THE
NEW SERIES,
VOL. X.
All Communications for this Work, if forwarded to Mr. WRIGHT, No. 112, Regent-Street, or to Mr. T. C. HANSARD, Pater-noster-Row Press, will be carefully attended to; but, as an early publication of the proceedings of each Session is extremely desirable, it is respectfully requested, that such Communications may be forwarded with as little delay as possible.
Of the same Proprietors may be had, in Thirty-six Volumes,
THE
FROM THE EARLIEST PERIOD
The Editor is preparing for the Press, to be comprised in Two Volumes,
I. A GENERAL INDEX to the Parliamentary History of England from the earliest Period to the Year 1803: and
II. A GENERAL INDEX to the Parliamentary Debates from the Year 1803 to the Accession of GEORGE THE FOURTH, in 1820.
The two Volumes will form a complete Parliamentary Dictionary, or ready Book of Reference, to every recorded Proceeding of importance that may, at any time, have come before the two Houses of Parliament.
THE
FORMING A CONTINUATION OF THE WORK ENTITLED
"THE PARLIAMENTARY HISTORY OF ENGLAND,
FROM THE EARLIEST PERIOD TO THE YEAR 1803."
PUBLISHED UNDER THE SUPERINTENDENCE OF
T. C. HANSARD.
New Series;
COMMENCING WITH THE ACCESSION OF GEORGE IV.
VOL. X.
COMPRISING THE PERIOD
FROM
THE THIRD DAY OF FEBRUARY,
TO
THE TWENTY-NINTH DAY OF MARCH, 1824.
LONDON:
Printed by T. C. Hansard at the Pater-noster-Row press,
FOR BALDWIN, CRADOCK, AND JOY; J. BOOKER; LONGMAN, HURST, REES, AND CO.;
J. M. RICHARDSON; KINGSBURY AND CO.; J. HATCHARD AND SON; J. RIDGWAY
AND SONS; E. JEFFERY AND SON; RODWELL AND MARTIN; R. H. EVANS;
BUDD AND CALKIN; J. BOOTH; AND T. C. HANSARD.
1824.
TABLE OF CONTENTS
NEW SERIES
I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
III. KING'S SPEECHES.
IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
V. PETITIONS.
VI. LISTS.
I. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
Page
1824 Feb. 3. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of the Session
5
1824 Feb. 9. Recognition of the Independence of South America
105
Trade of Ireland
106
1824 Feb. 13. Sinecure Offices—King's Remembrancer
151
Tread Mill
152
1824 Feb. 19. Game Laws
224
1824 Feb. 20. Game Laws
266
1824 Feb. 25. Game Laws
444
1824 Mar. 2. Appeals—Hearing of
640
State of Ireland
641
1824 Mar. 4. Abolition of Slavery
703
Recognition of the Independence of South America
705
Bounties on Irish Linen
706
1824 Mar. 8. South America
776
1824 Mar. 9. Office of Clerk of Parliament
829
Appellate Jurisdiction
830
1824 Mar. 11. Austrian Loan Bill
871
1824 Mar. 12. Survey of Ireland
935
1824 Mar. 15. The Marquis of Lansdown's Motion for the Recognition of the Independence of South America
970
1824 Mar. 16. Amelioration of the Condition of the Slave Population in the West Indies
1046
1824 Mar. 18. Abolition of Slavery
1215
Mutiny Bill—Flogging in the Army
1216
1824 Mar. 24. Monopoly of Tea—East India Company
1385
1824 Mar. 25. Irish Tithes
1385
1824 Mar. 29. Silk Trade
1446
II. DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
1824 Feb. 3. Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of the Session
45
1824 Feb. 4. Imprisonment under the Vagrant Act
86
Address on the King's Speech at the Opening of the Session
86
1824 Feb. 6. Consuls
101
Austrian Loan
101
Spain—Foreign Policy
102
Roman Catholic Burials
103
1824 Feb. 10. Imprisonment under the Vagrant Act
106
State of Ireland
119
1824 Feb. 11. Bank of England Notes in Circulation
123
Qualification of Jurors Bill
124
Cattle III-Treatment Bill
130
Bear-Baiting
131
Legacy Duties
134
Conduct of Irish Police Officers—Case of Michael M'Can
137
1824 Feb. 12. Tread Mill before Trial
138
Artizans—Machinery—Combination Laws
141
1824 Feb. 13. Reciprocity of Duties—Shipping Interest
154
Distraining on Growing Crops in Ireland
155
Recognition of the Independence of South America
157
1824 Feb. 16. Usury Laws Repeal Bill
157
Deputy Remembrancer of the Exchequer
165
Dry Rot in Ships
166
Navy Estimates
167
Irish Clergy Residence Bill
183
1824 Feb. 17. Game Laws Amendment Bill
187
Lord Nugent's Motion on the Conduct of Ministers with regard to the Neutrality between France and Spain
190
1824 Feb. 18. County Courts Regulation Bill—Recovery of Small Debts
210
Recovery of Penalties before Magistrates
212
Bankrupt Laws
213
Criminal Judicature of the Isle of Man
215
1824 Feb. 19. Wine Duties
226
Bank of England—Balances of Public Money and Charge of Management
226
Gaol Laws Amendment Bill—Tread Mill
241
Juries Laws Consolidation Bill
247
Catholic Disabilities—Persons holding Offices in Ireland
252
1824 Feb. 20. Wool Tax—Petition for Repeal of
267
1824 Feb. 20. Coal Duties—Petitions against
270
Army Estimates
271
Navy Estimates
296
1824 Feb. 23. Coal Duties—Petitions for Repeal of
301
County Courts Bill—Recovery of Small Debts
303
The Chancellor of the Exchequer's Exposition of the Financial Situation of the Country
304
Army Estimates
366
1824 Feb. 24. Bear-Baiting
368
Tobacco Duties
369
Wool Tax
370
Silk Trade—Duties on Foreign Silk
371
Mr. John Williams's Motion on the Delays and Expenses in the Court of Chancery
372
Austrian Loan Convention
437
1824 Feb. 25. Spirits Intercourse—Petition of Scotch Distillers
445
Adaptation of the Coinage of the Realm to the Decimal Scale
445
Inquiry into the Public Revenue
449
Delays in Chancery
450
Poor-Laws
450
Weights and Measures
450
Commercial Intercourse between Great Britain and Ireland
451
Excise
451
1824 Feb. 26. Olive Guelph, styling herself Princess of Cumberland
452
Linen Trade—Bounty
452
Mr. Abercromby's Motion on the State of the Representation of Edinburgh
455
Bear-Baiting and other Cruel Sports
486
Church Rates in Ireland
496
Austrian Loan Convention
497
Postage Rates—Newspapers in the Colonies—New Post Office
501
1824 Feb. 27. Conduct of Mr. Chetwynd, a Member—Case of Charles Flint
504
Ordnance Estimates
525
Usury Laws Repeal Bill
551
1824 Mar. 1. Breach of Privilege—Mr. Abercromby's Complaint against the Lord Chancellor
571
Public Buildings in Westminster—Palaces, &c
623
Caledonian Canal
630
New Courts of Justice in Westminster Hall
632
British Museum
635
Penitentiary House at Milbank
636
1824 Mar. 2. Irish Mining Company
645
Fisheries of Scotland
645
Commitments by Magistrates
646
Exportation of British Wool
650
Excise Licences
651
Mr. Hobhouse's Motion for the Repeal of the Window Tax
652
1824 Mar. 4. Communications with France and Spain relative to the Spanish American Provinces
708
1824 Mar. 4. French Pecuniary Indemnity
721
Renewal of Offices on the Demise of the Crown
722
Poyais Emigration
727
County Courts Bill
728
1824 Mar. 5. Protestant Church in Ireland—Tithe Composition
729
Silk Trade
731
Exportation of Wool—Petition from Norwich against
751
Recognition of the Independence of South America
752
Gaol Act Amendment Bill—Tread Mill
755
Mutiny Bill
766
1824 Mar. 8. Silk—Petitions against the Importation of Manufactured
780
Sugar Duties
782
Silk Trade
800
1824 Mar. 9. Education of Catholic Poor in Ireland—Petition of Catholic Bishops
837
Catholic Charities
847
Silk Trade
849
Irish Tithes Composition Bill
851
Salary of the Clerk of the Ordnance
861
Barrack Department
861
Cattle III-Treatment Bill
865
1824 Mar. 10. Silk Trade
869
Survey and Valuation of Ireland
870
1824 Mar. 11. Lord Althorp's Motion respecting Ribbon Men and Ribbon Lodges
885
Game Laws Amendment Bill
902
Welch Judicature Bill
926
Mutiny Bill—Flogging in the Army
927
1824 Mar. 12. Remission of Taxation, and Sinking Fund—Petition from Westminster respecting
936
Irish Linen Trade—Bounties
943
Irish Bankers
944
Annual Duties Bill—Foreign Brandies
945
Civil Establishment of Dominica
953
Civil Establishment of Upper Canada
955
Civil Establishment of Sierra Leone
962
Settlements on the Gold Coast
962
Colonial Services
963
Propagation of the Gospel in the Colonies
964
1824 Mar. 15. Distilleries—Petition of Rectifiers to convert Rum into Gin
1009
Abolition of Slavery
1011
Mr. Maberly's Motion respecting the Mode of Collecting the the Beer and Malt Duties separately
1013
Mutiny Bill—Corporal Punishment in the Army
1031
Irish Protestant Charter Schools
1043
1824 Mar. 16. Consolidation of the Criminal Law of England
1062
Amelioration of the Condition of the Slave Population in the West Indies
1091
1824 Mar. 17. Petition of Henry Dundas Perrott, complaining of III-Treatment from the Admiralty Board
1198
1824 Mar. 17. Reform of Parliament—Petition of Mr. Worgman suggesting a Plan
1206
Stock Purse of the Foot Guards
1209
1824 Mar. 18. Irish Linen Trade—Bounties
1216
Impressment of Seamen—Petition of G. W. Butler
1220
Silk Trade—London Petition against the Reduction of the Duty
1221
Lord John Russell's Motion respecting the Evacuation of Spain by the French Army
1232
Prisons—Select Committee on the Laws relating to
1283
Public Buildings in Westminster
1283
1824 Mar. 19. Silk Trade
1285
Silk Trade Bill
1290
Irish Miscellaneous Estimates
1293
1824 Mar. 22. Linen Bounties
1309
Wine Duties
1310
Silk Trade
1312
1824 Mar. 23. Game Laws Amendment Bill
1329
Newfoundland Fisheries Bill
1331
Abolition of Slavery
1331
Alien Bill
1332
Westminster Hall—New Courts
1381
1824 Mar. 25. Recognition of the Independence of the South American States
1393
Assessed Taxes—Repeal of the
1395
Turnpike Road Bill
1397
Sir John Newport's Motion respecting Education in Ireland
1399
Labourers' Wages
1413
Game Laws Amendment Bill
1415
1824 Mar. 26. Wool—Petition against the Exportation of British
1423
Slave Trade Piracy Bill
1424
Compensation to Officers in Courts of Justice, for losses in consequence of the County Courts Bill
1425
County Courts Bill
1437
Wool Duties
1442
1824 Mar. 29. Wool Duties
1447
Coal Duties
1448
Burials in Ireland Bill
1453
Milton's Manuscript
1465
British Museum
1466
Education of the Poor in Ireland
1476
ADDENDUM.—Welsh Judicature Bill
1484
III. KING'S SPEECHES.
1824 Feb. 3. KING'S SPEECH on Opening the Session
1
IV. PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
1824 Mar. 4. Communications with France and Spain relating to the Spanish American Provinces
708
1824 Mar. 16. Draught of an Order in Council for improving the Condition of the Slaves in Trinidad
1064
V. PETITIONS.
1824 Feb. 10. PETITION of William Lotcho, respecting his Imprisonment under the Vagrant Act
116
1824 Mar. 2.PETITION of the Inhabitants of St. Anne's, Westminster, for the Repeal of the Window Tax
653
1824 Mar. 9. PETITION of Catholic Bishops and Clergy, respecting the Education of the Catholic Poor in Ireland
843
1824 Mar. 12. PETITION of the Inhabitants of Westminster for the Remission of Taxes
941
1824 Mar. 17. PETITION of Mr. Worgman, suggesting a Plan for a Reform of Parliament
1207
1824 Mar. 23. PETITION of Mr. William Cobbett against the Game Laws Amendment Bill
1329
VI. LISTS.
1824 Feb. 6. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Sir J. Newport's Motion for Papers relating to Roman Catholic Burials
105
1824 Feb. 17. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Lord Nugent's Motion for Papers relating to the Conduct of Ministers in the War between France and Spain
209
1824 Feb. 18. LIST of The Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Curwen's Motion for Papers relating to the Criminal Judicature of the Isle of Man
224
1824 Feb. 19. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Grattan's Motion respecting Catholic Disabilities
266
1824 Feb. 20. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hume's Motion against any increase of the Standing Army
296
1824 Feb. 26. LIST of the Majority, and also of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Abercromby's Motion on the State of the Representation of Edinburgh
485
1824 Feb. 27. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hume's Motion for reducing the Grant for the Civil Establishment of the Ordnance
535
LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hume's Motion for reducing the Grant for the Ordnance Barrack Department
549
1824 Mar. 1. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Abercromby's Complaint against the Lord Chancellor
622
1824 Mar. 2. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hobhouse's Motion for the Repeal of the Window Tax
702
1824 Mar. 5. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hume's Motion respecting Corporal Punishment in the Army
776
1824 Mar. 11. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Welsh Judicature Bill
927
1824 Mar. 12. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hume's Motion for reducing the Grant for Colonial Services
964
LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Grant for the Propagation of the Gospel in the Colonies
970
1824 Mar. 15. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Maberly's Motion respecting the Mode of collecting the Beer and Malt Duties separately
1030
LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hume's Motion for prohibiting Corporal Punishment in the Army
1039
LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hume's Motion for reducing the Grant for the Irish Protestant Charter Schools
1046
1824 Mar. 19. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on Mr. Hume's Motion for reducing the Grant for the Expense of publishing Proclamations in the Dublin Gazette and other Newspapers
1306
1824 Mar. 23. LIST of the Minority, in the House of Commons, on the Alien Bill
1376
During the Fifth Session of the Seventh Parliament of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, appointed to meet at Westminster, the Third Day of February 1824, in the Fifth Year of the Reign of His Majesty King GEORGE the Fourth
1824.
1
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, February 3, 1824.
THE KING'S SPEECH ON OPENING THE
This day the Session was opened by Commission. The Commissioners were, the archbishop of Canterbury, lord chancellor Eldon, and the earls of Westmorland, Harrowby and Shaftesbury. The usher of the black rod having been ordered to require the attendance of the House of Commons, he withdrew. In a few minutes after, the Speaker, accompanied by several members, having appeared at the bar, the Lord Chancellor opened the Session with the following Speech to both Houses:
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"We are commanded by his majesty to express to you his majesty's deep regret, that, in consequence of indisposition, he is prevented from meeting you in parliament upon the present occasion.
"It would have been a peculiar satisfaction to his majesty, to be enabled in person, to congratulate you on the prosperous condition of the country.
"Trade and commerce are extending themselves both at home and abroad.
"An increasing activity pervades almost every branch of manufacture.
"The growth of the revenue is such as not only to sustain public credit, and to prove the unimpaired productiveness of our resources, but (what is yet more gratifying to his majesty's feelings) to evince
2
"Agriculture is recovering from the depression under which it laboured; and, by the steady operation of natural causes, is gradually re-assuming the station to which its importance entitles it, among the great interests of the nation.
"At no former period has there prevailed throughout all classes of the community in this island, a more cheerful spirit of order, or a more just sense of the advantages which, under the blessing of Providence, they enjoy.
"In Ireland, which has for some time past been the subject of his majesty's particular solicitude, there are many indications of amendment, and his majesty relies upon your continued endeavours to secure the welfare and happiness of that part of the United Kingdom.
"His majesty has commanded us further to inform you, that he has every reason to believe that the progress of our internal prosperity and improvement will not be disturbed by any interruption of tranquillity abroad.
"His majesty continues to receive from the powers his allies, and generally from all princes and states, assurances of their earnest desire to maintain and cultivate the relations of friendship with his majesty; and nothing is omitted oh his majesty's part, as well to preserve general
3
"The negotiations which have been so long carried on through his majesty's ambassador at Constantinople, for the arrangement of differences between Russia and the Ottoman Porte are, as his majesty flatters himself, drawing near to a favourable termination.
"A Convention has been concluded between his majesty and the emperor of Austria, for the settlement of the pecuniary claims of the country upon the court of Vienna.
"His majesty has directed, that a copy of this Convention shall be laid before you, and he relies on your assistance for the execution of some of its provisions.
"Anxiously as his majesty deprecated the commencement of the war in Spain, he is every day more satisfied that, in the strict neutrality which he determined to observe in that contest (and which you so cordially approved), he best consulted the true interests of his people.
"With respect to the provinces of America which have declared their separation from Spain, his majesty's conduct has been open and consistent, and his opinions have been at all times frankly avowed to Spain and to other powers.
"His majesty has appointed consuls to reside at the principal ports and places of those provinces, for the protection of the trade of his subjects.
"As to any further measures, his majesty has reserved to himself an unfettered discretion, to be exercised as the circumstances of those countries, and the interests of his own people, may appear to his majesty to require.
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"His majesty has directed us to inform you that the Estimates for the year are prepared, and shall be forthwith laid before you.
"The numerous points at which, under present circumstances, his majesty's naval force is necessarily distributed, and the
4
"His majesty has, however, the gratification of believing, that, notwithstanding the increase of expense incident to these augmentations, it will still be in yourpower, after providing for the services of, the year, to make arrangements, in some I parts of our system of taxation, which may afford relief to certain important branches of the national industry.
"My Lords and Gentlemen,
"His majesty has commanded us to acquaint you, that he has not been inattentive to the desire expressed by the House of Commons in the last session of Parliament, that means should be devised for ameliorating the condition of the negro slaves in the West Indies.
"His majesty has directed the necessary information relating to this subject to be laid before you.
"His majesty is confident that you will afford your best attention and assistance to any proposition which may be submitted to you, for promoting the moral improvement of the negroes, by an extended plan of religious instruction, and by such other measures as may gradually conduce to the same end.
"But his majesty earnestly recommends to you to treat this whole subject with the calmness and discretion which it demands.
"It is a subject perplexed with difficulties, which no sudden effort can disentangle.
"To excite exaggerated expectations in those who are the objects of your benevolence, would be as fatal to their welfare as to that of their employers.
"And his majesty assures himself you will bear in mind, that, where the correction of a long-standing and complicated system, in which the fortunes and the safety of large classes of his majesty's subjects are involved, that course of proceeding is alone likely to attain practical good, and to avoid aggravation of evil, in
5
The Commons then withdrew. After which, the Speech being again react by the Lord Chancellor, and also by the clerk at the table,
Earl Somers
rose to move an Address of thanks to his majesty, in answer to the Speech from the throne. The noble earl expressed his conviction, that every member of the House would share with him in the satisfaction he felt at the state of public prosperity which prevailed on their present meeting, as described in his majesty's Speech. The recollection of this state of things, compared with that from which the country had recently recovered, must be most gratifying to their lordships' minds. This pleasing subject of congratulation was, however, accompanied by one circumstance which all their lordships would concur with him in deeply regretting: he meant the lamented indisposition of his majesty, which had prevented him from opening the session in person. The expression of their lordships' regret would on this occasion be felt to be the more particularly called for, when they considered the earnest terms in which the Speech described the peculiar satisfaction his majesty would have experienced, had he been enabled to congratulate their lordships in person on the prosperous condition of the country. He was certain, that on this topic their lordships would not neglect to avail themselves of the opportunity which the address afforded, of expressing to his majesty their sentiments of attachment and gratitude.—He hoped he should be excused if he now recalled to their lordships' recollection what had been the situation of, and the difficulty and peril in which the country had been placed, and if he also reminded them of the short period which had been required, since the conclusion of the peace, to enable it to recover from its embarrassments. The country had been involved in a tremendous conflict with a people in a state of revolution, with a new republic naturally of great power, but which had acquired an immense additional force from the proclamation of the liberty on which it was supposed to be founded, though that pretended liberty was soon found to be the worst of tyrannies. Under all the circumstances of the principles adopted by France, and the obstinacy with which
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11
Viscount Lorton
said:—My lords, it is with extreme diffidence, but at the same time with very sincere satisfaction, that I rise to second the Address so ably moved by the noble earl. The several topics in his majesty's most gracious speech, are truly of an exhilarating nature, and such 88 to demand our warmest gratitude. The flourishing state of our finances, and the activity so apparent in the various branches of our extensive manufactures, and all our commercial pursuits, together with the improvement in our agricultural concerns, are subjects of high consideration, and sufficient to authorize the most sanguine hopes and expectations, that all the difficulties which naturally followed the late most arduous and successful war, have been happily brought to a termination, and that the time has at length arrived for congratulating your lordships and the country upon that glorious era which has been so impatiently looked for.—Thus, my lords, we see in our domestic; affairs, all that is prosperous; and if we take a view of our foreign relations, we: have as much reason to be satisfied. But, my lords, these subjects have been so well animadverted upon by the noble earl, that it becomes unnecessary far me to occupy your lordships' time with what must be a repetition.
12
imperium in imperio
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14
15
The Marquis of Lansdown
began by expressing his entire concurrence in the congratulations contained in the address from the throne on the prosperous state of the country. It was, he observed, a great satisfaction to him to find that an improvement had taken place in our trade and commerce; but it was a still greater one to perceive that that improvement had been the result of the very excellent regulations which had recently been adopted with respect to both. He looked with the greater pleasure upon these results, which had been dictated by the voice of reason, because he was one of those who never desponded of the power of the country to rescue herself from her difficulties, if her resources were properly directed, and her commerce relieved from many of the absurd restraints under which it had long laboured. He now, therefore, saw with unmixed satisfaction, the adoption of a more liberal commercial policy, producing its natural consequences—the improvement of our trade, and of course the increase in our financial resources. In this view of our situation, he agreed with the noble mover in the two-fold cause of congratulation; the first, that the in-
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l
s
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The Earl of Liverpool
said, that after the very able manner in which the address had been moved by his noble friend behind him, and seconded by his other noble friend, he did not think he should have been called upon to offer any observations to their lordships upon the present occasion. The noble marquis having, however, thought it right to touch upon, and advert to, the leading points in his majesty's Speech, he should be sorry that the House should come to a vote, and their lordships separate, without his offering a few observations in answer to what had been stated. He was the more anxious to do this lest his silence should
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de jure
de facto
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30
Lord Holland
claimed the indulgence of their lordships, for the short time he might detain them in discussing a few of the topics of the royal speech, to which he felt it necessary, after what had fallen from the noble lords who had preceded him, to advert. He felt it necessary to express his own conviction, that the general tone, and temper, and spirit of the address were not such, as, in the present state of Europe, ought to be adopted. But, their lordships would allow him to notice, in the first place, one part of that address in which he had the pleasure to say he perfectly concurred; and that was, the portion that related to the present improved state of the country. He was most happy and ready to acknowledge, that the internal condition of the country was much more flourishing than it had been at any former period within his recollection. He was ready to acknowledge also, that this prosperity had been, in some measure, owing to the wisdom and the firmness of parliament; and he was willing even to confess that, as the noble earl had stated, it was mainly attributable to the
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magistratuum nomina
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"O peers of England, shameful is this league!
Fatal this contract, cancelling your fame;
Blotting your names from books of memory;
Razing the characters of your renown,
Reversing monuments of conquered France;
Undoing all, as all had never been!"
45
Earl Darnley
pressed upon the House the necessity of taking into its earliest consideration the state of Ireland. The evils that afflicted that unhappy country must be probed to the bottom. They were of a magnitude to allow of no longer delay. He therefore took that opportunity of stating, that on a very early day, he should bring the subject under the consideration of that House.
The Address was agreed to,
nem. diss
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 3, 1824
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT
The Speaker having reported the Speech of the Lords Commissioners, and read it to the House,
Mr. Rowland Hill
rose to move an ad-
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47
Mr. James Daly
rose to second the Address. He said, that although he considered himself inadequate to handle the
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53
Mr. Brougham
said, that he rose thus early to press himself upon the attention of the House, chiefly in consequence of the observations which had fallen from the hon. member who had so eloquently seconded the motion for the address. With respect to the Speech itself, he was in the same situation in which he believed the great majority of the members of that House found themselves on the present night, when they had heard for the first time of the topics of the speech, save what they had gleaned by hearsay in the morning, through the various channels of communication open to them; partly, indeed, through the English newspapers, partly, also, through the foreign; for through the one, as through the other, they had anticipations of, he believed, equal accuracy. He should therefore wish, considering the great importance of the occasion, the greater importance of the crisis, and the magnitude of the topics which such a speech must necessarily embrace—he could wish, he said, on this occasion, and now more than on any other within his memory, to be allowed to recur to the good old established practice of consideration before they discussed the Speech from the Throne, and not to be driven prematurely, and in a state of comparative ignorance, to do that which, in whatever way it could be view-
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only
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de jure
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Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he rose with some degree of diffidence, because he had not previously intended to present himself to the Home immediately after the hon. and learned gentleman, in consequence of the impression created by a rumour which he had heard, namely, that
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corpus imperii
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pendant
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ad hominem
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parlance
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Mr. Bright
protested against being understood to concur in the system of policy which had been adopted with respect to our West-India Colonies.
Mr. Canning
said, that the language of the Speech from the Throne was, of course, to be understood as comprehending the sentiments of ministers on that subject, and that the whole question would be open to discussion at a future opportunity.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that as the hon. and learned gentleman opposite had inferred, from a part of the Speech from the Throne, that measures were recommended introductory to the admission of the Catholic claims, he was anxious not to
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Mr. Hume
expressed his regret at hearing the observations which had fallen from the right hon. Secretary opposite, with respect to that unfortunate country, Ireland. He had, in effect, declared, that the same ruinous system of policy which had so long distracted, and divided Ireland, was still to be persisted in. This was a lamentable declaration, on the part of ministers, in whom that House was called upon to place is confidence. He complained that there was no distinct statement in the Speech from the Throne as to what taxes were to be taken off, and what amount of relief was to be afforded to the country. The Speech was as lame in its composition, as it was possible for any public document to be. They were told, that arrangements had been made for that purpose, but there was no mention of any thing to lead them to conjecture what class would have the immediate advantage of the intended relief. The fears of the country ought to be instantly assuaged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by stating what taxes would be taken off. Not a moment should be lost in giving the House and the country proper satisfaction upon this part of the Speech. His object in rising was merely to protest against its being understood, that because they were silent, they felt no disapprobation whatever.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that it was his intention at a very early period of the session, to lay before the House the view which his majesty's ministers had taken of the state of the finances, and of the course of measures which they thought it advisable to adopt for the future. He therefore thought, that under these circumstances, neither the hon. gentleman, nor the House would consider that he was wanting in proper respect, if he declined entering at present into any specific statement of the measures which it was his intention so shortly to submit, and which he trusted would
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The Address was agreed to
nem. con
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 4, 1824
VAGRANT ACT.]
Mr. Littleton
said, that he was requested by his hon. friend, the member for Stafford (Mr. Chetwynd), to move for certain papers which were intended to show what had been the operation of the Vagrant act, which had been passed last session. That act had been the object of much clamour, which arose from the said act having been misunderstood. By obtaining the passing of that act, his hon. friend had saved the counties of England and Wales the sum of 100,000
l.
ADDRESS ON THE KING'S SPEECH AT THE OPENING OF THE SESSION.]
Mr. Rowland Hill having brought up the report of the Address in answer to the King's Speech,
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that with respect to that most important part of the Speech from the Throne which related to foreign affairs, he rose to protest against it being supposed that he, as an independent member of parliament, had concurred in the least degree in the Address. If he could have agreed to that address, he would have considered that he had disgraced himself—he would consider himself unworthy the constituents he had the
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Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that he should feel happy to give to the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, or to any member of that House, every information in his power to give, which he could with safety disclose. He should confine himself simply to the questions put by the hon. member: and, first, with respect to the independence of South America, the hon. gentleman complained, that he had not last night entered more minutely into details; and here he must say, that the hon. gentleman seemed to have confounded a statement of principles with a statement of facts. The part of his speech to which the hon. gentleman alluded, had been in reply to that part of the speech of the hon. and learned member which related to South America. What he had said last night respecting the relative international situation of a mother country and her colonies was this—that in principle, a mother country had a right, if she thought she had the power, to endeavour to recover possession of any colonies, which had, by any effort of their own, thrown off her dominion; and that no other country in amity with her, would, upon the naked principle, be justified in intercepting her efforts, or interfering, in the first instance, to endeavour to prevent
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bonâ fide,
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Mr. Western
expressed his surprise at the declaration of the right hon. gentleman, that, if he were asked, whether the French army ought to evacuate Spain tomorrow, his answer would be no. Such a declaration opened the door to other powers to prolong the continuance of a daring aggression upon the rights of an independent state, according to their notions of the indefinite duration of motives of humanity. It was his intention, last evening, to have moved an amendment to the address, had not his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Brougham) anticipated what he had to say, in the able and eloquent speech which he had made on the occasion. He was decidedly opposed to the policy of the present cabinet respecting our foreign relations, founded as it was upon a determination to preserve peace at all events. He appreciated the value of peace as much as any man could do; but still he could not go the length of the right hon. secretary, in looking calmly upon aggressions like that of France against Spain, and in considering the infringement of the right of an independent nation to regulate its own concerns, as a matter of little importance to the interest and security of the British empire. Such an interference with the internal policy of an independent state, as it had been our misfortune recently to witness, would have called forth the strong reprobation and decided opposition of our sturdy ancestors; and he, for one could see no reason why we should abandon the heroic policy which they had bravely pursued at every hazard, in various periods of our history. The principles which the Holy Alliance had avowed on different occasions, and particularly in the state papers which they had sent forth from Laybach, had opened the eyes of every man in the country, except his majesty's ministers, to the infamous nature of their designs. It would be in the recollection of the House, that when the
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Colonel Palmer
said, that he rose under the strongest feelings of shame and indignation, to protest against the conduct of his majesty's government: he had not opposed the address against the general sense of the House, but being convinced that not only Europe, but the world at large, had never yet been reduced to such a state of actual and prospective misery as at the present moment, and that such state was to be imputed solely to the conduct of the British government, he considered it to be a duty to his country, as a member of that House, to declare his opinion upon the subject. If it were true, as the ministers had told them, both in
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Mr. Hume
said, that be merely rose for the purpose of preventing a misconception from prevailing with the public, in consequence of what had fallen that evening from the right hon. secretary. He had himself received information from the Ionian Islands, fully corroborating that which had just been stated to the House by the hon. member for Westminster. A letter, which he had received from Ithaca, led him to believe, that the statement of the right hon. secretary was far from cor-
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Sir T. Lethbridge
said, he should not have addressed the House on the present occasion, had it not been for the allusion which had been made by the hon. colonel to an expression which he had used in the course of the preceding session. He was well aware of the observation he had then made, when speaking of the situation of the landed interest. He certainly had said, that he considered it the wisest course if the country were in danger, to look that danger in the face, and to meet it resolutely and manfully. He had felt as strongly as any person in the House or out of it could feel, the severe distress that pressed on the landed interest; and he was happy to find, that a great change for the better had taken place in the situation of that important class of society. He entirely approved of what was said in the Speech from the throne on that subject. It was pleasing to him to observe that a considerable amendment had taken place in the
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Mr. W. Smith
said, he could not let this opportunity pass without expressing his most anxious hope and wish, that no negotiation for the termination of the differences between Russia and the Porte might be successful, which did not leave the Greeks in a better situation than that in which it found them. He regretted that the situation of the right hon. secretary did not permit him to do that which he was sure would have been consistent with his inclination; namely, to give an assurance to the House, that this country would not be a party to any arrangement which did not protect the Greeks from the barbarous revenue of one power, and the insatiable ambition of the other.
The address was then agreed to,
nem. Con.
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 6, 1824
CONSULS.]
Mr. Hume
asked the right hon. secretary for foreign affairs, when he intended to effect his long promised reform, respecting British Consuls abroad?
Mr. Canning
replied, that he would submit a motion on the subject to which the hon. member alluded, during the present session, and at no distant period. In the mean time, he might perhaps remove the hon. gentleman's uneasiness on one particular point, by telling him that he had already reduced the consular salaries.
Mr. Hume
said, that it was not so much the amount of the salaries, as the manner in which they were paid, that he objected to. He disliked the system of consular charges upon goods imported.
AUSTRIAN LOAN.]
Mr. James
begged to direct the attention of the right hon. secretary, for a few moments, to the subject of the Austrian Loan. When the right hon. gentlemen laid on the table a copy of a convention entered into between the Emperor of Austria and his Britannic Majesty, respecting the settlement of the Austrian Loan, he fully expected that it was the intention of the right hon. gentleman merely to submit that document to the House for its sanction. But he had since ascertained, to his great surprise, that the agreement had actually been ratified by both the contracting parties. He wished the right hon. gentleman to answer this question—whether he did not think that he had acted illegally and unconstitutionally, in advising his majesty to agree to that convention without consulting the House? [A laugh]. That might, perhaps, appear to be a very radical view of the case; but he felt it his duty to state, that he conceived the right hon. secretary to have assumed a power which even Mr. Pitt, in the plenitude of his authority, had never dared to assume.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he would give the hon. member the answer which he required. The hon. member had asked whether he (Mr. C.) did not think that he had acted illegally and unconstitutionally in regard to the convention, a copy of which had been laid upon the table. The answer was "decidedly not." If the hon. member thought otherwise he was of course at liberty to bring the subject before the House; but then he hoped that the hon. member would give notice of his
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Mr. James
said, that he was not compelled to give a notice, and as it was not likely that any business would come before the House that evening, he thought the matter might as well be discussed at that time. He repeated that he considered the conduct of the right hon. secretary illegal. If ministers had the right to give up the claim of the people of England to a large sum of money justly due to them, without consulting the House of Commons, then,
pari ratione,
SPAIN—FOREIGN POLICY.]
Lord Nugent
observed, that since the House had, I by agreeing to the address to his majesty, I sanctioned the policy which government had adopted with regard to Spain, he thought they ought to be put in possession of the means of judging how far that policy had been fairly carried into effect. For that purpose, he considered that the production of some papers was necessary; namely, copies of all the correspondence which had taken place between this government and sir William A'Court during the period intervening between the entrance of the French troops into Spain, and the surrender of Cadiz; and also copies of all communications made by the Spanish Government to sir William A'Court, during the same period, with his answers. He wished to know whether the right hon. secretary intended to lay those papers before the House, or whether he would consent to their production.
Mr. Canning
replied, that he did not intend to lay the papers alluded to upon the table, and that his vote, if they were moved for, must depend upon the case which the noble lord might make out for their production.
Lord Nugent
then gave notice, that on Thursday next he would submit a motion on the conduct of ministers with respect
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ROMAN CATHOLIC BURIALS.]
Sir John Newport
Mr. Goulburn
said, he was always loth to appear to withhold information; but the house would be aware that there might be circumstances under which disclosure could only tend to do mischief. He relied upon the candour of the right hon. baronet in giving credit to him (Mr. G.) for sincerity, when he stated his belief, that the papers in question were likely to revive disputes, without forwarding the object which the right hon. baronet had in view. The right hon. baronet wished to repeal the statute of the 9th William III., which applied to burials in the church yards attached to decayed monasteries. He said nothing upon the main question, whether the statute ought to be repealed, or whether it ought not; but it was an object which could no way be aided by the production of the papers in the possession of the lord lieutenant; while their publication would certainly revive differences which were now in a way to be forgotten.
Sir John Newport
, since the matter was referred to his candour, thought it due to public justice, and to the people of Ireland, that the papers should be produced. If there had been imprudences committed, let them he upon those who Ought to bear them, namely, that part of the episcopal and ecclesiastical body in Ireland, which had attempted to strip the people of the right of burial according to the forms of their religion. His object was not that which the right hon. secretary had stated. He wished certainly to repeal the statute, the 9th William III.; but he wished also to secure the right of burial, generally, according to the forms of their religion, to the Catholics and Dissenters from the Established Church of Ireland. When it was considered, that this question was of all others the most calculated to excite public feeling, and that six-tenths of the Irish population
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Mr. Grattan
thought it would be better to postpone the question, and give a regular notice. The gentlemen on his side the house were taken by surprise, not having conceived that the papers would be refused. The question was one, as he viewed it, of the highest importance to Ireland. If it was not soon put at rest, there would be no burial without an affray.
Mr. Abercromby
said, that of all the frightful questions which had been mooted in Ireland, this was decidedly the most terrific. He so far went along with the right hon. Secretary for Ireland, that if he thought the question likely to be settled satisfactorily, he would not call for the production of papers which contained an inflamed view, perhaps, of past disputes; but then, so far from seeing any disposition on the part of government to take measures of itself for putting the difference at rest, he understood the right hon. Secretary to suggest, that what had passed had set it at rest already.
Mr. Goulburn
said, that he was misunderstood by the hon. and learned gentleman. He had spoken only of particular differences as in a way to be set at rest; not of the general question.
Mr. Abercromby
said, that the right hon. gentleman still stated no intention on the part of government to take measures. Under such circumstances, the house was bound to proceed itself, and consequently to call for the fullest information. The vital importance of the question was admitted. There were doubts upon it in every way: doubts as to the law; doubts as to the practice. A specific course by parliament was necessary; and he therefore should support the motion for the production of documents.
Mr. Peel
thought it would be well to separate the general question, of burial, from the immediate question before the house, namely, the production of papers. Upon the general question he should reserve his opinion; but he thought that the papers ought not to be produced.
Mr. Calcraft
supported the motion. The documents in question were not private; and the only difference was, whether members should obtain them personally, or whether they should come regularly before the House.
The House then divided: For producing the papers, 39.—Against it, 56.
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List of the Minority.
Abercromby, hon. J.
James, W.
Althorp, vis.
Lamb, hon. G.
Baring, H.
Lushington, S.
Benyon, B.
Maberly, J.
Bernal, R.
Mackintosh, sir J.
Birch, J.
Nugent, lord
Buxton, T. F.
Ord, W.
Coffin, sir I.
Prendergast, G.
Crompton, S.
Robinson, sir G.
Curwen, J. C.
Russell, lord J.
Davies, T.
Robertson, Alex.
Duncannon, vis.
Staunton, sir G.
Ellice, E.
Tennyson, C.
Fleming, J.
Tierney, G.
Grattan J.
Wilkins, Walter
Grenfell, P.
Williams, John
Gordon, R.
Wood, Matthew
Haldimand, W.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Hamilton, lord A.
TELLERS.
Hume, J.
Calcraft, J.
Hutchinson, hon. C. H.
Newport, sir J.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, February 9, 1824
SOUTH AMERICA.]
The Marquis of Lansdown
wished to say a few words upon a subject, to which their lordships' attention had been drawn some days ago by his Majesty's Speech: he meant that part of the Speech which alluded to the independent provinces of South America. It was by no means his wish to run any race with his Majesty's ministers on this question; and if it appeared to be their intention to take that step which good policy seemed to require, namely, the recognition of the provinces which had separated themselves from Spain, he would be found most anxious to afford every facility for that purpose; but being impressed with the great importance of the independence of these provinces to the commercial interests of this country, he must deprecate any thing like unnecessary delay. With the view, however, which he had taken of this question, he could not now venture to make any motion for promoting the important object to which he had referred; but, calculating on what he had heard, not so much in their lordships' House as elsewhere, that a communication had been made to the government of Spain, an answer to which might in a short time be expected, and also that some communication, would, probably, soon be received from the consuls who had been sent out from this country to South America, he thought it could not be long before he should feel himself at
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IRISH TRADE.]
The Marquis of Lansdown
stated, that he wished to move for copies of two papers, the first of which was calculated to show the state of the intercourse between this country and Ireland, with respect to the cotton trade, and the increased intercourse, notwithstanding the distress which had prevailed in Ireland. He meant to move for an account of the cotton goods imported into, and exported from Ireland, between the 10th July, 1822, and 22nd February, 1823. The other paper would exhibit the extraordinary effect which had been produced by the reduction of the duty on spirits, and to which he wished to call the attention of all those who doubted the possibility of improving the revenue by taking off taxes. The account he meant to move for was, for the quantity of spirits which had paid duty between the 10th Oct. 1822, and the 11th February, 1823; and he was informed that it would be found that the sum paid in the last quarter of the account, at only two shillings per gallon, exceeded that which had been paid during the same quarter of the preceding year, when the duty was five shillings. Thus the effect of taking off three shillings per gallon of duty on spirits, had been not only to increase the consumption, but to produce an augmentation of the revenue. The noble marquis concluded by moving for the accounts he had described, which were ordered.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 10, 1824
IMPRISONMENT UNDER THE VAGRANT ACT.]
Mr. Hume
said, that he had a
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Mr. Dawson
declared his intention of not replying at present to the arguments which the hon. member had urged against the vagrant act. That act would expire in the course of the year, and on the motion to renew it, if any such were made, its merits and demerits would be fairly taken into consideration. He had inquired into the circumstances of this case, and he could assure the House that the petitioner had no hardship to complain of. It appeared that he was going to his home at a very late hour in the night, when he met with the woman in question, who was well known as a common prostitute. At the time the watchman caught them, they were guilty of as open an exposure of their persons as could possibly be imagined. The watchman deposed to the facts:
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Mr. Littleton
rose to caution the House against attributing to his hon. friend, the member for Stafford (Mr. Chetwynd), who had framed the vagrant act, any harshness which the magistrates had shown in carrying it into execution. The object of his hon. friend had been to mitigate the severity of the former vagrant act; and he was sure that any gentleman who would turn his attention to the subject, would see that it was considerably mitigated. Formerly, the magistrates had the power of sentencing to transportation for seven years; at present, they could not sentence to more than two years' imprisonment. Formerly, whipping could be inflicted by the order of one magistrate; now, it could not be inflicted, except by an order of a bench of magistrates at the quarter sessions. He then proceeded to defend the principle of the vagrant act, and to request hon. gentlemen to withhold their attacks upon it until his hon. friend, the member for Stafford, who was now absent from indisposition, was present to answer them.
Mr. Secretary Peel
observed, that the hon. member for Aberdeen had adverted to a great many subjects, the importance of which he did not mean to undervalue; but he was sorry, on account of their importance, that he should have introduced them when presenting a petition, without giving a previous intimation to those who might have afforded some explanation, if the facts had been clearly stated to them. The communication of the hon. gentleman to him (Mr. Peel) had rather misled him than otherwise. He certainly had placed the petition in his hands, and had stated that he was going to present it; but he did not say that he intended to comment on the conduct of the magistrates, or to introduce any observations with reference to the home department. This individual had never sent any petition, praying for a remission of his sen-
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sine quá non,
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primá facie
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Mr. Hume
, in rising to move that the petition be laid on the table and printed, wished to make a few observations on
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Mr. Peel
had never meant to say, that the petitioner's was an accidental exposure. There were some exposures which might be accidental: but, he thought, assuming the guilt of the petitioner—[Mr. Hume—"Assuming the guilt!"]—Yes, the hon. gentleman had assumed the petitioner's innocence on his own allegation. Now, assuming his guilt, he could not think he had been hardly dealt with.
Ordered to be printed.
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STATE OF IRELAND.]
Lord Althorp
said, that perhaps some apology would be required of him, for calling the notice of parliament to a portion of the empire with which he had no connexion whatever. But he thought he had an opportunity of doing some good, by seriously applying himself to the consideration of the state of Ireland; and he felt that it was as much the business and the duty of English as of Irish members of parliament to use their utmost exertions for the benefit of the people of that country. He hoped, therefore, he should not be supposed to have travelled out of his line, in undertaking the introduction of this subject [Hear!]. It was his intention at a later period of the session, to submit a motion on the state of Ireland generally, and therefore he now called for certain papers which were intimately connected with that subject. The chief points on which he required information were—the amount of the revenue of Ireland—the situation of the church, as to the number of resident clergymen—and the mode in which the laws, allowing Roman Catholics to hold certain offices, had been executed, together with a specification of the offices which they were so entitled to fill. As to the revenue of Ireland, it might be said, that information on that head could be procured from the papers now before the House. But, every one must know, that unless it were brought together in a smaller compass for general observation, it would not be attended with that good effect which ought to be derived from it. If, therefore, there was no objection, he would move for "a return of the gross and nett amount of the revenue of customs and excise in Ireland, for two years, ending 5th Jan. 1824; distinguishing the different articles on which it was charged." He would next move for "a return of the amount of money levied by grand jury presentments, for the same period." To that he conceived there could be no objection, as those presentments formed a part of the charge of Ireland, and it was desirable that its extent should be known. The next point on which he would call for information respected the residence of the clergy. He conceived it to be impossible for any man to look to the state of Ireland, and not feel the necessity of having a resident clergy. If, as they must all be convinced, it was of great importance to have a good resident clergy in
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Mr. Goulburn
said, he did not rise to offer any opposition to the motion, because no person who had heard the sentiments uttered by him when the affairs of Ireland were under discussion last session, could doubt that he felt very deeply the importance of the residence of the clergy in Ireland, and that he was most anxious for the enforcement of that system. He had pledged himself, in a former session, to do every thing in his power, and the lord lieutenant had given him every assistance to enforce the residence of the clergy. It would be his duty, in a few days, to give notice to the House that he would introduce a bill, containing such provisions as he hoped would prove completely effectual for that purpose.
Mr. Hume
suggested the necessity of making some alteration in this motion. If carried as it was now worded, a clergyman might be returned as resident who remained only one month on his living, although he was absent during the other eleven. He wished the return to be made under four distinctive classes, specifying those incumbents who had been resident for 3, 6, 9, or 12 months.
Mr. Croker
did not know how a return of this kind could be made, without applying to each individual clergyman. If the clergyman resided long enough to satisfy the general law, he must be returned as a resident. The bishop could only take notice of those clergymen who did not comply with the law.
Mr. Hume
observed, that the clergymen might make the returns. There were only 1,280 parishes, and one post might carry out all the blank returns.
Mr. V. Fitzgerald
said, if the amend-
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Mr. Hume
defended his proposed amendment, and denied that he was casting any stigma on the bishops of Ireland. As to the delicacy of calling for such an account, he thought the House ought to observe little or no delicacy in calling for returns.
The amendment was withdrawn, and the original motion agreed to. On the motion for the papers giving the number of acres belonging to the church of Ireland, distinguishing the glebe lands,
Mr. Goulburn
doubted whether such returns could be produced under the present imperfect admeasurement of districts in Ireland.
Sir J. Newport
believed there was not a bishop in Ireland who could not tell pretty nearly what land he let to his tenants. The information, he thought, might be obtained without the smallest difficulty.
The motion was agreed to. On the motion for a list of Roman Catholics appointed assistant barristers in Ireland,
Mr. Goulburn
asked how government should know whether persons were Roman Catholics or otherwise, unless in those cases where the law had imposed an oath?
Mr. Hume
said, that nothing was more easy than to put the question to each individual.
Lord Althorp
believed the return would be short. He thought no Roman Catholics had been appointed; but he saw no difficulty in making it. A man's religion, in Ireland, was as much a matter of notoriety as his profession.
Mr. Croker
was not sure that the paper called for might not be obtainable; but he knew that the state of the law as to religious profession in Ireland would throw serious difficulties in the way of other objects contemplated by the noble lord opposite. The act of 1793 was the only act which gave the means of ascer-
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Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that the information might be obtained, and there was no objection to giving it; but he decidedly objected to establishing a precedent for putting questions to individuals as to the religion they professed.
Sir F. Burdett
saw a great diversity in the objections of the gentlemen on the other side, and no force whatever in any of their objections. The right hon. secretary seemed to fear the establishment of a species of inquisition, which was to demand men's opinions and professions, calling them forth against their will; but, in fact, the inquiry now contemplated would be gratifying to every person concerned in it.
The motion was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 11, 1824
BANK NOTES IN CIRCULATION.]
Mr. Manning
regretted, that he had not been present yesterday, when an hon. member had moved for a return of the amount of Bank notes and Bank post bills in circulation. He had not the slightest wish to conceal any thing on the subject of the motion of the hon. member; but, after the Bank Restriction act had expired, he was not aware that the House had any right to call upon that establishment for any such returns. It had been provided by the bill of 1797, that certain ac-
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Mr. Grenfell
said, he differed at all points from the hon. gentleman as to the duty of the Bank of England. It seemed to him, that in the present state of the country, it was the imperious duty of the House of Commons, for the sake of the public interest, from time to time to ascertain the amount of Bank notes in circulation. In moving for the paper now alluded to, he had been influenced by no feeling of hostility towards the Bank, but by a strong sense of public duty. It seemed as if the hon. gentleman had totally forgotten the millions of money with which the public entrusted the Bank of England, and for the satisfaction and security of the public, it was absolutely necessary to know how the Bank conducted its business, and whether it was or was not in a state of solvency. If, before 1797, the House had been better informed upon the subject to which the motion referred, the catastrophe which had then happened, would never have occurred. It was very important that this point should be brought to issue, and for this purpose he would move on Tuesday next, for the accounts he had annually applied for, respecting the issue of notes by the Bank of England.
Mr. Manning
repeated, that, as a matter of courtesy, the directors had no objection to furnish hon. gentlemen with such information as they might need for any parliamentary purpose.
QUALIFICATION OF JURORS BILL.]
Mr. Western
rose for the purpose of moving for leave to bring in a bill to make an alteration in the law respecting the Qualification of Jurors. The hon member
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Mr. Leycester
seconded the motion of his hon. friend with much cordiality. The principle upon which the qualification of jurors had been fixed might be classed among the antiquated prejudices of the feudal system, and was totally at variance with the present advanced state of civilization; because it went to exclude a large body of men, who were not only well qualified by education, station, and intellect, but were also willing to take their share in the burthensome duties of that service. Another strong recommendation of this measure was, the prospect it would afford of speedily establishing a third assize. This measure would render the duties of juries in the aggregate less onerous with a third assize, than before they had been with only two. It would remove the only obstacle which at present impeded the establishment of a third assize. He did not anticipate any difficulty upon this last point on account of the judges; for, without adding any expense in the way of salary, or a single member to the number of the judges, it was only to make a more economical use of their judicial means—it was only to dispose with more prudence of their
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Captain Maberly
said, it was necessary for the House to consider what a situation, they might be placed in by the bill which the hon. mover proposed to introduce, and that which the home secretary of state had also given notice of. The right hon. secretary proposed to consolidate all the laws relating to juries while the hon. gentleman was bringing in a bill to amend a particular disposition of those laws. Let them suppose the hon. gentleman's bill to have passed into a law, and the bill of the right hon. secretary introduced. Now, either the bill of the right hon. secretary would contain the provisions of the hon. gentleman's bill, or it would not. If it contained them, there would be two bills with the same enactments: if not, there would be all the laws respecting juries
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Mr. Western
undertook that no inconvenience, like that which had been anticipated by his hon. friend, should arise from the introduction and progress of his bill.
Mr. Lockhart
would not oppose the introduction of the bill: but it was a measure which required great deliberation, and it was important that the House should hear the observations of all the members upon it. The remarks of an hon. member upon the general composition of juries were such, that he could not yield his entire concurrence to them. He could not agree that the old principle of juries was founded in prejudice, or that it was merely an error of the feudal system, which confined the selection of special juries to the class of freeholders. He rather thought that their ancestors had acted from a just and proper sense of the subject. Experience had shown, that the view which had been taken of the subject in ancient times was a sound one, and perhaps the best which could be devised, to protect people from the encroachments of despotism; to secure the rights of subjects against the power and influence of the Crown, and the interests of their property from injustice one among another. The epithet prejudice could only be ascribed fairly to that which had produced evidently bad consequences; whereas that system had proved to be efficient above all others, in opposing the intellect and public virtue of the community to the tyranny of rulers; and it had secured to us the only free constitution, worthy of the name, which existed in the world. He did not feel inclined to oppose the proposition of the hon. gentleman, because it went to place the system of juries in a position more fairly proportioned to the property and intelligence of the people. All he feared was, that the class by which that most invaluable blessing had been maintained hitherto might be too far overlooked. He admitted that they might not equal in expertness and ingenuity some of the enlightened classes which the kingdom contained. Their understanding was of a peculiar kind: there was in it a sort of
vis inertiæ,
129
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he did not intend to oppose the introduction of the bill of the hon. gentleman; in fact, in many parts of it he concurred; at least he thought the whole subject well worthy of serious consideration. He thought at the same time, with his hon. friend who had just spoken, that no alteration should be made in the system without much consideration; though some of the reasons urged by his hon. friend against an alteration, tended to bring him (Mr. Peel) to a directly contrary conclusion. If his hon. friend contended, and as no one would doubt, that the trial by jury was an important instrument for a diffusion of the knowledge of the law throughout all parts of the community, this was surely a reason for extending the privilege of serving on juries beyond the class to which it was now confined. The hon. mover had proposed to admit, as a qualification for serving on juries, the possession of personal property to a certain extent; and he had observed, that this principle was admitted already in corporate towns. But, he doubted in the first place, whether the hon. gentleman did not propose at first to admit too large a class, and whether the possession of a particular amount of personal property would not be found a very uncertain and embarrassing rule to go by. The hon. gentleman proposed, that the possession of 100
l.
130
l.
l.
l.
l.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
CATTLE ILL-TREATMENT BILL.]
Mr. Martin
, of Galway, rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to extend to other animals the privilege and protection which the House, under a bill which he had brought in, had afforded to cattle. To this bill he did not apprehend much objection, as it merely would extend the principle of the bill for preventing cruelty to cattle, to dogs and cats, and monkies, and other animals. [A member asked Mr. Martin whether he included rats!] No, he did not mean to include rats. Gentlemen must have read in the public papers many horrible instances of cruelty perpetrated upon animals with impunity; and one in particular, of an unfortunate dog that went into a shop, and was scalded with a kettle of boiling water, and sent out to die in the streets. In other instances, dogs had been rubbed with oil of vitriol, and sent out to perish in excruciating torments. Without pretending to more sen-
131
l.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
BEAR BAITING.]
Mr. Martin
said, that the second bill which he should move for leave to bring in, would require little detail. He would move for "leave to bring in a bill to prevent Bear-baiting and other cruel practices." There was some hesitation in putting the question, as Mr. Martin had not provided a seconder. Mr. Martin expressed a hope that some gentleman would second it. Some one having seconded it, and the question being put,
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he was as ready as any one to do justice to the motives of his hon. friend, and he did not object to the first of the bills that had been proposed to amend the law for the protection of cattle from wanton cruelty; but the bill which it was the purpose of the present motion to introduce, was an extension so important, that he was surprised his hon. friend did not think proper to enter into the details by which he might conceive it was called for. The hon. gentleman proposed to prohibit certain cruel sports. Now, if the hon. gentleman laid down the general principle, that no pain should be inflicted on animals, beyond such as was necessary in putting them to death for the support of man, his legislation would be consistent; but he was certainly not fair in selecting partial
132
133
Mr. Martin
said, he should defend those gentlemen who amused themselves with shooting, hunting, and fishing, against being confounded with the miserable wretches who pursued the brutal sports which he proposed to prohibit. He wished to stop cruelty as far as he was able: he wished to prohibit those cruelties which public opinion would follow him in saying ought to be prohibited. It was the opinion of all well thinking people out of these walls (and he was happy to say, that there were out of the House, millions of well-thinking people in this country), that cruel sports ought to be prohibited. There was not a part of the kingdom that he was not in correspondence with, and he knew that to be the general opinion. There was no inconsistency in not prohibiting field-sports and in putting down the gross and atrocious cruelties which depraved the morals of the people. Bull-baiting was already prevented. He begged to call to the recollection of the right hon. gentleman a law now existing, which prevented every one of these sports, or rather of these deliberate acts of cruelty, in a particular part of the metropolis. He alluded to the Mary-la-bonne act, which made it illegal to bait a bull, or to hold a bear fight, monkey fight, or dog fight in the parish of Marylabonne. He wished to know whether his right hon. friend meant to repeal that act; and, if he did not mean to repeal that clause in the Marylabonne act, which made it illegal for bears, dogs, and monkeys to fight and massacre each other, he saw no reason why those disgraceful sports ought not to be abolished in every other part of the kingdom. Hunting and shooting, in his opinion, were amusements of a totally different character. Many gentlemen who indulged in those recreations had been the foremost to support his bill for preventing cruelty to animals. A gentleman of his acquaintance, remarkable for the strength of his nerves, had, nevertheless, experienced nausea at the stomach, upon seeing a bull which had been baited. The upper lip was torn, and part of the tongue hung in shreds down the wretched animal's cheek. Honourable gentlemen ought really to attend these sports themselves, before they decided that a bill of this kind ought not
134
Mr. Lockhart
thought he could relieve the hon. gentleman from the necessity of pressing the House to any decision on the subject. The hon. gentleman had already obtained leave to bring in a bill to amend his act for preventing cruelty to cattle, by extending protection to other animals. Now, as he himself admitted, that bull-baiting was illegal by the operation of his own measure, it was evident that if his amendment were carried, the bears to which the hon. gentleman wished to extend protection, would be included in the words "other animals." It would be wholly unnecessary, therefore, to protect bears by a specific enactment.
Mr. Martin
acquiesced in the suggestion of the hon. gentleman, and consented to withdraw his motion.
LEGACY DUTIES.]
Mr. Hume
rose to move for several returns, with a view of bringing the subject of the Legacy Duties under the consideration of the House at a future period. The right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer had, he said, shewn an anxiety to place commercial regulations on a footing of sounder policy than had been hitherto acquiesced in, and he trusted that he would not deem the subject to which he now adverted unworthy of his attention. Legacy taxes had been admitted by all who had written on the subject, to be taxes on the capital of the country, and they ought, therefore, to be repealed at as early a period as possible. The extent to which these taxes were levied, was not perhaps generally known. He had moved last year for returns of the amount of nett revenue derived from probates and administrations of wills, and the House would perhaps be surprised to learn that from the year 1797 to the year 1806, no less a sum than 22,124,000
l.
135
l.,
l.
136
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had no objection to the motion of the hon. gentleman, and he did not think it necessary, on the present occasion, to trouble the House with any observations on the general question of the policy of legacy duties. The House would naturally see that this was a subject of very considerable importance, affecting, as it did, a revenue of not less than a million per annum. With respect, however, to the particular point to which the hon. member had adverted, namely, the grievance to which individuals were exposed in consequence of being called upon to pay arrears of legacy duty, which had not been claimed for many years, he was ready to admit that some strong cases of hardship had been brought under his notice. These cases had arisen, not from any disposition in the parties to evade the payment of the legacy duties, but from the imperfect provisions of the law at its first enactment, and the imperfect regulations under which the law had been acted upon, so that that notice had not been given which every public body, whose duty it was to collect taxes, was bound to give. In the year 1812, many alterations and improvements in the mode of collecting the legacy duties had been adopted, the result of which was, that every person now received a fair and immediate notice of the amount of duty he had to pay. It was perfectly true that the officers, acting under the
137
The motion was agreed to.
CONDUCT OF POLICE OFFICERS—MICHAEL M'CAN.]
Mr. Grattan
rose, to move for copies of the proceedings before a coroner's jury on an inquest held on the body of one M'Can. It appeared from the information which he had received, that the unfortunate sufferer was an agent employed in the collection of rents, in the barony of Strathbane. He was returning to his home, when he entered a public-house, where he met several of the tenants from whom he was to receive rent. Two police-officers came afterwards into the same house, and caused a riot and affray, in the course of which the agent was killed. The hon. gentleman said his information went on to state, that an inquest had been held on the body, at which two surgeons attended, who swore that the death of the deceased was occasioned by an inflammation of the bowels; and that upon this evidence the jury acquitted the police-officer, notwithstanding the dying declaration of the victim, who said that be had been killed by the police-man. The hon. gentleman did not know whether the police-man was still at large, or whether any proceedings had been taken against him. He was, however, induced to make the present motion, in the hope of calling the attention of the magistrates to the conduct of this description of men, who, in the county where this transaction occurred, were notorious for the commission of violent and illegal acts. They were often taken up, and sometimes removed; but never, that he had been able to learn, discharged. The consequence was, that the public had no confidence in the administration of justice, as regarded them; and it was with a view to remedy the existing abuses, by the adoption of some ulterior measures, that he now moved "for copies of the proceedings on the coroner's inquest held on the body of Michael M'Can, at Vicarstown in the Queen's County."
Mr. Goulburn
thought, that without
138
Mr. Grattan
was only desirous to excite a proper degree of attention to this subject, and if the right hon. gentleman would promise to take the case under his own care, and adopt such proceedings as might be necessary, he would gladly leave it in his hands, and withdraw his motion.
Mr. Goulburn
, would not pledge himself to commence a prosecution in a case of which he knew nothing, but he would make inquiries into it, and what the justice of the affair required should be done.
Mr. Grattan
expressed himself satisfied, and withdrew his motion.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 12, 1824
TREAD MLLL BEFORE TRIAL.]
Sir F.
139
said, that seeing the secretary for the home department in his place, he would present a petition with which he had been entrusted by Mr. Martin Stapylton, a magistrate in the North Riding of Yorkshire. The right hon. gentleman had probably seen and heard something of disputes regarding the tread-mill among the magistracy at Northallerton, the majority of whom had been in the habit of sending persons before trial to this very degrading and laborious employment. An act had been passed during the last session upon this subject, and it had been accompanied by a general explanation, that prisoners committed for trial were not fit objects of such a punishment. Nevertheless, the individuals in question had persevered in the former practice, which appeared to the petitioner both illegal and oppressive. He therefore prayed the interposition of parliament: and in the opinion of the hon. baronet, it was loudly called for, to put a stop to a proceeding unwarranted by the spirit of the law of the land, as it inflicted punishment before a jury had decided that any guilt existed. He trusted that some effectual steps would be taken without delay to correct the misinterpretation that prevailed in some quarters, and which was daily leading to acts of the grossest injustice. He hoped that some effective measures would be adopted, either to amend the law, if a mistake prevailed upon the subject, or to correct the practice if it were illegally persevered in. It ought not for a moment to be suffered to exist after this exposure of its oppression and injustice.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that the subject had been recently before the court of King's Bench, and it would be premature to discuss it at present, more particularly as the hon. member for Shrewsbury had given notice of a specific motion upon the subject. He readily agreed, that if the application of the tread-mill before trial were not illegal, it was at all events decidedly impolitic. The chief benefit of its discipline was, that it inflicted a stigma, and a disgrace, a moral punishment, which would be lost if it were used before trial. Upon a principle of justice therefore as well as of expediency, he thought the punishment of the tread-mill ought not to be inflicted before trial.
Sir F. Burdett
said, he could not conceive the slightest doubt upon the illegality of the punishment before trial. It was a compulsory punishment upon men
140
Mr. Peel
said, that between him and the hon. baronet there was no material difference of opinion. Whatever, he repeated, might be the strict law, upon which he was not prepared or qualified to decide, he had not a moment's doubt as to the inexpediency of placing persons on the tread-mill before they had been found guilty of any crime.
Mr. Stuart Wortley
said, that the magistrates at Northallerton felt a strong conviction that they were acting legally in the course they had pursued. The Court of King's-bench had satisfied them that they were right ["No, no"]. Such appeared to him to be the result of the decision of the judges. The hon. member, however, agreed in the inexpediency of such committals, and should be happy to see the matter finally settled by a distinct enactment.
Mr. James
contended, that it was not correct, to state that the Court of King's-
141
Ordered to lie on the table.
ARTIZANS—MACHINERY—COMBINATION LAWS.]
Mr. Hume
said, he was well aware that the subject he was about to bring forward was one of the greatest importance, and attended, perhaps, with more difficulties than any he had hitherto ventured to touch. His object was no less than to submit to the House the propriety of appointing a committee to take into consideration the various laws which intimately concerned, in fact, the major part of the population of the empire. Two years ago, after presenting a petition signed by 15,000 persons, in London only, besides several other petitions from the country, he had given notice, that he should bring forward this question in the session that had last expired. He had found, however, that the subject had already been partially taken up by others, and that it was surrounded with more formidable difficulties than he had at first anticipated. At the end of last session he had given notice that he would, early in the present, fulfil his undertaking; and he had done so by the advice, and in hopes of the assistance, of a distinguished individual, whose recent loss the kingdom had to deplore [hear, hear!]. The late Mr. Ricardo was so well acquainted with every branch of the science of political economy, formerly, and until he had thrown light upon it, so ill understood, that his aid on such a question would have been of the utmost value. When he remembered the manner in which his lamented friend had always delivered his opinions, and the candour of moderation he invariably displayed towards his opponents, he might boldly assert, that there was not a member on any side of the House, who would for a moment deny the extent of the loss the country had thus sustained [hear, hear! from all parts of the House]. The general interest of the community wan the single object he ever had in view, and through good report and bad report, he had pursued it with the meekest spirit of humility, and the most liberal spirit of inquiry. With regard to the principles which Mr. Ricardo was so capable of expounding, now that time had worn away many of the ruder prejudices against them,
142
143
144
145
146
147
Mr. Huskisson
rose, not for the purpose of opposing, but of concurring in the present motion. He wished, however, to have it distinctly understood, that he held himself at liberty, on every part of this subject, to form his opinion upon the evidence which might hereafter be submitted to the committee. He acknowledged that, in much of the general reasoning of the hon. member for Aberdeen, he fully concurred. On the first head of the proposed inquiry which related to the granting permission to arti-
148
onus
149
150
151
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 13, 1824
SINECURE PLACES—KING'S REMEMBRANCER.]
Earl Grosvenor
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that the whole of the circumstances to which the noble earl had alluded, as exhibiting a violation of the principle established in the finance report, were unfounded. Some of the offices referred to were to be regulated under the authority of parliament. One of these offices, that of Clerk of the Pells, had very important duties, which had hitherto been discharged by deputy. With regard to the office of King's Remembrancer of the Exchequer, the regulation of which was undertaken by the
152
The Marquis of Lansdowm
observed, that it had been recommended, that bills should be introduced for regulating the offices referred to in the report of the finance committee, and he should have expected that they would have been brought in for that purpose as soon as possible, in order that the regulations might be made by act of parliament. As yet, however no such bills had come before the House. The Earl of
Liverpool
TREAD-MILL.]
The Marquis of Lansdown
wished to take notice of a report which had reached him, connected with the subject of prison discipline in general, but more particularly with the enforcement of hard labour previous to conviction. Nothing of this kind was understood to be contemplated by the act which came
153
The Earl of Liverpool
completely concurred with the noble marquis in all that he had stated on this subject. He perfectly agreed with him, that if the punishment of the tread-mill was applied previous to sentence, such application was a violation of the letter of the law. The distinction between employment before, and punishment after conviction, was most material; and he would freely say, that if any doubts really existed among the magistrates, they ought to be removed altogether by an act of parliament, if necessary.
154
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 13, 1824
RECIPROCITY OF DUTIES—SHIPPING INTEREST.]
The House having resolved itself into a Committee on the Reprocity of Duties act,
Mr. Huskisson
adverted to the object of the Bill of last session on this subject, enabling the king in council to place the shipping of a foreign state on the same footing as the shipping of Great Britain, provided in the ports of that foreign state British shipping experienced similar advantages. His majesty had been also empowered by the same statute to impose countervailing duties in case any foreign state imposed duties upon any goods or shipping of this country arriving in the ports of that foreign state. It had been found necessary to exercise this last power with regard to the United States. Notwithstanding the act of 1822 had settled the permanent intercourse between our West India Islands and the United States, it appeared that the latter had continued the alien duty on the tonnage of the vessels as well as on the cargo, and it became requisite, therefore, for our own protection, to impose countervailing duties to the extent of those enforced in America. An order in council had accordingly been issued, establishing a duty equal to 94 cents per ton upon the ship, and of 60 cents per ton upon the cargo. This step had certainly been taken by the British government with regret and reluctance, for it was of course very desirous that the duty should be abated in both countries. He was happy to say, however, that the difference was at this time a matter of negotiation between the two countries, and that it had been entered into on both sides in an amicable spirit, with a view merely to secure mutual interests. The step taken by the king in council had not been the result of, nor intended to produce, ill-will in the United States. It had been called for by the justice of the case, and would be gladly retraced whenever the opportunity was afforded. The right hon. gentleman proposed three resolutions, formally to effect the objects he had stated.
Mr. Robertson
expressed his decided disapprobation of the whole system of reciprocity of duties. He insisted that the course ministers were pursuing would be the ruin of the shipping interest, and especially called the attention of the House to the opinions delivered by the late Mr.
155
Mr. Huskisson
said, he had not expected that on this occasion the principle of the bill of last year would be disputed; and, though quite prepared to justify all that had been done, he did not think that he was now called upon to do so. What the resolutions proposed to do was, in fact, in favour of the system which the hon. member so strenuously advocated.
The resolutions were then agreed to.
GROWING CROPS—IRELAND.]
Lord
156
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend an act passed in the year 1816, enabling landlords in Ireland to distrain, as in England, the growing crops of their tenants. To this measure he could see no objection; for he was sure that the landlords themselves could have no desire to exercise this odious power, although, perhaps, their agents might. The object which he had in view was, to take from the effect of the act of 1816 all farms, the rent of which did not amcunt to 10
l
Sir J. Newport
seconded the motion, and remarked that, as an act of justice and humanity to the people of Ireland, the House should remove the power of oppression which at present existed.
Mr. Goulburn
said, he did not rise for the purpose of opposing the motion. He should be sorry to oppose any motion which it was alleged was likely to afford relief to the people of Ireland; but at the same time, he did not mean to pledge himself to give his support to the measure in its future stages, or, on the other hand, to state that he should give it his opposition. But it was worth the consideration of those who introduced the measure, to examine whether there were any circumstances that rendered the extension of the measure necessary to Ireland and not to this country; and they should also consider whether in giving what appeared an advantage to the suffering tenant, by depriving the landlord of the means of recovering the sum which was due to him, they did not impose a greater evil upon the tenant himself, by destroying that credit which the landlord might otherwise have been disposed to give him. It was perfectly true, that the process of
157
Mr. Grattan
said, the measure proposed by the noble lord would not take away from the landlord the power of recovering his rent; it only altered the time. What the noble lord had proposed, was perfectly fair; namely, that a keeper might be retained on the crop whilst it was growing. In the part of Ireland to which he belonged, and where there were resident gentlemen, there was no disposition to distrain the growing crops; so that whatever it might be in other parts of Ireland, the neighbourhood to which he belonged was exempt from the evil.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
SOUTH AMERICA.]
Sir J. Mackintosh
rose to give notice of a conditional motion of a very extensive and general nature. He did not know when he should bring it forward, but he believed it would be on an early day in March. It had reference to the relations existing at present between this kingdom and those countries in South America which had formerly belonged to the throne of Spain, and which had now, and indeed for some time past, become independent. He was unable to specify what the nature of his motion would be, or on what day he should bring it forward. He should therefore allow his majesty's ministers further time to make their arrangements; and should be happy to be relieved from the necessity of making his motion at all, by their taking some salutary measures on the subject in the interim.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 16, 1824
USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.]
On the motion, that this bill be read a second time,
Mr. Davenport
rose to give to it his most decided opposition. The country had grown great and had flourished under the present system of law: where, then, was the necessity of altering it? Besides, the alteration proposed would
158
Mr. Bransby Cooper
rose to second the amendment. The laws for the regulation of the interest of money, which it was the object of the bill to destroy, were, he said, in consistence with the whole of the English laws which had reference to employments in which chance was concerned. The same principle applied to insurances. In the preamble of the bill, there were no arguments in its favour. He thought it much better that the interest of money should be regulated by the present laws than, that all those salutary provisions should be swept away.
Mr. Hume
said, after the observations which had fallen from the hon. member who spoke last, he should be sorry that the bill should go to a division, without some explanation being afforded of the mistake he had fallen into. The hon. member had said, that the Usury Jaws were consistent with the laws of England. Now, the whole tendency of modern legislation, as of the ancientlaws, was, to give the greatest freedom to bargains, and, to all sorts of mercantile transactions. The greatest benefit that had been conferred upon the country by any administration for the last thirty years, was that which had resulted from the enlightened policy of the present administration, in breaking down the absurd restrictions with which commerce had been previously shackled. The hon. member had referred to insurances; and it certainly did surprise him, that any one should adduce a reason which would lead to a result so contrary to that which he aimed at. There was no law to prevent underwriters from taking any premium on a policy which they might agree on with the insured. The analogy of the Usury laws indeed, should lead them to fix certain rates of insurance, without reference to circumstances; as, for instance, that the premium to the West Indies should be 5 per cent, to the East 7, and so on, which
159
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, he should take leave to say a few words on the subject before the House, which was one of the moat important that could be agitated, especially to the landed interest. The measure now before them was, to sweep away the laws which had been sanctioned by the experience of years. During that time, the uniform practice of the government of this country had been to prevent extortion and usury, by enacting those laws which some individuals now wished to be repealed. This country, instead of being injured, had been greatly benefitted by the Usury laws. Since the period of the last act, that of queen Anne, there was no country in which capital had accumulated to so great an extent as it had done in England; and yet they were now called upon to repeal laws, which brought the whole capital of the country into the metropolis. If they were repealed, it ought not to be on mere theoretical grounds: some practical good should be pointed out as likely to be effected by the measure. He contended, that those laws had done no practical injury to the landed interest. In times of distress, it was true, they borrowed
160
Mr. J. Smith
said, that the hon. baronet seemed to fear that the mercantile and manufacturing classes, and even the government itself, must suffer by the repeal of those laws. Now, without entering into much argument on those points, it might be enough to state, that the laws against usury had been done away all over Europe, and that no harm had occurred either to governments or to individuals; but, on the contrary, it was to be believed that the interest of all parties were much improved by that repeal. One or two circumstances had come under his own observation, which proved that those
161
Mr. Grenfell
said, that the chief argument against the bill was, that the effect of the repeal of the usury laws would be, to raise the interest of money. Now, in Holland, there never had been any restraint on money dealings; and he could state from his own experience, as well as from history, that there was no country in Europe where the rate of interest had been and was so low as in the United Provinces. He hoped, therefore, that his majesty's government would countenance this measure, which was in perfect unison with the liberal course of policy they had recently adopted.
Mr. Huskisson
said, he had been a member of the committee to whom this subject was referred in 1818, and who had reported their sentiments to the House. The opinion he had formed in that committee he still entertained. Indeed, he had never varied from it. He need hardly say that it was entirely in unison with the object of the learned serjeant. He considered the Usury laws as only calculated to add to the difficulties of borrowing money, to increase litigation, and to encourage fraud.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that when this question was brought before the House last session he voted against the proposition, not because there was any advantage in the principle of the existing laws, against which, on the contrary, many arguments could be advanced; but because he was not prepared to say
162
Mr. Calcraft
said, it would be very difficult, he was aware, to defend those laws in point of principle; but, in point of practice, he must say that it would be dangerous, without a great deal more consideration, to alter those laws in a country where there was so general and so beneficial a distribution of capital, and where money was to be had at all times at a low rate of interest. If the learned gentleman with whom this measure originated thought, while government was in the market, that any change of the law would make the loan of money cheaper to individuals, he was very much mistaken. He believed the repeal of those laws would raise the price of money to government, instead of reducing it. Gentlemen seemed to suppose, that by carrying this measure, individuals would be saved from ruin, because they would not then be obliged to get into those annuity contracts under which so many families suffered: they believed that a complete end would be put to all ruinous money contracts. But it was utterly impossible to hope for any such result, unless, at the same time that those laws were repealed, they contrived to alter the conduct and temper of individuals. By repealing those laws they would facilitate the borrowing of money by extravagant persons, without conferring any advantage on the steady and industrious part of the community, whom they ought especially to protect. He was not on the committee—[The hon. member was here reminded that he was a member of the committee.] If he was on the committee, he had certainly forgotten the circumstance. He had, however, read the evidence; and if he had known that the learned serjeant's brat, which had been bandied about from session to session, was to have been taken up by government, he would have brought down that evidence, and proved that it did not bear out the view of those who supported this measure. No advantage had been pointed out that would at all warrant them in embarking on such a speculation. There was no country, not even Holland itself, in which wealth had so greatly in-
163
Mr. Serjeant Onslow
certainly could not congratulate the hon. gentleman opposite on the strength of his memory, for he had undoubtedly been a member of the committee; and it was equally certain that he had attended it. It was scarcely necessary for him to make any observations on the objections which had been made to this measure, after what had fallen from hon. gentlemen opposite, and his right hon. friends near him. The hon. gentleman who seconded the amendment had fallen into a great mistake about the origin of the Usury laws. Much of his veneration for those laws seemed to be founded upon a notion of their great antiquity; but he would probably be surprised to learn, that the taking of interest for money at all was proscribed by our early statutes as being contrary to Christianity. This was the uniform language of our early statutes. It had been said by the hon. baronet opposite, that the landed interest would be borne down by this measure; that in ordinary times money might be readily obtained upon mortgage; and that in seasons of difficulty recourse might be had to the system of raising money by redeemable annuities. Undoubtedly redeemable annuities could be resorted to: they had, in point of fact, been resorted to; but at what rate of interest? Why, at the ruinous rate of 10, 12, 13, and 14 per cent., for two, three, or four lives. This was the remedy which the hon. baronet preferred; this was the ruinous expedient of which he was so much enamoured! Not only had this expedient been resorted to at a period of difficulty, but estates had been actually sold at a time when scarcely a purchaser could be found in the market. He was satisfied, that the repeal of the Usury laws would be so far from being injurious to the landed interest, that no class of the community would derive more essential benefit from that repeal than the agricultural class. The objections which had been made to the measure, on the ground of its being injurious to the commercial interest, were equally unfounded. As to the expedient of borrowing stock to replace it, it had been no less ruinous than that of resorting to redeemable annuities. An hon. friend near him had mentioned a case to him—and this was far from being a solitary instance—in which a person had lost 30 per cent by borrowing stock to re-
164
Mr. Baring
said, that, after the general concurrence of sentiment which seemed to prevail on this subject, it was scarcely necessary for him to trouble the House with any observations. He could not, however, forbear saying a few words on a subject of such importance, involving, as it undoubtedly did, a change in our laws of very considerable importance. But though it was a change of considerable importance, it was a change which would produce no immediate effect; and it was because it would produce no immediate effect, that he conceived this to be the proper time for legislating on the subject. They were not now legislating on the subject of fixing the value of money; and, perhaps, a more favourable opportunity of doing away with those laws had not occurred in the last half century. It had been said, that a vast accumulation of capital had taken place, notwithstanding the existence of these laws. The fact was, that the accumulation of capital had gone on increasing, because the Usury laws as far as capitalists and monied men were concerned, were wholly inoperative. The invasion of these laws was so easy, that the monied interest had never been affected by them. Not so, however, the agricultural interest; and it was not without surprise, therefore, that he found this measure most vehemently opposed by that very class of the community, which, above all others, it was most calculated to benefit—he meant the country gentlemen. He really hoped, if it were only for the advantage of hearing what could be urged against this measure and that an opportunity might be afforded of removing the prejudices which were entertained against it, that this bill would be suffered to go further. Even if it were not possible to remove the prejudices of the country gentlemen, and to satisfy them that the measure was calculated to promote their interests, nothing would be more easy, when this bill came into the committee, than to restrict its operation to all classes of the community, except the agricultural; so that it might not ex-
165
Captain Maberley
said, the hon. member for Wareham had asserted that, the policy of this measure was not borne out by the evidence given before the committee. Now, he had within these few days referred to that evidence, and he begged leave to differ entirely from the opinion of the hon. member. He should give his cordial support to a measure, which he believed to be founded on the soundest principles of commercial policy, and in the expediency of which the most enlightened statesmen, as well as practical men, had equally concurred. He need only refer to such names as those of the late sir Samuel Romilly, the late Mr. Ricardo, Mr. Sugden, and Mr. Rothschild.
Sir W. de Crespigny
expressed his entire concurrence in the policy of the measure.
Mr. J. Martin
considered the Usury laws injurious to all classes of the community; but more especially to the agricultural interest.
The House divided: For the second reading 120. For the Amendment 23. The bill was then read a second time.
DEPUTY REMEMBRANCERSHIP OF THE
Mr. Baring
requested to be informed of the circumstances under
166
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that Mr. Vincent's appointment was temporary. The law which came into operation at the death of Mr. Steele, did not provide for the abolition of the office of deputy remembrancer, or fix the manner in which the duties of that office should henceforward be performed. It only required that, whenever that event took place, the lords of the Treasury should determine what should be the future duties of the office, and what should be the extent of the emolument arising from it. The lords of the Treasury, accordingly, upon the death of Mr. Steele, lost no time in calling upon the barons of the Exchequer and on the chancellor of the Exchequer, to report to them as to the nature of the office; but the fact was, that the duties of it, from the nature and constitution of the Exchequer, were absolutely necessary to be continued until some new system could be arranged; and it was not very easy to decide by what system the business would be best done, and with least expense to the public. Pending this inquiry, however, Mr. Vincent had been appointed. He was required himself to perform the duties of the place, and allowed no deputy; and he was directed to receive the accustomed fees for the present, not keeping them for himself, but paying them into the consolidated fund; the lords of the Treasury of course reserving to themselves the power of giving him an adequate compensation for his labour. For himself, he was most anxious to regulate the office in that way which should be most conducive to the public service; and, whatever difficulty there might be in determining the precise mode in which the necessary duties should be executed, there could be no doubt they would be performed at a considerably less expense than they had been heretofore.
Mr. Baring
professed himself satisfied with the explanation, and trusted that the new arrangement would amount to a complete remodelling of the Exchequer. It was high time that the country should get rid of a system of keeping accounts so cumbrous and so inefficient, that it might almost disgrace a tribe of Indian savages.
DRY ROT IN SHIPS.]
Mr. Hume
rose to present a petition connected with the charges for the navy. The petitioner was
167
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he would put it to the hon. member, whether this was a convenient moment for presenting such a petition.
Mr. Hume
said, he had no wish whatever to interfere with other business; and would therefore present the petition upon another occasion.
NAVY ESTIMATES.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply,
Sir George Clerk
rose, to bring forward the Navy Estimates for the present year. He said, that after the great reductions which had already taken place in our naval department, he did not apprehend that any further ones were likely to be proposed. The vote called for this year was about 320,000
l
168
l
l
169
l
s
Mr. Warre
wished to put a question with respect to the arrangements respecting the preventive service, which had established a sort of gendarmerie upon our shores. The high duties imposed in time of war were, now that France and England were at peace, operating as such a bounty upon contraband trade as no vigilance could withstand, and producing actually a regular guerilla warfare between the government force and the smugglers. We had now no fewer than 1,700 men employed in the preventive service, patrolling upon our coast. He wished also to know if, in case of any addition being made to the force appointed to the coast blockade, the additional forces would be put under the same commands as at present. There was one ship of war stationed in the Downs to watch over a line of coast so extensive, that the officer who there held control was either on horseback or in the boat, night and day continually, for weeks together. This he might do from his zeal and anxiety to complete a system of his own creation; but it was too much for the country to receive from the service of any one man. His only object, however, in rising, was, to know if any, and what portion of this additional force was to be put under the command of the gallant officer to whom he had alluded.
Sir G. Clerk
said, that it certainly was the intention of government to continue the system of the preventive service as at present established, which, notwithstanding the remarks of the hon. member, had operated with most complete success. There had been one violent and bloody affray upon the coast of Kent, which had been much dwelt on by the opponents of the system; but it was merely the last desperate effort of the smugglers in that part, to defend their unlawful occupation against the encroachments of the preventive service. It was very true that captain M'Culloch had his whole heart in the success of the system, of which he was the contriver, and that his duties were of a very weighty kind, his command reaching in extent from Chichester, westward, to the Isle of Sheppy, eastward. Of the additional force now asked for, 630 seamen were to be placed under the superintendence and direction of that officer. The narrowness of the channel in this
170
Colonel Davies
doubted the last proposition of the gallant officer, that the amount of taxes could be augmented by such enormous duties on foreign spirits. And whether the surest mode of augmentation would not be considerably to reduce the duties; which would also enable them to get rid of that most expensive system of coast-blockade. By returns for which he had moved last session, it appeared that the expense was no less than 600,000
l
Mr. Hume
said, he was not satisfied with the addition of the navy, nor did he like the mode in which the accounts were laid before the House. It was impossible to choose any method in which mischief would be more likely to arise, than the combining of the preventive service, with the regular means of defence for the country. The House was kept from knowing the limits of either branch of the service; and if it were not so, it was next to impossible to ascertain the expense of collecting the revenue, and consequently, they were without the power of deliberat-
171
172
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174
175
Sir George Clerk
observed, in reference to the statement of the hon. member for Aberdeen, that in the year 1817, his majesty's ministers had held out the hope of still further reduction in the naval branch, he could positively say the hon. member was mistaken. Indeed, there was no sentiment more general in that House, and with the gentlemen on the other side, who generally voted with the hon. member, than the apprehension that at that period the naval force was reduced lower than the public service warranted. It was, in fact, reduced below the state in which it stood at the hon. gentleman's favourite epoch, the year 1792. The hon. gentleman had assumed, that no reason had or could be assigned for the augmentation at present proposed, except the demands of the coast blockade. Now, it was in the recollection of the committee, that in proposing the resolution, he had adverted to the necessity of such an augmentation, from the state of affairs which, without any prospect of hostilities on our part, naturally grew out of the condition
176
Mr. Bernal
said, that if those cheers were intended to signalize the triumph of the gallant officer over his hon. friend, that opinion was allowable to those who
177
Sir George Cockburn
said, he would not appeal to either of the hon. members, to know whether the speech which he had had the honour of making to the House in the course of last session was satisfactory or not to the officers in the service. There were several able and experienced officers in the House: if they were prepared to say, that there was any thing in the remarks which he had then made which was disagreeable to the service generally, let them get up and assert it manfully. He himself was intimate with some officers of the service, and probably had had as much experience to guide him, as to the general opinion of what he then said, as either of the hon. members. What he had then advanced, he now repeated; namely, that while the road of promotion was kept open to merit and enterprise, however obscure the station and origin of the parties, the navy would feel no jealousy whatever at seeing persons of rank and condition promoted among them. Let not the committee believe that the employment of officers of high rank and connexions was the source of any mean or undue jealousy in that service. On the contrary, the navy felt proud in having such men in the profession—they felt
178
179
Sir F. Ommanney
supported the resolution.
Captain Maberly
stated, that whether he looked to the assurances of the Speech from the throne, which held out hopes of the continuance of peace with foreign powers, or to the states of South America, now assuming an organised form of government, and therefore likely to be relieved from those disputes with neutrals, in which infant communities struggling for freedom were likely to be involved, he saw no ground for the proposed augmentation. Spain, without the assistance of a foreign power, could not renew war in South America. Our commercial intercourse, which had perhaps in the disturbance of revolution suffered, was now to be superintended by consuls, sent out for that special service. The natural expectation was, therefore, that the interference of naval officers would not be necessary as heretofore. What reason, therefore, existed for such an increase? The finance committee, whose reports were on the table, never contemplated a naval peace establishment above 19,000 men.
Mr. Hume
asked, why ministers had allowed six British ships of war to remain in the Tagus, doing nothing, while there was only one at Lima?—Let the Board of Admiralty answer that. What cause was there at present for an extension of our naval force in South America? While the South American colonies were in confusion, and privateers were fitted out from those colonies, to attack the trade of all countries—then, where were our ships? Then, indeed, there might have been some cause for apprehension; but then, no efforts were made. Now, that those states were independent;—now that their independence was acknowledged to a certain degree, what fear could there be of their ships meddling with our trade at sea? As to the question, respecting the promotion of masters in the navy, he readily admitted, that if they were not qualified, they ought not to be promoted, and allowed to take the situation of lieutenants. But the order in council to which he had alluded, declared that they were not eligible even to be examined. If there was an order in council which stated that if masters were meritorious they should be promoted, let the gallant officer produce it, and he would not say another word on the subject. In all that he had said, his only object had been to uphold the navy, by advising that pre-eminent
180
Sir G. Cockburn
wished still more particularly to deny the bold misrepresentation which had been made of the opinions which he had delivered in the last session. What he had most distinctly stated was, not that every young nobleman, or other man of family, ought to be promoted such an assertion would have been most absurd. The whole of his argument had been, that if it were proved that sufficient attention
181
Mr. Secretary Canning
confirmed the accuracy of what had just fallen from his hon. and gallant friend. His hon. and gallant friend had never said—no man in his senses ever could think of saying—that the claim of individuals of rank and family to promotion in the naval service was a matter of course. His hon. and gallant friend had said nothing like it. The substance of what his hon. and gallant friend had last session said was, that it was for the good of the naval service, that it was for the good of the whole profession, and even that it was for the I good of that part of the profession which bad nothing but its services to depend; upon, that its general respectability should be maintained by a due mixture in it of men distinguished by birth as well as by service; and that, provided a due proportion of promotion was given to merit and service, those who by their merit and service had earned that promotion, would look without grudging on the promotion of the others. And why? Because the character of every individual in the service materially depended on the general character of the service. In the naval service, as, happily in all classes in England, eminence must be combined of self-created merit, with original claims. The observation of his hon. and gallant friend had been, not that an invidious preference ought to be held out to induce young men of rank and family to enter the navy; but that, without some promise of reward, it could not be expected that they would leave the ease and indulgence of their homes, and that they could be allured to do so only by such a partial expectation of promotion, as would at the same time not be inconsistent with the
182
183
Mr. Hume
observed, that after what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, he would not press his amendment to a division.
The original resolution was then put, and agreed to.
CLERGY RESIDENCE BILL—IRELAND.]
Mr. Goulburn
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to compel, as far as was possible, the residence of the clergy of Ireland upon their benefices. He did not think it necessary upon this occasion to detain the House very long by explaining the particulars of the measure which he proposed. No one would deny that the residence of the clergy was, in all countries, beneficial to the inhabitants; but it was obvious, that the practice was still more necessary in Ireland, because the greater the difficulties under which that country laboured, the more requisite was it that a vigilant attention should be paid to the wants of its inhabitants. There was another point of view in which the residence of the Irish clergy seemed no less important; not only were they called upon to perform the offices of religion, but, in consequence of the absence of the gentry, they were required to minister to other than the spiritual wants of the people. The object of the bill which he proposed to introduce was, to effect this. In some cases he was aware that the residence must be dispensed with. These were either when the incumbents were compelled to reside on other parts of their benefices, or where the infirmities of nature caused their absence. He proposed to limit these cases to such as were strictly unavoidable; and to take care that an adequate provision should always be made for the administration of the incumbent's duties. By an adequate provision, he not only meant that persons should be employed, who should be duly qualified, by their moral character and acquirements, to be ministers of religion, but that their stipends should be suitable to the duties they would be expected to perform. He would shortly state, that the form of the bill would be in most respects similar to the existing law on the same subject in England. It would con-
184
seriatim
Sir J. Newport
expressed his readiness to concur in any measure which should be calculated to carry into effect the object of the right hon. gentleman, and he thought the best means of accomplishing that object would be by preventing the beneficed clergy from holding pluralities. There were instances in which clergymen, already holding five, or six, and even ten benefices, had obtained faculties by which they were permitted to unite to those benefices, three or four more parishes. By a reference to the episcopal returns, it would be found that lord Clifford, in the deanery of Armagh, held four parishes, in which duty was performed, and that he was in possession of 388 acres of glebe; he held also four other parishes, and in right of them 297 acres of glebe; but, in these latter parishes, no duty was performed. There was also another living in another diocess, consisting of five parishes, in none of which there was a glebe house, although there were 240 acres of glebe land. In the diocess of Clogher there was enjoyed in right of a living, 1,300 acres of glebe land, though there was no glebe house; and in that of Meath, five vicarages, containing 2,600 acres were in the same situation. The only way, he thought, of procuring the residence of the clergy would be by doing away with these monstrous pluralities, as he would call them, The law, as it stood upon the Irish Statute-book, prevented the bishops who were inclined to do so, from dissolving these unions. The bishop of Cloyne had publicly expressed his regret, that he was prevented from doing so by the act of the 21st of Geo. 2nd, which forbad such dissolutions, that the value of ecclesiastical dignities might not be diminished.
Mr. Hume
expressed a hope, that in the event of the bill in question being passed into a law, care would be taken to insert a clause depriving the bishops of the
185
Mr. Dawson
said, he felt bound to object to any interference with church property in Ireland. That property ought to be held as sacred, as the church property of England, and was entitled to equal protection. If once they meddled with the one, inroads would soon be made upon the other also. He wished also to protest against insinuations which had been thrown out, that the Irish clergy did not do their duty. If gentlemen looked about them, they would find that the Irish clergy did their duty in a most exemplary manner. They were assailed on all sides, but still they persevered in one undeviating, straight-forward course. Let any man look to the Irish clergy, either as ministers of the gospel, as magistrates, or as citizens, and, in each capacity, he would have reason to praise their moral and upright conduct. It might so happen, that a parish was neglected, or that an union existed which ought to be dissolved; but the right hon. baronet must be aware, that in a great many instances the union of parishes had become indispensable; as it was found impossible to procure an attendance at the churches which would be established by a subdivision. This, however, was a matter which had not escaped the attention of the bishops of Ireland. They had found it necessary, in some in-
186
Colonel Trench
said, that the Bill about to be introduced was of vital importance to Ireland; its object being to ensure, the permanent residence of competent persons in the different parochial districts. He deprecated the alterations proposed by gentlemen on the other side—alterations which, if once introduced into the sister country, would soon extend themselves to England, and at once create a revolution in the whole Church property of both countries. He did not pretend to deny that there existed abuses which required amendment, but then these abuses must be approached, not rudely, but cautiously; the alterations called for, must be made by a delicate hand; they must be effected, not suddenly, but slowly, and with the utmost circumspection.
Mr. Butterworth
said, he had good reason to believe, that in Ireland many persons frequented Roman Catholic chapels, and ultimately became Roman Catholics, solely because they had no Protestant churches to go to. He had himself seen in Ireland the ruins of many churches, which had been allowed to go to decay, in consequence of this union of parishes. He hoped something would be done to remedy the evils caused by these unions, and by other parts of the existing system in Ireland.
Mr. Goulburn
said, he felt it necessary to object to the two points dwelt upon by the hon. Gentlemen opposite; namely the, reduction of pluralities, and the interference with the Church establishment of Ireland. The question with respect to the church livings in Ireland had been so ably supported and opposed elsewhere, that it was unnecessary to discuss it on that occasion. With respect to the other evil alluded to, he was happy to state that the subject had not escaped the primate of Ireland, who fully felt the inconvenience of pluralities in many instances; and he had laid down a rule, that where the union was dissoluble, the occupant was not allowed to hold any other. This was enough to shew that the state of Ireland was not what it was a hundred years ago; and he was sure both the right hon. baronet, and the hon. member for Montrose, would agree with him, that at no time had greater improvements been made in our
187
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 17, 1824
GAME LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.]
Mr. Stuart Wortley
rose, in pursuance of notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the laws for the preservation of Game; and, though he knew, he; said, that the House was anxious to get to the very important business that was fixed for the evening, he could not pass over his motion without some remarks; for there could be no subject more important to the comfort, to the morals, and the well being of the people of this country, than that to which it related. He professed himself, from his station in life, to be a country gentleman, and had been a strict preserver of game in a part of the county where it was extremely difficult to preserve it; yet he was persuaded, that the fears of his brother country gentlemen on
188
189
190
Sir J. Shelley
did not rise to oppose the bringing in of the bill; but he must in the outset, protest against the principle on which it proceeded. If this bill was carried, game would soon disappear, and those field sports to which country gentlemen were so much attached, would be effectually destroyed. On the second reading, he should certainly take the sense of the House upon it. He begged of his hon. friend to put off the second reading for some time. Gentlemen in various parts of the country were extremely anxious on the subject, and an opportunity ought to be afforded them to state their sentiments. Let not gentlemen suppose that game alone would be affected by the proposed alteration. The fact was, that if it were carried, fox-hunting also would be destroyed.
Mr. S. Worthy
was desirous to obtain the opinion of all persons who were concerned in the measure, and with that view would allow as much time as he could conveniently. But his hon. friend would recollect, that besides the class he had alluded to, there was a very large body of persons, namely, the public, who were interested in this measure. It was undoubtedly of importance to that body, that the question should be decided as early as possible.
Leave was then given to bring in the bill.
CONDUCT OF MINISTERS—NEUTRALITY BETWEEN FRANCE AND SPAIN.]
