COBBETT'S Parliamentary Debates,
DURING THE
THIRD SESSION OF THE SECOND PARLIAMENT
OF THE
UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT-BRITAIN AND IRELAND,
AND OF THE KINGDOM OF GREAT-BRITAIN THE NINETEENTH,
Appointed to meet at Westminster the Fourth Day of September, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Four; and from thence continued, by Prorogation, to the Fifteenth Day of January, in the Forty-Fifth Year of the Reign of King GEORGE the THIRD, Annoque Domini, One Thousand Eight Hundred and Five.
VOL. III.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
BETWEEN THE 15th OF JANUARY AND THE 12th OF MARCH 1805.
LONDON:
PRINTED BY J. BRETTELL, MARSH ALL-STREET, GOLDEN SQUARE;
PUBLISHED BY R. BAQSHAW, BOW-STREET, COVENT-GARDEN; AND SOLD ALSO BY J. EUDD, PALL-MALL; R. FAULDER, NEW BOND-STREET; H. D. SYMONDS, PATERNOSTER-ROW; BLACKS AND PARRY, LEADENHALL-STREET; AND J. ARCHER, DUBLIN.
1805.
ADVERTISEMENT.
THE only circumstances necessary to be noticed at the head of the present Volume, are; that there will be found, in the pages immediately succeeding the Table of Contents, a correct List of the Members of the House of Commons; in the body of the volume, and under the date of their being laid before parliament, the whole of the Public Papers relative to the War with Spain; and, in the Appendix, the first TEN REPORTS made to both Houses of Parliament by the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry. The several Accounts, Reports, Returns, &c. relating to the finances and other matters will be contained in the Appendix to the volume with which the proceedings of the Session will close.
TABLE OF CONTENTS TO VOL. III.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Page
1805. Jan. 15. King's speech—Lord Eliot, lord Gwyder, earl of Carlisle, lord Hawkesbury, duke of Clarence, lord Grenville, duke of Norfolk, lord Grenville, lord Mulgrave
1
Conduct of judge Fox—Marquis of Abercorn, lord Carleton, lord Hawkesbury, lord Grenville, marquis of Abercorn, lord Hawkesbury
22
Committee of privileges—Lord Hawkesbury
24
1805. Jan. 16. Insolvent debtors' bill—Lord Ellenborough, the lord chancellor
42
1805. Jan. 21. Catholic emancipation—Earl of Suffolk
44
Additional force bill—Earl Darnley, lord Hawkesbury, earl Darnley
45
Conduct of judge Fox—Marquis of Abercorn, the lord chancellor
46
1805. Jan. 22. Insolvent debtors'bill—Lord Ellenborough
51
1805. Jan. 24. Conduct of judge Fox—Marquis of Abercorn
58
1805. Jan. 28. Conduct of judge Fox—Marquis of Abercorn
144
Additional force bill—Earl Darnley, earl Camden, earl Darnley
145
1805. Jan. 29. War with Spain—Lord Mulgrave, lord Grenville, earl Darnley, lord Hawkesbury, lord Grenville, the earl of Carlisle, earl Camden, lord Hawkesbury, lord Mulgrave, lord King, earl Darnley
155
1805. Feb. 1. War with Spain—Earl Darnley, lord Mulgrave, earl Darnley
164
1805. Feb. 4. Additional force bill—Earl Darnley, lord Hawkesbury, lord King
219
War with Spain—Lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, lord Grenville, lord Mulgrave, lord Grenville, lord Mulgrave, lord Grenville
219
1805. Feb. 5. War with Spain—Earl Spencer, lord Mulgrave, lord Hawkesbury, earl Spencer, earl of Carlisle, lord Hawkesbury, lord King, earl Darnley, lord Hawkesbury
256
1805. Feb. 11. Naval Enquiry—Earl of Albemarle, earl St. Vincent, lord Hawkesbury, earl St. Vincent, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Suffolk
336
War with Spain—Lord Mulgrave, earl Spencer, lord Sidmouth, lord King, earl of Westmoreland, earl Darnley, earl Fitzwilliam, lord Hawkesbury, earl Fitzwilliam, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, lord Mulgrave
338
1805. Feb. 13. Irish habeas corpus suspension bill—Lord King, lord Hawkesbury, lord King
469
1805. Feb. 15. Conduct of earl St. Vincent—Duke of Clarence, lord Sidmouth, duke of Clarence, lord Hawkesbury, the lord chancellor, duke of Clarence
478
Repeal of the additional force bill—Earl Darnley, earl Camden, earl of Suffolk, lord King, duke of Cumberland, earl of Westmoreland, earl Spencer, lord Sidmouth, duke, of Clarence, lord Mulgrave, lord Grenville, lord Melville, earl of Fife, lord Hawkesbury, carl of Buckinghamshire, the lord chancellor, earl Darnley
478
1805. Feb. 18. Conduct of judge Fox—Lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Carlisle, the lord chancellor, lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, duke of Clarence, the lord Chancellor
535
Irish habeas corpus suspension bill—Lord King, lord Hawkesbury, marquis of Sligo
541
1805. Feb. 21. Conduct of judge Fox—Duke of Clarence, earl of Limerick, earl of Carlisle, earl of Westmoreland, lord Auckland, lord Mulgrave, lord Carleton, Marquis of Abercorn, lord Carleton, earl Spencer, lord Hawkesbury, lord Grenville, lord Sidmouth, lord Grenville
Irish habeas corpus suspension bill—Lord Grenville, lord Hawkesbury, marquis of Sligo, lord Grenville, the lord chancellor, lord Hawkesbury, marquis of Sligo, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Carlisle, lord Hawkesbury, earl Spencer, earl of Longford, duke of Montrose, earl of Enniskillen, duke of Clarence, earl of Limerick, earl Darnley, lord Auckland, lord Grenville, lord Mulgrave, duke of Clarence
581
1805. March 6. Conduct of judge Fox—Lord Walsingham, earl of Carlisle, lord Hawkesbury, earl of Carlisle, lord Grenville, the lord chancellor
712
Dismissals from the dock yards—Earl Fortescue, lord Melville, earl St. Vincent, earl Fortescue, earl St. Vincent, lord Melville
715
Irish habeas corpus suspension bill—Lord King, lord Hawkesbury, lord King, lord Hawkesbury, the lord chancellor, lord Grenville, the lord chancellor, earl of Derby, lord Hawkesbury
719
1805. March 8. Defence of the country—Lord King, earl Camden, earl Stanhope, earl of Romney, earl of Carlisle, lord Hawkesbury, earl Darnley, earl of Suffolk, duke of Montrose, lord Carisfort, lord Westmoreland, lord Grenville, lord Mulgrave, the lord chancellor, the duke of Clarence, lord Sidmouth, lord Melville, earl Spencer
793
1805. March 12. Conduct of judge Fox—The marquis of Abercorn, lord Auckland, the lord chancellor, earl Spencer, lord Hawkesbury, lord Ellenborough
855
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
1805. Jan. 15. King's speech—The speaker, hon. H. A. Dillon, mr. C. Adams, mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, mr. Windham
25
1805. Jan. 16. War in India—Mr. Francis
43
1805. Jan. 21. War in India—Mr. Francis, lord Castlereagh, mr. Francis
48
1805. Jan. 22. Defence of the country—Mr. Windham
54
1805. Jan. 23. Defence of the country—Mr. Windham, the chancellor of the exchequer
55
War with Spain—Mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer
57
1805. Jan. 25. Defence of the country—Mr. Windham, the chancellor of the exchequer
141
War with Spain—Mr. Grey, the chancellor of the exchequer, Mr. Grey
142
1805. Jan. 28. Army estimates—the secretary at war, colonel Calcraft, the secretary at war, colonel Calcraft, the secretary at war
148
War with Spain—Mr. Grey, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Grey, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, mr. Grey, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Grey, the chancellor of the exchequer
49
1805. Jan. 29. Middlesex election—Lord Marsham, the speaker, mr. Francis, lord Marsham
159
1805. Jan. 31. Commission of naval inquiry—Mr. Giles
103
1805. Feb. 1. Middlesex election—Lord Marsham, mr. Fox, lord Marsham, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Francis
108
1805. Feb. 4. Prince of Wales's Island—Mr. Johnstone
223
Commission of naval inquiry—Mr. Creevey, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Creevey, the chancellor of the exchequer
223
War with Spain—Mr. Grey, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Grey, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, mr. Grey
224
Army estimates.—The secretary at war, mr. Francis, the secretary at war, mr. Francis, the secretary at war, colonel Calcraft, the secretary at war, colonel Calcraft, mr. Kinnaird, mr. Whitbread, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Whitbread, colonel Calcraft, the secretary at war, colonel Calcraft, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. John stone, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fuller, the secretary at war, mr. Kinnaird, the secretary at war, mr. Kinnaird
247
Ordnance estimates—Mr. Wellesley Pole
255
1805. Feb. 5. Defence of the country—Mr. Elliot, the secretary at war, mr. Elliot, the secretary at war, mr. Windham
258
Irish loans in England—Lord Archibald Hamilton, mr. Foster
259
Repairs of the Romney and Sensible, while under the command of sir Home Popham, in the Red Sea—Mr. Kinnaird, sir Home Popham, admiral Markham, mr. Dickenson, jun. the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Kinnaird, sir Home Popham, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Kinnaird, sir Home Popham, mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer, sir Charles Pole, sir A. Hammond
261
Middlesex election—Lord Marsham, the chancellor of the exchequer, the speaker, the chancellor of the exchequer, lord Marsham the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, the attorney general, mr. Fox, mr. Sheridan, lord Marsham, mr. I. H. Browne, mr. J. Fitzgerald, the chancellor of the exchequer
275
1805. Feb. 6. Pensions Duties' Biil—The speaker, sir W. Young, the speaker
287
Loyalty loan—The chancellor of the exchequer
268
War with Spain—The chancellor of the exchequer, earl Temple, the Chancellor of the exchequer
289
1805. Feb. 7. Loyalty loan—Mr. Huskisson
307
1805. Feb. 8. Arrest of judge Johnson—Mr. J. Fitzgerald, the attorney general, mr. J. Fitzgerald, the attorney general, mr. J. Fitzgerald
309
Irish habeas corpus suspension bill—Sir Evan Nepean, sir John New port, mr. Dennis Browne, mr. Hutchinson, sir John Stuart, mr. Windham, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Windham, mr. Fox, sir Evan Nepean, mr. Fort, lord De Blaquiere, mr. Sheridan, Mr. Alexander, sir John Newport, mr. R. Martin, mr. Dawson
311
1805. Feb. 11. War with Spain—The chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Grey, lord Castlereagh, earl Temple, the advocate general, mr. Windham, the chancellor of the exchequer
365
1805. Feb. 12. British museum—Mr. Rose, mr. Bankes, mr. Rose, mr. Fuller, mr. W. Smith, mr. Fuller
409
War with Spain—Mr. Raine, mr. Bankes, mr. Johnstone, mr. Hiley Addington, dr. Lawrence, the master of the rolls, mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox
410
1805. Feb. 14. Irish habeas corpus suspension bill—Lord Henry Petty, mr. Ker, sir John Newport, mr. Pytches
473
1805. Feb. 15. Surplus of the consolidated fund—Mr. Johnstone, mr. Huskisson
520
Slave trade—Mr. Wiiberforce, general Gascoyne, sir W. Young, mr. Fuller, general Tarleton, mr. Wiiberforce
521
Irish habeas corpus suspension bill—Lord Henry Petty, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. C. Wynne, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Windham, mr. R. Martin, mr. Robert Ward, sir John Newport, mr. Fox, mr. Macnaghten, mr. Bagwell, lord De Blaquiere, mr. Kinnaird, lord De Blaquiere, dr. Duigenan, mr. May, earl Temple, mr. May, dr. Duigenan, earl Temple, mr. Hutchinson, lord Henry Petty
522
1805. Feb. 18. The budget—the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer
543
1805. Feb. 19. Irish habeas corpus suspension bill—Sir Evan Nepean, mr. R. Martin, the speaker, lord Henry Petty, mr. R. Martin
560
Report of the budget—Mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Johnstone, mr. Francis, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. John
stone, the chancellor of the exchequer
562
Salt duty bill—Colonel Calcraft, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Sheridan, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Egerton, mr. Kinnaird, mr. Rose, colonel Calcraft, mr. Johnstone
565
Horse duty bill—Sir Robert Buxton, mr. Windham, the chancellor of the exchequer, sir Robert Buxton, mr. H. Lascelles, mr. Fuller, the chancellor of the exchequer
569
1805. Feb. 21. Defence of the country—Mr. Windham, mr. Canning, mr. Windham, sir William Young
590
1805. Feb. 22. Conduct of sir Home Popham—Sir William Burroughs, sir Charles Pole, mr. Grey, mr. Canning, mr. Grey, sir Charles Pole
627
Horse duty bill—mr. Fox, sir Robert Buxton
629
1805. Feb. 27. Repeal of the additional force bill—Mr. Whitbread, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Sheridan, mr. Whitbread, sir Robert Buxton, mr. Whitbread
634
Conduct of sir Home Popham—Mr. Grey, sir William Burroughs, admiral Markham, mr. Grey, mr. Sturges Bourne, mr. Grey, the chancellor of the exchequer, sir Home Popham, admiral Markham, mr. Grey, mr. Canning, admiral Markham
635
1805. Feb. 28. Mutiny bill—General Fitzpatrick
640
Slave trade—Mr. Wilberforce, the speaker, general Gascoyne, mr. C. Brooke, sir William Young, mr. Barham, general Tarleton, mr. Fuller, mr. Hiley Addington, sir William Pulteney, mr. Fox, mr. Huddlestone, the chancellor of the exchequer, general Gas-
coyne, mr. Wilberforce, earl Temple, the chancellor of the exchequer
641
1805. March 1. Salt duty bill—Lord William Russell
677
Horse duty bill—The chancellor of the exchequer
677
Commission of naval enquiry—Mr. Giles, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Martin, sir William Elford, the chancellor of the exchequer, sir William Elford, Mr. Sheridan, sir William Elford, mr. Grey, sir Charles Pole, sir William Elford, sir Charles Pole, admiral Markham, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Creevey, mr. Fox, mr. Canning, mr. Fox, sir Charles Pole, mr. Bragge Bathurst, lord Henry Petty, mr. I. H. Browne, mr. Tierney, the chancellor of the exchequer
677
1805. March 4. Mutiny bill—The secretary at war, general Fitzpatrick
695
Salt duly bill—Lord William Russell, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, mr. Egerton, mr. Giddy, sir W. Pulteney, mr. Rose, mr. Fox, mr. Rose, mr. alderman Combe, the secretary at war, mr. Huskisson, mr. Johnstone
696
1805. March 5. Corn regulation bill—The secretary at war, lord Archibald Hamilton, sir William Elford
706
Orders of the day—Mr. C. Wynne, mr. Fuller, mr. Huskisson, mr. C. Wynne, mr. Martin
707
Mutiny bill—the secretary at war, colonel Stuart, the secretary at war, sir Eyre Coote
707
Salt duty bill—Mr. Johnstone, mr. Huskisson
709
Property tax bill—Earl Temple, the chancellor of the exchequer, sir John Newport, mr. Alexander, sir John Newport, the chancellor of the exchequer, sir John Newport, mr. Bankes, the chancellor of the exchequer
710
1805. March 6. Repeal of the additional force bill—mr. Sheridan, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Windham, general Norton, mr. Langham, colonel Stewart, mr. Whitbread, Mr. Bragge Bathurst, lord Archibald Hamilton, mr. Fuller, mr. Tierney, mr. Fox, lord Castlereagh, mr. Johnstone, mr. Sheridan
723
1805. March 7. Salt duty bill—Mr. Johnstone, mr. Rose, mr. Kinnaird, mr. Huskisson, mr. Hurst, colonel Calcraft, mr. W. Smith, mr. Sturges Bourne, mr. Fox
788
1805. March 8. Middlesex election—Mr. Sheridan, lord Marsham, mr. Fox, the master of the rolls, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Sheridan, mr. Fuller, mr. Sheridan, mr. Fox, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Adam, the chancellor of the exchequer
829
1805. March 11. Middlesex election—Mr. Adam, the speaker, mr. Rose, mr. P. Moore, lord Marsham, the solicitor general, mr. W. Smith, sir W. W. Wynne, lord Henniker, mr. W. Smith, mr. Fox, mr. C. Wynne, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Fox, lord Marsliam, the attorney general, mr. W. Smith, the chancellor of the exchequer
839
1805. March 12. Mutiny bill—General Fitzpatrick, sir James Pulteney, the secretary at war, earl Temple, mr. S. Bourne, sir Eyre Coote, mr. Fuller, the chancellor of the exchequer, lord De Blaquiere, sir W. W. Wynne, colonel Frankland, colonel Stewart, general Stewart, sir J. Pulteney, sir J. Wrottesley
857
Agricultural horse duty bill—Mr. Plumer, the chancellor of the exchequer, mr. Coke, sir W. W. Wynne, mr. Fox, mr. Giles, mr. Canning, mr. Grey
861
Salt duty bill—the chancellor of the exchequer
864
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS, REPORTS, PETITIONS, LISTS, &c.
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
Page.
The king's speech on opening the session
1
Address of the lords on the king's speech
6
Address of the commons on the king's speech
27
The king's answer to the address of the commons
47
Papers relative to the discussion with Spain in 1803 and 1804, presented by his majesty's command to both houses of parliament, 24th Jan. 1805
61
Declaration relative to the war with Spain, dated Downing-street, Jan. 1805
124
First additional papers, relative to the discussion with Spain in 1803 and 1804, presented by his majesty's command to both houses of parliament, 2d Feb. 1805
171
Second additional papers, relative to the discussion with Spain in 1803 and 1804, presented by his majesty's command to both houses of parliament, 4th Feb. 1805
229
Third additional papers, relative to the discussion with Spain in 1803 and 1804, presented by his majesty's command to both houses of parliament, 6th Feb. 1805
289
REPORTS.
FIRST RETORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 12th May, 1803
865
Naval Storekeepers at Jamaica
ibid.
SECOND REPORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 6th June, 1803
886
Chest at Chatham
ibid.
THIRD REPORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 13th June, 1803
899
Block Contract
ibid.
Cooper's Contract
913
FOURTH REPORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 18th July, 1803
918
Prize Agency
ibid.
Irregularities, Abuses, and Frauds
926
Plan of a General Prize Office
935
FIFTH REPORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 10th August, 1803
946
Sixpenny Office
ibid.
SIXTH REPORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 2d May, 1804
967
Plymouth Yard
ibid.
Irregularities and Abuses
1058
Woolwich Yard
1071
SEVENTH REPORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 11th July, 1804
1083
Navy Hospital at East Stonehouse
ibid.
Le Caton Hospital Ship?
1097
EIGHTH REPORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 16th July, 1804
1101
Victualling Department at Plymouth
ibid.
Embezzlement of the King's Casks
1111
NINTH REPORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 16th January, 1805
1120
Receipt and Issue of Stores in Plymouth Yard
ibid.
TENTH RETORT of the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; ordered to be printed 13th February, 1805
1147
The Office of the Treasurer of his Majesty's Navy
ibid.
PETITIONS.
Petition of the electors of the borough of Knaresborough
59
Petition of the sheriffs of Middlesex* relative to the election in 1802
133
Petition of the electors of Middlesex against the return of George Bolton Mainwaring, esq.
139
Petition of the electors of Middlesex, relative to the qualification of George Bolton Mainwaring, esq
147
Petition of the Sierra Leone Company
676
LISTS.
List of his majesty's ministers as it stood in March, 1805
xii
Lists of the members of the house of commons
xiii
List of the minority in the commons, on the first reading of the Irish habeas corpus suspension bill, Feb. 8, 1805
336
List of the minority in the lords, on the discussion of the papers relative to the war with Spain, Feb. 11, 1805
354
List of the minority in the commons, on the discussion of the papers relative to the war with Spain, Feb. 11, 1805
468
List of the minority in the lords, on earl Darnley's motion for the repeal of the additional force bill, Feb. 15, 1805
519
List of the minority in the commons, on the motion for going info a committee on the Irish habeas corpus bill, Feb. 15, 1805
535
List of the minority in the commons, on mr. Windham's motion for a committee on the defence of the country, Feb. 21, 1805
626
List of the minority in the commons, on mr. Giles's motion for leave to bring in a bill to continue the act appointing commissioners for naval enquiry, March 1, 1805
693
List of the minority in the commons, on mr. Sheridan's motion for the repeal of the additional force bill, March 6, 1805
786
List of the minority in the lords, on lord King's motion for a committee on the defence of the country, March 8, 1805
821
LIST OF HIS MAJESTY'S MINISTERS AS IT STOOD IN MARCH, 1805.
Cabinet Ministers.
Lord viscount Sidmouth
President of the council.
Lord Eldon
Lord high chancellor
The earl of Westmoreland
Lord privy seal
Right hon. William Pitt
First lord of the treasury, and chancellor of the exchequer, (prime minister).
Viscount Melville
First lord of the Admiralty.
Earl of Chatham
Master general of the ordnance.
Lord Hawkesbury
Secretary of state for the home department.
Lord Mulgrave
Secretary of state for foreign affairs.
Earl Camden
Secretary of state for the department of war, and the colonies.
Lord viscount Castlereagh
President of the board of controul for the affairs of India.
The earl of Buckinghamshire
Chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster.
Not of the Cabinet.
Right hon. William Dundas
Secretary at war.
Right hon. George Canning,
Treasurer of the navy.
Right hon. George Rose
Joint paymasters of his majesty's forces.
Right hon. lord Charles Somerset
The duke of Montrose
Joint postmasters general.
Lord Charles Spencer
William Huskisson, esq.
Secretaries of the treasury.
Sturges Bourne, esq.
Sir William Grant
Master of the rolls.
Hon. Spencer Perceval
Attorney general.
Sir Vicary Gibbs
Solicitor general.
PERSONS IN THE MINISTRY OF IRELAND.
Earl of Hardwicke
Lord lieutenant.
Lord Redesdale
Lord high chancellor.
Right hon. Nicholas Vansittart
Chief secretary.
Right hon. John Foster
Chancellor of the exchequer.
AN ALPHABETICAL LIST OF THE HOUSE OF COMMONS,
As it stood at the opening of the Session, November
Abbot, rt. hon. Charles, Speaker, Woodstoc
Abercrombie, Hn. George, Edinburgh city
Acheson, hon. Archibald, Armagh county
Adair, Robert, Camelford
Adams, Chas. Weymouth, &c.
Adams, James, Harwich
Adams, William, Totness
Addington, rt. hon. Jn. Hiley, Harwich
Ainslie, Rt. Sharpe, Midshall
Alexander, Boyd, Glasgow, &c.
Alexander, Henry, Old Sarum
Allan, Alexander, Berwick
Althorp, visct. Okehampton
Amyatt, James, Southampton
Anderson, sir John Wm. bart. London
Andover, viscount, Arundel
Andrews, Miles Pet. Bewdley
Annesley, Francis, Reading
Anson, Thomas, Lichfield
Antonie, Wm. Lee, Bedford
Archdall, Mervin, jun. Fermanagh county
Archdall, Richard, Dundalk
Ashley, hn. Cropley, Dorchester
Astley, sir Jacob Henry, bart. Norfolk county
Atkins, John, Arundel
Aubrey, sir Jn. bart. Aldeburgh
Babington, Thomas, Leicester
Bagwell, Jn. Tipperary county
Bagwell, Wm. Clonmell boro'
Bagenell, Walter, Catherlogh county
Baillie, Evan, Bristol
Baillie, Geo. jun. Berwickshire
Baker, John, Canterbury
Baker, Pet. Wm. Wootton Basset
Baker, Wm. Hertfordshire
Baldwin, Wm. Westbury
Bampfylde, sir Cb. W. bt. Exeter
Bankes, Henry, Corff Castle
Barclay, George, Bridport
Barclay, sir Rt. bt. Newton, Hants
Barham, Jos. Foster, Stockbridge
Baring, sir Francis, bart. Chipping Wycombe
Barlow, Francis Wm. Coventry
Barlow, Hugh, Pembroke
Barne, Snowdon, Dunwich
Bastard, Edmund, Dartmouth
Bastard, Jn. Pollex. Devonshire
Bathurst, hon. Cha. Bristol
Beach, Mich. Hicks, Cirencester
Beaumont, Tho. Rd. Northumberland
Bennet, R. H. A. Launceston
Beayon, Richard, Pontefract
Beresford, 1d. Geo. T. Londonderry county
Beresford, rt. hn. Jn. Waterford co.
Berkeley, hon. Geo. Cranfield, Gloucestershire
Bernard, Tho. King's county
Bertie, Albemarle, Stamford
Best, Wm. Draper, Petersfield
Binning, lord, St. Germain
Bishopp, sir C. bt. New Shoreham
Blackburne, John, Lancashire
Blackburn, Jn. Newport, Hants
Bligh, Tho. Meath county
Bloxam, sir Mat. kt. Maidstone
Bond, rt. hon. Nath. Corff Castle
Bootle, Edw. Wilbr. Newcastle under Line
Bouverie, hn. Ed. Northampton
Boyle, visct. Cork county
Bradshaw, hon. Aug. Cavendish, Honiton
Bradshaw, Rt. Haldane, Bracley
Brandling, Ch. J. Newcastle on Tyne
Brodie, James, Elginshire
Brodrick, hon. W. Whitchurch
Brogden, James, Launceston
Brome, viscount, Suffolk
Brooke, Chas. Ivelchester
Brooke, lord, Warwick
Brooke, T. Newton, Lancashire
Browne, right hon. Denis, Mayo county
Browne, F. John, Dorsetshire
Browne, Is. Hawk. Bridgenorth
Bruce, Pat. Craufurd, Evesham
Bruce, lord, Marlborough
Buller, Edward, East Looe
Buller, James, Exeter
Buller, John, East Looe
Bullock, John, Essex
Bunbury, sir T. C. bt. Suffolk
Burdett, sir F. bt. Middlesex
Burdon, Row. Durham county
Burroughs, sir W. bt. Enniskillen
Burton, Francis, Oxford city
Burton, hon. F. Nath. Clare co.
Burton, Nap. Christie, Beverley
Butler, hon. Ch. Kilkenny city
Butler, hon. Jas. Kilkenny co.
Buxton, sir R. John, bt. Bedwin
Byng, George, Middlesex
Calcraft, John, Wareham
Calvert, John, Huntingdon
Calvert, Nicolson, Hertford
Campbell, Alex. Anstruther, &c.
Campbell, Jn. Rothsay, &c.
Campbell, lord Jn. D. E. H. Argyllshire
Canning, rt. hon. Geo. Tralee
Carew, rt. hn. Reg. P. Fowey
Carnegie, sir D. bt. Forfarshire
Cartwright, W. R. Northamptonshire
Castlereagh, visct Down county
Cavendish, lord Geo. Aug. Hen. Derbyshire
Cavendish, Wm. Aylesbury
Caulfeild, hon. H. Armagh co.
Chaplin, Chas. Lincolnshire
Chapman, C. Newton, Hants
Chester, Chas. Castle-Rising
Chichester, lord Spencer Stanley, Carricfergus
Chinnery, sir B. bart. Bandonbridge
Cholmondeley, Tho. Cheshire
Chute, William, Hampshire
Clements, H. J. Leitrimshire
Clephane, David, Kinross-shire
Clive, hon. Robert, Ludlow
Clive, Wm. Bishop's Castle
Cochrane, hon. Alex. Forrester, Dumfarmlin, &c.
Cockerell, Charles, Tregony
Cocks, hon. John Sommers, Ryegate
Codrington, Chris. Tewkesbury
Coke, D. Parker, Nottingham
Coke, Edward, Derby
Coke, Thos. Wm. Norfolk
Cole, hon. G. L. Fermanagh co.
Colquhoun, J. jun. Dumbartonshire
Combe, Harv. Chris. London
Cooke, Bryan, Malton
Cooper, Josh. Ed Sligo county
Coote, sir Eyre, K. B. Queen's county
Cornewall, sir Geo, A. bt. Herefordshire
Cornwallis, James, Eye
Cornwallis, hon. Wm. Eye
Corry, rt. hon. Isaac, Newry
Courtenay, John, Appleby
Cowper, hon. Edw. Spencer, Hertford
Cranley, visct. Guildford
Craufurd, Rt. East Retford
Creevy, Thomas, Thetford
Crosble, Jas. Kerry county
Cumming, Geo. Fortrose, &c.
Curtis, sir Wm. bart. London
Curwen, Jn. Chris. Carlisle
Curzon, hon. Robt. Clitheroe
Cust, hon. John, Clitheroe
Dalkeith, earl of, Midshall
Dallas, Rt. Kirkcaldy, &c.
Dalrymple, J. Haddington, &c.
Daly, Denis B. Galway town
Daniell, Ral. Allen, West Looe
Dashwood, sir H. W. bt. Woodstoc
Dawkins, James, Chippenham
Dawson, Rich. Monaghan co.
De Blaquiere, 1d. K. B. Downton
Denison, John, Colchester
Dent, John, Lancaster
Devaynes, Wm. Barnstaple
Deverell, Robert, Saltash
Dick, Quintin, West Looe
Dickins, Frs. Northamptonshire
Dickinson, Wm. Somersetshire
Dickinson, W. jun. Lestwithiel
Dickson, Wm. Selkirk, &c.
Dillon, hon. H. Aug. Mayo co.
Dolben, sir W. bt. Oxford Univ.
Douglas, sir G. bt. Roxburghsh.
Douglas, marquis of, Lancaster
Drake, Th. Tyr. Agmondesham
Dugdale, Stratford Dugdale, Warwickshire
Duigenan, P. Armagh borough
Duncombe, Chas. Aldborough
Dundas, Charles, Berks
Dundas, hon. Geo. H. L. Richmond
Dundas, hon. Laurence, York
Dundas, hon. R. Edinburghshire
Dundas. rt. hn. W. Sutherlandsh.
Duncannon, visct. Knaresboro'
Dunlo, visct. Galway county
Dupré, James, Aylesbury
Durand, Jn. Hodson, Maidstone
Ebrington, visct. Barnstaple
Egerton, W. Tatton, Cheshire
Elford, sir W. bt. Plymouth
Eliot, hon. Wm. Leskeard
Elliot, Wm. Peterborough
Ellis, Chas. Rose, Seaford
Ellison, Richard, Lincoln
Elphinstone-Fleeming, hon. C. Surlingshire
Erskine, hon. T. Portsmouth
Erskine, sir W. bt. Fifeshire
Estcourt, Thomas, Criclade
Estcourt, T. Grimst. Devizes
Everett, Thomas, Ludgershall
Euston, earl of, Cam. University
Eyre, Ant. H. Nottinghamshire
Falkiner, F. J. Dublin county
Fane, Francis, Dorchester
Fane, Henry, Lime Regis
Fane, John, Oxfordshire
Fane, hon. T. Lime Regis
Farquhar, J. Brechin, &c.
Fellowes, hon. Newton, Andover
Fellowes, Robert, Norwich
Fellowes, W. H. Huntingdon
Ferguson, J. Aberdeenshire
Fetherstone, sir T. bt. Longford county
Finch, hon. Edw. Cambridge
Fitzgerald, rt. hon. Jas. Ennis
Fitzgerald, rt. hn. M. Kerry co.
Fitzgerald, ld. Rt. S. Kildare co
Fitzgerald, R. Un. Cork county
Fitz-Harris, visct. Horsham
Fuzhugh, Wm. Tiverton
Fitzpatrick, rt. hon. R. Tavistoc
Fitzroy, ld. Chas. Edmundshury
Fitzwilliam, visct. Wilton
Fletcher, sir H. bt. Cumberland
Foley, hon. Andrew, Droitwich
Foley, Thomas, Droitwich
Foljambe, F. Fer. Higham Ferrer
Folkes, sir M. B. bt. King's Lynn
Folkestone, visct. New Sarum
Fonblanque, John, Camelford
Forester, Cecil, Wcnloe
Fortescue, W. C. Louth county
Foster, rt. hon. J. Louth county
Fox, hon. C. J. Westminster
Francis, Philip, Appleby
Frankland, Wm. Thirsk
Frederick, sir J. bt. Surrey
French, Arth. Roscommon co.
Fuller, John, Sussex
Fydell, Tho. jun. Boston
Gamon, sir R. bt. Winchester
Gardner, lord, Westminster
Garland, George, Poole
Garrow, William, Gatton
Garthshore, W. Weymouth, &c.
Gascoyne, Isaac, Liverpool
Geary, sir Wm. bart. Kent
Gibbs, sir Vic. kt. Totness
Giddy, Davies, Helston
Giles, Dan. East Grinstead
Glenbervie, lord, Hastings
Goddard, Amb. Wiltshire
Godfrey, Thomas, Hythe
Golding, Edward, Plympton
Gower, ld. G. L. Staffordshire
Gower, Edw. Leverson, Truro
Graham, sir Jas. bart. Ripon
Graham, Jas. Cockermouth
Graham, Thomas, Perthshire
Grant, Chas. Inverness-shire
Grant, Francis W. Cullen, &c.
Grant, right hon. sir Wm. knt. Bamffshire
Grattan, Henry, Malton
Greene, W. Dungarvon borough
Gregor, Francis, Cornwall
Grenfell, Pascoe, jun. Marlow
Grenville, rt. hn. T. Buckingham
Grevile, hn. R. Fulk, Windsor
Grey, hn. C. Northumberland
Grimstone, hn. J. W. St. Alban's
Grosvenor, Richard Erle Drax, Chester
Grosvenor, Thomas, Chester
Gunning, G. W. Hastings
Hamilton, ld. A. Lanerkshire
Hamilton, sir C. bt. Dungannon
Hamilton, Hans, Dublin county
Hamilton, sir H. Dalrymple, bt. Ayrshire
Hammet, John, Taunton
Hamond, sir A. S. bt. Ipswich
Hardman, E. Drogheda co. & tn.
Harrison, John, Thetford
Hartopp, Sir E.C. bt. Leicestersh.
Harvey, Eliab, Essex
Hawkins, sir C. bt. Grampound
Hawthorn, C. S. Downpatric
Heathcote, sir G. bt. Lincolnshire
Heathcote, John, Ripon
Heathcote, sir W. bt. Hampshire
Henderson, Ant. Bracley
Henniker, lord, Rutland
Hill, sir G, Fitz. bt. Londonderry city
Hill, sir Rich. bt. Shropshire
Hill, hon. Wm. Shrewsbury
Hilliard, Edward, Horsham
Hinchingbrook, visct. Huntingdonshire
Hippisley, sir J. C. bt. Sudbury
Hobhouse, Benj. Grampound
Hodson, John, Wigan
Holdsworth, A.H. Dartmouth
Holford, G. P. Bossiney
Holland, H. jun. Okehampton
Holland, sir N. bt. Great Bedwin
Honyman, R. Orkneyshire
Honywood, Filmer, Kent
Honywood, sir J. bt. Honiton
Hope, hn. A. Linlithgowshire
Hope, hn. C. Haddingtonshire
Hope, W. J. Dumfriesshire
Horrocks, Samuel, Preston
Howard, Henry, Gloucester
Hudleston, John, Bridgewater
Hughes, W. L. Wallingford
Hulkes, James, Rochester
Hume, W. H. Wicklow county
Huntingfield, lord, Dunwich
Hurst, Robt. Shaftesbury
Huskisson, Wm. Leskeard
Hussey, Wm. New Sarum
Hutchinson, hn. C. H. Cork city
Jaffray, John, East Retford
Jeffery, John, Poole
Jekyll, Joseph, Calne
Jephson, Denham, Mallow
Jervis, T. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Jervoise, J. C. Yarmouth, I. W.
Inglis, sir H. bt. Ashburton
Joddrell, Henry, Bramber
Johnes, Thos. Cardiganshire
Johnstone, George, Heydon
Joliffe, Hylton, Petersfield
Jones, T. T. Athlone borough
Jones, W. Coleraine borough
Keane, Sir Jn. bt. Youghall
Keck, G. A. L. Leicestershire
Keene, Whitshed, Montgomery
Kensington, ld. Haverfordwest
Ker, R. G. Newport, Hants
King, hn. E. Roscommon county
King, sir J. Dashwood, bt. Chipping-Wycombe
Kingston, Join, Lymington
Kinnaird, hon. Chs. Leominster
Kirkwall, visct. Heytesbury
Knight, Rich. Payne, Ludlow
Knox, hn. G. Trinity Col. Dub.
Kynaston-Powell, J. Shropshire
Ladbroke, Robt. Winchilsea
Lamb, Thos. Davis, Rye
Lambton, Ralph Jn. Durham
Langham, Jas. St. Germain
Langmead, Philip, Plymouth
Langton, W. G. Somersetshire
Lascellcs, hn. E. Northallerton
Lascelles, hn. H. Yorkshire
Latouche, D. Catherlogh co.
Latouche, J. jun. Dublin city
Latouche, P. jun. Leitrim co.
Latouche, R. Kildare county
Laurence, F. Peterborough
Lawley, sir R. bt. Newcas. un. E.
Lee, E. Waterford county
Lefevre, Cha. Shaw, Reading
Le Fleming, sir M. bt. Westmorland
Leigh, J. H. Marlborough
Leigh, Robt. Holt, Wigan
Leland, John, Stamford
Lemon, John, Truro
Lemon, sir W. bt. Cornwall
Lenox, Charles, Sussex
Leslie, Ch. P. Monaghan co.
Leycester, H. Milborne Port
Littleton, sir E. bt. Staffordshire
Lloyd, Jas. Martin, Steyning
Loftus, carl, Wexford county
Loftus, Wm. Tamworth
Long, rt. hon. Cha. Wendover
Longfield, M. Cork city
Lopez, Manas. New Romney
Lovaine, lord, Beeralston
Loveden, E. L. Shaftesbury
Lowther, Jas. Westmorland
Lowther, John, Cumberland
Lubbock, John, Leominster
Lushington, sir S. bt. Penryn
Luttrell, Jn. F. Minehead
Lygon, Wm. Worcestershire
Macdowall, Wm. Renfrewshire
Mackenzie-Frazer, A. Cromartyshire
M'Mahon, John, Aldeburgh
Macnaghten, E. A. Antrim co.
Madocks, W. A. Boston
Magens, M. D. Ludgershall
Maitland, John, Chippenham
Mann, sir Horace, bt. Sandwich
Manners, 1d. C. S. Cambridgesh.
Manners, John, Ivelchester
Manners, 1d. R. Scarborough
Manners, Robert, Cambridge
Manning, Wm. Lymington
Markham, John, Portsmouth
Marsham, visct, Downton
Martin, James, Tewkesbury
Martin, Rich. Galway county
Mathew, visct. Tipperary co.
Matthews, Jn. M.D. Herefordsh.
May, Edward, Belfast
Mellish, Wm. Great Grimsby
Metcalfe, Philip, Plympton
Metcalfe, sir T. T. bt. Abingdon
Middleton, sir W. bt. Ipswich
Milbanke, sir R. bt. Durham co.
Mildmay, sir H. P. S. bt. Winchester
Milford, 1d. Pembrokeshire
Mills, Charles, Warwic
Mills, G. Galway, Wallingford
Milner, sir W. M. ban. York
Mitford, W. Bceralston
Moffat, W. Winchilsea
Moncton, hon. Ed. Stafford
Montagu, 1d. Fr. Huntingdonsh.
Montgomery, rt. hon. sir Jas. bt. Peeblesshire
Moore, Charles, Heytesbury
Moore, G. P. Queenborough
Moore, Peter, Coventry
Mordaunt, C. Warwickshire
Morgan, rt. hn. sir Chas. bt. Breconshire
Morgan, Chas. Monmouthshire
Morland, Wm. Taunton
Morpeth, visct. Morpeth
Morris, E. Newport, Cornwall
Mostyn, Sir T. bart. Flintshire
Mundy, E.M. Derbyshire
Nepean, rt. hn. sir E. bt. Bridport
Neville, hn. Rich. Thirsk
Neville, Rich. Wexford town
Newborough, lord, Beaumaris
Newcomen, hn. T. G. Longford county
Newport, sir J. bt. Waterford city
Nicholl, sir J. knt. Penryn
Norman, Rich. Bramber
North, Dudley, Banbury
Northey, W. Newport, Cornw.
Norton, hn. J. C. Guildford
O'Brien, sir E. bt. Clare county
Odell, W. Limeric county
O'Hara, Chas. Sligo county
Oliver, C. S. Limeric county
O'Neil, hn. J. R. B. Antrim co.
Orchard, Paul, Callington
Ord, William, Morpeth
Ormsby, C.M. Catherlogh boro'
Osborne, 1d. F. G. Lewes
Oshorn, John, Bedfordshire
Ossulston, lord, Steyning
Paget, rt. hon. sir Arthur, K.B. Anglesey
Paget, hn. C. Milborne Port
Paget, hn. Edw. Carnarvon
Palk, sir Laur. bt. Devonshire
Palk, Walter, Ashburton
Palmer, John, Bath
Patten, P. Newton, Lancashire
Patteson, John, Minchead
Paxton, sir W. knt. Carmarthen
Pedley, John, Hindoo
Peel, sir Rt. bt. Tamworth
Peirse, Henry, Northallerton
Pelham. hn. C.A. Great Grimsby
Penn, John, Helston
Penn, Richard, Haslemere
Perceval, hon. S. Northampton
Petty, lord Henry, Calne
Phipps, hon Ed. Scarborough
Pierrepont, hn. C. H. Nottinghamshire
Pitt, John, Gloucester
Pitt, rt. hn. W. Cambridge Univ.
Pitt, W. Morton, Dorsetshire
Plumer, Wm. Hertfordshire
Pocock, Geo. Bridgewater
Pole, sir C. M. bt. Newark
Pole, hn, W. W. Queen's county
Ponsonby, Geo. Widow county
Ponsonby, rt. hn. Wm. Bra. Kilkenny county
Popham, sir H. K. M. Yarmouth, Isle of Wight
Porcher, J. Dupré, Bodmyn
Porchester, lord, Criclade
Porter, George, Stockbridge
Portman, E. B. Boroughbridge
Poyntz, W. Step. St. Albans
Praed, Wm. St. Ives
Preston, sir R. bt. Cirencester
Price, sir Chas. bt. London
Price, Rich. New Radnor
Prinsep, John, Queenborough
Proby, visct. Buckingham
Pultency, sir J. bt. Weymouth, &c.
Pulteney, sir W. bt. Shrewsbury
Pytches, John, Sudbury
Raine, Jonathan, St. Ives
Ram, Abel, Wexford county
Ridley, sir M. White, bt. Newcastle on Tyne
Robarts, Abram, Worcester
Robinson, J. Bishop's Castle
Rochfort, G. Westmeath county
Rooke, Jas. Monmouthshire
Rose, rt. hn. Geo. Christchurch
Rose, G. H. Southampton
Ross, sir C. bt. Ross-shire
Kowley, S. M. Kinsale town
Russell, Matth. Saltash
Russell, lord Wm. Surrey
Rutherford, J. Selkirkshire
Ryder, hon. R. Tiverton
St. John, Ambrose, Callington
St. John, hon. St And. Bedfordshire
Salusbury, sir Rt. bt. Brecon
Sargent, rt. hn. John, Bodmyn
Savage, Francis, Down county
Savile, Christopher, Heydon
Saunderson, Francis, Cavan co.
Scott, Claude, Malmesbury
Scott, David, St. Andrew's, &c.
Scott, hn. John, Boroughbridge
Scott, Joseph, Worcester
Scott, Samuel, Malmesbury
Scott, rt, hon. sir William, knt. Oxford University
Scudamore, R. P. Hereford
Seymour, lord Robert, Orford
Shafto, Rt. E. D. Durham city
Shakespeare, Arth. Richmond
Shaw, Robert, Dublin city
Sheldon, Ralph, Wilton
Shelley, Henry, jun. Lewes
Shelley, T. New Shoreham
Sheridan, R. B. Stafford
Sibthorp, Hum. W. Lincoln
Simpson, hon. J. Wenloc
Sinclair, sir J. bart. Buteshire
Sitwell, Francis, Berwick
Sloane, Hans, Lestwithiel
Smith, Charles, Westbury
Smith, Geovge, Midhurst
Smith, John, Wendover
Smith, John Spencer, Dover
Smith, Joshua, Devizes
Smith, Samuel, Leicester
Smith, Tho. Asheton, Andover
Smith, William, Norwich
Smith, Wm. Westmeath county
Smith, sit William Sidney, knt. K. C. Rochester
Smyth, rt. hn. John, Pontefract
Sneyd, Nath. Cavan county
Somerset, 1d. C. H. Monmouth
Somerset, 1d. R. E. H. Gloucestershire
Somerville, sir M. bt. Meath co.
Spencer, 1d. F. A. Oxfordshire
Spencer, lord Robt. Tavistoc
Stanhope, W. Spencer, Carlisle
Stamforth, J. Kingston-on-Hull
Stanley, lord, Preston
Stanley, Thomas, Lancashire
Steele, Robert, Weobly
Steele, rt. hn. Thos. Chichester
Stephens, sir Ph. bt. Sandwich
Steward, G.T Weymouth, &.c.
Stewart, hn. C. W. Londonderry, county
Stewart, sir J. bt. Donegall co.
Stewart, Jas. Tyrone county
Stewart, rt. hn. sir John, bart. Tyrone county
Stewart, hn. M. Kircudbright
Stewart, hn. W. Stranraer, &c.
Stopford, visct. Annan, &c.
Strachey, sir H. bt. East Grinstead
Strahan, Andrew, Wareham
Strutt, Joseph Holden, Malden
Stuart, 1d. Wm. Cardiff
Stuart, W. J. A. Bossiney
Stuart, sir J. bt. Kinkardineshire
Sturges-Bourne, W. Christchurch
Sudley, visct. Donegall county
Sullivan, rt. hn. J. Aldborough
Sullivan, sir R. J. bt. Seaford
Symonds, T. P. Hereford
Talbot, sir Ch. H. bt. Rye
Tarleton, Banastre, Liverpool
Taylor, Ch. W. Wells
Temple, earl, Bucks
Templetown, 1d. St. Edmundsbury
Thellusson, Chas. Evesham
Thellusson, Geo. W. Tregony
Thellusson, P. I. Castle Rising
Thomas, Geo. White, Chichester
Thornton, Henry, Southwark
Thornton, Robt. Colchester
Thornton, S. Kingston on Hull
Thoroton, Thomas, Grantham
Thynne, lord Geo. Weobly
Thynne, lord John, Bath
Tierney, rt. hn. G. Southwark
Titchfield, marquis of, Bucks
Tottenham, C. jun. New Ross
Townshend, 1d. J. Knaresboro'
Townshend, hn. W. A. Whitchurch
Trail, James, Orford
Trevanion, John, Dover
Troubridge, sir Thos. bt. Yarmouth, Norfolk
Tudway, Clement, Wells
Turnor, E. jun. Midhurst
Tyrwhitt-Drake, Thos. Drake, Agmondesham
Tyrwhitt, Thos. Portarlington
Vansittart, Arth. jun. Windsor
Vansittart, Geo. Berkshire
Vansittart, rt. hn. N. Old Sarum
Vanghan, hn. John, Cardigan
Vaughan, sir Rt. W. bt. Merionethshire
Vereker, Chas. Limeric city
Villiers, rt. hn. J. C. Dornoc, &c.
Wallace, rt. hn. T. Hindon
Walpole, hn. Geo. Derby
Walpole, hn. H. King's Lynn
Walsh, sir J. B. bt. Blechingly
Ward, hn. J. W. Worcestershire
Ward, Robt. Cockermouth
Warren, rt. hn. sir J. B. bt. K. B. and K. C. Nottingham
Watson, hn. Geo. Canterbury
Welby, sir W. E. bt. Grantham
West, hn. Fred. Denbigh
Western, Cha. C Malden
Wharton, John, Beverley
Whitbread, Samuel, Bedford
white, Matthew, Hythe
Whitmore, John, Bridgenorth
Wickham, rt. hn. Wm. Cashell
Wigram, Robert, Fowey
Wilberforce, W. Yorkshire
Wilkins, Walter, Radnorshire
Willet, Jn. W. New Romney
Williams, J. H. Carmarthenshire
Williams, Owen, Marlow
Williams, sir Rt. bt. Carnarvonshire
Williams, R. Wootton Basset
Williams, Watkin, Flint
Willoughby, Henry, Newark
Windham, rt. hn. W. St. Mawes
Wood, George, Haslemere
Wood, Mark, Gatton
Wright, J. A. Oxford city
Wrottesley, sir J. bt. Lichfield
Wyndham, Hen. P. Wiltshire
Wyndham, T. Glamorganshire
Wynn, sir W. W. bt. Denbighsh.
Wynne, C. W. W. Montgomeryshire
Wynne, Owen, Sligo borough
Yarmouth, earl of, Lisburne
Yorke, hn. J. S. Ryegate
Yorke, rt. hon. C. Cambridgesh
Young, sir W. bt. St. Mawes
COBBETT'S Parliamentary Debates,
During the Third Session of the Second Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and of the Kingdom of Great Britain the Nineteenth, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Fourth Day of September, 1804, and from thence continued, by several Prorogations, to the Fifteenth Day of January, in the Forty-fifth Year of the Reign of King GEORGE the Third, Annoque Domini,
1805.
1
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, January 15, 1805.
This day, at three o'clock, his Majesty came down in state to the House of Peers and opened the session of parliament. His Majesty being seated upon the throne in his royal robes, Mr. Quarme, the deputy usher of the black rod, was sent to the commons to demand the immediate attendance of that house. The speaker, accompanied by several members, forthwith appeared at the bar, when his Majesty was pleased to deliver the following most gracious speech:
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"Since the end of the last session, the preparations of the enemy for the invasion of this kingdom have been continued with incessant activity; but no attempt has been made to carry their repeated menaces into effect.—The skill and intrepidity of my Navy, the respectable and formidable state of my Army and Militia, the unabated zeal and improved discipline of a numerous Volunteer Force, and the general ardour manifested by all classes of my subjects, have indeed been sufficient to deter them from so presumptuous and desperate an enterprise. While this spirit continues to animate the country, and its voluntary exertions for its own defence subsist in their full vigour, we need not fear the consequences of the most powerful efforts on the part of the enemy. But let us never forget, that our security has arisen from the resolution with which we have met and provided against the danger, and that it can be preserved only by steady
2
3
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"I have directed the estimates for the public service to be laid before you. I regret the necessity of any additional burdens being imposed on my people; but I am sure you will be sensible how much their future safety and happiness depend on the vigour of our exertions, and that in the mode of raising the supplies, you will continue to shew your anxiety for the support of public credit, and for restraining, as much as possible, the accumulation of the national debt.
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"In considering the great efforts and sacrifices which the nature of the contest requires, it is a peculiar satisfaction to me to observe the many proofs of the internal wealth and prosperity of the country. It will, I am sure, be your great object to maintain and improve these advantages, and at the same time to take all such measures as, by enabling me to prosecute the war with vigour, may afford the best prospect of bringing it to a safe and honourable termination."
After his Majesty had left the house, lord viscount Sidmouth, late the right hon. Henry Addington, was introduced with; the accustomed formalities, sworn, and took his seat. His lordship's supporters were viscounts Wentworth and Sydney.— Lord St. Asaph, son of the earl of Ashburnhum, lately called up to the house by that title, was also introduced with the usual forms, and supported by lords Rivers and Walsmgliam.—Lord Caledon, one of
4
Lord Eliot
then rose for the purpose of moving an address to his Majesty, on his most gracious speech from the throne, and spoke as follows:—My Lords, it is not my wish to trouble your lordships at any great length in moving, as I shall have the honour to do, an humble address to his Majesty, in answer to the gracious communications his Majesty has just condescended to make to this house; but I think it necessary shortly to state the grounds on which I intend to found my motion for that address. The contest in which we are and which forms a Majesty's speech, is, the fate war, so closely connected with the cause of royalty, and so intimately interwoven with the essential interests of the country, that in adverting to the measures for supporting it, it seems to me, my lords, that the only question is, whether the address which I shall have the honour to move, be conformable to the usual practice of this house. I hope, in this point of view, it will not be considered as informal, and that it will receive the approbation of your lordships. The first point in his Majesty's speech is one on which, I am convinced, there can be but one opinion. That no invasion of this country has yet been attempted, notwithstanding the boast and menaces of the enemy, made even at the commencement of hostilities, is a subject which cannot fail to be gratifying to every person throughout the kingdom. Although it is true, that no apprehension need be entertained as to the event of an invasion, and convinced as I am, that no fear has been felt by the people as to the result of such an attempt, yet it ought not to be forgotten, that a desperate attempt at invasion made by a desperate enemy, would be productive of the most disastrous consequences. Notwithstanding the high state of preparation, however, in which our enemy has long been; notwithstanding it is a fact that, according to his own accounts, his armament for the purpose of invasion has long since been completed; notwithstanding the great display of ships and of forces on the opposite shore, our gasconading foe has never yet attempted to put his threat into execution. It must,
5
6
7
8
Lord Gwydir
rose to second the address, and spoke as follows:—My lords; after the most gracious speech we have this day heard delivered from the throne, and the extensive view which the noble lord has just taken of the address he has proposed, it will be unnecessary for me to trouble you with a long discussion of the subject under debate. But, as an Englishman, it
9
10
11
The Earl of Carlisle.
—I do not rise, my lords, to disturb that unanimity by which I am aware it is so much to be wished the house should be actuated on a subject of so much importance as the present. When I heard his Majesty's most gracious speech read, so cordially did I agree in every sentiment expressed in it, that I did not think it would have been necessary for me to say a single word on the subject. Some observations, however, which have fallen from the two noble lords who moved and seconded the address, seem to require some explanation. I, for one, am anxious to enter my protest against the supposition, that in agreeing to the address as proposed, I thereby pledge myself on a subject as to which the house is not in possession of the facts necessary to enable them to form a judgment. I allude, my lords, to the war with Spain. On that subject, whatever may be my own private opinion, whatever I may know as an individual which may induce me to think that the conduct of the govt. of this country has been correct or otherwise, this house is not in possession of such parliamentary information as can warrant it at present in expressing any opinion on the subject. As, however, the subject has been started, though I think the noble lords would have acted more discreetly in waving it, I must be excused in saying a few words on that point. The noble lord who spoke last has said, that we were not bound to sit tamely by while the Spanish court were supplying our enemies with money and other requisites for waning against us. This I am by no means inclined to dispute. But then, my lords, it would have been but fair and reasonable, in order that a war might not unnecessarily be plunged into, that some precise requisition on the subject should have been made to the Spanish court, and a day fixed for them to give their decisive answer, before hostile measures had been resorted to. I am anxious to know if this has been the case. It is necessary not only that a thing should be fair, equitable, and justifiable in itself, but that the manner in which it is commenced should likewise be fair, just, and agreeable to the known and established law of nations. There is in one part of this business too, an occur-
12
13
Lord Hawkesbury.
—My Lords; I feel proper to trouble your lordships with a few observations, in consequence of a part of what has fallen from the noble earl. There never existed an occasion on which general unanimity could be more justifiably called for on the part of his Majesty's govt. than in the present moment. Upon the general sentiment, with respect to the leading topic in the communication from the throne, I trust no Englishman can entertain but one opinion. No doubt can exist as to the incumbent duty of using every exertion, under the present circumstances, to support the honour of his Majesty's crown, and the dignity of the country at large, in carrying on with vigour the important contest in which we are engaged, in order to bring it to an honourable and prosperous issue; such an issue as shall be consistent with the honour and dignity of this country, and the interests of these powers of Europe with whom we are connected by amity and good faith. Under such considerations alone can peace be deemed desirable, and whenever it can be secured upon such grounds, sensible I am, that it will be cheerfully embraced by his Majesty's govt. By too great an extent of concession, and by discovering too great an eagerness for negotiation, I fear it was, that we fell into the snare which led to the present war.— The noble earl has particularly touched upon two points, though not, as I understood him, with a view of opposing the address. The first related to the question of the war with Spain, which the noble earl seems to think would have been unnecessary, were it not for some apprehensions which had fell from the noble mover of the address. In these, however, I imagine, that the noble lord must have been misunderstood, because he did not say any thing that implied a wish that the house should be committed beyond the simple specification in the address. We must, as the royal communication informs us, have the manifesto and the other official documents before us, ere we can properly give
14
15
The Duke of Clarence
did not expect, after what had fallen from his noble friend behind him (Earl Carlisle), that another word would have passed on the subject of the present address. As, however the noble secretary of state had thought proper to make some explanations
16
Lord Granville.
—My Lords; I rise to give my entire and complete concurrence to every part of the address. It so perfectly coincides with every expression which I have used, and every sentiment which I have uniformly professed, upon the great question which it embraces, I mean the question of war, that it must of necessity command my full and entire consent. I hold it my duty, and the duty of every man, not only in this house, but in the country at large, to concur in the determination to support the war in which we are engaged, with that vigour and firmness from which alone we can expect a successful and prosperous issue; to support it not merely by words, but by the most strenuous and efficient exertions in his power. By these, general words, I do not mean, however, to pledge myself to all the detail of the several subjects which the address may embrace. With all the particulars of the state of the military force of the country, and other subjects, which it comprehends, I cannot be presumed so well acquainted as to be able, at this moment, to give a decided opinion. Upon these, then, I must reserve myself, until the necessary papers are laid before the house, and I shall have had time to consider them; but, with this reservation, I repeat, that the address has my full and complete concurrence, and that it becomes the duty of every man in this country to support the war by his most vigorous exertions. I am sure it will have the concurrence of every British heart; for it must be the feeling of every man, that we ought steadily, constantly, and vigo-
17
18
19
20
The Duke of Norfolk
could not give his cordial and implicit concurrence to an address, in answer to a speech on the first
21
Lord Grenville
wished to know on what day it was likely that the papers connected with the several points in his Majesty's speech would be laid upon the table, and when they would probably be taken into consideration?
Lord Mulgrave.
—I cannot state any particular day for laying the papers, to which the noble lord alludes, upon the table;
22
nem. dis.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.]—
The Marquis of Abercorn
rose and spoke to the following effect.—My lords; I take this opportunity to remind your lordships of a business which I took the liberty of mentioning to your lordships in the course of the last session. I allude to the charge of misconduct which I have brought forward against Mr. Justice Fox, one of his. majesty's judges in Ireland. It may be thought, perhaps, that there has been too great delay on my part for an affair of this nature. I can, however, safely say, that I am a man who never threw away an hour in my life which ought to have been devoted to any important business in which I was concerned, and of that description I consider the present to be. I can also pledge myself to your lordships; that upon this occasion almost the whole of my time has been occupied in preparing the charges, and the evidence in support of them, for the purpose of laying them before the house. It is, therefore, with a degree of satisfaction, although I confess the subject is not one calculated to afford pleasure, I can now inform your lordships, that every inquiry which I have made, and every information which I have been able to collect, have served to confirm me in my original opinion upon this subject; and that I have all the charges, and the evidence to support them, perfectly arranged and complete, except only one, and that is the least important of the whole. The form of the proceedings your lordships are to direct and determine, as you shall think proper. All that was necessary for me to do I have done, and am ready to lay the documents before the> house at a moment's notice
23
Lord Carleton.
—I rise to inform the noble marquis who spoke last, and to inform this house, that I have received a fetter from Mr. Justice Fox, in which he declares himself perfectly ready and willing to hear and answer every charge that may or can be brought against him; but however prepared he may be, it is his wish that the business should not be brought forward until after the ensuing term. His object in wishing for this delay, is obvious, as he will of course have to examine some of the judges and lawyers in his defence. To call upon them at a time that would interfere with their business, is an inconvenience which ought to be avoided, if possible. It would therefore be desirable if the. time were so arranged, that the witnesses might be examined here, in the interval between the close of the term and the ensuing assizes, so as to enable them to return home in time to attend their circuits.
Lord Hawkesbury.
—My lords; this is the first case of the kind, I believe, which has happened since the passing of the law, that renders the judges independent of the crown. J am extremely sorry that it should have ever been found necessary to take a business of this very important and peculiar nature into your consideration, and that such a case should have ever occurred. Of the circumstances you neither have, or can have, as yet, any information that can now be examined into. However, as articles of impeachment are to be laid before the house against a judge of the land; for the sake of pure justice, for the sake of the constitution, and for the fake of the judge himself, who is placed in this peculiar situation, and whose character rests upon the result, it is necessary that the charge should be investigated speedily. I would therefore propose, that the necessary documents be laid upon the table on Monday, and that the house shall, at the same time, determine upon the form and mode of the proceeding upon them.
Lord Grenville
said, that this being a new and important case, he must object to any proceeding upon the documents, on the same day in which they were laid before the house. As, however, the noble lord who spoke last, thought that the greatest dispatch was necessary, and as the noble marquis had stated himself perfectly prepared, he saw no reason why the papers should not be laid upon the table to-morrow, if no other business was pressing.
24
The Marquis of Abercorn
said; if it were the wish of the house that he should, bring forward the articles to-morrow, he would do sp; at the same time, he did not expect so early a day would be apt pointed. So late as this morning, some, alteration had been made in the wording of one of the articles, and he was not sure that it might not be made still more, complete. However, as he had declared, himself ready, he should not recede from, his word, but produce the articles- tomorrow, if the house thought fit, At the same time, he wished the business might stand over until Monday.
Lord Hawkesbury
hoped, that the house would concur with him in opinion, that the papers should be laid upon the table on, Monday, and that Wednesday be fixed for taking them into their consideration—The house accordingly acquiesced in this arrangement.
[COMMITTEE OF PRIVILEGES.]—
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that from the manner in, which the noble lord, respecting whom he meant to make a motion, had acquitted himself, and the satisfaction which he had given their lordships, he anticipated their, unanimous vote. He accordingly moved, that Lord Walsingham be re-appointed chairman of the several committees, & c. of the house. Agreed to
ncm. dis.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, January 15, 1805.
The house met this day, pursuant to, his majesty's proclamation, for the dispatch of business. At three o'clock Mr. Quarme,, deputy usher of the black rod, appeared within the bar, and delivered a message from the lords, desiring the immediate attendance of that house in the house of peers to hear his majesty's most gracious speech from the throne. The Speaker, accompanied by several members, accordingly attended. On their return, the Speaker took the chair, and acquainted the house, that in pursuance of the directions of an act, passed in the 24th year of his present majesty, he had issued his warrant to the clerk or the crown, to make out new writs for the election of members to serve in parliament for the following places: viz. for Warwick, in the room of G. A. W. Shuckburgh Evelyn, baronet, deceased; for
25
[KING'S SPEECH].—
The Speaker
acquainted the house, that the house had this day attended his Majesty in the House of Peers, where his Majesty was pleased to make a most gracious speech from the throne; of which, to prevent mistakes, he had obtained a copy. He then proceeded to read the speech from the chair, for which we refer to our report of the proceedings of the Lords, (see p. 1.) After the speaker had finished reading the speech,
The Hon. Henry Augustus Dillon
rose, and spoke as follows:—I rise, sir, for the purpose of moving an address to his majesty for the most gracious speech we have just heard. I am aware of the importance of many of the topics which, in the speech that has now been read, arc submitted to the consideration of the house. But, at the same time, I believe, that there are few-points which can disturb the unanimity which ought to prevail at this momentous crisis. Our situation requires unanimity, and therefore I trust that none will be disposed to take any unreasonable grounds of objection to the address, which I shall by.
26
27
28
29
Mr. Charles Adams.
—Sir; I rise for the purpose of seconding the motion which has just been made by the hon. gent., and I do it the more readily, as the able statement which he has made renders it unnecessary for me to enter upon the subject of his majesty's speech at any length. Sufficient has been said to justify the concurrence of this house in the motion that has just now been submitted to them. At a time when we are engaged in a war about matters of the highest moment, at a time when our enemies have menaced us with invasion, and when their schemes have been rendered abortive only by the persevering zeal of our countrymen, and our
30
31
Mr. Fox
rose and spoke to the following purport: It is not my intention, sir, to trouble the house for any long time upon this occasion, for I certainly do not mean to move an amendment to the address now proposed, nor to advert to any but a few parts of it; but I wish to make a few observations on what appear to me to be two considerable omissions in his majesty's speech; for there is one part of the address on which I do not know how, uninformed is we are at present, we can give an opinion; although, perhaps, there would be no material difference of sentiment, if we understood it, but of which, without information, we cannot judge. I allude to that part of the address in which we say we approve of his majesty's determination not to explain himself further to us on an interesting subject, until he has had intercourse with certain powers. Now, it does not appear to me, I confess, upon the first view of it, that there was any necessity of entering into, that sort of explanation. It may be necessary, or wise, for his majesty to express his wishes for peace, and to communicate to the world that he is willing to enter into the discussion of, and to accede to such terms as were likely, or which ought to produce it; but, when he says he cannot enter into such considerations, until he has consulted certain courts, I do not see how we can approve of this conduct, until we know what is the nature of the intercourse between this Country and the continental powers. Now, though if this were understood generally, or if I understood it, there would probably be no difference of opinion, yet as I do not know, and am not permitted to know, those circumstances, which call for intercourse with other powers, I must think feat the address pledges the house to too much; that it pledges it to approbation of the determination not to explain at present the nature of the communications in question. But as to this explanation in itself, I, for one, must confess that I see no necessity for any explanation, but what appears already on the face of the speech: for his majesty there expresses himself clearly, making professions of a wish for peace. His majesty says directly, that he entertains this wish, but can give no fur-
32
33
34
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—I do not, sir, conceive it necessary, at this time,
35
36
37
38
Mr. Fox,
in explanation why he had not brought forward the subject of catholic emancipation, stated, that it was perfectly well understood that any man bringing forward this question unconnected with govt. would have had very little chance of gaining the object. It was, besides, very doubtful how far the measure, would be acceptable to the catholic body, if not taken up, as a matter of justice and policy, by the executive govt.
Mr. Windham
vindicated the conduct of his hon. friend (Mr. Fox) as perfectly consistent. He had not brought forward the subject of catholic emancipation during the existence of a cabinet avowedly hostile to that measure; nay, whose very elevation to power was founded on their opposition to it; but it was very different when the cabinet professed a desire to have this measure brought about, and when the person at the head of the cabinet had given an open avowed opinion in favour both of its policy and its justice. This was sufficient to justify the consistency of his hon. friend in recommending the subject to the right hon. gent, at the present moment.—But, leaving this topic, the right hon. gent, proceeded to make some observations on the information conveyed by the speech, respecting the state of our continental connections. He was free to acknowledge, that he thought the information on this subject extremely scanty and unsatisfactory. He had expected and hoped something distinct and specific, but he had been disappointed. The house were indeed told of the wise and dignified manifestation of the interest entertained by the Emperor of Russia for the independence of the continent; but the
39
40
had
sufficient
41
42
ncm. con.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, January 16, 1805.
[MINUTES.]—
At two o'clock the Lord Chancellor took his seat on the woolsack. —The Earl of Aylesford signified to the house his majesty's pleasure to receive their lordships' address at three o'clock at St. James's. —Some naturalization bills, and bills of a private nature, were forwarded, and a variety of arrangements made with respect to the judicial business of the house.
[INSOLVENT DEBTORS' BILL.]—
Lord Ellenborough
presented a bill for the consideration of their lordships, the object of which was to rectify certain omissions of the insolvent debtors bill of last session, and more clearly to ascertain how far the provisions of that bill were meant to extend; one of the leading provisions of the bill seemed to be a specific regulation of the lists to be furnished by jailors of the prisoners in their custody, liable to the operations of the late insolvent debtors' act. His lordship moved that the bill be now read a first time.
The Lord Chancellor,
after reading the breviate of the bill, quitted the woolsack, and expressed his opinion, that the noble and learned lord deserved the thanks of the house and of the country for his conduct in the present instance, and on two grounds: 1st, in coming forward with a provision to rectify an act, which greatly required it; and, 2dly, for bringing it forward at so early a period of the session. The bill of last session was brought in, he observed, at so very late a period, that the house was unavoidably deprived of the assistance, in its discussion, of several of its most able and best-informed members (of that of his noble and learned friend, for instance), who were absent on calls of indispensable duty; he wondered not, therefore, at the late act requiring so much amendment. To this was to be added another consideration, that acts of that description, when passed towards the close of a session, generally create an idea that the relief is meant to be extended farther than is really the case. On these grounds he highly approved of the present bill, and begged leave to repeat his thanks
43
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, January 16, 1805.
[MINUTES.]—
Lord W. Russel
presented a petition from the proprietors of the Surry Iron Railway; ordered to be referred to a committee.—The committees of religion, grievances, courts of justice, trade, and privileges were appointed—The standing orders of the house were read as usual at the commencement of every session.—Mr. Dillon brought up the report of the address to his majesty on his speech from the throne, which was read and agreed to, and ordered to be presented by the whole house, and that such members as are of the privy council do wait on his majesty, to inquire when he will be pleased to receive the same.—Ordered, that his majesty's speech be taken into consideration to-morrow.—Mr. Williams presented the ninth report of the commissioners of naval inquiry; ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.
[WARIN INDIA.]—
Mr. Francis
adverted to a motion which he had made in the course of the last sessions, for the production of certain papers respecting the war in India, and which was not complied with, as the papers were not then arrived to which his motion referred. Understanding now, that those papers were received, the hon. member submitted a motion, that there should be laid before the house copies of all treaties, engagements, and correspondence, as have taken place between the governments of Bengal, Fort St. George, and Bombay, and any of the surviving Mahometan princes or states, in the upper part of India, particularly with the king or mogul, at Delhi, or his ministers. —Ordered accordingly. —Mr. Francis also gave notice, that he would, on Monday next, move for the production of some farther papers with respect to the war in India, After the two distinguished chiefs, Scindiah, and the Rajah of Berar, had been conquered by our arms, and a treaty concluded with them; after India was understood to be completely tranquillized,
44
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, January 17, 1805.
[MINUTES.]—
Lord Vis. Stopford
reported to the house, that his majesty having been waited upon, to know when he would be pleased to receive their address, had appointed that day at three o'clock, at his palace of St. James.—Mr. Huskisson Moved, that his majesty's speech be taken into consideration. —The Speaker read,
pro forma,
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, January 21, 1805.
[MINUTES.]—
The Earl of Caledon,
one of the Irish representative peers, was sworn, and took his seat.—Lord Ellen-borough moved the second reading of the bill for rectifying omissions in the insolvent debtors bill; it was accordingly read a second time, and committed for to-morrow.—A number of naturalization bills were introduced, read a first time, and ordered for a second reading.—Mr. Williams, from the commissioners of naval enquiry, presented the ninth report of that commission; which was ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Johnson, from the secretary of state for Ireland's office, presented the 2th, 28th, 29th,, and 30th reports from the commissioners of national accounts in Ireland: ordered to lie on the table.
[CATHOLIC EMANCIPATION.]—
The Earl of Suffolk
said, that it was his inten-
45
[Additional Force Bill.]—
Earl Darnley
said, that he was desirous to be acquainted with the effect of a measure brought forward last session, commonly known by the name of the additional force bill. He had reason to apprehend that this measure was far from having attained its object, or rather that it had proved wholly inadequate to it. Should there be no objection to such a motion, he would now give notice, that it was his intention in a few days, to move, That there be laid before the house, an account of the number of men raised through the operation of the said act. That motion he should follow up with another, respecting the operation of the same measure with regard to Ireland. The noble lord was desirous to make the motions separately; because,
46
Lord Hawkesbury
did not conceive there would be any objection to the motion; the noble lord might make it now, if he thought proper, nor was it necessary, in his opinion, to make separate motions on the same subject respecting the two countries.
Earl Darnley
acquiesced in part of the noble secretary's suggestion, but persisted in dividing the two motions. His lordship then moved "that an humble address be presented to his majesty, praying that his majesty would be graciously pleased to give directions, that there be laid before the house an account of the number of men raised in pursuance of the additional force bill." This motion was agreed to, as also a similar one with regard to Ireland.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.]—
The Marquis of Abercorn
presented again the three petitions against Judge Fox, which were submitted to the house last session; namely, one from Mr. Hart, one from the Grand Jury of the county of Fermanagh, and one from the High Sheriff of the same county, which were severally read, and ordered to lie on the table. His lordship then presented the heads of the charges made against justice Fox, and concluded by moving, that the house should resolve itself into a committee on Thursday next, to consider the said papers.
The Lord Chancellor
observed, that the business before the house was one of the most important that could come under their lordship's deliberation. It was therefore of the greatest importance that they should consider well what mode of proceeding ought to be adopted. By the act of the 1st of his present majesty, by which it was enacted that the commissions of the judges should not be terminated by the demise of the crown, it was proved that a judge might be removed upon an address to his majesty from both houses of Parliament, praying for such removal. The question, therefore, in this case, must ultimately be, whether the facts alledged against Mr. Justice Fox were such as to-call upon their lordships to concur in as
47
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, January 21, 1805.
[MIUUTES.]—
The speaker reported to the house, that the house attended his majesty on Thursday last, with their address; to which his majesty was pleased to give the following most gracious answer:—"Gentlemen, I return you my warmest thanks for this loyal and dutiful address. It affords me the greatest satisfaction to receive the declaration of your full concurrence in the sentiments which have dictated my answer to the communication from the French govt. The conviction you express that the safety and permanent interests of this country are closely connected with the security of Europe, and the cordial assurances of your zealous support in enabling me to prosecute the war with vigour till it can be brought to a safe and honourable termination, are calculated to produce the happiest effects in the present situation of affairs."—A new writ was ordered for Droitwich, in the room of sir E. Winnington, bart. deceased.—A petition was presented by sir J. Anderson, from certain coal factors, whose names were thereunto subscribed, praying to be relieved from the penalties imposed by the act for establishing and regulating a coal
48
[WAR IN INDIA.]—
Mr. Francis.
—Sir; the motion which I mean to submit to the house will not make it necessary for me to trouble you with many reasons in support of it, or for more than a few minutes; and, indeed, it appeared to me so much a matter of course, that I should not have thought it required a previous notice, but for a suggestion which I am always desirous to comply with. In the course of the last session, the house thought fit to order a great variety of papers to be laid before them, to explain the causes of the war which began in 1803, against two of the principal Mahratta chiefs, Scindia and Boosla. By the papers before the house it appears, that those chiefs were subdued and reduced to submission, and that treaties of peace had been signed with them about the close of the same year; and it was natural to conclude that there was an end of the war in India. Nothing could be more improbable than that any of the remaining Mahratta powers should take up the contest, where
49
50
Lord Castlereagh
had no objection to the production of the papers the hon. gent, had referred to, but was sorry the hon. gent, had introduced other circumstances that were not necessarily connected with the motion. The observations he had thrown out respecting the defeat of that unfortunate detachment went, the house would feel, to involve the character of an officer, whose conduct was now the subject of military inquiry. But, considering this event in a more general view, he did not see that it afforded so much room for complaint as the hon. gent. would, have us believe. Great successes had been obtained in other quarters, which much more than counterbalanced that unfortunate circumstance. The hon. gent, had also gone out of his way in the observations he had made respecting the territories that had been ceded as indemnities, and the sums granted to a prince of the Guzzerat. These, the noble lord thought, would come more properly under discussion when the India budget should be submitted to the house. He had no objection, however, that the house should be in possession of all the information the hon. gent. could wish. Indeed, the qualification the hon. gent, himself had annexed to his motion, removed every objection that could be made to it, as he wishes only to have such papers as may not interfere with the arrangements of govt. or put them in an awkward predicament in regard to the quarter from which they may have received secret information.
Mr. Francis.
I beg leave to assure the house that I had no thoughts of reflecting
51
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, January 22, 1805.
[INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL.]—
After several private bills were forwarded in their respective stages, and some routine business disposed of, their lordships, pursuant to the order of the day, resolved into a committee on the insolvent debtors' amended bill, lord Walsingham in the chair.
Lord Ellenborugh
rose and stated, that in consequence of a gross misrepresentation of the nature and object of the present bill, which had been allowed to go abroad, he found it necessary, both for the public information, and that those unfortunate persons who might suppose that they were meant to be relieved by the bill might not be deceived, or entertain false hopes, to explain the whole extent of the object which he had in view, in submitting this bill to their lordships' consideration. The bill now on their lordships' table, was not meant to extend in the most distant degree the benefits of the act of last session to any persons not expressly and in the true spirit and meaning of the act, comprehended in the bill passed last session. In fact, the insertion of a single word, or rather of a single letter ("prisons" for "prison") into that act, would; have rendered the present bill unnecessary. From the whole tenor of the act, it was evident that its benefits were meant to be extended to all persons, not otherwise disqualified, who had been in prison previous to the 1st Jan. 1804, and still continued there. Yet, by the wording of the oath required to be made by the jailors of the different prisons, with the list of prisoners in their custody, it is narrowed in such a manner as to seem to apply merely to persons who, during the period specified in the act, have been in that individual prison of which the person making the return is jailor. To rectify this narrowed interpretation of the act, and to give it the full scope which its other clauses imported
52
habeas corpus to the King's Bench,
vice versa,
53
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, January 22, 1805.
[MINUTES.]—
An officer from the commissioners of the customs presented at the bar, an Account of prohibited East India goods imported and exported during the last year; also, an Account of naval stores imported from Russia, from Michaelmas 1803, to Michaelmas 1804; also., an Account of the number of ships employed in the whale fishery to Davis's Streights and the Greenland seas, in the year 1804: ordered to lie upon the table.—A new writ was ordered for Agmondesham, in the room of C. D. Garrard, esq. who hath accepted the office of steward of the Chiltern Hundreds.—Lord Henry Petty moved, that there be laid before the house, an Account of all the exports to the Spanish ports in the years 1803 and 4; ordered.—Mr. Johnstone moved, that there be laid before the house, an Account of the net produce of the Permanent Taxes and the War Taxes for the year, ending 5th of Jan. 1805; also, an Account of the Exchequer Bills outstanding on the 5th Jan. 1805. Ordered.—On the motion of the Chanc. of the Exchequer, it was resolved, that no petitions for private bills should be received after the 1st of March next.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the Expiring Laws Committee. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—Mr, Wallace brought up the report of the committee of supply. The resolution that a supply be granted to his Majesty, was read a first and second time, and approved
nem. con.
54
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.]—
Mr. Windham
said, that he had given notice of a motion for Monday next, to inquire into the state of the military defence of the country; but, it having been intimated to him, from the other side of the house, that it would be desirable to leave that day entirely open for the discussion of the Spanish business, he had no objection to postpone his motion to some future day, say Monday se'enight, which he hoped would be convenient. As, for the complete elucidation of the subject which he intended to bring before the house, it would be necessary to move for a variety of papers and accounts, he should take an opportunity of doing that to-morrow. The object of his motion for these papers was, that the house might be enabled to ascertain the increase of our military force within a certain period; and as he intended to include in his motion accounts of every species of our military force; regulars, militia, volunteers, &c. he thought it would be the most advisable plan to move for several distinct statements, so that should an objection be made to the production of any part of these papers, the house would not be prevented from being put in possession of the remainder.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, January 23, 1805.
[Minutes.]—
The bill for amending the insolvent debtor's act, was read a third time, passed, and ordered to be sent to the
55
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, January 23, 1805.
[MINUTES.]—
A new writ was ordered for the borough of Thirsk, in the room of Sir G. P. Turner, Bart, deceased.—Lord W. Russel moved for leave to bring in a bill to enable the proprietors of the Surry iron railway to raise a further sum of money. Leave granted.—The Sec. at War presented the estimates respecting the army, and Sir E. Nepean, those respecting the navy; which were ordered yesterday. Ordered to be referred to a committee of supply.—On the motion of Sir E. Nepean, the house resolved into a committee of supply, and the following motions were put and agreed to: That 120,000 men, including 30,000 marines, be granted for the service of the navy, for the year 1805; That a sum not exceeding 2,886,000
l.
l.
s.
l.
l.
s.
l.
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.]—
Mr. Windham
rose, and said, that although previous to a general inquiry into the military situation of the country, he thought that an account of the army, in all its branches, would have been more desirable; yet he had at present confined the motions that be had to offer to such branches only as were most immediately connected with the subject of the inquiry. He had already shewn die motions that he intended to make, and he was glad to find they would
56
57
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that he had not, for his own part, any very material objection to lay before the house an account of the total amount of our public force, and to the propositions which had been submitted by the right hon. gent, he had no objection whatever; on the contrary, it was his wish, that the house should be in full possession of all the particulars to which those propositions referred, before it proceeded to the discussion of the subject which the right hon. gent, had announced his intention of bringing forward.
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]
Mr. Fox
expressed a-wish to know when the papers relative to the negotiation of govt. with Spain, previous to the war, would be laid before the house; and also what, day it was the intention of the right hon. the Ch. of the Excheq. to appoint for the discussion of the subject In which those papers referred.
