debate—Mr. Windham and the Chancellor of the Exchequer also spoke, severally in explanation.—Mr. Pitt, in further explanation observed, that a sufficient number of field officers for the purposes he had mentioned with respect to volunteer corps could without difficulty be obtained. He did not mean persons who should hold that rank at the time of their coming to those corps; there were a number of persons of the rank of captains, of a certain number of years standing, who would be fully competent to the purpose, and would make very respectable field officers.—The questions were then put, on the different resolutions moved by the Sec. at War, as well as those moved by the Sec. of die Ordnance Department, all of which were severally agreed to by the Committee. The House then resumed, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday.—The Committee of Ways and Means, and the other orders of the day were then deferred till Monday, and at 3 o'clock the House adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Saturday, December 10, 1803.
The bills on the table were forwarded one stage; and the Curate's relief bill, sugar duty drawback bill, Irish distillery bill, and Irish provision bill, were brought up from the Commons.—Adjourned to Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, Dec. 10, 1803.
[MINUTES]
Mr. Hobhouse
brought up the report of the commitee of supply. The resolutions were agreed to
nem. con
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[VOLUNTEER EXEMPTION BILL]
Mr. Secretary Yorke
in pursuance of the notice he had given yesterday, rose to move for leave to bring in a bit to explain and amend the acts of 42 and 43 GEO. III. so far as they related to the exemptions to be enjoyed by volunteers. From what he had heard in the House yesterday, and what he had learned from other sources, he knew that much difficulty existed in the interpretation of these acts. It was indeed hardly to be expected that every person should hue read them over, so as to know precisely their provisions in the manner the law required He therefore thought it right to prefer this bill for the purpose of explaining those acts in that part where explanation was most immediately necessary. The bill which he meant to prefer would go only to regulate the exemptions. There were other points also, he was aware, which required explanation, and it might perhaps be necessary to go into an entire review of the volunteer system, in order to correct and strengthen it; but as this should be done not hastily, but with mature consideration, he thought it better to defer it till after the recess. The object of the bill he meant to propose would be, first to enable such commanders of corps as had not given in their returns to give them in now, and to provide that the certificate of such commander should be effectual to secure the benefit of die exemption to the individual. This exemption extended equally to the militia and the army of reserve. The return should specify, whether the men attended with arms and otherwise accoutered, so as to be considered as effective; if he attended without arms, there was to be a special return, stating the reason why, and this special return, and the certificates founded upon it, should also give a title to the exemptions. It was extremely advisable, while the exemptions were secured to every person who was entitled to them, to do every thing that could be done to prevent abuses arising from too much relaxation: he thought it necessary to provide that from the 1st of May next, 24 days regular attendance in training and exercise
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Mr. Curwen
was sorry the right hon. gent, was not prepared at present with any measures to enforce the continuance of the service, of the volunteers. The danger was, that many of them as soon as the present ballot was over, would attend no longer, and thus being lost to the militia and the army of reserve, would be lost also to the volunteer corps. He wished therefore, that the present measure were coupled with some general regulations for the corps. He thought it wise in ministers to be as saving of the public money as was consistent with the public interests, and the public safety, but at the same time he thought it would be wise to enter on some general plan for the improvement of the volunteer corps. He did not think that the plan proposed last night (by Mr. Pitt) would go down. The volunteer officers were pledged to their corps to accompany them where ever they should be ordered, and of course they would not tike that a field officer should be put over their heads, neither would the appointment of such an officer be agreeable to the volunteers who composed the corps. He thought it would be much better to give serjeant-majors and adjutants in greater numbers, to give a second serjeant, and a corporal, with permanent pay. It was well known that the discipline of the men depended on their haying good non-commissioned officers. He was sure too much could not he said of the honourable principles and feelings of the volunteers in general. But though an ignominious discharge from the ranks would have the fullest effect in many instances, it would not in all. He thought it better that intoxication, disorderly and unsolder-like conduct should be punished by a small fine, peremptorily and immediately enforced. He was-sure that the effect of this, and some similar regulations, would produce a degree of good conduct and emulation, which would
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Mr. Hiley
Addington was pleased with the bill that was proposed, but at the same time he concurred in the propriety of what had been said by the hon. gent, who had just sat down. He was sure that the plan proposed last night would not do; if it would be compulsory, it would excite discontent and if it were to be optional, it would be nugatory, as very few would be inclined to avail themselves of it. He believed at present there were only four or five corps in the kingdom that had field officers of such a de cription. He was sure an adjutant would be a more effective person; and it should be recollected that five years service in the army was necessary to qualify those adjutants—But whether those adjutants could be expected to attend drills 84 days without a larger allowance It was impossible for day labourers, of which description of men the greater number of country corps consisted; that with he had the honour to command consisted of them exclusively, to attend without pay. He had taken upon himself the risk of having his corps imperfect from the want of an officer of that description recommended by the hon. gent. Ser-
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Mr. Secretary York
said, there was this general regulation at present to render the volunteer corps complete and effective; that the corps would be disbanded, and the compulsory clauses resorted to, if they were not filled to the amount required by his Majesty's government. This was the standard which it was thought fit to adopt at present. Several other regulations may be useful, but ha thought better not to press them now. He did not think his Majesty's ministers would be justified in entering at once into the expense which would be required for the measure recommended by the hon gent. It was the best way to commence with an expense as low as possible, which could be increased if that was found necessary, whereas, if we communed with a high expenditure, which we afterwards found we could not reduce, the improvement could not be made without the evidence of our actual loss. He begged also to impress the point urged by a noble lord (Castlereagh) last night, that it would be impossible to furnish such a number of officers from any; army so much drawn upon already There were 1500 corps, and if an adjutant were to be allowed to each at 100
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
concurred in what had fallen from his hon. friend, and in a great measure with what had fallen from the hon. gent, over the way (Mr. Curwen). He concurred in the principle of what had been proposed last night, as far as it was consistent with other principles, and parti-
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, December 12, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
The Marquis of Stafford was sworn, and took his seat, on his accession to that peerage; as was also the Earl of Bristol, on a similar occasion.—The lord Chancellor presented a petition from Allen M'Leod, who had been sentenced to be fined and imprisoned, bating his inability to pay the fine inflicted, and praying that their Lordships would be pleased, in consideration of his long confinement, to grant him remission of the line. The petition was ordered to lie on the table.—Lord King moved, that the proper officer be desired to lay before the House an account of the Rank of England Notes in circulation on the 25th of each month, from Feb. to Nov last, distinguishing those under £5. Ordered.—On his Lordship's motion, a similar order was made relative to notes of the Bank of Ireland.—The Bills on the table were forwarded in their respective stages.
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[EXPIRING LAWS BILL.]—
The Expiring Laws Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be commuted to-morrow.
Lord Suffolk
requested the House to take; notice that certain annuities granted in the I time of Queen Anne, for carrying on the I war, expired in 1804. He wished to know from a noble Sec. of State (Lord Hawkesbury) what was the amount of this sum, what was its intended application, and whether it was destined to go to the consolidated fund?
Lord Hawkesbury
replied, that he was not then prepared to state the amount nor the application But this could, however, be no obstacle in the way of the bill, as Parliament would still have the power of disposing of this money in any manner that might be thought exepedient.
[CURATES'S RELIEF BILL.]—
On the motion for the second reading of the bill for granting a sum of 80001. towards the relief of curates,
The Earl of Suffolk
observed, that although he entirely approved of the principle of the bill, which he considered as calculated to ameliorate the situation of inferior clergymen, he could not think it went far enough. The sum which it provided towards their relief was not sufficient. Indeed, so very hard was the. condition of them, that he had received several letters stating, that the salaries which they enjoyed had not in many instances been paid to the full extent provided by the legislature. The noble lord suggested the propriety, in order to obviate these difficulties, that the money should be paid into the hands of some banker in the neighbourhood of the place where the party resides.—The bill was read a second time and committed for to-morrow.
[IRISH HABEAS CORPUS AND MARTIAL LAW BILL.]—
Lord Hawkesbury
rose to move the second reading of the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension Bill.—His lordship began his speech by stating to the House, that though it might not be exactly in order, he should, with the view of facilitating any discussion which might take place, introduce any observations which occurred to him to be necessary to justify the motion for the second reading of the Irish Martial Law Bill, which would follow the motion for the second reading of the bill now before the House. He felt himself authorized in pursuing this course, more particularly when he considered, that the same arguments which would convince their lordships of the necessity and expediency of the one bill, would be equally applicable to the re-enactment of
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The Earl of Suffolk
rose, to offer a few remarks to the House. It was not his intention to oppose the motion of the noble Secretary of State for the second reading of the bill more immediately before the House; nor for the second reading of the Martial Law Bill, by which it was to be followed. He lamented exceedingly the necessity of such measures, but, believing them to be necessary, he could not, consistently with his duty, object to their adoption. What he chiefly rose to advert to at present, was the extraordinary deficiency of information which their lordships had to complain of respecting the present situation of Ireland. For his own part he was quite at a loss to know what was the state of that country, from any thing which had fallen from his Majesty's ministers. This was, however, a subject so extremely interesting, that he could not reconcile it to himself not to make some attempt to obtain fuller information. The adoption of measures of severity proved that there was considerable disaffection, and that the people conceived themselves to labour under grievance's which alienated their affections from the govern-
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Lord King
followed, and took occasion to animadvert strongly on the situation in which their lordships were called on, to pass bills of the nature which were now under their consideration. The fact was, that not a single tittle of evidence had been produced, to establish either their expediency, or, what was more important, their necessity. Ministers had called upon their lordships to pass bills, which they themselves allowed to be of a description only to be resorted to on. occasions of an extraordinary nature, without adducing a shadow of evidence, to prove that the situation of Ireland was such as to: require such proceedings. It was not to be forgotten, that such a call was not of a trivial or unimportant kind. It made an appeal I to their lordships of a description which demanded the most serious consideration. When tire question was, whether their lordships would pass a bill which would have the effect of literally putting about four millions of subjects out of his Majesty's peace, he begged leave to ask, whether it was either decent or parliamentary to call on Parliament to consent to a measure of such magnitude, without some striking proofs of its necessity or its expediency? It had been urged by the noble lord who introduced the subject, that the powers vested in the executive government by the Martial Law Bill were in no instance abused. His lordship contended, that this was not at all an argument which ought to have any considerable force. The question was not how the powers
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The Marquis of Sligo
rose, he said, merely to say a few words in explanation. He supposed he was one of those alluded to, who had given a favourable view of the general loyalty of the population of Ireland. He had no wish to retract what he had formerly asserted on this subject; he only wished, that what he had said should be properly understood. He had asserted, that the temper of the people of Ireland was materially improved, and he had seen nothing to induce him to alter this opinion. True it was, that on the 23d of July, an insurrection had broke out, attended with circumstances of the utmost atrocity. In point of numbers, this certainly was a most contemptible and a most abortive attempt. He must, however, fully accede to the opinion delivered by the noble Secretary of State, that the insurrection, contemptible as it was in point of numbers or efficiency, was founded on the same principles which the rebels had avowed. These principles were, separation from Great-Britain, the formation of a separate government, and that plan aided and abetted by the power of France. He was decidedly favourable to the re-enactment of both the bills. He was sure that they were essential to the maintenance of the tranquillity of Ireland, and if they were not passed he dreaded the most disastrous consequences.
Lord Granville,
who, in common with the other noble lords who had preceded him, declared, that he did not rise with the view of giving his decided opposition to the motion of the noble Secretary of State, who had begun the discussion. He professed, however, that he rose under circumstances of peculiar embarrassment, to offer his senti-
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Inter arma leges silent
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Lord Limerick
made a short but spirited reply. He had himself but? very short time ago left Ireland. He had made it his business to examine carefully into the present situation of that country, and he now rose to state 0 their lordships what was the result of that examination. What he was about to state was grounded on no loose or idle rumours but was the result of positive knowledge and of honest feeling Standing, then, in his place is a representative of the peerage of Ireland, he took on himself decidedly to assert, and he was confident that he should not be contradicted, that the re-enactment of both the bills now before their lordships was essentially necessary to the continuance of tranquility that part of the united empire. He could, with equal safety, make the same declaration in behalf of all the loyal part of the community in that country. They, to a man, expected that the bids would be renewed. They would consider any government which would not propose their renewal as indifferent to their best interests, and would curse the hour in which a united legislature was formed, which would not pass for their protection the measures which had been found so beneficial under a local legislature. The noble lord took occasion to allude to what has been said about the atrocity of the 23d of July, an atrocity, the infamy of which he was afraid would not be easily effaced from the character of his unfortunate country. With those who describe the insurrection of that day as a contemptible riot, he could not possibly agree. Contemptible with regard to number it certainly was; but when its objects and ends v. ere considered, it was of a very different description. He would assert, with-out fear of contradiction, that it bore distinctly all the features of the rebellion of 1798 that it looked to the same object of Irish separation from this country, drat it was fomented before the breaking out of the war by French influence, and that latterly it was encouraged by the hope of French assistance. Such ware his ideas of the insurrection of the.23d of July, and such he was sure were the views entertained of it by all the best affected, and most intelligent persons in Ireland.—As to the want of information adverted to by noble lords, he protested that he was altogether astonished at such language. The insurrection of the 23d of July, and the events which distinguished it, were matters of universal notoriety, and it was absurd to say that they did not furnish grounds to shew the necessity of the measure, It bad been contended against the
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The Lord Chancellor
said, that he would not have thought it necessary to trouble their lordships on the present occasion, had ho not deemed it a duty which he owed, both to himself and to the House, in a question of a constitutional nature, to express openly and broadly the ground on which he supported the measure. He, along with the noble lord who spoke last, had, on a former occasion, given his most decided approbation of the adoption of a similar measure in. this country at a period when the exigency of the case seemed to demand it. He felt gratitude at the recollection of that circumstance, and he entertained, and, to the last moment of his existence, should entertain, the deepest sense of gratitude to the noble lord, and to his colleagues in office, for the adoption of that measure. To it, he was morally convinced, their lordships were indebted for their present tranquillity and comfort, and for the privilege which they now enjoyed, of deliberating how far they should submit to a temporary relinquishment of port of their rights, for the permanent preservation of the whole. That the measures now proposed were necessary he was conscious in his own mind. The whole circumstances, which had occurred, had convinced him of that necessity'. He agreed with the noble lord, that it was not on the word of ministers that such necessity was to be taken for granted. Noble lords must be convinced that it actually existed, before they could agree to any measure which had for its object to encroach on the constitutional liberties of any part of the community. In considering this point, he could not throw out of his recollection that a measure, similar to the present, had been adopted with regard to Ireland, on the representation of several of the members for that country, after it had been previously gone into by their own legislature. Whether properly or not, he should not pretend to say, the measure had been allowed to drop; and another application for its renewal became necessary in consequence of the proceedings of the 23d July. It had been said this was a contemptible riot, and DO insurrection; and that, therefore, we were not called on to continue the harsh enactments now proposed. His lordship said, that it was difficult in such a case, to say what was contemptible, and dangerous to sport with a
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Earl Darnley
insisted that no parliamentary ground was laid for the. present measures. He did not, however, presume to say that they were not necessary. The House, however, ought to be fully convinced of their necessity, and that upon parliamentary grounds, before they passed them. He adverted to the conduct of the government of Ireland, which he was clearly of opinion, was surprised on the 23d of July. Blame, on this account, must attach to ministers, and the recal of the commander in chief seemed to fix it upon him. A noble lord (Limerick) had quoted the opinions of certain
state doctors,
a doctor!"
Lord Hobart
said, that he would not have troubled the House on the present occasion, had it not been for the concluding observations of the noble lord who spoke last. He knew that no blame did attach to government on that day. They were aware of the attack, and had given intimation to the commander of the forces and to the Superintendant of the Police. Government could not divine in what street the insurrection might breakout; but had the rebels proceeded to the Castle, to the Bank, or to the depot of arms, they would have found every thing in readiness for their reception. He thought it proper to state, that no blame was imputable to the commander of the forces. His dismissal from that situation was at his own request, and his immediate employment afterwards was not meant as a recompence for that situation, but because government would have deemed themselves culpable, had they allowed the military talents of an officer of such known abilities to remain unemployed at the present period.—The two bills were then read as cond time, and ordered to be committed tomorrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, December 12, 1803.
[MINUTES]—
Mr. Baldwin
presented a petition from the prisoners confined for debt in the county gaol of Cardigan. Ordered to lie upon the table.—Mr. Corry brought up an estimate of the expenses attending
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[REPORT ON THE ARMY ESTIMATES]
On the motion for bringing up the report on the army estimates,
Colonel Crawford
rose and spoke as follows:—Sir; in he debate which took place on Friday last, the Committee was so long occupied in attending to the speeches of gentlemen either the most distinguished for their talents or of the greatest weight from their official situations, that I thought it better to defer offering my opinions on the subject until the report should be brought up.—Amongst the various topics which have been, or naturally may be introduced into this discussion, there is to one which more prominently presents itself to my mind, than that which in the last session formed the ground of a specifick motion in this Mouse. I mean, the establishment of a military council.—At a time when (in addition to the immense sums that the public is called upon in other ways to contribute for military purposes) Parliament deems it necessary to vote establishments so large and expensive as those contained in the estimates now before us: at a time, Sir, when we are engaged in a war the met arduous and critical in which this country was ever involved, it undoubtedly is the first duty of every member of this House, to suggest all those means which in his judgment would conduce to the bringing our military system to the highest pitch of perfection, and to the placing die national defence and security upon a great,
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military,
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nature
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one
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entirely
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mistake
commenced?
if we are really exposed to invasion,
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Mr. Rose
said, it was by no means his intention to oppose any of the resolutions, but he wished to make a few observations connected with the general subject before the House, The principle point on which he meant to trouble the House, related to the measures necessary to be adopted in the event of marchingivotunteers to the coast. It appeared to him that the sum, proposed to be voted for volunteers, was too small, because, upon the best calculation he could make, it would require very little less than one million. If they were to be employed at all in that way, he thought that some provision ought to be made for their families. Upon this subject he had lately had some correspondence with one of his Majesty's principal Secretaries of State, and he begged to acknowledge the great readiness which that right hon. gent, bad shewn to attend to his representations. There was in one of the acts a provision upon this subject, in case the volunteers were called out upon actual service. Some doubt had arisen respecting the word "called" out on actual service; but, in his opinion, if they were out, some provision ought to be made, for their families, Some or the corps in his neighbourhood were now upon actual duty, and when they offered their services fos that purpose, they made no stipulations upon the subject. When he learnt from the Lord Lieut. that it was wished that some of the volunteers should march to the coast, he assembled the corps nearest to him, and when the proposal was made to them, they cheerfully offered their services: of 296 there was but one man that made the smallest objection to it. Afterwards, some of them came to him, and represented the impossibility of their maintaining their families. The corps, to which he alluded, was in general composed of labouring men, who earned, upon an average, about nine shillings a week; with this they were enabled 10 maintain their families. If they were marched from home, they would receive a shilling a day, out of which it was obvious they could not maintain both themselves and their families, it would, therefore, be absolutely necessary that some provision should be made for their families, otherwise it would be impossible for them to
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Mr. Secretary Yorke
entirely concurred in the opinion if the right hon. gent, who had just sat dow; but thought the subject might be more properly dicussed on the particular resolution than on the report. The volunteers, in his own opinion, were not entitled to such allowances, either by the 42d or 43d o!" his Majesty, though the Board of Treasury had issued orders to the receivers general to make them, in case of volunteers called out on actual service. But if any doubt existed in the minds of other gentlemen on the subject, a clause to remove it might be introduced into the Bill, now before the House, for amending the Volunteer Acts, which he proposed to have read a second time this dry, in order that it should be committed tomorrow. Government had not called on the services of the volunteer corps to the extent that might have been thought desirable, from the difficulty of procuring accurate returns. The number now on duty voluntarily was about 14,000 He was not aware of any thing more he had to say: when the resolution should be under the consideration of the House, he should take that opportunity of stating his opinion as to any observations it may give rise to.
Mr. Pitt
did not mean to object to the Report, because he fully concurred in the resolutions contained in it, to the utmost of their extent. He rose only to correct some mistatements from misconception, which had been made of his sentiments on a former day. With respect to a proposition which he had thought it his duty to submit to the House, on that occasion, for the formation of volunteer corps into battalions, and the appointment of field officers to each battalion, one misconception had possibly arisen from his wish to save the time of the House, in not going at length into the explanation of his proposal. So far from having for its object the appointment of held officers, who were to have a control over the colonels commandants of the corps, nothing could be more repugnant to his feelings or sentiments. He had, he thought, distinctly stated, that his sole and great object was, to afford the commandants of corps the benefit of the assistance and advice of officers not their superiors; but, from experience, competent to aid them effectually by their instruction; and the more he reflected, the more he was convinced of the advantages that would result from the adoption of his proposal. No commandant could look with confidence
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Mr. Secretary Yorke
agreed with his right hon. friend(Mr. Pitt) in the opinion he entertained respecting the efficiency of the volunteer corps. He was also ready to admit, that every possible effort should be made to render them as perfect as possible in discipline. He, however, doubted much whether he proposition of his right hon. friend could be carried into effect to be extent he wished. Adjutants and serjeant-majors, he did not deny, ought to be appointed in every case
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Mr. Pitt
said, he would take an opportunity of bringing forward his proposition on the resolution respecting the volunteers.
Mr. Curwen,
as one who had mistaken the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), declared himself satisfied with his explanation. He thought the appointment of field officers would be too expensive, but was of opinion, that adjutants and Serjeant majors should be appointed to battalions, and that the adjutants should have the rank of captain by brevet.—The Report was then received. On the first resolution, that a force of 129,039 men be granted for guards and garrisons, being read,
Mr. Pitt
expressed his satisfaction at so large a vote, but desired to be informed what the actual effective force of the country was at present, what its deficiency from the number in the vote, and what mode was proposed for supplying the deficiency?
Lord Castlereagh
supposed the right hon. gentleman alluded to a statement of his on Friday; he had then stated the effective force of the United Kingdom to be 176,000 men, 80,000 of whom were militia, and of course 96,000 regulars, of whom 26,000 were only for limited service, so that the force for general service was 69,000 rank and file. The most material deficiency, therefore, was in the regulars. There were of the 50,000 of which the army of reserve was to be composed, 14 or 15,000 not yet raised, which arose from the time of the year at which the act passed, in harvest. In Ireland, too, it was later, but the execution of it was proceeding favourably at present, and if the country were to continue its efforts, that deficiency would soon be made up. The crown would have a discretion in promoting the recruiting of the regular army from the army of reserve, by allowing a bounty.
Mr. Pitt
wished to be informed by what mode the deficiency, below the number voted, which, in his view amounted to about 23,000, was proposed to be raised in a short time. He considered the reserve as regulars, though engaged only for limited service. As drummers and non-commissioned officers were not included, they, he supposed, might be considered equal to 9 or 10,000.
Lord Castlereagh
replied, that the deficiency, making allowance for drummers, &c. did not exceed 20,000, which was to be made up by the 15,000 of the army of reserve, not yet raised, and by such modes as should be deemed most likely to promote the general service of recruiting. If the country would put its shoulders to the busi-
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Mr. Pitt
observed here that chearmy of reserve was by the act intended to have been raised in proportion to the population of the several districts, and no substitute was to have been received who should not be of the same, or of an adjacent county. The provisions of the act were violated whenever crimps were employed to procure substitutes, and considerable inconvenience was felt in many places, by adhering to the dispositions of the act.—After a few words from the Secretary at War and Mr. Fuller, the resolution was agreed to.—The several other resolutions were then read and agreed to.—On the question being put on the last resolution relative to the volunteers,
Mr. Pitt
said, he was sorry to be obliged on this resolution, again to address the House, on the subject of his proposition. The objections of the Right Hon. Sec. seemed to him to be founded on two or three grounds; first, a doubt whether a sufficient number of field officers could be procured; 2dly, an apprehension of creating discontent amongst the officers of the volunteer corps; and 3dly, the injury that the officers thus employed would sustain by being placed on half-pay after the war. The two first appeared inconsistent with each other. The first proceeded on a supposition that 4 or 500 would be necessary, and the second 011 the supposition that the corps would be dissatisfied; but as his proposition extended only to such as should apply, if there should not be many applications the first objection. as to the number would be done away, and if many should apply as he hoped all would, then there, could be no discontent, and the second objection vanished. But he maintained, that a sufficient number could be supplied from the line. Each regiment consisted of 750, had two lieut. colonels, two majors, and ten captains, and the question therefore would be, whether it was more material to the public security that every old regiment should have its number of old captains complete, or every battalion of 1,000 volunteers, have an efficient field officer to prepare them, by discipline, to accomplish the common object of all, the effectual defence and security of their country? But, if the regiments of the line could not afford the numbers necessary, the half-pay officers might be employed, or those who had retired from the service, or from amongst
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
considered the reasons advanced by his right hon. friend, against adopting the proposition to its lull extent satisfactory. He concurred in the principle, but he had doubts of its practicability. The number of volunteers in the united empire was 43,0,000, which, if formed into battalions of 500 each, and from local circumstances a greater number could not be assembled, would require 860 field officers. He admitted that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), had distinctly stated battalions, not corps, on a former occasion.—The half-pay could not supply any officers, the whole on that establishment having been appointed to the reserve. It would, therefore, be necessary to resort to the regulars. The whole amount of the regiments in the united kingdom was 70; there were 25 or 26 regiments of cavalry; but taking the whole at 700, to supply 860 each battalion should
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Mr. Windbam
did not mean to trouble the House at any length, after what he had said on a Conner occasion; but, as many topics were then omitted, and some important suggestions had since been made, he thought it not wholly unnecessary to say a few words.—His right hon. friend under the garner (Mr. Pitt), had explained and enforced with his usual ability, the measure which he had wished to see adopted for the improvement of the volunteer system; observing, with too much truth, that his order respect, were diametrically opposite to the Mr. Windham. He lamented the fact, and not the less sincerely, because it must happen in consequence, that his ideas be diametrically opposite to those to his right hon. friend. It was always painful to him to differ from his right hon. friend, with whom he so generally agreed: and independent of that feeling, there was commonly the further cause of regret, that his opinion, so opposed, had less chance of being received. It was not on that account, however, less necessary, that he should state the grounds, on which his opinion was formed.—His objections certainly did not arise from any general feeling adverse to voluntary service. On the contrary, he had always strongly declared himself in favour of voluntary service, as opposed to that which was compulsory: but voluntary service did not necessarily mean service of volunteer corps, such as they were now constituted. Here and there, perhaps, the cases might concur. One of the corps which he should have looked to, though resembling in some degree those to which he was objecting, was the corps of which his right hon. friend was at the head: and which had contributed, probably not a little, to lead him to the ideas which he now entertained respecting volunteer corps in general. This was a corps, formed in peculiar circumstances, and with peculiar advantages both in respect of its leader, and of the men of whom it was composed, His right hon. friend was not
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six
one
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Ex quo-vis ligno, &c.;
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recruiting
Pars minima est ipsa puella sui.
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were
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accidence.
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Mr. Erskine
—I have listened, Sir, to the right hen. gent, under the gallery (Mr. Pitt) with much attention; to most of his sentiments respecting the volunteers with perfect satisfaction, and certainly if ever there was a subject which more than another claims the attentive consideration of Parliament, it is that which now forms the matter in discussion, and which involves the means of providing for the defence of the empire. At the same time, I cannot help observing, that to a mind less enlightened than that of the right hon. gent, on the lower bench (Mr. Windham), it ought to have occurred, that this was a subject which ought to be discussed with moderation and temper; that the House was called upon to deliberate upon measures for the security of the country; and that it was net quite becoming in any member, under such circumstances, to enter into vain and splenetic criticisms on the past. Whatever may have been the imperfections of the volunteers, it cannot be maintained, by any sober thinking mind, that this is a moment at which they ought to be disbanded. Does the right hon. gent, mean to recommend that these valuable troops should be dismissed, and that our defence should be left entirely to the care of the regular army? Is it possible that he can seriously urge any thing so exceptionable, so absurd? and yet, if such are net his views, why persevere in depreciating the volunteers, in endeavouring to make them think little of themselves, and to make the enemy despise them. Whatever the object of the right hon. gent, may be, certain it is, that the tendency of his language is to encourage the attempt of invasion, and to depress the spirit of those who are ready to oppose it. Really it is difficult to understand the views of the right hon. gent. Does he reflect upon the probable consequences of his conduct? or does he mean to utter opinions in that House, in order to encourage others to publish out of
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Mr. Windbam
here called the hon. gent. to order, and told him, that before he ventured to state any thing in that House as a fact applying to any member, he ought to have taken care to ascertain how far it was well founded.
Mr. Erskine
continued:—I assert, Sir that the sentiments of the right hon. gent, are likely to be productive of great mischief, and hold out an encouragement to the licenser of the press Indeed, from what I have heard of the right hon. gentleman's observations, I apprehend that any man who should dare to print what the right hon. gentleman said, would be guilty of a misdemeanour. I apprehend that the man who would disparage the whole military force of his country, who would consider it as in a state of the greatest danger, and who would maintain that all we have done for our country is only likely to involve us in ruin, and is founded on a system so mistaken in its principles as to lead to destruction rather than to safety—such a man, I say, is a fit object for animadversion and censure. I do not mean to say, that the right hon. gentleman's sentiments in that House are cognizable in a court of law, but that the repetition of such remarks out of doors would be subject to reprehension. The first matter I take into consideration is this:—we are to see what the situation of the country was when war was declared against France. Our military force was not then sufficient to put the country in a state of security; considering the immense armies of France, and the determination of the person at the head of the French government to use means for our destruction which never were carried so nearly into effect as those that now threaten the country. At the time when the war commenced it was necessary, as we could not foresee whether the attempt would be made, that we should receive the voluntary offers of persons coming forward for the general defence. The right hon. gent. says he considers this as an armed democracy. I cannot conceive how it is an armed democracy when it consists of all ranks of men, and some of the greatest and most opulent men in the country, all of whom receive commissions from the crown. When compulsory measures are resorted to, the men may desert; when you take men by force into-the field, you cannot have the same reliance upon them as when their efforts are spontaneous and free. By the present system all the influence of society are bound up toge-
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Mr. Pitt
rose in explanation: he did not mean, he said, that the field officers whom he proposed to add to volunteer corps, should be placed over the commanders, but should be subordinate to them.—As to the circumstance of a commanding officer's applying to his corps for their consent, it never entered into his contemplation. He had heard that night, for the first time, of a committee for the regulation and management of corps, and he had heard it with regret, as he conceived that such corps could never be well disciplined, and could never be made either useful or energetic. With respect to the corps which he had the honour to command, the fact was, that whatever superiority of discipline it had acquired, it went in support of his suggestion, as it was entirely to be attributed to the assistance of regular officers of ability, whose exertions had been unremitting in bringing the corps to that state of discipline.
Mr. Courtenay
declared that, he never heard such an extravagant speech from the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), even when he was a minister, as he had delivered this evening; men seldom improved in extra
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Dr. Laurence
supported Mr. Windham's arguments. On the subject of charging sides and doctrines, no person he said, had varied so much as his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Erkine) who spoke now quite in an opposite strain from that which he held in the last war. He condemned the ideas of military obedience which the volunteer corps had formed. Some of them engaged to obey all lawful commands of their officers, reserving of course to themselves the right of judging the legality, than which nothing could be more to reign to the character of a soldier. He did not distrust English valour, but he thought half discipline a dangerous doing. He could not be thoroughly satisfied with a force which required so much to be done to keep it in good humour. All that had been said went to prove, that we should have in the volunteers, good-humoured soldiers, and aimable captains. If the great talents of the right hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Pitt) were not sufficient to make him an officer without experience, what was to be expected from others? The present enormous bounties were a grievous evil; and to this they were to be imputed. The learned doctor concluded with again impressing the arguments of his right hon. friend Mr. Windham.
Lord Castlcreagh
wished merely to state the fact as to the charge that the present military system destroyed the ordinary recruiting.—Fie ventured, on the general impression he had, to deny the fact. The ordinary recruiting was impaired in some little degree, but it was stated beyond what the fact would wan ant. Seven thousand five hundred men had been received into die line from the Army of Reserve; the ordinary recruiting in the same period had produced 6,791 men. The gross amount of recruits for the line was, therefore 14,291 men. This was enough to remove the impression that the recruiting of the line was confined to the army of reserve. The recruiting, compared with any former period, would be found not deficient. Last year, there was no recruiting for the militia, none for the army of reserve, and all the disbanded men and Scotch fencibles were open,
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Dr. Laurence
was not satisfied with this comparison, because it did not take exclusively the months of August, Sept. Oct. and Nov. in each of the years compared; because those were the months in which the Army of Reset be Bill was ballotted for, and when of coarse the high bounties for substitutes to serve in it operated.
The Attorney General
said, he should not make many observations on the speech of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), although he should certainly make some. He did not mean to cast any censure on that right hon. gent., or say thing as if any speech could be intended by him to give any advantage lo the enemy over us.—He was persuaded, that the right hon. gent was one of the last in the House, who weald use any curious expressions in argument for the sake of an advantage or for an apparent advantage in debate. He was persuaded, that the right hon. gent, did not wish to give our enemies any such, or any other advantage what ever; but he had frequently had occasion to feel, that the views which the right hon. gent had of things that came under his consideration, and the consequent manner in which he expressed himself, had, although not so intended by him a tendency to the great disadvantage of the country; for what he thought most useful, what he so thought, or he would not say it, the Attorney-General thought, in many instances, most disadvantageous to the country. If the question, now before the House, was a new question whether we should or should not, adopt a mode of defence by volunteer corps, there were hardly any limits of criticism, to which we should wish to stop the right hon. gent from entering 3 but when the volunteer system had been adopted to such an extent as it hid been, so that it must be in vain for any man to hope, that any observations could induce the House to abandon the system; then it did seem to him to be not a very useful practice to dwell upon the de facts of such a system, but on the contrary, it appeared to him, that some mischief might result such a practice. If the volunteers were not such a force as the House could desire which he did not say was their description, but if, for the sake of argument, they were so allowed to be, could this sort of language respecting them be useful? On the contrary, he would ask, if is was not most
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Mr. Windham
denied that he had meant an armed democracy, to the extent alleged,
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The Secretary
at war, said that in answer to a fact, which had been stated by a learned gentleman, that the operation of the army of reserve had injured recruiting for the regular service during the months it operated, he had to state, that upon a comparative view of the months from July to November, the recruiting for the regular army had been greater than in she year 1802, notwithstanding all the advantages of that year by the recruiting service having the monopoly of it then, and also that the two militia and Scotch fencibles had been discharged, and in the present year the army of reserve had so operated.
The question was then put and carried, and all the resolutions of the Committee were read and agreed to.
[VOLUNTEER EXEMPTION BILL.]—
On the motion for the second reading of the Volunteer exemption Bill,
Dr. Laurence
said that some misapprehension existed about the exemptions with respect to the volunteers who had not been accepted before the 23d of July. They were told originally they could not have the exemptions, and they gave their services without expecting them. But now, as the exemptions were given to others in their situation, it was fair they should have the option.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said, that all volunteer corps, whose services had been accepted, at whatsoever time, and who conformed to provisions prescribed, were entitled to the exemptions, except those who expressly declared them in their offers.
The bill was read a second time, and committed for Monday.
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, December 13.1803
[MIKUTES.]—
The East India Bond Bill, the Seaman's Desertion Bill, and others, were read a third time and passed.—The Expiring Laws Bill, the Sugar Drawback Bill, &c. &c. were committed and reported.
[BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]—
Upon the motion for the third reading of the Bank Restriction Bill,
Lord Grenville
said, he had already expressed his surprise at this Bill having been read a second time, without notice, the day after it came up to that House. He thought, that on the whole, it was best at the present moment to continue the Bank Restriction; but this was not a step to be taken with indifference, or to be forwarded as a ma Her of course through its various stages; it was, on the contrary, a great evil; necessary, perhaps, in such a crisis as the present, but well worthy of the most serious attention of Parliament. It had been first proposed as a measure merely temporary, to meet a momentary but very alarming danger; as such it had, he thought, been highly beneficial. But it had been attended with the mischief inseparable from all measures of the same description. The fundamental principle of all governments on this subject ought to be, that credit and circulation, if undisturbed by legislative interference, will invariably find their own level. Whenever any temporary purpose (as must sometimes happen) induces a departure from this principle, the misfortune is, that the first deviation too commonly leads to the necessity of a second, and so necessarily, until it becomes almost impossible to tread back the same steps, or to revert to the only wise system of policy on the subject. So it happened in this case. The measure adopted in the first instance to meet a momentary purpose had afterwards been prolonged (perhaps unavoidably) till the conclusion of that war; and even now, though he lamented the effects of that prolongation, he hardly ventured to decide that the opinion of Parliament had in that instance been wrong. Next came the peace, so very like war, that its authors themselves had been afraid to depart from the war system; nor had he himself then opposed its renewal, convinced as he was, that the pretended state of peace was a real state of war in every thing, except in the power of providing for self-defence, and for the protection of our own interest. To venture such a step in the present moment, at least with-
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even during the existence of actual invasion,
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all;
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Lord Hawkesbury
then rose, and spoke nearly as follows:—I rise, my lords, to offer some remarks in reply to what has fallen from the noble lord who has just sat down. In some of the general principles which he has stated, I most certainly cannot but agree with him, though I cannot concur in his application of them, in the present instance. And, indeed, in listening to some parts of his lordship's speech, it was difficult for me to recognize the words of one who had so great a shire in proposing this measure originally. That the proportion of paper in circulation to the amount of the specie ought to be left to find its own natural level, and that, except in some particular situations, it will, when left to itself, find its natural level, is a principal in political economy, that no one can be hardy enough in the present day to controvert. I agree, therefore, that legislative interference, or any sort of interference, ought, if possible, to be avoided; but at the same time circumstances may occur, and his lordship has admitted that this may be the case, when the good to be derived from such a measure far overbalances the evils that may be consequent upon it. When this bill was originally brought into Parliament, there were a few who were not at all convinced of the necessity of it; these, however, were but very few. Others were a ware of its magnitude and importance, yet still thought that, under the then circumstance, of menaced invasion, very like our present situation, a run upon the bank, in consequence of the alarm, might be attended with the most pernicious consequences, and therefore joined in giving their vote for the proposed restriction. I also had turned my attention to the subject, and I will fairly own that the difficulties with which it was surrounded pressed heavily on my mind, and one of the chief of these was, that a precedent might thus be established, which could in its consequences be attended with no be-
312
313
314
Lord King
said, that notwithstanding his objections to the present measure, and the general reasoning by which it was supported, he had been much gratified by severed par s of the noble Secretary's speech. He had heard, with very great pleasure, the noble lord's distinct admission, that the principle of the bill was radically vicious, his declared repugnance to all legislative interference on subjects of this nature, and Its avowal that such measures could be justified only by the most urgent necessity. Such public admissions, from the persons who proposed these measures, were highly important at all times, but more particularly at present; when, from their frequent repeti-
315
boarding.
incivism,
Louis d'ors,
316
317
318
The Marquis of Sligo
rose, as he said, to confirm Lord King's account of the badness of the silver coinage in Ireland. He however denied that any transaction of the nature alluded to by his lordship, had ever fallen under his observation, or was consistent with his knowledge.
The Duke of Norfolk
did not mean at present to oppose the bill, but lie remarked that it was too much the custom of the last administration to propose and carry dangerous measures, and afterwards act upon them as precedents. This now had become a precedent, and he was sorry that, as it had been once enacted, this was not a time to repeal it. Government ought to be aware how it passed measures of this magnitude at the desire of persons, by whose means they might become independant of Parliament. If ministers would, whenever the Bank directors pleased, come to Parliament are obtain a law to protect those directors against the legal demands of their creditors, it might be feared, that in return those directors might, at some time or other, give ministers such aid as would enable them to dispense, for a time at least, with the concurrence of Parliament.
Lord Grenville
rose to explain some misstatements of his positions by the noble Secretary of State. Particularly, he observed, he had been completely misunderstood in the plan which he suggested for giving greater security to private piper. He did not at all mean that government security v. as to be given to individuals as in 1793. His plan was this, that as the individuals of the nation were concerned in the capital of the whole nation, a general plan should be entered upon, under the countenance of Parliament, to support the credit of: any particular private bank, whose paper should be effected by a landing of the enemy, or any other alarm in the place where it was situated.
Lord Hawkesbury
denied, in the most positive terms, that the bill was introduced at the request, or even at the suggestion of the Bank directors; but that government had brought forward the measure solely from
319
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, December 13.1803
[MINUTES.]—
Sir Francis Burdett
moved the second reading of the Pancras Vestry and Overseers' Bill; which was read a second time, and referred to a Select Committee.—Mr. Byng brought up a petition from certain inhabitants of the parish of Pancras against the bill; which was referred to the Committee on the bill, and the petitioners ordered to be heard by themselves, their council or agents, against the bill, &c.—Lord Henry Petty moved that the report of the Committee on the petition of the Sierra Leona company of the year 18or,be referred to the Committee appointed to consider their petition presented in the present session. Ordered.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the Mutiny Bill; which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time tomorrow.—Mr. Johnson presented at the bar, from the office of the chief Secretary for Ireland, an account of the amount of Bank of Ireland notes in circulation at the different periods mentioned in the order of the House. Ordered to be on the table, and to be printed.—Mr. Hobhouse brought up the report of the Committee of supply or yesterday. The resolutions were severally agreed to.—A message from the Lords informed the House, that their lordships had agreed to the following bills without any amendment, viz. the Malt Tax, the 5,000,000 Exchequer Bills, the Pension Duty, the Qualification Indemnity, the Irish Promissory Note, the East-India Bonds, the Irish Sugar Drawback, and the Seamens' Desertion Bills.—Admiral Berkeley brought up a petition from the debtors confined in Gloucester Castle. Ordered to lie on the table; as was also a petition from the debtors in the King's-Bench,—Sir William Elford gave notice, that, after the recess, he should bring forward a motion, to institute an inquiry into the cause of the dismissal of a very respectable individual from office, by the commissioners of naval inquiry.—Mr. Secretary Yorke brought up an account of the numbers of the volunteer corps, on the establishment, in Ireland, and of the number of corps that had been accepted by his Majesty. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.
[VOLUNTEERS' EXEMPTION BILL.]—
The House having resolved itself into a com-
320
Mr. Secretary Yorke
observed, that it would not be necessary for him to take up the time of the Committee, by going at large into the exposition of the bill before it, which he had fully explained on Saturday. The object he had now in view was merely to explain the points which it had been found necessary to introduce into it, in order to remove some doubts which existed respecting the former acts. Doubts had been entertained respecting the exemptions which volunteers claimed, and in many instances the commandants of corps had omitted, from their not being acquainted with the provisions of former acts, to make the returns before the day specified in those acts, namely, the 21st of September, on or before which the return should have been made to entitle the individual to exemption. There could be no question as to the Reserve, because three periods of the year were specified for making the returns, and if they should not be made before the 21st of September, they might in January. This first clause, therefore, was intended to enable commandants of corps to make returns at any time after the passing of the act, to make returns, and to legalize such as had keen made since the 21st of September, each of which was to exempt the individual from the ballot for the militia, as well as for the reserve. This clause was also to enable commandants of corps to make special returns, where the individuals had conformed to the provisions of the act. It had, in many instances, been found utterly impossible to issue the quantity of arms necessary for the use of the volunteers, and as the terms of the act required that the returns should be made of men fully armed, equipped, and accoutred, the commandants had a difficulty of making the returns where the arms had not been issued. But if the individuals had attended with pikes for the purpose they would, in his opinion, be entitled to be returned as properly armed. In every instance also, where the quantity of arms proposed under the act, to be issued by government, which was one quarter of the number in the inland counties, and one half in the maritime, bad been delivered, be considered the members of the corps as entitled to the return, if they attended the regular number of days at exercise. The second clause, therefore, would authorise the colonels of corps to make such special returns, where the members had attended the full number of days at drill, muster, and exercise, for the purpose of being
321
Mr. Pitt
said, as 'far as he could collect the provisions of the bill, it was calculated to attain the desired object. Upon one part of what was stated by the right hon. gent, he could not help animadverting. The right hon. gent, seemed to suppose, that though a corps might be armed with pikes, the commander might have returned them properly armed and equipped; he (Mr. Pitt) thought, on the contrary, that if a corps had been raised, and accepted as a corps of regular infantry, that the only proper arms for such a corps were muskets, and that if they were armed with pikes or pitchforks, or any other weapon, that the commander could not return them as properly armed and equipped. With respect to another point, he could not conceive bow it was possible, that a commander could return his corps as effective where there might be only arms delivered in the proportion of 25 to 100 men, and he had received a letter upon this subject from the Secretary of State, expressly slating, that no corps could be returned as effective, unless the men had had the opportunity of learning the use of arms, which prevented many commanders from returning their corps as effective, where they had
322
Mr. Rose
said, he held in his hand a certificate which he had given of the corps which he commanded, stating, that they were perfect in all the manoeuvres of light infantry, and that they had attended muster and exercise three times the number of days required, with what arms they could procure, none having been furnished them by government. This certificate was returned by the lord lieut. as insufficient to enable them to exemption under the act, who referred to a letter from the Sec. of State as his authority. The gentlemen of the county, however, construed the act more liberally, and took care that the corps should be exempted. As to the description of arms which had been alluded to, it would never be said that riflemen were to be armed with pikes.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
observed, that if government thought it necessary to alter the mode of arming the volunteer corps, and to furnish, for instance, the front rank with muskets, and the rear rank with pikes, he could not perceive that there could be any hesitation in the commanders of these corps in returning them properly armed and equipped. As to the case of a fourth part only of the requisite number of arms being furnished to any corps, he conceived that if such corps had the opportunity, in the course of twenty-four days, of learning the use of arms, that they might have been returned as effective. As to the certificate mentioned by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose), it was insufficient, because it was not in conformity with the act of Parliament.
Mr. Pitt
said, he did not wish to prolong the discussion, as the bill went to do away the doubts which had arisen. With respect, however, to what had been said, that any arms might be given to a corps, his objection was, that if a corps of infantry was accepted as such, without any explanation as to the mode of arming, that it must be considered that such a corps was to bearmed in the regular way with muskets, and that it could not be otherwise denominated "properly armed and equipped."
Sir William Young
thought that some distinction ought to be made with respect to
323
The Attorney General
observed, that it there were any case in which the lord lieut. of any county adopted a mode by which some individuals would be released, and the burthen of a ballot would be flung upon others, it was one that was not authorized either by the legislature or the government of the country. Particular cases might admit of some partial modification; but these could only extend to things which were not in themselves of material import. What he understood by persons being duly armed was that their service should have been tendered to and accepted of by government, and that arms should have been delivered to them in consequence. As to the strict meaning of a soldier being duty armed, that was a question more for a soldier than a lawyer to determine. According as he conceived the meaning of the law, it was requisite that, to obtain exemption from the militia service, a man should have been disciplined in the use of arms on rive distinct or separate days at least, and to gain an exclusion from the ballot under the army of reserve act, it was necessary that he should be at least twenty-four days in training to military exercise; that is, that a man should be drilled for such a number of times on so many separate days without specifying any particular number of hours in each day, or supposing by any means that ho was to be kept the entire of each day at exercise. Government, it appeared to him, would have a right to exercise their own discretion as to the number or the particular species of arms which they should issue.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
explained, that, with respect to the issuing of pikes, it had been originally considered as a sort of temporary
324
Dr. Laurence
stated that he differed materially from the right hon. and learned gent. who spoke last but one (the Attorney General), and that that rt. hon. gent, also differed materially from himself on a former occasion, when stating his opinion on the subject which was now under discussion. Pikes were said to have been originally brought into use only as a temporary sort of armament, till others were procured j therefore any deviation from that must be irregular. As to the other case, namely, where 25 stand of arms only were issued for 100 men, the commandant would then by law, that is, if he acted according to the strict construction of the act, be under the necessity of giving a certificate of service to every individual according as each completed the number of drill days which was required before he could obtain an exemption. From the hurry with which acts of Parliament were frequently drawn up, inaccuracies must unavoidably occur sometimes in the manner in which they were framed; but it would be a dangerous principle to admit that, on account of the necessity which existed for their alteration, the laws could be dispensed with on any account whatever; and in each of the cases to which he had alluded the law should have been more strictly adhered to.
Lord Granville Leveson Gower
stated that, in the county of Stafford, three weeks ago, not a single firelock had been received from government for the volunteer corps.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
stated, that orders had been given to provide arms for the volunteer corps, but it was thought necessary to furnish them in the maritime, counties first.
Mr. Tierney
thought a distinction ought to be taken upon the subject of arms. When corps made their offers of service, they generally stated what they would provide themselves, and what they expected government to furnish. A corps that he was connected with had stated that they would provide themselves with clothing and other articles, and that they expected government to furnish arms and ammunition. By arms was certainly meant muskets, but if government thought proper to send arms of a different description, for instance, pikes, he should conceive that such a corps would be properly armed. As to the case of only a certain proportion of arms being furnished to a corps, he apprehended that supposing only 25 muskets to be furnished to l00 men, each man
325
Dr. Laurence
contended, that there was no analogy in the case cited by the hon. gent. As to pikes, they could not, he said, be considered as proper arms in the cases mentioned.—Upon that part of the bill which related to the number of days of attendance,
Mr. Rose
observed, that there were some volunteers who were paid for 85 days, and ethers only for 24; he thought it, therefore, not just that the former should only be required to attend 24 days for the purpose of being exempted. He wished also that something should be done to enforce discipline; he had heard of some irregularities committed, and he thought they ought to be checked.
Mr. Secretary
Yorke said, that as the law now stood, volunteers were equally exempted in complying with the act by attending twenty-four days. As to enforcing discipline, his majesty had the power of making regulations for that purpose, and it was, perhaps, unnecessary to pass another act upon the subject, as it was highly desirable that too many regulations might not be made. There was a great improvement in the present system over that of last war, as the volunteers were now liable to be called out to meet the enemy, which they then were not.
Mr. Rose
again contended, that these volunteers, who were paid for 85 days, ought not to be allowed an exemption for attending 24. He was well aware, he said, that his Majesty had the power of making regulations with respect to the discipline of the volunteer corps, but his Majesty had not the power of imposing fines for irregularity of conduct.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said, that volunteers would only be paid for the number of days they actually attended 5 and as to irregularity, any person misconducting himself might be expelled with disgrace from the corps to which he belonged, in which case he would be entitled to no exemption.
Mr. Giles
said, that the bill now before the Committee went to alter the number of effective men. At present, every man who appeared, properly armed and accoutred, five days, was entitled to exemption from the militia; and if he appeared for 24 days, properly armed and accoutred, he was en-
326
327
Mr. Secretary York
said, be could not see the clause now in discussion in the light in which the learned gent viewed it: he did not see how it could be considered as a breach of faith. This was a remedial bill, to exempt volunteer corps from certain hardships to which they were at present exposed tinder the strict letter of the Jaw. It was not intended by it to do any thing unfavourable to the volunteers. This clause was prospective it was not intended to take place until after the 1st day of May next. But with regard to the exemption of volunteers, it was to take place immediately. The other part would in truth be as if Parliament never made any alteration in the law respecting these volunteers, and the learned gent, insisted en it, that Parliament had no right to make any alteration in the law in this respect; that he would never admit. The fact was, that it would be in the power of those volunteers to dissolve, who should not like this new regulation; they might quit the service if they did not approve of it, and did not choose to continue; the only consequence would then be, that they would have no exemption, but would be subject to be ballotted for the militia, or the army of reserve, and the deficiency which might thus be created in the corps must be filled up out of the classes specified in the defence act: but the alteration proposed, he apprehended, would not have the desired effect, for the number of days of attendance being limited to five, was applicable to a time of peace, whereas the measure must now be adapted to a rime of war.
Sir William Young
considered the volunteers as divided into two classes. Those? which came under the regulations of the 42d of the King, and those under the act of the 43d of the King. The first he considered as volunteers superior, in consideration of their offers, to the second; for the first came forward without any view, expectation, hope, or idea of any exemption whatever. The second, although he did not mean to dispute their spirit, zeal, or patriotism, yet they came forward-volunteers under the idea of a commutation of duty—to be exempt from other military duties that would have been imposed upon them by law, the Army of
328
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought the hon. baronet alluded particularly to the volunteers of the county of Buckingham, who had acted much to their credit, in coming forward as they did without claiming any exemption; but he could not allow of any distinction between the volunteers of this county, either as to those who entered previous to the war or subsequent to the war. Distinctions between men actuated by such noble motives were invidious. It should not be insinuated, that all the volunteers did not enter from one motive—the glorious one of defending their country, and to preserve its honour. He did therefore beg leave to vindicate the volunteers who entered since this war, as well as those who were in that character before it. Their having become volunteers was purely voluntary; they had no conception of what they are now emitted to by the Act of Parliament; it was impossible they should, for the great bulk of them had enteied before that clause in the act had been so much as mentioned, or even hinted at. It was no> motive of commutation of duty OF exemption that induced the volunteers to come forward: no it was a spontaneous burst of genuine zeal in their country's, cause, unmixed with any thing selfish, uncontaminated with any thing impure; it was a glowing spirit of patriotism, that made them rush forward in the service (c)f their country. This was-nothing more than was? due to them from him as a member of administration, and, unless he was much received, would be paid to them by that country which they were enrolled to serve. Having paid this small and well-deserved tribute to the volunteers, he could not help saying he concurred entirely in the sentiments expressed by the learned gent. (Mr. Giles) on the other side of the House. He was confident that no man in the House, or in the country, would be-less disposed to countenance a breach of good faith in any case than his right hon. friend (Mr. Yorke.) The truth was, that in this ease he did not depart from good faith, for although five days were sufficient to entitle? volunteers to exemption from the militia, and 24 from the army of reserve, yet that was the regulation in time of peace, and he proposed that the attendance should be greater now in time of war. It was not proposed, however, that 6be alteration should begin to operate until the month of May
329
Mr. Rose
said, that the learned gent. (Mr. Giles) referred in so particular a manner to what he had said, that he was under the necessity of saying a few words in his own vindication. The learned gent, had imputed to him a mischievous speech now, said Mr. Rose, whether my speech or the speech of the learned gent, was most likely to produce mischief, I leave to the Committee to determine; and I trust I may leave that matter safely there. He seemed to insinuate that my speech was against the volunteers. There is not one man in this country more a friend from his heart to the volunteers of it than myself. There is no spot near or in the neighbourhood of my house in which there dwells one man who is not a volunteer. Two corps in my neighbourhood are commanded by relations of my own, and a third corps is raised by myself:—I therefore leave it, on these facts, to the Committee to judge whether I am against the volunteer system. "What I meant was to have them as perfect in their discipline, so as to render them as efficient as possible, not through the medium of a breach of good faith, for that I am as much an enemy to as the learned gent and upon that subject the right hon. gent, has removed every shadow of difficulty, by saying, that if the alteration should take place, such volunteers who disapprove of it shall be at liberty to withdraw. Having quoted the provision of the statute of the last session of Parliament upon this subject, the right hon. gent, concluded with-saying, that both as a member of Parliament, slid as a magistrate and country gent, and in every situation, he had been a friend and zealous supporter of
330
Mr. Giles
disclaimed all idea of imputing to the right hon. gent, any intention of creating mischief by his speech, but he did think that it would have that tendency but for the explanation which followed. He was glad he had started this conversation, because it had produced a declaration that would do away any uneasiness which the volunteers might have felt on the subject of alteration in the terms of their continuance as a body, but now it was openly declared that no alteration could ever take place by the terms on which they entered, without affording them the option to withdraw if they disapproved of such alterations, losing, of course, by so doing, all the exemptions they are now entitled to. Such a declaration was necessary to be made, for it set at rest much uneasiness that might have followed.
The Attorney-General
observed, that so much had been said on the matter of exemption of volunteers, it was needless for him to add any thing, especially as upon that subject there was no difference of opinion. Now, as that was the leading and the only part of this bill that was pressing in point of time, he should submit to his right hon. friend, whether the remaining part of the bill might not as well be deferred until after the recess, to allow gentlemen time to turn it in their minds, and to prepare for its future discussion, for it was not proposed that that part of the bill should begin to operate until the month of May next. If any thing that amounted to a breach of good faith could possibly be proposed, which he was assured there could not, by any member of administration, he was sure the House would never assent to it, but perhaps there was no use in dwelling on this measure further now, if his right hon. friend would adopt his suggestion, in postponing the latter part of the bill.
General Norton
said, it was a fact, that the last Volunteer Act clashed with the army of reserve. If that act had not passed, the 50,000 men would have been long since completed.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
in further reply to Sir W. Young, begged leave most completely to differ from the right hon. baronet, as he was thoroughly convinced that the volunteers, instead of taking any advantage of their situation, were, upon all occasions, actuated by the purest and noblest motives of loyalty, patriotism, and public spirit; they were a body of men whose valour and
331
Sir W. Wynne
said a few words on the danger of giving the volunteers the option of withdrawing their services.
Mr. Pattison
said, that in the last war he. had a corps of 150 men. On calling them together in April last, when he got permission to raise a second corps of 350 men, he found that 30 of them had entered into the King's service. Since that, several had gone in the same manner, either into his Majesty's service, or as substitutes into the militia, the supplementary militia, or the army of reserve; and though be might have some regret at losing a good soldier, he never thought himself at liberty to interfere to detain them. This was a proof that the volunteer system, instead of impeding, assisted the recruiting service: so far as to the men, now how was the fact as to the officers? This touched him more nearly, as it affected his own family. His eldest son, who had been one of his officers, had gone into the East Norfolk militia; his second son, whom he was educating with the greatest care, to assist him in his commercial pursuits, had conceived so strong a partiality for a military life, and for the King's service, that he held himself under the necessity of yielding to it. He was one of his ensigns, and had never conceived any notion of a military life, till the corps had been ordered to Yarmouth; and new he had written to him in a most pressing manner to obtain him a commission in the Kind's service, and he would be much obliged to the hon. Secretary if he would procure him one.
Colonel Cranfurd
said, it was true a private may be turned out of his corps for impertinence to his officers; if he was to be turned out by his officer, the case was clear; but if it were to be done by the Committee, it should be recollected, that the majority of that committee would be privates.
Mr. Yorke
thought it would be a very difficult matter indeed to define the precise quantum of assistance to be given to the wives and families of such volunteers as were sent on actual service, as that must depend on a variety of circumstances; it must be first ascertained who stood in need of any assistance at all; then, whether those families, who sought assistance, were wholly dependent on the professional exertions or manual labour of those persons sent on actual ser-
332
ad infinitum,
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, December 14, 1803.
[MINUTES]—
Counsel was heard at some length in an appeal cause, Keighley,
v.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, December 14, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—
A message from the lords informed the house, that their lordships had agreed to the English Bank Restriction Bill, the bills for suspending the Habeas Corpus Act, and authorising trials by martial law in Ireland, the English Promissory Note Bill, the bill for preventing distillation from oats in Ireland, the bill for bonding Portugal wines, the Irish Crop Exportation Bill, the Sugar Drawback Bill, and. the Curates' Relief Bill.—On the motion of Mr. Hobhouse, the Mutiny Bill was read a second lime, and committed for Thursday, the 2d of Feb.—-On the motion of Mr. Corry, the house went
333
[ARMY OF RESERVE.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke
thought it right, before gentlemen separated for the recess, to put the House in possession of an accurate return of the; Army of Reserve, the number raised, the number rejected, those that had deserted, those that died, those that were effective, and those deficient.—In making this statement there would be room to admire the exertions the counties had made, though of late those exertions had rather fallen off. The exertion was at first so great, that within six weeks no less a number than 26,740 men were raised. The total number raised on the 21st Nov. the latest day to which the returns were made up, was 26,607 in England and Wales. Of these 642 had been rejected, 70 were dead, 777 had deserted, 25,500 were effective, and a deficiency of 8,000 still remained to be made up by England and Wales. In Scotland the number raised was 5,500. In Ireland it was upwards of 6,000. Still a considerable deficiency remained; yet putting it out of the question, whether this was the best mode of raising a defensive force, it must be allowed that it had supplied in a very short time a great number of men. This return, therefore, was thought useful, in order to stimulate the counties to complete their numbers; and he should move, that by the time the House should meet again, another return should be made, by which it would be seen in what proportion the quotas of the different counties were complete or imperfect. He concluded with moving, that there be laid before the House an account of the number of men raised for
334
[VOLUNTEER EXEMPTION BILL.]—
On the order of the day being read, that this bill be read a third time,
Mr. Windham
said, he was much grieved, that by not being present in the House the night before, he had lost the opportunity of offering some suggestions, which would, he conceived, materially have improved the bill. He did not expect that the Report would have been brought up before this day, and as it was competent to offer any improvements that occurred, upon the report, he had been, less anxious to attend in his place yesterday. It was true, that Reports were, in cases of urgency, immediately received: but this was not a case of urgency; and the present ministers ought to have known more than any other men the propriety of leaving every measure before the House for as long a time as possible. The very bill which they now pressed forward so unnecessarily, arose from, that hasty spirit of legislation which left in every act doubts and ambiguities requiring further acts to remove them. The hon. gentlemen seemed particularly prone to this course of proceeding. They were fond of driving to an inch, of running every thing to the last moment. The consequence was, as it necessarily must be, that being obliged to act in a hurry, whatever they did was crude, ill considered, and full of mistakes. There were two modes, Dr. Johnson had observed, of composition; one in which the several parts received from the writer, before they issued from his mind, all the perfection which he hoped to give to them; the other, in which they were committed to paper in the first instance to be improved by subsequent correction. The hon. gentlemen, by the circumstances in which they placed themselves so constantly, seemed to prefer the latter of these modes. They threw down their first loose thoughts in an act of Parliament, trusting to future consideration and experience to bring them to something of a better shape. An act of Parliament wa3 their foul copy, in which it did not signify how many faults there were, as the Legislature would be able afterwards to set them right. Their preference to this mode was founded, he supposed, upon the observation of the poet, that poets
Lost half the praise they should have got,
Were it but known, what they discreetly blot.
335
336
per
337
per
nothing
of
de minimis non curat lex.
338
stimulus
Mr. Hiley Addington.
—sir the right hon. gent who just sat down seems very desirous of having the last word on the subject new
339
l
340
Mr. Windham,
in explanation, observed, that he had never said that 400,000 men in arms would be of no use.
Mr. Alderman Pries,
in order to set the
341
Mr. Secretary Yorke
had not inquired into the reason of the omission alluded to by the worthy alderman; but he supposed it was because the corps mentioned by him were not understood to be of the description to which the return was to apply. Probably they were understood to belong to the Admiralty.
Colonel Craufurd
complained that his right hon. friend below (Mr. Windham) had been grossly misrepresented. He did not think that 4OO,000 men could be of no advantage to the country. On the contrary both he and his honourable friend gave the volunteers the highest credit? they only complained of the manner in which they were constituted, and that they had a tendency to starve the regular forces. He expressed his regret that any exemptions had ever been granted. He believed it had been by accidence. It was doubtful whether it was intended, even by ministers themselves, to give these exemptions: for, so late as the 23d of Sept. they had consulted his Majesty's Attorney-General whether they were to be given. If he had himself understood that they were to be given, he would have came down prepared to oppose them. As to the volunteers in general, he was of
342
343
Sir William Young
stated, that he was particularly anxious, as this would most likely be the last time he should have an opportunity, of declaring that there were two descriptions of volunteers, and that the exemptions adopted in regard to those two descriptions ought to be extremely different. This was a point, he thought, essential to the interest of the country. A strong line of demarcation ought to be made. He had looked into the acts of Parliament on the subject of the volunteer exemptions, and he found that he was borne out in what he then asserted, that the volunteers under the 42d of the King, were of a different class in the eye of the legislature from the present volunteers, who bad no regulation but that of the 43d of the King. The latter were a very large body of men, by whose exemption the great mass of the population of the country was greatly affected; they impeded very much indeed the progress of the army of reserve, for three-fourths of them were of the first class of the Defence Act, unmarried mm under the age of thirty: this was a serious matter: they ought not to have these exemptions, for it was greatly inconvenient to the country. As to the volunteers under the 42d of the King, who were the only tree volunteers, in the proper
344
345
Colonel Calcraft,
in answer to what had fallen from the worthy Alderman (Price), thought that the facility of recruiting in provincial districts, as compared with the difficulty staled to exist in London, did not arise from the cause stated by (he worthy alderman, namely, the giving of higher bounties in the former than in the latter, but from the circumstance of a vast number or working artisans being dismissed from their employment at. Birmingham, Sheffield, Manchester, and various other manufacturing towns, as the returns from those towns would prove. These men, when they were unemployed, and saw no chance of being reinstated, immediately formed the idea of enlisting in the line or militia; and instead of going from town to town to look for higher bounties, repaired to the next town where they could be received; and this would account for the difference of facility in raising recruits in the country. With respect to the volunteers themselves, as lie had not had an opportunity of speaking his sentiments, he wished to say a few words. It had been pretty much the fashion to charge a right hon. gent, near him (Mr. Windham) with disparaging those corps, as utterly useless and unfit for service. He, for one, never conceived the arguments of that right hen. gent, in that view, but merely as meaning that his Majesty's ministers did not use the military population of the country in the way which he thought most efficient. For his own part, however, he felt no disposition to undervalue the services of the volunteers; on the contrary, he thought they would be rendered highly serviceable and efficient for the defence of the country. As to discipline, however, as compared with troops of the line, or established militia, that was out of the question. The nature of the service, and the opportunities that had occurred for training the volunteers, admitted of no comparison with the other troops, In aid of those troops, however, he thought they would form an important branch of the pub-
346
Mr. Secretary Yorke
suggested to the hon. baronet (Sir W. Young) who spoke last but one, to read and consider the act of the 42
d
Mr. Giles
wished to know, whether the proportion of the army of reserve, which London was to furnish, was yet complete?
Mr Secretary Yorke
stated, that there was a deficiency in the city quota, as well as in that of Middlesex; but that such deficiencies arose, not from the tardiness of those with whom the duty of providing the men rested, but from the frequency of desertion, which took place to a greater extent in this city than in any other district; and this be conceived it impossible to prevent. It arose from the nature of our police, any change in which, however, he could never persuade himself to propose or to meditate.
Mr. Giles
argued, that from the reading of the Volunteer Act, the distinction taken by the hon. baronet (Sir W. Young) was
347
Sir William Young
said, that his meaning was misconceived by the hon. member who spoke last.
Dr. Laurence
rose, and, in a speech of considerable length, took a general view, as well of the volunteer system, as of the conduct of his Majesty's ministers, in adopting that system, going over nearly the same ground which had been traced, both on this and on former nights, by Mr. "Windham, and by the learned doctor himself. It. had been the fashion, he said, for his Majesty's ministers and their supporters, to endeavour to calumniate, and run down the characters of those men who have the honesty and the boldness to deliver their candid sentiments in that House, in opposition to the measures of ministers, which, they conceived to be impolitic; regardless of that temporary popularity which ministers were so anxious to obtain from gratifying the whim of the moment without looking to future results. Of this illiberal disposition too many instances had been given with respect to the conduct of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), the purity of whose motives no man could question, and the ability of whose; mind even his adversaries were forced to; acknowledge; but yet he was the subject of much undeserved censure, and extremely culpable misrepresentation. The latter, some persons out of doors seemed encouraged to promote; and the effect of that
348
349
350
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
began by saying, that the learned member had concluded with a very heavy charge, indeed upon his Majesty's ministers, namely, that they had deserted their duties and had given encouragement to a spirit of culumny; but, to whom the charge of dealing in groundless slander and detraction most properly applied, he would leave it to the House and the public to judge. of the duty of a member of Parliament be was fully aware; and no man re peeled that duty more than he did. He. knew that, consistently with that duty, every member of that House was bound to examine, and entitled to state fully, his opinion upon every public measure. He should be sorry to see that disposition damped by any fear of animadversion, or that the exercise of such an important right should become the subject of calumny. He admitted fully that a statesman should prefer the interests of the people to every other consideration, and that unpopularity should not restrain him from pursuing the course of measures which his judgment prescribed, For popularity, properly understood, he professed the highest respect, and should always feel a proper sollicitude; but, that ministers had ever betrayed any idle, vain wish for popularity in the system they had acted upon, as had been insinuated, he most pointedly denied. To what part of their conduct could the charge of endeavouring to court the people, be applied? Was it to be detected in their financial arrangements? Wash in the quantity of taxes they had imposed en the country? It would be recollected, on this point, that immediately after the conclusion of the last peace, an addition was made to that public taxes, which was equal to half the amount of the whole interest on the national debt, previous to the war which that peace terminated, and at the commencement of the present war, a further addition was made of twelve millions. From this it appeared that no less than millions were added to the taxation of the country within the short space of 14 months. That is, not less than seven millions more than the whole interest of the national debt previous to the commencement of the last war. The financial proceedings, therefore, of ministers could not be said to manifest any very strong disposition to conciliate popular favour; and could that disposition be
351
352
353
Mr. Windham
denied that he ever meant to disparage the volunteers; and said that his remarks upon the reduction of the army previous to the commencement of the war, referred to the disbanding of the foreign corps in our service, which was a proceeding that he would ever condemn.—After a few other remarks from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the bill was read a third time and passed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, December 15, 1803
[MINUTES.]—
The royal assent was given, by commission, to the Malt Tax Bill, the Place and Pension Duty, the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension, the Irish Martial Law, the Seamen's Desertion, the Bank Restriction, the British Sugar Bounty Drawback, the Irish Provision Import, the Irish Oats Distillation, the Small Notes, the East India Bonds Duty, the Annual Indemnity, the Curates' Belief, and the Portugal Wines Bonding Bills. The Lords Commissioners were, the Lord Chancellor, the Earl of Roslin, and Lord Walsingham.—After some routine and private business was disposed of, Mr. Vansittart, accompanied by several members, brought up from the House of Commons, the Volunteer Corps Regulation Bill. The bill was forthwith read a first time: and, on the motion of Lord Walsingham, ordered to be printed. His lordship took the opportunity to state, that should the prints be on the table to-morrow, it was his intention then to move for the second reading of the bill.—Adjourned till to-morrow.
354
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, December 15, 1803
[MINUTES.]—
The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod appeared at the bar of the House, and desired its attendance in the House of Peers. The Speaker, attended by several members, accordingly proceeded to the Upper House, where the royal assent was given by commission, to the Malt Duty Bill, the Pension Duly Bill, the Curates' Relief Bill, the: Irish Habeas Corpus Bill, the Irish Martial Law Bill, the East India Bonds Bill, the Irish I Sugar Drawbacks Bill, the Irish Oats Distillation Prohibition Bill, and the Portugal Wine Bonding Bill.—On their return, this Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he rose to move, that the House should, at its rising, adjourn to Monday next. Previous to the question being put, he observed, that, perhaps, it would be proper to give notice of his intention of moving, early after the meeting of the House, for the appointment of a: Committee, to inquire into the cause of he disputes between the cotton manufacturers and their servants. He should have moved for such Committee, previous to the recess, had it not been for the absence of several gentlemen, whom he wished to be present when the subject was brought forward. He also intended to move for a Committee to inquire what difference there was between, spirits distilled from malt produced from barley grown in England, and spirits ditilled from barley grown in Scotland.—The order of the day for receiving the Report of the Committee of Supply was deferred till Monday.—The Committees of Supply and Ways and Means were postponed till Monday.— Adjourned till Monday.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, December 16, 1803
[MINUTES.]—
Counsel were further heard, and at considerable length, relative to the Appeal, Keighley v. the East India Company, namely, Mr. Mansfield in continuation for the respondents. The farther hearing was postponed till Monday.—An officer from the Bank of England, presented at the bar, an account of the number, and amount of Bank Notes in circulation, on the 25th day of each month, from February till November 1803, pursuant to a motion of Lord King Ordered to lie on the table.
[VOLUNTEER EXEMPTION BILL.]—
Upon the motion of Lord Hawkesbury for the second reading of the Volunteer Exemption Bill,
The Earl of Suffolk,
in pursuance of the
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minus
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357
Lord Hobart,
who begged leave to remind the noble earl and the House, that the subject regularly under consideration was, whether a bill, to explain and amend two acts passed in the 42d and 43d year of the King, relating to volunteer corps, should be read a second time. It was in the judgment of their lordships how far a great part of what had fallen from the noble earl was relevant to such a consideration.
The Earl of Suffolk
proceeded:—he should endeavour to avoid any matter which may be considered as disorderly, as far as possible:—he continued to expatiate upon such topics as he conceived to be in some degree, connected with the subject before the House; and, adverting to the state of Ireland, he observed, that he had lately received a letter from a particular friend of his, an officer of great professional merit, and who was a district general in that part of the united king-
358
Lord Hawkesbury
rose to order. He felt It incumbent on him to interpose on such an occasion, and to advert to the obvious impropriety of suffering the communications of a general officer commanding a district, stating what his private opinions were on topics of so much delicacy and importance, to be so promulgated. Whether the communication was of a favourable or a disadvantageous nature mattered not, in his view of such a proceeding: the practice he thought was highly improper, and were it suffered to prevail, it might be recurred to in cases where the intelligence was of an opposite description. Adverting to the irregularity of what fell from the noble earl in point of order, he followed the example of his noble friend, in stating to their lordships what was; the precise question before them.
The Earl of Suffolk
again rose, and after observing that he stood corrected, proceeded to observe upon certain proceedings which. illustrated the professional abilities of his hon. friend, the general officer in question. He particularly adverted to some circumstances connected with the taking or the evaporation of Alexandria, when
The Lord Chancellor
quitted the woolsack, and deemed it incumbent on him to interpose respecting the question of order. It was with pain that he felt himself called upon so to interrupt the noble earl, a great deal of what fell from whom might, he thought, be better heard in other places.—His lordship then put the question upon the bill, when
Lord Granville
rose, and spoke nearly as follows:—It is not my intention, my lords, to take this opportunity of entering fully into the general system of regulations relating to the volunteers, and the defence of the country, which, from the nature of this I bill, might very fairly do. I mean to confine myself wholly to that particular point more immediately before the House. I shall very early after the recess take an opportunity of discussing more at large a great many points respecting the volunteer system, which I consider as a subject of the last importance. Although, my lords, my objections go in some measure to the frame of the bib, yet I do not wish to object to it altogether, as the delay which the bringing forward a new
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360
361
Lord Hobart
spoke shortly in answer to what had fallen from the noble lord. With respect to the general subject, he need scarcely obesrve, it was in the serious consideration of his majesty's government, and every practicable opportunity would be taken to ameliorate the volunteer system, and to render that part of the national force as efficacious as possible. With respect to the difficulties upon which so much stress had been laid by the noble lord, they certainly appeared to him in a very different light, and he contended that the bill before the House, as far as it applied, went to obviate them—it went to settle the important point of the exemptions. With respect to the returns, no contradictory consideration appeared to him in the mode chalked out for; those proceedings, and although the officer whose duty it was to make the returns alluded to, might possibly not be a perfect master of the provisions of the regulating acts, yet, he may easily obtain the necessary degree of information. He could by no means admit the noble lords position, that the present was such an advanced period of the session, as to render a thorough investigation of the subject impracticable. With a reference to the ensuing recess, which would cause a temporary separation of their lordships, such an observation to a certain extent, did apply, yet the session would subsequently be sufficiently long for every purpose adverted to: and he had also to observe, that the present bill, as indeed every measure of the kind should, contained a provision, authorizing its alteration or repeal in the course of the present session,
Lord Romney
observed, that he approved highly of the volunteer system, but suggested that a force of this kind, pervading the whole country, and intended to act together, ought to be put upon the same footing. As it stood at present, some were to exercise only 20 days, others 34, and so on. This might create jealousies and ill humor, which ought to be avoided. He thought also the exemptions should be granted without reference to the time of the corps being accepted; as they were by no means accepted in the order of their applications. This might arise from letters being mislaid, or some other casualty, such as usually occurs in a press of business. He concurred with his noble relation (Lord Grenville) in his opinions with respect to the regulations of many corps of volunteers, and the unmilitary manner in which they were governed. He had listened to him on that point with the greatest admiration. He also disliked
362
Lord Hobart,
in reply to the noble lord who spoke last, said, that the non-acceptance of the volunteers in the order of their applications, arose from the unexpected press of offers, which made government unwilling to act, except upon some general system.
Earl Darnley
said, that although this bill was extremely imperfect, he rejoiced that even so much was done with regard to the volunteers. The system would still require a great deal of improvement. He approved highly the idea that had been thrown out in another place, with regard to the appointment of held officers and adjutants to the different corps, which, as they were to be exempted, ought to be rendered as efficient as possible.—He alluded lo a query he had put to the noble Secretary of State, relative to the intention of his Majesty's ministers with respect to volunteer regulations previous to the recess; though these, as in the instance of the bill before the House, had fallen short of what he was convinced was necessary to be done, yet he was happy to hear it authoritatively stated, that the general subject, and which was one of die last importance, was seriously in the consideration of his Majesty's government. He perfectly a greed with every word that the noble lord (Grenville) had said, with regard to the regulations, committees, and unmilitary government of many of the volunteer corps, and thought it was necessary that this should be immediately corrected.
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that the noble earl had certainly put the query to him, which he had alluded to, but it would be in his recollection, that it referred to a general and comprehensive system of regulation, to which he had truly replied, that he knew of no intention on the part of ministers to bring forward any measures on that broad principle previous to the recess. The present was obviously a bill of an explanatory nature, and went to certain points, on which speedy legislative interference was necessary, and, in his mind, it wont fully to obviate those difficulties it professed to remove. Much had been said, and truly, of he vast importance of the subject, and the necessity of farther regulations but then the House would be aware, that it was one of an extensive and complicated, as well as of an important na-
363
The Duke of Clarence
then rose and observed, that he entirely concurred in the sentiments of the noble lord, whom he had in his eye (Grenville), with regard to the volunteers. He approved the system, but was satisfied that it required a great deal of improvement. He did not intend at present to enter freely into the question; as, after what the noble lord opposite (Hawkesbury) had said, with respect to the intentions of government, any long discussion now was totally useless. And, indeed, it must be apparent, that till the imperfections that no doubt prevailed in the system of the volunteers were ready to be corrected, the less that was said about the matter the better. He would therefore take his own advice and instantly sit down.—The question was then put: the bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow; after which their Lordships immediately adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Saturday, December 17, 1803
[MINUTES.]—
The Duke of Norfolk, agreeably to his former intimation, presented a bill for exempting Rectors, Vicars, and perpetual Curates from Arrest for Debt or Damages in any Civil Process, within the Limits of their respective Parishes, which was read a first time.—His grace then said, he was conscious that some difficulty must attend the adoption of the present measure.
364
The preamble of the bill recited several acts which he should have deemed presumption in him to refer to, being altogether unacquainted with ecclesiastical law, had he not received the assistance and advice of a gentleman eminently skilled in that subject (sir W. Scot). He was happy to think, that that Warned person entertained so favourable an opinion of the present measure, that; he himself would have introduced it before this time, h3d not the difficulties alluded to presented themselves. Such, his grace entertained sanguine hopes, might be dons I away. With this view he had introduced the bill at the present moment. He therefore moved, that it should be printed, that their lordships might have an opportunity of giving it deliberate consideration during the recess.—The bill was accordingly ordered to be printed.—The Volunteer Explanatory Bill went through a Committee. On the report being brought up; the Lord Chancellor proposed some verbal amendments, chiefly with a view to remove the objections stated by Lord Grenville on a former night, and to declare that volunteers should not, in every case, be free from ballot for the militia or army of reserve, for twelve months after the return of the commanding officer, certifying, that they had served the stipulated number of days: but that they should become liable to such ballots, the moment they actually ceased to serve in any volunteer corps.—The amendments were agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Tuesday.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, December 19, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—Counsel were heard at considerable length in continuation, relative to the Appeal from Chancery; Keighley v. the East-India Company, viz. Mr. Adam, as second counsel for the respondents. Their Lordships postponed the final hearing till to-morrow.
[VOLUNTEER EXEMPTION BILL.]—
On the question being put for the third reading of the Volunteer Exemption Bill, a conversation of some length arose, which was opened by
Earl Fitzwilliam,
who entered into the general subject in some degree of detail. In the course of his observations, his lordship made a variety of remarks upon certain provisions in the existing acts upon the subject particularly upon the 42d and 43d of his Majesty, and also upon the act of the 33d He expatiated upon the principle on which the volunteers had originally tendered their services, and the terms upon which they were accepted, and which he seemed to contrast with the system which had subse-
365
Lord Hawkesbury,
in answer to several points which had fallen from the noble earl observed, that he regretted his absence from the House for some days past, as then lie would be sensible how Hi tie ground existed for the charge of precipitation against ministers in the progress of the bill through the House; and especially his absence from the Committee on the bill last Saturday, a stage in which many of the noble earl's observations would more regularly apply. The bill was introduced into that House on Thursday, read a second time on Friday, when some discussion of the measure took place, committed on Saturday, and layover for a third reading this day. The bill before the House was merely of an explanatory nature, and very limited in its operation; it tended to do away certain practical difficulties, for which an immediate legislative interposition was obviously necessary. These principally related, as appeared by the bill, to certain points of exemption. With respect to the general subject, relative to which a great deal of what had fallen from the noble earl applied, he repeated what he had said on former occasions, that it was certainly in the serious consideration of his
366
Earl Fitzwilliam,
in explanation, supported some of the provisions he had in the first instance advanced. He did not think that magistrates were entitled to act in virtue of an opinion delivered by the law officers of the Crown He apprehended that they could only act agreeably to act of Parliament; and that where any act was inexplicable, they were not entitled to supply its I defects by the opinions of any lawyers, however respectable. If it was meant that the exemptions should extend to volunteers of every description, very few would remain subject to the ballots for the militia and army of reserve; and he thought it of importance that one mode should not be adopted in one parish and another in another. He adverted to the state of the ballots, &c. in the parts of the country where his was connected. These were, in consequence of the difficulties which occurred, in some instances delayed: and the lieutenancy felt themselves
367
Lord Grantley
said a few words of support of what fell from thy noble Secretary of State, and adverted to the necessity which existed fur the explanatory bill then under consideration.
The Lord Chancellor
argued, that nothing which fell from the noble earl militated against the passing of the bill then before the House. The greater part of what his lordship had advanced, went to points which had no connexion whatever with the bill, which I was of an explanatory and a very limited nature. He was free to confess his disapprobation, in certain points of view, of proceedings of this kind: he liked not explanatory act after explanatory act, and exposition after exposition. These considerations should be left, as far as possible, to the construction and explanation of those in whose province it was regularly to explain them: he alluded principally to his Majesty's law officers. With respect to the measure regularly under consideration, the noble, and learned lord coincided with, and enforced what had fallen from the noble Secretary of Stats.
Earl Fitzwilliam,
in additional explanation, observed, that his object was. not u> resist she progress of the bill; as far as it went, he rather approved of it; but he considered it as by no means sufficiently efficacious or extensive, and, in that view, lie thought it susceptible of amendment.
The Lord Chancellor
then put the question, and after a few words between him and the noble earl, respecting the point of order on that proceeding, the bill was read a third time, and passed; and a message was immediately sent to the Commons, acquainting them, that their lordships had agreed to the bill, with certain amendments. Their lordships then, after disposing of some routine. business, adjourned during pleasure.—After a short interval, Air. Sargent, accompanied by several members, returned the Volunteer Corps Regulation Bill from the Commons, who had agreed to their lordships' amendments.—This being notified to the House, an adjournment till to-morrow immediately took place.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, December 19, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—Colonel Barton, from the office of the Inspector General of the army of reserve, brought up the general return of the number of men raised for the
368
[IRISH IMPORT DUTIES BILL.]—
Mr. Carry
said, he rose for the purpose of giving a notice relative to the Ways and Means of Ireland. It was not usual to go into the Ways and Means of Ireland, previous to the Christmas recess, he therefore now only wished to give notice of his intention upon that subject, and the rather, because the military duties of many of the Irish members rendered it impossible for them at present to attend their duty in Parliament. The notice he now gave, related to the consolidation of the subsisting import duties, and some of the inland duties in Ireland. A schedule of those duties had been laid before Parliament last session, and was agreed to, but certain considerations, particularly a wish to give the fullest possible time to merchants for the investigation of the subject, induced the postponement of further proceedings upon it. A similar schedule would be laid before Parliament after the recess. He hoped the House would excuse him for being thus special in his notice, because he was anxious that it should be well understood in Ireland, particularly by the merchants. The duties referred to, were principally upon foreign articles, either imported directly into Ireland, or through Great-Britain; but in consequence of the stipulations in the Act of Onion, nor upon any articles, the produce of Great-Britain. The duties now payable on foreign articles were principally those under the 40th Geo. III. cap. 4, the 41st Geo. III. cap. 33, which had since been continued, and the 42d Geo. III. cap. 117. But the consolidation was not to be made strictly and precisely upon the duties as they now stood, because in all cases where there
369
ad valorem,
ad valorem
[VOLUNTEER EXEMPTION BILL.]—
A message from the Lords, informed the House, their lordships had agreed to the Volunteer Exemption Amendment Bill, with several amendments, to which they desired the concurrence of the House.—Mr. Secretary Yorke moved, that the amendments be now read.—The first amendment being accordingly read.
370
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said, that on the reading of the bill and the amendment, it would strike any one that this amendment was necessary; for the bill, as it went from the House up to the other House of Parliament, exempted persons accepted and enrolled as volunteers from serving in the militia, but had no provision on being ballotted to serve in the militia before they became volunteers, and this amendment was therefore necessary, in order that persons who had been ballotted for the militia, should be obliged to do so, if they should happen to quit their volunteer corps; that they should claim no exemption, on account of having been volunteers, but that such exemptions should continue only while they remained volunteers, for which reason he trusted the House would have no objection to the amendment.
The Speaker
observed, upon the point of order, that the usual course was to read ail the amendments over once, before any discussion took place upon them, and that the season for observation was, regularly speaking, on the question of second reading, or of agreeing to the amendments. This was the more necessary to be observed, because by it the House could see the bearing of the amendments altogether, before it entertained any discussion upon them.—The amendments were then read; they were all verbat except the first, or which the substance is already stated.—On the question for the second reading,
Mr. Windham
took an objection to the House, at present, in this matter. He said it was usual to adjoin n the consideration of all amendments made by the Lords, in any bill sent to them from the House, in order to give the members time to understand it. He did not profess to understand this amendment, thus brought down and read upon the sudden. He saw no harm in postponing the consideration of it for twenty-lour hours. He said, that an idea had gone abroad, whether true or not, he did not pretend to say, that the amendments made by the Lord's in this bill, were such as the House had not been accustomed to receive and acquiesce in. He dared to say, that was not likely to be the case upon such an occasion as this, but that was a point, however well assured, it was imposable for the House to know; for which reason, he thought this subject ought 10 stand over until to-morrow: this he pressed the: more particularly, as many gentlemen had gone away under an idea that this bill would not have been brought from the House of Lords tonight; and that if these amendments were now agreed to, these gen-
371
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said, that if he thought there was any amendment which required much consideration, lie should wish it to be deferred, to give every gentleman who wished it, an opportunity of delivering his sentiments upon u, but there really was nothing of that kind. It certainly was not difficult to understand the first amendment, as he had already stated it; and, as to all the rest, they were merely verbal. With regard to the idea of the amendments being material, and of its hiving so gene forth to the public, that was one of the inconveniences which resulted from permitting the publication of the proceedings of Parliament; under which, some persons had the audacity, in direct defiance of the standing orders of the. House, not only to misrepresent the proceedings of the two Houses of Parliament, but sometime actually to invent matter, which created great confusion in the public mind. A clause was proposed by a noble lord in the other House of Parliament, by way of amendment to the bill, which amendment was now before the House, and which went only to make up for an oversight of the House of Commons, by which it was provided, that if any volunteer should quit his corps, he should no longer be allowed to avail himself of the exemptions to which volunteers were entitled; that was all—a thing too plain for discussion.
Mr. Calcraft
professed to have no wish to procrastinate this business, but he could not help thinking it was quite necessary that this amendment should be inquired into, which could not be done unless it was postponed until to-morrow at least. he was satisfied that a much more respectable attendance in point of numbers, would have taken place in the House if it had been thought that these amendments were to have been proposed to be agreed to to-night. He knew of no reason why the House might not take this matter into consideration to-morrow. He was quite sure none had been alleged.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that all those, gentlemen who had heard the amendment and attended to the bill, who thought that it only went to supply the defect of that bill as it went from that House, would agree to the amendment. But if any gentlemen in the House would have the goodness to attend to the amendment while it was read from the chair, and then would declare, as a member of that House, that he did no: understand the amendment perfectly, net only would it be matter of jus-
372
Lord Folkestone
obsersed, that several gentlemen who, he believed, intended to be present at the discussion of these amendments, had gone away under an impression that these amendments were not to be proposed to be agreed to until to-morrow. His lordship said, he understood it to be the general practice of that House not to take amendments made by the lords into consideration until the next day after they were brought down.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
desired the Speaker to read, first the bill as it went up to the House of Lords, and then the amendment made by their lordships, which being done.
The Speaker
took leave to observe, that although sometimes amendments made by the lords were taken into consideration on a subsequent day, yet it was extremely frequent for the House to agree to amendments made by the lords on the same day they were brought down. One of the amendments had been already explained: as to the rest, they were merely verbal. It was for die House to say whether it would consider them now, or defer them to a future day.
The Chancellor
of the Exchequer said, that the substantial amendment now before the House was only to carry into effect the manifest intention of the House, but which intention had been imperfectly expressed. Here he went over the clause again, and observed, that the bill as it originally stood, only affected volunteers who should be ballotted, &c. but did not provide for the case of those who ought have been balotted and exempted on account of being volunteers, but who ought not to have such exemptions longer than they should serve as volunteers.
Mr. Windbam
said, that the importance of the subject was unquestionable. The propriety of adjourning the discussion of it was to him obvious. He professed himself incapable of understanding this amendment on the sudden, at least of being sure he understood it. Gentlemen had gone away under the idea that in was not to be discussed to-night, and he thought it was little more than matter of course to defer it until to-morrow. He was really ignorant of the possible effect of certain words being introduced into a bill like this, and his ignorance strengthened his argument in this case, for it was impossible without time to remove
373
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that by the word substantial amendment, he did not mean that which the right hon gent. who spoke last, might suppose; he meant it only by way of distinction from those amendments which were merely verbal.
Mr. Giles
said, he considered the bill as new amended by the lords, to be precisely what the House intended it to be when they passed it, but from an oversight had omitted to express with precision, for which reason he supported the amendment, and saw no reason for delaying the consideration of it.
Mr. Calcraft
adhered to his former opinion upon this subject, on account of gentlemen having left the House under an idea I that the subject was not to be discussed tonight. As to the amendment being only what the House intended to have expressed, he did not think, it much to the credit of the House, to have sent into the other House a bill which did not express what was meant by its authors—an additional reason for not being so hasty a second time. He alleged that the House would have done more wisely by printing the bill, and giving more time for its discussion than it had done. The lords had ordered it to be printed, and wisely so, for such measures should have as ample a discussion as possible. In one word, unless some better reason than any he had yet heard, was given for agreeing to these amendments to-night, he should think it his duty to object to that course.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, December. 20, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—Mr. Romilly was heard on the part of the appellant, in the cause of Keighley
v.
374
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, December. 20, 1803.
[MINUTES.]—A message from the lords required the attendance of the Speaker at the bar of that House, where the royal assent was given by commission to the volunteer exemption act.—Mr. Mitford presented an abstract of the account of the commissioners of northern light houses; also an account of the number of ships from Scotland engaged in the whale fishery. Ordered to lie on the table.—On the motion of Mr. Sergeant, a new writ was ordered to be issued for the election of a burgess for the borough of Dorchester in the room of the hon. Cropley Ashley, who has accepted the office of clerk of the deliveries in his Majesty's ordnance.——Mr. Sheridan presented a petition from certain electors of the borough of Liskeard, in Cornwall, complaining of the decision of the Committee appointed to try the merits of the last elec-
375
An Account the
of all the
in the Years and Quarters ending the 10th day of October,
and
respectively.
In the Quarters ended
In the Years ended.
Oct. 10, 1802.
Oct. 10, 1803.
Oct. 10, 1802.
Oct. 10, 1803.
Customs £.
1,274,
8
3
1,474,957
9
9¼
2,345,461
18
11
3,857,400
18
2
Excise, Consolidated
3,619,647
0
0
3,813,079
0
0
12,203,226
3
8
14,098,990
0
0
Stamps
760,444
0
0
816,747
1
6½
2,931,768
13
8
3,153,040
4
3
Incidental Duties
702,422
18
7
797,008
18
5½
4,539,540
18
0¾
5,156,997
6
8
Duties raised in 1803, by means of a Consolidation of the Customs, by the Act of the 43d Geo. III.
—
—
—
62,500
0
0
—
—
—
62,500
0
0
Sugar, Malt, Tobacco, An.