Lord Nugent
said, that in laying before the House the grounds of the motion of which he had some days ago given notice, he must begin with stating, that he did not mean to animadvert on the vote to which the House had agreed on the first night of the session. This, however, he must say—that with respect to that part of the address of his majesty's ministers which regarded the neutrality of this country between France and Spain, he felt entirely with his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Brougham), who on that night had so forcibly and so eloquently expressed his sentiments—he felt with him that it was very difficult indeed to concur entirely in the terms of an address which could see nothing but a subject of congratulation in the result of the policy pursued by this country during the war which had just terminated. He thought, on the one hand, that the policy which government professed to adopt towards Spain,
191
192
193
194
195
196
197
198
199
200
201
202
203
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he merely rose to answer one or two questions which had been put to him by the noble lord opposite, before the debate went any farther. Looking from the period at which the Spanish government left Seville, to the surrender of Cadiz, the noble lord had asked, whether sir W. A'Court, during that time, had acted upon instructions, or upon his own personal discretion. The answer was, that sir W. A'Court had acted, in some degree, upon both. Government had endeavoured to foresee every case which was likely to arise, and had furnished sir W. A'Court with instructions, in every such case, how to act; but that gentleman had also been made fully aware, that if circumstances should arise which the caution of ministers had not enabled them to foresee, the greatest confidence was placed upon his personal discretion, and he had been apprised that, supposing any case of a new and unprecedented nature to occur, the ' safest course for him would be to repair to Gibraltar, and either remain there until he should receive instructions, or proceed to any other spot at which his services I might seem to be required. It so happened, that none of the cases foreseen by government did occur, and that a case did occur—upon which he should not dwell now, because he did not mean, in the present stage, at all to argue the question. A case did occur, which no wisdom of man could have foreseen; namely, the deposition, for a limited period, of the king. Sir W. A'Court, certainly, had not been prepared for this event; and it would be rather a high demand upon the sagacity of ministers, to say, that they should have anticipated it: under such circumstances, sir William, of course, acted for the time upon his own discretion. It was true that sir W.
204
Mr. Sturges Bourne
said, that if the British Government had been guilty of the breach of neutrality which the noble lord would ascribe to them, he thought they should not only have heard of it at home, but it would have been loudly proclaimed abroad; yet, strange to say, this was the first intimation he had heard of such a charge. He had expected the noble lord would not have confined himself to a general charge, but would have pointed out the particular instances upon which he founded his accusation, and then he should have been able to follow him. The country would, at least, give the government credit for having prevented a war, which would have gone from one end of Europe, probably, to the other, and brought England into the contest. That fact was absolutely certain, with the greater proportion of the Spanish population. But it was worth while to examine a little further the circumstances under
205
206
207
Lord Nugent
rose to reply. He said that the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down had mistaken much that had fallen from him; and it appeared to him, that if the right hon. gentleman disapproved of the motion, the most obvious course would
208
209
The question being put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question," the House divided: Ayes 30: Noes 171. Majority against lord Nugent's Motion 141.
List of the Minority.
Baring, A.
Ingilby, sir W.
Burdertt, sir F.
Maberly, J
Benyon, B.
Maberly, W. L.
Brougham, H.
Mackintosh, sir J.
Campbell, hon. J.
Marjoribanks, S.
Cavendish, H.
Palmer, C. F.
Denison, W. J.
Robarts, col.
Denman, T.
Russell, lord J.
Ellice, E.
White, L.
Grattan J.
Wall, B.
Graham, S.
Wood, M.
Hume, J.
Wilkins, W.
Hutchinson, hon. C. H.
Wilson sir R.
Hamilton, lord A.
TELLERS.
Honywood, F.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Hurst, R.
Nugent, lord
Mr. Sturges Bourne's
motion being then put; namely, "That this House is duly sen-
210
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 18, 1824
SMALL DEBTS—COUNTY COURTS REGULATION BILL.]
Lord Althorp,
in moving for leave to bring in a bill for the
211
l.
l.
Mr. J. Smith
seconded the motion. The hon. member said, he had witnessed the evils resulting from the expenses attending the present system of recovering small debts; indeed, if he were called on to state the greatest oppression which the poor endured, he should mention the vexation and expense suffered in the recovery of small debts. He had known an instance of the effects of it in his own family. A servant of his had been arrested for a debt of 17
l.
s.
l.
s.
212
l.
l.
s.
Leave was given to faring in the bill.
RECOVERY OF PENALTIES BEFORE MAGISTRATES.]
Mr. Davies Gilbert
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill for the more effectual Recovery of Penalties before Magistrates, and for facilitating the execution of warrants. The hon. gentleman said, that in cases of conviction before a magistrate for certain offences, without entering into the large question, whether it was fit to extend or narrow the summary jurisdiction of magistrates, the bill which he proposed would be confined to the remedying of two defects, which every one, he imagined, would be desirous of seeing removed. The first was, as to those fines which were directed by law to be levied by distress on the goods of the offender. As the law stood, when such a fine was imposed by the magistrate, he had no power to detain the offender till it was seen whether or no he had any goods on which distress might be made; so that in the case of vagrants and others who could remove themselves meanwhile out of the jurisdiction of the magistrate, it was sometimes impracticable to inflict any punishment in the cases which most deserved it. He proposed, therefore, to enable the magistrate, when oath was made that it was believed the offender had no goods and chattels, to detain him until inquiry was made. The second defect was one that had been recently discovered. It had been decided, however, by the courts
213
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
BANKRUPT LAWS.]
Mr. W. Courtenay
rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given yesterday, to move for leave to bring in a bill "to consolidate and amend the Laws relating to Bankrupts." As the House must be aware of the nature of those laws, and of the necessity of revising them, he would not enter into any general view of the subject. It would, however, be proper to make one or two observations on the nature of the proposed measure. One of the main objects of the bill would be, the consolidation of the various acts relating to this subject, in order to present, at one view, the whole state of the law—to point out clearly who were the persons liable to be subjected to its operations; what were the acts which brought them under its controul; and what the power granted by the different statutes. In addition to this, he meant to propose for consideration, some alterations in the existing law. He would not state the whole of the alterations he contemplated, but he would briefly advert to one or two of them. In the first place, he would propose a clause on a very important point; namely, the allowing persons, under certain restrictions and limitations, to declare themselves bankrupt, which, on account of the criminal character attached to the act of bankruptcy, as the law now stood, they were disqualified from doing. He admitted there were circumstances under which this could not be allowed; but, under particular restrictions and limitations, it might be carried into effect. He should also propose some alteration with respect to the manner in which certificates were to be obtained and granted. He felt very great difficulty in legislating on
214
Mr. J. Smith
thought the country was under great obligations to the learned gentleman for the measure which he was about to introduce, and of which he entirely approved. But, considering the situation in which he was formerly placed, as chairman of the committee on the bankrupt laws, and in justice to those with whom he then laboured, he must say, that the measure which the learned gentleman now proposed was identically the same in principle with that which he (Mr. S.) had brought forward some time ago. He had given up much time to the consideration of this subject; but, however well he might understand it, he did not pretend to possess that legal knowledge which would enable him to form a bill of such a description as would meet all objections. The main object of this bill was one which a clever and intelligent solicitor of the city had long been endeavouring to carry into effect. He alluded to Mr. Freshfield, who had for two years given his advice and assistance, almost gratuitously, on this complicated subject. He, therefore, should be sorry, if a question of this kind were taken out of his hands altogether, without stating how much benefit had been derived from Mr. Freshfield's exertions. The learned gentleman had alluded to one or two clauses which he meant to introduce. One of these he was afraid would meet with considerable opposition. He alluded to that which related to the obtaining of certificates; and which would prevent the withholding of that necessary document from the bankrupt at the pleasure of a single creditor. No clause could deserve more serious consideration than this; because, to his own knowledge, some most grievous hardships, he would say most abominable acts of injustice, had been suffered by bankrupts, in consequence of the conduct of individual creditors who had large demands on them; and who had kept their certificates from well-meaning bankrupts, and condemned them to want and misery for
215
Mr. Serjeant Onslow
approved of the consolidation of the bankrupt laws into one system. The decisions under the various acts had rendered a very complicated system of law necessary. He joined most cordially in the tribute which his hon. friend had paid to a gentleman, not a member of that House. He knew that individual well, and was aware how much his valuable time had been devoted to this subject. The measure which that gentleman's industry had so great a share in producing, was, he conceived, the foundation of the present.
Mr. Abercromby
said, that if the intention of his hon. and learned friend was, to make an alteration in the existing acts by leaving out certain parts of them, and thus altering, in many respects, the law, he had, undoubtedly, imposed on himself a duty of extreme difficulty; because there was nothing so difficult, after all the decisions under those laws, as to say, that he would embody all that was necessary in his consolidated act, and at the same time preserve untouched those decisions. It was an arduous task, and he hoped the public would have no cause to complain of his hon. and learned friend's labours. He entirely approved of the alteration which the learned gentleman meant to introduce. It was an approximation to the Scotch
cession bonorum,
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
CRIMINAL JUDICATURE OF THE ISLE OF MAN.]
Mr. Curwen
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for documents relative to certain alterations which had been made by the duke of Athol in the Criminal Law of the Isle of Man. The question was of vital importance, not to that island alone, but to all the islands appertaining to Great Britain; for, if a change of this kind were allowed to be arbitrarily made
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ipse dixit
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Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he felt some difficulty in meeting this motion, because he had not only to contend with the hon. gentleman opposite as a member of that House, but he had also to contend with him as a key, and consequently under all the disadvantages necessarily arising from a want of the hon. gentleman's local information and experience. The hon. gentleman had dealt with this question both as a member of that House, and as a member of the insular legislature; and though he might feel satisfied that he should be able to answer the call of the hon. member in his more general capacity, he certainly did not feel himself equally prepared to contend with him in his capacity of Key. He had to observe, in the first place, that the form of the hon. member's notice was somewhat inaccurate. He had given notice that he meant to move for a copy of the Insinuations to the duke of Athol to make alterations in the Criminal Law of the Isle of Man. Now, who would not suppose from this notice, that he (Mr. P.) had given some arbitrary instructions to make an alteration in the criminal law of that island? He would shortly explain to the House the question upon which he was called upon to decide: it was a question of law, namely, whether the House of Keys, which was the popular branch of the legislature, was entitled to be called upon to act upon every jury trial that took place in the island. If, a the hon. member contended, the popular branch of the legislature was also, by the local constitution of the island, a branch of a criminal court, he (Mr. P.) would certainly give him an opportunity of discussing the policy of allowing a court to be so constituted; for he should, without delay, move for an act of parliament to deprive them of the right, and clear all doubts upon the subject. That the popular branch of the legislature should sit upon every jury trial, and control the decision of the jury, was so monstrous an anomaly, that it ought at once to be put an end to. The question of law, however, having arisen, as to whether the House of Keys did form a part of the Court of Gaol Delivery, he (Mr. P.) had referred the case to the Recorder of Liverpool, who was attorney-general of the island. That gentleman took the subject into his consideration, and gave a derided opinion, that there was no ground for such a claim of jurisdiction on the part of
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Mr. Abercromby
said, that the argument on which his hon. friend relied, namely, the length of time during
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Mr. Secretary Peel
observed, in explanation, that it was the opinion of the attorney-general, that the House of Keys formed no part of the court of gaol delivery, though it had been occasionally referred to in cases of corrupt finding.
Mr. Abercromby
said, that the point to which he was anxious to call the attention of the House, was the practice. This was stated by his hon. friend to have been a long and uninterrupted usage, and to this statement he had heard no contradiction from the right hon. gentleman. All that he could collect from his statement was this—that a doubt having arisen on the subject, and application having been made to him on the subject, he had called in to his assistance the opinions of the law officers of the Crown, and that the result of those opinions was, that the attendance of the House of Keys was an usurpation arising from an alleged necessity, and founded upon a supposition of corruption in the judges of the criminal court. But, this single fact alone showed most strongly the vast importance of the subject. On the one hand, we had a very narrow assemblage of people, who contended they had a clear and undisturbed right; and, on the other hand, a practice of some extent was admitted, the origin of which practice was founded upon the necessity of some control over a supposed corruption. Supposing, then, this to be the case, there arose the very material question, who were to be the substitutes? According to the statement of the secretary of state, the substitutes were to be the very judges who were considered so corrupt. This showed most strongly the strange administration of justice in that Island, for the purity of which, according to the existing practice, there seemed to be no security. But his next objection to the course which had been adopted, was a very strong one. Admitting that the opinion of the attorney-general for the Island, and the law officers of the Crown were correct, which he did not mean to doubt, still he should say, that in fairness these people had a right to be heard, before the decision of the secretary of state had been pronounced. The correct course would
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The Attorney-General
said, that the case had been laid before himself and his learned colleague, and, upon a full inspection of the documents, they were clearly of opinion, that at no period in the history of that Island did the Court of Keys form a part, by right, of the court of gaol delivery; at no period did they form, of right, a constituent part of that tribunal. But the House of Keys, not at a very remote period, but about a hundred years ago, had usurped the right of arraigning the conduct, and summoning before them, and fining the court of gaol delivery, for whatever they considered improper. The hon. member asked, whether they did not attend the court? He answered "Yes;" but they had no power to do so. They were never members of that court, and the power which they exercised was an usurpation. He apprehended that the right hon. secretary of state, had never given any instructions on the subject. The opinion of the attorney-general of the Island was first taken; then it was considered advisable to ascertain whether the law officers of the Crown concurred with him; and, when their opinion had been taken, it was forwarded to the governor of the Island. His hon. and learned friend opposite had said, that these parties had a right to be heard; but the House must consider that this opinion to which he had adverted was given twelve months ago, and since that time an ample opportunity had been afforded them of making their appeal. But the hon. mover seemed to think that House a fitter tribunal to appeal to, than that which had been constituted by the law of the land. His opinion, and that of his learned colleague was, that the claim of the House of Keys was not founded in law; but, if others were of a different opinion, there was an obvious course by which that right might be fully ascertained.
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Sir James Mackintosh
said, be had listened with great attention to the statement of his hon. friend, the mover, and to the explanations which had been given by the right hon. the secretary of state, and his learned friend the attorney-general, and he was reduced to the necessity of stating, that he was by no means satisfied with the explanations that had been given. He should leave out of the argument altogether the question as to whether the practice, contended for on the one hand, and opposed on the other, were or were not inconvenient or inexpedient. He did not object to the reformation of the practice, but to the mode in which it was attempted to be introduced. He and his friends objected to the measure, because there did not seem to be a sufficient degree of feeling for the claims of a respectable provincial legislature, which, although subordinate to parliament, had a right to substantial justice at their hands. He considered that his hon. friend was entitled to the gratitude of the country, as well as of that particular island, for bringing the question before the House; nor could he agree in the justice of the charge which had been made against him, of departing from the original notice of his motion; for surely so important an alteration in the only criminal court in that island was to all intents and purposes, a change in the criminal law of the land; and he thought the terms of the motion were perfectly applicable to such a change. His learned friend, the attorney-general, had said, that they had had ample time to appeal, as the opinion of the law officers of the Crown had been given twelve months ago; but his learned friend had not told the House at what time that opinion had been forwarded, or when the first step was taken by government. The formal notification which was given on the 9th of this month was what they had to deal with. His hon. friend, the mover, himself a member of the House of Keys, who was peculiarly bound to contend for their claims in parliament, and who might justly be supposed acquainted with the usage and practice of the island, had stood up in his place in the House, and stated that the usage had always been, that a majority of the House of Keys had been always essential to a decision of the court of gaol delivery. Their presence was always considered essential to the execution of the sentence of the supreme court. He only re-stated the opinion of
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The Attorney General
said, in explanation, that he thought he had given a full contradiction to the statement of the hon. mover, that the presence of the House of Keys, or a majority of them, Was at any time essential to the validity of any verdict. Such was not the case. On an inspection of the documents submitted to him, he was of opinion, that they had no such, right as that which they claimed.
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Mr. W. Courtenay
said, it appeared to him, that the real question which the House had to determine was, whether his right hon. friend, the secretary of state, had acted properly in the course which he had pursued [cries of "no, no"]. He contended that it was; for all those who had spoken on the other side of the House, had put the question in that shape. What the secretary of state had to do was this: to declare how practically the judicature of the island was to be administered; and he had very properly, exercising a sound caution, intrenched himself under those wise guards which his situation afforded him. What was to be done? How was the governor to act? Was the administration of justice to stand still, or was the secretary of state to hesitate in giving him the best advice he could procure? It appeared to him, that he had no other alternative but the course he had pursued. The question was, whether the governor was bound to summon these parties or not? He should not discuss the question as to the propriety of the House of Keys forming a part of the criminal court. The only point was, whether they had exercised this usage rightfully, or whether they should be now deprived of it.
The House divided. Ayes 28: Noes 96.—Majority for the motion, 2.
List of the Majority.
Abercromby, hon. J.
Lamb, hon. G.
Althorp, lord
Monck, J. B.
Baring, A.
Mackintosh, sir J.
Bright, H.
Robarts, A. W.
Brown, D.
Robarts, col.
Bury, lord
Rumbold, C. E.
Calcraft, J.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Duncannon, vis.
Sefton, lord
Ellice, E.
Wood, alderman
Grattan, J.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Guise, sir W,
Warre, J.
Gurney, Hudson
Williams, John
Hamilton, lord A.
TELLERS.
James, W.
Curwen, J. C.
Kennedy, T. F.
Hume, J.
Kemp, T. P.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, February 19, 1824
GAME LAWS.]
Earl Grosvenor
stated, that a petition praying for an alteration in the Game Laws had been put into his hands, but as there was some irregularity in the wording of it he should abstain from presenting it. He should, however, avail himself of the opportunity to say a few
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 19, 1824
WINE DUTIES.]
Mr. T. Wilson
, in presenting a petition against the present high duties on foreign wines from Mr. James Warre, a wine-merchant in London, called the attention of the chancellor of the exchequer to it, as proving beyond a doubt that, in matters of revenue, two and two did not always make four. It appeared from the statement of the petitioner, that in 1801, when the duly was 8
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Mr. Hume
expressed his surprise that the right hon. gentleman had not taken some notice of the observations made by the hon. member for London. He trusted that the right hon. gentleman would give the House some information on this point on the 23rd; and that if he did not then give some prospect of having these duties reduced, some hon. member would bring forward a specific motion for their reduction. He was convinced that by taking off half the duty on French wines, tire quantity consumed would be more than doubled, and that the benefit to the revenue would in consequence be considerable. Besides, smuggling would be prevented; and by that means a sum of a million a year now expended on the preventive service, would be entirely saved to the revenue of the country.
BANK OF ENGLAND—BALANCES AND CHARGE OF MANAGEMENT.]
Mr. Grenfell,
in rising to move for the production of the papers which he had annually moved for, respecting the Bank of England, said, that before he proceeded to remark on the accounts which were the object of his motion, he would, with the permission of
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that with respect to what had fallen from the hon. gentleman, as to the right of calling upon the Bank to furnish ah account of the Bank-notes issued, he confessed he thought it would be extremely hard upon the Bank to expect, under the circumstances in which they stood towards the public, that they should, as a matter of course, furnish such an account. He would not go so far as to say, that there might not be circumstances which would justify the House in calling for such an account; but he could not concur with the hon. gentleman, as to the justice or expediency of calling for it as a mere matter of course. With respect to the other topics which the hon. member had introduced, as he had no objection to his motion, he did not think it necessary to enter into them at any length. The subject was not before the House, and no practical result could follow from discussing it on the present occasion. The hon. gentleman had stated most accurately, that within the last few years, the balances in the hands of the Bank had been greatly diminished, and rendered available to the public service. The Bank had most readily acquiesced in the arrangements by which the amount of those balances had been diminished. With respect to the charge for the management of the public debt, he did not quite understand whether it was the intention of the hon. gentleman to call upon the House to express any specific opinion as to the expediency of reducing that charge. He would not pretend to offer any decided opinion upon a question of law, but it certainly did appear to him, that the grounds upon which the law officers of the Crown had given their opinion as to the right of the Bank to claim an adherence to the agreement made in the time of Mr. Perceval, were most solid and substantial. He could not think, therefore, that the House would be justified in calling upon the Bank, whether they would or not, to manage the public debt at a reduced charge. The House would recollect, that some years ago, the Bank consented to a reduction of charge with respect to all that portion of the public debt which exceeded a given amount, by way of general compromise. As long as the Bank charter lasted, he
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Mr. Hume
said, it was of very great importance, that his majesty's ministers should take immediate steps to free themselves from the trammels in which they had long been held by the Bank. As the interest of money was now nearly on a level with what it was when the Bank lent a large sum to government, he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not listen to any application for a renewal of the Bank charter, but would pay off every shilling that had been borrowed from the Bank. It would not be difficult to do that, as the 3 per cents were at par. Let the country gentlemen recollect, that the Bank were now acting as pawnbrokers on a large scale, and were lending money on estates—a system entirely contrary to the original intention of that institution. The intention was, that they should be ready, on any emergency, to discount for the public interest, for the benefit of trade and commerce. Now, I what did this body really do? They kept up discounts above the current rate of the day. They kept up the rate of discount at 4 per cent, when every where else it could be obtained at 3 per cent. He could not accede to the opinion of his hon. friend, that it was inexpedient to call for an account of the issues of Bank-notes. He thought the House ought to have before it a return of the amount of discounts effected by the Bank. He only wanted the amount of the discounts, he did not seek for the names of individuals. It was said, that this monopolizing company had given great assistance to the country, and that trade and commerce could not go on without them. But what assistance had they given? Circumstances were now changed; and, without any aid from them, trade and commerce were going on
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Sir H Parnell
said, that he thought the House should no longer delay to turn its attention to the expediency of renewing the charter of the Bank of England. Heretofore, it had been the regular custom to renew the charter several years before the existing charter had expired. The last renewal was made when the existing charter had eleven years to run: The present charter had nine years only to continue, and he felt very anxious to prevent the making of any agreement between the government and the Bank for a renewal, without a full examination of the policy of again conferring upon the Bank of England any exclusive privilege. The practice had been, for government to
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Mr. Manning
said, he did not mean to oppose the hon. member's motion. The Bank had ever shown the greatest readiness to lay its affairs before the public. He had no objection whatever to the account of the public balances in the hands of the Bank, nor to the amount of the charges for managing the public debt, being produced. With respect to the returns made to the Stamp-office, which had been alluded to by the hon. mover, they would undoubtedly be continued for public purposes. The hon. member for Aberdeen had thought it quite right that the amount of the issues of Bank-notes should be laid before the House: but, surely, it was rather novel to ask for a list of bills, or to inquire into any retail transactions of a banker. If they once entered into this minute examination, he saw no mode of preventing a constant recurrence to it. The hon. mover had spoken of the large sums that were made by the Bank for the management of the public debt; at the same time that he did not deny the accuracy and promptitude with which the public business was conducted. The management of the debt was not, however, overpaid; for it should be observed, that the Bank were obliged to run the risk of forgeries in the transfer of stock. The charge for managing the public debt was exactly 7
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Mr. Ellce
said, that the hon. director had totally misrepresented the argument of his hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen. His hon. friend had not made it a ground of charge against the Bank, that they had advanced money to the landed interest; on the contrary, he had contended, that if the government paid off the debt to the Bank, that corporation would be enabled to lend their money at a cheaper rate. With respect to the propriety of that House requiring from the Bank a statement of the amount of their notes in circulation, he admitted, that if the Bank were merely a corporate body, without any extraordinary privileges, like the Bank of Scotland, they would have no right to call upon them for such an account. But, the situation of the Bank of England was an exception to all general rules. It was a great monopolizing body, enjoying privileges which belonged to no other corporation, and to no other class of his majesty's subjects. Those privileges were granted for the benefit of commerce; but, instead of employing their capital for the advantage of trade, as was intended on its original establishment, the whole conduct of the Bank had been directly opposed to the commercial interests of the country. It was difficult, he knew, to find a set of men in that House to take this view of the subject; because the system of the Bank was in favour of the great capitalists. If a great capitalist went into the market, the conduct of the Bank did not affect him in borrowing; but it did affect the rate of discount between an individual and his banker, and it sensibly affected men of moderate capital. While others would be content to discount for 3½,the Bank kept up the rate to 4 per cent. As the Tariff of the Bank of England was a rule to all the other banks in the country, every person who went for discount to his banker, was obliged to pay 4
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Mr. Pearse
contended, that the conduct of the Bank did not deserve the censure which had been passed upon it. The directors had not been induced to refuse the accounts, because they were afraid to produce them, but because they did not conceive it fair, or warranted by the occasion. With regard to the balances, four millions sounded high in a round sum: but the House was mistaken, if it supposed that the Bank derived such vast advantage from it. The total was made up of various small sums under sixty different heads of account; and therefore could not be productive of very great profits.
Mr. Baring
said, he thought it was premature to be discussing at the present moment the question of renewing, or not renewing, the Bank charter; but if any persons believed that the country would be able to get on without any such establishment as a Bank, or without an establishment a good deal like what the Bank was at present, he differed from such persons in opinion, and he thought that they would find themselves mistaken. With the management of the public debt he would not meddle, for it was a subject which had been already canvassed over and over again. The question of the balances, as it seemed to him, had always been most unfairly stated by the hon.
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Mr. Hudson Gurney
said, that though the right of the House, now that the Bank paid in specie, to call on them for a return of their notes in circulation might perhaps, be questionable, he thought it matter of great public interest, that the amount should be periodically known; as, in point of fact, the Bank issues, payable in specie or not, had an immense influence on all money transactions: and he would put it to the Bank Directors themselves, whether, in continuing to give the public such information, they would not consult their own convenience, and indeed safety: as any alarm which at any time might arise, might bring the same sort of ruin on them, as took place in 1797, and be infinitely increased, by an exaggerated idea of the amount of their notes in circulation: the effect of concealment then having been, that Paine had estimated the notes of the Bank at sixty millions, when it was found they were only nine.
Mr. Maberly
said, he considered the profit which the Bank of England derived from the management of the public debt much more than they had a right to receive; and he thought it would be very adviseable that a committee should be appointed to examine the matter, and determine what profit the Bank should receive; and if, as had been stated, 100,000
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Mr. Monck
said, he did not conceive the Bank was enabled by its charter to lend money on mortgages. He knew the word "pledges" was introduced; but that referred to gold and silver, and merchandize belonging to merchants, and if mortgages had been contemplated, they would, no doubt, have been introduced. Nothing could be more dangerous to the public, than for the Bank to invest its capital in mortgages. What would be the situation of the country in case of a war, if the capital of the Bank was tied up in mortgages the Bank would be coming down to that House, having invested, perhaps, twelve or thirteen millions of capital, with a statement of their distresses; they would be obliged to stop payment in money: and then we should see renewed all the evils from which we were only now recovering. If any illustration were wanted of the state of things which he was endeavouring to describe, he might advert to the failure of the country banks in 1815. Many of those banks were solvent in effects; but for those effects they were unable to get money, and thereby desolation was spread around the entire country. They now found the Bank of England exactly fol-
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The motion was agreed to.
GAOL LAWS AMENDMENT BILL—TREAD-MILL.]
Mr. Secretary Peel
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the Gaol act passed in the last session. It had been found, upon carrying that act into execution, that there were one or two particulars which impeded its operation, and to amend it in these respects was the object of his present motion. In the first place, the act as it now stood required certain things to be done at the general quarter sessions in each county. The counties of York and Lincoln being divided into districts,
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Sir E. Knatchbull
concurred entirely with the right hon. secretary, in the amendments which he proposed, and deprecated the practice of keeping prisoners
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Sir T. Lethbridge
took that opportunity of complaining of the hardship and injustice which was experienced by the land-owners in being compelled to pay the whole expense of the administration of criminal justice in each county. That expense was entirely defrayed out of the county rates, and had undergone so rapid an increase within the last fifty years, that it was now a very important charge. He had looked into the accounts of his own county for some years past, and, without troubling the House at any length, with the particulars of the great increase, he would merely state, that in the year 1761 the charge for printing was 33
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Colonel Wood
rose also for the purpose of suggesting to the right hon. gentleman an alteration in the consolidated gaol act of the last session; he meant so far as related to the classification clauses. If they were to be carried into execution, it could only be done at an expense which the smaller counties were ill able to bear, and which moreover appeared to be quite unnecessary. In Breconshire, the county which he had the honour to represent, the gaol Consisted of four yards, four day-
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Mr. Hobhouse
rose for the purpose of calling the right hon. gentleman's attention to the injurious consequences of the introduction of the tread-mill into the prison discipline. Notwithstanding the reports which the right hon. gentleman had received respecting it, he (Mr. H.) thought that a mere inspection of the machine was sufficient to prove its inadequacy to the purpose for which it was intended. All the persons sent to it were exposed to the same degree of labour; without any allowance being made for difference of strength and constitution. The committee on prison discipline had furnished even a more cogent reason why punishment should be in some degree modified, when they denounced it as a dangerous instrument of oppression in the hands of wanton and ignorant persons. He was happy to see the promptitude with which the secretary of state for the home department had met the gross misapplication of this system in a recent case where magistrates had contended for the power of dooming persons to the treadmill before trial. How any living beings could, for one single instant, have presumed that they were justified in such a misapplication, appeared to him a most extraordinary phenomenon. And (said Mr. Hobhouse) I must be allowed here to say, that if the magistracy of this kingdom evince such a promptitude to exercise powers of harshness and oppression, and unless such a spirit be met by the resistance of this House, and of the government, that body, which have, perhaps too hastily, been called a blessing, will dege-
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Alderman Wood
could not coincide in the fears of his hon. friend, as to the apprehension of any excess of punishment from the introduction of the tread-mill. That system of labour had been in practice in the city of London for the last hundred years, on the commercial quays; and he, therefore, could not see any reason to suppose that that portion of labour which was voluntarily undertaken by the labouring classes, could operate prejudicially as a species of prison discipline. In the gaol of Newgate a severer kind of labour was made applicable to the wants of the prison, and no bad effects had been experienced from it. With respect to the proposition thrown out by the hon. member for Somersetshire, he should only say, that complaints of expense came with a very bad grace from a county whose prison and whose prison discipline had been the subject of censure in a parliamentary report. As to the expenses attendant on the administration of criminal justice, he begged to say is answer to
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Sir C. Cole
stated the severe hardship which the new law imposed upon the counties in Wales. The greatest number of prisoners that he ever knew to have been in the gaol of Glamorganshire were 18. The annual average was six; and yet, under the classification of prisoners, the expense to the county would be 5000
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Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that in reply to the observations of the hon. baronet, the member for Somerset, he should only observe, that he would willingly attend to any suggestion, which would afford the best means of giving the fullest information to parliament, on the subject to which the hon. baronet had alluded. But he was persuaded that, for a due control on the expenditure which local burthens created, the local magistracy was best calculated to devise the means. To place such a duty on a public officer for the country generally, was, in his judgment, most objectionable; and would lead to a much larger expenditure, and to a less efficient check. He must be allowed to add, that if great burthens arose in counties from the expenses of criminal prosecutions, the certain method to reduce the amount, was by a salutary and efficient system of prison regulation. With respect to what had fallen from his hon. friends, the members for the principality, with every disposition to attend to the particular cases, he felt great difficulty in. admitting the principle that there should be no classification of Welsh prisons. In his present view of their objections, however, he should merely throw out as a suggestion, that though it was impossible to admit the exemption claimed, yet he thought the difficulty might be met, by three or four Welsh counties combining to erect a prison for themselves. The purposes of classification would, in that case, be fully answered. With reference to what had fallen from the hon. member for Westminster, he really wished that hon. gentleman would take the trouble to
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Leave was given to bring in the bill.
JURIES LAWS CONSOLIDATION BILL.]
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he had next to address the House on a subject of considerable importance; namely, the consolidating, and in some degree amending, the various acts relative to the summoning and challenging of juries. It was wholly unnecessary, in this period of our history, or in that House, to pass any eulogium on that great barrier of public security. Neither would it be supposed that any measure he was about to introduce was intended to weaken, in the slightest degree, the efficiency of that admirable system. His object was, to consolidate all the various statutes now in existence, and in some particulars to amend the jury enactments. When he assured the House that there existed no less than fifty different statutes applicable to the summoning, the qualifications, and the challenging of jurors, the very existence of such a fact would shew the propriety of consolidating all those various enactments into one act.
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Sir J. Newport
expressed his earnest hope, that some similar measure would be extended to Ireland, where the abuses on the subject were such as almost to amount to a surrender of the administration of justice into hands wholly unfit to hold it. When the measure should be brought before the House, he would take an opportunity of staling which of its provisions might be advantageously applied to Ireland. He did not believe that the same bill could be made to embrace Ireland. For many reasons, the measure must be separate. But with the local knowledge which he possessed of the great evil of the law, as it now existed in Ireland, and of the gross oppression which was the result of the lax administration even of that law, in consequence of the subordinate hands into which the administration of justice fell, and of the prejudices and local jealousies which operated to its perversion, he should not be doing his duty were he not to claim for Ireland the benefit of some similar measure.
Mr. Wodehouse
highly approved of the measure, and dwelt on the expediency of introducing a bill to enforce the attendance of special jurymen, who, in many counties, were very negligent of their duty. He was desirous also that returns should be regularly made of the persons summoned to serve as special jurymen, especially in the courts of Middlesex. Disclaiming the slightest intention of casting any reflection on the learned persons presiding in those courts, he could not help thinking, that in some of them, especially in the court of Exchequer, there was a considerable laxity of proceeding on this subject: He repeated his entire approbation of the proposed measure. By a steady and quiet attention to such subjects, though no noisy fame might be attached to it—the right hon. secretary would confer the greatest benefit on the country, and one which the great body of the people would duly appreciate.
Mr. Hume
observed, that he had last session moved for returns respecting this subject. He had long been perfectly satisfied, that the composition of juries ought to be left to chance; that was, that
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Mr. George Lamb
did not mean to oppose the right hon. gentleman's motion, nor would he have risen at all, had it not been for what had just fallen from the hon. member for Aberdeen. He must say, that he regarded with some jealousy these consolidation acts. They were seldom purely such. There was always some new provision which appeared so desirable, that flesh and blood could not resist introducing it. For instance, the right hon. gentleman no sooner proposed a consolidation of the jury laws, than the
251
Dr. Lushington
said, he was very unwilling to engage in the present discussion, but he could not allow the observations which had just been made to pass without remark. His hon. friend who spoke last thought that parliament ought to be satisfied with the existing statutes, in the confusion in which they were; and conceived that there was danger in consolidating them, because in the operation some error might creep in, which it might be afterwards necessary to rectify. The answer to this was, that here was a great existing evil; so great, indeed, that it was almost impossible, on any given subject, to ascertain what the statute-law was. He would venture to assert, that there was no lawyer in the land, however learned—not even the noble lord at the head of the law in this country—who could say, with reference to any subject, that there might not be some statute respecting it, of which he had no knowledge. The multiplicity and confusion of our statutes constituted one of the greatest grievances
252
Sir E. Knatchbull
was much in favour of a consolidation of the laws relating to the impanelling of juries; although he was not at present prepared to admit the necessity of extending the qualifications of jurors.
Leave was granted to bring in the bill.
CATHOLIC DISABILITIES—PERSONS IN OFFICE IN IRELAND.]
Mr. Grattar
rose to submit a motion to which he could not anticipate any reasonable objection. It was merely for some returns as to the names and religious profession of certain individuals filling particular offices in Ireland; and his motion was, in effect,
253
254
Mr. Goulburn
said, it had not been his good fortune to be in the house when notice of this motion was given, and it was only by accident that he had seen it in the paper. But, as it stood there, it was by no means so detailed as the motion now submitted by the hon. gentleman; for it was there described as a "return of the names and religious persuasions of all persons connected with the general administration of justice, receipt and management of the revenue, the general manufacture and education of Ireland." He thought that every body, upon reflection, must see a sufficient reason for his refusing these returns. It would be the first time that this house, by an order of its own, had ever thought fit to call on certain bodies in the community to make a return of the religious persuasion of the various persons of whom they were composed, or of those of the officers they employed. Hon. gentlemen must be aware, that even in the case of the common population returns, which it was considered expedient to make at stated periods, an act of parliament was always passed to authorize the degree of power necessary to be exercised, in order to get such returns prepared. Yet, in a motion of this inquisitorial nature, it was thought sufficient that an hon. member should merely come down and move the returns as matter almost of course. It had, indeed, been the policy of the legislature to require, that the candidates for certain offices in the state should make a profession of faith before they were allowed to enter upon them, but such a test was never required of those who had already entered, and were in the enjoyment of offices. This would be a principle quite new to our constitution, and one which he would ever oppose. The motion called for the return, not only of grand jurors and petty jurors, but also of all persons connected with the adminis-
255
Lord Althorp
said, that when the House considered, that five-sixths of the people of Ireland were Catholics, and that scarcely one of them had been appointed since the year 1793 to those offices which, by the law, they were eligible to fill, they could not suppose it was the mere effect of chance. Much more fair was it to say, that it was the effect of that exclusive system which had been so long acted on in Ireland, and which had produced so many misfortunes. The right hon. gentleman had said, that he never considered the religious opinions of persons whom he appointed to offices; but, if that principle had been acted upon in Ireland, how could the House possibly account for the fact, that so very few Catholics had been appointed to offices of emolument in Ireland. The right hon. gentleman had said that the motion would, if granted, lead to the exercise of inquisitorial power. Now, there was nothing inquisitorial about it. Was it not perfectly notorious who were Catholics and who were Protestants? The object of the motion was one of considerable importance. In Ireland, the returns moved for might not be of so much importance, because there the exclusion of the Catholics was perfectly well known; but in England the fact was otherwise, and it was of great importance that those returns should be laid on the table of that House, in order to show to the people of this country the real extent of the Catholic grievances. For his own part, he was not at all aware, until he had made particular inquiries, of the small number of Catholics who had been appointed to offices of honour or of emolument in Ireland. The returns would tend to shew how few were excluded by law, and how many were excluded by prejudice. Such was
256
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that the noble lord had in a great degree anticipated the observations which he intended to have made. The object in view was, to ascertain whether the act of 1793 had or had not been carried into effect. How could the House come at that fact, save by the returns which his hon. friend had moved for? The House had a right to be acquainted with the fact, whether Roman Catholics had or had not been admitted to those offices to which, by law, they might have been appointed. He had the act before him—he saw the offices to which Catholics might have been appointed. On the other hand, he had a document, under the hand of a gentleman of respectability, stating that Catholics were not admitted to any one of those offices.
Mr. Goulburn
Without meaning any disrespect to the gentleman who made the statement, I must say, that it is not the fact.
Mr. Hobhouse
resumed: The right hon. gentleman might be right: the question was one of importance; conflicting assertions were made; and the returns which had been called for could alone show who was right. The noble lord had said that nineteen out of twenty of those appointed were Protestants; and an hon. friend below him, had stated, that they amounted to 49 out of 50. As to what the right hon. gentleman had said, that that House had no right to inquire as to who were Protestants, or who were Catholics, was it not the daily practice of that House to make inquiries? Would the right hon. gentleman take upon him to say, that the persons who held offices in Ireland would object to answer the question as to their religion? No, they would answer with alacrity: these inquisitorial horrors existed only in the imagination of the right hon. gentleman. The object of the motion was, to show, how completely the religion of a man operated as a bar to honour, and to emolument. The people of Ireland were, like the people of England, and like every other people in the world,
257
Mr. Goulbrn
said, he really did not.
258
Mr. Hobhouse
.—Then, if the right hon. gentleman did not know, he ought to inquire how many Roman Catholics were employed by the government in any official appointments in Ireland. Could any knowledge be more necessary for the secretary for Ireland? The return now moved for would shew, that all the boastings of parliament, as to what they had done for Ireland since 1793, were vain; that they had only kept that predominating party in power, which claimed not only power, but arms also, exclusively. To that party arms had been given, which never would be laid down but with their power; and, indeed, it was only last session, he believed, that one of their petitions from Londonderry honestly set forth, that having won their rights at the era of the glorious revolution, by the victories which their ancestors had gained under king William, they could not be expected to surrender the arms with which those rights had been won. Having never before spoken upon the subject, the House would pardon him for trespassing upon their attention. It was his opinion, that Englishmen could not too often enter into the discussion of Irish affairs. They should consider Ireland as an integral part of their country, and watch with common solicitude over her interests and her rights. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would not persist in objecting to the motion; if he did, undoubtedly it would be renewed; the House must have the returns. He hoped that that part of the government who professed more liberal views towards Ireland would act a candid and manly part, and would not resist the production of returns which would place in a striking point of view, the effects of that deplorable system of misrule which had been so long upheld. To expose that system would be to insure its downfal. Was it to be endured, that the people of Ireland should be for ever treated with insult and injustice?—If such a system were persevered in, could they expect the friendship of Ireland? He did not say that they would not receive it, but of this he was sure, that they would not deserve it. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would reconsider the grounds of his objection, and would' be guided by the opinion of his more liberal friends.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he could see no reason why the motion should be granted, embracing, as it did, a principle which would call upon every man
259
Mr. Hume
said, that the instances stated by the right hon. gentleman were only exceptions to the general rule. He was glad the right hon. gentleman had stated the fact, because it went to shew that appointments made by the Treasury here were more likely to be regulated by a fairer standard than appointments made in Ireland. What he wished was, to have power taken out of the hands of that faction in Ireland, who were always ready to abuse it. On a former occasion he had stated in that House, that few, if any, Catholics were appointed to offices of emolument in Ireland. The right hon. secretary for Ireland had said, he was wrong; but it now turned out, that the right hon. gentleman knew nothing at all about the matter. His charge was, that the people of Ireland were irritated and offended, because the few were preferred, and the many were neglected. He would ask whether the opposition that was given to the motion, was not likely to confirm the suspicions which already existed? The right hon. gentleman had talked of inquisitorial power. Was it inquisitorial, to ask a question which would be answered voluntarily and with pleasure? He could have wished that the conscience of the right hon. gentleman had been equally tender, with respect to the various acts of oppression which he (as the organ of government, had carried into effect in lreand—acountry which suffered under more than Turkish degradation. [Hear!]. Yes, it was his firm opinion, that the Greeks
260
Mr. Agar Ellis
thought the motion ought to be acceded to by the secretary for Ireland, if it were only for his own satisfaction; for as he did not seem to know the proportion in which the offices were divided between Protestants and Roman Catholics, he ought not to refuse that which would give him correct information on the subject. It ought not to be suffered to go forth to the Roman Catholics of Ireland, that no motion tending to give them the same advantage as their Protestant fellow-subjects, in situations to which they were alike eligible, could obtain the sanction of that House.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, it was unfortunate for the inference drawn by the hon. member for Aberdeen, that the two Roman Catholic appointments spoken of were not originally made by the English government. They were originally made by the Irish government, and in the late arrangements by the Treasury, they were continued. So that it was unfair to infer, that these were exceptions to the general rule of the Irish government. With respect to the motion before the House, he would say, that if the object was, to show that the Roman Catholics had not their fair share of patronage, the present mode was a bad one. Let the object be fairly stated; let it be shown, if it could be shown, that Roman Catholics, being in other respects equally eligible in point of qualification were excluded solely, because they were Roman Catholics, and let the
onus
261
Sir J. Newport
said, he could very easily imagine the object of those who maintained the fitness of exclusion, and thereby kept Ireland a divided people, in resisting this motion. They wished to hoodwink the natives of England, by making them believe that the question was of small importance, because it only applied to the offices included in the act of 1793. As long as the odious distinction was preserved, the act of 1793 would be inadequate; and it was very important to show that at this moment, with very few exceptions, the Roman Catholics were not in possession of any of the advantages then
262
263
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that the latter part of the right hon. baronet's speech had turned upon topics, in some of which he felt with him, though he did not think the present moment exactly suited to their discussion. The last topic, as it went to show the interest which the humblest individual might feel in the question of eligibility to the highest office, and that therefore the hope of such office should not be shut out from any, was one which addressed itself to the feelings of all, and the principle of which he had often exhausted himself in upholding. But, the subject of discussion was not now, whether new privileges should be granted—whether all the offices of the state, from the highest to the lowest, should be open to Roman Catholics? On that point he perfectly agreed with the right hon. baronet. What he had always sought on behalf of the Roman Catholics had been eligibility; but, the motion now under consideration went to actual election. What he had so long contended for was, that there should be no bar between the Crown and its subjects—that there should exist no religious disqualifications; but he had never conceived that the effect of accomplishing that object would be to point the attention of the Crown to one class only, and to make it a crime in the administrators under the Crown to distribute office fairly and impartially. The advocates for the Catholic claims asserted, as a general principle, that all the king's subjects were equally eligible, but that statutes had supervened, limiting unjustly the power of the Crown to reward meritorious services. The object, therefore, was, to remove those disqualifying statutes; and as the hon. member for Westminster had said, in reference to a passage of great beauty, to enable the rays of the royal bounty to shine equally upon all. It was singular, therefore, that the right hon. baronet did not see that the mode of inquisition he wished now to be set on foot was directy contrary to the principle on which the Catholic question had been promoted, and to the usual policy of parliament on all subjects of the same nature. By the law of the land, certain persons, not Roman Catholics, could not be employed in
264
in toto:
265
Mr. Hutchinson
said, that during the present session, endeavours had been made to shew, by details, that Ireland had been badly governed, and that the Roman Catholics were a persecuted race. Its warmest friends might, perhaps, at this moment, despair of success in bringing forward the general discussion; they might despair of inducing ministers to alleviate the miseries of Ireland, by promoting conciliation; and therefore were resolved, as far as was possible, that the House and the country should be in possession of all the information connected with the subject. For this purpose various motions had been and would hereafter be made, to shew, that the benefits intended by the law, were withheld by
266
Mr. Grattan
said, that he had not brought forward his motion with more ceremony, because he really thought that, as it was only the consequence of papers already moved for by a noble lord (Althorp), it would not be resisted. He should divide the House, and not content himself with receiving merely a ministerial negative.
The House divided: Ayes 11, Noes 38.
List of the Minority
Browne, Dom.
Lamb, hon. G.
Cavendish, lord H.F.C.
Monck, J. B.
Ellis, G. A.
Newport, sir J.
Hamilton, lord A.
Wood, M.
Hobhouse, J. C.
TELLERS.
Hutchinson, hon. C. H.
Althorp, viscount.
Hume, J.
Grattan, J.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, February 20, 1824
GAME LAWS.]
Lord Suffield
, not having been in the House yesterday when a noble earl called their lordships' attention to the Game Laws, wished now to say a few words on that subject. When the question as to altering the laws had formerly been agitated, it was alleged, that sufficient evidence for forming an opinion did not exist. He wished, therefore, to remind their lordships, that they had before them the report made to the House of Commons last session. That report had also been ordered to be printed for the use of their lordships House, and was accessible to them. However, when the bill for altering the game laws might come, as he expected it would, it was possible that some noble lord might even then insist that the evidence was not
267
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 20, 1824
WOOL TAX—PETITION FOR REPEAL OF.]
Mr. T. Wilson
, in rising to present a petition against the Wool Tax, said, he regretted that he was obliged to occupy the time of the House on such subjects; but, while such impolitic and oppressive taxes remained, the House would of necessity be continually besieged with petitions against it. The duty of 6
d.
Mr. Robertson
observed, that the prosperity of the agricultural interest followed that of the commercial interest, and that unless every facility was given to the commerce of the country, the landed proprietors, though their situation was undoubtedly much more prosperous now than it had lately been, would soon be plunged into greater difficulties than they had yet experienced. If the growth of wool were, in any given year, one-tenth greater than that of an average crop, the
268
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
s
s
s
269
Mr. Alderman Thompson
deprecated the impolicy of imposing high duties on low-priced commodities. He concurred in the observations which had fallen from the hon. member, and thought the same arguments applicable to the duty on raw silk. He hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would place that article on the same footing in which it was placed in France, by taking off the duty on importation.
Mr. Alderman Wood
observed, that unless the chancellor of the Exchequer consented to the repeal of the duty on the importation of wool, the manufacturers in this country had come to the resolution of employing agents on the continent to wash the wool, in order to effect a reduction of the duties. The right hon. gentleman would greatly mistake the true interests of the country, if he suffered this tax to continue a year longer.
Sir J. Wrottesley
called the attention of the House to the circumstances under which this tax had been imposed. They would all recollect, that, in the year 1819, when the country was in a state of pro-
270
s.
d.
Ordered to lie on the table.
COAL DUTIES—PETITIONS AGAINST.]
Mr. H. Sumner
presented a petition, against the Coal Duties, from Bermondsey. He expressed his concurrence in the prayer of the Petitioners, and trusted that the chancellor of the Exchequer would take the subject into his serious consideration.
Mr. W. Courtenay
presented a similar petition from Exeter. He observed, that the inhabitants of that city had always shewn themselves most ready to bear the necessary burthens which were imposed on them, but they felt most strongly on the subject of this tax. The great hardship of this tax was, that it pressed with increased severity on those who were already exposed to the greatest difficulties from their local position.
Mr. W. Smith
presented a similar petition from Norwich. The inhabitants of that city did not deny that they were in a state of great prosperity. The population of that city had increased from 30,000 to 50,000, within the last twenty years; but they felt the harshness of a tax, which had been justly the subject of complaint throughout the whole kingdom.
Sir T. Acland
presented several petitions to the same effect, from various towns in Devonshire. The petitioners complained of the tax as unequal, impolitic, and oppressive. As this was the last opportunity he should have of noticing this subject before the chancellor of the Exchequer made his financial statement, he would take the liberty of pressing, most strongly upon the right hon. gentleman, the expediency of taking off, either the whole, or a part of this tax. He concurred in the observation of the hon member for Exeter, that one of the most aggravating circumstances attending this tax was,
271
s.,
s.
Ordered to lie on the table.
ARMY ESTIMATES.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply,
Lord Palmerston
rose to submit to the House a statement of the Army Estimates for the present year. He commenced by saying that any gentleman who had looked into these Estimates, must see that there had been an augmentation of our military force, and an attendant increase of charge. In the first place, he should state, that there were six new regiments to be added to the force of last year, besides 200 men to be added to each of the three veteran battalions, making an augmentation of 4,560 men officers included. There would be an attendant increase of charge of 158.000
l.
l.
l.
272
273
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l
l.
l
l.;
l.
l.;
l.
l
274
l
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Hume
said, if the House were to be influenced by the speech of the noble lord, they would suppose that his motion was to be granted as a matter of course. It appeared to him, that the reasons assigned by the noble lord for the proposed increase, were any thing but satisfactory. The noble lord seemed to think, that because in the course of the last year, the House of Commons on account of the then disturbed appearance of Europe, had waived opposition to the votes, that they admitted the necessity of maintaining 69,000 men; which was the force of last year. Two years ago, when the House addressed his majesty, on the subject of reducing the establishments to the lowest possible state, the government said then, as they said now, that it was impossible to make any further reductions. However they did, in the course of the following recess, make arrangements for reducing 10 or 12,000 men. Last year ministers were allowed to pass their own votes, because no one could say how soon the peace of this country might be disturbed
275
l.
276
277
l
l
l
278
l.
l
279
280
281
l
282
Mr. Brogden
, the chairman of the committee, thought, that unless a specific motion, either for a reduction of expense or of force was made, the hon. member should reserve his general proposition to be made in the House.
Mr. Hume
was aware of the difficulty, but to obviate it he should move, that after the word "That," in the original resolution, all the succeeding words should be omitted, and his amendment substituted.
Mr. Gordon
expressed his anxiety to offer a few observations, in answer to what had fallen from the noble lord relative to the West-India islands. He could not say that he was one of the great body of proprietors connected with those colonies who were so much the object of indiscriminate abuse, both within and without the walls of that House, but he-was to a degree interested in that important question, as he possessed some property in them. It appeared, however, that a considerable number of troops had
283
Sir W. De Crespigny
recommended moderation, on the subject of the West-India colonies.
General Gascoyne
warmly opposed the amendment. Considering the increase which this country had made of colonial territory, he had long been satisfied that our army had been too much reduced; and he believed that his majesty's government were now as thoroughly convinced of that fact as he was. One of the evil consequences attendant on this excessive reduction was, that it was impossible to relieve our brave regiments abroad as
284
285
Mr. Wodehouse
expressed his most anxious hope, that whenever the subject of the West Indies should be introduced, it would be discussed in the most calm and temperate manner. With regard to the condition of some of the regiments stationed in the colonies, it was a subject on which he had strong private and personal feelings; but, let every hon. gentleman who heard him, recollect that what was at present his (Mr. W's) case, might, at another time, be their own. He held in his hand a list of the number of deaths in one of the regiments stationed at Bar-badoes. Since its embarkation from this country it had lost upwards of 20 officers and 500 men. Now, the circumstances under which the regiment was ordered out were these:—It was sent, not as a relief, but as a reinforcement. In consequence of the cry at home for reduction, it was forced out at an unhealthy period of the year; and to that the great mortality which it had experienced was to be attributed. Now, he would ask, whether this was not an occurrence which demanded the most serious consideration? He spoke on the subject from a communication which he had had with an hon. and gallant officer, formerly a member of that House, a man as highly respected as he was universally known—he meant sir Herbert Taylor. The hon. member for Aberdeen had thought proper to say, that those who were on his (Mr. W's) side of the House, followed their leaders without thought or consideration. He, however, for one, although he conscientiously supported his majesty's government on most occasions, had formerly expressed his opinion—an opinion which he still retained—that they bad carried the reduction of our naval and military establishments too far. He did not wish to arrogate to himself any peculiar wisdom: but unquestionably it now appeared, that his majesty's ministers thought with him; and he conceived them to be entitled to
286
Mr. Bernal
wished to say a few words with respect to the quartering of troops in the West Indies, although he was not sure whether that belonged to the noble lord's department or to head quarters. He knew well, however, that, when troops were sent to the West Indies, and especially to Jamaica, by an extreme error or oversight, they were not put in proper quarters, but were kept in the neighbourhood of Port Royal or Kingston, instead of being sent up the country, where the atmosphere was healthy. This was a grave consideration, and ought to be invariably attended to. Another fact was, that the troops were not sent at the proper season of the year. He perfectly agreed with the hon. general who had recently spoken, that the system of relief was not sufficient. But, there had been a system of favouritism very injurious in its character. Particular regiments, under the name of "crack regiments," had been treated with partiality. Until this system of favouritism was destroyed—until all distinctions of corps were abolished—until no difference was made between fusileers and light regiments—the existing evil would not be effectually removed. Of late years, a new practice had obtained of sending dragoons to the East Indies. Of this he approved; and it was a practice which he thought might be extended
287
Mr. Hobhouse
said, he felt that he owed an apology to the Committee for addressing them on the present occasion, as he, was afraid he must utter sentiments which would appear quite extraordinary, and antiquated in their nature, and which could expect to meet with no sympathy in that House, and he was afraid he should almost be justified in adding, in the country at large. But it was his duty to speak his own conviction on the present important subject. There was one imperative duty on a zealous member of that House, when he saw either a deficiency, or, an excess of popular feeling; namely, to shew the people to what either must lead. This was the duty of those who were connected with his majesty's government; and it was no less the duty of those who thought they were the more faithful representatives of the popular interest. He was one of those who, in the last session of parliament, complained that England did not assume the attitude which, in the then state of Europe, became a great and mighty nation. We were able to give the law to all Europe, and we ought not to have truckled to her tyrants. As his majesty's government had, however, thought proper to decide differently—as they had left Spain to her fate—as they had declined the honour of standing in that attitude, they ought not now to saddle the
288
289
290
291
292
293
Lord Palmerston
said, that as far as he had been able to collect the opinion of the House, the hon. members for Westminster and Aberdeen were the only gentlemen who intended to oppose the vote; it was therefore unnecessary for him to enter further into the discussion, than to answer some of the objections which they had raised. In the first place, the hon. member for Aberdeen had seemed to consider the reinforcements for the West-India service necessary; for although he had in the early part of his speech denied this, he had afterwards conceded it. But he had said, that he consented to the estimates of the last year, only because it was then expected that the country might be engaged in a war, and that but for that probability he would have proposed a reduction to the amount of 10,000 men. The hon. gentleman might, perhaps, allude to an opinion entertained by himself and his friends; but the noble lord said, he felt it necessary, on his own part, to declare, that such an expectation formed no part of the grounds on which he had solicited the vote of last year. On the contrary, the government had then declared its resolution of remaining strictly neutral, and he could not believe that the House had been induced to agree to the vote for any such reason: he was quite sure that none such had been proposed by him. What were the means by which the hon. gentleman would have the reduction, which he recommended effected? Why, he was of opinion, that if certain measures were adopted the military force at present in Ireland might be withdrawn and applied to the reinforcement of the colonial service. Now, did any man in his senses believe, that if the Catholic question were set at rest to-morrow, it would have such a magic effect upon Ireland, that the force employed there might be safely removed at once—The hon. member had next proposed, that a reduction should be made in the cavalry and the guards. He (lord P.) was prepared to contend, that there was not a larger number of men in those regiments than was fairly proportioned to the infantry of the line; and that it was impossible to reduce them without also reducing the efficiency of that establishment, which even in time of peace, it was necessary to keep up, that armies might be
294
295
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that the noble lord, for the purpose of rounding a period, had exaggerated what had fallen from him. He did not say that he was in the sole possession of the opinions he had expressed; and, at all events, the noble lord might have done justice to the conscientious motives which prompted that expression, even though it had been as ill-timed as he seemed to think it. He was quite satisfied, notwithstanding the ridicule which the noble lord thought his (Mr. H's.) injudicious support had thrown upon constitutional principles, that they remained unhurt by it. He was sure he had done those principles as little harm by his support, as the noble lord had done by his attack.
Colonel Davies
thought the estimate an extravagant one, but he was still not prepared to go the full length of the motion.
Mr. Hume
said, that the only opposition to his amendment had been made on the part of military men, and whoever expected that military men would support a reduction of the army? He could not but regret that the constitutional jealousy which had formerly prevailed against a standing army seemed to have altogether
296
Mr. Calcraft
said, he differed with his hon. friend as to the propriety of a reduction of ten thousand men. He thought he could convince his hon. friend, that the amendment was not tenable. The only reduction which he could with any chance of success, propose, would be in the amount of the proposed augmentation. His hon. friend had said, that this was a constitutional question. Undoubtedly it was a constitutional question; and so it had for years, been urged, on his side of the House to be; until at length, a reduction of the military force to that point, below which it could not with safety to the country be reduced, had taken place. The absence of hon. members could not be defended; but, undoubtedly, if their absence could be at all excused, it was on a question on which they had so often stated their sentiments, and had succeeded in reducing the military force to that standard, which, in their judgment, was necessary for the public safety. His hon. friend had said, that an hon. gentleman was not a fit juror on the present question. To him (Mr. C.), however, no objection of the kind could be made. He conceived himself a fit juror, and his verdict certainly should be against his hon. friend.
The committee divided. For the original motion, 102; for Mr. Hume's amendment, 10.
List of the Minority.
Grattan, J.
Palmer, C. F.
Guise, sir W. B.
Wood, M.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Williams, W.
Johnson, col.
Wilkins, W.
Ingilby, sir W.
TELLER.
Monck, J. B.
Hume, J.
NAVY ESTIMATES.]
Sir G. Clerk
having moved, "That 57,670
l.
s.
Mr. Hume
took that opportunity of calling the attention of the hon. baronet to a subject which was connected with the vote before the committee. He un-
297
Sir G. Clerk
contended, that the workmen had no just ground of dissatisfaction. Until about a year ago the quantity of work had been reduced, instead of diminishing the wages or discharging the men; but the system had been recently changed, and a general reduction of 20 per cent in the price of labour had been effected.
On the resolution, "That 507,000
l.
Mr. Hume
begged to know, whether any remedy had been discovered, and what had been the result of the recent experiments to put a stop to the progress of the dry-rot in the navy?
Sir B. Martin
said, that there was less dry-rot in the navy at present than at any former period. Immersion of the wood in salt water was now practised, and the use of coal-tar discontinued. For the latter circumstance he was sorry; because he believed the use of coal-tar to be attended with good effects. It was quite certain that the dry-rot had greatly decreased since the termination of the war; and he was convinced that the ships which had been built since that period would be of longer duration than any which had been constructed before. In consequence of the allusion which had been made on a former occasion to Mr. Burridge's book on the dry-rot, he had taken the trouble to read that work through, and he did not hesitate to say that it was fallacious from the beginning to the end.
Mr. Hume
observed, that he could not vouch for the truth of all that Mr. Bur-ridge had advanced, but there certainly were some of his statements which deserved to be seriously considered, and he intended to bring them under the notice of the House at a future period. He wished to receive information on two other points; namely, whether the U6e of foreign timber had been abandoned in ship-
298
Sir B. Martin
said, that government had contracted for both foreign and native timber, but that no stipulation had been made that it should be felled at any particular period. When the hon. member should bring the subject of the dry-rot before the House, he would show that the dry-rot had been most destructive to our shipping during the last hundred and fifty years, and that it had only begun to disappear since the conclusion of the war.
Sir J. Wrottesley
said, that the answers to the numerous inquiries he had made upon the subject showed, that the durability of timber was much greater if it were felled in the winter, when the sap was down, than in the spring when it was rising, or in the summer, when it was up.
On the resolution, "That 52,809
l.
s.
d.
Mr. Hume
wished to be informed whether any persons had been sent out to Bermuda to report on the extensive works going on there, and if so, what had been the result?
Sir G. Clerk
answered, that Mr. Jessop had been sent out, and that he had given a very favourable report of the place, as a station for shipping.
Mr. Hume
asked, whether any other report had been made?
Sir G. Clerk
said, that the report of Mr. Jessop was so satisfactory, and he was a man of so much skill and knowledge, that no other information was needed.
Mr. Bright
considered the naval establishment in Bermuda of the utmost importance, and he had some doubts whether ministers were about to ask for money enough to continue the works. It would be thirteen or fourteen years' before they would be completed; and as in the event of war, the island might be easily taken, it was very material that as soon as possible it should be put in a state of defence. He begged to inquire if ministers had done any thing with regard to the settlements made by the United States in the South of Florida? He did not desire, however, that any inconvenient disclosures on the subject should be made.
299
Sir G. Cockburn
said, that although of course this country could not object to the United States making any establishment they pleased upon the coast of Florida, yet that ministers, as was their duty, had kept a watchful eye upon their proceedings. Thus much he felt himself at liberty to say.
On the resolution, "That 911,000
l.
Mr. Calcraft
begged to observe, that he thought the case of the midshipmen was a very hard one as to half-pay. "Whatever had been their services, or however they might be entitled by their skill and merit, it was often totally out of the power of the Admiralty to grant them any promotion. Now, it appeared to him, that it would be but fair and expedient, to select a certain number of midshipmen, on the principle, for example, of length of service. At present, very many in this class of officers were obliged to turn their attention to some other employment for subsistence, and thus, meritorious individuals though they might be, they were lost to the service for ever. He conceived that a certain proportion might be selected, to whom half-pay should be given (and the whole amount could be but small), as a retaining fee, whenever the country might require their services.
Sir G. Clerk
said, that the subject was one of great importance, and had occupied the attention of the Admiralty; but there were many difficulties in the way of it, and he was sure that the particular mode suggested by the hon. member could not be adopted. He might add, that many promotions had of late been made by the Admiralty to lieutenancies, on the ground of length of service alone, and that in this way all the midshipmen had been promoted who had passed examination down to the year 1814.
Mr. Calcraft
said, he was not at all tenacious as to the mode in which the purpose he had in view was effected: but he certainly thought, that in some way or other, provision should be made for a certain number of midshipmen; and he was convinced that no objection would be made by parliament to a vote of 5 or 6,000
l.
Sir G. Cockburn
returned thanks as a naval officer, rather than as a member of the Admiralty board, to the hon. member, for the attention which he uniformly paid
300
Mr. Hume
wished to know, as to the naval officers on half-pay in general, whether they were in the same situation now as they were after the American war—whether, for instance, a lieutenant or other officer could command, or take any situation, in merchant vessels, and under what limitation, without running the hazard of losing his commission?
Sir G. Clerk
said, that a lieutenant might command a merchant vessel, with the leave of the Admiralty. The leave of the Admiralty was necessary; because, by the regulations of the half-pay, which had existed ever since the reign of Geo. 2nd, the officers of the navy on half-pay were obliged to reside at a sea port; but the leave was freely granted, with the exception of the command of small packets where hire was taken for passengers; which was thought to be below the dignity of an officer holding the rank of lieutenant in the navy.
Mr. Hume
.—Did the same regulation as to packets exist at the end of the American war?
Sir G. Clerk
.—Exactly the same.
Mr. Hume
.—I understand that very considerable fees are taken on the leave granted.
Sir G. Clerk
.—A fee is taken.
Mr. Hume
.—This is a great hardship on the officers of the navy, and should be done away with. There was a return some time ago, of 19,000
l.
301
Sir G. Cockburn
observed, that if he had been represented to have said what had just been imputed to him by the hon. member, he could only say, that if persons would look for information to that source which was constantly, and for the purpose, giving a wrong representation of what fell from gentlemen in that House, he was not answerable for such error. What he really did say, on a former night, was, that the masters of the navy were a most useful set of men. It was then observed to him, that originally, every master who chose it, and was judged sufficiently qualified, might rise to the rank of lieutenant; but that that sort of promotion was now put a stop to. His answer had been, that masters could still be promoted, and were now occasionally promoted; and that at one time only, an interval of two years, occurring about 20 years since, had this rule been interrupted. That with regard to other persons rising to be masters, and he meant seamen of course, no other restriction was imposed upon their promotion, but their sustaining a very strict examination as to ability. This was what he had stated at the time; and if he had been wrongly reported, as he generally was, it was no fault of his.
Mr. Hume
said, he had seen no report of the hon. and gallant officer's speech; but such had been his understanding.
The several resolutions were then put and agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, February 23, 1824
COAL DUTIES—PETITIONS FOR REPEAL.]
Numerous petitions were presented from various parts of the country for the repeal of the Duties on Coal. Amongst others,
Mr. Alderman Wood
presented a petition signed by between 3,000 and 4,000 inhabitants of the city of London, against the unequal and unjust tax upon coals. He had already said so much upon the subject, that he should now only observe, that if these duties were not in the number of those which the chancellor of the
302
Mr. Baring
said, that when the worthy alderman moved for the committee, he hoped it would be with a view of inquiring into the whole subject, as well the tax which was paid to the king as that augmentation of the price of coals which resulted from city management, and which, from the debates in the common council, he was led to believe amounted, by the charge of metage and the city regulations, to between 4
s
s
Mr. Littleton
said, that when the time should come that this tax should be proposed for repeal, it would meet with his most decided opposition, unless it were a repeal of the most gradual nature.
Mr. Alderman Wood
said, the hon. member for Taunton had swelled the charge of metage, which was but 4
d
s
s
Mr. Baring
observed, that he had not said, that the duties of metage amounted to 4
s
s
s
s
Mr. Grenfell
said, it was a little too much, when petitions were pouring in from all parts of the country against these duties, for the hon. member for Staffordshire to rise and declare his opposition, because it would interfere with the interests of his constituents; as if the interests of the collieries of Staffordshire and Newcastle were to be every thing, and the interests of the consumers nothing.
Mr. Littleton
said, he had not stated, that he would oppose the repeal of the tax without qualification; but had merely stated, that he would oppose the measure, unless the repeal was attempted in the most gradual manner.
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, it was important that the whole subject should be inquired into, embracing the mode of delivery, both at Newcastle and London. Much blame had been thrown on the coal-owners in the north; but he would deny that they merited it. It was stated,
303
Ordered to lie on the table.
COUNTY COURTS BILL—RECOVERY OF SMALL DEBTS.]
Lord Althorp
having brought in his bill, "for preventing delays and expenses in the Proceedings of County Courts, and for the more easy and speedy recovery of Small Debts,"
Mr. Hobhouse
said, he fully concurred in all the eulogiums that had been so deservedly pronounced upon the noble lord for this very useful measure: but he wished to call the attention of the noble lord to two alterations which were entitled to his consideration. It was true, that they would more especially affect his own constituents and the city of London. The first amendment he would suggest, related to the alteration respecting the statute of limitation from six years to two; and he should propose, that creditors should have the power to renew their demand at the end of every two years, by filing an affidavit at a small expense. In London and Westminster, where the persons who dealt with tradesmen frequently left their residence, those tradesmen would be subject to frequent losses if this were not done. The House was probably not aware that there was a society in Westminster, of tradesmen, who kept an account of the residences of different people who owed money to them, where information could be procured; and he had been informed by one of the leading persons of that society, that they had upon their list at that moment no less than 2,000 persons whose residence they did not know; but the majority of whom were considered good paymasters, if they could be found. The House would therefore see, that, under such circumstances, these small debts would be irrecoverably lost. The second point would be, to give the debtor the privilege of suing, not at the residence of the debtor, for it would be impossible that they could follow people for small debts to York, and Lancaster, and Gloucester, and so on. He should not expect an answer from the noble lord at present, but he considered these two points of such importance, that he wished to take that opportunity of impressing them upon the attention of the noble lord; for, notwith-
304
The bill was then read a first time.
FINANCIAL SITUATION OF THE COUNTRY.]
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to make his promised Expose of the Financial Situation of the Country; and addressed the Committee as follows:
*
*
305
l
l
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l
The Customs, I take at
£.11,550,000
The Excise, at
25,625,000
The Stamps, at
6,800,000
The Taxes, including the Land and Assessed Taxes, at
5,100,000
The Post Office, at
1,460,000
The Miscellaneous, comprehending many minute sources of income with which it is unnecessary at present to trouble the Committee, at
730,000
The remaining payments of the Austrian Loan, at
1,500,000
The payments on account of the Half-pay and Pensions' annuity, at
4,620,000
Making a total of
£.57,385,000
First, there is the charge on the Consolidated Fund for those permanent expenses which do not depend on the annual votes of the House of Commons; namely, the interest and management of the Public debt, amounting to
£.27,973,196
306
The interest upon that class of Exchequer Bills which are commonly called Deficiency Bills, amounting to
100,000
The annual and permanent charges on the Consolidated Fund for the Civil List, Parliamentary Pensions, &c. amounting to
2,050,000
The Half-pay Annuities, amounting to
2,800,000
And the Sinking Fund, amounting
5,134,458
Making a total of permanent Expenditure of
£.38,057,654
If to that we add the Supplies of the year,
viz.
1,050,000
Army
7,440,945
Navy
5,762,893
Ordnance
1,410,044
And Miscellaneous
2,611,388
We shall find that the whole will amount to
£.56,332,924
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307
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308
309
310
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311
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312
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313
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314
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315
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316
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*
*
317
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318
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319
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320
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321
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323
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l.
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324
325
must
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327
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330
argumentum ad hominem
331
332
progenies vitiosor
Nemo repenté fuit turpissimus.
333
334
ad valorem.
ad valorem.
l
Rum
£.150,000
Coals
100,000
Wool
350,000
Silk
462,000
£.1,062,000
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l,
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335
336
337
Mr. Baring
, in rising to offer a few observations to the House, said, he could not but in the first place confess, that he had never heard, and he believed there never had been made of late years, so gratifying a statement as that which the House had just heard from the right hon. gentleman. The facts upon which that statement was founded had, no doubt, been most maturely considered, and without a sufficient opportunity for examining the several particulars of which it was composed, it would be very presumptuous in any man to give a hasty opinion upon a topic which was, in every point of view, so truly important. He must, however, at the same time that he cheerfully bore testimony to the satisfactory tenour of the right hon. gentleman's speech, and of the intentions of the government which it expressed, avail himself of this opportunity of stating, that several of the questions which the speech involved, and particularly that which had been last treated of, required the most earnest attention that could be bestowed upon it by parliament. There were one or two points, the prominent nature of which struck him very forcibly, and to which he should now proceed to call the attention of the committee. In the first place, the right hon. gentleman's plan of finance seemed to him to want that certainty in the results, which it was supposed would attend it, and without which no plan of finance could be relied upon, or ought to be entertained. He had no doubt that the intention of the plan was, to preserve the credit of the nation in the best possible manner. It might be, that the multiplicity of its details, rather than any want of clearness in them, had prevented him from accurately comprehending the whole of its bearing; but, as far as he had been able to understand it, it seemed that the supposed increase was hardly to be calculated upon, from the grounds proposed by the right
338
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339
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340
341
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he thought he had already explained fully the plan by which he meant to effect the reduction he had proposed; but as the hon. gentleman had not comprehended him entirely, he must have failed in that intention. It would be observed, that in the calculation he had made of the produce of the last year, although he had taken the surplus at its actual amount, he had not-estimated any increase of revenue on account of the reduction. In the Customs, also, he had assumed no addition on account of the progressive increase which might be reasonably expected. Nor had he, with respect to the assessed taxes, calculated upon any improvement in those which remained. He had made no such prospective calculation, nor had he, on the other hand, allowed for any increase of expenditure for the ensuing four years, trusting that the addition thereby to be incurred would be supplied by the natural decrement which might be expected to occur in that period. If by any accident not now to be foreseen, that event should happen which would necessarily overturn all calculations—he meant a war, the Government then must rely upon the public spirit of the country to enable them to meet the expenses which it would bring with it. If, however, the tranquillity which at present prevailed should continue, the calculations which he had made would be found, he trusted, quite correct; and, at the end of the time to which they reached, the parliament would be enabled to judge of the operation of this improved system. If any deficiency were then
342
Mr. Baring
said, he had not at all misunderstood the right hon. gentleman. He thought that the country would be placed in a very dangerous situation, if a war were to break out previous to October, and it were then called upon to pay twenty-five millions. Instead of keeping up a large floating debt as the right hon. gentleman proposed to do, it would be better to employ the money as a sinking fund to purchase the 3 per cents above 90
l
Mr. Ellice
rose to ask the right hon. gentleman a question referring to a particular subject, in which, from his situation as the representative of one of the greatest silk-manufacturing towns in the kingdom, he felt peculiarly interested. The right hon. gentleman had stated, that he intended to reduce the duty on silks immediately. Now, he was afraid, that if the right hon. gentleman carried his resolution into effect, it would occasion the greatest inconvenience and distress amongst the silk-manufacturing population. He perfectly agreed with the right hon. gentleman in the expediency of ultimately reducing the duty; but he protested against any great and sudden reduction which would materially affect the stock on hand. The right hon. gentleman must be fully aware, that the duty on silk amounted to a heavy percentage on the value of the article. There had been made very large sales of silk recently, and some even during the last week; the purchasers upon those occasions would experience a very great loss, if the proposed reduction were suddenly to take place. And, not only would the purchasers of the raw material suffer, but all those persons who had a large stock of manufactured goods on hand. It would be peculiarly unfortunate if the reduction should take place at the present season; because a large stock of goods had just been manufactured for the spring consumption. Under these circumstances, he hoped the right hon. gentleman would declare publicly, that he would consent to postpone the reduction of the duty to some period when it would less seriously affect the owners of the raw article, and the manufacturers who had a large stock on hand. He trusted, at least, that before the right hon. gentleman
343
Mr. Maberly
said, that, according to the computation of the right hon. gentleman, the surplus of the revenue in the year 1823, amounted to 1,710, 985
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In toto
344
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345
Sir John Wrottesley
said, he rose for the purpose of putting a question to the right hon. gentleman, which affected the interests of his constituents. He wished to know whether the right hon. gentleman intended to allow coals to be brought up by the Grand Junction canal to London, and what was the exact amount of duty they were to be subjected to? He would also put another question to the right hon. gentleman with respect to the four per cents. He understood the right hon. gentleman to say, that an instalment of one-third of the amount of the four per cents was to be paid in October, and the other two-thirds at a fit time. There were, therefore, 25 millions to be paid in October. Now, he wished the right hon. gentleman to explain, in what manner the persons who would be entitled to the first instalment were to be selected from the other holders.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he would answer the different questions put to him by hon. members as distinctly as he could, and in the order in which they had been proposed. In answer to what had fallen from the hon. member for Coventry respecting the time when the reduction of the duty on silk was to take effect, his idea was, that the reduction should commence on the 5th of July next. He conceived that the interval between the present time and that period, would be sufficiently long to enable those who had large stocks on hand to dispose of them. At the same time, he felt it necessary to state, that he should not consider himself bound to commence the reduction at that particular time, if, from the representations of the parties interested, it should appear to him to be desirable to postpone the reduction to a later period. His chief de-
346
l
Sir J. Coffin
expressed his pleasure at finding that the country would soon be relieved altogether from the burthen of the salt-tax; for it was, with respect to the poor, a most oppressive duty.
Mr. Ellice
said, he was happy to find that the right hon. gentleman was willing to grant the persons interested in the silk-manufacture, time to make those arrangements which the proposed reduction of the duty rendered necessary. An hon. member had asked, how the chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to pay off a third of the 4 per cents in October? Now, he (Mr. E.) thought that the right hon. gentleman had very clearly stated how that operation would be performed. There was to be no selection, but each person was to be paid off
pro rata
347
Mr. John Smith
said, he gave the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer full credit for having given this great and important subject his most serious and attentive consideration, but there was still one weighty and oppressive tax which seemed to have escaped his attention; and upon that ground it was, that he felt it necessary to obtrude himself upon the attention of the committee. The tax to which he alluded was the tax upon law proceedings; or, as it might be fairly called, the tax upon justice. Recent circumstances had induced him to inquire more minutely into the law taxes, which were to be met with at every step, in our different courts of justice, and he felt convinced, that many gentlemen around him were not at all aware of the exorbitant amount to which they extended; or of the injurious effects which they produced upon the peace, the morals and the happiness of a great proportion of the people. For instance, in order to recover a debt of from 3
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348
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349
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350
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Mr. Calcraft
felt, as no doubt the country at large would feel, much obliged to his hon. friend for having called the attention of parliament to the oppressions caused by the law taxes, to which suitors at law or in equity were subject. They were of a character the most odious and oppressive, and were among the very first evils, of taxation, which the people of this country had a right to expect would be now done away with. But he particularly wished to ask the right hon. gentleman what was meant to be done about the repeal of the present duty on salt? The right hon. gentleman had said nothing upon this point that was direct; but had merely thrown out an observation or two upon the increasing amount of the duty. At the same time, the pledge, the solemn engagement that parliament was under to the people was not to be for a moment for-
351
352
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353
l
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that no person was more convinced of the truth of the last assertion made by the hon. gentleman, or had more frequently urged the same consideration on the House. As to the different items which
354
Mr. Brougham
said, he fully agreed with his hon. friend near him, in thinking that the House and the country had a right to feel disappointment at the financial project just proposed by the right hon. gentleman opposite. But, before he went any further he was most anxious to guard himself against being misunderstood. He begged to assure the right hon. gentleman, that in using the word "project," he meant not to treat with the slightest disrespect the very sound and enlightened statement which he had made to the committee. He gave the right hon. gentleman every credit for his sound and enlightened views upon the different topics alluded to in his speech; but, as many of them had been heard by
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358
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360
Mr. Hume
said, he was glad of an opportunity of expressing his satisfaction at a great portion of the statement of the chancellor of the Exchequer. The right
361
s
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362
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363
364
Mr. Robertson
expressed his satisfaction at the course pursued by the chancellor of the Exchequer, which was calculated to give employment to the people of the country, to increase the general consumption, and to improve the commerce, so essentially interwoven with our prosperity as a nation. The taxes selected for reduction had this obvious tendency; and yet the hon. gentlemen on the other side talked as if they had never looked beyond the present hour, notwithstanding the lessons of experience so often placed before them. It was impossible to conceive that circumstances might not arise which would make it the interest of America to oppose this country. Suppose us to be plunged into a war with that or with any other state, the Sinking Fund was not at present in the condition in which it ought to be on the breaking out of a war. It was by protecting that sinking fund, and not by speculating on it, that we should be prepared for any emergency, and give the best excitement to the commercial interest of the country. It was to that fund we owed the keeping down of the rate of interest. And, not only was it calculated, in the various modes of its operation, to excite the commerce and industry of Great Britain, but it had a greater tendency to force capital into Ireland, than all the plans that had been devised on the subject. He therefore concurred in the view which the chancellor of the Exchequer had taken of the subject.
Mr. Grey Bennet
declared himself ready to avow at present, as he had often before done, that the persons who had changed the currency were those who had committed the robbery. Never was there a measure fraught with so much mischief and fraud as that to which he had just alluded; nor would it be a justification of the conduct of parliament, that because at one period they had robbed the creditor, at another they should rob the debtor. Under this system many persons had been reduced to beggary, not by any fault of their own—not by any of the accidents or misfortunes of life—but by an act of the government itself. It was true, that in many respects, the situation of the country appeared to have improved since the years 1817 and 1818; but it was not to be inferred from thence that we were in a prosperous condition. If the poor-rates had decreased in many parishes, there were few
365
l
Mr. D. Gilbert
said, he rose merely to express his opinion on the expediency of suffering the salt-duty to expire. If the duty were intirely off, afar greater quantity would be used for the purposes of
366
Mr. Baring
wished to know from the chancellor of the Exchequer what arrangements he had made for paying off the twenty-five million which the government was bound to pay in October? It was to be presumed, that he had his machinery prepared for raising the loan that would be required.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the sum would be raised by loan or Exchequer bills; but the mode would depend, in a great measure, on the amount which would be necessary to pay off the dissentients.
ARMY ESTIMATES.]
The report of the committee of Supply was brought up. On the first resolution being read,
Mr. Hume
said, that the chancellor of the Exchequer had calculated the average expenditure for the next four years, on the present scale of 73,041 regulars, and if the present report were agreed to, there would be no reduction for four years to come. At any rate, there were no circumstances to authorize the continuance of so large a force. The same reasons which were urged by the chancellor of the Exchequer, for a small reduction of taxation would justify a much larger reduction. There was no other means than this of giving relief to the country; and if the expenditure were not much more diminished, there would be little or no good done. The House were now to be called on to vote 73,000 regulars with 19,000 veterans, artillery and marines, making a total of 92,000 men, not 3,000 of which were at any time out of the country. Thus there were 92,000 men embodied at an expense of more than six millions a year. He remembered that in 1817, lord Castlereagh had admitted that seven millions was an extravagant vote; and he only asked it for that year on account of the disturbed state of the country. But the noble lord had then stated, that no less a sum than four
367
368
Lord Palmerston
said, that this question had been so fully discussed on a former night, that he should not trouble the House with re-arguing it. He rose for the purpose of setting right an error in the hon. member's comparative estimate of the year 1817 and the present year. He seemed to think, that the estimate of the former year was less than the present, when in fact we had, in 1817, 107,000 men, at an expense of 6,664,000
l
The House divided: For the resolution 52; For the amendment 8.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, February 24, 1824
BEAR-BAITING.]
Mr. R. Martin
presented a petition from the inhabitants of Manchester, praying for the abolition of bear-baiting, badger-baiting, dog-fighting and monkey-fighting. The petition, he observed, was most numerously and respectably signed, and he felt proud of the honour of having been selected as the individual to present it to the House. He had observed, on a former night, that bull-baiting was already abolished; happily, no man could now bait a bull without exposing himself to the penalties of a misdemeanour. The petition was signed by upwards of 700 most respectable individuals, and particularly by the class of persons belonging to the Society of Friends. It set forth, "That the petitioners, strongly impressed with a sense, not only of the cruelty which is inflicted on the unfortunate animals who are made
369
Ordered to lie on the table.
TOBACCO DUTIES.]
Mr. H. Davis
presented a petition from the manufacturers of Tobacco and Snuff in the city of Bristol, praying for a repeal of the duties on those articles. The petitioners, many of whom were large capitalists, complained that the encouragement given to smuggling, by the high duties, rendered it impossible for the fair dealer to compete with the illicit trader. He could not state a stronger instance of the impolicy of high duties, than that, when the duties amounted to 1
s
d
lbs
s
lbs
Mr. Bright
expressed his regret, that the chancellor of the Exchequer had not afforded more effectual relief to the public, by the repeal of taxes which were not only oppressive and impolitic in a financial point of view, but most injurious to the morals of the people. The right hon. gentleman had described most eloquently last night the progress of immorality, commencing in an invasion of the revenue Jaws, and ending in the commission of the most atrocious crimes. His description was most eloquent and ingenious; but why had not the right hon. gentleman applied his own principle to the repeal of a tax, which was perhaps a more fertile source of crime than any other branch of, the revenue? The, duties on tobacco amounted to 1,000
l
370
Ordered to lie on the table.
WOOL TAX.]
Lord Milton
said, he had a petition to present from a numerous body of his constituents, from the woollen manufacturers of Saddleworth, praying for some modification of the duties upon Foreign Wool. He was sure it would be satisfactory to the House, at least to that part of it who took liberal views of commercial subjects, to hear the opinions which the petitioners expressed. They expressed their hopes that now, when his. majesty's government were taking sound and enlightened views of the commercial interests of the country, the woollen manufactures would not be neglected. He read this passage, with a view to show the House of Commons and the government, that when they took sound views of the interests of the country, their conduct was not misunderstood, nor their endeavours misinterpreted. He had felt great gratis fication, last evening, at that part of the chancellor of the Exchequer's statement, which related to the commercial regulations of the country; but he bad felt much disappointed, and he was sure the country would by no means be satisfied, at the amount of taxation that had been reduced, or the articles that had been selected. He thought, that by the reduction of the duty on coals, a most undue preference had been given to the city of London—that portion of the community who stood least in need of it, because they possessed the concentrated wealth of the country. He knew the argument upon which the reduction rested; but, with all due respect to those who supported that proposition, he must take leave to say, that it would have been much wiser to have selected a tax of more general pressure, and more open to objection £hear!].
Mr. Stuart Wortley
said, he wished to
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SILK TRADE—DUTIES ON FOREIGN
Mr. Ellice
said, he had a petition to present, which was the natural consequence of some of the statements of the chancellor of the Exchequer last night. It was signed by all, or at least nearly all, the considerable silk manufacturers of the City of London, imploring the House to consider their situation before they carried into effect the plan of the right hon. gentleman. The petitioners stated, "that they have learnt with the utmost surprise, by the reports of the proceedings of the House, that it has been proposed to adopt so important a measure as that of a reduction of from 5
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DELAYS AND EXPENSES IN THE COURT
Mr. J. Williams
said, that in rising to bring forward the motion to which he was about, on this second occasion, to call the attention of parliament, he must observe, that if he thought it could be expected of him that he should produce some plan, on the successful operation of which it became him to pronounce a confident opinion, he could assure the House, with great sincerity, that he would have withdrawn from the undertaking; because, when the extent of the subject was considered, and the period of time during which the evils of the system had been suffered to accumulate, he should look upon that man as rather bold than wise who would attempt to produce a specific remedy applicable to so complex a case. Indeed, the motion which he was about to lay before the House, and the observations he should feel it his duty to submit in support of that motion, rested on a principle directly the reverse. His complaint was, that too much had already been done on the subject of the court of chancery, with too little investigation and inquiry to warrant it. It had been a matter of surprise to him, and a cause of regret to the country, that so far back as eleven years ago, a measure of legislation had passed that House on the subject which he was about to introduce, without any distinct inquiry having been instituted; and he need not remind gentlemen, that now, in another House, a measure was to be found, not in contemplation, but in the actual course of adoption—which measure exposed to the people, in all its nakedness, the harsh and presumptuous proposition, that members of one House, because they were such, were competent to judge of abstract points of law. And it was a question, whether that measure did not nearly affect the constitution of the highest court of this country. If it did, then he said, that the House of Commons ought to exercise a most vigilant superintendance over that measure, instead of remaining tranquil and idle spectators of its effects. Such was not
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Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that in rising to offer a few observations upon the hon. and learned gentleman's motion, he was fully aware of his total inability to follow him through the various details into which he had gone. He should therefore leave it to his hon. and learned friends near him, if they so thought fit, to enter into the legal points upon which the hon. and learned gentleman had touched; and to account, if they could account, for the delays which had taken place in cases with which they were not acquainted. But, in his view of the case, it was not necessary to enter into all those details in order to form a competent judgment upon the question [hear, hear! from the Opposition]; or if it was necessary to enter into such details, then a due notice ought to have been given, in order that gentlemen might have come prepared to enter fully into an inquiry of the cases quoted. But, as this was a subject which had for some time occupied the attention of the king's government, he thought it right to put the House in possession of the views which his majesty's ministers entertained upon it. And, in doing this, he begged to assure the noble lord, by whom he had been already irregularly interrupted [hear, hear! from the Opposition benches; but we know not to what noble lord the right hon. Secretary alluded], he assured that noble lord, that
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Mr. Abercromby
said, that he would not have presented himself to the notice of the House, but for some observations which had fallen from the right hon. gentleman who had just sat down. He begged to offer his sincere congratulations to his hon. and learned friend upon the success I which had attended his efforts; but the congratulations which he wished to offer to the public must, in consequence of what had fallen from the right hon. secretary, be subject to some qualifications. The right hon. gentleman had said, that it was the intention of his majesty's ministers to have proposed the appointment of a commission, whether the present motion had been brought forward or not. That declaration having been made, he was bound to give credit to it; but he was sure that the public would attribute the institution of any inquiry into the proceedings, of the court of chancery, with a view to their amelioration, to the un-
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Mr. Lockhart
suggested to the hon. and learned member for Lincoln, that it would be advisable to withdraw the motion for the appointment of a committee, as such a proceeding would not preclude the House from again considering the question at a future period, if it should be thought proper so to do. He however, thought it would be improper to let the lord chancellor have the nomination of the commission.
Mr. Brougham
said, he wished to state the reasons why he was disposed to approve of the withdrawing of the motion. If he thought by that step the House would part, with that most constitutional mode of inquiry into abuses of the description of those which had been brought under its notice—he meant the exercise of the inquisitorial functions of that House—he would not only express his disapprobation of the
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Mr. Secretary Canning
observed, that after the recommendation with which the hon. and learned gentleman who had just sat down, had concluded his speech, it was not his intention to trespass long upon the time and patience of the House. But, as the speeches of two of the hon. and learned members who had followed his right hon. colleague, the secretary for the home department, appeared to turn almost entirely upon the effectiveness and sincerity of the proposed commission, he thought that it would be satisfactory not only to the House, but also to the country at large, to have an assurance, not only on the part of the noble lord who was thought to be most interested in this question, but also on the part of others of his majesty's ministers,—an assurance which, for his own part, he most willingly gave,—that the inquiry into which that commission was to enter should be as sincere, as impartial, and as effectual as it was possible for man to make it. Even if any disposition existed to trifle with so important a subject, hon. gentlemen must be aware, that no government, in the present enlightened state of the age, could, after consenting to institute an inquiry conduct it in such a manner as to prevent it from arriving at a salutary and beneficial result. He, therefore, was of opinion, that to anticipate a satisfactory and auspicious conclusion to the labours of the commission, would be more consistent with candour and good feeling, than to augur nothing but disappointment, mockery, and deception. The points into which the commission would be more particularly instructed to inquire would be; first, whether it was possible to lessen the time consumed; and secondly, whether it would be possible to lessen the expense incurred, by suits in equity. The third point, which was, perhaps, the most important of all, would be, whether any portion of the business now discharged by the lord chancellor of England, could, without detriment to the public, be turned over to any other; and if to any other, to what public officer? These points would form the principal subjects into which the commission would have to examine; and he now stated them, not with any view of giving an opinion as to the results at which it was probable that the commission might arrive, but with a view of assuring the House, that into each and all of them, examination would be instituted in a spirit of most perfect sincerity, and with the
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Mr. Brougham
explained, that the right honourable gentleman had misunderstood him, in supposing that he had suggested that the courts of common law should be included in the investigation of the commission about to be appointed. On the contrary, he had suggested, that a simultaneous inquiry, by another commission, should take place into the state of those courts.
Mr. Williams
rose to reply. He observed, that he should have executed his duty in a very improper manner, if he had attributed pre-eminence to any plan of his own for improving the condition of the suitors in chancery. What he had wished to impress upon the House, and still more, upon the country was, that the state of the court of chancery, from whatever cause it had arisen, was such as to call for the most serious attention and considera-
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The motion was then withdrawn.
AUSTRIAN LOAN CONVENTION.]
On the motion for going into a committee on the Austrian Loan Convention,
Mr. Hume
begged to ask a question respecting the state of the Russian loan, as we were now to accept of a composition
438
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he would readily answer the hon. member if it were possible. Only a short time ago this subject had attracted his attention, and he had looked into the acts and treaties relative to it. But, after doing so, he was not prepared to say how far there was a possibility of executing the purpose to which the hon. member had alluded.
Mr. Baring
said, that the engagement, relative to this loan, was a contingent engagement. The debt had not been contracted, as was stated by his hon. friend to make war on this country; but for a purpose which he probably would approve of as little. It was money, borrowed by the empress Catherine, for the subjugation of Poland. Russia had a number of old out-standing debts in Holland, and we had undertaken to pay one quarter, and the Government of Holland had undertaken to pay another, on the contingency of Belgium remaining attached to the Netherlands.
The House having resolved itself into a committee,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that hitherto the loan to the emperor of Austria had been kept separately from the other 3 per cent consolidated annuities. As, however, a treaty had been entered into to annul the liability of Austria for this debt, in consideration of an advance of 2½ millions, it would not be necessary to continue this arrangement any longer. If the committee, therefore, sanctioned the terms of this convention, the distinction between this and the other parts of the public debt would cease, and the Imperial annuities would be consolidated with the other 3 per cents. He would now move, 1. "That the sum of £.2,500,000 having been agreed to be paid by the emperor of Austria in full discharge of
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Mr. Hume
said, he was not prepared to support a resolution for sanctioning the terms agreed to by government. The committee was told, that Austria had consented to advance 2½ millions to this country; but, by the mode in which the payments were made into the Exchequer, the receipts would fall considerably short of that amount. Hence there was not only an unfair diminution of our just claim, but even an unfair reduction below the amount actually stipulated for. Why, he would ask, were the contractors, Messrs. Reid, Rothschild, Baring, and Co. to receive 5 per cent for their discounts, when other persons were only receiving 3½? Why had such a preference been given to them over others—a preference which would cost the country upwards of 50,000
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Mr. Herries
replied, that by the papers on the table, the character in which the contractors stood towards the Government would be seen, and it would be made manifest, that government did not negociate with them as parties proposing to advance a loan to this country. In offering the terms agreed to, they had acted as the representatives of the emperor of Austria, for the payment of such a sum as he was disposed to grant. The rate of discount, in case of the immediate advance of the whole sum, was as much a part of the original contract as the amount of the contribution itself. They submitted certain conditions to the Treasury, of which this rate of discount was one, and Government had no option, but to accept or reject the whole. It was not in the power of the Treasury to give less than 5 per cent, as the contractors would not receive
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Mr. Hume
expressed himself not satisfied with this explanation. It was not stated in the paper laid before the House, that a bargain had been made with certain contractors, but that a treaty had been concluded with the emperor of Austria. No doubt could remain on this point; for the chancellor of the Exchequer had repeated it last night, and made it the foundation for uttering a very handsome eulogium on the generosity and honesty of the emperor of Austria. It was not stated that a bargain had been made in London with certain contractors, but that our Ambassador at Vienna had concluded a certain treaty with the minister of the emperor. But, the right hon. gentleman now said, that we had made only a bargain with certain contractors, whose offers we were obliged to accept. In the correspondence which he held in his hand, he saw a certain letter from the right hon. gentleman, accepting the offer of the contractors; but he did not see in it when that offer was made, nor what the terms were [Mr. Herries observed across the table, they were contained in a Treasury minute]. Then he (Mr. H.) would say, that one or other of the official papers was not correct. We either contracted to accept 2,500,000
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Mr. Baring
said, that as he was one of the parties interested in the loan, he might venture on an explanation without taking any part in the decision which the House might come to with regard to it. He was independent of any opinion which the House might form as to a bargain made with the emperor of Austria. It was their, the contractors, business to attend to the price of the Austrian funds when the bargain was made. The question had two
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Mr. Secretary Canning
bought the hon. gentleman opposite had put a wrong construction on this transaction. Before the treaty was finally concluded, it was necessary to look to the means of payment, and this depended on the facility Austria had of borrowing, which again depended on her credit, the same as it did with all other powers, in the English market. It became the government, therefore, to consider on what terms the sum could be procured in our market. The gentlemen who had contracted to pay it, stood between Austria and England; and it was for this government to consider if the terms they offered were equivalent to the Austrian stock to be given. They had refused to give any larger sum. In agreeing to pay this sum they had made certain conditions; and it was only for the Treasury to accept those conditions, or altogether reject the payment. It was part of the original agreement, in which these gentlemen undertook to pay us so much money, on receiving a certain quantity of Austrian stock, that they should receive discount.
Mr. Hume
said, that the explanations given were not satisfactory. It would have been easy enough for the Austrian government to have given 100,000
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied,
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Mr. Warre
said, he should like to see the Austrian state paper, in which the emperor acknowledging a debt of twenty millions, had the assurance to propose a composition of two and a half millions. He recollected that when the hon. member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Smith) brought forward a motion on the subject, the late lord Londonderry, in his peculiar manner, had treated the matter with great indifference, and said that "if we were to turn the whole country inside out, we could get nothing." The right hon. gentleman had been more successful; but what was two and a half millions for art original principal sum of six millions, and its accumulations, for which Mr. Pitt had said we could sue the emperor in his own court? The Austrian finances were said to have acquired such a degree of elasticity from his payment, that there was no knowing to what beneficial results their integrity might lead. He wished to see the state paper in which the emperor of Austria, who had been described as a man of such strict honour and fine feeling, was good enough to offer the payment of half-a-crown in the pound, as a fair liquidation of his debt to this country.