58
The Chanc of the Exchequer
stated, that the papers to which the hon. gent, alluded, required more time to print for the use of the house than he was at first aware of, but that they would be laid on the table to-morrow. As those papers were very voluminous, and as it was desirable that the house should have full time to consider their contents, the right hon. gent, thought it advisable not to bring forward the discussion of the subject as early as he originally intended, but would appoint Thursday, the 31st inst. for that purpose.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, January 24, 1805.
[MINUTES.]—
On the motion of Lord Walsingham, it was ordered, that no reports of private bills should be received after the 10th of April.—Lord Mulgrave presented the papers respecting the war with Spain, which he moved should be taken into consideration on Thursday next. Ordered.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.]—
The Marquis of Abercorn
moved for the appointment of a committee to consider of the matters alledged against Judge Fox, and to hear such evidence as might be adduced in their support. A short conversation ensued between the lord chancellor, lord Hawkesbury, and the marquis of Abercorn; after which the motion was agreed to, and the committee ordered to meet on the 7th of Feb. The committee to consist of all the lords who have been present this-session. The petitions presented against the judge were ordered to be referred to the committee.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, January 24, 1805.
[MINUTES.]—
A message from the lords informed the house that the lords had passed a bill, intituled, an act to remedy certain omissions in an act, passed in the last session of parliament, intituled, an act for the relief of certain insolvent debtors. Read a first, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow;—On the motion of Sir J. Anderson, a bill was ordered to be brought in for the indemnification of certain persons who sold coals, from penalties incurred under an act passed in the last session of parliament, by opening a,
59
60
61
PAPERS RELATIVE TO THE DISCUSSION WITH SPAIN IN 1803, AND 1804, PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY'S COMMAND TO BOTH HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT, 24th JAN. 1805.
No. 1—
Extract of a Dispatch from Ld.
62
63
No. 2.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to 14. Hawkesbury, dated Aranjuez, 3d June 1803.
64
Translation qflnclosure referred to in No* 2, dated Aranjuez, 3d June, 1803.
65
No. 3.—
Dispatch from J. H. Frerc, Esq. to Ed. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid, 10th June
66
First Inclosure in No.
Translation of a Note from Don Pedro Cevallos to J. H. Prore, Esq. dated Aranjucz,
th June
(Second Inclosure in No. 3.
Translation of a Nole from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Don Pedro cevallos, dated Madrid,
67
NO. 4.—
Dispatch from. J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid, 12th sept.
68
(Translation of Inclosure in No.
Note film J. H. Frere, Esq. to Don Pedro Cetallos, dated
th Sept.
69
No. 5.—
Extract of a dispatch front Lit. Havkeibury to J. H. Frere Esq. dated Downing Street,
th Nov.
70
No. 6—
Extract of a dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawlesbury, dated Madrid, 27th. Dec.
71
72
(
Translation of first inclosure in No. 6.
73
(
Second Inclosure in No. 6.
Translation of a Note from Don Pedro Cevallas to J. H. Frere, Esq. dated Escurial, l6th Dec. 1803.
74
PEDRO CEVALLOS.
(
Translation of the Third Inclosure in No. 6
Note from J. H. Frere, Esq. to D. P.
75
Cerallos, dated Madrid, 26th Dec.
76
77
78
No. 7.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid, 27th Dec.
79
J. H. FRERE.
No. 8.—
Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid,
No. 9—
Extract of a Dispatch from Id. Hawkesbury to J. H. Frere, Esq. dated
80
No. 10.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Lord Hawkesbury, dated
81
82
(
Translation of First Inclosure in
Note from J. H. Frere, Esq. to D. P. Cevallos, dated Madrid,
83
(
Second Inclosure in No. 10
Note from D. P. Cevallos to J. Frere, Esq. dated Aranjuez,
PEDRO CEVALLOS.
84
(
Translation of third inclosure in No. 10.
Note from J. H. Frere, Esq. to D. P. Cevallos, dated
85
statu quo
(
Fourth inclosure in No. 10.
Note from D. P. Cevallos to J. H. Frere, Esq. dated Aranjucz,
86
data,
87
statu quo
data
P. CEVALLOS.
88
(
Translation of fifth inclosure in No. 10.
Note from J. H. Frere, Esq. to D. P. Cevallos, dated
89
90
91
J. H. FRERE.
No. 11.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid, 18th April,
(
Inclosure referred to in No.
Note from D. P. Cevallos to J. H. Frere, Esq. dated Aranjuez,
92
No. 12—
Copy of a Letter from Ld. Harrowby to F. H. Frere Esq. dated Downing Street,
93
No. 13.;—
Copy of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Harrowby, dated Madrid,
th July
94
No. 14 —
Copy of a Dispatch from B. Frere Esq. to Ld. Harrowby, dated Madrid,
th Aug.
B. FRERE.
(Translation of first Inclosure in No. 14.) —Note from B. Frere Esq. to D. P. Cesallos, dated 20th Aug.
95
(Translation of Second Inclosure in No.
Rote from B. Frere, Esq. to D. P. Cevallos, dated
No. 15.—
Copy of a Dispatch from Ld. Harrowby to B. Frere, Esq. dated Dawning Street,
96
97
No. 16—
Extract of a Dispatch from Mr. Consul General Hunter to Ld. Harrowby, dated Madrid, 5th Oct.
(
Translation of first Inclosure in No.
Note from B. Frere, Esq. to D. P. Cevallos,. dated 27th Sept. 1804
98
B. FRERE.
(
Second Inclosure referred to in No. 16
Note from D. P. Cevallos to B. Frere, Esq. dated Escurial, 3d Oct.
No. 17.—
Copy of a Dispatch from Ld. Harrowby to B. Frere, Esq. dated Downing-Street, 2lst Oct.
99
100
101
102
HARROWEY.
NO. 18.—
Dispatch from B. Frcre, Esq. to Ld. Hurrowby, dated Escurial, 27th Oct.
103
104
105
B. FRERE.
(
Translation of inclosure referred to in No. 18.)—Note from B. Frere Esq. to D. P. Cevallos, dated Escurial, 26tn Oct.
106
107
No. 19.—
Dispatch from B. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Harrowby, dated Madrid,
th Nov.
108
109
(
First inclosure referred to in
Translation of a Note from D. P. Cevallos to B. Frere, Esq. dated San Lorenzo,
th Oct.
110
(
Second inclosure referred to in No. 19.)
Translation of a Note from D. P. Cevallos to Don Joseph d' Anduaga, dated San Lorenzo,
th Oct.
111
112
(
Translation of No. 3, referred to in
Note from B. Frere, Esq. to D.P. Cevallos,
113
114
(
Translation of 4
th Inclosure in
Note from B. Frere, Esq. to D. P. Cevallos, dated Madrid,
d Not.
115
any longer the repetition of my demands, and at the same time to request your excl. if you are unable to give me full satisfaction on them, to have the goodness to send, in addition to those I have already demanded, passports for Mr. Hunter and his family, together with an order to the governor of the council to afford them as well as myself such a guard as shall be necessary to escort us to the frontiers.—The messenger who carries this letter waits for your excl.'s answer, which I hope you will have the goodness to dispatch to me in the course of the evening. B. FRERE.
(
Fifth inclosure referred to in
Translation of a note from D. P. Cevallos to B. Frere Esq. dated S. Lorenzo,
d Nov.
116
(
Translation of sixth inclusure in
Note from B. Frere, Esq. to D. P. Cevallos, dated Madrid,
d Nov.
B. FRERE.
(
Translation of seventh Inclosure in
Note from B. Frere. Esq. to D. P. Cevallos, dated Madrid,
th Nov.
117
(
Eighth inclosure referred to in
Translation of a vote from D. P. Cevallos to B. Frere Esq,. dated St. Lorenzo,
th Nov.
PEDRO CEVALLOS.
No. 20.—
Extract of an order from the Rt. Hon. the Lords Commisioners of the Admiralty to Vice-Adm. Lord Viscount Nelson, dated the
th May,
118
No. 21.—
Extract of a letter from Sir Evan Nepean, Bart, to Vice-Adm. Lord Vise. Nelson, K. B. dated Admiralty office, the
No. 22.—
Order from the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to the Hon. W. Cornwallis Adm. of the White, &c. dated the
th sept.
119
th Sept.
No. 23.—(
Secret.
Copy of a Letter from W. Marsden, Esq. Sec. of the Admiralty, to the Senior Officer of his Maj.'s Snips off Cadiz, respecting the Detention of Spanish Ships with Treasure, dated Admiralty Office,
th Sept.
No. 24—
Copy of a Letter from W. Marsden, Esq. to the Commanders in Chief in the Mediterranean, the Leeward Islands, and Jamaica, dated the
th Sept.
120
No. 25—
Copy of an Order to the Hon. Adm. Cornwallis off Brest, for detaining Spanish Ships laden with Naval or Military Stores, dated the
th Sept.
By the Commissioners for executing the Office of Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom of G. Brit, and Ireland, &c.
MELVILLE. J. COLPOYS. P. PATTON.
No. 26.—
Copy of an Order to the senior Officer off Cadiz, dated
th Sept.
By the Commissioners for executing the Office of Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom of G. B. and Ireland, &c.
No. 27—
Copy of an Order to the Commander in Chief in the Mediterranean, the Leeward Islands, and Jamaica, dated the
th Sept.
By the Commissioners for exe-
121
culing the Office of Lord High Admiral of the United Kingdom of G. Brit, and Ireland, &c.
No. 18—
Copy of a Letter from W. Marsden, Esq. to the different Commanders in Chief of his Maj.'s Ships, on the Subject of the Detention of the Spanish Vessels, dated Admiralty-Office,
th Nov.
No. 29.—
Extract of a Letter from Rear-Adm. Cochrane to W. Marsden, Esq. dated on hoard his Maj.'s Ship the Northumberland, off Ferrol, dated
th Aug.
122
"His Maj.'s Ship, Northumberland, off Ferrol, dated 19
th July,
"A. COCHRANE."
"His Excl. Don F. Octaranco, Capt. Geo. of Galacia, Cornnna."
"
Corunna,
st July,
No. 30.—
Extract of a Letter fom the Hon. Rear-Adm. Cochrane to the Hon. Adm. Cornallis, dated off Ferrol, 3d Sep. 1804.:—I inclose a report just made me of the state of the French squadron at Ferrol, also that of the Spanish ships. From this, and other circumstances, I am led to believe, that more than usual exertions are now making to complete them for sea. A party of men
123
arrived last night from France, and many more are on their road. 200 cannoniers have lately joined.
(
Inclosure in
No. 31—
Extract of a Letter from the Hon. Adm. Cochrane to W. Marsden, Esq. dated off Ferrol, the 11th Sep. 1804.—Be pleased to acquaint the lords commis. of the admiraity, that in consequence of the hostile aspect of the French and Spanish squadrons at Ferrol, I have judged it right to detain the Illustrious. There does not remain any doubt that the intentions of the French, Spanish, and Dutch ships of war are to act together, and as 3 first rates are expected from Cadiz, their Idps. will I hope approve of my concentrating the force I have under my orders.
No. 32.—
Extract of a letter from Rear-Adm. Cochrane to the Hon. Adm. Cornwallis, dated on board his Maj.'s Ship the Northumberland, off Ferrol, the 21st Oct. 1804.—The Spanish Ships here are in the same state as when I wrote last, I now inclose the most correct list that can be obtained of their situation, by which you will perceive that they are all in a state fit for service.
A List of all the Spanish Ships of War in the Port of Ferrol.
Names.
Guns.
Remarks.
La Conception
120
In good order, without masts; guns all on board, in the arsenal
La Prince of Asturias
120
Newly repaired, in the arsenal
La Mexicano
120
In good order, in the arsenal
La St. Fernando
90
An old ship newly repired, in the arsenal
LaNeptano
84
Rigged, and in good order in the arsenal—complete
La Monarco
74
Rigged, and in good order in the arsenal—complete
La St. Augustia
74
Rigged. sails fast—old I ship—complete.
La St. Juan Nepanesceno
74
Just out of dock, in good order
La Mantanes
74
In good order; ten years old
La St. Yldefonso
74
Thirteen years old
La St. Francisco de Asis
74
In dock, and has had a thorough rep.
La St. Felino
74
Sails very fast, old, but in good order
La St. Fulgencia
64
Old, but in good order
La Orience
74
Old, but in order for service
La St Julian
64
Old, but in order for service
La Esmeralda
44
Frigate
124
Names.
Guns.
Remarks.
La Flora
44
Ord. to be docked for immediate serv.
La Prucba
44
New, never been at sea, comp. rigged
La Vengenza
40
Rigged, ready for sea
La Diana
40
In good order, about 10 years old
La Pila
40
In good order
In the arsenal there are 16 or 18 gun boats, carrying a long 24 pounder, and 30 men belonging to each. During the last war they had floating batteries, carrying from 8 to 10 long 24 pounders, with a furnace for heating shot. One of them lay at Rides the most of the war.
NO. 33.—
Extract of a Letter from Rear-Adm. Cochrane to the Hon. Adm. Cornwallis, dated on board his Maj.'s ship the Northumberland, off Ferrol, the
th Oct.
DECLARATION, DATED DOWNING-STREET, JAN. 1805.
From the moment that hostilities had commenced between Great Britain and France, a sufficient ground of war against Spain, on the part of G. Britain, necessarily followed from the treaty of St. Ildephonso, if not disclaimed by Spain.—That treaty, in fact, identified Spain with the republican govt. of France, by a virtual acknowledgment of unqualified vassalage, and by specific stipulations of unconditional offence,—By the articles of that treaty Spain covenanted to furnish a stated contingent of naval and military force for the prosecution of any war in which the French republic might think proper to engage, She specifically surrendered any right or pretension to enquire into the nature, origin, or justice of that war. She stipulated, in the first instance, a contingent of troops and ships, which, of itself, comprises no moderate proportion of the means at her disposal; but in the event of this contingent being at any time found insufficient for the purposes of France, she fur-
125
126
127
128
129
130
131
132
HOUSE OF LORDS,
Friday, January 25, 1805.
[MINUTES].—
Counsel was heard at considerable length relative to the Scotch ap-
133
v.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, January 25, 1805.
[MINUTES].—
Mr. Mitford,
from the commissioners of the customs in Scotland, presented at the bar, an account of custom duties charged and out-standing on bond or otherwise, on 5th April, 1803 and 4; and of all ships from Scotland employed in the whale fishery to Davis's Straits and the Greenland seas. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—He afterwards presented an account of the duties of excise in Scotland, out-standing on bond or otherwise, on 5th April, 1803 and 4. Ordered to be printed.—Also, an abstract of the account from the commissioners of the Northern light-houses. Ordered to lie on the table.—Sir E. Nepean gave notice, that he would, on Monday, move for the continuance of the suspension of the habeas corpus and of martial law in Ireland.—Mr. Alexander brought up the insolvent debtors' bill, which was read a 1st and 2d time, and committed for Monday.—On the motion of Mr. S. Bourne, a new writ was ordered for the county of Hertford, in room of the hon. P. Lamb, deceased.—A petition of the there-undersigned was presented to the house, and read; setting forth, "that the petitioners, at Michaelmas, 1801, entered upon the office of sheriffs of London, and sheriffs of the county of Middlesex, and continued in the discharge of the same till Michaelmas, 1S02; and that, during their continuance in the same, they did, by virtue of their said offices, and at a great expence, trouble, and inconvenience to themselves, preside, and were returning officers at three different strongly contested and protracted polls, namely, the election of a bridge-master, the election of four citizens to represent the said city of London, and the election of two knights of the shire to represent the said county of Middlesex in this present parliament; and at the close pf the said sheriffalty, the livery of the said city of London came to the following resolution, in a meeting or assembly of the mayor and liverymen of the several com-
134
Resolved unanimously.
135
136
137
138
139
140
141
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.]—
Mr. Windham
rose for the purpose of making a motion, to which, he trusted, there could be no objection. It referred to a point upon which, when he brought forward his motions a few days since, it was his wish to have obtained full and distinct information. He was still of opinion, that it would be necessary to procure information separately on this head, in order to enable the house, when the situation of the military circumstances of the country should come to be discussed, to form a clear and impartial opinion upon it. He had been led to give up this motion by a spirit of accommodation to the right hon. gent. on the other side of the house, and to generalise the motions he on that occasion submitted; but as it often happened, that whilst acting under such an impulse, a man might concede more than upon reflection he would deem consistent with prudence or discretion, he proposed in the present instance, to correct his former omission by a specific motion. His object in making it was, to ascertain the number of men that had been raised in col. French's levy. He was aware, that as his former motions took in the new levies in England, Ireland, and Scotland, it might be said that his present motion was included in one of them. But* as the only inconve-
142
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
then rose, and observed, that it would be highly expedient, before the question should come to be discussed, to have a complete view of the aggregate military force of the country, in one connected account. He wished gentlemen to be put in possession of the most satisfactory and comprehensive information on the subject, and with a view to that object, should move, "that there be laid before the house, an account of the total amount of his maj.'s regular, militia, and provincial forces, on the 1st of Jan. 1804, and the 1st of Jan. 1805, respectively, distinguishing the limited from the unlimited force, and cavalry from infantry; and also those serving in G. Brit. Ireland, and the islands of Guernsey and Jersey, and those serving in guards and garrisons abroad. Ordered.
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]—
Mr. Grey
then rose, for the purpose of giving notice of several motions, which it was his intention to submit to the house on Monday. After all the attention which it had been in his power to bestow on the papers relative to the new war in which we were now unfortunately engaged, in the short period since they had been distributed, it appeared to him, that there were many important omissions, which it was material to have supplied before the main question should be discussed, and to enable the house to form a just and impartial opinion on the merits of the case. It could not be denied, that on so solemn and momentous a question, every information ought to be given to parliament, as far as it might be consistent with the interests of the public service. It was with a view, therefore, to supply the omissions which appeared to him in the papers laid before the house, that he proposed to bring forward the motions of which he then gave notice. The
143
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
expressed a wish, that the hon. member would postpone his motions till Monday, on the ground that it might be necessary to consider how far it would be proper to comply with them, consistently with the public service.—The motions were then noticed for Monday.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
next intimated an opinion, that it would be desirable to have the object of the hon. gent's other motions more specifically stated, in order to afford an opportunity of considering them, previous to their being submitted to the house.
Mr. Grey,
in explanation of his object,
144
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, January 26, 1805.
[MINUTES.]—
The house having met pursuant to adjournment, Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee of ways and means. The resolutions were agreed to, and bills ordered to be brought in upon them.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, January 28, 1805.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.]—
The Marquis of Abercorn
moved, that the order for their lordships going into a committee upon the matters alleged against Mr. Justice Fox, and the papers and documents respecting the same, on the 7th of Feb. be discharged. This the noble marquis generally stated, he was principally induced to do by the consideration of the great distance many of the witnesses who were meant to be brought forward on the occasion, had necessarily to travel; some from remote parts of Ireland, and to whom it would be impracticable to arrive in due time, in reference to the day at first appointed for the commencement of the investigation. Under this impression, and with a view to the circumstances of this case, he should propose that a similar order be made for the is 18th of Feb. which his lordship seemed to think the earliest
145
[ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]
Earl Camden
presented, in pursuance of a recent address of their lordships, accounts of the number of men raised under the provisions of the additional force act passed last session. The accounts were ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.
Earl Darnley
observed, that he still found it necessary to ask for further information upon this subject. He wished to know specifically, what number of men had been raised by the parishes; for which purpose he should now make a motion, to which he thought there could be no objection, for an account, distinguishing the number of men so raised by the medium of the parish officers, distinct from those raised by the ordinary means of levy. He did not wish to enter now into the general question upon the subject which he intended to bring forward on Monday next, but upon a very cursory view of the papers upon the table, he could not help observing, that he thought they completely justified the objections which were originally, made to the Addiditional Force Act, as it appeared to him, that out of the number of men raised, since the last session, very few had been obtained within the united kingdom. He should merely, however, now move for the production of the paper to which he had alluded, and he should then move that the lords be summoned for Monday, upon his motion respecting the army.
Earl Camden
observed, he saw no objection to the accounts being produced, which his noble friend adverted to; but, with respect to the day upon which the intended proposition should be discussed, the same facility, in his mind, did not seem to obtain. There were, on the other hand, other papers and accounts, which, he thought, were necessary to be produced, and which it might not be practicable to get ready in due time; besides, there was a discussion of great importance
146
Earl Darnley
explained, and expressed himself desirous that no proposition coming from him should stand in the way of any other business of more importance. However, as the thing stood, he did not see what well-grounded objection could be offered to summoning their 1dps. for Monday next. He repeated some of his former observations relative to the inefficacy of parts of the act in question; and concluded by framing a motion for producing the farther accounts, as above described, which, after a few words from Earl Camden, was put and ordered accordingly.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, January 28, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Estcourt
took the oaths and his seat for Devizes, in the room of the right hon. H. Addington, created viscount Sidmouth.—Mr. Irwin, inspector general of exports and imports, presented at the bar, an account of the exports to the ports of Spain, during the years 1803 and 1804, as far as the same can be made up.—Mr. Cooke, from the exchequer bill office, brought up an Account of the unfunded debt in exchequer bills outstanding on the 5th of Jan. 1805.—Sir E. Nepean postponed the motion of which he had given notice for this day, relative to the continuing the suspension of the habeas corpus act, and martial law in Ireland, to a future day.—The insolvent debtors' bill was committed, read a third time and passed, and returned to the lords.—Mr. Alexander brought up the land and malt bill, and the bill for continuing the duties on pensions, tobacco, snuff, &c. which, were severally read a 1st, and ordered to be read a 2d time to-morrow.—A message from the lords informed the house, that their 1dps. requested the house would give leave to sir T. Featherstone, bart. the hon. G. L. Cole, sir James Stewart, bart. and M. Archdall, esq. to attend the lords, in order to be examined as witnesses before the committee appointed to consider the matters alleged against Mr. Justice Fox, on the 18th Feb. next. The speaker, after putting the question to the
147
Mr. Creevey
brought up a petition from certain freeholders of the county of Middlesex, claiming to have had a right to vote at the last election for that county, setting forth that at the last election of a knight of the shire for the county of Middlesex, sir F. Burdett, bart. and G. B. Mainwaring, esq. were candidates to represent the same county in parliament; that, on the shew of hands, the then sheriff declared the majority to be in favor of the said sir F. Burdett; that thereupon a poll was duly demanded in favor of the said G. B. Mainwaring, and was proceeded on from day to day; that, at the close of the said election, the said sheriff returned the said G. B. B. Mainwaring as duly elected to represent the said county in parliament; that, after the demanding the said poll, and previously to the granting thereof, or proceeding on the same, the qualification of the said G. B. Mainwaring to represent the said county in parliament, was duly requested of him, and the said G. B. Mainwaring was thereby required to swear to the same, according to the provisions of the statute in that behalf made and provided: that, on such request being made, the said G. B. Mainwaring insisted that the provisions of the said act of parliament above referred to, did not extend to him, he being the eldest son and heir apparent of a person qualified by the said statute to serve as a knight of a shire; but, immediately afterwards, the said G. B. Mainwaring took his corporal oath, in the form, and to the effect, prescribed by the said statute, and swore that he truly and
bonâ fide
148
[ARMY ESTIMATES.]
The Secretary at War
presented the army estimates for 1805, with the exception of some papers relative to the volunteer service, and to the barrack department, which could not be made out in time. He observed, that as the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Windham) whose motion on the military state of the country stood for Monday, had consented, with a view to facilitate the dispatch of public business, to postpone it for a few days, he would move that the papers he had just presented to the house should be taken into consideration on Monday next. Agreed to.
Col. Cakraft
wished to have the estimates printed, as otherwise it was impossible that they could be completely understood by every member of the house, on account of the difficulty that would occur from every member perusing one manuscript account.
149
The Secretary at War
said, that he was extremely unwilling that any proper information should be withheld from the house; but he suggested, that the printing of these papers would take up so much time, that little opportunity of examining them would be afforded previous to the discussion.
Col. Calcraft
observed, that in that case some degree of blame attached to the secretary at war for not bringing them in sooner. If the public service absolutely required that they should be discussed on Monday next, and if they could not conveniently be printed before that time, then be would acquiesce. But they certainly ought to have been presented in proper time to have them printed. It was impossible that the members of the house could accurately examine their contents while they lay unprinted on the table, and he should therefore think it his duty to persevere in his intention of moving chat they should be printed, unless it was positively 6tated, that this would be injurious to the public service.
The Secretary at War
said, that it was never the custom to have them printed. The usual mode of proceeding was to lay the estimates on the table, and move for their discussion the week after. As he did not, however, wish to withhold any information from the house, he would not object to the printing. The papers were accordingly ordered to be printed.
[WAK WITH SPAIN.]
Mr. Grey
rose and stated, that as he by no means wished to anticipate the full discussion of the Spanish business, which was so soon to take place, and as he understood that no material objections were likely to be made to the motions which he was about to submit to the house, he should not occupy their time with many preparatory remarks. During the long negotiation which had preceded our rupture with Spain, much must have passed of which the house were yet ignorant. In the official correspondence that had been laid before them, there were numerous chasma which he wished to see supplied, and it was for this purpose that he had prepared the motions which he had prepared the motions which he now held in his hand. When our govt. received the first information of the pecuniary succours afforded by Spain to France, it must have been productive of minute instructions to our ambassador at Madrid, and of considerable discussions with the Spanish govt. His first motion,
150
151
152
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose. He said, he allowed, that every means which would enable the house to discuss mope completely the weighty question which was soon to be submitted to it, was of importance; and in this view he was willing to consider the motions which the
153
Mr. Grey
expressed himself perfectly satisfied with the assurance of the right hon. gent, he wished the spirit of his motions to be adhered to rather than the letter.—The motions were put separately and agreed to, until that for laying before the house any compact or convention of neutrality that might have been entered into with Spain. On this being put,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
assured the house that he had not the slightest objection to the production of such a paper if such a paper could be found; but he could not omit the present opportunity of stating, that whatever might have been asserted by the Spanish minister, or however inadvertently the term may have been used by Mr. Frere, it was certain that no such compact, or convention, respecting the Spanish neutrality, had been in any shape entered into. There was not a single note, letter, or word of explanation which at all even alluded to any such compact.
Mr. Fox
thought this part of the subject of infinite importance. From what he could understand of it the Spanish minister had given to something that had passed between the two courts, the name of convention, and this name Mr. Frere, in his subsequent discussions with that minister, is said to have used inadvertently. Though he could not conceive the probability of
154
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had before expressed his willingness to give the house all possible information on this subject, but he again assured them, that all the information that govt. could afford them, was already in their possession. However the Spanish minister or Mr. Frere may have dwelt on the word convention, there was no paper or document whatever that bore the slightest reference to such an agreement; there never had been in any shape whatever any recognizance of a treaty of neutrality with Spain. Such a treaty had never existed; and it was merely the expression of his maj.'s inclination to forbear from hostilities against Spain, while she conducted herself within certain limits to which this term convention could have been applied by the Spanish court. Strange as it might appear, it seemed highly probable that the Spanish govt. had confounded this expression of a desire to forbear from hostilities on his maj.'s part to the nominal treaty of neutrality they about that time entered into with France, and chose to give the common name convention to both.
Mr. Fox
said, he should urge nothing further on the subject at present; but on the face of it certainly it seemed to require a great deal of explanation.
Mr. Grey
observed, that it certainly seemed very extraordinary that Mr. Frere, who must have been aware of the full meaning of the word, should still have continued to make use of it so repeatedly. There was an ambiguity about this circumstance which he could not explain. The hon. gent, here read several passages from Mr. Frere's correspondence, in order to prove that Mr. Frere had used the term convention in a decided manner; particularly at the conclusion of Mr. Frere's note of the 30th Oct. he says, "he has
155
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
maintained, that those expressions alluded solely to the treaty which Spain had entered into with France, and not to any engagements with this country.—The motion was then put and agreed to.—On the motion in which Mr. Grey wished to know the periods at which Adm. Cochrane's letters from Ferrol were received, the Chanc. of the Excheq. observed, that that point would be sufficiently ascertained on the production of other papers that has been moved for by the hon. gent.
Mr. Grey
then remarked, that the papers which had been ordered, would take up some time to prepare and print, before they could be presented to the house. As he did not think it likely that they would be in the possession of gent, in sufficient tithe before Thursday, to allow them to derive any benefit from the information they might contain, in the discussion that was fixed for that day, he was sure it would be a convenience to the house, to be informed, on what day it was the intention of the right hon. gent, that the discussion on the papers should take place.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that it would undoubtedly be impossible that the papers then ordered should be printed and presented in time to afford any light on the discussion then standing for Thursday; and as it was desirable that every information should be communicated to the house previous to that discussion, in order to enable them to come to an impartial 'decision on the whole merits of the case, he was of opinion, that the question fixed for that day's discussion should be deferred to some subsequent open day. The right hon. gent, afterwards moved, that the papers presented, and to be presented to the house, relative to the Spanish war, be taken into consideration on Thursday se'n-night. Ordered.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, January 29, 1805.
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]
Lord Mulgrave
observed, that, having learned from the recent votes of the other house of parlt.
156
Lord Grenville
shortly expressed his coincidence in the idea of its being proper that every information should be given relative to a subject of such importance as that in question, but that due time should be given for its full consideration. He was however sorry the day suggested by the noble lord had been selected; as he understood a noble friend of his had come down that day with the intent of giving notice of a motion on a subject of considerable importance on. Thursday se'nnight
157
Earl Darnley
said, it was his intention, to move to discharge the order for his motion on Monday next, with a view of proposing it for Thurdsday se'nnight. He wished at the same time to observe, that he did not intend to make any motion with respect to the general state of the army; to that task he did not think himself competent. He should merely confine himself to moving the repeal of the additional force act, which he still contended had operated as a tax, and had operated partially and unjustly. He concluded by moving to discharge the order for Monday.
Lord Hawkesbury
thought it would be better not to fix any day for the discussion of the question respecting the war with Spain until the additional papers were laid upon their 1dps table.
Lord Mulgrave
assured the house of his anxiety to have the subject fully before their 1dps., and to allow full time for its discussion; at the same time he must deprecate, with a reference to the great importance of the question, any proceedings which might interfere with its discussion on a day which might probably be proposed as convenient for that purpose.
Lord Grenville,
in explanation, adverted to the competence of any noble lord to move for a summons of the house on any given day. He deemed the opposition which noble lords, over against him, seemed inclined to give to the intended motion of his noble friend, for summoning the house for Thursday se'nnight, as rather extraordinary, even under the circumstances of the case; the option, however, certainly rested with his noble friend.
The Earl of Carlisle
deemed the opposition which the noble lords in office seemed inclined to give to the discussion of his noble friend's intended motion on Thursday, as most extraordinary, even on their own grounds. They professed their anxious wishes to have the subject fully understood and considered: why not then appoint a later day? Friday, for instance. He saw no necessity whatever for positively fixing Thursday.
Earl Camden,
shortly adverted to the great importance of the Spanish question, on the grounds alleged by his noble friends on this bench with him; at the same time, he admitted it to be more regular and consonant to the orders and practice of the house, not to propose any particular day, until the papers were upon the table.
Lord Hawkesbury,
in explanation, ad-
158
Lord Mulgrave
thanked his noble friend for adverting to his anxiety to have the subject alluded to fully considered and discussed; but he had forgotten his second consideration, which was one that equally operated upon his mind, namely, the propriety of having the question decided upon, with as little delay as the nature of the case would admit, in order, principally, that the public mind should be set at rest upon the subject.
Lord King
observed, that he saw not the least necessity for selecting the day chosen by his noble friend, as that for the discussion of the Spanish question. By what fell from a noble secretary, it appeared, that the papers which remained to be produced were, comparatively, of no great importance; in that case, wiry should not an earlier day be fixed for the discussion? If the remaining papers were of importance, and necessary to the due understanding of the subject, ministers were deserving of censure for not bringing them forward in the first instance.
Earl Darnley
then moved, that their 1dps. be summoned for Thursday se'nnight for the consideration of the repeal of the defeuce act. Ordered. — Adjourned till Thursday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, January 29, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Bulley,
from the exchequer, presented an account of the nett produce of the permanent taxes for the year ending 5th Jan. 1805. Ordered to be printed.—Mr. Pole presented the ordnance estimates for the year 1805; and gave notice, that he should move them in the committee of supply on Monday.— Lord W. Russell brought in a bill for raising a further sum of money for the prosecution of the Surrey iron railway. Read a 1st time, and ordered to be read a 2nd time.—On the motion of Mr. Long, it was ordered that the house should, at its rising, adjourn till Thursday, Wednesday
159
[MIDDLESEX ELECTION.]
Lord Marsham
moved, that the order of the day should be read for considering the report of the committee on the conduct of sir W Rawlins, knt. and R. Albion Cox, late sheriffs of the county of Middlesex, relative to their conduct at the election, in which W. Mainwaring, esq. and sir F. Burdett, bart. were the candidates for that county. After the order of the day was read, the clerk, on the motion of his 1dp. read the resolutions of the committee contained in the said report, and which were in effect as follows: "1. That it appears to this committee, that, on the 13th, 14th, and 15th days of the poll, on the first of which days there was a considerable majority of votes in favour of W. Mainwaring, esq. the sheriff, R. A. Cox, esq. and sir W. Rawlins, knt. wilfully, knowingly, and corruptly, did admit to poll for sir F. Burdett, bart. upwards of 300 persons, claiming to vote under a fictitious right as proprietors of a mill purported to be situate in the parish of Isleworth, and called the Good Intent Mill, by which means a colourable majority was obtained in favour of sir F. Burdett, who was thereby returned as having the greatest number of legal votes. 2. That it appeals to this committee, that, on the 15th day, towards the close of the poll, after such majority was established, they rejected persons tendering their votes under the same circumstances. 3d, That it appears to this committee, that the sheriff at the poll acted in a judicial capacity, by admitting counsel to argue the validity of votes, and by deciding in some instances on the validity of such votes; that in other instances they refused to decide on the validity of votes which were objected to, and stated, that
160
Lord Marsham
said, he proposed, in conformity with these precedents, to move four resolutions. 1st, That the charge should be heard at the bar. 2nd, That it should be heard on Friday, Feb. 1. 3d, That the sheriffs, sir W. Rawlins, and R. A. Cox, esq. be ordered to attend. 4th, That the said sir W. Rawlins, and R. A. Cox, esq. be furnished with a copy of the charge, and heard by counsel.— The noble lord observed, that he proposed an early day for the discussion of this business, as it was desirable that a question of so much importance, which had stood over so long, should be determined as soon as possible; and also, as he understood, that it would be attended with no inconvenience to the parties concerned, but rather agreeable to their wishes to expedite the discussion. Agreeably to the precedents already referred to, the house would perceive that it was usual to move that evidence should be heard at the bar upon such an accusation; but to that part of the course of proceeding the noble lord did not think it at all necessary to adhere upon the present occasion, because the report on the table contained a very full account of all the evidence which related to the conduct of the sheriffs; that account was taken in short hand by a person sworn to report it with fidelity, the several witnesses were interrogated by the members of the committee, who were also on their oaths, and they underwent an ample cross-examination by counsel of the highest ability employed by the accused. The circumstances of the case were therefore already before the house, and there was no necessity for the further examination of any evidence on the subject. An objection, indeed, offered against the further production of evidence, from this consideration, that witnesses not being examined on oath at the bar of the house as
161
The Speaker
called the attention of the house to the course of proceeding which the noble lord had announced his intention of adopting. In every part of that course the noble lord proposed to act consistently with the accustomed order of the house, with the exception of omitting to move for the production of evidence at the bar. This was a departure from the usage observed in the precedents which, according to the motion of the noble lord, had been read by the clerk; and also from that which had been attended to in another instance, since these precedents had occurred. From a just solicitude for the important privileges and order of the house, lie felt it his duty to notice the proposed deviation; at the same time he ob-
162
Mr. Francis
rose to ask, for information sake, for what purpose the business was at all brought before the house for consideration, if evidence was not to be examined; or upon what question the house was called on to decide? If the subject was not to be investigated at the bar the house would have nothing left to do but to adopt the opinion and recommendation of the committee; and there could be no use for the hearing of counsel. But he trusted this measure would be differently considered; for if the course proposed by the noble lord were followed, it did not appear to him that any question would remain for the discretion of the house.
Lord Marsham
stated, in reply to the hon. gent, that the question brought before the house for consideration was this., whether, from the whole body of evidence contained in the printed report on the table, and which comprehended the fullest information on both sides of the case, the committee was justified in the inference they made, and in the opinion they had pronounced upon the parties accused, and also whether any proceeding should be instituted grounded on such opinion. The noble lord repeated his objections to the farther examination of evidence.—The resolutions were then put and carried.—Adrjourned;
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, January 31, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Parke was heard for the respondents, and Mr. Nolan in reply for the appellants, in the Scotch appeal Smith and others
v.
v.
163
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, January 31, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The coal factors' indemnity bill was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time,—The house went into a committee on the malt duty bill, and in pursuance to instruction, received two clauses, the one a clause of credit, the other a clause authorising to make up the deficiency in said duty out of the supplies of the year 1805. The report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—The house' also went into a committee on the pension office, personal estate, sugar, tobacco, and snuff duties bill, in which, pursuant to instruction, clauses of the same description were received as in the former.—The report was ordered to be received to-morrow.—Mr. Foster moved the order of the day for taking into consideration the message they had received on Monday last from the lords. Sir T. Featherstone and Mervyn Archdall being present, intimated that they were willing to go to the lords, with the leave of the house. It was therefore resolved, that sir T. Featherstone and Mervyn Archdall have leave to wait on the lords; and that a message be sent to their lordships, informing them of this resolution.—On the motion of Mr. Rose, the house went into a committee on the quarantine act of the 39th and 40th of the king. Certain resolutions having been read and adopted, the house resumed, and leave was given to bring in a bill accordingly. —Mr. Graham presented an account of the number of convicts on the river Thames and at Portsmouth which was laid on the table.—Mr. Parr, from the African company, presented certain annual accounts relative to the affairs of that company.— Mr. Kinnaird gave notice, that he should move, on Tuesday next, for a copy of the report of the navy board to the admiralty, dated the 24th Nov. 1804, respecting the state of the Romney, the Nassau, and the Sybille, when under the command of sir Home Popham. If the facts in the report should turn out to be agreeable to the information he had received, he should think it his duty to endeavour to induce the house to take some further proceedings in the investigation of this business. —Mr. Giles, begged leave to call the attention of
164
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 1, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Counsel were heard, at some length relative to the Scots appeal, Hamilton and others v. Geddes. Their lordships deferred the further consideration of the case till to-morrow.—It was ordered, on the motion of the bishop of Exeter, that the lord bishop of Rochester be requested to preach before their lordships, at the collegiate church of Westminster, on Wednesday the 20th instant, being the day appointed, by his maj.'s, proclamation, for a general fast.—The bills upon the table, all of a private or local description, were forwarded in their respective stages.—On Lord Hawkesbury's moving, that this house do now adjourn,
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]—
Earl Darnley
rose, not, he said, to oppose the motion, but merely to state what he conceived to
165
Lord Mulgrave
expressed his surprise at some of the observations which fell from the noble earl. With respect, however, to the papers and documents in question, he would first say, that they were more voluminous than he had formerly occasion to apprehend, snaking a
166
167
Earl Darnley
said, he did not, nor could he ever have intended to complain, that too much information had been afforded. He would say, however, that it was the duty of ministers to have known what papers were requisite for the discussion of the question; and that they should have come prepared with them in the first instance.—Adjowned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 1, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Bouverie moved for a new writ for a commissioner to serve in parliament for Burntisland, Kirkaldy, and Dysart, in Scotland, in the room of sir J. Erskine, bart, now earl of Rosslyn.—Mr. S. Bourne for another, for Newark, in the room of sir T. M. Sutton, since appointed a baron of the exchequer; a third for Totness, in Devonshire, in the room of V. Gibbs, esq. since appointed the king's solicitor general; and a fourth in the room of R. Dallas, esq. since appointed chief justice of Chester.—The house having resolved itself into a committee of ways and means, the chancellor of the exchequer moved, that the sum of 3,000,0001. by exchequer bills, be raised for the service Of the present year; which being agreed to, he gave notice that he should propose a speedy day for taking that resolution into consideration. After which the report was ordered to be received to-morrow. —Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the malt duty and pen-s on bills. The amendments were agreed to, and the bills ordered to be read a 3d time to-morrow.—Mr.Alexander brought up the report of the committee on the quarantine act. The resolutions were agreed to, and
168
[MIDDLESEX ELECTION.]—
Lord Marsham
rose and said, that he stated on a former day, his intention of submitting to the house, this day, the manner in which he would proceed upon this subject. It was then his intention, he said, to examine witnesses at the bar on the part of the late sheriffs. But since that time, he understood those gent. had altered their mind, and did not mean to call any witnesses. In order, therefore, to give the house time to form the fullest opinion upon the evidence before them, on this subject, he trusted it would not be deemed inconvenient, if he moved to postpone the farther consideration of the business till Tuesday next; conceiving as he did, and as he was convinced the house must, that a deliberate decision would be an object much more desirable than any expedition that could be accomplished by deciding this night. He therefore moved, "that the farther proceedings on this subject be postponed till Tuesday."
Mr. Fox
rose, not he said to object to the day proposed, but to state, in a few words, his own opinion as to the mode of proceeding suggested by the noble lord. The noble lord had said it was not the intention to examine any witnesses at the bar on this subject: but he trusted, whenever that house was called on to exercise a jurisdiction, a criminal jurisdiction too, that it would found its decisions on evidence which it had itself heard, and not merely upon the evidence heard by others elsewhere. If, indeed, as he understood, from the noble lord's intimation, the late sheriffs had no objection to admit the evidence before a committee against them, certainly there could be no objection, on the part of the house, to accept that evidence as part of the grounds for its own decisions. But not calling evidence as to any thing already proved before a committee, and calling no evidence to their exculpation now, were, in his own mind, two very distinct considerations. He was decidedly of opinion, that if any matters had come to their knowledge for their own exculpation, even since the decision of the committee, it would be perfectly open for them to bring forward such evidence.
Lord Marsham
answered, that when he
169
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose, hot to make any objection to the noble lord's motion, nor to delay the house now by any argument upon the subject itself. He rose merely to express his sentiments in the first instance, respecting a principle avowed by the hon. gent, ever against him (Mr. Fox), namely, that the house, when called on to exercise its jurisdiction on this subject, should not be satisfied with the evidence taken elsewhere, but should examine evidence for its own satisfaction. Against such a principle he begged to protest, in the first instance, as contrary to the established usage of parliament, always before, and ever since the passing of Mr. Grenville's act in the year 1770: Previously to that time, it was the constant usage of the house, in deciding upon matters respecting contested elections, to form its judgment upon evidence taken before its' committees, and not to examine evidence to the same points at its bar. The Grenville act created the first alteration in the law and usage of parliament upon this head; and it must be recollected, that a. principal alteration made by that act was, that the committees for investigating such questions must be chosen by ballot, must examine all evidence on oath, and must themselves be sworn to act and decide justly, to the best of their opinion. The house then surely, would not be less inclined to accept the evidence taken before a committee so solemnly bound, now, than they would be to accept evidence before a committee not so bound, previously to the passing of the Grenville act. The precedents only in which the house did act in any degree at all different from this principle, were the Shoreham case, the Liskeard, and the Great Grimsby. In the Cricklade case some such proceeding was proposed, and the house adjourned the consideration of that case from time to time, in order to
170
Mr. Francis
thought, that evidence, ought, in every judicial proceeding, to be heard before the judges. This would be a great satisfaction to the house; and be was at present inclined to think that gent, could not, in honour and justice, decide upon a penal case without hearing evidence at the bar. He hoped, therefore, that before Tuesday, the house would deeply reflect upon a question which, independent of the present case, was in itself of so much importance.—The order, of the day was then postponed till Tuesday next.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Saturday, February 2, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The malt duty and the pension duty bill were brought from the Commons, and read a 1st time.—A message was also brought from the Commons, stating that they had given permission to sir T. Featherstone and Myrven Archdall, esq. to attend the committee of the lords on the 18th current, agreeably to their request.—Earl Camden informed the house, that the papers relative to the state of the national defence could not be ready to be laid before the house sooner than Monday.—Lord Mulgrave presented, the copies of part of the additional papers which had been moved for relative to the rupture with Spain. It had been impossible, his ldp. said, to have copies of the whole prepared to be laid on the table of the house that day. They were, however, all printed, and ready to be delivered to their ldps. It was his wish that the consideration of this subject should take place on Friday next. He therefore moved that the lords be summoned for that day. Or dered.—Adjourned.
171
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Saturday, February 2, 1805.
MINUTES.]
On the motion of Mr. Hobhouse, the malt duty and pensions duties bills were read a 3d time, and ordered to the lords.—Mr. Huskisson brought up the assessed tax commissioners indemnity bill, which was read a 1st time, and ordered to be read a 2d time en Monday next.—The house went into a committee on the qualification indemnity-bill; the report was ordered to be received on Monday.—Mr. I Dickinson, jun. brought up the report of the committee of ways and means of yesterday. The resolution for the issue of 3 millions of exchequer bills was agreed to, and a bill ordered to be brought in accordingly.—The sec. at war presented an estimate of the sums wanted for the barrack department for the year 1805, which were ordered, to be printed.—The chanc. of the excheq. presented the additional papers relative to the war with Spain, moved for on a former day by Mr. Grey, see p. 149; printed copies of which he said were ready to be distributed to members at the door. They are as follows:
FIRST ADDITIONAL PAPERS RELATIVE TO THE DISCUSSION WITH SPAIN IN 1803 and 1804, PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY'S' COMMAND TO BOTH HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT, 2d FEBRUARY 1805 (see p. 61.)
No. 1.—Extract of a
Dispatch from. J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid,
June
recd.
July.
(
Translation of Inclosure in
Extract of Intelligence from Bayonne, dated
172
No. 2.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid, 6th July
reed.
d Aug,
173
174
No. 3.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frerc, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid, 7th July
recd.
175
NO. 4.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frefe, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid,
July
Aug.
No. 5.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. M. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid,
Aug.
recd.
Sep.
176
No. 6.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid,
th Aug.
recd.
th Sep.
177
No. 7.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Escurial,
Oct.
recd.
Nov.
178
179
No. 8.—
Extract of Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Escurial,
th Oct.
recd.
th Nov.
No. 9—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Escurial,
th Oct.
recd.
th Nov.
180
No. 10.—
Extract of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid,
th Dec.
recd.
th Dec.
No. 11 —
Copy of a Dispatch from Ld. Hawkesbury to J. H. Frere, Esq. dated Downing-Street,
st Jan.
181
No. 12 —
Copy of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid, 3d March,
recd.
(
Inclosure in
Copy of a Letter from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Sir E. Pellew, dated Madrid,
th Jan.
182
No. 13. —
Copy of a Dispatch from J. H. Frere, Esq. to Ld, Hawkesbury, dated Madrid,
th March,
recd.
(
Translation referred to in
Aranjnez, 3d March,
183
No. 14.—Extract of a Dispatch from J.H. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Madrid, 5th Mar l804; recd, the 29th.—A conversation which I had this morning with the prince of peace, has so much confirmed me in the opinion which I have already stated to your ldp. that I cannot avoid mentioning some particulars of it. It seems the French had sent to demand the payment of an instalment of their subsidy, which I suppose impressed the subject more strongly on his mind. After a good deal of other conversation, he complained of the uncertainty in which they were kept with respect to the intentions of England; that their trade was ruined; that the merchants dared not make any expeditions; and he concluded by dwelling on the general embarrassment created by their present uncertainty of bringing home their money from America, and the scarcity and distress throughout the country. I said that I had already mentioned to him the necessary preliminary to any understanding upon this head, namely, the communication of the treaty. He repeated the same objection which he had made use of before, and which is mentioned in a former letter to your ldp. and when I remarked upon the unreasonableness of expecting that G. Brit, should give her assent lo an unknown agreement, he said that it was a subject in which he bad nothing to do, and which belonged to the secretary of state. I shall accordingly make it the object of a conference with M. Cevallos, and intend going to Aranjuez for that purpose.
No. 15.—
Translation of a letter from the Chev. d'Anduaga to Ld. Hawekesbury, dated Portland Place,
th March,
184
185
186
187
No. 16.—
Translation of a Letter from the Cheo. D'Andumga, to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Portland-Place,
th March,
188
189
No. 17.
Translation of a Letter from the Chev. d'Anduaga to Ld. Hawkesbury, dated Portland Place,
st May,
[
Translation of Inclosure in
190
No. 18.—
Extract of a dispatch from £. H.
Frere, Esq. to Ld. Harrowby,
th July,
received
th July.
The subsidy paid by this country to France had been regularly acquitted up to the month of May, at the rate of 800,000 dollars per month. A new expedient has since been hit upon for enabling the French govt, to avail itself of the resources of Spain to an extent which will not be limited by those difficulties which must sooner or later have put as top to the extraction of specie. A loan of 5 millions of dollars has been negotiated at Paris in favor of this govt, or, more properly speaking, in favor of that of France, as it is not to be imagined that any part of it will ever find its way into this country, or be applied to any other purpose than that of the payment of the stipulated tribute. It is agreed that the
191
NO. 19—
Copy of a dispatch from Ld. Hawkesbury to B. Frere, Esq. dated Downing Street,
th Sept.
No. 20.—
Extract of a Dispatch from B. Frere, Esq. to Ld. Harrowby, dated Ma-
192
drid,
th Oct.
rec.
d Nov.
No. 21—
Translation of a Letter from the Chev. D'Anduvga to Ld. Harrowby, dated Portland Place,
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
The Chev. D'ANDUAGA.
No. 22—
Copy of a Letter from G. Hammond, Esq. to J. H. Frere, Esq. dated Downing street,
th Dec.
(
Inclosure referred to in
Extract of a Note from the Chev. D'Anduaga to Ld. Harrowby, dated
Dec.
201
No. 23.—
Letter from J. H. Frere, Esq. to G. Hammond, Esq. dated London,
th Dec.
status quo
202
No. 24.—
Extract of a Letter from Lt.-gen. Nugent, to the Rt. Hon. Ld. Hobart dated Jamaica,
th Jan.
No. 25.—
Extract of a Letter from Gov. Halkett, to the Rt. Hon. Ld. Habart, dated Bahamas,
th Jan.
Translation, of Inclosure in
Jago de Cuba,
th Jan.
203
No. 26.—
Extract of a Letter from Gov. Halkett, to the Rt. Hon. Ld. Hobart, dated Bahamas,
d Feb.
recd.
th April following.
No. 27 —"
Extract of a Letter from
204
Gov. Halkett, to tie Rt. Hon. Ld Hobart, dated Government-House, Bahamas,
th Feb.
recd.
th April following.
No. 28.—
Extract of a Letter from Gov. Halkett, to the Rt. Hon. Ld. Hobart, dated Government-house, Bahamas,
th April,
recd.
th June following.
205
No. 29.—
Extract of a Letter from Gov. Halkett, to the Rt. Hon. Ld. Hobart, dated Government-house, Bahamas,
th May,
No. 30—
Extract of a Letter from Lt. Gov. Nugent to the Right Hon. Ld. Hobart, dated Jamaica,
th May,
206
(
Inclosure in
Copy of a Letter from Lt. Gov. Nugent and Sir J. T. Duckworth to the Gov. of the Havanna, dated King's House, Jamaica,
th April,
J. NUGENT. J. T. DUCKWORTH.
207
No. 31.—
Copy of an Order from Sir E. Pellew, Bart, to Capt. Wallis, of his Maj.'s skip Naiad, dated on board the Tonnant, off the Coast of Spain, the
th Aug.
No. 32.—
Copy of a Letter from Capt. Wallis, of his Maj.'s ship Naiad, to his Brit. Maj.'s Acting Consul at Corunna, dated in Corunna,
th Aug.
J. WALLIS.
No. 33—
Copy of a Letter from Capt. Wallis to the Capt. Gen. of Galicia, dated on board his Maj.'s Ship Naiad, in Corunna,
th Aug.
208
J. WALLIS.
No. 34.—
Copy of a Letter from P. Morrogh, Esq. his Majesty's Consul at Corunna, to Capt. Wallis, of the Naiad, dated.
th Aug.
P. MORROGH.
No. 35—
Copy of a Letter from Mr. Morrogh, British Consul at Corunna, to Capt. J. Wallis, dated
th Aug.
209
(
Inclosure in
Translation of the Gov. of Corunna's Answer to Capt. Wallis's First Letter, dated Corunna,
th Aug.
No. 36—
Copy of a Letter from Capt. Wallis to the Capt. Gen. of Galicia, dated on board his Brit. Maj,'s ship Naiad, in Corunna,
th Aug.
210
211
J. WALLIS.
No. 37.—
Copy of a Letter from Mr. T. Morrogh, Acting Consul at Corunna, to Capt. Wallis of the Naiad, dated Corunna,
th Aug.
NO. 38.—
Copy of a Letter of Capt Wallis of the Naiad to Mr. Morrogh, his Maj.'s Consul at Corunna, dated
th Aug.
J. WALLIS.
212
No. 39.—
Copy of a Letter from, Pt. Morrogh, Esq. Brit. Consul at Corunne.,to Capt J Wallis, dated 19th Aug.
No. 40.——
Extract of a Letter from Capt. Sir E. Pellew, Bart, to the hon. Adm. Cornwallis, dated of Cape Prior, 24th of Aug.
213
No. 41.—
Extract of a Letter from Rear Adm. Sir R. Colder, Bart, to Adm. Cornwallis, dated on board his Maj.'s ship Prince of Wales, of Corunna, the 12th of Sept.
No. 42.—
Extract of a Letter from Sir E. Pellew to the Hon. Adm. Corwallis, dated Tonnant, Entrance of Betancos Bay,
th Jan.
No. 43—
Extract of Information from Sir E. Pellow), received in Adm. Cornwallis's Letter of
th Jan.
No. 44—
Copy of a Letter from Don Diego Contador, Governor of Ferrol, to Sir E. Pellew, Bart, dated
th Feb.
214
No. 45.—
Copy of a Letter from Sir E. Pellew, Bart, to Don D. Contador, Gov. of Ferrol, dated on board the Tonnant, off Ferrol,
th Feb.
215
216
(
Inclosure in No.
Declaration of the Officer in (lie Boat, inclosed in the Letter of Sir E. Pellew. Burt. to. Don D. Contador, Gov. of Ferrot, dated on board the Tonnant,
th Feb.
No. 46.—
Copy of a Letter from Don D. Contador, Gov. of Ferrol, to Sir E, Pellew, Bart, dated
th Feb.
217
D. CONTAADOR.
No. 47.—
Copy of a Letter from Don D. Contador, Gov. of Ferrol, to Sir E. Pellew, Bart, dated
th Feb.
No. 48.—
Copy of a Letter from Sir E. Pellew, Bart, to Don D. Contador, gov. of Ferrol, dated on board the Tonnant, off Ferrol,
th Feb.
218
No. 49.—
Extract of a Letter from Sir E. Pellew, Bart, to the Hon. Adm. Cornwallis, dated on board the Tonnant, off Ferrol,
th May,
No. 50.—
Extract of a Letter from the Hon Rear-Adm. Cochrane to the. Hon. Adm. Cornwallis, dated on board the Northumberland off Ferrol,
th May,
d.
d.
s.
s.
s.
d.
No. 51.—
Extract of a Letter from the Hon. Rear-Adm. Cochrane to the Hon Adm. Cornwallis, dated on board the Northumber
219
land, Betanzos Bay near Ferrol,
d May,
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 4, 1805.
[ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]
Lord Hawkesbury,
by command of his majesty, presented certain military accounts and documents, chiefly respecting the levies under the additional force act, which were ordered to lie on the table.
Earl Darnley
thereupon rose, and expressed himself not particularly desirous to agitate the proposition of which he had given notice on Thursday next. He should therefore move, that the order for summoning their ldps. upon Thursday next be discharged, and that an order for a similar purpose be made for a future day, which, in consideration of some important matter being proposed by a noble friend of his for Monday, he should propose to be on tomorrow se'nnight. The noble earl accordingly moved that the lords be summoned for that day.
Lord Hawkesbury
wished it to be understood, that the arrangement just proposed by the noble earl did not proceed from any thing wished for by his maj.'s ministers in that house; it would prove no sort of accommodation to them, as, if the proposition the noble earl had given notice of, was to be discussed distinctly from the subject of the general military state of the country, it was a matter of indifference to them when it was agitated.—While on his legs, the noble secretary requested a noble lord, then in his place (King), to give him an idea of the nature of his intended motion on Monday, as he had stated it so generally in the first instance, that he could not satisfactorily comprehend its object.
Lord King
professed himself willing to give the information desired by the noble secretary. His intended motion was for the production of an account of the monies remitted to Ireland on account of the governments of both countries, under the new arrangement, the object of which, he understood, was a reduction of the rate of the exchange between this country, and Ireland.
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]
Lord-Grenville
said, that although he was prepared to
220
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that it was not the intention of ministers to withhold any information which could with propriety be granted; he wished, however, that the noble lord would not press his motion at present, but allow govt. time to consider which of the papers it would be in their power to produce; they would be able to do that by to-morrow.
Lord Grenville
said, it would be extremely inconvenient for him to come down to-morrow; however, if ministers could not make up their minds immediately, he must be under the necessity either of attending to-morrow, or of getting some other noble lord to move for him.
221
Lord Mulgrave
said, that it had been his duty to make the selection of the papers which had been laid before parliament, from a very voluminous correspondence; and as no part of the negotiation had been conducted by him, he could not be supposed to be as fully master of the subject as the noble lord who lately filled the situation, which was now unworthily filled by him. Possibly, some papers might have been omitted, which should have been produced. All he could say, was, that if his noble friend would favour him with a list of the papers he intended to move for, he would come to a determination as to whether they could or ought to be laid before the house by to-morrow.
Lord Grenville
observed, that he could not refuse acceding to the noble lord's proposal. He would put the list of motions into the noble sec.'s hands, and trust to his honour and discretion to produce such of them as he should think necessary to be made public.
Lord Mulgrave
expressed his obligations to his noble friend, and said, that he would take care to apprise him, in the course of the morning, how far his motions could be complied with.
Lord Grenville
said, he would state, for the satisfaction of the house, what the papers were which he thought should be laid before their ldps. He wished, exclusive of those which he had already mentioned, that the answers which had been returned by lord Hawkesbury, to the different letters of M. d'Anduaga, should be brought forward. The document, however, which he was the most anxious to obtain, was the information imparted to lord Harrowby by M. d'Anduaga, respecting the armaments at Ferrol, as upon that would depend the propriety of the orders for the capture of the Spanish frigates. Although that information might have been verbally communicated, it was to be presumed, notwithstanding, that his noble friend had made some minute of the conversation for the information of the other members of the administration. If that were not so, it would yet be practicable to give their ldps. the information besought, by applying to his noble friend in the same way that information had been obtained from Mr. Frere, respecting a point on which there was some doubt. He wished also to obtain a copy of such answer, if any, as had been made to M. d'Anduaga's letter of the 22d Dec. He wished also for a copy
222
HOUSE OF C0MMOM.
Monday, February 4, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Lord Henniker took the oaths and his seat for the county of Rutland.—Sir E. Nepean brought up an account of the expences and debt of the navy, to the 31st Dec. 1804.—The coal merchants' indemnity, and the Surry iron railway bill was read 2d time, and ordered to be committed.—Mr. Rose brought up the bill for making better provision for the quarrantine service, which was read a. 1st time. On his, moving that the bill be read a 2d time, he said, he felt it necessary to explain to the house the objects of the bill. The act of the 39th and 40th of the king invested his maj. and council with certain powers, which it was the purpose of this bill to enlarge and extend. His maj. by that bill, was enabled by his proclamation to subject to quarantine all vessels coming from countries infected with the plague. The present bill extended the like power with respect to ships coming from any countries infected with any other epidemical diseases which might be dangerous to the health of this country. It also went to empower his maj. to force persons who may have landed in this country from on board of such vessels clandestinely, to return on board forthwith on pain of death. It also had a clause to indemnify the members of the privy council for obliging certain persons who had landed from the wreck of a vessel from Gibraltar, and obliged to perform quarantine, to return on board of the vessel so wrecked, and take with them the persons resident in a public house where they had taken refuge, after their landing, in consequence of which some of those persons, were drowned. He admitted the case was certainly a hard one; but it was but a partial evil compared with the much more extensive and alarming one which the order was calculated to prevent. He concluded by moving, "that the bill be read a 2d time on Friday next. Ordered.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of
223
[PRINCE OF WALES'S ISLAND.]
Mr. Johnstone,
in rising to move the house on this subject, thought it sufficiently proved that he did not mean to trouble the house causelessly, when he stated, that on a ballot at the India house relative to the proposed establishment at that island, there were 325 out of 736 against the question; which was thus carried by a majority of only 86. The papers he meant to move for, were merely such as were necessary to put the house in possession of the subject. The hon. gent, then moved, for a copy of lord Castlereagh's letter, dated 9th Sept. 1804, to the chairman of the court of directors, relative to Prince of Wales's Island, with the inclosures contained in that letter; also, an estimate of the expence of building a 74-gun ship, and a 36-gun frigate at Bombay; also, copies of two letters from Sir A. S. Hammond to the chairman of the E. India comp. dated 29th and 30th Oct. 1804.; also, an account of the proceedings of the commissioners for the affairs of India, and the court of directors, respecting the Prince of Wales's Island, so far as the same may be disclosed without prejudice to the public service. Ordered.
[COMMISSION OR NAVAL INQUIRY.]
Mr. Creevey
said, that understanding a commission had been issued, granting large and extraordinary powers to those to whom it was addressed, for acting on the reports of the existing commission of naval inquiry, he should move, "that an humble address be presented to his maj. praying, that he would be graciously pleased to order the proper officer to lay before the house a copy of the commission lately issued by the crown to sir C. Middleton and others, authorising them to act according as they should deem right, with respect to certain subjects contained in the reports of the commissioners of naval inquiry."
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
said, this commission did not answer either to the description given of it in the motion, or to that which the hon. gent. gave in the observation with which he prefaced the motion. The hon. gent. had described the commission as giving large and discretionary powers: it gave no such powers, it limited precisely the powers it gave, and the objects of those powers. The commissioners were only impowered to digest and report to the admiralty the beat means
224
Mr. Creevey
gave notice, that on an early day he should make a motion for information, whether any proceedings had been instituted by the lords of the treasury against John Fordyce, esq. who appeared indebted to the public in the sum of 80,000l.
The Chanc. of tie Excheq.
said, if any motion were to be made on this subject, it would be perfectly competent to the hon. gent. to make it now. It happened that Mr. Fordyce was one of the persons to whom the commission lately adverted to by the hon. gent. was issued, as one of the fittest persons to carry it into execution; and he had no doubt of his appearing blameless, with respect to the deficiency the hon. gent. meant to make the subject of his motion.
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]
Mr. Grey
rose to inquire whether anymore papers were to be laid before the house, in addition to the two sets which had already been delivered? There still appeared to him to be a very great deficiency in those popers, and he wished to know whether this deficiency was likely to be supplied by the production of any additional papers?
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
replied, that there were some more papers to be delivered, and that he expected them every minute. The hon. gent. would then be better able to judge, whether there still remained any deficiency or not.
Mr. Grey,
after all the information which the papers already moved for contained, still expressed himself of opinion that there were several important deficiencies to be supplied, and points of the highest consequence to be explained. The deficiencies at present existing, were of papers from the office of the sec, for the foreign department, and the board of admiralty. Of the latter he should, at present, say nothing, because all the papers he had moved for were not yet produced, and till they were on the table, he could not ascertain to what extent the deficiency of evidence existed. As to the deficiencies from
225
226
227
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
said, the papers he expected to present this day would afford as good answers as could be given to the inquiries of the hon. gent. There were
228
Mr. Fox
strongly contended for the importance of having such explanations as look place at different conferences alluded to in the dispatches laid before the house. The explanations contained in the conferences of the 9th and the 30th of March, must, from the language of the letter of the 1st of May, have been highly interesting, and ought, by all means, to be produced. The chanc. of the excheq. had indeed stated, that mere notes, presented by an ambassador, perhaps merely offering a private opinion, and not authorized by his court, could not afford any information to the house. He, for his part, begged leave to argue that this was not a fair view of the subject. It was not possibe to conceive from the language of the Spanish ambassador, when alluding to explanations which had taken place at conferences, that he delivered in unauthorized notes. It was, on the contrary, quite evident that he alluded to authorized explanations, in which he laid down the principles and views of his court. It was impossible to believe that the notes which passed on such occasion were uninteresting. The presumption was certainly directly the reverse, and the house ought to have an opportunity of exercising their judgment on the subject. He was therefore anxious for the production, of all such explanations as would tend to
229
Mr. Grey
argued, that the notes given in by the Spanish ambassador at the conferences alluded to, were, if not official, at most, important documents. They were representations of the principles and policy of the Spanish govt. and in that light were highly requisite to guide the judgment of the house. That they were merely minutes and not signed in the usual diplomatic, style was a matter of no consideration. Their spirit was not on account of their form at all affected. He should therefore, to-morrow, move for copies of the notes delivered, and of explanations which took place at those conferences to which the Spanish ambassador in his letters alluded. Here the discussion terminated, and shortly after,
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
presented to the house some further papers relative to the war with Spain; which were ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The following are correct copies of the said papers:
SECOND ADDITIONAL PAPERS RELATIVE TO THE DISCUSSION WITH SPAIN IN 1803 and 1804, PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY'S COMMAND TO BOTH HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT, 4th FEBRUARY, 1805.
No. 1.—
Extract of a Letter from W. Warre, Esq, his Majesty's acting Consul at Porto, to Sir E. Nepean, dated 26th July,
230
No. 2.—
Natal Occurrences reported by Mr. Duff, his Maj.'s Consul at Cadiz, for Aug.
231
No. 3—
Extract of a Letter from Sir J. T. Duckworth, to Sir E, Nepean, dated Shark, Port-Royal, Jamaica, 2d Oct. 1803.
No. 4.—
Extract of a Letter from J. Duff, Esq. his Maj.'s Consul at Cadiz, to W. Marsden, Esq. dated 14th Oct. 1803.
No. 5.—
Extract of a private Note from Mr. J. Hunter, his Brit. Maj.'s. Consul at Madrid, dated 22d. Oct. 1803, to Sir E. Pellew.
No. 6.—
Extract of a Letter from. Rear-Adm. Sir E. Pellew, dated on board the Tonnant, off Ferrol, 24th Oct.
to Adm. Cornwallis.
232
No. 7.
—Navel Occurrences for Oct. to be reported by Mr. Duff. Ships ordered to be fitted out.
Ships fitting out at Carthagena.
No. 8.—
Naval Occurrences for Nov.
reported by Mr. Duff, his Maj.'s Consul at Cadiz.
233
No. 9.—
Extract of a Letter from Rear-Adm. Sir E. Pellew, dated on board the Tonnant, off Ferrol,
st Dec.
to Adm. Cornwallis.
(
Inclosure in No.
Extract of Information from Sir E. Pellew, inclosed in Adm. Cornwallis's Letter, dated on board the Ville de Paris, off Ushant,
th Jan.
to Adm. Cornwallis.
No. 10.—
Naval Occurrences for 6th Dec.
reported by Mr. Duff, his Maj.'s Consul at Cadiz.
234
No. 11.—
Copy of a Letter from Mr. J. Duff, his Maj.'s Consul at Cadiz, to Sir E. Nepean, dated 22d Dec.
No. 12.—
Extract of a Letter from Vice-Adm. Sir J. T. Duckworth, K. B. Commander in Chief of his Maj.'s Ships and Vessels at Jamaica, to Sir E. Nepean, Bart, dated on board the Shark, the Port Royal Harbour,
th Jan.
(
Inclosure in No.
Extract of a Letter dated St. Jago de Cuba,
th Jan.
235
No. 13.—
Naval Occurrences at Cadiz for Jan.
repoted by Mr. Duff, his Maj.'s Consul at that place.
236
No. 14.—
Extract of a Letter from Adm. Cornwallis to W. Marsden, Esq. dated on board the Ville de Paris, off Ushant, the
th Feb.
State of the Naval Force in Ferrol, inclosed in a Letter from Adm. Corawallis, dated
th Feb.
No. 15.—
Copy of a Letter from Vice Adm. Sir J. T. Duckworth, dated on board the Shark, Port-Royal, Jamaica,
th Mar.
to Sir E. Nepean.
237
No. 16.—
Copy of a Letter from Vice-Adm. Sir J. T. Duckworth, dated on board the Shark, Port Royal,
March,
to Sir E. Nepean.
(
Inclosure in No.
Ship Enterprise, Havanna,
th Jan.
C. LAWSON.
238
No. 17.—
Naval Occurrences reported by Mr. Duff, his Maj.'s Consul at Cadiz, for May,
239
No. 18 —
Extract of a Letter from Rear-Adm. Cochrane to Lord Melville, dated 15th June
(
Inclosure in No.
No. 19.—
Extract of a Letter from Rear-Adm. Cochrane to Lord Melville, dated
No. 20.—
Naval Occurrences at Cadiz for July 1804, reported by Mr. Duff, his Maj.'s Consul at that Place.
240
241
No. 21—
Extract of a Letter from Rear-Adm. Cochrane to Lord Melville,
d Aug.
No. 22.—
Naval Occurrences at Cadiz for Aug.
reported By Mr. Duff, his Maj.'s Consul at that place.
242
No. 23.—
Extract of a Letter from. Rear-Adm. Cochrane, to Ld. Melville, dated
(Inclosure in No.
List of the Squadron of Spanish Ships of War fitting at Ferrol.
No. 24.—
Extract of a Letter from Rear-
243
Adm. Cochrane, to Ld. Melville, dated
th. Sept.
No. 25.—
Extract of a Letter from Rear-Adm. Cochrane, to Adm. Cornwallis, dated on board the Northumberland, off Ferrol,
No. 26.—
Extract of a Letter from Rear Adm. Cochrane, to Ld. Melville, dated
(First Inclosure in No.
Copy of a Letter from Rear-Adm. Cochrane, to the Capt. Gen. of Marine, Ferrol, dated his Brit. Maj.'s Ship Northumberland, off Ferrol,
244
A. COCHRANE.
(Second Inclosure in No.
Copy of a Letter from the Capt. Gen. of Marine at Ferrol, to Rear-Adm. Cochrane, dated
245
FELIX DE TEXADA.
(Third Inclosure in No.
Copy of 2d Letter from the Copt. Gen. of Marine at Ferrol, to Rear-Adm. Cochrane,
FELIX DE TEXABA.
(
Fourth Inclosure in No.
Copy of a Letter fram Rear-Adm. Cochrane, to the Capt. Gen. of Marine, dated his Maj.'s ship Northumberland, off Ferrol,
th of Sept.
A. COCHRANE.
(
Fifth Inclosure in No.
Copy of a Letter from the Capt. Gen, of Marine, to Rear-Adm, Cochrane, dated
th Sept,
246
No. 27. —
Naval Occurrences at Cadiz, &c. for Sept.
reported by Mr. Duff, his Maj.'s consul at that Place.
247
No. 28—
Extract of a Letter from Capt. Gore of the Medusa, dated 5th Oct.
No. 29—
Copy of a Letter from Capt. J. C. White, to Lord Melville, 19M Oct.
J. C. WHITE.
[ARMY ESTIMATES.]
On the motion of the Secretary at War the house went into a committee of supply, to which were referred the several estimates relative to the army.
The Secretary at War
said, it became his duty to call the attention of the house to
248
l.
l.
l.
l.
249
l.
l.
NUMBERS
£.
s.
d.
Guards, Garrisons, &c.
143,920
4,945,920
12
8
Forces in the Plantations, &c.
46,952
1,424,920
11
7
General and staff officers, with a state of the particulars of the charge
288,858
3
2
India forces
20,145
471,461
0
11
Troops and companies for recruiting ditto
460
25,410
18
4
Recruiting and contingencies
175,866
7
8
Embodied militia and fencible infantry
163,328
2,663,751
18
2
Contingencies for ditto
65,692
6
2
Clothing for ditto
198,793
0
0
Full pay to supernumerary officers
34,469
6
8
Offices
191,838
8
10
Allowance to innkeep-kcepers, &c.
476,699
5
0
Half pay and military allowances
181,288
16
5
do. American forces
50,000
0
0
do. Scotch brigade
1,000
0
0
In-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainhan hospitals
53,227
19
5
Out-pensioners of ditto
196,169
11
11
Widows' pensions
29,237
19
5
Foreign corps
17,386
851,350
6
4
Hospital expences (Ireland
20,522
11
10
Royal military college (with the general staff and particulars of the senior and junior departments)
13,315
6
4
Royal military asylum
23,458
6
1
Barrack department (Ireland)
483,698
11
8
332,191
12,866,951
8
7
Deduct the India force
20,145
471,461
0
11
Total
312,046
12,395,490
7
8
250
Mr. Francis
said, that he saw by the estimates there was a charge for 20,145 troops in India. He wished to know whether these were Europeans independent of the troops of the Company. He was desirous also of knowing whether the regiments composing this aggregate number were nearly complete.
The Secetary at War,
in reply, said, that the troops were independent of the Company's forces; and that as far as he could understand, the numbers of the regiments were nearly complete.
Mr. Francis
contended, that the number of European troops in India could not be much above 8 or 9000.
The Secretary at War
declared, that though he could not precisely state their number, he was sure they were far above what the hon. gent, had represented.—The motion was then put and agreed to.—Upon the resolution respecting officers of the staff,
Col. Carlcraft
said, it was not his wish unnecessarily to delay or interrupt the committee, but he could not suffer this item "in the estimate to pass unnoticed. The charge for general officers, he said, was most enormous; and how such a number could be deemed necessary, he was utterly at a loss to account. In England there were, he observed, no less than 136 general officers; in Scotland 17; in Ireland 57; which, with one in Guernsey, and another in Jersey, made the whole number no less than 212; a thing, he said, quite unparalleled in the history of the country, in any age; and the necessity for which, it would have become the right hon. gent, to have explained in a less summary way than he had been pleased to do. With respect to the volunteer force of the country, it was said, that a great number of staff officers were necessary to attend to their discipline; but to his knowledge, those corps for some lime past had been by no means so numerous on their parades, or in the field, as heretofore; and it appeared to him, that a great many more people were employed to attend to those corps that were at all necessary.
The Secretary at War
replied, that the hon. gent, enjoyed an opportunity on the present occasion, in combating those items in his estimates from the aid. of a printed estimate, which he would hot have had but for his good nature in acceding to the motion for that purpose on a former night; as this was almost the only instance of
251
Col. Carlcraft
replied, that as long as he had a seat in that house, he should feel it his right and his duty to exact, either from the good nature of the right hon. gent, or any other who might fill his station, or from the authoritative influence of the house, the production of printed estimates; for when so enormous a portion of the public money was to be voted, he thought the house had as good right to examine printed estimates, as upon any other head of public expenditure.
Mr. Kinnaird
congratulated the house upon the acquisition of a secretary at war, who possessed not only so much good nature as the right hon. gent, but so much of another quality, which he should not name, as to boast of it. However, he himself concurred in opinion with the hon. member who spoke last, that a great deal of unnecessary expence was lavished in the pay of inspecting brigadiers to the volunteer corps; and these, too, were always at variance with the old field officers appointed to superintend those corps; so that it was to be apprehended, their disputes would at length break out into something extremely serious to the public service. Brigadier-.generals might have been wisely appointed in the first instance, but it would be very unwise to continue them when they could be no longer serviceable.
Mr. Whitbread
was of opinion, that any increase in the staff establishment, with a view to the improvement of the volunteers in discipline, by the appointment of brigadier generals, was wholly unnecessary. From his own experience he could affirm, that no advantage whatever had been derived from such appointments; he therefore thought it imprudent to add, so
252
The Chanc. of the Exchequer
stated, as the ground of this particular arrangement, that in the circumstances of the country it might have been necessary to collect a large body of troops to a particular point, and that large bodies of troops could not be marched on such service, without the assistance of brig, generals. Whilst there was such a case to be looked to, it was deemed right not to wait for their appointment till the moment when their services would be necessary, but to make the appointments some time before the occasion would be likely to arrive. As the defence of the country would ultimately depend, in a considerable degree, on the efficiency of the volunteers, he was sure the house would not feel indisposed to agree to any expenditure that was to be directed to that object. From the latest returns that had been received, it appeared, that the volunteers amounted to more than 325,000 effective men. Of that number 240,000 had been inspected, and were reported by the proper officers effective, and fit for immediate service. About 40,000 only remained yet to be in? spected. After such a representation, he was confident the house would not consider the sum of 50,000
l.
Mr. Whitbread
admitted, that the sum was not very material; but it remained for the right hon. gent. to shew that such an expenditure was necessary, or that it contributed in any degree to promote the discipline of the volunteers. In his opinion, without meaning to derogate from the character of the officers alluded to, the improved discipline of the volunteers was not at all owing to those general. Not one jot of that discipline was he disposed to attribute tp their orders or management. On the contrary, it seemed rather to proceed from the activity of the inspecting officers, who were as competent to forward those returns which were alleged as one cause for the new appointments, as any generals whatever. On the whole, he had much doubt of the propriety of such various appointments for the volunteers as major-generals, brigadier? generals, and inspecting officers. If either of these could, with all its appendages, be dispensed with, it would form a
253
Col. Calcraft
compared the estimate of last year with that now under consideration, and asserted that his original statement was correct; that in the sum proposed to be voted, there was an increase beyond the vote of last year, of 134,0001. He referred to the two estimates for the proof of this difference, notwithstanding the positive assertion of the right hon. secretary at war.—The motion was agreed to.
The Secretary at War
then moved, that the sum of 2,663,751
l.
Col. Carlcraft
said, that although the right hon. gent. had stated, in his opening, that it was intended to reduce the militia, yet the vote proposed was for the provision of the present establishment. He wished, therefore, to know whether any reduction of the militia was intended immediately to take place?
The Chanc. of the Exchequer
took this opportunity of stating, that it was in the contemplation of his maj.'s govt. to bring forward, without delay, a plan for more speedily transferring to the regular army a
254
Mr. Johnstone
observed, that whether the proportion of the militia alluded to. should remain attached to that body, or be transferred to the regular army, an additional allowance it seemed would be necessary.
The Chanc. of the Exchequer
said, that in the vote for the regular army, the regiments were placed so high, that even should the proposed transfer of the militia immediately take place, their establishments would still be incomplete; therefore there would be no necessity for any additional allowance such as the hon. gent. referred to.—The motion was agreed to.—Upon the proposition for allowance to innkeepers being submitted,
Mr. Fuller
took occasion to remark on the extraordinary expence to which the county he had the honour to represent, and the other counties on the coast, were subject, by the conveyance of troops, their baggage, &c. It had been observed, that no less than 80,000 men had been for some time back stationed on the coast. The expence of carriage, &c. in forwarding those troops, was paid by govt. but back carriage fell upon the counties. This had produced so severe a grievance, that the hon. member stated it to be the subject of general complaint. This was an evil which he trusted some means would be taken to remedy. He hoped that, in bringing forward the army extraordinaries, the right hon. the secretary at war would propose something as a reimbursement to those counties for what they had already spent, and as an indemnity for the future. The house would, he had no doubt, acknowledge the justice of such a proposition. The conveyance of troops for the national defence was a national concern, and no undue proportion of the expence attending such conveyance should be' suffered to fall upon particular counties.
255
The Secretary at War
said, that if the ion. member would confer with him in private upon the subject he alluded to, he should be happy to pay him every attention in his power, and if the proposition he recommended should be found advisable, to promote its adoption. If, how-ever, the conversation should produce in his mind a contrary impression, it would still be open to the hon. member to bring forward a motion on the subject himself.— Upon the vote for the barracks being proposed,
Mr. Kinnaird,
adverting to the temporary barracks erected on the coast, stated, that he understood them to be very unfit for the residence of the troops. He therefore wished to know whether it was meant to continue the use of those barracks, and whether, among the provision far bar-jacks, those were included? If so, he should certainly object to them; and if no specific account of the expence of those barracks was before the house, he should move for it.
The Secretary at War
said, that the barracks alluded to were constructed for the accommodation of the troops, because, from circumstances, no better could be provided. It was advisable that the troops should remain on the coast during winter, and from June till Nov. there was not time sufficient for the building any other than those temporary barracks.
Mr. Kinnaird
expressed his sorrow for the expence incurred hi the construction of such barracks; but that expence was by no means so much the object of his consideration, as the danger likely to result to the soldiery from a residence in such places. If those barracks were not to continue any longer in use, he would not so much complain; but if the contrary was intended, he should certainly object to it.
[ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.]
Mr. Wellesley Pole
then rose to submit to the committee the estimates for the ordnance service of the year. The aggregate of the estimates for the present year exceeded the amount for the last year by 798,000
l.