1,773.899
16
3¼
1,283,428
17
3¼
3,509,095
14
6¼
3,995,407
4
9
8,131,168
3
1¼
8,245,718
7
1½
25,199,093
14
0
30,192,335
3
9
WAR TAXES
British Spirits
38,335
—
—
38,335
—
—
Foreign Spirits
120,5505
—
—
120,505
—
—
Wine
57,886
—
—
57,886
—
—
Goods and Shipping
198,640
18
9¾
198,640
18
9¾
Malt
394
—
—
394
—
—
Sweets
132
—
—
132
—
—
Tea
215,815
—
—
215,813
—
—
Exchequer, November 28, 1803.
L. 631,705
18
9¾
L. 631,705
18
9¾
JAMES FISHER.
An Account of the Amount of the
of the
in Circulation (including
payable after Seven Days Sight) on the 1st January, April, August, and October,
respectively; distinguishing the Amount of the several Descriptions of Notes below the Value of
Value of
L.
s.
d.
L.
s.
d.
Value of
L.
s.
d.
L.
s.
d.
L. 5 and Upwards
1,624,401
4
8½
L. 5 Upwards
1,806,194
1
6
L. 1
1,41,403
0
0
999,351
11
4½
L. 1
143,226
0
0
1,012,596
4
1½
1 Guinea
541,208
17
0
1 Guinea
542,976
10
6
1 & ½
311,597
1
7½
1 & ½
314,422
2
7½
3
5,142
12
9
3
11,971
1
0
1803. January 1st L.
2,623,752
16
1
1803. August 1st L.
2,818,790
5
7½
L. 5 and Upwards
1,642,254
14
7½
L. 5 and Upwards
1,769,950
9
11
L. 1
139,748
0
0
1,017,696
1
10½
L. 1
143,314
0
0
1,011,891
7
4½
1 Guinea
538,911
2
0
1 Guinea
544,992
3
6
1 & ½
314,391
18
4½
1 & ½
312,661.
15
7½
3
24,645
1
6
3
10,923
8
3
1803. April 1st £.
2,659,950
16
6
1803. October 1st £.
2,781,841
17
3½
For the Gov. and Comp. of the Bank of Ireland.
Dublin, 9th Dec. 1803.
Wm. Donlevy, Acct. Gen.
376
fore, prayed permission to oppose the resolutions of the said Committee.—Another petition of o similar nature was presented by Mr. Sheridan, from a Mr. Child, of Liskeard. Both petitions were ordered to be taken into consideration on Tuesday the 10th of April next.—Ordered, that the account presented by Mr. Vansittart on the 14th instant, relative to bounties given on fish brought to the London market, should be printed.—On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer the House adjourned to Wednesday the 1st of February 1804.
377
An Amount of the
of the
in Circulation on the 1st of June, 1st Aug. 1st Oct. and 25th Nov.
distinguishing the Amount of those that were below the Value of Five Pounds.
Amount of Bank of England Notes of Five Pounds each, and upwards, including Bank Post Bills payable Seven Days after Sight.
On 1st June 1803,
12,847,540.
1st August 1803,
13,013,180.
1st October 1803,
12,570,500.
25th November 1803,
13,502,690.
Amount of Bank of England Notes of £2. and £ l. each.
On 1st June 1803,
£ 3,253,600.
1st August 1803,
3,721,330.
1st October 1803,
4,052,010.
25th November 1803,
4,429,240.
Wm. Walton, Acct. Gen.
Bank of England, 2d Dec. 1803.
General Return of the Royal Army of Reserve; made up from the latest Returns received by the Inspector General.
Inspector General's Office, Dec. l803.
SCOTLAND.
No. of Men.
Rejected
Dead.
Deserted.
Effective and Present.
No, due, including Casualties
COUNTIES.
Aberdeen
154
—
—
4
150
350
Argyle
76
—
—
6
70
203
Ayr
286
2
2
12
270
57
Banff
29
—
—
—
29
105
Berwick
94
2
1
l6
75
41
Bute
3
—
—
—
3
43
Caithness
84
2
—
1
81
10
Clackmannan
41
—
—
—
41
1
Cromarry
9
—,
—
—
9
3
Dumbarron
87
2
—
13
72
8
Dumfries
177
1
—
35
141
72
Edinburgh
358
16
—
39
303
180
Elgin
64
1
—
—
63
40
Fife
358
—
—
14
334
29
Forfar
293
2
—
2
289
94
Haddington
75
6
—
9
60
56
Inverness
122
—
—
—
122
166
Kincardine
70
—
—
4
66
36
Kinross
24
—
—
—
24
2
Kirckudbright
66
1
—
7
58
55
Lanark
509
—
—
21
488
75
Linlithgow
67
6
—
7
54
16
Nairn
21
—
—
2
19
13
Peebles
31
1
—
2
28
6
Peith
462
—
—
25
437
53
Rentrew
279
1
—
25
253
50
Ross
171
3
—
3
165
38
Roxburgh
100
5
—
6
89
45
Selkirk
19
—
—
—
19
—
Stirling
173
6
—
16
151
46
Sutherland
61
1
—
—
60
15
Wigtown
82
—
—
2
80
9
Total, for Scotland.
4435
58
3
271
4103
11897
378
General Return of the Royal Army of Reserve for England and Wales.
ENGLAND and WALES.
No. of Men.
Rejected
Dead.
Deserted.
Effective, and Present.
No Due, including Casualties.
COUNTIES.
Anglesea
45
2
—
2
41
68
Bedlord
173
2
2
—
169
87
Buckingham
348
9
3
13
323
112
Berks
392
32
5
36
319
124
Brecon
106
1
—
2
103
44
Cambridge
318
17
1
12
283
64
Chesbire
594
2
2
28
5 40
162
Cumberland
306
35
2
39
230
176
Cornwall
570
49
2
29
490
85
Cardigan
127
1
—
1
125
142
Carmarthen
230
2
3
2
223
25
Carnarvon
85
1
—
—
84
44
Durham
444
17
2
24
401
77
Devon
12l6
69
4
10
1133
124
Dorset
332
2
3
3
324
61
Derby
587
4
—
53
530
84
Denbigh
130
8
—
—
122
104
Essex
819
31
19
77
693
287
Flint
83
2
—
1
80
55
Gloucester
675
3
3
7
662
114
Glamorgan
199
—
3
2
194
81
Hertford
307
13
4
18
272
129
Huntingdon
123
4
1
56
62
57
Hants
597
2
12
48
535
253
Hertford
418
4
2
68
344
76
Kent
1040
26
7
73
934
492
Lancester
2303
82
2
53
2166
258
London and Middleses
1376
28
4
84
1260
1883
Leicester
510
29
1
10
470
59
Lincoln
639
2
3
10
624
132
Merioneth
86
2
2
—
82
45
Monmouth
127
—
2
—
125
52
Montgomery
160
1
2
1
156
11
Northampton
452
7
3
1
442
166
Norfolk
802
32
14
22
734
193
Northumberland
530
45
1
14
470
155
Nottingham
519
32
—
24
463
97
Oxford
337
27
1
6
303
121
Pembroke
177
1
—
10
166
2
Rutland
42
2
—
1
39
15
Radnor
53
1
—
—
52
22
Shropshire
571
40
13
12
506
286
Suffolk
713
53
26
12
622
245
Surrey
571
10
3
103
455
508
Sussex
371
2
5
91
345
276
Somerset
890
33
—
72
785
198
Stafford
745
1
—
3
741
170
Warwick
595
3
1
8
583
130
Worcester
565
4
1
14
546
42
Westmoreland
166
—
2
6
158
22
Wilts
683
42
7
10
624
103
York West Riding
1844
113
3
28
1700
289
York East Do
343
—
1
2
340
237
York North Do
304
—
1
—
303
149
Total for England and Wales
26739
952
178
1129
24480
9004
379
General Return of the Royal Army of Reserve for Ireland.
IRELAND.
No. of Men.
Rejected
Dead.
Deserted.
Effective and present
No. due, including Casualties.
COUNTIES.
Antrim
245
No particular Return of men rejected at the Receiving Quarters has been made, in consequence of no Expense for Pay &c. having been incurred for such Men.
—
16
229
51
Armagh
241
—
21
220
60
Carlow
87
—
9
73
132
Cavan
203
—
23
180
30
Clare
44
—
1
43
167
Cork (City)
229
—
31
198
82
Do. (County)
310
—
19
291
279
Donegal
108
—
19
89
261
Down
375
—
16
359
66
Dublin (City)
283
—
28
255
25
Do. (County).
134
—
12
122
88
Fermanagh
189
—
9
180
30
Galway
166
—
11
155
195
Kings's
71
—
11
60
220
Kildare
130
—
22
108
102
Kilkenny
115
—
20
97
185
Kings's
206
—
7
190
81
Leitrim
111
—
14
97
113
Limerick (City).
110
—
6
104
176
Do. (County).
109
—
23
86
124
Londonderry
240
—
17
223
127
Longford
175
—
16
159
51
Louth
239
—
40
199
116
Mayo
349
—
42
307
193
Meath
206
—
31
175
105
Monaghan
240
—
18
222
58
Queen's
151
—
16
135
75
Roscommon
80
—
12
68
312
Sligo
207
—
8
199
11
Tipperary
181
—
39
142
208
Tyrone
313
—
21
292
58
Waterford
125
—
14
111
169
Westmeath
166
—
16
150
60
Wexford
17
—
2
15
335
Wicklow
34
—
—
34
176
Total for Ireland
6189
—
—
610
5579
4521
RECAPITULATION.
England and Wales
26739
952
178
1129
24480
9004
Scotland
4435
58
3
271
4103
1097
Ireland
6189
—
—
610
5379
4511
Total for United
37363
101
181
2010
34161
15422
G. Hewitt,
Lt. Gen.
380
Abstract of a List of such Yeomanry and Volunteer Corps as have been accepted, and placed upon the Establishment in Ireland.
Dublin Castle,
th Dec.
COUNTIES.
Captains.
Subalterns.
Serjeants.
Drums, &c.
Establishment.
Rank and File.
Cav.
Inf.
Antrim
66
131
144
54
314
4674
Armagh
29
63
138
20
108
2670
Carlow
17
36
55
14
142
1008
Cavan
37
75
134
30
190
2505
Clare
17
31
41
14
335
499
Cork (County)
73
143
211
70
960
3382
Cork (City)
21
43
77
20
360
1120
Donegal
28
61
123
28
330
2250
Down
79
129
233
58
285
4589
Dublin (County)
37
79
102
36
443
1700
Dublin (City)
87
170
192
66
440
3682
Fermanagh
39
75
160
25
188
3050
Galway
33
76
90
31
427
1413
Kerry
13
25
39
12
148
556
Kildare
17
34
49
14
273
630
Kilkenny
21
41
60
21
325
'971
King's County
32
58
85
29
275
1395
Leitrim
12
31
58
12
180
950
Limerick
27
54
90
25
558
1244
Londonderry
25
55
137
46
266
2630
Longford
14
24
37
11
102
680
Louth
17
38
76
20
247
1140
Mayo
22
43
65
20
120
1140
Meath
24
46
76
20
263
1239
Monaghan
23
46
99
23
170
1800
Queen's County
33
51
92
26
337
1490
Roscommon
14
29
38
13
265
511
Sligo
15
35
46
17
115
892
Tipperary
52
93
172
56
796
2618
Tyrone
67
150
270
67
274
5372
Waterford
20
45
80
19
361
1216
Westmeath
16
33
61
15
139
1022
Wexford
45
67
138
31
371
2252
Wicklow
50
90
132
40
270
2466
1126
2206
3573
1003
1027
64756
Grand Total
82241
Whitehall,
13th December, 1803.
J. King
381
Abstract of the Returns of all the Volunteer and Yeomanry Corps of Great-Britain, whose Services have been accepted by his Majesty, describing each Corps.
Cav.
Infan.
Art.
Rank and File.
Aberdeen
3400
120
3520
Anglesea
1000
1000
Argyll
2028
63
2091
Ayr
144
2677
2691
Banff
960
80
1022
Beddord
177
1801
1978
Berks
634
3006
3484
Berwick
160
772
911
Brecon
1196
1196
Bucks
1122
2426
3121
Bute
38
90
Caithness
1272
1320
Cambridge
163
2485
2500
Cardigan
567
531
Carmarthen
120
2316
2347
Carnarvon
1100
1073
Chester
732
4841
105
5372
Clackmannon
40
296
536
CinquePorts
Cornwall
383
5432
2328
7772
Cromary
160
164
Cumberland
56
3431
330
3736
Denbigh
194
2344
2464
Derby
330
5277
5852
Devon
1873
13197
1325
15212
Dorset
515
2201
2340
Dumbaeton
88
605
630
Dumfries
84
1875
1879
Durham
573
3814
300
4440
Elgin
770
784
Essex
1251
6335
7033
Fife
350
2613
100
2906
Flint
270
2429
2698
Forfar
47
2692
70
2717
Glamorgan
213
2488
2301
Gloucester
644
6436
176
7161
Hants
1252
7164
836
9509
Hereford
180
3720
8532
Hertford
625
2319
50
2762
Huntingdon
166
840
1006
Inverness
3666
3320
Kent
1530
8804
253
10295
Kincardine
824
824
Kinross
280
280
Kircudbright
200
746
946
Lanark
65
4448
4513
Lancaster
586
13710
560
14278
Leicester
622
2946
3488
Lincoln
713
4560
7866
Linlithgow
80
800
638
Lothian, East
205
700
905
Lothian, Mid
300
1574
1843
Lothian, Mid
4858
415
4757
Edinburgh City
382
Cav.
Infan.
Art.
Rank and File.
London
560
13338
12460
Middlesex
82
8299
8370
Man, Isle of
695
693
Merioneth
464
464
Monmouth
125
1624
1656
Montgomery,
120
1560
1680
Nairn
320
320
Norfolk
1120
6511
108
6918
Northampton
1037
3430
4089
Northumberland
517
4411
4726
Nottingham
472
3635
4107
Oxford
591
3322
3516
Orkney and Zetland
Peebles
52
480
532
Pembroke
440
1852
70
2701
Perth
160
3897
63
4036
Radnor
1000
1000
Renfiew
2701
2414
Ross
1620
1620
Roxburgh
108
960
1060
Rutiand
160
335
495
Salop
940
5022
5852
Selkirk
50
100
142
Somerset
1544
7747
9080
Stafford
1090
5425
6072
Stirling
308
1318
65
1667
Suffolk
769
6837
7332
Sutherland
1092
1092
Surrey
944
7801
8105
Sussex
1024
6114
637
6198
Tower Hamlets
4173
3742
Warwick
708
3874
4146
Westminster
260
10438
10684
Westmoreland
1420
1420
Wight, Isle of
120
1732
184
2030
Wigtown
105
624
729
Wilts
850
4524
5176
Worcester
494
4046
4304
York, North Riding
267
438
4683
York, East Riding
382
3473
61
3890
York, West Riding
1606
12990
50
14006
Total of effective Rank and File.
341,687
Field Officers
1,246
Captains
4472
Subalterns
9,918
Staff Officers
1,100
Serjeants
14,787
Drummers
6,733
Grand Total
379,943
Whitchall,
9th December, 1803.
Beginald Pole Carew.
383
List of Acts passed in the present Session of Parliament, from the opening of the Session on Tuesday, Nov.
to the Christmas Recess, Tuesday, Dec.
1. An Act to continue, until six Months after the Ratification of a Definitive Treaty of Peace, the Restrictions contained in several Acts made in the 37th, 38th, 42d, and 43d Years of the Reign of his present Majesty, en Payments of Cash by the Bank of England. [15th Dec. 1803.]
2. An Act for granting to his Majesty the Sum of Eight Thousand Pounds, for the present Relief of certain Curates in England. [15th Dec. 1803]
3. An Act to regulate the Bonds issued by the East India Company with Respect to the Kate of Interest, and the Duty payable thereon. [15th Dec. 1803.]
4. An Act to continue several Laws relating to the suspending the Operation of two Acts of the 15th and 17th Years of the Reign of his present Majesty, for restraining the Negotiation of Promissory Notes and Bills of Exchange under a limited Sum in England; and to the prohibiting the Importation from, and permitting the Exportation to, Great Britain of Corn; and for allowing the Importation of other Articles of Provision without Payment of Duty, until the 25th Day of March, 1805; and to the regulating the Trade and Commerce to and from the Isle of Malta, until six Months after the Ratification of a Definitive Treaty of Peace. [15th. 1803.]
5. An Act to continue, until the 35th Day of March 1805, an Act, pissed in the last Session of Parliament, for discontinuing certain Drawbacks and Bounties on the Exportation of Sugar from Great Britain, and for allowing other Drawbacks and Bounties in Lieu thereof. [15th Dec. 1803.]
6. An Act for suspending, until the 1st Day of August 1804, the Operation of an Act, made in the last Session of Parliament, to continue and amend two Acts made in the Parliament of Ireland, for restraining the Negociation of Promissory Notes and Inland Bills of Exchange, under a limited Sum, within Ireland. [15th Dec. 1803.]
7. An Act to indemnify such Persons in the United Kingdom as have omitted to qualify themselves for Offices and Employments; and for extending the Tunes limited for those Purposes respectively, until the 25th Day of December 1804: and to permit such persons in Great Britain as have omitted to make and file Affidavits of the Execution of Indentures of Clerks and Attornies and Solicitors, to make and file the same on or before the first Day of Michaclmas Term, 1804. [15th Dec. 1803.]
8. An Act to continue, until six Weeks after he Commencement of the next Session of parliament, an Act, made in the last Session of Parliament, intituled, An Act to empower the Lord Liutenants or other Chief Governor or Governors of Ireland, to apprehend and detain Persons as he or they shall suspect for conspiring against his Majesty's Person and Government, until six Weeks after the Commencement of the next Session of Parliament. [15th Dec. 1803.]
384
9. An Act to continue, until six Weeks after the Commencement of the next Session of parliament, an Act passed in the last Session of Parliament, intituled, 'An Act for the Suppression of Rebellion in Ireland, and for the Protection of the Persons and Property of of his Majesty's faithful Subjects there, to continue in force until six Weeks after the Commencement of the next Session of Parliament. [15th Dec. 1803.]
10. An Act to continue, until the 25th Day of March 1S05, several Acts of the 41st, 4 2d, and 43d Years of his present Majesty's Reign, for regulating the Drawbacks and Bounties en the Exportation of Sugar from Ireland. [15th Dec. 1803]
11. An Act for enabling the Lord Lieutenant or other Chief Governor or Governors of Ireland, to prohibit, until the 25th Day of March 1805, the Distillation of Spirits from Oats or Oatmeal in Ireland; and for indemnifying such Persons as hive acted in advising; or carrying into Execution a Proclamation of the Lord Lieutenant and Council of Ireland for prohibiting such Distillation, 15th Dec. 1803]
12. An Act to continue, until the 25th Day of March 1805, so much of an Act, made in the 41st Year of his present Majesty's Reign, as relates to the prohibiting the Exportation from Ireland of Corn or Potatoes, or other Provisions; and to the permitting the Importation into Ireland of Corn, Fish, and Provisions, without Payment of Duty. [15th Dec. 1803.]
13. An Act to prevent the Desertion and Escape of Petty Officers, Seamen, and ethers, from his Majesty's Service, by Means or under Colour of any civil or criminal Process. [15th Dec. 1803.]
14. An Act to amend two Acts, passed in the 41st and 43d Years of the Reign of his present Majesty, for permitting Portugal Wine to be landed and warehoused in the United Kingdom; and to allow Spanish Wine to be so landed and warehoused. [15th Dec. 1803.]
15. An Act for raising the Sum of Five Millions by Loans or Exchequer Bills, on the Credit of such Aids or Supplies as have been or shall be granted by Parliament for the Service of Great Britain, for the Year 1804. [15th Dec. 1803.]
16. An Act for continuing and granting to his Majesty certain Duties upon Malt, in Great Britain, for the Service of the Year 1804. [15th Dec. 1803.]
17. An Act for continuing and granting to his Majesty a Duty on Pensions, Offices and Personal Estates, in England; and certain Duties on Sugar, Malt, Tobacco, and Snuff, in Great Britain, for the Service of the Year 1804. [15th Dec. 1803.]
18. An Act to explain and amend two Acts, passed in the 42d and 43d Years of the Reign of his present Majesty, relating to Volunteers, and Volunteers Corps in Great Britain. [20th Dec. 1803.]
385
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 1, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
The House met this day pursuant to adjournment. The Speaker took the chair at half past three. A bill for inclosing lands within the manor and parish of Kettering, in the county of Northampton, was read a second time, and committed,—Mr. Hobhouse brought in a bill for enabling his Majesty to settle certain lands on his Royal Highness the Duke of York. Read a first time, and ordered for a second reading.—A new writ was also issued for the election of a member for Truro, in the room of J. Lemon, Esq. who since his election, has accepted the place of commissioner for executing the office of lord high admiral of Great-Britain.—A new writ was also issued for the election of a member for Walling-ford, in the room of Sir F. Sykes, deceased.—Mr. Vansittart moved, that there be laid before the House the amount of the net produce of the permanent taxes, from the 5th January 1803 to the 5th January 1804, distinguishing each quarter. Ordered.—Mr. Secretary Yorke gave notice, that he should this day se'nnight move for leave to bring in a bill to consolidate, explain, and amend the several acts that have been passed respecting the volunteers—The Chancellor of the Exchequer gave notice, that he should to-morrow move for a select committee, to inquire into the state of civil list. He should also move to-morrow for a select committee to take into consideration the joint account between Great-Britain and Ireland.
[MIDDLESEX ELECTION PETITION.]—
Mr. Fox
rose to draw the attention of the House to a petition which had been presented against the return for Middlesex, by a certain description and number of persons, stating themselves to be freeholders of that county. With regard to the point of time, he had not a moment to lose in making the observations which occurred to him respecting the formality of that petition, as the merits of the petition were to be taken into consideration to-morrow. But what he had to observe with respect to that petition would be best understood by a reference to the 26th of the King. The House would recollect, that for the better arrangement of petitions on controverted elections, several provisions had been made in that act, not only for preventing the penalties of the act, but also for preventing the presentation of undue and informal petitions one of those provisions stated, in a very plain and distinct manner, that the House could net proceed at all on
386
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he could not subscribe to the sentiments expressed by the hon. gent, as he entertained an opinion altogether different upon the point in question, from that which seemed to be entertained by the hon. gent. He hoped, however, the House would not be unwilling to adopt one of the modes which had been pointed out; for on a point of such essential importance, mature deliberation was evidently necessary. But though the question were to be delayed, vet even now
387
Mr. Fox
then moved, that the order of the day be read for taking the petitions into consideration to-morrow; which being read accordingly, the order was discharged, and a new order made out for taking the Middlesex petition, and the petition for Midhurst, into consideration on Friday next.—Mr. Fox, after consulting a few minutes with some of his friends, rose, and gave notice, that he should to-morrow make a motion for rejecting the petition to which he had adverted.—The Committees of Supply and of Ways and Means were deferred till Friday, after which the House adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February. 2, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Quintin Dick, Esq. took the oaths and his seat for the burgh of Westloe, in Cornwall.—Sir John William Anderson presented a petition from the Directors of the West India Dock Company, praying for leave to bring in a bill enabling them to raise further sums of money for the completion of the works necessary to finish the docks. The petition was referred to a Committee.—Sir J. Newport moved for an account of the sums of money paid for the support of House. of Industry in Ireland, by the grand juries of that country, in the years 1801-2 and 3 Ordered.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, that leave be
388
[MIDDLESEX ELECTION PETITION.]—
Mr. Fox
rose, agreeably to his notice of yesterday, to call the attention of the House to the petition of certain persons, styling themselves freeholders of Middlesex, complaining of the return for that county.—The hon. member began by stating, that the point to be considered by the House was one so clear, and so little liable to any possibility of difference of opinion, that he did not conceive it necessary to occupy the time of the House with any detailed arguments. It would not, he conceived, be attempted to be denied that acts, of parliament were, in every case, to be interpreted in a manner, as nearly as possible, agreeably to the precise letter, and if this was admitted as a general principle, it could not be denied that such a mode of interpretation was more especially proper, when the act itself was framed for the express purpose of putting an end to vague ideas of the intentions of the legislature. The House had, on the present occasion, a very simple duty to perform. They had only to lay out of their consideration every idea but the positive mandatory injunctions of the act, and then their decision could not, even for a moment, become a matter of doubt. Gentlemen, he was convinced, need not be reminded of the circumstances which originally gave rise to the
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390
391
392
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394
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to reply. He had listened with the utmost attention to all that had fallen from the hon. gent., and the result was, that the impression which he felt yesterday, when the subject was first mentioned, had not only remained unimpaired, but was now considerably strengthened and confirmed. He was ready to concur heartily with the hon. member in his views of the importance of the subject, both as it respected the propriety of adhering rigidly to the provisions of every act of the legislature, and the necessity of avoiding all restraint on the right of the sub-
395
Mr. Fox
having answered this question in the affirmative,
396
prima facie,
397
Mr. Francis.
—Sir; it appears to me that the question, whether this petition ought or ought not to be referred to a Committee, is a question of positive law, and cannot be determined by any other rule or principle. The legislature has foreseen and provided for the case. We have no right to enter into any considerations external or collateral to the specific provision of the law. There is no appeal from the rigour of the Act of Parliament to the equity of this House. We have no legal competence to proceed in any petition against an undue return, in which the petitioners do not distinctly state or allege that they had a right of voting at the election. These petitioners have not made that allegation. But the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer asserts, that these petitioners have followed the example of others; that the course of the House has been to proceed in petitions, in which the allegation of right has been omitted, and that they ought not to suffer because they cannot have been misled by following the practice of the House as they find it in the Journals. Certainly the right hon. gentleman's doctrine conveys an excellent instruction to the present and to all future petitioners, "Do not look into the Act of Parliament, never inquire what the law prescribes, or how it directs you to act. All you have to do is to examine the Journals of the House of Commons, and govern yourselves by the precedents or course of proceeding. as you find it in those Journals." This, though not so delivered in terms, is the real result and amount of the right hon. gentleman's doctrine. Then, Sir, I ask who, and what is the House of
398
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
begged leave to have the precedents read by the clerk, to which he alluded in the course of his speech, and in which no claim, with respect to the right of voting at the time of election, had been set up by the petitioners, although their petitions had been taken into consideration, and decided on by the House. The first was that of the 3d of December, 1790, presented by freeholders of the County of Stirling; the second that of the 8tli of December, in the same year, presented by freeholders of the stewartries of Orkney and Shetland; and the third that of the 14th in the same year, presented by the freeholders of the county of Radnor. There was also another from Worcester, precisely of a similar nature, presented the 30th of October, 1796. It further appeared, that there were two cases of the same kind which had occurred during the present Parliament. The first was the petition of freeholders of the county of Caermarthen, on the 1st of September, 1802; and the second related to the freeholders of Stirling. It should not be forgotten, that fn the Committee to which they had been referred, a question was started, similar to the one started that evening by the hon. gent.; yet, notwithstanding the discussions arising from the question, the Committees proceeded, and the petitions were not only taken into consideration, but that from the freeholders of Stirling was renewed. The Chancellor of the Exchequer concluded with observing, that he could cite many other cases in 1790, and 1796, of a nature precisely the same as those which had been read, but he felt ii his duty not to trouble the House with any precedents in addition, which he
399
Mr. T. Grenville
took an historical review of the custom of Parliament which preceded, and the motives which urged to, the introduction of the Act of the 10th of his present Majesty, commonly called the Grenville Act. The grounds of that act be described to be a strong jealousy of the discretion which the House had previously exercised in deciding upon election returns, and petitions relating thereto. The surrender of that discretion to Committees to be appointed by the House, precluded, in his apprehension, such a decision upon the ease then under discussion as the motion of the hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) called for. According to the form of proceeding which prevailed previous to the enactment of the law he referred to, he believed it would be found that the general, he would not say the invariable, rule was to receive petitions from those only who claimed the right of voting at the elections to which their petitions related, and who had an interest in the decision of the same. The cause of the change produced by the Act of the 10th arose from the strong persuasion which existed in the mind of the author of that act, that it was necessary, for the best purposes, to limit the authority of the House upon Election cases. The course prescribed by that act had gone on without any alteration until the period when the Act of the 28th of the King, upon a clause on which the motion professed to be grounded, was brought before the House, in consequence of its appearing that, notwithstanding the many advantages which resulted from the act of the 10th, to which the respectable mover of the bill of the 28th bore ample testimony, yet that in the instance of persons presenting petitions, it was safe and prudent to resort to the old established custom that prevailed antecedent to the former act, and to restore to the House some part of the discretion of which it had deprived itself by that act. From that consideration arose the clause now under debate, and, KS it struck his mind, the petition to which the motion alluded to, was not, in the point of formality so much insisted upon, inconsistent with the custom to which, after an experience of 16 years, the House, by the act of the 28th, had thought proper to recur.—This observation he put as to the equity of the case, and, with respect to the actual mandatory words of the clause, as they were described, by the hon. mover, he put against this construction of that clause, the practice of the
400
Mr. Jekyll
expressed his concurrence in the sentiments of the hon. mover, and his
401
ex vi termini,
malus usus
quo warranto
402
Lord Archibald Hamilton
observed, that having read the Act of the 28th of his Majesty on this subject, be could not hesitate a moment in affirming, that it was so clear and explicit on this point, that scarcely any argument was necessary. A laudable desire was expressed on the other side, for the rights of the people to petition this House. But, however much it might be wished, that the present petition should be received, it could not be properly done in the face of an Act of Parliament; nor, indeed, when there was so serious an objection against it, would it be doing justice to the other party to hear it. He was of opinion, that though the petition should be rejected, the parties were not deprived of the means of redress. It was well known, that nothing could be more frequent in the King's Bench, than to set aside a rule or declaration, merely for an informality. But the party had still the right to come forward for redress, having amended what was wrong.
Mr. Tierney
said, it had been his practice, when any matter was doubtful, to open the door as widely as possible for its discussion, and he entreated the House to see what the hardship would be, and it must fall on the petitioners, if this petition was now rejected. It was worth while to look at the course which this proceeding had taken; no objection whatever was started against this petition when it was presented. What was the reason why the hon. gent. who now brought this motion forward, had stifled all those feelings which he knew he had upon this occasion in favour of substantial justice, and to insist on the dry letter of the law? It certainly must be his superior sense of duty to support the regularity of the proceedings of that House. But why had he not told these petitioners of this informality sooner? If he had said at the time of presenting this petition, that the petition could not have been received, because the words were not in it which the hon. gent. contended the act required should have been in it, the petition might have been rejected without any hardship on the petitioners; so that the formality of the proceedings of the House would have been preserved, and substantial justice might have been done to the parties complaining at the same time, for then another petition might have been presented, and the words, now said to be wanting, might have been supplied. But what was the
403
404
405
Mr. Serjeant Best
said, he felt himself hound to vote for the affirmative of the question now before the House; and it did appear to him to be a question of infinite importance, and much beyond the point of the merits of the case. The House was now hitting in its judicial, and not in its legislative character. That House, although a supreme court of judicature, was as much bound, by the law of the land, as she meanest court in the land, and indeed it was more dangerous for such a high court to do any thing contrary to law; than any other court, on account of the example of it. Now, considering this question as a lawyer, he could not say there was much doubt upon it. He was sorry, indeed, that the objection had occured, for it might deprive the freeholders of the county of Middlesex of redress in this case; but whatever right they might have, and however they might he infringed upon with impunity, it was better to surfer that inconvenience and adhere to the general rules of law, whatever might be the effect of such rules in a particular instance, than to bend such rules to suit the rule to any motion, real or imaginary, of she substantial justice of any particular case. A great deal had been said on the equitable construction which ought to be put upon this statute. He did not assent to this doctrine, for he conceived that all acts of parliament should be construed with
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407
408
The Attorney General
said, that perhaps the monstrous injustice of this case might have had some influence upon his judgment, for most unquestionable it was, that monstrous injustice would he done to the petitioners, if the petition should now be rejected. If the argument upon which the motion was founded was wrong, the reason which was proposed by the hon. gent, who moved it would be worse even than adopting the petition, supposing ins objections to it to be well-founded, because it would be trespassing more upon the act of Parliament, than even a wrong adoption of this petition, which he maintained they were not; it would be open for the committee to consider the merits of the petition. If they were wrong in receiving the petition, the judgment of the committee would correct them, whereas if they were wrong in rejecting the petition, the question would be shut for ever. He thought, therefore, that in a question where these was a considerable degree, of doubt, the House would do we'd to send it to a committee, rather than decide for themselves; for, in the one ease, the error might be corrected, and in the other, it was impossible. From the year 1788 down to the present time, the practice or the House upon this question did not create any doubt whatever; for, petitions similar to the present had been frequently entertained, and it might be called an interpretation of the law by that House, and by receiving such petitions, they may be said to have pronounced judgment upon tins statute. The case was not such as his hon. and learned friend over the way (Mr. Jekyll) stated it; for lie had compared ibis case with the decisions of courts of justice upon cases of quo warranto, &c Between the proceedings of courts of justice in such cases, and the decisions of the House upon questions of petitions, he perceived no analogy; for court? or justice, in cases of quowarranto, had frequently decide, that individuals were worng, in the apprehension of their own rights, but, in this case, it was the practice of the House which had decided
409
410
411
Mr. Fonblanque
supported the motion. It only required to look at the petition and at the act, to be convinced that the terms of the statute bad not been complied with. This was a question of great importance, both as it respected the parties and as it respected the practice of the House. But the question was. whether by their own discretion, the House were to set aside an act of Parliament. He then read part of the act, and observed, that it was impossible any one could think
412
Mr. Jarvis
observed, that he was of opinion that the motion ought to be negatived, upon these grounds. The object of the act was to prevent the House from being harassed with improper petitions, and stated that none such should be proceeded upon. But the House had received many petitions since, not strictly conformable to this act, and in this very business they had proceeded upon already; and therefore the objection to it came too late. Pie admitted, that had it been urged when the petition was first presented, it could not have been so easily answered. Since this was a motion certainly not very honourable for justice to the individuals, it was only a case of necessity that could compel its adoption. But the objection now was too late, and therefore he gave it his decided negative.
Mr. Dallas
thought this a case of much importance, and that it ought to be seriously considered. He thought the question as it stood now, was very different from what it would have been if the objection had been made when that petition was presented; for if the House had rejected it then, it would have been competent, and very easy for the party to have presented another petition free from objection, but now that was become impossible, and the injustice of the case would be enormous if the petition was rejected now, for there would be no remedy left. If the reasoning of the hon. gent, who moved this question, was adopted by the
413
Mr. Deveral
said a few words upon the subject of precedent, and observed, there was not one exactly like the present case.
Mr. Sberidan
said, that it had been stated that the words of the act were not of a peremptory or mandatory nature; that it was now too late to state the objection, and it might properly come under the cognizance of the Committee. Had gentlemen, however, perused the words of the act, they must at once have seen how unfounded these observations were. The clause was peremptory and clear. It first declares shat no proceedings should be held under the petition, unless the persons by whom it was signed had therein asserted their claim to the right of voting at that election. And secondly, imposes a personal obligation on them, within fourteen days, to enter into the proper recognizances. If such were not entered into, the Speaker was directed to report the same to the House; and on such, report, the order for taking the petition into consideration was immediately to be discharged. It was clear that in neither of these cases was the point to go before the Committee for their decision, because no discretion was even left with the House as to those particulars. On the report of the Speaker, that the petitioners had failed to enter into the recognizances required, would it be contended that the House was entitled to exercise a discretionary power? To say that they knew the petitioners' credit to be such, that there was no necessity for recognizances being entered into, and that therefore the petition might still be entertained? They unquestionably could not. All discretionary power was then gone from them, and the petition must be discharged. The whole question for the consideration of the House at present was, did such words occur in the petition as warranted them, under the enact-
414
Sir William Pulteney
said, lie agreed with the honourable gentleman who spoke last, that that would be the fair way of stating the question, and if it were so put, he should have no difficulty in saying, that the petition did substantially comply with the act, and upon that ground he should give his vote against the motion. With regard to whether the Committee had a right to discuss: this point or not, he should not enter into that consideration at present, but should give his vote upon the ground he had already stated.
Mr. Fox
expessed his surprise at the extraordinary nature of the arguments adduced on the other side. He was concerned to see so much indifference prevail on a question of so much importance, and that gentlemen had so completely lost sight of the question before them. It was not what was justice to this or that party which they were called on to determine, but what was the duty incumbent, in such a case on that House. An, hon. relation of his (Mr. Grenville) had said, that the intention of the act was to restore to the House the rights which it possessed previous to the statute of the 10th of the King. Whatever might have been the intention of the Legislature in this respect, he maintained, however, that such intention it had not carried into effect. The Legislature had there clearly and explicitly prescribed and laid down to the House, how they were to act, and had invested them with no discretionary powers whatever.—Another hon. and learned gent, had admitted the necessity of some statement, similar to that pointed out in the act, being contained in the petition, but how did he get quit of this? By saying, let it go to the Committee, and be there decided. The legislature, however, had drawn a clear line of distinction between the duties or that House and of the Committee. To the House it had said, "You shall not proceed on any petition in which the petitioners do not claim a right to vote at the election against
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ignornntia legis non excusat.
The Speaker
rose and observed, that there was already a question before the House, and until that was disposed of, no one could, consistently with order, be received.
Mr. Fox
apologised by saying, he certainly did not mean to propose any such question, without the leave of the House. [Here there was an urgent call of
Question
Question
Royal voting
bum drum
royal road
HOUSE OF LORDS
Friday, February 3, 1804.
[MINUTES]—
The House met this day pursnant to their lordships' adjurnment for the Christmass recess.—some routine and private business was disposed of—several orders were made with respect to the hearing
418
v.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 3, 1804.
At half past three o'clock the House met, for the. purpose of ballotting for two Committees to try the merits of the returns for the county of Middlesex and the borough of Middlesex. About five the gallery was opened. After a considerable time, during which no business took place, Air. White appeared at the bar with the following list of members, to try the merits of the Middlesex Election Petitions: viz. Sir W. W, Wynne, Bart.; R. W. Backer, Esq.; Hon. M. G. Stewart, Esq.; C. Hawthorne, Esq.; R. S. Ainslie, Esq.; C. S. Hawthorne, Esq.; J. A Wright, Esq.; Sir D. Carnegie, Bart,; Lord Viscount Marsham; Hon. E. S Cooper; Lord John Thynne: J. B. Walsh, Esq.; Hon. N. Fellowes, Esq.—The names being read, the Speaker stated to the House that the sitting member having waved his right of appointing a nominee, it was now the duty of the members already chosen to choose a person for this purpose from among the members present, at the time the ballot was made. The members accordingly withdrew, and in a few minutes after returned with the names of Isaac Hawkins Browne, Esq.; and Nicholson Calvert, Esq. as the nominees for the two parties. The Committee were then sworn at the table and ordered forthwith to proceed with their investigations.—Mr. Dickens appeared at the bar from the Chief Secretary's Office of Ireland, and presented the 29th report of the commissioners for investigating the state of the Irish accounts. It was ordered to lie on the table.—The Committees of Ways and Means and of Supply were deferred till Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Saturday, February 4, 1804.
The House met at the usual hour, and proceeded to ballot for a Committee to try the merits of a petition complaining of an undue election for the borough of Midhurst, when the following gentlemen were chosen: Right Hon. T, Grenvills; Right Hon. J. Smith; Lord H.S. Manners; Earl emple; Lord W. Townsend, W. Clive, Esq.; J.
419
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 6, 1804.
The Bishop of Leighlin and Ferris took the oaths and his seat. The Lord Chancellor moved, that owing to the indisposition of Wm. Rose, Esq. one of the clerks at the table of the House, J. Berkley, Esq. be in the mean time appointed to officiate in his room. Ordered.—The writ of error, Lucena against Crawford, was postponed.—One or two private bills were forwarded in their stages. Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 6, 1804.
[MINUTES]—
The Solicitor General obtained leave 10 bring in a bill to explain and amend an act passed in the 14th of his present Majesty, the object of which was to explain and amend an act pasted in the 10th of Anne, for regulating the mode of selling interest on direct or collateral securities.—Mr. D Parker Coke presented a petition from the insolvent debtors of Nottingham, praying relief. It was ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. T. Grenville reported from the Committee appointed to try the merits of the petition against the return for Midhurst, that the committee found E. Turner, Esq. the sitting member to be duly elected, and the petition against his return frivolous and vexatious.—The Attorney General introduced a bill for indemnifying all such persons as have been concerned in carrying into effect an order of council, allowing the exportation of a certain quantity of seed corn to Portugal. The bill was read a first time, and ordered for a second reading tomorrow.—Mr. Corry moved for a variety of accounts relative to the finances, the manufactures and the commerce of Ireland. Among the most important were, accounts of the ordinary and extraordinary sources of Irish revenue; the arrears and balances in the hands of the commissioners of the treasury; the value of the imports and exports, distinguishing articles of Irish produce; the number of vessels which have cleared out of the ports of Ireland, with the amount of their tonnage, and the number of seamen and boys, by whom they were navigated; an
420
[BARRACKS.]—
Mr. Calcraft
wished to know whether estimates of the expenses of the barrack department were meant to be laid before the House. He thought this a subject of the first importance, and highly worthy of investigation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
professed his readiness to grant every paper which could put the House in possession of the fullest information on the subject.
The Secretary at War
stated, that the papers alluded to, were prepared, and would be produced as they were regularly moved for.—On the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the papers were ordered to be produced.—The other orders being disposed of, the House adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 7, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. Adam was heard as counsel, and evidence was adduced, for the claimant in the Zouche peerage. The farther consideration was deferred till this day se'nnight.—The annual account of the proceedings of the commissioners for paying off the national debt was brought up, and ordered to lie on the table.—The Scotch appeal, Napier v. Napier, was allowed to be withdrawn by mutual consent.
[QUEEN ANNE'S ANNUITIES.]—
The Earl of Suffolk,
adverting to a subject which he touched on last Session of Parliament, wished to know in what manner certain annuities granted in the reign of Queen Anne, amounting to upwards of 46,000l. arising from a capital of 877,000l. which had fallen in during the present year, and a. sum of about a million of capital which would fall in, in the course of next year, were to be applied.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that in the annual accounts laid before the House the sums alluded to by the noble earl would undoubtedly be accounted for, and the mode of their appropriation pointed out.
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[VOLUNTEERS.]—
The Earl of Suffolk
confessed himself satisfied on this head, but said there was another point of great importance, to which he wished to call the attention of the House. The subject lie alluded to was the volunteers. He should now merely touch on the point, as the decision of the court of King's-Bench of yesterday, had rendered it unnecessary for him to take the ground, which, in the event of a contrary judgment, he should have found himself called on to occupy. He felt no hesitation in giving it as his opinion, that, in the event of a contrary decision, every volunteer in the kingdom would have retired in disgust. He intended, in that event, to have submitted a motion to the consideration of the House, which he should now read. As his lordship was proceeding to read the motion, he was I called to order by
Lord Walsingbam,
who objected to any motion being read which was not properly before the House.
The Earl of Suffolk
asserted his right to make any motion which he might think consistent with the discharge of his duty.
The Lord Chancellor
also spoke to order. The noble earl, as he understood him, had I only stated, that if an event had not taken place, he intended to have submitted his motion to the House. In this view of the case, Lord Walsingham was correct in objecting to its being read. If, however, it was the noble earl's intention to submit it to the House, he was clearly intitled so to do.
The Earl of Suffolk
said, that it surely was his intention to submit his motion to the consideration of their Lordships, though, on account of the decision to which he had alluded, he should abstain from the remarks he must otherwise have made. He concluded, by moving, that a committee of naval and military officers, Members of this House, be appointed to advise with government respecting the volunteers, and to recommend such measures as they may think advisable for rendering them most serviceable and efficient.
Lord Hawkesbury
could not think the motion of the noble earl exactly well timed. He could not be ignorant that the servants of government had pledged themselves immediately to bring the question of the volunteer system before Parliament. Whatever, therefore, the noble earl had to propose on that subject, he would then have an opportunity of bringing forward. As all questions, however, of this nature were supposed to originate in his Majesty's mi-
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The Earl of Suffolk
said, that it consisted with his knowledge, that in the corps with which he was connected, had it not been for the decision to which he bad alluded, every man in the corps, both officer and private, would have thrown down their arms. It was the duty of government to conciliate the volunteers, not to disgust them. Had the measure which he now proposed been at mice adopted, the explanatory bill, alluded to by the noble lord, would have been rendered unnecessary.—He had not proposed a general council of military officers, but one composed of members of that House, who might have been called together without inconvenience. It had been said, that great military characters had been consulted. He could however say, that many of the first military characters in the country, with whom he was acquainted, had not been consulted of the subject.—The motion was put and negatived without a division.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 7, 1804.
This day a ballot was appointed to take place for a Committee to try the merits of the petition respecting the late election for Southwark; and also a ballot for another Election Committee: but at four o'clock only 98 members were in the House, and it being necessary, according to order, that 100 members should be present before any ballot could commence, the House adjourned the to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 8, 1804.
The Scotch appeal, Graham v. Weir,
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 8, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Before the gallery was opened, we understand that Sir John William Anderson presented a petition from Messrs. Boydells, which he prefaced by observing, that the exertions of those gentlemen had tended, in the greatest degree, to encourage the arts in this country. Before they undertook an extensive and liberal specula ion connected with that subject, scarcely any other prints worth looking at were to be seen but French prints, imported here; but through the means of their efforts, the graphic productions of this country had obtained an extensive circulation upon the Continent, as well as they had deservedly attained a decided superiority at home. Unfortunately, however, the French revolution, that curse upon the human race, had in a great measure put a stop lo the circulation upon the Continent of those productions. The Messrs. Boydells it was almost needless to state, were highly honourable men. Mr. John Boydell was a member of the court of aldermen, and had served the offices of sheriff and lord mayor of the city of London; he was now at the advanced age of S5, and wished to be enabled to lay his head upon his pillow with the conscious satisfaction of having discharged all the demands of his creditors. The prayer of the petition was, that leave might be given to bring in a bill to enable Messrs. Boydells to dispose of their magnificent collection of prints by way of lottery. The petition was received without opposition, and ordered to be referred to a Committee to report their opinion thereon to the House.
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Speaker
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[CONDUCT OF GENERAL FOX.]—
Admiral Berkeley.
—Sir, it is not at present my intention to press the motion of which I gave notice before the recess, for the production of certain papers respecting the insurrection in Dublin on the 23d of July last, and the conduct of the Irish government upon that emergency. The principal object of the motion of which I formerly gave notice, was to throw as much light as possible on the conduct of an hon. relative of mine (General Fox) upon that occasion, as I had conceived that some expressions which were made use of by some right hon. members of this House, implied a strong reflection on the character of that gallant officer. As I am now, however, given to understand, that those who made use of the expressions to which I allude, expressly disavow any intention of criminating that brave and meritorious officer, I feel it no longer necessary to press the motion of which I formerly gave notice.
Mr. Secretary Yorke.
—Sir, although it is, perhaps, not strictly regular in me to offer any observations upon the hon. member's choosing to withdraw his motion, yet I must say I am extremely glad, that, upon consideration, he had thought proper to pursue this course; arid it gives me the more pleasure, as I feel perfectly convinced that it never could have been the intention of his Majesty's ministers, and I am sure it was never my intention, in any manner to criminate that gallant officer, whose merit and whose services we are very willing to acknowledge.
Sir John Wrottesley,
—Sir, it gives me much pleasure to hear from one of his Majesty's ministers so honourable a testimony of the merit of the gallant officer who has devoted his life to the interests of his country j but when I consider the circumstances attending the late rebellion in Ireland, I cannot but feel convinced that there must have been in some quarter the grossest negligence and inattention; it therefore appears to me, that the House would not act consistent with the public duty, in suffering this business to rest here without further examination. I therefore give notice, that, on Monday se'night, I shall move for the production of certain papers, which I conceive necessary for the information of the House upon this subject.
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke,
agreeable to his notice on a former day, rose to move for leave to bring in a bill for consolidating and explaining the existing acts for the regulation of the
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Mr. Sberidan
expressed his regret, that the opinion which he held respecting the right of electing officers belonging to volunteer corps, should be misunderstood by the right hon. gent, who had just sat down, for he entirely agreed with that right hon. gent, that no such right existed in any corps in whose original otter of service such a right was not expressly demanded and acceded to by government; and he also agreed that any corps, claiming any such privilege of electing their own officers, under different circumstances, misunderstood their rights and their duties; but if it was meant that the recommendation of an officer by any corps was not to attended to, he wished to know where they who would reject such recommendation would desire the power of appointing such officer to rest? would they wish the commission to originate in the crown, in the lord lieutenant, or the deputy lieutenants of counties? Or could it be seriously supposed, that any or either of those arrangements would be preferable to that which the volunteer corps, in general, desired, and which must tend to render them more effective, by the mutual attachment which must subsist between them and officers of their own choice? The right hon. gent, had observed, that the recommendation of officers should properly belong to the lord lieutenant;, out that he, from his situation, should feel himself bound to advise his Majesty not to attend to such recommendation, if the person recommended should appear to him to be ineligible, and he would be glad to know whether the right hon. gentleman's exercise of the same discretion would not be sufficient to prevent the ap-
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Lord Castlereagh
observed, that the hon. gent, who had just spoken, had not followed his right hon. friend very closely in his ob-
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Mr. Wbitbread.
—Sir; if it had not been for the allusion made by my hon. friend (Mr.Sheridan) I should not, perhaps, have said any thing at present upon the subject now before the House, but I think it necessary to say a few words on the subject of the different corps chusing their own officers, as stated by the noble lord and the right hon. gent., particularly on that which has been stated by the right hon. gent who has informed the House of the advice he should give to his Majesty, in the event of any military corps persisting in the choice of its own officers. And, Sir, lam the more desirous of adverting to the sentiments of the right hon. gent, as they came from himself, than to the explanation of the noble lord. The right hon. gent has said that if any corps should persist in the right of recommending to his Majesty its officers to command them, that he should advise his Majesty to dismiss that corps; that he should advise his Majesty, in the first instance, not to listen to such recommendation; and, in the second, to dismiss such corps if they should persist in such recommendation. This, Sir, I apprehend, is much too genera. The terms of the corps which I have the honour to command were, that they should serve under officers specifically named by themselves; not only so, but also such as they may recommend hereafter to his Majesty, through the medium of the lord lieutenant of the county. Their services were accepted after they sent in these terms, nor were the terms in the least degree qualified when the service of this corps was accepted. If they had been told that they should not have this choice or recommendation not only of their present commander but also of their other officers, or that they should not be allowed to continue to have that recommendation, I really apprehend, Sir, that no such corps would have been formed at all. Now I should like to ask the right hon. gent., whether he would think himself consistent if he attempted to take away from that corps the right of recommendation at all? As to the distinction between election and recommendation, I can hardly perceive it they are in substance the same; for neither means any more, than to submit to the lord lieutenant the propriety of his transmitting to the Secretary of State, the names of the persons whom they wished to be commanded by; but, of course, the crown, acting on the advice of its ministers, would have the right of judging whether
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Mr. Windham
remarked on the conduct of an hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) who had gone before him, who, having begun by professing this agreement with the proposal made by the right hon. secretary, that there should be no discussion that night, had immediately proceeded to take a part in direct opposition to the agreement thus professed.—This, as usual, had led to further deviations, till, step by step, the debate had proceeded, not only into the details of the mea-sue, but in to questions of the constitution of particular corps.—His purpose in rising, was to call to the recollection of the House, the proposal which he had just alluded to, to which he meant to adhere himself, and; which he conceived the I louse would think it, upon the whole, most advisable to adopt.—It was not that in opening the present business, the right hon. secretary had not gone into a variety of topics, which he should be; very glad to remark upon, and which he could not possibly pass over in silence, were silence to be construed as acquiescence. He begged to have, it distinctly understood, that he was silent for the reasons only that he had given; namely, that he concurred in the recommendation of the hon. mover, and would reserve what he had to say to subsequent stages of the proceeding. Some of the topics of the right hon. gentleman were to Le sure, of a sort on which it did not seem that there was much to be said. When the right hon. gentleman laid down his laws of debating, having in view, he supposed, the well-known laws of philosophising, and declared that they were to proceed without heat, to abstain from every thing with, to consider every thing with coolness and impartiality, &c. &c,; and when, in like manner, he talked of those, who were enemies to the volunteers only because they were at the same time enemies to the constitution in church and state, he was at a loss to know what to say, because he did not very well know, what the observations meant, nor against whom they were intended to point. His history of the volunteer system, with its descent and progress from the time of the last administration to the present day, inasmuch, as it
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would
Colonel Eyre.
—Sir 5 whatever inclination I may have to express myself at length on this subject, I shall, on the present occasion, adhere to the recommendation given in the outset to abstain from discussion. I have listened with the most sincere satisfaction to the speech of the right hon. Secretary. I highly approve the plan he has brought forward, which I hope will be the means of bringing to perfection the volunteer system, and of correcting those imperfections which are necessarily incident to a measure so vast, new, and unusual, and that overstrained discipline to which, from the urgency of the times, the volunteers were expected to conform. I am, Sir, a warm friend lo the volunteer system, which I think better calculated than any other to effect the security of the country, at the least possible expense; and instead of exhibiting that shattered mansion of which we have just heard, I am confident, that, with proper support, it will form such a bulwark, as to render the country capable of setting every attack at defiance.
Sir John Wrottesley
rose to advert to one particular point in the speech of the right hon. Secretary, that for authorizing the deputy lieutenants of counties, to make the quarters for the militia and army of reserve, heavier in the districts which had not raised a certain proportion of volunteers. This was^ a point not to be considered lightly, and Parliament should pause before it came to any general resolution upon it; so should the
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Mr. Secretary Yorke
rose to reply to some observations which had been offered in disapprobation of the principle proposed by his bill. But first, in answer to what had fallen from the hon. baronet, he said, government, hi the distribution of the volunteer armed force, had acted as the exigencies of the public service seemed to require, or as local circumstances rendered necessary. "With respect to the condition upon which an hon. gent opposite to him (Mr. Whitbresd) had stated the volunteers, generally, to have offered their Services, namely, that of having the privilege continually of electing their own officers, he denied that stub, a principle ever was recognized by government. It was possible that the lord-lieutenants of counties, to whom such offers of service were first tendered, might not always transmit the tenders to his Majesty's Secretary of Slate, in the precise words in which such tenders were originally made; but certainly, since lie had the honour of coming into an official department of his Majesty's government, he had no recollection of any offer made or accepted upon any such principle. There had come, from many populous towns and districts, tenders of service upon the principle of chusing and recommending their own officers 5 but government, without a breach of the military principle, could do no more than connive at the custom, which though they might have done if, was never meant as an ackowledgment of that as a general principle which was contrary to the spirit of military law: and certainly, since he had the honour of filling a situation in the military department of administration, he knew of no offers of service accepted upon such conditions as those of continuing to elect their officers, after the formation of the corps was first completed. The distinction to be taken between the first agreement amongst the mem-
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Mr. Whitbread
rose to explain. He said, that what he called a breach of faith, was, that after putting men to considerable expense and trouble in acquiring discipline, under certain acknowledged principles, by which they were taught to consider themselves exempt from the militia and army of reserve, a new principle is brought forward, to which, unless they think fit to accede, their former exertions go for nothing, and their exemptions are forfeited. If the right hon. gent, denied the right of volunteer corps to elect from amongst themselves the persons whom they should approve for their officers, he begged to know, how it was that the London and Westminster Light Horse continued to this day to exercise that privilege: for surely if it was the right of one volunteer corps it w is equally that of another.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
answered, that the principle upon which that corps was constituted, differed most materially from every other in the service. They were a much older corps than any other, and the principle of electing and recommending their own officers, was a compact agreed to by his Majesty, upon their formation. They had beside another privilege peculiar to them, that their appointments came, not through the lord lieutenant of the county, but direct from the Secretary of State. So long as his Majesty should think it expedient to continue the services of this corps, his Majesty would, no doubt, maintain towards them the terms of their original constitution; but certainly no such principle was implied or understood by government in respect to the volunteer corps in general, as now formed.
Mr. Whitbread
replied, that though, according to the argument of the right hon. gent, the crown had the privilege of rejecting the claims of the volunteers to chute their own officers, he hoped its ministers would have the wisdom to advise the crown not to exert it. Me was sorry to see the right hon. secretary treat the matter so lightly. He conjured ministers seriously and cautiously to pause., before they ventured to
456
Mr. Sturges
rose, and expressed some surprises, that the Right Hon. Secretary of State, in speaking of the constitution and privilege of the. London and Westminster Light Horse, on account of their long services, had made no mention of another respectable corps, which he conceived no less-entitled to consideration for its early, long, arid active services, alluding, we presume, to the Bloomsbury and inns of Court corps, of which the hon. and learned gent, is a member. He could not avoid expressing, in coincidence with a right hon. gent, on the other side of the House (Mr. Windham), his surprise and astonishment, not at what the right hon. secretary had this night expressed, but at his omission to have expressed much more upon a topic of such vital importance to the country. Upon a subject, in which the whole nation was so deeply interested, the mind of the metropolis, and of the country at large, had been bent with anxious expectation to the measure proposed to have been this night explained by the right hon. gent.; a measure which was expected, as it was proposed, to remedy all the defects, and amend all the errors, which had crept into the volunteer system, and excited so much disputation and animosity throughout the country. But what did this great measure amount to, now that it was explained? Merely to a change in the number of days of public exercise necessary to exemption, to a declaration that the corps have no longer a right to elect their own officer, and to a recognition of the right of resignation. He could not but I agree with the hon. member opposite to him (Mr. Whitbread), that such an alteration in the volunteer system certainly amounted I to a breach of faith, and that such a charge in the number of days necessary to the volunteer's exemption was a most material departure from the original condition of service; nevertheless, he was ready to acknowledge it was an alteration necessary to the exigencies of our situation. He did hope, that his Majesty's ministers would have taken a lesson from then precable consequences which had already flowed from I the errors and imperfections of the volunteer system, as formed by them, and would have reported to the wisdom of that House for a complete revision of the system, in order to a complete and effectual amendment of all its detects and errors, instead of tampering I with temporary experiments, which would only expose the system to new difficulties,
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The Attorney-General,
in answer to the observations of his learned friend behind him (Mr. Sturges), observed, that it was the duly of government to bring forward such plans and projects of measures, as they deemed advisable for the public service. There was every opportunity for discussion, amendment, and improvement, in the sub-Sequent stages. He had also to advert to another point laid down by his learned I friend, who carried the idea of breach of faith to far greater length than it had been carried before. In his opinion, the power of resigning put a bar to all possibility of breach of faith. It never could have been meant, or understood, that government should be bound up by the original terms of the first I volunteer acts; and when the right of resignation was recognized and established, Parliament had a right to make every alteration that was deemed just and proper.—With respect to the opinion which he had given, and which had been determined, on the I highest authority, to be erroneous, he did not wish to say any thing. That opinion was now nothing, any farther than it regarded him and he was far from thinking, that the attention of the House would be well taken up by any thing that concerned so humble an individual. But to those who expressed surprize that such an opinion
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Mr. Sturges,
in explanation, said, he never meant to assert that government should canvass the opinion of the House before they brought forward any plan. What he meant was, that the House should do in this case as it had in most others of like importance, resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House, where the subject might be more fully discussed, and government bring forward their present plans in the shape of re-solutions.
Mr. T. Grenville
rose, not to debate at large the whole of the proposed bill in detail, as there would be many opportunities for doing that in the coarse of" its subsequent stages, but to abide by the injunction of the right hon. Secretary on the opening of his proposition, by receiving from him calmly the explanation he had to give, and deferring debate upon the subject to a future opportunity; he could not, however, leave that House without expressing his surprize and astonishment, in common with his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), at the explanation he had given. He coincided in the judicious suggestion of the learned grent. under the gallery (Mr. Sturges), notwithstanding the manner in which his opinion had been attacked by the Attorney General, and from which it would seem almost criminal to call in question the consummate wisdom of his Majesty's ministers, upon a subject on which they had already displayed so much
459
Lord Castlereagh,
in explanation, denied that he had offered the arguments imputed to him by the right hon. gent. or that any thing he had said in the course of debate was at variance with the arguments of his right hon. friend the Secretary of State, or his learned friend the Attorney General. What he had said was, that if there was any particular corps constituted with the particular privilege of electing its own officers, by special compact with the Crown, so long as that corps was allowed to continue in ex-
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Mr. Hobbouse
declared he should not have been actuated by any particular motive to press himself upon the attention of the House, were it not for the observations of the hon. and learned gentleman under the gallery, who professed himself so very zealous an advocate for referring the bill proposed by his right hon. friend below him, to the consideration of a Committee of the whole House. He would ask that hon. and learned gentleman, what were the very strong and imperious reasons which rendered the measure he recommended so very necessary? Was it not in the recollection of every man who heard him, that when the bills passed the House, the consolidation and amendment of which was the object of the proposed act, no objection whatever had been started to them in their rise progress and conclusion, because they had not originated in a Committee of the whole House? The former bills respecting the formation and regulation of volunteer corps, were unquestionably of the highest importance, and yet in no single instance did it occur, that they had been opposed on the ground, of their not having been previously submitted to and framed by a Committee of the whole House. He trusted, therefore, that the argument advanced by the hon. and learned gentleman would be found inapplicable to the question under discussion. Several gentlemen had with great earnestness expressed their astonishment and surprize, not at what had f Hen from his right hon. friend who opened the business that evening, but at what had not fallen from him; not at what had been done, but at what had not been done in the arrangements which were submitted to the consideration of the House. Now he must, in his turn, express his surprize and astonishment that although these gentlemen were so very eager to discover and point out things; which appeared to their minds deficiencies of considerable importance, they never urged improvements which might tend to the amelioration of the volunteer system They were, indeed, extremely ready to detect errors and faults, but they suggested no alteration, and advised no plan of their own framing. The only fair conclusion that could be drawn from their speeches was, that they thought themselves the only fit persons to save the county in the present emergency. They asserted, in bold and confident lan-
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Mr. Grenvide
rose to explain. He observed, that it was unnecessary for him to make any answer to the charge of inconsistency, which had been preferred against him by the hon. gent, who spoke last; but he merely wished to set him right relative to the question of referring the consideration of the bill to a whole House. He had, he begged leave to state, never recommended that this business should be again commenced in the Committee; but he certainly had expressed his concern that it had not originated in a Committee of the whole House, it; which the right hon. gent, who brought it forward, and his colleagues in office, might have derived essential advantages from the talents, information, and experience, of all the members.
Dr. Lanrence
rose to vindicate his right hon. friends from the imputations which had been thrown on them. He observed, that when gentlemen had expressed their surprise, it as only what might very naturally be expected on a view of the various changes which had taken place in the minds of his Majesty's ministers. If, however, the observation of an hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Hobhousej was correct, as to the desire of getting the places of ministers being the principal stimulus to an opposition to their measures, it must be fairly inferred that, as that hon. gent, had for so many years regularly opposed the measures of his Majesty's ministers, that his only view was to get on that Bench on which he now sits. There was one point to which he wished to advert, and he considered it of no small importar.—the present measure had been represented as calculated to remove all possible evils; yet the right hon. Sec. had described it as the least of two evils. The right hon. Secretary had allowed that it was impossible to augment the regular army or the militia; and, therefore, of the two evils, was inclined to choose the least. The system, he contended, had many radical defects, which it would be necessary to remove before it could be rendered efficient to its object. The bill proposed to be introduced was intended to consolidate three Acts of last ses-
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Mr. Secretary Yorke
informed the learned member that he had never stated the impossibility of increasing the regular army. In the present situation of the country, and of the army, he was of opinion that it could not be carried to a greater extent than it had already reached, though, under certain regulations, he thought it might. The militia he had certainly considered as incapable of being further augmented; and, from the situation of France, and of the Continent, it appeared to him unavoidable to provide a considerably greater military force than either the regular army, or the militia, or both, constituted.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—Sir; I shall detain the House but a few moments, before it comes to a decision on the question under consideration. In a discussion of some hours length, I have heard no objection urge against the motion of my right hon. friend, but that it ought to have been submitted to a committee of the who's House, that the whole of the measure proposed to be brought forward was inefficient to its object, and that it would disappoint the expectations entertained by
the public.
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Sir William Young
expressed his disapprobation in general of the whole of the system by which the volunteer force of the country was constituted and governed. His Majesty was, by law, invested with the high privilege of commanding the exertions, and exacting the services of every one of his subjects; and this, his undoubted prerogative, seemed to be questioned, or at least rendered abortive by the general defence act; for in its consequences it tended to paralize the operation of that particular prerogative. He censured the principle of exemption, and the practice of extending those privileges to the great mass of the population of the country, which, by the former laws, were only claimable by persons under peculiar circumstances. The lamentable result of this principle, he might say of general exemption, was, that the recruiting service, whether for the army, or even tor the militia, was completely cut up both root and branch; and all the vigour and activity of the country were protected and locked up, as it were, from the defence of the empire, at the most momentous crisis in which it. was ever placed. Three fourths, at least, of the people, of such part of them as would have enrolled themselves in the militia, or enlisted into r-he army, were, by the ill-considered measure of the I lib of August, sheltered against that prerogative, almost coeval with the monarchy, of being required, in time of peril, to come forward in defence of their country. The hon. member called emphatically on his ministers and particularly on
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 9, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
The House met at half past three o'clock. On counting over the House at four, it appeared that 142 members were present, and they forthwith proceeded to a ballot for a Committee, to try the merits of the petitions complaining of an undue election and return for the borough of Windsor, The gentlemen composing the Committee are, Hon. J. Scott, Hon. H. Lascelles, J. Ferguson, Esq., Hon. E. Lascelles, J. Lubbock, Esq., G. Porter, Esq. J. Fane, Esq., Hon. R. Curzon, Hon. C. Norton, J. W, Willett, Esq., F. Burton, Esq., Sir H. W. Dashwood, Bart., W. Baldwin, Esq. Nominees, C. Dundas, Esq., W. S. Bourne, Esq.—Sir J. Anderson brought up the report of the Committee on the London port bill; the amendments were agreed to, and the bill ordered to be engrossed.—He also
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[MIDDLESEX ELECTION COMMITTEE.]—
Lord Marsham
reported from The. Middlesex Committee, that it had not been able to proceed to business this day, in consequence of the absence of Benj Walsh, Esq. a member of said Committee, which had been occasioned by indisposition, and that a medical gentleman was ready to very the same upon oath at the bar. Dr. Armstrong stated, that he had been to visit Mr. Walsh about three o'clock, when he found him much better; that he was then informed that Mr. Walsh had been so violently affected with a cholera morbus in she morning, as to be unable to leave his house; but that he expected he I should be able to attend his duty to-morrow.—Mr. Walsh was then, on the motion of Lord Marsham, excused for his absence.
[STIRLING PETITION.]—
Mr. Creevey
made a motion that the order for taking the Stirling petition into consideration on the 1st of March should be discharged, to await the decision of the House of Lords on an appeal from an adjudication of the Court of Session in Scotland, relative to certain persons who voted at that election. The application he made on the part of Sir R. Abercromby, and as no inconvenience could ensue to any of the parties, he trusted the House would have no difficulty to accede to his motion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was not aware of any objection to the motion of the hon. member, betas it was usual to precede such motions with notices, he thought the regular course of proceeding should not be departed from. It could not interfere with the object of the hon. member to fix his motion for a future day, and the House and the parties would thereby have an opportunity of considering whether it was or was not liable to objection.—After a few observations from Mr. Curwen and Mr. Wm, Dundas, Mr. Creevey noticed Ins motion for to morrow.
[MOTION FOR PAPERS.]—
Mr. Thomas Grenville
rose, for the purpose of offering
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 10, 1804.
Mr. Rommilly and Mr. Adam were heard
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 10, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Sir John William Anderson brought up the report of the Committee to whom was referred the petition of Messrs Boydells, which was read and agreed to, and leave was given to bring in a bill to enable Messrs. Boydells to dispose of their collection of pictures, drawings, and engravings; and also of their leasehold premises in Pall Mall, commonly called the Shakespeare Gallery, by way of chances. Sir J. W. Anderson and Sir W. Curtis, were ordered to prepare and bring in the same.—Mr. Secretary Yorke brought in a bill to consolidate and amend the three acts of the 43d and 43d of his present Majesty respecting the volunteers; and to make further regulations, &c. This bill was read a first time, ordered to be read a second time on Wednesday next, and to be printed.—The copies of the correspondence, &c. respecting the volunteers which have been already printed, were, on the motion of Mr. Yorke, ordered to be printed.—Mr. Creevey gave notice that he would, on this day seen night, move for the production of certain pipers respecting the island of Ceylon.—The London Wet Docks Bill was road a third time and passed.—The report of the Portugal Corn Bill was brought up, agreed to, and the bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.—A person from the Bank of England presented an account of the receipt and expenditure of 6,287,941l. by the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt for one year, from the 1st of February, 1803, to the 31st of January,
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l.
[STIRLING PETITION.]—
Mr. Creevey
rose, pursuant to notice, to move that the order for a ballot on the petition respecting the election for the county of Stilling, on the 1st of March, should be discharged, and (hat it should be appointed for consideration on the 17th of April next. The grounds on which he made the motion the hon. member stated to be, that a point intimately connected with that election had been decided upon by the Court of Sessions in Scotland, against which decision an appeal was made to the House of Lords. This appeal was appointed to be heard in that House on the 17th of March next, and the hon. member, therefore, expressed a hope that no objection would be offered to the postponement he proposed, particularly as it was essential to the justice of the case.
The Speaker
asked if there was any objection on the part of the sitting member?
Sir T Metcalfe
said, that he was authorised by the sitting member who was absent on military business, to give his assent to the proposition. The motion was accordingly agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 13, 1804.
The Lord Chancellor attended at half-past three o'clock, and after prayers, by the Bishop of Exeter, were read, some routine business was disposed of, two in closure bill were forwarded, and the appeal cause which stood for a hearing was postponed.—Several witnesses were sworn at the bar with respect to their proposed evidence before the Committee of
472
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 13, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
The Loudon Dock Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed.—Mr, Bond brought up copies of an order of Council respecting captures made by Lord Hood at Toulon.—A person from the Exchequer brought up an account of the permanent taxes for the years ending January, 1803, and January, 1804, distinguishing each quarter.—Mr. Secretary Yorke brought up a copy of the circular letters from the Secretary of State to the lord lieutenants of counties respecting the volunteers, which were ordered to be printed.—He also moved to postpone the second reading of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill from Wednesday to Friday next. Agreed to.—Mr. Corry then gave notice that as Wednesday was an open day, he should on that day move for the appointment of a Committee to consider of certain acts relative to the revenue of Ireland.
[SLAVE TRADE.]—
Mr. Wilberforce
said, that as it was his intention, in the course of the present session, to submit to the House a motion respecting the slave trade, it would be necessary that some information should previously be laid before the House; he therefore moved, That an humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be pleased to give directions for there being laid before the House, Copies of such correspondence as may have passed between the Secretary of state and the governors of the colonies in the West-Indies, in pursuance of his Majesty's directions, issued in consequence of the address of that House to his Majesty, on the 6th of March, 1797 he motion was agreed to.—Mr. Wilberforce then moved for An account of the number of ships, with their tonnage, that had arrived from the coast of Africa, in the West-Indies, between the years 1783 and 1803, with the number of negroes imported, and also the number re-exported. Agreed to.
[COTTON MANUFACTURERS.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, lie had given notice of a motion for this day respecting the cotton manufacturers; it was a subject of great importance, and one to which the attention of the House had been for some time directed. Ill a concern of so extensive and
473
Mr. Rose
said, he wished that the attention of the House might be called to this subject, in order that there might be no farther delay. The act relating to the cotton manufacturers and their servants, originated in a petition from the journeymen weavers and their masters, for the purpose of settling the disputes which had arisen between them. The bill was depending a long time, and no objection was made to it. When, however, the bill was passed and was to be carried into execution, the masters took a most extraordinary way to get rid of its operation. By the provisions of the bill an arbitrator was to be appointed to decide the disputes between the masters and journeymen: some of the masters, however,
474
[IRISH BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]—
Mr. Carry
rose to move the order of the day for the House to resolve itself Into a Committee upon the Irish bank restriction bill.—On the motion being put that the Speaker do now leave the chair,
Lord Archibald Hamilton
rose to recall the attention of the House to the notice he had given on a former day, of his intention to move the introduction of a clause, imposing an obligation on the Directors of the Bank of Ireland to restrain the further issues of notes—The noble lord then proceeded to state, that it was not his intention now to propose the clause to which he had alluded. He had made it his business to examine into the subject with the greatest care, and he had endeavoured to ascertain the sentiments of persons the best informed on matters connected with the situation of Ireland; and the result, of his inquiries had been, a conviction that it would, for the present, be expedient not to press the motion. He begged leave, however, to be indulged with making a few observations, to shew that he had not taken up the idea without due consideration, or without endeavouring to avail himself of every means of correct knowledge on a subject of such was importance and in
475
l.
l.
476
l.
l.
Mr. Carry
applauded in the highest terms
477
478
479
Lord Henry Petty,
in a maiden speech, delivered his sentiments on the subject before the House to the following purport. He was convinced that his noble friend who introduced the subject was perfectly correct in the observations which he had made on the motion for going into the Committee, and thought him entitled to the thanks of the House for the manner in which he had brought it under consideration. Ho allowed, that the amount of the issues of paper money by the Bank, of Ireland was not itself a lair criterion, of judging of the propriety of this increased circulation. It was, however, a circumstance which could not fail to excite surprise, and certainly loudly demanded inquiry, that the issues of paper by the Bank of Ireland had been five times greater since the restriction bill had been passed than they previously were, whereas the issues by the Bank of England had, in proportion to the capital, increased only in the proportion of one-filth beyond what they were when the act was passed. It might be true, that the directors of the Bank of Ireland might not hold themselves subject to responsibility for this extraordinary increase of their paper; but, surely, that House was responsible, after committing to these directors a power as extensive as ever was committed to a public body, the power of manufacturing paper for national circulation. This was indeed a great delagation of authority, for all economists agreed that money was power. When such powers were delegated, it was, undoubtedly, the duty of Parliament, to see in what manner they were exerted, to ascertain what were the evils connected with the system on which they acted, and to adopt such remedies as appeared most adapted to their situation. He did not mean to say that this was a subject to be entered on rashly, or that the investigation of it did not require the utmost temperance and moderation. Still, however, he had no difficulty in declaring, that the discussion of it was highly expedient, and that this discussion might be attended with the most beneficial effects. It was a subject
480
Mr. Vansittart
professed, on the part of His Majesty's ministers, the utmost readiness to adopt any measure that might appear calculated to remove the evil complained of. The noble lords themselves who lamented it so strongly, and who had pointed it out so-forcibly, suggested no remedy which was likely to be practical or effectual.
481
Mr. Foster
expresed great satisfaction at the manner in which the affairs of Ireland had been taken up by the two noble lords who had spoken in the course of the bebate. With regard to the bill before the House, it was so necessary a consequence of the restriction bill, that he considered it impossible not to enact it. At the same time he could not help poking out some of the effects which it naturally produced in Ireland. The scarcity of specie in Ireland was well known: they had no gold in circulation but what was bought at a premium; silver there was none, He did not believe there was one real shilling to be found from one end of Ireland to the other; there was even a scarcity of brass, The effect which this want of gold produced upon trade was obvious. In the north of Ireland where payments were made ad in gold, it was necessary to purchase guineas at a premium of 2s. 4d. which was above 10 per cent. The linen manufacturers could; only buy their materials with guineas for which they paid this enormous price, which they were of course obliged to lay upon the price of their manufactures; this would render them unable to meet foreigners in foreign markets, and if some remedy was not administered the trade could not stand, In addition to all this, there was a duty of 4 per cent, upon the importation of the article. Another effect this measure had was upon the exchange of Ireland: this certainly was not a very easy subject to investigate, but it undoubtedly was the duty of Parliament to enter, as soon as possible, into an investigation into the state of the circulation in Ireland. He knew Parliament could not remedy this evil by a law, but it there were any artificial causes operating to produce this effect, they surely might be got rid of. He sincerely hoped the subject would be taken up, particularly by some gentlemen on the treasury bench, and he was sure the result would be favourable to the trade of Ireland, and consequently to the trade of the empire.
Mr. H. Thornton
said, this subject was certainly of great importance, but at the, same tune, he thought it was move simple than gentlemen in general seemed to imagine. It appeared to him clear, that the excess of paper circulation was the cause of the bad stale of exchange in that country. It had been stated in the. course of the debate, that there vas a difference of no less than ten per cent, in the exchange between different parts of Ireland, and it had been stated, that gold was purchased in the north, at a premium of ten per cent., and he was authorized to take this for granted, as it had
482
Lord Castlereagh
would make but a few observations, in reply to what had fallen from the hon. member who had just sat down. It seemed to be the opinion, on all sides of the House, that the measure before it should be passed into a law, as the restriction of the issues of specie in England rendered a similar restriction unavoidable in Ireland. He did not, however, consider the subjects which had been introduced into the discussion, as at all connected with the limitation of the operation of the measure. They formed a question which might be taken up as a subject of separate inquiry, if the investiga-
483
484
Mr. Foster,
in explanation, staled, that the linen bleachers were obliged to give 2s. 4d. for every guinea, in order to have gold for payment to the linen weavers, and this amounted to 10 per cent, on the manufacture, more than before the restriction. He should mention a fact in the recollection of the noble lord, which would illustrate that observation. About four months ago, the linen manufacturers held a meeting at Armagh, which they afterwards adjourned to Dungannon, for the purpose of bringing bank of Ireland notes into circulation, in which they had failed, though the meeting had been attended by above one hundred of the most respectable manufacturers, and they had agreed unanimously in their resolution, to remove this incumbrance of ten per cent, over and above the four per cent, on exportation. This charge must unavoidably affect the foreign markets, for while Irish manufacturers continued subject to it, there can
485
to
Lord Castlereagh,
in explanation said, that the loss sustained by the linen manufacturer of Ireland, in consequence of being obliged to pay a premium of 2s. 4d. for a guinea, was somewhat ideal, as he was enabled to indemnity himself for that loss, by drawing upon his credit either at Dublin or London.
Mr. Curry,
in explanation, said, that his Majesty's ministers had not been wanting in their duty with respect to the circulation of Ireland, as with their concurrence he brought in a bill last session to put a stop to the circulation of what were called silver notes in that country. In order, however, to give the Irish members an opportunity of discussing the subject, the bill was not to take effect till the first of January in the present year. The members from that country were, however, precluded from attending by their military duties, in consequence or which a bill was brought in, in the present session, to suspend the operations of the former bill, in order to give the Irish members an opportunity of amply and fully discussing the state of the circulation in Ireland.
Mr. Johnson
meant merely to point out one fact which would put down completely all the ingenuity which the noble lord (Castlereagh) had employed to get rid of the remark of the hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Thornton), that the excessive issue of paper had depreciated so greatly its value in Ireland. If the noble lord's statement were just, then it would follow, that gold had risen as paper had fallen, and 5 per cent, would be the proportion in both cases. Bullion, which might
486
Lord Castlereagh
denied that he had fixed any proportion. He had only maintained, that there were grounds to suppose the discount, or rate of exchange, was attributable to two causes, the diminished value of paper, and the increased value of coin. If gold is coined, as it certainly might be, from bullion, then must they come here to find the market price of bullion. This he believed to be above the standard coin of the country. To this price, such as it might be, must be added the expense of coining and carriage.
Lord Dunlo
entered his protest against the suggestion of the hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Johnson), that the duration of the measure should be limited to a shorter period than was proposed. He knew not where the hon. gent, had learned that bullion could be conveyed to Ireland at so small an expense. He remembered a transaction some time since, when considerable difficulty was felt on an occasion of procuring part of a loan from this country, before a contract for the conveyance of the bullion could be effected. Three per cent, had, in some instances, been refused by several monied persons, though the contract had been afterwards concluded at two per cent. Being on his legs, he congratulated the House on the temper and moderation with which the discussion had been continued, and he trusted that the matter would not rest there, but that a Select Committee would be appointed to investigate it thoroughly. When that should be undertaken, he hoped that the investigation would be general, and comprehend the silver coinage; for he concurred with his right hon. friend, that there was not a single genuine mint shilling in Ireland. He thought that the act of last session for prohibiting the issue of silver, or small notes, had been judiciously suspended, because the responsibility of bankers was a better security to the public, than the base coin in circulation.
Mr. Alexander
agreed that the silver currency was wretched. Considerable inconvenience had been felt from the circum-
487
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 14, 1804.
Several witnesses were examined for the Claimant on the Zouche Peerage—other witnesses were sworn, and the farther consideration of the claim was deferred till Thursday.—Certain accounts relative to the issues of Irish Hank Taper were laid on the table, by Lord Hawkesbury; which, on the motion of Lord King, were ordered to be printed.—Adjourned till Thursday,
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 14, 1804.
[MINUTES].—
Sir W. Pulteney presented a petition from the governors and directors of the Bank of Scotland, praying for leave to bring in a bill to enable that Bank to augment its capital.—Referred to a committee.—The. honourable H. Lascelles presented a petition from the woollen cloth manufactures of the county of York, complaining that they did not enjoy the advantages of those of Gloucester, and praying to be put on the same footing with those of that country.—Referred to a committee.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the Irish Bank Restriction Bill, which was agreed to. The amendments were accordingly ordered to be engrossed, and the
488
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 15, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
A ballot took place this day for a committee to try the merits of the petition, complaining of an undue return for the Borough of Aylesbury in Buckinghamshire. The following members were appointed: Sir J. D. King, Bart.; Sir W. Lemon, Bart.; G. T. Stewart, Esq.; F.J. Browne,: Esq.; J. Smith, Esq. of Wendover; Sir G. Cornewall, Bart.; John Hammett, Esq.; Sir Jacob Astley, Bart.; Pascoe Grenfell, Esq.; Sir H. Iuglis, bart.; John Buller, Esq.; Lord Ossulston; Ed. B. Portman, Esq.—Those gentlemen having, pursuant to the Speakers direction, retired to choose two nominees, returned the following names:—Sir M. B. Folkes, Bart.; C. W. Wynne, Esq.—The committee proceeded to business forthwith.—Mr. Secretary Yorke presented a genera! abstract of the several sub-division returns of the volunteers, under the act of the 43d of his Majesty. Ordered to lie on the I table.—iir Jacob Astley presented a petition j from the land owners, barley growers and malsters of the county of Norfolk against the additional malt duties. Ordered to lie on the
489
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 16, 1804.
The House resolved itself into a committee of privileges; and Lord Walsingham having taken the chair, the consideration of Sir Cecil Bishop's claim to the Zouche Peerage was resumed.—Several witnesses were examined in support thereof, and Mr. Cazely addressed the committee at some length on behalf of the claimant.—Their lordships adjourned the further consideration of the case till Tuesday next.—The House then resumed, and the space below the bar was cleared while prayers were reading.—During the time of the exclusion of strangers, Lord Grenville, we understand, moved that the order for summoning the House, relative to his intended motion of to-morrow, respecting the paper circulation as connected with the general defence of the country, be discharged, and the order was discharged accordingly.—The hearing of the Appeal Cause, Graham
v.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 16, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
At half past three o'clock, the House proceeded to ballot for a committee, to try the merits of the petition complaining of an undue election for Maiden. The
490
[GREENLAND FISHERY.]—
Mr. Vansittart
moved the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a committee to consider of the acts relative to the Greenland Fishery. The House having resolved itsef into a committee, Mr. Vansittart said, that a bounty was always granted to the Owners of ships employed in the Greenland Fishery in time of peace, upon condition of their having a certain number of British seamen on board; this was done with a view to encourage the nursery of British seamen; but in time of war the case was very different, and as it was now expedient that as many men should be got for the royal navy as possible, he should move therefore, that the chairman be directed to move for leave to bring in a bill to enable vessels employed in the Greenland Fishery to complete their number of seamen at different ports during the present season.—The motion was agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 17,
The House forwarded the private bills on the table, and, at half past three o'clock, adjourned till Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 17, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
The following members
491
[IRISH INSURRECTION.]—
Sir J. Wrottesley
rose, and adverting to the notice he had given of his intention to submit a motion to the House on Monday next, for the production of certain papers respecting the insurrection which took place in Dublin on the 23d of July last, observed, that this subject was not so pressing in point of time as to induce him to urge it, under the present circumstances, and he would therefore postpone it
sine die;
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 20, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Counsel were finally heard relative to the Scotch Appeal, Graham
v.
492
[CHOLMONDELEY ESTATE BILL.]—
The order of the day was then read for summoning their lordships upon the occasion of the second reading of Earl Cholmondeley's Estate Bill.
The Lord Chancellor
quitted the woolsack, and made several observations upon the peculiar nature of such Bills as that before the House, and the usage of their lordships' proceedings, accompanied with a few remarks upon the special case. In the course of these observations, the noble and learned lord suggested the propriety of the introduction of a clause into the Bill, for reserving the rights of the last remainder man until the period when he shall be capable of giving his consent.
Lord Alvanley
made a few observations upon the case, and announced his entire concurrence with what fell from the noble and learned lord. He took occasion to applaud the care and attention which had been usually paid by noble lords who had sat upon the woolsack to such proceedings as that in question.—The Bill was then read a second time; and on the motion of Lord Walsingham, committed for to-morrow fort night. Some routine business was then disposed of, and their lordships adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 20, 1804.
[MINUTES]—
Mr. St. John, from the Committee appointed to try and determine the merits of the Honiton Election, reported that the Sitting Member, George Shum, Esq. was duly elected, and that the petition was not frivolous and vexatious.—Mr. Steele reported from the Committee appointed to try and determine the merits of the Durham Election, that R. Wharton, Esq. was not duly elected; that the Election, as far as related to the said R. Wharton, was void, and that neither the petition nor the opposition was frivolous or vixatious.—Anew writ was ordered for Durham, in the room of the said R. Wharton, Esq.—Mr. Secretary Yorke moved that there be laid before the House, an account of such volunteer corps in Great Britain as have been placed upon permanent pay and duty since November, 1803. Ordered.—Mr. Secretary Yorke afterwards laid the account before the House; which was ordered to be printed.—Mr. Creevey rose to postpone the motion which he had given notice of for tomorrow, till some day next week, but he hoped that no long time would elapse before he had an opportunity of calling the serious
493
[IRISH BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]—
Mr. Corry
moved the order of the day for the third reading of the Irish Bank Restriction Bill.
Lord Archibald Hamilton
said, that after the discussion which had taken place the last time the Bill was before the House, he felt himself bound to say a few words before its final departure to the other House. Nothing certainly could be greater than the importance of this measure, not only as affecting Ireland, but because it shewed what must be the consequence in this country, if the restriction should continue to any great length of time. If he had sat silent upon this occasion, it might be supposed that his opinion had been altered by the discussion which took place on the second reading; but although he paid every attention to the arguments which were used on that occasion, his sentiments still remained unchanged. It had been most clearly proved, that there was a great depreciation in the value of paper in Ireland, and that specie could only be procured with great difficulty and at a large premium: it had been urged, that the scarcity of guineas arose rather from factitious than from real causes; this be was inclined not to believe, for it was surely more probable that paper should be depreciated, from so great a quantity having been issued, than that the price of gold should have risen so much beyond its real value. Before he sat down, he wished to mention one or two points to which he hoped he should receive an answer, or at least some explanation from the right hon. gent. opposite him (Mr. Corry.) The rate of exchange had been for some time past increasing against Ireland, and had risen so high as 19½ per cent. Notwithstanding this, it had been asserted, that the Bank of Ireland last year had given a bonus of 5 per cent, to the proprietors of bank stock: this was a subject which certainly required some explanation. There was another circumstance which he had heard, from authority on which he placed
494
Mr. Corry
said, he should begin by adverting to what fell from the noble lord towards the latter end of his speech, viz. that certain officers under the Irish government being paid their salaries at par.—On this point he would give the noble lord the most full and explicit information in his power; if the noble lord had done him the honour to have acquainted him with his intention of requiring information upon that subject, he would have taken care that he should have a most distinct and precise answer. At present, however, he wished to state, that certain officers from Ireland, who were employed in this country in the discharge of their public duty, were paid their salaries at par; that the Treasury of Ireland having money in this country, had given orders for the payment of those who were officially employed in this, country, including himself, the Lords of the Treasury, and the inferior officers, who were obliged to attend here during the session of Parliament, in the manner that had been stated. This practice had originated with the Union, and had been continued since, without any observation having been made upon it. With regard to what the noble lord
495
Lord A. Hamilton.
In explanation, disclaimed any improper motives in the observations he had thrown out.
Mr. Curwen
said, that the interference of Parliament was certainly necessary to put an end to this evil, which was of very great magnitude. There appeared to him various ways in which it might be done: the two countries being united, he saw no reason why the bunks should not be united; or a bill might be passed to limit the circulation of paper in Ireland. These, certainly, were delicate measures, and required much consideration; but, with regard to the issue of private Bank paper in Ireland, which, was very great, he saw no reason why they should not be obliged to pay their notes in Bank of England paper.
496
Sir John Newport
said, the proposition of the boa. gent. was the most extraordinary he had ever heard; if his object was to put a stop lo all the private Banks in Ireland, it would certainly be a very efficacious way of doing it; because it could not be supposed that an Irish banker, who issued his notes at par, could pay those notes the next day in Bank: of England paper, at a loss of 18 or 19 per cent. But he did not agree with those, gentlemen, who attributed the balance of exchange against Ireland entirely to the restriction on the Bank of Ireland. If they would look back to the years 1795 and 1796, they would had that the exchange was very high against Ireland, although there was then no restriction on payment in specie. The cause of this balance would perhaps be more readily found in the situation of the trade of Ireland with this country. Gentleman forgot when they spoke upon this subject, the large amount of the absentee rents drawn from Ireland. They forgot that since the union several large loans for that country had been negotiated in England, the interest of which, to the amount of one million and a hah, was annually drawn from Ireland. The absentee rents he estimated at little less than three millions, therefore the balance of trade in favour of Ireland must be great indeed, to supply such a continual drain. It had been said that the Bank of England had a greater controul over the private bankers than the Bank of Ireland had. This was a proposition he could not assent to, because the Bank of England had no other controul over the bankers except by refusing to discount their paper, and the Bank of Ireland had the same power. There was, however, a material difference between the situation of the two countries. In Ireland they had not only to combat with the general disposition of mankind to hoard specie, but there were in that country obvious causes which made that disposition almost universal. He did not speak of the North of Ireland, where fide was carried on almost all with specie, and the people had a confidence in each other, which, he was sorry to say, was not the case in the other provinces. The object of the lower classes of people in Ireland was to get specie, and the moment it was obtained it was buried, without the person so secreting it communicating it even to his wife or children, the consequence of this were, that immense quantities was lost. This disposition had produced the most fatal effects in Ireland. Tenants before they would pay their rents in specie would suffer themselves to be distrained and their cattle sold. They had no objection to pay in paper, because they
497
Mr. Faster
paid, he would not add much to the of the discussion: he rose in consequence of what had fallen from the noble lord, to whom he paid some high compliments. He was sorry he could hot undertake ill it which the noble lord had recommended to him. viz. to move for a committee inquire into this subject. He trusted, however, that all that had passed upon this and a former occasion, would impress upon ministers the necessity of speedily adopting some measure for the relief of that country, and lie was sure could be done much more effectually by the gentlemen on the Bench below him (the Treasury Bench) than by himself.—The bill was then read a third time; and on the motion "that the bill do pass,"
Mr. Foster
said, he did entertain a hope that ministers would have expressed an intention of taking up this subject, but as they remained silent, he felt the call upon him so imperiously, that he would, on a future day. bring the matter under the consideration of Parliament, at the same time he should be glad if ministers would take the task oat of his hands.
[IRISH MILITIA.]—
Mr. Foster
called the attention of the right hon. gent. on the Bench below him (Mr. Corry) to the subject of the Militia of Ireland. He stated circumstances to shew that the Militia now existing in Ireland had been raised under the provision of an Act of Parliament, which was made for the purpose of providing for the families of Militia-men in certain cases. Some of the balloted men he knew had received the bounties. In the month of August a bill was passed to regulate and model the mode of giving bounties, and for providing for the families of militiamen, by which two shillings a weak were allowed to the helpless father or helpless, mother of a militiaman, and to the brother or sister one shilling per week. The militia was raised while this bill was in force. Afterwards another bill was brought into Parliament, and passed, by which the father and mother had only one shilling per work, and the brother and sister nothing, He did not say any thing upon the question, whether the first allowance was too much or the second too little, but he said
498
Mr. Corry
observed, that this was a subject on which there was a great difference of opinion in the Parliament of Ireland when it was discussed, He hardly remembered a question that was more agitated than this had been: but with regard to any amendments in the Act, or any tiling that might be done by way of alteration in that respect, he thought it was natural to postpone it until the Irish members were able to attend the House. Such he had thought, and did still think, the proper course in such a case as this. Whatever there was in his matter that required consideration, he was sure that his Majesty's ministers would concur with tie right hon. gent. who had now mentioned IT, ill giving it the most effectual attention; bit in the absence of most of the members for Ireland, who were attending their military duly, he should not think it respectful to them to discuss it.