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that the information which the hon. gentleman wished to obtain was to be found in a long course of correspondence contained in the archives of the foreign office. He did not wish to take credit to himself for what was almost concluded before he came into office; nor was he willing to incur responsibility for a measure which whatever its merits or defects might be, was chief-
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Mr. Hume
was of opinion, that the right hon. gentleman had confounded a loan with a subsidy, in his mode of reasoning, for he (Mr. H.) could see no inconsistency in the payment of a debt which became due to the emperor of Austria by a subsequent arrangement, though his loan was not paid up, any more than he should in the case of an individual who had paid his bill, before he had settled with the other party for his mortgage. He should like to see the account current of this balance struck, and, as far as he was capable of judging, there could be no objection to the production of such an account. Af-
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The resolutions were agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, February 25, 1824
GAME LAWS.
Earl Grosvenor
wished to say a few words on the subject of the Game Laws, to which their lordship's attention had already been called. Some noble lords might perhaps be desirous of hearing evidence to form a ground for any bill Which might come before them, and for that purpose propose the appointment of a committee to examine witnesses. Their lordships must, however, be aware, that they had before them a report of the committee of the House of Commons, which was printed, and might be consulted at their pleasure. He undoubtedly thought that report quite sufficient to justify their lordships in coming to a determination on the measure. The evidence taken before the House of Commons was extremely full and satisfactory. If their lordships were to travel from one end of the country to the other, they would find in every market-town proof of the truth of the allegation in that report, that game was every where to be purchased. The sale, in fact, could not be prevented: and it appeared to him, that if the bill for legalising it should pass into a law, it would not have the effect of lessening the quantity of game, as some supposed, but the contrary; for, if the game were permitted to be brought openly into the public markets, the reduction which would take place in the price would diminish the temptation to any illegal mode of procuring it. For the reasons he had stated, he should not move for the appointment of a committee. Indeed, he thought all further evidence unnecessary.
The Earl of Darnley
concurred in the propriety of making game property, and
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HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, February 25, 1824
SPIRITS INTERCOURSE—PETITION OF SCOTCH DISTILLERS.]
Lord Binning
said, he held in his hand a petition from the Distillers of Scotland, who prayed for an equalization of the duties of Irish and Scotch Spirits. Irish and Scotch distillation was now the same, but Irish spirits were allowed by a liberal intercourse to come into this country, whereas Scotch spirits were excluded. From something which had fallen from the chancellor of the Exchequer in the course of last session, the Scotch distillers were led to believe, that they should be allowed the same advantages; and he was therefore anxious to call the attention of the chancellor of the Exchequer to the subject, and he hoped the prayer of the petition would be acceded to.
Mr. Kennedy
said, he could not omit the opportunity of bearing his testimony, to the advantages resulting from the enlightened measure of last year; but he greatly feared, that, unless the remaining part of it were carried into execution, namely, the equalization of the duties, a system of smuggling would spring up between England and Scotland, which it would be difficult to put down. He, therefore, trusted that the same spirit which influenced the chancellor of the Exchequer, in the course of the last session, would induce him to place the distillation of both countries on the same footing.
COINAGE—DECIMAL SCALE.]
Sir John
446
rose to submit to the House the motion of which he had given notice, namely, to inquire how far the coin of the realm could be adapted to a decimal scale. His apology for trespassing upon the attention of the House must be the strong conviction which he felt of the necessity of the measure. The House must be aware, that the interference of the legislature was necessary to address the Crown upon a question of this kind, for the control of the currency was the prerogative of the crown. It had been said by the great commentator on the laws of England, Mr. Justice Blacks tone, that "as money is the medium of commerce, it is the king's prerogative, as the arbiter of domestic commerce, to give it authority or make it current. The denomination, or the value for which the coin is to pass current, is likewise in the breast of the king, and if any unusual pieces are coined, that value must be ascertained by proclamation. The measure, then, which he was about to propose could not be carried into execution without an address to the Throne, if after mature deliberation, the House should consent to his proposition; without which deliberation he should not presume to ask their assent. It must be manifest to the House, that this measure, if adopted, must be carried into execution at the same hour and moment, or a great degree of confusion must ensue throughout the country. A measure of this nature had been proposed some time back: he had not then the honour of being a member of the House; but, from the best information he could procure, he understood that an ounce of gold being then worth 99
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Mr. Wallace
did not deny that there were advantages attending the system proposed by the hon. baronet, but whilst he made that admission, he was not pie-pared to assent to his proposition, believing that the inconveniences that would inevitably follow the change, would be very great, and of a character that the expected benefits would not compensate. Besides, it was plain, that whatever were the defects in theory of our present system, it had been so long in practice, and the people were so habituated to it, that very little inconvenience was actually experienced. Nothing could be more correct than the course which the hon. baronet had pursued. It was, undoubtedly, the prerogative of the king to take charge of the coinage; but the very motion of the hon. baronet, tending as it did to create doubts, and to leave the public mind in a state of uncertainty, constituted its objection. The subject of decimal calculation. had been frequently before the House. It had been introduced at the time of the new coinage. It had its advocates, but he must also say, that there were opposed to the system some whose authority on questions of this nature stood very high in that House. It was most true that the system had been adopted after the revolution in France; but the hon. baronet would recollect, that it was adopted when there was an overthrow of every previous system, and when no existing interests or prepossessions were to be contended with. It had doubtless the merits of uniformity and facility, but habit and usage had given an equal facility in this country to the system that prevailed. Besides, there was a great objection to the proposition, when it was recollected, that such an alteration must principally affect the very description of persons, who, from their situations in life, carrying on their dealings in copper money, would feel the alteration, and could not be made sensible of the benefit. Adverting to the difference in the currency of England and of Ireland, he acknowledged that, it; was a very serious inconvenience, intimated that it was his intention to propose some measure on the subject, and expressed
449
Mr. Hume,
adverting to the committee which sat in former years, of which the hon. member for Bodmyn was the chairman, wished to know if their labours had terminated in any practical result?
Mr. D. Gilbert
replied, that the question of weights and measures alone had been considered by the committee, but that of money had never been before them.
Sir H. Parnell
expressed his satisfaction at what had fallen from the right hon. master of the Mint, with reference to the coin of Ireland. He had himself given notice in the last session, that he meant to move for leave to bring in a bill on the subject, but he most cheerfully resigned the undertaking into the hands of one so much more competent to do it justice. Unquestionably, nothing could be more pregnant with inconvenience and injury than the present inequality in the coin of the two countries.
Sir J. Wrottesley
consented not to press his motion to a division, though he trusted that the young members of the House would live to see the principle of his measure carried into effect.
The motion was negatived.
REVENUE INQUIRY.]
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to continue the commission of Inquiry into the Public Revenue; that commission, which had been productive of so much advantage in Ireland, and was now so beneficially employed in England, in investigating all affairs of revenue between the two countries. In the course of his observations, he said he should be guilty of great injustice to a former commission appointed by the Treasury, at the head of which commission was his right hon. friend the paymaster of the Forces, if he did not mention with the encomium it deserved, their report, especially that part of it which related to the Customs. It was a tribute due to that commission to notice the activity and knowledge which they displayed in the report in question. The right hon. gentleman then moved for leave to bring in the bill.
Mr. Hume
asked, if it was the intention of those commissioners to direct their exertions to the same subject which had occupied them last year. There were many things in the Customs on this side of the
450
Sir C. Long
acknowledged the gratification which must be felt by himself and the other commissioners in receiving the tribute of praise which his right hon. friend had been pleased to pay to their labours. He was happy to say, that their exertions had been deemed most useful; every suggestion which they had made had been adopted with entire success. It was not for him to say whether their labours should be directed to the same subject again; but he was confident they would proceed with as much activity and perseverance as before wherever their exertions might be wanted.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
DELAYS IN CHANCERY.]
Mr. Leake
stated, that in consequence of what had passed last night respecting delays in the court of chancery, he considered it his duty, out of respect to the House, although he believed it was not absolutely necessary, in point of form, that he should do so, to acquaint them, that it was not his intention to bring forward the measures upon that subject of which he had given notice at the end of the last session.
POOR-LAWS.]
Mr. Nolan
in moving for leave to bring in a bill to amend the Poor-Laws, said, that it was not his intention to enter into any explanation on the subject at present. If the House would allow him to bring in the bill, and to have it read a first time, he would then move, that it be printed and read a second time at some period that would admit of a sufficient opportunity for considering the merits of the measure.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
WEIGHTS AND MEASURES.]
Sir G. Clerk
Mr. D. Gilbert
seconded the motion. He said, that the bill of last session had been founded on the report of the commission appointed by the Crown, the recommendation of which was, to take some natural measure as the guide, with
451
Leave was given, and the bill was brought in and read a first time.
COMMERCIAL INTERCOURSE BETWEEN
Sir H. Parnell,
in moving for papers to elucidate the act of last session respecting the Commercial Intercourse between this country and Ireland, paid a high Compliment to the commission of Inquiry which had been employed so advantageously for the public in the latter country. Nothing could be more gratifying than to observe the success of their well-directed labours. They had done all they could to make Ireland an industrious, and a happy people. He moved that there be laid before the House a copy of all orders that had been issued by the commission appointed by the Treasury, in pursuance of the Act of 4th of George the fourth, for consolidating the several Boards of Customs and Excise in Ireland.
The motion was then agreed to.
EXCISE.]
Mr. Hume,
adverting to the statement made by the chancellor of the Exchequer respecting the duties on exciseable articles in the course of the last year, observed, that a noble lord, in another place, had been in the habit, for some years, of introducing a statement of the duties on those articles, whenever they were on the increase. But, whenever they were diminished, no statement appeared. Now, what he wished to have was, a clear account of the produce of the duties on all exciseable articles, for a series of years—say ten, in order that the effect of certain legislative measures, in increasing or in diminishing their amount, might be distinctly ascertained. He was also desirous of having a similar return respecting the Custom duties, under a certain limitation. The hon. gentleman then moved, that there be laid before the House an account of the several articles, charged with the duties of Excise for the last ten years; distinguishing the British and West-India from the East-India sugar; stating the amount of duty levied on each article, and the quantity of articles each year; and, also, distinguishing Great Britain from Ireland.
452
l.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, February 26, 1824
OLIVE GUELPH (STYLING HERSELF PRINCESS OF CUMBERLAND.]
Mr. Scarlett,
in presenting a petition from a lady, who claimed descent from the royal family, and styled herself Princess of Cumberland, expressed his regret at not seeing the right hon. Secretary of State for the Home Department in his place. The petitioner declared, that she was lineally descended from George the Second; that she was now a prisoner, residing within the Rules of the King's Bench Prison, and she prayed protection and redress, and likewise that she might be heard at the Bar of that House.—Ordered to lie on the table.
LINEN TRADE—BOUNTY.]
Mr. Hume
Mr. Bernal
said, that the effect of the repeal of the bounty would not be felt by Scotland alone. The greater part of the coarse linens which were sent to the West Indies, under the denomination of Osna-burghs, and which were under seven pence a yard, were manufactured in the north of this country. The removal of this bounty; therefore, would have an injurious operation upon an interest which was already very much depressed.
453
Mr. Bright
concurred in the propriety of bringing this subject under the consideration of the House.
Colonel Trench
regretted that the chancellor of the Exchequer, for the sake of saving a paltry sum of 100,000
l.,
l
454
Mr. Maberly
said, he did not rise to prolong the discussion, but he could not omit the present opportunity of making a few remarks upon this subject. He was happy to state, that he was confident Ireland would derive a very great advantage from the improved growth of flax in the present year. They had, as he was informed, been able to save their entire seed, which might be valued at ten pounds per acre; and, how different such a condition must be from that in which they lost their seed, he need not state, because it was manifest, that whilst that was the case, it was impossible for them to compete with France or Holland, or those countries where the seed was grown. It was to him a great source of satisfaction to have been, in some degree, instrumental in sending that information to Ireland. The following up of that course would be of the greatest advantage to that country; and he hoped soon to see Ireland a raw producing country, which, he was quite sure, she was capable of becoming; and if that should be the case, it would be most profitable to the poor famishing people of the south of Ireland, whose condition was enough to make one shudder; so that he thought the hon. gentleman opposite need not be alarmed at the removal of a bounty of 10 per cent in ten years. One word now with respect to the classification of bounties. The great production of low-price bounties arose in Scotland, and if they were taken off, it would manifestly do an injury to that country. He thought they should deal out even-handed justice to Scotland as well as to Ireland, and to England too; and that was a consideration which should not be lost sight of by the chancellor of the Exchequer. Another point which he wished to be considered was, the propriety of taking off the duties upon hemp. This, he thought, would be a considerable advantage; and, indeed, a pledge had been given to that effect by the government, as was very well known by the right hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Wallace). There was no less a duty than 25 per cent on hemp, which was an enormous tax on the raw material, and he was astonished how people who talked of liberal principles could maintain so enormous a duty as 25 or 30 per cent on the raw material. Really, it was holding
455
Mr. Wallace
said, he merely rose to remove the impression that he had given any pledge as to the repeal of the duties on hemp.
Mr. Maberly
said, he did not mean to state that the right hon. gentleman personally had done so, but most certainly a pledge to that effect had been given by the government most distinctly.
The motion was agreed to.
STATE OF THE REPRESENTATION OF EDINBURGH.]
On the Motion of Mr.
Abercromby,
Mr. Abercromby
then rose, to submit to the House his promised motion, and addressed the House to the following effect:—Mr. Speaker; in obedience to the wishes of a very numerous, intelligent, and respectable body of my fellow-countrymen, I presented to the House in the course of the last session, that petition which has just been read. At the time I received it, I found the House occupied with various and urgent questions, and in the exercise of that discretion which was vested in me, I felt that I should best consult the interest of the petitioners by postponing their case to a season when I might obtain the patient and undivided attention of the House. I was desirous that that petition should be again read, as it contains a clear and distinct detail of the present state of the representation of Edinburgh, setting forth, in a striking manner, the grievances of which they complain. It has seldom happened, that a petition has been presented to the House containing more respectful, and, at the same time, confiding language; and, if the result of this night should prove that that confidence has been misplaced, I shall have the bitter mortification to feel, that the failure
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457
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458
459
460
461
462
463
464
Mr. Stuart Wortley
observed, that he had listened with considerable attention to the speech of the hon. and learned gentleman, but had not been
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467
*
*
468
469
Lord John Russell
expressed his utter astonishment to hear any honourable member contend, that the object of the motion was not desired by the people of Edinburgh, in the face of the petition of those very people themselves. That Scotland could be supposed solemnly to have stipulated at the Union, that nineteen persons in the city of Edinburgh, should return a representative to the House of Commons, in spite of, and sometimes in contradiction to, the remaining 21,000 of the respectable inhabitants, was so complete an absurdity, that he could not believe it ever entered any heads but such as were sometimes to be found in that House. There were some things which appeared so extraordinary and absurd at first hearing, that even public meetings, at which frequently the most ignorant were present, rejected them; and they could be propounded only in the House of Commons. Of that description was the proposition of the hon. member for Yorkshire, with respect to the solemn stipulation to which he had adverted. The hon. member for Yorkshire had also discovered, that the constitution of the House of Commons was so admirable, that it had led the country through all its difficulties—through all the good and evil it had experienced. But, did the hon. gentleman mean to say, that the present state of the country—that its gradual recovery from the distress by which it had been nearly overwhelmed—was at all attributable to the wisdom of that House? Why, when the distress of the agricultural interest was at the highest, did ministers venture to say that they had any proposition to make to remove that distress? On the contrary, was it not said by gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House, and at last acceded to by the gentlemen on the other side, that there could he no relief given, except by relieving the country from taxation? Was not that proposition at first treated with scorn? And was it not said, that the natural course of events, seconded by the energy and industry of the people of England, would relieve us from any difficulties? And that, in fact, was the case. What man of common sense was there but must see that it was so? We had also the advantage of living under some good laws, and it was owing to the security derived from the knowledge that those laws could not be violated, that the country flourished, even in despite of the
470
Lord Binning
declared, that the prin-
471
472
473
474
475
aristocracie populaire,
476
popularis aura
477
478
Sir J. Newport,
reference to what had fallen from the hon. member for Yorkshire on the claims of parliament, as the authors of the present prosperous state of the country, said, that he had lived long-enough to remember the panegyrics rung out by its members upon the parliament of Ireland, previous to the union. It was said, that they were proceeding in the best of all possible ways to secure the happiness of the people of Ireland; in short, that nothing could be wiser or better than the measures they adopted. He would venture to say, that if the debates from the year 1790 to 1800 were gone through, it would be found that nine-tenths consisted of eulogiums pronounced by the parliament of Ireland upon itself. How well deserved those eulogiums had been, it was needless for him to point out; enough was known to make him and others very sceptical as to the justice of the praises which the hon. member for Yorkshire had so liberally lavished. The Irish parliament had accelerated its own downfall, by separating itself from the feelings and interests of the people they professed to represent; and it was not improbable that, in the case of England, the same cause would lead to the same effect. The noble lord who spoke last had maintained, that the petition so respectably and so numerously signed, did not speak the sentiments of the inhabitants of Edinburgh. But, if this were true, why had no counter petition been got up and laid upon the table? Sufficient time had been allowed; as the petition now before
479
Mr. Kennedy
expressed his surprise, that the right hon. gentleman, the member for Edinburgh (Mr. W. Dundas), had not thought it worth his while to deliver his opinion upon the present occasion. Under all the circumstances, his silence was remarkable; for the right hon. gentleman had stated at a former time, as would probably be remembered, that whenever this debate was brought on, he should not fail to be in his place to make the House acquainted with his sentiments. Perhaps the right hon. gentleman thought that his notions were pretty well understood and it was much better for him to act consistently, and say nothing; feeling that
480
481
Mr. Abercromby
rose to reply. At least, Sir, (said the hon. and learned member) thus much has been gained for the people of Scotland—that no honourable member has ventured to vindicate the state of the representation of the city of Edinburgh. No one has had the hardihood to say, that he will undertake the defence of the existing representative 6ystem in Scotland. The hon. member for Yorkshire has insinuated, that reformers are generally republicans. At least, I am not a republican; for the leading principle of the reform I contend for, is to produce such a gradual and wholesome change in the representation of the people, as to arrest all danger of the establishment of a republic. Those, indeed, may be truly called republicans, who, adhering to antiquated defects, and modern corruptions, refuse to listen to the voice of a well-informed people calling for a rational change and an easy remedy. I am well assured, that, as education has advanced in this country the desire of reform has advanced also, and
482
483
484
485
The House divided: Ayes, 75. Noes, 99. Majority against Mr. Abercromby's motion, 24. The result of the division was announced, amidst loud cheering on the Opposition side of the House.
List of the Majority, and also of the Minority
MAJORITY.
A'Court, A. H.
Dawson, G. H.
Alexander, J.
Disbrowe, W. C.
Arbuthnot, rt. hon. C.
Davenport, D.
Ashurst, W. H.
Dawkins, H.
Astley, sir J. D.
Douglas, J.
Balfour, J.
Downie, R.
Baker, E.
Dundas, rt. hon. W.
Bathurst, hon. S. T.
Dunlop, James
Blair, James
Denison, J.
Bourne, rt. hon. W. S.
East, sir Hyde
Brownlow, C.
Eastnor, visc.
Bruce, R.
Ellis, C. R.
Boyd, W.
Ellison, C.
Burgh, sir U.
Eastcourt, T. G.
Chetwynd, G.
Fleming, J. (Saltash)
Calvert, J.
Forbes, sir C.
Campbell, A.
Fynes, C. H.
Canning, rt. hon. G.
Gilbert, D. G.
Cartwright, W. R.
Gladstone, J.
Cherry, G. H.
Gordon, hon. W.
Clerk, sir G.
Goulburn, rt. hon. H.
Clinton, sir W. H.
Herries, W. C.
Clive, hon. R.
Holford, G. P.
Cockerell, sir C.
Holmes, W.
Cocks, James
Hotham, lord
Copley, sir J. S.
Huskisson, rt. hon W.
Cotterell, sir J. G.
Horton, R. W.
Cripps, Joseph
King, hon. H.
Croker, J. W.
Lamb, hon. W.
Cumming, G.
Littleton, E. J.
Curteis, E. J.
Long, rt. hon. sir C.
486
Lowther, visc.
Rogers, E.
Lushington, S. R.
Ross, Charles
Macnaughton, E. A.
Sandon, visc.
Martin, sir Byam
Scott, hon. W. H. S.
Magennis, R.
Seymour, H.
Martin, R.
Somerset, lord G.
Miles, P. J.
Sotheron, F.
Monteith, H.
Stuart, W. (Armagh)
Morland, sir S. B.
Thompson, W.
Mundy, G.
Thompson, J. L.
Nichol, rt. hon. sir J.
Trench, F. W.
Nightingale, sir M.
Walpole, hon. J.
Paget hon. B.
Wellesley, R.
Palmerston, lord
Wetherell, C.
Peel, rt. Hon. R.
Wilson, W. W. C.
Peel, W. Y.
Wynn, C. W.
Phillimore, J.
Wortley, J. S. junr.
Prendergast, M, G.
TELLERS.
Rae, sir W.
Stewart, Wortley, J.
Robinson, rt. hon. F.
Binning, lord
MINORITY.
Althorp, visc.
Marjoribanks, S.
Baring, Alex.
Martin, J.
Baring, sir T.
Milton, visc.
Benyon, B.
Monck, J. B.
Bernal, R.
Newman, R. W.
Brougham, H.
Newport, sir J.
Bury, visc.
Ord, W.
Bentinck, ld. W. H. C.
Palmer, C.
Calcraft, J.
Palmer, C. F.
Carter, J.
Pares, T.
Chaloner, R.
Pym, F.
Clifton, visc.
Portman, E. B.
Coffin, sir I.
Ramsden, J. C.
Colborne, N. W. R.
Rice, T. S.
Creevey, T.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Crompton, S.
Robarts, A. W.
Evans, W.
Robarts, G. J.
Ellis, hon. G. A.
Robinson, sir G.
Farrand, R.
Rumbold, C. E.
Gaskill, B.
Russell, lord J.
Graham, S.
Russell, lord G. W.
Grattan, J.
Scott, James
Guise, sir B. W.
Smith, John
Gordon, R.
Stanley, hon. E. C.
Haldimand, W,
Stanley, lord
Hamilton, lord A.
Stuart, lord P. I. C.
Heathcote, G. J.
Sykes, Daniel
Heron, sir R.
Tennyson, Charles
Hobhouse, J. C.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Honywood, W. P.
Warre, J. A.
Hume, J.
Webbe, Edward
James, W.
Western, C. C.
Johnstone, W. A.
Williams, John
Lamb. hon. G.
Wyvill, M.
Leycester, R.
Wrottesley, sir John
Lethbridge, sir T.
Whitmore, W. W.
Maberly, J.
TELLERS.
Macdonald, J.
Abercromby, hon, J.
Mackintosh, sir J.
Kennedy, T. F.
BEAR BAITING AND OTHER CRUEL
Mr. R. Martin
rose, according to notice, and stated, that the motion which he had to propose was, that a
487
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489
Sir R. Heron
rose to give his utmost opposition to the motion of the hon. member, and he begged the House not to sanction such a petty, trumpery, and he would add, such a blundering kind of legislation. He would explain what he meant by the term "blundering kind of legislation," as that which had been adopted by the hon. member. In the course of the last-session, the hon. member had said, that he would not touch upon bull-baiting, because he thought he was likely to be opposed in it; and yet, the other evening he had gloried in the attempt to put it down. This he would call a blundering mode of legislation; for an hon. member to glory at one time for having attempted that which, a short time before, he had declared he did not intend. Perhaps, the hon. member had intended to give the House one bull instead of another. He would oppose this motion, because he thought it went to trench upon the amusements of the people, and he did not think that they ought to be trenched upon unnecessarily. The legislature had not shown itself very favourable to the sports of the common people. He could not believe that the higher orders were cruel in their sports, or that the lower orders, who imitated those above them were cruel in theirs. The hon. member who brought this forward had either gone too far, or not far enough on this occasion. In his opinion, he went too far; but, on the hon. member's own principle, he would ask him what he thought of cock-fighting? or what he thought of another kind of sport, in which he did not know whether the hon. member indulged; namely, that of torturing
490
Mr. W. Peel
said, he gave credit to his hon. friend, for the excellent motives that actuated him, but he could not avoid seeing the gross inconsistency and partiality of the law that was proposed. They who were daily in the habit of pursuing amusements which had some degree of cruelty (though, perhaps, not quite so much as those complained of), were called upon to suppress the amusements of others, on the ground of cruelty. Now, unless the members of the House were disposed to give up their sports, he saw not how they could interfere with the sports of others. Bear-baiting and badger-baiting might not be very favourable to morality; but the: people might say that it was not very favourable to morality for the higher classes, to assemble on Saturday night and continue till Sunday morning at the Opera; If his hon. friend would legislate—for which he saw no necessity—he would recommend him to fly at higher game, and abolish all cruel sports. The existing law, if enforced, would put an end to the disorderly meetings which his hon. friend complained of, and he could therefore see no ground whatever for the motion.
Mr. J. Smith
said, that, although a part of the ridicule which had been directed against his hon. friend might devolve upon himself, he should nevertheless give the motion his support, and state the reason that induced him to do so. Nothing had been brought forward against the motion which could be fairly
491
Mr. Secretary Peel
disclaimed any intention to throw ridicule on the motion. There was nothing ludicrous in the subject, though there might be in the way of treating it; and, if his hon. friend himself smiled at the hon. baronet's illustration of his argument from the mode of eating
492
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494
"Compound for sports they are inclined to,
By damning those they have no mind to."
495
Mr. R. Martin
replied, amidst cries of question. The sports, he said, which he had left untouched, did not equal in cruelty those which he wished to prohibit, if they did, he would equally attack them. His right hon. friend therefore, had not answered his arguments. His right hon. friend, said, that shooting was as barbarous as the practices of the Westminster pit, and as tearing animals to pieces. If this were the case, his right hon. friend might like to pay the Westminster pit a visit. He knew his right hon. friend was Very partial to shooting, and indulged in it freely; and he did not see why he should not also indulge a little in the sports of bear-baiting. He was sure the keeper of the Westminster pit, when he should learn what his right hon. friend had said would appropriate a box to the right hon. gentleman, and select some
white day
496
CHURCH RATES IN IRELAND.]
Mr. Gouldburn
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the act of Geo. IV. c. 68. relative to church rates in Ireland. The House would recollect, that an act was passed last session, to extend an act which already existed in England, to Ireland. By the act as applied to England, there were certain powers vested in the lord chancellor of England, and the amendment which he now meant to propose was, that the same powers should, with regard to Ireland, be vested in the lord chancellor of that country. The right hon. gentleman then moved for leave to bring in the bill.
Sir J. Newport
said, he had before expressed his opinion of this bill and to that opinion he should adhere. A more mischievous bill—a bill, more fraught with oppression, or more calculated to do mischief—had never passed. Little time had been allowed, when the bill passed that House, to discuss or oppose it, and he had been surprised, on a reference to documents which he had found in another place, to see it stated, that this measure had undergone ample discussion in that
497
Mr. Goulburn
said, that the right hon. baronet could not complain that the bill had not been discussed, for it had been delayed night after night, at his own request. He was convinced that nobody could maintain the present bill had caused any oppression, unless he was ignorant of the law as it stood before this act extended to Ireland.
Sir J. Newport
said, he might be ignorant of the law as it at present stood. It was some years ago since he had made the law of Ireland his study; but, of what it was before the right hon. gentleman made all his innovations, he was not so ignorant as the right hon. gentleman.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
AUSTRIAN LOAN CONVENTION.]
Mr. Hume
said, that his object was, to ask for information on the early part of this transaction. He could not believe that his majesty's government had come to a resolution respecting so large a sum of money, and to pay so large a discount, without some written proposal having been made. The House had had laid on their table the answer to the proposal of the contractors for the payment of 2,500,000
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498
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had flattered himself that recent discussions had satisfied the mind of the hon. gentleman, that nothing had taken place in the transaction in question of a secret or objectionable nature; and he still hoped that what had been already said was satisfactory to the House generally. If the hon. gentleman wanted a precedent for the transaction, he could not gratify him; for upon consulting the records of the Treasury, he had not been able to find any relating to a matter of at all a similar character. The hon. gentleman did not seem to understand this business, which had proceeded briefly thus: The Austrian government had proposed to give us a certain amount of Austrian stock: but that would have been a most unsatisfactory mode of settlement; for if this government had taken stock, they must have gone into the market with it. What they could have done in that case, he really did not understand, though he had no doubt they would have made but an indifferent bargain. This government would have been liable upon its sales to all the fluctuations to which the stocks were exposed. It was therefore thought the better plan to ascertain in what mariner they could get at some money instead. The Austrian government agreed to this proposition; but, having no means of raising the requisite amount of money within their own territories, they employed certain capitalists in this country. This government then desired to know what money those capitalists could afford to give for this stock; and it was perfectly true, that in the beginning of the transaction, and before an offer was finally made, some written communications had passed between the contractors and the Treasury. The contractors, at length, on behalf of Austria, produced their
ultimatum;
Mr. Hume
still thought, that if such a paper as he smoke of was in existence,
499
Mr. Baring
wished to furnish that information which his hon. friend seemed not to be in possession of. Undoubtedly, the offer alluded to did not exist as a document. There was no written papers of the kind. It was, on the part of those gentlemen who were interested with him (Mr. Baring}, a specific proposal, in which the Treasury had finally acquiesced. After considerable discussions about the terms of payment, before the offer was made, it was at last made verbally, not by himself, but by one of the parties. Therefore no such paper existed. In the first place he would observe, that he fully concurred with the hon. gentleman in that general principle which he (Mr. B.) had so often advocated; namely, that transactions of this kind should be public. But, in the present case, there was no public operation to be performed, because the Austrian minister of Finance had made up his mind to give only a certain amount of stock and the government of this country determined to accept it. In the next place, the Austrian bankers at Vienna became, in the meanwhile, mixed up with the transction. They had granted a loan themselves to their government, and it was understood there should be no other without their consent. They therefore necessarily became parties to the transaction, and nothing could be done without their consent. Their government, again, could not send their stock here, through any other channel but the English government; nor would it have been decent in the latter, under the circumstances, to treat that stock in the public way that would have been then requisite. The Contractors saw lord Liverpool and the chancellor of the Exchequer in the first
500
Mr. Maberly
conceived, that the objection of his hon. friend was directed rather against the principle of contracting loans in secret, than against the actual terms that had been obtained. The recovery of the loan itself was, as the chancellor of the Exchequer had well described it, a God send, for the emperor of Austria might in fairness have got rid of the whole thing, in consequence of the negligence of our government in omitting to press the claim. He thought, with the secretary of state for the foreign department, that the emperor of Austria might have got rid, with fairness and justice, even of the payment which he had now consented to make. At the treaty of Paris, the emperor had transferred to another power his dominions in the Netherlands, for the defence of which dominions this loan had been contracted. He had, therefore, a right to say to the government of this country, "I have parted with the Netherlands, and the debt which I contracted for them must go along with the ceded provinces." In not using that language, the emperor of Austria had acted like a man of the highest honour.
Mr. Secretary Canning,
after repeating his former eulogium on the honourable conduct of the emperor of Austria throughout the whole of this transaction, proceeded to show that the motion of the hon. member for Aberdeen was founded on a mistake. That hon. member seemed to imagine, that the British government had been in possession of the stock before there had been any intervention of the British bankers, and that it could therefore have gone into the market, and asked who would give the most money for the stock it had obtained. Now, this had never been the case. The Austrian government had wished to pay in a quantity of stock, and the British government to get paid in a determinate sum of money. When this became evident to the Austrian government, it became a question with Austria, how she should change her stock into money; and the money question in the first case arose with the Austrian bankers. It was not until the English houses had placed themselves in the situation of representatives of the emperor of Austria that any negotiation had been commenced with them by the British government, and during no part of that negotiation had
501
Mr. Hobhouse
asked a question relative to the nett amount that was to be paid into the Exchequer on account of this loan.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that the nett amount would be about 2,200,000
l.,
Mr. James
complained, that the money so long kept back by Austria should be so much diminished as it must be by the percentage allowed to the contractors.
The motion was negatived.
POSTAGE RATES—NEWSPAPERS IN
The House resolved itself into a Committee on the Postage Rates. On the resolution relative to the rate of postage to the colonies,
Mr. Hume
rose to inquire, why newspapers were not sent as free of postage to the colonies as they were to the Isle of Man and to Ireland? The high rate of postage at which they were charged prevented a free dissemination of knowledge between the parent state and the colonies. By returns which had been laid on the table, he observed that, for some time past, the number of newspapers sent to our colonial dependencies had been regularly diminishing. In 1810, the number of daily papers sent to them amounted to only 383; in 1817, they had diminished to 271, and in 1821, to 206. This was attributable to the high rate of postage charged upon them. A daily paper was charged 12
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s
502
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that as he had not expected this question to come on this evening, he had omitted to bring down with him a memorandum which would have enabled him to inform the hon. member, when the act of parliament was passed by which this postage was enacted. It was, however, an act of old date which imposed this postage, and which authorized certain officers of the Post-office to apply it to their own use. He was sure that all who heard him would agree, that there were no public officers who deserved a liberal remuneration more than the gentlemen engaged in the Post-office. Mr. Freeling was one of the most useful public officers in the country, and was therefore entitled to be most liberally dealt with. He had a fact to relate, which he thought would convince the hon. member that he would best consult the public convenience by withdrawing his motion. It would be recollected that, in the last year, the commissioners of inquiry had received powers to inquire into the various fees and emoluments received by the different clerks in the Post-office. They were now engaged upon that inquiry, and he thought it would be greatly impeded, if the House should come to a resolution to repeal those acts. Pie therefore trusted that the hon. member would withdraw his motion. If he did not, he must meet it with a decided negative.
Mr. Hume
said, he had no objection to to put off his motion, if any inconvenience was likely to arise from it; provided the right hon. gentleman did not mean to let the question drop. He trusted there would be no objection to the insertion of a clause in the act of parliament, authorising the Treasury to carry such a measure into immediate execution, if the commissioners of inquiry should recommend it. His object in suggesting such a clause was, to guard against the evil of postponing the operation to another year.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
disapproved altogether of such a singular mode of legislation. They had no right to conjecture what the commissioners might propose, and therefore none to adopt any proceeding founded on the anticipation of their judgment.
Mr. Hume
said, that all he wished was, to guard against the loss of a whole year,
503
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he could not pledge himself as to the time when the report would be made, but he was certain that no unnecessary delay would take place.
Mr. J. Martin
said, that as the postage rates were before the House, he wished to ask a question relative to a project which existed some years ago of building a new Post-office. He believed that 140,000
l
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
admitted, that this project had for some time past been in abeyance. By the act for building a new Post-office, the city had been compelled to advance a certain sum of money, and had actually advanced 80,000
l
Mr. Baring
wished to know whether the city had given the sum which it had been originally agreed that it should contribute. He had understood, that the
504
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the city had complied with all the terms which had been demanded of it. He was sorry to observe, that a large sum had been expended in obtaining the objects which the hon. member had just mentioned.
Mr. Alderman Wood
added, that the city had not merely complied with the terms exacted from it, but had also been 30,000
l
Mr. Hume
said, that there was another point to which he wished to call the attention of the right hon. gentleman. On Saturday, Sunday, and Monday, no foreign post left London. This was found very inconvenient by several merchants; and it had been suggested to him to ask, whether some alteration could not be made in the present practice, so that the foreign post should go out on alternate days throughout the week.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
gave no answer to this question,
The amendment was withdrawn, and the resolutions agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, February 27, 1824
CONDUCT OF Mr. CHETWYND, A MEMBER—CASE OF CHARLES FLINT.]
Mr. Denman
rose to present a Petition, which he deemed to be one of very considerable importance, especially when he considered the vast powers which had been conferred on magistrates by a late act of parliament. The petition was from a Mr. Charles Flint, complaining of the conduct of a magistrate of the county of Stafford, acting as chairman of the court of Quarter Sessions in that county, who was also a member of that House; and he must say, looking to all the circumstances of the case, that the conduct of that magistrate appeared to call for a considerable degree of inquiry. He had felt it right to communicate to that hon. gentleman (Mr. Chetwynd), the contents of this petition; and, though it was not without pain that he brought forward an imputation on the conduct of any member of that House, he certainly thought that the statements made by the petitioner required to be rebutted by strong circumstances of justification, be-
505
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507
508
509
510
l
Mr. Holme Sumner
said, he rose for the purpose of opposing the bringing up the petition. Its sole object seemed to be to cast an imputation upon a most excellent and respectable magistrate, and a member of that House. When the House considered the talents and attainments of the
511
Mr. Chetwynd
then rose and addressed the House to the following effect, evidently under the influence of very strong feelings—Mr. Speaker; I rise to present my most earnest prayer that the petition, which has just been presented to the House, may be brought up and read; for I should hold myself unworthy ever again to rise to address you—I should consider myself disqualified from ever again sitting on the justice seat—if, upon the ground of any technical informality, I objected to having the Petition received; or if I gave the slightest opposition to the most complete and unrestricted investigation of each and every one of the allegations it contains. I am, Sir, at this moment prepared to go through the details of that petition sentence by sentence; and, if it shall not ap-
512
The Attorney-General
(sir J. Copley) said, he was anxious to make a few remarks upon this subject, as it had fallen to his lot to be acquainted with some of the facts of the case. And first, he wished to advert to a statement contained in the conclusion of his hon. and learned friend's speech; he meant with respect to Mr. Abraham Flint, the brother of the petitioner. The fact was this: an application was made to lord Sidmouth, in the shape of a petition, to mitigate the sentence which had been passed upon him by his hon. and learned friend the member for Stafford. That petition was supported by the interference of his hon. and learned friend, but, after a perusal of the circumstances of the case, lord Sidmouth had been of opinion, that there were no grounds for a mitigation of the sentence. However, not satisfied with having gone so far, as soon as lord Sidmouth had retired from office, and was succeeded by his right hon. friend (Mr. Peel), so far from any prejudice remaining in the mind of his hon. and learned friend against that individual that he actually renewed his application to the secretary of state, and, on the second occasion, his prayer was attended with success, and his right hon. friend consented to yield to his intreaties. Then, he would boldly ask, what pretence was there for an imputation of undue prejudice in the mind of his hon. friend, against the present petitioner, or against any member of his family? Did not his own conduct furnish the best refutation [cheers]? Now, with respect to the present charge what were the facts? An individual was supposed to be guilty of a violation of the law, and having been arrested by a constable, an immense crowd of people assemble to the number of four or five hundred, for the purpose of rescuing him from the constituted authorities. He hoped the House would not be led away by the
ex parte
513
514
Mr. Denman.
—Do you mean for five hours in all?
The Attorney General.
—Yes; for five hours altogether. He was subsequently employed in carding and spinning wool, and, on a further representation from the individual, he was allowed to remain entirely idle. As to his having been shut up for forty days, and deprived of any intercourse, and of his being allowed nothing but bread and water—points which were contained in the petition—as his hon. and learned friend had not touched upon them, he should say nothing; but he would just put the matter to the House in this way. In consequence of the publication of statements in the London papers, similar to those in the petition, his hon. friend (Mr. Chetwynd) had moved for and obtained a criminal information, in the court of King's-bench; his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Denman) had stated, that there were some observations upon the statements, which also formed a ground for the application. Whether this were the case or not, he was not prepared to say; but the main charge was the statement which was now repeated in the petition. The House were aware, that the court of King's-bench never granted a criminal information, until all the facts were disproved upon oath; so that all the material allegations had been contradicted upon affidavit by his hon. friend, by Mr. Clair, by the agent of sir G. Jerningham, by the task-master of the prison,
515
ex parte
The Solicitor General
(Mr. Wetherell) said, that putting out of consideration for the moment, the talents and character, and gratuitous services of his hon. and learned friend, the member for Stafford, he should contend, that no magistrate in the country ought to be left at the mercy of such a petition as that which had been offered to the House. Three courses were open to the petitioner; the one was, to move for a criminal information against his hon. and learned friend; the second was, a petition to the great seal; and the next, an application to the lord-lieutenant of the county. But, instead of this, the petitioner had called upon the House to form itself into a court of criminal jurisprudence, which they were not competent to do; and, if the House should resolve to entertain this petition, they would knock out of the lists all the ordinary and constitutional modes of redress. Until he was satisfied that all the ordinary means had been resorted to, he should not consent to the receiving this petition. His hon. and learned friend had called upon the House for an opportunity of vindicating his character; but, would the
516
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that on the subject of the presentation of the petition, or the propriety of receiving it, he should not say one word; for, in that respect, he felt himself somewhat in the situation of his hon. friend, the member for Stafford, inasmuch as the exercise of his judgment had been called in question. But, if an inquiry were to be set on foot, and he were called upon to account for the reasons why he had abstained from advising the Crown to exercise the prerogative of mercy, then he should endeavour to give a satisfactory explanation of his decision. There were three points upon which blame was attributed to him in his official capacity; the first was, the nature of the inquiry which he had instituted; the next was, the delay in commencing it; and the third was, his not having advised the Crown to exercise the prerogative of mercy. With respect to the two first, he should endeavour to give a satisfactory explanation. On the last, he should be silent; because it would be impossible to explain the various motives that would induce one to abstain from giving such advice without going into a full detail of the particulars of the case. The two preliminary points, as to the nature of the inquiry and the delay, he should proceed to explain, and from that explanation, the House would draw an inference as to the propriety of the other. The first case was that of Abraham Flint: and it had been very justly stated, that his first act on his
517
Mr. Denman
said, he had been quite misunderstood. He did not of himself impute any delay to the right hon. gentleman: he had merely stated, that one of the allegations contained in the petition was, that the memorial had been detained for a considerable time, he had expressed no surprise, nor made any complaint, and for this reason, that he did not know at what date the memorial had reached the right hon. gentleman.
518
Mr. Peel,
in continuation, said, that on the 6th of December he received the first communication on the subject, and that was contained in a letter from Mr. Tooke, the law-agent of Mr. Flint, and he requested that he might have an opportunity of stating the circumstances of the case to the secretary of state. He was not at all aware of any such trial having taken place, until the receipt of this intimation, and accordingly he sent back an answer to Mr. Tooke, stating, "That if it would be any satisfaction to Mr. Tooke to see Mr. Peel on the subject of Flint's case, he should be ready to receive any communication. But it was Mr. Peel's invariable course not to act upon a statement in any criminal case, that was not communicated in writing." Any one at all acquainted with proceedings in criminal cases, would at once perceive the policy of this rule. Upon the 6th of December he received the first intimation of the transaction, and he immediately applied for information; and on the 17th of the same month he received the answer; so that the period that had elapsed between the 6th and 17th of December was all the delay that had been complained of. Then, with respect to the nature of the inquiry, he in the first instance applied to his hon. friend (Mr. Chetwynd), and he should be ashamed, if, while he professed to repose confidence in him, he had applied to any other. His hon. friend was not content with sending back a short and immediate answer, but had entered into a detail of all the evidence, and had sent besides a literal transcript of the charge which he had delivered to the jury, and had concluded, by requesting him (Mr. Peel) to judge for himself what course he should pursue. It was not his intention to enter into an explanation of the course which he did adopt; he should content himself by stating, that he felt quite satisfied that the sentence was a just and lenient one, and that he would have acted imprudently if he had advised the Crown to interpose the royal prerogative.
Mr. Littleton
said, that notwithstanding all that had been offered, he could not forbear from making a few remarks. It appeared to him, that the charges were wholly without foundation; for he believed, in the administration of justice, or in the performance of the other magisterial duties, a more scrupulous magistrate did not exist than his hon. friend. He
519
Mr. Sturges Bourne
said, he could not
520
Mr. Hume
deprecated any decision on the part of the House, which would go to shut its doors against the complaints of the people. If he understood his hon. and learned friend who presented the petition rightly, the petitioner was ready to verify the truth of his allegations, not only on his own oath, but by the testimony of other witnesses. Recollecting that such was the statement of his hon. and learned friend, he could not but consider him rather hardly dealt with, when hon. members imputed to him the attempt to identify himself with the petition. He knew nothing of the particulars of the petition, but from the spirit with which it was met, there appeared something like a grudge, which excited in his mind a degree of suspicion. Let, however, the complaint be received; let the petitioner at least be allowed to lay his statement on the table, and then, if an investigation should take place, the merits of the case would be understood. This would be acting upon the principle of justice to all parties. But, at all events, there was this higher question; namely, that the doors of the House of Commons ought to be thrown open to the petitions of the people.
Sir John Wrottesley
said, he had signed the resolution of the magistrates passed in approbation of the conduct of the chairman and concurred in every thing that had been advanced by the Attorney-general upon the same subject. He had, however, made one reservation, which had not been strictly observed; namely, that the resolution should not be directly published. His reason for thinking it unfit for present publication was, that the conduct of his worthy and excellent friend, the chairman, had been attacked in one of the public Journals, the British Press, in a manner which he would not stigmatize with any particular epithets
521
Sir Robert Wilson
said, he had listened with great attention to all that had been offered by hon. members against the reception of the petition. The hon. member for Surrey had opposed it, on the ground of the hardships to which the magistracy of the country who were not orators and rhetoricians, or so well able to defend themselves as the hon. member for Stafford, would be exposed, if petitions of the character of the present, were received by that House. The learned Attorney-general had opposed the reception, because he denied the truth of its allegations. The hon. member himself, whose conduct was attacked, with a feeling that was highly creditable to him, had expressed a solicitude to have the whole proceedings inquired into. He knew nothing of the particulars, but after such an avowal by the hon. member for Stafford, he considered the conduct of his friends at least injudicious. The new tone assumed that night, in speaking of the petitions of the people, ought to be met in the commencement with reprehension. Were the doors of the House of Commons to be closed against the people of England? If he stood alone he should divide the House against such an attempt.
Mr. Wynn
observed, that ever since the House of Commons had been a house of Commons one uniform custom had prevailed with reference to the receiving of petitions. No member, it was held, was justified in presenting a petition, unless he was prepared to pledge himself to the truth of its allegations [No no, from the Opposition]. No individual, he would repeat, had a right to make the access to that House a matter of convenience for himself in attacking the character of magistrates and others. The members of that House were bound to present no pe-
522
Mr. Bright
said, he had not a single doubt of the truth of all that had been urged in defence of the conduct of his excellent and very worthy friend, the member for Stafford, but, throwing aside all personal feeling and consideration, he called upon the House and especially upon the country gentlemen present, to reflect deeply how far the conduct recommended with regard to this petition agreed with the right of the people to present petitions to parliament, which right was secured to them by the great charter. He would assent to the withdrawing of the petition, but not to the opposition made to bringing it up. He never would consent to so dangerous ah encroachment on the people's rights. Were they really prepared to say, that because a magistrate happened to be a member of that House, the House would not hear any petition accusing him of malversation? The right hon. gentleman said, that a member presenting a petition, was bound to take care that there was nothing disrespectful to the House in it. But, would any one say that a petition was disrespectful to the House, which sought the interference of the House in a case of alleged oppression? For what purpose did they sit there, if not to listen to the complaints of the people? It was said, that the complaint in the petition, if true, was matter tryable by the ordinary jurisdictions. He allowed that that might be the more proper course: but it was one thing to deny the truth of a petition or the propriety of its appeal, and another to refuse to hear it. It did not fellow that they must adopt its suggestions, or that a member might not be prepared to
523
Mr. Canning
expressed a desire to know, whether it was the intention of the hon. and learned gentleman to withdraw the petition or not?
Mr. Denman
said, he could not give a positive answer, as he understood that an hon. friend would not consent to its being withdrawn.
Mr. Canning
said, that his wish was that the petition should be withdrawn. If it were not, he must oppose its being brought up, simply on the ground, that it prayed for that which it was impossible for the House to grant, namely, that it would reconsider and reverse the verdict of a jury.
Mr. Peel
said, that the hon. and learned member seemed to be displeased with him for not reversing the sentence of the Quarter Sessions. With regard to his own individual feelings, he could have no objection to the adoption of that course by the petitioner, with a view to a revision of the case; and if the petition were withdrawn, the case would stand just as favourably as before for that purpose.
Mr. S. Wortley
entreated his hon. friend the member for Surry, not to per-
524
Mr. Sumner
considered the petition a gross abuse of the privilege of the House, and could not yield to the wishes of those who expressed a desire to allow it to be withdrawn.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it appeared to him that the argument brought forward by the hon. member for Surry would apply, if the hon. and learned gentleman persisted in pressing the House to receive the petition, but it had no application if the hon. and learned gentleman wished to withdraw it.
Mr. Denman
observed, that although he knew he had no right to reply, yet as he had had so large a share in this business, he trusted the House would allow him to say a few words. It had been supposed by some hon. gentleman, that he had mixed himself too much up with the merits of the petition. Now, the truth was, that he had not offered any opinion whatever on the disputed facts. But those who made that assertion, seemed to forget that the strongest part of the impression made against the petition, consisted of a number of allegations by the hon. and learned attorney-general, who had acted as counsel for the hon. member for Stafford; and yet the House would not listen to the original allegations against which that counter-statement was made. It was very possible that the allegations of the petition were false; but that was no reason for refusing to receive it. It was enough that the petitioner felt himself aggrieved. If his petition was couched in respectful language towards the House, and distinctly stated the grievance of which he complained, he (Mr. D.) conceived, that any member was bound in duty to present it. He did not mean that the serjeant-at-arms might run after him and insist on his doing so; but he was bound in the ordinary acceptation of the term. According to some hon. gentlemen, however, a petitioner, in such a case as the present, was bound rather to make an application to the lord-lieutenant of the county, and then to the court of chancery, to wait at the door there until all the appeals from other courts, the bankrupt causes, the chancery suits, &c, were disposed of, in order that the lord chancellor might then, perhaps, have leisure to examine whether the magistrate complained of ought to be struck out of the commission. Was not the ship-money case a grievance? yet
525
The petition was then withdrawn.
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply,
Sir H. Hardinge
rose for the purpose of moving the Ordnance Estimates. He' observed, that he was not disposed to trouble the committee with any preliminary remarks on estimates, which, he trusted, would speak for themselves. Without any further preface, therefore, he would endeavour to give as clear an idea as possible of the subject, to which it was his duty to call the attention of the committee." That subject divided itself into three distinct heads—Ordnance, Barracks, and Commissariat of stores. And first, with respect to the Ordnance. The sum which it was proposed to vote this year for Ordnance was 978,342
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526
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527
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528
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529
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Mr. Hume
observed, that he must do the hon. and gallant officer the justice to say, that in many respects the Ordnance estimates of the present year were much superior, in point of arrangement, to any that had heretofore been prepared. Whatever difference of opinion there might be with respect to the amount of those estimates, whoever looked at them would immediately find himself capable of comprehending all the items and charges without the slightest difficulty. In that respect certainly great progress had been made in improvement, and so far much good had been secured to the public. He thought, however, he could very clearly prove to the committee, that the reduction which had taken place in the expenses of the Ordnance, was by no means so great as they had a right to expect. The committee of Finance, in the year 1817, had given what might be considered an approximation to what they considered was the reduction to be justly expected at certain periods, in every department of the public service. He held in his hand an abstract of the respective amount of the Ordnance estimates voted since the year 1817; and the committee would, perhaps, be surprised to learn, that the grant in 1819 (exclusive of the unprovided services) amounted only to 1,191,905
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531
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532
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533
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Sir H. Hardinge
thought, that the reduction in the number of the clerks in Pall-mall, and at the Tower, had been quite as great as the quantity of public business would allow. In 1818, the number of clerks was 187, since which time no less than 26 had been removed, although the barrack and commissariat departments had both been transferred to the Ordnance. As to the objection made by the hon. member respecting the old stores, he begged to point out that this was the mode particularly recommended by the military finance committee, and had been adopted in consequence of that recommendation. With respect to the absence of the Lieutenant-general, he could assure the committee that, although the noble lord had been unavoidably absent on private business, the conduct of the Board of Ordnance had been perfectly justifiable. It was well known, that lord Beresford had been connected with the Portuguese Government, and had commanded the Portuguese army. For some time he was separated from it, and on his return from Rio Janeiro, he was not allowed to land at Lisbon. He came to England, and when a favourable opportunity offered, he applied to be allowed to return to Portugal. He went thither in the beginning of October, and about the end of November, the Master-general of the Ordnance wrote to lord Beresford, stating that it would be exceedingly desirable that he should return before the end of December, because the duties of the Lieutenant-general pressed very heavily upon the Master-general, and other members of the Board. Lord Beresford had written back, that he could not arrange his private affairs so soon, and therefore that he must resign. Upon him, therefore, there did not rest the slightest imputation. The duties of his office might be considered in a two-fold light: first it was the business of the Lieutenant-general to act in the absence of the Master-general; and secondly, he had to discharge his own functions as a Board Offi-
534
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Mr. Hume,
in reply, said, that he had expected to hear some reason assigned for the magnitude of the establishment of the Ordnance, being reduced as it was to what was termed by the gallant officer the lowest amount. No reply had been attempted to what he had advanced as to the propriety of further economy, it was no answer to say, that 90,000
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535
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The committee then divided—For the Amendment, 19—For the Original Resolution, 89—Majority 70.
List of the Minority.
Allan, J. H.
Martin, J.
Althorp, viscount
Monck, J. B.
Benyon, B.
Newport, sir J.
Davies, T.
Rickford, W.
Grenfell, P.
Smith, J.
Haldimand, W.
Sykes, D.
Heron, sir R.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Wood, M.
James, W.
TELLER.
Leycester, R.
Hume, Joseph
Maberly, W. L.
On the resolution, "That 35,841
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Mr. Hume
called the attention of the committee to the sums included in this last resolution, for officers of the Ordnance in the Islands of Zante and Corfu. This country ought not to be called upon to make good this sum; inasmuch as by a
536
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Mr. Hume
begged to repeat briefly the objections he had formerly urged to the vote for so large a sum of money for such a purpose. He thought the numbers of the corps of artillery a great deal too large. It was happily never wanted at home, was never likely to be wanted, and was not sent abroad; so that, in fact, in time of peace, it was wholly useless, and a needless expense to the country. There were 5,691 artillery, besides supernumeraries, making in the whole a force of 7,256 men. This establishment was, at the present moment, considerably more than double what it had been at the beginning of the last French war. The artillery could not be of the slightest use without a large regular army; and if three or four battalions were reduced, there would still remain a larger proportion than was at all necessary for the present amount of the army of the empire. He did not complain of the artillery, which was a most efficient body; but there might be too much of a good thing, and a very considerable reduction might be effected, to bring it to the proportion of the rest of our military establishment.
Sir H. Hardinge
defended the propriety of keeping a large body of artillery on foot. It was a corps of all others the most difficult to raise. If a war broke out, it could not be created in a moment; and therefore it was necessary to have a considerable force of that description in readiness.
Mr. Hume
said, he founded his objection on the statement of ministers, who had declared that there was no chance of war. They denied that a war was at all likely to occur; and therefore there was no necessity for such a force.
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Mr. Hume
wished to ask for some explanation as to the circumstances under which sir Benjamin Bloomfield had been brought back to the artillery corps, and had been taken from half-pay to the com-
537
Sir H. Hardinge
said, that by the regulation of 1814, it was arranged, that the officers of the horse-artillery, should succeed to the brigade, not according to their regimental rank in the corps, but with reference to their brevet rank in the army. In 1818, the Master-general thought it advisable to alter that arrangement. When the death of the commander of the brigade took place, sir B. Bloom-field was, from his rank in the army, the officer next entitled to the command; and as the Master-general felt, that the new regulation would have a retrospective effect with reference to him, he, from a sense of justice, declined enforcing it. It was, however, now settled, that officers should succeed to battalions, according to their rank in the corps, coupled with their general merits.
Mr. Hume
said, he understood a new system had been lately adopted in the artillery. Individuals had been allowed to sell out, in order that others might receive promotion in that corps. He wished to know when that practice first took place; the promotions in consequence; and how far the public expense had been thereby increased.
Sir H. Hardinge
said, the authority to allow artillery officers to sell their commissions was granted last year, for the purpose of assisting the deplorably low state of promotion in that corps, without increasing the public burthens. It was permitted, that a certain number of artillery officers, who had served twenty years, might sell to officers of the line, they being unattached officers on half-pay. Ten lieutenant-colonels, one major, and three captains of the artillery had sold their commissions, which were purchased by officers of the line. The saving by the decrease of half-pay was, 2,463
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538
Mr. Hume
did not mean to blame the arrangement. He rather hoped, that the same benefit would be extended to an other corps, in which the promotion was in the same deplorable condition—.the marine corps. The statement of the number of years service of several members of this corps would surprise the House; and besides the slowness of the promotion, they had been deprived of 25,000
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Sir G. Clerk
said, that on an application from some officers of the marine corps to the Admiralty, they had been informed, that a measure was in progress for their relief, of the same nature as that which had been applied to the artillery; and but for the indisposition of the noble lord at the head of the Admiralty, that measure would have been now in operation. The hon. member, had alluded, to certain honorary offices attached to the marine service, which were given to officers of the navy: but the hon. member should recollect that the naval officers who held these commissions gave up their half-pay, and it would be found that when that was taken; into account, instead of 25,000
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Mr. Hume
protested against this "constitutional link," and he had no doubt, out of 100 officers of the marines, there would not be one who did not consider this as a hardship.
Sir I. Coffin
wished to remind the House, that four years ago, when the marines were increased to 8,000 men, the hon. member had opposed the increase, on the ground that it would "turn the navy into an army." He (sir I. Coffin) had said at that time, that the marines were a most valuable body of men, who had saved the fleet over and over again in mutinies. But for their steady loyalty, we should now have no navy.
Mr. Hume
said, that whatever the gallant admiral might think, there was no inconsistency in his opposition to the increase of the corps, and his present remarks. The corps had been distinguished
539
Sir I. Coffin
said, it was absolutely necessary to have a large body of marines; for in the event of a war, the seamen that could be kept together, were only in proportion to the number of marines. You could not put seamen on board without them; they would go in at one side, and out at the other. The hon. member knew nothing about them. How the devil should he (sir I. Coffin) dislike the marines? Had he not served with them forty years? They were most useful to the navy, and had saved the fleet over and over again.
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Mr. Hume
remarked, that there was in the cadets in this establishment, no such reduction as had been last year promised. It was quite absurd to educate a number of youths at a considerable expense, whom there was no possibility of providing with commissions.
Sir H. Hardinge
said, that the reduction in the number of cadets was not inconsiderable. Last year, there had been 150. There were now 127, though there were 130 mentioned in the estimates. There were many young gentlemen, who had been educated at the academy, who were highly qualified, and for whom it was yet impossible to find commissions. There had been 108 vacancies in the artillery since the peace, which would have been sufficient to have supplied all the gentlemen who were qualified, with commissions; but so great a number of officers had been brought from half to full pay, that it was impossible to bestow
540
Mr. Hume
said, he by no means complained of the government, that they could not find commissions for these young men. They acted much better in giving them to the officers on half-pay, who were entitled to them. What he complained of was, that they should go to the expense of educating boys, to whom they only held out expectations which they could not realize.
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Mr. Hume
wished to call the attention of the committee to the various charges for the fortifications, &c. of those islands and colonies, no part of the revenue of which was brought to the credit of the general revenue of the empire, but was all expended on governors, secretaries, and local officers. He thought a general inquiry should be instituted into the means of those colonies to bear a portion of the expenses which were now charged on the people of this country. The sums, taken separately, in these estimates, were not large; there was 1,374
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541
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Mr. Hume
said, he observed a sum of 9,000
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Sir H. Hardinge
said, a third of the survey of Great Britain had been printed; two-thirds were completed, the whole of the country had been triangulated, and the work would probably be complete in three years.
Sir J. Newport
wished to know whether the long projected survey of Ireland was to take place on the trigonometrical plan. If they were to wail as long for this survey of Ireland, as they had done for the completion of the same survey in Great Britain, he should protest against the measure. Valuable as the survey of Ireland would be for the distribution of the grand jury assessment—in other words, for equalizing the taxation of Ireland-he thought the trigonometrical plan perfectly inapplicable. When completed it would be nearly a nullity and of little use, compared with a parochial survey and valuation.
Mr. Goulburn
said, that, as a motion was soon to be brought forward on the subject of a survey of Ireland, it would not be necessary for him to enter into explanations, further than to say, that the government was satisfied of the necessity of the measure; that they had communicated with the Master-general of the ordnance on the subject, who had made arrangements for carrying through the survey with a rapidity far exceeding that with which the work had proceeded in England.
Sir J. Newport
said, it was now nine years since he had brought down a recommendation from a committee for this survey. He was about to bring in a bill on the subject, when the government undertook to proceed with the measure; but not one step had yet been made.
542
Mr. D. Gilbert
said, that the trigonometrical survey of Ireland, singly taken, would give a very insufficient idea of the value of the country. It would, however, be a considerable step. He thought the country might be triangulated in one year. The details would be afterwards filled in by degrees. The survey of Great Britain had been most creditable to the officers engaged in it, and had raised the country in the eyes of the scientific world.
Colonel Trench
was glad to find the survey was to be undertaken in a scientific way; which would be much superior to the loose parochial surveys.
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Mr. Hume
objected to the unnecessary-expense imposed upon the public for keeping up the powder-mills at Ballin-collig, in Ireland. He wished to know whether it was the intention of ministers to persevere in their demands for that establishment from year to year? It appeared that the public paid 1,200
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Sir H. Hardinge
stated, that the superintending officer was a man of great talent and experience, who had obtained the appointment with an allowance of 600
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Sir J. Newport
did not deny the talents of the officer alluded to, but he denied that such a consideration could justify the government in keeping up a set of mills at a large expense, which were found to be wholly unnecessary. The proper mode of rewarding his services would be by a pension, and not by an agreement of the kind alluded to.
Sir H. Hardinge
said, it was not in the power of the Board of Ordnance to break the agreement with him, on the faith of which he received 600
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543
Mr. Hume
asked the hon. secretary for the Treasury, whether the country was ever to be released from the absurd practice of paying its own servants an extra salary for doing their own business? It was strange indeed, that the Treasury could not disburse the public money without exacting fees for it. Besides this vote of 1,400
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Mr. Herries
said, that the chancellor of the Exchequer had been obliged by indisposition to leave the House, and that the subject referred to was one of such difficulty that he was not himself exactly prepared to answer it. The hon. gentleman must recollect, that some of those fees, were established by patent, and that therefore the persons to whom they were payable had such a vested interest in them as prevented their immediate abolition. Others of them were paid on other grounds to which it was unnecessary for him to allude further than to say, that considerable delicacy ought to be used in meddling with them. With regard to the complexity of the public accounts, he could only say, that it was the earnest wish of the chancellor of the Exchequer to simplify them as much as possible.
Mr. Hume,
in reply, observed that if the chancellor of the Exchequer would grant him a committee next month, he would go into the business of it with great pleasure. As to the patent fees, he had no hesitation in saying, that he should recommend them to be bought up.
Mr. Herries
said, that the hon. member did not appear to be aware, that many of these fees were very beneficial to the public, and absolutely made up a fund out of which many contingent services in the Treasury were paid. The subject was of a complicated nature, and he therefore trusted that the hon. member would not be surprised that he did not give him any further answer in the absence of the chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. Hume
said, that so long as these
544
l
Mr. Hume
said, he could not allow such a sum to be voted without some observation. The House was not aware of the situation in which the country was placed, from its being studded all over with barracks as it was at present. In the year 1797, when we had as many troops as at the present moment, the whole expense for barracks only amounted to 29,000
l
l
s.
l
l
Sir H. Hardinge
said, that the barrack-masters were paid as low as they could be, consistently with the purpose of keeping them respectable; for no one who
545
l
l
Colonel Davies
thought, that the barrack-masters were immoderately paid, especially as, in many instances, they were attached to barracks where there was no troops. It would, he thought, be for the benefit of the country that such barracks should be deserted altogether, and allowed to go to ruin. The hon. baronet had challenged them to put their fingers upon items. The task was not easy, as they had not the details before them; but perhaps, if they were furnished with as minute particulars as it was in the power of government to afford them, many items of gross extravagance would appear. He was surprised to find the sum of 84,000
l
Sir H. Hardinge
observed, that the repairs of the Irish barracks were made under the inspection of a committee, and if government had taken care to send over gentlemen of great experience and
546
Sir J. Newport
said, he would appeal to any military officer, whether many of the barracks in Ireland were not improperly constructed. A great number of them had been built during the last fourteen years, and if they had been well built, could scarcely have required such I incessant and expensive repairs.
Mr. Goulburn
wished to remind the right hon. baronet, and those who had spoken on the same side, that they had no want of intelligence to complain of It was only last session, or the session before, that a detailed statement was laid on the table of the House, containing all the particulars connected with every barrack in the kingdom. Besides, a reduction of the barracks had taken place in Ireland since the war: during the war, there was accommodation for 87,000 men; whereas now there was only accommodation for 36,000.
Mr. Hobhouse
rose to make some remarks on a subject which was particularly interesting to his constituents, and on which he had before put a question to the secretary of war. Seeing an excess of expenditure, amounting this year to 14,000
l
547
l
l
l
548
l
l
Sir H. Hardinge
said, that the hon. member had made his whole speech under a mistake. It was true there was an estimate of 14,531
l
l
l
549
Sir R. Heron
said, that all the mischief arose, not from the soldiers being billeted on public-houses, but from so large a standing army being kept up in time of peace, and collected in such great numbers in and about London, to overawe its population.
Mr. Hume
said, that an attempt had been made to fix a mistake on his hon. friend, without any good ground. The vote for this year was 136,351
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l
On this question the House divided; when there appeared, for the Amendment, 38; Against it,
95;
List of the Minority.
Allan, J. H.
Bright, H,
Althorp, viscount.
Denman, T.
Baring, A.
Evans, W.
Bernal, R.
Guise, sir B. W.
550
Haldimand, W.
Palmer, C. F.
Heathcote, G. J.
Philips, G. H. jun.
Heron, sir R.
Price, R.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Pym, F.
Honywood, W. P.
Portman, E. B.
James, W.
Rickford, W.
Jervoise, G. P.
Smith, J.
Johnstone, W.
Smith, R.
Kemp, T.
Sykes, D.
Lockhart J. J.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Maberly, J.
Webbe, E.
Maberly, W. L.
Wood, Matthew
Martin, J.
Wyvill, M.
Monck, J. B.
Newman, R. W.
TELLER.
Newport, sir J.
Hume, J.
On the resolution, "That 182,795
l
Mr. Hume
begged to have some explanation of a charge of 40,000
l
l
Sir H. Hardinge
said, he could not give a detailed answer to the hon. gentleman's question. As to the stores to which the vote related, it seemed most advisable and beneficial for the public service, that they should be furnished from the commissariat department.
Mr. Maberly
objected altogether to that branch of this department, which consisted in store-houses in London. The great depot for the army should be Woolwich. The store-houses in London were a very unnecessary expense. There would be a great saving by sending all the stores to Woolwich. There they might all be embarked at once on board ship, and a large army might be fitted out in a short time. The London establishments were absolutely useless, and were kept up, he believed, only to create influence. A heavy expense must necessarily be incurred, if stores that were to be sent abroad, and had to be procured at different parts of England, were sent first to London. They had no business to come to London at all, but ought to be sent direct to the port where they were to be shipped. If economy were at all desirable, he was sure these store-houses should be done away. By getting rid of this branch of the com-
551
Sir H. Hardinge
thought the hon. member was not correctly informed. It frequently happened, that great coats I were to be sent to one place, shoes to another, and hats to a third: and all such articles were necessarily sent to the place where the ship which was to take them on board was loading. Now, as this was in many cases the West or East India Docks, it would cost a great sum of money to employ lighters to bring these stores from Woolwich.
Mr. Maberly
said, that the Tower stores had supplied all the small stores for the army during war, and were now sufficient for the purpose. He was sure that nine-tenths of the store-houses were at present unoccupied, and were kept up only for the sake of patronage. If the House really wished to abate expense, they would find ample opportunity of doing it by inquiring into the Commissariat, Store, and Ordnance departments.
The several resolutions were agreed to.
USURY LAWS REPEAL BILL.]
On the order of the day, for going into a committee on this bill.
Sir R. Heron
put it to the learned Serjeant, whether he would bring forward his motion at that late hour, when the House was exhausted, when many members had been present nine hours, attending to the business of the House, and who wished to take part in the discussion. He trusted the learned Serjeant would not press the measure.
Mr. Serjeant Onslow
said, that if the hon. baronet had been in his place on Friday last, he could not have made this request. It was then expressly agreed, that the subject should come on this night. He should certainly not accede to the hon. baronet's request.
The question being put, "That the order of the day be now read," the House divided: Ayes 85. Noes 31. On the question being put," that the Speaker do now leave the chair,"
Mr. Robertson
rose to oppose the motion. He began by stating, that under the Roman republic, the rate of the interest of money declined as the wealth of the country increased, down to the time of Justinian, in whose code laws against usury were established, limiting different rates of interest to the different classes of the
552
553
l
l
554
555
Captain Maberly
observed, that in rising immediately after the hon. member who spoke last, it was not his intention to follow him throughout the very remote and barbarian retrospect which he had taken. In legislating under the present state of Public improvement, he should restrict Himself to the consideration,—were these
556
Mr. Alderman Heygate
observed, that although indisposed, he was most anxious to offer a few observations on the present question. It was said by the advocates for the repeal of the usury laws, as stated in the report of the committee, that at that time the alteration would produce no great effect. That was stated on the 30th of June, 1818; and its fallacy was esta-
557
558
559
560
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Mr. Wynn
said, that the hon. alderman who had just sat down had, in the course of his speech, stated, that nothing was so fluctuating as the value of money; now, it appeared to him, that this was a strange beginning to a speech, the object of which was, to continue laws to fix the rate of interest. He was as indisposed as any man to make alterations in the existing laws on account of mere theory, but here there was a great practical evil. One of the justifications set up for these laws was their high antiquity. That, no doubt, was a respectable title; but, let it be remembered, that they had their origin in times, when our ancestors made it a practice to meddle and interfere in all transactions of buying and selling every article of provision. At that time it was not deemed beneath their notice to regulate the price of cloth, corn, and even poultry, and the one law he thought just as wise as the other. He was by no means a friend to innovation; but although he could not become a convert to the scheme of decimal calculation, still he thought it prudent to make those wise alterations which were consistent with the enlightened spirit of legislation, which characterized the present age. He would not adhere to an an dent law merely because it was antient, unless he also found that it was wise; he could not, for instance, recognise the policy of continuing a law, which enacts that, if a man commit a crime, not himself alone, but his entire family should suffer a penalty. The one law was just as old as the other. He conceived that a man with money had as good a right to dispose of it in the
561
l
562
Mr. Calcraft
said, he was perfectly sensible of the disadvantages under which the House discussed this question at so late an hour of the night; and he confessed he was some what surprised that when a few nights back, five of his majesty's ministers had voted on this important question, they had not thought fit to favour the House with their presence this evening. It appeared to him, that it would have been much more satisfactory to this House, as well as to the country at large, if, when they meant to support it, they would make it a cabinet measure; for he felt persuaded that no subject would be brought forward during the present session, that affected more extensively and deeply the interests of the community at large. He confessed that he expressed his opinion on this question with great apprehension, because he differed always with regret, from his hon. friend near him (Mr. Baring), whose extensive knowledge and great practical information, gave to his opinions such weight on these questions. But, when he looked to the evidence of history, his opinions acquired additional strength. He there found that for the last three hundred years the country had prospered under the system of Usury Laws, and he found that at each successive reduction of interest our prosperity had increased more and more, according as it had been regulated by statute. All the great writers on this subject recognised the value of each successive reduction from Henry the eighth downwards till the time of Anne, when the interest was settled at five per cent.—And now he would come to consider the consequence' of the repeal of these laws, from which so much benefit had been expected by some gentlemen, but which he contended would be so detrimental. One of the very first effects of the repeal would be, to unsettle the minds of men, and shake all the securities of the country. All the lenders would immediately commence watching the variations of the money market, and the borrowers would be trembling for the bargains they had made, and would be in perpetual fear of the threats of the lenders. It was very true, as had been said, that engagements were made for a term of years; but was it probable that henceforward any capitalist would be so foolish as to lock up his money for a term of vears? His right
563
564
565
566
Mr. Huskisson
said, he had been happy to hear the worthy alderman address the House with so much energy, notwithstanding his indisposition, although he could by no means agree with him in the view which he had taken of the subject. The hon. gentleman who spoke last had called upon him to state in what capacity he supported this measure, and had said that it should be brought forward as a government measure. But, it would be very strange if the government were to take it out of the hands of a gentleman who
567
568
Sir R. Heron
maintained, that the proposition of the hon. and learned Serjeant tended to reverse the policy and morality of our ancestors, and those of almost every nation in every age. It had been denied, that there were any usury laws in Holland and Prussia. In Holland he understood they had been repealed five and twenty years ago: and the fact was, that the
569
Mr. T. Wilson
acknowledged, that his original opinions had been in favour of the repeal, but that the arguments which he had heard in the course of the present evening in opposition to it had very much staggered him. He thought, in the then state of the House, that it was by no means expedient to drive the question to a division.
Sir J. Sebright
expressed his perfect conviction that the law, as it now stood, was extremely injurious to the landed proprietor. As a landed proprietor, therefore, he expressed his thanks to his hon. and learned friend who had proposed its repeal. The fact was, that he had never heard but one good argument in favour of the usury laws, and that was from a friend of his, certainly no great political economist, who, in a discussion which he had had with him on the subject, exclaimed, "Why, every body knows that five per cent is the natural interest of money." But as, after all, this argument was not perfectly conclusive, he should certainly support the bill.
Mr. Baring
said, he was extremely unwilling to trespass on the patience of the House; but the question was one of such great importance, that he begged to be allowed to say a few words upon it. The opinion which he at present entertained upon it, was the opinion which he had entertained from the moment that he had been able to think at all; and he had not had the advantage enjoyed by the hon. member for London, of hearing any thing that
570
571
The question being put on the motion,
"That the Speaker do now leave the Chair, the House divided, Ayes 43. Noes 34. the House then resolved itself into the committee; after some verbal amendments hail been agreed to, the Chairman reported progress.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 1, 1824
BREACH OF PRIVILEGE—Mr. ABERCROMBY'S COMPLAINT OF THE LORD
Mr. Abercromby
rose, and addressed the House to the following effect:
572
573
574
575
576
577
578
579
580
581
582
583
584
Mr. Secretary Canning
said:—Sir, there is no man who heard the hon. and learned gentleman's speech—no member of the profession to which he belongs—no one of the friends by whom he is surrounded, who is ready to make more allowance than I am for the feelings which he has evinced, or to render a more sincere tribute of praise for the moderation and propriety with which he has expressed them. He has displayed an anxiety that is highly creditable to free himself from an imputation which, as far as my testimony goes, he is not subject to; for, without being enough of a professional man to be aware thoroughly of the importance of the distinction between what the hon. and learned gentleman stated the other night, and what he elsewhere was understood to have stated, I can most unequivocally declare, that in his argument that night, the impression on my mind was, that he did not go out of his way for the purpose of throwing imputations on the lord chancellor, or of making what has happened in the court of Chancery, matter of individual blame,—and not the result of a faulty system. Such, Sir, was the impression on my mind; and if my testimony had been required, I should have been as ready to state elsewhere, as I am to state here, that there was nothing uttered by the hon. and learned member on that occasion which went beyond the fair line of discussion, or which could justifiably furnish a ground of personal offence. Admitting this, Sir, I can feel also, that the hon. and learned gentleman, strong in the recollection of his purpose at the time, and of his mode of executing that purpose, could not have avoided feeling surprise and indignation at finding his speech stamped with terms of so gross a character as those which have been applied to it. But, Sir, in his statement to the House, the hon. and
585
586
587
Mr. Brougham
said—If the only parties, Sir, here this night were lord Eldon and my hon. and learned friend,—if the only objects were, the putting my hon. and learned friend in the right, and the putting the lord chancellor in the wrong, I should be satisfied that justice has been done to both parties, and that both objects have been gained; the first object by my hon. and learned friend's own speech; the second, by the admissions of the right hon. secretary, in his defence of his noble colleague—a defence, the candour of which was great, the fairness not little, and of which the moderation and the skill are equally deserving of praise. A defence indeed of the lord chancellor, it can hardly be called, it is an admission of the charge against the noble and learned lord, and an humble, he would not say submissive, and by no means injudicious speech in extenuation. But, Sir, besides my hon. and learned friend, besides the lord
588
589
castigatque auditque.
590
The Solicitor-General
said, he had read in a morning paper what purported to have been a report of the speech of his hon. and learned friend in that House on Tuesday last. He was convinced that no such speech fell from his hon. and learned friend, but that what he had actually said was quite different from what in that paper was reported to have been said by him. The report made his hon. and learned friend say that the noble and learned lord had evaded the fair construction of the vice-chancellor's Bill, and by doing so, had brought expense upon the parties, and disparagement on a brother judge. He would ask any hon. gentleman who heard him, if such a charge were made against him if, in whatever capacity he might stand, so serious and so shameful a breach of his duty were charged upon him—would not his feelings be irritated? If his hon. and learned friend would attend to what was stated in the
591
592
ad libitum
593
Mr. Scarlett
said, that as a member of that House, whose privileges were attacked, and of that profession whose rights were assailed, he hoped he might be permitted to say a few words. He concurred in the speech of his hon. and learned friend who had just sat down—a speech which did the highest honour to his hon. and learned friend, and to every sentence
594
595
596
597
The Attorney General
rose to offer a few observations to the House on the present occasion. The impression on his mind, with respect to the attack which the noble and learned lord was accused of making, was, that the noble and learned lord had no intention of making any such attack, but was desirous merely of defending himself from an attack which had been made against himself. He begged the House to consider the situation in which the lord chancellor, or any other individual, was placed, who might be made the object of certain charges which should be circulated throughout the country without contradiction. The debate, in the course of which the speech of his hon. and learned friend had been made, took place on Tuesday; the newspaper in which a report of it was inserted was published on Wednesday. In that report—which he admitted was an incorrect one—the lord chancellor was charged with very extensive malversation in his office, with having perverted the practice of the court of Chancery; and with having evaded the law itself for a most degrading purpose—namely, that of elevating himself, at the expense of another judge who was sitting in the same court. Could any thing, he asked, be more galling to the mind of the noble individual against whom it was made than such a charge? That charge, thus supposed to have been made within the walls of parliament, had been circulated throughout the kingdom for several days, when the expressions of the lord chancellor, now alluded to, had been used. But, would it not be fair to inquire whether his hon. and learned friend had in the interval, taken any steps to correct this mis-statement? Did he come down to the House and call for its censure upon the individual who had circulated a libel, as untrue and as unfair as it regarded him-
598
599
Mr. Scarlett
begged to explain. He had not said that, it was his opinion that the bar was degraded; he did not think so; but this he would assert, since he had been publicly called upon, that the honour, the independence, and the enlightened state of the bar was attributable to the bar itself, and to the vindication of its own character.
Mr. Tierney
said:—I had originally no intention of obtruding myself upon the House, but after what has passed, the question seems to me of such immense importance to our most vital rights and privileges, that I should think I disgraced myself if I gave a silent vote, and if I did not state why I think the mode recommended by my hon. and learned friend ought to be supported by every man who hears me. Let us look a little at the real condition of the question. My hon. and learned friend comes down to the House, and makes a complaint
600
601
602
603
604
605
Mr. Secretary Peel
observed, that he was by no means inclined to pursue the course just recommended, namely, for the House to take the first step, and then to meet the difficulties that must inevitably present themselves. It was his opinion, that it would be infinitely better calmly to weigh those difficulties before the House was involved in them. There were here two questions that seemed to have been confounded; first, had there been any breach of the privileges of the House, or such a breach as it was expedient to notice? secondly, had there been any attempt to threaten any member of the learned profession, in order to deter him from the discharge of his duty? The latter appeared to him infinitely the more important; for a breach of privilege was of far less consequence than it would be to consider whether there had been an attack upon the independence of a member of parliament. As to the first question, it was certainly very difficult for any individual to say in how many instances in the day the privileges of the House were infringed. Members themselves were guilty of constant breaches; and within the last two years constant and irregular references had been made to the proceedings in the House of Lords. The grosser offence was avoided by talking of "another place," and of speeches delivered there; but this was a mere evasion; and perhaps it would be much better to make direct allusions, and at once to answer remarks made by the peers, than to resort to this apparently unworthy expedient. It was most material to this discussion, to remember, that the origin of it was a direct breach of privilege, at which the House connived—namely, the publication of its proceedings. It had the power to enforce its orders; but he admitted that it was much wiser to continue the permission, than to put a stop to the practice. There was a balance of evils; but the advantage predominated in favour of the publication of debates. Yet great inconveniences sometimes arose, and the present was a striking and pregnant proof of the mischief. The hon. and learned member had made a speech reflecting on an individual—it was printed next morning, and it was wafted,
606
607
608
609
togati,
610
Mr. Tierney
observed, in explanation, that he had not stated that there was any difficulty as to the course which the House ought now to pursue. On the contrary, there could be no doubt of the propriety of acceding to the present mo-
611
Sir James Mackintosh
said:—I can assure the House, that I shall, for my own sake, trespass for as short a time as possible upon their attention, for I rise at no small personal inconvenience; but I cannot refrain from making a few observations on a question, which is undoubtedly one of vital importance, convinced as I feel that the rejection of the present motion would be one of the most fatal blows that was ever struck at the privileges of the House of Commons, and through them, at the constitution of parliament. The right hon. Secretary, after the manner of a practised logician has raised inferences from the motion which it by no means warrants, when fairly and rationally considered. The motion now under Consideration is, in plain terms, whether we shall receive the accessary evidence to establish the alleged fact of a breach of the privileges of this House, aggravated by a false charge against one of its members. I do not charge the chancellor with any intention of intimidating the gentlemen of the bar, or of deterring any individual member of the profession from the performance of his duty, by holding out threats delivered from the judgment-seat, which may have a tendency to influence the conduct of such members of the profession as have likewise seats in this House. Undoubtedly, such an intention would be a great aggravation of the breach of the privileges of this House; and I agree with my hon. and learned friend in thinking, that the House is bound to inquire, in justice to the character of that profession, which would be tarnished and degraded by the rejection of this motion, f the Ho use refuse to inquire into the charge now made against the Lord Chancellor of England, they will cast a stigma upon that profession of which I had once the honour to be an humble member, and the members of which ought for ever to be excluded from this House, if they are to be placed in a state of miserable and precarious dependence on the judges of the courts. There is a charge of further aggravation of the breach of the privileges of this House, which is one of the greatest magnitude. What was the nature of the debate which gave rise to the present discussion? An inquiry into the
612
613
614
615
616
Mr. Wynn
said, that whatever difference of opinion might prevail in their view of the result of this motion, there was one point upon which they were all agreed; namely, that nothing had been said by the hon. and learned gentleman to justify the comments which had been made on his speech; but he nevertheless felt that if what was said did not justify the language which it had afterwards called forth, the misrepresentation of it certainly went some way in excusing those comments. He had long attended to questions of breach of privilege in that House, and he could not class the present case among that number. He was aware that he should be exposed to the imputation of having diminished his zeal for the maintenance of their rights and privileges;
617
618
corpus delicti
619
Mr. Scarlett
, in explanation, observed that what he had said was, that it would have been natural to expect that the lord chancellor should have sent, in a private and confidential manner, for the hon. and learned member, and have asked him, whether he could have uttered the words attributed to him, as they seemed most extraordinary in the mouth of any one acquainted with the practice of the Chancery court.
Mr. W. Williams
confessed that, generally speaking, he was not very friendly to the vigorous exertion and enforcement of the privileges of that House; and, during the time he had had the honour of a seat in parliament, he had witnessed several instances in which he thought they had been so exerted, under circumstances of considerable injustice to individuals. But in this case, the question was, not so much whether the House would enforce its privileges, as whether, when a grave charge was made against one of its members by an individual holding the highest judicial situation in the country, the
620
621
Mr. Abercromby
, in reply, said, he should detain the House but for a very few moments. It was, indeed, unnecessary for him to do so, after the candid manner in which hon. members opposite had added their suffrages to those of his hon. friends, in expressing their conviction, that nothing which had been said by him, in the discharge of his duty as a member of that House, ought to have exposed him to the animadversions which had been made on his conduct. The paper in question undoubtedly did not contain a true report of what had been said by him in his place. With respect to the course which the House ought now to pursue, it would be for the House itself to determine. He should only beg leave to state the grounds on which he had acted in bringing forward, with as much impartiality as possible, a question in which he felt so deep a personal interest. It was obvious in the first place, that he might have taken a course which was not without precedent, namely, that of treating this as a transaction in which he himself was alone interested. But he felt that it would be impossible to bring the case before the House without considering it as one in which its own privileges were involved; and in taking this view of
622
The House divided: Ayes 102. Noes 151. Majority against Mr. Abercromby's motion 49.
List of the Minority.
Allen, J. H.
James, W.
Althorp, visc.
Ingilby, sir W.
Acland, sir T.
Kennedy, T, F.
Baring, Alex.
Lamb, hon. G.
Baring, sir T.
Leycester, R.
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Lushington, S.
Benyon, B.
Leader, W.
Bernal, R.
Maberly, J.
Birch, J.
Mackintosh, sir J.
Brougham, H.
Martin, J.
Browne Dom.
Milton, visc.
Bright, H.
Moore, P.
Calcraft, J.
Newman, R. W.
Calcraft, J. H.
Newport, sir J.
Campbell, hon. G. P.
Ord, W.
Calvert, C.
Palmer, C.
Cavendish, C.
Philips, G. H.
Cavendish, H.
Price, R.
Chaloner, R.
Poyntz, W. S.
Clifton, visc.
Portman, E. B.
Coffin, sir I.
Ramsden, J. C.
Creevey, T.
Rice, T. S.
Crompton, S.
Robarts, A.
Curwen, J. C.
Robarts, G.
Davies, T. H.
Robinson, sir G.
Denison, W.
Rowley, sir W.
Denison, E.
Rumbold, C. E.
Denman, T.
Rickford, W.
Davenport, D.
Scarlett, J.
Ellis, E.
Sefton, earl of
Evans, W.
Stanley, lord
Ellis, hon. G. A.
Stanley, hon. E.
Farrand, R.
Staunton, sir G.
Grattan, J.
Smith, R.
Grenfell, P.
Smith, W.
Guise, sir B. W.
Smith, J.
Gordon, R.
Smith, G.
Haldimand, W.
Smith, S.
Hamilton, lord A.
Smith, A.
Heathcote, J. G.
Stuart, lord J.
Heron, sir R.
Sykes, D
Honywood, W. P.
Tremayne, S. H.
Hume, J.
Taylor, C.
Hurst, R.
Tennyson, C.
Hutchinson, hon.C. H.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
623
Tulk, C. A.
Wilson, T. C.
Warre, J. A.
Wood, M.
Webb, E.
Wyvill, M.
Western, C. C.
Wrottesley, sir John
Whitbread, S. C.
Wilberforce, W.
Whitbread, W.
TELLERS.
Williams, W.
Abercromby, hon. J.
Wilson, sir R.
Duncannon, vics.
PUBLIC BUILDINGS IN WESTMINSTER—PALACES, &c.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Herries moved "That 40,000
l.
Mr. Bankes
said, that in this vote he observed that some of the repairs now going on in the neighbourhood of the House were included. He apprehended that the works at the House of Lords with the new avenue, were also included in it. Now he could not help taking notice, on this occasion, of the very unsatisfactory manner in which these alterations had been performed. He wished, before the House came to the vote, to have an opportunity of knowing what further was to be done in respect of them; and particularly how far the work of destruction of those ancient and venerable monuments of art, that once surrounded the House of Lords and the parts adjacent, was intended to be carried? He was very sure that had the House, last session, been aware of the mischief that was to be done, they never would have sanctioned the proceedings of those, who had demolished so much of the remains of the most interesting edifices. He himself had been a witness of the demolition of a part of that old palace at Westminster, near the House of Lords, anciently called the Prince's chamber,—a fabric, the side of which was now converted into something that he would not mention; but that was not excuseable upon the ground even of being necessary; yet these were ruins, the interest of which was connected with a period of some antiquity and of much celebrity. The palace was of a time not later, he was sure, than the reign of Edward III. It was quite unnecessary to destroy this very curious relic; because, without interfering with any design that had been in unison with it, it would have been perfectly easy to underprop what remained of the building. He was also desirous to know what had been the expenses already incurred in that very strange and anomalous building which
624
Mr. Grey Bennet
said, he would support the motion of the member for Corfe Castle. For his own part, he wished the hon. Secretary would inform the committee who the architect was, in order that the public might know whom to avoid. While he wished that they might not again run the risk of wasting so much money, and of decidedly violating every thing like taste, he was equally anxious to know who they were, who had overlooked the plans for these alterations, in order that such supervisors might not be put again in requisition.
Mr. Herries
said, that there was an account of expenses at present incurred in these public works, amounting to 10,800
l.,
Mr. G. Bennet
said, he was still uninformed who was the architect, and who the members of the committee of taste, at the time when his plans were furnished.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
confessed that he was not all surprised that this subject should have attracted the attention of the House. He did think it necessary that some alteration should take place in the system upon which these works were carried on. The answer to the hon. member for Shrewsbury must be what his hon. friend anticipated in asking the question; the architect was Mr. Soane; the authority under which these alterations had taken place, was the Board of Works; and he thought it very desirable that henceforward the public respon-
625
Mr. Tennyson
observed, that the buildings of the old palace at Westminster were almost sacred in this country, as the birth-place or abode of our early kings and princes. The hon. member for Corfe Castle had well remarked, that they seemed all now devoted to destruction. It might be necessary to remove some part to make room for the new buildings carrying on in the vicinity; but what had become of the painted chamber, about the beauty of which so much had been said? What was the character of the building raised in its place? Could any thing be more incongruous, or more inconsistent? He understood it was also the intention to remove the House of Lords; which, by the by, was about the very finest room in London. But in what taste was it proposed to rebuild the House?—In the Gothic; or the Grecian? The hon. gentleman animadverted in strong terms on the incongruous absurdities that were manifested in the modern additions of mongrel architecture evinced in the new entrance to the House of Lords, and expressed his obligations to the hon. member for Corfe Castle for bringing forward the matter.
Mr. Hume
spoke of the condition of the Record-office behind Abingdon-street. Having occasion last session to consult some records, he found it impossible to decipher them, such was their damp and neglected state. It was true the building was fire-proof; but the access to it was singularly inconvenient. Himself and his friends were obliged to go, in single file, up a narrow staircase, between walls that were seven feet in thickness, but little calculated for the
626
Mr. Croker
agreed with his right hon. friend, that there ought to be a responsible person in that House, answerable as well for the plan as for the execution of all great national works. It was not merely the expense which must attend this or any other work, nor its inapplicability to the purpose for which it was erected, but also the disgrace which it might reflect on the national taste, that ought to be considered by parliament. Taking this view of the subject, he had always thought that the discretion would be best lodged with the Treasury; and he was glad to find that his right hon. friend was of the same opinion. He was certain that, when they saw there was a real control over the erection of public works; when they saw that a system of good taste was adhered to; the people would no longer allow themselves to be charged, as had hitherto been the case, with niggardliness in granting sufficient funds for the construction of necessary public buildings, because they would not wish to sanction the formation of a structure that would only be a monument of their own disgrace. He had seen it stated in the newspapers, that that fine ancient edifice, the painted chamber, was about to be taken down, that building which five hundred years ago was denominated
perillustre
gew-gaws
627
Mr. Hume
inquired whether, in the estimate now before the committee, the expenditure for the repairs of St. James's Palace was included?
Mr. Herries
answered, that the expenditure referred to was not included in that estimate.
Sir J. Mackintosh
said, that the system of undistinguishing destruction with respect to ancient royal palaces, and other venerable buildings, which had been so prevalent of late years was not in unison with the feelings and sentiments of English men, and had certainly been carried a great deal too far. The most venerable remains of antiquity had been removed with very little regret or consideration. The palace of Westminster was of very great antiquity, and ought to be held in peculiar reverence, in consequence of the scenes which, in former times, had taken place in it. It was there that the constitution of this country was finally settled. It ought, not therefore, to be touched. The pulling down of buildings which had been the scene of such important and interesting transactions was almost sacrilegious. It tended to destroy national feeling and moral sentiment. It was calculated to weaken that due veneration which ought to be cherished for what had been so well done by our ancestors, and which had been left by them as a sacred legacy to their posterity. For upwards of three hundred years the conferences between the two Houses of Parliament had been held in the painted chamber; and he should greatly lament if any profane hand were suffered to pull it down. He could not help adverting to the new building which now showed its front so impudently in the face of Westminster Abbey. That building was called Grecian—for no other reason that he could conceive, but that it was not English, it was not national so it had been denominated Grecian. He only regretted, if a necessity existed for the erection of the new courts, that it should have been carried to the north entrance of Westminster-hall, which had been so well restored, but which was now disgraced and deformed by the contiguity of the new structure. As an hon. friend observed to him, that building, if it were Grecian, must be of the Bœotian order.
628
Mr. Herries
observed, that the vote now before the committee had nothing to do with the royal palace of St. James's, a charge on the civil list of 40,000
l.
Mr. Hume
thought that, looking at the state of those buildings, it would be better to pull down the whole of them and erect a new palace. We ought to have a palace suitable to the dignity of the monarch of this country, instead of suffering ourselves to be laughed at by every state in Europe, for not having a building fit for a royal residence. The most petty sovereigns abroad were possessed of much finer buildings in every respect, than those in which our sovereign was lodged. It would be much better to take down St. James's palace, than to squander away large sums in tasteless repairs.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that as to the palace of St. James, he could not see that the repairs ought to occasion any reproach for want of taste, since the national character of that building had been entirely preserved; and he thought that what had been done would be found of material advantage to the public, so far as they were concerned; and doubtless they were concerned in having a proper access to the royal par lace. He agreed in what had been said on the subject of royal palaces in town. He admitted that there was not a royal residence in London at all commensurate with the wealth of the country, or the dignity of the monarch. The hon. gentler man must, however, be aware, that to build a palace on a commensurate scale of magnificence, would create a very great expense. Besides, it should be recollected, that the alterations at St. James's had been commenced under circumstances extremely different from those which prevailed at the present moment. He apprehended, that if, two years ago, a million, or a million and a half, had been demanded for the erection of a palace, such a proposition would not have been received with any great degree of approbation.
Colonel Davies
did not think the alteration was a good one. St. James's palace looked more like an almshouse than a kingly residence, and was a disgrace to the country.
Sir T. Baring
said, they had a great number of palaces, many of which might
629
l,
l.
Mr. Bright
admitted that they had no palace in England at all to be compared with those which were to be found in other countries. Still, be was decidedly opposed to the expenditure of a large sum of money on the erection of a new palace.
Mr. James
said, they ought not to think of building a new palace until the war-taxes were taken off.
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, he would put it to any individual in that House, or out of it, whether there was any person in his majesty's dominions; so ill lodged, considering his rank as his majesty was? A large sum of money, in different small repairs and embellishments, had been hitherto thrown away. But a good opportunity now occurred to put an end to that error. Carlton-house was in such a state, that it could not long go on, unless it received substantial repairs. The foundation was not good, and the walls were in a bad state. Both required substantial repairs. It would require a considerable time and a large sum of money, to erect a palace: but he called on the House to place his majesty in a suitable situation, which would render it unnecessary to build a palace at this moment. Those trifling repairs in the different palaces should be stopped, and means should be taken to provide for the erection of a grand national palace at once. It would be true economy in the end.
Lord Milton
said, he was sorry to see gentlemen vying with each other in recommending the erection of buildings
630
Mr. Grey Bennet
thought this sum of 40,000
l.
Sir C. Long
said, it was absolutely necessary to grant money for this purpose, if they wished to keep the buildings in existence. As to the question of taste, which had been referred to, the committee to whom allusion had been made, had nothing to do with the charge that had been insinuated against them. Of that committee, his hon. friend (Mr. Bankes), as well as himself was a member; and his hon. friend must know, that their business was limited to the deciding on drawings for national monuments. With regard to the new courts (he would not call them Grecian, for certainly their architecture was not Grecian; nor any thing else that he knew of), the only reason he could perceive for building them by the door of Westminster-hall was, that there had been buildings there before.
CALEDONIAN CANAL.]
On the resolution, "That 13,000
l.