256
l.
l.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 5, 1805.
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]
Earl Spencer
said, that in the absence of his noble friend, (lord Grenville) it fell to his lot to put the motions of which the noble lord had given notice, and the tendency and nature of which he had yesterday explained. The first of these was for the production of the result forwarded to govt. by Mr. Frere, of the information which he intimates in his letter of the 5th of March, 1804, it was his intention to take the first opportunity of requiring from M. Cevallos, relative to the treaty between France and Spain, on finding that the prince of peace did not chose to give him any information on that subject, but referred him to M. Cevallos.—After some explanation between lords Mulgrave and Darnley,
Lord Mulgrave
said, that after every inquiry which it was in his power to make, and after perusing all the papers on the subject, which were to be found at the foreign office, he could only say, that the existence of any such communication as that alluded to, was altogether unknown to him; nor was he aware that govt. had ever been in possession of the result of such communication, farther than was to be collected from an allusion to the subject in No. 14. of the second volume of papers before the house, (see p. 183.)—On this assurance the motion was allowed to drop.—The second motion was for production of two notes from M. Cevallos to Mr. Frere, of the 23d and 24th Feb. referred
257
Lord Mulgrave
said, that no such notes existed, if they could not, as he believed they did, be supposed to apply two notes of date 23d and 24th Jan. the former of which was among the papers on the table, and the latter had not been produced merely because it entirely regarded another subject, the island of Teneriffe, not now in question.—This explanation being esteemed satisfactory, this motion was also withdrawn.—Several other motions followed, for production of answers by lord Hawkesbury, to the letters from M. d'Auduaga, of the 9th and 30th March, 1st May, 23d Dec. 1804; to all of which it being answered, that no such papers existed, or in the nature of the communication were to be expected, the motions were withdrawn.—The next motion was for the production of an account or minute of the communications and explanations made by M. d'Auduaga to lord Harrowby, as to the preparations making at Ferrol, which the former of those gentlemen represents in his letter, as being such as either were, or ought to have beet), satisfactory on that head.—This motion was agreed to.—The last motion was, for the production of the instructions sent by this govt. to Mr. Frere, at Madrid, authorizing his declaration to the Spanish govt. that if the condemnation of Brit, prizes in the ports of Spain was not put a stop to, he should consider the refusal as a termination to his mission at Madrid,
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that, from being himself in the foreign office at the time, he thought he was warranted in stating, that no instructions of that kind had ever been sent to Mr. Frere, farther than the general instructions contained in the papers on the table of the house. How far Mr. Frere might have thought that they warranted the declaration alluded to, he could not take upon him to say.
Earl Spencer
begged it to be understood, that the declarations made by ministers this night, as to their belief of the non-existence of the papers called for, which had been denied to exist, and the motions for production of which had been withdrawn, should be afterwards taken as evidence, that those papers did not exist.
Earl Carlisle
said, from what he could understand, it must be held that Mr. Frere had added another to the instructions transmitted to him by govt. which should
258
Lord Hawkesbury
said, he had not given, nor meant to give any such opinion, he had only conjectured that such might have been the conclusions drawn by Mr. Frere, from the instructions he had received, and from the tenor of the treaty between the two countries, by which it was declared that Brit. ships should enjoy all the privileges of the most favoured nation. How, far Mr. Frere, if he had judged in this manner, had argued logically, he was not at present called on, or entitled to judge.
Lord King
could not conceive that the words of the instructions, which he read, would warrant any man in drawing from them the result deduced by Mr. Frere.
Earl Darnley
said, that on looking back to the answer or explanation given to the first motion, he could not conceive that it applied. The letter in which Mr. Frere stated his intention of applying for farther explanation, is dated the 5th March, and the letter in which it was now alleged, that the result of that information might have been communicated, is dated the 3d March, being two days preceding.
Lord Hawkesbury
explained, by saying, that all he meant was, that ministers had no later communication on the subject.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 5, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Lord Proby, and T. Foley, esq. took the oaths and their seats.—The exchequer bills bill was read a 2d time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.—The assessed taxes commissioners' bill was committed, and the report received.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee of supply, of yesterday, which, after a trifling explanation, was agreed to, and bills were ordered to be brought in upon it.
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.]
Mr. Elliot
rose to call the attention of the house to a particular circumstance in the papers laid upon the table in consequence of a motion of a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Windham.) The numbers said to be recruited in a certain period were stated to he 503. But 396 boys were also mentioned. He wished to know, from the sec.
259
The Secretary at War
said they were included in the 503.
Mr. Elliot
wished that the letter of service for the recruiting should be produced.
The Secretary at War
said, that the letter of service was very long. He held an abstract of it in his hand, which, though not come from the war office, and, therefore, not strictly official, he intended to lay before the 'house. But if the hon. gent. wished for the whole of the letter of service, he should endeavour to get it ready as soon as possible.
Mr. Windham
thought that the spirit of his hon. friend's inquiry rendered it proper that the official and regular letter should be produced.—Agreed to.
[IRISH LOANS IN ENGLAND.]
Lord Archibald Hamilton,
pursuant to his notice on a former day, rose, for the purpose of submitting to the house certain motions on the subject of the financial situation of Ireland. As he understood from a communication with the right hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Foster), that no objection would be made to the production of the papers for which he proposed to move, it would not be necessary for him to trespass long on the attention of the house. He should, therefore, barely state to the house the nature of the motions which it was his intention to propose; first, with respect to the amount of all sums that had been drawn from this country, by way of loans, for the service of Ireland; and next for an account of all orders from the lords of the treasury in Ireland on that subject. But, as in all probability, he should feel himself hereafter bound to call the attention of the house to that subject, he trusted he should meet with their indulgence in stating briefly his own view of it. The house would recollect, that, in consideration of the extraordinary state of the exchange with Ireland, a committee had been appointed during last session, to inquire into and report upon the causes that had produced it. The committee had occupied much time in the consideration of the subject, and the only result that had followed was the measure of drawing on England for the amount of the sums borrowed here at par. This he was so far from considering as a step towards the improvement of the state of exchange, or a removal of the grievance complained of, that be considered it only
260
Mr. Foster
observed, that the noble lord had done him the honour to communicate to him the substance of the motions which he had just read to the house, to which he could not have any possible objection. But as the noble lord, from the observations he had made, seemed to suppose the lords of the treasury of Ireland to have been actuated by far different motives from those which they felt, he hoped for the permission of the house, to state the motives upon which they had acted. A sum of twelve hundred thousand pounds, or of one million and a half, had remained in England for the service of Ireland, which it was necessary to have transmitted to Ireland. The lords of the treasury applied in the first instance to the bank of Ireland, for this purpose, considering them, as the most proper body to bring the money over. The bank however, refused to interfere, from an apprehension, that as many of the directors were engaged in the business of exchange, any act which would have the effect of constituting them arbitrators of exchange, might draw down upon their court of directors, odium and reprobation. Under such circumstances, the lords of the treasury found themselves under a necessity of resorting to the means of drawing the money, and they adopted the expedient of bringing it over in bank of England notes, or bank post bills. They fixed the amount of the money to be drawn for, and gave ten days or a fortnight's no-
261
l.
l.
l.
l.
[REPAIRS OF THE ROMNEY, &c]
Mr. Kinnaird,
pursuant to his notice on a former day, rose to move for the production of certain papers, calculated to enable the house to judge of a charge made in a report of the navy board, on the subject of certain very large charges for the repairs of the ships Romney and La Sensible, while under the command of sir Home Popham, in the Red Sea. On a subject of such importance, he thought it incumbent on him, both consistently with his duty to the house, and in fairness to the hon. and gallant officer whose conduct was implicated, to state a few of the circumstances which induced him to institute an inquiry into the grounds of this charge. He hoped the house would do him the justice to believe that he had not taken up the subject on light grounds, or from hasty conclusions. It was not the rumours on this business, which had long met the public ear; it was not till he had, for several months, seen a publication containing the most serious charges against the hon. officer, and observed, that this publication remained unanswered, that he had felt himself called upon no longer to postpone the consideration of a subject, in which, not only the
262
l.
263
l.
264
l.
l.
265
266
Sir Home Popham
rose, and assured the house, that no man in existence was more anxious than himself to have every pant of his conduct fully canvassed; no exertion had been omitted on his part to have a fair opportunity of vindicating himself from the charges which were so industriously circulated against him in an anonymous and scurrilous pamphlet, from which the hon. gent. who introduced the business, appeared to have drawn all his information. The hon. member had expressed his surprise, that no answer had been given to that pamphlet. He begged leave to assure the hon. gent. and the house, that this had arisen from no backwardness on his part, to meet the scandalous falsehoods which that pamphlet contained. The fact, however, was, that a certain degree of caution and alarm in the press had retarded the publication of his answer; which now, however, was before the public. From this answer, he begged leave to read a few extracts of letters which had passed between him and the board of admiralty, from which it would be clear beyond all possibility of doubt, that he had on every occasion evinced the most ardent desire, not only to throw no obstacles in the way of the investigation of the charges; but had, on the contrary, pressed upon the board of admiralty, every consideration which seemed to him in the least calculated to accelerate the discussion. In support of this observation, the hon. offi-
267
268
269
Admiral Markham
stated, that the board of admiralty had directed the navy board to furnish the hon. officer with a copy of their report, and that he believed it was furnished. It was natural to suppose that when such heavy accusations were brought forward against the hon. officer, he would have entered into some justification of his conduct. The hon. officer had hinted that he ought to have been called before the navy board for that purpose. Such was not the regular mode of procedure. The accounts of all naval officers are sent to the navy board, there examined, and, if found to be incorrect, the pay of such officers is stopped, but they are not themselves summoned to give an explanation of their conduct. The hon. officer had expressed his surprise, that after his return to England, and during the period in which the late admiralty board continued in office, this report had been suffered to lie dormant, and no proceedings whatever instituted upon it. He would inform the house of the reason. In the first instance, the admiralty conceived the idea of instituting a criminal prosecution; they then
270
Mr. Dickenson,
jun. said, he was not prepared to answer the last speaker's question, with regard to the receipt of any additional reports relative to the hon. officer's conduct. It appeared to him that the navy board had acted against all precedent and decorum in the case of sir Home Pop-ham. As far as he could call to his recoil lection the last passage of their report, its tendency was, that they had declined hearing sir Home Popham's defence, and had proceeded on
ex parte
ex parte
271
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
said, it was far from being his intention to enter much into this subject, and he had expected that the hon. gent. would have abstained from general observation, which tended only to aggravate, whilst the officer, the object of the discussion, had professed his extreme desire to enter into the investigation of his conduct; and for a full disclosure of facts, by the production of every information. He concurred with what an hon. friend of his, a member of the present admiralty board, had said, relating to the last sentence of the report of the navy board; and must think the case was decided by that board on
ex parte
Mr. Fox
said, he did not mean to go into any discussion on the present occasion. He could not, however, admit that the light hon. gent. who had just sat down was entitled to blame the hon. gent. for the manner in which he had introduced the subject. The hon. member had introduced no observations but such as were strictly connected with the object he had in view. His object was to persuade the house of the propriety of having the papers produced; and was it not for that purpose necessary to employ some arguments? When papers were called for, was it not always previously required that a case should be made out to the house? But the right. hon. gent. had argued that there was no necessity for argument, because the hon. officer did not, oppose the production of the papers. He felt himself called upon to protest against such doccrine. It was not parliamentary, and he trusted it would never be admitted by the house. It was not fit that the house should hear of the production of papers merely because it happened to suit the inclination of the parties. He was not displeased that the hon. officer had shewn himself willing to go into the enquiry; yet, perhaps, if he had not talked so much of his own innocence, and of the guilt of the late board, it would not have been the
272
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
allowed the truth of part of the hon. gent.'s observations, but added, that when it was understood, as it certainly had been, that no opposition to the motion was intended, it certainly became less necessary to enter into particulars, much less into an aggravated statement of them.
Mr. Kinnaird,
confirmed as he was in his own opinion by that of his hon. friend, did not deem it necessary to make any apology to the house for what he had said, He had merely stated what was contained in the report of the navy board; if it were proved false, no man would more willingly retract. With regard to the statement, that the navy board had adopted an unusual mode of proceeding in this affair, it was untrue. The same had taken place when that board had investigated the conduct of sir R. King, sir A. Mitchell, sir R. Bicker-ton, and capt. Cook, of the ship La Forte, It would afford him the sincerest satisfaction, could the hon. officer clear himself in the eyes of his country from the imputation which attached to him, and in that case he should be one of the first to avow his misapprehension.
Sir Home Popham
was surprised, as the hon. gent, was not pushed for precedents, that he should allude to an officer who had lost his life in the service of his country.
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
was persuaded, that with the sentiments which he was sure the hon. gent, possessed, it must have been through inadvertence that he had selected, as one of his precedents, the officer alluded to. It was due to the memory of that officer to have spared the feelings of those who admired him, and of a country grateful for his valour and services. Had he lived, he would have proved an invaluable ornament to that profession in which, few has had been his days, he had shone.
Mr. Kinnaird
said, that he would not be schooled by any man in that house into sentiments of delicacy. He had alluded.
273
Sir Home Popham
then rose, and stated, that wishing nothing to he withheld, he felt it is duty to move to have laid before the house, all his correspondence with the board of admiralty and the navy board. He accordingly referred to the greater part of their letters, in all of which he expressed the strongest desire for the fullest investigation of his conduct. He complained severely of the reluctance of the navy board to give him up the papers necessary for completing his defence, even after he had received assurances from the secretary of the admiralty that orders for that purpose had been specially delivered. He had been informed in April that the papers were nearly ready for delivery. He had made repeated applications, till Aug. when he was given to understand that the papers were lost. Thus, after waiting 4 or 5 months, he had been scandalously tantalized and disappointed. He inveighed with great severity on such unfair and illiberal treatment of the report. As an instance of the jealousy, or worse, of the late admiralty, the hon. officer next stated to the house, that when at Sheerness, for the purpose of refitting, every delay had been interposed, and the most vexatious obstacles thrown in his way, until at length the object was in danger of never being accomplished, —There was another subject on which he felt peculiar pain. It was not enough to have traduced him in a pamphlet, in which hot one fact appeared that was not scandalously perverted, but that pamphlet must be circulated with an industry unparalleled, and even sent to the officers under his command: for when on a late service on the enemy's coast, he found that that pamphlet had been sent by post to the officers under his command. On a proceeding like this, which obviously tended to remove all confidence in a commander, he need make no observations. Was it patriotism? Was it public virtue? Ridicule, too, was at the same time attempted to be thrown upon him, because he had been, as his enemies had pleased to term it, a leader of catamarans, a mode of attack, which in common with other officers, he had suggested to the present naval administration. He begged leave to remark on the way in which the notice for the motion now before the house had been given. He was in command of a
274
Mr. Fox
declared, that had it not been for what had fallen from the hon. officer, he should not have said a single word more upon the subject. That hon. officer had said that the board adopted a particular mode of proceeding, because they thought that it would be agreeable to the admiralty. On the 9th of April, he said, he had been promised to be furnished with the papers he required. That board was only three weeks longer in existence; it was therefore impossible that he could have been supplied by them with a copy of the papers in Aug. the time to which he had alluded. As to the idea of officers being ready to meet enquiry, or, in fact, being anxious for it, it had been seen, in that house, that when such persons, or the nearest relatives of them had supported, or voted for the inquiry, there were other persons, (members of his maj.'s govt.) who openly resisted the investigation, and the necessary papers were not produced. A right hon. gent. who professed himself at that time, to be as anxious as any other member of that house to promote the inquiry, had since come into office; and from the superiority of information which his situation afforded, he should have expected that the right hon. gent. would have brought the subject again. before parliament. He, however, had not thought fit so to do. It was therefore not to be wondered at that a new board of admiralty did not wish to follow up the measures of their predecessors in a similar instance.
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
observed, that he thought every hon. gent. would at once perceive that a person might very well disapprove of the conduct of a preceding administration, and yet not enter into a respect of the conduct of those who had composed it. He disapproved of the conduct of the late board of admiralty, yet did not think himself called upon to take a retrospect of the measures of the noble earl who presided, or those of the gent. who assisted a at that board. Though thinking on these
275
Mr. Fox.
I should have thought, sir, that the right hon. gent. would have displayed a greater accuracy than he has done. What happens in youth makes a permanent impression. At the period to which the right hon. gent. has alluded, he was very young. Young memories, however, are retentive of circumstances that eminently affect them. I am sure that the right hon. gent, himself must know, that there was nothing in the transaction to which he has transiently alluded, that could give me pain on a retrospect of my conduct: but I do apprehend that the case is somewhat otherwise as to the right hon. gent. Several members on both sides this house know that transaction, and will decide on the merits of that view of it which I have unfolded.
The Chanc. of the Excheq,
Let that be judged of by the world, which knows the transaction.
Sir Charles Pole,
in reference to the papers spoken of early in the debate by sir Home Popham, said, that the papers containing the charges against sir Home were sent to the board of naval enquiry, where he believed they still were.
Sir A. Hammond
said, that the papers Were sent to the admiralty, and had never found their way back to the navy office.— The motions were agreed to.
[MIDDLESEX ELECTION.]
Lord Marsham
rose to move the order of the day, for he ring at the bar the charge against R. A. Cox, esq and sir W. Rawlins, knt. the gent, who were, in 1802, the sheriffs of London and Middlesex. The noble lord said, he felt some slight embarrassment what course
276
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
avowed his intention to oppose the hearing of evidence at the bar. He would either move, that the order be discharged, or oppose it, when moved, in due form.
The Speaker
said, there were two roads open in this matter to the house; either the motion for hearing counsel at the bar might be made, and an order voted, or having heard the motion made, the right hon. gent, could move, that the order be discharged.
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
observed, that the noble lord was undoubtedly in possession of the house, but that if such a motion were made, he should feel it necessary to negative it.
Lord Marsham
would have no objection to any mode which the house should think proper to adopt. There was, however, some delicacy in the case, since the parties wished to be heard at the bar.
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
now rose to move for the discharge of the order. There was nothing, he said, to induce trite house to wish to hear evidence at its bar. The question had already undergone the fullest discussion. The house had the judgment of a select committee, the attention and the powers of which were peculiarly directed to this subject. Such was the case previous to the act called the Grenville Act. How did it stand now? The house had the advantages of the resolutions resulting on the enquiries of those who were sworn to fulfil the solemn duty to which they were appointed. What was now to be required? The persons, to be examined were either to-repeat their former testimony, or they were not. If they correctly stated their evidence as before given, there would be no advantage derived from the re-examination proposed; if they varied in their depositions, was the, house to give the preference to their former declarations on oath, or to their subsequent affirmations? Certainly it must be admitted, that the testimony which had received the authority and sanction of an appeal of that nature, ought to be preferred. On these grounds he should move, that. The order be discharged.
277
Mr. Fox
said, he felt it impossible to concur in the. grounds stated for the proposition of the right hon. gent, and equally impossible to accede to the
res integra
278
279
280
281
The Attorney General
said, he saw no force in the arguments used by the hon. gen. in opposition to the motion of his right hon. friend, and still less in the observation which the hon. gent, applied to the reversal of the order and course of proceeding at the present moment. It could not be complained that the parties were taken unaware, as when the business had been postponed on a former day, his right hon. friend distinctly stated, that the ground of that postponement was to afford gentlemen an opportunity of considering the' expediency of a deviation from the precedent of the Shoreham case, of the nature of that which was now proposed. That the course proposed by his right hon. friend was strictly according to the uniform practice which prevailed previous to the Grenville act, was not attempted to be denied; and the question for the house to consider in the present instance, and also for future cases, was this, whether it would be more agreeable to justice and expediency to follow the former course, or that which bad obtained since the enactment of the Grenville law? For the former he certainly was an advocate, and his
282
uox populi,
vox dei,
283
ad infinitum.
ex parte
284
Mr. Fox
said, he would trespass on the house but for a few words, not that he thought it necessary to vindicate himself from such gross ignorance as he should be ashamed of. The learned gent. had charged him with saying, that it was contrary to all analogy to pronounce sentence without hearing evidence. He said no such thing. He said it was contrary to analogy to pronounce the guilt of a party without hearing evidence. He believed, the hon. gent, would allow there was a material difference in the expresssion, and he was certain the learned judges would perfectly agree with him in the distinction he had taken.
Mr. Sheridan
said, he agreed entirely with his hon. friend, whose arguments had been so strong that he did not think it at all necessary to reply to the observations that had been made by the learned gent, on the other side. There was a principle, however, laid down by the learned gent, that if the returning officer should not happen to be present at the committee who might report against his conduct, there would then be ground for hearing such evidence at the bar as such officer might feel it necessary to bring forward for his exculpation. If so, then the course proposed by the learned gent.'s right hon. friend was inadmissible. For it always would be necessary to establish a preliminary inquiry, according to the learned gent.'s principle, to ascertain whether the returning officer was present at the committee before the house proceeded to pronounce judgment upon him; and in point of strict justice, this inquiry should also go to this point, whether the returning officer was present throughout, or whether his defence was not perfected before the committee had made their report. In the case before the house, he could say that the defence of the accused was not perfected, because the counsel for the accused did not conceive it necessary to sum up, and remark upon the evidence. Such was that learned gent.'s reliance on the
285
Lord Marsham
observed, that the counsel for the accused not having summed up and remarked on the evidence before the committee, was no fault of the committee. The noble lord thought the parties ought to be allowed to supply that omission by hearing their counsel at the bar.—In some farther conversation between Mr. Fox, Mr. Pitt, and the Attorney General, it was understood to be the intention of Mr. Pitt to oppose the hearing of counsel upon the question as to the guilt or innocence of the accused; but that right hon. gent, observed, that upon the question as to the measure of punishment, it was competent to any member to propose the calling in of counsel.
Mr. J. Hawkins Browne
supported the motion. In animadverting on what had fallen from an hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Sheridan) he said, that if the sheriffs had not been fully heard in the committee it was owing to their counsel, for he understood that it had been a matter agreed between the counsel of both sides, that if the one forbore to criminate the sheriffs, the other would be less urgent in their defence. To this cause he therefore attributed the counsels not summing up the evidence in favour of the sheriffs, which the hon. gent. had alluded to.
Mr. J. Fitzgerald
stated, that the parliament of Ireland had adopted also the Grenville act. But they had also gone farther and adopted it with an amendment. There, appeared here to be no particular law in regard to the returning officer, but the parliament of Ireland had provided by express act for cases of the kind now before the house* When the conduct of the
286
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
begged leave to put the hon. gent, right in regard to the duty of the committee. The gentleman had said chat the committee was not bound to judge of the returning officer, that question not being before it in virtue of the Grenville act; but had the hon. gent. had recourse to the votes of the house, he would have found that the petition of Mr. Mainwaring complained of the conduct of the sheriffs expressly, and that this petition, with the complaint, was referred to the committee. The conduct of the sheriffs, therefore, became the direct subject of the committee's investigation.— The question being then called for, the gallery was cleared, no division, however, took place. Mr. Pitt's motion was acceded to, and the order discharged accordingly. The first resolution of the committee was then agreed to, and the debate postponed till this day vwek,—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 6, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The pension duty and malt duty bills were read a 3d time and passed. —Mr. Hayes, from the bank, presented an account of the sums expended in the 12 months from the 5th of Jan. 1804, to the 5th Jan. 1805, for the reduction of the national debt; and an account also of the
287
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 6, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The bill respecting the commissioners of assessed taxes was read a 3d time, and passed.—The 3 millions exchequer, bills bill was read a 2d time, and committed.—The secretary at war presented a copy of the letter of service given to col. French to raise recruits in Ireland.— Mr. Windham moved for an account of the number and rank of officers and non-commissioned officers employed by the inspector general of recruits, together with the expence of the same. Ordered.—Mr. Fuller moved for an account of the quantity of hops grown in the county of Sussex, from the year 1789 to the year 1804; and of the amount of the taxes paid on the same, distinguishing the quarters. Ordered, —Mr. Pole, in order that the fullest account might be laid before the house that it was possible to give, of the state of the ordnance, moved, that an account should be presented of the number of effective recruits raised from the 1st of Jan. 1804, to the 1st of Jan. 1805, for the different departments of the artillery service. Ordered.
[PENSIONS DUTIES' BILL.]
A message from the lords announced their lordships concurrence to the malt and pension duty bills, with an amendment to the latter. The house forthwith resolved itself into a committee to take the said amendment into consideration.
The Speaker
said, it was his duty to explain to the house the nature of the amendment made by the lords, which was merely the insertion of the word "tax" after the word "land," in one of the paragraphs. It had always, he said, been the usage of that house to regard with extreme vigilance any amendments made by the house of lords in any act in the nature of a money bill, and to reject, with the most scrupulous rigour, any amendment which tended to trench upon the exclusive privilege of that house, even in the slighest degree, by altering any part of the substance of
288
Sir W. Young
thought even the present instance of too much importance to be allowed to pass. Had the insertion been of almost any other word than tax, the amendment might have passed as unobjectionable.
The Speaker
said, it was his duty to explain to the hon. baronet that it had not been the usage of the house to reject amendments, not altering the substance of a money bill, but merely correcting a clerical error, which the present amendment only went to do, and that in a paragraph reciting a former act of parliament. Even in his own short experience, many instances had occurred wherein similar amendments had passed without objection. In the case, for instance, of annum per centum, when the word per became a necessary amendment. The present bill coo stood, as now amended, in the original copy, and the error was merely an omission by the ingrossing clerk. —The amendment was agreed to, and a message sent to the lords to acquaint their lordships thereof.
[LOYALTY LOAN.]
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
rose, in consequence of the notice be had given on a former day, to bring forward his intended proposition with respect to the the loyalty loan. The regular course of the house, he was aware, would be to bring this subject forward in a committee of ways and means; but from the nature of his proposition on this occasion, he thought it would be better to bring it forward in a committee of the whole house, which he now gave notice he should do to-morrow. While he was on his legs, however, it would be as well to give the house some intimation as to the present state of that business. He had, therefore, to inform them, that out of the 22 millions outstanding of that loan, oh the close of the last session of parliament, the holders of 13 millions had subscribed1 to the terms then proposed; and of the remaining sum, the holders of 4½ millions
289
WAR WITH SPAIN.]
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
laid on the table some farther papers respecting the negotiation with Spain, copies of which he stated were ready to be distributed to the members.
Earl Temple
expressed a hope that as this formed the fourth volume of papers on this subject, and as they were so voluminous as to require much time for examination and comparison, the right hon. gent. would have no objection to postpone the discussion until Monday next. If the right hon. gent, consented to this necessary delay, the noble lord mentioned that his right hon. friend, (Mr. Windham,) whose motion stood for that day, was willing to give way, and postpone his motion to some future day.
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
said, that although it would afford him more satisfaction to have this important matter discussed on Friday, yet with the view stated by the noble lord, be should agree to postpone it till Monday next, fully persuaded that the more the papers on the table were examined, the more the proceedings of his maj.'s govt. were likely to meet the unanimous approbation of that house and the country. He wished, however, to be understood, that as it was highly desirable to have the sense of the house expressed as soon as possible upon this subject, the postponement to Monday would be final. —The following are correct copies of the additional papers relative to the war with Spain, presented by the right hon. gent. viz.
THIRD ADDITIONAL PAPERS RELATIVE TO THE DISCUSSION WITH SPAIN' IN 1803 AND 1804, PRESENTED BY HIS MAJESTY'S COMMAND TO ROTH HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT, 6th FEBRUARY, 1805.
No. 1—
Copy of a Dispatch from Lord Hawskesbury to J. H. Frere, Esq. dated Downing-street,
290
291
No. 2.—
Copy of a Dispatch from Lord Hawkesbury, to J. H. Frere, Esq. dated Downing-Street,
No. 3.—
Translation of a Memorandum without Signature or Date, from the Chev. D'Anduaga; received 29th Aug.
Family Compact.
Treaty of 1796.
According to the family compact, the 2 powers will consider as their enemy every power who shall become enemy to other promises, engages, 1 of the 2 crowns. Art. 1.
According to the treaty of 1796, if 1 of the 2 powers finds itself threatened or attacked, the other promises, engages, at obliges itself to be
292
—The inviolable and inutual guarantee shall be supported by all their forces; and their majesties, according to the principle which is the basis of this treaty, agree that whoever attacks the one crown attacks the other. Art. 2. Here follow the articles relative to the first succours.
aiding with its good offices, at to assist it when so required, according to the stipulation of the following articles. Art 2. (Here follow the articles relative to the succours.
The first succours are to be considered as an obligation inseparable from the ties of relation ship and intimate union, and these succours shall be the least that the power required can do for the power who may stand in need of assistance; but as the intention of the 2 kings is, that a war once begun by or against 1 of the 2 crowns, shall become proper and per to the other; it is agreed, that as soon as the 2 kings shall be in a state of war with the same enemy or enemies, the obligation of the said succours shall cease, and and should only act as in lieu thereof the 2 crowns shall be bound to make war conjointly in employing therein the whole of their force. Art. 16.
If the said succours are or should become insufficient, the 2 powers shall put in action the greatest force in their power, as well by sea as by land, against the enemy of the power attacked, which power shall employ the said forces either conjointly or separately, according to a plan that shall be concerted between them. Art. II.
The succours stipulated by the preceding article shall be furnished in any war which the contracting powers may have to carry on, even should the party required not be directly interested therein, at should only act as auxiliary, Art. 12.
In case the motives for hostilities should be so prejudicial to both parties as to induce them to declare war by common consent against one or more powers, the limitations established in the preceding articles shall cease to have effect, and the 2 contracting powers shall be bound to employ against the common enemy the whole of their forces by sea and land, and to concert plans to direct such forces either collectively or separately, towards such points as may be deemed most adviseable. They also bind themselves in the case pointed out in this art. not to treat for peace, but by common consent, and in such a manner as that each party may obtain that satisfaction, to which they are entitled. Art 13.—In case one of the powers should act only as auxiliary, that power which alone shall be attacked may treat for peace separately, but so as to prevent any prejudice resulting there from to the auxiliary power, and moreover so as it may tend as much as possible to its direct advantage; for which purpose notice shall be given to the auxiliary power, of the mode and time agreed upon for the opening of the negociations. Art. 14.—REMARKS.—Bysimplycomparing the
293
ipso facto
No. 4.—
Translation of a Memorandum, without Signature or Date, from the Chev. d'Anduaga; received
st Sept,
294
295
No. 5.—
Translation of Memorandum from the. Chev. d'Anduaga, without Signature or Date, received
st Sept.
296
297
No. —
Extract of a Dispatch from Ld. Harrowby to J.H. Frere, Esq. dated Downing-Street, 11th July
298
No. 7.—
Translation of a Letter from, the Chev. d'Anduaga to Lord Harrowby, dated Portland Place,
th Nov.
299
300
The Chev. D'ANDUAGA.
No. 8.—
Translation of a Letter from the Chev. d'Anduaga, to Lord Harrowby, dated Portland Place,
301
302
303
No. 9.—
Copy of a Letter from W. Marsden, Esq. to G. Hammond, Esq, dated Admiralty Office,
th Nov.
No. 10——
Extract of a Letter from W. Marsden, Esq. to G. Hammond, Esq. dated Admiralty Office,
th Nov.
(
Inclosure in No.
Medusa, at the Motherbank,
304
305
Maj.'s Ship Donegal,
No. 11.—
Extract of a Dispatch from Ld. Hawkesbury, to J. H. Frere. Esq. dated Downing Street,
th May,
306
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 7, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The house in a committee of privileges heard evidence relative to the claim of lady H. Fitzgerald, to the barony of Rous.—The earl of Chichester took the oaths and his seat.—The royal assent was given, by commission, to the malt duty bill, the pension duty bill, the insolvent debtors' amendment bill, and a naturalization bill.—Mr. Robinson, from the London dock company, presented an account of the disbursements of the company from the 1st June, 1803, to the 30th Nov. 1804, with an account of the progress made.—Earl Spencer moved that, on account of lord Grenville's indisposition, the consideration of the Spanish papers should be postponed from to-morrow to some future day.—Ld. Mulgrave had no objection, as the noble lord had shewn so much interest in the subject, and as from the situation he had formerly held in the country, his opinion must be entitled to some weight, that the business should be delayed to some early day, when it might be in his power to attend. After some conversation on this point his 1dp. moved, that the order, do stand for Monday next, which was agreed to.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 7, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Quarme, deputy us he
307
[LOYALTY LOAN.]
Mr. Huskisson
moved the order of the day, for a committee of the whole house on the loyalty loan act. The house having resolved into the committee, the hon. gent, informed the committee, that as his right hon. friend, (the Chanc. of the Excheq.) had yesterday stated to the house the plan he proposed to follow with respect to this object, it would be unnecessary for him to take up the time of the committee. He should therefore content himself barely with moving the resolutions. The 1st resolution provided, that such of those holders of loyalty loan as had given, notice on or previous to Oct. 10, 1804, that they wished to be paid off
308
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
s.
l.
s.
l.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 8, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Lords Landaff and Hereford were sworn and took their seats.—Counsel were heard at great length relative to the appeal cause; Glover
v.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 8, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Higham from the office of the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, presented the annual account of these commissioners for the last year.— Sir W. Young moved, "that there be laid before the house an account of the quantity of raw sugar imported, and the refined sugar exported, and the amount of duties paid thereon in the year ending 5th Jan. 1805; also an account of the quantity of rum imported and exported in the same period, with the amount of the duties thereon; an account of the amount of British manufactures exported to the West Indian colonies; and an account of the number of ships, and their tonnage, employed in this trade, distinguishing the ports." Ordered.—The mutiny bill was read a second, time.—The sec. at war gave
309
[ARREST OF JUDGE JOHNSON.]
Mr. James Fitzgerald,
in consequence of the determination of the Court of King's Bench in Ireland, on the construction of the act passed in the last session, for the more easy trial of offenders escaping from one part of the United Kingdom to another, in which determination the construction had been established by the opinion of two judges against that of one; in consequence also of the great agitation that had arisen in Ireland, on this determination, and assured of the concurrence of the gentlemen of the Irish bar, who, if they did not concur with him, would have abandoned all that independence of judgment, and all those sound principles of law and reason of which they had ever been so honourably tenacious, felt it his duty to call the attention of the house to the provisions of the act in question, which so flagrantly called for amendment in the point he alluded to. He should have felt it his duty to give notice of a particular motion on this head, if he did not think the amendment would come better from the quarter in which the act had originated. He trusted the hon. and learned author of the act would offer such amendment as would be best calcu-
310
The Attorney General
had no difficulty in allowing that the act required amendment in some points. At the same time he doubted, whether the amendments he thought it required were the same that were wished for by the learned gent. for he knew of no amendments that were rendered necessary by the proceedings in that court, nor did he think it right, in the present state of those proceedings, to prejudice the discussion of the case now before the courts, by a parliamentary declaration of the sense of the house upon the construction of the act.
Mr. Fitzgerald
said, that according to his view of the justice of the case, the person taken up should be at liberty to give bail where the arrest took place, for his appearance where the offence was committed. It could never have been the intention of the framer of the act, that a person arrested in Ireland, for a bailable offence committed in England, should be brought to the place where the offence was committed without being allowed to give bail; or, that a person arrested in England for an offence committed in Ireland, should be conveyed to that country without availing himself of the legal mode of liberation till the time of trial.
The Attorney General,
in explanation, agreed perfectly, that the evil complained of by the learned gent. had never been in his contemplation. The provisions of the act of last session had been copied from the act of 13th Geo. III. between England and Scotland, in which the defect had not been noticed until the occurrence now alluded to bad discovered it in both.
Mr. Fitzgerald
then proposed to move for an account of all persons imprisoned in Ireland for treasonable charges, together with the causes of their arrests, their means of subsistence while in prison, and how and when such of them as had been liberated were discharged. In answer to Sir E. Nepean, who expressed a difficulty of stating particularly the grounds of commitment, lest it should lead to a discovery of the channels through which govt. had its information, Mr. Fitzgerald said, he wished merely to know generally the ground stated in the commitment, for the purpose of ascertaining how the govt. of Ireland had executed the act, the re-
311
[IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.]
Sir Evan Nepean,
in consequence of a notice given yesterday, rose to move for leave to bring in a bill for the further continuance of the act of last session for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland. The right hon. bart. said, that the continuance of the bill was rendered necessary by the existence of disaffection, in a considerable degree, in Ireland; by the avowed determination of the enemy to invade that country, and the preparations notoriously made for that invasion; by the fact of the collection and association of a number of Irishmen with the forces designed for that purpose, and the actual sitting of a committee of United Irishmen at Paris, corresponding with the United Irishmen of Ireland, and stimulating them to continue in acts of treason. In order to defeat their machinations, and counteract such treasonable plots, it became indispensably necessary to arm the Irish govt. by the further continuance of an authority which had already proved so salutary and efficacious in preserving the tranquillity of that country; more especially, too, as the present law would expire within the short period of six weeks, in which case a number of persons now confined in prison upon treasonable charges must be liberated, and left to follow their secret machinations without controul. He should therefore move for leave to bring in a bill to continue for a time to be limited, the said act."
Sir John Newport,
in rising to trespass upon the attention of the house, hoped he should not be considered as throwing any censure upon the government of Ireland, or any insinuation that the power reposed by the existing law in the hands of the present Chief Governor of that part of the empire, had been productive of any
312
313
Mr. Dennis Browne
agreed that the greater
314
Mr. Hutchinson
deplored the necessity which he supposed the govt. felt of proposing so very strong a measure, without a full and previous explanation of the grounds on which it was demanded. If the necessity was shewn, he was sure no person would differ from them in a moment like the present. He would not, however, refuse his assent because the necessity was not shewn. He wished to call the attention of ministers to the full consideration of the state of Ireland, as he had repeatedly endeavoured to do before. He was, therefore, prepared to give them the most ample support they could desire; though there existed no disturbance, nor apprehension of distraction, to prevent their looking into the whole state and system of the country with a view to that general amelioration which was so much required. It was in the hope and with the design, that no local troubles, no partial disaffection, should call off the attention of parliament, or of his maj.'s cabinet, from the consideration that Ireland at large demanded and deserved of it, that he supported this measure, which was particularly necessary in a war like the present. He lamented again that it was not advisable to state the grounds on which the renewal of the suspension was asked, as they must be secrets of state; and when he acceded
315
Sir John Stuart
said, it did not surprise him much that gentlemen should receive the proposition for this measure with so much coldness; but he happened, in the course of his official connection with the govt. of Ireland, to have the melancholy experience of circumstances to prove the necessity for this measure, and he had no hesitation, for one, to declare it was in dispensably requisite for the tranquillity of that country. He was himself the representative of a county as sincerely attached as any in Ireland to Britain, and the Brit. constitution. This measure was called for by the loyal part of the people for their security and protection against the machinations of the disaffected. It was not now prudent or desirable to go through all the circumstances which rendered such a measure necessary in a country just freed from one rebellion which had succeeded to another, and in which this bill would be the principal support of the loyal and well affected. It was also satisfactory to have an assurance from experience, that the powers it gave would not he abused. He knew the nobleman at the head of the Irish govt. and had opportunities of seeing that he inherited from his illustrious ancestors a zealous attachment to the constitution. He had, in fact, conducted himself in such a manner throughout the whole course of his govt. that there was not a man in the country who had not the fullest confidence that he would not abuse any power entrusted to him. With respect to grounds to be laid by govt. from the information that had reached it, he had to say, that while he teas in office in Ireland (as attorney general,) information had been given by persons connected with the disaffected; and that the exposing to public view the channels through which this information had been obtained, would have the effect to deprive govt. of the sources to future discoveries, and to expose the persons who had made the communication to the knife of the assassin. The numbers confined at present were but few; and from the knowledge he himself had of some of them, they were justly detained. If an investigation could with prudence be granted, he had no doubt it would establish the necessity for the support and defence of the loyal.
Mr. Windham
rose to offer a few obser-
316
317
318
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
—I should be extremely desirous, sir, to give way on the present occasion to any gentleman from Ireland whose knowledge of the subject in question must be valuable, were it not that some observations which fell from the right hon. gent. over the way, which seem to me necessarily to call for animadversion. At the sentiments which he has now expressed, it is impossible for me not to feel some surprise. The position which he appeared to me to hold, seemed to go to this extent, that in no case whatever could the habeas corpus act be injustice suspended without a previous enquiry. If this was not the position which he meant to maintain in its full extent, then much, very much of what he has said was unnecessary, because it did not bear upon the present question. But if it were, why then he must have spoken with a full knowledge that it has been the practice of parliament to suspend this act without any previous enquiry, and that it was actually suspended in the course of last war with his full consent and approbation. But the right hon. gent. does not contend that the renewal is not right, but that it ought not to be granted without previous examination. Are there no circumstances, then, in which a contrary practice may not only be necessary, but strictly justifiable upon every principle of reason and common sense? It does, sir, often happen, that a case may be so clear and so notorious, so open to every man's observation, that a public statement of the grounds upon which it is required to adopt strong measures may be both futile and unnecessary. Such a case is the present, and
319
320
321
322
Mr. Windham,
in explanation said, that he had not stated that he would in no circumstances concur in the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act without instituting a committee of inquiry, but this he did say, and was ready to maintain, that upon such grounds as those which were stated for the motion before the house, it would be quite unjustifiable to answer to that motion without previous inquiry.
323
Mr. Fox.
—Much, sir, as I have been alarmed, and have had to regret the opinions avowed, and the conduct pursued by the ministers of this country for several years back, particularly while headed by the right hon. gent. who now presides over the administration of his maj.'s govt. yet I confess that I have never felt an equal degree of alarm to that which the sentiments he has just uttered have excited in my mind. I should hope, sir, that he did not speak seriously. If he did; if he really and deliberately holds such sentiments, I must say that I consider him as maintaining principles the most alarming that I have ever heard promulgated in this house or this country, and such as I could scarcely suppose it possible that any man who imagined the people of England retained any degree of regard for their liberties, would venture to declare, or who professed even a respect for the spirit of the British constitution would hear without pain. If the doctrines which the right hon. gent. has this night avowed, be those upon which he means to act, and if he should obtain power sufficient to carry them into effect, melancholy indeed is the prospect for this country ! But, perhaps, the right hon. gent. meant to use the declarations I have referred to merely as a defence against the arguments of my right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), and not as the indication of a settled opinion. If even so, they were inefficient to the purpose of such defence, and they certainly went much beyond any principles avowed by the right hon. gent. or any of his colleagues, during the last war; yet they were not inconsistent with those principles. They were different from, though not contrary to, the nature of those maxims which dictated that mischievous course of policy towards the people and their privileges, which it was my uniform endeavour to deprecate and prevent. Indeed, the rt. hon. gent. himself never attempted to go the length he has hazarded to-night. He never before ventured to maintain that because some of the people were bad subjects, the liberty of the whole people should be placed at the discretion of the minister and his agents by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. With this statement he has coupled something which he meant as a reply to the arguments of my right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), and as a charge upon me and those gent. who acted with me in resisting the frequent motions for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus
324
325
326
327
328
329
sine die.
330
331
332
Sir Evan Nepean
said, that he had inquired into the situation of Mr. Todd Jones, and found, that though he was discharged, he had no reason to complain, as he was placed in as comfortable a state as a person in his circumstances deserved.
Mr. Fox
observed, that the judges of assize had stated, as a complaint from the county of Cork, the unwholesomeness of the prison in which Mr. Jones was confined. As to the concluding part of the hon. bart.'s observations, he should take occasion to talk a little more about it when the motion he had already alluded to should come before the house.
Lord De Blaquiere
observed, that if it was meant to discuss this question upon any supposition that the two countries, Ireland and England, were in the same situation, gent. were grossly mistaken indeed. The hon. gent. who had just sat down, had given to the sentiments of his
333
Mr. Sheridan
said, he should reserve the full declaration of his sentiments upon the subject before the house for a future stage of the proceeding. He rose only to correct a mistake into which his hon. friend (Mr. Fox) had fallen, in supposing that he had ever supported such a measure as that which was then under discussion. This mistake of his hon. friend arose from this, that upon the motion for an address to his majesty, in answer to his message respecting the riot in Dublin, he spoke against any delay in expressing the abhorrence which the house felt against such atrocities as that message referred to, but he never voted for either the martial law bill, or the act for the suspension of thy Habeas Corpus.
334
Mr. Alexander
was surprised that any gent. should assert, that there existed no cause in Ireland for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act. He believed, that in the north of Ireland the people were, in general, loyal; but disaffection still lurked among them, and if not kept down by the strong hand of power, would soon become too formidable for opposition. An hon. gent. had alluded to the period of history, during the reigns of the earlier princes of the Brunswick family, when the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act first took place, and had compared that epoch to the present; but he did not think the resemblance so strong as the hon. gent. seemed to imagine. At that time the jacobites were contending for the restoration of the Stewarts to the thrones both of G. Brit. and Ireland. They had no common object in view. Now, the exertions of the Irish malcontents are directed to separate Ireland from G. Brit. and to establish in the former country a distinct and independent democracy. The part of Ireland which he had the honour to represent, was in a quiescent state; but he was satisfied that his constituents, although they laboured under no necessity of availing themselves of the suspension, would heartily rejoice at the security that it would afford to such of their neighbours as were not in such an enviable situation. It was a circumstance too well authenticated to admit of the least doubt, that to every point of France that is easily accessible from Ireland, numbers are continually passing, whose object was surely questionable.
Sir John Newport
explained. He had never, in the most distant manner, intimated that he should ultimately oppose the suspension. What he contended for was, that by appointing a committee, the house might be enabled to ascertain with precision, whether such a measure was eligible or not.
Mr. R. Martin (of Galway)
said, he would trouble the house with an observation or two, which he would comprise in a few words. If it had been proposed to him to give a decided affirmative or a decided negative to the motion for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus, he should certainly, with the knowledge of the circumstances of Ireland that he possessed, have preferred the former; but as a middle course had been offered to the house by the motion of an hon. bart. which went
335
Mr. Dawson
could not suffer this question to come to a decision without declaring his hostility to the original motion, and his reasons for supporting the amendment of the hon. baronet. He was confident the right hon. baronet who had brought forward the original motion had
336
For the original motion
112
For the amendment
33
Majority
79
List of the Minority.
Adair, Robert
Hughes, W. L.
Bagenel, Walter
Johnstone, G.
Calcraft, John
Kinnaird, Hon. C.
Cavendish, Lord G.
Latouche, R.
Cavendish, William
Latouche, J.
Chapman, Charles
Martin, R.
Creevey, T.
North, Dudley
Dawson, R.
Petty, Lord H.
Douglas, Marquis of
Plumer, W.
Ebrington, Lord
Newport, Sir. J.
Eliot, William
Sheridan, R. B.
Fellowes, Robert
Temple, L.
Fitzpatrick, Rt. Hon. R
Walpole, Hon. G.
Folkestone, Viscount
Western, C. C.
Fox, Hon. C. J.
Windham, Rt. Hon. W.
Grey, Hon. Charles
Wynne, Charles W. W.
Hamilton, Lord A.
Wynne, Sir W. W. W.
Holland, H. jun.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 11, 1805.
[NAVAL INQUIRY]
The Earl of Albemarle
said, that before proceéding to the
337
Earl St. Vincent
said, he availed him self of the first full attendance to notice what had fallen, from a right hon. gent, at the head of his maj.'s councils, in another place, on Tuesday last, (see p. 274) and to demand of the noble lords on the ministerial bench, to declare, whether it ever has been, or was now., in the contemplation of his maj.'s ministers, to institute any enquiry into his conduct while at the head of the admiralty board. He believed he had some firm friends upon that bench; and he implored them, as the greatest mark of friendship they could confer on him, to furnish an opportunity to disclose the source and spring of every action of his life, public and private; more especially those which governed his conduct as first lord of the admiralty.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that he could not Undertake to give any answer, or to enter into an explanation respecting what had passed in another place; but, as far as his own enquiries went into the noble lord's conduct, either before or after he left his situation, there did not certainly exist any grounds for thinking that such a
338
Earl St. Vincent
again rose, and after making some apologies to the house, said, that he was not satisfied with that answer; and that he positively repeated his demand to be informed, whether there was any intention to bring a charge against him, or not?
Lord Hawkesbury
repeated, that according to any information he might be supposed, from his official situation to be capable of giving, he was not aware of the existence of any such intention as that to which the noble lord had alluded.
The Earl of Suffolk
wished to know whether another report, from which much was expected, would be forthcoming from the commission appointed to enquire into the naval department? Their services were so eminently useful that he had no scruple in saying, they were entitled to the thanks of that house.—On the motion of the Duke of Clarence, the tenth report was ordered to be printed.
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]
Lord Mulgrave
moved the order of the day for taking into consideration the papers relative to the discussion with Spain, and also the additional papers, presented on the 2d, 4th, and 6th days of February, copies of which will be found in p. 61, 171, 229, and 291 of this volume. His ldp. said, that in laying the different papers and documents before their ldps. from time to time, he had been guided by a sincere and anxious wish to have that house as fully and completely informed upon the subject, in every respect, as the other house of parliament. He wished to call the attention of the house to this point, merely with a view to impress their ldps. with the conviction that whatever difference of opinion might possibly exist as to the subject in general, or any of its parts, there existed no desire, on the part of his maj.'s ministers in that house, to conceal or withhold any information whatever, which it was safe or practicable to lay before parliament. With respect to the general subject which they were about to consider, he was fully sensible of its importance and magnitude, and he trusted it would fully appear, on due enquiry and investigation, that the state in which this country is now placed, with respect to Spain, was not in the smallest degree desired, sought for, or still less provoked by any conduct on the part of his maj.'s govt.
339
340
341
l.
342
343
344
Earl Spencer
rose. His lordship said, he saw the matter in a light so extremely different, in almost every particular, from the noble lord who had just sat down, that he should ill discharge his duty to his sovereign and the country, did he not state some of his reasons of dissent from the address which had just been moved. Without any prefatory observations on the subject, he trusted that noble lords would believe that he would be one of the last men in that house, for the mere sake of opposition to a minister, to do any thing which could at all cast discredit on the govt. where the character of the country was so intimately concerned in the discussion. He felt, however, that he should in this case be committing the, honour and dignity of the country, were he to abstain from delivering the sentiments which occurred to him, on a fair, dispassionate, and careful examination of the materials on the table. In doing so, what appeared to him as being the most regular and parliamentary course would be to move an amendment, He could not propose to negative the address moved; by the noble lord. Having such materials; before them as were now lying on the
345
346
347
Lord Sidmouth
rose, for the purpose of supporting the address. The noble viscount said, that he saw no difficulty whatever in justifying the grounds of the war. With respect to that part of the papers now before parliament which more immediately referred to his own conduct while in power, and that of those who acted with him, he found it needless to go into any length of discussion. As to the grounds of the war, he had no hesitation in saying, that if ever there was a time when the policy and necessity of a war were justifiable, it was the present. The govt. of this country had acquitted itself with great propriety and great honour on the occasion. He rejoiced in that system of patience and forbearance which had been adopted by the British govt. from the very commencement of the discussion between the two courts till the rupture which followed. At no period of his life did he feel more satisfaction than at that in which he spoke; because he could conscientiously support those measures which reflected so much honour on the liberality of this country. Our govt. had not only discharged its duty to the public with great fidelity, but had taken special care that we should not injure the interests of our old and faithful ally, Portugal, in the discussion which had engaged the attention of the ministers-of the two countries. The system of patience and forbearance which had distinguished our proceedings towards Spain, was so connected with the safety and happiness of Portugal, that our ministers were under the absolute necessity of acting with the greatest delicacy, watchful at the same time of our national honour. They had triumphed in the result. If that system was commendable and wise in policy towards Spain, how much more was it in preserving our interests with Portugal, by preventing an immediate rupture between the latter and France! But the period had not then arrived when France was to force Spain to break its neutrality, and therefore the latter was allowed to conduct it-
348
349
350
351
352
Lord King
contended that the principles on which this discussion with Spain had been conducted were inconsistent and contradictory. The forbearance that had been exercised at the beginning of it ill accorded with the system of hostility that succeeded. Ministers denied the existence of any convention between them and the govt. of Spain, respecting the stipulated sums that Spain was to pay to France in lieu of contingents; but even from their own statements it was impossible not to discover some sort of agreement or understanding. Without gross misrepresentation, it could hot be denied, that satisfaction, was obtained on the principal points that were at issue. The noble lord's instructions shewed that he had obtained satisfaction from some quarter. If he was satisfied, why did he not inform Mr. Frere so? or if not satisfied, why did he not press that gentleman to get farther satisfaction? But the noble lord had perhaps been busy with the volunteer bill when he should have been attending to his foreign relations. The noble lord then at-temped to account for the activity exhibited so lately in that department. The present ministers had declaimed against the former for their want of energy, and they wished, perhaps, to shew that they had more spirit, and as they could make no impression on France they made Spain the object of their aggression. The noble lord then contended, that before any re-monstrances could have arrived in Spain, even before they had been dispatched from this country, acts had been committed that amounted to war, and this had been done without any explanation. And this act of hostility was not a precaution for the purpose of preventing troops being sent to Ferrol, which had been complained of, but a precaution taken to prevent a subsidy to France, to which they seemed to have made no positive objection. They had not taken measures to secure Portugal previous to breaking with Spain, nor were we now in a situation to protect her. Nor were we. able, he thought, to make any impression or the Spanish settlements of America,
353
The Earl of Westmoreland
contended, that the system of forbearance pursued by his maj.'s ministers in the early period of this business, was justified by our own situation, and by that of Europe. Spain had also held out some hopes that she might not be entirely subservient to the views of France. From reasons of policy also he justified the subsequent conduct of govt. Were they blamed because they had made no previous declaration of war? this conduct, the noble lord argued, was not unprecedented. It was thus that the Spanish armada had attacked our shores, and it Was thus that the war of the year 1756 had commenced without any previous notice. This point the noble lord farther illustrated from ancient as well as modern policy, and argued, that it was by no means inconsistent with the laws of nations. Though they had made no declaration of war, however, a dispatch had been sent intimating that their forbearance was only temporary. It was impossible for his maj.'s govt. as circumstances stood, to avoid the war: he would therefore, his lordship said, give his vote for the address.
Earl Darnley
maintained, that if war was commenced without any previous declaration, it ought to be on such grounds only as were clear to ourselves and to all Europe. Nothing less could justify the omission of such a formality. He reprobated the capture of the frigates, and thought it little better than a species of piracy. He contended that the sum given to France by Spain was not, contrary to what had been stated, more thin an equivalent for the stipulated contingents, of men and ships. There were strong grounds for peace, he argued, founded in policy, on account of Portugal, which was by this means, left exposed, or would be obliged to declare against us also. He had never heard the reason, he said, why other ships of war, and vessels carrying naval stores, were permitted to pass unmolested, while we had thought ourselves authorized to seize on the frigates. This circumstance-would na-
354
Contents
36
Non-contents
114
Majority against the amendment
78
List of the Minority.
Duke of Clarence,
Earl Cholmonderey,
Duke of Norfolk,
Karl of Gulldford,
Duke of Devonshire,
Earl Cowper,
Duke of Grafton,
Earl Forte scue.
Duke of Bedford,
Earl Darnley,
Duke of St. Alban's,
Earl of Stair,
Marquis of Buckingham,
Earl of Cassilis,
Marquis of Lansdowne,
Earl of Besborough,
Marquis of Bute,
Lord De Clifford,
Earl of Derby,
Lord Say and Sele,
Earl of Carlisle,
Lord King,
Earl of Suffolk,
Lord Montfort,
Earl Fitzwilliam,
Lord StaWell,
Earl of Berkeley,
Lord Grantley,
Earl of Thanet,
Lord Grenville,
Earl of Leicester.
Lord Dundas,
Earl of Albemarle,
Lord Carysfort,
Earl Spencer,
Lord Hutchinson.
The original question was then resumed.
Earl Fitzwilliam
was of opinion, that at so late an hour, it would be advisable to adjourn the debate.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that he should Certainly oppose the adjournment, if a motion to that effect were made. The question had already been discussed at great length; but if the noble earl thought that it still required farther consideration, it was not so late but they might yet hear every objection that could be started to the address, and on many occasions the house had sat to a much later hour. If any observations were made which required an answer, he should claim the indulgence of their lordships for that purpose.
Earl Fitzwilliam
said that in his opinion no satisfactory answer had been given to the observations of his noble friends on these, most extraordinary papers.
Lord Grenville
then rose, and in a speech of considerable length, entered into an examination of the papers on the table, and of the whole conduct of ministers during the negotiation. His ldp. professed his utter astonishment that the noble lord who had risen to express his determination to oppose any motion for an adjournment, had not thought it his duty to say one word in explanation of the huge mass of papers on the table, so as to throw some light on a
355
356
Yari nantes in gurgite vasto.
357
358
359
360
361
Lord Hawkesbury
said, he had purposely avoided rising earlier in the discussion; because, feeling his own official conduct deeply interested in the whole of this negotiation, he wished to bear, at length, the whole of the arguments against it, before he offered himself to the consideration
362
ipso facto,
363
364
Lord Mulgrave,
in the absence of his noble friend, lord Harrowby, felt it his duty to vindicate that noble lord from every imputation of lassitude or insufficiency, which had been thrown upon his conduct; and to assure the house, that, on all occasions, from his accession to office, his exertions had been most sedulous and indefatigable, in endeavouring to avert hostilities, by every means honourable to the Country.—At 4 o'clock in the morning, the question was put by the Lord Chancellor on the original address, which was carried without a division; and the house adjourned till Wednesday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Monday, February 11, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Owen, from the East India House, presented copies of extracts of the correspondence between the British govt. in the East Indies and Holkar, which
365
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
moved the order of the day for taking into consideration the Papers relative to the Discussion with Spain, and also that the three additional papers, presented on the 2d, 4th, and 6th of February, be at the same time taken into consideration. Copies of the said papers will be found in pp. 6l, 171, 229, and 291 of this volume. On the question being put, and agreed to,
366
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose, and spoke as follows.—I feel great satitfaction, sir, that the day is at length arrived when we can enter into that full and ample discussion of the papers before the house, which the magnitude of the subject requires, and though I am satisfied that a perusal of these papers, and an impartial consideration of the transactions to which they refer, would be sufficient to convince every rational mind of the rectitude of the measures pursued by his maj.'s. govt. and of the justice of the war in which we are engaged; yet, reflecting how much the complete illustration of the policy by which we have been guided, and the vindication of the steps which have been adopted, are necessary to the credit of his maj.'s govt. and to the honour of the British nation, I trust I shall be excused if I go somewhat at length into a review of the different aspects of our relations, and the progress of the discussions with Spain previous to the war. In the course of what I shall have the honour to submit to the house, I hope that I shall be able, not only to establish that which, I believe, indeed few can be now disposed to question, the ultimate justice and necessity of the war, but also, the exemplary moderation, liberality, and forbearance of the ministers of this country in every period of our relations with Spain since the breaking out of the war with France; and when unexpected circumstances required the departure from the system of lenity which it was always the desire of the Brit. govt. to exercise, that though they were not deficient in vigour to vindicate the rights, and to avenge the cause of the country, they never deviated from the laws of nations or the principles of good faith.—In the first place then, it it is necessary to take into consideration the relative situation in which Spain stood towards this country at the breaking out of the war, in consequence of her antecedent engagements with France. I need hardly say more to characterise that situation, than barely mention the treaty of St. Ildefonso, and the stipulations it contained. Spain was bound to France by a treaty on the face of it both offensive and defensive, and, in fact, a treaty which was by the contracting parties so entitled. Besides guaranteeing neutrality, their territories, &c. they agree to assist each other with 15 ships of the line, and 24,000 men: and this assistance, too, as appears from the 8th art. is to be given upon the
367
ipso facto
368
369
370
371
l.
l.
372
l.
l.
l.
l.
373
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
374
375
sine qua non,
376
377
378
379
380
381
en flute;
382
real
nominal.
383
384
sine qua non,
385
Mr. Grey
rose, oppressed and over-powered by the sense of the numerous de-
386
387
388
389
390
391
392
393
394
395
396
397
398
399
400
Lord Castlereagh
rose. His ldp. said, he felt no necessity to follow the hon. gent. through all his details and arguments, when he recollected the able and animated speech made by his right hon. friend who opened the debate. Of whatever blame could be imputed to the govt. for their conduct towards Spain, he was very ready to take his full share. He was happy to rind the hon. gent. agreed with govt. on the construction to be put on the treaty of St. Hdefonso. Indeed, he went as tar on this subject as could be wished by any one; he allowed, that no treaty going to the length that this does could be called inoffensive. When the hon. gent, had made this allowance, he was surprised- to find him follow it up by observing, that he considered it would have been highly proper for this country to have obliged Spain to come to some distinct explanation. He was more surprised at this, because the hon. gent. agreed to the policy of keeping Spain neutral, so much so, that he conceived a subsidy of 3 millions annually not too great a price to pay for Spanish neutrality. But what encreased his surprise to its greatest height was, that the hon. gent. after commiserating the unfortunate and dependant situation of Spain, could think it expedient to press for an explana-
401
402
403
404
405
The Advocate General
(Sir John Nicholl) entered at considerable length into a discussion of the merits of the case on the part of our govt. as their conduct appeared to him to be countenanced and
406
407
408
Mr. Windham
said, that he was ready to follow the learned gent, who had just sat down by entering fully into the subject, if it should not be the pleasure of the house to accede to the proposition he had to submit, for an adjournment of the disscussion. This proposition would not, he hoped, be resisted, as it must be obvious from the lateness of the hour, and from the number of gentlemen who were anxious to deliver their opinions upon the important subject under consideration, that it would be impossible to bring the debate to a close in the course of the night. The right hon. gent. concluded with moving, that this house do now adjourn.
The Chanc. of the Excheq.
said, that although it was his wish, that if possible, the, debate should be brought to a conclusion in the course of this night; yet as> there were
409
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 12, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The coal factor's indemnity bill went through a committee, and the report ordered was to be received to-morrow.—Mr. Grey moved for an account of all balances due to the public, in the hands of John Hamilton, esq. receiver-general of the land-tax for Scotland, at the time of his decease; also, a copy of the royal warrant, granting an additional pension to Ld. Melville, as lord of the privy seal of Scotland; also, u copy of a commission to the hon. Robert Dundas Saunders, and others, of the office of chamberlain of the lordship of Fife and Strathern, in the room of John Crawford, esq. resigned; also, an account of the intromissions of John Crawford, esq. with the rents of the lordship of Fife and Strathern, shewing the balance due by him to the public at the time of his resignation; together with a statement of the manner in which the balance due by the said John Crawford has been disposed of; also, a copy of any grant or grants made to the hon. R. D.Saunders, and others, of any part of the rents that had become due to the crown, of the lordship of Fife and Strathern. Ordered.—Mr. Elliot moved, for a return of the effective strength of the royal veteran, and garrison battalions, according to the last returns. Ordered.—The loyalty loan bill was read a 2d time.
[BRITISH MUSEUM.]
Mr. Rose
presented a petition from the trustees of the British museum, stating, that in consequence of the expence attending the enlargement of the building for the purpose of depositing the Egyptian antiquities, the sums allowed by parliament had been inadequate, and therefore praying further aid.
Mr. Bankes
observed, that as the subject was now before parliament, it might be necessary to make an observation. He thought that this national museum ought to be made more what it was originally intended it should be, and particularly that it should be rendered easier of access. It was an institution intended purely for national purposes, and for the benefit and instruction of the public at large, by ready
410
Mr. Rose
said, that when he last stated the expences of the British museum, he had said that the orders which gave access to it, for the purpose of viewing the curiosities, might be obtained by persons of every description. He understood that if any person desirous of visiting the, museum applied on one day, he was admitted the day after.
Mr. Fuller
observed, that among the various articles in the museum, there were some extremely rare and valuable, particularly books and manuscripts. He was of opinion, that without proper precautions, it would be very dangerous to suffer all sorts of persons to have promiscuous access.
Mr. W. Smith
said, that in the countries on the continent, particularly one where there was a valuable collection, of medals, he had never heard of any inconvenience arising from persons having access at all hours. He did not mean to infer that the trustees of the British museum were not willing to accommodate the public, but only to remark, that if those regulations were attended to which were adopted in other countries, greater facilities might be offered to the public, especially to foreigners.
Mr. Fuller
said, that happy it was for this country it did differ from others. Perhaps if a man stole a print from the museum in France, he would be shut in prison for life.—The account was ordered to be laid upon the table. A motion was also made for a return, specifying the number of persons admitted to visit the British museum within the last six months, and the regulations attending their admission. Ordered.—Dr. Grey presented at the bar, the general account of the British museum for 1804, and estimate of account for 1805, and also the British museum new building account.
[WAR WITH SPAIN.]
The order of the day being read for resuming the adjourned debate on this subject, several members rose. The Speaker explained the usual practice of the house with regard to the preference to be given to the member who rose the last to speak when the debate wag adjourned, which he said belonged to the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham,) who was upon his legs when the adjournment took place; that gent. however, having waved his right,
411
Mr. Raine
rose. He began by apologising for preventing any gent. from being heard, but upon so momentous a question he was anxious to deliver his sentiments at as early an hour as possible, being conscious that when the patience of the house was at all exhausted, he could not hope to engage that attention, which others of greater experience and known talents could command at any period of the-debate, however advanced. Although the right lion. gent. who opened the debate, and those who followed him in support of the address, had thought fit conveniently for the purpose of their argument, to consider this question as embracing only one topic of discussion, to those who attentively considered it, as it appeared to him, it must obviously present itself in two points of view; the one, whether supposing an apparent ground of complaint to have been laid, under all the circumstances of the case, it was consistent with sound policy to involve this country in a war with Spain; the other, whether the manner of commencing hostilities can be justified. The latter, with the leave of the house, he should take the liberty of examining first, as being by far the most important, in as much as it involved in its consideration up less a question than that of national honour. And he must confess, that so far from thinking the mode in which hostilities were commenced justifiable, he alluded of course to the attack upon the Spanish frigates, to him it appeared little better than an act of piracy. This was no doubt a grave charge, and ought not to be imputed on light grounds, but if he had the good fortune to convey intelligibly to the house that which had impressed complete conviction upon his own mind, viz. that it was not warranted by any sound precedent to be found in all political history, that it was a violation of the national faith implicitly pledged, and that it was contrary to, the express letter and spirit of the law of nations, he should go pretty far towards proving, if not the whole length of proving, that the act was little better than piratical. With regard to the precedents, he believed he might safely challenge those who supported the other side of the question to traverse the whole range of universal history so far as regards the practice of civilized nations; certain he was, he could boldly defy them to ransack our own history for a single instance of acknowledged authority upon which the act in
412
413
414
415
pro-testing always
416
towards the end of September,
In consequence of this intelligence
417
418
419
captured.
420
Mr. Bankes
expressed his determination, to vote for the address, and wished shortly to detail his reasons to the house. He could not discern those breaches of good
421
422
423
Mr. Johnstone,
in opposition to the hon. gent. who had just sat down, though t the character and the honour of the country deeply compromised in the discussions, the official documents of which were now under the consideration of the house. He would maintain this opinion, although he was ready enough to believe, that the greater part of the country was fond of a war with Spain. The idea of being at war with a power vulgarly imagined to be possessed of immense treasures, was congenial enough to popular sentiment; but he trusted that that house would not allow itself to be hurried away by any such delusion, but examine with the strictest scrutiny the papers before them, ere they ventured to concur in the address proposed by the right hon. the
424
425
426
427
Mr. Hiley Addington
could not refrain from expressing the greatest salivation at being able entirely to concur in opinion with the hon. gent. who had spoken second in order in the debate of this evening; he wished, however, to add one or two observations to those which that hon. gent. had made on the statements of the learned gent. who had preceded him, and who commenced the discussion of this night. He should avoid adverting to the speech of the hon. gent who had just sat down, not out of the slightest disrespect to that gent. but because to all his arguments, complete answers would be found in the statement made yesterday evening by his right hon. friend near him, and he was, very unwilling to certain the house long, anxious as they necessarily must be, to hear the opinions of so many great and distinguished characters among them, who had not been
428
429
Dr. Laurence
said, that it was his intention last night to have noticed, in a few sentences, what had fallen from his hon. and learned friend (sir John Nicholl). Had be done so, at that period of the night, and exhausted as he and the house in general were, he should have confined himself merely to two or three points which had been touched on by his learned friend. Having, however, this night witnessed
430
431
432
433
434
435
436
437
The Master of the Rolls
said, he would confine himself to the topics which were most important, and which bore most on the issue of the question, without going into the variety of details foreign to the main point into which other gentlemen had entered so much at large. There was much in the conduct of administration, and in the mode in which this business had been managed from the commencement, that might afford room for a great variety of opinions without bearing at all on the main question; but which might yet if much enforced in debate, have great influence on the decision as to that question. These points were certainly much connected with the question, but they ought not at all to enter into the decision upon it. Neither could he see how the dispatches in the early part of the negotiation could be made to enter into the consideration. The war originated in a remote cause, which was the unrenounced treaty of St. Ildefonso, and in a proximate cause, which was the intelligence of the preparation of armaments, and the refusal to explain the objects of these armaments. He conceived we had a right to demand an explanation of these objects on several considerations. First, our situation was to be considered, involved as we were in a war with France. Then, how far our situation with Spain was changed by this war with France, Then, what engagements we had entered into with Spain, whether by agreement or convention, for the name was immaterial, in order to ascertain what we gave to Spain, and on what conditions. Then, whether these conditions were violated, and what consequences, in point of right, resulted from such deviation. Afterwards, the consequences of the claims of explanation, and the amount of the satisfaction given. He understood his learned friend to say, that the treaty of St. Ildefonso did not carry on the face of it a
438
439
ad referendum,
ad referendum,
440
441
all
any
442
all
ulterior
443
444
445
446
447
448
Mr. Fox
then rose. He began by observing, that it was the less necessary for him to occupy much of their attention, since the arguments urged by his hon. friend who moved the amendment remained completely unanswered; and the hon. and learned gent, who had just sat down had not at all succeeded in overthrowing the doctrine laid down in the speech of his hon. and learned friend near him (Dr. Laurence); a speech not only replete with good sense, but what was not less valuable, with the most enlightened and liberal maxims of policy. But what still further superseded the necessity of his going into any length of discussion was, that the hon. and learned gent, had not, in the course of his reasoning, attempted to uphold the distinction betwixt a suspension of hostilities and a system of neutrality, by which we were to be placed in a more favourable situation, and enabled to take whatever advantage we thought proper, whenever a convenient opportunity offered itself. He confessed that the language he had heard on this subject from the right hon. gent. who opened the discussion, and other gent. on the same side, struck him with astonishment. It was neither more nor less than the language of gross fraud. When he heard the right of putting an end to neutrality asserted, just at that period when we could take the greatest advantage of the state with which the neutrality previously existed, he could not help considering it as altogether monstrous. He was happy to find that the hon. and learned gent, had not attempted to support such a doctrine as this, that we should be justified in entering into an implied agreement with another power, by which that power conceived itself safe from attack, merely with the purpose of renewing hostilities, at the moment when they were least expected. He was glad to find, at the same time, that the learned gent. was not disposed to deny the existence of that agreement which some other gent, seemed so anxious either to deny altogether, or to misrepresent its nature and
449
450
451
452
453
454
455
456
457
458
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—After the length of time, sir, which this business has already taken up, and more especially after the able and luminous point of view in which my opinions on this subject have been placed by my hot), and learned friend (the Master of the Rolls), the impression of whose speech I hope still remains with the house, notwithstanding the attempt which has been made to destroy it, I do not see any necessity for troubling the house much farther in detail. Yet, late as is the time to which the discussion has been protracted, I trust I shall meet with the indulgence of the house, while I shortly advert to some leading points that have been brought forward relative to the conduct of govt. some of them referring personally to myself. The first point, then; to which I would turn the attention of the house is, the attempt which has been made to represent my hon. and learned friend and myself as differing somewhat in our opinions relative to the commencement of the war with Spain, whereas, in fact, no difference ever existed; and my hon. and learned friend has only rescued the arguments which I made use of from the vulgar and wretched misrepresentation to which they have been exposed. An attempt has been made to prove that I and lord Hawkesbury were so mad as to say to Spain, "we shall forbear to exercise our rights
459
460
461
462
463
464
465
466
467
Mr. Fox
stated, in explanation, that he had been wholly misunderstood by the right hon. gent. He had never suggested the propriety of obtaining a categorical answer on the subject of the treaty of St. Ildefonso, which might have
468
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
declared that he was fully satisfied with the explanation, and wished the argument there to rest between them.—The house then divided, when there appeared,
For the original question,
313
For the amendment,
106
Majority
207
Adjourned at six o'clock on Wednesday morning.
List of the Minority.
Adair, R.
Johnstone, George
Althorpe, Lord
Knight, R. Payne
Andover, Viscount
Ladbrooke, Robert
Anson, Thos.
Latouche, R.
Aubrey, Sir John
Latouche, John, jun.
Bagenel, Walter
Laurence, French
Bamfylde, Sir C.
Lawley, Sir R.
Barclay, Sir Robert
Lloyd, J. M.
Barclay, George
Macmahon, J.
Berkeley, Hon. G. C.
Maddocks, W. A.
Best, W. D.
Martin, R.
Bligh, Thos.
Milner, Sir W.
Bouverie, Hon. E.
Moore, G. P.
Brooke, Charles
Moore, P.
Calcraft, J.
Morpeth, Viscount
Cavendish, Lord G.
Morris, Edward
Cavendish, W.
Newport, Sir John
Caulfield, Hon. H.
North, Dudley
Chapman, Charles
Northey, Wm.
Coke, Thos. Wm.
Ord, Wm.
Combe, H. C.
Osborne, Lord F. G.
Cooke, Bryan
Ossulston, Lord
Courtenay, John
Palmer, John
Creevey, Thomas
Pierce, Henry
Curwen, J. C.
Pelham, Hon. C. A.
Daley, D. Bowes
Paxton, Sir R.
Douglas, Marquis
Petty, Lord Henry
Dundas, Hon. C. L.
Plumer, Wm.
Dundas, Hon. G. H. L.
Poyntz, Wm. S.
Dundas, Hon. L.
Proby, Viscount
Durand, J. H.
Pytches, John
Ebrington, Lord
Raine, Jonathan
Elliot, Win.
Russell, Lord Wm.
Erskine, Hon. Thos.
St. John, St. And.
Fellowes, Robt.
Scott, Joseph
Fitzgerald, Hon. J.
Seudamore, John
Fitzpatrick, Rt. H.R.
Shelly, T.
Folkestone, Viscount
Sheridan, R B.
Fox, Hon. C. J.
Smith, Wm.
Foley, A.
Sommerville, Sit M.
Francis, Philip
Spencer, Lord R.
Geary, Sir William
Stanley, Lord
Grenfell, Pascoe
Symonds, T. P.
Grenville, Rt. Hon. T.
Temple, Earl
Grey, Hon. Charles
Townsend, Lord
Hamilton, Lord A.
Tyrwhitt, Thos.
Harrison, John
Walpole, Hon. G.
Heathcote, John
Ward, Hon. J. W.
Hippisley, Sir J. C.
Western, C. C.
Holland, Henry, jun.
Whitbread, S.
Hughes, W. Lewis
Windham, Rt. H. W.
Hulkes, James
Wynne, C. W. W.
Hutchinson, H. C. H.
Wynne, Sir W.
Jekyll, Joseph
Young Sir W.
469
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 13, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The farther consideration of the appeal cause, Lucina
v.
v.
[IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.]
Lord King
said he should have to call their ldps'. attention to a point of considerable importance: it would refer principally to the exercise of the discretionary powers vested in the crown, by the suspension of
470
Lord Hakesbury
observed, that, with respect to the first and second heads under which the noble lord's motion was classed, he had no objection to producing the statements required; but, with regard to the last head, he thought the case was very different, and that a sense of duty impelled him to object to it. The act in question vested a discretionary power to apprehend and detain, without bringing to trial, persons, who, there was reason to suspect, were guilty of traitorous practices; and a disclosure of the conditions upon which any of those persons might be discharged, under the circumstances of the time, was so obviously objectionable, upon considerations of prudence and policy, that he deemed it unnecessary to take up the time of their ldps. in demonstrating it. At the same time, he was not prepared to say, nor did he mean to state, whether or not there were any persons in the predicament assumed by that part of the noble lord's motion; but, to contend, that, if there were, it would be impolitic and imprudent in the extreme, to agree to that part of the motion, which, if pressed, he felt his duty to resist.
Lord King
replied, that, in consequence of what had just fallen from the noble sec. of state, he should, for the present, wave that part of the motion. However, he begged the noble lord to consider farther of the point, between that, and some future day, whether it was right to persist in refusing to lay such information before parliament? In his own mind, it was highly proper; and it was his intention, therefore, to bring forward a motion to the like effect on u, future opportunity.—The question was put on the first and second motions, and they were ordered accordingly.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 13, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Mitford presented at the bar, pursuant to an order, an account
471
472
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 14, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The exchequer bills bill, the annual indemnity and the assessed tax commissioners' bills, went through committees of the whole house, were reported, and ordered to be read a third time tomorrow.—The second reading of Lingham's divorce bill was postponed till Monday, and some private business disposed of; after which, the house adjourned till to-morrow, and their lordships proceeded with their address to his majesty at St. James's.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 14, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The Speaker having taken
473
pro tempore,
[IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.]
Sir Evan Nepean moved the order of the day for the 2d reading of the bill for further suspending the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, for a time to be limited. On the question being put from the chair,
Lead Henry Petty
rose and observed
474
475
476
Mr. Ker
said, that no man more seriously deplored than he did the necessity for calling on parliament to pass such a bill; but he was still convinced, that necessity was imperious and pressing. The house would recollect, that when a similar bill was brought forward, in the year 1802, arguments precisely similar to those offered this night by the noble lord, were opposed to it by those who could not be induced to believe in the lurking sedition then brooding in Ireland: but, unhappily, the dreadful rebellion which burst forth in the Irish capital, in the summer of 1803, but too strongly verified the apprehensions of those who were advocates for the bill, of which number he was one. It was for the want of such power in the hands of the magistrates that year, that sedition had gone such lengths, and that sedition would again gather new strength, if not timely prevented, by renewing those powers' which were not likely to be abused in such hands as those of the nobleman now at the head of the Irish govt. the moderation and lenity of whose measures had shone so eminently conspicuous. In that part of the country with which he was more immediately connected, he was happy to know that the utmost loyalty and tranquillity prevailed; but he had lately heard that some resolutions of the magistrates of the county of Waterford had been published, in which they state their determination to apply to govt. to revive martial law, if the seditious did not desist from their daring conduct. He had thought it his duty to make some enquiry on this subject, and several gent. assured him the advertisement he alluded to did exist, and was called for by the sense of the magistrates as to the state of the county. He appealed for the truth of this statement to an hon. bart. opposite (sir John Newport), who had delivered his sentiments on the subject on a former evening. Such, he was convinced, was the existing necessity which called for this bill, in many parts of Ireland, that numbers of those who had been formerly most clamorous against it, were now most
477
Sir John Newport
said, that being called on by the last speaker, he should offer a few remarks in support of the consistency of the opinion he had formerly thought it his duty to deliver. He did not deny that there were appearances of disaffection in some parts of Ireland, but he never could admit the principle, that because one part of a kingdom was deficient in the duty they owed to their king and country, the whole kingdom was to be placed beyond the pale of the common law of the land. He was aware of the proceedings to which the hon. member alluded, but he thought that they afforded no reason whatever for the measure now before the house. The fact was, that the principal offenders in the county of Waterford were now actually in gaol and liable to be tried by the judges of assize. It was not therefore to be argued, that the proceedings referred to offered even an excuse for a bill which had a tendency to place the whole people of Ireland beyond the protection of the common law. On a former day he had not argued that the measure in question was unnecessary, but what he called for was an inquiry to demonstrate its necessity. Nothing short of a notoriety extreme and uncontradicted, could, in his opinion, justify this measure, and conceiving that this necessity had not been made out, he had moved an amendment, the object of which was to institute that inquiry, by which only a fair decision of the house could be formed. He wished the business to be probed to the bottom, and he never would submit to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, unless on the clearest grounds.
Mr. Pytches
opposed the bill. It was, he said, highly improper to pass a measure of this sort without a previous inquiry. He would ask any dispassionate man, whether it was fair to the people of Ireland to treat them with less respect than the people of G. Britain? This bill was sown in suspicion and reared in jealousy, and might be attended with the greatest miseries to the people of Ireland. The only reason for all this was the traitorous committee at Paris. By the total omission of any mention of Ireland in his maj.'s speech at the opening of the session, he
478
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 15, 1805.
[CONDUCT OF EARL ST. VINCENT.]