Mr. Foster
thought the right hon. gent. had misconceived his meaning. He did net desire to enter on the merits of the case, or propose a discussion of it in the House, either one way or the other; what he wished was, only that ministers would remedy an apparent breach of faith,
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 21, 1804.
Their Lordships, pursuant to order, re-
499
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 21, 1804.
This day was appointed for two ballots for Committees to try the merits of petitions complaining of undue elections for Carrickfergus and Sudbury, but there being only 88 members present at four o'clock, an adjournment of course took place till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 22, 1804.
Lord Malmesbury was introduced, and took his seat as Earl Malmesbury. He was introduced between Earls Camden and Ux-bridge.—The Bishop of Clyne took the oaths and his seat.—Witnesses were sworn in the West-India Dock Bill.—Lingham's Divorce Bill was read a tiret time, Adjourned.
500
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 22, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Two ballots stood for this day, but the one for Carrickfergns was only obtained.—About five o'clock Mr. White appeared at the bar with the following list of names of members chosen to form the Committee:—Sir Wrottesley, Bart. T. Brooke, Esq. Right Hon. G. Rose, W. Praed, Esq. Sir J. Honeywood, W. Smith, J. Jekyll, Esq, P. C. Bruce, Isq. C. Chapman, Esq. J. Jarvis, Esq. G. Johnstone, Esq. D. Jephson, Esq. J. H. Durand, Esq. Nominees; H. Alexander, Esq. J. Graham, Esq.: being regularly sworn, the Committee retired to fix the time and place for their proceedings.—The second reading of the Volunteer bill was, on the motion of Mr. Secretary Yorke, deferred till Monday.—The Sheriff of London presented a petition from the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, and Common Council, praying for leave to bring in a bill to explain and amend the powers granted by a former act, authorising the establishment of a coal market. The petition was referred to a Committee.—Dr. Duigenan, agreeably to his notice on a former day, rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to fix the age for receiving priests orders in Ireland. The learned member made a few observations to shew the necessity of the measure. Frequent impositions took place as the law now stood. He knew of several instances where, by a fraud on the bishops, persons much under the age required by the rubrics ordination ought to be obtained. He was proceeding to illustrate this position, when the Speaker suggested that the motion ought regularly to originate in a committee. Alter a few words of explanation betwixt Mr. Francis and Dr, Duigenan, the suggestion of the Speaker was adopted, and the House agreed to resolve into the Committee to-morrow.—Mr. Blackburn presented a petition from the: journeymen callico printers of Lancashire, Derby-hire, Cheshire, and certain counties of Sea land, complaining of the conduct of the masters in the said trade, in taking such an excessive number of apprentices as to throw the greater part of the journeymen cut at employment. The petition stated, that this multiplication of apprentices commenced about the year 1792 and that since then the proportion of apprentices to journey-men has been generally not less than as 70 to 30. That at one house in Lancashire, 197 apprentices were reared in the course of 10 years, and that during that period no more than 95 persons, journeymen and apprentices included, were at any one time employed.
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Therefore this house reared 102 persons more than it could find employment for. The petition complained of other hardships suffered by the journeymen in the said trade, and stated that it was a general practice among the masters to take apprentices with-out any indentures, and that the revenue upon stamps was thus materially defrauded. The petition was referred to a Private Committee.—Col. Howard presented a petition from certain merchants in London and Ports-mouth, and proprietors of lands in Surrey, Sussex, and Hants, praying for leave to bring in a bill, enabling them to raise a sum of money for the formation of a canal betwixt London and Portsmouth. The petition was referred to a Committee.—sir W. Geary brought in the Marine Fishing Society Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time tomorrow.—A petition was presented from the magistrates and landholders of Leicestershire, praying for leave to bring in a bill to establish a new poor-rate in that county. The petition was referred to a Committee.—Several private petitions were brought in, and referred to Committees without opposition—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 23.1804
The Earl of Arran's Estate Bill was read a first time.—The other hills on the table were forwarded. Adjourned till to morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 23.1804
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. White appeared at the bar with the following list of names on the reduced list for the Sudbury Election Committee: The Flight Hon. Gen. Fitzpatrick, G. Shum, Esq. Wm. Chute, Esq. The Hon. G. Walpole, J. Fuller, Esq. Wm. Manning, Esq. J. C. Curwen, Esq. Lord Eustou, Bryan Cooke, Esq. H. Joliffe, Esq, R. Deverel, Esq. C. Morgan, Esq. Sir W. Heathcote, Bart. Nominees, R. Adair, Esq. R, Hurst, Esq. Those gentlemen having been sworn, at the table, withdrew into the Committee Room to enter upon an examination of the merits of the petition they have to try.—Mr. White then presented at the bar of the House the names of the following gentlemen, who were chosen as a Select Committee on the Minehead Election Petition: Sir R. Barclay, F. Gregor, Esq. J. Langham, Esq. D. Giles. Esq. G. Porter, Esq. J. Blackburn, Esq. (of Lancashire) A, Mackenzie
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HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 24.1804
Counsel were heard relative to the appeal cause from the Court of Chancery in Ireland, Thomas Garde, Esq. and others v. Wm. Burton, Esq. Mr. Mansfield spoke at considerable length as leading counsel for the appellants. The farther hearing of the case was adjourned till Tuesday next.—The several bills before the House, chiefly of a private nature, were forwarded in their respective stages, and some private business was disposed of. The House then adjourned till Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 24.1804
[MINUTES.]—
Sir G. Cornwall brought up a report from the Committee appointed to try the Aylesbury Election, stating, that John Wilson one of the witnesses, had been guilty of prevarication and contradictory evidence in his deposition before the Committee. The report having been received, Sir G. Cornwall moved, that John Wilson be committed prisoner to Newgate for the
503
[IRISH CIRCULATION.]—
Mr. Foster ex peeled that the state of circulation in Ireland would have b-.'en made a subject of inquiry, and that some motion on that subject would have been made from a quarter that was best capable of giving it effect; but as he had been disappointed in that expectation, he would not hesitate any longer to take the business on himself. He therefore gave notice, that on Thursday next he would submit to the House a motion on that subject.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 27.1804
The bills upon the table were forwarded in their several stages.—The farther consideration of the appeal Thellussons
v.
v.
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 27.1804
[MINUTES.]—
The London Dock Improvement Bill was read a third time and passed.—Mr. Bankes reported the resolution of the Committee on the Hereford election, That John Scudamore, Esq. and Thomas Powell Symonds, Esq. were duly elected, and that the petition against their election was frivolous and vexatious.—Sir M. Ridley brought up a petition from the debtors confined in the gaol of Newcastle upon Tyne. Ordered lo be laid on the table.—Lord Henry Petty brought up the report of the Committee on the petition of the Sierra Leone Company, which was ordered to be laid upon the table and printed.—Mr. Hiley Addington moved, that the copy of the evidence taken before the Committee of last sessions appointed to inquire into the petition of the cotton manufacturers be referred to the Committee to whom the petition of said manufacturers was presented this present session. Ordered.—The Duke of York's Surrey Estate Bill was read a third time and passed.
[PROPERTY TAX.]—
Earl Temple
said, that as he observed the Secretary at War in his place, he rose for the purpose of putting a question to him, on, a subject which was highly interesting to a numerous and respectable body of men, and upon the answer which the Right Hon. Secretary made to; him would depend, whether or not he
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The Secretary at War
observed, that the noble lord had stated truly, that in the private answer he had returned to his lordship's enquiry upon this subject, he had explained, that being called upon to nominate the commissioners, whose business it was to tax the officers, his duty in this business was over. It the commissioners should be found to have exceeded their trust, the law was open to correct them; as far, however, as his information reached, he did not think any just ground of complaint could be laid against them. The tax, undoubtedly, could not commence till the officers' commissions were issued, and, at all events, complaints of this kind would be heard in the usual way of appeal, so that there could be no more reason for the interference of Parliament, with respect to the militia officers in particular, than with respect to the demand of the tax, as it affected the property of any other individuals. He concluded by disclaiming any idea of interference with the commissioners.
Earl Temple
repeated, that the specific ground of complaint was, that those officers, who were not commissioned until July last, were made liable to pay the lax from the 6th of April; and when appeals were made, the collectors had said, that a deduction would be allowed upon the ensuing half-yearly assessment. Such was the hardship upon the officers of which he complained; and that in the mean time an illegal tax was, in fact, levied upon them.
The Secretary at War
said, that he apprehended many officers had neglected to make their returns of income when first called upon; but undoubtedly those who had no commissions until June or July, were not to be charged with the income duty from the preceding April; and he was confident, that when the particulars off their several cases were taken into consideration, no illegality or species of oppression would be exercised against them.
Earl Temple
then gave notice that, in consequence of the answer and explanation given by the Secretary at War not proving satisfactory to him, it was his intention within two or three day's time, to move the appointment of a committee to take into consideration the conduct of collectors of the income tax, as far as respected the demands made upon the officers of militia.
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[HIS MAJESTY'S INDISPOSITION.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke
rose and moved the order of the day for the second reading of the bill for amending and consolidating the various acts relative to volunteers. On the question being put from the chair,
Sir Robert Lawley
rose and addressed the House as follows.—Sir; I rise to take upon; myself a most delicate and distressing duty, by calling the attention of die House to a subject, which I consider to be one of the highest importance and the deepest interest to the country. The House win perceive, that I allude to the much lamented indisposition of our beloved Sovereign. Ever since much the 14th of the present month, this House, in common with the public at large, have been in possession of the melancholy information that his Majesty has been confined by a dangerous and doubtful illness. It is rot my wish to enter, with any; degree of minuteness, into this most delicate and distressing subject; but I cannot help thinking, after the interval which has taken place, and after the reports of the physicians specially appointed to declare to the public the state of his Majesty's health for the last two days, that Parliament has a right to expect some explicit communication. I cannot but consider such a communication necessary, in order to remove those distressing doubts which his Majesty's much deplored indisposition has created in every part of the country. Sir, I have a right to assume to myself, that that illness is of the most severe nature; and in the reports submitted to the public, no satisfactory ground of hope is held out that it will come to a speedy termination. Some direct, explicit communication is loudly called for, and this, as a member of Parliament, I think it my duty to require of ministers. Upon the answer which I shall receive to these few observations on this most interesting subject, I shall be guided, either in grounding upon it a specific motion, or in moving that this House do now adjourn.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—Sir; in answer to the question which the honourable baronet has thought it his duty to, put to his Majesty's ministers, I feel it incumbent upon me to say, that I have the happiness of being enabled to state to this House, that, in the opinion of his Majesty's confidential servants, founded upon the best information that can be obtained, such a communication as that required by the hon. baronet, could not it possibly answer any good purpose; and farther, that any pro-
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Sir Robert Lawley.
—Sir, I move, that this House do now adjourn.
Mr. Fox.
—I feel, Sir, that the subject introduced to the attention of the House is one of the highest interest and the most sacred importance. It is very far from my wish, in the course of my observations, to fail in that delicacy which it so strongly suggests. But, Sir, I should feel that I was deficient in duty to this House, deficient in duly to his Majesty, deficient in duty to the principles of the constitution, if I could bring myself to acquiesce in the answer which the right hon. gent., who just sit down, has thought fit to submit to our consideration. It does not accord with my opinions, to attach so great a degree of delicacy to this discussion, as some persons may wish to inculcate. There does not appear any material obstacle in the way of fair, liberal discussion, and it is with such a view of the subject, that I am desirous of laying before the House, the reasons which induce me to think the answer of the right hon. gent. altogether unsatisfactory. It will not, I conceive, Sir, be denied, that hitherto the House and the Public, know nothing of the lamented indisposition of his Majesty, except through die medium of those daily Reports which have been published by official authority. By these alone can we be guided. On these alone can any opinion be formed. But, Sir, how has the right hon. gent. proceeded in attempting this evening to convey any thing like information to the House? He has told us, that it is the opinion of his Majesty's confidential servants that no communication is necessary—that such a communication would be indecent—that it could be made the ground of no subsequent proceeding. On this most extraordinary declaration I wish to call the attention of the House, not only to common practice, but to what is the strict letter and spirit of the constitution. I have to say, then, that I know of no such persons as the King's confidential servants. They are a body utterly unknown in any constitutional view of the subject. I know, indeed, of a body of individuals more particularly employed in the executive government, but in this capacity alone can they be recognized.
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—Sir before I proceed to notice the other parts of
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Mr. Pitt.
—Sir; I had not the good fortune to be in the House when the hon. baronet made his motion, and I am not quite sure that I now perfectly understand what the object of it is. I have, however, been informed, that the hon. baronet has made a motion for an adjournment, and that the ground he assigns for it is, that no regular communication has been made to the House upon a subject which so much interests the feelings of all classes of the community. I confess, that whatever opinion I may entertain upon the whole of that critical and anxious situation in which the country is now placed, and a more critical and anxious one never existed in the history of this country, I can not think that the motion for an adjournment is one, which, in any possible view of the subject, can be either expedient or proper. I certainly do feel, that if, unfortunately, the moment should come, which I most earnestly hope will
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Mr. Windham,
I rise, Sir, to submit a few observations to the House, in consequence of what has fallen from different gentlemen in the course of this most interesting discussion. My right honourable friend who has just sat down, has argued this question, as if the adjournment proposed by the motion, was meant to take place for some time, and to suspend the Junctions of Parliament; but, assuredly, that is not the intention of the honourable baronet who made the motion; if it was, I certainly could not give it my support. The motion merely means, as I understand it, tin adjournment for this day.—Before, Sir, I proceed any further, I beg to return my thanks to the honourable baronet, who brought forward the present question. In making the motion which he has submitted to the House, he has performed a duty incumbent on every member of the House, but one which I am sorry to say, many of us would not have possessed sufficient fortitude to perform. For my own part, I am free to declare, that I should have left the House sorrowful and dejected, if the subject which
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
Sir; there are two points to which must beg the attention of the House. I rise for the purpose of denying that ever broached the doctrine which the hon. gent. who spoke last has attributed to me. I said that the argument of the hon. gent. opposite to me (Mr. Fox) seemed to imply, that there ought to be always an interference in that House whenever their was any supposed interruption in the personal exercise of the royal authority, but I never stated, that, if there was any delay on the part of his Majesty's ministers, the House was at all fettered in its discretion, or that the House might not, without any communication on their part, institute any proceeding which the House thought fit. The hon. gent. has also stated that I have set up my own opinion in opposition to his Majesty's physicians. All I can say on this part of the accusation against me is, that I have stated nothing as matter of speculation or opinion of my own, but upon the authority of the physicians. I wish to be distinctly understood here to restate, that there is not, at this time, any necessary suspension of such royal functions as it may be necessary for his Majesty to discharge at the present moment.
Mr. Canning,
—Sir I feel, in common with my right hon. friend over the way, that the hon. baronet who provoked this discussion is deserving of the thanks of the House and of the country, and I am sure he will have them for the motion he has made Whatever difference there may be as to the mode, there is every reason to be satisfied with what has been done. The effect of the motion has been to procure much informa-
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Mr. Grey.
—Sir; after what has been said by my hon. friend near me (Mr. Fox), and the right hon. gent. on the bench below (Mr. Windham), I should not have risen for any other purpose than to obtain an explanation of an ambiguous expression which has fallen from the right hon. gent. opposite (the Chancellor of the Exchequer); an expression which would have a dangerous tendency if the ambiguity were not explained. I have felt, I am sure, in common with every one present, the highest satisfaction at the improved state of health in which the House is given to understand that his Majesty is in; but this satisfaction base nevertheless, been damped by doubt and suspence. When it was stated that there was not any necessary suspension of the royal authority, as to such functions as it may be incumbent on his Majesty to discharge, the statement was qualified, as to such functions as extraordinary circumstances may render necessary. I wish the report had been more large, and less liable to be divided by distinctions: for I cannot conceive a royal authority competent to some things and not competent to others. If the royal authority is, in fact, competent to some duties, but not to all, dreadful indeed, as the right hon. gent. under the gallery (Mr. Pitt) has described it, is the responsibility which those who state themselves to be his Majesty's confidential ministers have assumed. If they think the royal authority in the present state of his Majesty's health, competent to some things, and incompetent to others; they, in fact, take every tiling upon themselves. On this ground it is that I wish for explanation, for without explanation the assurance that has been given is incomplete. It would have been more satisfactory if his Majesty's ministers had been enabled to state, as a ground of the assurance they have given, that his Majesty communicated with them in the usual way and if they had not given it as an interpretation of the report of the physicians, when the words of that report appear so remote from any such interpretation. On this ground it is, that I
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—Sir; I was in hopes that the observations which have fallen from the hon. gent. would have been prevented by what I stated. I meant distinctly to state, that there is not at this time any necessary suspension of the royal authority for any act which maybe necessary to be done.
Sir R. Lawley.
—I rise, Sir, to assure the House, that it was not from any motive of impatience that I made this motion. It was because I thought Parliament was placed in the most unconstitutional situation. In the mind of every person present, the circumstances, urgent and pressing as they were, of the critical situation in which the country stood, wire enhanced by any suspension of the royal authority; it was on this ground that introduced the present discussion. I thought the House ought to establish some mode, by which the discretion of ministers should be bounded in matters of such essential moment. It is materially necessary that they should not be left at large, with no other limit than what they choose to impose on themselves. I do not desire to enter further into the discussion at present: I am ready to withdraw my motion if it be the sense of the House that I ought to withdraw it; but at the same time I think Parliament will not discharge the duty which it owes to the country, and which the country expects, if, after fifteen days of dangerous illness, it does not obtain a more complete explanation of the actual state of his Majesty's health.—I Here the Speaker put the question for withdrawing the motion.
Mr. Grenville.
—Sir; I should be reluctant in such a moment to trespass upon the House, if it did not seem to me absolutely necessary to press more materially for the information which the question put by the hon. baronet has drawn forth from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The information that has been given, so far from relieving my mind, has excited sensations, which even my desire to comply with the wish of the House, in allowing the motion to be withdrawn, will not allow me to pass unnoticed. The distinct words the Chancellor of the Exchequer made use of were these, "There is not at present any necessary suspension of the royal functions for any act which may be necessary to be done."—Now, does this mean any thing else than that the Chancellor of the Exchequer thinks it competent to him to decide what the royal authority was to be ap-
530
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—Sir; I should have thought, that the answer which I gave to the hon. member on the opposite bench (Sir R. Lawley) would have precluded the necessity of the observations of the hon. gent. who has just sat down.
Mr. Grenville.
—I do not know, Sir, whether any other member is in the same situation with myself: but I protest, that every thing I hear in the nature of explanation, so far from elucidating, serves only to cloud what the House is so desirous to be distinctly informed of; and it appears to me from the whole of these explanation?, as they are called, that there is a constant design and endeavour to divert the attention of the Mouse from the conduct of ministers on the subject, and the attempt to divert it is made only because it will not bear discussion. I own I agree in the opinion of my right hon. friend near me (Mr. Windham), that the theory of the constitution requires that, whenever the royal authority is suspended, at that moment Parliament should be informed of the suspension, not for the purpose of immediately proceeding to form new arrangements to supply the suspension, but for the purpose of deciding whether or not it ought to proceed, and whether it is not for the safety of the country that some new step should be taken. I can easily conceive many cases in which, on such information, the discretion of Parliament would adjourn the consideration of the propriety of adopting any new step; but Parliament being informed of the circumstances, should hold in its own hands the power of deciding, and not suffer it to continue in the hand of those who having been appointed the confidential servants of the crown, when the royal functions were in full exercise, continue to hold their functions after the suspension, till Parliament decides on the propriety of some new arrangement. I think it the more necessary to make this distinction, as those with whom I have conversed on the subject, look upon a communication, when properly made, as necessarily to be followed up with immediate proceedings for a new arrangement. When I speak of a communication properly made, I do not conceive that those who have been appointed the servants of the crown, when the royal authority was in its full exercise, are the proper channel for such a communication. The proper mode is, in my opi-
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[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]—
Mr. Grenville
said, that his Majesty's ministers having determined to give the House the liberty of resuming the debate, which they themselves had thought proper so long to suspend, it became his duty to offer such remarks as occurred to him on the proposed second reading. When the bill had been introduced by the Secretary of State, a good deal was said of the hopes which M ere entertained of temper and impartiality in the discussion, and as a motive of inducement to that temper and impartiality, the importance of the measure was dwelt upon, and an appeal was made to the feelings of the House, as to the duty of being impartial on a measure, which the right hon. Secretary represented as so essential to the country. That appeal had obtained due attention from all those to whom it was directed. It was impossible, indeed, to look to the situation of the country, without being penetrated with the necessity of discussing, with temper, every great measure proposed for its defence. If it were not for that situation, it would not now be necessary for him to take up the time of the House. The danger of invasion was such, as it was not necessary for him to dwell upon. If the country was on the day of invasion, to calculate every thing that had been done for its preservation, he was at a loss to conceive, how the present ministers could be justified. Had every step that had been taken been applied in the best manner to secure the country r However happy the man would be who could persuade himself of the affirmative, he could not envy his feelings, if they be founded on the passing of the bill now before the House. In adverting to the papers he had moved for, relative to what was called the volunteer system, he should briefly notice the points which seemed to him most worthy of attention. Much difference of opinion prevailed on the employment of the volunteers. He was one of those who were not against the volunteers in one sense, nor for them in another. He was therefore sorry for these two general distinctions. He was for the volunteers, because he thought the true and genuine British spirit called forth by pressing danger, a necessary ingredient in the force and defence of the country. He would say more, that such an array of that spirit may be made, as with the aid of a proportionate regular army, would make this country impregna-
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Lord Ossulston
spoke at some length upon
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Mr. Secretary Yorke
complimented the noble lord upon the acquisition which the House would obtain from his talents. He perfectly agreed with the right hon. gent. (Mr. Grenville), that the introduction of the bill would afford an opportunity to discuss the great question of the volunteer system in all its branches, and which discussion no one would be more anxious to meet than himself. Though he agreed in this particular, he must express his difference of opinion with the right hon. gent. as to the application of his speech to the bill now before the House. He had paid great attention to that speech, and could not distinguish any one part which he could adapt to the bill, until he came towards the conclusion. He, therefore, should not follow the right hon. gent. through the windings and turnings which he had taken to arrive at the point, but proceed to that point immediately; and he must take occasion to lament that the House had been so often troubled upon the occasion. The greater part of the right hon. gentleman's speech, was composed of hyper-criticisms upon a variety of circular letters, which did not apply in the least to the present bill. He would merely state the outline of it to call gentlemen's attention back, and then he trusted it would be suffered to go to a committee, where every one would have an opportunity of delivering his opinion, and strikeout any thing which might eventually contribute to the general perfecting of the measure. The right hon. gent. had been arguing, as if he conceived the bill was introduced as one compleatly perfect, and adapted to answer every purpose for which it was intended. It certainly was not so introduced. It was impossible on a subject of such great and serious moment that it could be rendered perfect all at ones. He had never considered it so. Time, experience, and attention were the best ingredients to make it perfect. The right hon. gent. bad stated, that before the recess, ministers had promised to re-consider the subject fully. Undoubtedly, such a promise was made, and had been acted upon, but then it did not of necessity imply a direct and positive pledge to bring a measure forward, which, in its formation, should be perfectly new. Every attention had been given on his part; and, the more he considered, the more he was convinced, that the less he attempted to do towards making the measure perfect the better, as it could
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bonâ fide
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Mr. Pitt.
—Sir; from the opinion of the right hon. secretary of state, that this discussion should be confined within narrow limits, and should apply solely to the consideration of the measure immediately before the House, I decidedly differ; and with the sentiments of my right hon. friend on the lower bench (Mr. Windham) that we are now called upon to take into view every thing connected with the national defence, I entirely concur. Although the volunteer
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s.
s.
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esprit de corps
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Mr. Windham
was of opinion, that the bill was inadequate to the object which it professed to have in view, that it would not be productive of any real or lasting advantage, and that it would end in smoke. His right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) had defended the system, principally on the ground that it was particularly necessary at the present moment, when, from the urgency of the case, no measure of equal advantage could be devised. This was, however, in his opinion, by no means a decisive mode of arguing. We were not called on merely to provide for the exigency of the present moment, but to consider what would be the species of force which would be adequate to our future defence. The danger against which we were called on to provide, was not one which must infallibly assail us at the present moment. We could not prescribe the conduct of the enemy who threatened us; nor could we know whether the majestic preparations which he was making were brought to full maturity, and would be ready to attack us tomorrow, or for twelve months to come. The enemy by whom we were at present menaced, was undoubtedly one which we were called on by every tie to repel; and to do so with effect, and certainty of success, the whole population of the country, he thought, ought to be employed,—So far, therefore, he was an advocate for voluntary service; but he could not agree that the voluntary force to be employed ought to be of the nature contended for in the present bill. His right hon. friend had pointed out the danger of a sudden diminution of the volunteer establishment. He unquestionably did not wish that any precipitate step of that nature ought to be adopted. He agreed with his rt. hon. friend in thinking, that terror was not the mode of procuring a continuance of a voluntary offer of service, and, on that principle, he approved of the option given to volunteers to withdraw their services, as being the best means of encouraging their continuance. The conditions, however, with which that option was clogged were so unpalatable, that he was convinced the measure would not succeed, but that many would avail themselves of the option and withdraw. His great objection to the present volunteer system was the effect which it had in obstructing the recruiting for the army, which was only
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some
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virtue
excuseable irregularity,
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materiem superabit opus.
Lord Castleargh
said, he had heard nothing in the speech of the last right hon. gent, that differed materially from what he had urged so often before; and that with respect to the ill effects of the volunteer system on other branches of service, he had by no means in any respect established that point. As for the discipline of the volunteer corps, certainly there was no man who would contend for the propriety of attempting to give them all the perfection of regular troops, but, on the other hand, there was equal impropriety in being too lax and inattentive to their discipline. There was certainly a medium to be observed in such a case. On the
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levce en masse
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s,
Mr. Pitt
begged leave to say a very few words in explanation. He assured the noble lord that he should feel more happy in finding that every tiling practicable had been done in the line of naval defence, than that any of his apprehensions of another kind should be realized. But to be convinced of this, some further explanation than that just offered should be given. He thought the comparative statements which had been given did not proceed upon a fair principle: there certainly was no comparison between the first years of a war when the previous peace establishment had been only 18,000 men, and that in which it had been
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Mr. Wbitbread
said, at that late hour he should not trouble the House at much length. There were, however, some topics on which he was desirous on say a few words. The first and most important of these was the power, in the volunteer corps, of intermediately appointing their officers. He would nor call this a right. But he contended, they ought to have the power of recommending officers through the lords lieutenants, to his Majesty. Hs would venture to say, that all the volunteers, in offering their service, entertained the expectation of appointing their own officers in this manner. He then alluded to a late transaction concerning the Southwark volunteers, and said, he would declare plainly, that if the right honourable secretary of state proceeded to the extreme he threatened in this respect, he would lose the greater part of the volunteer force. The volunteer system was to supply the deficiency of the Defence Act. It was acknowledged by ministers, that the act was not practicable had it been attempted to be carried into effect: the volunteer system was, therefore, resorted to. But the House must see that the system was of frail texture, and, if it should crumble away, the country mast return to the measures of the Defence Act, inadequate to the necessity as they were acknowledged to be.—Mr. Whitbread next adverted to the pica of economy urged by ministers in behalf of the vounteer system. They ought not to attempt to impose upon the people, by telling them of its economy, when every man knows that it is more burthensome to the public than if a more effective force had been raised.—He
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Mr. Addbigton said accross the table, "The Militia"
Mr. Tierney
explained the circumstances which had occured in the Southwark corps. He said, that himself and his hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread) were in similar situations in many respects; they were both colonels, both had corps composed of their constituents, and both might be supposed desirous to stand well with them. The fact was, that one of the companies came to a resolution, declif-
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Mr. Fox
said, that it was not his intention to go at length into this question at present, there were a few points only on which he begged leave to touch; particularly as being in the nature of remarks on what had passed in the debate, they could not so well be brought forward on a future occasion. The right honourable gentleman under the gallery (Mr. Pitt) had alluded to the conduct of the admiralty; on that subject he was not at present prepared to give any opinion. He confessed that he was partial to this noble lord at the head of that department he admired his professional talents, and gratefully acknowledged his public services. Lord St. Vincent had all his good wishes, and on this account he most heartily wished him a better defender than Lord Castlereagh. That noble lord had defended the first lord of the admiralty, by a comparison with what had been done by former naval administrations. He talked of the navy in 1755, when in fact, the scale of naval force then was no more a standard of naval force now, than that of 1755 was to be measured by the navies of antiquity. The question was not, what, the naval strength of this country in any former war was, but what were the means, and what were the necessities of service, by which our exertions were to be regulated. It was not by referring to dates, and by summing up statements, that the first lord of the admiralty could be justified, nor was it on that ground, he was sure, that Lord St. Vincent would chuse to re this defence. He did not know where, or in what register, the noble lord might have found the arguments
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he should trouble the House, at that Fate period of the night, with a very few observations. The comparison made by his noble friend, respecting the noble lord at the head of the admiraltry, was only between the first year of the late, and the first year of the present war between the amount of the naval force in 1793 and 1803, and no farther. At the commencement of the present war, we had raised 40,000 seamen. As to marines, there were difficulties in raising them, that grew out of the means adopted for the defence of the kingdom. He admitted that species of force had gone on with languor, and that no landsmen had been raised. The number of sailors were therefore unusually great, and of landsmen unusually small but notwithstanding these, difficulties, he contended the exertions of the present were equal to those of former boards of admiralty; and if they were equal to those of the board of admiralty, in the last war, he should ask no other praise for them.—With respect to the right of resignation by volunteers, he denied that he had ever said that it did not attach to them. Had he been asked the question, he should have said, that the fact was, the question had never occurred to him; if it had, he should have said the right of resignation was the very essence of the volunteer system. The hon.
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Mr. Dent
hoped, that some better information would would have been given on the exertions of the admiralty, than Steel's Monthly Navy List.
Mr. Grey
hoped, that when the House should come to estimate the sufficiency or insufficiency of the measures adopted for the defence of the country, they should not be told to look to a comparison of the present with this or that year, but to the means in the hands of his Majesty's ministers. He was surprized to hear the right hon. gent, rest the defence of the board of admiralty upon the former of these two grounds; and he thought he gave a proof of his candour, when he asserted that the board of admiralty ought to be tried by the state of the country, compared with the means in possession of government, and not by any other rule. The right hon. gent, had apologised for our naval force being lower than it ought to have been, an account of their being few landsmen. He feared, therefore, that the volunteer system was defective, as interfering with our naval defence, which was of paramount importance to the country. Upon the subject of the attorney general's opinion, the right; hon. gent, had asked what would have been said of ministers should they have concealed it? To this he should simply answer, that there was no occasion to suffer that opinion to be acted upon to the great hardship and inconvenience of innocent individuals. If ministers thought it wrong, as they now confessed, instead of circulating, they should have remedied. They had an opportunity; to do so, for upon the occasion of the bill alluded to, he said it was easy for them to have added a clause to remove that which they now acknowledge to have been a hardship, and contrary to the idea of what the law ought to be. He should not, however, at that late hour, go at length into the question. He hoped, however, that a serious inquiry would be made into the state of our preparations for defence. We had been nearly 12 months at war, but that was not the whole time that must be fairly allowed for preparation. It was admitted that the period that preceded it, was only a suspicious truce, and consequently requiring means and precautions for the safety of the country. Upon I such inquiry he feared our situation, though it might not afford ground for serious alarm and apprehension, would not be found of that strength and security which he had a right to expect.
Captain Markham
said, he had heard only
567
[IRISK INSURRECTION.]—
Sir John Wrottesley
rose, to give notice, that he should, on Wednesday se'nnight, move for the production of papers respecting the conduct of the Irish government in the late rebellion in that country Having waived his former notice, became necessary for him now to renew it.—The other orders of the day were then read and dispoved of.—Adjourned at four o'clock on Tuesday morning.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 28, 1804
Counsel was heard in continuation relative to the Irish appeal, Garde
v
The bills upon the table were forwarded in their respective stages.—Adjourned till tomorrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday February 28, 1804
This day was appointed for two ballots for committees, 10 try the merits of petitions complaining of undue elections for London and Coventry, but there being only 83 members present at 4 o'clock, an adjournment of course took place till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 29, 1804
[MINUTES.]—
Counsel were further heard relative to the Irish appeal, Garde
v.
568
[IRISH PENSIONS AND SALARIES.]—
Lord King
rose to call the attention of the House to a circumstance which he deemed of great importance, and well worthy the notice of Parliament. Pie alluded to the practice which prevailed of paying certain officers under the government of Ireland their salaries at par in this part of he United Kingdom; of this he spoke in terms of disapprobation, principally as an application of a part of the revenues of Ireland, without the sanction or concurrence of Parliament. He adverted to the very unfavourable state of the exchange against Ireland, which was an additional reason for the proceeding in question being a proper subject of*investigation. He also alluded to the bill for continuing the restriction upon the Bank of Ireland then before the other House of Parliament, and intimated, that as he felt it his duty to call the attention of their lordships to that subject, he expressed his hope that it would not be hurried in its progress through that House. The noble lord concluded by moving, That an account be laid before the House of all persons and salaries chargeable on the revenues of Ireland, and paid at par in this country.
The Earl of Limerick
shortly expressed his difference in opinion from the noble lord on the subject, and stated, that when the account moved for should come before the House, he had no doubt of being able satisfactorily to justify the proceeding in question to their lordships.
The Earl of Suffolk
took the opportunity to express his surprise, that accounts, which be had moved for so long since as two years, should not be yet laid before the House. He alluded to the accounts of the proceeds of old naval stores, the amount of which, in all probability, was very considerable, and the disposition thereof, he contended it was proper it should be known to Parliament.
Lord Hawkesbury
expressed his readiness to afford every practicable explanation on the topic; touched upon by the noble earl, but he was then uninformed upon the subject; not having had the honour of a seat in that House at the remote period mentioned, he could not tell what steps had been taken in consequence of the noble earl's motion,
The Earl of Suffolk
shortly explained, and observed, that there was another noble Secretary of Stale present with respect
569
Lord Hobart
observed, that the topic alluded to, had been rather inopportunely mentioned, as the question regularly before the House related to certain salaries and pensions chargeable on the revenues of Ireland; this their lordships must all see, had nothing to do the the proceeds of old naval store. However, with respect to the desired explanation, he had to remark, is, that the accounts in question had no connexion with his department, and 2dly, that if the application had been made directly to himself, he could only say, that he should cause inquiries to be made on the subject.—The question upon Lord King's motion was then put, and it was ordered accordingly.—The various bills before the House were then forwarded in their respective stages, after which their lordships adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 29, 1804
[MINUTES.]—
The House proceeded to ballot for two Committees, to try the merits of the petition complaining of undue elections for London and Coventry, in the former of which only they succeeded.—Sir G. Cornwall reported from the Committee appointed to try and determine the merits of the petition complaining of an undue election for Aylesbury, that Mr. Dupre was dury elected, that Mr. Bent was not duly elected, that the petitioner Mr. Freemantle was not duly elected, that the election, as far as related to Mr. Bent, was void, and the petitions were not frivolous and vexatious. He further reported, that such a system of bribery and corruption had been practised at the last election, that the Committee thought it incumbent upon them to submit it to the consideration of the House, in order that they might institute such proceedings as it might think proper.—The latter report was then read by the clerk, and on the motion of Sir Geo. Cornewall, ordered to be taken into consideration on next Monday fortnight, and to be printed.—Sir Geo. Cornewall then moved that the Minutes of evidence taken before the Committee should be laid upon the table Ordered.—He also moved that the Speaker should not issue any warrant for a new writ for Aylesbury until the report should have been taken into consideration. Ordered.—An account was ordered In be presented of the amount of interest received in Great-Britain on loans raised
570
[PERMANENT TAXES]—
Mr. Johnstone
rose for the purpose of obtaining for the House such information as he conceived was absolutely necessary for understanding that which his Majesty's ministers called An Account of the permanent taxes for the last year. The hon. member, after giving a short detail of the errors which he thought were to be found in the papers which lay on the table, concluded by moving for accounts of the produce of the permanent revenue, for the years en ling the 5th of January, 1802, 1803, and 1804., distinguishing the new taxes imposed each year, and the produce of them each quarter.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he did not see any possible objection to indulge the hon. gent, or any other member who wished it, with such accounts as were now moved for; he hoped, however, that although he did not now think it necessary to make any observations on the hon. member's observations, it would not be supposed, on that account, that he at all meant to accede to the accuracy of them.
Mr. Vansittart
made some observations on the subject, similar to those which had been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer; he, however, saw no reason for with-holding the said accounts.—The accounts were then ordered.
[BARRACKS.]—
Admiral Berkeley
adverted to an estimate upon the table relative to the expense of Barracks, which he said was not calculated to afford any information to the House, with respect to what was more materially wanted. In order therefore, to obtain that information, he moved for An Account of all barracks pulled down, sold or disposed of, with the number of men and horses they were capable of containing, since the ratification of the Treaty of Amiens, with the terms they were sold for 2dly, An Account of all barracks erected, or ordered to be erected since the same period, the places where. situated, and the number of men and horses; they were capable of containing, together with the dates of the orders for such erections. 3dly, An Account of the expense of erecting all such barracks, distinguish-
571
The Secretary at War
said, there was no objection on the part of government to give every information relative to the Barrack Department. With respect to the estimates complained of, the hon. admiral would find that it was rather more particular in its detail than those estimates had been on former occasions. As to the third motion of the hon. admiral, relative to the expenses of erecting barracks, the account could, not at present be made up, because the several accounts were now in a state of liquidation.—The accounts moved fur were then ordered, with a trifling transposition of word.
[IRISH SALARIES.]—
Lord A. Hamilton
gave notice of his intention to move to-morrow for an account of the sums paid in this country at par, to the officers of the Irish government.
Mr. Corry
said, he should have no objection to the motion. He then adverted to an order which had dropped, in consequence of a sufficient number of members not attending on the preceding day to go to business, for a Committee on the acts relating to the Irish revenue. He would not attempt to pronounce whether it would be consistent with the proceedings of the House to take up the order of this day, but that there might be no doubt upon the subject, he wished to postpone it, trusting, however, that there would be no objection to his then moving, that the House should to-morrow resolve itself into a Committee upon these acts.—The motion was agreed to.
[IRISH BASN RESTRICTION BILL.]—
Mr. Elliot
called the attention of the House to the circumstance of the Irish Bank Restriction Bill, which had passed that House ten days since, and which had not, he understood, been yet carried to the Lords.
Mr. Alexander
said, that the delay had originated in a mistake.
[PROPERTY TAX.]—
Mr. Dent
asked, whether it was intended to bring in any bill to explain the Property Tax Act.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he was not aware of measure relating to the Property Tax being intended to be brought forward before t he Easter recess, except a bill to extend the time for hearing appeals.
572
Mr. Dent
made some other observations, but in so low a tone of voice that we could not distinctly hear them we understood them to relate to the liability of bankers to penalties under the bill as it at present stood.
The Chancellor Of the Exchequer
admitted the liability of the bankers, but observed, that no such penalties could be recoverable previous to the 5th of April, and it was under the consideration of government whether it would be most advisable to bring in an explanatory bill in the list instance, or to constitute a process for the recovery of such penalties, and then by a bill to stay proceedings. The House, therefore, would doubtless be of opinion, that no such penalties ought to be levied.
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLID ATION BILL.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a Committee on the Volunteer Bill. He expressed an opinion that as there were several amendments to make, and several clauses to bring up, it would be most advisable to go through those amendments and clauses, in order that the whole might be printed, and debate the principle, if it was thought necessary, on the report.—On the question being put for the Speaker's leaving the chair.
Mr. Francis
said, I rise, Sir, not so much with an intention to oppose your leaving the chair, as to delay it. We have time enough to discuss the provisions of this bill, even if they were, what I do not think they are, very material or very urgent. Other objects, infinitely more important and more pressing, seem to me to demand a previous consideration. They are not unconnected with the general purpose of the bill. On the contrary, they are essentially connected with it. A measure of national defence is brought before us. To know whether it is judiciously contrived, and likely to answer the purpose it professes, you must consider what your danger is; to understand your danger, you must look at the situation of the country in all its circumstances and relations. This is not a mere question of military defence against a foreign for, but whether our situation, on the whole, constitutes a state of national security, or extreme peril? I speak with greater anxiety and concern on my mind than I ever experienced in this House, because I seriously feel the truth of what others say, without feeling it so deeply as they ought to do. At least it so appears to me to be too much the habit of this House, and indeed of the public. We talk of our danger in very proper terms that it is imminent that the crisis
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via di mezzo
575
Colonel Craufurd.
— I rise, Sir, for the purpose of decidedly opposing the motion for your leaving the chair. When I consider the magnitude and importance of the subject to which this and the insignificance of the bill it life; when I consider, I say, the magnitude and importance of this subject, as immediately embracing the whole system of the irregular force of the country, and not remand but very materially affecting her 1guiar army, I do feel that un on such a subject (so great in itself, so exten-
576
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578
distant
such
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580
581
general
particular
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Reserve,
Irregulars.
real
very little
absolutely necessary
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regular
Regular Colonel;
regular colonels.
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585
one
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587
whole
effect,
forms;
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590
wholly
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592
since the commencement of the war.
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595
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597
598
direct
indirect
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direct
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601
General Maitland
said, there was much gallantry in the speech of the hon. member who had sat down, although there was not much novelty in it; but he confessed he heard much of that speech with very considerable regret and concern. In looking at the preparations of this country, he might have been led to suppose that the hon. member would have looked at them as a whole, instead of entering into a minute detail, and dwelling upon particular parts with a curiosity of criticism. He should have thought that he might have taken some pleasure in stating points which appeared to be favourable to this country in the present prospect of things, in the present contest; he should have thought some notice might have been taken of those things which were apparently to the disadvantage of the enemy—not a syllable of the army of France, but of its being an excellent army, headed by a man of uncommon genius and fortune, full of enthusiasm, &c, that they were an army of veterans, &c.; he should have thought it might have occured to that hon. officer that they were not all veterans; he should have thought that hon. officer might have stated, that among our own army there were some veterans competent to meeting those of France, or any other army in this world; he should have thought that the hon. officer would have had some pleasure in stating that of this mighty and boasted army of France, there were some parts composed of Italian and other conscripts; he should have thought it might have occurred to the hon. officer that the militia of this country, were equal and competent to meeting an equal number of any men; and that the hon. officer might have looked at the volunteers in a different point of view from that in which he did view them—that he would have found some consolation in reflecting that the mass of the volunteers of this country was a body of men preparing to fight for the King, the constitution, the laws, and the liberties of it, and that the hon. officer would have had some pleasure in reflecting on the contrast between such men and those conscripts of France, who were torn from their relations, fathers from their childern, and children from their parents, coming towards our shores in fetters. He should have thought that the hon. officer would have had some pleasure in expatiating on these facts but ha took no such view of the subject. The hon. officer had acted, he was bound to believe, from the
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Colonel Craufurd
said, that he could not have had the temerity to have staled some of those sentiments that the hon. general had attributed to him. He did not regard the volunteers as an uselsss body of men. He only thought that the irregular force of the country might have been better and less expensively called forth. The army of reserve he considered as an existing force between the regular and irregular strength of the country, and was of opinion that it should have been more attended to, while the irregular force might have been equally effective in any possible crisis, or perhaps more effective in its own place, by assuming Jess the appearance and attitude of soldiers without the reality. He thought, in fact, that the general mass of the coon try would have been better and more efficaciously employed by bringing into action another system perfectly different from that which had been pursued. He did not mean to say that this effect to which he alluded would have been produced by the difference of the sys
608
Admiral Berkeley
was induced to rise, from the introduction of an extraneous topic into the discussion, on which he felt it impossible for him to be silent as the crisis was I urgent. He was at a loss to know what connexion there was between the administration of the Admiralty and the volunteer system. As the subject had been mentioned, it was with reluctance he came forward, though on every question relating to the Admiralty it might be supposed by the House that he would state his opinion. That, however, he had hitherto studiously avoided, I because he had been bred under the noble lord who presided over that board, and felt a friendship and love for him, which made him abstain from any observations that might bear upon that noble lord. Whatever charges attached to the conduct of the Admiralty, he was sure that the noble lord was exempt from them, but he was equally certain that blame was imputable somewhere. The noble lord had been by indisposition rendered incapable of attending to the arduous; duties of his situation. How far sickness might have impaired the faculties of the noble lord he could not tell. The business had been left to unskilful hands. The hon. admiral had no hesitation in saying, that the naval preparations for the defence of the coat were not adequate to the purpose; and this opinion did not rest on his own judgment, but he could call to the bar I every naval officer, from the highest to the lowest, to confirm it. He could call on many I hon. friends in the House to prove that ministers had not attended to this subject. He could call on ministers themselves to prove I that representations had been made to them so early as August, September, and October last, since which time the coast might have been placed in a most formidable state of defence. The hon. General (Maitland), had defended the noble lord's statement of the situation of our navy by a comparison with certain periods of last war, but he might as well have compared a first rate of the present day with Noah's Ark. Why had he not compared it with the French, fleet? He should have been shewn its superiority by a comparison with her fishing
609
Captain Markham
rose for the purpose of making a few observations on what had fallen from the hon. admiral, in detailing matters totally irrelevant to the question before the House. If the Admiralty had been culpable, it would be more regular to bring a direct charge against it, than to bring the question forward in the uncandid manner in which it had been introduced.—It his language was not Parliamentary, he was very sorry for it; but he could not help feeling as he did on hearing the observations of the hon. admiral, who stated that the faculties of the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty had been impaired by illness. Indisposed he certainly had been, but his faculties were as strong as at the time lie taught the hon. admiral; how far the hon. admiral had improved by his instructions, he should prove hereafter. He had riot been in the habit of speaking in the House, but he was obliged to notice what had fallen from the hon. admiral. In consequence of his supposing the faculties of the nobles lord at the head of the Admiralty impaired, he must conclude that the fault lay with the "inexperienced persons" to whom the administration of the Admiralty devolved. As to his own experience, he should not say any
610
Colonel Eyre
said, he rose to express his regret, not unmixed with indiguation, at
611
Sir William Young
thought that the bill would interfere with the other acts for the defence of the country, and the dearest prerogatives of his Majesty. The dangers of the country were so imminent, that it had been well staled, the youngest in the House might not outlive them. He deprecated, therefore, every measure of expediency, on an occasion so serious and alarming. The hon. baronet then adverted to the different distinctions between the volunteers, those under the act of the 42d of the King, and those subsequently accepted. The former amounted to 90.941 those under the Defence Act to 245,110, and, by the exemptions, that proportion of the prime population of the empire was shut out from the army of reserve or militia. The consequence was, that the ballot fell upon the married man, which laid a heavy expense on their
612
Mr. Fuller
seemed to think the. volunteers, on their present system, preferable to armed peasantry; the dress of the volunteers being like the line he thought advantageous, as it would prevent the enemy's tirailleurs killing off officers from particular corps. He, however, objected to the Speaker's leaving the chair, as he thought the volunteer system well enough as it was; There was no necessity for the bill indeed, the Court of King's-Bench had sufficiently declared the law, and put the question on that hear to rest. If the bill went on, the people would fear there was something in its future operation that they now had no notion of. As the system at present existed, it was at length clearly understood.
Mr. Fox.
—I own, Sir, that I am much surprised at the language used by my hon. friend under the gallery (Gen. Maitland), and still more surprised at the very extraordinary sentiment with which the hon. gent, behind me (Col. Eyre) closed his speech. Of the latter I shall first take notice. The hon. gent, seems highly to disapprove of any thing in the shape of opposition to his Majesty's present ministers, and expresses an opinion that all parties should combine to support them, in order to second their endeavours for the national defence, and, in a word, that all should be unanimity for that object; but although the hon. gent, does so broadly assert that dissention prevails, and that means are used to embarrass the operations of government, I would call upon the hon. gent, to point out a single instance where any obstruction has been offered to the exertions of government to provide for our security. It is easy for any gent, to use a round assertion, but I challenge the hon. gent, to quote any case to justify the charge that any party has been backward to contribute its assistance to the government, whatever they may think of the ministers by whom the government is administered. AM, in fact, is, and has been, union for the public safety, from the moment that safety has been pronounced in danger. The people have, every where, pressed forward in the cause of their country, and their zeal has received no damp or check from any quarter, but from the ministers themselves and, without looking to the innumerable proofs of ardent and active exertion made by the gentlemen of that party to whom the
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"A little learning is a dangerous thing;"
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621
Mr. Pitt.
—Sir; differing as I do from the hon. gent, who spoke last, in many points respecting the volunteers, I nevertheless have the satisfaction to agree with him in many of the propositions which he has laid down. There is no one sentiment advanced by the hon. gent, to which I assent more cordially than in the necessity of adopting some measures to give a degree of consistency and permanence to our defensive force. It is undoubtedly true, that at present the great object ought to be to direct our efforts to meet the immediate danger with which the country is threatened; nothing, certainly, ought to be neglected in the first moment of alarm or danger, and all future considerations, however important, ought to give way to the present necessity and immediate danger. But that being provided for, we ought not to hesitate one moment in adopting the most effectual measures for rendering our defensive system permanent, and of providing against a recurrence of danger in future times. If we should prevent the enemy from effecting the invasion this year, and that should lead us into a false security, and encourage us to slacken our means of defence, it certainly must end in our total ruin. I am, therefore, happy to find the opinion so strongly inculcated by the hon. gent, that we ought not to be content with our present exertions alone. It is perfectly true, as that hon. gent, has slated, that although the natural impulse of a brave and loyal people has led them to make the greatest and most unparalleled exertions, which have removed ns from immediate danger, yet it is undoubtedly necessary to except measures to guard against that long, protracted, and lingering danger with which the enemy may threaten us. Because, the effect of deterring the enemy from making his attempt, by a demonstration of the force and spirit of the country, may have the effect of making us relax in our efforts, which might produce the most disastrous consequences, I therefore, think we
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623
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630
Mr. Fox,
in explanation, said, that the right hon. gent, had mistaken his argument. He did not say that we should rely upon an armed peasantry alone, but an armed peasantry, acting in aid of a regular army.
Mr. Windham,
said, that the principles and opinions which he formerly professed upon this subject, he still retained. They were confirmed by experience, as far as experience had gone, and had now, in every point, the sanction of the very high authority (Col. Craufurd's) which the House had just heard. He was anxious to recall this fact
631
assistance
prejudice
632
633
no harm.
no harm
634
Mr. Dent
said a few words in condemnation of ministers, which we could not distinctly hear.—The question was then put, that the Speaker do now leave the chair, which was carried without a division. Air. Yorke in consideration of the lateness of the hour, proposed, that the committee should only proceed pro forma, and proceed to-morrow with the discussion of the subject. The House was resumed, and progress being reported, it was agreed that the committee should sit again on Thursday.—The other orders of the day were then deferred, and the House adjourned at two o'clock.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 1, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Counsel were finally heard relative to the Irish appeal, Garden. Burton, viz. Mr. Mansfield, at considerable length, as counsel for the appellant in reply. After which their lordships adjourned the farther consideration till Monday se'nnight.—Mr. Alexander brought up from the Commons the Bank of Ireland Restriction Bill; and Mr. Vansittart presented the Greenland Whale Fishery Bill.—Lord Hawkesbury moved the first reading of the Bank of Ireland Restriction Bill, which proceeding accordingly took place, and subsequently for its being printed, which was also ordered.
[HIS MAJESTY'S INDISPOSITION.]—
His lordship then moved, that the bill be read a second time on Monday next.—On this question being put,
Lord King
rose, not, he said, for the purpose of opposing the motion of the noble Sec. of State, for he had no objection to deferring the discussion of the measure till that day: but he was induced, from the consideration of such a bill being before the House, and more especially by the circumstance of a bill of still greater importance being in its progress through the other House of Parliament, to require some information from ministers, relative to a subject of the greatest importance to that House and to the country. He alluded to the present state of the Sovereign's health; and he expressed his hope that in the present instance, the noble Sec. of State would be able to afford that consolatory information which was lately given in (he other House of Parliament, by a person high in his Majesty's councils: what he meant was, the declaration, that no necessary suspension of the royal functions
635
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that he could not conceive what regular or proper ground the noble lord could assume, on what might have taken place elsewhere, to put the question alluded to, to any particular peer in that House. However, the topic being mentioned, he had no hesitation to declare, what gave him heart-felt consolation, and what he was sure must afford all their lordships, and the country at large, the greatest satisfaction; namely, that there existed at present no necessary suspension whatever of his Majesty's royal functions or authorities.—The question being then put on Lord Hawkesbury's motion,
Lord Grenville
rose and spoke in substance as follows.—He considered the important measure of continuing the restriction on the Irish Bank, 2s intimately connected with the question put by the noble lord who sat near him (King), as the furtherance of such measures, and, indeed, of all measures, necessarily supposed, that every part of the constitution was in full vigour. He was sure that every noble lord in the House heard the noble Secretary's answer with the highest satisfaction, and every individual in the country must also feel the same satisfaction, and the most lively gratitude to Providence, at the consoling intelligence, that the Sovereign, whom all loved and revered, was again in a
636
637
Lord King
still expressed himself not altogether satisfied with regard to the answer given to his question. There was one circumstance, about which nothing had been said by the noble Sec. of State, that weighed considerably in his mind, which was this, that his Majesty was attended by a fifth physician, whose name did not appear on the face of the papers that were circulated relative to the indisposition of his Majesty, and his progress towards convalescence, it was certainly very material that the opinion of that filth person thought be procured and stated to the public along with that of the other four. What the noble Sec. had stated with respect to the question was probably founded on the authority of these four physicians; but the account could not be altogether satisfactory, unless the opinion of the
638
Lord Kawkesbury
said, that he thought there was no occasion for any further question on this subject. He stated the favourable account of his Majesty's health, upon what he considered as sufficient authority, and that was all that the House ought to require at present.
Lord Carlisle
rose to request a more explicit answer to the question of his noble friend. It was of the highest importance that the nation should be satisfied that there was no misapprehension on this subject. The opinion of a fifth physician, who was in attendance upon his Majesty, afforded room for conjecture that medical men were not agreed in their sentiments respecting his Majesty's indisposition; this was a circumstance of the last importance, and certainly ought not to be with-held from the legislature and the public. To remove the apprehensions on this head, to satisfy the legislature that it was not proceeding with the business of the nation when there was no executive government, to satisfy the nation there was no intention to mislead them; he wished that some explicit answer should be given with respect to this point. He would therefore, request, that before the question was put, some of his Majesty's ministers would be so candid as to satisfy the House.
Lord Fitzwilliam
followed on the same side. He urged the point that an explicit answer should be given to the question of the noble lord near him. He really wished, that the mystery which appeared to him to hang over the circumstance of a fifth physician attending his Majesty, whose name did not appear in the Bulletin, should be satisfactorily cleared up. If the opinion of that gent, was as favourable as that of the other physicians, why should it be with-held from the public? If it was not, the public had still a right to know what it was; it was a most flagrant breach of public duty in the ministers, if, from motives of false delicacy, or
639
The Lord Chancellor
then rose. He had been personally alluded to, he observed, by the noble lord who had begun this discussion. He would assure the noble lord, that he was fully sensible of the responsibility that attached to himself in particular. He had considered, and that deeply, the duty which was incumbent upon him at this trying crisis. He was aware, that while he was, on the one hand, constantly to keep in view what was due from him, in point of delicacy to his Sovereign, he ought, on the other, never to forget that he had a duty to perform to the legislature and the public. He had settled in his own mind what line of conduct he was to pursue on this occasion, and kept that line exactly, which, in his own idea, appeared to be his duty. What the ideas of others might be on the same subject was another question. But lie was anxious that there should be no misapprehension, and therefore, declared that the noble Sec. of State had correctly stated the convalesence of his Majesty. Delicate as this subject was, he would certainly not have mentioned this much, if he had not been compelled to it. But, as he had been compelled to it, he would state, that at this mo-
640
Lord Carnarvon
said, he had heard of the delicacy of entering into any investigation on such a subject. Was this, however, a time to talk of delicacy, when, besides the alarm arising from the danger which menaced us I from without, every person was struck I with terror, least a suspension had taken place of the functions of the executive government? He, for one, did not understand such ideas of delicacy. If the Sovereign himself could be consulted, he would think it a mistaken delicacy indeed, by which the country was to be left, even for a moment, without a superintending hand. Such a delicacy would be equally false to his Majesty and to his successors, as it would be false to the people. It was of the last importance to take care that no minister should presume, even for a moment, to exercise the functions of royalty. Every step taken at such a period was an usurpation. Two bills of importance were at present before Parliament, into which he apprehended it would be impossible to enter without some evidence to satisfy Parliament on this head. He would ask his Majesty's ministers, whether they themselves had any knowledge, as to the actual state of his Majesty's health? Whether they were in the daily habit of receiving marks of his personal confidence, and whether they had the usual access to his person? If these questions could not be answered in the affirmative, he must regard them merely as private individuals, no longer exercising an official situation. It was not enough that they should once have possessed his Majesty's confidence, if they were not at this moment in the enjoyment of it. On a former occasion, when a suspension of the exercise of the kingly functions was apprehended, physicians were examined before that House on the subject, and they were called on to act by similar evidence when any, the smallest interruption of the exercise of the royal functions took place. He had heard a great deal about responsibility. He knew of no such term. The national security was what they were now called on to guard, nor were they warranted to entrust so sacred a pledge to the responsibility of any individual, or of any set of men, however respectable they might be. A parish minister, or any subordinate character, by taking on himself the weight of state affairs, would unquestionably increase his own responsibility, but would the public security be increased in an equal degree?—The question was again about to be put, when.
641
Lerd Grenville
again arose, and observed, that if the noble and learned lord had given an answer to the noble lord who sat near him, it would have been still more satisfactory. The learned lord had said, that be was anxious that there should be no misapprehension. In order to prevent ibis, it would be for him to say whether he understood him right, when he considered the declaration then made as corresponding with the rule laid down in the records of Parliament, on which his hand then rested. In that rule it appeared, that the particular point at which the interference of Parliament should be considered as necessary, was, when his Majesty was in such a slate as precluded his coming down to his Parliament, and transacting the business of the nation. When the minds of the public were filled with grief and alarm, at the indisposition of his Majesty at two former periods, this rule had been adopted and written in the Parliamentary Records, in order to form a guide to the legislature and the ministers how they were to act in the event of such a case happening again. What, therefore, he understood, by the declaration which had been made, was, that his Majesty was in such a state of health, and possesed of ail the faculties necessary for the discharge of the royal functions, that he was not prevented from coming down to Parliament, and transacting the business of the nation. In order, then, to prevent all misunderstanding, he would wish that the noble and learned lord would inform him, whether the sense in which he understood tile answer which had been given was correct. When the nation was, on two former occasions, tilled with sorrow, at an event similar to the present, the noble and learned lord who then sat on the woolsack, had satisfied the House, by declaring that he Lad waited on his Majesty in person, and on his own authority and observation declared to the House, that his Majesty was in a situation capable of discharging the functions of government. At a subsequent period, another noble lord, who then sat on the woolsack, bad affixed his seal to a commission for pissing bills in that House, which was one of the most important functions of government; thereby making himself personally responsible for the capability of his Majesty to discharge those very functions; and ibis was the very act which diffused joy and satisfaction over the nation at that time. He would, therefore, wish some explicit declaration were made by the learned lord, whether his idea of what had been said, in answer to his noble friend, was just?
The Lord Chancellor
said, that from that
642
Lord Granville
said, that the words of the noble lord on the woolsack, so far from proving satisfactory to him, convinced him of the necessity of some farther conversation on the subject, before the second reading of the bill an Monday.
[BANK AND PRIVATE PAPER.]—
Lord Grenvilie
called the attention of the House to a subject on which he had on former occasions given notice on his intention to bring forward a motion. He alluded to the enormous paper circulation of the country: on this important topic he should probably take the opportunity which the second reading of the Bank of Ireland bill would afford, to deliver his sentiments. After expatiating generally; upon the subject, as connected with the general defence of the country, and in other points of view, he observed, it was unnecessary to point out the propriety of having every practical information upon the subject. In that view, he should now move for the production of an Account of all cash, bank: and private paper, received in their official capacities, by the receivers general of the land-tax for the year ending the 5th of Jan. 1804. His lordship then moved accordingly, and that the quantities of cash, batik and private paper, should be distinctly set forth, as well as the quantity received within certain given periods in the course of the year.
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that he should be under the necessity of opposing the mo-
643
Lord Grenville
expressed his surprise that the coble lord should so confidently pronounce on the inferences which he might attempt to draw from the accounts he had moved form and it was the first time he had heard the production of papers opposed, which tended to give information to that House, because his Majesty's ministers did not draw the same conclusion from them which was sought to be established by the mover. Equally astonished was he, that when the question was on the propriety or impropriety of continuing the restriction on the Bank of Ireland, which necessarily involved the consideration of the comparative issue of paper in both countries, that his Majesty's ministers should refuse the House a document so necessary to the foil and just investigation of the subject before them. As to the noble lord's disapprobation of bringing forward the motion of which he had given notice previous to the recess, that surely would have to tendency on the present question. His lordship's arguments on the occasion seemed to be, "I will not let the House have documents en a point immediately before them, be cause these documents may have some bearing on an inquiry of which I disapprove, and which may hereafter be moved
644
Lord Hawkesbury
alleged that the noble lord had mistaken his meaning from beginning to end. He had not spoken of any inference from the accounts, but only said, that they would not establish the facts required, and were therefore useless. For the point, he had only meant that the documents being useful on another inquiry, the expediency of that inquiry should first be determined, before they were granted, as the production of them might create much trouble and alarm. Though the accounts might have been useful on the first passing of the bill, yet as, whatever was the original policy of that measure, it was not intimated that any doubt existed on the propriety of continuing
645
Lord Carnarvon
supported the motion, and strenuously followed the line of observation taken by Lord Grenville.
Lord Hobart
defended his noble colleague and friend, and seemed to conceive the argument would end, upon his observing, that it was impossible to produce, the accounts before the 2
d
Lord Grenville
said, the noble lord would hive spared himself that observation had he looked at the title of the bill. In fact it had six weeks to continue.
The Lard Chancellor
professed some doubt, whether the accounts would, if produced, ascertain the facts required. The great mischief of private paper arose, in his opinion, from the pernicious practice of fictitious credit, and accommodation bills. The practice in this case was for a set of gentlemen; o distribute themselves in different parts of the country: they then connected themselves with a corresponding set of acquaintances in London, and commenced undertakings, by drawing bills on each other. The evils of this practice were great, and never should have been permitted to exist. As it was established, he was aware it could not be abolished without serious evil, but he thought it the duty of the legislature to inquire, whether the evil of its removal was not preferable to the evil of its existence? It was surely too much to permit the circulation of bills drawn for value received, en persons who had no effects. As to the immediate subject, he doubted, whether, should the bill continue six. weeks, it would be time enough to procure the returns from the receivers general. He also conceived it would not be in their power to make them our. All they received was put indiscriminately into a common mass, and was sent to London through the medium of private bids; he, therefore, could not see what purpose the motion could possibly answer.
Earl spencer
thought the observations made by his noble friend (Lord Grenville) were not sufficiently answered by the noble lord opposite him. His noble friend had expressly stated, that the accounts moved for might not be perfect, but that they were the best, facts that could be obtained on the
646
Lord Hobart
said, on inquiry, he understood the bill did expire the 26th inst. as he first mentioned, and did not subsist six weeks longer.
The Lord Chancellor
said, he rather believed that was the case, as months in acts of Parliament were reckoned by lunar, and not calendar months, which made the difference.—The question was then put, and negatived without a division.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 1, 1804.
The adjourned ballot for a committee to try the merits of a petition, complaining of an undue election for Coventry, stood for; this day, but there being only 63 members present at four o'clock, an adjournment of course took place till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 2, 1804.
The bill for prohibiting the exportation of seed corn for a limited time, was read a second time, and committed for Monday next—The several private bills before theit lordships were passed in their respective stages.—Lord Viscount Carleton and the Earl of Macclesfield presented two petitions, which were ordered to be laid on the table.—Several witnesses were sworn to give evidence on certain private bills in progress through the House, and the oaths of allegiance were taken by an alien, Daniel Boileau, previous to the 2
d
647
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 2, 1804.
[MINUTES]—
The Speaker having taken the chair, the House proceeded to ballot for a committee to consider the merits of the Coventry petition, complaining of an undue election, when the following members were chosen: Sir. J C Hippieley, Bart.; C. Adams, Esq.; R. Dawson, Esq.; Vise. Fitzharris; Sir G. Heatheote, Bart.; Sir E. Hartopp, Bart.; Lord Porchester; Hon. W. Stewart; W. Moffatt, Esq; M. Wood, Esq.; W. Northey, Esq.; J. Buller, Esq; Sir R. Barclay, Bart.—Nominee, W Praed; P. Francis, Esqs, Who being duly sworn, proceeded forthwith to their committee-room.—Ordered on the motion of Sir G. Cornwall, that the minutes of the proceedings before the Aylesbury committee he printed.—JMr. W. Dundas obtained leave to bring in a bill for the better paving, cleansing, and lighting the city of Edinburgh. Read a second time and committed, the East-India Dock Bill and the Scotch Bankrupt Law Bill—Sir John William Anderson, obtained leave to bring, in a bill for the better Assessment and Collection of the Poor Rates in the parish of Stratford-le-Bow.
IRISH SALARIES AT PAR.]—
Lord Arcbibald Hamilton
rose, and observed, that he did expect, in consequence of what had fallen in the course of discussion, a few sights since, that some account would have been laid before the House, respecting the remittances of salaries to the officers belonging to the Irish government resident in England at par. notwithstanding the great differences of exchange which have, since the union, continued to increase as against Ireland. Not seeing, however, any disposition to produce such an account, he felt it his duty to move, "That there be laid before the House, an account of the remittances made from the Irish government to their officers, resident in this country, since the union, and paid to them at par, with the dates of such remittances and payment, and copies of the orders for such remittances."
Mr. Corry
said, if the noble lord had not moved for the account now stated, he would himself have felt it his duty to have made the motion. On the matter having been mentioned by the noble lord a few nights since, no person could be more solicitous titan he was to have it fully explained; and, indeed, he had already framed a motion on the subject, which he meant to have made, had his intention not been anticipated by the noble lord. If the noble lord wished to have, in minute detail, the precise sums
648
Lord Archibald Hamilton
thanked the right hon. gent, and could have no objection to adopt that shape he had given to the motion; but observed, that it omitted a principal point which he wished to learn, namely, the orders by which such remittances were made.
Mr. Corry
declared himself willing to accede, adding, that no such order was made, except by the Treasury of Ireland, or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by whom the payments to minor officers here were made in checks on the Bank.
Lord Folkestone
understood, that payments were made to officers resident in Ireland at; par, and. therefore, he wished to add, byway of amendment to the motion, the words, "in or', before the words, "from Ireland."—Agreed to. Upon which the motion passed in this shape, and the account was accordingly ordered.
MILITARY OFFICERS' INCOME TAX.]—
Earl Temple
rose, in consequence of what he had mentioned on a former night, respecting the assessment of income tax upon the others of certain regiments in the district where he resided, in a mode, which, it seemed, had the sanction of his Majesty's Attorney-General; and he meant now to give notice of his intention to bring forward, at a future day, a motion, in some shape, from the discussion of which he should hope to induce the House to exempt subaltern officers from that tax altogether; but which motion he should precede by another, for an Account of the amount of the sums levied under the income tax bill, upon officers of the army and militia, up to the 5th of Nov., so far as the same could be made up. He did not mean to be particular in specifying each regiment, but the gross amount.
649
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, if the noble lord had only thought fit to ask the question across the House, or in private of him, there could be no objection to satisfy his curiosity; but since he had avowed his object, and the purpose to which he intended to apply the information, he thought the motion of too much importance to be granted as a motion of course, without previous notice.
Earl Temple
said, he did not intrude the motion now; he only meant to give notice or' bringing it forward on Wednesday next.
[IRISH EXCHANGE AND CURRENCY.]—
Mr. Foster
rose, and said, that he had given notice a few days ago of his intention to bring forward, this day, a motion for a Committee, to inquire into the causes of the present exorbitant state of the exchange between Ireland and this country, as against the former, and he now meant to perform his promise: and when the House should consider that the rate of exchange at this moment, between Dublin and London, was no less than 18₽ per cent, being 10 per cent, above the ordinary rate, which is 8 13
d
650
l;
l.
l.
s.
d.
s
d.
651
s.
d.
l.
l.,
l.
652
l.
653
Mr. Brogden
rose, not to oppose the motion of the right hon. gent, to which he had no objection, but instate shortly his own opinion, that the true causes of the evil complained against, were not those stated by the right hen. gent, but consisted radically in the disturbed state of Ireland, which operated to depress the exports of Ireland in so material a degree for the last few years, as to create, a considerable balance of trade against her. Tins, of course, rendered the number of merchants in Dublin, who could draw upon London, much fewer; and those of London, who could draw on Dublin, much more numerous in proportion; and the natural consequence of a paucity or redundance of such bills at market, raided or depressed the rate of exchange.
Mr. George Ponsonby
said, that as the hon. gent, had not expressed any intention of opposing the motion, it was not, perhaps, necessary to make any observation upon what he had said, but he thought the hon. gent. might as well have reserved his observations till the Committee went into the inquiry which was proposed. What had been said about exchange might be perfectly true, when the exchange between the two countries was real; but it was well known, that there was a nominal as well as a real exchange, and that ought always to be borne in mind when this subject was discussed. The subject he was convinced was deserving of consideration.—With regard to the distress that prevailed in Ireland on account of the state of the circulation, he was sure no man who had not been in that country could form a just conception of it from any description, however accurate. There was not to be found in the country parts of Ireland, except in the North, any description of coin whatsoever, except some very bad copper; silver or gold there were none. But as something must be used for circulation, there were many persons who, without any capital whatsoever, set up a kind of banking shops, and issued notes of 6
d.,
s.,
s.
d.
654
s.
d.
Mr. Corry
said, he rose by no means to offer the smallest opposition to the motion of the right hon. gent; a motion, the principle of which had already been acceded to by some of his friends round him. He did not, however, wish to be understood as meaning to express any conviction that would produce any practical benefit, which would remedy the evil which, was complained of. If the inquiry should be productive of any beneficial consequences, it would give him the most sincere satisfaction, and even if it should fail of the desired end, it might have this effect, that it would prove to the public the truth of the opinion which had been delivered by the best informed men upon this subject, viz. that for the evil of exchange there was no remedy in the power of Parliament. It would set the public mind at rest upon the subject, and the House would have discharged its duty with attention and with due regard to the interest of the people of Ireland. Every body would be satisfied with the degree of alleviation, if net of remedy, which this might produce, or they would be convinced, after full inquiry, that it was not possible to do any thing upon the subject.—With regard to the circulation of Ireland, the House would bear in recollection, that this subject had not escaped the
655
656
s.
s.
s.
s.
s.
Mr. Foster
said, that the observations which the right hon. gent, had made as to the difference between the real and the official value of the exports did not apply, because, in the calculation he had made, he had taken the official value both of imports and exports. He knew very well that there was a great difference between real and official value, because the cattle that were exported from Ireland to England, were valued in Ireland at 12
l
1.,
Mr. Corty
said, he had before stated, that although there was a difference between the real and official value of imports, it was by no means so great as the difference between the real and the official value of the exports.
Lord Henry Petty
rose only to say a few
657
Lord Castlereagh
said, that no person could regret more than he did the unfortunate state of exchange in Ireland, and the depreciation of its paper currency. He was glad, therefore, that such a motion had been brought forward, but did not know that any measure could be applied with effect to the evil that was on all sides admitted. He could not help thinking, however, that we were apt to attach more evil to the circulation of
658
Mr. Dick
was of opinion, that not only those discussions that were instituted in this House, but the speculations that were circulated through every part of the country, were extremely disadvantageous, and had a tendency to augment the evil they meant to remedy. There seemed to him to be a kind of prejudice entertained against she Bank of Ireland, which he was sure was very ill-founded. The directors of the Bank of Ireland had been attacked both in and out of that House: he had seen a pamphlet, written by a noble lord (King), nut a member of that House, which contained a most violent, unwarrantable, and unsuccessful attack upon that must respectable body of men, and the ground of attack was the great issue of paper. He did nor wish to occupy the attention of the House; but he was anxious to offer an observation that had occurred to him in regard to the subject now in discussion. To the Bank of Ireland no particular circumstances had occurred since the year 1797 that could affect their interests, but the restriction of their issues in specie. Since that restriction had taken place, however, some circulating medium became absolutely necessary, and the effects of this new circuiting medium were various, since that event, in particular, they had increased their capital to a very great degree. The situation of the country was such, the hon. gent. thought, that nothing but the restoration of tranquillity, and the gallantry of; his country toward In-land in money transactions, could effectually remedy those evils that were complained of.
Sir John Newport
was of opinion also, that nothing could be mote unfavourable to the state of exchange that was so much complained of, than the discussions that took place in the House, which had a tendency to excite hopes that could not be realized, and
659
J.
660
Lord Archibald Hamilton
found himself compelled to state, in justice to the noble author of the pamphlet alluded to, that, previous to the restriction on the Bank of ireland, their paper issues had not amounted to more than 600,000
l.,
l.,
661
Mr. Alexander
said, he hoped the House would go into the proposed inquiry. He wished that there was a uniform medium of circulation in both countries, whether it was of gold or of paper. He contended, that there was no ground for any charge upon the Bank of Ireland, the directors of which acted from the best motives; and if there was any inconvenience, it arose from the issue of their paper being too small instead of being too large. The fact was, that the issue of their paper had been intercepted by an extraordinary degree of agency on the part of the private banks.
Mr. Fox
could not pass unnoticed, an idea that had been suggested in regard to the pamphlet of his noble friend (Lord King). It had been said, that discussion on this subject had an unfavourable tendency, and that on this principle the pamphlet in question had a tendency rather to increase than to remedy the evil. But, he maintained, that nothing could be more favourable on any subject than an examination of facts so far as it is possible to examine them. This the pamphlet of the noble lord certainly did, and the very circumstance which had been advanced as an aggravation of the mischief it was calculated to produce, was the very best proof of its merit, he meant the influence and circulation it had obtained. At his time of life, what influence could that noble lord possess, but such only as was derived from argument, and that conviction which was the necessary accompaniment of truth. And would any man say, that to adduce facts to the public on a subject that called for investigation, and of which the evils were felt, and to accompany those facts with a conviction that those evils were capable of redress, was a measure that could on any occasion, or on any subject, be improper? Nothing, he was sure, would give his noble friend more pleasure than to have his opinions closely investigated. The House ought, he thought, by all means to go into a committee on the subject in question. The more such subjects were discussed so much the bitter. He had no idea of that
662
s.
Mr. Dick
rose to declare, that he did not mean to cast any reflection on the noble lord to whom he had formerly alluded.—After a few words from Mr. Dent in favour of the motion, the motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed, amongst whom were the. following members: Mr. Foster, Lord A. Hamilton, Lord Henry Petty, Lord Folkestone, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, Mr. Grey, Mr. Rose, Mr. Canning, Sir W. Pulteney, Sir J. Newport, Mr. J. C. Beresford, Mr. She-
663
[IRISH REVENUE ACTS.]—
Mr. Corry
said, that an order of yesterday for a committee of the whole House on the Irish revenue acts had dropped in consequence of there not being a sufficient number of members to proceed to a ballot, but he trusted their could be no objection to the House now voting itself into a committee on the said acts. It was his intention to propose in the committee the renewal of the Irish duties, and as they would expire on the 25th of March, he trusted he should not be considered as too rapid in pressing the subject.—
[HIS MAJESTY'S INDISPOSITION.]—
Mr. Grey
said, he did not mean to oppose the motion of the right hon. gent, but, previous to going into the committee, he wished to put a question to his Majesty's ministers, which he would have done antecedent to the motion that had just been disposed of, if he had had any suspicion that the discussion would have extended to such length. The question he meant to put was deeply interesting to the public, and in putting it he acted under a strong sense of duty, which obliged him to ask some explanation of the terms which had been used both here and in another place, on a subject which affected every British breast. Though, on the firs! view, the information that had been given seemed calculated to give satisfaction to the public, yet it had created only doubts and anxiety, which were afflicting to every loyal subject. He had risen, therefore, to ask some explanation of the words, which had been on a former occasion employed, in order to do away those doubts and that ambiguity which they had given birth to. If he did not mistake, the words of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were, that there was no necessary suspension of the royal functions. He wished to understand whether the right hon. gent, meant to state, that his Majesty was at present personally competent to the performance of the functions of the executive, and whether he was to consider him as pledged to these words. He wished also to be informed, whether the assertion was founded on his observation in a personal communication with his Majesty, or only on the reports of the physicians attending his Majesty. He put this question, not from any want of delicacy, but in order to remove the anxiety which at present affected the public; and he thought it his duty to, ask, and he was sure the House had a right to require, an explanation, that
664
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that whether the question which was put by the hon. gent, was one which when publicly known, would excite regret in the minds of an affectionate and loyal people, or otherwise, was not for him to declare. It was his desire to be as explicit as his sense of his duty would permit, and after the manner in which this subject had been adverted to on a former night, and what he had said on that occasion, he should have thought that all further questions of this kind would have been precluded, and abstained from. He had then slated what was in the recollection of every hon. member, and what the hon. gent, had now repeated. To that he should refer the hon. gent, with this single addition, that it was not founded on any personal intercourse with his Majesty, but on that which enabled him to state it to the House on better and more authorative information, the concurring testimony of all the five physicians who were in attendance on his Majesty.—
Mr. Grey
said, that if things continued in the state they were at present, he should think it his duty to make a specific motion on the subject on an early day in next week.
Mr. Pitt
suggested whether it would not be right, that the proposition made by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Corry) for going into a committee on the Irish revenue acts, having for its object to replace acts which were not to expire till the 25th of March, should take place of another measure, the volunteer consolidation bill, the importance of which daily and hourly pressed stronger upon the country.
Mr. Corry
said, that all the duties of Ireland would expire with the existing acts on the 25th of March next. It was therefore essential to forward the present measure, but if it was the pleasure of the House, to allow him to propose the schedule pro forma, and then to allow the report to be brought up tomorrow, that he might make such comments as he would have thought it neces-
665
[MUTINY BILL]—
The Secretary at War
observed, that among the dropped orders, was one for the committal of the mutiny bill. He trusted, that the House would have no objection to forwarding this important measure now.—The House accordingly went into the committee. The report was ordered; to be received to-morrow.
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL]
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a committee on the Volunteer Consolidation Bill. As there were several clauses to propose he suggested that it would be better to debate the principle of the bill on the report.—The House having resolved itself into a committee, the right hon. Secretary proposed several amendments in the body of the bill, the first of which went to confine the repeal of former laws to those relating to the yeomanry and volunteer corps of Great-Britain, it being thought better, he said, to leave the laws relating to the yeomanry and volunteer corps of Ireland as they stood. He also proposed to insert some words to render the fines and penalties under former acts recoverable. His next amendment went to authorise the continuance of the corps now in existence, unless his Majesty should please to discontinue the services of any corps, or part of a corps, by an order through the Secretary of State These amendments were severally agreed to.
Sir William Young
then rose to propose an amendment in the second clause. The House, he said, must be aware that the war was like to be of long duration, and it therefore became necessary to look towards a permanent system of defence. He thought that the exemptions tended to withdraw from the force of the country a great proportion of its population. With respect to these he wished to draw the line between those volunteers who had originally come forward on the purest principles of patriotism, and those who had afterwards come forward in order to avoid the compulsory provisions of the defence act. He wished only to extend the exemptions to those corps who had been accepted by his Majesty previous to the 27th of July 1803, by which means they would only attach upon 80 or
666
Mr. Pitt
really hoped it was impossible the House could think this proposition required much argument to prove, that it could not possibly be adopted with any thing like consistency or common sense. In the present session, immediately previous to the Christmas recess, in order to prevent doubts as to a supposed breach on this point, the exemptions had been given to all corps, on condition of exercising a certain number of days. These corps having conformed to that condition, was the House now to withhold or take away the boon it had held forth? Having performed and ratified the compact, so far as they were concerned, was Parliament to forfeit the pledge it had gives, and to recal the distinctions it had cancelled and repealed? By this proposition the exemptions would be taken away from persons to whom they were given by Parliament, and enjoyed by persons coming into these corps with their eyes open And all this because they had offered their services to avoid the compulsory clauses of the defence act. Now, let him here observe, that if Parliament held out inducements to voluntary service as preferable, and in order to save the trouble of resorting to compulsion, and then endeavoured to retract and take back the inducements to which it had pledged itself; if it had said, "it is true you have complied with what we desired, but we will take away what we promised to you," he thought this amounted pretty clearly to a breach of faith. Then this was to be done because the persons composing the corps enrolled subsequent to the 27th July, were supposed to have avoided compulsion. Now, if there was any point universally recognised and agreed upon, it was, that the compulsory power should be kept in reserve to enforce the exertion if it was tardy, but that voluntary exertion was preferable, if it could be obtained in sufficient extent; and if that exertion should not be obtained in sufficient proportion in any particular district, the compulsory clauses should be put in force in those districts.—If persons came voluntarily forward, they saved
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Mr. Windham
rose to propose a course of proceeding, which would obviate much trouble. It was, that as a great number of clauses were to be proposed by the movers of the bill, as well as by others, which it was impossible, however intelligible they may be to the proposers, that those who never before heard them should understand, so as to decide on the instant the propriety of adopting or rejecting them, whether it would not be better to have them all admitted into the bill pro forma this night, and printed for discussion on the report or recommitment, when they should have been fully considered. He foresaw, that this proposition afforded room for an objection, that many clauses would get into the bill which its proposers did not approve of, and which being inconsistent with each other, gave rise to a charge of inconsistency against those who drew them up; but he thought
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Mr. Fuller
defended the motives of the volunteer offers of service. He adverted to the deficiency in the Sussex militia, which arose from the necessity of finding substitutes from the county itself, or the adjacent counties. The county itself was not a manufacturing county, consequently it wanted one of the principal sources of recruiting its militia. It was a maritime county, having no adjoining county on 90 miles of its border.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
observed, that the principle of obtaining substitutes from the county itself, or the adjoining county, was universal, and one. of the oldest in the militia laws.—In answer to the proposition of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), it must be obviously inadmissible so far as it went to the reception of ail clauses of whatever description. But if it was agreeable, he would state the substance of the clauses he had to propose, which might be agreed to pro forma, and the bill being reprinted with them, might be discussed again on Tuesday. The right hon. gent, behind him (Mr. Pitt), and any other gent, who had clauses, might then propose them, and they would be debated.
Mr. Curwen
hoped, after what had been said, that the hon baronet would see the propriety of withdrawing his clause. If the clause was adopted, it would be partial in its operation, as the ballot bad taken place in some districts,' and consequently the benefit of the exemptions was enjoyed in those districts; in other districts it had not taken place, and, consequently, the exemptions would be denied in those districts, if the clause was allowed to pass. He should, before a distant day, move, that returns of all the volunteer corps should be obtained, distinguishing the classes. He was sure it would then be found that the number bene-fitted by the exemptions was very few.
Colonel Craufurd
was ready to accede to the proposition made by his right hon. friend, and assented to by the Sec. of Stale, if the hon. baronet, in withdrawing his clause, was to be understood to mean to bring it forward again. He would not, however, deprive himself entirely of the opportunity of discussing the propriety of those exemptions which deprived us of an armed peasantry, and if the hon. baronet's clause was not to be brought forward on another night, he would offer his observations now.
Mr. Pitt
said it would be extremely convenient for the House, before proceeding
669
The Chancellar the Exchequer
explained the object of his right hon. friend (Mr. Yorke) which, was to consult the convenience of the House. His right hon. friend would still hear what he had to offer in the nature of amendment, and others would be at liberty to say how far these amendments met their views.
Sir William Young
said, he should not press his amendment after what had been said; but he thought it would be no breach of faith to take away from the volunteers, what was never given to them.—The proposed amendment was then withdrawn.—A further explanation took place betwixt Mr. Pitt and Mr. Yorke, the result of which was, that the right hon. Sec. of State should generally explain the nature of his amendments, and that Mr. Pitt should he permitted to put the House in possession of the scope of his intended improvements.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said, if he understood the wish of the committee, it was, that the clauses he had to propose should be received pro forma, and that he should state his view of the provisions suggested by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), with his reasons why he thought some of those ought not to be inserted in the present bill. He set out upon the basis, that the volunteer system must at present be preserved, that it would be unwise at the present moment to lay it aside, but that it must be rendered as effectual as possible. He thought that a great deal of misconception had taken place with respect to the volunteers. The volunteer system had arisen out of the Defence Act; by that act his Majesty was empowered to call out the classes, in case a sufficient number of volunteers did not come forward, or to fill up any part of the system that might be done away, but he was of opinion, that that act ought to remain in reserve, to be only executed in case there was a necessity
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Mr. Pitt
said, he should have been extremely happy if the right hon. gent, who had just spoken, had relieved him from the necessity of addressing the Committee upon the present occasion; but as the matter stood, lie was under that necessity. He was not desirous of particularly or tenaciously adhering to one mode rather than another, provided he saw that the substance of the thing he wanted was likely to be secured, and which appeared to him absolutely necessary to be accomplished. It was indifferent to him whether that was done by means of clauses in the bill or by the executive government, in virtue of any discretionary power given for that purpose, provided he found an assurance that it would be done; in that case, he should have been ready to acquiesce with government in any mode they might think expedient to adopt, but from the speech of the right hon. gent. that matter was left wholly uncertain, whether any thing that might amount to the substance of his proposal would be acceded to, on one or two of the most important points, as it appeared to him, in the whole of the volunteer system; he must therefore state to the Committee the ground of his proposal, that they might consider whether clauses would not be better than to leave the matter open to any discretion whatever.—He should take first that point which with
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Mr. Secretary Yorke
stated, that there was a circumstance which he committed I to mention, when he first addressed the committee, and that was, that it was intended to appoint an inspecting field officer to every 2500, or 3000 men, and which field officers, in case of invasion, were to act as brigade generals with the corps under their inspection.—With respect to that part of the bill which regarded the election of officers, although he was of opinion, that it should be generally left to the King's discretion, yet he thought that on many, or, indeed, most occasions, it would be proper to allow the lieutenants of the counties to sign "commissions.—He would trouble the committee with a few words on the declare-
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Mr. Pitt
repeated the idea thrown out in his former speech, of the necessity of employing in the volunteer service, as field officer, either persons on half-pay, or persons who had once been in the army, but had retired from it. They would be fully as serviceable as an increased number of subalterns, and would not create any greater expense. Great as the patriotism of those at the head of the volunteer establishment was, it would not be expected that they could go through the permanent drudgery of continual drills. That would only be conducted by officers who, by a moderate and secured pay, were attached to the different corps.
Mr. Curwen
objected to many parts of the system, and hoped that apprentices who had been admitted into volunteer corps, would not be taken away from their masters', service, without some allowance in recompense. He disapproved of the practice of levying fines, and recommended an allowance of pay, but for what period he would not take upon himself to suggest, if gent, were still much attached to the practice of fining, he thought all the advantages that were expected from that usage, could be secured by a reasonable deduction from such pay for every non-attendance. The conditions of the services of he different volunteer corps were so various, that he much feared no general code could be formed for the regulations of so diversified and complicated system.
686
Mr. Fuller
could by no means be reconciled to the idea of allowing pay to field officers. With respect to the idea of remunerating the volunteer, which has been so much insisted on, he observed, that a generous public would not hesitate to reward him afterwards. Some of the hon. gentleman's observations created much risibility in the House; but he declared, that attempts to beat him down would be found ineffectual, and that no consideration whatever should prevent him from speaking his mind.—Some explanatory conversation took place between Col. Eyre and Mr. Sec. Yorke, relative to the attendance of the adjutants, serjeant-majors, &c.
Sir John Wrottesley
expressed his opinion, that sonic general rule should be laid down which would go to meet, the difficulties complained of. With respect to this, however, he thought the variety of the occupations of the people of this country a disadvantageous consideration. It might, notwithstanding, be found that some degree of military duly would suit every respective description of the inhabitants, and which may be arranged by his Majesty's ministers, with the assistance of, or carried into effect under, the superintendence of general officers.
Mr. C, Wynne
adverted to several remaining details in the system, for which some efficient regulations ought to be established, particularly to the circumstance of farmers' servants being allowed to be called out. He thought some provision should be made with respect to those who may be called out on permanent duty. On these points he thought something more effectual should be brought forward than had been as yet proposed.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
then proposed some farther amendments, which were without discussion ordered to be incorporated in the bill.—The chairman was then ordered to leave the chair, and to report the bill, with the amendments, to the House.—The House resumed, and ordered the report to be now received.—The amendments were then formally agreed to by the House, and, on the motion of Mr. Sec. Yorke, the bill, as amended, was ordered to be printed, and the whole taken into farther consideration on Tuesday next.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, March 3, 1804.
MINUTES.]—
Sir John Cox Hippesley
reported from the committee appointed to try the merits of the Coventry election, that
687
[IRISH REVENUE ACTS.]—
Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of the commit tee upon the Irish revenue acts. On the first resolution having been read,
Mr. Carry
rose to submit to the House some observations upon the resolutions which had been reported to the House. It appeared to him necessary to do so, in order to convey to the House a knowledge of the principle upon which the schedule was formed. He would be as succinct in his statement as was consistent with clearness of explanation, because it would be impossible to enter into a detailed discussion upon the subject, until the schedule was printed, and in the hands of the members of that House.—There were two preliminary observations which he wished to make, viz. that the provisions to carry this schedule into effect belonged to the bill into which this schedule, if approved of by the house, would be afterwards introduced; and here he wished to observe, that according to the principle always pursued with regard to the duties upon certain articles relating to the manufactures of Ireland, particularly the linen trade and the dyers, though it was intended that all those articles should remain in the same state in which they were, yet the freedom from those duties was not contained in the schedule, but would be introduced in the bill.—The other observation he wished to make was this, that the limitation in point of time, if any such limitation should bethought fit, would be the subject of a clause in the bill.
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Mr. Foster
said, he did not mean to enter into any observations upon the subject then, but he wished the horn gent, would lay before the house a list of such obsolete articles as had been left out of the schedule. He was glad to hear that the merchants of Ireland were so well satisfied with this schedule, because he inferred from thence, that the duty upon the export of linen, which had been so much complained of in Ireland, was abandoned.
Mr. Corry
expressed the satisfaction it would have given him, had any alteration of this kind been practicable, but that no such alteration was contained in the schedule. He was sorry he had not made himself more intelligible to the rt hon. gent. No person could be more anxious than he was to be favourable, to Ireland, particularly when its first and most important article of export was in question; but he thought it would be unfair and inconsistent with the principles of the union, if the articles of the one country did not leave the ports of the other precisely under the same circumstances as they would do the ports where such articles were manufactured. It was fair that articles of cotton manufacture should go from the ports of Ireland with the same duty as from this country. Indeed none of the manufactures of this country were free from the export duty. Would it then be reasonable that Irish linen going out with British linen should be free from the export duty while the British linen was subject to it? In this case the British manufacturer must labour under an almost insuperable disadvantage, a disadvantage of not less than 4 per cent. But the great object was to raise the taxes within the year, and not to be
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Mr. Foster
was not disposed to enter into any argument on the. subject; nor did he give his opinion whether such a duty should or should not be laid on that manufacture. He had only concluded, from the face of the right hon. gent's, statement, that that duty was to be removed. If he had been led into an error, it was with the right hon. gent, himself that that error originated; for he had certainly stated that the schedules he had submitted to the House, had met with the approbation of the manufacturers and merchants, whose approbation, from what he knew of their sentiments, was not to he obtained by a continuance of the duty. He
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Mr. Corry
begged leave to put the right hon. gent, right. He had not really used the words to which the right hon. gent. had alluded. He had only expressed his hops that it would meet the approbation of all the mercantile interest of the country. He had received letters from the merchants of Cork, stating certain circumstances and certain requisitions that would be acceptable to them. All these he had complied with in the schedule by anticipation, and hoped they would therefore be pleased. The merchants of Belfast had desired the measure to be postponed, and for this reason he had delayed it for some time; but they had come forward with no requisitions whatever. Io letters from Dublin a drawback on salt had been requested, and this was one instance, and, except another of very Utile moment, the only instance, in which he had not complied with what he knew to be the wish of those who were concerned.
Sir Dawson
complimented the right hon. gent, on the perspicuity and clearness with which he had expressed himself, and thought that his statement ought in this respect to give general satisfaction; but said, that on his return home after the last session, he was very much blamed by his constituents for not opposing the tax when it was imposed. His silence, he confessed, was owing entirely to ignorance, as he was not aware that such a duty had been imposed. He was one of those who had opposed the Union; but as soon as that act of the Legislature had passed, he had done all in his power to make it as palatable as possible. He was sorry, there fore, to see one of the first acts of the united legislature have so great a tendency to depress the staple commodity, and almost the sole manufacture of Ireland. Such, a step, he thought, must make the union still more unpopular than any thing that had hitherto been done.