Sir M. W. Ridley
hoped the right hon. gentleman would repeat the assurance he gave them last session, that this was the only vote that would be called for on
631
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had stated last year that he should not feel justified in asking for the sum he then called for, unless he could refer to the limit of expense which was likely to be necessary for the completion of this work. When he was preparing the estimates at that period, he had communicated with the commissioners and the letter which he received in consequence had answered the question he had put. There was only one object to be attained; namely; that of making the depth of the canal uniformly 20 feet throughout its whole extent; and the sum now called for would accomplish that object. All, therefore, that was likely to be required for the work itself, was the vote now before the committee. There was, however, another point which related to the outstanding claims of individuals through whose lands the canal had been cut. It would be an extreme injustice to many parties, if claims of that nature were not considered: it would be most unfair to take their lands, and afford them no remuneration.
Mr. J. Smith
hoped that this was the last vote that would be demanded on account of this canal. Would the right hon. gentleman give them a direct assurance that this was clearly, substantively, and
bona fide
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had no doubt that the view of the commissioners was correct and that the present vote would be sufficient to complete the work.
Mr. Hume
wished to know whether the income arising from the canal was ever likely to support the current charge?.
Mr. Herries
said, that that question had been asked officially, but the answer bad not yet arrived. The result of his private inquiries had certainly not been very satisfactory.
Mr. Warre
was glad to have at last a confession from the secretary of the
632
Mr. T. Wilson
thought the vote should be suspended until a return could be obtained of all further claims that were likely to accrue from the canal; including claims on the score of compensation.
Mr. W. Smith
, though he found no fault with the original devising of the canal, believed nevertheless that it would never pay its current charges and the interest of the money spent upon it. The present vote was a trifle after so much expense; yet he was inclined to wait for the return, on account of the claims to compensation. If proper arrangements had been made in the commencement of the undertaking, there was scarcely a proprietor who would not have been glad to have had the canal pass through his lands without claiming, or thinking of claiming any compensation at all.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that without the grant now asked for, the canal would be utterly useless. In its present state, a vessel that went in at one end, could not, from the want of depth, get out at the other. The compensation claims could not be so settled as to become the subject of an immediate return, as any demand which seemed unreasonable would have to be assessed by a jury.
Mr. Hume
had understood, ten years ago, that the greater part of the landowners concerned had acquiesced in the canal cutting without compensation. He was afraid that some claims had been set up from the facility with which others had been allowed. His opinion was, that as these were speculating times, the chancellor of the Exchequer should get some company to take the thing off his hands.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that if the hon., gentleman would bid, he should be happy to receive his tender.
The vote was then agreed to.
NEW COURTS OF JUSTICE IN WESTMINSTER HALL.]
On the resolution, "That 30,000
l.
Mr. Bankes
objected to the abominable taste in which new buildings of a different order of architecture had been grafted on to the old Gothic, and which had been
633
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
regretted quite as much as his hon. friend, the existence of the unpleasant excrescence of which he had so deservedly complained. He had seen it for the first time in the course of last year, when the foundations were already laid, and it was unfortunately too late to put a stop to the building. The only amends which could now be made was to take care that nothing else should be erected so unsightly as the project to which his hon. friend adverted. As to an estimate of the expense for completing the building, the House might, if it thought necessary, have a more detailed statement laid before it; but he could have no objection to say that 10,000
l.
Mr. W. Williams
fully concurred in every statement which had fallen from his hon. friend, except one. He did not think it was necessary that the building should go on. He would recommend, instead of granting 40,000
l.
l.
Mr. Calvert
said, that the materials might, almost all of them, be sold, or worked up again; so that the loss would be only the price of the labour.
Mr. Grey Bennet
had understood, that there were extensive projects in agitation
634
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that when he alluded on a former night to Windsor Castle, he had purposely not entered into details; but he had no difficulty in stating, that when he proposed to the House to vote the sum, he should be ready to give an account of the alterations intended. On a former occasion he had mentioned, that it was his intention to place the money in the hands of commissioners appointed for the purpose; and he had no doubt that those gentlemen would fully consider the subject to which the hon. gentleman had adverted. Nothing he was sure, would be done to destroy the general character of the building; but such conveniences would be added, and such alterations made as were necessary.
Mr. Williams
said, that he should move that the present vote be postponed.
Mr. Bernal
deprecated this mode of proceeding. His hon. friend seemed to forget, that the party most interested in this question was the public. At present great inconvenience was experienced for want of courts, and if the motion for postponement were carried, suitors would suffer considerably.
Mr. W. Williams
said, he would rather the public should suffer some temporary, inconvenience, than that such buildings should remain as a monument to posterity of the bad taste of the present age.
The Solicitor General
said, he approved of the buildings as little as any man could do; but when the question was, whether they were to go on or the public be exposed to very great inconvenience, he could have no hesitation in voting for the resolution.
Mr. Baring
hoped that a better system would be followed with regard to the New Post-office, and complained that there was nobody connected with the government who was responsible for these ridiculous buildings.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said that as to the Post-office, the House would be aware, that the committee to which the subject had been referred had thought it right to recommend premiums for the best architectural design. This had been done, and as it could not be ex-
635
The resolution was agreed to.
BRITISH MUSEUM.]
On the resolution, That 40,000
l.
Mr. R. Colborne
took that opportunity of bearing testimony to the liberality of sir George Beaumont, who had made a noble gift of a beautiful collection of pictures to the Museum. The collection, though small, contained some of the finest specimens of the ancient masters, and he trusted it would form the foundation of an extensive and valuable gallery. To bequeath such a collection to the nation would have been liberal in any man; but it was doubly liberal to give it during his life time. He was confident the example would have both admirers and imitators.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he had not alluded to this subject the other night, out of delicacy to the individual alluded to. He was fully sensible of the extraordinary liberality of that individual, and he trusted that it would lay the foundation of a splendid national collection.
Sir T. Baring
recommended, that instead of the British Museum, Somerset-house should be completed, and made the receptacle for a national gallery of pictures.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that sir George Beaumont had given his collection to the British Museum, and that it could not therefore be sent to any other building. There it would be in conjunction with those other collections
636
Sir T. Baring
said, that sir George Beaumont had not given his pictures to a building; but to the nation. At present, the arts were in a state of unrivalled excellence in this country, and it must be desirable that they should have a suitable abode; which he thought could only be found in Somerset-house. He trusted government would complete that noble structure.
Sir C. Long
explained, that sir George Beaumont's gift had been to the British Museum, and was intended to remain in conjunction with other works of art deposited there.
Mr. W. Smith
thought, that the eastern wing of Somerset-house ought to be completed. For thirty years that part of this building had remained in a half-finished state; as if the nation had not had a single farthing to bestow on purposes of national ornament.
Mr. Croker
thought the eastern wing of Somerset-house would make, if completed, a noble picture gallery, and would be capable of receiving all the works of art we were ever likely to possess. He would suggest, that the east wing of Somerset-house would form an excellent place for the exhibition, which at present was at the very top of the house. The apartments were not large enough, and some pictures were obliged to be hung up in unfavourable places. He should therefore be very well pleased to see the recommendation of the hon. baronet carried into effect, and the east wing of Somerset house completed and appropriated to the exhibition. The apartments at present appropriated to it might be given to the Royal Society for their library, as they had a great number of books lying in cases.
The resolution was agreed to.
PENITENTIARY HOUSE AT MILBANK.]
On the resolution "That 23,000
l.
Mr. Gordon
wished to know from his majesty's government, what was intended to be done with this establishment. It was now unoccupied, and had been so
637
Mr. Peel
said, that the policy of having commenced that building had been often discussed, so that it was needless now to discuss it. It was from motives of humanity, that the prisoners had been removed from it in the course of last year. As to what might hereafter become of it, he should not take upon himself the responsibility of sending back the prisoners without the fullest inquiry. In consequence of a conversation with an hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Bennet), whose intention it was, to move for the re-appointment of the committee of last year, he thought it unnecessary to say more upon the subject now, than to assure the House, that when that committee should he appointed, the whole question would be investigated.
Mr. Gordon
said, he did not mean to find fault with the removal of the prisoners. He was sure it proceeded from motives of humanity, but he thought they should not now be called upon to defray the annual expenditure when the institution was empty.
Mr. Peel
said, that although the penitentiary was empty at present, the prisoners had been removed to the Hulks, and this vote went to provide for their maintenance. In addition to this, some alterations were rendered necessary, which necessarily increased the expenditure.
Mr. Holford
observed, that it had been necessary to remove the officers of the institution, as well as the prisoners, and that also had added to the expense.
Mr. Hume
objected to the great expense of the officers, which was no less than 6,000
l.
l.
Sir M. W. Ridley
wished to know whether there was any objection to lay before the House the report of the committee of medical men who investigated the disease which was prevalent some time back at the Penitentiary? He was the more anxious for the production of that report, because he was inclined to think it would disclose a circumstance not generally known, namely, that diarrhœa prevailed there for a much longer period than was generally supposed.
Mr. Peel
said, that if the report could throw any useful light on the subject, he
638
The resolution was agreed to.
On the resolution, "That 16,520
l.
Colonel Davies
objected generally to this vote. In the first place, admitting the justice of a part of the demand, it was much too large; but he could not see upon what plea of justice, or of common sense, we should be called upon now to grant salaries to men for sacrifices which had been made, not for us, but for the interests of their lawful sovereign. He thought it exceedingly hard that now, after the restoration of the Bourbons, England should be saddled with the burthen of paying Frenchmen for supposed, services, which, if they were ever performed, were done for the purpose of restoring the French monarch to the throne. This vote, to say the least of it, was extremely questionable. With respect to the St. Domingo sufferers, they perhaps had some claim; but, after the reduction, which he meant to propose, a very liberal allowance would still remain for them. He should, therefore propose, "That instead of 16,520
l.,
l.
Mr. Hume
seconded the proposition. He had hoped, that this year a considerable reduction would have been made instead of which he found an increase. It appeared to him, that on the restoration of Louis 18th to his throne, it was the duty of ministers to have stipulated that he should have provided for his adherents; and he still hoped, that the application might not be made in vain. However, of this he was quite sure, that the only way for the House to make the government exert themselves in the matter, would be to refuse the grant.
Mr. Herries
said, that the increase, arose from a transfer of a balance of last year's account, which made an apparent
639
l.
Mr. Gordon
concurred in the opposition to this vote, and thought his hon. friend had put the subject on its proper footing. Let parliament refuse the grant, and government would soon do away with it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that at the time of the peace, the government had felt it its duty to see how far a beneficial arrangement could be made. The negotiation set on foot with the French government at that time had this effect, that all persons who were French emigrants merely were to be taken off the list; and accordingly they are now actually supported by the French king. But the case of the others was widely different. Their claim was founded upon services rendered to us in the war against France, not as subjects of Louis; but they were services of a confidential nature, which actually had enabled us to carry on the war against the enemy; and, having enjoyed the benefit of these services, it would be hard if we compelled the French government to take upon themselves the burthen of compensation. It was true, that Toulon was taken in the name of the French king, and the vessels were surrendered to us under the name Of France We had had the benefit of them, and it would be too much now to call upon the French king to make good the expense.
Colonel Davies
said, that these vessels were taken to prevent them from falling into the hands of the republicans. Instead of a hardship, he thought it would not be going too far to call upon Louis to make some compensation for the blood and. treasure we had lavished in effecting his restoration. He thought these people had no more claim upon us than upon the emperor of China, and was quite satisfied that many of them were receiving pensions from the French government.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it was impossible that that could be the case, because before they received their pensions in this country, they were obliged to sign a declaration, stating, that they received no pension or allowance from the French government, that they were not in the service or employment of any foreign power, and that they had no other means of subsistence besides their pension.
Colonel Dawes
said, he had no wish to
640
The House divided: For the Amendment, 21. Against it, 49. The resolution was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 2, 1824
HEARING OF APPEALS.]
Lord King
said, he wished to call their lordships' attention to a subject which appeared to him to be of great importance. He found that his attendance was required in that House for hearing appeal causes at the bar. Now, he wished to learn, from such of their lordships as were better acquainted with the subject than he could pretend to be, whether he was, in consequence of this order, which required him to hear causes, also bound to vote on them? If he must vote, he was also desirous of knowing whether, in the case of his happening to withdraw himself before the hearing of a cause should be concluded, he would still be obliged to give his vote upon it? If these inquiries should be answered in the affirmative, he would then be glad to be informed, how he should act on a cause which was to come on, he believed, on Monday next. The cause to which he alluded was intituled "Connolly and wife," and had been heard before. For his part, however, he knew nothing of it; and he must therefore beg for instruction from their lordships how he was to vote. He had no idea whatever of the case, and was most anxious to do no injustice either to Connolly or his wife. But, would none of their lordships tell him what he was to do? Was he to take a hint from some one of the big wigs which their lordships occasionally saw rising a few inches above the bar? Or was he to be directed by that equilateral triangular hat which lay there? [looking towards the woolsack.] Or might he vote, as was done in some cases, without hearing any thing on the subject, by proxy? Their lordships had, in their wisdom determined, that each peer was to hear only fractions of causes; but, how was this to be reconciled with the mode of voting by wholesale? Now, if vote he must on the above case, he hoped their lordships would put him in possession of the means of voting rightly. He should doubtless be furnished with
641
STATE OF IRELAND.]
The Earl of Darnley
said, he had to apologize to their lordships for the change he had thought it necessary to make, in his motion for sum-
642
643
The Earl of Liverpool
assured their lordships, that he wished not on the present occasion to say one word as to the general question. Neither did he rise to oppose the motion, to which he had no objection; but he wished to say a few words on two subjects, which had been adverted to by the noble earl. The first was relative to that sum of money which had been called a "God-send," and which,
644
645
Lord King
was aware that there was no want of grants of the public money. There were Irish jobs, Scotch jobs, and Church jobs in abundance, but the most enormous job of all was the 100,000
l.
The motions were agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 2, 1824
IRISH MINING COMPANY.]
Sir H. Parnell
said, he had a petition to present from an association in Ireland, denominated the Hibernian Mining Society, praying the House to take no measures that may impede their efforts in the working of the mines in Ireland. It was gratifying to observe, that the shares in this undertaking had been purchased up so rapidly, and that individuals were found who were ready to embark their capital in the speculation. But, at the same time, it was worth considering whether it would be expedient for parliament to invest them with the powers of a joint stock company. Experience had proved, that the powers conferred upon public companies had generally led to negligence in the conduct of their business.
Sir J. Newport
said, if there was any country; in the world which, more than another, required encouragement as to the investing of capital, it was Ireland; and when an undertaking was set on foot to extract from the earth the treasures which he believed Ireland possessed, he hoped the House would not be backward in granting, not a monopoly, for to monopolies he was opposed, but all the assistance which they could bestow with safety and justice; and that they would look with a favourable eye upon the disposition to lay out in Ireland that capital which was so much called for.
FISHERIES OF SCOTLAND.]
Mr. Hume
presented a petition from the merchants, bankers, and other inhabitants of Arbroath. They complained that the salmon fisheries of Scotland had been much impeded by a recent interpretation which had been put upon the laws, which prohibited the use of a certain kind of nets, by means of which great quantities of salmon used to be caught. The consequence of this was, that a monopoly was now thrown into a few hands. The petitioners stated, that they understood a bill was about to be brought into parliament which would have an injurious effect upon
646
COMMITMENTS BY MAGISTRATES.]
Mr. Hume
said, he had some nights back presented a petition to the House from an individual, complaining of the conduct of a police magistrate, who had sentenced him to prison without sufficient evidence. He had then stated, that it was his intention to submit a motion to the House on the subject, the result of which, he expected, would explain the whole conduct of the magistrates of the metropolis and its neighbourhood. He had communicated to the Secretary of State for the home department his intention of moving for certain documents, and the right hon. gentleman had said he had no objection. He should therefore move, "That there be laid before the House, a return of the number of persons committed to Newgate or any other prison in London, Middlesex, and Surrey, from the several police offices, by the several magistrates of the city of London, and of the counties of Middlesex, and Surrey, in the years 1821,1822, and 1823; stating the number of persons committed from each office, and the number committed to each prison; the number of those committed against whom bills were found by the grand jury, the number convicted, and the number acquitted; distinguishing the number of those discharged, on verdict of not guilty, from those discharged from the non-appearance of witnesses or prosecutors; and also the number of commitments of those so convicted, acquitted, and discharged respectively.
Mr. Sumner
asked, whether the motion extended to the county magistrates of Middlesex and Surrey, or was confined to the police magistrates?
Mr. Hume
said, that his return would extend to the county magistrates?
Mr. Sumner
said, if the motion had been confined to the magistrates of London, he should have no objection to it; but he was decidedly opposed to the practice of bringing before the public on all occasions the names of magistrates. The office was attended with great trouble and inconvenience, and he was persuaded
647
Lord Althorp
said, he was never more surprised in his life than at the statement of the hon. gentleman. He was himself a county magistrate, and he should be ashamed if he objected to his name being produced upon any occasion, and subjected to the fullest inquiry. He was sure he spoke the sense of every country gentleman in England of sound principles, when he said that they would never object to have their names produced, or would never shun inquiry.
Mr. Maberly
rose, to enter his protest against the doctrine which had been laid down by the hon. gentleman, respecting county magistrates. He was himself in the habit of acting frequently in a town which required the constant attention of several magistrates, and he was sure they would have no objection to the motion. He considered the observations of the hon. member, as a slur upon the magistrates of Surrey; and he would protest on behalf of nine-tenths of them, against such an imputation.
Sir E. Knatchbull
complained, that the hon. gentleman had stated no reasonable grounds, to induce the House to accede to his motion, but seemed to consider it as a matter of course. He therefore thought his hon. friend was quite justified in opposing it. But, there was another objection to the production of these returns; namely, that it would be attended with great trouble, expense, and inconvenience. Unless the hon. member stated some good grounds for complying with the motion, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
Mr. Hume
said, he had thought it was fresh in the recollection of the House, that when he had called their attention to this subject, he held in his hand a return of the commitments by magistrates in London, and magistrates of other places, from which it appeared, that the greater part of those who had been committed by the London magistrates, had been convicted; from which he inferred, that a greater degree of attention must have been bestowed on the sifting of the evidence before committal. If he had supposed that any opposition would have been given to the motion, he would have brought down a document which was
648
Mr. Ashurst
said, that his fears arose from the probability that imputations would be thrown upon the magistrates which they would not possess the means of refuting.
Mr. Denman
was astonished at the extraordinary reason given for opposing the production of this return. What! was the proposition to be entertained, that as the powers of the magistracy were increased, they were to be made irresponsible? The unpaid magistracy must not be subjected to the possibility of aspersions being cast on their character. Then, on what ground was it that the police magistrates were to be exposed to imputations? Their labours were much more extensive and equally useful. The paid magistracy were, it was to be recollected, amenable to the home office, as well as to the House of Commons, and yet it was contended in that House, that it would be felt as a considerable hardship to call for any disclosure respecting the conduct of the unpaid magistracy! If such a feeling was to be permitted to prevail—if that House sanctioned the irresponsibility called for—then that body of magistrates would become an intolerable nuisance. Look at the variety of new powers that every session, somehow or other, these magistrates were acquiring. Let it look at the trespass act, and the many other acts, that gave the right of summary correction; and the House must feel that it was of the utmost consequence to watch
649
Mr. Sumner
denied that the unpaid magistracy was uncontrolled, they were subject to that most powerful control, the superintendence of the court of King's-bench.
Sir R. Heron
avowed himself as a county magistrate most solicitous to have his conduct fully investigated. The public superintendance ought to be exercised for the good of the people. As the Trespass act had been mentioned he must say, that he expected some member of influence would have before now moved for the repeal of that most unconstitutional act, by which a British subject might be punished for any thing, or for nothing.
The Attorney General
expressed himself most ready to subscribe to the principle, that every abuse of the administration of criminal justice should be fully investigated. The object of the motion was, to ascertain if any magisterial mismanagement existed in the adjoining counties to the metropolis, as compared with similar returns from the metropolis. He would therefore suggest, that in the first stage the returns might be made, with the omission of the names
650
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he considered the stipendiary magistrates, as of the government, to stand in a different situation from the county magistrates. He meant, that the conduct of the former was necessarily more open to inquiry. The motion, as proposed to be modified, he certainly should not object to.
Mr. Denison
approved of the suggestion of the attorney-general. As to his own conduct as a magistrate, he wished to have it fully investigated; and he felt himself bound in justice to say, that there was not a more diligent, anxious, or praiseworthy body, than the magistrates of Surrey.
Mr. Alderman Thompson
instanced a case that had come before himself, where the accused parties, amounting to three, were committed on the clearest evidence; but, in consequence of the prosecutor declining to prosecute, they were discharged without trial. And yet, by such a return, an imputation would be thrown upon him.
Mr. Grey Bennet,
as a magistrate of Surrey, expressed himself anxious for the fullest publicity. He also bore his testimony to the respectability of the magistracy of that county.
Mr. Hume
said, that when he first intended to move for these returns, he never contemplated any objection thereto. The object he had in view was, that having had presented to him the names of some three, four, or five magistrates, he was anxious to have the regular returns, in order to compare the statements he had received with the official documents. He should then have been able to ascertain what was the more advisable course to take. He had no objection, however, to shape the motion so as to meet the suggestion of the attorney-general.
The motion so modified was then agreed to.
EXPORTATION OF BRITISH WOOL.]
Mr. Stuart Wortley
said, he rose to present
651
Ordered to lie on the table.
EXCISE LICENCES.]
Mr. F. Palmer
presented a petition from the licensed victuallers of Reading, against the Excise Licences. He trusted the House would take the subject into their serious consideration, as it was one of great importance and as the existing system was the cause of considerable injustice.
Mr. Monck
trusted the House would feel the importance of relieving the nation from these licenses, which operated as a kind of poll-tax. It was the most unequal kind of impost, as whether a man sold a greater or less quantity of beer, he was subjected to the payment of the same sum. He trusted that this, therefore, would be one of the burthens of the people which the House would determine to take off: for it was quite as oppressive as that odious window tax, to which he trusted the House would that evening put an end. The difficulties of all kinds under which publicans laboured, were very great.
652
d.
d.
d.
Ordered to lie on the table.
REPEAL OF THE WINDOW TAX.]
Mr. Hobhouse
said, he held in his hand a petition from a number of Inhabitant householders of the parish of St. Anne's, Westminster, praying for a repeal of the whole, or such part as relate to the Window duties, of the assessed taxes. This petition was from a portion of the great body of petitioners who petitioned that House in the beginning of the year 1822. He had an opportunity of knowing, that if it had not been strongly reported that it was the intention of the chancellor of the Exchequer to propose the remission of a large portion of the assessed taxes, and especially the window tax, petitions similar to the present would ere this have been presented from the whole of the city of Westminster; and meetings were at present convoked of the whole of the parishes of Westminster, for the purpose of petitioning the House not to carry into effect the plan which the chancellor of the Exchequer had proposed. The petition which he had now the honour to present was signed by nine hundred householders of the parish of St. Anne's; and he begged the House particularly to remark, that it proceeded from persons of every kind and denomination of political opinion. He was quite sure, that when the House was told, that the first paragraph stated the sense which the petitioners entertained of "the firm, wise, and enlightened policy of that honourable House," they would not believe that the petition was "got up," as it was termed,
653
l.
654
Mr. Hobhouse
next presented a petition from the inhabitants of the parish of St. Mary, Lambeth, in the county of Surrey; setting forth,
House and Window Tax.
Rent.
Windows.
Duties 1797.
Duties 1817.
Addition per Cent.
£.
£.
s.
d.
£.
s.
d.
On a House of
50
25
9
0
0
22
10
2
150
On a House of
50
30
10
0
0
20
14
2
167
On a House of
50
35
11
0
0
30
18
2
180
On a House of
50
40
12
0
0
35
10
2
200
On a House of
100
25
11
10
0
29
11
10
157
On a House of
100
30
12
10
0
33
15
10
172
On a House of
100
35
13
10
0
37
10
10
181
On a House of
100
40
14
10
0
43
0
10
196
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
s.
d.
655
Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. Hobhouse
then rose to make the motion of which he had given notice. He began by observing, that he was quite sensible, that on the present occasion he should stand in need of the whole of that indulgence which the House had been in the habit of being kind enough to give him, on the various occasions on which he had felt it his duty to trouble them. These were not mere words of course; they were prompted by a sentiment which he unfeignedly felt, and which he was sure every body would be aware he must feel, when he was about to handle so vitally important a subject as the taxation of the country; and when it was his intention, he would not say to follow, because that would be irregular, but to allude to the recent speech of the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer, who had enlightened even his political enemies by some of the sound views of commercial policy which he had opened. If the right hon. gentleman followed up those views, and carried them into practice, he would acquire, he would not say that noisy quality fame, but he would acquire that high and lasting character, which ought to be the first object of the ambition of every man who aspired to a share in the government of a country. At the same time, although in the commercial course which the right hon. gentleman was pursuing, he was actuated by the most correct principles—principles from which no man, who had at all considered
656
en passant,
657
s.
s.
658
659
660
"Of whatsoe'er descent the godhead be,
A stock, a stone, or homely pedigree,
In his defence his servants are as bold
As if he had been formed of beaten gold."
l.
661
l
662
663
l
l.
l
664
l
665
l
l
l
l
l
l
s
d
666
l
l
l
667
1. "That it appears to this House, that the reduction of taxes proposed by his majesty's chancellor of the Exchequer, is not such as to satisfy the just expectations of the people.
2. "That the window-tax is unjust, unequal in its operation, and most oppressive to the least opulent portion of the community; and that it appears to this House that the said tax should, from the 5th of next April, be totally and immediately repealed."
Mr. Maberly
rose for the purpose of submitting to the House some observations on this subject. He thought it was extremely important, because the proposal submitted to the House by the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer, was not for one year, but for four; and no further reduction of the public burthens could be looked for by the people during that period. He was particularly desirous to guard himself against any misconstruction, or a charge of inconstancy, with respect to what had fallen from him on a former evening, and what he should have to offer on the present occasion. When the right
668
669
670
l
l
671
l
lend
l
l
672
l
l
l
s
s
l
673
674
675
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he could not but regret to find that he was that evening placed in rather a peculiar situation; for it had become his duty, not only to defend the propositions which he had on a former night submitted to the House, but also to assign the grounds upon which he could not acquiesce in either of the two plans that had been brought forward by the hon. members for Westminster and Abingdon. He trusted, however, that what he should have to observe upon this occasion would justify the ground he had taken on a former evening, and satisfy the House, that no reasons had been shewn why he should accede to the suggestions submitted by those honourable gentlemen. The question now was, not whether taxes should increase, or whether existing taxes should be maintained, but whether one of two particular modes of proceeding should be adopted, by way of giving relief to the people—it being admitted upon all hands, that a certain amount of taxes should be repealed. It was obvious that this statement narrowed the question between himself and the two hon. gentlemen opposite very considerably. But, before he proceeded to answer the hon. member for Westminster, it might be convenient that he should reply to the speech of the hon. member who had just sat down. From that hon. gentleman's speech he did not very clearly collect, whether he meant to support the motion of the hon. member for Westminster or not. The hon. gentleman had, however, admitted his belief, that the propositions which he (the chancellor of the Exchequer) had submitted to the House a week ago, were right in themselves, and he was obliged to that hon. gentleman for the justice that he had done him. But then the hon. gentleman wished to superinduce upon those propositions, an additional reduction of taxes, in the way and by the means that he had just stated to the House; such additional reduction, therefore, being contingent and dependent upon the result of a certain plan—namely, a plan for facilitating the operation of the sale
676
677
panacea
678
679
l
680
l
l
681
l
l
682
l
l
l
l
683
l
l
l
l
l
684
l
l
l
l
685
686
Mr. J. Smith
rose to express his gratitude to the right hon. gentleman, for having attended to the suggestion he had thrown out on a former night relative to the removal of the duty on law proceedings. That, however, was only one grievance. There was another, which he would mention, though it was not now before the House, he meant the great expense attendant on such proceedings. He did not think that the taxes which had been taken off, ought to satisfy the people. After the miseries they had so patiently endured, they had an irresistible claim to every possible relaxation from the burthen of taxation, and he hoped the increasing prosperity of the country would allow an efficient reduction to be granted to them. Notwithstanding all that had been done, a large portion of the people were still heavily oppressed by taxes. How, then, could gentlemen reconcile it to their minds, after what the country had gone through, to expend the sum of 800,000
l
l
687
l
l
l
688
Mr. Gipps
referred to the report of the commissioners for building churches, in order to show, that 500,000
l
Mr. Whitmore
expressed his decided approbation of the financial statement which had been laid before the House by the right hon. gentleman: it did equal honour to the right hon. gentleman and to the country. He was sure the country would feel grateful to the right hon. gentleman for the principles which he had propounded, when they should, at no distant period, be sensible of the beneficial effects which would result from them. If he felt any regret, it was because the right hon. gentleman had not carried the excellent principles which he had advocated to the extent to which they might be carried. The House would perhaps anticipate, that he alluded to the question which he had last session the honour of bringing under their notice, namely, the trade in corn. It was impossible that ministers could take into consideration a question more deeply affecting the interests of the people than that trade. If gentlemen would examine into the present system, and ascertain its evils, they would be convinced that justice and good policy demanded that it should be abolished. With respect to the motion before the House, he must declare that he did not feel disposed to vote in its favour. He thought the chancellor of the Exchequer had gone as far as he possibly could go at present, in the way of reduction of taxation. He could not proceed further, consistently with the policy which ministers had pursued, and in which he fully concurred, of maintaining a considerable surplus of income over expenditure. Much as he regretted the being placed in a situation in which it was necessary for him to vote for the continuance of a tax, he could not avoid it on the present occasion. A sense of duty compelled him to vote in opposition to his feelings, but in accordance to his judgment.
Lord Althorp
rose to declare the reasons which would induce him to vote for
689
690
l
Mr. Baring
observed, that after all the budgets which honourable members might bring in their pockets to be discussed in that House, the only question which it was necessary to consider was, whether, in the present situation of the country, a sinking fund ought, or ought not, to be retained? His noble friend had stated what was perfectly true, that the debt of this country was an annuity, and that the capital of the debt was nothing more than the limitation of the amount for which the annuity could be paid off. But the conclusion which his noble friend drew from these premises was a most extraordinary one, for he seemed to infer that it was the same thing whether the stockholder was paid off by the lowering of the interest of money according to law, or whether the same thing was effected by an arbitrary reduction of the interest of the debt. ["No, no," from lord Althorp.] He was happy to find that he had misunderstood his noble friend. He would therefore abstain from making any observation on that point, but to refer to a statement which he was perfectly sure had fallen from his noble friend; namely, that the price of stock did not depend on what was called the trifling operation of the sinking fund. On that point he totally differed from his noble friend. On
691
692
693
l
l
694
Lord Althorp,
in explanation, stated, that he had applied his remarks, not to the reduction of the stocks, but to the reduction of interest generally, by ceasing to withdraw the sinking fund from the active capital of the country.
Mr. W. Smith
agreed with his hon. friend who spoke last, that the sinking fund had become a nick-name for a thing
695
l
696
Mr. Baring,
in explanation, said, it was plainly not a want of credit in the government of Holland which obliged it to give such a high rate of interest, but the want of a surplus revenue to devote to redeeming the debt.
Lord Milton
said, he could not agree with all the propositions which fell from his hon. friend the member for Taunton. To begin with the last, he would ask his hon. friend, if he would turn his powerful mind to the subject, and would consider the nature of the government of this country, whether he did not think that public credit rested on some other foundation than that of the sinking fund? He begged him to consider, if his own presence in that House, in the midst of the representatives of the people (for so he would still call them, however imperfectly they answered the description) was not a proof that they were a nation of freemen, governing themselves by their own will, and not subject to the arbitrary power of a despotic ruler? Was not this, he would ask, one of the sources, and the chief source, of our credit? Fond as the hon. member for Taunton was of attributing this to the sinking fund, he would ask him, whether he would not rather lend; money to the government of this country, though it had no surplus revenue whatever, than to the grand seignior, with the greatest possible sum of surplus revenue? Was it, therefore, the sinking fund, or the free and stable institutions of this country, not subject to be overthrown or changed by the caprice of any one man—
697
698
Mr. Hume
was surprised at the statement of the hon. member for Taunton, and at the situation in which it placed gentlemen on his side of the House. He differed totally from his hon. friend, and almost from every one around him [alaugh]. He differed, he said, from most of those around him, in not considering the present question to resolve itself into the other, question—shall we, or shall we not, keep up a sinking fund? It must be admitted, that it was possible, by reducing our establishment both to keep a sinking fund, to pay off a part of the debt, and to remit taxes. We might by reducing our establishment take a large sum from the national debt, and lessen the amount of taxes. He held in his hand the balance sheet, and from that he would prove what he said. He there found, that the expense for the military and miscellaneous matters
699
700
1
s
l
s.
s.
l
701
Mr. Sykes
rose, amidst general cries of Question! He said he should gratify the impatience of the House by merely making one observation. Two propositions had been submitted to the House, and but for the late hour of the night, he should state to the House, why, of the two he should give the preference to the system of finance proposed by the chan-
702
Mr. Hobhouse
briefly replied. He said the chancellor of the Exchequer had given no answer to the question which her had put to him, namely, whether 56 millions of taxes were to be continued to be raised on the people? He had a right to consider this burthen enormous; and he was sure, that, whatever opinion might be entertained in that House, out of doors the system would be. universally deprecated. It had been allowed by the House, and indeed by the Government, that of all the assessed taxes, the window-light tax would be the most desirable to be repealed, and therefore it was, he was anxious to press it upon the House. His hon. friend had talked of the politeness of the tax-gatherer; but he believed it would be generally found he was polite to the rich, but very much the reverse to the poor. In one of the petitions which he had presented to the House, it was stated, that the tax-gatherer had actually taken away the beds of the unfortunate people, to collect that very tax of which he now sought the repeal. He should not trouble the House further; but he trusted they were now convinced of the propriety of adopting the proposition [hear, hear!].
The House divided. For Mr. Hob-house's motion 88: Against it 155: Majority 67.
List of the Minority.
Abercromby, hon. J.
Cavendish, H. F. C.
Allen, J. H.
Chaloner, R.
Althorp, visc.
Clifton, visc.
Baring, sir T.
Colborne, N. W. R.
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Creevey, T.
Bernal, R.
Davies, T.
Belgrave, visc.
Davenport, D.
Bright, H,
Denison, W. J.
Brougham, H.
Denman, T.
Burdett, sir F.
Duncannon, visc.
Calvert, J.
Dundas, hon. T.
Calvert, C.
Ellice, E.
Carter, J.
Gordon, R.
Cavendish, C. C.
Graham, S.
703
Guise, sir B. W.
Portman, E.
Gurney, H.
Price, R.
Hamilton, lord A.
Poyntz, W. S.
Heathcote, J. G.
Pym, F.
Heron, sir R.
Ramsden, J. C.
Honywood, W. P.
Rice, T. S.
Hume, J.
Robarts, A.
Hutchinson, hon. C. H.
Robarts, G.
James, W.
Robinson, sir G.
Jervoise, G. P.
Rowley, sir W.
Johnstone, W. A.
Russell, lord J.
Kemp, T.
Sefton, earl of
Kennedy, T. F.
Smith, J.
Keck, G. A. L.
Smith, W.
Leader, W.
Stewart, lord J.
Lennard, J. B.
Sykes, D.
Lethbridge, sir T.
Taylor, C. M.
Leycester, R.
Tennyson, C.
Lloyd, T. M.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Lockhart J. I.
Tynte, C. K.
Maberly, W. L.
Warre, T. A.
Marjoribanks, S.
Webbe, E.
Milton, visc.
Western, C. C.
Moore, P.
Whitbread, S.
Mildmay, P. S.
Whitbread, W.
Monck, J. B.
Wilson sir R.
Mundy, J.
Wood, M.
Newport, sir J.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Ord, W.
Wyvill, M.
Pares, T.
TELLERS.
Palmer, F.
Palmer, C.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Philips, G. H.
Maberly, J.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 4, 1824
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.]
Earl Grosvenor
presented a petition which he slated was signed by a great number of respectable persons in Bury St. Edmund's, who prayed that their lordships would be pleased to consider of the means of producing a gradual Abolition of Slavery. In the mean time, they prayed for the amelioration of the condition of the unfortunate negroes in the colonies. They also prayed, that any measures which might be adopted should be accompanied with a due consideration of the interests of those persons who possessed estates in the colonies; in a word, that while justice was done to the slaves, those who might thereby suffer loss should be indemnified. It seemed to be an understanding, that that part of the question which concerned the conduct of the persons who composed the houses of assembly in the colonies should not be brought forward; that their proceedings, whether right or wrong—and as to that he did not then mean to give an opinion—bad better not be discussed. He should therefore at present abstain
704
705
Earl Bathurst
said, he would not enter into the questions on which the noble earl had touched, but he wished to take that opportunity of informing the House, that to-morrow se'nnight he would lay on the table, by his Majesty's command, certain papers relating to the state of negro slavery in the colonies. He would avail himself of that occasion to give an explanation of the measures which his majesty's ministers had thought proper to adopt, for the moral and religious improvement of the negroes, in pursuance of the resolution of the House of Commons.
SOUTH AMERICA.]
The Earl of Liverpool
rose to lay on the table, by his majesty's commands, certain communications which had passed between his Majesty's government and the governments of France and Spain, relating to the provinces of South America. The subject had been adverted to in his majesty's Speech at the opening of the session, but the correspondence could not then with propriety be made public. As however, the causes which prevented them from being made public no longer existed, there could be no objection to their being laid before their lordships.
The Marquis of Lansdown
wished to know whether it was the intention of the noble earl to found any motion on the subject of these papers, or to recommend to the House any proceeding respecting them.
The Earl of Liverpool
said, he did not intend to make any motion or propose to their lordships any proceeding connected with these papers. They were laid on the
706
The Marquis of Lansdown
reminded their lordships, that soon after the commencement of the session, he had intimated his intention of bringing forward a motion on the state of the late Spanish colonies. He was not aware that the papers now laid on the table could contain any thing which ought to make him alter his intention; but having always been desirous of allowing his majesty's ministers to explain their system of policy with respect to those states, and not wishing to embarrass in any way the question, he should wait until he had read the papers, before he came to any final determination respecting his notice.
The Earl of Liverpool
said, he had given notice of his intention to move for a committee to take into consideration the office of Clerk of Parliament. It was then his wish to postpone this proceeding until two noble lords, who had always paid particular attention to the official business of parliament, should be both in town. He understood, however, that the attendance of one of those noble lords could not be obtained until an advanced period of the session; but as the other noble lord whose assistance he wished to obtain, was present, he did not think it proper to delay carrying his intention into effect any longer. He therefore now gave notice, that he would on Monday next move their lordships to appoint a committee.
BOUNTIES ON IRISH LINEN.]
The Marquis of Lansdown
wished to advert to a subject which had been touched on during the last sitting of the House; namely, the means of ameliorating the state of the south of Ireland. In a conversation which had taken place on the proposal of his Majesty's government for withdrawing the bounty on Irish linen, he understood it to have been stated by the noble earl opposite, that the reason why the bounty was to be immediately taken from the coarse Irish linen was, that no exportation of that article had taken place from Ireland. Now, when the noble earl made this statement, he could not be aware of the real state of the case. The fact was, that during the two last years there had been an increasing exportation of coarse linens from the north of Ireland; and he was persuaded that the encouragement of this manufac-
707
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that when be had stated that no coarse linens were exported from Ireland, he had been induced to make that observation from knowing that the bounty on it had never been drawn. At least such was the information he had received, and he believed it to be correct. He would, however, state8 for the satisfaction of the noble marquis and the House, that, as the bounty on fine linen, was not to be suddenly withdrawn, it was intended to adopt the same principle with respect to the bounty on coarse linen, and to reduce it gradually. Thus the evil apprehended from the abolition of the bounty on these two manufactures would be guarded against as far as possible. With regard to the encouragement which the noble marquis looked forward to for this manufacture, he trusted it would be realized. He was confident, that if the country continued to enjoy the blessings of peace, the diffusion
708
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 4, 1824
COMMUNICATIONS WITH FRANCE AND SPAIN RELATING TO THE SPANISH AMERICAN PROVINCES.]
Mr. Secretary Canning
on presenting, by command of his Majesty, copies of communications with France and Spain, relating to the Spanish American provinces said, it would probably be recollected, that in the debate which took place on the address, he had stated, that some time would elapse before he should he able to communicate precise information as to the course which government had pursued with regard to the Spanish American provinces—The papers which he now laid on the table contained that information.
The said papers are as follow;
COMMUNICATIONS WITH FRANCE AND
No. 1.—Extract of a Memorandum, of a Conference between the Prince De Polignac and Mr. Canning, held Oct. 9th, 1823.
The prince de Polignac having announced to Mr. Canning, that his excellency was now prepared to enter with Mr. Canning into a frank explanation of the views of his government respecting the question of Spanish America, in return for a similar communication which Mr. Canning had previously offered to make to the prince de Polignac on the part of the British cabinet, Mr. Canning stated—
That the British cabinet had no disguise or reservation on that subject; that their opinions and intentions were substantially the same as were announced to the French government, by the despatch of Mr. Canning to sir Charles, Stuart of the 31st of March; which despatch that ambassador communicated to M. de Chateaubriand, and which had since been published to the world.
That the near approach of a crisis, in which the affairs of Spanish America must naturally occupy a great share of the attention of both powers, made it desirable that there should be no misunderstanding between them on any part of a subject so important.
That the British government were of
709
That the British government would, however, not only abstain from interposing any obstacle on their part to any attempt at negotiation which Spain might think proper to make, but would aid and countenance such negotiation, provided it were founded upon a basis which appeared to them to be practicable; and that they would, in any case, remain strictly neutral in a war between Spain and the colonies, if war should be unhappily prolonged.
But that the junction of any foreign power, in an enterprise of Spain against the colonies, would be viewed by them as constituting an entirely new question; and one Upon which they must take Such decision as the interests Of Great Britain might require.
That the British government absolutely disclaimed, not only any desire of appropriating to itself any portion of the Spanish colonies, but any intention of forming any political connexion with them, beyond that of amity and commercial intercourse.
That in those respects, so far from seeking an exclusive preference for British subjects over those of foreign states, England was prepared, and would be contented, to see the mother country (by virtue of an amicable arrangement) in possession of that preference; and to be ranked, after her, equally with others, on the footing of the most favoured nation.
That, completely convinced that the ancient system of the colonies could not be restored, the British government could not enter into any stipulation binding itself either to refuse or to delay its recognition of their independence.
That the British government had no desire to precipitate that recognition, so long as there was any reasonable chance of an accommodation with the mother country, by which such a recognition might come first from Spain.
But that it could not wait indefinitely for that result; that it could not consent to make its recognition of the new states dependent upon that of Spain; and that
710
That the mission of consuls to the several provinces of Spanish America was he new measure on the part of this country: that it was one which had, on the contrary, been delayed, perhaps too long, in consideration of the 6tate of Spain, after having been announced to the Spanish government in the month of December last, as settled; and even after a list had been furnished to that government of the places to which such appointments Were intended to be made.
That such appointments were absolutely necessary for the protection of British trade in those countries.
That the old pretension of Spain to interdict all trade with those countries, was, in the opinion of the British government, altogether obsolete; but that, even if attempted to be enforced against others, it was, with regard to Great-Britain, clearly inapplicable.
That permission to trade with the Spanish colonies had been conceded to Great Britain in the year 1810, when the mediation of Great Britain between Spain and her colonies was asked by Spain, and granted by Great Britain: that this mediation, indeed, was not afterwards employed, because Spain changed her counsel but that it was not, therefore, practicable for Great Britain to withdraw commercial capital once embarked in Spanish America, and to desist from commercial intercourse once established.
That it had been ever since distinctly understood that the trade was open to British subjects, and that the ancient coast laws of Spain were, so far as regarded them at least, tacitly repealed.
That in virtue of this understanding, redress had been demanded of Spain in 1822, for (among other grievances) seizures of vessels for alleged infringements of those laws: which redress the Spanish government bound itself by a convention (now in course of execution) to afford.
That Great Britain, however, had no desire to set up any separate right to the free enjoyment of this trade; that she considered the force of circumstances, and the irreversible progress of events, to have already determined the question of the existence of that freedom for all the world; but that, for herself she claimed,
711
That, with these general opinions, and with these peculiar claims, England could not go into a joint deliberation upon the subject of Spanish America, upon an equal footing with other powers, whose opinions were less formed upon that question, and whose interests were less implicated in the decision of it.
That she thought it fair therefore to explain beforehand, to what degree her mind was made up, and her determination taken.
The prince de Polignac declared,—
That his government believed it to be utterly hopeless to reduce Spanish America to the state of its former relation to Spain.
That France disclaimed, on her part, any intention or desire to avail herself of the present state of the colonies, or of the present situation of France towards Spain, to appropriate to herself any part of the Spanish possessions in America, or to obtain for herself any exclusive advantages.
And that, like England, she would willingly see the mother country in possession of superior commercial advantages, by amicable arrangements; and would be contented, like her, to rank, after the mother country, among the most favoured nations.
Lastly, that she abjured, in any case, any design of acting against the colonies by force of arms.
The prince de Polignac proceeded to say,
That, as to what might be the best arrangement between Spain and her colonies, the French government could not give, nor venture to form an opinion, until the king of Spain should be at liberty.
That they would then be ready to enter upon it, in concert with their allies, and with Great Britain among the number.
In observing upon what Mr. Canning had said, with respect to the peculiar situation of Great Britain, in reference to such a conference, the prince de Polignac declared,
That he saw no difficulty which should prevent England from taking part in the
712
The prince de Polignac further declared,
That he could not conceive what could be meant, under the present circumstances, by a pure and simple acknowledgment of the independence of the Spanish colonies; since, those countries being actually distracted by civil wars, there existed no government in them which could offer any appearance of solidity; and that the acknowledgment of American independence, so long as such a state of things continued, appeared to him to be nothing less than a real sanction of anarchy.
The prince de Polignac added,
That, in the interest of humanity, and especially in that of the Spanish colonies, it would be worthy of the European governments to concert together the means of calming, in those distant, and scarcely civilized regions, passions blinded by party spirit; and to endeavour to bring back to a principle of union in government, whether monarchical or aristocratical, people among whom absurd and dangerous theories were now keeping up agitation and disunion.
Mr. Canning, without entering into discussion upon these abstract principles, contented himself with saying,
That, however desirable the establishment of a monarchical form of government in any of those provinces might be, on the one hand, or whatever might be the difficulties in the way of it, on the other hand, his government could not take upon itself to put it forward as a condition of their recognition.
P. G. C.
No. II.—Sir William A'Court to Mr. Secretary Canning. (Received Jan. 14,)
(Extract.) Madrid, Dec. 30, 1823.
The enclosed note, though dated the 26th, did not reach me till yesterday. By my answer, a copy of which I have the honour to enclose, you will see, that I
713
(Signed) WILLIAM A'COURT.
(Translation of First Enclosure in No. 2.) Count Ofalia to Sir William A'Gourt.
Palace, Dec. 26, 1823.
Honoured Sir,—I have the honour to inform you that the king, my august master, has determined to devote his particular attention to the regulation of the affairs concerning the disturbed countries of Spanish America, being solicitous to succeed in pacifying his dominions, in which the seeds of anarchy have taken root, to the prejudice of the safety of other governments. His majesty has therefore thought, that he might justly calculate on the assistance of his dear allies, towards obtaining results which cannot but prove beneficial to the tranquillity and happiness of all Europe.
The enclosed copy will put you, Sir, in possession of the orders issued to his Catholic majesty's representatives at the Courts of Austria, France, and Russia; and as the ministers of Spain have not yet proceeded to London and Berlin, the king has directed me to address to you, Sir, and to the minister of Prussia at this Court, a transcript of the said communication; which his majesty hopes you will have the goodness to transmit to your government, whose friendship and upright policy, the king, my master, trusts, will know how to appreciate the frankness of this communication, and the equity which has dictated the basis on which it is founded.
I avail myself of this opportunity, &c. (Signed) THE CONDE DE OFALIA.
To the Minister of England.
(Translation of Second Enclosure in No. 2.)
Count Ofalia to his Catholic majesty's Ambassador at Paris, and ministers Plenipotentiary at St. Petersburgh and Vienna.
The king, our sovereign, being restored to the throne of his ancestors in the enjoyment of his hereditary rights, has seriously turned his thoughts to the fate of his American dominions, distracted by civil war and brought to the brink of the most dangerous precipice. As during the last three years the rebellion which prevailed in Spain defeated the constant efforts which were made for maintaining
714
These reflexions powerfully animate his majesty to hope that the justice of his cause will meet with a firm support in the influence of the powers of Europe. Accordingly, the king has resolved upon inviting the cabinets of his dear and intimate allies to establish a conference at Paris, to the end that their plenipotentiaries, assembled there along with those of his Catholic majesty, may aid Spain in adjusting the affairs of the revolted countries of America. In examining this important question, his majesty will, in conjunction with his powerful allies, consider of the alterations which events have produced in his American provinces, and of the relations, which, during the disorders, have been formed with commercial nations; in order thereby to adopt with good faith the measures most proper for conciliating the rights and just interests of the Crown of Spain and of its sovereignty, with those which circumstances may have occasioned with respect to other nations. His majesty, confiding in the sentiments of his allies, hopes that they will assist him in accomplishing the worthy object of upholding the principles of order and legitimacy, the subversion of which, once commenced in America, would presently communicate to Europe; and that they will aid him, at the same time, in re-establishing peace between this division of the globe and its colonies.
It is, therefore, his majesty's pleasure, that, penetrated with these reasons, and availing yourself of the resources of your well-known talents, you should endeavour to dispose the government with which you reside, to agree to the desired co-operation, for which the events of the Peninsula have paved the way; authorising you to communicate a copy of this note to the minister for Foreign Affairs. God preserve you many years.
(Signed) THE CONDE DE OFALIA.
715
(Third Enclosure in No. 2.)
Sir William A'Court to Count Ofalia.
Madrid
*
The undersigned, &c. &c. has the honour to acknowledge the receipt of the count Ofalia's note, dated the 26th of this month. He will hasten to submit it to his government. He begs his excellency to accept, &c.
(Signed) WILLIAM A'COURT.
No. III.—Mr. Secretary Canning to Sir W. A'Court.
Foreign Office, Jan, 30, 1824.
Sir,—The messenger, Latchford, delivered to me, on the 14th instant, your despatch, enclosing a copy of the count de Ofalia's official note to you of the 26th of December last; with the accompanying copy of an instruction. Which has been addressed, by order of his Catholic majesty, to his ambassador at Paris, and to his ministers plenipotentiary at the courts of Vienna and St. Petersburgh.
Having laid these papers before the king, I have received his majesty's commands to direct you to return to them the following answer:—
The purpose of the Spanish instruction is, to invite the several powers, the allies of his Catholic majesty, to "establish a conference at Paris, in order that their plenipotentiaries, together with those of his Catholic majesty, may aid Spain in adjusting the affairs of the revolted countries of America."
The maintenance of the "sovereignty" of Spain over her late colonies is pointed out in this instruction as one specific object of the proposed conference; and though an expectation of the employment of force for this object, by the powers invited to" the conference, is not plainly indicated, it is not distinctly disclaimed.
The invitation contained in this instruction not being addressed directly to the government of Great Britain, it may not be necessary to observe upon that part of it, which refers to the late "events in the Peninsula," as having "paved the way" for the "desired co-operation."
The British government could not acknowledge an appeal founded upon transactions to which it was no party. But no such appeal was necessary. No variation in the internal affairs of Spain has, at any time, varied the king's desire to see a termination to the evils arising from
716
From the year 1810, when his majesty's single mediation was asked and granted to Spain, to effect a reconciliation with her colonies,—the disturbances in which colonies had then but newly broken out,—to the year 1818, when the same task, increased in difficulty by the course and complication of events in America, was proposed to be undertaken by the allied powers assembled in conference at Aix-la-Chapelle; and from the year 1818 to the present time, the good offices of his majesty for this purpose have always been at the service of Spain, within limitations and upon conditions which have been in each instance explicitly described.
Those limitations have uniformly excluded the employment of force or of menace against the colonies, on the part of any mediating power; and those conditions have uniformly required the previous statement by Spain, of some definite and intelligible proposition, and, the discontinuance, on her part, of a system utterly inapplicable to the new relations which have grown up between the American provinces and other countries.
The fruitless issue of the conferences at Aix-la-Chopelle would have deterred the British government from acceding to a proposal for again entertaining, in conference, the question of a mediation between Spain and the American provinces, even if other circumstances had remained nearly the same. But the events which have followed each other with such rapidity during the last five years, have created so essential a difference, as well in the relative situation in Which Spain and the American provinces stood, and now stand to each other, as in the external relations and the internal circumstances of the provinces themselves, that it would be vain to hope that any mediation, hot founded oh the basis of independence, could now be successful.
The best proof which the British government can give of the interest which it continues to feel for Spain is, to state frankly their opinion as to the course most advisable to be pursued by his Catholic majesty; and to answer with the like frankness the question implied in M. Ofalia's instruction, as to the nature and extent of their Own relations with Spanish America.
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There is no hesitation in answering this question. The subjects of his majesty have for many years carried on trade and formed commercial connexions in all the American provinces, which have declared their separation from Spain.
This trade was originally opened with the consent of the Spanish government. It has grown gradually to such an extent as to require some direct protection, by the establishment at several ports and places in those provinces, of consuls on, the part of this country—a measure long, deferred out of delicacy to Spain, and not resorted to at last without distinct and timely notification, to the Spanish Government.
As to any further step to be taken by his majesty towards the acknowledgement, of the
de facto
But it, appears manifest to the British government, that if so large a, portion of the globe should remain much longer without any recognized political existence or any definite political connexion with the established, governments of Europe, the consequences, of such a state of things must be at once most embarrassing to those governments, and most injurious to the interests of all European nations.
For these reasons, and not from mere views of selfish policy, the British government is decidedly of opinion, that the re-cognition of suck of the new states as have established
de facto
The British government have no desire to anticipate Spain in that recognition. On the contrary, it is on every account their wish, that his Catholic majesty should have the grace and. the advantage of leading the way, in that recognition, among the Powers of Europe, But the court of Madrid must be aware, that the discretion of his majesty in this respect cannot be indefinitely bound up by that of his Catholic majesty; and that even before many months elapse, the desire now sincerely felt by the British government, to leave this precedency to Spain, may be overborne by considerations of a mere comprehensive nature,—considera-
718
Should Spain resolve to avail herself of the opportunity yet within her power, the British government would, if the court of Madrid desired it, willingly afford its countenance and aid to a negotiation, commenced on that only basis, which appears to them to be now practicable; and would see, without reluctance, the conclusion, through a negotiation on that basis, of an arrangement, by which the mother country should be secured in the enjoyment of commercial advantages superior to those conceded to Other nations.
For herself Great Britain asks no exclusive privileges of trade, no invidious preference, but equal freedom of commerce for all.
If Spain shall determine to persevere in other counsels, cannot but be expected that Great Britain must take her own course upon this matter, when the time for taking it shall arrive; of which Spain shall have full and early intimation.
Nothing that is here stated can occasion to the Spanish government, any surprise.
In my despatch to sir Charles Stuart of the 31st of March, 1823, which was communicated to the Spanish government, the opinion was distinctly expressed, that "time and the course of events had substantially decided the separation of the colonies from the mother country; although the formal recognition of those provinces, as independent states, by his majesty, might be hastened or retarded by various external circumstances, as well as by the more or less satisfactory progress, in each state, towards a regular and settled form of government."
At a subsequent period, in a communication
*
*
† Austria, Russia, Prussia, Portugal, the Netherlands, and the United Stales of America.
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After thus declaring to you, for the information of the court of Madrid, the deliberate opinion of the British government on the points on which Spain requires the advice of her Allies, it does not appear to the British Cabinet at all necessary to go into a conference, to declare that opinion anew; even if it were perfectly clear, from the tenour of M. Ofalia's instruction, that Great Britain is in fact included in the invitation to the conference at Paris.
Every one of the powers so invited has been constantly and unreservedly apprised not only of each step which the British government has taken, but of every opinion which it has formed on this subject—and this despatch will be communicated to them all.
If those powers should severally come to the same conclusion with Great Britain, the concurrent expression of their several opinions cannot have less weight in the judgment of Spain,—and must naturally be more acceptable to her feelings, than, if such concurrence, being the result of a conference of five powers, should carry the appearance of a concerted dictation.
If (unhappily, as we think) the allies, or any of them, should come to a different conclusion, we shall at least have avoided the inconvenience of a discussion by which our own opinion could not have been changed;—we shall have avoided an appearance of mystery, by which the jealousy of other parties might have been excited; we shall have avoided a delay which the state of the question may hardly allow.
Meanwhile, this explicit recapitulation of the whole course of our sentiments and of our proceedings on this momentous subject, must at once acquit us of any indisposition to answer the call of Spain for friendly counsel, and protect us against the suspicion of having any purpose to conceal from Spain or from the World.
I am, &c.
(Signed) GEORGE CANNING.
FOREIGN SILKS—PETITION AGAINST
Mr. Ellice
presented a petition from the silk weavers of Coventry: against the importation of Foreign Silks. The hon. gentleman stated, that the
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Mr. Robertson
contended, that the petitioners did not view the proposition of the chancellor of the Exchequer in the true light. The object was, not to increase the domestic consumption of the articles manufactured of silk, but to extend the foreign commerce of the country, by enabling foreigners to have that assortment in this country which allowed them to complete their investments. The question for removing the prohibition on the exportation of long wool was a more delicate one, the article being the exclusive growth of this country; but still he thought viewing the other great interests of the state, that, by the reduction of the tax, more general benefit would arise than partial evil to any particular class.
Mr. P. Moore
rose for the purpose of giving his decided support to the petition. The House would recollect, that the city of Coventry contained a population of nearly 50,000 persons, the greater proportion of whom depended for actual subsistence on the prosperity of the ribbon trade. When that trade flourished,
721
Ordered to lie on the table.
FRENCH PECUNIARY INDEMNITY.]
Colonel Davies
rose, pursuant to, notice, to move for the production of certain papers, calculated to shew the application of the Monies received from France by way of Indemnity. The question had been already submitted to the consideration of parliament in a most able and eloquent speech, by his distinguished friend the member for Knaresborough (sir J. Mackintosh). The constitutional objections which his hon. friend had then offered to the appropriation of monies thus accruing had been too forcibly expressed in that House to be soon forgotten, and, therefore, it was not his intention to enlarge upon the subject, but powerful as were the arguments of his distinguished friend, they were not successful at the time. It was contended by ministers, that money, thus obtained, was to be considered as droits of the Crown, and that consequently the executive were not responsible. But if the ministers were not responsible, where was the necessity of accounts? If they were the stewards of the people, the money they received, in consequence of those treaties, was the property of the people, and could only be appropriated by a vote of their representatives. Had the right hon. gentleman, who now filled the office of chancellor of the Exchequer, been in the same situation at that time, he felt a strong persuasion that no such objections would have been put forth. In the appropriation of that money there was a sum of 9,971
l.
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l.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
observed, that whatever difference of opinions existed heretofore on the question of constitutional right, as to whom the money thus received belonged, he should now say, that it formed no part of the present consideration. It was sufficient for him; in answer to the hon. and gallant member, to state that he had no objection to the returns called for, satisfied that such returns would afford a full and satisfactory explanation of the manner in which such money was applied.
The motion was agreed to.
RENEWAL OF OFFICES ON THE DEMISE
Sir R. Heron
rose to ask leave to bring in a bill to prevent the necessity of the Renewal of Offices on the Demise of the Crown. It might be proper for him to account for the delay which had occurred since the time—nearly two years ago—at which he had given his first notice of a motion on this subject. At that time there were so many subjects of pressing and immediate expediency, that he thought it best to give way. In the course of last session, the temporary indisposition of the king prevented him. It ocurred to him, that such a moment would be the most unfit in point of delicacy, and that respect which was at all times due from the parliament to the Crown. It was well known that formerly, the occupation of every office, and the existence of parliament itself, terminated with the life of the king. It was found that great incovenience arose from this sudden suspension of all the legislative and executive functionaries, and a bill was brought in to prevent that effect with respect to the parliament. Various acts were passed from time to time which partially and by degrees removed the inconvenience of the renewal, with respect to some of the superior offices. At length it suggested itself to the enlightened mind of the late Mr. Ponsonby, to extend that principle, to introduce a temporary bill to prevent the renewal of offices on the demise of the late king. He was persuaded that Mr. Ponsonby's motive for limiting his measure to a temporary
723
724
Mr. Secretary Canning
observed, that the hon. baronet had kept his word with the House in refraining from going into any great length on the subject of his motion, and he would follow the hon. baronet's example. The hon. baronet appeared, indeed, to assume, without argument, that considerable alterations were necessary in the principles of the constitution, even in the most sacred of them. He knew none more sacred than that which threw on the Crown the most pleasing, and took away from it the most unpleasing functions. But, the hon. baronet seemed to think, that a new sovereign ought immediately to have imposed upon him acts of severity and harshness; and that he should have a ministry fastened on him who had not received his approbation, unless he had recourse to the ungracious step of instantly dismissing them. He must either leave his cabinet precisely as he found it, or act with apparent harshness. Now, it was one of the great principles of the constitution, that every appointment under the Crown flowed as a favour from the Crown; and it was neither just nor wise to invert that principle, and to assume, that, at the demise of the Crown, every man possessed of office must remain in office, unless dismissed by the new sovereign. One of the hon. baronet's views was very inaccurate. The hon. baronet had said, that in former times, not only offices but parliament itself terminated on the demise of the Crown; but that was felt to be so monstrous a thing, that the legislature stepped in to prevent it. But the principle now was, that parliament did terminate at the demise of the Crown. It was true, that to prevent confusion, the dissolution was postponed until six months after the demise of the Crown, not on the principle which the hon. baronet supposed, but on the principle, that parliament ceased and extinguished on the demise of
725
Mr. Hume
thought, that an important part of the object of the hon. baronet, namely, that which related to the fees, might be obtained without going to the extent proposed by the hon. baronet's bill. That was at present a very great hardship, especially as it respected the army and the navy; and he thought a satisfactory arrangement might be made
726
Mr. Brougham
remarked, that the whole argument of the right hon. gentleman was applicable to the form and to the substance of the proposed measure. The question was, to what description of offices it was fit that it should apply? It appeared to him, that a previous inquiry would be the most satisfactory way of proceeding; and he suggested to his hon. friend the expediency of withdrawing his present motion, for the purpose of moving for the appointment of a committee, to examine and ascertain the facts.
Mr. Tierney
was of a similar opinion. The inequality of the fees was, he said, at present most unjust. Some of them were exorbitant; on several offices they amounted to two or three thousand pounds. He was at a loss to conceive how an act of the sovereign, by which so many of his subjects were required to pay a heavy fine, could be called an act of grace and favour.
Mr. Canning
observed, that this was very different from a mere question of fees. He was sure the hon. baronet would disdain the narrow ground on which his hon. and learned and his right hon. friend wished to place his motion. The fact was, that the hon. baronet's object was, to amend the constitution; to place the monarch in a situation in which he had not before been placed. It was impossible that the hon. baronet should have been concocting his bill for two years, and that then he should make it the miserable, paltry, money question that the hon. and learned and the right hon. gentlemen wished to make it. As to Mr. Ponsonby's bill, the word "fees" was not in it.
Mr. Brougham
said, it was his firm belief, that the right hon. gentleman and those who opposed this bill would not have done so, if it related to constitutional principles only; but that their opposition was excited by the "miserable, paltry question" of fees.
Mr. Denman
thought the proposed bill might be important in a view which had not hitherto been taken of it. It was one of the first acts of the last reign to make
727
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he had come to a conclusion exactly opposite to that of the hon. and learned gentleman who had just spoken. So forcible an objection to the bill, as the fact which had been stated by the hon. and learned gentleman in its favour, had not previously occurred to him. To render the judicial office independent, parliament had stepped out of its way, and provided that that office should not cease on the demise of the the Crown. But the hon. and learned gentleman wished the hon. baronet's bill to be brought in, by which bill the army and navy would be put on the same footing of independence of the Crown as the judges.
Sir R. Heron
disclaimed any share in "concocting" the measure. It was word for word, with the exception of the provision respecting magistrates, copied from Mr. Ponsonby's bill. If the gentlemen opposite, therefore, thought the measure so erroneous in principle, and calculated to give so harsh a character to the exercise of the royal prerogative, why did they agree to Mr. Ponsonby's bill? For this was the same bill, except that it was perpetual instead of being temporary. The principal object of the bill was to prevent immense sums from coming adventitiously into the pockets of persons not entitled to them. As for the change in the constitution which the right hon. gentleman imputed to the bill, he could not see any. He would, however, withdraw his motion, and take time to consider what further proceedings to adopt.
The motion was withdrawn.
POYAIS EMIGRATION.]
Mr. Hume
wished to put a question to the right hon. gentleman opposite. The evils which had resulted from the emigration to Poyais were well known to the House. He un-
728
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, the office to which the hon. gentleman alluded was altogether without the sanction of the government, and the people could not be too cautious in listening to the delusive representations which were made to them, and in relying on the promises of the mercenary projectors.
COUNTY COURTS BILL.]
On the motion of lord Althorp, that this bill be read a second time,
The Attorney-General
rose to propose that some indemnity should be provided for the Prothonotaries and other officers of the Court of Common Pleas. Those officers held their places by patent, and had paid large sums for the purchase of them; and he submitted, that upon the principle which the House had recognized in other cases, they were entitled to be recompensed for any loss they might sustain by the bill now in progress. If the Court of Common Pleas were to be abolished altogether, there could be no doubt that the House would feel it necessary to provide for these officers, and as their emoluments were now to be materially diminished, he thought they had a proportionate claim. There were officers of the Court of King's Bench who were equally entitled, but these would probably be brought before the House by some other person.
Mr. Hume
hoped, that if the noble lord adopted the learned gentleman's suggestion, he would also insert a clause to prevent all such offices from being sold in future.
Dr. Lushington
thought the House might, with great propriety, institute an inquiry into this subject. Nothing could be more detrimental to the administration
729
Mr. Bernal
said, that a commission ought to be issued, for the purpose of inquiring into the abuses of the law courts. Nothing, he was convinced, would operate on the system but a commission, with very extensive powers, or a committee of that House.
Lord Althorp
said, the question of compensation presented many and very great difficulties. He admitted, that where parties were in the possession of vested rights, they were entitled to be indemnified for any damage which those rights might sustain; but this principle did not apply to the case of a diminution of fees. He apprehended that if this principle were once admitted, the House would have to go much further than was at present contemplated.
The bill was read a second time.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 5, 1824
PROTESTANT CHURCH IN IRELAND—TITHE COMPOSITION.]
Sir John Newport
presented a Petition from the parish of Devenish, in the county of Fermanagh, complaining that its parishioners had been long inconvenienced for the want of a Church. That parish comprehended one hundred and thirty heads of families, all Protestants, and yet was deprived of a place of worship. Formerly there had been a chapel of ease, but the ground on which it stood became the object of a Chancery suit, on which there was now an appeal depending. The rector under
730
l
l
l
Mr. Goulburn
said, it was not to be expected that he should be prepared to meet every individual case that was offered by hon. members. He still, in reference to the observations of the right hon. baronet, felt himelf bound to say, that there was not in Ireland a more worthy, excellent, or scrupulous clergyman than Dr. Wood-
731
Mr. Dawson
bore his testimony also to the excellent character of Dr. Woodward. He was an English gentleman possessed of property in his own country; but he preferred for the purpose of doing good to reside on his living in Ireland.
Sir J. Newport
said, he was not in the habit of indulging in statements without inquiring into the grounds upon which they were founded. His authority for stating to the House what he had felt it his duty to offer respecting Dr. Woodward, rested upon a communication that he had received from a peer of parliament, who was himself present at the meeting of the parishioners and who had authenticated every part of it. He should therefore have felt that he had derogated from the line of his duty, if he had hesitated to present petitions, or to enter upon the explanation he had done under such unquestionable authority.
Ordered to lie on the table.
SILK TRADE]
Mr. Baring
said, he had a petition to present on a subject of the utmost importance to the petitioners, and, as he conceived, to the whole country. It prayed the House not to consent to the proposition for taking off the prohibition on the importation of manufactured silks. The petition was signed by nearly all the most respectable individuals in London and the neighbourhood, concerned in the manufacture and trade of silk, without the admission of any of the labouring classes of the manufacturers. On the merits of the object of the petition, there was but one opinion throughout the trade; and, as he understood, the only objection made by a single individual was to some of the words used in the petition, and not in the remotest degree to the prayer, in which, on the contrary, all heartily concurred. But the question was one which affected not only a large part of the population of the metropolis, but also that of many country towns; and among the rest, the town which he had the honour to represent; in all of which, the proposition for taking off the prohibition on the importation of French silk was considered a serious grievance. Whether as the manufacturers or as the sellers of silk, they concurred in thinking that the removal of the prohibition, if persevered in, would be
732
733
734
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, he did not rise to object to the bringing up of the petition; for no man was more disposed, on every act of the government, whether political or commercial, that the general sense of the country should be collected and stated to parliament. He begged the House to consider in what a situation all those were likely to be placed, if the reasoning of the hon. gentleman were adopted, who were desirous of introducing a practical illustration of a liberal system of commercial policy. It should be recollected, that this liberal system had been pressed upon ministers by the whole House, and by no individual with more effect and authority than by the same hon. member who had
735
Mr. Denman
said, he was happy to listen to the opinions which now seemed to be the fashion on the other side of the House. It was certainly true, that parliament ought not to wait until all inconvenient regulations were removed;
736
ad valorem
Mr. Huskisson
said, he had expected that the hon. and learned gentleman who spoke last, was rising to advert to a part of the speech of the hon. member for Taunton, not touched upon by the right hon. secretary for foreign affairs, namely, prohibitions. He was surprised, after what the hon. gentleman had advanced upon previous occasions, to hear him defend that system. Those prohibitions gave powers to Custom-house officers which had not unfrequently been termed unconstitutional. They might search the person, or the dwelling, and resort to other modes of detection and examination, very irksome to the character of Englishmen. The hon. gentleman had applied himself altogether to the great benefit of continuing the tax, which formed no part of the plan of the chancellor of the Exchequer: he was for preserving the absolute prohibition, with all the consequences of clandestine introduction. When the hon. member for Taunton
737
Mr. Davenport
contended, that the proposed plan would prove a damper, if not an extinguisher to the silk trade.
Mr. Ellice,
although he approved of a liberal system of policy in matters of trade, was unwilling to commence the alteration with that branch of industry, which was exposed to the greatest chance of successful competition. The silk manufacture was not a native, but an exotic in this country; and in it we were still
738
739
Mr. Secretary Peel
observed, that the hon. gentleman who spoke last had used two arguments, both of which he should like to submit to him calmly, and not in his capacity of member for Coventry. The first was this—"I admit the force of your reasoning in favour of a liberal system of commercial policy. But I ask you to look for some other prohibition that may safely be removed." Let the hon. gentleman point out any other branch of manufacture in which any such prohibition existed. In fact, there was none; and the hon. gentleman assumed the general policy to be prohibition, whereas, silk alone was the exception. Did not this afford one strong reason for repealing it? On steel, cotton, wool, and all the other great articles of manufacture, there was no prohibition, and yet in these it had been found that we were able to defy all competition. The second argument of the hon. gentleman was even more extraordinary, and led to a directly opposite inference to that which he had drawn from it. He had said that, in the silk manufacture, Great Britain was inferior to France, in point of taste and machinery. Now, did not this fact lead to the suspicion, that, on account of these prohibitions, the same improvements had not been made in this manufacture that had been made in all others? Let those prohibitions be removed, and our taste and our machinery would speedily improve. As to silk not being a native manufacture in this country, the hon. gentleman must indeed have been driven to an extremity for an argument, or he would not have resorted to that. It was quite as much a native manufacture of this country as cotton or linen, and had flourished in this soil for forty" or fifty years. If, indeed, the
740
Mr. Ellice
denied, that he had said any thing about the superior taste, and machinery of France.
Mr. Peel
regretted that he had misunderstood the hon. gentleman, but he had certainly supposed him to have urged that point.
Mr. Philips
was of opinion, that the protecting duty of 30 per cent would be amply sufficient. Great changes must produce temporary inconveniences, and on this account the progress should be rendered as gradual as possible. He felt satisfied that the measures recently adopted by government would effect a great improvement in the commerce and manufactures of this country. It was evident that popularity was not their object; for the measures which they had selected were not popular. They were entitled to the thanks of the House and of the people: for they had evidently been influenced by a sincere desire to promote the prosperity of the country.
Sir J. Newport
agreed with the hon. member, that ministers were entitled to the approbation of the House and the country for the measures which they had recently adopted. He believed they could not confer a greater benefit on the country, than by steadily persevering in that course. When an erroneous system had continued for a number of years, and formed a part of the general policy of the country, the difficulties of legislating with a view to the removal of the evils pro-
741
Captain Maberly
deprecated the clamour which had been raised against the endeavours of his majesty's government to introduce a sounder system of commercial policy, by the very parties whose interests those measures were essentially calculated to promote. It had been contended, that these measures ought not to be attempted, unless such an alteration was made in the corn laws as would lower the price of bread in the same proportion with other commodities. Now, there was no one principle in political economy which had been more frequently and ably inculcated by the late Mr. Ricardo, than that the high price of corn had no effect whatever on the price of other commodities.
Mr. T. Wilson
felt himself called upon, as one of the representatives of the city of London, while he was ready to give his tribute of praise to the king's ministers, for the manly and candid manner in which they had brought forward their measures, to express his doubts as to their propriety or expediency, under the existing circumstances of the country. The Opinion he had formerly expressed respecting the wool duties remained unchanged, and applied with equal force to those on silk. Until, by an alteration in the corn laws, the people of this country should be enabled to eat their bread as cheap as the people of foreign countries, the repeal of the duties on silk would fail of the end it was intended to accomplish. He was convinced of the inexpediency of the measure at the present moment; but he had one consolation, namely, that the chancellor of the Exchequer had expressed his readiness to enter into a full discussion of the subject.
Mr. Littleton
said, that his constituents were unanimously opposed to the measure contemplated by his majesty's ministers, and if they persisted in pressing it, he should certainly feel it his duty to vote against it.
Mr. Hume
said, there was one point of view in which this question had not been considered by any member who had yet addressed the House. He should be glad to know, who were the parties aggrieved by this measure? Who were the petitioners? The working men, or their masters, or both? Let the House con-
742
Sir J. Wrottesley
thought that theorists were apt to maintain too dogmatically the infallibility of their particular opinions. It was but fair, in his opinion, to give the petitioners credit for a little common sense, and for the capacity of understanding their own interests better than other people. What was the particular case of the silk manufacturers? A fortnight ago they stated that they were in a most flourishing condition; that their trade was never better; and that their workmen were all employed* contented and happy. What did they tell the House
743
l
Mr. J. Smith
could not conceive how the silk manufacturer could possibly be injured by a measure which would enable him to procure the raw material a great deal cheaper. An additional tax on the raw material had often been the subject of complaint, but it was quite novel to find the manufacturer coming forward to say to the legislature, you will ruin us by remitting the tax on the raw material. The effect of the measure would undoubtedly be to increase consumption, and give additional employment to the artizans engaged in this manufacture. He thanked his majesty's ministers for the liberality with which they had brought forward these measures, and for the spirit and energy they had displayed in supporting them.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said:—The proposition which I had the honour to submit to the House, has been so ably supported by my right hon. friends, and has also received such powerful and disinterested support from so many hon.
744
Mr. Alderman Bridges
expressed his conviction, that 50 per cent on many articles would not sufficiently protect the English against the French manufacturer. No less than 600,000 persons were engaged in the silk trade, and he was quite sure that his majesty's ministers would not adopt a measure which was calculated to involve so large a body in misery and distress.
Mr. Curteis
spoke against the repeal of the duties on silk, and said he could tell the right hon. gentleman of away by which he could set himself right with the country. If he would only say a word to them about the repeal of the tax on leather, malt, and hops, he would receive a much more gratifying approval from the people at large, than all the plaudits of his own bench or of that side of the House could afford him.
Mr. Mundy
said, that the proposal of
745
Mr. Haldimand
trusted that his majesty's ministers would persevere in a measure, of the beneficial effects of which there could not be the slightest doubt. Nothing could be more certain than that every protection and bounty was detrimental to trade. If a trade could not support itself without that artificial support which was erroneously called protection, it was not, in point of fact, worth carrying on at all. His chief object in rising was to observe, that the chancellor of the Exchequer would not fully discharge the duty which he owed to the silk manufacture of the country, if he did not also consent to the repeal of the measures commonly called the Spitalfields acts. It was quite impossible that the benefits of free trade could be produced, unless the principle of free labour were also established. The effect of these acts was, to make some articles 100 per cent, dearer in London than in other parts of the country. It often happened, upon the spur of the moment, that it was better worth while even to pay that additional charge than to send to Coventry; but he asked whether, as applied to foreign trade, it was possible under such restrictions, that the manufacturer could compete with other markets? There was another topic which he would take that opportunity of mentioning. We Were told we had a free silk trade with India. This he denied. It could not be called a free trade, so long as the East India Company could limit the number of individuals who were permitted to go out to India. [hear, hear] An instance of the injustice of this practice had lately fallen within his own knowledge. A person was educated in a silk warehouse in this country, for the purpose of going afterwards to India to engage in that trade. It was well known that the number of persons acquainted with the value and nature of silk in India was extremely limited, and that coarse and fine descriptions of that article were sold at the same price. An application was made to the East India Company to allow the person he had alluded to, to be sent out to a private house in India, carrying on trade there, and the application had been refused. He did not complain of this, because their act justified the Company in their refusal; but it proved that they did
746
d
d
Mr. Portman
observed, that no county in the kingdom was more disappointed, and dissatisfied with the financial statement of the right hon. gentleman opposite, than the county which he had the honour to represent. He should feel it his duty to oppose the measure proposed by the right hon. gentleman, not because he objected to the liberal policy on which it was founded, which every man must applaud, but because he did not conceive this to be the proper time for carrying that policy into effect. If he thought that his present opposition would throw-any serious obstacle in the way of the ultimate success of the commercial policy, adopted by the government, he should be inclined to vote for the measure; but feeling, as he did, that it might be carried, with greater benefit to the country, at a more convenient season, he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
Mr. Wynn
said, he had given an attentive examination to every case in which an appeal had been made to the Board of Control from the refusal of the Court of Directors to allow an individual to proceed to India, and he had not the least recollection of any such case as that mentioned by the hon. member There had been many cases in which the Board of Control had given permission after the Court of Directors had refused it. He thought it very unlikely, from what he had seen of the conduct of the Court of Directors, that if any person shewed a probability of his having full employment in India in trade or commerce, that the directors would
747
Mr. Haldimand,
in explanation, said, that the application was made to the directors for leave to the gentleman in question to go out as a clerk to the house of Palmer and Sons, one of the first houses in Calcutta, and he might say in the world. The application was made generally for permission to go out as a clerk to Palmer and Sons, and leave was refused, on the ground that there were a sufficient number of young men unemployed in Calcutta. He did not apply indeed to the Board of Control, as he was advised that such an application would not to be attended to, as many applications of exactly the same kind had been refused.
Mr. Wynn
said, it appeared that the individual had applied to go out simply as a clerk, and in refusing him permission the Court of Directors had acted with perfect propriety, and the Board of Control would have confirmed their refusal. It was certainly unjust, while the natives and half castes were excluded by law from all offices under the Company, that an influx of Europeans should also exclude (hem from the clerkships which they might fill. He spoke of the system as it stood; and during the term of the Company's charter it could not be altered: person who went out a clerk, might, the day after his arrival, be thrown out of employment and become a mere adventurer.
Sir T. Lethbridge
hoped, that after what had passed that night, the chancellor of the Exchequer, when the question concerning the change in the silk and woollen trade was again brought forward, would come to the House with an altered tone, it had been said that night, that no trade was worth supporting that would not support itself. He should wish to know what our great staple manufactures would have done, if they had been left to support themselves? The woollen, the cotton, and the other great staple the silk, which was now doing very well, and which would continue to do well, so long as it was protected from that free trade on which the ministers and the House were running wild. He said "running wild" because he was convinced that its principles never could be carried into operation. Neither corn, nor wool, nor cotton, nor
748
s
s
749
Mr. Evans
said, that large bodies of men might misunderstand their own interests. Of which they had had a striking example, in the representations against the repeal of the Union duties on goods carried from England to Ireland, or
vice versè
Mr. Baring
begged to say a few words in reply to some of the observations that had been made on the subject in debate. There was a great difference, he observed, between the abolition of restrictions on the intercourse between the islands of Great Britain and Ireland, and a change of the relations in which these islands stood with regard to foreign countries. There could be no doubt that restrictions on the intercourse between different parts of the same empire, must be injurious to the mass of the people, and particularly in the case of Ireland. The low rate of wages there, and its great population might, now the restrictions were removed, lead to the introduction of manufactures to the great benefit of that island. It had been said that it was an abandonment of principle on his part, after having so long advocated free trade, to come forward now with this petition for an exception. In advocating free trade, however, he had never gone further than a free trade in the raw material, and a free transit of all goods, so that England might have facilities for enjoying the carrying trade of the world; but he had never gone so far as to hold out that, without any reciprocity of concession, we should open our ports to the introduction of continental manufactures. The argument of the abstract political economists was, that we should get every commodity wherever we
750
751
Mr. Davenport
contended against the alteration of the laws affecting the silk trade. The House was called on by the chancellor of the Exchequer, to give up 6, or 700,000
l
Ordered to lie on the table.
EXPORTATION OF WOOL—PETITION
Mr. W. Smith
said, that the petition which he held in his hand was so nearly similar in its statement of facts, and in the manner in which its prayer was supported, to that which the hon. member for Taunton had
752
Ordered to lie on the table.
SOUTH AMERICA.]
Sir James Mackintosh
said, that having carefully perused the papers which were last night laid upon the table of the House, he rose to put to the right hon. secretary for foreign affairs one or two questions upon subjects connected with them. The first of these questions would be,
753
Mr. Secretary Canning
observed, that to the questions of his hon. and learned friend he would answer separately; but he would invert the order in which those questions had been put. And first, as to the supposed treaty between Spain and Great Britain. No such treaty was in existence to the best of his knowledge. In the year 1810, when this country proposed to interpose her mediation between Spain and her colonies in America, it was merely upon an understanding between the two governments, that the coast law of Spain should be suspended, as between the subjects of the two nations. No instrument, as far as he had ascertained, was in existence, in which this agreement was recorded. Any motion, therefore, by his hon. and learned friend, upon the subject of this supposed treaty would
754
755
Sir J. Mackintosh
said, he had listened to every word that had fallen from the right hon. secretary; but, as at present advised, he saw nothing to induce him to alter his original intention of bringing the subject before the House.
GAOL ACT AMENDMENT BILL—TREAD-MILL.]
On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Bennet
said, he would avail himself of that opportunity to make some observations on the conduct pursued, in many of the prisons, with respect to the punishment of hard labour, especially as connected with the Tread-mill. He began by alluding to the conduct of the magistrates of Northallerton, who had persevered in inflicting the punishment of hard labour previous to conviction. Finding that such a proceeding was contrary to law, they said that they would not compel prisoners to work in the mill, but they took care to exercise severities towards them, in the event of their refusing to work; and it was of little consequence to the individual, whether he was directly ordered to work, or on being half-starved for his refusal, was compelled to prefer labour to famine. The magistrates of Northallerton could compel persons to hard labour; for there were other modes besides that of the tread-mill. He should therefore feel it his duty to propose a clause, providing that no person before trial should be allowed to work at hard labour, even with his own consent, otherwise these amateur magistrates would be enabled to persist in their favourite speculation. He was a great friend to the principle of the tread-mill properly applied; but it was only as a punishment after conviction that he could feel himself justified in approving of it. Transportation, generally speaking, was rather a favour than a punishment to convicted offenders, and hard labour at the treadmill might Often be substituted with ad-
756
757
758
759
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that as to the employment of prisoners, before trial, on the tread-mill, the objections of the hon. gentleman applied to employment of every description, as well as that of the tread-mill. In fact, this was the declared opinion of the legislature. In a bill passed last session there was a clause, which he thought was so clear that it could not be mistaken, by which it was expressly forbidden to put any prisoner to hard labour before he was sentenced to it. Contrary to his expectations, however, it had been misunderstood. One instance had occurred in which a prisoner, before trial, was put to hard labour; and it was thought no infringement of the act, because he had made his choice of going to hard labour in preference to being kept on bread and water, which was the alternative offered him. This was, no doubt, a breach of the act. He had thought it almost impossible to make a law more precise than the act of the 4th of Geo. 4th. cap. 64. The right hon. gentleman here read the clause which, in substance, stated, that no magistrates should be authorised to make prisoners go to hard work before trial, unless by their voluntary consent, when they were to receive a proper proportion of the money they earned by their labour. And, even with their own consent, this act did not authorise the magistrates to class such prisoners with convicted persons. He was surprised that the intention of this clause should have been doubted; but as it had been, there was now a necessity to provide some remedy. He felt, however, a great difficulty in doing this. Pie was as ready to admit, as the hon. gentleman, that the employment of the tread-mill before trial was a great grievance, and under the present act it was not lawful so to employ it. By the laws of this country, every man was presumed innocent until he had been tried; when accused of any offence he was not deprived of his liberty as a punishment, but to insure his presence on the day of trial. It was, in the first place, therefore, extremely unjust to send unconvicted prisoners to work at the tread-mill. But he objected to it also on the ground of its weakening the effect of that punishment. It took away the stigma that should belong to the punishment appropriated exclusively to guilt, by making it also the lot of the
760
761
762
Sir T. Baring
said, he was not a very cordial friend to the tread-mill, since its effects were differerent on different persons. Suppose two men, one brought up to hard labour, and another to idleness, to have committed the same crime, and both to have been sentenced to the tread-mill, it was plain that the degree of punishment would be very different for each. The tread-mill at Winchester was one of the first established in the kingdom, and was, he believed, one of the best. He could say, that since it had been in use, the prisoners were more afflicted with colds and rheumatisms than before. He was of opinion, that the application of this punishment should be laid under restraints and restrictions. As a proof of this, the
763
Mr. H. Sumner
said, he was much surprised at the course pursued by the hon. baronet, who had taken a part of the report of the committee, and had founded his argument upon the particular case of Mrs. Loder. Now, he would read that case from beginning to end. It was thus set forth in the report;—"The woman Loder was committed by the petty sessions at Guildford (the rev. G. Walter Onslow, chairman), on the 11th October last, on a charge by the parish officers of Godalming, of having been delivered of a bastard child, and being then chargeable to the parish. It appeared that the said bastard was her third child, by three several fathers; and she was sentenced to the mitigated term of three months' confinement to work at the house of correction. She was put upon the wheel on the 13th of October, but on account of the feeble and emaciated state in which she appeared at that period, she was not upon the wheel again for the next fourteen or fifteen days of her imprisonment, nor till extra allowance of food for her, and 12 ounces of bread and an ounce of sugar
per diem
764
Mr. Western
said, that with respect to the proposition of asking no prisoner to work, his opinion was, that as employment was better than perfect indolence, it would be ruinous to deprive the prisoners of the option of employment. An objection had been taken to the punishment of the tread-mill, because it was said to be degrading. Now he thought that all punishment should be accompanied with a feeling of degradation; because it was desirable to make delinquents feel the debasement to which their offences had reduced them.
Mr. W. Courtenay
said, it was manifest that the regulations of this bill could not be applied to all gaols, and could only produce practical good in those gaols which were adapted for its application. He agreed with his hon. friend who spoke first, that the state of the inferior gaols imperiously pressed itself upon the attention of the House; and he looked at the clause now proposed to be introduced in. the bill, as only one step towards the amelioration of our prisons. He thought the more prudent course would be, to adopt this measure in the first instance, and then look out for further information, with
765
Mr. Alderman Wood
expressed his surprise at the cheers which followed the statement of the hon. member for Surry, respecting the case of Mrs. Loder. This poor woman had been worked constantly on the tread-mill for hours together; and, what was her crime? Why, simply, that she had three children by three fresh men. Now he found that in the country the gaols were filled in consequence of offences against the game laws, or cases of bastardy. But in London they had little experience of either class. He could not agree, that a distinction was to be drawn between the hard labourer and a clerk, who perhaps might be committed to prison. He thought that the treadmill and all other punishments should be distributed alike, without reference to persons. He would put a case, which many members must have heard of, he meant that of a man, who holding a situation of 3,000
l
766
The bill was read a second time.
MUTINY BILL.]
On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Hume
said, he wished to take that opportunity of stating some of the objections which he felt to the present military system, as it was upheld in this country. The instance of his hon. and gallant friend (sir R. Wilson) was sufficient to point the attention of the House to the impolicy and injustice of the system. His hon. and gallant friend had given an explanation of his conduct, which was quite unanswerable, upon which the noble lord (Palmerston) had exercised more wit than judgment. But he mentioned that case at present, to show with what jealousy the House should view the subject. He was willing to concede, that there was a time in the history of this country—he meant in the reign of Charles the 2nd—when the king, possessed of absolute power, could do with the army as he pleased. With the Revolution however, a new æra arrived. In the preamble of a bill passed at that period, it was stated, that, as it was necessary to maintain a standing army, it was of importance that the regulations of that army should be considered. But, the question to which he was principally anxious to direct the attention of the House was, the system of flogging in the army; and he was sorry he did not now see in the House many of those who had formerly distinguished themselves in their opposition to this practice. He never could consent to grant the power of inflicting corporal punishment on 73,000 of our fellow-subjects. Now that we were at peace, this would be the time to remove it. If in other countries they found, that a discipline just as strict as that which was maintained in England, was observed, without the infliction of a single stroke,
767
768
769
Sir H. Hardinge
said, he rose as a
770
Mr. Hume,
in explanation, observed, that the gallant officer had attributed to him language which he had not used. He had merely repeated what had been stated on a former night, that when the drums were beaten in the morning, the association of ideas in the minds of the people residing in the neighbourhood, led to the painful reflection that the soldiers might be summoned to witness the punishment of the lash.
Sir Robert Wilson
observed, that whenever the subject of corporal punishment was brought before the House, he had always in the most unqualified manner, declared the practice to be degrading to the character of our soldiery, and unnecessary to the maintenance of its discipline. After the various discussions that had taken place on the subject, it was with surprise, he found, that the noble lord had done nothing to abolish such a practice, or at least to allow the law to become a dead letter. He knew well that he should be met with the old argument, that our army had displayed the highest character, and that its prowess was the admiration of the world. Why then continue so debasing a punishment? Was the constitution of the British army so base—was it formed of such worthless materials—that its courage could only be excited, and its conduct regulated, by the cat-o'nine-tails? In Germany flogging had been abolished. In Prussia—even in Prussia—the animal designated a soldier, for he could not call him a man, was no
771
Colonel Wood
said, he would not sur-
772
Mr. John Smith
said, that, indifferent
773
774
Mr. Monck
observed, that the very admission of the gallant officer, that the practice of flogging had been checked, and the discipline of the army improved, shewed that it was not necessary to the maintenance of discipline. In the first constituted army of Europe it was not allowed. In one of the first regiments in our service, the Blues, it never took place. Were not these unanswerable proofs, that the sure support of discipline was to possess a moral hold over a soldiery? Dismission from the French army was, a punishment: dismission from the Blues in our service was also dreaded by the men of that regiment, because it blasted their prospects, and deprived them of any participation in the regimental promotion, or superannuated fund, to which they were taught to look forward. Whereas, in all other regiments, dismission from the service was regarded as a gratification. He most cordially joined in. the opinion of the cruelty and the inefficacy of continuing such a degrading system.
The House having resolved itself into a Committee,
Lord Palmerston
said, he should shortly reply to certain observations and statements which had fallen from hon. gentlemen opposite. The right of the Crown to dismiss officers without the intervention of a court martial, had been so often argued, that he should only say, that the necessity for continuing that old and salutary prerogative was sanctioned by the avowed decision of parliament. He denied that there existed the remotest similarity between the capricious punishments inflicted by a slave owner, and the regular and judicial infliction of corporal punishment by the sentence of a court martial. Nothing could be more unfounded than the statement, that the pay of confined soldiers went into the pockets of the officers of the regiments [Mr. Hume said, in the Guards}. Not in the Guards either. The forfeited pay went to the stock purse of the regiments. For the hospi-
775
Mr. W. Smith
protested against the principle advanced by the noble lord. A more monstrous proposition had never
776
Mr. Hume
On that clause the committee divided: Ayes, 24; Noes, 50; Majority 26.
List of the Minority
Allan, J. H.
Powlett, hon. J. F.
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Ramsden, J. C.
Brougham, H.
Ramsbottom, J.
Browne, Dom.
Rice, T. S.
Buxton, T. F.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Evans, W.
Smith, John.
Grattan, J.
Smith, William.
Hutchinson, C. H.
Sykes, D.
Maberly, J.
Wells, J.
Maberly, W. L.
Wilson, sir R.
Martin, J.
Monck, J. B.
TELLER.
Palmer, C.
Hume, Joseph.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 8, 1824
SOCTH AMERICA.]
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he had, on Friday, intimated his intention of putting some questions to the noble earl opposite, on the subject of the papers which had been laid on the table, relating to South America; and though, from circumstances which had taken place elsewhere, some of the points on which he had wished for information might be considered as already answered, yet he still had three distinct questions on which he was desirous of obtaining explanation from the noble earl. The first question arose out of that part of the memorandum of the conference which took place between the Prince de Polignac and Mr. Canning in the month of October last, which related to the trade of this country with South America. It
777
The Earl of Liverpool
said, he wished to give the noble marquis every satisfaction in his power to give, in the state in which the question stood. With respect to the first question, there doubtless never had been any distinct stipulation or concession by treaty, of permission to the merchants of this country to trade to South America; but, undoubtedly, ever since the year 1809, when the first separation of the Spanish colonies from the mother country took place, their lordships must be aware that a trade had
de facto
778
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he understood, from what the noble earl had stated, that no answer had been received by his majesty's government to the communication made by them to the continental powers on the subject of South America;
779
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that no communication of the answers of those powers had been received by his majesty's government.
Lord Holland
wished to know whether the powers alluded to had made no communication of their intentions.
The Earl of Liverpool
replied, that not the slightest intimation had been received. He would not say that conversations had not taken place with some of their ministers, but no official communication had been received from any of them.
Lord Holland
considered the answer given by the noble earl perfectly satisfactory. It was just what he expected from him.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he was also to understand, that no answer whatever had been received to Mr. Canning's despatch.
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that that despatch had been communicated by sir W. A'Court to the Spanish minister, to be laid before the king at Madrid; but no answer, further than he had stated, had yet reached this country.
Earl Grosvenor
referred to the passage in the conference between Mr. Canning and prince Polignac, in which it is stated, that Great Britain "would consider any foreign interference by force or by menace, in the dispute between Spain and the colonies, as a motive for recognizing the latter without delay." Now, this language was stronger than that contained in the letter of Mr. Canning. He wished to know, whether ministers adhered to the intention of making any foreign menace a motive for recognizing the South American States?
The Earl of Liverpool
saw no difference in sense between the two papers. With respect to the word "menace," its meaning was vague, and depended upon the purport given to it by the person who used it. He should understand by it, as it appeared in the papers, any threat accompanied by an overt act, which implied an intention of carrying such a threat into execution. He would not, however, say any thing further at present on a subject which would so shortly be again brought before their lordships.
780
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 8, 1824
SILKS—PETITIONS AGAINST IMPORTATION OF MANUFACTURED.]
Numerous petitions were presented from various places against the importation of Manufactured Silks. Mr. Mundy having presented a petition from Derby,
Lord George Cavendish
supported the prayer of it. The proposition of an immediate change in these laws had, he said, caused a great stagnation in the trade. The petitioners did not express themselves wholly opposed to the repeal of the prohibitory system, but they prayed that a sufficient time should be allowed before such a material alteration was brought into effect.
Mr. Maberly
said, it was surprising to observe the anxiety which the intended alterations in the silk-laws had created out of doors; which anxiety was not only manifested by the petitions presented, but by the crowding of the London tradesmen and weavers about the passages of the House. The hon. gentlemen on his side of the House had been constant in their calls on the government for a reduction of the duties on raw produce, the removal of which was likely to lead to a large additional trade in the respective manufactures. But the very moment ministers were about to take the necessary steps to extend foreign commerce and internal consumption, that first step in the progress of a long-called-for and beneficial system was met with every species of opposition. It was exclaimed, "Do not repeal the prohibitory laws." Now, as to the legitimate operation of those laws, it was null and void. The smuggler at present possessed the disposition of these laws, and for an insurance of 20 per cent would introduce those very foreign articles. The proposition of the chancellor of the Exchequer was a most politic one; and he trusted the enlightened and unprejudiced portion of that House would give him their support.