The Duke of Clarence
observed, that on a former evening, a subject was agitated, which was of that nature, as that not only upon public grounds, but from his private feelings, he was induced again to call the attention of their Idp.'s to. He alluded to the circumstance of his noble friend, (earl St. Vincent) then in his place, having enquired, whether it was in the intention of his maj.'s present ministers to investigate any enquiry into his conduct, while he held the high situation he had lately filled under his majesty? He had known the noble earl during twenty-six years, and though, on some certain points, he had had occasion to differ from him, yet it was always with the deepest regret. However, while at the head of the board of admiralty, the conduct of his noble friend was such, that he should defend it, if necessary. Seeing a noble viscount in his place (Sidmouth), who was lately at the head of his maj.'s councils, and at present held a high situation therein, he would beg leave to ask the noble vise, plainly and decisively, whether the noble vise, could say, or could not say, that, so far from, its being
479
Lord Sidmouth,
after shortly adverting to the point, how far he might be warranted in point of parliamentary usage and practice, to answer, in his place, queries of such a nature as that put to him by the noble duke, stated, that with respect to the particular question which his R. H. did him the honour to ask, he had no hesitation in saying (and if he had any hesitation in saying, he should belie every feeling, both private and public, which he possessed with respect to the noble earl, and which all those who knew his character arid conduct must feel) that in his conscience lie believed there existed no ground or reason whatever for enquiring into the official conduct of the noble earl; but, on the contrary, he thought him every way entitled to the approbation and the gratitude of his country.
The Duke of Clarence
replied, that he never yet heard any answer within the walls of that house, which had given him such complete satisfaction, as well in a public as a private point of view; he should therefore, on that subject, never more trouble their ldps. Before he sat down, however, his R. H. observed, there was another question of importance, and which he would wish to have decisively answered; namely, whether it was intended by ministers to make any alteration in the system of the volunteer corps? He rather put this question to his maj.'s secretary of state for the home department; because he conceived the description of force in question was more particularly within the province of that minister. He should possibly have occasion to move for the production of certain documents on the subject; but at present, he would simply ask, whether or not it was intended to make any alteration in the volunteer establishment of the United Kingdom.
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, he would not then enquire how far it could be expected from him, upon' parliamentary grounds, to answer to such questions as those put by the royal duke. He should now only observe, that, if it should be the opinion of his maj.'s govt. that any further alteration was necessary or expedient to be made in the volunteer, or any other ser-
480
The Lord Chancellor
left the woolsack, and declared, that he must enter his serious protest against questions and conversations which were inconsistent with the order and regularity of their lordships proceedings.
The Duke of Clarence,
after being so particularly alluded to by the noble and learned lord, could not refrain from saying a few words in his own defence. If noble lords who attended to their duty in parliament were to be denied all information but such as was agreeable to his maj.'s ministers, there would be no use whatever in their coming to that house; but notwithstanding his ldp.'s conscientious admonition, he should still persist in pursuing that course of proceeding which appeared to him to be right, until he should be convinced that it was wrong. This was the rule of parliamentary conduct which, he conceived, could alone tend to the honour of the sovereign, and the advantage of the state.
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]
Earl Darnley
rose to make his promised motion for the repeal of the Additional Force bill. He said, that with respect to the topic which their ldps. would more particularly have to discuss, it would not be necessary to occupy much of their time. He conceived, that on that head, to call their ldp.'s attention to certain effects of the measure, would alone be requisite. In viewing the subject before them, it would be necessary to advert to the situation of the country at the commencement of the war; a period at which the necessity of strong and energetic measures was universally acknowledged, and the measures which were then resorted to, were submitted to' without murmuring. The administration which succeeded the last, to a certain extent thought a change in the military system of the country expedient; and their prominent measure, in endeavouring to effect this, was the bill then under consideration. These ministers, in that respect, notwithstanding the magnificence and extent of their promises, and the strong and eloquent language in which one of them in particular reprobated the measures of their predecessors as weak, futile, and inefficient, had in their remedial provisions entirely, but above all, in
481
482
483
Earl Camden
rose, fie observed he had listened with attention to the speech of the noble earl, and to him it appeared to be intended rather as an attack upon his maj.'s present govt. than as applicable to the measure in question; this he was the more induced to think, when he considered the allusions made to what had passed the last session of parliament, and the line of observation in which his noble friend indulged himself throughout. Will respect to the bill itself, he was rather obliged to his noble friend for bringing it under consideration. In considering the bill, the peculiar and extraordinary circumstances that preceded it, and which, to a certain extent still continued to operate, should be fairly considered. He was aware that, to a certain extent, endeavours had been made to counteract the operations of the bill; and these views would be rather forwarded, than otherwise, by the holding forth the idea that the measure was not likely to be persisted in. He differed widely from his noble friend in his opinion of the measure, as he knew that it was not only an efficient, but, he believed, it was likely to prove a very beneficial measure; at the same time he admitted, that the numbers at first expected were not raised under the bill. —But when all the circumstances under which it was to be carried into activity, were kept in view, this was less a matter of surprise, as time was necessary to give it a fair chance of success. He had thought the army of reserve act a good measure for giving a large and speedy augmentation to the regular army. But it was not denied, that the army of reserve act was accompanied by many inconveniencies, which it was very desirable to remove. It had been particularly the means of introducing high and unprecedented bounties. Government perceived the necessity of destroying this evil if it could possibly be effected, and the expedient which they had fallen on to accomplish this object was the very bill which the noble lord proposed to repeal. The numbers which had enlisted from the army of reserve into the regulars was a conclusive proof of the general principle on
484
485
The Earl of Suffolk
declared, that he could not discover from the documents on the table, where that large increase to our military force alluded to by the noble lord was stated. He saw only a statement of a few thousand men raised by the bill in the different parts of the United Kingdom. To talk, as the noble lord had done, of the effects of zeal and personal influence in insuring the success of the bill, was quite nugatory. The experiment of the effect of these had been tried, and bad been found inefficient in producing the end in view. In proof of this, the noble earl stated, that in that district in which the personal influence of the right hon. author of the measure chiefly lay, only one out of the quota of five hundred men had been obtained. It was quite clear from the past, that nothing had been effected by the bill, and there was very little hope of much good resulting from it in future. Being a bill totally useless in the attainment of its object, and being attended with many oppressive circumstances, he should certainly vote for its repeal, Before he sat down, he only begged leave to say, that if our force was really so much increased as had been described, the merit of this augmentation belonged to the late administration, and not to his maj.'s present ministers, It was not therefore either fair
486
Lord King
was anxious to know on what grounds ministers were desirous of resting the merits of the bill. He wished to understand whether they meant it as; a bill for recruiting our army, or a bill for raising money. If they meant it as a bill for raising men, it was clear, from the returns on the table, that it had completely failed. Ministers then, by opposing its repeal, certainly now meant it to be considered as a bill for raising money. But it had been said by a noble lord opposite, that if the bill was repealed it would be necessary again to have recourse to the ballot. He, for his part, professed himself no friend to the ballot, but in proposing the repeal he was convinced that his noble friend merely meant to pave the way for a complete review and amendment of our whole military system, and the adoption of such arrangements as would necessarily preclude the appearance of the ballot for ever. The noble lord next wished to know whether the idea of enlisting men for a limited period was to be acted upon, and contended, that the experience derived from the army of-reserve act was a sufficient proof of the inadequacy of such a measure. This inference he could not for a moment admit. Because men were trepanned, as it were, from one service to another, this, was no proof that the system of enlisting for a limited period would not, if well arranged, be of infinite advantage. His lordship complained, that the failure of the bill in producing the quotas required must be felt highly oppressive in many parts of the country. In the county of Surry the fines for deficiencies amounted to upwards of 21,000l. On a calculation 25,000l. would amount to 1s. 6d. in the pound, imposing a burden on the landed interest greater than that which arose from the property tax. The right hon. author of the measure had, previous to his coming into power, talked of nothing but increasing the disposable force of the country. Not a moment was to be lost in gaining the object, and surely it was not asking too much from him to require that in his hands this object should be constantly and steadily pursued. Not a month was to elapse before the army was to be placed on that footing which the circumstances of the country required. But what had, ministers done since their accession to Office to effect this great object? They had literally
487
The Duke of Cumberland
begged the attention of the house for one moment. Some (expressions had fallen from the noble lord
488
The Earl of Westmoreland
said, that no correct opinion could be formed of the bill, of which so much complaint had been made, without attending to the state of the country at the commencement of the war, and to its immediate situation when the bill was passed. Prior to that event, the military forces were very considerably reduced, and the extraordinary means that tere employed to restore the army to its former establishment, on the spur of the occasion, suddenly dried up those sources from which abundant supply might have been expected. That they must have been exhausted was obvious, when noble lords adverted to the prodigious number of men raised in a very short interval. The army of reserve bill raised of the militia alone 50,000. In addition to these, 46,000 were raised for more permanant duty; and, in the whole, in the short space of 15 months, 200,000 individuals were united to the national force. The unavoidable result of this sudden accession, was those excessive bounties, the inevitable consequence of which had been truly stated. It became absolutely necessary to discontinue the expedient of the ballot; it would neither procure the men, nor could the country bear the weight of this species of exaction. Such, then, was the state of the country, and such were the impediments to former plans, at the time when the present bill was, proposed: in fact, the anterior project was no longer operative, and some new; scheme must be adopted. Then this measure was proposed under the following recommendations: 1st, it was to suspend all balloting; 2dly, it was to relieve the parishes and individuals under an insupportable burden; 3dly, it was to raise a body of men, better disciplined, and in greater number, than under the former expedient. It was by these tests the bill ought to be examined. If it had answered any, much more if it had fulfilled all these purposes, ministers would be entitled to credit for having proposed this mode for the benefit of the service, He could by no means agree with a noble lord (King) who represented this bill as opposed to the sentiments of the coun-
489
490
491
Earl Spencer
rose. He began by assuring their lordships, that he never since his first entrance into parliament rose with more real satisfaction to give his support to any motion, than that which had this night been made by his noble friend for the repeal of this act. He felt himself particularly easy in saying this, because he was certain it must be in the recollection of every noble lord who was present, when he delivered his sentiments on this bill in its passage through the house in the course Of the last session, that the arguments he had used against the bill then, had since been, every one of them, found to be verified. No bill had ever been introduced into either house of parliament with a more pompous and magnificent display of the benefits to be derived from it, and the energies it was to put in force. It was brought forward on the spur of what was said to be a most important occasion, when the country was allowed to be in the most immediate and imminent danger of an invasion, and, indeed, so much so, that a month, a day, or even an hour was not to be lost in adopting measures for the most speedy and effectual means of increasing the army of the country, and that part of it in particular, which is called the dispose able force. At that moment, his lordship said, he and other noble friends of his, with whom he acted, saw on the first fair and mature consideration of its provisions, that so far from answering the important purposes for
492
493
494
495
Lord Sidmouth
rose, not, he said, to gratify the curiosity of the noble lord who had just sat down; but to discharge a public duty, by delivering his sentiments on the present question. Before he should state the grounds of his opinion, he begged to repeat some of the reasons and sentiments that had been advanced by the noble Earl near him. If he had abandoned any sentiments advanced" on any public measure, then the anticipated charge of the noble earl who had just sat down might apply. But as he bad ever, regulated his public conduct by
496
497
498
499
The Duke of Clarence,
expressed his satisfaction that the noble viscount had addressed their ldps. before him. In many of the sentiments which had been delivered by the noble viscount, he was happy to express his concurrence, as they corresponded perfectly with his own. Whatever he should say in that house, he wished to be considered as coming from a peer of parliament, for in no other respect would lie enter that house. He was extremely anxious to hear what the noble viscount had to say on this bill, a bill which had been so unequivocally condemned by many noble lords who had acted with him, and from one of whom (the chancellor of the duchy of Lancaster) he had heard a most eloquent speech in exposure of it. Indeed, all the late govt. were unanimous in exposing it. He heartily coincided with the noble viscount in the encomiums he had pronounced upon that patriotic spirit which produced the volunteer force. He was himself a volunteer officer, and he would admit that a very great force had been raised. There was an obvious inconsistency in the administration; a great
500
501
Lord Mulgrave
said, he should abstain from entering at large, or into any detail, in the observations which he meant to submit to their lordships. He had in no degree changed his sentiments since last year; he was still of the same opinion as then. He knew of but three modes of attaining a military force; 1st, by the exercise of absolute compulsion or conscription, for enforcing personal service; 2nd, by the ballot allowing a substitution for personal service; 3d, by ordinary recruiting. The first mode was unconstitutional and inconsistent with the habits, the manners, and the feelings of a free people, and therefore could not be attempted in this country. The second had been resorted to with considerable effect in the Army of Reserve Act. This was no doubt a measure of rigour, but not of idle or tyrannical rigour, for it left the party affected by the ballot, at liberty to provide a substitute by a pecuniary sacrifice. When this measure had produced all that could be expected from it, an act for suspending it in its progress passed the house, when the change took place in the administration. Another bill was then brought in for raising men and money, but on a more equitable principle. By the provisions of the Army of Reserve Act, if the individual would not serve personally, the tax fell upon him, and it was impossible to argue against the penalty, unless a compulsory power was resorted, to, to procure personal service. The present
502
503
504
Lord Grenville
observed, that the contradictory language and conduct of a noble viscount (Sidmouth) and his noble friend who had just sat down, had already been most perspicuously pointed out by a noble friend of his in the course of the debate, if that were material to shew the inconsistent grounds upon which those noble lords thought proper to resist the motion before the house. But for himself, he declined to dwell upon such inconsistencies. He never was fond to argue public measures upon references to the character or motives of any individuals who might oppose or second such measures. With respect to the motives of his noble friend (Mulgrave), he had no doubt that he was satisfied of the rectitude of the motives which actuated his conduct, and so no doubt was the noble viscount (Sidmouth) also, although the ground he stated for the vote he announced his intention of giving upon this question was rather singular, and one of which he never could persuade himself to approve. He could not say with the noble viscount, that although he, always disapproved of the bill, he should still agree to let it go on, and for what purpose? Why, that if ft failed of its military object, the penalties should be enforced, which penalties, notwithstanding, the noble viscount professed to dislike. There was another reason also which the noble viscount mentioned to justify his resistance to the motion, which struck his mind to be still more singular than the former; namely, that although he considered the bill originally inefficient, and still retained the same opinion, yet that as parliament had acceded to it, it would not be respectful to parliament to repeal it so soon after its enactment, without affording it a farther trial. Now, instead of its being very respectful to parliament, to continue such a measure, so unproductive in men, and so unjust, if productive, in money, he should feel it to be quite the contrary, and a glaring mark of indifference to public security at this dan-
505
506
507
508
509
510
511
Lord Melville
said, that what he had to submit to their lordships should certainly be comprehended within a very narrow compass, for one expression of his noble friend who had lately sat down comprehended all he had to say. The noble lord spoke with great propriety when he said the military service of the country called for a-clear and decisive system of policy: that was his opinion also. It was extremely true that the exigency of the country was more than the former force of it was equal to, and this made govt. proceed on a larger scale, than they had formerly done with regard to its military strength; but he was of opinion it would be better to adhere to one system until it had been fairly tried, rather than abolish it for the sake of making an experiment upon another. We had tried a large supplemental militia, and that was attended with the most salutary consequences; but the important part of it was that of establishing a great defensive force, and then the measure was wise, upon consideration of the apprehension of invasion, and that we had no continental application for our military force; we wanted only security at home, for which purpose we had thus a powerful army, and the beneficial effects of it were felt. Next to this came the Army of Reserve Act, for which he took no merit, for he was not in his majesty's councils when it was brought forward, but without exception the Army of Reserve Act appeared to him to be one of the best means that could have been devised, and it proved the truth of the proposition, that men once introduced into military habits, either from the love of glory or
512
513
514
The Earl of Fife
said a few words in support of the motion, but in so low a tone of voice, that we could not distinctly hear his lordship.
Lord Hawkesbury
said, that even those who saw objections to the act which it was now proposed to repeal, in the first in-
515
516
517
The Earl of Buckinghamshire
said, he was free to confess that he never had expected the present measure to be very efficient, nor did he think it had turned out so; notwithstanding that opinion, he would never bring himself to vote for its repeal, until it had had a fair trial, and unless something that appeared better was proposed to be substituted in its place. He did not think this measure could ever be said to have had a fair trial, until the penalties incurred by the parishes had been actually levied. It was not that he wanted to commute for penalties the service required, nor to raise an additional tax upon that pretence, but he thought that parliament was bound to uphold the measure, by the strict enforcement of the penalties, before the effect of it could be calculated, It was not improbable that there had been a great deal of indifference and neglect, from the supposition that these penalties would not be levied. Even when the measure should have had its fair trial, and supposing it should not be found as efficient as was expected, he
518
The Lord Chancellor
left the Woolsack, and took a view of the question. He compared the present act with that by which the army of reserve had been raised, and he contended, that the former followed up the spirit of the latter, moderating its operation because it was no longer necessary to apply it with so much energy. The principle of the army of reserve act was to raise men by imposing pecuniary penalties on parishes; the present bill did the same in a much less degree, because the army of reserve act had done all that could be desired from it. Indeed, a more useful measure, he was satisfied, never had obtained his concurrence; and happy he was to reflect, that all the military measures of the incapable and imbecile ministry, as it was called, had his most cordial and conscientious approbation. If the present act was repealed, it would only have the effect indeed, to repeal the only new military measure of the present cabinet, and to revive the army of reserve act, that reprobated measure of the incapable administration. He contended that the bill had not had a fair trial, for how could it be expected, that after bounties had been so high as 60l. and 701. men would all at once be found for 12l.? nor could they be found, if it was understood that the present act was to be repealed, and new measures, or the old, under which bounties had been so high, were again to be resorted to. He begged it to be understood, that he entirely concurred in thinking, that the pecuniary penalties should be inforced, if not, that would be an argument with him for repealing the act. As to other topics that had been dwelt upon that night, he thought it did not become him to say any thing. Every noble lord was the only judge of the him of conduct it appeared to him right to pursue; but still if there appeared any great inconsistency or change in the sentiments and opinions of any one member of that house, it was equally competent to any other noble lord to advert upon this inconsistency, and oppose the authority of the same noble lord, in his conduct at another time, to the authority of the opinion which he now expressed.
Earl Darnley
made a short reply, in which he denied any intention of exciting
519
For Earl Darnley's motion
45
Against it
113
Majority against the motion,
68
List of the Minority.
Duke of Clarence
Earl Darnley
Duke of Norfolk
Earl St. Vincent
Duke of Bedford
Earl of Cassilis
Marquis of Buckingham
Earl Stair
Marquis of Bute
Earl of Fife
Maiquis of Lansdowne
Viscount Maynard
Marquis of Headfort
Lord De Clifford
Earl of Derby
Lord St. John of Kelsoe
Earl of Carlisle
Lord Say and Sele
Earl Fitzwilliam
Lord Bessborough
Earl of Suffolk
Lord King
Earl of Berkeley
Lord Montfort
Earl of Thanet
Lord Foley
Earl of Leicester
Lord Stawell
Earl of Albemarle
Lord Grantley
Earl Spencer
Lord Rawdon
Earl of Peterborough
Lord Grenville
Earl Cholmondeley
Lord Dundas
Earl of Guilford
Lord Yarborough
Barf Cowper
Lord Kenyon
520
Earl of Tankerville
Lord Carysfort
Earl of Carnarvon
Lord Hutchinson
Earl Fortescue
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Friday, February 15, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Baker took the oaths and his seat for Hertfordshire. On the motion of Mr. Wallace it was ordered, that Dr. Hall, of Catherine Hall, Oxford, be desired to preach before the house on the 20th inst. the Fast Day.—Mr. Rose presented accounts of the extra ordinaries of the army, from the 25th Dec. 1803, to the 25th Dec. 1805.—Sir J. Newport moved, that there be laid before the house, accounts of all pensions on the Irish Establishment, granted since 1st Jan. 1804, dawn as far as the same could be made out. Ordered.—A message from the lords acquainted the house, that their lordships had agreed to the exchequer bills bill, the commissioners for the assessed taxes bill, and the qualification indemnity bill.—Mr. May presented a petition from the retail importers of Belfast, praying a repeal of the duty of 61. per cent, on all goods imported in packages, under a certain size; and moved that it should lie on the table; which, after a few observations from Mr. Foster and Mr. Ker, was ordered.;—Mr. May presented a similar petition from the wholesale merchants of Belfast; which, after a few words in support of it from Mr. Ker, was also ordered to lie on the table. Mr. May then gave notice, that on Friday he would move for a repeal of this tax. On the motion of Mr. Huskisson it was ordered, that accounts should be laid before the house of the distribution of the money granted by an act of last Session enabling his majesty to raise 2,500,000
l.
[SURPLUS OF THE CONSOLIDATED FUND].
Mr. Johnstone
said, he was embarrassed how to form a judgment on the supplies of the year without having the accounts of the preceding year before him, of which the house were in possession of only a part. On looking at the disposition paper, an alarming fact struck him: the surplus of the Consolidated Fund had been estimated as likely to amount, by the 5th of April, to 5 millions; now it appeared
521
Mr. Huskisson
said, the remaining accounts which the hon. gent. had expressed his desire to see, should be laid on the table as soon as possible. With respect to the surplus of the Consolidated Fund, though certainly some deficiency did exist, yet he did not believe it wm any thing near so much as apprehended by the hon. gent. some duties which were yet to be paid from the East India Company would reduce it; and besides, he was not sure that the calculation which the hon. gent. founded on the surplus of the fund being, on the 14th of Feb. but 1,200,000l. was not erroneous, as it was likely that that was its amount on the 5th of Jan. With regard to the other part of the hon. gent.'s inquiry, he informed him, that it was intended to issue Exchequer bills, to replace those of last year, to the amount of 6,500,000l.—After some further conversation between Mr. Huskisson and Mr. Johnstone, accounts were ordered to be laid before the house of Exchequer bills outstanding on the 14th of Feb. 1805, that were charged on any of the supplies of the year 1804, distinguishing the acts under which they were issued.
[SLAVE TRADE.]
Mr. Wilberforce
expressed his opinion, that after the close investigation which this subject had undergone last session, and after the sense of the house upon it had been so decidedly taken, it was not necessary to trespass much upon their patience at present, reserving to himself the right of reply, if any objection should unexpectedly be started; he therefore moved, that the house do now resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider the propriety of bringing in a bill for the abolition of the Slave Trade, in a time to be limited.
General Gascoyne
was at a loss to know whether the hon. gent. meant to introduce a bill, exactly similar to that of last session. He might perhaps rind, that the circumstances of the times had induced many of the members to change their opinion on the subject since that period.
522
Sir W. Young
said, he would oppose, in every stage of it, a measure, the very agitation of which, had been productive of irreparable mischief. The hon. gent. seemed to wish to avail himself of the success of his bill in that house in the last session, as a kind of precedent which ought to be followed, and to have it in contemplation to push the affair forward with a rapidity which its importance would not warrant. He called on gentlemen to give the subject complete consideration, to examine all the documents relative to it with the most serious attention, and not to forget that in their decision was implicated a very material branch of the commerce of the country, to which our power in general, and more particularly our naval power, was to be attributed.
Mr. Fuller
said, that so far from the sense of the house being taken on this bill in the last session, the fact was, that the sense of not one-sixth part had been taken.
General Tarleton
stated, that there were in Liverpool alone above 10,000 persons completely engaged in this trade, besides countless numbers who were in some way or other affected and benefited by it. He had received instructions from his constituents to oppose the hon. gent's, intentions with all his power.—The house having resolved itself into a committee,
Mr. Wilberforce
declared his surprise, that it should be insinuated he wished to press the matter with more haste than was consistent with propriety. If gentlemen would refer to the parliamentary journals, they would find that the proceedings were always the same. So far from any undue precipitation, he only meant to propose the first reading of the bill on Monday, and the second about Friday. He should now move, "that leave be given to bring in a bill to abolish the Slave Trade in a time to be limited."—Leave was accordingly given, and the report was received and agreed to.
[IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.]
On the motion of sir Evan Nepean, the house resolved itself into a committee on the bill for continuing the supension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland. The right hon. bart. moved, that the blank left for naming the bill, be filled up with the words "six weeks after the commencement of the next session of parliament."
Lord Henry Petty
rose to oppose the motion of the hon. baronet, and to move that "the first of May" be substituted. As ministers had allowed that there was no pressure of time which urged the imme-
523
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
felt himself obliged to support the original motion. The merits of the question lay in a very narrow compass. All that could be stated in objection to it, had been stated in the ablest manner possible by the noble lord.
524
Mr. C. Wynne
said, he was willing to allow that there had been many cases in which the notoriety was sufficient, without any particular investigation of the circumstances; such, for instance, as the rebellions in 1715, and 1745, when the king sent down a message to the house, which was considered a sufficient ground. In 1803, likewise, when the rebellion in. Ireland was notorious. It was the duty of parliament, before they agreed to so extraordinary a measure, to make strict inquiry, unless they had very strong grounds indeed, such as he had just mentioned.
525
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that that person had been confined by different special acts of parliament, and not by a suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, which did not at that time take place.
Mr. Windham
conceived the amendment of the noble lord not to have been clearly understood, as the objection he made was not perhaps at all, but certainly not so much to the measure itself, as to its being adopted without a previous parliamentary enquiry. The right hon. chancellor of the exchequer had done him the honour to state Ins conduct on a former occasion, when he certainly adopted the measure upon public notoriety, because the danger was present, and staring them in the face; but the right hon. gent. must recollect, that even then he expressed his opinion that an enquiry should first be instituted, but that he was overruled by that right hon. gent. himself, and others, on the ground that the danger was both pressing and notorious. But on no occasion did he say, that this suspension should continue always; for when he supported it on the spur of the moment, his support was founded both upon necessity and notoriety. He had now no ground or information before him, to shew that this measure was bottomed either in one or the other. He now wanted the notoriety, and had reason to think and believe, that since the passing of the act now in force, a great change had taken place in the minds and dispositions of the people of Ireland. Here there was no information brought forward, no danger was made apparent, no necessity shewn, no notoriety established, and yet the house was called upon to pass this act of suspension of the liberties of the people of Ireland, as it were by acclamation, and with no more than twenty-four hours notice. He admitted, as was done by the noble lord who moved the amendment, that the measure might be necessary, but there was no proof of it. There was some reason for it in the former instance; he thought there was reason for it; but the ministers did not think proper to give them they now. If it should be admitted that the enemy having Irish officers, and Irish general, should be a justification of sus-
526
Mr. Martin (of Galway)
said, he should, for one, certainly agree to the noble lord's amendment. If notoriety were sufficient to warrant the suspension, without inquiry, he should say, that notoriety did not exist. He had conversed lately with many gentlemen from Ireland, who concurred in opinion that the measure was not necessary to secure the peace of the country. It had been, indeed, spoken of, as not likely to do harm; but such an infringement of the liberties of a people ought to be proved to be attended with positive good, before it should be adopted. A bill of this description was not to be treated as lightly as a vote of credit. With regard to the secrecy so much contended for, and the danger and inconvenience said to attend enquiry, was there not considerable danger and inconvenience in exposing the affairs of the Bank of England, and yet a committee had been some time ago appointed to investigate and make a report on that subject. Why should the people of Ireland be treated with less ceremony? As to the character of the lord lieutenant and his secretary, it made no legislative ground for so severe a measure as the present. He never knew a lord lieutenant in that country who was not represented as a very amiable man. He never heard of a secretary who was not said to be possessed of the highest talents, and overflowing with humanity and benevolence. But these accounts, coming from a certain description of persons, were not always to be de-
527
Mr. Robert Ward
commented on the arguments made use of by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), at some length, and contrasted them with the sentiments he had expressed on some former occasions, when a measure similar to the present was proposed to the House of Commons. Lord Folkstone here called the hon. and learned gent. to order, on the ground of his allusions being irregular. After some conversation, the hon. member proceeded to observe, that the arguments against the suspension of the Habeas Corpus, drawn from the deficiency of glaring instances, as stated by some hon. members, might be met by an illustration of an opposition of the same nature, which illustration was made by a right hon. gent. a few years back (Mr. Windham) who mentioned the case of the captain of a ship who went on a voyage round the world, and had provided himself with certain ventilators, and other machines of a useful description. "I laid out my money," said the captain, "for nothing, for I have not had a sick man during the whole of my voyage." The hon. gent. then alluded to the miseries which Ireland had suffered, and which had left her in a state of trouble; miseries which could not have been overcome, but by that system of vigour which had been adopted by administration. With respect to the measure now opposed by the hon. gentlemen on the other side, he should not wish to go farther back than the period of the revolution, to shew the manner in which such suspensions had been proposed and received in that house. In the first year of King William III. the deliverer of this country from tyranny, the Habeas Corpus was suspended, without any particular case, or any previous examination before parliament. A message was sent down from the throne, and it was stated, that his majesty's government found it necessary to arrest some suspected persons, but that they were met in their way by the
528
Sir John Newport
observed, that in every instance adduced by the hon. and learned gent. there was either inquiry, or something equivalent to it; there was some message from the king, or some communication in the speech from the throne. Now there was nothing relative to this subject in the speech from the throne, and the speech on the address, which was generally supposed to be the production of his majesty's ministers, stated Ireland to be tranquil. How then could it be said, after so short a lapse of time, that there was so notorious a spirit of rebellion as to preclude inquiry? The Habeas Corpus Act having been restored since the rebellion of 1798, he considered it now as suspended
de novo,
res integra;
Mr. Fox
said, that he did net rise for the purpose of now entering into the merits of this question, but to beg the hon. and
529
Mr. Macnaghten
said, that the dangers of Ireland had not been mentioned in the speech from the throne, on account of the notoriety of the case, and that the object was to prevent the recurrence of the horrors of 1798 and 1803. If this act had been in force in 1803, lord Kilwarden would not have been murdered. Certainly the loyal subjects had increased in Ireland, but that, he said, was no reason why they should be taken less care of now than formerly; but who was prepared to say, that there were, no jacobins there, ready to help the cause of France? He cautioned the house against the opinions of such as would make such a desperate assertion. The jacobins who destroyed the French monarchy were not very numerous, nor were they in Dublin when they murdered the lord chief justice, and many others of his majesty's subjects. They might still do great mischief, if that house did not pass this bill, which the loyalists of Ireland expected. It was a serious measure, but the loyal part of the people were not safe without it. He saw no necessity for an enquiry.
Mr. Bagwell
argued in favour of the bill, from the notoriety of the necessity, especially in his part of the country, where a gentleman could not let a farm to anew tenant without the chance of his being exposed to death, or some severe calamity. Numerous atrocities were committed, yet people dare not come forward to detect and punish the perpetrators. It was a melancholy consideration, that it became necessary to put a number of persons out of the pale of the constitution; but the only question was, whether it should be the loyal or the disloyal part of the nation?
Lord De Blaquiere
supported the suspension. He said if me notoriety was denied, the country was lost; he did not see how we could get on. He complimented the talents of the noble lord who moved the amendment, and praised his parliamentary management, in avoiding the meeting it on its original grounds. He said that inquiry would defeat the object of the measure. Make out such a case as gentlemen on the other side, desire, and you defeat the object of the bill. Tell a rogue you know his tricks and his haunts, and it is
530
Mr. Kinnaird
felt it impossible to sit silent and hear the intentions of his noble friend who moved the amendment, misrepresented as they had been. He refuted the charge of parliamentary management conveyed in the shape of a compliment. The intention of his noble friend was not to refuse what govt. had asked, but only to procure good and sufficient reasons for its necessity. It was rather an extraordi-
531
Lord De Blaquiere
did not consider it as any reproach upon the noble lord to compliment him for his parliamentary management.
Dr. Duigenan
said, the hon. gent. had mistaken the object of the noble lord's story, which was to shew, that Irish witnesses could not come with safety to London to give information before a committee. Assassinations similar to this were very common in Ireland. The suspension of the Habeas Corpus could not prevent such outrages; but it certainly rendered them less frequent. He had resided in Ireland from his youth, and he must of course know its situation better than the hon. gent. opposite; he took leave to say also, that he had a little more regard for it. The county of Waterford was notoriously disturbed, as was evident from the resolutions of the magistrates at a county meeting, at which the sheriff, a respectable member of that house, presided. An adjoining county also (Tipperary), the representative of which was present, was in servants a state, that the houses of all loyal men which had not a number of servants, or a large family to defend them, were broken open and robbed of their arms, and these arms were certainly not intended for shooting snipes. The county of Carlow was the scene of nocturnal meetings, and so was the county of Limerick, the representative of which was also present. The city of Dublin itself was under the necessity of being patrolled every night from the multitude of dangerous conspiracies and assassination plots; centinels were shot dead and maimed on their stands, and it was known that even committees were formed for systematising assassination. On all these grounds he thought the suspension indispensably necessary. We might truly say,
incedimus perignes suppositos cineri doloso.
Mr. May
declared his conviction of the general Royalty of the North of Ireland; but in the South and West disaffection certainly existed. The suspension was necessa-
532
Lord Temple
said he had one word to offer in answer to the hon. gent. who had spoke last but one, and a little to the last, both of whom had pronounced a libel on the majority of the people of Ireland, a libel which, came particularly ill from the mouth of any one connected with that country. He protested against the principles they maintained, and against the libel they had thrown out. He protested also against the doctrine, that because he and his hon. friends did not represent Ireland, they could hot feel for that country as warmly as the hon. gent. (Dr. Duigenan). This was a charge of deficiency not only in the duty they owed to all the Empire, but a direct charge that they did not pay the same attention to particular parts of it which was given by the persons representing these parts. He was sure it was not so, and he was happy the hon. gent. was not supported in his insinuations by his brethren on that side of the house. If he and his hon. friends had not a right to interfere in the concerns of Ireland, the hon. gent. must allow the principle a reciprocal force. He would here call to the recollection of the hon. gent. the instance of the Additional Force bill of the last session, which was enacted for England, contrary to the sense of the majority of the English members, and on which the representatives of Ireland, and he believed among them the hon. gent. had claimed and exercised a full right of giving their votes. This by the bye. Now for the hon. gent.'s arguments. The hon. gent. in answer to the alledged want of notoriety, cited a list of atrocities which appeared to astonish those in favour of the measure, as much as those who opposed it. It would be as well, when the hon. gent. should again be disposed to indulge the house with the recital of such a catalogue, if he would
533
Mr. May
in explanation said, he allowed the loyalty of the north, but disaffection existed in the south. The lower class of the people were ready to rise at any time the appearance of a French force presented the opportunity, and it was necessary to keep them down with a strong hand; he did not mean to asperse the catholic gentlemen, who were good, loyal, and faithful subjects, but a low multitude, headed by as low and ill educated a clergy.
Dr. Duigenan
said, he had not denied the right of the English gentlemen to interfere in the concerns of Ireland; he had said no such thing. He only contended, that he was better acquainted with the state of Ireland.
Lord Temple
said, that was the obvious deduction from the hon. gent.'s arguments, lie did not wish to give the house so bad an entertainment as a discussion between two gentlemen, as to the fact in what had so recently occurred; but he believed he was in the recollection of the house, when he described the hon. gent. as representing that the English members had not the same regard for Ireland that he had. If he was wrong, the house would correct him; and he was the more particular as to the expression, as he would draw this line of distinction upon it, that if all members, from all parts of the empire, had not the same regard for every part, they were not fit to sit together.
Mr. Hutchinson
lamented that the li-
534
Lord H. Petty
begged leave to set himself right from some misunderstandings. He did not say, that notoriety was no ground, but that it should be accompanied with great and imminent danger. Notoriety was too general and vague a term to be in itself sufficient; and if ever there was a doubt how indecisive this term was, the various meanings that had been affixed to it this night afforded the strongest exemplification of it. The representations of Ireland by the gentlemen of that country were completely at variance. It was evident from this, how dangerous it was for parliament to lend itself to mere representations; and, for himself, when the evidence was doubtful, he preferred that which went to maintain the people in the enjoyment of their liberties to that which went to deprive them of them.—The question being now put, there appeared,
For the original motion,
159
For the amendment,
54
Majority,
105
List of the Minority.
Adair, R.
Dundas, Hon. G. H. L.
Bagenel, Walter
Dundas, Hon. C. L.
Barclay, George
Fitzpatrick, Hon R.
Brooke, Charles
Folkestone, Viscount
Byng, George
Fox, Hon. C. J.
Calcraft, John
Francis, Philip
Cavendish, Lord G.
Geary, Sir William
Cavendish, W.
Grey, Hon. Charles
Coombe, H. C.
Hamilton, Lord A.
Cooke, Bryan
Hippesley, Sir J. C.
Courtenay, John
Jekyll, Joseph
Creevey, Thomas
Johnstone, George
Daley, D. Bowes
Kinnaird, Hon. C.
Daivson, Richard
Latouche, R.
535
Latouche, John, jun.
Paxton, Sir R.
Lawley, Sir R.
Proby, Viscount
Lemon, Sir. W.
Raine, Jonathan
Haddocks, W. A.
St. John, Hon. St A.
Moore, P.
Smith, Wm.
Morpeth, Viscount
Spencer, Lord. R.
North, Dudley
Symonds, T. P.
Newport, Sir John
Temple, Earl
Ord, William
Ward, Hon. J. W.
Osborne, Lord F.
Whitbread, S.
Ossulston, Lord
Windham, Rt. H. W.
Pelham, Hon. C. A.
Wynne, C. W. W.
Petty, Lord Henry
Young, Sir W.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 18, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Counsel were heard at some length relative to the Scots Appeal, Bannerman
v.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.]—
Lord Grenville
said, he had to call the attention of their lordships to a subject of very serious and weighty importance, namely, the matters alleged in charge against one of his majesty's judges in Ireland, Mr. Justice Fox, now under their lordships' consideration. He certainly should have come forward, as he now intended to do, when the subject was last under discussion, were he not prevented from attending by severe indisposition. The case was certainly of a novel description in that house, and, in every point. of view, whether as effecting the individual, the public, the character of that house, and the consideration of its being to form a precedent with respect to the exercise of the highest of all their functions, one of the greatest importance, and it behoved them lo proceed to its consideration in the most serious and deliberate manner. On this head, lie felt it his duty to submit to their lordships his ideas of what was proper and fitting to be done upon the occasion. He did not know that he should have to close what he had to say with, any regular motion. What he should offer, he had ra-
536
537
Lord Hawkesbury
said, he differed widely in opinion from the noble baron, in what he had advanced upon the subject,
538
prima facie
539
The Earl of Carlisle
made a few observations in support of what had fallen from his noble friend. He pressed the consideration, that their lordships, in the mode proposed, would have to proceed as a grand jury, in an
exparte
The Lord Chancellor
quitted the woolsack, and directed his observations chiefly to the situation in which the question stood and the most eligible mode of proceeding In point of form; he declined delivering his sentiments upon the subject till a future opportunity, but he seemed to prefer proceeding with the investigation, as the house had already determined. There was one point which had transpired in the course of that evening's discussion which he was happy to observe, and for which he had to express his thanks to noble lords; nay, even his gratitude; namely, the apparent disposition to act upon the opportunities which the constitution afforded them, of having recourse to the assistance, when necessary, of the law lords, and to render their attendance effectual.
540
Lord Grenville
spoke in explanation, and expressed his astonishment at the way in which the noble secretary of state seemed to consider what had fallen from him. He thought his conduct, on the occasion, required no apology; it was the bounden duty of every member of that house to come forward and otter his opinion, in every stage of a business, and on every opportunity, as to what he thought might' best favour the ends of public justice. He was prevented by indisposition from attending when the subject was last discussed. No considerations of delay or inconvenience should militate against the paramount principles and more important ends of public justice. They should consider the novelty of the case before them, and that they were about to set a precedent to future ages, on a point of the last importance in the exercise of all their functions.
Lord Hawkesbury
explained. As far as his recollection served him, he had said nothing which ought to induce astonishment on the part of the noble baron; he regretted the cause of his inability to attend when the subject was last discussed; but a considerable interval had since elapsed, in which the noble lord had an opportunity of coming forward. He had so far conceded as to agree to the noble lord's proposition in the first instance, but he had to deprecate all unnecessary delays in the investigation of the case.
The Duke of Clarence
expressed his satisfaction at what had fallen from the noble lord who had opened the discussion; but not having attended the former discussion upon the subject, he confessed himself rather at a loss to know the precise situation in which the case then stood, and begged any noble and learned lord present would inform him.
The Lord Chancellor
quitted the woolsack, and explained generally to his R. H, that the object of the committee, which had been ordered to sit, was to investigate the truth of matters alleged, so far as to ascertain whether a sufficient ground appeared to warrant their lordships in calling upon the accused to answer, or to entertain a motion for an address upon the occasion. The witnesses were to be examined upon oath before the committee, as to the truth of matters alleged, but to what extent it was for the committee to determine.—The question was then put upon Lord Grenville's motion, which was accordingly ordered,
541
[IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.]—
Lord King
called to the recollection of their lordships what had fallen from him on a former evening, relative to the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, and the great discretionary power vested in the crown in consequence. It being in agitation to renew the measure, as one of very questionable importance, he thought that adequate reasons should be assigned for it. With that view, he called for the information which was stated in his motion on a former night. He expressed his hope that the noble secretary of state had, upon further consideration, altered his opinion upon the point, and would agree to the production of the information required. His lordship then proposed his motion, similar lo that offered on a former night; the leading point was, "that an account of the conditions on which such persons as were liberated from confinement under the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act, were discharged, be laid before the house."
Lord Hawkesbury
replied, that the more he had considered the point, the more confirmed he was in his objections to such a proceeding. The noble secretary then repeated his observations on the former occasion, as to the dangerous tendency, in various points of view, of making the disclosure required; this, he thought, so obviously the case, that he did not wish to take up their lordships' time in further descanting upon the subject.
Lord Grenville
could not see any objection to that part of the motion; he thought the condition upon which these persons were discharged was a piece of information which it was necessary, should be laid before parliament, in order that they might see how the powers given by former suspension acts had been used, particularly when they should probably be shortly called upon to renew that suspension. He could not conceive that any mischief could arise from the disclosure of secret information mentioned by the noble secretary of state, as the conditions of their discharge must be known to the persons liberated, and if this part of the motion was refused it would follow that information was granted to those persons who had probably been arrested upon suspicion of treason, which was denied to parliament.
The Marquis of Sligo
declared his entire opposition to that part of the motion,
542
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 18, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
On the motion of sir J. Sinclair, the message of the Lords of the 28th of Jan. requesting the attendance of certain members of that house, was read at the table. The hon. G. L. Cole, and sir J. Stewart, bart. then made au offer of their attendance, with the concurrence of the house. The request of the Lords was then agreed to, and sir J. Stewart was sent to the upper house to acquaint them therewith.—Mr. Francis moved, that there be laid before the house copies of all engagements entered into, and of all correspondence which had taken place between the British government and the Mogul of Delhi, subsequent to the treaty of Bassein, as far as they can be disclosed consistently with the interest of the public service. Ordered.—Accounts of the amount of imports and exports to and from the Isle of Mann, from the 1st Jan. 1798, to the same period in the year current, distinguishing each year, were presented, and ordered to be printed.—The papers which were moved for on a former day, relative to the conduct of Sir Home Popham, were presented, and ordered to be printed for the use of the members of this house.— The quarantine bill was reported and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow. —The Land tax commissioners indemnity bill was read a second time, and ordered to be referred to a committee, on the 18th of March.—Sir C. Pole stated that the 10th report of the commissioners of naval enquiry was incorrect in some particulars; the signatures that were affixed to it were not in the usual form, and some others were omitted. He therefore moved, that the report be withdrawn. Leave was then given, and that document was accordingly taken off the table for the purpose of introducing a copy which was regularly signed. —The following were ordered to be laid on the table, viz. an account of the duties payable upon salt in England and Scotland, for 3 years, ending 5th Jan. 1805; an account of the duties on salt, exported for 3 years, ending the;5th Jan. 1805; an
543
[THE BUDGET.]
The house having resolved itself into a committee of the whole house, to consider further of ways and means for raising the supply granted to his majesty, and the several accounts which had been presented to the house being referred to the said committee,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose and addressed the committee as follows: Mr. Alexander; the first article of supply that has been voted, to which I shall call the attention of the committee, is the supply for the naval service. The total amount of what has been already voted, exclusive of the sum of 390,000l for ordnance sea service, is 14,645,630l. exceeding by 2,600,000l. the amount of what was voted last year for the same service. The excess has arisen from the sum of 1,800,000l. for the expences attending the 20,000 additional seamen voted this year, and for the increase in the extraordinaries and transport service. The next article of supply is the army; there has been already voted under this head, the sum of 10,000,000l. for guards, garrison, militia, & c. I will not detain the committee by going over the different items, but there remain still two articles to be voted, the estimate of the extraordinaries, and of the expences of the volunteer corps; in the latter article there may be some small diminution, but I will take the amount at 1,100,000l. The extraordinaries I calculate to amount to the same as last year, 3,660,000l. These two items, added to the total of ten millions, make an aggregate sum, exclusively of the expence under the same head for Ireland, of 14,778,391l. which is an exceeding beyond tile last year of about 300,100l. For Ireland, under the head of army, there has been already voted the sum of 2,838,000l. To these remain to be voted the sum of 300,000l. and the same sum for the expence of volunteer corps, making the whole amount for Ireland 3,838,506l. The total amount of the votes for the army, therefore, for both countries will be
544
545
546
SUPPLIES.
Navy (exclusive of 390,0001. ordnance sea service)
14,645,630
Army
England
14,178,391
18,616,897
Ireland
3,38,506
Ordnance.
England
4,246,994
4,846,994
Ireland
600,000
Miscellaneous.
England
800,000
1,450,000
Ireland
650,000
39,559,521
Further extraordinary expences
5,000,000
Joint Charge, England and Ireland
44,559,521
Deduct on account of Ireland, as below
5,403,102
39,156,419
Add England separate charges.
East India Company
1,000,000
Deficiency of malt, 1803
320,000
To complete the payment of American awards.
414,000
Deficiency of 5,000,0001. voted as surplus of consolidated fund, to 5th April, 1805.
2,800,000
4,534,000
Total, England.
43,690,419
Deduct on account of Ireland, 2–17ths of the above sum of 44,559,521
5,242,296
Deduct also 2–17ths of 1,366,8511. for civil list and other charges on consolidated fund, not relating to public debt.
160,306
5,403,102
WAYS AND MEANS.
I proceed now, sir, to the Ways and Means for raising this supply; The first article is the duty on mall, and the personal estate duty, 2,750,000l. The next is the surplus of ways and means of the last year. Upon this subject, I think it necessary to give some explanation to the committee. It appears by the disposition paper which has been laid before the-house, that there is a surplus of 123,146l.—a sum of navy debt of upwards of 120;000l. There is also the sum of 931,000l. out of the vote of credit for the naval service, which is to be added to what was not called for by the end of December 1804. But as the demands upon the navy are paid in bills, and as bills encrease with the service, there is a larger sum of bills at the end of the year. The result therefore is, that there is a sum of upwards of 120,000l. not called for; 11,188,000l. was only called for, including the vote of credit of 931,000l. But still of course, though not called for, there is an increase
547
548
WAYS AND MEANS.
Malt and personal estate duties.
£.2,750,000
War Taxes.
8,300,000
New War Taxes.
1,150,000
£.9,450,000
Property Tax
6,300,000
15,750,000
549
Brought over
£.18,500,000
Surplus consolidated fund to 5th April 1806.
4,000,000
Lottery
300,000
Surplus and ways and means, 1804.
1,192,115
Loan
20,000,000
Total ways and means
43,992,115
Total supplies.
43,690,419
This will he a surplus of ways and means beyond the supply of
301,696
THE LOAN.
I have now, sir, to state to the committee the terms upon which the Loan has been negotiated. They are for every 100l. Subscribed to be given to the subscriber 150l. 3 per cents, and 22l. in the reduced, creating 172l. stock for every 100l. borrowed. In the last year 10 millions were raised in the same stock, creating a capital of 1821. stock for each 100l. borrowed we have, therefore, the satisfaction to find, that we have negotiated a loan more than double the amount at a capital less by 10 per cent, than the capital created last year. This circumstance, sir, is to be attributed, first to the prosperity of the Country, and secondly to the firmness of parliament, in consenting to furnish so large a sum within the year, and to the progress of the sinking fund, which is already found to be rapidly repaying the country for the sacrifices it has resolved to make. The interest upon the loan is less by 6s. than the interest upon the last loan. In reference to the price of the stock, I think that 18s. and a fraction beyond the price at which the stocks closed on Saturday is the bonus; to that must be added the usual allowance of five per cent, for discount on prompt payment. But. the bonus if they do not pay at once is about 3l. 1s. 6d. This bargain, I am sure, sir, will be satisfactory to the country; it will also be satisfactory to the country and to the house to hear, what I have learnt since I came into the house, that the bargain is likely to be advantageous to the contractors. We must ail be happy to hear, that what is fair and frugal to the country will he safe and advantageous to the contractors. I shall now proceed to state the additional annual charges that will be created
550
NEW TAXES.
I shall first propose an addition of one penny on each single letter sent by the general post; 2d. upon double letters; and 3d. on treble letters. I am not able to make any precise calculation of the amount of the tax. In the same way I shall propose an addition upon letters carried to the vicinity of London by the two penny post; the addition will be one penny. I shall also suggest the propriety of imposing an additional duty of 2d. On foreign letters. I estimate the produce of this tax at 230,000l.—The next is a tax upon salt, The addition I propose, is to add 5s. a bushel to-the 10s. now paid. On the average of 3 years, I calculate the produce of this tax at the sum of 4.90,000
l.
d.
l.
s.
l.
s.
d.
l.
s.
d.
s.
d.
551
l.
l.
l.
RECAPITULATION.
Total amount of interest on loan, including 3 per cents. created for loyalty holders, and charges of management
£.1,537,192
Taxes proposed to meet the above charges, Post Office
£.230,000
Salt
490,000
Salt on Exportation to Europe
80,000
Pleasure Horses
110,000
Husbandry ditto
320,000
Direct Legacies
200,000
Legacies, charged on Land
100,000
Legacies, Strangers in blood
30,000
£.1,560,000
This, sir, is the whole of the supply and ways and means for the year. I shall not detain the committee any longer at present by trespassing further upon their attention. The view I have taken of the existing state of the revenue, is such as must be sufficient to give the most encouraging view of the public affairs. In the third year of a war, following so quickly a war of such extent, duration, and expenditure, it is in the highest degree gratifying to see, that the general produce of our taxes, the terms on which we have concluded the loan, the general situation of our commerce, and the state of our revenues, keep pace with the highest expectations we could possibly have formed. I have every reason to believe that the country at large is satisfied with the principle which we
552
Mr. Fox.
—It is not my intention, sir, long to detain the committee on the present occasion; but as the right hon. gent. has dwelt on the state of the continent in terms which, if I remained silent, might appear to be unexceptionable, I will trouble the house with a few observations. As far as the general sentiment of the state of the continent reaches, it has my hearty assent; but if it should be sought to pledge us by any thing which has transpired this night, as to the time when aid ought to be given to the continental powers, or any opinion as to continental alliances, in the, existing situation of this country and Europe, and considering too, the difficulty of forming any such, which the right hon. gent, himself has not disguised from usin his speech, I should, sir, for one, and I rather think the committee would be inclined to differ with the right hon. gent. In the mode of bringing this subject forward, which is of a nature unconstitutional, there is a palpable irregularity. Heretofore, every matter of vote was previously brought forward in a committee of supply, whereas, in this instance, it is first agitated in a committee of ways and means. The committee of supply is, however, the only regular place fur such a business: for the house ought, first of all, regularly to decide in a committee on the propriety of the vote, its amount, the time of granting the supply, and all the other preliminary circumstances, of the transaction. And if there was no reason for extraordinary dispatch, all this might as well have happened on the present occasion. From the course that has been taken, we might be supposed to agree to the propriety of the sum; and not even to object to an almost immediate appropria-
553
554
555
The Chancellor of the Exchequer.
—I do not intend, sir, to take up more than a very few moments of the time of the committee doubtless, meant the proposal respecting the vote for 5 millions to be as conditional as it has been spoken of by the hon. gent. I certainly did not mean the house to be pledged to the application of that sum, without full evidence of the policy of such a measure; only when the subject of the general ways and means for the year were before the house, I did think it right to bring before the committee the amount which I apprehended would be necessary, in case certain events should take place. Hat as to the time of applying that sum, the manner of its application, those circumstances of the state of Europe under which it may be wise and politic to apply it, on all, that the house will hereafter decide. Other motives induced me to bring the subject forward now. I thought it necessary, not to defer the vote, because nothing can take place in the state of things that has not taken place, except either the acquiescence or the refusal of the powers of the continent to enter into an alliance with us. On the other hand, it was desirable that the business should be brought forward early in the session, because from the lateness of the period at which this session commenced, if we did not provide for the vote now we should drive it later into April, when near a quarter's interest would unnecessarily attach to it, which, on the fair supposition of the funds being worse than they are now, would occasion a diminution of our means of providing for the general loan. Now, sir, as to the vote in itself, I could only say, that with regard to voting a subsidy of 5 millions for continental purposes, when the day comes for the house to take such a proposal into consideration, gentlemen will do as they please; in the state of the question at this moment they are pledged to nothing. With respect to the observations on the mode in which this subject has been brought forward to night, there is no informality at all in bringing the question forward in the committee of ways and means. It is, most certainly, not unconstitutional. I still agree with the hon. gent, as to his general doctrine, that this and similar votes ought never to be pri-
556
557
Mr. Fox
denied that the arguments for the increase of the property tax were such as applied to all taxes. For when a house tax became too high, a man might avoid it by ceasing to keep any house; but property was a thing by which there could be no limit till the whole was taken. With respect to wine, tea, or any other articles of consumption, taxation might proceed without reserve, because the individual would always have it in his power, as soon as the tax became oppressive and intolerable to him, to desist from them, He therefore preferred taxation of this sort to proceeding on dangerous principles, taking
558
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought it sufficient to quiet the hon gentleman's alarms, to state, that, in order to come to the point he stated, we should continue at war 94 years.
The resolutions were then severally, put and agreed to; the house resumed, and the report was ordered to be received tomorrow.—Adjourned
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 19, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Counsel were heard on the question of the Rous peerage.,—The bills on the table were forwarded in their respective stages.—Lord King repeated his motion for an account of the notes issued by the banks of England and Ireland, within the last year, distinguishing those under 5l.; also, of the amount of the sum remitted by the government of this country to Ireland, for the purpose of facilitating the arrangement respecting the equalisation pf the exchange between the two countries. These motions were agreed to without any opposition.—The house, adjourned to 9 o'clock that evening, for the purpose, of receiving the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension bill from the Commons. At that hour the house again met, when sir E. Nepean, and several other members, of the house of commons, brought up the above bill; which was read a first time, on the motion of lord Hawkesbury. His lordship then gave notice, that he should on Thursday move the second reading and the commitment of the bill; but as it was contrary to the standing orders of the houses carry a bill through two stages in one day
559
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 19, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
At four o'clock a ballot took place for a committee to try and determine the merits of the petition of certain electors of Middlesex, complaining of the conduct of the sheriffs, in erasing their names from the poll lists, and praying to have them added again to the poll, their right of voting having been fully admitted on investigation on the last day of the election. The following are the names of the gentlemen composing the committee: R. Sharp Ainsley, esq.; Sir William Middleton, bart.; Ld. Viscount Fitzharris; J. Spencer Smith, esq.; Lord Viscount Marsham; Sir R. Peele, bart.; Charles Duncombe, esq.; J. Hamlyn Williams, esq.; Charles Mordaunt, esq.; David Clephaue, esq.; C. M. Ormsby, esq.; Hon. Archibald Acheson; A. H. Eyre, esq.— Nominees: Hon. St. Andrew St. John; Francis Gregor, esq.—Mr. Sturges Bourne presented an account of the quantity of hops grown in Kent and elsewhere during the 4 last years, pursuant to an order of the house; and a person from the excise presented an account of the duties paid thereon. Both accounts were ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Giles moved, that there be laid before the house, an account of the number of effective men that had been added to the force now serving in Great Britain and Ireland, from the 1st of June, 1804, to the 1st of Jan. 1S05, distinguishing cavalry, infantry, and artillery; and also distinguishing how raised, in what levies, and on what terms. Ordered.—Mr. Brooke, pursuant to notice, moved, that there be laid before the house, an account of the number of Spanish: prisoners now in. this country, distinguishing those who had been taken previous to the declaration of war by Great Britain, on the 12th of Dee. 1804; also distinguishing those who were passengers, and those who were officers or privates in the army or navy of Spain; also, that there be laid be-
560
[IRISH HASBEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.]
Sir Evan Nepean
moved the order of the day for the 3d reading of the Irish Habeas Corpus Suspension bill.
Mr. R. Martin (of Galway)
rose and stated, that it was his intention to propose an amendment. Understanding that the principal ground for passing the bill, without instituting a previous inquiry, was the notoriety that a treasonable disposition existed in certain parts of Ireland, he trusted that he should have the support of those who maintained that such notoriety existed, in the amendment he should propose. To be consistent with themselves they could not withhold their assent to his proposition, which would go directly to the asserting of what they had invariably stated as the true grounds for the suspension.
The Speaker
interrupted the hon. gent. and stated, that the practice of the house was first to read the bill, previous to offering any amendment.
Lord Henry Petty
said, he did not vise to occupy the attention of the house any farther, than by adverting to a precedent for a similar proceeding, quoted by an hon. and learned gent. (Mr. Ward) on a former evening, when he said, that the Habeas Corpus Act had been suspended in 1722, without any inquiry respecting the existence of any necessity for it having been instituted by parliament. Having since had time to examine into the grounds of that assertion, he thought it right to shew, though he did not see the hon. and learned gent, then in his place, that the two cases bore no analogy whatever to each other. At that time at least two-thirds of the king's speech were employed in pointing out the necessity there was for the house adopting such a measure. Even then, after considerable discussion upon the subject, there was,-he believed, the largest minority against it that was ever known in that house. And it was not finally agreed to, until sir R. Walpole, then one of his majesty's principal confidential ministers, had pledged himself that be would shortly lay such facts before parliament as would most fully justify him in having proposed such a measure. The disclosure of these facts, which took place
561
Mr. R. Martin
stated, that it was his intention to embody in the bill the reasons which had been given for passing it. The measure would not be operative in. its effects, unless it were general, and applicable to every part of the united kingdom. As the law stood now, and as it would stand under this bill, persons may come from Ireland to this country, and carry on their machinations with safety against the constitution of that part of the union, To counteract this, he submitted to his majesty's govt. whether it would not be advisable to extend the salutary operation of the bill before them, to Great Britain as well as Ireland. How could the two countries be said to be identified, if martial law was to be established, and the Habeas Corpus Act suspended in one and not in the other? If it was not necessary that the two countries should be identified, he could, conceive no measure so well calculated to give it proof, as the bill-before them. For the purpose of making out sortie sort of justification of the measure, and of affording some supporters of the bill a plausible ground for the vote they, should give, he would propose, that, the preamble of the bill should commence
562
[REPORT OF THE BUDGET.]
Mr. Alexander
brought up the report of the committee of ways and means of yesterday. Several resolutions were read and agreed to without any discussion. Upon the resolution being read, which goes to state the agreement of the house to the levy of an additional 25 per cent, on the property tax,
Mr. Fox
rose, and requested, some explanation of the nature of the exemption from the property tax, allowed, to the holders of the loan. He did not altogether understand it as it was formerly stated.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that it was not strictly an exemption, but a forbearance for a time, till the instalments should he paid up. When the loan was converted into stock, and the first dividend was paid, then it would of course become subject to the tax as well as other property.
Mr. Johnstone
expressed his regret to see so little disposition in the house to examine closely into the subject of these resolutions, which was of so important a nature, that he should not feel that he did his duty, if he passed it over in silence. The house, he was sorry to say, was not put in a state to judge so accurately on the subject as it ought to have been. Certain accounts had been ordered by act of parliament to be annually laid before the house. It was true, that they were not in strictness required to be laid on the table previous to the 25th of March; but since the budget had been brought forward so early this session, it might have been expected that the accounts deluded to should, have been presented in time sufficient to enable the house to examine the subject with the requisite degree of information. We wanted an account of the public income and an account of the disbursements. The distribution paper ought also to have been presented sooner, with an account of the consolidated fund, A confusion also arose from its being stated that the expenditure would be 44 millions, and provision was made only for 35 millions. Then, there was a million for the East India Company.
563
564
Mr. Francis
said a few words upon the subject of the million which was to be paid to the East India Company. This was the second time that parliament was called on to make an advance to them of the same amount; and yet every statement which was made of their finances, declared that they were at present in the most prosperous situation, and held out the most flattering prospect of increasing wealth in future. He would not say, that nothing was now owing by government to the Company; but he could not help remarking, that the 500,0001. which they had covenanted annually to pay the public, was never stated to have been actually so paid but once. But, in fact, there was no parliamentary evidence of the existence of the debt. The house had, indeed, the word of a right hon. gent, that it was so; but that was not a parliamentary ground Upon which they had a right to dispose of the public money; and it was evident to him, that neither the former nor the present sum ought to be paid without a parliamentary inquiry, and a satisfactory proof being given to the house of the existence of the debt. If it was proved that the debt did originally, exist, the house would then have to inquire, whether or no it was liquidated, or nearly liquidated. The Company would then have to give in an account of their stock, and would be obliged to make a deduction according to the state of the account between them and the public. If the statement given in the course of last session was strictly true, and that in reality the Company's debt from the country was neatly liquidated, than the legal consequence ought to be, that the Sum now required to be advanced
565
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
declared himself rather unprepared to give the hon. gent, a satisfactory answer; but he certainly did not propose to vote this sum without reserve, or without subjecting the Company to be called to an account for what may be due from its revenues to this country. The, vote now called for had no relation to, much less did it annul, any prior engagement; but both the hon. gentlemen were mistaken as to the purport off the act of 1793, which enjoined, that, after the Company should pay its dividends and expences, and have a surplus to a certain amount, then out of that surplus, it was to contribute half a million towards the general finances of the country, and be at liberty to apply the remainder to the increase of its dividends. This subject would best be referred to a future discussion, when the state of the East India) finances should be brought before them; but it surely would be allowed, that the Revenue and resources of the Company might be very prosperous, and yet, by the-intervention of two or three unexpected wars, be rendered inapplicable to the aid of the national revenue.
Mr. Johnstone
agreed, that the Company might have a just claim upon the public, but what he complained of was, that after declaring that they had a surplus of a million, instead of paying out of it what they owed to the country, the house should be called upon to discharge an old debt to them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
explained, that the surplus so often mentioned was only stated to arise out of the territorial revenues of the Company, of which parliament had no right to claim any share, until it was brought home by investments, and all the charges on it paid. That indeed might be made the subject of a future claim; but as to the territorial revenue, parliament had no immediate right to interfere with it.
[SALT DUTY BILL.]
Upon the resolution being read which proposes an additional duty upon salt,
Colonel Calcraft
expressed a hope that the right hon. gentleman would reconsider that proposition. At a time when the lower order of the people were peculiarly
566
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had already given the salt tax the fullest consideration, and that he should certainly persist in it, as he was certain it was not liable to the objections which the hon. gentleman who spoke last had urged against it.
Mr. Sheridan
did not rise for the purpose of entering into a debate, but was called upon by the peremptory tone in which the right hon. gent, had declared-his intentions to persevere in the tax. The right hon. gent, had stated his opinion that the tax would produce more than any other he knew of with less pressure; but he could assure that right hon. gent, that no tax could operate so grievously, oppressively, and grindingly, Salt was an article of the most indispensable necessity to the poor. All their provisions of fish, pork, & c. required a considerable quantity of it, and potatoes, now so happily become a general source of food for the poor, were
567
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had but one word to say in reply. He was disposed to pay every respect to the, right hon. gent, to whom the hon. gent, had alluded; and he could not prove that disposition better than by adopting his conduct. The report had been made about 4 years since, when there was no war; and yet while that right hon. gent, continued a member of this house, no motion had been made for the reduction of the duty on salt, or for carrying into effect the report of the committee. He insisted, that both the hon. members who had spoken against this tax were mistaken as to its operation; for, considering how small a proportion fell on the lower orders of the people, he did not think there was a single article of general consumption that could be found better adapted to the purpose of raising a large sum of money with so little, pies-sure and inconvenience to the mass of the people.
Mr. Egerton
said, it always gave him pain to be obliged to say any thing against the taxes proposed for raising the necessary supplies; but, as the representative of the county of Chester, he could not avoid saying that that county would feel the
568
Mr. Kinnaird
said, he had been expecting every moment to see some member from the North follow the patriotic example of the hon. gent, who had just sat down. As none of those hon. gent, however, had yet thought proper to rise, he would take the liberty of taking that duty on himself. The North in general, and the Highland* of Scotland in particular, that depended so much on their fisheries, would be considerable sufferers from this rise in the duty on an article so essential to the fisheries. The drawback he would allow removed in a considerable degree that objection; but there were many instances in which the drawback could not be easily obtained, particularly by such as employed the salt for their own use only. He contended that the exhorbitant rise of this article was every way impolitic, and believed that it would add considerably to the discontent of the lower orders, against the war in which we had engaged.
Mr. Rose
argued, that the drawback was a complete answer to every objection that could be drawn from the fisheries against this measure. The additional tax, in fact, was calculated to operate rather as a bounty, as it increased the amount of the advantage the fisheries already enjoyed over others. In regard to the injury individuals might sustain from having speculated in this article without receiving any previous notice of the measure now in question, he did not think much was to be apprehend* ed. In Hampshire, the county with which he was perhaps best acquainted, he was not aware that any such speculation bad taken place, or that any Lad consequences would result from it. He denied that it was a duty, the collection of which was attended with any extraordinary charges. The charge, he stated, did not amount to above 20,000l. and that therefore the duty was collected for not more than 2 per cent. This additional duty besides, he added, would be attended with no additional charge, as the expence attending the collection of the present duty would not be increased by its rise.
569
Colonel Calcraft
stated, in explanation, that according to the report of the committee in 1801, the collection of the salt duty was attended with an expence of 100,000l. a year. Since that period perhaps the duty might have been collected at less; but if they might trust the report of that committee, the annual charge of that duty was as he had stated it up to the period of that report.
Mr. Johnstone
allowed that the salt employed in the fisheries was free of duty, but contended that there were so many difficulties and impediments thrown in the way, that it was often difficult to get at the drawback.
[HORSE DUTY BILL.]
Sir Robert Buxton
opposed the tax on horses employed in husbandry; he thought it founded on impolicy, and injustice. On impolicy, because it would operate to the great detriment of a branch of our national industry, of all others the most essential to our well-being as a state; on injustice, because it would bear unequally on the subject, nay, that it would operate on only one class of people, the farmers of the kingdom. Instead of laying an additional fax of this sort, why did not gentlemen give up their privilege of franking, which would shew the people that the members of the House of Commons were ready to make sacrifices in their turn. The hon. bart. deprecated the idea of the war having excited disgust among the public. He believed there never was a war, the necessity and justice of which were more universally felt and acknowledged,
Mr. Windham
disagreed with the hon. bart. on this point, and hoped the house did not stand so low in the estimation of the public as to be obliged to prove its disinterestedness by a paltry sacrifice of this nature, which would be of no serious importance to the revenue. In fact, this privilege of members was to themselves a mere feather in their cap; a thing that was pleasant to them, as giving them a power of conferring small favours, and; as had been before observed, was almost the only little privilege that belonged to them, as members, which was independent of the favour of ministers. But with respect to the public, this privilege was important. It occasioned a much greater intercourse between the members and their constituents than there would otherwise be, and therefore contributed to give them more information of the wishes and; true interests of the public. This was not
570
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
supported the expediency of the privilege of franking, but not altogether for the reasons given by the right hon. gent, who spoke last. The privilege was one that afforded a very great accommodation to the public. It enabled the members to carry on the very important business of their constituents, and frequently they must have various and extensive transactions to discuss. Hence the privilege was not only a distinction, but a most useful, if hot indispensable appendage to the function of a legislator. As to the saving that could accrue from the abrogation of the privilege, that again was, in the view of the subject of revenue, the least considerable in the world; for it would not amount to more than 40,000l. a year. He did not, however, by any means wish to tax agriculture heavily; and the tax under consideration had no such tendency. No man would think that arable farms would, by this increase of seven shillings and six-pence on the tax on horses used in husbandry, be taxed so as to injure agriculture, or induce the farmer or landowner to discontinue employing all the capital he now employed in arable farms. He agreed also with the right hon. gent, that no such mark of disinterestedness was required of them by the country. The fact was, that in the whole history of parliament, there never was a time when so great a proportion of the taxes were thrown on the higher orders of the community.
Sir Robert Buxton,
was ready to give the right hon. gent, every credit for the disposition he had always shewn to relieve the lower orders from the weight of the burdens of the state.
Mr. H. Lascelles
hoped the right hon. gent, would take some further time to consider on some of-these taxes. He agreed with the hon. bart. who had just sat down, as to the duty on horses used in agriculture, and, that it would prove a great check to it. He-referred to what passed last session
571
Mr. Fuller,
in reference to the tax on property, mentioned the case of one who should have much underwood, but which would not be in a yielding state for 14 years to come; now the present tax would attach on that kind of property, he apprehended, as much as if it was at this moment vendible, or as if it yielded a profit.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that the tax would only attach on property mow convertible to its uses; so that the underwood, which would not be fit to cut these 14 years, would for that period not be liable to the tax.—The other resolutions were now put, agreed to, and bills ordered.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 21, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The bills upon the table were forwarded in their several stages. Among these, the Greenland whale fishery and the loyalty loan bills, went through committees of the whole house, and were severally reported.—Mr. Alcock, from the commissioners of the Thames navigation, presented a statement of the receipts and disbursements of that corporation, during the year 1804 — It was ordered, on the motion of the bishop of Oxford, that the thanks of the house be given to the lord bishop of Rochester, for the excellent sermon preached by his lordship before the house yesterday, in the collegiate, church of Westminster.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.]
The Duke of Clwrence
addressed their lordships on the subject of the state of their proceedings with respect to the charges against the above judicial character. It was one, viewing the case in its different points of view, of such importance as he felt him-self called upon to deliver his sentiments upon it. The first consideration that presented itself, his royal highness observed, was, that their lordskips, the highest tribunal in the world, were about to exercise the functions in the case before them, to set a precedent for the conduct of future ages. God forbid! therefore, that any party views or considerations should enter into its investigation. Of the individual in
572
573
The Earl of Limerick
observed, that on the present occasion, of the great importance of which he was fully aware, he felt no sort of bias whatever in his mind: for his own part, he had no knowledge of the learned person against whom the complaint was made, or of the causes of complaint against him. He therefore came to the consideration of the question before their lordships, with a mind perfectly free and unbiassed. With respect to the proposition of the royal duke, though he felt regret at being obliged to differ on any point, from that illustrious personage, it was one which, on his own view of the case, lie entirely disapproved of. Though he was divested of ail personal consideration with regard to Mr. justice Fox, yet he could not discharge from his mind all considerations of his case, as an individual, labouring as he must, after what had passed in their lordships' house, under a certain degree of imputation, which a reference to his public character certainly enhanced. He must deem any proposition, tending to delay, or to retain him in his present very disadvantageous situation, as rather hard. That the learned judge was placed in such a situation as he alluded to must be obvious, when it was considered that a noble member of that house, of high character, distinguished abilities, and commanding eloquence, had come forward as he had done, and whom everyone must think would not have so come forward, unless he felt himself imperiously called upon by a sense of his public duty. That noble person had, in an address to their lordships, equal in point of eloquence and animation to any ever delivered in that house, twice come forward with Specific charges' against the learned judge, and in consequence, it must be supposed that a degree of doubt at best must attach to the character of the learned person, until such charges were disposed of. This situation must be ren-
574
The Earl of Carlisle
expressed his difference in opinion, in certain points of the case, from the noble earl who had just sat down. Though he was certain their objects, namely those of public and individual justice, were exactly the same thing. To adopt the proposition recommended by the illustrious personage would, even in point of expedition, be preferable. The suspension of the proceedings in that house, for six weeks, would, on the other hand, involve no surrender or abandonment of any of the essential rights or privileges of that house. But it would certainly produce a most essential benefit. The intended mode of proceeding would, on the other band, involve the greatest difficulties, one of which was, the probability of their having to appear in a double capacity; first, in that of
575
The Earl of Westmoreland
observed, that viewing the question as he did, the real merits of which lay in a narrow compass, lie should give his negative to the propositoin of the illustrious personage. He deprecated every thing that tended to delay. Their lordships would recollect, that the case stood over since the last session, and that the parties on both sides had been summoned. His lordship adverted to the provisions of the acts by which the judges were placed in their present situations, and conceived the case to be such on the part of the house, as it would have been before these acts passed, with his majesty's confidential advisers, with respect to a question for the removal of one of the judges. That the proposition could be more expeditiously, as well as more regularly or constitutionally acted upon, by their lordships, he had no doubt. The advantages which their lordships possessed in that respect, their power of administering oaths, and recurring to legal assistance in particular, were many and obvious. The idea so much dwelt upon, of the possibility of a subsequent impeachment by the commons, he considered as no objection at all; the proceedings would go upon different matters of charge, and their lordships could therefore be no way pledged by any prior act of theirs. The case before the house would, be conceived, only lead to a question of renewal; the consideration of subsequent proceeding and impeachment would hot tend to embarrass their situation, and as to the particular case under consideration, he never heard of one that more loudly called for an immediate proceeding upon it. He conceived, circumstanced as the house was, referring to what had already taken place, the situation of the individual, and the steps which had been taken, they could hardly have an option upon the case; and
576
Lord Auckland
observed, that were it possible to tread back the steps they had taken in the business, it would be preferable the matter should originate in the other house of parliament. But their lordships were not now in such a predicament, and they should bear in mind how the case stood; the matter was before them 7 or 8 months, and a committee appointed to investigate its merits to a certain, extent: this, though in the nature of an ex parte examination, would be proceeded in with all possible deliberation. As they were so far embarked, he saw not how they could well get over it but by proceeding. Should they, in the course of the investigation, find grounds for proposing an address, that should be followed up without any unnecessary delay, but discussed with all the attention the importance of the case required, and to the consideration of which their lordships would come with minds perfectly free from prejudice.
Lord Mulgrave
disapproved of any departure from the line of proceeding already resolved upon, and every objection, made to an immediate proceeding on the part of that house, was, in his mind, equally applicable to the other house of parliament. It was no argument against any species of proceeding in that house, to say that the commons possibly may not concur. Such a principle should never be laid down. He saw no advantage which could possibly result from a recurrence to the house of commons, in the present state of the business; the judicial character was one of the greatest importance, and whatever affected it should be seriously considered. And, in every view of the case, he thought it preferable to continue the present line of proceeding, but chiefly in those of regularity and expedition. A speedy decision, in such a case, was of incalculable importance, and as such he must oppose the motion.
Lord Carleton
observed, that the learned judge in question was desirous of having the charges against him thoroughly considered, and anxious to confront the witnesses that should be brought forward. The consideration of his integrity, his fame, his high office, combined to render him anxious for an opportunity to come forward in his vin-
577
The Marquis of Abercorn
stated, that his only object in coming forward, was the ends of justice, and to settle the case between the learned judge and the petitioners, on the part of an injured public. As to the form or mode of effecting that, he had no wish to express; and, though his opinion, from what he had heard upon the point, was decided, he had no wish to express that opinion. The discussion of the important subject under consideration had been, on all sides, treated with due gravity and decorum; there was, however, one exception. A learned lord, who formerly filled a very serious and grave situation, had, he thought, in some measure, departed from the proper mode of treating the subject. There were even appearances of a bias in his mind, and he regarded him as insinuating that he thought some of the charges were ill-founded, as he said he had abandoned them. With respect to the charges, his wish was, not to bring for-
578
Lord Carleton
spoke in explanation. He would leave it to the noble marquis himself, how far he had, in his expressions, departed from that degree of gravity and dignity which should always accompany discussions in that house. With respect to the charges adverted to, he only said, he had a right to assume some of them were not well founded, because they were withdrawn. He by no means alluded to the noble marquis, as having proposed them, knowing them to be ill founded; did the noble marquis know him as well as some noble lords in that house, he would not have so expressed himself; he never had a personal altercation with any man; he never made the smallest personal allusion to the noble marquis in what he said, still less did he attribute to him any improper motives.
Earl Spencer
spoke generally in support of the proposition. No individual Considerations, he thought, should weigh on such an occasion; their lordships should consider they were about to set a precedent on a case of the highest importance; a circumstance which should outweigh all minor considerations.
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, the more be considered the subject in question, the more he was confirmed in the justness of the objections he bad offered on a former night. By what fell from a noble lord opposite, he was misconceived in what he said on a former night; what he had said was, that when the commons had decided upon a vote of impeachment, he could not conceive any ground upon which they were not bound to agree to an address for removal in the first instance. With respect to what had been said that night on the ground of delay, proceedings of the kind involved a kind of trial in the house of commons as well as in that house; of this the case of Mr. Hastings, who was heard in his defence at the bar of that house, was an instance, as was also that of sir Elijah Impey, though the events were different. However, with all possible respect towards the house of commons, he thought, that, in the particular case before them, truth and justice were more likely to be obtained
579
Lord Grenville
declared, that a more extraordinary doctrine he had never heard laid down gravely in that house, than that one and the same individual should be tried twice for one and the same offence. There was no court of justice in his majesty's dominions, that would for a moment entertain the abominable proposition. The act, he believed in his conscience, was passed to prevent persons who were incapable of performing the duties of their office, or who might be immoral characters, from longer holding the situation of a judge. It was a sort of milder punishment than that of impeachment, which was derected to something criminal. When he heard a noble lord make the assertion, that it was most proper that the persons who commenced the investigation should go through with it and come to a decision on the case, he might suppose that the ordinary proceedings of our courts of justice were nearly at an end. He might expect to hear the noble lord come down to the house to-morrow, and move to ever turn the whole system of the justice of the country. The ordinary and established manner of proceeding, was for a grand jury to hear only one side of the question, and on that to find a bill; but then the same persons did not go on to the conviction of the party accused. It would be remembered that in the case of Warren Hastings, the other house, when the charges were alledged against him, gave him an opportunity of being heard at the bar in his defence, before a single article of impeachment was made out against him. They then brought him before this house, which, by virtue of its superior privilege, examined witnesses upon oath. In the case of sir Elijah Impey also, a defence was made at the bar of the other house, and in con-sequence of that defence the charges were set aside. The house of commons therefore were properly the grand jury, who undertook the first investigation of the charge, and either founded a proceeding on it, or rejected the accusation. This was, as it is by its
580
Lord Sidmouth
said, that in the natural division of the respective duties and privileges of the two houses of parliament, that which was judicial seemed to belong as peculiarly to the chamber of lords, as that which respected finance belonged to the chamber of commons. He by no means questioned the right of either house to originate subjects of every kind, but their lordships well knew that the chamber of commons did in fact claim and exercise the right of commencing questions of finance; and it could not be denied but that, the house of lords, by possessing the power of administering an oath, was peculiarly fitted for the discussion of judicial questions. He therefore thought this question properly began here; and he could see no just ground whatever for the delay of six weeks; at the end of that time they might be in the same situation as they were now. It was of the utmost importance that the matter should be deckled on forthwith. The noble lord who spoke last, seemed to resolve the power of the two houses as to inquiry into the conduct of judges, into the single case of supervening imbecility. Now, he thought, that this was a case more suited to ministerial arrangement, and of which the noble and learned lord on the woolsack would feel it his duty to take cognizance.
Lord Grenville
said, that he could scarcely
581
[IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.]
The order of the clay for the second reading of the Irish habeas corpus suspension bill was called for. Previous to its being read,
Lord Grenville
adverted particularly to what had passed on a former night, in consequence of a motion of a noble friend of his (lord King) now absent, He contended, that the species of information required by his noble friend was of great importance to enable their lordships to understand the subject in question. It was right parliament should know upon what conditions those who were liberated from arrests were discharged; the production required was agreeable to the practice and usage on former occasions; he was at a loss to know upon what grounds that which transpired between govt. and those whom they deemed traitors or conspirators should be kept secret from parliament. However, the proposition originally made by his noble friend had been qualified, so as he thought would remove the objection then offered; and he should before the other order of the day was entered upon, move an address to his majesty, "that a statement of the conditions upon which persons liberated from arrests, &c. should be laid before the house, except so far as the same may relate to information given, or to be given, respecting any traitorous proceeding," &c.—On the question being put,
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that what he said on a former night had been misconceived. He said that he knew of no such conditions, not being aware of any proceedings in the way of release to which they might apply; but his objection was to the principle of the motion in the manner it was brought forward; and he repeated his conviction, that under such circumstances, and at such a time, to agree to such, a motion, might be productive of
582
The Marquis of Sligo
supported the observations of the noble secretary. The disclosures alluded to might be of a most destructive tendency. His lordship alluded to some cases, as a correspondence with the enemy, in which a disclosure would be not only impolitic, but dangerous; and he adverted to the case of Oliver Bond, the remission of whose punishment might, in. a certain point of view, be said to have saved Ireland. The state of Ireland was in general good; yet, he thought the suspension of the habeas corpus act in that country, with a reference to certain circumstances, a prudent and politic measure.