Mr. Alexander
did not see why the North, of Ireland should be exempted from any of those duties that were necessary to support the government, more than any other part of the empire. He thought the situation of the state required some exertion, and did not apprehend that the linen trade was at all suffering under the tax. No class of labourers in Europe were better paid than those connected with the linen manufacture in Ireland, and therefore none, he thought, were better able to contribute to the support of the state. It would be enough if they were relieved from the tax when the situation of the country could admit of it.
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Mr. Atkins
said, he did not think there were any grounds for taking off this duly; there were between thirty and forty articles employed in the linen manufacture of Ireland, imported duty-free, which was not the case with English manufactures.
Mr. Hawthorne
thought the tax in question could be no reasonable subject of complaint, when it was considered that it was not a permanent tax, but intended to continue only during the war. Upon this principle it met with his concurrence, though, otherwise, he confessed he should have been disposed to oppose it.
Lord De Blaquiere
maintained that, notwithstanding the tax complained of, they still go to market with advantage, as had been fully explained by his right hon. friend. The duty his lord-hip considered not as a burden, but rather as a subject of glory, that they were called upon to pay their quota in support of the country in the present crisis.
Lord Castlereagh
did not wish that it should go abroad that the linen trade was taxed more than it could really bear. The truth was, that the tax as in every other article of manufacture must fall not on the manufacturer, baton the consumer. he great question was, whether the tax was of such a nature as to prevent the manufacturers going to a foreign market, or if it was of such an extent as to operate as an embargo on the export of the article? But if the tax was of such a nature, his lordship maintained, as not to shake the export nor to harrow the circulation of the article in a foreign market, there could be no reasonable objection to its imposition, particularly when justified by other circumstances. Other wise his lordship allowed that that tax would certainty be impolitic. Another question that would naturally occur on this subject was, whether the export during the operation of the tax. was greater or less than in former years, when unencumbered with the tax? The duty fell at all events so moderately on the linen traders, that they were not entitled to complain, unless it could be shewn that it affected in any material degree their usual rate of exportation.
Lord De Blaquiere
did not understand that there were any particular complaints in Ireland on the subject. The opinions of the people here were not particularly hostile to he measure.
Mr. Faster
stated, that in regard to the linen board, to opinion had been asked of them, nor had they entered into any resolution, or given any opinion on the subject. He understood it, however, to be the general desire of people in Dublin to
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Mr. Corry
ackowledged that resolution had been entered into at the meeting to which the right hon. gent, alluded, but that that meeting had been called merely to explain the grounds of the tax. At the same time there was no disapprobation expressed, and considering the attention which the right hon. gent, himself had given to the subject, he was willing to consider his not expressing positive disapprobation as a tacit acknowledgment that the measure was justifiable, for he was certain that if that right hon. gent, regarded the measure as incompatible with the public good, he would not have hesitated to have given it his most decided and peremptory negative. Since this was not the case, he was willing to construe his silence into approbation. With respect to the motion of laying the different statutes before the House, he would accede to it with the greatest satisfaction, but it would necessarily require some time.—The report was agreed to, and a bill ordered to be prepared and brought in accordingly. Alter which,
Mr. Corry
moved, that a list of the articles contained in the book of rates by act of Parliament be laid before the House, with some other papers connected with the Irish revenue, which was agreed to accordingly.
Mr. Faster
them moved for some accounts relative to the real and official value of the exports and imports of Great Britain to and from Ireland.—Agreed to.—Also, that there be laid before the House copies or extracts of the divers proclamations which have been made in Great Britain or Ireland, respecting corn, meal, or malt, Indian turn, rice, Or potatoes, &c. since the union, to the latest period the same can be made up. Ordered.
Mr. Dawson
moved, that there be laid before the House, an account of all linen imported from Great Britain or Ireland, distinguishing that which was manufactured in Ireland since the union, to the 5th of January 1804, distinguishing each year. Ordered.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 5, 1804.
[MINUTES,]—
The various bills before the House were forwarded in their respective stages and some routine business
697
[CATHOLIC CORRESPONDENCE.]—
The Earl of Suffolk
took the opportunity to state, that it was his intention, after the recess, should no other peer more competent to do justice to the subject than himself come forward on the occasion, to call the attention of the House to an affair of considerable importance, and which had been the subject of a correspondance between a noble and learned lord (Redesdale), and another lord in Ireland the Ear of Fingal.
[HIS MAJESTY'S INDISPOSITION.]—
The order was then rend for their lordships tore-solve into a committee on the Duke of York's estate bill, and on the question being put,
The Lord Chancellor
quitted the woolsack, and observed, that relative to a bill of the peculiar nature of the present, his Majesty's concurrence was more especially necessary. He, therefore, rose for the purpose of informing the House, that he had the honour, yesterday, of an interview with his Majesty, and which was repeated this day; that he had informed his Majesty of the contents of this bill, and that his Majesty was graciously pleased to say, with reference to the same, that, as far as his Majesty's interest was concerned, their lordships might proceed with the bill.—The bill then passed the committee without observation or amendment, and was ordered to be reported to-morrow.
[IRISH BANK RESTRICTION BILL.]—
On the motion for the second reading of the bank of Ireland restriction bill,
Lord King
rose to state several observations, which he felt it his duty to do, as he had reason to hope they would be not wholly without their use, although he should not formally resist the motion. The discussion which had already taken place on this important subject, had, he was persuaded, produced much benefit. The principles ha had frequently submitted to their lordships, were of that nature, that the more they were examined, the more conviction they carried with them; and so imperious was their necessity in the present circumstances of the nation, that he could not be too urgent with their lordships to give them their serious and repeated consideration. The stale of Ireland grew daily into a stronger proof of the accuracy of his former arguments. He would call on every noble Lord connected with that country, to give
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The Earl of Limerick
observed, that the noble lord had nor thought proper to bring forward that charge against his Majesty's officers in Ireland, who had paid certain pensions and salaries at par, which he had threatened on a former night; and, therefore, he supposed his lordship had abandoned it, having found on better information, that it was untenable. He had pledged himself, and would hive been glad to have met his lordship on that charge. With respect to the bill, his lordship said, it was too late to discuss the policy of it, after passing the Bank of England restriction bill. The Bank of Ireland must be restricted, as long as the bank of England is. And it would be as unjust to demand of the Bank of Ireland to pay in cash, as to make that demand on the country private Banks. He had lost a great deaf, as well as others, by the discount, He did not mean to trouble their lord-hips further; but he felt himself called upon to say thus much, by what fell from the noble lord.
Lord King
rose to explain. He had never pledged himself to bring forward a charge against his Majesty's officers in Ireland, for paying at par. He only required to know the fact; without stating the use he meant to make of it. As to what he said to night on the point of paying at par, he only observed incidentally, that those officers pay themselves at par, which was acknowledging that Bank of Ireland notes were not worth as much as they were issued for; and also, that they might have paid others at par as well as themselves.
Lord Grenville
said, the noble Earl had made a strange assertion, when he said, it would be as unjust to ask the Bank of Ireland to pay in cash, as to make the same demand of the private and country banks. His lordship did not seem to be aware, that the legislature had never interfered, and God forbid it ever should, to enable private banks to pay their own issues in a depreciated circulation. To the noble lord who opened the debate, the country was highly indebted for bringing forward the discussion. He agreed with the noble, lord, that much good had resulted from former discussions on this subject. The industry and talents employed by his lordship on this intricate question, had afforded much light to every impartial person, As to the
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Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that the arguments produced by the noble lord did not, in his opinion, warrant the conclusion which was attempted to be drawn. An investigation into the affairs of the Bank of Ireland would, in the present circumstances of the country, produce an injurious rather than a beneficial effect. No case had been made out which was sufficient to justify such an interference. The inconveniencies which it would produce, and the alarm which it would excite throughout the country, would far more than counterbalance any supposed advantages which would attend it. The bill of restriction which it had been found necessary to continue for some years past, was, he was ready to confess, not a measure in itself desirable, but which was found necessary to prevent greater inconveniencies than if such a bill had not passed. The experience of a few years had pointed out the expediency of such a measure, nor did he apprehend it was politically safe and adviseable in the present state of warfare, and when the minds of many were alarmed with the threats of invasion, to revert to the old system of admitting payments in specie to be demanded of the bank. It was true, that a considerable increase in the quantity of notes had been issued by the Bank of Ireland since the measure of restricting the payment in specie, had been adopted. It was to be observed at the panic time, that this did not produce a proportionate decrease in the quantity of the current coin, and this his lordship thought could be clearly proved from an examination of various official documents, some of which lie held his hand, and from facts which had occurred in the history of coining in this country.—In the year 1793, the number of provincial banks were at least 400, and within a given period after the restriction was laid on, they were number from o50 to 360. Me contended, that the paper circulation did not tend to drive the coin out of the country. A diminution of the cash in the country, to whatever degree it may occasionally take place, was atributable to very different causes: if may arise tiara the balance of trade and of payments, which, as they were in favour or against a country, tended either to extract cash or to cause an influx of it. The demands for coin at the Clint were, during his Majesty's reign, and more especially the latter part of it, incomparably greater than at any former periods: during the present reign, the coinages exceeded 64,600,000
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The Earl of Carnarvon
said, that none of the arguments of the noble lord who had just sat down, satisfied him of the necessity of the measure now proposed for the adoption of their lordships. The restriction in question was adopted only as a temporary measure, and as a remedy adapted to the then circumstances of the country, but no argument could from thence be inferred, that this restriction was not to be removed as soon as possible. He differed from the opinion which the noble lord seemed to adopt, as if the forced circulation of paper currency would not force the circulation of specie out of the kingdom; for, as soon as the latter got out of circulation, it would no doubt, be sent abroad, although it would, no doubt, return again, not as coin, but as bullion. The restriction on the Bank, though at first adopted as a temporary measure, yet, from its having been renewed year after year, would naturally produce the effect of inducing the Hank not to keep so much ready cash as it would otherwise do; and this very circumstance was one cause of the scarcity of the circulating medium. His lordship contended that before this bill passed, evidence ought to be produced, that she causes which imposed the restriction upon the Bank at first, still continued. It seemed clear enough that these renewed restrictions had not attained the end originally proposed, namely, the re-taining, within the kingdom, a sufficient quantity of the circulating medium for the public service, nor would this end be answered till the Bank renewed its payments. And with respect to Ireland, if it should appear that the situation in which that country found itself, was owing if the previous restrictions which had been imposed on the Bank of England, this, his lordship said, was an additional reason in his mind for altering
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Lord Auckland
supported the motion. He considered the present state of the Bank, both of England and Ireland, as a solecism in the history of finance. There was no less than 20 millions of paper in circulation, for which the holders could only require payment in the same kind. He confessed when the measure of the Bank restriction was first adopted, he did not foresee that at the distance of 7 years they would be again discussing the same measure.—With regard to the situation of Ireland, its paper was in a most unfortunate state, and he was very happy to find that a committee had been moved for in another place, by a right hon. gent, of the greatest talents (Foster), and who thoroughly understood the subject. If it were possible to afford any Parliamentary relief to Ireland, he was sine there was no person more able to point it out than the right hon. gent, to whom he alluded.—He did not agree with those who thought that no advantage could result from the appointment of committees of this kind, for if they were not able to suggest every practical measure that could be adopted, at least they pot the House in possession of facts that could be depended upon, and upon which they might from their judgment.—With regard to the state of exchange of Ireland, for the last 5 years, mote money had flowed into Ireland from this country, than had been drawn from it, in consequence of the lo ins which she had made in this country, and the balance of trade, if carefully examined, would not, he was sure, be found to be against Ireland. Therefore, it was not a real exchange against Ireland, but a depreciation of her paper, because if a person were to pay a hundred pounds in Ireland, in Bank of England notes, or a hundred guineas, he would obtain a draft upon England for the whole amount, without any deduction. With regard to the bill before the House, he should give his vote for going into the committee, because, in the present situation of affairs, he did not see how the restriction could be taken off the Bank of Ireland.
Lord Carysfort
was against the bill, considering the present circumstances of both countries. When the restriction of the Bank of England was first laid on. the notes issued by it amounted to between 6 and 700,000, but now they amounted to more than 2 millions. The difficulty would be greater now to the Bank it the restriction were taken off; but whilst it was to be taken into consideration, on the one hand, the loss which the Bank of Ireland would sustain by resuming payment in specie (and in which case it ought to have the assistance of the
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The Lord Chancellor
conceived, that few of the observations which had been entered into by noble lords, had application to the question then before the House, which was, whether the present bill should go in to a committee? And what was the object of that bill? Nothing more than to continue in Ireland a regulation which had been adopted, and still continues in Gt. Britain; and which, while it exists in one country, must exist in another. He should consider himself as doing the greatest injustice and injury, not
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 5, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. Adams brought up the
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[MALT DUTTIES.]—
Mr. Western
said, that an apprehension having prevailed than the duties on Beer were intended to he reduced, and an additional duty laid on Malt, he wished to be informed whether any such measure was in contemplation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had no hesitation in giving the hon. gent. an explicit answer. There was no intention on the part of Ins Majesty's ministers to propose any additional duties on Malt, nor any reduction of those on Beer.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 6, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Counsel were heard at some length relative to the appeal cause from the Court or Exchequer in Ireland: William Stewart and others
v.
[IRISH BANK OF RESTRICTION BILL.]—
Their lordships then went upon the order of the day for committing the Bank of Ireland Restriction bill, and accordingly the House resolved into a committee, Lord Walsingham in the chair.
715
Lord Auckland
took the opportunity afforded by the reading of one of the clauses, to offer a few observations upon the measure. He was of opinion that some limitation should be set to the issue of the Bank of Ireland paper; and he should have felt it a serious public duty to have called the attention of the House forcibly to the subject, were it not that the provisions in the bill set his mind at ease, under the present circumstances, upon that part of the subject. Of that clause which empowered the legislature to alter, modify, or repeal the bill, in the course of the present session, he particularly approved. Without these salutary provisions, he was open to acknowledge, that he should feel some apprehensions respecting the issue of Irish Bank paper: the excessive issue of which, he entertained no doubt, was the principal cause of the great depreciation of the currency in that part of the United Kingdom. He calculated there was at present six times the amount of paper in circulation that there had been prior to she restriction upon the Bank; indeed, that an excessive issue should cause a depreciation, resulted from the very nature of things, as a glut in (he market of any commodity tended to lower the price.
Lord Hawkesbury
expressed his coincidence in opinion with the noble lord, as to a part of his observations, but not with respect to the whole of them. He was at present averse from giving an opinion their affirmatively or negatively, as to the real cause of the depreciation of the Irish currency; and in like manner, he would then refrain from stating a decided opinion upon the point of an inquiry being set on foot in that House, similar to what was instituted in the other House of Parliament. With respect to a general investigation of the subject, the inclination of his opinion was, that under the present circumstances of the country, such a proceeding would be, upon the whole, rather injurious than beneficial. He thought, however, it would be preferable to wait the result of the pending inquiry, before any proceeding or measure of importance, relative to the subject, should be adopted in that House. He was of the noble lord's opinion as to the expediency of a provision is the bill, enabling Parliament to modify or alter the measure during the present session.
Lord King
stated, that he had to propose the insertion of a cause in the bill, explanatory or a provision which had been made in the bill of restriction, originally passed in the Parliament of Ireland, and had been since regularly enacted in the subsequent
716
Lord Carleton
observed, that this was the first time he had heard of the proceedings stated by the noble lord, as far as related to the with-holding costs; possibly such decisions might have taken place in the Irish law courts, He did not pledge himself to the negative, but he assured the committee he had never heard of any such. Upon the authority before their lordships he thought it would be going too far to enact the provision; proposed by the noble lord. In the state of darkness, in that respect, in which they then were, he thought it would be preferable to let the act remain as it stood, and that they should wait until inquiries shall have been made, and the facts ascertained, previous to their taking any legislative steps upon the subject.
The Lord Chancellor
expressed his thorough acquiescence in what fell from the noble and learned lord: he thought the subject one of very serious importance; it would be preferable, as things stood, to let the bill remain as it was, than to enact the provision proposed by the noble lord. The suitors, in the alternative alluded to, had the appellants jurisdiction to resort to. His lordship also was adverse to such a step being taken, without full and adequate information on the subject, relating to the character of the administration of justice in another
717
Lord King
again rose, and made some general observations upon the injurious effects of excessive issue of paper in Ireland, as well in reference to the course of exchange, as the depreciation of the currency. Under these impressions, he proposed the introduction of a clause tending to set a limit to the issue of paper by 'he Bank of Ireland: his clause would go to fix the limit of the paper issue to the amount it was on the 25th of Nov. last, the latest period to which the accounts were made up: this would give room even for an excessive issue, as it was upwards of 2,900,000
l.
l.
Lord Hawkesbury
deemed it his duty to resist the adoption of the clause proposed by the noble lord, against which he argued, chiefly on the ground of the impropriety of legislating on such a principle, in bills of the description of that before the House. It would go to legalize and to sanction the issue of paper to a particular amount, to a degree beyond what the legislature could intend to do in such a case; and further, it would be giving an express opinion on the part of the legislature, as to the precise amount to which the issue of bills should extend. Under the present circumstance's, he thought it would be preferable to trust to the discretion of the bank directors, which he thought would be soundly used, and their issue regulated according to circumstances, which was the case with the Bank of England, sometimes more and sometimes less; fluctuating in their issues, with a reference to existing circumstances. Such a provision was the less necessary, when the controlling powers of the clauses in the bill alluded to in an early part of the discussion, were considered. He hoped the noble lord did not mean to press the clause.
Earl Darnley
said, be did not mean then to give any opinion upon the points under discussion. He entertained a favourable opinion of the Irish Bank directors, who he trusted would not make an improper use of the discretion vested in them; but he
718
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 6, 1804.
[MINUTES]—
Sir John Anderson
brought up a bill for making provision for widening the entrance into the City of London by way of Temple Bar, for erecting buildings at Snow-hill, and for raising further sums of money on the credit of the Orphan's Fund, for that purpose. Read a first and ordered to be read a second time.—The Scotch creditors bill was read a third time, passed, and ordered to be carried to the lords on the motion of Mr. Win. Dundas.—Mr. Corry moved the order of the day for the House to go into a committee of the whole House, to consider of the Irish revenue acts, as far as they related to Salt, Hops, and Coals. The House being in a committee accordingly, Mr. Corry briefly stated, that the duty on Salt which was now to be proposed, was precisely the same without any variation whatever, as he had formerly staled when that subject was before the House. The other objects were those of Hops and Coals. He then moved his resolutions, which were put and carried on the subject of Salt: after which he moved two other resolutions for a duty of 7
s.
d.
d
719
[NAVY BOARD.]—
Sir William Elford
observed, that he had some time ago, before the last recess, given notice that he should, after the recess, bring forward a motion that would have reference to the Navy Board; But since he gave that notice, various circumstances came to his knowledge, which he apprehended he could not introduce under the form of the motion as he originally intended to make it. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had also given notice he intended to bring forward a proposition relative to the naval defence of this country. He therefore wished to wait to find what the nature of that proposition was, for that tinder the discussion of it, he might possibly introduce what he had formerly intended upon this matter; he would wait for that opportunity; and if he could not then to what he intended, he should give another notice of the time he should bring it forward.
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved the recommittal of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill. The House resolved itself into a committee, in which a variety of amendments were made. Some of the most prominent of the amendment are the following.—An amendment proposed by Mr. Pitt, for an alteration in the expression in one of the exemption clauses, from 24 days service, to be returned in three muster-rolls, at a distance of four months between each, to 24 days service within the year, without specifying the particular time, as a necessary claim to exemption.
Mr. Pitt
proposed another amendment, the purport of which was, that the lord, lieutenants of counties, or other persons who have the regulation of the ballots for the militia and other forces, should be instructed to apportion the quotas of men to be raised in each district with a view to the number of volunteers that were raised within the district, and not by the circuitous mode of drawing off the population, then admitting of exemptions on account of service in the volunteer corps, and recurring to another
720
Lord Castlereagh
threw out for the consideration of members more conversant with the progress of balloting, than he was, how any volunteer who might resign or be discharged, and who might have been previously balloted, and exempted in consequence of his being a member of a volunteer corps, was to disposed of; that is to say, whether such person was to go to the proportion of the parish to which he might originally belong, or was to become the property of the country? This was a case which according to his judgment, ought to be decided on by Parliament.—After a few words from Sir W. Geary, the words "or other misbehaviour," as proposed by Mr. G. Vansittart were added to the clause.
Mr. Rose
was of opinion, that no such courts martial could be regularly instituted, unless when the volunteers should be on permanent duty, because the order for executing any courts martial must be issued by the commander in chief, who could have no control over the volunteers until called out into actual service.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said, that the clause was framed on the same principle as that which prevailed in the militia, among whom the description of persons who were alluded to in the clause wire subject to be tried by martial law, even when the militia were in a disembodied state.
Mr. Rose
stated, that he had heard it. observed that courts martial could not he legally instituted to try any persons belonging to the militia when they were in a disembodied state.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
referred the right hon. gent, to the 42
d
To a question, whether it was intended to
721
Mr. Secretary Yorke
replied, that this subject was under consideration, and that he was not yet able to say how the allowance, which it was deemed expedient 10 make to the description of persons alluded to, was to be provided for; whether by an assessment upon the parish or united parishes to which the volunteer corps might belong, by a general county rate, or in any other, or what way.
Mr. Tierney
proposed, that the armourers of volunteer corps should also be subject to he tried by martial law.—To this amendment Mr. C. Wynne and Mr. Curwen objected, and upon the recommendation of Mr. Yorke, the consideration was postponed for the present.
Mr. Raine
asked, whether it was intended that this clause should comprehend such Serjeants, &c. as were paid by the corns to which they belonged, or by their commanding officers, as well as those who received their pay from the public purse?
Mr. Secretary Yorke
observed, that the clause was not new, but perfectly the same as that which had been enacted in the 42d of the King.
Mr. C. Wynne
said, that if the law was old it was rather surprising that he should have been told at the office of the right hon. gent., to which he had some lime since occasion to resort, respecting the conduct of a certain drill Serjeant who had actually attempted to stir up mutiny in a volunteer corps, that such drill serjeant could not be tried by martial law.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
recollected the case alluded to by die hon. gent., and that the reason of the reply which was given upon that case was, that the drill serjeant, respecting whom the complaint was preferred, did not belong to the corps, but was merely employed to instruct it.
Sir W. Geary
here took occasion to observe, that it was improper that any person in arms should have regular pay from any other source than that of government.
Upon the clause being read, that any volunteer who should not come forward in the event of invasion or rebellion, should be treated as a deserter,
Lord Ossulstone
proposed the addition of these words, "when she same shall be signified" by his Majesty's proclamation.—This amendment was adopted.
Mr. Pitt
then brought forward his promised proposition, that the volunteers should be invited to go on permanent duty, for the purpose of improvement, for any time from
722
Colonel Elford
objected to it as an improper interference with the royal prerogative, which could, in the event of invasion, call his subjects to arms, and place them under the command of such officers as it might be his pleasure to appoint.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
stated, that an exemption from such an operation of the royal prerogative, was one of the conditions upon which the volunteers had originally engaged to serve.
General Tarleton
took occasion to observe, that, as he had been informed, there was a difference of opinion between the right hon. gent, who brought this measure forward, and most of the colonel commandants of the volunteer corps, as to some points of law by which the volunteer system was supposed to be regulated; if that was so, the better way would be for that right hon. gent, to state his opinion upon the law to the committee, in order that the matter might be settled, and all disagreements done away.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said, that the law upon the subject to which the hon. general had referred, was not at all doubtful. When out on actual invasion, the volunteers, like all other parts of our military force, would be under the command of general officers of the line, but not unless they were out. They had, however, consented in many instances to be in some measure under the command of officers of the
723
General Tarleton
said, that the opinion he had upon that subject he should carry with him out of the House to night but if what he had suggested could be of any service to the country, he should be glad of it. When lie came to speak upon this subject hereafter, he should have an opportunity of praising or of commenting upon this system, as it should appear to him to be right.
Mr. Pitt
observed upon one of (he clauses, it was there proposed to put volunteers under the command of general officers when they were called out, which they would be in considerable numbers in the various districts of this country, for he knew of nothing so likely to improve them materially in their military exercise. Now, considering the different districts in which they were dispersed, as many of them should be, and he hoped they would he, put on permanent duty as much as possible, they should, therefore, be under the command of an officer of the line. The general rule was, that they were to be put under the command only of a general officer; now, considering the variety of cases in which they might be out, and the different districts all at once, it might be impossible to provide for each of them a general officer to be their commander; in which case it might be extremely convenient to put them under the very respectable command of inspecting officers, who were below the rank of general officers, and, therefore, he should move that the words of the clause should run thus, "such general or other field officer."
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said, it was perfectly clear that lieut. generals were general officers according to military definition; and this was a point which depended wholly on his Majesty, for he might at his pleasure commission his adjutants general officers, for his Majesty might, beyond all doubt, create the office of adjutant general; there was such an officer now in France. No doubt his Majesty might give such a rank, and to as many adjutants as his Majesty might think proper, and then they would all take the rank of adj. general, and be to all intents and purposes general officers, and that this was within the general prerogative of the crown, was a matter not
724
Lord Castlereagh
seemed at first rather inclined to think the words proposed were necessary, but on hearing his right hon. friend (Mr. Yorke) again, his lordship declared himself satisfied that the words were unnecessary.
Mr. Pitt
agreed that there was no difficulty whatever when the volunteers were called out for actual service; (hat was removed by what was said by the Secretary of State, but what he wanted to apply his amendment to was, that of the volunteers being called out, not for actual service, but permanent duty for awhile, in order to improve them in their military exercise. The question was, whether there were sufficient numbers of general officers to command all the volunteers who might assemble and remain on permanent duty, in ail the dispersed districts of the country? Now, he thought there would be a great difficulty to find general officers of this sort for them all, and, therefore, the words were necessary for the purpose of admitting other field officers as well as general officers to such commands: and it did not appear to him that there would be any inconvenience in placing them under either the command of a general or other field officer, ranking above the command of the corps; this would not. create any difficulty. And this species of military superintendence
725
Mr. C. Wynne
was anxious, that military officers of experience should be appointed to direct the operations of the volunteers; the necessity of attending to this must be obvious, for whatever knowledge the gent, who had command in the militia might have of military business (and he believed that most commanders of that body were well acquainted with that subject), he could very safely say, that the volunteer officers were extremely deficient. For himself he would confess, that although a col. in the volunteers, he knew nothing at all of military matters, and he had no doubt that there were many gents, in the House whose candour would urge them to make the same confession, and with equal truth.
Lord William Russell
expressed his wish that the conditions upon which the volunteers had originally engaged their services, should not in the smallest instance be violated.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
proposed to postpone the further consideration of this amendment until the report should be brought up, in order that inquiries should be made, how far the adoption of it would be consistent with strict military principle. This, he thought the more necessary, as be understood that a doubt existed among some militia colonels whether they should, in any case, be placed under the command of any military officer below the rank of a general; and the adoption of this amendment, he apprehended, would tend to confirm that doubt, which ought the more to be guarded against, as it was desirable to apply the same principle to the militia and the volunteers.—The amendment was accordingly postponed.
On the clause td enable commanding officers of volunteer corps to discharge volunteers for non-attendance, &c,
Mr. Rose
proposed to leave out these words, "and each volunteer officer shall report the name of the person so discharged to the deputy lieutenants of the district, and to the parish assessor, in order that he may be liable to the ballot, &c." The right hon. member stated his reason for this motion to be, that the case was expressly provided for in another part of the bill, and of course, in this instance, superfluous.
Mr. Lascelles
wished that the causes to justify a volunteer's discharge from his corps should be more specifically and accurately described, or otherwise the com-
726
Mr. Tierney
could not hear of a private's bringing an action against his commanding officer, or taking any step to compel him to state his reasons for any proceeding he might think it necessary to take for the good order and discipline of his corps.
Mr. Pitt
hoped that it was not likely any officer, who had the honour of commanding a volunteer corps would abuse his power. If any volunteer should be refractory, he would rather recommend an endeavour to reclaim him than instantaneous expulsion but that however painful, it must, if necessary, be of course resorted to. Of the clause before the committee, he altogether disapproved, as unnecessary, because he conceived that without it the commanding officer of a volunteer corps had the power of discharging any volunteer he thought proper.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
defended the policy of the clause, and in proof of its necessity mentioned, that he understood that several corps had, on their first formation, entered into resolutions, that no member should be dismissed without the consent of the majority of the corps. They therefore held an opinion, that it was highly advisable that the authoritative voice of Parliament should be sent forth to do away such doubts as might exist respecting the power of volunteer commanders to discharge any volunteer who should misbehave.
Mr. Fox
said, that the nature of the misbehaviour which would justify the discharge of a volunteer, ought, as well for the satisfaction of the commander, as for the regulation of the men to be very clearly described.
Mr. Pitt
conceived, that the power of the commanding officers ought, in this case, to be quite discretionary and unlimited.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
could not agree to the idea that commanders should be allowed to discharge men at their own option without any adequate cause; such a privilege was not allowed the commander of the regular army or the militia, and the principle would be mischievous to admit, particularly, in case the volunteers should be called into actual service, and a capricious volunteer commander might in such a case deprive the country of many effective men, and even in peace it might give room to great injustice, as it would afford the opportunity of rendering volunteers who had gone through all the routine of discipline liable to be dismissed at the will of an officer, and possibly with a view to deprive them of their exemptions.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
did
727
Mr. Fox
considered that any limit without a remedy was but idle words; for it was not mentioned how, if the limit were transgressed, the discharged volunteer was to obtain redress against his officer, and certainly a dismissal under the present circumstances might be a great grievance to a volunteer.
Mr. Pitt,
of all modes of redress, disapproved of that alluded to in the course of the debate, namely, an appeal to a court of law. It would be ridiculous to think of a court of law engaged in investigating the causes which should justify the dismissal of a man from a military corps, and the expense would be too much to encounter. He would rather have such appeals from discharged volunteers to be decided upon in a summary way by the deputy lieutenants of the county.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought, that no mistake could take place in regard to the expressions. The misbehaviour or improper conduct expressed in the clause must relate to their behaviour as members of the corps. There might be a court of inquiry to which any appeal might be made, and upon the report of which a determination might be formed.
Raine
was of opinion, that the reasons of dismissal ought to be specifically stated in every instance, in order that the aggrieved might be able to apply for redress.
Mr. Fox
observed, that misbehaviour was by no means comprehensive enough to be assigned as a general reason. Insufficiency, incapability to do the duty, from whatever cause it proceeded, might be a very sufficient reason, and carried along with it this advantage, if specified, to the person dismissed, that it would be a protection to him against the the militia and army of reserve.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
concluded from what he had heard, that it would not be agreeable JO give the commanding officer of volunteer corps an unlimited power. But a court of inquiry he thought, to which appeals might
728
Mr. Fox
wished to know what the words proposed as an amendment meant, or who was to judge of the sufficiency or insufficiency of the reasons that might be assigned. If you wish to give the commanding officer, said the hon. gent., an unlimited power, say so at once. Let us have, no more disputes with the volunteers. Let us be no longer under the necessity of consulting the opinions of the Attorney General in order to ascertain what line of conduct we shall adopt with the volunteers. It you wish them to be under the control of their commanding officers, and to be dismissed at their discretion, why are you afraid to tell them so; or I if the contrary is your wish, why not define in intelligible terms, the powers you wish to repose in their commanding officers?
The Attorney General
thought, that too I much had been already conceded. The measure which the clause proposed, instead of being a fraud, as the hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Fox) had alleged, was an instance of the good faith which government was anxious to keep with the volunteers. The commanding officer, it was true, was not required to state his precise grounds; but at the same time he could not discharge any man without assigning some grounds which might be afterwards a subject of complaint, if the person discharged found himself agrieved. He thought the clause with the amendment ought to stand as at present, as the persons who might think themselves aggrieved had the power to complain.
Mr. Fox
thought that such a system would lead to perpetual litigation, as actions might be brought in such cases for pecuniary losses.
Lord W. Russell
was in favour of the commanding officer being obliged to assign the specific reasons that might lead him to dismiss any man.
Dr. Laurence
thought that the clause with the amendment proceded upon a principle that was not military, and inveighed at considerable length against that mixed and indeterminate system which seemed to be too much countenanced by the spirit of the bill. He wished ministers to go to the extent either of the one system or the other.
Mr. Pitt,
upon the question being again put, moved that the whole clause be rejected but the first two lines.
729
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
deprecated the idea of dividing the House on a question of his nature. He hoped the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) would not insist on a division, as the question was of so delicate, and, in some respects, intricate a nature. For his own part, he was not ashamed, after all that had been said by the learned gent. (Dr. Laurence), to express his doubts on a question which he had never viewed so nearly as to be able to judge of its effects. He thought it, therefore, the duty of the House not to come to any discussion at present, but to avail themselves of the interval between this and the report, to consider the subject more maturely. He would ask his right hon. friend, (Mr. Pitt) if it was consistent with his principles to debar gentlemen from considering the subject, and to hurry on an immediate decision without regard to the many consequences it might occasion; to decide rashly a question on which the volunteer interests, the very fate, indeed, of the volunteer corps, might ultimately depend. He was thoroughly convinced that it was not the will of the volunteer corps that a discretionary power of an unlimited extent should reside in their commanding officers. Fie wished to have leisure to deliberate before a keep that might be attended with such disastrous consequences. Should a division be insisted on, which he hoped would not, he should be able to-morrow to look back with satisfaction on the vote which he was determined to give, that the clause should stand as it is at present with the amendment already moved. At the same time, he by no means pledged himself to the House that he would adhere to the opinion he had now stated, should he acquire any new information on the subject. The committee have already recognised the principle on which the clause is founded, he thought it necessary, therefore, not to precipitate a subject of so much importance, and on which there was room for so much doubt, while the general principle was acknowledged by all.
Lord G. Cavendish
thought the clause ought not to be retained, as it neither was satisfactory to the House, nor appeared to correspond with the opinion of ministers themselves.
Mr. Fox
animadverted on the mode of reasoning pursued by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They were all of one opinion, indeed, in regard to the principle, but that opinion seemed to be that the clause in question meant nothing. They were all of opinion that an unlimited power should not be vested in the commanders of the volunteer corps: but the question was, how to apply to prac-
730
After some observations from Mr. Bragge, General Maitland, and some others, the question of amendment was again put; and a division being called for, the gallery was cleared about ten o'clock.
For the Amendment,
101
Against it,
87
Majority,
14
On the clause relative to the right of volunteers to resign,
Mr. Pitt
observed, that there ought to be some time allowed for the notice of resignation, in order to prevent persons from withdrawing in consequence of momentary disgust; and 2dly, to afford the means to commanding officers of obtaining some other person to fill up the vacancy.—After a few words from Mr. Sec. Yorke and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was agreed that 14 days notice should be given after the first of April, the power of resignation in the mean time to remain uncontroled.
731
Sir Robert Lawley
observed upon the hardship which would result to a servant, who being inrolled in a volunteer corps, quitted his master's service, and went into another part of the country, and inrolled himself in another corps, whilst, in the mean time, he might probably be called upon to serve (having been previously balloted) in the militia or army of reserve. He thought that if a person inrolled himself in another volunteer corps, within one month after withdrawing from the former, he should be exempt from the effects of the ballot.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said it was his intention to propose a clause relative to tills object.
Mr. Pitt
thought it but fair, if individuals were trained 24 days, and afterwards resigned, that they should not be liable to actual service in the militia or army of reserve, unless when the corps to which they previously belonged were called out into the field.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
explained, that the liability to serve referred in the first instance only to the filling up of vacancies. In cases where for non-payment of subscriptions or fines resignation is refused, an appeal, as the bill formerly stood, was to be given to the lords lieutenants and deputy lieutenants of different counties.
Sir W. W. Wynne
saw great inconvenicies arising from this clause, if it were not materially altered. It would, in many cases, be necessary for officers of volunteer corps to go forty or fifty miles to attend an appeal, which would be a very great inconvenience. He proposed, therefore, to extend the right of appeal to magistrates and justices of the peace in the several divisions, sub-divisions, and places where the particular volunteer corps were situated.—The amendment was adopted accordingly.
The clause regulating the allowances to be given to volunteers when on actual service, occasioned a long discussion.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
stated his intention to introduce a clause, the effect of which would be, to deduct one guinea from the two guineas to be allowed, from the allowance to corps which have already received an allowance of one guinea, on being called out into actual service.
Mr. Pitt
objected to this arrangement. He understood that 24,000 men had been already on permanent duty, and he thought 24,000 guineas a trifling consideration when compared with the benefits to be derived from these corps again assembling for the same purpose. These corps which had assembled on permanent duty, were, he believed, chiefly situate in those parts of the
732
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the corps which had already assembled on permanent duty, had not been called out for the purpose of learning discipline, but to perform garrison duty; he, therefore, agreed that if they assembled again on permanent duty, they ought to receive a similar bounty.
General Maitland
thought that the bounty ought to be regulated by the number of days of actual service. If the volunteers received such large bounties for service, there was danger that jealousy might be created among the regular troops. He suggested the propriety of allowing only 3s. 6d. for seven days service, 10s. 6d. for 14 days, and a guinea where it extended to the whole 21 days. By such an arrangement he was convinced that the inconveniencies alluded to would be avoided. Unless this was done, it had the appearance of giving the volunteers double pay to allow them such large bounties.
Mr. Pitt
could not at all admit this inference. When men first entered into the army, they might receive a bounty of 15 or 20 guineas. They thus had the means of living more comfortably the first year of their service than in any one subsequent. But it could not be seriously urged that they were for the first year allowed double pay. He disapproved of the proposition of placing the money allowed in the hands of the commanding officer, to be expended in necessaries. He thought it much preferable to let it be given in the form of a direct bounty. It was proper that the individuals called out should, by receiving the money in this way, be enabled to dispose of it either in procuring more comfortable living, or in saving it for the use of their families. This was the mode of giving the allowance by far the most calculated to encourage offers of actual service.
733
Sir W. Pulteney
was an enemy to any money being given for the pay of volunteers. It was not by money, but by the principles and spirit of the people, that voluntary service could be obtained. We must, to be enabled to defend the country, have immense numbers of men in arms, and these numbers we had not money to procure. There were many other ways of disposing of our money without paying the volunteers, and with all the economy that could be used, the House might depend on it the public purse would be pretty well drained.
Mr. Pitt
allowed, that from the habits of his life he could not be supposed so well qualified to judge of the application of money as the hon. baronet; but he must be permitted to say, that the saving now proposed, was one, which neither wisdom or policy could suggest. He entertained no idea that there was any want of spirit in the volunteers of this country; but this spirit alone, without proper encouragement, could not produce voluntary service adequate to the extent of the danger which threatened us. Many individuals might be very willing to enter on actual service, who could not do so without material inconvenience to themselves and families. To remove this inconvenience was the object to be effected by the country, and the expense of money was no object compared with the advantage obtained.—He knew the accuracy of the hon. baronet's mind, and was fully aware of his great weight, but could not help regretting his anxiety on the present occasion to prevent the saving of the expense to be incurred in paying the volunteers on actual service. The hon. baronet's opposition now was distinguished by as great obstinacy as his pertinacious resistance last year to any allowance for drilling the volunteers. He trusted that the committee would not listen to any proposition for curtailing the allowances to volunteers on actual duty.
Sir W. Pulteney
claimed at least the merit of consistency. The right hon. gent, had chosen to allude somewhat personally to his attachment to money. If the right hon. gent, attacked him on that score, he could retort on him on another, and real to the recollection of the House the extravagant, expensive, and unnecessary schemes of the right hon. gentleman's administration, and the enormous burdens to which that extravagance had subjected the country. The hon. baronet recapitulated his former observations as to the inexpediency of paying the volunteers.
Mr. Windham.
made several observations upon the point in question.—Much, had been
734
After a few observations from Mr. R. Ryder, the provision of "that a sum, not exceeding one Guinea, shall be paid by the receivers-general, &c." was agreed to by the committee.—A few of the subsequent clauses and provisions of the bill were then agreed to without observation or amendment.—On the suggestion of Mr. Secretary Yorke the committee agreed to report progress, the chairman was directed accordingly, and the House resuming, the committee was directed to proceed again on Thursday. The remaining orders were then disposed of, and at twelve o'clock the House adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 7, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Counsel were finally heard relative to the Irish Appeal, Stewart v. Young. After which their lordships affirmed the decree of the Irish court.—The bills before the House were forwarded in their respective stages: among which the
735
[MUTINY BILL.]—
On the question for the third reading of the Mutiny Bill,
The Duke of Norfolk
rose, and made some observations relative to certain provisions which had been introduced into the bill, the effect of which, and more especially their introduction into a bill such as that under consideration, he highly disapproved. The provisions to which he alluded, went to authorise the collection of tolls upon the passage of army waggons, &c. over certain bridges. Having stated his grounds of objection to such a regulation, in some detail, the noble duke observed, that the principle upon which it proceeded was a novel one, with a reference to bills of a similar description of that before their lordships. His interference was guided by no other motive than a view to the public service. Mutiny bills may be said to be regular annual bills since the establishment of a standing army, and were necessarily so, as long as that establishment continued. He did not then move to expunge the provisions in question, but he trusted what he had thrown out: would have its weight with the framers of such bills, and induce them to amend the act accordingly.—Some private business was then disposed of, and the House adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 7, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
A message from the Lords announced their consent to the Portugal Corn Indemnity Bill, the London Dock Bill, the Duke of York's Estate Bill, the Irish Bank Restriction Bill, and others.—Doctor Duigenan moved the order of the day for the commitment of the Bill for Regulating the Age at which Holy Orders should be allowed to be taken in Ireland. The Bill was accordingly committed, and ordered to be reported to-morrow.—Sir E. Hartopp brought in a Bill to enable the Peace-Officers of Leicester, at the Quarter-Sessions, to make a fair rate of taxes for that county. Read the first time.—Mr. Vansittart brought up a Bill for permitting the importation of hides, tallow, and wool, in foreign ships, on paying of the like duties as if imported in British or Irish ships. Read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.—Mr. Alexander brought up the Report of the Irish Revenue Acts Bill.—Sir William Young, Chairman of the Committee on the Ilchester
736
[MILITARY OFFICERS INCOME TAX.]—
Lord Temple,
according to notice formerly given, moved, "That there be laid before this House, an account of all sums of money assessed under the authority of the commissioners appointed to collect the duty proceeding from the military incomes of all officers on the half-pay, on the staff, or belonging to his Majesty's army, in any regiment of cavalry, artillery, infantry, royal marines, royal garrison battalions, or corps of engineers, or of the militia, from the 5th of April to the 5th of October, 1503, inclusive, so far as the said assessments refer to or concern the subaltern officers on half-pay, or in any of the said corps or regiments." He only wanted an answer to this motion from the chancellor of the exchequer, as he was not quite prepared to bring it forward on a former occasion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he should have been very sorry to have deprived the House, or the noble lord, of any information on the subject, were it not that he knew that the noble lord's object was to relieve the subaltern officers from the tax. To this he felt that it was impossible to accede, and on this ground he must oppose the motion.
Lord Temple
said, that the chancellor of the exchequer had correctly understood the grounds upon which he moved for this account, for it was certainly with a view to found a motion upon it, for relieving the
737
[IRISH INSURRECTION.]—
Sir John Wrottesley.
—I rise, Sir, in pursuance of the notice I gave upon a former night, to call your attention to a subject by no means new to the House. It has frequently been discussed incidentally, and in all these discussions there has hitherto appeared to be a material difference of opinion amongst his Majesty's ministers, as to where the blame was input able. It will not, then, be deemed surprising if his Majesty's ministers, wish all the means of information they possess, have not been able to form a decided and unanimous opinion, that there should exist also doubts in this House, and if these doubts do exist, that no individual like myself, should wish to bring forward this inquiry in a shape which, in the firm instance, will admit a wide field of discussion, and, if it meets the approbation of the House, will afford an opportunity of procuring every species of information that can tend to elucidate a transaction of such importance to the honor of the Irish government, and the safety and happiness of the Irish people.—I shall not inquire what has induced the hen. Admiral (Berkeley) to wave his motion, but I totally disclaim the intention with which he, from the most he norable motives of friendship, had been induced to bring it forward. I feel myself called upon to consider the subject on a more enlarged scale, and without wishing to throw a larger share of blame upon one part of the government, to exculpate another, that the subject should undergo a full, fair, and can did investigation. Upon any motion of inquiry relative to Ireland, it was formerly objected, that the Parliament of that country were competent to the management of their own affairs. Such an objection is since the Union, not only impossible, but appears to afford an opportunity of impressing the necessity of a strict attention to their welfare. It cannot be doubted that great sacrifices were made by the members of Ireland, and I hope no member of the British Parliament opposed that measure, without first reflecting on the important duty he took upon himself, and without a determination to feel an equal
738
must
739
us
740
any
not creating alarm
741
alarm,
"bandsomely done"
742
uncomfortable
743
was surprised
alarm.
prevent
punish
l.
744
"contemptible riot."
d
Lord Castlereagh
—Sir; if I rightly understand the hon. baronet, he has founded his motion for this inquiry upon the supposed criminal neglect or incapacity of the Irish government in regard to the insurrection of the 23
d
745
746
d
d
747
d
748
d,
l.
749
750
d
751
752
Mr. Canning
—Before I proceed. Sir, to
753
754
755
756
757
758
759
760
seeing,
foreseeing.
761
animus
animus
762
Mr. Archdall.
—Sir; I beg the attention of the House to a few observations which I am desirous of submitting to their consideration respecting the present motion. I am not a roan who wishes to imitate any other man's manner, nor follow any other man's sentiments. I rise at present partly to offer my acknowledgements to the right hon. gent. who has just sat down, for the great attention he has paid to Ireland, and for the lively interest with which he seems on the present occasion to be impressed in favour of that part of the united empire. After having said thus much, I hope I may be allowed to doubt whether any of the good purposes, intended to be obtained by the motion, are likely to be the result of it. The hon. baronet who brought it forward said, in one part of his speech, that he did not know why the hon. admiral, who originally brought it forward, had given up she question I believe, I can tell him: and my opinion is, that he meant to clear up the
763
764
Mr. Dawson.
—Sir; as I happened to be in Ireland at the time when the insurrection broke out, I hope I shall be indulged with the opportunity of shortly delivering my opinions on the subject. I am willing to give the hon. baronet every degree of credit for the purity of his intentions in bringing forward the present motion; but I think
765
766
767
768
769
Earl Temple.
—Sir whatever difference of opinion may exist as to the result of the motion of the hon. bart., there can exist only one sentiment as to the propriety of its bring brought forward. Ministers must feel gratified that the challenge which has been so often given, has at length been accepted, that the gauntlet which has been so often thrown down, has, at length, been taken up: by some of the gentlemen on the other side. The introduction of the motion must also afford satisfaction to the people of Ireland, as it must shew them, that what is connected with their interests or their safety, are subjects of the deepest interest to the Imperial Parliament. The public at large must rejoice at the discussion, as calculated to remove that veil which has, hitherto, been so studiouly I thrown over the events of the 23d of July. It is now, I believe, pretty generally agreed-that blame does exist somewhere, and it is a matter of the greatest importance that it should be ascertained in what quarter that blame lies. If ministers adhere to their former professions, it is their duty to court, Instead of resisting inquiry. This is not a question personal to Lord Hardwicke, but, if it is fairly entered into, involving the conduct of the administration here, in com-
770
771
ruat cxlum
772
General Tarleton.
—Sir; I beg the indulgence of the House while I offer a few short and temperate observations. The situation in which I was placed in Ireland, enables me to form an accurate judgment. I was placed upon the Irish staff in last spring, but I was pot ordered to join till after the explosion of the rebellion on the 23d of July. I then lost no time in repairing to Ireland. On my arrival in Dublin, some days had elapsed, and the transaction of the. 23d of July began to be viewed in different lights. I had opportunities of conversing with all parties, wish the military officers, the commander in chief, the chief secretary, the officers of the volunlunteers, in short, with all those who were best enabled to furnish me with the means of forming an opinion, and the genera impression of all I heard was, that the Irish government was taken by surprise.—If the
773
774
Mr. Secretary Yorke.
—Sir what has been just stated by the hon. general, the House cannot view in any other light than as hearsay evidence; and, perhaps, had the hon. gen. remained some time longer in the country, he might have met with further information, that might have induced him to change his opinion on the subject of the Irish government being taken by surprise. I am not anxious to oppose the motion, as I am certain that the lord lieutenant does not wish to shrink from an inquiry, and, shall, therefore, confine myself strictly to facts. I coincide in opinion with my hon. friend (Mr. Dawson), and my noble friend (Lord Castlereagh), that there is no parliamentary grounds laid for an inquiry and also, that there must be great inconvenience attending it; but still, if the House thinks proper to accede to the motion, I shall not object to it.—As facts have been referred to, I shall endeavour to set them in a right point of view. The hon. general (Tarleton) concluded with an observation relative to the recal of Gen. Fox. Now, I do not know that he was recalled. A difference of opinion had arisen between him and the lord lieut. Which; made it necessary that one of them should withdraw. Gen. Fox thought proper to return to England, and thus the matter ended.—I think it necessary, before I proceed further, to advert to the principle on which my noble relative accepted the charge which has been entrusted to him; the leading feature of which was, that a system of conciliation was to be adopted, and without indulging the idea that the diseases of the public mind were completely healed. And when; this is seriously attended to, I think the House cannot blame my noble relation for being extremely cautious in receiving information from all quarters of intended insurrection and rebellion, which might tend to create alarms, and to revive old animosities. Undoubtedly, the Irish govt. did receive information that some men, concerned in the, former rebellion, were desirous to recommence their old bad practices; but every account coincided in this, that the situation of the country was greatly improved, and was every day growing better. At this period the war broke out; and the Irish administration, combining the account of the enemy's intentions, with those of insurrections in the country, the lord lieut. suggested whether it would not-be adviseable to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act; the govt. of this country wished, however, from principles which the House will net very severely
775
776
777
778
Mr. Fox.
—Sir; I should have contented myself with offering but a very few arguments in favour of the motion of the horn bart., but some of the remarks of the right hon. gent, who has just sat down will compel me to go a little more into detail than I intended, and to preface what I intend to say, with a few preliminary observations. In some respects the right hon. gent, and myself are plated is similar situations. He has the same feelings towards one of the parties, whose name his been so often mentioned in this discussion, as I have for the other. There is another* point of similarity in regard to our wishes on the subject of this inquiry, in which, indeed, he gees beyond me: he says that lord Hard-
779
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781
782
783
784
785
786
787
788
Mr. Dallas
said, the only question before the House was, whether they would lay the foundation of an address t; his Majesty, to dismiss from his councils the person alluded to, as being incapable to render his Majesty any service? He would consider the question as it put the House into a judicial capacity. He fully recognized that great duty and privilege of the House, to inquire into the conduct of the executive government. But it was unbecoming the character of the House to institute an inquiry without a sufficient ground. Ii was not enough, in the present case, to shew after the event that something better might have been dope on the 23d of July, by the govt. in Ireland; but a strong presumption of culpable neglect must he shewn, and of sufficient magnitude to call for so solemn? proceeding, as an inquiry by Parliament. He could of forbear to express ills super at the time of bringing this motion before the House, If the arguments of the friends of use rejection are conclusive, how do they justify their neglect in delaying this great and necessary inquiry? The House, if those arguments be good, is more culpable than the government of Ireland. Of the hon. gent. opposite to him, (Mr. Fox), it may be, truly should, that no man has a more acute understanding. Yet he, with all the motives arising from his regard
789
790
Dr. Laurence
said, the learned gentleman had taken up the question as a counsel for a person accused, who keeps all the arguments against him out of sight. The House could only have general evidence to induce them to go into the inquiry. All the documents that would be evidence, were in the possession of the other side, and his hon. friends could not produce them. The learned gent. considered the House as a Grand Jury; and as such, he contended, they had sufficient evidence to grant the inquiry. He had very much at heart the preservation of that power in the House of inquiring into the acts of the executive govt. and those; of its servants. For this reason he had voted: against the administration he had general supported, in the case of Admiral Colpoys, because the proper evidence was not before the House. He deprecated the practice that had lately so entirely obtained, or denying evidence to the House. He maintained, that no time had been lost by those who professed themselves friends to the inquiry. The question had been brought forward soon after the 23d of July, but was given up at the instance of ministers, who thought the. advanced state of the session precluded the proper means of information. Since that period, the. conduct of the govt. of Ireland had been animadverted upon, by an hon. member (Mr. Fox), during be discussion of the army estimates Another hon. member, a relation of the gallant officer who commanded in Ireland, had also given notice of a motion; and the worthy baronet who then felt it his duty to take it up, had certainly lost no time in bringing the question forward.—As the darkness of the night
791
The Attorney General
could not too strongly call the attention of the House, to the necessity of having a grave case made out prima facie, before any inquiry could be instituted. The hon. gent, opposite to him (Mr. Fox) had called the letters and papers referred to, in justification of the govt. of Ireland, garbled intelligence; but he felt no difficulty in saying, that if there ever was an instance in which good and satisfactory documents were produced, that instance was the present case. For his own part, he was ready to oppose the motion; not from; he arguments and statements which those documents sniped him with, but from the grounds advanced by the hon. baronet himself, who had opened the discussion; and if ever the govt. had been surprised, it did not follow that they were, on that account, to be aroused of negligence, and the want of vigilance and precaution. When gentlemen take of preventive measures, they did rot seem consider, that although pantries of fierce and foot might have secured the tranquillity the city of Dublin, by doing constant duty every night, yet such measures of pretention would nave left the rebellion lurking in the heart of the city, if, as the fact was, the rebellion had not lasted for a single hour, what grounds were, there, he would ask, for forming any correct opinion of its magnitude? Yet enough, had, undoubtedly, been disclosed, to shew the disposition of this disaffected, their connexion with persons who had arrived from France, and the nature of their plans. Was it then going too far to arm, by the adoption of subsequent measures, government with powers which were calculated to guard against and counteract any new insurrections after the explosion of the last. If the necessary consequences of the motion were to be the removal of the lord lieut., and of officers entrusted with important military commands, those consequences alone would be a sufficient argument against its being entertain-
792
Lord De Blaquiere
rose at about 2 o'clock in the morning. He said, that before he went into the question he would crave the indulgence of the House for a moment, to make a short observation on what had fallen from an hon. friend of his (Mr. Dawson).—It was with sorrow and pain he had heard the hon. gent, express any jealousy upon the interference of English members in the concerns of Ireland. Such a proceeding ought to reconsidered not as an evil, but a benefit arising out of the union of the two kingdoms, as the temperate and dispassionate interference of unprejudiced men would be ever attended with the most solid advantages to that country.—He said, if it had been his good fortune to have been noticed at an earlier I hour, he should have endeavoured to have made some reply to the speech delivered by the noble lord at the beginning of the debate, but those items which he meant to have questioned were now gone by, leaving only one general impression upon his mind, that the noble lord had fallen into that error which the wisest logicians have often experienced; namely, that he had in fact proved to much. The noble lord had laid it down and asserted, that the conduct of the Irish I government on the 23d of July was better titan well—whereas he (Lord De Blaquiere) thought that the government of Ireland on that day was worse, infinitely worse, than bad &—His noble friend and he, were, therefore, completely at issue upon the point, and t a war of assertion was to be continued as it had begun. But suffer me, said Lord De Blaquiere, to call the attention of the House
793
794
bow
795
796
Mr. Windham,
thought, that the House was much indebted to the noble lord who spoke last, n>t only for the important facts which he had furnished and the useful reflexions with which he had accompanied them, but for the pleasantry he. had introduced, and which, besides being very refreshing after so long a debate, was^ perhaps, the most forcible way of treating the question. There were some things so extravagant in their own nature, that nothing but ridicule could reach them
"Safe from the bar, the pulpit, and the throne,
"But touched and sham'd by ridicule alone."
797
798
799
"Where God the Father turns a school divine,"
800
Mr. Hawthorne
spoke to order, and observed, that the correspondence alluded to by the right hon. gent, had no connexion with the question before the House.
Mr. Windham
contended that he was strictly in order, as the question of martial law, which was the consequence of die 23d of July, naturally led to the consideration of the opinions of the noble and learned lord, who, from his high situation, was presumed to take a chief part in the administration of public affairs, and who, at the time of passing the law in question, was expressly stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer as a security that no improper use would be made of it.
Mr. Alexander
spoke to order, and trusted the right hon. gent, would see the impropriety of putting the noble lord, as it were, on his trial, when the motion related;
801
Mr. Fox
maintained that the right hon. gent, was in order.—A general cry of chair& chair& prevailing,
The Speaker
declared, that he did not see the connexion between the correspondence alluded to and the question; but as the House had suffered the subject to be introduced and commented upon, other gentlemen might be allowed the same indulgence. Much would, however, depend upon the manner in which it might be treated.
Mr. Windbam
then resumed his speech, and having recapitulated some of his former statements, he concluded with observing, that he could not conceive a graver case, or one which pressed itself more strongly for inquiry on the judgment of the House,
Mr. Tierney
said, that he could not but blame the right hon. gent., (Mt. Windham) who was formerly one of the most eager opponents to all inquiry, but who was now its most zealous champion. He knew that there were occasions where sentiments might be changed, without any abandonment of principle. Some gentlemen might smile, but his conduct, he trusted, was, and ever had been such, as to meet and defy every inquiry. He proceeded to remark, that the gentlemen on the other side had shewn little decorum in their change of opinion, and was surprised that those who had formerly sanctioned a system of severity in Ireland, should now express so great anxiety for the people of that country. It had been admitted that no imputation was thrown on the hon. general alluded to, and there were certainly no circumstances in the conduct of the Irish govt. which could be supposed to render the motion necessary. There seemed to be no complaint against the Irish govt., but that they had succeeded in tracing out treason in all its ramifications, and the only objection he should have expected from the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) was, that the traitors had been punished by a vigour within, rather than a vigour beyond the law.—The present motion appeared to him to be brought forward, for the purpose of bringing those together, whom it was difficult to reconcile, and the circumstance reminded him of the story of goose, the fox, and the bag of corn he principal merit of the present motion, was, that it contrived to unite all parties in a common vote: gentlemen who could agree on no two subjects were thus made to vote all one way, and carry on appearances of unanimity against ministers more specious than teal. It was
802
Mr. Fox,
in explanation, said, that the paragraph in Faulkner's Journal was alluded to, not with a view of detracting from that paper, but to ascertain the character of those who might be considered as the paymasters of that Journal.
Mr. Grey,
at the late hour to which the debate had been protracted, promised not to detain the House long. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Tierney) who had just sat down, had, it seems, brought forward a charge of inconsistency against a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham). He would leave the right hon. gent, to defend himself from the charge; but must be allowed to express his opinion that such a charge came with singular propriety from the mouth of a gent., who was a perfect model of consistency& He had also read the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) a lecture on decorum, as to the manner of changing opinions, perhaps, he thought it was quite decorous in members to change over from the opposition side of the House; but utterly inconsistent with decorum to relinquish the sweets of office. The right hon. gent had challenged any person to prove one act of inconsistency in his conduct, and had produced one solitary' instance, in which, formerly, he had voted for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. He (Mr. Tierney) on that occasion, had thought the arguments used justified the vote, but certain he was, that afterwards he had expressly voted against the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, notwithstanding the rebellion of that day was not as that of the present is now described by the
803
Mr. Tierney
said, in explanation, that the insurrection was of little consequence, independent of the murder of Lord Kilwarden, which was accidental.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
perfectly concurred with his right hon. friend (Mr. Tierney) that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had changed the opinions he had entertained for the last ten years. He contended, that with respect to the disposition of some portion of the people to insurrection, the government of Ireland was by no means unapprised on the contrary, that they were fully aware that the torch of rebellion kindled in 1798, was by no means totally extinguished, though with respect to the general disposition of (he country, they were confident of a disposition to tranquillity and loyalty; and that, although the govt. of Ireland, subsequent to the peace, did not call for the renewal of those acts as indispensably necessary under the general disposition of the country, yet they suggested that the revival would be expedient in a partial degree, as placing in the hands of govt. a power to repress any occasion& symptoms of an insurrectionary tendency; and he incipit that the murder of Kindled and of Col Brown, were the only prominent characteristics of the outrage which burst forth, that could be viewed as of state importance, however lamentable the loss of many other valuable lives on that melancholy occasion. But, that any blame was as tempted to be imputed to the gallant officer in question, he utterly denied. He would ask the members of the House of Commons, whether they could put their hands upon their hearts, and think they were doing their duty in agreeing to this motion.
General Torleton
remarked, that the soldiers in Ireland were so dispersed in the barracks, that in men constituted the main body of one regiment the 64th. He could have
804
Mr. Calcraft
referred Mr. Tierney to his own political life for instances of inconsistency. As to torture, or at least what he formerly called torture, the hon. and right hon. gentlemen now sitting near him were the most forward in justifying its establishment and practice. If the facts already before the House, and of public notoriety namely, the murder of the lord chief justice, the murder of 16 citizens of Dublin, and other enormities, were not adequate grounds of further inquiry, such grounds could never be obtained.
Mr. Dent
rose amidst a strong call for the question, and replied to that part of Mr. Tierney's speech which referred to what he called party management in bringing forward this question. He was for an examination into the Conduct of government with respect to Ireland, and would support the motion for inquiry, which, in other instance, he observed, the Chancellor of the Exchequer had always affected to court.
Colonel Hutchinson
felt it necessary, even late as the hour was, to offer a few observations upon this subject; because, as he certainly meant to give a vote upon this question, he wished to assign his reasons for that vote. If the question of this night was meant to imply any censure upon the conduct of Lord Hardwicke, it certainly should not have his assent; because the to duct of that noble lord had his most hearty approbation, it it was meant to convey any censure upon the government of both countries, as with respect to the particular occasion, he should feel equally averse to vote for it, I convinced, as he was, that blame ought not to attach: but, if it was directed to an inquiry into the conduct of his Majesty's ministers, for not having directed (heir investigations to the slate of Ireland, with a view to move the cause of discontent, and thereby prevent house lamentable ebullitions of popular discontent, which unhappily agitated the country, it should have his most hearty concurrence, because he had repeatedly endeavoured to impress upon his Majesty's ministers the necessity of such an investigation, but without effect; and because he thought their resistance to such inquiry most extremely culpable. In addition to this conduct he had to arraign that of a noble lord (Redesdale) at the head of the taw department of Ireland, in the prorogation of those letters which had appeared in the correspondence between had
805
Sir John Wrottesley
said he would take up the time of the House but for a few moments, by way of reply. He left his personal motives to be judged of by the House, from a knowledge of his character. It was in vain to make professions. He knew gentlemen, who said they took places from patriotic motives, but others were not satisfied of that fact, and thought they caught at them from low and mercenary motives. His object was certainly to implicate the conduct of both governments, relative to the transaction of the 23d July. In order to show that Gen. Fox was not duly apprized of the approaching rebellion, and that the Irish govt. were taken by surprise, he read an extract from a letter to Gen. Fox, sent at seven o'clock, 23d July, signed "A. Marsden." Was it, he asked, justifiable to protect and nourish such a man, and discharge, almost at the same moment, the gallant and meritorious officer whose conduct had been brought into question? Surely this was too weak. After recapitulating several other points of his former arguments, and she wing the insufficiency of the observations by which they were opposed, he concluded, by professing his adherence to the motion he had made.—The Attorney General and Mr. Fox said a few words in explanation. After which the question was pat, and on a division the numbers were
For the motion
82
Against it
178
Majority
96
Adjourned at half-past 4 on Thursday morning.
List of the Minority
Adair, R.
Johnstone, G.
Baker, J.
Kensington, Lord
Bankes, H.
Laurence, F.
Barclay, G.
Latouche, R.
Barclay, Sir R.
Latouche, J.
Barlow, F. W.
Lawley, Sir R.
Berkeley, Hn. G. C.
Madocks, W. A.
Binning, Lord
Mildmay, Sir H. P. St. J.
Bouverie, Hon. E.
Milner, Sir W. M.
Brooke, Lord
Moore, G. P.
Bardett, Sir F.
Moore, P.
Byug, G
Morpeth, Viscount
806
Calcraft, J.
Morris, E.
Canning, Rt. Hon. G.
North, D.
Cartwright, W. R.
Northey, W.
Cavendish, Lord G.
Ord, W.
Coombe, H. C.
Osborne, J.
Cooke, B.
Ossulston, Lord
Courrenay, J.
Petty, Lord H.
Craufurd, R.
Ponsonby, Rt. Hon.W.B.
Creevey, T.
Porchester, Lord
De Blaquiere, Lord
Poyntz, W. S.
Dent, J.
Raine, J.
Dickenson, W. jun.
Russell, Lord W.
Dillon, Hon. H. A.
St. John, Hon. St. A.
Dundas, Hon. C. L.
Scudamore, J.
Dundas, Hon. G. H. L.
Shakespear, A.
Elford, Sir W.
Spencer, Lord R.
Elliort, W.
Staney, Lord
Ellis, C. R.
Surges, W.
Fitzpatrick, Rt. Hon. R
Temple, Earl
Folkstone, Lord Viscount
Townsend, Lord J.
Fox, Hon. C. J.
Walpole, Hon. S.
Francis, P.
Ward, R.
Cower, Lord G. L.
Ward, R.
Graham, J.
Whitbread, S.
Grenville, Rt. Hon. T.
Wilberforce, W.
Grey, Hon. C.
Windham, Rt. Hon. W.
Hamilton, Lord A.
Wynne, C. W. W.
Hippesley, Sir J. C.
Wynne, Sir W.W.
Holland, H. jun.
Wrottesly, Sir J John
TELLERS.
Tarleton, General
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 8, 1804.
The various bills before the House were forwarded in their respective stages: among these, the Marine Mutiny Bill, and the Scotch Bankrupt Law Bill, the commitments of which had been severally negatived, were read a third time and passed.—Some private business was then disposed of; and their lordships, after waiting some time in expectation of a communication from the House of Commons, adjourned till tomorrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 8, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—Sir J. W. Anderson presented the Stratford-le-Bow Poor Rates Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time.—Mr. Foster moved that the committee on Irish Currency should have leave to sit notwithstanding any adjournment of the House. Ordered.—The Marine Society Fishing Company Bill was ordered to be read a second time on Tuesday fortnight.—Mr. Corry presented a petition from the commissioners of the police, in Dublin, for heave to present another petition, praying for a continuance of the duties for the support of the said police. After some observations of the Speaker relative to the orders
807
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 9, 1804.
[HIS MAJESTY'S INDISPOSITION.]—
Shortly after the meeting took place, and previously to the temporary adjournment of the House, for the purpose of affording time to the lords commissioners to robe,
Farl Fitztwilliam
rose, and addressed a va-
808
The Lord Chancellor
in answer to what had fallen from the noble earl, observed, that for any proposition coming from such a quarter, he entertained the highest respect; indeed upon such a very important topic, observations coming from any individual peer in that House, were entitled to the most serious attention. With respect to the doubts entertained by the noble earl, he could assure his lordship and the House, that in every thing connected with so grave, important, and momentous an occasion as that in question, he had proceeded with all that delicacy, deliberation, and caution which such an occasion evidently required; he had proceeded on the occasion even with fear and trembling; to speak more specifically to the point, he observed, that not satisfied with the reports and assurances of the medical attendants of his Majesty on so important an occasion, he thought it proper and necessary to have a personal interview with the Sovereign, and at which due discussion took place as to the bills which were offered for the royal assent, and which was fully expressed. He would sooner suffer his right band to be severed from his body, than in such an instance he would agree to act upon light or superficial grounds. He thought it his bounden and indispensable duty, and which he trusted he always had, and always should conscientiously discharge, to proceed in the manner he had stated: and he had
809
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Friday, March 9, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
The Speaker, attended by several members, having, pursuant to summons, proceeded to the House of Lords, announced on his return that the royal assent had been given by commission to the Mutiny Bill, the Royal Marine Mutiny Bill, the Irish Bank Restriction Bill, the Duke of York's Estate Bill, the Portugal Corn Indemnity Bill, the Greenland Wale Fishery Bill, the Scotch Creditor's Bill, and the London Wet Docks Bill.—Ordered, on the motion of Mr. Hiley Addington, that it be an instruction, to the committee appointed to consider the disputes between the masters, and journeymen of the cotton trade, that they do also consider of proper measures to prevent such disputes in future, and that they do report their proceedings, with their opinion, &c. to the House. It was also ordered that an account of the several proceedings, taken in
810
[IRISH DUTIES BILL.]—
Mr. Corry moved the order of the day for going into a committee on the Irish Duties Bill.
Colonel Hutchinson
said, it was not his intention to oppose the motion of the hon. I gent., but he could not avoid making a few I observations upon the schedule before the House. He was willing in pay every tribute to the rt. hon. gent., the Chancellor of the Exchequer of Ireland, for the candid and liberal manner in which he had conducted himself upon this occasion, but he was sorry to find that the 4 per cent, duty upon Irish exports was to be continued upon every part of the exports of Ireland. The rt. hon. gent. had himself acknowledged, on a former occasion, that the provision trade of Ireland was in a languishing condition, and he thought that was a sufficient reason why it should be exempt from the general export duty.—He then adverted to the tax upon leather, which, he said, had been kid on under an idea that it could net exceed id. per pound, but in fact it was considerably more.—The taxes on saltpetre he particularly condemned, as tending to injure the provision trade of Ireland, which was already too much on the decline; and the proposed abrogation of the drawback heretofore allowed on the exportion of foreign herrings, he was instructed to say, would be attended with serious mischief to the city of Cork, which he had the honour to represent, and which had derived a profit of not less thin 80 or 90,000
l.
811
Mr. Ker
said, that with regard to the export tax upon linen, considering it as he did as a war tax, he should certainly not oppose it; but, he wished the right hon. gent, to advert to one circumstance, which he considered as bearing hard upon Ireland. By the articles of union, if there was a surplus of any foreign article either in Great Britain or Ireland, it might be exported to the other with a full drawback of the duty: but if a merchant in Ireland wished to export tobacco, for instance, to England, he could only do it in a vessel of a certain size; this appeared to him to be an impediment upon trade. With regard to the window tax, when it was laid on in Ireland, it was always considered as a war tax, though now it was made a permanent one.
Mr. John Latouche
adverted to the state of the exchange between Gt. Britain and Ireland, and said it was a subject that called for the immediate attention of Parliament. With regard to the schedule before the House, the rt. hon. gent, had certainly attended with the utmost candour to the representations of the merchants upon the subject, and in most instances their wishes were complied with; in others, however, they were not. There were two articles particularly upon which he thought a reduction of duty ought to take place, and they were foreign oils and foreign hops, the latter he conceived ought to be admitted' to be imported free of duty.
Sir John Newport
also expressed his thanks to the rt. hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland, for the attention he bestowed upon every suggestion or objection that was made to him. But there were some
812
Mr. Hawthorne
approved of the schedule in general, but wished merely to advert to the increased duty in grocers licences. He did not know upon what ground that duty had been increased, and he did not think if it was persisted in that it would be productive of any increase of revenue.
Mr. Carry,
after expressing the satisfaction he felt at the approbation which had been expressed of his conduct by so many members from that part of the United Kingdom, proceeded to answer the different objections which had been made. He said that though these duties were now to be voted without limitation, they would of course be liable hereafter to revision, alteration, or repeal, and therefore he hoped that no apprehension would be entertained upon the idea that these taxes were to be voted permanently.—Another observation he wished to make was, that all the duties laid on in Ireland, to correspond with war duties laid on in this country, would of course cease as soon as the war ceased, and the duties were taken off in this country.—With regard to the provision trade of Ireland, it certainly did languish, but he hoped it was only for a time; the fact was, that the war-demand had ceased and the peace-demand had not begun, which was a reason for a temporary diminution of the trade; but he had no doubt but that war would soon revive, particularly as there was a large army maintained in Ireland and a large fleet on the coast, and-the consumption of provisions by them would at least compensate for the temporary decrease of the foreign trade.—With regard to the drawbacks on sugar, they certainly ought to be the same in both countries, and if there were any instances in which from any mistake they were not so, they would be rectified.—With respect to the leather trade, he
813
Mr. Dawson
observed, that the window tax, which, at the time it was laid on, was professed to be a war tax, appeared in the hill before she House among she permanent taxes. This tax the hon. member recollected, was said, at its introduction, to be pointed particularly at the disatched; for it Was remarked, that as they were not of that description of persons who would contribute to the exigencies of the state, by any tax on wine, &c. they must be made to pay for their light: and the Home would no doubt be surprised to hear, that this tax on light was much beyond the rate then levied by a similar tax in this country. The hon. member expressed his disapprobation of the tax on the export of Irish linen, which he considered to be a violation of the letter and spirit of the union; and a full confirmation of the predictions so often delivered by the adversaries of that measure, previous to its enactment; namely, that whenever the interests of the two countries should happen to come in competition, the 100 representatives for Ireland would avail very little, however well disposed towards their native country, against the 58S members who are immediately interested in the concerns of G. Britain.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
defended the measure, and said, he could not see upon what principle of justice Irish linens were to be imported free of duty, while the English linens were to pay a duty of 4 per cent.
Mr. G. Ponsonby
saw no ground for acceding to the additional tax upon Irish linen. To committee had been instituted to ascertain how far it was just or necessary. The House had nothing to proceed upon in justi-
814
Mr. Alexander
said, that it would be impossible for even England herself, with her great capital, to rival the north of Ireland in the linen trade, it was so firmly established in that article of commerce.
Mr. Foster
mid, that without entering into any detail upon the subject, he wished only to state, that they were by one act vesting a perpetual revenue in the crown of millions a year. But this was not all, there was; what was called the heriditary revenue of the I crown in Ireland, which it was proposed to dispose of without any message or assent being delivered from the throne upon the subject.
Mr. Pitt
said, he certainly was not aware of the objection which had been made by the right hon. gent, who spoke last. He was not prepared now to give a'decided opinion upon the subject, but he was prepared to say, that upon such an objection coming from such a quarter, the House ought not to proceed without very maturely considering the subject. If the right hon. gent. was not mistaken in the objection he had made, if the bill now before the House went to produce that effect, and there was no message from the Crown to authorize that proceeding, it was undoubtedly a breach of the proceedings and constitution of Parliament, and one that ought not, and he hoped would not, be passed over lightly.
Mr. Carry
was about to proceed in further explanation, and to add some further arguments, when lie was interrupted by
Mr. Foster,
who called him to order, saying, that by explanation he understood that
815
The Speaker
observed, that if it was objected to, the right hon. gent, could not be allowed to go into arguments upon a question to which he had already spoken, without the special leave of the House.
Mr. Corry
said, that for obvious reasons, and out of respect to the House, he should certainly confine himself to explanation, and be very short: what he had to say arose out of the observations of a right hon. gent, whom he never heard without great respect. He should, however, state how the matter stood. The civil list was granted in Ireland an the 33d of the sing, and these provisions which were now under discussion, were enacted in lieu of those duties which subsisted before that time. His Majesty having given up the receipts of his revenue, the heriditary dues to the Crown had merged during that time; but the right to them was not disturbed, but was to revive in full force at the expiration of the term for which the civil list was granted; thus it was, that from year to year the heriditary duties to the Crown remained as it were in abeyance, during the continuance of this arrangement between the Crown and the public, but would revive again after the time had expired during which the agreement was in force. This bill was formed on the model of other bills which had passed from year to year in Ireland from that time, and this only to render permanent that system which had been adopted and annually passed in Ireland. The right of the Crown necessarily revives when the period arrived by which the arrangement was at an end; nor was there the least intention to the contrary. Thus the case stood 911 constitutional principles. Now, a certain portion of these duties was granted annually, some of which were now inserted in this bill, which was proposed to be permanent, and a certain proportion was omitted in this bill, such as the land and malt, that was an annual measure yet; and with regard to the other duties, it was proposed that they should be permanent, and they were, the consolidated fund of Ireland, charged with the interests of the national debt and also the civil list of his Majesty, and that of the proportion which Ireland was to bear of its contribution it was bound to make to the public burthen by the union, as well as all the pensions and other parliamentary payments that were to be made. He was not aware there was any thing ill this bill, or that any thing would arise out of it, which would in any degree affect the heriditary revenues of the Crown,
816
Mr. Foster
said, he should also make a short explanation of what he had said, and that he should do by way of reply to what had been said by the right hon. gent. He had just said, that of forming the consolidated fund of Ireland these heriditary revenues had been given up by his Majesty, by a gracious message, desiring that Parliament might bring them to the public aid, and dispose of them as Parliament should think proper, and that in lieu of them the Crown had a civil list. Now, this agreement could only be binding on the Crown during the existence of the right in his Majesty. His Majesty had only a life interest in these hereditary revenues; but what was to be the effect of this bill? It was that of a perpetual disposal of these hereditary revenues of the Crown, not only during his Majesty's present, but also during every reign to eternity. He would ask, if that was parliamentary? He would ask, was it constitutional to divest the Crown for ever of its rights, without any consent from the Crown, without even so much as a message from the Crown? This was a point too clear to enter largely into it, and therefore he should not trespass any longer on the patience of the House.
Lord Castlereagh
said, he had not had an opportunity of reading this Bill, and he had no means of knowing what it contained: he did not apprehend it would have the effect stated by the right hon. gent. However, if the words in the bill should be found to go further than his tight hon. friend apprehended and had stated, it would be for the House to consider it, when the clause came to be read. The principle of the bill was clear; but as the interest of the Crown was concerned, it was important to take care that nothing should find its way into it by inadvertency, which might have the effect of disturbing the settlement made between the Crown and Parliament of Ireland, on the hereditary revenues and the civil list, as it took place on the 33d of the King. Now, how did it stand? The Irish Parliament, after this agreement with the Crown, provided that the duties given up to the Crown should be applied to the use of the public for one year, and continued them from year to year, until they had been made permanent since the union; for the practice of the Parliament of Ire hind was different from that of England in that respect. His right hon. friend had said, that on public grounds it was expedient that there duties should con-
817
Mr. Rose
wished to know whether there was in this bill, any specific provision to shew that the hereditary revenues of the Crown shall revert to the Crown, when that period should occur when there, was a demise of the Crown, for if there was no such provision in tin's bill, he doubted very much, whether the bill should have come into the House at all; and he was sure that if not, the House ought not to go into a Committee upon it, at least until a message came to the House, from the Crown, desiring them to proceed upon such a measure. As to the malt duty in Ireland, which was still an annual vote, he did not know the amount of it so as to be able to judge of the check which Parliament retained in that respect upon the executive government, by way of power to withhold the supplies from year to year. If the right hon. gent, could satisfy the House upon these two points he should be glad to hear him.
Mr. Corry
said, that accounts had been kept of the hereditary revenues distinct from the others, and he was informed that the law officers in Ireland prepared a clause for
818
Mr. Canning
said, that the first question now, was not whether there was such a clause as that which was alluded to by the right hon. gent. but whether in fact, the House could do any thing further without further explanation, or whether indeed the right hon. gent, ought not to have beta ready with his explanation before he came forward with his bill? The next question was, if there was not such a clause, what the House should allow to be done upon such a gross violation of form, and such a substantial objection in principle, so essential to the constitutional practice of the House as occurred in this bill? He put it to the hon. gent, who supported this most defective bill, whether they should not think it more decorous in them to ask leave to withdraw this defective bill, and ask leave to present another less imperfect, as the best manner in which they could atone for the unconstitutional principle on which they had attempted to proceed in the House. It was now allowed on all hands that this was a gross oversight at least; and he thought that going into a Committee to endeavour to cure the defect there, would not be proper, because it would not sufficiently mark the sense of the House
819
Mr. Fox
said, that if there was any foundation in point of fact in the objection, (he House would not cure it in a Committee, because it conk not, according to any: rule of practice or principle of the constitution, go into a Committee at all upon the bill. It was not in the legal power of the House to precede upon a bill of this kind without consent: here there was no pretence that any such consent was given. There could be no doubt whatever, that the House must negative the question, that the Speaker do now leave the chair, for the House ought to wait at least until the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who brought in the bill, knew what it contained, before they proceeded to discuss it: the right hon. gent, would hardly ask the House to wait until he himself had had an opportunity of reading it.
The Chancellor of Exchequer
said, that his hon. friend had in the course of this debate—
Mr. Foster
spoke to order, for that the right hon. gent, had already spoken upon this subject; upon which,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, I am going to make a motion, Sir., and have a right to insist on proceeding.
Mr. Foster
called to order again, for that the right hon. gent, had spoken already in this debate,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he rose for the purpose of making a motion, and he was at liberty he said to introduce that which he was about to say. He was desirous there should be no difficulty whatever in going upon this bill, and that no one should be called upon to proceed to the discussion of this bill in a Committee, without knowing what the contents of the bill were; for that reason he should move that the House should resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House upon this bill to-morrow. If the bill was withdrawn altogether there would of course be an end of it; otherwise he should negative the of the Speaker leaving the chair, with a view to move afterwards that this bill be committed to a Committee of the whole House to-morrow.
Mr. Fox
said, the right hon. gent, had claimed his right to be heard, on the ground that he v. as going to make a motion, the only ground on which he had any right to speak a second time in the debate; thus his claim was allowed in point of order, and yet after all in point of fact he did not make any motion, but only gave notice of a intended which he intended to make; and
820
Mr. Ormsby
said, that he believed this bill was precisely on the same principle and condition as bills which had formerly passed upon the subject of these duties. He did not feel himself warranted to speak 6n this bill, not having read it since it was introduced into the House: all he knew was, that the subject to which it referred, was under discussion in Ireland, among the law officers of the crown, of whom he had the honour to be one. He knew the discussion had been the subject of the King's hereditary revenue; perhaps he might be out of order in stirring what he was about to state, but lie withed to draw the attention oft the House to it. He then read the clause which had been inserted in other bills upon this subject, to shew that the rights of the? crown had always been saved in them all, as far a; related to the hereditary revenues of the crown reverting after the termination of the agreement between the crown and the public, in the 33d year of the present reign. It was for the House to consider whether the words in this clause were I sufficient to save the rights of the crown 5 I he apprehended they were, and it had I been so thought by the crown lawyers in Ireland. But whether that clause wish to be found in the present bill he would not I undertake to say. The bill was in the hand writing of two or three persons, and he I took shame to himself that he had not read it since it was laid on the table of that House. All he could say was, that the bill which was considered and perused by the crown lawyers in Ireland, of which he presentable this to be a copy, had been by them deemed sufficient to preserve entire the rights of the crown.
Mr. William Ponsonby
said, he believed this bill contained no such clause as that which had been read by the learned gent, out of another Act of Parliament. In a word, he knew of no way to proceed upon this business but that of withdrawing the present bill to make way for a better.—The question was then put, that the Speaker it now leave the chair, and negatived.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer then
821
Mr. Pitt
said, he was extremely glad that an opportunity had been given to examine into this question; but it was matter of regret that the attention of the House had not been called to this important circumstance before any progress whatever had been made in the bill, for nothing could be more important for that House to attend to than the hereditary revenues of I the crown, and that the more especially, when the measure brought forward was without the consent of the crown, and without an opportunity of discussing the contend of the bill. He was very far from pledging himself as to the opinion lie should have or this occasion; but I after what he had heard from the hon. gentleman below him (Mr. Ormsby), he had great doubts indeed whether, if the clauses in this bill were, as he had stated them to be, out of another bill, the objection to this measure would be removed, for they only related to a pair of his Majesty's revenue, instead of the whole. If so, the defect was radical; for it was a clause by I which a stated sum was to be perpetual, and set off against a perpetual revenue of a given value some years ago, but capable of increase with the increasing prosperity of the general revenue of the empire; for during the happy period of ids Majesty's reign, from that time to the present, that revenue had increased to several hundred thousand pounds, and that revenue now was much higher than the civil list for which it had been exchanged; so that by this enactment of appropriate in perpetuity the hereditary revenues of the crown, Parliament would bi doing neither more nor less than this—to abolish his Majesty's inherent claim to a permanent improveable revenue, and giving for it a fixed unimproveable sum, and that too, without any consent or intimation on the part of the crown. If this was the case, and nothing had been said to induce him to doubt it, he could not help saying, it was very unfortunate that the attention of the House had not been called to it before any progress was made in the bill; for it was matter of great importance, upon the constitutional principle, that the hereditary revenues of the crown should not be taken away by Parliament without the consent of the crown 5 that was a principle which it was impossible to be the wish of any of the King's ministers to neglect, and quite as little could it be the wish of any Member of that House.
822
[IRISH MILITIA FAMILIES.]—
Mr. Faster
said, that some days ago he mentioned a matter of serious moment to Ireland, which was, an apparent breach of faith of Parliament with the militia of Ireland. In November the militia were embodied in Ireland by order of the lord-lieutenant they were embodied by the existing law; by that law each militiaman who provided for his relatives was to have so per week for his wife, and is for his father, mother, or child, who were to be maintained by him. In August following, tin's law was repealed, by which these as were reduced to is. The militia had been embodied under the faith of the first, and no compensation was give to them for the reduction: this was a breach of faith, at which the militia murmured very much. He had letters informing him of much discontent upon this occasion, nor would he be answerable for the consequences, if some measure was not taken; and if taken at all, it must be taken before the assizes, which are now approaching, otherwise it would be too lare.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
admitted the difficulty stated by the light hon. gent, and he should call the attention of the House to it; but the chief secretary of the lord-lieutenant had brought the bill forward; he had not vet had an opportunity of considering that subject, but in a few days he should come forward with an amendment to that bill, or a separate bill for that purpose.
[LORD KILWARDEN'S FAMILY.]—
Mr. George Ponsonby
asked the Chancellor of Exchequer, whether it was intended to take any step towards making some provision the family of the late Lord Kilwarden: it was now near 8 months since that tragical event happened, by which he was destroyed. His family were not in affluent circumstances, and the consideration of to manner in which he came to his untimely and lamented fate, and the recollection of his virtues, made this a matter of great concern, and he thought that no time should be lost in making an adequate provision for his family; and he was sure every loyal man in has empire would feel the necessity of this attention on the part of the government.
The Chancellor
of the Exchequer said, that; this subject was one OP which his Majesty's servants had not been inattentive, and he believed in the course of a few days the attention of the House would be called to it.
823
[HIS MAJESTY'S INDIS POSITION.]—
Mr. Grey.
I wish Sir, to say a very few words, on a subject which appears to me to be of the utmost importance. The attention of the House has this day been necessarily called, by witnessing in the House of Lords an instance of the personal exercise at an Act of Authority from the King.—Sir, the inference naturally drawn from that Act of authority, so exercised, is undoubtedly of the most satisfactory nature. It would indeed be completely satisfactory to me, if were assured by the right hon. the Chancel for of his Exchequer, that that Act was chine in fall health, winch its publicity indicates, and without which such an act of authority ought not to have been exercised, It would have been satisfactory to me if this were not some doubts upon that subject: bat, under all the circumstances, considering what we know from public reports, and comparing them with declarations made in this House and other places, there does appear to me to be some doubt all mystery upon this transaction, which leave on my mind sentiments of considerable uneasiness and apprehension. It would be great relief and satisfaction to me to have this serious apprehension removed by an explicit declaration from the minister; but, if not, the House is placed in a new and awful situation, in which it will be incumbent on ns to think what steps it may be proper for us to take.
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke,
immediately rose and moved the order of the day upon the Volunteer Consolidation Bill.—On the clause for allowing adjutants and quartermasters half-pay,
Mr. Whitbread
observed, that there were many persons who had never been in the regular?, but who, from the excellence of their conduct as adjutants in volunteer corps were, he thought, equally intitled to half-pay. He was of opinion, that it should depend upon the report of the inspecting field-officer as to the good discipline of the corps, whether the adj. of such corps should be entitled to such pay or not.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said, it was necessary to lay down a general principle with respect to the half-pay to be allowed to adjutants, as otherwise, persons who acted as adjutants in volunteer corps, and who were wholly incompetent, might become entitled to it, and thus saddle considerable expense upon the public. To this rule, however, there might be some exceptions, as, if the inspecting field officer reported the good qualifications of an adjutant, it certainly
824
Mr. Pitt
said, he agreed in the general outline with respect to adjutants receiving pay. He thought however that where there was a difficulty in getting good adjutants, that serjeant-majors, from regular troops might be resorted to as adjutants for volunteer corps. He then adverted to, and re-stated his former proposition, with respect to transferring officers from the line as field officers in volunteer corps.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it was the strong disposition of ministers to agree to any thing that could tend to improve the discipline of the volunteer corps, consistent with the nature and principles of the constitution. It was his opinion that the purpose of the right hon. gent, would be better answered by the appointment of inspecting field officers who were appointed from officers of the line. He objected to the proposition of the right hon. gent, for the appointment of field officers to volunteer corps from the line, because the volunteers should not be led to suppose that it was intended to graft upon the system any thing not congenial to its nature. He knew that a degree of jealousy had been caused in some volunteer corps by the appointment of inspecting field officers, because they were liable to a sort of compulsory inspection by persons receiving pay. He was convinced, however of the necessity of appointing inspecting field officers, and that the volunteers could not be an efficient force without them; but if field officers from the line were introduced info the volunteer corps, it would necessarily I create jealousy. It had been made part of t the proposition, that field officers from the line should not be appointed to volunteer, corps without the consent of the commanding officers; but this was placing a commanding other in a situation of great difficulty and delicacy. If he recommended the appointment of a field officer from the line, it might be considered as a confession of his own insufficiency; whilst, if he refused to I assent to a recommendation of that nature, he might be liable to censure; add to this, there were many volunteer corps which already had the benefit of the assistance of I military officers of great experience, either as commandants, or as holding commissions in such corps. At the same time it was his wish that it should be a part of the instructions from the commander in chief to the general officers commanding districts, to spire field officers from the regulars, where-
825
Mr. Pitt
said, as to the appointment of inspecting field officers, it was obvious that could not interfere with his proposal of appointing field officers from the line to assist in disciplining volunteer corps, as the persons appointed inspecting officers held the rank of lieut. colonels—whilst he proposed to appoint persons, probably captains, from half pay. At least they might try whether any such persons might be obtained; at any rate, the two descriptions of persons were wholly distinct, as no one was appointed an inspecting officer who had not been a field officer in the army, whilst he proposed to take field officers for volunteers from those in the line who held subaltern commissions. The right hon. gent, had said, that such a measure would be likely to create jealousy: he was sorry to hear it, but certainly the appointment of inspecting field officers was not sufficient to render volunteer corps in any degree well disciplined. Some of those officers had half a county to attend to, and he would ask, whether they could in that case do much more than relate what they had been told by others, with respect to the discipline of corps, instead of being intimately acquainted with it themselves? He was now, however, told, that because persons had been appointed to see that instructions had been given to volunteer corps, that it was unnecessary to appoint persons to instruct them: he could not conceive this to be very conclusive reasoning. He did not believe I hat any jealousy would be excited by the appointment of field officers of the description he had alluded to; it would rather be caused by the appointing inspecting field officers, who were superior to the commanders of the regiments. Add to this, that inspecting field officers were appointed by a compulsory regulation, whilst ail he proposed was to provide fried officers where it was requested by the commanding officers of corps, therefore there was still less cause for jealousy. Another ground of objection was, that commanding officers would be placed in a situation of great delicacy; but he did not see the force of this objection. Suppose the commanding officer were to recommend the appointment of a field officer from the line to his corps, lie would only indicate that he was a man of common sense, and that lie was more anxious to do his duty than to be actuated by
826
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that if the description of persons alluded to by the right hon. gent, were appointed, they might assume an importance which would be inconsistent with the general system of the corps. He instanced the volunteers of Ireland, who had had no such officers, and who had displayed the best discipline, as well as the greatest courage and zeal.
General Loftus
objected to officers being sent from camps or other military stations in the hour of danger to discipline volunteer corps.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, his idea was, that such assistance should be at the discretion of the general of the district.
Mr. Pitt
said, that in the maritime districts such assistance might be provided, but with respect to the corps in the interior, they should be assisted in discipline by officers from half pay.
Mr. W. Dickenson
observed that there must be good officers to make good soldiers. As to economy, it was not a question of conomizing money, but the blood and lives of the people; it was necessary to have good officers to ensure discipline, and it was necessary to have discipline in order to ensure success; and he would ask whether defeats were considered as cheap articles by the present administration r If an enemy were to land, the country might have reason to curse such parsimony. If the bill now before the House was made any thing of, it would be made by the minority, and not by the majority; for if it had passed as originally brought in, it would have been one of the strong instances of the weak conduct of a feeble administration.
Mr. Hiley Addington
said, he would leave to the decision of the House and the public the hon. gentleman's charge of economy against the present administration. He objected to any measure for the introduction of field officers from the line into volunteer corps, as it would for to create dissensions amongst the officers and privates of these corps.
Mr. Windham,
wished to understand precisely the meaning of his right hon. friend's
827
Mr. Pitt
said, his proposition was to take officers from the half-pay, where they were useless, and to make them useful by contributing to discipline volunteer corps.