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that before the discussion went further, it might be convenient that he should put the House in possession of the intended course of proceeding that night. As his right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, would not be in his place, in consequence of indisposition, the duty would devolve on him of submitting the views of go-
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Mr. Alderman Heygate
presented a petition from the silk-manufacturers of Sudbury, against the proposed measure. He begged to call the attention of the House to the situation of this borough. After suffering in the greatest degree from the decay of the woollen trade, it had revived by the introduction of the silk manufacture. The poor-rates had decreased to one-fourth of their former amount: the population was employed, and contented. In this situation, it was natural that they should look with alarm to any change in the existing laws. They were confident they could not compete with foreign countries, at so low a protecting duty. If smuggling could not be prevented now, when foreign silks were prohibited altogether, still less could it be prevented, when silks were admissible at a low duty. His constituents were no enemies to a free trade, but they were enemies to a partial legislation, which left the labourers of England under the operation of the corn laws, and yet exposed them to an open competition with foreign countries, where labour was free and untaxed.
Mr. F. Buxton
said, that he held in his hand a petition, signed by no fewer than 23,000 journeymen silk-weavers of the metropolis, praying that the prohibition of the importation of foreign wrought Silks might not be removed. Understanding that the right hon. gentleman opposite wished the discussion of this subject to be postponed to a later period of the evening, he would not say any thing at present on the merits of the case. He must, however, beg the House to observe, that there was this difference between the present petition and those that had been before presented on the same subject; namely, that all the other petitions were from
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Ordered to lie on the table.
SUGAR DUTIES.]
The House having resolved itself into a Committee of ways and means,
Mr. Huskisson
said, he had been given to understand that it was the intention of the hon. member for Aberdeen either to oppose the grant of the duties on sugar, or to propose an amendment on the vote. As, however, he himself had nothing to propose but that those duties should be continued in the usual manner, for the usual period, and at their present amount, he should reserve any observations he had to make on the subject until he had heard the objections of the hon. member. He then moved, that the several duties upon sugar granted in the last session of parliament be continued for the year ensuing.
Mr. Hume
said, he was reluctant, after the liberal policy which his majesty's ministers had adopted, to offer any opposition to their measures; and, unless he felt convinced that the proposition he had now to submit to the committee would, in no material degree, affect the revenue of the country, he would have refrained from bringing it forward. As, however, it related to ah article of general consumption, and as the reduction which he was about to recommend would, he be-
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Mr. Baring
said, it was the duty of the House, when reduction of taxes was proposed, to look at the different classes of the community, and to apply the relief
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Mr. Huskisson
said, that if he understood the hon. member for Aberdeen's observations respecting the effect of high duties on tobacco and wine, it was, that they prevented the consumption of those articles. This, however, hardly seemed to be the correct conclusion, from the statement on which the hon. member's Opinions had been formed; which were, that the high duties gave rise to extensive smuggling, and although the revenue was thereby diminished, the consumption was increased. Then, as the hon. member admitted, there was little or no smuggling of sugar, it was difficult to understand how he made the argument which he drew from the duties on tobacco apply to sugar. The same might be said of the wine duties, even if the facts assumed by the hon. member should be admitted for the purpose of argument. But, the hon. member had said that, from the termination of the war in 1814, there had been no increase in the consumption of sugar. Now this was so far from the fact, that he would assert, without the fear of contradiction, that no article had experienced an increased consumption proportioned to that of sugar, since the year 1814. He would not detain the House at any length upon this part of the subject, but it was quite impossible, after the hon. member's assertion, that he (Mr. Huskisson) could forbear to state the fact as it really stood. For the three years ending on the 5th of January, 1814, the average consumption of sugar was 2,215,000 cwt.; in 1821, it was 2,763,000 cwt.; making an increase of 548,000 cwt., or 20 per cent on the total consumption in seven years. By a document which was on the table of the House, and which would shortly be in the possession of hon. members, it would be seen that the consumption, up to January last, was 3,330,000 cwt., equal to an increase of 40 per cent on the consumption of the last nine years. In the face of these figures, he would ask the hon. gentleman, whether the high duties on sugar (and he had admitted that there was no smuggling) had checked its consumption? In Ireland, unfortunately, the circumstances of the country prevented the great bulk of the people from using this article so extensively as the people of England. But their distresses were not to be relieved by the diminution of a halfpenny in the pound
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Mr. C. R. Ellis
said, that it might be expected that the West-India planters would receive favourably a proposition to
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Mr. Ellice
said, he had entered the House well disposed to support the motion of his hon. friend. He apprehended, that the small remission of duty on rum would not introduce it into general use, and doubted, with the last speaker, whether the increased consumption of sugar was owing to permanent causes. The West-India interest was certainly entitled to such relief as the surplus revenue could afford; but he should be content that the present motion should be withdrawn, if the chancellor of the Exchequer would hold out any expectation that the subject of distillation from sugar should be taken into consideration by the government. If distillation from sugar were allowed when barley reached such a price as to allow of its importation, the landed interest would have no reason to complain of the boon to the West Indies. He did not ask nor expect any pledge on the part of ministers, but merely an assurance, that there existed such a disposition to aid the West-India body. He hoped that the right hon. gentleman would consent to lay the documents to which he had referred upon the table; for a part of the conclusion drawn from them he had not clearly understood. With regard to increased consumption from supposed increased prosperity, it ought to be recollected, that the price of provisions last year was excessively low, so that the poor were able to indulge in a few luxuries: whereas, next year, in consequence of the advance in the price of provisions, they might hardly be able to purchase the necessaries of life. In the present state of the West Indies, all the assistance that could be afforded should be granted to them.
Mr. Calcraft
observed, that as he was more interested in the growth of barley than he was in the cultivation of sugar, his opinion in favour of allowing the distillation of sugar was at least disinterested. He did not see the slightest objection to allowing sugar to come into competition with barley, when barley could be imported; at present it was, he believed, within 5
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Mr. Huskisson
explained, that he had wished to state, that though in 1814, from the accession of the new colonies, there had been an increase of surplus supply, and though that supply had gone on increasing, the consumption had been increasing in so much more rapid a degree, that in a short time there would most probably be no surplus. With respect to the production of these accounts, he had stated nothing beyond what was to be found in the accounts before the House: he had only taken the pains to extract the accounts of the different years, to show that the consumption had been increasing more rapidly than the produce, so that if the production were, as in the distressed state of the West Indies it probably would be, checked, the demand would soon equal the consumption. As to the suggestion of the hon. member for Taunton, for admitting sugar into the distilleries when barley rose to a certain price, if there was a general feeling in the House and the country, that liberty should be given to the distillers to avail themselves of sugar under those circumstances, he would say for himself, that he saw no objection to the measure. He did not see, however, that there was any immediate relief to be expected to the West-India interest from this measure. Barley was admitted into our, ports when the
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Mr. Benett
, of Wilts, said, he saw no objection to the admission of sugar into the distilleries, when barley had approached the importation price. He wished, however, to assure the House, that agriculture was by no means in so flourishing a condition as many gentlemen imagined. He wished, however, to ascertain a fact much more immediately interesting to the agriculturists; namely, whether the distillers were to be permitted to convert rum into gin, now that rum was admitted at the reduced duty; if so, he understood the consumption of grain in distilleries would be at an end.
Mr. Huskisson
presumed the hon. gentleman was aware, that the distiller and the rectifier were two distinct callings in this country. If the question applied to the latter, it was certainly matter of great difficulty to answer the hon. gentleman, whether the rectifier should be allowed to decline the spirit in the market which had been distilled from corn by the distillers, and, by an easy process, to convert rum, the produce of a British colony, into what was considered as British spirits.
Mr. Benett
wished explicitly to understand, whether the rectifier was to have a power of converting rum into gin ["No, no"]. If the rectifier was in effect to have that power, it would directly destroy the trade in the spirit called gin, which was at present made from corn grown in England.
Mr. Bright
thought it would not be advisable, at the present moment, to press for the reduction of duties; but as to the suggestion, that sugar should be admitted into the distilleries when barley reached a certain price, he thought it would be most desirable that it should be adopted, to show the attention of the House to the West-India interest, and to conciliate the feelings of those of the colonists who, from their great distress, might be apt to entertain feelings of irritation towards
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Mr. Frankland Lewis
thought, that every thing which the hon. gentleman who had just spoken had said about rum, applied with much greater force to gin. The hon. gentleman did not seem to be aware of the state of the countries he alluded to, in respect to the preference they now gave, or had given, to liquors; for gin, and not rum, had been the drink of Scotland at the period in question. The West-India interest need feel, however, no anxiety either about Ireland or Scotland. In Scotland, the consumption of rum was very little; and in Ireland whiskey was distilled to such an extent, that nothing was to be apprehended from a mere nominal reduction of duty. Let no one suppose that the whole duty of 5
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Mr. H. Sumner
said, he would give the motion his decided opposition, though he trusted that the hon. member for Aberdeen would be induced to withdraw it. Among all the classes of British subjects who had felt the pressure of agricultural distress, none had sustained a heavier burthen than the West-India colonists; and there was none with which he more sincerely sympathized. But as to the proposition, that sugar should be admitted into our distilleries when barley was at a certain price, and such as would open the ports to the importation of foreign corn, he really thought it might be a fair question, whether the benefit here suggested should be given to the sugar-planter or to the barley-grower. Of the two interests he should be disposed to give the preference to their own agriculturists, He concurred with an hon. gentleman opposite in thinking, that the West Indies could only by slow degrees be restored to their former prosperity; and therefore he hoped the House would not be led away by any prospect of immediate, but imaginary advantage to those colonies.
Mr. Robertson
expressed his belief, that no speedy relief would be afforded to the West-Indians, from the reduction of the duty on rum, on account of the great quantity now in bond.
Mr. Manning
thought the proposition for the admission of sugar into the distilleries, previously to the opening the ports to foreign barley, so clear that every one would assent to it. All that was contended for was, that sugar should come into
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Sir. I. Coffin
thought, that his majesty's ministers had shewn great liberality towards the West-India interest.
Mr. Whitmore
said, that in consequence of the situation in which our colonies in the West Indies were placed, and the important subject which was about to come under the consideration of the House, he did not think it prudent at the present moment to renew the motion which he had submitted to the House in the last session.
Mr. Hume
, in reply, contended, that the consumption of sugar in this country had by no means kept pace with what we had a right to expect. It had been said, that the West-Indians were likely to understand their own interest better than other persons; but he could not help thinking, that they laboured under a complete delusion with respect to the present question. There could be no doubt that the immediate effect of a reduction of the price of sugar would be a great increase of consumption; but, if the price were to rise, the consumption would necessarily be reduced, and the difficulties under which the West-India interest was labouring would be greatly increased. He contended, notwithstanding what had fallen from the hon. member for Taunton, that the reduction of these duties would operate a great relief to the West-India interest. But he had not brought forward the motion merely on account of the West-India interest. If they were determined not to receive relief, he did not wish to press it upon them; but, on behalf of the consumer—on behalf of the people of England—he felt it right to call for a reduction of these duties. The consumption of this commodity, instead of increasing with the increase of population, had remained nearly stationary during the last three years. He was quite aware that it was useless to press this measure, since those who were most in-
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Mr. A. Grant
said, that if, when the time arrived that it would be advisable to distil from sugar, the measure was not brought forward by his majesty's ministers, he trusted the hon. member for Aberdeen would himself originate it.
Mr. Gordon
said, it appeared very extraordinary that the West-Indians should have one and all opposed the motion of his hon. friend the member for Aberdeen. He had reason to believe that there was a secret understanding on this subject between the West-India interest and his majesty's government and as a West-Indian, he felt if, honest and right to state the fact. The bill granting a remission of 3
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The amendment was then withdrawn, and the original resolution was agreed to.
SILK TRADE.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the acts charging duties of customs on goods, wares, and merchandize, and for granting bounties on Linen and Silk manufactures exported,
Mr. Huskisson
spoke to the following effect:—Sir, although my right hon. friend, the chancellor of the Exchequer, when he brought forward his general view of the finances of the country, stated with a perspicuity peculiarly his own, the ground upon which it was his intention to propose a repeal of the duty on the importation of silk, yet, as strong objections have been taken to this part of my right hon. friend's plan, both in this House and out of doors, however unable I may be to follow in the steps of my right hon. friend, I trust I shall experience the indulgence of the committee, while I state, in his unavoidable absence, the views of the government on this important subject. I apprehend, that to the general plan proposed by my right hon. friend, two descriptions of objections have been taken in this House and out of doors. The first class of objections is, that it would be more desirable to make any relief from taxation which can be afforded, in the present state of the finances of the country, fall upon some direct taxes. The other class of objections is made by those persons who wish the laws relative to the trade in silk tore-main as they are. Now with respect to the first class of objections, I own it appears to me, that the course pursued by his majesty's government is, in the present state of our finances, and considered with reference to the various interests of the country, best calculated to advance those interests. In commencing measures of relief, his majesty's government felt the greatest anxiety, as it was their first duty, to afford relief to those humbler classes of society, which had been more immediately affected by the increase of taxation during the war on some articles of general consumption. The taxes on salt, malt, and leather, therefore, were those which the government thought it
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Mr. Baring
said, he must confess that the impression made on the committee by the speech of the right hon. gentleman was such as to render it a vain hope that any thing which he could himself offer would remove it. Still, however, he would declare that, with all the attention he could bestow upon the subject, and all the consideration he could give it, the impression which he before had, remained to that moment unshaken; namely, that the measure proposed by the right hon. gentleman was a dangerous experiment for the country. He would admit, at the same time, that nothing could be more candid and disinterested, than the course which his majesty's ministers had pursued. They undertook a great responsibility in what they proposed; and it was highly creditable to them not to shrink from that responsibility, when they thought that by incurring it, they had a fair opportunity of serving the public. He had himself a strong inclination towards the principle of free trade, properly understood; but the right hon. gentleman
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Mr. Wallace
said, it was satisfactory to find, that none of those gentlemen who opposed the measure called in question the principles on which it was founded. It was also a great satisfaction to him to find that it was chiefly opposed by gentlemen who represented places in which the silk trade was carried on, or which were connected with it; and such gentlemen, it might be supposed, were some what influenced by their constituents, who always foresaw danger in every measure which went to interfere with their monopoly. They were subject to alarm, and were frightened at every approach which was made to those privileges, within which they were intrenched. He did not blame them, for every man was bound to defend what he supposed to be his own interest; but this he thought should be a caution to the House not to be too ready to act on the alarms and apprehended dangers of the persons complaining. The House had begun to act on the principle of giving freedom of trade, not for the benefit of a few adventurers, but for the benefit of the country at large, and of all persons concerned in trade. In the measure proposed, the House would only be acting on principles which were found to be eminently advantageous in all other manufactures; and he did not know why
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Mr. Butterworth
suggested the propriety of extending the same assistance to the manufacturer, as was intended in the proposed plan to be given to the merchant, with respect to the stock on hand. There should be no difference as to the allowance of the drawbacks on the duties paid between either description, as, in his judgment, their claims to consideration stood upon equal grounds.
Mr. W. Peel
said, he was persuaded that the silk trade would feel fully satisfied with the proposition of government, as expressed in the statement of his right hon. friend. The remission of the duties on the raw silk would considerably increase, he had no doubt, the profits of the trade, without at all injuring the revenue.
Mr. Davenport
did not see any similarity between the manufacture of cotton
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Mr. Ellice
observed, that in discussing this question, the committee should recollect, that the experiment proposed was about to be made upon that branch of our manufacture, which was the least competent to bear a rivalry. Indeed, it was admitted by the right hon. gentlemen opposite, that we were inferior to that very nation, with which we were called upon to compete, both in machinery, labour, and the price of labour: in short, that we were, in every ingredient of the manufacture, at a considerable distance behind France. But, it was said, that there would be, in the duties left on the importation of the French silks, a sufficient protection against the smuggler. Now, that was what he denied. The great security against the smuggling these goods lay, not in the chance of capture at sea, but in the power of confiscating them after they had been introduced, and wherever they could be traced. Allow them once to be imported; let them once be permitted to be put in the shops of Dover; and nothing could prevent their circulation through every part of the kingdom. It was from the conviction, that it was impossible to give our manufacture that protection which was essential to its existence, that he opposed the proposition. Besides, the right hon. gentlemen opposite were not consistent with their own principles. They kept up a duty of 7
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Mr. Littleton
confessed, that his opinion on the question had been altered by what had fallen from the right hon. president of the Board of Trade. He thought it would be convenient, however, as a protection against smuggling, that every French piece of silk that was imported should be stamped at the Custom-house.
Mr. Ellice
put it once more to the right hon. gentleman, whether he would not give some assurance as to the immense manufactured stock on hand. That stock had been accumulated, the greater part of it, merely from a wish to keep the workmen in employ through the winter. The debate would go forth in a far more gratifying shape to the public, if some intimation were given that their just claims would be considered.
Mr. Whitmore
confessed, that with
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Mr. Hume
added his entreaties to those of his friends, that the right hon. gentleman would give some consideration to the grievance which must be suffered by those who had large stocks. He was not hostile to the measure of the chancellor of the Exchequer, but he had spoken with several merchants, who assured him that their losses would not be less than from 7,000
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Colonel Davies
urged the necessity of remitting the duties paid for stock on hand. If they were willing to allow a drawback on exports for the foreign market, why not also on the goods intended for home consumption?
Mr. Butterworth
thought that 7
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Mr. Haldimand
said, that there ought certainly to be an allowance for the stock on hand. The trade was generally conducted by highly respectable persons. There could be no difficulty in adjusting the drawback according to the real value. An oath might be administered in doubtful cases. It might be useful for the House to know in what light the French manufacturers looked upon this measure as it regarded their interests. The hon. gentleman then read a letter from a Lyons manufacturer, dated 24th February, in the original. But as there seemed to be some difficulty in the mode of communication, he proceeded to translate a few sentences. The letter imported, that the
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Mr. T. Wilson
thought that there had been so much of good will and such a spirit of conciliation shown by ministers in their endeavours to meet the views of all parties, that it would be best to withdraw any opposition, and trust to their considerate mode of conduct for some relief as to the duties already paid for stock on hand.
Mr. Philips
urged the necessity of taking off the duties from the dyeing materials.
Mr. Alderman Heygate
could not conceive what satisfaction the manufacturers were to derive from the postponement of two years and a quarter, which only put the danger off for that time. He trusted, however, that they would use the opportunity for preparing against the consequences, which would surely arrive at the end of that time. For his part, he protested against the proposition of free trade, unless they were prepared [hear, hear!]—he repeated it, he considered free trade, so called, as the greatest curse which could be inflicted on the country—unless they were prepared to go through with it by abolishing the corn laws; and that could not be done without endangering the very existence of the landed interest.
Mr. Huskisson
wished that he could see his way, in making an allowance for the stock on hand, which he confessed might, in strict equity, be necessary. But he had been informed, that the trade generally thought that the time to be allowed before the carrying of this measure into operation, would secure them from any considerable loss. He would concede thus much, that if upon consideration he could find out some mode of arrangement to meet that part of the sub-
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Mr. Ellice
, after the handsome assurance of the right hon. gentleman, that he would give some consideration to the question of duties paid for stock on hand, entreated his hon. friends to withdraw their opposition to the resolution: for, as the measure would then stand, the publishing of it out of doors would do good, and tend to conciliate all parties.
Mr. Haldimand
advised that there should be no division.
The resolution was then put and carried.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 9, 1824
CLERK OF PARLIAMENT.]
The Earl of Liverpool
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for the appointment of a select committee to inquire into the present state of the office of Clerk of Parliament, and into the best means of hereafter regulating it. It was not his intention, he said, to trouble their lordships with any observations. It would be the object of the committee to inquire into this office, with a view of putting it on a permanent footing. The committee would have some little conflicting interests to attend to, but there was no doubt it would do justice to all parties.
Earl Grosvenor
observed, that no immediate advantage to the public would arise from this measure; but their lordships must be aware, that a very considerable saving might take place on the decease of the person who now held the office. The noble earl then alluded to the office of Remembrancer of the Exchequer. Notwithstanding the regulation for the abolition of that office, a person had recently been appointed to it.
The Earl of Liverpool
reminded their lordships, that with respect to the offices of the Exchequer, the law which had been passed for their abolition authorized the Lords of the Treasury to make what regulations they thought necessary in them. This had been done as far as possible in these offices. With regard to the Remembrancer of the Exchequer, it had, been found necessary to put it on a new fooling; but before it should be finally regulated, it was the wish of the barons of the Exchequer to ascertain precisely what ought to be done with it, and for
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The motion was then agreed to.
APPELLATE JURISDICTION.]
Lord Calthorpe
said, he would take the opportunity of adverting to a subject in which the interest of the public, and the honour and dignity of their lordships' House were deeply concerned. He alluded to the new arrangement which had been made by their lordships for hearing appeals. This arrangement he had heard complained of within doors, and unsparingly censured out of doors, and not one word any where, either in doors or out of doors, in its favour except that it had promoted the convenience of their lordships. To him it appeared that this arrangement had done much to take from the country that confidence which it had once placed in the appellant jurisdiction of their lordships House. The first circumstance which, in his opinion, made this measure derogatory to their dignity was, that a commission had issued, naming the highest tribunal of the empire, to try causes in the absence of the highest judge. The whole arrangement was, in his lordship's opinion, a great error; inasmuch as it permitted an inferior judge to sit where only the highest judge of the land bad before presided. He was far from saying this with any wish to censure the learned lord who presided in the absence of the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, or in any way to depreciate his merits; but he could not have the high authority of the lord chancellor. The arrangement, besides created a great anomaly; which, though a temporary regulation had obviated it with regard to England, was in same measure true with regard to Scotland—the anomaly of bringing the decisions of a superior judge before an inferior judge, by appeal. This was the case with the Scotch courts, the decisions of which were brought for revisal before an individual inferior to the lord president in judicial authority, and which had never before been subjected but to the revision of the authority of the lord high chancellor. The arrangement was, in his opinion, therefore founded on a wrong principle, as far as regarded the presiding judge; and he thought it equally wrong as far as regarded the judicial colleagues of the learned lord who was to preside. Those noble lords were not brought here to at-
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The Earl of Liverpool
thought it necessary to offer a few words on the observations of the noble lord. Though the remarks which had fallen from the noble lord did not apply in any degree to the motion before their lordships, it was of some consequence that the first part of his lordship's speech should not pass without observation. The noble lord had chosen to attack the regulation with regard to appeals, which he had described as having nothing to recommend it but their lordships' convenience. Their lordships did not, however, need to be told, that that regulation was not adopted until after long and deliberate consideration. Complaints were numerous of the number of appeals which were undecided from all parts of the united kingdom, particularly from one part; and to remedy this and to do justice, was the motive for the regulation. It was not adopted from any summary view of the matter, nor out of deference to any individual opinion, but it arose out of the recommendation of a committee appointed by their lordships from both sides of the House; and a committee more divested of passion or prejudice it was not possible to select. There were in it some of the most distinguished members of their lordships' House, and some noble lords intimately connected with that part of the united kingdom from which the greatest number of appeals came. The plan adopted came recommended by that committee, and it was not adopted until after long and anxious consideration. The committee was not closed against any proposition which might originate either with their lordships or with other persons, and the plan which was adopted was the best that could be found to effect the object. The great object proposed to be attained by the regulation was, to do justice to the appellants, who called for the decision of the House on their cases, and more particularly to those of that part of the united kingdom in which the greatest arrear was found. There certainly was some difference of opinion as to the mode proposed in the committee,
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Lord Holland
agreed with the noble lord opposite, that the subject had at the time been fairly discussed; still he felt it incumbent on him, after what had fallen from the noble lord, to say a few words. It was true that the plan had not been adopted till after a long consideration; and, although he had not the honour to be a member of that committee which had been so deservedly eulogised by the noble lord, he believed it had fulfilled its functions with great zeal. In justice, however, to himself, and to the noble lord who had first addressed them, he must say, that when he came to consider the plan proposed, it did appear to him the most unparliamentary resolution that had ever, within his recollection, passed that House. It was more directed against the honour and dignity of parliament, than any proceeding adopted in his time. This was the first instance in which the House, acting as the highest tribunal in the country, had declared to the public, that justice was administered here by one man. This was the first time the House had been laid prostrate at the feet of learned lords, and the first time it had been announced, that all the other peers were mere cyphers, attending to make up a House. This was the first time that individual peers were to be regularly called on to discharge a duty which belonged to all. He did not object to the measure on account of any inconvenience to which it might subject noble lords, but he protested against the principle of calling on individual members to discharge the duty which was common to all their lordships. It was pregnant with destruction to them in their united capacity to act on a principle like this. For the measure, too, there seemed to be no other reason than conveniency. It was the
ratio suasoria,
ratio justifica.
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The Earl of Harrowby
said, that the noble lord who had last addressed their lordships had declared, now that the plan was adopted, that he would do what he could to make it palatable to the public, and yet he seemed by his speech anxious only to make it unpalatable. In point of practice, the system which the noble lords opposite condemned worked well; for since the short time it had been established nineteen causes had been disposed of. The only difference made by this regulation was, that the attendance of noble lords was no longer voluntary, which if it displeased those who were obliged to attend, saved the suitors who formerly came to the bar, and found no person to administer justice, a great deal of expense. The noble lord said, it was absurd for a peer to come during the middle of a cause; but this took place before, and would again take place, whether their lordships attended voluntarily or not. As to the observations made by the noble lord who brought on this discussion, of judgments being pronounced by an inferior judge, it was not to be expected that placing a man on the woolsack would inspire him with knowledge; and, though their lordships were accustomed to place high and deserved confidence in the noble and learned lord who had so long sat on the woolsack, it was not therefore a legitimate conclusion, that no other could be confided in. In fact also, it was not a novelty. For during the indisposition of the noble and learned lord, a commission had more than once issued, and causes had been decided there, under the presidency of persons whom the noble lord called, inferior judges. [The noble earl addressed the House at much greater length, but we were only able now and then to gather the meaning of a sentence].
The Earl of Darnley
wished to direct the attention of the House to that part of the noble lord's speech who had first addresssed them, which referred to the proceedings of their lordships in their legislative capacity. He had frequently called the attention of their lordships to this subject, and entreated them to wipe off this stain. Some method, he thought,
837
The motion was agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 9, 1824
EDUCATION OF CATHOLIC POOR
Mr. Grattan
rose to present a petition from the Catholic Bishops and Clergy of Ireland, signed most respectably by men of exemplary piety and learning. They allege, that the funds appropriated by parliament to the Education of the Poor in Ireland amount to a very large sum; but they complain that from the manner they are regulated in their distribution, the practice is at variance with the principles of the roman catholic religion. The indiscriminate use of the Bible in the schools, which is uniformly insisted upon, is what these petitioners allege to be opposed to their doctrine. Their impression was, that as a very great proportion of the Irish poor are catholics, the education of their own poor ought to be under the superintendance of the Catholic clergy; and, consequently, a proportion of the charitable funds at their disposal. These funds, it would be recollected, amounted to 70,000
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838
Mr. Goulburn
said, that as there would occur future opportunities for the discussion of the points referred to in the petition, he should at present express his entire dissent from the principle laid down by the petitioners, namely, that a separate fund should be set aside for the education of the Irish catholic poor. Heretofore it was considered by the hon. gentleman who introduced the petition, and by those with whom he generally acted, that the great object of such exertions should be to correct, as far as it was possible, the many causes that led to separation and disunion in Ireland, and to substitute principles of union and conciliation, in their place. On what grounds the new view taken that night by the hon. gentleman was founded, he was at a loss to discover; but he felt that he was fortified by the repeated declarations in that House, that such a system of separation would never be sanctioned. Was it pretended that the Kildare Association refused grants to the catholic schools? No such a charge, he was convinced, could be established. The only restriction in the issue of such grants was, that the Scriptures should be read in such schools without note or comment. That was the only restriction; and it had been sanctioned over and over again by the voice of parliament. Where there were so many points of doctrine on which the protestants and catholics differed, surely it was of importance to fix on one main principle in which all christians agreed. Was it pretended that the catholics of Ireland were unwilling to avail themselves of these grants? The returns gave the answer to such a charge. Let the House look at the state of Ireland
839
Sir J. Newport
lamented that this petition had been presented before the whole subject had been investigated by a committee. So long ago as June last, he had moved for a variety of papers, illustrative of the subject. To that motion no return had been made, and on the 9th of last month he had renewed his motion; when it was ordered by the House, that the papers should be furnished forthwith. This neglect in complying with the orders of the House, was extremely culpable. His object, in moving for the papers in the last session was, that they might be ready at the commencement of the present, to be communicated to a committee for the purpose of investigating the whole merits of the case. After an inquiry such as that to which he had alluded, it appeared to him that it might be very practicable to place the subject on a footing satisfactory and conciliatory to both parties; but he deprecated any discussion of the question, until such an inquiry had been completed. The Catholic body complained that they had not any part in the management of the funds in question. The trustees of Maynooth college were of both persuasions; why, therefore, might not the managers of these funds be so too? He trusted that both parties would moderate their temper, allay their prejudices, and approach one another in a way calculated to diffuse the blessings of education throughout the country.
Mr. Dawson
objected to the form of the petition, and to the Catholic bishops of Ireland considering themselves as a Corporation. With respect to education in Ireland, it was increasing among all classes, Catholic and Protestant. Tracing the operations of the Kildare-street Society, in that respect, he stated, that in 1773 there were in the west and southwest parts of Ireland but eight schools; that in 1816 there were 800; and that now in 1824, there were 1,122. When the subject came to be discussed, it would be proved incontestibly, that of all the institutions of a similar kind in Ireland which had received the assistance of parliament, there was not one so deserving as the Kildare-street Society.
840
Mr. J. Smith
concurred in strongly recommending the furtherance of the objects of the Kildare-street Society.
Mr. Plunkett
observed, that whatever difference of opinion might exist with regard to the form of the petition, all persons must agree in the great respectability of the petitioners, and that their wishes must always be entitled to the utmost attention. On the subject of form, however, he thought his hon. friend behind him mistaken. It was clear to him that the petitioners did not assume any corporate character. They merely called themselves "the undersigned Roman Catholic Bishops." Now, the fact was, that a Catholic bishop in Ireland was as much a bishop as a Protestant bishop. He was a bishop of the Christian Church. He was competent to confer ordination. Nay, were any one of them to conform to the Protestant faith, he would instantly become a bishop of the Protestant church. One word as to the facts of the case. The opinions which had been expressed by the hon. members for Waterford and Midhurst were entirely his own. He entirely agreed also in some of the allegations of the petition. He agreed in the great importance of education, and he agreed in the still greater importance of making religious instruction the basis of all education. Every other notion on the subject was chimerical and impracticable. To make education rest on a moral basis alone, was not only useless but absolutely pernicious. Nothing, however, was, in his opinion, more to be deprecated than the separation of the schools in Ireland. But, if the union of morals and religion was to be converted into an instrument of proselytism, that was another question. How far that had been attempted, would be a fit subject for inquiry; as well as how far it might be practicable to separate the moral from the religious instruction in the same school.
Mr. Abercromby
observed, that if he were asked whether he approved the system of reading the Bible in these schools without note or comment, he should answer "Yes." Great good had been effected where this was the practice; especially in the south of Ireland. It was extremely perilous, however, to allow the subject to become a matter of public discussion under the present circumstances; and therefore, without, of course, ascribing the slightest blame to the presentation of the petition, he regretted that it had been
841
Mr. V. Fitzgerald
also regretted that the subject had been brought before the House, before means had been adopted to acquire the best information respecting it. He denied, however, what had fallen from an hon. gentleman opposite respecting it. He would state what had taken place in two of the counties of Ireland, almost exclusively Catholic; he meant Limerick and Cork. In 1817, the number of schools in these two counties was three. They increased progressively, until last year they amounted to 108. In other parts of Ireland he knew that there had not only been no partiality in the establishment or administration of the schools in question, but that even Catholics did not believe that there was; for within these few days he had received an application from two Catholic priests, soliciting aid for the establishment of schools of a similar nature. Of course they had no suspicion of any design of proselytising their flocks or they would have felt it their duty to resist such establishments. The fact was, however, that many persons were deceived with respect to the objects of the Kildare-street Association. To show the benefits which that association had conferred on Ireland, he would refer to two reports from the commissioners of education in Ireland. The first of those reports showed what was formerly the exclusive study of the lower orders in Ireland who had been taught to read. It stated, that the most productive, but at the same time flagitious articles of traffic, were cheap editions of publications of the vilest nature, calculated to pollute and degrade the minds of the people, instead of tending to their improvement and civilization. They had, in fact, therefore, become more corrupt as they became more instructed, and had degenerated into worse citizens, subjects, and men. By the second of the reports of the commission to which he had alluded, it appeared, that the Kildare-street Society, by printing and circulating cheap works of another character, had, to use their own expression,
842
Mr. Dominick Browne
said, he could not agree with his right hon. friend the member for Waterford, in objecting to the discretion of the Roman Catholic bishops in presenting this petition. He thought it much better that the whole truth should be told relative to Ireland, than that we should be too discreet in our discussions relative to that country. The Roman Catholic bishops, if they thought the education of their communicants should be always combined with religious instruction, were right in declaring their sentiments honestly to parliament. Whether he (Mr. B. agreed with them or not, was of little importance, but he did not think their opinions were at all different from the promoters of the exclusive system in England, called the National System. The Kildare-street Society had certainly done a great deal of good, but not one thousandth part the good they would have done, had they not insisted, as a
sine qua non
Mr. Secretary Peel
expressed his great satisfaction, that on this important question all parties were agreed in principle.
843
Mr. C. Grant
said, he did not mean to express his approbation of the whole of the conduct of the association, whose exertions had been so frequently referred to: he was, notwithstanding, well satisfied that the charge of proselytism was not one that could be fairly brought against it. He contended, that the society had shown a great degree of liberality in permitting the reading of the scriptures in the Roman catholic version.
844
845
846
847
Ordered to lie on the table.
CATHOLIC CHARITIES.]
Sir H. Parnell
said, he had presented a petition in the last session, from the Catholic Archbishops of Ireland, complaining of restrictions imposed, by the existing laws, upon endowing and building school-houses,
848
849
SILK TRADE.]
Mr. Huskisson
Mr. Baring
said, he did not mean to oppose the bringing up the report. This declaration must not, however, be attributed to any alteration in his opinion, but to that due deference which he felt for the opinion of the House, of which he certainly must say, he never witnessed a more decided expression than on last evening. He was, therefore, bound to presume that he was wrong, and that parliament was right; and that none of those evils would ensue which his apprehensions for the interest of the silk trade had induced him to entertain. He nevertheless trusted, that sufficient time would be allowed for a full examination of the details of the measure.
Mr. Huskisson
said, he felt much obliged to his hon. friend for the candid manner in which he had stated his intentions with regard to the future progress of the measure. He was not anxious for greater expedition than would be necessary to give all parties concerned the proposed relief at the earliest possible period. It was with this view that he wished the resolution to be now brought up, in order that the bill might be brought in as speedily as might be.
Mr. Baring
was aware that if these duties were to be taken off, it was important to proceed with their remission as soon as possible; but he thought that much difficulty would be found in dealing with the drawback to be allowed upon the stock on hand. Perhaps the parties would be better satisfied if government proceeded by degrees with this experiment, rather than remit the duty at once.
Mr. Hume
thought that the principles which had been laid down by every intelligent man connected with trade, who had spoken to this subject, were such as left no doubt of the policy which his majesty's ministers were in this instance pursuing. He could not concur, therefore, with his hon. friend, in considering the measure in question a mere experiment.
850
Mr. Ellice
said, he was satisfied that government was disposed to settle this question fairly, which would best be done out of doors, without a discussion in that House; and he thought he might safety state, that if justice were done to the parties interested by a return of the bounties on their stock, they would instantly resume their wonted occupations.
Sir H. Parnell
wished to have it understood, that the proposed arrangement of duties on thrown silk, and foreign silk goods should not be considered as a final settlement of them. The duty of 7
s
d
851
Mr. Alderman Wood
gave credit to ministers for a desire to meet all the difficulties of this subject; but feared that many would be encountered in dealing with the stocks on hand.
The report was then brought up, and the resolutions were agreed to.
TITHES COMPOSITION BILL.]
Mr. Goulburn
rose, pursuant to notice, to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend the Tithes Composition act of last session. He never had expected that that measure could at once have been rendered so perfect, as to supersede the necessity of future amendment. No one, therefore, could now be surprised that he took the earliest opportunity of submitting to the consideration of the House, such amendments as, in his judgment, the measure required, and which, he trusted, would, in their progress, give to it greater and, ultimately, complete efficacy. At the same time he thought it right to state, that from time to time, it might hereafter be necessary to submit still farther amendments, until at last the moment arrived, when he should be enabled to introduce a measure, which would carry into full effect the object and intention of parliament. The measure of last year had been open to a variety of objections. It was met by two classes of objectors; one of whom was adverse to the entire principle, and the other, though admitting the wisdom of the principle, disagreed with regard to the details. As to those who were altogether opposed to the principle of the measure, he saw no occasion to address himself to them; for parliament had pronounced an opinion, that some measure for the composition of tithes in Ireland was necessary. He had carefully examined all the objections that had been raised against the introduction of the measure; and, after full and mature consideration, he saw no reason to alter his opinion, that the principle of commutation of tithes for a limited time was essentially just: experience had abundantly proved, that the measure in its operation was practicable, and justice on the one hand, and policy on the other, required that he should stand forward, from time to time to submit such alterations as seemed likely to render the measure more perfect. He had now to deal with the second class of objectors; namely, those who admitted the truth of the principle, but disliked the details of the measure. These
852
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854
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Sir J. Newport
suggested, across the table, that the mere statement of the rate per acre, without specifying the value of the land, would afford very little information. In some parishes of the diocese of Cashel, the land was very good; but in others it was exceedingly poor.
Mr. Goulburn
said, that undoubtedly he should have wished to state the value of the land, and he should take the earliest opportunity of obtaining the information. But when they found that in 51 parishes, taken without any selection, except that the first desired to take the benefit of the act, the rate of composition was so extremely small, there was a
prima facie
855
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857
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858
d
Mr. Grattan
thought it was premature to talk of amending the act of last session, as they were as yet entirely ignorant of the operation of that act. When they were told that the act had been carried into effect in 250 parishes, he begged to state that it could not yet have been put into operation in any one. The commissioners had indeed, they were told, sent in a number of certificates, but these were merely certificates of the agreement; the rate remained to be assessed on the individual tithe-payers, and to be levied; and until; the House saw the operation carried through in some one parish they had no ground of judging as to the merits of the bill. He had taken some trouble with the bill, in its progress through the House, and had subsequently, endeavoured to put it into operation in Ireland; and as what the House wanted was practical knowledge on the subject, he should state what had taken place at two vestries which he had attended. Of the first vestry he had attended he was chosen chairman. His first business, therefore, was, of course, to attempt to explain the object and nature of the bill; but he found this was a hopeless task, for of the whole vestry, which was composed of about twenty persons, there were not two who could understand two lines of it; and this he believed would be found to be the case generally throughout Ireland. He had then resorted to the right hon. gentleman's circular letter, in which they were directed to an admirable clause, which had found its way into the bill by accident. The rector being present the vestry were afraid to say any thing before him, as to the value of the parish. No one would speak, It was then suggested, that the rector should state what sum he would
859
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Mr. Hume
did not find himself informed by the statement of the right hon. gentleman, of the real nature of the alterations proposed; but he was convinced that by this sort of legislation no good would be done to Ireland. The real remedy for the evil was to break up the Church establishment in Ireland. Nothing else would be effectual [hear! hear!]. The members of the established church in Ireland were but as one out of fourteen, and they made the other thirteen pay for the support of their church. The government would do well to follow the example that had been set them in other countries, and to remove this source of irritation. They
860
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that if the present were a motion for the Speaker leaving the chair, for the purpose of going into a committee, there might be some ground for the opposition of the hon. member for Aberdeen; but really there was not the slightest pretence for that opposition, when it was considered, that this was merely a motion for leave to bring in the bill. As to the documents which had been moved for relative to this subject, his right hon. friend was as anxious as the hon. member for Aberdeen could be, that the House should be put in possession of every information, and that those documents should be laid on the table before this measure was discussed. He should feel that he was fighting with a shadow, if he contended for one moment with such an argument as that which had been brought forward by the hon. member for Aberdeen. If his right hon. friend had deferred moving for leave to bring in this bill to a later period of the session, the hon. gentleman opposite would have been one of the first to object to the measure, on the ground of its not having; been brought early enough before the House. The present motion would pledge no man to any opinion on the merits of the bill: there would be ample opportunity hereafter for considering its details; and he should be wasting the time of the House, if he said any thing in reply to the opposition which had been made to so fair and reasonable a proposition. With respect to the observations which had fallen from the hon. member for Wicklow,
861
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
CLERK OF THE ORDNANCE.]
The report of the Committee of Supply was brought up. On the first resolution being read,
Mr. Calcraft
observed, that the salary of the Clerk of the Ordnance was very inadequate to the labours he had to discharge, and to the rank and station of the individual; for the office was generally filled by a member of parliament. As he had formerly filled the office, he knew that the time of the Clerk of the Ordnance was wholly employed; and he thought the present salary, which was under 1,000
l
Mr. Secretary Peel
thought, without any reference to the comparative claims of the secretaries of the Treasury and Admiralty, that this subject was well worthy of the attention of his majesty's government. He was not, of course, prepared to give any assurance on the subject, as such an arrangement did not rest with him personally, but he repeated, that the subject deserved consideration.
Mr. Hume
trusted that as the right hon. gentleman expressed his readiness to increase the salary of an officer in the Ordnance department, because the duties of the office were too heavy for the salary, he would also be ready to reduce the salaries of some other officers in the same department whose salaries were too heavy for their duties.
BARRACK DEPARTMENT.]
On the resolution "That 114,531
l
862
Mr. Hobhouse
observed, that the hon. and gallant officer opposite was mistaken, when he had contended, the other night, that the system of Barracks was recognised by the petition of rights. Complaints were made, indeed, at the period to which the hon. and gallant officer adverted, of the billeting of soldiers, on the people, but there were no such thing as a standing army at that time. The barrack system had long ago been decided against, as a novel and unconstitutional mode of lodging a standing army. That system was calculated, perhaps, to turn out a finer soldier for the parade—a living machine, more likely to pay prompt and implicit obedience to his officers; but he was sure the hon. and gallant officer, who was not less an excellent citizen, than an honourable soldier, did not wish to make a mere automaton of a soldier, or to perpetuate a system which separated the character of the soldier and the citizen. Long before the existence of the barrack system, our soldiers had distinguished themselves by victories, as splendid as any which had since been obtained. The soldier who mixed freely with his countrymen might not make so good a machine for the parade, but he was a better man, and a better citizen. The union of the characters of the soldier and the citizen had been strongly insisted upon by our ablest constitutional writers. The gallant officer had told them the other night, and perhaps he could not be blamed for doing so, when surrounded with such applauders, that the people of England had themselves called for barracks throughout the kingdom. In support of that opinion he had quoted the bill of rights, but the bill of rights only denounced the quartering of soldiers on the people as a grievance. How, then, could the gallant officer, in mirth or in seriousness, as an argument, or as a piece of waggery, interpret such a declaration into a preference of the barrack to the billeting system? If he was anxious to ascertain the feeling of the people of England on the subject, let him look both to the practice of our ancestors, and to the sentiments entertained at the present day; or, rather, let him confess, that the system owed its support to those alone who maintained the necessity of arming one portion of the people against the rest. If there existed no other use in the motion with which he should conclude,
863
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Sir H. Hardinge
said, that with regard to the constitutional question he would take the advice of the hon. gentleman, and avoid it altogether, as it had been sufficiently discussed on a former occasion. He would undertake, however, to shew how the barrack system came to be so generally extended. It was well known, that various petitions had been presented, from time to time, praying for relief from the billeting system, which, at the breaking out of the revolutionary war, was resorted to as an act of necessity. In 1803, when the war broke out again, government deemed it advisable to send troops to the coast, as a means of providing against invasion. It was impossible to provide the troops so employed with quarters at the public-houses in those districts, and various petitions against it were again forwarded to parliament. Accordingly it was determined, in order to relieve the people from the inconvenience of the billeting system, that several barracks should be built within those districts. Government could not, therefore, be charged with having built those barracks in opposition to the liberties of the subject, since they were for the protection of the country, and in compliance with the desire of the people themselves. Besides, the number of these barracks had been greatly diminished since the peace. The hon. gentleman had stated the intention of the government to erect barracks at Charing-cross, as one of his reasons for opposing the vote; but whatever might eventually be done upon that subject, he was not himself apprised of any intention to convert the Kings Mews into barracks for the soldiery. The Board of Ordnance, in met, had no power to decide the question, though he would confess that, in his opinion, such a change would be attended with great advantage. He would oppose this single fact to all the reasoning of the hon. gentleman—that before the revolutionary war, all the soldiery in London were
865
Mr. Hume
contended that the arguments of the gallant officer were not applicable to the present state of the country. He had described a state of expected invasion but we were now at peace, and consequently exempted from the necessity upon which he had rested his defence of the system. A man did not cease to be a citizen when he became a soldier, and should not be regarded as a mere automaton, to be moved only by the will of his commanding officer. If they wished to keep the soldiers separate from the people, that was no reason why they should multiply barracks through the town. They might remove them from the houses of the people. The sum called for by this grant was monstrous, and the object of it was, to maintain a military despotism. For these reasons he should vote for the amendment of his hon. friend.
The amendment was negatived without a division.
CATTLE ILL-TREATMENT BILL.]
Mr. R. Martin having moved, that the House do resolve itself into a committee on this bill,
Mr. Hume
said, he had hitherto taken no part against the hon. member's mea-
866
The Attorney-general
rose to second the amendment. The present bill, he said appeared to him to be vexatious and every way unnecessary. The definition of the offence in the bill which the hon. member for Galway had introduced last year was the wilful ill-treatment of horses and cattle. He understood, however, that the object of the present bill was to render the ill-treatment of those animals, arising from inadvertence and negligence, a misdemeanour. There was one clause of the bill which, in charity to the framer, he hoped would be withdrawn. He alluded to the clause which authorized any individual to apprehend a person in the act of ill-treating cattle. He knew from the zeal which the hon. member had heretofore displayed in the cause of humanity, that not a week would elapse before he would be forced into some desperate conflict in attempting to enforce the law. He remembered that the hon. member had been extremely anxious to introduce the word "bull" into the bill of last year. After a long discussion, however, the bull was rejected by a large majority. The
867
Mr. W. Smith
was convinced that the bill of his hon. friend, ridiculed as it had been, had already conferred great benefit upon the community. He conceived the object of the present bill to be a good one, and was therefore disposed to go into the committee upon it.
Mr. R. Martin
said, he was not uninformed, that the hon. member for Aberdeen intended to shew him up. He would say further, that the hon. member for Aberdeen would not shew up the honourable man who represented the county of Galway, unless he had the license of the latter for so doing. With respect to bull-baiting the learned attorney-general had his (Mr. M's) two guineas in his pocket, and had given it as his opinion, that a bull was entitled to legal protection.
Dr. Lushington
considered the present bill to be a necessary adjunct to the act of the last year; the effect of which act was, that the public feeling was no longer shocked with those atrocities which had so long disgraced the national character. Lord Erskine had, years ago, endeavoured without success, to provide that remedy, which it was the happier lot of the hon. member for Galway to effect.
Mr. Wynn
said, he should oppose the measure for the reasons which had led him to oppose the existing act of the horn* member for Galway.
Mr. Buxton
said, he should cordially support the motion. He had asked a friend what effect the bill of last year had produced, and the answer was, that it had put an end to half the cruelty which formerly prevailed in the country.
Mr. Warre
said, it had been stated that the cases which measures of this kind brought before magistrates were in general of so doubtful a character, that it was a chance whether conviction would or would not take place. Now, he denied this to be the fact; for an overwhelming majority of the cases recently prosecuted were of so atrocious a character, that con-
868
Mr. Alderman Bridges
adverted to the shocking barbarities which were every day practised on cattle, and said, that there never was a measure of more humanity than the one now proposed by the hon. member for Galway. He briefly pointed out the evil effects which an habitual practice of tormenting animals, or seeing them tormented, produced on the mind, and illustrated his proposition by an allusion to Hogarth, whose hero, commenced his progress in cruelty with tying a canister to a dog's tail, and ended it by committing murder.
Mr. Goulburn
objected to the bill, on account of the great disproportion would it would establish between punishment and crime, and in which he saw an attempt to proceed still further in the march of penalty. The bill of last session had, it was said, effected much good; but, because it did not do all that the hon. member contemplated, he now came forward, and called on the House to tolerate a most disproportionate punishment, by making the offence a misdemeanour, at the discretion of the magistrate.
Mr. G. Bankes
expressed his anxiety to go into a committee, where the House would have an opportunity of examining all the details of the measure. He must object most strongly to the spirit of levity with which the question had been treated, and the sort of
argumentum ad hominem
Mr. Huskisson
spoke against the bill. The House, he said, was now required to increase the punishment for this offence, although the hon. member for Galway had shown that this was not necessary. The hon. member had himself stated to the House, that, generally, when he obtained a conviction, he paid the penalty himself, the persons accused being mostly too poor to pay it. This, surely, proved, that the present bill was sufficiently severe.
Mr. W. Courtenay
objected to going
869
The House then divided, when there appeared: For going into the committee 11. Against it 19. There being only thirty members present, the House, of course, adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 10, 1824
SILK TRADE.]
Mr. Ellice
rose to present a petition from the Ribbon-weavers and Silk-manufacturers of Coventry, against the proposed alteration in the laws relative to the Silk Manufacture. The petition had, he said, been in his hands some days, but had not been previously presented, through mistake. He presented it now for the purpose of availing himself of the opportunity of stating, that the leading men in the trade had received an explanation from the Treasury that morning, which gave them the most complete satisfaction. Those of Coventry had already left town with the determination of putting all their people into immediate active employment.
Mr. Ellice
repeated, that the deputation of silk manufacturers from the country, who had waited on the chancellor of the Exchequer on this subject, had returned home perfectly satisfied, and had considered themselves very liberally dealt with by his majesty's government. There was to be a meeting of silk manufacturers of the city of London that day, for the purpose of pressing on government, and on parliament, a further extension of time. Knowing what he did of the temper of the House, he had recommended the parties to desist from any such application; lest, should the matter be again brought under consideration, a curtailment, instead of an extension of time, should be the consequence. He
870
Mr. Huskisson
observed, that undoubtedly he did not conceive that any proposition for a further extension of time would be favourably received by the House. In his own opinion, the time which had been granted, was not at all called for; but he had ceded it, in deference to the feelings of the parties interested, and with a view to conciliate, as much as possible, those who thought their interests might suffer by the measure.
Mr. Alderman Wood
said, that some of the smaller dealers were under apprehension lest their goods must go through the hands of the great manufacturers.
Mr. Huskisson
replied, that every thing would be done that could be done to facilitate the matter. The goods would be received in parcels, and there would be only such precautions used as were necessary to ascertain that they were really new.
The resolution was agreed to.
SURVEY AND VALUATION OF IRELAND.]
Mr. Spring Rice
said, he rose to move two resolutions; the one declaratory of the expediency and necessity of a new Survey and Valuation of Ireland, the other for the appointment of a select committee on the subject. It would not be necessary for him to detain the House long, as he understood there was no intention to oppose his motion. In fact, when an hon. friend of his gave notice of this motion for him, he was not aware that there was a sum in the estimates for the year to be applied to the very purpose of carrying such a survey into effect. He was glad to find that his majesty's government thought with him on the subject; and, so far would his motion be from interfering with their intentions, that he hoped it would prove in cordial unison with them. It was indispensable that an affair of such magnitude should be first considered in all its details by a select committee of that House.
Mr. Dawson
expressed his perfect concurrence in the hon. gentleman's views, and his hope that the whole subject would be fully and satisfactorily discussed. For himself, he was particularly interested in it; for he represented a county which had
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Colonel Trench
strongly recommended that the new surveys should be made under the direction of the Board of Ordnance. They would then be executed by men of science, and would be uniform and satisfactory.
Sir J. Newport
expatiated on the evils of the present system, but was of opinion, that if the surveys were executed by the Ordnance, they would take too much time, and when completed would not be sufficient for the required purpose.
Mr. D. Browne
, as an instance of the inaccuracy of the present surveys, mentioned that a gentleman of the name of M. Farlan had surveyed the county of Mayo, when it was covered with snow.
Mr. Goulburn
thought an Ordnance survey a necessary preliminary. An accurate map of the country would be an excellent foundation for further proceedings. The committee, however, would be the place in which this and all other matters of detail might be most advantageously discussed.
The resolution was then agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, May 11, 1824
AUSTRIAN LOAN BILL.]
On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill,
Lord Holland
rose to make a few observations on this measure. He said, he was certainly ready to acknowledge, and had already acknowledged, that though the sum received on this transaction was much less than the sum that was due, yet that it was much more than the country, or the humble individual now addressing their lordships, ever expected would be paid by the imperial debtor. He must therefore acknowledge, that much ability appeared to have been employed in bringing this transaction to its present conclusion. There was, probably, also much exercise of good temper in the manner of conducting the negotiation; for as it was to be presumed there was some good feeling in the imperial character, it was
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pagus
pagorum populi vectigalia premuntur
pacio
paciscor
pacare
pecus
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"How charming is divine philosophy!
Not harsh and crabbed, as dull fools suppose,
But musical as is Apollo's lute,
And a perpetual feast of nectar'd sweets,
Where no crude surfeit reigns."
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The Earl of Liverpool
was free to acknowledge, that the noble lord had been very entertaining in the first part of his speech. After attending, however, to it very closely, he could not clearly discover what the noble lord's object was. When the noble lord gave notice of his intention to call the consideration of the House to this bill, it appeared that he had in view to object to the phraseology of it, as not sufficiently describing what was meant to be enacted. Now no person could suppose that it would be proper to draw up such a bill as the present, in a very offensive manner to one of the parties. But, what more could be done
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Lord King
objected strongly to the preamble of the bill, since it did not mention the sum received from Austria as being the payment of a debt. Without such an acknowledgment in direct terms, the clause in the preamble was unintelligible. Nobody could certainly deny, that we had advanced money to the government of Austria under a promise of repayment, and that this was our only return. What else was necessary to constitute a debt? It had been said, that our money had been expended in Wars; but, for whose advantage were those wars carried on? For the advantage of the emperor of Austria. It was true the emperor had not succeeded in those wars: but that was not our fault. It however showed, that the emperor had then made the same kind of
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The Earl of Aberdeen
said, that in rising to make a few observations on the question, he would refrain from noticing the speech of the noble lord who spoke last, which, was of too facetious a nature to require an answer. He was however prepared to defend the court of Vienna from any imputation of bad faith or dishonest feeling in the present transaction. The loan for which we were now paid the 2,500,000
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Lord Clifden
observed, that part of the money which we lent to the emperor of Austria had found its way into the pockets of Napoleon. The fashion seemed now to be to compliment the emperor of Austria; but if he was to credit the account
885
Lord Ellenborough
said, he thought the emperor an absolute angel, compared with the rest of the Holy Alliance. He was the only member of that alliance on whom we could place confidence. Adverting to the commission to be appointed to superintend the expenditure of the money to be granted for public buildings, the noble lord asked if it was to be a parliamentary commission, or one appointed by the Crown?
The Earl of Liverpool
said, that the duties of the commission might be settled by parliament, and the names be filled up by the Crown.
Lord Ellenborough
hoped the commissioners would be named by act of parliament. He was glad to see an increasing jealousy directed towards the expenditure of parliamentary grants.
The bill was read a third time, and passed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 11, 1824
RIBBON MEN AND RIBBON LODGES.]
Lord Althorp
rose to submit to the House the motion of which he had given notice. If he succeeded in the attainment of his object, it would, he said, enable the House to determine what measures would be the most likely to restore quiet to that disturbed country. It would be recollected that the tumult which prevailed in 1820 had broke out in Galway, and had speedily extended itself through Mayo. The disturbances were attributable to what was called the system of Ribbon-men. They ran so high, that an hon. friend of his, the member for Galway, had found it necessary to move himself for the renewal of the insurrection act, and that the powers of the act should be extended to that county. The consequences were, numerous trials and convictions, with some executions.
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Mr. Goulburn
said, he must oppose the noble lord's motion, because, although it was only for the production of papers, yet every one must see, that the real object was to censure the Irish government. He
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Mr. Abercromby
agreed with the right hon. gentleman, that if the proposition made to the government of Ireland were such as he represented, the government were right in not acceding to it. The only point between them was, that the right hon. gentleman would not give the House the means of judging as to the exact terms of the proposition made. Let the right hon. gentleman, shew the House what the proposition was "No, I will not," said the right hon. gentleman, "but I call on the House to vote in the absence of that evidence." Now, before he could assent to the proposal of the right hon. gentleman, he must have the evidence before him. The application that had been made to government, was, he had reason to believe, without qualification or condition of any kind. The right hon. gentleman shook his head. There was, then a difference between them as to a matter of fact; which was, in his opinion, a reason for producing the evidence, which would put an end to that difference. He knew that his noble friend had seen the correspondence in question; and he was justified in saying that he had seen the answer of Mr. Gregory, the under-secretary; there did not appear on the face of it any condition or qualification. If the government had any other proposition made to them, containing the qualifications and conditions which the right hon. gentleman alleged, certainly they had acted wisely in not conceding any thing. But why not enable the House to form a fair judgment? Where could be the evil of producing the correspondence? Why should the government withhold papers which, according to the right hon. gentleman, would bring the government of Ireland triumphant out of the discussion? There were, in fact, two distinct statements made; the first was made by Mr. Bennett the barrister; the proposition was, after some time repeated, and the reply returned by Mr. Gregory was, that he was still without any authority from the lord lieutenant to return any answer from the government. The proposition, it was clear, did not appear a monstrous
890
Mr. Plunkett
said, he rose to notice some observations which had fallen from the noble mover, and from his hon. and learned friend. He did not pretend to be so well acquainted with the usages of parliament as they were; but, if he did not mistake it was not a matter of course that papers should be produced; in order to see if something might not be found in them, that would warrant a charge against government. Such a motion ought to rest at least on prima facie evidence, that the papers did contain matter sufficient to induce the House to question the conduct of the government? But, he would ask the House whether, in any thing that had fallen from the noble lord, there was any rational ground for presuming that the correspondence contained matter which would authorise an inquiry into the conduct of the government? He could not suffer the charge that had been made to pass by without bearing his testimony to the fact, that it was utterly impossible that there could exist in the breast of any man anxiety more intense or more sincere, than existed in the breast of the noble marquis at the head of the Irish government, to find out even an excuse to extend the mercy of the government in every case which could admit of it; but, in the case in question, mercy could not be extended consistently with the due administration of justice and the claims of the loyal and the well disposed part of the community. The persons who had been convicted were, in the opinion of the law
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Mr. R. Martin
said, that a proclamation of amnesty was distributed in his county, at the Catholic chapels by the Catholic clergymen. He could not agree to the motion, because he did not see that it would be productive of any good. Even taking the statement of the noble lord for granted, there was no ground for laying the correspondence on the table.
Lord Althorp
rose to reply. He said, that a copy of the correspondence in question had certainly been put into his hands. In that correspondence he saw no condition, no qualification whatever;
894
"Sir; I have a communication to make for the information of his excellency the lord lieutenant, relative to the illegal society of persons styling themselves Ribbon-men, of the county and city of Dublin. Do me the honour to acquaint me when and to whom this communication is to be made I have &c.
"R. N. BENNETT."
"Sir; I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 18th instant, which has been submitted to the Lord Lieutenant; and I am directed to acquaint you, that if you wilt be so good to commit to writing any communication on the subject to which you allude, and transmit it to me, it shall be immediately brought under his Excellency's consideration, I have, &c.
"W. GREGORY."
"Sir; I have the honour to acknowledge your letter of the 18th instant, requiring me to commit to writing the communication to which I alluded in that letter, and which I had to make on behalf of the Ribbon-men of the county and city of Dublin.—Having frequently been employed for them as counsel, I made use of the opportunities thus afforded me, to endeavour to ascertain the real objects of that society. I was assured, that the principle of their union was wholly defensive against the Orange party. They informed me, that the Ribbon system commenced in Armagh, where outrages of a very sanguinary character were alleged to have been committed against the Catholics, by the
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"R. N. B."
"My dear Sir; a number of persons from different parts of the country, in addition to those we mentioned to you, have called on us to know what has been done relative to the proposition you made to Mr. Gregory, last week? We beg leave to state, that they are most anxious to carry that proposition into effect. We request that you will endeavour to obtain the answer of Government as soon as possible. With best wishes, yours, &c.
"A. LUBE. W. GORE."
"February 28, 1823.
"Sir,—Not having had the honour of receiving any answer to my communication of the 24th [this should have been 22] inst. relative to the Ribbon-men, and great anxiety having been expressed by these people for the determination of Government thereon, I think it my duty to call your attention to the inclosed letter from the clergymen to whom I before alluded. "R. N. B."
"To W. Gregory, Esq. &c."
"Dublin Castle, March 3, 1823.
"Sir,—I submitted your letters of the 24th and 28th ult, relative to the Ribbon-men, to the lord lieutenant, and whenever I receive his excellency's commands, I shall not fail to communicate them to you.—I have the honour &c.
"W. GREGORY."
"To R. N. Bennett, Esq. &c. &c."
"March, 1823.
"May it please your excellency from the moment that counsellor Bennett communicated to us the gratifying hope that it might meet your Excellency's benevolent views to extend your mercy, and bring under our most gracious sovereign's
897
"A. LUBIE. W. GORE.
"To his Excellency, &c. &c. &c."
July 16, 1823.
"Sir—On the 24th (22nd), and 28th February last, I had the honour of submitting through you a communication to the lord lieutenant, from the Ribbon-men, and on the 3rd of March you informed me that whenever you received his Excellency's commands on this subject, you would communicate them to me. Having received no answer after such a lapse of time, I am apprehensive that this matter (under the pressure of important affairs) may have escaped his Excellency's recollection; I therefore beg leave to request you will call the lord lieutenant's attention to the subject, and acquaint me whether it is the pleasure of government to give any answer to the application of the Ribbon-men. Though they were ex-
898
"R. N. BENNETT.
"To Wm. Gregory, esq."
"Dublin Castle, July 22, 1823.
"Sir;—I submitted your letter of the 16th instant to the lord lieutenant, and have not any commands from his Excellency to return an answer. I have, &c.
"W. GREGORY.
"R. N. Bennett, esq."
Mr. Grey Bennet
said, he did not think that the right hon. gentleman and his friends on the other side, were aware that his noble friend was in possession of the correspondence; if they were aware of it, he did not think that what had passed that evening would have occurred. It was clear, that there was not a word in the papers which bad been read to the House respecting any conditions or qualifications whatever. Where the right; hon. gentleman obtained his information, it was difficult to ascertain; but did he mean to say that the documents referred to by his noble friend were not correct? Would the government of Ireland consent to bring forward further information? If not, it would show, that there was something to be kept in the back ground, and without the production of which the House ought not to be satisfied. It had never fallen to his lot to bear a more
899
Mr. Hutchinson
said, he was very sensible of the advantages which Ireland had reaped from the able and persevering efforts of distinguished individuals immediately connected with England. He considered this circumstance a most fortunate omen for Ireland; and when persons of the rank, weight, character, and talent of the noble lord, devoted themselves to the discussion of questions of so much difficulty and importance, the result must be happy for the country whose cause he advocated. He felt himself in a distressing situation with regard to the present motion; for as he was convinced in his heart, that the noble lord had only the most enlightened and the best intentions he felt pained to be under the necessity of resisting it. He should not, however discharge his duty, if he supported the proposition. He did not think that the noble lord had made out any sufficient case for the production of the papers, and believed, that if the motion were carried, it would be injurious to the best interests of Ireland. As an Irishman, he had little reason to be well satisfied with the marquis of Wellesley; at least, his sanguine expectations as to what would be accomplished by his administration had been greatly disappointed: therefore, on this occasion he did not appear as the advocate of the Irish government, though he was bound not to allow false impressions to go abroad as to its measures. He was satisfied that in this case the Irish government had acted rightly; for he knew enough of the state of Ireland to be satisfied, that nothing could have been more unwise than for the lord lieutenant to capitulate with persons of such a description. When they came forward, talking of their arms, and boasting of their numbers, and when one of their leaders had been found guilty by an impartial jury, the government of Ireland would have compromised not only its own dignity, but the safety of the state, if it had at all listened to the terms alluded to in the papers. If he had been asked, he should have given his advice for that course which the government had most properly followed. He hoped the noble lord would not persist in pressing the House to a division.
Mr. Secretary Peel
observed, that though the noble mover had made what was usually considered the concluding speech, yet the hon. member for Shrewsbury had subsequently drawn an infer-
900
Lord Althorp.
—I have never seen it.
Mr. Peel.
—Doubtless that was ample reason for the noble lord's not stating any thing about it to the House; but it was an equally ample reason for his (Mr. P's.) now bringing it to their notice. Mr. Luke Plunkett, on the 24th of February, stated, "that he had made it his business to see Hughes in gaol, after he had been convicted; that he saw him in the presence of the gaoler; and that he undertook to hold out some hopes of mercy to him on the part of government, if he would become the instrument of his associates giving up their arms; or, if not of giving up their arms, of inducing the leaders to come forward and submit," In
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The gallery was then cleared for a division; but none took place, and the motion was negatived.
GAME LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.]
On the order of the day for the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Stuart Wortley
said, that if the House allowed the bill to go to a committee, he should supply two omissions, by introducing a clause respecting persons coursing, and another protecting the rights
903
Sir John Shelley
rose to give this measure his decided opposition. There were, he said, only two good grounds that could be assigned for repealing the old law, and substituting another in its place: it must be shown, either that the existing law was unjust and oppressive, or that it was inefficient For the purposes with which it had been enacted. Now, no one could deny that whenever any evils arose in the nation, whether real or imaginary, the right of petitioning parliament for a remedy was always resorted to. Had not the table of that House, for instance, groaned, session after session, beneath petitions for reform—petitions for relief from agricultural distress—petitions for remission of taxation, and a hundred other objects? But, inasmuch as, within his own knowledge, there had not been one single petition presented to that House against the existing Game laws, he was justified in assuming that those laws were not oppressive. It had been said, that this was a modified measure; but, let honourable gentlemen be assured, that if the barrier that now subsisted were once passed, it would be utterly impossible for them ever to return to the point from whence they had set out. Another bill after this, and another still stronger, would, in successive sessions of parliament, be introduced; until, at length, all restrictions would be done away with. He must be allowed very much to doubt, whether either his hon. friend (Mr. S. Wortley), or those other hon. members who were among the zealous supporters of this new measure, would be prepared to go this length. A law must be bad that was founded, as this would be, upon partial, or upon impracticable principles. An act of parliament might be passed for the general preservation of the game throughout the kingdom; but, how could it be possible to pass a law, intended to give a property in an animal which, by nature, defied all human control, and could never in that sense become property? He maintained, that they might as well bring in a law to limit and regulate the migration of woodcocks as one that should establish a right of property in the birds themselves. What property could there be in that which in the space of twelve hours might change its habitation four-and-twenty times? His hon. friend wished to assimilate the Game
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Mr. W. Peel
rose to second the amendment, and expressed his opinion, that the making game private property was fraught with many difficulties. He was surprised that his hon. friend, the member for Yorkshire, who was so little of a reformer in general, should have disposed in so radical a manner of the Game laws, by a bill which would annihilate all the Game laws in the country. Some gentlemen were so sanguine as to suppose that this bill would
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Mr. C. Ross
said, that if he thought the bill tended to diminish the legitimate influence possessed by the country gentlemen over the lower classes, he should be one of its warmest opposers; but if it tended, as he believed it would do, to increase that influence, by removing one of the main causes of irritation, it was well worthy the attention of the House. The hon. baronet had inferred, that the Game laws were popular, because there had been no petitions against them: Now this was a most unfounded inference. It was unfortunately true, that the Game laws were very generally obnoxious; and that an habitual violation of the law in the case of poaching, as of smuggling, had ceased to excite moral reprobation. The legislature had had recourse to severe penalties against it; bill after bill had been brought in to prevent game from being sold, but without effect; and the question now was, not whether game should be sold or not, but whether they should legalize and render innoxious that traffic, which they found they could not prevent—whether it was not advisable to authorize that to be done, by law, which was now done in spite of all law? Considerable doubts had been expressed by some gentlemen, as to the correctness of the evidences that had been given before the committee last year, as to the extent of the sale of game; and he confessed that he himself had felt some suspicions as to its accuracy. But he had taken the trouble to examine the books of some of the poulterers, and he found the statements to the fullest extent confirmed. He had extracted from the books of one, by no means of the principal sellers, the numbers of game he had supplied, and the names of the persons to whom they were supplied. He found in one day he had supplied 100 head; in another, 135; in another, 228; in another 101, and so on. The books he had examined were made up previously to the parliamentary inquiry on the subject; so that there was no room
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Mr. Lockhart
said, that when it was asserted that the Game laws were unpopular, he should like to know with what class they were unpopular; for certain he was, that he had heard more said against them in that House than he had in any other place. They were unpopular with the poachers, and never would be otherwise; but with other classes they were far from being unpopular. The bill before them was, they were told, to unite all classes of the people. He should be glad to know how this could be; for he never saw a bill more calculated to be unpopular, one that more rashly took away existing rights—or supported its provisions by more tyrannical and unconstitutional means. In the first place, without discussing the principle of making game property, or legalising the sale of it—he might observe that the first enactment of the bill was, to sweep away all qualifications at a blow. There had been objections to the principle of qualification; but, he did not hold vested rights in general, or qua-
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arrondissement
communis juris
Mr. Secretary Peel
said:—As this bill, Sir, provides for an evil which I consider to be one of great magnitude in the present state of society, I mean the legal prohibition of the sale of game, I shall certainly give my vote for it, reserving to
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Mr. Ridley Colburne
thought that the expectation of underselling poachers by a repeal of the present law would not be realised. Pheasants and hares were already sold by poachers at two shillings, and partridges at six-pence each. As to the argument, that people would prefer dealing with the legal trader to buying their game of poachers, this was a distinction, with respect to property in animals feræ naturæ, which was not likely to enter the heads of purchasers. The remedy proposed was, he thought, of an extremely doubtful nature, as it would establish a legal market for the sale of game, without ascertaining the means by which the market was to be supplied.
Mr. Benett
, of Wilts, said, he was so disgusted with the present state of the laws respecting game, that he Was prepared to consent to any change, conceiving that it must be one for the better. No man in England was fonder than he was of country amusements, and of foxhunting in particular; and, if he thought that the bill would have the effect of abolishing that sport, he would most stre-
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Lord Milton
said, that the hon. member who had just sat down had expressed his disgust with the present system of the Game laws to be so strong, that any change must be an improvement. Now, he apprehended, that the general cause of that disgust arose from the enormous quantity of crime which they engendered. The great object of the House should be to diminish crime; and to this purpose all other considerations should yield. He thought the hon. baronet, the member for Lewes, attached too much importance to other considerations, such as the inducements to country gentlemen to reside on their estates. He was one of those who doubted very much whether those gentlemen were the most serviceable in their respective neighbourhoods, whose chief occupation and pleasure consisted in shoot-
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Sir M. W. Ridley
said, he was not prepared to go to the whole extent of the bill; but, at all events, it was clear to him it would have the effect of doing that which had excited so much attention; namely, to diminish poaching; and would besides put the system upon something of an intelligible footing. It was obvious, that the amazing increase of game in this country, had increased the practice of poaching; and it was equally clear, that there must have been an increased demand for the article, or there would not have been such an increased supply. And, did not daily experience prove, that when a commodity of any description could be had by fair and honest means, it would find a much more ready and steady market? The receiver of stolen goods was not the first person to whom a purchaser would resort for any article he might require; but, if he was prevented by law from purchasing the article, then, as in the case of game, he would go to a person of that description. The article would not fail to reach those who had money to purchase it, and it was absurd to think of preventing it by legislative enactments. It had been stated by the hon. member for Oxford, that it was a peculiar hardship not to extend the right of qualification to lawyers, divines, and the heads of corporations. But, by this bill, the House gave them a great deal more; for they gave the learned doctors, both of law and divinity, as well as the right worshipful mayors of corporations, the power of eating that lawfully, which before was illegal diet; and, in his judgment, the lawyers, and doctors, and heads of corporations, would be much better pleased at receiving the privilege of eating game than of shooting it according to law [a laugh]. By legalising the sale of game, poaching would lose much of its inducement; and although he would not say it would destroy it in the first or second year, still, in that space of time, it would, he was convinced, considerably diminish the practice; and, by so doing, the House would remove a most disgraceful statute, and destroy a most prolific source of immorality. An hon. gentleman had asked, by whom were the Game laws called unpopular? He would ask in return, by whom were they styled
923
Mr. Stuart Wortley
replied. He said, that the object which he had in view in introducing this important measure was, if possible, to satisfy the minds of the majority of the people of England, who saw nothing in the present laws but injustice. Questions of this sort ought always to be considered with reference to some general principle; and, if game must belong to some one, reasoning from analogy, in whom ought that right of property to be vested? As the law now stood, the right of property was given to those who had no power over the land in which the game might happen to be. It had been said, that this right should belong to the lord of the manor; but this bill would regulate the matter in what he considered the fair and ordinary course, for it would confer the right of game on those who held possession of the land on which the game was found; and he thought that when a man disposed of his land, the regulation of the right of game was a fair matter of bargain between the owner and the occupier of the land. It had been urged, amongst other things, that he would endanger his popularity with his constituents, by the introduction of this measure. On that subject, he could only say, that he had too good an opinion of the understandings of his constituents, to suppose that this bill would render him unpopular amongst them. If he should incur unpopularity he should certainly lament it; but his rule of conduct in that House, and elsewhere, had been, to do what he conceived to be his duty, and trust to the consequences. But, in fact, what was it he proposed to do? It was to give to every man in England, no matter how humble his condition, the right of shooting, wherever he was allowed. It had been objected to him, that he would take away vested rights; and an hon. friend had complained of the hardship of not extending qualifi-
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The House divided: For the second reading 105. Against it 37. Majority 68.
WELSH JUDICATURE BILL.]
Mr. Jones having moved the second reading of this bill,
Mr. Allen
described the proposed measure as being trifling in its remedy, and likely to be most pernicious in its effects. The defect of the existing system was, that it was opposed to the due administration of justice. The evil of the present jurisdiction arose from the extraordinary number of the Welsh judges, and the want of employment for them. He had a strong objection to the intermediate employment of the Welsh judges as counsel, and to their liability to form personal connexions, as agents to noblemen and others, which must derogate from the dignity of the judicial situation. He also thought, that so far as property was concerned, one great evil was, the difficulty of procuring special juries, a privilege only to be obtained by motion in open court, and then, when the assizes in some places lasted only two days, it was impossible to summon the special jurors within the time required by the law. The hon. and learned member entered into a technical statement of the different duties that attached to the judges in the principality of Wales, as at present constituted. He said, he should recommend that the courts of Westminster-hall should be thrown open to Wales, as it was to the people of England, and that the decisions of the courts of the principal^ should be open to revision. He would get rid altogether of those vagrant courts of chancery, which were only employed in injunctions and discoveries,
927
Mr. Jones
defended the principle of the bill, and contended, that its provisions would be extremely salutary. He maintained that the courts of chancery in Wales, instead of being an evil, were the best part of the local jurisdiction. There was not a single county in Wales in favour of the abolition.
Sir C. Cole
approved highly of part of the bill, but thought that the principle of it was not carried far enough. The same reasons which were deemed sufficient to disqualify the judges of England from sitting and voting in that House, surely ought to be sufficient to disqualify the judges of Wales also. If any member would move a clause disqualifying the Welsh judges from sitting in that House, he would give it his cordial support.
Mr. Wynn
was of opinion, that the best thing that could happen to Wales, would be the abolition of the present jurisdiction, with a view to assimilate the Welsh jurisdiction to that of England; but that could not be accomplished without many concurrent measures. The English judges had quite enough to do at present; and it would be bad economy to appoint two judges, who would only have to officiate for six weeks in the year, and that too in a particular part of the kingdom. He was anxious that the bill should proceed to a committee.
The House then divided. For the amendment 19; against it 42 Majority, 23. The bill was then read a second time.
List of the Minority.
Althorp, visc.
Monck, J. B.
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Russell, lord J.
Buxton, T. F.
Rice, T. S.
Cromptom, S.
Sykes, D.
Evans, W.
Smith, J.
Grattan, J.
Smith, R.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Webb, col.
James, W.
Whitmore, W. W.
Kennedy, T. F.
TELLERS.
Lamb, hon. G.
Allen, J. H.
Lennard, T. B.
Hume, J.
MUTINY BILL—FLOGGING.]
The report of the committee on this bill being brought up,
Mr. Sykes
rose to express his strong abhorrence of the practice of military
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929
Colonel Dawkins
said, that he was not in the House at the time when the hon. member for Westminster (Mr. Hobhouse) had brought forward his charges against the regiment to which he had the honour to belong; but, as they had been again referred to, and as they had already appeared in print, he was anxious to say a word or two regarding them on the present occasion. In the first place, he must inform the House, that in the seven battalions of Foot Guards, corporal punishment was scarcely ever inflicted: and, in the next place, that the regimental returns proved beyond all controversy, that in the last twelve months only one man had been flogged in the King's Mews. What, then, became of the stories which had been industriously circulated, regarding the frequent punishments which took place in those barracks, and which were described as so distressing to the ears and minds of the neighbouring inhabitants? In the battalion of Grenadier Guards which had been stationed there for the last six months, there had been only one instance of corporal punishment; and in the battalion of Coldstream Guards to which he had the honour to belong, and which had been there for the six months previous, there had been no instance of corporal punishment whatever [hear, hear]. With regard to the statement of the hon. member for Aberdeen, that when a soldier was
930
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Mr. Hume
contended, that the diminution in the number of military floggings was not so much owing to the regulations of the duke of York, as to the exertions of his honourable friend the member for Westminster (sir Francis Burdett). It appeared to him to be a contradiction in terms, to congratulate the country on the diminution of corporal punishments in the army, and yet to say, that the army could not exist in a state of discipline without it. With regard to the pay of the soldiers under punishment, he would merely ask one question. Was it, or was it not paid into the stock-purse of the regiment? The noble lord opposite had said, that it was so paid; if it was not, he (Mr. H.) was not to blame for the mistake which he had committed.
Sir H. Hardinge
also referred to and denied what the hon. member for Westminster (Mr. Hobhouse) had said, on a former debate on this bill, that the cries of the soldiers flogged in the Mews-barracks had been drowned in the roll of the drums. The fact was, that, during the last year, only one instance of the kind had occurred, and that flogging was abolished in the Guards, excepting under very extraordinary circumstances. With regard to the contemptible charge which had been made upon the officers of the Guards, and that too in no very delicate terms, for the pay of the men was said to have gone into "the pockets of the officers," [hear, hear]—with regard to that contemptible charge, he, too, must be permitted to say a few words. He did not suppose that it had originated with the hon. member for Aberdeen; he had doubtles received it from some slanderous
931
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Mr. J. Smith
deprecated the attachment to cruel punishments which prevailed in this country. If they turned their eyes towards France, they would find thirty millions of people governed by law, without any flogging, torture, or personal suffering, except the brand on the shoulder. As they went through the streets of Paris, they might see men undergoing the operation of being branded, without any manifestation of pain; the mark being made, he believed, with some sort of corrosive liquid. It was certainly in our power to improve our own system
932
Sir H. Hardinge
said, it was rather unfortunate for the position of the hon. gentleman, that the
reveille
Mr. J. Smith
knew nothing of the facts-. He only stated what he believed his hen. friend had said.
Mr. Bennet
said, that a representation similar to that of his hon. friend, the member for Westminster, had been made to him last year.
Colonel Townshend
said, it had been customary formerly, to beat the drum in the morning. But, without any application from the inhabitants, and merely from a spontaneous anxiety for their comfort, for the last six months the
reveille
933
Mr. R. Martin
defended the vote he had given on a former night, in favour of the bill, as it stood. It was admitted on all sides, that the practice of flogging was very much diminished. This was owing to the exertions of the commander-in-chief, who had always expressed it as his opinion, that when the custom of inflicting corporal punishment prevailed to any great extent in a regiment, the discipline of that regiment must be bad. He would not vote for taking away the power of inflicting that species of punishment where it appeared to be necessary. He thought it was much better to leave the business in the hands of the commander-in-chief, who would deal with it as his kindness and humanity dictated.
Lord Palmerston
said, that his sentiments had been mistaken on one or two points. He was supposed to have said, that this privilege of flogging was a necessary prerogative of the Crown. He had not made any such observation. His position was, that the legislature had recognized the king as the head of the army and navy; that to him was intrusted the sole command and government of the forces by sea and land; and that therefore it rested with the Crown to determine by what code of laws those bodies could be best governed. The hon. member for Nottingham had argued, that corporal punishment was peculiarly unfit for persons reared in the manufacturing districts, because in general they had received some degree of education: but it should be observed, that where large masses of people were collected together in the manufacturing districts, they had not the same simplicity and innocence of manners, which distinguished the agricultural part of the population; and that therefore punishment was more likely to be deserved by the former than by the latter class. He knew that the best proof of the good order and discipline of a regiment was to be found in the infrequency of corporal punishment. Let it, however, be recollected, that he had never contended for frequency of punishment, but had merely argued for the propriety of asserting the power. Much praise had been bestowed on the French army, which, it
934
Mr. Hobhouse
observed, that what he had said on a former night was, that it was represented to him that when corporal punishment was inflicted at the barracks, the drums were beaten to prevent the cries of the sufferer from being heard; On that occasion, a gallant officer had expressed his surprise by gesture, and he (Mr. H.) had said, across the table, "not lately." He had been told, that the noise of drums in the morning alarmed the inhabitants, who thought that they were beaten during the infliction of corporal punishment. Such had been their impression; though, no doubt, from what had been said, they were mistaken. The alarm, however, which had been excited in the neighbourhood of the King's Mews, proved that the place selected for barracks was a very unfit one. On one occasion, most certainly, corporal punishment had taken place. It was seen from the tops of the houses; and the story, greatly exaggerated he supposed, immediately got abroad. The consequence was, that whenever the drums were beaten afterwards, it was supposed that an infliction of corporal punishment was going on, and that the sound of the drums was introduced to prevent the cries of the soldiery from being distinguished. With respect to the observations which had fallen from the noble lord on the subject of the retreat of the French army, he thought the circumstance scarcely justified them. It was, he ought to remember, a beaten army, without stores or provisions, and which was obliged to supply its wants by any means that chanced to present themselves. But, what was the case with the British army in the retreat under sir John Moore?
935
Sir A. Hope
did not understand his noble friend to say, that the use of the lash was necessary. He had merely argued, that it was proper, for the discipline of the army, that the power of inflicting punishment should exist.
The report was agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Friday, March, 12, 1824
SURVEY OF IRELAND.]
The Marquis of Downshire
took the opportunity of addressing a few words to their lordships, on a subject of great importance connected with Ireland. Their lordships attention could not, he thought, be too often drawn to that country; and he would himself lose no opportunity of bringing it before them. He understood that it was intended to have such a trigonometrical survey as had been made of England, extended to Ireland, under the direction of the noble duke at the head of the Ordnance. He was fully sensible of the vatne of this measure; but he was convinced it would not answer the expectations which existed in Ireland respecting it, if some more minute measurement was not added to the trigonometrical survey. What was wanted for Ireland, in addition to fixing the latitude and longitude of its different capes and headlands, was an admeasurement, acre by acre, of all the counties, parishes, and town-lands in the kingdom. If such an admeasurement were conducted by persons of probity
936
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 12, 1824
REMISSION OF TAXES—SINKING FUND
Mr. Hobhouse
said, he rose to present a Petition from the inhabitants of the city of Westminster, on a subject of vital importance to the prosperity and eventual power of this country. These petitioners alleged, that they found from statements made in that House by the ministers of the Crown, that there remained, after meeting the wasteful expenditure of 1823, a surplus revenue of nearly seven millions. Now, the great proportion of that surplus was appropriated to that most fallacious and ruinous project the sinking fund—if fund at all was not a most improper application of the term. In place of relieving or upholding the public resources, its immediate tendency was, to depress the spirits and property of the country at large. Let it not, however, be presumed, that it operated, in any manner, to increase the public strength. That money taken out in taxes from the capital of the nation would, if left in the pockets of this industrious and enterprising people, increase in a manifold degree. These petitioners feared and they feared justly, that this unnatural and unnecessary demand on the people, instead of enabling us, in the event of war, to meet the emergency, would exhaust
937
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938
Mr. Robertson
expressed his utter dissent from the opinions of the petitioners, and of the hon. gentleman, respecting the sinking fund. Under what more favourable circumstances could parliament expect to commence the reduction of the national debt than those at present existing? Were they to go on interminably without making any attempt at its diminution? The sinking fund, he was persuaded, was in the highest degree beneficial to the country and was the main cause of all the commercial activity from which such advantages might justly be anticipated. Were parliament to consent to the abolition of this fund, they would show themselves utterly unworthy of the confidence of the country.
Mr. Hume
said, he could not conceive that the hon. gentleman had correctly heard the object of the petition. Whatever the hon. gentleman might think of the sinking fund, he would assert, and when the time came, if the hon. gentle-
939
Mr. John Smith
said, it was undoubtedly true, as stated in the petition, that this country paid above three millions in taxes to carry on the government of Ireland; and it was equally true, that the people of Ireland were incapable of paying that sum for themselves. It appeared to him, therefore, to be incumbent on parliament to inquire into the cause of so extraordinary a circumstance. So long as the present difference of opinion on matters of religion existed in that country, and the consequent disturbances were to be apprehended, people who had capital, which they might and which they would advantageously employ in Ireland, were deterred from making any such experiment. It was his sincere opinion, that until that House adopted measures cal-
940
Sir J. Newport
said, he should be extremely sorry if any one could for a moment suppose, that the circumstance of Ireland not paying the whole expense of her government arose from any other cause than her inability to pay it. Additional taxes had frequently been imposed on the people of that country, but they had as frequently failed. Indeed, it appeared that the greater the number and amount of the taxes the less was the produce of the revenue. From the year 1807, to the year 1816, different finance ministers had imposed new taxes, amounting nominally to four millions; yet, the fact was, that at the end of that period the produce of the revenue was actually half a million less than at the beginning. It was impossible, indeed, that any fiscal measure in Ireland could be immediately productive. The state in which Ireland was, had not grown out of the occurrences of the last thirty or forty years. It was the result of centuries of misgovernment. It was impossible, therefore, that evils of such long standing could be suddenly remedied. If the present were the last words he should ever speak, he would state, that there would be no peace for Ireland—no happiness for the empire—until religious opinions were put on an equality, by doing what he had again and again and again stated must be done; namely, rendering persons of every religious persuasion in that country eligible to share in all its civil rights. He did not mean to say that any particular class should be preferred, but that all classes should be rendered eligible, and that thus
941
The petition was then brought up and read as follows:—
The Petition of the undersigned Inhabitants of the City and Liberty of Westminster
"Sheweth, That your petitioners have seen a statement, which they have been informed and believe was laid before your honourable House on the 12th day of February, 1824, as follows, viz.:—
"Total nett income and expenditure of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in the year ending 5th Jan. 1824.
"Income paid into the Exchequer
£
s
d
57,672,999
8
4½
"Expenditure
50,962,014.
17
11¼
"Leaving a surplus paid into the Exchequer over and above expenditure of
6,710,984
10
5¼
"Whence it appears, that the people have been taxed to the amount of nearly seven millions sterling more than was necessary to meet the current, and as they are satisfied, wasteful, expenditure of the year 1823.
"Your petitioners have also heard and believe, that five millions of the surplus, thus raised by taxes and imposts on the people, is intended to be paid in discharge of the public debt, to which your petitioners beg leave to object, believing as they do, that if the money were left in the pockets of the people, instead of being taken out by tax-gatherers, it would be more usefully and productively employed than in paying off debt. That paying off debt, contracted in large masses, by driblets, is merely making a show to no beneficial purpose whatever, while the people are compelled to pay the same amount of taxes whether small portions of the debt be paid or not.
"That although 5,000,000
l
"Your petitioners have seen statements
942
"Your petitioners therefore pray, that your honourable House will take the allegations contained in this petition into your most serious consideration, and will be pleased to remit taxes equal in amount to the surplus of revenue above expenditure; and further, that your honourable House will also be pleased to remit taxes from those levied on the people of Great Britain, equal in amount to the sum paid by Great Britain on account of Ireland, over and above the amount of revenue raised in Ireland."
Mr. Hobhouse
, on moving that the petition be printed, observed, that he had had the petition three nights in his hand, but had not seen any of his majesty's ministers in the House before five o'clock, the hour by which petitions must be presented. He certainly agreed with his hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, on the importance of the petition, relating, as it did, to the remission of taxation. Since he had made his motion, for the repeal of the window-tax, he had received numerous letters pressing the necessity of urging it.
943
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l
The petition was ordered to be printed.
LINEN BOUNTIES.]
Colonel Trench
Mr. Brownlow
hoped that the chancellor of the Exchequer would consider the expediency of delaying the repeal of the linen bounties until the month of July, 1825.
Mr. Maberly
could assure the right hon. gentleman opposite, that owing to the circumstance of his not having duly considered the propriety and expediency of repealing the bounties upon the linen trade before he had come down to the House the other evening with his proposition upon that subject, he had occasioned, in some parts of the kingdom, very great inconvenience and distress. He had no hesitation in saying, that in consequence of the right hon. gentleman's exposition of his plan for rescinding the bounties allowed upon Irish linensr—which bounties upon the low-priced linens amounted to 20 per cent OH the value—upwards of 40,000 hands had been suddenly thrown out of employ. He mentioned this fact only to show the chancellor of the Exche-
944
s
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, there could be no objection to grant the returns which had been moved for, but he had really no idea that any such motion was to be made, and had still less anticipated the discussion it had occasioned. If the right hon. gentleman wished him to give any answer to his observations upon the proposed alteration respecting the linen bounties, he would observe that that answer would most properly be given in the committee; in which those hon. gentlemen who were not satisfied with the intended arrangements would be enabled to state the grounds of their dissent. For himself, he would confess, that at present he was hardly prepared to go into the subject.
The motion was agreed to.
IBISH BANKERS.]
Sir H. Parnell
rose to present a petition, signed by several wealthy and respectable merchants and
945
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
certainly considered the subject to which the petition pointed, as well deserving that serious attention which he for one was disposed to give to it.
Sir J. Newport
thought that the House might not be aware of the nature of that act; for it was an Irish one, passed before the statute known as the "Bankers' act." The consequence of this was, that two distinct codes prevailed in one kingdom, in respect of bankers. He need only mention one clause of the act of George 2nd. to show how necessary was the revision of the law upon this subject. It was enacted, that no person intending to trade as a banker should be enabled to make any settlement upon his son or his daughter, his grandson, or his grand daughter, even for a valuable consideration; but that all such settlements should be absolutely null and void.
Mr. Irving
thought that no subject could be taken into consideration the result of which would be more likely to prove beneficial to Ireland, than the propriety of making an alteration in the laws affecting bankers in that country.
Ordered to lie on the table.
ANNUAL DUTIES BILL.—FOREIGN
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Annual Duties bill,
Colonel Davies
said, that it might be convenient, if he brought forward his amendment, to alter the duty on Foreign Brandy and Spirits, in the first instance. It affected a large portion of the population, and he felt satisfied, that if the imposts were considerably lowered, the revenue arising from them would be so
946
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After a few words from the chairman as to the form of the amendment,
949
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it seemed to him, that the hon. member did not clearly understand the nature of the bill before the House. It was a bill to renew an act which would expire on the 24th of March, which act was a continuation of another, granting certain duties for one year. The duties now in question were increased in 1807, as war duties. They had been modified in 1815, and since then had been continued from year to year. The present bill did not specific the amount of the duties; it only went to continue the original act, in which they were detailed. He did not see, therefore, how the hon. member's object could be answered, by moving for the reduction of a specific duty, when the amount of that duty was not mentioned in the body of the bill to which his motion was to be an amendment. The best way in which the hon. member could shape his motion would be, to call upon the House for the repeal of so much of the duty permanently. It was this feeling which, on a former evening had made him suggest that a similar mode should be pursued with respect to the duties on rum. It appeared to him, that it would be very difficult for the hon. member to accomplish his object in the way he proposed; and he did not see how he could assist hiin.—He would now say a word or two on the motion itself. He admitted that the duty on foreign spirits was very high; but he thought the present time was not the proper one for making any deduction in them, for such reduction must operate to the prejudice of the manufacturers of British spirit. It might, perhaps, be said, that it would be well to make a reduction in the duties on British spirits also. Perhaps it might be so; but that, it would not be denied, was a great question: and it would not be wise to go into it now, until we had seen the effect of the reductions which had been made in the duty on spirits in Ireland and Scotland. No man, he thought, would deny that it was desirable to have the duties on ardent spirits as high as they could be safely collected. In a moral point of view, there were questions connected with it, into which he would not then enter, but the discussion of which would show the dangerous effects of too free an access to the use of ardent spirits among the people. Besides, the loss to the revenue, from both reductions, would be more than could at present be spared. The hon. member had said,
950
s
d
Mr. Hume
said, that on the chancellor of the Exchequer's own principle, he ought to go further than he now professed himself willing to go. He had already made a reduction of three shillings per gallon on Scotch spirits, and a reduction also upon Irish spirits; and, as far as the result of that measure was already ascertained, it was found to be most favourable to the revenue. The amount of revenue derived from it was, in the last quarter, 50,000
l
951
952
Colonel Davies
denied that the British distillers would be endangered by the moderate reduction which he had proposed on foreign spirits. The question, as it regarded the morals of the people, had been ably argued by his hon. friend. He did not believe that one gallon more of spirits would be drunk in consequence of the reduction of duties. As to the observation of the chancellor of the Exchequer, that his proposition did not go far enough, he should be perfectly ready to agree to any further reduction to which the right hon. gentleman might be disposed to consent. As his object in bringing forward this motion was to promote the discussion of the question, and that object had, to a certain extent, been attained, he should not press his amendment to a division.
Mr. Bennet
trusted, that ere long the right hon. gentleman would remove the evils arising from the anomaly of one system of laws being acted upon in Scotland and Ireland, and another in this country. With respect to the moral effect of the measure, he was satisfied that taxation was a principal cause of the abuse of ardent spirits. In wine countries it was generally observed, that there was no abuse in the consumption of wine; but, in those countries where the governments, by a system of taxation, rendered wine or spirits difficult to be obtained by the consumer, abuses of these commodities universally arose. He denied, in toto, that the reduction of the
953
Mr. Kennedy
bore testimony to the value of the measure which had been acceded to last session by the chancellor of the Exchequer, and expressed a hope that the right hon. gentleman would, as soon as possible, extend its benefits to the whole empire. He wished to say a few words with respect to the monopoly of distillation in Scotland. There were only five distilleries at work in Scotland for the whole English market. This was a monopoly of a most injurious kind. He would state a single fact to show the inordinate extent to which it was carried. One large set of works was now idle, and the owners of those works had received 15,000
l
The bill then passed the committee.
DOMINICA.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Lushington moved, "That 600
l
Mr. Hume
said, he could not understand why She island of Dominica should not pay its own chief justice; for the 600
l
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that if the hon. member would refer to the correspondence which had taken place between lord Bathurst and the principal civil colonial officers which had been printed and laid upon the table of the House in March, 1821, he would there find a statement of the reasons which had induced ministers to call upon the House for the present grant. Ministers did not possess the power of compelling the House of assembly of Dominica to pay the salary of the chief justice.
Mr. Bennet
said, that if the colony did not choose to pay for their chief justice, they ought to go without one. He believed the ground taken by the colonists,
954
l
Mr. W. Horton
said, that the government would have taken a very serious responsibility on themselves, if they had deprived this colony of the services of the chief justice. There were many considerations which rendered those services necessary in the highest degree. In many cases it became the duty of government to attempt to force a civil establishment on colonies, to which the colonists had no disposition. He trusted, however, that ere long, the colony in question would be able to pay this small sum.
Colonel Davies
objected to the general impolicy of our colonial system, and complained, that appointments in the colonies were made the objects of patronage.