Lord Grenville
said, that no person connected with govt. had stated any possible mischief that could arise from his motion, and he certainly saw none.
The Lord Chancellor
observed, that he filled the office of attorney general when the habeas corpus act was first suspended, and, though fully convinced as he was of the beneficial tendency of that suspension, yet, if such a disclosure as that now requested had been made, he should have thought it his duty, as speedily after as possible, to have moved for the repeal of the suspension. It would be better tolet the present bill expire, than to agree to such a condition as that proposed. He agreed with his noble friend as to the effects of the qualification of the original motion, and with the noble lord who had come forward, from his experience of the transactions alluded to, that there could be no degree of safety, nor could the beneficial effects of the suspension be expected, if such a condition was attached to it.—The question was put, and the motion was negatived without a division.
Lord Hawkesbury
then moved the second reading of the Irish habeas corpus suspension bill, which was accordingly read a second time. His lordship then, pursuant
583
The Marquis of Sligo
took notice of the expression, that the north of Ireland only was loyal. He believed that every part of the country was loyal; taken in the mass, it was in a most perfect State of tranquillity; though he was ready to own that emissaries might be at work to sow disaffection, and that this bill might be necessary and useful to keep them quiet.
Lord Hawkesbury
explained, that he by no means intended to say that the north of Ireland only was loyal, but that he could not say so much of the tranquillity of every part of Ireland, as of the north.
The Earl of Carlisle
said, that whatever reasons there might be for continuing the suspension of the habeas corpus in Ireland, there could be none for treating parliament in this summary way. Acts of parliament were not subject to apoplexy. Their dissolution was necessarily foreseen, and it became the duty of ministers to explain to that house, what had prevented their introduction of this bill in time for it to undergo its regular investigation. It seemed necessary to create a new patent
584
Lord Hawkesbury
assured the noble earl, that no peer could pay more sacred regard to the liberties of the people than himself. But in this instance there was no time to go through the usual forms, since the present act expired on Tuesday next, and there required time to forward the act, after it had received the royal assent, to that kingdom.
Earl Spencer
said, the question was not whether the act should be again suspended, but whether it should be suspended without inquiry? Parliament had now sat since the 15th of January. Why not, if the reasons for this bill were notorious, introduce it sooner, to give it the sanction of deliberate inquiry? As to the notoriety of the grounds for the suspension, he, for one, knew nothing of it, and was denied all means of know-ledge. A noble marquis who was well acquainted with the country, had said that it was in a state of tranquillity. Why, then, all this haste? Even departing from all the rules of the house, it was very doubtful, if even possible, that the act could arrive in Ireland in time; for it could not receive the royal assent before Saturday. It had been urged in support of the motion that the habeas corpus act had been suspended nine times in the course of the last war. He did not, however, recollect any instance, without-a particular case made out, or a previous enquiry. It was only said, that Irish traitors in France were corresponding with disaffected persons in Ireland. If that were sufficient, then, as long as there was a disaffected man in Ireland, and an Irish traitor in France, the French, govt. might make a case whenever it pleased to deprive us of the best security of our liberties.
The Earl of Longford
lamented, the system of desolation that had prevailed in Ireland for ten years past. You, have heard of it, said his lordship, but we have felt it. You would give much to avoid the experience of such calamities. We would give much more to prevent their repetition. The people of Ireland look with confidence to a firm and vigorous govt. and they are ready to make sacrifices to deserve it. If it be a matter, of notoriety that a correspondence is now carrying on
585
The Duke of Montrose
was confident, that if the Habeas Corpus Act bad been suspended in Ireland, in 1803, the insurrection in Dublin would not have taken place.
The Earl of Enniskillen
urged, upon the experience of fourteen months residence in Ireland, the necessity of arming the executive govt. with strong powers.
The Duke of Clarence
said, that the question was not whether the bill was necessary, but, whether they should pass it without enquiry. The noble secretary spoke of his veneration for the habeas corpus, and yet in his actions sported with it in the most wanton manner. What had ministers been doing for the six weeks that parliament had sat, not to bring in this most important bill in time to allow the house to discharge their duty to the country?
The Earl of Limerick
alluded to the experience of 10 years past, the arrival of the French in Bantry Bay, and the rebellion in 1803, and contended, that if the bill were not passed, there would be French emissaries in every part of Ireland.
Earl Darnley
was averse to granting such a power to any set of ministers, and least of all to the present; for it was known that they were totally divided among themselves as to the treatment of Was there any such notoriety? If there the Irish people. One set of them had gone out of office expressly because they could not obtain for the Irish what they thought they deserved, and what would keep them loyal. The other had come in on the express condition of withholding from the Irish this boon. Could he consent to give to such men this tremendous act without inquiry?
Lord Auckland
declared his conviction of the necessity of the bill, and at the same time could not figure any objection as to the propriety of discharging the two standing orders of the house, which, instead of being an infringement, was in itself a recognition of their privileges remaining in full force.
Lord Grenville
was of opinion, that the node of proceeding with respect to this bill was directly in the teeth of the established farms of the house. It was a rule which ought always to fee most rigidly adhered to, never to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act except in cases of the last extremity. Now, he would ask, was there
586
587
Lord Mulgrave
expressed his astonishment that the noble lord should have argued against a measure, which, on former occasions, had been adopted without any previous inquiry, and when there were no stronger grounds for it than on the present occasion. A bill of this kind had been passed year after year, without any parliamentary investigation, but merely on the notoriety of facts; it was not objected to in the manner it was at present; and would any one pretend to say, that there were not circumstances at this
588
589
The house then went into a committee on. the bill, when.
The Duke of Clarence
addressed their lordships to the following effect:—My lords, after having seen this measure brought forward without any previous inquiry, or without any single ground having been stated on which it can be justified or even defended; after observing the precipitancy with which it is attempted to be hurried through the house, I. should willingly reject it altogether, were it in my power, because it goes unjustly to deprive a large portion of the subjects of the kingdom of the benefits they are entitled to from the constitution. But as I fear it is not possible to reject the bill, I wish to propose an amendment that will have the effect of doing away some of its evil consequences by limiting its duration. I wish to introduce an amendment by which it shall continue in force no longer than 6 weeks. During that interval the ministers will have an opportunity of coming to their sober senses; they will have time to reflect on the nature and consequences of the bill, and to deliberate with themselves how far it may be expedient for them to renew it. If then it it should appear to them that it ought to be continued, they will be enabled to do so in a constitutional manner, by bringing down a message from his majesty, stating the existence of traitorous conspiracies in Ireland, and recommending such an inquiry and investigation, as may lay a just foundation for a bill of this nature. I therefore move, that instead of the word "six weeks after the next session of parliament," there be inserted the following words: "six weeks
590
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 21, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
A new writ was ordered to be issued for a member to serve for the borough of Calne, in the room of Joseph Jekyl, Esq. who has accepted of the place of one of the King's Counsel.—A person presented at the bar, an account of the receipts and expenditure of the Thames Navigation, for the years 1804 and 1805.—Lord Dunlo brought up the report of the Quarantine bill, which was ordered to be read a third time tomorrow.—Mr. Foster moved, that there be laid before the house an account of the Irish Exports and Imports for the year 1804. The account was accordingly presented.—An account was presented of the several Loans borrowed in this country for the use of Ireland, which was ordered to be printed.—The Secretary at War moved, that there be laid before the house, an account of the return of men raised under the Army of Reserve act, from the 1st of Jan. 1804, to the5lhof.Tan. 1805.—The Loan bill was brought in by Mr. Huskisson, and read a first time.—The thanks of the house were voted, on a motion of Lord Dunlo, to the Rev. Dr. Hall, for his excellent sermon preached on the Fast Day before the house, which was ordered to be printed.—Mr. Huskisson brought in the additional Postage bill, which was read a first time.—Mr. Husskisson brought in the Horse Duty bill. Sir W. W. Wynne gave notice that, as being a tax on the agriculture of the country, he would oppose the bill in all its stages. It was then read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.]
Mr. Windham,
in rising to submit to the house the motion of which he had given notice on the first day of the session, could not forbear calling the attention of gentlemen to the numerous postponements that had taken place with respect to it, none of which, excepting the last, had originated with himself. The only delay that was chargeable to him was rendered desirable and necessary by many considerations. The motion he was about to offer was almost precisely the same as that offered by
591
592
argumentum ad homines;
593
594
595
596
597
598
599
600
victoria.
601
altum silentium.
602
603
604
605
606
607
608
609
610
611
ne plus ultra.
612
613
614
Mr. Canning
said, however be might differ from the arguments and sentiments; that had been stated by his right hon. friend, he did not differ with him as to the grounds upon which he proposed the motion that had been just submitted to the
615
616
617
618
619
620
621
622
623
Mr. Windham
rose to explain. He did not mean to imply the army should be excused from the service in the West Indies; he intended only to intimate that much of the peril of that duty might be avoided by some salutary regulations.
Sir William Young
rose in reply, and animadverting on the assertion of the right hon. gent. who spoke last, that no care was made out to justify the house in adopting the motion of his right hon. friend, proceeded to shew, that a case was made out, and that it required attention only to the documents before parliament, to put that case in a clear and strong light, and which no declamation or sophistry could overshadow and obscure. If, said the hon. baronet, in December 1803, parliament voted a very considerable augmentation of military force, under a general sense of the danger and exigencies of the country, and the necessity of going far beyond an army suited merely to defence; if that vote has not been given effect; if a total failure of increasing our infantry of the line has occurred; and if even the British regular infantry have decreased in numbers from Jan. 1804 to Jan. 1805, surely such failure, to be attributed only to the inefficiency of the measures adopted by parliament, or to neglect or incapacity of executive ministers to give their measures effect, constitutes a case for enquiry, and for going into a committee (as proposed) for a revision of the laws passed with a view to military levies, and of the exertions and measures adopted by ministers for the like purpose.—By the returns on the table, the total army, exclusive of militia, was in Jan. 1804, 143,251 men. Under strong impressions of; the nature and magnitude of the contest in which we were engaged, and with a view to active warfare, and offensive operations, loudly called for by every statesman, nay, by every man in the country who had a sense of the, true interests, honour, or Very safety of the British dominion, parliament in Dec. 9, 1803, voted an army of 191,099 men, being an addition of 47,848 men to the then effective force.—Under law as such as have passed, measures such
624
1804
1805
The cavalry from
17117
are
21223
and
have increased
4046
The artillery from
7661
are
8517
and
have incensed
898
The foreign troops
13890
are
21208
and
have increased
7318
Making an increase in above services of
12261
625
626
For Mr. Windham's motion,
96
Against it,
242
Majority against the motion,
146
List of the Minority.
Adair, R.
Hurst, R.
Althorpe, Lord
Hutchinsou, H. C H.
Andover, Viscount
Johnstone, George
Bagenel, Walter
Kinnaird, Hon. C.
Bampfylde, Sir C.
Ladbrooke, Robert
Barclay, George
Latouche, J.
Barclay, Sir Robert
Lawley, Sir R.
Barham, J. F.
Laurence, French
Benyon, H.
Lloyd, J. M.
Berkeley, Hon. G.C.
Maddocks, W. A.
Best, W. D.
Milner, Sir W.
Bouverie, Hon. E.
Moore, P.
Brogden, J.
Morpeth, Lord
Byng, George
Morris, Edward
Calcraft, John
Mostyn, Sir T.
Calvert, J.
Newport, Sir John
Cavendish, Lord G.
North, Dudley
Cavendish, W.
Osborne, Lord F. G.
Caulfield, Hon. H.
Ord, Wm.
Chapman, Charles
Ossulston, Lord
Cooke, Bryan
Palmer, John
Combe, H. C.
Paxton, Sir R.
Creevey, Thomas
Pierce, J.
Daley, D. Bowes
Pelhain, Hon. C. A.
Dundas, C.
Petty, Lord Henry
Dundas, Hon. C. L.
Plumer, William.
Dundas, Hon. G. L.
Poyntz, Wm. S.
Dundas, Hon. L.
Raine, Jonathan
Ebrington, Lord
Russell, Lord Wm.
Elliot, Wm.
Shelly, T.
Fitzgerald, Hon. J.
Scudamore, John
Fane, J.
Sheridan, K. B.
Fellowos, Robert
Shum, G.
Folkes, Sir M.
Smith, Wm.
Folkestone, Lord
Stanley, Lord
Foley, Hon. A.
St. John, Hon. St. A.
Foley T.
Symonds T. P.
Fox, Hon. C. J.
Tarleton, B.
Francis, Philip
Temple, Earl
Fuller, J.
Tyrrwhitt, Thos.
Geary, Sir William.
Walpole, Hon. G.
Giles, D.
Western, C. C.
Grenfell, Pascoe
Whitbread, S.
Grey, Hon. Charles
Windham, Rt. Hon. W.
Hamilton, Lord A.
Wynn, Sir W.
Hippesley, Sir J. C.
Wynn, C.
Holland, Henry, jun.
Ward, Hon. J. W.
Howard, Henry
Williams, Owen
Hughes, Win. Lewis
Young, Sir W.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday February 22, 1805.
[MINUTES]
The loyalty loan bill, and the Greenland whale fishery bill, were read a third time and passed.—The quarantine bill, and two private Bills, were brought up from the Commons and read a first time.—The royal assent was given by commission to the Exchequer
627
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 22, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
A messenger from the lords acquainted the house that their lordships had agreed to the coal factors' indemnity bill, the Irish habeas corpus suspension bill, and several private bills.—Mr. Creevey moved, that there be laid before the house, an account of the application of the surplus revenue of the isle of Alan, from the 5th of Jan. 1798, to the 5th of Jan. 1804. Ordered.—The quarantine bill was read a third time and passed.—The 22½ millions loan bill was read a second time.—The postage duties bill was read a second time.—Mr. Giles moved, that there be laid before the house a copy of the apportionment of the 9 thousand men directed by the additional force bill for England, to be raised in the several counties in England, for the year ending Oct. 1, I805, towards supplying the vacancies of those who had enlisted into the regular forces. The hon. gent. made the same motion in respect to Ireland, which were both ordered accordingly.—Mr. Me-heux, from the Commissioners of the India Board, presented copies of the. treaties and of the correspondence between this country and India, moved for by Mr. Francis on a former day.—Mr. J. Fitzgerald having moved the order of the house to be read, for an account of the salaries, payments, and compensations granted in Ireland, from Jan. 1799 to 1804; and that order having accordingly been read, moved that a return be made pursuant to the said order; which was ordered accordingly —Mr. Calcraftmoved, that there be laid before the house, a return of the number of effective men added to the royal artillery, from 1st of June, 1804, to the 1st of Jan. 1805.
[CONDUCT OF SIR HOME POPHAM.]
Sir William Burroughs
osberved, that the papers laid on the table relative to the conduct of an hon. baronet, who commanded the Red Sea squadron, rendered it necessary that other papers should be produced. He therefore moved, "that a copy of the examination before the commissioners of naval enquiry, relative to the management of the squadron in the Red Sea, under Sir Home Popham, should be laid on the table."
628
Sir Charles Pole
did not see the smallest objection to this paper; but, as it was certainly a motion of a novel nature, he thought that some previous notice ought to have been given.
Mr. Grey
concurred in the propriety of giving notice. He understood now that an examination of the case had taken place before the commissioners of Naval Enquiry, respecting the conduct of sir Home Popham. He was well pleased that this was the case, and undoubtedly it was of importance that every paper that could throw any light on this affair should be produced. At the same time, it was not usual to move for a paper of this nature; but, as the hon. baronet, who was a member of the commission, had no objection, it might, with the greatest propriety, be received.
Mr. Canning
observed, that the essential reason for the motion was this: it had been said in the house, that the commissioners, when directed to investigate this affair by the Admiralty, returned for answer, that it was not a matter within their province, but was rather a subject for a court martial. The hon. baronet (sir Charles Pole) had then omitted to state, through inadvertency, he had no doubt, that the commissioners had, however, proceeded with the investigation. Now it did happen, that we had the testimony of one Lewis, a most material witness, who could not, however, be heard at the bar of the house. It was necessary that we should, in this case, have the best possible evidence. It was fortunate that this man was brought forward as an evidence, as they had travelled out of their way to investigate this affair. He begged leave, therefore, to follow up the notice just now given by some other notices. He would move for the date of the paper containing the directions of the Admiralty or Navy Board, to the commissioners for proceeding in this affair; the date of the reference of the case back again to the Admiralty or Navy Board, by the commissioners; together with a copy of any answer made by the commissioners of naval enquiry to any communication from the Admiralty.
Mr. Grey
said, that if the right hon gent. had any charge to bring against the commissioners of naval inquiry, he had no doubt it would be fully met.
Sir Charles Pole
observed, that he had never stated that the commissioners of naval inquiry bad refused to proceed with
629
[HORSE DUTY BILL.]
This bill stood on the order book for a second reading this day. Mr. Huskisson and Mr. Sturges Bourne, the two Secretaries of the Treasury, wished it to be read accordingly. The members of opposition in the house, appeared to wish that the second reading might either be deferred, or debated then. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was not in the house. At length, after several short conferences across the table,
Mr. Fox
rose. He said, that the public business ought not to be made to wait for any member of that house. He certainly would not wait. He should move the order of the day.—The order of the day for the second reading of the Horse Duty bill was then read, upon, which the hon. gent, observed, that he did not wish to determine the course of the public business. What he thought was, that it would he highly improper in the house to suffer the business of the public to wait for any man.
Sir Robert Buxton
said, that there were some amendments intended to be made in the bill; and therefore thought that; the order ought to be postponed to Tuesday next.—This was agreed to and the house adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 25, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Counsel were finally heard relative to the Scots Appeal, Bannerman v. Bannerman and others, viz. Messrs. Romilly and Alexander on the part of the Respondents, and Mr. Adam for the Appellant, in reply. The Lord Chancellor quitted the woolsack, and made some observations upon certain parts of the case. He concluded by proposing that its further consideration should be adjourned till tomorrow.—The bills before the house, chiefly of a private or local description, were forwarded in their respective stages. Among these was the Surry iron-rail-way bill, which was read a 2nd time, and ordered to the consideration of a private committee.—Mr. Hutchinson, from the Bank, presented at the bar, an account of
630
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 25, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
A petition was presented from the lord provost and town council of Edinburgh, praying the house to take the state of the police of that city into their consideration. The petition was ordered to be referred to a committee to consider the subject matter thereof, and report the same to the house.—Sir C. Ross presented a bill for the building of bridges, and making of roads in the Highlands of Scotland. Read a first and ordered to be read a second time.—A message from the Lords, stated that their lordships had agreed to the loyalty loan act amendment bill, and the Greenland whale fishery bill, without any amendments.—Lord Marsham reported from the Middlesex election committee, that Mr. Duncombe, a member of the said committee, had been absent this day; but the report added, that the committee understood that the hon. member's non-attendance was occasioned by the death of one of his relations. W. Arnold, servant to the member alluded to, was called to the bar, and verified the fact on oath, that the Countess of Dartmouth, the mother of his mistress, had died this day. As soon as the witness had withdrawn, an order of the house was made, that Mr. Duncombe should be excused for his non-attendance this day, and that he should be discharged from all future attendance on the said committee.—Mr. Creevey gave notice that he would 'tomorrow move that the order for the consideration of the Middlesex Election Petition, relative to the qualification of Mr. Mainwaring, should be discharged, and that a new order should be made for the last day of April.—Mr. Egerton brought up a petition from the manufacturers at Stockport, against the corn bill, which was ordered to lie
631
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 26, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Lord Scarsdale took the oaths and his seat, on his succeeding to the peerage, by the demise of his father, the late lord. The consideration of the Scotch appeal, Bannerman
v.
632
v.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 26, 1805.
This day being appointed to ballot for a committee to try the merits of the petition of certain electors of Knaresborough, the speaker proceeded to count the members at four o'clock; but there being only 89 present, the house adjourned till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 27, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Baker
presented a petition from Mr. Bowyer, proprietor of the historic gallery, in Pall-Mali, praying leave to bring in a bill, to enable him to dispose of the pictures and engravings byway of lottery. Ordered to be referred to a committee.— Mr. White presented at the bar the names of the members forming the committee to try the merits of the Knaresborough election, which are as follow: lord H. Petty, Robert Adair, esq. lord; viscount Boyle, lord Louvaine, T. Tyrrwhitt, esq. T. Foley, esq. lord W. Russell, sir W. Milner, lord viscount Ebrington, lord Ossulston, sir R. Lawley, bart. H. Holland, esq. hon. G. L. Dundas: Nominees, hon. C. Grey. C. W. Dundas, Esq.— Mr. Creevy rose, pursuant to notice, to move for the postponement of the order, which stood for Thursday, for considering the petition of certain electors of Middlesex, relative to the qualification of Mr. Mainwaring, the sitting member. The hon. member stated his reason for the motion to be this, that till the committee at present sitting on the subject of the Middle-
633
634
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]
Mr. Whitbread,
referring to the notice which had been given by an hon. friend of his (Mr. Sheridan) relative to the act of last session for raising an Additional Force, observed, that he thought it necessary, in order to enable the house to judge of the merits of that act, that certain information should be obtained with respect to its operation and effect. As the act of the last session particularly purported to have in view the filling up the deficiencies of the army of reserve and militia, he should move for, an account of the number of men deficient in the army of reserve on the 29th of June last; also, for an account of the deficiency in the several regiments of the militia, at the same period, distinguishing the original from the supplementary militia. The hon. member also moved, for an account of all the bounties paid by parish officers under the act alluded to.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought that such an account could not be obtained in time for the discussion to which the hon. member alluded; and suggested, that from the return on the table respecting the number of men obtained under the act, there could be no difficulty in forming an estimate sufficiently accurate with regard to the point to which the motion referred.
Mr. Sheridan
wished the house should be furnished with the fullest information on the points to which the motions of his hon. friend alluded, but desired it to be understood, that he would by no means consent to postpone his motion.
Mr. Whitbread
was anxious to obtain the information which his motion had in view, even if it could not be had previous to the day fixed by his hon. friend, as it might be necessary upon subjects of future discussion. The hon. member also moved, for an account of all penulties assessed on parishes for deficiencies under the act; and also, for that which might become a subject of future discussion, an account of any and what separate rates had been levied upon parishes in conse-
635
Sir Robert Buxton
saw no objection to tins motion but the difficulty of complying with it from the mode of keeping parish accounts.
Mr. Whitbread
moved for copies of all circular letters addressed by the secretaries of state to the lieutenants of counties relative to the execution of this act.— This and the other motions of the hon member were agreed to, as was a motion of Mr. Sheridan, for an account of the number of men raised under this act, from the last return up to the latest period at which the same could be made out.
[CONDUCT OF SIR HOME POPHAM.]
Mr. Grey,
in the absence of an hon. friend (Mr. Kinnaird) made the motions of which his hon. friend had given notice on a former day, with some others, which he thought necessary to add to them. The papers moved for were; 1, an account of all repairs, & c. of the Romney, when fitted out in Sept. and Oct. 1800, and the expence attending the same; 2, an account of all repairs or alterations of the masts and hull of the Romney, in the months of Oct. Nov. and Peel 1800, together with the expences of the same; 3, the last report of the survey or examination of the Sensible, and the expence of the repairs of 1800, with the amount of the stores furnished to the said ship; 4, an account of all repairs done to the Romney and Sensible,'and other ships under the command of sir Home Popham, and of all stores furnished to the said ships, particularizing the separate expences of each ship, and amount of stores; 5, an account of all the expences, repairs, &c. of the Romney and other vessels under the command of sir Home Popham at the Cape of Good Hope; particularizing the stores, and specifying the quality, quantity, and price of each article; 6, an account of the naval stores, & c, purchased by Mr. Spearman in the Red Sea, and all other disbursements made for the vessels under sir Home Popham, while in that sea; with the vouche:5 for the same; 7, an account of the terms of service, bounties received, the discharges,
636
Sir W. Burroughs
objected to the word "apprehended." He thought it was too hurtful to the feelings, and should therefore prefer "taken up," or any other expression.
Admiral Markham
contended, that as Bartholomew never was discharged from the service at the time he left it, he could not be considered as a man impressed. He therefore must be of opinion that "apprehended" was the most proper word to be made use of in this instance. The orders sent to sir Home Popham were to turn over all the officers of the Romney. Why he did not do so remained for him to shew.
Mr. Grey
said, he had no wish to make use of any word that might be unnecessarily hurtful to the feelings of any person; but the whole of the enquiry might be objected to on much the same grounds.
Mr. Sturges Bourne
said, that some circumstances relating to Mr. Bartholomew, made part of the defence, of sir Home Popham before the admiralty and that house.
Mr. Grey
observed, with respect to the objection to the word he had used, that Bartholomew did actually belong to the navy at the time he had absented himself from service; that notwithstanding the order to sir Home Popham, he was on shore, and on this being heard and considered, the lieutenant of the press-gang took him, and carried him back to the service to which he belonged.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, there could be no doubt of the fact, that Bartholomew was taken by the press-gang. Would it not therefore be the better way to use those words in describing a fact which came the nearest to the transaction itself? Why not say, "taken by a press-gang and carried to the Nore".
Sir Home Popham
said, that he had, no
637
Admiral Markham
said, that according to the speech of the hon. baronet, it would be thought Mr. Bartholomew was some young gentleman known to many members of that house, instead of what he appeared to be on entering the service, a landsman and afterwards becoming an able
638
Mr. Grey
presented a petition from Wm. Mitchell, Esq. capt. of his majesty's ship the Zealand. The petitioner complained of certain false statements and misrepresentations contained in letters from, and an affidavit by, David Ewing Bartholomew, which lies on the table of the house, in which the said Bartholomew charges petitioner with ill-treating him while on board the Zealand, in consequence, as Bartholomew stated, of his being known to be a witness in favour of sir Home Popham. Petitioner therefore prayed, that an order should be made, that copies of the letters and affidavit which he had addressed to the secretary of the admiralty, in reference to allegations of Bartholomew's affidavit, should be laid before the house; and also that he, the petitioner, should be furnished with Copies of the letters and affidavit of Bartholomew. Petitioner further prayed, that he might be called to the bar of the house, to answer the charges against him, and that the house would afford him such opportunity of vindicating his honour, as to its judgment should seem meet. The petition was ordered to lie on the table, and orders were made, on the motion of Mr. Grey, for the papers referred to in the said petition. On the motion of Mr. W, Dickenson, a copy was ordered to be laid before the house of the certificate of Mr. Bartholomew having passed his examination for a lieutenancy; also, a copy of the muster roll of the Enterprize relative to the taking of Mr. Bartholomew by a press-gang
Mr. Canning
moved, for copies of all correspondence between the lords of the. admiralty and the commissioners for naval enquiry on the subject of sir Home Popham; also between the admiralty and the navy board, with the dates, and particularly the date of the order of the navy board for sending the papers relating to sir Home Popham to the commissioners for naval enquiry; also an account of what took place before the commissioners on this subject.
Admiral Markham,
conceiving the case respecting the hon. baronet would be incom-
639
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 28, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The Quarantine Regulation bill went through a committee, and was reported without any amendment.— The committee of privileges on the Rous peerage was postponed till Thursday next. —On the motion of the Lord Chancellor, the Judgment of the Court of Session in Scotland, in the appeal Bannerman
v.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 28, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The sheriffs of London appeared at the bar, and presented a petition from the corporation, praying for leave to have a bill brought in to enable them to extend the limits of Smithfield market. Ordered to lie on the table.— Colonel Stanley presented three different petitions from certain manufacturers and other inhabitants of Lancashire, praying the repeal of the Corn act of last sessions. After an observation from the Secretary at War, that he did not believe the persons who complained in this instance felt any real grievance from the act alluded to, the petitions were ordered to lie on the table. —General Gascoyne presented petitions against the slave trade abolition bill, and praying to be heard by counsel against it, from the mayor and corporation, also from the merchants and other inhabitants of Liverpool, and also from the manufacturers and certain inhabitants of Birmingham. Ordered to lie on the table.—On the motion of Mr. Byng, leave was given to bring in a bill for the repeal of the act of last sessions relative to the construction of a workhouse, &c. in the parish of St.
640
[MUTINY BILL.]
On the motion by the Secretary at War, for the second reading of the Mutiny bill,
General Fitzpatrick
rose to state, some propositions Which he should feel it his duty to submit to the committee on this bill. In order to add to the solemnity of Courts Martial, and to prevent the infliction as much as possible of those severe punishments, which he knew were unfortunately necessary in some instances although in many they were almost worse
641
[SLAVE TRADE.]
Mr. Wilberforce
rose to move the second reading of the bill for the abolition of the slave trade. The hon. member stated, that the measure had been so often discussed, the sense of parliament had been so frequently taken upon it, and that house had so decidedly expressed its opinion upon the subject in the course of the last sessions, he felt it unnecessary to trespass upon the attention of the house on the present occasion, but reserved to himself the right of replying to any arguments that might be advanced against the motion he had the honour to submit.
The Speaker
observed, that according to the custom of the house, none but a member originating a new motion, had the right of general reply to any objections made against it, and therefore the hon. gent, possessed no such right.
General Gascoyne
could not let the question go by without giving his opinion upon it once more. The hon. mover had said, that no new reason bad occurred since last session against the adoption of this measure. He should, however, rely upon the wisdom and upon the feelings of the house, upon a. measure so interesting and so important to the interests of this country, to our revenues, and even to our existence as a nation. He trusted the house would not consider any former pledge of this
642
643
644
645
Mr. C. Brooke
said, if the abolition of the slave trade was rendered general by the consent of all those powers who had colonial possessions, he did not know that our colonies would suffer so much as those of other powers, from the superior resources which we possessed, and the high state of cultivation in which these colonies were. But the policy of France and Spain led these powers to continue this trade. During the phrenzy of the revolution in France, the slave trade was abolished, and that measure led to all those horrors which had since occurred in St. Domingo. After the peace, however, or rather the truce of Amiens, one of the first acts of the consular authority was to re-establish the slave trade; and not only this, but every encouragement was given to the subjects of France; bounties were granted upon the importation of slaves, and every facility was established which could promote the increase of the trade. Such was the policy of France at that time, and such continued to be the policy of France at the present moment. This being the case, what would be the effect of our abolishing the trade, but only to throw it into the hands of other nations. If we abolished the trade, it would not be the means of compelling those vessels which were at present engaged in it to give it up; they might, and many of them, no doubt, would continue it under the sanction of other powers. During the short period of the last peace every encouragement was given to British subjects engaged in this trade, to go to France with their vessels; they were allowed to navigate their own vessels with only the regulation of having a nominal French commander, and being engaged to take a number of French apprentices. This evinced the value which was set upon the trade by France, and the same encouragements would, doubtless, be held out in the event of another peace. Spain also gave every facility to the trade; but she was prevented from turning it much to advantage by the want of a commercial navy. She was only prevented, however,
646
Sir William Young.
—Sir; in treating of this important question, the hon. mover' has contented himself with saying, that there is nothing new in it. Though we are now engaged in agitating a point which, materially concerns the British empire, though the ruin or salvation of one of its most valuable component parts may depend on the success or the failure of this project of his, he has had the boldness to say, that there is no occasion to hear the arguments of counsel on this subject! There is nothing new, he observes, and therefore he thinks that neither he nor any body else need say any thing about the matter; and, acting upon this opinion, he has given in his negative to calling in the counsel. Nothing new, sir! Has nothing new happened in the situation of St. Domingo? Have the hon. gent. and his friends entirely neglected to turn their attention to the interesting lesson which this island affords? Have they attended to the consequences that have resulted from the measures of emancipation pursued by a set of Jacobins in a moment of political phrenzy? If they have not attended to these things, what are we to think of their preparations for the discussion and management of an affair of this nature? If they have attended to them, can they produce any satisfactory evidence to shew that the same consequences which flowed from the Jacobin excesses, will not follow a similar decree of the British senate, supposing that we should have profited so little by the experience of France, and our own observation, as to pass such a decree? Is there nothing new in the situation of Jamaica? Has the hon. gent, seen the report of the assembly, or did he think it worth his while to read it? The assembly of that Island are so impressed with the pernicious, and absolutely ruinous consequences of this measure, that they have sent a confidential agent to this country, in order to resist, by every means in their power, its progress. When the interests of such faithful subjects of the British em-
647
648
649
650
651
fiat justitia, fuat cœlum.
652
653
Mr. Barham
said, that he was convinced that as an hon. gentleman below him had said, this was the time for the abolition of the slave trade, if it was to be done at all, he was satisfied that it was now practicable, that it was always desirable, but that now it was necessary. There were four points to which he wished to call the attention of the house; 1st. the general policy of the measure; 2d. its practicability; 3d. the danger arising to the colonies from not promoting it; and, lastly, the justice of the thing. As to the general policy, it was once said that this traffic was absolutely necessary. This assertion was, however, partly abandoned. This individual branch of trade would certainly be destroyed; but as it was only a small part, this was of less importance: 2dly, with regard to the practicability of the measure, he was once of Opinion that it was not practicable; and if the same circumstances had existed he would have been still of the same opinion. The capitals would once have been certainly carried away into foreign countries, but now the case was altered. Instead of engaging their capitals in hazardous specuculation, the merchants and planters would rather bring them home if necessary. Slaves could not now be smuggled into Jamaica from St. Domingo. He had no doubt that if the measure was passed now, it would succeed. It was not likely that the traffic would pass into other hands. Other nations had given indications of their intentions to put an end to the slave trade. He knew that no change could be adopted which would not be attended with danger. But was there no danger in continuing the trade? The proportion of negroes to the white inhabitants of the colonies was daily increasing. The traffic was constantly adding to the disproportion, and the desire of liberty was inflamed by every cargo of fresh imported negroes. Regard was to be had to the situation of St. Domingo, where there was no people to enter into competition with us in the West Indies. The danger of abolishing the trade was less, then, than that of continuing it. In the case of a man who laboured under a disease, what would a wise physician do? He applied the remedy while the patient was capable of receiving it; and thus stood the affair with respect to our West India
654
General Tarleton.
—Sir; I consider it as a duty incumbent on me to oppose this measure with all the ability which I possess. The question is such, that it certainly deserves the most serious deliberation, and the coolest investigation of the house, t trust, therefore, that the reasons urged against the measure will be heard and weighed with all that candour that becomes an assembly such as this. In the opening part of the speech of the gentleman who has just sat down, he said that now or never was the time to put in practice the measure of the abolition. Sir, I see nothing in the present time that, in this respect, peculiarly distinguishes it from former times. At all times, I have thought this a most ruinous measure, and the present time contains nothing to make me alter my opinion. In order to be convinced of the vast importance of this traffic in every respect, we have only to attend to the situation of Liverpool, and compare the state of that city with what it was not more than a century ago. Its population, about a hundred years ago, did not exceed 2,500. This population carried on its trade in about 100 barks. Its capital was then about 10,000l. What is its state now? It employs no less than about 5,000 ships,
655
656
Mr. Fuller.
—am told, sir, that a contract is actually entered into by govt. to procure slaves as. troops for the West Indies at 551. per man. How this can be reconciled with the conduct of the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer on the present occasion, I am utterly at a loss to conceive. This is supporting a measure in one way, and opposing it in another. An hon. gent. had said that this was the proper time for abolishing the slave trade. This, sir, is in complete contradiction to the report of the assembly at Jamaica. This is not the proper time for this measure. There has not as yet been sufficient time for one of the parties to be heard. An hon. gent. has said that sufficient evidence has already been given. But this evidence has not been given on oath. Another reason against the abolition is that the plantations, especially the small ones, must absolutely be given up in case it is effected. It has been said, that foreign nations had given indications of abandoning this traffic. It is very easy for them, to be sure, to give it up, since they have lost almost all their colonies, and therefore have very little need of slaves; but is that the situation of this country? Another disadvantage which would result from the adoption of this measure is, that in such a case, we could scarcely find agents to manage our property in the West Indies. The great inducement to them for going out, is the chance of being able to procure slaves, and commence planters on a small scale at first for themselves. Unless a prospect of this kind is held out, it is certain that no people will remain in the colonies, avert for the management of our best estates. An hon. gent. has adverted to the want of compensation in this bill. Certainty it does happen, that in a bill that goes to deprive so many people of their property, there is not one clause to indemnify the sufferers, or their losses. Would this have been done even in a common turnpike bill? If the hon. gent. had proposed such a thing he would have been scouted from one end of the house to the other; and can the house be so indifferent respecting the colonies, that any person dares bring in a measure to treat them with such injustice, and by listened to with patience?
657
Mr. Hiley Addington
rose to express his opinion against the abolition of the trade; the question was certainly one of the greatest importance, and of vast magnitude, and the decision of it must be productive of great good, or of the most serious mischief. He was sorry to say, that the opinion he originally gave of the impracticability of the proposed abolition still remained unaltered. It was not from any want of consideration that his mind had not been changed; on the contrary, he had bestowed uncommon attention to the consideration of this question, from the circumstance of having the misfortune to differ in opinion from many hon. friends of his, and from some who possessed the most distinguished talents and highest endowments; he, at the first, thought the measure impracticable, and he thought so still, and he thought, moreover, that the cause of humanity had not been at all promoted by the agitation of the question, and was not likely to be benefited by its further discussion. He was aware that there was sort of popular odium attached to the defence of the existing slave
658
Sir William Pulteney
said, he would not trouble the house at any length, but he wished to make a few observations. There was certainly a considerable difference of opinion, as to this bill. Some said it might be highly dangerous in its consequences; others, that it could not fail to be very advantageous. It was however ascertained, that the slave trade had been very advantageous to the West India islands. This bill was built on theory, and he was not fond of theories; they had been productive of too much mischief. The real fact was agreed upon by all parties to be this: the West Indies cannot be cultivated by Europeans, whose constitutions will not bear fatigue in that climate. It is therefore necessary, if they are to be cultivated at all, that it must be by some other class of the human species, who being natives of warm climates, are able to endure that degree of labour and fatigue which no Europeans could do in that climate. This being the acknowledged fact, the question, is, shall we abandon the cultivation of the West India islands altogether, or what class of the human species shall we employ to, cultivate them? Some say, that it is much better to employ free negroes than slaves, and that the labour of freemen would be more productive. This is, however, only a supposition, a mere theory, The fact is known to be, that the natives of warm countries are not naturally disposed to labour. In warm countries the climate produces the means of subsistence with so little labour, that they have no necessity, and consequently no inclination, for laborious work; and for that species of labour which was necessary for raising sugar and
659
660
Mr. Fox
said, he should trouble the house but very shortly, and be should not have done so at all if it had not been for some parts of the hon. baronet's speech, which he thought required some observations. The hon. baronet had talked a good deal about splendid theories Which had been, at different times brought forward in that house, and powerfully supported by eloquence, and which were afterwards dropped. For his part, he Was Utterly at a loss to conceive what splendid theory it was which the worthy baronet alluded to; but it appeared to be aft inference, which he chose to draw from his general positions, arid from his story of the Duke of Marlborough, that eloquence was So contrary to discrimination and judgment, that whenever the house heard an opinion eloquently and Well supported, they should, oh that account, rather presume it to be wrong. This would, indeed, be a very strange conclusion, and yet it followed, as clearly as possible, from what had fallen from the worthy bayonet. This great dread of eloquence was not peculiar to the worthy baronet. The Jacobins of France had also been much afraid of it was one of their maxims that there was
661
662
Mr. Huddlestone
said, it was his purpose to have gone somewhat at large into the present important question and the consideration which it involved; but the most essential of the points which he should have endeavoured to establish, had been enforced by other gentlemen with a degree of knowledge and ability so superior to any that he could have brought to the subject, that if he were to proceed in the course he had intended, he should, weaken the impression which their speeches cannot fail to have made both on the understanding and the feelings of every member present. The task, therefore, which he had prescribed to himself was much curtailed; but relying, as he knew he might, on the candour and indulgence of the house, he would not entirely forego this opportunity of lifting his voice (feeble as it must prove) in reprobation of that monstrous traffic, the toleration of which has so long been the opprobrium of the British legislature. It was far from his intention to charge this sin upon the nation at large; for well he remembered the nation at large had testified its abhorrence of it, by universally petitioning for its abolition; and it has since been a matter of astonishment to all Christendom., that those who are the constitutional guardians of British freedom should sanction elsewhere the most detestable system of op pression and cruelty that ever disgraced a civilized nation. He said he never conversed with an advocate of this traffic who chose to give a direct or serious answer to these simple questions.—Is it just to exercise this trade?. Is it honourable to any govt. particularly one, the very essence of whose system is freedom, and whose highest boast is to secure it to the poor as well as to the rich? Is it houourable in such a govt. to encourage or permit this trade?— He repeated, that he never could obtain a direct or serious answer to either of these questions. One has said, "you are mistaken; the slaves are, in fact, very happy much happier than the labouring poor in England." But he omitted to state in what their happiness consisted —Another has answered; "would you have us drink our tea without sugar?" In other words, "would you abridge us Englishmen of part of our comforts merely to avoid mak-
663
664
665
666
667
668
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he did not rise with any intention of entering into the debate, but merely in explanation of a circumstance which bad been stated positively, and which he believed had been very much misunderstood. Several of the hon. gentlemen who bad spoken, had talked of a contract which govt. had made for purchasing 5 or 6000 slaves in Africa. He had heard of no such contract; and did not believe there could be such a one existing. Such a proposition was made to govt. and the suggestion came from the West Indies; but it was immediately rejected. He believed the govt. had never conceived the idea of buying slaves for their use, as had been represented: their idea was very different, it was to purchase the redemption of those persons from a state of slavery whom govt. wished to employ as soldiers. This was an idea totally different from that of becoming purchasers of slaves, and would not be inconsistent with any opinion that might be given on the general question now before the house for the consideration of its members.
General Gascoyne
stated, that a proposition had been made from govt. to a merchant at Liverpool for the purchase of a number of the blacks alluded to, and he could tell the right hon. gent, that whoever accepted the contract, the blacks would be purchased on the coast of Africa. Of course his original statement on this subject was not incorrect,
Mr. Wilberforce
proceeded to reply, and observed, he never had any idea of treating this traffic otherwise than as a traffic in consistent with justice and humanity; nor
669
670
671
672
673
Earl Temple
said, he was not going to delay the discussion for a moment, but there was a point which he could wish to have clearly explained; he came to the house under a conviction that goverment had entered into a contract with certain West India merchants, for a number of slaves to be purchased at a stated price, and to be furnished at a certain time; the number 5000,and the time, December. His right hon. relation said that no contract had been entered into for soldiers to that amount. But since he had heard that explanation, he had made enquiry, and he understood the matter to be thus, (if not true, his right hon. relation would inform
674
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said he knew nothing of the transaction to which the noble lord alluded—The question being called for, the house divided upon the amendment of General Gascoyne, when there appeared
For the amendment
77
Against it
70
Majority against the Bill
7
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 1, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The royal assent was given by commission to the loyalty loan bill, the Greenland whale fishery, and the Crewkhern road bill. The bills upon the table were, forwarded in their respective stages: among these the quarantine bill, and the Rev. Mr. Pons's naturalization, bill, were read a third time and passed.— The consideration of the appeal cause Bannerman v. Bannerman being resumed, the Lord Chancellor quitted the woolsack, and made some farther observations upon the case. He concluded by moving a resolution, importing a special decision, which went to dismiss the appeal, as far as respected two certain interlocutors in. the case, allowing the parties permission to apply again to the court of session, &c.; which was agreed to by their lordships.— Adjourned,
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 1, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The sheriffs of London presented a petition from the lord mayor, aldermen and common council, praying for the adoption of some additional regulations in the coal trade; and also another, praying for leave to raise money for the purpose of making some improvements in the entrance, of the port of London;
675
676
677
[SALT DUTY BILL.]
Mr. Huskisson brought in the bill for imposing an additional duty on salt, which he moved to be read a first time.
Lord Wm. Russell
said, that as he deemed the bill to be bad in principle, he must object to its being entertained at all, though, as there was other important business before them, he would not push his opposition so. far as to take the sense of the house upon it in the present stage. He thought it came with a peculiarly bad grace in a time of such distress, that there were societies forming in the metropolis, and other places, for the purpose of supplying the poor with provisions upon moderate terms, to which this tax would oppose no small impediment.—The bill was then read a. first time.
[HORSE DUTY BILL.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
informed the house, that, upon looking into the bill for levying a duty upon horses, it was found that it would be impossible to divide it, as he had proposed doing on a former night. The body of the bill contained nothing but matter of regulation which might apply, generally, to the collection of the duty on any description of horses. The amount of the tax was afterwards specified in a schedule. He should therefore, move that the duty upon agricultural horses be expunged from the schedule, as that appeared to be the exceptionable part; and he would afterwards bring in a separate bill for the levying of that tax.—The bill as far as it relates to the tax upon all other horses but those employed in purposes of husbandry, was then passed through a committee of the whole house, and the report was ordered to be received on Monday.
[COMMISSION OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.]
Mr. Giles,
pursuant to the notice he had given some time since, rose to move for the continuance of the powers granted to the commissioners of naval enquiry. To those who were not in the house at the time when he put some questions to the
678
679
680
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he by no means meant to propose to the house, not to continue the act, if its continuation should be necessary; but, that he did not think it necessary to vote its continuance before any occasion for that measure should appear. He did not hesitate to say, that the reports of the commissioners had been attended with much benefit, neither had he any difficulty in declaring, that, if there was not sufficient time before the close of the session to terminate the investigation referred to them, their powers should be further continued. But it did not now appear that the remainder of the session would not afford sufficient time. On the review taken by the hon. and learned gent. himself of the subjects proposed for enquiry, only one of any great importance remained uninvestigated, that was the victualling department; the transport department and the others were of inferior importance. He saw no reason, however, to suppose that the commissioners might not be prepared to make their report of the victualling office now, nor that they had not at intervals turned their attention to the other remaining subjects of inquiry, on which no report had yet been made, in such a manner as to leave little to be done to make up what they would submit to the house respecting them. He thought it right, therefore, to wait till a more advanced period of the session, and then if it should be necessary, he should have no objection to the continuance. The hon. and learned gent. had thought proper to allude to another commission, which he considered as disrespectful to the house, though it was not very easy to see on what such an opinion was founded. The object of that commission was to carry into effect every improvement! which the reports of the commission had' suggested. It was rather singular, there-
681
Mr. Martin (of Tewksbury)
wished every success to the motion of the hon. and learned gentleman. He professed the utmost respect for the late first lord of the admiralty, and declared, that in his opinion, his exertions to reform the abuses in the naval department were highly meritorious. From the time he had first directed any pan of his attention to public affairs, he had seen reason to believe that naval abuses of the most flagrant description existed, and the noble lord deserved the gratitude of his country for his endeavours to extirpate them. The noble lord had fought our battles abroad bravely, successfully, and skilfully, and not satisfied with these exertions, he had set about the reform of abuses which were not only a disgrace to the board of admiralty, but a disgrace to the very character of the country. He thought the commission for promoting this great object an excellent one, and he should certainly vote for the motion.
Sir William Elford
admitted that the commissioners of naval enquiry had done some good, but thought that their enquiries ought not to be carried on as they are at present. They had erected themselves into a kind of criminal tribunal, and heard and condemned on
ex parte
The Chanceller of the Exchequer
said, that if the hon. member wished to arraign the conduct of the commissioners, the regular way would be, to move a day for the consideration of the reports on the table.
Sin William Elford
thought himself perfectly in order. He was only attempting to shew that the commission ought not to be continued as it was at present administered. The reports were such, that if published by any authority but that house, they would be deemed the rankest libels that ever were written. In one of them, there was a charge against a grand jury of
682
Mr. Sheridan
conceived the hon. baronet would have been out of order, if he had not come to the point he had just now laid down. Having charged the commissioners with abusing their powers, and having suggested the propriety of restricting them, the hon. baronet was called upon to substatitiate his charge of abuse, and to bring forward a specific motion for curtailing the powers. If the commissioners were to be abridged of their powers to detect and punish the foulest frauds and the most flagrant abuses, in the most important department of the public service, it was fit that the cause of that curtailment should be made out. It was natural to suppose some extraordinary cause for the rejection of a bill supported by direct evidence. A loose imputation should not be suffered to tarnish the credit or diminish the powers of men who had exercised those powers for the benefit of the country. He thought the hon. baronet called upon in the first instance to make good his charge, that the commissioners had abused their power, and then to move that those powers be abridged.
Sir W. Elford
justified himself by stating, that he did no more than cite the case from the 8th report of the commissioners of naval enquiry.
Mr. Grey
argued, that if there was, as the worthy baronet had insinuated, any fair charge against the commissioners for any of their Reports, this was not an evil for which no remedy existed. If any set of men had been injured, they were not without redress. If the commissioners had been guilty of any act of oppression, the house had the means of procuring to individuals improperly attacked full retribution. They could either recall or restrain powers which had been illegally or oppressively exercised. The hon. and learned gent, who had introduced the discussion had alluded to a variety of important subjects which remained for the investigation, of the commissioners, and the right hon. gent. opposite had not denied that these matters were extremely interesting in themselves, and deserving of serious inquiry. He had, however, thrown out a hint that there was reason to hope the investigation
683
Sir Charles Pole
feeling himself called on by an observation of the hon. member, rose purely for the purpose of replying to it. He admitted that many important objects of inquiry remained yet to be examined, which it would be impossible to complete during the present session from the numerous difficulties that would arise in consequence of the war. He could not kelp adding, that when the measure had been first introduced, on the suggestion of
684
Sir W. Elford
utterly disclaimed the slightest personal knowledge of the individuals to whom he had alluded. Nay, he had no connection whatever with them, and acted wholly on public grounds.
Sir Charles Pole
disclaimed any imputation calculated to make a question of the integrity of the motives of the hon. member for Plymouth. But the abuse of the naval commissioners came naturally from the constituents of the hon. baronet; for he did not believe that those commissioners were ever respectfully spoken of at the docks.
Admiral Markham
felt it impossible to sit still, without saying a few words on this subject. He had himself had the honour to introduce the bill into that house, and he enjoyed the best opportunities of beings acquainted with the intention of the noble lord who then presided over the naval department. That noble lord had undoubtedly not recommended the measure during the war, because he looked forward to a probable termination of it, and it was his intention to have its operations extended to the time that should be necessary for accomplishing its objects when it had been brought forward. He could state, and the Reports on the table would bear out his statement, that one-third of the naval expences of the country would be saved by an honest and upright discharge of the duties of the offices employed in their administration. This he believed in his conscience, and stated not on light grounds, He knew of some of those abuses now under investigation, which would astonish the house when reported to it. His hon. friend had stated, that there were many other branch, as to be investigated, such as the Victualling office, and the Sick and Wounded office which he had no hesitation in stating to be the most corrupt of all. He and every other officer of his majesty's navy had suffered by these abuses. There was also another measure, the prize-
685
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that notice had been given in the present session by a learned gent, (sir W. Scott), of his intention to bring in a bill for regulating prize agents.
Mr. Creevey
expressed himself in terms of the strongest approbation of the labours of the commissioners for naval enquiry. From what they had already disclosed of frauds on the public, the house and the country had every reason to augur most favourably of their future exertions. He hoped too, that their reports would not be suffered to lie useless on the table, but would be followed up by corresponding improvement. It was the more necessary to allude to this, for he had formerly seen reports of abuses in the naval department which were suffered to sink into complete oblivion. He could remember 20 years ago such reports, and to this, though improvements had been suggested, they had never been reduced to practice, nor had enquiries, of which there was much promise and strong expectation, produced one important result, except the satisfaction of knowing that the public had been grossly plundered. He was sorry to be under the. necessity to alluding to the
686
Mr. Fox
was clearly in favour of the original motion, and could not conceive on what grounds the motion for the order of the day could be supported. It was evident that the bill, if allowed to be good at all, could not fulfil its object previous to the expiration of the session. There was no force at all in the observation of the right hon. gent, opposite, that at this period of the session the renewal was unnecessary. The house could have no means of knowing when the session was to terminate. It might terminate exactly when it suited the whim or the interest of a minister. But was the house to be told that an act, on all hands allowed to be beneficial, to be renewed just at the period when it suited the minister, and not when it was called for by the public interest? The idea was monstrous, and not to be endured for a moment. If parliamentary inquiry was to be instituted at all, then let it be instituted in the true spirit of inquiry, and not dependent on a minister's arrangement. But the right hon. gent. had endeavoured to argue, that there probably might be no necessity for renewing the act. Now, what single tittle of evidence had been adduced to countenance such an opinion? It was contrary to every conjecture, and every probability.
687
688
Mr. Canning
spoke in favour of the amendment, but begged it to be understood, that in giving this vote be gave no opinion as to the policy of continuing the commission. Whenever this matter came to be canvassed, he should feel himself as not at all compromised by the vote he should give on the present occasion. A great deal had been said as to the intention of those who brought forward the measure, as to the time of its continuance. One hon. officer (Sir C. Pole) had declared his opinion, that it was not meant to be continued during a period of war. It was true that another hon. officer (Admiral Markham), had expressed his opinion that it was meant to be of unlimited duration, as long as there was any subject of inquiry not thoroughly investigated. Now, he contended, that with such opposite and contradictory opinions, in such a state of ambiguity, the house ought to pause before they came to any certain determination. This was precisely the object with the amendment he had in view. It was designed not to operate as a decision that the commission should be discontinued, but as a means of giving the house time to reflect to what period it should be extended, or whether it might not be possible to derive all the information required) without any renewal of the bill. Even allowing that parliament in the first instance intended that the bill should be extended to a period beyond what it would reach to without a new bill, the house now were not to be bound by such a determination. They were to be guided by dictates of policy and expediency. One hon. officer was of opinion that we ought by all means to preserve the commission in existence. Another hon. officer, equally well qualified to judge on the subject, thought, that during war, that operations
689
Mr. Fox
denied that he had used any taunting, language. If, in what he said, there was an appearance of taunt, it was not applied to the worthy baronet, whom, on the contrary, he praised for his fair and open dealing. If there was any thing of taunt, it applied to those who could hear arguments and approve them secretly, without having the courage openly to support them.
Sir Charles Pole
gave it as his opinion, that there were at present matters of the highest importance before the commissioners, and that, in all probability, their labours could not be ended within the session.
Mr. Bragge Bathurst
rose, not for the purpose of complying with the demand of any gentleman, whom he would not admit to have the right of personally requiring of him an explanation as to any change in his sentiments respecting the continuance of the commission, but to state his reasons for opposing the motion. After the candid manner in which the motion
690
Lord Henry Petty
did not see the necessity that in cases where great powers were confided by Parliament, the persons invested with those powers should be restricted in point of time. The proposal of his learned friend went no further than to give the bill the extent which it was now demonstrated to the satisfaction of the house it was originally intended it should have. He thought that parliament having once adopted the measure, was, in consistency, bound to continue it. There was little apprehension, that the ideas thrown out by some persons, respecting the danger which might result from the existence of such a commission, without any thing to operate upon, should ever be realised. The abuses which it was the object of it to discover and correct were numerous and notorious, and he hoped, that the advocates for passing strong measures, such as the suspension of the habeas corpus act in Ireland, upon the sole grounds of notoriety, would not deem themselves justifiable in opposing a measure founded on their own principles, and from the continuance of which it was universally allowed the public had derived the most extensive and important advantages.
691
Mr. I. H. Browne
said, that he gave great credit to the barriers of the bill when it was first introduced into the house, and the reports of the commisioners acting under it had confirmed him in the good opinion he had then formed of it. With every deference to the opinion of the hon. baronet who had so worthily acted under it, and every confidence in the promise of the right hon. gent. as to its continuance, he thought the measure so important and necessary that he could not but vote for the present motion.
Mr. Tierney
said, he was surprised, from the trifling, if any difference of opinion, which existed between both sides of the house upon the merits of this bill, that there should be any objection to a motion for its further continuance. It was allowed on all hands that the commissioners acting under this bill had, throughout the whole of their conduct, with the exception of one single instance only, deserved the highest praise. Why, then, should the house hesitate to invest such commissioners with the powers necessary to enable them to discharge their duty with full effect? In order to this, he thought the existence of their power should be stable, and not dependant on the duration of a session. As to the danger apprehended from such a commission during the existence of a war, he thought that the experience we had already had, was sufficient to remove that apprehension. The commission had originated in time of peace, but yet we had been at war during the greater part of its continuance, and yet no inconvenience whatever, appeared to have resulted from it, but quite the contrary; and it was his opinion, and that of many gallant and intelligent officers, that if it were interrupted in its progress before its investigations' should be completed, very great mischiefs would arise. An hon. baronet had stated, that if the object of the commission appeared to be unattainable before the expiration of the sessions, application would and ought to be then made for the continuance of the bill. But he would put it to the candid consideration of the house, whether, thinking as they and the public did, of the exertions of these commissioners, it would be decorous to limit them in point of time, or wait for their application to continue the act? Whether it would not be more becoming to be beforehand with them, and to renew the bill at once? His opinion was decidedly in favour of the latter
692
693
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
in explanation stated, that some gentlemen seemed to misunderstand his observations with respect to the reports from the commission to which the motion before the house referred. He had said, that there were many important suggestions in those reports; but he would not be understood at all to pledge himself, to take any particular proceeding in consequence of those suggestions. This was a consideration upon which he held himself free to make up his mind.—The question being called for, a division took place:
For Mr. Giles's motion,
75
For the amendment,
92—
Majority against the motion,
17
List of the Minority.
Adair, R.
Giles, D. (Teller)
Adam, Charles
Geary, Sir William
Annesley, F.
Graham, J.
Barclay, George
Grenfell, Pascoe
Barclay, Sir Robert
Grey, Hon. Charles
Bampfylde, Sir C.
Hamilton, Lord A.
Baker, W.
Hartopp, Sir E.
Barham, J. F.
Hughes, Wm Lewis
Bouverie, Hon. E.
Jekyll, J.
Brooke, C.
Jarvis, T.
Browne, J. H.
Johnstone, George.
Burton, F.
Keane, W.
Butler, Hon. C.
Lefevre, C. S.
Calcraft, J. (Teller)
Leigh, J. H.
Calvert, N.
Lemon, Sir W.
Cavendish, Lord G.
Liovd, J. M.
Cavendish, W.
Maddocks, W. A.
Chapman, Charles
MarKham, J.
Combe, H. C.
Martin, J.
Cooke, Bryan
Martin, R.
Creevey, Thomas
Milner, Sir W.
Dickins, F.
Moore, G. P.
Dundas, Hon. C. L.
Moore, P.
Dundas, Hon. G. H. L.
Morris, Edward
Dundas, Hon. L.
North, Dudley
Ebrington, Lord
Ord, Wm.
Fane, J.
Ossulston, Lord
Fellowes, Robert
Petty, Lord Henry
Fitzgerald, Rt. Hon. J.
Plumer, William
Fitspatrick, Rt. Hon, R
Raine, Jonathan
Folkestone, Visct.
Russell, Lord Wm.
Fonblanque, J,
St. John, Hon. St. A
Fox, Hon. C. J.
Sheridan, R. B.
Francis, P.
Smith, C.
694
Smith, Wm.
Tyrrwhitt, Thos.
Somerville, Sir M.
Walpole, Hon. G.
Spencer, Lord R.
Whitbread, S.
Temple, Earl
Young, Sir W.
Tierney, Rt. Hon. G.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 4, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The archbishop of Canterbury and the bishop of Norwich were sworn, and took their seats.—The bills, upon the table, all private, were forwarded in their respective stages; and one private; bill, brought up from the Commons, was. read a first time.—Earl Fortescue acquainted their lordships with his intention to bring forward a motion to-morrow, relative to certain persons dismissed from his majesty's dock yards; and moved that the Lords be summoned for that day which was ordered accordingly.—It was ordered, on the motion of Lord Walsingham, that a message be sent to the commons, desiring that the right hon. Sir John; Stewart may be permitted to attend a committee of their lordships, should he so think fit.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 4, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. White, clerk of the election committees, appeared at the bar, with the minutes of the select committee appointed to try the merits of the Knaresborough election, which was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—A gentleman from the Bank of England presented at the bar, an account of bank notes issued on the 15th of each month, from 15th Dec. 1803, to 15th Feb. 1805, distinguishing all those under 51. pursuant to an order of the house. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.—A message from the lords requested the attendance of the right hon. Sir John Stewart, bart. in order to give evidence before the committee of their lordships, in the affair of Judge Fox. The answer returned was, that sir John Stewart had the leave of the house to attend their lordships' committee if he thought fit.—Mr, Dickenson obtained leave to bring in a bill to punish mutiny and desertion in the navy.—Mr, Foster gave notice, that in the committee of supply, on Wednesday next, he should move the usual grants to Irish charities, &c. and that in the committee of ways and means on Monday he should bring forward the budget for Ireland.—?Mr. Creevey gave notice, that to-morrow se'nnight he would submit a motion to the house on the sub-
695
[MUTINY BILL.]
Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the committee, which was received, and the amendments agreed to.
The Secretary at War
took notice of two clauses, which had been proposed to be introduced into the bill by an hon. general opposite him (Fitzpatrick) he approved of the principle of those clauses, so far as their object was to give the greatest solemnity to the decisions of courts martial by the alterations it proposed of not permitting officers, under the age of 21, to have a seat, or at any rate from being president of a court martial. He had, however, considered it his duty to consult the opinions of several of the ablest officer's upon the alteration proposed; he had not yet been able to procure these opinions, and therefore should not wish at present to say any more of those clauses; he hoped, however, the hon. gent, would not object to the bill being now engrossed, and
696
General Fitzpatrick
had no objection to the bill being engrossed, and should reserve himself to a future stage, when he intended again to introduce these clauses.—The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be engrossed
[SALT DUTY BILL.]
On the motion being put, that the salt duty bill be read a second time,
Lord William Russell
said, the effect of this tax upon the labouring parts of the community, would be most deplorable. He confessed, he did hope that the second reading of the bill would have been deferred until gentlemen should have had lime fully to consider the report of the salt committee of a former session, which the house had, on a late day, ordered to be printed. The labours of that committee were valuable; and he hoped that the members who composed it would that night follow up the wise, humane, and patriotic resolutions, by opposing the present tax. By the report, it was obvious that the committee under the last administration purposed, by their report, to lead to the abolition of the tax on salt altogether. Salt was an article important to all descriptions, and as it was used by all for the most beneficial purposes, he trusted all descriptions of persons, in that house, would oppose the tax now sought to be laid on it. It would be recollected, that bread was a principal article of sustenance used by persons of all descriptions throughout the kingdom: now, by this tax it was unavoidable, that the price of bread should be raised; in fact, bread had been already risen an assize by the mere report of such a proposition. There was a petition, at that moment, before the house, from the baker's company, praying for relief, in consequence of various alterations in the, sources of their profits, and in particular because of this tax. Throughout the country the effect must unavoidably be the same. It would affect the price of salt used in all kinds of salt meat, so as to place them above the reach of the poor. Salt-fish was an extensive article of sustenance in many of the labouring parts of the kingdom; this would experience a rise of price amounting to little short of prohibition. The tax would entirely alter the condition of the lower orders. It would render them totally dependant on the affluent for support. It would prevent them from maintaining that state of independence which
697
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that the committee in the report which they gave in some years ago, and. which had been alluded to by the noble lord, proceeded on the ground of rendering salt applicable to many general purposes, among which was even that of manure. It was certainly their object to give facility to the circulation of that article, but the chief hindrance to a free circulation was the regulation which the duty necessarily demanded, and these regulations would equally affect, the circulation whether the duty amounted to 5, 10, or 15s. a bushel, so that the noble lord ought not to be satisfied with advising a rejection of a revenue of 500,000l. which the proposed additional duty would produce, but should proceed to advise the taking off the duty now 'existing, which produced a revenue amounting to double that sum. It was singular that the noble lord should call on those persons, who, when the country was at peace, approved the report of the committee, and yet did not venture to institute any measure upon it, to come forward, and in the midst of war declare their opinion on the present bill. The report had slept for 3 years, and the consideration of it was now urged, at a time, than which, none could be more unfit. The noble lord had asserted, that this tax pressed heavily on the poor. It was a most unpleasant thing for him to be under the necessity of imposing taxes which in any degree affected the lower classes, but he had a sacred duty to perform. We were engaged in a contest for the defence both of rich and of poor; supplies must be found; and no mode of raising them seemed to him so little liable to objection as the present. On the day when he first introduced this and his other measures of finance, it was objected by an hon. gent. that they did not fall sufficiently on articles of consumption. The noble lord had not been just in saying, that govt. had abandoned the interests of the lower classes. Let him look at the taxes from the year 1793 to the present time, and he would find that they have been in every instance
698
Mr. Fox
declared that he had seldom risen to give his opinion against any tax ' which appeared to him more objectionable. The right hon. gent. had asked why, if the suggestions of the committee on the salt duties were politic and expedient, they were not acted upon during the existence of peace? To this the answer was at once simple and conclusive. The house would recollect that the report was made in 1801, and it was only in that one session that the interval of peace gave any opportunity for bringing forward a proposition for the repeal of the salt duties. At that time those at the head of affairs, and those who brought forward the report, had hot time to make up their minds how far a bill for the repeal of the duties was expedient, or in what manner the deficiency arising to
699
700
Mr. Egerton
said, he had received the most positive instructions from his constituents in Cheshire, to oppose a measure always so injurious to their interest, at the
701
Mr. Giddy
also spoke shortly against the tax. From his own intimate experience, he was sure that it would be highly detrimental to the fisheries. When the last tax on salt was imposed, over a great extent of coast, the curing of fish was for a considerable time almost wholly suspended. In many parts of the country where the people almost wholly lived on salt provisions, the tax would be productive of much serious inconvenience, even misery. He strongly recommended the substitution of some other tax in its room, as the present was unjust in its principle, and impolitic as well as oppressive in its operation.
Sir William Pulteney
was decidedly against the measure. He had no doubt that if the war had not broken out, the suggestions of the committee on the salt duties would have been carried into effect. The only question was; if the salt duties had been repealed, what other duties should be resorted to to cover so great a deficiency in the revenue? The argument of the right hon. gent, opposite, that the tax would not be oppressive, because it would only make an addition of 4 or 5 shillings to each family, was totally unfounded. The fact was, it would create an addition to this amount in every individual of a family, and would any one deny that this would be a most heavy and serious pressure? Hitherto it had been the object of the house to exempt from taxation all articles of indispensable necessity to the sustenance of life. Other articles of convenience or luxury might be given up, but here, it was proposed to lay a very severe impost on an article admitted on all hands to be an article of primary necessity, and one which was essential not to the comfort only, but the very existence of the lower orders. Salt was like leather, and candles, and a few other articles, which only deserved the name of necessaries in the strictest sense of the term. The house were aware that a tax on such articles was attended with inconveniences far greater than the bare amount of the impost in the first instance. The moment the tax was promulgated the, retail dealer took advantage of raising the article taxed to a vast tax for the consumer. This rise was in all cases exceedingly oppressive to the
702
Mr. Rose
would not follow the hon. baronet through all his observations on the public expenditure and economy. He had expressed great alarm lest the additional duty should decrease the consumption, but he could inform him that the last duty laid upon salt had had the effect of of increasing the consumption. Ah hon. gent. on the other side (Mr. Pox) had been most egregiously misled in the calculation he had submitted to the house of the quantity of salt necessary for salting pork. He had been informed by his cook, that for a bacon hog of 14 score not more than 13 or 14 pounds of salt was necessary. As to finding a substitute for this tax, it was utterly impossible to find a substitute for a tax that produced a revenue of a million sterling. It was very easy for gentlemen to abuse any tax that might be Offered for their consideration, but he was convinced that under all the circumstances of the times, no one could be found less exceptionable than the present.
Mr. Fox,
in explanation, said, that it
703
Mr. Rose
explained, that his calculation went to the whole, of bacon hogs salted for the use of his family.
Mr. Alderman Combe
alledged, that the wholesale dealers would make this tax a pretext for an enormous rise on the retail dealer, and consequently on the consumer, and he also wished to correct a mistake into which the chancellor of the exchequer had fallen; namely, that it would have no effect upon the price of bread. It was very true, that by the former act the price of bread was regulated according to that of flour only; but, by the last act, every article of expence to which the baker was subjected was taken into account, and the price of bread for the week regulated accordingly.
The Secretary at War
wished also to correct a misstatement made by the hon. baronet (sir Wm. Pulteney) when he said that the new tax would be an addition of 4s. on each individual of a family; whereas, by referring to the consumption of salt, and comparing it with the population of the country, it would be found to amount to no more, on an average, than 4s. a year upon each family, and not on each individual.
Mr. Huskisson
replied, that Scotland had not been subject to more than 4s. duty, when England paid ten, and that the whole amount of the duty for Scotland never exceeded 50,000l.
Mr. Johnstone
vidicated the statement of his hon. relation (sir W. Pulteney), that this sum must apply to individuals and not to families. In the report of the committee on the salt duties it was stated, that each person on an average consumed 14 pounds of salt in the year, and this by the old tax made 2s. 6d. The new tax would make 1s. 3d. more, being nearly the sum alluded to by his hon. relation. He was clearly against the tax, and maintained that it would hold out new temptations to smuggling, which, in the northern parts of the island, was already carried to au enormous extent.—The question being called for, the house divided,
For the second reading now
93
Against it
60
Majority
33
704
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 5, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The bills upon the table were forwarded in their respective stages.—One of the masters in chancery reported the answer of the house of commons to their lordships' message, desiring the permission of the house to the right hon. sir John Stewart, bait, one of its members, to attend a committee of their lordships, importing, that the house had granted permission accordingly. Sir John Stewart was afterwards sworn at the bar, with respect to his proposed evidence before the committee of their lordships, to whose consideration the matters alleged in charge against Mr. Justice Fox were referred.— Lord Mulgrave, seeing a noble baron in his place, on whose motion their lordships stood summoned for Friday next, For the discussion of a subject of considerable importance, observed, that it would tend greatly to the convenience of several noble lords, were the noble baron, should it make no material difference to him, to postpone his intended motion until the following Monday. Lord King, in reply adverted to what had already taken place with respect to postponing the discussion in question; it had been twice posponed, and very lately on the requisition of a noble lord, a colleague of the noble secretary's. His lordship alluded to the inconvenience it would be to several noble lords on his side of the house, were the discussion farther postponed. He was willing to make every reasonable concession to the convenience of noble lords; but, as the present case stood, he should, unless some strong reason for a further postponement were assigned, adhere to his intention of bringing forward his motion on Friday.— Lord Walsingham acquainted their lordships, that he should have to-morrow, a proposition to submit to the house, respecting a power hi the committee to whom the matters alleged in charge against Mr. Justice Fox was referred, to report from time, to to time, &c. And moved, that their lordships be summoned on the occasion; which was ordered accordingly.—Mr. Alexander brought up from the commons, the additional postage duties bill, and the new loan bill, which were severally read a first time.—Adjourned.
705
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 5, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Baker obtained leave to bring in a bill for enabling Mr. Bowyer, proprietor of the Historic Gallery, in Pail-Mall, to dispose of the same by way of lottery or chances.—Mr. Williams, from the board of naval inquiry, presented a. copy of the correspondence between that board and the admiralty, on the subject of the papers relating to the squadron under sir Home Popham, with the dates of the papers, and the examinations taken before the commissioners of naval inquiry. Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. —Mr. May gave notice, that on Thursday next he should move for leave to bring in a bill for the repeal of the duty of 61. per cent, imposed upon the imports of the retail dealers in Ireland.—Mr. Dickenson brought up the marine mutiny bill, which was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time to-morrow.—Sir J. B. Warren brought up a petition from the town and corporation of Birmingham, praying for a repeal of the late corn bill; which was ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Young, from the customs brought up an account of the tonnage and number of ships employed in the We6t India trade during the last year. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Alexander brought up the report of the resolutions of the committee on the expiring laws; and obtained leave to bring in a bill on them.—Mr. Forster brought up an account of the ordinary and extraordinary revenues of Ireland, from the 1st of Jan. 1804, to the 1st of Jan. 1805, with several other accounts, preparatory to the Irish budget; which were ordered to be printed.—Mr. Huskisson moved, that there be laid before the house, a copy of the warrant for granting any rents, leases, or other grants of the Lordships of Fife and Strathern, in Scotland, to the hon. John Hope, in trust for lady Jane Melville; as also accounts of the balances and arrears due from the rents of said lordships and manors by the late John Crawford, Esq. deceased; which being a-greed to, the account was presented, and ordered to lie on the table. He also brought up, an account of the charges and discharges on the said rents, and a return to the order of the 12th of Feb. last, giving an account of the balances remaining in the hands of John Hamilton, Esq. receiver-general of the customs in Scotland; which were ordered to lie on the table,—
706
[CORN REGULATION BILL.]
Petitions were presented by lord Archibald Hamilton, from Lanerk, Ruthuglen, and other places in Scotland, praying a repeal of the corn act of last session.
The Secretary
at War took occasion to call the attention of the house to the subject of those petitions. It appeared to him that the petitioners complained of the evils of a, bill, which, in point of fact, had not yet come into action. The bill was hot to operate until corn was at a certain price; and as no such case had yet occurred, he thought the people were deluded, and persuaded to feel a grievance of which they had yet had no experience.
Lord Archibald Hamilton
vidicated the right of the people to petition even where, the evil of which they complained was but likely to arise. In this case, however, the evil was actually experienced. The very passing of the act had done considerable mischief. It had created an alarm that had not yet subsided. It had raised the price of corn. But, even supposing that it had not produced that effect, if the object of the bill were exception able, it was of course such as the people were entitled to deprecate, and against which it was their right, interest, and duty to. petition.
Sir W Elford
stated the object of the act to which the petitions referred, to be to promote agriculture by encouraging the farmers. But as the act had not yet been in operation, he maintained that the price of corn was not fairly attributable to it, and that corn would have been, from various circumstances, at its present rate, if that act had never existed. This he thought it necessary to mention, as a great delusion, had gone forth among the people
707
[ORDERS OF THE DAY.]
Mr. Charles Wynne
observed, that an hour had elapsed after the usual time of meeting, and yet no progress had been made with the public business. Without meaning any thing harsh; therefore, he proposed to move the house to proceed, with the orders of the day, as considerable inconvenience was felt by gentlemen: from such delays.
Mr. Fuller
said, if the public business was thus unnecessarily delayed, it would be difficult for a member to get a dinner more than one day in the week.
Mr. Huskisson
replied, that there had been no delay of business on this day, and that, he had been at the bar to present certain papers that had been ordered by the house, when the motion was made by the hon. member. He appealed to the expedience of those gentlemen who were longest acquainted with the procedings of the house, whether five o'clock was not the usual time of proceeding with the public business.
Mr. C. Wynne
stated, that four o'clock was the hour appointed for meeting, and that it had frequently been half past five, during the present session, before public business was proceed with. The house could not be formed without 40 members, and when 40 members came down at four o'clock, he submitted whether it was not extremely inconvenient to keep them waiting till half past five.
Mr. Martin (of Tewkesbury)
declared, that there had been an extreme waste of time lately, and that the delay was highly disrespectful to the house, and to the chair.
[MUTINY BILL.]
The Secretary at War
proceeded to move the third reading of the mutiny bill. In making this motion he was afraid that lie should disappoint the expectation of the hon. officer on the other side, (general Fitzpatrick) as he was not prepared to submit the propositions which that hon. officer recommended on a former flay. For himself, he was ready to confess, that those propositions appeared to be perfectly reasonable. They were, according to his recollection, that the members of regimental courts martial should be sworn, that they should be authorized to administer oaths to witnesses, &c. and that no president of such a court martial should be under 21 years of age. However, al-
708
General Fitzpatrick
said, that in consequence of the conference he had had with the right hon. gent. and the obvious justice and necessity of the propositions he suggested, which met that right hon. gent.'s entire concurrence, he had thought it unnecessary to trespass on the attention of the house, by stating the grounds upon which he was urged to submit those propositions. Those grounds were such as he had very little doubt would convince the majority of the house of the propriety of adopting the amendments he proposed. He had, indeed, never heard any serious objection urged against them. It therefore struck him as rather extraordinary, after the declared coincidence of the right hon. gent, to be told that some military officers entertained doubts upon the subject. No doubt was expressed by any person of that house; not a sentence of objection was heard from any member; and yet those salutary improvements, for the adoption of which policy, humanity, and justice equally called, were to be rejected or delayed, because some military officers doubted. How, he would ask, were the objections of such military persons to be brought before the house in a parliamentary form? and the mere statement of their objections, unaccompanied by any reason for such objections, was not, he contended, a parliamentary ground for the delay on the promotion of any measure. The time required in the opinion of the right hon. gent, to deliberate upon the propositions he had felt it his duty to recommend, was attainable in his judgment, with out proposing the alteration the right hon. gent, alluded to,
709
Colonel Stuart
thought the principle of the propositions recommended by the hon. officer ought to be carried farther, and that the degrees of punishment to be inflicted by regimental courts martial ought to be limited. The number of members on such courts martial ought, in his opinion, to be in no case less than 7, unless where a field officer presided, and, in such case, not less than 5. This was a regulation, which appeared to him highly necessary, but he particularly enforced the propriety of prohibiting the sentences of regimental courts martial from inflicting beyond a certain degree of punishment, not more than 2 or 300 lashes.
The Secretary at War
expressed his readiness to assist the right hon. officer in drawing up the clauses wish respect to the propositions he mentioned, and in which he perfectly concurred. He also assented to his wish for postponing the motion, and should therefore move the third reading on Monday next.
Sir Eyre Coote
cordially approved the propositions of the right hon. officer, and thought that no officer should be admitted a member of any court martial who was under 21 years of age. This alteration would, he was persuaded, be very grateful to the feelings and conducive to the interests of the army.—The order for the third reading of the bill was postponed till Monday.
[SALT DUTY BILL.]
On the motion that the Speaker do leave the chair; in order to go into a committee op the salt duty bill,
710
Mr. Johnstone
rose, not, he said to-repeat the general arguments on this measure, which the house had heard so forcibly urged yesterday, but to call the attention of gentlemen to the operation of the salt tax in Scotland. When this tax was imposed in 1795, it was reduced in Scotland from 6s. 6d. to 4s. per bushel. This reduction took place in consequence of a consideration of the peculiar circumstances of the people of that country. Now, he wished to understand how it was proposed to draw the additional tax contained in this bill from a country so circumstanced. If in 1795 it was incapable of paying more than 4s. per bushel, why was it now deemed capable of affording 9s.? Considering, indeed, the situation of Scotland fully and fairly, it was his opinion that it. would be much wiser to remit the salt duty in that country altogether. That duty produced but 47,0001. per annum, and there was a bounty allowed from the excise amounting to 29,000l. which, with a considerable; bounty from the customs, exceeded the produce of the tax. For these reasons, he submitted, that a repeal of the duty as to Scotland would be not less advantageous, to the revenue than to the people of Scotland. If so, then, bow could ministers justify the imposition of a farther salt tax upon that country?
Mr. Huskisson
stated the reason for the former reduction of the salt tax in favour of Scotland to be this, that as the Scotch people manufactured their salt from sea water, they were subject to an increased expence for fuel. On that account this allowance was made, which it was still proposed to continue, and he contended, there, fore, that the people of Scotland had no reason to complain. As to the produce of the revenue arising from the salt duty in Scotland contrasted with the bounty, he admitted that it was not considerable; but then its reduced amount proceeded from the frauds that were known to exist, and the smuggling with Ireland, If, however, the hon. gent., would look into the, bill before the house, he would see that such provisions were introduced into it as were calculated effectually to prevent those frauds in future.—A. division took place upon the motion, ayes, 128; noes, 58 5 rnajority,70.
[PROPERTY TAX BILL.]
The house resolved itself into a committee on the property tax bill.
Earl Temple
gave notice, that he would to-morrow more for the exemption of mi-
711
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
announced his intention of opposing any proposition for the exemption of any class of men from this tax, as contrary to the spirit and equity of the measure, and calculated to undermine the whole contribution.
Sir John Newport
called the attention of the committee to this tax, as it affected the property in the funds, belonging to persons resident in Ireland. This, he conceived, to be contrary to the principle of the union, which, proposed to leave the resources of each country applicable to the treasury of that country. It would be also contrary to the policy which dictated an exemption in favour of the funded property of foreigners, which arose from a wish to induce foreigners to vest their money in our funds. The operation of this, tax with respect to persons resident in Ireland would, he observed, be still more severe, for this reason, that according to the act, the English agent would be obliged to make a return of the whole property of his principal, and thus the same person might be subject to the payment of the same tax in both countries. Under those circumstances, the hon. baronet proposed a clause to exempt from the tux such property in the funds as belonged to persons who pay the hearth money and the window tax in Ireland.