Mr. C. Wynne
deprecated the economy of ministers, as its only object was to diminish their expenses, which were to come before Parliament, whilst a greater weight fell upon the people.
Mr. Spenser Stanhope
adverted to the erection of beacons, and instanced one in the West Riding of Yorkshire, guarded by four persons, one of whom had only one leg, another had only one arm, the third had lost the roof his mouth, and the fourth was notoriously drunken, and each of these were paid half-a-guinea per day.
Mr. Secretary
Yorke said, that beacons had been erected in the West Riding of Yorkshire without consulting the general of the district, Lord Mulgrave.
Mr. Spencer Stanhope
said, they were erected by order of the general of the district.
Mr. Secretary
Yorke said, he had understood the contrary.—After some further observations from Lord Temple, Sir Wm. Milner, Sir Henry Mildmay and other members, the clause was agreed to.
On the clause relating to the recovery of fines and Penalties,
Mr. Pitt
suggested that it would be better to give an option in case of non-payment, either to levy the fine by distress, or to inflict imprisonment for two or three days or a week, as the distress might be injurious to the family of the person distressed upon.
Mr. G. Vansittart
was for extending the imprisonment to a fortnight.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought the imprisonment of the individual would be more injurious to his family than levying the fine by distress.
Mr. Pitt
explained, that the idea was, to vest a discretionary power in the Magistrate, to imprison, suppose for a week, in the default of distress.
Sir R. Buxton
strongly recommended the allowing a certain number of days, at the expiration of which, if the penalties were not paid, the Magistrate should have the power of committing in the case of default.
Mr. Sturgess Bourne
contended, that the optional power proposed to be given to the Magistrates, proceeded on the most humane and liberal principle that it was possible to introduce into a case of pecuniary penalty.
Mr. Burland
proposed the introduction of
828
Mr. Hobhouse
spoke shortly in support of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's idea in favour or the mode of distress, as imprisonment would evidently prevent the individual from earning the accustomed provision for his family.
Mr. Whitbread
said, he was inclined to make the opulent private pay in his purse; but would not resort to imprisonment, except where it was indispensably necessary. The proceeding of distress, he thought one of extreme oppression; but as some principle of compulsion must obtain, he thought the option of distress or imprisonment should be given. With respect to the application of these penalties, they were to go to the common fund of the different corps for defraying the necessary expenses, &c. But, in observing upon this point, he must repeat what he had said thereon on a former occasion; he thought it would be a sounder and more manly policy to come forward at once and provide for the payment of such expenses out of the public purse; as he predicted, for want of certain and unfailing funds, the greater number of the corps would fall to pieces and cease to exist. This he said, to a certain degree, was exemplified by the instance of one of the City corps, where, out of the requisite sum of about 11,000
l.
l.
829
Mr. H. Lascelles
thought that the accumulation of fines should be prevented, as they might run up to an amount that might impede the resignation of a member when lie should so determine.
Mr. Pitt
referred the hon. member to a particular part of she clause, where the case was provided for by the words.
Mr. Rose
expressed his opinion, that the magistrates should be vested with the power of committing to the nearest place or confinement—The clause, as amended, was then agreed to.
Mr. Fox
objected to the principle, as regulated by the provisions of the bill. Though the members had agreed to the payment of certain fines, they had no idea of eventually incurring a capital punishment; by such a regulation, the volunteer was put in a different situation from that in which he considered himself, when making his agreement.
Mr. Pitt
observed, that a degree of compulsion in the case under discussion was evidently necessary. They should recollect that the right of the volunteer to resign was admitted, in case he was not satisfied with the regulations. The discipline of the corps was surely necessary to be preserved; and farther, the lines arose out of the regulations
830
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, March 10, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
The Dublin Watch Bill was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time.—A new writ was ordered for I Preston, in the room of John Horrocks, Esq. deceased.—the Committee on the Irish Countervailing Duty Bill was put off till Monday.—The Irish Malt Bill was read a second time.
[IRISH DUTIES BILL.]—
Mr. Corry
moved the order of the day for going into a committee on the Irish Duties Bill. The order having been read, the rt. hon. gent, said, that before he made any further motion upon this subject he wished to say a few words. In the course of the debate of yesterday, some doubt was thrown out, that the bill before the House was one that affected the interest of the crown, and that, therefore, the royal assent ought to have been signified. He was ready at that time, and he was ready now, if it were proper, to shew that the bill was conformable, to the precedents of the Parliament of Ireland. He also understood, though on this point he could not speak so positively, that it was not without precedent in the Parliament of Gt. Britain before the Union, and in the Imperial Parliament, since the Union, there were precedents, viz. the three different acts which had passed relative to these duties; it was true they were only annual bills, and therefore he did not rely entirely upon them. But though there
831
Mr. Foster
said, that the great doubts and difficulties which had arisen in his mind upon the subject were founded upon the circumstance of this bill being perpetual, therefore he did not conceive that annual bills could be considered as' any precedent. The. motion was then agreed to.
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved the order of the day for going into a Committee on the Volunteer Consolidation Bill. The House having resolved itself into a committee, the rt. hon. Secretary proceeded to propose some new clauses. The first was, to invalidate any agreements that might have been entered into between masters and servants, by which the latter were prevented from entering into volunteer corps. The next was a clause to repeal a clause in a former bill, compelling the parish to pay the drill Serjeants; they are in future to be paid out of the public purse. These clauses were agreed to.—The next was a clause authorising the commander of a corps, in case of any member misbehaving himself, to deprive him of that day's pay, or else to disallow that day as one of his day's of exercise.
Mr. Pitt
said, the clause now proposed would have some effect, but still he did not think it would be sufficient. He had prepared some clauses upon this subject, which would go a little farther. One of them was to give the commander of a corps a power to order any member misbehaving himself while under arms, into custody during the time the corps remained under arms; to inflict fines as high as 5
s.
Mr. Tierney
said, he very much approved
832
Mr. Pitt
said, that these regulations might be applied only to the corps who received pay.
Colonel Eyre
thought there was no occasion for further regulations, and therefore should object to these clauses.
The Marquis of Titchfield
approved entirely of the ideas of Mr. Pitt upon this subject, and thought they were highly advantageous to the volunteer system. If he might presume to offer any thing in addition to that which came from so high an authority, it would be, that the point of discipline to which the clause referred, should be judged of by a military council in the way of a court martial, subject to the approbation of the commander of each corps.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
thought both the clauses which he had proposed, and those proposed by the rt. Hon. gent., might be adopted, for they were not in the least inconsistent with each other. He approved of this system of imprisoning volunteers among themselves for the day, when they were under arms, if they had misconducted themselves in the ranks; and he thought the ideas submitted to the committee by that rt. hon. gent, very good. He dissented from the mode in which Mr. Pitt's clause proposed to levy the fines, but thought they should be submitted to a court martial, as had been hinted by a noble marquis: he thought also, that all these proceedings for fines and penalties should be subject to the approbation of the commander of each corps, &c.
Mr. Lascelles
thought, that, generally speaking, it was impolitic to impose on volunteer corps any other fines than those which originated with themselves.
Mr. Pitt
said, that he had not so distinctly, perhaps as he might have, stated what he meant by misconduct of a volunteer under arms; he did not mean general misconduct, for which the commander had power already to punish him, in some degree, by expressing displeasure, &c; he did not mean to
833
s.;
The Attorney General
thought, as a permanent system, the clause a very wise one, but doubted whether it was advisable to adopt it at the present moment under all circumstance, He was afraid it might be, under all the circumstances, endeavouring to do too much; it was better, perhaps, to do a little less, although the system was defective, than by endeavouring to make it perfect, possibly in some measure to overturn it. He was afraid of proceeding too far upon the compulsory system with volunteers; that might be reserved in case his Majesty should call forth his subjects under the compulsory enrolment.
Mr. Pitt
suggested, that much of the, objections which seemed to be misnamed
834
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
agreed with the Attorney General upon this subject, that it was dangerous to try to accomplish too much in the system of military exercise of the volunteers; but he thought the volunteers had already made great progress in that matter. It was supposed that 25 days would be sufficient to instruct them tolerably: now, there were hardly any of them who had not been instructed for 40, and some of them for more than 60 days He was persuaded that Parliament had acted wisely in giving the volunteers an opportunity of acting as they have, and be could not help thinking that the degree of discipline they had acquired already, would afford us all a degree of confidence, not only in their further improvement, but also warrant our reliance on their sufficiency to meet any veterans of the enemy. He conceived, that at this moment, the volunteers had attained such a degree of discipline as no one at the time of their first establishment had any idea of, nor even at the time when the first volunteer bill was introduced; and he owned that he contemplated with astonishment, as well as satisfaction, the degree of perfection at which the volunteer system was now arrived, and this justified the hope that a very large portion of the volunteers of England, mixed with the regular troops, were fit to meet the veteran troops of France, and that our meeting of them so would give us nothing short of hope and full confidence of immediate success. But he did entertain strong doubts of the propriety of this clause, on the ground which had been stated by his
835
Mr. Pitt
said, he certainly was willing to hope with the right hon. gent, and to believe, and even to be confident, that there was indeed a very considerable portion of the volunteers of Great Britain, who, in concert with the regular force, would be of great Utility in the contest which we are now to expect; but he could not disguise from the House, because he could not disguise from himself, that very many of the volunteers were in no degree advanced to that state of discipline in which we could wish to see them, and in which it was indispensably necessary they should he in, before, they could be essentially serviceable to their country, when called out for its defence, and in support its existence. There was an error in the judgement of many gentlemen who had spoken upon the subject of the military discipline of the volunteers of England from the brilliant corps or the metropolis, whereas it was notorious that many corps in the country were it; nothing like the same state; many of them had but just received their arms, which under the many difficulties with which we had encounter, was not to be wondered at But from what he himself knew and from the credible information he received from others, from the various fluctuations and uncertainty that were incident to this system there were many of think in a state in which it was impossible to say they were any thing approaching that situation described by the right hon. gent. He did not say that many of the volunteers, who may in the course perhaps of three weeks be put to the proof, and may have to meet wish the veteran troops of France, that they would not acquit themselves with honour in union with
836
837
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
desired to make one or two observations which he had omitted to state when discussing She proposition of the right hon. gent. He must deny that experience shewed the necessity of the measure recommended. He had heard of no complaints made by any corps, as to an insufficiency of internal discipline. He adverted to the provision for with-holding a certain part of the pay
838
Ayes
26
Noes
27
Majority against the clause
1
The remaining clauses and schedules, &c. of the bill were then gone through by the Committee; the report was received by the House
pro forma,
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 12, 1804.
Mr. Erskine and Mr. Alexander were heard for the appellant in the appeal Duke of Queensbury v. M'Murdo. To be further proceeded on, on Wednesday.—Several private bills were forwarded in their respective stages, and their lordships adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 12, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Sir W. Pultency brought up the Scotch Bank. Bill, which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time on a day afterwards to be fixed.—On the motion of Sir T. Henderson, the Template Bar Improvement Bill was read a second time, and referred to a select Committee—Roydell's Lottery Bill was reed a third time and ordered to the Lords.—Mr. Hurst presented a petition from John Wilson, confined in Newgate for prevarication before the Aylesbury Election Committee, staling several circumstances in mitigation of his offence, and praying for those reasons that the House would have the goodness to order his discharge. The petition having been received, the said John Wilson, the petitioner, was ordered to appear at the bar of the House on Wednesday next, in order to his being discharged.—A message was brought from the Lords, announcing their concurrence to several private bills.—On the motion of Mr. Vansittart, the Bill for permitting the Importation of Raw Hides, &c. into Ireland was read a third time and passed.—A petition was presented from the trustees of the British Museum, praying for further
839
[EXCHEQUER BILLS.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
moved the order of the day for the Committee of Ways and Means. The Speaker having left the chair, the Chancellor of the Exchequer rose, he said, in pursuance of a notice which he had formerly given, to move the House for a vote of two millions on Exchequer Bills, for the farther service of the year. He moved for this loan, the right hon. gent, said, that time might be given to arrange the taxes to be raised within the year, and to give them as great a latitude as possible.—The House having resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
[IRISH DUTIES BILL.]
Mr. Corry
moved, in pursuance of the order of the day, the Committee of the whole Home on the Irish Duty Bill. On the question being put from the chair,—Mr Corry said, that on a former evening an objection had been offered on the measure proposed by this bill, founded on an idea that it went to affect the hereditary revenue of the Crown, and that, therefore, no measure of the kind could be legally entered info, without obtaining his Majesty's previous consent. If he had mistaken the grounds of the objection he should be glad to be set right; and
840
Mr. Foster
admitted that such certainly were the grounds of his objection, and. to which he was still inclined to adhere.
Mr. Corry
admitted, that the interests of the Crown were affected by the present measure, but wished the House to consider in what manner they were affected; if it was not in the same manner as by similar measures adopted in this country. The hereditary revenue of the Crown took its origin in Ireland about the same period as in this country, and is, perhaps, more extensive there than here; he meant, he said, in its operation. The right hon. gent. here mentioned several duties which were rot known in this country. For the defence of the country there was also an excise inland and import, and for defending the seas, as it was called, customs had been granted. But it was not till the reign of Charles the II. that any hereditary or private revenue had been granted to the Crown. In the 14th and 15th of Charles II. duties had been granted for this purpose on teas and tobacco. A duty of 2½d per lb. on tobacco was granted to Charles II. Additional duties had been granted also to William III. on the same article, but with a clause, at the same time, declaring 2½d per pound, as formerly, the hereditary duty, and were continued so till the Consolidation Act, in the 31st of the present King, when 2½und was again declared to be the hereditary duty, and those additional duties were supposed to expire on the demise of the King. In the 31st of the King also a civil list was granted to his Majesty, on the same principles as in this country; and this civil list was considered as an equivalent for the hereditary duties belonging to the Crown, and as accepted instead of them. That they might have the hereditary revenue in their own power, they entered into a contract with the Crown. Whatever the amount of the hereditary revenues might be, they thus reserved the power of increasing or diminishing, or otherwise modifying them. After the civil list had been thus established, other additional duties were granted sessionally, some, times for 5 years running. These were at first granted triennially, when Parliament was triennial; and afterwards annually; but uniformly the same clause in regard to the 2½d per pound on tobacco, as the hereditary duty, was inserted, for which no consent of the Crown was ever asked or
841
ad valorem
ad valorem.
842
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was of opinion, that his right hon. friend was sufficiently justified by the precedents he had adduced in his behalf. He had at any rate given the House an opportunity to investigate the proper mode of proceeding. For his own part, he was perfectly satisfied, at the same time, that should the Crown withhold its consent from such a measure, no precedents whatever could justify the House in their farther proceeding where the interests of the Crown were in any degree affected. Put this consent might be given or with held at any stage of the bill. It could not be learned from the title of the bill that the interests of the Crown are concerned. It was from the statement of the right hon. gent. only, that he had learned that the Crown was concerned in the present bill; and having learned this, he had applied to his Majesty, and had authority to say, that his Majesty gave his consent in the most ample manner.
Mr. Foster
stated, that the duties on tea and tobacco were far from being prominent objsct3 in his mind when he had started the objection. It was the interest of the Crown in general he had considered, and those not only as they related to the life of his present Majesty, but as they affected his successor.
Mr. Rose
said, that the House might, perhaps, not be aware of what was the proper mode of procedure on such an occasion, but it was certainly much obliged to the right hon. gent. for his objections on a former evening, as it had led to an application to his Majesty, the result of which was so agreeable to the House. The question certainly was not in regard to the amount to which the Crown might be interested, but in regard to the principle. It was quite indifferent whether it was 500 or 5,000, but whether the measure was constitutional. It was unconstitutional, be thought, that any alteration should take place in the fixed revenues without a message from the Crown. Whatever may have been the practice of the Irish Parliament, such a proceeding was certainly contrary to the practice of the British Parliament. The House may perhaps be satisfied with this method of getting information of the consent of the Crown, but he wished it to be understood, that, in his opinion, it was by no means the usual way, and that nothing less than a message was constitutional.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
was willing to appeal to the House, if a message was at ail necessary on such an occasion. Many instances such as this had occurred on grants, and on Committees of Supply, where
843
Mr. Rose
again begged leave to say, that in regard to the consolidation of the duties in 1797, the interests of the Crown were perfectly safe, and that the cases were cot quite analogous.
Mr. G. Ponsonby
was surprised that on this bill no communication from the Crown should be thought necessary. When a bill of nearly the same nature passed in Ireland in the year 1793, a message had been received from the Lord Lieut., and that message ordered to be ingrossed in the books previous to any proceedings of Parliament.
Mr. Ormsby
begged to remind the House, that in the 34th of the King, an act passed of nearly the same nature, without any message whatever from the Crown.
Mr. Vansittart
stated, that his principal motive in rising was only to say in regard to the heriditary interest of the Crown, that the act of the 30th of George II. was passed without any notice from the Crown.
Mr. Foster
was of opinion that, even if his present Majesty should be satisfied, it was necessary also that he should intimate his approbation and consent as far as respected his successor, or the interests of the Crown at large.
The Chancellor of tie Exchequer
begged leave explicitly to state, that his Majesty had given the fullest consent, not only in regard to himself, but as it respected also the general interests of the Crown: but at the same time he wished to state, that his Majesty did not mean that the House should be fettered in the smallest degree in their discussions.—The question was agreed to,—The House having resolved into the Committee,
Mr. Foster
rose, and objected to the mode of proceeding which the framers of this measure recommended, as it went to render taxes permanent which had been heretofore but annually voted. This was in his mind taking the Irish nation by surprize, from which he was confident that a number of petitions would be immediately presented, if the merchants were aware of the nature of the bill and the additional taxes which it proposed to impose, particularly on linen, salt, hops. &c. He thought the measure of perpetuating the taxes objectionable, as involving an invasion of the rights of ids Majesty's successor, also in point of time, as the period was so rapidly approaching when, from the relative state of the debts of the two countries a total revision of the taxes would
844
Mr. Corry
observed, that to all which the right hon. gent, advanced, he had already made, in his judgment, quite a sufficient reply; and, therefore, as often as such arguments were repeated, he must be under the necessity of troubling the House with a repetition of his former answer, thus imitating; the conduct of a right hon. gent. who, when; any motion or speech was made against the American war, always said, that he would read his American speech, which contained arguments to his mind of the policy of that war, arguments which appeared to him to require no addition. The right hon. gent, proceeded to state "the superior advantages which the linen manufacturers had over the manufacturers of this country, every article belonging to that manufacture, except flax, being subject to a tax in this country, while ail the same articles, namely, pot ash, barilla, train oil, &c. were exempt from taxation in Ireland. He complained of the species of observation used by the mover of the amendment, as calculated to mislead and inflame the public mind with respect to the amount of taxes which were necessary in order to protect the very existence of the country.
Mr. Burroughs
agreed with the right hon. gent, who moved the amendment, as to the propriety of allowing time to the Irish merchants, and other persons interested, to inquire into and communicate their opinions upon the different taxes. This was the more necessary as the schedule of those taxes was only printed and delivered on Tuesday last, since when even the members of that House had scarce had time to examine it. With the general principle laid down by the right hon. gent, on the Treasury Bench, as to the justice of equal taxation upon the same manufactures of both countries, he did not mean to dispute; but as it appeared to him the question to consider was, how far the peculiar state of the manufacture in each country would justify the House in acting upon such principle; and here it was material to be recollected that linen was the staple trade of Ireland.
Mr. Corry
said, that the schedule of the taxes laid before Parliament last session was very generally circulated among the merchants in Ireland; but he was ready to admit that there was some difference between that and the schedule now before the Committee.
845
Lord Castlereagh
recommended, that time should be taken to examine and compare the schedule now before the Committee with that of last year, which his right hon. friend had stated to have been circulated among the persons interested in the taxes referred to; and if any substantial difference should be found to exist he was sure that his hon. friend would be as willing as any member of the House, to press the adoption of the bill until the Irish merchants should have full opportunity to canvass the merits, and to state their opinions upon every part of the schedule; at the same time he begged to call to the recollection of gentlemen, that 3 years had now nearly elapsed since it was known to be in contemplation to render those taxes perpetual, that is to say, to assimilate the concerns of the Irish revenue to the practice which prevailed in this country, and to the soundness of the principle, he conceived, that no objection could be offered, for cither the proposed annual review of those taxes must be a mere parade, or the public creditor must be, inn great measure, insecure. The noble lord then moved, that the chairman should be directed to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. G. Ponsonby
expressed his hope that that postponement was a prelude to the abandonment altogether of this obnoxious plan of taxation.
Mr. Fox
said, that if it was intended to render those taxes perpetual, nothwithstanding all that had been urged to the contrary, the House might as well come to a vote on the subject this night; but if the purposed delay was merely a temporary retreat, from a consideration that it would be more decorous to give apparent time for the consideration of the schedule, and that the time of the House was meant to be again occupied with the same discussion, he could not forbear to condemn such an expedient.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that no gent, was in titled to assume from any thing that had fallen from his noble friend, that it was at all intended to abandon the proposed assimilation of the mode of taxation in Ireland, with that which existed in this country. The only delay proposed in the progress of the measure was until tomorrow, and the only motive of that delay was to give an opportunity to his right hon. friend (Mr. Corry), to compare the two schedules for the purpose described by his noble friend.
Mr. John Lasoucb
pressed strongly for further time, from a sense of duty to a great proportion of his constituents, the merchants of Dublin, who were particularly interested,
846
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved, that this bill be re-committed. The right hon. gent, proposed several verbal amendments, which were agreed to.—On the clause for allowing commanding officers of corps to discharge men for certain specified clauses, Mr. Secretary York proposed, that after these specifications these words should be added, "or for other good causes." The right hon. gent, observed, that this power of dismissal is only to belong to volunteer officers while in a disembodied state, but that when they shall be called into actual service, their commanders shall have only the same power which belongs to the colonels of regular regiments. He proposed that in case any volunteer shall be aggrieved by unjust dismissal, he shall have the power of appeal to his Majesty, with whom it shall rest, if sufficient grounds appear, to order a court of inquiry to be summoned on the case by the lord lieut. of the county in which the corps of the appellant may reside, and upon the result of such inquiry shall depend the confirmation or rejection of the dismissed volunteer; the lord lieut. to have the reinstating the man in his corps, if the judgment of the court of inquiry should be in favour, and also the power if he see fit to remove the officer, the latter subjected to his Majesty's approbation.
Mr. Fox
renewed his objection to this clause, as conferring too great a power upon the commanders of volunteer corps, by enabling them in effect to press men into the militia or army of reserve, for the most trifling cause. The idea of a vindictive court of inquiry, to be obtained by the means proposed, he considered as not at all a sufficient protection to the volunteers against the abuse of this extraordinary power. The dismissal ought, in his judgment, to be preceded rather than followed by a court of inquiry.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
argued that the power which the clause proposed to confer was great, but he contended that the court of inquiry, described by his right hon. friend, would be a sufficient check upon the exercise of that power.
Mr. Ward
thought that the amendment of "other good causes," rendered the specifications which preceded than altogether superfluous.
847
Lord Castlereagh
considered the mode of appeal proposed the best that offered. As to the principle of allowing commanding officers of volunteer corps, the power of discharging their men, the colonels of all the regiment in the army had a similar power, and it was essential to military discipline that such a power should be vested in them. If a volunteer commander should discharge a man without just reason, such man could have his redress.
Mr. Fox
begged to set the noble lord right. The colonels of regiments had not She power, of their own sole will, to discharge their men without any previous trial or court of inquiry; at least it was a power that was never known to be exercised. The clause before the Committee, therefore, proposed to confer a power on volunteer commanders far exceeding that possessed by any other description of officers. He argued that a volunteer commander should be obliged to state his reasons for discharging a man, or otherwise the mode of appeal proposed against the abuse of his power, would be quite impracticable. He ridiculed the idea of declining, from the pretext of humanity, to make it imperative on those commanders to state their reasons for dismissing any volunteer.
General Loftus
said, that in the course of his service he had never known an instance of a colonel of any regiment discharging a man from the service on his own authority solely, as the noble lord on the treasury bench asserted.
Mr. Pitt.
suggested that an appeal to the lord lieut. for a court of inquiry upon any discharge might be allowed, provided the discharge were for any other cause than those specified iii the clause, namely, for badness of character, for instance, which was a good ground for discharging a man, although it would be proper, in such a case, to oblige the commanding officer publicly to state as a reason. The mode of appeal supplied in the amendment of the right hon. gent, he considered nugatory and objectionable in principle.
Mr. Grey
proposed an amendment that after the words "that it shall be lawful for such commanding officer," these words be inserted, "to summon a Board of Inquiry, who shall determine on the propriety of dismissing such volunteer, &c."
Mr. Secretary Yorke
opposed it. He admitted that the power conferred by the clause would be great; but yet it was to be considered that this was a great power to supply the place of many other great powers. This power, however, he bagged to observe,
848
Mr. Grey
admitted that the power was not new, but yet it Was to be recollected that the consequence that would result from the exercise of that power was quite new, and might be productive of serious inconveniences to individuals.—After several other observations, the question was called for, and on a division there appeared,
For the original clause 116
Against it 69—Majority 47.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
said that he had not any other clause to propose; he meant only to move that the report be now received pro forma; and he should afterwards move, that the bill be taken into farther consideration on Friday.—The House then resumed, the report was then brought up, ordered to be printed, and taken into further consideration on Friday next.
[NAVALX INQUIRY.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke,
wished the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) would have the goodness to state to the House what were the papers which he intended to move for, in order that the object of the motion might be clearly understood.
Mr. Pitt
declared that he had no objection to gratify the desire of the right hon. Secretary in that respect. He said he had indeed already communicated the substance of his motion to one of the Lords of the Admiralty, from whom he thought ministers might probably have heard it. It was his intention to move for an account of the number of that description of force which is best calculated to repel the attacks of the enemy at the present moment, that we have now in commission, he meant frigates, sloops, cutters, and all the smaller description of armed vessels which were capable of sailing in shallow water, and defending our coast. He meant also to move for an account of a similar nature, with respect to that species of force in the year 1S01, with a view of comparing them together. Pie should also move for an account of the naval force of the country of another description, namely, ships of the line, which we had in commission in the year 1793, and in the year 1801, and also the amount of those which had been launched since that
849
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 13, 1804.
[BOYDELL'S LOTTERY.]—
On the motion for the first reading of Boydell's Lottery Bill,
The Earl of Suffolk
rose, not, he said, to oppose the bill, but he could not pass by the opportunity which it afforded him of warning the artists of this country of the great injury which they were doing, both to their own character and interest, and to the interests of the country, by the slovenly manner in which most of the works of art in this country were now executed. He stated it to be a fact, that in consequence of the very superior execution of the print of the death of Captain Cook, by Woollett, and of the Battle, of La Hogue, English engravings had risen to a high reputation on the Continent; So much was this the case, that for the former of these engravings, Woollet received between 6,000l. and 7,000l. and the revenue coming into this country from this branch of art, at one time exceeded 200,000l. per annum. By the slovenly manner, however, in which works of this kind were now executed, both the individual and public advantages had ceased to operate. He did not mean to apply the doctrine which he had now laid to the gentlemen concerned in the present bill. Their conduct and exertions, he was ready to confess, had been highly meritorious.
The Lord Chancellor
said, that however much he might disapprove of the practice of granting privileges similar to those contained in the present bill, for the disposal of private property, he, for one, and he was convinced every man who heard him, would agree in thinking that the conferring such a privilege on the Messrs. Boydell's, was no more than a tribute justly due to them from their country, in which they had been the principal instruments of improving, if not of establishing the arts of painting and engraving. He was not prepared to say, that the noble earl was not unfounded in his ge-
850
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 13, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Two Committees were appointed, the one to examine into the accounts of cloathing, &c. for the militia in Great-Britain, and the other for a similar purpose, with regard to the Irish militia.—On the motion of Mr. Corry, it was ordered, that the Speaker do issue his warrant, empowering the clerk of the Crown to make out a hew writ for the election of a member to represent the City of Dublin in Parliament, in the room of J. C. Beresford, Esq. who has accepted of the office of Escheator of Ulster.—A petition was presented from a number of the inhabitants of the county of Norfolk, complaining of the operation of the late duties upon malt. Ordered to lift on the table.—A person from the Stamp Office presented an account of the sums of money in the hands of the distributors of stamps on the 25th January, 1804. Ordered to lie on the table.—ACommittee was appointed to examine into the statement of the amount of monies paid to adjutants and serjeant-majors of the militia, during the time of their being disembodied.—The American Importation Indemnity Bill was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time.—The Irish Malt Duty Bill was committed, and ordered to be reported tomorrow.—Mr. Hawkins Browne, presented a petition from the executors of James Wright, Esq. late Governor of Georgia, praying for a remuneration for the losses he had sustained in that province. The Chancellor of the Exchequer stated, that he was empowered to communicate his Majesty's assent to the reception of the petition; but at the same time he would not pledge himself to any approbation or support of the matter which was contained in it. He then moved that a Committee be appointed to examine in to the merits of the petit ion. Ordered.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved, pursuant to notice, for a Committee to inquire into the propriety of making any and what difference in the duty to be laid on barley and big, the growth of Scotland, and that o the same sort of grain in England.
851
[IRISH DUTIES BILL.]—
Mr. Corry
moved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee on the above bill. On the question being put from the chair,
Sir John Newport
returned the right hon. member the most sincere thanks, both on his part, and in the name of his constituents, who had desired him so to do, for the very liberal manner in which lie had attended to their interest, and made them acquainted with the different duties which were to be in any manner altered by the bill. In other parts of Ireland, however, the commercial men were acquainted with the true object of the bill. He therefore hoped, that so much attention would be paid to the doubts, or even the prejudices of so respectable a body of men, as not to make the duties permanent in the present session of Parliament.
Mr. Corry
expressed the greatest degree of pleasure in having the testimony of the worthy baronet and of the merchants of so respectable a place as Waterford, in favour of his conduct. There were other places also of the first respectability in that part of the United Kingdom which he thought had nearly an equal right to be pleased with the conduct of his Majesty's ministers towards them; in the City of Cork, he knew that there was at present some difference of opinion with regard lo the operation of the bill, but the opposition was there so slight that
852
Mr. Foster
stated the inconvenience which was likely to result from such an alteration in the mode of collecting the duties in Ireland.
Mr. Corry
then said, that he should not consider that he acted improperly in moving to have those duties renewed at the end of the year, for 3 months, before they were made permanent, if there was not a sufficient number of members present from that part of the United Kingdom to which the bill referred.—The House having resolved itself into a Committee, Mr. Foster suggested, that it would be more regular if the act was to continue in force beyond the term of the year, though the duties might be voted only for the year,. It was, however, agreed by
853
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 14, 1804.
Counsel were heard in continuation relative to the Scotch appeal, the Duke of Queensberry. v. M'Murdo, namely, Mr. Attorney General, as leading counsel for the respondent, at considerable length, after which their lordships adjourned the farther hearing of the case till this day se'nnight.—The bills before the House were forwarded in their several stages.—Mr. Alcock, from the treasury, presented an account of the monies issued by the treasury, for the service of the year 1803, with a statement of the disposition thereof.—When the accounts were laid on the table, the Earl of Suffolk observed, that he should have to call their lordships' attention to certain parts of them; perhaps to some parts connected with the military branch; but certainly to the expenditure of the barrack department, which he conceived to be enormous. There were already, he believed, expended on these buildings more than two millions of money, and before the erections, now carrying on, were compleated, an additional million must be expended. He should think it his duty to call the attention of the House to this part of the accounts before them, and in order to enable him to do that the more effectually, he moved that the accounts in question be printed. No objection being made to this proposal, it was ordered accordingly.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 14, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. Cartwright moved for leave to bring in a bill for the regulation of chimney sweepers. Leave given,—Lord Marsham reported from the Middlesex election committee, that Mr. Atkins Wright had not been able to attend the said committee. Mr, Atkins Wright was, after examining Sir James Earle, excused from attending.—On the motion of Mr. Hurst, John Wilson was brought to the bar of the House, where the speaker addressed him, and after expatiating on the enormity of his offence, in being the prime mover of the scandalous scenes acted at Aylesbury, which tended to violate the right of election, and the privileges of that House, and in prevaricating in
854
[PROPERTY TAX.]—
Mr. Gregor
wished to be informed what progress had been made with respect to the property tax, and for that purpose intended to move for an account of the assessments returned to the tax-office; if, however, there was any objection he should merely give notice of it for a future day. He also intended to move for an account of the sums paid into, and of the charges upon the consolidated fund, between the 5th of Jan. 1803, and the 5th of January, 1804, distinguishing each quarter. There was another circumstance on which he wished to make a remark, relative to the printing of accounts laid before the House; it frequently happened, from only one copy of an account being laid before the House, which was immediately sent to be printed, that the members were, in the meantime, deprived of all information upon the subject. He concluded by moving for the account he had alluded to respecting the consolidated fund.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he saw no objection to the motion; but with respect to the other motion which the hon. gent, had mentioned, relative to the property tax, although he was not aware of any objection, yet he wished to avail himself of the hon. gentleman's wish to give a notice for a future day.—The motion was then agreed to, and Mr. Gregor gave notice of his intention to bring forward the other motion on Monday.
855
The Speaker
observed, with respect to accounts laid upon the table, that it would be for the convenience of the House if duplicates from the different offices were presented, in order that members might obtain information upon the subjects of these accounts whilst they were printing.
[WAR IN CEYLON.]—
Mr. Creevey
—I now rise, Sir, in pursuance of the notice I gave some time since, to move for certain papers and documents for the purpose of information, and as grounds for further inquiry respecting the war which the King's government in Ceylon has lately been carrying on in that island. I should not have presumed, Sir, to take upon myself the office of calling the attention of the House to this subject, had it not appeared to me of a very limited nature, and one lying within a very narrow compass, or had I perceived a disposition in any other gentleman to do the same thing. As the subject, however, now, Sir, has been some time before the public, as it appears to me to be one of the greatest importance, as no gentleman has appeared disposed to take it up, and as his Majesty's ministers have not thought fit to give this House any information respecting it, I have thought it any duty to introduce it to the consideration of Parliament. As the House and the Public are not in possession of any official account of the course or origin of this war, of many of the transactions which took place in the course of it, and of many of its effects and consequences, I will shortly state to the House such leading particulars as, from the information I am in possession of, I believe to be true. I am certain they are mostly true, and where I am incorrect the papers I shall move for will set me right,—From the year 1795, when we first took the island of Ceylon from the Dutch, to the end of 1802, our government in Ceylon seems to have pursued its proper objects, to have confined itself to the possession of the coast and open countries of the island, to the introduction of wholesome laws and civilization amongst the natives who live under our government, and every thing, I believe, during the period I have mentioned bore the strongest and most flattering prospect of improvement. We had never apparently, during this period, entertained the dangerous policy of interfering with the unprofitable interior of Ceylon, the woods and mountains, and wild inhabitants of the King of Candy's dominions. Some time, however, in 1802, it seems some subjects of the British government had purchased, in Candia, a quantity of the Areka nut, and which, in its way to our settlements,
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Lord Castlereagh
said, he should trouble the House with as few words as possible, as when the papers were laid before the House, they would then have an opportunity of forming an opinion upon the subject. He assented to the general principle, that when a war was entered into in any part of our colonial possessions, unless gov. could slate some reason of expediency for not producing such information, that Parliament had a right to possess itself of full information with respect to the origin and causes of that war. To this point the
862
I.
Creevey
Lord Castlereagh
objected to this motion, as calling for information which it would be inexpedient to produce, and therefore moved the previous question.
Mr. Fox
was utterly astonished at the language held by the noble lord as to the production of this paper. The noble lord had asserted that a time would come when no objection could exist to the production of the paper; but had he given the least argument against its production at the present moment? Had he offered a single little of reason to prove that the present time was not the fit moment for its being laid before Parliament? Was it a matter undeserving of instant inquiry, that a part of our force in Ceylon had sustained not only disaster,
863
General Maitland
thought that the hon. member who spoke last had not fully understood the force of the noble lord's observations. To him it appeared, that from the noble lord's statement the production of the paper in question would be attended with inconvenience, and this was a fair Parliamentary ground for refusing its production. If the description of the state of Ceylon was such as the hon. mover described it, he thought that the paper relative to this matter ought not to be produced. It could only have the effect of conveying dangerous information to the enemy. The first paper contained every thing now wanted, A time for the production of the others without inconvenience would arrive, and he trusted that this period was not very remote.
Mr. G. Johnstone
was of opinion, that any argument drawn from the impolicy of giving information to the enemy was quite inapplicable. If we looked to the situation of Ceylon, it was evident that before this time, the war must have come to a crisis. Our troops must cither have prevailed, or been expelled from the settlement, or destroyed. Under existing circumstances, besides, it could not be conceived for a moment that the French government would entertain the project of sending such a body of troops to India as would endanger oar eastern possessions. He was decidedly therefore for the inquiry. The noble lord had said that govt. was in posses-
864
Lord Castlereagh
in explanation stated, that when he spoke of the scanty information of govt., he alluded to the unfortunate massacre of the garrison of Candy.—Sir. W. Geary strongly supported the motion, and Mr. Wallace was against it.
Colonel Calcraft
was astonished at the argument of on hon. general on the other side of the House. That hon. gen. had resisted the motion on a case which he himself did not allow to be in existence. His argument was, that as Ceylon was in state of weakness, it would be improper to produce documents to establish the existence of this weakness. But even while using this argument, he had denied the existence of the case on which it was founded. He himself was decidedly for the inquiry.
Lord Henry Petty
was astonished at the sort of argument set up by ministers against the motion. It would be a very curious sort of argument for those entrusted with the management of a ship on a voyage, when a proposition was made to examine her timbers or general state, to say, that such an inquiry would come much better after the vessel got into port. But this was precisely the argument of ministers on the present occasion. His lordship declared, that he doubted much whether there existed means of effectually carrying on with success the war in Ceylon; and surely it was at least prudent to inquire into these means before a resolution was taken to protract so arduous a contest. He had heard a rumour that the governor general of India had determined to attempt the conquest of Candy; and that 10,000 men were to be sent from the Continent of India for that purpose. It behoved the House to know the grounds for the war and the probability of success, before the lives of so many brave men were idly sacrificed. He was therefore decidedly in favour of inquiry.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the papers already ordered would give sufficient information to ground upon them any ulterior decision as to the point whether the
865
For the Original Motion
47
For the Previous Question
70
Majority against the motion
23
List of the Minority.
Adair, R.
Gower, Lord G. L.
Berkeley, Hon. G. C.
Geary Sir. Wm.
Barclay, Sir R.
Hamilton, Lord A.
Bouverie, Hon. E.
Hussey, Wm.
Burdett, Sir F.
Holland, H.
Canning, Rt. Hon. G.
Hutchinson, Hon. C. H.
Chapman; Charles
Lawley, Sir R.
Coombe, H. C.
Madocks, W. A.
Cooke, B.
Morpeth, Lord
Cavendish, Lord G.
Moore, G. P.
Calcraft, J.
Martin, J.
Craufurd, Colonel
Ossulston, Lord
Dundas, Hon. C. J.,
Ord, W.
Dundas, Hon. G. H. L.
Petty, Lord H.
Dillon, Hon. H. A.
Portman, E. B.
Douglas, Marquis
Russell, Lord W.
Elford, Sir W.
Sheridan, R. B.
Fox, Hon. C. J.
Spencer, Lord R.
Fonblanque, J.
Sturges, W.
Francis, P.
St. John, Hon. St. A.
Fitzhugh, W.
Wrottesley, Sir J.
Fellowes, R.
Wynne, C. W.
Folkstone, Lord Viscount
Ward, Hon. W.
Foster, Rt. Hon. J.
Creevey, T.
TELLERS.
Johnstone, G.
[MAHRATTA WAR.]—
Mr. Francis
moved, that the 35th clause of the 24th of the King, should be read, viz.—"whereas to pursue schemes of conquest and extension of dominion are measures repugnant to the wish, the honour, and policy of this nation; be it enacted &c.," and then addressed himself to the Speaker to the following effect.—Sir, in moving to have this clause now read, I have two objects, 1st. to remind the House of their own unanimous resolution, on which the subsequent act of Parliament was founded; and then to shew that, in the motion which I propose to submit to the House, I am governed by that resolution, and aim at nothing but to inforce the execution of that law. In this purpose, and on this ground, I hope for the support and concurrence of the House; because I do not believe it, will be asserted by any man, that
866
prima facie
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ex parte
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870
Lord Castleragh
rose. He expressed his approbation of the candid manner in which the hon. gent, had introduced his motion, and joined issue completely with him in regard to the general principle, that the cause of the war is a very proper subject of parliamentary inquiry. Independent of the acts, he was ready, his lordship said, to admit of the propriety of an inquiry, both as a matter of policy and justice.—But the question was at present, whether such, an inquiry could be safely made in the present circumstances. And here he differed, his lordship said, very materially from the hon. gent. Independently of the disadvantages that might arise from such an investigation, during a war not yet terminated, on which he was not disposed to lay very great stress, he had stronger and very ostensible reasons for objecting to the motion. The government were not in possession of the circumstances that preceded the rupture; and, therefore, any investigation of the kind proposed by the present motion, must necessarily terminate unsatisfactorily, and to the obvious prejudice of the noble lord (Wellesley) to whom the government of India was entrusted. Without having all the circumstances that led to the war, it would be impossible to form a proper estimate of the case, or to do any justice to the conduct of the governor-general. The Mouse must wait, therefore, till the necessary communications be received by his Majesty's government. Such a communication was soon to be expected. That it should have been made sooner was impossible, from the date at which the war took place. It had been said that the war commenced in the beginning of June, but instead of this it was not till the 6th of August that hostilities took place. The communications between the Mysore and Poonah could not be effected in less than a month, and the latest communications received from Madras were of the first of September: there must be
871
Mr. Johnstone
was of opinion that, though the war might not have commented till the period stated by the noble lord, yet there must necessarily be many circumstances previous to open hostilities which ought certainly to have been communicated to government. It was not of the 6th of August only to which he wished to look back but to trace the war to its source. From the moment that orders had been given, to march the troops from the Mysore, the commencement of the war was certainly to be dated The very march of that army, he would insist, was against the acts and resolutions of the House as much as any event on the 6tb of August. The moment Lord Wellesley issued those orders to his army, he ought to have sent dispatches at the same time to this country, stating his reasons for such measures; But he was apprehensive there was too frequently a suppression of documents. All the proceedings of the government of India ought to appear on the records of the Company, and be regularly transmitted to this country. Were this the case, we should at all times have the fullest information. He was afraid that the war had originated in aggression on our part, and was owing to that spirit of ambition that had been too prevalent in India, and which particularly had characterized the government of the noble lord. But, whatever be the issue of the war, he contended, it mast be disastrous in its consequences. If attended with success, our empire in India must be as large as the two peninsulas, and consequently ready to fall in pieces by its own weight But, should we be defeated in our attempts at aggrandizement, the most probable, consequence is, that we shall be turned out of India, and a period put at once to our empire Here the hon. gent, insisted on the power and influence of the Mahrattas: In our former wars in India, our resources had been derived from there-venues of Bengal, which always remained untouched: but here the case was extremely different. The revenues of Bengal would be immediately affected; and in
872
Lord Castlereagh
was ready to admit the importance of the communications in regard to the causes of the war; but the end also of the correspondence was certainly equally important, and absolutely necessary either to justify or condemn the conduct of the governor-general in his commencement of hostilities.
Mr. Francis
thought that reasons might; have been assigned by the governor-general for the issue of his orders to the troops to march, which had happened two months previous to the period alluded to by the noble lord. He was willing, however, to rely on the engagement which the noble lord had taken on himself to apprize him of the first arrival of the necessary dispatches, and begged leave therefore, at present, to withdraw his motion.—The other orders of the day being disposed of, the House adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 15, 1804.
Counsel were heard on Lady Mary Fitzgerald's claim to the Ross peerage; to be further heard on Tuesday next.—A conversation ensued on the Irish deacons and priests orders bill, in which Lord Ellenborough, the Bishops of St. Asaph, Ferns, Hereford, and the Lord Chancellor, spoke; after which the bill was ordered to be committed on this day St'nnight.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 15, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. Alexander brought up the reports of the committee on the Irish cloathing militia bill; also of the cloathing militia bill for Great Britain; also of the bill for ascertaining the amount of pay for serjeant-majors in the militia; which reports were received.—On the motion of. Mr. Alexander, leave was given to bring in a bill for fixing the rate of allowance to innkeepers for quartering soldiers—The militia subaltern officers' pay bill, and the ship duty bill., were committed.——Mr, Alexander,
873
Mr. Howard
said, that he should move the second reading of the Croydon and Portsmouth canal bill, for the purpose of afterwards moving that the said order be discharged (on account of the important business expected to come on), and that the said bill be read a second time on Thursday the 12th of April next. Having moved accordingly.
Mr. Joliffe
moved, as an amendment, "that the bill be read a second time this day six months."
Mr. Howard
expressed his surprise, that, in a business of this sort, of so much importance to the commercial world, the hon. gent. should not be willing that the bill be referred to the consideration of a committee. This he thought necessary, in order that gentlemen might have time to consider a business of so much importance to the public.
Lord W Russell
objected to the progress of he bill, on the ground that the total estimate of expense amounted to 800,000
l.
1.
Mr. Somers Cocks
strenuously objected against the bill's going into a committee. He allowed that canals were in many instances beneficial to the public; but, in the present instance, the House would look carefully how it gave its sanction to a bill which appeared to him to be contrary to every principle of propriety. The subscription money, little more than one-fourth part: of the total estimated expense, had induced a resolution of the proprietors that the canal should not carried farther than to croydon or
874
Mr. Hurst
wished that the House, by going into a committee on the bill, might have an opportunity of reconsidering this measure, and he believed that it was the desire of that part of the country, through which it was proposed the canal should pass, that the bill might meet with a fair discussion; nor could the House come to a proper decision without hearing counsel, if required; and the examination of evidence both for and against the measure.
Sir John Anderson
said, that he rose to declare, as president of Christ's hospital, that the property of that charitable institution would be materially injured were this bill to pass. He should, therefore, vote for the amendment.—The motion for the bill's being read a second time this day six months, being put and carried, it was consequently I thrown out for this session.
[NAVAL INQUIRY.]
Mr. Pitt.
—Sir; I as I hare reason to believe that a part, and I must confess a very important part, of the information which it is my wish the House should be in possesion of, with respect to the state and means of our naval defence, is not likely to meet with any opposition of the part of his Majesty's ministers, I shall not detain the time of the House with an details or observations which do not apply, I as closely as possible, to the papers that constitute the object of my inquiry. I shall, therefore, state generally the grounds and ends of the different motions I have to bring forward; but I beg leave to add, that if they are, as it will appear to nee, unexpectedly objected to, I shall claim the indulgence of the House, in explaining more fully, and calling their attention to the importance of the information in detail, which I conceive essentially necessary to the safety of the country.—The object of the first motion I shall have the honour of making, will be, an humble address to his Majesty,
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Mr. Tierney.
—Sir; the House will, I hope, indulge me with some small portion of their attention, more particularly fried the speech which the right hon. gent, has delivered, in whatever light I consider the present motions, the more I am inclined to think the conduct of the right hon. gent, as one of the most extraordinary proceedings I ever witnessed. I agree with the right hon. gent, that government did think the country plated in a most alarming crisis, and I was, therefore, led to hope that those who were of that opinion would abstain from questions more calculated to engender dis-
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884
1.
l.
885
886
Sir Charles Pole
said, he had no official documents to assist him, but must trust in a great measure to his memory for what he had then to deliver to the considera-
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888
Admiral Berkeley
would not have offered himself so soon to the Speaker's notice, had he not been called upon by his hon. and gallant friend (Admiral Pole), and by some evident mistatements which had been made by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Tierney), To the first he should reply, that he was not aware of the jobs which had been made of gun-boats last war, but certainly could say, that the gun-vessels, which his right hon. friend alluded to in his motion, were not of that description, but were of a class of which he should have occasion to mention hereafter. With respect to the triumphant sort of flourish which had been made use of by Mr. Tierney, who said, that no ground of complaint had been made out against the Admiralty, and that he expected to hear of country being cut off, and vessels taken, he should only state, that something of that sort might have been all edged with justice, which he should likewise allude to by and by; but when he heard him state that the care and providence of the Admiralty had been such as to raise the whole extent of the vote of seamen, except 1700, he must suppose that he was so newly come into office, and as yet felt himself so little at home in it, that he ' had neither examined the truth of his assertions, nor asked any professional person if it could possibly be the case. The fact was, that he had taken the whole of the returns of the Navy-office from the monthly books I of the ships, which amounted to 76,000 men, I in which the marines were included, and had added the 15,000 marines which were returned to the Admiralty from the headquarters. Did he mean to say, that there were 15,000 marines at this time who were not embarked? Because certainly the fact I was not so. There was hardly a marine at any of the head-quarters. They were all embarked on board of the fleet, and included, as well as the 6,000 impressed seamen, in
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891
Sir Edward Pellew,
—Sir; as I very sel-
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Admiral Berkeley
explained. He could not possibly suppose that our naval force was inadequate to the task, of totally discomfiting the whole force of (he enemy, if they came fairly out to them: but he meant to say, that they never could possibly have collected in the force in which they now are, if we had had a sufficient number of gun-boats to run in shore, and attack them in shoal water, where they frequently escaped from our large vessels, on account of their drawing too much water to be able to pursue them in shore.
Mr. Wilberforce
said, that, undoubtedly, the question now before the House was extremely interesting to every member of that House, and to every individual in this country, and upon which he was anxious to say what he felt. He wished to enter upon this question as a representative of the people of England should, and as the people of England, or he mistook them, expected their representatives to do; and in beginning, he would say, that in his opinion, there would bean end to the security of this country, if subjects like the present were not treated with a becoming gravity in that House: this was what the people of England had a right to expect from that House, and did expect from that House. He did not think that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Tierney), who followed his right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), had been happy in 'he choice of the manner in which he had treated this subject to night. He confessed, that the manner in which he took up the subject, the tone in which he spoke of it, the temper with, which he discussed it, the epithets he bestowed upon it, the character he gave to the motive with
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Mr. Sheridan.
—It was my intention, Sir, to wait until I should hear the opinions of professional men on this subject; but the observations which have been made by the hon. member who has just sat down, urge me to obtrude myself to your notice thus prematurely, and contrary to my original intention. The hon. gent, has, in my mind, used observations the most unwarrantable on parliamentary grounds I have ever heard in. this House. He has stated, that he has never had conversation with any naval officer, whose
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903
904
905
l.
l.
906
l.
907
Mr. Fox.
—Sir; I feel myself placed in a situation somewhat extraordinary on this occasion. With a great part of what has been said on the merits of the first lord of the Admiralty, I am strongly disposed to concur, but at the same time, I cannot see how these arguments tended to the conclusion at which they arrived. My hon. friend near me (Mr. Sheridan) has made, as he always does, a speech of the utmost brilliancy and eloquence, in which, however, lie seems to me to have almost entirely omitted the reasons on which he was to negative the motion, and he contented himself with announcing the vote he was prepared to give. Though ready to give my ready assent to the distinguished worth and pre-eminent services of Lord St. Vincent, I feel that the best way I can testify my respect for such a character, is to give my vote for the motion. I feel that a slur thrown on the reputation of Earl Vincent, would be a loss to the country, and to remove every suspicion of that kind, I say, let there be ample means of inquiry afforded, so that the triumph of Lord St. Vincent may be the more complete, satisfactory and glorious. It appears to me that the defenders of Lord St. Vincent had but two courses which they could with propriety purpose, either to say that no case whatever had been made out, and then refuse all the pa-
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he did not rise to add much to the strong and convincing arguments which had been so able urged in defence of the measures of the Admiralty, but to make a few observations on what had fallen from the hon. gent, who had just sat down. Although the hon. gent, had said, that all or none of the papers moved for ought to be granted, the House, he trusted, would see the distinction, and they would he disposed rather to acknowledge
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914
s.
Mr. G. Ponsonby
was sorry to see an imputation brought against his hon. friend below, that was of all others, he thought, the least likely to be brought. He would ask the right hon. gent, opposite, if he had preserved his friendship inviolate to such a degree as his hon. friend (Mr. Fox), or if he in every instance had carried his friendship to the same extent? Had his friend by him tapped the right hon. gent, on the shoulder, and bid him look behind, that right hon. gent, would have seen a quondam friend, for whom, perhaps, he had not preserved all the attachments nor all the sympathies of friendship. Why should any wish exist to conceal the naval situation of the country? The more our state is known, the more respect will our naval force command. He could perceive
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Mr. Sturges Bourne
was surprised that the papers now moved for should be refused, when an inquiry into the conduct of the Board of Admiralty, on a former occasion, had been so loudly challenged. Now, however, 3 out of the 5 heads of information moved for were refused expressly, because they led to an inquiry into the conduct of that Board. It was impossible that any enemy of the noble lord who presided over the Admiralty could contrive to as-parse his character more than such conduct did. The Board was called on to assign a reason why they had not done as much for the defence of the country as other Boards had done in former times, and the necessary means of this inquiry were refused. One right hon. gent. (Mr. Tierney) had imputed to his right hon. friend the offence of damping the ardour of the country. He left it to the House to say, whether such was the tendency of his right hon. friend's conduct; and whether, on the contrary, he had not done every thing in his power to produce a contrary effect, and to put the country in a state of complete defence? It was also ininuated by another hon. gent. (Mr.Sheridan) that the motion had for its object to encourage and protect a set of correct contractors and jobbers. He appealed t the House, whether it was possible to attribute any motives of that kind to the mover? He was at a loss to conceive how the Chancellor of the Exchequer could assert, that the number of the
917
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
in explanation, said, that he alluded to the number of shipwrights employed in the dockyards.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
said, that he allud-
918
Sir William Elford
spoke in favour of the motion, and thought the Admiralty had shown great severity and unbecoming rigour in their conduct. This, he thought, applied individually to the noble lord who presided at the head of the board, however meritorious he might otherwise be. People were removed from places on slight and frivolous pretences. There was in their whole conduct an extreme and ostentatious severity.
Mr. Tyrwbit Jones
said, that the more this question was discussed by the House, the weaker were the arguments of all its advocates. In the early part of the debate, on hon. admiral had stated, that he thought there was no exertion on the part of the Admiralty. To that he would say, let him look at the state of the marine. That hon. admiral had also said, that he suspected the motions which had been made that night, did not go far enough in regard to making enquiries. If they did not, the same hen. admiral had told the House, that he himself had something to propose, which would carry the investigation still further. Far his part, he could not rightly conceive how that hon. admiral could possibly carry it farther than what had been done by the right hon. gent, who had made these motions. He thought that the present inquiry tended to nothing else than to injure, the first lord of the Admiralty. Without any disparagement to the right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), he might venture to say, that during the whole 17 years of his administration he had generally shewn himself to be inimical to making such inquiries, or entering into any investigations whatever. He, however, would, in justice to that right hon. gent, mention, that he remembered having, on one particular occasion, procured from him, with some difficulty, an old bundle of papers. He was not inclined to impute to that right hon. gent, any improper or personal motives in his proposed investigation, though he must own that it appeared some what curious, that he should now venture to become an accuser, and indulge himself in making motion after motion, and encouraging speech after speech, when it tended so evidently to injure others. So many motions were proposed for inquiries into the conduct of ministers, that there appeared to be no end to them. He could not bring himself to be convinced, that the right hon. gent, was really in ear-
919
Captain Markbam
began by saying, that it appeared necessary for him to clear up some mistakes or misrepresentations which originated in the course of the debate. The reason for haying stated the number of seamen in the month of Dec. last, in preference to any other month, was, that the regular returns had been made to the Admiralty at that period. There were then 76,054 seamen on board his Majesty's navy. Since the month of Dec no less than 6,441 had been added, and the return of the marines was 15,679 All these added together made a total of 98,174 men. Those returns were
920
Sir William Curtis
expressed himself to be also at a loss to know what convoy the hon. admiral had alluded to in the course of his speech; because he, too, might have had an unlucky hit among the number. He begged, to know where the right hon. gent. would
921
Mr. Courtenay
said, it was highly gratifying to observe, that every one who had spoken of the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty, had done so in terms that implied there could be no doubt what would be the termination of any inquiry that might be instituted. The present question had led to a discussion which convinced every gentleman of the firm basis on which the security of the country reposed. As long as eloquence shall consist of correctness of judgment, simplicity and truth, it will be admitted that the gallant admiral under the gallery (Sir E Pellew) has defended Lord St. Vincent with some of those rhetorical powers for which seamen are not always distinguished. He was one of those who considered, that of all others, a professional mail was the most suited for the high station occupied by Lord St. Vincent; and he deemed it as absurd to place a person in different habits in that situation, as to advance a sailor or a soldier to the highest rank in the Courts of British Jurisprudence. On every ground, whether he regarded the character of the noble lord or the public welfare, he considered the present motion fit to be supported.
Mr. Burrougbs
observed, it was contended by many gentlemen, that the character of the first lord of the Admiralty was a sufficient answer to the inquiries which were the object of the present motion. Did gentlemen mean to say, that the right hon. gent. who had so long directed the councils of the state, had no character and no opinion which ought to be regarded? It was, perhaps, his own private sentiments, that the war of France is not against our navy, but against our finances; but if there be any neglect in the naval department, no doubt
922
Mr. Fonblanque
assured the House, that he would not detain it beyond a very few minutes. The motions now under consideration, were merely for the production of papers, without which an inquiry could not be instituted. If the papers were granted, then the right hon. mover would be enabled to judge, whether or not the force mentioned in the official documents, was adequate to the emergency of the times. As this appeared to be the tendency of the right hon. Mover's propositions, he saw no rational ground for the refusal of the papers necessary for the inquiry. He professed the greatest admiration of Lord St. Vincent's character, and, therefore, he could not for a moment imagine that a negative ought to be given to the motion for the papers described by the right hon. mover. The production of the papers would also he attended with this happy effect; it would tell the people what means were pursued for their defence against the enemies of the country. It would also have this salutary effect; if the House were of opinion, that the force was inadequate to the resistance of the enemy, Parliament could then see the propriety, if not necessity, of augmenting the same. With all his partiality for the noble earl, he was for the motion.
Mr. Pitt
rose to reply. He declared, that he would endeavour to detain the House, at that late hour, as short a time as possible. It must, however, be evident that he was bound to answer some of the remarks which had been brought forward. He agreed with a learned gentleman, that any vote which was given that night for the papers did not absolutely proceed the length of censuring his lordship. They were called upon to grant certain papers, deemed requisite for an inquiry into the conduct of his lordship and the hon. Board of which he was the head. They were called upon to view with the eye of candour and impartiality the merits of the case which he had presented for the consideration of the House. To grant the documents for which he moved, would be the best means of establishing the character and conduct of his lordship by the inquiry which he purposed to institute. To refuse them would create those doubts which
923
924
925
926
927
For Mr. Pitt's motion
130
Against it
201
Majority, against the motion,
71
List of the Minority.
Adams, W.
Euston, Lord
Allen, J.
Elliott, Right Hon. W.
Adair, R.
Fox, Hon. C. J.
Butler, Hon.
Francis, Ph.
Buxton, Sir R.
Fitzpatrick, General
Barlow, F. W.
Foljambe, F.
Burdett, Sir F.
Foster, Rt. Hon. J.
Bankes, H.
Ferguson, J.
Bradshaw, R. H.
Fitzhugh, W.
Brooke, Lord
Fitzharris, Lord
Bligh, T.
Folkestone, Lord
Berkeley, Admiral
Falkiner, F. J.
Burroughs, W.
Garland, G.
Bootle, W.
Gower, Lord G. L.
Babbington, T.
Gunning, G. W.
Cooke, B.
Grenville, Rt. Hon. T.
Creevey, T.
Gregor, F.
Courtenay, J.
Greenfell, P.
Canning, Right Hon. G
Graham, J.
Cartwright, W. R.
Henderson, A.
Cowper, Hon. S.
Hardiman, E.
Craufurd, Colonel
Hippesley, Sir J.
Caulfield, Hon. H.
Holland, H.
Chapman, Charles
Joliffe, H.
Coddrington, Ch.
Jeffrey, J.
Daly, Bowes
Kinnaird, Hon. C.
Dundas.Hon.C. H.
Kensington, Lord
Dundas, Hon. G.
Lambe, T. Davis
Dundas, Right Hon.W.
Langton, G.
Dickson, Colonel
Leigh, R. Holt
Duncombe, C.
Lovaine, Lord
Dent, J.
Lascelles, Hon. Ed.
Dillon, Hon. A.
Lascelles, Hon. H.
Dupré, J.
Latouche, R.
Dennison, J.
Latouche, J.
Dickenson, W.
Laurence, Dr.
Dickenson, W. jan.
Lawley, Sir R.
Elford, Sir W.
Lennox, General
Ellis, C. R.
Lowther, J.
928
Lowther, Colonel J.
Sneyd, N.
Madocks, W. A.
Smith, G
Milner, Sir W.
Smith, S.
Mildmay, Sir H.
Smith, J.
Morpeth, Lord
Smith, Joshua
Morland, W.
Sloane, Colonel
North, D.
Scott, Claude
Newport, Sir J.
Scott, S.
Ossulston, Lord
Scott, Jos.
Ord, W.
Thellusson, P. T.
Osborne, J.
Temple, Lord
Ponsonby, G.
Thornton, R.
Petty, Lord H.
Thornton, S.
Peirse, H.
Turner, E.
Ponsonby, Right Hon.W.
Villiers, Right Hon. J.
Pitt, Right Hon. W.
Whyte, M.
Proby, Lord
Walpole, Hon. G.
Porchester, Lord
Wilberforce, W.
Portman, E. B.
Willett, J. W.
Porcher, Dupre
Ward, R.
Penn, J.
Ward, Hon. J.
Preston, Sir R.
Windham, Right Hon. W.
Russell, Lord W.
Wynne, C. W. W.
Spencer, Lord R.
Wynne, Sir W. W.
St. John, St. And.
Wrottesley, Sir J.
Saville, C.
Wigram, R.
Bourne Sturges
TELLERS.
Long, Right Hon. C.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 16, 1804.
Mr. John Clark and Mr. Adam were heard as counsel for the appellant, in the appeal from the Court of Session in Scotland, the hon. Captain Charles Elphinstone Fleming against the Hon. George Abercromby, of Tallybody. The farther consideration was postponed till Monday.—The Irish Malt Duty, Irish Revenue, Irish Countervailing Duty, Irish Hide and Tallow Duty Bills, were brought from the Commons and read a first time.—The bills on the table were forwarded in their respective stages.—Adjourned till Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 16, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
The Scotch Bank Stock Bill was read a second time, and committed to a private Committee.—A new writ was ordered for the election of a representative for the borough of Yarmouth in the county of Southampton, in' the room of John Delgarno, who has accepted of the Stewartry of the Chiltern Hundreds.—Mr. Corry brought in a bill for the relief of the families of the Irish militiamen, which was real a first, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday next—The Exchequer Bills Bill went through a Committee, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday. Lord William Russel moved for leave to bring in a bill to alter and amend so much
929
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 19, 1804.
Counsel were heard in continuation relative to the Scotch Appeal, Fleming
v.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 19, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the bill for providing for the pay and cloathing of the militia. The amendments in which were read and agreed to.—The bill for increasing the rate of subsistence to inn-keepers and others, on quartering soldiers, was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time.—The Exchequer Bills Bill was ordered to be read a third time to-morrow, if then engrossed.—The Neutral Ships Bill was read a third time and pared: as was also the Expiring Laws' Bill.—The Sugar Warehouse Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed to a Committee of the whole
930
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved the order of the day for going into a further consideration of the report of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill. He said, that previous to the House going into a further consideration of this subject, he must beg their attention to a few observations he had to offer in consequence of some misrepresentations which he understood had gone abroad, but which he had not heard of till that day, relative to a clause which was supposed to have been introduced into the bill in a surreptitious manner. The words, he alluded to were "the United Kingdoms." In his first opening of the plan fur introducing this system, he very well remembered to have stated that the power of the King to call out the volunteers, was intended to be applicable to Great-Britain and Ireland. That bill was printed on the 10th of February, and the word which then was placed to convey the sense of the act, was the word "realm," which was folly intended to apply to Great-Britain and Ireland since the period of the union. When the bill was committed, he had stated that the clauses which related to the volunteers of Ireland were intended to be withdrawn, as it had been deemed more advisable to substitute a bill entirely for the purpose of regulating the volunteers of that part of the united empire, but that opinion had been rescinded. In order to do away all doubts on the subject, the words "United Kingdoms" were added, and the claws stood now exactly the same as it did then. The bill had since been twice committed, and once recommitted, without any hon. number having land the rest fault with the clause. He begged leaver to ask, whether, if any invasion was to take place on the coast of eland, it would not of advisable that his Majesty should have the power to call out the volunteers here as well as there? But not withstanding his own opinion was very decided on the point, vet, if it was
931
General Tarleton
said, he should not attempt to enter, at any great length, on the present subject, nor to trespass long on the time and patience of the House; but he hoped he should be honoured with their attention to some remarks he had to offer, as, in such an awful crisis as the present, he thought it the peculiar duty of every general officer to deliver his sentiments, it might, perhaps, happen, that, in the particular situation in which he was then placed, some, obloquy might be thrown on him. He felt himself, however, superior to such cold considerations, and would prefer, what he thought the strict rule of duty, to every thing else, assuring the House that whatever danger might threaten the country, how great so ever it might be, and come when it would, he would be as ready to shed the last drop of his blood in its defence, as any man living in it. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had said, some short time past, that we were now engaged in a war, which the youngest man in the House might not live to see the end of. Another gent, had said, the volunteers could not be roughly handled. He, for his own part, had, in a very early period of the peace, recommended it to his Majesty's ministers to keep up a very large military force. He had stated in shies place, in that House, that we were 15 millions of people, possessed, it was true, of as much spirit, courage, and enterprise as any men on the earth, but composing, generally, a commercial community: that we had been placed, by Providence, directly opposite to a nation consisting of forty-five millions, almost entirely a military people, and headed by most active and ambitious officers. He, therefore, had given it as his opinion, that our military force should be increased and placed upon a most respectable footing. To the present system he was ready to give all due credit, as calculated to repel a sudden invasion or attack; but it became the duty of ministers, when they found the enemy had laid his plan, and taken his measures on the most extensive scale, and had collected one of the largest
932
933
934
Mr. Cartwright
said, he was one of those who thought very favourably of the volunteers, as he was satisfied we could not raise so great a force in any other way. He alluded to one point in the bill to which he felt a very strong objection; he meant "that which prevents any member from retiring from a corps, that had agreed to serve during the war." As the words now stand, no member can retire. This he conceived to be a breach of faith, and ought not to be countenanced. You first tell the men, when they enter, that they have a right to resign; then comes the attorney-general, with an opinion, that they have not, such right; then comes the judgment of the Court of King's Bench, that they have the right; afterwards this act avows distinctly that right; and now comes this provision, which clogs and binds up the will and right of the individual in the offer of a majority to serve during the war. It is neither more nor less than a downright breach of faith; and if the clause was not altered, he would vote against the bill altogether.
Mr. Erskine
said, he was delivered from a great deal of anxiety, by the declaration of the right hon. gent, opposite to him, upon the extension of the bill.—He hoped also, that the right hon. gent, would, upon reflection, feel the propriety of altering the clause, to which the hon. gent, who spoke last, had objected. He meant the clause, which prevented all volunteers from resigning, who had already agreed to continue their services during the war. This clause, he apprehended, the House could not persist in, consistently with the judgment of the Court of King's Bench, and the declarations of ministers subsequent to that decision, slating, that it that had not been declared to be the law, they intended to propose that it should become the law. Now, what was the ground of the decision of the Court of King's Bench upon the question, whether a volunteer had power to resign? It was not furred on the construction but the nature of the,
935
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
considered that many of the observations already made were premature, as none of the amendments suggested could be made in the present stage of the debate. As to the point of good faith, with the volunteers, government had always made it their ruling principle, in every transaction relative to them; and he should never, for a moment, think of departing from the most scrupulous good faith and attention to that excellent body of men.—He, therefore, thought, that rather than admit even of a doubt on the subject, he would leave the matter as it stood before, and leave out the proviso altogether. But in what related to masters and servants, he could not agree with the learned gent. He thought that the fight of the state to command the services of all, ought not to be impaired by any connexion arising merely between masters and servants.
Mr. Whitbread
thought that many alterations were still necessary in this bill, for
936
937
Mr. Secretary Yorke
thought it somewhat strange to say that after all the consideration given to this bill by the House, the system was it; a worse situation than before. There was certainly no material alteration here of the principle of the system; but, at the same time, this bill certainly went to make it more perfect than before. He observed, that the exemptions could not with propriety be taken away-from the volunteers now, after they had been recognized by Parliament. In cases of sickness, volunteers might be allowed to be absent altogether, without feeing deprived of their exemptions. The circumstance, that none could claim exemption, except a return, was made, would be a security for the commanding officer making a return to government. Corps would be allowed to keep to their own regulations about dismissals, unless they had been abrogated As to the disallowing a man a day on account of his bad behaviour, it origin to be recollected that the return was to be made on the spot by the commanding officer, who would have sufficient time to consider of it. In reply to the objections of Gen. Tarleton, he observed, that the yeomanry and volunteers were not under the command of the generals of the districts, until called out on actual service, and, therefore, though one of the volunteer cavalry had refused logo upon a message for him, there was no way by which he could be compelled to do so at present. With regard to the amendment, about which so much bad been said, lie had certainly understood that the volunteers were liable to be called out, in order to take the place of the disposable force, in case of an invasion of Ireland; but he would not press that matter, but rely on the energy of the Volunteers.
Mr. T. Grenville
said, that he had heard the right hon. gent, opposite to him, in Opening the business now before the House, speak of a re-commitment of the bill, but he had since heard no assurance of that kind from any of the ministers. He wished to
938
The Speaker
said, that the question before the House was, that the Report of the Committee be now taken into further consideration. Two things, therefore, were at the option of the House, either to agree to the Report, or order the bill to be recommitted; or, instead of now, to appoint it to be taken into consideration on some future day.
Mr. Kinnaird
thought that he should best perform his duty by opposing the receiving of the Report. He viewed the present bill as an inefficient substitute for a crude and undigested system of defence. In all the deliberations on the present bill, the volunteers, he trusted, had been considered as divided into two classes: those who entered in June, and those who had not stepped forward till August. To those of the latter description he begged himself to be understood as applying his observations. During the last session, Parliament had under its consideration the defence act, which, under all its disadvantages, he had no hesitation in thinking infinitely superior to that now-adopted in its head. Under that act, the great body on whom the defence of the country must 1est, would soon have been in a condition, at a small expense, to act in concert with the regular army. They were to have been trained by officers of the line, and were to have been subject to the same number of drill-days as the force now resorted to. He begged it therefore to be considered, what must have been the difference in strength between such a force and one trained under the present system. They were, under the defence act, to have formed a systematic and regular body; by the present act, they were divided into disjointed and unequally disciplined corps.
Sir W. Young
repeated what he had observed upon former occasions, with respect to the distinction which he conceived ought to he made between those volunteers who had come forward previous to the defence act, and those who had been subsequently in rolled. He contended, that the present bill was a bill of distrust, with respect to the volunteers, as it went to inflict penalties, arrest, and imprisonment upon those who had patriotically and zealously come forward in defence of their country.
The Secretary at War
denied that the bill was a bill of distrust with respect to she volunteers. As to the arrest and imprisonment mentioned by the hon. baronet, the latter was not mentioned in the hill, and the former was only introduced to preserve that
939
Mr. Alexander
considered the objections that were made against this bill, and against the volunteer system, to be so trifling, compared to the evils to be guarded against, that he thought it would be madness to throw such obstacles in its way as should defeat it altogether. In the volunteers he was convinced we had every advantage we could desire; they constituted a power, that would, in his opinion, be sufficient to meet the armies of France any where. The kingdom never had a land force equal to that of France since the Treaty of Westphalia to the present time. But now all the strength, and all the military elements of the nation were collected, and consolidated in a manner that never before was known; we never before had such a force. Britain was now an armed nation; and the people trained to the use of arms might be put into any shape the government should think proper. But he must ask, what should be the effect of a levy en masse? He had himself an opportunity of witnessing what a levy en masse, or an armed peasantry, were capable of doing. The rebel peasantry of Ireland came forward like a levy en masse, but they were always defeated by a comparatively small body of yeomanry. The difference between England and France at present was, that here we had an immense voluntary force, which cost the kingdom little, and which would be fully adequate to all the purpose, of defence. But in France they were obliged to keep up great standing armies at an immense expense. These armies were necessary to keep the people of France and the conquered countries in subjection. Whenever the French were to meet us, the
940
Mr. Fox
said, he wished, for several reasons, which, in the course of that night's debate he should state to the House, that the bill be recommitted. He would leave it to some other member to make a motion to that effect.
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved, that the amendments in the bill be now read a second time. This motion was then put by the Speaker, who said it was the question then before the House.
Mr. C. Wynne
said, he rose to oppose the second reading of the amendments, in order afterwards to move, that the bill be recommitted. The bill originally pretended to nothing more than to declare the right of resigning in volunteers, agreeable to the judgment of the Court of King's Bench. It now embraced a vast variety of regulations, many of which were of the most dangerous tendency, scarcely any salutary, and almost all equivocally expressed. The bill had done nothing towards forming that complete system for the volunteers which had been acknowledged to be necessary.
Mr. Fox
said, that in opposing the motion for the second reading of the bill, he wished distinctly to be understood, that he did not wish to throw out the bill; he merely wished to have it recommitted, in order that it might be amended. His principal reason for wishing it to be recommitted was what might induce some gentlemen to oppose it altogether; viz. that if it is passed in its present form, it would make the ministers, and what was worse, the legislature, appear contemptible in the eyes of this country, and of foreign countries. The volunteer system, whether it was good or whether it was bad, was admitted, on ail hands, to form a considerable part of the defence of the country; and it was admitted, even by ministers, that the system was one which required revision and alteration. Parliament met on the 13th of November; they had now reached the 10th of March, and the only measures that ministers had taken for the defence of the country, was the bill before the House.—We know that the enemy have made preparations for the invasion of this country,
941
942
943
944
The Attorney General
adverted to the repeated and very diffuse discussions which had taker, place upon thee subject the bill had been twice re-committed, and what gentlemen may have further to propose could, he thought, be very well considered in the present stage of the bill. The hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) had laid much stress upon the supposed delays which had taken place, and the proposition, he so warmly recommended* must induce still further delays. There were one or two slight alterations to be made, which he thought would remove a solid objection which had been advanced, and that evidently could be done in the present stage of the bill.
Dr. Laurence
supported the motion for the recommitment. His principal reason for this was, that a number of the clauses now in the bill were introduced on a day (Saturday) when there was a very thin attendance of members. The bill was now seen for the first time as a whole, since it had last pa-t the committee, and it appeared to him highly proper that it should be now recommitted, to give an opportunity for full and fair discussion of this very interesting subject. The hon. and learned member expressed his decided disapprobation of the clauses as they now stand in the bill, with respect to the right of dismissal, and the compensation to be given to servants and apprentices. Ministers, in his opinion, had done nothing to improve the volunteer system. It was merely a republication of the volunteer system laid down by the late ministers.
Sir J. Writtesley
was for the recommitment. He intimated a wish to move for the introduction of a clause into the bill, for the better regulation of the clause as to the number of days allotted to drill in corps in the country. He adverted to the number of volunteers in the metropolis and its vicinity: their numbers, he understood, were nearly 32,000, but out of the number, if he was rightly informed, nearly one-half had engaged only to extend their services to the vicinity of the capital, even in case of invasion. It was his object that a clause should be introduced, taking the exemptions from those whose services were thus limited.
Mr. Alderman Combe
spoke warmly in praise of the spirit and patriotism of the civic volunteers, and adverted to the circumstance that they were not liable to compulsory service, in the like manner that the inhabitants of the kingdom in general were.
945
Mr. Pitt
owned that the hill, as it at present stood, did not by any means come up to the fair expectations which the House and the public entertained on the subject; and that the hope which he had formed had been materially disappointed. The only point which had been gained by the bill, was the clause by which encouragement was held out to individuals to enter on permanent pay; and, contemplating a danger, the approach of which might be apprehended to be at hand, this was certainly an advantageous arrangement. He was afraid, however, that even this improvement MMS not carried so far as its vast utility and importance required. There was one other clause which, quite simple in its construction, he likewise viewed to be highly important; he meant to allude to the clause allowing commanding officers the power of arrest, in cases of misbehaviour at muster and drill. Having said this, he had to repeat, that the bill came very far short of what he conceived adequate to the circumstances of the country; anxious, however, as he was for the perfection of the volunteer system, he did not think that any important object would be gained by the recommitment of the bill. It occurred to him, that any amendments to be introduced might be received on the consideration of the report, and therefore he felt it his duty to oppose the motion.
Mr. Sberidan
was of opinion, that whatever idea was entertained of the military system of the country, this was not the moment for such a discussion. If gentlemen thought this a matter fit for inquiry, they might move for a Committee on the subject, and the discussion might regularly take place. At present the question was merely whether certain amendments, the propriety of which was not denied, should be introduced on the report or in a new Committee for that specific purpose. For some time past he had, consistently with a principle which time years ago he had stated in that House, felt it his duty to absent himself from his attendance in Parliament, and he had consequently not been present at the different discussions which had taken place in the previous stages of the bill. This, however, he knew, that the bill had already been in 3 Committees, and the question came to be, if it should go 10 a 4th Committee to receive new amendments and improvements? If the bill as a whole, had not been before the Committee, this would be the strongest argument which he had heard for the recommitment. If a right hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Pitt) would rise and state
946
Mr. Pitt
in explanation stated, that he had been misunderstood by the hon. member. He seemed to conceive that he was for the recommitment of the bill, whereas he was against it. Whatever the principle of the hon. gentleman's absence was, if he had been in his place he would have seen that the clauses which he wished to introduce, were not now wanting from any deficiency on his part in proposing them, but from his inability to persuade the House to adopt them.
Mr. Windham
rose, he said, but to trespass on the attention of the House for a fey moments, although before he came down to his place this day he meant to enter much at length into the merits and tendency of the volunteer system, and particularly to reprobate two clauses which had found their way into the bill under consideration, and. which excited his astonish meet in common. with that of every man who valued good faith and justice towards the volunteers. Those clauses, however, having been abandoned by the framers of the bid, and the discussion having taken a turn extreme singular in this stage of the proceeding—a discussion which would more properly belong to a Committee, he felt that he could nut enter upon the consideration of the general measure without great disadvantages. He therefore waved, for the present, the full delivery of his opinions upon the subject, the more particularly as he could not but observe that the attention of the House was nearly exhausted. He, however, could not forbear to say, that he conceived if quite impossible to investigate the merits of the volunteer system, which comprehended above three fourths of the public force, without also taking a view of the other means of our defence, to ascertain how far those means were correspondent to each other and calculated to act efficaciously together. This was a question, in his judgment, of infinite importance, and demanding the most attentive inquiry, inasmuch as it was the commencement of a system, the effects of which would grow on us every day; for the more we advanced in such a situation, the more difficult it would be to change; and, therefore, the
947
Mr. Bastard
maintained that the volunteer system did not militate so much as its adversaries asserted against the progress of the ballot for the militia. As a proof of this, he stated, that in the militia of the country to which he belonged, where volunteen crops were very numerous, the regiment of militia of the county to which he belonged, where volunteer corps were very numerous, the regiment of militia was not only complete, but had many supernumeraries, although not more then 10 guineas bounty had ever been giver and he as confident, that if any men were warning for that body, they could be had from among the volunteers them selves, whose spirits, zeal, and military habit,
948
Mr. T. Grenville
thought it necessary to say a few words, to explain the motives oh which he should give his vote, and to exculpate his conduct from the charge of any inconsistency that might be made against it. When on a former period of the sessions he moved for some papers, he was induced thereto by his earnest desire to demonstrate to the House, how inadequate the plan of his Majesty's ministers was, and how impossible it ever was to render their system permanent and when he gave his consent for going into a Committee, it was in the expectation that something would be struck out that would place the defence of the country upon something like a broad, general, and practicable principle. He never supposed that desirable object could be effected by the present measure, and he was convinced the more the House considered and turned the subject, the more they would be convinced of the inefficiency, he might say, the absolute nullity of the bill before them. For what had been the conduct of the right hon. the Sec. of State? Much of the time of the House had been occupied in hearing him make his recantations and renunciations of clauses which he had before offered, as the result of much deliberation and communication with persons who were competently informed respecting their, among which was the identical clause, which if that passed, according to I be right hon. gents admission, would have been the extremity of injustice, to at least 3–4ths of the volunteers. There were also 4 or 5 other clauses, which he acknowledged required alteration. With such glaring defects in the bill, he put it to the candour of gentlemen in the least acquainted with the form and practice of that House, whether a Committee was not the only place in which such defects could be properly corrected, and any important amendments proposed.
Mr. Sheridan
stated, that if any gent, had a clause to propose which could not be introduced into the bill without going into a Committee, he would vote for the motion, but not otherwise.
Colonel Caleraft
said, that if the House would to it to the Committee, he should there real it his study to propose a clause respecting the grant of additional pay to the volunteers, and also a further a allowance for clothing.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that the recommitted of the bill was not necessary in order to enable the hon. gent, to
949
For recommitting the bill
56
Against, it
173
Majority
117
List of the Minority.
Adair, Robert
Hamilton, Lord A.
Bouverie, E.
Kensington, Lord
Barlow, R.
Kinnaird, Hon. Charles
Burdett, Sir Francis
Laurence, Dr.
Bagenel, Walter
Lee, Antonie
Barclay, Sir R.
Morpeth, Lord
Crauturd, Colonel
M'Mahon, F.
Caulfield, Hon. H.
Madocks, William
Cavendish, Rt.H.Ld. G.H.
Milner, Sir William
Courtenay, John
Moore, G.
Coke, T. W.
Moore, G. P.
Cooke, Brian
North, Dudley
Combe, H. C.
Ossulston, Lord
Cartwright, W. R.
Ord, William
Calcraft, John
Petty, Lord H.
Creevey, T.
Ponsonby, Rt. Hon. W.
Dillon, Hon. A.
Ponsonby, George
Dundas, Hon.C.L.
Russell, Lord William
Daly, D. B.
Spencer, Lord Robert
Dent, John
St. John, Hon. St. Andr.
Ellis, Ch. Rose
Seudamore, John
Elliot, Wm.
Temple, Lord
Fox, Hon. Chas. Jas.
Wrottesley, Sir John
Fitzpatrick, Hon. R.
Wynne, Sir W. W.
Folkestone, Lord
Wynne, Charles W. W.
Fellowes, R.
Windham, Rt, Hon. W.
Francis Philip
Walpole, Hon. George
Grenville, Rt. Hon. Th.
Young, Sir W.
When strangers were admitted, the House was occupied in receiving the different amendments.
Sir J. Wrottesley
moved an amendment, "that all volunteers, whose services had been accepted subsequent to the 22d June, 1803, should not be entitled to the customary exemptions;, unless they bound themselves to extend their services, in case of invasion, to any part of Great Britain."
Mr. Secretary Yorke
opposed this amendment, as being in substance the same which had been rejected at another period of the bill. There were local and particular circumstances which rendered it unadvisable, that corps should on all occasions volunteer for general service,
Mr. Pitt
supported the amendment, on the principle that it would be extremely desirable that the House and the country should know with certainty what description and extent of service they were to depend upon in case of invasion.—After several other observations from different hon. members, the question was put, and there were
For the amendment
37
Against it
79
950
The report was ordered to be brought up again to-morrow.—Mr. Pitt said, that as he understood that it was the intention of some of his Majesty's ministers to bring forward a measure that would have a similar tendency, he would, with leave of the House, agree to wait for any reasonable length of time, in order to see how far their measure would go.—The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at half past two.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 20, 1804.
Mr. Erskine was heard, and evidence received in behalf of Lady H. Fitzgerald's, claim to the Ross Peerage. The further hearing adjourned to Thursday next.—The Irish Revenue, the Irish Malt Duties, and Hides and Tallow Importation Bills, went through a Committee of the whole House, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—Several Bills were received from the Commons, and read the first time. Adjourned,
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 20, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Sir John Frederick
obtained leave to bring in a Bill for paving, lighting, and cleansing the parish of Lambeth in the county of Surry.—The Two Millions Exchequer Bills Bill was read a third time and passed.—Sir Jacob Astley moved, that there be laid before the House an account of the malt imported into Gt. Britain from Ireland, and into Ireland from Gt. Britain, during the 6 years, ending 5th of Jan. 1804 distinguishing the duties upon each for each year, as well as the separate duties appertaining to Scotland; also, that there be laid before the House an account of the quantity of malt carried coast ways between England and Scotland; also, an account of the quantity of beer imported into Gt. Britain from Ireland, and vice versa; also, an account of the quantity of malt, on which a duty was charged in Gt. Britain, and in Ireland, during the same period. These several motions were agreed to.—Mr. King moved, that there be laid before-the House a list of all public accompanies, in respect of whom any process had been suspended, prevented, or controlled, under the authority of the act of the 29lh of the King. Ordered.—A person from the Exchequer presented at the bar the accounts relative to the surplus of the Consolidated Fund, moved for on the preceding
951
[PROPB TY TAX.]—
Earl Temple
observed, that he had on a former day given notice of his intention to bring forward a motion relative to the assessments which had been made on the military incomes of subaltern officers. But since he gave that notice, several other oases of a similar kind had presence themselves, which lie conceived to bee usually strong and equally deserving the at tention of Parliament, with that of subaltern officers. He should therefore conceive, he hid acted wrong, if ha did not bring all the other cases under the consideration of the House. He now, therefore, withdrew the first notice he had given, and gave notice, that shortly after the recess, he would bring forward his motion in a more enlarged and extended shape. His motion should be for a Committee of the whole House to consider the propriety of revising and amending the act for laying a duty on property.
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved, that the report of the volunteer consolidation bill be taken into further consideration. The report was accordingly taken into consideration, and the clerk proceeded to read over the several amendments and causes, adopted in the Committee, in order to be agreed to by the House.—On the clause respecting the allowances to volunteers on being called out.
Mr. Pill
said, that as the clause stood, the guinea to which each volunteer would be. entitled who came out on permanent pay and duty, was to be placed in the hands of the commanding officer to lay out the whole or part, as he should think tit, for necessaries for the use of such volunteer. Now, when h first took the liberty of suggesting to the House the propriety of improving as rapidly as possible, the discipline of the volunteers, he conceived, that the idea of the House was to hold out to each volunteer distinctly a bounty for so doing. It was agreed, that many must make great sacrifices in coming out upon permanent duty, and he did understand, that the principle of giving a bounty to each individual was acceded to. Bat he could not help thinking, that the bounty being disposed of as provided in the bill, it must operate as an impediment in any encouragement to the volunteers to come out, as the sum to be given would no longer be at the disposal of the individual, nor would he be enabled to provide for his fa-
952
Mr. Secretary Yorke
contended, that the guinea ought not to go indiscriminately into the pockets of the volunteers, as, though there might be several industrious men with families, who might wish to appropriate the money to the use of those families, yet there were others who might probably lay it out in procuring those indulgences which were not very consistent with the character of a soldier.
Mr. Kinnaird
denied that this guinea was an inducement to the volunteers to come out, at least in Scotland, because, m fact, they were not paid. He wished to know, whether this guinea was to be paid to them, and if it was, whether it was in the discretion of the commanding officer to lay it out for the men in the purchase of necessaries for them, and he also wished to know, whether that guinea was to be considered as a part of the two guineas which the volunteers were to receive when called out in case of invasion.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
contended, that the guinea allowed ought to be paid directly to the volunteers, as an inducement to them to offer their services for permanent duly. They came out last year because they were told of invasion, but they would not come, out up n the same grounds now when they were told, as they had been in Parliament, that all apprehensions upon that subject was a mere panic, and that the fleet at Boulogne was a Musquito fleet. This guinea ought, therefore, to be given to the men, and even, that would be but a small compensation for the loss of time they would sustain in being absent from their labour for 3 weeks.
Mr. Pitt
said, if he had understood the instruction sent round by the Sec. of State, according to the construction now put upon it, he certainly would not have troubled the House about it, but certainly that was not the way in which it was generally understood. He was perfectly satisfied with the explanation he had heard, and should act accordingly; but he submitted, whether it might not be proper that some means should be taken of informing others who might have understood the instructions as he had done, and who had not the advantage of hearing the explanation which had been given.
Mr. Hiley Addingion
said, that the most advantageous way of laying out this money, would be to purchase great coats, which were in point of fact absolutely necessary. With respect to the price of them, he knew that so far from their costing 23 or 24
s.
s.
953
Mr. Canning
said, that the guinea which was to be allowed to the volunteers who offered their services for permanent duty, had been very improperly, in his opinion, compared with the marching guinea allowed to the regulars and to the militia. With regard to the latter, when they were ordered to march, it was not optional in them to march or not, they were bound to do it; but the case was very different with regard to the volunteers. You could not compel the volunteers to offer their services for permanent duty, and, therefore, the guinea was given to them as an inducement to them to go out.
General Grosvenor
said, he never was an advocate for this guinea at all; it was one out of two guineas to be allowed in all to the volunteer, and he should vote for its being laid out as proposed by the original clause, and not by that which was proposed by the amendment.
Mr. Fonblanque
thought the commanding officer had full power by the clause to provide the volunteer with what was necessary, but then what was necessary was in a great measure a question of taste. A great coat might appear necessary to one man, while another might prefer a feather. The question here was a question of inducement, what was most likely to call a man into the field before the enemy comes.
For the amendment
39
For the original clause without it
73
The amendments being gone through, the bill was ordered to be read a third time on Thursday.
HOUSE OF LORDS
Wednesday, March 21, 1804.
Mr. Alexander
was heard on the part of the Respondents in the Appeal Cause the Hon. C. Elphinstone Fleeming v. Hon. G. Montgomery. To be further proceeded in on Friday.—The Irish Malt Duty Bill, the Irish Countervailing Duties Bill, and the Hides and Tallow Importation Bill were severally read a third time and passed, and ordered back to the Commons.—A person from the Exchequer Office in Ireland presented at the bar certain documents respecting the case of Redington v. Redington, which is to be heard before their Lordships.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS
Wednesday, March 21, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Dr. Grey
presented at the bar the account of the trustees for the Bri-
954
[LISKEARD ELECTION.]—
Mr. W. Dundas
stated to the House, that he held in his hand a petition, which was deserving the attention of the House. The petition was from William Huskisson, Esq. who had been returned by the returning officer for the borough of Liskeard, as duly elected at the last election, but who. on coming to town to take his seat, found that the under sheriff of the county of Cornwall had transmitted to the clerk of the crown the return, but accompanied with a piece of parchment, purporting to be another return of T. Sheridan, Esq. for the same borough, but which parchment was neither signed nor sealed with the arms of the borough by the returning officer. The petitioner, therefore, appealed to the justice of the House, trusting, that as but one legal return had been made, he should not be prevented from taking his seat until after the decision of a Committee. Having stated thus much, Mr. Dundas wished to abide the sense of the House as to the course he should adopt.
The Speaker
informed the hon. member, that, if the petition complained of an undue return in the usual way, it might be presented as a matter of course; but being such as the hon. member had stated, it could not be brought up without first putting the question on it.
Mr. Pitt
observed, that, according to the facts, if they were truly stated, it appeared that only one valid return had been made by the sheriff, the course for the House therefore to adopt, would be to order the deputy clerk of the Crown to attend at the bar with the last return, in order to ascertain the truth of the facts. If it should appear that only one instrument bad the seal and signature of the returning officer, then unquestionably but one valid return had been made.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that feeling, as every member of the Parliament did, a strong jealousy on every question relating to elections, if any evidence was to be taken, or. witnesses examined, he
955
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table, and the deputy clerk of the Crown was ordered to attend to-morrow with the last return for the borough of Liskeard.
[NAVAL SURPLUS.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
in a Committee of the whole House to consider of ways and means for raising a supply granted to his Majesty, said, if gentlemen would look to page 3 of the accounts of the grants for the service of the year 1803, they would find that the grants for the naval service of that year amounted to,9,951,378, the demands for the service of that department amounted to 8,174,711 the grants had, therefore, exceeded the demand by 1,776,667. This being the case, he should propone, as was the usual custom, to grant the surplus towards the ways and means for raising the supply to be granted to his Majesty for the present year, if it were not for a circumstance in the 11th page. This was, that several payments had been made for other services not belonging to the year 1803, amounting to of 579,706. These demands all made by authority of acts of Parliament, had been satisfied by the Admiralty, out of the ways and means of the year. It was usual when the vote was insufficient for the service, to move the Committee of Supply to make good the deficiency. There the grant was more than sufficient, and the surplus would of course be carried to the service of the year. The surplus was reduced by the payments here advanced to 1,370,669. It was necessary to apprize the Committee that the surplus of 1,766,000, was not to be considered as a saving in expenditure. It was not to be understood, that the expense was so much less than the sum voted. There was an increase of navy debt to the amount of, 931,352. The amount being on the 1st Dec. 1802, 3,105,648. On the 1st Dec. 1803, 4,037,000. This accumulation to the debt, was wholly unavoidable, arising from navy bills not being presented for payment, and the arrears of pay due to seamen on foreign stations, the navy debt must always be increased or diminished. All that was necessary on the part of the Treasury, was to provide the means of satisfying the demands when made, and when the demands were not made, though the Treasury should be full of money, the debt must remain undiminished. This sum of 931,352 must therefore be deducted from,1,776,667, leaving the real amount of the
956
s,
d.