Mr. Hume
said, that the importance of the duties which the chief justice had to perform was no reason why the people of England should be called upon to pay for his services. If they were important, they were worth paying for by the colonists; and if they were not worth paying for by the colonists, that was a reason why the people of England should not be called upon to pay for them. The charges for the colonies, to be just, ought to be equal. There was no chief justice at St. Lucie or Jamaica; no civil establishment was paid for in those islands. The principle of taxing the people of England for the civil establishment of the colonies was so unjustifiable, that he would take the sense of the committee on the subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that by far the greater portion of the West-India Islands did pay the whole expenses of their civil establishment, but the island of Dominica was, and always had been, one of the most distressed spots in the West Indies. It had suffered repeatedly from violent hurricanes, which had destroyed the whole annual produce of the island. Many parts of it were so sterile as scarcely to repay the labour of cultivation. Under these circumstances, though undoubtedly the propriety of the general rule, that the colonies should pay for their own civil establishments, could not be denied, yet, in the case of this small island, which had a difficulty in
955
Mr. Hume
said, that after what had fallen from the right hon. gentleman, he would not divide the committee on the question; but he would do so next year, if the vote should be then proposed.
UPPER CANADA.]
Mr. Lushington
next moved, "That 8,229
l
l
Mr. Hume
said, that Upper Canada was only separated by an ideal line from the colonies of the United States, which not only paid the whole expenses of their civil, but their military establishments. It was extremely unfair and unjust, that the people of England should be called upon to pay the expenses of the civil as well as the military establishments of her colonies. Before the people of England were taxed, for the purpose of maintaining a civil establishment in Upper Canada, it was fitting that at least they should know of what that establishment consisted. It appeared to him a most improper appropriation of the public money. The people of Canada should provide for their own establishments. If all the officers who were kept there were useful, let their maintenance be provided for by the legislative assembly; but if, as he believed, they were considered unnecessary, why then let them at once be discharged. But, he believed, the people of Canada would throw upon the shoulders of the people of England, all these burthens (and naturally enough too), if the people of England were weak enough to submit to it. For instance, here we find two she riffs. Now what had we to do with these sheriffs? Why should we pay the sheriffs of Canada for duties performed there? He should be glad to know, whether they received no fees. If he were rightly informed, they had a very
956
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Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that the hon. gentleman rested his opposition to this vote upon the ground, that the people of
957
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958
Mr. Grey Bennet
said, it would be well for the House to examine the system that was acted upon in the settlements of the United States of America. They defrayed the expenses of their own establishments, and all that his hon. friend had proposed was, that the people of Canada should follow the example of their neighbours, and consent to pay for the protection of those laws which they enjoyed. They should at least pay, as their neighbours paid, for a government which was respected and beloved by the people. For a good and sound government, such as their neighbours had the happiness to enjoy, they would most cheerfully contribute. But when they saw the enormous church establishment, which they were called upon to support; when they saw the great anxiety which prevailed to introduce into the new world all the fol-
959
Mr. Wilmot Horton
said, that the hon. member seemed to have forgotten one very essential circumstance; namely, the war in Canada, and the militia pensions which it necessarily created. Was it not fair and just that this country should continue to defray these expenses for some time longer? He was confident that in the course of a very few years, this country would be relieved from the necessity of defraying the expenses of Upper Canada, as the resources of that country were rapidly increasing.
Mr. Bright
said, he approved of the vote, and was of opinion, that the colony ought to be encouraged, since it might become, in our possession, a counterpoise to the power of the United States. With respect to the sale of lands he did not know that any revenue derived from such a source would go into the pockets of the people. He took it that the proceeds would go to the Crown, and not be disposable by parliament. But, without entering into that question at present, suffice it to say, that it was clearly the policy of this country to advance money at present to the support of this colony.
Mr. Hume
said, that if so great an improvement was going forward in this colony as had been stated, surely they would not require so large a sum to defray the expenses of their establishments. He was of opinion, that the best policy which this country could pursue with regard to the Canadas, would be, to render them independent at the end of ten years, by which we should be relieved from a large annual expense, and avoid the probability of being drawn into a war with the United
960
Dr. Lushington
said, he could not support his hon. friend, and was therefore anxious to say a few words to explain the reasons which induced him to vote against those with whom he generally acted. You cannot lay down a principle by which you can regulate, whether colonies should be compelled to maintain themselves, or should receive assistance from the mother country. If this country had been too extravagant in her colonial expenditure—a proposition which he was disposed to admit—that was not the place to examine the subject. The expenses could only be examined by a committee up stairs; with any hope at least of arriving at a
961
Mr. Bennet
suggested to his hon. friend, the propriety of withdrawing for the present his opposition to the vote.
Mr. Hume
said, his hon. and learned friend seemed to suppose, that he wished to deprive the colony of Upper Canada of justice. Now, such was not his intention; but his object was, to make them shake off those officers whose services were not required, in order to enable them to main-
962
SIERRA LEONE.]
On the resolution, "That 22,549
l
Mr. Hume
rose, to ask if any certain information could be obtained respecting this colony. There were various reports in circulation as to its utility. He should like to know what benefit the country derived from the establishment? He had heard that the loss of lives in it was very considerable, and the expense, the House saw, was great.
Mr. Wilmot Horton
thought the committee was not a proper place to discuss the question, as to the utility of the establishment at Sierra Leone. That was a question of wide import, and was to be considered not merely in a commercial point of view, but in its tendency, as an experiment to promote the civilization of Africa. The House was called on to vote this sum as a consequence of a certain system, and the hon. member might, if he pleased, bring that system under discussion; but this was not the proper time for so doing.
SETTLEMENTS ON THE GOLD COAST.]
On moving the resolution, "That 43,926
l
Mr. Gordon
observed, that in the year 1817 a committee had examined into the state of these settlements, which at that time were under the management of the African Company. Now, as that company had been established for the better promotion of the slave trade, it became matter of consideration with the committee, whether these settlements ought not to be abandoned, seeing that the objects for which they were established had been declared illegal by the legislature. It was, however, determined that they should be kept up, for two reasons; first, because they were calculated to promote com-
963
Mr. Wilmot Horton
observed, that these objects still attracted the notice of government. He had no hesitation in saying, that, notwithstanding the Ashantee war, the natives in the neighbourhood of these settlements were in a state of slow but progressive improvement. He looked upon these settlements as experiments on a great scale, which ought to be judged of rather by their ultimate results than by their immediate progress from year to year.
COLONIAL SERVICES.]
On the resolution, "That 2,442
l
Mr. Hume
observed, that he had expected never to have heard of this grant again. With regard to the salaries paid to the private secretaries of the governors of Barbadoes, and the other West-India islands, amounting altogether to 1,822
l
Mr. Wilmot Horton
observed, that the hon. member seemed to be confounding the private secretaries of the governors with the public secretaries of the island. The latter functionaries did, it was true, receive fees; but the former received none, their emoluments being confined to the sum of 10
s
Mr. Hume
thought that the explanation of the hon. secretary was any thing but satisfactory.
Mr. Goulburn
said, it was absolutely necessary for every governor of a West-India island to have a private secretary. Their emoluments were barely sufficient to support the rank and station which they were called upon to fill; and, as that
964
Mr. Grey Bennet
observed, that his hon. friend (Mr. Hume) and his private secretary had rendered more service to the public than all the public men with all their private secretaries under the pay of government. He hoped his hon. friend would take the sense of the House on the question.
Mr. Hume
said, what he complained of was, that the governors of the colonies did not call on the houses of assembly to pay their private secretaries if they wanted them. He did not see why Barbadoes, St. Kitt's, and other places, should call upon this country to support private secretaries for them, when New South Wales had hitherto done without one. He concluded with moving, "That the grant should be reduced to 620
l
The committee then divided: For the amendment 21: For the original motion 93: Majority 72.
List of the Minority
Bernal, R.
Monck, J. B.
Colburn, R.
Robarts, A. W.
Davies, col.
Robarts, col.
Fergusson, sir R.
Robinson, sir G.
Guise, sir W.
Sefton, lord
Hume, J.
Webb, colonel.
James, W.
Whitbread, S.
Lamb, hon. G.
Wood, ald.
Lockhart, J. J.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Maberly, J.
TELLER.
Maberly, W. L.
Bennet, H. G.
Martin, J.
PROPAGATION OF THE GOSPEL IN THE
On the resolution, "That 15,532
l
Mr. Hume
rose to object to this money being placed in the hands of this society. Fie had on a former occasion stated two instances of its neglect and misconduct, and he could not but feel strong surprise at hearing it again proposed to intrust so large a sum to its control. In a published account of its expenditure, it was stated, that the managers of the society had given 50
l
965
l
l
Mr. W. Horton
said, that looking to the series of years during which this society had performed the duty which was contemplated by this grant, he thought they might safely be intrusted with its performance at present. But, admitting, for argument's sake, that the society were not proper persons to dispose of the bounty of parliament, would they, therefore, withhold this sum altogether? Did they not know that it was absolutely necessary for those provinces? It was true the
966
Mr. Hume
said, the country, it appeared, was, in addition to the civil and military establishment of those colonies, to support the ecclesiastical establishment. He wondered they were not called on to pay every medical gentleman who proceeded there. Doubtless, their skill would be as beneficial to the bodies of the inhabitants, as the exertions of the clergy were to their souls. Why should not those individuals pay for an establishment, from which themselves alone derived benefit? And they would do so, if these improvident grants were not made. He observed, that a rev. Dr. Inglis, who officiated at Halifax, a large flourishing town, received 400
l
l
l
l
Mr. Butterworth
supported the motion. The grant had heretofore done much good, and it would have a mischievous effect if it were now withheld. With respect to the society for the propagation of the gospel, its labours had been beneficial. It was true that it had been exposed to some atrocious impostures, which ought to be inquired into; but, of its general utility, no doubt could be entertained. The grant, in his opinion, ought, if altered at all, to be increased.
Mr. Grey Bennet
said, it no doubt was very proper that those individuals should receive religious instruction; but the question was, who were to pay for it, the people of England, whose advantage must be contingent, or the inhabitants of the colonies, who received the immediate benefit of religious instructions? Another ques-
967
Mr. Butterworth
said, that his observation as to irregularities was not meant to be general. Many of the most honourable characters were connected with that most useful body.
Mr. Goulburn
said, that if the hon. member supposed that the whole of the religious establishment of those colonies was supported out of this grant, he was much mistaken. In Canada, tracts of barren land were set apart for the support of the clergy [a laugh]. The country, it should be observed, improved by cultivation, and as fast as those lands became available, they afforded moderate incomes to the clergy, in addition to what they obtained from parliament. But even if the colony made no effort itself, still he contended it was the duty of the mother country to appropriate funds for the purpose of promoting the happiness of the people; which could only be done through the medium of religious instruction. The hon. member for Aberdeen had remarked on the small sum subscribed for this purpose by the great dignitaries of the church; but he should recollect, that those who contributed to this society contributed also to many other most useful institutions. It might as well be said, when the hon. member gave sixpence to a beggar in the street, that his charity extended no further, as that the charity of those reverend persons was confined alone to this
968
Mr. C. Wilson
supported the resolution.
Mr. Monck
looked upon this grant as a great waste of public money. The great majority of the people of Canada, he had always understood, were Roman catholics; and here they were called upon to give a large sum of money to a sect greatly inferior in numbers. The catholics maintained their clergy, and he could see no reason why the protestants should not do the same.
Sir M. W. Ridley
inquired whether this money was appropriated under the superintendence of the colonial government to the support of the protestant religion, or whether it was distributed amongst those fanatics whose wild doctrines were calculated to do so much mischief.
Mr. W. Horton
said, that the money was appropriated to the support of the protestant religion only.
Mr. Hume
said, that that was the most objectionable part of the grant. Why were the catholics of Ireland and the dissenters to be taxed for the benefit of another sect?
Sir T. D. Acland
defended the society. It had, he said, been a chartered society ever since 1711, and certainly was not established in times which were least favourable to religious feeling. If the committee refused this vote, they would be guilty of two kinds of injustice. They would do injustice to a respectable society long existing in the country, not only without reproach, but which parliament had sanctioned from year to year, and the abuses of which, if any existed, ought to be made the subject of investigation in another manner, and not in the way recommended by the hon. members for Aberdeen and Dover, whom he advised to exercise their united efforts in behalf of the religion of their country, by preferring a regular and distinct motion, embracing the charges to which they fancied the society liable. They would be also guilty of another injustice: an injustice to those meritorious individuals who were doing the work of religion and the church on the other side of the Atlantic, in the full confidence, that the support which they had hitherto received from parlia-
969
Sir Scrope Morland
also defended the grant.
Lord Althorp
said, that although he should certainly prefer seeing the grant in the hands of responsible persons, he should be very unwilling to refuse his assent to the vote altogether. If he must, therefore, come to the question, aye or no, he would certainly say that it was better the money should be in the hands of the society, than that it should be refused entirely.
Mr. Butterworth
said, he had only alluded to some irregularities into which he wished inquiry to be made. With respect to the missionaries, he did not believe that they would be found, when the matter was investigated, to have been inculcating those fanatical and dangerous doctrines to which the hon. baronet seemed to allude. He held in his hand a copy of the resolutions of the hon. baronet's constituents at Newcastle, which showed what they thought on the subject [Cries of "read, read"]. He would not read them in that irregular way, but he would hand them to the hon. baronet.
Sir. M. W. Ridley
said, that the observation he had made, had been entirely misunderstood by the hon. gentleman. He had seen those resolutions; but as they proceeded from a very small portion of his constituents, and were couched in such language as could reflect little credit on any body, he did not think it necessary to read them. He trusted he had too much taste to touch the question of the missionaries as connected with the West Indies. He would not say a word on this latter subject at present; but, whenever it should come under the consideration of the House, he should be prepared to express his honest opinion upon it.
Mr. T. Wilson
defended the propriety of the grant, and approved of its being placed under the control of the Society.
Mr. Grey Bennet
then moved an amendment, which went to place the grant at the disposal of the governors of the colonies.
The committee divided: For the amendment 24: For the original motion 93. A second division took place on the grant itself. For the grant 79: Against it 19.
970
List of the Minority
Colburn, R.
Monck, J. B.
Calvert, C.
Robarts, A. W.
Davies, col.
Robarts, col.
Fergusson sir. R.
Sykes, D.
Gurney, Hudson
Sefton, lord
Guise, sir W.
Wood, alderman
Hume, J.
Wilson, sir R.
James, W.
Whitbread, S.
Lamb, hon. W.
Martin, J.
TELLER.
Maberly, W. L.
Bennet, H. G.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 15, 1824
RECOGNITION OF THE INDEPENDENCE OF SOUTH AMERICA.]
The Marquis of Lansdown
.—Before your lordships proceed to the business appointed for this evening, the noble earl opposite will permit me to ask, or rather to renew the question which I put a few evenings ago—whether any answer has been received by his majesty's government from the court of Spain, to the last despatch of Mr. Secretary Canning to sir William A'Court?
The Earl of Liverpool.
—I have no difficulty in stating, in reference to the inquiry of the noble marquis, that no official answer has as yet been received by his majesty's government, to the despatch mentioned by the noble marquis.
The order of the day for summoning their lordships being then read,
The Marquis of Lansdown
rose and said:—My lords; in pursuance of the notice which I gave on a former evening, I rise to propose to your lordships an address to his majesty, on the subject of the present state of the South American provinces, and on the expediency of an immediate recognition of the independence of Spanish America.
971
972
973
974
de facto
de facto
de Jacto
de facto
975
976
977
978
979
980
981
982
de facto
983
de facto
984
985
may
have
986
"—Bleed, bleed, poor countries!
Great tyranny, lay thou thy basis sure,
For goodness dares not check thee."
l
987
l
l
988
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l
989
now
990
991
992
The Earl of Liverpool
began, by observing, that he perfectly agreed in the general principles which the noble marquis had laid down on this important subject. If he felt an objection to any part of the noble marquis's speech, it was to that part in which, upon entering into detail, he had come to apply those principles which he seemed either not distinctly to understand, or not perfectly to accommodate to the purposes of his argument. He would first apply himself to clear away those parts in which there was no difference of opinion
993
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995
996
de facto
997
de facto
998
999
1000
1001
1002
de facto
1003
Lord Ellenborough
said, he thought that no noble lord could have heard the arguments and statements of the noble earl who had just sat down, without feeling that the question between his noble friend who had opened the debate and that noble earl was of a more extended nature than the noble earl seemed to think it; and that if the address of the noble marquis was not agreed to, it was plain that there was no security that the recognition of South American independence would not be postponed, in the way it had hitherto been, for an indefinite length of time. The question was not whether we should now recognize the independence of colonies separated from, Spain, but whether we should recognize colonies once belonging to Spain, Spain being now in the power of France. The whole course of the recent conduct of France showed that she was anxious to seize the first opportunity of regaining her ascendancy in Europe by renewing the principles of the family compact; and satisfied he was that those states would be attacked by France, in the name of Spain. Who that had attended to late events could attach the smallest credit to the denial on the part of France, that such was her object? If his majesty's ministers were so blind to the views of France and of the confederated powers of Europe, he could only deplore; that blindness, and trust that the House would take a clearer view of the designs of France and the interests of this country, by adopting the motion of his noble friend. Whilst this country was engaged with Spain in repelling that attack which the noble earl (forgetting the attack of last year) stigmatized as the most atrocious that had ever taken place, it might have been necessary, when we were fighting side by side with Spain, to say that the integrity of the Spanish monarchy was our first object; but that necessity no longer existed, when the attack was repelled, and that monarchy was out of danger from the enemy. The consolidation of the connexion of the colonies of Spain with the mother country was, in 1818, not our sole object; but if it were,
1004
1005
1006
Lord Calthorpe
thought that, looking to the language of the papers which had been laid upon the table, there was sufficient ground for placing confidence in the delarations of his majesty's ministers. He could not help thinking, however, that this country would be justified hereafter in feeling the utmost jealousy in co-operating with the measures of any foreign European power. He could not forget that the French government had engaged last year in an enterprise, which every man, whether he approved or disapproved of the Spanish constitution, concurred in deprecating. He was ready to admit, that the invasion of Spain had been carried on in a spirit of moderation and forbearance, and that the illustrious leader of the French armies had, in his treatment of the people of Spain, conducted himself in a manner which reflected the
1007
The Earl of Roseberry
said, he rose merely to declare, that it was his intention to support the original motion, not from any doubt of the sincerity of his majesty's government to carry into effect the complete recognition of the South American states, but from being persuaded
1008
The Marquis of Lansdown
briefly replied. He contended, that the noble earl opposite had not urged a single reason which could justify his majesty's government in delaying the recognition of the independence of South America, beyond that which was founded on the prospect of Spain shortly acknowledging the independence of her colonies. Now, whether the noble earl opposite regarded Spain as an independent state, free from the shackles and control of France, or whether he regarded her, as she really was, the degraded and debased dependent of the French monarchy, he would at once withdraw his motion, if the noble earl, or any one of his majesty's ministers, would lay his hand on his heart and say, that he thought Spain would, in a short time acknowledge the independence of her colonies. They all knew what the Spanish government had been, and continued to be; they all knew the reluctance which Spain had formerly shown in recognising the independence of Holland. If the noble earl waited until the independence of South America was recognised by Spain, it would never fall to his lot to acknowledge their independence—that glory would devolve to some ingenious and eloquent statesman yet unborn, who might fill the noble lord's place. Feeling, as he did, a deep interest in the independence and immediate prosperity of the South American states, and believing that their welfare was intimately connected with the prosperity of this country and of the world, he thought that the recognition of their independence ought not to be delayed for a single month, or week, or day. The noble earl had spoken of the establishment of diplomatic relations as a mere form; but he could not but be aware, that, in the eyes of civilized Europe, the greatest importance was attached to those forms. The complete recognition of the independence of the United States, by the opening of diplomatic relations on the part of this country, had given to those States, in the eyes of Europe, an importance which, until that measure was adopted, they had not ac-
1009
The House divided: For the Marquis of Lansdown's motion 34; Against it 95; Majority 61. The Earl of Liverpool's amendment was then put and agreed to.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 15, 1824
DISTILLERIES—PETITION OF RECTIFIERS TO CONVERT RUM INTO GIN.]
Mr. Hume
presented a petition from certain individuals, rectifiers of British spirits, in and near the city of London. They represented, "That they had invested a large capital in the purchase of works near London, for the rectification of spirits; and stated, that notwithstanding it was declared by law that no distiller should be also a rectifier, a great many distillers were at this time rectifiers; that about six of the large distillers regulated the markets and prices in London; and that those individuals were also distillers." Now, he could not take upon himself to vouch for the truth of these several allegations, but their matter was of extreme importance, and well worthy the attention of the House. The petitioners further represented, that those large distillers used stills of the capacity of 3,000 gallons and upwards; and could effect, therefore, a very serious operation, at all times, on the market; the rectifiers not being able to obtain supplies of spirits from the distillers as they wanted them, if the distillers chose to withhold; and the distillers assigning no reason for the defect of supply. The petitioners prayed, that in justice to themselves and to the trade generally, the House would appoint a committee to inquire into the expediency of licensing stills of smaller dimensions than were at present allowed; by which means the monopoly complained of would be defeated,
1010
Mr. Ellice
said, he wished to call the particular attention of the chancellor of the Exchequer to the statements of the petition. It was most important, as far as regarded relief to the West Indies. The right hon. gentleman had stated the intention of government to reduce the duty on rum by 13½
d
s
d
s
d
1011
Mr. Benelt
, of Wiltshire, conceived that to allow the rectifying of West-India spirits, as proposed by the petitioners, would be extremely injurious to the growers of barley, and generally to the landed interest of England.
Mr. W. Smith
said, that if any case had been laid in this petition for the appointment of a committee, not only would he himself have been friendly to such a measure, but that respectable body, the malt-distillers, would have entertained, he was sure, no sort of objection to it. With all his high opinion of the public services of his hon. friend (Mr. Hume), and his conviction that, generally speaking, his hon. friend, had proved to be in the right when error was most strongly imputed to him, he did think that his hon. friend would experience the value of his own declaration, that he would not be answerable for the truth of the allegations in this petition. Last week he (Mr. S.) had happened to see the name which stood at the head of the subscribers to this petition; and he had then been told, by a member of the House, that the true reason of that person's inability to obtain spirits from the distillers was, not that they would supply the rectifiers, but that the credit of the individual himself was not such as to induce them to deal with him.
Ordered to lie on the table.
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.]
Numerous petitions were presented, praying for the Abolition of Negro Slavery. On presenting one from the city of Norwich,
Mr. W. Smith
said, that in justice to his constituents, nearly all of whom had signed this petition, he could not avoid making one or two remarks upon the language held in the papers which had come from the West Indies. It had been stated in some of these, that the whole of the measures introduced on this subject had originated with a wild, mad-headed, fanatical party in this country. If the advocates for the measures alluded to were such a party, he was happy in being one of their number. Whether his majesty's ministers had voluntarily supported those measures, or been driven to them by this wild and fanatical party, he would not say; but most certainly their conduct was praiseworthy in what they had done. The hon. member next condemned the language held on this subject at some pa-
1012
Mr. Watson Taylor
said, he could not approve the manner in which some of these petitions for the abolition of slavery were got up. In his own country, itinerant adventurers had come down with petitions ready prepared. He would not say by whom those parties were sent, but certainly their conduct was far from being; praise-worthy. They addressed themselves to the passions of the people on the subject of negro slavery, rather than to reason. The poor artisan, mechanic, and!peasant, were asked, whether they objected to seeing persons in perpetual slavery; and on answering, of course, in the affirmative, they were requested to sign the petitions presented to them. He could not think this a fair way of collecting the opinions of the public on this important subject.
Mr. Grey Bennet
defended the conduct of those who had made themselves active on this occasion, and contended, that some of the wisest and most humane men in the country were amongst the number of those who were favourable to the abolition of slavery. He was surprised to find hon. members so hostile to the exercise of the right of petition. He thought there must be something bad in the system, when gentlemen were so afraid of having it inquired into.
Mr. Watson Taylor
said, he had not intended to make any objection to the right of petitioning, which he had always considered as amongst the most valuable privileges of the people. It was the abuse, and not the use of the right, to which he objected. He did not mean to impugn the motives of those who were adverse to the principle of negroe slavery; but he could not approve of the means which had been resorted to for getting up the petitions on the subject.
Mr. Secretary Peel
earnestly entreated gentlemen not to anticipate a discussion on this important question, which must come on in the regular course in the next twenty-four hours. He hoped that hon. members would rather wait until they had heard the statement of which his right hon. friend (Mr. Canning) had given notice, respecting it, and which stood for to-morrow.
Ordered to lie on the table.
1013
BEER AND MALT DUTIES—MODE OF COLLECTING THEM SEPARATELY.]
Mr. Maberly
rose, pursuant to the notice he had given, to submit his motion on the subject of the inequality of the duties paid by different classes of the public on Beer and Malt. He began by observing, that when the subject was before the House on a former occasion, but little had been said upon it, and he believed it was one which was not well understood. It was, however, as he viewed it, very simple, and rested upon the principles, whether one class of his majesty's subjects should be taxed higher than the others, and whether the persons taxing should reap all the benefit of this inequality. As there were various acts of parliament connected with the subject of the beer and malt duties, he did not think it expedient to enter into the question in all its ramifications. He would, therefore, confine himself solely to one branch of it; namely, the interests of the parties taxed, and the inequality of the mode of taxation. In order that he might not be misunderstood, he would now state the nature of the motion with which he should conclude. He would move "That a Select Committee be appointed, to inquire into the present mode of taxing malt and beer separately; and whether it would not be expedient to collect the same amount of duties on malt alone, thereby taxing all consumers equally, instead of, as at present, taxing one class of malt consumers at 2
s
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1014
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s.;
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1016
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1017
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1018
1019
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1020
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he was by no means prepared to admit that this question had been so imperfectly discussed last year. He did not flatter himself, that any thing he had then said was sufficient to persuade hon. gentlemen on the other side of the House; from their Votes at the time it was quite clear that they were not convinced against their will, although several members who disapproved of the motion had stated many unanswerable reasons for not consenting to the proposed committee. He would fairly confess that since the last debate on this question, nothing new had occurred to him, nor had a reconsideration of what had passed induced him to change the view which he had then taken of the subject. He could not therefore pretend that he was furnished either with new light or fresh information, and he much feared that his stock of ingenuity was far too small to furnish new arguments every time the gentlemen opposite chose after defeat to renew their motions. As it was rendered necessary, by the course which had been pursued, he would briefly re-state the grounds on which he had rested his opinion that it was inexpedient to acquiesce in the motion just submitted. The hon. gentleman had recommended his proposition, as being safe and salutary on two accounts principally. First, he had appealed to the anxiety of the House for economy; and, secondly, he had appealed to its love of justice. He had maintained, that by dividing the tax between beer and malt, the nation incurred a greater expense than if it were placed only upon one; and, further, that it was most unfair to relieve the rich at the expense of the poor. These general principles were undoubtedly very good, and in this case they had only the slight defect of wanting application. As
1021
l
l
l
l
1022
pro tanto
1023
1024
Mr. Hume
contended, that the arguments of the hon. mover had recieved no sufficient answer from the chancellor of the Exchequer. As to the assertion that by a transfer of the duty from beer to malt, there would be no economy in the expense of collection, he begged to dissent entirely therefrom. He wished they had before them the chairman, or any other proper officer, of the board of Excise, to put to him this question—"Do you not, in appointing your officers in any part of the country, calculate the number of hours that their occupations will furnish them, so as fully to employ their whole time? "He knew the answer would be in the affirmative; for no part of the public business was so attentively and laboriously performed as that done by the officers of the Excise. If these officers were employed once a day, or every other day, for three or four hours in each brewery, it was obvious, that, when this source of employment was taken away, a much smaller number of officers would be required, and a reduction might take place to a very large extent; though it was difficult to state the precise saving which might be effected. In regard to the chancellor of the Exchequer's answer to the objections drawn from the inequality of the tax, that answer amounted to this—" there is an inequality, but that inequality is not so great as the hon. mover has contended." Now really, in arguing a question of this kind, it mattered not whether one half, or a third, or a quarter of the poor were unequally affected. The question was, whether a tax was unequal or not? and, that it was unequal the right hon. gentleman had admitted. The truth was, that the great body of labouring people in the large towns were those upon whom the beer tax pressed with all its severity. As to the agricultural interest, so far from their being injured by the additional duty on malt, accompanied by a reduction of the tax on beer, the increased consumption of malt which would accompany the measure, and the stimulus that would thus be given to the growth of barley, would more than counterbalance any burthen that might be thrown on them as brewers of their own beer. The chancellor of the Exchequer should recollect how he was cheered when he declared,
1025
Mr. Wodehouse
said, that the motion was, in many respects, so objectionable, that he could not give it his support. Though it could not be denied that the Beer-tax was unequal, yet, when the hon. member contended, that the whole of the beer brewed by public brewers was drunk
by
Mr. Maberly
denied that he had used the argument in an unqualified sense.
Mr. Wodehouse
said, that although he might not have used the hon. member's words, yet he thought he had not mis-stated the tenour of his argument, and was positive that the hon. member had insinuated that the chancellor of the Exchequer persevered in his present views, in base compliance with the feelings of the country gentlemen. The hon. gentleman had done the same thing last year, when he promised in magnanimous terms, to hold them up to public notice: he had, he supposed done so by the present motion, and he wished him joy of the result. The hon. member had said, that if the duty were transferred, he was ready to concede any penalties to prevent abuses regarding malt; but, was he not aware of the enormous penalties and restrictions which at
1026
Mr. Maberly
interposed to explain. What he had said respecting penalties was, that he should be ready to affix the severest penalties to the mixing deleterious drugs with beer.
Mr. Wodehouse
said, that the explanation of the hon. gentleman did not affect the argument he was prepared to offer, which was this: If from 20
s
s
Mr. Denison
would support the motion, because he thought his hon. friend had demonstrated, that the alteration would save a large sum in the collection of the revenue, while at the same time it would materially serve the poorer classes. The saving might be over-rated; but that it
1027
Mr. Cripps
said, there was no tax more evaded than the tax on malt. The number of private maltsters who contrived to carry on their business in spite of the vigilance of the Excise officers, was inconceivable to those who had hot the means of inquiring into the subject. To increase this tax would increase the evil, and he should therefore oppose the transfer of the beer duty to malt. There were no complaints of the beer tax as an unequal tax, and therefore it was to be presumed, that it was not felt to be such by the people. If, on the other hand, they reduced a part of the malt tax, he had no doubt the result would be most beneficial both to the revenue and to the agricultural; interest.
Mr. Monck
said, he was sorry he could hot support the motion of the hon. member for Abingdon. If there was an inequality in the beer tax, it was an inequality which had existed from the very origin of the Excise. It was known that the tax on beer was a part of the hereditary revenue of the Excise, given to Charles 2nd in lieu of the wards and liveries; while it was not until the reign of William, that the landed interest would submit to a malt tax, justly considering it as a species of land tax, because the great consumption of malt was in the beer given to farmers' labourers. Now, he thought that, so far from amending an inequality by adopting the proposed motion, they would be exactly introducing one. The existing one was only apparent, while the proposed substitute would be real. The true way
1028
Captain Maberly
said, there was an inconsistency in the argument of the hon. gentleman who had just spoken, and who had at first contended that it was improper to remove this tax, because, in other respects, the taxes on land were unequal. He told them, in the first place, that the land paid the poor-rates, the county-rates, &c. which personal property did not pay, and that therefore the taxation was unequal; but, on the other hand, he stated, that personal property was charged with the legacy duty, and the tax on the probate of wills, which the land was not charged with. While the hon. gentleman contended for the inequality of the system of taxation, as it affected land, he, with the same breath, admitted that it was
1029
Lord Althorp
said, that on the best consideration he had been able to give to the subject, he felt himself bound to vote against the motion. He thought his hon. friend proceeded on the old fallacy, that two and two in taxation always made four. He calculated more than he had a right to do, on the effect of the measure in reducing the expense of collection. From the great inducements to fraud, he thought that reduction would not be practicable, to any considerable extent.
Mr. C. Smith
opposed the motion for going into a committee.
Mr. Maberly
replied. He said, that the propositions contained in his motion went to shew the inequality that existed in the duties on malt and beer; and he had heard no argument whatever on the other side, to prove that that inequality did not exist. Indeed, that inequality was quite notorious; notwithstanding which the chancellor of the Exchequer had opposed his motion for a committee. It had been stated, that the saving, which he had estimated at 295,000
l
1030
The House divided: Ayes 26: Noes 130.
List of the Minority
Anson, hon. G.
Lennard, T. B.
Barrett, S. M.
Maberly, W. L.
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Mackintosh, sir J.
Bernal, R.
Martin, J.
Bright, H.
Newport, sir J.
Butterworth, J.
Nugent, lord
Denison, J.
Rice, T, S.
Fergusson, sir R.
Robarts, G.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Robarts, A. W.
Hutchinson, hon. C.
Smith, John.
Leader, W.
Smith, William.
1031
Sykes, D.
Wood, M.
Tierney, right hon. G.
TELLERS.
Whitbread, S. C.
Maberly, J.
Williams, W.
Hume, Joseph.
MUTINY BILL—CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IN THE ARMY.]
On the order of the day for the third reading of the Mutiny Bill,
Mr. Hume
said, he had given notice, on a former occasion, of his intention to propose a clause to be added to the Mutiny bill, when that subject should again be brought under the consideration of the House. Pie should now read to the House the clause which he meant to propose: it was this—"And be it further enacted, that it shall not be lawful to inflict corporal punishment, by flogging, on any private soldier, corporal, or non-commissioned officer, in the army or militia of the United Kingdom, any thing herein contained to the contrary notwithstanding." In a former stage of the bill, when he had endeavoured to obtain the consent of the House to this clause, and unfortunately without success, he had stated all the arguments which presented themselves to his mind, as likely to prevail upon the House to adopt it. He was not aware of any additional argument which he could urge on the present occasion, in favour of the view which he took of this question; but, since he had last addressed the House on the subject, he had had the good fortune to meet with an officer who had served in the army of Wurtem-berg, from whom he had obtained some information which might not be uninstructive, in considering this subject. It appeared, then, that during the reign of the late king, the system of flogging had been carried to a great extent: it was frequently resorted to, but the severest punishment rarely exceeded a hundred canes. However, this species of chastisement was considered so disgraceful, and had so demoralising an effect upon the men, that they became callous and indifferent to the value of character; and it happened not unfrequently that, from day to day, the punishment was repeated on the same individual; and the only effect ft produced was, to harden the offender, without in the least degree restoring that discipline, to accomplish which, this severity had been resorted to. Upon the accession of the present king, however, a different course was adopted, and at present no man in the army was subjected to this dis-
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1033
Sir H. Vivian
said, he fully appreciated those humane sentiments which had been expressed by the hon. gentleman. The policy of carrying into execution those feelings, as far as was practicable, he, as a commanding officer, freely admitted; and, he was sure, he might add, that there was no commanding officer in the service, who was not disposed to relax the severity of punishment, as far as was consistent with prudence and wholesome discipline. But, he must at the same time take leave to state, that it was no slight reflection on the character of the illustrious individual who presided over the army with so much advantage to the country; it was no trifling censure on those who held the rank of general officers, to suppose that they would not
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1035
1036
1037
Sir R. Fergusson
, although he agreed in much of what had just fallen from his hon. and gallant friend, yet differed from him in some points, and should certainly vote for the amendment. He was persuaded that the proposed experiment could never be made at a properer time than the present. His hon. and gallant friend had told the House ho had done the utmost he could to prevent corporal punishment in his own regiment. He was well persuaded of that, knowing, as he did, his hon. and gallant friend's character. There was also, he was most ready to
1038
Lord Palmerston
observed, that his hon. and gallant friend near him (sir H. Vivian) had so ably stated the merits of the question that it remained for him only to add a very few words. In fact, the last part of what had just fallen from the hon. general opposite, almost exceeded the principle for which he (lord P.) contended. The only difference between I them being as to the extent. The hon. general considered the power of inflicting the punishment applicable to foreign service. He (lord P.) thought it as applicable to home service. It was allowed on all hands that the punishment was not abused: that the practice of inflicting corporal punishment was much less frequent than formerly; and that it was in consequence of the efforts of the commander-in-chief that it had been so diminished. The proposition of the hon. member for Aberdeen went to take away a power, which he (lord P.) contended was absolutely necessary. It went to
1039
The House then divided—For the Clause 47: Against it 127: Majority 80.
List of the Minority
Allen, J. H.
Monck. J. B.
Althorp, visc.
Newport, sir J.
Baring, Alex.
Nugent, lord
Barrett, S. M.
Parnell, sir H.
Bennel, hon. H. G.
Phillips, G.
Birch, J.
Philips, G. H.
Bond, J.
Rice, T. S.
Bridges, sir. J.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Colborne N. W. R.
Robarts, A.
Denison, W. J.
Robarts, G.
Duncannon, visc.
Robinson, sir G.
Fergusson, sir R.
Smith, J.
Grenfell, P.
Smith, R.
Gurney, H.
Stanley, lord
Hutchinson, hon. C. H.
Sykes, D.
James, W.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Kennedy, T. F.
Warre, J. A.
Lamb, hon. G.
Western, C. C.
Lennard, T. B.
Williams, W.
Lloyd, S. J.
Wood, M.
Lushington, S.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Leader, W,
TELLERs.
Maberly, J.
Maberly, W. L.
Hume, J.
Martin, J.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Mr. Hume
next adverted, to the manner in which the purchase of commissions was at present effected, contrary to the regulation of the commander-in-chief, by which a certain sum only was allowed to be given for them. He believed many gentlemen were not aware of the declaration which officers made when they purchased promotion. That declaration was as follows "I do declare and certify, on the word and honour of an officer and a gentleman, that I did not allow in any way or manner, more than the sum of—as the fair value of the said commission." And underneath were the following words—"I hereby also declare, that I have made no clandestine bargain with respect to the said commission." Now, notwithstanding this declaration, there was scarcely one case in ten, in which officers received their commissions at the regulation price, though they thus certified that fact. The commander of the forces and the secretary at war could not be ignorant of what was done, and ought, therefore, to cancel such a useless declaration.
1040
Sir H. Hardinge
admitted, that under the present order, officers were placed in a most unpleasant situation. Fully persuaded of this, he had made it his duty to inquire into the matter, and he found it was under consideration in the proper quarter, to recall this very objectionable declaration or certificate [hear]. Gentlemen should, however, recollect, that this certificate was introduced to remedy a great evil; namely, the constant traffic in commissions, by which the officers of the army had been most seriously injured. The duke of York was anxious, by the regulation relative to the price of commissions, to preserve and secure the interests of the less wealthy officers. Under that regulation, it was impossible for a junior officer however rich, to step over the head of a senior officer, so long as the latter had the means of putting down the stipulated price for his commission, which was a point of very great importance. It certainly was fitting, in altering the system, to take care that the door should not be again opened to that extensive jobbing which prevailed before the certificate was introduced. He knew, however, that that form was viewed with hostile feelings by the army; and he had learned from a source on which he could implicitly rely, that measures were in contemplation for recalling this objectionable certificate. Under these circumstances, he conceived it would be wrong to agree to the clause proposed by the hon. gentleman, and he should therefore vote against it.
Colonel Davies
said, he was certainly desirous that this declaration should be
1041
Lord Palmerston
observed, that this was a question full of difficulty. As to the clause proposed by the hon. member for Aberdeen, he really was at a loss to understand it as the hon. gentleman read it. The Mutiny bill had been described as a mass of unintelligible clauses; if so, he was sure its character would not be improved, if the clause proposed by the hon. member were added to it. He repeated, however, that the subject was full of difficulties. The practice itself of selling commissions was one which, fairly estimating all its advantages and disadvantages it decidedly appeared to be expedient to continue. It brought into the army many persons connected with the higher classes of society, and diffused a spirit that was very advantageous. If, however, commissions were allowed to be sold, it was obviously necessary to limit the price that was to be paid for them; for if not, and if every officer were permitted to bid according to his means and to his desire of promotion, abuses would take place beyond all calculation. An old and a poor officer would never get forward. Junior officers would overstep the most meritorious seniors. How, then, did the regulation in question apply? First, he would take the case of a commission sold by an officer in one regiment to an officer in another. There, there could be no difficulty—no danger of an infraction of the regulation. For the officer who wished to sell, applied to the commander-in-chief, and never came in contact with the officer who wished to purchase. He would next take the case of a regimental succession. Suppose it a majority that was to be sold. The senior captain had the pre-emption, if his means enabled him to purchase. Now, what temptation had he
1042
Mr. Grey Bennet
said, he had some years ago, introduced this subject to the notice of parliament. It was one which nearly concerned the honour of the army; for nothing could be more galling to gentlemen than to be called on to put their names to a paper of this kind, well knowing, as they did, that the regulation to which it referred had not been obeyed Under these circumstances, he trusted that the commander-in-chief and the noble lord would turn their attention to the subject, and get rid
1043
Dawkins
Sir H. Vivian
was anxious that the certificate should be done away with, but could not support the proposed clause, as it was not the proper mode of accomplishing the object.
Mr. Hume
said, that after the reprobation which the system had met with from both sides of the House, he would not press his motion, but would beg leave to withdraw the clause.
The clause was withdrawn, and the bill was passed.
IRISH PROTESTANT CHARTER-SCHOOLS.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Irish miscellaneous Estimates, Mr. Goulburn moved, "That 21,615
l
Mr. Hume
said, that the Protestant charter-schools were a mere charity, and ought to be supported by the funds which had been left for that purpose. If parliament were called upon to grant money, it should be for general education, and not for the service of a particular class. Last year the right hon. secretary pledged his word that the sum demanded this year would be less than it was theft: but instead of
1044
l
l
l
Sir J. Newport
maintained, that all the grants respecting education in Ireland ought to be postponed until the House had declared the principle on which they, would proceed with respect to them. The doling out separate sums in this manner destroyed the benefit which it was in tended to confer. He wished the subject to be treated as a whole, and to be submitted to a committee above stairs, for the purpose of ascertaining in what way the bounty of parliament could be rendered, most available. He would move as an amendment, that the present resolution be postponed.
Mr. Goulburn
was utterly at a loss to conceive why, because it might be desirable to appoint a committee to inquire into the present state of education in Ireland, the charitable institutions for that object should suddenly be deprived of their usual support. With respect to charter-schools, he admitted that the establishments were more in the light charitable institutions than of places, where systems of education were laid down. As a charitable system he was prepared to maintain it.
Sir M. W. W. Ridley
said, they were now going to vote away a sum of money, and were told, that an inquiry into the subject of education in Ireland was immediately intended; was it then, under these circumstances, too much to ask a delay of ten days or a fortnight?
Mr. C. Grant
did not think that the inquiry as to the state of education in Ireland could possibly end during the session. With respect to charter-schools in Ireland, he condemned the principle, on which they were founded. He regretted that the estimate under the consideration of the House had been increased in amount this year. He must object to the institution of charter-schools, because he was convinced that the public money might be laid out to more advantage. There were powerful objections to them, both of a local and general nature. They were opposed to the feelings of the people of Ireland, and to their prejudices. The grant, however, could not be suddenly withdrawn, and for the present he would not oppose it.
Lord Althorp
said, that what had fallen
1045
Mr. Goulbum
said, that with respect to a committee, he could not give any pledge or opinion one way or the other.
Mr. Spring Rice
said, he could not but discover an alteration in the tone of the right hon. gentleman with respect to education in Ireland, and rather feared that the right hon. gentleman would oppose the motion for a committee. The House had now, for the first time during the last ten years, been called upon to give its approbation to the principle of charter-schools in Ireland. In former years, the failure of those establishments was admitted, and promises were made, that the grants would be reduced. But now the right hon. gentleman proposed to augment them. The right hon. gentleman had endeavoured to show a connexion between charter-schools and the Foundling-hospital. But that connection would make him more disposed to oppose the grant. He objected to charter-schools, because they were founded on an exclusive principle. He objected to that principle as much as he did to the proposition brought forward by the Catholic clergy the other night. He did not wish to see an exclusive system of education, either by the Catholics or by the Protestants, at the public expense; and, in his opinion, the House could only justify the refusal to the Catholics by discountenancing an exclusive system for the Protestants. With respect to the Foundling-hospital, that establishment was formerly supported by a tax on the citizens of Dublin. They complained of it, and the tax was removed; but then came down an augmented vote for that establishment—an establishment which had greatly added to the vice, the misery, and the sufferings of the people of Ireland. The principle had the same effect invariably, wherever it was applied; and it was a curious fact, that in Paris, since the institution of a foundling hospital in that city, the exposures of children had increased from the ratio of one in ten, to the ratio of one in three.
Mr. Hume
said, that the Irish government had formerly pledged itself to reduce the grant. It had accordingly been partially reduced: but now it was proposed, notwithstanding the pledge of the
1046
l
The House divided: For the Amendment 33: For the original Resolution 74.
List of the Minority
Alhorp, visc.
Martin, J.
Barrett, S. M.
Monck, J. B.
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Newport, sir J.
Bernal, R.
Parnell sir H.
Davies, T. H.
Phillips, G.
Denison, E.
Rickford, W.
Duncannon, visc.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Fergusson, sir R.
Robarts, A. W.
Gordon, R.
Robarts, G.
Grosvenor, gen.
Robinson, sir G.
Guise, sir B. W.
Stanley, lord
Hutchinson, hon. C. H.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Hume, J.
Tremayne, J. H.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Western, C. C.
James, W.
Whitbread, S. C.
Kennedy, T. F.
Williams, J.
Leader, W.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Lennard, T. B.
Lamb, hon. G.
TELLER.
Macdonald, J.
Rice, T. S.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Tuesday, March 16, 1824
AMELIORATION OF THE CONDITION
After a number of petitions praying for the Abolition of Slavery, had been presented to the House,
Earl Bathurst
rose to lay before their lordships certain papers explanatory of the measures for the Amelioration of the Condition of the West-India Negroes, referred to in his Majesty's Speech at the commencement of the present session, and which had been adopted in consequence of the resolutions agreed to by the House of Commons in May last. Those resolutions he would, with the leave of their lordships, now read·
nem. con
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1048
1049
1050
1051
1052
1053
1054
1055
1056
1057
1058
1059
1060
1061
Lord Holland
said, he did not rise for the purpose of discussing any of the numerous topics which the noble earl had introduced into his speech, but he wished to learn from the noble earl, whether the order in council to which he had referred, and in which so many wise and judicious provisions had been incorporated, was intended to extend to all the ceded islands, or only to Trinidad? He had not clearly understood the noble earl on that point; but it appeared to him, that many of the provisions had reference to the Spanish law only. With respect to the provisions themselves, he had not any observation to make. Every observation that he could make would be in favour of them; and he could only regret that they had not been made many years ago. As to any former opinion he had offered with respect to any part of this question, he wished to be understood as not nailed down to any such view, in the absence of the necessary information; and, above all, he begged to be considered as reserving to himself the right of discussing hereafter the intended ecclesiastical establishment. As a friend of freedom, a friend to good government, as a member of that House, and as connected with the West-India islands, he most willingly bore his testimony to the very temperate, judicious, and enlightened statement which the noble earl had that night submitted to the consideration of the House.
Earl Bathurst,
in answer to the question of the noble baron, stated, that instructions similar to those contained in the order, had been sent out to the colonies of Demerara and Berbice, and an order in council founded upon them was now in preparation. The order, with some slight alteration, adapted to the spirit of the French law, was also extended to St. Lucie.
1062
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 16, 1824
CONSOLIDATION OF THE CRIMINAL
Dr. Lushington
said, that the subject which he was about to introduce to the consideration of the House, was one of the greatest importance, and at the same time of the greatest extent. If it were necessary for him at that moment to enter into the details of the plan which he meant to propose to the committee (if he should be so fortunate as to induce the House to grant one), undoubtedly it would be incumbent on him to offer a detailed explanation of his objects; but, as he understood that there would not be any opposition given to the motion with which he meant to conclude, and as he was sure the House must be extremely anxious to hear the statement of the right hon. secretary for foreign affairs, he should confine those observations which he felt it to be his duty to make, within a very narrow compass. He intended to propose, then, that a committee should be appointed for the purpose of considering the expediency of consolidating and amending the criminal law of England. On the necessity of such a measure, he apprehended it would scarcely be requisite for him to make any observations. The House must be aware that from the time of Magna Charta, down to the present hour, there had been a series of criminal statutes passed, just as occasion had rendered it necessary to provide for the punishment or prevention of any particular offence. As there had hitherto been no regular system for the reduction of those statutes into any order or methodical form, they had at present attained to a considerable bulk, and were in a state of the greatest possible confusion. There had not been, hitherto, any attempt made to remedy the inconveniences which arose out of the existing condition of our criminal laws. Those inconveniences he would not attempt, on this occasion, to detail. He should assume that the House was sensible of them; and all that it would be now necessary for him to satisfy it of would be, that a remedy for such inconveniences was practicable: but he would not proceed to state the grounds upon which he was prepared to contend for the practicability of that remedy, because he was certain that the House was not just now disposed to follow him into all the explanations into which it would be ex-
1063
1064
Mr. J. Smith
rose to second the motion. He was, he said, convinced that the measure proposed by his hon. and learned friend would give the highest possible satisfaction to the country.
The motion was agreed to, and a committee appointed.
PAPERS RELATING TO THE AMELIORATION OF THE CONDITION OF THE
After numerous petitions had been presented to the House, praying for the Abolition of Slavery, Mr. Secretary Canning presented, by command of his Majesty, the following Papers, in explanation of measures for the Amelioration of the Condition of the Slave Population of the West Indies:
DRAUGHT OF AN ORDER IN COUNCIL FOR IMPROVING THE CONDITION OF THE SLAVES IN TRINIDAD.
1. "Whereas it is necessary that provision should be made for the religious instruction of the slaves in his majesty's island of Trinidad, and for the improvement of their condition. And whereas the Procurador Syndic of the Cabildo of the town of Port of Spain, in the said island, hath hitherto performed the duties of the office of protector and guardian of slaves in the said island, and it is expedient that the said office should be more fully established, and that the duties thereof should be more clearly ascertained, and that provision should be made for the support thereof. Be it, therefore, and it is hereby ordered by the king's most excellent majesty, by and with the advice of his privy council, that the Procurador Syndic of the Cabildo of the town of Port of Spain aforesaid shall be, and he is hereby confirmed in his said office of protector and guardian of slaves. And that as such protector and guardian of slaves he shall receive and be paid, at the time and in the manner hereinafter mentioned, such salary as his majesty shall be pleased to appoint; and that such salary shall commence from and after the 24th day of June, in the present year of our Lord, 182; and that on or before that day, if possible, or if not then, so soon afterwards as conveniently may be, the
1065
"I, A. B., do swear that I will, to 'the best of my knowledge and ability, 'faithfully execute and perform the duties 'of the office of protector and guardian of 'slaves in the island of Trinidad, without 'fear, favour or partiality—So help me 'God."
"Provided nevertheless, and it is hereby ordered, that nothing herein contained shall extend to prevent his majesty from disuniting the office of protector and guardian of slaves from the office of Procurador Syndic aforesaid, and from appointing a distinct and separate officer to act as, and be the protector and guardian of slaves, in case his majesty shall see fit so to do.
2. "And it is hereby further ordered, that the said protector and guardian of slaves shall establish and keep an office in the town of Port of Spain in the said island, and shall regularly attend at such office on such days, and during such hours in the day, as the governor or acting-governor of the said colony, by any general or special orders to be by him from time to time issued, may appoint; and shall at such office, and not elsewhere, keep, deposit, and preserve the several records, books, papers, and writings, hereinafter directed to be kept by him.
3. "And it is further ordered, that the said protector and guardian of slaves shall not be the owner or proprietor of any plantation situate within the said island, or of any slaves or slave employed or worked upon any plantation, or in any kind of agriculture, and shall not have any share or interest in, or any mortgage or security upon, any such plantation, slaves, or slave, and shall and is hereby declared to be incompetent to act as, or be the manager, overseer, agent, or attorney of, for, or upon, any plantation or estate within the said island, or to act as the guardian, trustee, or executor of any person or persons, having, or being entitled to any such plantation, or any slaves or slave; and in case any such protector and guardian of slaves within the said island shall have, acquire, hold or possess, either in his own right, or in right of his wife, or in trust for any other persons or person, any plantation situate within the said island, or
1066
de facto,
4. "And it is further ordered, that the said protector and guardian of slaves shall be resident within the said island, and shall not quit the same without a special licence to be granted for that purpose by his majesty, through one of his principal Secretaries of State, or by the governor, or acting-governor for the time being, of the said island; and no such licence shall in any case be granted for any time exceeding three months, nor shall any such licence be granted by any such governor, or acting governor as aforesaid, unless it shall be made to appear to him, on the oath of some medical practitioner, that such absence is necessary for the recovery, of the health of the said protector and guardian of slaves.
5. "And it isfurther ordered, that upon the death or resignation of the said protector and guardian of slaves, or in the event of his sickness, or other bodily or mental incapacity, or during his temporary absence from the said island, it shall be lawful for the governor or acting-governor to nominate and appoint some other fit and proper person to act as the deputy for the said protector and guardian of slaves, until his majesty's pleasure shall be known: and the said deputy shall receive such allowance, to be deducted from and out of the salary of the said protector and guardian of slaves, as the governor, or acting-governor for the time being of the said island, shall be pleased to appoint. Provided always, that no persons shall be appointed or be competent to act as such deputy as aforesaid who,
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6. "And it is hereby further ordered, that the said protector and guardian of slaves shall be, and he is hereby declared to be, a magistrate in and for the said island of Trinidad, and all such powers and authorities, of what nature or kind so ever, as are now by law vested in the commandants of the several quarters of the said island, for the maintenance of the public peace and good order, shall be, and the same are hereby, vested in the said protector or guardian of slaves, to be by him exercised throughout each and every quarter of the said island.
7. "And it is hereby further ordered, that the commandants of the several quarters within the said island shall be, and they are hereby declared to be, assistant protectors and guardians of slaves, in their several and respective quarters; and the said commandants shall, and are hereby required, in their several and respective quarters, to be aiding and assisting the protector and guardian of slaves in the execution of the powers hereby committed to him; and for that purpose to obey and carry into execution such lawful instructions as they may from time to time receive from him, bout, or in relation to, the matters herein mentioned, or any of them.
8. "And it is hereby further ordered, that in all actions, suits, and prosecutions, which may at any time hereafter be brought or commenced in any tribunal or court of justice within the said island, wherein any slave may be charged with any offence punishable by death or transportation, or wherein any question may arise as to the right of any alleged slave to freedom, or wherein any person may be charged with the murder of any slave, or with any offence against the person of any slave, or wherein any question may arise respecting the right of any slave to any such property as he or she is hereinafter declared competent to acquire; then and in every such case such notice shall be given to the
1068
9. "And whereas his majesty hath been graciously pleased to intimate his intention to make effectual provision for the religious instruction of the slaves in the said island of Trinidad; and it will be proper and necessary, so soon as such his majesty's intentions can be carried into effect, that Sunday markets should be utterly abolished throughout the said island—Be it therefore, and it is hereby further ordered, that it shall and may be lawful for the governor, or acting-governor for the time being, of the said island, and he is hereby required, in obedience to any instruction which may for that purpose be issued by his majesty, through one of his principal secretaries of state, to issue a proclamation, in his majesty's name, for the discontinuance of all markets throughout the said island on the Sunday; and so soon as such proclamation shall have been issued, all Sunday markets shall forthwith cease, and be absolutely unlawful; and in any such proclamation, the said governor or acting-governor shall and may, and is hereby authorized to make all such rules and regulations as may be necessary for the effectual suppression of such markets, and to impose such penalties as may be requisite for giving effect to any such rules and regulations. And whereas a certain proclamation or ordinance was, on the 16th day of November, 1823, issued by the governor of the said island of Trinidad, whereby it was and is ordered and declared, "That from and after the first day of December then next, the market holden in the town of the Port of Spain, for the sale of meat, vegetables, and other provisions, on Sundays, and all other markets to be holden on the Sabbath day throughout the island, should be limited to the hour of ten o'clock in the forenoon, and that due warning
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10. "And it is hereby furthe ordered, that if any person or persons within the said island shall work or employ any slave, at any time between the time of sunset on any Saturday, and sunrise on any Monday, or shall, during that period, procure, induce, or compel any slave to perform or engage in any labour, for the profit or advantage of his or her owner, manager, or employer, the person or persons so offending shall incur and become liable to a fine not exceeding fifty, nor less than five dollars. Provided nevertheless, that nothing herein contained shall extend, or be construed to extend, to any work or labour which any slave may perform on Sunday in the necessary attendance upon the person, or in the family, of his or her owner or employer; or in the necessary and unavoidable preservation of the cattle or live stock upon any plantation.
11. "And it is further ordered and declared, that it is and shall henceforth be illegal for any person or persons within the said island of Trinidad, to carry any whip, cat, or other instrument of the like nature, while superintending the labour of
1071
12. "And it is further ordered and declared, that it is and shall henceforth be illegal for any persons or person to inflict, in any one day, upon any male slave, for any crime or offence, or upon any ground or for any reason whatever, any number of stripes or lashes exceeding twenty-five in the whole, or to inflict upon any such male slave any punishment or correction by the whipping, scourging, or beating of his person, unless the person of such slave shall, at the time of such punishment or correction, be free from any laceration occasioned by any former whipping, scourging, or beating, or to inflict upon any such male slave any punishment or correction by the whipping, scourging, or beating of his person, until twenty-four hours at the least shall have elapsed from the time of the commission of the offence for, or in respect of which any such punishment or correction may be so inflicted; or to inflict upon any such male
1072
13. "And it is hereby further ordered, that henceforth it shall not be lawful to correct or punish by flogging or whipping, any female slave within the island of Trinidad, for any offence committed or alleged to be committed by any such slave; and if any person or persons within the said island shall flog, whip, or correct any female slave, with any whip, cat, stick, or other such like instrument, the person or persons so offending, and each and every person who shall or may direct, authorize, instigate, procure, or be aiding, assisting, or abetting, in any such correction or punishment as aforesaid, of any such female slave, shall be and be deemed, adjudged, and taken to be guilty of a misdemeanour, and being thereof convicted, shall suffer such punishment as is
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14. "And it is hereby further ordered, that there shall be kept upon every plantation and estate throughout the said island, a book to be called "The Plantation Record Book," and that it shall be the duty of the owner, proprietor, manager, or other person, having the direction of, and the chief authority in, the said plantation, to enter and record in the said book, at or immediately after the time of the infliction of any punishment whatsoever, on any female slave, or on any male slave, who may be punished with any number of stripes exceeding three, a statement of the nature and particulars of the offence for or in respect of which such punishment may be inflicted: and the time at which, and the place where, such offence was committed; and the time at which, and the place where such punishment was inflicted; and of the nature, extent, and particulars of
1074
15. "And it is hereby further ordered, that if any person, being the owner, proprietor or manager, of any plantation or estate within the said island, or having the management thereof, or the chief authority therein, shall neglect or omit to make in the said Plantation Record Book, any entry which, according to the provisions of this present order, ought to be made therein, or shall not make such entry within two days next after the infliction of each and every punishment, to which the same may refer, the person so offending shall incur and become subject and liable to a penalty not exceeding one hundred pounds, nor less than five pounds sterling, British money; to be recovered and applied in manner hereinafter mentioned. And if any person or persons shall wilfully or fraudulently make, or cause or procure to be made, any false entry or fraudulent erasure in any such Plantation Record Book, or shall wilfully or fraudulently burn, destroy, cancel, or obliterate the name or any parts or part thereof, the person or persons so offending shall be, and be deemed and taken to be, guilty of a misdemeanour, and being thereof convicted, shall suffer such punishment as is hereinafter provided.
16. "And it is hereby further ordered, that every owner, proprietor, or manager, or other person having the chief authority within each and every plantation or estate within the said island, shall, on the first Monday which shall happen next after the 5th day of April, the 24th day of June, the 29th day of September, and the 25th day of December, in each year, repair to the commandant for the time being Of the quarter in which such plantation or estate may be situate, and then and there produce before him a precise and exact transcript of every entry, which during the quarter of a year next preceding may have been made in the Plantation Record Book, of his or her plantation or estate; and shall also take and subscribe an oath to be annexed to the said transcript in the following words (that is to say),
1075
"I, A. B., the owner or manager (as the case may be) of the plantation, called, in the quarter, in The island of Trinidad, do make Oath and Say, that the paper writing hereunto annexed contains a true and exact copy of every entry which, since the day of last, hath been made in the Plantation Record Book of the before-mentioned plantation. And I do further swear, that the said Plantation Record Book hath been punctually and accurately kept, since the said day of in the manner by law required, and that no fraudulent erasure or false entry hath been made therein ay me, or by any person by my procurement, or with my knowledge or consent. So help me God."
"And in case any such owner or manager, as aforesaid, shall not, since the time of making his last preceding return to the commandant of the quarter, have inflicted, or caused to be inflicted, any punishment upon any female slave, on his plantation or estate, or any punishment on any male slave, exceeding three lashes, then, and in every such case, in lieu of the oath aforesaid, such owner or manager shall, at the several times aforesaid, take and subscribe before the commandant of the quarter in which such plantation may be situate, an bath, in the following words (that is to say),
"I, A. B., do swear, that since the day of now last past, no punishment hath been inflicted by me, or by my order, or with my knowledge, upon Any female slave belonging or attached to the plantation called situate in the quarter of whereof I am manager. And that no punishment hath since the said day of been inflicted upon any male slave, belonging or attached to the said plantation, exceeding three lashes. And I further swear that no entry of any such punishments hath since the said day of been made in the Plantation Record Book of the said Plantation. So help me God."
17. "Provided always, and it is further Ordered, That the commandant of each, and every quarter, within the said island, shall, fourteen days at the least before the time Of making the returns transmit to the owner or manager of every plantation Situate within his quarter, a printed blank form of the before-mentioned affidavits, together with a notice of the time and place at which he will attend, for the purpose of receiving the returns, and ad-
1076
18. "And it is hereby ordered, that if any person or persons shall refuse or neglect to make any return, ox to take and subscribe the oaths required by this present Order, the person or persons so offending shall incur, and become liable to the payment of a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds, nor less than ten pounds, sterling British money; to be recovered and applied in manner after-mentioned.
19. "And it is hereby further ordered, that the commandant of each and every quarter in the said island shall, and he is hereby required to transmit to the protector and guardian of slaves of the said island, at his office in the town of Port of Spain, the whole of the returns so to be made to him as aforesaid, together with the original affidavits thereunto annexed, within fourteen days next after such quarterly returns shall be complete. And in case any such commandant shall himself be the owner or manager of any plantation, he shall, together with the said returns, deliver to the said protector and guardian of slaves a transcript of the entries in his own plantation book for the last preceding quarter of a year, together with an affidavit to be by him sworn before the chief judge, or some one of the alcaldes in ordinary of the said island, in the manner and form hereinbefore described, under such and the like penalty as is hereinbefore mentioned, in the case of other persons refusing or neglecting to make their returns or to take the before-mentioned oaths.
20. "And it is hereby further ordered, that the said protector of slaves shall record and enrol in books, to be by him' kept for that purpose, the whole of the returns so to be made to him, and shall
1077
21. "And it is hereby ordered, that upon the prosecution of any person, being the owner, proprietor, or manager of any plantation, for inflicting or causing or procuring to be inflicted, on any slave or slaves, any punishment hereby declared illegal, if the slave so alleged to have been illegally punished shall be produced in open court, and if the marks or traces of recent flogging or laceration shall appear on the person of such slave, and if such slave shall in open court declare such traces to be the consequences of any such unlawful punishment or correction, and being duly examined by the said court shall make a particular, consistent, and probable statement of all the circumstances attendant on such unlawful punishment, then, and in every such case, although such slave should not be a competent witness within the provisions of this present order, the owner, proprietor, manager, or other person having the charge of such slave, shall be bound to prove either that the punishment, of which the marks or traces may be so apparent, was not inflicted by him, or by his procurement, or with his knowledge or consent, or that such punishment was a lawful punishment within the meaning of this order, and was inflicted in the presence of one such witness of free condition as is required by this present order; and in default of such proof, such owner, proprietor, manager, or other person as afore, said, shall be convicted and adjudged to be guilty of the offence imputed to him; and it is further ordered, that every such prosecution as aforesaid shall be conducted by the protector and guardian of slaves, and that it shall not be lawful for him to discontinue any such prosecution, except by virtue of an order in writing, to be for that purpose issued under his hand and seal by the governor or acting-governor for the time being of the said island.
22. "And it is further ordered, that any
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23. "And it is further ordered, that it shall not be lawful in the execution of any judgment, sentence, decree, or order of any tribunal, of any court of justice within the said island, to seize or sell in satisfaction thereof any slave having a husband or wife, or a child under the age of six teen years, or a reputed husband or wife, or child under the age aforesaid, who may be the property of the same persons or person, unless such husband, and wife, and child, or reputed husband, wife, or child, shall be sold together, and in one and the same lot, and to the same persons or person. And if in the execution of any such judgment, sentence, decree, or order, any slave or slaves shall be sold separate or apart from any such husband, or wife, or child, or reputed husband, or wife, or child as aforesaid, then and in every such case such sale and execution shall be, and the same is hereby declared to be, absolutely null in the law to all intents and purposes whatsoever.
24. And whereas, by the usage of the said island of Trinidad, persons in a state of slavery have hitherto been reputed competent in the law, and have in fact been permitted to acquire, hold, and enjoy property free from the control or interference of their owners. And it is expedient that the said laudable custom should be recognized and established by law, and that provision should be made for enabling such slaves to invest such their property on good security. Be it therefore, and it is hereby ordered and declared, that no person in the island of Trinidad being in a state of slavery shall be, or be deemed, or taken to be, by reason or on account of such his condition, incompetent to pur-
1080
25. "And it is hereby further ordered, that savings banks shall be established within the said island, for the better pre serving the property of any such slaves, and that interest, at and after the rate of five pounds per cent per annum, shall be allowed upon the amount of every sum of money which may be deposited in any such savings banks, which interest shall be a charge upon the general revenues of the said island. And any slave making any deposit of money in any such savings banks, shall be at liberty to make a declaration of the manner in which and the names of the person or persons to whom, in the event of his or her death, the amount of his contributions to the said savings banks shall be paid, applied, and disposed of; and such declaration shall be recorded in a book to be kept for that purpose at the savings banks, where such deposit may be made, and upon the death of the slave making such declaration, the same shall be deemed and taken to be the last will and testament of such slave, in the absence of any other last will: and in case any such slave shall marry after having made any such declaration, such marriage shall be, and be deemed and taken to be, a revocation in the law of such declaration; and it is further ordered, that in case any slaves or slave in the said island shall die intestate, and without having made any such declaration as aforesaid, which may remain unrevoked at the time of his death, then, and in every such case, the property of such slave shall go, and be disposed of, to and in favour or such persons or person as by virtue of the several acts of parliament for the distribution of intestates' estates, would, according to the law of England, be entitled to any such property.
26. "And it is hereby further ordered, that the saving banks throughout the said
1081
27. "And it is hereby further ordered, that no deposit of money shall at any one time, or within any one week, be received at any of the said savings banks, from any slave, exceeding the sum of twenty dollars in the whole, unless such slave, at the time of tendering any such deposit, shall produce the consent in writing of his owner or manager to such deposit being made; and in case any slave shall be desirous at any one time, or in any one week, to make any such deposit of money exceeding the sum of twenty dollars, and the owner or manager of such slave shall refuse his consent to such deposit being made, then and in every such case, the protector and guardian of slaves, upon application to him for that purpose made, shall issue a summons under his hand and seal, requiring the owner or manager of such slave, or the persons under whose direction such slave may be, to appear before him, by themselves or their agents, at some convenient time and place to be for that purpose appointed; and if such owner or manager, or other person as aforesaid, being duly cited, shall fail to appear before the said protector of slaves, or appearing shall fail to lay before him good and sufficient cause why such de-posit ought not to be made, then and in every such case the said protector and guardian of slaves shall issue an order under his hand and seal, requiring the manager of the savings bank to receive the amount of such deposit, and the same shall be received by him accordingly.
28. "And it is hereby further ordered, that no duty, tax, or impost, of any nature or kind whatsoever, and that no fee of office shall be hereafter paid or payable within the said island, upon, for, or on
1082
29. "And it is hereby further ordered, that in case any slave within the said island shall be desirous to purchase the freedom of himself or herself, or of his or her wife, or husband, or child, or brother, or sister, or reputed wife or husband, or child, or brother, or sister, it shall and may be lawful to and for any such slave so to purchase the freedom of himself or herself, or of any such other person as aforesaid; and if the owner or proprietor of any such slave shall be unwilling to effect his or her manumission, or shall, by reason of any mortgage, settlement, lease, or other charge upon, or interest in, such slave being vested in any other person or persons, be unable to execute a valid and effectual manumission of any such slave, or if the owner or proprietor, or any other person having an interest in any such slave, shall be a minor, or a married woman, or idiot, or lunatic, or if the real and true owner of any such slave shall be absent from the said island, or shall not be known, or if any suit or action shall be depending in any court of justice in the said island, wherein the title to the said slave, or the right to his services shall or may be in controversy, or if the owner of any such slave shall demand, as the price of his or her freedom, a greater sum of money than may be the fair and just value thereof, then, and in each and every of the cases aforesaid, the chief judge of the said island, on application made to him for that purpose by the protector and guardian of slaves, shall issue a summons under his hand and sea), requiring the owner or manager of
1083
30. "And it is hereby further ordered, that at the time appointed for any such meeting as aforesaid, the chief judge of the said island, in the presence of the protector and guardian of slaves, and also in the presence of the owner or manager of the slaves or slave proposed to be manumitted, or (upon proof being made to him, upon oath, of the due service and publication of such notice as aforesaid, then, if necessary), in the absence of such owner or manager, shall proceed to hear in a summary way, what may be alleged by the said protector and guardian of slaves, and by the owner or manager, or other persons claiming any interest in the slave proposed to be manumitted; and in case the parties, or any of them, shall refuse to effect such manumission, or if it shall appear to the said chief judge, that a valid and effectual manumission of any such slave cannot legally be effected by private contract, or if it shall be made to appear to the said chief judge, that the owner or proprietor of any such slave, or that any person haying a charge upon or interest in him or her, is a minor, or a married woman, or idiot, or lunatic, or that the real and true owner of any such slave, or that any person having any charge upon, or interest in him, or her, is absent from the said island, or is unknown., or cannot be found, or that any suit of action is depending in any court of justice in the said island, wherein the title to the said slave or the right to his or her services is in controversy, or if it shall appear to the said chief judge, that any difference of opinion exists between the protector and guardian of slaves of the said island, and the owner or proprietor of any such slave respecting his or her price or value, then, and in every, such
1084
31. "And it is hereby further ordered, that upon payment to the treasurer of the said island of the appraised value of any such slave as aforesaid, after deducting therefrom the expense of the appraisement to be allowed by the said chief judge, the said treasurer shall grant to the protector of slaves a receipt for the money so to be received by him. And such receipt shall be duly enrolled in the office of registry in the said island, together with a declaration under the hand and seal of the said chief judge, that the proceedings required by law for the manumission of the slave by or on behalf of whom such money was paid, had been duly had before him, and thereupon such slave shall be and be deemed, taken, and reputed to be, free to all intents and purposes whatsoever.
32. "And it is further ordered, that the money to arise from the manumission of any slave by virtue of the proceeding before mentioned, shall and may be laid out and invested under the authority of the chief judge, on the application of any person or persons interested therein in the purchase of any other slave or slaves; or if no such application shall be made, then such money shall remain in the hands of the public treasurer of the said island, at
1085
33. "And it is hereby further ordered, that before the manumission of any slave by virtue of any private contract for that purpose, between such slave and his owner, notice of such intended manumission shall, by the owner of such slave, be given in writing to the protector and guardian of slaves, who on behalf of the said slave, shall be bound to ascertain that such owner has good right and title in the law, and is competent to effect such manumission; and the said protector and guardian of slaves shall also, without fee or reward, prepare the proper deed of manumission, and the same shall, in all cases, be executed in the presence of the said protector and guardian of slaves, or of some proper witness, to be by him appointed for that purpose, and being so executed, shall by such protector and guardian of slaves be enrolled in the office of registry in the said island, within one calendar month next after the date and execution thereof. And in case any such deed shall not be left for enrolment at the said office of registry within the said period of one calendar month, the said protector of slaves shall incur and be liable to the payment of a fine not exceeding pounds, nor less than pounds, sterling English money.
1086
34. "And it is hereby ordered, that in case any such deed of manumission as. aforesaid shall be executed voluntarily and without any valuable consideration passing to the owner or other person effecting such manumission, the slave or slaves so to be manumitted shall before the actual execution of any such deed, appear before the said protector and guardian of slaves, or before the commandant of the quarter in which such slave may happen to be resident; and if it shall appear to the said protector and guardian of slaves, or to such commandant, as the case may be, that the slave about to be so gratuitously manumitted, is under the age of six years, or above the age of fifty years, or is labouring under any habitual disease or infirmity of mind or body, the owner or other person about to effect such manumission shall, at the time of the execution of the deed of manumission execute and deliver under his hand and seal a bond to his majesty in the penal sum of two hundred pounds, with a condition there under written for the defeazance thereof, if the said slave shall be properly fed, clothed, and maintained until he age of fourteen years in the case of infants, or during the term of his or her natural life, in the case of adults of the age of fifty years, or labouring under any such sickness, disease, or infirmity as aforesaid; and no such manumission shall be valid and effectual in the law^ or shall be received for enrolment at the office of registry, until such bond as aforesaid be duly executed, and deposited at the said office.
35. "And it is hereby further ordered, that every clergyman of the established church of England, and every minister of the Kirk of Scotland, and every priest or minister professing the Roman Catholic religion, in the said island, and every other person being a public teacher of religion within the said island, shall, and is hereby authorized to transmit or deliver under his hand to the commandant of the quarter in which he may be resident, certificates setting forth the names or name and places or place of abode of any slaves or slave, who, in the judgment and belief of the party so certifying, may be sufficiently instructed in the principles of religion to understand the nature and obligation of an oath. And the commandants of the several quarters in the said island shall, and are hereby required to, transmit such certificates as aforesaid to
1087
36. "And it is further ordered, that no person shall henceforth be rejected as a witness, or considered as incompetent to give evidence in any court of civil or criminal justice in the said island, by reason of his or her being in a state of slavery, if the person or persons producing or tendering him or her as a witness shall produce and exhibit to the court a certificate under the hand of the said protector and guardian of slaves, that such proposed witness is registered in the before mentioned book; and the protector of slaves shall, and he is hereby required to grant, without fee or reward, to any person making application for the same, a certificate of the fact, whether any such proposed witness is or is not registered in the said book; provided, nevertheless, that no person being in a state of slavery shall be admitted to give evidence in any civil suit or action in which his or her owner is directly concerned, or in any case where any white person may be charged with or prosecuted for any offence punishable with death; provided also, that nothing herein contained shall extend or be construed to extend, to render any slave a competent witness in any case in which such slave would be incompetent to give evidence if he or she were of free condition.
37. "And it is hereby further ordered, that the salary of the protector and guardian of slaves shall by him be taken and received in lieu and in full satisfaction of
1088
38. "And it is hereby further ordered, that the said protector and guardian of slaves, shall on the first Monday next after the 25th day of December, and on the first Monday next after the 24th day of June, in each year, deliver to the governor or acting-governor for the time being of the said island, a report in writing, exhibiting an account of the manner in which the duties of such his office have been performed during the half year next preceding the date of such his report; and especially stating the number of the actions, suits, and prosecutions, in which he may have acted as the protector of any slave or slaves, with the dates and effects of all the proceedings therein, and the particulars of all the returns which by virtue of this order may have been made to him by the commandants of the several quarters within the said island; and the names of the persons, if any, against whom he may have instituted any criminal prosecutions, under and by virtue of this order, together with a statement of the names of all slaves who may have been certified" to him as being competent to give evidence in any court of justice, together with the number of licences which may by him have been granted for the marriage of any slaves, with the number of marriages appearing to have been solemnized in pursuance thereof, together with the amount of the sums of money deposited in any savings banks, in the said island, together with a statement of the names of all the slaves manumitted under the authority of this present order; and the governor or acting-governor for the time being of the said colony, shall thereupon administer to the said protector of slaves an oath that such report contains a true and accurate statement of the several matters and things therein referred to: and when and so soon as the said protector of slaves shall have made such his
1089
39. "And it is further ordered, that if the protector and guardian of slaves or any commandant of any quarter in the said island, or any other person, shall wilfully and fraudulently make, or cause or procure to be made, any erasure or interlineation in any of the books, records, or re turns herein before required to be made, or shall wilfully falsify any such books, records or returns or shall wilfully make, or cause or procure to be made, any false entry in any such book, record, or return, or shall wilfully and fraudulently burn, cancel, or obliterate the same, or either of them, or any part thereof, the person or persons so offending shall be, and be deemed, adjudged, and taken to be guilty of a misdemeanour, and being thereof convicted, shall suffer such punishment as is hereinafter directed.
40."And it is further ordered, that any of the people called Quakers who may be resident in the said island, being required to take any of the oaths prescribed by this present order, may, and they are hereby authorised to make their, his, or her solemn affirmation in lieu of such oaths; and that any person taking any oath, or, being a Quaker, making his solemn affirmation under or in pursuance of this order, who shall be convicted of swearing or affirming falsely, shall incur and suffer such punishment as by the law of the said island may be inflicted on any persons guilty of wilful and corrupt perjury.
41. "And it is hereby further ordered, that any person who may be convicted of any act hereby declared to be misdemeanour, shall, if of free condition, be and become liable to a fine not exceeding five hundred pounds, and not less than fifty pounds, sterling English money, or to imprisonment for any time not exceeding six months nor less than one month, or both to fine and imprisonment, at the dis-
1090
42. "And be it further ordered, that if any person shall be twice convicted before any tribunal in the said island of inflicting upon any slave any cruel or unlawful punishment, the person so convicted shall, in addition to the penalties hereinbefore mentioned, be declared by the court before which such second conviction may take place, absolutely incapable in the law to be the owner or proprietor, or to act as the manager, overseer or superintendent of any slaves or slave within the said island; and all and every the slaves or slave, of which, at the time, of such second conviction, any such person may be the owner or proprietor, shall thenceforth become, and be absolutely forfeited to and vested in his majesty his heirs and successors.
43. "And it is further ordered, that the governor or acting governor of the said island shall, within one month next after this present order shall be received by him, make known the same by proclamation throughout the said island; and that the said order shall be in force in one calendar month next after the date of such proclamation and not before.
"And the right honorable Henry Earl Bathurst, one of his majesty's principal secretaries of state, having the department of the colonies, is to give the necessary directions herein."
By The King
A proclamation
"GEORGE R.
"Whereas it has been represented to us, that the slaves in some of our West-India Colonies and of our Possessions on the Continent of South America, have been
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"Given at our Court at Carlton House, this 10th day of March, 1824, and in the 5th year of our reign. "God save the King."
The said papers were ordered to lie on the table.
AMELIORATION OF THE CONDITION OF
Mr. Secretary Canning
then proceeded to address the House as follows:
1092
nem. con
Mr. Secretary Canning
continued.—I am desirous, Sir, that the House should have present to its mind the text of these resolutions; because it is by the spirit and meaning of them, that the conduct of his majesty's government has been guided. These resolutions therefore, and not any more sweeping principle, or any more wide-spread theory, constitute the criterion by which the conduct of the government is to be judged.
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1094
1095
status
1096
1097
1098
1099
"CŒlumque tueri
Jussus, et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus;"—
1100
1101
1102
1103
1104
1105
1106
arcanum
penetralia
"Quos ego—sed motos præstat componere fluctus."
1107
1108
1109
1110
1111
piracy
1112
Mr. Fowell Buxton
rose, and addressed the House nearly as follows:—
Mr. Speaker
—In rising to express my sentiments upon the subject of the communications which we have just received, I think I cannot do better than to draw at once the broad line of distinction which presents itself to my mind. My feelings are not only different, but totally opposite, on several parts of that statement. To one part I can give my ready and cordial approbation: whilst I have listened to another, and that unfortunately—delicately as it was handled, and rapidly as it was dismissed—by far the most important portion, with no other feelings than those of pain and disappointment.
1113
1114
1115
1116
1117
1118
1119
1120
A
A
A
1121
1122
1123
A
1124
is
1125
1126
1127
1128
1129
1130
1131
1132
"Cœlum tueri,
Et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus."
os sublime
"Cœlum tueri,
Et erectos ad sidera tollere vultus."—
"—it hurts his faculties; impedes
His progress in the road of Science, blinds
The eye-sight of discovery; and begets
In those that suffer it a sordid mind,
Bestial; a meagre intellect, unfit
To be the tenant of man's noble form."
venditioni exponas
1133
1134
Mr. C. Ellis,
rose, and said:—
1135
*
*
"If any proprietor were wantonly to brand his slave, and that slave should complain of the act to a magistrate, an investigation would follow, and such branding would be considered as bringing the master within the terms "wantonly maltreating" in the 25th section of the consolidated slave law, and subject him
1136
Having stated unequivocally as I have done, my own unaltered opinion with respect to the measures which have been recommended for the adoption of the colonies, I must beg to be as distinctly understood, that those opinions were given on my part, as well as on that of all those gentlemen who, as I have stated, concurred in them, subject to modifications, both as to the time and the detail of carrying them into execution; and specially, that they depended on the assumption of the existence of feelings, on the part of the white and the black inhabitants towards each other, of content and attachment to their masters on the part of the negroes; of confidence in the fidelity of the negroes on the part of the masters, which we knew at that time to exist—which we trusted would continue; but which have since unfortunately been (I hope I may say only) interrupted. When I was myself in Jamaica, I resided amidst a population of a thousand negroes, in a house in which neither door nor window was shut by night or day. I do not feel sure that I could venture to do the same at this moment. As to the causes which have produced this change, I do not know that it will answer any good purpose to say more, than that it is most unfortunate, and for no reason more so, than on account of the impediments which it interposes to the improvement of the condition of the negroes.
The hon. gentleman, in his observations on the subject of their condition, has done me the honour to pay me some compliments at the expense of my countrymen. [Mr. Buxton said, "No."] Sir, lam glad to hear the hon. gentleman's disclaimer. I could not have accepted the compliment, had it been offered in the terms which I supposed. But, as the hon. gentleman has been pleased to admit in other planters the same disposition which he has kindly attributed to myself, he has
to an indictment in the supreme court of judicature, or any assize court of the island; and upon conviction, to fine or imprisonment, or both. In proof that these laws are carried into execution, we refer the reader to the following cases.
"In the year 1818, an individual of the name of Boyden, had branded a female slave on the shoulders and breast. She applied to a justice of the peace, who instantly removed her from the further control of the master, and called a meeting
1137
rendered it unnecessary for me to enter into a general defence of their conduct; I will, therefore, only repeat, that the change which has taken place in the feelings of the negroes towards their masters, is peculiarly unfortunate, as an impediment to any immediate amelioration of their condition. Whilst the negroes are expecting that every packet will bring them out the "Paper," as they term it, which is to make them free; while they believe, that the parliament wishes to confer upon them their freedom, but that their masters withhold it from them, is it possible that their feelings towards their masters should be such as are compatible with contentment, or even with due subordination? On the other hand, while their masters are impressed with the belief, that the negroes are only watching the opportunity of seizing their freedom by violence; whilst they have impressed upon their minds all the horrors attendant upon such attempt; it cannot be expected, that their feelings towards their negroes should be such as to induce them to concede privileges or to relax discipline. In a word, can the feelings of either party towards the other be such as to be compatible with that improvement in the condition of the negroes, and in the whole system of society in those Countries, which it is the wish of this
of the justices and vestry of the parish in which the parties resided, who by virtue of an authority given to them by law, caused a prosecution to be instituted against the master, at the expense of the parish. The woman was brought into court, and the marks exhibited to the jury, who, without hesitation, found the defendant guilty. He was sentenced by the court to six months' imprisonment in the common gaol, and was deprived of all property in the slave. She was declared free by the court, and to be for ever discharged from servitude, agreeably to the powers given to the judges by the Slave-act of 1816.
"Another case, occurred on the 14th August, 1823, on which day Judge Scarlett, passed sentence upon John Baptiste Cadore for branding a slave,
viz.,
1138
House to bring about? It is essential, in the first place, for the feelings excited in the breasts of both parties to subside. It is necessary to allay the exaggerated expectations of the one, and to abate the well-founded fears of the other. With this view the proclamation which it is understood is to be sent out by the next packet, is a prudent and judicious measure, and will, it is to be hoped, produce salutary effect.
But far more important, with a view to ulterior and permanent good—indeed as the only sure foundation for whatever further benefits it may be intended to bestow on the negroes—is the plan which has been announced to the House, and explained by my right hon. friend, for the improvement of their moral condition, by the means of religious instruction. I sincerely rejoice that the government have at length determined to increase and reform the church establishment in the colonies. It has hither to been miserably inadequate. The patronage has not been placed in the proper hands, and the selection has not been always judiciously exercised. The extent of the parishes, which are equal in size to English counties, has rendered the general instruction of their parishioners a work beyond the physical powers of the parochial clergy, and the distance of many of the plantations from the parish church has made the attendance at divine service impossible to a great majority of the inhabitants. Hence has arisen an habitual inattention to the performance of religious duties, and an impression has been created, that the clergy of the church of England are unfit for the duties and exertions required of them in those countries. Such an impression is, as I believe, most unjust. Certainly it is not founded on experience, for the experiment has not hitherto been fairly tried.
I know, from means of information which have lately been opened to me, and I feel it a duty of justice to state it, that the missionaries of the established church, who have been sent out by the society for the conversion and education of the negro slaves in our colonies, though less numerous, on account of the limited means of that society, have individually been not less successful than the missionaries sent out by any of the sectarian societies. That latterly, since those means have been increased, there has been no difficulty in increasing their number; and
1139
With a view to the accomplishment of the other object, that of tranquillizing the minds of the white inhabitants, much good is to be expected from the prudent and judicious course pointed out by my right honourable friend, as that which it is the intention of the government to pursue, as veil as from the liberal, yet temperate principles which are contained in his speech. When the colonial legislatures find that the government and parliament of Great Britain do not intend to employ for the enforcement of those measures to which they look, as it is expressed in the resolutions of this House, for "that progressive improvement in the character of the slave population, which may prepare them for a participation in those civil rights and privileges which are enjoyed by other classes of his majesty's subjects"—when they find that they do not intend to employ, for the enforcement of those measures, the
ultima ratio
ad verecundiam,
1140
Having stated my approbation of the course pointed out by my right hon. friend, it is necessary for me to explain, that there are two of the measures announced by him, which are not included in the pledge which I have stated to have been given by gentlemen connected with the colonies—I mean the admissibility of slaves as witnesses, and the compulsory power proposed to be given to the slave of purchasing his freedom.
With regard to the first of these propositions, I have no hesitation in saying, as far as my own opinion is concerned, that I entertain no objection to that concession which would not be obviated by the modifications proposed by my right hon. friend. I consider it indeed essential, that the exercise of that privilege should be restricted by the knowledge which the slave may be proved to have of the obligation of an oath—that it might be proper to require a certificate to that effect, and also perhaps of general good character, and to except all cases in which the interest of the master might be directly implicated in the evidence of the slave-But subject to such qualifications and exceptions, I should hope that the concession might be safely made, and if safe, it would, I think, be most proper to grant it.
With regard to the second proposition, I confess I entertain more serious apprehensions. It is a measure, of which it is impossible at the first blush, to embrace all the various and remote effects in its bearings upon the state of society in the colonies. Numerous objections, however, present themselves to the mind at the first sight of it, as to its execution in various points of detail: first, as affecting the property of the master; next as affecting the comfort of the slave; and, lastly, as tending to counteract even the ultimate object of the measure itself.
1141
For these objections no satisfactory solution has yet offered itself to my mind, and I cannot but think, that these objections could scarcely have failed to suggest themselves to the comprehensive mind of my right hon. friend, if the multiplicity of his other avocations could have afforded him the opportunity of considering the practical details of this measure as maturely as they deserve.
Indeed, I think that my right hon. friend would have done better, with a view to the more safe, and I believe the less distant, accomplishment of the very object of this measure—the extinction of slavery—if he had not departed from the principles laid down by the abolitionists themselves, and expressed by their own organ, in a Report published by the African Institution, in which, while they repel with indignation, all imputation of having in contemplation any other more abrupt means, they declare, that they look only to the extinction of slavery "by the same happy means which had put an end to it in England,"—"by the encouragement (not compulsion) of particular manumissions,"—"to an emancipation of which, not the slaves, but the masters, should be the willing instruments."
Having referred to the disposition and feelings of the white inhabitants of the West Indies, it would be disingenuous in me not to state, that I regret exceedingly the temper in which the suggestions of the government have been received in some of the colonies. But, after making that admission, I must beg leave to call upon the House, in judging of the conduct of the colonies, to take into their consideration, the impressions, the feelings, and the circumstances, under which they acted. It is evident that they acted under the impression, that a threat was implied in the resolutions of this House, of enforcing the measures there referred to, by means which they considered as interfering with their constitutional rights, as invading their property, and likely to disturb the internal tranquillity. Nobody can be less disposed than I am to argue that such is a correct understanding of those resolutions, on the contrary, I consider it to be an understanding not justified by the construction of the words, and practically contradicted by the course adopted by the House. And it has since received a still more satisfactory contradiction, in the speech delivered by my right hon. friend, as well as by the course now adopted by the government.
1142
But, whatever may be the opinion of gentlemen as to the degree in which such a construction may, or may not, have been justifiable, the mere fact of the existence of such a misconception of those resolutions on the part of the colonists, would naturally lead the House to anticipate that upon its removal there would be a material change in their disposition.
It is to be recollected also, that the report of the debate, and the knowledge of these Resolutions, had scarcely reached the colonies, when they were followed by the breaking out of the insurrection in Demerara, and followed by it so closely, that they could scarcely fail to appear to the inhabitants, of the other colonies to be connected as cause and effect. There was nothing so peculiar in the situation of Demerara, or in the circumstances attending that insurrection, as to justify any confidence of greater security in arty other colony. All the circumstances which transpired with respect to the causes of that insurrection, and the plots which were subsequently discovered in the other colonies, tended only to justify that impression. I would ask the House then, whether it is to be expected, that persons who were living in the midst of such dangers could view them as calmly as gentlemen in this House, who contemplate them at 4000 miles distance—whether it is not natural, that, under such' circumstances, they should think their first duty self-preservation—that their first care should be, to guard against a similar calamity; and, if they should have-heard that their fears had been described by the hon. gentleman who brought forward this question last year, as "extravagant apprehensions," as "predictions always falsified by fact;" if they should have seen, in a publication referred to by that hon. gentleman himself in his speech to-night, and sent forth into the world by the Society who have associated themselves for the accomplishment of the object of which that hon. gentleman has stood forward as the champion; if they should have seen, that they are there accused of "getting up plots" for popular impression, "plots issuing in blood, not of whites, but of blacks in abundance"—is it unnatural that they should feel, and, feeling, that they should express, some resentment at imputations so foul—at so insulting a mode of treating their just apprehensions of so dreadful a calamity? And if they should have allowed their indignation to
1143
If there are any gentlemen who are inclined to act harshly or resentfully towards the colonies, I would conjure them to follow the admonitions rather than the example of my right hon. friend. I would conjure them not to lose sight of what becomes the dignity of this House, as the representatives of this great country; but, to bear in mind, that the more they may be disposed to find fault with the colonial legislatures for any intemperance which they may have exhibited, the more it behoves them not to fall into a similar error—an error in them more unbecoming and less excusable. Even if they should participate in all the distrust of the colonial legislature, which has been avowed by the hon. member for Weymouth, I would conjure them to recollect, that they have no other instruments to work with than
1144
compel
Mr. Wilberforce
commenced his speech by observing, that if he had come into that House for the first time, and had heard the beautiful and flowing language of his right hon. friend which had communicated so much delight to the House, he should no doubt have rejoiced, that the blessings to be derived from his right hon. friend's plan for the amelioration of the condition of so many thousands of his fellow creatures, were about to be extended to so large a portion of the human race as the population of the island of Trinidad. But that feeling was overborne by the consideration, that, after what had passed in that House during the last session, that plan was not to be carried into effect to a much greater extent. It was therefore necessary for him to consider, how far he. was opposed to his right hon. friend on the present occasion.
1145
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1147
1148
1149
1150
1151
1152
1153
l
1154
1155
1156
Mr. Keith Douglas
expressed his sincere regret, that the honourable members for Weymouth and Bramber had not, in conformity with the recommendation and the example of the right hon. secretary of state for foreign affairs, abstained from the introduction into the debate of topics of an irritating nature; since the question before them was one which ought to be treated with the utmost caution and moderation. Instead of which, those hon. gentlemen had cited a number of particulars, which were not at all calculated to have an healing effect. In opposition to the insinuations of those hon. gentlemen, he would strenuously contend, that the colonial assemblies were most anxiously alive to every thing which concerned the welfare of the slave population. In the course of the last year, there had been hardly one of the colonial legislatures, with the exception of Jamaica, in which this question had not been maturely considered. In Tobago, and the other islands, laws had been passed, which went to
1157
Mr. Baring
said, he could have little hope that he should be able to command the attention of the House, after the beautiful speech which they had just heard from his hon. friend, the member for Bramber, whose speeches were always calculated to produce a powerful effect. He was, however, anxious to impress upon the House, the strong sense he felt, in common with his hon. friend, as to the imminent state of the present question. It appeared to him impossible that the country could now halt between two opinions. In justice to the poor creatures whose situation they wished to ameliorate on the one hand, and in justice to the planters who had so much at stake on the other, the House could no longer stand still: they must proceed, and do something decisive. His majesty's government should no longer suffer itself to be blown about, session after session, by every wind; at one time, in obedience to the wishes of the West-Indian interests, and, at another, in deference to the opinion of that party, which for shortness, he would call "the Saints" [a laugh].
1158
1159
1160
1161
1162
1163
1164
1165
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that the hon. gentleman who had last spoken, had made a most severe charge against his majesty's government, and indeed had broadly pronounced its condemnation in the beginning of his speech, in such a manner as might have produced a very powerful effect, if the hon. gentleman's own admissions, as he went on, had not afforded
1166
1167
1168
1169
animus
Dr. Lushington
said, that his hope of the active and cordial co-operation of the colonial legislatures was, he confessed, extremely small; and that, in this respect, the right hon. the secretary of state for foreign affairs seemed to entertain a directly opposite opinion from that which the right hon. gentleman had expressed last session, when the subject was brought under the consideration of the House. The right hon. gentleman had upon that occasion declared, that "we had a right to expect from the colonial legislatures, a full and fair co-operation. And," added the right hon. gentleman "being as much averse by habit, as I am at this moment precluded by duty, from mooting imaginary points, and looking to the solution of extreme, though not impossible questions, I must add, that any resistance which might be manifested to the express and declared wishes of parliament, any resistance, I mean, which should partake, not of reason, but of contumacy, would create a case (a case, however, which I sincerely trust will never occur) upon which his Majesty's government would not hesitate to come down to parliament for counsel."
1170
1171
1172
1173
1174
1175
Mr. Watson Taylor
said, that he felt himself bound, in candour, to commence his observations by stating, that in the way of property, he was deeply interested in the result of the present discussion Not that, on that account, he was at all inclined to take a limited and partial view of the subject, but that he felt that he owed great and awful obligations to the negroes themselves, who were more immediately interested in it than he himself was. Under these feelings it was, that he had always acted, in the management and protection of the negroes living upon his own estates. If it were worth the while to trouble the House with the details, he could produce them, and prove by unquestionable documents, that in every one of the numerous orders which he had sent out to the West Indies, he had expressed a constant care and anxiety for the comfortable condition of the negroes, whether in age or youth, whether in sickness or health, with respect to their diet, their lodging, their clothing, and the medicines requisite for them.
1176
l
1177
1178
Mr. Manning
said:—Mr. Speaker; this question has been recommended by his Majesty's Speech at the opening of this session, to be treated with great temper and mature consideration—a recommendation highly desirable, as no question has been agitated for some time, within these walls, of greater interest to the nation at large. I am much gratified in observing, that this recommendation has been carefully attended to by the member for Seaford, who spoke on the part of the colonies; but whether it has been equally observed by the hon. gentleman opposite, the member for Weymouth, I shall leave to the House to judge.