Mr. Alexander
did not think the object of the lion, baronet attainable in the, way he proposed.
Sir John Newport
stated, that when he before mentioned the subject, he was told that the committee would be the proper place' to bring forward this proposition
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that the proposition of the hon. baronet could not be entertained, as no previous instruction to the committee had been voted. As to the proposition itself, he was surprised to hear it stated, that it involved a violation of the principle of the union. It was not less agreeable to that principle than to the precepts of common equity, that the property in each country should be subject to the taxation, and appropriate to the treasury of that country. This was precisely what this tax, objected to by the hon. bart. proposed; and, on the same principle, the property in the funds of Ireland, belonging, to persons resident in this country, would be subject to the taxation, and applicable to the purposes of that country, should it be through proper to lay a tak on
712
Sir John Newport
persisted in maintaining that it was contrary to the principle of the union to draw these resources from the use of Ireland which would be otherwise sent into it. Independently of this ground of objection, however, he claimed' the exemption he proposed, upon the same principle as that which induced the house to exempt the funded property of foreigners. Unless the property of the latter were deemed more sacred than that of the Irish, he saw no reason why this proposition should be resisted. If the hon. gent. should persist in opposing his object, he declared he would move to expunge from the bill the exemption in favour of foreigners.
Mr. Bankes
brought up a clause, to exempt from the payment of this tax all lands, money, or other property, vested in trustees for the use of almshouses, or other charitable purposes only.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that he should shortly have occasion to move for leave to bring in another bill relating to regulations which would give his hon. friend an opportunity of submitting this exemption; but, if he thought proper to offer it now, he did not suppose it would meet with any opposition.—The clause was then brought up and, agreed to, and the bill having passed the committed, was ordered to be reported to-morrow.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 6, 1805.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.]
Lord walsingham,
as chairman of the committee, to whom it was referred to consider of and investigate the various matters alleged in the charge against Mr. Justice Fox, came forward, pursuant to his notice of yesterday, and of a resolution of the committee. He adverted generally to the serious and uniform attention which the lords committees had paid to the important subject under their consideration; and
713
The Earl of Carlisle
expressed his disapprobation of the motion. He was adverse from the mode of offering any partial reports to the house upon the subject. He rather thought the committees should be instructed to withhold all reports until the whole of the charges against the accused should be gone through. The course generally adopted by grand juries would be the best to adopt in the present instance, which was to consider of, investigate, find, or throw out all the bills brought before them, instead of deciding upon any one, two, or three separate charges of what they might have to consider. He thought the duty imposed upon the committee, in the present instance, was similar to that which grand juries of the country had to fulfil. In considering the question then before the house, the situation of the accused, one of a very serious nature ought to be considered; the possibility of his being brought to the bar upon any one or two of the charges, while the rest may be pending or undecided, the situation of the accused person's mind, on such an occasion, was worthy of consideration. Added to this, was that of the contingency of his being voted guiltless of the particular charges reported to the house, and no opinion being subsequently stated, or decision made as to the remaining charges; a contingency, which, he thought, in point of fairness to the individual, as well as in justice to the public at large, ought to be seriously considered, and, in his opinion, was worthy of being made the subject of a specific motion.
Lord Hawkesbury
observed, that it was certainly irregular to allude, in the house, to what passed in discussion in a committed, otherwise he might particularly call to the recollection of the noble earl, that the resolution, on which the motion before the house was grounded, was not adopted without the most nature and de-
714
The Earl of Carlisle
spoke in explanation. He repeated his idea of the possibility of their lordships having, in consequence of the report of the committee upon some particular charge, to put the accused upon his trial; and, in the event of his being acquitted, and no opinion or decision being given or made, as to the other matters in charge, or, at least, in a way that such could go forth to the world; such a consideration may operate unfavourably with respect to the accused. In this point of view, he thought that some proceeding, obligatory upon the committee to go through the whole should be adopted.
Lord Grenville
thought the merits of the question now regularly before the house,
715
The Lord Chancellor
observed, that the noble lord who had just sat down had exactly expressed his sense of the question before the house. The committee were left at full liberty to proceed as they should think fit, and the house would retain its option to adopt or reject the opinion of the committee.—The question was then put, and the motion carried.
[DISMISSALS FROM THE DOCK-YARDS.]
Earl Fortescue
brought forward the motion, of which he had given notice on a former evening, upon this subject. The noble earl called to the recollection of the house the circumstance of the disturbances which took place in the county of Devon, in the spring of the year 1801; about which time, a species of mutiny existed in certain of his majesty's dock-yards. To these his attention had been called in his official capacity of lord lieutenant of that county; the then high prices of corn and other articles of provision were held out as the pretext, and, perhaps, might, in some degree, be the cause. In the course of the disturbances, several acts of violence took place, and it shortly appeared that the parties were actuated by motives distinct from those which had been held out as the pretexts. The contagion was spread to the dock-yards, where it operated in a manner the most dangerous. In its progress, plans of communication with the royal dock-yards in other quarters, and committees of correspondence were established, for the purpose of enforcing the claims of the refractory artificers, He had done whatever lay in his power to satisfy those persons, and to allay the dis-
716
717
Lord Melville
apologised for his absence yesterday. He had been, he observed, but of town, and had not heard of the noble earl's intended motion, in time to arrive at the proper hour yesterday. He hoped their lordships would deem him incapable of any thing that might, however remotely, appear disrespectful, either to their lordships in general, or to any individual peer; more especially on a question in which, to a certain degree, his own conduct might appear to be implicated. Upon the motion of the noble earl, after what he had perused, he had little to say, as it was not his intention to resist, substantially, the production of what was required; and, for reasons similar to those assigned by the noble earl, he should refrain from entering into any detailed considerations of what had been referred to. In doing this, he felt but one reluctance, which was, that, as the noble earl had avoided speaking of himself as little as possible, in which he followed the same line which had distinguished all his life, he should have no opportunity of reciting circumstances, which would redound so greatly to the noble earl's honour, in his capacity of lord lieutenant of the county of Devon. In another point of view, he was of opinion, that, to enter into the details alluded to, would be improper, as it might produce mischief, but could possibly produce no good. Upon that ground, if any thing had dropped from the noble earl, tending to shew a disposition to make the result a subject of farther enquiry or
718
Earl St. Vincent
expressed his opinion, that the considerations adverted to by the noble earl were of great importance, and the country was highly indebted to him for his conduct upon the occasion; were it not for the temperate and firm tone of his measures, the whole county of
719
Earl Fortescue
spoke in explanation. He came forward entirely from a sense of public duty. With respect to the objection of the noble viscount, he was inclined to believe, that the names of many of the individuals would not be accurately set forth. Persons so circumstanced were not unfrequeutly in the habit of changing their names. He did not think the proposed alteration of much importance, and therefore had no objection to the amendment.
Earl St. Vincent
seemed to think the proposed alteration would make a very material difference. The names were important to be specified, as without them it was morally impossible their lordships could be accurately informed.
Lord Melville
then moved, as amendments to the motion, that the words "of the names of" be left out, and to insert the words "of the number of, together with the respective trades and occupations," in their room; and also a corresponding amendment in the second part of the motion. These amendments were agreed to by their lordships, who ordered the information, as specified in the amended motion, to be laid before the house.
[IRISH HABEAS CORPUS SUSPENSION BILL.]
Lord King
generally called the attention of their lordships to the subject of which the measure of suspending the Habeas Corpus act in Ireland formed so prominent a part. He adverted to the circumstance of the bill being rapidly passed through that house, and contended, that sufficient information, or grounds, had pot been laid before the house, for the enactment of such a measure; a branch of the information, which, on glancing at the general subject, he conceived necessary, respected the transactions which had not long since taken place at the prison of Kilmainham. His lordship then in substance moved, that there be laid before the house a copy of the depotions of certaiin prisoners confined in the gaol of Kilmanham, taken before three judges of his majesty's court of king's bench in Ireland, who sat in the
720
Lord Hawkesbury
expressed his wish, that the noble baron would postpone the motion, for a short time, as at present he was not prepared to say whether or not he ought to object to it. It was one of that particular nature, as obviously required some previous consideration or inquiry. He, therefore, wished his lordship would not press it.
Lord King
replied, he thought the subject matter of the motions was of a nature so clearly unobjectionable, as that he was surprised any opposition could be offered to it. He recollected what transpired on his recently agreeing to postpone another motion. For the present he seemed inclined to press it.
Lord Hawkesbury,
in explanation, begged the noble baron to recollect that the motion alluded to as postponed was so deferred as his own act. On the present occasion, feeling that he was not prepared to give a decided opinion as to the merits of the motion, he would move the house to adjourn.
The Lord Chancellor
said a few words in support of what had fallen from his noble friend. The question of adjournment was then put.
Lord Grenville
rose, and defended the observations of his noble friend. He considered the information required by the motion as unobjectionable, and necessary to be laid before the house; with a reference to the extraordinary powers vested in government by the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act in Ireland, there could exist no doubt, that what had appeared, on an inquiry so constituted as that specified in the motion, was fit to be laid before that house. He thought it hard, when that part of the united kingdom was deprived of the benefit of the Habeas Corpus Act, that all relevant information, as hitherto called for, should be withheld. Were these denials persisted in, it would look as if they were inclined to abandon all constitutional controul on the exercise of such extraordinary powers as were now vested in ministers. They refused even to consider the state of the jails in that part of the united kingdom—a consideration they ware the more bound to do, as connected with an act recently passed by themselves.
The Lord Chancellor
observed, no man could possibly lament the necessity of suspending the Habeas Corpus act more than
721
that
what
The Earl of Derby
expressed his opinion, that the positions advanced by the noble and learned lord, and his noble friend opposite to him, were as extraordinary positions as he had ever heard advanced in that house. It was the duty of ministers, particularly of the secretary of state for the home department, to be so informed with respect to subjects like that in question, as to be able to declare, at the moment, whether the motion was objectionable or not. It was extraordinary to see a secretary of state not informed upon such an occasion.
Lord Hawkesbury,
in reply to the animadversions of the noble earl, insisted that the house was placed in a very extraordinary situation, by the conduct of the noble baron, in the present instance. Though not called for by their lordships orders, yet, in common courtesy to the house, a motion, which obviously called for consideration or enquiry, should not be passed, unless previous notice of it had been given. Such a motion as the present, he contended, required time to consider whether, under all the circumstances of the case, it should be agreed to or not. Time should be afforded for consulting with those whom it
722
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 6, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The clerk of the crown attended, and erased the name of G. B. Mainwaring from the return for the county of Middlesex, and inserted in its place that of sir Francis Burdett.—Sir J. Anderson moved, that the freeholders of the county of Middlesex should have the liberty of appealing within fourteen days against the election of Sir F. Burdett, if they thought fit. Ordered.—Mr. Bowyer's lottery bill was read a first, and ordered to be read a second time.—Sir J. Anderson obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend the former laws for regulating the assize of bread, and profits of the bakers.—Sir C. Price presented a petition from several merchants in London, requesting a repeal of the 6 per cent. duty paid by the Irish retailers on goods imported into Ireland. Ordered to be laid on the table.—The house then resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Foster proposed several sums of money for various miscellaneous services and charitable institutions in Ireland, which were agreed to. Amongst Others, the sum of 7,056l. for defraying the expences of advertisements and proclamations in the Dublin Gazette.—Mr. Fitzgerald and Sir J. Newport objected to this item of expence, as affording a species of influence to certain agents of govt. and operating as a bonus to certain newspaper writers and editors in favour of govt.—Mr. Foster defended the appropriation of the money, and stated it to be the usual sum which had been annually voted year after
723
[REPEAL OF THE ADDITIONAL FORCE BILL.]—
Mr. Sheridan
rose, and spoke nearly to the following effect:—I rise, sir, in pursuance of the notice I gave, on a former day, to submit to the house a motion for the repeal of a bill, passed last session of parliament, intituled, "an act for the additional defence of the kingdom, &c." I choose to give the whole of the title of this bill, rather than to be studious of brevity, though it might certainly give me an opportunity of complimenting the feelings of the right hon. gent. by describing it in its usual appellation, as Mr. Pitt's parish defence bill. When I gave my notice of this motion, I could not help observing, that it appeared to excite some surprise on the part of some gentlemen opposite; a surprise not unmixed with marks of disapprobation of a nature not the most orderly. I have been endeavouring to account for these symptoms of surprise and disapprobation. Did the hon. gentlemen
724
725
726
727
728
729
730
In Jan. 1804 the whole of our army amounted to
191,099
In Jan. 1805 the whole of our army amounted to
143,651
Deficiency
41,448
In Jan. 1804 the Militia
109,947
In Jan. 1805 the Militia
85,519
Deficiency
24,428
Total of army and militia in Jan. 1804
301,046
Total of army and militia in Jan. 1805
229,170
Deficiency
71,876
The Cavalry in Jan. 1804
11,177
The Cavalry in Jan. 1805
21,223
Increase
4,046
The Artillery in Jan. 1804
7,661
The Artillery in Jan. 1805
8,517
Increase
856
The Foreign Troops in 1804
13,710
The Foreign Troops in 1805
21,028
Increase
7,318
731
732
733
734
735
736
737
738
739
740
741
742
743
744
de novo.
745
746
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose, and spoke as follows: It is not my intention, sir, to follow the hon. gent. through all
747
748
749
750
751
752
753
754
755
756
757
758
759
760
761
762
Mr. Windham
said, he could not help remarking, how very naturally arid willingly the fight hon. gent, had deviated from the subject before the house, and had made excursions from it to other topics with which it was by no means connected. The right hon. gent, had first endeavoured to point out diversities of opinion between him and his hon. friend who opened the debate, and then between him and himself, on former occasions. On the former of those supposed diversities of opinion, the right hon. gent, had remarked with such violence, as must have induced persons who had not heard the speech of his hon. friend who opened the business, to suppose that he had attempted to conceal that any such diversity Subsisted. Such, however, was well known to the house, and such had been particularly marked by his hon. friend this night in opening the debate. There was nothing inconsistent in his hon. friend, who thought a variety of force was not detrimental to the military service of the country, and in him who thought otherwise, agreeing, that there was nevertheless a necessity for going into a committee on the military defence of the country. It had been stated by him the other night, that the volunteers were not the force on which we ought at present to rely alone, and sin this opinion, he had reason to believe his hon. friend and he were not so much at variance as was generally imagined. That, however,
763
764
765
766
767
General Norton
said, he wished the bill to be adhered to.
Mr. Langham
said, he would vote for the repeal of the bill; but in doing so, he should not pledge himself to vote against the administration.
Colonel Stewart
spoke in favour of the bill, until an entire new plan should be introduced for improving the army.
Mr. Whitbread
said, he should not have risen to trouble the house but for the pointed allusions made by the right hon. the Chancellor of the exchequer to his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), whose convincing speech, however, he had not attempted to answer. He wished, therefore, that the house should not go away impressed with the statements of the right hon. gent, which were for the greater part incorrect. The house might also wish to hear the sentiments of the noble lord (Castlereagh) who formed a part of the last administration, as well as the opinion of the hon. and learned gent, opposite to him (the attorney general), on an interesting subject of this nature, and one on which they had already addressed the house. The right hon. the chancellor the exchequer had confined him-self-ajmost entirely to denying the detail submitted by his hon. friend (Mr. Sheridan) and gave up the principal of the measure;
768
769
770
Mr. Bragge Bathurst,
in reply to the hon. gent's, (Mr. Sheridan's) appeal to the friends of the late minister, thought it right to observe that it did not follow, because a measure had been opposed before it received the sanction of parliament, that it should also be opposed afterwards, He appealed to the house, whether such had been the practice of parliament, or whether opposition, in the first instance, was supposed to imply the necessity of continued resistance? Most of the measures which many gentlemen thought to be objectionable at first, were amended in their progress through the house; and consequently, when stamped with the approbation of parliament, were entitled to concurrence and support. As to the present subject, the question appeared to be, whether it had received a fair trial; but he thought not; and therefore that it should not be repealed on light ground. If he were asked whether he preferred the army of reserve to the defence bill, he should answer in the affirmative; but it could not be inferred, in sound reasoning, that he ought therefore to oppose the latter. Before he assented to the repeal of the present bill, or rather before he was called on to do so, it was the duty of the gentlemen who proposed it to bring forward their plan, in order that he might be able to decide on its superior efficacy and advantages. If this bill fee repealed, there is no substitute for it as
771
772
Lord Archibald Hamilton
observed, that he should support the motion for repealing the bill, from a thorough conviction of its inefficiency. It tended directly to destroy the recruiting system, which was proved from the circumstance of the regimental officers having been as successful as could be wished, till this bill had been introduced into the parishes, when all the sources of supplying the army in the ordinary way were instantly dried up. It had defeated itself completely, and when compared with the promises made, must be acknowledged to be quite nugatory.
Mr. Fuller
disapproved of the speech of the right lion. gent. (Mr. Windham) who seemed to be an enemy to-the volunteer system; but any man who could entertain such an hostile opinion, would say that black was white, or white was black; res non verba, he looked to; his wish was not to have flourishing speeches, but substantial measures; he should vote therefore, for the repeal, from the impossibility of carrying the act into execution.
Mr. Tierney
thought it necessary to say a few words, after the example of a right hon. friend of his (Mr. B. Bathurst). He disclaimed any idea of giving a factious opposition to the govt.; but he felt it incumbent on him to declare, that with all the consideration he had been enabled to give the additional force act, if the repeal of it depended upon his single vote, he should think it his duty to vote in the affirmative, and upon grounds that were perfectly satisfactory to his own mind. Conscientiously speaking, he was firmly convinced of the wisdom of the military plans of that administration with which he had been connected; and as this bill went to render null the whole of them, he thought him-
773
Mr. Fox.
—Sir; at this late hour, and after the very ample discussion this subject has already obtained, I shall detain the house but for a very few moments. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Bragge Bathurst) has said, that it is not fair to ask him to state upon his honour what would have been his
774
775
776
777
778
779
Lord Castlereagh.
—It is not my intention,
780
onus
781
Mr. Johnstone
rose, he said, for the purpose of pointing out several fallacies in the statement made by the noble lord, but a general call for the question prevented us from correctly hearing the hon. gent.'s calculations.
Mr. Sheridan
then rose to reply, and spoke nearly as follows:—After the attentive hearing with which I was honoured in the former part of the evening, I think the house will do me the credit to believe that it is not my intention to trespass much on their time at this late period. I shall, however, avail myself of the privilege granted to the opener of a motion, to say a few words in reply to the objections which have been started against the motion which I have had the honour to submit to the house. I can assure the house, that what I have to say shall be short, for though I value volunteering very highly, I certainly am not over zealous to reply to speeches which were totally destitute of any thing in the shape of argument. I was not sur-
782
783
Nec Deus intersit, nisi dignus vindice nodus
784
The jolly God in triumph comes,
Sound the trumpets, beat the drums.
785
For Mr. Sheridan's motion
127
Against it
267
Majority against the motion
140
Adjourned at half past three on Thursday morning.
List of the Minority
Adair, R.
Barlow, F. W.
Andover, Viscount
Bouverie, Hon. E.
Andrews, Miles P.
Brogden, J.
Anson, Thomas
Brooke, C.
Astley, Sir J.
Bunbury, Sir T. C.
Babington, T.
Byng, George
Bagenel, Walter
Calcraft, J.
Baker, W.
Calvert, J.
Bamfylde, Sir C.
Cavendish, Lord G.
Barclay, George
Caulfield, Hon. H.
786
Chapman, Charles
Maddocks, W. A.
Coke, Dan. P.
Markham, J.
Combe, H.C.
Martin, R. (Galway).
Cooke, Bryan
Middleton, W.
Courtenay, John
Milbanke, Sir R.
Creevey, John
Milner, Sir W. M.
Daley, D. Bowes
Moore, G. P.
Dolben, Sir W.
Moore, P.
Douglas, Marquis
Morpeth, Viscount
Dundas, C.
Morris, Edward
Dundas, Hon. C. L.
Mostyn, Sir T
Dundas, Hon. G. H. L.
North, Dudley
Dundas, Hon. L.
Northey, Wm.
Elliot, Wm.
Newport, Sir John
Erskine, Hon. Thos.
Ord, William
Ebrinston, Lord
Ossulston, Lord
faaz, J.
Palk, Sir Lawrence
Fellowes, Robert
Palmer, John
Fitzgerald, Rt. Hon. J.
Peirse, H.
Fitzpatrick, Rt. Hon. R
.Pelham, Hon. C. A.
Foley, Hon. A.
Petty, Lord Henry
Foley, T.
Plumer, W.
Folkes, Sir M.
Ponsonby, R. Hon. W.B,
Folkestone, Viscount
Poyntz, Wm. S.
Fox, Hon. C. J.
Proby, Viscount
Francis, P.
Pulteney, Sir W.
Geary, Sir Wm.
Pitches, John
Giles, D.
Raine, Jonathan
Grenfell, Pascoe
Russell, Lord Wm.
Grenville, Right Hon. T
St. John, Hon. St. A,
Grey, Hon. Charles
Scott, Joseph
Hamilton, Lord A.
Scudamore, J.
Heathcote, Sir G.
Shelly, H.J.
Hippesley, Sir J. C.
Shelly, T.
Holland, Henry, jun.
Sheridan, R. B.
Hughes, Wm. Lewis
Smith, Wm.
Hulkes, James
Somerville, Sir M.
Hurst, R.
Spencer, Lord. R,
Hutchinson, H. C. H,
Stanley, Lord
Jarvis, T.
Tarleton, B.
Johnstone, George
Temple, Earl
Ker, R. Gervas
Tierney, Right Hon. G
Kinnaird, Hon. C.
Townsend, Lord J.
Knight, R. Payne
Tyrrwhitt, Thomas
Ladbrooke, Robert
Vansittart, George
Langham, James
Walpole, Hon. G.
Langton, W. G.
Walpole, Hon. IT,
Latouche, J. jun.
Ward, Hon. J. W.
Latouche,R.
Western, C.
Laurence, French,
Whitbread, S.
Lawley, Sir R.
Williams, Owen
Lemon, J.
Windham, Rt. H. W,
Lemon, Sir W.
Wynne, C. w. w.
Lloyd, J. M.
Young, Sir W.
M'Mahon, J.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 7, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
In a committee of privileges, Mr. Adam was farther heard on behalf of the claim of lady Ann Fitzgerald to the barony of Rous. Mr. Romilly, on behalf of sir Thomas Windsor Hunloke, another claimant, and the attorney-general on the part of the crown, prayed farther time, on which the farther consideration was postponed till this day se'nnigbt.—Mr. Johnson, from the office of the chief secretary; for Ireland, presented an account of the
787
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 7, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
Mr. Johnstone,
from the chief secretary's office in Ireland, presented an Account of the Pensions granted ort the Irish establishment, together with the dates and amounts of the same, and the lives for which they were granted, up to the 1st of January, 1805. Ordered to lie on the table.—Mr. Bully, from the exchequer, presented an account of the sums issued by his majesty's command, in pursuance of addresses of that house, and not provided for by parliament-Ordered to lie on the table—Mr. Kinnaird presented several petitions from the inhabitants of the towns of Perth, Sterling,, and Dumfermline, in Scotland, praying for a repeal of the late corn act, which were or-
788
[SALT DUTY BILL.]
Mr. Alexander
appeared at the bar with the report of the bill for imposing an additional duty on salt. On the question being put from the chair, "that this report be now brought up,"
Mr. Johnstone
observed, that though the subject might appear to have been pretty nearly exhausted already, yet he could not refrain at this time from stating his objections to the bill, which he considered as involving in it every thing mischievous that could possibly accompany a tax. It was surprising, that after a report of the committee of this house had been so long on the table, recommending the entire abolition of the salt duty, the first thing we should hear was a double duty being laid on that article. It was a breach of faith-in some measure, and must give the country a bad impression of parliament itself. Suppose a case in private life, where a superior should hold out hopes to a dependant, that he should be relieved from grievances of which he justly complained: what would be thought of that superior if, instead of relief, he should double the burden It was trifling with the people to hold out expectations to them without attempting to realize them. So much for England. But the case was worse with respect to Scotland. There it would be impossible to go through with this bill. Formerly when the duty was 10s. in England, in Scotland it was 6s. 6d. From this it was found necessary to lower it to 4s. If it was scarcely possible to collect it then, what could be done now, when the duty was so much more? The difficulty of making salt in Scotland would not account for the impossibility found in collecting the duty there. This difficulty arose from-making salt there from sea water, instead of salt springs, which contained more saline matter; but in Scotland, they used the rock salt of Chester in general, as well as, in- England. The tax fell much more severely on the poor than
789
Mr. Rose
insisted, that the different bounties to which the committee and the hon. gent, alluded, on the exportation of printed linens and cottons, whale oil, refined sugar, &c. had no connection whatever with the duties imposed upon salt. The gentlemen who opposed this duty in the present instance, and even wished for the repeal of all the duties upon salt, would find themselves under very great difficulty to point out a substitute which would produce a revenue of 500,000l. and not be liable to much greater objection than this was. He denied that the duty at all had any application to the fisheries, which were exempted, and stated, that in the course of the present session, he hoped to be enabled to bring in a bill for the better encouragement and regulation of the fisheries.
Mr. Kinnaird
said, that when the report of the committee of 1801 was ordered to be reprinted, he thought there was reason to expect that it would have been before the house before the bill should be pressed -forward. He wished to remind the house, that in recommending the taking off the duty on salt, that the committee illustrated the advantages of it, by slating that all the prosperity of the Isle of Man was ow-
790
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that the difference to which the hon. member had alluded had been formerly considered by parliament, but that was done for the relief of the manufacturer, and not for the benefit of the consumer. As to the consideration of the northern fisheries, parliament would doubtless continue the same bounties to them as had been granted for a century past. The allusion which another hon. member had made to a situation in common life, was not exactly analogous; in Ins opinion the comparison would be more correctly made with the situation of a sailor who complained to his captain of the hardships which he suffered while at sea in tempestuous weather; and the captain gave him hopes that he should have better weather, and said that he then would have less labour. However, contrary to the expectation of the captain, the gale rose with considerable increased fury, when he had thought that it had nearly subsided, and the vessel sprung a leak. The captain then says, now you must do double work, for, if you don't work away at the pumps, the ship will inevitably sink; there is no other means of saving her. Now, if any other measure of equal benefit to the sate could be proposed, he should be very glad to hear it.
Mr. Hurst
said, that the policy of parliament had always been to spare, amongst the objects of taxation, as much as possible, the indispensable necessaries of life, and he should therefore give his strenuous opposition to a duty which went to raise the price of all articles of human sustenance, in which salt was made use of. It was the duly of his majesty's ministers, when a tax was fairly objected to, to endeavour to find out
791
Colonel Calcraft
said, that though he did not wish to stop the progress of the bill during the printing of the report of the committee; yet he did not suppose that any attempt would have been made to pass the bill through the house until the report should be before them. He said, that though this might not be a fit time for taking off the tax altogether, yet he could1 not think the present was the fittest moment to select for adding 500,0001. to the 800,000l. which is already raised from an article of general consumption, as the lower order must feel peculiarly the inconvenience of a time of war, from the advance which takes place in the price of provisions in consequence of the increase of taxes, which is unavoidably occasioned by the war. When such a subject, however, was to be discussed in parliament, he thought it would have been more respectful to the house for the minister to have attended in his place. He had not heard that he was ill, or that any unpleasant consequences had followed from the fatigue of last night's debate; he might have been a little galled no doubt, but that was no reason why he should not attend in his place to-night, on the discussion of a subject of such general importance. Instead of adopting such a measure as the present, he would advise the Colleagues of that right hon. gent, to take the liberty of recommending him in private to look at economy in the public expenditure. When his majesty's servants thought proper to have recourse to severe taxes of this kind, he thought it was full time to endeavour to find a substitute for them in the retrenchments, which were so loudly called for in the public expenditure. An hon. admiral (Markham) of high authority, had lately stated, (see p. 684), that a saving of one-third might be made in the naval expenditure, which was now 15 million annually; and if they could retrench even one thirteenth part of it, the people of the country might be saved some of the hardships to which they were now subjected. Should this tax be adopted, the consequence must be that every labouring and Agricultural man in the country would have to pay a twentieth part of his income for the, purchase of salt indispensable for his sustenance.
Mr. W. Smith
said, that many things which he had intended to have offered had been in a great measure anticipated. He would;
792
Mr. Sturges Bourne
stated, that the report of this committee had been ordered to be reprinted under an impression, that the printing of it should not cause any delay to the bill. The salt duty was collected at an expence of only 2 per cent, being less than any other tax required in the collection. The fisheries could not be effected by the tax, as they would continue still to have the duty free.
Mr. Fox
said, that there was one point which he wished to have exactly ascertained. It seemed to be agreed that the salt of Scotland was inferior in quality to that of England. He wished to know exactly the degree of difference between them. On the one hand great injustice might be done to Scotland, in case the consumption was great, and on the other hand, in case the food used in Scotland was much easier
793
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March 8, 1805.
[DEFENCE OF THE COUNTRY.]
The order of the day for summoning their lordships to consider of the motion upon this subject being read,
Lord King
rose, and observed, he thought that no apology was necessary for calling the attention of that house to the subject upon which he had announced his intention to bring forward a motion; its intrinsic importance and great magnitude, were so evident as obviously to render any thing of the kind unnecessary. In discussing a subject the nature of which was equally extensive, various, and important, a variety of arguments and considerations, founded on the multiplicity of facts, presented themselves to his mind; but among those which struck him, as the most prominent and forcible, was the contradictory nature, as well as the great inefficacy of the different measures of the two last sessions, for ameliorating the military system, and augmenting the military force of the country. The perusal of these, he thought, would be sufficient to convince every discerning and unprejudiced mind of the total absence of all system, regularity, and connection, in the various measures which had been devised, It was impossible, from the consideration of the acts alluded to, to collect that even the intention of the framers was to create a disposable force in the country. Neither in the plans which had been adopted, or in the course of their execution, could such an object or intention be traced. In the measures which had been suggested, there was nothing like order, regularity, or system; every step that had been taken added to the difficulties, and departed wider from the attainment of the proposed object. Such was the conduct of the government on these occasions, that it reminded him of the situation of an unfortunate man plunged into an abyss of difficulty and distress, who was glad to catch at, or lay hold of, every thing that presented itselt,
794
795
796
797
Earl Camden
observed, that he should proceed upon the discussion of the important subject before their lordships, without making any political or personal allusion whatever; and, it was with regret, that on a debate on a motion brought forward by a noble friend of his, about a fortnight ago, he felt himself under the necessity of making a few observations of that nature. With respect to the question before the house, he doubted not, but their lordships, on a reference to, and a consideration of, what appeared in the official documents upon the table, would make up their minds how it should be decided. With a view to the due illustration of the subject, he had laid on the table several documents, in addition to those moved by the noble baron, who came forward in the present instance, and other noble lords. Some of these respected the artillery, and by the accounts their lordships would see the increase, particularly in that important description of our military force. His lordship then entered into some detailed calculations, drawn from the documents adverted to, and, as one of the results, observed, it would clearly appear, the disposeable force was increased within the year, to an amount exceeding 13,000 men; and this part of the army consisted of corps and troops the best calculated and prepared for foreign or for active service. The noble secretary enforced some of the arguments he had used in the former debate in support of the Additional Force
798
799
Earl Stanhope
said, that the notification of the motion now before the house had induced his attendance this night. He thought the motion of his noble friend one of the best in every point of view, that could possibly be devised, in the present circumstances of the country: the motion did his noble friend credit, as well as his mode of treating the subject. The noble secretary who answered, or rather who attempted to answer his noble friend; expressed his hope that the house, would decide against the motion; but his hope, his wish, and his advice to the house were that the motion should be agreed to. From the general terms of the motion, which was, that a committee be appointed to revise the acts that have been passed in the two last sessions, for the defence of the country, it was allowable for him to enter into a discussion of these acts, of one of them at least, he should do so, and he trusted in such a way, although it was considered by his noble friend, in that point of view, as that he should convince their lordships its leading provisions were mischievous, injurious, and absurd. The view taken by his noble friend of the act to which he alluded, was chiefly of a military nature. In what he had laid. down in that view of it, he agreed with his noble friend; but the view he should take of it was a still more important one. The fact of its producing but a very small number of. Men was a disadvantage, but its most objectionable effects lay deeper,
800
801
802
The earl of Romney
began, by expressing his surprize at the whole of what had been said by the noble earl who had just sat down, and most particularly so in what he had said as to his noble friend opposite (lord Camden) having brought the army into a state of indiscipline at the time he was lord lieutenant of Ireland. So far from that being the case, said the noble
803
804
The Earl of Carlisle
said, that if enquiry was so necessary last year as had been held to be by certain noble lords on the opposite side of the house, he was at a loss to find out why it was not equally so at present. Those noble lords were last year the most strenuous and vehement for an enquiry into the state of the military defence of the country, because they then said the measures pursued, and pursuing by the then administration, were weak, inefficient, and. inadequate to the purpose: every abuse was thrown on the folly, incapacity, and imbecility of those who brought forward those measures; and a noble viscount.(Sid-mouth) now in this house, but who was then at the head of his majesty's administration in the other house, was driven from his place on account of the imbecility of those measures. The noble earl then adverted to what these measures were, which were then called so inadequate, and said, the last of them was the noble viscount's Army of Reserve bill the reason
805
"My wound is great because it is so small."
"Then twould be greater, were it none at all."
806
Lord Hawkesbury
said he rose at this early period to address their lordships, and to call their attention to the nature, of the, motion now before them, on the ground on which it had been supported, and which, he trusted, would induce them to come to a decided negative for without saying it was a motion out of the province of a house of parliament to entertain, it was one which, on
807
808
809
810
811
812
813
814
815
Earl Darnley
rose, in support of the motion. His lordship gave his ample assent and approbation to what the noble secretary had observed respecting the zeal and energy with which all ranks had Stepped forward in opposition to the designs of the common enemy; but he objected very much to the arguments which had been used against the motion, and which were precisely the same with which the late administration had, in the last session, combatted their opponents upon bills of a similar tendency to the presents He thought the opposition of the noble secretary too general; deprecated that part of it relating to the time of service, for which the troops were to be considered as engaged, and which his lordship stated required great alterations; and, though he professed the greatest conviction of the noble secretary's abilities for the conduct of the war department, his lordship differed from him materially with respect to the efficiency of the reasons adduced in defence of the bill, and which in his opinion seemed to have no tendency towards the grand end of a speedy termination of the war. His lordship went on to shew, that the military state of the country was not adequate to what was required by the exigencies of the occasion, such as his majesty's ministers themselves described them, nor to the resources and spirit of the country, if properly called forth and directed. With respect to the talents, and capacity, and character of his majesty's ministers, he thought it fair, and just, and parliamentary to consider them, when any of their measures were under consideration, and to introduce the discussions of these measures when the inefficiency of them afforded proof of the incapacity of their authors. Here the noble lord entered into an examination of the amount of the change that had taken place in the govt. The noble and learned lord on the woolsack was still the same, nor did he wish to see any change take place wit, respect to him, The lord
816
The Earl of Suffolk
took a retrospect of the manner in which the militia had been recruited, the Army of Reserve raised, and the general effects of the Defence Act, considering it as an object of reproach not only to his majesty's ministers, but to their lordships, that they should persevere in a measure, which must, from concomitant circumstances; progressively decrease the raising of a disposable force, most particularly at this season of the year when the time of harvest was approaching, and so many persons were engaged in agriculture. His lordship then adverted to the statement of the noble secretary of state, specifying the number of regular regiments, militia, &c. and made some general observations adverse to the mode of raising and using black regiments for the service of the West India Islands.
The Duke of Montrose
in answer observed, that the black regiments during the last war had displayed most evident marks of their fidelity and courage in repelling the Spaniards who had attacked that part
817
The Earl of Carisfort
did not by any means consider the motion of his noble friend in that point of view; it was a motion replete with wisdom, and well deserving their lordships consideration. The noble secretary of state set out with a pompous enumeration of the number of forces raised for the protection of the country and annoyance of the enemy, and of their state of discipline. The most ample means had been put into the hands of his majesty's ministers by the votes of both houses of parliament; but, with all these advantages, he would ask, what had been effected? Was it a situation for G. Britain to be in, after two years war, after having been menaced during the whole of that time with invasion, and with 800,000 men in arms, not to be able to retort those threats upon the enemy? he was at a loss to know the drift of the noble secretary of state's argument, when he talked of such a number of men in arms. What he wanted to be informed of, what he wished to be assured of, was that we had the means of maintaining a successful war against the enemy. That we had not only a sufficient force for the defence of the country, but a regular disposeable force to annoy the ene-
818
819
The Earl of Westmoreland
wished the noble lords on the other side to look back to their own conduct and their own measures before they condemned the present administration for pursuing and improving what they had instituted. The noble lords opposite were entitled to the gratitude of the nation for having instituted these measures, and he was only, astonished that they could disapprove of the continuation and improvement of them by the present and ministration. The military state of the country was amply sufficient to justify his majesty's government, and to hold out the most satisfactory expectations to the
820
Lord Grenville
said, he would not reply either to the arguments or to the wish of the noble lord who had just sat down. He would leave both to make their foil impression on their lordships with the conviction, that the best idea that could be formed of the minds from which proceeded the measures he and his noble friends condemned, was from the speeches with which it was attempted to support them? He wished, however, that the noble lord, in pity, not to those on that side, but to those whom he wished to defend, bad looked to his right hand and his left before he ventured to charge him and his noble friends with inconsistency, in not supporting the measures the present government had brought forward. he did not mean to charge inconsistency upon his noble friend opposite, who voted for a motion similar to this last year, and who would vote against it this year. He thought that any man who saw reason to think the military state of the country greatly improved, acted an honest and conscientious part in giving his vote accordingly; but for himself, who saw not the smallest reason for changing his former opinion on this subject, lie thought it but reasonable and fair to claim credit at least for consistency, when he thought that if ever necessary, it was tenfold necessary now. But before he proceeded to that part of what he intended to offer to their lordships, he should observe upon the language that had fallen from the noble secretary of state opposite, that it was not fit that any proposition relative to the military state of the country should be originated in parliament, but by the executive government; Gould it be heard without astonishment, in the parlia-
821
822
823
Lord Mulgrace
defended the noble lord? (Hawkesbury) from the charge of having said that parliament had no right to discuss military questions. His noble friend, who had arraigned this position with so much asperity, had totally misrepresented his noble friend, who said merely that parliament ought not to originate and devise military plans, unless in cases of the utmost necessity; such as did not now exist. He denied that any such motion as the present had been adopted last year for no such motion had even been debated. For his own part, though he had concurred in thinking that some change in administration was necessary, he by no mean ever went so far as to think that all tin military plans of the late ministry should be repealed. Of the army of reserve ac bethought that it had been of essential service to the public, and that it was suspended, not because it was bad but be cause it was no longer necessary. H contended that the measure so much arrangued had not received sufficient trial and that what trial had taken place encou-
824
The Lord Chancellor
defended the military system of the late administration, lie stated the motion, and contended that the latter part of it, which proposed that the house should, alter revising the existing laws on the subject, proceed to devise other plans of military defence, was highly objectionable. He did not deny the right of the house to do so; but he was certain that nothing but the overbearing necessity could induce the house to assume the initiation of measures which, in general, it was adviseable to leave to the executive government The additional force act, he was convinced, would produce men if it had a fair opportunity of being tried; And if parishes found that there was no chance of its being repealed, exertions for that purpose would be made. As to the raising of the penalties, the law possessed means of enforcing them, audit was just and necessary for the public service, that in this, as in many other cases, and particularly in cases of a similar kind last war, they should be enforced. Notwithstanding the charges of imbecility and weakness, so boldly made against the late ministry, they had done everything that any: men, that all the talents and property of is the country could have been expected to do for the public safety. As to the decay of the influence of this country, owing to the treaty of Amiens, he observed, that the influence of this country on the continent was as little before that treaty as after le it. One advantage of that treaty was, that Id it had afforded the means of preparing ct those effectual measures of defence that al had been provided in this war, into which we had been driven, by leading to that unanimity which had facilitated our exertions. Upon the whole, he saw no advantage to be derived from that revision of acts which had been, highly beneficial to the state, which were suspended because
825
The Duke of Clarence
stated shortly his reasons for supporting the motion. He thought that every part of our military establishment deserved serious revision. He referred to his own calculations respecting the extraordinary deficiencies in our regular force, compared with its actual amount, and contended that the more he considered this subject, the more he was convinced of the necessity of going into the inquiry which his noble friend had proposed. Another noble friend of his had, on a former occasion, alluded to the defence act, and had exposed its nullity in strong and conclusive terms. This, however, was the only thing which ministers had even attempted to increase our disposable force, and no noble lord could look at its effects without owning, if be spoke his real sentiments, that to trust to such a measure as a means of recruiting our army was little better than downright trifling. He thought that a noble viscount opposite (lord Sidmouth) and some of his late friends, were bound in consistency to vote for the committee if it were for no purpose but that of getting rid of a bill, which last session they had so severely condemned. Among other topics which his R. H. employed in support of the motion, was the state of the army employed in the colonies. The immense draughts of our regular troops to the West India Islands had long been a matter of deep regret, and the means of counteracting this evil had long occupied the attention of military men. The plan of employing corps of Sepoys in these settlements was one which had long struck him as worthy of serious consideration, and which would, if the committee were granted, of course be fully and deliberately enquired into. Many other important points, which on? this as well as on former occasions had been referred, would also demand serious investigation. His R. H. alluded to the present state of the naval defence, which he maintained was inferior in efficiency to what was supported by the noble lord lately at the head of the naval department. Here again he conceived a noble viscount opposite (lord Sidmouth) called on to state whether he gave any countenance to the accusation brought forward in another
826
Lord Sidmouth
intreated the indulgence of the house for a few moments, the more so, as he was solicitous to answer what he could not help conceiving to be a personal attack. He was particularly hurt by the insinuations of the illustrious personage who just sat down, which seemed pointedly to accuse him of versatility and inconsistency. He must beg leave to say, that: such a charge, in the present instance, from whatever quarter it might come, was wholly without foundation. He had often been called upon to deliver his opinion respecting the measure which formed the chief topic of this night's debate; and on no occasion did he advance any sentiments different from those which he bad formerly expressed respecting it. He had always asserted that it would not be attended with that immediate effect which it was supposed could result from it; and if he now consented to give it a fuller and more prolonged trial, it was out of respect for the sanction of the legislature by which it had been harboured. Never was it his idea or intention that it should oppress the people in the form of a tax; and should it be proved so to operate, it should no longer meet with his approbation and support. With respect to the great variety of extraneous topics which had been introduced into the debate, and many of which, had been personally directed against himself, he should only say, that most of them, if not all, had no real foundation in fact. A noble baron (Grenville) had, on this and many other occasions, been very prodigal of opprobrious epithets in describing the administration of which, he bad formed a part. The terms imbecility and incapacity were continually used to characterise it; but he still did not fear to challeuge that noble baron, or any other noble lord who indulged in the same accusations, to come forward with; the statement of any one particular measure of his administration to which those insulting terms could justly apply. In the naval department he had seen nothing but wisdom, energy, and unremitting activity, and he should never in that house suffer any contrary assertion to pass uncontradicted. The same observation he felt himself called on to make, as to all the other departments. Every one of the measures by which the army was aug-
827
Lord Melville
vindicated the measures of fete administration of which he had formed a part, in conjunction with the noble bacon (Grenville), who this night had been no acrimonious in his charge against his Bitter colleagues. Not one of the measures that had been adopted but he could fully justify, and the noble baron must be sensible as he was of the expediency or
828
Earl Spencer
could not but express, his surprise at the complete misrepresentation, by the noble viscount, of what had been advanced on his side of the house. It was not merely the repeal of the defence act which the present motion had in contemplation, but a great variety of other improvements, and the adoption of other means by which our military system might be much perfected. Equally inconsistent was the noble and learned lord on the woolsack in urging the same objection; for when the repeal of the act was proposed, that learned lord opposed the Motion on the ground that it referred to a single measure, and to no new system of measures that might tend to supply its place. When a motion was now proposed to furnish that new system or the opportunity of devising it, that motion equally met with the learned lord's disapprobation and opposition. Such misrepresentations and inconsistencies it was impossible for him to allow to pass by unnoticed and un-reproved. Of the necessity of such a motion as the present he was convinced, and under that conviction he must vote for its adoption.—The question was loudly called for, and on a division there appeared for the motion—
contents
52
Non-contents
127
Majority
75
List of the Minority
Duke of Clarence
Duke of Norfolk
Duke of Devon
Duke of Bedford
829
Duke of Richmond
Earl of Leicester
Duke of Grafton
Earl Fortescue
Duke Of St Albans
Eard Darntey
Marquis Of Buckingham
Earl of Cassills
Marquis of Bute
Earl of Stair
Marquis of Stafford
Earl of Broadalbane
Marquis of Lansdown
Earl of Besborough
Marquis of Headfort
Earl Moira
Earl of Derby
Viscount Hereford
Earl of Suffolk
Viscount Maynard
Earl of Carlisle
Lord De Clifford
Earl Fitzwilliam
Lord St. John
Earl Spencer
Lord Walpole
Earl of Berkeley
Lord King
Earl of Thanet
Lord Stawell
Earl of Albemarle
Lord Grantley
Earl of Peterborough
Lord Grenville
Earl of Cholmondeley
Lord Dundas
Earl Stanhope
Lord Yarborough
Earl of Portsmouth
Lord Carysfort
Earl of Guildford
Lord Hutchinson
Earl Cowper
Lord Minto
Earl of Tankerville
Lord Cawdor
Earl of Carnarvon
Bishop of Bangor.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Friday March 8, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The Royal Marine Mutiny bill, the Isle of Man bill, the Sugar Drawback bill, and the Legacy Duty bill were read a second time —A message from the lords informed the house, that their lordships had agreed to the Loan, bill, and the Postage Duty bill, without, any amendment. Lord H. Petty having reason to understand that no objection would be made to the motions of which he had given nonce for this day, thought it unnecessary to preface them with any observations. He should therefore content himself with simply moving, "That there be laid before the House a Copy of the Depositions made by the Prisoners of State in the Prison of Kilmamham, Dublin, on oath, before three Judges of the Court of King's Bench, who sat there for that purpose, on the 16th and 17th of July last. Also a Copy of the Memorials from the said Prisoners of State to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, prior and subsequent to the said dates."
[MIDDLESEX ELECTION.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate, and the report of the Middlesex committee relative to the conduct of the Sheriffs of Middlesex.
Mr. Sheridan
rose for the purpose of opposing the resumption of the debate now. His intention was, if the house should agree with him in negativing that motion, to follow up the question by a motion for hearing counsel on behalf of the sheriff's previous to resuming the debate on some future day, it was not his wish to enter
830
831
832
Lord Marsham
concurred in the object of the hon. gent. though he differed with him in his statements of facts, and the conclusions which he drew from them. He agreed with that hon. gent. in wishing the sheriffs to be heard by counsel, and on this subject there had been hardly any difference in the committee, whose sentiments he expressed. The whole of the evidence undoubtedly had not been laid before the house, but such parts had been selected as were best calculated to enable them to form a just opinion on the conduct of the sheriffs. All that dry part of the evidence respecting particular votes, which could throw no light on the subject, had been omitted. As to the assertion that the sheriffs had not been fully heard, he should say, that though the committee had informed their counsel that they need not attend during the whole of the scrutiny.
833
Mr. Fox
thought it unnecessary to trouble the house, after the opinion that had been given by the noble lord. He should only observe, that all the arguments that had been used on a former day applied against the hearing of evidence, not against the hearing of counsel. The argument had been that the evidence on oath before the committee was better than any parole evidence. The house had decided this question; but he, notwithstanding that decision, remained of his former opinion, and thought that evidence out to be heard before they agreed to the report of the committee, and consequently counsel. The committee had had the advantage of the comments of counsel, of which they had not made any report. Why should not the house have the enjoyment of that advantage. It had been argued that the house ought to have confidence in their committee and agree to the report. But why stop there? why not place the same confidence in their recommendation to hear counsel. He thought it an extraordinary circumstance that a member, of great weight in that house for talents and official situation, should come down and persuade the house to a conclusion in the teeth of all his precedents. He hoped that some way would be found out for hearing counsel, on the present case, as the contrary course would not be very honourable to the house.
The Master of the Rolls
was of opinion that some legislative measure ought to be resorted to, in order to settle this question, which certainly stood at present upon bad grounds. Either the committee should have the whole judgment of the case, or the house should retain it altogether. The question whether counsel should be heard, was not to be decided by any abstract reasoning, but by what had been the practice of parliament. All courts of justice had the same principles. He did not know how far the sheriffs were bound by the report of the committee; that was to be regulated by the practice of the house. The hon. gent. had said that he did not agree with the decision of the house on a former day. He had not been himself in the house at the time of that decision, but fully concurred in it. There had been no
834
835
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
perceived that the question was rendered much narrower than in a former debate, when the hon. gent.' (Mr. Fox) argument went to hearing the whole of the case. The motion of the hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) which he understood the other hon. member to acquiesce in was solely confined to the hearing of counsel. If counsel were at all to be heard, this was the time; and if the house should be of that opinion, he should not object to it. At the same time he confessed, that from the best consideration he had been able to bestow on the subject, he was not aware of any case in which the party had been heard either by his counsel or by himself. But there were a variety of cases, and no doubt there must be some of them bearing on this question, and she wing what was the sense of parliament upon it. The resolution of the committee had been accompanied with the evidence, and appeared to him to come under the fourth head contained in the report of the committee appointed in 1789 to examine into precedents. He did not think, and he was sure no gent, who heard him could think, that much light could be thrown upon the particular case by the arguments of counsel, however it might be desirable with a view to the general principle to have them called in Me agreed, that the question ought to be decided not by any abstract reasoning, but by what had been the practice of the house. The point of importance was, not to set the example of departing from the practice of parliament, nor to follow the example of attributing less weight to the decision of their committees. As, however, a number of gentlemen seemed to be of opinion that counsel should be heard, and his learned friend also inclined to that opinion, he should not have any objection, provided, however, it was to be clearly understood, that no other proposition was to be grounded on his agreeing to this.
836
Mr. Sheridan
explained by observing, that he was still of opinion with his hon. friend near him, that evidence ought to be heard, though he only how contended for hearing counsel. With regard to the evidence on the scrutiny, if it appeared there that a number of voters who had no legal title to vote had been received for Mr. Mainwaring, equal to that of the mill voters, then the charge of corruption would be done away.
Mr. Fuller
said, that he was sorry to observe in the enumeration made by the hon. gent. who opened the debate, he had omitted the mention of his relation, Mr. Rose Fuller, who sat as chairman of the committee which framed that bill, and was as strenuous in support of it, as Sir G. Saville, or any of those whom the hon. gent. had selected a gentleman who was only attached to the service of his courttry, and kept himself always free from the contests of any parties.
Mr. Sheridan
then informed the house that the learned gentlemen, supposing the proceedings would be the same as on the former night, were not prepared to proceed.
Mr. Fox
contended that they had no right to conclude that any other course would be adopted than that which had taken place on a former night, and he put it to the candour of the right hon. gent. himself whether he was not of the same opinion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
admitted that he did think the present question involved in the former one. But when the debate had been last adjourned, it was under a distinct notice of the present motion, and therefore the counsel ought to have been prepared. He was not disinclined to grant any time consistent with the orders of the house, but it was derogatory from the dignity of the house to suffer itself to be trifled with. If the counsel, when called in, could assign any good reason for not being prepared to proceed, he should have no objection to agree to any convenient interval, before the debate should be resumed.—he order for resuming the debate being then read, and, the counsel being called in, on the motion of Mr. Sheridan,
837
Mr. Adam
appeared at the bar, as counsel for the sheriffs, and stated, that he was not perfectly prepared; but, if the house desired, he would proceed in the best manner he could. He allowed it was highly unbecoming in any man to appear at the bar of the House of Commons, otherwise than with every preparation which the best exertion of his faculties would enable him to attain. But if he might take the liberty of alluding to any thing that had passed in that house, there were some circumstances that had appeared in the printed votes of the house, which, in some measure, justified his precent deficiency of preparation; It was at first to be understood from these votes, that it was the intention of the house to hear counsel; from a subsequent vote, it was understood that counsel was not to be heard. He was now in attendance merely from the accident of having been in the neighbourhood, which had afforded his clients the opportunity of informing him that his presence was likely to be required. He took the liberty to remind the house, that there was no order for hearing counsel this day; and though having formerly turned his mind very attentively to the whole of the circumstances of this case, and the law connected with it, he may possibly be still capable of calling many branches of it to his recollection so as not to be totally unqualified to present a statement of it to the house; yet he would consider it as matter of favour to himself, and advantage, to his clients, if he was allowed time to review the case. He, therefore, conjured the house, to permit him again to look attentively over the precedents of parliament in this case, from the earliest times, and the law connected with them; as without this revision, he could but ill discharge his duty. The indulgence of the house would be applied by him in the best manner he could to the convenience of the house itself, by concentrating all that was important in the facts of the case, in the precedents, and the law upon them, so as to take up as little time as possible in his statement.—The counsel having withdrawn;
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that after what he had heard from the counsel, though he was not satisfied that the counsel had not heard something which it was not so proper for him to hear, he would not press the hearing of counsel this day, But after ail the delay this busi-
838
HOUSE OF LORDS,
Monday, March 11, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The Pleasure Horse Duty bill was read a second time. —Mr. Johnson, from the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry, presented the 11th Report of the commissioners, which was. ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed —Earl Darnley said, that he had given notice of a motion for to-morrow, for papers respecting the navy, with a view to a comparison of the conduct of the present board of Admiralty, with that of their predecessors; but as he understood that a noble earl, who lately presided at the admiralty, could not attend to-morrow, and as he wished to give a noble viscount, who was the present first lord of the admiralty, an opportunity of considering whether he would consent to grant the papers intended to be moved for, he would therefore postpone his motion to Thursday. His lordship then moved that the order for summoning the lords to-morrow should be discharged, and renewed for Thursday. Ordered.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS,
Monday, March 11, 1805.
[MINUTES.]
The Edinburgh Police bill was read a 2d time, and referred to a private committee, as was also Bowyer's Lottery bill.—Mr. Williams, from the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, presented their 11th report; which was ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed,—An
839
[MIDDLESEX ELECTION.]
On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the order for hearing counsel upon the report of the committee respecting the conduct of Messrs. Rawlins and Cox at the Middlesex Election of 1802, was read, and the counsel being accordingly called in;
Mr. Adam
appeared at the bar. The learned counsel began by expressing his thanks to the house for the indulgence shewn him on a former evening, by postponing the consideration of this subject, and thus affording him an opportunity of more satisfactorily preparing his mind for the discharge of the important duty which belonged to him. For this he was the more grateful, because he was thus enabled to do that which, notwithstanding the utmost solicitude for the interest of his clients, he felt it unnecessary to do before the committee, upon whose report the house was now called on to decide. Before he proceeded to shew that the resolutions of that committee were unfounded in law, and the justice of the case, and that they were not sustained by the evidence on the table, he took occasion to observe, that from the order made in pursuance of which he appeared at that bar, the resolutions were perfectly open for discussion. He also felt himself intitled to think, that the mind of the house was quite open upon the subject. If, then, he could make it appear that the committee had drawn conclusions from the evidence in charging the sheriffs with corruption, which that evidence did not warrant, and which were quite irreconcileable with all the probabilities arising out of the nature of the case and the character of the sheriffs, he had little doubt, that not only the mind of the house at large, but that of the illustrious persons of whom, the committee was composed, would be prompt to determine against the resolutions. In those resolutions he begged the house to observe, that the committee had not only exceeded the evidence, but the charges of the petitioners who originally complained of the conduct of the sheriffs. The petitioners complained of the sheriffs having acted unduly: but the committee resolved that they acted corruptly, and did, knowingly and wilfully, admit fictitious votes to be put upon
840
841
842
843
844
845
The Speaker
put the question, that the house do agree with the resolutions of this committee, the substance of which was,
846
Mr. Rose
said, he had given his whole attention to this case, and he conceived it as strong as possible in favour of the resolution. He was happy the sheriffs had had the benefit of counsel, who had discharged his duty so ably; that if it were possible for any argument to alter the impression of plain and strong facts, he would have made their criminality disappear. He saw in the whole of the proceedings of the election a general partiality of the sheriffs in favour of one of the candidates. They had from this partiality put on the poll a number of votes notoriously bad; they had acted in some cases judicially, in others ministerially: they had admitted the mill votes contrary to every possible right. Here the right hon. gent. entered into a detail of the partial conduct of the sheriffs. They had a person who was called the orator to declaim against Mr. Mainwaring in front of the hustings, and to apply every vilifying expression to that gent.; and when the impropriety was represented to them, they contented themselves with saying he was a droll fellow. They permitted the flags of Sir F. Burdett to be displayed in front of the hustings, with the motto of "No bastile" upon them; they suffered black bread and dead vermin to be exhibited, as if this were a specimen of the treatment in a prison with which Mr. Mainwaring was supposed to be connected. A man naked from the waist upwards, of an emaciated appearance, was exhibited with another flogging him, with a view to cast odium on the same gentleman. All this was permitted for several days, notwithstanding it was allowed there was a sufficiency of constables in attendance to put a stop to such disgraceful scenes. When Mr. Mainwaring attempted to speak, an outcry was raised which rendered it impossible for him to be heard. When Sir F. Burdett abused the Bastile, one of the sheriffs' prompted him; and the sheriffs' clerks wore Burdett's colours. When facilities were given for inflaming the mob, which
847
848
Mr. P. Moore
expressed his astonishment at the extreme frivolity of some of the observations of the right hon. gent. who had just sat down. If the committee had fallen into an error, he was sure nothing could be further from the intention of the noble lord who had presided in that committee; nothing could be further from the intention of the committee themselves, than that the house should sacrifice their integrity for the purpose of maintaining them in an opinion proved to be erroneous. The right hon. gent. had expatiated largely on the conduct of the sheriffs, he only hoped, that if it ever fell to that right hon. gent's lot to have the honour of filling the office of sheriff, he might execute the duties of his situation with as much credit and propriety as the gentlemen who were now the subjects of discussion. After the very luminous speech which the house had heard from the learned counsel at the bar, he should abbreviate what he had to say as much as possible. The hon. gent. here entered into an examination of the report of the committee, and of the evidence on which that report was founded. He asserted, that although there might be 30 or 40 bad qualifications for votes on the part of Sir F. Burdett, there were ten times as many on the other side. The committee had struck out 600 votes indifferently on both sides, because the voters had not been assessed to the land-tax. The papers on the table proved that the sheriffs had refused votes for Sir F. Burdett as well as for Mr. Mainwaring: 128 votes admitted by them for the last-named candidate were struck off by the committee, because they were official, and not freehold votes. Could any circumstance rebut the charge of partiality more strongly than this? He reprobated the conduct of the right hon.
849
Lord Marsham
assured the house, that the committee had not determined on the report which they had presented, until after the most mature deliberation. How far they were borne out by the evidence before them, it would be for the house to decide. With regard to himself he could confidently say, that he felt no alteration of opinion on the subject, and he rather thought the other members of the committee adhered as closely to their former decision. His lordship went through the whole of the evidence on the table of the house, reading extracts from it, and commenting upon them as he proceeded, The committee had with regret been under the necessity of striking off votes to both par. ties, in every respect good, but that they had not been assessed to the laud tax. The outrages complained of by the right hon. gent. who opened the debate were unjustifiable, although some exertions had certainly been made by the sheriffs to suppress them. The learned counsel had insisted strongly on the propriety of the sheriffs being tried by the evidence which they had it in their power at the moment to benefit themselves by, and not by that afterwards collected for the Committee. He acknowledged the justness of this observation, and accordingly the committee in their report had withdrawn all that part of the evidence relating to the mill voters, which the sheriffs could not be in possession of at the time of the election. The committee were certainly of opinion, that by acting sometimes judicially and sometimes ministerially, the
850
The Solicitor General (Sir Vicary Gibbs)
did not think it necessary to trouble the house long, when he recollected the mass of evidence which had lain so long on the table, and with which members must by this time have become familiar. He had listened with the utmost attention to the arguments of the learned gent. at the bar, but he owned that he remained entirely unconvinced by them. In considering the merits of the question, the acts of irregularity mentioned by his right hon. friend near him, ought not to be wholly omitted, as they tended distinctly to shew the motives by which the sheriffs had been actuated. The question was, whether or not the sheriffs, with an intention of giving sir F. Burdett an unfair majority, did wilfully and corruptly admit the mill-voters, knowing them at the same time to be bad, and on the 15 day of the poll, towards the close, when the majority turned in favour of sir Francis, rejected votes exactly similar to those they had before accepted. Examine them by their own evidence. They had laid down two rules for their conduct; one, how to acquire information, the other, how to act on such information when acquired. The hon. and learned gent. proved, by an examination of the circumsances of the case, that they either departed from, these rules, or adhered to them as inconvenience dictated. After exposing the' impossibility that the sheriffs should be ignorant of the absurdity of the claims set up by the Isleworth mill-holders to aright of voting, from their possession of a freehold, be commented severely on their conduct with regard to Albion Copper.
851
852
Mr. W. Smith
felt unwilling, after the weighty arguments that had been urged on both sides of the question, to obtrude himself on the attention of the house; but he was desirous to offer some remarks which had escaped the notice of the gentlemen who had already delivered their sentiments on the subject, he most sincerely hoped that no gent. would give his vote on it who had not heard the able speech of the learned counsel at the bar, and who had not studied with attention the documents on the table. He was in some difficulty with regard to the part he should take in the question. He certainly thought, that very considerable blame attached to the sheriffs for their conduct; but he could not allow that their motives were corrupt; and on this point he should feel inclined to differ from the decision of the committee. In his opinion, the right hon. gent. who had commenced the discussion had aggravated the case, by dwelling on circumstances omitted by the committee. The exhibitions to which he alluded were certainly scandalous, but unfortunately in most contested elections, particularly those of Middlesex and Westminster, such outrages were but too frequent. The hon. gent. commented on the evidence of Mr. Adolphus, which, he said, was in some points contradicted by other testimony. He perfectly agreed with the noble lord that the point of most consequence related to the mill voters: had it been his situation, he certainly would not have acted as the sheriffs had done; but it did not follow that they acted corruptly. He thought most of the statements of the learned gent. who had just sat down, irrefragable; there were strong proofs of ill temper and passion, exhibited during the election; he meant only on the part of one of the sherifls, for from this charge Mr. Cone was exonerated. As to the case of Mr. Albion Copper, whom Mr. Silvester had threatened to prosecute, if he had been a wilfully perjured man, would be have been selected as an evidence on behalf of Mr. Mainwaring before the committee? Though he admitted that were was a difference between a solicitor and a barrister at law, yet Mr. Burcball was no common solicitor; and if he ware himself a sheriff, he should trust to his advice as soon as to that of many barristers he could name. He knew not Mr. Burchall personally, nor at all until the present transaction, but from his great experience in the affairs of the county, he thought him as capable of
853
Sir. W. W. Wynne
agreed completely with the noble lord who had been chairman of the committee. That the sheriffs had acted very improperly no man could' deny. He thought, however, that their1 guilt consisted as much in acts of omission as of commission. Their conduct with respect to the mill voters was highly reprehensible.
Lord Henniker
observed, that the hon. gent (Mr. Smith) seemed to be mistaken respecting the power of the magistrates at the election. The power was chiefly vested in the sheriffs on these occasions, and it depended on them to restore order, and keep within due bounds the proceedings of the mob. They, therefore, were answerable for whatever misconduct might have taken place.
Mr. W. Smith
explained, by observing that he did not say that it was the business of the magistrates in the first instance to quell the tumult; but only said, that if the conduct of the mob was so gross as it was on some occasions represented, the magistrates might have interfered, and the sheriffs would scarcely have refused their concurrence in such measures.—The question was then loudly called for, and strangers were ordered to withdraw. Whilst we were excluded from the gallery, the house agreed to the resolutions of the committee without a division. On our re-admission we found
Mr. Fox
on his legs, commenting on a motion which had been submitted to the house by Mr. Rose, grounded on the re-
854
Mr. C. Wynne
observed, that it was on all hands agreed that the conduct of the sheriffs had been extremely improper in admitting the Mill votes; but there was a doubt entertained1 whether they had acted corruptly, and not rather from neglect Or inattention. This might be discovered by a reference to other parts of their conduct. The under sheriff's opinion relative to a reference to the land-tax assessments, seemed to be formed on a supposition that the act of parliament was absurd, he thought that the house should follow up its adoption of the resolutions of the committee, with some other proceedings, for the sake of asserting the right of electors, as well as the privileges of the house; and he had only to regret the length of time that it had been delayed.—The question was then put on the motion, when
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
in order to obviate the argument of the hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Fox), thought, that, as the most striking breach of law that had been committed by the sheriffs, was their having admitted the votes of persons who were not to be found in the assessments to the land tax, the words "as well as by refusing to refer to the assessments to the land tax," should be inserted in the motion. As this formed part of the guilt of the sheriffs, it ought to be expressed in the resolution of the house, especially as it had been attempted by some persons to define the duty of the sheriffs, otherwise than as the law directed. This would be a security that no sheriffs hereafter would act as those sheriffs had done in the instance under consideration.
Mr. Fox
thought that the greatest breach of law committed by the sheriffs, was their having omitted to conform to the injunctions of an act of parliament which no man could deny to be highly improper. As the committee had made
855
Lord Marsham
had some doubt whether the amendment proposed by the right hon. gent. could be agreed to consistently with the report. The evidence, as well as he could recollect, did not prove that the sheriffs refused the reference, but that they would not stop the poll for it; and they certainly bad not facilitated, the reference to the assessments, which was left to be made in the particular booths.
The Attorney General
proved from a passage in the evidence given by Mr. Adolpbus, that the sheriffs had declared it not to be their duty to examine the books of assessments, and had refused to refer to them, and he therefore supported the amendment.
Mr. W. Smith
said he had already stated what he now begged to repeat, that the evidence of Mr. Adolphus ought not to be considered as conclusive by the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
also cited some passages from the evidence, to shew that the sheriffs had not attended to a request on the part of Mr. Mainwaring, that they might refer to the assessments of the land tax. The house agreed to the amended motion; "That the said R. A. Cox, and sir W. Rawlins, knt. by then conduct and practices at the said election, as stated in the foregoing resolutions, as well as by refusing to refer to the assessments to the land tax, have acted in violation of their duty, contrary to law, and in breach of the privilege's of that house."—It was then ordered, on the motion of Mr. Rose, "That the said R. A. Cox, and Sir W. Rawlins, knt. for their said offence, be committed to his majesty's gaol of Newgate, and that the speaker do issue his warrant accordingly."—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 12, 1805.
[CONDUCT OF JUDGE FOX.]
The Marquis of Abercorn
submitted a motion to their lordships, as part of which he read the allegations which he brought for-
856
Lord Auckland
expressed his regret that the subject had been ever brought forward before their lordships in the shape in which it appeared to stand; but now that they had taken it into, consideration, he thought it incumbent on them to proceed to a conclusion, and either to acquit or convict the learned and hon. gent. whose conduct was the subject of the charges or accusations, or whatever, other names were given to them. He sincerely lamented that such a precedent had been established, as that one of the judges of the land should be called upon to answer the allegations of any member of that house, however respectable, and particularly as the matter of those allegations was not within the immediate knowledge of that noble lord, but taken upon the bare assertion of those whose authority should be received with some diffidence. If it were competent to the noble marquis to do this, by parity of reasoning, any of the 658 members of the other house might call upon any of the judges, or even the lord chancellor, to answer to charges which, perhaps, might ultimately prove to be unfounded. What a situation, therefore, would that of those persons, chosen on account of their experience, ability, and virtue, to administer the laws, be, if, on the solitary allegation of any of the members of the other house, or of any noble lord out of the 360 of which the peerage consisted, they should be required to answer at that bar accusations of the most serious nature. However as their lordships had proceeded so far, he thought it their duty to continue, notwithstanding the objections to which their proceedings may give rise.
The Lord Chancellor
explained the different modes which might be employed far the removal of a judge guilty of misconduct, both by the ancient law and the act of settlement. The other house might have proceeded by impeachment, and he was sorry that mode had not been resorted to; but still it was competent to either house to proceed by address. His lordship explained the anomalous proceedings, in which it was possible the present measure might lead their lordships, and, slated more explicitly than what had been pre-
857
Earl Spencer
declared that it did not appear to him to accord perfectly with the usual course of their lordships' proceedings in criminal matters, that the allegations of the noble marquis, as well as the petitions, should be referred to their lordships' committee.
Lord Hawkesbury
adverted to the novelty of the case, and urged the necessity of proceeding with extreme caution and precision in a case for which there was no precedent.
Lord Ellenborough
would, with the leave of their lordships, propose an amendment, which he thought would have the effect of obviating the objection suggested by a noble lord. He thought it a subject for deep regret, that an occasion for any measure of the sort upon which they were engaged should have occurred; and he particularly lamented, that the mode of impeachment had not been preferred to one which was likely to involve them in a sea of eternal discussion, where they would have to labour without rudder or guide. The honour, the character, and the fame of one who filled the most important office in the magistracy, should not be subjected to the delays and inconveniences inseparable from the mode of proceeding, into which the house had unfortunately fallen. His lordship's amendment was then read and adopted, which was in substance" that so much of the allegations against the hon. Mr. Justice Fox, as were not contained in the petitions, should be referred to the committee."ߞAdjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 12, 1805.
[MUTINY BILL.]
On the order of the day being read for the third reading of the mutiny bill, the bill was read accordingly; after which,
The Secretary at War
brought up a clause by way of rider, which contained the oath to be in future administered to all members serving on regimental courts martial, and also another for swearing all the witnesses who should give evidence before them.
General Fitzpatrick
then rose, and, after adverting to his proposal on a former day, that no person should be permitted to sit as president on a regimental court mar-
858
859
Sir James Pulteney
opposed the clause on the grounds that the long-established practice in the army ought not to be altered without the maturest deliberation.
The Secretary at War
defended the clause on the grounds that an innovation had been made by the regimental courts martial taking cognizance of higher crimes under different names. It was time, therefore, that the evidence against the soldier should be examined with the solemnity of an oath, that the punishment for perjury might follow close upon falsehood. He had consulted several general officers, who were for the most part against the clause, but they had alleged no sufficient reasons. He could not agree to have none as president of a court martial who was not 21 years of age, on account of the inconvenience which it would produce.
Earl Temple
was against the oath being administered, where the person who swore falsely was not liable to the penalties of perjury, as must be the case in a regimental court martial, which was not a court of record like a general court martial.
Mr. S. Bourne
said, that persons perjuring themselves before a regimental court martial, should be made liable to all its penalties.
Sir Eyre Coote
defended the clause, because it gave greater solemnity to courts martial. The object was the discovery of truth, and how could truth be more effectually discovered than by putting the witnessess on oath?
Mr. Fuller
was against the clause, as tending unnecessarily to multiply oaths.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
agreed
860
Lord De Blaquiere
said, wanted no innovation in the system, but to have things brought back to their original institution, to confine the jurisdiction of regimental courts-martial to trifling offences, instead, of trying, as they do now, offences of mutiny, desertion, &c. under names that did not belong to them. He wished to have limited also the quantum of the punishment they should be entitled to inflict, for he had seen a man sentenced by a regimental Court-martial to receive one thousand strokes, for an offence, which, on board a ship, would not have been punished with more than a dozen lashes. At the same time, he confessed that he did not like to hear the solemnity of an oath should be resorted to in every trivial charge of drunken frolic, or being late on the parade.
Sir W. W. Wynne
in reference to one of the observations of the chancellor of the exchequer, said, that in the militia, he knew of many captains in regiments, who were neither 21 years of age, and had not been so much as two years in the service.
Colonel Franklund
spoke very warmly against the bill, as likely to breed great dissentions, and promote disputes and unhappiness amongst the men, who would be thus encouraged to threaten their comrades with indictments for perjury if they gave evidence unfavourable to the accused. The practice which the clause went to abolish had prevailed for time immemorial, and without any complaint against it, from the reign of W. HI. down to the present moment, though the mutiny bill was brought every year before the eyes of parliament. This was merely a question of speculative good, offered to practical experience, for which reason he would give it his decided negative.
Colonel Stewart
said, he could not oppose the clauses, on account of the manner in which regimental courts martial proceeded, as they were now constituted. He
861
General Stewart
said, he was anxious that on account of the similarity of their names, his opinion should not be confounded with that of the hon. officer who spoke before him, and whose proposal, of placing 6 or 7 officers in these courts martial would be impracticable in places where troops were detached, sometimes at the distance of one hundred miles asunder.—After a few words from General Fitzpatrick, the first clause was agreed to, and added to the bill; and, on the question being put on the second clause authorizing the administering of oaths as to the witnesses,
Sir J. Pulteney
said, he did not think this clause would be attended with any material inconvenience; but, considering how soon the present mutiny bill would expire, and that it must undergo a discussion in the other house, he doubted whether there would be time to pass it with those amendments.
Sir J. Wrottesley
was adverse to the bill, on account of the bad effects to be apprehended from it; amongst which, he mentioned the certainly that, in all parts of the country where soldiers may be tried by regimental courts martial, upon charges brought against them by the townsmen or inhabitants amongst whom they were quartered, there would be found petty fogging attorneys on the watch to take advantage of the slightest circumstance that could afford any ground whatever for menaces of indictments, or actual prosecutions for perjury. Both the clauses being added to the bill, it immediately passed, and was ordered to the lords.
[AGRICULTURAL HORSE DUTY BILL.]
On the order of the day being moved for the 2nd reading of this bill,
Mr. Plumer
rose to object to it; his reason for doing so was, that the duty bore, with a very extraordinary degree of pressure, on the farmer; and, consquently, in the end, on the landed interest. The farmers of this country, he said, were by no means that very opulent class of men they had been falsely represented to be, and he was well convinced, the times were better
862
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he really thought the bill would not produce the pressure which some gentlemen apprehended, He believed the tax would fall on the consumer; and the increase it, would create in the price of the article of corn would amount to a sum so trifling, that no one could think it any inconvenience to any body. The whole of the duty was estimated at 300,000l. one-third of which would be borne by those who kept horses for trades in large towns, brewers and the like, so that the whole amount of the duty on husbandry was only 200,000l. The amount of the rental of England alone was 37 millions; including Scotland, it was 40 millions. The produce of land had been calculated under the mark many years ago, and since which great improvements had been made; in no case was it calculated at less than 3 tines the rent; in many it was 5 and 6 times that amount; but taking it moderately, at 4 times the rent, the annual produce would then be 100 sterling. Now, this duty was only one 7 50th part of that produce on the whole average of the kingdom; and taking the bill in the most objectionable shape in which gentlemen chose to put it, that was, distinguishing the arable from pasture land, and taking it to be more on the arable than on the pasture, it would then be the
863
Mr. Coke (of Norfolk)
said, he was perfeetly convinced the operation of it would be to take away all inclination to agricultural improvements. There were at this moment fewer horses employed than when the last tax took place, and there could not be a doubt but that, from this additional tax, the number would continue to decrease, which must of course prove an injury to the general interests of agriculture. It would prevent the bringing of marle from any considerable distance, and render the carriage of every kind of manure more difficult and tedious, from the decrease in the number of horses. He was thoroughly satisfied, that if the tax took place, the same quantity of corn would not be grown as had been heretofore, which must prove highly injurious to the country, and contribute to enhance the price of bread. It was, he said, an old, and he believed, a true saying, that when poverty once gets into the stable, it will not be long before it makes its way into the house. He warned the right hon. gent. that the farmer might be induced, in many places, to substitute oxen to perform the offices of agriculture. In every part of a country like this, there would be always a prevalence of local prejudices; he could wish they were not so common. In Norfolk, where farming was carried to a great degree of nicety, he believed there was no such thing known as the use of oxen in husbandry, but it was otherwise in many other counties, and might be brought into far more general use in those counties where there was more grazing land. If the farmer did not receive a fair remuneration, there could be no doubt his corn would grow less. From all these considerations, therefore, he should certainly vote against the motion.
Sir W. W. Wynne
argued that the present tax would bear heavily, in particular on the holders of mountainous farms, where six horses are sometimes required to do work which two could perform in a low flat country. He hoped also that there would be an exemption, if the bill were persevered in, of horses under 14½ hands high.
864
Mr. Fox
said, that although farms of 20l. a year were exempt, yet thousands of small farms were now subject to the tax, and ought to be relieved from its pressure.
Mr. Giles
opposed it as immediately pressing hard on agriculture, and would not soon fail to fall on the consnmer. He had, however, one objection to the tax entirely, and that was, a breach of faith with the farmers. They were only to be taxed three-fourths of their rents, which was an estimation of his profits, and you cannot lay a direct tax on the profits of the farmer without making an alteration in his property tax; for if you lay a tax on him, you diminish his profits, which cannot be done without a breach of faith.
Mr. Canning
contended that the arguments of the hon. gent. who spoke last, proved too much, and therefore ought not to weigh in the consideration of a measure of this nature.
Mr. Grey
said, that he agreed with all his hon. friends, that a more injurious tax could not be proposed. If we are to bear additional burdens, that cannot be done without attending to the principal resources of the country. He was doubtful as to the real policy of the corn bill, but sure he was, in his own mind, that the less parliament interfered in matter of that kind, the better. In every view of it, he thought there could not be a more impolitic tax than the present, for it would operate as a discouragement to agriculture, and consequently prove highly injurious to the country.—After this a desultory conversation took place: Sir R. Buxton, Mr. Bastard, and Mr. Fellows, opposed the Bill; the Attorney General and Mr. Huskisson supported it; after which the house divided: For the second reading 73—Against it 76—Majority against the Bill 3.
[SALT DUTY BILL.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
declared his intention to propose in the committee an alteration with respect to the duty in Scotland. The increase would be proportionate to the present rate of duty in that country and here. If this was not exactly fair, consistently with the qualities of the salt in both countries, he pledged himself, on inquiry, to bring it to the proper standard. After a short conversation the house divided: For the second, reading 92—Against it 54—Majority 38.—The bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be committed,—Adjourned.
865
APPENDIX TO THE PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES.
VOL. III.
PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
THE FIRST REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY, APPOINTED BY ACT 43 GEO. III.—
Ordered to be printed
th May,
NAVAL STOREKEEPERS AT JAMAICA.
The First Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the 43rd Year of the Reign of His present Majesty, intituled, "An Act for appointing Commissioners to enquire and examine into any Irregularities, Frauds, or Abuses, which are or have been practised by Persons employed in the several Naval Departments therein mentioned, and in the Business of Prize Agency, and to report such Observations as shall occur to them for preventing such Irregularities, Frauds, and Abuses, and for the better conducting and managing the Business of the said Departments, and of Prize Agency in future."
THE Act of Parliament having passed, by which we were constituted commissioners to enquire and examine into any irregularities, frauds, or abuses which are, or have been practised by persons employed in the several naval departments therein mentioned, and in the business of prize agency; we immediately took the oath prescribed, and after settling the necessary arrangements of office, proceeded without delay to the execution of the duties imposed on us by the act.—To enable us more readily to fulfil the intentions of the legislature, we required the right hon. the lords commissioners of the admiralty to lay before us any information they had collected relative to the objects of our enquiry. In compliance with this requisition, we received from their lordships the examinations and minutes taken on their late visitation to the Dock Yards, with copies of their correspondence with the
866
867
868
869
870
871
872
873
874
875
In the Mouth of January
Description of Stores.
Quantity purchased.
Rate in Sterling.
Amount in Sterling.
Cost in England.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Masts, American
63 No
£.
1,238
9
8
198
18
8
Masts and Yards, American
21 —
17/10¼ per in.
117
7
9
34
16
3
Copper Sheets, improved Sort
9,320lbs.
6/3 per lb.
2,912
10
0
553
7
6
Countersunk Nails
2,240 —
6/3
700
0
0
154
0
0
cwt.
qrs.
lbs.
Cablets, Hawsers, and Rope
1663
1
21
£.
13,307
10
0
4,421
19
5
Blocks, single
378 —
8½
d.
103
4
1
43
16
1
double
92 —
1/5 per inch.
51
9
11
21
9
5
Iron Nails
1188—
10
d.
49
10
0
20
8
0
Black Varnish
300 g
s
9/6¼ per gn
142
16
3
33
1
11
Lines, white
140
9/6¼ each
66
12
11
4
17
8
Log
200
4/2
41
13
4
6
2
0
Paint Brushes, large
200
28/6¾ doz.
23
16
0
6
5
0
small
100
23/2½
9
13
4
1
17
6
Hammocks
90
17/10¼ each
80
6
10
16
2
6
Tar Brushes
80
39/3¼ doz.