Lord Folkestone
thought it was a fallacy to suppose there was a surplus if gentlemen would look to the last page of the paper where the several sums are made up, no account had been presented this year of the produce of the consolidated fund, there was, therefore, no reason to suppose that the consolidated fund had afforded the surplus of 6,500,000 anticipated from it. On that, however, he laid no stress, as there was no proof one way or the other before the House. But with respect to the war taxes, the produce of which was estimated at 4,500,0001. it was found by an account presented six weeks since, that they had produced something less than 1,900,0001., leaving a deficiency of 2,600,0001. which would reduce the surplus now proposed to be voted to a deficit of 1,300,0001. If the 931,0001. added to the navy debt were deducted from the surplus of 1,766,0001. there would remain a sum of above 800,0001. of the grant of last year unapplied, which he thought extraordinary at a time when every exertion should be made in the naval department, and the House was intilled to expect forces equal to the amount of the sum granted. He wished, and he thought it would be more satisfactory to have the amount of the saving in each item particularly stated. The noble lord then adverted to the account of the disposition of the grants for the land service, which stated the number of regular forces at 65,574 effective men. A noble lord (Castlereagh) had stated them at near 30,000 more. He wished to know whether the noble lord included in his statement the army of reserve, or what it was that occasioned the difference of the statements. Another item was the grant of 1,500,0001. to enable his Majesty to take such measures as the exigencies of affairs may require. Of the distribution of this sum no satisfactory account was given. He thought it a fallacy after all this, to call on the House to vote a surplus.
957
Mr. Vansiltart
stated the surplus of the consolidated fund for the year 1803, voted at 6,500,000
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Johnstone
wished to know, whether the saving in the naval department was owing to the economy of the present Board of Admiralty., or the consequence of fewer sea men being employed than were voted?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the saving was in a great measure owing to economy in the Admiralty, but also in a considerable degree to there not having been as great a number of seamen in the early part of the year as had been voted. Tin demands for naval service were, how ever, so extraordinary and unprecedented, that it was matter of surprise and jey (hot any saving should have been made, and that that expense did not even exceed the estimate This was the more extraordinary, as the number of seamen and marines now on board was not 1,500 short of the. number voted by Parliament He did not wish to give all the merit of the saving to economy,
958
Mr. Sturges Bourne
wished to know, whether there were any documents relating to the particulars of the savings?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that no such accounts had been given in the last war, and in the present instance, when the ablest financier of England (Mr. Pitt), one who combined the largest with the most minute view, was present when the accounts were referred to the committee, and made DO remark on them, there was reason to suppose they were correct.—Some further conversation ensued between Mr. Tierney, Lord Folkestone and Mr. Vansittart, in the course of which Mr. Vansittart stated, in answer to a question asked upon the subject, that the monies already paid into the Exchequer on account of the property tax, amounted to 1,260,000
l.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 22, 1804.
Several bills were brought up from the Commons, which were read a first time.—On the question for going into a Committee on the Irish Priests' and Deacons Bill.—Lord Ellenborough moved that the consideration of the present bill be postponed.—The commitment of the bill in question was accordingly postponed till this day month.—The bills on the table were then forwarded, and (he House adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 22, 1804.
[NAVAL SURPLUS.]—
Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of the Committee of Ways and Means of yesterday.—The resolution for appropriating the surplus of 1,370,674
l.
Lord Folkestone
repeated the observations which lie had made in the Committee, that instead of a surplus, there was a deficit it in the supplies of last year. He had recurred to the only documents which he could consult on the subject, namely, the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer mi the Budget, and, he contended, that bore him cut in the observation. The war taxes had
959
l.
l.
l.
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
justified his statement of yesterday in every particular. He referred to the: documents whence he drew his conclusion, and entered on the different items which were formerly stated. He expressed a sanguine hope, that the produce of some of the taxes, would exceed considerably the sums at which they have been estimated.—The resolution was then put and agreed to.
[MEDIATION OF RUSSIA.]—
Mr. Fox.
—Sir; I take this opportunity of putting a question to the right hon. gent, opposite tome, upon the subject of an answer which he gave to me, respecting the mediation of Russia. I understood at that time there would be no general objection to giving this House information on that subject; that I understood to be said most clearly and distinctly, but that then circumstances which were not likely to be of long duration prevented ministers from making any communication upon that subject to the House: since which time 4 months have elapsed. What I now wish to know of the right hon. gent, is, whether those circumstances still stand in the way of such communication?
The Chancellar of the Exchequer.
—Sir; on the 22d of Nov. last, there were circumstances which, in the opinion of his Majesty's ministers, precluded any communication to this House upon the subject to which the hon. gent, has adverted. But it was then intimated, that if these circumstances did not exist there might be other circumstances which, in the opinion of his Majesty's ministers, might render a communication improper, even although those circumstances which precluded any communication did not exist: and now other circumstances do exist, and they so far operate on the minds of his Majesty's ministers as to convince them they ought not to advise his Majesty to direct any communication to be made upon that subject at the present moment,
Mr. Fox.
—I am often unfortunate in my recollection of the statement of facts as they usually come from the bench opposite to me, and never was more so than in the
960
[LISKEARD ELECTION.]—
Mr. Sheridan
presented a petition, on behalf of Mr. H. Burgess, of Curzon Street, May Fair, and I other, setting forth the particulars of the double return for the above Borough. Ordered to be laid on the table. The proceedings of the election and the return, were then read, by which Mr. Huskisson was returned by indenture, and Mr. T. Sheridan also, in another instrument, purporting to be a return, said to be elected, A question arose, whether this latter piece of parchment was a return or not; the case appeared extremely doubtful, whether this matter ought to go to a Committee to be decided by them, or whether the House should not decide the matter of itself, on account of the parchment stating the return of Mr. T. Sheridan being no return. The House, however, at last thought the better and safer way would be to refer the matter to a Select Committee.
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved the order of the day for the third reading of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill,
Mr. Langton
adverted to what he had formerly said upon that part of the bill which related to the right of resignation, the substance of which had been adopted, and without which he was apprehensive that great discontent would have prevailed. He had now no opposition to offer to the passing of the bill.
961
Colonel Craufurd.
Sir, it is with very sincere regret that I feel myself under the necessity of again addressing you on a subject which has already occupied so much of our time: but although it would give me great concern to find that the House considered me as inclined to abuse that indulgence which I experienced from them, when delivering my opinions pretty much at length in an early stage of this bill, yet I feel myself impelled by a strong sense of duty, rather to incur this risk, than to neglect any opportunity of expressing my most complete disapprobation of this and every other branch of the system pursued by his Majesty's ministers in the administration of the military affairs of the country. I am, indeed, aware, Sir, that in taking the present occasion of doing so, I labour under considerable disadvantages: for notwithstanding the importance of the subject (and surely none can be more important than this, which involves the consideration of all the means by which the great physical strength of this country may be best applied to repelling the most formidable invasion that ever was prepared against it), yet I say, Sir, notwithstanding the importance of the subject, I cannot but feel some apprehension that the House may (for the present, at least) be almost tired of hearing it discussed, when I recollect, that within these last 7 or 8 mouths, his Majesty's ministers have brought in no less than 5 different bills on this one subject; and that this last, which was meant to consolidate the whole, this bill, of which they gave us notice before the Christmas recess, has at length been laid before us in such a state, that it was found necessary for it to be committed and recommitted no less than 4 times, in the course of which it has received an addition of 24 entirely new clauses, besides numerous and considerable alterations and amendments in almost all the original ones.—I am aware, Sir, that those gent, who have taken so much pains to correct and amend this bill, and to make it what it is, must be inclined to hope that the system which it contains may be of some duration; and that they cannot be disposed to lend a very favourable ear to those who presume (like myself) to tell them that they have been, proceeding upon principles altogether erroneous, and that the whole work, therefore, requires a complete and fundamental revision.—Sir,I too, am as desirous as any man can pos-
962
regular army,
not
within
for life
963
militia,
volunteer system,
964
fortification,
surprised
965
966
composed;
967
968
969
970
in preference
971
in aid
subsidiary
certain districts,
whole
972
After a loud cry of Question! Question! from the ministerial benches,
Mr. Windham
rose. He confessed that he felt no surprise at the uneasiness which Ministers betrayed by their cry for the question to get rid of the measure before the House. It had certainly given them much trouble, and was likely to give I them and the country much more. They might, however, state, as a justification for the silence which they seemed willing to preserve upon this occasion, that all the arguments used by his hon. friend who had just sat down had been advanced before. This might be for the most part true, but he would ask, whether those arguments had ever been answered, and whether they did not remain entirely unrefutad? If so, then, they ought to be repeated, in order, if possible, to persuade the pertinacious adherents of this dangerous system to yield to their force, and to resort to measures more consonant to wisdom, and better calculated to secure the safety of the country. But, perhaps, Ministers had exhausted their eloquence upon this subject, by the four-and-twenty new clauses which they had introduced, and being tired of amendment and re-amendment, of commitment and recommitment, of propositions and recantations, were anxious to send the measure out of the House, without any more words about it. To their wishes, however, he was not disposed to yield, and as this was perhaps the last opportunity of speaking upon this bill, he would avail himself of it to enter his solemn protest against a measure which he thought, if persisted in, would lead to little short of absolute ruin. This sentence, however harsh, he could not hesi-
973
existence
974
magnitude
975
976
977
improving
preservative
978
979
980
bonus
981
982
"As if the nation ne'er could thrive,
"Till every rioter were burnt alive,"
983
984
985
986
987
988
"As easy may'st thou the. intrenchant air
"With thy keen sword impress, as make me bleed."
989
"A little learning is a dangerous thing,"
aut nunquam tentes avt perfice,"
Volunteers
990
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
began by observing, that, considering how often the subject had been discussed for the last three weeks, it Was with extreme unwillingness he rose to comment on the speech which had been just delivered. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) seemed to have compressed into his speech of this night the various remarks which, in the course of this session and the last, he had adduced against the volunteer system, with one exception only. The right hon. gent, wished his speech to be, considered as a protest against measures, which he had stated as leading to consequences not short of absolute destruction. It would, however, be recollected by many, that the right hon. gent, had applied this description to a system, which, at the close of the last session, and during the debates upon the defence bill, he had pronounced to be that on which the House must rest for the protection and security of the country. After what he had heard from the right hon. gent., and comparing what he now said with what he had said, considering, too, that he had attacked the structure of the army, though it was the same as it had been during the whole time he was See at War, he was not surprised at the course of argument he had thought proper to pursue, because he could not bat recollect that the right hon. gent, who ridiculed the idea of a militia being an efficient force, was the same person who, when he was one of his Majesty's confidential servants, saw the militia extended to a much larger number than it was at the present moment. The House had heard a violent attack upon the volunteer system by a right hon. gent, during whose administration the system had originated, and who had extended it to 150,000 men. Under these circumstances, it was impossible not to have heard, without surprize, the objections the right hon. gent, had urged. He had attacked the system, because he thought it inefficient to repel the danger. He conceived it a weak substitute for that force the country had in its power to command. Now, was that the fact? Could the right hon. gent, make out the truth of his statement, that, by the adoption of the volunteer system, the regular force of the, country had been neglected, or, on the contrary, that it had not increased beyond what it ever had been at any former period? Was it not true, that the regular force, was greater in
991
992
993
994
995
996
l.
Mr. Fox
said, that he should have supposed, from the speech of the right hon. gent, that he was not in the House when his right hon. friend spoke, for he had completely misrepresented all his arguments. He had never stated that all the volunteers had exemptions nor had he
997
998
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
wished to advert to a few points that had been taken notice of by the hon. gent, who had
999
Sir James Pulteney
said, that when the General Defence Act had been first introduced in that House, he was the first, and he believed the only man, who strongly recommended the plan of employing an armed peasantry. He regretted that his idea had not been adopted, but the country was to make the best they could of the system as it stood. He would not agree with an hon. Colonel near him, as to the degree of discipline that was necessary in the volunteer corps. It had been pleasantly quoted, that
"A little learning is a dangerous thing,"
1000
Colonel Craufurd
explained, that he had always recommended that the armed pesantry should have some degree of training.
Mr. Dickinson
spoke against the bill, and appealed to the Speaker, whether, in the course of his experience, he had ever known or heard of so incongruous and absurd a bill as the one before them. It had been compared, not unaptly, to a begging box, which was open to the contributions of the charitable and humane. It could not have presented more contradictory and inconsistent clauses, if the tight hon. mover of it had thrown 4 or 5 blank sheets of paper on the table, and desired the members to scribble what they pleased on them.
Mr. Rose
said, that there was no man who was a more warm, strong, and zealous friend to the volunteer system than he was. He had done every thing in that part of the country where he resided to encourage and promote it; and when difficulties had arisen in the arrangement, he informed those who referred to him, that those difficulties would be removed as soon as Parliament had taken the whole of the system under their consideration. He was sorry to find that was not the case, for he had never known so much pains bestowed to so little purpose. The bill now before the House went to paralize all the good effects that were likely to result from a proper application of the principle of bounty. Instead of giving it to the volunteers, to expend it as they pleased, it was determined by the clause in this bill, that it should be applied—how? why to purchase great coats to shelter them, he supposed, from the heat of the dog days. He strongly objected to that clause which empowered farmers and manufacturers to make deductions from the wages of their servants, far the extra time they should
1001
Mr. Curwen
said, he should have to trouble the House with but a few words. He entertained no doubts as to the public spirit and feeling of volunteers; but with respect to the degree of perfection in training arid discipline, to which they, generally speaking, had arrived, he certainly had considerable doubts. The right hon. gent, had vaunted of the state of discipline which corps in a particular part of the kingdom, to the number of between 2 and 3000 men, had arrived: but were all the returns of the inspecting officers to be laid before the House, a wide difference would soon be perceived, and the number of corps fit for duty, and to act with troops of the line, would, he believed, be found very inconsiderable.
General Loftus
observed, that under the present circumstances of the country, he felt it his duty to give the bill his best support. He approved of the plan of blending the corps of volunteers with the regular army, which consisted of a given number of brigades, and placed under general officers acquainted with the service, He deprecated the idea of bringing the volunteers by themselves into action, of marching them into parts of the country to which they were totally strangers, or of placing general officers at the head of troops with whom they were entirely unacquainted. He had made these observations, not with the least view of throwing difficulties in the way, but in the way of caution; no idea could be rationally entained of bringing the volunteers into the field, without any body to lead them. This he applied to the idea of employing the volunteers singly; if such were to be acted upon, experience would soon shew its injurious effects. He next adverted to the important consideration of driving the cattle from those parts of the coasts where an enemy was likely to effect a landing. He recollected, when serving under the present Lord Howe, in America, that the enemy uniformly took the precaution of
1002
General Tarleton
said, he should detain the House but for a very few minutes, and his endeavours would be to correct a misstatement which had frequently been made with regard to recruiting the army, and in which that night it had been asserted, we were wonderfully. successful. The fact, however, he was sorry to say, was very different. In some districts, he knew, recruits were not to be had. A great deal of the statements which had been made on the contrary, were founded on the numbers who were drawn from the army of reserve, who were induced by a superadded and excessive premium to enter into the general service, and these they called recruits. There was a clause, he observed, in the Army of Reserve Act, allowing men of the height of five feet two, to enter as substitutes; the consequence of which was, that on a certain occasion, where upwards of 1000 men had entered from the Army of Reserve, owing to the five-feet-two clause, there could not be found one man of five feet four for the general defence of the country. Therefore, if the data of these statements were taken from what was furnished by the army of reserve, it was a deception upon the House and the country. He then called the attention of the House to the favourable circumstances for ministers, under which the present war was commenced, with a parliament confiding beyond all former example, arid with the spirit of patriotism and loyalty universally diffused throughout the country, they were furnished with men to render the force of the country completely invulnerable. But how far they were from improving these advantages, and establishing a complete and effective force in the country, was now pretty generally known. With respect to the measures intended to be proposed by an hon. Secretary for aug-
1003
Lord Castlereagh
spoke shortly in explanation, and observed, that independent of the newly adopted modes of recruiting, when the number of men obtained by the ordinary mode, was compared with the amount obtained in the former year, it was only one-fourteenth less.
Mr. C. Wynne
made some observations upon the defects, which, he contended, prevailed in the present volunteer system; the men, he said, could not learn the use of arms before they had arms given them. A comparatively small number were acquainted with ball-firing. He knew of two counties where not a single musket had been received, and other districts where not one half of the volunteers had been armed. He was glad the House were about to be rid of such a bill: it was going to a place whence he hoped it would not return, unless it was inoculated with a little more vigour and a little more efficacy.
Sir W. Geary
made a few observations upon the subject, and contended, that the volunteer system could not be fairly held to interfere with the recruiting of the line, the diminution of which proceeded from the militia and the army of reserve.
Mr. Henry Lascelles
expressed his wishes, that, if possible, a clause, which, in his opinion, threw open the doors to perpetual disputes, might either be entirely omitted, or so altered, as to prevent the bad consequences that would inevitably be produced by it; he alluded to that which authorised the deduction from the wages of farmers servants, if they remained above four hours absent upon drill or exercise. He thought it advisable that the clause should be expunged from the hill, or that the time should be considerably extended. The question was then put on the third reading of the bill, and carried in the affirmative.—The bill was afterwards passed, and ordered to be carried to the Lords for their concurrence, by Mr. Tierney,—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 23, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—The royal assent was given by commission to seventeen pub-
1004
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]—
Lord Hawkesbury
moved the first reading of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill; accordingly the title and breviate of the bill was read by the Lord Chancellor.—The noble Secretary then moved, that the bill be printed for the use of their Lordships. He observed, at the same time, that the forms of the House did not allow the second reading of a bill, to be regularly moved until the prints were before the House. However, as there was every probability that the prints would be ready for delivery to-morrow, he should now give notice, that on Monday it was his intention to move for the second reading of the bill.
Earl Spencer
rose, not, he said, for the purpose of opposing the measure, or to throw any difficulties in the way of his Majesty's government in the present circumstances, but merely to suggest to Ministers and to the House the consideration, whether a bill of the peculiar nature and importance as that, the heads of which had just been read, a measure, the principle of which was not only so very important, but in itself embracing such a variety of detailed provisions, could be maturely considered so far as to make up their Lordships minds, as to that species of discussion required at a second reading, in the very short interval between the delivery of the bill and Monday next: he thought it could not. He deprecated the idea of any improper haste being used in the progress of the bill in that House. Their Lordships would recollect the extraordinary length of time it was under consideration in another place, the repeated dis-
1005
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, it was by no means the wish of his Majesty's ministers to use any improper haste in the progress of the bill; on the contrary, it was their wish that the measure should undergo a full and thorough investigation. At the same time he could not avoid observing to the noble earl, that the detailed and repeated discussions the bill had already received, rendered its contents pretty well known to the public, and perhaps to a great number of their Lordships; however, though his wish was, that a measure of such peculiar importance in the present circumstances on the country, should receive as little delay as possible, under what had been suggested, he had no objection to take Tuesday as the day for his moving the second reading.
Earl Fitzwilliam
made a few observations, principally in support of what fell from the noble earl near him (Spencer); he urged the propriety of giving the bill a full and mature consideration in that house, he adverted to the deliberate discussions it had undergone in the other House of Parliament, and the many alterations and amendments it had been found necessary to make in the measure as originally proposed to that House.
Earl Darnley
expressed his coincidence in a great deal of what fell from the noble earls on his side of the House; but at the same time he must avow his opinion, that in the present circumstances of the country, the bill should be delayed as little as possible in its progress. No lord could more highly estimate the character and dignity of that House than himself: there were certain regulations in the bill which it would be expedient to carry into effect as
1006
Lord Hawkesbury,
in explanation, assured the noble lords there was no intention of the part of ministers to hurry the progress of the measure. He was equally aware of the various and complicated nature of the measure, as of its peculiar importance; it certainly embraced many detailed considerations, each of which involved a principle in itself; it was then right that the whole should be fully and maturely considered, and if such could not be done previous to the recess, they had no particular desire to urge its passing before that period.
Lord Harrowby
made a variety of observations, not only on the bill itself, but on a great part of the conduct of his Majesty's ministers relative thereto. In one point of view, it was his wish that the bill should receive the sanction of the legislature as speedily as possible, as it Contained, in particular, one provision of which he approved, namely, that which held out a bounty for the encouragement of volunteers to perfect themselves in military discipline and exercise. This part of the bill, when he considered the critical circumstances, with respect to pending invasion, in order to be of real service, should be carried into effect as speedily as possible, for on a short approaching interval muck may depend. The noble lord then adverted to the delays which he conceived ministers had suffered to take place with respect to the measure in question, and censured their conduct on that head. Much time had been lost. This was the only measure they brought forward for the defence of the country, and as little time should be lost as possible. He deprecated the idea of losing any time in consideration of a recess, but if such a proceeding was resolved upon, he hoped it would be for the shortest period possible, not extending beyond the Monday, which would follow the second reading of the bill. His Lordship then alluded to some parts of the bill, which, from their questionable nature, as well as on account of the conduct of
1007
The Earl of Carnarvon
warmly deprecated every idea of hurrying the progress of a bill of such importance as the present through the House: an attempt of the kind militated against the letter and spirit of certain standing orders. He knew there were certain precedents for speedily pushing bills through the House, but he hoped they would not be acted upon; it was the duty of the House fully and maturely to consider and investigate the measure. He fully agreed in what had been stated by a noble earl of the nature of the bill; it was one of an intricate kind, and should not be hastily proceeded with: its effects on, and connexion with other measures proposed by ministers in the last session, should be also considered, as well as the length of time which they suffered to elapse before they came forward with the bill in question. The noble earl, after animadverting on the conduct of ministers in these respects, contended for the propriety of discussing the measure in the most cautious and deliberate manner.
The Lord Chancellor
quitted the woolsack, and delivered his sentiments upon the occasion. He adverted to the irregular turn which the debate had taken, but which to observe upon, as he then felt it proper, he must necessarily fall into the same irregularity himself. The question he conceived was, whether the bill should be read a second time on Tuesday; and in considering this, the noble and learned lord commented on what had fallen from a noble earl then near him, and from a noble lord who had spoken rather at length on the opposite side of the House: the inconsistency of whose arguments, as operating either in favour of delay, or on the contrary, for expedition, were pointedly remarked upon by his Lordship.—With his noble friend he agreed in the propriety of maturely and deliberately considering the measure before them; it was irregular in point of form, as well as an erroneous way of considering the case, to go upon an assumption of what the House in its wisdom may resolve upon with respect to the ensuing period of recess. He seemed to think the latter day mentioned, the preferable of the two, as, in common with several of their Lordships, he knew but very little of the detailed provisions of
1008
Earl Darnley
spoke in explanation, and Lord Minto seemed inclined to speak, when.
Lord Walsingham
deemed it incumbent on him to remind their Lordships of the obvious irregularity of the present discussion. There was, strictly speaking, no question before the House, as in point of form, the second reading of the bill could not regularly be moved for, until the prints were before their Lordships.—The correctness of this remark was acknowledged by the Lord Chancellor; and Lord Hawkesbury, in the course of a short explanation as to the point of form, reminded their Lordships, that what the Noble Lord had observed, had been conceived by him in the first instance. He then observed that it was his intention to move for the second reading of the bill, on Tuesday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 23, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—The House having, pursuant to summons, proceeded to the House of Lords, the Speaker on their return stated, that the royal assent had been given, by commission, to the Exchequer Bills Bill, the Irish Duties Bill, the Irish Countervailing Duties Bill, the Irish Malt Bill, Boydell's Lottery Bill, and the Port of London Bill.—Mr. Vansittart presented "An Account of the ordinary Revenues and Extraordinary Resources constituting the Public Income of Great Britain, for the year ending the 5th Jan. 1804," which was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—Mr. Irving, Inspector-General of Imports and Exports, presented, "An Account of the Value of all Imports into, and Exports from, Great Britain, for 18 years, ending 5th Jan. 1804," which were ordered to he on the table and to be printed.—Mr. Kemp, from the Commissioners of Excise presented, "An Account of the Produce of the Permanent Taxes imposed in the years 1802 and 3, during the years ending 5th Jan. 1803, and 5th Jan. 1804, distinguishing each quarter, so far as relates to the Revenue of Excise in
1009
[LORD HOOD'S CLAIM.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that a copy of the proceedings of the Privy Council, respecting the ships captured at Toulon, in the course of the last war, had been some time lying on the table of the House, and he gave notice of his intention of moving in the Committee of Supply on Monday next, for a grant of a sum to carry into effect the recommendation of the Lords of the Treasury, in order that the sum should be distributed among the captors of those prizes.—The right hon. gent, afterwards rose again, and observed that finding he was mistaken in supposing the report of the proceedings of the Privy Council reflecting the captures at Toulon, to which he had before alluded, were printed, said, he should propose the printing of this document; and, in order to give time to the House to examine it, should withdraw his notice for Monday, and defer until Wednesday the motion in the Committee of Supply.
Mr. Johnstone
thought this a subject of so much importance, and one so likely to give rise to considerable difference of opinion, that the proposed motion of the right hon. gent, ought to be postponed till alter the recess, in order to give time for consideration, and that the discussion and attendance should be full and satisfactory.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
stated, that from the nature of this business, all unnecessary delay-should be avoided; and he was certain, that did the hon. member know the extreme anxiety felt by the seamen and others interested in the subject, he would himself be among the first to press that it should be decided on as soon as possible.
1010
Mr. Rose
was not aware, before this day, that any such papers as those alluded to by the right hon. gent, who had just sat down, were on the table of the House; nor was he either that any such claim had ever been preferred by those engaged in taking ships, &c. at Toulon, although he was long in office after that event. The subject appeared to him to be of much importance, and he was therefore inclined to agree with the proposition for farther time to consider it than the right hon. gent, had mentioned.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
stated, in proof of the urgency of the case, and the propriety of expedition, that many of the persons interested in the discussion only wailed the result, to set off for different stations in the service of their country. If, however, it should appear that the attendance should be thin on Wednesday, and that the proposition was not, therefore, likely to receive an ample discussion, he certainly should comply with the wish expressed, for putting it off till after the holidays.—After a few words from Mr. Rose and Mr. G. Vansittart, the conversation dropped.
[IRISH HALF-PAY OFFICERS.]—
Lord A. Hamilton
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for the production of a "Copy of any orders which may have been issued by the Lords of his Majesty's treasury in Ireland since the union, affecting the half pay of officers on the Irish establishment, when employed in England."—The noble Lord stated his object to be, to ascertain whether the indulgence of paying the revenues of the civil officers of the Irish government in this country at par, was extended to any other persons, and particularly whether the meritorious persons who were the subjects of his motion experienced this mark of favour.
Mr. Corry
said, he was not aware of the existence of any order such as the noble Lord alluded to, but yet he had no objection to the motion, nor to answer any question which might be put by the noble Lord, or any other member, in order to put the House in possession of full and satisfactory information with respect to the affairs of Ireland.—The motion was agreed to,
[PROPERTY TAX ACT.]—
Mr. Vansittart
moved for leave to bring in a bill to repeal so much of the Property Tax Act, as requires attornies, agents, and factors, to
1011
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
stated, that this measure was proposed in consequence of a wish expressed by the bankers, and other persons interested, and from a full persuasion of the justice of their request. Leave was given; the bill was afterwards brought in by Mr. Vansittart, read a first and second time, and committed for Monday.
[LOYALTY LOAN.]—
Mr. Dent,
in adverting to this subject, observed, that an opinion had been given by a professional man, different from those of the Attorney and Solicitor General. The subject was of very considerable importance, as it involved a capital of 20,250,000
l.
l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the subject divided itself into two heads: the first a question of law, and the next of equity. With respect to the question of law, the law officers of the crown had given an opinion different to that supported by the hon. gent. As to the question of equity, whilst he agreed in the importance of the subject, he should certainly pay every attention to it, and endeavour to bring the point, respecting which difficulties had arisen, to a decision as soon as possible.
Mr. Dent
observed, that something should be done before the 10th day of April next.
[AYLESBURY ELECTION.]—
The report of the committee on the Aylesbury election was taken into consideration. The first resolution, charging Mr. Bent with bribery, was agreed to. The second, relative to the system of corruption, was left open to the House to found any measure upon. Upon coming to the resolution in which the name of John Rawbone is inserted among those implicated in the charge of bribery,
The Marquis of Titchfield
rose, and
1012
Mr. C. Wynne
said, that he was a member of the committee appointed to try this case, in which it appeared that John Raw-bone was present at a table, when another person received a bribe, and this in consequence of a previous invitation. The committee, therefore, felt it their duty to report his name, leaving it to the House to decide whether his presence upon the occasion alluded to should be considered an assent to the act, and a participation of the guilt.
The Master of the Rolls
thought that it would be extremely wrong, upon the grounds stated by the hon. member, to institute any such prosecution against the subject of this motion, as that which took place in the Hchuster case.—The motion was agreed to.
Sir G. Cornwall
rose, agreeably to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to prevent bribery and corruption in the election of representatives for the borough of Aylesbury. The hon. Baronet observed upon the scandalous system of corruption which prevailed at Aylesbury during the last election. A number of the voters not being satisfied with two candidates, deputed some of their body to search for a third, whom they found out, and from whom they received a certain sum of money, as a reward for their support at the election. This had appeared in evidence before the committee, and he, as their chairman, had been appointed by the almost unanimous voice of the members, not to move for the disqualification of the voters concerned in the bribery, nor for their prosecution, but to move for leave to bring in a bill for preventing of bribery and corruption in the election of members to serve in Parliament for the borough of Aylesbury.
The Marquis of Titchfield
conceived the object of the bill to be to throw open the borough, and as such he highly disapproved of it. He had no objection to any proceeding against the guilty persons, but he trusted that Parliament would never consent to infringe the rights of above 300 electors for this borough, merely upon the ground that, according to the report of the committee, of which the hon. Baronet was chairman, 50 voters had been implicated in bribery. He hoped that no such
1013
Mr. C. Wynne
begged to set his noble friend right, as the corruption was much more extensive than he had stated; for although the names of only 50 persons were mentioned, not less than 200 electors were proved to have accepted bribes. This case was, indeed, so distinguished for open profligacy, that he had never heard of any thing at all like it. It was as unblushing as if the bellman had been sent round the town to offer a bribe to any elector that would accept it; and those bribes were proved to have been distributed by the supporters of each of the contending parties. He did not, therefore, conceive that any grounds could exist to render it more strongly incumbent on the legislature to interpose.
Mr. Rose
said, that from the depositions of Wilson, a man who was very well disposed to evade the facts, as the House was aware, it appeared that above 200 of the electors of this borough had accepted bribes; that they were all collected in a room, on the table of which there was at one end a bowl of punch, and at the other a bowl of guineas, from which each man had his douceur; that of the 270 who supported Mr. Bent, only 50 votes were free votes. This was evidence sufficient to convict those, men before a jury: and, with such evidence before gent, could they, he would ask, consistently with their own character, or indeed with common decency, consent to reject a bill which had for its object to prevent the recurrence of similar corruption.
Sir John Newport
stated, that the letter of invitation to the third candidate was signed by 200 electors, each of whom covenanted for and received his bribe. It was the custom among the electors of this borough to demand Christmas boxes of their representatives, and, to enforce the payment of them, they say, that they shall always have a third candidate at the election, in order to enhance their own value. They had become discontented with the old candidates at the last election, and they contrived to find a third, of whom they made use to plunder the other two and himself also. It appeared, that in addition to the other guilt proved against those gent, of Aylesbury, that many of them went to each of the opposing parties,
1014
Mr. Nicholas Calvert
approved of the motion, as he considered this to be one of those jobbing boroughs, all of which he should be happy to see thrown open. There any man, who had a few thousands to spend, might, however unknown to, or unconnected with the place, or however exceptionable in character, contrive, by a judicious application of that sum, to obtain his election. In such boroughs, from what he heard, he was disposed to believe, that there was generally an understanding between the partizans of the old and new candidates, the policy of both of whom it always was, and for obvious reasons, to create a contest. The only practicable way, as it struck him, of removing such scandalous artifices, was by opening these boroughs.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that it was enough for him to know that gross bribery had been committed in the borough of Aylesbury; that a select committee had, upon grave investigation, decided that such was the case, and had in consequence reported such proceedings to the House. He must think it incumbent upon him to vote in support of a measure, in the first instance, which purported to go to the prevention of a repetition of such practices. But he did not mean it to be understood, that by such vote he held
1015
Mr. Hurst
declared, in the most distinct terms, that he thought it becoming the dignity of the House that they should adopt some measure for the assertion of its own rights, and for the preservation of the freedom of election, in an instance where they were so flagrantly violated. But he could not, at the same time, refrain from expressing his disapprobation of a principle which had been laid down in the speech of the hon. gent, who said that the number of corrupt voters was not necessary to be looked to, for that he thought it was sufficient that the existence of, bribery within the borough was proved, in order to make him see the necessity of adopting a parliamentary regulation, to prevent the recurrence of such a case hereafter. Now he was of opinion, that the bribery or corruption of any small portion of the inhabitants of any place could by no means warrant the House in taking upon them to interfere with the manner of voting within that district. In the present case, it was manifest that a regular system of corruption had been adopted and acted upon to a very great extent. It was, therefore, an act which the House owed to itself and to the constitution, to receive a bill for the future regulation of elections in such a place, at least so far as to prevent a repetition of such disgraceful practices. As to the internal merits of the bill, how far its contents went to prevent the evil complained of, or whether it might not go too far, he did not mean to inquire in the present stage of the business, but should declare his sentiments, unfettered by any pledge or promise, at a future period, in the same manner as the right hon. the
1016
The Master of the Rolls
expressed himself glad that no steps were suggested to be taken by the House to prosecute the individuals implicated, as he should consider such a measure inexpedient. By Agreeing to the introduction of the bill, he did not pledge himself as to its principle; respecting which he should reserve himself for the second reading.
Mr. C. Wynne
adverted to the cases of Cricklade and Shoreham, where he said the elections had been conducted with the greatest purity since those boroughs had been thrown open.
Sir R. Buxton
observed, that at the time when the Attorney General was instructed to proceed in the case of the borough of Cricklade, it was one of the most corrupt within the kingdom; since it had been made an open borough, it was as free and pure as any county in G. Britain. He was no friend to innovation; but he believed that if the House was to take into its consideration to amend the state of the borough representation throughout the kingdom, it would contribute much to the honour of the House, and the stability of our system.—The question was put, any leave granted to bring in the bill.
Sir G. Cornwall
moved that a new writ should not be issued for the election of a member for the borough of Aylesbury until the 27th of April.—Ordered.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 26, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—Counsel was heard relative to the cross appeal, F. Abercromby
v
1017
[IRISH MILITIA.]—
Lord Hawkesbury
presented a message from the King relative to the tender of the Irish militia regiments to serve in any part of G. Britain, similar to that delivered to the Commons. The message being read, his Lordship moved, that the same be taken into consideration on Wednesday next, and their Lordships summoned for that day.
The Earl of Limerick
rose, not by any means to oppose the motion of the noble Sec. of State, but to express his most cordial approbation of the circumstances which gave rise to such an auspicious communication from the throne. He had to congratulate the inhabitants of both parts of the United Kingdom upon the occasion; his countrymen, upon their coming forward in a manner, so truly patriotic, and which redounded so greatly to their honour, and offering to identity their interests and their fate upon such an occasion as the present, and the inhabitants of G. Britain upon such an important accession to the active and efficient force of their country, lie felt assured, that in eases of the like necessity, the militia of G. Britain would freely come forward, and volunteer their services to any part of Ireland. He regarded this event as a most favourable opening, and which, he trusted, would lead to further interchanges and co-operations of the respective forces of both parts of the United Kingdom.
Lord Carleton
made a few observations to the same general effect as those which fell from the noble Earl.—The question was then put, and the motions of the noble Secretary of State ordered accordingly.
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]
Lord Hawkesbury
moved, that the Volunteer Consolidation Bill, be read a second time to-morrow.—Ordered.
Lord Grenville
said, that he had several motions connected with this measure to submit to the Mouse, but which he trusted would meet with no opposition. His motions were, for copies of the circular letters issued by the Secretary of State, on the subject of volunteer corps. 2dly, for the number of volunteer corps who had waved their right to exemptions, 3dly, for
1018
Lord Hawkesbury
signified, that he had no objection to the noble Lord's motions.—The questions were then put, and the motions severally agreed to.
Earl Spencer
made a few observations relative to the future progress of the volunteer bill. He called the attention of the House to the great variety of important clauses and provisions which the bill contained. He did not think it probable the measure could be thoroughly discussed in a committee before the recess; he was therefore of opinion, that the detailed discussion of the bill should be postponed until after that period. He adverted to the circumstances of the very important information which was necessary to the due elucidation of the measure just moved for by his noble friend (Lord Grenville), which most probably could not be presented early enough for that part of the discussion, supposing it to come on before the recess. Upon the whole, the noble Earl seemed to think, that as there was no probability of the bill's getting through the committee before the recess, it would be preferable to postpone it, as a partial discussion of the measure before that period, in a committee, would rather be a disadvantage than of a beneficial tendency.
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, it was his wish that the bill should go through a committee. As to the probable length of the discussion in that stage of the bill, he could not venture an opinion, as he could not tell what clauses or provisions any noble Lord might have to propose, or what objections may be offered to the existing regulations of the bill; but if he found that it was not possible, or very improbable, that their Lordships could get through with that stage of the bill fully before the recess, he should be rather inclined not to propose it, as he agreed with the noble Earl in deeming, that in such a case the proceeding would be rather disadvantageous than otherwise.
[IRISH SALARIES AT PAR.]—
The Earl of Limerick
moved for the production of an account of all sums, &c. paid at par, to persons in and from Ireland, on the part of the government thereof, since the Union, and distinguishing the sums so paid, in the present session of Parliament, with an account of the
1019
Lord King
expressed his wish to amend the noble Earl's motion, by the addition of account of all sums paid in specie in Dublin, to the same, if any were so paid." This was shortly objected to by the Earl of Limerick, on the score of irregularity, and as it may form ground to the noble Lord for a separate discussion.—And after a few words in explanation between these Peers, Lord King declined pressing the amendment—The question was then put upon the Earl of Limerick's motion, which was ordered accordingly.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 26, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—The bill for increasing the capital Stock of the Governor and Company of the Bank of Scotland, was read a third time, and passed.—Sir G. Cornewall brought in a bill for the prevention of Bribery in the Borough of Aylesbury, and making several' regulations, respecting Elections in that Borough in future. Read a first, and ordered to be read a second time on Monday, the 16th of April next.—Sir John Newport stated, that he had moved for the production of certain public accounts on the 2
d
1020
[BANKERS' INDEMNITY BILL.]—
On the order being read for the House resolving itself into a Committee on the Banker's. Indemnity bill,
Mr. Vansittart
moved, that it be an instruction to the Committee that they make a provision to extend the time of hearing appeals on surcharges made under the Property Tax.
Mr. Princep
objected to the whole principle of the bill. He was of opinion, that many innocent persons would suffer by the passing of such a law; as they would not be able to make their returns within the proper time in many instances, where they resided at a distance in the country. It would be more regular for the agent, when he got his dividend warrant, to go into another office, pay the assessment, and: obtain a certificate accordingly. If the principals had any claim to exemptions, they should prefer such claim themselves.
Mr. Dent
observed, that the bill only went to the prevention of an evil, which it never was the intention of government that
1021
Mr. Vansittart
declared, that he was not at present aware, of any such measure being in the contemplation of his Majesty's ministers. If, however, any sufficient ground was stated, some other regulation might be adopted in the course of the session.—The bill was then passed through the Committee, the report received, and the bill ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
[KING'S MESSAGE.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
placed himself at the bar of the House, and presented the following message from his Majesty, viz. "
G.R.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 27.1804
[MINUTES.]—
The bills upon the table were forwarded in their respective stages.—
1022
[VOLUNTEER CONSOLIDATION BILL.]—
The order of the day being read for the second reading of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill,
Lord Hawkesbury
rose, and spoke nearly as follows:—My Lords, in proposing to you that the bill for the regulation of the system, under which the volunteers are embodied, be read a 2nd time, it is my duty to call your attention to the acts, relating to this description of force, which were passed in a former session. I am aware, that this is but a very narrow and limited view of the subject. When I shall allude to the principles of the volunteer acts, I cannot well do it, without alluding to the other measures which his Majesty's govt, have adopted, for supporting, or deriving support from, that species of force, which it is the object of the present bill to render as efficient as the nature of such a body, and the principles of its institution, can reasonably admit: and before I enter upon the details of those other measures of defence, which the govt, has provided, I trust, my Lords, that I may be allowed to make a short observation on the exercise of a right, which I have ever understood to be inherent in the person vested with the executive power of the state—I mean that prerogative residing in the Crown, of calling forth the services of all capable persons in the country, upon actual invasion, or strong apprehension of it. This right, my Lords, I conceive to be one of the indefeasible prerogatives of the King of this kingdom; not a prerogative of recent growth, but discoverable in every part of our history: and I own, that it was with much astonishment I heard it controverted
1023
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1025
1026
The Earl of Carnarvon
expressed his entire disapprobation of the bill, which commenced with an affirmation totally repugnant to the principles of the constitution. His Lordship adverted to the General Defence Act, carried through the House in two days; and which, in common with the present bill, contained the assertion of a very extraordinary prerogative,
1027
Lord Ellenborough
—My Lords; in this age, when we are daily accustomed to so many adventurous propositions, I really did not expect that any noble Lord would have ventured to question a radical, substantial, unquestionable, and hitherto never-questioned prerogative of the Crown, that of calling forth, upon emergency, the services of all the subjects of this realm. My Lords, from the earliest period of our history, we have been by statute a military people; and this right, inherent in the crown, from the Norman conquest to this day, and which I contend to be indefeasible, cannot be abandoned without the commission of an act of political suicide, both by his Majesty and by his people. My Lords, I have in my pockets one of the most solemn documents to support the opinion I have given, a document carrying the authority of King, Lords, and Commons, and concurred in by what, perhaps, the noble Earl who spoke last, may think of very little consequence, the opinion of the judges who administered justice at that period. My Lords, the document. I allude to} is, I will admit, not to he found in any of our statute books,
1028
1029
The Earl of Carnarvon
professed that he was by no means convinced by the arguments of the noble and learned Lords. Having proceeded to some length in repeating his former reasoning, he was called to order by
The Earl of Morton;
who gave it as his opinion, that the whole of the noble Earl's speech was irrelevant to the bill before them.
The Earl of Carnarvon
stated, that he rose for the purpose of explanation, a privilege seldom denied by the courtesy of their Lordships; and if they should on the present occasion deviate from their usual practice, it was competent for him to move for a Committee, in which he would have the liberty of speaking as often as he pleased. His Lordship resumed his argument, when he was a second time called to order by
Lord Hobart,
who expressed his extreme reluctance to interrupt the noble Earl, but he thought it due to the dignity and regularity of their Lordships proceedings, not to suffer such irrelevant matter to be introduced into the debate; he must, therefore, be under the necessity of appealing to the standing orders of the House.—The order was here read by the Clerk, which was in substance as follows: "that if any noble Lord should desire a committee, it should not be refused him."
Lord King
wished, as the present was, in all probability, the only opportunity that he should have to debate the principles of the bill, to trespass, for a few minutes, on their Lordships attention, He would confess that he saw no advantages whatever likely to arise from the present bill, and he conceived that the defence of the county, so far from being improved, was materially injured by the volunteer system in general, and most particularly so by the provisions of the present bill. He censured the ministers for the various incongruous measures they had brought forward at different times, for the defence of the country. The militia and army of
1030
Lord Boringdon
spoke in terms of high praise of the volunteers, and entertained no fears of their having any disposition to disband. He did not see much to praise in the present bill, but approved of giving the volunteers the advantage of the militia, when called out. After the many contradictions of last year, he thought it would be rather too sanguine to look to the perfection of the system by this measure.
The Bishop of Landaff
thought the country was at a most critical moment. The die of its fate was in the air, and every nerve must be exerted in its cause. For that purpose there was need of the efforts of all, though not perhaps of that co-operation of which he had heard mention of certain great and honourable characters, whose talents he most highly admired, and who, he was sure, would not co-operate from any selfish or party view, to gain place or power.—Respecting administration, which had been accused very strongly of inability, he confessed he was not a sufficient judge on that subject. He had seen no proofs, no documents, from which he could establish that conclusion. But if any mistakes had been committed, it should in fairness he remembered, that the present circumstances of public, affairs were new, and that, he thought, should form an excuse for mistakes; at least it was so to him.—Of the volunteer system, he would say, that it was most noble in principle, most difficult in execution; but he trusted confidently, it would prove most successful in its effects. Who were the volun-
1031
1032
Earl Darnley
entered at some length into the consideration of the principle and particular regulations of the bill. The question appeared to be, whether there was, in fact, any necessity for the volunteering system? and whether, if so, ministers had carried it into execution in the readiest and roost effectual manner? He conceived that the regulars and militia were not, under the present circumstances of the country, adequate to its defence, and therefore admitted that there was a necessity of resorting to the aid of volunteers, or a general arming. As to which was most proper—Ministers seemed to have acted under the most distressing uncertainty; indeed, nothing but doubt and inconsistency had marked their conduct upon the subject. They began with holding out no great encouragement to volunteers; then came the Defence Act; then the volunteers were encouraged a good deal more: they were, however, soon repressed again. In the minds of ministers, it was clear there existed no distinct notion of any necessity as to the volunteer system. They brought it forward, and repressed it, just as it suited the opinion of the moment. The measures now under consideration, his Lordship thought, shewed neither cleverness nor consistency. He approved of the volunteer system, but thought it should have been instituted on a more reasonable plan in point of ex-pence. Had this been considered at first, and the system been constructed on regular principles, by this time that body of men would have been as complete as their nature would admit. Ministers, he thought, had acted very absurdly in applying one rule to all the counties. Ask any man, how little so ever acquainted with the subject, he would say it was common sense, that a greater number of volunteers should be permitted in Kent, Sussex, and other maritime counties, to what was allowed in Nottingham or Northamptonshire. So
1033
The Earl of Fife
observed, the question now before their Lordships was, that this bill be read a second time: he, said that he could not help observing, there had been great irregularity in this debate, by almost entirely departing from the question, He assured their Lordships that he should not take up much of their time. He was too far advanced in life to have any object in speaking, but from public duty. He would not waste time in complimenting ministers on the wisdom of their measures, having very little acquaintance with any of them, except from official correspondence, and he did not even know who were their opposers: he rose as an old volunteer, feeling it his indispensible duty to do justice to that species of force, which upon every occasion had acted with honour and spirit. He said he could not but regret, that many reflections had been thrown out in speeches and in publications against the volunteer system, (which term he should use, notwithstanding it had been disapproved of by a noble Lord), some from ignorance and folly, and others, he was afraid, from worse principles. His Lordship was confident, that the most malicious insinuations would not raise a jealousy between the volunteers and regular army; it was their joint honour and interest to support each other. The numerous body of Volunteers all over this kingdom, certainly must appear to our enemies a formidable bulwark of defence of our King, our constitution, our religion, and every thing dear to us.—He had great experience last war in raising volunteers in the county where he has the honour to be Lord Lieut. He has at this time a very considerable number, and might have had a great many more, had govt, accepted of the offers; and he was proud to say, during all that period he never had occasion to make a complaint to the war office but of one, and that was a captain returning a lieut. present when absent, and he was superseded, His Lordship was of opinion that the volunteers certainly had the power of resigning, but at the same time he was fully convinced that they would never desire to exercise that right so long as their country required
1034
Lord Romney
took a similar view of the subject, and would answer, when the occasion came, the volunteers would be equal to encounter the soldiers of France. They must surely be equal, at least, to forced conscripts chained hand in hand. He felt that the stake at risk was great, but was confident that the volunteers would prove equal to the trial, and repel any force that could be brought against them. Were the danger even more pressing, we should not imagine, for a moment, they would shrink from their duty. I On these accounts he thought they should be encouraged, and officers of service should mix among them. One eminent officer had given a great example of this. General Harris, the commander of the Indian army at the siege of Seringapatam, had not thought it beneath him to accept; the station of lieut.-col. of a corps of volunteers. He thought, however, that the proportion should have been greater in the maritime counties than in the inland. The policy in this was so clear, as to admit of no doubt, notwithstanding ministers had pursued a different course. With respect to this bill, he thought it contained many regulations which would tend to improve and meliorate that system; and therefore he should give it his entire support.
The Duke of Somerset
said a few words, but in BO low a tone as almost to be in-
1035
Lord Grenville
began by expressing his satisfaction that those who found it their duty to oppose the bill, were not now supposed to be enemies to the volunteer system. It would, indeed, be strange, that those who had used the utmost exertions to consolidate that system, should for a moment be considered as individuals who wished it to be dissolved, even under the present critical circumstances of the empire. No man, he would affirm, could entertain a higher idea than he did of the zeal, the energy, and the spirit of the people of England; and no idea could be more monstrous than to suppose that 400,000 volunteers, who had stepped forward in defence of who liberties and independence of their country; would not be found capable of the most important services. It was not that he doubted of the courage of the volunteers of England, but it was keeping in view, that those whom they were to encounter were troops of undoubted courage, and who had enjoyed the advantage of a degree of discipline obtained in not less than 12 campaigns, in which they were opposed to all the best disciplined troops in Europe. With the knowledge of the enemy to be opposed, it was undoubtedly the duty of ministers to have directed their principal attention to that description of force which was to be encountered. In the present bill, his Lordship declared that he saw not the slightest evidence of a regular military system. Since the commencement of the war, he had hitherto seen no evidence of a system adequate to the crisis in which we were placed, the various parts of which had any reasonable degree of relation or connection. What he had principally to object to the volunteer system, as it at present stood, was, that it had stood in the way of every other department of the national defence. The recruiting not merely of the regulars, but the filling up of the militia, had been materially affected by the provision which the bill now contained. A noble Lord had stated one fact, which effectually proved the assertion which he had submitted to their Lordships' consideration. The fact to which he referred was, that in the county of Kent, at the breaking out of the war, there were not more them 37 individuals embodied
1036
1037
1038
1039
1040
The Lord Chancellor,
in answer to the noble Lord who had just sat down, insisted that many of the objections of that noble Lord were irrelevant to the present stage of the bill. The question was not in regard to the propriety of the volunteer
1041
1042
Lord Grenville
said, he had never contended that the Sovereign had not a right, in case of invasion, to call upon the ser-vices of his liege subjects, because that the King had a right, representing the community, to call, in such a case of extreme necessity, upon the services of all his subjects for the public defence, was not only a constitutional principle, but formed a part of the essence of civil society. The thing which he objected to was this, that this bill, in carrying this principle into execution, gave the crown a power, not to call upon the whole or any class of the people, but upon any individual, and to place him in any regiment of the line, or militia.
Earl Spencer
thought the volunteer system as it stood, could not meet the approbation of the House. He was by no means an enemy to Volunteer Corps. He had the honour to belong to one since the year 1794, the period of their first formation,
1043
Lord Hobart
defended generally the conduct of govt, with respect to the exertions they had made for placing the country in a situation of defence equal to the exigencies of the present moment. This country now exhibited a force unexampled in its history of 628,000 men in arms, and he thought that the exertions of the present administration, in getting forward so large a force, were equal to the exertions of any former minister, even when every allowance was made for the difference of the present times, which required considerably greater exertions than were necessary in any former war. The greatest military force that this country possessed for its defence in that period of the last war, when it was at the highest, amounted to 175,000 regulars and militia, and l68,000 volunteers; but now the whole force of the United Kingdom amounts already to 628,000 men in arms, a number, too, which is daily increasing us the vacancies in the militia are filled up. Most of the noble Lords who had spoken, appeared, and with great reason, to be much attached to that part of our force which was called regulars: he could assure them that that part of our force, was at psesent very nearly as high as at any period of the last war; we had now of that description, 98,000 in G. Britain, Ireland, and the islands in the Channel; but he had been always accustomed to consider the militia also on the footing of regulars. Above two-thirds of their number were already completed, and their
1044
The Duke of Montrose
did not oppose the volunteer system, nor the principle of the bill, but objected very strongly to some of the clauses, and particularly to that clause in which, after the necessity of encouraging the volunteers to go upon permanent duty was admitted, the guinea bounty, which was proposed for an inducement to them, was to be laid out in necessaries at the discretion of the commanding officer: he disapproved of this, as taking away the inducement which was held out; and as to the article of great coats, which were stated to be so necessary, he believed there were very few volunteers who were not already possessed of great coats, which, whatever might be their colour, were sufficient to keep them warm: even if they had not great coats, a blanket, in actual service, might answer the purpose as well. If they wanted these things, however, they ought to be got, whatever was the expence. He had not so poor an idea of the resources of this country, or of any other country, as to suppose they could not afford to provide that which was absolutely necessary to enable their soldiers to take the field. In speaking of the perfection to which volunteers might be brought by skilful officers, he took notice of the volunteers with which he was best acquainted, the volunteers in the neighbourhood of Edinburgh, who had made such a proficiency, that it was allowed by military men that they were perfectly fit to take the field with regular troops. General Simcoe, and other general officers, had borne similar testimony of volunteer regiments in other parts of the United Kingdom. He had heard military men, of great experience and judgment, say, that the first qualification for soldiers was the intention to fight: in this qualification he supposed none of the volunteers of the empire would be found deficient. He concluded by expressing his disapprobation of the exemptions
1045
The Earl of Westmoreland
said, he was not surprised that there existed a difference of opinion upon this important subject. In considering it, however, it was necessary to take a view of the real situation in which the country stands. We were at present, engaged in a war for the purpose of deciding, not whether we are to maintain our present high rank among the nations of Europe, but whether the British empire was any longer to enjoy existence. Our commercial strength depends upon our military strength. We must recollect, that our enemy is as regardless of the lives of his soldiers or subjects, as he is of those of his enemies. Such being the case, we must therefore powerfully feel the necessity of strong exertions. He was persuaded, that the spirit which prevailed in the country was amply sufficient to enable it to encounter its dangers. So long as there existed any apprehension of invasion, it was necessary to guard against it; and the system which had been adopted was the most proper for that purpose. We must recollect the great number of vulnerable points on our coast, and how near our metropolis is situated to the coast of the enemy. It was impossibly for the country to supply a regular army, sufficiently numerous for its immediate defence, without the assistance of the armed population. The only question was, how is that to be obtained? For his part, he could not see any means more efficacious than those which ministers had adopted. As to the excellence of an armed peasantry, he thought it was quite ideal. Had any person asked him, previous to any of the discussions on the volunteer bill, why he preferred volunteers in the present situation of the country, he would have answered, that it was because the volunteer system was one which did not interfere with the militia, army of reserve, or the recruiting of the regular army. The objections stated against the system constituted the very reasons for which he approved of it. It was not from theory alone, but from practice, he grounded his opinion. The militia force was already nearly completed. The volunteer system lessened the number of balloted men, but increased the number of substitutes. The volunteers were much greater sufferers than if they had actually endured the bal-
1046
Lord Auckland
said, he by no mean? entertained such gloomy apprehensions as some noble Lords appeared to do, respecting the probable duration of the war, or the final result of it: he hoped that the end of it would be, that France would not be permitted to retain her dominion over the continent of Europe; but whether the termination of it was near or at a distance, the country had this year placed itself higher than ever in the opinion of all nations, and might be justly proud of its military strength. If he was asked his opinion, whether 628,000 men in arms were: enough for the defence of the country in the present circumstances, he should say, he believed the number was considerably more than we wanted. Although, of course, every noble Lord must wish the country to be in the most perfect state of security, yet then: were certainly some limits to be placed to the number called out in its defence, and that upon different considerations: 1st, as to economy, can we afford to pay such au immense number of men? and 2ndly, in point of prudence and general policy, is
1047
Lord Hawkesbury
moved, that it be committed on Thursday se'nnight, being the first day of meeting after the recess.
Lord Harrowby
stated some objections as to the delay which would thus be occasioned; and wished some earlier day to be appointed, as he conceived it to be of the utmost importance that volunteers should go upon permament pay and duty as soon as possible.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that there was nothing in the bill that would occasion any necessity for its being hurried through its remaining stages. He understood, that upwards of 30,000 volunteers had already gone upon permanent pay and duty, in the manner proposed by the bill; and he had every reason to think that a great many more would, in the mean time, pursue the same plan to perfect themselves in their discipline.—The motion for the bill being committed on Thursday se'nnight, was then agreed to, and the House, at II o'clock, adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 27.1804
[MINUTES.]—
Several petitions were presented against the Marine Society Fishery Bill: among them were the following; two from the owners of fishing vessels, & at Gravesend, the one against the principle of the bill, the other against some specific clauses which they apprehended would materially affect their interest. They were presented by Mr. Calcraft.—Another from the owners of vessels, fishermen, &c. of the town of Harwich, against the general principles of the bill. Ordered to be laid upon the table until the bill should be read a second time, and parties to be heard by counsel, &c.—Anqther petition was presented by Mr. Princep, to the same effect, from the
1048
[MARINE SOCIETY FISHERY BILL.]—
On the order of the day being read, for the House to resolve into a committee on the Marine Society Fishery bill, counsel were ordered to be called to the bar against the bill, when
Mr. Caleraft
rose, and observed, that it might have been reasonably expected that the framers of the bill, before they are to expect the House would finally adopt a measure so severely injurious to so many industrious individuals and their families, as this bill must almost inevitably bring to ruin, would at least hold out some advantage likely to be derive4 to the public by the measure, in lieu of the immunities, a surrender of which they required; but no such advantages had they held out, nor had the House before, it any document to shew the necessity of depriving one of the most laborious and useful classes of men in society, their wives and children, of their means of live-
1049
Mr. Hiley Addington
rose to second the
1050
1051
Mr. Hurst
said he had a host of objections against the bill; but two in particular, which he thought insurmountable. When so material an alteration was proposed in the existing laws, for the regulation of so important a branch of trade, some broad and palpable ground should, he thought, be laid down to shew the necessity; but in this case, no such ground had been shewn. No advantage was proved practicable, and yet the House was called on to adopt a bill for vesting a monopoly in a new company of men, which must, in the first instance, ruin every town upon the river Thames, and upon the coasts in the vicinage of the metropolis: hence he could not agree to the bill. Another objection to it was, that it went to enable the company it proposed to incorporate to employ any number of seamen they thought necessary, and to protect them from the impress service; he was no particular friend to the impress service, but he had no idea of giving to any particular body, but particularly a new monopolizing company, an exclusive protection, which no other branch of the British marine could be allowed to enjoy. Besides, he was well informed, that the evil stated in this bill, of an unfair price being demanded for fish at Billingsgate, did not exist. It was put up there fairly to auction to the highest bidder, and sold at the fairest price; and to take it now out of the hands of individuals, long experienced in the trade, and interested in a competition, and place it in the hands of the Marine Society, who knew nothing of the business, would he to destroy competition and sanction monopoly.
Sir William Dolben
spoke in favour of the bill, and thought the best way to put the House fairly in possession of its merits, or demerits, would be to let it go to a committee for investigation. It was said, in the petitions on the table, that the bill would be injurious to the navy: but he begged to know, if our present fisheries were an useful nursery for seamen, and therefore useful for the navy, how the
1052
Sir William Geary
supported the bill, and said, if he could conceive it would tend to sanction a monopoly, he should be one of the last men in that House to support it. Me wished, however, that the bill might be suffered to go into a committee, where these assertions might be put to the test, and the proofs examined, and its merits or demerits fairly shewn. It was ridiculous to talk of a monopoly in a commodity, the produce of which knew no bounds, but were utterly inexhaustible; and so far would the extension proposed by the bill be from producing injury to individuals fairly interested in the trade, that 10 times the capital and number of ships now employed on our coasts would be in operation: ample markets would be found in this country for all the fish they could procure. The only persons who had injury to apprehend from the bill, were those concerned in the combinations carried on against the public at Billingsgate. The friends of the bill had in view the two-fold object, of raising boys for the navy, and cheapening and rendering plentiful an important article of wholesome food to the public. No man could more seriously wish to oppose monopoly than
1053
Mr. Peter Moore
strenuously opposed the bill, and observed, that the House could not be at a loss for a precedent to guide its decisions upon this head; for if they would turn to their Journals for 1750, they might there find the record of a bill having passed their House on the same ground proposed by the present, but which, after three years of experience, instead of an advantage, proved an absolute nullity, as he had no doubt the present bill would do, if it passed into a law. No less a sum than 500,000
l.
Mr. Princep
opposed the bill as a mere speculation, by which no laudable purpose was likely to be answered.
Mr. Blackburn
thought that the bill ought at least to be allowed to go into a committee.—The question was then called for, when the House divided. For the original motion 35; for Mr. Calcraft's amendment 38:—majority against the bill 3.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 28.1804
[IRISH MILITIA OFFER BILL]—
Lord Hawkesbury
moved the order of the day for the consideration of his Majesty's message relative to the offer of the Irish militia to extend their services to G. Britain.—The message being read, his Lordship rose and observed, that he should deem it unnecessary to trouble the House on this subject at any length, as it was an affair of a partial nature. When the measure should come in a fall and regular manner before the
1054
The Duke of Montrose
said, he fully agreed in the tribute of applause that had been paid by the noble Sec. of State to the spirit, loyalty, and patriotism of the troops in question; but when he concurred
1055
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The Marquis of Sligo
joined heartily in the tribute of applause that had justly been bestowed upon the noble and patriotic men who had come forward with a voluntary offer of an extension of their services. He rejoiced in the prospect that it had opened, of having the services of the militia of both countries being made reciprocal, as it would go to establish that principle of unity which ought to subsist between G. Britain and Ireland. The sooner a complete union, in every point of view, was effected, the better it would be for both countries. He heartily joined in the address which it Was now intended to present to his Majesty, and would only farther say, that he apprehended this was no partial offer, but that it was made by the whole militia of Ireland.
The Earl of Limerick
begged leave also to join in the applause that had on all hands been given to the patriotic offer of the troops in question. He was aware of the incalculable advantages that would re-suit from it, both to this country and to Ireland. He heartily agreed, that the two countries should, as much as possible, be assimilated. The Irish troops had thus shewn their love for the country, their seal and attachment to the constitution, which he knew distinguished not only the troops in question, but the whole army is Ireland. But to pronounce their eulogiun did not become a person in his situation; that he would leave to other Lords: and it was his intention to have contented himself with a silent vote on the present occasion, but something had fallen from a noble Duke (of Montrose) to which he could not but advert. He had, said, if his money served him rightly, that it would be manly in ministers to bring forward a measure which would reader the extension of the militia service a
1057
Lord Grenville
observed, that as this motion did. not go to pledge the House to any thing, but was merely an address of thanks to his Majesty, stating the satisfaction of the House at the offer which had been made, he did not mean to throw any difficulty in its way. But he certainly entirely agreed in the sentiments that had been delivered by the noble Duke, (of Montrose). He was fully convinced of the impolitic and injudicious nature of introducing into the army a deliberative spirit, which had its origin in the volunteer system. Parliament was the place where deliberation ought to take place; and they ought, in the first instance, to adopt measures which it would be incumbent on the military of every description to obey, instead of having their deliberation dependent upon any voluntary offers that might be made. It was impossible certainly to withhold the highest tribute of applause from the men who had made the present patriotic, spirited, and loyal offer of an extended service. He did not at all mean to throw any reflection upon them. He most entirely concurred with what the noble Marquis (of Sligo) had said, that the two countries ought to be united closely together, not in name only, but in effect; and lie believed that the reciprocal services of the militia of both countries would be a desirable thing; but it ought to be recollected, that his Majesty's ministers had been advised to extend the services of the militia of Ireland, when they were raised at the beginning of the war, to this country. They were raised by bounty, not by ballot, but the advice was rejected. It had been said, that our hands were tied by good faith to the militia: it was true; but to whom was this owing?
1058
Lord Hobart,
in reply to Lord Grenville, observed, that he recollected no such advice as had been referred to, but now it was impossible to break our faith with the militia. He concurred in the applause bestowed on the troops in question, and said, that from his long residence in Ireland, he knew that an equal spirit of patriotism prevailed in the whole army in. that country.
Earl Darnley
only rose to advert to a point mentioned by the noble Sec. of State. He could not perceive how the reciprocal services of the militia of both countries could augment our disposable force. He agreed in the applause bestowed on the troops in question, but the message was worded in such a way, that there was no understanding whether the offer had been made by all the militia, by whole regiments, or by parcels of regiments. This was a point of some importance to ascertain.
Lord Grenville
wished that the subject should be properly understood. Was it all the militia who had offered, or some regiments, or was it some parcels of regiments?
Lord Hawesbury
said, that as far as his recollection served, it was made by whole regiments.—"The question on the address was then put and carried without opposition.
[PRIESTS' ORDERS.]—
On the second reading of the Priests' Orders Bill,
The Bishop of St. Asaph
observed, that the united Church was under obligations to the noble and learned Lord who had
1059
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 28.1804
[MINUTES.]—
A new writ was issued for the election of a member, in the room of James Hare, Esq. deceased.—A message from the Lords informed the House, that their Lordships had agreed to the Expiring Laws Bill, to the Flax-Seed Importation Bill, and several private bills.—An account was laid on the table, by Mr. Steele, of the amount of the Army Extraordinaries up to the 24th Dec. 1803. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—A particular account was also laid upon the table from the Treasury, of the different sums stated in the disposition-paper, stating how much of them had been paid into the Treasury, and how much yet remained to be paid in. Ordered to lie on the table.—The Pancras Poor Bill was read a third time, and passed.—A petition was presented from the malsters of the county of Essex against the malt duty. Ordered to lie on the table.—Lord Marsham appeared at the bar, and stated, that he was requested by the committee, of which he had the honour to be president, to represent to the House that the committee had now been sitting for eight weeks; that the counsel on both sides were of opinion, that no ultimate delay would be occasioned in the decision of the case before them, even were they allowed to adjourn for a few days; on the contrary, they should be better enabled to proceed in the business, by having this leisure time allowed them; nor would the adjournment give rise to any additional increase of expense. On these grounds, he trusted the House would permit the committee to adjourn, on their
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[IRISH MILITIA FAMILIES.]—
Mr. Corry
moved the order of the day for taking into further consideration the report of the bill for providing for the Irish militiamen and their families.
Mr. Foster
renewed his objections to the bill, more particularly to the clause which went to deprive certain of the militia from the benefit which former bills held out to them, and on the condition of being entitled to which they had enlisted. He enumerated the various hardships to which their wives would be exposed, if the present clause remained unaltered, and contended that it would operate with regard to the militiamen, to whom he bad more particularly alluded, as a breach of faith on the part of Parliament.
Mr. Corry
observed, that when the bill to which the right hon. gent, referred were, passed, they had the concurrence of that right hon. gent. The mode in which the proposed allowances were formerly paid differed materially from that in which it was now intended they should be paid. They were now to flow immediately from the Exchequer; and if the clause was amended in the manner the right hon. gent, suggested, it would become an impediment in the way of the new regulations which it was deemed expedient to adopt. The militiamen were now entitled to as good an allowance as they were formerly; and he was at a loss to see how the new plan could be considered as a breach of faith on the part of Parliament—After a few words in explanation between Mr. Foster and Mr. Corry, the clause was allowed to remain in its ori-
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[MALT DUTIES.]—
Lord Archibald Hamilton,
anxious that on the part of Scotland every possible information should be laid before the committee appointed to inquire into what difference should be allowed in the duty payable on malt made from Scotch barley, and that made from English barley, rose pursuant to notice to move, that four gents, whom he should name be further added to that committee. The noble Lord then moved, that Sir John Sinclair be added to it; agreed to: also Mr. Kinnaird, also Sir William Erskine; agreed to: also Sir William Pulteney. But here it was observed, that the hon. Baronet's name stood already among those who had been appointed on the committee.
Sir Robert Buxton
thought that England was as much interested in the consideration of this question as Scotland could be:he should therefore move to-morrow (not being now prepared with the names), that 4 gents, from the latter part of G. Britain be further added to the committee.
Mr. Kinnaird
observed, that the addition proposed by his noble, friend was not intended as increasing the number of voters, but the mass of information that might be brought before the committee.
LISKEARD ELECTION.]—
Mr. Sheridan
rose to present a petition on the part of. T. Sheridan, Esq. complaining of an undue return for the above borough at the last election. The hon. gent, said, that he should move that the petition be taken into consideration on as early a day as possible after the 17th of April, on which day the petition on the question of right was to be discussed. Indeed, he did not imagine that the petition presented by the other candidate, and which stood for threfore of next month, could with propriety be considered and decided upon, until after the question of right should have been settled. The decision of that question might materially affect the fate of the petition which lie had just presented; and he could not see that the delaying of the former petition till after the decision of the question of right could be attended with any disadvantage.—Monday, the 23d of April, was accordingly fixed upon for taking into consideration the petition in behalf of Mr. T. Sheridan.—Mr. She-
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Mr. Pitt
complained of irregularity on the part of the hon. gent, in having omitted to give notice of this motion. He also contended, that, consistent with the usual proceedings of the House, and the fair, claim of the other candidate, the motion could not possibly be acceded to.
Mr. Sheridan
observed, that the right hon. gent, seemed also to be a wandering light, and not a fixed star; for had he been in his place yesterday, he would have known that a regular notice had been duly given of his present motion. Mr. Sheridan re-stated, and persisted in his arguments in favour of the motion.
Mr. Burroughs
differed in opinion with Mr. Sheridan, and thought it unfair that-the business should be brought forward in the absence of Mr. Huskisson.
Mr. Bragge.
was also of opinion, that the order for taking Mr. Huskisson's petition into consideration on the 9th April, could not be withdrawn.—After a few words from Mr. Sheridan, who declared he did not know that Mr. Huskisson was out of town, the question was put on his motion, and it was negatived.
[LORD HOOD'S CLAIM.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
moved the order of the day for the House to resolve itself into a committee of supply, and that the papers respecting Lord Hood's claims relative to the captures at Toulon, should be referred to the said committee; which was ordered. The House having resolved itself into a committee, the right hon. gent, said, he had to call the attention of the committee of a subject, which he could not help thinking required all that indulgence and liberality which they were always accustomed to shew to the exertions of the British navy, a subject which connected itself with one of the most splendid exertions of our navy, during the last war, and related to officers and seamen as meritorious as any in the British service. It was impossible that any one could doubt the merit of the service performed by Lord Hood at Toulon. The present subject affected the interests of Lord Hood, Lord Keith, Lord Radstock, and other distinguished officers, and of all the officers and seamen under the command of Lord Hood, upon that
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l.
Mr. Pierrerpoint
bore testimony to the excellent character left behind them at Toulon by Lord Hood, Lord Hotham, and the other Officers serving there. Had any of them fallen in that affair, the House would not have hesitated to have voted them a monument; and with respect to those who survived, let it not be said, that, when living, you denied them bread, to whom, if dead, you would have given a stone.
Mr. George Johnstone
felt it a painful task to oppose a motion like the present, where personal feelings were interested, and especially the feelings of persons who had so signally deserved of their country. There was a distinction to be taken in the present question, it was intended to decide on the interest, not on the honour of the persons concerned. But to make it plain and distinct, it was only necessary to determine it was a. question of right; or to examine whether it came before the House as a case of liberality? Perhaps the right hon. gent, intended to make it assume both aspects. For his arguments appealed at one time to the liberality, at another to the justice of the House. It was true, indeed, that in such cases, it seldom happened that the liberality of the House was appealed to in vain.—If, however, the House was to decide according to strict justice, the question before them would simply be, whether the capture, or the possession rather, of the ships at Toulon, was prize or no prize? This might be collected from attention to the circumstances under which they came into our power; but he was not willing to enter into a detail of the particulars which accompanied the transaction. It was enough to state, that the ships came into our possession in consequence of a convention. Then we
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Sir Home Popham.
—Sir; the question before the Committee, on which I did not expect any difference of opinion, is so intimately connected with the profession to which I have the honour of belonging, that I cannot resist offering a few remarks on the subject, especially us neither the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the hon. gent, who spoke last have fairly and correctly stated the case with respect to this point; whether the French fleet was delivered over to the noble and gallant Admiral, or whether it was taken possession of by a military operation. That the operation might have been combined I have no doubt, and that intercourse might have been had with some of the factious in Toulon is also very probable, but the predominant feature was certainly military. On the 23d of August Lord Hood appeared off Toulon with 14 sail of the line, where he found Admiral St. Julien (a creature of the Republic) in command of the French fleet of seventeen sail of the line, and who had suspended Admiral Trogoffe from all his functions and command, and consequently all the expected co-operation on the part of Trogoffe was at an end, and the gallant admiral decided to attack the French fleet in the formidable position in which it was moored; and like a great general (having long established his character as a great admiral) he disembarked the part of the army serving in his fleet with the marines, and took possession of Fort La Malgue. After this was achieved, did he not send a flag of truce to St. Julien, the French admiral, and make a disposition to attack his fleet at anchor from the catteries of La Malgue and the co-operation of the British fleet? These preparations, and the name of the noble admiral, and the recollection of the victories that composed its glory, had the greatest effect on St. Julien; the British admiral's conduct at Basse Terre, where he manœuvred the French admiral De Grasse from his Anchorage, and took possession of it, was fresh in St. Julien's memory, he knew he had to contend with a man who had been in the habits of turning his countrymen out of their roadsteads, and taking possession of them and that the same military talent might be applied here. Shall we, says St. Julien to his partizans, give another opportunity of adding new laurels to
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Mr. Creevey
considered this motion to involve a question more proper for the Admiralty Court to decide upon than that House; and as he knew nothing more dangerous than any interference on the part of the House with whatever belonged to the jurisdiction of the courts of law, he should
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
explained what he had said with respect to the original capture of those ships. He admitted that there was something of the character of a convention about it, but not such an one as that attributed to it by the learned gent, on the other side, lie denied that he had ever pressed this motion as a claim of right, lie urged it as an appeal to the liberality of the House; and he confessed that he felt it to be an appeal to something more than liberality, considering all the circumstances, although he had relied on that principally, and he was persuaded it was that to which a deserving British officer could never apply in vain. When the peculiar nature of this case was candidly viewed; when the time which those ships had been in use, and the benefit resulting there from to the country was considered, he trusted that no difference of opinion could arise as to the propriety of granting to those gallant officers a full equivalent, particularly as it must be recollected that the application was not new in principle, but recognized by the cases to which he had already referred; cases which he contended were analogous to that before the committee.
Dr. Laurence
wished it to be distinctly understood, that liberality was the only ground upon which this proposition rested; und, in such a case, he certainly was not disposed to be a niggardly remunerator to any of those gallant men who formed the pride and glory of the country. The learned gent, took notice of the remarks of the hon. admiral (Sir H. Popham) that we should accede to the motion before the committee, lest the rejection of it should damp the zeal of our fleets, particularly that now probably before Toulon. For himself, he felt no apprehension on that score. Whatever might be the result of the present motion, he knew the gallant and disinterested character of our navy too well, to suppose that any consideration of gain could stimulate them, or any apprehension of loss could restrain them, from the utmost exertion of their duty. He recommended that further time should be taken fully to examine the nature of this question, before the motion should be adopted; and that a motion of this nature should be preceded by a resolution of the House as to the fact of the merit of the force to whom the proposed reward was to be given.
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the learned gent, had done ministers nothing more than justice in stating that they had brought this motion forward from a sense of duty. As to the distinction made between the grounds of right and liberality, the proposition of this claim to Parliament was itself a proof that it was not conceived to rest upon the ground of right; for if it was, no such application need have been made. Neither of the cases referred to, namely, those of the Helder and Copenhagen, were brought before Parliament. The right of his Majesty to grant a remuneration for those ships was not doubled; but yet, from the amount of the present claim, and from the time which had gone by since the expedition to Toulon, referred to in the motion, an application to Parliament was deemed the proper mode of proceeding.
Sir Home Popham,
in allusion to the notice taken of his sentiments by the learned gent, on the lower bench, said, that perhaps in his anxiety for the adoption of the motion before the House, he might have used expressions too strong; but yet lie hoped it was not supposed that he could be capable of thinking a British seaman would be influenced by such motives as the learned gent, had inferred from those expressions.
Dr. Laurence
said he had only animadverted on the sentiments referred to by the hon. admiral, in order to have it disclaimed.
Mr. William Smith
thought, that whenever a British House of Commons was called upon to vote away such a sum, their disposition to investigate the reasons on which they were so called, ought not to be counteracted by the expectation of any other discussion. The matter itself was of sufficient importance. If he was to consult merely what, generally speaking, was due to the glorious exertions of the navy; if he were to consult his own feelings for many in that service with whom he was connected, he should not feel a moment's doubt as to the voting of the money, and, indeed, he had come down to the House with a disposition to do so; but he must confess, that what he had al-
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Admiral Berkeley
said, that the soldiers on board Lord Hood's fleet at the time the French ships were taken possession of, were unquestionably entitled to their share of this prize money, but none of the troops which arrived at Toulon subsequent to that transaction.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought that there was no doubt that soldiers in the situation on board described by the hon. admiral, would, in the distribution of the prize-money, be considered as marines.
Sir William Scott
declined to give any opinion upon the general question impli-
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Mr. Kinnaird
considered this a question of much importance. He would ask, whether, if the Bourbon family should be restored to the throne of France, this House might not be again called upon to give a remuneration for those ships. He thought such a claim in such an event not improbable, and for that and other reasons stated, he would oppose the motion, and move the previous question.—This motion was considered irregular in a committee.
Mr. Johnstone
observed that Lord Mulgrave was at Toulon, and asked if it was intended in the proposed distribution of this prize-money that his lordship should share as a marine? The hon. member said, that he understood there were 4 regiments of land forces at Toulon, who were entitled to their proportion of this remuneration.
Admiral Berkeley
said, there were only 2 regiments serving as marines.
Sir Charles Pole
observed, that the force which was at Toulon under gen. O'Hara, arrived after the ships were captured, and therefore had no claim to any of this money proposed to be voted.
Mr. Windham
thought the result of all the discussion was this, that the House could not now come to any decision upon the subject, and considering this question exceedingly complicated, he wished that further time should be allowed to examine its details; so fully persuaded was he of the necessity for such time, that if any hon. member would move the chairman should leave the chair, he would support him.
Mr. Kinnaird
rose, and moved that the chairman should leave the Chair.—This motion was negatived without a division, and the original motion was carried. The House resumed, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.
[IRISH MILITIA OFFER BILL.]—
Mr. Secretary Yorke
moved the consideration of his Majesty's message, relative to the offers made by several regiments of Irish militia to extend their services to this country.
Sir Francis Burdett
said, he did, not
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Mr. Fuller
said, that it gentlemen had any objections to state to this measure, they ought to state them at once; but if they did not know what the measures to be proposed were, it would be as well to wait till they did, before they expressed their objections.—The order of the day was then read, and the Speaker having read his Majesty's Message,
Mr. Secretary Yorke
rose, and addressed the House to the following effect.—Sir; in calling the attention of the House to the message of his Majesty, which has been just read, I conceive that there can exist very little doubt of the general concurrence of the House in carrying to the foot of the Throne their unanimous expressions of joy and satisfaction at the communication which has been made, and of this additional proof of the zeal and loyalty of the Irish militia. I should conceive, Sir, that there can hardly be any person in the House who can rind any difficulty in expressing his concurrence and warm approbation at this generous and spontaneous return on the part of the militia of Ireland, for an equally generous and spontaneous effort which was made on a former occasion by the militia of England, who offered their services to go to Ireland, at a time when that country was in a state of considerable danger. But, as his Majesty's message applies only to a part of the measures that are under the consideration of govt. for augmenting the disposeable part of our military force, I hope shall be excused if I advert shortly to other subjects which form a part of that general plan. Before I proceed to state those points, I think it may be material to recall the recollection of the House to the present state of our military force, because although it has been stated on former occasions in a general way, yet it has never been slated in that distinct and detailed manner which was necessary to make a proper impression upon the House. After having stated the
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Mr. Pilt
rose and said—I do not rise, Sir, to trouble the House with any discussion at present; the subject is indeed well deserving the attention of the House; but the more proper period for discussing it will be when the different topics enlarged upon by the right hon. gent, to-night shall be brought forward in the shape of bills,. when I shall take an opportunity of delivering my sentiments more at large. To this address I concur in common with the. House, and all those who recollect with pleasure the cordiality and zeal of the militia of this country, who set to those of Ireland an example which has excited their emulation, and which they now, so much to their honour, imitate: this is a subject on which there can be no difference of opinion, but in which we must all feel equal delight, I do not think this an oc-
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Mr. Windham.
—Sir; as there will be a considerable interval between the present period, and the final discussion of the subject now before the House, I shall not be under the necessity of detaining the Mouse so long as I otherwise should, perhaps, feel it my ditty to do; but it is necessary for me to observe, that although the right hon. gent, has gone into the whole measure at once, on a general statement of the matter which he is hereafter to propose, which may therefore be hereafter discussed; yet those who feel like myself, must be anxious not to appear to assent to all he states, and therefore I shall say 41 few words on the subject of the message from his Majesty, and the address proposed by the right hon. gent. There cannot be the least hesitation to assent to the first, and, indeed, what may be called the formal part of the address to his Majesty, which returns thanks to his Majesty for his gracious communication; as little objection can there be made to the acknowledgment of the zeal of the militia of Ireland, or of the people of that country in the common cause; but it remains for me and for those who think with me to say, that we are not prepared to adopt measures to carry into execution any particular plan, until we have had an opportunity of considering what that plan is. The first and leading objection I have to accepting the present offer of the Irish militia is, an objection to the principle of the thing, that is, because by it. a body of men assembled for efficient military purposes, are to go beyond the terms of their original service. I do not say that no condition of things can do away this objection, because there may be a condition things which will do away all objections
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Lord Castlereagh
said, he should follow the example of the right hon. gent, who had just sat down, by not entering into the general statement that had been so ably made by his right hon. friend. The general principle upon which that statement rested, was so intimately connected with the address, that one could not support one part without approving of the whole. The objections of the right hon.
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Mr. Bastard
expressed a hope, that the right hon. gent, would withdraw his amendment, as it would be understood, that by suffering the address to be voted, he should not be precluded from giving every opposition he might feel it his duty to make, to any measure which might appear to trench upon the fundamental principles of the constitution of the militia forces.
Dr. Laurence,
from what had fallen from the hon. member who had just sat down, was inclined to conclude that there were two questions to be considered as to the address and amendment, and that by voting for the address, gent, would be considered as pledged to the subsequent measures, The noble Lord might possibly, from his acquaintance with the state of Ireland, be capable of forming an opinion whether 10,000 men could be spared well at this time; but, for his own part, unless a case of strong necessity should be made out, he should not accede to such a measure. In 1798, when the English militia volunteered their services to Ireland, there was a rebellion raging there, which left
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The Hon. C. H. Hutchinson
declared,
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Mr. Banks
thought this a matter of very serious moment, which deserved the most mature consideration, and, therefore, he should be inclined to vote for delay. The House, by this address, would, he thought, be in some measure pledged to reciprocal services; and this was a question of such magnitude, that some time ought to be allowed to consider it properly. He thought it highly dangerous to draw troops from Ireland at the present moment, as that country was in greater danger than this country was. He was of opinion, that nothing could be gained by hurrying the measure, as the bill could only be read a first time before the recess. He had opposed the sending of our militia to Ireland in I? OS, but he could not help being a little surprised that the right hon. gent, who was so eager for the measure then, should now oppose one which was founded on the same same principle. It would certainly, however, be necessary to give forces of some sort in place of these 10,000 men, and he saw no description of force that could so well answer the purpose, as those very men that were to be taken away. He would therefore vote for the amendment.
Mr. Windham
explained, by observing that he had never been very eager on the subject, and if he had, it would not have been inconsistent with his present conduct, as the times were materially different.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
opposed the amendment; and in answer to what had fallen from a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), in asserting that he was not an eager and warm supporter of the measure in the last war, for enabling his Majesty to accept the offers of several regiments of the Eritish militia to serve in Ireland; and
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Mr. Windham
again explained, by observing that the reason was not now so powerful for accepting the services of the Irish militia as it was formerly for sending the English militia to Ireland.
Sir John Newport
expressed his exultation that the loyalty and affection of the great body of the people of Ireland stood vindicated in the estimation of his Majesty's ministers. Such was what he inferred from the declarations of one of them, and in which sentiment he trusted they all agreed; the loyal and patriotic offers of the militia, who he believed to a man would cheerfully volunteer their services, was a striking proof, to a very great extent, of the truth with which he wished to impress the House. The charge of disaffection against the great bulk of the Irish people, was most groundlessly made. He trusted they would all in the hour of danger, whatever may be the differences in their religious tenets, stand forth and defend the crown and constitution of the united realm against all attacks whatever. There were certainly some few among the very lowest orders of the people, who, bound by no ties, or influenced by no just principle, were prone to wish for changes in the govt. in the hopes of being able to gratify their own unruly passions and propensities, and so far may be held as disaffected and such there were in Ireland in common with other countries; but with
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Colonel Calcraft
begged leave to offer a few observations upon the subject before the House. If he understood the nature of the case rightly, there was no necessity whatever for the hasty decision passed by his Majesty's ministers. He was informed by an officer of great respectability, that the Irish govt. had offers of service from some of the militia regiments so long since as 4 months: if this was the fact, the consideration of the subject surely would admit a suspension of half a dozen days, to allow parliament time to deliberate on the principle of so great importance as that involved in the address. He defended his right hon. friend, so he hoped he might call him, from the charge of inconsistency in the opinions delivered by him. The state of Ireland at the time alluded to should be considered. A rebellion raged in the heart of the country, and we could spare no other force to resist or to suppress it then, but our militia: he had some opportunities of knowing the state of the popular mind in Ireland, and he was not quite so sanguine as to the extinction of disaffection therein as some gent, seemed to be; and much still remained to be done, before that spirit was obliterated. There were other objections which he entertained to a hasty decision upon the subject. He recollected on a former occasion, the total want of discipline that prevailed, while the sentiments of the militia corps were ascertaining upon the point of extension of service; and he trusted, he should never again have occasion to go round canvassing his men on such a subject.
Mr. Gronvile
made a few general observations upon the subject in support of the arguments advanced by his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham). He would put it to ministers, whether, if similar offers were made on the part of the militia of England, they were prepared to say, they would not propose measures for carrying such into effect? He expatiated on the importance of the subject, which, it would appear, in the way it seemed to be treated, they were brought to discuss by stealth.
Mr. Archdall
expressed his hope, that neither ministers nor the House would allow a question of such importance as the present to be treated of by stealth. On the contrary, he hoped it would fully and
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Lord De Blaquiere
was proceeding to deliver his sentiments, when he was interrupted by
The Speaker,
who said, he believed the noble Lord had misconceived the nature of the amendment. He then stated the question and the amendment by which it was proposed to leave out the latter part of the address.
Lord De Blaquiere.
then resumed, and observed, he conceived himself at first perfectly in order, as his intention was to express his approbation of the address, as he deemed it highly proper at so critical a period to accept the services which had been tendered with so much loyalty; he was surprised that any hesitation should exist for a moment to accept the proffered services of so large a body of loyal men in arms. With respect to an equal offer of service on the part of the English militia, he well knew the beneficial tendency of such a proceeding. He recollected their signal services to the empire at large while employed in Ireland. To their exertions the salvation of that country was owing. Were it not that the regiments of Lord Buckingham and the Duke of Rutland landed so opportunely as they did, that country would no longer have appertained to Britain. He hoped the English militia would voluntarily come forward and extend their services to Ireland. But reprobated the idea of this being done in the way of stipulation. Was the ardour of either militia clogged in such a way, it would be injurious to both countries, and an insult to one. He thought the militia of Ireland could render the greatest service to the empire at large, when employed out of Ireland, problematical as this may appear. He felt it to be the case. He felt how it must operate, when a father and two or three of his sons were, perhaps, fighting against the rest of his family. He Was aware of the effect of religious preju-
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Lord Folkestone
made a few observations in support of what had fallen front gentlemen on his side of the House. He particularly touched upon the fact alluded to by Mr. Calcraft, that some of the offers of service were made four months ago, which he considered as an argument in favour of postponing the discussion; and be took occasion to deprecate the practice of suffering military bodies to deliberate.—The question was loudly called for, and the gallery was cleared preparatory to a division. No such proceeding, however took place. The address was carried as originally proposed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 29, 1804.
[MINUTES.]—
Mr. Steele
stated at the bar that his Majesty had been waited on with the address of that hon. House, and that his Majesty had been pleased to receive it in the most gracious manner.—Sir J. Newport presented a petition from J. Ogle, Esq. complaining of an undue election and return for the borough of Ilchester. Ordered to be taken into consideration on the 19th of April.—The Secretary at War brought up the bill for empowering his Majesty to accept of the services of such part of the militia of Ireland as may voluntarily offer themselves to serve and to be employed in G. Britain. Read a first time.—Mr. Calcraft moved, that an humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would be most graciously pleased to order, that there be laid before the House a list of the regiments of Irish militia which had volunteered the extension of their services, with the names of the officers, and the dates of their respective offers. Ordered.—The Irish Militia Families Bill was read a third time and passed.—The bill for the Augmentation of the Militia of Ireland to an extent and for a time to be limited, was brought up, and read a first time.
[LOYALTY LOAN.]—
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that there was on the order book a notice of a motion respecting the holders of stock in the Loyalty Loan. He had considered the subject maturely, and no doubt it was a
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[LORD HOOD'S CLAIM.]—
Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of the Committee of supply yesterday, when the compensation was voted to Lord Hood, and the officers and men under his command, for the value of the ships taken at Toulon in the last war.—The report being proposed to be read,
Col. Calcraft
observed, that Lord Hood had applied to the Lords of his Majesty's Privy Council, who seemed to think that his right was established. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, too, had at first spoken of the grant as a matter of right, but, after a little flourish, he thought fit to come round to the liberality of the House. That was certainly a very noble and a generous feeling; but in such times as the present, when the country had such taxes and other burdens upon its shoulders, he did not think that it would be right in members to vote away the money of their constituents upon claims of liberality only. It would not even be justice to themselves, who must in consequence bear a part of the expence, however it might suit gent, who had other advantages besides their fortunes to look to. He then moved, that the report be taken into consideration on Monday se'en-night, in order that there might be a more full attendance, and that members might have an opportunity of considering the subject more minutely.
Sir John Nicholl
asserted that all prizes were the right of the Crown, and not of the public; and the claimants coming with that support, had a just demand upon the public for the amount which was stated in the memorial.
Colonel Wood
observed, that different opinions were out of doors entertained respecting the nature of the service rendered by Lord Hood at Toulon; and it was doubted whether, instead of being rewarded for those ships which he had captured, he ought not to pay for those he had burnt.
Mr. Tyrwhit Jones
expressed his regret, that there should be any opposition to this
1100
Mr. Sheridan
said, he had read the papers relating to this subject with considerable surprise; but, at the same, time, he did not consider this an act which belonged to the character of the present administration, but as one bequeathed to them as a legacy by their predecessors. An hon. gent, had compared the operation of Lord Hood at Toulon to the victories of Aboukir and Copenhagen; but it never appeared to him in that point of view, and he had, on a former occasion, opposed voting thanks to Lord Hood, upon the ground that there was something disgraceful in the transaction. The destruction of the French navy had been said to be "sealed" at that time, and yet he could see that it was "sealed" again at Aboukir in five years afterwards; and again, in two years after that, another "seal" was put upon it at the Helder. As to the French ships destroyed, he believed Sir S. Smith did more in that way than Lord Hood; and he made it a subject of complaint against Lord Hood, upon a former occasion, that he had left a great number of the ships at Toulon undestroyed. The blame of this, however, rested with the commander in chief? but, in this case, what was to become of the distribution? How many of the persons employed upon that occasion were now alive? No previous inquiry had been made upon that subject. If Lord Hood was entitled to the condemnation of the ships, why not make the claim? Upon looking at the paper on the table, he found there were ships marked to the number of 9, which it was stated had never been brought out of Toulon. If they had never been brought out, how they could be valued as having been employed in his Majesty's service, he could not conceive. This was so unconstitutional a manner of granting public money, that he really could not think who it was that could advise such a proceeding, and that, too, for ships which never came into the service of the public.
1101
The Master of the Rolls
said, that in the practice of states, as well as the conduet of individuals, there might be demands which they were bound to comply with, although there was no positive law upon the subject; they were bound to do what they ought not to abstain from doing. If Lord Hood could have proceeded to condemnation in the Court of Admiralty, there was no occasion to come to the House; and surely it would not be contended that the House was never to be liberal, except in those cases where they had no discretion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
admitted, that 8 or 9 vessels were stated to have been brought out of Toulon: but the tact was, that these vessels were manned with British seamen, and carried the British flag; they were employed in our service in the Mediterranean during the summer of 1793, and were finally destroyed by the batteries of the enemy. The whole amount of the value of these did not exceed 7,000l.