1179
1180
1181
1182
Mr. Evans
said, he sincerely believed that, generally speaking, the planters were extremely kind and liberal, but it appeared to him that it was one of the most lamentable parts of the slavery of the West Indies, that it was almost beyond the power of any owner of a plantation to give permanent alleviation to the condition of his slaves. He also thought, that the argument of the hon. member for Taunton, that a negro slave was in a more comfortable condition than the
1183
Mr. Blair
said;—.The hon. and learned gentleman opposite (Dr. Lushington) having in his speech alluded to the colony of Demerara, with which I am connected, I trust I shall be excused if I trouble the House with a few words. The hon. and learned gentleman says, that the late revolt in Demerara is not to be imputed to certain proceedings of last session in this place, but to the slaves having been overworked and maltreated; and in support of this allegation, he refers to the registration returns, which exhibit a larger number of deaths than of births. Sir, I am rather inclined to refer this mortality to an epidemic which prevailed in that colony last spring, and which was extremely fatal, and I deny that the negroes there are in any respect harshly used. On the contrary, I maintain, that they are as mildly and as humanely managed in Demerara, as in the Islands, or as is compatible with a state; of slavery and pressure; the hon. and learned gentleman has been studying
1184
Sir G. H. Rose
said:—I entirely concur, Sir, with those who conceive, that the cure for West-India evils is to be sought for, and is attainable, far more by moral
1185
1186
1187
1188
Mr. William Smith
said:—Sir, I do not mean at this hour to enter into a general discussion of the propositions immediately before the House; but I must acknowledge, that I, among others, am much disappointed at finding that what we regarded as the, pledge given last year, has not been more completely redeemed: nor can I imagine a situation of affairs in which it would have been more justifiable for his majesty's ministers to have "applied to parliament for counsel," than under the conduct pursued, and the language held in several of the colonies—fearing as I do, that, if now foregone, that step will eventually be found necessary, and perhaps in circumstances of greater difficulty; unless indeed (which I am in the last degree unwilling to suppose), the purpose of government be shaken as to the grand object to which it stands engaged.
1189
1190
1191
"For forms of government let fools contest,
Whate'er is best adminster'd is best,"
1192
1193
Sir Robert Wilson
inquired of the right hon. secretary of state for foreign affairs, if the regulations now brought before the House were to be extended to the Cape of Good Hope, the Mauritius, and all our other colonies? He wished also to know, whether the 12th clause, which ordered, that no negro should receive more than twenty-five lashes "at any one time," meant, that the master might, for the same offence, but at some other time, tie up the slave, and, before his back was healed, again punish him?
Mr. T. Wilson
said, he had been at Grenada, and had there seen none of those scenes of wretchedness, which had been described by some of the hon. gentlemen opposite. He would briefly advert to what had fallen from his hon. friend, the member for Norwich, as to the comparative infrequency of insurrections. In his opinion, this had arisen from the circumstance, that since the abolition of the slave trade, and in consequence of the discussion which the question had undergone, the inhabitants of the colonies had been more on their guard, and kept a constant watch. Insurrection, therefore, had rather been prevented by their own vigilance, than by any improvement in the habits of the slaves. The hon. member denied that free labour would be so profitable as slave labour, and asked, who was to feed the negroes, provided they were emancipated; as in that case they assuredly would not work. He thought, that if the question was to be pressed forward in the
1194
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose to reply, and said:—Mr. Speaker; had I not been called upon in so direct a manner by some hon. gentlemen in the course of this debate, it was hot my intention to have offered myself again to your notice; and in addressing you at this late hour, Sir, and after so full a discussion, I am sure it will be agreeable to the House to hear that it is by no means my intention to trespass longer upon its time than may be necessary for replying to the questions which have been put to me.
experiment
example;
1195
1196
1197
1198
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Wednesday, March 17, 1824
PETITION OF HENRY DUNDAS PERROTT,
Mr. Hume
presented a petition from Mr. Henry Dundas Perrott, late a lieutenant in the royal navy, complaining of the treatment he had experienced from the Board of Admiralty, and praying the House to refer his case to the twelve judges. The hon. gentleman observed, that: while there was any prospect that the injustice: of which the petitioner complained might be remedied in the proper official quarter, he had advised him to abstain, from any application to parliament; but that now, as all hope of that nature seemed to be at an end, he submitted the circumstances of
1199
l.
1200
1201
1202
Sir George Cockburn
lamented, that the hon. member had gone so much into detail on this occasion, inasmuch as it compelled him to do so too in replying to his statement; and he lamented the circumstance the more especially, because he had received letters from some members of this party's family, requesting him not to go into the full exposure of his case. Had the hon. member thought proper to content himself with merely bringing the petition up, he (Sir George) would not have felt it necessary to take the step which he was about to do. The hon. member's proceeding, however, compelled him to it; and the case itself was so monstrous as to leave him no choice. The facts were simply these:—This Mr. Dundas Perrott, being a lieutenant in his majesty's navy, informed a person that he could get a protection from the impress. That person was a poor unfortunate servant-woman, who really imagined that Perrott could procure a protection for her husband, Robert Bullen. He required an advance of money for the purpose; and she gave him that money. He soon afterwards pressed her for more, which she again furnished. He still applied for money, in order, as he said, to fee the clerks at the Admiralty. She had parted with all the cash she had, and borrowed a sum to meet his demands: but still the man wanted additional funds. The poor woman was unable to raise them; but she happened to possess a small furnished house of her own, and actually took away her furniture and sold it. In conclusion, the man was pressed; and the unhappy wife, after having vainly sacrificed her all, went before a magistrate. That magistrate considered it proper, upon a hearing, to send the matter before another tribunal; and evidence was then gone into, which clearly proved, that a more iniquitous case was never yet produced before a court of justice. The Lords of the Admiralty, and the service generally, were filled with indignation at the detection of such misconduct in an officer who had the honour of bearing a commission in the
1203
1204
Mr. Hume
, in explanation, contended that the question was, whether the facts that had been sworn to against the petitioner were proved or not. By the affidavits which he held in his hand, it appeared, as he maintained, that they were not proved. This petition had been handed to him by sir Edward Perrott; and in answer to a question which he had put to sir Edward, as to whether he was prepared to meet any statement that the petition might occasion in parliament, sir Edward had replied, that he was quite willing to do so; and that he was most anxious it should be presented without loss of time.
Sir G. Clerk
said, that it bad come to the knowledge of the Admiralty, that some members of the petitioner's family had tampered with Mrs. Bullen before the trial, and offered her the money out of which she had been defrauded, if she would not appear against the petitioner. After the verdict, it was not a question for the Admiralty, whether the indictment was found deficient on technical points, but whether the petitioner was morally guilty.
Sir Isaac Coffin
would be glad to know, whether gentlemen could suppose that any Admiralty in the world would be so inhuman, as to refuse relief to a man who had suffered so much in the cause of his' country as the petitioner appeared to have done, if there did not exist some strong case against him.
Mr. Croker
assured the House, that had there been any doubt in this case, the Admiralty would have given the benefit of that doubt to a person in so interesting a situation as that of a wounded officer. He would mention a single fact, which, he thought, would go far to satisfy the minds of gentlemen upon the merits of this case. It was a fact that took place, he would assume, without the knowledge of either of the parties, but while this fraudulent negotiation was going on between Perrott and the poor woman. Perrott now denied that there was either
1205
Mr. Agar Ellis
was bound to state, that such a case as that brought forward by his hon. friend he had never heard. The explanations of gentlemen opposite must have quite satisfied the House, as to the impropriety of proceeding further in the matter.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that the petitioner was found guilty by a jury, and he now appealed from the decision of a jury, stating that he was innocent of an offence of which that jury, on their oaths, had said he was guilty. This, he believed, was the first attempt that had been made to establish a precedent, the dangerous consequences of which it was not necessary to dwell on. With respect to what had been said about affidavits, four out of five of the affidavits which parties made, complaining of the administration of justice, were framed in the same way. There was one plain answer to these affidavits—why were not the persons by whom they were made examined in open court? No, they shrunk from such examination; but were ready enough to come forward with affidavits, where they were not exposed to the penalties attendant upon perjury.
Mr. Hume
said, he would not press the House to a division, but he thought the petitioner intitled to the commiseration pf the country.
Mr. Peel
added, that he might have objected to the reception of the petition, on the technical ground, that it prayed for pecuniary compensation.
Mr. Monk
recommended Mr. Hume to withdraw the petition; and the latter, with the leave of the House, complied with the request.
1206
REFORM OF PARLIAMENT—PETITION
Mr. Hobhouse
said, he held in his hand a petition praying for a Reform in the Representation of the people in parliament. Though favourable to the principle of parliamentary reform, he certainly could not concur in the prayer of his constituent, from whom this petition, came; still, however, as the petition was, drawn up in language respectful to the. House, he thought it ought to be received. The petition was from Mr. George Worgman, a jeweller, in the Strand. He prayed that the House might do away with the complex machinery at present used in borough elections—that they would repeal the acts against bribery and corruption at such elections. By these means, he thought the higher orders would be duly represented. It was the higher orders, the petitioner thought, and not the lower, which were not duly represented in that House. He further thought, that if the laws against bribery and corruption at elections were repealed, that influence might be openly exercised which was now carried on through, dark and secret channels; that an advantage would arise from giving to men of property sufficient to purchase the patronage of a borough, that fair representation in parliament to which such property was entitled. He also prayed, that the House would sanction bylaw the open purchase and sale of seats in that House. It was well known, the hon. member observed, that such bargains daily took place, and he could see no objection to making those seats, which were now the objects of secret bargain and sale, open to the public competition of such as might be disposed to expend their money in that way. The petitioner, in speaking to him on this subject, had stated, that this was the only kind of reform to which it was likely the House would agree, and he thought it would be attended with many advantages. The last prayer of the petitioner was, that large towns, such as Birmingham and Manchester, should be empowered to return members, in order that the balance might be kept true by the representation of the popular interests, and in order to keep open the channels for aspiring candidates who might wish to advance to official appointments. The plan of Mr. Worgman was therefore no wild or visionary project, incapable of being rendered intelligible, but a plain, comprehensive
1207
1208
1209
Ordered to lie on the table.
STOCK-PURSE OF THE FOOT GUARDS.]
Mr. Hume
referred to what had passed on two former evenings respecting the Stock Purse of the Regiments of Foot Guards,
1210
d
1211
d
1212
Lord Palmerston
thought he should be able in a few words fully to explain all that had puzzled the hon. member for Aberdeen. Previously to the year 1783, all the regiments of the service were on the same footing as the Guards at present. Pay was issued for the full number of men voted, and the difference between the pay issued to the establishment and the effective numbers, in other words, the pay of the ineffectives went to form a stock-purse, the mysterious term which had so confused the hon. mover. Out of this stock-purse were paid the expenses of recruiting, of hospitals; and the remainder, if any, was divided among the captains of companies. When Mr. Burke brought in his bill which abolished the stock-purses in the regiments of the line, and provided that pay should be issued for the effectives only, the Foot guards were excepted from the arrangement. The hon. member had said, that Mr. Windham as well as himself (lord P.) had wished to extend the system of the rest of the army to the
1213
1214
Mr. Bernal
stated, that the explanation given by the noble lord must be as satisfactory to the House as it was creditable to the regiments of Guards. Nor did he think the gallant officer opposite him had any occasion to be dissatisfied with the statement of his hon. friend, who had brought the matter forward.
Sir H. Hardinge
said, that if the hon. member had made the other night a statement similar to that which he had now made, he should not have expressed himself with any warmth; but certainly the imputation that the officers of the Guards put into their own pockets the pay of the imprisoned men, was one which he felt it necessary to repel. The allowances of the officers in the Guards were far from being extravagant, as compared with those of the rest of the army. He was ready to show the hon. gentleman the accounts, by which he would see, that the expense of the officers of a battalion of the Guards was 700
l
1215
Colonel Dawkins
said, he thought it unnecessary to add any thing to the explanation of the noble lord, which had proved so satisfactory.
Sir J. Shelley
said, the Guards would be found as little expensive in reality, as any branch of the army.
Mr. Hume
expressed himself satisfied with the explanation given, and observed, that he could not have been expected to know what was the manner in which the money was disposed of, as the noble lord had only known it by inquiring, since the subject had been mentioned in that House.
The motion, as amended, was agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 18, 1824
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.]
Earl Spencer
presented two petitions for the Abolition of Slavery in the West-Indies. The noble earl expressed his satisfaction at observing the moderation with which this subject had been discussed in both Houses of parliament. He was afraid it would be a long time before the great object of complete emancipation could be obtained. He trusted, however, that the moderation which at present distinguished the advocates of the measure would continue, for in that case, he could indulge the hope that the wished for result would ultimately be obtained.
Earl Grosvenor
hoped that the measures proposed to be adopted were preliminary to the emancipation of the negroes, for unless they were to have that tendency, they would prove of little value. Their lordships were, however, left in the dark as to the views of his majesty's government on this important point. He wished to know whether it was their intention to promote the complete extinction of slavery.
The Earl of Liverpool
observed, that the immediate object of the measures which had been proposed by his majesty's government was the amelioration of the condition of the slaves, by regulations, and by the promotion of their moral and religious instruction. With respect to what the noble lord had said on the subject of the extinction of slavery, he had only to observe, that the great feature of the present plan, independently of the communication of moral and religious instruction to the negroes, was the introduction of some principle to enable every man to acquire his manumission, and not only his own ma-
1216
MUTINY BILL—FLOGGING.]
On the commitment of the Mutiny Bill,
Earl Grosvenor
took the opportunity of making a few observations on military flogging, and expressed a hope, that the practice would be gradually abolished. He believed that a very great improvement in this respect had already taken place in many regiments. He was aware there might be considerable difficulty in doing the practice away suddenly, and that there might be cases which would make it imprudent to put an end to it altogether. It was part of the intended plan with respect to the negroes, to limit the number of lashes which should be inflicted. He wished the same regulation to be introduced into the army. He could not, however, agree with those who assimilated the punishment of the military to that inflicted on the negroes. There was no foundation for this comparison; for slaves were punished at the mere will of the persons who employed them, whereas the troops could only be punished in virtue of the sentence of a court martial.
IRISH LINEN TRADE—BOUNTIES.]
Mr. Spring Rice
rose to present a petition, on a subject of the greatest importance to the South and West of Ireland. When the subject of reducing the bounties on the importation of Irish linen was first mentioned in that House, it excited considerable agitation in the parts of Ireland to which he alluded. He trusted that, by the present petition, the attention of parliament and of his majesty's government would be called, and not called in vain, to a subject which involved the peace and tranquillity of those districts in Ireland, more than any other that could be named. Within the few last years, individuals and public bodies in those districts had exerted themselves to provide the means of employment for the inferior classes of the population. That employment was found in the manufacture of coarse linen. But the proceedings which had already taken place in the House on this subject, had produced the most alarming consequences.
1217
l
l
Colonel Trench
trusted that the clear, distinct, and forcible statement of his hon. friend would have its due effect on the House and on his majesty's government. He also had received communications from
1218
Sir H. Parnell
said, that if the subject was more narrowly examined by his hon. friend, he would find that the withdrawing of the bounty would not be attended with the unfavourable results which he seemed to fear.
Sir J. Newport
hoped, that the propriety and the policy of the bounties would be deliberately examined before any further attempt were made to withdraw them.
Sir R. Fergusson
deprecated the hue and cry that had been raised against the abolition of the bounties in question, and the violent opposition that had been made thereto. The manufacturers of linen in Scotland were quite satisfied with the statement of the chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. V. Fitzgerald
conceived, that if the gallant officer had heard the petition read, he would not have described it as he had done. If the gallant officer had taken the state of the Irish linen trade into consideration, he would have found that it might be possible to discover objections to the views of the chancellor of the Exchequer, as far as the subject of that petition was in question. He had that day transmitted to his right hon. friend, a memorial from the high sheriffs, and grand jury of the county of Clare, on the subject of the abolition. The memorial stated, that every means had been adopted for the encouragement of the linen trade in
1219
Mr. Hutchinson
said, that the declared intention of withdrawing the bounties had given the most fearful alarm to the people of Ireland—an alarm which every hour increased. In the county of Cork alone, there were not less than 60,000 persons occupied in that branch of manufacture; and these persons were of the poorest class. He had been informed by individuals acquainted with the trade, that the coarse linen manufacture would be mainly suppressed by the abolition of the bounty. The consequence would be, that the population would be reduced to a state of starvation, and driven to acts of outrage. He held a petition from the merchants and manufacturers of Cork on the same subject, which he would present when the chancellor of the Exchequer should appear in his place.
Mr. Maberly
was surprised that the chancellor of the Exchequer, when he came down with a proposition to abolish all bounties, was not at the same time prepared to do away with the duties on the raw materials. There was, for instance, a duty of 30 per cent on hemp, and that duty was continued, notwithstanding a kind of pledge that had been given last session. The linen trade was of the last importance to Ireland; and the question, instead of being treated in an incidental manner, ought to undergo a special discussion. If the interests of this trade were not considered worthy of attention by the
1220
Ordered to lie on the table.
IMPRESSMENT OF SEAMEN—PETITION
Mr. Hume
presented a petition from George William Butler, relative to the important subject of Impressment. This petition was he said, drawn up by a man who had had a great deal of experience in the navy, and what he stated seemed well deserving of serious attention. The party submitted, that he had been twenty years in his majesty's navy. There were four causes to which the evils attendant upon the naval service might be attributed. These were first, the unlimited time of service; and the petitioner instanced cases, where men were impressed on their return from abroad, and detained in the service for a period of thirteen years, with, at the end of that time, a leave of absence of fourteen days, after which the parties were again sent on service, where they remained nine years without intermission. The second cause was the capricious discipline with respect to punishment and dress. The third, the being placed under the control of mere boys, acting as midshipmen and masters' mates, who were not sufficient judges as to whether men did their duty properly or not, and who yet nevertheless had the power of punishment. There was, he observed, a considerable improvement in the navy in this respect since the close of the war, but he believed much still remained to be done. The fourth cause was the lowness of wages, and the unequal distribution of prize-money. The hon. member expressed a hope that the attention of government would be seriously turned to these matters, which were most important to the public service. He would himself, at no distant day, submit a motion with a view of obtaining better information on the subject. There must be something defective in the service, when, with all its advantages, it was found so difficult to induce men to enter.
Mr. Sykes
, as the representative of a considerable port, expressed a hope that the attention of government might be speedily turned to the system of impressment. He should, in a short time, have to present a petition from his constituents, very numerously and respectably signed, against the present system.
1221
Sir R. Wilson
vouched for the respectability of the petitioner.
Ordered to lie on the table.
SILK TRADE—LONDON PETITION
Mr. Baring
rose for the purpose of presenting a petition from the Silk-manufacturers of London against the proposed reduction of the duty. The petitioners stated, that notwithstanding the boon held out to the trade by the proposed return of the duty on the stock in hand, they still remained unaltered in opinion as to the ruinous consequences of the measures proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer with respect to the general regulation of the duties. They were satisfied, that if the bill for effecting it passed, the silk trade of this country would be destroyed, and thousands of hands thrown out of employment. He had made inquiries on the subject, and the only observation he had heard from the parties interested was, "We hope we shall have time to get out of the trade before the storm arrives." This important step had been taken by the chancellor of the Exchequer without due inquiry. The report of the House of Lords had been the only source of information consulted; and the House, he feared, was averse even to the hearing of counsel on behalf of the petitioners. Such was part of the prayer; and, recollecting how incompetent he was to enter into the necessary details, and to enforce the arguments with due effect, however strongly he might feel them, he intreated the House not to listen, on this point, to the advice of the hon. member for Aberdeen. The petitioners had the strongest claim to have an opportunity of stating the peculiar hardships of their case; and they would be able to do it with great effect, through a gentleman not only learned in the law, but well acquainted with the manufacture of silk. He was instructed to say, that the petitioners were willing to forego the whole amount of bounty to be given to them, if they were allowed a further extension of time. They were of opinion, that the return of duty promised would amount to infinitely more than the calculation ministers seemed to have made. The president of the Board of Trade had supposed that it might be about 100,000
l
1222
Mr. Ellice
did not rise to oppose the reception of the petition; on the contrary, he was satisfied that the House could not too often discuss important subjects of this kind, before it arrived at a decision. It was fair to the chancellor of the Exchequer to say, that the manufacturers of Coventry were now generally satisfied with the measures about to be adopted. They were not yet convinced that they should be able to compete with France in particular branches of the silk trade; but they were quite willing, with the promised allowance, that the experiment should be fairly tried. He was also instructed by his constituents to state, that they were no parties to the resolutions recently passed at the City of London-tavern. A considerable part of the trade felt that we should be able to compete with the French. Such had always been his opinion; but the portion most likely to be injured by the rivalship was that established at Coventry. The whole arrangement would require the greatest possible attention. In the committee on the bill he would submit one or two amendments.
Sir James Mackintosh
wished to take that opportunity of making a declaration, which he should have made long ago, had not ill health prevented him. He highly approved of all that the chancellor of the Exchequer had done upon this subject, and he could not, with any regard to consistency or common decency, agree in the opinion, that ministers had not been sufficiently slow and cautious in resorting, even thus limitedly, to the principles of free trade; because he should thereby condemn the friends by whom he was surrounded, but especially himself: he having long had occasion to complain that ministers were tardy in adopting self-evident principles. The experience and reflection of his whole life had convinced him that those principles were the best and soundest foundation of the well-being of nations; and, from year to year, he had witnessed the fatal results of a deviation from them. He was,
1223
Mr. Tierney
said, he felt himself obliged, by the speech of his hon. and learned friend, to trouble the House with a few remarks. Some of the doctrines which it
1224
1225
1226
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
wished to make a very few observations. In the first place, he should appear ungrateful if he did not most distinctly acknowledge his sense of the favourable reception on all sides, of the principles which he had had the good fortune to bring into action; but he would take the liberty of saying, that he could not accept the compliment of the right hon. gentleman, at the expense of the noble lord, his predecessor in office. He was therefore, placed in an embarrassing situation, for nothing could be more embarrassing than to be complimented at the expense of others. He must say, however, that the sort of criticism made upon the conduct of the noble lord was by no means well-founded; for he could confidently state
1227
1228
Mr. Whitmore
thought, that the course which ministers had pursued, was marked at once with cautious attention to particular interests, and with adherence to broad principles. He trusted that they would pursue that manly course; fully convinced, that if they followed it up to its legitimate consequences, there was no country in the world of which the prosperity would be so brilliant as that of England. A right hon. gentleman had spoken of the triumph which the people of Spitalfields had obtained in maintaining their local acts. The consequence of that triumph was the petition now before them; for there was no other reason why the manufacturers of Spitalfields should not be as confident as all the other manufacturers of the kingdom were, of the success of the measures now proposed by the government. A silk-manufacturer of Manchester, who had a large capital invested had assured him that the manufacturers of that place were entirely satisfied with the general measures which the government was pursuing, and looked forward with confidence to the result of them.
Lord George Cavendish
said, that though his constituents were satisfied with the measure, it was undoubtedly the duty of the House to proceed with caution. He should therefore support the proposition for hearing counsel.
Mr. Hume
hoped, that government would persevere in carrying the measures which they had proposed into effect. He was sorry to understand that a very feverish state of feeling had prevailed in the city during the whole of the day, in consequence of a rumour, that one of the lords of the Treasury had, in an interview which had taken place between him and some persons connected with the silktrade, intimated that the measures which had been proposed would undergo some change.
1229
Mr. Huskisson
said, he could take upon himself confidently to state, that neither his noble friend, the first lord of the Treasury, nor any other member of the government had held out the slightest expectation that any change would be made in the plan which he had submitted to the House; and he would state further, on his own responsibility, that there was not the least idea entertained, by any member of the government, of proposing any change in that plan.
Lord A. Hamilton
called the attention of the House to the clause relative to cut silk. If that clause were passed in the form in which it now stood, the object of the right hon. gentleman would be defeated.
Mr. Baring
, in reply, observed, that the petition was really the petition of a committee, appointed by the general meeting of the silk-trade of London. Some very sharp remarks had been made upon him by his hon. and learned friend (sir J. Mackintosh), because, as his hon. and learned friend expressed it, he had been urging the ministers to go further into the system of free trade, while he objected to the measure before the House. Now, all he had said was, that a system, whatever it was, should be consistent in its parts. He wished his hon. and learned friend, who had spoken so eloquently on the subject, had given them his definition of what he meant by free trade, instead of favouring them with his declamation on a subject which (for there was a fashion in opinions as well as in clothes) was now so fashionable. As to the silk-trade, which his hon. and learned friend supposed the measures of the chancellor of the Exchequer were to make free, there were in the first place, most absurd restrictions on labour; and, in the second place, a protecting duty on foreign, in favour of British organzine silk. His hon. and learned friend could know nothing about the subject, or he would not have treated the trade as free. If they protected the throwsterer by a duty, they could not expect the manufacturer to thrive under foreign competition; if they maintained the restriction between masters and workmen, they could not expect the manufacturer to thrive under foreign competition. The chancellor of the Exchequer must abolish these restrictions before he could make a free trade. Nay, he must go further, and persuade the country gentlemen to consent to let the trade in bread be free.
1230
l
l
Sir J. Mackintosh
said, that if his hon. friend meant by the term "sharp" that his remarks had been hostile towards him, he was mistaken; as there was no one whom he should be more justly sorry to address in such a temper, but he had used a part of the freedom of debate which it was allowable for his hon. friend or himself
1231
1232
The Committee on the Bill was instructed to hear counsel accordingly.
EVACUATION OF SPAIN BY THE
Lord John Russell
observed, that before he offered any thing in support of the motion with which he should conclude, he thought it necessary to say, that his proposition was not intended to lay the foundation of any charge against his majesty's ministers as to the policy they had pursued with respect to the contest in Spain. His opinion certainly was, that if, at the Congress of Verona, they had assumed the language that had been employed in the message of the President of the United States, or had ever spoken in relation to Spain itself, as they had recently spoken as to the colonies or Spain, that war would never have taken place; but, certainly any time after the commencement of the last session, it would have been in his opinion, imprudent to have embarked in the contest. This, however, was now rather matter for historical discussion than for any consideration of practical policy. What he wished to bring into discussion—what he wished to hear from his majesty's ministers was—what the policy of the country now is, in order that, by a clear perception of our condition, we should not fall again into that difficulty in which, we were lately involved, when, after a peace concluded amidst universal congratulations, and after a period of applause on one side and of silence on the other, it became a question, whether or no we should plunge into a dangerous war, and were only deterred from it by the danger of hazarding an attack upon so powerful an adversary.
1233
"Tis Britain's care to watch o'er Europe's fate,
To hold in balance each contending state,
To threaten bold presumptuous kings with war,
And answer each afflicted neighbour's prayer."
1234
1235
1236
1237
1238
1239
1240
1241
1242
1243
1244
1245
1246
1247
Sir Robert Wilson
expressed his solicitude to offer himself to the notice of the House on a question of the highest importance to the foreign policy of this country, involving the dearest interests of ten millions of Spaniards, and collaterally affecting the future happiness of several millions of the people of Portugal. With this impression of its importance, he rose to support the motion of the noble lord, differing, however, with him in some points, persuaded that the promulgation of such sentiments as those which had fallen from the noble lord must prove of the greatest value, not alone to the people of Spain, but to the people, of every nation, whose independence and liberties were compromised by the success of the unprincipled aggression of France. Of that atrocious aggression, (it was some consolation to think, that no subject of a free country ventured to be a defender. Even success which, in too many instances, was wont to extenuate crime, had, in this case, only added horror and enormity to the original offence. It was impossible—after the proofs which the government of France had unequivocally given of its policy, and after the avowed intentions of the Holy Alliance—it was impossible, he thought, that a British statesman should be found, who did not view with jealousy and alarm the military occupation of Spain. For his own part, he considered that occupation as a scandal to the character of this country; and that the ministers of the Crown were at least bound to afford to parliament the fullest explanation on a question so intimately connected with our dearest interests. The noble lord had justly observed, that we should have declared broadly to the Spanish government, that no interference on her part would be
1248
1249
1250
1251
1252
1253
1254
1255
1256
1257
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1259
1260
Mr. Littleton
said, that as it must have been painful to the gallant officer to state his own personal circumstances to the House, he seized the first moment to assure him, that no change which had been effected, either by the caprice of others, or from any indiscretion of his own, could induce him to view the gallant officer in any other light than as one of the brightest examples of chivalric courage and generosity, to be found in the history of modern times. With respect to that part of the gallant officer's speech which related to his conduct in Spain, he must say, that no man had a greater right to deplore the degraded situation of that country, than he who had himself contributed so much to its glory. He would not follow the noble lord through the long historical excursion which he had taken; but he must in the outset say, in justice to himself, that he did not oppose the noble lord's motion because he was dissatisfied with his ideas of constitutional independence, or because he did not deprecate the conduct of a great military state, in endeavouring to extend its boundary contrary to the dictates of national faith, and of international law. On the contrary he rejoiced exceedingly when he saw the government of his country disposed to resist the self-styled Holy-Alliance, in any scheme which they might have entertained of aggrandizement. Public opinion had been enlisted against the
1261
1262
1263
1264
Mr. Gooch
rose to second the amendment. He fully concurred, he said, with the whole of the speech of the hon. member for Staffordshire, but in no part of it more heartily than in the compliment which he had paid to the hon. member for
1265
Mr. Secretary Canning
rose, after the question had been put from the chair, and while the gallery was clearing for the purpose of a division. He had waited, be said, and naturally, until the very moment when the House was being called on for its decision; for he could scarcely persuade himself, that a motion, brought forward after such immense preparation, and a motion, to the effective prosecution of which one other hapless motion had already been sacrificed, was itself in its turn to be abandoned by all the accustomed supporters of the noble mover. He could hardly believe, seeing as he did over the way, a victim, who had, on a former night, been completely deserted, and whose friends out of doors had given as a reason for that desertion, that the great effort was to be made upon a motion yet to come, and that it would not be prudent, by any previous display, to weaken the impression which was then to be produced—he really could scarcely be convinced, when he recollected these things, that the debate of the present night could have been about to close at the moment when he had taken it up; and that not only the motion of the noble lord opposite was to go entirely unsupported, but such an amendment as that proposed by the hon. member for Stafford be suffered to pass without a struggle against it. But, if he was surprised, he was not dissatisfied with the
1266
"Hide blushing glory—hide Pultowa's day!"
1267
1268
1269
1270
1271
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1273
1274
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1276
"The army's at the door, but in disguise
Entreats a word of both your majesties."
1277
"Stabant orantes primi transmittere cursum,
Tendebantque manus ripæ ulterioris amore."
1278
Sir R. Wilson
said, in explanation, that he had sent his papers unsealed through the office of the right hon. secretary, because, as he was communicating with one who was then a minister of the Spanish court, he thought it not only proper, but highly necessary, that the officers of the British government should be acquainted with the transaction.
Mr. Canning
said, that his remark as to the inviolable secrecy observed by his office in transmitting the papers of the hon. gentleman, referred chiefly to letters to private individuals, which were also forwarded by the hon. gentleman.
Sir James Mackintosh
began by remarking upon the constitutional functions of parliament, the duties due from the members of the state, as advisers in the great council of the nation, and the proper
1279
1280
1281
1282
Lord John Russell
made a short reply.
1283
The original motion was negatived; after which, the amendment was agreed to, without a division.
PRISONS—SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he would not preface his motion with any observations, as he was satisfied, that the subject might be discussed more advantageously in a select committee of the House than in the House itself. The principal object of that Committee would be, to consider the best mode of facilitating the union of prisons of local jurisdictions with the county gaols. He would at once move, "that a Select Committee be appointed to consider the Laws relating to Prisons, and to report their observations thereupon to the House."—The motion was agreed to, and a Committee appointed.
PUBLIC BUILDINGS IN WESTMINSTER.]
Mr. Bankes
, after a few prefatory remarks on the necessity of parliamentary interference on this subject, moved, "that the account of the expense incurred, and an estimate of the expense remaining to be
1284
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he was not aware that it was the intention of his hon. friend to move for the appointment of a committee on the subject. He was not at present prepared to say whether there appeared to be ground for the appointment of such a Committee; and he wished, therefore, that his hon. friend would have the kindness to withdraw his motion until he had informed himself better respecting it.
Mr. Bankes
said, he had not the slightest objection to comply with his hon. friend's wishes; but the fact was, that in the erection of the buildings in question, they were at that moment hastening the completion of those very parts which were the most contrary to every principle of sound and legitimate taste. If he consented to withdraw his motion, measures ought to be adopted to prevent that part of the works from proceeding. He had lost no time in bringing the matter under the consideration of the House. When the estimates were originally moved, he had freely spoken his mind upon them. He had then moved for the papers which were necessary to throw a light on the subject. Those papers had been presented only yesterday, and he had immediately given notice of the motion which he had just made.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he was far from imputing any blame to his hon. friend. He could assure his hon. friend, that no particular instructions had been given to accelerate the completion of the parts of the building to which his hon. friend had adverted. The fact was, that the want of these courts occasioned a very grave inconvenience to all persons, whether administering or desiring justice, interested in them. There had therefore been, in the first instance, a general order to expedite them as much as possible; but there had been no recent order to accelerate their completion. If his hon. friend would postpone his motion, he would give directions that the proceeding with the building should be suspended for two or three days. If his hon. friend pressed his motion at present, he must vote against it; because, whatever objections he might have to the building, he was
1285
Mr. Bankes
coincided in the proposition of his right hon. friend. The part to which he objected consisted of two Venetian windows; the one small, and the other put on a cut-off corner, like the table of the House. As to expedition, he would engage to find a place on the other side, where, with the workmen which London was competent to furnish, he would build a Court of King's Bench as speedily as the one now building could be completed.
The motion was withdrawn.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 19, 1824
SILK TRADE.]
Mr. Haldimand
rose to present a petition from some of the most respectable, and he might add most intelligent, silk manufacturers in England. It related to the arrangements which it was understood were to be made for carrying into effect the propositions of the chancellor of the Exchequer in respect of this trade; and it prayed that no alteration might be made in those arrangements. The petitioners especially prayed that there might be no delay in their execution; and they added, that if this question of delay had not been agitated afresh, the whole of their hands would have been by this time in active employment. They also expressed their perfect satisfaction with the intention which had been avowed, of allowing them a drawback upon manufactured articles. With regard to the suggestion as to spreading the operation of the new arrangements over a certain number of years, he really thought it could have no other effect but to paralyze the trade, and repress the energy, which, if the right hon. gentleman's propositions were at once adopted, it would undoubtedly manifest. He had seen that morning some silk merchants, as well as the manufacturers, and had expected to be intrusted with a petition from them. He was, however, enabled to say, that the silk merchants were favourable to the new arrangements.
Mr. Baring
said, that from the speech of his hon. friend, the House might be induced to suppose, that he was holding it up as the petition of a certain number of persons, in favour of the measures proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer. No such thing. His hon. friend having
1286
Mr. Hume
thought the House would know how to estimate the argument of his hon. friend who spoke last, when it remembered the petition, signed by twelve persons, which his hon. friend had presented on the preceding night. Twelve persons, he believed, were all that could be found in the city of London to subscribe it. Those individuals (at the head of whom he observed the respectable name of Hale) wished to keep up the Spitalfields monopoly. Now, the petition which had just been presented was signed by thirty-three of the principal persons of the trade in London, in the short space of two hours and a half; and so far from their not being favourable to the principles upon which the chancellor of the Exchequer was proceeding in this business, they earnestly prayed that the measures proposed by the right hon. gentleman might be acted on with as little delay as possible. He had received a letter from one of the very first houses in London, that of Messrs. Wilson, Moore, and Robinson, in which they expressly said, that, with the time which was now allowed for the arrangements, the silk trade in London had nothing to fear from a competition with the manufactures of France.
Mr. Philips
said, that any person who had read the evidence taken before a committee of the Lords—evidence not taken with a view to the plans of the chancellor of the Exchequer, but not the less applicable to his views—must feel convinced, that the English manufacturer had nothing whatever to fear from a competition with France. The very man who now petitioned against the arrangements of the chancellor of the Exchequer, had stated
1287
Mr. Ellice
said, he had received letters from various parts of the country, embracing the same opinions as those which the petitioners had expressed. The manufacturers of Coventry were anxious that the right hon. gentleman should not make any alteration in his measures. Indeed, those measures had proceeded so far, that it would be difficult, even if it were desirable, for the right hon. gentleman to go back. Having said so much, he felt himself bound to take notice of an assertion which he had heard that night. It. was said, that the silk manufacturers of this country were able to compete with the manufacturers of France. This he must deny. The English manufacturer was not able to do so in the article of dyeing, nor had he machinery of equal excellence. A number of looms had been some time since imported from France, and Frenchmen had even been brought over to work at them.
Mr. Baring
begged to remind the House, that with every disposition to obtain and get up petitions on this subject, not one had yet been laid upon the table approving of the whole of the project of the chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. member for Aberdeen had indeed read a letter from one house in London, but that firm had been the advisers of the chancellor of the Exchequer, and were of course anxious that the scheme should be carried speedily into effect, as they had so conducted their speculations as to be burgely benefited by the change.
Mr. Haldimand
added, that the petition had been prepared and signed in an hour and an half that morning. The petitioners did not say, that they were satisfied with
1288
Sir T. Lethbridge
expressed a wish, that the chancellor of the Exchequer should state to the House the exact sum which the country was likely to lose by the amount of the drawbacks. Some had fixed it at 100,000
l
l
Mr. Bright
feared, that although the chancellor of the Exchequer was disposed to be very liberal to the dealers in silk, the dealers in wool would suffer severely by the proposed changes in our system. Reports had gone abroad, that it was not intended by government to allow any drawback upon wool, and he had called the attention of the president of the Board of Trade to the point on a former day. The two trades were of equal importance to the welfare of the state, and ought to be treated with equal justice. The woollen manufacturers were in a state of the greatest alarm, in consequence of an apprehension that they were to be dealt with most unfairly by the chancellor of the Exchequer.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that as the petition before the House related to silk and not to wool, a more convenient time might be found for discussing the claims of the manufacturers of the latter. That time was necessarily near at hand, when he should be quite ready to enter fully into the subject; and he undertook to demonstrate, even to the satisfaction of the hon. member for Bristol that the course he intended to pursue, was identically that which the woollen manufacturers themselves had proposed. As to the question which had been put to him by the hon. baronet, he must be aware of the extreme difficulty of arriving at any calculation, as to the cost of this measure, within a few thousand pounds; Thus much he would say, that of all the exaggerations that had ever entered into the mind of man, that which had been propagated so industriously on this subject was the grossest. It had been stated in some quarters, that the drawbacks would amount to not less than
1289
l.,
l
l
Mr. Alderman Wood
said, that he was anxious that the drawback should be allowed on cut as well as uncut silk.
Mr. Evans
stated, that his constituents were satisfied with the arrangement.
Mr. Mundy
admitted, that the alarm formerly prevailing in Derbyshire had subsided. The silk manufacturers were now content with what had been conceded. He hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would persevere.
Mr. Baring
remarked, that the manufacturers of Derbyshire might very reasonably be contented, because the chancellor of the Exchequer had given them a special protection and exemption. They were silk-throwsters, and had an advantage over the rest of the trade, in opposition to all the fine principles of political economy.
Mr. Alderman Thompson
presented a petition from the retail silk-mercers of London, praying that the drawback may extend to cut pieces of silk goods. They stated, that ninety-nine hundredths of their stock consisted of cut goods, and contended that they were entitled to compensation, as they should otherwise be losers to the extent of 800,000
l
Mr. T. Wilson
supported the prayer of the petition, and contended that the retail dealers in silk were better entitled to
1290
Ordered to lie on the table.
SILK TRADE BILL.]
On the order of the day for going into a committee on this bill,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that as he understood that the counsel who was to have been heard to-day was prevented from attending by indisposition, he proposed now to go into the committee, merely to fill up the blanks, that it might be put into an intelligible shape, and that on Monday, when the counsel hoped to be able to attend, they might go into the committee again.
Mr. Hume
wished to represent to the chancellor of the Exchequer the serious hardship upon individuals in this trade who had large stocks of silk, which though not strictly uncut, were in pieces of 30 or 40 yards in length. These dealers would suffer great loss; because, if simply a pattern was cut off, the drawback could not be obtained on it. He had heard of an individual who had a stock of 50,000
l
l
The House having resolved itself into the committee,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
Mr. Ellice
said, he was perfectly ready to concur in the suggestion of the chancellor of the Exchequer; but he was anxious that the right hon. gentleman should give some explanation to prevent what be had now thrown out from being misunderstood. From the anxiety which prevailed on the subject, he hoped he would now state, that he did not intend to vary, in any material degree, the measure now before the House.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he was quite ready to state again, that it would not be expedient to introduce into the bill any changes other than those which he had already mentioned to the House, The bill with the blanks filled
1291
Mr. Hume
wished to know whether the chancellor of the Exchequer intended to exclude the consideration of the question of cut goods? He hoped not. As the public would pay so much in the way of drawback he trusted that injustice would not be done to a few individuals, by a regulation which would prevent them from receiving the compensation on their stock which others received. He thought some rule should be adopted to give the drawback to all cut pieces of not less than a certain number of yards, say 30 or 40. The rule had, in fact, been already laid down in respect to ribbons; all pieces exceeding 18 yards receiving the drawback.
Mr. W. Smith
thought it would be better that the chancellor of the Exchequer should go into the committee, unshackled by any such pledge as that which the hon. member for Coventry wished to exact from him. Let them go into a committee on Monday, and then do what seemed just.
Mr. Ellice
explained, that it was by no means his intention to prevent the chancellor of the Exchequer from yielding in any particular point on which reasons should be offered. He merely wished it to be clearly understood, that the chancellor of the Exchequer did not intend to give up his measure in any material point.
Mr. Baring
said, he perfectly understood the declaration of the chancellor of the Exchequer to go to that extent only. It would certainly be absurd to say to any petitioner "you shall not convince me;" though he was persuaded, in point of fact, that they would not persuade the chancellor of the Exchequer. As to the question of the cut goods, he knew that the allowing the drawback upon them would augment very considerably the sum to be paid by the public; but the more he looked at the question, the less he saw any reason to resist the claim of the holders of this species of goods. The small dealer who had a few hundred, or a thousand pounds worth of silk, consisting of cut pieces, was injured as much, in proportion to his means and fortune, as the great manufacturer, and was just as much entitled to compensation. The shopkeepers seldom had whole pieces of silk, because on fancy goods, large quantities of one kind would be inconvenient. To say that
1292
Mr. Herries
said, the term was under stood by the dealers to mean silks made up in the original packages in which the wholesale dealers had supplied them, and not used. He had heard no complaint of the term, which was generally well enough understood.
Mr. Ellice
said, there need be no apprehension of the old and unfashionable pieces of silk being sent in to receive the drawback, because, as soon as the fashion changed, they were usually exported.
Mr. J. Smith
said, there seemed a great injustice in the treatment of the holders of uncut goods. The regulation was extremely hard upon many who held 20,000
l
l
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that though he had not himself seen the individuals interested in the drawback on cut silk, their case had been fully stated to his right hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson) at the Board of Trade, and, without now going into the case, he would say, that they did not seem to him to have established their claim to have the drawback returned on all their remnants; for to that extent must their claim, if admitted, go. It was not consistent with the principle usually acted upon in the return of duties, nor was it morally possible for the government to receive all the remnants that might be sent in by the little shopkeepers in country towns.
Mr. Littleton
thought it would be impracticable to allow the duties on the
1293
Mr. Alderman Wood
called the attention of the committee to the case of those wholesale dealers in silk who sent travellers round the country, and who were in the habit of cutting off small pieces as patterns to shew the colour. Now, these persons, though they might not have sold a yard of their goods, could not get a return of the duty, because they were "cut." Many of his constituents were in this situation, and had from ten to 25,000
l
The blanks were filled up, and the House resumed.
IRISH MISCELLANEOUS ESTIMATES.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee of supply, Mr. Goulburn moved, That 2000
l
Mr. Hume
said, he would repeat the question he had put last year—why should a sum be voted to a scientific Institution at Cork more than at Liverpool, or any other city? Certainly some reason should be given why the government, after having set the Institution a-going, should not withdraw its aid, and leave it to be supported by the subscriptions of the inhabitants? Were there any funds from that source?
Mr. Goulburn
said, there certainly were funds; but the reason why he proposed a vote for Cork, and should not do so for Liverpool, was, that there was a difference between a town abounding in capital, such as Liverpool, and a much less opulent one, such as Cork.
Mr. Spring Rice
said, it was proposed in 1806, when this vote was first made, that this should be a circulating grant;
1294
Mr. Hutchinson
said, the grant had been a great boon to Cork and its neighbourhood: and he doubted, though the support from private subscriptions was considerable, whether the Institution could survive the cessation of the grant.
Mr. Hume
said, that in Ireland, as well as in this country and every where else, the moment the government gave its funds, private subscriptions were withdrawn. The subscriptions when the grant was first made were now called considerable. They amounted to sixty pounds a year! This was not very creditable to the public spirit of the people of Cork and its neighbourhood. Were there lectures, and how many students attended them?
Mr. Goulburn
said, he should be prepared from the advantages conferred by the Institution on Cork and its neighbourhood, to support the grant, even if the subscriptions were smaller. There were lectures and they were attended; though he could not say by what number of students. The object was, to diffuse information among the middle classes, and in that way the lectures Could not fail to be useful.
Sir J. Newport
said, that the original object of this Institution did not involve the establishment of a botanical garden. The grant ought not to be confined to Cork, but should be extended in succession, to other provincial towns. Belfast, for instance, would have good reason to complain, if Cork enjoyed this parliamentary bounty exclusively.
Mr. W. Williams
doubted the policy of such votes as this. As long as parliament defrayed the expenses of such institutions, private munificence would not flow in its natural channel. The greatest benefit that could be conferred on Ireland would be, to diffuse education throughout that unhappy country; the greatest part of which was involved in the grossest bigotry and ignorance. The mass of the people of Ireland could derive no advantage from a botanical institution. If the sense of the House were taken, he should vote against the grant; not that he thought the Institution absolutely useless, but because he thought the money might be more usefully employed.
Mr. Secretary Peel
agreed with the hon. member, that the principle of these parliamentary grants was objectionable,
1295
On the resolution, "That 7,000
l
Mr. Hume
said, he observed that the expense of this establishment considerably exceeded the sum which appeared in the estimates. He wished to know how this difference was made up.
Mr. Goulburn
said, that the difference was made up by the members of the society, who contributed materially towards the support of the Institution: each member on his admission paying a sum of 50
l
Mr. Hume
said, he doubted very much whether any benefit was derived from the Royal Society of Dublin. He believed the member for Limerick and some other hon. members had lately visited the Institution and had expressed their satisfaction at finding every thing nice and neat: but for his part, he really believed, the whole society was a
humbug.
l
l
1296
Mr. Spring Rice
said, the hon. member had been misinformed as to the object of his recent visit to the Royal Society of Dublin. His object in visiting the Institution was not one of mere curiosity; but as a plan was at that time on foot, among a number of gentlemen in Dublin, for embarking a considerable capital in opening mines, he had visited the Institution for the purpose of obtaining information with a view to that object. He had succeeded in obtaining some very valuable information, and the result had been the formation of a company, with a capital of half a million, for the purpose of carrying into effect some of the plans which had been suggested. The school for design, to which the hon. member had adverted, had been established with a view to the cultivation of the fine arts in Ireland; and that object had been prosecuted with a considerable prospect of success. He was happy to add, that a gentleman who had held an office in the Board of Works, Mr. Johnson, had munificently devoted from 10 to 12,000
l
Mr. Goulburn
said, that the utility of the Institution consisted in the opportunity of access which it afforded to various materials, for those who were in the pursuit of the arts and sciences. The lectures delivered there had been productive of great advantage, and were well attended. He was satisfied that the society would be more justly appreciated if its objects were more fully understood.
Mr. T. Ellis
said, he fully concurred with his right hon. friend as to the utility of the Institution.
Mr. Hume
said, that all the good which he could discover had arisen from the society, was an improvement in carpentry. No doubt the cabinet-makers were greatly improved in their trade, in consequence of the lectures. But his real opinion was, that politics were more attended to there than matters of science. He should like to know how many mines had been opened, and what was done with the 7,000
l
1297
l
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he thought that the hon. gentleman, instead of proposing the reduction of this vote, would do well to go over to Dublin and subscribe 50
l
Mr. Hume
said, he would be most happy to attend to the suggestion of the right hon. secretary, if he would promise to allow him a committee on the spot.
Mr. Alderman Wood
suggested to the right hon. secretary for Ireland, to propose the admission of his hon. friend as an honorary member, as soon as he returned to that country. His hon. friend was well acquainted with the details of the Institution, and with all its proceedings, and there was no doubt that whether admitted as an honorary member or as a pecuniary subscriber, his presence would be productive of great advantage.
Mr. Alderman Thompson
thought that the right hon. secretary for Ireland should convince himself of the public utility of the vote, before he called for the vote of next year. The Horticultural Society was not supported by public subscription; and he saw no reason why the Dublin Society, as well as all others, should not be supported by individual contributions.
Mr. Monck
said, he looked upon this Institution as a national museum. It was the fashion now-a-days to have museums. Paris had her museum, London had hers, and he could see no reason why Dublin should be without one.
Sir J. Newport
said, that by the measure of the Union, England had withdrawn from Ireland her wealth and capital; and it should not be forgotten, that many of the institutions in this country, which boasted of their ability to exist without a public grant, received large donations from Irish noblemen and gentlemen resi-
1298
Mr. W. Williams
said, he was more and more confirmed in his opinion by the speech of the right hon. baronet as to the impolicy of supporting these institutions by the public money. That Irishmen contributed largely to the institutions in this country, it would ill-become him to deny. That assertion was well founded; and upon that alone he would found his opinion, that parliament should not interfere. That the Irish gentry should be so insensible to national pride and national honour, as to neglect the institutions of their own country whilst they supported those of another, was what he could never believe would be done without some good cause. The cause appeared: to him to be this—that they thought their money would be better expended on institutions which were supported by individual contributors than on establishments which were sure to be lavishly supplied with money from parliament. He had the honour and happiness to be acquainted with many Irishmen; and he was persuaded, from their national feeling, that if this grant were withdrawn, they would at once come forward to support the institutions of their own country. Once give them this stimulus, and the institutions in Ireland would soon vie in splendor and vigour with the most favoured establishments of this country.
Mr. Goulburn
said, he could not hear the people of Ireland accused of any indisposition to contribute to the support of the charitable or literary institutions of the country. There was not a disease to
1299
Mr. W. Williams
said, he must have been greatly misunderstood, if it was supposed that he meant to make the slightest charge either against any individuals connected with Ireland, or the body of the people at large. His object was, not censure, but praise. His great objection to the grant was founded upon the impolicy of supporting these institutions by the public money.
Mr. Hume
said, that he also had not the slightest idea of casting any reflection on the Irish people. If he were asked, whether he would withdraw these grants, he should answer no; but his objection to them was, that he could not learn how the money was applied. Only once point out to him how the people of Ireland could really be benefited, and he would vote double or treble the sum proposed.
On the resolution "That 10,000
l
Mr. Hume
said, he should like to know what they want with wide streets in Dublin. If the people of London widened their own streets, why should not the people of Dublin do the same? He saw here a sum of money to defray the interest of the funded debt. Now, he could not see why they should go beyond their means, or get in debt at all. This must have been done by the corporation [no, no, no, from Mr. Ellis and some others!]. Well, he thought the corporation were the only people who could have acted so foolishly. Really, to call upon the English people to pay for widening the streets of Dublin, exceeded any thing that ever came to his knowledge. Notwithstanding all that was said about the poverty of Dublin, he
1300
l
Mr. John Smith
said, his hon. friend ought to have known, that to much of the distress which had existed from time to time in Ireland, this country had been instrumental. His hon. friend was constantly objecting to the votes for Ireland, but we grant money for the purchase of pictures and works of art in this country, and why should not Ireland have the same advantages? As to the widening the streets of Dublin, he could not say, whether it was necessary or not but he would tell his hon. friend, that the inhabitants of Dublin had as good a right to public money for this purpose as the people of Scotland had for the making of the Caledonian canal, or for the repairing of their roads. He regarded this subject in quite a different light; and the only objection he had to the present vote was, lest it might be converted into a job. He should be happy to see a much more liberal and extensive grant proposed. England owed a long debt of gratitude to Ireland, for much of her present splendor and prosperity had been derived from the humiliation of Ireland. Upon that subject he would not now enter; but as an Englishman, having no connexion or interest with Ireland further than the dictates of his own conscience, he would say that if the grant were infinitely more liberal, it should have his cordial support.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that in addition to the general principles, so strongly and laudably urged by the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, and who had taken so deep an interest in the welfare of Ireland, there were local reasons which made it necessary to extend the grant to Ireland. No part of the empire had suffered more than Dublin in consequence of the removal of the parliament. The Irish parliament had always been liberal in their grants for the improvement of Dublin, and it would ill become them to be niggardly. Let the hon. member for Aberdeen only look at the money voted for improving the avenues leading to that House; for the improvements in Westminster Abbey, and other places; and he would find that it was only justice to do
1301
Mr. Hume
said, that the grants to which the right hon. gentleman had alluded, by no means justified the present grant. He considered the grant to Westminster Abbey to be very ill bestowed, especially as the public were now excluded from entering it, unless they paid a heavy fee to the Dean and Chapter. No grants had ever been made to the citizens of London for the improvement of their city.
Member.
Mr. Hume
allowed, that 1,50,000
l
Sir John Newport
rose to suggest a mode of diminishing this grant. A funded debt had been created most improperly; and now, instead of paying interest at the rate of 6 per cent, they might raise an advantageous loan, by which means a considerable saving might be effected.
On the resolution, "That 16,000
l
Mr. Hume
rose to inquire, if the reform which had last year been promised as to the stationery department had been carried into effect?
Mr. Goulburn
was not aware that any promise had been made to effect a reform, or that any reform was necessary. Formerly, there were complaints that the price of the stationery was too high, and an arrangement had in consequence been made with the person who held the patent for supplying the stationery, that he should supply it at the same rate as other
1302
Mr. Hume
said, it had been understood that the prices of stationery in Ireland were to be brought down to the level of those in England.
Mr. Goulburn
replied, that the prices could not be brought down to that level, because the greater part of the paper consumed in Ireland was English paper. The course now taken was this—a list of prices was furnished every year from England, and upon those prices 10 per cent additional was allowed in Ireland to the patentee, besides 6½ per cent, in consideration of his supplying the stationery retail, which saved the expense to government of a separate establishment.
Sir J. Newport
thought it more than questionable whether the Crown had the power to grant patents for the supply of articles for the public service. The effect of this system, which was a remnant of the monopoly abuse of the reign of Elizabeth, was, that we were paying 16½ per cent for stationery in Ireland, more than we paid for it in England. What advantage it was to Ireland that the paper consumed there should come from England, he did not well understand. If the clerks in Ireland made shift to write upon Irish paper, it would, be to say the least of it, quite as well.
Mr. Goulburn
said, the paper was furnished at the lowest rate at which the public could possibly be served. The right hon. baronet asked, why persons in the different offices could not write on Irish, instead of English paper. Now he believed the right hon. baronet himself, when he was in office never wrote on Irish paper. He was convinced, if the right hon. baronet had as many letters to write as fell to his (Mr. G.'s) lot, he would be anxious to use English paper, on account of its superior smoothness. He was sure the committee would agree with him, that it was true economy to procure a good article at an advanced price, rather than a bad one at a very low rate.
Mr. Hume
said, that when he had last year proposed that the printing of certain public documents, should be executed in England, by which a saving of 2,500
l
1303
Mr. Goulburn
said, that as to the inconsistency imputed to him, of having the printing done in Ireland and procuring the paper from England, the printing could be done, as well in Ireland as in England; but the paper could not be got so good in the former country as in the latter. If the patentee supplied the paper as cheap as it could be got elsewhere, there was economy in allowing him to continue it.
Mr. Hume
said, it appeared, from papers which had been laid before parliament, that the public had been defrauded to a considerable extent, in the stationery department in Dublin. What was the excuse which was made on that occasion? Why, they were told, that though the money went into the pocket of the master it was totally without his knowledge that the fraud was committed by his servant. There ought in his opinion, to be 2,000
l
On the resolution, "That 6,500
l
Mr. Hume
opposed the grant. He could see no reason, why a mode of promulgating proclamations should be adopted in Ireland, different from that which was followed in this country. It had been over and over again stated, that the system, pursued in Ireland, with respect
1304
l
l
Mr. Hutchinson
could not conceive why the right hon. gentleman should call for precisely the same sum this year as he had done in the last. What reason had he to suppose that the proclamations would be equally numerous?
Mr. Goulburn
defended the grant, the amount of which, he observed, was calculated with reference to the probable expenditure. Of course, if there were any surplus, it would be accounted for. He wished it to be understood, that the notices of commutation under the tithe bill, which, in consequence of a clause introduced into that bill at the suggestion of the hon. member for Limerick, must be inserted in the Gazette, had last year created an expense of 2,000
l
Mr. S. Rice
thought, that this explanation of the right hon. gentleman only made the matter worse. For, if 6,000
l
l
Sir J. Newport
was also at a loss to know why, because this item of expenditure had amounted to a certain sum in the last year, it was to be estimated as amounting to exactly the same sum in the present.
Mr. Goulburn
observed, that if there was any surplus remaining of the grant, it would be satisfactorily accounted for.
Mr. Bennet
alluded to some abuses
1305
Mr. Dawson
said, that the proclamations in question were frequently inserted to fill up the country papers, without being paid for by government.
Mr. Hume
said, that if the country papers did not want money for the insertion of the proclamations, why vote this grant?
The committee divided: for the Amendment 27. Against it, 51.
List of the Minority.
Althorp, visc.
Newport, sir J.
Allen, J. H.
Palmer C. F.
Bennet, hon. H. G.
Parnell, sir H.
Calcraft, J.
Robarts, G.
Calvert, C.
Rumbold, C.
Duncannon, visc.
Rice, S.
Evans, W.
Rickford, W.
Hamilton, lord A.
Robinson, sir G.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Smith, J.
Hume, J.
Tierney, rt. hon. G.
Hutchinson, hon. C. H.
Webb, Ed.
James, W.
Wood, alderman.
Kennedy, T. F.
Leader, W,
TELLER.
Monck, J. B.
Gordon, R.
On the resolution, "That 27,000
l
Mr. Spring Rice
observed, that the Dublin aldermen, who received salaries for attending at the Police offices as justices, did not devote their time to the duties of those offices, but carried on business in Dublin.
Mr. T. Ellis
defended the aldermen. He said, that the barristers, who were also justices, gave as much of their time as was necessary, to the business of the police offices.
Mr. Hume
said, he did not think that the member for Dublin was the best possible judge of the mode of discharging the duties of a public officer. That hon. member received an enormous salary, for acting as master in Chancery in Dublin—an office supposed to have responsible and arduous duties attached to it, until, to the
1306
Mr. Ellis
said, that the hon. gentleman seemed ignorant of the constitution of the corporation. There were but a few aldermen who received salaries as police magistrates. The great body of the aldermen did not receive salaries.
On the resolution, "That 19,938
l
s
d
Sir H. Parnell
said, he was of opinion, that the numerous laws for regulating the linen trade of Ireland were no longer necessary. There were upwards of three hundred regulations for the managing of the making, packing, and selling of yarn and linen. Similar laws had existed in Scotland, but were repealed last year; and every one concerned in the Scotch manufacture, allowed that the repeal had been attended with advantage to the trade. These numerous laws were not only attended with vexation to the weavers and spinners, but were the source of frauds being practised
1307
Mr. Spring Rice
was of opinion, that the cases of Ireland and Scotland were not analogous. He strongly urged the new modelling of the Linen Board.
Mr. Hume
said, that the linen trade was carried on in Scotland exactly in the same way as in Ireland; that the weavers lived over the country; that the laws about seal-masters, inspectors, and making-up yarn and linen, had been exactly the same in Scotland as they are in Ireland; and that the greatest advantages had been derived from the repeal of those laws. There was no second opinion on the subject in Scotland.
Mr. Dawson
contended, that the purchasers of linen in Ireland were perfectly satisfied with the laws: and that, as the weaving was carried on by poor people, there would be endless frauds, were it not for the inspection and measuring of the linen.
Sir G. Hill
referred to the report of the select committee of 1822, which expressed an opinion in favour of the policy of these laws. He denied that the repeal of the bounties would injure the Irish trade.
Mr. Vesey Fitzgerald
animadverted strongly upon the observations of the last speaker upon the bounties, and justified the laws as necessary to the protection of the trade. He, however, fully agreed as to the propriety of some alteration in the constitution of the Linen Board. He strongly objected to the opinions of the hon. baronet (sir H. Parnell) concerning the repeal of the bounties.
Sir John Newport
urged the necessity of making the Linen Board a more efficient body.
Mr. C. Grant
said, he was fully sensible of the many vexatious and useless regulations which fettered the linen trade of Ireland. He could not feel at all satisfied with the report of the select committee. He wondered how any trade could have prospered under these regulations. This code of laws which had been in existence for a century, had been varied almost every ten years, thus keeping the trade in a. constant state of uncertainty.
1308
Sir H. Parnell
begged to assure his right hon. friend (Mr. V. Fitzgerald), that he had not formed his opinions about the Linen bounties, merely upon theory. He believed that all the acknowledged general principles of trade could be sustained by reference to facts and experience. By such a reference he was ready to contend, that the bounties could not do what the advocates of them said they would do; namely, increase the employment of the people. The employment of the people could not be increased without an increase of capital. But how would the bounties increase capital? The fact was, that in proportion as the bounties brought capital into employment in the South of Ireland, to make linen, they would take it from some other occupation, and thus throw as many people out of employ in one way, as they gave employment to in another. The justification which had been set up for the linen laws by the member for Derry (Mr. Dawson), that they were necessary to prevent frauds, was the same that had been regularly advanced in support of the policy of all regulating laws. It was right to attend to the interests of the weavers as well as to those of the buyers; but he could not approve of so many penal regulations. This doctrine of protecting purchasers was founded on the mistaken views of the motives that influenced all men who depended upon their industry for their bread. The necessity of securing purchasers, was a certain inducement to fairness and honesty, and was quite a sufficient guarantee against all frauds. Purchasers had it always in their power to protect themselves against dishonesty; and no better course could be taken by the legislature than leaving every thing upon the wholesome saying of "caveat emptor."
The several resolutions were agreed to.
1309
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 22, 1824
LINEN BOUNTIES.]
Mr. Agar Ellis
presented a petition from Tipperary, against the proposed plan for taking away the Bounties upon Linen. Seeing the chancellor of the Exchequer in his place, he wished to ask him whether it was not possible to defer the measure in contemplation for ten years? Nobody was more in favour of a liberal system of trade than he was; but there was an obvious difference between the situation of England and Ireland, and in legislating for both countries that difference ought never to be lost sight of. There was little or no capital in Ireland; and the slightest check to the coarse linen trade would be fatal to it, in its present comparatively infant state.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that if he could persuade himself, that the course recommended would promote the real welfare of Ireland, he should be ready to sacrifice a rigid adherence to sound principles to the consideration of the peculiar circumstances of the case. He could not, however, bring himself to believe, that any abstinence on the part of government in dealing with these bounties would be productive of advantage to Ireland. The announcement of the intention of ministers in this respect might have produced some alarm and inconvenience; but he was satisfied that nothing was more likely ultimately to prejudice the extension of the linen trade of Ireland, than the continuance of the existing bounties. His proposition was, that they should be reduced gradually, at the rate of one fifth every year; thus accommodating his plan, in a degree, to the wishes of the petitioners. The reduction was to commence in January 1825.
Mr. Agar Ellis
observed, that what was contemplated, was rather a hard measure upon the South of Ireland. In the north, toe bounty had operated for thirty years, and had been roost beneficial; and it was still required in the South, to encourage a growing manufacture.
Sir John Newport
objected to any thing like a rapid reduction of the bounties. They ought to be preserved as long as possible.
Mr. Hutchinson
called the attention of the chancellor of the Exchequer to the strong impression made by this measure in the neighbourhood of Cork. Those
1310
Sir R. Fergusson
trusted, that the chancellor of the Exchequer would persevere in his intention with respect to the abolition of the bounties. The manufacturers of Scotland were persuaded that the linen trade could support itself without the bounties.
Mr. Calcraft
said, that in Scotland the manufacturers had enjoyed the benefit of the bounty so long, that they were now out of danger; but the question was, bad not the bounty contributed to the placing them in that state? How long had the manufacturers of Scotland been in such a state, that they could disregard the bounty? Bounties, no doubt, were bad in principle; but, when persons had been induced, under the faith of them, to invest their capital in an infant manufacture—when, by means of the manufacture so encouraged, districts had been preserved in tranquillity in the midst of disturbed counties, and when it was most important to the tranquillity of Ireland to provide, even at some expense, for the occupation of its large population, it was worthy of consideration, whether they should repeal them at the present moment.
Mr. V. Fitzgerald
said, that the supporters of the bounty did not contend for its indefinite continuance, but for its continuance at the present time, on account of the infant state of the trade, and of the particular circumstances of the part of Ireland where it was fostered.
Ordered to be printed.
WINE DUTIES.]
Mr. T. Wilson
presented a petition from the importers and dealers, praying for the reduction of the Duties on Wine. In doing so, he wished to ask the chancellor of the Exchequer whether it was his intention to move at all in the question during the present session; because, from the uncertainty prevailing on the subject, no business at all was doing in this commodity?
Mr. Warre
said, he did not ask the chancellor of the Exchequer to look at the subject with a view to any relief to
1311
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that by the discussion that had taken place on this subject, he was placed in the difficult situation of having his silence and his declarations alike misconstrued. If, however, there had been any inconvenience resulting to the trade from the expectations existing respecting the remission of the Wine duties, he could say that the gentlemen engaged in that trade had gratuitously and entirely brought the inconvenience on themselves. Nothing which he had said in that House, nor in his communication with those gentlemen, from whom he had derived most valuable information, could have justified an expectation that the matter was to be taken up by him, at least as a matter of course. He had, it was true, never disguised the opinion which he entertained, that the productiveness of the duties was not commensurate with the rate of them, and that therefore a prima facie case was made out, why those duties should be reduced; but he had always persevered in reserving the expression of an opinion as to the fit time for altering them. It was to be recollected, that in touching these duties, they were affecting a very material branch of revenue; and though in time the increase of consumption might make up the loss to the revenue, there was no doubt, that, from the allowance that would be necessarily made on stock in hand, there would be, for the time, a considerable loss. At that moment, therefore, when they were dealing with other branches of the revenue, and making, in various ways, a considerable sacrifice, he considered himself justified in withholding any expression of his opinion on the subject. Government could not do every thing at once; and even if they could suffer the loss arising to the revenue, it would not be desirable, by so general a change, to throw all trade into confusion.
Mr. Wallace
said, that if the subject
1312
Ordered to be printed.
SILK TRADE.]
Mr. Fowell Buxton
presented a petition from that part of the united kingdom, where there was the most condensed population employed in manufactures—the parish of Bethnalgreen. That parish contained 50,000 people, dependent on the silk manufacture for support. The petition was signed by 7,000 persons all housekeepers, who stated that they apprehended their entire ruin from the abolition of the restrictions on the importation of Foreign silks. They expressed themselves in temperate language, thanked the House and the chancellor of the Exchequer for the postponement of the day of their destruction till 1826, and prayed that it might be further postponed till 1829.
Mr. Calcraft
presented a petition from the retail silk dealers of Westminster, praying that their claims for compensation-might be considered. These petitioners stood in a situation of peculiar hardship, and he trusted their claims would be taken into consideration by the right hon. gentleman opposite. Most of these retail dealers had large pieces of silk on hand, to the extent of 160, 170, or 180 yards, from which what was technically called the fag-end, consisting of a piece of two or three inches appended to a small portion of the silk, had been cut, as a pattern to show their customers. Now, whatever might be the dimensions or the value of a piece of silk, if a small portion at the fagg-end were cut off in this way, the whole was considered as a cut piece, and the holder was consequently precluded from availing himself of the drawback to which he was entitled for uncut pieces of silk. In many cases, retail traders would not, from this cause, receive one-fourth of the allowance to which they were equitably entitled. The only answer which had been urged against granting compensation to the petitioners was, that it was not usual to make allowances to retail dealers, but it should be recollected, that it was competent to these retail dealers to deliver their goods into the
1313
d
s
l
l
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
thought that, as the House was shortly going into the committee on the silk trade, it would be better to reserve the discussion of this subject for that committee.
Mr. Hobhouse
said, he had been instructed by that part of his constituents interested in this measure, to support the prayer of the petition. He begged to observe that, up to Friday last, the petitioners were wholly unaware that the provisions of the act would have such an operation. They were anxious that the whole subject should be discussed, and he was quite sure, that when that discussion took place, the right hon. gentleman would see the fairness of their claims, and be ready to accede to them. As two classes of traders had received compensation, it would be extremely hard on these petitioners, if an allowance were not extended to them. He approved of the general principles of the proposed measure; at the same time he thought the claims of these petitioners justly entitled to the equitable consideration of the chancellor of the Exchequer.
Ordered to lie on the table.
The House then resolved itself into a committee upon the Silk-trade bill, and counsel were called in, and heard at the bar, in behalf of the petitioners against the bill.
Mr. Harrison
opened their case. He recited the various acts of parliament by which the trade had, up to the present time, been regulated and maintained that the present was not a proper period for altering the laws by which the silk manufacture was protected, because the manufacturers in this country possessed none of the advantages which were essen-
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The five first clauses of the silk-trade bill were then read and agreed to, without any amendments.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
then informed the committee, that the next clause was that to which the petition presented by the hon. member for Wareham particularly adverted. The clause was as follows:—"And be it further enacted, That it shall be lawful for any person to bring and deposit, on or before the said 25th day of March, 1824, in any warehouse to be approved of by the commissioners of Customs, any raw silk, or any thrown silk, on which the duties of Customs shall have been paid (not being less in quantity than three hundred pounds weight), there to be kept and received in such manner as the commissioners of Customs shall direct, until after the said twenty-fifth day of March, 1824." Such was the provision of the bill as it now stood. The committee therefore perceived, that there was no specific provision between cut and uncut goods, and that no quantity under 300
lbs
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Mr. Calcraft
expressed his satisfaction at the very frank manner in which the chancellor of the Exchequer had met the objection to which he had alluded, when he presented the petition from the mercers of Westminster that evening. That attention and promptitude were in unison with the right hon. gentleman's general conduct whenever the interests of any part of the community were concerned, and reflected the greatest credit upon him. He, therefore, did not despair, that having gone so far to relieve the great body of the trade in question, the right hon. gentleman would proceed a step further. If he would grant the drawback to cut pieces of silk of thirty yards, he would afford great relief to the dealers, and by so doing put an end to every complaint.
Mr. Wallace
apprehended, that if the Committee once departed from the definite principle, as laid down in the suggestion of his right hon. friend, namely, to limit the drawback to pieces uncut, or such as were cut merely for the exhibiting of patterns, a very undue preference would be given to the dealer in London, and denied to the dealer in the country. With the latter description, the stock on hand consisted of cut pieces under thirty yards; and on what principle could relief, if afforded to the London mercer, be denied to them? The best principle was, to refuse the bounties altogether to pieces cut for the purposes of sale.
Mr. Alderman Wood
hoped, that the relief would be general, and extend to the whole of the retail trade, whether in town or country. He suggested to the chancellor of the Exchequer, that it was the practice of the silk trade to get pieces cut from the loom, and that, as the provision now stood, the relief of drawbacks would not be applicable to such pieces.
Mr. Alderman Thompson
adverted to the exaggerated impression that had been circulated abroad with respect to the a-mount of these drawbacks. It had been stated most erroneously at a million. He had been informed by a very eminent person in the silk line, on whose veracity he could repose the fullest confidence, that it would not exceed from 250.000
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Mr. Birch
was of opinion, that the relief intended to be given by this clause would be useful only to the dealer, and not to the public.
Lord A. Hamilton
observed, that the statement of the hon. member who had just sat down went to justify the chancellor of the Exchequer in removing all bounties whatsoever. He did not think the regulation now proposed was of such a nature as would effect the whole object which the right hon. gentleman intended. He ought to lay down some principle, some distinctive line, and to abide by it. He said he would admit cut articles to draw the bounty. Now, he asked whether there was any specific quantity up to which he would allow the bounty to be paid?
Mr. W. Williams
said, that the hon. member for Nottingham was not at all inconsistent in the argument he had used. His assertion was, that the drawback would be of no service to the public, but would benefit the mercer, who would put the amount in his pocket. He was precisely of the same opinion. The mercer's profit was at present so considerable, that on large orders he could abate 3
d.
d
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Mr. Calcraft
said, that the argument of the hon. member went to an extraordinary length. According to him, the chancellor of the Exchequer ought to adhere to his first proposition, be it good or bad. The hon. member ought, however, to recollect, that the chancellor of the Exchequer had already altered his plan. The importation of foreign silk was to have commenced on the 5th of July, 1824; but the right hon. gentleman had reconsidered the matter; and, in conformity with representations which had been made to him on the subject, the importation of foreign silk was postponed till July 1826. Such evil counsel as had been given by the hon. member was sufficient to corrupt even a chancellor of the Exchequer. The hon. member said, that at present, the mercer could afford, on large orders, to give up 3
d
d
d
d
Mr. W. Williams
said, he had never argued, that the chancellor of the Exchequer should persist in a measure when once brought in, whether it was right or wrong. He had stated, and he would again state, that the right hon. gentleman had anxiously attended to all parties. He had conceded more than enough; and the more he conceded, the more would be demanded. He should be ashamed of himself if he acted like some of those gentlemen who were continually goading ministers to adopt the principle of free and unfettered trade, but who, the moment an attempt was made to act upon that principle, immediately turned round and thwarted the experiment by every means in their power. He believed the measures proposed by ministers were calculated to serve the best interests of the country; and impressed with that feeling, he should be ashamed of himself if he did not give them his humble but strenuous support.
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Mr. Hume
then moved to add the following words, "or to pieces, being cut, of not less than thirty yards in length."
Mr. Baring
professed himself at a loss to comprehend what the hon. member for Weymouth meant by advising the chancellor of the Exchequer to make a stand. The only object which any man could have in view on this subject Was, to endeavour to do his duty to all parties concerned. With respect to cut pieces, it ought to be recollected, that a great portion of the stock of the country dealer consisted of cut pieces. And where would be the greater difficulty of making a return of the duty on cut pieces of thirty yards in length, when sent to the warehouses, than on whole pieces? To limit the measure to cut pieces of that length would exclude all scraps, remnants, &c. He hoped the right hon. gentleman would not adhere so rigidly to his principles as to deny this concession. He strongly recommended also, that the valuation of the duty to be allowed as drawback might take place in the shops of the dealers in silk. The country dealers declared that nothing could be more easy than for the excise officers in the different towns to take the stock of the dealers in silk at their respective shops. Such a proceeding would save much of the trouble and inconvenience that must result from sending the goods to the warehouses.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that the paramount difficulty in this, case had been, to carry the principle into effect with as little inconvenience as possible to the dealers. If the suggestion of the hon. gentleman were adopted, government would be obliged to send Custom-house officers to every town in the kingdom, and heaven knew where they were to find them? Officers had been sent to Nottingham, because the silk-manufacture was carried on there, and they had also been stationed at all the sea-ports. Persons, therefore, who were included in his amendment, would naturally find their way to the officers at the nearest station. With regard to the amendment, it was quite clear that the further the principle of remitting duty was pushed, the more would the difficulties in carrying the measure into execution be multiplied. He therefore felt it his duty to oppose it.
Mr. Philips
supported the amendment.
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Mr. R. Smith
expressed his doubts, how far it would be practicable to ascertain that pieces professing to be cut merely for exhibiting patterns, had not been cut for sale.
Mr. Herries
observed, that in the first place there was the declaration of the dealer; from which, if doubted, there would be an appeal to the officer. But the fact was, that the general length of the pieces was well known. If the amendment were adopted, every piece must be measured, which would be productive of the greatest trouble and inconvenience.
Mr. Calcraft
remarked, that the trouble and inconvenience would be on the part of the owner of the goods. If he thought they would not be compensated by the allowance, he would not undergo them.
The Committee divided, for the Amendment 30; Against it 76: Majority 46.
On the clause being read which fixed the 5th July, 1826, as the period at which the prohibition on the importation of foreign silks was to cease,
Mr. Baring
begged to be allowed to say a few parting words. The committee had heard, in a speech from counsel, which to him seemed to be most satisfactory and impressive, although he was sorry to observe that it did not appear to have produced much effect on the committee, that the manufacturers were decidedly of opinion, that the period at which the competition of foreign manufacturers was to be admitted was much too early. With a view of recording his opinion, rather than with any hope of inducing the committee to adopt his proposition, he should move as an amendment, to substitute "the fifth of July 1829," for the words, "the fifth of July 1826;" thereby complying with the wish expressed to that House by a number of petitioners on the subject. Even supposing the measure a right one, those who were deeply interested in it conceived that five years were indispensable to enable them to meet (if meet they could) the competition with which they were threatened. With regard to the policy of choosing the silk trade as that on which this first experiment of liberal commercial policy was to be tried, he could not help remarking, that it seemed somewhat extraordinary, while the linen and woollen and other trades were allowed to remain untouched, that his majesty's government should select, for the purpose, of making
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Mr. R. Gordon
said, he could not help remarking that many of the advocates for free trade drew a very strange distinction. They were all friends, cordial friends, to the principle of free trade; but, the moment any particular measure was attempted, which affected their interests, or the interests of their constituents, the principle of free trade was opposed without any hesitation. He had often heard the hon. gentleman who spoke last, quote Adam Smith with 'applause, though he was now disposed to cavil with the political economists.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he did not wish to prolong the discussion, but there were some observations in the speech of the hon. member for Taunton, to which he was desirous to offer some reply. The hon. gentleman wished the House to understand that there was no acquiescence on the part of the trade to this measure, and had alluded to a letter from the manufacturers at Derby, to shew that their opinions were unfavourable to the experiment. With the permission of the House he also would read a letter which he had received from the trade established in Derby, in which they enclosed a copy of the letter quoted by the hon. gentleman and sent to the committee in London. In that letter it was stated, that though a few of the body in that
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Mr. Baring
repeated, that those who consented to the measure were misled by a desire for the present bounties.
Mr. Fowell Buxton
said, he was ready to take his share of the obloquy which might attach to those who opposed the present measure. In the reply of the right hon. the chancellor of the Exchequer, he had not heard one word as to the essential point, whether the period was to be postponed from the year 1826 to the year 1829 or not. He looked at this question principally with a view to the interests of the labouring classes, who were the people most concerned. This experiment of a free trade had been already tried. In 1761 the prohibitions had been repealed for five years; but, at the end of that time, such a quantity of misery had resulted therefrom, that they were again imposed, and were afterwards
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l
l
l
Mr. Philips
said, that the silk trade had not been improved, in point of machinery like other trades, because it had wanted the stimulus of competition. He had observed, that up to a very late period, the towns in Cheshire and Stafford shire, where this manufactory was established, had not in-
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Mr. Wynn
explained the conduct of the Board of Control in having refused the application of a young gentleman, spoken to on a previous evening, to be allowed to go out to the East Indies to trade in silks. He knew positively that no such application had ever been made. An application had indeed been made to permit a clerk to go to the house of Palmer and company, which was refused; but no application whatever had been made to allow a clerk to go out for the special purpose of promoting the silk trade.
Mr. Haldimand
explained, that it was not expedient to send out a clerk for this special purpose, as it added much to the expense. He thought our advantages were greater than those possessed by France. The silk of Italy might be brought from that country at an expense which was very trifling compared to its value. We derived great advantages from our trade with India; and he had no doubt that, in a few years, we should export India silk both to France and Italy. He was Convinced, that the stimulus now to be given to the silk trade would, in a short time, make our machinery superior to that of France. The silk merchants, who trade on commission, did not wish for an extension of time. He had received a letter from some of them, begging
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Mr. Littleton,
on behalf of the silk trade of Staffordshire, disowned any participation in the compromise offered by the hon. member for Taunton; not that the manufacturers would object to the extension of time, if given to them, but they would not give up the remission of duties promised them to obtain it.
Mr. Ellice
asked the chancellor of the Exchequer, if it would not be possible to extend the period from July to October, 1826, as that would give the trade the benefit of a whole year? Like the hon. member for Staffordshire, he was instructed not to consent to the compromise recommended by the hon. member for Taunton. It was his opinion, that we might, in a short time, successfully compete with France. In some branches we were certainly behind that country; but he had no doubt, if the principles of free trade were extended to the necessaries of life, that we should in a short time, be able to surpass her.
Mr. Hume
assured the hon. member for Taunton, that his fears as to our being deficient in point of machinery were wholly groundless. He had lately seen evidence to prove that, in every branch except the silk trade, our machinery was decidedly superior to that of every nation in Europe: and he was quite convinced, that we were behind in this particular branch, only in consequence of the restraints and shackles which had been imposed on that trade. He trusted that the chancellor of the Exchequer would proceed steadily in his project.
Mr. Alderman Thompson
was for postponing the operation of the measure till October, so as to secure the manufacturers and dealers in the transactions of the summer trade.
Mr. Alderman Bridges
thought the letter read by the chancellor of the Exchequer of little consequence, as Manchester was not a large silk manufacturing place.
The amendment was negatived.
Mr. Ellice
then rose to call the attention of the chancellor of the Exchequer to what he had before suggested, and to ask, if it would not be possible to postpone the time till October 1826.
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The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that first of all he had intended that the 5th of January 1828, should be the period; but, on communicating with the trade, they had suggested the 5th of July, to which he had acceded, and they had expressed themselves satisfied. New they asked for three months more; and he had no doubt, if that were granted, that they would then wish for another three months to get rid of their winter stock, as they now wanted to get rid of their summer stock. The hon. member had stated no sufficient reason why his request should be acceded to; and he therefore should adhere to the period now fixed.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Tuesday, March 23, 1824
GAME LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.]
Mr. James
rose to present a petition from Mr. William Cobbett, against this bill. The hon. member observed, that this new Game bill made a species of property of a vast variety of wild fowl, which were never before considered to be property. The hon. member for Yorkshire seemed to have omitted scarcely a single bird except the wild goose; which it was to be presumed he had left out from reverence to the immortal Shakspeare, who had said, that "the wild goose soars aloft, unclaimed of any man." The petitioner prayed, not only that the pending bill might be repealed, but that the House might be radically reformed.
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Mr. Stuart Wortley
thought, from what had been stated about rabbits in the petition that the petitioner could not have
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Ordered to lie on the table.
NEWFOUNDLAND FISHERIES BILL.]
Mr. Wilmot Horton
rose to move for leave to bring in a bill to make provision for the better conduct of the Fisheries on the Banks of Newfoundland, and to consolidate into one act the statutes in force regarding them. The hon. member observed, that this was but a small part of the general bill which had, in the course of last session, been introduced with respect to that colony, and which had been printed for the information of members. That bill, which the House was aware had not been passed, was divided into five different beads. The first related to a revision of the courts of justice in the colony; the second had reference to questions of insolvency; the third contained clauses with respect to marriages; the fourth was for the internal regulation and management of the town of St. John's; and the last was for the consolidation of the several statutes on the subject of the fisheries. The last part was the only one to which the bill now proposed to be brought in would refer. The other parts would be formed into a separate bill, which would originate with the House of Lords. As the object of the bill was so limited, he did not think it necessary to take up further time on the subject, or to go into any details upon the other parts, which would come more properly when they were before the House.
After a few words from Mr. Bright, who expressed a hope, that any additions which had been made to this part of the measure since last year would be marked as such, leave was given to bring in the bill.
ABOLITION OF SLAVERY.]
Mr. Hume,
on presenting a petition from the minister, elders, deacons, and members of the Scots Church, in Well street, Mary-la-bonne, against the continuance of Slavery in the West Indies, observed, that he intended to take an opportunity, upon some open day, of submitting a motion to the House, the object of which would be, to pledge the House, if possible, not to proceed to any measures of emancipation of the negro slaves, infringing upon or endangering private property, without affording recompence or compensation to the holders. Vicious as the system of slavery
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Ordered to lie on the table.
ALIEN BILL.]
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that he rose for the purpose of discharging a duty which he considered to be imposed upon him as a minister of the Crown. His object was, to request that parliament would continue to the executive government, the possession of those powers which they already enjoyed, with respect to Aliens arriving into and residing in this country. In doing this, he felt that he laboured under some embarrassment, the nature of which must suggest itself to every gentleman who heard him. Of late years, the subject had undergone repeated and detailed discussion, and it was probable that every argument in favour of and against the measure was familiar to the minds of the majority of the members present. He was, on the one hand, reluctant to weary the attention of the House by the repetition of arguments with which they were well acquainted; whilst, on the other hand, he was still more reluctant to have it supposed, that he passed over the question in silence, because he considered it a matter of indifference, and not deserving of particular notice. He would therefore prefer to subject himself to the embarrassment occasioned by pursuing the former course, and proceed, certainly as briefly as he could, to state the grounds upon which he proposed to continue the Alien Act, hoping that those gentlemen who considered that he was unnecessarily occupying their time, would excuse him, on account of the motives which induced him to do so.
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Mr. Hobhouse
lamented the necessity he was under of following the right hon. gentleman over the beaten track which he had considered himself under the necessity of pursuing. Before he did so, however, he could not help reminding the right hon. gentleman now, as he had done two years ago, that there were many individuals in the House of Commons, who did suppose that when he (the right hon. gentleman) had entered upon his career as one of the first ministers of the Crown, he would have abandoned the renewal of a measure which both in this country and on the continent was looked upon by the best friends of rational liberty, by those who were reckoned the guardians of freedom, as an utter violation of the principles which ought to regulate the government of a free nation. The right hon. gentleman had said, that he was afraid of wearing out the House by trespassing upon their patience, while he recapitulated the arguments so often used in support of this bill. Now, for his own part, he entertained very different apprehensions from those expressed by the right hon. gentleman; for he rather feared that his friends who surrounded him, wearied out by a long and hopeless defence of the constitution of the country—a constitution the validity of which, until of late times, was never doubted—would be-
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Mr. Wynn
rose, to say a few words upon this bill, in consequence of the allusions which the hon. member for Westminster had made to a speech which he had formerly delivered in opposition to it. He contended, that as the circumstances of England at that time and at the present were widely different from each other, there was no inconsistency in his voting against it at that time, and in his voting for it at the present, especially as a clause was now introduced into it, which obviated a great many of his former objections. Of the Alien bill, with all its severe enactments, he had always been a supporter during the war; because he conceived it to be a measure which was required by paramount necessity. He had never, however, supported it on the plea, that the powers which it granted belonged, as matter of prerogative, to the Crown. He did not formerly believe, nor did he now believe, in the existence of any such prerogative; on the contrary, he was convinced, that this bill would never have been submitted to parliament, if the existence of such a prerogative, or the exercise of it, could have been satisfactorily made out by legal evidence. During the period of the French Revolution, such a measure was unquestionably requisite; but he had considered, that the necessity of its continuance had expired with the revolution. An alarm was naturally enough excited, in 1793, when France began to assume those appearances which the hon. gentleman seemed desirous to have introduced into this country [No, no!]. He contended, that the arguments of the hon. member would go that length. The hon. member had quoted a passage from a speech, which he (Mr. W.) had
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Sir J. Mackintosh
said, he rose thus early on the present occasion, because the state of his physical strength was at present such as would not permit him to wait for a later hour in which to address the House. He would commence the few observations he had to make, by bearing his testimony to the correctness of the statement which his right hon. friend had just made, respecting the words which he had used in opposing this measure in the year 1816. He recollected his right hon. friend's speech well; and without entering into the merit of it more particularly, would simply observe, that he should avail himself, with great satisfaction, of the assurance which his right hon. friend then made, and had since repeated, that he did not believe that the Crown ever possessed the prerogative, for which another right hon. gentleman was now contending—he meant the prerogative of sending foreigners out of the kingdom at its sole will and pleasure. His right hon. friend said, that there was a wide difference between the situation of the country in 1816, and its present situation in 1824. He acknowledged that there was; but he left it to the House to decide, which of the two years formed the more specious defence for passing an Alien bill; the year 1816 being the first year after the conclusion of the war which had convulsed Europe to its centre, the year 182i being the eighth year of an uninterrupted peace. As he had not seen his right hon. friend in his place, when this measure was under discussion in 1822, he supposed it had then met with his disapprobation. And if it had then met with his disapprobation, he should like to know, why his right hon. friend anticipated more danger from revolutionary principles in 1824, than he had anticipated from them in 1822? The right hon. secretary who had introduced this bill, had put forth a defence of it, which he had Conducted with much dexterity and no little conciliation. He had made great use of a figure of speech called "euphemismus" by grammarians, a figure which consisted in giving agreeable
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hysteron proteron.
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espionage
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Mr. William Lamb,
after adverting to the policy of this country, from the time of the Reformation to the seven years war, during which entire period so little favourable was she to the indiscriminate visit of foreigners, that her great object was, to set all the Protestants of Europe in a league against the Catholics—a measure which, he contended, was reasonable in itself, and founded on a policy which, though necessarily liable to fluctuate with circumstances, had in view the best interests of the country—proceeded to advert to the arguments against the present bill, which the hon. and learned member for Knaresborough had derived from historical analogy, nothing, he observed, was so unsafe, nothing so uncertain—in reasoning, as analogy; but, if any one thing could be more unsafe and more uncertain than another, it was historical analogy. It was impossible to know the circumstances precisely as they existed; and therefore it became very easy to depreciate what was done at this time, or what was done at that time, and to scatter sarcasm and invective on affairs, that probably were entitled to be very differently treated. The hon. member for Westminster had taken a very
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Lord John Russell
said, it was with extreme surprise he had heard the speech of his hon. friend: because the whole tenor of that address had been totally hostile to the spirit of the British constitution, and utterly subversive of that freedom of speech which they ranked amongst their most valued privileges. They were told by his hon. friend, that those who spoke of the Holy Alliance, or of the allied sovereigns, ought to speak of them in measured terms. They were told, that it was not wise to offend them; and that personal remarks might produce unpleasant consequences. But his hon. friend, who thought it not right to insult those who were at the head of armies, had felt no compunction in blaming the unfortunate Spaniards, who were now reduced to a state of misery and distress, which ought to have excited commiseration, if not a nobler feeling. He would ask whether there was any man in that House who believed that the indignation of the Spaniards against their government had been roused by
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Mr. Pelham
spoke in favour of the measure, and maintained, that very injurious consequences would have resulted if the Alien bill had not been in existence during the late-war.
Mr. Hutchinson
said, he could not allow the House to divide until he had answered some of the observations of the hon. member for Hertfordshire. Until that night he had not imagined that the House of Commons was so humbled that any hon. member, especially an hon. member who represented a county, and called himself independent, would have had the hardihood to rise in his place and read a lecture to the House, because, forsooth, many of its members had, for years past, felt it their duty to use the strongest language which they could command, in reprobation of the miscalled Holy Alliance, for the perfect iniquity of their hostility against the liberties of mankind. He, with others, had again and again raised his voice as high as he could in reprobation of their acts; and, if he could command the talents of the hon. member for Hertfordshire—talents which the hon. member had that night abused—he would devote those talents solely to their reprobation. No language could possibly be too strong, when speaking of the conduct of the continental sovereigns. He repeated, that if the hon. member would lend him his eloquence, he would instantly apply it in their reprobation. Although he, and those who thought with him on the subject, had not found the House of Commons to go the full length of their condemnation of the conduct of the Holy Alliance, he hoped they were not so mean and so subjugated as to receive the hon. gentleman's
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Mr. W. Lamb
spoke to order. He said, he had distinctly reprobated the conduct of France towards Spain.
Mr. Hutchinson
resumed. He would only say, that his impression had been this—that he should have left the House a disgraced man, if he had left it without joining his noble friend in reprobating the comments which the hon. gentleman had applied to the sentiments expressed by those who condemned the late war, and who, he trusted in his heart, would continue to condemn it. But was the hon. gentleman so infatuated as to think that matters could remain as they stood at present? Though Spain was prostrate now, was it likely that she would lie prostrate long? And if she did, was there any safety, any hope, for the liberties of England? The hon. gentleman spoke of strong language. He (Mr. H.) had used as strong epithets in speaking of the conduct of the Holy Alliance as any member of the House. He desired to be considered, at the then moment, as repeating every one of them; and he only forbore to repeat them from a consideration for the valuable time which he was occupying. He had over and over again called them tyrants, and he now called them tyrants once more. The present bill should have his opposition in every stage; because he considered it unnecessary to the protection of this country. It was, in fact, a part of that system of tyranny which the Holy Alliance exerted all their influence and power to promote. Though there might be periods when the government of this country
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Mr. Warre
said, he was not prepared to vote for the resolution of the hon. member for Westminster, though he concurred with his noble friend, in the regret he had expressed at that part of the speech of the hon. member for Hertfordshire, which alluded to what he had called the democratic party in Europe. He would ask the hon. gentleman, whether it was not that very democratic party which had given spirit and efficiency to the army of Europe in 1813, and to the series of exploits which led to the fall of Paris? He would further appeal to facts, whether the democratic spirit had taken the mischievous turn ascribed to it, until the allied sovereigns had manifested a disposition to break faith with the people to whose energies they had been indebted for victory? If the hon. gentleman wanted historical facts, he would refer him to the edicts of Prussia, in which the divine right of kings had been openly asserted, and to the manifestoes of the combined sovereigns, in which the same
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Lord Althorp
maintained, that nothing but the most urgent necessity could justify the House in granting such a power to his majesty's ministers, as was given by the provisions of this bill. The speech of the right hon. secretary, was an answer to what had been stated on a former occasion, and what he seemed to think was likely to be repeated op the present. Bat what reason had the right hon. gentleman assigned for bringing forward the measure now? Merely that the secretary for foreign affairs might prevent plots from being formed in this country against foreign governments. The sole ground, therefore, upon which the House was required to legislate, was the danger to which foreign countries might otherwise be exposed. But if the law, as it stood, was not sufficient to prevent such plots, why did not ministers bring in a bill to remedy the defects of the existing law, instead of claiming to be invested with arbitrary power? That would have been the constitutional mode of proceeding. He should vote certainly against the bill, and for the amendment, if it was pressed to a division; although he confessed he would rather it had not been proposed. He agreed in the spirit of the amendment entirely; but he thought that some members might be inimical to it, who nevertheless were disposed to give their votes against the general measure. For this reason, he could rather have wished that the hon. member for Westminster had been contented to record his opinion of the conduct of the Holy Alliance in some later stage of the bill, and suffered the short question of "Ay, or no," to be put in the beginning.
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he should not I avail himself to any extent of the privilege of reply. There were now two questions before the House: his own proposition for leave to bring in the bill as already described, and the amendment of
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The House divided: For Mr. Hob-house's amendment 70. Against it 131. Majority 61.
List of the Minority.
Allen, J. H.
Monck, T. B.
Althorp, visc.
Moore, P.
Anson, hon. G.
Newport, sir J.
Barrett, S. M.
Nugent, lord
Benyon, B.
Ord, W.
Bernal, R.
Palmer, C.
Calcraft, J. H.
Palmer, C. F.
Calvert, C.
Pelham, S. C.
Calvert, N.
Philips, G. jun.
Campbell, hon. G. P.
Powlett, hon. W.
Cavendish, H.
Pym, F.
Clifton, lord
Rice, T. S.
Cradock, S.
Ridley, sir M. W.
Crompton, S.
Robarts, G.
Denison, J.
Robinson, sir G.
Duncannon, visc.
Rowley, sir W.
Ellice, E.
Rumbold, C. E.
Evans, W.
Scott, J.
Ellis, hon. G. A.
Sefton, earl of
Gaskell, B.
Smith, R.
Graham, S.
Sykes, D.
Haldimand, W.
Tierney, right hon. G.
Hume, J.
Warre, J. A.
Hutchinson, hon. C. H.
Western, C. C.
James, W.
Whitbread, W.
Jervoise, G. P.
Whitbread, S. C.
Jones, S.
Wilkins, W.
Kennedy, T. F.
Williams, W.
Lamb, hon. G.
Williams, T. P.
Lambton, T. G.
Wilson, sir R.
Lennard, T. B.
Wrottesley, sir J.
Lloyd, sir E.
TELLERS.
Lushington, Dr.
Hobhouse, J. C.
Leader, W.
Russell, lord, J.
Macdonald, S.
PAIRED OFF
Mackintosh, sir J.
Abercromby, hon. J.
Majoribanks, S.
Lemon, sir W.
A second division took place on the original motion: Ayes 130. Noes 73. Majority 57. Leave was accordingly given to bring in the bill.