13
1
9
1
18
7
Tinsheets, single
40 dozen
9/6¼
19
0
10
6
0
0
Paint
3580 lbs
9¼
d.
137
19
7
73
6
8
Compasses Brass Box
12 No
57/1½ each
34
5
6
16
4
0
Locks, spring double
36 —
7/1½ each
12
16
6
12
2
3
hanging
100 —
28/6¾ doz.
11
18
0
12
4
9
Fearnought
507 yards
2/4½ yards
60
4
1
43
6
1
Lanthorns, Hand
60 No
10/1¼ each
30
6
3
6
5
0
In the Month of February
Cables, Cablets, Hawsers, Rope and Boltrope, and Spunyarn
273,992lbs.
£
18,589
8
6
6,462
5
11
Copper Sheets, 24 dozen
10,101 lbs.
5/4 ¾lb.
4,748
19
11
1,091
9
6
21
8,610
4/9
Nails 1¾ In.
1,459
5/4¼lb.
997
17
5
322
0
4
1¼
2,557
4/9
13,569
7
2
Allow 15 per Cent. for Freight, &c.
2,035
8
0
43,500
18
5
15,604
15
2
Supposing an equal difference to have prevailed between the prices at home and abroad, during the period of Mr. Dick's holding his office, the whole amount of the loss to government would have been 134,557l. 18s. 2d. st. on his purchases.—Cordage, the most considerable article in the storekeeper's purchases, appears, by the documents laid before us, to have been bought by Mr. Dick in Oct. and Nov. 1799, at the rate of 216l. st. per ton, which would have cost in England at that time 53l. 3s. 4d. but we have rather chosen to rest our conclusions on this subject, upon his account of purchases of a variety of articles, made in the course of 2 months, as extracted from his cash accounts.
876
But it is not to be supposed, that, with every care in the transmission of his accounts and demands, and equal attention in forwarding the supplies, all necessity for purchasing stores could have been prevented; allowing therefore ¼, or even ⅓ part, to be deducted from his account, there would still remain a sum of very great magnitude, enough to shew the nature and extent of the loss to which government has been in this instance subjected, and is always liable to suffer, by such practices.—We have investigated this instance of abuse, as far as it laid in our power, more minutely perhaps than was requisite, for the purpose of displaying it in such a form, as to prove the truth of its ex-
877
878
879
Form for Bills of Exchange.
I. S. D.
Par
Per Cent.
Premium
Discount
Actual rate of exchange
Per Cent.
£.
Sterling.
(Place)
(Date)
Gentlemen,
Thirty days after sight of this my first bill of exchange (the second and third of the same tenor and date being unpaid) please to pay to A. B. or his order, the sum of (expressed in words) sterling, for which I have received the sum of (expressed in words) in the currency of this place, and no more, being equal to the sum of (expressed in words) sterling. C. D.
To the Principal Officers and Commissioners of His Majesty's Navy, London.
We do hereby certify that the rate of exchange was as above stated, and as expressed in the body of the bill, on the day of
E. F.
Two principal merchants.
G. H.
I approve this bill, and believe the exchange to be fairly staled.
J. K. Commander in Chief.
These are to certify, that his majesty's service required the draft for the above sum.
L. M.
Yard Officers.
N. O.
Form for keeping the Dr. Side of the Cash Accounts.
Date
No. of Bill.
Amt. stevling
In whose favour drawn.
Par.
Rate of exchange.
Prem. Per Cent.
Disct. Per Cent.
Full Exchange In Sterling.
Full Exchange in currency.
Yet we think both the public and private accounts would be much simplified, were it the general practice to add the premium to, or deduct the discount from the par or fixed rate of exchange; agreeably to the
880
881
882
883
884
885
An Account of the Income derived by the Naval Officer at Jamaica, from the Salary and established Allowances made to him by the Public; distinguishing each Year.
NATURE OF ALLOWANCE.
1797.
1798.
1799.
1800.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Salary
200
0
0
200
0
0
200
0
0
200
0
0
Allowance for Boat-hire of 10
s.
156
10
0
156
10
0
156
10
0
156
10
0
Allowance of 1¼ per cent. upon his Disbursements taken from the Amount of Bills drawn upon Government
887
10
0
687
10
0
1,425
0
0
1,550
0
0
Allowance for House Rent
30
0
0
30
0
0
from this Time House allow.
* Emolument from the Victualling of the Artificers on an average of the account of 2 years, as received from the Victualling Office
162
0
11
162
0
11
162
0
11
162
0
11
£.
0
11
1,236
0
11
1,943
10
11
2,068
10
11
Besides an allowance for issuing Slops of 5
s.
* We have charged this as an emolument, it being taken as an average from the balance of his victualling account, although the amount has not been received by Mr Dick, payment being withheld by the commissioners of the victualling on account of a debt due from him to that department, as purser of his majesty's ship Ramillies. It may be observed, that we bring into the account his commission on the whole of his expenditure, whilst we reprobate great part of the purchases on which this commission chiefly arose; the commission on the whole amount of his purchases is 2,622l. 16s. 11d. deducting even one-third of this, it would have left him an annual average income of 1,452l. 9s. 6d. st. which we think must be considered such a compensation as might have secured the public his best services, without grasping at further emolument.—The examination of Mr. Dick brought to our notice certain possessions belonging to the crown under the superintendance of the naval storekeeper at Jamaica; of which there appears to have been kept a very imperfect account. What records of crown lands there may be preserved at the other stations abroad, under the naval departments of the state, we have not had an opportunity of knowing; it was not indeed the object of our researches, but having fallen in our way, we did not think it right to pass it by without some observation, in order to draw the public attention to the subject in other cases where it may be required.—At the same time that we have been induced to propose some alterations in the general instructions to the officers of his majesty's foreign yards, we think it just to observe, that they appear to have been drawn up with great care and attention to the public interest, and to. offer abundant
886
CHA. M. POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HY. NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
SECOND REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
Ordered to be printed 6th June
CHEST AT CHATHAM.
The Second Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the 43rd year of the reign of His present Majesty, intituled, "An Act for appointing Commissioners to enquire and examine into "any Irregularities, Frauds, or Abuses, "which are or have been practised by "Persons employed in the several Naval "Departments therein mentioned, and in. "the Business of Prize Agency, and to "report such Observations as shall occur "to them for preventing such Irregularities, Frauds, and Abuses, and for the. "better conducting and managing the "Business of the said Departments, and "of Prize Agency, in future."
ON considering the different subjects to which our enquiries had been directed by the legislature, the institution for the relief of Seamen maimed and wounded in the service of their country, denominated "The "Chest at Chatham," seemed to claim our
887
888
889
General Abstract of the Receipts and Chatham, for the Year 1802.
RECEIPTS.
Balance remaining in the Chest, brought forward
£.
7
11
* Received from the treasurer of the navy, on account of defalcations from the wages of seamen
50,000
0
0
Abatement on navy officers bills
288
6
6
Interest on money in the funds
6,660
0
0
Rents and fines of estates
1,376
2
0
Gift, being the produce of 10,0001. 5 per cent. consols, given by a person unknown, who presented a like sum to Greenwich hospital
6,849
11
9
£.
8
2
* The actual defalcations taken from the books in this year, amounted to 78,863l. 18s. 5½d. of which 50,000l. only was receive on account.
DISBURSEMENTS.
The number of pensioners on the books in the year 1803, was 8,094; those actually paid were 5,205, whose pensions amounted to
£.
9
8
For present relief
3,577
3
4
To men whose cases were not deemed pensionable
3,139
1
0
To men discharged well, and to Greenwich Hospital
583
18
10
For the purchase of stock
28,786
13
6
Expences of the establishment
1,259
17
8½
Repairs, &c. of estates
2,159
1
6½
£.
5
7
Names of Farms.
When purchased.
Acres.
Cost.
Then Rent.
Average Net Receipt for the last 20 Years.
Present Rent.
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
Fort Farm, situated at Chislet near Canterbury
1617
166
1,870
92
130
9
5
130
Newlands, in the Hundred of Hoo St. Mary's
1632
130
900
50
69
13
5
90
Seccles in the Isle of Sheppey
1641
406
2,324
100
88
18
11
105
Mackland in Rainham and Upchurch
1647
269
1,900
100
141
15
2
156
Total
971
6,994
342
430
16
11
461
By the evidence of Mr. E. Soan Twopeny, it would appear, that the estates were never surveyed previous to his becoming the attorney of the Chest; that no circumstances have existed to prevent their increasing equally in value with other lands, except
890
Mackland, a part of which has been washed away by the sea; and that the estate called Scocles, leased in 1789 for 21 years, at 105l. is worth from 3 to 4000l. per ann.—It also appears, that the 12 acres of marsh land given by K. Chs, II. instead of producing any profit
891
892
893
894
895
896
897
Proposed Establishment.
Present Establishment.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
5 Directors, in addition to the pay received by them from the hospital, at60l. per ann. each
500
—
—
9 Governors, 3 of them being-officers of the dock yard, receive no emolument; the six other governors
483
—
—
1 Surgeon, in addition to the pay from the hospital
50
—
—
1 Surgeon, being the surgeon of the yard
—
—
—
1 Assistant in addition to the pay from the hospital
30
—
—
1 Assistant being the surgcon of the yard
70
—
—
1 Accountant
300
—
—
1 Accountant
100
—
—
1st Clerk to Accountant
£.
2d Clerk to Accountant
100
240
—
—
Clerks
222
5
6
Cheque upon the treasurer of the Navy
60
—
—
Cheque upon the treasurer of the navy, including travelling expences and subsistence at Chatham during the general payment
106
—
—
1 Doorkeeper
being pensioners residing in the hospital
10
—
—
1 Door-keeper
28
17
—
1 Messenger
10
—
—
Assistant 1 Door-keeper
18
7
—
Messenger
8
16
—
Attorney
30
—
—
Attorney's bill
14
6
8
Disbursements for breakfasts for the governors and officers of the Chest
96
13
2
Conducting money from London
8
15
—
Coals
as at present
1
18
—
Coals
1
18
—
Stationary
20
2
10½
Stationary
20
2
10½
Postage
15
5
10
Postage
15
5
10
Various petty accounts
30
16
8
Various petty accounts
30
16
8
£.
3
4½
£.
3
8½
The expence of the present establishment, as above, is 4l. 14s, less than the sum stated in the body of the Report, arising from an error in the accounts with which we have been furnished.
Some difference will be observed between the expence of the present and the proposed establishment. A further advantage will be derived by the sale of estates; but these are inferior considerations compared with the comfort and relief afforded to the pensioners, by their being paid at their own homes, and thereby rescued from the exactions of the agents, amounting in some cases to 7½, in
898
rest with the directors; and we beg leave to suggest, that a considerable advantage might, in the first instance, arise from the employment of the present accountant to the Chest, who appeared to us fully qualified for the situation:—11. The allowance to the several officers and clerks, we propose may be as follows; against which we have placed the expence or the present establishment, together with such charges as will be avoided by the removal of the Chest to Greenwich.
others to 25l. per cent. besides the expence of remittance.
CHAS. MORICE POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLIS, (L. S.)
Office of Naval Enquiry, No. 24, Great George-street, 4th June, 1803.
899
THIRD REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
Ordered to be printed
th June,
BLOCK CONTRACT.
COOPER'S CONTRACT.
The Third Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the 43d Year of the Reign of his present Majesty, intituled, "An Act for appointing Com-"missioners to enquire and examine "into Irregularities, Frauds, or Abuses, "which are or have been practised by "Persons employed in the several Naval "Departments therein mentioned, and "in the Business of Prize Agency, and "to report such Observations as shall "occur to them for preventing such Irre-"gularities, Frauds, and Abuses, and for "the better conducting and managing "the Business of the said Departments, "and of Prize Agency, in future."
BLOCK CONTRACT.
HAVING had reason to apprehend that some irregularities had obtained in supplying His Majesty's Navy with Blockmaker's wares, we were, in pursuance of the duty imposed on us by the legislature, induced to call on the principal officers and commissioners of His Majesty's Navy for a copy of their Contract with Mr. Walter Taylor of Southampton, and for copies of their several warrants to the officers of the yards, for increasing and reducing the Prices of the articles to be supplied.—This Contract was not made according to the genera practice of the Navy Board, by public advertisement for tenders, and closing will the person making the lowest, but the terms offered by Mr. Taylor, having been deemed advantageous to the public by the Navy Board, were submitted to the consideration of the right hon. the Lords Commissioner of the Admiralty, and approved.—The Contract is dated the 8th of April 1791, by which Mr. Taylor engaged to supply His Majesty's Yards at Deptford, Woolwich Chatham, Sheerness, Portsmouth, and Plymouth, with Blockmaker's wares, at an abatement of 10 per cent. from the price specified in a former Contract, dated the 30th Sept. 1779, and from the prices o additional articles enumerated in this Contract; for which he was to have bills mad out, as he demanded them, to be paid in course, according to the rules of the Navy; and to the amount of his bills was to b added-the discount which navy bills might
900
901
902
903
904
Capstern Bars
Eight Pence per Foot
Common Handspikes
One Shilling each,
Pump Brakes
One Shilling & Two Pence each.
The advance granted by the above warrant on Capstern Bars, an article of considerable consumption and expence, amounts to 60 per cent. but we find a difficulty in stating the precise advance on the other articles, as Common Handspikes, from 7 to 6 feet long, were by the Contract to be charged 10d. and of 7½ feet long, One Shilling; and Pump Brakes, from 7 to 6 feet long, 1s. and from 6 to 5 feet, 11d.: the directions to increase these articles, of different lengths, and before of different prices, to one specific price, we conceive arose from a want of reference to the Contract at the time of making the warrant.—Having some doubt whether the Navy Board intended that the Prices of Ash Goods, so increased, should be further raised by any per centage advances which might afterwards be granted on articles, the specific prices of which had not been increased, we called on them, and were informed it was their intention, when, they issued the warrant, that the specific prices granted thereby should be subject to the abatements and advances of the then existing and subsequent warrants: if such intention had been expressed in the warrant, it would have prevented much irregularity in the execution of it.—Mr. Walter Taylor and son, in their letter of the 23d of June 180O, stated to the Navy Board the great disadvantage they had laboured under from the price and quality of Lignum Vitæ ever since the year 1795; that they were no
905
906
907
908
909
"Magnificent, Spithead, 25t March, 1791.
"Sir, In compliance with your order of "the 24th inst. I repaired, in company with "the undersigned captains, to his Majesty's "Dock Yard, to surveying the Blocks furnished by Messrs. Garnett and Co. to His Majesty'sship Formidable, to compare the defects "peculiar to their invention with the defects common to other Blocks. After an "accurate and minute survey of the said "Blocks, we are unanimously of opinion, "that there is no defect whatever in the "invention or construction of the said "Blocks; but, on the contrary, a manifest "superiority to any other contrivance of "Block that has ever been offered to our "use or inspection. We are, &c.
(Signed) "RD. ONSLOW.
"JAS. WALLACE.
"JNO. COLPOYS.
"GEO. MONTAGUE.
"J. HOLLOWAY.
"Vice Admiral Roddam, &c. &.
There is not any notice taken of a Patent in Mr. Walter Taylor's Contract; it has, however, been stated to us by his son, that
910
911
912
CHAS. MORICE POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLAS, (L. S.)
913
COOPERS CONTRACT.
A CASE of gross fraud, committed under the Contract for the performance of Cooper's Work, and for the Supply of Cooper's Wares at His Majesty's Yard at Woolwich, having been, by order of the right hon. the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty, laid before the Attorney General, it was recommended by him to be communicated to us.—The nature of this fraud being fully set forth in the Representations of the Navy Board, and the case being now under the consideration of the law officers of the crown, to determine the mode of proceeding against the delinquents, we have not judged it necessary to employ our time in going more minutely into the enquiry—On examining the Certificates for Goods delivered, containing the fraudulent charges, we discovered errors which it would be improper to pass without notice; we shall therefore make some observations on them, and then proceed to state the frauds which have been detected.—The Contract for Cooper's Wares to be delivered at Woolwich Yards was held by Mr. William Gunton till the 25th of May 1745; upon his decease, a new Contract was entered into with his widow; and upon her death, the Contract was granted on the 28th Feb. 1782, at an advance of 35 per cent. on
Woolwich Yard, 27th March 1801.
Registered 30th March, 1801. No. 3,365 Extra.
THESE are to certify, that Messrs. Michael and John Hedges have delivered the Provisions following into His Majesty's Stores here, between 19th Sept. 1800 and 24th March 1801, per Contracts 8th April 1745, and 28th Feb. 1782.—Warrants 2d June 1800, and 24th March 1801.
Cooper's Wares.
On Account of the Extra.
No.
Rate.
Value.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Numb, of Buoys 3d Rate
11
0
13
10
7
12
2
Numb, of Buoys 5th Rate
22
0
10
0
11
0
0
Numb, of Buoys 6th Rate
15
0
9
0
6
15
0
Numb. of Buoys Large Sloops Rate
33
0
8
0
13
14
0
Buckets, single iron-bound Large Sloops
47doz
0
9
0
21
9
0
Iron Hoops on iron-bound Large Sloops
1,716
0
0
4
28
12
0
Puncheons Large Sloops
12
0
7
0
4
4
0
Barrels bound Wood-tight Large Sloops
2
0
3
6
0
7
0
Rundlets with 4 iron hoops, 8 Gallons
4
0
2
9
0
11
0
Rundlets with 4 iron hoops, 6 Gallons
18
0
2
0
1
16
0
Rundlets with 4 iron hoops, 4 Gallons
30
1
8
0
2
10
0
Bearing Tubs
12
0
5
6
3
6
0
Hoops set on Press Barrels
5,460
0
0
3
68
5
0
Smart Hoops set on Barrels
6,520
0
0
0½
13
11
8
New Heads made, put in Press Barrels
390
0
0
4½
7
6
3
Press Barrels cross-barred
390
0
0
1
1
12
6
£.
192
1
7
914
the former prices, to Messrs. Young, Adams, and Corson, in trust for her orphans, Messrs. Michael and John Hedges, who took the Contract into their own hands on the 2d June 1800.—On the 26th of Aug. 1785, an arrangement was made by the Navy Board with all persons holding Contracts under them, for abatements in their prices, on condition that the current discount which Navy Bills might appear to bear by Castaing's paper of the prices of stock, should be added to the amount of their bills; the abatement settled with Messrs. Young, Adams, and Corson, was 20 per cent.—Other articles, not specified in the Contract, were at different times required for the service of the Yard; these Messrs. Young, Adams, and Corson, engaged to supply, and the Navy Board issued their warrants to the officers of the Yard for their guidance in making out Certificates for such articles.—In our report on the Block Contract, we stated the errors to which the Certificates for Goods delivered were liable, from the variety of Advances and Abatements directed by the Warrants of the Navy Board. To confirm the observations there made, we insert a copy of a Certificate for goods delivered, and work performed under the Contract for Cooper's Wares; and subjoin an account of the mistakes that appear in it.
915
Cooper's Wares.
On Account of the Extra.
No.
Rate.
Value.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
More at 351. per Cent.
67
4
6
Warrant 3d March 1791.
Stockholm Barrels hooped
1,110
0
1
6
83
5
0
Warrant 7th Oct. 1795.
* Tar Barrels trimmed and set to rights
3,006
0
0
9
112
14
6
£.
455
5
7
Abate 201. per Cent.
91
1
1
Warrant 6th March 1798.
364
4
6
Extra Iron Hoops on Tar Barrels
2,220
0
0
7
64
15
0
Warrant 6th and 24th Dec. 1798.
Add 101. per Cent. on 1921. 1s. 7d.
19
4
I
Warrant 30th Aug. 1800.
Wood Hoops on Tar Casks
5,376
0
0
2
44
16
0
Warrant 2d March 1801.
R. PERING.
Tar Barrels, watering, filling and bunging
2,896
0
0
2
24
2
8
Storekeeper.
Wood Hoops on watering, filling and bunging
5,584
0
0
1
23
5
4
Warrant 17th June 1793.
bdle
* Hoops, streight, for Ship's Quarters
950
0
3
6
166
5
0
J. JEFFERY, Clerk of the Cheque.
706
12
7
The Whole Sum is Seven Hundred and Six Pounds Twelve Shillings and Seven Pence.
Indorsed as follows:
Bill of Exchange, 30th June 1801.
"The Provisions mentioned herein, are good and fitting for the Service of His Majesty's Navy, and agreeably to Contract and Warrant, by which the same were received."
JOHN TOVERY,
Master Shipwright.
GEORGE GAINER,
Clerk of the Survey.
28th March 1801,
30th March 1801,
The warrant of the 17th of June 1793, expressly directs an abatement of 20 per. cent. to be made from the prices of hoops streight for "Ships Quarters:"—In the certificate, this article amounting to 166l. 5s. is charged without any abatement, by which there is a loss to the public of 33l. 5s.—The warrant of the 7th of Oct. 1795, fixes a price for pitch and tar barrels trimmed and set to rights, without any mention of abatement; yet on this article, in the certificate, amounting to 112l. 14s. 6d. an abatement of 20 per cent. is made, by which there is a loss to the contractor of 22l. 10s. 10d.—The difference between these erroneous charges is 10l. 14s. 2d. a loss to the public, in itself, of a trifling amount; but it furnishes an example of the confusion and error to which these complicated calculations are exposed, even where no improper motive, as in this instance, can be supposed to have operated, the errors being both for and against the contractor.—We have also entered in the appendix, the warrant of the 6th of March 1798, fixing a price on extra iron hoops put on tar barrels, not because there is any mistake made in the charge of this article, but to shew how differently this warrant, although similar in terms, has been acted upon from that of the 7th of Oct. 1795, an abatement of 20 per cent. being made under the latter, whilst
916
Statement taken from the Navy Board's Letter of the
th July
£.
s.
d.
Charge made by Messrs. Michael and John Hedges, for Cooper's work at Woolwich Yard, between the 12th Dec. 1801 and 1st May 1802
1,020
10
5
Amount of the work actually performed, and of the materials delivered
37
2
3
Difference
£.
983
8
2
917
Statement taken from tie Nary Board's Letter of the
th Aug.
£.
s.
d.
Total amount of bills made out to Messrs. Michael and John Hedges, for workmanship, between the 11th March and the 11th Dec. 1801
2,650
18
9
The amount of Cooper's Work performed during the same period, taken from the best information the Yard Officers have been able to collect
227
4
9
By which, the amount of the Fraud, exclusive of the pending bill before stated, amounts to
£.
14
0
Had not these Frauds, by mere accident, been discovered, it is impossible to say how long they might have continued; it is equally uncertain for what length of time they have been carried on: that they existed prior to the Contracts being transferred by the trustees to Mess. Michael and John Hedges, is proved by the workmanship book of the Yard, relating to Hoops set on Ships Masts; by which it appears, that the Hoops charged to the
Whole No. requisite for such ships.
Amelia, 1st Dec. 1798, were
120
46
Chichester, 18th Jan. 1799 were
120
20
Amazon, 6th April 1799 were
120
40
Severn, 13th April 1799 were
120
46
Inconstant, 30th Nov. were
240
40
A reference to the Statement of Mr. Stephen Tadd, master mast-maker, and of Mr. Joseph Baker, master rope-maker, will shew other instances of similar impositions, the whole proving the facility with which such Frauds may be practised, the want of further checks for their prevention, and the necessity of a more careful examination of the accounts; for although the employing a Cooper in each of his Majesty's Yards, as proposed by the Navy Board, may prevent a recurrence of the abuses of which we have been speaking, yet it can hardly be supposed that mere accident had discovered the only instances in which Frauds of this nature have been committed.—The difficulty of establishing effectual means to prevent Frauds and Abuses, must necessarily be in proportion to the want of exertion in the superintending power: we therefore recommend, in order to draw the attention of the officers more directly to the expence of the several Yards, that they be ordered to make out and forward annually to the Navy Board, an Abstract Account of the Yearly Expence of their respective Yards, made up to the 31st Dec.
918
CHAS. M. POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
Office of Naval Enquiry, No. 24, Great George-street, 13th June 1803.
FOURTH REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
Ordered to be printed
th July
PRIZE AGENCY.
The Fourth Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the 43rd Year of the Reign of His present Majesty, intituled, "An Act for appointing Commissioners to enquire and examine into "any Irregularities, Frauds, or Abuses, "which are or have been practised by "Persons employed in the several Naval "Departments therein mentioned, and "in the Business of Prize Agency, and to "report such Observations as shall occur "to them for preventing such Irregularities, Frauds, and Abuses, and for the "better conducting and managing the "Business of the said Departments, and "of Prize Agency, in future."
A RENEWAL of hostilities between this country and France has led us to make an immediate enquiry into the business of Prize
919
"At the commencement of a war, and "upon the King's issuing a proclamation for "the distribution of Prize Money, it is the "practice of the officers and companies of "His Majesty's ships, on taking Prizes, and "sending them into port, generally to transmit a letter of attorney to one or more "persons to act as their agents, unless they "may have made such appointment previous to their proceeding to sea.—By the "act of parliament*, a majority of each
*33 Geo. III. c. 66. s. 50.
920
* 33 Geo. III. c. 66. s. 23. † Ibid.
921
* 38 Geo. III. c. 38.
† 33 Geo. III. c. 66. s. 31.
‡ 33 Geo. III. c. 66. s. 60.
§ 33 Geo. III. c. 66. s. 56.
922
From this Account given by Mr. Maxwell, it will have been perceived, that the Business of a Prize Agent, which begins with the first arrival of a captured vessel in port, continues during the suit till acquittal or condemnation; in case of appeal, till final adjudication; and is not concluded, where the Prize is condemned, till after it has been distributed, and the unclaimed and forfeited shares have been paid over to the Treasurer of Greenwich Hospital.—The Duties of a Prize Agent have already been touched upon in the Account given of his Practice; but we think it may be of service that we should introduce into this Report a more particular Statement of them. And we propose to do this by giving Extracts from those Clauses in the Prize Act, passed in the 33rd year of His present Majesty's reign, ch. 66th, which prescribed the Agent's duty during the last war.
Sect. 51. Every person who shall be appointed Agent for any Prize taken by any ship of war, or for receiving the bounty thereinafter granted, which Prize shall be condemned, shall register his letter of attorney in the court where the Prize shall be condemned; and if he refuse or neglect to do so for 6 calendar months after sentence of condemnation, he shall forfeit 500l.—Sect. 33. A Prize Agent, appointed after Sentence of Condemnation, shall, under the same penalty, register his letter of attorney in like manner, within 6 calendar months after the date thereof.—Sect. 54. The Registrars of the Courts shall every year make out copies of the letters of attorney so registered, to be
* 33 Geo. III. c. 66. s. 62.
† Ibid.
923
in Great Britain,
*
Quære
924
the said Accounts so attested upon Oath as aforesaid *,
* By the words in italics, it appear to have been the intention of the legislature that all the accounts mentioned in this section should be verified by oath; but the Account of Money remaining in the Agent's, Hands is the only one expressly required to be so verified.
†
Quære
925
every person or persons
and his and their aiders and abettors,
over and above the penalties and punishments inflicted by this act,
The provisions of the legislature, stated in the foregoing abstracts from the statute, have apparently two great objects in view; one, to notify and secure to a meritorious body of men the reward of their exertions and gallant actions; the other, to notify and secure to Greenwich Hospital, for the benefit of that noble charity, such shares of Prize and Bounty money, as by accident or neglect might remain unclaimed, or by desertion and other causes might become forfeited.—The avowed emolument of a Prize Agent arises from his Commission, which is, generally speaking, 5 per cent. on the gross proceeds of Captures finally adjudged to be lawful Prize. If the goods taken be subject to heavy duties, the amount is sometimes deducted from the proceeds before the commission is charged. We say, the avowed emolument, because we understand this to be the only remuneration for his services, to which he is entitled by usage, where he does not make a special agreement with his employers; but there is a farther emolument enjoyed by him in many instances, which ought not to be permitted, and of which we shall speak further hereafter; namely, the use of the proceeds of Captures, to an enormous amount, which frequently remain in his
* Tuare—If the legislature meant that the whole amount of the penalty should be 100l. whether the offence were committed by one or many; and what penalties and publishments are here referred to, the statue not containing any other penal provisions against fraud?
926
IRREGULARITIES, ABUSES, AND FRAUDS.
We now proceed to the head of Irregularities, Abuses, and Frauds.—The mischiefs in the present system of Prize Agency, of which we have had proof in the course of this enquiry, fall under the description of Abuses and Irregularities, rather than Fraud. We find no reason for subjecting to general censure, or involving in general disrepute, the persons concerned
927
928
929
930
s.
931
932
933
934
935
We have now closed our account of those instances of Abuses, Irregularities, and Defects, in the present system, which have appeared to deserve notice in the course of our enquiry. If it should be thought that they are less numerous, or less important than might have been expected, it may be observed, that it is an extremely difficult and invidious task to draw a discovery of incorrect or illegal transactions from parties interested or concerned in them; and that the statute from which our powers are derived, discountenances enquiries which tend to make the parties examined criminate themselves, or to expose them to pains or penalties.—The same observation applies, if it should be objected, that our enquiry has not led to a copious disclosure of gross and abominable Frauds practised upon sailors with respect to their Prize Money; besides, it should be remembered, that many of the frauds by which they suffer, do not so much arise in the business of Prize Agency, as in the tricks and impositions of persons not engaged in that business, and consequently not within the scope of our enquiry. Still the general complaint, that sailors are often cheated by anticipation of all their future Prize Money, leads us to suggest, that possibly this might in some measure be presented, if it were enacted, that no Transfer by Deed, Will, or otherwise, or Agreement for a Transfer of any share of Prize Money, executed or made before Notifica-
936
PLAN OF A GENERAL FRIZE OFFICE.
The remainder of this Report will be employed in proposing Remedies for the Evils before noticed. It is not a new idea that a General Prize Office established by government would be an institution of public utility. Such an institution has been thought necessary by many persons well versed in Prize Affairs, and by some naval characters of great talent and respectability. It appears to us the only plan from which the abolition, or effectual reform of the Irregularities and Abuses in the present system of Prize Agency, can reasonably be expected.—We have therefore directed our thoughts to the Formation of such an Office, the Regulations by which it should be governed, the Expences which would probably attend the Establishment, and the Funds by which those Expences might be defrayed. The Plan proposed by us is as follows:—
1. That a Prize Office should be established in London, under the management of three commissioners, who should have agents or correspondents at Plymouth, Portsmouth, and Sheerness, and at Yarmouth, if occasion should require: the Expence of which establishment should be provided for in the manner hereafter mentioned.
2. That one Agent only, or two or more, being general partners in businesss, should be appointed to manage the interests of the captors, to be nominated by the ship actually making the capture: and that no person should receive any part of the commission charged by agents, or derive any benefit
937
bon00E1; fide
3. That before a Prize Agent be allowed to act, he should give security in the High Court of Admiralty at home, or in the Courts of Vice Admiralty abroad, in the sum of 5000l. for the due discharge of the trusts reposed in him; and in every suit at the time of commencing proceedings in the High Court of Admiralty, or Vice Admiralty Courts, he should give in his name and place of abode to the Registrar of the Court, which should be regularly transmitted every three months by the Registrar to the Commissioners for Prizes, with the names of the capturing and captured vessels, and an account of all Decrees given in Prize Causes within that period, whether of acquittal or condemnation.
4. That the Commission of Agency be 5 per cent. upon the Net Proceeds, to be appropriated as hereafter directed.
5. That where no Appeals shall be entered against the Condemnation of Prizes at home, and the Agent should not make Distribution within six months from the time of such condemnation, the amount of the Proceeds should be paid over to the Commissioners for Prizes, unless, upon a representation from the agent to the Commissioners, the proceeds should be permitted to remain in his hands for a longer period, not exceeding three months.
6. That where no Appeals shall be entered abroad, if the agent should not make distribution within nine months from the time of condemnation, the proceeds should be remitted to the Commissioners for Prizes, for the purpose of making distribution.
7. That all remittances should be made in government bills, if obtainable at the time when the agents may have occasion to remit.
8. That if the Agent make the distribution at home, within the time before specified, he should pay over the unclaimed shares to the Commissioners for Prizes at the expiration of one month from the time of distribution, and likewise 1 per cent. of the commission of 5 per cent. charged; and deliver a detailed account of the proceeds, together with the original Prize List, and a Copy of the Distribution List.
9. That if the Agent abroad make distribution within nine months from the time of
938
10. That the money paid by the agent to the Prize Office in cases not appealed, be lodged in the Bank, to be taken out by order of the Commissioners for Prizes, as occasion may require, for Distribution or Recalls.
11. That if the Agents, at home or abroad, should not make the Distribution within the times before specified for them respectively, then the Prize Office should make distribution, deducting the 5 per cent. commission as aforesaid, with the usual charges for advertisements, and distribution, as now made by the agents; and, when distribution shall have been made, the Prize Office should pay the agent 2½ per cent. of such commission.
12. That in cases of appeal from the decisions of the High Court of Admiralty, the proceeds be paid over by the agent to the Commissioners for Prizes, within four months from the time of condemnation, if the appeal should be entered within that time; and if the appeal should not be entered within that time, then within one month from the time of entering the appeal; unless, upon cause shewn by the agent, the commissioners should enlarge the time for such proceeds being paid over, for a period not exceeding two months; such proceeds to be by them immediately invested in the 3 per cent. consolidated Bank Annuities, if the books of that fund be then open, and if not, then in the 3 per cent. Reduced Annuities, in the names of the Commissioners for Prizes, with such descriptions as may keep the Accounts of the Proceeds of each capture distinct, after a sufficient sum for defraying the expences of the suit, to be judged of by the commissioners, shall have been advanced by them to the agent for the captors, he giving security for the same; and if the agent be dissatisfied with the sum proposed to be advanced by the commissioners, the High Court of Admiralty, upon application by the agent, should decide the amount of the money to be advanced.
13. That further sums, if judged necessary by the commissioners, should, be ad-
939
14. That the Commissioners for Prizes, from time to time, should receive the dividends, and vest the same in the funds for the benefit of the parties in whose favour the appeal shall be decided.
15. That at the time of paying over or remitting the proceeds, the agent should deliver the original Prize Lists of the ships entitled to share, and a detailed Account of the Sales, verified upon oath.
16. That in cases of appeal from the decisions of the Vice Admiralty Courts abroad, the agents should remit the amount of the Net Proceeds, after deducting the expences of sale and condemnation, as soon as may be, not exceeding six months from the time of such appeal being entered, by bills of exchange payable to the Commissioners for Prizes, together with the original Prize Lists of the ships entitled to share, and a detailed account of the sales, verified upon oath. And if the agents should wilfully, or without sufficient reason, retain the money beyond the period above specified, he should be liable to a penalty of 500l. besides one per cent. per mensem for such time as he shall hold the money in his hands, to be paid to the party or parties who shall eventually be entitled to the proceeds.
17. That upon the money being received by the Commissioners for Prizes, such sums as may be judged necessary by the commissioners shall be advanced to the correspondent of the agent, to defray the expence of prosecuting or defending the appeal.
18. That upon all remittances made to the Prize Office from the agent, he shall at the same time communicate the name and place of abode of his correspondent or agent in England.
19. That the amount of the proceeds, when received by the commissioners, should be invested in the Funds as before provided for in cases of appeal from the decisions of the High Court of Admiralty.
20. That in appealed cases, the amount of the proceeds having been paid to the Commissioners for Prizes, the Distribution and Recalls should be wholly made by the Prize Office, and the agent should receive 3 per cent. on the net proceeds.
21. That captains or commanders of his Majesty's ships and vessels, on quitting any of the foreign stations before distribution be made, may direct the proceeds of Prizes, or, in cases of joint captures, the proportions of their respective ships to be remitted
940
22. That all Recalls be made by the Commissioners for Prizes, who shall deliver accounts to the Treasurer of Greenwich Hospital of the unclaimed and forfeited shares, and pay over the amount at the expiration of the time now allowed.
23. That captains or commanders of his Majesty's ships or vessels transmit to the Prize Office an Account of Captures made by them, mentioning the agent to whom they shall be consigned, with his place of abode, the date of the capture, and where taken, and the names of the ships entitled to share for such capture.
24. That the Prize List sent to the agent contain the signature of the lieutenants and signing officers, and the ages and description of the persons entitled to share in the capture, to be taken from the Description Book, with an alphabetical list of the names affixed to it.
25. That the Agents should not send Accounts of Proceeds and Distribution Lists, as heretofore, to Greenwich Hospital, but to the Commissioners for Prizes, in the manner above directed.
26. That the paying or receiving of any share of Prize Money, before Notification of Distribution, should subject the agent paying, and the party receiving, to certain penalties; and that upon accounting with the Commissioners for Prizes, no deduction be made by the agent from the shares of Prize Money on account of money advanced by him; but that the full amount of the unpaid and forfeited shares should be paid over to the Commissioners for Prizes.
27. That no payment of shares to commissioned or warrant officers be allowed by the Commissioners for Prizes, other than such shares as shall be discharged in the Distribution Lists by payment to parties, or their orders, or lawful attornies, or the legal representatives of such officers deceased, or persons duly authorized by them; and that no payment to such officers, entered in such Distribution Lists as carried to account current, shall be deemed a legal discharge.
28. That the shares of Prize Money due to petty officers, seamen, and marines, be paid to the party, or person authorized by his order to receive the same, which order shall specify the name of the particular prize or distribution (should the distribution be
941
Ship
or
(Date.)
£
At three days sight, pay to A. B. or his order, the sum of —
(in writing)
(quality)
(ship or vessel)
(name.)
C. D.
To
or,
These are to certify, that we have examined the said C. D. who signed the above Order in our presence, and from the Documents —
(to be stated) —
(fair, brown, or saliow)
(dark, or light)
(black, brown, light, red, or grey)
(describing any other particularity of his person).
Given under our hands, G. H. Captain, I. K. Lieutenant, or Signing Officer of his Majesty's ship—
But if the party should not at the time of making the order belong to any of his majesty's ships, then shall be added, under the Description,
The said C. D. says he was discharged from his Majesty's ship or vessel the — by reason of
(his being invalided, or as the case may be)
L. M.
Minister,
of the parish of.— where the said C. D. resides—
N Q
Churchwardens,
or
P.Q.
29. That Prize Money due to petty officers, seamen, and marines deceased, should be paid to their representatives, upon production of the check to be granted by the inspector of seamen's wills.
30. That the Commissioners for Prizes should have authority to call for and examine the books and accounts of agents, so far as they may relate to the business of Prize Agency.
31. That the Treasurer of Greenwich Hospital, or his Deputy, should have liberty to examine the books and papers of the Prize Office.
32. That the notifications in the Gazette
942
33. That the Agents at home, at the time of Notification of Distribution, should inform the Commissioners for Prizes of the amount of the shares of the different classes, to be communicated to the agents or correspondents of the Prize Office at the ports, for the purpose of giving general information to the parties concerned in the captures.
34. That no fee, gratuity, or reward, beyond the established allowances, be taken by any person belonging to the General Prize Office for any service or services performed or to be performed; and that no person belonging to the Prize Office shall act as a Prize Agent, or Agent for the receipt of Prize Money.
35. That the correspondence of the General Prize Office should pass free of postage.
36. That there be an Establishment, consisting of the following officers and clerks; and that their respective salaries, and the contingent expences of the office, be as follows:
ESTABLISHMENT.
Annual Expence.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
Three Commissioners for the General Concerns of the Office, and any two of them to form a Board, at 800l. per ann. each
2,400
0
0
The First Commissioner to be Superintendant of Receipts and Investment.
The Second Commissioner to be Superintendant of Distributions and Payments.
The Third Commissioner to be Treasurer and Accountant.
Office Rent
200
0
0
One Deputy Treasurer and Accountant
600
0
0
One Book-keeper
350
0
0
Two Clerks for making Payments One at
240
0
0
One at
220
0
0
Two Clerks for checking or making entries of payments in Day Books One at
180
0
0
One at
160
0
0
One Clerk for conducting the correspondence under the deputy treasurer
200
0
0
Two Clerks for assisting in the correspondence, and for general services, One at
100
0
0
One at
80
0
0
Doorkeeper, and Messenger, 60l. each
120
0
0
2,250
0
0
Contingencies
200
0
0
Coals and Candles
60
0
0
£. 5,110
0
0
943
ESTABLISHMENT AT THE PORTS.
An Agent or Correspondent
An Agent or Portsmouth
500
0
0
An Agent or Plymouth
400
0
0
An Agent or Sheerness
400
0
0
One Clerk to each, at 150l. per annum
450
0
0
1,750
0
0
Total Expence
£.6,860
0
0
37. That the Expences of the Establishment of the Prize Office be defrayed by one per cent. of the General Commission of Prize Agency, in cases where the agents make the Distribution;—By 2½ per cent. of the commission, where the agents do not make Distribution, and where no appeals are entered;—By 2 per cent. of the commission, in Cases of Appeal;—By 1 per cent. of the money, and the interest thereon, vested in the Funds in appealed Cases, and which, shall ultimately be decreed to the Captors;—By the Charges made for Distribution, as at present, where the Prize Office shall make Distribution; and, by the Fractional Pence.
38. That a separate and distinct Account should be kept by the treasurer of the proportion of the Agency Commission received or retained, of the 1 per cent. arising from the vesting of the proceeds of Prizes in the Funds in appealed Cases; of the Charges made for Distribution; and of the Fractional Pence, which shall be carried to the account of the Office on making Distribution; and if after defraying the necessary Expences of the Establishment, and repaying to government the money that must necessarily be advanced in the first instance, with the interest thereon, the fund should appear to be more than adequate to the annual expence, the commissioners should cause the surplus (beyond what may be wanted for the current service of the office) to be vested half yearly in the Funds; and whenever his Majesty in council shall deem the Establishment of a General Prize Office no longer necessary, after rewarding the individuals belonging to it, in proportion to their fidelity and assiduity, that the accumulation, if any, be applied to the support of Greenwich Hospital.
39. That the observance of the several duties to be performed by the Agents with regard to the Prize Office, according to these Regulations, be enforced by such penalties as shall be found expedient; or that jurisdiction be given to the Courts of Admiralty to enforce the same.
These are the general outlines for the Establishment of the proposed Prize Office.
944
945
946
CHA. M. POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HY. NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
WM. MACKWORTH PRAED, (L. S.)
Office of Naval Enquiry, No. 24, Great George-street, 16th July, 1803.
FIFTH REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
Ordered to be printed 10th Aug.
SIXPENNY OFFICE.
The Fifth Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the 43d Year of
947
THE original and principal duty of this department is to collect a considerable part of the revenue of Greenwich Hospital, arising from a Deduction of Sixpence per month from the wages of seamen employed in the merchant's service; to which has been added, the collection of one moiety of the wages of men deserting from ships in the African trade, and other forfeitures and penalties; and also the receipt of the wages of men dying in the West India trade.—Having pursued our Enquiries into the various topics above enumerated, in the order in which the several duties have been successively imposed on the office, we proceed, in the same manner, to relate the result, and offer such observations as have occurred in the course of our investigation; and to propose such alterations as may tend to encrease the revenue of Greenwich Hospital, and promote the interests of indigent individuals.—The deduction of 6d. per month from the wages of seamen in the merchant service was first established by an act, passed in the 7th and 8th of the reign of his Majesty King William III. for the better support of Greenwich Hospital.—In the following year it was further enacted, for the better levying and collecting the said duty, That all masters or commanders of merchant vessels should be examined, upon oath, as to the number, rates, salaries, wages, and times of service, of all and every person or persons belonging to or serving in such vessels.—In the 10th year of the reign of her Majesty Queen Anne, the right hon. the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty were empowered, by an act of the legislature, to appoint a receiver or receivers, for the better collection of the said duty; such receiver or receivers to have power to depute the officers of the customs, or such other persons as they shall think fit, to collect the duty at the Out-ports of Great
948
949
950
951
952
953
Year.
Amount.
1790
£.
9
6½
1791
12,852
14
5½
1792
12,740
0
9¾
1793
12,263
4
11¼
1794
12,027
16
6¼
1795
12,190
17
3½
1796
13,451
16
0
1797
11,662
5
2¼
1798
12,787
4
0¼
1799
13,286
15
8¾
1800
13,309
1
6¾
1801
14,500
5
4½
1802
20,225
7
1
We caused to be laid before us an Account, rendered annually by the Sixpenny Office to the Admiralty, of the Number of Seamen employed in the Merchants Service, who had paid the Sixpenny duty between the years 1790 and 1802; but upon examination of it, we found it unsatisfactory from two causes: first, the numbers stated being ascertained by reducing the gross amount of the duty received into shillings, and dividing them by 6, the proportion that would be paid by one man, if constantly employed during the year, it merely gives a number which would, if so employed, pay to that amount; and, secondly, because we discovered that it had been the practice to include in the gross amount of the Sixpenny duty, the moiely of run mens wages in the African trade, and other forfeitures and penalties collected at the out-ports.—We therefore subjoin a Copy of the Account; and in an additional column, have given the number of Seamen that ought to have been returned, according to the mode of calculation above described.
Year.
No. returned to the Admiralty, as having been employed in the Merchants Service
No. that ought to have been returned.
1790
54,864
54,808
1791
53,511
52,446
1792
53,515
52,507
1793
51,868
50,689
1794
51,014
49,631
1795
51,062
49,875
1796
55,166
53,791
1797
48,848
47,669
1798
54,570
52,365
1799
61,132
54,955
1800
62,239
54,505
1801
66,841
58,866
1802
84,149
77,918
954
"An account of the number of ships, with their tonnage, and number of men and boys usually employed in navigating the same, that have been registered at and belong to the several ports of Great Britain, and appear, by the books of the register general of shipping, to have been in existence on the 30th of Sept. in the years 1799, 1800, and 1801, distinguishing each year;" with an abstract of the same, including the number of ships and vessels belonging to the several ports in the British dominions: also, "an account of the number of men and boys, which appear by the reports of the masters to have been employed in the merchants service in Great Britain on board British ships entered inwards and outwards from and to foreign parts, during the last 10 years; distinguishing England from Scotland."
We likewise examined Mr. Dalley, for the purpose of ascertaining whether any account was kept by his, or any other department, of the number of seamen actually employed in the merchants service; but although Mr. Dalley took considerable pains in making a calculation of the number so employed in vessels belonging to England and Scotland in the year 1801, yet the basis on which it was formed is much too uncertain to induce us to offer an opinion on the propriety of the collection of the Sixpenny duty in that year; and he himself is of opinion with us, that there is no mode of ascertaining the number of seamen actually employed, by which the receipt of Greenwich Hospital duty can be checqued; but it must be observed, that
955
956
957
958
959
We shall, lastly, proceed to speak of the Receipt of the Wages of Men dying on board of Ships in the West India trade, directed to be paid to the receiver of the Sixpenny Duty by an act of the 37th of his present Majesty, intituled, "An Act for preventing the Desertion of Seamen from British Merchant Ships trading to his Majesty's colonies and plantations in the West Indies," and by which a duty has been imposed on the Sixpenny Office totally foreign to its original institution; namely, that of the receipt of the wages of all seamen dying on the voyage from any port of Great Britain to and from any of the colonies or plantations in the West Indies, for the use of their executors or administrators; but if not claimed by them within 3 years, are forfeited, and directed to be paid to the use of the merchant seamens Hospitals, or, where none, to the magistrates of the county, to be by them distributed among the old and disabled seamen of the port to which the ship may belong.—The act imposing this duty on the Sixpenny Office having made no provision for defraying the expences of the collection, a correspondence took place between the commissioners of the Sixpenny Office and the Lords of the Admiraly on the subject, by whom they were authorized to make the same allowance to the Deputy Receivers at the out-ports for the collection of this money, as for the Sixpenny Duty, to be defrayed out of the Greenwich Hospital revenue.—The commissioners of the Sixpenny Office, very soon after the passing of the act in 1797, reduced the rate of commission to 5 per cent. at the ports of Liverpool and Bristol, owing to the great amount of their receipts; but at the other ports it continues at 12½ per cent. except at the port of London, where no commission is charged.—The commission on the
960
At the expiration of 3 years, when the unclaimed wages become forfeited, the receiver of the Sixpenny Duty has, previous to making distribution to the Merchant Seamens Hospitals, deducted the sum advanced out of the Greenwich Hospital revenue for defraying the expence of the collection of the year for which the distribution is to be made; and although he has had no authority whatever for so doing, yet we cannot disapprove of the measure, as there was no other mode of repaying the monies advanced; and, as we conceive, it never could have been the intention of the legislature, that Greenwich Hospital should have been at the expence of collecting the revenue of the Merchant Seamens Hospitals.—The sums which have been deducted from the Sixpenny Duty, on account of the commission on Dead Mens wages to the 31st Doc. 1802, have amounted to 1,988l. 0s. 9d. of which 551l. 0s. 9d. has been repaid in the manner before stated, leaving a balance of 1,437l. due to Greenwich Hospital, being the amount of 3 years commission, which the Hospital must always be in advance, according to the system that has been adopted.—There can be no sufficient reason why Greenwich Hospital should advance money, or be at any ex-pence in collecting the wages of men dying in the West India trade, as it derives no advantage from it whatever; we therefore recommend that the receiver of the Sixpenny Duty be authorized and directed to deduct the sums that have been advanced from the first monies that become payable to the merchant seamens Hospitals; and, after Greenwich Hospital shall be repaid, that the commission, and other necessary expences, on the receipt of Dead Mens wages in the preceding year, be deducted out of the monies payable in the beginning of the year ensuing to the merchant seamens Hospitals.—We also recommend that the receiver of the Sixpenny Duty be authorized to deduct a commission of 2½ per cent. upon the receipt of Dead Mens wages in the port of London, which will amount to about 100l. a year, such commission to be paid to Greenwich Hospital, to indemnify it for the expence of a clerk, the greatest part of whose time must necessarily be occupied in transacting this business.—No notice whatever has been taken in the accounts furnished by the receiver of the
961
The sum of 109l. 17s. 10d. has been collected, and remains in the hands of the representative of the late receiver of the Sixpenny Duty, on account of the wages of men dying on board ships in the West India trade, belonging to ports in America and the West Indies: as the act directs that the wages which shall be unclaimed at the end of 3 years shall be paid to the merchant seamens Hospitals of the port where the ship belongs, or, where none, to the magistrates of the county, to be distributed amongst the old and disabled seamen of the port, it does not appear to us to have been the intention of the legislature, that such money should have been collected; but, if it should remain unclaimed, we think it ought to be appropriated to repay Greenwich Hospital the monies that have been advanced on account of the commission on Dead Mens wages.—The act directs, that the accounts of the wages of men dying during the voyage shall be delivered by the masters, upon oath, within 10 days from the ship's arrival, to the collector or comptroller of the Customs, and that the amount shall be paid within 3 months to the receiver of the Sixpenny Duty, who has no authority to require a second affidavit from the master.—We are therefore of opinion, that the collector or comptroller's clerk in the port of London should transmit, twice a week, to the Sixpenny Office, a report of ships entered inwards from the West Indies, containing an account of the sums sworn to by the several masters, as the amount of the wages of men who have died during the voyage, for which the Sixpenny Office should make the clerk an adequate compensation.—And as the time for paying over the amount of Dead Mens wages to the receiver of the Sixpenny Duty appears to
962
£.
s.
d.
On Account of the Sixpenny Duty, and the Moiety of the Wages of Men deserting from ships in the African trade
5,961
13
9
On Account of the Wages of Men dying in the West India trade
7,751
3
2½
£
13,712
16
11½
963
On the 28th of April, the Receipt of the Port of London for the months of January and February.
On the 28th of May, the Receipt of the Port of London for the month of March, and the Receipts from the Out-ports for Lady-day Quarter.
On the 28th of July, the Receipt for the Port of London, for the months of April and May.
On the 28th of Aug. the Receipt of the Port of London for the month of June, and the Receipt from the Out-ports for Midsummer Quarter.
964
On the 28th of Oct. the Receipt for the Port of London for July and August.
On the 28th of Nov. the Receipt of the Port of London for the month of Sept. and the Receipts from the Out-ports for Michaelmas Quarter.
On the 28th of Jan. of the following year, the Receipt of the Port of London for the months of Oct. and Nov.
On the 28th of March, the Receipt of the Port of London for the month of Dec. and the Receipts from the Out-ports for Christmas Quarter; the Receipts from Guernsey, Jersey, and the Forts abroad for the year; and the deposits and forfeitures received at the Port of London within the year.
And on the 28th of March in each year, the Receiver delivers an Annual Account of his Receipts and Disbursements, with Vouchers for the latter, to the Directors of Greenwich Hospital; but the only checque upon his receipts is a certificate given on the account, by the accountant and comptroller, that he has duly charged himself with all sums received on account of the Hospital.—In this Account the gross produce of the Hospital revenue is not stated, with the several charges of collection; but simply a net sum, as the amount of the Sixpenny Duty, is placed against the names of the several Ports in England, with the amounts of the collection in Scotland and Ireland, without any notice of Run Mens wages, or the commission on Dead Mens wages; and, in order to magnify the Receipts in the Port of London, it has been the practice since the year 1766, to deduct the amount of the salaries and incidental charges of the Sixpenny Office from the monies collected at the out-ports, without stating in the Account that it was so deducted.—By the mode of payment to Greenwich Hospital before stated, there is always left in the hands of the receiver and his deputies the amount of two months collection; but the balance of the receiver, at the time of making four of his payments, is suffered to accumulate to the amount of 4 months collection, and in the others to 3. As we see noreason why the Receiver should make his payments under specific heads, we recommend that he do in future pay over to the Treasurer of Greenwich Hospital, on the first day of every month, the amount of money in his hands on account; and that he do make up his Annual Accounts, as at present, to the 31st of Dec. and pay over the remaining balance, if any, on the 28th of March in each year.—From what is before stated, it will have been observed, that the
965
Present Establishment.
Three Commissioners—one at 300l. one at 200l. and one at 100l.
600
0
0
First Clerk to Receiver
82
10
0
Second Clerk to Receiver
62
10
0
Accountant's Clerk
72
10
0
Comptroller's Clerk
62
10
0
£.
0
0
By the salaries we have proposed, an increase of expence to Greenwich Hospital will appear to be incurred of 470l. a year; but we apprehend, that the additional revenue which the Hospital will derive from a vigilant superintendence of its receipt, if proper persons be appointed, will more than compensate for this expence; and besides, the reduction of the commission of the Deputy Receiver at Liverpool, say to five per cent, on the Receipt of the Sixpenny Duty, and on Run Mens wages, will produce a saving of at least 300l. a year; the Hospital will likewise be a gainer of 100l. a year by the commission of 2½ per cent. proposed to be charged on the Receipt of Dead Mens wages at the Port of London; and, by pay-
966
Proposed Establishment.
Receiver
450
0
0
Comptroller
400
0
0
First Clerk to Receiver
250
0
0
Second Clerk to Receiver
100
0
0
Clerk to the Comptroller
150
0
0
£.
0
0
The other persons on the Establishment of the Office to be paid as at present.
ing up the monies collected monthly, we conceive that Greenwich Hospital will derive an interest therefrom, more than equal to the remainder of the expence.—The Receiver, in addition to his salary, will have the advantage of a house, and must necessarily have a considerable sum of money in his hands, arising from the receipt of the wages of men dying in the West India trade.—As we have proposed a reduction in the Establishment of the Office, it might be expected we should recommend that the salaries of the persons removed should be continued to them during life; but as such compensation is only justifiable on the ground of long arid faithful services, we do not feel ourselves, in the present case, warranted in making such,
967
CHAS. M. POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
SIXTH REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
Ordered to be printed
d May
PLYMOUTH YARD.
WOOLWICH YARD.
The Sixth Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the 43rd Year of tie Reign of His present Majesty, intituled, "An Act for appointing Commissioners to enquire and examine into any Irregularities, Frauds, or Abuses, which are or have been practised by Persons employed in the several Naval Departments therein mentioned, and in the Business of Prize Agency, and to report such Observations as shall occur to them for preventing such Irregularities, Frauds, and Abuses, and for the better conducting and managing the Business of the said Departments, and of Prize Agency, in future."
PLYMOUTH YARD.
THE Naval Arsenal at Plymouth Dock was first established in the year 1691; and it appears by the Records, that, previous to that time, the master shipwrights and the artificers were borne on board one of his Majesty's Ships fitted for their accommodation.—The affairs of the Dock Yard are conducted under the general superintendence of a Commissioner, chosen from the captains in his Majesty's Navy: he has authority over all persons employed in the Yard, but he has no power to reward, promote, or even to cause a man to be entered into the service; and from this circumstance, the Commissioner, although the principal, appears to have less influence over the
968
A MASTER SHIPWRIGHT,
TWO MASTERS ATTENDANT,
A CLERK of the CHECQUE,
A STOREKEEPER,
A CLERK of the SURVEY,
A CLERK of the ROPE YARD.
The duties of the Master Shipwright are multifarious and important; he has the direction and superintendence of nearly the whole operative business of the Dock Yard; in the execution of which he is assisted by four subordinate professional officers, termed "Assistants to the Master Shipwright;" one of whom is particularly entrusted with the management and conversion of timber, and is stiled "Timber Master;" of which office we shall have occasion to speak more at large in a subsequent Report.—It is likewise the peculiar duty of the Master Shipwright to inspect the quality of all stores received from contractors, which are used in his department, and to attest their fitness for the service; to survey and value all vessels hired or purchased into his Majesty's Navy; to keep an Account, and certify to the Navy Board, the Quantity of all Works performed by contract in the Dock Yard; and to keep an Account of the Earnings of the respective artificers under his superintendence, and to certify the Amount from time to time to the Clerk of the Checque.
The duty of the Masters Attendant is to?
969
The duty of the Clerk of the Checque is to muster the several persons belonging to the Yard, upon their coming to or quitting work; to keep an Account of their Wages; to make out, quarterly, the Pay Books of the Yard and Ordinary; to muster the companies of his Majesty's ships in Commission, and the persons employed on board the ships in Ordinary, and to check the absentees of their provisions; to muster at certain periods the Marines at head quarters; to view, in conjunction with the other officers, the quality of all stores received, and to make out certificates of the quantities, when required by the contractors, in order to their obtaining payment of the Navy Board; to attend in film with the Storekeeper and Clerk of the Survey, the receipt of all Stores, and the delivery of lots of old stores to the purchasers; he likewise pays bounty to volunteer seamen, and the contingencies of the Yard: Several other payments have been imposed on this officer, by recent acts of parliament, relating to Seamen's wages, which are totally unconnected with his situation in the Dock Yard, and will become the subject of our future observation.
The Storekeeper has charge of, and is accountable for all stores received into the Dock Yard; it is likewise his duty, in rotation with the Clerk of the Checque and Clerk of the Survey, to attend the survey and receipt of all stores from contractors, and the delivery of lots of old stores to the purchasers; and to check the certificates made out by the Clerk of the Checque, for stores received upon contract.
The duty of the Clerk of the Survey is, in conjunction with the master shipwright and master attendant, to direct the issues of all stores to the Warrant Officers of Ships, and for the Use of the Yard, and to keep a charge against the persons to whom they are
970
The duty of the Clerk of the Rope Yard combines the offices of the Clerk of the Checque and Storekeeper; he musters the people in that department, upon their coming to and quitting work; and is cliarged with the hemp, tar, and other articles, used in ropemaking, of the expenditure of which he keeps an account.
From a consideration of the various and important duties entrusted to the officers in his Majesty's Yards, it would be expected that upon their appointment they should be famished with full and sufficient Instructions for the regulation of their conduct; but upon enquiry of the officers of his Majesty's Yard at Plymouth, we find that the Instructions under which they act are of very ancient date (prior to the year 1700); that they have not been revived since their establishment, and have in great part been abrogated by orders issued by the Navy Board from time to time, adapted to the various circumstances of the service as they have arisen. These occasional Orders or Instructions have accumulated to a great extent, superseding each other as the opinions or those entrusted with the direction of the civil department of the Navy have varied; and as no abstract of them, under the particular heads of service to which they relate, has been kept at Plymouth Yard, it is only by a reference to the documents themselves, voluminous and often contradictory, that an officer upon his appointment can (and that with much industry and application) gain a knowledge of the duties of his station.—It will appear by the evidence of the Clerk of the Checque, that the Instructions, however insufficient for the regulation of hit conduct, have not even been given to him, either at the time of, or subsequent to his appointment; nor were they delivered to him with the other official documents by his predecessor, on his entering upon office.—We understand that the Navy Board, in the year 1785, had it in contemplation to make a general Collection and Digest of their Standing Orders or Regulations; and that an Abstract of the dates of them up to the 31st of Dec. 1784, arranged under different
971
In May, 1801, some Regulations were established, by Order of his Majesty in Council, for the better government of the Dock Yards; grounded on the Report made in 1783, by the commissioners appointed by an act of parliament, passed in the 25th of his present Majesty's reign, to enquire into the Fees and Emoluments of the Public Offices.—The principal objects of these Regulations were, the Establishment of a System for the better Management and Conversion of Timber; the Abolition of the Fees, Perquisites, and Emoluments, formerly received by the Officers and Clerks; and of the long-established privilege enjoyed
972
Description of Workmen.
Rate per Day.
To Shipwrights
Sixpence.
To Apprentices of Shipwrights, during the first 4 years of their Apprenticeship
Four Pence.
To Apprentices of Shipwrights, for the last 3 years of their Apprenticeship
Sixpence.
To Caulkers, Joiners, House Carpenters, and Sawyers
Four Pence.
To the Apprentices of Caulkers, Joiners, and House Carpenters, during the first 4 years of their Apprenticeship
Two Pence.
To the Apprentices of Caulkers, Joiners, and House Carpenters, during the last 3 years of their Apprenticeship
Four Pence.
To Scavelmen and Labourers
Three Pence.
AS the Business of a Dock Yard is of a complicated, nature, and as we conceive the detail will be better understood by branching it into as many heads as the subject will admit, we shall therefore pursue that Course in our Reports; and shall commence with,
The Mode of employing and paying the several Classes of Artificers and Labourers.
The number of Artificers and Labourers, borne on the books of his Majesty's Dock and Rope Yards at Plymouth on the 6th of Sept. 1803, was 2496. The annual Amount of the Wages paid to the Workmen, and for the Hire of the Teams employed, in the Years 1758, 1780, and from 1793 to 1802, has been as follows:—
Year.
Amount of Workmens' Wages.
£.
s.
d.
1758
73,904
8
0
1780
109,77l
8
0
1793
135,592
15
5
973
Year.
Amount of Workmens' Wages.
1794
143,079
19
8
1795
144,511
8
9
1796
152,462
18
5
1797
176,974
13
11
1798
167,369
19
0
1799
189,003
10
11
1800
200,050
9
1
1801
206,064
8
3
1802
132,205
16
6
The principal Classes of Artificers employed in the Yard are, Shipwrights, Caulkers, Joiners, House Carpenters, Smiths, Bricklayers and Masons, Sail-makers, Riggers, and Ropemakers.—The whole of the workmen, except the 3 latter classes, are employed under the direction and superintendence of the Master Shipwright; the sailmakers and riggers are under the Masters Attendant; and the rope-makers are considered as a separate establishment, under the direction of officers specifically appointed for the purpose.—The vacancies for artificers and labourers are filled up by the nomination of the officers having the direction of them, subject to the approbation of the commissioner; they are examined by the surgeon of the Yard previous to their entry, to ascertain that they have no bodily infirmities; and each artificer is tried as to his professional skill and ability, by the foreman of the shipwrights or master workmen.—The common hours of labour in this Yard have been regulated according to the different seasons of the year: viz. from the 2d of Dec. to the 1st of Feb. they are from 7 in the morning till dusk in the evening: from the 2d of Feb. to the 1st of March, from ½ past 6 in the morning to six in the evening, if the day-light will permit: from the 2d of March to the 1st of Oct. from 6 in the morning to 6 in the evening: from the 2d of Oct. to the 1st of Dec. from ¼ past 6 in the morning to 6 in the evening, or as long as the day-light will permit.—The workmen have likewise a stipulated time for dinner, which varies also according to the seasons of the year; being two hours in summer, one hour and a half in spring and autumn, and one hour in winter.—The Artificers and Labourers are mustered by the Clerk of the Checque, or some of his clerks, in general by the first and third; the workmen being divided, and borne upon separate books, in order that they may be called at the same time in different parts of the Yard, to save time in mustering.—When the workmen are allowed to leave the Yard to dine, they
974
975
976
977
The Amount of the Wages of the Workmen employed in the Dock Yards in the
978
Year.
Amount of Wages.
1758
£.
1780
467,957
1793
613,266
1794
635,012
1795
664,761
1796
709,331
1797
750,234
1798
754,923
1799
801,067
1800
846,684
1801
840,277
1802
581,620
When the Amount of the Wages of the Workmen in the Dock Yards, and the great increase which has taken place of late years are considered, it is scarcely to be credited that the Navy Board should have suffered sums of such magnitude to have been disbursed upon the faith of the signatures of the Clerks of the Checque in the several Yards, without the Pay Books undergoing any check or examination whatever; and this conduct is in direct opposition to the general practice of the Navy Office in other respects, as the Pay Books of the smallest vessel in His Majesty's Service arc examined in three distinct Departments previous to payment being made upon them.—From the very loose manner in which the payments of the wages to the workmen in the Dock Yards have been conducted, this subject has not come before the Board in the common course of business; and it appears, by the Examination of the Comptroller of the Navy, that, during the whole of the late war, it was not the object of particular investigation. Indeed, so little attention seems to have been paid to this subject, that three of the Members of the Navy Board out of the four whom we examined, were very uncertain whether the Pay Books of the Yard were checked at the Navy Office or not, previous to the payment.—It has been before observed, that there are three assistants to the master shipwright in the general execution of his duty; there are likewise inferior officers of the shipwrights and caulkers, which branches are the most important in a Dock Yard, and are considered to be more immediately within the province of the master shipwright.—Over each of the other classes, though under the general superintendence of the master shipwright, a master workman is appointed, who conducts and directs the execution of the work.—Under the
979
Shipwrights.
Mastmakers.
Top and Capstan House.
Boatbuilders.
Caulkers.
Joiners.
House Carpenters.
Masons, Bricklayers, and their Labourers.
PAY.
EXTRA.
ALLOWANCES.
Year
Average No. of Men and Servants borne.
Daily Rate.
For a Night, or 5 Hours additional Employment
For a Tide, or 1½ hour
When established.
Amount of Wages paid.
Average Wages paid per Day, for the 313 Working Days.
In lieu of Chips, per Day.
Lodging Money per Week.
s.
d.
s.
d.
d.
£.
s.
d.
d.
d.
1758
706
2
1
2
1
7½
Dec.1690
33,302
3
0
2½
1780
841
48,276
3
8
1790
766
38,288
3
2¼
1793
880
61,331
4
5¼
1797
957
77,524
5
2
1801
1,075
91,935
5
5½
6
1803
910
In Michaelmas Quarter
6
6
By the above Account it appears, that, although the shipwrights established rate of daily pay has not been altered for upwards of a century, their actual wages have been gradually on the increase since the year 1758, and that they have been more than doubled since that time. Our reason for requiring the Statement for the years 1758 and 1780, was to compare their wages in the most active years of former wars, with their wages during the last war.—We have been induced to state the average wages paid for the working days, in order to shew clearly the increase which has taken place of late years. On a cursory examination of the above and similar calculations, it may be conceived, as the workmen are frequently employed on Sundays, and the average we have formed being for the 313 days only that it exceeds the wages actually paid to them; but that certainly is not the case, and we consider it to be a low average, inasmuch as we believe the time lost by the workmen, by
980
Sawyers.
Smiths.
Locksmiths, Plumbers, Prazier, Blockmakers, and Cooper.
Painters.
Cabin Keepers.
Scavelmen and Labourers.
Teams.
Sailmakers.
Riggers, and their Labourers.
Ordinary.
Ropemakers.
Apprentices.
SHIPWRIGHTS.
The following Statement will shew the average number of shipwrights employed in Plymouth Yard, and the amount of their wages in the years stated, with their several allowances:
being absent from the Yard from sickness and other causes, to be fully equal to their employment on Sundays, and such average is further reduced by the number of persons entered and discharged in the course of the year, who have not received pay for the whole time.—That the wages actually paid to the shipwrights exceeded such average, is proved by their having been employed at the rate of 3 for 1 during most part of the year 1801, which made their wages 6s. 3d. a day, besides occasional extra, whereas the average stated is only 5s. 5½d—The shipwrights are formed into gangs or companies, over whom an inferior officer is placed, called a quarterman; each of which gangs, according to the directions of the Navy Board, should consist of twenty persons; the task, gangs are directed to consist of the quarter-man, 15 men, and 4 apprentices, who are termed Servants in the Dock Yards; but the number of men and apprentices in the other gangs depends upon the proportion which
981
982
983
984
985
Quantity of Work.
Number of Men proposed.
Time proposed for performing it.
Money proposed to be allowed for it.
Feet.
Upper deck, thick waterways to take out
340
28 Men and 8 Servants.
18 Days and 18 T.des.
£.
s.
d.
Upper deck, to let down and fasten
236
Upper deck, flat, 5½ inches thick, to take up
514
Upper deck, flat, 5½ inches to lay to take up
514
Spirketting, 5½ inches thick, to take off
482
Spirketting to trim and fasten
482
Forecastle and quarter deck, knees to take down
No.
Forecastle and quarter deck, bolts to drive out
120
Thickstuff between the Spirketting, and string to take off
Feet.
482
Shortstuff, to trim and fasten
482
Collar beam scansions and bulkheads to take down
The Navy Board, in return, by their Warrant of the 20th of Nov. 1788, directed the shipwrights to be employed on the Gibraltar, agreeably to the officers proposal, and that in future their propositions of jobs should be in the following form, which continued in use until the year 1802; and although it has not been transmitted to the Board till after the work has been performed, if has been continued to be called a proposition,
N. B. To insert the rate and value against each article.
Number, or Thickness.
Quantity.
Rate.
Value.
£.
s.
d.
Upper deck waterways to take out
Upper deck, to trim, let down, and fasten
Upper deck, flat 5 inches, to take up
Upper deck, flat 5 inches, to lay
Spirketting, 5½ inches thick, to take off
Spirketting, to trim and fasten
Forecastle and quarter deck knees, to drive out bolts and take down
Shortstuff between the spirketting, and string to take off
Shortstuff to trim and fasten
Collar beam stantions, and beakhead bulkhead, to take down
Total
£.
83
6
8
986
sequence not carried into effect until the year 1788.—It appears that the first ship repaired by job in Plymouth Yard, was the Gibraltar of 80 guns; on which occasion, the officers reported to the Navy Board the works necessary to be performed, previous to their being taken in hand; the number of men intended to be employed on the work; the time in which it ought to be performed; and the sum of money they judged proper to be allowed for it; of which the following is a copy:
"Plymouth Yard,
th Nov.
"In obedience to your directions of the "3d Dec. 1783, and 14th Feb. 1784, we "beg leave to propose the following job for "the shipwrights on the Gibraltar; and acquaint you, that we shall begin to employ "the men thereon next Monday morning, "of which we hope you will approve:"
when in fact it has been an account of the work done, and a proposition only as far as regarded the prices to be allowed.
"In obedience to your directions of the "3d Dec. 1783, and 14th Feb. 1784, we "pray leave to propose the following job "for the shipwrights, viz. 20 men and 8 servants on the Gibraltar, for eighteen days "and eighteen tides, to perform the following works:"
987
On the 11th of Jan. 1791, the Navy Board directed the officers of Plymouth Yard not to employ the artificees by job until further order; but on the 13th of the same month, they authorized the officers to employ the shipwrights by job in the summer months only, limiting their earnings to 1 day and 2 tides, or 3s. 4d.; during the rest of the year they were to be employed by day work, at the established rate of pay.—Although the Navy Board, by the latter Warrant, authorized the employment of the shipwrights by job, it by no means became general, even in the summer months, until the 8th of Jan. 1793, when the Navy Board issued a Warrant to the officers of Plymouth Yard (grounded on a proposal from them) to employ the shipwrights 2 for 1 by job, in the common working hours, including their dinner time, on the ships tilting out; and, on account of the pressure of business, dispensed with the propositions of the prices to be allowed, "trusting that the officers "would take care the service reaped an advantage equivalent thereto." The Navy Board, by this Warrant, which continued in force until Oct.1794, dispensed with the only document by which they could judge of the effect which the encouragement given to the men to exert themselves by the increase of wages might produce upon the quantum of work performed; and threw the whole responsibility of the public receiving an advantage, adequate to the expense incurred, upon the master shipwright. During this period, it is slated, that the work performed was taken account of, and that the men were allowed the extra wages, upon certificates given by the master shipwright to the Clerk of the Cheque, that their earnings had amounted to the rates of pay allowed.—As the Navy Board in all their orders respecting job work had limited the earnings of the shipwrights to a less sum in winter than summer, on account, we apprehend, of the difference in the length of the days, we are at a loss to understand upon what principle they varied from it, and authorized the officers, in Jan. 1793, to employ them generally at the rate of 2 for 1. If job work, as it has been stated to us, was intended to be an employment "bonâ fide" by the piece, the same rate of earnings should not have been fixed for winter and summer, as the same quantity of work could not be done in the former as in the latter season—On the 7th of Oct. 1794, the Navy Board, by Warrant, directed the mode in which the artificers and labourers
988
989
990
991
992
993
994
995
work more than
"the common hours by the Piece or Job,
996
997
998
999
Ships Names.
Amount of Propositions sent to Navy Board.
Amount of Propositions as approved by the Navy Board.
Amount of Works lined on in Job Book, & omitted in the Propositions.
Amount of the Value of the Works actually performed.
Amount of Wages paid to Shipwrights actually employed on the Job.
Excess of the Wages paid beyond the Value of Work, actually performed.
£.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
£.
£.
Princess Royal
1,800
1,790
1,790
2,109
319
San Josef
8,325
8,267
8,267
9,809
1,541
Orion
1,550
1,548
1
16
7
1,550
1,914
364
Hercule
4,724
4,675
3
18
3
4,679
5,795
1,115
Donegal
4,799
4,719
4,719
6,028
1,309
Spartiate
1,399
1,892
1,892
2,626
734
Canopus
2,003
1,992
1,992
2,280
238
Totals
£.
25,034
24,885
5
14
10
24,891
30,514
5,623
Thus, on the Repairs of seven ships only, no less a sum than 5,623l. 0s. 9d. appears to have been overpaid to the Shipwrights alone, being at the rate of 221. 11s. 9d. per cent. above the value of the work, at the prices approved by the Navy Board; and there is too much reason to apprehend from this comparison, that during the time the shipwrights were employed extra beyond the common working hours, from the 28th Nov. 1798 to the 12th Oct. 1801, the greater part of the sum paid to them on that account, which, according to the best calculation we can make, has amounted to 68,331l. has, from the misconduct of the officers of the Yard, and the want of attention in the controuling power, been paid to the injury of the public; and it must seem extraordinary, that in no instance the Navy Board should have compared the value of the work with the wages actually paid to the men for performing it.—Before the officers decided so important a question, as, whether the artificers during the extra hours which the Board authorized their being employed, should ab-
1000
solutely earn the extra wages allowed to them, or that it should be given to them without any regard to the work they might perform, and in such a way as to render it impossible to keep any check against their earnings in the common day hours, when they were supposed to be employed and paid by the piece, it was surely their duty to have applied for the further directions of the Board; and indeed it is impossible to conceive how (his circumstance could, for so considerable a length of time, have escaped the detection of the Navy Board.—Propositions or Accounts of all (he work performed, were regularly transmitted, in which it was constantly reported, that the Jobs were for double days only, and the amount of the Propositions corresponded with the amount of the wages of the number of men stated, calculated at the rate of double days: although the orders given by the Board for employing the men extra might have escaped their recollection, yet the subject must have been constantly brought before them by the progress of the works in hand, trans-
1001
1002
1003
No.
Rate.
Amnt.
£.
s.
£.
Stages to make
2
0
10
1
Stages to make to the Channels
6
10
0
60
Stages to make to the Head
8
Stages to make
6
10
0
60
Stages to make
2
10
0
20
Total
£.
149
On examining the Shipwright Officers as to the propriety of the charges for those works, they all stated them to be enormous; and the only officer belonging to the Yard, whose signature was affixed to that Proposition, has given it as his opinion, that for the second and fifth articles, taking it for granted the stages were fore and aft, that is, the whole length of the ship, they should each have been stated two stages, making together 4, instead of 8, at 2l. 7s. 6d. each; in the whole 9l. 10s. instead of 80l. For the fourth article, two stages should have been charged at 4l. each, in the whole 8l. instead of 60l. and in respect to the others, not being able to recollect the purposes for which they were erected, he could not form any opinion.—In excuse for having signed this Preposition, so contrary to his ideas of propriety, he stated, that the prices proposed to be allowed for the different stages had been so frequently approved by the Board, as to have been considered as established; that he did not examine the Proposition in question previous to his signing it; and that such papers are seldom tendered to the Assistants for their signatures, until about the time of their being forwarded to the Navy Board.—The sum of 5,623l. 0s. 9d. before stated to have been over-paid, to the Shipwrights in the Repairs of his Majesty's ships Princess Royal, San Josef, Orion, Hercule, Donegal, Spar-
1004
Having now stated the principal circumstances which have come to our knowledge respecting the employment of the Shipwrights during the late war, we proceed to consider such as have occurred since that time.—At the conclusion of the war, the Navy Board, by warrant, dated the 10th of Oct. 1801, directed that the artificers should be employed double days, as the daylight would not allow of their working the extra they had been accustomed to do in the summer months.—On the 2d of Jan. 1802, a Scheme of Prices was first established by the Navy Board for various works performed by the Shipwrights by Job, after the system had been adopted 18 years, and acted upon generally for nearly ten; and the officers were authorized to allow the shipwrights for the particular works therein stated, the prices directed, without further authority from the Board; and to propose prices for such articles only as were not contained in the Schedule. The Navy Board, in their warrant, accompanying the Scheme, observe, that "they considered it to comprehend the "principal if not the whole of the articles "that are undertaken in the course of carrying on the Repairs of, or in fitting his "Majesty's ships;" but from the best information we have been able to collect, we have reason to believe that the Scheme is very imperfect, and does not contain one-tenth of the numerous articles of work which arise in the repairs of ships; and that the prices are very disproportionate, as, upon some articles the men can earn from 7 to 8s. a day, and upon others not more than 3s. 4d.—Upon the receipt of the Warrant and Scheme of Prices, documents were made out by the Master Shipwright to the clerk of the Checque, stating the particulars of the work performed by the men contained in the schedule, and the price for each, as fixed by the Navy Board; and for such as did not come within the schedule, prices were proposed to the Board as formerly. The document to the clerk of the checque, which is called a "Job Note," was not sent to his office until the Navy Board had signified, their approval, or made the corrections they judged necessary in the part submitted to
1005
1006
1007
Value of the Work performed, according to the Propositions sent to the Navy Board.
1st Job.
Proposed 1st Aug. 1801, for 122 shipwrights and 33 servants, for 70 double days, with 6 labourers and I team of horses,
£.
2d. Job.
Proposed 10th Oct. 1801, for 180 shipwrights and 48 servants, for58 double days, with 6 labourers and I team of horses
2,598
0
11
Works performed, but not included in either of the Propositions sent to the Board
3
18
3
£.
17
11½
We were surprized to find that no steps had been taken by the Navy Board on the receipt of this Statement, notwithstanding the strong testimony it bore of an Abuse to a very great extent, and which, from the importance and magnitude of the case, certainly demanded serious investigation.—It appears by the evidence of the Surveyors of the Navy, that upon the first representation of the officers of Plymouth Yard, the circumstances appeared to them so extraordinary, that they could not attach any belief to the Statement; and the Junior Surveyor, notwithstanding the documents brought forward by the officers in support of their assertion, slates, that he still doubts the fact of the Artificers having been employed in the extra time upon the same Job as during the common working hours, and that the whole of the work was taken into the Job Account to make up the earnings of the men to two for one; and assigns as a reason for his disbelief, that Mr. Marshall, who was master shipwright, and Mr. Seppings and Mr. Bastard, the assistants at the time, had denied its having been the practice.—The Comptroller of the Navy states, that from the result of the enquiry which was set on foot on the first representation of the officers, the Navy Board were of opinion, that no such abuse as that stated by the officers had existed; and that notwithstanding the receipt of their letter of the 3d May 1803, with the Certificate of the quartermen, and the instance of the over-payment on the Hercule, to the amount of 1454l. 13s. 3d. the enquiry was no further pursued, from a reliance on what had been stated by the former officers, but particularly by Mr. Seppings, in his letter to the Board, a copy of which the Comp-
1008
Amount of the Wages paid to the Men.
1st Job. Was 8,517 men for 1 day, at 6S. 3d. per day, extra included
£.