Mr. Bankes
supported the grant generally, but was against giving any allowance for the S ships which had been referred to, or indeed for any other part of the estimates which was not fully made out to the satisfaction of the House.
Mr. Johnstone
denied that Lord Hood had it in his power to have taken the French fleet at Toulon, which was got possession of solely by a capitulation with the inhabitants of the town.
Mr. Alexander
contended, that Lord Hood was entitled to the proposed remuneration, both in justice and equity.
Mr. Burroughs
said, he was strongly in favour of the resolution: the proceedings adverted to were part of the system of warfare, and surely, it was not for that reason the noble Admiral should lose the right which attached to him in that capacity. It was clear, in point of law, that the King's prerogative attached to such captures as those under consideration.
Dr. Laurence
argued in support of the amendment. He at first adverted to the magnitude of the sum. He asked, when it was that due reward was not given to those who merited it, in the way in which the noble Admiral did? He was ready to agree as to the King's right of granting, in such a case, by virtue of his prerogative; but the case brought before Parliament, as it was, they should have some
1102
The Attorney General
observed, that in such a case, the King, by his prerogative, might have given the ships, in the first instance, to the captors; but in consequence of the mode of proceeding which it was deemed proper to adopt, the value thereof was proposed to be given. Under the circumstances of this case, it was a matter of indifference, whether the possession was achieved by capture or not, as it was of that nature that was not distributable under the prize act, so that no right vested in the captor.
Dr. Laurence
wished that this grant should be stated in the Journals as proceeding on something peculiar to itself, that it might not be established as a principle.
1103
All the annual Accounts of the Treasury are made up to the
th of Jan.
Branches of Revenue.
Gross Receipt.
Net Produce.
Paid into the Exchequer.
Permanent Taxes
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
Customs
England
*9,689,886
2
7
7,207,570
4
6¼
6,803,820
17
1
Scotland
*729,694
14
4
569,204
18
1½
375,800
0
0
Excise
England
18,193,954
3
11¾
16,930,670
0
4
16,889,373
19
11
Scotland
1,394,323
14
4
1,441,541
13
1¾
1,086,000
0
0
Stamps
England
3,241,791
3
0½
3,144,633
0
2¾
2,997,134
12
6
Scotland
194,275
18
2½
201,942
19
5
180,470
0
0
Land and Assessed Taxes
England
5,560,233
0
8¼
5,685,932
1
7½
5,123,299
8
6¼
Scotland
215,839
14
4½
265,729
17
5½
186,400
0
0
Post Office
England
1,156,556
12
4¼
937,649
19
0¼
797,550
19
10
Scotland
117,321
11
6
137,950
1
0
97,449
0
2
1s. in the
£.
England
47,222
3
7¼
48,654
12
0
45,056
0
0
Scotland
3,860
10
1¾
3,629
8
11
6d. in the
£.
England
51,539
19
0¼
50,516
8
5¼
50,516
2
10¼
Scotland
2,666
10
1¾
2,649
17
1¾
2,642
17
1¾
Hackney Coaches
28,800
10
0
26,457
2
7¼
26,097
13
6
Hawkers and Pendlars
8,345
4
2½
5,622
12
7
5,269
0
0
Total Ordinary Revenues
40,636,311
12
6¼
36,660,354
16
6¾
34,666,887
11
6¼
Small Branches of Hered. Revenue.
Hanaper
2,000
0
0
Alienation Fines
7,125
6
8
11,680
3
10
5,702
5
2
Post Fines
511
6
0½
3,248
12
7¼
Seizures,
79,390
11
1
79,390
11
1
79,390
11
1
Compositions
2
10
0
2
10
n
2
10
0
Proffers
637
0
3
637
0
3
637
0
3
Crown Lands
33,157
11
0¾
48,390
10
1½
966
13
4
Extraordinary Resources.
Pd. on Acct. Interest Loans for Ireland
983,274
0
4
983,274
0
4
983,274
0
4
On Acct. Com. for Issuing Exch. Bills
174,000
0
0
174,000
0
0
174,000
0
0
Interest by Tr. of St. for Redem. of L. Tax
7,000
0
0
7,000
0
0
7,000
0
0
Fees of Regulated Exchequer Offices
30,915
6
0
30,915
6
0
30,915
6
0
Monies paid of the Public
4,539
18
11
4,539
18
11
4,539
18
11
Imprest Money from Accountants
73,369
9
11¾
73,369
9
11¾
73,369
9
11¾
Lottery Net Profit
352,333
6
8
332,507
2
5
332,507
2
5
Aid and Contributions
3,500
0
0
3,500
0
0
3,500
0
0
Arrears under Aid and Contribution Act
14,550
1
0¼
14,550
1
0¼
14,550
1
0¼
Arrears of Income Duty
343,359
14
5¼
414,096
2
8¾
360,971
0
11¼
Property Tax
16,917
13
0
16,917
13
0
16,917
13
0
Total
42,760,895
8
0
38,858,373
18
10¼
36,757,131
3
11½
Loans, including
£.
11,950,000
0
0
11,950,000
0
0
11,950,000
0
0
Grand Total
£
54,710,895
1
0
50,808,373
18
10¼
48,707,131
3
11½
Note.
*Of these Sums, 8,090,055l. 6s. 7½d. were received for Duties Inwards, 382,548l. 14s. ¼d. for Duties Outwards, and 769,614l. 2s. 5d. for Duties Coast-wise.
1104
1105
EXPLANATION OF THE FOREGOING ACCOUNT.
At the end of each year, there are certain sums remaining in the hands of the Collectors and of the Receivers General, which have arisen from the revenues of the year: there are, also, bills, arising from the revenues of die preceding year, which have been transmitted to the Receivers General, but which, as they did not become due in that year, were brought to the account of the subsequent year. These two items constitute what are called the balances, and, together with the gross receipt of thy revenues of the year, form the whole amount of revenue to be expended or otherwise accounted for, within the year. The balances which remained on the 5th Jan. 1803, and which form part of that amount for the year ending on the 5th Jan. 1804, were
£
£
£
The gross receipt is the whole amount of the sums which have been collected, under each branch of the revenue, during the year. That received during the year ending on the 5th of Jan. 1804, amounts to
£
see second column
£
From the joint produce of the balances remaining on the 5th Jan. 1803, and the gross receipts from that time to the 5th Jan. 1804
£
£
£
These sums, deducted from the amount of the balances and gross receipt, leave a net produce of
£
see third column
£
1106
From this net produce,
£
£
£
£
£
£
See fourth column.
All that remains after these expenditures should be paid into the Exchequer, but it generally happens that some portion of the revenues remains in the hands of Collectors, and Receivers, and some in bills which become due at a future period. The balances remaining on the 5th Jan. 1804, were
£
£
£
This general abstract is compiled from accounts presented to the Treasury from the Inspector General of Imports and Imports, Accomptant General of the Excise-Office, Excise-Office of Edinburgh, the Comptroller of Stamps, Office for Taxes, Accountant General of the Post Office, Receivers of the duties on pensions for England and Scotland, Receivers General of the land-tax, Receiver General of his Majesty's household, Hackney Coach Office, Office for licensing hawkers and pedlars, Receiver General of the Alienation Office, Green Wax Office, Auditors of the land revenue for England and Wales, Surveyor General of the Land Office, Exchequer, and the Treasury Chambers.
N. B.—
The reader will keep in view, that all these Annual Accounts of the Treasury are made up to the 5th of Jan.
that is to say, the year
or the year ended
th Jan.
see the
Vol. IV. p.
and
1107
An Account of the Net Produce of the PERMANENT TAXES in Great-Britain,
In the Quarters ended
5th April 1802;
5th July, 1802;
10th Oct. 1802;
5th Jan. 1803;
Duties imposed prior to 1803
4,314,001
15
5¾
6,140,988
14
10
6,357,268
6
10
6,516,329
0
11¾
Duties imposed in
Brought from Consolidated Customs per Act 43 Geo. 111. cap. 68.
Surplus of Duty on Receipts, Ao. 1803, after receiving as above
4,314,001
15
5¾
6,140,988
14
10
6,357,268
6
10
6,516,329
0
11¾
Duty on Sugar
Ann. granted
431,019
3
1½
445,998
3
0
1,262,365
16
3¼
777,625
8
0¾
Duty on Malt
55,826
0
0
135,670
0
0
388,610
0
0
262,724
6
2¾
Duty on Tobacco
109,509
0
0
105,722
0
0
122,924
0
0
104,767
0
0
£.
4,910,365
18
7¼
6,828,378
17
10
8,131,168
3
1¼
7,661,445
15
2¾
War Taxes imposed in
British Spirits
Foreign Spirits
Wines
Goods and Shipping
Malt
Tea
Sweets
Property Tax
An Account of the Number and Nature of his Majesty's SHITS and VESSELS in COMBoats, armed for she Public Service, at the under-mentioned Periods.—Present-
Ships of the Line.
4th Rates.
Frigates.
Periods.
1st Rates.
2d Rates.
3d Rates.
Stationary, but in Readiness to get under weigh when required.
Stationary, but in Readiness to get under weigh when required.
Rates.
100 Guns.
98 Guns.
80 Guns.
74 Guns.
64 Guns.
64 Guns.
Total.
50 Guns.
Total.
5th
6th
Total.
Sloops.
Bombs.
Fire Ships.
Gun Brigs.
Gun Boats.
Dock Yard and Victualling Lighters, Long Boats, Launches, and Flat-Bottomed Boats.
Boats armed with Guns at different Ports on the Coast of England, between Pool and at Frith of Forth.
31ft December 1793
5
10
1
49
18
0
83
7
0
7
69
30
99
42
2
5
0
0
0
0
31ft December 1794
5
13
1
52
18
0
89
9
0
9
84
29
113
48
1
3
13
14
0
0
31ft December 1795
6
15
5
53
23
0
102
18
0
18
99
34
133
6
2
3
14
14
0
0
31ft December 1796
6
14
5
55
28
0
108
14
0
14
106
39
145
85
2
3
14
46
0
0
31ft December 1797
4
14
4
55
28
0
105
15
0
15
107
30
137
87
9
2
55
47
0
0
31ft December 1798
4
13
5
56
23
0
102
13
0
13
103
32
135
99
14
8
56
54
0
0
31ft December 1799
4
13
4
56
23
0
99
12
0
12
111
25
136
103
14
8
56
48
0
0
31ft December 1800
4
13
5
51
20
0
93
12
0
12
112
29
141
103
12
4
56
36
0
0
30th Septem. 1801
4
15
6
62
25
0
112
11
0
11
114
33
147
112
13
8
75
30
0
0
31ft December 1802
0
1
1
28
4
0
34
9
0
9
64
11
75
59
0
0
32
0
0
0
31ft December 1803
5
8
3
49
11
4
30
10
0
10
82
17
99
86
15
2
37
6
373
562
15th March 1804
5
0
2
51
15
4
86
10
2
12
81
19
100
88
18
2
36
6
373
624
1108
1109
In the Year ended
In the Quarters ended
In the Year ended
5th Jan 1803.
15th April, 1803;
5th July, 1803;
10th Oct. 1803;
5th Jan. 1804.
5th Jan. 1804.
23,328,587
18
1½
5,469,386
9
9
7,247,922
18
5½
6,901,789
9
9¾
6,702,775
19
11
26,321,874
17
11¾
62,500
0
0
62,500
0
0
125,000
0
0
14,436
17
8
14,436
17
8
23,321,587
18
1½
5,469,386
9
9
7,147,922
18
5½
6,964,289
9
9¾
6,779,712
17
7
26,441,311
15
7¼
2,917,018
10
5½
620,972
16
11¼
366,173
16
4
603,041
17
3¾
953,715
7
11½
2,543,903
18
6½
842,830
6
2¼
51,722
0
0
289,726
19
11
559,467
0
0
352,676
0
0
1,253,591
19
11
442,912
0
0
119,727
0
0
119,539
0
0
118,920
0
0
93,754
0
0
451,940
0
0
27,531,358
14
9¼
6,261,808
6
8¼
8,023,362
14
8½
8,245,718
7
1½
8,179,858
5
6½
30,710,747
14
0¾
38,335
0
0
66,415
0
0
104,750
0
0
120,505
0
0
117,960
0
0
278,465
0
0
57,886
0
0
82,213
0
0
140,099
0
0
198,640
18
9¾
377,738
11
2
576,379
9
11¾
394
0
0
232,000
0
0
232,394
0
0
215,813
0
0
309,622
0
0
525,435
0
0
132
0
0
100
0
0
232
0
0
16,917
13
0
16,917
13
0
£.
631,705
18
9¾
1,242,966
4
2
1,874,672
2
11¾
MISSION, and of Hired Armed Ships and Vessels, and of all other Ships, Vessels, and ed to the House of Commons.—Dated at the Admiralty Office, April, 1804.
Troop Ships.
Receiving Ships.
Hired.
Rates.
Rates.
Boats armed with Guns at different Ports on the Coast of Ireland.
Guard Ships.
Floating Batteries.
Fire Vessels.
3
4
5
6
Total.
Store Ships.
Cutters and Schooners.
1
2
3
5
6
Total.
Hospital and convalescent Ships.
Prison Ships.
Slop Ships.
Armed Tenders.
Yachts.
Armed Vessels.
Armed Sloops.
Armed Ships.
Gun Barges.
Gun Vessels for the Service of Ireland.
Armed Cutters.
Armed Ships hired by the East-India Company, for the Service of Government.
Grand Total of Ships and Vessels of every Description.
0
0
1
0
0
0
0
0
0
5
19
0
1
2
0
2
5
8
1
2
1
3
20
8
0
0
0
26
0
531
0
0
3
12
0
0
0
0
0
5
18
0
1
2
0
1
4
10
4
2
1
3
6
2
0
0
0
49
0
624
0
0
3
9
0
0
0
0
0
6
17
0
1
2
1
1
5
11
5
2
0
2
4
2
0
0
0
65
0
744
0
0
2
6
0
0
0
0
0
7
19
0
1
2
1
1
5
13
11
2
0
2
4
2
0
0
0
72
0
834
0
0
2
2
0
0
0
0
0
7
18
0
0
3
0
3
6
14
18
2
0
2
4
2
6
0
0
72
0
875
0
0
2
1
7
3
7
0
17
8
17
0
0
4
0
3
7
14
27
2
0
2
4
2
5
0
0
94
0
956
0
0
2
0
7
4
11
2
24
7
21
0
0
3
1
3
7
17
25
2
0
1
4
1
5
0
0
102
0
972
0
0
2
0
7
5
26
8
46
7
19
0
0
3
0
3
6
11
15
3
0
2
4
1
5
0
0
98
0
974
0
0
5
1
7
3
24
9
43
6
19
0
0
2
0
4
6
8
24
7
1
3
4
1
5
19
0
91
0
1,070
0
0
0
0
2
1
9
5
17
7
9
0
0
0
0
0
0
1
0
0
1
4
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
383
114
13
11
0
1
2
5
3
11
10
16
1
0
4
2
2
9
5
10
2
4
4
0
0
0
0
16
47
19
1,770
111
13
11
1
1
2
6
3
12
10
10
1
0
5
4
2
12
5
0
3
3
4
0
0
0
0
40
10
1,874*
* Here is a mistake in the addition of 222, the Amount being 1,652.
1110
1111
Account of the CONSOLIDATED FUND of Great Britain, for the Year ended 5th January, 1804.
INCOME.
CHARGE.
Actual Paymen out of C. Fund in the year ended 5th Jan. 1804.
Future Ann. Charge upon the C. Fund, as it stood on the th. Jan. 1804.
Net Produce of the Custom Duties
£.
3,715,619
9
7¼
Charge oil account of the Public Debt
£.
25,079,791
13
1¼
24,381,762
5
6
Excise
14,297,313
0
0
CIVIL LIST.—His Majesty's Household
893,000
0
0
898,000
0
0
Stamps
3,163,167
14
10
Incidents
5,096,422
16
9
Courts of Justice.—The Judges of England and Wales, in Augmentation of their Salaries
18,014
5
0½
Uncertain.
Surplus of Sugar, Malt, and Tobacco, annually granted
2,205,986
13
3¼
A. Graham, Esq. Inspector of the temporary Places of Confinement of Felons, previous to Transportation, by Act 42 Geo. III cap. 28
350
0
0
Land Tax and Pension Tax brought from the years 1799, 1800, 1801, 1802, and 1803
1,307,941
19
11½
Arrears of Income Duty for 1799, 1800, 1801
357,470
14
3¼
P. Colquhoun, Esq. Rec. of the Thames Police Office
7,325
19
6
Money reserved on Acc. of Nominees, in Tontine, 1789
24,282
13
5¾
W. Baldwin, Esq. Rec. of the 7 Pub. Offices of Police
15,628
2
6
Arrears of
Goods and Shipping, 1798
248,858
12
11¾
H. Moreton Dyer, Esq. C. Justice of Ad. Court in the Island of Bahama
473
8
1
2,000
0
0
Additional Assessed Taxes, 1798
21,450
1
0¼
Land Taxes, prior to 1798
10,434
9
1¼
John Bedford, Esq. C. Justice of Ad. Court in the Island of Barbadoes
473
8
1
2,000
0
0
Malt Duties
4,809
17
1
Henry Holland, Esq. C. Justice of Ad. Court in the Island of Jamaica
473
8
1
2,000
0
0
Voluntary Contributions
3,500
0
0
The Sheriffs of England and Wales
4,000
0
0
4,000
0
0
Keeper of the Hanaper of Chancery
3,000
0
0
3,000
0
0
Monies paid into the Treasury by divers Persons, being small Balances due to the Public
209,455
4
11
THE MINT.—To the Masters of the Mint in Eng. and Scotland
11,550
0
0
15,000
0
0
Imprest Monies
73,369
9
11¾
Receiver of Fees of the Mint
2,308
0
0
Uncertain.
Salaries and Allowances
93,544
13
6
17,950
0
0
the rest uncertain.
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, for Interest, Management, and
£.
913,394
4
9
Parliamentary Pensions
287,645
9
4
285,866
13
4
Bounties for the Growth of Hemp and Flax in Scotland.
2,956
13
8
2,956
13
8
Total Income of Consolidated Fund, applicable towards paying the Charge existing at 5th January, 1803
31,653,635
2
0¼
Total Charge created prior to the 5th Jan. 1803, as the same stood as 5th Jan 1804
26,425,835
3
0¾
25,614,535
12
6
14,436
17
8
Debt incurred in respect of
£.
Reserved out of Consol. Customs, per Act 43 Geo. III. Cap. 68. from 5th July, 1803, at
£
125,000
0
0
Surplus of Duties on Assessed Taxes, per Act 43 Geo. III. Cap. 161. to commence from 5th April, 1804
Annuities on
£.
£.
£.
144,000
0
0
292,000
0
0
Annuities on
£.
£.
£.
28,938
0
0
292,320
0
0
Money paid by Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge, for Interest, Management, and
£.
£.
£.
69,889
15
7
Annuities for 56¾ at 6s. 5d. per Cent. added to Long Consolidated Bank Annuities, with Charges of Management
3,877
5
5
38,933
2
6
Total Income in Year ending 5th Jan. 1804
£.
31,862,961
15
3¼
Annuities at
£.
97,882
12
9½
195,765
5
7
N.B. For this Account of last Year,
see
Total of the actual Payments out of, and future Charge upon, the Consolidated Fund, for the Year ended 5th January, 1804
£.
26,700,533
1
3¼
26,433,874
0
7
1112
1113
An Account of the Sums paid into, and the Charges upon, the CONSOLIDATED FUND, between the 5th January 1803 and the 5th January 1804; distinguishing each Quarter.
INCOME.
In the Quarters ended
In the Year ended 5th January 1804.
5th April 1803.
5th July 1803.
10th Oct. 1803.
5th Jan. 1804.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Permanent Taxes
5,460,298
2
5½
7,222,780
7
9¾
6,957,442
4
10
6,770,185
16
2
26,410,706
11
3¼
Arrears of Sugar, Malt, and Tobacco
769,547
6
2¼
353,026
1
7½
586,902
0
0
496,511
5
5¾
2,205,986
13
3½
Land Taxes
168,554
7
2¼
434,603
10
9¾
211,290
1
11¾
375,726
18
10½
1,190,174
18
10¼
Income Duties, 1799, 1800, and 1801
149,437
18
10½
94,690
13
10¾
69,369
6
3
43,972
15
3
357,470
14
3¼
Imprest Monies
37,855
12
11¼
24,368
19
7
143,031
9
11½
77,568
12
5
282,824
14
10¾
Arrears of
Add. Ass. Taxes
11,682
12
8½
1,817
14
6¼
7,949
13
9½
21,450
1
0¼
Goods and Ship. 1798
1,842
18
7½
247,015
14
4¼
248,858
12
11¾
Voluntary Contrib
3,500
0
0
3,500
0
0
Land Taxes on Pensions and Personal Estates
28,367
13
6¼
40,073
19
11¼
23,984
4
2
25,341
3
5¾
117,767
1
1¼
Money paid on Account of the Gov. of Ireland
168,465
0
10
288,248
5
10
204,205
11
7
322,355
2
1
983,274
0
4
Money reserved for Treasury Nominees in Tontine Anno 1789
12,187
6
7
12,095
6
10¾
24,282
13
5¾
Canal and Dock Duties
1,421
7
7
1,421
7
7
Arrears of Land ant Malt Taxes, prior to the Year 1798
186
14
9
2,456
8
2¼
12,601
0
3
15,244
6
2¼
£
6,796,238
8
1
8,724,769
3
1¾
8,218,197
3
4¾
8,123,757
0
7¾
31,862,961
15
3¼
CHARGE.
In the Quarters ended
In the Year ended 5th January 1804.
5th April 1803.
5th July 1803.
10th Oct. 1803.
5th Jan. 1804.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Annual Charge for Interest, &c. of Public Debt, created prior to 5th January 1803
5,444,675
1
9½
7,212,580
17
8¾
5,225,795
2
6
7,196,740
11
11
25,079,791
13
1¼
Annual Charge for Interest, &c. of Public Debt, created prior to 5th January in 1803
81,756
11
9¾
192,941
6
4¾
274,697
18
2½
Civil List
224,500
0
0
224,500
0
0
224,500
0
0
224,500
0
0
898,000
0
O
Pensions, Salaries, and Allowances
78,790
7
4
80,388
9
4
93,674
7
7
80,636
16
4
333,490
0
7
Incidental Charges
10,940
8
6½
24,720
4
8
53,881
6
8
25,011
9
6
114,553
9
4½
£.
5,758,905
17
8
7,542,189
11
8¼
5,679,607
8
6¾
7,719,830
3
3¾
26,700,533
1
3¼
Total Income ending 5th January, 1804
31,862,961
15
3¼
Deduct Total Charge
26,700,533
1
3¼
SURPLUS of Consolidated Fund in the Year 1803, that is the Year ended on the 5th January 1804
5,162,428
14
0
1114
1115
An Account of the Quantity in Yards and Official Value (in Irish Currency) of LINEN Exported from IRELAND in the Years 1800, 1801, 1802, and 1803; specifying the Places to which the same were Exported; and distinguishing the Quantity and Value on which Bounty was paid.—Dated Dublin, March 21, 1804.—Signed R. Marshall, Inspector General.
1800.
1801.
1802.
1803.
Quantity Exported to Great Britain
38,270,671
34,622,829
33,246,943
35,097,936
British Colonies in America and the West indies
829,206
671,140
885,956
486,020
United States of America
1,290,405
2,518,252
1,083,623
3,870,028
All other Parts
165,568
97,709
395,488
115,870
Total Quantity of Linen exported
40,555,850
37,909,930
35,612,010
37,569,854
Quantity exported on which Bounty was paid
1,282,869
2,231,398
1,418,237
2,058,203
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Total value of Linen exported
2,707,042
13
6
2,528,519
2
2
2,375,141
6
6
2,505,802
13
6
Value of Linen on which Bounty was paid
86,431
5
4
148,764
18
10
95,152
7
0
138,936
7
10
An Account of the Number of SEAMEN and MARINES in his Majesty's Service; (so far as the same can be made up from the Returns in the Navy Office, and from the Returns received at the Admiralty from the Commanding Officers of the Divisions of Marines, and the Officers employed in raising Men;) on the 31st Dec. 1793, 15th March, 1794, and 15th March, 1804.—Presented to the House of Commons, 5th April, 1804.—Dated the Admiralty-office.
Periods.
Seamen, as per report received this Day from the Navy Office.
Marines actually in Pay, as per Returns from, the several Divisions transmitted Weekly to the Admiralty Office.
Borne for Wages.
Mustered for Victuals.
31st December, 1793
69,749
69,416
7,060
15th March, 1794
73,835
73,306
7,908
By the Muster Books received in the Navy Office, up to the 30th Nov. 1803
77,405
77,668
15,663
Raised at the several Rendezvous in England and Ireland, between 1st Dec. 1803, and 15th March, 1804, as by Returns made to the Admiralty
6,763
6,763
Total on 15th March, 1804
84,168
84,431
N.B. The Cause of the Numbers Borne exceeding the Mustered, in 1793 and 1794, arises from those who were on Shore on Duty at Toulon and in Hospitals; and the Reason why the Account now exceeds that made up to the 31rst of Dec. 1803 is, that Muster Books have since been received, to a later Period, which enabled the Navy Board to make it more correct.
1116
1117
An Account of all CORN, GRAIN, MEAL, MALT, and FLOUR, Imported into and Exported from IRELAND, in the Years 1799, 1800, 1801, 1802, 1803.—Dated Dublin, March 21, 1804.—Signed R. Marshall, inspector General.
Years ending.
25th Mar 1799.
25th Mar. 1800.
From 25th Mar. 1800, to 5th Jan. 1801.
5th Jan. 1802.
5th Jan. 1803.
5th Jan. 1804.
Imported.
Corn.
Barley and Malt
Barrels
3,237
44,898
287
111
39
10,543
Beans and Peas
Barrels
1,299
1,407
557
2,058
2,214
2,561
Oats
Barrels
40
816
946
395
1,904
Wheat
Barrels
85
18,588
43,329
18,505
8,551
5,374
Meal.
Flour
Cwts.
360
42,771
41,143
1,424
13,404
Oats
Cwts.
14
6
Wheat
Cwts.
10
24,496
170,772
38
Exported.
Corn.
Barley
Barrels
48,963
12,676
32,867
Beans
Barrels
5,197
2,747
2,349
Malt
Barrels
3,175
50
Oats
Barrels
594,972
157,938
200
475,066
391,102
Peas
Barrels
2
4
4
2
366
1,064
Rye
Barrels
391
1,121
Wheat
Barrels
46,325
345
168,937
101,901
Meal.
Flour
Cuts.
5,602
261
159
203
91,623
43,143
Groat
Cwts.
7
1,248
4
1,636
Oat
Cwts.
93,148
27,066
949
1,276
108,189
76,619
Wheat
Cwts.
84
A List of the Regiments and Companies of the IRISH MILITIA, which have made a Voluntary Tender of their Services, to be employed in any Part of Great-Britain, during the War.—Presented to the House of Commons.—Dated April 6, 1804.—Signed J. King.
Date of Offer.
Regiments of Militia.
Strength.
Officers.
Non-Com. Officers.
Rank and File.
1ft August, 1803
Wexford
28
58
545
25th August
Kerry
23
51
543
19th September
North Mayo Battalion, except four or the Privates
21
47
487
11th October
The 5 Batt. Companies and Lt. Comp. of the Leitrim Regt., except 15 Men
19
38
403
16th October
South Mayo, with the exception of Lieutenant Denis Browne
20
43
472
23d October
Light Comp.
Monaghan
3
6
69
Armagh
3
6
68
South Cork
3
6
65
Derry
3
8
85
Carlow
3
6
51
Limerick County
2
4
64
14th November
Five Companies of the Wicklow
16
43
350
28th November
Londonderry
25
57
619
11th December
Tipperary
28
61
689
21ft December
Seven Companies of the Monaghan
26
46
485
30th December
Antrim
21
51
554
30th December
Royal Meath
22
49
509
Total
266
571
6,058
1118
1119
Account of the PUBLIC EXPENDITURE of Great-Britain for the Year ending on the 5th of January, 1804.
I.
Interest & Charges on the Permanent Debt, redeemed & unredeemed (App. A)
24,264,424
18
11½
II.
Interest on Excheeq. Bills (B.)
801,787
10
5½
III.
Civil List (C.)
898,000
—
—
IV.
Other Charges on the Consolidated Fund, viz.
Courts of Justice
50,038
11
3½
Mint
13,858
11
2
Allow. to Roy. Fam.
287,645
—
4
Salaries and Allows
93,544
13
6
Bounties
2,956
13
8
1,346,043
9
11½
V.
Civil Govt, of Scotland (D.)
79,502
12
—
VI.
Other Payments in Anticipation (E.) Bounties for Fisheries, Manufactures, Corn. &c.
305,379
19
2¼
Pensions on the Hereditary Rev.
27,700
—
—
Militia and Deserters Warrants, &c.
108,405
1
8½
441,485
—
10¾
VII.
Navy; (F.)—Salaries to the Offices For Wages, Bounty, Flag Pay, &c.
56,000
—
—
2,113,506
12
10
For Dock Yards, Building of Ships, &c.
2,181,396
7
1¼
For Marine Service on shore
287,000
—
—
4,638,902
19
11¼
The Victualling Department
2,489,919
15
9
The Sick and Wounded Department
142,000
—
—
The Transport and Wounded Department
For Transports
639,045
12
5
For Prisoners of War, in Health
30,000
—
—
Miscellaneous Services
40,000
—
—
709,045
12
5
7,979,878
8
1¼
VIII.
Ordnance (G.)
1,827,049
12
7¾
IX.
Army.—Ordinary Services, (H.)
For Regul. Fenc. Milit. Inval. and Volun. Corps
6,275,522
5
2
Barracks
1,021,269
2
—
Staff off. and Off. of Garrisons
108,976
17
6
Half Pay
263,203
—
8
Widows' Pensions
24,000
—
—
Chelsea Hospital
324,860
7
5
Exchequer Fees
53,404
2
5
Pay of Public Offices
63,079
2
6
8,134,314
17
8
Extraordinary Services
3,165,092
—
3
11,299,406
17
11
X.
Loans, Remittances, (I) Ireland
2,117,444
8
11
XI.
Miscellaneous Services: (K.)
At Home
2,555,859
—
9
Abroad
244,641
—
1¼
2,800,500
—
10¼
52,957,523
—
8½
Deduct Loan for Ireland
2,117,444
8
11
*
£.
50,840,078
11
9½
* The Sum of
£.
s.
d.
N. B. The Several Items under each Head are stated in the
Appendix
1120
1121
APPENDIX (A. I)—An Account of the Monies paid out of the Receipt of His Majesty's Exchequer, in the Year ending the 5th January, 1804, towards satisfying the Charges of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEIST of Great-Britain, Ireland, and Imperial Loans; distinguishing the Total Amount of the Sums applied for Interest, Charges of Management, Sums applicable to its Reduction, and the usual Grants for the same Purpose.
INTEREST.
Annuities for Lives and Terms of Years.
Charges of Management.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Permanent Debt of Great-Britain, unredeemed
15,054,257
14
10½
1,561,601
8
10½
230,077
3
4
Loans raised for Ireland
650,390
4
1
13,000
0
0
11,647
5
5
Imperial Loans
213,695
9
2
230,000
0
0
5,814
2
3¾
15,924,343
8
1½
1,804,601
8
10½
247,538
11
—¾
1,804,601
8
10½
247,538
11
0¾
Towards the Reduction of the Public Debt:
17,976,483
8
0¾
£.
s.
d.
Annual Issue by 26 Geo. III.
1,000,000
0
0
Annual Issue by 42 Geo. III.
200,000
0
0
Annuities for Terms of Years expired, prior to 5th July, 1802
79,880
14
6
Annuities for Lives, on which the Nominees are certified to have died prior to 5th July, 1802, or that have been unclaimed for 3 Years
49,151
0
7
Interest on Debt of Gt.-Britain redeemed
2,138,183
12
3
Interest on Debt of Gt.-Ireland redeemed
36,872
5
11
Interest on Debt of Gt.-Imperial redeemed
11,383
10
10
3,515 471
4
1
Annuity at
£.
2,772,469
16
9¾
6,287,941
0
10¾
£.
24,264,424
8
11
APPENDIX (A. 2.)—An Account of the Total Amount of the Sums actually received by the COMMISSIONERS for the Reduction of the NATIONAL DEST, in the Year ending the 5th Jan. 1804.
GREAT BRITAIN.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Annual Issue, by 26 Geo. III.
1,000,000
0
0
Annual Issue, by 42 Geo. III.
200,000
0
0
99 and 96 Annuities
54,880
14
6
Expired and unclaimed Ann.
49,151
0
7
Short Ann. 1777
25,000
0
0
Dividends on
£
2,033,487
12
3
Dividends on
£
104,696
0
0
£
2,502,887
10
9
5,970,102
18
1
IRELAND.
£
232,889
6
0½
Dividends on
£
36,872
5
11
269,761
11
11¾
IMPERIAL.
£
36,693
0
0
Dividends on Imperial
£
11,383
10
10
48,076
10
10
Office Reduction National Debt, 16th Feb. 1804.
£.
6,287,941
0
10¾
G. T. GOODENOUGH, Sec.
1122
1123
APPENDIX (B.)—An Account of the Interest paid on EXCHEQUER BILLS, from 5th January 1803 to 5th January 1804.
£.
s.
d.
41 Geo. III. Cap. 4.
Aids
Anno 1801
213,130
12
9½
43 Geo. III. Cap. 41.
Aids
Anno 1802
102,905
9
0
42 Geo. III. Cap. 110.
Supply
Anno 1802
225,557
17
3
42 Geo. III. Cap. 111.
Supply
Anno Bank
74,527
7
11
43 Geo. III. Cap. 5.
Aids
Anno 1803
92,755
19
0
Paid Governor and Comp. of Bank of England, on Personal Estates, &c. and Malt Tax
92,910
4
6
Exchequer-Bill Office, 31st Jan. 1804.
£.
10
5½
J. PLANTA.—JOHN PETER.
APPENDIX (C.)—An Account of the Charges upon the CONSOLIDATED FUND, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804; exclusive of the Interest of the Public Debt, and of the Payments upon Exchequer Bills, distinguishing the same under the several Heads of Civil List, Courts of Justice, &c., Mint, other Salaries and Allowances, and Bounties.
CIVIL LIST.
£.
s.
d.
For Support of his Majesty's Household
898,000
—
—½
COURTS OF JUSTICE.
Judges of England and Wales, in Augmentation of then Salaries
18,014
5
—½
A. Graham, Esq. Inspector of temporary Places of Confinement of Felons, previous to Transportation, by Ace 42 Geo. III. cap. 28.
350
—
—
P. Colquhon, Esq. Receiver of Thames Police Office
7,625
19
6
W. Baldwin, Erq. Receiver of Seven Public Offices of Police
15,628
2
6
H. Moreton Dyer, Esq. Chief Justice of Admiralty Court, in the Island of Bahama, per Act 43 Geo. III.
473
8
1
J. Bedford, Esq. Chief Justice of Admiralty Court, in the Island of Barbadoes
473
8
1
H. Holland, Esq. Chief Justice of Admiralty Court, in the Island of Jamaica
473
8
1
Sheriffs of England and Wales
4,000
—
—
Keeper of the Hanaper in Chancery
3,000
—
—
MINT.
Master of his Majesty's Mint in England
10,350
—
—
T. Morrison, Esq. Receiver of Fees and Emoluments in the Office of the Mint, in the Tower of London, by Act 39 Geo. III.
2,308
11
2
Master of his Majesty's Mint in Scotland
1,200
—
—
SALARIES AND ALLOWANCES.
Rt. Hon. C. Abbot, Speaker of House of Commons, to complete his Allowance of 6,000l. per Ann.
1,524
16
—
Lord Bute, late one of the Auditor of Imprest
7,000
—
—
P. Deare, Esq. late a Deputy of Imprest
300
—
—
E. Roberts, Esq. on yearly Sum of 650l. formerly paid to Auditor of Exchequer
650
—
—
J. Thomas Bart, Esq. Commis. for Auditing Public Accounts
1,000
—
—
J. Martin Leake, Esq. Commis. for Auditing Public Accounts
500
—
—
J. Erskine, Esq. Commis. for Auditing Public Accounts
500
—
—
Hon. Bartholom. Bonverie Esq. Commis. for Auditing Public Accounts
1,000
—
—
Sir J. C. Boughton, Bart. Esq. Commis. for Auditing Public Accounts
1,000
—
—
Salaries in Office of Clerks of Public Accounts
6,000
—
—
G. Atwood, Esq. Inspector of Certicates in Tontine Anno 1789
750
—
—
Chief Cashier of Bank of England, for Fees paid at sundry Public Offices
819
17
6
1124
£.
s.
d.
T. Marsham, Esq. Sec. to Commissioners for issuing Excheq. Bills, by Act 35 Geo. III.
500
—
—
R. Clarke, Esq. Chamberlain of City of Loudon, for better Improvement of Port of London
55,000
—
—
J. Wyatt, Esq. towards erecting a Lazaretto on Chutney Hill, in County of Kent
15,000
—
—
J. Williams, Esq. Sec. to Commissioners for enquiring into Abuses in Naval Department
2,000
—
—
PENSIONS.
H. R. Highness the Pr. of Wales
65,000
—
—
H. R. Highness the Pr. of Wales
60,000
—
—
H. R. Highness the Duke of York
14,000
—
—
H. R. Highness the Clarence
12,000
—
—
H. R. Highness the Kent
12,000
—
—
H. R. Highness the Cumberland
12,000
—
—
H. R. Highness the Sussex
12,000
—
—
H. R. Highness the Cambridge
12,000
—
—
H. R. Highness the Gloucester
8,000
—
—
H. R. Highness the Gloucester
9,000
—
—
Her R. Highness the Duchess of York
4,000
—
—
Earl or Chatham
4,000
—
—
Lord Rodney
2,000
—
—
Lord Heathfield
1,500
—
—
Lady Dorchester
1,000
—
—
John Penn, Esq.
3,000
—
—
R chard Penn, Esq.
1,000
—
—
Lord St. Vincent
2,000
—
—
Lord Duncan
2,000
—
—
Lord Nelson
2,000
—
—
Lord Hutchinson
2,000
—
—
Lady Abercrombie
2,000
—
—
Sir Will. Hen. Ashurst
2,000
—
—
Lord Rosslyn
4,000
—
—
Sir Sidney Smith
1,000
—
—
Duke of Richmond
12,666
13
4
Sir John Skyaner
500
—
—
Representatives of Arthur Onslow
3,000
—
—
Sir James Saumarez, K. B.
2,978
7
—
Duke of Portland, for the Prince of Orange
16,000
—
—
Lord Bo ingdon and others, in trust for Lord Amherst
3,000
—
—
BOUNTIES.
For the Encouragement of Growth of Hemp and Flax in Scotland
2,956
13
8
£.
1,346,043
9
11½
Exchequer, 14th March, 1804. JAMES FISHER.
1125
APPENDIX (B.)—Total Amount of such Sum and Sums of Money as are incurred and become due upon his Majesty's Establishment for CIVIL AFFAIRS within SCOTLAND, bearing Date the 19th June 1761 fur One Year, from 5th Jan. 1803 inclusive, to 5th Jan. 1804 exclusive: Made up by the Batons of Exchequer at Edinburgh, pursuant to Act, 42 Geo. III. Cap. 70, intituled, "An Act for directing certain Public Accounts to be laid annually before Parliament, and for discontinuing certain other Forms of Accounts now in Use."
£.
s.
d.
APPENDIX (E. 1.)—An Account of the Amount of BOUNTIES paid in England and Scotland, out of the Revenues of Customs and Excise, between the 5th Jan. 1803 and the 5th Jan. 1804; being Payments in the Nature of Anticipations of Exchequer Issues.
England.
Scotland.
CUSTOMS:
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Bounties on Corn, Cotton, and Linen Manufactures, British and Southern Whale Fishery, Newfoundland and White Herring Fishery; Slave Bounty; and Bounty for Encouragement of Volunteer Seamen
203,535
18
4
58,016
5
3¼
EXCISE:
Bounties on Beer exported
40
12
6
—
—
—
Bounties on British Spirits
9,950
18
—
—
—
—
Bounties on Fish Exported
8,856
8
1½
2,802
17
4
Buss and Barrel Bounties, certified on the Excise, for Deficiency of Money in Hands of Receiver Gen. of Customs
—
—
—
29,176
19
7½
£.
215,383
16
11½
89,996
2
2¾
Great Britain
£.
s.
APPENDIX (E. 2.)—GENERAL POST OFFICE.—An Account of PENSIONS and Parliamentary GRANTS, paid out of the Revenue of the General Post Office, for the Year ending 5 Jan. 1804.
His Grace the Duke of Marlborough
£.
His Grace the Duke of Grafton
4,700
The Heirs of the late Duke of Schomberg
4,000
£.
March 22d 1804.
THO
s
APPENDIX (E. 3.) EXCISE.—An Account, shewing how the PUBLIC MONIES remaining in the Receipt of the Exchequer on 5th Jan. 1803, together with the Monies paid into the same during the Year ending 5th Jan. 180
PENSIONS; Viz.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Duke of Grafton
9,000
—
—
Earl Cowper
2,000
—
—
Charles Boon, Esq. a Moiety of the Earl of Bath's
1,500
—
—
Lord Melbourne, a Moiety of the Earl of Bath's
1,500
—
—
14,000
—
—
BOUNTIES; Viz.
Beer exported
40
12
6
British Spirits
2,950
18
—
Salted Provisions
8,856
8
1½
11,847
18
7½
£.
25,847
18
7½
Excise Office, London, 22d March, 1804.
J. KEMP, Accompt. General.
1126
1127
APPENDIX (E. 4.)—An Account of Sums paid by Receivers General of Land Tax to the MILITIA, and for Deserters' Warrants; and for Bounties on Hemp and Flax, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804.
Militia
£.
1
8½
Deserters' Warrants
1,369
—
—
Hemp and Flax
—
Nil.
—
£.
1
8½
Office for Taxes, 22d March, 1804.
APPENDIX (P.)—MAvy OFFICE, 23d March, 1804. An Account, shewing the Amount of Monies received from His Majesty's Exchequer for NAVAL SERVICES, between 5th January, 1803, and 5th Jan. 1804; distinguishing the Services 10 which the same has been applied.
NAVY:
£.
s.
d.
Salaries to Admiralty, Navy, and Navy Pay Offices
56,000
—
—
Wages to Officers and Seamen
1,468,000
—
—
Bounty to Volunteers, Flag Pay, &c.
255,000
—
—
Half Pay to Sea Officers and Bounty to Chaplains
313,436
16
—
Pensions to Sea Officers, their Widows, &c. and to superannuated Artificers
77,069
16
10
Wages to his Majesty's Dock and Rope Yards
714,709
—
—
Building of Ships, Purchase of Stores of every Description, repairing Ships, Purchase of Ships taken from the Enemy, Head Money, &c. paid in Bills at 90 Days' Date
1,124,687
7
1¼
Pilotage
17,000
—
—
Bills of Exchange, Impress, and Contingencies
300,000
—
—
Exchequer Fees
6,000
—
—
Marine Service on Shore, and Half Pay to Marines
287,000
—
—
VICTUALLING:
Provisions, and all Sorts of Victualling Stores, paid for in Bills at 90 Days' Date
1,860,794
10
6
Provisions, &c. paid for in Ready Money
19,000
—
—
Bills of Exchange, and Impress
466,000
—
—
Necessary, and Extra Necessary Money and Contingencies
50,000
—
—
Wages to Officers, Workmen, &c. at the several Ports
88,012
—
—
Widows' Pensions
6,123
5
3
SICK AND WOUNDED:
Subsistence, Medicine, Bedding, &c. for Sick Seamen
136,000
—
—
Subsistence, Medicine, Bedding, &c. for Prisoners of War
6,000
—
—
TRANSPORTS:
Freight of Transports, and for Stores, Subsistence, &c. for Prisoners of War in Health, paid for in Bills at 90 Days' Date
639,045
12
5
Bills of Exchange, &c.
40,000
—
—
Subsistence, Cloathing, &c. of Prisoners of War in Health, paid for in Ready Money
30,000
—
—
£.
8
1¼
W. PALMER.—S. GAMBIER.—F. J. HARIWELL.
APPENDIX (G.)—An Account of Monies paid by the Office of ORDNANCE, in the Year 1803, for Services at Home and Abroad respectively.
£.
s.
d.
Services at Home
1,671,294
15
—¾
Services Abroad
155,754
17
7
£.
12
7¾
Office, of Ordnance, 28th Feb. 1804.
A. ROSS.—W. W. POLE.—C. ASHLEY.
1128
1129
APPENDIX (H.)—An Account of Monies paid by the Right Hon. Paymaster Gen. of his Majesty's FORCES, from 25th Dec. 1802 to the 24th Dec. 1803.
£.
s.
d.
Pay and Allowances of Forces, &c. Captains Allowances, Off-reckonings, Recruiting Contingencies, Bills, and Cloathing
6,275,522
5
2
Exchequer Fees
53,404
2
5
Garrisons
29,980
14
7
Pay of Offices
63,079
2
6
Staff
78,996
2
11
Barracks
1,021,269
2
—
Half Pay
263,203
—
8
Widows' Pensions
24,000
—
—
Chelsea Hospital
324,860
7
5
Extraordinaries
3,165,092
—
3
£.
617
11
Pay Office, Horse Guards, 23d March, 1804.
DD. THOMAS.
APPENDIX.(I.)—An Account of LOANS, REMITTANCES, and ADVANCES, to other Countries, in the Year ending 5th Jan. 1804; specifying the Total Amount paid to them respectively.
There was remitted, out of Supplies 1803, to that Part of the United Kingdom, called Ireland, viz.
£.
s.
d.
Out of Loan 1803, per Act 43 Geo. III. Cap. 67. Sect. 19.
2,000,000
0
0
Out of Lotteries 1803, per Act 43 Gee. III. Cap. 91. Sect. 3
117,444
8
11
£.
8
11
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, 24th March, 1804.
N. VANSITTART.
APPENDIX (K.)—An Account, shewing how the Monies remaining in the Receipt of the EXCHEQUER. on the 5th Day of January 1803, together with the Monies paid into the same during the Year ending the 5th Day of January 1804, have been actually applied; as far as relates to MISCELLANEOUS SERVICES; specifying the Amount of Monies paid for Services at Home and Abroad respectively.
SERVICES AT HOME.
£.
s.
d.
To enable his Majesty to make good the Sums which may be awarded under the 7th Article of the Treaty with America, to be paid by the British Government
60,000
—
—
Expenses incurred, and to be incurred, on account of certain Premises at Chelsea, intended for a Royal Military Asylum for Reception of Soldiers Children, for 1802 and 1803
32,400
—
—
Bounties for taking and bringing Fish to Cities of London and Westminster, and other Places of the U. Kingdom
3,000
—
—
Expenses of confining and maintaining Convicts, for 1802 and 1803
40,864
1
7¾
Charge of Royal Military College, for 1832 and 1803
11,354
2
11
Clerk employed on Business relative to American Claims
239
13
6
Secretary of Commisrs. for reducing National Debt, for Salaries to Officers, and incidental Expenses of said Commission, for Half Year, to 5th July 1803
1,919
10
—
Relief of suffering Clergy and Laity of France, Toulonese
1130
£.
s.
d.
and Corsican Emigrants, certain St. Domingo Sufferers and American Loyalists, for 1803
154,023
4
7
Charge of Works and Repairs of Military Roads and Bridges in N. Britain, for 1803
5,000
—
—
Expenses incurred in printing the 56th Volume of Journals of House of Commons, with the Indexes thereto
4,500
13
2½
Works done at Auditor's Office, Pipe Office, and Record Office, Somerset Place
8,771
7
8½
Works done at the House of Speaker of House of Commons, to 31st May 1803
21,434
—
—
Military Roads and Bridges in Highlands of Scotland
10,000
—
—
Extraordinary Expenses for Prosecutions, relating to the Coin of this Kingdom 1802
2,661
17
8
Superintendence of Aliens, for 1802 and 1803
5,620
—
—
Part of
£.
10,778
10
—
Making an Inland Navigation, from the Eastern to the Western Sea, by Inverness and Fort William
10,000
—
—
Printing Journals of House of
1131
£.
s.
d.
Commons, and printing and delivering Votes, &c. during present Session
15,000
—
—
Expenses incurred by Soane, Esq. and to reward him for Trouble in making Designs, Elevations, and Estimates, for Alterations proposed to be done in 1794 ant 1795, to be made to the House of Lords, and Rooms and Offices adjoining
1,000
—
—
His Majesty, for the Board of Agriculture, for the Service of 1803
3,000
—
—
His Majesty, toward enabling Trustees of British Museum to carry on Execution of Trusts reposed in them by Parliament
3,000
—
—
To make good to Consolidated Fund the like Sum, paid out of Revenues of Customs for Bounties on Corn and Grain imported into Great-Britain to 10th Oct. 1802
524,573
19
7
To enable his Majesty to repay to the United Company of Merchants of England, trading to the East-Indies, on Account of Expenses incurred by them in Public Service, during the late war
1,000,000
—
—
Compensation to Mr. Dubois, for Losses sustained as an American Loyalist
5,320
—
—
Deficiency of Grants, for Service of 1802
166,531
10
—
Officers of Exchequer for extra Trouble in making out Exchequer Bills, in 1803
500
—
—
Officers of Exchequer for extra Trouble in paying off Exchequer Bills, in 1802 and 1803
720
—
—
Bank of England, for receiving Contributions for Lotteries 1802
3,000
—
—
Bank of England, for Discount on Prompt Payments thereon
1,541
14
11
Payment of Principal and Interest of American Orders, made out pursuant to Acts of the 28th. and 30th Years of his present Majesty, for granting Relief to such Persons as have suffered in their Rights and Properties, during the late unhappy Dissensions in America
597
13
2¾
Incidental Expenses attending Lottery 1802
3,600
—
—
Commissioners for preparing drawing Lottery 1802
6,300
—
—
Additional Rewards to said Commissioners
1,700
—
—
Certificate Commissioners for Lotteries 1802
1,600
—
—
J. Gray, Esq; for Lottery Incidents 1803
2,900
—
—
J. Hay, Esq. Salaries and Expenses, &c. of American Commissioners
1,600
—
—
Expenses under Commission, pursuant to 6th and 7th Articles of American Treaty
340,000
—
—
C. Martin, Esq. of Lincoln's
1132
£.
s.
d.
Inn, for Losses sustained as an American Loyalist
12,626
14
—
To replace to his Majesty's Civil List Revenues the Sums issued thereout, pursuant to Addresses of the House of Commons viz.
J. Flaxman, Esq. the 2d Payment for erecting a Monument in Westminster Abbey, to Memory of Capt. J. Montague
1,296
14
—
J. Topham, Esq. Sec. to Commisrs appointed to carry into execution Measures recommended by House of Commons respecting Public Records of the Kingdom, to be paid to sundry Persons employed by said Commissioners
4,476
19
6
H. Alexander, Esq. for attendance as Chairman or Committees of House of Commons in Session 1801–2
1,301
9
—
J. Clementson, Esq. to make Allowance equal to
£
332
4
—
S. Dunn, Esq. towards Expense of compiling General Index to Journals of House of Commons
300
—
—
G. Whittam, Esq. for making Index to Votes of House of Commons for Sessions 1801–2, and for printing the same
80
—
—
H. Gunuell, Esq. to be paid over as Compensations to several Officers of House of Commons, for Attendance on Public Committeees in Session 1801–2
647
—
—
Dr. J. Carmichael Smyth, in consideration of merit of his Discovery of Nitric Fumigation to prevent the Communication of Contagion
5,258
17
—
G. Brown, for Expenses attending Survey of intended Military Roads in N. Britain, in 1799
717
14
—
J. Bull, Esq. for making Index to Votes of House of Commons for Session 1801–2, and for printing the same
320
—
—
J. H. Ley, Esq. as 2d Clerk Assistant of House of Commons for Services in Session 1801–2
534
15
—
J. Dyson, Esq. to make good Deficiency of Allowance as Clerk Assistant of House of Commons, in Session 1801–2
429
3
—
T. Banks, Esq. the last instalment under Contract for erecting a Monument to Capt. Burges
1,848
12
—
T. Banks, Esq. first Instalment under Contract, for erecting a Monument in St. Paul's Cathedral, to Memory of Captain George Blagdon Westcott
1,480
18
—
C. Rossi, Statuary, first instalment under Contract, for
1133
£.
s.
d.
erecting a Monument in St. Paul's Cathedral, to Memory of Capt J. R. Mosse, and Capt Rion
1,480
18
—
J. Flaxman, Statuary, first Instalment under Contract, for erecting a Monument in St. Paul's Cathedral, to Memory of Admiral Earl Howe
2,216
16
—
R. Westmacotr, Jun. Statuary, first Instalment under Contract, for erecting a Monument in St. Paul's Cathedral, to Memoty of Right Hon. Sir R Abercrombie
2,216
16
—
J. Topham, Esq. Reward to Persons employed under Commissrs, appointed to carry into Execution Measures recommended by House of Commons, respecting Public Records of the Kingdom
2,536
1
—
Mr. C. Rossi, Statuary, in full Payment For electing a Monument in St. Paul's Cathedral, to memory of Captain Faulkner
1,480
14
—
J. Dyson, Esq. Clerk Assistant to House of Commons, to make up his Allowance equal to 2,000l. for his Services in Session 1802–3
851
2
8
H. Alexander, Esq. Services as Chairman of Committee of Ways and Means, Session 1802–3
1,301
9
—
J. Topham, Esq. Reward to Persons employed under Commrs. appointed to carry into execution Measures recommended by House of Commons, respecting the Public Records of the Kingdom
978
7
—
S. Dunn, Esq. final Compensation for his Pains, Trouble, And Expense, in having compiled General Index to Journals of House of Commons, from 1790 to 1800
1,000
—
—
A. Benson, Esq. for making Index to Votes of House of Commons, for the Session 1802–3
350
—
—
J. Clementson, Esq. to make his Allowance equal to 500l. for Attendance as Deputy Serjeant at Arms, during the Session 1802–3
332
4
—
T. E. Tomlins, Compensation for Trouble in compiling Registers for the Use of Committee on Expired and Expiring laws, in the Session 1802–3
150
—
—
H. Gunnell, Esq. Compensations to sundry dicers of House of Commons for Attendance on Public Committees in the Session 1802–3
79
5
—
To make good to his Majesty's Civil List Revenues, Monies issued thercout for Public Services; viz.
C. Beaumont, Esq; for Journies and Expenses incurred in ma-
1134
£.
s.
d.
king Enquiries respecting State of Collieries
219
7
—
J. King, Esq. Sec. to Commsrs. appointed for ascertaining the Boundaries of New Forest
300
—
—
G Baldwin, Esq. Reward for Services in Egypt
1,086
1
6
W. Chinnery, Esq. to he paid over to Mr. Palmer, Commissary at New South Wales, as Half Freight for Vessel hired by Gov. Hunter of Mr. Palmer's Agent, for the Service of that colony
324
10
—
T. Brodie, Esq. for making Indexes to Journals of House of Lords
1,659
18
—
Lord Walsingham, for Attendance as Chairman of Committees of House of Seers, in Session 1801–2
2,701
9
—
G. Rose, Esq. for Expenses at Parliament Office, in Session 1801–2
360
18
2
T. Wilson, Gent. for Trouble and Expenses in attending Select Committee of House Commons for the Improvement of Port of London; and for preparing Model of a Bridge by Direction of the said Committee
169
7
6
E. Smith, Esq. to enable him to pay several Persons employed in preparing Abstracts, to be laid before Parliament, of Populat on of Great-Britain
500
—
—
J. H. Capper, Esq. to discharge Expenses incurred in making Abstracts of Cultivation of England and Wales
146
1
—
T. Gream, for Expenses incurred in surveying the Straits of Menai, the Conway River, and Holyhead Harbour and Coast
814
6
8
B. Cobbe, Esq. for Additional Allowance to Clerks in Office for Auditing Public Accounts, to 10th Oct. 1803
7,134
17
4
B. Cobbe, Esq. for Additional Allowance to discharge Fees on passing Accounts through Office of Treasury and Exchequer
3,000
—
—
J. W. Hay, Esq. Sec. to Commisrs. appointed under a Convention concluded with America, 8th Feb. 1802, for incidental Expenses attending Commission
1,060
8
6
B. Cobbe, Esq. for Additional Allowance to Clerks in Office for Auditing the public Accounts, Half Year, to 5th April 1803
5,100
18
3
W. Mitford, Esq. to pay a bill drawn by Lieut. Gen. Vyse, for Repairs of Port Patrick
558
17
5
J. Clementson, Esq. for Expenses incurred in removing from his official House, in consequence of Apartments being wanted for House of Commons
177
6
—
W. Chinnery, Esq. to be paid to
1135
£.
s.
d.
Lieut. Grant, late Commander of Colonial Brig Lady Nelson, for Losses sustained while he was employed by the Gov. of New South Wales, and for Expenses en his Return Home
98
13
3
Lieut. Grant, late Commander of Colonial Brig Lady Nelson, for sundry articles provided for Use of Convicts embarked on Board the Glatton, for New South Wales
291
8
3
Lieut. Grant, late Commander of Colonial Brig Lady Nelson, to defray passage to Bass's Straits, on the Coast of New South Wales, of the Lieut. Gov. of the Settlement intended to be formed there, and of Officers of Civil and Military Establishment
634
13
—
Sir G. Yonge, to repay Expenses incurred in consequence of Orders directing his immediate Return to England
1,060
7
6
J. Rennie, Esq. to defray the Expenses of Surveys, Reports, and Designs, for Bridges, over the Straits of Menai
657
11
4
Capt. J. Huddart, for Expenses incurred in a Journey to Bangor, Conway, Chester, and Liverpool, respecting Surveys and Designs for Bridges over the Straits of Menai, &c.
113
13
9
H. Nettleship, Esq. for making up and publishing in the London Gazette, Weekly Returns of the Average Price of Brown or Muscavado Sugar, for one Year, to 10th Oct. 1802
429
14
—
B. Cobbe, Esq. to discharge Fees on passing Public Accounts
3,000
—
—
C. Abercrombie, Esq. for Expenses attending Surveys of intended Military Roads thro' Part of the Counties of Sutherland and Caithness
229
18
6
M. Martin, Esq. in full Satisfaction of all Expenses incurred in an Inquiry into the Mendicity of the Metropolis
639
17
6
C. T. Cracklow, Esq. in Satisfaction for Loss sustained by erecting temporary Buildings at the Marshalsea
534
15
—
W. Chinnery, Esq. for Articles supplied Convicts at Pottsmouth, and the Settlement at New South Wales
822
9
1
W. Chinnery, Esq. to pay Bill drawn from New South Wales
Whitehall, Treasury Chambers, March 24th, 1804.
1136
£.
s.
d.
by Mr. W. Broughton, Commissary at Norfolk Island, for Wheat purchased for Use of that Settlement
471
5
—
Rt. Hon. G. Rose, for Expenses at Parliament Office, in Session 1802–3
433
19
3½
J. Clementson, Esq. for One Year's Rent of House in lieu of Apartments he resigned at the House of Commons, due Midsummer 1803
219
6
—
B. Cobbe, Esq. for Additional Allowance to Clerks in Office for auditing Public Accounts, Half Year, to 10th Oct. 1803
5,300
9
6
Lord Walsingham, for Attendance us Chairman of Committees of House of Peers, in Session 1802–3
2,701
9
—
Magistrates of Thames Police Office to defray Expenses of a Plan for the more perfect Security of the Shipping in the Port of London
649
2
—
W. Mitford, Esq. to pay a Bill drawn by Lieut. Gen. Vyse, for Repairs of Port Patrick
248
11
6
T. Brodie, Esq. as an Allowance on Account of Trouble in making Index co Journals of House of Lords
439
18
—
SERVICES ABROAD.
His Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Service, for 1802 and 1803
162,881
17
8
Repairing and maintaining British Forts on Coast of Africa
16,000
—
—
Civil Establishment of Upper Canada
8,900
—
—
Nova Scotia
7,665
—
—
New Brunswick, for 1802 and 1803
9,300
—
—
Saint John's
2,214
4
11¼
Cape Breton
1,840
—
—
Newfoundland
1,515
—
—
Bahamas
4,100
—
—
Bermuda, for 1802 and 1803
870
—
—
Dominica, for 1801 and 1802
1,200
—
—
New South Wales
9,124
17
9
Bills drawn from New South Wales for 1802 and 1803
19,030
—
—
£.
2,800,500
—
10¼
N. VANSITTART.
1137
An, Account of the UNFUNDED DEBT and Demands outstanding on 5th Jam 1804; under tile Heads of Exchequer, Treasury, Army, Barracks, Ordnance, Navy, Civil List Advances, and any other Head of Public Service; specifying the same; distinguishing, under each Head respectively, the Particulars of which such Debt or Demands consisted; and also what Part of the said Debt or Demands was then provided for, and in what Manner, and what Part thereof was unprovided for.
EXCHEQUER BILLS:
By what Acts raised On what Funds charged. Amount outstanding.
£.
s.
d.
39th and 40th Geo. III. Cap. 23. Aids Anno 1806, Extension of Bank, Charter
3,000,000
0
0
43th and 40th Geo. III. Cap. 3. Malt Tax 1803, Extension of Bank, Charter
750,000
0
0
43th and 40th Geo. III. Cap. 5. Aids Tax 1803, Extension of Bank Charter
*2,594,300
0
0
43th and 40th Geo. III. Cap. 36. Aids Tax 1804, Extension of Bank, Charter
3,000,000
0
0
43th and 40th Geo. III. Cap. 146. Aids Tax 1804, Vote of Credit
1,491,500
0
0
43th and 40th Geo. III. Cap. 147. Aids Tax 1804, Bank
1,500,500
0
0
43th and 40th Geo. III. Cap. 93. Aids Tax 1804, Bank
5,000,000
0
0
44th and 40th Geo. III. Cap. 16. Malt Tax 1804 Bank
455,000
0
0
44th and 40th Geo. III. Cap. 15. Aids Tax 1804
1,276,800
0
0
19,067,600
0
0
TREASURY:
Miscellaneous Services
248,845
0
5
Warrants for Army Services
275,841
2
1
Treasury Hills accepted previous to and on 5th Jan. 1804, due subsequent to that Day
225,925
1
4½
750,611
3
10½
ARMY:
Ordinary Services
732,334
0
0
Extraordinaries
Nil.
732,334
0
0
Barracks
1,481,041
15
4
Ordnance
646,311
14
6
Navy
4,037,307
17
8¾
Civil List Advances
5,246
17
6
£
26,720,453
8
11¾
* of these,
£
N. VANSITTART.
1138
1139
An Account of the Progress made in the REDEMPTION of the PUBLIC FUNDED DEBT Funds, and specifying how much of each has been redeemed by the Commissioners Stocks; and the Sums annually applicable to the Reduction thereof: likewise, the Account of Land Tax redeemed.
Funds.
Capitals.
Redeemed by Commissrs. From 1st Aug. 1786 to 1st Feb. 1804
Total Sums paid.
£.
s.
d.
£.
£.
s.
d.
Consolidated 3 per Cent. Ann.
327,996,558
4
5¼
31,865,400
19,680,485
7
11
Reduced 3 per Cent. Ann.
116,437,811
6
4
36,766,667
22,591,790
13
6
Old South Sea Ann.
24,065,084
13
11½
5,789,000
4,201,986
18
—
New South Sea Ann.
3 per Cent. South Sea Anno 1751
1,919,600
0
0
660,000
491,300
10
—
470,419,054
4
8¾
75,081,067
Consolidated 4 per Cent. Ann.
49,425,084
17
4
2,617,400
2,278,402
1
3
Consolidated 5 per Cent. Ann.
28,125,581
19
1
5 per Cent. Ann. 1797 and 1802
22,352,456
5
—
3 per Cent. Ann. 1797 and 1726
1,000,000
—
—
3 per Cent. Bank Ann.
11,686,800
—
—
583,008,978
6
5¾
77,698,467
49,243,065
10
8
Transferred to Commissrs, by reason of Land Tar redeemed 1st Feb. 1804
21,147,888
19
2
Debt existing 1st Feb. 1804
561,861,089
7
3¾
Redeemed by Commissioners
77,698,467
—
—
Debt unredeemed 1st Feb. 1804
484,161,622
7
3¾
An Account of the Progress made in the REDEMPTION of the PUBLIC DEBT of IRELAND Funded in Great-Britain, 1st February, 1804.
Funds.
Capitals.
Redeemed by the Commissrs. to 1st Feb. 1804.
Total Sums Paid.
Average Price of Stocks.
Sums Annually applicable to Reduction of Debt.
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
3 per Ct. Consol Ann.
16,989,250
734,600
465,548
10
1
63⅜
1 per Cent, on Capitals created
257,359
19
3
3 per Ct. Reduced Ann.
8,258,750
861,071
518,082
16
8
60¼
61⅛
Dividend on
£
47,870
2
7
25,248,000
1,595,671
983,631
6
9
4 per Ct. Consol Ann.
300,000
25,548,000
305,230
1
10
Redeemed by Comissrs.
1,595,671
Unredeem
d
23,952,329
Exchequer, the 20th Day of March, 1804.
JAMES FISHER.
1140
1141
of GREAT-BRITAIN, at 1st February, 1804; distinguishing, the Capitals of the several for the Reduction of the National Debt since 1st August, 1786; the Average Price of Annuities to fall in: also, the Capital of Debt transferred to the said Commissioners on
Average Price of Stocks.
Sums Annually applicable to the Deduction of Public Debt.
Annuities fallen in since 22d June, 1802, or that will fall in hereafter.
£.
s.
d.
Excheq. Ann. 2 et 3 Annæ, viz.
£.
s.
d.
61¾
Annual Charges by Act 26 Geo. III.
1,000,000
—
—
Expired at 5th April, 1803
23,369
13
4
Expire at 5th Jan. 1805
7,030
6
8
61⅜
Annual Charges by Act 42 Geo. III.
200,000
—
—
Expire 4 at 5th April 1805
23,554
11
6
72½
Annuities for 99 and 96 Years expired 1792
54,880
14
6
Expire 5 at 5th April 1806
7,776
10
—
Expire 6 at 5th April 1807
4,710
10
—
74⅜
Annuities for 10 Years, expired 1787
25,000
—
—
Expire 6 at 5th July, 1807
10,181
—
—
Bank Long Ann. expire 1860
1,047,494
5
4½
87
Life Annuities unclaimed for 3 Years, or of which the Nominees died prior to 5th July, 1802
49,376
15
7
Bank Short Ann. expire 1808
418,333
—
11
N. B. By Act 42 Geo. III. Cap. 71. such Annuities as fall in after passing that Act, are not to be placed to the Account of Commissrs for Reduction of Public Debt; but are no longer to be continued in the Annual Charge thereof.
63¾ ⅜
Dividend on
£.
2,252,432
—
2
Dividend on
£.
104,696
—
—
Annuity at 1 per Cent. on Part of Capitals created since 1st Feb. 1793
2,645,240
16
9
6,311,626
7
—
An Account of the Progress made in the REDEMPTION of the IMPERIAL DEBT, 1st February, 1804.
Funds.
Capitals.
Redeemed by the Commssrs. at 1st Feb. 1804.
Total Sums paid.
Average Price of Stocks.
Sums Annually applicable to the Reduction of Debt.
£
£
£.
s.
d.
£
s.
d.
Imperial 3 per Cent.
3,669,300
459,828
265,939
4
2
57⅞
1 per Cent. on Captal created
36,693
—
—
Redeemed
459,828
Unredeem'1st Feb. 1804
3,209,472
Dividend on
£.
13,794
16
9
50,487
16
9
Office for Reduction of National Debt, the 20th Day of March, 1804.
G. T. GOODENOUGH,
Secretary.
1142
1143
An Account of the Value of all IMPORTS into, and all EXPORTS from Great Britain, for Eighteen Years, ending the 5th of January, 1804; distinguishing each Year, and distinguishing the Value of Imports from the East Indies and China, from the Value of all other Imports; and distinguishing the Value of British Produce and Manufactures exported, from the Value of Foreign Articles exported; together with the Difference between the official Value, and the declared Value of British Produce and Manufactures exported in the Year ending 5th January, 1804.
Official Value of Imports from
Official Value of
Years.
East Indies and China.
All other Parts.
British Produce and Manufactures exported.
Foreign Merchandize exported.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1786
3,156,687
0
7
14,629,385
6
10
11,830,372
18
11
4,475,493
9
3
1787
3,430,868
0
6
14,373,146
15
7
12,053,900
3
5
4,815,889
3
1
1788
3,453,897
3
5
14,573,2,72
17
10
12,724,719
17
9
4,747,518
10
6
1789
3,362,545
4
10
14,458,557
5
9
13,779,506
2
6
5,561,042
15
1
1790
3,149,870
14
4
15,981,015
10
11
14,921,084
9
7
5,199,037
7
7
1791
3,698,713
13
0
15,971,069
0
7
16,810,018
16
4
5,921,976
10
11
1792
2,701,547
9
4
16,957,810
17
3
18,336,851
6
11
6,568,348
16
6
1793
3,499,023
12
10
15,757,693
16
10
13,892,268
17
7
6,497,911
9
3
1794
4,458,475
1
5
17,830,418
19
0
16,725,402
16
2
10,022,680
12
8
1795
5,760,810
8
3
16,976,079
1
8
16,338,213
2
2
10,785,125
15
2
1796
3,372,689
0
6
19,814,630
17
11
19,102,220
3
11
11,416,693
11
10
1797
3,945,384
5
1
17,071,572
12
4
16,903,103
6
1
12,013,907
2
0
1798
7,626,930
6
9
20,230,950
1
11
19,672,503
0
9
13,919,274
13
11
1799
4,284,805
9
10
22,552,626
16
5
24,084,213
0
10
11,907,116
3
11
1800
4,942,275
10
9
25,628,329
15
7
24,304,283
13
6
18,847,735
12
0
1801
5,424,441
16
4
27,371,115
5
3
25,699,809
6
1
16,601,192
10
2
1802
5,794,996
13
3
25,647,412
4
5
26,993,129
13
0
19,127,833
3
8
1803
21,646,968
11
3
22,252,101
13
3
11,537,148
0
3
Inspector General's Office, Custom House, London, 23d March 1804.
WILLIAM IRVING, Inspector General of the Imports and Exports of Great Britain.
NOTE.—The real Value of British Produce and Manufactures exported to all Parts of the World, as ascertained under the Acts of the 42d and 43d of his Majesty, Cap. 43 ct 70, and from other correct Sources of Information, amounted in the Year ending the 5th January 1803 to 48,500,683
l.
l.
In the Account of foreign Merchandize, the official Estimates are in general under the real Value, but in the Instance of Coffee exported, they greatly exceed; and therefore, in order to shew the true comparative State of this Branch of our Trade, the Price of Coffee is reduced to its real Value, as follows, viz.
1801.
1802.
1803.
Reduced Value of Coffee
3,186,948
3,323,994
1,562,742
Official Value of all other Articles
8,900,099
11,094,843
7,760,515
Total Value of foreign Goods exported
£.
14,418,837
9,323,257
The Account of the Value of the Imports from India and China, for the Year ending 5th January, 1804, cannot yet be prepared.
The Difference between the Sums stated in the present Account, and those returned in the Account of last Year, arises from sundry over Entries and Allowances, and other Circumstances, which could not at that Time be ascertained.
1144
1145
An Account of the official or rated Value of all IMPORTS into GREAT-BRITIAN (exclusive of Importations from the East-Indies and China) during the last seven Years; distinguishing each Year; and the principle Articles imported.
Species of Goods.
1797.
1798.
1799.
1800.
1801.
1802.
1803.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
Ashes, Pearl and Pot
121,578
186,707
162,456
238,152
191,327
148,254
142,786
Barilla
28,418
70,923
80,708
96,730
34,780
84,518
77,705
Cochincal
16,580
83,052
270,610
169,940
203,805
282,775
184,642
Coffee
2,391,883
2,977,309
2,568,570
3,949,471
4,416,822
3,035,216
1,474,154
Corn
1,179,376
1,218,144
1,097,702
2,675,046
3,032,278
1,159,670
935,657
Currants
53,996
65,994
78,830
75,386
52,127
98,287
106,594
Flax, Rough
401,371
766,196
828,401
804,938
530,328
529,973
575,123
Hemp, Rough
414,794
550,658
639,685
506,956
636,267
406,066
613,494
Indigo
47,618
17,522
54,283
87,948
73,641
67,806
86,217
Iron. Bar
361,322
507,840
472,732
374,949
326,609
517,269
425,205
Linen
1,794,211
1,750,176
2,226,751
1,742,835
1,695,329
2,056,755
1,641,626
Madder, and Madder Roots
166,691
112,962
132,869
213,838
167,025
297,545
214,507
Oil, Ordinary
16,538
25,652
44,528
121,869
33,193
66,353
129,916
Oil, Train
237,695
200,652
214,333
212,577
265,254
248,204
258,405
Provisions
1,237,932
1,203,192
1,055,849
1,229,902
1,027,129
1,092,530
1,221,814
Quicksilver
27,051
32,031
27,184
22,152
44,697
113,811
17,110
Raisins
51,633
93,480
67,985
89,410
79,428
90,130
90,542
Rice
88,313
150,627
68,675
232,619
193,337
74,269
77,212
Seeds, Linseed
88,452
102,413
105,170
131,697
84,191
132,752
116,877
Silk, Raw
54,198
137,168
301,768
89,630
145,273
211,059
183,390
Silk, Thrown
481,994
483,682
561,224
400,460
330,178
475,452
461,716
Skins and Furs
243,512
285,631
230,647
385,693
259,991
295,324
290,985
Spirits, Brandy
150,211
149,965
184,502
234,676
260,387
213,617
217,793
Spirits, Rum
159,769
375,671
247,602
334,504
420,854
441,374
370,182
Sugar, Brown
2,769,763
3,470,994
4,471,347
4,026,057
5>351,707
5,798,704
4,232,143
Tallow
268,658
479,334
497,768
450,854
358,406
604,805
583,641
Tar
70,922
116,126
166,311
99,580
92,996
86,567
187,176
Tobacco
160,881
391,164
354,375
365,716
423,089
253,510
346,400
Whalefins
68,831
70,082
65,409
59,580
61,916
84,772
60,586
Wine, Portugal
306,229
419,818
600,410
512,886
704,469
547,843
686,569
Wine, Spanish, & other Wines
76,443
143,567
231,657
257,465
214,994
181,717
227,445
Wood Deals
68,821
81,460
80,333
88,137
84,808
86,623
106,526
Wood Logwood
84,073
62,957
107,423
121,233
86,528
73,955
146,562
Wood Mahogany
59,658
26,360
35,312
77,768
59,066
82,610
140,569
Wood Mafts
261,093
137,259
117,902
209,999
356,138
155,778
170,864
Wood Redwood
10,781
18,396
33,926
57,373
70,388
96,727
33,180
Wood Timber, Fir
91,811
107,160
111,709
138,893
119,839
191,054
212,038
Wood Cotton
733,956
999,921
1,226,811
1,663,375
1,788,856
2,002,309
1,777,371
Wood Spanish
278,204
157,642
302,674
503,169
395,044
392,289
284,110
Yarn, Linen, Raw
359,541
440,679
525,367
505,978
423,214
417,829
375,398
All other Articles
1,487,131
1,560,393
1,900,935
2,069,088
2,265,416
2,451,311
2,162,738
Total
17,071,572
20,230,959
22,552,627
25,628,329
27,371,115
25,647,412
21,646,968
Deduct Corn and other Grain
1,267,689
1,368,771
1,166,377
2,907,665
3,225,615
1,233,939
1,012,869
Total (exclusive of Corn and other Grain, and exclusive of Importations from the Eaft-Indies and China
15,803,883
18,862,188
21,386,250
22,720,664
24,145,500
24,413,473
20,634,099
WILLIAM IRVING,
Inspector General's Office, Custom-House, London, 6th April 1804.
Inspector General of the Imports and Exports of Great-Britain.
1146
1147
An ACCOUNT of the official or rated value of BRITISH PRODUCE and MANUFACTURES exported from GREAT-BRITAIN, during the last Seven Years; distinguishing each Year; and the principal Articles exported.
Species of Goods.
1797.
1798.
1799.
1800.
1801.
1802.
1803.
Value.
Value.
Value.
Value.
Value.
Value.
Value.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
Apparel
21,461
60,192
108,386
90,556
68,814
110,253
94,648
Bark, Oak
33,709
33,025
63,434
63,549
47,364
38,986
36,081
Beer
83,151
69,577
91,187
86,043
77,026
76,956
58,805
Brass, Wrought
219,099
211,163
346,611
419,507
364,745
408,115
318,486
Candles
49,437
63,966
79,927
46,892
48,753
38,031
36,848
Coals
458,310
459,173
473,840
530,508
477,620
536,415
510,825
Copper, Wrought
397,495
413,939
515,967
514,216
511,919
669,393
482,909
Cottons
2,446,144
3,544,280
5,556,554
5,323,834
6,465,173
7,130,904
6,467,198
Fish
275,144
270,490
251,418
253,267
236,295
192,303
115,025
Glass
161,867
140,098
174,158
195,066
218,655
179,902
162,726
Haberdashery
148,067
142,138
144,978
129,074
111,964
109,308
72,101
Hats, Beaver
188,020
197,016
280,989
261,157
194,406
227,251
173,324
Hats, Felt
123,440
125,688
155,120
137,113
149,148
139,136
104,809
Hops
64,875
48,720
55,050
60,241
77,016
98,099
60,759
Iron, Bar
13,178
18,888
26,901
28,514
30,018
54,969
53,304
Iron, Wrought, Cast, &c.
1,067,691
1,069,290
1,488,074
1,570,810
1,417,715
1,616,204
1,218,038
Lead
156,560
164,085
164,838
139,996
171,967
174,626
146,398
Leather, Wrought
88,097
103,037
151,310
98,370
95,647
97,168
80,616
Linens
756,738
1,102,507
1,115,305
807,572
1,009,194
895,156
561,310
Oil, Train
17,600
28,510
31,334
105,770
61,892
147,868
41,228
Pewter
80,637
80,453
121,320
113,330
110,305
67,650
54,168
Salt
128,293
165,178
182,299
197,872
270,817
219,174
160,804
Silks
295,805
225,189
305,803
296,826
280,482
232,445
154,741
Soap
53,864
78,149
108,956
95,685
77,769
91,480
57,295
Steel
70,958
57,315
180,597
121,808
136,082
123,887
121,193
Stationery
36,811
43,664
69,890
60,997
48,010
64,138
51,915
Stockings, Thread, Cotton, and Silk, mixt
103,622
154,447
199,264
180,834
219,184
243,371
167,431
Sugar, Refined
492,981
687,319
342,958
1,105,548
935,935
1,492,319
1,541,658
Tin
169,533
227,032
215,695
249,842
226,935
279,168
221,567
Woollen, Goods
4,625,205
6,178,016
6,435,423
6,918,175
7,311,236
6,487,263
5,291,441
Yarn, Cotton
20,175
77,235
302,734
528,014
476,106
536,031
744,250
All other Articles
4,055,135
3,432,724
4,343,892
3,567,287
3,761,017
4,215,150
2,889,100
Total
16,903,103
19,672,503
24,084,213
24,304,283
25,699,809
26,993,129
22,252,101
WILLIAM IRVING,
Inspector General's Office, Custom-House, London, 6th April, 1804.
Inspector General of the Imports and Export of Great Britain.
1148
1149
An Account of the Official or Rates Value of all FOREIGN MERCHANDIZE exported from GREAT-BRITAIN, during the last Seven Years; distinguishing each Year; and the principal Articles exported.
1797.
1798.
1799.
1800.
1801.
1802.
1803.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
Borax
18,710
4,927
2,406
7,559
42,454
60,350
86,359
Brandy
14,157
25,030
34,494
52,140
37,759
29,628
40,049
Cinnamon
5,996
72,185
95,994
145,009
109,622
142,735
124,288
Cloves
3,779
45,387
59,090
133,142
109,893
112,709
80,284
Cochineal
46,170
9,305
147,150
165,337
64,194
183,132
54,601
Coffee
4,454,703
5,672,726
4,034,873
8,679,886
7,761,606
8,133,299
3,823,583
Hemp, Rough
6,940
26,302
9,065
8,032
6,094
45,919
16,898
Indigo
605,351
345,536
517,585
510,075
445,855
400,088
225,941
Iron, Bar
83,301
62,844
90,604
66,775
53,191
87,822
47,471
Linens
313,758
533,478
904,876
508,826
587,392
441,774
267,550
Piece Goods of India.
Calicoes
1,566,613
1,299,981
1,033,379
1,339,622
978,231
1,541,646
1,483,264
Muslins
638,589
406,475
342,866
579,501
579,323
425,177
276,729
Nankeens
22,235
14,971
28,895
37,188
44,306
70,488
81,708
Prohibited
687,922
703,057
662,128
708,653
787,313
654,823
487,703
Pepper
147,175
318,471
134,520
374,071
149,531
312,388
238,744
Pimento
16,460
20,150
34,840
48,382
36,834
26,990
28,148
Rice
69,716
72,785
44,614
6,390
20,789
210,276
54,310
Rhubarb
69,201
22,446
51,182
58,910
129,541
153,261
75,483
Rum
114,862
95,265
386,521
431,599
388,486
390,773
196,876
Saltpetre
29,562
41,808
52,649
27,806
34,148
116,861
56,916
Saltpetre
83,098
52,546
63,702
81,284
86,288
81,861
54,100
Sugar
1,403,186
2,045,096
1,052,634
2,361,332
1,576,666
2,740,388
1,817,443
Tea
351,678
518,676
685,599
456,482
710,439
621,659
568,664
Tobacco
353,275
355,838
347,115
627,968
493,438
515,120
337,444
Wine, Portugal
31,341
36,549
38,904
35,513
44,760
44,819
31,391
Wine, Spanish, and all other Wines
74,518
140,585
91,611
157,474
141,522
58,214
69,780
Wool, Cotton
27,166
22,241
28,972
177,144
70,633
161,525
60,917
All other Articles
774,436
954,614
930,848
1,061,635
1,111,584
1,364,108
860,495
Total
12,013,907
13,919,274
11,907,116
18,847,735
16,601,892
19,127,833
11,537,148
Deduct, over Estimate on Coffee
2,601,297
3,301,748
2,350,972
5,031,898
4,514,845
4,708,996
2,213,891
£.
9,412,610
10,617,526
9,556,144
13,815,837
12,087,047
14,418,837
9,323,257
WILLIAM IRVING,
Inspector General's Office, Custom House London, April 6th, 1804.
Inspector General of the Imports and Exports of Great Britain.
1150
1151
An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their Tonnage, and the Number of Men and Boys employed in Navigating the same (including their repeated Voyages) which entered Inwards and cleared Outwards, in the several Ports of ENGLAND, from, or to, all Parts of the World, between the 5th January, 1803, and the 5th January, 1804; distinguishing British from Foreign Vessels; and the Countries from whence the said Vessels arrived, or to which they were bound.
England.
INWARDS.
OUTWARDS.
British.
Foreign.
British.
Foreign.
Countries.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Amer.
Brit. Col.
241
42,938
2,417
2
173
14
286
47,640
3,068
2
533
22
Unit. St.
88
20,855
1,035
445
107,654
5,069
47
12,214
677
427
104,966
5,283
Africa
36
7,598
581
132
30,136
3,905
4
613
56
Barbary
9
1,001
54
2
211
13
—
—
—
Botany Bay
3
1,510
126
—
—
—
Cape of G. Hope
4
913
61
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
Dantzic
112
24,230
949
86
18,242
812
31
6,669
314
25
8,543
349
Denmk. and Norw.
346
44,926
2,721
837
164,766
8,687
454
81,921
4,333
785
155,661
7,804
East Indies
70
57,765
6,035
4
1,530
81
55
50,905
6,115
1
387
16
Flanders
4
334
20
32
3,012
170
65
5,646
332
Florida
4
925
60
2
372
28
3
960
45
France
301
22,322
1,604
329
25,661
2,264
124
9,959
742
331
25,466
2,137
Germany
95
14,872
749
156
18,128
969
190
32,277
1,633
155
24,849
1,152
Gibraltar and Streights
16
2,764
146
43
6,391
362
4
800
45
Greenland and Davis's Streights
87
26,311
3,385
3
900
78
80
24,328
3,208
—
—
—
Guernsey, Jersey, Alderney, &c.
382
27,591
1,620
575
38,244
2,468
—
—
—
Hambro'
60
11,833
556
26
4,505
231
84
18,239
870
30
5,824
287
Holland
182
24,722
1,350
510
34,321
2,100
168
22,410
1,225
393
27,817
2,086
Honduras (Bay of)
32
8,250
388
17
4,777
297
—
—
—
Hudson's Bay
2
626
69
3
780
90
—
—
—
Isle of Man
375
12,606
1,046
427
16,641
1,240
—
—
—
Ireland
4,053
397,576
21,846
27
3,483
200
4,138
407,230
23,850
1
90
12
Italy
166
23,465
1,349
5
974
46
41
5,928
352
27
5,580
277
Malta
22
5,999
327
13
2,216
211
—
—
—
Portugal & Madeira
348
46,828
2,602
80
10,045
725
208
33,110
2,125
59
9,396
585
Prussia
487
110,276
4,848
909
122,532
5,286
315
67,714
3,149
828
114,667
5,481
Russia
890
209,596
8,989
13
3,126
144
790
156,831
7,527
38
9,443
413
Southern Fishery
32
9,445
730
39
11,034
926
—
—
—
Spain and Canaries
199
26,752
1,467
137
19,653
1,988
63
9,264
591
141
20,966
1,237
Sweden
66
10,100
636
279
47,428
2,709
66
11,322
550
127
21,353
987
Turkey
27
5,150
277
9
1,549
94
—
—
—
W. Ind Colon
British
479
143,660
7,858
374
111,726
7,070
—
—
—
Conquer.
35
7,861
518
49
12,262
875
273
13
Foreign
52
13,577
914
16
3,624
224
12
2,852
182
1,497
84
Total
9,302
1,368,673
77,209
3,898
590,129
30,925
8,838
1,237,460
78,188
3,453
543,330
28,703
J. DALLEY,
Assistant Register General of Shipping, 24th March, 1804.
1152
1137
An ACCOUNT of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their Tonnage, which have been annually built and registered in the several Ports of the British Empire, between the 5th January, 1802, and the 5th January, 1804.
Years.
Vessels.
Tonnage.
In the Year 1802
being the Accoount delivered last Year, and now corrected.
1,281
137,508
In the Year 1803
1,350
131,006
Copies of the Certificates of Registry granted at many of the Ports in the Plantations, for the Year ending 5th January, 1804, being unreceived, the Vessels that may have been built at such Ports are not included in this Account.
J. DALLEY,
Assistant Reg. General of Shipping, 24th March, 1804.
An ACCOUNT of the Number of VESSELS, and the Amount of their Tonnage, and the Number of Men and Boys usually employed in navigating the same, which belonged to the several Ports of the British Empire on the 30th September in the Years 1802 and 1803; distinguishing Great Britain, Ireland, and the British Plantations in America, and the West Indies; as far as the same can be prepared.
On the 30th Sep. 1802, being the Account delivered last Year, and now corrected.
On the 30th Sept. 1803.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
England
13,446
1,642,224
113,670
13,936
1,709,302
115,269
Jersey
55
4,367
559
83
7,264
995
Guernsey
93
8,610
634
137
11,988
1,614
Man
234
5,516
1,268
372
8,799
2,138
Plantations
3,361
226,893
17,907
3,225
235,164
15,764
Scotland
2,349
183,935
15,434
2,662
209,222
14,607
Ireland
1,030
56,510
5,058
1,030
56,510
5,058
Total
20,568
2,128,055
154,530
21,445
2,238,249
155,445
The Returns from many of the Ports in the Plantations being unreceived for the Year ending 30th September, 1803, the Amount of the Shipping at such Ports have been taken from the corrected Accounts of the Year preceding; and the same Mode has been pursued with respect to Ireland, no Account having been delivered to this Office for the Year 1803.
J. DALLEY,
Assistant Register General of Shipping, 24th March, 1804.
1138
1139
An Account of the Number of VESSELS, with the Amount of their Tonnage, and the Number of Men and Boys employed in navigating the same (including their repeated Voyages) which entered Inwards and cleared Outwards, in the several Ports of SCOTLAND, from, or to, all Parts of the World, between the 5th January 1803, and the 5th January 1804; distinguishing British from Foreign Vessels; and the Countries from whence the said Vessels arrived, or to which they were bound.
SCOTLAND.
INWARDS.
OUTWARDS.
British.
Foreign.
British.
Foreign.
COUNTRIES.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
Ships.
Tons.
Men.
America
Brit. Colon.
65
12,181
671
—
—
—
80
14,944
1,053
—
—
—
United St.
47
9,783
558
38
7,773
397
42
8,876
584
35
6,891
381
Dantzic
6
533
34
—
—
—
4
481
31
—
—
—
Denmark and Norway
90
9,613
552
263
33,104
1,984
91
10,701
614
138
19,092
1,074
Florida
—
—
—
1
200
10
—
—
—
1
152
8
Gibraltar and Streights
2
462
22
2
297
12
1
195
11
—
—
—
Gibraltar and Streights
1
194
11
—
—
—
1
121
7
—
—
—
Germany
21
2,629
142
6
526
29
47
5,928
337
4
532
23
Greenland and Davis's Streights
15
4,280
591
—
—
—
15
4,280
598
—
—
—
Guernsey
4
428
23
—
—
—
1
90
4
—
—
—
Jersey
—
—
—
—
—
—
1
60
4
—
—
—
Hamburgh
2
404
18
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
—
Honduras (Bay of)
2
413
25
—
—
—
3
685
53
—
—
—
Holland
51
5,135
316
14
1,284
64
11
1,082
62
6
1,083
51
Ireland
1,743
107,308
7,718
—
—
—
1,518
95,049
7,306
—
—
—
Isle of Man
31
981
101
—
—
—
40
1,185
129
—
—
—
Italy
9
1,358
74
—
—
—
6
645
39
—
—
—
Malta
—
—
—
—
—
—
2
258
17
—
—
—
Poland
18
2,143
127
1
450
14
17
2,423
124
—
—
—
Portugal and Madeira
34
4,361
267
2
210
14
12
1,405
86
1
181
8
Prussia
171
29,005
1,398
12
1,745
81
78
12,490
652
19
2,506
121
Russia
220
29,087
1,544
—
—
—
130
19,868
1,023
—
—
—
Spain
18
2,656
131
5
583
31
7
1,299
81
2
357
19
Sweden
69
5,322
342
8
1,193
69
40
3,433
215
2
239
17
West-India Colonies
British.
60
15,389
922
—
—
—
69
17,936
1,431
—
—
—
Conquer.
12
1,543
148
—
—
—
15
3,299
248
—
—
—
Foreign
3
484
60
2
540
30
3
647
43
1
179
9
Total
2,694
245,692
15,795
354
47,905
2,735
2,234
207,380
14,752
209
31,212
1,711
J. DALLEY,
Assistant Register General of Shipping, 24th March, 1804.
1140
1141
Estimate of the Sums that will probably be required for the Service of the BARRACK DEPARTMENT, in Great Britain, in the Year 1804.—Dated Dec. 9, 1803.—
Signed, Ol. De Lancy, B. M. Gen.
Coals and Candles
£.
Bedding and Furniture
25,000
Barrack Masters' Expenditure for Utensils, Straw, Salaries &c
85,485
Rents
28,809
Lodging Money
20,723
Allowance to Governors
2,857
Barrack Office Establishment
13,329
Contingencies
5,836
Additional Works to Barracks
36,030
Additional Works to Hospitals
26,400
Repairs, &c. &c.
59,345
Stables for Regimental Staff Officers and Bât Horses
25,410
£.
For Services ordered in 1803:
New Barracks
£.
New hired and fitted
41,450
New Hospitals
221,049
1,231,561
Purchase of Premises, &c.
27,019
Furniture and Utensils
266,151
1,524,731
On Account of Barracks ordered to be erected, but not yet begun
119,000
2,275,045
Fees to be paid at the War Office
28,885
Total to be provided in the Year 1804
£.
An Account of the Amount of the Notes of the Bank of Ireland, in Circulation (including Bank Post Bills payable after Seven Days Sight) on the 1st January, April, June, and September, 1797, respectively.—Presented to the Houses of Commons.—Dated Dec. 9, 1803.—Signed W. Donlevy, Acct. Gen.
£.
s.
d.