Mr. Hume
protested against the principle which seemed now about to be established, of driving from the country every unfortunate individual who might happen to have incurred danger by too eager a defence of the liberties of his own country; and against the government, by this
1377
1378
1379
1380
Mr. Secretary Canning
said, that the hon. gentleman had such a winning way, that notwithstanding temporary indisposition which oppressed him, and the determination he had formed, he could not refrain from rising in answer to his solicitations. He did not intend to detain the House at present, but would save himself for the next stage of the bill, at which time he would express his opinions respecting it more at large. But, for the satisfaction of the hon. gentleman, he would say, that, under present circumstances, and especially with that modification which had been introduced into the bill by his right hon. friend respecting it, he did think this bill ought to pass. As for the principle which had been brought into debate; namely, the right of governments to settle the conditions of residence to be allowed or refused to foreigners, he would wave the discussion
1381
The House then divided: For the amendment 69; against it 129; Majority 60. The bill was then read a first time.
WESTMINSTER HALL—NEW COURTS.]
Mr. Bankes,
rose, to move for a committee to inquire into the state of the Courts now erecting in Westminster hall. Whoever brought forward a proposition in parliament, was bound, not only to support his own reasons, but to anticipate those of his opponents. In the first place, the present was only a motion to inquire. If the objections which he took to the taste and order of those buildings should
1382
Mr. Agar Ellis
seconded the motion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
said, he found himself on the present occasion in rather a novel situation. It was usually his lot to have to propose to the House the expenditure of the public money; but now it became his duty to state the reasons for not thinking it expedient to acquiesce in the motion which had been made by his hon. friend. In the first place, he thought the individual by whom the building was executed had been severely dealt with. That gentleman had been called upon to furnish a design, and to carry it into effect, under circumstances which left him little latitude for the display of his taste. It would be remembered, that some years ago, the decoration of the metropolis was not contemplated by the House. Even upon the occasion of a vote for the purchase of that magnificent collection of the remains of ancient art, which was now confessed to be one of the most splendid and valuable ornaments of the country, great opposition was manifested. It was said, that the burthens of the people should be relieved, before the public money should be applied to any such purposes. That feeling had by no means ceased to operate, when the design for the new courts was ordered, and it was therefore too much to assume that either the government, or the individual by whom the design was made, were to be blamed for what had been done under circumstances which prevented them
1383
Mr. G. Bankes,
wished it to be understood, that in voting for the appointment of a committee, he had no intention of casting the slightest imputation upon the professional character of Mr. Soane. Having lived for a considerable time in foreign countries, he was occasionally called upon to shew the public buildings of the metropolis to foreign visitors. In inspecting
1384
Sir James Mackintosh
rose for the purpose of vindicating his legal friends from the charge of impatience which had been made against them by the right hon. gentleman. They had only expressed a desire, that the buildings should be completed for the public convenience. The explanation of the right hon. gentleman had been most satisfactory to him; because it enabled him to give his vote without conveying any imputation on the gentlemen, who had been concerned in the buildings alluded to.
Mr. W. Williams
thought it was possible to find a convenient place for the erection of courts of law, closely adjoining Westminster-hall which would also do away with the right hon. gentleman's objection.
Lord G. Cavendish
was of opinion, that the mere circumstance, admitted on all sides, that the buildings were not approved of, was sufficient to induce the House to enter into the proposed inquiry, not, however, pledging themselves to go any further.
Mr. Hume
hoped that this good at least would spring out of the question before the House—that a rule would be adopted in future, by which no public buildings should be commenced until they had been submitted to a committee of the House. In the present state of the buildings, he did not think it would be prudent to pull them down, because, if once the House began to pull down buildings that were not in good taste, they ought to do the same by the front of the House of Lords; and no one knew where they would stop. With regard to Mr. Soane, it was agreed by all who knew him, that he was a sincere lover of the arts. His public and private reputation were highly honourable; and he therefore regretted that imputations should have been cast upon him. If this motion were pressed to a division, he should certainly vote with the chancellor of the Exchequer against the committee.
Sir C. Long
said, he had long been acquainted with Mr. Soane, who, in his profession, was a man of great merit indeed. All persons differed in matters of taste;
1385
Colonel Trench
insisted, that the building in question was odious and obnoxious, and for this reason he would support the motion.
The House divided: For the committee 43; Against it 30. A committee was accordingly appointed.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Wednesday, March 24, 1824
MONOPOLY OF TEA—EAST INDIA
Lord Clifden
presented a petition from a parish in Wiltshire, for the abolition of slavery, which he stated was signed by all the inhabitants, some of the clergy excepted. The noble lord said, he concurred in the object of the petition, which was, to bring about the cultivation of sugar by free labour; and, as sugar was germane to tea, he took that opportunity of adverting to the enormous enhancement of the price of the latter necessary of life. The extortion occasioned by the monopoly of the East-India Company had been well exposed in the last number of the Edinburgh Review, and he hoped that Mr. Hume, or some other active member of the House of Commons, would speedily take up the subject, and bring it before the notice of parliament.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Thursday, March 25, 1824
IRISH TITHES.]
Lord Clifden
said, he had several petitions to present against the Irish Tithe Composition Act, and all those petitions concurred in one point, that of objecting to any compulsory clause. He might, perhaps, on this subject be permitted to say a few words to their lordships, as he it was who last year had proposed a compulsory clause; and he was now most happy that, on that clause, he had been defeated. The averages, as he
1386
The Earl of Kingston
presented a petition from the parish of Bregaun, against introducing any compulsory clause into the bill; and also a petition from Balley-loch, in the county of Cork, on the same subject. On the question having been there agitated, a meeting of the vestry had been called to take the composition for tithes into consideration. Dr. Woodward, the rector of the parish, had demanded 2,000
l.,
l.,
l.,
l.
l.
l.
1387
The Bishop of Limerick
said, he held in his hand a letter, the contents of which obliged him to think, that the statements made in the petition just read were erroneous. He did not mean to say that the noble lord who presented the petition had any intention to misrepresent the facts of the case; but, from a long knowledge of Dr. Woodward, he was sure that he would not state, nor authorize him {the Bishop) to state, any thing which was not a matter of fact. There was a fallacy in bringing forward 1809 as a standard by which to estimate the value of the parish. That was the first year Dr. Woodward went to reside there, and it was proposed to him by his neighbour, Mr. Montgomery, on behalf of the parishioners, that the doctor should accede to a scheme unheard of before that time in the South of Ireland, and unprecedented throughout the whole of Munster; and this scheme was, to assess the tithes by three farmers of the different town-lands, and each farmer was to pay him his proportion of the town-lands in which he resided, so as to make up the sum of 1,600
l.
l.
l.
1388
The Earl of Kingston
hoped he should be permitted to say a few words, in reply to what had fallen from the right rev. prelate. He was not surprised at the manner in which the right reverend prelate had taken up this subject, as he was confident no act had ever passed that House, which the clergy liked better than this tithe-composition act. It had had the effect of producing a great addition to the income of the church; and that, indeed, not at the expense of the farmer, or of all classes generally, but solely at that of the landlords. On them the whole burthen fell. In consequence of this act, he had now to pay 168
l.
l.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, he knew nothing whatever of the part of the county, or of the individuals mentioned by the noble lord and the right rev. prelate,
1389
1390
The Bishop of Limerick
said, their lordships must be aware, that he had not taken upon himself to impute any illegality or criminality to those landlords who opposed the arrangement intended by the act of parliament. As to the lawfulness of the opposition, he had nothing to say against it, however questionable its prudence might be. However, he certainly had not meant to say any thing to hurt the feelings of the landed proprietors of Ireland.
Lord King
said, that after hearing both sides, he could readily believe both what the noble lord had said, and what the right reverend prelate had stated of Dr. Woodward. But, if this conduct had been practised by a person who, according to the right reverend prelate's description, was the
beau ideal
1391
The Earl of Harrowby
would not follow the observations of the noble lord, but would merely say, that if the Irish tithe proctor was to be brought to the bar, and exhibited there, he hoped he would be accompanied by the stewards of the landlords. As to what had fallen from the noble marquis, he must observe, that in completely exculpating the landlords who assembled at the vestry, from the charge of acting illegally, he had, in the same breath, exculpated the clergyman for proposing to his parishioners the terms he was willing to accept. Whether the terms were unreasonable or not, he was entitled to propose them. The legislature had given to him that right, as well as to the landlords the right of objection. He had always hoped that both parties would concur in carrying the act into effect, for the sake of the peace and tranquillity of the country; but, what he particularly regretted was, that both here and elsewhere, the names and characters of individuals should be made free with, and often when they had nothing to do with the point in discussion. Whether Dr. Woodward asked too little or too much for his tithes, was not a question for their lordships' decision. The House had no concern with it whatever. He called on the House to consider in what a situation they were placed, both as legislators and as gentlemen, in thus judging of individuals in their absence. From his heart he deprecated all such proceedings. He could conceive nothing more cruel or dangerous than thus to signalize individuals. The proctor who had that night been called "the cruel Delaney" would to-morrow go forth in that character to every part of the united kingdom, and being thus stigmatized, might find his life endangered by the opprobium here cast on him. With what feelings could they, as men and as gentlemen, encourage accusations made in this public manner, without the possibility of a public defence? He acquitted the noble earl of any intention to inflict injury on an individual; but he entreated the House to put a stop to so cruel a practice.
Lord Kingston
admitted that it was wrong to bring forward the names of individuals. It was not he who had christened the tithe proctor, "the cruel Delaney" but the rector himself. The man was too well known in the country where he lived, to receive any injury from any thing which might be said of him in that
1392
The Earl of Limerick
said, he was president of a most respectable meeting of Irish noblemen and gentlemen, with whom the proposition for the Tithe Composition bill had originated. He had then thought it would be a good measure, and never meant to encourage a mischievous violation of the right of property. If the landowner was not to be free to consent to the composition, and if land, now tithe free, was to be forcibly compelled to pay tithes, there was an end to all justice. Such a proceeding would be tantamount to a dissolution of the Union.
Earl Grosvenor
expressed his conviction, that the bill could produce no other effect than that of agitating the country, and alluded to the compulsory clause as being peculiarly oppressive and objectionable. It was impossible, he maintained, that the tithe proctor could act in a fair and unprejudiced manner. The very constitution of the bishops' court, forbad it. They had all an interest on the side of the Church; and though he would not now detain their lordships with a description of the manner in which offices were filled in that court, he would remind them, that the judge himself was a clergyman appointed by the bishop, and that all the inferior officers were links of the same chain of dependence.
Lord Clifden
concurred fully in opinion with the noble earl, as to the constitution of those courts, and the partial character of the tithe proctors. It was a notorious fact, that they always concealed what the value of the tithe was, until the crop was taken off the ground; and then, if the wretched peasant resisted their estimate, he was summoned before the bishops' court, where the churchman and tithe owner was himself both judge and jury. It was a gross imposture to talk of such a proceeding as a measure of justice. The situation of Ireland was particularly grievous in this respect, ground down as she was by the demands of the clergy. There
1393
Ordered to lie on the table.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Thursday, March 25, 1824
SOUTH AMERICAN STATES].
Sir J. Mackintosh,
in rising to dispose of a notice of a motion which he had caused to be placed on the order-book respecting the States of South America, hoped that the House would allow him to premise a very few sentences. Since he had given notice of his motion, he had heard two important declarations made by the ministers of the Crown. It would be unparliamentary to mention the occasion upon which those declarations were made, the places in which they were made, or the parties from whom they proceeded; and he must therefore be excused for not being more explicit on those points. According, however, to the best of his recollection and understanding, the second of those declarations did expressly state (he did not affect to give the precise words) that any considerable armament from the ports of Spain, during the occupation of that country by the French army, against the South American States would be regarded as not being a Spanish expedition, and consequently as coming within the principle laid down in the closing despatch of
1394
Mr. Canning
hoped he might be allowed to say a few words upon the present occasion, though such a proceeding might not be strictly regular. His hon. and learned friend was, of course, at liberty to make, or to postpone, or to withdraw
1395
ASSESSED TAXES—REPEAL OF THE.]
Lord Clifton having presented a petition from Canterbury for the repeal of the Assessed Taxes,
Mr. Maberly
said, that the notice on the subject of these taxes, so generally exclaimed against throughout the country, which he had given for the 29th of April, had been received by the gentlemen on the Treasury bench with a laugh; but he nevertheless begged to be permitted to say a few words on it. The chancellor of the Exchequer had shewn his opinion of the equality of taxation. No sooner had the tax on windows been taken off, than the right hon. gentleman had directed the board of taxes to send their surveyors to report on the real value of houses, which would be equivalent to an increase in the amount of 25 per cent on the House tax. The right hon. gentleman seemed to have been particularly unhappy in his financial propositions for the present year. He seemed to have cast about, how best to throw away the public money. As for the 900,000
l.
l.
1396
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he felt himself compelled to say a few words, though certainly not with a view of entering into discussion of any of the various topics which the hon. member had somewhat unseasonably introduced. Of the charge of unmannerly treatment which the hon. gentleman thought proper to bring against him, he was totally unconscious. If there had been any smile on his side of the House, he was unconscious of having participated in it. The smile, if there had been one, was probably excited by the circumstance of the hon. member having selected for his motion a day on which there would be no House; namely, his majesty's birth-day. If the hon. member meant to charge him with having, on this or on any other occasion, shewn any thing like indifference or disrespect in the discussion of any subject connected with the wants or the wishes of the people, it was a charge to which he could not plead guilty. On the contrary, he believed that on every occasion, as well as on that on which the hon. member for Westminster had brought forward his motion, the tone which he had adopted was directly the reverse of that which the hon. member imputed to him. There was not the slightest foundation, in fact, for the charge. As to the notice which the hon. member had taken of the circular letters sent to surveyors from the Tax-office in consequence of instructions transmitted from the Treasury, he had distinctly stated, that the object of the instructions for re-surveying houses was, to afford an opportunity, if the amount of revenue should be raised by a just and equal assessment, to propose a proportional reduction of the tax. His object was, not to screw more money out of the pockets of the people, but, if possible, to save the money of those who were compelled to pay more than they ought to contribute to the revenue, in consequence of an unequal assessment. In this respect, therefore, as well as in that to which he had just adverted, the hon. member had brought a charge against him for which there was not the slightest foundation.
Mr. Maberly
said, that he did not mean to charge the right hon. gentleman with any disrespectful levity. If, however, the right hon. gentleman meant to say that
1397
Mr. Hume
strongly urged the necessity of a repeal of the assessed taxes, as well as a reduction of the duties on silk and wool.
Sir T. Lethbridge
hoped the chancellor of the Exchequer would take into his serious consideration the propriety of relieving the country from that most burthensome assessment, the window tax. If the right hon. gentleman was determined not to relieve the country by repealing the window tax this session, he begged leave to suggest to him a mode of relieving the country without taking off the tax. What he would suggest to the right hon. gentleman was, that he would allow all windows which had been stopped up, in consequence of this tax, to be opened. This would create a large demand for glass; and would thus give employment to a number of useful and idustrious individuals who were now out of employ, without any way interfering with the financial arrangements of the chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. N. Calvert
thought those taxes most objectionable which affected the price of labour, such as the taxes on malt, coals, and candles. If these taxes added 2
s.
Sir Joseph Yorke
said, that if his hon. friend would pledge his word of honour, that he thought a reduction of duty upon the articles he had named would reduce their price to the poorer classes one halfpenny, he would go hand in hand with him in proposing their repeal.
Ordered to lie on the table.
TURNPIKE ROADS BILL.]
Mr. Cripps
rose, in pursuance of the notice he had given, to move for leave to bring in a bill to amend and consolidate the Turnpike Acts. The House would recollect, that a highway and turnpike act of enormous length, the latter containing 150 clauses, were enacted in the year 1822. So complicated were the clauses, that it was essentially necessary they should be explained, to enable magistrates properly to comprehend the meaning of the law. There was at present the greatest difficulty upon
1398
l.,
s.
s.
Mr. F. Lewis
said, he had no wish to take the subject out of the hands of the hon. member, but he should be extremely happy to give him any information which he might be able to communicate. The acts which he (Mr. F. L.) had undertaken to carry through the House, at the express desire of the committee which sat on this subject, contained no less than one hundred and fifty clauses. If they were imperfect, it was not from any want of attention which had been given to the subject; they had occupied his (Mr. F. Lewis's) time and attention during three sessions. He thought the hon. member would fail in his object, if he attempted to combine the Highway acts with the Turnpike road acts. He agreed with the hon. member that it was desirable to consolidate acts for the purpose of shortening them; but the highway acts were themselves extremely long and complicated, and the hon. member would find the difficulty of legislating on this subject greatly increased; by attempting to combine them with the turnpike road acts; Under all the circumstances, he advised the hon. member to withraw his motion.
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, that considerable improvements had been already made in the turnpike laws. One very material alteration was that of consolidating all the laws on the subject into two acts; and it would have been a still further improvement if they had been all comprised in the act of last session. A considerable portion of practical information had been already obtained, in consequence of the inquiries which had been set on foot; and
1399
Mr. Secretary Peel
entirely approved of the advice given by his hon. friend behind him. He should not now enter into any details, but he would recommend his hon. friend to withdraw his motion for the present, on the ground that we should only have, in another year, to be re-enacting a new measure, and that it would be much preferable to wait until we were in possession of additional information on the subject.
Mr. Cripps
said, that as a magistrate and a commissioner, before whom repeated complaints had been made of the inconveniences arising from the present laws, he had felt it his duty to come forward, for the purpose of ascertaining whether the hon. member meant to renew the measure he had some time back introduced to the House. However, as it seemed to be the general opinion that it would be preferable to postpone the subject to some future period, he had no objection to withdraw his motion.
The motion was accordingly withdrawn.
EDUCATION IN IREILAND.]
Sir John Newport
rose for the purpose of calling the attention of the House to a subject of considerable importance, namely, the state of Education in Ireland: and he could assure them, that if he thought it would require any display of eloquence to enforce its necessity, he should most willingly have resigned it to some individual more competent than himself. But he believed that whatever difference of opinion might exist as to the mode of accomplishing the object, there could be but one feeling as to the great and important advantages that must arise from the diffusion of education in Ireland. He should therefore proceed, in the first instance, to state in detail the progress which had been already made; and he should next state the course which it appeared to him advisable to adopt, with a view to render more efficient the funds which parliament had already granted, and the money which had been devoted by private bequests, to accomplish an object of such paramount importance, to
1400
1401
1402
1403
*
l.
l.
l.
*
1404
1405
similarly constituted
1406
Mr. Goulburn
observed, that there was so much of candour and temperance in the speech of the right hon. baronet; he had introduced his most important motion in such a judicious and conciliatory manner, that he only wished that, in returning his thanks to the right hon. baronet, those thanks proceeded from an individual possessing a more prominent station, and higher influence. Most sincerely he concurred with the right hon. baronet as to the importance of the subject; as to the great value of building up a system of amelioration and improvement in Ireland, on the solid foundation of a general system of public education, and by such an exertion placing the humbler classes of the Irish community on a
1407
1408
Mr. John Smith
said, that particular circumstances had brought to his knowledge facts, which it was his intention to have alluded to on the present discussion; but, after the concession of the hon. secretary for Ireland—a concession which he considered a proof of the liberality of his majesty's government—he should not intrude any statement upon the unanimity of the House. However, he must be permitted to express his surprise, that having heard some years ago, one of the most able and eloquent speeches from the right hon. secretary opposite (Mr. Peel), on the necessity of a comprehensive system of education in Ireland, that nothing had followed such an enlightened recommendation on the part of his majesty's government. At least he might be allowed to say, that the fruits of such apian were not visible, in the increasing tranquillity and good order of the lower classes in that country. For his part—and he said so after the fullest conviction—he could not understand how any government could overlook that great duty it owed the public, by not attending to the instruction of the poor. He would endeavour to establish the cogency of that duty, by a very familiar illustration. We felt it necessary, whether for the purposes of interest or pleasure, to prepare our horses or dogs for the services we expected from them, by a previous discipline aad training. Man alone was left in a state of total ignorance, a prey to his own unruly passions; and yet, strange to say, from him, thus abandoned, we exacted a complete obedience to the ordinances of society. Without previous instruction, he was expected to be subjected to our laws, or he was hanged or transported. So long as he had a voice, he would contend, that a government which withheld instruction from the great class of the people, had no right to make them amenable to its bloody and ferocious code. He should have preferred a committee of that House to investigate the great subject connected with the funds applicable to the education of the Irish people, rather than a commission. In a committee, the House would obtain "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." A commission, he feared, would never get at the bottom of the subject. But, before a committee, he must be a most able witness who could conceal the truth, from fourteen or fifteen able members adapting their questions to the objects of the investiga-
1409
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, that though there was no member in that House more impressed with the importance of the question, as it related to the necessity of educating the people of Ireland, yet, after the speeches of the right hon. baronet, and of his honourable friend the secretary for Ireland, he should not have offered a single observation, had it not been for
1410
1411
Mr. Brownlow
said, he was one of those who felt that there was no hope for the prosperity of Ireland, until the most liberal and comprehensive system of educating the great body of its population was acted upon, under the sanction and protection Of his majesty's government. He trusted that few men could be found without the doors of parliament—he hoped not a man had crossed the threshold of that House—
1412
1413
LABOURERS WAGES.]
Lord John Russell,
after having presented a petition from Matthew Phillips, civil engineer and surveyor, for an inquiry into the condition of the labouring poor, proceeded to make his promised motion on this subject. The noble lord said, that a committee had sat upon the subject some years ago, of which committee a right hon. gentleman opposite was chairman. In consequence of the report of that committee, a bill had been brought into parliament, and he was free to confess, that in that bill a right course of legislation had been commenced. But, although a right course of legislation was commenced, yet much remained to be done; and more especially with respect to that which, in his present view, ought to be the principal object of the select committee for which he was about to move; namely, the practice which prevailed in some parts of the country of paying the wages of the labourer out of the poor-rates. This was' a practice in every way so indefensible, that it was exceedingly desirable that some measure should be devised to stop such a vagrant system. One of the resolutions which he should have to propose in that committee was, a recommendation to magistrates not to allow, for the future, any portion of the wages of labour to be paid out of the poor-rates by the overseers. There were two modes of proceeding: that of stopping the evil at once, by legislative prohibition; the other mode was that of carrying into effect the provisions of a bill brought in some time ago by the right hon. gentleman for making a distinction between the industrious and de-
1414
Mr. Secretary Peel
said, he had no wish whatever to discourage the noble lord, in the pursuit of the object which he had in view; but he really thought that the noble lord had better limit his motion to the particular object which he desired at present to attain. The noble lord now proposed an inquiry into the condition of the labouring poor, generally. It would surely be much better to draw a line, which should define the points to which the committee were to direct their attention. For let the noble lord consider into what a number of classes the labouring poor divided themselves. First, there were the agricultural classes: then, there were those connected with mechanics; then, there were the labouring classes, belonging to towns, not manufacturing; then, there were the manufacturing classes of labourers. As the noble lord's motion now stood, the committee must inquire into the condition of all these classes; although it was clear, from the noble lord's own statement, that his object was, the appointment of a committee to inquire into the practice which prevailed in some parts of the country, of paying the wages of labour out of the poor-rates; and to consider what measures might be effectually adopted for the abolition of such a practice. If the noble lord's motion were to be agreed to as it stood, the committee would be overwhelmed with the multiplicity of its business. Now, nothing could be more unwise than to devolve on any committee of that House too extensive a labour. It was, of all others, the worst mode of obtaining any advantageous result. In any case in which the powers of a committee were found to be too limited, it was very easy to extend them. If the noble lord accepted the words which he had suggested, or would substitute others of similar import, he assured the noble lord, that he would not throw any difficulty in his way; and that he would not hereafter object to any extension of the powers of the committee, should such an extension be deemed advisable.
Lord John Russell
said, he had no ob-
1415
GAME LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.]
On the motion of Mr. S. Wortley, the House resumed the consideration of the report of the committee on this bill, and the bill was recommitted. On the second clause, a discussion of considerable length ensued. The clause is as follows:—
"And be it further enacted, that all hares, rabbits, pheasants, [partridges, grouse, black game, heath and moor game, bustards, woodcocks, snipes, quails, landrails, wild ducks, teal and widgeons, and the young and eggs thereof, found in or upon any inclosed land, are and shall be deemed to be the property of the person or persons, body or bodies politic, corporate or collegiate, seized of, or entitled as owner or owners thereof in possession (and not in reversion) to, the land on which the same shall be found; and all hares, rabbits, pheasants, partridges, grouse, black game, heath and moor game, bustards, woodcocks, snipes, quails, landrails, wild ducks, teal and widgeons, found in and upon any stinted pasture, uninclosed common, or waste land, are and shall be deemed to be the property of the lord or lady, lords or ladies of the manor, lordship or royalty within which such stinted pasture, uninclosed common or waste land shall be situated; and it shall be lawful for the person or persons, body or bodies politic, corporate or collegiate, so entitled to the property of the game within their own hands, and for the lord or lady, lords or ladies of the manor, lordship or royalty so entitled to the property in the game on such stinted pasture, uninclosed common or waste lands respectively to demise and let the game to be found therein."
Sir J. Shelley
objected to the clause, that the proprietor of the soil could take or kill game upon it, but could not give the right of doing so to another person.
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Lord Milton
asked whether, if this clause were agreed to, it would preclude the right of making any remarks on the new descriptions of game introduced in it? He observed, in the enumeration contained in the clause, that woodcocks, which were not game by the common law of the land, were made so by the present measure, and that rabbits, quails, and widgeons were also included. This was an enormous extension of the system of the game laws, of which the people of England already complained so justly as a grievance. The object of the bill was, as he conceived, to mitigate that grievance, and to diminish the mass of crime which every man complained of, from one end of the country to the other. It was therefore inconsistent with the object which they professed, to extend the operation of the game laws to a great variety of animals not heretofore included. He objected to the whole clause, and the bill altogether, though he was prepared with no plan of his own upon the subject. On the contrary, what he wanted was, to get rid of legislation. They had already legislated too much on that, as well as on other subjects. By the present bill, they would have half a dozen lords of the manor, where they had but one before. By one of the clauses, every owner of fifty acres of land was to become entitled to all the game which should be found on that land. In other words, it would vest in twenty persons instead of one, that which was not, in its nature capable of being the property of any individual; and thus would increase tenfold all the evils which were found to arise from the game laws. To the principle of legalizing the sale of game, he subscribed; but he did not approve of the mode in which it was proposed to carry that principle into effect, by means of licences. Desirable as it was that the sale of game should be permitted, there was no way in which it could be accomplished, except by taking away all penalties, and ceasing to legislate on the subject.
Sir J. Sebright
agreed with the noble lord, that the operation of the game laws was unpopular and injurious; but he did not agree with him, as to the causes to which he referred those consequences. He disapproved of the laws, because they confined the enjoyment of game to certain privileged classes, and shut the people at large out from it. A man who was not qualified by being the son of a squire, or
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Mr. Stuart Wortley
entreated the House to confine its attention to the subject of the clause before them, and not to suffer questions upon the general principle of the bill to be discussed, until the clause should be disposed of. His noble friend's objection had been, he thought, founded in a mistake, because he seemed to suppose, that there was a penalty attached to killing those animals which were now first to be called game. It was not so; but the property of such animals was vested in the owners of the soil on which they were grown or should be found, and persons unlawfully killing them incurred no penalty, but were liable to the conse-
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Mr. Bernal
wished to know whether, as the bill declared these animals to be the property of the owner of the soil, persons killing them were to be considered as committing a felony?
Mr. Monck
objected to the words "rabbits, wild ducks," and others, describing animals which were not before considered as game. He thought they extended the bill too far; but if they were omitted, he had no objection to the clause.
Mr. S. Wortley
wished the word "rabbits" to be retained, because the common pretence under which poaching was extensively carried on was, that the persons committing it were in search of rabbits.
Mr. R. Smith,
thinking that the notions about game were so loose and unsettled, that people did not regard it in the same light as other property, objected that any other penalty should be annexed to the violation of it than attached to ordinary trespassers.
Mr. S. Wortley
was disposed to give up the words after "grouse."
Mr. Bernal
repeated his wish to know, whether the carrying away such game as was mentioned in the bill was to be considered as a felony against the owners?
Mr. S. Wortley
said, that the penalty of 40
s.
The clause, as amended, was agreed to.
Mr. Goulburn
objected to the clause, which transferred the right to the game from the lord of the manor to the owner of the land, and instanced his own case. He was lord of a manor, in which he had no land, but was in possession of the tithes, and he had hitherto enjoyed, with the permission of the occupiers, the right of sporting over the whole of the manor j but, by this clause, his situation would be materially altered, and that greatly to his disadvantage. He knew the House
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Mr. Bernal
contended, that lords of manors, not being owners of the land, had no right whatever to shoot over it without licence, and that the clause would not materially intrench upon any manorial rights.
Sir J. Wrottesley
wished, that on whatever footing the rights of lords of manors at present stood, they should so remain.
Mr. Alderman Heygate
contended, (hat manors were good property. He had known one purchased from government, which had no other, quit rent but 5
l.
l.
l.
Mr. Cripps
was hostile to the clause; and wished to know, whether the rights of lords of manors, let them be what they would at present, would not be materially altered if the bill passed.
Mr. S. Wortley
defended the clause. He thought that the rights, as they existed at present, subject to impediments at every step, were not worth a farthing; and that, on the whole, he had given to lords of manors more than he had taken away by making the game on unenclosed lands property.
Lord Milton
could not but think that there was a great interference with the rights of property by the present bill; and that, before the House should so interfere, they ought to be assured of the benefits which were likely to arise from it. He should be ready to agree to it, if any great advantage could be shown to be derived from it; but he thought the operation would be prejudicial, for it would increase, instead of diminish, the grievances of the game laws. The committee were sitting to clear the county gaols from the number of criminals with which they were filled under the game laws. That was the great grievance; but by this bill the number of enclosures would be increased, and consequently the number of persons interested in prosecutions, and he feared the number of offenders, would also be increased.
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Mr. Peel
was not prepared to say' whether it would be better to pass the bill with the present clause, or to try the experiment of making the game saleable, leaving the rights of lords of manors as they were; but he wished to see how his hon. friend intended to deal with the new-created rights.
Mr. S. Wortley
held it to be impossible to pass a law making game saleable, and yet leave the right to it in the hands of those who had not contributed to the expense of feeding it.
Mr. Peel
much doubted whether it would not be better for his hon. friend, in the first instance, to limit his experiment.
Sir. J Sebright
agreed with his hon. friend, that to make game saleable, and retain it in the hands of a privileged class, was what the country would not endure.
Mr. G. Bankes
said, that the House ought to pause before they threw open to the great class of the people aright, which, from the numbers, power, and disposition of that class, they never afterwards could recal. He was one of those who considered that a species of property which had been enjoyed for ages, ought not to be lightly dealt with. He did not conceive that the proposed alteration would have the effect of making the gaols less full, or the people more moral, or more contented.
Lord Binning
said, that the state of things under the game laws was so abominable, that any measure which would afford a chance of escaping from that state he was disposed to consider a benefit. If he were convinced, that legalizing the sale of game, without introducing the principle of property, would prove effectual, he would willingly agree to it; but he could not indulge that hope. He could not help saying, that what had fallen from the hon. member for Yorkshire, had gone a great way to reconcile him to the clause.
Mr. Evans
approved of the principle in the bill which gave the property in game to the lords of the manor.
The chairman then put the question on the amendment of the clause, which was carried without a division; it being to this effect—"And in all cases in which game shall be demised or let, the use and property of the same shall be deemed to be vested in the person to whom it shall be so let or demised."
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Sir J. Wrottesley
was exceedingly anxious that the sale of game should be permitted, because he well knew it could not be prevented. He, however, only asked now, that the permissive rights which land-owners at present possessed of appointing game-keepers, &c, should be reserved to them.
Mr. Goulburn
thought the hon. baronet's proposition would defeat the general objects of lords of the manors as to game.
The committee then divided: For the clause as amended, 82. Against it 29. Majority 53.
Mr. Bernal
objected to the next clause, as authorizing, in very many cases, a violation of existing contracts between landlords and tenants, where a right of killing game had been reserved to the latter. This clause enacted, "that it should be lawful for the person entitled as owner in fee of any enclosed lands, the same not being in his own possession, but let to others, tenants or tenant, to pursue, kill and destroy game, over such lands, without asking permission of the owner thereof." He should propose to omit the latter part of it.
Mr. J. Smith
supported the amendment. If tenants were thus deprived of vested rights, some compensation ought to be given to them.
Mr. S. Worthy
thought there might be some force in the objection taken, if it were assumed, that landlords were necessarily litigious. But he could not consent to such an amendment; for it was taking the right of shooting from the landlord, and giving it, in effect, to the tenant, solely. The landlord would be placed by it in a much worse situation than he stood at present. He would venture to say, that if this clause were passed, without the words objected to being retained in it, he should be kept off his own land for all purposes of sporting, for several years to come.
Mr. Alderman Heygate
was satisfied of the monstrous injustice which the clause in its present state was calculated to produce. What security had tenants that landlords would behave in so gentlemanly a manner, or in a way so little litigious, as the hon. member for Yorkshire seemed to suppose? Inasmuch, indeed, as this bill would enable all tenants, whether qualified or unqualified, to sport over the land; in their occupation, so far the landlord would be placed in a
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Mr. Goulburn
supported the rights of the lords of manors, which the bill at present did not sufficiently protect.
Colonel Davies
thought there could be no good in holding out any inducement to tenants to quarrel with their landlords. Tenants might as well be at once permitted to sport over the lands they occupied, to the exclusion of the landlord, as landlords be left in the prejudiced situation which this proposition would leave them in.
Mr. F. Lewis
suggested, that if a tenant were legally qualified to kill game, he ought to be allowed to possess the right, notwithstanding this bill, in any case where it was granted by his lease. The lord of the manor ought to enjoy a concurrent right. A clause, he thought, might be so worded, as to avoid the difficulty at present started.
Sir Shelley
instanced his own case, and argued, that if the clause passed, as it was now worded, he should be ousted of an important right, for which he had paid a considerable sum.
Mr. Bernal
could not consent to any compromise like that proposed by the hon. member for Beaumaris.
Colonel Wood
was of opinion, that if the landlord possessed the right of shooting now, he ought not to be deprived of it. Nevertheless, he supported the amendment, because it was only just to preserve equally the right of the tenant.
Lord Binning
said, that as the question was intricate, it ought to be left for decision on a future day.
Sir J. Wrottesley
maintained, that there was no intricacy at all in the point. He was of opinion, that to retain the words would be virtually to give the landlords a power of altering half the leases in the kingdom; for it was as much a matter of course, where there was no express stipulation in the lease to the contrary, for the landlord to concede to the tenant a right of shooting over the land, as of growing upon it crops of wheat, barley, or other corn, or of fishing in any waters that ran through it.
Sir T. Acland
thought it was necessary to give landlords some protection, otherwise they would not be in a better, but in a worse situation. He was inclined to leave the parties as nearly as possible in the state in which they at that moment
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Mr. J. Martin
said, he had supported the bill in principle originally; but, if this clause were inserted without amendment, he would vote against the measure in every future stage.
Mr. S. Worthy
expressed his readiness to postpone the further consideration of the clause until another day. He was satisfied that it ought to be introduced into the bill in its present shape, in order that justice might be done to all parties. He proposed that the Chairman report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
The Chairman accordingly reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Friday, March 26, 1824
WOOL—PETITION AGAINST EXPORTATION OF BRITISH.]
Mr. S. Wortley
presented a petition from the wool merchants, manufacturers, and others of Halifax and its neighbourhood, against the exportation of British Wool. He hoped that government would, at least, so far relax the system they were about to adopt, as to allow the parties a protection, in order to enable them to compete with the foreign manufacturer.
Lord Milton
, not having hitherto had an opportunity of expressing his opinion upon this subject, hoped to be allowed to say a few words, intimately connected as he was with the county of York and the petitioners. It was true, that great alarm prevailed in the West Riding upon this subject, but he thought it was unfounded, and that no danger would arise from the unrestricted competition proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer. Perhaps, however, it might be right to afford the manufacturers some degree of protection; not because it was required, but because it would quiet apprehensions and give satisfaction. When the petitioners spoke of
1424
SLAVE TRADE PIRACY BILL.]
Mr. Secretary Canning,
in moving the third reading of this bill, said, he was desired by his hon. friend, the member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce) who was unable to attend from indisposition, to state, how much he regretted that he could not be present on this occasion, to express his joy at what he considered the accomplishment of the great object, for the attainment of which he had so long laboured.
Sir J. Mackintosh
said, he could not let the present opportunity pass without congratulating the House and the friends of the abolition generally, on the success which had attended a measure which he had seen so long opposed. Looking back at the difficulties with which its friends had had to encounter, he could not at one time have thought it possible that they should have been overcome in such a comparatively short time. In the early part of his life, he had seen the measure combated, in and out of that House, as one which it would be most dangerous and most unjust to pass. He had seen the slave trade defended as a legitimate trade, and he now lived to find it where it ought to be placed—amongst the number of capital crimes. He had heard merchants advocating it as a source of national wealth, and gallant admirals defending it as a source of naval strength; he had heard it supported and justified as a trade which rescued the negro from the cruelty of his African enemies, and conferred a blessing on him by transporting him from that inhospitable shore, to the paradise of our West-India Islands. One gallant officer, indeed, had gone so far on the subject, and thought the situation of the enslaved African so enviable, as to have expressed a regret, that he himself had not been, born a negro. He remembered to have heard it stated, that the question of abolition was supported only by a set of political incendiaries and religious enthusiasts: but, a set of virtuous men, by perseverance, had triumphed over all these obstacles,
1425
The bill was then read a third time, and passed.
COMPENSATION TO OFFICERS IN
The House having resolved itself into a committee, to consider of the propriety of granting Compensation to officers for losses in consequence of the County Courts bill,
The Attorney General
said, that compensation had been rendered necessary by the bill introduced by the noble lord opposite (Althorp), for the regulation of County Courts. He had no intention to throw obstructions in the way of that measure: but if an important public benefit were to be conferred, it ought not to be at the expense of private individuals. Offices in courts of justice were not saleable, generally, by several ancient statutes; but there were exceptions, and by an act of
1426
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l
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Lord Althorp
wished he had been convinced by the speech of the hon. and learned gentleman, not only because it was unpleasant for him to stand up to oppose a claim for compensation made in behalf of gentlemen with many of whom he was acquainted, but because he was aware, that, with a view to facilitate the passing of his bill, it would be good policy for him to accede to the motion. But he thought this principle of granting compensation for losses indirectly occasioned, could not be too strictly watched; and he thought the House should have more direct precedents than those adduced by the hon. and learned gentleman, before they saddled the country with the burthen. The only precedent in favour of the hon. and learned attorney-general, which could be at all considered as a direct one was, that of the compensation made to the counsel of the court of Marshalsea. But this, if not technically, was substantially a private measure. The compensation was not made out of the consolidated-fund. The officers of the court of Requests, who received more fees is consequence of their extension of jurisdiction, undertook to pay 50
l
1431
l
Mr. M. A. Taylor
said, he was friendly to the principle of the bill, but he could not consent to pass over the rights of individuals. Many of the persons who held offices in courts of justice, had given up professional pursuits for what they considered as freehold places. He was instructed to state the case of one very respectable individual, the county clerk of Durham, who was appointed by the bishop under patent Though that office did not
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l
Sir George Rose
stated the case of the clerk of the plea side of the Exchequer. His office had been executed by deputy: one half of the profits were paid to the deputy, and the principal paid the whole expense of the establishment. According to the best calculations, the bill will reduce the receipts one-fourth; so that it was obvious the condition of this officer would be anything but advantageous. This, he thought, formed no substantial objection to the bill of the noble lord, the object of which was most laudable. Nothing could be more honourable to a man of the noble lord's rank, than to see him thus devote himself to the endeavour of procuring a freer and cheaper administration of justice.
Mr. Littleton
was sorry the noble lord did not accede to the claim for compensation, which appeared to him so just. As to the clerk of the court of King's-bench, the late lord Ellenborough had his mind so fully impressed with the sacredness of that office, that he left it to his son, and left him little else besides the income of it. Nor was it surprising that the late lord chief justice should have felt so confident, after the uniform language of commissions and committees. He reminded the noble lord, that there was never a case in which a bridge was built, but compensation was made to the owner of a ferry, if the ferry was injured by it, even though the bridge was not built on the land of the owner of the ferry. He thought however, that the House should take an early opportunity of revising the patent offices of courts of justice, which were the cause of great injustice to the other officers of the courts. The salaries of the chief justices of the court of Common Pleas and King's Bench were small, on account of the patronage of those offices. It so happened, that the late lord chief justice of the King's Bench was enabled to make a provision for his family, but the present chief justice was left with the reduced salary, and with no means of making any such provision.
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Mr. L. Foster
supported the amendment.
Mr. R. Smith
said, that if compensation were not granted to these officers, they would be placed in a worse situation than if the offices were wholly abolished. In the latter case, they would be able to turn their talents into a different channel, whereas, in the present case, they were left sticking in their offices, while half their emoluments were taken away.
Mr. Bankes
thought, that, in point of principle, it was just that a fair and adequate compensation should be made to the holders of patent offices, whose incomes might be deteriorated by the effect of any legislative measure. Among the cases, however, which had been cited by his hon. and learned friend, the compensation which had been granted in Ireland appeared to him particularly objectionable, on account of the extravagant terms on which it had been made. He considered that case as one of the grossest abuses of the principle of compensation which had taken place even in Ireland; where there had been so many instances of improvident compensations granted at the time of the Union. Admitting the principle to be just that compensation ought to be made to the holders of patent offices, if the value of the offices were affected by an act of parliament, he thought, at all events, they ought not to legislate before it was ascertained to what extent the profits of offices would be diminished, or whether in point of fact, they would be diminished at all. The resolution proposed by the hon. and learned attorney-general was altogether premature. It would be better to allow the aet to continue in operation for twelve months; by which time its effect on the value of these patent offices would be ascertained, and the House would be in a condition to grant a fair and adequate compensation.
The Solicitor General
agreed with the hon. member for Corfe Castle, that the amount of compensation could not be ascertained by anticipation; but, they were now discussing the preliminary question, whether any compensation should be granted? He should be ever ready to give his support to any measure which was calculated to effect a reform and an improvement to the administration of public justice, but it was necessary, at the same time, to protect most scrupulously the rights of property. That House was the asylum for reform; but it was also the
1434
Mr. Abercromby
said, he should be happy if he could bring himself to accede to this principle of compensation, but he had not been able to come to that conclusion. It had occurred to him at first, that there was a reasonable distinction between those offices which were the subject of purchase, and those which were not; but, upon further reflection, he saw no sound reason for that distinction. His hon. and learned friend had said that there was an implied compact between the officers and the public. He admitted that there was such an implied contract, to a certain extent; for instance, they had no right absolutely to abolish an office without compensation during the holder's life, or if a man had been accustomed to receive 2
s
d
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Mr. Sykes
said, he had considered this to be a measure which was calculated to produce the greatest benefit to the country; but, if the principle of compensation were carried to the extent contended for, he believed no advantage whatever would be derived from it. Claims would be preferred by all the holders of places of special jurisdiction throughout the kingdom. At the present time, and under the present circumstances, he thought the claims for compensation perfectly unreasonable. If the measure must be clogged with this principle of compensation, it had better be abandoned; for. under such circumstances it would lose its character with the public. He thought the claim quite unreasonable.
The Attorney General
said, that he meant to construct a clause in the committee on the bill, which would, he was convinced, obviate all the objections; but he could not frame such a clause, unless his present resolution was agreed to. It was merely to pave the way to such an arrangement that he proposed this resolution. As to the objection, that there would be no limit to the number of claims, no offices would be entitled to compensation, except such as were specifically in-
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Mr. Hume
thought the resolution ought to be amended by a declaration, that it should not be lawful for any chief justice, or any other person, to sell or dispose of any of those offices for which compensation was proposed to be given. He wished to know whether it was the intention of the attorney-general to introduce such a clause?
The Attorney-General
said, he certainly did not intend to propose any clause, that would tend to restrict the emoluments of the chief justices.
Mr. Hume
said, that they ought to be paid by direct salaries in a sufficient manner, and not by the sale of offices.
Lord Milton
could not assent to the principle of purchasing the right to effect a great public improvement in the administration of justice. Let the grievance first be redressed, and the inquiry into individual and incidental injuries follow. He agreed with the hon. member for Corfe Castle, that they ought not to legislate on this subject by anticipation. If the suitor was offered a better mode of redress it one court it was natural that the fees of the officers in the other courts should be diminished pro tanto; and, speaking upon principle, if they compensated at all, they should extend the compensation to all officers, and not confine it merely to the rich and powerful, whilst they passed over those who had not equal facilities to make their voice heard in Parliament. But he was opposed to the principle of compensation altogether, for he thought there was no reason why allowances should be made to persons who might happen to be incidentally injured.
Mr. Abercromby
was desirous to know for what length of time these compensations were to be carried on. If his hon. and learned friend should answer, that they would terminate with the life of the present officers, then would arise the question respecting the chief justice; for if the emoluments of these officers should be diminished, he would of course receive proportionally so much less for them when, they fell within his disposal.
The Attorney General
said, it was his
1437
Mr. M. A. Taylor
then proposed the addition of the name of the county clerk of the County Palatine of Durham.
Lord Allhorp
said, that if compensation were to be granted to any man, no one had a better right to it than this gentleman; since a considerable portion of business would be taken out of his court by the operation of this bill.
COUNTY COURTS BILL.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee on this bill,
Lord Althorp
then rose, and proposed an amendment to that part of the bill which provided for the appointment of assessors to the sheriff. As the bill now stood, the right of appointment was vested in the Custos Rotulorum, and the amendment which he meant to propose was, that the appointment should belong to the Crown. This amendment, he proposed, as the best mode of preventing any vexatious contest, wherever a vacancy occurred, red, and an appointment became necessary.
Mr. Sykes
objected to the amendment, and proposed that he appointment should be vested in the-sheriff, or the going judge of assize.
Mr. Secretary Peel
suggested the necessity of having the appointment of the assessors vested in responsible hands. The office of sheriff, annual in the person who held it, was not one to which the
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Lord Althorp
considered the suggestion of the right hon. secretary impracticable. It was the object of the bill to provide for the holding of the sheriffs' courts four times a year in different towns in each county, in such counties as Yorkshire and Lancashire, such an arrangement would give the assessor full employment for the whole year.
The Attorney General
defended the practicability of the suggestion of his right hon. friend. Persons competent to discharge such duties could not be procured under 500
l
l
Mr. R. Smith
suspected that the attorney-general under-estimated the labours of these appointments. He suggested the propriety of the postponement of the clause, in order to allow gentlemen on both sides to give it further consideration.
Mr. Bennet
was favourably inclined to the proposition of the right hon. secretary. He thought it would be destructive of the independence of the bar, to divide seventy places of 500
l
Lord Eastnor
did not see any reason why these places should be filled by barristers exclusively. There were many gentlemen residing in the country whose education fully qualified them to perform any duties which the office might require.
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Mr. Secretary Peel
instanced the appointments of assessors in Ireland, where experience proved, that those who were removed from all local connexion, discharged the duties the most efficiently.
Mr. Hobhouse
said, that having been a member of the committee employed in preparing the bill, he felt, from the first moment, a firm determination not to give to the Crown the appointment of seventy new offices. Indeed, he was much indisposed to open to the bar any increase of offices, in whatever hands the patronage might be placed. But, feeling how much the existing abuses in the administration of the law relative to the recovery of debts stood in need of an efficient corrective, and thinking that the present bill afforded that remedy, he thought it better to damage the integrity of the bar, than allow the existing evils to continue. But, speaking without any inclination to give offence, he did not believe that the vaunted integrity of the bar was in danger by the proposed total of 35,000
l
Mr. Bernal
said, it was necessary that the assistant barristers, or assessors, should have a competent portion of legal knowledge. It was not unfrequently the case that actions for 10
l
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Mr. Peel
suggested, that the Crown ought to be invested with the power of consolidating two or three of the smaller counties; leaving the large ones to be furnished each with an assessor.
Mr. Bennet
entirely objected to the interference of the Crown.
Mr. Hobhouse
adverted to the petition which he had presented against the bill from a number of his constituents, complaining, that if it were enacted in its present form, they would be subjected to considerable inconvenience and a ruinous expense, since they might be compelled to follow their debtors into the remotest parts of the island. He was anxious that some amendment should be introduced into the bill, by which so serious an evil might be averted; and would therefore propose that the following words should be inserted in this clause:—"And that all such actions shall be brought and prosecuted in the district or districts where the debt is contracted."
Mr. R. Smith
suggested the addition of the following words, to the proposed amendment,"—"or where the defendant resides."
Mr. Hobhouse
consented to this addition to his amendment; but, after a few words from the attorney-general, it was agreed that the further consideration of the whole clause should be postponed. On the clause, limiting the debts to be recovered in the County Courts to ten pounds,
Mr. Lockhart
maintained, that the sum was much too small. He wished that 40
l
l
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The Attorney-General
observed, that as the bill was an experiment, and was, in fact, a great change in the law, it would, in his opinion, be much better for the present to confine the sum to 10
l
Mr. Portman
suggested, that the amount of the security which the clerk of the court was called upon to give, ought to be specified.
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Lord Althorp
observed, that as the sums which would be paid into those courts were not likely to be great, moderate security would be sufficient.
Mr. Hobhouse
objected, on behalf of his constituents, to the clause which went to contract the period assigned in the statute of limitation.
The Attorney-General
said, that, in his opinion, the bill as then framed would by no means answer the purpose intended; namely, that of creating courts of summary jurisdiction for small debts. In the first place, it precluded reference, by which the courts of Westminster-hall contrived to get rid of the most perplexing cases of disputed accounts. The process was to be by plaint, instead of the declaration used in the higher courts, which was to be answered by a plea; and both plea and plaint were to be professionally drawn; the suit was to be prepared by solicitors, of course of very low rank and practice, and conducted by counsel. Each case would therefore be open to all the artifices by which causes were perplexed and lengthened in the superior courts, and this by the very lowest practitioners. The bill would be utterly useless in the end, unless the noble lord consented to the introduction of a clause to prevent solicitors and counsel from interfering with the process, and to substitute in their place a power given to the assessors to cross-examine witnesses, and then submit the question to the jury.
Lord Althorp
did not know how he could meet the views of the hon. and learned gentleman, because, as it appeared to him, if parties could not appear by solicitors, they must be required to appear in person. If this were to be the rule, there would be danger of unprincipled plaintiffs suing gentlemen wrongfully, with the certainty, that they would not think it worth while to appear merely for the sake of the fines. However, if the right hon. gentleman could frame a clause to meet this as well as his own view of the subject, he would gladly support it.
Colonel Trench
mentioned a case of two solicitors in one of the counties, who had contrived to swell the number of suits since 1815, from an average of 82 per annum, at which it stood before, to upwards of 400, preying upon their own clients in case of defeat or loss of costs; and out of 1,300 or 1,400 cases, they had not pressed more than 15 to final judgement.
1442
WOOL DUTIES.]
The House having resolved itself into a committee on the Customs acts,
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, that at that period of the night, he should not detain the House for any length of time; but, as it was extremely desirable that the precise nature of the proposition he had to make with respect to these duties should be before the House, and as he could not make that proposition but in a committee, he would avail himself of the present opportunity of so doing. Afterwards, when a bill should have been founded upon the resolution which he had to propose, it would be competent to gentlemen to discuss the subject. What he had then to propose was this; that, instead of repealing the existing duties on wool immediately, or on the 5th of July next, as he had originally intended, the reduction should take place by degrees. He had submitted the proposition to some of those persons who were most interested in the measure, and they considered that it would be the most convenient mode of effecting the object he had in view. He should move, therefore, that the duty of sixpence in the pound should be reduced to one penny in the pound, but in the following manner:—that it should be reduced on the 10th of September next from sixpence to threepence; and on the 10th of December next from threepence to one penny. He should also move, that on the latter day the present prohibition on the exportation of raw wool should be entirely removed, as well as that upon certain articles of wool, which were so loosely manufactured, that they could be easily converted again into wool, and ultimately into cloth. By way of protection, however, to the trade in these articles, he proposed to place a duty of 2
d
d
1443
Mr. Bright
objected to the discussion of this subject in the present state of the House.
Mr. Calcraft
said a few words to the same effect. He was one of those who did not consider it was expedient to concede the exportation of long wool. If, however, the right hon. gentleman thought it was necessary that his resolution should now be carried, he would not press his opposition, because other opportunities would occur for his expressing his opinion.
Mr. Western
expressed an opinion, that the duty proposed on the exportation of long wool was too high, and would therefore operate as a prohibition.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
replied, that if he could have acted entirely as he had wished, he should not have imposed so high a duty; but it was thought, that when a system of laws which had been long cherished with what he confessed he considered a mistaken veneration, was about to be abrogated, something was due to the interests of those who imagined they would be affected by the proposed measure. He therefore thought that it would not be inconsistent with the policy of the government to concede something to the notions of those persons; and for this reason it was, that he had acquiesced in the duty of twopence, instead of the almost nominal duty of one penny. He flattered himself that he had succeeded in allaying the apprehensions which had been entertained on this score, although he was not convinced that there was any reason for them. He believed that, if the long wool were exported without any restriction, no ill effects would result, because that wool would always be cheaper here than any where else; and that if the duty were taken off foreign wool, it would more than compensate our manufacturers for the seeming disadvantage, and prevent the foreign manufacturers from availing themselves of it to any extent. He knew it was said that there could be no great benefit attending this experiment. If, however, it should appear, when the measure came to be put in practice, that the duty did really amount to a prohibition, it would be necessary to apply to the House to remedy that inconvenience. At all events, it was wise in the first instance, to put on a duty even higher than he could
1444
Mr. Western
said a few words in approbation of what the right hon. gentleman had stated.
Mr. S. Wortley
objected strongly, that that description of wool which was the peculiar growth of this country should be exported, in such a way as would enable the foreign manufacturers to compete with us successfully. All the petitions he had presented to the House looked at this subject in the same way. With respect to the duty which was to be imposed, he must take leave to tell his right hon. friend, that he did not look upon it either as a prohibition or as a temporary measure. The manufacturers of wool, his constituents, claimed as a right, that their trade should be protected to that extent, as far as it was connected with the article which was the exclusive produce of England. All that they sought was, a protection equal to the disadvantage they were likely to sustain by the exportation of that article; they said—"Give us this, and we are quite willing to enter into competition with the rest of the world." He understood it was not expected that much raw wool would go out of the country, but that a great deal manufactured into yarn would. The manufacturers were very anxious to have a little more time for the purpose of looking about them. He hoped his right hon. friend would give them six months longer than he had proposed, and not carry his resolution into effect until the 5th of July, 1825.
Mr. Cripps
regretted the discussion of this important question at that time of night. In the county of Glocester long wool happened to be the growth, and not the manufacture of the county. He believed that the whole produce of the country was not more than was necessary for the employment of the artisans engaged to work it up; and this he took to be the strongest argument against the expediency of permitting its exportation.
Mr. W. Smith
objected to discussing this important question further in the present stage, and at that late hour, when, so many members had gone away, under the expectation that the resolution would not be brought forward. Enough had been already said to create alarm, and
1445
Mr. Calcraft
explained why he had commenced the discussion. The question was one of the highest importance, and the public attention ought to be directed to it in the first instance, however late the hour, and however thin the attendance. The object he had in view was, to give the resolution the utmost publicity; and he trusted that enough had been done not to create alarm, but to call attention out of doors to the measure, and to let the public know that the preliminary stage had been passed through. It seemed that the manufacturers were, to a certain degree, satisfied with the change of duty proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer: at least honourable members expressed themselves tolerably well contented on the part of their constituents. It was necessary that the matter should be distinctly understood, and he wished, therefore, to hear from the chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the two-pence per pound was to be considered a permanent or a temporary duty. At first the right lion, gentleman had spoken as if it were to be permanent, yet afterwards, in answer to the hon. member for Essex, he had appeared to intimate, that it was only to be temporary, in order to try the experiment.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
admitted, that no doubt ought to be left upon the point. The footing on which he put it was thus:—if the export of wool were to be allowed, it ought not to be so clogged by a duty as to render the permission inoperative. He proposed the duty of two-pence, because it was fair and reasonable towards those who were interested, and whose apprehensions were excited. It was not his intention to limit the time during which that duty should continue, nor would he undertake to say, that it should be lowered at any given date; if indeed it were lowered at all. What he said was this, that if it should be found in practice that the duty, of two-
1446
The resolution was agreed to.
HOUSE OF LORDS.
Monday, March 29, 1824
SILK TRADE.]
The Lord Chancellor
said, he had been requested to present a petition to their lordships from persons connected with the Silk trade, and against the bill now before their lordships. It was signed by 25,750 persons, all living in London and its neighbourhood, and it expressed their fears, that this bill would be ruinous to them if passed into a law. He could see nothing objectionable in the petition, and had therefore thought it his duty to present it to their lordships.
The Marquis of Lansdown
said, it was not his intention, in the present stage of the bill, to enter into discussion concerning it; but he wished to state, that the opinions which he and several of their lordships had embodied into a report, and laid on their lordships' table, remained unchanged, and were consonant to the views on which his majesty's ministers appeared at present to be acting; though he would have no objection to have changed that opinion, and expressed that change, had he seen any good ground for doing so. As this was the first time the question was brought before their lordships, he wished to take that opportunity of doing justice to one witness who had been examined before their lordships committee; and who was, by his most respectable character, as well entitled as any man, that justice should be done him. The individual to whom he alluded was Mr. William Hale; and he wished now to make it known, that a part of that gentleman's evidence had been purposely omitted, thereby making it appear that he was more friendly to the alteration now proposed than he really was. The mistake arose in this way: on a question respecting the facilities which would exist for the introduction of foreign silks, if certain regulations were dispensed with, Mr. Hale said, that great facilities would in that case exist; and he mentioned the names of several ladies who had availed themselves of certain facilities
1447
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Monday, March 29, 1824
WOOL DUTIES.]
Mr. Huskisson
presented a petition from certain wool growers, praying for a reduction of the duty on the importation of wool, the petitioners conceiving that the tax on the importation of that article was injurious to their interests.
Mr. Bennet
complained of the duty on the exportation of wool having been raised from l
d.
d.
Mr. Curteis
said, the landed interest had been hardly dealt with by that measure. His constituents would certainly have petitioned against it, if sufficient time had been afforded them.
Lord Milton
said, he had been no party to the alteration of the duty on exportation from
1d.
d.
Sir E. Knatchbull
agreed with the hon. member for Sussex, that the landed
1448
d.
Mr. Bright said,
that in consequence of the new bonding system, this measure might operate most unequally on different classes of merchants. Many dealers in the town which he had the honour to represent, had a quantity of wool in bond; others again had a large quantity not bonded. It was incumbent on the right hon. gentleman to make such arrangements as would prevent those who had paid the duty from suffering in consequence of this measure.
Mr. S. Wortley
spoke in favour of the increase of the duty from one penny to two-pence per pound.
Mr. Hume
contended, that his hon. friend, the member for Shrewsbury, was fully justified in asserting, that the chancellor of the Exchequer had been guilty of a breach of faith. At the same time, the right hon. gentleman had been quite right in listening to the representations of all parties interested.
Mr. Bennet
observed, that if the chancellor of the Exchequer had listened to all parties, instead of attending to the remonstrances of only one party, he should not have complained. The right hon. gentleman ought to have obtained full information as to the propriety of the course he was about to pursue, before he commenced it.
Ordered to lie on the table.
COAL DUTIES.]
Several petitions were presented for the repeal of the Duties on Coals.
Mr. Newman
supported the prayer of the said petitions, and hoped that the chancellor of the Exchequer would consent to repeal this unjust and partial tax.
Mr. Bennet
said, that the repeal of unjust taxes ought, from day to day, to be forced upon the consideration of his majesty's ministers.
Lord Milton
concurred in his hon. friend's general recommendation, although he doubted if sea-borne coal was the tax which ought first to be taken off. They ought rather to call for the reduction of those taxes which more generally affected the country at large. He admitted, that the coal-tax was in its origin impolitic; but interest had grown up under it, which might require consideration. At all events
1449
Mr. Grenfell
was of a contrary opinion, as to the general principle of taxation. He had no hope that the tax on sea-borne coals would be repealed this year; but the attention of ministers to it ought to be kept constantly alive by petitions.
Mr. N. Calvert
argued, that no tax could be more unjust than one upon a necessary of life, which fell upon a portion of the country only.
Mr. W. Smith
spoke in favour of the prayer of the petition, contending that the tax was most unjust and partial. The city of Norwich suffered severely from it.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, it had not been his intention to have troubled the House at all on this occasion, but he could not withhold a few observations after the appeals which had been made to him. He could not help thinking that hon. gentlemen were mistaken, as to the grounds on which he had proceeded with regard to coals. First, he had never maintained, nor affected to maintain, that the duty on sea-borne coals was not very unequal in its operation, and pressed with peculiar severity on different parts of the country. It was a duty for which, however, the present generation was not at all responsible. It had existed for a century, and he had always thought, that before any step was taken to remove it, some attention ought to be paid to those interests that had grown up under it. He could not repeal the whole duty on coals, without serious prejudice to the interests of parties who ought to be considered but he had never gone the length of saying, that those interests were such as to render the gradual reduction of the tax impossible. Looking at the various items composing the taxation of the country, he had not thought that the duty on coals was one which ought to be repealed to the whole extent, or prior to other taxes pressing with greater severity. He had proposed the repeal of taxes this year, to the amount of a million, conceiving that, taking the country generally, he was consulting its interests better, than if he had relinquished the whole of the duty on coals. At the same time, it had appeared to him, that the coal tax was not only unjust in itself, but pressed with peculiar severity on a particular part of the kingdom; namely, the metropolis and its neighbourhood, because there the duty was considerably more. He had never
1450
l.
s.
d.,
s.
s.
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, that when the right hon. gentleman talked of relieving the poor of London, he should protest against the injustice of the measure, which went to continue a tax of 6
s.
s.
s.
d.
s.
d.
Mr. Littleton
said, that when the question came to be argued, he should be ready to maintain the justice and policy of the plan of reduction proposed by the chancellor of the Exchequer; or he should rather shew, that the duty of 1s. per ton still continued on inland coals was a shilling too much. Where was-the justice of imposing upon inland coals a tax
1451
Mr. S. Worthy
said, he should be glad to hear his hon friend prove the justice of laying a tax of 6
s.
s.
s.
Mr. Hume
said, he was prepared to state to the chancellor of the Exchequer a mode in which he could conciliate both parties; namely, by taking off the duties as well on sea-borne as upon inland coals. This was the best way of putting them on an equality, and it was a wiser course than to apply six millions annually to buy up three per cents at 95. If he would give up the Sinking Fund he might reduce the whole of the coal tax, and the whole of the window and house tax. For what purpose was the sinking Fund maintained? to support the funded interest. But the funded interest needed no such support. The reduction of the taxes to the amount he had stated, would be received with the greatest satisfaction; and he had no doubt, if all those gentlemen who now spoke so strongly in behalf of their several petitions, would come down and support a specific motion on the subject, the chancellor of the Exchequer would find it perfectly convenient to carry the measure into effect.
Lord Milton
complained of the policy which government had pursued upon this question. They had given up a revenue amounting to 800,000
l.
1452
Sir John Newport
could not agree with his noble friend. His noble friend seemed to have forgotten, that the particular class of the community to which he had alluded had, for nearly a century past, been aggrieved by the unjust and partial operation of the coal duties; and surely his noble friend would not argue, that it was not entitled to relief, because it had submitted patiently for many years to the grievance which had been imposed upon it. He must contend that the chancellor of the Exchequer was only performing an act of justice in equalizing the operation of the coal-duties in all parts of the country.
Mr. Maberly
thought, that the country gentlemen were not dealing fairly with the chancellor of the Exchequer upon this occasion. It was rather inconsistent in those who had supported the system of a sinking fund, now to come forward and tell the adviser of it, that they would not bear the taxes by which that sinking fund was to be supported. It was consistent enough in his hon. friend, the member for Aberdeen, and himself to press for a repeal of taxes, because they had always opposed the scheme of a sinking fund; but as for the hon. gentlemen who now called for a repeal of taxes, after supporting the sinking fund, where, he would ask, was their consistency?
The Chancellor of the Exchequer
said, he felt that, from the manner in which the resolution respecting coals had been carried, the parties interested in them had lost the opportunity which they were fairly entitled to, of stating the objections which could be urged against them. If, therefore, the hon. member for Newcastle wished to move for the re-commitment of those resolutions, he should throw no objection in the way of it, and in the committee the hon. member might bring forward his statement. Thursday was the earliest day that was open, and if the hon. baronet would move for the re-commitment of the resolutions on that day, he should throw no obstacle in the way of the motion.
Mr. Alderman Wood
thought, that when it was considered how long and how unjustly the people of London had been taxed in the article of coals, and the misery to which the poor had been often reduced for want of fuel, no gentleman
1453
Sir M. W. Ridley
said, he had no objection to Thursday as the day for re-committing the resolutions. He begged again to say, that he had no wish to impose any additional tax on inland coals. He only wished the two descriptions of coal to be kept in the same relative situations in which they had hitherto stood.
Ordered to lie on the table.
BURIALS IN IRELAND BILL.]
Mr. Plunkett
rose to move the order of the day for the second reading of the Burials in Ireland bill. The right hon. and learned gentleman observed, that he would not have brought it forward at that moment, if he had not had some reason to flatter himself, from the general opinion which he had collected from all sides of the House on the measure, that there was no likelihood of any material objection being offered to it, nor of any discussion arising that would be at all calculated to pruduce a protracted debate. The House was already aware of the general scope and object of the bill. It related to the burials, in Ireland, of persons dissenting from the doctrines and discipline of the Established Church, with those forms and ceremonies which were peculiar to the religion professed by them. Every one must feel, that this was a subject of extreme importance, as it related to the moral feelings, passions, and prejudices of the great bulk of the population of Ireland; and they must also perceive, that it was a question of the greatest delicacy, because, as it referred to circumstances which must occur in the precincts of protestant church-yards, it would naturally excite the attention of those who felt an interest in the security of the protestant establishment. He therefore approached the subject with a considerable degree of caution, he would not say of alarm; because the measure had been so maturely considered, and so nicely prepared, with reference to both sides of the question, that while it would make the law easy, as to the burial of dissenters, it would not create any just alarm in the minds of those who were connected with the Established Church. But, when he stated that it was a subject of great difficulty and delicacy, he begged to observe, that
1454
1455
1456
1457
1458
1459
1460
1461
1462
may
1463
1464
1465
MILTON'S MANUSCRIPT.]
Mr. W. Williams
begged to put a question to the right hon. the home secretary, with respect to a manuscript lately discovered, and said to be the undoubted work of the immortal Milton. He understood that there was no question whatever as to the genuineness of the work; that it was partly in the hand-writing of Philips, Milton's nephew, and bore otherwise sufficient marks of authenticity. He was desirous, therefore, of knowing how it had been disposed of, and whether it was to be given to the public.
1466
Mr. Peel
said, it was true that the manuscript in question had been found among: some state papers. It was a theological work entitled, "de Dei Cultu," treating of the truths of the christian religion, and no doubt, as far as evidence could go, it was authentic. How the manuscript had come into the situation where it had been discovered, it was impossible to guess; but it had been submitted to the king, who at once had said, that it was fit it should be given to the public. Accordingly, it had been placed in competent hands, and would shortly be printed, under the auspices of his majesty.
BRITISH MUSEUM.]
The House resolved itself into a committee of supply. On the resolution, "That 4,847
l.
Mr. Grey Bennet
begged to call the attention of the House to the distressing account of the state of the various subjects of natural history in the British Museum, contained in an article of the Edinburgh Review, for May 1823. He was sorry to say, that he understood the observations in that article were strictly just. Generally speaking, the statements of the publication in question were very correct; but, so great a clamour had been raised by the remarks to which he had adverted, that he had been induced to inquire into their foundation, and had been informed that they were grounded in fact. By that article it appeared, with reference to the immense collections of sir Hans Sloane, in which the Museum might be said to have had its origin, that those collections were nearly all gone. The birds and beasts, which formed so large a part of these collections, had nearly disappeared. Of nearly 2,000 specimens of mammalia, all had been annihilated. It was the same with the insects. Of above five thousand of the latter, all in a state of the best preservation, not above three or four hundred remained. Of an immense and valuable herbarium, occupying 334 volumes, but fifty or sixty were now visible, and those were covered with dust and penetrated by worms; threatening the whole with destruction. The various gifts of distinguished travellers to the British Museum were all sharing a similar fate. The trustees declared, that they wanted room. Why, then, did they not come to parliament sooner, and make that statement?
1467
1468
Sir C. Long
expressed his surprise, that the hon. gentleman should place such implicit faith in an article published in the Edinburgh Review by an anonymous writer. He was sorry the hon. gentleman had not made more accurate inquiries on the subject, before he repeated that writer's statement in that House. If he had done so, he would have found that, for some of the assertions in the article in question, there was not the slightest foundation; and that others were most grossly exaggerated. And first, with respect to that part of the museum which was derived from sir Hans Sloane. The hon. gentleman stated, that of sir Hans Sloane's large collections, few articles were left. This was certainly the case. But it ought to be recollected, that the most valuable portion of those collections was the insects. Now sir Hans Sloane died in 1752. It was probable, therefore, that above a century had elapsed since the preparation of most of them. But, there were in the museum above 70,000 articles in entomology, comprehending among them duplicates of all that had been in sir Hans Sloane's collection. [Mr. Bennet asked, across the table, where these specimens where?] Where? In the British Museum. Not exposed to public view certainly. He was aware
1469
1470
en masse
l.
l.
s.
l.
1471
1472
1473
Mr. Bankes
said, that all the charges contained in the pamphlet, if examined, would be found, if not altogether false, at least greatly exaggerated. He would read to the House an extract from that publication, in order to shew the degree of credit which was due to the writer. The hon. member then proceeded to read the following extract from the Edinburgh Review;—"To much practical knowledge of zoology, he should unite great zeal for the science, and an intensity of application for years to come, before the national collection can be rendered respectable. In its present state, it is an object of disgust and lamentation to native naturalists, and of ridicule and contempt to foreigners. We have heard hints of a permanent provision for an extra librarian being the cause of the removal of Mr. Children from the antiquarian to the zoological department; but we are unwilling to credit this." The House could not be at a loss to understand the meaning of the writer; he referred to other candidates, and evidently spoke in the language of disappointment.
Mr. G. Bankes
defended the conduct of Mr. Salt, a gentleman who was entitled to the best thanks of the country for the extent of his useful labours.
Mr. Hume
said, that, of 43 trustees, 21 were efficient, comprising the ministers of state now, it was not to be supposed, that those efficient persons, who had so many duties to attend to, gave any of their time to the consideration of the affairs of the British Museum. There were, then, eight members, who represented the Sloane, the Cotton, Harleian, Townley, and Elgin families. To those he did not object; but he did object to this, that there was not one roan of science to be found in the number of those trustees. If individuals were placed over that establishment who would preside over committees, and attend its general interests, he had no doubt but the affairs of the institution would be Ouch better conducted.
Mr. Croker
thought that the library was pretty well managed, but complained loudly of the state of the catalogue. The value of a public library must depend, in
1474
1.
Mr. W. Smith
approved of the institution generally, and thought the objections to the catalogue not very sound. The library was for reference more than for study, and poor scholars, as well as others, might look in the catalogue when there, without going to the expense of purchasing one.
Mr. Croker
said, that was certainly true; but, if the poor scholar could furnish himself with a catalogue at a low rate, he would not have to waste his valuable time by going to the Museum to discover that the book which he sought for was not to be found there.
Mr. Bankes
thought, that none of the objections, either to the institution or the management of it, were well founded. As to the inconvenience and difficulty of admission, that could hardly be alleged, seeing, that in the course of last year, it had been visited by 100,000 persons. As to the want of room, it was true that they had not enough for all the subjects which were presented, and had been obliged to build for the reception of the king's library. But, if gentlemen would only consider that these collections, after the completion of the new buildings, would cover a space rather larger than Han-
1475
Mr. G. Bennet
expressed a hope that no niggardly principle would prevent the trustees from coming to parliament to ask for two or three hundred pounds, if necessary, in order to procure scientific persons to preside over the different departments. Sir Joseph Banks and sir Humphrey Davy had been named as specimens of the talent with which the different departments were filled; but of those gentlemen one was dead, and the other was far from being an instance of the general talent with which those situations ought to be filled.
Mr. R. Smith
hoped it would be generally understood, that nothing which had occurred that evening ought to induce the trustees to consider themselves precluded from coming to parliament for any further sum which they might consider necessary.
Sir C. Long
was quite disposed to concur in the hope expressed by his hon. friend. With respect to what had been observed, as to the sum paid to Mr. Salt for the sarcophagus, he could only state, that Mr. Bingham Richards, the agent of that gentleman, had been asked, whether he would be satisfied with 2,000
l.
l.
1476
Mr. H. Gurney
said a few words, which were inaudible, and to which.
Sir C. Long
replied, that he wished by no means to be understood to say, that the trustees would not very willingly, under the authority of the House, revise their decision as to Mr. Salt's remuneration.
The resolution was agreed to.
EDUCATION OF THE POOR IN IRELAND.]
On the resolution, "that 22,000
l.
Mr. Hume
said, that although the full discussion which the subject to which this vote related had undergone on a former evening, rendered it unnecessary to go into it at any length, he could not refrain from expressing a hope, that something would be done speedily upon a matter of so much importance. He was aware that great difference of opinion prevailed on this subject; but he was sure almost all persons agreed, that it was highly desirable to educate the Catholic and Protestant children in the same schools. He doubted, however, the possibility of effecting the object, the great mass of the poor children being Catholic, unless the funds destined for the purpose should be placed, not exclusively under the direction of Protestants, but even the larger part under the control of Catholics. This opinion was supported by the undeniable fact, that a great number of Catholics refused to receive the benefits of education upon the terms on which they were tendered to them. He had the authority of a Catholic bishop for stating, that in the thirty-six parishes of his diocess, there were 10,000 children, all of whom were fit to go to school, but were not able to pay, and who were yet restrained from availing themselves of the schools which
1477
Mr. J. L. Foster
rose, for the purpose of making a few observations respecting the effect which had been produced in the education of the poor in Ireland by the Kildare-street society. The hon. gentleman referred to the fourteenth report of that society, which, he said, exhibited an interesting comparison between the state of education before the establishment of that society and since it had been in operation. Notwithstanding the number of schools which existed previously, such was their nature, and such the method in which they were carried on, that, so far from education being a blessing, it was one of the main springs of all the evils that prevailed. The Irish peasant was not the victim of ignorance, but of misdirected education. One of the most pernicious practices was, the introduction of books of a dangerous tendency into the schools. Many persons employed their capitals and their industry, in disseminating books purporting to be the histories and adventures of rebels, traitors, and enterprising malefactors. The object of the Kildare-street society had been to check this evil practice; and they had so far succeeded, with the munificent assistance of parliament, that the same persons who had formerly been employed in this trade, were now engaged in furnishing the same schools with books of a more useful tendency. The society, feeling that to provide proper masters for the various schools connected with them was another most important point, had established a model school in Dublin; which, beside the local good which it did in educating 300 of the children of the artizans of Dublin, pre-
1478
l.
l.
Sir J. Newport
regretted that this subject had been introduced, before the committee appointed by the House had made their report. He had abstained from expressing his opinion until that report should have furnished a more certain basis upon which a conclusion might be formed. Some points of the hon. gentleman's
1479
Mr. Hutchinson
regretted, for causes as well known to the hon. gentleman as to himself, that this topic however ably treated, had been touched upon at this time. He would go the whole length with the hon. member in believing, that the Kildare-street society had done a great deal of good, and meant to do still more. The committee must not conceal from themselves, that the object pursued on this occasion was the education of a Catholic population. Any indisposition on the part of the Catholics to have their children educated together with Protestants he should exceedingly deprecate. At the same time, if the objection was a conscientious one, he really thought that the joint education of Protestants and Catholics, or a scriptural education, as it had been termed, ought not to be made a condition of such a grant of the public money as that now proposed.
Mr. North,
in a maiden speech, then addressed the committee. He said, the hon. members opposite had objected to his hon. friend, that he had introduced this subject of discussion, but if he knew his countrymen, and be thought he did know them, they would wish, whatever might be given to them, or whatever might be withheld from them, that it should not be done in silence and secresy, but be most amply discussed. He thought the House might trust to their intelligence, for there was not a more intelligent people; the House might trust to their candour, for no people were more candid, and nothing would displease them so much as that middle course of neither giving nor withholding. The House should proceed steadily forward. The gentlemen opposite objected to discussion, not to angry or furious discussion, but to the calm, and he would say, cold discussion of his hon. friend, when compared with the magnitude of the subject. Suppose the statement had not been made, it would have gone forth to the world, that the Kildare society had been attacked, and that a member of the society had been present, and had not defended it. The Irish were a suspicious people; and were jealous that that which was done with regard to them should not be done
1480
1481
1482
1483
1484
Sir J. Newport,
in explanation, stated, that he never intended to cast any imputation upon so respectable a body as the Kildare-street society, who had certainly done much in the cause of the education of the Irish poor.
The resolution was agreed to.
ADDENDUM.
WELSH JUDICATURE BILL.]
The following is a more correct report of Mr. Allen's Speech, on the 11th of March, on the Welsh Judicature Bill, than the one given at p. 926.
Mr. Allen
said:—I rise, Sir, to object to the present bill, partly because I consider all its provisions trivial, useless, or pernicious; but principally because its main object appears to be, not so much to improve the judicature, as to extinguish a question of far greater importance, the expediency of maintaining or abolishing the Welsh judicature.
1485
1486
1487
1488
l.
INDEX TO VOL. X. NEW SERIES.
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Abolition of Slavery, 703, 1046, 1215
Address on tie King's speech on opening the Sessions, 1
Amelioration of the condition of the slaves in the West Indies, 1046
Appeals; Hearing of, 640, 830
Austrian Loan Bill, 871
B
Bounties on Irish Linens, 706
C
Clerk of Parliament, 829
F
Flogging in the Army, 1216
G
Game Laws, 224, 266, 444
I
Ireland, Survey of, 935
Ireland; Trade of, 106
Irish Linens; Bounties on, 706
Irish Tithes, 1385
K
King's Speech on opening the Session,
L
Linens; Bounties on Irish, 706
M
Monolopy of Tea,1385
Mutiny Bill, 1216
P
Parliament; Clerk of, 829
S
Silk Trade, 1446
Sinecure Places, 151
Slavery; Abolition of, 703, 1046, 1215
South America; Independence of, 105, 705, 770, 970
Survey of Ireland, 935
T
Tea Monopoly, 1385
Tread Mill, 152
INDEX TO DEBATES IN THE HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Abercomby, Mr.; his Complaint against the Lord Chancellor, 571
Abolition of Slavery, 1011, 1331
Address on the King's Speech on opening the Session, 45, 86
Alien Bill, 1332
Amelioration of the condition of the slave population, 1064
Army estimates, 271, 366
Artizans, 141
Assessed Taxes, 1095
Austrian Loan, 101, 437, 497
B
Bank of England Balances, 226
Bank of England Notes, 123
Bankrupt Laws, 213
Barracks, 861
Bear Baiting, 131, 368, 486
Beer and Malt duties, 1013
Brandies; Duties on foreign, 945
British Museum, 635, 1466
Burials; Roman Catholic, 103, 1453
C
Caledonian Canal, 630
Canada, 955
Catholic Disabilities, 252
Catholic Charities, 847
Cattle III-treatment bill, 130, 865
Chancery; Delays in the Court of, 372, 450
Chetwynd, Mr.; Conduct of, 504
Coal Duties, 270, 301, 1448
Coinage, 445
Combination Laws, 141
Commitments by Magistrates, 646
Consuls Abroad, 101
Consolidation of the Criminal Law, 1062
County Courts regulation bill, 210, 303, 728, 1437
Criminal Law; Consolidation of the, 1062
Crown; Demise of the, 722
D
Decimal scale; Adaptation of the Coinage to, 445
Dominica, 953
Dry-rot in Ships, 166
Distilleries, 1009
Duties; Reciprocity of, 154
E
Edinburgh; Stale of the representation of, 455
Education in Ireland, 1399
Exchequer; Deputy remembrancer of, 165
Excise Duties, 451
Excise Licences, 651
F
Finances of the country; State of, 304
Fisheries of Scotland, 645
Flint, Charles; Case of, 504
Flogging in the army, 927, 1031
Foreign Policy, 102
French pecuniary indemnity, 721
G
Game laws amendment bill, 187, 902, 1329, 1415
Gaol laws amendment bill, 241, 755
Gold Coast; Settlements on the, 962
Gospel; Propagation of the, in the Colonies, 964
Guards; Stock-purse of the, 1209
I
Impressment of Seamen, 1220
Imprisonment under the Vagrant act, 106
Ireland; Education in, 1399
Ireland; Protestant Church in, 729
Ireland; Church rates in, 496
Ireland; Conduct of Police Officers, 137
Ireland; Growing crops in, 155
Ireland; Linen trade of, 452, 943, 1216
Ireland; Burials in, 103, 1453
Ireland; Stale of, 119
Ireland; Education of Catholic poor in, 837, 1476
Ireland; Survey and valuation of, 870
Irish Miscellaneous estimates, 1293
Irish Bankers, 944
Irish Clergy Residence Bill, 183
Irish Mining company, 645
Irish Protestant Charter schools, 1043
J
Juries laws consolidation bill, 247
Jurors qualification bill, 124
K
King's speech on opening the Session, 45, 86
L
Labourers wages, 1413
Legacy duties, 134
Linen trade of Ireland, 452, 943, 1309
Lord Chancellor; Mr. Abercromby's complaint against, 571
M
Machinery, 141
Magistrates; Commitments by, 646
Magistrates; Recovery of penalties before, 212
Malt duties, 1013
Man, Isle of; Criminal Judicature of, 215
M'Can, Mr.; Case of, 137
Milton's manuscript, 1465
Mutiny bill, 766, 927, 1031
N
Navy estimates, 167, 296
Newfoundland Fisheries bill, 1331
Neutrality between France and Spain, 190
Newspapers sent to the colonies, 501
O
Olive Guelph, styling herself Princess of Cumberland, 452
Ordnance estimates, 525
Ordnance; Clerk of the, 861
P
Perrott, H. D.; his petition, 1198
Penitentiary at Milbank, 636
Poyais emigration, 727
Postage rates, 501
Prisons, 1283
Public buildings in Westminster, 623,632 1283, 1381
Q
Qualification of Jurors bill, 124
R
Reciprocity of duties, 154
Recovery of penalties before magistrates, 212
Reform of parliament, 1206
Renewal of offices on the demise of the crown, 722
Revenue inquiry, 449
Ribbon men and lodges in Ireland, 885
Roman Catholic burials, 103
S
Scotch distilleries, 445
Scotch fisheries, 645
Shipping interest, 154
Ships; Dry rot in, 166
Sierra Leone, 962
Silk trade, 371, 719, 731, 780, 800, 849, 869, 1221, 1285, 1290, 1312
Sinking Fund, 936
Slavery; Abolition of, 1011, 1064
Slave trade piracy bill, 1424
Small debts, 210, 303, 728
South America, 157, 708, 752 1393
Spain, 102, 190, 1232
Spirits intercourse, 445
Stock-purse of the Guards, 1209
Sugar duties, 782
T
Taxes; Remission of, 936
Tithe composition bill, 729, 851
Tobacco duties, 369
Tread Mill before trial, 138, 241, 755
Turnpike-roads bill, 1397
V
Vagrant act, 86, 106
Usury laws repeal bill, 157, 551
W
Welsh Judicature bill, 926, 1483
Weights and measures, 450
West-Indies; Slave population of, 1064, 1423, 1442, 1447
Window tax, 652
Wine duties, 226, 1310
Wool tax, 267, 370, 650, 751.
INDEX.
INDEX OF NAMES—HOUSE OF LORDS.
A
Aberdeen, Earl of, 883
B
Bathurst, Earl, 705, 1046, 1061
C
Calthorp, Lord, 830, 1006
Clifden, Lord, 884, 1385, 1392
D
Darnley, Earl of, 45, 444, 641, 836
Downshire, Marquis of, 935
E
Eldon, Earl of,
see
Ellenborough, Lord, 885, 1003
G
Grosvenor, Earl, 151, 224, 444, 703, 779, 829, 1215, 1216, 1392
H
Harrowby, Earl of, 836, 1391
Holland, Lord, 30, 779, 834, 871, 1061
K
King, Lord, 640, 645, 880, 1390
Kingston, Earl of, 1386, 1388, 1391
L
Lansdown, Marquis of, 15, 105, 106, 152, 705, 706, 776, 778, 970, 1008, 1388, 1446
Limerick, Earl of, 1392
Limerick, Bishop of, 1387, 1390
Liverpool, Earl of, 22, 151, 152, 153, 643, 705, 706, 707, 777, 779, 829, 832, 877, 992, 1215
Lord Chancellor Eldon, 1446
Lorton, Viscount, 11
R
Roseberry, Earl of, 1007
S
Somers, Earl, 5
Spencer, Earl, 1215
Suffield, Lord, 266
INDEX OF NAMES—HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A
Abercromby, hon. James 104, 215, 219, 418, 455, 481, 571, 621, 840, 889, 1434, 1436,
Acland, Sir Thomas, 270, 968, 1422
Allen, J. H, 926, 1483
Althorp, Viscount, 119, 156, 219, 255, 647, 688, 729, 885, 893, 969, 1029, 1044, 1374, 1430, 1437, 1438, 1441.
Ashurst, W. H, 648
Attorney General (Sir John Copley) 221, 223, 512 597, 649, 728, 866, 1425, 1435, 1436, 1441
B
Bankes, Henry, 623, 632, 1283,1284, 1381, 1433, 1473, 1474
Bankes, George, 868, 1383, 1473
Baring, Alexander, 164, 166, 236, 302, 337, 342, 368, 440, 499, 503, 569, 690, 749, 762, 784, 814, 849, 1157, 1221, 1229, 1285, 1287, 1291, 1321, 1322
Baring, Sir Thomas, 628, 636, 731,
Benett, John, 794, 919, 1011
Bennet, Hon. H. G. 364, 624, 630, 633, 650, 755, 898, 952, 954, 958, 964, 966, 1012, 1042, 1466, 1475
Bernal, Ralph, 176, 286, 452, 634, 729, 1214, 1418, 1420
Binning, Lord, 445, 470, 1420
Blair, James, 1183
Bourne, Right Hon. Sturges, 204, 519
Bridges, Alderman, 744, 868
Bright, Henry, 84, 298, 369, 453, 522, 629, 794, 959, 1288, 1448
Brougham, Henry, 53, 354, 423, 587, 726
Browne, Dominick, 842, 871
Brownlow, C., 943, 1411
Burdell, Sir Francis, 123, 139
Butterworth, Joseph, 823, 966, 969
Buxton, Thomas Fowell, 782, 867, 1112, 1312, 1325
C
Calcraft, John, 104, 161, 296, 299, 350, 562, 792, 861, 1310, 1312, 1318, 1320, 1443, 1445
Calvert, N. 1397
Canning, Right Hon. George, 70, 90, 101, 102, 181, 203, 263, 429, 441, 442, 500, 584, 708, 724, 1091, 1194, 1265, 1380, 1394, 1424
Cavendish, Lord George, 780, 1228
Chancellor of the Exchequer (Right hon. Fred. Robinson), 85, 136, 161, 166, 230, 258, 304, 341, 345, 353, 438, 441, 449, 498, 502, 503, 624, 628, 631, 633, 634, 635, 639, 675, 722, 726, 734, 743, 753, 944, 949, 954, 1020, 1226, 1284, 1288, 1309, 1311, 1317, 1321, 1324, 1382, 1396, 1442, 1443, 1445, 1449, 1452
Chetwynd, George, 511
Clark, Sir George, 167, 169, 175, 297, 298, 299, 300, 450, 538, 1204
Cockburn, sir George, 177, 180, 299, 301, 1202
Coffin, Sir Isaac, 346, 538, 539, 798, 1204
Colborne, N. R., 635, 919
Cole, Sir C, 246, 927
Cooper, Bransby, 158
Copley, Sir John,
see
Courtenay, William, 213, 270, 764, 868
Cripps, Joseph, 1027, 1397, 1399, 1419, 1444
Croker, John Wilson, 121, 122, 626, 636, 1204, 1473
Curteis, E., 744
Curwen, John Christian, 215
D
Daly, James, 47
Davenport, D., 157, 737, 751, 823
Davies, Colonel, 170, 295, 545, 638, 639, 721 945, 952, 1040, 1422
Davis, Hart, 369
Dawkins, Henry, 929, 1043
Dawson, George, 111, 185, 731, 839, 870
De Crespigny, Sir William, 283
Denman, Thomas, 504, 517, 524, 648, 726
Denison, W. J., 650, 1026
Douglas, Keith, 1156
E
Eastnor, Lord, 1438
Ellice, Edward, 234, 342, 346, 371, 719, 737, 792, 823, 826, 849, 869, 1010, 1222, 1287, 1328
Ellis, Charles, 1134
Ellis, Agar, 260, 1205, 1309
Evans, William, 749, 1420
F
Fergusson, Sir Ronald, 1037, 1218
Fitzgerald, Vesey, 121, 841, 1218
Foster, J. L., 1477
G
Gascoyne, Isaac, 283
Gilbert, Davies, 212, 365, 449, 450, 542
Gipps, George, 688
Gooch, Thomas, 1264
Gordon, R., 282, 637, 789, 962, 1324
Goulburn, Henry, 103, 121, 122, 137, 156, 183, 186, 254, 496, 541, 546, 730, 838, 851, 868, 871, 887, 963, 967, 1044, 1298, 1301, 1302, 1406, 1418
Grant, A., 799
Grant, C., 843, 1044, 1307
Grattan, James, 104, 137, 157, 252, 266, 837, 858
Grenfell, Pascoe, 124, 161, 226, 302
Gurney, Hudson, 239
H
Haldimand, William, 745, 747, 827, 1283, 1327
Hamilton, Lord Archibald, 1319
Hardinge, Sir H., 525, 533, 536, 537, 539, 542, 544, 545, 548, 550, 551, 769, 864, 930, 932, 1040, 1214
Heron, Sir Robert, 489, 551, 568, 649, 722, 727
Herries, J. C., 439, 543
Heygate, Alderman, 556, 781, 828, 1421
Hill, Rowland, 45
Hill, Sir George, 1307
Hobhouse, John Cam, 86, 244, 256, 287, 295, 303, 546, 652, 655, 702, 862, 934, 936, 942, 1206, 1313, 1343, 1439
Holford, George, 637
Horton, Wilmot, 728, 953, 956, 959, 962, 963, 965, 1331
Hume, Joseph, 85, 98, 101, 106, 117, 121, 122, 134, 141, 158, 166, 170, 179, 184, 226, 231, 249, 259, 274, 295, 296, 297, 300, 360, 366, 437, 439, 440, 441, 443, 451, 452, 497, 498, 501, 502, 520, 529, 534, 536, 537, 538, 540, 543, 544, 549, 625, 628, 638, 645, 646, 647, 650, 698, 725, 727, 741, 766, 770, 782, 798, 827, 849, 859, 865, 930, 938, 950, 953, 955, 959, 962, 963, 964, 966, 1009, 1024, 1031, 1039, 1043, 1198, 1204, 1209, 1220, 1228, 1286, 1291, 1295, 1296, 1299, 1301, 1302, 1305, 1331, 1376, 1384, 1451, 1473, 1476
Huskisson, Right Hon. William, 147, 154, 155, 161, 566, 736, 780, 782, 786, 793, 794, 800, 828, 849, 868, 870, 1229
Hutchinson, Hon. C. H., 265, 899, 1219, 1371, 1479
J
James, William, 101, 102, 140, 629
Jones, John, 927
K
Kennedy, Thomas, 445, 479, 953
Knatchbull, Sir E., 242, 252, 647
L
Lamb, George 250
Lamb, William, 1365
Leake, William, 450
Lethbridge, Sir Thomas, 99, 243, 747, 1288, 1397
Lewis, Frankland, 796, 1398
Leycester, Ralph, 126
Littleton, E. J. 86, 112, 302, 518, 741, 826, 1260, 1328, 1432, 1450
Lockhart, J., 128, 134, 423, 909
Long, Right Hon. Charles, 450, 630, 636, 1468, 1475
Lord Advocate of Scotland (Sir W. Rae)
Lushington, Dr., 251, 721, 867, 960, 1169
M
Maberly, John, 343, 454, 500, 550, 551, 647, 780, 1013, 1029, 1219, 1452
Maberly, W. L., 127, 165, 179, 239, 555, 741, 943, 1028, 1395
Mackintosh, Sir James, 157, 222, 611, 627, 752, 1222, 1230, 1278, 1358, 1384, 1393, 1424
Manning, William, 123, 233, 797, 1178
Martin, John, 165, 503, 1423
Martin, Richard, 130, 131, 133, 486, 495, 867, 893, 933
Martin, Sir B., 297, 298
Milton, Lord, 370, 629, 696, 920, 1416 1419, 1423, 1436, 1448, 1451
Monck, J. B., 240, 651, 774, 968, 1028, 1418
Moore, Peter, 720
Mundy, George, 744
N
Newport, Sir John, 103, 156, 184, 249, 261, 478, 496, 541, 542, 546, 645, 729, 731, 740, 839, 871, 940, 945, 1044, 1297, 1399, 1452, 1478
Nolan, Michael, 450
North, J., 1479
Nugent, Lord, 102, 190, 207
O
Onslow, Mr. Serjeant, 163, 215, 551
P
Palmer, Fyshe, 651
Palmer, Col. Charles, 93
Palmerston, Viscount, 271, 293, 368, 774, 933, 1038, 1041, 1212
Parnell, Sir Henry, 232, 449, 451, 645, 847, 850, 944, 1218, 1305
Pearse, Henry, 236
Peel, Right Hon. Robert, 84, 104, 112, 118, 129, 131, 139, 140, 218, 241, 246, 247, 260, 403, 491, 516, 518, 605, 637, 650, 727,739, 759, 823, 842,
Peel William, 490
Pelham, C., 1371
Philips, George, 740, 1286, 1326
Plunkett, Right Hon. w. C., 840, 890, 1453
Portman, E. B., 746, 1440
R
Rice, Spring, 870, 1045, 1216, 1296
Ridley, Sir Matthew White, 302, 629, 630, 637, 922, 968, 969, 1044, 1398, 1450, 1453
Robertson, Alexander, 154, 267, 364, 551, 720, 797, 938
Robinson, Right Hon, Frederick,
see
Rose, Sir G. H., 1184, 1432
Ross, C., 907
Russell, Lord John, 469, 1232, 1282, 1368, 1413
S
Scarlett, James, 452, 593, 619
Sebright, Sir John, 569, 1416
Shelley, Sir John, 190, 903, 1415
Smith, John, 160, 211, 214, 347, 490, 631, 686, 743, 772, 840, 931, 939, 1011, 1300, 1408
Smith, William, 100, 270, 632, 694, 751, 775, 867, 1188, 1444, 1474
Smith, R., 1433, 1438, 1475
Solicitor General (Mr. Wetherell), 515, 590, 1433
Speaker, The (Right Hon. Charles Manners Sutton,)
Stuart Wortley, J. A., 140, 187, 190, 370, 464, 650, 902, 923, 1417, 1418, 1419, 1421, 1423, 1443, 1451
Sumner, Holme, 510, 646, 649, 763, 797
Sutton, Right Hon. Charles Manners,
see
Sykes, Daniel, 701, 928, 1220, 1435
T
Taylor, Michael Angelo, 1431
Taylor, Watson, 1012, 1175
Tennyson, Charles, 625
Thompson, Alderman W., 269, 650, 1289, 1318
Tierney, Right Hon. George, 599, 726, 1223
Trench, F. W., 186, 453, 542, 871, 1217, 1441
V
Vivian, Sir H., 1033
W
Wallace, Thomas, 448, 820, 1318
Warre, J. A., 169, 442, 867, 1310, 1373
Western, C. C., 93, 124, 128, 764,1443
Wetherell, Charles, 515,
see
Whitmore, T., 688, 798, 826, 1228,
Wilberforce, William, 1144
Williams, John, 372, 434
Williams, William, 619, 633, 634, 1298, 1319, 1320, 1465
Wilson, Sir Robert, 521, 770, 1193, 1247, 1278
Wilson, Thomas, 226, 267, 569, 741, 828, 969, 1193
Wodehouse, E., 249, 285, 1025, 1026
Wood, Alderman Matthew, 245, 269, 301, 765, 851, 1293, 1318, 1452
Wood, Colonel, 243, 771
Wrottesley, Sir John, 159, 269, 298, 345, 446, 520, 742, 1419, 1421, 1422
Wynn, C. W. W., 521, 560, 616, 746, 747, 927, 1327, 1356
Y
Yorke, Sir Joseph, 1397
END OF VOL. X.