11
3
2,272 servants for 1 day, at 4s. 6d. per day
511
4
0
3,172
15
3
2d. Was 8,142 men for 1 day, at 6s. 3d. per day, extra included
2,544
7
6
2,073 servants for 1 day, at 4s. 6d. per day
466
8
6
3,010
16
0
£.
11
3
troller desired might be attached to his evidence.—Mr. Seppings, in his letter, admits the impossibility of separating the work performed by Job from that done in the extra time; and states, that the artificers were in consequence employed by Job in the extra time, and the
whole amount of their earnings
1009
the whale of the work was included in the Job Account,
1010
1011
1012
1013
1014
Average Wages per Day.
Yard.
Time of Working.
By job.
By Task.
s.
d.
s.
d.
Deptford
Common Hours
5
0¾
—
Woolwich
Common Hours
5
6
—
Chatham
Common Hours
6
7½
—
Sheerness
Common Hours
4
2
—
Portsmouth
Common Hours including dinner time
5
2¼
6
3
Plymouth
Common Hours including dinner time
5
4
4
8½
By the above Statement, it appears, that the average wages of the Shipwrights employed by Job have differed very materially, although the time of working has been the same in all the Yards except Portsmouth and Plymouth, where, in addition to the common hours of labour, they have been employed during the time allowed for dinner; and although the Shipwrights of those Yards have been employed more time, yet it appears they have in the former been paid; 1s. 4¼d. and in the latter 1s. 3½9;d. a day less than those of Chatham Yard; and at Sheerness, although the hours of working have been the same as at Chatham, they have been paid 2s. 5éd. a day less. The difference in the earnings of the Shipwrights employed by task in Portsmouth and Plymouth Yards, where they have worked the same time, is equally extraordinary.—The great inequality in the amount of the wages of the
1015
1016
MASTMAKERS.
The persons employed as Mastmakers are shipwrights, with the same rates of pay and allowances as those working at the dock side: there are in general three companies or gangs, which are considered as belonging to the masthouse, each usually consisting of twenty persons, a quarterman, fourteen men, and five apprentices. These companies are selected annually by the master shipwright, previous to the general shoaling of the shipwrights, and are usually composed of old and infirm men, as the work in the masthouse is lighter than that at the dock side, and requires more skill than strength to perform it. When the persons stationed at the masthouse are found to be insufficient to
1017
1018
1019
TOP AND CAPSTAN HOUSE.
There is one company of shipwrights, consisting of a quarterman, and generally of 15 men, and 4 apprentices, selected annually by the master shipwright from amongst the old and infirm men, before the general shoaling of the shipwrights takes place, to be employed in making and repairing tops and capstans, in fitting pumps, and stocking anchors, and on other trifling services.—The Navy Board, by their warrant of the 27th of April 1795, established prices for making and repairing capstans, and for stocking anchors, and directed the officers to employ the workmen on such services by job, and to pay them agreeably to such prices; and on the 16th of May following, they established prices for making and repairing tops, and for sundry other trifling articles; and directed the officers to employ and pay the workmen accordingly.—The shipwrights employed in the top and capstan house have been paid the same as those working at the dock side; that is, at the rate of 2 for 1 for the common hours, and at the established rate for the extra time; and their wages do not appear to have been affected by the prices established by the Navy Board for task and job work until the 12th of March 1803, when the artificers were directed to
1020
BOATBUILDERS.
The Boatbuilders, like the mastmakers, and for the same reason, are selected by the master shipwright from amongst the old and infirm shipwrights, before the general annual shoaling of the shipwrights into companies; or gangs takes place; there are usually two or three companies so selected, each consisting of a quarterman, and generally of 14 men and 5 servants, that are considered as belonging to the boathouse; and when they are found to be insufficient to perform the work, the master shipwright directs such other companies to be employed in the boathouse as he may judge proper.—The shipwrights employed at the boathouse have the same established rates of pay and allowances as those working at the dock side; and they are in general employed the same e*tra.—.It appears, the shipwrights employed in the boathouse worked by the day until Nov. 1794, when the Navy Board, by their warrant of the 7th of that month, established certain prices per foot for building and completing launches, barges, and pinnaces by task, and directed the officers to employ the men accordingly.—And, on the 13th of March 1795, the Navy Board directed the officers to employ the shipwrights by job in the repairs of boats in the common working hours of the Yard, and to allow them the prices then established, being so much per foot for a large, middling, and small repair; the officers taking care to estimate the nature of the repairs, so that the workmen should be paid in proportion to their exertion, and that the public service should be thereby benefited. Upon the receipt of this warrant, or soon after it, the then master shipwright subdivided the prices, in order to pay the men more equitably, according to the quantum of repairs the boats might stand in need of; and the present master shipwright, some months after his appointment, wrote to the Navy Board, and submitted the prices so subdivided to their consideration, wishing, we conclude, to have their sanction for what appeared not to be directly authorized by the said warrant; but his letter was not thought to be of sufficient consequence to deserve an answer. We must here differ in opinion with the Navy Board, as their warrant established certain fixed prices, from which we have been told by one of the Surveyors of the Navy, the officers ought
1021
1022
1023
1024
1025
Year.
Value of Works performed.
Amount of Wages calculated at Two for One.
Amount of Wages for the Two Tides Extra.
Total Amount of Wages.
Excess of Wages paid above the Value of the Work performed.
£.
£.
£.
£.
£.
1799
7,072
7,075
2,122
9,198
2,125
1800
7,549
7,359
2,207
9,567
2,018
We do not apprehend the wages paid exceeded the value of the work performed in an equal degree in any other year, as in those we have stated, as the workmen were not employed so much extra; but it will be seen by reference to the monthly account of the value of the works performed, and of the amount of the wages of the men employed, calculated at the rate of 2 for 1, that the wages so calculated in many months, and in some years, exceeded the value of the work performed; and we can see no reason to doubt the accuracy of that account, as it was drawn out at the end of each month by the foreman, or persons acting under him, when the circumstances were fresh in the memory; and when the number of persons actually employed in the boathouse by job must have been known—It is now the practice, when a number of boats have had very trifling repairs, to charge the whole as a small repair upon 1; this is inconsistent with the Navy Board's Warrant, which appears to fix certain prices for a great, middling, and small repair, for each class of boat; and although the officers of most of the Yards have varied from those prices, according to their own discretion, yet we do not think such discretion is so clearly implied by the Warrant as it ought to have been. Where discretion is
1026
pears to us that me wages paid for wording beyond the usual hours must have been about 2,188l. 4s. 4d.; by which we conceive the wages actually paid the shipwrights employed by job in the boathouse in 1801, exceeded the value of the works performed by 2,102l. 11s. 9d. being about one-fourth of the wages paid.
The following statement will shew that there were similar excesses in 1799 and 1800, during which years the shipwrights were employed at the rate of 2 for 1 for working in the common hours, and 2 tides extra.
intended to be given to the officers of the Yards, we are of opinion, it should be clearly expressed.—We do not mean, under any circumstances, to palliate inattention or disobedience of the officers of the Yards to the orders which they receive, but we cannot but attribute much of the confusion and irregularity in the mode of employing and paying the men to the want of system in the Navy Board, and the negligent manner in which their warrants have been drawn up.—Since the 12th of March 1803, when the artificers were directed to be employed unlimited extra, and to be paid according to their actual earnings, it appears to have been the practice previous to making out the job notes, to calculate the amount of the wages of the shipwrights employed in the boat-house by job at the rate of 5s. 9d. or 5s. 10d. a day, and then to have reference to the job book, to see whether the amount of the prices allowed for the repairs of the boats completed and surveyed by the master shipwright was equal thereto, and if so, to make out the job notes accordingly; the job notes, we were told, have been so made out in order to prevent dissatisfaction amongst the workmen, from their earnings appearing to be greater in some months than in others; the motive may not be an improper one; but if the employment by
1027
1028
increased
decreased
1029
1030
CAULKERS.
The Caulkers present rate of daily pay, including allowances, is 2s. 5½d.; they are also allowed for working on Sundays, and for sleeping on board his Majesty's ships, an extra day's pay, so that when employed on Sundays, it is by no means unusual for them to receive 5 days pay, or 10s. 5d. for one day's work, and sometimes more, besides a ration of provisions, the same as is allowed to the seamen of the Fleet.—The Caulkers are classed, or shoaled annually into gangs or companies, the same as the shipwrights; but the mode of employing them differs from that of the other artificers. Instead of certain prices being fixed for the works to be done by them, certain portions of work are established, which they are to perform, to entitle them to the single day's pay, single day's pay and one tide, two tides; and, in caulking new ships bottoms, the portion of work is fixed for the double day; being less for the second day's pay than the first, in the proportion of 10 to 13. We endeavoured to learn from the comptroller and surveyors of the Navy, why less work should be performed for the second day's pay than the first, but without obtaining satisfactory information; being told, that it had proceeded from custom, and that it was conceived a man could not, after performing a hard day's work, do as much for the second and third day's pay as for the first; but we apprehend such reasoning will not at all apply, as it has been stated to us, that the Caulkers, when employed by Task, can perform as much work as will entitle them to three day's pay, or 6s. 3d. in less time than the common working hours of the Yard. The Navy Board's warrant of the 6th of May 1778, speaks of the Caulkers work having been very badly executed, particularly in Chatham Yard, and fixes the quantities of work to be performed in caulking ships bottoms for a single day's pay, single day and one tide, two tides, and for a double day's pay; but we can discover no general principle or rule by which the quantities of work directed to be performed have been calculated: for instance, the quantity of work in caulk-
1031
1032
1033
1034
1035
JOINERS.
Their present Rate of Daily Pay, including Allowances, is 2s. 4½d.—The Joiners were employed by the Day until the 2d of June 1774, when the Navy Board established a Scheme for employing them by task, to which several additions have been made by warrants dated the 22d March 1775, the 13th June 1785, and the 22d of Feb. 1786.—They were first employed by Job on the 12th Jan. 1793, and by the Navy Board's warrant of the 7th Oct. 1794, fixing the mode in which the different classes of workmen were to be employed, the Joiners were directed to be allowed the rate of double days when employed by Task or Job; and those not working by Task or Job, two tides day work.—Under the authority of that warrant, the Joiners were employed by Task and Job, at the rate of two for one, or 4s. a day, in the common working hours.—The warrant of the 7th Oct. 1794, directed that the officers should propose to the Navy Board, from time to time, such articles of Task and Job work as they might think it right to employ the workmen upon, agreeably to the standing orders they were under on that head.—From the nature of the naval service, it is impossible at the beginning of a month to foresee all the various occasional works which may arise in the course of it; it has consequently happened, that the actual employment of the Joiners has differed, in most cases, especially in war time, from the Propositions made to the Navy Board; this seems in some degree to have been foreseen by the Board, from their requiring at the end of each month an Account of the Jobs actually performed, with the earnings of the men; but it is stated, that this Account was required to be transmitted at so early a period after the expiration of the month, that it was impossible to state correctly either the works which had been performed in the month, or the wages which the men bad earned.—In the Propositions,
1036
HOUSE CARPENTERS.
The present rate of daily pay of the House Carpenters, including allowances, is 2s. 2½d. They were generally employed by the day until 1793, although it appears they have been occasionally employed by Task or Piece Work from the year 1765, whenever considerable works, with prices to be allowed for the same, could be proposed to the Navy Board; but it does not appear they were employed by Job until 12th Jan. 1793.—The Navy Board, by their warrant of the 7th Oct. 1794, respecting the mode of employing the different classes of artificers, directed that the House Carpenters should be employed at the rate of two for one by Task or Job, in the common working hours of the Yard; and that the officers should propose to them from time to time, such Task or Job work as they might think it right the men should be employed upon, together with the prices to be allowed for the same, either prior to taking the works in hand, or at the end of every month, for their approval, and orders thereon.—No prices were established for the works performed by the House Carpenters by Job; but the Propositions of the Jobs to the Navy Board, and
1037
1038
MASONS, BRICKLAYERS, AND BRICKLAYERS LABOURERS.
The Masons, as well as the Bricklayers and the Labourers attached to them, are under the direction of the Master Bricklayer.—The present rate of daily pay of the Masons is 2s. 6½d.; of the Bricklayers 1s. 11½d.; and of their Labourers 1s. 5d. including allowances.—The Masons and Bricklayers were among the first classes of workmen
1039
SAWYERS.
The employment of the Sawyers has differed very materially from every other class of workmen in his Majesty's Yards; until very lately, the greater part of them were not considered as belonging to the Yard, nor were they entitled to the superannuation and other indulgencies granted to the rest of the workmen: they worked under an agreement or contract, dated 22d April 1696, at a certain rate per 100 feet, and have from that circumstance been termed Contract or 100 feet Sawyers.—The contract or scheme
1040
SMITHS.
The Smiths are also allowed for working on Sundays, and for the night or extra day an additional day's pay. The Smith's night, or extra day formerly consisted of 8 hours additional employment; about 30 years ago it was reduced to 5, and in 1795 it was further reduced to 3, two hours less than the other artificers work for an extra day's pay: for ½ a day's extra, the Smiths work 2 hours; and for ¼ of a day, an hour and a quarter.—The Smiths are also allowed by the Navy Board's warrant of the 28th July 1800, when employed on common work, two quarts of table-beer each per day, and an equal quantity for every extra day or night they may work.—In addition to the above, when employed in making anchors from 10 to 40 cwt. and repairing those above 10 cwt. they are each allowed a quart of strong beer per day; and when making anchors above 40
1041
LOCKSMITHS, PLUMBERS, BRAZIER, BLOCKMAKERS, AND COOPER.
These persons are generally employed in the repairs of articles in their respective branches; they worked by the day until the 12th of Jan. 1793, when they were all employed by Job, at the rate of 2 for 1 in the common working hours of the Yard, including their dinner time, and so continued until the 7th Oct. 1794, since which time they have been sometimes employed by the day, and sometimes by job.—As the master shipwright cannot be acquainted with the quantity of work actually performed by these men, and as no persons take account of the work performed by them but themselves; and as it must, under any circumstances, be very difficult to estimate the value of their labour by job, employed as they generally are upon very trifling repairs, we can feel no hesitation in saying, it would be better to employ them by the day.
PAINTERS:
The Paint Work was formerly performed by contract; but in 1802, in consequence of gross neglect having been discovered in the mode of keeping the accounts, and making the payments to the contractor, whereby great opportunity for fraud was afforded, it was judged advisable that the materials should be provided by public contract, and that the work should be performed by men to be entered in the Yard for the purpose.—We are at a loss to account for the reasons which induced the Navy Board, in 1802, to employ the Painters by day-work at fixed rates of pay, instead of employing them by Task and Job, like the other workmen, as the members we have examined have stated to us, that they are not conscious of the fallacy
1042
CABIN-KEEPERS.
These persons are a description of petty storekeepers; they have charge of such of the tools used by the workmen in their respective branches as are found by the public; and are supplied in considerable quantities with the stores in daily request, and issue them in small quantities, as demanded by the respective quartermen and leading men.—They were formerly allowed the same extra as the classes of workmen to which they were attached, but it was directed at the lime of the last visitation of the Dock Yards, that their rate of extra should never exceed two tides. In the selection of persons for these situations a preference is given to men of good character, advanced in years, and such as may have received hurts in the service; yet, as a very considerable trust is reposed in them, and as abilities above the common class of workmen are requisite for keeping their accounts with regularity, we are of opinion that as they attend the same number of hours as lie workmen, their rate of wages should not be less than that of the class from which they may be taken.
SCAVELMEN AND LABOURERS.
The Scavelmen are selected from the Labourers, and are employed under the direction of the master shipwright, in cleaning and pumping the Docks, and on Other works immediately connected with the shipwrights.—The Labourers are employed under the superintendence of the boatswain of the Yard, in receiving and stowing away the stores, in supplying the artificers with materials, and in the other necessary services of the Yard.—It has been stated to us, that during the latter part of the late war there was a greater number of labourers employed in Plymouth Yard than were necessary to perform the services required; but as there
1043
HORSES.
The Horses employed in the Dock Yards have, we understand, been always provided by contract; the Teams are borne on the muster and pay books, and the contractors paid for their labour quarterly, one quarter under the other the same as the artificers.—The Labourers have been long employed in the receipt of stores and other works by Task, and in the warrant of 2d Sept. 1772, the Navy Board expressly state their intention not to employ them extra, or beyond the common working hours of the Yard in future; we therefore apprehend the natural construction of such clause was, that if the labourers performed their task in less time than the usual hours of working, the teams were then to work only the same hours as the labourers. In confirmation of the interpretation which we have given to the clause in question, it is expressly stated to us by Mr. R. Nelson, who held the contract for upwards of 3 years, that he apprehended he was not entitled to any thing beyond the single day's pay unless his teams were employed in extra time, either beyond the usual hours of working, or during the time allowed for dinner. As the extra received by Mr. Nelson was of small amount, he apprehended that it had arisen from the employment of his horses in extra time, and he was only undeceived in that opinion by the production of some of the vouchers on which extra had been set off to his teams in the common working hours, when employed with the labourers on Task work.—The teams are and have been employed occasional extra in the night, for the purpose of pumping out the Docks by an engine, for which they are paid according to the provisions of the contract, by certificates from
1044
SAILMAKERS.
The Sailmakers appear to have been employed by the day until the 17th of May 1764, when the Navy Board established a scheme for employing them by the Great or Task, in making new sails; and directed that they should sew 44 yards of seam with waxed twine, or 50 with dipped twine, for the single day's pay; twice that quantity for the double day's pay; and in a similar proportion for the intermediate parts of a day. Various other works are required to be performed in making sails, besides sewing the canvas together, the whole of which were directed to be paid for as seam sewed, and various rules were established for estimating the quantities of seam which were to be considered equal to such work. The warrant further directed that the men should be employed by Task on such repairs as would admit of it, and that no persons should work by the day but such as the officers should find to be absolutely necessary to employ in that manner, on account of the nature of the work not admitting, by any regulation, of its being performed by the Great or Task.
1045
1046
RIGGERS AND RIGGERS LABOURERS.
The daily rate of pay of the Riggers appears to have been established on the 1st of Jan. 1603–4, and that of their Labourers to have been allowed in Dec. 1690; they were then, and are at present paid when employed on Sundays, and for working beyond the usual hours of the Yard, for a night, or five hours additional employment, an extra day's pay; and for a tide, or one hour and a half additional employment, they are both paid 4d.—They are also allowed 3d. per day in lieu of the privilege of carrying chips out of die Yard, making the present rate of daily pay of the Riggers 1s. 9d. and of their Labourers 1s. 5d.—The Riggers and their Labourers had always been employed by the day, working such occasional extra as the service required, until the 26th Oct. 1801, although during the late war they had gene-
1047
1048
1049
THE ORDINARY.
The Ordinary are a class of persons distinct from the establishment of the Yard, and are so termed from their being usually employed on board his majesty's ships not in commission or actual service, but in a state of Ordinary; they perform the duties
1050
1051
1052
ROPEMAKERS.
We have in a preceding part of this Report stated, that the Ropemakers are a distinct and separate branch; they are employed under the management and direction of 2 officers, the clerk of the rope yard, and the master ropemaker; the former is the check upon the men's attendance and wages, and the latter allots the work, and superintends the performance of it.—All the persons belonging to the rope yard, as well Ropemakers as others, are employed by task or piece work, according to schemes or tables which were adopted on the first establishment of the rope yard in the year 1697, and which have not been revised or altered since that period. The schemes direct the number of men that shall be employed on each article, and the quantity or number of articles to be manufactured by them for a single day's pay.—The scheme
1053
1054
1055
1056
APPRENTICES.
Most of the officers in the professional branches were formerly allowed Apprentices, whose pay and extra they received; and apprentices were also given as a reward for merit and industry to the most deserving of the artificers. The Apprentices to the officers in the shipwright line were in general brought up in the mould loft, to give them a knowledge of the art of shipbuilding, and to qualify them for officers. Their rates of pay for each year of their apprenticeship were fixed, and they were allowed extra in proportion to the workmen with whom they were employed.—It has been before stated, that in consequence of great abuses having taken place in the allowance of extra to the officers Apprentices, it was judged expedient in 1801 to abolish that privilege; and as the officers derived the most considerable part of the emoluments of their situations from the pay of their Apprentices, their salaries were in consequence considerably increased, and the Apprentices were permitted to serve out the remainder of their respective limes to government, on the same terms as had been agreed to by their masters. That the Abuse in respect to the extra to the Apprentices had been carried to a great extent, appears by the Statement of the average wages of the officers Apprentices, compared with the average wages of the classes of workmen to which they belonged; as, notwithstanding the daily rate of wages of the Apprentices is considerably less than that of the workmen, the wages of the former have in many instances exceeded those of the latter.
1057
1058
IRREGULARITIES AND ABUSES.
In the preceding pages we have endeavoured to give account of the regulations at different times established, for the employment and payment of the various classes of workmen in his majesty's yard at Plymouth; and to shew in what manner those Regulations have been earned into execution. In the course of the detail we have made such observations, and suggested such alterations as the circumstances appeared to require. We propose only to add a few general remarks.—The Irregularities and Abuses which we have pointed out may be attributed in a great measure to innovations in the mode of employing and paying the workmen, which nave taken place within the last 20 years, and principally during the late war; innovations adopted without due consideration, carried to an extravagant length; and pursued without system, or that degree of attention which is particularly requisite in all new undertakings, to prevent mistakes, and correct such parts as experience may point out to be defective: schemes of Work which, perhaps, might have been introduced with advantage partially, have been adopted generally:—An Employment by the Piece or Job: has been directed under circumstance, and in cases where such a mode of employment was impracticable:—Irregularity and De-
1059
1060
1061
1062
COMPARISON.
No. of the Article in the Scheme.
Sum paid for the performance of it by JOB.
Sum that ought to have been allowed by the TASK Scheme.
1st, 2d, 3d,
£.
18
0
laying Blocks included
£.
13
10
17
128
13
8
83
11
8
18
95
8
6
59
5
4
19
125
13
7
95
11
1
20
245
11
5
199
9
7
23
102
16
1
94
5
7
24
98
9
2
59
16
4
25
107
6
11
57
19
10
£.
174
£.
13
3
By this Statement it appears, that the prices for performing by Job the Works contained, in the 24th article of the Scheme of Task, are 64l. 12s. per cent. higher than
1063
1064
1065
1066
1067
1068
1069
1070
1071
CHARLES MORICE POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. s.)
JOHN FOWD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L. s.)
WM. MACKWORTH PRAED, (L. S.)
Office of Naval Enquiry, No. 24, Great George-street, 1st May, 1804.
WOOLWICH YARD.
IT having been intimated by some of the members of the Navy Board, that the business of the other Yards, with respect to employing and paying the workmen, had been conducted with more regularity than at Plymouth, we judged it expedient to enquire into the practice of some other Yard, previous to making our Report.— With this view we fixed upon Woolwich Yard, not only because it is under the immediate superintendence of the Navy Board, and visited in general, weekly, by the Junior Surveyor, and occasionally by the Deputy Comptroller, but also because it is a small Yard, to which ships very seldom resort for the purpose of refitting or occasional repairs; and it might therefore be reasonably expected, that the accounts would be kept with more correctness and precision than at the out-ports, where the works carried on are far more extensive, and of a more pressing and complex nature.—Although the practice in this Yard has differed in some respects from that at Plymouth, we are concerned to state, that an equal if not a greater degree of fallacy has prevailed in the accounts; and that the workman who have been supposed to be employed by the Piece, at wages depending on their exertions, have been paid with as little regard to the real amount of their earnings as at Plymouth—The duty of mustering the men does not appear to have been strictly attended to. The weather being rainy, the absence of the clerks, or their being busily employed, were assigned as reasons for the neglect of it occasionally. This is a duty of too much importance to be dispensed with upon such frivolous grounds.—We learned that it had been usual for the Clerks of the Checque, previous to the appointment of the present officer, to take the fees generally paid by the workmen for the Quarterly Notes of the amount of their earnings, and that it had been a practice for the clerks to take Quarterly Fees or Douceurs from the workmen for not checquing them when
1072
1073
1074
1075
1076
For Materials
£.4,420
Workmanship
3,853
Total expence of the Hull
£8,273
In consequence of the report made by the Officers of Sheerness Yard of the state of the Amaranthe, and of the necessity for her being taken into Dock to have her defects made good, she was ordered to Deptford, where it was judged advisable to pay her off. We feel it our duly to state, that the repairs of this ship appear to have been conducted in a very improper and negligent manner; and that the expence attending them has been extravagantly great. By the evidence of Mr. Knowles, assistant to the Master Shipwright of Woolwich Yard, under whose immediate superintendence, the repair of the Amaranthe was commenced, and carried on for a considerable time, it will appear, that the usual precaution of surveying the ship, previous to the work being undertaken was omitted; that she was not open for inspection; and that in the course of carrying on her repair, none of the plank of her bottom was taken out to view the state of the timbers, although it is a general practice to remove some of the plank for this purpose. Mr. Knowles states, that Mr. Tovery, who was then Master Shipwright, but since deceased superintended the repair of the ship himself, and would not allow the Assistant to exercise his discretion in any point; and that the very necessary precautions before stated were omitted by the express directions of the Master Shipwright. The works performed to the Amaranthe consisted chiefly of new topsides and decks, and fitting the store rooms and magazine, after the manner of English men of war; not a single timber was shifted, and the ship was put out of hand with new topsides and decks, and a rotten bottom. As the Master Shipwright was deceased, we had no means of becoming acquainted with the reasons which could have induced him, in the instance of the Amaranthe, to depart, so injuriously to the public, from the established practice of the service; but we
1077
Materials.
Workmanship.
Total
£.
£.
£.
Hull
4,420
3,853
8,273
Masts and Yards
10
56
66
Furniture & Stores
4,621
110
4,731
£. 13,070
Having required of the Officers a more detailed account of the workmanship, distinguishing the expence of each class of workmen, they reported it to be:
HULL.
Masts & Yards.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
For the Shipwrights
3,117
5
11
—
Mastinakers
-
-
56
0
0
Caulkers
221
10
8
—
Oakum Boys
10
10
8
—
Joiners
79
18
0
—
House Carpenter
33
0
9
—
Plumber
6
6
8
—
Pitch Heater
2
17
6
—
Bricklayers
9
1
0
—
yard Labourers
4
18
0
—
Yard Labourers
63
16
2
—
Scavelmen
48
17
7
—
Blockmakers
8
15
6
—
Teams
2
13
4
—
Sawyers
243
17
5
—
Total
£.3,853
9
2
56
0
0
The sum of eight thousand two hundred and seventy-three pounds, charged as the expence of materials and wormanship in the repair of this ship, amounts to the sum of sixteen pounds twelve shillings and two pence per ton, for which, or a less sum, it is stated, a new ship similar to the Amaranthe might have been built;—On referring to the Task Scheme, we find, that the sum allowed for Shipwrights' labour in building a twenty-eight gun ship
1078
1079
1080
1081
1082
1083
CHARLES MORICE POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
WM. MACKWORTH PRAED, (L. S:)
Office of Naval Enquiry, No. 24, Great George-street, 1st May, 1804.
SEVENTH REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
Ordered to be printed
th July
NAVAL HOSPITAL AT EAST STONEHOUSE.
LE CATON HOSPITAL SUIP.
The Seventh Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the Forty-third Year of his Majesty's Reign, intituled, An Act for appointing Commissioners to enquire and examine into any Irregularities, Frauds, or Abuses, which are or have been practised by persons employed in the several Naval Departments therein mentioned, and in the business of Prize Agency, and to report such observations as shall occur to them for preventing such Irregularities, Frauds, and Abuses, and for the better conducting and managing the business of the said Departments, and of Prize Agency, in future."
NAVAL HOSPITAL AT EAST STONEHOUSE.
HAVING finished our Enquiries at the Dock Yard at Plymouth, we proceeded to the Royal Hospital at East Storehouse, to examine the state and internal œconomy of it, and to enquire into the nature of some Abuses, which had been, stated to
1084
STORES.
Under this head are comprehended beding, dresses for the sick, and all articles of furniture for the use of the hospital. These, as they are wanted, the steward and agent apply for by letter to the governor, which he transmits to the * Board, and, if the demand is approved of, a supply is sent from London, or ordered to be purchased on the spot. Some very inconsiderable articles, not properly coming under the denomination of stores, are bought by the steward without previous application to the Board.—When supplies have been required, it has not been usual to
*
When
is mentioned in this Report, without further designation, it applies to the
1085
examine and state the remains at the time of making the demand, which, we think, should always be done, that the Board may be enabled to judge of the necessity of them.—It was formerly the Custom for only one of the junior clerks in the steward's office to attend the receipt of stores, of which an account was copied for the agent from the steward's book; within the last year, the steward or agent, with one of the lieutenants, has inspected inequality and quantity of all stores received, and the account has been taken by the steward or agent in whose charge they are kept; whilst this regulation is observed, nothing further seems necessary for securing the proper receipt of stores.—If we are to form an opinion of the general attention formerly paid to the stores in this hospital, from the following description of the condition in which they were found, on the survey made in May 1803, we cannot judge of it too unfavourably: After enumerating the several articles in the account, the following is subjoined:
"All which stores are in the state and condition as expressed against each article in the margin, and we have left the same in charge of Meffrs. George Cleather and Richard Beddek, steward and agent of the said hospital; and we are of opinion, that the damage and great waste of stores has been occasioned through want of method and regularity in the Arrangement of them, various articles of all description being thrown together; new with old, clean with foul, dump with dry; wood, iron, linen, and woollen, all mixed in the greatest state of disorder and confusion; and with respect to the state of the cellars, store-rooms, wards, and garrets, in which the stores have been kept, was in a most shameful condition; the cellars very damp, and the bale goods placed in them have suffered very much from it; and we do declare, that we have taken this survey with such minute care and equity, that, if required, we are ready to make oath to the impartiality of our proceedings. Given under our hands, in the Royal Naval Hospital at Plymouth, the 1st day of June 1803. (Signed)
Ja. Murray. Tho. Huch. Winter. Geo. Tremlett."
This survey was made by three divisional masters, superintending the ships is ordi-
1086
1087
1088
PROVISIONS.
Since the appointment of a Governor and lieutenants, the steward and agent alternately, with one of the lieutenants, have attended to inspect the quality of the provisions, which have also been weighed in their presence. If any part has been found not equal to contract, it has been reported to the Governor, and rejected. If this inspection were extended, as the governor's instructions direct, to the cutting up of the meat, Abuses in this part of the business would be effectually shut out.—The quality of the beer is stated to have been frequently complained of, and returned by order of the Governor; and the extravagant use of porter in this Hospital is attributed to that cause. It is to be regretted, that the remedy provided in the contract had not been resorted to, and sound beer procured, and the difference in price, if any, charged to the contractor, at any rate, it ought to have been represented to the Board.—By a letter from the inspector to the Admiralty, it appears, that 4,000 gallons of porter were expended in this Hospital in six months, whereas the expence at Haslar had not in any one of the last five years exceeded 1,828 gallons; and in the year 1801, it was only 764 gal-
1089
1090
MEDICINES AND NECESSARIES.
Medicines were formerly supplied by the direction of the Board, on the demand of the dispenser; no accounts of the remains, or of the expenditure were stated, except in the case of the issues of Medicines to the Fleet. The necessity of the supply is now certified by a physician and surgeon, and a statement of the remains accompanies the demand. The dispenser examines the quality, and sometimes the quantity, whether sent from London or procured at Plymouth. This part of his duty should be carefully examined by him, or one of his Assistants, and the account, or bill of parcels, signed in proof of such examination. We recommend that, excepting in cases of sudden emergency, all medicines be supplied from London. The same neglect, as to accounts of remains, appears to have prevailed in this as in the Store department. From the time when the present Dispenser entered upon his office, eleven years ago, till June 1803, no survey was taken of the Medicines; it was then done by three Navy Surgeons, and should be regularly taken at proper intervals. The Dispenser has also the charge of Necessaries for the use of the sick, wine, porter, tea, sugar, cocoa, fruit, &c. He is supposed to inspect the quality, and to ascertain the quantity of Necessaries received; but this has not always been done. No account was ever kept of the expenditure of fruit and eggs; of the other necessaries, a monthly statement is now sent to the board, audited by the Governor, one Physician, and one Surgeon. In the consumption of some articles of Necessaries, a considerable abuse has prevailed; wine, fruit, and eggs, have been expended in large quantities; though the two latter have, for several years, been considered as unnecessary at Haslar Hospital. It appears, that in consequence of a representation made in 1794, by the Commander of a squadron at Ply mouth, that fruit, and a greater quantity of wine than was usually administered,
1091
LABOURERS.
The present establishment of Labourers is twenty, one attached to the Dispensary at 10s. 6d. per week, two others to the Office of the Steward and Agent, at 8s. 6d. and the rest employed in various services of the Hospital, at 5s. with provisions estimated at 5s. a week more, and a ward allotted for such of them as chuse to lodge in the Hospital, of which only four avail themselves. There is not at present any check established upon these servants of
1092
REPAIRS.
A Surveyor has recently been appointed by the Navy Board, to superintend the repairs in the departments of the Navy, and Sick and Wounded Boards, in the Plymouth District, at a salary of 5s. a day, instead of charging specifically for every survey or estimate, which for work done in the Hospital had amounted, on an average, to 63l. per annum. In large undertakings, the Surveyor is always consulted before they are reported to the Board, but the necessity of small repairs is merely stated in a weekly letter to the Board, and, if approved, the Surveyor is generally acquainted therewith. The work is executed by tradesmen in the different branches holding contracts with the Board, to whom notice is given of the work to be performed. In trifling repairs, the Contractors are paid for the materials used, and for the time of the workmen at the contract price of labour per day. Large repairs are paid for by measurement; at the end of six months, the Surveyor measures all such works, and delivers an account of them at the Steward's Office; he also certifies the repairs done by day work. This part of his duty he has complied with, because the bills could not be paid without his signature, but he has done it with reluctance, being wholly dissatisfied with the irregular manner in which the account of the materials and workmen's time was kept, and has made frequent remonstrances on the subject to the officers of the Hospital. Formerly no check was established on the quantity or
1093
Having noticed such circumstances as came under the proposed heads, we shall now proceed to make such general observations as have occurred to us, and to suggest such alterations as we think may tend to the better management of the affairs of the Hospital.—It appears that the Butler and some other servants of the establishment, have been continued at full wages and allowance of provisions, with the indulgence of necessaries, whilst other persons were
1094
1095
1096
1097
CHAS. M. POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L.S.)
WM. MACKWORTH PRAED. (L. S.)
Office of Naval Enquiry, Great George-Street, 9th July 1804.
LE CATON HOSPITAL SHIP.
IN the year 1796, a letter under a fictitious signature was sent to the Commissioners of Sick and Wounded Seamen, representing Abuses in the article of Provisions, on board Le Caton Hospital Ship at Plymouth. The Board took every means in their power to communicate with the writer, and the Purser of the ship was desired to lay before them any well-authenticated facts that came to his knowledge, but without success in either case. The same person, though he again addressed the board in 1798, did not make himself known, and the Purser being interested in the contract for victualling the sick, no information was given by him on the subject. In May 1803, a letter, of which the following is a copy, was addressed to the First Lord of the Admiralty, which he immediately transmitted to us, and we, in consequence, made such enquiry as the distance of time from the transaction would permit. "Modbury, Devon. May 21st, 1803. My lord, as Hospital Ships may again be appointed at the different ports, I beg leave (as I think it my duty) to communicate to your lordship some proceedings on board one of them during the late war. The Purser of the ship alluded to, was the Contractor with the Sick and Hurt Board for victualling, &c. the Sick; a very
extravagant table was established
expence
1098
Tho. Dawkins."
Time.
Quarterly Sum.
£.
s.
d.
1794.
May 20th & June 30th
279
0
0
July 1st & sept. 30th
279
16
0
Oct. 1st & Dec. 31st
370
14
0
1795.
Jan. 1st & Mar. 31st
559
7
0
April 1st & June 30th
503
19
0
July 1st & Sept. 30th
660
0
0
Oct. 1st & Dec. 31st
554
16
0
1796.
Jan. 1st & Mar. 31st
487
4
0
April 1st & June 30th
559
7
9
July 1st & Sept. 30th
396
11
11
Oct. 1st & Dec. 31st
493
0
0
1797.
Jan. 1st & Mar. 31st
500
0
0
April 1st & June 3Oth
490
6
4
July 1st & Sept. 3Oth
276
4
7
Oct. 1st & Dec. 31st
317
15
4
1798.
Jan. 1st & 11th inclusive
33
9
6
By the evidence of the writer of this letter, and of the Surgeon's Mate of the ship, who was the Sub-Contractor, it appears that Mr. Samuel Keast the Purser, since deceased, on the 8th of Feb. 1794, entered into a Contract with the Sick and Wounded Board for victualling the Sick on board that ship; that, on the 1st of the following month, he made over the profits of the Contract to the Surgeon's first Mate of the said ship, on an agreement to be indemnified against loss, and to be paid 100 guineas each year, whilst the contract lasted; that the Surgeon was privy to the agreement, and received one half of the profits; and that a table was kept on board for the officers, furnished with wine and other articles by the tradesmen who supplied provisions for the Sick, and paid for out of the profits of the contract.—In addition to the articles furnished for the officers table, it appears by the evidence of the Surgeon's Mate, who was the Sub-Con-
1099
Year
The Number of Patients & Servants, Victualled for a Day.
Amt. paid to the Contractor
Profits of the Contract, exclusive of the Expences of the Officer's Table, and of the Provisions supplied to the Purser.
Cost of Victualling the Patients & Servants, including the expense of the officer's Table
Allowances to the Contractor.
Sums paid over to the sub-contractor.
Total.
1794
51,676
2,583
78
929
1,008
1,575
1795
32,653
5,135
105
2,278
2,383
2,752
1796
82,929
5,528
105
1,936
2,041
3,487
1797
79,390
5,292
105
1,584
1,689
3,603
1798
3,219
214
3
83
86
127
Tot.
299,867
18,754
396
6,810
7,208
11,546
Upon a consideration of the above account, it must be allowed, that the profits upon the contract, amounting to upwards of 62 per cent. exceed all reasonable bounds, and that the advance granted by the Sick and Wounded Board in May 1795, is not justified by the apparent necessity of the case, as, upon an average of the number victualled for the whole time, it appears the cost to the Contractor did not amount to more than 9d a man a day, and in the year 1794 to 7¼ only. It may be said, that the sums which we have stated as the total profits of the contract are incorrect, as some payments were made by the Sub Contractor, which are not deducted from the sums paid over to him by the original Contractor, but such payments
1100
1101
CHAS. M. POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
WM. MACKWORTH PRAED. (L.S.)
Office of Naval Enquiry, Great George-street, 9th July, 1804.
EIGHTH REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY,
Ordered to be printed
th July
HIS MAJESTY'S VICTUALLING DEPARTMENT AT PLYMOUTH.
EMBEZZLEMENT OF THE KING's CASKS.
The Eight Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the Forty-third Year of his Majesty's Reign, intituled, An Act for appointing Commissioners to enquire and examine into any Irregularities, Frauds, or Abuses, which are or have been practised by persons employed in the several Naval Departments therein mentioned, and in the business of Prize Agency, and to report such observations as shall occur to them for preventing such Irregularities, Frauds, and Abuses, and for the better conducting and managing the Business of the said Departments, and of Pike Agency, in future.
1102
HIS MAJESTYS VICTUALLING DEPARTMENT AT PLYMOUTH.
In the course of our Enquiries at Plymouth, we examined into several matters in the Victualling Department, and have to notice some Abuses and Irregularities which have prevailed therein. The business of this branch is for the most part carried on at the Victualling Office at Plymouth; but the Brewery, and principal part of the Cooperage, are carried on at Southdown, about 4 or 5 miles from Plymouth on the West side of Hamoaze. We shall arrange our Report on this Department under the following heads: 1st, Employ and Pay of Coopers. 2d, Receipt, Issue, and Account of Provisions and Stores in general. 3d, Receipt and Management of Coals. 4. Sale of Old Stores.
EMPLOY AND PAY OF COOPERS.
The Coopers are employed either by the day or piece-work. The numbers borne at the time of our Enquiry were as follows: At Plymouth, 11 working by the day, called Day-Coopers; 8 working by the piece, called Block-Coopers; and at Southdown 6 Day-Coopers and 44 Block Coopers. The established rate of pay for the Day-Coopers is 2s. 6d. a day, and 6 pence an hour for extra time. The Block-Coopers can earn, upon an average, about 7s. 6d. a day. It is obvious, that either the wages by the day are too low, or the prices of piece work, by which so much more may be earned, are set too high. The prices of piece-work were revised in Jan. 1803, but the Master-Cooper at Southdown was not consulted on the occasion. In his opinion, the prices then settled are not fair and equal; the work upon some articles being much more profitable than upon others. We understand that upon some Jobs, such as repairs called Trimming, 12s. a day may be earned, while upon others, no more than six or seven shillings a day can be earned, though the same degree of skill be required, and equal diligence be exerted in both cases: The consequence is, that those to whom the less profitable Jobs are allotted become dissatisfied with their Officers, and jealousies and cabals arise among them which are injurious to the service, and there is reason to believe that this circumstance has sometimes been the cause of their making unfounded charges against their Officers. It follows, that the prices should again be revised, and
1103
RECEIPT, ISSUE, AND ACCOUNT OF PROVISIONS AND STORES IN GENERAL.
The mode of receiving, issuing, and accounting for provisions and stores, is de-
1104
1105
1106
1107
RECEIPT AND MANAGEMENT OF COALS.
Coals for the use of this department are received at Southdown. There are some Abuses in the receipt and management of them, which require to be corrected; the vessels which supply the Office with coals come chiefly from the north, and their cargoes are measured at the shipping Port by the chalder, containing 2 chaldrons, according to which measure their cockets or clearances are made out; the cargoes are measured at the time of delivery at Southdown, a Meter from the Custom-House attending to ascertain the quantity on which the duties are to be paid.—In order to form a judgment of the correctness of the accounts of coals received for the use of the Victualling-Office, we obtained from the Officer of the Customs, an account of the quantities on which the duties had been paid, and the quantities appearing by the cockets to have been shipped oil board the ships stated to have discharged at Southdown, from 1790 to 1803; we also obtained from the Victualling-Office, an account of the quantities received for the Use of this Department during that period.—The accounts prior to 1799, did not assist us in the object we had in view; for before that year, entire cargoes were not in general delivered at Southdown, but it was the practice for the Agent to buy parts of cargoes on the spot, as coals were wanted; since that time contracts have been made by the Board in town for entire cargoes; and it appears that the quantities for which the Contractors have been paid have considerably exceeded the cocket measure. In the delivery of seven cargoes, between Aug. 1799 and Oct. 1801, from a vessel belonging to Messrs. Henley and Son, constantly cocketed at 112 chalders, equal to 224 chaldrons, government has been charged from 239 to 260 chaldrons; an average excess of upwards of 34 chaldrons on every cargo. We conceive that this excess must have arisen from the Meter and Contractor having an interest in raising the accounts of the quantity delivered, the fees of the former and the gains of the latter being thereby encreased.—This influence can only be counteracted by a vigilant superintendence of the person entrusted with the receipt; a duty which appears not to have been sufficiently attended to. The officers at pre-
1108
SALE OF OLD STORES.
The proceedings at the brewery, in respect to the sale of old stores, appear to have been very improper for some years past. The stores sold there consist of staves, hoops, and headings of casks, returned after having been issued to ships, and used for some time; the casks, when so returned, are generally examined by the foreman of the coopers, and the serviceable separated from the unserviceable; the serviceable casks which require repair, are delivered to a cooper for that purpose, who sets apart such of them as he may judge not worth repairing, and lays aside any staves, hoops, or headings, which appear to him unfit for use; the unserviceable casks are also delivered to a cooper to be taken to pieces, and he, or a labourer experienced in this business, separates the serviceable staves, hoops, and headings, from the unserviceable. Sales of these articles so deemed unserviceable are very trequent; about once every quarter or half year; and they are advertised about a fortnight or 3 weeks before-hand. The articles are sold in lots, and the catalogues of sale give notice that the goods are to be taken with all their faults.—The following Abuses and Irregularities are said to have attended these sales.—The sales are usually advertised before the lots are completed, and frequently more Jots are sold than are even begun to be made up at the time of sale. The buyers are permitted to reject such articles as are broken or decayed (though the goods, according to the conditions of sale, are to be taken with all their faults) and they often receive articles which are serviceable in exchange for those which they reject. The lots are sometimes taken away at improper seasons, very early in the morning, very late in the evening, or in the night; and the buyers (by collusion with persons whose duty it is to prevent such frauds) have in some instances
1109
1110
1111
CHARLES MORICE POLE, (L. S.)
EVAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L.S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
WM. MACKWORTH PRAED, (L. S:)
Office of Naval Enquiry, No. 24, Great George-street, 13th July, 1804.
EMBEZZLEMENT OF THE KING'S CASKS.
Having examined into a transaction respecting the embezzlement of some casks, the property of the Crown, we found the circumstances of the case so extraordinary, that we feel it our duty to detail them.—In the beginning of Dec. 1801, before or on the 3d of that month, Mr. Thomas Miller, the Agent-Victualler at Plymouth, received intimation that some butts or casks belonging to the Victualling-Office were concealed at a Brewery called the Turner brewery in Maurice Town, near Plymouth Dock.—The partners in the brewery were Messrs. Frederick Dansey, John White, Perry Fitzherbert, and Martin Thomas, the greatest brewers at Plymouth Dock, and considered as persons of respectability and property; Mr. White was the managing partner, and resided at the brewery.—On Friday the 4th of Dec, the Agent-Victualler having obtained S search-warrant, went to the brewery with Mr. Joseph Pridham, an attorney, Mr. Samuel Triscott, the first foreman of the coopers in the Victualling Department at Plymouth, and John Harry, a constable: Mr. White was there, and being informed that they had a warrant, and were come to search for King's casks, he went over the premises with them, opening the cellars, which they examined.—In one of them which was locked, there were fount 3 empty butts with the heads out. These butts had the King's mark, namely, the broad arrow, distinctly visible upon them and they had also the block or private mark usually placed on the casks by the coopers who make them, by which it appeared that they were manufactured a Southdown, the brewery belonging to the Victualling-office, 2 or 3 miles from Man rice Town on the other side of the water. In the same cellar there were 11 other butts also empty, and with the heads out; from these the King's mark appeared to have been lately effaced, the places when the mark is usually made having beer fresh chipped or dubbed; and in other
1112
1113
1114
1115
1116
1117
1118
1119
1120
CHARLES M. POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
WM. MACKWORTH PRAED, (L. S.)
Office of Naval Enquiry, Great George-Street, 13th July 1804.
NINTH REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
Ordered to be printed
th Jan.
RECEIPT AND ISSUE OF STORES IN PLYMOUTH YARD.
The Ninth Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the Forty-third Year of the Reign of his present Majesty, intituled, "An Act for appointing "Commissioners to enquire and examine into any Irregularities, Frauds, or Abuses, which are or have been practised by persons employed in the several Naval Departments therein mentioned, and in the Business of Prize Agency, and to report such Observations as shall occur to them for preventing such Irregularities, Frauds, and Abuses, and for the better conducting and managing the Business of the said Departments, and of Prize Agency, in future."
RECEIPT AND ISSUE OF STORES IN PLYMOUTH YARD.
IN our Sixth Report, we confined our observations to the mode of employing and paying the different classes of Artificers and Workmen in His Majesty's Dock Yard at Plymouth, to which subject our mention was more particularly directed. We propose, in our present Report, to state the result of our enquiries respecting the Receipt and Issue of Stores; but previously to entering on the subject we must observe, that our enquiries have been in
1121
1122
1123
1124
1125
TIMBER.
On this subject we examined Mr. T. Netherton, first clerk to the clerk of the checque; Mr. J. Knapman, second clerk to the storekeeper; T. Stephens, a labourer who had been employed 36 years in the receipt of timber; Mr. T. Jenner, master mast-maker; Mr. T. Strover, the present timber master, and Joseph Tucker, esq. master shipwright. From the evidence of the three former, it is very apparent that the various regulations established by the Navy Board upon the receipt of this article, were during the late war in great part neglected. The standing orders of the Navy Board directed, that the master shipwright, (his assistants), clerk of the checque, storekeeper, and clerk of the survey, or any two of them, should attend at the receipt of all timber; that the officers should take especial care that the measurers measured every piece, each measurer separately; and that they agreed as to the dimensions and contents before the timber was received. The measurers consisted of a clerk from the checque's, storekeeper's, and survey's offices, and a person selected from the class of shipwrights, who was styled master shipwright's measurer. The officers were to see that each log was marked with a progressive number, the initials of the contractor's name, and of the officers present at the receipt, and the date of the year: great care was directed to be taken that the timber, on receipt, was compared with the purveyor's reports, and that none was received unless the purveyor's reports were produced; and the officers were to keep a very particular account of every piece; inserting against each the number stamped thereon by the purveyor, so that recourse might be easily bad to any piece. When an offer of timber is made to the Navy Board, it is the practice to send a purveyor, who is always a shipwright, to view the timber, and if judged by him fit for the service, he stamps his initials and a number on each log, and having ascertained the rough contents, he makes a particular report thereof to the Navy Board, a copy of which is forwarded to the Yard. The timber from the forest of
1126
1127
1128
1129
HEMP.
The Hemp, previous to its being received, is surveyed by the master attendant, clerk of the survey, and master rope-maker, who certify to the Navy Board its fitness for the service upon the back of the certificates, by which the contractors obtain payment. Those officers, it is stated, generally attend the opening of 4 or 5 bundles at the beginning of each delivery, and occasionally inspect others during the receipt of the cargo. A foreman of the ropemakers constantly attends the receipt, and causes such hemp as may be of inferior quality, or damaged, to be set aside, the contracts being made for good and clean Hemp only.—In order to ascertain whether there had been any improper practices in the receipt of this article, we called on the officers of the Yard for an account of the quantities for which the contractors had been paid, from the year 1790 to 1802, with the names of the ships by which they were imported; and we obtained from the commissioners of the customs an account of the Hemp imported by those ships on which the duty had been paid, distinguishing the quantities landed in the Dock Yard from the quantities landed elsewhere. Upon a comparison of these accounts, it appeared, that the quantities certified to have been received by the officers of the Yard, uniformly exceeded the quantities stated by the officers of the customs to have been delivered there, in a proportion of about 8 or 9 cwt. to every 100 tons. On enquiring into this circumstance, we found that such difference arose from an allowance made to the merchant by the officers of the customs, on each weighing, for the draught of the scale, which was not required by the officers of the Yard, they giving the contractor credit for the exact quantity delivered. It might have been expected that the allowance made by government to the merchant, on the payment of the duties, would have been made by the contractors on the delivery of the goods at the Dock Yard; but it has been stated to us, that it is not usual with merchants in the port of London to make any allowance to each other for the draughts of the scale on the sale of Hemp. The
1130
1131
IRON.
In order to examine and check the receipt of this article, we pursued the same method as with the Hemp. We required of the officers of the Dock Yard an Account of the Quantities which the contractors had been paid for between the years 1790 and 1802, specifying the ships from which they had been received. We experienced considerable difficulty in obtaining this account, owing to the Yard-officers not having registered the names of the ships. Recourse was therefore had by them to a book, kept in a very loose and incorrect manner by the boatswain of the Yard, of the employment of the labourers, and to the contractor's agent residing in the neighbourhood. Having received the best account that could thus be furnished of the names of the ships, we applied to the officers of the customs for an account of the Iron imported by them. On comparing these Accounts, we found that the quantities paid for exceeded those reported by the Custom House officers to have been landed in the Dock Yard, in about the same proportion as the Hemp; and the difference is to be attributed to the same cause, the allowance made by the Customs for the draught of the scale. In order to prevent similar difficulty, and to facilitate enquiry in case of suspicion of fraud or collusion, we recommend that the names of the ships bringing stores to the Yard be entered in the respective receipt-books kept by the officers. The Iron wanted for the service of the Yard is delivered by the storekeeper to the master smith, when demanded, generally in quantities of two tons at a time, of which the storekeeper is acquitted, and it remains hi the charge of the master smith until it is manufactured. No account was formerly taken of the expenditure of iron; but the master smith has, for about two years, by direction of the present master shipwright, kept an account of the iron received and expended, which is balanced monthly. The waste in the manufacture of iron is very uncertain. The iron is at present weighed by the master smith as it is delivered to the workmen, and the difference between such weight, and the weight of the articles manufactured, is set off in his account as wastage. The old iron, as it accumulates, is examined by the master smith, who gives a receipt to the storekeeper for the weight of such articles as may be fit to be re-manufactured;
1132
COALS.
The Coals required for the use of the Dock yards are supplied under contracts made annually by the Navy Board for specific quantities. There are clauses in the contracts by which it is agreed, that the coals shall be measured by the vat, and that if it should become necessary to purchase Coals at an advanced price, owing to their not being delivered at the times specified, the contractors shall pay the difference of price. The latter clause is made a part of other contracts, and we think it should form a part of all, as we conceive it would act more forcibly to the fulfilling of contracts, than any reasonable penalty that can be attached to the non-performance of them.—Coals are sold and shipped at Newcastle, Sunderland, and Blyth, by the chaldron, neighing 53 cwt. It is impossible to ascertain with precision the number of chaldrons, of 36 bushels, which each cargo, when delivered, ought to make out, owing to the difference in the specific gravity of the Coals, and to there being a greater or less quantity of large or small Coal in the cargo; but it has been stated to us by the officers of the Customs at Newcastle, that 8 Newcastle chaldrons, when delivered in the Port of London, have, till within the last 12 months, made out nearly double, and since that time about 15, London chaldrons; and that the same quantity when delivered in most of the Out-ports, makes out about 16 chaldrons, and sometimes more.—The deliveries in the Dock Yards should bear the same proportion to the Newcastle chaldron as those made on the River Thames, as they are alike measured by the vat; for although there is an allowance to the buyer in the Port of London, of one chaldron upon 20, called in-
1133
1134
1135
1136
1137
1138
1139
PAINT WORK.
The Paint Work, until lately, was performed by contract, and nearly the same regulations were established with respect to the accounts of the work as were directed to be observed in the receipts of stores. The Navy Board having revised the mode of taking and keeping the accounts of Paint Work, directed by their Warrant of the 1st of June 1781, that four clerks should in general attend the measurement, but never less than three; that the foreman afloat, or master workmen in their respective branches, should constantly attend the measures, to certify what part of the work had been once, twice, or thrice painted: that the accounts of the work, when measured, should be immediately entered by each clerk in a separate book, and afterwards in books to be kept at the offices of the master shipwright, clerk of the checque, storekeeper, and clerk of the survey. The officers were particularly directed not to suffer the Paint Work to be measured without the attendance of the foreman afloat and master workmen; and they were also strictly charged not to suffer any bills to be made out to the contractor in payment unless it appeared, that all the books before-mentioned had been duly kept in the respective offices, and that they exactly agreed with each other. Notwithstanding these positive directions, the whole of the regulations they were intended to enforce appear to have been very generally neglected during the late war. It is stated in the evidence of the measurers who were selected from among the shipwrights, the one on the part of the master shipwright, the other on the part of the clerk of the checque, that the clerks very seldom attended, and that consequently the taking of the account of the work devolved upon them; that instead of the foreman afloat and master workmen attending to certify the number of times the work had been painted, they relied on the word of the foreman of the painters, a servant of the contractor; that when the contractor's foreman gave in accounts of trifling articles, they not only took his word for the number of times the articles might have been painted, but also for the quantity of work. From these circumstances
1140
CONTRACTS IN THE YARD.
The Contracts carried on in this Dock Yard, besides those for the erection and repairs of buildings, are for Oar-making, Treenail Mooting, Carvers, Paviors, Tinman's and Glazier's Work: the contractors for the three latter branches find their own materials. The Repairs performed by the
1141
SALE OF OLD STORES.
The old stores, as they accumulate beyond the quantities wanted for conversion, and for inferior purposes, are, on application of the storekeeper to the commissioner, made up into lots for sale, in quantities that may best suit the convenience of the purchasers. It has been understood that great irregularities were formerly practised in the making up, and in delivering the lots of old stores; but the whole of the business at present is stated to be conducted with much care and attention. The Navy Board, in the year 1747, directed the old rope about to be sold to be cut into lengths of 20 fathoms; latterly it has been cut into lengths of 3 feet; although this practice renders the old cordage less productive at the time of sale, yet, as it is intended to check embezzlement by depriving those in whose possession King's cordage may be found,
1142
GENERAL REMARKS.
Having finished the Observations we had to make under the proposed heads, we shall now offer such General Remarks as have occurred to us.—The mode of accounting for the Stores in the department of the clerk of the Rope Yard, is very loose and unsatisfactory. The only Account kept by that officer is a Progress Book, in which is entered the number of persons, of the different classes, at work each day, the mode of their employment, the articles manufactured, and the quantity of hemp, received and expended. This account is balanced weekly, and a very confused Report to the Navy Board made out therefrom, containing an account of the expence and remains of hemp, and of the articles which have been manufactured within the week.—No notice is taken in the Progress Book, or in the weekly Report to the Navy Board, of the expenditure of various articles received from the storekeeper, and used in the manufacture of cordage, such as tallow, tram oil, and a variety of others, to a considerable amount.—Very large issues are likewise made by the storekeeper to the clerk of the Rope Yard, of old cordage and junk, to be re-manufactured; these articles are not delivered by weight, but the quantity is estimated, and the storekeeper discharges himself accordingly. No receipt is given by the clerk of the Rope Yard for the quantity received by him, nor does he charge himself therewith. The articles manufactured from the old cordage and junk are entered in the Progress Book, but so blended with those made from hemp, as to render the whole very confused.—We are of opinion, that the accounts of the re-manufactured Cordage, and of that made from hemp, should be kept perfectly distinct from each other, and that the clerk
1143
1144
1145
1146
1147
CHAS. M. POLE, (L. S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
WM. MACKWORTH PRAED. (L.S.)
Office of Naval Enquiry, Great George street, 23d Nov. 1804.
TENTH REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
Ordered to be printed
th Feb.
THE OFFICE OF THE TREASURER OF HIS MAJESTY'S NAVY.
The Tenth Report of the Commissioners appointed by an Act of the Forty-third
1148
THE OFFICE OF THE TREASURER OF HIS MAJESTY'S NAVY.
In pursuance of the duty imposed on us by the 43d of his present maj. c. 16, "to examine into and investigate all such corrupt and fraudulent Practices, Irregularities, Frauds, and Abuses, or other Misconduct, as might be found to have existed or to exist in any of the several offices or departments thereinafter mentioned, or to have been practised or committed by any person or persons that then were or had been concerned in managing, conducting, or transacting the business thereof respectively, or employed in any manner therein; we issued our precepts to the Treasurer of the Navy, for an account of the state and disposition of the balance of public money, with which he stood charged on the 31st of Dec. in each year from 1786 to 1802 inclusively; that we might judge of the propriety of the balances of public money left in his hands, and see whether the balances unappropriated to the public service at those periods, were in the Bank of England, as required by the 25th of his maj. c. 31. The returns made to our precepts commenced with the year 1784, and we discovered by them, that the sums standing in the name of the Treasurer of the Navy at the bank were, for the most part, considerably less than his unappropriated balances.—The discovery of these deficiencies led us to examine the regulations which had from time to time been established for the better management of the office of Treasurer of the Navy, and the circumstances from which they arose: We shall first give a brief account of these circumstances and regulations, as well as a general outline of the mode of carrying on the business of the Navy Pay Office, and then state the
1149
1150
1151
1152
The Treasurer of the Navy is appointed by patent; he does not perform in person any of the official duties of his situation, but nominates and appoints the Paymaster, to whom he delegates the whole charge and conduct of the office by a general power of attorney. The other officers and clerks are also nominated by the Treasurer; the Paymaster is liable to be displaced upon the removal or resignation of his principal, but it has not been usual to remove the inferior officers or clerks, except in cases of, misconduct. The Paymaster solicits the Lords of the Treasury for the money necessary for carrying on the services of the Navy, in such sums as he may from time to time be directed to apply for by the Commissioners of the Navy, the Transport, the Victualling, and the Sick and Hurt Boards; and the money for carrying on the payments is transferred by the Paymaster to the cashiers of the Navy and Victualling, the deputy paymaster, and the cashier of Allotments. No payments are made by the Paymaster, except the fees on the issues of money from the Exchequer, and some other contingencies, for which money is advanced to him on his application to the Treasury, in sums of 3,000l. at a time; and it has been stated to us, that such application is never made but when the balance in his hands is reduced below that sum.
THE TREASURERSHIP OF THE LATE RIGHT HON. ISAAC BARRE.
Mr. Barré
held the office of Treasurer of the Navy from the 10th of April 1782
1153
THE FIRST TREASURERSHIP OF THE RIGHT HON. H. DUNDAS, NOW LORD MELVILLE.
Lord Melville
succeeded Mr. Barré as Treasurer of the Navy; he held the office from the 19th Aug. 1782 to the 19th of April 1783, and at present stands upon the list of ex-treasurers. His final account was made up in the office of the treasurer of the navy, in the beginning of 1804; the general statement of it was then transmitted to his lordship to attest, but it has not been returned to the accountant, which prevents the account from being delivered
1154
1155
THE TREASURERSHIP OF THE RIGHT HON.CHARLES TOWNSHEND, NOW LORD BAYNING.
Lord Bayning
was appointed Treasurer on the 11th April 1783, and continued in office until the 4th Jan. 1784. The accounts of his treasurership have not yet been made up. The late Mr. A. Douglas, who was paymaster to lord Melville, acted likewise under lord B. From the examination of lord B. it appears, that, during the time he held the office of Treasurer, no part of the money issued for the service of the Navy was applied to his use or advantage. His lordship further states, he did not believe that Mr. Douglas, during the time he acted as his paymaster, derived any profit or advantage from the use or employment of the public money, except the money issued for the payment of exchequer fees. Lord B.'s balance, when he quitted office, was 131,441l. 14s. 9¼d. The balance with which lord B. is at present charged, is 3,777l. 0s. 1¼d. of that sum 493l. 1s. 6½d. have been paid to personated seamen, which it has been usual to allow the treasurers upon the final settlement of their accounts: 1,646l. 3s. 2½d. are in the hands of the sub-accountants;
1156
THE SECOND TREASURERSHIP OF LORD MELVILLE.
Lord Melville
was re-appointed on the 5th Jan. 1784, and continued in office until the 1st June 1800. In speaking of this treasurership, it will be necessary to divide it into two parts, as, from the 1st Jan. 1786, the business was conducted under the provisions of the 25th of his majesty, c. 31, which instituted a new mode of account for the office of Trearsurer. The old mode of account of course ceased on the 31st of Dec. 1785, at which time Lord M. stood charged with 275,820l. 15s. 11d. out of which sum, and others advanced to him, he has continued to make payments as an ex-treasurer. The late Mr. A. Douglas having also acted as paymaster to lord M. during- this part of his 2d treasurership, we questioned lord M. whether he had derived any profit or advantage from the use or employment of the money issued for carrying on the current service of the Navy, between the 1st of Feb. 1784 and the 31st Dec. 1785, which question his lordship objected to answering under the provisions of the 5th clause of the act by which we are constituted, and upon the ground before stated alluded to in his letter.
THE SECOND PART OF THE SECOND TREASURERSHIP OF LORD MELVILLE,
Officially entitled
"HIS ACT OF PARLIAMENT NEW ACCOUNT."
The act of the 25th of his present majesty, c. 31. for better regulating the office of the Treasurer of the Navy, directed. That the several provisions therein contained should take place on the 1st of July 1785, but they were not carried into effect till the 1st of Jan. 1786; we understand the delay was occasioned by the necessity of making some previous official arrangements. In that month, Alexander Trotter, esq. who had lately been a clerk in the Navy Pay Office, was appointed paymaster by lord M. and he states, that he acted as deputy to the treasurer in ail the duties attached to the situation, except the appointment of officers and clerks. As the directions of the act are positive, that the issues of money for Navy Services shall be made to the Bank, and that the money shall not be drawn
1157
1158
1159
However the apprehension of disclosing delicate and confidential transactions of gov. might operate with Lord M. in withholding information respecting advances to other departments, we do not perceive how that apprehension can at all account for his refusing to state, whether he derived any profit or advantage from the use or employment of money issued for the services of the Navy. If his lordship had received into his hands such monies only as were advanced by him to other departments, and had replaced them as soon as they were repaid, he could not have derived any profit or advantage from such transactions, however repugnant they Blight be to the provisions of the legislature for the safe custody of the public money. Although we were not able to ascertain what monies were paid over or advanced to Lord M. yet, independent of such advances, Mr. Trotter admits in the latter part of his examination, that, in following his lordship's instructions, or in acting in his affairs as his private agent, he had occasionally laid out for his use or benefit from 10 to 20,000l. without considering whether he was previously in advance to his lordship, or whether such advances were made from his public or private balances.—Mr. T. not only drew money from the Bank in large sums, which he deposited with his private bankers, Messrs. T. Coutts and Co. but he also prevailed with the sub-accountants to deposit the greater part of their balances with that house. One of them, indeed, the cashier of the Victualling, acquiesced with reluctance, having always before that time kept his balance at the Bank, and wishing still to keep it there; he stated to us, that it was by direction of Mr. T. he opened an account with Messrs. T. Coutts where he took
1160
1161
1162
1163
1164
1165
£
s.
d.
Amount of Sums received by Messrs. T. Coutts, by the drafts of Mr. Trotter on the Bank, and carried to the credit of his own Account
8,895,420
10
5
1166
be considered, that blending in one account official and private money transactions in the manner before described, has rendered the bringing of them together into public view unavoidable. The inspection of these accounts will afford much fuller information of the manner in which the public money has been applied than any description which it is in our power to give. We have distinguished in the accounts the sums that were received by Messrs. Coutts by Mr. T.'s drafts on the Bank. The part of the account rendered to us, entitled Mr. T.'s separate account, contains only, a few entries of money received by his drafts on the Bank; but the money so received appears distinctly on the face of the account to have, been applied to private purposes. Although the only direct proof which we have been able to obtain of public money having been carried to the credit of Mr. T.'s accounts with Messrs, Coutts is, by their having received money upon his drafts on the Bank; yet on an inspection of the accounts it will be seen, that sums of such magnitude, not received by Mr. T.'s drafts on the Bank, have been brought to his credit, as to afford strong presumption that they were part of the public money. Deposits of money, not received by drafts on the Bank, to the amount of 100,000l. and upwards on the same day, and in the course of a few days, will be met with frequently. In one instance, the 11th April 1795, the sum of one million, not received by draft on the Bank, is placed to his credit.—As a further proof of other public money, besides that received directly from the Bank, being included in the account called his own account, we subjoin a comparative statement of the sums received directly from the Bank, and the sums paid from that account to the different sub-accountants of the Navy Pay Office, and for services which we conclude to be of a public nature:
£.
s.
d.
Amount of Sums paid from the Account of Mr. Trotter with Messrs. Coutts, intituled, His own Account, to the different sub-accountants of the Navy Pay Office
11,756,804
6
6
Amount of Sums paid from the same Account for services supposed to be of a public nature; viz. "To act of Parl. account" (by which is meant the 1st part of lord M.'s 2d treasurership), and "To act of Parlt. new account") being the 2d part of that treasurership
£
6
10
£
13
4
1167
1168
1169
1170
1171
1172
1173
1174
The evil arising from the application of public money by individuals to private use, is strongly exemplified in the case of Mr.
1175
1176
1177
£
s.
d.
To lord Melville, on his several accounts as treasurer and ex-treasurer
38,742
15
4¾
To the lord Bayning, as ex-treasurer
529
11
9¾
To the late right hon. I. Barré, as ex-treasurer
404
3
0¾
£.
39,676
10
3¼
1178
1179
1180
1181
Observing in Mr. Trotter's statement, attached to his evidence of the 25th of July, that the sums of 605l. and 533l. remained in his possession, stated to have arisen from official errors, which had been notified to the navy board, we enquired into the circumstances of this transaction, that we might ascertain the nature and cause of these errors, and consider of measures for preventing them in future. In the course of our enquiry we discovered, that this transaction originated in fraud
1182
THE TREASURERSHIPS OF THE RIGHT HON. DUDLEY RYDER, NOW LORD HARROWBY; THE RIGHT HON. CHARLES BATHURST; AND THE RIGHT HON. GEORGE TIERNEY.
Lord Harrowby
held the Office from the 2d of June 1800, to the 20th of Nov. 1801; Mr. Bathurst, from the 21st of Nov. 1801, to the 2d of June 1803; Mr. Tierney, from the 3d of June 1803, to the 28th of May 1804.—We have little further to state respecting these treasurers; as we have already noticed their conduct, so far as relates to preventing the paymaster from drawing the public money from the Bank, and lodging it in the hands of a private banker, for the purpose of elucidating some parts of the detail of lord Melville's second treasurership.—It appears, that none of them derived any profit or emolument from the use of money issued for navy services; and that no part of that money was applied by any of them, to the use of any other public department.—Mr. Trotter acted as paymaster to lord Harrowby and Mr. Bathurst, and, for a short time, to Mr. Tierney; he was succeeded by Mr. Latham, who continued in office till Mr. Canning became Treasurer, when Miv Trotter was again appointed paymaster.—It is stated by Mr. Latham, that he did not withdraw from the Bank any money issued for the service of the navy, bat transferred the same from the account of the treasurer to the accounts of the respective sub-accountants; and that ha did not derive any profit or advantage from the use or employment of the public money.
The measures which we have further to propose for the better management of the business of the Navy Pay Office are but
1183
1184
CH. M. POLE, (L.S.)
EWAN LAW, (L. S.)
JOHN FORD, (L. S.)
HENRY NICHOLLS, (L. S.)
WM. MACKWORTH PRAED, (L. S.)
Office of Naval Enquiry, No. 24, Great, George-street, 13th Feb. 1805.
1185
APPENDIX TO THE TENTH REPORT OF THE COMMISSIONERS OF NAVAL ENQUIRY.
Appointed by Act 43 Geo. III.
THE OFFICE OF THE TREASURER OF HIS MAJESTY'S NAVY.
No. 1.—
Accounts of the Treasurer's balances, and the sums in the hands of the sub-accountants, from
No. 2—
The King's Warrant for increasing Mr. Barré's salary as Treasurer of the Navy to
l. a year.
No. 3.—
The Examination of Harry Harmood, esq. Paymaster to the late right hon. Isaac Barré.
No. 4.—
The Examination of George Fennell, esq. accountant to the Treasurer of the Navy.
No. 5—
The King's Warrant for in. creasing the salary of the right hon. H. Dundas as Treasurer of the Navy, to 4,000
l.
No. 6.—
Letter from Lord Viscount Melville to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, dated Wimbledon,
th of June
1186
Signed, MELVILLE.
No. 7.—
The examination of Lord Viscount Melville; taken upon oath the 5th November
31 st Dec.
31 st Dec.
1786
56,000
0
0
1794
28,758
7
9
1787
53,100
0
0
1795
30,316
16
l
1788
48,600
0
0
1796
75,413
5
0
1789
53,800
0
0
1797
58,640
14
10
1791
19,988
9
8
1798
54,140
15
0
1792
26,476
17
8
1799
54,140
15
0
1793
27,025
19
9
1187
1188
1189
1190
Signed by Lord Melville and the five commissioner.
No. 8.—
Account of the Sums received and paid, and the Balance with which Lord Melville was charged on the
st of Dec. in each Year, during his 1st ex-treasurership.
No. 9.—The Examination of Alexander Trotter, esq. Paymaster of' hit maj.'s Navy; taken upon oath, the 11th June 1804.—Q. Does the paymaster act as deputy to the treasurer of the navy in all the duties attached to the situation? A. He does, except in the appointment of officers, and clerks.—Q. By what authority does he so act? A. Under a general power of attorney.—Q. What is the salary of paymaster? A. At present 800l. per annum.—Q. When was it increased to that sum? A, About 3 or 4 years ago, to the best of my remembrance.—Q. Does the paymaster: of the navy pay or disburse any money on the public account? A. No.—Q. Has it been usual for him so to do? A. Not within my recollection, excepting in the payment of exchequer fees, which I till within this few years was in the habit of disbursing myself.—Q. Who was paymaster of the navy when the act of the 25th of the present king, c. 31. was first carried into execution, which directs, that the money is;, sued by the Exchequer shall be lodged in the Bank, and that the services for which it is drawn out should be specified? A. The late A. Douglas, esq.—Q. Did he draw the money out of the Bank and lodge it in the hands of private bankers? I do not know that he did.—Q. Did he apply the public money in any way to his own private use or advantage? A. I do not know, that he did.—Q. When did the prac-
1191
a
1192
1193
b.
c.
1194
Signed by Alex, Trotter and the 5 Commissioners.
Alterations and Additions, made by desire of this examinant, the 14lh June 1801, to the answers given by him on the
th inst.
(
a
b
c
Signed as before). Alex. Trotter.
The further examination of A, Trotter, esq.; taken upon oath, the
th June
1195
1196
1197
(
Signed as before.
Written Paper delivered in by Mr. Trotter on the 25th July,
1198
1199
1200
1201
A. TROTTER.
1202
No. 10.—
Examination of Lord Bayning, late Treasurer of the, Navy.
No. 11.—
Account of the sums received and paid, and the balance with which lord Bayning was charged on the 3lst Dec. in each year, during his ex-treasurership.
No. 12.—Accounts of the sums received and paid, and the balance with which lord Melville was charged on the 31st Dec. in each year, during his second ex-treasure rship.
No. 13.—
Letter from the right hon. George Canning, Treasurer of the Navy, to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry; dated
th July
I am, &c.
George Canning.
No. 14—
The examination of George Swaffield, esq. Cashier of the Victualling.
No. 15.—
The examination of James Slade, esq. Cashier of the Navy.
No. 16.—
The examination of John Swaffield, esq. Deputy Paymaster.
No. 17.—
The examination of John Davies, esq. Cashier of Allotments.
No. 18.—
The examination of lord Harrowhy, formerly Treasurer of the Navy; taken upon oath,
th July
1203
No. 19.—
The Examination of the tight hon. C. Bathurst, late Treasurer of the Navy; taken upon oath,
th June
1204
No. 20—
The Examination of W. A. Latham, esq. late paymaster of the navy; taken upon oath,
d June
No. 21.—
The Examination of Thomas Wilson, esq. of the Navy Pay Office; taken upon oath,
th July
1205
a
b
as before.
as before.
THOMAS WILSON.
Addition and alteration, made this 20th July 1804, by desire of thin examinant, to
1206
the answers given by him on the 18th inst.
a
b
The further examination of T. Wilson, esq. taken upon oath,
th July
as before.
T. WILSON.
No. 22—
Examination of Ed. Antrobus esq. principal acting partner in the Banking-house of Messrs. Coutts.
No. 23—
Examination of Mr. W Chapman, clerk to Messrs. Coutts.
No. 24.—
An account of the sums reccived by Messrs. Coutts at the Bank, by the drafts of Mr. Trotter, paymaster of the navy, and carried to the credit of his accounts with them, entitled, his own, and his separate accounts.
No. 25.—
The examination of Abraham Newland, esq. cashier of the Bank; taken, upon oath this 2d Aug.
1207
The further examination of A. Newland, esq. taken upon oath
th Oct.
1208
A. NEWLAND.
Alteration made this
th Oct.
by desire of this examinant, by him on
th inst.
a
No. 26.—
Account of Mr. A. Trotter, paymaster of the Nary, with Messrs. Coutts, entitled his own account.
No. 27—
Account of Mr. J. Trotter, entitled his separate account.
No. 28—
Account of Mr. A. Trotter, entitled his paymaster's account.
No. 29.—
The Examination of Mark Sprott, esq. taken upon Oath, the l6th of Nov.
1209
MARK SPROT.
No. 30.—
An Account of the balance of public money in the hands of Mr. J. Slade, cashier of the Navy, on the
st of Dec. in each year, from
No. 31.—
An Account of the balance of public money in the hands of Mr. J. Swaffield, cashier of' the Victualling, from
No. 32. —
An Account of the balance of public money in the hands of Mr. J. Swafflield, deputy Paymaster of the Navy, from
No. 33.—
An Account of the balance of public money in the hands of Mr. John Davies, cashier of allotments, from
No. 34.—
A general Statement of the annual receipts, payments, and balances of the Treasurer of the Navy, from
No. 35.—
A general Statement of the Monthly receipts, payments, and balances, from
No. 36.—
An account of the treasurer's receipts, according to the accounts of the navy board; of the assignments made an him by the different boards; and of the amount of the unassigned balance in his charge in each year, from
to
No. 37.
The examination of Sir A. Sn. Hammond, bart. comptroller of the navy.
No. 38.—
The examination of Edward Falkingham, esq. chief clerk in the Office for seaman's wages.
No. 39—
The examination of Mr. Samuel Fellicoe.
No. 40—
Letter from Mr. Canning, Treasurer of the Navy, to the Commissioners of Naval Enquiry, respecting Mr. Jellicoe's Balance, dated 25th Nov.
1210
G.CANNING,
No. 41.—
The Examination of A. Trotter, esq. on Mr. Jellicoe's Deficiency.
No. 42.—
Extent issued into the county of Hants against the Person and Property of Mr. A. Jellicoe, and the Return made thereto by the Sheriff.
No. 43—
Letter from Mr. S. Jellicoe; dated the
st Dec.
No. 44—
Account of the Debt due from Mr. A. Jellicoe to the Treasurer and Ex-treasurers of the Navy at the time of his decease.
No. 45.—
Letter from Mr. G. Fevnell, Accountant to the Treasurer of the Navy, dated
Dec.
No. 46—
The examination of Mr.G. Black, Accountant.
No. 47—
Schedule of the effects of Mr. A. Jellicoe, and the debts due to him at the time of his decease, as drawn, up by Mr. G. Black.
No. 48—
Letter written by Mr. A. Jellicoe, found in his iron chest, after his decease.
No. 49—
Mr. A. Trotter's Trust Account for the estate of the late Mr. A. Jellicoe.
No. 50.—
Statement presented by lord Melville to the lords of the Treasury, on the subject of the debt due to him from Mr. A. Jellicoe at the time of his decease.
No. 51—
Letter from lord Melville to Mr. A. Jellicoe, Deputy Paymaster of the Navy; dated
July
No. 52—
Letter of Mr. A. Jellicoe in reply; dated
July
No. 53—
Minute of the resolution of the Lords Commissioners of the treasury, on lord Melville's statement.
No. 54.—
Writ of privy seal for acquitting lord Melville of the amount of Mr. Jellicoe's Deficienc.
No. 55.—
The examination of Mr. Chapman, Clerk to Messrs. Coutts.
No. 56—
The examination of J. White, esq. solicitor to the lords of the Treasury, and his letter, dated
Jan.
No. 57—
An Account of the sums with
1211
which Mr. A. Jellicoe stood charged at the end of each mouth during the Treasurership of Mr. Barré
No. 58.
Mr. A. Jellicoe stood charged at the end of each mouth during the
No. 59.
Mr. A. Jellicoe stood charged at the end of each mouth during the Treasurership of lord Bayning.
No. 60.
Mr. A. Jellicoe stood charged at the end of each mouth during the 1st part of lord Melville's 2d Treasurership.
No. 61.
Mr. A. Jellicoe stood charged at the end of each mouth on the 2d part of lord Melville's 2d Treasurership, officially intituled his Act of Parliament New Account.
No. 62.—
An Account of the sums with which the late Mr. A. Jellicoe stood charged on account of the Treasurer of the Navy, at the end of each month, from April
No. 63.—
Ditto of the sums with which Mr. Jellicoe stood charged at the end of each month, on account of the Treasurer for the time being, and the Ex-treasurer, from April
to Sept.
No. 64.—
The examination of A. Trotyer, esq. Paymaster to lord Melville, on the subject of a fraud practised in the payment of remittance bills.
No. 65. to 70.—
Account of Home remittacne bills twice charged as paid in the account of the Treasurer of the Navy, &c.
No. 71. to 78—
The examination of A. Trotten, esq. on the subject of issues made for the service of the navy in exchequer bills, &c.
No. 79.—
Letter from the right hon. George Canning, Treasurer of the Navy, to the Commissioners of Navel Enquiry, dated Navy Pay Office, 3d Oct.
1212
G. CANNING.
We are of opinion, that the Treasurer of the Navy will satisfy the words of the Act of the 43d G. III. c. 16. by producing to the Commissioners of Naval inquiry the Accounts of his office in the shape in which they now exist; and that if the labour and the time it would require to make them out in the manner called for by the Commissioners of Enquiry, are such as to occasion any material obstruction to the business of his department, we, think the production of them in their present shape is all that can be reasonably expected of him.
(Signed) Sp. PERCIVAL.
THOS. MANNERS SUTTON,
T. JERVIS.