1797 1st January
621,917
6
4
April
737,268
13
11½
June
853,612
2
5
September
959,999
10
6
Abstract from the List, presented to the House of Commons, by Mr. Secretary Yorke, of VOLUNTEER CORPS in Great Britain, which have been placed on permanent Pay and Duty, since first Nov. 1803; as far as the same can be made out.—Dated 20th February, 1804.—Signed, R. Poole Carew, Under Sec. State.
Colonels
6
Lieut. Colonels
36
Majors
38
1142
Captains
237
Lieutenants
294
Cornets or Ensigns
219
Chaplains
5
Paymaster
17
Adjutants
28
Quarter Masters
30
Surgeons
14
Assistant Surgeons
7
Serjeant Majors
23
Serjeants
795
Corporals
278
Trumpeters or Drummers
353
Privates
23,792
General Abstract of the SUBDIVISION ROLLS, required by Act 43 Geo. III. Cap. 96, so far as the same can be at present made up from the Returns transmitted to the Office of the Secretary of State for the Home Department.—Dated Feb. 15, 1804.—Signed Reginald Pole Carew.
No. in 1st Class, effective
444,086
2d Effective
110,966
3d Effective
174,109
4th Effective
613,602
Voluntary Service
406,786
Army, Marines, Volunteer Corps, Sea Fencibles
139,471
Clergy, licenced Teachers, Medical Men, and Constables
24,885
Infirm
90,938
Enrolled in Parishes out of the County
2,822
Abstract of an Account of the Amount of PREMIUMS, BOUNTIES, and Sums of Money expended under the Authority of the Act of the 41st Geo. III. Cap, 99, for granting Bounties for taking and bringing Fish to the Cities of London and Westminster, and other Places in the United Kingdom, in the last Season:—Which Premiums or Bounties have been given in consequence of Directions from the Lords Commissioners of his Majesty's Treasury: presented to Parliament, in pursuance of the 3d Sect. of said Act.—Dated 14th Dec. 1803.—Signed, N. Vansittart, Sec. Treasury.
Ports.
Amount of Premium.
London
£.
0
0
Exeter
489
5
0
Bristol
95
0
0
Edinburgh
245
0
0
Ireland
6,000
0
0
Charges and Expenses attending the ascertaining the Bounties
1,561
4
0
Total
11,260
9
0
1143
An Account of EXTRAORDINARY Expenses of the ARMY, incurred and paid by the right hon. the Paymaster General of his Majesty's Forces, from the 25th Dec. 1803, both inclusive.
£.
s.
d.
1803. Feb. 7.—To Mrs. Pickstone (late Budd) for Provisions in store in the L. of Jersey and Alderney
1,622
14
4
April 20.—To Mrs. Pickstone (late Budd) for Provisions in Guernsey, Jersey, and Alderney
1,353
13
5
May 21.—To Mrs. Pickstone (late Budd) for Provisions in Guernsey
1,342
17
8
Sep. 21.—The Representatives of Mrs. Pickstone, for Provision in Jersey, Guernsey, and Alderney
1,332
4
5
July 16.—G. Duley, Esq. for Provisions supplied by his late Father, Capt. B. Duley, to the late Capt. W. Lacey, for the Use of the Gar. at Gorce
1,127
5
6
Sep. 15.—Mr. I. Davis, for Supplies furnished by him to the Troops in Flanders in 1795
937
5
2
Bills of Exch. dated 27th May to 30th Sept. 1803, drawn by Ed. Stanley, Consul at Trieste, for Belief of Emigrants
133
12
0
Bills of Exch. Dated 3d Oct. 1802, drawn by J. Robley, Pres. at Tobago, for Salary of Sec. and for Stationery
52
13
8
Bills of Exch. dated 26th Oct. to 17th Dec. 1802, drawn by W. Eppes, Com. at Newfoundland, for Provisions and Stores furnished the Gar.
661
13
3
Bills of Exch. 3d Dec. 1802 to 17th Oct. 1803, drawn by T. Durell, Dep. Com. on the Continent for Continental Claims, for Stores supplied the Army in Flanders, and pay of Dutch Officers
29,041
9
4
Bills of Exch. 1st May, 1802 to 1st Nov. 1803, drawn by Lt. Gen. A. Gordon, Lt. Gov. of Jersey, for Subsistence of Jersey Troop, Ordnance Works, and Hire of Vessels, &c.
3,689
5
1
Bills of Exch. 1st Dec. 1802 to 1st Nov. 1803, drawn by the Prince of Bouillon, Commandant at Jersey, for Relief of Emigrants
5,500
0
0
Bills of Exch. 7th July to 10th Oct. 1801, drawn by G. Burgman, Dep. Com. Gen. in the Mediterranean, for Expenses of Army in Egypt
5,960
0
0
Bill, dated 27th Sept. 1801, drawn by R. H. Kennedy, Acting Com. Gen. in Egypt
154
2
6
Bills of Ex. dated 12th July, 1803, drawn by Lt. Col. Fahy, Lieut. Gov. of Alderney, for public Services
118
17
6
Bills of Ex. 28th Aug. 1802, drawn by T. Carleton, Lt. Gov. of N. Brunswick, for N. Brunswick Reg.
361
0
0
Bills of Ex. 14th Sept. 1802, drawn by W. Keppel, Gov. of Martinique, for Chaplain and See's Salary
51
0
0
Bills of Ex. 22d Sept. 1802, drawn by A. Green, Dep. Paymaster at Halifax, for Service of Prince Edward's Fencibles
300
0
0
1144
£.
s.
d.
Bills of Ex. 6th Jan. 1803, drawn by Lt. Col. C. Stevenson, Commandant at Guernsey, for public Services and Contingencies
281
5
2
Bills of Ex. dated 4th March to 15th Nov. 1803, drawn by Maj. Gen. J. Doyle, Commandant at Guernsey, for public Services and Contingencies
6,404
12
5
Bill, dated nth April 1801, drawn by A. Fernandes, Assist. Com. Gen. in the Mediterranean, for Expenses of Army in Egypt
500
0
0
Bills of Ex. dated 24th Sept. 1802 to 19th Aug. 1803, drawn by J. Halkett, Gov. of the Bahamas, for Provisions and Hire of armed Vessels, and Service of the Ordnance, &c.
17,334
2
4
Bills of Ex. 29th June, 1802, to 24th March 1803, drawn by G. Beckwith, Gov. of Bermuda, for military Exp of that Colony
3,772
8
11
Bills of Ex. 4th June, 1802, drawn by the hon. W. Wyndham, Envoy at Florence, for Service of Emigrants
2,600
0
0
Bills of Ex. 3d June, 1802, drawn by the hon. A. C Johnstone Gov. of Dominica, for Relief of the French Adm. La Crosse
1,500
0
0
Bills of Ex. 3d Feb. to 18th June, 1802, drawn by H. Le Mesurier, Com. Gen. in the Mediterranean, for Service of the Army there
80,310
0
0
Bills of Ex. 20th Oct. to 30th Nov. 1802, drawn by E. Corbet, Agent for Affairs of St. Domingo, for Pay of himself and Persons employed in his Depart.
840
0
0
Bills of Ex. 20th Dec. 1800, drawn by H. Motz, Com. Gen. in the Mediterranean, on acct. of Army in Egypt
20,000
0
0
Bills of Ex. 24th March to 24th June 1803, drawn by Brig. Gen. G. Prevost, Lt. Gov. of St. Lucia, for Contingencies
544
10
5
Bills of Ex. 28th Sep. 1802 to 24th June, 1803, drawn by S. Dent, Gov. of Grenada, for Contingencies
973
5
10
Bill, 28th Dec. 1802, drawn by W. Drummond, Envoy at Naples, for Service of Emigrants
2,000
0
0
Bills of Ex. 20th Oct. 1802 to 17th Aug. 1803, drawn by A. Sloane, Consul at Rome, for Service of Emigrants
1,024
14
5
Bills of Ex. 15th Feb. 1802 to 2d July, 1803, drawn by Maj. Gen. J. Despard, Pres. of Cape Breton, for hire of a Vessel, the Sec.'s Salary, and Stationery
711
5
0
Bills of Ex. 14th Oct. 1802 to 24th July, 1803, drawn by Maj. Gen. G. Nugent, Lt. Gov. of Jamaica, for Allowance of Barracks, Staff, and other mil. Exp.
95,005
9
4
Bills of Ex. 14th Nov. 1802 to 14th June, 1803, drawn by Ed. Lavington, Lt. Gov. of the Leeward Islands, for hire of a Schooner, Sec.'s Salary, and Stationery
851
0
0
Bills of Ex.17th Aug, 1802 to 30th Sept. 1803, drawn by Sir J. Went-
1145
£
s.
d.
worth, Bart. L. Gov. of Nova Sbotia, for Nova Scotia Regt.
1,066
7
9.
Do. 8th June 1803 to 17th Sept. following, drawn by Adm. J. Gambier, Com. in Chief at Newfoundland, for Pub. Services
990
1
7
Do. 26th Feb. to 25th May 1803, drawn by Hon. A. Paget, Envoy at Vienna for Relief of Corsican Emigrants residing in the Austrian Dominions
463
5
4
Do 1st Dec. 1802 to 31st March 1803, drawn by J. Danelon, V. Consul at Trieste, tor Service of Emigrants
135
15
0
Do. 1st Feb. to 31st May 1802, drawn by the Hon. F. North, Gov. of Ceylon for Pub. Services
40,636
0
0
Do. 15th Sept. 1802, drawn by H. R. H. Edw. Duke of Kent, Gov. of Gibraltar, for Repairs to barracks, &c.
1,500
0
0
Do. 22d Oct. 1802 to 20th July 1803, drawn by Ld. Seaforth, Gov. of Barbadocs, for Sec. Salary, Stationery, and Expenses attending Prosecution of the Pirates of Ship Friendship
1,500
2
5
Do. 19th Oct. 1802 to 19th July 1803,drawn by WAV. Bentinck, Gov. of St. Vincent, for Sec. Salary, Stationery, and Hire of a Vessel
242
3
3
Do. 13th Nov. 1802 to 31st Oct. 1803, drawn by Ld. R. S. Fitzgerald, Minister at Lisbon, for Service of Emigrants
1,738
7
10
Do. 23d Dec. 1802 to 9th Sept. 1803, drawn by Sir A. J. Ball, Bart. Gov. of Malta, for Purchase of Corn for Use of that Island
31,017
16
1
Do. 14th March to 2d July 1803, drawn by J. L. Panter, Sec. to the W. India Commission of Inquiry, for the Exp. of the Commission
5,630
0
0
Bill dated 3d May 1803, drawn by W. A'Court, Envoy at Naples, for Service of Fr. and Corsican Emigrants
2,000
0
0
Bills of Ex. 6th June to 5th Sept. 1803, drawn by H. Tuker, Pies. of Bermuda, for Mil. Exp. of that Colony
2,210
0
0
Do. 2d Nov. 1796, drawn by V. Jones, Com. Gen. at the Windward and Leeward Islands, for Ext. Exp. of Troops
500
0
0
Do. 29th Aug. 1803, drawn by Sir T. Trigge, K.B. Lt. Gov. of Gibraltar, for Pub. Services
600
0
0
Do. 20th April to 30th July 1803, drawn by Col. T. Barrow, Superintend, at Honduras, for Salary of himself, Sec. and Contingencies
410
13
5
Do. 13th March 1803, drawn by Gol. C. Craufurd, on Account of Condé Army, &c.
2,529
16
0
Do. 20th Oct. 1803, drawn by Col. R. Craufurd
1,095
16
10
Bill, 5th Sept. 1803, drawn by H.
1146
£.
s.
d.
Elliot, Minister at Naples, for Service of Fr. and Corsican Emigrants
2,000
0.
0.
Bills of Ex. 31st Dec. 1800 to 30th June 1802, drawn by J. Glasfurd, acting Com. Gen. in the Windward and Leeward Islands, for Provisions, Stores, and other Ext. Exp. of Forces there
126,723
7
9
Do. 30th June 1802 to 31st March 1803, drawn by H. R. H. the Duke of Kent, Gov. of Gibraltar, for sundry special Contingent Services of that Garrison
17,468
9
1
Do. 30th June 1803, drawn by Sir T. Trigg, L. Gov. of Dito, for Ditto
5,468
4
2
Do. 7th April 1802 to 1st Feb. 1803, drawn by the Dep. Paymaster at the Cape of G. Hope, for Contingent and Ext. Exp. of Forces in that Colony
62,544
7
10
Do. 26th April to 24th May 1803, drawn by the Acting Dep. Paymaster in the Province of N. Brunswick, for Ext. Exp. of Forces in that Province
2,000
0
0
Cash paid by the Dep. Paymaster in Canada, for Ext. Exp. of Army in that Province, for 3 Qrs., to 24th June, 1803.
52,895
15
0
Do. by the Acting Dep. Paymaster in N. Scotia, for the Ext. Exp. of Army in that Province, for one Year, to 24th Sept. 1803
38,556
16
5
May 28.—Messrs. Harman and Co. to be remitted to Russia, in full Satisfaction and Discharge of ail Sums due under the several Treaties entered into with his Imp. Maj. the Emp. of Russia
63,000
0
0
Deduct Cash received of Messrs. S. Thornton and Co. on Acct. of Representatives of Cornwall Smalley, Esq. being Balance of Acct. of Russian and Austrian Subsidy
11,940
17
3
51,059
2
9
27.—G. Best, Esq. in Reimbursement of Sums advanced by Hanoverian Gov. in 1797, 8, 9, 1800, and 1801, for Pensions to Invalids of Electoral Troops, late in the Pay of G. Britain
30,288
0
0
1802. Dec. 30.—Do. for Rations and Portions for Augmentation to Hanoverian Troops in Pay of G. Britain. from 1st Feb. 1794 to the Day of their March from Hanover
3,736
13
6
1803. Jan, 6.—Sundry Officers, for Value of their Horses delivered over to Gov. at Lisbon, upon their Embarkation for Egypt, in 1800
358
1
0
22.—Lt, Col. Whetham, as an Indemnification for Charges he incurred, and Losses sustained, in making Preparations to enable him to take Possession of the Gov. of the Island of Curaçoa
3,000
0
0
28.—Sundry Officers sent on a special Mission to the Domi-
1147
£.
s.
d.
nions of the Grand Signior, for their travelling Expenses from thence to England
960
6
0.
29.—Ensign G. Wilkinson, 35th Foot, for Cure of a Wound received in Action in Holland
13
9
0
Feb. 2.—G. Knox, Esq. Exec, of Maj.-Gen. Knox, for Exp. incurred by him for his Outfit on his Appointment as Lt, Gov. of Jamaica
1,000
0
0
3.—Lt. Col. F. A. Wctherall, for Exp. attending Cure of his Wounds, and for his Passage from the West-Indies
66
3
0
4.—Capt. J. M3ister, of the 2d Bat. of the 20th Foot, for Exp. attending Cure of a Wound received in Holland
87
3
0
5.—Gen. O'Hara, for ext. contingent Exp. of Regts. at Gibraltar, from ill July to 31ft Dec. 1801
27
9
8
26.—Representatives of Sir Ad. Campbell, for Balance of his Acct. as Lt. Gov. and Com. in Chief of Jamaica
46
4
0
March 4.—Lord Minto, to reimburse like Sum paid by him to Corsican Emigrants, between 27th Dec. 1800, and 22d Oct. 1801
971
1
0
18.—Mr. J. T. Evans, for Exp. in landing and storing Provisions from Transports in Minorca, &c.
29
3
0
24.—Lt. Col. J. A. Schalch, of the Royal Artillery, for undrawn Rations while serving at Goree
206
16
0
28,—W. Huskisson, Esq. for certain Supplies of Clothing, and other Requisites, for Native Troops in Ceylon, and sundry Articles for Pub. Service, and for Advances to Officers going out
3,130
17
11
30.—W. Chinnery, Esq. for Amt. of Int. allowed on Balance of Acct. of Lt. Col. H. Rudyerd, as commanding Engineer in Canada, and for Part of a Surcharge in his said Acct.
346
5
4
April 1.—To discharge a Bill of Ex. drawn by Agent for Packets at Barbadoes, upon the Postmaster-General, for hire of a Brig employed by him on a special Service, by Directions of the Sec. of State
1,000
0
0
4.—M. Setaro, Esq. late Portugueze Com. Gen., acting with the Brit. Auxil. Army in Portugal; as an Indemnification for actual Loss sustained by him, in supplying the Brit. Army m Portugal with Bread and Bailey
9,618
2
7
6.—Mess. Ommaney and Druce, to be distributed among the Officers and Crews of Squadron that captured the Island of Goree, being the Amount of Provisions, Stores, &c. captured in said Island, and applied to Use of Forces in Garrison
5,933
15
0
1148
£.
s.
d.
25.—Comte de Damas for Levy Money, Clothing, and other Contingent Disbursements, on Acct. of Infantry of late Corps de Damas, employed in Condé Army
3,010
16
0
May 4.—Lt. Gen. Fox, for Equipage Money, on his Appointment as Gen. and Commander of Forces in the Mediterranean
1,000
0
0
Col. W. Hutchinson of 49th Foot, for Exp. attending Cure of a Wound received in Holland
22
1
0
5.—Mr. J. Miller, for Detention on Public Service, during the Time the Army was in Egypt
105
6
0
13.—Lt. W. Mackenzie, late of 4^d Foot, and Storekeeper in the Qr. Master Gen.'s Department in the Mediterranean, for Exp. in landing and embarking Stores, &c.
65
11
0
June 2.—F. N. Rossi, to enable him to proceed to Ceylon to join the Malay Corps
155
6
0
6.—W. Huskisson, Esq. for Supplies of Clothing and other Requisites for Native Troops in Ceylon, and sundry Articles for Pub. Service, and for Advances to Officers going out
2,921
13
11
8.—Maj. W. Grey, of 17th Foot, for Cure of a Wound received in Action in Holland
88
18
9
Lt. Col. Graham, of 27th Foot, for do.
59
18
0
14.—Mr. P. Ferick, for Rations due and undrawn by him, between May 1779 and Dec. 1783, while serving as Surgeon at Goree
383
17
0
23.—Mr. T. P. Courtenay, for Stationery delivered for Public Service at Canada
557
0
0
25—Mrs. T. Grant, Widow of the late Lt. Col. J. Grant, of 46th Foot, as a Remuneration for Services rendered by her late Husband, as Brit. Agent at St. Domingo
1,500
0
0
July 9.—Maj. Gen. Wilford, for Sabres delivered into his Majesty's Stores, and to a Provincial Corps in St. Domingo, and replaced to York Hussars
316
14
0
26.—P. F. Thorne, Esq. for Balance of his Account as Maj. Commandant of Islands of St. Pierre and Miquelon, between 191b Nov. 1793, and Sept. 1794
8
7
11
Aug. 19.—Lt. Col. Turner, for Exp. in removing certain Articles taken from the French at Alexandria
300
0
0
C. Rooke, Esq. for bringing home Dispatches from Major General Stuart in Egypt
320
6
0
26.—Capt. J. L. Weir, for bringing Dispatches containing Intel, of Capture of St. Lucia
500
0
0
Mr. W. Webb, for repairing a House in St. Lucia for Use of sick Prisoners at War
355
6
0
Sept. 9.—Representatives of Lt.
1149
£.
s.
d.
Col. Irving, for a Surcharge in his Account as Dep. Qr. Master Gen. at Quebec, from 1760 to 1765
203
6
0
15.—W. Merry, Esq. for his Majesty's Proportion of 1,280¼ Chald. of Coals deliv. at Gibraltar for the Use of Garrison
1,984
7
9
24.—Capt F. Millar, late Barrack Master at Grenada, for Disburs. incurred in Barrack Matter General's Department
720
16
8
26.— Gen. W. Dalrymple, for Balance of his Account as Quarter Master Gen. in America, from 1ft April 1780 to 30th June 1782.
1,383
15
3
Oct. 10.—Capt. E. A. Draper, for bringing Dispatches containing Intel. of Capture of Tobago
500
0
0
Nov. 1.—Messrs. Ommaney and Druce, to be paid over to Sir C. Hamilton, late Com. of Ship Melpomene, and to Officers and Crew thereof, as an Allowance for the Petit Courier, French Schooner, and her Stores, captured by them at Goree in i800, and sold for Use of Garrison in that Island
595
8
1
7.—Mrs. M. Watts, Widow of Cap. Watts, of Ship Osprey, for a Boat deliv. by her late Husband to Col. Frazer in 1800, for Use of Garrison at Goree
20
15
0
Dec. 3.—Maj. Gen. Wemyss, for Exp. on Passage of himself and Suire to the Island of Ceylon
605
6
0
Sir J. Craig, for Equipage Money, on proceeding to take Command of the Cape of G. Hope
500
0
0
Col. J. Abercromby, for bringing Intelligence of Surrender of Alexandria
500
0
0
5.—W. Walker, Esq. to pay a Bill remaining due on his Contingent Account as Commissary at the Island of St. Vincent
255
6
0
12.—W. Merry, Esq. for his Majesty's Proportion of 903½ Chal. of Coals, deliv. at Gibraltar for Use of Garrison
1,400
8
6
Do. for additional Duties and Freight of 1,280¼ Chal. of Coals delivered at do.
956
8
3
22.—Do. for additional do. of 903½ Chal. of do. deliv. at do.
720
13
10
Jan. 4.—Pay of sundry Gen. and Staff Officers, and Officers of Hospital at home, in Years 1800 and 1801
6,598
1
0
5.—Dr. J. Phelan, for 122 days Pay as Physician in Gt. Britain, to 24th Dec. 1801
115
11
3
3.—Pay of sundry Gen. and Staff Officers at home, for various Periods
881
8
5
22.—Count de Meuron, for 1 Qrs. Subsidy to 25th Sept. 1802, for continuing his Corps in his Majesty's Service
750
0
0
Sir W. Fawcett, K. B. for 182 Days additional Pay as late Adj. Gen., to 24th June 1802
689
12
1
1150
£.
s.
d.
25.—J. B. Clarke, for Pay as Assistant Commis. at Cape Breton, from 26th Aug. 1801 to 26d May 1802
160
10
0
Mr. J. Clarke, for 319 Days Pay as Assist. Commis. in N. America, to 18th Aug. 1802
239
5
0
26.—Sundry Persons sent on special Service to Constantinople, for their Ext. Pay, from 28th Nov. 1801 to 21st Oct. 1802, the Termination of the Service
2,003
18
0
28.—Capt. Fletcher and Mr. H. P. Wightman, who were on the above Service, for an additional Allowance
474
11
0
Feb. 2.— Gen. D. Dundas for 125 Days additional Pay as Qr. Master Gen. to 28th April 1802.
473
12
7
Do. for 57 Days Do. as Qr. Master Gen. to 24th June 1802
323
19
3
3.—Representatives of late J. Rush, Esq. for 365 Days Add. Pay as Inspector of Regimental Hospitals, to 24th Dec. 1801
518
12
6
4.—Col. J. Burnet, Mil. Superintendant of Hospitals, for Pay of himself and Resident Superintendants under his Command, from 25th June to 24th Dec. 1801
390
9
0
5.—Sundry Persons for half Pay for various Periods, for their late Services on the Rivers and Lakes in Canada
131
19
6
7.—Pay of sundry Gen. and Staff Officers, for several Periods
401
12
6
8.—Lieut. R. Griffith, for forwarding Deserters to and from Ireland, from 25th Dec. 1800 to 24th Dec. 1801
53
3
0
T. he Breton for 243 Days Pay as Maj. of Brigade in Jersey, to 14th Aug 1799
115
1
10
D. of Richmond, for Pay of a Supernum. Qr. Master of Royal Reg. of Horse Guards, from 25th Dec. 1800 to 24th Dec. 1801
146
18
10
9.—Mr. R. Stewart, for 61 Days pay as Dep. Purveyor of Hospitals to the Forces under Sir R. Abercromby, to 24th Dec. 1800
28
17
9
17.—Capt. S. Brown, for 152 days Pay as Assist. Qr. Master in the Mediterranean, to 24th Oct. 1801
71
19
10
28.—F. Hutchinson, for 365 Days Pay as Assistant Commis. in America, to 29th Oct. 1802
182
10
0
March 1.—Pay of sundry Gen. and Staff Officers and Officers of the Hospital, in 1800 and 1801
970
12
4
Do. Do. in i800 and 1802
793
11
1
Sundry Persons for Half Pay, for various Periods, for their Services on the Rivers and Lakes in Canada
476
1
6
2.—D. of Yorke, for Add. Pay of his Public Secy. and for Pay of a Private Secy. from 25th Dee. 1799 to 24th Dec. 1800
1,210
2
6
Do. for Do. from 25th Dec. 1800 to 24th Dec. 1801
1,210
2
6
Col. T. Hislop, for Pay as Brig. Gen. for the Period of his holding the Command of Forces at
1151
£.
s.
d.
Demerara, from 24th April 1796 to 24th Dec. 1801
2,941
4
10
D. of York, for Pay of certain Commissioned and Warrant Officers attached to Coldstream Regf. of Foot Guards in 1801
702
12
6
3.—Mr. A. M. Brown, for 149 Days Pay as late Barrack Master Gen. of St. Vincent, to 17th Feb. 1803
45
9
0
4.—Lt. Gen. Carleton, for Half a Year's Allowance as Gov. of Province of N. Brunswick, to 24th Dec. 1801
250
0
0
A. Howe, for 226 Days Pay as Commis. in Prince Edward's Island, to 24th Sept. 1802
169
10
0
J. B. Butler, for 400 Days Pay, as Dep. Com. Gen. in N. America, to 18th May 1802
200
0
0
7.—Pay of certain Staff Officers and Officers of the Hospitals serving at home, for several Periods, to 24th June 1802
3,583
13
8
9.—Pay of several Gen. and Staff Officers, for various Periods
277
6
0
14.—M. C. Mason, for 947 Days Pay as Commis. of Accounts to Forces formerly employed on the Continent, to 5th Feb. 1800
1,794
2
2
15.—Col. H. Calvert, for 182 days addit. Pay as Adj. Gen. to 24th June 1802
431
0
0
Representatives of Sir C. Stuart, for 121 Days personal Pay as Com. in Chief in the Mediterranean, to 24th April 1800
1,146
3
8
18.—Col. H. Calvert, Adj. Gen. for 365 Pays Pay of an Assistant, to 24th Dec. 1801
172
17
6
Col. J. Stewart, for 117 Days Pay as Brig. Gen. at Gibraltar, to 24th June 1800
166
4
10
Pay of sundry Assistant Qr. Masters Gen. in the Mediterranean, in 1800 and 1801
219
5
8
22.—D. of Gloucester, for Pay of certain commissioned and warrant Officers attached to 1st Reg. of Foot Guards, but not borne on Estab., from 25th Dec. 1800 to the 24th Dec. 1801
874
9
7
April 22.—77 Days Allowance to Sir J. Dick, late one of the Comptrollers of Accounts of the Army, to 24th Dec. 1802
210
19
3
F. Hutchinson, for additional Pay as Assist. Commis. of Forces in N. America, from 25th July 1801 to 29th Oct. 1802
120
10
0
26.—T. Keate, Esq. for 365 Days addit. Fay as Surgeon Gen. to 24th Dec. 1802
518
12
6
27.—Ct.de Meuron, for 1 Qarter's Subsidy, to 25th Dec. 1802, for continuing his Corps in His Maj. Service
750
0
0
29.—Col. J. L. Gower, for 547 Days Pay as Aid-de-Camp to his Majesty, to 24th June 1802
283
18
4
May 4.—Maj. Hudson Lowe, for Pay and Allowances, as Commandant of fate Corsican Rangers, from 5th July 1800 to 24th Dec. 1802, and to Assist.
1152
£.
s.
d.
Surgeon S. W. Robins, of the same Corps
876
8
3
7.—D. Fraser, late Captain in Queen's American Rangers, for 1 Year's Allowance, to 31ft Dec. 1801, for his long Services
40
0
0
7.—D. Fraser, late Captain in Queen's American Rangers, for 1 Year's Allowance, to 31ft Dec. 1803, for his long Services
40
0
0
10.—Lt. Col. Paterson, for his extra Allowance, as Assist. Qr. Master Gen. from 25th Dec. 1801 to 24th Dec. 1802
86
8
9
12.—Maj. Gen. J. Stewart, for Pay on the Staff at Gibraltar for 352 Days, to 11th Dec. 1801
826
19
2
14.—Late Mr. H. Lowe, for 24 Days Pay, as Assist. Inspector of Hospitals at Gibraltar, to 10th Oct. 1801
22
14
8
17.—Pay of sundry Gen. and Staff Officers, and Officers of the Hospitals, for several Periods, to 24th Dec. 1802
3,617
6
8
17.—Pay of sundry Gen. and Staff Officers, and Officers of the Hospitals, in several Years
639
12
8
Pay of sundry Assistant Surgeons of 1st and 2d Regiments of Foot Guards, when employed on Foreign Service in 1799
83
17
6
D. of York, for add. Pay of Assist. Surgeons of Coldstream Regt. of Ft. Guards, while employed on Foreign Service
111
2
6
Sir W. Fawcett, for Pay and add. Pay, as late Adj. Gen. for 183 Days, to 14th Dec. 1802
866
14
10
25.—Capt. R. Plampin, for 59 Days Pay as Chief Aid-de-Camp to Adm. Goodall, when Gov. of Toulon, to 30th Oct. 1793
29
10
0
26.—Lt. Col. Fraser, to complete his Pay as Command, of Island of Gorce, from 28th Aug. 1800 to 15th Oct. 1802
872
0
0
R. White for ½ a Year's Allowance as late Agent for the Honduras District, to 1st April, 1803
75
0
0
28.—Lt. Col. Losack, for 182 Days Pay, as Brig. Maj. Gen. at home, to 24th June, 1798
129
6
0
June 2.—Representatives of John Carmody, for his Pay for 1 Year and 291 Days, as Dep. Com. Gen. to Forces in the W. Indies, to 11th Oct. 1800
328
0
0
6.—Mr.A. Robertson, for 91 Days Pay as Dep. Inspector of Hospitals at Jamaica, to 24th August 1803
129
5
11
9.—Pay of several Staff Officers, and Officers of the Hospitals, for sundry Periods in 1800 and 1802
87
2
8
P. Marignac, for Pay as Apothecary to Forces in Portugal for 30 Days in 1797, and for 122 Days in 1802
71
19
10
17.—F. Knight, Esq. for 363 Days add. Pay, as Inspector of Reg. Hospitals, to 24th Dec. 1802
515
15
7
18.—Gen.D.Dundas, for 365 Days Pay of his two Assistants, as Qr. Mr. Gen. to 24th Dec. 1802
72
17
6
22.—Sir L. Pepys, for 365 Days add. Pay, as Physician Gen. to 24th Dep. 1802
518
12
6
24.—Dr. J. Franck, for 120 Days
1153
£.
s.
d.
Pay, as Inspector of Hospitals in Egypt, to 24th June, 1802
227
6
10
July 25.—Mr. A. M. Brown, for 149 Days Pay, as late Barrack Master Gen. of St. Vincent, to 16th July, 1803
45
9
0
28.—Pay of Supernum. Non-com. Officers and Privates of 3d Foot Guards, from 25th Dec. 1802 to 24th March, 1803
780
0
0
Aug. 3.—Mr. G. P. Toosy, for 122 Days Pay, as Apothecary to the Forces, to 24th Oct. 1803
57
15
8
8.—Sir J. Fitzpatrick, for 183 Days Pay, as Inspector of Health in G. Britain, to 24th Dec. 1802
346
13
11
17.—W. Huskisson, Esq. to be advanced to sundry Officers of Malay Regts. at Ceylon, for 6 Months Pay, to enable them to join their Regiments
2,000
0
0
22.—M. Petrie, Esq. for 304 Days add. Pay, as Commis. of Accounts to Army of Portugal and Corsica, to 24th June, 1803
608
0
0
25.—Col. C. W. Este, for 310 Days addt. Pay, as Sec. to late Sir J. Vaughan and Maj. Gen. Irving in the W. Indies, to 18th March 1796
77
10
0
30.—Sir D. Dundas, for 183 Days add. Pay, as Qr. M. Gen. to 24th Dec. 1802
1,040
1
10
Sep. 2.—Mr. W. R. Morel, for 120 Days Pay, as Surgeon, to 24th June, 1802
56
16
8
10.—Dr. E. Somers, for 92 Days Pay, as Physician to Forces at the Cape of G. Hope, to 12th July, 1803
87
2
11
15.—Mr. M. Petrie, for 304 Days Pay, as Commis. of Accounts to Forces in Portugal, to 24th June, 1803
575
18
8
22.—Sir C Holloway, who was employed on a special Mission in Egypt, for ½ a Year's Allowance for his Services, to 5th July, 1803
215
12
0
26.—Mess. Sewell and Chandler, Execrs. of late N. Whitworth, for ½ Pay and full Pay, as Assistant and Dep. Comm. in the Mediterranean, &c. for various Periods
220
10
0
27.— Lt. Col. Moore, for ½ a Year's Allowance to 24th Sept. 1802, for his long Services
75
0
0
27.— Lt. Col. Moore, for ½ a Year's Allowance to 24th March, 1803, for his long Services
75
0
0
28.—T. Roope, for 340 Days Pay, as Assist. Comm. in Leeward Islands, to 31st Aug. 1803
85
0
0
Lt. Col. M. Van, Coehorn for 426 Days Pay, as Command. of Royal Dutch Battalion in his Maj.'s Service at Surinam, to 24th Dec. 1802
339
0
6
J. B. Clarke, for Pay as Assist. Commis. at Cape Breton, from 23d May, 1802 to 1st April, 1803
235
10
0
Oct. 26.—Mr. R. Lewis, for 157 Days Pay as Apothecary to
1154
£.
s.
d.
Forces at Gibraltar, to 24th Jan.1804
64
17
9
31.—Ct. de Mcuron, for ½ a Year's Subsidy to 25th June, 1803, for continuing his Corps in his Majesty's Service
1,500
0
0
Nov. 1.—E. Home, Esq. for 365 Days Pay as Surgeon to the Forces, 10 14th Dec. 1802
172
17
6
4.—Mr.W. Cathcart, for 396 Days Pay as Dep. Purveyor, to 24th Jan. 1804
187
11
1
7.—Sir W. Fawcett, for 182 Days Pay, and add. Pay as late Adj. Gen. to 24th June, 1803
862
0
1
Mr. A. Jaffray, for 2 Years and 190 Days Pay, as Dep. Commis. Gen. in the W. Indies, to 25th June, 1799
460
0
0
10.—Mr. J. Ramsay, for Difference between Pay of a Regimental Surgeon and a Staff Surgeon, from 6th Nov. 1793 to 8th April, 1794
43
15
3
Dec. 2.—Pay of sundry Officers of Garrison of Minorca, for various Periods in 1801 and 1802
730
5
10
Pay of sundry Assistant Qr. Master Gens. for 92 Days, to 24th June, 1803
87
2
10
3.— Lt. Col. Burnett, Mil. Superintend, of Hospitals, for Pay of himself and Resident Superintendents under his Command, from 25th Dec. 1801 to 24th June, 1802
387
18
0
3.— Lt. Col. Burnett, Mil. Superintend, of Hospitals, for Pay of himself and Resident Superintendents under his Command, from 25th June to 24th Dec. 1802
390
0
9
Pay of sundry Gen. and Staff Officers serving at Gibraltar, for various Periods
1,246
11
10
6.—Mr. C. Lind, for 377 Days as Assist. Inspect. of Hospitals, to 25th May, 1803
357
2
4
D. of Richmond, for Pay of a Supernum. Qr. Master of Royal Regt. of Horse Guards, from 25th Dec. 1801 to 24th June, 1802
73
5
6
7.—T.Young, for 182 Days Pay as Inspector of Hospitals, to 24th June, 1803
517
4
0
Sundry Persons, for 92 Days Pay as Medical Officers, to 24th Sept. 1802
88
1
10
T. Ross, for 62 Days Pay as Apothecary in the Mediterranean, to 24th Sept. 1802
29
7
3
Sundry Persons, for Pay as Officers of the Hospitals, for various Periods
450
8
0
8.—Pay of sundry Staff Officers and Officers of the Hospital in America, from 25th June to 24th Dec. 1802
909
7
2
G. Brinley, for 403 Days add. Pay as Commis. Gen. in America, to a 1st July, 1803
604
10
0
9.—Dr. Mc. Neill, for Pay as Officers of Hospitals, for sundry Periods
46
8
3
Sir D. Dundas, for 108 Days add. Pay as Qr. Master Gen. to 11th April, 1803
613
16
6
1155
£.
s.
d.
Sir D. Dundas, for 90 Days Pay of two Assistants, to 24th March, 1804
42
12
6
J. B. Butler, for 220 Days add. Pay as Dep. Commis. Gen. in North America, to 24th Dec. 1802
110
0
0
10.—Col. J. Burnet, Mil. Superintend, of Hospitals, for Pay of himself and resident Superintendants, from 25th Dec. 1802 to 24th June, 1803
387
18
0
Pay of sundry Hospital Officers Abroad, for various Periods
173
6
10
12.—Pay of sundry Staff Officers, for various Periods
210
5
9
12.—Pay of sundry Gen. Officers in Great Britain, for several Periods
2,024
5
3
D. of York, for add. Pay of his Pub. Sec. and for Pay of his Priv. Sec. from 25th Dec. 1801 to 24th Dec. 1802
1,210
2
6
Col. H. Calvert, for 183 Days add. Pay, as Adj. Gen. to 24th Dec. 1802
433
7
10
Col. H. Calvert, for 182 Days add. Pay, as Adj. Gen. to 24th June, 1803
431
0
0
Col. H. Calvert, for 365 Days Pay of an Assist. to 24th Dec. 1802
172
17
6
H. Hulton, for 183 Days Pay, as Major of Brigade in G. Britain, to 24th Dec. 1802
86
13
5
Col. Hislop, to complete his Pay for 365 Days, to 24th Dec. 1802, as a Brig. Gen.
518
12
6
14.—Maj. R. Hope, who was employed on a Mil. Mission in Egypt, for ½ a Year's Allowance, to 5th July, 1803
125
0
0
F. Knight, Esq. for 182 Days add. Pay, as Inspector of Regt. Hospitals, to 24th June, 1803
258
12
0
Sundry Persons, for ½ Pay for their Services on the Rivers and Lakes in Canada, for various Periods
211
7
6
Lt. Griffith, for superintending the Service of forwarding Deserters to and from Ireland, from 35th Dec. 1801 to 24th Dec. 1802
53
3
0
16.—Mr. R. While, for ½ a Year's Allowance for his Services, as late Agent for the Honduras District, to 1st Oct. 1803
75
0
0
Mr. A. Baillie, for 123 Days Pay, as Assist. Inspect, of Hospitals in the Mediterranean, to 34th Sept. 1802
116
10
3
21.—Col. Dirom, for Pay of an Assist as Dep. Qr. Master Gen. in N. Britain, from 25th Dec. 1801 to 34th May, 1802
35
14
9
Mess Trotter, for providing Hospital Bedding, Camp Necessaries, Knapsacks, Stores, &c. for use of the Forces
130,734
4
10
Bât, Baggage and Forage for sundry Corps of Regulars and Militia, and Forage to several Gen. and Staff Officers, and Officers of the Hospitals attending the Forces
138,799
11
11
Jan. 13.—J. Geddes, Esq. for Sums expended by him for Use of Forces in N. Britain, in 1801
9,272
11
9
14.—Bill of Ex. drawn by the R. Bank of Scotland for the Ex-
1156
£.
s.
d.
change on the Difference between the Amt. of Bills drawn in Favour of the Rec. Gen. of the Land Tax in Scotland, and the Amt, of Bills drawn for the Use of the Troops there, from 45th Dec. 1801 to 24th Dec. 1802, and for an Allowance to said Bank for providing Specie for Troops in Scotland for said Period
3,482
14
11
Col. A. Mackay, for his contingent Exp. as Dep. Adj. Gen. in N. Britain, from 25th June to 24th Dec. 1801
78
3
0
Lt. Col. A. Dirom for his contingent Exp. as Dep. Qr. Master Gen. in N. Britain, from 25th June to 24th Dec. 1801
78
3
0
March 29—Lt. Col. A. Dirom for sundry Expenses incurred by him as from 25th June to 24th for the Year 1801
215
11
6
April 4.—Representatives of John Powell, Esq. for Balance of an Acct. of Monies advanced for Out-Pensioners in N. Britain, ordered for Garrison in 1782
766
7
0
May 18.—W. Fettes, Esq. on Acct. of the extra Exp. of Oatmeal, &c. furnished to several Garrisons in N. Britain in 1802
954
19
11
Aug. 2.—J. Geddes, for Sums expended by him for Use of Forces in N. Britain in 1802
2,195
4
2
Dec. 21.—Col. Dirom, for his contingent Disbursements, as Dep. Qr. Master Gen. in N. Britain, from 25th Dec. 1801 to 24th June, 1802
78
3
0
Col. Mackay, for his contingent Disburs. as Dep. Adj. Gen. in N. Britain, from 25th Dec. 1801 to 24th June, 1802
78
3
0
Col. Mackay, for his contingent Disburs. as Dep. Adj. Gen. in N. Britain, from 25th June to 24th Dec. 1802
78
3
0
Sundry Articles of Clothing, Accoutrements, and Necessaries, furnished for Use of Forces, and to Supernumerary Men, and Augmentations to divers Corps
20,720
11
4
To make good Deficiencies on Assignments of Off-reckonings of sundry Corps that were reduced or disbanded, at various Periods
57,048
4
3
Great Coats supplied to sundry Corps
56,653
7
5
Deduct Cash stopped from the Off-reckonings of several Corps of Infantry, on Assignments, commencing subsequent to 25th Dec. 1798, and ending 24th Dec. 1801, pursuant to his Maj.'s Warrant of 23d April, 1801
18,922
8
10
37,729
18
7
1802. Dec. 29.—Mr. J. Buffa, as a Remuneration for long Services, as Physician to Forces on Foreign Service, and the Losses sustained when taken Prisoner on his Passage from Halifax
187
6
0
1157
£.
s.
d.
1803. Jan. 22.—Mr. Donaldson, to be paid over to Barnffshire, Reg. of Fencibles, for Loss sustained by Exch. on passing Bills for Pay at Gibraltar, between 23d June, 1800 and 25th Oct. 1801
1,086
6
3
26.—Mr. J. Perry, Paymaster of late 2d Argyllshire Fencibles, to be distributed among the Officers of said Regt. Loss by Exch. at Gibraltar
1,094
11
3
Mr. S. M. Jonas, for Losses sustained by him in supplying Horses and sundry Articles for Use of Army on its Retreat from Dunkirk in 1793
651
4
2
27.—Mr R. Dewar, Assist. Surg. of 41st Ft for Loss of Baggage, &c. taken by the Enemy at St. Vincene's in 1796
60
17
0
Feb. 1.—Lt. P. Power of Lancashire Volunteers, for Loss of Baggage, on Passage from Liverpool to Dublin
31
1
0
3.—Lt. Hubert de Salve, of 1st Bat. of 60th Ft. for Losses by the Wreck of ship King George in the West Indies
31
1
0
Maj. A. Stewart, of 1st Bat. of 1st Ft. for Losses at the Evacuation of Toulon
63
3
0
4.—Gen. Maitland, for replacing sundry Accoutrements of 49th Regt. of Ft. lost on Service at St. Domingo
183
4
9
4.—Gen. Maitland, for replacing sundry Accoutrements of 49th Regt. lost by Wreck of Denton Transport off Guernsey
129
3
0
4.—Gen. Maitland, for Looses of several Officers of Accoutrements Regt. by Wreck of Denton Transport off Guernsey Ship
42
11
0
Lt. Gen. Coates, for replacing sundry Accoutrements of 2d Regt. of Ft. lost by Wreck of Dutton East Indiaman
103
6
0
7.—Gen. Fletcher, for replacing Great Coats of 1st Bat. of 35th Ft. lost on Service in Holland
205
11
9
March 2.—Maj. Gen. Wilford, for replacing sundry Appointments of York Hussars, lost on Service at St Domingo
1,509
16
0
Lt. Gen. de Lancey, for replacing sundry Accoutrements and appointments of 17th Drag, delivered into His Maj.'s Stores, and to a Provincial Corps in St. Domingo
1,631
11
1
12.—Mess. Dickey, for replacing Great Coats, lost by Deserters from 1st Bat. of 52d Foot
29
18
0
16.—Lt. L. Spinluff, of 6th Drag. for Loss of a first Chatger, shot for the Glanders
48
6
0
May 3.—D. Flyn, Master of Sloop Three Friends, as a Compensation for Losses, in consequence of Proclam. of 26th Dec. 1792, directing a gen. Embargo on all Vessels bound to France
170
2
0
4.—Major. P. Bellew, to be paid to the Officers and Staff Serj. of 2d Bat. of 5th Regt. of Ft. for Loss on Bills of Exch.
1158
£.
s.
d.
drawn for their Pay and Allowances when at Gibraltar
1,060
19
8
13.—Lt. Col. G. Stewart of 35th Ft. for Loss of Baggage in Guadaloupe in 1794, when a Capt. in 33d Foot
41
9
8
17.—Maj. W. Grey, of 17th Ft. for Loss of Baggage and Camp Equipage in Holland in 1799
36
1
0
June 8.—Lt. Gen. Stevens, for replacing Accoutrements of 65th Ft. which were destroyed by Leakage on Board La Sensible, on Passage to Cape of G. Hope
65
12
8
17.—Mrs. A. Robinson, widow of Lt. R. N. Robinson of the Marines, for Loss of his Baggage at St. Lucia, when taken by the Enemy
65
6
0
25.— H. L. Frizell, late Capt. in the Prince of Wales's own Regt. of Fencibles, for Loss of Baggage on his Passage from Gibraltar
63
3
0
27.—W.Tail, late Lt. of the Loyal Irish Fencibles, for Loss of Baggage on his Passage to Jersey
26
1
0
28.—Mr. A. Jameson, late Surgeon to the Garrison of Fort La Malgue near Toulon, for Loss of Baggage on the Evacuation of that Place
13
13
0
30.—Mad. de Thiballier, as a Compensation of Losses sustained by her late Husband Col. F. de Thiballier, while Commandant of a Regt. of Infantry, in the Brit. Service at St. Evacuation of that Place mingo
456
1
0
July 2.—Representatives of Gen. Lascelles, for replacing sundry Articles of Appointments of 8th Drag. which were lost on Service at Cape of Good Hope
1,660
10
11
8.—Lt. C. Reynolds, late of 80th Ft. for Loss of a Horse killed by the Enemy on the Continent
19
19
0
9.—Mr. P. Grant, of 55th Ft. for Loss of pub. Money in Holland in 1799
129
15
3
Aug. 4—Ld. Kensington, for replacing Clothing and Accoutrements of Cambrian Fencibles, lost by Wreck of Weymouth Transport
706
3
1
Sep. 13.—Maj. Gen. Wemyss, for Losses sustained by him by the Rate of Exch. on his Pay, while Brig. Gen. on the Staff at Gibraltar
231
16
2
Oct. 20.—Mr. J. Stocker, for an Indemnification for Loss by Fire, in a Magazine provided by him for Stockland Volunteers
182
12
Nov. 7.—D. of Kent, for Loss of his Milit. Equipage, as late Com. in Chief in America, on board Francis Transport
2,000
Dec. 3.—Mr. I. Hamilton, Paymaster of 5th Ft. for Losses of Officers of said Regt. on Bills of Exch. drawn for their Pay, &c. at Gibraltar
700
Lt. Gen. H. Johnson, for Loss of
1159
£.
s.
d.
Baggage of sundry Officers of 81st Ft. by Wreck of Ship Determinée
345
5
0
10.—E. Mundel, late a Capt. in Nottingham Fencibles, for Loss of Baggage on Pasage from Ireland
83
3
0
12.—Lt. Gen. de Lancey, for replacing sundry Appointments of 17th Drag. which were taken by the Enemy on Passage to the West Indies
293
15
11
13.—Capt. Mac Pherson of 17th Ft. for Loss of 3 Horses in Holland
47
5
0
14.—Gen. Hall, for replacing the Colours of the 3d Regt. of Ft. which were lost on board Ponsborne East Indiaman
33
9
6
Mr. J. Window, to enable him to make such Payments for Hospitals, &c. as may be directed by the Sec. at War
30,000
0
0
Mr. G. Garnier, Apothecary Gen. for Medicines, Instruments, and Materials, delivered for Use of Forces
155,233
18
0
Contingent Exp. of Commander in Chiefs Office to Michaelmas 1503, on Account
4,000
0
0
Contingent Exp. of Adj. Gen.'s Office to Michaelmas 1803, on Account
1,000
0
0
June 8—Col. Wynyard, for his Contingent Exp. as Dep. Adj. Gen. from 25th Dec. 1800 to 24th Dec. 1801
156
6
0
Dec. 12.—Wynyard, for his Contingent Exp. as Dep. Adj. Gen. from 25th Dec. 1802 to 24th June 1803
78
3
0
Gen. Sir D. Dundas, for his Contintent Exp. as Qr. Mafter Gen. from 25th June 1801 to 24th Dec. 1802
702
12
0
12 Months Contingent Exp. of Qr. Mafter Gen.'s Office, to 24th Dec. 1803, on Account
480
0
0
6 Months Pay of Assistant Qr. Mafter Gens. in G. Britain, to 14th Dec. 1803, on Account
2,150
0
0
Contingent and Extr. Exp. of several Dep and Assistant Qr. Mafters Gen. for sundry Periods
950
3
9
Sundry Gen. Officers, &c. for Extra Exp. of themselves and other Officers under their Command, for House Rent. Forage, &c.
79,041
9
6
12 Months Contin. Allowances to Field Officers and Captains of Foot Guards, to 24th Jan. 1804
10,957
1
1
Contingent Exp. of 2 Regs. of Life Guards, from 25th Dec. 1799 to 24th Dec. 1800
2,032
6
0
Towards levy Money of sundry Augment, several Regs. of Foot Guards
4,666
10
0
W. Gorton, Esq. for providing a Table for Officers of Life and Foot Guards on Duty at St. James's, &c. from 25th March 1802 to 24th March 1803
9,291
16
0
Mr. Downes, for advertising Deserters in the Hue and Cry Police Gazette, from 10th July 1802 to 2d July 1803
429
16
5
1160
£.
s.
d.
Jan. 31—D. of Gloucester, for Rent of certain Apartments in the Horse Guards, customarily possessed by the 1ft Majors of the Foot Guards, converted into a Mil, Store, from 25th June 1793 to 24th Dec. 1799
659
9
0
Feb. 1.—W. Fisher, Esq. Rec. Gen. in Norfolk, to reimburse like Sum paid by him to Wives and Families of Men in Provisional Cavalry
28
8
4
5.—Mr. E. H. Sandys, Clerk of Lieutenancy of County of Kent for his Bill of Exp. for arranging Finns proposed by Ld. Grey in Case of Invasion
226
16
8
8.—D. E. Davy, Esq. Rec. Gen. for E. Division of County of Suffolk, to reimburse like Sum paid for Horses for Provis. Cavalry of said County, and for Relief of Families of Men serving in that Corps
2,825
16
9
O. R. Oakes, Esq. Rec. Gen. for W. Division of County, for Suffolk, to reimburse like Sum paid for Horses for Provis. Cavalry of said County, and for Relief of Families of Men serving in that Corps Services
2,381
9
0
10.—Mr. C. Mason, for Amount of Deductions for additional 12 Pence in the Pound made from his Pay as late Comm. of Accounts to Forces on the Continent, from 21ft June 1783 to 3d July 1787
294
14
0
11.—Lt. Gov. Singleton, for his Annual Allowance in lieu of Emoluments as Lieut. Gov. of Landguard Fort, to 24th Dec. 1801
63
3
0
Mar. 1.—Capt. D'Auvergne, Duke de Bouillon, for Table Money, and as a Remuneration of Exp. incurred when commanding a Division of armed Vessels at Jersey, from 1794 to 1802
2,345
15
0
2.—G. Aust, Esq. Commis. Gen. of Musters, for extra Exp. of new Arrangements made in his Office
325
14
4.—A. Lechmere, Esq. Reg. Gen. of County of Worcester, to reimburse like Sum, paid on Account of Horses for Provisional Cavalry of said County
196
3
0
5.—Col. H. Calvert, to be paid over to Mr. J. Walter, for Exp. of certain Regulations for Guidance of Regs. of Infantry
954
18
2
10.—L. Morse, Esq. for Printing and other Charges attending the Publication of the Army List for 1802
992
5
12.—Col. Yorke, for ½ yearly Allowance, in lieu of Emoluments to Dep. Lieut. and other Officers of the Tower, to 24th June 1802
212
4
0
15.—Sir W. Pitt, for ½-yearly Allowance, as Gov. of Portsmouth, in lieu of Emoluments, to 24th Dec. 1797
145
4
9
15.—Sir W. Pitt, for his yearly Allowance as Gov. of Portsmouth, in lieu of Emoluments, to 24th Dec. 1798
289
8
6
1161
£.
s.
d.
15.—Sir W. Pitt, for his yearly Allowance, as Gov. of Portsmouth, in lieu of Emoluments, to 24th Dec. 1799
289
8
6
15.—Sir W. Pitt, for his yearly Allowance, as Gov. of Portsmouth, in lieu of Emoluments, to 24th Dec. 1800
289
8
6
15.—Sir W. Pitt, for his yearly Allowance, as Gov. of Portsmouth, in lieu of Emoluments, to 24th Dec. 1801
289
8
6
Lt. Col. A. Hope, for his yearly Allowance, as Lt. Gov. of Edinburgh Castle, to 24th Dec. 1800
204
4
0
Lt. Col. A. Hope, for his yearly Allowance, as Lt. Gov. of Edinburgh Castle, to 24th Dec. 1801
204
4
0
Mess. Cox and Co. for Exp. of several Officers on the Removal of Depôt from Chatham to the Isle of Wight
253
4
1
18.—Ld. Mulgrave, for Hire of Ground for Encampments in Yorkshire, in 1799
177
14
0
22.—Mr. W.D. Adams, for Diff. between estimated Value of Ground he had purchased, and the Ovens he had erected at Guernsey, and the Sum for which they were sold
395
6
0
28.—J. White, Esq. Solic. of the Treasury, on Account of the Exec, of late Rt. Hon. R. Rigby, to replace certain Sums allowed by the Auditors in his Account, after the final Decia. thereof
12,347
8
2
April 6.—Messrs. Hunt and Co. for Damage they sustained by the Encampment of Forces at Netley in 1800
74
2
6
25.—W. Pollock, Esq. for Fees paid on the Investiture of Maj. Gen. Cradock with the Order of the Bath
427
14
8
May 14.—Mess. Bunney and Gold, for printing Heads of a Bill for amending and reducing into one Act the Laws relating to the Militia
43
1
0
20.—Rev. J. Hodgson, for 1 Year's Rent of the Minister's House in the Savoy, hired for Use of the Forces, to 24th Dec. 1802
42
2
0
23.—Representatives of J. Robinson, Esq. for Hire of Ground for Troops encamped at Harwich, from 1793 to 1799,, and for Damages, &c. sustained in consequence thereof
1,197
9
10
25.—T. Rice, Esq. Surveyor of the Guards, for Work done in Repairs of the Horse and Foot Guards, &c. for 1801
8,757
13
4
Mr. J. Bailey, for Damages sustained by him by Encampment of Forces at Harwich, in the Years 1793, 4, 5, and 6
305
5
0
June 8.— Lt. Gen. Hulse, for Hire of Ground for Encampment of Forces under his Command, in 1801
88
4
0
11.—O. R. Oakes, Esq. Rec. Gen. for W. Division of Suffolk, to reimburse like Sum paid for Horses supplied Provisional Cavalry
43
0
0
July 14.—Gov. of the Corporation of the Poor of the City of Bristol, for Exp. incurred for Passage, &c. of discharged Soldiers
1162
£.
s.
d.
and their Wives and Children from Bristol to Ireland
2,412
9
9
26.— L. Morse, Esq. for carrying on for 1 Year, to Midsummer 1803, a progressive List of the Commissions of all the Officers in the Army
103
3
0
Aug. 3.—Prince de Rohan, for all Claims against Gov. on Account of the Reg. which he raised for his Maj.'s Service, and for Losses which he thereby incurred
4,000
0
0
15.—Col. Yorke, for the ½-yearly Allowance to Dep. Lieut. and other Officers of the Tower, to 24th Dec. 1802, in lieu of Emoluments
212
4
0
23.—Mr. A. de Poggi, as a Reward and in Reimbursement of Exp. incurred by him in making several Models for Mil. Purposes
1,000
0
0
Sep. 19.—J. White, Esq. for Exp. of several Witnesses, in attending Trial of W. Hepburn, late Lt. Col. of the 31ft Foot, and J. M'Cumming, Capt. in said Reg.
643
9
8
Oct. 15.—Mr. Coleman, Veterinary Surgeon General, for travelling and other Exp. incurred by him
182
16
6
Messrs. Tatham and Egg, for making new Muskets, &c. to Pattern, and for their Trouble in attending for the Purpose of making Experiments therewith
32
12
11
Nov. 25.—L. Morse, Esq. for Charges attending Publication of the Army List for 1803
1,098
1
0
Dec. 3.—Maj. Gen. Hewitt, to be paid to sundry Staff Officers of Recruiting Diftriets, for Exp. incurred in removing from their several Stations in 1803
470
16
4
5.—Mrs. D. Caswell, Executrix of lace T. Caswell, Esq. formerly Dep. Paymaster Gen. towards Exp. incurred in making up Accounts of Mr. Rigby
2,000
0
0
A. Singleton, for his Ann. Allowance as Lt. Gov. of Landguard Port, to 24th Dec. 1802
63
3
0
23.—Captain S. Campbell, for Marches and Contingencies of his late Independent Company, from 24th Feb. to 24th Oct. 1782
64
15
2
24.— Mr. J. Quihampton, for Hire of Ground for Use of forces at Ashford
22
1
0
Extra Allowance to Troops on Account of High Price of Bread and Meat
105,488
0
0
1,765,092
0
3
Deduct
The Sum granted to his Majesty in the last Session of Parl. towards defraying the Ext. Exp. of the Army for the Year 1803
1,400,000
0
0
Cash rec. from Navy Board, being in Reimbursement of so much issued on Acc. of Foreign Corps, and applied to Service of Transport Department
23,377
6
0
1163
Cash rec. of Mr. Milford, towards making good sundry Bills drawn by the Hon. G. Stuart, Governor of Fort George, for Contingencies
72
17
4
Cash received of Mr. Chapman, being the Produce of Dollars
Papers presented to the House of Commons respecting PAYMENTS made by the Government of IRELAND, at PAR, to all Persons in and from Ireland, since the Union—Presented and ordered to be printed, 26th March, 1804.
An Account of Payments made by the Government of Ireland at Par, to all Persons in and from Ireland, since the Union; distinguishing the Amount paid in each Session of Parliament; the Average Rats of Exchange, and the Total Amount above Par; setting forth the Orders under which the Payments were made at Par, and a Copy of the Form of such Orders.
Amount paid to Persons.
Average Rate of Exchange, and Total Amount above Par.
In Ireland.
From Ireland.
Rate per Cent.
Amount.
Session
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1801
—
5,153
9
2
4
13
11
241
15
2
1801–2
—
9,466
1
3½
2
13
6
253
4
5
1802–3
—
11,241
0
5½
5
10
0
618
16
3
Total
£
25,861
10
11
British Money.
Description of Persons from Ireland who have at any Time received Payments at Par from the Government of Ireland; with the Amount paid to each Person, in the last Three Sessions respectively.
Description.
Sums paid.
Orders.
Form of Orders: see Appendix.
£.
s.
d.
Late Lord Chancellor
1,515
7
8
Comrs. of the Treasury
A.
Late Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieut
4,029
4
4
Comrs. of the Treasury
A.
Chancellor of the Exchequer
6,219
4
7½
Chancellor of Exchequer
E.
Salary for his Clerk 400
l.
1,200
0
0
Chancellor of Exchequer
E.
Lords of the Treasury
5,347
14
3½
Comrs. of the Treasury
A.
Chief Clerk of the Treasury
1,850
0
0
Comrs. of the Treasury
A.
Clerk for the Irish Supplies and Ways and Means, Salary 400
l.
1,200
0
0
Chancellor of Exchequer
C.
Counsel to Revenue Commissioners
950
0
0
Chancellor of Exchequer
D.
Secretary to the Commissioners of Excise
1,050
0
0
Chancellor of Exchequer
B.—C.
Inspector Gen. of Imports and Exports
200
0
0
Chancellor of Exchequer
C.
Assistant to Gen. of Imports and Exports
600
0
0
Chancellor of Exchequer
B.—C.
Late and present Revenue Solicitors
900
0
0
Chancellor of Exchequer
B.—C.
Deputy Customer of Dublin Port
700
0
0
Chancellor of Exchequer
B.—C.
Total
£
25,861
10
11
An Account of all Salaries and Pensions charged upon the Revenue if England, which have paid at Par to Persons resident in England, between the
th of January
and the
th January
British Money.
Salaries, as particularly stated underneath
12,850
7
7½
Pensions
None
1164
returned from Secret Service Money
2,433
18
4
1,425,884
1
8
Remains to be provided for
339,207
18
7
Pay Office, Horse Guards, 28th March, 1804.
D. THOMAS, Accountant.
N. R. The preceding Average Rate of Exchange, and the Total Amount above Par, are taken on the actual Remittances and Drafts of the Irish Treasury.
If the Average Rate and Amount be required at upon the highest and lowest Rates of the Exchange, they will stand as follows:
Highest and Lowest Rate of Exchange above Par.
Average Rate and Total Amount above Par.
Highest.
Lowest.
Average.
Amount.
Session
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
1801
5
18
4
1
3
4
3
10
10
182
10
4
1801–2
3
3
4
1
13
4
2
8
4
228
15
3
1802–3
8
13
4
1
13
4
5
3
4
578
19
3
Particulars of the above Sum.
£.
s.
d.
Chief Sec. to the Lord Lieut.
4,029
4
4
Chanc. of the Excheq.
2,369
4
7½
Salary for his Clerk
400
0
0
Lords of the Treas.
1,643
11
6
Chief Clerk of the Treas.
650
0
0
Counsel to the Reven. Comrs.
750
0
0
1165
£.
s.
d.
Solicitor to the Revenue
100
0
0
Sec. to the Comrs. of Excise
600
0
0
Assist. to the Inspr. Genl. of Imports and Exports
300
0
0
Clerk for Irish Supplies and Way and Means
400
0
0
Total for Offrs. from Ireland, occasinally Residents in Eng.
11,242
0
5½
Offrs. of Ho. of Commons and others, resid. in Eng. for preparing the Public Parliamentary Business
1,608
7
2
Total
£.
12,850
7
7½
A.
Copies of the Forms of the different Orders given by the Lords of the Treasury of Ireland, on Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge; for Advances made to Officers from Ireland, and afterwards passed in Account by the Lords of the Treasury at Par.
Dublin, 20th June, 1801.
Gentlemen,—I am directed, by the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas., to desire that you will pay to the E. of Clare the Sum of 1,615
l.
s.
d.
Messrs. Puget and Co. GEORGE SHEE.
Dublin, 24th Oct. 1801.
Gentlemen,—The E. of Loltus, one of the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas., having paid to the Teller of H. M. Excheq. to your Credit, the Sum of 923
l.
s.
d.
Messrs. Puget and Co. GEORGE CAVENDISH.
Dublin, 6th Jan. 1802.
Gentlemen,—I am directed; by the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas., to desite that you will give credit to James Crofton, Esq. their lordships' ch. clerk, for the sum of 300
l.
Messrs, Puget and Co. G. CAVENDISH.
Dublin, 14th Jan. 1803.
Gentlemen,—I am commanded by the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas., to request that you will give a credit on their lordship's acc. to James Crofton, Esq. their lordship's ch. clerk, for the sum of 500
l.
Messrs. Puget and Co. G. CAVENDISH.
Dublin, 18th Jan. 1802.
Gentlemen,—James Crofton, Esq. ch. clerk to the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas., having paid to the Teller of H. M. Excheq. the sum of 500
l
Messrs. Puget and Co. G. CAVENDISH.
Dublin, 4th Feb. 1802.
Gentlemen,—I am directed by the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas. to desire that you will pay to the Right Hon. Maurice Fitzgerald, such part of the amount of his salary of 1,200
l.
1166
Messrs. Puget & Co.
Dublin, 27th April, 1802.
Gentlemen,—I am directed by the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas. to desire that you will give a further credit of 200
l.
Messrs. Puget, &.
Dublin, 1st Oct. 1802.
Gentlemen,—The E. of Loftus, one of my Lds. Comrs. of the Treas. having paid into the Treas. on your acc. the sum of 500
l.
Messrs. Puget & Co.
Dublin, 17th Nov. 1802.
Gentlemen,—The E. of Loftus, one of the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas. having paid to the teller of the Exchequer, on your acc. the sum of 276
l.
s.
d.
Messrs. Puget & Co.
Dublin, 12th April, 1803.
Gentlemen,—I am commanded to desire that you will give credit to the E. of Loftus for any sum he may require out of his salary as one of the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas. at the rate of 1,200
l.
Messrs. Puget & Co.
Dublin, 28th April, 1803.
Gentlemen,—I am commanded by the Lds. Comrs. of the Treas. to desire that you will give credit to the Right Hon. Wm. Wickham, for any sum he may require out of his salary as chief secretary to his Exc. the Ld. Lieutenant of Ireland, at the rate of 4,365
l.
Messrs. Puget & Co.
Copies of the Forms of the different Orders given by the Right Hon. Isaac Corry, Chancellor of the Exchequer of Ireland, on Messrs. Puget and Bainbridge; for Advances made to Officers from Ireland, and afterwards passed in Account by the Lords of the Treasury at Par.
[B.]
Sirs,—Mr.—who has attended in London throughout the session of parliament as—having occasion for an advance of money on account of his public services, you will be pleased to pay him,
£.
ISAAC CORRY,
[C.] London,
Messrs. Puget and Co. Pay or bearer
£.
£
1167
[D] London,
Messrs. Puget & Co. Pay—or bearer,
£.
£.
[E.] London,
Messrs. Puget & Co. Pay or bearer,
£.
£.
Note.—The above is the form of the orders given by the Chan, of the Excheq. for his own use, in the session, 1801: since when, his orders have been uniformly drawn, to be placed to his private acc. with the house of Puget and Bain, bridge, as follows:
Messrs. Puget & Co. London,
Pay or bearer,
£.
And those orders have been so charged accordingly and not placed to the acc. of the Treas. of Ireland. At the close of each year the Chan. of the Excheq. whilst in Ireland has, on receiving the orders of the Lds. of the Treas. for his salaries, paid in a sum to the teller of the Excheq. in Dublin, for acc. of Puget and Bainbridge. After which payment, the amt. thereof has been charged to the Treas. of Ireland, in acc. by Puget and Bainbridge, the Chan. of the Excheq. for the surplus of his acc. with their house, remaining subject to all charges of exchange, &c. as a private individual.
PUGET and BAINBRIDGE.
Papers presented to the House of Commons respecting LORD HOOD'S Claim to PRIZE MONEY at Toulon. Presented to the House of Commons, March 23, 1804.
Abstract of Proceedings respecting Lord Hood's Claim to Prize Money taken at Toulon.
His Majesty was pleased, by his order in council (Nov. 17, 1802) to refer to a committee a memorial of Lord Vis. Hood, Admiral of the White Squadron of his Majesty's fleet, praying a reward to the officers, seamen, and marines of the fleet under his command, for 10 sail of French Sine of battle ships and 3 frigates completely burnt or destroyed; and for 6 other sail of the line materially injured at Toulon in the year 1793; and also for certain other French ships which had been taken possession of and brought away by the memorialist, and had been armed and employed in his Majesty's service immediately or soon after the memorialist got possession of Toulon; and stating, that had these ships been condemned in the High Court of Admiralty, the valuation of their hulls and stores would have been paid by the Commissioners of his Majesty's navy, and the value of the ordnance and ordnance stores by the Board of Ordnance, and the amount distributed to his Majesty's officers, seamen, and marines, serving under the command of the memorialist at the time the said ships were taken possession of; and therefore praying that his Majesty would be graciously pleased to direct the value of the said trench ships to be reported by the commissioners of his Majesty's navy, and the value of the ordnance and ordnance store to be reported by the Board of Ordnance; and that the sum which may be found to be the value of the said ships, with their ordnance and ordnance stores, should be paid to the memorialist in
1168
£
l.
s.
d.
£.
s.
£.
s.
d.
Navy Office, 1st April, 1803. SIR,—In obedience to the directions of the Rt. Hon. the Lds. Commissioners of the Admiralty, signified by your letter of the 23d February last, we transmit you, herewith, an estimate of the value of the French ships taken at Toulon, as mentioned in the memorial from Lord Hood which accompanied your letter aforesaid, and of such others as were lost while employed in ins Majesty's service; prepared according to the general value of ships of similar descriptions, from the records in the office of such of them as have been valued upon their
1169
Sir Evan Nepean, Bart.
Valuation of Ships, Ordnance and Ordnance Stores found at Toulon.
£.
s.
d.
Value of ships found at Toulon and armed for his Majetys's service, on the 29th August, 1793
236,742
0
0
Value of ordnance and ordnance stores on board the ships armed by Lord hood at Toulon, on the 29th of August, 1793
10,421
4
0
Value of ordnance and ordnance stores, taken on board French ships at Toulon, and delivered up to his Majesty's stores at Portsmouth and Priddy's Hard
18,173
13
10½
265,336
14
10½
ORDER of HIS MAJESTY in Council, approving Committee Report submitting to his Majesty's favourable Consideration the Claim of Viscount Hood, in Behalf of himself, and of the Officers, Seamen, and Marines serving under his Command at Toulon, in the Year 1793.—Dated 31st August, 1803.
At the Court at St. James's, the 31st of August,
Present, the King's Most Excellent Majesty in Council.
1170
1171
LORD HOOD'S MEMORIAL, praying his Majesty's Direction to the Advocate General, to prepare a Giant for the Amount of the estimated Value of the Ships, &c taken Possession of at Toulon; dated Royal Hospital, Greenwich, September 6, 1803.
To the Kings Most Excellent Majesty in Council.—The Memorial of Samuel, Lord Viscount Hood, Admiral of the White Squadron of yew Majesty's Fleet
REPORT of the COMMITTEE of the HOUSE of COMMONS, to whom the Petition of the Owners of Lands in the Islands of SHETLAND, for themselves and on Behalf of the other Heritors and Inhabitants of the said Islands, was referred. Dated March, 1604.
Pursuant to the order of the House, your committee have examined the matter of the said petition: to prove, the allegations whereof, Mr. John Scott, being examined, said, that he is a resident in the Island of Valey, about 20 miles from Lerwick—he was there during the last season—that the last harvest was very unfavourable owing to bad weather; that seed was imported from Berwick, and some from the North Country also, but neither answered; that the population of the Shetland Islands is from 20 to 22,000; that the expense of the meal and bear imported last season, amounted to more than
£.
1172
RESOLUTIONS of the COMMITTEE of the HOUSE OF COMMONS appointed to adjust such Differences as may arise between Masters and Workmen engaged in the COTTON MANUFACTURES.—Presented to the House, March 28, 1804.
The committee appointed to consider of the most speedy and effectual mode of adjusting such differences as may arise between masters and workmen engaged in the Cotton Manufacture, and to report the same as it should appear to them to the House; and to whom the minutes of the evidence taken before the Committee, on the petitions presented to the House, in the last Session of Parliament, and also the several proceedings of the House, or of any committee thereof, in the same session, relating to the Cotton Manufacture, were severally referred; and who were instructed to consider of proper measures to be taken for preventing such differences, and to report the several matters referred, to them, together with their observations and opinion thereupon to the House;—Having perused and considered the minutes of the evidence taken before the committee, to whom the several petitions presented to the House in the last session of Parliament, relating to the Act of the 39th and 40th year of his present Majesty, intituled, "An Act for settling Disputes "that may arise between Masters and Workmen "engaged in the Cotton Manufacture, in that "Part of G. Britain called England," were referred; and having taken into their consideration the Bill for amending the said Act, which was presented to the House in the last session of Parliament, for the more effectually settling such disputes;—Have come to the following resolutions:—1. Resolved, that it appears to this committee, that the Act of the 39th and 40th year of his present Majesty, for settling disputes between masters and workmen engaged in the cotton manufacture in England, has not produced the good effects that were expected from it.—2. Resolved, that it appears to this committee, that the principle and object of the said Act was the establishment of a short, summary, impartial, and competent tribunal, for the determination of all disputes arising between masters and workmen engaged in the same manufacture, respecting the same.—3. Resolved, that it is the opinion of this committee, that the power given by the said Act to masters and workmen respectively to nominate persons to bear and determine disputes arising between there
1173
RETURN to an Order, of the House of Commons, dated the 19th March, 1804, for "An Account of the Number of Districts from which Assessments, made by virtue of the Act imposing a DUTY on PROPERTY, have been returned to the Office for Taxes stating the Total Sum assessed:"—Also, for "An Account of the Number of Districts from which no such Assessments have been returned to the said Office."—Dated from the Office for Taxes, March 26, 1804.—Signed, W. Lowndes, B. Barne, H. Hayes, E. Medows, H. Hodgson.
We beg leave to state, that the act, imposing a duty on property, not requiring that assessments, made by virtue thereof, should be returned to this office, we are not enabled to lay before this hon. House, the accounts required, in the form stated
1174
£.
£.
£.
£.
1175
LIST OF ACTS
Passed in the present Session of Parliament, and in the
th Year of the Reign of his present Majesty, George III.; containing those passed since tie Christmas Recess on the
th of Dec.
to the Easter Recess, March
with the Date of their meeting the Royal Assent.
Chap. 19. An act for punishing mutiny and desertion; and for the better payment of the army and their quarters, [passed 9th March, 1804.]
20. An act for the regulation of his Majesty's royal marine forces while on shore. [9th March, 1804.]
21. An act to continue, until 3 months after any restriction imposed, by any act of the present session of Parliament on the Bank of England from issuing cash in payments shall cease. An act, made in Parliament of Ireland in the 37th of his present Majesty, for confirming and continuing the restrictions on payments in cash by the Bank of Ireland, and also an act made in the 43d of his present Majesty for amending the said act. [9th March, 1804.]
22. An act to indemnify all persons who have been concerned in issuing or carrying into execution an order of the Lord's Commissioners of his Majesty's Treasury, for permitting the exportation of seed corn to Portugal, from Great Britain, [9th March, 1804.]
23. An act for allowing vessels employed in the Greenland Whale Fishery, and clearing out from any pore in Great Britain, to complete their full number of men at certain ports for the present season, [9th March, 1804.]
24. An act for further continuing, until the 25th of March. 1806, an act made in the 33d of his present Majesty, for rendering the payment of creditors more equal and expeditions in Scotland. [9th March, 1804.]
25. An act to enable Ins Majesty to grant the inheritance in fee-simple, of certain manors, messuages, lands, and hereditaments, in the parishes of Byfleet, Weybridge, Walton, Walton Leigh, and Chertsey, in the County of Surry, to his Royal Highness Frederick Duke of York and Albany, for a valuable consideration. [9th March, 1804.]
26. An act for charging, until the 25th day of March, 1805, certain rates and drawbacks, and for allowing certain bounties and
1176
27. An act for charging, until the 25th day of March, 1805, certain increased countervailing duties on the importation into Ireland, of the several goods, wares, and merchandize therein mentioned, being the growth, produce, or manufacture of Great Britain; and for allowing increased drawbacks on the exportation to Great Britain of the several articles therein mentioned, being the manufacture of Ireland. [23d March, 1804.
28. An act for granting to his Majesty a duty upon malt made in Ireland, for the year 1804. [23d March, 1804.]
29. An act for permitting, until the 5th day of May, 1805, the importation of hides, calve skins, horns, tallow, and wool, (except cotton wool,) in foreign ships, on payment of the like duties as if imported in British or Irish ships. [23d March, 1804.]
30. An act to revive and continue, until 8 months after the ratification of a definitive treaty of peace, an act, made in the 42d of his present Majesty, for repealing several acts relating to the admission of certain articles of merchandize in neutral ships, and to the issuing orders in council for that purpose, and for making other provisions in lieu thereof; and also, to indemnify all persons who have been concerned in issuing or carrying into execution orders of council for permitting the importation of certain goods from America in neutral ships. [23d March, 1804.]
31. An act for raising the further sum of two millions by loans or exchequer bills, on the credit of such aids or supplies as have been or shall be granted by Parliament for the service of Great Britain, for the year 1804. [23d March, 1804.]
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
B.
Bank of England Restriction Bill,152,304
Bank of Ireland Restriction Bill,697,714
Bank and Private Paper, 642
Boydell's Lottery Bill, 849
C.
Catholic Correspondence, 697
Cholmondeley Estate Bill, 492
Clergv, Parochial, 60,363
Committee of Privileges, 11
Correspondence, Catholic, 697
Curates' Relict Bill, 240
E.
Expiring Laws bills, 240
H.
Wabeas Corpus and Martial Law
Bill in Ireland, 240
I.
Irish Habeas Corpus and Martial Law Bill, 240
Irish Pensions and Salaries at par, 568, 1018
Irish Rank Restriction Bill, 697
Irish Militia Offer, King's Message relative to, 1017
Irish Militia Offer Bill, 1053
K.
King's Speech on opening the session, 1
King's Indisposition, 634, 697,807
King's Message relative to the Irish Militia Offer, 1017
M.
Martial Law Bill in Ireland, 240
Mutiny Bill, 735
P.
Parochial Clergy, 60
Pensions and Salaries, Irish, atpar, 568
Priests' Orders Bill, 1058
Q.
Queen Anne's Annuities, 420
V.
Volunteers, 151,421
Volunteer Exemption Bill, 354,364
Volunteer Consolidation Bill,1004,1017, 1022
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A.
Address on the King's Speech, 15,33
Army Estimates, 157
Army Estimates, Report on the, 261
Aylesbury Election, 1011
B.
Bank of England Restriction Bill,51, 131
Bank of Ireland Restriction Bill,84, 133, 474, 493
Bankers' Indemnity Bill, 1020
Barracks, 45, 48, 418, 570
Bonds, East-India, 50, 89, 135
Boston Election Petition, 32
C.
Ceylon, War in, 855
Conduct of General Fox, 425
Cotton Manufacturers, Committee for settling the differences relative to,472 Curates' Stipendiary Bill, 57
Curates' Relief Bill, 58, 63, 150
Currency and Exchange of Ireland, 503, 649
D.
Desertion of Seamen, 43
E.
East-India Bonds, 50, 89, 135
Election Petitions, renewed, 33
Exchange and Currency of Ireland, 503, 649
Exchequer Bills, 64, 839
F.
Fishery Bill, Marine Society, 1048
Fortifications of Liverpool, 58
Fox, General, Conduct of, 425
G.
Grant, Colonel, order for his attendance, 134
Greenland Fishery Bill, 490
H.
Habeas Corpus Act, suspension of in Ireland, 65
Hood, Lord, his Claim, relative to the ships captured at Toulon, 1009, 1062
I.
Income Tax, 45,853, 1010
Income Tax, Military Officers', 504, 571 648, 736, 951
Irish Habeas Corpus Act, Suspension of, 65
Irish Martial Law Bill, 79, 89,139
Irish Bank Restriction Bill, 84,133, 474, 493, 571
Irish Import Duties Bill, 368
Irish Insurrection on the 23
d
Irish Exchange and Currency,503, 649
Irish Pensions and Salaries at par, 571, 647
Irish Revenue Acts, 663, 687
Irish Duties Bill, 810, 830, 839, 851
Irish Militia Families, 822, 1060
Irish Half-pay Officers, 1010
K.
Kilwarden, Lord, Provision for the Family of, 822
King's Speech on opening the Session, 1
King's Indisposition, 507, 663, 823
King's Message, relative to the Irish Militia Offer, 1021
L.
Liskeard Election, 954, 960, 1061
Liverpool, Fortifications of, 58
Loyalty Loan, 1011
M.
Mahratta War, 865
Malt Duties, 714, 1061
Marine Society Fishery Bill, 1048
Martial Law in Ireland, 79, 89, 139
Mediation of Russia, 959
Middlesex Election Petition, 385,388
Middlesex Election Committee,468
Military Officers' Income Tax,504, 571, 648, 736,951
Militia Families of Ireland, 822,1060
Mutiny Bill, 665
N.
Naval Inquiry, 149, 874
Naval Surplus, 955, 958
Navy Board, 719
O.
Oats Distillation Bill, 87
Order for Col. Grant's attendance, 134
P.
Pensions and Salaries, Irish, at par, 571, 647
Permanent Taxes,570
Petitions, Private, 46
Private Petitions, 46
Property Tax, 853, 1010
Property Tax, Military Officers,504, 571, 648, 736, 951
R.
Renewed Election Petitions, 33 Report on the Army Estimates,261
Russia, Mediation of, 959
S.
Seamen's Desertion Bill, 43
Sierra Leona Company, 150
Slave Trade, 471
Stipendiary Curates' Bill, 57
Sterling Election Petition, 468 471
V.
Volunteer Exemption Bill, 235,303, 319,334,369
Volunteer Consolidation Bill, 425,532, 572, 665, 719, 823, 831,846, 930, 951, 960
Volunteer Corps, Motion for all the Correspondence relative to,461
W.
War of Ceylon, 855
Waterford Election Committee, 32, 40, 47, 53
INDEX OF NAMES.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
A.
Alvanley, Lord, 492
Asaph, Saint, Bishop of, 1058
Auckland, 709, 715, 1046
B.
Boringdon, Lord, 1030
C.
Caernarvon, Earl of, 640, 645,708, 1007, 1026, 1029
Carlisle, Earl of, 938
Carlton, Lord, 716, 1017
Carysfort, Earl of, 709
Clarence, Duke of, 363
D.
Darnley, Earl, 151, 260, 362,717, 1005, 1008, 1032, 1058
E.
Eldon, Lord,
sec
Ellenborough, Lord, 1027
F.
Fife, Earl of, 1033
Fitzwilliam, Earl, 364, 366, 367, 638, 807, 1005
G.
Grantley, Lord, 367
Grenville. Lord, 156, 250, 304, 318, 358, 635, 641, 642, 643, 701, 1035, 1042, 1057, l058
H.
Harrowby, Lord, 1006, 1047
Hawkesbury, Lord, 11, 151, 150, 154, 156, 240, 311, 318, 358 362, 365, 420, 421, 568, 635, 638, 642, 644, 705, 715, 717, 1004, 1005, 1006, 1017, 1018,1022, 1047, 1053, 1058
Hobart, 260, 357, 361, 362, 569, 645, 646, 1029, 1043, 1058
K.
King, Lord, 153, 155, 248, 314, 568, 634, 637, 697, 701, 715, 717 1029
L.
Landaff, Bishop of, 1030
Limerick, Earl of, 7, 256, 568, 701, 1017, 1018, 1019, 1O56
Lord Chancellor (Eldon), 11, 258, 358, 367, 421, 492, 639, 641, 645, 646, 697, 710, 716, 808, 849, 1007, 1040
M.
Montrose, Duke of, 1044, IO54
Morton, Earl of, 1029
N.
Norfolk, Duke of, 60, 318, 363, 735
R.
Romney, Earl of, 361, 1O34
S.
Sligo, Marquis of, 4, 250, 318,1056
Somerset, Duke of, 1034
Spencer, Earl, 645, 1004, 1018,1042
Suffolk, Earl of, 240, 246, 354,357, 358, 420, 42l 422 568,697,849
W.
Walsingham, Lord, 12, 421, 1008
Westmorland, Earl of, 1045
INDEX OF NAMES.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A.
Abbot, C.
see
Addington, Right Hon. Henry,
see
Addington, J. Hiley, 237, 338, 826, 952, 1049
Alexander, H. 486,571, 661, 694, 800, 814, 939, 1011.
Anderson, Sir J. 874
Archdall, R. 762, 1096
Ashley, Hon. C. 13, 34
Atkins, J. 695
Attorney-General (Hon. S. Perceval) 47, 54, 127, 299, 323, 330, 430, 408, 457, 728, 791,833, 944, 1102
B.
Bankes, W. 1093, 1101
Bastard, E, 947, 1090
Beresford, J. C. 83, 145
Berkeley, Admiral, 45, 48, 144, 145, 231, 425, 570, 608, 888, 893, 1071, 1071
Best, Serjeant, 405
Blackburn, J. 1053
Blaquiere, Lord De, 232, 695, 792, 1097
Bourne, Sturges, 456, 458, 916, 952
Bragge, Right Hon. C.
see
Brogden, J. 653
Burdett, Sir F. 27, 1072
Burland. J. B. 17
Burroughs, W. 75, 79, 844, 921, 1062, 1101
Buxton, Sir R. 1016, 1061
C.
Calcrafc, Col. 345, 371, 373,420, 804, 864, 948, 1048, 1095,1099
Calvert, N. 1014
Canning, G. 526, 752, 818, 953
Cartwright, W. R. 934
Castlereagh, Lord, 50, 76, 105,136, 202, 277, 298, 439, 459, 482, 485, 486, 555, 657, 695, 720, 724, 744, 816, 845, 847, 861, 862, 864, 870, 872, 1003, 1088 Cavendish, Lord G. 729
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Right Hon. Henry Addington) 24, 33, 41 42 46, 51, 53, 58, 59, 60, 63, 64, 116, 131, 145, 150, 225, 228, 238, 279, 327, 330 350 371, 372 373, 386, 394, 398, 420, 462, 468, 472, 507, 513, 526, 529, 530, 564, 570, 571, 572, 649, 664, 669, 714, 725, 726, 727, 729, 732, 736, 803, 813, 817, 822, 824, 826, 834, 837, 839, 842, 854, 864, 865, 911, 935, 948, 954,955. 957, 959. 990, 998, 1009, 1010,1011,1014, 1021, 1062, 1069, 1070, 1071, 1093, 1098, 1101
Combe, H. C. 45, 944
Cornewall, Sir G. 1012
Corry, 1. 80, 84, 87, 88, 133, 231,368,476,485,494,498,647, 648, 654, 656, 663, 664, 687, 692, 694, 695, 810, 812, 814, 815, 817, 830, 839, 840, 844, 851, 1O10, 106o
Courtenay, J. 296, 921
Craufurd, Col. 103, 109, 261, 331, 341, 575, 607, 961, 1000
Creevey, T. 59, 468, 471, 855, 862, 1068
Curtis, Sir W. 920
Curwen, J. C. 236, 277, 495, 668, 685, 1001
D.
Dallas, R. 412, 778 Dawson, W. 624, 696, 764, 812
Dent, J. 58, 60, 135, 150, 566, 571, 572, 634, 804, 1011, 1020
Deverell, R. 47, 54, 413
Dick, Q; 658, 662
Dickinson, W 826, 1O0O
Dolben, Sir W. 1051
Dundas, C. 32, 40
Dundas, W. 55, 137, 954
Dunlo, Lord, 486
E.
Elford, Sir W. 131, 149, 150, 719, 722, 918
Elliot, W. 90, 571
Ellison, R. 32
Erskine, 291, 934
Eyre, Col. 452, 610
F.
Folkestone, Lord, 372, 648, 956, 958, 1098
Fonblanque, J.411, 922, 953
Foster, J. 481, 484, 497, 498, 503, 649, 656, 692, 693, 695, 696, 814, 816, 822, 831, 840, 842, 843, 1060
Fox, C. 21, 209, 228, 230, 385, 387, 3S8, 414, 417, 508, 561, 612, 630, 661, 726, 727, 728, 729, 778, 801, 802, 819, 845, 846, 862, 907, 940, 959, 996
Francis, P. 88, 104, 397, 572, 865, 872
Fuller, J. 612, 663, 686, 1073
G.
Geary, Sir W 721, 1003, 1052
Giles, Dan. 325, 330, 346, 373
Gower, Lord G. L. 324
Grant, Sir W. we Master of the Rolls
Grant, C. 41, 137
Gregor, F. 89, 854
Gtenville, P. 146, 200, 399, 458, 461, 468, 529, 530, 532, 937, 948, 1096
Grev, C. 528, 566, 663, 664, 802, 823, 847, 848
Grosvenor, Gen. 953
H.
Hamilton, Lord, A. 74, 133, 144, 402, 474, 493, 495, 571, 647, 648, 660, 1O1O, 1O61
Hawthorne, C.S. 73,695, 800, 812
Hobhouse, R 460
Howard, H. 873
Hurst, R. 873, 1015, 1051
Hutchinson, Hon. C. H. 68, 128, 232, 804, 810, 1091
J.
Jervis, T. 43, 412
Jekyll, J. 52, 400
Johnstone, G. 137, 485, 570, 863, 871, 957, 1009, 1065, 1072, 1101
Joliffe, H. 873
Jones, T. 913
K.
Ker, R. G. 811
Kinnaird, C. 938, 952, 1061, 107a
L.
Langton, G. 960
Lascelles, A. 725, 829, 1003
Latouche, J. 811
Laurence, Dr. 124, 144, 298, 299, 303, 324, 325, 347, 46r, 728, 790. 944 1069, 1070, 1090, 1101 1102
Lawley, Sir R. 507, 529, 731
Loftuo, General, 73, 126, 1001
M.
Maitland, Gen. 601, 732, 863
Markham, Capt. 566, 609, 919
Marsham, Lord, 468
Master of the Rolls (Sir W. Grant) 1012, 10l6, 1101
Metcalfe,. Sir T. 471
Moore, P. 1053
N.
Newport, Sir J. 496, 658, 811 851, 1013, 1095
Nicholl, Sir J. 1099
Norton, Gen. 330
O.
Ormsby, C. M. 819
Ossulston, Lord, 721
P.
Patteson, J. 331
Pellew, Sir E. 891
Perceval, Hon. S.
see
Petty, Lord H. 479, 656, 864
Pierrcpoint, C. H. 1065
Pitt, W. 188, 234, 273, 277, 278, 296, 321, 517, 542, 557, 621, 664, 666, 668, 673, 685, 719, 721, 723 724 716, 727, 728, 729, 731, 732 733. 814, 821, 824, 825, 823 829, 831, 834, 835, 846, 871, 921 945, 946, 950 952, 954, 1080
Plumer, W. 135
Pole, W. 109
Pole, Sir C. 149, 150, 886, 1072
Ponsonby, G. 653, 813 822, 843, 941
Ponsonby, W. 810
Popham, Sir H. 1067, 1070
Price, Alderman, 340
Prinsep, J. 1020, 1O53
Pulteney, Sir W. 414,733
Pulteney, Sir J. M. 999
R.
Raine, Jonathan, 821, 727
Rose, G. 270, 322, 325, 329, 473, 720, 725, 817, 829, 842, 1000, 1010
Russell, Lord W. 725, 728 873
S.
Scott, Sir W. 57, 1071
Secretary at War (Right Hon. C. Bragge) 42, 48, 55, 157, 303, 420, 506, 570, 665, 938, 1061,1062
Sheridan, R. B. 413, 437, 898, 945, 948, 1062, 11OO
Smith, W. 1070
Speaker, The, (Right Hon. C. Abbot) 13, 31, 32, 33, 41,47 53, 55, 134, 141 150, 370, 372, 417, 801, 813, 855, 938, 955
Stanhope, S. 827
T.
Tarleton, Gen, 722, 723, 772, 803, 931, 1002
Temple, Earl, 74, 504, 506, 648, 649, 736, 769, 951
Thornton, H. 150, 481
Ticrney, G. 42, 324 402, 560, 721, 726, 8O1, 803, 881
Titchfield, Marq. of 832, 1011, 1012
V.
Van sit tart, N. 45, 89, 137. 480, 490, 570, 957, 1010, 1020, 1021
W.
Ward, R. 42, 846
Western, C. C. 714
Whitbread, W. 442, 455, 558, 823, 828, 935
Wilberforce, W. 123, 139, 143, 472, 893
Windham, W. 34, 109, 128, 148 162, 200, 281, 292, 302, 334 340, 353 370, 372, 450, 521, 552, 630, 667, 733, 796, 800; 801, 826, 946, 972, 1072, 1O85, 1093, 1095
Wood, Col. 141, 1099
Wrottesley, Sir J. 425, 452, 491, 567, 686, 737, 805, 944
Wynne, Sir W. W. 331, 731
Wynne, C. 686, 721, 725, 827, 940, 1003, 1012, 1O13, 1016
Y.
yorke, Mr. Secretary, 65, 79, 100, 142, 147, 182, 229, 231, 235, 238, 273, 275, 303, 320, 322, 323, 324, 325, 327, 331. 333, 341 346, 370, 371, 425, 453, 455, 462, 537, 574, 665, 663, 669, 684, 686, 719, 720, 721, 722, 723, 726, 727, 731, 774, 822, 823, 831, 832, 846, 847, 848, 930, 937, 951, 1073
Young, Sir W. 322, 327, 343, 347, 466, 611, 665, 669, 938